# My child has no respect for me



## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

She loves me of course, but she has no respect for my requests to cooperate. She's 3 years old, very bright, very spirited. When I ask her to do something or not to do something, I take the time to explain why, and I ask her nicely. She will either ignore me and do it again, or will say "no" and do it again. It can be as simple as "Please get a new pair of undies on" to "Please don't throw that around your baby sister." She could care less about my requests. I don't feel she respects me at all. I even tell her, "Mommy's getting angry and sad because you are not doing xyz." and she will come and say "sorry mommy" and then do it again anyway.

Two examples: She gets swim lessons once a week. I can't go in with her because of my baby, so she is part of a group. She constantly wonders into the deep end of the pool and she can't swim that well and it makes me nervous. The swim teacher asks her over and over to stay in the shallow area. There are about 6 kids in the class so they will play in the shallow area while the teacher works with one of them at a time. She will sneak past his turned back into the deep end. I told her several days in advance, and several times over, that if she does not stay in the shallow area we will go home. I give her lots of room to be spirited but this is a safety issue and she's being disobedient. It goes beyond a short attention span. She knows exactly what she's doing.

Today she again did her thing. The teacher warned her. She did it again. The teacher made her sti on the steps for a time out and I reminded her that we would go home if she went to the deep end. She did it again, and the swim teacher once again reminded her to stay by the other kids as he carried her back to that end of the pool and she looked at him and said NO! So at that point she was removed from the pool screaming bloody murder and sat in a chair where she continued to scream. I asked her to put her shoes on and that was a huge struggle. I tried to help her do it and she threw a shoe in response, then got up and ran around the perimeter of the pool with me trying to catch her with the baby in the front pack getting the thrill of her life. She stopped fully halfway around the pool and I did talk her into getting her shoes on, but then it was another struggle with screaming and kicking to get her out the door and to the car.

We had a similar incident at the butterfly walkthrough yesterday. I explained that she had to touch them gently, took her hand and showed her how, praised her. Turned around and she was holding one by one wing and the poor thing was fluttering. I asked her to let it go and she did, I explained that it hurt the butterfly and if she did it again we were going out of the butterfly garden. Reminded her to touch them nicely (with an open hand so they could crawl on it). Several times she went to pick them up by their wings but would look back and see me watching and stop. I turned my back for a minute and there she was holding one by its wing again! I took her hand firmly and said we were leaving. She kicked and screamed and caused quite a scene all the way out of the botanical gardens.

I don't even want to go places with her anymore. I try to do things that she will enjoy and she turns it into a very stressful thing. The other kids her age were listening to their parents and cooperating. Why can't she??? Is it me? Is it just the way she's wired?

She gets LOTS of positive attention at home when the baby's sleeping or playing. She gets praised and made to feel good about herself. She will often talk about it later, what she did wrong, with no remorse or regret at all.

Darshani


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Yes, it IS the way she is wired. You have to embrace her this way. Fully. Then you will be less stressed.
Its hard for you right now cuz you have a new baby. Life is kinda upside down for her and I think its to be expected for her to act out a bit. Thing is right now your tired and life is different with two kids.

I have no other advice for you as I am in th emiddle of a huge challenge as well with my very spirited 3.5 DD, but I do want to suggest taking a peek at the Special Needs Forum at a thread by China White. I was







ALOT in that thread!


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

oh Darshani







I honestly truly believe that this is a function of being 3 years old. I could have written that same kind of post when ds was 3. We still have those days, although they are much fewer and further between now. I think bright kids think faster than their bodies can respond and they get themselves into situations that end up no-win, kwim? I think it's about constancy as a parent--that's soooo hard to do (and I did it miserably) when your child is acting in these ways and you see the other kids acting totally differently. Now, having come out on the other side of it, I make sure I say something that hopefully sounds loving and reassuring to moms having a hard time with their kiddos, because it meant so much to me when ds was 3. They are at a stage where they want to be independent, and they know just enough to jump into the deep end of the pool (pun intended and not, simultaneously), but not how to swim out of it adequately. I think you're doing the right thing by removing her when she does this. She will get it eventually. Try to get yourself some time too during this period, to recharge and refresh and get some new energy into being with her.







I don't think I gave you any good pointers to use, but hopefully commiseration is some comfort too. You are not alone in this.


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## sunbaby (Sep 30, 2002)

i dont know that i have any tremendously helpful advice, just wanted to let you know that this is right where dd was up until a week ago. i seriously was rethinking all the times i have felt so glad that she is such a strong willed little girl, and wondering if perhaps i had given birth to the bad seed. 'too big for her britches' i was calling it. exactly the kind of stulff you described. i started to feel that i would better off giving her no instruction at all, because no matter what i said, or how positively i phrased it, she was hell bent on doing the opposite of what i asked, and was also behaving with no fear in dangerous situations. none.

so i consulted with her preschool teacher about this because i was feeling very distressed and in need of advice from someone who knows her. and her teacher said it is actually very developmentally appropriate for a child around 3 and a half years of age to go through this. she said keep chosing your battles wisely, but to just follow through on consequences in issues such as safety. sounds like you know that. she also advised me to keep dd home as much as possible. sometimes that is helpful for a child going through this stage, to just be in the more contained, predictable home environment. that definately helped.

but you know what the biggest catalyst for change was? when dd fell out of a tree. she got a pretty bad concussion, wich resulted in lots of sleeping and throwing up, and a trip to the emergency room. it was very scary, and nothing i would ever have wished for her, but she has listened much better since then. i think because she suddenly realized that she COULD actually be hurt, and that mom actually has reasons for the instructions she gives. no lecture was needed. dd just changed. fortunately, it didnt scare her enough to keep her out of the tree, she just climbs more carefully now. of course, i hope the solution you find doesnt include a trip to the emergency room.


