# WWYD: Friends' kids running amok in restaurant



## psychmama (Jun 9, 2007)

: I am a part of an informal group of moms with same aged kids (around age 3)who do things together--usually unstructured playdates or excursions. On those occasions, our parenting styles tend to be pretty similar, and there aren't too many limits on the kids besides basic safety and kindness to each other. Last night, we met up at a laid-back local pizza parlor. There were 4 moms and 4 kids. My daughter is tempermentally more cautious and reserved than the other kids, who tend to be pretty active and loud. Also, she and I frequently go on mom/daughter outings to restaurants/coffee shops, and she is pretty clear about expected behaviors. At the restaurant, the other kids over and over got out of the booth and ran screaming around the restaurant. When in the booth, they were yelling, whining, spitting water at each other, dumping the napkins on the floor, etc. Oh, and one child repeatedly hit his mom when she told him not to spit in her drink. DD and I were watching in amazement, and the other patrons, trying to enjoy their own pizza, were looking angrily at us. The parents made some attempts to reign them in--for instance, bringing them back to the table and telling them to stay (there were crayons and coloring sheets at the table), but then not stopping them from almost immediately getting up again--but nowhere near what I would have done in the same situation (I would have taken the child outside to calm down, explained the rules for the restaurant, and let her know that we would not be able to stay if that continued, and then left if necessary). I should say that two of the moms, including the mom of the hitter, are feeling pretty overwhelmed with marital crises so probably were not at their best. I really wanted to let the other moms know I was not comfortable with what their kids were doing in terms of making things unsafe for the waitstaff and unpleasant for the other patrons (and for me--I had a splitting headache by the end of the meal), but I wasn't sure how to do so without really offending them. I just kept my mouth shut and left a big tip, but now I am dreading invitations to any future restaurant meet-ups.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I would suggest to the group that if they want to meet up at a restaurant again to get the party room so the kids aren't at risk of running into waitstaff, irritating other diners and it might be less stressful. Otherwise maybe it'd just be more fun to get takeout and go to the park or someone's house.

My dd was pretty awful in restaurants for a long time (there was shoe throwing once). We handled it as best we could but ended up avoiding restaurants because she just wasn't ready for that environment. At 7 years she is great in restaurants. There is hope for those kids.


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## mcng (Oct 17, 2006)

I'm one of those moms whose kids run around in a restaurant if I were you the only thing I would do is considerer my self lucky


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## dinade (Nov 12, 2003)

I don't know that i would say anything. I would just carefully pick what I did with them from now on. Most people would be upset that you brought it up and really if they are having marital problems I'm sure they are just trying to keep it together ykwim?


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## JustKiya (Feb 5, 2007)

I would simply turn down any future restuarant invites, or make suggestions to go someplace else. The party room is also a good idea.

Personally, I couldn't handle going someplace I'm supposed to be enjoying, and coming out of it feeling frustrated, embarassed, and with a headache.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcng* 
I'm one of those moms whose kids run around in a restaurant if I were you the only thing I would do is considerer my self lucky

















: Once upon a time before the birth of my dd 2 years ago I would have written a post just like yours, my eldest who is 15 was a mellow laid back child who was great in public.. I talked a lot of poo-poo over the years about "those" other folks kids.

Enter my dd who is highly spirited, when we eat out sitting down unless the food is right in front of her just does not happen. We do plan accordingly and as a result we eat out a lot less







, however there are those times when we do a dinner and we just ride it out. I try to pick places and times where her running around is less likely to bug anyone (our fav place just closed, there were mega kiddo friendly, their closure means even less eating out for us).

Honestly there isn't much you can do but maybe offer support and try not to judge. If dd gets really crazy one of us will take her outside to decompress but there are sometimes when I am hungry as heck and well we stay







: .

I'd suggest take out and hanging at a park or somewhere else if you like these folks and want to hang with them again. We did that with some friends recently and it was nice, dd was able to run in thier backyard and there were no meltdowns. We were even able to engage in conversation







.

Shay


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Next time someone says "Let's go out for pizza" say "Better yet, let's get take out and eat it at the playground -- then we can really enjoy each other's company while the kids play!"

There's really not much you can do about other people's children's behavior in a circumstance like this, so change the circumstance to one where it will bother you less.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

I wouldn't say anything because like you said two of the moms are going through a really hard time right now. And frankly I can see being out to lunch with my 3.5 year old and leaving immediately if he acted up, but if I was really in need of adult interaction and my kids acted out I might try and rein him in more quietly in front of others or put up with more unsavory behavior than I usually would in order to continue to adult interaction with friends. Does that make any sense.

On the other side, I too am the lucky mom of an angel child. I know this, and I get little reminders often when in public of how fortunate I am to have a little boy who will quickly sit "butt down please" when I remind him, or who would never dream of throwing food or spitting. So I can imagine how difficult it must have been for you to be sitting in the middle of what for you must have been pure chaos. I would suggest staying home and ordering in pizza next time. And I think it's okay to say, "Oh restaurants seem rough on the kids, why not just get together at home instead, that way the kids can run around if they want, and we can get our chance for grown up talk while they play."


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## psychmama (Jun 9, 2007)

Thanks. Those are all good suggestions. If dinner gets suggested again, I will suggest takeout at a park next time, or just suggest another mom's night out w/out kids, which we have done before with more success (it's just that one of the moms is single and has trouble finding babysitters, so she often has to bail). Taking a step back, I know I probably am feeling too judgemental of their parenting, and if I were going through a really difficult time, it would be hard for me to be on my game or to want to clamp down on my kid (with possible ensuing tantrum) when I just wanted to eat pizza with my friends. But wow. It was really wild there for awhile. I think we provided years of birth control for all the college kids.


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## harmat (Jan 31, 2005)

If I know the other child and their parent well I will say something to the child, even if mom is present. I don't have a problem with that, and usually the other mom pitches in reinforcing what I just said.

The other thing I often do is to talk to dd, when I'm actually saying something to the other people present. Like reminding dd to take her shoes off, and everyone else will do the same, ykwim? So in your case I might "remind" dd about what behaviour I expect from her before we enter the restaurant. That way you also make your expectations clear to your friends without confronting anybody.

Of course avoiding the situation for a while could also work







.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcng* 
I'm one of those moms whose kids run around in a restaurant if I were you the only thing I would do is considerer my self lucky

















:

Some kids are just better behaved in restaraunts than others. These other moms may have felt very uncomfortable themselves - the kids are going crazy and very excited because they are out to eat with each other and they don't want to spend the entire time correcting them or making a bigger scene. I feel bad for them!!!


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quite frankly, I wouldn't worry about offending people who allow their children to act like that.

Kids might very well, "be kids", but there is no reason children cannot be taught basic manners and not spit, hit, and run like wild animals in a place of business. If my kids acted like that, we would leave, pronto. The consequence of your actions and all of that.

I have a child with Autism. He will act up in a restaurant or other public place sometimes. You know what we do? We either leave, or me or DH takes him out until he can get himself together again. I respect my child and other people too much to allow him to be out of control like that.

I don't expect perfection and them to sit like statues. But there is a middle ground between the OP's post and expecting perfection. A LOT of middle ground.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
Next time someone says "Let's go out for pizza" say "Better yet, let's get take out and eat it at the playground -- then we can really enjoy each other's company while the kids play!"

