# Whoa! I seriously flipped! LONG ***(UPDATE)***



## Jade2561 (Jun 12, 2005)

So...I take a class two days a week in the evenings. I'm taking Family Relations this semester and last night we were talking about disciplining (sp?) children. I am VERY liberal, from NJ but now live in a VERY conservative town in Oklahoma. Everyone in class-and I mean EVERYone - was talking about how the problem with parents today is that they let their kids get away with everything and don't spank them. "Kids don't fear their parent's enough to do right"; "The schools don't beat the kids hard enough" (btw OK is one of the top 10 states for corpal punishment in schools), "A good beatin' goes a long way..." I could not believe it - so I am on the verge of tears and blurted out, "You are teaching your kids that violence is okay and they are going to grow up to be aggressive and damaged and will certainly resent you" and then I left.

Later that night I get a call from a classmate saying that I took the conversation out of context and that they were talking about spanking out of love (is there such a thing?) and not out of anger and that it was God's will to correct our children with corpral punishment! To top it off, my husband thought it was innappropriate for me to storm out of class and is MAD at me!
Was I out of line? Because personally I think my classmates were WAY out of line...


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## Greensleeves (Aug 4, 2004)

Those were definitely upsetting things they were saying. I think anyone who believes in Gentle Discipline would have been unsettled by those statements, and since it was a class obviously where discussion was invited, I thought your reply was appropriate.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

You were not out of line. I would have given them a large piece of my mind before I stormed out.

-Angela


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## alicia622 (May 8, 2005)

I say good for you for speaking your mind. It would have been very hard not to leave although you would have had made a better statement staying and defending your position. I think your husband needs to support you- he certainly has no reason to be mad at you! Even if he thinks you overreacted, his job is to help you feel okay about what you did- not get mad at you. As for the friend saying they were talking about spanking out of love- IMO that's ridiculous. Was the instructor open to hearing your point of view?


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

How horrible! You were not out of line at all, although as the PP said, you may have been better able to make your point if you had stayed and defended your position. However, I can see where that may have been totally impossible. I don't know that I would have been able to stay and listen to that nonsense either, especially since it sounds like you were the only one who didn't believe in spanking.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

I applaud you for speaking your mind. Yeah, you could have stayed or done something differently, but what you did was a pure moment. It was what it was. If I were dh, I would be supportive of what you did. It sounds like there are enough people to disagree with you.


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## JenniferH (Feb 24, 2005)

If you'd stayed they probably would have ganged up on you. As it is, you most likely left them with their mouths hanging open.


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

You go girl!!!! I am thankful you spoke up!!!!

What they were saying is sick and cruel, no matter how commonly accepted.
Seriously, I don't think you could have overreacted if you tried. Speak the word!


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## Jade2561 (Jun 12, 2005)

alicia622 Was the instructor open to hearing your point of view?[/QUOTE said:


> The professor didn't say ANYthing about my comment or theirs which is even more distressing because she is a conselor who works with abused children. UGGG!


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## dswmom (Nov 17, 2002)

I admire you for having the courage to let your feelings out...no matter how they came out. Physical discipline is a scary thing and the fact that it is so commonly accepted and practiced is even scarier. It's like people don't even THINK about it, they just do it because no one challenges them to think otherwise. I encourage you to get Jan Hunt's book "The Natural Child", read it, then share with your classmates.

She has a section in that book about the parenting golden rule--"treat all others as you would like to be treated yourself" and then asks us to think about how we treat our children....would we treat our spouses the same way?

Here's an excerpt from her book that just makes me want to drop her book off at every parent and soon to be parent's door!

_"The wife accidentally spills coffee on her husband's new shirt. He hits her. Will the wife be more careful with his belongings in the future? Or might she have him arrested for spousal abuse?"_

Is this not so true? If we treated our spouses the way most parents treated their children there would be an awful lot of pot throwing going on in the house and the current divorce rate would look tame.

You have a chance to enlighten some minds!! Go get 'em


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Is a man who beats his wife and children more likely to have come from a home where gentle discipline was practiced or where corporal punishment was practiced?

