# Parenting With Love and Logic?



## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I started reading "Parenting With Love and Logic" and, I have to say, I am not impressed, for a variety of reasons.

For some reason, the board software won't let me search this forum for the book title, so I thought I would start a thread on it.

I just wanted to see what other GD'ers thought of it. I haven't gotten very far into it, as I said - I've skipped around and read maybe 15 pages? But here are the problems I'm having :

1. Can't you take natural consequences a little too far? I don't intervene MUCH when my child is playing with other child, but I do intervene if he's being a bully (he's not even 2, so this happens frequently... LOL).
2. The general tone of the book seems rather harsh to me. At one point the author states that parents who don't establish (their version of) strong boundaries have brats.
3. I don't care for all of the religious references, seeing as how I am not religious and am not a Christian (comparing parenting to the way that god parents us is completely lost on me).

That's all I can think of right now...

Is this book worth reading?

TIA.


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## goldrose (Jan 14, 2003)

You bet!!

I have been using love and logic techniques for over a year now (I have a 3 y.o. and 2 y.o - both girls). While I have to say that I generally have well-behaved children no matter what parenting method I'd choose, Love and Logic is by far the most awesome way of parenting. Harsh you mentioned? No way. Firm, but loving. I'll give you two examples from my personal experience -
(p.s. I have only read the book "love and logic magic for early childhood" and yes, it IS magic!)

1) One evening my cute little 3 year old was fooling around while I tried to get her into pajamas. I said what I always say when she does something not right - "Uh-oh, this is so sad" From her training with this phrase, since she knows that what comes next is "looks like a little bedroom time. you're welcome to come out when you are ready to act sweet. I love you." she has become accustomed to responding: "No! Ready! Ready!" (When I say, "ready for what?" she says "ready to act sweet!") Well, this time, when she said "no, ready ready!!" I said "that's so sad, I guess you'll be putting on pj's yourself tonight" And I stuck to my guns. She cried, begged, pleaded for me to help her. I held her tight, hugged her, told her I love her, and still told her that it's so sad and perhaps we could try again tomorrow. Well, she put on pj's by herself, all sad and crying, while I sympathised with her. From then on, whenver it is time to change (into pj's or getting dressed in the morning) I start with "Am I going to be helping you get dressed or are you going to be doing it yourself?".................................

2)My younger daughter - just turned two on Sept 11, so she's really little - is also accustomed to this "uh-oh this is so sad" and also says "no! ready! ready!" --she is so well trained in knowing that when I say "uh-oh" it indicates that she (or her sister) did something wrong. Well, one day we sat down in the kitchen to bake a cake together, and I opened up the closet and saw that we didnt have enough flour so I said "uh-oh!" and the little one automatically said "no! ready! ready!" I started laughing and reassured her that she had done nothing wrong!!

Parenting is a lot easier with these love and logic techniques, and my kids really do know their limits and boundaries.

I am not Christian either and think that perhaps they could have left out those parts, but I still think their parenting ideas are amazing.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I think that you can take good advice and leave bad advice from any parenting book. I have read several books both gentle and not and in all of them I found either something that I could use or else something that I rejected and planned a better way of handling the situation when it happened to me. If you feel that you are to easily taken in by what "authority" figures on a subject say then I would not read it, but if you are interested and think some of it will be useful and you are able to discard the rest than I would read it.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I haven't read it, but the examples make me go "Yuck." OP: Try "Playful Parenting" by Lawrence Cohen. Then if your kid is messing around putting on pajamas it doesn't have to be sad, just fun and bonding time.


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## goldrose (Jan 14, 2003)

chfriend, perhaps it could be fun time and bonding but a) I am happy to have fun time and bonding with my children when they are acting sweet, so yes, not cooperating is sad since they then lose out on fun time and bonding and b) when your children have to be on a schedule, and be out the door by 8:30 in the morning, is not the time for "fun time and bonding". Love and Logic ideas are one way of making life go smoother without the yelling and stresses. (Of course everybody yells at one time or another. It's part of life, but not all of life).


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
Love and Logic ideas are one way of making life go smoother without the yelling and stresses.


Quote:

She cried, begged, pleaded for me to help her.

Quote:

I opened up the closet and saw that we didnt have enough flour so I said "uh-oh!" and the little one automatically said "no! ready! ready!" I started laughing and reassured her that she had done nothing wrong!!
I'm sorry, but it sounds like your kids might actually be pretty stressed out by this method.

Isn't this the book that proposes withdrawing help so children learn lessons the hard way? I think I've read pretty negative reviews about it here. Darn search engine is all wonky.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend*
I haven't read it, but the examples make me go "Yuck." OP: Try "Playful Parenting" by Lawrence Cohen. Then if your kid is messing around putting on pajamas it doesn't have to be sad, just fun and bonding time.

yeah that.

and am i on mothering? In the gentle discipline forum?

3 year olds don't jump into or out of their jammies like they are in the military. it is developmentally appropriate, and how their brain develops incidentally, for them to play. nothing sad, or not sweet about it. and as for the sweetness, are you 'sweet' every second of the day? is anyone? why on earth should 2 and 3 year olds be under pressure to be sweet all the time and on top of that, have mommy's attention withheld as punishment. there is nothing gd about the example given here. gd encompasses alot more than just not beating children.


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## leomom (Aug 6, 2004)

I'm halfway through, and I really like it. Just subbing for now. BBL to catch up on previous posts and tell more about my opinion.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I appreciate all of the posts. Just from the examples given, it really does not sound like my parenting style at all. I don't mean any offense, that's just what I'm picking up on from the examples. So, it doesn't sound like the book has much to offer me. I don't have a lot of time to read, so I want a lot of action for my money :LOL


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Wow. Given the examples From Gold Rose, I would not say that is consistent with GD. It seems to use manipulation, coercion and artificial consequences. I would not be comfortable using a method that encouraged me to stop bonding with my child when their actions were not met with my approval (not acting 'sweet').

Here is a search of other posts about this book:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...archid=1243219

With so many excellent books out there, I would probably not choose this one if I were looking for a good GD book.


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

I bought the book at a flea market. I really do not agree with any of the parenting advice for 0-6-year-olds I'd say. After that, I think it gets a lot better. Especially the teenage years I think they are right in many ways, but I'd still use my judgment and decide on a case-by-case basis.

I definitely do not agree (yuck!) with their comparing young children to (shudder) German Shepherds that need to be trained on command. And many other things like that. In my book at least, they don't condone light spanking of very young children either.. which is a no-no in my eyes (and I think everybody here).

I feel much more "at home" reading Positive Discipline for Preschoolers (except for the sleep part, I practice AP), The Discipline Book and surprisingly, a homeschooling book titled Home Education by Charlotte Mason.

I do own Playful Parenting but I have a hard time with anyone (let alone my child that I loved and nurtured since he was little) disrespecting me and calling me a butthead. I do like the advice on playing more with my children, though. I have a lot of fun playing and discovering things about ds that I wouldn't have if I didn't play with him. I also act a lot more playful about things.

Am I rambling? Perhaps, but let me just say this: above and beyond everything else, you want to keep your children close to you, not create a chasm between the two of you. Keep your relationship strong, nurture it like any other important relationship. This is perhaps, next to your marriage, your most important relationship.

Cheers!


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## leomom (Aug 6, 2004)

Wow, I caught up on the posts and I just want to say that I am do not read those things into that book. Maybe I'm reading a different book or am not far into it.

In any case, I just want to say that I personally would not feel comfortable picking a battle of pajamas and implying that dd wasn't acting sweet because she was playing. I don't mean to judge anyone else's parenting, but since I had posted to say I was reading it and enjoying it, I didn't mean that i agreed with things like that. I hadn't read the previous posts yet, just wante to subscribe. I haven't even really noticed that type of stuff. Maybe I'm just too programed to slant everything toward the gentle side or something...


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## YiddisheMama (Dec 23, 2002)

i've read the book, and use it successfully with my 5 year old, my 2 1/2 year old, and soon with my 11 month old.

i think people have been reading into and misunderstanding the posts by goldrose.

the idea of the book is to teach your children responsibility, respect, love etc.

to let your child have enough control that they are learning to make decisions, (a trait that is very important to have and not everyone can make decisions), *yet the control your child has is within very firm but loving limits*, not enabling them to do anything harmful or detrimental to themselves or to others, but educating them in a practical way.

for instance, if i told my five year old i wanted her to wear her red dress today, she'd argue she wanted her blue one. yet, if i told her she can look in her closet and choose something, she may choose something ridiculous, like a plaid shirt with a flower pair of pans or something unmatched like that.

if i gave my daughter a choice, *within my limits*, such as, "do you want to wear the red dress or the blue dress?" i am comfortable with whatever she decides, yet from her perspective, she is making the decision, she feels empowered, she is made to think (which one do i want?), she is learning how to choose.

at the same time, when things have to happen, choices are a great way to go about it.

i won't say to my daughter, "okay, we're leaving, get your jacket on." rather i'd give her a choice, "we're leaving, do you want to put your right hand into your jacket first or your left hand?"'

this is a very insignificant choice, and it really makes no difference how she gets her coat on, but she's busy thinking and deciding, it doesn't occur to her that she doesn't want to get her coat on etc.

it's kind of hard to explain in writing, but i'd highly recommend that you read the book.

choices are not the only things it discusses of course, it was just one aspect i wanted to touch upon.

oh, and one more thing. goldrose, this is directed to you, i think your quips are actually very cute, and i think that only one who has read and practices the love and logic techniques will be properly able to understand without completely taking what you wrote out of proportion.

and just for the record, my children are very very happy, emotionally healthy, loved children. they know and feel that we love them and care for them, and they know that sometimes they make a decision that affects them in a negative way.

feel free to pm me if you have specific questions. i'll be happy to discuss this with anyone!


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Yiddishemama--That makes more sense, but when someone says, "Oh no, that is so sad", she is saying one of two things. 1) That is sad because I am getting ready to make you sad by banishing you to your room for showing age-appropriate behavior or 2) That mommy is sad that you have to go to your room, which makes a child responsible for an adult's feelings.

I am not trying to come down on goldrose, but the examples that she gave were very chilling for me. To tell children that they are only worthy of your love, otherwise they are sent away, when the 'act sweet' puts conditions on our love for our kiddos. Saying, "she knows from her training" makes it sound like she went to boot camp. When kids have such a strong conditioned response to a phrase like "uh-oh", that freaks me out a little.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I don't like it either.

The choices it gives are "fake" choices - basically, you can do what I want you to do or something bad will happen. I remember one example about, "Do you want to walk to the car, or shall I carry you?" That's no choice. And the "right hand first or left hand" thing might work for an easily swayed kid, but never for most kids I know, who would be yelling, "I said no coat!"

I also really hated the author's fake sympathy. The parent decides something like, "We're leaving in 10 minutes; if you haven't finished your food I'm throwing it away." and then does so... and then when the kid is hungry, does this fake-empathy "Gee, I sure know how hard it is to be hungry, but wow, won't dinner taste good 4 hours from now?" routine. I mean, if a person really was acting in a caring, empathetic way towards another person who was hungry, that person would help the hungry person obtain some food. The words are pretty meaningless without any action behind them, and to me they seemed really dishonest. This was an actual example in the book, BTW...

There was another example in the book about the parent suddenly deciding that the kids could stay up as late as they wanted (after years of enforced bedtimes), giving them pretty much no guidance, and then forcing them to wake up early and go to school the next day. What a set-up! How can you expect kids to make wise decisions about their sleep needs when they haven't ever been able to make those choices for themselves before? And why were the parents not trying to help the kids make better decisions? I think this is neglectful parenting, at least this example was...

goldrose, when you say, "Uh-oh, so sad" and theaten bedroom time, are you really feeling sad? It didn't sound like it, since you talk about "training" her with this phrase. Do you consider this dishonest?

Dar


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

what's wrong with a child putting on clothes that don't match?


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
when your children have to be on a schedule, and be out the door by 8:30 in the morning, is not the time for "fun time and bonding".

My kids have to be on a schedule too. And it is hard because they are 3 and 5 yo. I really am sorry about that... for them and for me, I feel we are robbed of precious bonding and fun time b'se I have a full time job that I am not ready to give up... and so does dh... however, and precisely because of that perhaps, I do try to enjoy every single moment with the kids. I do not mean to criticize what you do Goldrose. But then, if you came to this board, it must be that you are curious about other ways of parenting and so why not just try .... Like try and find ways to make putting jammies on funny (I try putting trousers on their heads and pretend I can't figure why it does not work..) or ... if we are persistently late in the morning I brainstorm with the children to find better ways... yes, it does mean that my children do not obey automatically and that is hard when the family in on a schedule however it is just not their fault if this is so and ..... life is not divided into what is fun and what is a chore.... Life is beautiful. Every ounce of it. Really.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sagira*
I do own Playful Parenting but I have a hard time with anyone (let alone my child that I loved and nurtured since he was little) disrespecting me and calling me a butthead.

Sagira, did you try the playful parenting "trick" for bad words? The author describes in the book that when his children called him bad names he pretended that the bad name was his secret name. But then he would tell them "But that is not my real secret name... you want to know my really super secret name. Shhh, don't tell anyone.... It is .. whispering.... <cicico>". Clearly, the kids would start calling him by his supersecret name and everything ended in laughter. Wow that worked like a charm with my kids!


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## YiddisheMama (Dec 23, 2002)

mama ganoush, i think you completely missed my point. it really isn't a big deal if my daughter wears mismatched clothes.

however, *at some point in every child's life, they become an adult.* at what point to they need to learn to live like an adult? how can they learn to make proper choice if they were'nt properly guided? how can they know what's right and what's wrong if they were permitted to do "whatever was fun and made them happy"?????

the love and logic skills are not tough and rough and mean and hard on the children. they educate them in practial ways.

regarding the example given above about the child missing the meal...i did that with my 5 year old daughter. we had to leave to an appointment. i asked her if she needed 15 minutes for lunch or 20 minutes. she told me 20. after 20 minutes when she had barely eaten anything, i calmly took her plate away, and we got ready to go. in answer to your question, *yes, i was sad. yes, it does hurt me that my child is hungry.* and later when she told me she was hungry, i used the line in the book. i told her i know, and i get pretty hungry too when i decide to skip lunch. (remember, *she* made the decision, *she* knew she had adequete time to eat if *she* so desired. *she* was in charge here.
and you know what? she's never done it again. when i ask her how long she needs for lunch (i give her a choice of x or y amount of minutes), i use a timer so she can see how much time is left, *and she always eats her meal, or whatever part of it she wants.*. she knows i won't make her eat more than she's hungry for, but she also knows that food is centered around mealtimes and snacktimes.

she made an adult decision, and she has learned an adult lesson in a fairly simple, painless way.

letting your child do verything he or she wants, and making all of their decisions is not always the right and proper thing to do.

if your child wants to eat candy for breakfast, lunch, and dinner - do you allow that?

i'd calmly tell my child that the candy is not one of the choices for a meal (this hasn't happened, but theoretically).

if your child wants to scribble with permanent marker on the brand new white couch, how to you tell her not to in a way that she'll listen and cooperate *happily* ???

it works with love and logic.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
what's wrong with a child putting on clothes that don't match?









: If my toddler really wanted to wear something, I would let him wear it.







Even if it looked funny.

Regarding the examples given here - the very little of the book that I read, you don't give your child meaningless choices - it was all about letting them actually choose. For instance, in the coat example, if your child wanted to actually go without a coat, you would let them... if they got really cold, then next time they would remember their coat on their own and would have learned an important lesson without a power struggle.

In fact, the book seemed to carry this a little far and encouraged a very adversarial relationship with your child in letting them learn these lessons, which is one of the things I was having an issue with. I don't want my DS to learn about natural consequences in a way that will get CPS called on me... KWIM?


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I also haven't read the book. But from the little the OP said about it, and more from the examples given by the second poster, which are supposed to be consistent with the book, I would say it sounds like a terrible book.

Not trying to be snarky to the second poster, but honestly her whole examples sound totally sad to me.









I've heard great things about the Playful Parenting book. It is on my list of things to read...

Take care,
Tracy


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
"Uh-oh, this is so sad" From her training with this phrase, since she knows that what comes next is "looks like a little bedroom time. you're welcome to come out when you are ready to act sweet. I love you."

Something about this really sits badly with me. It seems to me that the messages given with these statements are kind of crazy-making, in a way... combining a punishment with the phrase "I love you" seems like a recipe for making the words "I love you" very charged in a conflicted way. I think, if I was raised this way, as an adult, everytime someone said, "I love you" to me, I would, in some primal way, wait for the other shoe to drop, feel uneasy, expect something unpleasant to come next.

I guess saying "I love you" when administering a time out or something unpleasant is meant to reassure the child that even though you have to make them do this unpleasant thing, you still love them. But I think it will backfire and make love itself seem unpleasant. I think its better to reassure the child that you love them after the timeout, during the time you are verbally processing the event, and not while you are administering the punishment.

Actually, I'm opposed to punishments, and view being sent to their room as a punishment because of the way they obviously don't like it and don't want it. But this is just my own parenting style and I don't mean to criticize anyone who uses time outs. I just didn't want it to seem like I was supporting time out.


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## owensmom (Feb 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
mama ganoush, i think you completely missed my point. it really isn't a big deal if my daughter wears mismatched clothes.

however, *at some point in every child's life, they become an adult.* at what point to they need to learn to live like an adult? how can they learn to make proper choice if they were'nt properly guided? how can they know what's right and what's wrong if they were permitted to do "whatever was fun and made them happy"?????

the love and logic skills are not tough and rough and mean and hard on the children. they educate them in practial ways.

regarding the example given above about the child missing the meal...i did that with my 5 year old daughter. we had to leave to an appointment. i asked her if she needed 15 minutes for lunch or 20 minutes. she told me 20. after 20 minutes when she had barely eaten anything, i calmly took her plate away, and we got ready to go. in answer to your question, *yes, i was sad. yes, it does hurt me that my child is hungry.* and later when she told me she was hungry, i used the line in the book. i told her i know, and i get pretty hungry too when i decide to skip lunch. (remember, *she* made the decision, *she* knew she had adequete time to eat if *she* so desired. *she* was in charge here.
and you know what? she's never done it again. when i ask her how long she needs for lunch (i give her a choice of x or y amount of minutes), i use a timer so she can see how much time is left, *and she always eats her meal, or whatever part of it she wants.*. she knows i won't make her eat more than she's hungry for, but she also knows that food is centered around mealtimes and snacktimes.

she made an adult decision, and she has learned an adult lesson in a fairly simple, painless way.

letting your child do verything he or she wants, and making all of their decisions is not always the right and proper thing to do.
.


I was listening to some tunes I hadn't heard in a while last night, and I was struck again by this line in a Tragically Hip song: "No dress rehearsal, this is our life". It brought me around then to the central theme of the movie Strictly Ballroom - a life lived in fear is a life half lived.

I thought, this is what I want my kid to grow up to understand. I don't want him to feel he needs to go through life doing what is always expected... high school, college, career, house, wife, whatever. My dh and I bought into all the consumerist needs in our 20's, now we are wishing we didn't have so much stuff, so much debt, so we could live more freely and happily... dh said now he knows why people have mid life crises! Anyway, if ds wants to wear mismatched clothes for the rest of his life and he is happy doing so, then more power to him. I'm not letting him be silly and have fun with everything to suddenly drop the adult bomb on him at age 7. If he won't wear a coat, I'll bring one. If he wants to wear it later, we have it. I'm going to guess that there will be a time when he is a little older that he will figure it all out. I'm not going to be following him around the halls of his school with a jacket in case he gets cold.

It is our responsibility to help our children grow. I can see how the "you didn't eat your lunch and now you're hungry and now you know" thing would work. I'm also always amazed when I learn about kids developmental abilities to find they don't always think the way we do, nor express themselves so we know what is going on. If he doesn't eat what I give him, even though he says he will, maybe he isn't hungry at the time. If he is then hungry an hour later, I'm not going to make him wait until dinner, I'll give him something I brought. I try and think about how I want to be treated, YK? If I didn't eat my lunch, and then was out and about an hour later and got hungry, I'd probably get myself a snack, not chide myself for not eating when I had the chance and suffering until dinner.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

the whole food example really bothers me. and i'm not a tcs person, or a parent that doesn't believe in boundaries or discipline-not by a long shot. bUT i am a big believer in knowing what is age appropriate for my child, and not expecting more or less from her. i know for instance, that young children's bodies are designed to graze frequently throughout the day, not just at rigidly set mealtimes. There are days that my child is just eating pretty much all day, and days when she doesn't seem to eat nearly as much. and that is exactly what she is supposed to do. Setting strict times and rules about a child's eating sets them up for life long eating issues, and doesn't respect their physical and emotional needs.


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## owensmom (Feb 23, 2002)

ahhh, mama g, you say things so much more eloquently than I... :LOL


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

I don't think I'd care for the book.

I do actually use choices to some extent, e.g. bringing out a couple of different things to wear and letting dd pick, etc. I could also see letting her try not wearing a coat if she was very insistent.

However, generally she responds very well (she's 4) to me

(i) taking the time to look her in the eye and explain what needs doing and why ("I understand you don't want to wear a coat today, but today is a cold, windy day, and a coat will keep you cozy and warm),

(ii) asking open questions about what she wants to do about it (e.g. "so if you don't want to wear the coat I brought you, what can you pick that will keep you warm?" - this works better now than a year ago)

and (iii) being silly sometime ("oh no, the big fluffy winter coat is trying to get away! it doesn't want you to put it on! catch it! catch it!").

Sometimes this means things get a bit lengthy, but often not - she's used to being tuned in to what goes on around her and I think it helps her be more on the ball than if I were just using timers and cue phrases to warn her that something she dislikes is going to happen if she doesn't hop to it.

I'm really uncomfortable with setting her up to respond well to emotional manipulation - I'm doing this because I love you, do what I say if you want me to show affection, etc. I also don't feel comfortable with setting a timer around eating. To me, a timer would create a lot of anxiety and control issues around food. Granted my daughter is a slow eater, and sometimes needs reminders if we have somewhere to be, or if she's getting carried away telling a story at dinner, but I don't see the need to add a stressor to the table that way.

I realize this is a touchy subject, and previous posters obviously just selected a few examples without the full context - please don't be offended, this is just my take.