There's really not much you can do about other people's children's behavior in a circumstance like this, so change the circumstance to one where it will bother you less.

YES I wholeheartedly agree with this.

My kids are restaurant runners as well, and it drives me batty!!

So I just avoid it.







:


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aura_Kitten* 
YES I wholeheartedly agree with this.

My kids are restaurant runners as well, and it drives me batty!!

So I just avoid it.







:

I think that would be the best thing, too.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle* 
Quite frankly, I wouldn't worry about offending people who allow their children to act like that.

These aren't just random people, these are her friends that she sees on a regular basis.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

I used to get really annoyed at my mom's group that would have "playdates" at horrible places like restaurants. I knew that if I went, it would be 30 seconds getting to talk to parents, maybe five minutes chasing my DD around, then finally leaving, exasperated. Those places just don't work for many children. If those parents did intervene appropriately with their kids, hopefully it would be obvious to the rest of the group that it was NOT a relaxing and fun time for those parents and it increased, not decreased, their stress.

I was so relieved when we started having get togethers at places that met all the families needs, not just the ones with kids who could sit still for long periods and crayon or whatever.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Yeah restaurant playgroups just sound like a disaster in the making!!!


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
I used to get really annoyed at my mom's group that would have "playdates" at horrible places like restaurants. I knew that if I went, it would be 30 seconds getting to talk to parents, maybe five minutes chasing my DD around, then finally leaving, exasperated. Those places just don't work for many children. If those parents did intervene appropriately with their kids, hopefully it would be obvious to the rest of the group that it was NOT a relaxing and fun time for those parents and it increased, not decreased, their stress.

I was so relieved when we started having get togethers at places that met all the families needs, not just the ones with kids who could sit still for long periods and crayon or whatever.

My play group does a once a week get together at someone's home on purpose because of this. We try to do an activity one day a week out, even just the park. But once a week we get together at a house, where the kids can play more freely without us having to watch them every single second and a mom can get a chance to catch up with a girlfriend.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
These aren't just random people, these are her friends that she sees on a regular basis.

If they are such good friends, she should be able to talk to them without worrying about offending them.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

(bolding and blue mine)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *psychmama* 







: I am a part of an *informal group of moms* with same aged kids (around age 3)who do things together--*usually unstructured* playdates or excursions. On those occasions, our *parenting styles tend to be pretty similar*, and there aren't too many limits on the kids besides basic safety and kindness to each other. *So, is it safe to say that you know these moms and their kids fairly well? If that's true, then you ought to be able to a) ask if it's okay for you to intervene a little or b) offer to take a couple of them to the bathroom for hand-washing or some such in order to break up the pack a bit...* Last night, we met up at a laid-back local pizza parlor. There were 4 moms and 4 kids. My daughter is tempermentally more cautious and reserved than the other kids, who tend to be pretty active and loud. Also, she and I frequently go on mom/daughter outings to restaurants/coffee shops, and she is pretty clear about expected behaviors. At the restaurant, the other kids over and over got out of the booth and ran screaming around the restaurant. When in the booth, they were yelling, whining, spitting water at each other, dumping the napkins on the floor, etc. Oh, and one child repeatedly hit his mom when she told him not to spit in her drink. DD and I were watching in amazement, and the other patrons, trying to enjoy their own pizza, were looking angrily at us. *The parents made some attempts to reign them in*--for instance, bringing them back to the table and telling them to stay (there were crayons and coloring sheets at the table), but then not stopping them from almost immediately getting up again--but nowhere near what I would have done in the same situation (I would have taken the child outside to calm down, explained the rules for the restaurant, and let her know that we would not be able to stay if that continued, and then left if necessary). *What you would have done with your own child is probably why she's so great in restaurants... You saw that the other moms were making attempts (albeit unsuccessful ones) which, again, may have provided you an excellent chance to offer some back-up... kids are kids, but even 3 yo's have the wherewithal to understand an acquaintence-adult saying something like "Excuse me ____, it makes me sad to see you hit your mom... hands are not for hitting. Spitting in her drink is yucky, and it hurts your mom's feelings when you are not nice. She has asked you to stop, please respect your mom."* I should say that two of the moms, including the mom of the hitter, are feeling pretty overwhelmed with marital crises *so probably were not at their best*. I really wanted to let the other moms know *I was not comfortable* with what their kids were doing in terms of making things unsafe for the waitstaff and unpleasant for the other patrons (and for me--I had a splitting headache by the end of the meal), but I wasn't sure how to do so without really offending them. I just kept my mouth shut and left a big tip, but now I am dreading invitations to any future restaurant meet-ups. *So, were you just unsure of how to proceed? It seems as tho you had all the signals that your assisstance might have been greatly needed and probably appreciated; you know these women well enough to know that a couple of marriages are in rough patches, did you not think they would be open to your input? You acknowledge that these moms weren't at their best, as well as your own discomfort... How do you think it would have played out if you would have asserted your discomfort ("I'm really feeling over-stimulated... ")and offered some alternative ways to handle these children's behavior ("... maybe ___ will settle down a bit if someone other than Mom says something, what do you think?")?*

I hang out with a couple of groups, too, and honestly, one of the best things about a group of like-minded moms with similar parenting styles is that it's often (or at least it _should_ often be) easier. In social animals, (primates, wolves, lions, whales, and humans alike) parents need the help of the whole pack in order to accomplish hunting, foraging, shelter-staking, bedding-down, and eating... the helpers are called allo-parents and in the "It takeas a village" scenario, healthy family groups often have several allo-parents they count on for that back-up in social situations, family and friendly get-togethers, etc. Next time, don't hold back. From the things you said (that I bolded) you know on some level that these moms would trust you and value your input. Wouldn't you, if your child was acting like a maniac in a public place? Plus which, they might be mortified for a second to know you actually got a nasty head ache out of the scene... but they'd be able to take a look at ways to handle the public behavior differently, through your point of view.

Maybe after you do some inner dialogue and work up some ways to approach it that you will be comfortable with, you ought to broach the subject with the other moms, maybe in a group email, or in a one-on-one conversation. Ex: "So, wow! That pizza night was a little hectic... I actually left there with a splitting headache... Maybe there are some other activities we could bring to help keep the kids from running amok, again... Is there anything you think I might be able to do to help if that situation happens again? I know you've got a lot on your plate these days, would you feel comfortable with my intervening, if I see you getting over-whelmed?"

Plus too, I don't know if you have them in your town, but we have these great pizza parlors called Papa's Pizza, where they have an enormous play room, glassed in, with climbing structures and pads... We have date-nights there with other families so that the parents can chat it up and the kids can freak out, in relative safety.


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## finn'smama (Jan 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcng* 
I'm one of those moms whose kids run around in a restaurant if I were you the only thing I would do is considerer my self lucky

















: I'm one of those moms too, and we just don't go to restaurants right now.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcng* 
I'm one of those moms whose kids run around in a restaurant if I were you the only thing I would do is considerer my self lucky









But do you allow them to behave to the extent described in the OP? I don't think most people's problem stems from what the kids are doing; it stems from how the parents react. I mean, forgetting to use a quiet voice and needing to move around are understandable, but spitting? Hitting? That's pretty extreme behavior to just let slide.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
But do you allow them to behave to the extent described in the OP? I don't think most people's problem stems from what the kids are doing; it stems from how the parents react. I mean, forgetting to use a quiet voice and needing to move around are understandable, but spitting? Hitting? That's pretty extreme behavior to just let slide.

