# Misogyny and birth



## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

I'm doing some writing about the misogyny that underlies the culture of birth in the US. I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts (but only if you don't mind my shamelessly ripping them off!







). I'm considering a number of things: the indoctrination of fear that causes women to mistrust their own bodies; the control that the "system" has over women's bodies before, during and after birth (and the simultaneous pooh-poohing of any real interrogation of that system); the devaluation of the pain of birth as a rite of passage; media images of birth, particularly on television shows; the condescension, manipulation, and outright lies many women face during a hospital birth; and so on.

I'd be particularly interested to hear birth stories where mamas faced some of these issues--especially cases where women felt demeaned, manipulated, or belittled by a doctor or hospital staff member.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

* Deleted (cause it doesn't compare to the other stories).


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## kathan12904 (Jun 23, 2006)

Condescension (sp?) is the main issue I dealt with. My OB gave me the most rudimentary explainations and answers to my questions, often repeating information to me that I had just expressed my knowledge and understanding of in our conversation. It was like he wasn't even listening to me thoughts or concerns, just honing in on one word that I had used in order to present to me a stock answer that he had ready. When I started bringing up my desires for the birth, he was always smiling and nodding and supportive, but followed all that with "unless something goes terribly wrong" or "as long as that is still safe" Over all, he always spoke to me in a sing-songy voice like I was a preschooler.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

I don't have much to add, just wanted to say that it is a brilliant idea and I'd love to read it when you are done, if you feel comfortable and are able to post it. I actually think mysogyny in regards to womens health goes above and beyond birth issues though I know you are focusing on that right now. So great to see anyone delving into this at all!!!

Laohaire...







I am so sorry for your experience!


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## Herausgeber (Apr 29, 2006)

Oh boy. I have to say, as a feminist, I thought I knew what misogyny looked like.

Then I got pregnant.

Lord knows how I will feel about it post-birth. I feel very lucky to be able to get midwifery care.

A lot of it comes down to the idea of women's bodies being fundamentally flawed, with pregnancy, birth and nursing being the epitome of the differences that make our bodies inferior to the male models. When I hear men tell me that their wives had to have C-sections because they didn't have the "right kind of pelvis" for natural birth, and that their doctor told them that most women don't have the "right kind." The quickness with with they do C-sections and episiotomy. The "be a good little patient" mentality that keeps women silent and compliant in the hospital. When people look at machines instead of the women they are supposed to be caring for.

I'm thinking about even little things. My MWs giving me copies of my chart, and letting me read the notes they make. I've never had a doctor do that.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm not in the US, and don't have much to add...but have you thought of also approaching the very fact that a pregnant women is considered a medical patient? Why does the fact that our bodies are performing such a basic function qualify us as "ill"? I haven't noticed anybody recommending that I go see my doctor when I have to pee...


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Herausgeber* 
I'm thinking about even little things. My MWs giving me copies of my chart, and letting me read the notes they make. I've never had a doctor do that.

Yes, isn't that amazing? (I chuckled when I read the notes from my birth..."A. arrived at 11:30 pm and was having difficulty coping." Darn straight, I was! I went through transition in the car!







) And being able to weigh yourself and write it down? the first time I did that, I felt like this huge burden had been lifted.

It's pretty sad, when you think about it.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Informed consent often goes out the window. I can't tell you how many women I know whose doctors have swept their membranes without telling them until after, let alone asking for informed consent.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
Yes, isn't that amazing? (I chuckled when I read the notes from my birth..."A. arrived at 11:30 pm and was having difficulty coping." Darn straight, I was! I went through transition in the car!







) And being able to weigh yourself and write it down? the first time I did that, I felt like this huge burden had been lifted.

It's pretty sad, when you think about it.

Yeah my mws give their clients their charts. I didn't have to weigh myself. I tested my own urine and did my own gbs swab.


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## saintmom (Aug 19, 2003)

Routine Episiotomy


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## jennica (Aug 10, 2005)

I had midwives and they were no more respectful than an OB would have been. From stripping my membranes without getting consent or even telling me they were going to do it, to doing vaginal exams against my will and trying to manually dilate my cervix against my will, to giving me an episiotomy against my will, to giving me drugs without my consent, to not following my wishes, to coercing me into doing things I didn't want done, to not advocating for me to the nurses and letting them take my baby away from me right after the birth before I could even touch or hold him, to not caring about breastfeeding at all or bonding, to being on the side of any other hospital staff member that wanted to yell/scold/complain about me/take my baby away from me, at any given time during the birth and immediate post partum time period. My written wishes were totally ignored and no one in the room even seemed aware of them. My opinion was never asked, I was just told to do things and then they would get mad if I didn't comply. Most confusing to me was that my dh was respected, and HE was asked for opinions, told what was happening, and would gently have things explained to him, and they would even stop to allow time to show him and tell him what was going on, meanwhile acting as if I was not even a person, and refusing to even hear anything I had to say. They even told dh, 30 minutes after ds was born, that HE could hold him now. Umm, hello, what about ME!!! I just pushed him out, when do I get to hold him? It was like I wasn't even there, even though the whole event centered around me. It was the oddest, most confusing, most bewildering, most traumatic thing I've ever experienced in my life.


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## velcromom (Sep 23, 2003)

I think it's a great idea. I've been collecting stories about women being lied to, treated like children, and walked all over even when they did try to stand up for themselves. It's a seven page document so far and growing all the time. It's disgusting that it's so easy to find stories like these. And like my collection of anti-NIP articles, a disgusting thing to have to document but the work is too valuable not to do. It has to be taken out and shown for the sick sick thing it is.

Thanks for doing this difficult work, please share it with us when you are finished. Women need to be told the truth, and any way I can help, let me know. I'd be happy to share your work with my mother's group, my preschool co-op and link to my site too.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

I had a standard first appointment with a doctor I had never met before in which he did a vaginal exam. That in itself is weird enough, isn't it? I have no relationship with this person, not even professionally, and it's considered normal for him to be sticking his hand up me? When I have no medical issues? I don't know that I would label that "misogyny", maybe just inhuman. It seems to me that people in general are treated as less than thinking, human beings when in a hospital environment. And I sensed no hostility from the doctor, latent or otherwise. I do wonder, now, what possesses someone like him to enter obstetrics. Clearly he had no interest in me as a human being, nor did it occur to him to have respect for my body or feelings. To him, it was just a clinical job. But why specialize in dealing with _women's bodies_, then? Why not, I don't know, be a podiatrist or something? I've heard that men tend to go into obstretics because it's considered easier than other specialties. Which reminds me of this: http://upalumni.org/medschool/ob-gyn.html which might be right up your alley for this project. There isn't much mentioned about birth, but about misogyny in women's health care in general.

Unfortunately the midwife I decided to go to instead turned out to be awful, contrary to the sweet gentle facade she presented during our prenatal visits. I hesitate to call that misogyny also, because I think it was a combination of how she was trained and her inability to deal with my style of laboring. I certainly felt demeaned, manipulated, and belittled, though. I wrote a letter to her, not to send, but just to get it out so I could start to move on. PM me if you'd like to read it.

My other experience that is worth noting doesn't have to do with birth but women's care. I had gone to see a nurse practitioner to... I guess to have a pap, and that evolved into the whole exam including a breast exam. She was very abrupt and sort of snorted when she found I'd had my babies at home. She mauled my breasts (so that I ended up with an infection) then asked what birth control we were using which I was kind of taken aback by, because really, if I wanted to talk to her about it wouldn't I bring it up? It felt kind of intrusive and condescending, like she needed to cover all the bases for my sake, it's her job to make sure I'm thinking about these things, you know. I should have just said that I had no concerns or needs regarding that but she was really into the "I am the expert you are the patient" mentality and I was too cowed to assert myself. So I simply answered, said we were using condoms. She said, in this very condescending tone, "well you can't do that forever. You're going to be fertile for a long time and you need to think about more reliable methods of contraception." !!! Here I am, an adult woman, and she's lecturing me! I wouldn't set foot in her office again if she were the last pap smearer left on earth. But I should have written a letter. Not that it would have done any good, probably, but I still should have.


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## beka1977 (Aug 1, 2004)

I am not sure that it is necessarily a case of misogyny.... more a case of the medical establishment against the "patient". I have had some loving and wonderful care from men, and some horrible, demeaning, make you cry care from women. Just a thought.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

women can be misogynists.


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

something that was said to a Native America woman who had some braxton hicks contractions and was sent to the hospital by a clinic she was seeing because she was dilated to 3 well she didn't have labor but spent the night in the hospital-- and both the extended families were in the room- the doc did not want her to go home he wanted her to stay and do an induction, so he said a vagina is a "dirty place" and I think that is an underlying thought all the time-- he just voiced it out loud. it is sort of the unknown -unknowable amount of dirtyness that is present, you could have been tested and cross tested but still not ok.
of course this is how this woman became our client- the family left the hospital , telling the doctor they just had a very different belief about a woman's body thank you very much but no thanks..


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## jennica (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
women can be misogynists.









Everyone who treated me in the hospital was a woman, and they were all misogynists.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I was going to say that one of the scariest aspects of the misogyny in birth is that women can be the worst offenders.

It all comes down to trust. At this point women are expected to trust their care providers and the care providers aren't expected to trust the women.


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## Herausgeber (Apr 29, 2006)

One of the most amazing things is how reluctant we are to call it for what it is. And it IS misogyny. It is a disdain for women's bodies, for the very thing that makes us women. It's not about individuals even. It's systematic, which makes it so much harder to recognize and fight. Women often walk away feeling uneasy about their birth experience, but they assume it must be because of a problem with THEM, or if they look beyond that, it's THEIR doctor or THEIR hospital.

Control of reproduction is the very core of misogyny, IMO. The struggle is all about who gets to f*ck whom and who owns the babies when they're done. What you frequently see in the labor and delivery room is a naked power grab by men, often with women's assistance, over reproduction.

Look at how quickly they snatch our babies away from us in the name of "hospital procedure"?


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## homemademomma (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 







I was going to say that one of the scariest aspects of the misogyny in birth is that women can be the worst offenders.

It all comes down to trust. At this point women are expected to trust their care providers and the care providers aren't expected to trust the women.

and midwives (even homebirth midwives **gasp**) can be just as bad as OBs. maybe even worse, bc women go to them expecting something better.


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## Floyderman (Oct 14, 2006)

Interesting to note: I posted a link to this article on three different baby boards, and got three _very_ different responses:

http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/middleclass.asp

One board was considered "crunchy" (very female-centered and free thinking)
One board was more conservative (_very_ argumentative and the women took *great* offense to this article)
One board was middle of the road (more lighthearted support than a real exchange of information).

The members of the argumentative board were so consumed with the idea that they were being attacked for their actions/views during pregnancy that they couldn't see the big picture - or that they were the ones perpetuating an intervention-obsessed culture.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Ooo, I just read that article. I enjoyed it!

However, it really reads like it's talking about stereotypical 1950's housewives--you know the sort that appeared on TV, but weren't real? It's a negative connotation. If I identified with that group I wouldn't see "me" I'd see something that was clearly meant to represent "me" but was distorted and wrong. As I was reading it, I was getting defensive about the descriptions on behalf of women I know.

Quote:

They typically follow the advice of husbands, doctors, popular magazines and other authorities rather than their own wisdom, in order to behave appropriately to their standing rather than make waves by inadvertently acting differently.
For instance this would raise the hackles of any woman identifying as a "feminist" or "self-confident"/"powerful"/"in charge" etc--even if it's a completely accurate description of her.

In media directed at women (as opposed to in spite of women) there is a message that it is wrong to be dependent, women are supposed to be strong and stand up for themselves. So any message that this is not happening in birth has to acknowledge that women try to meet this ideal in other areas. To get the message through about birth, it can't be "you are weak and bullied in birth as in all other things" it has to be "you need to empower yourself about birth as you are empowering yourself in other areas of your life."

And I really don't think the article was written to be read by the women it's talking about.


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## roslyn (Aug 23, 2006)

Dear Goddess, I'm surprised they didn't burn you in effigy (or actuality for that matter). Attack the white supremacist, capitalist patriarchal social paradigm? Ye Gods!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roslyn* 
Dear Goddess, I'm surprised they didn't burn you in effigy (or actuality for that matter). Attack the white supremacist, capitalist patriarchal social paradigm? Ye Gods!

That's just it. The article isn't just attacking the "white supremacist, capitalist patriarchal social paradigm" it's simultaneously telling these women they are unwitting victims of the "white supremacist, capitalist patriarchal social paradigm" and accusing them of deliberately perpetuating the "white supremacist, capitalist patriarchal social paradigm".