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## goldrose (Jan 14, 2003)

Howdy all

Perhaps everyone is waiting to hear what 'goldrose the terrible mama' has to say. hehe. It appears that the posters of GD have a hard time with anything that is not natural.
("I wont shave my arms and legs, it's not natural" - well, perhaps it isnt, but it's definitely nicer-looking).
Anyway, it's definitely true that I'm not sweet all the time. Nor do I expect ANYONE (for sure little kids!) to be sweet all the time. Yet, when I'm not feeling sweet, I don't go around bashing people and hurting them. I WILL, however, take some time for myself in my room or on the couch, maybe with a book or something, and tell my children that I'm not feeling too good right now and need some peace time. A child who does not feel like being sweet is welcome to feel that way, but ACTING unsweet is another story. I don't, G-d forbid, love them or accept them less even for a second at such a time. They are welcome to feel and act unsweet away from other people who may be affected.
No, this world is not a free-for-all. Children who are brought up with loving limits are better-adjusted and feel safer. If you choose not to read Love and Logic, be my guest. It's your loss.
That said, I wish you all luck with your playful parenting. Sometimes I have time for play, sometimes I don't. Yes children like to play, and they can, and I'm happy to play with them when I am up to it. At other times, they're welcome to play with themselves, their siblings, or friends.
P.s. I"m not a mainstream mother, I don't give my children shots and I don't believe in spanking. Nor do I believe in punishing. Natural consequenses are a very effective way for children to learn.
Good luck to you all.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *owensmom*
If I didn't eat my lunch, and then was out and about an hour later and got hungry, I'd probably get myself a snack, not chide myself for not eating when I had the chance and suffering until dinner.

I thought this was pretty eloquent.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
Natural consequenses are a very effective way for children to learn.

I would like to know what is natural about sending your child to her room.


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## goldrose (Jan 14, 2003)

And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
("I wont shave my arms and legs, it's not natural" - well, perhaps it isnt, but it's definitely nicer-looking).


that's a pretty subjective opinion, like much of the rest of your post. and probably isn't a great way to meet friends in this community you've newly joined, much like the rest of your post.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
Nor do I believe in punishing.









Your example used a punishment, so I'm confused by your statement that you don't believe in punishing? Sending your daughter to her room alone when she obviously doesn't want to be there... not a punishment?


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Do let's calm down. I think that most posters have been quite respectful in terms of giving their feedback to the original poster's question about the book, coupled with examples from people actually using it. I don't think sarcasm is necessary.

I agree with natural consequences. But I don't know how a child could perceive natural consequences on their own if a parent uses this type of method - all consequences seem to flow from the power relationship, at least in the examples above. I also don't want my children to grow up into relationships where there's a bad power dynamic going on, they get the short end of the stick, and they misidentify that as a 'natural consequence' that they are deserving of, if you see what I mean? To me, natural consequences should promote problem-solving abilities (what are the different ways to fix this together?), and that's hard if they're reduced to a 'do this or else.'


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!


??? Did I miss something?


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!

Of course, telling my child that my secret name is a dirty word is a joke. My 4 yo knows I am joking when I say that. It makes her laugh. Through laughter we reconnect. And when we are connected close she never calls me names. You will not believe how effective this is if you never try. I was at a friend's house with the kids and my guest's 4 yo son said his father was stupid. His dad sent him to time out. When he came out, he said it again. He got spanked. He went on. It was soooo sad. I do not really know what would have happened next because I picked a book and started reading loud and all the kids sat down to listen. Anyway, for anyone interested, this game of dirty words is at page 64 of Playful Parenting.

Do I have to add that a "kind of person" is my secret name?







:







:


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!

I thought it was kind of a funny game. Then again, I remember sitting in a car full of 4-7 year olds and listening to them sing for 40 minutes about farts, pee, poop, and "crappy", and feeling so thankful that they were all happily engaged and getting along so the other mom and I could talk. Kids are now 10-13 and all are well past the dirty words stage, with no harm done.

Sometimes I don't feel like eating at a mealtime - maybe I'm nervous or crampy and my stomach doesn't feel like food, or I'm distracted by conversation or a project that I'm thinking about. I try to trust my belly and eat when I'm hungry, because I think it helps me to keep a weight that's right for my body, and it helps me to make eating about hunger, not about the clock. Still, sometimes I misjudge, and I'm in the middle of something else and I'm suddenly hungry. I certainly don't sit there thinking, "Gee, so sad, I guess I'll have to wait 3 hours until dinner time." No, I grab a granola bar or something similar from my bag (I try to keep a stash) or hit the snack machine or if I'm out driving, I make a quick stop someone and get a bite to eat. Isn't this what normal, rational adults would do?

Just ecause your daughter made the decision to skip lunch doesn't mean she's made the decision to eat nothing until dinnertime. *You* are making that decision. That's a "fake" natural consequence, trying to make it seem like what's happening is a result of the child's actions when really it's being inflicted by the parent. It's the parent who is denying the child any food until dinnertime; that's not the child's choice.

mammastar2, I really liked your 3 approaches to the coat issue - very respectful and problem-solving oriented!

And again, I've read "Love and Logic", while really bored one evening waiting for Rain to be done with a babysitting job (and fwiw, the kids she was sitting for are definitely difficult, so I'm not thinking Love and Logic did much good for their family).

Dar


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Kids are now 10-13 and all are well past the dirty words stage, with no harm done.

Thanks for saying this Dar. I do like to hear that it is a phase and it shall pass. I hope it passes as for you, with no harm done, like no insulting the neighbours and calling them poopyhead.







In fact, strange as it may seem, my game seems to have reduced to namecalling to just a game, no longer charged of bad meanings. And reduced the frequency of it, also.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
Sometimes I have time for play, sometimes I don't. Yes children like to play, and they can, and I'm happy to play with them when I am up to it. At other times, they're welcome to play with themselves, their siblings, or friends.

I just wanted to add that I do not spend my entire day playing with dc either. (I wish.....). Of course, my children do play by themselves, with friends and with siblings. Playful parenting is not about giving up my adult role. It is about interacting with my children in a language (play) that they understand. It means using play to overcome obstacles and to reconnect with them. It really is a great book and full of resources, and well worth a read.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
From her training with this phrase,

...

she is so well trained

I'm sorry, but these statements just give me chills!!!









Any book that has me TRAINING my child like a dog is not one that will ever find it's way to my bookshelf.


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## goldrose (Jan 14, 2003)

for the one who said "...it works like a charm..." - just because something works, doesn't mean it is the right way to go, as you all will agree that smacking will no doubt shut the child up since he doesnt want to be hit again - it works, yes. Is it right? noway!
And I wonder what the child who thinks dirty words are secret names will do when he calls a classmate a dirty word and gets punched in the face. "but it was supposed to be a joke, a game, and silly!?!!"
And a lot more things I don't like about this specific way of dealing with dirty words.

p.s. as far as "a great way to make friends" Why? Can't you be friends with someone who has different parenting ideas than you? We don't have to agree! Also, I am not new to this community, I've been a member for a few years already.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

We don't promote the idea that any words are 'dirty'. It seems much simpler to teach that there are words that may be used in different places and that some are going to get a negative reaction. I think that using them playfully takes all the fun out of them. When you start calling them 'dirty' words or making a big deal out of 'butthead', then they become sooooo enticing.

My child would certainly know the difference between words we use in play and calling someone that at school.


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## YiddisheMama (Dec 23, 2002)

b'h

while i may not agree with everything in the love and logic books, (although i do agree with most), the general gist of the book is teaching children responsibility. love with firm limits.

all i can say is if you haven't read the book, it's your loss, not mine. i've read it, studied it, i practice it, and i have three very happy, well-adjusted, loved, loving, fun, playful, friendly, responsible children.

we have fun together, we play games together, we do chores together, and some things are their responsibility. like making sure the dirty clothing is in the basket. my kids know that i'm happy to wash all the laundry that is inside the basket. it's their loss if a favorite shirt is still dirty because they left it on the floor. and if they want it washed, it'll be in the basket.

my children don't feel that i don't love them because i didnt wash the shirt. the know that *they* are the ones who made that decision.

and if my daughter who is still freshly potty trained, needs to go, but doesn't want to for whatever reason (even with my taking her), i'll do it in a fun way by asking, "do you want to skip to the bathroom or crawl to the bathroom?" instantly, her mind is occupied with thinking...and the fact that she didn't want to go isn't an issue anymore, because not going was not one of the choices i gave her.

so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...how would you react if your 3 year old got hold of a black permanent marker and decorated the brand new ivory colored couch in the den?

just curious.

(oh, and i definitely shave my legs and my underarms)


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## owensmom (Feb 23, 2002)

What is with all the couch grafitti examples? They are a totally different situation then the everyday 'I don't want to get a coat/go pee/put on my pajamas".

and the shaving legs "au natural" sidebar is really annoying and insulting.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
Something about this really sits badly with me. It seems to me that the messages given with these statements are kind of crazy-making, in a way... combining a punishment with the phrase "I love you" seems like a recipe for making the words "I love you" very charged in a conflicted way. I think, if I was raised this way, as an adult, everytime someone said, "I love you" to me, I would, in some primal way, wait for the other shoe to drop, feel uneasy, expect something unpleasant to come next.

I guess saying "I love you" when administering a time out or something unpleasant is meant to reassure the child that even though you have to make them do this unpleasant thing, you still love them. But I think it will backfire and make love itself seem unpleasant. I think its better to reassure the child that you love them after the timeout, during the time you are verbally processing the event, and not while you are administering the punishment.


I completely agree with what your saying about "I love you" being confused with the punishments. Looking back on my childhood I'm grateful that the few times my parents spanked they never bothered to do that syrupy-sweet, forced happy hug afterwards. You know, the one mentioned in every pro-spanking article ever written. The last thing I would have ever wanted was to be hugged and kissed by someone who had just made me feel so terrible. (Even though my parents spanked so lightly they were barely noticeable. It was more the mental and emotional pain of being hit by a loved one, not the physical.)









~Nay


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *owensmom*
If I didn't eat my lunch, and then was out and about an hour later and got hungry, I'd probably get myself a snack, not chide myself for not eating when I had the chance and suffering until dinner.









:

~Nay


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
Howdy all

It appears that the posters of GD have a hard time with anything that is not natural.
("I wont shave my arms and legs, it's not natural" - well, perhaps it isnt, but it's definitely nicer-looking).
.


*ahem** I not only shave my pits and legs, heck I even shave the old bikini zone.









~Nay


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!


If you read the entire book, it makes a lot more sense.







I read the book several months ago and really enjoyed it. From what I remember Cohen (at that point in the book) was dealing with older children who were very rude, ill-mannered, and disruptive. They also liked saying obscenities. So he used the game "don't say my secret name--it's dirty!" to make a game out of saying "bad words." Okay, my explanation is terrible. But it's a great book--really!

~Nay


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
p.s. as far as "a great way to make friends" Why? Can't you be friends with someone who has different parenting ideas than you? We don't have to agree!

Of course, but then, you need to state your opinion respectfully.
Calling someone "a kind of person" in my opinion, is not.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
for the one who said "...it works like a charm..." - just because something works, doesn't mean it is the right way to go, as you all will agree that smacking will no doubt shut the child up since he doesnt want to be hit again - it works, yes. Is it right? noway!

That it exactly the problem I have with your "bedroom time" approach. It works. Perhaps. Is it right? When answering to this question, you need to refer to a value system. My value system is "will this damage/enhance my relationship with my kids"? Putting them in time-out, punishing them, and of course hitting them surely damages the relation. So, in my view, they are not "right". I would like to know why, i.e. referring to which value system, you judge this particular playful parenting technique wrong

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
And I wonder what the child who thinks dirty words are secret names will do when he calls a classmate a dirty word and gets punched in the face. "but it was supposed to be a joke, a game, and silly!?!!"

As another poster clarified, we do also talk about different kind of words that can be used in different contexts. We talk about that when everyone is calm and noone is calling anyone a bad name. So my kids know very well that they should not use butthead to call a friend. Nevertheless, as all kids do, they will occasionally do so. And then, that's when I tried this game. And the real bonus from this game was that it made my kids see how words can be used to play or to hurt people.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
And a lot more things I don't like about this specific way of dealing with dirty words.

I just made my suggestion.... you are free to like it or not. But then, I prefer an opinionated exchange of opinions.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
it's their loss if a favorite shirt is still dirty because they left it on the floor. and if they want it washed, it'll be in the basket.
my children don't feel that i don't love them because i didnt wash the shirt. the know that *they* are the ones who made that decision.

What if your husband had a special meeting at work and forgot to put his shirt in the basket? Wiould you say "he made his decision" to go to work with a totally non-matching shirt? I am not suggesting that we should do everything for our kids. We should encourage them to be autonomous and help around the house. But punishing them for forgetting to do a chore, that is different.


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## YiddisheMama (Dec 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
What if your husband had a special meeting at work and forgot to put his shirt in the basket? Wiould you say "he made his decision" to go to work with a totally non-matching shirt? I am not suggesting that we should do everything for our kids. We should encourage them to be autonomous and help around the house. But punishing them for forgetting to do a chore, that is different.

that's where you and i differ. i don't see this as a punishment, it's a natural consequence. i don't "punish" my kids either. and it's never happened with my husband, and if it did, he'd wear a different shirt, no sweat.

and yes, i help them clean their room, they're still young.

but here, let me give you an example of natural consqequences.

my then 4 year old daughter autographed the walls in the bathroom. when i saw it, i did not get upset or yell or punish. i calmly said, "oh this is so sad. paper is for coloring on. what are you going to do about the walls?"

so she thought and said, "well, i can wash it off."

so i helped her get a towel and some detergent and she tried scrubbing. it did not come off (which i knew it wouldn't, but i figured i'd let her learn it by herself without me telling her.)

she came to me and said, "mommy, it's not washing off."

i asked, "oh, so what can you do about the walls?" (again, i asked this very calmly.

her: "maybe we can paint it."

me: "hmm, that could work. paint costs money, do you have enough money to buy some paint.?"

her (jumping up, all excited by the idea): "let me count"

a few minutes later...she realized she didn't have enough money.

me: "sometimes when people need money, they can do jobs to earn it. i can pay you to do some jobs you wouldn't normally be doing."

i then gave her a choice of vacuuming the living room or washing the bathroom floor. she choose the bathroom. she had a ball doing it, until the last five minutes when she started saying it was getting hard.

me: "I know, washing floors is hard work. i bet you'll be happy when you're done."

her: "can i stop now?"

me: "you can stop when you want, i only pay for completed jobs."

she finished it. collected her money. and she was very very very proid of herself.

she did a few more jobs, earned more money.

lots of lessons learned.

more lessons, going to home depot with me to buy the paint. counting money at the cash register, paying the cashier...all by herself. a very very proud and smarter 4 year old left the store.

as far as the actual painting, we discussed that she'd paint the spot where she drew and i'd do the rest of the walls so it would match.

no hurt, no pain, no anger, no threats, no spanks, just lots of fun lessons in a real life, practical way.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

you know what is really silly and irksome here? the tired notion that either you are parenting by every word of this particular book, whose whole premise perpetuates a parent vs. child dynamic as opposed to a parent and child dynamic, or you let your children run wild without any limits.

the truth is, i don't parent by any particular book. the only "expert" on my particular child is her parents. why do some many mamas here trust themselves so little and trust some man who has never even met their child and spends half the year on the lecture circuit? Reclaim your power, listen to your instincts, and parent in the way that most respects and honors your particular child.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...

See, I was actually interested in hearing more about your approach until you got insulting and condescending... then you lost me. Oh well.


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## goldrose (Jan 14, 2003)

KristiMetz, now that was a love and logic tactic - YiddisheMama chose to say something a certain way, that resulted in your natural reaction, and now it's "oh well" so sad, you lost your interest.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
but here, let me give you an example of natural consqequences.

These are in no way natural conseqeunces. The natural consequence of coloring on the walls is having decorated walls. "Love and Logic" is not about natural consequences, but about the author's strange version of "logical" ones.

I'm really not into turning life into "lessons". Every kid I've ever known has drawn on the walls or the furniture or something, at some point. It's normal. That's a huge fuss to make over something that is normal, and passes. A wise parent buys washable markers and pencils, and keeps anything permanent well out of reach. A wise parent also doesn't buy a brand new cream-colored sofa when she has a 3 year old... aside from being colored-on, there's the possibility of potty accidents, juice spills, muddy feet... the list goes on.

I could let you all buy cream-colored sofas and have them destroyed by your 3 year olds, but I'd prefer to share my knowledge and help you avoid some work and a ruined sofa if possible. You could tell your child that scrubbing won't work, and help her avoid some work, but you don't... you let her "learn for herself". How is this helpful? Isn't the point of having all of these boards to help each other? Maybe people who think children should learn thse things "for themselves" should have to live their own lives this way...

Dar


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
KristiMetz, now that was a love and logic tactic - YiddisheMama chose to say something a certain way, that resulted in your natural reaction, and now it's "oh well" so sad, you lost your interest.

Oh, nice. So Love and Logic includes manipulating people into respending a certain way (insulting someone is likely to provoke a lack of interest in continuing a conversation, for sure) and then blaming them for the reaction you instigated. Luckily we as adults can see through the head games and the condescending "oh well, so sad", but small children at their parents' mercy generally can't....









Dar


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

**so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...how would you react if your 3 year old got hold of a black permanent marker and decorated the brand new ivory colored couch in the den?

just curious.**

If i had an ivory colored sofa, i would make sure it came with ivory colored washable slip covers.

If one has such a sofa and wee ones, it would make sense to have a back- up plan that didn't involve humiliating children to keep it looking a certain way.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

i would supervise my child until she was old enough to understand that art supplies are for paper. using love and logic to prevent the painted wall or sofa in the first place. rather than punish a child for age appropriate behavior.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I have a turning 5 year old and a 15 month old. I have a 43 year old sofa with a slip cover. Coincidence? No.

Dp and I have fond conversations about when we'll get new stuff







We figure when the youngest is 10 it'll be safe.

We're temporarily between wall-drawers. DD1 creates elaborate artwork. DD2 still eats the crayons.

We did have an evening recently where we covered the kitchen floor with a plastic tablecloth and big sheets of paper. We painted our hands and feet (dd2 pretty much painted herself) and did hand and foot prints.

Got lots of paint on the floor. We washed it up.

Oh, and if you have wood panel walls, you can chalk all over them. It comes right off.

I don't want to spend my short time with my children worrying about walls and furniture. As we say in our family, "People are more important than things."

It's part of an overall philosophy that we can work things out together; that we're here to help each other. My kids are an enormous help to me. I'm an enormous help to them. Dp is the greatest help I can imagine.

I was sick for 2 months, recently getting better. I required tremendous understanding from my children. They came through with empathy and understanding. All that "love, love, love" paid off big-time for me.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Wow. I am truly amazed at some of the stuff so called "gentle discipline" parents have the nerve to do to their child.

I've been anorexic for over 10 years. Wanna know why? Because of parents like the 2nd poster. Parents who give you a time limit on eating and then make you starve to your next meal because you didn't finish in time and call it a "natural consequence". I am disgusted. Do you even realize what kind of irreversible damage you could be doing? How dare you call that being a gentle parent, let alone an attachment parent. There is nothing gentle or attached about withholding food from a child or forcing them to finish within YOUR time limit. There is nothing gentle or attached about making your child cry because they wanted to play instead of putting on their pajamas. And then to be proud of her "training"?! She's not a dog! She doesn't need to be trained! She is a child, a gift, a privilege to have. Not something that needs to manipulated by a grown adult that should know better.

What has happened to this place? I can't even believe I'm on MDC anymore.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
KristiMetz, now that was a love and logic tactic - YiddisheMama chose to say something a certain way, that resulted in your natural reaction, and now it's "oh well" so sad, you lost your interest.

Yes, me losing interest in the conversation is indeed a natural consequence, is that what you're saying? I have nothing against natural consequences (as long as a child is old enough to understand and live with them) and in fact rely heavily upon them (if my DS wanted to go outside without a coat, he would be welcome to do so; if we left the house, I'd probably keep one in the car).

From what I've read of the book, and read here from people who follow this idealogy, however, I really don't think it's for me. I'm interested in reading more about natural consequences, but there are so many lively discussion here that hanging around MDC seems to be better than any book.









I knew there was a reason I hung around this place, even though I frequently feel stifled by the PTB.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that scared and upset little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad. Why would anyone do that to a child?


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that sad little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad.

Yep.


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Whew! This thread has turned ugly.

OK, someone here (I don't remember, sorry!) mentioned to try the secret word technique. You know, perhaps I will. It seems to be a distraction. Anything to keep my son from being disrespectful and/or say bad words.

I don't say bad words (I know, some of you don't consider any words bad, but I really do







), and I never have. I'm big on politeness and treating other people with respect, especially treating my elders with deference because of their increased experience in life. I'm careful not to offend, and if I do accidentally, feel terrible about it and apologize.

I still maintain that the book Parenting With Love And Logic is not suitable, or recommended, IMO, for children. Perhaps some techniques would work with teenagers.

How on earth did shaving underarms and legs come into the picture? I understand the point (however obtusely made) about being "natural", but there was no need for that.

If it works for you, great. Families are so diverse it would be boring to have everyone employing the exact same parenting techniques. Considering each person's different personality and experience, it's also downright impossible IMO. Let's respect each other's differences, please.


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## YiddisheMama (Dec 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that scared and upset little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad. Why would anyone do that to a child?

just for the record: my 4 year old may have been little, but she was far from scared and upset. she was actually pretty thrilled to be figuring out the solution on her own. and she knew i'd back whatever she decided. and i don't think trying to wash the wall was a waste of time, either. she learned that ink won't wash off a wall. she learned that repainting it will cover over the ink. she learned that her mommy isn't going to tell her what to do, but her mommy will support her decisions, and sometimes help direct her decisions (while she's still this young.)


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

AND she learned that when one thing doesn't work, keep trying!







I see no harm in it.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
it's never happened with my husband, and if it did, he'd wear a different shirt, no sweat..