ITA. Would you just let it go, or avoid public places with a _friend_ if they behaved like a pre-schooler? No. You'd say something to the effect of "You know, the way you're acting is giving me a headache. Would you please stop?" With kids, we have just as much a right to let our feelings be known; that's a teachable moment where a friend cna illustrate assertiveness and a child may begin to understand respect and empathy.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle* 
If they are such good friends, she should be able to talk to them without worrying about offending them.

If approached nicely and with understanding this is true, but your original post indicated a lack of caring if they were offended, hence the reason I pointed out that you might have missed these are good friends that she cares about. Quite different.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
If approached nicely and with understanding this is true, but your original post indicated a lack of caring if they were offended, hence the reason I pointed out that you might have missed these are good friends that she cares about. Quite different.


Okay, point taken. Fair enough.

I really didn't mean for her to rip them up or anything. But, if she approaches them and they get offended anyway, well...then I guess I just wouldn't care. Because there is no reason for children to be allowed to behave in that way.


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## Alohamelly (Jul 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
Next time someone says "Let's go out for pizza" say "Better yet, let's get take out and eat it at the playground -- then we can really enjoy each other's company while the kids play!"

There's really not much you can do about other people's children's behavior in a circumstance like this, so change the circumstance to one where it will bother you less.

I had a couple of friends with kids like that when my DD was younger and this was what I ended up doing. I avoided going to restaurants with them ever again. I just couldn't allow my daughter the same kind of freedom my friends allowed their children. I like to try and be courteous to those around me, especially in places like restaurants, which IMO are not appropriate places for running around and acting wild. Go to a park for that. It still bothers me to see kids acting like that in restaurants to this day.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I think there were two things you could have done in that situation (and people who let their kids behave that way in a restaurant are my pet peeve so I am a little biased.)

1) Comment on how antsy everyone is and suggest we pack everything up to go and finish the play date at the park. That way moms get their breaks and kids are in an environment suited for running and screaming. The staff and patrons can relax. and then in the future avoid going to places like that with them. They will figure it out eventually.

2) simply make an excuse and leave so that the poor behavior won't reflect badly on you and your family. I absolutely refuse to stay in a place with my friends when they will not insist on decent behavior and good manners from their children. another option here would be to make sure if someone suggests a restaurant you pick one with a playland.


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## psychmama (Jun 9, 2007)

Thanks again for the feedback. To clarify a bit, these are people whom I would describe as moderately close friends, and who are definitely a part of my support system. Our kids all attend the same preschool, we go to the same events, and usually plan events with each other at least a couple weekends per month. So it would be awkward to have a big rift with any of them.

PrennaMama, wow, I appreciate your detailed response. I think you made some really good points. I think my worry about giving offense (which is something I think about way too much) got in the way of an opportunity to help. You're right that they would probably not have gotten upset, and I do think I could intervene in a caring manner if I did it in the way you describe. I like the concept of allo-parents. That reminds me of a recent, long-anticipated and planned trip to the beach with this same group, plus one of my closest friends. My daughter was terrified of the waves and refused to budge from our beach chairs and had a fit when I tried to slowly ease her toward the water (the downside of having a temperamentally cautious child!), which was very frustrating for me, despite my attempts to be empathic. So I was snappish and impatient and she was upset, and I just felt awful. My close friend came up and distracted and held her and sang to her, while waving me off to go get in the water myself. I was definitely grateful rather than offended (of course, the situation was a little less awkward than the pizza parlor).

Anyway, in the future, I will not suggest any restaurant outings (this one was not my idea btw), and if they are suggested, I will try to offer alternatives like takeout at the park. And I am also going to try to gently offer help instead of just sitting there.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

(in addition to the realization that you have more power than you might have thought... maybe the whole thing was just a really good way for you to see how great your tempermentally cautious dd is... my niece is this way, my dd is the hard charger... the two (dd=31 mo, dn=27 mo) are an interesting pair in these situations, and my sil & I totally utilize each other as allo-parents!!)


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
Next time someone says "Let's go out for pizza" say "Better yet, let's get take out and eat it at the playground -- then we can really enjoy each other's company while the kids play!"

There's really not much you can do about other people's children's behavior in a circumstance like this, so change the circumstance to one where it will bother you less.









:

Plan it to be somewhere where you don't have to worry about their behavior. Less stressful for you, and for them. I've got one cautious kid who we didn't take out to eat because the noise in restaurants freaked him out, and one non-cautious kid who we didn't take out to eat because she would climb over the booth seats to 'chat' with the people behind us. Not everyone wants a 2 year old invading their dinner party! Take out is a lovely solution for all kinds of kids!


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Is it possible for that many kids to sit at a table that long? From my experience, they are excited to see each other and want to run and play, not sit at the table. My son is TERRIBLE if we try to go out with other families who have kids, but he is good on his own.

We don;t do restaurants w/other families if we can avoid it for this reason. it gets







: w/in about 6 minutes!!

BTW...your DD sounds like she does really good in those situations...I am JEALOUS!! You must get to do lotsdof fun things with her that other children her age wouldn't be able to calm down enough for!


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcng* 
I'm one of those moms whose kids run around in a restaurant if I were you the only thing I would do is considerer my self lucky


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Is it possible for that many kids to sit at a table that long? From my experience, they are excited to see each other and want to run and play, not sit at the table.

My thoughts exactly! My vote is with those who suggest a park or someone's home.

The people saying they're peeved at parents who "let" their children act up in restaurants, must have no idea what it's like to parent very spirited small children and toddlers.

Just as I have no idea what it's like to take a 2 or 3 year old to a restaurant, with a bunch of other children, and have her sit quietly, color, and not do anything "wild." But I don't judge any of you who have these quiet children.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

_i wouldn't do meals w/them...park, ok...zoo, ok....dinner no freaking way!_


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## Hayes (Nov 20, 2001)

Seriously? You mamas let your kids run around in restaurants? Do you have any idea how dangerous that is? There are servers with hot food, glasses, liquids, etc. walking around. Not to mention the other patrons who might be walking around.

This is a safety issue.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I think restaurants are a great opportunity to teach good manners - and with any teaching opportunity, it is not easy to do and requires a consensus as to the rules.

Is there any way to agree as a group to "restaurant rules" for all kids? Our family has started introducing the idea of restaurant rules that everyone in the family (kids and adults) know and need to obey. That way, if we are out to dinner with my in laws and I am having trouble keeping the kids under control, my MIL or step mom or whomever has my back and reinforces the rules.

I could see having a conversation with the other moms saying "do you mind if we come up with restaurant rules when we take the kids out? I get concerned that when the kids are rowdy, they could get hurt or cause other people distress and it would be great for them to know that there is one set of rules we all follow. And I think reinforcing good manners is always a great thing to do with kids."

Our restaurant rules are:

* We do not run in restaurants; we walk.
* No child leaves the table without an adult accompanying or under adult direction (I will send my son off to get napkins or something in fast food restaurants). Adults tell others where they are going when they leave the table.
* We stay at the table when others are still eating.
* We use our inside voices and our good conversation manners (no interrupting, etc).
* We treat our food and other people's food with respect (no throwing food, no touching other people's food, no stealing food).
* We clean up after ourselves.

