# Why are you an intactivist?



## hannabrown15 (Sep 28, 2016)

What made you all aware that circumcision is an insane cultural practice? For me, I watched a show on TLC called Strange Sex when I was 18, and on the episode I watched Ron Low was on it and he was talking about foreskin restoration. Being an American female, the thought of circumcision never crossed my mind, but once I found out that men were trying to fix their irreversible procedures I wanted to learn more about why we did it. The more I learned, the more appalled I became. Now I'm the mother of a perfect intact boy. Why are you an intactivist?


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## Peachwater (Sep 28, 2016)

There are far more concerns on whether one is circumcised or not. It is the parent's choice unfortunately for the child. Inform them if you must.


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## hannabrown15 (Sep 28, 2016)

Your comment literally has nothing to do it has what I asked. This topic is very important to men who wish they did not have their genital autonomy violated, so take your insensitive comment elsewhere.


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## hannabrown15 (Sep 28, 2016)

*with not it has


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Peachwater said:


> There are far more concerns on whether one is circumcised or not. It is the parent's choice unfortunately for the child. Inform them if you must.


This is one choice that a parent should NOT have. They are not the one's who have to live with the consequences. Circumcision does not cure anything. It does not fix anything. It does not enhance the victim's life in any way. In fact there are lifelong physiological and psychological issues that result from the amputation of a foreskin. Not the least of which is the loss of 75% of the penile nerves.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

hannabrown15 said:


> What made you all aware that circumcision is an insane cultural practice?


Congratulations on leaving your son whole.

I am a guy who was circumcised as a infant. It has always been an huge issue for me - well, since the age of six when I realized what had been done to me. I was born before the advent of the internet, so my parents had no access to information except whatever BS they heard from family and doctors, so I can't really blame them, but I do blame a money hungry medical system. Having said that, I do wish my parents had exercised a bit more common sense and realized that nature does not make mistakes.

It feels like I was subjected to such a personal violation, and I find participating on these boards, helping prospective parents to find the information that they need to keep their sons whole, to be quite therapeutic.

Like you , I find the notion of performing cosmetic surgery on the genitalia of a brand new baby boy to be nothing short of bizarre. I find it amazing that so many North American parents don't see it that way too. Do they think their son was born defective and needs immediate surgery to fix him??


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

What made me an intactivist? I grew up as a boy in America, thats what made me an intactivist. Every single man should feel the same kind of shame and anger at their culture, about if not what was directly done to them, or other males they know, but of how their cultures devalues the natural male form, diminishes the basic human rights over the only thing we ever truly own, that we only have one of- our body. 

How ANYONE can think they have the right to take that from another human, much less a child while maintaining ownership over their own, enrages me like nothing else. 

To be male is to be an intactivist. The difference is those who are still submerged in the culture that cut them, or those around them. It took years to fully separate that culture from myself. But every man in America has that moment when they are a boy, and they learn that part of their body was cut off for no reason. There is always a sense of confusion, betrayal, and a bit of anger there. Its a key moment because every boy makes a choice to either ignore that pain and become strongly in support of infant circ, or to embrace it and understand what it all meant (however tentatively). If I had to mark a moment, that was when I first started recognizing what I had lost, but also what my culture didn't value. I was ready to move through the pain that I have to face.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

26 years ago I opened a parenting magazine in a newsagent to a story about should or should you not circumcise your son and went O_O I read in abject horror that taking up knives to baby boys penises was a common practice in the US and was horrified since I thought it was only Jews that did that to boys and places like Iraqi that did so to girls. The US was supposed to be a modern country. Learning that the US mutilates boys was a shocker. No one has the right to surgically alter a child's body just because they are a parent, not unless that child needs urgent medical attention. No doubt most people in the US think of it as normal, to those of us outside the US we think its insane and that Americans who do so are brain washed.

Peachwater, no parent should have the right to cut a childs body for no medical need. They do not own the child, the child owns his own body. If parents have that right over son's they should logically also have that right over daughters; do you agree with female circumcision of the mild form? Why or why not?


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

I was 9 and 14 yrs old when my brothers were born and my mom told me that Jewish families cut off that part of the baby boy on the 8th day. 

My dad and brothers are intact.