Well perhaps the example was not well chosen. Suppose your husband prepared some cookies and forgot to turn off the oven and went on to play a game on the computer. Well, the natural consequence of that is (so said) burnt cookies. Using your love and logic technique, even if you found out what was going on, you would have to let his cookies burn, so he "learns a good life lesson". I am sure you would not do that. Why? Because you love him. Because the whole family would prefer to eat nice cookies. Because you would not want your dh to feel humiliated. Because you do not want to spend the whole day cleaning the oven. Because your husband wanted to do something nice and just because of one stupid mistake everything turns bad. I could go on. How could something be "natural" when it is only applied to the children in the family and noone else but them.


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

We use L&L at our house quite successfully. I held off, having read some negative reviews in another group I'm involved with, but got to a point with my very high energy 4yo where I decided to go ahead and check it out. I felt like I'd tried everything! I read it in a few days and we immediately put the methods into practice.

The result for us was a much happier child and calmer household!

I agree with some folks who don't like the tone of parts of the book. I don't either. The whole 'basic german sherpard training' thing rubbed me the wrong way. I decided not to let the language used to explain the techniques get in the way of the techniques themselves.

They work like gold for us and ds is much more content when we are on our game with L&L...when we aren't, he is more aggitated for sure.


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## goldrose (Jan 14, 2003)

Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"
By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.


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## kchoffmann (Aug 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
i would supervise my child until she was old enough to understand that art supplies are for paper. using love and logic to prevent the painted wall or sofa in the first place. rather than punish a child for age appropriate behavior.

This is the part of the L&L approach for young children that bothers me too. I have a 26 mo and I would never expect - or even want - him to act like an adult or even make "adult" choices. I can't imagine wanting that until he is, well, a whole lot closer to being an adult. What is this obsession in our culture with expecting adult behavior from our children? If my son refused to wear his coat (which I can't even imagine him doing - maybe he's not old enough for this behavior?) I would bring it with me and when he got cold later, I would let him have it - as another poster said she would do too. I would never expect him to be THAT responsible for himself - even a year or two from now. I say, let them be children learning how to be children, not children learning how to be adults. There's plenty of time for that when it's developmentally appropriate.

This is interesting to me, too, because I work as a HS counselor, and we have some L&L books on the bookshelf that make loads of sense to me for adolescents. I didn't even know they had books for younger kids.

All that said, I think there is a problem with a trend in parenting lately where parents give NO real boundaries to their children. This just leads to a whole lot of angry children. But, perhaps that whole issue is irrelevant here.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I have not read the book but I do have an acquantaince that is trying the techniques and she has told me about some of the "natural consequences" she is using for her daughter and frankly they made me feel icky. I agree with some PPs that do not feel most of the approaches are "natural consequences" at all but seem more like manipulation tactics.

The natural consequence of not putting on jammies is going to bed in daytime clothes or naked...

I'm not interested in training my children like they are dogs - children should enjoy life and not be in constant lesson learning mode.


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## kchoffmann (Aug 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.

No, this is not the result of young children coloring on walls. Believe me, I work with adolescents and see what leads to children disrespecting others. It's their misplaced anger, almost always at their parents, for not ________ fill in the blank - allowing them to be themselves, loving them for who they are, listening and/or noticing their feelings, etc. I'm not saying anyone here is doing that either. I just wanted this point to be clear.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that scared and upset little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad. Why would anyone do that to a child?

My thoughts exactly.

I read the whole thread. I am sorry, but the examples given for following this "Love and Logic" give me chills.

I treat my kids the way I want to be treated. Yes with love. Yes with logic. But also with compassion and understanding.

My kids do not "pay" for their mistakes and are not left alone to deal with their mistakes. I'll be the first one to jump to help them.

When I make mistakes, DH (and now DS







) are the first ones to help me fix them. They are not afraid I will not "learn my lesson"

Quote:

so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...how would you react if your 3 year old got hold of a black permanent marker and decorated the brand new ivory colored couch in the den?

just curious
I will proudly say that I indeed do everything in the name of love.

Marked couch? I'd seriously ask myself "What was *I* thinking getting the ivory couch with kids in the house! I guess I have to live with the consequences of having the marked couch now..."


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
**so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...how would you react if your 3 year old got hold of a black permanent marker and decorated the brand new ivory colored couch in the den?

just curious.**

If i had an ivory colored sofa, i would make sure it came with ivory colored washable slip covers.

If one has such a sofa and wee ones, it would make sense to have a back- up plan that didn't involve humiliating children to keep it looking a certain way.

I agree with UU mom. I am fairly "strict" but a three year old a permanent marker and an ivory couch are more my problem than the three year olds.

And I don't think you understand what a "natural" consequence is, YM.

Yours may be "logical" but it's not "natural" and to me it was too much for a four year old.

My reaction to my four year old writing on the walls would be to tell them that they should not have done that and that I expect them to only write on paper from now on.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
that's where you and i differ. i don't see this as a punishment, it's a natural consequence. i don't "punish" my kids either. and it's never happened with my husband, and if it did, he'd wear a different shirt, no sweat.

and yes, i help them clean their room, they're still young.

but here, let me give you an example of natural consqequences.

my then 4 year old daughter autographed the walls in the bathroom. when i saw it, i did not get upset or yell or punish. i calmly said, "oh this is so sad. paper is for coloring on. what are you going to do about the walls?"

so she thought and said, "well, i can wash it off."

so i helped her get a towel and some detergent and she tried scrubbing. it did not come off (which i knew it wouldn't, but i figured i'd let her learn it by herself without me telling her.)

she came to me and said, "mommy, it's not washing off."

i asked, "oh, so what can you do about the walls?" (again, i asked this very calmly.

her: "maybe we can paint it."

me: "hmm, that could work. paint costs money, do you have enough money to buy some paint.?"

her (jumping up, all excited by the idea): "let me count"

a few minutes later...she realized she didn't have enough money.

me: "sometimes when people need money, they can do jobs to earn it. i can pay you to do some jobs you wouldn't normally be doing."

i then gave her a choice of vacuuming the living room or washing the bathroom floor. she choose the bathroom. she had a ball doing it, until the last five minutes when she started saying it was getting hard.

me: "I know, washing floors is hard work. i bet you'll be happy when you're done."

her: "can i stop now?"

me: "you can stop when you want, i only pay for completed jobs."

she finished it. collected her money. and she was very very very proid of herself.

she did a few more jobs, earned more money.

lots of lessons learned.

more lessons, going to home depot with me to buy the paint. counting money at the cash register, paying the cashier...all by herself. a very very proud and smarter 4 year old left the store.

as far as the actual painting, we discussed that she'd paint the spot where she drew and i'd do the rest of the walls so it would match.

no hurt, no pain, no anger, no threats, no spanks, just lots of fun lessons in a real life, practical way.









this feels so sad to me. i'm sure you had the best intentions and it seems that your daughter weathered it well, but there were several moments of sheer disappointment that could have been avoided...and i don't understand why you chose to have her go through them?


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"
By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.

my 2.5yo son has pretty much learned that he's not supposed to color on walls (i'm sure he'll mess up at some point)...the way we taught him was that every time he tried (first of all i was always around when he had implements of drawing) i'd say "rowan, we use our crayons on paper. here, let's draw something together". if he kept trying to draw on the wall i'd say something like "please don't draw on the wall, we draw on paper instead." if he tried a third time...well, i don't think there ever was a third time. i'm not saying he only EVER tried twice, but in each "session" there was never a third time.

he also always said "sorry" when he did it...which is something that i have never EVER told him to say. i've said it to him when i'm really sorry about something (like i accidentally did something that affected him negatively in some way) but i've NEVER told him to say please, thank you, or sorry. he just sort of picked it up. anyway, when he said "Sorry" for drawing on the walls i'd just say "it's ok, i make mistakes too. let's draw a picture on the paper" (or something similar).

so...anyway, since you were asking how someone else would handle it...that's how i handled it.

oh...also, when he was really little...we let him draw on one section of one wall with soap. washes off easily and was a load of fun for him.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that scared and upset little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad. Why would anyone do that to a child?

That example didn't bother me nearly as much as some of the previous ones, actually. It went on way too long, and turned a minor incident into a huge deal, but it didn't seem as traumatic for the little girl as some other examples. I guess, based on what I've been reading about L&L, I was expecting something more like this:

"Oh, this is so sad. Since you wrote on the bathroom walls, I'm going to have to lock you out of the bathroom for a month. Here's a bucket to use instead."


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*

"Oh, this is so sad. Since you wrote on the bathroom walls, I'm going to have to lock you out of the bathroom for a month. Here's a bucket to use instead."









You forgot to add "I love you!"


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

I was initially curious about this thread because they are offering a Love & Logic workshop at our local YMCA. From what I have seen here, it doesn't sound like something I'd be interested in though. No big deal.

However, what's more disappointing is not that the book may not be to my liking, but that some of the comments here are so rude and condescending.

Even if I thought the book might be of interest to me, the "flavor" this thread has taken would probably make me put it back on the shelf.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
my then 4 year old daughter autographed the walls in the bathroom. when i saw it, i did not get upset or yell or punish. i calmly said, "oh this is so sad. paper is for coloring on. what are you going to do about the walls?"

so she thought and said, "well, i can wash it off."

so i helped her get a towel and some detergent and she tried scrubbing. it did not come off (which i knew it wouldn't, but i figured i'd let her learn it by herself without me telling her.)

she came to me and said, "mommy, it's not washing off."

i asked, "oh, so what can you do about the walls?" (again, i asked this very calmly.

her: "maybe we can paint it."

me: "hmm, that could work. paint costs money, do you have enough money to buy some paint.?"

her (jumping up, all excited by the idea): "let me count"

a few minutes later...she realized she didn't have enough money.

me: "sometimes when people need money, they can do jobs to earn it. i can pay you to do some jobs you wouldn't normally be doing."

i then gave her a choice of vacuuming the living room or washing the bathroom floor. she choose the bathroom. she had a ball doing it, until the last five minutes when she started saying it was getting hard.

me: "I know, washing floors is hard work. i bet you'll be happy when you're done."

her: "can i stop now?"

me: "you can stop when you want, i only pay for completed jobs."

she finished it. collected her money. and she was very very very proid of herself.

she did a few more jobs, earned more money.

lots of lessons learned.

more lessons, going to home depot with me to buy the paint. counting money at the cash register, paying the cashier...all by herself. a very very proud and smarter 4 year old left the store.

as far as the actual painting, we discussed that she'd paint the spot where she drew and i'd do the rest of the walls so it would match.

no hurt, no pain, no anger, no threats, no spanks, just lots of fun lessons in a real life, practical way.

I know everyone is jumping on YM about this, but from what I know about 4 year olds, I'd say that there was nothing wrong with how she handled the situation. You have to remember, four year olds are kids, but they are not even close to the same level of kid as a toddler or two-three year old.

I was the oldest child of four, spent many years baby-sitting, and worked as a daycare teacher up until I had my son. I've been around many kids in my life. Most four year olds I've met like being treated more like an adult, as in they enjoy helping with difficult decisions. I hope I'm making sense--I'm not great at explaining myself.







Now, don't read my words wrong and try to accuse me of saying four year olds should run out, get jobs, and ACT like adults. No, I did not say that. I said they like to be treated more like an adult. That means they (again, the ones I've known--not necessarily your kids) are perfectly happy to be asked to brainstorm ideas to clean up their messes, etc.

Also, I don't understand the Natural Consequences/Not Natural Consequences attack going on here. Obviously, the natural consequence of writing on walls is to just let the writing stay there indefinitely. Why should the mother have to be punished by cleaning the child's mess any more than the child does? So, in this situation natural consequences aren't really an option. In this particular situation prevention would have been the best policy, but we all know kids are pretty good at climbing and finding things we think are out of reach. Heck, my 13 month old has climbed from the floor to the kitchen table! I know a four year old could probably climb onto, or open nearly anything in a house to get to what she wanted. So, laying the blame on the mom--"Why didn't you put that away!" isn't fair either.

Basically, I don't see anything wrong with how the mom reacted. The daughter sounds like a mature four year old, she was asked for her help and cooperation, she thought of ways to right a wrong, and was not hurt in the process.

~Nay


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"

my child has never colored on walls because i supervised her when she used art supplies until she knew for sure what materials it is appropriate to use with them. i would no more leave my 4 year old with a permanent marker than i would a knife. if something i valued, like my couch, was ruined by my unsupervised child, i would figure that was MY natural consequence, not my dd's.


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

I think that the problem that I have with L&L (and yes, I have read the book) is that it takes a CHILD and uses LOGIC that only applies to adults. Yes it is OK to have expectations of children and even rules for the house, but you can't expect a small child to see the logic in your actions. You see (as an example): not getting dressed for bed and being sassy = going to room till willing to cooperate. The child sees: I am a bad girl and mommy doesn't love me when I am.

It is all about having age appropriate expections of our children. Letting them be children. Letting them grow up secure in the knowledge that you love them and no matter what you will not abandon them. Or else, how can you expect them to come to you when they are 16 and at a party where their ride is drunk???

As for the poor written on couch...My daughter painted our futon frame with ketsup on day. We told her that it is for fries, not furniture. She laughed, we laughed, we all worked together to clean it up. This is what being a parent is about. Helping our children gracefully learn to be adult, slowly over many, many years. It is not about punishing them into perfect behavior at all times (and what you are describing about them making you sad and going to their rooms is a punishment).

But then, I am just a hairy mom trying to understand why someone would come to a NATURAL parenting website and insult NATURAL women.







...oh the mysteries of this world...

Victorian

(who is two more terms away from a BA in Child/Family Studies - WOOHOO)


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
I think that the problem that I have with L&L (and yes, I have read the book) is that it takes a CHILD and uses LOGIC that only applies to adults. Yes it is OK to have expectations of children and even rules for the house, but you can't expect a small child to see the logic in your actions. You see (as an example): not getting dressed for bed and being sassy = going to room till willing to cooperate. The child sees: I am a bad girl and mommy doesn't love me when I am.

It is all about having age appropriate expections of our children. Letting them be children. Letting them grow up secure in the knowledge that you love them and no matter what you will not abandon them. Or else, how can you expect them to come to you when they are 16 and at a party where their ride is drunk???

As for the poor written on couch...My daughter painted our futon frame with ketsup on day. We told her that it is for fries, not furniture. She laughed, we laughed, we all worked together to clean it up. This is what being a parent is about. Helping our children gracefully learn to be adult, slowly over many, many years. It is not about punishing them into perfect behavior at all times (and what you are describing about them making you sad and going to their rooms is a punishment).

But then, I am just a hairy mom trying to understand why someone would come to a NATURAL parenting website and insult NATURAL women.







...oh the mysteries of this world...

Victorian

(who is two more terms away from a BA in Child/Family Studies - WOOHOO)


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

And that's one more reason to







V.!


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Wonderful post Victorian. Mind if I quote you sometimes?


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

I







you Victorian.


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## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

I don't even know Victorian and I love her from the one post I have read. You will be wonderful in your career working with families and children.

Back to lurkdum.......


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## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

Just wanted to add.....

I have read this whole thread! It has turned ugly in spots but is a facinating debate that I have come across many, many, times in my job as an early childhood educator. Without rambling into oblivion about child psychology and developmentally appropriate expectations for children, my experience as an early childhood educator and as a parent has helped me learn a few things.

1) Children respond to genuine emotions expressed genuinely, and do not respond well in the long term to being manipulated. Nor do adults. Just because we are older and'wiser' doesn't make it o.k. to try to trick them. I don't like it when people do this to me-it's just disrespectful. Sying things like "That's so sad" when something isn't sad just is false. Frustrating maybe? But then, that's your problem. I know a lot of daycare teachers who used this tactic on children and it was kind of rediculous to watch. Some children responded to it by complying the first few times, but then most rejected that form of manipulation by exhibiting even more extreme behaviours.

2) Imposing consequences that make no sense-just makes no sense yk? My son is a very slow eater. If I had to be somewhere and he hadn't finished eating I would explain the situation to him and let him choose a snack to bring along. I would do the same thing for myself if the situation were reversed.

3) Preserving the dignity of the child is so important. No, they are not little adults cognitively, but they have the same emotions as us. They have rights too! Just because were are adults doesn't mean that our needs and emotions are more important. My son doen't have the same amount of information that I do about life, but his feelings matter to me deeply. If he refuses to put clothes on and it is really cold in our house (our house is chilly in the mornings) I try to respect that but I have his clothes nearby in case he changes his mind, which he almost always does.

4) Someday these children will be taking care of US when we are old and feeble! Do we really want them to learn the way to care for someone is to coerce and manipulate??? I don't want Liam saying to me...."Sorry mom, but you were too slow eating your lunch so you'll have to wait 4 hours till dinner is served. Maybe next time you'll be faster."???

5) I have worked for ten years with children under 6. I started off using a lot of manipulation because I didn't know any other way. I still have some days when my brain isn't working and slip back into the occasional coercive tactic, but I try very hard to be as respectful and concious of the child's emotions as I possibly can. I can tell you that it is way more difficult but infinitely more rewarding to work with and love small children while respecting their emotions and humanity. And people really are more important than things.

I will have to read Parenting with Love and Logic before I can comment on it.........

Sorry for this long, rambling, somewhat off topic post


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

Reason #10098374 why I love Victorian so much.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

I don't know Natalie... I am afraid I disagree with you on your last point.

I saw you post as coherent, very much on topic and completely relevant :LOL

I love reading posts where mamas can express themselves so eloquently


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"
By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.

This is why I never come into this forum.

If I was gentle all the time, the walls would be crayoned, DD would go outside in her bathing suit in December, we would never make it to preschool, doctor's appointments, or play dates, and there would be candy bars for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I have not read the natural consequences book but my approach to discipline is a lot closer to what Gold Rose does than what I've seen in the rest of the threads in here. I have found that when DD learn's the consequences of her actions, she does not need as much discipline, gentle or otherwise, and has learned a lot of the responsibilities that she now likes, such as getting PJs on at night, picking an outfit in the morning within reason, helping select meal's within reason.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
If I was gentle all the time, the walls would be crayoned, DD would go outside in her bathing suit in December, we would never make it to preschool, doctor's appointments, or play dates, and there would be candy bars for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Do you really feel this way???? I think you have confused gentle discipline with NO discipline. There really is a difference. Please stick around and try to learn about it - you might be pleasantly surprised.

I'm gentle with my children and my walls are not crayoned, my son wears warm clothes in the winter (they may not be matching however) and we go to playdates and a parent / child class each week. We are very rarely late. Oh and I don't have candy bars in my house (at least not ones that my sons know about! My chocolate is hidden







)


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
This is why I never come into this forum.

If I was gentle all the time, the walls would be crayoned, DD would go outside in her bathing suit in December, we would never make it to preschool, doctor's appointments, or play dates, and there would be candy bars for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

This widespread misconception of gentle discipline bothers me. So many people believe that gentle=doormat. That is NOT always the case! I use gentle discipline and my walls are not crayoned, my son wears appropriate seasonal clothing (though not always matching), we make it to our appointments on time, and eats healthy food (mostly







).

My definition of gentle discipline most assuredly contains 'discipline'...I just do it gently, keeping my son's spirit intact and treating him the way I would want to be treated. I don't always get my way or get what I want in life, and neither does he. But, I try to explain things to him as they happen so he will learn along the way, and as he gets older I will look for his input in problem solving. At this point in his development, I redirect my son to things he *can* do instead of just telling him he *can't* do something...I give him ample time for transitions and talk to him about them the whole time. I engage him in helping me get things ready to go, and will continue to do this and have races, or silly games with him to get things done as he gets older.

what I do NOT do is: Berate him, tell him he's "bad" (or imply that he's bad by saying he's not being sweet), send him away to be by himself if he does something inappropriate, or force him to pay the price for the consequences of making 'decisions' he can't possibly comprehend at his age (and I won't do that in the future). Basically, I treat him the way I would like to be treated, keeping in mind his intellectual, social, and emotional development and his age; I treat him the way I treat my parents, my dear friends; the way I expect my DH to treat me. He'll learn how life works by living life with us, and I'm sure DH and I will learn a few things from him along the way.

...and, I do NOT let him run around the house doing as he pleases.

Please realize that though there are some who practice a lower intervention style of gentle parenting (and even those who practice low intervention parenting are still actively sdiscussing things with their children, not just letting them run wild), there are those of us that do set limits and boundaries, but do it gently, without arbitrary consequences and without major emotional manipulation.

ALSO....I make mistakes, plenty of them. All I can do is regroup and keep trying, and apologize if I need to. Just as I would to my DH, my mom, my friend. Nobody's perfect....I sure don't want my children to try to be, or be afraid if they're not.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
Do you really feel this way???? I think you have confused gentle discipline with NO discipline. There really is a difference. Please stick around and try to learn about it - you might be pleasantly surprised.

I'm gentle with my children and my walls are not crayoned, my son wears warm clothes in the winter (they may not be matching however) and we go to playdates and a parent / child class each week. We are very rarely late. Oh and I don't have candy bars in my house (at least not ones that my sons know about! My chocolate is hidden







)

Hello Kitty, we cross posted! Glad to know I'm not alone out here!!


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

Ok, I read this whole thread. At times it made me totally









I just wanted to say that my immediate reaction to the L+L examples is that they are so... fake? So lacking in genuiness. I don't put on an act when I interact with my dd, I don't do this whole "I am so sad, this is so sad" roleplay, and I can't imagine that doing that could be part of a healthy relationship. We value honesty and sincerity in this family. When my 2yo wants to play and I am in a rush, it doesn't make me SAD. It may make me frustrated, but ultimately that is my problem as my 2yo is (usually) acting precisely as a 2yo was meant to act.

Regarding drawing on the walls, generally my theory is that there shouldn't be unsupervised access to crayons and markers before the child is old enough to understand where to use them. But, accidents happen and it happened here just last week. It didn't occur to me that this was a big deal, that drawing on walls would lead to her becoming a graffiti artist! I didn't even consider there was a long drawn out bit of theatrics involved. I just told her, in a straightforward and kind way, that if we all drew on walls our house would look icky and we really need to clean that up. Then, she 'helped' while I cleaned it off. (Magic Erasers really are magic, one swipe and it was gone. We keep a pkg for just this sort of emergency.) Then I found a better hiding spot for the crayons.









I'll be on the lookout for cans of spraypaint hidden under her bed in the coming years, though.

I love you!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
This is why I never come into this forum.