Of course, if a child is unable to comply (either too young or tired, or other issue), my dh and I will take our kid outside. I always go to restaurants with crayons/paper, little cars, etc. and we do a lot of active distraction. I have been known to do silly games ("who can make the weirdest face?") to keep kids from getting too rowdy. But we also limit our time in restaurants like this because most kids under age 5 cannot sit still for that long and it is too exhausting for parents and kids to attempt it, in my opinion.

Good luck!


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## wombat (Nov 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
Next time someone says "Let's go out for pizza" say "Better yet, let's get take out and eat it at the playground -- then we can really enjoy each other's company while the kids play!"

There's really not much you can do about other people's children's behavior in a circumstance like this, so change the circumstance to one where it will bother you less.

Yeah that.

I hate taking my kids out to eat, mine are the ones that run amok. I'm always mortified when someone suggests a restaurant playdate. And it's no fun for my kids either being contained in the booth. Major stress all around, and I feel for the other patrons too.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
My thoughts exactly! My vote is with those who suggest a park or someone's home.

*The people saying they're peeved at parents who "let" their children act up in restaurants, must have no idea what it's like to parent very spirited small children and toddlers.*

Just as I have no idea what it's like to take a 2 or 3 year old to a restaurant, with a bunch of other children, and have her sit quietly, color, and not do anything "wild." But I don't judge any of you who have these quiet children.










I have a 2 yr old, a 9 yr old, and my 8 yr old has Autism. Yes, I know the meaning of spirited and definitely unpredictable. No, they are not perfect. But, we have been able to enjoy meals out for the most part, because they know what is expected of them. The 2 yr old has his moments, but he is in a high chair and we bring toys and books, etc, to entertain him. We practice at home by eating together as a family and teaching table manners.

I don't get this mentality that some parents have that their children are the center of the entire universe and everyone else can just suck it up and deal. Some people act like if their child is expected to do anything, except for what they want, when they want and how they want, it is going to somehow ruin them for life.

There is a lot of room between kids acting like statues and running wild.

You can teach your children not to run in restaurants and not scream without beating them into submission. And let me tell you, it is no fun when a big 8 yr old has a meltdown. But, you know, I take him out to the car or we just leave. The same with the other two. If a situation cannot be brought down to a reasonable level of noise, etc, we leave. I do not expect other people to put up with my child screaming for a long period of time, or running wild and out of control. Does it suck? Yep, sometimes it can be very frustrating. But, that is part of being a parent. I also believe that it is part of raising civilized human beings to teach them to have consideration for other people.

AND...as a former server, I know that it is dangerous to have children running wild in the restaurant, unless it is a place that has a playland or something. Dangerous for everyone, workers and the children.

But, it seems that some feel that no one matters, except the children.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I know the meaning of spirited but if my children misbehave in a resteraunt we leave. Resteraunts are not my private playgrounds. They are business. unless my kids can sit and behave they are simply do not go. We have only had to leave a couple times for each kid before they got the point. And when we do go it is to eat. I would never expect kids to hang out and be socially acceptable for long periods of time in a place like a resteraunt. I either get a sitter or decline the invite. thats just torture for everyone. I enjoy sitting and chatting over a cup of coffee. my children do not. and I do not enjoy the level of parenting it takes to keep them sane in that environment. So we skip it.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

My kids are not very well behaved at restaurants which is why we rarely take them. They don't run around or anything but they can get loud and play more than they eat their food. I have been thinking that my lack of social outings with them(restaurants types i mean) may be hindering their development of this. how can I expect them to behave well at a place i rarely let them go to (because of their behavior, lol). Th next time that type of outing come up I would simply say I didn't think I would go because the kids were a bit wild last time and you left with a headache. It may be passive aggressive but I wouldn't say anything else.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Got to throw this out there.

While I left a post above encouraging the OP not to say anything to the mothers and in support of the women who's kids were running around the restaurant, I have seen a lot of bashing of others who "just don't understand what it's like to have a spirited child" on this thread. Meaning mostly those who are childless or who are lucky enough to have kids that don't need a lot of redirection in public places. I've seen posts saying it's wrong to blame the parents when this happens. Welll I think you are wrong. I think it *is* the parents fault if a child is running around a restaurant. Why? Because you're the adult, and if your kids is screaming, spitting, running around, which is dangerous to themselves, the other patrons and to the wait staff who often are carrying things, then it is your responsibility, not your child's to flag down a server and tell them politely, "We are going to need you to box up what's left of our meal and bring us the check, my little one is not having an easy time sitting today."

I have a kid who is great in restaurants now. He had a phase for about 6 months where we just couldn't eat out with him. 3.5 of those months were when we were on our cross country road trip of the USA, and we didn't have a kitchen. I got so sick and tired of sandwiches on that trip i can't ever tell you. Some nights DP would go to a fancy restaurant and order food for us to go and I'd be eating lobster ravioli with plastic utensils, and drinking wine out of a Styrofoam cup sitting cross legged on the bed of our motel room, just to give us a break from the fast food. but there just was no way we could enjoy a meal in a restaurant when we knew that DS was going to disturb other patrons and employees.

some times you just have to suck it up, and be a parent. And being a parent means some days that you don't get to do what you want to do, no matter how much you were looking forward to it. I know I did 3.5 months on the road in the USA looking forward to trying all sorts of different places around the country. Sometimes you have to give that up because you are the adult and no matter how much it sucks, you live with it because you're a parent and you're lucky enough to have a child to love and who loves you back.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
Got to throw this out there.

While I left a post above encouraging the OP not to say anything to the mothers and in support of the women who's kids were running around the restaurant, I have seen a lot of bashing of others who "just don't understand what it's like to have a spirited child" on this thread. Meaning mostly those who are childless or who are lucky enough to have kids that don't need a lot of redirection in public places. I've seen posts saying it's wrong to blame the parents when this happens. Welll I think you are wrong. I think it *is* the parents fault if a child is running around a restaurant. Why? Because you're the adult, and if your kids is screaming, spitting, running around, which is dangerous to themselves, the other patrons and to the wait staff who often are carrying things, then it is your responsibility, not your child's to flag down a server and tell them politely, "We are going to need you to box up what's left of our meal and bring us the check, my little one is not having an easy time sitting today."

I have a kid who is great in restaurants now. He had a phase for about 6 months where we just couldn't eat out with him. 3.5 of those months were when we were on our cross country road trip of the USA, and we didn't have a kitchen. I got so sick and tired of sandwiches on that trip i can't ever tell you. Some nights DP would go to a fancy restaurant and order food for us to go and I'd be eating lobster ravioli with plastic utensils, and drinking wine out of a Styrofoam cup sitting cross legged on the bed of our motel room, just to give us a break from the fast food. but there just was no way we could enjoy a meal in a restaurant when we knew that DS was going to disturb other patrons and employees.

some times you just have to suck it up, and be a parent. And being a parent means some days that you don't get to do what you want to do, no matter how much you were looking forward to it. I know I did 3.5 months on the road in the USA looking forward to trying all sorts of different places around the country. Sometimes you have to give that up because you are the adult and no matter how much it sucks, you live with it because you're a parent and you're lucky enough to have a child to love and who loves you back.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Jeca - Some things that helped us was to actually practice taking the kids to resteraunts. we would go at lunch or between meals when our food would come fast and the resteraunt would not be so crowded. we would get to go containers when we sat down in case we needed to make an escape. Once they could handle that we started heading towards dinner time . . .