When I began to baby sit at age 13 for $, I noticed that every single baby boy I changed diapers on was circumcised and they were not Jewish. That is when I realized the US culture had a problem with foreskins. Years later, Dr Mendelsohn decried the use of routine circumcision on little boys in the US. I did more research and learned more about the practice.


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## TheBugsMomma (Mar 24, 2015)

I grew up with a very pro circ family. I remember hearing things all through my childhood like "ew, I can't believe they didn't circ their son" or "it's just a flap of skin that gets infected" and "I was so sad to send T (my little brother) to have it done, I couldn't watch." Which I always thought was strange if you couldn't watch because it was so terrible why do it. It must just be very important. I never came in contact with an intact penis until my cousin and my very best friend, although 8 years older than me told me they weren't planning on circ-ing their baby, because his dad wasn't and it's really not necessary. Huh I thought. Well my aunts and mom made fun of her and talked about how terrible not too even saying up until he was 3 years old that they needed to hurry up and do it. Well having grown up hearing how terribly ugly uncut penises are I was a little afraid of what I would find the first time I changed his diaper. But go figure it wasn't really ugly at all, it was just a baby penis. Lol that's when I started questioning it. I live in Northern California and have changed quite a few diapers through my babysitting and nanny days and learned so much from all the boy moms. (Majority are intact here) and I have no idea why you would cut a boy now. It's more work, more risk, and only 20% or something are here so it's not to fit in. When my dd was born my mom wanted me to "fix" her ears because they stick out. I was so offended when she kept suggesting this, she's perfect and I love her ears. The only way to get her to drop it was to tell her if she hates them when she's 18 I'll pay for the surgery myself and support her decision 100%. I know if this baby is a boy we will have the same argument again and it will be the same offer to my son, if you hate your natural parts I will pay to fix it when your 18. But I'm pretty sure that my kids will be happy I left them alone! Lol the bottom line is it's not my decision because they aren't my ears and it's not my penis and changing your child's appearance to make them "prettier" is just WRONG.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Don't allow her to make comments around your son, or even to change his nappy/diaper. This is how some intact males in the US grow up hating that they are intact from toxic people around them. Teach him the functions of the foreskin and to value what he has.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

joandsarah77 said:


> Don't allow her to make comments around your son, or even to change his nappy/diaper. This is how some intact males in the US grow up hating that they are intact from toxic people around them. Teach him the functions of the foreskin and to value what he has.


Most men in America learn to hate their intact penis in gym class. It is reinforced by peers and school officials doing nothing about the taunting.

I learned this from my brothers who are intact and was my Father.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

I have heard vastly different stories on that, from your side which says taunting is common to other intact American guys I know who said they never got teased and it would have been the other guys who got teased for taking so much interest in their junk, so I don't think anything is guaranteed.


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## TheBugsMomma (Mar 24, 2015)

Oh she definitely won't be changing diapers. She's never changed my dd who is now potty trained. She lives 2 states away and only visits about 4 days total a year. Usually spread out. Lol also we cloth diaper and I doubt she would even want to mess with that. Ha and were 99.9% going to homeschool so no locker worries either. My main concern is her questioning my child's appearance while I'm on my new momma high. It's pretty much going to happen, but I want to sound like the educated one when I speak my peace. But we live and are closer to dh side of the family who are pretty much all for natural boys except my SILs who feel like it is parents decision. I think my mil is the only one who ever changed dd once except dh. I would be even more protective with a boy, just in case.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

applejuice said:


> Most men in America learn to hate their intact penis in gym class. It is reinforced by peers and school officials doing nothing about the taunting.
> 
> I learned this from my brothers who are intact and was my Father.


Were your brothers and father teased about their intact status?

I find the whole concept of that kind of teasing weird. As you have read many times, I spent all 12 years of grade school in boys boarding schools with totally open communal shower room and dorms - everyone saw everyone's junk many times a day. I never once witnessed any teasing based on circumcision status. This makes me wonder if the reason it happens in the U.S. isn't because of exposure to negative and disparaging comments made by adults.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Sorry, but it is true. My brothers were teased and called _anteaters_ by their classmates. My mother had many conferences with the administration about it. Not everyone goes to a progressive boarding school for 12 yrs as you did.

My Father and his brothers grew up on a farm in the pre-Depression era and were not subjected to this indignity.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

My son is 20 and intact. He has had zero issues with being whole.