I think you exercised great self-control. I think I would have thrown up before walking out.


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## dswmom (Nov 17, 2002)

Jade...just curious. How did your conversation go with your classmate? Did you feel you were able to express yourself better after you had a chance to calm down?

Good luck with class this week! I'll be sending good vibes your way


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## Jade2561 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dswmom*
Jade...just curious. How did your conversation go with your classmate? Did you feel you were able to express yourself better after you had a chance to calm down?

Good luck with class this week! I'll be sending good vibes your way









It went better, we talked a little bit at dd's b-day party. She listened to what I had to say but still thinks that spanking out of love (with an open palm, of course







) is the way to go. I go back to class tommorrow...we'll see how it goes!


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## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

sounds like a class i took in college (Jewish/Christian relations). one of the guys in there told me that i was going to hell b/c i was Jewish! loll!
i dont blame you for your response, but since it was a class, perhaps you should print out a lot of scientifically based articles and submit those to the class for discussion. but im sure that will be a bunch of "hippy liberal talk" but who knows.
im curious as to what the professors comments were?


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Wow, that's really interesting. I wonder if the prof recognizes the bias or agrees w/it.

Well, most will dismiss you as a bleeding heart but maybe you will make one or two question the idiots.

I'd find a really good article or list of references and xerox it for class next time. And, be quiet and peaceful and calm and present your thoughts.

Good luck!


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

"Spanking out of love"... It kinda reminds me of similar phrases wife-beaters use - "I hit you cause I love you" kinda crap









Hugs to you mama and kudos - it is very hard to stand your ground in a crowd of different-minded. You did it









I say even if you sawed a doubt in a mind of a single person - you not only spoke your disagreement, you made a CHANGE.


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## bookwitch (Jun 30, 2005)

You were NOT out of line.

I thought about maybe suggesting that you suggest some websites these people could look at, but it probably wouldn't do any good. (I know, I know, a defeatist attitude.)

And that "spare the rod" crap...do these people know that a shepherd's rod was actually used to GUIDE the sheep, not BEAT them?

I'm about to get mad here myself, so I'm going to step back a moment. But I wanted to let you know, no you are NOT out of line.


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## RadiantMama (Sep 9, 2004)

I am very interested in finding out what happens at the next class...

BRING SOME LITERATURE supporting your view

they may gang up on you...but you have the right attitude and the right idea...it's just that you have to validate their ideas first...then go for the jugular (as it were) and let them know that if they truly love their kids, this is the better route...other consequences...

GOOD LUCK!

you are awesome!


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Geez, Oklahoma.

I was raised by Okies who spanked, and it's because, as another poster pointed out, nobody has really challenged them to THINK about it. I don't know if it's a regional issue, but it seems to be.

They always iterated all this "spank with love" crap to their friends, but the reality was, they just beat us when they got pissed off.

No offense to other Okies.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:

I was raised by Okies who spanked, and it's because, as another poster pointed out, nobody has really challenged them to THINK about it. I don't know if it's a regional issue, but it seems to be.

They always iterated all this "spank with love" crap to their friends, but the reality was, they just beat us when they got pissed off.
Same here - North Texas.

Speak the truth fiercely and without regret. I know it feels like pushing waves back into the ocean. Most of my family is there. >sigh<


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## melissa_honeybee (May 20, 2005)

I agree with the other's here, print out some facts about this. I would bet there is at least one other person in your class who is on the fence or also feels the same way as you, but may be afraid to speak up. You can teach children respect without using violence. In fact the idea of spanking instilling respect is ridiculous, if anything it breeds fear, which perhaps can be *mistaken* for respect.

My husband and I both grew up in households that spanked, and when our son turned two and got really defiant and, well, bad we didn't know what to do, so we would spank him. It didn't take long to realize that not only did it not stop him from doing dangerous/defiant things, but he started hitting us and others.

Now we only use "time out" for punishment(for when he does something he has been repeatedly been told not to do-otherwise we use redirection and such), and it is so much more effective. It gives us all a chance to calm down and talk it out.

I do think that children are less respectful today, but there is a whole host of reasons behind that- and it is certainly not because they need a good beating. If anything they need parents that listen to them. Isn't there some kind of quote along the lines of in order to gain respect you must give respect?