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I would no longer go to restaurant meet ups unless it is a place like McD's with a playland. If my son ever acted that way in a restaurant he would be given a warning, then we would leave (and we have done this before). Running and yelling is not appropriate restaurant behavior.


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcng* 
I'm one of those moms whose kids run around in a restaurant if I were you the only thing I would do is considerer my self lucky









I once saw a very lovely 18-19 year old waitress dump a try of hot food and drinks on herself rather than have it fall on the 4 year who ran into her because his mother didn't bother to do something about her "runner".

That waitress was someone's little girl too. I bet after seeing their daughter's burns they wouldn't think there was anything funny about kids running around restaurants. I know I didn't find it fun when I saw it happen.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

well, I sure never said I "let my kids run around in restaurants." I said I vote for having get-togethers in places where they're free to run around, such as parks or peoples' homes.

I'm all for small children getting opportunities to learn how to behave in restaurants. With my own family, this works best when my dh and I take our girls out together -- usually just our immediate family, not a big group with a bunch of other children.

So I've never even attempted the type of situation described by the OP. Well, I did attend a birthday party in a pizza place with my oldest when she was going on four, and my youngest was still just a twinkle in my eye. While this went fine with my almost 4yo, it's not something I think I'd enjoy with a toddler -- but now that I have a 7yo and a 2yo, sometimes to meet my older child's needs I end up in situations my toddler's not quite ready to "handle" yet.

I'm not saying that means it'd be "okay," or a laughing matter, for me to let my toddler create a disruption that caused an injury. I don't think any of the moms with spirited children are saying it's "funny" for children to run around in restaurants and potentially cause harm to themselves or others.

What I've been hearing most or all of them suggest is moving the party to a more child-friendly location.


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## pixilixi (Jun 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
well, I sure never said I "let my kids run around in restaurants." I said I vote for having get-togethers in places where they're free to run around, such as parks or peoples' homes.

I'm all for small children getting opportunities to learn how to behave in restaurants. With my own family, this works best when my dh and I take our girls out together -- usually just our immediate family, not a big group with a bunch of other children.

Great point. I vote on choosing a more child-friendly place for the get-togethers and save the "learning opportunities" for a time when it's just family or maybe a *close* friend and child. Who needs the stress of constant corrections, re-directions etc when there is fun and socialisation to be enjoyed? Save the restaurant group outings for when the littlies have had plenty of practice and truly understand about appropriate restaurant behaviour - AND can handle it within a group.

Not that I can talk from experience exactly - my ds is only 15 months old. But I used to *hate* going to cafes with a group of other mothers and babes as mine has always been very restless, wanting to crawl and walk around from a very young age, when other babes were happy sitting in their prams... Of course I always attended to him and kept him safe and from getting in the way, but I got zero relaxation and socialisation - I should've stayed at home. I can only imagine group restaurant outings would belong in the same category of stressful, un-fun times.


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
well, I sure never said I "let my kids run around in restaurants." I said I vote for having get-togethers in places where they're free to run around, such as parks or peoples' homes.

????? You weren't the person who posted the statement I quoted, so I'm not sure why you are responding as if I had spoken to you personally. I was responding purely to that statement.

I absolutely agree that going to places that are less motion-restrictive for kids who haven't learned to sit still for the duration of a meal is a good way to handle it. As parents we have to make sure our kids are in positions they can handle.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I don't think any of the moms with spirited children are saying it's "funny" for children to run around in restaurants and potentially cause harm to themselves or others.

I disagree. I think there were several posts that made light of it with a kind of "oh well, hahah, my spirited child, haha". I think that is a dangerous attitude to have.

I am NOT saying that any parent who has a hard time keeping a child in a booth seat needs to feel evil, or terrible or anything like that.

I am saying that it is a problem. And one that needs to be controlled even if it means that you don't eat in a restaurant for 2.5 years until the child has the capacity to sit politely in the restaurant.

And frankly, I am really tired of reading posts that go on about people that don't have a "spirited child" not know how hard it is, not understanding, etc., etc. Any kid of any temperment is capable of having a restaurant melt-down. It's not about the kids, it's about the parenting.


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## happyfrog (Aug 12, 2004)

we don't dine out at restaurants anymore as my 2 children are just too hard to handle - when in those kinds of settings, they want to run around and explore - not gonna happen, SO instead we do a lot of eating in our back yard. they can eat and play and eat some more - running around as they desire where no one will be offended.

if restaurants are offered, we offer alternatives - usually dinner/meals at our place instead. *grin* we know our reality at this time.

those who have 'angel' children - enjoy it while it lasts but be understanding if you have a friend who regularly suggests luncheons at their house instead.









some day, we'll eat out again. . . .

bettyann


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Just to be clear, I'm personally not offended. I like little kids! I love to see them laughing and having fun. But my heart stops when I see them running or crawling around in restaurants.

It's hard for a waitress to even see a small child because they walk with trays in front of them.

It's that "OMG ... hey parent, get your baby, she's going to get hurt!" feeling.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
Just to be clear, I'm personally not offended. I like little kids! I love to see them laughing and having fun. But my heart stops when I see them running or crawling around in restaurants.

It's hard for a waitress to even see a small child because they walk with trays in front of them.

It's that "OMG ... hey parent, get your baby, she's going to get hurt!" feeling.


See, that is my point too. Just because I don't think it is appropriate to allow a child to run wild in a restaurant, does not mean I don't like kids. Heck, I have 3 of them myself. Nothing gives me more pleasure than to watch kids playing on a playground or in the yard. To watch them run, and laugh and play games, ride bikes, etc.

But, there is a time and a place for everything.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
I disagree. I think there were several posts that made light of it with a kind of "oh well, hahah, my spirited child, haha". I think that is a dangerous attitude to have.

Well speaking as one of the people that quoted the statement you quoted and laughed about it I can tell you that obviously I wasn't laughing about children running around in a restaurant and possibly getting hurt. I was more laughing at this image of a mother with a daughter sitting perfectly at the table and these other mothers with hair up on end trying to control their children who are going crazy in the restaurant. And the first mother just not understanding why children would act that way. The scene in my mind was rather funny as it seems like a no-brainer to me that a playgroup at a restaurant is a really, really bad idea.

Geesh excuse some of us for having a sense of humor I guess...

The OP stated that the mothers actually did try to talk to their children and control them at times but the kids were obviously over excited and feeding off each other and couldn't handle being in this restaraunt "play date". It must have been a difficult situation for all.


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## amitymama (Nov 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
I disagree. I think there were several posts that made light of it with a kind of "oh well, hahah, my spirited child, haha". I think that is a dangerous attitude to have.

I am NOT saying that any parent who has a hard time keeping a child in a booth seat needs to feel evil, or terrible or anything like that.

I am saying that it is a problem. And one that needs to be controlled even if it means that you don't eat in a restaurant for 2.5 years until the child has the capacity to sit politely in the restaurant.

And frankly, I am really tired of reading posts that go on about people that don't have a "spirited child" not know how hard it is, not understanding, etc., etc. Any kid of any temperment is capable of having a restaurant melt-down. It's not about the kids, it's about the parenting.