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## Nanner (Apr 12, 2002)

I posted over on The Childhood Years about how 3 is a tough age. My dd is 3.5 and she was a "high-maintenance" baby and toddler. She really still is, but I think most 3 yr olds are! However, she most likely would not do what you described, at least not more than once b/c, quite frankly, she gets only one chance when it comes to safety of others (insects included- we have tons of pets from frogs to a horse for her to learn on- and my roommate has a dd who is almost 3-they moved in a few mths ago- lots of practice on not hurting/bothering others with them here!!), or safety of herself. Now, I do not have a newborn!!!! So, I am also quite sure I would be less into provoking a power-struggle in public with a little one in tow!
I don;t have all the answers, but let me tell you, I know an almost 3 yr old who can be either super-sweet and amazingly cooperative (beyond her years!), or a true monster. Some of the monster side is normal, but she is also placated very much when she screams and I think less of her "monster" side is personailty and more is parenting.
So, I say that if you are truly consistent (the large majority of the time), and she still pushes like this, then it may be personality. If you waver (or have a history of waivering), then it could be (at least partially) parent-made. Be very consistent. I don't think allowing her to disobey the swim coach at this age in such a really scary safety way is at all appropriate. Maybe warn her ahead of time ( I am sure you do this!) that she gets only 1 chance, or you could start with 2 chances, and then you are outta there asap- no shoes if she won't put them on. If you are worried about hurt feet on the way out, bring a stroller. From the sound of your post she was not walking willingly anyway. At the car you could take more time for her to get in her carseat, since you are out of the pool area and in a contained area. With the butterflies, tell her ahead of time how to handle them, if she grabs a wing, one warning and then home (maybe just out of butterfly area, I am not sure where this butterfly area is- a zoo?) My dd actually "gets by" with a lot- she runs outside shoeless, jumps on the couch, gets a lot of attention from me and is allowed a lot of access to things around the house- and I do not demand she is "perfect" when we are out- as in her jumping down the aisle of Wal-Mart is fine with me, as long as she stays close and does not bump into things/people. But, if I say something definitevly, it happens. Screaming or not-preferably not, and I try the nice way first, but not over and over, once is usually all the talking/warning and all of that she gets, and then I pick her up and move her or whatever is appropriate and talk more later.
One example I have is from about a month ago when we were in a thrift store and I told her she could get this game she really liked. She asked if she could open it in the car and I told her no, too many pieces (in a more 3 yr old appropriate explanation), she started to whine and I told her I could open the box for her to look at it briefly in the car, and when we got home we could play it together. She was near-tantrum and I told her again the reason we could not open it in the car and if she chose to throw a fit (again, my explanation was more geared towards a 3 yr old), I would put the game back and we would go to the car to wait for our friends to finish shopping (we rode together). She laid down in the floor and we left, her screaming bloody murder and kicking on the way out. This is not the first time she has done that and I doubt if it will be the last, but overall she is very well-behaved, and not b/c of threats but b/c of 2 reasons- the first is she wants to please me and/or do the right thing, and the 2nd is she knows I tell her the truth, whether it is about the facts of life or what the (logical) consequence will be for not listening. Generally, if I say it, I do it, and she knows this without a doubt.
I have read your posts for a long time on here and another website before that, and I think you seem like a great, educated Mama. So, no flames intended.
At the same time, I believe in GD but not if a child is harming/disrupting (beyond minor childish behavior) other living things. I also think "obedience" is very important, at least in the sense a child should basically respect what Mom says, even if they question it or have their moments of just not cooperating. And, one last thing, I impress heavily that dd is to be on even better behavior for other adults than for me (I don't say it that way exactly!)- and I mean this in the case of reasonable, caring adults that I trust. This is really something my Mom was tough on us about, though she was pretty GD and did not have a bunch of rules for us at home, etc.
So, now that I wrote a book! Good luck, 3 is not an easy age, IMO, not all bad, but not easy either. It seems like the older they get the more brain-power it takes to keep them cooperating and happy!
Sara


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## China white (Mar 29, 2004)

Boy, do I hear you! This situation sounds soooo familiar to me, and although my son is almost 9, I'm sorry to say we are still going through it. I believe my son is suffering from a combination of vaccine damage and Oppositional-Defiant Disorder (ODD), which is pretty self-explanatory. *Every* single thing I ask him to do, he challenges me on, from "it's time for dinner" to "Good morning, son, how are you?" We maybe have 2-3 positive encounters all day long, if we're lucky







.

For me, it helps to have a "label", so to speak, because people (myself included) can better understand my son's particular challenges, and may not expect as much from him behaviorally as other children his age. I do not let this label limit him, or define him, but rather help me to embrace him for who he is, and what he has to offer. If I can remember this during "hot moments", I am much more likely to "disipline gently". THIS is where I need help - the amount of times I lose it far out-weigh the times I handle things correctly







.

Dar, please don't think that I'm comparing your daughter 's behavior to my son's to convince you she has a disorder of some type - definately not my intent. But I remember thinking to myself
"where did I go wrong?", when in actuality, my son had other issues going on I was unaware of.

Once again, I'm sorry I cannot offer you any concrete advice, but just know that there are others out there going through the same hardships, and sometimes just talking things over with someone who can relate is the best medicine.

China white

(incidentally, do you really want to take advice from someone whose user name is a shooter?!)


