# So I wigged out at the Walmart greeter today...



## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

And I feel badly....kinda. My oldest daughter is 2.5 and VERY shy and likes her personal space. She was already upset because she lost her favorite binkie before we left for Walmart. As we were going inside the store she was still wimpering and the greeter, an older gentleman, said "Little girl would you like a sticker?" And she FLIPPED out, screamed, and grabbed my leg and buried her head in my butt (yeah, it was lovely) I smiled and said "No thank you." He insisted on giving my youngest a sticker, which she ate entirely (yes, she LOVES paper.) Anyway, my oldest was still shaky as we were doing the self-check out and all of a sudden she grabbed my legs again and shrieked...yep, the greeter was back. He said "You are still crying? You must be having a bad day. Let me give you a hug." He actually bent down to pry her from me and I stopped him dead in his tracks by yelling "Don't touch her and don't even talk to her. Please leave me alone NOW!" He stood up and said "I was just trying to do my job lady. He walked off and then I had a crowd of people staring at me, two girls screaming because they had never heard their mother yell like that before.







: Anyway, I feel terrible for yelling at him, but geez, could he NOT see she was scared to death of him? Sorry, rant over. I just had to get this off my chest.


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## ElaynesMom (May 24, 2008)

What a crappy situation. It is definitely not his job to hug small children he does not know. It is his job to greet people as they enter/ say goodbye as they leave. I'm not sure why some adults feel it is ok to hug/touch/invade personal space of children just because they are small. Chances are they wouldn't do the same to an adult. Perhaps you could send and email or something and let Walmart know why you do not find this acceptable.


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## SweetPotato (Apr 29, 2006)

I SO feel you! My dd is 3 and similary shy. The worst is in situations just like you described-- we're out somewhere and she's already upset about somehting, then some strange adult decides that they're going to be the "magical person who makes the little one smile"-- and it ALWAYS goes from bad to worse. Heck, it's bad enough when strangers look at her when she's in a mood, if an old man tried to actually touch her, I think she'd lose a gasket (or tell him off on her own!) It's always hard because I know that these people have good intentions, but it's still frustrating when they can't respect your word, as the child's MOTHER, for heaven's sake, that the kid does NOT like strangers messing with her!


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## Live~Laugh~Love (Dec 21, 2004)

What a terrible situation hon... WOW, handled well..


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

His job is to pry scared, crying children from their parents so he can "hug" them? Sounds like he needs a new job, or a better understanding of his job description. I am pretty sure I would have had the exact same reaction as you. Your poor little one.







:


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## Kaitnbugsmom (Dec 4, 2003)

that is not his job in any means and I would have had choice words with the manager on duty about it post haste. Being old is not an excuse for making up your own job requirements...


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I wonder if this particular Walmart greeter has some sort of disability himself that makes it hard for him to read other people's body languge.


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## thatblondegirl (Jan 16, 2008)

yup, i would have FREAKED out. do NOT touch my kid, especially if he's screaming bloody murder. awful.


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## Amam mam (Nov 7, 2008)

: I love your post.You just made my day. Don't worry too much about what happened I 'm sure you'll be laughing about it a week later it's still too fresh I guess. On the other side this walmart person seems pretty queer. Who keeps on approaching somebody who does want to be near you, in general? I think it's the first and right defensive instinct against an offense.
thanks for sharing


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## amnda527 (Aug 6, 2006)

Yikes! Yea, it isn't his job to walk over to the self checkout period! They stay at the door! At my walmart, the walk from the door to the self checkout is a good distance. Weird. I wouldn't feel bad for letting him know loud and clear to not touch you kid. If you were polite about it he wouldn't have been scared away and your daughter would never have been able to go to walmart again without a complete meltdown!


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

: I'm with you! Call the store manager and ask him to tell his greeters that hugging is not part of their job.

The only thing to (maybe) feel bad about is the harshness of your response to a man who WAS trying to be kind. Maybe you could have stepped between him and your child and said firmly, "I'm not sure why, but she is afraid of you. Please leave her alone." But I totally understand why you reacted the way you did!!


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I wonder if this particular Walmart greeter has some sort of disability himself that makes it hard for him to read other people's body languge.

yup....if I remember, some of the greeters at my local walmart appear to have some disabilities...possibly mental or cognitive. they are always nice, but perhaps don't have the same "stops" that respect boundaries as everyone might like.

xoe


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I wonder if this particular Walmart greeter has some sort of disability himself that makes it hard for him to read other people's body languge.

That was my thought-- but if so, the boss should have made it clear that you do NOT hug customers! Ever!


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Xoe* 
yup....if I remember, some of the greeters at my local walmart appear to have some disabilities...possibly mental or cognitive. they are always nice, but perhaps don't have the same "stops" that respect boundaries as everyone might like.

xoe

Yes, I have seen this, too. My fav. grocery store employs people with disabilites as some of the baggers who take the groceries out and load them into the car. I saw X three years ago pushing a cart with groceries and a small child inside (mother walking nearby); she, the cart, and the child were involved in a collision with a moving car. It was VERY scary. No one was hurt, but I decided right then that X (and, really, any other person) would not be pushing a cart with my children inside it. I have REALLY offended her, unfortunately, just by saying, "No thanks! I'll do it myself!" She walks away when I end up in her line.







It's *great* that the stores employ them, and I am happy to put up with some bruised apples, but I really think there should be a policy about pushing carts with children inside (and prob. against stranger WalMart greeters having physical contact with children. ick.)

To the OP, I think you did the right thing, definitely. I hope if I am ever in a situation like that that I take up for my DC in the same way!

ETA-- if he was just a sweet, possible disabled old man, it would seem more likely that he would be hurt by the yelling, not respond "just doing my job lady," iykwim.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

hum







:

Why would he hassle your kid as they are checking out? Hes a greeter, isn't that _on the way in?_

I really can't stand walmart. I don't know how you ladies shop there.


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## nikkiethridge (May 6, 2008)

That is just creeeepy. Ughhghghg.


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## Mokhwrar (Nov 4, 2008)

Aw, don't feel bad. I wouldn't have let him hug my kid either.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

don't feel bad-you were defending your child's personal space! i wouldve done the same thing!
i don't know about your WM, but the mgmt at mine is ok-i actually had an issue once about a very creepy check out guy that kept trying to touch dd, and the manager was all over herself trying to help me-she was a mother, too, and was very disturbed by what had happened-i felt like she handled my complaint well, and i never saw that guy again.


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## 2cutiekitties (Dec 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kriket* 

I really can't stand walmart. I don't know how you ladies shop there.









I hope the ones who shop there aren't also complaining about plastic and china, etc. No judgement, I just don't get it.







:

but I agree with calling and complaining!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Your poor dd! I have to deal with this all the time, too. My son is really terrified of people he doesn't know, and if they look at him, let alone talk to him, he really freaks out.

I spend a good deal of time defending him from well-meaning strangers. Sometimes they don't get it and really, really go too far! Yesterday we were at Kroger and the bagger wanted to give him some stickers. He won't take anything from a stranger, and he really dislikes stickers anyway. So at first he was hiding behind my legs, and she just wouldn't stop offering them to him! He was so upset that he made a break for it to get away from her, and then she actually chased him around in a circle trying to give him the stickers! He was panicking as I'm saying firmly "No thank you, no, he doesn't want them, PLEASE, NO..."

She finally looked up at me and the lightbulb came on when she saw me shaking my head. I suspect that she didn't speak English and didn't understand my refusal of the stickers. But geeze. Anyone should understand the body language of a frightened child.


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## MOMYS (Nov 5, 2008)

Your poor little girl! I think your instincts just took over. He is probably from a generation where not much thought is given to a child's whole being AND he probably deals with some parents who would think what he did was okay.... you know those parents who force their children to sit on Santa's lap for the photo, despite the fact that the poor child is petrified and crying!

I think I would have probably reacted in exactly the same way!


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## Purple Cat (Jun 8, 2008)

I would have went for his jugular vein if he tried to hug my screaming, frightened child. Then, I would have felt embarrassed, too, as everyone looked on. I'm trying to say I totally understand and validate the instinct to protect. I think its important for my children to see that I stand up for them and protect them in situations where others try to do things to them that I don't feel are appropriate. With that said, I would also then calm down and be talking to various Walmart managers about appropriate behavior and the need to educate greeters.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Perfect modeling for your kids. Now they know how to act if anyone tries to hug or touch them inappropriately, disability or no disability...it doesn't matter. Don't feel bad about not being polite.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Didn't read responses...








Go you Mama! I likely would have flipped on him too. That is just creepy having a total stranger tyring to hug your kids.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Your reaction was spot-on, and you don't have to feel bad, but feel REALLY GOOD knowing that you have what it takes to protect your kids even if it doesn't feel "civilized."

You're responsible for your kids, not the greeter's feelings. Even if the greeter had a disability that led to this interaction, it doesn't make what he did right. It doesn't matter if people think they are doing good, if they are not, you have a right to draw the line.

Sanford Strong (LA police officer who does safety seminars) says: "My safety first, your feelings second." That obviously extends to your kids' safety too.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
Sanford Strong (LA police officer who does safety seminars) says: "My safety first, your feelings second." That obviously extends to your kids' safety too.

Exactly, that's great advice!

Op, don't feel guilty you didn't do anything wrong. Forcing 'affection' on anyone is wrong and we all have the right to say "no".


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## ellemnop (May 10, 2008)

He tried to HUG your daughter? NOT HIS JOB, not his job at all. I wouldn't feel badly at all for the way that you reacted, Mama... I'd hav ebeen freaking out. Then again I don't like people to even touch DD.

Take care,
El


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Update: I called Walmart and after being transferred four times (yes FOUR times) I spoke with a management team member and told her my story. I remembered his name so that helped a lot and she did not seem surprised at all by the comments I made, which leads me to believe he has done this kind of thing before. He appeared NOT to be mentally or physically disabled, but as an RN I know looks can be deceiving. I made it clear I was not out to get the man fired but I wanted him to know what his boundaries are. She assured me she would "look into it" and get back to me. I also got her name and extension number and will call back in a couple days. I will not be shopping there again.


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## phoolove (Jul 18, 2008)

I shop at Wal-Mart sometimes, but I am still conscious of Issues with China and Plastic.

I always drive my car sometimes even though I have issues with the war in Iraq, and the mass consumption of fossil fuels.

I probably do lots of things that people don't or can't understand.

None of this however has anything to do with the greeter at Wal-Mart, although I am sorry that it happened.


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## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

Don't feel guilty for your reaction Mama. You did the right thing. Strangers are not allowed to hug my dc under any circumstance!! Strangers are not allowed to touch my child!!! That man sounds creepy!!!


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## theretohere (Nov 4, 2005)

Wow. I think you did the right thing.


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## KristyDi (Jun 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
Perfect modeling for your kids. Now they know how to act if anyone tries to hug or touch them inappropriately, disability or no disability...it doesn't matter. Don't feel bad about not being polite.

This is exactly what I thought. You showed your kids that it's ok to be rude when someone is scaring them or touching them in a way that is uncomfortable to them. That's a good thing.


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSMa* 
Didn't read responses...








Go you Mama! I likely would have flipped on him too. That is just creepy having a total stranger tyring to hug your kids.

I only read the first few responses but I'm with you and the other posters, like the one above.







In fact, I might even discuss it with the manager. That is way overstepping his job...hugging kids!

I'm a teacher and I get warned about the possible implications of hugging or touching kids in any way who I've formed a relationship with! This guy was clueless and creepy.

No one hugs my kids without my approval/permission! Good job!


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## milkmamamerina (Sep 29, 2008)

Quote:

"I was just trying to do my job lady.
yeah, his job is to pry small children away from their mothers. I'm pretty sure he could be fired for it or at least get a pretty strong reprimand. touching other peoples children is a pretty big no-no these days


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phoolove* 
I shop at Wal-Mart sometimes, but I am still conscious of Issues with China and Plastic.

I always drive my car sometimes even though I have issues with the war in Iraq, and the mass consumption of fossil fuels.

I probably do lots of things that people don't or can't understand.

None of this however has anything to do with the greeter at Wal-Mart, although I am sorry that it happened.

I totally agree with the above: I like your response to the previous poster's "not judging" comment better than what I was about to say.

OP --







You've handled it great -- you have nothing to feel bad about!


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i'm pretty sure 'hug distraught small children' is not in his job description. i think 'wave to costumer, offer sticker' is more like it. you absolutely did the right thing! teaching your children to react loudly and firmly when someone oversteps boundaries like that is exactly what you want to do!! good for you!


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## AidansMommy1012 (Jan 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I totally agree with the above: I like your response to the previous poster's "not judging" comment better than what I was about to say.

OP --







You've handled it great -- you have nothing to feel bad about!









Not to mention that many people are in a financial situation that leaves no choice but to shop at the place offering the lowest prices. To make such statements about people who do shop there is insensitive to people who have to make such choices in order to keep their family afloat without breaking the bank. It's great that you have enough to be able to shop elsewhere. Not everyone does.


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## AidansMommy1012 (Jan 9, 2006)

And OP:


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## Isamama (May 2, 2006)

Thanks for standing up for your children! What a tough situation!

I am glad you spoke with the manager. Please update us when she calls back.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I wonder if this particular Walmart greeter has some sort of disability himself that makes it hard for him to read other people's body languge.

That's what I would assume...the walmarts here seem to hire people from the local assisted care home, so older people with dementia, or people with disabilities...


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AidansMommy1012* 







Not to mention that many people are in a financial situation that leaves no choice but to shop at the place offering the lowest prices. To make such statements about people who do shop there is insensitive to people who have to make such choices in order to keep their family afloat without breaking the bank. It's great that you have enough to be able to shop elsewhere. Not everyone does.

Yes to this!


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

good for you i think you did brilliantly, your daughters are lucky to have you.


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## puddle (Aug 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AidansMommy1012* 







Not to mention that many people are in a financial situation that leaves no choice but to shop at the place offering the lowest prices. To make such statements about people who do shop there is insensitive to people who have to make such choices in order to keep their family afloat without breaking the bank. It's great that you have enough to be able to shop elsewhere. Not everyone does.

AND... in some rural areas there are literally no other options.

But back to the topic, I agree with the previous posters. You set an excellent example for your children about how to stand up for themselves, even if the offending person is elderly or disabled in some way. Now your kids know that they don't have to let someone touch them just because he is old or mentally ill, and they know that you will protect them at any cost. Great job, mama!


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *puddle* 
AND... in some rural areas there are literally no other options.









: because walmart crushed them out.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Alright everyone, let's keep this thread on topic to the OP's post.
Any talk about Wal-Mart and shopping there or not does not belong in the Parenting forum.

Please pm me if you have any questions.
Thanks!