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## BirthFree (Nov 2, 2005)

applejuice said:


> Most men in America learn to hate their intact penis in gym class. It is reinforced by peers and school officials doing nothing about the taunting.
> 
> I learned this from my brothers who are intact and was my Father.


That's generalizing one experience to "most men". I'm not sure that can be applied that way on this subject. It is also now over 50% who remain intact (the stats when my teenager was born was 40%).


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

applejuice said:


> Sorry, but it is true. My brothers were teased and called _anteaters_ by their classmates. My mother had many conferences with the administration about it. Not everyone goes to a progressive boarding school for 12 yrs as you did.
> 
> My Father and his brothers grew up on a farm in the pre-Depression era and were not subjected to this indignity.


It may have been true for them perhaps due to where they lived, but it is not true for all, and I don't think saying most is true either. The two guys I know did not go to some boarding school. Anyway this is 10-20 years ago and things have changed, these days some states are as low as 20% so intact would be the norm there.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

> My son is 20 and intact. He has had zero issues with being whole.


 Good for him.

I am NOT generalizing, I am merely sharing my own experience.

My brothers are 53 and 48 now. Men this age made decisions for their sons in the past 10-20 years. I babysat most of their contemporaries in the 60-70s and they were all circumcised. Sorry if my experience is too old for your stats, but it is my experience nonetheless. Do not de-legitimize my reality. The title of this post is _Why Are You Intactivist_, and I am sharing mine.

My brothers were in jr hi and sr hi school in the suburbs in the 70-80s.

These are the ages of fathers now making decisions for their sons.

My own nephews and grandsons are intact.

The influx of immigrants in the last 30 yrs may have shifted the numbers of intact men.


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## BirthFree (Nov 2, 2005)

Well you said "most men" and that's definitely generalizing.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

applejuice said:


> Sorry, but it is true. My brothers were teased and called _anteaters_ by their classmates. My mother had many conferences with the administration about it. Not everyone goes to a progressive boarding school for 12 yrs as you did.
> 
> My Father and his brothers grew up on a farm in the pre-Depression era and were not subjected to this indignity.


Well, the boarding school that I went to was hardly progressive as I grew up on an isolated farm in Africa and boarding school was the only option for education. This was in the '50s and 60's.

I can only surmise that your brothers were subjected to teasing because their tormentors had heard and listened to disparaging comments made by their parents about intact males. None of my contemporaries appeared to have any kind of bias in the least. It was just accepted that there were two kinds of penis!


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

applejuice said:


> Good for him.
> 
> I am NOT generalizing, I am merely sharing my own experience.
> 
> ...


I am so happy to hear that your nephews and grandsons are intact. This illustrates a high degree of common sense and critical thought within your family.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

*Well*

I was circumcised as an infant. Now I am mostly restored. I know the difference in sexual feeling and function, plus I have taken the time to research the subject. these things have made me an activist.

Regards


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## bugmenot (May 29, 2005)

joandsarah77 said:


> I have heard vastly different stories on that, from your side which says taunting is common to other intact American guys I know who said they never got teased and it would have been the other guys who got teased for taking so much interest in their junk, so I don't think anything is guaranteed.


The "locker room argument" is changing. In the 60s or 70s, it may have been common for an intact guy to be teased...but into the 90s (and i'm sure even past that), it is more like a "eww why are you looking down there?" mindset.


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## AllTomorrowsParties (Apr 28, 2015)

Watched PBS documentary in 1995 and again while pregnant with first child in 2012/2013. Also read articles on female genital mutilation while taking an African development course in college. I can't understand why people think curcumcision and FGM are two different things or why anyone would condone either one. It's repulsive. I have shared links of the documentary with friends and family who wouldn't watch it but insisted circumcision was more hygienic and that I should do my homework.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

AllTomorrowsParties said:


> Watched PBS documentary in 1995 and again while pregnant with first child in 2012/2013. Also read articles on female genital mutilation while taking an African development course in college. I can't understand why people think curcumcision and FGM are two different things or why anyone would condone either one. It's repulsive. I have shared links of the documentary with friends and family who wouldn't watch it but insisted circumcision was more hygienic and that I should do my homework.