If I was gentle all the time, the walls would be crayoned, DD would go outside in her bathing suit in December, we would never make it to preschool, doctor's appointments, or play dates, and there would be candy bars for breakfast, lunch and dinner.


You really do need to learn more about GD.

My style of GD does not involve any of those things.

You can tell your child that no they can't write on the walls, go outside dressed inappropriately, that they must be on time for things and still be gentle about it.

My way of being gentle is that while I am willing to say "no' and set rules, I don't feel the need to "back that up" with much in the way of consequences. I will remove temporarily the means of misbehavior to protect the person or property of another but that is about it.

You can also tell them they can't have only candy for meals and still be gentle but in our house, you can have a portion it for lunch and dinner and if you don't want to eat anything else that is your business.
Not one of my children has EVER been interested in eating nothing but candy for a meal, they think its gross!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Seriously. Maya's style and my style are very different, and we don't have those issues either.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
Seriously. Maya's style and my style are very different, and we don't have those issues either.


Exactly. There are many styles of GD. But none involve consequences just to "teach your child a lesson" that is punishment and its really not necessary at all.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

What an absolutely absurd turn this conversation has taken!

None of my children have ever crayoned walls or used markers on the sofa. As soon as I get a blog, I'll come back to this thread and post pix of the house we've lived in for 11 years-- since my third was an infant, my second was 2 and my oldest was 6. My youngest was born in this home. I think you be might surprised at how the home of 4 gently raised children wouldn't look like the Super Dome after Katrina.

If anyone has web space, i can email pix.


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

I forgot to mention on my post that my dd never painted our futon again









Also, she is extremely spirited (or spit-fire as my mom would have proudly said). I find that 99% of problems can be avoided with careful planning and making her aware of the situation (i.e. next week you have a dr. appointment, tomorrow you have an appointment, in two hours, we leave in 1/2 hour..etc.) We get to school on time because we plan to. We set out clothes for her to wear the entire week on Sunday. We keep choices of breakfast food in the house that she likes.

We are not perfect, our parenting has seen HIGHS and lows. But in the low times, it is horrible and obvious that it is not working. So we hurry to change back to more effective disciple.

But to be honest, I'd have to pick up the train pieces if the governor was coming to dinner (which he rarely does - so it seems silly to stress about it). If it was Mamadawg, probabley wouldn't :LOL

Victorian

p.s. :embarrassed I







all of you too


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

Ha! You wouldn't pick up for me but you would for old Ted?

Your priorities are all mixed up, V.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadawg*
Ha! You wouldn't pick up for me but you would for old Ted?

Your priorities are all mixed up, V.










LOL

There. Now I feel better again.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

UUMom - you can get a free account at www.photobucket.com and upload photos there for free, or email 'em to me and I'll do it and send you the URLS. I can vouch for your beautiful home, too, based on the photos I've seen.

It strikes me that many of the parents who object to gentle discipline are coming from a hugely fearful place... we *must* treat our children in these punitive ways or they'll run wild and become juvenile delinquent graffiti artists who eat candy bars all day long. There's this idea that if parents ease up on their children, the children will run amuck... this idea that children are these feral bundles of id who will naturally do horrid things unless "trained", that they're born bad and must be trained to be good. It must be really hard to live with that kind of fear, to not be able to be gentle because you are so afraid that your child will turn into a hooligan if you do.

There's a whole world of options besides Love and Logic ("Gee, so sad,") and "Sure, honey, go color on the walls and have a candy bar".

It's kind of funny, I do know a family that lives in a house where all of the walls are colored on with crayon, pencil, marker, whatever... and this is the family that owns "Love and Logic", this is where I read it.

Dar


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

if it was the prior gov. I would put away the toys, send the kids to granny's house and get out the lacey stuff...hubba, hubba!

if you put on cowboy boots, I could be swayed.

V.


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

As long as I don't have to wear a big belt buckle, I'll consider it, V.

Ok, back on topic:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
It strikes me that many of the parents who object to gentle discipline are coming from a hugely fearful place... we *must* treat our children in these punitive ways or they'll run wild and become juvenile delinquent graffiti artists who eat candy bars all day long. There's this idea that if parents ease up on their children, the children will run amuck... this idea that children are these feral bundles of id who will naturally do horrid things unless "trained", that they're born bad and must be trained to be good. It must be really hard to live with that kind of fear, to not be able to be gentle because you are so afraid that your child will turn into a hooligan if you do.

I think this is the crux of the issue here.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
UUMom - you can get a free account at www.photobucket.com and upload photos there for free, or email 'em to me and I'll do it and send you the URLS. I can vouch for your beautiful home, too, based on the photos I've seen.

It strikes me that many of the parents who object to gentle discipline are coming from a hugely fearful place... we *must* treat our children in these punitive ways or they'll run wild and become juvenile delinquent graffiti artists who eat candy bars all day long. There's this idea that if parents ease up on their children, the children will run amuck... this idea that children are these feral bundles of id who will naturally do horrid things unless "trained", that they're born bad and must be trained to be good. It must be really hard to live with that kind of fear, to not be able to be gentle because you are so afraid that your child will turn into a hooligan if you do.

There's a whole world of options besides Love and Logic ("Gee, so sad,") and "Sure, honey, go color on the walls and have a candy bar".

It's kind of funny, I do know a family that lives in a house where all of the walls are colored on with crayon, pencil, marker, whatever... and this is the family that owns "Love and Logic", this is where I read it.

Dar

I promise i won't even tidy up if i post pics. It's quite 'lived-in'. lol It's just not colored on. I hope I didn't sound prsssy--just this belief that our children will smear their chocolate bars all over the place...crazy.

You are very right about fear. We've talked about that before, and I appreciate very much your articulate way of expressing that. Thanks again, Dar.

Yk, we have some lovely uschooling friends whose children do decorate their walls- and it is *beautiful*. They have these wonderful quotes painted all over their home, and the children have painted their bedroom doors a riot of awesome colors. I love that, too. My home isn't like that. While we do have children's art work everywhere, we don't paint the walls in this way. And that's because we just aren't as cool as this other family.

I also admit, i find i feel much calmer in plain-ish surroundings. I am not a clutter bug and i do like to keep the walkways clear. lol But I am always happy to be at this particular friends home, and I am always delighted by the little painted surprises I find everywhere. It's so creative and fun.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Great thread, great thread, great thread. This is exactly WHY I come to this forum. Spirited exchange of ideas, no pussy-footing around, intelligent mommas who champion the rights of their children to be children.

Dar and V.--excellent point. Not going to re-quote here, because everyone else had--kudos!

And my two cents--DO NOT be afraid that your children will be tyrants if you are gentle with them. So much better to teach and guide than to be harsh and bossy. Do I loose it and yell sometimes? Hell, yeah! But when I take a breath and remember how much I adore the little soul in the body that is making me nuts, it is sooo easy to be gentle and to protect his little heart.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
Yk, we have some lovely uschooling friends whose children do decorate their walls- and it is *beautiful*. They have these wonderful quotes painted all over their home, and the children have painted their bedroom doors a riot of awesome colors. I love that, too. My home isn't like that. While we do have children's art work everywhere, we don't paint the walls in this way. And that's because we just aren't as cool as this other family.

And I'll bet the children in that family don't visit other people and start painting the walls of their (the other people's) houses. A lot of times I've heard people's reactions to these sort of parenting choices be, "But then they'll think they can do that everywhere!" Kids just don't get credited with the ability to discriminate one situation from another.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
Kids just don't get credited with the ability to discriminate one situation from another.









I completely agree. Dh and I are teaching Ds (13.5 months) that whether something is allowed or not has to do with where you are at the moment. Want to throw things in this house? Go right ahead, just don't throw hard objects at people (at least until you've learned to control that arm







) Want to throw things across the room in a restaurant? Not quite such a good idea.









~Nay


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
And I'll bet the children in that family don't visit other people and start painting the walls of their (the other people's) houses. A lot of times I've heard people's reactions to these sort of parenting choices be, "But then they'll think they can do that everywhere!" Kids just don't get credited with the ability to discriminate one situation from another.









Excellent point!

We have two cabinets in the house in which we need to have child locks for my peace of mind. I have a friend who does not believe in them. Not because they send a strong 'no' signal, which is why I am not wild about having them. She does it because she thinks they will get into everyone else's cabinets. My son has been to many, many houses that do not have locks on poisonous substances, and he has never gotten into their cabinets.


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## goldrose (Jan 14, 2003)

Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"
By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Why would you copy and paste your last post? Did you even read the replies?


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I am so sad to read this thread. Not because I support Love and Logic.. but because I am being forced to take a Love & Logic class and this thread confirmed my gut feeling about it.

DD goes to a co-operative preschool that she absolutely adores. I love it too... everything there is gentle in their way of dealing with the children, its very focused on play versus school and is completely led by what the children want to do/learn. Unfortunately one of the parental requrements is a Love and Logic class.







I went to the first class and had a sinking feeling in my stomach that I would completely disagree with this class. I even talked to Kyla's teacher about it asking if there was something I could do to substitute for taking the class... but no go. So now I am even more upset that I have to waste my time with this class and I have to pay $105 for it... ugh. Maybe I can insert some UP ideas into discussions and get the teachers interested in that theory instead.... have to find a bright lining somehow.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
IMaybe I can insert some UP ideas into discussions and get the teachers interested in that theory instead.... have to find a bright lining somehow.









Great idea! I hope you'll get to do it


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
I am so sad to read this thread. Not because I support Love and Logic.. but because I am being forced to take a Love & Logic class and this thread confirmed my gut feeling about it.

DD goes to a co-operative preschool that she absolutely adores. I love it too... everything there is gentle in their way of dealing with the children, its very focused on play versus school and is completely led by what the children want to do/learn. Unfortunately one of the parental requrements is a Love and Logic class.







I went to the first class and had a sinking feeling in my stomach that I would completely disagree with this class. I even talked to Kyla's teacher about it asking if there was something I could do to substitute for taking the class... but no go. So now I am even more upset that I have to waste my time with this class and I have to pay $105 for it... ugh. Maybe I can insert some UP ideas into discussions and get the teachers interested in that theory instead.... have to find a bright lining somehow.









I cannot believe that they dictate the class you attend AND make you pay extra for it. I am the parent ed coordinator at my son's coop. I took out any books that were not GD/AP from the school library and got rid of them. I have scheduled a GD psych to come talk. I have focused more on health and fitness than telling people which theory/process/philosophy of parenting they SHOULD adopt. I am so sorry that has been your experience.

I tried to have AK come to our school for a seminar--he is WAAAAY out of my pathetic budget. Maybe you could recommend that they do How To Talk So Your Kids Will Listen workshops next year instead.


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"
By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.

goldrose - haven't we already talked about this?

OMG







are you stuck in a Groundhog Day like experience where you have to keep reliveing that post till you do something different...







:


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
goldrose - haven't we already talked about this?

OMG







are you stuck in a Groundhog Day like experience where you have to keep reliveing that post till you do something different...







:

:LOL


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annab*
I cannot believe that they dictate the class you attend AND make you pay extra for it. I am the parent ed coordinator at my son's coop. I took out any books that were not GD/AP from the school library and got rid of them. I have scheduled a GD psych to come talk. I have focused more on health and fitness than telling people which theory/process/philosophy of parenting they SHOULD adopt. I am so sorry that has been your experience.

I tried to have AK come to our school for a seminar--he is WAAAAY out of my pathetic budget. Maybe you could recommend that they do How To Talk So Your Kids Will Listen workshops next year instead.

I know. On one hand I know why they do it... we volunteer in the classroom 2-3 times a month so they want everyone to be on the same page as to how children are treated... but Kyla has been there 3 years and never have I seen any of the techniques talked about in this thread or that I heard at the class used. So I am not sure why they chose this particular book/teaching this year.

Great idea about the how to talk so kids will listen workshops... im going to look into that!


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I think maybe this is another example of goldrose's Love and Logic technique, the one she mentioned in post #52:

Quote:

that was a love and logic tactic - YiddisheMama chose to say something a certain way, that resulted in your natural reaction, and now it's "oh well" so sad, you lost your interest.
So, she's chosen to post something idiotic, which will result in our "natural" reactions of becoming frustrated, or amused, or just losing interest - "oh well so sad". In other words, it's about jacking people around rather than having a rational conversation, and this is just another attempt at manipulation.

Dar


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

I like my idea better


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

It *was* a good one, V.!


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
I know. On one hand I know why they do it... we volunteer in the classroom 2-3 times a month so they want everyone to be on the same page as to how children are treated... but Kyla has been there 3 years and never have I seen any of the techniques talked about in this thread or that I heard at the class used. So I am not sure why they chose this particular book/teaching this year.

Well, looking at their website it appears that the Love & Logic folks are creating a little industry for themselves.

And I understand these classes get taught all over the place, so I bet they have a marketing machine.

It creeps me out. I feel a little dirty after looking at their webiste.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
Kids just don't get credited with the ability to discriminate one situation from another.









Exactly! My aunt painted my 3 year old cousins bedroom with that special paint that you can color on with crayons and it washes off, my 3 year old cousin knows that she can color on HER walls but not Mama's walls. I love that idea and DH and I plan on doing the same thing with our kids.


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

For everyone who suggested I learn more about GD I am open to learn. Our family used to rent a furnished apartment and tearing up the house just wasn't an option, so when people say "Things are less important than people, if the wall gets colored so what" I still have a hard time understanding even tho we have recently moved into our first house.

I always considered my approaches gentle but I did come in here and read when I first joined MDC and feel that I have a more rigorous approach. DD is 2. I don't expect her to be an adult. In fact that's why I realize she usualy doesnt get that her actions have consequences!. Like, if she throws a screaming fit in the store, we have one warning and then a time out in the parking lot or car (together not her alone) in deep winters. Or if she hits someone during a play date there is one warning and the play date ends.

Remarkibly we do not have problems with either of those things any more.

Now I know that a time out is not the "natural" consequence of a screaming fit but DD doesnt understand "Don't do that because Mommy is humiliated and people think you're a rotten child" yet and I'm not sure I want her to. We just don't throw fit's in public!

Ok I feel like I've rambled forever but I am always up for learning new approaches I just feel kind of judged when I read in here someone saying they don't like time out or naughty step so I have stayed out.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

MInky, if it helps at all, I was once a Love and Logic fan. Then I came here (this site, not this thread in particular) and started lurking, and now I see why this book isn't GD. I was parented in such an opposite fashion, that basically anything that wasn't yelling seemed like GD to me.

My oldest is not yet three, so I never implemented any L&L techniques (I read it two years ago). I'm grateful to have learnt much from coming here, and I can see how GD is a much better perspective. Though it's taken a LOT for me to "get" GD and practice it, I am eternally grateful for the wisdom and experience of the MDC mamas!

So keep coming and lurk often. I can totally understand why someone would initially think that L&L is gentle, especially if one comes from a background that was anything but gentle!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldrose*
Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"
By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.


Goldrose, are you looking for a specific reaction to this scenario from a love and logic basher????? Here is mine:

For a child under 4: Oh, no! Honey we can not color on the walls! Only on paper!

For a child over 5 til about age 7: "Mara (or whatever your child's name is) you know that you are not allowed to color on the walls. You know you are only supposed to color on paper. What made you do that?"

For a person 8 and older (including my husband) "What in the world did you do to this wall and why?"

maybe not a 'gentle as some" but still not requring punishemnt.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
For everyone who suggested I learn more about GD I am open to learn. Our family used to rent a furnished apartment and tearing up the house just wasn't an option, so when people say "Things are less important than people, if the wall gets colored so what" I still have a hard time understanding even tho we have recently moved into our first house.

I really need to get to bed, but I just wanted to offer a slightly different wording on that statement, because I think it might clarify the position that a lot of people on this board are holding. (At least I think a lot of people are probably holding it...I know I am, and it's the feeling I've gotten from other members, but I shouldn't speak for others without their input! :LOL) Anyway, my take on it would be more like, "Things are less important than people. If the wall gets colored *during the process of my child learning not to color on the walls*, it's not a big deal." I'm not saying that I'm fine with having toddler drawings all over my walls. It's certainly not, "Well, honey, if that's how you want to express yourself, then I don't feel like I can stop you." It's more like an internal, "He's about to color on the wall!", a spoken, "Where do we color? Let's get some paper," and a later use of the Magic Eraser on the wall if he made a mark before I intervened. My reaction to it is more like I would react to dh being less than careful while moving furniture and causing a mark on the wall than if vandals had broken into the house.

In actuality, all of this has been academic for several months. We moved into this house in June, and the last time ds drew on the wall was in our old house. Of course, he goes out to a nearby overpass with a spray can of paint pretty often, but, well, kids will be kids.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
Of course, he goes out to a nearby overpass with a spray can of paint pretty often, but, well, kids will be kids.










Thanks a lot. You just made pinot grigio come out my nose.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
In fact that's why I realize she usualy doesnt get that her actions have consequences!. Like, if she throws a screaming fit in the store, we have one warning and then a time out in the parking lot or car (together not her alone) in deep winters. Or if she hits someone during a play date there is one warning and the play date ends.

Remarkibly we do not have problems with either of those things any more.

Now I know that a time out is not the "natural" consequence of a screaming fit but DD doesnt understand "Don't do that because Mommy is humiliated and people think you're a rotten child" yet and I'm not sure I want her to. We just don't throw fit's in public!

Minky, I'm new to GD, too, and I think since studying up on it, I've had a (welcome) change in my views on parenting. Before discovering the idea that you don't have to punish, my dh and I talked about time-out because we knew we didn't want to spank, and we didn't really like the idea of it, but we just didn't want to let our children "get away with it."

I've read some books that really changed my perspective. The first was The Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolf. It made me think about punishment in a whole new way, as a kind of an out for your kid, like a trade. So it works for a while, but not in the way you think. Like your dd hits, so she sits on the naughty step. But maybe the act of sending her there makes her really mad at you, so she spends the whole time thinking about you and how mean you are to her, or maybe she feels really guilty and bad about herself, or maybe she feels like she can just trade a hit for the time on the step, or try not to get caught. I'm not explaining this very well, but like the pp said, it's kind of a relief to let go of that worry that you're letting your child "get away with something" and that you should be "teaching them a lesson." And if someone thinks they're a brat because they're upset and have a meltdown in the parking lot, it's okay. Because what your child is learning when you respond with empathy and kindness is way better in the long run.

I hope that didn't sound judgmental, I definitely don't want to be because I'm not very good at this and new to it, but it sure has improved the harmony in our household.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Minky, I'm new to GD, too, and I think since studying up on it, I've had a (welcome) change in my views on parenting. Before discovering the idea that you don't have to punish, my dh and I talked about time-out because we knew we didn't want to spank, and we didn't really like the idea of it, but we just didn't want to let our children "get away with it."

I've read some books that really changed my perspective. The first was The Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolf. It made me think about punishment in a whole new way, as a kind of an out for your kid, like a trade. So it works for a while, but not in the way you think. Like your dd hits, so she sits on the naughty step. But maybe the act of sending her there makes her really mad at you, so she spends the whole time thinking about you and how mean you are to her, or maybe she feels really guilty and bad about herself, or maybe she feels like she can just trade a hit for the time on the step, or try not to get caught. I'm not explaining this very well, but like the pp said, it's kind of a relief to let go of that worry that you're letting your child "get away with something" and that you should be "teaching them a lesson." And if someone thinks they're a brat because they're upset and have a meltdown in the parking lot, it's okay. Because what your child is learning when you respond with empathy and kindness is way better in the long run.

I hope that didn't sound judgmental, I definitely don't want to be because I'm not very good at this and new to it, but it sure has improved the harmony in our household.

Wow, that sounds like an excellent book. I'll add it to my list







:

~Nay


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zipworth*
Just wanted to add.....

I have read this whole thread! It has turned ugly in spots but is a facinating debate that I have come across many, many, times in my job as an early childhood educator. Without rambling into oblivion about child psychology and developmentally appropriate expectations for children, my experience as an early childhood educator and as a parent has helped me learn a few things.

1) Children respond to genuine emotions expressed genuinely, and do not respond well in the long term to being manipulated. Nor do adults. Just because we are older and'wiser' doesn't make it o.k. to try to trick them. I don't like it when people do this to me-it's just disrespectful. Sying things like "That's so sad" when something isn't sad just is false. Frustrating maybe? But then, that's your problem. I know a lot of daycare teachers who used this tactic on children and it was kind of rediculous to watch. Some children responded to it by complying the first few times, but then most rejected that form of manipulation by exhibiting even more extreme behaviours.

2) Imposing consequences that make no sense-just makes no sense yk? My son is a very slow eater. If I had to be somewhere and he hadn't finished eating I would explain the situation to him and let him choose a snack to bring along. I would do the same thing for myself if the situation were reversed.

3) Preserving the dignity of the child is so important. No, they are not little adults cognitively, but they have the same emotions as us. They have rights too! Just because were are adults doesn't mean that our needs and emotions are more important. My son doen't have the same amount of information that I do about life, but his feelings matter to me deeply. If he refuses to put clothes on and it is really cold in our house (our house is chilly in the mornings) I try to respect that but I have his clothes nearby in case he changes his mind, which he almost always does.

4) Someday these children will be taking care of US when we are old and feeble! Do we really want them to learn the way to care for someone is to coerce and manipulate??? I don't want Liam saying to me...."Sorry mom, but you were too slow eating your lunch so you'll have to wait 4 hours till dinner is served. Maybe next time you'll be faster."???

5) I have worked for ten years with children under 6. I started off using a lot of manipulation because I didn't know any other way. I still have some days when my brain isn't working and slip back into the occasional coercive tactic, but I try very hard to be as respectful and concious of the child's emotions as I possibly can. I can tell you that it is way more difficult but infinitely more rewarding to work with and love small children while respecting their emotions and humanity. And people really are more important than things.

I will have to read Parenting with Love and Logic before I can comment on it.........

Sorry for this long, rambling, somewhat off topic post
























: I like the way you stated this. And as a caregiver for aging senior citizens before becoming a mama, I think you make a good point in #4 about how these things come full circle.

And as for your point #5 - I totally agree.







I wasn't going to come back to this thread at first, but now I'm glad I did.