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## southernmommie (Jan 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
ETA-- if he was just a sweet, possible disabled old man, it would seem more likely that he would be hurt by the yelling, not respond "just doing my job lady," iykwim.

You know, I was thinking this same thing. Something about the original post made me get a feeling of something more. Couldn't figure out why until you put it like that. That's exactly it.







:


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

I am sorry but I am going to go against what every other person has said on this thread and ask if I am I the person that thinks yelling at an elderly or any other person for that matter is wrong? Ok you want your child to stand up for themselves but I think yelling at a person is not the answer and their are better ways to do it. Sure you don't want strangers hugging your child but you could have picked your child up and walked away instead you are teaching your child that it's ok to yell at others. Would you want somebody yelling at you? treat others how you would want to be treated.








:


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## NewMama2007 (Mar 4, 2007)

Yikes! It's that mama bear instinct. I've had to say things before - some people think it's OK to touch/kiss/hug strange children for some reason.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

OP go easy on yourself. I have a very sensitive child, and when he was little people used to frighten him... he had no business trying to hug her like that. The world can be scary when you are little... and you don't have control over much of it.

If you see him again, maybe say something about it not being personal, but some children are afraid of strangers, no matter who they are.
*
And sometimes you kin*d of have to yell when there are children screaming just to be heard over the din! So the yelling shouldn't be taken personally.... when it is just loud and you aren't being heard.


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## southernmommie (Jan 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baltic_ballet* 
I am sorry but I am going to go against what every other person has said on this thread and ask if I am I the person that thinks yelling at an elderly or any other person for that matter is wrong? Ok you want your child to stand up for themselves but I think yelling at a person is not the answer and their are better ways to do it. Sure you don't want strangers hugging your child but you could have picked your child up and walked away instead you are teaching your child that it's ok to yell at others. Would you want somebody yelling at you? treat others how you would want to be treated.








:

I think you missed the part of the beginning when they walked into the store and she told him not to mess with her. She didn't yell at that point. It wasn't until he came back and recognized that she was STILL having a bad day and tried something more, knowing that the parent asked him not to when they FIRST walked into the store.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baltic_ballet* 
I am sorry but I am going to go against what every other person has said on this thread and ask if I am I the person that thinks yelling at an elderly or any other person for that matter is wrong? Ok you want your child to stand up for themselves but I think yelling at a person is not the answer and their are better ways to do it. Sure you don't want strangers hugging your child but you could have picked your child up and walked away instead you are teaching your child that it's ok to yell at others. Would you want somebody yelling at you? treat others how you would want to be treated.








:

I know I'm going to be flamed to a crisp, but I agree. I'm sure you felt frazzled and stressed, but yelling at an old man who was trying (awkwardly and probably wrongly) to be nice to your child seems like overkill to me.

I understand the need to protect your child, and the mama bear instinct. And yes, I've read Protecting the Gift. And in this case, I think you over-reacted. Sorry.


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## beansricerevolt (Jun 29, 2005)

Yay, I think you over reacted.
Most elderly people that I know love children and, yay, sometimes forget about the boundary thing. But why yell? Most parents on this forum try to teach their children a gentle, peaceful world. Yelling at an elderly person for wanting to console your crying child is hardly that.
What about "Thanks for trying to help but I can take care of it."


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chipper26* 
I only read the first few responses but I'm with you and the other posters, like the one above.







In fact, I might even discuss it with the manager. That is way overstepping his job...hugging kids!

I'm a teacher and I get warned about the possible implications of hugging or touching kids in any way who I've formed a relationship with! This guy was clueless and creepy.

No one hugs my kids without my approval/permission! Good job!
















Yeah, how awful, hugging a kid







She should do her best to get him fired for that...


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansricerevolt* 
What about "Thanks for trying to help but I can take care of it."









:


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## NewMama2007 (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansricerevolt* 
Yay, I think you over reacted.
Most elderly people that I know love children and, yay, sometimes forget about the boundary thing. But why yell? Most parents on this forum try to teach their children a gentle, peaceful world. Yelling at an elderly person for wanting to console your crying child is hardly that.
What about "Thanks for trying to help but I can take care of it."

She did say something to that effect, the first time that this gentleman made the situation worse.

And please don't forget how easy it is to get frustrated when you have a screaming child.


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## southernmommie (Jan 7, 2007)

I still think that the warning at the front door walking into the store was enough. To try again and be more forceful at the end was too much. Yelling might not have been the best method, but she had every right to regardless of how old the guy was. The guy remembered that it was the same family that told him not to when they walked in.


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## beansricerevolt (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *southernmommie* 
I still think that the warning at the front door walking into the store was enough. To try again and be more forceful at the end was too much.

I agree, it was to much. But the pacifist that I am thinks that yelling wasn't a great way to respond.


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## Rose79 (Oct 20, 2008)

Good for you Mama! You were protecting your girls, I see no harm done.


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *southernmommie* 
I think you missed the part of the beginning when they walked into the store and she told him not to mess with her. She didn't yell at that point. It wasn't until he came back and recognized that she was STILL having a bad day and tried something more, knowing that the parent asked him not to when they FIRST walked into the store.

No, I didn't miss the first part of the post, in her original post the op said she smiled and said no thank you when he offered her dc stickers and went on shopping where dose it say she said don't mess with me?


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## phoolove (Jul 18, 2008)

I might be wrong, but I think that most people would agree that yelling at someone is probably not the best way to handle even the most stressful situation, but the title of the thread mentioned wigging out on someone, so it sounds like she knows that maybe she over reacted, but was looking for some support in the area of
"we've all been there...no one's perfect...understand being frustrated..."

stuff like that.

I think most of us have reacted badly to things sometimes, and when it comes to our kids sometimes we freak out especially hard.

I wonder what the man thought, or if he talked about it later with someone. Maybe someone said to him

'we've all made mistakes...no one's perfect...you live you learn.."
whatever, I mean, maybe he will think next time. Maybe the poster will be have a better means to nip this in the bud next time.

Also, I think some people are imaging a greasy old man v/s an elderly, soft spoken man with some slight dementia....


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## southernmommie (Jan 7, 2007)

The "No thank you" does. If it were you, what would you do in her position?


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *southernmommie* 
The "No thank you" does. If it were you, what would you do in her position?

A polite "Thanks for trying to help but I can take care of it" and then walk away, you don't have to stick around pick your DC up and move away from the situation and as you are walking comfort your child telling her that its ok and the man was only trying to be nice and he won't hurt you.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

She was in the checkout line, she really couldnt just walk away without leaveing all her groceries that she was in the middle of purchasing. Perhaps in the middle of the financial transaction itself and he was trying to pull the screaming child off of her legs! I dont see a graceful way to just walk away, first, she had to physically struggle against him to get her child out of his grasp as the child is becoming more frightened and upset by the whole episode. Second, walk away where? She needed to finish her purchase and push out a cart of groceries and deal with two children! Besides,this guy had already had at least two cues:mom saying no thanks, and the child herself screaming at his approach. Why wasnt the little girls terrified screams enough for him to stop? She'd already gone the polite, "no thanks" route. So, no thanks didnt work and the child herself screaming didnt work.

Seriously, where does the need to be polite end?

Meanwhile, what about the childs feelings of safety? Its ok to stomp on her feelings in order to be polite to a stranger? I wouldnt want to teach my dd that unwanted contact from a strange man was required of her in order to be "polite".


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## southernmommie (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok. Here's where I stand. I don't think the OP was out of line. I also think that Baltic_Ballet had a better response minus the picking up kids and walking away. The guy was out of line. In her reaction, she was completely in line with protecting her kids. There are always more than one way to handle any one situation. I don't think that trying to get him fired is an appropriate action to take. More store training would be more in line with the situation.

In saying this, I don't know where the rest of this post is suppose to end up, so this is my last response. There are definitely more than one viewpoint here as with anything. LOL.

Going to eat my dinner now.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Oh, I wouldnt try to get him fired! And the OP didnt want that either. And in her place, I would also have felt badly after yelling.

Well, in her place, I probally wouldnt have yelled, but would have fumed all day and berated myself for NOT standing up for my dd! But I struggle with my nonconfrontational issues......


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

I think I give people the benefit of the doubt to often maybe. But, I know where our walmart stores hire their greaters, and I know that they have mental dissabilities/dementia issues. Maybe cause my grandma worked in a nursing home my whole life, so I was there a lot? But I don't think yelling at an old man who very well may just not understand boundaries anymore, is ever the right thing.

Our Safeway has a greeter who tries to hug Travis, take Travis from me and strap him into the cart for me, and is seriously offended that Travis doesn't comment on the pop up kung-fu panda card she shows him, every single time we are there... I should mention, that Travis is all of 15 months old, and says like 10 words, at most. But, no, I don't think I have a right to be anything more than polite to her when I said no thank you, he doesn't want to be in a cart, he can't talk, etc... It's not her fault. She's also a greeter cause she can't bag groceries or fetch carts, but they still want her to have a job.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I think erring on the yelling side is more than understandable when it involves your _child_ and their boundaries not being respected, esp. when your child has already been upset by a person who is not respecting the "No thank you" you already set.. I'm not saying that yelling is ideal, but I think it's understandable and not the worst offense.

Dealing with all that, kids, and checking out would make it very difficult for many to remain overly cordial. And yeah, it's quite possible that that hostility that he let out in the end was sensed by her...i.e. maybe he wasn't coming across as docile and hapless or well meaning and clueless from the beginning. It's kind of like the creepy guy who says Hi, and then calls you a name when you don't respond b/c you fear him.


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

I don't understand why the people greeter was at the checkout line. They are supposed to be at the entrance, because beside greeting people, they also sticker people's items for return and exchange. I would have yelled at the guy too, and there's no telling what dh would have done. Old or not, the company has clear policies, and touching a customer's kid is just a no-no and a liability.


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## southernmommie (Jan 7, 2007)

Sorry, I'm addicted to this thread now. In our Walmart here, there are greeters at the entrance and the exit. The exit ones sometimes check your receipt and your cart. It is possible that the guy switched to cover a lunch or break time. Our entrance is also right next to our exit. So it is easy to see both greeters.


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Yes, we have receipt checkers too at the exit, but that's where they are supposed to be, at the entrance or exit, not wandering around the checkout lanes, and definitely not touching people's children.


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## southernmommie (Jan 7, 2007)

I agree. By your post I didn't know you were aware of the exit person. It only mentioned the entrance greeter. Sorry.


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

I find it a bit strange how you can no longer touch children without it having a bad connotation or it being misconstrued; it seems like we now live in a cold and sterile world.

I wonder how our "don't touch" policies of today will affect our children and future generations ;ater on in life&#8230;

Sorry to go off the topic.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baltic_ballet* 
I find it a bit strange how you can no longer touch children without it having a bad connotation or it being misconstrued; it seems like we now live in a cold and sterile world.

He wasn't just trying to touch her. He was trying to pull her away from her mother when she (the child) was screaming in protest. That's very different from the person behind me in line giving DS a high-five as he giggles and smiles.

I don't think there is anything cold or sterile about refraining from touching a child who does not want to be touched.


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

People touch my baby all the time. She's cute, chubby and happy and laughs with everyone. However, there are times when she will frown with someone, and they back off and apologize for "being too ugly" or "scary" and we laugh about it. But I've never had anyone try to pry my kid (I have a 3 yo too) away from me to give her a hug. This just wasn't a pat on the head or a gentle squeeze of the upper arm as a friendly gesture or salutation (common here in PR, where people are more touchy-feely). The guy was trying to _pry the child away from her mother_. Why on earth would he think this is a good idea?


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
He wasn't just trying to touch her. He was trying to pull her away from her mother when she (the child) was screaming in protest. That's very different from the person behind me in line giving DS a high-five as he giggles and smiles.

I don't think there is anything cold or sterile about refraining from touching a child who does not want to be touched.

I wasn't referring to that particular incident when I wrote that - I meant it more of a general way.


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## accountclosed2 (May 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baltic_ballet* 
I find it a bit strange how you can no longer touch children without it having a bad connotation or it being misconstrued; it seems like we now live in a cold and sterile world.

I wonder how our "don't touch" policies of today will affect our children and future generations ;ater on in life&#8230;

Sorry to go off the topic.

Why on earth should it be ok to touch children you don't know? I hate it when strangers touch DD. Would you like it if a stranger came up and hugged you, or put an arm around you and tried to lead you somewhere you might not like to go? Some people might not mind it, and good for them, but I don't think I'm the only one feeling this way. And I think our children deserve the same respect.


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Equuskia* 
People touch my baby all the time. She's cute, chubby and happy and laughs with everyone. However, there are times when she will frown with someone, and they back off and apologize for "being too ugly" or "scary" and we laugh about it. But I've never had anyone try to pry my kid (I have a 3 yo too) away from me to give her a hug. This just wasn't a pat on the head or a gentle squeeze of the upper arm as a friendly gesture or salutation (common here in PR, where people are more touchy-feely). The guy was trying to _pry the child away from her mother_. Why on earth would he think this is a good idea?


As someone else pointed out he may have a disability and not know or realise about boundaries


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Then he definitely either needs more training or another position away from people if he can't control himself. Prying children from their parents can end very badly for him.

Disability or not, it's not like he's some random stranger, he's an employee for the store, who is trained (or should have been trained) on appropriate bounderies around customers. It is NOT his job to pry children from their parents and "comfort" them.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

People with disabilities can be taught about boundries if they lack them naturally for whatever reason. Or at least, if he is high functioning enough to be placed as a greeter, then he is high functioning enough to understand about not touching. Wal mart doesnt hire people with disabilities on thier own. Their are agencies that place them, they match up employees and employers based on the employees skills, level of fucntioning, interests, abilities etc. and they have trainers who then help them learn to do said job. Its not like walmart just hires someone with no idea what thier limitations are. Just saying. Im all for being polite, but there is a point where you just have to defend yourself. Sure, yelling may not have been the best bet. I had a guy once try to physically drag me out of a nightclub (years ago prekids) even though I said no many times, politely and a bit more forcefully and was literally leaning back, putting all of my weight into my efforts to resist. Now, I dont KNOW for a fact that he had anything bad in mind...but I had every right not to find out! I wasnt leaving with him! No matter how rude I had to be for the idea to penetrate to him that I didnt want to go.

Im just pointing out that there is a point where selfdefense/defense of your child overrides politness and in this case, she felt she had reached it. None of us were there and probally none of us really know for sure what we would have done had we been in that exaxt situation.

And the child in question has feelings and rights too, that were being violated by this man.


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## IncompetentHousewife (May 10, 2007)

The hug thing is creepy.

I have problems often because my 2.5yo is sort of timid around strangers. People seem to need to persist with her. Why can't they just leave her alone? I need ideas for what to say to people. If I say, "She's shy," they usually leave her alone. But I'm not really comfortable labeling my daughter right in front of her!