The message, *when presented to the demographic described in the article*, is basically "you're a victim and it's your fault because you're bad." When presented to the intended audience the message is "there is a problem because these women have these ingrained beliefs, how can we help them?"

The first message is unproductive and judgemental in the extreme. The second message might actually help women some day.


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## Cigilteach (Sep 8, 2006)

deleted


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Cigilteach,

I'm so sorry... I wanted to cry to hear your story.

I'm probably breaking UA but... Hell must be full of OBs.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

During my extremely medicalized first birth, the doctors and nurses did not even speak to me or look me in the eye. They asked my mom if it was okay to give me water. They told my mom I needed Pitocin. They never asked me if I needed anything or was comfortable at all. It was horrible. They cut an episiotomy and pulled my son out via vacuum extraction after telling my mom that my son was having decels. Not me.
I felt like a vessel giving birth instead of a woman and mother. Which led to post partum depression and difficulty bonding with my son.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Cigilteach...I'm just...shocked. That is one of the most horrible stories I've heard, and every single person involved should get their license to practice medicine revoked.

I notice that you're pregnant, and I hope you can find some healing in your next birth.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

this thread is so sad.







:

i don't know if what happened to me was entirely misogyny or what... i had a female OB and i thought that she was great before my ds's birth. she would always take the time to listen to me during our appts and was really great. she never criticized me for asking questions or anything. but when we got to the hospital that evening, she came in to check on me and told me how great i was doing. i expressed my wishes to her that i didn't want the cord cut until after it had finished working and she said that was fine. there was one nurse there that checked my dialtion twice, once when i was admitted to the hospital and once that evening, and she was really rough and the exams were painful. she didn't seem to care and didn't pay too much attention to me.

the next morning my OB came in and checked my dilation (i was 7 cm) and decided to pop my water. i didn't really want it done, but i was scared (i was 18 and i was in labor 6 weeks before my EDD, i was worried that my ds would have to go to the NICU and i just wanted to get through the labor and see him and make sure he was oK.) as soon as she popped my water, my contractions went from feeling like mild menstrual cramps to feeling like my body was being torn apart. i got up on the bed on my knees, because the contractions were less painful that way and i was able to cope better. the attending nurse tried to convince me to sit down and recline (be a good patient!) and i tried for half a contraction, but i just couldn't do it. so i labored for an hour on my knees until transition. i had a couple of minutes of rest after i completed dilation and i sat there reclining with my eyes closed waiting for the next one to come. as soon as it did i got back on my knees and the nurse again tried to get me to sit back down as my OB came in to catch my baby. my OB told her that i was fine, which was good, because at that point i really don't think i would've listened anyways. i pushed the baby out in 15 min. the nurse was shocked because she had never seen a baby born that quickly. i silently thought to myself "no wonder, if she is always making sure the mommas are 'good patients' instead of letting them be upright."

after about 2 or 3 minutes, the OB said "oK, the cord is finished working now" and had my dh cut the cord, even though it was obviously still working. i sat there in shock as it happened in seemingly slow motion right in front of me. then they whisked my ds away and gave him oxygen because he was a little blue. the OB proceeded to yank on the cord until i delivered the placenta. at least i got to have a good look at the placenta as she examined it there at the bed, i thought that was nice. my ds was still in the incubator. after the OB left, the nurse had me lay down on the bed and aggresively massaged my uterus. then she layed a bed pan underneath me and told me to pee. i tried and told her i couldn't. so she escorted me to the bathroom and gave me a bottle of water and had me sit on the toilet. she acted like i was kinda silly for taking so long and for hissing as i went pee because i had some small tears and the urine stung even with using the water. i thought it was weird to have an audience.

then she had me go sit back down in the bed and gave me the hospital menu and told me to order something. i told her i wanted to try and nurse my son and she said that i needed to eat something first. i wasn't interested in eating! but i listened. so i didn't get to hold my baby again or nurse him until an hour later. by that time, my ds was really hungry and wanting to nurse and he was hard to console. i think this is the biggest reason why my ds has a bad latch. the lactation consultant noticed he had a tight frenulum which he had surgery for when he was 3 mo but she said his latch looked fine other than that. he still has a bad latch though.







: also, the nurse told me sometime, i can't remember when, that my ds was only 3 weeks early not 6, but that my OB said she didn't want to readjust the EDD. i think i suffered from more misogyny in the following weeks than i did at my birth.

*sigh* thanks for letting me share.


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## roslyn (Aug 23, 2006)

Are they victims or willing co-conspirators in their own oppression for the alleged benefit of being at the top of the socio-economic pedestal?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
That's just it. The article isn't just attacking the "white supremacist, capitalist patriarchal social paradigm" it's simultaneously telling these women they are unwitting victims of the "white supremacist, capitalist patriarchal social paradigm" and accusing them of deliberately perpetuating the "white supremacist, capitalist patriarchal social paradigm".

The message, *when presented to the demographic described in the article*, is basically "you're a victim and it's your fault because you're bad." When presented to the intended audience the message is "there is a problem because these women have these ingrained beliefs, how can we help them?"

The first message is unproductive and judgemental in the extreme. The second message might actually help women some day.


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## meggles (Mar 9, 2004)

Have you read Misconceptions by Naomi Wolf? I think it would be a great resource for your project.

Also, I think it's important to note the difference between how pregnancy and birth are typically viewed in the western medical model (lack of informed consent, routine interventions, etc) and true misogyny. There is an overlap and sort of a cause and effect relationship between them that I find particularly interesting.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roslyn* 
Are they victims or willing co-conspirators in their own oppression for the alleged benefit of being at the top of the socio-economic pedestal?

According to the article they're both.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meggles* 
Also, I think it's important to note the difference between how pregnancy and birth are typically viewed in the western medical model (lack of informed consent, routine interventions, etc) and true misogyny. There is an overlap and sort of a cause and effect relationship between them that I find particularly interesting.

Chicken may I introduce Egg. Egg, Chicken.


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## roslyn (Aug 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
According to the article they're both.

Interesting, I didn't read it that way at all, but I can see where you're coming from. If you want to read about victimization of women and fertility, check out a book called 'Killing the Black Body.' It provides some major insight as to the experiences of minority women in this process. I guess I spent too many years working with and for the economically disadvantaged to really have any empathy for well-educated, affluent women who choose for their own benefit to go through an intervention-laden birth. I've talked to quite a few of them in my mommy group and I'm convinced that they totally understand what the trade-off is. But the benefit of having a 'status symbol birth' is worth it to them. Victim of the system of misogyny? I don't think so. BTW, I'll be more than happy to lend you my copy of the book. It's a real eye-opener.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I don't need nightmares, but thank you for offering. Add racism and classism to misogyny and you end up with birth rape so bad I wouldn't even wish it on the perpetrators.

Of course if *all* women, particularly those who could speak from a position of power if they chose (i.e. rich white women), were to speak up about despicable treatment and to reject procedures that are done for no reason other than "it's policy" then... well, I'm not sure what would happen, but it would definitely be an improvement.

I don't think you should be sympathetic. I'm not saying that there *isn't* a serious problem with the attitudes of the women described in the http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/middleclass.asp article. What I'm saying is that the article is written in a way that will do *nothing* to educate those women.


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## roslyn (Aug 23, 2006)

Quote:

I don't need nightmares, but thank you for offering. Add racism and classism to misogyny and you end up with birth rape so bad I wouldn't even wish it on the perpetrators.
Yeah, it is a bit hard to take. I've been fairly fortunate in my birth experiences, but I happen to be affluent and well-educated myself.

Quote:

Of course if *all* women, particularly those who could speak from a position of power if they chose (i.e. rich white women), were to speak up about despicable treatment and to reject procedures that are done for no reason other than "it's policy" then... well, I'm not sure what would happen, but it would definitely be an improvement.
I'm sure that's true, I just don't know if they're willing to lose status for the sake of others.

Quote:

What I'm saying is that the article is written in a way that will do *nothing* to educate those women.
I agree with this too. I doubt most of these women would touch an article in Midwifery Today, anyway. When I told one woman in my mommy group that all the women in my family had homebirths, she looked disgusted and asked, 'Where were y'all born, Africa? Why would anybody in a civilized country choose homebirth?'


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roslyn* 
I agree with this too. I doubt most of these women would touch an article in Midwifery Today, anyway. When I told one woman in my mommy group that all the women in my family had homebirths, she looked disgusted and asked, 'Where were y'all born, Africa? Why would anybody in a civilized country choose homebirth?'

Seriously? She seriously heard that come out of her mouth and didn't follow up with an abject apology?







: So is she one of the women you're talking about that wouldn't be willing to give up privilege? Most of the middle-class white women I know are engineers (I'm still in school, myself).


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## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

I never really looked at my births this way but taking them all apart I definitely see it that way now.

DS1 was, and I have always thought this, a traumatic birth. I was 15, never had an internal exam, never been to an OB.. etc. I was terrified and I was also on state aid which meant I went to the clinic. It didn't matter your appt time there you sat and waited all day for a doctor that was truly evil and saw you as just another "piece of meat". That's how I felt at least. He never took the time to answer my questions. He viewed me as just another statistic and thought I was just some promiscuous teenager that made this terrible mistake and how dare I waste his time with questions! Towards the end of my pregnancy he tried numerous times to scrape my membranes. I had no idea what this meant.. I was given no explanation. When it happened the first time I was practically in a back bend from the pain. It was terrible. After I went 2 weeks over my due date (which changed more than once) he decided to induce me. On the day of my induction we found out he induced *9* other women besides me! My labor of course was very hard, I had no idea what I was getting into either. The nurses kept coming in to up the pitocin in my body and I can remember crying to my grandmother please I am done I just want to go home.. she to this day won't see another baby born because it traumatized her as well. Once contractions started getting harder I was screaming. One of the nurses aides came in and told me to shut up and that I was disturbing the other patients. I had one nurse that was very nice to me she came in and lowered the pitocin and said to my grandmother and my son's father that she didn't know why it was up so high. My water bag was also manually broke. When it finally came time to deliver (after being told not to push at all for over an hour) I was brought into the Csection room because this doctor was playing God and all the other delivery rooms were taken. He came in told me when to push and when ds father was enthusiastic about the birth trying to describe things to me he told him to shut up that I didn't want to hear that. He gave me an episiotomy (from my vagina almost to my rectum) and my baby was born within minutes. I had over a hundred stitches inside and out. My baby was whisked away from me and I saw him maybe 3 times the whole time I was in the hospital eventhough I stated I wanted to try to breastfeed. My doctor overrode that and made the nurses put formula feed only on his little card. Before I left the hospital I was given a prescription for BC without even being asked and went home so sore and broken from his birth.

DS2- His birth was my most "natural". I was induced with him as well because my doctor (different OB) felt it was best. They didn't use pitocin until the end though.. just a gel or a pill in my cervix. This caused my contractions to "piggyback" and they had to give me a shot of some crazy drug that made me feel like I was on crack or something. My dh asked me if I was ok because my eyes were bugging out of my head. I was actually "allowed" to get out of bed and sit in the shower for a bit although the nurse asked me if I was sure I wanted to do that! I said um yeah I wouldn't have paged you otherwise! I went from 4 cms to 9 in a 45 min shower because I was able to relax in there. When I got out my contractions hit pretty hard and the nurse had me lay on my back while she prepared everything for my son's birth. When the urge to push came on pretty strong I tried not to because that is what she told me to do. I couldn't help it though and my water broke on it's own. When I told her my water broke she asked me if I was sure.







: In my irritation I told her no I just pissed all over myself! She called the doctor after that and his birth went pretty well aside from getting stuck and being pulled out which broke his little collarbone.

DS3- I honestly thought by this time I knew enough about birth. I was again induced because I have a tendency to keep them in long. They hooked me up to the pitocin drip after the pills in my cervix refused to work. I was told I had to stay on my back to labor because I had such a strong reaction with my last birth to the gel or pill. I asked if I could get into the shower because it would relax me and things would go better for me and the baby. I was told NO. I was in such awful pain and discomfort pretty much right from the get go. By 4 cms I couldn't take it anymore and a nurse came in to give me something to take the edge off. The doctor came in 10 minutes later to manually break my water. That made things so much worse. I finally opted for an epidural because I couldn't take it anymore.. I honestly felt like my uterus was going to explode. I went from 4 to pushing in 30 minutes. My nurse (who was great!) told me that they thought the cord was wrapped around his neck but that the doctor would get upset with her if he knew she told me that. She felt all her patients should be informed of everything happening with them. She was actually against my getting the epidural because I was adamant in the beginning of not having one. He was delivered just fine and was immediately placed at my breast.