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## tinaq (Aug 26, 2002)

Darshani,

I don't really have that much advice, but I do have lots of







from a Mama who's going through a lot of the same thing w/ my almost-3-yo ds. The advice from Sunbaby was very reassuring- that this is developmental. I know some of the most frustrating part can be when they're behaving appropriately when you're watching, then when you look away (or someone else looks away), it's another story. I really want to teach my ds to be self-disciplined (& maybe that's asking too much from a 3 yo), but it can get discouraging when they exhibit behavior like what you've described. It does sound like you're on the right track, Mama. Sometimes my mantra has to be "this too will pass" and I stop when I'm really upset & think of the things that *HAVE* passed that I thought would be there forever. In the meantime, sometimes it's a minute by minute thing. Hang in there, Mama!

Tina


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Hi Darshani!

Just wanted to give support and say what everyone else is saying......but also to say that I think your method of leaving when you said if you do this, this will happen......is right on. Even though it resulted in a huge chase and a big scene.......your consistancy is what she will eventually count on. Its a phase that will pass and if she knows you wont back down, soon she will know you really mean what you say and there will be a reasonable consequence.

((((HUGS)))))


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Hi Darshani -- the couple of months after my 2nd child was born were the hardest for my older son (then 3.5 yo) and his behavior was at its worst during that phase. It lasted maybe 6 months or so. It was *really* hard but it passed.

Spending lots of time at home sounds like a good idea to me!

I have to agree with everyone who is saying that consistancy will pay off. It will -- eventually. And this is just me - but I actually agree with the poster who suggested only 1 chance. She doesn't needed a 2nd chance in most of these situations. You've told her ahead of time what is expected, she has been in these situations before, she knows the rules -- if she breaks the rules than you should put her in the stroller and leave. Thats it. Reassure her that she will have another chance in a few days or whenever. Empathize with her anger and dissapointment, but be firm and consistant. It might seem harsh, I guess, and I understand if you prefer to keep on giving a 2nd chance. But I guess for something safety related that is an ongoing issue -- I just wouldn't mess around. But thats just me.

I hope you are finding a way to get adequate relief from time to time. You certainly have a lot on your plate!


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Thanks you so much mamas, for making me feel better. I always know that if I need to have some support I can come here.







I'm grateful for your anecdotes and suggestions. Looks like I'm doing the right thing.

Dd's being very, very cooperative today so maybe it sank in that I will carry through with the consequences if she makes the wrong choices. Usually after one of these incidents she'll be great for a few days, even a week if we are lucky, then back to her old tricks. It's just the issues that change.

I'm glad to know that it's normal 3 year old behavior. Abi is way out there on the spectrum so while one child might put up a small fight, Abi puts up a huge one. I know she's also dealing with a big change in her life with the baby, and dh is not as consistent with disciplining her as I am. He realizes this and is working on it.

Something else that made me feel better was that the father of a boy who was also misbehaving followed my cue and removed his son from the pool kicking and screaming. The preschool teacher who was standing by (dd gets swim lessons as part of her preschool program) fully supported me and offered to help me a couple times. I just felt I needed to work through it on my own and learn to handle this, but was grateful for her support.

I had no idea that the 3's were going to be so hard. I thought the "terrible twos" were bad. Some things are easier, like she's able to communicate her needs to me, but she's so darned stubborn and defiant at times. I guess I have to let go of some of my expectations of her personality and accept who she is. I see a lot of my own childhood in her, the way she is so defiant. But I did eventually settle down and hopefully so will she.

China White, hugs to you. You must be so sad and frustrated at times with your son's behavior. I read your thread in the Special Needs forum and it's good that your ped is working with you. Hope you get some tools to cope soon. It's too early with Abi to tell if she's anything beyond just a very spirited little girl but time will tell.

Darshani


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

It sounds to me as if you are doing all the right things,. although I would cut down on too much negotiation and explanation and 'chances.' Three year olds only 'get' so much explanation, then I think you need to take action. I try to keep it simple with dd (also three and a half.)

For example, today she started drawing on the table with her markers. She was copying her little sister and giggling as she did it. I told her if she did that, the pens would go away for the rest of the day. She did it again. I took the pens. She cried, pleaded, swore she'd never do it again, blah blah. A few minutes later, she went off to play and it was forgotten. The pens will come out again tomorrow.

I watch other mums give more discussion time to this sort of thing than I do, but I wonder if they get any better results. It is all to do with testing boundaries and seeing if you will be consistent. I am gentle, but I try to stick to what I say and follow through. Sometimes I just know taht she' ll have to be removed from the pool or taken home from the park or whatever, and prepare myself mentally to do it after just one warning. We have, as yet, not had any repetitions of poor behaviour in any one situation, it's like the individual lesson is learned each time. It sounds to me that you need to brace yourself to do this, and mentally prepare for it. Somehow, if you anticipate it, it doesnt seem so frustrating. I feel as if I'm play-acting half the time (often just trying not to laugh) but it has to be clear-cut and direct at this age. Nothing subtle works.

Good luck! HTH.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Maybe she is not ready for swimming lessons? Or maybe if she has them, they should be one-on-one so she can get adequate supervision. I would not feel safe if my dd repeatedly disobeyed safety rules when the teacher had a lot of other kids to watch. There is always time to learn to swim later.

I've found it necessary to be housebound a lot. So many moms say "What do you expect me to do, stay home all the time?" That's just what I've decided to do, until dd can be more open to people trying to reason with her and not so frustrated all the time. I haven't taken her to the grocery store in over a year. I do take her to parks, but we go home if she can't behave reasonably. She has a backyard to play in, so it's not like she's horribly deprived if we don't go anywhere.

She's 27 mos. I've actually been looking forward to the 3's!







We'll see, though.