She was in the hospital for two nights this week (OK now!) and it made me crazy how many of the people tried to persist at "getting a smile out of her." Sheesh, she's sick and you're a stranger, I wanted to shout. I understood that the main nurses needed to get her comfortable with them so they could work on her, but even the people just popping in for a second had to do this. Made me crazy.


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## haleyelianasmom (Nov 5, 2005)

This thread. First of all, I understand some of us hate Walmart. I admit, I've posted about avoiding walmart and gotten in arguments with people who say boycotting walmart is worthless. I've also shopped there. We do what we can, but that's not the topic of the thread. Way to change the subject and judge someone who wants feedback on something totally different. I'm sick of the way we sometimes need disclaimers here... like "I stopped at McDonalds today ***WE ONLY HAD TO USE THE BATHROOM AND DD GOT A FRUIT SALAD BECAUSE SHE HADN'T EATEN LUNCH TODAY BUT WE USUALLY NEVER GO THERE IN FACT WE'RE TOTALLY LOCAL ORGANIC VEGETARIAN*** anyways, I ran into my friend..." etc etc etc. Who cares why you were at McDonalds. On with the pertinent story. The sad thing is, if someone were to post the story without the disclaimer, we'd have several moms jumping in saying "ooh, I'd never feed my kids that garbage, maybe that's why he had that meltdown 2 weeks later, or why he had an accident that night" um, yeah.

Anyways, back to the actual story. I personally would have been gentler in the way I spoke to him. It sounds like he was well intentioned, even though he was crossing a line there. I guess I would have picked up dc and said "no, she's nervous right now" and stepped back a bit to set a clear picture that were weren't okay with him grabbing dc. If it continued, I would have gotten increasingly firm with him.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

I got a call from Walmart yesterday (Sunday) from a manager who said he assured me this type of action would not happen again (I am assuming he spoke to this guy) and he apologized for any trauma it may have caused (those were his exact words!) and gave us a gift certificate. I gave the certificate to a friend who really needs the money and I just will avoid that particular place again. I don't shop there all the time, it was just nearby and my girl was already fussy and I just wanted to get my shopping done. Get the picture? Anyway, wow, I just read all the posts (it was only 2 pages long the last time I was on MDC) and I can honestly say after the incident I am very proud of how I handled the situation. I will be more wary of greeters and hopefully I won't have to experience this type of situation again. It is not pleasant to experience. Having an old man try to pry and hug you already shy and upset 2.5 year old daughter it just awful


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *haleyelianasmom* 
This thread. First of all, I understand some of us hate Walmart. I admit, I've posted about avoiding walmart and gotten in arguments with people who say boycotting walmart is worthless. I've also shopped there. We do what we can, but that's not the topic of the thread. Way to change the subject and judge someone who wants feedback on something totally different. I'm sick of the way we sometimes need disclaimers here... like "I stopped at McDonalds today ***WE ONLY HAD TO USE THE BATHROOM AND DD GOT A FRUIT SALAD BECAUSE SHE HADN'T EATEN LUNCH TODAY BUT WE USUALLY NEVER GO THERE IN FACT WE'RE TOTALLY LOCAL ORGANIC VEGETARIAN*** anyways, I ran into my friend..." etc etc etc. Who cares why you were at McDonalds. On with the pertinent story. The sad thing is, if someone were to post the story without the disclaimer, we'd have several moms jumping in saying "ooh, I'd never feed my kids that garbage, maybe that's why he had that meltdown 2 weeks later, or why he had an accident that night" um, yeah.

Anyways, back to the actual story. I personally would have been gentler in the way I spoke to him. It sounds like he was well intentioned, even though he was crossing a line there. I guess I would have picked up dc and said "no, she's nervous right now" and stepped back a bit to set a clear picture that were weren't okay with him grabbing dc. If it continued, I would have gotten increasingly firm with him.

Thank you


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I don't think I would have yelled at him. That probably wasn't handled very well.

BUT.. why on earth would he not notice that hugging a screaming child that he doesn't even know would be acceptable? That seems pretty out there to me. No matter what his disabilities are.

As if the fact that you were already at your breaking point wasn't clue enough to smile and back away.... I don't understand why an adult would think that talking to your child in that freakishly huggy tone would be O.K.

When my dd was really little, and she was suffering from having her tonsils out. I went into Wal Mart to get some Children's motrin. Up until that point, Children's motrin was by prescription only. SO, I ran in to get some when it first came out over the counter.

The greeter said "Awww... You look sad, do you want me to hold you while your mom shops?"..... LMAO!!! "Um... No?"


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I wonder if this particular Walmart greeter has some sort of disability himself that makes it hard for him to read other people's body languge.

That was my first thought.

I've had this happen a lot with my kids. I just tell people no, firmly, but nicely, and move on, fast. It's really hard though when people don't take no for an answer.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

OP, having read the other replies, I want to come back and say that I'm *glad* you're proud of how you handled things.








Way to go, standing up for your child!

It is absolutely unacceptable for someone to try and pry your crying child away from you!

I also think most of these critics might find themselves yelling if the "sweet elderly gentleman" were treating them, as adults, the way he treated your child, and not taking no for an answer!

I don't understand why some people want to go soft on those that don't respect children's boundaries.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
OP, having read the other replies, I want to come back and say that I'm *glad* you're proud of how you handled things.








Way to go, standing up for your child!

It is absolutely unacceptable for someone to try and pry your crying child away from you!

I also think most of these critics might find themselves yelling if the "sweet elderly gentleman" were treating them, as adults, the way he treated your child, and not taking no for an answer!

I don't understand why some people want to go soft on those that don't respect children's boundaries.









I don't think it's soft to see alternatives to yelling. I have this issue with an elderly acquaintance who can't accept my kids ever being shy or upset. She wants to prod them (ie tickling), hard, in the tummy, to make them laugh. I move them away, and tell her that they don't need that, but never, ever, have I yelled at her, and she can be, well, _very_ persistent.

But I think that an elderly person deserves as much respect as my child. She doesn't intend to be mean. She just does not read the cues.









It's my job to protect my child, but also my place in society to deal with difficult situations with grace and good manners. Now, if I were walking down a street and a stranger tried to pry my child away, heck, yes, I"d yell. But in a store? No. I'd firmly lift my child, and tell the man no, but not yell. No matter how stressed. But then, I"m not a yeller. Or at least, I work hard not to be.


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## MOMYS (Nov 5, 2008)

I would love to say that I would not have yelled at him as I know there is a better way, BUT the truth is that it is hard to say what I would have done in that situation. I think I might very well have handled it in the same way!


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

I think it's weird so many are worked up over compassion. something our society lacks GREATLY!







I get that your DD was scared but geesh, what is yelling at someone for trying to comfort her teaching her?


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

It teaches her that it's okay to speak up in no uncertain terms when you are not comfortable with the way someone is touching you.


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
It teaches her that it's okay to speak up in no uncertain terms when you are not comfortable with the way someone is touching you.

This.

I was faced with a similar situation (with a person who may have been mentally disabled), I put my hand out infront of me (between the person and myself -DS was behind my legs) and said firmly and clearly, "Please stop. He does not want to be touched." They stopped.

Now if they had not stopped and tried to pry DS away from me? Heck ya I would've yelled at them.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
I don't think it's soft to see alternatives to yelling. I have this issue with an elderly acquaintance who can't accept my kids ever being shy or upset. She wants to prod them (ie tickling), hard, in the tummy, to make them laugh. I move them away, and tell her that they don't need that, but never, ever, have I yelled at her, and she can be, well, _very_ persistent.

But I think that an elderly person deserves as much respect as my child. She doesn't intend to be mean. She just does not read the cues.









It's my job to protect my child, but also my place in society to deal with difficult situations with grace and good manners. Now, if I were walking down a street and a stranger tried to pry my child away, heck, yes, I"d yell. But in a store? No. I'd firmly lift my child, and tell the man no, but not yell. No matter how stressed. But then, I"m not a yeller. Or at least, I work hard not to be.









Bravo. I agree with your entire post.

We're also here to teach manners, and how to interact with members of society who may or may not be disabled or suffer from mental illness.

You can show clear boundaries without yelling. It's what GD is all about, right?


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## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kriket* 
I really can't stand walmart. I don't know how you ladies shop there.

They have good prices, good selection, convenient.


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## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SueSB* 
I have problems often because my 2.5yo is sort of timid around strangers. People seem to need to persist with her. Why can't they just leave her alone? I need ideas for what to say to people. If I say, "She's shy," they usually leave her alone. But I'm not really comfortable labeling my daughter right in front of her!

Yes, I struggled with this when my daughter was younger as well (now that she's 4, she talks to everyone about everything







) I never used the word shy - because I think it can become a self-fulfilling label, and she really never was shy - she just wasn't fond of large groups or of people getting in her face.

So instead, I tried to say things like, "DD is feeling quiet right now" or "DD isn't feeling like talking right now". Or... I'd just smile &/or talk to the person myself, then turn to DD & say something like, "It's alright if you don't want to talk".


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## Village Mama (Jul 22, 2004)

I am so appalled though that kids are not offered the same respect as adults as far as personal space goes.
No stranger would ever get in my face if I was feeling grumpy or try to hug me or touch me like I see people touching kids.
When my littlest guy was two he was crying in the corner of the post office. A woman got right up in his face and started saying "ooohhh whats the matter are you grumpy?" in a condecending sing songy mocking manner. He growled at her and she just laughed and got closer... so he kicked her in the shin! I was mortified , but in the same sense she was way out of line. I am sure she was a nice woman and ment best.
I have two kiddos on the spectrum and both have issues with needing a little bit of extra personal space when they are overstimulated. I try to advocate for that space for them ALL of the time because people just don't seem to respond when the kids either ask for space or are obviously terrified or crawling into a corner to get away.
My kiddos are so sweet, but I have to say that they get more than thier share of personal space invasion from people who are being playful or nice. It isn't always welcome and it is really unfair that people don't give children the same respect as they would to other people.
While I agree that it isn't nice to snap at someone ( I have done it a couple of times) I sort of get panicked myself when I am not being listened to in that regard.


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## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

double post.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

He was making a bad situation worse. I think it's understandable that she was short with him, he wasn't exactly helping was he. If things were calm and fine and she had flipped that would be one thing. Screaming child being pried from me while I'm trying my best to exit a place as quickly as possible gets yelled at. Forgivable in my book.


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## AlpineMama (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *haleyelianasmom* 
This thread. First of all, I understand some of us hate Walmart. I admit, I've posted about avoiding walmart and gotten in arguments with people who say boycotting walmart is worthless. I've also shopped there. We do what we can, but that's not the topic of the thread. Way to change the subject and judge someone who wants feedback on something totally different. I'm sick of the way we sometimes need disclaimers here... like "I stopped at McDonalds today ***WE ONLY HAD TO USE THE BATHROOM AND DD GOT A FRUIT SALAD BECAUSE SHE HADN'T EATEN LUNCH TODAY BUT WE USUALLY NEVER GO THERE IN FACT WE'RE TOTALLY LOCAL ORGANIC VEGETARIAN*** anyways, I ran into my friend..." etc etc etc. Who cares why you were at McDonalds. On with the pertinent story. The sad thing is, if someone were to post the story without the disclaimer, we'd have several moms jumping in saying "ooh, I'd never feed my kids that garbage, maybe that's why he had that meltdown 2 weeks later, or why he had an accident that night" um, yeah.

Anyways, back to the actual story. I personally would have been gentler in the way I spoke to him. It sounds like he was well intentioned, even though he was crossing a line there. I guess I would have picked up dc and said "no, she's nervous right now" and stepped back a bit to set a clear picture that were weren't okay with him grabbing dc. If it continued, I would have gotten increasingly firm with him.

Yeah, pretty much word for word, I agree.


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## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
It's my job to protect my child, but also my place in society to deal with difficult situations with grace and good manners. *Now, if I were walking down a street and a stranger tried to pry my child away, heck, yes, I"d yell. But in a store? No.* I'd firmly lift my child, and tell the man no, but not yell. No matter how stressed. But then, I"m not a yeller. Or at least, I work hard not to be.










Bolding by me.

What is the difference? It is my job to protect my child and teach him how to protect himself EVERYWHERE. The OP had already tried being firm and polite and it wasn't working. It is sometimes ok to be seen as "rude" to protect yourself and our children need to know that.


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## daisymama12 (Jul 2, 2006)

"Thanks, we're fine, DD is ready to go home. DD, let's go, sweetie."

And if you want to reinforce the boundaries issue, I (hope) I would say nicely, "dd, you don't have to hug if you don't want to. Let's go."

My background is not North American, so that may explain it, but I see the elderly man as trying to be helpful, misguided as he was. I find it sad that there is "clapping" for him being yelled at. I get that the OP was frustrated, and annoyed (could've been me, my ds was the same way), but I don't get the congratulations for yelling at him.

I hope his manager was kind when he explained how to better interact with children.


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## laralee16 (Nov 12, 2005)

I think you did the right thing. NOONE hugs my kid, without asking me 1st. I have never had anyone try as of yet, but you can bet I will be yelling if they
try to pry my kid off my leg!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
He wasn't just trying to touch her. He was trying to pull her away from her mother when she (the child) was screaming in protest. That's very different from the person behind me in line giving DS a high-five as he giggles and smiles.

I don't think there is anything cold or sterile about refraining from touching a child who does not want to be touched.

Yes to all of this! My son will talk and smile with people in line, and that is fine, as long as HE is ok with it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Village Mama* 
When my littlest guy was two he was crying in the corner of the post office. A woman got right up in his face and started saying "ooohhh whats the matter are you grumpy?" in a condecending sing songy mocking manner. He growled at her and she just laughed and got closer... so he kicked her in the shin! I was mortified , but in the same sense she was way out of line. I am sure she was a nice woman and ment best.