Its healing to hear a woman say male and female circumcision is comparable. I have had too many discussions with woman and girls who were offended I would even dare compare the two. Circumcision is an act of subjugation. Anyone who claims to be a feminist, or stands even just for woman rights cannot support or practice circumcision. As the support for one entirely betrays the support for the other.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Exactly. people also want to ignore the fact that the mildest form of female circumcision is only a pin prick and far less invasive then a US new born male circumcision. The AAP tried to bring it back only a few years ago and was shot down. So a pin prick on a girl is jail time but a boy can have the whole foreskin sliced off with approval. Makes no sense to me. The other thing that isn't acknowledged is that in some countries boys are also done in filthy conditions. People seem to have this mind set. girls-filth-barbarism, while boys is clean-hospital. When these are mentioned I never get a reply.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I never thought about it until I was 20 and started a LTR with an intact man. That changed it for me.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

perspective said:


> Its healing to hear a woman say male and female circumcision is comparable. I have had too many discussions with woman and girls who were offended I would even dare compare the two. Circumcision is an act of subjugation. Anyone who claims to be a feminist, or stands even just for woman rights cannot support or practice circumcision. As the support for one entirely betrays the support for the other.


I've had so many arguments with other women claiming they aren't the same. It's exasperating.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Arduinna said:


> I've had so many arguments with other women claiming they aren't the same. It's exasperating.


This seems to be a very common refrain, when discussing MGM and FGM. I can only attribute it to the notion that a large percentage of the population is ignorant of the fact that there are four separate classifications of FGM and they automatically assume that it involves both clitoridectomy and infibulation. In reality, as we know, many cases of FGM are more benign than MGM.

However, in the final analysis, genital cutting is genital cutting, and the degree is immaterial. It is all reprehensible.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

hakunangovi said:


> However, in the final analysis, genital cutting is genital cutting, and the degree is immaterial. It is all reprehensible.


Its funny, westerners denounce FGM for some many reasons, but like you say its all reprehensible but for reasons never brought up Americas. The act of forcibly mutilating another human is dehumanizing, it feels like a tiny part of you is taken away, and sometimes the easiest way to feeling normal again is forgetting what being "whole" feels like. Pretending what you have become is whats normal.

These acts, all these acts be they performed on a scared African girl being held down in the bush by her grandmother, by a nervous boy in the Philippines who may feel horrified by believes this is the only way to manhood, or the unknowing baby in America who never even had a chance to process what is about to happen- these are all equally reprehensible because it deprives all of them of a tiny bit of their humanity and subjugates all of them to the culture that did this to them.

We can all still live somewhat happy lives with less sexual functionality, but what we cannot live without is the FULL sense of our humanity. If people do not understand this as the fundamental crime of forced genital modification, then they don't even have a minimal understanding on the subject.


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## Pulsar (Jun 28, 2017)

About teasing of intact guys, I'll relate two stories that indicate to me that it doesn't need to be a problem.

The circ rate at the time and place I grew up was 90% or more. Foreskins were pretty rare. At high school PE we were required to dress-out and shower afterwards. It's first day of PE and most guys are a bit modest with towels wrapped around them heading to and from the shower room and hiding behind their locker doors when they could. But not Joe. He is strutting down the aisle to the showers with his towel over his shoulder and he is "different." Well, there always seems to be one guy in any group that just doesn't understand proper male comportment. He blurts out, "My gawd Joe, what happened to your dick!?" But for the sound of the showers, the room falls silent. Without breaking stride, Joe replies "Absolutely nothing you half-cocked knob." I suspect most guys had no clue what Joe was really saying though a few guys clutched their towels tighter.

The same day on the way home from school on the bus, there are two guys who were in a different PE period from mine. One says to the other, "I don't want you to think I'm some kind of gazer, but did you notice (some name)? What's up with that guy's cock?" The second replied, "Oh, he hasn't been circumcised." First questions, "What's that?" Second replies, "That's when they cut the skin off the head of your dick. They usually do it when you're a baby so you don't remember it." First comes back, "You mean they cut part of our dicks off when we were born???" Second says, "Yep." The first guy was a bit shaken for a few seconds but then asks, "Isn't that going to hurt like hell when he gets his done?" Well, the fellow sitting in front of me turns around and says, "They did that to my brother but they didn't get me. They ain't NEVER going to do that to me." A very emphatic never. End of discussion. Hard to tell what the two cut guys felt about that. At the very least it probably made them understand that circumcision isn't an inevitable necessity. 