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## MaWhit (Jan 5, 2002)

You sound like a loving and gentle mom, so please take my post in the kind spirit in which it is intended. I'm about you pick your post apart from an objective point-of-view, because those are the kinds of posts that have been most helpful to me in the past. I hope you get something from it, too.









Quote:

When I ask her to do something or not to do something, I take the time to explain why, and I ask her nicely. She will either ignore me and do it again, or will say "no" and do it again.
Don't ask or request unless you are willing to accept "no" for an answer. Just tell her what you expect and then respond as though she has already complied. "Ok, DD, now go choose a pair of shorts from your drawer. Great, thanks! Soon we'll be able to go outside!"

Quote:

She constantly wonders into the deep end of the pool and she can't swim that well and it makes me nervous. The swim teacher asks her over and over to stay in the shallow area....I told her...several times over, that if she does not stay in the shallow area we will go home. ...Today she again did her thing. The teacher warned her. She did it again. The teacher made her sti on the steps for a time out and I reminded her that we would go home if she went to the deep end. She did it again, and the swim teacher once again reminded her to stay by the other kids as he carried her back to that end of the pool and she looked at him and said NO! So at that point she was removed from the pool screaming bloody murder and sat in a chair where she continued to scream. I asked her to put her shoes on and that was a huge struggle. I tried to help her do it and she threw a shoe in response, then got up and ran around the perimeter of the pool with me trying to catch her with the baby in the front pack getting the thrill of her life. She stopped fully halfway around the pool and I did talk her into getting her shoes on, but then it was another struggle with screaming and kicking to get her out the door and to the car.
Wouldn't it have been easier if it had gone like this? "I told her...several times over, that if she does not stay in the shallow area we will go home. ...Today she again did her thing. So at that point she was removed from the pool screaming bloody murder and sat in a chair where she continued to scream. I told her to put her shoes on and she refused. I tucked her shoes in my bag and carried her screaming and kicking to get her out the door and to the car." Tell her once and follow through immediately. It sounds like she has been warned before this day, and you told her if she did it again she'd have to leave, but on this day she was allowed to do it at least 3 times (right?) before you followed through on your previously stated consequence.

Same thing with the butterfly garden. You showed her in advance how she was expected to treat the delicate creatures, yet she was allowed to grab them twice and attempt to several more times. I think if you match your actions to your verbal expectations a little more promptly, she'll respond better.

In addition, my DD is a pretty gentle soul, but I wouldn't have dreamed of putting her in a swimming class or taking her to a butterfly house.







Some kids aren't ready for that kind of self-restraint at this age, regardless of how skillfully their parents discipline.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Greaseball, the swim lessons are part of her preschool. But if she continues to wonder away, we will take a break from swim lessons and dh and I can swim with her one on one. I'm going to give her 1 more chance next week and if she's at least trying to listen to the teacher and stay in the shallow end she can continue the lessons. Otherwise I'll just pick her up at swim time and she can go to the YMCA childwatch which she also likes a lot.

Whit, very good points! I would have carried her out of there except I had the baby strapped onto my front and it would have been dangerous for the baby. Next time I'm thinking of setting up a stroller so that she can be placed in it by the teacher and I'll just strap her up and wheel her out before she knows what hit her. Hopefully she won't do it again but I'm mentally prepared for it. She's been talking about it constantly since it happened.

I used to carry her off the playground if she pushed or hit a kid (she used to think it was great fun to walk up to a toddler and push him or her over). I would scoop her up and take her home. It only took 2 times and now she behaves herself very nicely at the playground. It's much harder with a baby in tow to do these things, so most of the time I just avoid the situation all together or wait until dh is home so he can help me.

You are right, I should have just given her one chance, not 3. She has this way of saying "Sorry Mommy" that just moves my heart. She's manipulating me, but at the same time I want to reward her for saying sorry by giving her another chance. Any thoughts on how to handle the "I'm sorry" line?

About the butterfly walkthrough-- I had a feeling it wouldn't go well but was with a friend who took her child in there (much younger and in the sling so controlled) and I didn't want Abi to feel left out. We went to the botanical gardens together and the walkthrough was part of our visit there. If she had shown no control of her impulses it would have been forgivable. But what made me frustrated was she controlled her impulses just fine when she knew I was watching her, and only misbehaved when she thought I wasn't looking. That's what really got to me.

Darshani


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## tinaq (Aug 26, 2002)

Quote:

She has this way of saying "Sorry Mommy" that just moves my heart. She's manipulating me, but at the same time I want to reward her for saying sorry by giving her another chance. Any thoughts on how to handle the "I'm sorry" line?
Oh, Darshani, I'm glad you asked this. My ds does the same thing, only he says in a very sweet voice, "I'm going to stop," or "I won't do it anymore," then *sometimes* proceeds to repeat the behavior. I want to be able to hold him at his word instead of question his intentions everytime.

I hope things go better on your next swim trip. Sounds like you have a plan down.


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

About the sorries...when my kids do this I also sometimes bend and allow another chance. But I've learned that the more consistent thing to do in our house is to respond with something like, "I know you're sorry, and thank you for saying that you're sorry, but you knew X and therefore we now need to Y." There is still sorrow for them that they can't do something, but I also think that there are consequences in the world at large when we do things and that my kids will ultimately be better prepared if they know that a hollow sorry means just that--nothing. kwim?

Whit, great post!

Leah


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I just wanted to reinforce that when you tell her "If you do x we will leave" and then she does X you muct follow through right away the first time. And she is old enough to understand that "I am sorry but you don't cooperate like I need you to and I can't carry you out with the baby strapped on so we will just stay home." It took my kids missing a few things but they cought on pretty quick. It helps that we have a friend who never misses a free event and her kids always come up and ask "why weren't you at XXXXX" and then I have a chance to say "because I couln't trust everyone to cooperate" I only have 2 hands and 3 children. I have to know that someone is going to be able to control themselves. because chasing is not an option. Things are going pretty smoothly now. I often have to chase my 3 year old down but I have a 7 year old who can hold a baby and push a stroller. But there was a long time where we just didn't do anything. They couldn't be trusted to obey and I didn't have the time, energy or inclination to always be fighting them.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

And about the sorry thing.