Absolutely. This 'waaah, my child is spirited, waaaah, you don't know how hard it is' is pretty tiresome. Everyone's children have meltdowns in public and each child has his/her own unique set of challenges. If a parent hasn't figured out how to best deal with their spirited child in public so that their 'spiritedness' doesn't bother others, then they're just not ready to be taken to these types of places.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Just to add to some of the great ideas here (takeout, practising at odd times with just the immediate family), we bought some "good china" at garage sales and have a fancy meal at home once a week. Most of the time we are pretty lax about manners and stuff (and my son's a toddler, but my niece & nephews often are here staying with us), but when we have a fancy meal we ALL practice our manners. And sometimes get dressed up and use funny accents too.







It's actually kind of fun to do, and gives kids a reference - without the pressure of learning in public.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I'm embarrassed by these sorts of situations also.

I always feel like it reflects so badly on AP and GD, as we're sitting around bfing, slinging, and trying to shush our children....while onlookers go, "Good god, remind me never to raise my kids like THAT!"

And my kids are spirited. And they occasionally act up. But we really, really try not to inflict their "kid-ness" on those around us. If it's too much for them (and/or others) to handle, then we just leave.

I've limited my public outings with families over the years b/c of these sorts of incidents. I'm not comfortable witnessing or being party to that sort of behavior.

Park and home playgroups sound much, much better!


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
The OP stated that the mothers actually did try to talk to their children and control them at times but the kids were obviously over excited and feeding off each other and couldn't handle being in this restaraunt "play date". It must have been a difficult situation for all.

Actually the OP said _"they made some attempts"_. And then they continued to sit there after the attempts didn't work.

And THAT is the problem. Hell, I can't remember the number of times I had to get up from someplace leaving a food on the table, a movie half watched or a shopping cart of food in aisle because it was time to take my kid home!

So, I am not being a mean nasty person who expects every child in the world to sit with hands folded and mouths shut every time they are out in public. Quite the opposite.

I do expect parents to react to help their kids when their behavior is dangerous to themselves or others. And running around in a restaurant is that kind of behavior.

Again, it's not about the kids. It's about the parents.


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
If it's too much for them (and/or others) to handle, then we just leave.

Thank you mama, that's what I am trying to say. And we have ALL been there! I can remember hustling my now 25 year old daughter out of a Friendly's when she was 3 because she would not stop whacking the the little old man behind us on the head!

He was very bald and she just was fascinated with his shiny head and wanted to smack like it was a bongo. We got out of there fast!

So we have all been there.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I guess I just have an easier time being empathetic to everyone in the OP's scenario.


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

It's possible to be both empathetic to the situation AND have expectations that the parent is going to do something about it when their child is putting herself and others at risk for being hurt.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
He was very bald and she just was fascinated with his shiny head and wanted to smack like it was a bongo. We got out of there fast!

Bwah! Love it!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
I guess I just have an easier time being empathetic to everyone in the OP's scenario.

Truly, it's not that I'm not empathetic, I just think that in that situation it's a death spiral and you gotta pretty much cut and run. My kids don't really recover from that sort of behavior to sitting quietly and camly--esp. if the food is gone!









So, for me, at that point, it's frustrating and embarrassing and it's not doing anyone any favors to stay.

And it wasn't until I was in public with folks who didn't try to curb disruptive kids that I realized how much I can't take it. And I'm the consensual freak on the GD board going, "Can you just let it go....??" LOL


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
ITA. Would you just let it go, or avoid public places with a _friend_ if they behaved like a pre-schooler? No. You'd say something to the effect of "You know, the way you're acting is giving me a headache. Would you please stop?" With kids, we have just as much a right to let our feelings be known; that's a teachable moment where a friend cna illustrate assertiveness and a child may begin to understand respect and empathy.

ITA. I don't know why we so often feel like we can't talk to kids, can't insert our own feelings into the equation. I think it is a really, really good thing to do.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
Got to throw this out there.

While I left a post above encouraging the OP not to say anything to the mothers and in support of the women who's kids were running around the restaurant, I have seen a lot of bashing of others who "just don't understand what it's like to have a spirited child" on this thread. Meaning mostly those who are childless or who are lucky enough to have kids that don't need a lot of redirection in public places. I've seen posts saying it's wrong to blame the parents when this happens. Welll I think you are wrong. I think it *is* the parents fault if a child is running around a restaurant. Why? Because you're the adult, and if your kids is screaming, spitting, running around, which is dangerous to themselves, the other patrons and to the wait staff who often are carrying things, then it is your responsibility, not your child's to flag down a server and tell them politely, "We are going to need you to box up what's left of our meal and bring us the check, my little one is not having an easy time sitting today."

as the parent of an older spirited child (sometimes the younger one is the "crazy in public" one) I agree.









I won't give you an excuse! It's awful. I hate it when it happens (never in restaurants, usually in a department store) and we leave.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
????? You weren't the person who posted the statement I quoted, so I'm not sure why you are responding as if I had spoken to you personally. I was responding purely to that statement.

I'm sorry. I didn't take your statement, or anyone else's, as being directed exclusively toward me. I was simply responding to ALL posters who seemed critical of those of us whose children sometimes act wild in public.

Quote:

I am NOT saying that any parent who has a hard time keeping a child in a booth seat needs to feel evil, or terrible or anything like that.

I am saying that it is a problem. And one that needs to be controlled even if it means that you don't eat in a restaurant for 2.5 years until the child has the capacity to sit politely in the restaurant.
Overall I agree. I also agree with the pp who said some mothers feel such a strong need to talk with other mothers, that they'll stay in situations where their children clearly aren't coping, just to get the fellowship.

Even if only _one child_ seems not to be coping, why don't the other mothers suggest "taking it to the park" so the lone mother doesn't have to feel left out of the fun?

Quote:

And frankly, I am really tired of reading posts that go on about people that don't have a "spirited child" not know how hard it is, not understanding, etc., etc. Any kid of any temperment is capable of having a restaurant melt-down. It's not about the kids, it's about the parenting.
Well, and I'm tired of people who don't know how hard it is, making judgments.

A week ago, my 2yo cut her finger and needed stitches. In the ER waiting room, the other children her age were sitting quietly with parents, watching tv or coloring. MY 2yo wanted to do practically nothing but run, run, run, run, run.

Of course, I understood when staff told me she couldn't do that there. But it was virtually impossible to redirect her to a quiet activity, so I put her on my hip in the sling and walked around with her. I'm glad our wait wasn't long -- if it had been I don't know how I would have coped with her increasing restlessness.

I realize everyone here would probably sympathize with me in this situation where my child was the one needing treatment, which meant we couldn't leave. But the volunteer who worked in the waiting room seemed totally lacking in understanding. While I carried my restless toddler around, this woman questioned my dh about dd's age and whether she was "always like that."

Though I've been around enough toddlers to know dd's not a complete anomaly, I couldn't help feeling this woman thought there was something wrong with my parenting. And I knew that in her job, she sees lots of toddlers, too -- so I kept wondering why she acted so shocked, like this was the _first time_ she'd witnessed such rambunctious behavior. It kind of hurt.

I realize this post is about behavior in restaurants, not emergency rooms where you have to be there -- but I just thought I'd share this as an example of how far a little understanding can go ...and how much it's missed if it's not there.