My experience that day tells me several things. The two intact guys knew the score ahead of time and were very proud of their state and would never change it. Most circumcised guys, at least at age 14, don't have a clue what was done to them. When they do find out, they are a bit upset, but they quickly assume that's the way it ought to be or will be. This was confirmed again when I went to college and I was present when a clueless 18 year old learned the truth. 

There was never any teasing done, unless you consider Joe's response to be teasing. It was a bit mean, but not really teasing because those present really didn't understand what he was saying. In both cases, an intact guy responded to the circumcised ignorance. Knowledge is power. Intact guys need to know early what the score is in case they should find themselves in a minority position--still quite common today where I grew up. Circumcised guys will probably just put it out of their minds and press on like they always have--easy to do when you're part of a super majority.

I consider myself an intactivist because the tide is changing. I'm convinced that no circumcised guy really likes the idea when he first finds out what was done to him. But, being part of a super majority makes it easy to accept it and even convince himself he really likes it. Conformity is good for the psyche. At what point does the acceptance begin to falter? If even a quarter of the guys in the locker room were intact, would cut guys be as accepting of their state? With majority intact at some places now, how are the circumcised guys going to feel? Is early education the answer? How do you convince a boy that having part of his penis cut off was a good thing? The common reasons for doing it, to be like daddy, cleanliness or mommy thinks it's prettier, will fail to convince most cut guys that their scar is necessary. Educating a boy of the opposite, that having all of your penis is a good thing, seems to be very effective. Hiding the truth from the circumcised seems to be the answer. Keep the truth from him for as long as possible so that he gets comfortable with what he has. The slides in health class never show foreskins. We never talk about it in polite company, especially if young boys are around. We don't dress out and shower after PE anymore. We circumcise at birth because deep down inside we know he would NEVER choose it for himself. There seems to be a growing number of men who resent their circumcisions, or at least will admit it. As circ rates plummet, the resentment is likely to become epidemic. Let's try to save as many men as possible from that.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Pulsar, I like what you wrote and I think you are right on with your observations.

I spent my entire grade school education in boys boarding schools, starting at age 6. All the schools had totally open, communal shower rooms - everyone saw everyone. About 2/3 were circumcised and 1/3 intact. I still remember the first day of school when our dorm of some 20 kids were herded into the shower room for our evening bath. It was a room with about six tubs which we doubled up in. It was then that I realized that my penis did not match that of many of the other kids and it was obvious that I was missing something. It was quite a shock. I do not recall one single instance of teasing - it was just accepted that there were two versions of penis.

As you pointed out, circumcision and penises in general are not talked about very often. I have never met an intact guy who wishes that he were not. I know several circumcised guys who are most unhappy that they were mutilated, including myself and one of my two brothers. Curiously, the other could not care less. One of my friends is circumcised but his older brother and Dad are intact. He told me that his mother apologized to him many times, and explained that when he was born the doctor persuaded her to allow it. He holds a lot of resentment toward that doctor. I am much the same, in that I do not blame my parents. They had no access to information except whatever BS they heard from doctors and relatives. However, if the doctor had just told my Mom "This is not necessary, you know", it would not have happened.

As more circumcised men realize what has been done to them and learn of the form, function and value of a foreskin, the more resentment will surface. Hopefully, they will be willing to talk about it and more parents will choose to leave their sons intact. The custom will decline due to parental knowledge and social pressure, NOT from the medical community (in general).


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## Foregen (Jun 19, 2017)

Arduinna said:


> I've had so many arguments with other women claiming they aren't the same. It's exasperating.


Here is an interesting article comparing female and male genital cutting. It's a very interesting article and worth reading. It might give you some new ideas and arguments for future discussions.

blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2014/02/female-genital-mutilation-and-male-circumcision-time-to-confront-the-double-standard/

Best,
Foregen


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## Foregen (Jun 19, 2017)

Foregen recognises the unique properties and tissues that are lost in circumcision. That is why we using regenerative medicine and stem cells to regenerate the entire male foreskin for those men that were circumcised.


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