I tell my children "Me too. We still have to leave because sorry doesn't change how you behaved. Perhaps next time you will remember that rules are here for our saftey and you will obey them., then neither of us will have to be sorry." I also insist that she apologize to anyone who she huirt with her behavior (the swim teacher and the class if nessecary in you situation) and ask for forgiveness (which I think is more powerful than sorry anyway - sorry is just an admission of fault but doesn't do anything to rectify the situation)


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

This is going to be a post from Mamaduck's softer side, I think. While I still think its important to follow through the first time -- and be consistant -- I also think her behavior is an indication that she is a kid who needs a LOT of control in her life. Some of us are just like that -- and I bet she grows up to be an ultra-competent person. So in conjunction with decreasing her level of control in these situations where she makes poor choices -- I would work hard at increasing her level of control in other areas. Giving her extra freedoms in choosing her clothing, planning her day, etc.. lots of choices and lots of responsibilities. I can easily imagine that being only 3 yo, being a really smart kid, and having a new sibling would feel like a frustrating situation to her.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Mamaduck............


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## FullCream (Mar 24, 2004)

I think mamaduck's advice is great - and not just for three year-olds. My DD has certainly reacted negatively to the arrival of her baby brother. Very oppositional, using hurtful words and actions (to me, and occasionally dh, but NEVER with ds) and very angry with the world in general.

In an effort to control those behaviours, dh and I became very controlling of EVERYTHING. And things were just getting worse. We've decided to let a lot go, and let her be responsible for the consequences of things she does (that she knows aren't really acceptable in our family). So, she goes to school with no undies on and wearing two different coloured socks. there are things all over her bedroom floor and playdesk. her hair is often not brushed...these are things that I'm not happy about, but in the long run, I'd rather put up with them for a while than completely stifle my strong-willed, intelligent, unique dd.

we're also working on giving her the skills to do things for herself, and on providing lots of positive feedback. she gets a lot of input into planning meals and snacks (we've always taken her preferences seriously, but now we make it obvious!), to the timing of activities (and seeing the consequences of playing outside late!!) and to choosing clothes (she's supposed to wear a uniform to school) and activities.

we don't bend on safety and health issues, or on treating others fairly and with kindness. we avoid lecturing "if you hadn't done...you wouldn't have to..." and try to make her feel as though she is able to fix problems (even if that is by asking for help).

and when i think about it, that's really what we were doing when she was three and four and five. in the stress of the last 18months, we stopped doing that. and it's made things hard for all of us.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I also don't want to stifle my dd's emotions and expressions. I know that although she is hard to deal with sometimes now, in the long run she is going to be a really interesting person.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Thanks for more feedback!  I actually do give dd lots of choices in her life-- what clothes to wear (undies are not optional though, because at school she has to wear a pull up), what she wants to eat for breakfast and lunch, what video she wants to watch in the afternoon, what game she wants to play with me, etc. I even let her pick the fruit at the store and she's learning to check for bruises. I try to make shopping a mommy and me date and leave baby with dh. So we do make her feel very important in our family and as an individual. For the post part her life is very positive, but there are rules that she needs to follow for her own safety and ours. (No opening the oven, no getting into the cosleeper with the baby, no throwing blocks, etc).

Darshani


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Darshani......

Your girls are absolutley beautiful!!!!!

Just had to say that!


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

I sort of went through something similar with dd when ds was born. She knew I was preoccupied taking care of him and took the opportunity to act out when she knew I was less likely to follow through on what I was telling her.

I had been asking, then giving choices, then counting to three, then just doing it my self (sometimes with a tantrum, if it had to do with her getting dressed).

I stopped asking unless I was willing to take no. Example: do you want to get dressed? No. I'd let her stay naked. (There were days if we didn't leave the house, she didn't get dressed all day.)

I would give a choice. Example: do you want to pick your clothes or do you want me to? If she didn't answer, I'd say 'I guess you want me to pick your clothes' and I'd go to do that. Usually, she'd run after me and say she wanted to do it, so I said something like 'oh, I didn't hear you answer my question, next time, please answer me right away'.

I stopped counting. It drove me nuts and reminded me of my mother. I was counting all day for every little thing. Not working at all. So, if she was misbehaving at a play area. I'd tell her to be nice to the other kids, or we would leave. She'd have one more chance, then we would leave. It really helped me to have a stroller at this point, b/c when I was gathering up ds and our stuff, she would try to run away. With the stroller, I was able to strap her in so she couldn't get away. (I know many here don't agree with this, but if I end up chasing her over and over, I get REALLY angry, REALLY quickly, then all my logic goes out the window. I need to stay calm while dealing with the issue and this helps me to do that.)


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I wonder...is it realistic to expect young children to "respect" their parents? At what age can they start caring about the feelings of others as much as their own feelings?

Occasionally my dd will do things that please me but I don't think that is her motivation - I think sometimes she just happens to feel like doing those things. I don't think she respects me - I think she is glad I'm there and wants to include me in her day as much as she can, and wants the reassurance that I will always be around, and we have fun together, but that's different than respect.


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## raleigh_mom (Jan 11, 2004)

Sending hugs from me, a mama with a very strong willed 3.5 yo DD and an 11 mo DD. So much said here is familiar ground for us. I love reading everyone's input and getting new ideas. And best of all is the encouragement from like-minded mamas about how to deal with these issues and leave our kids intact.