I have to say that I always wanted a homebirth but was never in the position of having one. (we always lived with someone else) I think I was very uneducated with my first and really thought I was educated with my last. I really dislike Ob's. My doctor that did my 6 week check after both ds2 and ds3 asked me what sort of BC I would be taking and when I said none he scoffed at me and said he would see me in 3 mos pregnant again.







: It's not like my kids are spaced that close they are all about 3 yrs apart! Besides if that is how I chose to have my babies what business is it of his?! I no longer have an OB/GYNE and if I were to have another baby things would be different. I don't know if my insurance covers midwives.. I don't know if I am confident enough to go it UC... but I do know that things will be far far different. I would make sure my wishes are known and if need be find a doctor that would stick with them. I would never be induced again. I would request that I be able to labor my way.. shower, bath if available, and so on..

I have to say sorry for the length of my post but know that it is truly healing to get it all out on here. I didn't fully realise how much it bothered me to keep it all in.


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## roslyn (Aug 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Seriously? She seriously heard that come out of her mouth and didn't follow up with an abject apology?







: So is she one of the women you're talking about that wouldn't be willing to give up privilege? Most of the middle-class white women I know are engineers (I'm still in school, myself).

Apologize? Are you kidding me? I think she spent the rest of the night making 'jokes' about it. This is par for the course, which is why I try to talk to the other mommies as little as possible. I'm desperate for social interaction, but this is beyond annoying. I'm diligently trying to find another mommy group. Preferably one that's more diverse. I'm seriously beginning to think I'm the only minority SAHM in this entire area.

Definitely not willing to relinquish privilege. A member of the rapidly growing 'too posh to push clan,' she scheduled her last c/s to accomodate the family's annual 'winter vacation.'


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roslyn* 
Apologize? Are you kidding me? I think she spent the rest of the night making 'jokes' about it.

I thought it was bad enough that she'd make just the one stupid remark. I'm so sheltered (thank G-d). Surely there are some MDC mamas in AL?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Cigilteach





















I'm so sorry. I just now was able to finish reading your story.

MumofNic





















I'm so sorry. I still haven't been able to finish reading your story.

I keep having to stop reading and calm down, I just want to hurt everyone who hurt you.


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## roslyn (Aug 23, 2006)

Mum0f3, your story just about broke my heart. I used to work with young girls in foster care and would encounter that attitude and disrespect when I'd accompany them for their OB visits and labor. I was banned from one hospital here because they hollered at the girl for screaming in pain. I let the whole staff have it, and they told me I wouldn't be welcome at another birth. Of course, that's complete nonsense. These girls were in state custody and they couldn't keep me, as their social worker away from them. I simply can't comprehend the inhumanity of treating anyone, especially a young frightened girl this way. The stereotyping that goes on is horrendous. I know that if my insurance card said Medicaid instead of Blue Cross Blue Shield my standard of care would be horribly different. That makes me so very angry.


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## 2crazykids (Jun 19, 2005)

Oh my gosh this thread is making me cry so much! I still have yet to process the trauma and abuse I suffered from my first birth at the hands of my OB....I hope to be able to do that someday and maybe contribute here.

The fact that so many of these stories exist *here* is making me wonder how much this is considered normal standard practice for mainstream America?


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## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roslyn* 
Mum0f3, your story just about broke my heart. I used to work with young girls in foster care and would encounter that attitude and disrespect when I'd accompany them for their OB visits and labor. I was banned from one hospital here because they hollered at the girl for screaming in pain. I let the whole staff have it, and they told me I wouldn't be welcome at another birth. Of course, that's complete nonsense. These girls were in state custody and they couldn't keep me, as their social worker away from them. I simply can't comprehend the inhumanity of treating anyone, especially a young frightened girl this way. The stereotyping that goes on is horrendous. I know that if my insurance card said Medicaid instead of Blue Cross Blue Shield my standard of care would be horribly different. That makes me so very angry.

This is something I have fought with inside of myself for quite some time. But for years I have felt it was my "calling" (so to say) to be there for those young mama's that are/were in the same situation I was. I hate that all teen mothers are lumped into one category and it is never a good one. People *ass*umed because I was 15 that I would leave him with whoever and not be a mother. While my grandmother was super supportive and very helpful he was still MY responsibility and I took him with me just about everywhere.

I was still on state aid with ds2 but went to an actual doctor's with him the standard of care was better but still different. With ds3 same doctor but I had medical insurance at that point. They wanted to run this test and that with him and I actual got into a verbal argument with one of the doctors because I wouldn't do the MMS screening (is that the right one?). She asked me my reasons why and I having just read up on it in one of my books told her because at my age there wasa higher risk of false positives and there was truly no reasoning for it. I had 2 healthy babies before and she was appalled. She made me feel like a horrible person because I didn't want to know. That makes me think that on one hand you aren't given the option of that many tests when you are on medicaid but if you have insurance all the doctors see is $$$$.


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## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2crazykids* 
Oh my gosh this thread is making me cry so much! I still have yet to process the trauma and abuse I suffered from my first birth at the hands of my OB....I hope to be able to do that someday and maybe contribute here.

The fact that so many of these stories exist *here* is making me wonder how much this is considered normal standard practice for mainstream America?

It is the normal standard practice. We are kept uninformed and undereducated about birth and our bodies and that causes things like this to happen. I even felt that I was far more educated with my last there was lots of things I refused with him but that didn't change much in the end. It is sad.. and I wish it would change unfortunately most of our views on birthing and our bodies are not looked upon as kindly. Things are changing but not fast enough in my opinion.


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## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

sapphire_chan: you are super sweet.







Thankyou for the hugs and you know sometimes when I really think about it I wish I could go back and hurt them too but 2 wrongs don't make a right. Reading other women's birth stories and getting mine out like this is/was super healing.. if it could help someone else to know then that is the best I can do.


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## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

Wow, I want to give all of the mamas here great big







's!! I've never had to experience anything so awful, and it infuriates me that women are treated this way. Sorry if I sound so naive, but I really had no idea how bad it really is for some women.

I feel sick to my stomach now. I'm crying for you mamas, and I hope you can all get through this and heal. More







's!!!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roslyn* 
When I told one woman in my mommy group that all the women in my family had homebirths, she looked disgusted and asked, 'Where were y'all born, Africa? Why would anybody in a civilized country choose homebirth?'

So, she thinks having someone's fingers rammed up your vagina, being cut (be it a section or an episiotomy) unnecessarily (and, yes - I do know that sections are sometimes necessary), stuck with IV's, loaded with medications, and told when and what you can eat or drink (ie. NOTHING) is a hallmark of civilization and status? She thinks being treated this way is somehow superior? I think the fact that women actually believe this bunk is a definite indicator of the misogyny lurking in the obstetrical world and our birth culture.


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## JanetF (Oct 31, 2004)

Yes yes yes to it all. I see it all the time and I define it as misogyny. What else is it?! Women in the western world are abused and disenfranchised in most of our lives so it's hardly surprising that it happens to us in birth as well. The internalised misogyny we carry with us is the most effective patriarchal tool yet so even when we could say no or scream out or punch our rapist-in-a-hospital-gown, we don't because we fear rocking the boat or making people uncomfortable. I'm a really feisty feminist who had a birthrape in a hospy partly because I tried to work with the surgeons and thought that by meeting them half way they would also meet me. How naive can I be?! It's not about men CPs versus women CPs because I see plenty of MWs behave in similar ways, both large and small. It's how our entire society runs, based on a hatred for women and the control of our minds and bodies. There is no kudos in saying women's bodies work or for women to embrace how our bodies work. I get far more abuse for saying to women that their bodies work than surgeons get for telling them lies about how their bodies are defective. So then when you add in the aspect of commerce and how society profits in a strictly monetary sense from carving our bodies up and deadening us and our babies with drugs it's not surprising that a lot of people have a lot invested in maintaining that status quo.

In a patriarchy women are a slave class who are Not-Men; we are defective because we're not men. So surgeons protect us, and society, from our dangerous unruly female bodies by operating on us and stopping us from putting our bodies to powerful and effective use. How many women are told that birthing their babies vaginally will damage them? But like I said, there isn't much approval in standing up to it and speaking out against it so many of us choose to collude in our own oppression rather than risk the abuse attached to speaking out. How many of us have our partners' fears being the deciding factor in where and how we birth? How many of us would speak up mighty fast if that partner tried to stop us breastfeeding but are going to knuckle under if they want us to birth in the hospy even though we're terrified - and with good reason. Activism around breastfeeding is much stronger in NP/AP communities and I believe it's because bf is perceived as about babies so we can go to town for what we know is true and safest for them. Birth is (ironically enough knowing how babies suffer in hospitals) perceived as about women so we don't take a stand and demand appropriately evidenced care or that our partners and families support us in our desire to birth without unnecessary intervention. When we say we want to birth at home because it's well evidenced and demonstrably safer we're told we're selfish and putting our experience ahead of our babies'.

No shortage of thought on this subject here


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## roslyn (Aug 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
So, she thinks having someone's fingers rammed up your vagina, being cut (be it a section or an episiotomy) unnecessarily (and, yes - I do know that sections are sometimes necessary), stuck with IV's, loaded with medications, and told when and what you can eat or drink (ie. NOTHING) is a hallmark of civilization and status? She thinks being treated this way is somehow superior? I think the fact that women actually believe this bunk is a definite indicator of the misogyny lurking in the obstetrical world and our birth culture.

Its pretty scary when you think about it. It a status symbol. The more interventions you have the more important you are. They sit around and talk about these horrific births as if they're designer handbags or something. They try to one-up each other the same way. Someday I've got to write a book about it. Its absolutely mind-boggling.

I referred one of my dh's friends wife to my OB because he's so cool and non-interventionist. She didn't like him because he 'kept asking her what she thought. A doctor should tell her what to do.' I'm still agog at this one! That's what I like about my doctor, he listens to me and gives me options, but ultimately the decision is MINE.


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## Cigilteach (Sep 8, 2006)

deleted


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## kalisis (Jan 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 

My other experience that is worth noting doesn't have to do with birth but women's care. I had gone to see a nurse practitioner to... I guess to have a pap, and that evolved into the whole exam including a breast exam. She was very abrupt and sort of snorted when she found I'd had my babies at home. She mauled my breasts (so that I ended up with an infection) then asked what birth control we were using which I was kind of taken aback by, because really, if I wanted to talk to her about it wouldn't I bring it up? It felt kind of intrusive and condescending, like she needed to cover all the bases for my sake, it's her job to make sure I'm thinking about these things, you know. I should have just said that I had no concerns or needs regarding that but she was really into the "I am the expert you are the patient" mentality and I was too cowed to assert myself. So I simply answered, said we were using condoms. She said, in this very condescending tone, "well you can't do that forever. You're going to be fertile for a long time and you need to think about more reliable methods of contraception." !!! Here I am, an adult woman, and she's lecturing me! I wouldn't set foot in her office again if she were the last pap smearer left on earth. But I should have written a letter. Not that it would have done any good, probably, but I still should have.

I know you're wanting to talk about birth specifically, but this brought up something that happened to me when I first moved to the state where live now.

I needed my annual pap and used the GYN recommended by the primary care physician we had picked. I was young, 22 maybe. So, I go into the office, fill out all the paperwork and then the nurse comes to get me. She weighs me in the public hallway and then starts discussing my answers with me there also. She gets to the part of the questionnaire that asked about BC. I had put none b/c altho we were doing NFP, we weren't completely on board with it yet and it just wasn't worth getting into; I knew that much. So, in the public hallway, she says really loudly, "So, you don't use any BC?" in that accusatory, condescending voice. And I say, "No, I'm in a committed relationship and we are actually thinking about starting a family soon." She says in the most horrified voice ever, "Well, committed or not, that's no guarantee you won't catch something from him and we really need to get you on some BC pills. I'll make sure to tell the Dr. to give you a scrip for them." I guess it doesn't sound so bad now in retrospect, but I was humiliated. It was done in a public hallway with people walking by and then she doesn't even know me, this was the first time I'd been to that office, nor did she know my partner/DH. And how dare she make any judgements about how we're handling starting a family. I never went back and when I changed the name with my insurance, I gave them an earful. I should have written a letter to the office tho and now I wish I had.