LOL! Nice to know he can stick up for himself.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

I just want to add when we entered the store and approached the first time I was being nice, I even smiled and politely said "No thank you." I reacted by being loud first because my daughter has the lungs of a tornado siren so I had to get above HER voice to let my voice be heard. And I will admit I do get the "mother bear" instinct when I feel my children are being hurt either emotionally or physically and I so I took action. Honestly I DO feel badly that I had to yell at him but his presence gave me the creeps and an internal red flag came up and I do not ignore those gut instincts. My daughter's safety comes first, and the feelings of strangers comes in second. I do teach my children manners, they say please and thank you, I do AP and gentle discipline but where do you draw the line? If your child is being kidnapped do you politely say "Um excuse me if it is ok with you, do you mind giving my child back? I need to nurse her and she has to have a nap at 2?" Where does it end? Sometimes we NEED to be "curt" with people unfortunately and it is not OUR fault, if those people didn't put themselves in that situation (sometimes they don't realize it I know) then we would not have to show our teeth and claws to protect our young.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I think you were right. You shouldn't worry about being polite when someone has ignored your "No" and you are concerned. Whether or not he has a disability isn't something that I'm going to concern myself with when my child's space is being invaded to the extent that they are upset. I think that is something for the employer to take in consideration. So what, now if someone behaves in an invasive way, repeatedly, we have to continue to be polite mommys in case he has a disabilty? In the greater scheme of things, I care about that. I would consider it. In the moment, without knowing, I'm not going to worry about that or someone's feelings. I don't think raising your voice is the same as being disrespectful or abusive toward an employee. I think most of us have had "mama bear" moments. It's not a bad thing.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I probably would have yelled, too, or at least raised my voice-- maybe I would not have if I had only ONE child at the time, but having more than one (esp. 2 younger children) makes me feel physically more vulnerable for their safety. Logistically, it's just harder.


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## Jannah6 (Aug 29, 2007)

I feel for your DD







. I was just telling DH that some people just don't get it(ie, some of his family members). I hate when people impose themselves on children. Why do they think it's alright when the child obviously doesn't want the attention that their giving them







:


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

OP, I absolutely believe that you did the right thing; a red flag went up for you, and I think other posters need to respect your instincts. _Even if_ he was a "harmless" old man with dementia-- and again, I think his "I'm just doing my job, lady" comment belies that interpretation-- you taught your daughters that their feelings/boundaries come first in interactions with strangers. I think _that_ was the important lesson in this scenario.

It is one thing for strangers to be friendly with our children. Even when it makes me a little uncomfortable (when they say things I don't agree with, or chastise my toddler for imaginary offenses), I generally just try to be polite and move away, just as I try to be polite when people do the same to me. If anyone does anything to my daughter that I would not be okay with them doing to me (i.e., grabbing of any sort!), "being polite" will not be a high priority in my reaction.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

I think the posters who are putting more emphasis on being civilized to a man disturbing a child are picturing the scene a little differently than the OP described it.

Sure, if the man approached the OP and her DD and offered a hug, then yelling at him would have been unnecessary and inappropriate.

I think these people are picturing such a scene. A shy child clings to the leg of her mother. A nice old man offers a hug. "No, thank you" is enough.

But would you seriously just stand there and say "No, thank you" without any urgency when this man is PRYING your screaming child away from you? I would hope not.

Just pick her up and walk away? Well, from the way the OP described it, she was TRYING to, but it was a struggle. When you are STRUGGLING with a strange man to get your child back, do you smile and calmly say "Thank you very much, I've got this handled?" I hope not. I hope you react to the urgency of the situation, that you tell the man in more ways than one (both physically and verbally) to back off.

How do you communicate verbally in an urgent situation? Well, your voice raises. Your kid runs out into the street and a car is coming - do you say, well, I'm GD, so I will calmly say "Sammy, streets are not for playing"? No, you yell for Sammy to come back while you're running for him. That gets Sammy's attention and helps him to understand the urgency of the situation. If the old guy is not already understanding that prying a screaming child away from her mother is a problem, then it's entirely appropriate to direct his attention to that fact with the urgency of your tone.

I didn't see anything where the OP called him names or swore at him - I would agree that would have been inappropriate and unnecessary. But seriously, those who feel that a strange man dragging your child away from you does not warrant yelling - what would?


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Also, please raise your hand if being taught as a child to be "civilized" when people are touching you inappropriately (or have been manipulated to tolerate this to avoid "hurting the person's feelings") has hurt you or someone you know?

In my case, it's someone I know. <Raises hand>


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## beansricerevolt (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 

How do you communicate verbally in an urgent situation? Well, your voice raises. Your kid runs out into the street and a car is coming - do you say, well, I'm GD, so I will calmly say "Sammy, streets are not for playing"? No, you yell for Sammy to come back while you're running for him. That gets Sammy's attention and helps him to understand the urgency of the situation. If the old guy is not already understanding that prying a screaming child away from her mother is a problem, then it's entirely appropriate to direct his attention to that fact with the urgency of your tone.

I didn't see anything where the OP called him names or swore at him - I would agree that would have been inappropriate and unnecessary. But seriously, those who feel that a strange man dragging your child away from you does not warrant yelling - what would?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristyMarie* 
Bolding by me.

What is the difference? It is my job to protect my child and teach him how to protect himself EVERYWHERE. The OP had already tried being firm and polite and it wasn't working. It is sometimes ok to be seen as "rude" to protect yourself and our children need to know that.

Of course the world isn't so black & white


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Ok, trying not to get heated here. But to me I see a very big difference between teaching your kids not to let people touch them inappropriately and helping them learn to set boundaries with other people when the touching is not desired, but not sexual in nature.

In the first case, by any means necessary, kids should yell, scream, etc. Be taught that there is nothing they can't say to their parents, that no one should touch them in private areas without their consent.

In the other, they can learn to say, "No thank you, I don't want a hug" without yelling and humiliating the well-meaning individual.

You can't go through life "wigging out" on those clueless people who think all kids or young people like hugs, and surely even as adults we've all had those moments where we have to handle people who want to hug when we don't.

My loving, clueless, well-meaning father still tries to hug DS when he is in meltdown mode, despite knowing and being told that it doesn't help. He is absolutely clueless when it comes to interacting with people (sneaking suspicion he's on the spectrum, but certainly never diagnosed). Yelling at him would be so humiliating for him. I just tell him firmly that DS doesn't feel like hugging, or whatever.

Honestly, some people truly are clueless. I think this guy really did believe his job was to make everyone smile, even if the kid was melting down. I agree with the PP who said that she hoped his manager was gentle with him. I also hope he did not lose his job in these tough economic times.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
Ok, trying not to get heated here. But to me I see a very big difference between teaching your kids not to let people touch them inappropriately and helping them learn to set boundaries with other people when the touching is not desired, but not sexual in nature.

It's well-known that predators get children used to being touched non-sexually at first. Hugs, holding hands. Backrubs as a transition point. (Before anyone jumps on me about suggesting this Walmart greeter was a predator, I'm not - but I AM saying that drawing a distinction between unwanted touching that an adult would judge as sexual in nature vs unwanted touching that an adult would not judge as sexual in nature is not helpful to the safety of children).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
In the first case, by any means necessary, kids should yell, scream, etc. Be taught that there is nothing they can't say to their parents, that no one should touch them in private areas without their consent.

But it's ok to touch other places without their consent - indeed, with their explicit nonconsent? And here, it's too easy for a child to internalize this lesson and not be able to discern the exact moment when touch is sexual in nature - and if they are, they are already too brainwashed and shamed by the predator.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
In the other, they can learn to say, "No thank you, I don't want a hug" without yelling and humiliating the well-meaning individual.

Ignoring the concept of a small child melting down being expected here to say "No thank you," how will this same small child judge a well-meaning individual from one who is not?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
You can't go through life "wigging out" on those clueless people who think all kids or young people like hugs, and surely even as adults we've all had those moments where we have to handle people who want to hug when we don't.

Why can't you go through life wigging out on people crossing major boundaries? It would hurt their feelings?

If a strange man forcibly tried to hug me, you can bet I would react with more than a smile and a "No thank you." Why would I do less for my child? And of course my child requires more protection than I do myself (because she is small and not as strong).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
My loving, clueless, well-meaning father still tries to hug DS when he is in meltdown mode, despite knowing and being told that it doesn't help. He is absolutely clueless when it comes to interacting with people (sneaking suspicion he's on the spectrum, but certainly never diagnosed). Yelling at him would be so humiliating for him. I just tell him firmly that DS doesn't feel like hugging, or whatever.

Between humiliating my father and humiliating my daughter - sorry, Dad. You're a grownup. You have choices. I've heard and read way too many stories of people who as children were abused but whose parents didn't protect them because, after all, it was Grandpa (or whoever) and "we don't want to embarass him."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
Honestly, some people truly are clueless. I think this guy really did believe his job was to make everyone smile, even if the kid was melting down. I agree with the PP who said that she hoped his manager was gentle with him. I also hope he did not lose his job in these tough economic times.

Yes, some people are clueless. I protect my child against everyone, not just the ones who know better. Clueless people are a threat too. *I will not teach my daughter "you have a right to your bodily integrity UNLESS the person is well-meaning, clueless, or your Grandpa."*


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## Peppermint Leaf (Jan 11, 2008)

I would have reacted the same way. My DS worked at Walmart and I know that they do hire greeters whose "knives are not all sharp" .... which is fine - however some should not be in the position and dealing with the publicv if they can't understand the basics of what is acceptable.

You did the right thing


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristyMarie* 
Bolding by me.

What is the difference? It is my job to protect my child and teach him how to protect himself EVERYWHERE. The OP had already tried being firm and polite and it wasn't working. It is sometimes ok to be seen as "rude" to protect yourself and our children need to know that.

I think there is a huge difference. Someone down the street is trying to abduct my child. I yell.

I"m not in that situation 'teaching' my child, I"m protecting her in an emergency.

Elderly, possible disabled gentleman doing job in store, makes mistake in how to handle my child, I tell him firmly but politely 'no'. I remove my child.

My child learns that we say no, firmly and decisively if someone does something to our bodies that we don't like.

All the difference in the world, imo.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
Also, please raise your hand if being taught as a child to be "civilized" when people are touching you inappropriately (or have been manipulated to tolerate this to avoid "hurting the person's feelings") has hurt you or someone you know?

In my case, it's someone I know. <Raises hand>

<Raises hand>, too.

I see the point about not jumping straight into yelling and reacting harshly for every. little. thing.

But, as the OP has said, the guy was forcibly trying to *pry her daughter* *away from her*.

I think part of the reason some older people are "clueless," are because they grew up being expected to "respect their elders" and to submit to whatever their elders wanted to do to them.

It's kind of like grandparents who took a lot of interfering crap and criticism from their own parents -- so now that they're the grandparents they think it's "their turn" to disrespect everyone else and still get respect. In my own experience, it usually takes more than gentle politeness to deal with this sort of grandparent.

I can fully understand that they're confused ... the rules have changed and they didn't keep up. I'm all for having compassion -- as long as my having compassion doesn't interfere with my children's safety, space, or emotional integrity.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 

My loving, clueless, well-meaning father still tries to hug DS when he is in meltdown mode, despite knowing and being told that it doesn't help. He is absolutely clueless when it comes to interacting with people (sneaking suspicion he's on the spectrum, but certainly never diagnosed). Yelling at him would be so humiliating for him. I just tell him firmly that DS doesn't feel like hugging, or whatever.

But you KNOW your father is well-meaning. The OP doesn't know this greeter, he was a stranger, and doesn't know whether he is well-meaning or not. We don't know if he has a disability, we don't know if he is a predator, or possibly both (they aren't totally mutually exclusive). We know he was trying to take her child from her by physical force. That's all we know.


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## aran (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
Why can't you go through life wigging out on people crossing major boundaries?

My thoughts exactly. (And everything else laohaire said)

I have set clear boundaries with people when needed and have not always been able to be nice about it. Some people don't take hints or even nicely stated, but direct and clear, requests seriously. I just can't get my arms around why some posters think that raising the volume of one's voice is such an objectionable reaction.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
Also, please raise your hand if being taught as a child to be "civilized" when people are touching you inappropriately (or have been manipulated to tolerate this to avoid "hurting the person's feelings") has hurt you or someone you know?

In my case, it's someone I know. <Raises hand>


I don't think that teaching children to say no, firmly decisively, and removing themselves from the situation is teaching them to be manipulated. Alongside this, they can learn to yell if in trouble.

We're not talking of someone grooming her child. We're not talking about a possible abduction. We're talking of an elderly man in a store, who is supposed to be doing a job, but does it badly.

I guess that 'wigging out' is not a lesson I teach my children. I don't see that as child protection. My kids are absolutely not being taught to be polite at all costs, but they also are not being taught that yelling at people unnecessarily is OK. But our definitions of necessary and unnecessary are going to differ.









My job is to protect my young child. So, in difficult situations I have picked them up,firmly, clearly, decisively, and removed them from situations like the one the OP describes. They have learned that mama protects them, and that it is not OK for someone to cross that comfort boundary. But they don't need me to yell at someone in order to learn that.







Although, of course, in an emergency, a potential abduction, sure as heck I'd yell, and they'd witness that. But a situation that is not an abduction, nope. Not OK in my book.

My other concern would be that my kids would then internalize another message, that everyday people are out to 'get' them, and become more fearful. A fearful child is more of a target than a confident one, and teaching them to be more fearful as preschoolers is not something that I would want to do.


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## Freedom~Mama (Apr 6, 2008)

Oh Mama I totally feel for you! I would have done the same thing. My youngest is very shy and there is no way I would let some old man force a hug on her if she was crying and scared. Some people can be so dense, I am sorry you went through that. Going shopping at Walmart with two small kids is hard enough let alone weird old men trying to give them hugs!


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
I don't think that teaching children to say no, firmly decisively, and removing themselves from the situation is teaching them to be manipulated. Alongside this, they can learn to yell if in trouble.

We're not talking of someone grooming her child. We're not talking about a possible abduction. We're talking of an elderly man in a store, who is supposed to be doing a job, but does it badly.

I guess that 'wigging out' is not a lesson I teach my children. I don't see that as child protection. My kids are absolutely not being taught to be polite at all costs, but they also are not being taught that yelling at people unnecessarily is OK. But our definitions of necessary and unnecessary are going to differ.









My job is to protect my young child. So, in difficult situations I have picked them up,firmly, clearly, decisively, and removed them from situations like the one the OP describes. They have learned that mama protects them, and that it is not OK for someone to cross that comfort boundary. But they don't need me to yell at someone in order to learn that.







Although, of course, in an emergency, a potential abduction, sure as heck I'd yell, and they'd witness that. But a situation that is not an abduction, nope. Not OK in my book.

My other concern would be that my kids would then internalize another message, that everyday people are out to 'get' them, and become more fearful. A fearful child is more of a target than a confident one, and teaching them to be more fearful as preschoolers is not something that I would want to do.

Britishmum, you are perfectly expressing what I've been trying to say.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
I don't think that teaching children to say no, firmly decisively, and removing themselves from the situation is teaching them to be manipulated. Alongside this, they can learn to yell if in trouble.

The child WAS saying no (by screaming) and TRYING to remove herself (but too small to be effective).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
We're not talking of someone grooming her child. We're not talking about a possible abduction. We're talking of an elderly man in a store, who is supposed to be doing a job, but does it badly.