I LOVE reading these boards!!!!!


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## momadance (Mar 13, 2003)

I am so happy I sat here and read this whole thread! I have been having a similar tuff time with ds. He's almost three but generally hits the behavioral and developmental time lines early and firey! It's like it was overnight. I'd just like to say my attitude is 100% positive now and I no longer feel so lost about it all. Thanks mamas.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Maybe 3 IS a bit young to expect respect........but I still want to teach her when she IS disrespectful that it isnt acceptable. I think if you start now, newly verbal.......that their words hurt, or their actions have consequences, than it really builds that foundation.

This is coming from someone who's already had a teen....... start now, it'll will make life easier later!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I think three is totally old enough to be respectful towards others. respect is being considerate of others feelings and giving them the honor they deserve (dd had to write a paper on it







: it was a nightmare - what a vague concept). I start teaching my children to respect others when they are infants. Forst of all I show respect to others above me and who have athourity over me. Secondly I show them respect. I actively teach them to respect others for ex."when you hit your friend that was disrespectful. You should have asked her nicely for the car and accepted her no to mean no" or "it was not respectful to speak to your granma that way even if she was wrong. she is your grandma and if you have aproblem with her you can come to me of you can't think of nice respectful words to use."


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## CTMOMOF2 (Aug 7, 2003)

don't have time right now to read the entire thread, but i wanted to say that first of all, i think it is normal 3 year old behavior... what pains in the *ss they aRE!!!!! Anyway, about the deep=end thing, maybe you could comprimse? if you stay in the shallow end during your lesson, you can have 5 mins in the deep end? I know this isn't the same, but when its raining my son wants to jump in the puddles, but sometimes we are on our way out somewhere and i don't want him to have wet pants and shoes so i tell him that if he cooperates that when we get back we'll put on his rainboots and then he can jump in them all he wants. My son is EXTREMELY spirited and for some reason, this works and he avoids the puddles (for the most part)... but he first words out of his mouth when we return home is "can i jump in the puddles now?" haha


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I start teaching my children to respect others when they are infants. Forst of all I show respect to others above me and who have athourity over me.
But infants don't do anything disrespectful. When my dd was 7 or 8 mos she hit me with the remote, giving me a bloody nose, but it was not out of disrespect. Same for the biting, crying, hair-pulling and other things babies sometimes do.

Maybe you meant teaching respect by showing respect to others? Or to children? That makes sense. I think if infants are respected from day one, and it continues, maybe some of it will stick with them.

I really can't think of anyone above me or who has authority over me. I see everyone else as just another person, no more or less important than me.


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## sea island mama (Dec 17, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by raleigh_mom_
*























Sending hugs from me, a mama with a very strong willed 3.5 yo DD and an 11 mo DD. So much said here is familiar ground for us. I love reading everyone's input and getting new ideas. And best of all is the encouragement from like-minded mamas about how to deal with these issues and leave our kids intact.

I LOVE reading these boards!!!!!*
DITTO


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:

You are right, I should have just given her one chance, not 3. She has this way of saying "Sorry Mommy" that just moves my heart. She's manipulating me, but at the same time I want to reward her for saying sorry by giving her another chance. Any thoughts on how to handle the "I'm sorry" line?
"I am sorry too. I hope that next time you'll stay in the shallow end so we don't have to leave early."

I also like the idea of giving her a chance to play in the deep end after class. If that isn't possible, maybe she could go swimming w/daddy once a week and spend some time in the deep end?


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I start be teaching them actions that would be respectful even if the don't understsand the intent the understanding will come eventually. For example from day one they are not allowed to altch on improperly regardless of how much they want to. If they do I tel them I am sorry I know they want to nurse but they have to let mommy help them do it tight. and granted at that age it is mostly just practice for whn they are older but by 6-9 months my children started doing thing intentionally that they kenw they weren't supposed to and we started differentiating between "that is mommys thing and youmay not bang it but if you want to bang your thing you may" or "that is Madelines hair and you may not pull it. You may pull you own hair if you want"

I think children are pretty disrespectful creatures. It isn't that they are evil they just don't know what to do. Sure most will pick it up trhough watching other eventually if they have a good role modle but how much better to give them a heads up and teach them social rules that wioll make thier lives easier.. The early you start the earlier they will learn them.

My first one doesn't get stuff. She doesn't pick up social cues. She doesn't glean how to act by watching others. And she doesn't natrually ever put others abover herself. Everything with her socially has been a struggle and we have to really watch her and then really teach her how to act. I wish it could be genuine motivated but it just isn't. Don't get me wrong, she wants to be nice and pleasent and respectful but she just doesn't make the connection between what those things are and how to live them out. It never occured to me that this was something that had to be practiced and tought and rehersed until I met her. My other two on the other hand are extremely socially aware and have always had the desire to show love, respect and kindness to other above themselves. So they are easy. The most I have ever had to say "is that how we treat them?" and the amended thier behaviour.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

My first one doesn't get stuff. She doesn't pick up social cues. She doesn't glean how to act by watching others. And she doesn't natrually ever put others abover herself.
But is this to be desired? I suppose it depends on the kind of people you live around, but I don't want my children to pick up on the social cues around them because I see the way people treat each other and it's not right. I don't want them to learn about "rules for girls" and "rules for boys" which is what kids learn here. There aren't that many others that are good role models. And I wouldn't expect them to put others above themselves, I'd expect them to treat everyone as an equal to themselves (and know they don't have to put up with people who put themselves above anyone).