Also, something that I always think about WRT women's healthcare. My grandmother fell ill several years ago (I was pg with DS at the time) and spent nearly a year in and out of various hospitals. At one point, I was the only family member staying with her and boy, did the drs treat us like we were lower than scum. First off, you're stuck in a hospital all day with no access to any kind of medical information; you only get what the drs tell you. And I'm not stupid; I know I'm only getting what they want me to know. Even when I would ask questions, they'd treat me with a "how dare she question me" attitude. Then, I was pg and I look young anyway, so they wrote me off as a hysterical, non-thinking pregnant girl, like I lost my brain when sperm met egg. Then, this dr wanted to do a spinal tap on my 80 year old grandmother, who looked absolutely terrified at the prospect. He says to her, "Dear, it's not so bad. Thousands of women choose this route over the pain of childbirth every day. Wouldn't you have wanted that option when you gave birth to your sons?" Well first off, I was fully informed as to the risks of spinal procedures (having done my research on epidurals already) and my grandmother never gave birth - my dad and uncle are adopted. So, it was just wrong on so many levels. Anyway, I told him we weren't going to agree to that procedure yet, that I needed to research it, and he tells me he's going to schedule it anyway b/c he's sure that I'll come to my senses or something like that. I go to my hotel, do some research, realize he's a complete a$$ and go in the next day and cancel the procedure. He comes in in all his glory and tells me that unless we agree to this particular procedure (which he wanted to do for his research grant purposes, NOT for my grandmother's health) he will drop us as patients. That time, I had my voice and told him he'd better fill out the forms for a transfer because I was moving my grandmother that day. He was stunned. And then it turned into this whole other thing, but the point of that big long story is that we were bullied, treated like idiots and then threatened. When my dad and uncle showed up, that dr was completely kind and patient with them and very apologetic that we hadn't agreed to the procedure or he wouldn't have had to file those transfer forms.







:

That experience solidified my resolve never to have my babies in the hospital.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anniej* 
"Well, committed or not, that's no guarantee you won't catch something from him and we really need to get you on some BC pills. I'll make sure to tell the Dr. to give you a scrip for them."

To make it even worse, the only thing BC pills keep you from "catching" is pregnancy.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Somebody explain to me again why the role of doulas changed?

JanetF, while some women don't scream and punch because they don't want to make other people uncomfortable, some women don't scream because they hope that they will be hurt less if they cooperate, if they are "good patients", some women don't punch because they don't want to be arrested in the middle of labor, and then there are the women who are simply so shocked that they *can't* do anything.

As shown by AnnieJ's story misogyny in healthcare isn't limited to birth. One of the reasons heart disease is the top killer of women is that the symptoms are ignored in women (particularly minority women).

And then there's the tendency to assign all problems below the waist to the uterus.


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## JanetF (Oct 31, 2004)

I agree, there's a whole gamut of responses for a heap of different reasons. I sometimes suspect a form of Stockholm Syndrome to be at play.


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## cjanelles (Oct 22, 2005)

I was just screwed from the start when I went into the hospital to give birth to my second child.

I was 19 years old and putting the baby up for adoption. My water had broken at home, so I was admitted as soon as I showed up at the hospital.

I labored for several hours, repeatedly asking for an epidural or some kind of pain medication...I was flatly refused any meds because, and I'm quoting here, my doctor said, "You got yourself into this mess, you need to feel every bit of it before you just give this baby away."

That is only a smidgen of the heartless things the doctor said to me, but I can't remember most of them.

At the time I was actively pushing, there were no less than 10 medical personel in the room...most of them, students.

I was already shamed and embarassed to be having a baby that I couldn't keep...I didn't have the backbone to insist on anything. I never saw the baby. I wasn't given the opportunity to see her. I had to ask--repeatedly--to be told what sex she was.

No, this wasn't 1955...it was 1995.

My other two childrens' births were very fast and easy, and I can't say I have any complaints about my treatment per se...except for the fact that no one believed me when I said I was in active labor with my daughter...but that's a different story.

I did, however write a letter of complaint to the chief of staff regarding my 2nd child's delivery. Of course, I never got a response...but at least I wrote it.


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## Cigilteach (Sep 8, 2006)

deleted


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cjanelles* 
I labored for several hours, repeatedly asking for an epidural or some kind of pain medication...I was flatly refused any meds because, and I'm quoting here, my doctor said, "You got yourself into this mess, you need to feel every bit of it before you just give this baby away."

I just read somewhere about this happening to a young woman recently. The doctor is being sued. I am so sorry this happened to you. This kind of thing makes me sick to my stomach.


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## Calliope (May 24, 2005)

A couple of my experiences with OB/GYNs may be relevant to this topic.

The first isn't about birth though. When I was in my mid twenties I went to this one GYN for a while, who, everytime he was about to give me a pap smear would have forgotten something he needed (swabs, gloves, etc.) and would have to go walkabout to find it. Mind you, he would only realize this when I was naked from the waist down, on my back with my feet in the plastic stirrups and a big metal clamp (whatever that's called) holding my vagina open. He would be gone for over 5 minutes (a couple of times I heard him having conversations with colleagues in the corridor while I was lying there) which seems like a heck of a long time when you're lying with a metal clamp in your vagina and can't go anywhere. As far as I can remember this happened every time I went to him for a smear. When I moved away from the area (which is why I stopped going to him, apparently the old-me didn't see anything wrong with the way I was being treated) my new GYN had heard of him and said he was very well respected in the profession.

My 2nd experience was with this new OB/GYN and is the all-too-familiar story of the routine episiotomy. Even though I had told him at several appointments that I didn't want to be cut - and he patted my hand paternally and reassured me that he would never do that unless absolutely necessary - when I was dilated to 10 but had not yet pushed even once he cut me a huge episiotomy. Sex hurt for 2 years afterwards. :-(

Why does hardly anyone complain? Why didn't I complain or even think there was anything wrong with these experiences until years later when my awareness had been raised by sites like this one? I'm a strong woman, confident, assertive in my career, able to identify misogyny in every other aspect of my life. I have never taken any crap from male colleagues or my husband. Yet the old-me (a typical woman of my generation) took this treatment without complaint.

There has to be some consciousness-raising with regard to this topic. I'm glad it's being discussed here, but it needs to be heard by everyday women (am avoiding using the word mainstream, which I hate) who wouldn't normally frequent sites like this. Most women (including, alarmingly, female OB/GYNs) have internalised this crap for far too long and now it has become accepted.

I have a book recommendation for the OP. "Reclaiming Our Health" by John Robbins. Parts one and two are about patriarchal medicine. He gives some outrageous accounts of misogyny in Gynaecology, it's worth a read!


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

wanna see Misogyny?

Go to

http://www.ob-gyn.net

Read the forum archives and have a bucket handy...you'll need it to puke in


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

I am so sorry for all of you with such horrible experiences.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

love to all of us. may our daughters be blessed enough to birth their children in a healthier atmosphere than we have.


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## laprettygurl (Dec 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114* 
wanna see Misogyny?

Go to

http://www.ob-gyn.net

Read the forum archives and have a bucket handy...you'll need it to puke in


www.obgyn.net.







and yeah, have a bucket handy.


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## caned & able (Dec 8, 2005)

Quote:

Oh boy. I have to say, as a feminist, I thought I knew what misogyny looked like. Then I got pregnant.
Yes, and unfortunately, most feminists, in my opinion, have never had a child and never will. That is why there is so little activism in the pregnancy/delivery/postpartum political arena.

Mothers have been left out in the cold by the feminist movement. Read feminist Naomi Wolfe's book, Misconceptions, and decide for yourself. She herself succumbed to surgical birth twice even after meeting with Ina Mae Gaskin.


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## caned & able (Dec 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
So, she thinks having someone's fingers rammed up your vagina, being cut ... unnecessarily ..., stuck with IV's, loaded with medications, and told when and what you can eat or drink ... is a hallmark of civilization and status?

YES!


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## Cigilteach (Sep 8, 2006)

deleted


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## Cigilteach (Sep 8, 2006)

oops double posted.


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## cfiddlinmama (May 9, 2006)

I just want to second what pp have said about it not just being men. I had two different CNMs for my sons' births. The first one abused me so badly. She was horrible. I don't want to go into detail, but she acted just like the horrible OBs I've heard about, even though she was nice for prenatal visits. I was 17 with my second child so that probably had something to do with. Condencending, she even had the nerve to tell me she used to do homebirths (my first was born at home) but she realized hospital births were safer so she quit doing them. I'm Catholic so artificial birth control is out, but she hounded me for half an hour about it. I get so angry when I think about how she treated me. The second CNM, although much nicer, stripped my membranes at 37 weeks without asking or informing me. I went into labor 2 days later. When I realized what she did I was horrified. How dare she! She was pretty good during the birth though. I haven't experienced the horror stories here, but I can relate to feeling of being powerless and just letting them do it to you.

I went to a nurse practitioner gyn (on an AirForce base) for pap - she ended up doing the whole routine - harsh breast exam etc. She stuck her finger in my vagina and told me to squeeze. She said my pelvic floor muscles were so bad I would have my bladder fall out by the time I was 30. They aren't bad at all, I've never peed myself or anything. I do kegels all the time.... She gave me the bc talk even though I told her it was against my religion. She was condencending and rude. She had a horrible reputation. I've had preterm labor twice and the male ob's I've seen have treated me like an idiot. It's so frustrating. So while my experiences haven't been *that* bad, they were still a violation and it is unthinkable that such things go on all the time and hardly anybody does anything, because we are just good little patients. I'd like to think I wouldn't allow myself to be treated like that again. Hopefully I've learned my lesson. Thank you all for sharing your stories. I would like to refer people to this thread who think bad things don't happen in hospitals anymore.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caned & able* 
Yes, and unfortunately, most feminists, in my opinion, have never had a child and never will.

I have to disagree with this as well. I think we're well past the days when women think they can't be feminists and moms. Personally, I proudly label myself a feminist (as does my own mom, for that matter) and so do many, many of the moms I know.


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## JanetF (Oct 31, 2004)

Radical feminist SAHM here, hi


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cfiddlinmama* 
So while my experiences haven't been *that* bad...

And yet it's by treating women in a manner that's not "that bad" that careproviders come to have the sort of callous disregard that will permit them to committ the atrocities. It may not be "that bad" in an of itself (although icky as anything for you and I have said a small prayer that you'll find someone respectful) but it is symptomatic.


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## Herausgeber (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cigilteach* 
Oh, I beg to differ, most feminists I know have children and I know a lot of feminists. Even the most "radical" of them get around to having babies eventually







.

I also know quite a few women who were led to feminism after what they experienced when birthing. It took that experience for them to really "get it".

I, too, think there should be a much stronger movement within feminism regarding birth rights but that doesn't mean those who identify themselves as feminists are not having babies. They are. I'm just one of them.

J

Yes. Most of the feminists I know are mothers or plan to be. I think there is an awareness within feminist circles of how anti-woman a lot of the practices surrounding pregnancy and birth are, as well as concern about discrimination against mothers. But, like most of the feminist movement right now, these issues aren't getting much traction in the general public sphere.

My grandmother even told me once that unlike men, who tend to "mellow" and become more conservative as they age, women tend to do the opposite. And childbirth and mothering is often what really radicalizes them.


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## caned & able (Dec 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
I have to disagree with this as well. I think we're well past the days when women think they can't be feminists and moms. Personally, I proudly label myself a feminist (as does my own mom, for that matter) and so do many, many of the moms I know.


This has been *my* experience. Do not discount me. I dropped my membership in NOW because there is no activism by that organization for women's health with regards to natural childbirth, unnecessary hysterectomies, prophylactic mastectomies, or dangerous birth control methods,
Warning :: Spoiler Ahead! Highlight to read message!

outside of keeping abortion legal.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caned & able* 
This has been *my* experience. Do not discount me. I dropped my membership in NOW because there is no activism by that organization for women's health with regards to natural childbirth, unnecessary hysterectomies, prophylactic mastectomies, or dangerous birth control methods,

I'm not discounting your experience--just pointing out that it hasn't been mine (or that of many others on this board). I do agree with you that there is a often a tense relationship between the "feminist establishment" and mother's issues--but I think the reasons for that are far more complicated (particulary wrt the history of the feminist movement in this country) than just "feminists don't have babies."


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## caned & able (Dec 8, 2005)

My experience has been that women I went to college and grad school with and with whom I work in my field of expertise do not have children and have made rude comments to me about being a mother with more than one or two children.

Reading MS magazine also leaves me out in the cold.

Women are often their own worst enemies.