"Grooming" is effective when the child has already been taught that other people's feelings matter more than their bodily integrity. No, the Walmart greeter wasn't "grooming," but this experience and other experiences are all part of teaching the child what is acceptable and what isn't. When the parent teaches the child that Walmart greeters can forcibly hug them, and that their mothers will just stand there and say "No thank you" without actually protecting them, it's that much easier if another person DOES come along and try to "groom" them.

Also, not all sexual predators are the old-man sort. I personally have had the experience of "going further" than I was comfortable with, with a teenage boy, because I didn't want to hurt his feelings. That wasn't disasterous for me (since we didn't "go all the way" and also the boy was in fact a caring person, but definitely pressured me further than I wanted to go). Why did I worry more about his feelings than my bodily integrity? Well, I'm sure the answer is complex, but I apparently was taught that way, possibly by my own mother who was herself a victim of sexual abuse at a tragically young age.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
I guess that 'wigging out' is not a lesson I teach my children. I don't see that as child protection. My kids are absolutely not being taught to be polite at all costs, but they also are not being taught that yelling at people unnecessarily is OK. But our definitions of necessary and unnecessary are going to differ.









Yeah, that's true, we differ on that point. I see bodily integrity as a huge, big deal.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
My job is to protect my young child. So, in difficult situations I have picked them up,firmly, clearly, decisively, and removed them from situations like the one the OP describes. They have learned that mama protects them, and that it is not OK for someone to cross that comfort boundary. But they don't need me to yell at someone in order to learn that.







Although, of course, in an emergency, a potential abduction, sure as heck I'd yell, and they'd witness that. But a situation that is not an abduction, nope. Not OK in my book.

I guess here is again where we disagree. I consider a violation of bodliy integrity as an emergency, not just abductions. I don't see why yelling is such a terrible thing, or how prying children away is not a big deal.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
My other concern would be that my kids would then internalize another message, that everyday people are out to 'get' them, and become more fearful. A fearful child is more of a target than a confident one, and teaching them to be more fearful as preschoolers is not something that I would want to do.

If I were a child, I would feel more confident knowing my mother validated my feelings (extreme discomfort from a stranger forcibly taking me from my mother and physically touching me) and protected me accordingly, than in being taught that I was wrong to feel as I did.

I don't see the point in trying to pretend to my child that the world is a rosy place, and strangers trying to take them are just harmless nice old men.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
.

I My kids are absolutely not being taught to be polite at all costs, but they also are not being taught that yelling at people unnecessarily is OK.

The problem with this is that it sounds like the guy didn't back off UNTIL the OP yelled at him. Apparently, a little girl screaming and saying no and clinging to her mother while he tried to PULL HER AWAY was not enough for him to get a clue. I'm not going to get in a physical tug of war over my kid if yelling will solve the problem - which it did. It doesn't sound like "No thank you" was an option anymore - it was beyond that. In that situation, I would feel like my choices were to let the guy do whatever he was trying to do, yank my child away from him, hit the guy until he let go, or yell until he stopped. I think I would choose yelling first, before violence.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Laohaire is spot on!!









And I totally agree you need to teach personal boundaries at an early age. I see nothing wrong with raising my voice to someone who obviously wasn't getting the clue... I quite honestly would have done worse... I mean seriously, what warranted PRYING a child off their OWN MOTHER?

I would say that is an emergency situation.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSMa* 
Laohaire is spot on!!









And I totally agree you need to teach personal boundaries at an early age. I see nothing wrong with raising my voice to someone who obviously wasn't getting the clue... I quite honestly would have done worse... I mean seriously, what warranted PRYING a child off their OWN MOTHER?

I would say that is an emergency situation.

Yes, I agree totally. I guess some people just don't see the prying-away thing as a big deal -- and it's hard for me to understand why they don't. Maybe because I don't do forced separations with my kids, but I know quite a few people who seem to feel okay about leaving their child crying for them.

I also agree with eclipse that yelling is preferable to physical violence.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
The child WAS saying no (by screaming) and TRYING to remove herself (but too small to be effective).

Yeah, that's true, we differ on that point. I see bodily integrity as a huge, big deal.

I guess here is again where we disagree. I consider a violation of bodliy integrity as an emergency, not just abductions. I don't see why yelling is such a terrible thing, or how prying children away is not a big deal.


If someone disagrees about how to handle a situation such as this, it does not mean that they do not see bodily integrity as a huge, big deal. Nor does it mean that they are not doing their utmost to protect their children. I have to say that I find this comment highly insulting.

I too work hard to both protect my children and develop the skills and confidence to protect themselves. As do all the other posters, I presume, who are saying that they do not agree that yelling was the best action to take.

Nor has anyone said that prying children away is not a big deal. I would have picked up the child, firmly, clearly, and decisively. I would have told the man "No." in a clear, firm voice. I would have talked to the store manager, and asked that the man be dealt with as appropriate, so that he never did it again.

I would not have yelled at him.

That does not mean that I do not believe bodily integrity to be of the utmost importance, nor that I don't do everything within my power to protect my children. I actually think that yelling at a man such as this would not help my child in the long term, and if only for that reason, would have restrained myself.

Disagreeing over how best to handle situations like this does not mean that only those who would yell are people who appreciate issues of child protection and abuse.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Yes, I agree totally. I guess some people just don't see the prying-away thing as a big deal -- and it's hard for me to understand why they don't. Maybe because I don't do forced separations with my kids, but I know quite a few people who seem to feel okay about leaving their child crying for them.

I also agree with eclipse that yelling is preferable to physical violence.

Not one person has said that prying a child from a parent is not a big deal. But not everyone believes that yelling was the best option. There is a world of difference between those two things.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
I guess that 'wigging out' is not a lesson I teach my children.

It's not supposed to be a lesson, it's just life. Some of us feel stress and act a certain way. Usually when I wig out, it's a stress reaction, and it sounds like it was with this poster. She can evaluate it now, and think of a different way to do next time, sure.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon* 
I think it's weird so many are worked up over compassion. something our society lacks GREATLY!







I get that your DD was scared but geesh, what is yelling at someone for trying to comfort her teaching her?









There is irony here, really. Who says she was trying to teach her child anything in particular? It was her reaction. The point I got from the original poster's statement was that she was upset and angry, she reacted harshly, she felt badly about it to a point. Why isn't she deserving of compassion as well as the greeter?


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
It's not supposed to be a lesson, it's just life. Some of us feel stress and act a certain way. Usually when I wig out, it's a stress reaction, and it sounds like it was with this poster. She can evaluate it now, and think of a different way to do next time, sure.

There is irony here, really. Who says she was trying to teach her child anything in particular? It was her reaction. The point I got from the original poster's statement was that she was upset and angry, she reacted harshly, she felt badly about it to a point. Why isn't she deserving of compassion as well as the greeter?

That was the impression that I got, but many responses seem to be that she did the right thing, it was not something she needs to evaluate and do better with next time. And that those of us who feel that she should evaluate her response, are simply not understanding child protection issues and are saying that what the guy did was not any big deal.









I didn't get the impression that she was trying to teach her child anything. But no matter what we intend, we do teach our children from our reactions. Some posters think that yelling at the man taught her child a valuable and useful lesson. I personally disagree. I think it is counter productive, and is not the useful lesson that speaking firmly and clearly would have been.


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## puddle (Aug 30, 2007)

Honestly, we could all go back and forth for eternity on this thread about whether or not the OP should have yelled or not. It doesn't really matter if she should have or not, she did. In the same situation again, she would probably do the same thing again, because no matter what she thinks of her response, it was instinctive and not exactly planned or thought through.

The fact is, we all have our own cultural paradigms that we use to interpret her reaction, and our cultures vary so much from region to region. In some places, yelling at an old man is horrific no matter what the circumstances. In others, asserting yourself by raising your voice is a common and not entirely unexpected response. I think we all agree that the OP's child needed her protection and that other people deserve respect and compassion. How that is played out is going to look differently for all of us. It doesn't mean that some of us are more compassionate than others or that some of us care about their children more than others. We just live different lives in different worlds.


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## beansricerevolt (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
If someone disagrees about how to handle a situation such as this, it does not mean that they do not see bodily integrity as a huge, big deal. Nor does it mean that they are not doing their utmost to protect their children. I have to say that I find this comment highly insulting.

I too work hard to both protect my children and develop the skills and confidence to protect themselves. As do all the other posters, I presume, who are saying that they do not agree that yelling was the best action to take.

Nor has anyone said that prying children away is not a big deal. I would have picked up the child, firmly, clearly, and decisively. I would have told the man "No." in a clear, firm voice. I would have talked to the store manager, and asked that the man be dealt with as appropriate, so that he never did it again.

I would not have yelled at him.

That does not mean that I do not believe bodily integrity to be of the utmost importance, nor that I don't do everything within my power to protect my children. I actually think that yelling at a man such as this would not help my child in the long term, and if only for that reason, would have restrained myself.

Disagreeing over how best to handle situations like this does not mean that only those who would yell are people who appreciate issues of child protection and abuse.









:


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daisymama12* 
"Thanks, we're fine, DD is ready to go home. DD, let's go, sweetie."

And if you want to reinforce the boundaries issue, I (hope) I would say nicely, "dd, you don't have to hug if you don't want to. Let's go."

My background is not North American, so that may explain it, but I see the elderly man as trying to be helpful, misguided as he was. I find it sad that there is "clapping" for him being yelled at. I get that the OP was frustrated, and annoyed (could've been me, my ds was the same way), but I don't get the congratulations for yelling at him.

I hope his manager was kind when he explained how to better interact with children.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *puddle* 
Honestly, we could all go back and forth for eternity on this thread about whether or not the OP should have yelled or not. It doesn't really matter if she should have or not, she did. In the same situation again, she would probably do the same thing again, because no matter what she thinks of her response, it was instinctive and not exactly planned or thought through.

The fact is, we all have our own cultural paradigms that we use to interpret her reaction, and our cultures vary so much from region to region. In some places, yelling at an old man is horrific no matter what the circumstances. In others, asserting yourself by raising your voice is a common and not entirely unexpected response. I think we all agree that the OP's child needed her protection and that other people deserve respect and compassion. How that is played out is going to look differently for all of us. It doesn't mean that some of us are more compassionate than others or that some of us care about their children more than others. We just live different lives in different worlds.










You know, this is a really great way of looking at it. I don't honestly think that anyone who wouldn't yell in such a situation, actually would see it as "no big deal' for someone to pry their child away from them.

I realize that most people here at MDC, do agree that prying children away from their mothers is unacceptable. I guess I was just musing, in my previous post, about the fact that there are lots of lots of people who probably don't see anything wrong with disrespecting a child in this way.

Which may explain why the elderly man seemed to have no clue that he needed to stop. There are lots and lots of people who have never learned to take children seriously.

I'm honestly not sure whether or not I would yell in such a situation. When our oldest was only 5, we had a situation (in a home Bible-study) where she told dh and me "No" about something, and before dh and I could say anything, another woman (who was developmentally-challenged) grabbed onto dd and wouldn't let go, and started lecturing her about how she needed to listen to her mom and dad.

I was quietly and gently telling the woman, "Okay, that's enough!" but she was continuing to hang on to, and lecture, dd -- then dh yelled, "Take your hands off her!" I must say, his approach got instant results, whereas my more gentle approach obviously wasn't doing the trick.

So, in my case, I tend to fault myself for not having enough balls to deal with these disrespectful people head-on. And I do tend to applaud people like the OP, who find their voice and fearlessly use it.


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
If someone disagrees about how to handle a situation such as this, it does not mean that they do not see bodily integrity as a huge, big deal. Nor does it mean that they are not doing their utmost to protect their children. I have to say that I find this comment highly insulting.

I too work hard to both protect my children and develop the skills and confidence to protect themselves. As do all the other posters, I presume, who are saying that they do not agree that yelling was the best action to take.

Nor has anyone said that prying children away is not a big deal. I would have picked up the child, firmly, clearly, and decisively. I would have told the man "No." in a clear, firm voice. I would have talked to the store manager, and asked that the man be dealt with as appropriate, so that he never did it again.

I would not have yelled at him.

That does not mean that I do not believe bodily integrity to be of the utmost importance, nor that I don't do everything within my power to protect my children. I actually think that yelling at a man such as this would not help my child in the long term, and if only for that reason, would have restrained myself.

Disagreeing over how best to handle situations like this does not mean that only those who would yell are people who appreciate issues of child protection and abuse.









:


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I agree, but only to some extent. Many of us have deeply programmed responses to stress, and cannot alter them. Or often, we don't want to. Either because we think our original response was fine, which settles the matter, or becasue we don't want to put in the effort to learn to do better next time (presuming that we think there is a better way.)

It depends largely on whether the OP decides that this wasn't the best way to handle the situation, or whether she, on reflection, decides that what she did was right, and so would do the same faced with such a stressful situation again. I do think that we can reprogram ourselves to respond differently in future, if we really want to. I know that I have become better at self-control when under stress as I've matured and worked on it. I'm not saying that the OP should decide to respond differently, but only that if she did decide in theory that she could have responded differently, she could make that change in herself if she really wanted to.

She said she felt badly, kinda. So it seemed to me that she was looking for responses here to help her work that through. Only she can come to a final decision about that. Hopefully this thread has given her, along with the rest of us, lots of food for thought.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

OP, I think you did the right thing. I only hope that I can stand up for my kids as well as you did if I'm ever in that kind of situation.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
*It depends largely on whether the OP decides that this wasn't the best way to handle the situation, or whether she, on reflection, decides that what she did was right, and so would do the same faced with such a stressful situation again.* I do think that we can reprogram ourselves to respond differently in future, if we really want to. I know that I have become better at self-control when under stress as I've matured and worked on it. I'm not saying that the OP should decide to respond differently, but only that if she did decide in theory that she could have responded differently, she could make that change in herself if she really wanted to.

*She said she felt badly, kinda. So it seemed to me that she was looking for responses here to help her work that through. Only she can come to a final decision about that. Hopefully this thread has given her, along with the rest of us, lots of food for thought.







*

I have reflected on this for a long time. I immediately felt badly for yelling at him, I was sorry I had to resort to that type of behavior to get his attention. I DO feel I acted appropriately in this type of situation. If I had it to do over would I yell at him again? Yes. Why? Because this man was not listening to me the first time I told him to leave her alone and then he physically touched my daughter without her/my permission, granted he was trying to console her (in his own weird way) but he obviously could not read body language or understand a crying child clinging and gripping to her mother's leg does NOT want to be hugged, especially after I told him she was shy to begin with. I do feel badly it came that extent, does that make sense?
Also I want to thank everyone for their opinions, whether or not I agree with them does not matter. It gives me something to think about for sure and I can understand WHY some mothers on here would not yell. I was not in the "teaching my daughter a lesson" mode when I yelled at him. I do however understand I set an example for my children in my everyday actions and I hope she understands WHY I yelled at him. I am by nature not a yeller, I am quite patient and understanding but I have a limit and that man set me over that limit. Like I said earlier I had an internal red flag waving telling me this guy just does not feel right to me and I reacted in a way to keep my daughter safe and to console her from a stranger who surprised her and was trying to touch her. Did she understand he was trying to hug her? Absolutely not. Does my child have manners and is capable of saying "no thank you."? Absolutely. Was I going to stand there and make her say no thank you? Not at all. There is a time and a place for manners and this was not one of them in my opinion.
Thank you all for all your understanding and feedback. I do honestly appreciate it and it will give me something to think about should I ever have to go through that again. Have a very happy Thanksgiving!