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## MotherWhimsey (Mar 21, 2005)

Iagree with the PPs that you were totally justified. I'm sorry you had to listen to that tripe. Stupid people suck and when they get together in large groups the amount they suck increases exponentially


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## corwinegall (Jul 7, 2004)

The kids who are running amok are not the kids that aren't being spanked IMO. I'm sorry you had to listen to that.

I've found that getting into the conversation from the begining helps in situations like that, sometimes it can diffuse it from going too far and keeps my blood from boiling. Although sometimes I'm so appalled that I can't think straight!!!


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## ChiriMama (Jul 23, 2005)

thank you for speaking up.


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## Delphiki (Dec 13, 2004)

I had a very similar class last year and I was also the ONLY one who did not believe spanking was appropriate.

Good for you for standing your ground.

I don't understand the logic of "I love you so I am going to hit you to show you that love." That makes no sense to me as an adult and I can't imagine a child understanding it, IMO.


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## guestmama9972 (Jun 5, 2003)

Good for you for speaking up. Unfortunately, I am not surprised at the attitude that spanking is ok. My parents are both from east Texas and were raised getting spanked themselves. My dad is a peaceful man who would rather die than hurt anyone but my mom beat the crap out of me a few times. DH and I don't spank our girls because we both have wounds (emotional) from being spanked.

Not that it makes it ok, but I think that the more conservative parts of the country think that corporal punishment is totally appropriate. Now I'm not trying to offend anyone from a conservative state--this is just my opinion from what I have observed.

As far as spanking being "God's will", I just don't get that at all. Some people use the "spare the rod, spoil the child" idea to justify spanking, but the rod is referring to a shepherd's rod. They don't use the rod to beat the sheep! It is for guidance and safety!

All the best as you continue to take a stand.


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## RadiantMama (Sep 9, 2004)

i just read _don't think of an elephant_ which has a great explanation and ideas on framing--conservative model vs. nurturing ... mostly polotics... but explains a lot!


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2anna*

As far as spanking being "God's will", I just don't get that at all. Some people use the "spare the rod, spoil the child" idea to justify spanking, but the rod is referring to a shepherd's rod.

AFAIK, "spare the rod, spoil the child" isn't even IN the Bible, anyways. Folks quote it like it's Scripture, though.


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

Good for you for speaking up! I wouldn't have been able to sit in that classroom and listen to that horrible stuff either, not without throwing up!

I feel so bad for you if you have to actually go back to that class.


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## Jade2561 (Jun 12, 2005)

Well, last class we were talking about parenthood (again) and the subject shifted to discipline. I was getting ready to fight til the end, because last time the proffessor (a therapist) did not say anything to defend my stance.
She started by saying "I know a lot of you will disagree with me, but..." and went on to totally bash corpral punishment; how it damages childre, how even if they were spanked it doesn't make it "okay" and literally went on for 1/2 an hour about how horrible and wrong it is.

Needless to say, the whole class was stunned. I was soooo glad, she told them good and she even gave me a BIG smile before I left class.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Yea! So glad to hear it. I hope they all took it to heart.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jade2561*
Well, last class we were talking about parenthood (again) and the subject shifted to discipline. I was getting ready to fight til the end, because last time the proffessor (a therapist) did not say anything to defend my stance.
She started by saying "I know a lot of you will disagree with me, but..." and went on to totally bash corpral punishment; how it damages childre, how even if they were spanked it doesn't make it "okay" and literally went on for 1/2 an hour about how horrible and wrong it is.

Needless to say, the whole class was stunned. I was soooo glad, she told them good and she even gave me a BIG smile before I left class.


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## babybugmama (Apr 7, 2003)

Oh that must have felt so good to have that validation. I'm glad that happened.


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## Miss Juice (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2anna*
Some people use the "spare the rod, spoil the child" idea to justify spanking, but the rod is referring to a shepherd's rod. They don't use the rod to beat the sheep! It is for guidance and safety!