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

I felt so powerless when it came to my son's birth, and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I'm military and so were the OBs I saw. I didn't feel I could stand up to them because they were Majors and I was only a Senior Airman. I tried - when I found out he was breech, the doctor immediately said C-section. I said "I'd still prefer a vaginal birth." He immediately said "No doctor here will do a breech vaginally, especially for a first-time mom." I shut up. At the next appointment (different doctor), I brought it up again. She said "The only way we'd do a breech vaginally is if it was a mom of five that came in with the baby hanging out of her." Again, I shut up. At my 37-week appointment, we found out he was still breech and the OB scheduled a version - but not until 39 weeks (when the baby's usually too big to turn anyway). She asked me if I wanted to do the C-section right away if we couldn't turn him, or if I wanted to wait till I went into labor. I guess that was the point I accepted the fact that I was having a C/S.

The next day, my water broke. I wasn't sure if it had broken, so I went to the clinic to be checked. Without even looking at me, the doctor started ranting about pregnant women peeing on themselves and thinking their water broke. he checked me and said I was at 5cm and sent me to the hospital. He said I should go straight there before the baby's feet fell out (he was NOT footling). I followed orders and went to the hospital for my C-section. When I was cleaned prior to the insertion of the catheter, I said ouch because the nurse was so rough and I have vestibulitis, and she MOCKED me, saying "That was just the cleaning wipe!" in a condescending tone. I asked for the curtain to be lowered, but was refused. I wasn't told what was going on, but at least my arms weren't strapped down. I had to tell the anesthesiologist twice that I couldn't breathe before he even looked at me, then all he did was put oxygen in my nose.

DS had to be bagged to breathe. He was wrapped up and handed to his dad. I got to see him for just a second, before he was taken to the step-down nursery and put under an Oxihood because he was grunting. As she walked out of the door, the nurse asked me if I wanted DS circumcised. If I had said yes, I have no doubt it would have happened then and there, before I got to nurse him or hold him, and before he was an hour old. I was taken to see him on the way to recovery, but I had to leave after a minute because it was so hot in there I was getting nauseated. DS's dad left to buy a camcorder and I went to recovery where I vomited alone for four hours.

Later that night, the nurse helped me pump my colostrum. She said she'd cup-feed him so he wouldn't get nipple confusion. She was so sweet and supportive that I was shocked when I got my records a year later and found out she'd also been cup-feeding him Similac without my permission. No wonder he was sleepy and not interested in latching when I finally got to nurse him - he was full!

I was forced to stay in bed all night with inflatable things on my legs. I couldn't sleep because my legs were so sweaty and itchy. After asking several times, I finally badgered one of the nurses into unstrapping my legs for a few minutes. I kept trying to lift my legs so air could get to the undersides, but she kept pushing them back down.

When I finally got to go see DS, I found out the nursery nurses hated me. I refused to let them give him a pacifier, which made one nurse whine about how long he took to settle down after I left after each night nurse. I forced them to call me every time he got fussy so I could come down and nurse him instead of letting them give him a pacifier or a bottle.

The day before we left, the pediatrician asked if I wanted DS circumcised. I said no and he said "Yeah, it's unnecessary, but I don't try to discourage parents from getting it done, because it's a procedure and I LIKE doing procedures!" Word for word what he said. My jaw hit the floor and I couldn't even respond. DS was NEVER left alone with that man!

ETA: The kicker to this whole thing was that I had been planning a UC. I wasn't really comfortable doing a breech UC for my first and I agreed to birth at the hospital if the baby remained breech. He did and I allowed myself to be bullied into an unnecessary C-section.

So that's my birth saga. That's just one example of what I've had to deal with. I endured four years of excruciatingly painful vaginal exams, rude questions, and rudeness before I could get a doctor to believe that I had vestibulitis. I was repeatedly told that it was all in my head, that I just wasn't using enough lube, or I wasn't aroused enough, or I might not love my husband, or I might not be sexually attracted to him. Most of this came from women, by the way. It took me two years of infertility and five years of symptoms before I could convince a doctor that I had PCOS. I'm just now being treated for it, seven years after my symptoms first appeared.

It's stories like these that make me even more determined to be a midwife. I will fight tooth and nail for the women in my care. I will treat them with respect and dignity and I will do everything in my power to give them the birth experience they deserve.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

(Speaking of systematic misogyny....)


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## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

Hugs mum of 3 nic.
I am from Freeport.
I reccomend you read Birthing From Within By Pam England.
It is a very good book and I think you would benefit from looking into HB.
Pm me if you want details.
My signature link is my homebirth video.


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## Turkish Kate (Sep 2, 2006)

To the OP: Have you read _Perfect Motherhood_? It is an eye-opening and vivid description about how male medical "experts" have taken the authority and knowledge of child-rearing away from women and put it into their own "expert" hands.

For the rest of you, especially those who have shared their birth stories: I am so sorry that any woman has to go through this. Thank you for sharing, and hopefully your stories will teach other women to stand up for themselves and their babies.

One of the great disadvantages of the birth culture in the United States is that it is affecting other countries worldwide. The healthcare systems in other countries look to the US to set the tone and the standards of care and this is so patently obvious in maternity care. I live in Istanbul, Turkiye, where we had a choice of midwives and home birth ten years ago. Now, midwives have been forced out of the city and it is next to impossible to find someone to attend a homebirth. While midwives are still practicing in the more rural areas, they are viewed as substandard care-providers and are certainly not preferred. There is a definite push towards the "premium birth," the c-section under general anesthesia. It's only been in the last five years or so that epidural anesthesia has been used, but it must generally be requested for c-sections. Natural labors rarely occur in the middle- to upper-classes, with a 90% c-section rate. Breastfeeding is also on the decline, as it's seen to be more "fashionable," hence more American or Western to feed formula with bottles. Even the doctors buy into this warped view of childbirth by encouraging scheduled c-sections and discouraging breastfeeding. The American way of birth is truly infectious.


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## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

Quote:

It is an eye-opening and vivid description about how male medical "experts" have taken the authority and knowledge of child-rearing away from women and put it into their own "expert" hands.
I really think that is the issue in a nutshell. Supposedly women's bodies are defective during pregnancy, they don't know how to give birth or are physically unable to and they certainly can't breastfeed. But not to worry, the "experts" are standing by with all the necessary knowledge







And I agree that many women see having an induction on the day of their choosing with an epidural followed by a nice, long hospital stay is just the epitome of a priveleged birth.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Just subbing to read.

I've posted my birth story in many places here. Let's just say it wasn't what should have happened. At all.

All these stories make me realize how deep this lack of respect for birthing mothers really runs.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Has anyone read Birth as an American Rite of Passage by Robbie Davis-Floyd? If not, I would totally recommend it. I wish every woman could read this book.

I found this site when I was doing a search for the book above. I found it fascinating--I've not had time to look around, but I did read a few links from Birth and Violence. Very interesting stuff. I think the Healing section will be next on my list to read.


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## josybear (Jul 24, 2006)

when i first found out i was pg i went to an ob. i took dh. the ob never once looked me in the eye. he talked to dh. he would address me while looking at dh, even. 'ok, hop up on here and take your clothes off', then 'how long has it been since your last pap?.. NEVER???' then he stuck a cold, hard metal thing in me for no discernable reason. i asked what his c/section rate was and he said to dh 'never you mind about that'. then he told dh that i would have to get some blood taken for some tests and left the room.
we never went back.
my birth didn't go how i wanted, mostly because things got chaotic and i was out of my head with the pain. it was my doula's first birth. the mw knew what i wanted, but with that long and intense of a birth, i don't blame her for not remembering things.
but, uh, ob's. gross. here's a great ob quote (from that ob board, i'm having fun being p'd off at them right now.
"Just an observation, we are talking about Home Deliveries.

And, as you know, in my opinion those are for Pizzas only. "


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## phoebemommy (Mar 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caned & able* 
My experience has been that women I went to college and grad school with and with whom I work in my field of expertise do not have children and have made rude comments to me about being a mother with more than one or two children.

Reading MS magazine also leaves me out in the cold.

Women are often their own worst enemies.

I have a child-less friend who used to be an editor and writer at Ms. Magazine, and is all around well versed in feminism and feminist literature (at least the kind of stuff you read in a women's studies course). When I told her I'd discovered that obstetrics is, by and large, a crock, and that I'd had a homebirth, she said, "You know, it's funny how you don't know about something like that unless you get pregnant. Here I always thought obstetrics and hospitals were all fine and dandy, but they're a racket, just like anything else in the health care industry."

I don't want to assess whether or not most feminists know or care about childbirth, but I thought it was pretty telling that my Ms. Mag friend, who I go to whenever I need advice about feminist concepts, had simply never even encountered this problem of misogyny and birth. Robbie Davis-Floyd, Henci Goer, Ina May Gaskin, Michel Odent, etc. just aren't in the feminist literary canon. They should be, though.


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## Herausgeber (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
Has anyone read Birth as an American Rite of Passage by Robbie Davis-Floyd? If not, I would totally recommend it. I wish every woman could read this book.

I found this site when I was doing a search for the book above. I found it fascinating--I've not had time to look around, but I did read a few links from Birth and Violence. Very interesting stuff. I think the Healing section will be next on my list to read.










This book was full of a-ha moments for me. Loved it. And had a loooong conversation with one of my midwives (a fellow feminist) about it.

The misogyny in birth culture just runs so deep it's hard for even a lot of feminists to see it, I think.


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## intorainbowz (Aug 16, 2006)

Op...

I don't know if you want to hear of mysogny after birth, but I was abused in the NICU.

NAK sorry for the spelling errors.


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## Belle (Feb 6, 2005)

My experience was not horribly abusive but it suggests that care providers do not have faith in a women's body.

My first paps as a teenager were done by a CNM. They were very painful, but I didn't know any better. I thought they were just par for the course.

Later I changed insurance providers so I saw a female GP. Her exams were excruciatingly painful. I always bled afterwards and had such severe cramping that I couldn't drive myself home afterwards. I always had to have my dh drive me home.

On one such visit to her she mentioned that I had a small pelvis. She got out the smaller speculum and asked me if I was ever going to have any children. I told her "yes, eventually" She frowned and said a very non-reassuring "oh" That visit would stress me out needlessly until my dd was born.

When I got pregnant my GP refered me to a very kindly and grandfatherly OB. I have to say that he is the sweetest doctor I have ever met. I won't return to him for pregnancies in the future because he is too medical, but I think that he does respect his patients and is very kind. I have no problem returning to him for GYN Care. My dh saw his first pap when I saw this OB and he was horrified by the procedure. I told him that Dr. S. was more gentle than and female care provider that had ever done and exam on me. He speculated that it was because he was watching, but I digress. I never had any of the side effects after the exams that I had with my GP. I've never gone back to her since.

I got to see more of Dr. S's medical side later in pregnancy. He frowned when reading my birth plan and agreed to "let" me eat in labor but insisted on an IV. Later he suggested an induction because he would be out of town on my _Estimated_ due date. I expressed concern. He tried to reassure me that pitocin wasn't that bad. He said women just think its bad because they're already in the hospital when they're being induced so they're more stressed. I think that he may have been telling more truth than he realized by saying that women were more stressed in a hospital situation. But saying pitocin wasn't that bad was an outright lie.

The birth goddess smiled on me when I actually went into labor. I had an angel nurse who encouraged me to use the tub to labor in and did not push the issue of a rountine IV. I had a peaceful labor for a few hours in the tub and was progressing nicely.

When I got out of the tub my labor changed dramatically. The oncall OB showed up right about then and made me sign an AMA for not having an IV. She seemed nice enough and never raised her voice or said anything rude, but was not the picture of calm. I was 9.5 cm but apparently I wasn't progressing enough for her so I was pressured to have AROM. That didn't dilated me the last little bit so she manually dilated me. I was yelled at for grunting while pushing and for trying to take a breath before they were finished counting to ten. Then, ironically, I was given an oxygen mask when I complained of seeing stars. I was given a hep-lock while pushing and after that my both my heart rate and our dd's were 140 bpm. I was really stressed out. I could feel a rush of adrenaline though and my baby was born immediately. Her initial apgar was 6. I can't help but wonder if that was from oxygen deprivation from the stupid Valsalva pushing.

All in all it was not a bad experience. My nurses were all wonderful. I had a unmedicated birth and I was on a birth high for a few days. I was no longer afraid of my "small pelvis" and I no longer thought I needed to go to a hospital to birth. It wasn't until about a month afterwards that I began to dissect the birth and realize what all happened that was unnecessary. All I need at my future births are kind women like my nurses were.