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I guess what I see is women being taught to be nice at all costs, and feeling badly for yelling, even if they did so to protect their own children. I yelled at a homeless person once selling their newspaper, b/c he kept getting in my face after I said "No thank you" nicely. I was waiting to cross the street and felt like I had nowhere to go. So I raised my voice and said "I! said! No!". I wasn't happy about it, but I was happy that for once, I didn't feel guilty about not being nice. Women often put themselves in danger b/c they are afraid to _not_ be nice to people. And that's all I'll say..sorry. I realize you want to end the thread but I think it's an interesting topic and agree that it's complicated. I also feel very strongly about what I mentioned above. I don't react to stress well either and I strive to be more calm, but when it comes to confrontation wrt safety, that's a whole different ball game and I am actually _less_ likely to raise my voice. And frankly I'd like to change that.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
I guess what I see is women being taught to be nice at all costs, and feeling badly for yelling, even if they did so to protect their own children.

Yes, the "be nice at all costs"-thing definitely seems to be programmed into me.

So much so that, years ago when I was waiting at a bus-stop, and some man asked me if I was married, and then said (as I was getting onto my bus), "Wanna mess around with a married man?" --

I politely said, "No, thank you" ... and I still feel kinda stupid for being so polite about it. I mean, I guess I didn't endanger myself. He didn't follow me onto the bus or anything ... it just seems so stupid that, when he said such an insulting thing, I still felt compelled to be "polite" in my dealings with him.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh I am not "programmed" into being nice, trust me I have had my moments and I do stick up for myself without hesitation, but I TRY to be polite under certain circumstances. If a man asked me if I wanted to mess around I would skip the whole polite part and let him know where I stand on that matter....get my point? However, in this particular situation under those particular circumstances I TRIED being nice but once he crossed the line of physical contact without consent it all went out the window.


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

I am sorry that this happened to your child







I would have been scared if I were her, too.

I was abused as a child, and I agree with the poster who said that touching does not always start off as sexual. When my Grandfather started touching me, it was just as a Grandfather would, it was only later on that it progressed to being sexual









At any rate, I do not have children, but I understand your need to protect them. I believe that children should have their personal space respected. I am a teacher and it irks me sometimes when parents tell their kids that they must give me a hug. Why? If they do not want to hug me, they are well within their right not to do so. If one of my students wants to hug me, they will, and they usually do many times during the day. But telling them they have to? I just don't get it







: Just because they are small does not mean that they should not get to control their personal space.

None of us knows how we would have acted in the OP's situation. Older person or not, she did what she felt she had to to protect her child, who was obviously very distraught. When I was a Nanny I raised my voice exactly once. And that was when she was running in to the street. It got her attention very quickly. So I see that raising your voice does have a time and a place. It is not like the OP was yelling nasty things to him or anything, that is the difference, in my mind.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *southernmommie* 
The "No thank you" does. If it were you, what would you do in her position?

The 'no thank you' doesn't say 'don't mess with me.' It says, 'no thanks, DD doesn't want a sticker right now.'

I get that it was frustrating, and that your DD (and therefore, you) were upset, OP, but I think your reaction was a bit harsh.

I don't buy into the "nice at all costs" stuff. It's possible to be assertive without yelling at someone.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *laohaire*


Also, please raise your hand if being taught as a child to be "civilized" when people are touching you inappropriately (or have been manipulated to tolerate this to avoid "hurting the person's feelings") has hurt you or someone you know?

In my case, it's someone I know. <Raises hand>


raising hand.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Marylizah*


Ok, trying not to get heated here. But to me I see a very big difference between teaching your kids not to let people touch them inappropriately and helping them learn to set boundaries with other people when the touching is not desired, but not sexual in nature.

In the first case, by any means necessary, kids should yell, scream, etc. Be taught that there is nothing they can't say to their parents, that no one should touch them in private areas without their consent.

In the other, they can learn to say, "No thank you, I don't want a hug" without yelling and humiliating the well-meaning individual.

You can't go through life "wigging out" on those clueless people who think all kids or young people like hugs, and surely even as adults we've all had those moments where we have to handle people who want to hug when we don't.

My loving, clueless, well-meaning father still tries to hug DS when he is in meltdown mode, despite knowing and being told that it doesn't help. He is absolutely clueless when it comes to interacting with people (sneaking suspicion he's on the spectrum, but certainly never diagnosed). Yelling at him would be so humiliating for him. I just tell him firmly that DS doesn't feel like hugging, or whatever.

Honestly, some people truly are clueless. I think this guy really did believe his job was to make everyone smile, even if the kid was melting down. I agree with the PP who said that she hoped his manager was gentle with him. I also hope he did not lose his job in these tough economic times.


But how does the two year old child know the diffrence between the abductor and the clueless old man? I mean, its ok for SOME men to grab you and drag you away from your mother while youre screaming for them not to, but not others?

Quote:



Originally Posted by *laohaire*


It's well-known that predators get children used to being touched non-sexually at first. Hugs, holding hands. Backrubs as a transition point. (Before anyone jumps on me about suggesting this Walmart greeter was a predator, I'm not - but I AM saying that drawing a distinction between unwanted touching that an adult would judge as sexual in nature vs unwanted touching that an adult would not judge as sexual in nature is not helpful to the safety of children).

But it's ok to touch other places without their consent - indeed, with their explicit nonconsent? And here, it's too easy for a child to internalize this lesson and not be able to discern the exact moment when touch is sexual in nature - and if they are, they are already too brainwashed and shamed by the predator.

Ignoring the concept of a small child melting down being expected here to say "No thank you," how will this same small child judge a well-meaning individual from one who is not?

Why can't you go through life wigging out on people crossing major boundaries? It would hurt their feelings?

If a strange man forcibly tried to hug me, you can bet I would react with more than a smile and a "No thank you." Why would I do less for my child? And of course my child requires more protection than I do myself (because she is small and not as strong).

Between humiliating my father and humiliating my daughter - sorry, Dad. You're a grownup. You have choices. I've heard and read way too many stories of people who as children were abused but whose parents didn't protect them because, after all, it was Grandpa (or whoever) and "we don't want to embarass him."

Yes, some people are clueless. I protect my child against everyone, not just the ones who know better. Clueless people are a threat too. *I will not teach my daughter "you have a right to your bodily integrity UNLESS the person is well-meaning, clueless, or your Grandpa."*


Yes, this.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Britishmum*


I think there is a huge difference. Someone down the street is trying to abduct my child. I yell.

I"m not in that situation 'teaching' my child, I"m protecting her in an emergency.

Elderly, possible disabled gentleman doing job in store, makes mistake in how to handle my child, I tell him firmly but politely 'no'. I remove my child.

My child learns that we say no, firmly and decisively if someone does something to our bodies that we don't like.

All the difference in the world, imo.


Again, Im just not sure that the child will know the diffrence. To a small child, a strange man prying her from her mother IS an emergancy, her fight or flight response was activitated no doubt.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*


You know, this is a really great way of looking at it. I don't honestly think that anyone who wouldn't yell in such a situation, actually would see it as "no big deal' for someone to pry their child away from them.

I realize that most people here at MDC, do agree that prying children away from their mothers is unacceptable. I guess I was just musing, in my previous post, about the fact that there are lots of lots of people who probably don't see anything wrong with disrespecting a child in this way.

Which may explain why the elderly man seemed to have no clue that he needed to stop. There are lots and lots of people who have never learned to take children seriously.

I'm honestly not sure whether or not I would yell in such a situation. When our oldest was only 5, we had a situation (in a home Bible-study) where she told dh and me "No" about something, and before dh and I could say anything, another woman (who was developmentally-challenged) grabbed onto dd and wouldn't let go, and started lecturing her about how she needed to listen to her mom and dad.

I was quietly and gently telling the woman, "Okay, that's enough!" but she was continuing to hang on to, and lecture, dd -- then dh yelled, "Take your hands off her!" I must say, his approach got instant results, whereas my more gentle approach obviously wasn't doing the trick.

So, in my case, I tend to fault myself for not having enough balls to deal with these disrespectful people head-on. And I do tend to applaud people like the OP, who find their voice and fearlessly use it.


Yes, this is me too. I wish I reacted more strongly more often. I have had situations where I felt ashamed later that I didnt protect my child/ren good enough.

Anyone who has read "protecting the gift"....no matter how nicely he did it, he discounted no, which is one of the major red flags.

I thought about this thread today...while at walmart! My stepdad saw us and snuck up on us, I spun arond to see a man with his hands on myshopping cart...with my baby inside! In the split second before I realized it was grandpa, he almost got cold cocked! And I wouldnt have felt bad! The protective instinct was that fast and that strong. Instincts dont have time to reason, question or observe social niceities. Just saying.


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## lovbeingamommy (Jun 17, 2007)

Seriously, if that were me in that situation. Not that it every would be becasue I have this unmistakable body language that says DON'T even touch my baby!! But if it did happen...well, either I would have started screaming, or a would have slugged him. I know that sounds super bad, but I'm way to overprotective of my child when it comes to strangers. I mean I'm trying to srart teaching him about stranger-danger and this sort of stuff happening doesn't help. A friendly smile and warm welcome to Walmart woulk be perfectly acceptable to me.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

I probably would have yelled. And if he were actually trying to remove my child from my protection, I would have physically stayed his hand as well.

But that's not the biggest thing that is bothering me about this thread. Some are arguing that yelling is not polite or respectful, while referring to this man as a person with a disability. I think we have to re-evaluate how we think of other people, of "the kind of people who work at Wal-Mart". We have some serious class issues when we start referring to a person as disabled or feeble when there is no evidence to point in that direction. For no other real reason that I can see other than that he has a less-than-desirable underpaying job at a store most of don't like even though some of us are forced to shop there. Simply not yelling at a man is not indicative of respect if in our minds we automatically assume he is disabled or has dementia in order to be working as a Wal-Mart greeter.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
I think we have to re-evaluate how we think of other people, of "the kind of people who work at Wal-Mart". We have some serious class issues when we start referring to a person as disabled or feeble when there is no evidence to point in that direction. For no other real reason that I can see other than that he has a less-than-desirable underpaying job at a store most of don't like even though some of us are forced to shop there.

I hear ya, but to be fair, WalMart DOES (or at least DID...) have a policy of hiring people with disabilities to be their greeters. And if they don't - they certainly implied it with their TV ads years ago (I haven't watched TV for years, so I can't comment on recent commercials). Certainly at our local Walmart, 2 of the 3 greeters on staff there have obvious disabilities.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
I probably would have yelled. And if he were actually trying to remove my child from my protection, I would have physically stayed his hand as well.

But that's not the biggest thing that is bothering me about this thread. Some are arguing that yelling is not polite or respectful, while referring to this man as a person with a disability. I think we have to re-evaluate how we think of other people, of "the kind of people who work at Wal-Mart". We have some serious class issues when we start referring to a person as disabled or feeble when there is no evidence to point in that direction. For no other real reason that I can see other than that he has a less-than-desirable underpaying job at a store most of don't like even though some of us are forced to shop there. Simply not yelling at a man is not indicative of respect if in our minds we automatically assume he is disabled or has dementia in order to be working as a Wal-Mart greeter.

No...I'm not basing it off anything other than the walmart's here hire exclusively people with disabilities or senior citizens with dementia for their greeters...I know this cause we did a volunteer project at christmas last year with school for these greeters.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

It was the inability to detect the social cues that made people think he perhaps had a disability.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
raising hand.

But how does the two year old child know the diffrence between the abductor and the clueless old man? I mean, its ok for SOME men to grab you and drag you away from your mother while youre screaming for them not to, but not others?


Ok, I'm getting tired of this, so I'll try to say it one last time, clearly.

What I try to teach my child is this:

No one gets to touch you without consent. If you don't consent, they should stop immediately.

HOWEVER. Most people who try to touch you without your consent are not trying to hurt you. Start with a firm "No, thanks" and move from there if they don't stop.

The starting point for this conversation is not screaming.

Please stop implying that I'm teaching my child to be polite INSTEAD of teaching him to protect himself. I'm trying to do both.

Please stop implying that I said that the OP's child should have told the old man "No thanks". I never said she should have had her hysterical, crying child do that. I was saying that if it had been me, I would have modeled a gentler approach to the situation, starting with a firm No thanks and going from there-- allowing my kid to witness and learn my approach to dealing with people getting in my/our personal space.

Please stop implying that those of us who value civility and politeness and respect for fellow human beings (clueless and rude as they might be) are delusional to risks to our children and are putting our kids at risk of abuse. We're not. We're teaching them life skills that will come in handy as they have to learn to deal with all kinds of people.

Here's where the respect thing comes in. I would not have handled the situation the way the OP did. In her post, she implied that she wondered if she'd handled the situation well. I told her what I thought. We clearly don't agree. I respect her right to deal with her kids and those situations any way she sees fit, though I do not have to agree with her approach. I would really appreciate it if those who do agree with her could extend the same courtesy to me/us who don't.


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## Peppermint Leaf (Jan 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bunnyflakes* 
I am sorry that this happened to your child







I would have been scared if I were her, too.

I was abused as a child, and I agree with the poster who said that touching does not always start off as sexual. When my Grandfather started touching me, it was just as a Grandfather would, it was only later on that it progressed to being sexual









At any rate, I do not have children, but I understand your need to protect them. I believe that children should have their personal space respected. I am a teacher and it irks me sometimes when parents tell their kids that they must give me a hug. Why? If they do not want to hug me, they are well within their right not to do so. If one of my students wants to hug me, they will, and they usually do many times during the day. But telling them they have to? I just don't get it







: Just because they are small does not mean that they should not get to control their personal space.

None of us knows how we would have acted in the OP's situation. Older person or not, she did what she felt she had to to protect her child, who was obviously very distraught. When I was a Nanny I raised my voice exactly once. And that was when she was running in to the street. It got her attention very quickly. So I see that raising your voice does have a time and a place. It is not like the OP was yelling nasty things to him or anything, that is the difference, in my mind.

-

oh Bunnyflakes









You are correct --- its just not acceptable to touch total strangers particularly children.