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Well, and I'm tired of people who don't know how hard it is, making judgments.

I think you are making a huge assumption that I, or anyone else, don't know EXACTLY how hard it is.

Again ...

*Not being judged:* Being the parent of a child who is acting up in public place.

*Being judged:* Being a parent wo does not stop a child who is acting up in public and causing a _dangerous situation_.


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

How about McDonalds or Burger King with a play place? Neither of my boys where able to sit still in a restaurant at age 3, consequently the only restauarants we went to were ones with play gyms in them. Some kids simply can not sit still at that age and I don't think it's anything that can be attributed to bad parenting.


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## Individuation (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 
How about McDonalds or Burger King with a play place? Neither of my boys where able to sit still in a restaurant at age 3, consequently the only restauarants we went to were ones with play gyms in them. Some kids simply can not sit still at that age and I don't think it's anything that can be attributed to bad parenting.

I agree that having a run-around kid should not be attributed to bad parenting. Bad parenting comes in when said run-around kid isn't redirected or taken elsewhere.

I don't know that much about family restaurants or "playspace" restaurants, because I have a lot of trouble with the noise and activity level. But if you can deal, something like that sounds fine... or a picnic, or something at someone's house.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

heh, personal pet peeve of mine.

Kid is doing something dangerous or disruptive to another person. Mom mildly says "Johnny, don't do that" a million times but doesn't do anything else about it. A woman I know has this approach to discipline and the result is expected - he ignores everything she says.

DH and I have a rule that we try to follow: we will give an instruction one time only - if the child heard us but we are not listened to, we intervene.

Maybe not very GD (we don't spank but we do use timeouts on occasion for serious infractions like hitting another person), but I do think children need to learn early on that certain behavior is not acceptable. And they learn that by noting what behavior gets a reaction from the parents.

The intervention may be non-punitive - distraction, removing the child, etc. or we may rephrase the request in a way to get a positive response, or it may be punitive as warrented by the behavior.

But I think that even if my child is screaming his head off, what other people want to see is the parent attempting to do something to reduce the impact on others - even if the parent isn't particularly successful.

My kids are far from angels. I often won't take them to restaurants or other public places because I find it too exhausting to be monitoring and directing their behavior the entire time - because that is what I need to do to keep them safe and welcomed.


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## psychmama (Jun 9, 2007)

Update: I saw the moms today, and we agreed that future dinner dates (with the kids) will be takeout at a park.

Re the ongoing debate: I of course understand why kids might act like that. What I did not understand at the time is why the moms, who seem like reasonable people and whose parenting is usually in line with my own, did not do more to stop them. For instance, one mom (not one of those having personal problems), got up to try to retrieve her son and came back saying, "I can't catch him." I asked if she wanted me to help, and she said no. So he continued to run around the restaurant.

After reading more and thinking about it, I think that the problem was (besides the poor choice of venue), that two of the moms were really wanting companionship to the point that they were willing to overlook some behavior that I consider unacceptable, as well as perhaps not knowing what to do once telling the kids to stop didn't work, along with maybe some attitudes about "kids being kids" without taking into consideration safety factors or how much other patrons were being disturbed.

Here's what I wish I had done: for the boy who was hitting his mom and spitting in her drink, I would like to have tried distracting him or asking his mom if she wanted to take a bathroom break for a few minutes while I watched him. For the mass running around, screaming, etc, maybe I could have said to the moms something like, "It seems like everyone is having a lot of trouble with being in the restaurant, and I'm worried that they might hurt themselves. Do you guys want to try to get stuff to go, or take them outside on the porch to cam down, or what do you think we should do?" (It was raining, so taking it to the park was not an option).

I agree that some kids are more spirited than others, but I do think that calm, consistent limits can make a difference (and spending several years in graduate school working with families with challenging kids has borne that out).


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
Just to be clear, I'm personally not offended. I like little kids! I love to see them laughing and having fun. But my heart stops when I see them running or crawling around in restaurants.

It's hard for a waitress to even see a small child because they walk with trays in front of them.

It's that "OMG ... hey parent, get your baby, she's going to get hurt!" feeling.

Interesting side-note on that: Have you worked in the food-service industry? I have observed that people who _have_ are generally more aware of this as a safety concern, and consideration to the staff, etc, than those who haven't.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *psychmama* 
Update: I saw the moms today, and we agreed that future dinner dates (with the kids) will be takeout at a park.

<snip>
After reading more and thinking about it, I think that the problem was (besides the poor choice of venue), that two of the *moms were really wanting companionship to the point that they were willing to overlook some behavior* that I consider unacceptable, as well as perhaps not knowing what to do once telling the kids to stop didn't work, along with maybe some attitudes about "kids being kids" without taking into consideration safety factors or how much other patrons were being disturbed.

I tnink that's really telling. Did you feel like they were taking advantage of the wait-staff and even the other patrons in a way? I seem to remember as a kid, the other kids that ran amok in the local pizza parlor... I wasn't unduly disturbed by it, again, _as a kid_, but it was so different than how my family was, I remember thinking. And even _then_ I was acutely aware that "Their mom isn't doing anything..." kwim? And I have seen other folks do this when in a public place like this, where they just kind of go "off the clock", does that make sense?

Quote:

Here's what I wish I had done: for the boy who was hitting his mom and spitting in her drink, I would like to have tried distracting him or asking his mom if she wanted to take a bathroom break for a few minutes while I watched him. For the mass running around, screaming, etc, maybe I could have said to the moms something like, "It seems like everyone is having a lot of trouble with being in the restaurant, and I'm worried that they might hurt themselves. Do you guys want to try to get stuff to go, or take them outside on the porch to cam down, or what do you think we should do?" (It was raining, so taking it to the park was not an option).

I agree that some kids are more spirited than others, but I do think that calm, consistent limits can make a difference (and spending several years in graduate school working with families with challenging kids has borne that out).
I like your alternatives, should you get a chance at a do-over.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
Interesting side-note on that: Have you worked in the food-service industry? I have observed that people who _have_ are generally more aware of this as a safety concern, and consideration to the staff, etc, than those who haven't.

one of the reasons I am so sensitive is that i worked in restaurants a lot. I hate cleaning up accidents and messes that are beyond normal kid messes (their name written in peanut butter and jelly, 50 packs of crackers ground into a powder and used as a play area, kids sucking down sugar packets until they throw up.). it also effects servers tips when these kids are being obnoxious in their area. and then of course there is the safety issue.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
I think you are making a huge assumption that I, or anyone else, don't know EXACTLY how hard it is.

Again ...

*Not being judged:* Being the parent of a child who is acting up in public place.

*Being judged:* Being a parent wo does not stop a child who is acting up in public and causing a _dangerous situation_.

Fair enough. I think I may have over-reacted due to my recent experience. That's really not an excuse; I'm sorry for misunderstanding some of you.


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

No problem! It's a tricky topic and we are discussing it using a tricky mode of communication. And I am sorry someone was so impatient with you when you needed care with an injuried little one.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
No problem! It's a tricky topic and we are discussing it using a tricky mode of communication. And I am sorry someone was so impatient with you when you needed care with an injuried little one.

Thanks!