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## 3-StarSystem (Oct 26, 2006)

Sorry, this is going to be long but it honestly feels good to get it out and if it helps the OP I'm all for it...

I had a combination of mistreatment during pregnancy, birth and afterwards, as well as later on when one of my sons started to have some health issues. (6mos. plus.)

I started my TTC/pregnancy with my GP. He also does babies and is one of the last GP's/family practitioners in my locale to do so. He was great when I was having some abdominal issues which were later found to be likely to be endometriosis. One of the only Dr's not to tell me it was all in my head and take me seriously etc. actually finding evidence of problems. He's very well loved and respected in my community.

I had no real intention of going with my GP for pregnancy/childbirth. I wanted to have midwives ever since my first pregnancy (Which I lost.) when I was 16. When I told my Dr. this, he called me AT HOME and proceeded to tell me that midwives were dangerous (I was planning a midwife attended hospital birth at that point.) and that he knew of many outcomes where a baby was harmed because of seeing a midwife and not a Dr. and that if I chose to go with a midwife for my pregnancy that I would be responsible for any harm coming to my baby because I chose midwifery care. Mind you where I live (BC, Canada.) midwifery is more than legal- it's also regulated and the cost is fully covered by the provincial medical plan.

He then fired me as a patient altogether with more threats about how I was choosing to harm my baby, and at about 10 weeks pregnant I switched to midwifery care. He also made it INCREDIBLY difficult for me to get my records even when the midwives repeatedly tried to get them.

Everyone, midwives and Dr. failed to realise that I was carrying twins. This was after numerous pelvic exams and measurements, as well as checking to hear the "heartbeat" with a doppler.

I feel my midwives ignored me when I mentioned that I was suffering from severe nausea. My concerns where taken very lightly even though I repeatedly brought up the fact that I was debilitatingly sick and I'd lost 20+ lbs. I was asked (By midwives.) if I ever had an eating disorder previously (NO!) and how I felt about gaining weight during pregnancy. I ran through the gamut of every single natural recommendation for the nausea that the midwives suggested with no results.

It was around that time that I found out I was having twins because I opted to have the triple marker screen. After an emerg ultrasound we found that we were indeed having twins at 17 weeks. I feel like the midwives again dismissed my concerns for nausea as normal etc. and even more normal since I was having twins. I was prescribed diclectin which made me feel very druggy and didn't help too much. I still was losing weight. I looked drastically different.

The midwives transferred me to shared care with an OB that they liked and I was told that he would be respectful of my wishes to birth as naturally as possible.

The majority of my pregnancy was pretty uneventful until the end except for the continued nausea and vomiting. It did not get better after 20 weeks, or even at 30 weeks when I started having problems.

I kept on having contractions and I repeatedly had to go to the hospital to be checked out. At that point the babies weren't measuring very well and they showed every single sign of twin to twin transfusion syndrome although I wasn't told a thing about it. I didn't find out until the very end until the new OB (The OB I'd been dealing with for some reason transferred me over to another OB in the practice entirely and to this day I don't know why.) took over and she was very high intervention oriented.

I was slowly gaining baby weight, but I can't count how many times I got chewed out by nurses in the hospital for not gaining enough weight for twins. (At the end I ended up about 15 lbs heavier than my pre-pregnancy weight.) I was repeatedly humiliated for not looking "big" enough for twins. I was made to feel every time that I went into the hospital that I was a burden, and at the end they (nurses) actually had bets going whether or not my labor was "real" this time or not. Joking or not it was hurtful when I was having legitimate contractions.

I was also suffering from more complications from my constant vomiting. I wore away the lining of my throat/esophagus and I was continually bleeding from the damage. I also hurt my teeth very badly but I didn't find this out until later when I saw my dentist. The midwives "couldn't" do anything to help with something like that and the Dr's in the practice would only prescribe Zantac because it was the "only" thing I could take (It wasn't. With this pregnancy I've been on Nexium which is in the same fetal drug risk category as Zantac.) that was safe, and I was told several times that it would go away with delivery and that I'd just have to wait it out. I was vomiting blood from swallowing it so often, my stools were black with blood, and I was rapidly becoming very anaemic. It went away with delivery all right (Actually a couple of weeks afterwards.) but I have permanent damage because I was left untreated. Of course now I know I had hypermesis, but nobody took me seriously and witin weeks of the babies being born I was 50lbs+ lighter than I was pre-pregnancy. This time when the same thing started happening I was very insistent on receiving care/demanding different drugs etc. and whaddaya know I've found something that works.

I feel like my concerns were repeatedly dismissed because I was 19 and I was having a high risk multiple pregnancy. I can't count how many times questions I had specifically related to the difference in my babies' growth was blown off. The Dr's gave me the impression that it was my fault for chossing midwifery and not knowing that it was twins soon enough etc. Actually, it was the original Dr that did all of the initial exams and everything and missed most of the signs.

I started having some high BP and swelling issues and showed signs of pre-eclampsia. I was admitted a couple of times to the hospital, but my midwives advocated for me to try bedrest at home which was luckily successful.

At the very end, the weight discrepancies between the babies and the problems they were having became pretty prominent. (I'm very bitter about this because if their TTTS was properly diagnosed and treated in Vancouver they could have done MUCH better. They're having lots of luck with TTTS and some new treatments at BC women and children's hospitals.) One of the babies was two pounds lighter than the other and was not moving. He failed numerous biophysical profiles and in a period of days he did not move from the same position on ultrasound.

I was 35 weeks, and the new OB wanted to do a c-section. I wanted to at least try an induced vaginal birth first because none of the problems baby A was having should affect the actual delivery especially if I consented to monitoring just in case. I remember a flurry of phone calls between the mideives the OB and myself because I was trying to find out whether or not I could at least attampt a vaginal birth. Eventually the midwives informed me that the OB consented, but only if I had an epidural line in and delivered in the OR in case of the need for emergency c-section. I didn't know too much about my rights at that point, but I thought that was my only option so I agreed. I thought I'd fought enough at that point based on what I knew which was so much more than most peopls assumed. We also ended up meeting with the OB at the hospital the night before my induction and were "jokingly" told by one of the nurses that they'd not had so much fuss over a Dr's recommendation since they had a lawyer give birth there. Ha-freaking-ha.

The next morning I was induced. The Dr. broke my water (I was having dilation for weeks beforehand.) and gave me several hours for labor to start on its own. I was not allowed to move from the bed, so of course labor didn't start with just the water breaking in such a short time frame. Then I was given pitocin on full because the previous attempt was "unsuccessful". Again, I was not allowed to move. The midwife was present during this time as a support person, but the OB I wasn't fond of was the one present. I had full monitoring at all times and was not allowed to move. Everything gets pretty hazy at this point. I found that I moved into a natural hypnotic state. I was having consistent contractions with no break and they were very severe. It took many many hours of my midwives advocating for me to get "permission" to try the shower to see if it helped me deal with the contractions naturally. At that point my contractions were so severe that I didn't want to move.

At that point I was offered drugs (Don't remember what, I know it was administered by mask.) to help with the pains. I actually had the presence of mind to ask about the potential consquences etc. and I was told that it didn't matter very much at this point because I was having an epidural at the end anyways and it would have worn off by then because I was taking so long. I accepted, only taking a couple of huffs before realising that it wasn't for me. I became quite loopy and refused further drugs because I was feeling so sleepy and disoriented. I felt so dehumanized at this point because nobody was talking to me, people kept on coming and going from the room and talking about me even though I was aware but nobody cared to tell me what was going on even when I asked.

I started feeling more done/pushy closer to the end but nobody believed me because I was still calm, they thought I was finally reacting to the pain. Turns out I was over 8 cms and ready to go to the OR and I'd yet to have the epi line in. So I was sitting there waiting for the anaesthesiologist before I could go to the OR and trying to slow my labor. The anaesthesiologist finally showed up and tried to get the line in. I say TRIED because she tried about 4-5 times to get the damn thing in. It wasn't my fault at all. I was holding perfectly still and curling my back perfectly. I was even asked to tell them if I was having a contraction so they could prepare/hold off. I remembering whispering that I was having them all the time and having one right now while she was trying to get it in. Nobody had known as I was managing the pain very well on my own, she (Anaesthesiologist.) didn't hear me and she asked what I said while I was concetrating and one of the nurses pretty much yelled "She said she's having one right now!"

The anaesthesiologist got the line "in" and we went into the OR. There were about 15 people in the room all in masks that I'd never seen before. After the babies were born the pediatrician came up to me in the nursery and started talking to me and I literally asked who she was because I had no clue who had been there.

I started pushing pretty much right away in the OR because I was finally allowed to. The OB was impatient because it wasn't going fast enough. The midwife's attendant was helping to tape the birth and the camera was shut off whenever I pooped or puked etc. when I'd said I wanted to record everything. Nobody listened when I said I had to have a bowel movement because I was told that I shouldn't be abel to feel it because of the epi. The anaesthesiologist kept on pestering me about my sensations and breaking my concentration so badly that I eventually said I couldn't feel it to shut her up and because I didn't want to have to get the line in with another five attempts because my back was already hamburger at the site. I could still feel everything. It never worked. I could feel the tearing of my pubic hair when the Dr was manipulating baby A into position and everything.
Baby A was wrenched from me via vacuum because he was having mild decels during contractions but he was recovering well so there was no real reason to use the vacuum. The pushing wasn't going fast enough for the OB so she used the vacuum.

Baby A was kept from us for about 20 mins because apparently he had too much of a hollow where his sternum is when he was breathing. Nobody listened to the fact that my husband has a very indented sternum and it's hereditary in his side of the family (My boys still have it to this day.) and it wasn't from breathing problems even though we told them. Eventually when he was "cleared" when they realised he was fine and we were right about his sternum we were allowed to hold him.

Then began the big fight. The Dr wanted to do an internal version to "guide" baby B into position. They truned up the epidural all the way for the version even though nobody listened to the fact that I could still feel everything at that point after I said I was "numb" (My fault I guess, although it could have worn off too.) although I still had full motion in my legs etc. The Dr's arm into me up to the elbow was the worst part of the birth by far. I felt every damn thing and held still like a good little girl.

There is nearly and hour and a half in between babies. My cervix started to swell (No $h*t! After having someone's ARM in my uterus after having a baby wrenched forcefully from me I certainly don't blame it!) and baby B was the big baby so it would be more work to push him out. Everything was looking good and he was doing well on the monitor so I refused the c-section the Dr. suggested because he (B) was taking too long. I was told that there was risk of the placenta detaching etc. but I counteracted with the fact that he was doing well on the monitors and he wouldn't have been if the placenta was detaching which of course it wasn't. I've also read more afterward that suggests that in some women it's very normal to have such "breaks" in between babies to ensure the safety of both mother and remaining babe and protect against exhaustion. We have the pissed off Dr. on video tapping her feet and hrumphing because it was taking too long and giving some major attitude because I'm taking "too long".

When B finally was coming the Dr decided to do a vacuum again with no legitimate indications of distress. She wrenched B from me when I wasn't having any contractions or pushing and I'm on video screeching that I wasn't having any contractions and for her to stop. She didn't, and I tore of course.

Baby B was fine. Same indented sternum only they listened to us this time.

I'd been bleeding heavily, I hemmorhaged, was given a shot of oytocin which helped but I wasn't given a transfusion which I later found out I should have had. I was severely anaemic and I look like a corpse on video. The nurse who cleaned me up after delivery (One of the only nurses I liked.) said that there was so much blood. To this day she remembers me for that reason.

I went to my room and the babies went to the nursery. I later found out even though I had a document specifically written up NOT to bottle feed or offer any artificial nipples that they were given bottles and preemie soothers. This happened a couple of other times even after I got angry about it and had the hospital LC tell the nurses not to as well.

I am either loved or hated by many of the nurses there. Many remember me and my strength and knowledge and take me seriously. Others treat me terribly because I dare to question and stick up for myself. It still affects me to this day when I've had to go in with this pregnancy.

After the birth the mistreatment continued. I was harassed by the nurses for saying no to visitors and I was repeatedly told that I could turn away the visiotrs myself and that they weren't the door service. I was screamed at by a nurse for accidentally putting a baby into the wrong cot at 3 am when I hadn't slept in 4 days. I was mocked by some other nurses by still having issues with the vomiting. I would vomit regularily around diaper times (And other times, but diapers did trigger a gag reflex.) and I was subjected to nasty comments when I asked someone to help me out so that I could keep my food/fenugreek pills down.