Maybe if we lived around people who were nicer to each other, this would not be a problem. People are always telling me I'm not developing dd's social skills since she's not in preschool, but I don't think the things she would learn there would be very valuable.


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## Gendenwitha (Apr 2, 2002)

As much as I support non-violent communication, and explaining things out, etc., I learned a lot from my sister who has four kids. She was an army brat, in Germany, and has some of that 'militant' type attitude with the kids, but not totally authoritarian either (partly because of a great sense of humor), but she has FOUR kids, and when she watched mine and another little boy, it was SEVEN under the age of SIX! She didn't have time to explain out everything several times. Things get a request/explaination, and then there are quick consequences for not following. For her, it was necessity, for me, it was watching that it worked.

I also make sure I'm phrasing things in such a way that explains my EXPECTATION as the positive (thanks to Jean Leidoff's The Coninium Concept).

For example: 1. Gary, I need you to stay in the playground area because when you get close to the road, it distracts the drivers because they don't know where you're going to go next. 2. Gary, I told you to stay on the playground, if you don't we're going to leave. 3. We leave. No explaination, no anything, we just leave, and if he has a temper tantrum that's fine, it's still not going to change the decision to leave.

Things that have their own consequences are even better, "Alaric, take your jacket it's supposed to rain today"... They're better because you give them more responsiblity.

Do you sometimes give her one chance when your temper's short and sometimes give her many chances when you really don't feel like enforcing consequences? However many times you give her second and third chances, stick to what you say are going to be the consequences. Not to assume you aren't already, but the more precise you can be the better it will work.

Maybe it's just a new-baby-sibling phase too. Good luck!


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

one HUGE thing stood out to me in this thread ~

Quote:

In an effort to control those behaviours, dh and I became very controlling of EVERYTHING. And things were just getting worse. We've decided to let a lot go, and let her be responsible for the consequences of things she does (that she knows aren't really acceptable in our family). So, she goes to school with no undies on and wearing two different coloured socks. there are things all over her bedroom floor and playdesk. her hair is often not brushed...these are things that I'm not happy about, but in the long run, I'd rather put up with them for a while than completely stifle my strong-willed, intelligent, unique dd.
you know, kids need boundaries.

if you don't set down the rules, and show her that you are the parent and that rules need to be followed, these behaviours aren't just going to go away ~ they're going to get worse.

to the OP ~ of course your dd is acting like that -- she's THREE. her role in life right now is to test everything and find out what's ok and what's not; your role in her life right now is to guide her (constantly and consistently) toward the right choices, and provide gentle discipline when she does something wrong. she's learning, you're teaching, in every single thing you do and say.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

No I mean she doesn't pick up on social cues like personal space, she doesn't relize ever when she is making someone uncomfortable emotionally or physically but what she is doing. If she is talkingt oo loud or too much she doesn't get the hint when her friend backs up, turns away or walks off. And forget picking up on subtle stuff :LOL It is a challenge and she doesn't want to be perpetually offensive (and being boisterous in nature this inability to read social cues is more often than not a hinderence to her participating in social interaction but it is getting better) but we have been working on it and I send her hand signals or just step in and whisper "I htink Micah wants you to back up and speak more softly. remember micah a quite kid" or as a nother example for a while she was obsessed with marrying this little boy (because evryone had to say they would surely get married on day ) and when she would start going on and on and he would get the "oh please seet jesus can we talk about something else" look on his face i would jump in and say something like "So Joe, read any good spiderman books lately? and she would remember that we had talked about things he would prefer to talk about and take it from there. So that is what I meant by picking up social cues. Actually knowing how to interact with people in a way so that there is a chance that they wil interact with you again. Not becoming a lemming who does everything her peers do. totally different things.

As for as social interactioin goes and picking up habits from other kids etc. . . her friends are carefully chosen and come from families I know and love and that I know have similar values to us or that she at least won't pick up any habits to hard to correct or too set in stone in a couple of playdates a week. We started doing that because it was breaking her heart to be around eople who would ditch her because of her social akwardness. so now we have some good friends who love her and know how to deal with her akwardness. They are sweet kids with so much love in ther hearts and makes me teary just knowing that my dd is fortunate enough to have friends like them. I was socially akward as a child because i was raised by wolves and it sucked,. I didn't have many friends and none of them were as sweet as Madelines friends.

I guess it would be easiest to understand if you saw Madeline and Lilyka side by side in social interactions. Lilyka gets it more than most people. She always picks up on social cues right away, knows exactly what to do and does it. If some one is sad she knows to hold thier hand, give them a hug and kiss, say something sweet, or crack a joke. It is uncanny really. She is only 3 but has been like this since she was an infant. I actually find myself taking cues from her sometimes. She is really good at it. And I am not just talking about nice. it is more of a reading people and then intuitivly knowing what they need or knowing what to do to get a desired result (she often uses these powers for bad. As in she knows exactly how to make someone cry, make them angry at someone else etc. . and she is so fast that the damage is done before we have heard the words coming from her mouth. We are working on that too







)

and yes I think it is desireable for her to put others above herself. Not in a door mat kind of way but if we are all serving each other no one will have unmet needs. Submitting to one another out of love and reverance for Christ. It is a nice way to live I think. living for others instead of ourselves and our selfish desires. But that is anoither thread entirely i think


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

So, she goes to school with no undies on and wearing two different coloured socks. there are things all over her bedroom floor and playdesk. her hair is often not brushed...
What I got from this (and maybe I'm wrong) is "Don't sweat the small stuff." Who cares if a kid doesn't wear underwear, assuming they are toilet-proficient and wearing pants? Mismatched socks never hurt anyone either. When I was in grade school I wore clothes inside out and backwards, up to three pairs of underwear at a time, messy hair (and buzz cuts for several years), and mismatched socks and shoes. It never hurt anyone, and if my parents had made a big deal of it, it would have gotten worse. And yes, I grew right out of it.