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## YiddisheMama (Dec 23, 2002)

B"H

Just for the record, we are a non-vaxing, home-birthing, breast feeding (my 11 month old is still exclusively breastfed), tandem nursing (my 3 year old is still nursing), home schooling, cloth diapering, co-sleeping, organic foods family.

my understanding of love and logic must be different from the way others on this forum understand it. i view it as gentle discipline, and therefore am comfortable using it. there's no yelling involved, no degrading, no punishing, no humiliation, no hitting...just calm words of literally love and logic. i recommend anyone who has not read it to read the book before coming to conclusions. but if you're working with small children, *don't get "Parenting with Love and Logic", as that is geared for older children*. the love and logic book for younger kids is called *"Love and Logic Magic for Early Childhood."* and that's the book i'd recommend.

lots of luck to everyone with raising their children to be good, healthy, responsibile human beings!


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## cyclemama (Mar 8, 2003)

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I wanted to jump in because, having struggled with food issues as a teen, I'm also very concerned about the earlier posts involving hunger and meal times.

For those who are drawn to the responsibility aspect of Love & Logic, there are alternate ways to teach your children to be responsible when it comes to food and hunger and taking care of their own bodies. Sometimes my four-year-old doesn't eat well at meals because he's wound up from earlier activities, or excited about upcoming events, or stressed or excited about having a dinner guest at the table, or not feeling well, etc. I find this perfectly normal in both children and adults. However, I also understand that as parents with a lot of responsibilities, we can't always stop everything and remake a meal because a child didn't eat well an hour earlier at meal time.

One solution (which is probably obvious to some, but not all) is to have a lot of healthy food within reach that the child is free to get for himself and snack on at any time. We have a low pantry shelf where I keep Corn Chex cereal, Cheerios or Oatios, bananas, apples, raisins, etc. Also on a low shelf in the refrigerator we keep washed grapes, cut up melon, etc. So anytime DS is hungry, he goes and fixes his own snack and brings it to his little table to eat. I refuse to reheat anything or pour anything, but I always help out with opening a container, peeling an apple, or spreading a little jelly on a piece of wheat bread. He is responsible for closing up the containers best he can, returning things to their proper place, and putting his dirty plate and utensils by the sink.

This approach works well for us and is a good way to teach him responsibility for his body. Specifically, he learns to recognize his body's hunger cues, and then independently takes the steps necessary to act on those cues. (And teaching boys to become self-sufficient in the kitchen is an added perk.)

We are also big on the phrase "just in case." If we are going out for awhile and he hasn't eaten well that day, I'll say something like, "we might have a lot of fun at the park and want to stay for a long time. What if we get hungry? Should we take something to eat just in case?" He'll agree and go get a snack and put it in his backpack. We do the same thing with clothing and outerwear. If I explain that it gets pretty cold when the sun goes down, he'll decide to put some mittens or a heavier coat, or whatever, in his backpack "just in case." At first I had to do a lot of suggesting and prompting, but now he is learning that he is responsible for taking care of his body by making sure it is warm enough, or cool enough, and well fed. I help out with the planning ahead part because I'm the one who has read the weather forecast and has a sense of time. He is always very proud of himself when it turns out that he needs the mittens or the banana he packed.

I'm sure there will come a time later when he is without a much-needed banana or pair of mittens. And he'll learn responsibility from those experiences, too. But for now, I am trying to teach him to be responsible for his body in a very supportive way.

I know that the "make your snack at anytime" approach seems foreign to those who have used scheduled feeding times from birth. It seems much more natural to us that fed on demand. Call me crazy, but I am concerned that controlling a child's access to food can contribute to eating disorders in later life. There are other ways to teach responsibility regarding our bodies, if that's your goal.

Cyclemama


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cyclemama*
At the risk of beating a dead horse, I wanted to jump in because, having struggled with food issues as a teen, I'm also very concerned about the earlier posts involving hunger and meal times.

For those who are drawn to the responsibility aspect of Love & Logic, there are alternate ways to teach your children to be responsible when it comes to food and hunger and taking care of their own bodies. Sometimes my four-year-old doesn't eat well at meals because he's wound up from earlier activities, or excited about upcoming events, or stressed or excited about having a dinner guest at the table, or not feeling well, etc. I find this perfectly normal in both children and adults. However, I also understand that as parents with a lot of responsibilities, we can't always stop everything and remake a meal because a child didn't eat well an hour earlier at meal time.

One solution (which is probably obvious to some, but not all) is to have a lot of healthy food within reach that the child is free to get for himself and snack on at any time. We have a low pantry shelf where I keep Corn Chex cereal, Cheerios or Oatios, bananas, apples, raisins, etc. Also on a low shelf in the refrigerator we keep washed grapes, cut up melon, etc. So anytime DS is hungry, he goes and fixes his own snack and brings it to his little table to eat. I refuse to reheat anything or pour anything, but I always help out with opening a container, peeling an apple, or spreading a little jelly on a piece of wheat bread. He is responsible for closing up the containers best he can, returning things to their proper place, and putting his dirty plate and utensils by the sink.

This approach works well for us and is a good way to teach him responsibility for his body. Specifically, he learns to recognize his body's hunger cues, and then independently takes the steps necessary to act on those cues. (And teaching boys to become self-sufficient in the kitchen is an added perk.)

We are also big on the phrase "just in case." If we are going out for awhile and he hasn't eaten well that day, I'll say something like, "we might have a lot of fun at the park and want to stay for a long time. What if we get hungry? Should we take something to eat just in case?" He'll agree and go get a snack and put it in his backpack. We do the same thing with clothing and outerwear. If I explain that it gets pretty cold when the sun goes down, he'll decide to put some mittens or a heavier coat, or whatever, in his backpack "just in case." At first I had to do a lot of suggesting and prompting, but now he is learning that he is responsible for taking care of his body by making sure it is warm enough, or cool enough, and well fed. I help out with the planning ahead part because I'm the one who has read the weather forecast and has a sense of time. He is always very proud of himself when it turns out that he needs the mittens or the banana he packed.

I'm sure there will come a time later when he is without a much-needed banana or pair of mittens. And he'll learn responsibility from those experiences, too. But for now, I am trying to teach him to be responsible for his body in a very supportive way.

I know that the "make your snack at anytime" approach seems foreign to those who have used scheduled feeding times from birth. It seems much more natural to us that fed on demand. Call me crazy, but I am concerned that controlling a child's access to food can contribute to eating disorders in later life. There are other ways to teach responsibility regarding our bodies, if that's your goal.

Cyclemama









: Wonderful post mama. Any nutritionist worth their money and time would say the exact same thing.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annab*
Thanks a lot. You just made pinot grigio come out my nose.










:LOL

This post also answers a question from another thread about whether it's ok to drink alone. With MDC one never need drink alone.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

get post Cyclemama. I meant to comment on the food thing too. I have struggled with my weight all my adultlife because of the eat everything on your plate ideas. Also with the if you don't eat it your brother will stuff. I NEVER withhold food or use it as a weapon. In fact my dd told me that the principle at their school won't let them leave lunch till they eat everything on the plate (and they control the portions). I told dd that she did not have to eat and that I would talk to the principle. The next day I asked if the principle had said that again and she said "yes, but I told her that she was going to give me an eating disorder" and she didn't get forced to eat anymore.

V.


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## YiddisheMama (Dec 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riotkrrn*
Withholding food in order to teach a lesson is punishment.
Withholding affection in order to teach a lesson is punishment.
Forcing a child to promise to "act sweet" in order to get what she wants is degrading.


i'm not sure where you get the idea that i withhold food from my children. my kids are very well fed and they eat when they're hungry. this is exactly what i meant when i said we're understanding things differently.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
i'm not sure where you get the idea that i withhold food from my children. my kids are very well fed and they eat when they're hungry. this is exactly what i meant when i said we're understanding things differently.

Didn't you say that if they didn't eat within a "reasonable" time limit, then they didn't get to eat until the next meal? (or was that a different poster?)


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
my understanding of love and logic must be different from the way others on this forum understand it. i view it as gentle discipline, and therefore am comfortable using it. there's no yelling involved, no degrading, no punishing, no humiliation, no hitting...just calm words of literally love and logic. i recommend anyone who has not read it to read the book before coming to conclusions. but if you're working with small children, *don't get "Parenting with Love and Logic", as that is geared for older children*. the love and logic book for younger kids is called *"Love and Logic Magic for Early Childhood."* and that's the book i'd recommend.

YiddisheMama, I want to jump to your defense. I think the example of your four year old coloring on the wall was wonderful. For the poster who said their heart ached at the thought of the little girl scrubbing away while her mother knew all the time it wouldn't work, I would wonder how the little girl would have felt if her mom had shot down her suggestion with a "No, honey, that won't work. That's permanent marker, it won't come off." I see no cruelty in letting a child try something for themselves, especially since she came up with the original solution (cleaning it) herself.

I think one of the best things you can do for your child is to let them figure things out for themselves, but I agree there is a fine line between teaching self-reliance and making your child feel they have no support. It's hard for anyone, and I thought that YiddisheMama's example was great.

I'm not going to record my views here on vaccination, co-sleeping, shaving or organic foods, because I don't want it to unduly sway someone's opinion of my post.


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## BostonMama17 (Feb 4, 2004)

I agree with the previous poster who said that many adults don't give children enough credit. I'm amazed at my two+ year old's capacity for empathy when presented with a genuine expression of disappointment or concern. I also think children appreciate beauty and order in their world. Our home incoporates a lot of montessori philosophy--low shelves, child-sized versions of household items, etc.--and I see my role as a kind of architect and facilitator. My son is empowered (not bribed or coerced) to do a lot for himself, which helps him develop a sense of respect for his environment and frees me up to plan fun activities that we both enjoy. He can help himself to healthy snacks on "his" shelf in the fridge. He gets a bowl from "his" drawer, scoops "his" cereal out of a container on "his" shelf in the pantry...you get the idea. It blows my mind what he's willing and able to do when given the tools and opportunity. He even has access to--gasp--the art supplies, which are only allowed in the study. I painted a wall for him with chalkboard paint and we hang his artwork all over the house at child's-eye level, so he's never drawn on the walls. He did draw on the beige couch once with crayons. I explained why that upset mommy, redirected him to the paper in the study, and bought a cheap, colorful throw for the sofa.

I often explain while we're picking up toys or putting away shoes why we do these apparently arbitrary and silly things--so someone won't trip and fall, or so you can find your toys again later, etc. You can learn a lot about yourself, what really matters to you, and what isn't worth getting worked up about by doing this. I just don't think the middle of a meltdown is the right time to reason with him. Discipline is so much more about parents than about children. Because I'm always in control of myself and my reactions, I don't perceive non-compliance as a threat to my authority that needs to be corrected through punishment or training. I'm no expert, but when I ask my toddler to put on his coat and, after a moment of thought, he looks me in the eye and says calmly, "no, thank you" I know I'm doing something right.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BostonMama17*
I'm no expert, but when I ask my toddler to put on his coat and, after a moment of thought, he looks me in the eye and says calmly, "no, thank you" I know I'm doing something right.


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## YiddisheMama (Dec 23, 2002)

b'h

thank you natensarah for understanding my post and not taking it out of context.

but let me give you another real live example and get an opinion.

also when my daughter was four...she emptied a saltshaker onto the carpet. when i came in and saw it, here's how the conversation went.

me: uh oh, this is so sad, salt doesn't belong on the carpet. what are you going to do about it?

her: well, maybe you can vacuum it?

me: i like to vacuum messes i make.

her (all excited): so can i vacuum?

me: that's a suggestion.

she took the vacuum cleaner out of the closet, by herself, asked me to help her plug it in, (which i did of course), she turned it on, cleaned the mess, and then exclaimed, "look ma, i cleaned it all up by myself!!!"

see what she figured out on her own with no yelling, no spanking, no punishing etc...

(yes, she vacuumed a mess for all the arguments forthcoming. that was not a punishment. it was her way of figuring out a solution to a challenge that she caused.)

and we ended up happy and smiling. i didn't remind her or say things like, "see what happens when you make a mess" etc....

but when dh got home she ran to him to tell him what had happened and she ended with, :i'm so proud of myself for vacuuming all by myself!!"

is this not gentle discipline?


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

that sounds like something I would do. BUT if you let her attempt to vacumm for 20 minutes using a broken vacumm before telling her about the new one in the closet, then it would be wrong. Or if you said that she made you said and that she had to go to her room till she stopped spilling things, not so good.

I hope you remembered to tell her to throw a pince over her shoulder


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

The repeated use of, "This is so sad" makes me feel depressed.

Spills happen, stuff breaks, etc. etc.--It doesn't have to make my home a somber place where we're always declaring sadness.

Re. the 4 yr. cleaning the wall, there's lots of alternatives betw. standing back and watching your child learn the hard way, and shooting down their idea from the get-go.

As Dar said, the whole thing seems mighty manipulative and the examples here have left me cold.

I'm much more into helping my kid along the way than making them learn life lessons for the sake of learning them.

....off to confiscate the spray paint from the 4 mo. old....


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JamesMama*
Exactly! My aunt painted my 3 year old cousins bedroom with that special paint that you can color on with crayons and it washes off, my 3 year old cousin knows that she can color on HER walls but not Mama's walls. I love that idea and DH and I plan on doing the same thing with our kids.

what is this stuff called?
does it just work on crayons?

on the whole painting on the walls issue...
when my sister and i grew up paper was a luxury item.
my mom let us paint on the walls(and she was soooo *NOT* gd)
we were raised in apartments, i have no clue if she had to pay or any of the official stuff since i was a child. but i remember the scraping the painting the spackle and so forth we always did before we moved. youd never know we had been painting the walls the whole time if you looked.
art was always very important to my mom. some of my earliest happy memories with her are talking to her as she drew elaborate island scenes in the hallways...








now ive got my own baby i let her draw on the walls, but the house were living in is going to be torn down after we move. and if by some odd reason it isnt(its time has come and gone) ill scrape and paint and spackle like my mom did. the first thing i did when we moved in was attempt to paint a garden scene on the bedroom wall







there are rabbits on the front room wall and various colourful scribbles around the front door. at first my ex had a fit but now hes realizing its really not a big deal. he sees that even though shes not even 2 yet she does understand and wont draw on anyone elses walls, and she has had many opportunities.
and i certaintly am not a graffiti artist, and i dont draw on other peoples walls now







even though white walls drive me crazy...
but those are just my values, and its like a family tradition.

im really extremely relaxed and low interventive, and i think that has helped my daughter to not be running around wild. i think thats more common in children who are not used to freedom, they have no clue what to do with themselves in that situation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
Now I know that a time out is not the "natural" consequence of a screaming fit but DD doesnt understand "Don't do that because Mommy is humiliated and people think you're a rotten child" yet and I'm not sure I want her to. We just don't throw fit's in public!

Ok I feel like I've rambled forever but I am always up for learning new approaches I just feel kind of judged when I read in here someone saying they don't like time out or naughty step so I have stayed out.

it feels like alot of people feel the need to punish thier children to appease other people, but it doesnt matter what those other people think.
quite frankly i rarely ever give a thought to anyone who has witnessed cassandra having a tantrum. i dont care what they think of my parenting, it can only cause harm if they matter to you more or as much as your obviously upset child. i think it would be helpful to just not care what people think about your parenting, easier said than done i know. if people think your child is rotten who care what they think? you know its not true. you have no reason to be humiliated. rethink that whole stance becase you dont have to say something to your child to say it ykwim?
its easy to feel judged but it really does no good. my mantra seems to be "if you know youre doing the absolute best for your child then you have no reason to feel bad" but there is also so much room to change and make things better because there is always growth in this process. if enough people on this board think somethings bad i usually look into it and find i agree(not always but usually) maybe the naughty step isnt a good idea? maybe time out isnt either? its good to always keep your mind open to the possibility.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
b'h

thank you natensarah for understanding my post and not taking it out of context.

but let me give you another real live example and get an opinion.

also when my daughter was four...she emptied a saltshaker onto the carpet. when i came in and saw it, here's how the conversation went.

me: uh oh, this is so sad, salt doesn't belong on the carpet. what are you going to do about it?

her: well, maybe you can vacuum it?

me: i like to vacuum messes i make.

her (all excited): so can i vacuum?

me: that's a suggestion.

she took the vacuum cleaner out of the closet, by herself, asked me to help her plug it in, (which i did of course), she turned it on, cleaned the mess, and then exclaimed, "look ma, i cleaned it all up by myself!!!"

see what she figured out on her own with no yelling, no spanking, no punishing etc...

(yes, she vacuumed a mess for all the arguments forthcoming. that was not a punishment. it was her way of figuring out a solution to a challenge that she caused.)

and we ended up happy and smiling. i didn't remind her or say things like, "see what happens when you make a mess" etc....

but when dh got home she ran to him to tell him what had happened and she ended with, :i'm so proud of myself for vacuuming all by myself!!"

is this not gentle discipline?

I just want to clarify something. I think some posters are getting YiddisheMama mixed upwith goldrose. goldrose is the poster who used the early example of her daughter procrastinating and playing when she wanted her DD to put her jammies on. I think YiddisheMama's examples are fairly gentle sounding.

I think saying "this is so sad" in the right way is entirely different from saying "that makes me so sad". It would be easy to misuse the first phrase and turn it into the 2nd phrase.

Here's a question for you YiddisheMama - so what would you do if your daughter figures out that she enjoys vacuuming and starts spilling things just so she can vacuum them up? This is what my DS currently does.







He's younger than your DD is, he's 22 months.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I think saying "this is so sad" in the right way is entirely different from saying "that makes me so sad". It would be easy to misuse the first phrase and turn it into the 2nd phrase.

I think a large part of my issue with saying "this is so sad" is that I'm doubting the sincerity of it. When ds is behaving in a way that's challenging for me, I may feel frustrated, or angry, or even (in those self-doubting irrational moments) afraid that he'll never learn not to do whatever he's doing, but it's just not a *sad* situation, kwim? It just doesn't seem genuine to me. Instead, it seems to be a cue for the child to anticipate a consequence/express remorse.

Quote:

Here's a question for you YiddisheMama - so what would you do if your daughter figures out that she enjoys vacuuming and starts spilling things just so she can vacuum them up? This is what my DS currently does.







He's younger than your DD is, he's 22 months.
I was thinking the same thing! :LOL I can just see ds vacuuming for 3-4 hours a day. I don't have a problem with the vacuuming-up-the-salt scenario, except for the "this is so sad," which just doesn't seem to add much other than kind of announcing, "I am now going to use Love and Logic!"


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## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Newbie here.

I was asked to read "Love and Logic" by a family I worked for as a nanny years ago. Didn't find it useful with that family at all. Mom always wanted the kids dressed and brushed and combed etc., and I could never justify trying to use 'natural consequences' when their messy hair or weird clothes did not actually have natural consequences.

I did and do use their principal of giving choices.

We had a four yo living with us (DH and I are expecting our first, but we've had a couple friends living with us, including the four year old for the past yr and 2 yo and a 12 yo for several months)nayway the 4 yr old is a junk food junkie. She'll refuse to eat stuff when I'm serving dinner and then go to her mom and beg for and get junk food. I resorted to the nonsensical choices that L&L advocates: Do you want to use the panda plate or the tiger plate? Do you want to eat the carrots first or the meat?

She's a smart kid and she knows the choices are nonsensical, but it gives her someplace to go other than compliance/refusal. Often she'll reject my choices: No, I want the elephant plate, or I'm gonna eat the apple first. That's ok too.

So what i'm triyng to say is that some bits of it can be useful. In fact I've that a lot of it *can* be useful and gentle. IMO, most of it is too hard to use gently and so often simply ends up wioth trying to convince the kid that an unnatrual consequence is natural. Some things will irritate me, and the kids know that. I don't try to convicne them that that is 'natural'

Hrm, now that I think about it, I wonder if that might not have beeen from a different book. *shrug*


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
The repeated use of, "This is so sad" makes me feel depressed.

Spills happen, stuff breaks, etc. etc.--It doesn't have to make my home a somber place where we're always declaring sadness.

So true! There's a LOT that is sad in this world. People dying qualifies in my book, something spilled does not.


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## YiddisheMama (Dec 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*

Here's a question for you YiddisheMama - so what would you do if your daughter figures out that she enjoys vacuuming and starts spilling things just so she can vacuum them up? This is what my DS currently does.







He's younger than your DD is, he's 22 months.

I'd use a different tactic, if I have time tomorrow I'll post details. On the way to bed now. My daughter actually does like to vacuum, but she doesn't make a mess intentionally to do it. However, whenever I'm vacuuming, I will let her do some of it. My 3 year old daughter though, loves to spill stuff just to watch it drip off the counter














But she also knows how to take care of it - on her own own, she goes to the linen closet, gets a towel, cleans it up, and hangs up the towel.

Kids will be kids!!


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I think the vacuuming idea was great. You solved the problem together and your DD had fun. If she starts doing it on purpose, well, then you need to work on that, but oh well! I don't think you should NOT have "fun" fixing something because you're worried that the solution will become the problem! (Not saying you said this, YM!)

I'd just leave out the word "sad" next time, personally!

And hey, it sounds like you have someone ready to vacuum for you from now on! (Can she come to my house?







)


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poxybat*
what is this stuff called?
does it just work on crayons?

Hey! I'm not sure...I think it's kids paint, I'm pretty sure she got it at Home Depot or Menards or somewhere like that. It works with crayons cuz I've seen my cousin draw all over the wall, it just comes off with soap and water (and a little elbow grease)


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Three words people: Crayola Washable Crayons. THEY ROCK. Washes off with water from walls, furniture, clothing... etc. I've experimented :LOL


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
is this not gentle discipline?

It certainly is, except for the "uh oh so sad" part as others commented. However, I do not think that this is especially challenging behaviour. The real issue is what to do when they say, "You clean this" and run away. Of course, this is not good behaviour. What would you do about that?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I think saying "this is so sad" in the right way is entirely different from saying "that makes me so sad". It would be easy to misuse the first phrase and turn it into the 2nd phrase.

I agree, I think it's weird to say that it's sad when accidents happen. But I think it's more likely that these children would just have a strange idea of what "sad" means than thinking it is truly sad. I don't feel sad when I spill something, irritated or something is better, but maybe these mamas don't want to say, "This is so irritating." What do the Love and Logic-ers have against, "Whoops!" Or is "This is so sad" part of the "training"?