It was a terrible experience and it didn't stop there.

One of my sons (Baby A, the donor twin.) had problems and started having seizures at about 6 months. I wasn't taken very seriously. Was told it was normal and the full gamut of excuses even though they weren't febrile seizures. Then one day he woke up and was paralysed in his right side. He'd likely had a stroke, although we were told it was probably just a particularily bad seizure. We went to BC children's and again we were told it was normal etc. On a last minute whim they checked his heart and revealed a possible heart problem that likely cause a stroke. A lot of his problems were likely caused by his TTTS but to this day we're still having problems getting veen the pediatric neurologist to admit it because any info I bring to the table on TTTS is dismissed.

Later, the same baby was accidentally poisoned at a relatives house with morphine. (Long story.) My husband saved his life, but he found my baby blue and not breathing in the crib. We were told it was a prticularily bad seizure or brain bleed and it was dismissed at the local hospital. The CT scan operator refused to come in and we were told at a later date by the ER doc who was leaving that hospital to move east that this was one of the worst indicdences that he'd ever seen and it haunted him and he had to tell us what really happened. Nodoby told us what was going on. He was in a coma. We were accused of many, many things such as hurting him etc. but our ped showed up eventually and advocated for us. I was a young mom afterall who knew nothing so it MUST be my fault, but my ped had a great relationship with us and was a big supporter and has proved an asset in the ivestigations which followed.

We were flown to children's hospital and there I was yelled at by a Dr. in the ER for refusing a spinal tap to check for meningitis. He had no signs of meningitis and nobody was taking me seriously with his history of seizures. We didn't know it was morphine at that point either. I remember the ICU team fighting to get him to the ICU but the ER wouldn't "let" him go because they wanted the spinal tap done etc.

Eventually it was found to be morphine and I was lectured for my irreponsibility etc. when it was in no way shape or form my fault. (Long story.) He was given some anti-narcotics (Narcanol) and was fine.

I had severe PPD and PPP.

I checked myself into the hospital because I was suicidal at one point and I was literally mocked and told that the hospital wasn't a place for a vacation and I heard the nurses berating me amongst themselves for my trying to get away from my kids etc.

I'm guessing the same nurses called our equivalent of CPS, because a few weeks after that I was investigated for the morphine incident although it had occurred a year previously and there was no concern about my involvement at that time when I'd eventually shown that I wasn't present/accountable for the actual poisoning.

Every time I go into the ER I get "looks" from the same nurses, and I've encountered a toxic situation with the L&D nurses and some of the OB's because I have a "reputation" after my experience with the birth which has unfortunately made my attempt to be a birth Doula pretty much impossible. I advocated for myself and my clients are assumed to be pushed around by me, that "crazy girl" who dared to take a stand in her own care although I've never brought any of my own issues to the table. My clients were treated differently I believe because of me so I stopped.

I'm sorry this is so long, but with gossip from my birth being what it is it transferred to all aspects of my children's medical care (IE CPS being called because my DS had bruises even though it was a well known fact that he was on bloodthinners for his stroke.) and beyond so I think it's somewhat relevant although this is definitely the simplified version.


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## 3-StarSystem (Oct 26, 2006)

I'm sorry, I just thought of some more things. I was TTC when I was 18 (Not up for debate IMO, Dh and I were well off and owned our own home) and I had several miscarriages in a row in a very short period of time. I was NEVER taken seriously. I'd had an abortion previously (Which was brought up being a catholic hospital.) and I can't count the times I've been told by Dr's in the ER when I was miscarrying that it was for the best and maybe I should take it as a sign that I was too young to have kids and that it was for the best. There was one REALLY bad Dr. in particular who was actually the same Dr that mocked me along with the nurses when I was suicidal after my boys.

Things like these compound over time in small communities where everyone gossips and the same caregivers are still there years later and still hold grudges against or opinions about patients.

Also, when I was at the children's hospital (Supposedly breastfeeding friendly.) I was told to wean or to let the nurses give my son formula because I couldn't stay in the ICU (Which was BS) to nurse him and since he was nearly one he could "handle it" and perhaps I was using it for my own emotional satisfaction. (Yeah, um... he'd just come out of a coma, not a good time to seperate from Mom or to start weaning. He's still terrified of that hospital, helicopters and ambulances and it was for MY emotional fulfillment???) We'd encountered difficulties with me being allowed to nurse in the same hospital when he had the stroke earlier as well because they
didn't have room for me, I was breastfeeding twins and wanted to keep my other baby with me so he could eat too, and they wouldn't feed me like they're REQUIRED to do according to BC medical. (Breastfeeding mothers with hospitalized children get their meals covered because it's essential to keep the mother well fed in order to care for her child but I was told that because it was a children's hospital they don't feed the parents which was a lie.) It was suggested that the nurses bottle feed him and when I refused I heard holy hell over that one because I was such a nuisance and I would be disturbing the other child/family in the room. (An older boy with a head injury.) They eventually cleared the room so we could stay because
I wouldn't leave and I insisted my DH stayed too so he could care for the
other twin when I went off with my sick baby for treatments. But we
acquired a reputation there nonetheless which affected our treatment with the morphine incident.


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## 3-StarSystem (Oct 26, 2006)

Double posted by accident.


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## Calliope (May 24, 2005)

It's so dreadfully sad and enfuriating to hear these stories of open disrespect and downright abuse.









With Obstetrics, though, the misogyny is so deeply engrained in the entire curriculum and so subconscious that its not just the doctors that are outwardly abusive and patronising that are the problem.

There are many who come across as warm, caring and respectful, but who still practice routine episiotomy and c-sections for dubious reasons, that will fear-monger, coerce and manipulate and then tell lies to cover their arses.

Now, if a doctor is going to cut me for no good reason I want some way of telling that this is going to happen. I want rudeness and disrespect at my first visit, I want to see horns and maybe a tail, so that I will KNOW to seek out another care-provider.

But in most cases it's not like this, it's the doctors with the great bed-side manners that make the over-medicalisation of childbirth at the expense of the mother's physical and psychological health an unstoppable phenomenon on an international level, because even if their births are far from ideal, women refuse to find fault with the care their OBs have given them and in many instances cover up for them and recommend them to their friends. Because they are such "a great guy/lady" they can get away with a hell of a lot. Stockholm syndrome, bigtime.

And I don't actually think these regular OBs that I'm describing are bad people, they are just blinded by their training and the system they are working in, none of their patients complain so for them all's well with the world and they never feel the need for a little introspection.


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## kathan12904 (Jun 23, 2006)

First, I'd like to say that I'm glad to see these long stories being shared. I hope there is a lot of healing taking place. Also, I want to add that I think this problem is attached to mysogyny, but not necessarily solely guided by that. Obviously being ignored in the hospital and mistreated during birth is a throwback to "hysteria" being a mental disease suffered by women. If any of you have ever read the short story "The Yellow Wallpaper," you will understand me better. Not long ago, women who were too strong-willed or outspoken were considered to have a problem and treated by extensive bedrest, hysterectomy surgery, and commitment to mental institutions. Another aspect of pregnancy is this connection to "disability." For some reason, having a baby inside you means you revert to being a minor yourself. I was interested in taking prenatal yoga or perhaps a prenatal water class, but opted against it because both things would cause me to need a doctor's note. A doctor's note!?! One woman was open-minded enough to allow a midwife's note instead, but I was outraged by the very idea. I think I know if I'm healthy enough to participate in this type of activity. I think I am capable of taking precautions against hurting myself or sending myself into labor. Outrageous!


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## IansMommy (Jun 14, 2005)

First, I want to say that I am crying reading some of your stories, and that mine doesn't seem so bad...but still, a sh!tty experience:

Misogyny...it started when we were TTC. We had been at it for about a year, and no pregnancy. I had just started to see a midwife, with a backup doc. This should have been the first red flag. She seemed nice/supportive enough. She was very warm, spent a long time during each visit...Then I had to see the backup doc, apparently, because he would be better able to help me with my year of infertility. When I sat down with him, I brought a year worth of cycle charts. I am pretty anal retentive...everything color coded. From all of my self-research, it was CLEAR that ovulation happened every month, but later than the norm. I ovulated on about day 30 or 35, with a 15 day luteal phase.
Misogyny: The doctor took a glance at my charts (if that much), and lectured me on the ineffectiveness of taking one's temp and charting cervical fluid...because it's really "more than a layperson can handle." He also told me that I was not ovulating because nothing happened on day 14.
He then told me that I needed a panel of bloodtests, and that we would start clomid when everything came back. I tried to back up my information and research. The midwife just sat there...not saying anything. All I thought was, "Please, dear woman...say something...are you a midwife...? Do you know ANYTHING about your own body?"
And of course, the answer was, no. And if she did, she didn't say anthing because he was her backup, and cash cow.
So, one MRI later (the doc was CONVINCED I had a pituitary tumor...which of course, I don't), and lots of heartache...we found out that my husband had next to no living sperm. Nice.
And of course, because I wasn't so knowledgeable at the time, I didn't leave the practice. Thanks to them, I had my first c-section there...which I was railroaded into (another long story that I just can't get into). The best part:
my medical records say that I opted for the c-section.

Thank you for this thread. I hope that we all have some healing through it.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathan12904* 
For some reason, having a baby inside you means you revert to being a minor yourself. I was interested in taking prenatal yoga or perhaps a prenatal water class, but opted against it because both things would cause me to need a doctor's note. A doctor's note!?! One woman was open-minded enough to allow a midwife's note instead, but I was outraged by the very idea. I think I know if I'm healthy enough to participate in this type of activity. I think I am capable of taking precautions against hurting myself or sending myself into labor. Outrageous!

Really?!? I've never heard of such a thing--that's insane. I took a prenatal yoga class, and certainly wasn't required to bring a note (although I did get lots of kudos from the instructor for planning an out-of-hospital birth).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IansMommy* 
The best part:
my medical records say that I opted for the c-section.

That is just so, so wrong.







I'm sorry.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
That is just so, so wrong.







I'm sorry.

What really gets to me is that this is at least the tenth case of this I've heard about. Many sections are pushed (or forced) on women, then put down in the records as patient choice.


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## IansMommy (Jun 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What really gets to me is that this is at least the tenth case of this I've heard about. Many sections are pushed (or forced) on women, then put down in the records as patient choice.

Exactly...my records read, "elective" in the area stating the reason for the section.
Ok...so ummm, doc and medwife calling me at home the night before and telling me the "grave consequences" of me not having a c section, with me crying on the phone and trying to delay....THAT's considered "elective?"

And by the way, my too big baby was 8 lbs, 15 oz, long and skinny, small head...not the 10 lbs estimated!


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## pampered_mom (Mar 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What really gets to me is that this is at least the tenth case of this I've heard about. Many sections are pushed (or forced) on women, then put down in the records as patient choice.









: - that'd be my experience! Again, the "huge" baby my ob warned me of ended up being bigger than some, but certainly not the gigantic one they made him out to seem. And did I mention my ob was a woman? Most of the misogyny I faced was always at the hand of women and the males that I encountered were much more supportive and helpful.


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## member234098 (Aug 3, 2002)

Quote:

It is an eye-opening and vivid description about how male medical "experts" have taken the authority and knowledge of child-rearing away from women and put it into their own "expert" hands.
I have been saying this about not only male ob/gyns, but about Skinner and Piaget for years.

Piaget was a Swiss (land-locked country?) marine biologist whose observations of children involved his own children done over the period of two weeks. I assume his wife or governess took care of them the rest of the seventeen years, fifty weeks.


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## ktbug (Jul 8, 2006)

First a big







to everyone who posted their stories. It's hard to come out and say what has happened to us, especially if you're saying it for the first time. It's also sometimes difficult to acknowledge that what happened to us is misogyny, it's wrong, it shouldn't have happened, and it's NOT OUR FAULT.

I don't want to go into my whole birth story here, but I'll recap some of the more relevant highlights:

-Met with an old friend at 33wks, to talk about life. His wife had a baby about 18mos ago. At the close of the conversation, he advises me, "Hey, don't be a hero. Take the drugs. Seriously."

-U/S at 39wks when I went to the hospital in a panic for decreased fetal movement; the u/s tech speculated out loud that the baby looked like he weighed 11 pounds and then proceeded to tell us about her 3rd degree tear and 75 stitches with her first baby. "you better hope you get a section, girl! labor sucks!"