I agree that kids need boundaries, but I try to limit mine to safety and respect for others.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

"Don't sweat the small stuff." Who cares if a kid doesn't wear underwear, assuming they are toilet-proficient and wearing pants? Mismatched socks never hurt anyone either.
i try not to sweat the small stuff, but i draw the line at personal hygeine + upkeeping. i mean, i'm not militant about everything being tidy or my son always being ***** and span, but if a kid is going to school they need to learn to take care of themselves... IMO children need to learn that their appearance affects how others perceive them (and unfortunately that's the truth, even though i'm going to teach my kids not to judge others based on stereotypes / appearances / anything... people judge based on appearance). i've known too many kids who were raised with the idea that it's perfectly fine to go out looking grungy, that grew up to not hold any decent jobs and *still* look grungy because they just never learned to care. they're busy working part time temp jobs and construction work and now are so set in the idea that they should be able to wear whatever they want and it shouldn't matter that they can't suck it up, dress neatly, learn to iron and wear matching socks that they aren't going anywhere.

i can't imagine that's just a local phenomenon, either.

i don't think kids should be shamed into caring, but i just think they need to be guided toward better choices. (and i mention that because my mom *did* try to use shame and embarassment to get me to dress more nicely and take care of myself, which only made me feel worse about myself and *not* care... and that was obviously the wrong approach...)

maybe it's just a matter of teaching and reinforcing good habits.

but then, it does depend on a person or family's priorities.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

But one can be hygenic and still dress funny. It doesn't mean you don't care about yourself - some people like the look of different colored socks, and when I was in middle school, inside-out and backwards shirts were all the rage. I didn't start wearing underwear until I was 16 or so, unless I wore a skirt. I suppose one could say that's unhygenic, but if you don't have "accidents" and if you wash your pants every day, then...

How does anyone know a kid isn't wearing underwear, anyway?

Sure, some people teased me, but it was mostly about my shaved head and the fact that I looked like a boy. And they found things to tease me about that were not related to my appearance or dress, too.

I suppose some people never learn anything, but my point was that although I dressed weird as a kid, it didn't carry over into adulthood the way people sometimes fear it will. To me, it's just something I have to let a kid grow out of - just like nursing or sharing a parent's bed. Many people believe that "boundaries need to be set" and "the kid will ask for it while he's still in college if you don't make him cut it out" but has that ever happened? Right after 5th grade I started to care about how I looked. I'm sure for most kids, at puberty they will care.

If they don't pay attention to personal hygiene, I'd say something else is wrong in their lives and that it's not just a discipline issue.

I also have very little reason to be in my child's room, unless I'm putting stuff away or putting her in bed, so I don't care about the mess until it looks like she might trip on something.


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Darshani,
I could have written the same exact post and I have enjoyed reading all the great responses you have gotten. Not much to add, just wanted to express my support.

I hope you will not be avoiding my house though!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

In an effort to control those behaviours, dh and I became very controlling of EVERYTHING. And things were just getting worse. We've decided to let a lot go, and let her be responsible for the consequences of things she does (that she knows aren't really acceptable in our family). So, she goes to school with no undies on and wearing two different coloured socks. there are things all over her bedroom floor and playdesk. her hair is often not brushed...these are things that I'm not happy about, but in the long run, I'd rather put up with them for a while than completely stifle my strong-willed, intelligent, unique dd.
Okay, what I understood from this... is that you need to choose your battles, and that if you are making everything a battle and leaving *no* choices to your child, then you will be less likely to make progress in the areas that are of the highest priority (safety and respect.) And I agree. If everything is a battle, they just tune out and stop trying. I don't think *any* of these behaviors indicate a lack of hygeine. IMO its perfectly fine for a 3-4 yo child to have an intersting combination of clothing on, or uncombed hair. It sounded to me that this child had plenty of appropriate boundries.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

How does anyone know a kid isn't wearing underwear, anyway?
When dd isnt nude, she wears dresses, preferabley w/o underwear. Which is fine by me when we are home.....but the other day I had a doctor appt and left in a rush. While in the waiting room, dd started lifting her dress and doing leg lifts while lying on the chair.......







EVERYONE knew she didnt have any underwear on! Maybe Im just overprotective, but with all the pedifiles and perverts out there, I prefer she wear underwear.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Gendenwitha wrote:

Quote:

I also make sure I'm phrasing things in such a way that explains my EXPECTATION as the positive (thanks to Jean Leidoff's The Coninium Concept). For example: 1. Gary, I need you to stay in the playground area because when you get close to the road, it distracts the drivers because they don't know where you're going to go next. 2. Gary, I told you to stay on the playground, if you don't we're going to leave.








I'm missing something. What is the positive message here? You state the behavior you want but immediately follow it up by talking about what will happen if he doesn't do it. I guess you mean that you're saying "stay in the playground" instead of "don't leave the playground"? That's good, but it's not really that positive.

I thought what Liedloff was advocating was more like this: Start out by assuming that Gary will stay in the playground and don't say anything. 1. When he runs toward the road, summon him back and say, "We are here to play on the playground." 2. "It looks to me like you are tired of the playground. Shall we go home?" "No!" "Okay, if you want to stay here, you need to stay in the playground." 3. "I see you are finished playing in the playground. We are going home now."

I do admire your following through after one warning. That's important in showing that you mean what you say.


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## mama2cubs (Mar 13, 2004)

I'm new to the board and so glad that I read this thread.
Thanks for some great advice and useful tips.

mama to noah (2001) and alex (2004)


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