I think the OP had a reflex action that many moms including myself would have ...anyone attempting to remove a child from moms arms must suffer the consequences.







You dont need to be polite!!







And you set a perfect example of when someone is trying to touch/take a child make a lot of noise so that it stops instantly. If its a total stranger --- ah no politeness needs to be happening-- scream bloody murder !!!!

Everyone should be teaching their child to scream and make a fuss if someone is trying to touch/take them!!! It doesn't matter that the original intent was to do something nice!

How many child abductions would have been stopped if we taught our children this!!

Walmart needs to do better training.

I still maintain OP - you did the right thing!!!! and I am glad you brought it to the attention of the management -- it needs to be dealt with!! ... particularly since this greeter is under the illusion that its his job to pry children from their parents!!!


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
Ok, I'm getting tired of this, so I'll try to say it one last time, clearly.

What I try to teach my child is this:

No one gets to touch you without consent. If you don't consent, they should stop immediately.

HOWEVER. Most people who try to touch you without your consent are not trying to hurt you. Start with a firm "No, thanks" and move from there if they don't stop.

The starting point for this conversation is not screaming.

Please stop implying that I'm teaching my child to be polite INSTEAD of teaching him to protect himself. I'm trying to do both.

Please stop implying that I said that the OP's child should have told the old man "No thanks". I never said she should have had her hysterical, crying child do that. I was saying that if it had been me, I would have modeled a gentler approach to the situation, starting with a firm No thanks and going from there-- allowing my kid to witness and learn my approach to dealing with people getting in my/our personal space.

Please stop implying that those of us who value civility and politeness and respect for fellow human beings (clueless and rude as they might be) are delusional to risks to our children and are putting our kids at risk of abuse. We're not. We're teaching them life skills that will come in handy as they have to learn to deal with all kinds of people.

Here's where the respect thing comes in. I would not have handled the situation the way the OP did. In her post, she implied that she wondered if she'd handled the situation well. I told her what I thought. We clearly don't agree. I respect her right to deal with her kids and those situations any way she sees fit, though I do not have to agree with her approach. I would really appreciate it if those who do agree with her could extend the same courtesy to me/us who don't.









:

Thank you for posting this Marylizah, I was getting frustrated trying to explain myself and this is exactly what I wanted to say.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
I was saying that if it had been me, I would have modeled a gentler approach to the situation, starting with a firm No thanks and going from there-- allowing my kid to witness and learn my approach to dealing with people getting in my/our personal space.

But that IS what the OP did. She didn't yell until the man had ignored "no" several times.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

*Quote:*


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
But that IS what the OP did. She didn't yell until the man had ignored "no" several times.









:

i think she was a plenty polite. polite (rightly) goes out the door pretty fast when some strange man has their hands on your child trying to remove them from your arms.

i think it was a great thing that the op's dd saw her being a protective mama bear. i don't think it's a bad thing for our kids to see us get fierce when it's indicated. she did try to be gentle for a moment, and that was obviously not working. her kid witnessed and learned that mama will not tolerate some weird dude TAKING HER from her, and that mama is not afraid to stand up for her.


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## Ruthie's momma (May 2, 2008)

Don't feel badly momma! You did what you had to in order to keep your LO safe...I hope that I would react the same way if in a similar situation. Like PPs have stated, I don't understand why some adults feel free to touch young people...when they know that any adult would stop them in their tracks!


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
And I feel badly....kinda. My oldest daughter is 2.5 and VERY shy and likes her personal space. She was already upset because she lost her favorite binkie before we left for Walmart. As we were going inside the store she was still wimpering and the greeter, an older gentleman, said "Little girl would you like a sticker?" And she FLIPPED out, screamed, and grabbed my leg and buried her head in my butt (yeah, it was lovely) I smiled and said "No thank you." He insisted on giving my youngest a sticker, which she ate entirely (yes, she LOVES paper.) Anyway, my oldest was still shaky as we were doing the self-check out and all of a sudden she grabbed my legs again and shrieked...yep, the greeter was back. He said "You are still crying? You must be having a bad day. Let me give you a hug." He actually bent down to pry her from me and I stopped him dead in his tracks by yelling "Don't touch her and don't even talk to her. Please leave me alone NOW!" He stood up and said "I was just trying to do my job lady. He walked off and then I had a crowd of people staring at me, two girls screaming because they had never heard their mother yell like that before.







: Anyway, I feel terrible for yelling at him, but geez, could he NOT see she was scared to death of him? Sorry, rant over. I just had to get this off my chest.


I really understand you for feeling badly. But, he should not have tried to force himself on your daughter. So, you reacted on instinct to protect her. Please, don't beat yourself up for that. Everything is going to be okay. He was trying to help, but he should have just talked sweetly to your child. There was nothing wrong with what he said, as all of it was out of kindness. However, I had a problem with him trying to pry your daughter away from you. That would have upset me, too. I hope she finds her favorite bankie, and I hope things get better.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
I probably would have yelled. And if he were actually trying to remove my child from my protection, I would have physically stayed his hand as well.

But that's not the biggest thing that is bothering me about this thread. Some are arguing that yelling is not polite or respectful, while referring to this man as a person with a disability. I think we have to re-evaluate how we think of other people, of "the kind of people who work at Wal-Mart". We have some serious class issues when we start referring to a person as disabled or feeble when there is no evidence to point in that direction. For no other real reason that I can see other than that he has a less-than-desirable underpaying job at a store most of don't like even though some of us are forced to shop there. Simply not yelling at a man is not indicative of respect if in our minds we automatically assume he is disabled or has dementia in order to be working as a Wal-Mart greeter.

People have said that maybe he has a disability, or that the fact that he behaved like that coupled with hte job that he does, where Walmart hire people with disabilities often to do that job, makes them wonder.

I have relatives who work at Walmart. Not for one moment do I think of people who work there as being 'a kind of person who works at Walmart'.

But the fact is, that Walmart often employs disabled people to work at jobs like greeters. And this man didn't read social cues. So, it is likely that he may be disabled.

There is nothing wrong with that line of thinking whatsoever.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
Ok, I'm getting tired of this, so I'll try to say it one last time, clearly.

What I try to teach my child is this:

No one gets to touch you without consent. If you don't consent, they should stop immediately.

HOWEVER. Most people who try to touch you without your consent are not trying to hurt you. Start with a firm "No, thanks" and move from there if they don't stop.

The starting point for this conversation is not screaming.

Please stop implying that I'm teaching my child to be polite INSTEAD of teaching him to protect himself. I'm trying to do both.

Please stop implying that I said that the OP's child should have told the old man "No thanks". I never said she should have had her hysterical, crying child do that. I was saying that if it had been me, I would have modeled a gentler approach to the situation, starting with a firm No thanks and going from there-- allowing my kid to witness and learn my approach to dealing with people getting in my/our personal space.

Please stop implying that those of us who value civility and politeness and respect for fellow human beings (clueless and rude as they might be) are delusional to risks to our children and are putting our kids at risk of abuse. We're not. We're teaching them life skills that will come in handy as they have to learn to deal with all kinds of people.

Here's where the respect thing comes in. I would not have handled the situation the way the OP did. In her post, she implied that she wondered if she'd handled the situation well. I told her what I thought. We clearly don't agree. I respect her right to deal with her kids and those situations any way she sees fit, though I do not have to agree with her approach. I would really appreciate it if those who do agree with her could extend the same courtesy to me/us who don't.

ITA.

We may disagree about appropriate responses to stressful situations, but we all want to protect our children and teach them to protect themselves. I've not read one post here where I've thought that the poster didn't 'get it' when it comes to child protection. We just differ on our opinion of the right way to handle difficult situations, and what our children might learn from a yelling response. Some see that as a positive lesson for a child, some of us see it as a negative one. But nobody is ignoring the issue of child protection or teaching their child to be polite at the expense of their safety.

I personally want my child to see me handle situations such as this firmly, decisively, and clearly, but not exhibiting fight or flight responses such as yelling. Aside from the fact that I think it is wrong and unnecessary to yell at a Walmart greeter, no matter if he's clueless, I think a 2 yo just learns fear from such an experience, and has no measure to know what justifies that fight or flight response in future. I would worry that my child would then not know who to fear next. I know my kids would have started worrying about every worker in every store after an experience where I yelled. But then, that's my kids, used to my way of dealing with stress, and my opinion. Others think that a 2 yo would take a good lesson from mum yelling - that you stand up for yourself and don't let anyone do anything to your body that you dislike.

Maybe there is no right or wrong answer. Our children don't learn self protection skills from just one incident. There are a myriad of different experiences that form our children's personalities and abilities to take care of themselves. We are all doing our best to instil these qualities and skills in our children, but we all take a different route to that end.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
But that IS what the OP did. She didn't yell until the man had ignored "no" several times.

It seemed to me like she said "no thanks" initially when he offered the sticker, did her shopping, and then yelled at him when he approached DD the second time. I did not get where she said no "several times."


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## homeschoolAK (Oct 23, 2008)

Has it occured to anyone that most child molesters don't get caught!!

I would not only have yelled, there would have been a physical encounter if anyone EVER tried to pry my child off my leg!!!!!!! Especially if I had already told that person once to stay away!! Just the thought gives me the creaps!! The world is full of phycos! A young child can not protect itself, I say well done to the OP for sticking up and protecting her child!!


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Again, she didn't tell him to stay away. She told him "no thanks" when he offered DD a sticker. Unless he's a mind reader, I'm guessing he took that to mean, "No thanks, DD doesn't want a sticker right now," not "stay away from my children!"


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolAK* 
Has it occured to anyone that most child molesters don't get caught!!

I would not only have yelled, there would have been a physical encounter if anyone EVER tried to pry my child off my leg!!!!!!! Especially if I had already told that person once to stay away!! Just the thought gives me the creaps!! The world is full of phycos! A young child can not protect itself, I say well done to the OP for sticking up and protecting her child!!

I wish people would stop freaking out and talking about child molesters. Who said this man was a child molester? What if he was a misguided old man why do we immediately have to label him as a child molester?


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
It seemed to me like she said "no thanks" initially when he offered the sticker, did her shopping, and then yelled at him when he approached DD the second time. I did not get where she said no "several times."


She didn't yell when he approached her DD the second time, she yelled when he tried to take her daughter away from her, while her daughter was screaming no. He was ignoring the "no" that her daughter was clearly expressing. I don't really understand why anyone thinks a firm "no thank you" would work when her daughter clearly expressing her discomfort wasn't.


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## Sotevenn (Jan 4, 2007)

Good for you mytwogirls! I tend to overthink sometimes when confronted with a strange situation and worry if something like that happened I'd be too stunned and confused to react. A few times I've reacted quickly when something odd happens & feel it's a good example for my daughter - it's really hard to give the perfect response, but I think that was really great to step in & stop him. You can always explain later that yelling might not have been the best choice (if she even noticed), but protecting your child in a strange situation definitely was. I also grew up where manners & the feelings of the other person were more important than my own & it's very hard to get over that and react to the situation instead of social protocols. I hope I can do better with that for my kids so they learn to stand up for themselves.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baltic_ballet* 
I wish people would stop freaking out and talking about child molesters. Who said this man was a child molester? What if he was a misguided old man why do we immediately have to label him as a child molester?

I don't think anyone is assuming he was a child molester, just pointing out that he could have had a purpose that was more nefarious than a clueless old man trying to comfort a little girl. And since the OP said she had red flags going off about him, I think it's reasonable that she reacted the way she did.


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## Peppermint Leaf (Jan 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolAK* 
Has it occured to anyone that most child molesters don't get caught!!

I would not only have yelled, there would have been a physical encounter if anyone EVER tried to pry my child off my leg!!!!!!! Especially if I had already told that person once to stay away!! Just the thought gives me the creaps!! The world is full of phycos! A young child can not protect itself, I say well done to the OP for sticking up and protecting her child!!


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
HOWEVER. Most people who try to touch you without your consent are not trying to hurt you. Start with a firm "No, thanks" and move from there if they don't stop.

This is where we disagree. Speaking as a child who WAS molested by the nice but clueless old man next door, I work on the assumption that anyone who is touching me without my consent IS trying to hurt me. If Im wrong, Im wrong, Id rather hurt thier feelings than comprimise my own bodily integrity. Ditto for my kids. I also dont see where the "no thank you" stated firmly and politely is any stronger than the child screaming and yelling and clinging to her mom.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint Leaf* 
Everyone should be teaching their child to scream and make a fuss if someone is trying to touch/take them!!! It doesn't matter that the original intent was to do something nice!

How many child abductions would have been stopped if we taught our children this!!

Right. I dont think a two year old is capable of making the distinction between those who mean well and those who dont. It is appropriate for them to yell and scream if being forcefully taken from thier parent. Natural and a survival instinct even.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
ITA.

I personally want my child to see me handle situations such as this firmly, decisively, and clearly, but not exhibiting fight or flight responses such as yelling. Aside from the fact that I think it is wrong and unnecessary to yell at a Walmart greeter, no matter if he's clueless, I think a 2 yo just learns fear from such an experience, and has no measure to know what justifies that fight or flight response in future. I would worry that my child would then not know who to fear next. I know my kids would have started worrying about every worker in every store after an experience where I yelled. But then, that's my kids, used to my way of dealing with stress, and my opinion. Others think that a 2 yo would take a good lesson from mum yelling - that you stand up for yourself and don't let anyone do anything to your body that you dislike.

Maybe there is no right or wrong answer. Our children don't learn self protection skills from just one incident. There are a myriad of different experiences that form our children's personalities and abilities to take care of themselves. We are all doing our best to instil these qualities and skills in our children, but we all take a different route to that end.

But I think the two year old was already afraid because of the guy trying to drag her away from her mama and perhaps her learning that her mama will protect her will make her feel MORE secure around the workers (at least the ones who arent prying her from her mother) in the future.

You are right, my own instincts and reactions to this story are of course a direct result of my own experiances and beliefs. As are yours. As they should be! Maybe I am more overprotective because of my past. But its amazing how many women I know who were molested at one point or another in thier childhoods and while Im not saying THIS man was going to molest her (certainly not in the middle of walmart!) it still speaks to the issue of bodily integrity and personal boundries, letting her know that its ok to tell someone not to touch you, and to be forcefull about it if they dont listen to your "No".

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baltic_ballet* 
I wish people would stop freaking out and talking about child molesters. Who said this man was a child molester? What if he was a misguided old man why do we immediately have to label him as a child molester?