-Telling the L&D nurse during my induction that I wanted to be informed every time she turned up the pitocin drip, to which her response was to turn the machine's indicator lights away from me. I mean, the whole conversation started because I told her I didn't want her to turn it up at all ... she says ok, well the Doc told me to, so let me just do this one little thing here *beep beep beep* and I'll go ask the doc if it's ok to let you go at this level. Of course, when she left, I asked DH to tell me what the number was on the drip indicator, and of course she had turned it up already.

-While trying to have the first of an eventual three epis/spinals, my field of vision went blurry, i got dizzy, my heart rate soared, and I could hear my pulse in my ears. I reported all these things to the anesthesiologist, who said nothing and continued pushing the needle. Then I heard an alarm go off behind me. I said, "what's that? what IS that?" and the same L&D nurse said, "don't worry about that, honey, it's just the machine that tells the doctors what's happening".









-the MW who caught my ds yanked on the cord to deliver my placenta. at least she showed it to me. and at least i was nursing ds at the time.

-I was railroaded and bullied into signing the consent form for circ. I told them numerous times during my hospital stay that I would not be consenting to circ, and that if my husband were to sign the consent form that would be the only way they could do it. They waited until they knew he was gone for a few hours, until I was at the height of postpartum hormones and out of my MIND on percocet, to come round and tell me it was the last thing they needed to do before they could sign off on my release, it's really no big deal, etc etc etc. That's still my biggest regret.

And I had it WAY better than most. The efm never picked up my contractions, which is why they kept pushing the pit level higher and higher even though I kept telling them, no, you're wrong, I'm CONTRACTING, I swear ... I was extremely lucky to have had my dh there with me, keeping me within myself enough to push ds out instead of giving up and taking the section, which is sooo what they wanted me to do. Oh, and I was a screamer ... and the one L&D nurse who tried to shut me up, let me tell you, she got an earful of the highest order of profane blasphemy. I'm not sure she even knew those words COULD go together.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *josybear* 
here's a great ob quote (from that ob board, i'm having fun being p'd off at them right now.
"Just an observation, we are talking about Home Deliveries.

And, as you know, in my opinion those are for Pizzas only. "

There is an OB in my area who has that as a bumpersticker on his car.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *josybear* 
here's a great ob quote (from that ob board, i'm having fun being p'd off at them right now.
"Just an observation, we are talking about Home Deliveries.

And, as you know, in my opinion those are for Pizzas only. "

You know, this made me







: when I first read it, but now that I've read the "delivery" thread, I actually agree with this statement. Only it's incomplete, the full quote should be:

Just an observation, we are talking about Home Deliveries.
And, as you know, in my opinion those are for Pizzas only,
Babies should arrive at home via BIRTH.


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## ^guest^ (Jul 2, 2005)

I couldn't read this thread and not reply. *hugs* and <3 for all of you who have suffered at the hands of misogyny.

Please don't discount your experiences as "not that bad". Some people may have more horrifying experiences than others, but any kind of behavior that degrades, physically or emotionally abuses, or purposely dismisses the legitimate concerns of an pregnant/laboring/post-partum mother, is still intolerable and unacceptable.

I think a lot of this behavior is allowed to continue because many woman are told it's "not that bad". They end up believing it, and don't even realize they have suffered abuse. They feel awful about it, harbor deep emotional scars over it, but feel completely incapable of expressing it or healing it, because to be so traumatized over something considered so status quo, they must be over-emotional, hormonal, or any other demoralizing adjective assigned to disenfranchised women, deprived of their human right to a natural, normal, happy, harmonious pregnancy and birth.

*climbs off the soapbox* sorry about that. Once I get going it's hard to stop


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Neoma* 
I couldn't read this thread and not reply. *hugs* and <3 for all of you who have suffered at the hands of misogyny.

*Please don't discount your experiences as "not that bad".* Some people may have more horrifying experiences than others, but any kind of behavior that degrades, physically or emotionally abuses, or purposely dismisses the legitimate concerns of an pregnant/laboring/post-partum mother, is still intolerable and unacceptable.

I think a lot of this behavior is allowed to continue because many woman are told it's "not that bad". They end up believing it, and don't even realize they have suffered abuse. They feel awful about it, harbor deep emotional scars over it, but feel completely incapable of expressing it or healing it, because to be so traumatized over something considered so status quo, they must be over-emotional, hormonal, or any other demoralizing adjective assigned to disenfranchised women, deprived of their human right to a natural, normal, happy, harmonious pregnancy and birth.

*climbs off the soapbox* sorry about that. Once I get going it's hard to stop









Thank you for saying that.








And it is so true. It took a long time for me to realize exactly how wrong it all was. I was told to just be happy I had a healthy baby. But the pain did not go away.

It makes me so sad to see so many other women being treated this way at a time that should be sacred. It is truly shameful.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Neoma* 
Please don't discount your experiences as "not that bad". Some people may have more horrifying experiences than others, but any kind of behavior that degrades, physically or emotionally abuses, or purposely dismisses the legitimate concerns of an pregnant/laboring/post-partum mother, is still intolerable and unacceptable.

Ah, yes, the "at least you have a healthy baby" approach...if that ain't misogyny, I don't know what is. Remember, YOUR experience doesn't count at all...only the baby matters.







:


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

OMG, I HATE being told "at least you have a healthy baby"! Like it doesn't matter WHAT happens to you as long as your child is reasonably healthy in the end.


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## Imvishta (Nov 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathan12904* 
Condescension (sp?) is the main issue I dealt with. My OB gave me the most rudimentary explainations and answers to my questions, often repeating information to me that I had just expressed my knowledge and understanding of in our conversation. It was like he wasn't even listening to me thoughts or concerns, just honing in on one word that I had used in order to present to me a stock answer that he had ready. When I started bringing up my desires for the birth, he was always smiling and nodding and supportive, but followed all that with "unless something goes terribly wrong" or "as long as that is still safe" Over all, he always spoke to me in a sing-songy voice like I was a preschooler.

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. Fortunately, my doctor spent a lot of time with me, and I felt very comforted. However, your post did remind me of the fact that I was sent a breastfeeding coach (in the hospital) who had never even had a child! I actually kind of felt sorry for her because I could tell she was nervous about the whole thing. We know how men feel about women medical professionals at all, much less dealing with something so specific to your own sex. I just feel that if they are going to have breastfeeding coaches who have never done so themselves they really need a lot of training in hands-on coaching because I'd already taken the class and read the articles and books myself!

Also, circa 1999 the American Medical Association did an in-house study, so to speak, which concluded that doctors are biased against women and minorities. Some were unaware of their bias, and some flat-out admitted it, saying that they felt women were too emtional and minorities would not follow-up with their care given. Those were, in general, the opinions expressed. And, it was the AMA reporting on their own members! I don't have time to find the study right now, nor write further on this topic, but it was no surprise to me. I just happened to have a good OB/GYN at the time of my pregnancy. I'll try to write more later...


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## deuxceleste (Aug 19, 2006)

You may be interested in "misconception" by naomi wolf


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

The worst misogyny I experienced during my first birth oddly enough came from a female nurse who'd obviously been a victim of it herself. She was mean to me the entire time, telling my family that I was faking my pain and I "couldn't be in that much pain, I've had three kids and I didn't act like that, etc..." When it came time for me to push, she threw my right leg back and injured my spine. When we moved to Arizona and I found a new chiropractor, they X-rayed me and found that I had a slipped disk that was causing me excruciating pain. That injury was not present until that nurse jammed my leg back. I'm guessing that nurse had just been around so many nasty, careless doctors that she had become numb to the emotions and feelings of real people. I will never forget how cruel she was to me and my family. My OB at that time was "ok" but my ideas about childbirth and the power of women's bodies are radically different from his. And maybe this is a sexist thing of me to say, but I don't think men have any place in the birthing process other than the fathers of the babies who are there to support the moms. Men will never be pregnant, men will never experience labor. I don't care how many books you read and how many hours of classes you've taken in med school- men will NEVER understand pregnancy and birth the way I feel is necessary to be so intimately involved with it. My 2 cents.


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## phoebemommy (Mar 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Poot* 
And maybe this is a sexist thing of me to say, but I don't think men have any place in the birthing process other than the fathers of the babies who are there to support the moms. Men will never be pregnant, men will never experience labor. I don't care how many books you read and how many hours of classes you've taken in med school- men will NEVER understand pregnancy and birth the way I feel is necessary to be so intimately involved with it. My 2 cents.

I agree totally, but then I think of Michel Odent. He has done so many good things for the culture of birth. But I still agree with you, and I think Odent would even agree with you. I'm just thankful he's around -- reading his book Birth and Breastfeeding changed everything for me.

I'm so sorry to hear about your birth-back injury, btw! I'm no stranger to chiropractic woes, and if mine had been caused by a health care provider I'd be so angry.


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## intorainbowz (Aug 16, 2006)

MamaPoot, I am so sorry for your pain. I brought an awful memory back.

When we were undergoing testing for infertility I had to have a HSG test. Basically, reactive die is injected into your uterus and then xrayed to see what the die shows.

I had a very large septum in my uterus. Had the radiologist read the report from an earlier ultrasound, he would have known this. He had not read that report.

DH and I arrived for our appointment. We waited nearly 2 hours. I believe I was treated this way because I asked a couple of times when we would be seen. First they refuesed to have DH in the procedure. They said it was for xray concerns. LIE. ALL of my friends who had this procedure had their SOs in there.

When I got into the room, they had a tech and a trainee there. The way they had me lay, if the door was open, everyone in the hall could see my vagina/vulva. I complained about this, and was treated rather rudely by the trainer, who said that no one was out there anyway. It was freezing in there, and I asked for a blanket. Trainer said it's not that cold, trainee, who was so very kind and nice, brought me a blanket and a pillow, which was apprieciated as I again had to wait for the radiologist while lying on the very hard x-ray table. Finally he gets there. He gives me a bit of a lecture about needing to be patient for medical providers.

He inserts the ice cold speculum. Umm... I don't think this guy had been anywhere near a vagina in years, because he inserted the speclum rather painfully. He started the procedure. He inserted the sound into my uterus, and the pain began. He tried to insert the die, and I screamed and the sound slipped out. I had seen a heart shaped uterus on the screen, then the tech whipped the screen around. She also told me it did not hurt that bad, and that I should "be still." As there are no sturrips on xray tables, my feet were slipping all over the place.

At my request, because he had not gotten enough dye in to check my tubes, the procedure began again. Again awful pain. Basically he was jabbing the instruments and syringe into the septum. Had he read the report he would have known it was there. I again screamed, this time the pressure from him trying to inject dye into my deformed uterus shot the syringe out. I was crying, and tech again said, "that's what a contraction feels like, so hope you never go into labor" to someone who was there for infertility testing.

I could barely stand after that. Tech said I needed to hurry because they needed the room. I went to the bathroom to try to clean the blood and dye running from me with toilet paper. I needed a pad, and asked for one. Tech said that they don't have them and I should have been prepared. I was not on my period when the test occured. Trainee went and got me a panty liner from her locker and apologized that the liner was all she had. So I went home bleeding all over myself.

When I left, limping out, DH was shocked. He said I was pale and looked awful. He said I looked like I had just been tortured. He was right. I would have been so much happier if he had been there. He would have yelled at the tech for treating me that way.

I complained mightly to the midwife who was overseeing my care. I actually wrote a formal complaint to the clinic. Very shortly after that, I terminated my relationship with that clinic.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

HSG does hurt like hell, I presume like a contraction, which was what my doc also told me.

I've had the great fortune (sarcasm) of having had lots of invasive procedures in my life. I'm very stoic with pain, and typically have had medical personnel exclaim over how quiet I am, how calm I am, how well I tolerate pain, etc.

But when he injected that dye, I groaned and moaned. I didn't squirm away or yell to stop or otherwise impair the procedure, but as for the moaning I simply COULD NOT help it. It was very interesting to me, because I'd never experienced that before.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phoebemommy* 
I agree totally, but then I think of Michel Odent. He has done so many good things for the culture of birth. But I still agree with you, and I think Odent would even agree with you. I'm just thankful he's around -- reading his book Birth and Breastfeeding changed everything for me.

True true there are some saints out there. Dr Bradley, Dick-Read, all wonderful, caring men. Toddler trying to use bouncy seat as a diving board....


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phoebemommy* 
I agree totally, but then I think of Michel Odent. He has done so many good things for the culture of birth. But I still agree with you, and I think Odent would even agree with you.

Odent repeatedly suggests having only one motherly midwife who sits quietly in a corner. The key with Odent, as with all good practioners, is that he doesn't ask "what can I do to improve the outcome?" but rather "what can I not do to keep from damaging a perfect process?"


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