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

My 3.5 yo isn't a restaurant runner. But she does find it very difficult to sit quietly in her seat for any length of time. I'm just not willing to engage in some battle of wills with her over something that doesn't mean much to me. So she spends a lot of time standing up on her chair cushion, chattering away. And we take lots of walks around the room at opportune times.

It works mainly because I have my focus on her the entire time, helping her to keep it together. If I was trying to spend the meal conversing with other adults while she found her own way, she'd definitely degenerate into some pretty problem behaviors.

That's just the level of attention that she requires to function in a formal social environment as a three year old, and to be honest, I don't think she's unusual in that respect.

It sounds to me as though there needs to be a separation between playdates for the kids and adult get togethers.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
one of the reasons I am so sensitive is that i worked in restaurants a lot. I hate cleaning up accidents and messes that are beyond normal kid messes *(their name written in peanut butter and jelly, 50 packs of crackers ground into a powder and used as a play area, kids sucking down sugar packets until they throw up.).* it also effects servers tips when these kids are being obnoxious in their area. and then of course there is the safety issue.

OMG!







That is just so... not. ok.


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## SneakyPie (Jan 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harmat* 
If I know the other child and their parent well I will say something to the child, even if mom is present. I don't have a problem with that, and usually the other mom pitches in reinforcing what I just said.

The other thing I often do is to talk to dd, when I'm actually saying something to the other people present. Like reminding dd to take her shoes off, and everyone else will do the same, ykwim? So in your case I might "remind" dd about what behaviour I expect from her before we enter the restaurant. That way you also make your expectations clear to your friends without confronting anybody.

Making clear YOUR expectations of behavior for MY children, would only make me want to let my kid run around as much as he felt like. (I have teased back, on one occasion, by saying, "Watch out or I'll tell him to eat off your plate!") Talking to the other mothers by talking to the child is very transparent. But when another parent goes ahead and speaks to my child about his behavior when I am right there - I'm not polite enough to just chime in. Every single time, I pipe up with "That's my business, not yours."

Just because a kid is not behaving up to somebody's expectations, does not mean that I don't share those expectations or have not communicated them to my child. It just means he forgot, or is highly stimulated at the moment, or frankly doesn't give a crap and does not share my expectations at the moment. I mean he's not a hellion, but when somebody with a kid who does everything right in a restaurant presumes that my kid just needs her help to get it right - yeah, I'll put a quick stop to that.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SneakyPie* 
Making clear YOUR expectations of behavior for MY children, would only make me want to let my kid run around as much as he felt like. (I have teased back, on one occasion, by saying, "Watch out or I'll tell him to eat off your plate!") Talking to the other mothers by talking to the child is very transparent. But when another parent goes ahead and speaks to my child about his behavior when I am right there - I'm not polite enough to just chime in. Every single time, I pipe up with "That's my business, not yours."

Just because a kid is not behaving up to somebody's expectations, does not mean that I don't share those expectations or have not communicated them to my child. It just means he forgot, or is highly stimulated at the moment, or frankly doesn't give a crap and does not share my expectations at the moment. I mean he's not a hellion, but when somebody with a kid who does everything right in a restaurant presumes that my kid just needs her help to get it right - yeah, I'll put a quick stop to that.

I have to say, I agree with this... I would be so irked if a grown woman had the audacity to essentially give me instructions on parenting by giving those instructions to HER child about HER behavior when her child is exhibiting GOOD behavior and it's mine who's annoying her. Weird for that child, I think, and just causes trouble between moms. I think a direct statement, an offer to help, or a question like, "What can I do to support you right now?, would be good.

In many situations, sure, it's okay for moms to help each other out, and dang, sometimes I'll bet it is a case of Mom has to use a restaurant with her hellion children, and other patrons and wait staff are going to be rolling their eyes, and it's going to be a pain and ruin our meals, But people need to use restaurants sometimes, and kids are people, and they are just not very good at it yet: being PEOPLE. Restaurants are not adults-only clubs, and I personally don't mind having to put up wtih rotten kids, and if they're really rotten I would check in with the mother for permission to go ahead and then I'd commandeer the whole gang.

VF


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *psychmama* 
Update: I saw the moms today, and we agreed that future dinner dates (with the kids) will be takeout at a park.

That's great! Glad you were able to work something out


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Truly, it's not that I'm not empathetic, I just think that in that situation it's a death spiral and you gotta pretty much cut and run. My kids don't really recover from that sort of behavior to sitting quietly and camly--esp. if the food is gone!









I agree, if things were totally out of control than sometimes you have to cut your losses and move on. I would have snagged my kids and left if it was possible to do so (as in the food was already paid for and such). Still I would hope after I did so my friends wouldn't be sitting around saying, "Gosh she's a bad parent, did you see her kids being like KIDS in a restaurant full of kids?!"


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
Interesting side-note on that: Have you worked in the food-service industry? I have observed that people who _have_ are generally more aware of this as a safety concern, and consideration to the staff, etc, than those who haven't.

Oh gosh EONS and EONS ago!









And yeah, families with kids often did leave a big mess and an even smaller tip. But that never bothered me.

It really was seeing that young woman take that full tray of hot food and drinks on herself to avoid hurting the tot that ran into her. She screamed when it poured down the front of her. It was years ago that I saw it happen and it still sticks with me.


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## bl987ue (Mar 14, 2006)

When my DS was tiny I was absolutely militant about not allowing him loose in the aisles of a restaurant, and it was because I had been a server during my high school and college years. One time I was ferrying a full tray of prime rib and steak dinners out to a table and some kid ran right under me, caught me right on the elbow of the arm holding the tray, and BAM! Eight prime rib dinners on the floor. Fortunately, the kid wasn't hit, but I lost out on a big tip because all those meals had to go back and get redone. The diners weren't happy about the delay, and I got no tip.

To this day I am very careful to treat servers nicely, leave a decent tip, and not let DS run around or make a mess.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I was a server for a few years myself, although I never had a kid run into me, thank goodness!


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bl987ue* 
One time I was ferrying a full tray of prime rib and steak dinners out to a table and some kid ran right under me, caught me right on the elbow of the arm holding the tray, and BAM! Eight prime rib dinners on the floor.

Oh man! That is incredible! Eight dinners, you must have had the arms of a weightlifter! That is really impressive. I was the worst waittress in 900 counties. I couldn't even notice if a party sat in my section, nevermind get them their food and remember drink refills, etc. People would get up and leave. Totally pathetic. It takes an incredible mindset and the grace of a dancer to do what you did. My hat's off to you.

VF


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## bl987ue (Mar 14, 2006)

That's kind of you, but really, once you have it balanced it requires no effort at all to hold up--and alas, no effort to have it land on the floor if your elbow gets hit just right. Just like a lever--splat!!!! (But I am off topic.)


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
I know the meaning of spirited but if my children misbehave in a resteraunt we leave. Resteraunts are not my private playgrounds. They are business. unless my kids can sit and behave they are simply do not go. We have only had to leave a couple times for each kid before they got the point. And when we do go it is to eat. I would never expect kids to hang out and be socially acceptable for long periods of time in a place like a resteraunt. I either get a sitter or decline the invite. thats just torture for everyone. I enjoy sitting and chatting over a cup of coffee. my children do not. and I do not enjoy the level of parenting it takes to keep them sane in that environment. So we skip it.









:


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## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

That post is what happens when you leave your computer unlocked at work.


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