I wouldn't use "Uh-oh" like GoldRose uses it, to cue your child in that their doing something unacceptable and are shortly going to experience some repercussions.


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## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

Our school district likes Love and Logic, but as usual I got better advice here. Oh and coloring on walls - I got sharpie off the wall with the MAGIC ERASER by mr clean. I was so impressed.


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## jaidymama (Jun 18, 2005)

I just finished reading all 8 pages and am suprised by what I have read. Like others have commented, is this really MDC??









Why are there posts attacking the two mamas who gave L&L examples... um hello... if this is the GD forum then why all the hostility? It's great to get a debate going, but aren't we all supposed to maintain a respectful decorum?? I applaud the women who gently stated their piece of mind.









I now want to say "oh how sad" when I read the posts from people who have never read the book(s) in question and are making judgements about it based on this thread and the few examples given. It's not a good idea to make decisions based on hearsay. I don't know if L&L is GD,







but I have found a few good nuggets in them. There are also some things that I don't agree with in there. But as with any parenting style, L&L ideas need to be tailored to fit you, your child, and the situation at hand.

If you haven't already, I recommend that you check out L&L so that you can draw your own conclusions based on the words straight from the "horses mouth" instead of from chaos and malice.

Ok, well I'm that's pretty much all I have to say about that. Feel free to







I'm sorry if the middle child in me couldn't keep quiet.







I remember my mom would say, "now say your sorry and mean it." :LOL :LOL

I'm sure we'll all agree that children are a precious gift. When we all wake up in the morning (or night or afternoon) we all want what's best for our child... how we go about it may be different, but I think what got lost in the discussion is we're all doing the best we can with what we have... None of us parents are perfect nor are our kids (gasp). Thanks for the other book recommendations, I'm always wanting to learn more.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*

I think saying "this is so sad" in the right way is entirely different from saying "that makes me so sad". It would be easy to misuse the first phrase and turn it into the 2nd phrase.

The book itself actually talks about tone of voice, intention of parent, etc when saying phrases like this and cautions against using it in a sarcastic or cruel way; and that kids will see right through it. The goal of saying the phrases is to help establish a common bond, not to threaten. It IS a bummer or an uh-oh when you spill your milk, but we can clean it up together or you can think of a better solution. He says you can say anything you want - but establishing communication and a "we're on the same team" are the basis for the next steps in discipline. They're not meant to be pavlovian tools for making your kids scared.

I like much of the theory in Love and Logic (choices, establishing communication, not getting sucked into power struggles) but I do have problems with many of the examples they use in the book...they don't always match. I think examples in other books are more complementary.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jaidymama*
Why are there posts attacking the two mamas who gave L&L examples... um hello... if this is the GD forum then why all the hostility? It's great to get a debate going, but aren't we all supposed to maintain a respectful decorum?? .

Yes indeed, we should maintain a respectful decorum. One of the two posters using the L&L examples asked me "what kind of a person are you". Is that a respectful thing to ask? Also, when I responded to her criticism respectfully, and with humour, I did not get any answer to any of my points. Honestly, I think it is this kind of comments made this thread sort of unpleasant.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jaidymama*
Why are there posts attacking the two mamas who gave L&L examples... um hello... if this is the GD forum then why all the hostility?

they weren't attacked, they were disagreed with. that's sort of what we do on a discussion board.


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

:

Some posters, myself included, feel that L+L sounds manipulative and not very GD, but I don't remember any attacking going on in that direction. The stuff Gaialice mentioned, yes.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Jaidymama, none of the non-L & L -loving moms suggested that the parenting techniques of the L & L-loving moms would lead their children to eating nothing but junk, growing up to be graffitti artists and having completely trashed houses.


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## jaidymama (Jun 18, 2005)

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear... It is my observation that there are posts on both sides of this issue that got out of hand.

Don't be mistaken, I too think that it is good to have healthy debates. And I did read posts that contributed to that end. However, I did read comments that seemed more like potshots than constructive input.








"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Wow, I hadn't checked out this thread in a few days - what a lot has gone on!

YiddisheMama, I was quite comfortable with your examples (the response to the colouring on the walls, and the vacuuming of the salt) - I know that by 4 kids are often really into problem-solving, and that's a great skill to facilitate in them. You didn't leave her all alone to figure out how to fix it "or else", and you offered some prompts and suggestions. I think that's fairly empowering.

When my stepdaughter was about 6, she wanted to use the changeroom all by herself when she went to a program. She did so, then left a brand-new item of clothing behind. It was stolen. She was in tears after, afraid I'd be mad because I had bought said item. I didn't get angry, but I helped her to problem-solve. We discussed how she had thought she was ready for the responsibility of using the changeroom herself, but that it hadn't worked out. She came up with suggestions about reminders to herself not to forget her things next time, and designed a special bag for her things, on the understanding that if she didn't forget anything for a certain period of time and felt ready for the responsibility, she could then use the changeroom on her own again. Her natural consequence was needing to re-think how to take care of her things, and only take on responsibility she was ready for. The natural consequence for her dad and I was that we bought her the item of clothing again, because really it was not that smart of us to let her use the changeroom on her own without reminding her of a safe way to deal with her stuff. That part was 'our bad.' (Kind of like buying a cream-coloured leather sofa if you have a 2 year old - duh!)

The 'oh so sad' I have major issues with. I want my children to learn to recognize, identify, and respond appropriately to a range of genuine emotions. If everything gets subsumed into being "sad", with only one expected response, I would be concerned about them growing up misidentifying their own and others' emotions. This can lead to being manipulated or manipulating, or simply not good at 'reading' situations.

My 4 year old is an ace at reading and expressing emotions, largely because we try to express ourselves genuinely, and with a rich vocabulary. She blew me away the other day when I was actually trying to be patient as she was eating slowly, but I was getting kind of bored and knew the food was getting cold - she said "mommy, please don't be frustrated because I'm eating slow!" I was really impressed that, despite my best efforts, she could correctly identify my feelings. We cleared the air, and things were better.


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## YiddisheMama (Dec 23, 2002)

b'h

one more example - this one is real "natural consequences."

this happened about a month and a half ago. my kids were playing in the splash pool in the backyard, in their clothing, and eventually decided to take off their shoes and whatever else............

when they came inside later, my 5 year old left her tights outside. i decided not to remind her about it, not to nag...and just see when she'd remember. it never occurred to me that what happened next would happen.

we were at the dinner table, and my 5 year old was facing the window to the backyard. in middle of eating, she looked outside and let out a shriek. it took me and dh a few moments to figure out what had happened.

a squirrel had come and was grasping her tights.

_her: waaa!! the squirrrel has my tights!! waaa!! i want my tights!_

i picked her up, she just needed mommy to hold her while she was going through this traumatic experience.

_me: wow, i'll bet that makes you pretty upset. what do you want to do about that?

her: waaa!! as soon as he puts them down, i'm *quickly* going to run outside and *quickly* get my tights and *quickly* run back inside!

me: oh._

then we watched as the sqirrel put the tights in his mouth and ran off. now between me and you, she's got plenty of tights, and i really didn't care if these were no longer in existance, especially because they probably had holes in them now from the squirrel. but my daughter did mind.

_her: mommy, look! the squirrel took my tights with him! *he's eating them! mommy!!!*

me: hmm, i wonder if it tastes good. what do you think?

her: *no!* tights are not food, it doesn't taste good. i wish the squirrel would bring my tights back.

me: yeah, it's sad and upsetting to be missing stuff.

her: yeah, i'm never *ever ever* gonna leave my tights outside again!

me: oh, that sounds like a way to make sure squirrels won't get them again.

her: yeah! i don't want squirrels to eat my tights again._

that was it, coversation over. she came to her own conclusion, learned the lesson all by herself about not leaving her stuff outside, without any badgering, nagging, reminding, or "see what happends when you don't put your stuff away."

we avoided all of that.

and...she's never left anything outside since then.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Much better example YM. See now that's a story I can totally get behind and agree with.

Plus I'm still picturing a squirrel with a pair of tights in his mouth making a get away. :LOL


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

i'm wondering about the natural consequences to the poor squirrel's tummy.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
i'm wondering about the natural consequences to the poor squirrel's tummy.









How true. Poor squirrel is learning a lesson he or she won't soon forget.


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

mama squirell: what's wrong baby?

baby: my tummy hurts

mama: why does it hurt

baby: I ate that girls tights

mama: AGAIN?

baby: I know!

mama: it makes me sad that you have a tummy ache

baby: me too! I'm never going to eat tights again (inside head: unless I cut them up into small pieces and eat them over a few days)

mama: lesson learned little s. NOW GET OUT THERE AND COLLECT MORE NUTS, DO YOU THINK THAT HOLE IN THE TREE WILL FILL ITSELF?


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## YiddisheMama (Dec 23, 2002)

b'h

i thought it was pretty funny. of course i won't tell my daughter that.

and when she sees a random squirrel (anywhere, not just here at home) she often says, "maybe that's the squirel that ate my tights."


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
mama squirell: what's wrong baby?

baby: my tummy hurts

mama: why does it hurt

baby: I ate that girls tights

mama: AGAIN?

baby: I know!

mama: it makes me sad that you have a tummy ache

baby: me too! I'm never going to eat tights again (inside head: unless I cut them up into small pieces and eat them over a few days)

mama: lesson learned little s. NOW GET OUT THERE AND COLLECT MORE NUTS, DO YOU THINK THAT HOLE IN THE TREE WILL FILL ITSELF?

:LOL :LOL :LOL


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
and when she sees a random squirrel (anywhere, not just here at home) she often says, "maybe that's the squirel that make my tights."

:LOL :LOL :LOL


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

I am betting that was Squirrel Nutkin from Beatrix Potter. He's just the sort to do something like that.

BTW, I have a squirrel phobia and they often show up in my nightmares. I hope your daughter doesn't suffer the same! I would never put it past a tight-eating squirrel to do all sorts of damage. I KNEW they were like that (everyone thinks they're so cute and fluffy, but noooo...)


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## Raynbow (Aug 2, 2004)

I like it, however, like all parenting "methods", you need to alter it to fit your personality and family.

I'm not religious either... so I just ignore that part...


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Victorian you crack me up.







:


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## owensmom (Feb 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama*
I am betting that was Squirrel Nutkin from Beatrix Potter. He's just the sort to do something like that.

BTW, I have a squirrel phobia and they often show up in my nightmares. I hope your daughter doesn't suffer the same! I would never put it past a tight-eating squirrel to do all sorts of damage. I KNEW they were like that (everyone thinks they're so cute and fluffy, but noooo...)

You are like Anya on Buffy - she was terrified of bunnys for the same reason. When they told her to dress as something scary for halloween, she showed up in a bunny costume.

Wow, can I help this stray a little more off topic?


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes,
They've got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses.
And what's with all the carrots-?
What do they need such good eyesight for anywa - y?
Bunnies, bunnies it must be bunnies!


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poxybat*
it feels like alot of people feel the need to punish thier children to appease other people, but it doesnt matter what those other people think.
quite frankly i rarely ever give a thought to anyone who has witnessed cassandra having a tantrum. i dont care what they think of my parenting, it can only cause harm if they matter to you more or as much as your obviously upset child. i think it would be helpful to just not care what people think about your parenting, easier said than done i know. if people think your child is rotten who care what they think? you know its not true. you have no reason to be humiliated. rethink that whole stance becase you dont have to say something to your child to say it ykwim?
its easy to feel judged but it really does no good. my mantra seems to be "if you know youre doing the absolute best for your child then you have no reason to feel bad" but there is also so much room to change and make things better because there is always growth in this process. if enough people on this board think somethings bad i usually look into it and find i agree(not always but usually) maybe the naughty step isnt a good idea? maybe time out isnt either? its good to always keep your mind open to the possibility.

OK take the other people out of the equasion.
I still need to be able to do things with DD with me and not have her throw herself on the ground screaming and refuse to walk. I understand she's not perfect. I understand she slips up. But time out has decreased this behavior. I'm a stay at home mom. My DH works. I have to take DD virtually everywhere with me and yes there are bad consequences to me--like not being approved for the home loan, the pediatrician thinking I'm an airbrain and questioning every little thing I do with DD!

I also think if tantrum's aren't elimidated DD will have consequences later like poor social relationships with peers who understand that their inappropriate.

But I am open as you said.
What is wrong with giving a time out or naughty step session for a tantrum? And please don't think I'm trying to be rude, this is a genuine question.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
What is wrong with giving a time out or naughty step session for a tantrum? And please don't think I'm trying to be rude, this is a genuine question.

OK, here's one thing that I think happens when you punish your child for having a tantrum. And this is purely from a practical point of view, like thinking of how you can get her to stop throwing fits while you're trying to get something done. When your dd has a fit, she is out of control, right? So imagine it from her point of view. You're at an office, she's a little bit tired, a little bit hungry, and a little bit bored. She picks up on your anxiety, you're hoping she's going to behave, and you're nervous about talking to the city planner (just to use an example from my own life). So then, for whatever reason, something sets her off. Maybe she was trying to show you something, or wanted your attention, or maybe she's just had it. She starts to feel herself losing control, which is easy for a two year old to do, and what does she think?

"Hmm, I don't want to sit on the naughty step when I get home, I think I'll just take a deep breath and count to ten."

or maybe,

"I'm feeling so stressed out, I know I'm going to start crying, and then I'm going to be in trouble. If I start crying, the person I look to for support is going to be mad at me and probably scold me. That just makes me feel worse, now I can't stop crying and now my mother's disapproving of me!!!"

Maybe your dc has more control, and maybe they can't exactly verbalize it, but I think that's why punishing for tantrums don't help. I think there's a lot of other reasons not to punish, too, but that's just one example.

I take my kids everywhere I go, too. I've had to leave places, and I've had some embarrassing moments, but I don't think it's the end of the world if the salesperson at the countertop store thinks my kids are out of control and that I'm crazy. How can they judge from the fifteen minutes they see them? And who cares anyway?


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
What is wrong with giving a time out or naughty step session for a tantrum? And please don't think I'm trying to be rude, this is a genuine question.

To me, it's like giving a time out for falling down when learning to walk, not being able to remember the word for something, or dropping food off a fork while eating. Kids aren't born with adult-level abilities, and telling them that they shouldn't perform behaviors that are on their current developmental level doesn't magically make them able to perform at higher levels. Does my ds have tantrums? You bet. Does he enjoy having them? No, I don't believe he does. Would he choose to use another method of communication if he were skilled enough in it? Yep. Tantrums are a developmental step. I view them as an opportunity for teaching alternatives through modeling, support, and suggestions, not as something that I need to just wipe out.

That said, I have no problem with parent time-outs. Occasionally I'm just at the end of my rope, and I can feel my subconscious start to turn on the tapes that ran throughout my childhood. Rather than expose ds to nastiness from me, I'll tell him that Mama will be back in a minute, and I'll go and spend a minute or two in the bathroom or wherever, just to give myself a chance to regroup. He doesn't like when I do this, but of course, he doesn't know what I'm trying to avoid having happen.


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## YiddisheMama (Dec 23, 2002)

b'h

i think there is nothing wrong with tantrums, and my kids are welcome to throw tantrums whenever they want...but i don't have to hear it. my kids know that they can throw tantrums, scream, yell etc anytime they want, as long as it's in their bedroom or in the patio with the door closed.

whenever they're done with their screaming, i'm all ready to see them/hear them/hold them/hug them etc...

it's different of course if they hurt themselves and are crying. then i hold them and they cry on my shoulder etc...


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
it's different of course if they hurt themselves and are crying. then i hold them and they cry on my shoulder etc...

But aren't most tantrums a symptom of hurting? Just because it isn't physical, doesn't it still hurt?

Sometimes I think adults underestimate the difficulty children have dealing with what seem like minor disappointments to us. It takes a lot of practice and experience, and I believe children still need support when they're feeling something emotionally painful.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
But aren't most tantrums a symptom of hurting? Just because it isn't physical, doesn't it still hurt?

Sometimes I think adults underestimate the difficulty children have dealing with what seem like minor disappointments to us. It takes a lot of practice and experience, and I believe children still need support when they're feeling something emotionally painful.

ITA. My parents were big believers in "I don't want to have to hear it," and I strongly got the message that they didn't want me to show any non-happy emotions. I ended up feeling that I was less worthy as a person unless I was happy and fun to be around at all times.

Even when ds is upset and crying/screaming/tantrumming because of something I did/didn't do/told him he had to do/told him he couldn't do, I still don't have a problem offering sympathy and support. It's hard to be little. It's not easy to be big either, but, let's face it, we have the greater power, the greater perspective, and the greater reserves to face life. I can afford to be magnanimous and cope with the unpleasantness of his tantrums in order to be there for him.


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
b'h

i think there is nothing wrong with tantrums, and my kids are welcome to throw tantrums whenever they want...but i don't have to hear it. my kids know that they can throw tantrums, scream, yell etc anytime they want, as long as it's in their bedroom or in the patio with the door closed.

whenever they're done with their screaming, i'm all ready to see them/hear them/hold them/hug them etc...

it's different of course if they hurt themselves and are crying. then i hold them and they cry on my shoulder etc...

I totally agree. I see it as a part of growing and learning. At some point we learn that throwing a tantrum just isn't OK in this big old world (although as an HR Director I know some folks never learn this







). It's that whole L & L raising children to be responsible adults thing.

What age is appropriate for this learning varies from kid to kid. I believe that my 4 1/2 yo is ready for this and as such if he's throwing a tantrum, he will go to his room, or ours, to do so. He has demonstrated over and over that he's fully capable of dealing with things in more constructive and appropriate ways but if he makes the choice to yell and scream, he is also making the choice to go to his room.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YiddisheMama*
b'h

i think there is nothing wrong with tantrums, and my kids are welcome to throw tantrums whenever they want...but i don't have to hear it. my kids know that they can throw tantrums, scream, yell etc anytime they want, as long as it's in their bedroom or in the patio with the door closed.

whenever they're done with their screaming, i'm all ready to see them/hear them/hold them/hug them etc...

it's different of course if they hurt themselves and are crying. then i hold them and they cry on my shoulder etc...

I disagree.

I am 35 year old and now and then I fail to control myself. I cry. I have been known to have a fit (at least 4-5 times during my adult married life). I threw a full-flegged tantrum when I just became pregnant and did not know it (broken dishes, screaming at DH, very pittiful)

I am very glad my DH does not assume the attitude of "I don't want to hear it" and "I'll hug you when you are done"

And I agree, during those times the "hurt" is way higher then when I hit myself with a hammer (or may be it's just me)


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I think it is a very slippery slope to tell our kids they can't be upset or out of control around us.

This is a common theme among recovering alcoholics and addicts--growing up in families where negative emotions were threatening/not allowed/punished over/etc. How quickly they learned that alcohol and drugs could squelch those emotions. And are now spending lots of time and energy undoing those negative messages and learning how to deal with emotions as adults.

I would never tell my child they couldn't laugh around me, why would I tell them that they couldn't cry around me?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
Even when ds is upset and crying/screaming/tantrumming because of something I did/didn't do/told him he had to do/told him he couldn't do, I still don't have a problem offering sympathy and support. It's hard to be little. It's not easy to be big either, but, let's face it, we have the greater power, the greater perspective, and the greater reserves to face life. I can afford to be magnanimous and cope with the unpleasantness of his tantrums in order to be there for him.

Ditto that. Really I think in many ways it is that much MORE important to be there for them when they are upset because that's when they really need understanding and compassion. Tantrums are a way for them to show how upset they are, I want to be sure my boys know I'm there for them - and not to believe that I just don't want to hear it.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
ITA. My parents were big believers in "I don't want to have to hear it," and I strongly got the message that they didn't want me to show any non-happy emotions. I ended up feeling that I was less worthy as a person unless I was happy and fun to be around at all times.

Me too.


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## twin1coby (Jun 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I don't have a lot of time to read, so I want a lot of action for my money :LOL

Here, here. Though it's not specifically a _parenting style_ book, I have been reading "Mindful Parenting" (upon my sister's rec. -- it's by the Myla and Jon Kabat-Zinn) and it is good reading time spent for those of us with little reading time to spare!

This is all good stuff to think about (we have a 3 yr old boy) and I've appreciated many of the posts so far!


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
What is wrong with giving a time out or naughty step session for a tantrum? And please don't think I'm trying to be rude, this is a genuine question.

I think it is important to understand that children do not choose to throw a tantrum, they fall into them. Tantrums are not an acceptable or unacceptable behaviour. They are behaviour that a child cannot control and this is scary for them. I found (on this forum) two very good links about tantrums.

http://www.carolinaparent.com/1edito...-token.subpub=

http://www.carolinaparent.com/1edito...-token.subpub=

"We strongly recommend against parents placing children younger than age 6 in their rooms during a tantrum (..) Isolating a child who is regressed and feeling intolerably alone simply takes advantage of the child's fear. Although it is true that many children will settle down more quickly if they are isolated in their room, their behavioral improvement is in response to the increased panic that has been produced by the isolation"

P.S. If the links do not work then simply go to www.carolinaparent.com and search for tantrum


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## kchoffmann (Aug 16, 2004)

At 1-3, kids tantrum because they have a whole new slew of emotions that overwhelm them. Not "giving in" and not being present for your child's feelings are not the same thing at all. Put another way, being present for your child's feelings is not the same thing as giving in to what they're wanting. I love that when my son tantrums - which is not often - he comes to me again and again for hugs, and I love that I am there for him when he needs that comfort for his feelings. I hope he will always seek comfort and not isolation when he has strong feelings in his life. Kids who continue to tantrum often into the 4's and 5's and beyond do so because they learned tantruming got them what they wanted, not because their caretakers allowed them to have their feelings in front of them.


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
I think it is important to understand that children do not choose to throw a tantrum, they fall into them. Tantrums are not an acceptable or unacceptable behaviour. They are behaviour that a child cannot control and this is scary for them. I found (on this forum) two very good links about tantrums.

http://www.carolinaparent.com/1edito...-token.subpub=

http://www.carolinaparent.com/1edito...-token.subpub=

"We strongly recommend against parents placing children younger than age 6 in their rooms during a tantrum (..) Isolating a child who is regressed and feeling intolerably alone simply takes advantage of the child's fear. Although it is true that many children will settle down more quickly if they are isolated in their room, their behavioral improvement is in response to the increased panic that has been produced by the isolation"

P.S. If the links do not work then simply go to www.carolinaparent.com and search for tantrum

I stay with her during her time outs. We use the bottom step, not the room.
She is allowed to express herself and I listen but not in public, not in our kitchen, living room, and not while in a social situation with friends.