I think the issue of molestation comes up, not because we think HE was going to molest her right there in walmart in front of 200 witnesses...but becuase molestation is an extreme form of unwanted touch and a lot of us feel strongly that children need to learn to resist unwanted touches in all forms, becuase if they learn to accept unwanted touch, its basically grooming them for molestation because they learn to ignore thier own boundries. Its the reason why I dont force my kids to hug anyone, even grandma and grandpa.Not becuase I think my mom is going to molest my kids, but because I want to teach my kids that they are deserving of respect and that includes respecting thier personal boundries. If I declined a hug and someone tried to force one on me, I'd have a sexual harassment suit! I just dont believe it should be diffrent becuase one is a child. (Not saying you think that! Just saying why I think the issue of child molesters keeps coming up)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
She didn't yell when he approached her DD the second time, she yelled when he tried to take her daughter away from her, while her daughter was screaming no. He was ignoring the "no" that her daughter was clearly expressing. I don't really understand why anyone thinks a firm "no thank you" would work when her daughter clearly expressing her discomfort wasn't.

Right. A firm but polite "No thank you" is way more toned down than what was already happening: a screaming, panicked child clinging onto to her mother. If the screaming and trying to get away from him didnt deter him, I dont think the no thank you would have either. Espeically as the mom had already said that. I think he escalated the situation and so she had to as well.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
This is where we disagree. Speaking as a child who WAS molested by the nice but clueless old man next door, I work on the assumption that anyone who is touching me without my consent IS trying to hurt me. If Im wrong, Im wrong, Id rather hurt thier feelings than comprimise my own bodily integrity. Ditto for my kids. I also dont see where the "no thank you" stated firmly and politely is any stronger than the child screaming and yelling and clinging to her mom.


I'm so sorry that you dealt with sexual abuse as a child.







It is such a horrible, destructive crime.

That said, I would like to gently point out that *most* children are never molested. Most children *will* have to deal with Great-Aunt Ida or That Lady from Church who wants to hug them, or pick them up, or give them a sticker. Which is where a firm, (but polite!) "No, thank you" comes in handy.

And unfortunately, for many of these clueless people, a crying, screaming child is just noise. They don't think at all of what the child is trying to express. That's where a parent's clear expression comes in handy. "She's quite upset, we're trying to get home as quickly as possible, please don't pick her up."


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
I'm so sorry that you dealt with sexual abuse as a child.







It is such a horrible, destructive crime.

That said, I would like to gently point out that *most* children are never molested. Most children *will* have to deal with Great-Aunt Ida or That Lady from Church who wants to hug them, or pick them up, or give them a sticker. Which is where a firm, (but polite!) "No, thank you" comes in handy.

And unfortunately, for many of these clueless people, a crying, screaming child is just noise. They don't think at all of what the child is trying to express. That's where a parent's clear expression comes in handy. "She's quite upset, we're trying to get home as quickly as possible, please don't pick her up."

The rates are one in ten boys and one in five girls are molested. Thats pretty high. And many believe that the rates are even higher as these rates are the ones that report. My only point is that, if a child is taught that they have to submit to unwanted touches, the likelyhood that, if someone does try it, they will submit to it go up. And the odds that they will tell you go down. I mean, tell what? Youve already tought them that you expect them to submit to what an adult wants even if it's not what they want (not you personally, speaking in general).

eta: I just reread and realized you DIDNT say they should have to give hugs if they dont want to. A polite but firm no thank you will probally work with aunt ida or the old lady at church. And of course that should be taught as the first line of defense. But It didnt work with this guy so I think that something else was warranted. JMO>


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
The rates are one in ten boys and one in five girls are molested. Thats pretty high. And many believe that the rates are even higher as these rates are the ones that report. My only point is that, if a child is taught that they have to submit to unwanted touches, the likelyhood that, if someone does try it, they will submit to it go up. And the odds that they will tell you go down. I mean, tell what? Youve already tought them that you expect them to submit to what an adult wants even if it's not what they want (not you personally, speaking in general).

eta: I just reread and realized you DIDNT say they should have to give hugs if they dont want to. A polite but firm no thank you will probally work with aunt ida or the old lady at church. And of course that should be taught as the first line of defense. But It didnt work with this guy so I think that something else was warranted. JMO>

Look, I'm really not trying to minimize the risk of molestation. But flip the stats, and 80 percent of kids are NOT molested (or 70 percent or whatever, depending on how underreported you think it is). That's a majority.

I am absolutely opposed to people touching children against their will (thank you, btw, for re-reading and noticing that).

I still maintain that the OP could have said "Please don't touch her, she's very upset, we're trying to leave as quickly as possible."

I think our different life experiences color the way we imagine this situation occurred, and how it should have been handled.


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
I don't think anyone is assuming he was a child molester, just pointing out that he could have had a purpose that was more nefarious than a clueless old man trying to comfort a little girl. And since the OP said she had red flags going off about him, I think it's reasonable that she reacted the way she did.

I am going to have to politely disagree and say yelling wasn't the answer, children pick up on their parents moods and I don't think yelling at someone would have helped settle the child or the situation instead it could intensify the situation and then things could have gotten out of control. You don't know this person and what he is capable of and he may have resorted to verbally or physically abusing you or your DC in retaliation. I think you need to stay calm as it will help you keep a clear head and you will be able think of more and better ways to help your DC, when you're angry all you can think about is what aggravating you.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baltic_ballet* 
I am going to have to politely disagree and say yelling wasn't the answer, children pick up on their parents moods and I don't think yelling at someone would have helped settle the child or help the situation instead it would intensify the situation and then things could have gotten out of control. Also you don't know what the other person is capable of and he may have resorted to verbally or physically abusing you in retaliation. I think you need to stay calm as it will help you keep a clear head and you will be able think of more ways to help your DC, when you're angry all you can think about is what aggravating you.


Assuming that one wants their child to learn from the experience, and learn what to do the next time someone tries to take them somewhere they don't want to go - well, I want my kids kicking and screaming. I want them drawing as much attention to themselves and the other person as possible. I want them yelling at the top of their lungs "Get away from me, don't touch me, I don't know you!" etc. I don't particularly want them to react calmly - I want them to get away. Once someone bigger and stronger than you gets you alone, you're pretty much SOL. I don't want them being polite, because I don't think there's anything to be gained by politeness if you are afraid for your safety. I know that from experience.


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
Assuming that one wants their child to learn from the experience, and learn what to do the next time someone tries to take them somewhere they don't want to go - well, I want my kids kicking and screaming. I want them drawing as much attention to themselves and the other person as possible. I want them yelling at the top of their lungs "Get away from me, don't touch me, I don't know you!" etc. I don't particularly want them to react calmly - I want them to get away. Once someone bigger and stronger than you gets you alone, you're pretty much SOL. I don't want them being polite, because I don't think there's anything to be gained by politeness if you are afraid for your safety. I know that from experience.


I don't want my children to be taken either which why keep an close eye on my children in public and I don't leave them alone. It's my responsibility to keep my kids safe in public or at home.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baltic_ballet* 
I don't want my children to be taken either which why keep an close eye on my children in public and I don't leave them alone. It's my responsibility to keep my kids safe in public or at home.

And your responsibility includes equipping them to be able to protect themselves if need be. You will not always be with them, even if you are right now.


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## Peppermint Leaf (Jan 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
And your responsibility includes equipping them to be able to protect themselves if need be. You will not always be with them, even if you are right now.

---

I was thinking the same thing.
they will be in school and on field trips where you will not be there... and it only takes a second for someone to take a child!!









scream as loud as you can if someone is trying to take you or do something to you.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
And your responsibility includes equipping them to be able to protect themselves if need be. You will not always be with them, even if you are right now.

Correct. I certainly think it's my responsibility to watch my kids as much as possible. I'm not even overly concerned about my kids being abducted - I think an actual stranger abduction is very, very unlikely to happen. But my kids won't be little forever. Someday my little girl might be an adolescent or young adult getting cornered by a guy at a party, and I want her to feel free to kick him in the balls and scream if he's doing something she's uncomfortable with - no polite "no thank you" required. If one of my boys meets someone online and goes to meet them without my permission, only to find out that they aren't who they said they were, I want them to draw attention to the predator - no politeness necessary. With as many times as I have had someone do something sexually inappropriate with me from the time I was little to adulthood, I don't doubt that at some point one or all of my kids will need to be in a position to defend themselves - and I want them to do it loudly. I want them to turn their fear into a raucous protest, as opposed to being frozen by it. Now, I don't think that if the OP had said a firm, polite "No thank you" that she would be teaching her daughter complacency in the long term, but in that situation, it would never occur to me that that response would do any good. It's certainly never done any good in my life in a situation where someone was intruding on my personal space or doing something inappropriate. If the man had just been trying to coax the girl over for a (probably innocent) hug while she hid quietly behind mom? Sure, I would use no thank you in that situation. But someone trying to pull a screaming child away from me? No way in hell it would even occur to me to be polite.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

eclipse, you make excellent points!









I really, really want my kids to feel okay with making a ruccus if someone's acting inappropriately, and not respecting their boundaries.

As you point out, we won't always be able to be with them in every situation. And the fact is -- even while they're little, for those of us who have more than 1, sometimes we can have our head turned (like the poster who turned around to find her FIL had snuck up to her baby in the shopping-cart).

It makes sense that we don't disable our kids' built-in fight-or-flight mechanism -- and I'm not saying that anyone here has advocated that, even the ones who are against the yelling, I think we all just see things differently.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
correct. I certainly think it's my responsibility to watch my kids as much as possible. I'm not even overly concerned about my kids being abducted - i think an actual stranger abduction is very, very unlikely to happen. But my kids won't be little forever. Someday my little girl might be an adolescent or young adult getting cornered by a guy at a party, and i want her to feel free to kick him in the balls and scream if he's doing something she's uncomfortable with - no polite "no thank you" required. If one of my boys meets someone online and goes to meet them without my permission, only to find out that they aren't who they said they were, i want them to draw attention to the predator - no politeness necessary. With as many times as i have had someone do something sexually inappropriate with me from the time i was little to adulthood, i don't doubt that at some point one or all of my kids will need to be in a position to defend themselves - and i want them to do it loudly. I want them to turn their fear into a raucous protest, as opposed to being frozen by it. Now, i don't think that if the op had said a firm, polite "no thank you" that she would be teaching her daughter complacency in the long term, but in that situation, it would never occur to me that that response would do any good. It's certainly never done any good in my life in a situation where someone was intruding on my personal space or doing something inappropriate. If the man had just been trying to coax the girl over for a (probably innocent) hug while she hid quietly behind mom? Sure, i would use no thank you in that situation. But someone trying to pull a screaming child away from me? No way in hell it would even occur to me to be polite.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

A child who screams may look to a passer-by like he or she is throwing a tantrum or squabbling with a parent or guardian. Teach your child to yell out specific words rather than just scream. Yelling out "help I don't know this person" "this is not my dad," or "this is not my mom." will get the attention of others.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baltic_ballet* 
A child who screams may look to a passer-by like he or she is throwing a tantrum or squabbling with a parent or guardian. Teach your child to yell out specific words rather than just scream. Yelling out "help I don't know this person" "this is not my dad," or "this is not my mom." will get the attention of others.

Oh yes, I definitely do that. That's important. Just like yelling "Fire!" will get more attention than yelling "Rape!"








The OPs DD, though, is only 2.5 and might not yet have the verbal abilities to do that. My three year old couldn't handle "You're not my dad!" but he could handle "No!" and biting someone or pulling their hair (he likes to pull hair and he's good at it







. I don't encourage it, but I'm not above using his "talents" for these purposes!)


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow I was going to just add an update and noticed how many posts there were over the weekend, and all good points. What I was going to update was this:
My friend needed a ride home from work because with the cold weather her car would not start







When I picked her up she wanted to stop by Walmart to get her son's prescription. I told her there was a Walgreens on the next corner but she said Walmart already had the script filled she just needed to pick it up. When we walked in (without kids by the way) the same man was there greeting people. I just tried to rush by him, I just felt so creeped out over everything and I thought about everything that happened. I told my friend about it while we were waiting in line and she said "Oh man I cannot believe you yelled at him." I guess she had the same mindset as some on MDC in thinking yelling was not the answer. I just shrugged it off and said "Well you were not there and it was a quick decision without a lot of thinking involved." I guess it boils down to different people would react differently. However I am of the mindset in that I don't say FOR SURE what I would do in a particular situation until I have actually experienced it myself. How do you know FOR SURE how you would react if you were in MY situation at the EXACT moment in time? You don't know, you THINK you know but you really don't. If someone were to have asked me what I would have done in that situation and I would not have experienced it, I MIGHT have said something like "Oh I would remain calm and say 'Please stop. She is upset and I need to leave.'" But I didn't react that way at all. I still feel badly for yelling at him and I yes, he does have a disability I have discovered, but it still does not give him the right to pry my already screaming daughter away from me without my permission.







:


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
Look, I'm really not trying to minimize the risk of molestation. But flip the stats, and 80 percent of kids are NOT molested (or 70 percent or whatever, depending on how underreported you think it is). That's a majority.

The fallacy here is that you're omitting the incidents where no molestation occured, but could have.

I wrote out a bunch of stories that happened to me and DH as kids (not molestation, but people who approached us with OBVIOUS bad intentions, both people we knew and also a couple of strangers) but decided to delete for brevity. But the overall point was just that DH and I are not part of those quoted statistics, but we absolutely needed the same ability to protect ourselves. If it were not for luck, we'd be among those statistics ourselves.

In addition to the classic child molesters (family members, teachers, neighbors and even strangers), people - especially girls and women - need to be able to protect themselves against peers (especially adolescent boys), dates and coworkers.

We're talking about the vast majority of people facing threats on some level. I've never been molested or raped, but in thinking about this, I was SHOCKED at the number of incidents that I could remember in my life where my bodily integrity was threatened in some way - and I had a very protected, sheltered life.

Also, 20% is a huge number, and waving it away because it's not 50% or more doesn't make any sense. I'd agree if we were talking about 0.02% or something, but 20% is huge. That's bigger odds than Russian Roulette.


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## Ngandee (Nov 2, 2006)

I didn't read the entire thread but I just wanted to say stuff like that always happens at Walmart. We used to live in a very small town and Walmart was one of my few options.

One time, an older woman greeter said about my children (adopted from China) "I always wanted me one of them." I just shake my head and say "only at Walmart."

That said, Walmart doesn't treat those elderly greeters very well. So I try and give them a break.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ngandee* 
I didn't read the entire thread but I just wanted to say stuff like that always happens at Walmart. We used to live in a very small town and Walmart was one of my few options.

One time, an older woman greeter said about my children (adopted from China) "I always wanted me one of them." I just shake my head and say "only at Walmart."

That said, Walmart doesn't treat those elderly greeters very well. So I try and give them a break.

Please don't turn this into a "Walmart hater" thread so it does not get shut down. I understand why many don't shop at Walmart and I really regret putting the store name in the thread


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