She usually does not get to tantrum stage because I remind her she's going on the step if she continues what she's doing when she's beginning to "fall"

So, have I instilled fear in her? That really isn't what I intended with the step.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

for me it comes down to: why punish a child at all for behavior, like a tantrum, that they can't control, and is totally age appropriate?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
She is allowed to express herself and I listen but not in public, not in our kitchen, living room, and not while in a social situation with friends.

Why are there only certain places she can express her emotions? If she was physically hurt and crying would she need to go on the step too? I would be concerned about encouraging her to bottle up her emotions for fear she will get in trouble. It seems anti-attachment to me.

Not trying to be snarky to you - just trying to get you to consider a different viewpoint.

Now if you are in the middle of the supermarket and she has a tantrum I think it's totally fine to leave the store and discuss outside (so as not to disturb everyone else), but not as a punishment. I'm not getting why she can't have a tantrum in the kitchen or living room.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I just don't understand why anyone would punish their child for having a tantrum.

I guess my DS isn't that old yet, so maybe there's a component of this I just don't get yet...

but, when he has a tantrum, I don't see it as him acting defiant, or being "bad". He's just unable to control his emotions at this early age.

It will be a lonnnnng time before he has all of the coping mechanisms in place to MOSTLY be able to handle disappointment, change and tiredness in healthy ways. It's my job to help guide him in learning ways to express his feelings in a more adult way as time goes on.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Well said KM.


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I just don't understand why anyone would punish their child for having a tantrum.

I guess my DS isn't that old yet, so maybe there's a component of this I just don't get yet...


To me, it very much IS about age and even moreso an individual child's demonstrated ability to effectively deal with strong emotions like anger and frustration without having a tantrum. My 4yo has demonstrated that he knows very well how to deal with his anger and frustration in contructive, effective, appropriate ways.

The day that I decided he _was_ well equiped enough to know that tantrums are not appropriate was the day that he started turning them on and off like a light switch. He was about 2m away from his 4th birthday. If he's able to just stop in a snap and move to something else then its obvious to me that holding him and comforting him while he's having one is doing no more than encouraging the behavior.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UmmBnB*
If he's able to just stop in a snap and move to something else then its obvious to me that holding him and comforting him while he's having one is doing no more than encouraging the behavior.

I disagree wholeheartedly with this. Comforting him lets him know that you understand he is upset and want to help him feel better, it is not encouraging the behavior. Encouraging would be giving him what he wants because of a temper tantrum and no one has suggested doing that.


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## lioralourie (Aug 22, 2004)

just my 2 cents worth...

I've read parts of the book, but I only know one family IRL who is really into Love and Logic (the mom has held parenting groups about L&L and is always trying to introduce friends and acquaintances to it). This family has 3 pretty terrible kids, most of the time.

The kids' behavior is, in a nutshell, awful. At ages 7, 5 and 3, even the older two:

1) Constantly messing up other people's work, deliberately pouring sugar bowls out, sticking their hands in food to be served to the crowd, and demolishing place settings and such before dinnertime.
2) Making huge messes like carelessly spilling their drink all over someone/something and just waltzing away and not even appearing to realize that they've done anything wrong, not even a "sorry".
3) Walk up and nonchalantly just take food right off of strangers' plates, and keep on walking. Like they own the place.
4) Grab toys from other kids, throw toys at kids, push and bully smaller kids, etc.

They seem to have no conscience, and a complete disregard of other people's property, and no knowledge of basic human conduct. They are utterly irresponsible and selfish, way beyond the normal childish self-centeredness.

And if the mom's around, which is rarely, granted, the mom just stands there and watches all this go on. "Not intervening" seems to have given these kids license to do all sorts of awful things. And sometimes the kids get chewed out or reprimanded by adults and then the mom gets all weird at the adults like kids will be kids.

I'm not at all impressed by what I've seen of L&L IRL. The book is much better, and some of the emotionally distancing techniques can help a yeller like me to cool off and not get so emotional...but overall I'm no fan, simply based on this family I know.

THESE kids don't even seem to know right from wrong!


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lioralourie*

THESE kids don't even seem to know right from wrong!


Your description of them sounds miles away from L&L. Makes me wonder how this family really puts the principles into practice. Ignoring behaviors like you mention certainly is no part of L&L. Sounds like she doesn't practice what she preaches.


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
I disagree wholeheartedly with this. Comforting him lets him know that you understand he is upset and want to help him feel better, it is not encouraging the behavior. Encouraging would be giving him what he wants because of a temper tantrum and no one has suggested doing that.

Let me give you an example, which started right after I posted the previous entry. Ds wanted biscuts for breakfast....dh was making egg and potato burritos. We told him that the biscuts were for biscuts and gravy tomorrow but he could have a tortilla, toast, waffle, with his eggs and on down the line. He grabbed the can of biscuts, hugged it, threw himself on the floor and started screaming. I told him that we are having a quiet morning and if he wants to yell and scream he can do it in his bedroom.

With that, he stopped screaming, looked up and smiled and said, "its not going to work is it?" I said, "Nope. The biscuts are for tomorrow." He put them back in the fridge and went to play with his sister.

I do not believe he needed to be hugged and comforted. He needed to be reminded that this behavior is not appropriate.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

But couldn't the same thing have been accomplished by saying "I know you are upset that you can't have biscuits today, but I know you will enjoy them tommorrow." Or something similar. Rather than "Go to your room to be upet because we don't want to see it." See what I'm saying?

He was upset about not having the biscuits, just because he got over it quickly when faced with having to go to his room doesn't really change the fact. Both ways he's learned that having a tantrum didn't work but one way he's also gotten his feelings validated.


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:

But couldn't the same thing have been accomplished by saying "I know you are upset that you can't have biscuits today, but I know you will enjoy them tommorrow." Or something similar.
A year ago your suggestion would have been my approach and was. When that quit working, we went looking for new techniques to add to our box of parenting tools.

I know he wasn't really all that broken up about this because when he is truly feeling angry/sad/frustrated, he deals much differently. He tells us how he's feeling (angry, sad, etc) and then we start a dialog about how he can feel better with or sometimes without our help. When he's putting on a show, we know it.

I guess its hard for anyone to explain their sitation to those who aren't a part of it irl.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

To answer the op (even though she seems to already know what to do- lol)
I hated love and logic. Here's a thread with examples from the book http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=311148
Other gd'ers have different opinions, but there's mine. And the examples are straight from the book. ewww.

As far as tantrums go, Ita with everyone who's saying that tantrums are normal emotions for a child, and that the best way to deal with them is to be there for the child. Hold them, talk to them, be as understanding as you can be.

nak...


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UmmBnB*
Let me give you an example, which started right after I posted the previous entry. Ds wanted biscuts for breakfast....dh was making egg and potato burritos. We told him that the biscuts were for biscuts and gravy tomorrow but he could have a tortilla, toast, waffle, with his eggs and on down the line. He grabbed the can of biscuts, hugged it, threw himself on the floor and started screaming. I told him that we are having a quiet morning and if he wants to yell and scream he can do it in his bedroom.

With that, he stopped screaming, looked up and smiled and said, "its not going to work is it?" I said, "Nope. The biscuts are for tomorrow." He put them back in the fridge and went to play with his sister.

I do not believe he needed to be hugged and comforted. He needed to be reminded that this behavior is not appropriate.

To me that makes perfect sense.
If you comforted him you would reinforce the behavior. I use the step and stay with my child but I just can't see hugging them at that point.

And for everone who is saying tantrum's are age appropriate, a lot of things are age appropriate and we have to teach our kids that they aren't acceptable. If u reinforce your child's tantrums how are they going to learn you don't want them screaming like that?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UmmBnB*
When that quit working, we went looking for new techniques to add to our box of parenting tools.

When you say it "quit working" I'm curious about what you mean. What has this new approach provided that the old one didn't? (Not being snarky, generally curious!)

I use this approach with all my boys even with my 15 year old (yes they have what could be the equivalent of a tantrum sometimes!) and it still "works" in that they know that I'm listening and I know what they are feeling.


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UmmBnB*
A year ago your suggestion would have been my approach and was. When that quit working, we went looking for new techniques to add to our box of parenting tools.

I know he wasn't really all that broken up about this because when he is truly feeling angry/sad/frustrated, he deals much differently. He tells us how he's feeling (angry, sad, etc) and then we start a dialog about how he can feel better with or sometimes without our help. When he's putting on a show, we know it.

I guess its hard for anyone to explain their sitation to those who aren't a part of it irl.

This makes sense to me to.
I know when DD is playing up and when she has a valid concern. For instance she does not get to pick our meals. She knows she does not get to pick our meals. She would pick chocolate or cereal for every meal.

Ok now an example of the opposite. I think a tantrum related to the room being too dark would be something I would cuddle her through and see what I cuold do about her fears. But not something she knows full well she isn't supposed to be doing like what you described or this one that happened recently with us.

DD wanted a toy out of those machines at the front of the grocery store. She didn't even know what it was, she just saw an older kid getting one and suddenly wanted it. Huge tantrum in the front of the grocery store. DH ended up paying for groceries while DD and I took time out in the car.

I have seen 8 and 9 year olds still throwing tantrums over this same stuff. I need to teach DD that it isnt appropriate as I do not want a 9 or 10 yo on my hand who does that.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
If you comforted him you would reinforce the behavior.

I'm still not understanding why you think comforting him reinforces the behavior? He's not looking for comfort in the example, he's looking for biscuits. Comforting lets him know you validate his feelings. Reinforcing would be saying "OK, here have a biscuit."


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
I have seen 8 and 9 year olds still throwing tantrums over this same stuff. I need to teach DD that it isnt appropriate as I do not want a 9 or 10 yo on my hand who does that.

I also wanted to mention that my nephew is 10 and still does this - but it's not because his mother comforts him, it's because she gives him what he wants when he has one. Big difference. Gentle Disclipline versus No Disclipline. Believe me your 9 or 10 year old will not have a tantrum in the supermarket because you hugged him through the rough patches at 3 years old.


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

You have a very good point. I will think it over, k?

I do comfort DD to a certain extent but I also remove her from the situation. She does not at this age have time out's alone, she sits on the step and I stand nearby and we talk it out, or if we're in public, we stand by the car or sit in the car.

But I don't let her stay in the store if she is causing issues in the store or in the kitchen if she is causing issues there.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

i can't get over the canned biscuits personally.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Minky - I see NOTHING wrong with removing her from a crowded store or a place where she could be in danger of hurting herself - that is totally cool! I was more concerned about using the step as a punishment rather then a discussion place, KWIM? That's all. Peace. Parenting is so hard!


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wolfmama*
i can't get over the canned biscuits personally.

















:







:







:


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
I also wanted to mention that my nephew is 10 and still does this - but it's not because his mother comforts him, it's because she gives him what he wants when he has one.

Ditto - my nephew is also 10. He doesn't get a lot of attention or cuddling, but if he makes enough noise, he'll get what he wants...gets him out of his mom's hair.









My dd throws tantrums - ds1 didn't, and it's been a huge adjustment. But, it never gets her what she wants, and usually she gets a hug and cuddle...except when she runs away. My dd is fiercely independent and quite often rejects attempts to comfort her.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

mama_g -- i just wanted to say i got the bunny song :LOL I loved that episode.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
mama_g -- i just wanted to say i got the bunny song :LOL I loved that episode.


phew. i thought people were going to think i was smoking crack again.


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## kchoffmann (Aug 16, 2004)

I think this has already been established, but I wanted to voice it again because it's an important distinction. You reinforce tantrums when you give them what they want when they tantrum, not when you stay present with them through their feelings.


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
When you say it "quit working" I'm curious about what you mean. What has this new approach provided that the old one didn't? (Not being snarky, generally curious!)


Letsee...In general it was when exchanges like that did nothing to end the tantrum. When they seemed to give him an OK to yell and scream - despite my best attempts to cuddle and soothe them away while providing alternatives. When we began giving him the choice of going to his room to yell and scream or stay with us and talk about how he was feeling - without yelling and screaming - the tantrums decreased and the discussions increased. He's really really good at talking about his feelings and he's really really good at making choices that I'd say are very wise for a 4 1/2 yr old.

For us, what the new approach provided were additional methods of choice giving, additional ways to set boundaries and a additional ways to teach our child responsibility. I'm not sure I described this well, but this is how it felt when we read it and instituted the priciples.

We aren't by-the-book L&L'ers in all situations, but I do find its techniques extremely valuable in many situations for us. I see and L&L parent as the same as a Backbone parent (Coloroso), for instance. I'm not a by-the-book any kind of parent though. I take a little from here, a little from there and work it all in to what fits our family.

What made me comment on this thread in the first place was reading the flat out rejection of L&L when I found it to be quite gentle, practical and healthy. Do I like every suggestion in it, no. But then I doubt I'd find any parenting book which I agreed with 100% on every point, yk?


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## kchoffmann (Aug 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UmmBnB*
When we began giving him the choice of going to his room to yell and scream or stay with us and talk about how he was feeling - without yelling and screaming - the tantrums decreased and the discussions increased. He's really really good at talking about his feelings and he's really really good at making choices that I'd say are very wise for a 4 1/2 yr old.

For us, what the new approach provided were additional methods of choice giving, additional ways to set boundaries and a additional ways to teach our child responsibility.

This sounds very appropriate for a 4 year old.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Wow, what an amazing thread! I haven't been around much lately and it was a great way to throw myself back in, lol.

Minky, glad you are taking a second look at this. I can see from your posts that one of the issues you are dealing with is your perspective on various things. For example, tantrums. As many here have said, a tantrum is a natural, raw expression of emotion from a little being who can barely understand what is happening to herself, let alone control how it comes out. Like any other skill, controlling your emotions takes time and maturity. You need to stop looking at tantrums as something to be "stopped". Children who tantrum at age 10 do so because of something that has gone wrong with their natural emotional development, such that they get "Stuck" in that phase. It's not because they received love and comfot. The best thing you can do when a child tantrums is validate their emotions, help them to identify their emotions and understand what is happening to them, so that later as they get older, they can learn to handle them better. You don't "reinforce" a tantrum with love and comfort. You do reinforce a tantrum by giving them whatever they are upset about not having, each and every time (and I emphasize that last point because once in a while it's okay to say "hey, I didn't realize this meant so much to you, I guess we could do X" - that's a valuable life lesson in itself). A child who is tantruming needs your love and affection more than ever. It's scary and unsettlling for them to be so out of control. The less they come to fear your abandonment, the easier it will be for them to move past the tantrum stage.

Quote:

I think a tantrum related to the room being too dark would be something I would cuddle her through and see what I cuold do about her fears. But not something she knows full well she isn't supposed to be doing.
Why do you get to decide what she's allowed to be upset about and what she isn't? What kind of message is that sending to your child? You want your child to be confident in herself and what she feels. The worst thing you can do is be the Judge and Jury for her emotions. If she says she is afraid of crackers, who are you to tell her she is making it up? If she wants a toy and can't have one, well that is life and life can be hard sometimes. Think about how you want to be treated when life is hard and gets you down; would you want people saying "you can't really be sad about that!" or "I can't stand the way you sound when you cry, why don't you go to another room and come back when you are calmer" (not saying you do that, just an example of withdrawal). I think removing her as you did is fine and totally appropriate so long as there is nothing punitive in the way it's done. You can say "hey, it's tough when you can't have a toy. there was this pair of shoes I saw the other day and I really wanted them but I couldn't and it made me upset, too. maybe we could give each other a hug.".

Move past the behaviourist crap we're all fed with growing up. Kids are not pigeons to be trained to peck at coloured squares with rewards and punishments. LOVE and affection and comfort should never be used as weapons for reinforcing good behaviour or dissuading "bad" behaviour. Love is unconditional, and it's the child who KNOWS and FEELS that who is able to move through developmental stages appropriately without getting stuck.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UmmBnB*
...when exchanges like that did nothing to end the tantrum. When they seemed to give him an OK to yell and scream - despite my best attempts to cuddle and soothe them away while providing alternatives. When we began giving him the choice of going to his room to yell and scream or stay with us and talk about how he was feeling - without yelling and screaming - the tantrums decreased and the discussions increased.

I just had to add, since this was posted while I was reading the thread...These are my "critiques" of the above approach (NOT a critique of the woman who is sharing it with us!







<--- UmmBnB)...

First, why is the end goal to "stop the tantrum"? I think this stems from the fears that Dar described so eloquently several pages back, that if we as parents don't DO something about normal developmental stages, that our kids will "always" be that way. I think those fears are largely groundless, because I think it's precisely the manipulations of parents that cause such behaviours to persist and extend beyond their natural time.

Second, it sounds as though the point of the cuddling (from the parent's perspective) was to end the tantrum ( to quote: "soothe them away"). I disagree with this; it's using love and comfort as some sort of means to an end, rather than a genuine expression of sympathy and empathy.

Third, the child was given a choice to be removed from parental input, love, comfort, etc...by going to his room, or to stay and receive that input. The child chose the latter, which says to me that the child WANTS that input, even when the child is tantruming. So, if a child needs and wants the parent, even in the midst of a tantrum, should we be using that as a means of manipulation? Because what we are saying in effect is: you want me to talk with you and comfort you and help you through this? Then you need to do what I say. You need to stop making that noise and acting that way or else I'm not going to give you my love and attention. And to me, that is using attachment as a weapon, to quote Neufeld. It is not "unconditional love" in the way that Kohn describes it. So naturally, the child does whatever he can to "get himself under control" so he can regain that closeness with the parent he's seeking in that moment. I don't think that is really guidance, it's not being an "emotion coach", I think it's more of a self-preservation thing with the child and as such, not terribly instructive.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Children who tantrum at age 10 do so because of something that has gone wrong with their natural emotional development, such that they get "Stuck" in that phase. It's not because they received love and comfot.


Although I agree with much of your post, I don't agree with this and neither will you, I think, when your kids are 10.

I would say kids who tantrum IN PUBLIC at age 10, have something that has gone wrong with their ability to control their emotions in public.

But every single 10 y.o. I know tantrums "in private" with their parents. In fact, I have seen many a time, when we will be talking and the topic will turn to A's daughter who is just the most together, sweet, mature seeming child and her mom will talk about how A is tantruming at home over something.

And the rest will express surprise "NOT A, she is so perfect and together. I thought it was just my crazy child." And the next person will be like "YOUr child. OMG, she is so mature and together. No. Really?"









Anyway, I OFFER comfrort during a tantrum and I don't send my kids away. However, I defintiley did not feel the need to sit with them thru the tantrum, as they got older. It was more like "IF you need me, I will be over here folding the laundry."


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
I'm still not understanding why you think comforting him reinforces the behavior? He's not looking for comfort in the example, he's looking for biscuits. Comforting lets him know you validate his feelings. Reinforcing would be saying "OK, here have a biscuit."

I was thinking the same thing. Unless the tantrum is because what they wanted in the first place was attention, I don't think giving attention would be "giving in" or reinforcing. And if the tantrum WAS to get attention, then I'd venture to say that you ought to be paying more attention to your child (NOT directed at anyone here- just a general statement).
If there was a tantrum thrown to get a biscuit (just because that's the latest example here), giving him attention isn't getting him a biscuit. So...the tantrum still isn't having it's desired effect.


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## kchoffmann (Aug 16, 2004)

I agree with the posters making a distinction between the way they handle tantrums with a toddler and the way they handle them with older children. I don't think kids use tantrums as manipulation, unless they've learned it gets them what they wanted in the first place. But I do think that as they become mature enough to do so, they need our guidance to learn about what are appropriate ways to express their anger. How many adults have I come in contact with who still don't seem to get this? Clearly, nobody helped them with this. That is different though from being available to your child for his/her emotions and making it clear their feelings matter to you. It is more than possible to do both.

Also, I think people are talking about two different ways of being there for their children during tantrums - it's not always about hugging your child through the tantrum (which I think assumes the child wants comfort, which isn't always true). To me it's more about just being present and available to their feelings. So, staying with them, acknowledging the feeling they show, and being available in case they do want comfort. This is not reinforcing the way the child's expressing him/her self; it's only reinforcing that their feelings matter.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Others have already said what I was going to say so I won't really repeat it all again! If your end goal is to "stop the tantrums" then yes threatening to send to their room will no doubt help achieve that goal. But this really isn't necessary. Growing up and not giving in to the desired payoff for the tantrum is the key. All that sending the child away does is to say "I don't want to be around you when you are upset." If you are trying to create a close attachment bond to a child, this isn't going to help that cause.

Wait didn't I say I wasn't going to repeat? Oopsey! OK now I really am done.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Maya, you are right. I didn't make that distinction in my words but in my head I was imagining a 10 year old throwing herself on the floor of the grocery store b/c she couldn't have a chocolate bar. I agree that older kids at home may tantrum every now and then. Even certain 37 year olds I know who shall remain nameless.







:

Also, Kerry ITA that how you respond to a tantrum can depend on what the child wants and needs. Not all kids want to be held; some definitely want their space. The key is, as you said, that the child feels validated in their emotions, and knows that the parent is there for them unconditionally, not only when the situation becomes more appealing to the parent, kwim?


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kchoffmann*
I agree with the posters making a distinction between the way they handle tantrums with a toddler and the way they handle them with older children....

But I do think that as they become mature enough to do so, they need our guidance to learn about what are appropriate ways to express their anger. .


I guess there are a couple of things that strike me reading through this thread....

First, some posters seem to be classifiying 4/5 years olds as "older children," which I find to be odd. These are really little kids. I just came home from my dd1's 5th birthday party which was an incredibly loud room full of wonderful children. They seem really little to me.

Second, I'm wondering (seriously, not being snarky) what way the posters who don't allow their children to choose their food, clothes etc. find to be an appropriate way for their children to express their anger/fury/rage under these circumstances. Because it doesn't sound like just "We aren't going to have X for breakfast this morning; we aren't going to have y for lunch." It sounds like "I pick out what we are going to eat and prepare it and you eat it (quickly or at the rate I say).And if that makes you mad, go to your room. If you don't like it or eat it fast enough, go hungry."

Am I missing something?


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
Minky - I see NOTHING wrong with removing her from a crowded store or a place where she could be in danger of hurting herself - that is totally cool! I was more concerned about using the step as a punishment rather then a discussion place, KWIM? That's all. Peace. Parenting is so hard!









I realy AM trying to be gentler.
Is it punishment if I stya with her and we talk, even if we don't hug and comfort?


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Wow, what an amazing thread! I haven't been around much lately and it was a great way to throw myself back in, lol.

Minky, glad you are taking a second look at this. I can see from your posts that one of the issues you are dealing with is your perspective on various things. For example, tantrums. As many here have said, a tantrum is a natural, raw expression of emotion from a little being who can barely understand what is happening to herself, let alone control how it comes out. Like any other skill, controlling your emotions takes time and maturity. You need to stop looking at tantrums as something to be "stopped". Children who tantrum at age 10 do so because of something that has gone wrong with their natural emotional development, such that they get "Stuck" in that phase. It's not because they received love and comfot. The best thing you can do when a child tantrums is validate their emotions, help them to identify their emotions and understand what is happening to them, so that later as they get older, they can learn to handle them better. You don't "reinforce" a tantrum with love and comfort. You do reinforce a tantrum by giving them whatever they are upset about not having, each and every time (and I emphasize that last point because once in a while it's okay to say "hey, I didn't realize this meant so much to you, I guess we could do X" - that's a valuable life lesson in itself). A child who is tantruming needs your love and affection more than ever. It's scary and unsettlling for them to be so out of control. The less they come to fear your abandonment, the easier it will be for them to move past the tantrum stage.

Why do you get to decide what she's allowed to be upset about and what she isn't? What kind of message is that sending to your child? You want your child to be confident in herself and what she feels. The worst thing you can do is be the Judge and Jury for her emotions. If she says she is afraid of crackers, who are you to tell her she is making it up? If she wants a toy and can't have one, well that is life and life can be hard sometimes. Think about how you want to be treated when life is hard and gets you down; would you want people saying "you can't really be sad about that!" or "I can't stand the way you sound when you cry, why don't you go to another room and come back when you are calmer" (not saying you do that, just an example of withdrawal). I think removing her as you did is fine and totally appropriate so long as there is nothing punitive in the way it's done. You can say "hey, it's tough when you can't have a toy. there was this pair of shoes I saw the other day and I really wanted them but I couldn't and it made me upset, too. maybe we could give each other a hug.".

Move past the behaviourist crap we're all fed with growing up. Kids are not pigeons to be trained to peck at coloured squares with rewards and punishments. LOVE and affection and comfort should never be used as weapons for reinforcing good behaviour or dissuading "bad" behaviour. Love is unconditional, and it's the child who KNOWS and FEELS that who is able to move through developmental stages appropriately without getting stuck.

Why do I get to decide what she can and can't be upset about? Well maybe because I know tha she's going to be in pre school soon and is going to have to get along with others. I would like her to know that she will be removed from the situation when she has a tantrum.

Fear is different than wanting things, thogh. If she said she was scared of crackers, or scared of her car seat or something i would comfort her through that.

and I dont consider myself a behaviorist BUT I think that some principals like pairing an undesirable behavior with something nice like hugging or (worse) giving in wil lead to reinforcement of the behavior. There's alot more to it than that but I do think that part holds true.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
I realy AM trying to be gentler.
Is it punishment if I stya with her and we talk, even if we don't hug and comfort?









I know you are - I'm totally not trying to beat up on you! You sound like a great Mom!

I personally think talking IS comforting. I think there is some confusion on this thread about comforting means hugging your DC as s/he kicks and screams. I don't hug my son through his tantrums - I talk to him and validate his feelings by saying in a nice voice "Oh I know such and such is hard. But *insert reason why he can't do / have whatever*..."

Trust me when I say I'm not really in a hugging mood when DS is screaming and yelling in the supermarket


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

*
Second, I'm wondering (seriously, not being snarky) what way the posters who don't allow their children to choose their food, clothes etc. find to be an appropriate way for their children to express their anger/fury/rage under these circumstances. Because it doesn't sound like just "We aren't going to have X for breakfast this morning; we aren't going to have y for lunch." It sounds like "I pick out what we are going to eat and prepare it and you eat it (quickly or at the rate I say).And if that makes you mad, go to your room. If you don't like it or eat it fast enough, go hungry." *


chfriend said:


> Not sure how you have tied all of these things together. Not all of us who have lots of rules have a rule that you are not allowed to tantrum.
> 
> No I did not allow my dd's to choose what they ate for meals or their clothes when they were little. By this, I mean that my kids did not pick out their clothes until they started kindergarten.That was just the rule in our house and there was never any rage/fury/anger about it. And as for meals, they now each get to plan one dinner per week and pick from a set list for b-fast and lunch (which they take to school). Again no anger/fury about this ever.
> 
> But if there were I would have dealt with it the same way I deal with any tantruming. (Actually with the clothing rule I would have tried to work out another solution if it was that important to them, but it just never was) In any event, with the way I serve meals, if they got upset before dinner, I would offer sympathy and empathy and hugs. But if they are not taken I will go about my business with a "If you need a hug or anything, I will be in the laundry room, putting the clothes in the washer" or more likely "right here chopping veggies". However, if the the tantruing happened at the table, I might tell them to go in the other room, so as not to interfere with everyone else's meal and discussion.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Children are individuals - some of us have kids who actually seem to feel better if they are calmly given some time on their own, or told in a reasonable voice what the parameters are that they're operating in, than if they're handled/cuddled a lot when they're flipping out.

There are times when what my daughter needs is a backrub and some sympathy, and there are other times where that just seems to stress her out more and reinforce that she's in the middle of a situation that is big and scary. She's a talker who responds well to reason for the most part, and there are times when she actually finds it reassuring that 'reason' applies, and not just sympathy, if that makes any sense?


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammastar2*
Children are individuals - some of us have kids who actually seem to feel better if they are calmly given some time on their own, or told in a reasonable voice what the parameters are that they're operating in, than if they're handled/cuddled a lot when they're flipping out.

This is totally my ds. When he is having a tantrum, talking to him just works him up even more and I firmly believe reinforces the behavior (I realize that many of you disagree with this - we'll just have to disagree







). He definitely knows the benefit of "alone time" and uses it frequently when he's frustrated...as do dh and myself.

I really appreciate this forum and all the ideas put forth but when it comes down to it, each and every one of us knows what's best for our children's individual situation. I also appreciate that while this thread started out a bit rough, its become much more respectful to each sides ideas and opinions. I truly believe that L&L has benefit...as do many other books and principles out there. I think its important that when these things are discussed we try to stay fair and balanced. But then we all know that


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Oh, totally. I would never support deliberately withdrawing affection as punishment - it's just a matter of trying to respond in the moment with what works. My daughter isn't happy when she's flipping out, and we've found through trial and error that sometimes when we cuddled and reassured, it just worked her up more. Depends on the situation, of course.

We're not very punishment-oriented at all, though.

Dd has a little friend who has a lot of 'timeouts' in his family, and she's a bit puzzled by the whole thing, although for a while she started giving herself 'timeouts' in response, as she thought they sounded kind of cool - as in "Can I have a timeout after supper?" She still sometimes trots upstairs to her room when she wants some time on her own, announcing it's time for her timeout. The Timeout Family doesn't know what to make of her: she's never been conditioned to think of time on her own as punishment!

I'm quite pleased that the result of not doling out punishments and fake consequences seems to be (so far) that she doesn't approach every action on our part as a "potential" punishment for her behaviour - maybe that's why time on her own or the presence or absence of cuddles isn't so loaded for her? She's are secure that affection isn't going to be withdrawn at the drop of a hat, so she doesn't need to wait breathlessly to see if you'll do so or not (maybe, just thinking...). Of course, there are some days where she just needs a cuddle!


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that perhaps in some instances the neutral parent allowing the child to solve/fix the presenting problem (which is the essence of L&L, rightly or wrongly) might work well for *a specific child*?

I've read L&L, know many people that practice it. (It seems to be quite the rage around here.) Personally, I think that it's better used in a classroom situation, with a caring teacher, than at home with a parent. But that's just because my definition of home is safer and more flexible than you can be in a classroom with 30 students. When I was a teacher, I used many of those principles to great success--but they don't intuitively feel right *to me* in a home situation.

However, I do admit to using some of the techniques to move to 'neutral face' when for whatever reason I am struggling with my temper during one of my child(ren)'s antics. And for those that haven't read the book, I wouldn't get too upset over the 'this is so sad' phrase--even in the book itself he states over and over to pick some familiar 'key phrase' that works for your family. I believe one example is "Oh no, what a bummer" or something like that. To be honest, maybe I am just the world's most horrible person/parent, but sometimes when my kids tantrum it REALLY pisses me off. Or they say something that might trigger some of my own past issues with abuse. In that moment, I need to be neutral, I need space, so that I can control my own rage. I guess I should have waited until I was all healed to have kids, but it's too late now. My children don't seem to be damaged when I say, "I understand you're upset, mama is angry too, and I need some space. I am going to sit in that chair, and you are going to stay in your room, until the timer goes off and then we can try again/talk about it." From the tone on this tread, many would disagree...but that's okay.

I do what I need to do to be a safe, sane, caring, loving parent.


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## wendizbaby (Jul 22, 2005)

I have a question....
I'm new to this board (only 20 weeks along right now) and have tried to read through most of the posts (there are a ton) AND have never read Playfull Parenting (but have read L&L). So if my question has already been answered or is very obvious, I apologize in advance. That said, after reading the posts, the thing I wondered over and over again was what about boundaries? Someone who uses the Playfull method gave a scenerio which sort of felt like the child was crossing HER boundaries, so how do you to convey this to a child through playing? I understand and completely agree that it's wrong to cross a child's boundaries as a human being, but when a child calls you a name or does something that is crossing YOUR boundaries, how do you let them know this without trivializing it?
Thanks!
Wendi


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Hi Wendi!









First, I think there is this idea that the book Playful Parenting is all about just playing with your kids, which I admit sounds as if discipline is being trivialized. It's about how children can often process difficult events, situations, or emotions through play and how you as a parent can get a window into those things by engaging them in that play. Or using play to diffuse the "power" of things like name-calling, aggressive play, etc. There are other great things about it, too. But it isn't about making a joke out of things that are important to you.

Anyways, on to your question. If a child does something that crosses your personal boundaries I think it's important to tell the child, but it's HOW you do that which distinguishes GD from other methods. I like to use "I" statements. As in "when you make a mess and then don't want to help clean it up, I feel annoyed. It creates more work for me to do and it doesn't seem fair to me when I didn't make the mess." End of lecture. I let her know how I feel about something and why, but I don't attach judgement to it (as in, "nice" or "bad" or "not nice", etc). And I don't suggest that she is responsible for my emotions. I would not say, for example, "you made me really angry". Because she doesn't control how I feel - I do - and also it's too big a burden to place on a small child, the idea that they are responsible for your feelings.

Surprisingly, children really do want to make you happy. And generally, all they need to know is that something upset you (without heaping guilt or shame on them or making them feel bad about themselves) and they will remember that and try better next time. When punishment and power struggles are not part of the equation, it frees them up to just take in what you are saying and want to do better. JMHO of course!









say to her "when you speak to me like that, I feel like you don't respect me". I try to use "when you do X, I feel Y" statements so she understands that I'm upset, but I don't place responsibility for my feelings


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UmmBnB*
When he is having a tantrum, talking to him just works him up even more.

One important thing I find, that hasn't been mentioned - it's very difficult to "teach" a child anything when they are in the midst of an emotional meltdown/tantrum. Even small furry lab animals cannot learn a task well if they are under acute stress, and children are no different. I know for me, I'm always trying to deal with the situation RIGHT NOW, in the moment, because I'm programmed with this crazy idea that if you don't address the behaviour right then and there, the child won't "get it". That whole pavlovian stuff about association. bleck.

My DD cannot listen well, or understand, or stop and think, or anything when she is tantruming. AFAIC, my only job at that moment is to comfort her in whatever way works for her (whether that's a hug, or giving her some space, empathize or not talk). Then LATER when she is happy and calm we discuss the incident.

It's hard to do this sometimes, to fight the urge to deal with the incident right at that moment, but when I do wait it all goes MUCH better when we do talk about it, and I feel she really listens to what I say and has learned something then.


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## wendizbaby (Jul 22, 2005)

Thank you for the feedback!








I totally agree with everything you said here. Will I find this type of info in a Playfull Parenting book or is this something you have integrated into your own parenting?

Wendi


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Wendi,

I think you will really like Playful Parenting. I first read it on loan from the library, and liked it so much that I bought a copy. Yes, Larry Cohen does give a lot of pragmatic ideas, including tips on learning to read your individual kid's signals to back off. Yes, he's big on joking around and using humor (and some people might find his endorsement of wrestling--non competative or forced, btw, just kind of a sensory/physical contact/energy releasing thing--troubling...but even that he explicitly states can be taken or left). But the title is somewhat misleading--he's not teaching you HOW to play with your kid or that you must all the time. It's more about not taking yourself overly seriously, strategies for helping you the parent retain control *of yourself*.

I've recommeneded it to a wide variety of people, and I've received positive feedback about it from almost everyone.

I actually like that his book doesn't read like an instruction manual or things to check off on the "holier than thou" list. It's more a launch point for brainstorming and a gentle encouragement to restructure your thinking about "who's in charge", "how to be in charge", and some different tools for relating to your kids.

I bet your local library has a copy! You could always check it out first and see how you like it.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Hi Wendi,
Yes, there is a book "Playful Parenting" by Lawrence Cohen.
You can take a look at it from Amazon and see if you'd like to read it
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846
To answer your question about boundaries, most of my issues with my kids occur about things that they very well know they should not be doing. The certainly do know that they are crossing a boundary by making messes or calling names. They must have been told countless times. But they still do these annoying things... So saying once more, "dd you spilled your milk and did not want to clean and this is causing me extra work and it does not seem fair to me", (although I do say that also) becomes *boring* .... so I try to spice it up by being more playful "uuuhhh no cleaning ahahah mommy monster's coming to eat you now".. and maybe after some chasing round by mommy monster, dd will clean her mess....
However to clarify, playing as Cohen defines it in his book is not only about jokes but is also and most of all about establishing a connection with the children. A wise mommy on this forum advised me to try "looking deeply into dd's eyes" (again something from Cohen's book) when she starts asking for the impossible (a common problem at our house). I haven't tried yet but I will. She calls this "mind melting"...


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## leomom (Aug 6, 2004)

Just wanted to come back and say that I read L&L for Early Childhood as one of the early posters suggested. I had just read Unconditional Parenting before it, and I have to say that I didn't see any conflicts with it and the L&L for early childhood...









Maybe I read it wrong?!?









Anyway, FWIW, I think there are lots of really valuable tools in this book. Some of the examples that have been focused on here are not the main focus of the book.

What I got out of it was that these things are important:

1. Give your child choices as much as possible
2. Always be sincere- never sarcastic or cold
3. Always be loving and never cruel
4. Let your child try to solve their own problems, but be there to offer suggestions when they want them
5. ALWAYS hug and let your child know that you love them unconditionally

Anyway, I thought it made a lot of sense. Did I agree with everything in the book? No. I never do. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with a phrase like "uh-oh" or "oh that is so sad". DD says Uh-oh when she drops toys, etc. so I just don't think that would work. That is so sad doesn't work for me because most of the things I wish dd wouldn't do (like throw her food on the floor) don't make me sad. So I wouldn't be able to be sincere. Instead, I've chosen to use the phrase, "oh that's too bad." It just feels more natural to me.

I'm off to read Playful Parenting now. I just wanted to touch base after reading this one...


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## kakies (Aug 8, 2002)




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## nurtureyourbabies (Aug 30, 2005)

I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I follow my natural mothering instincts. Sometimes I wonder if a lot of mainstream moms have lost this. We smother ourselves in books, "professionals", tv shows for goodness sakes that we forget who are the experts on our children. THE PARENTS! I admit that I refer to books on occasion, namely Natural Family Living, but I never take their word over my instinct. I just fail to see how lying and/or manipulating your kids is following your instinct.
By instinct I mean your natural mothering feelings. I don't vax DD. I did ALL the reasearch, talked it over with DH and the Dr. When it comes down to it, it just goes against my instinct. I don't hit my child b/c it goes against my mothering instinct. How does that teach my child anything? We co-sleep, b/c we LOVE it! I BF with child-lead weaning, duh! And no epi for me, birth is the ultimate empowerment we need to be mothers, how dare I try to "dull" that!
I come into contact with so many moms that are so confused. They want their kids to be adults and teach them adult lessons. My DH's 18 yr old brother has lived with us for 2 yrs. Let me tell you, even at that age he is still learning how to be a responsible adult. Why are we trying to teach 4 yr olds that paint costs money? I had an encounter with a mom who was frustrated and dissapointed that her 2 yr old was not yet potty trained. She said "it's just that this is the last thing he has to learn to be a real person, to potty on his own." I was so confused by this. She is also the same mom that was thinking of CIO with her 7 wk old and had turned off the monitor and walked outside b/c she couldn't stand it anymore when using CIO with her DS. I'm not saying anyone here does any of these things, just making a point.
I have said it before and I will say it again. These "problems" - potty training, not sleeping thru the night, coloring on the walls - are stepping stones we deal with on the road of mothering, these acts in themseleves does not comprise mothering nor should we judge our children on what kind of people the will be (ie graffiti artists) by age appropriate behavior.


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## moonpie's_mama (Oct 31, 2005)

... is 'unconditional parenting' by alfie kohn. it has some stuff about how praise is bad, which i sort of get but i think it can be taken to the extreme. but otherwise i loved and agreed with everything the author talks about.

it's all about respecting our children as people with feelings and opinions that matter, and about not using "love withdrawal" to punish them. it's awesome, my husband and i love the book.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Wonderfull post *Nurtureyourbabies*! I have to agree that we sometimes get overly "technical" if you will when all we really need is to listen to our heart


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## leomom (Aug 6, 2004)

I agree, nurtureyourbabies, but those of us who had a less than ap upbringing and a really rocky childhood sometimes don't have those natural ap instincts, or at least they can be hard to hear.

I guess I should just speak for myself, but I read lots of books b/c I am trying to break some unhealthy patterns in my family and it can be a real challenge. I guess the books help me keep it at the forefront of my mind and remind me why I'm doing what I do. And I really have no real life ap friends...I didn't even know what ap was until I stumbled here.

In fact, I'm embarressed to say that before I had dd, I didn't see anything wrong with spanking.







Now, of course, I do. I would never spank. But, the books I read help me feel confident and stand up for my beliefs when no one around me is doing what I am. For instance, people are always questioning me about vaxing and when I just give them my opinions, they argue and act like I'm crazy. But when I am armed with statistics, etc. that I get from the books I read, they listen more.

The same goes for AP parenting techniques. Since the books explain things in a really clear way, it is easier for me to explain things to my friends, and I am more likely to make a difference in their parenting styles, too. Does that make sense?

Also, ITA about trying to make kids grow up too fast. Have you read L&L? I think some things have been taken way out of context, at least the way I read it they have. It doesn't suggest teaching kids the cost of paint at an early age, or punishing, withholding love, etc. Honestly, I read Unconditional Parenting right before reading this book and I don't see conflicts between to two. I think it just depends on how you read it, I guess. Anyway, that's just my opinion, but I wonder if you might see more of what I mean if you read the book. Then again, you may have already read it and just read it differently than me.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leomom*
I agree, nurtureyourbabies, but those of us who had a less than ap upbringing and a really rocky childhood sometimes don't have those natural ap instincts, or at least they can be hard to hear.

I guess I should just speak for myself, but I read lots of books b/c I am trying to break some unhealthy patterns in my family and it can be a real challenge. I guess the books help me keep it at the forefront of my mind and remind me why I'm doing what I do.

I'm right here with you, leomom! My instincts are present when my babies are little, I can tell I shouldn't let them cry by the way my blood pressure goes up when they do. But when my dd got to be a toddler, my instinct, or at least my reflex, was to control her, scold her, get her "straightened out". My sister seems to have the ap instincts, though, and we were raised in the same family. I'm thankful people have written about this stuff and that there's MDC to help me out!


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## nurtureyourbabies (Aug 30, 2005)

Less than AP upbringing?? I'll give you less than AP upbringing. I was SPANKED, hard, really hard, like leaves raised hand prints all the way up and down both legs. Never have I ever felt unconditional love from my parents. We were constantly being told to "grow up" and "deal with it". Even during the most traumatic events in my life (my moms' breast cancer, the death of close friends and/or family members, even when I was sexually assualted) I was never held and craddled and loved. I hate to burst the bubble of your argument, but my upbringing was pretty much the OPPOSITE of AP.
I DO agree that it is most surely harder. I challenge myself everyday to be the parent I wish I would have had. I learned unconditional love from my DH. I also learned that all of those things I never got from my parents isn't my fault and as an adult now I have the responsibility to figure it all out on my own. I have forgiven them in my own heart and way lowered my expectations of them. That's why I value this board so much. Different oppinions, ideas, lifestyles. But we all have the same goal, to love our kids and do what is best for them. I know I'm not anywhere near the perfect mom and someday my daughter will be analyzing our relationship and my mothering style to develop her own. That's fine, I hope she learns from my mistakes.
As far as instincts go, I guess it means something different to everyone. Of course I read books and reasearch, it would be irresponsible not to. However, I don't do it so that I can defend my parenting choices to my parents/family members/friends. I don't need to. I am completely comfortable with my choices, if they don't like it or think I am ignorant, fine. I could really care less. I will admit it has taken me sometime to get here, but I will also admit it feels great. I have the love and support of DH who is amazingly trusting. We both follow our parenting instincts and it is a beautiful thing.


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## leomom (Aug 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nurtureyourbabies*
That's why I value this board so much. Different oppinions, ideas, lifestyles. But we all have the same goal, to love our kids and do what is best for them.

ITA!


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## nurtureyourbabies (Aug 30, 2005)




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## Niamh (Jan 17, 2005)

subbing cause i'm only on the first page and already hooked!


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