My stepmom took "spare the rod and spoil the child" as a commandment. As in YOU SHOULD spare the rod and spoil the child. After all rods cost money...


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## merrick (Dec 8, 2003)

Wow that is so great about the prof! I have had to sit and listen to that crap so many times. I wish I had the courage to speak out like you did.

The worst was this summer when I had a child development class which included a lab where you had to work in a preschool. It was a lot of fun and I was really enjoying it. The teacher who was also the director of the preschool seemed to be really great with the kids. She talked all about disciplining gently. We were taught always to redirect, never be negative towards the kids, try to avoid saying no as much as possible, etc. The worst thing they had for punishment was a sort of time out. But it was really non punitive. Basicially if they were acting up and wouldn't stop she would give them the choice of working with the group or going and sitting at a table. When they were ready to come back and join the group they were welcome to. No negativity and no time limit. It was really great and worked very well with all the children.

Then one day toward the end of class, the prof comes out with this anecdote about how some children just need to be spanked. ANd starts telling us how she had to spank her child. I was so disappointed and angry. This was a child development class and here she is advocating spanking! Even though everything she taught in the preschool and in the book spoke of the ill effects of corporal punishment. And so of course this set off the whole class talking about the problem with kids today is that they aren't spanked enough and those crazy parents who won't allow the teachers to paddle their kids at school.







:







And most of the people in the class were Early or Elementary Education majors. Isn't that just lovely. It just irks me to no end when people equate not spanking with not disciplining at all.

So anyway, what I'm trying to say is I've been there and way to go you for standing up for your beliefs. Oh, and tell your hubby to kiss your bum. What's it to him if you walked out of class anyway?


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2anna*
As far as spanking being "God's will", I just don't get that at all. Some people use the "spare the rod, spoil the child" idea to justify spanking, but the rod is referring to a shepherd's rod. They don't use the rod to beat the sheep! It is for guidance and safety!


Bring a copy of the Bible to class and dare anyone to find the 'spare the rod, and spoil the child' quote. When they can't, pull out a copy of Samuel Butler's Hudibras, and show them the line is from a 1600's poem, not their happy little book.

Then tell them this is what happens when they base their lives on an ancient text they can't even be bothered to read. Anyone who hits their kids because of what they *think* is written in a 2,000 year old book needs to have their head examined.









~Nay "The Intactavist Doula"














: my little booby bandito, Antonin









I love my super supportive DH







Our kitties!


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogals*
My stepmom took "spare the rod and spoil the child" as a commandment. As in YOU SHOULD spare the rod and spoil the child. After all rods cost money...


ROFLMAO!! Classic! That's what I've always argued that quote meant, too. Glad to see I'm not the only one.









~Nay "The Intactavist Doula"














: my little booby bandito, Antonin









I love my super supportive DH







Our kitties!


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jade2561*
Well, last class we were talking about parenthood (again) and the subject shifted to discipline. I was getting ready to fight til the end, because last time the proffessor (a therapist) did not say anything to defend my stance.
She started by saying "I know a lot of you will disagree with me, but..." and went on to totally bash corpral punishment; how it damages childre, how even if they were spanked it doesn't make it "okay" and literally went on for 1/2 an hour about how horrible and wrong it is.

Needless to say, the whole class was stunned. I was soooo glad, she told them good and she even gave me a BIG smile before I left class.









Fantastic!! Fantastic!! Fantastic!! Wow, I feel like celebrating. Woohoo!!

~Nay "The Intactavist Doula"














: my little booby bandito, Antonin









I love my super supportive DH







Our kitties!


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## Sherra (Jun 27, 2005)

Quote:

Needless to say, the whole class was stunned. I was soooo glad, she told them good and she even gave me a BIG smile before I left class.
She probably felt like a heel for not stepping in fast enough to diffuse the ganging up on you. Glad things worked out.

On a side note...this isn't a liberal vs. conservative issue. I know plenty liberals who spank and plenty of conservatives that do not spank. We are in the middle of a paradigm shift in the usa anyway on how to discipline kids. My father grew up in the era where they took him behind the woodshed and let him have it. My father did not do that to me. I can count on one hand how many times I got popped for being bad. I can't even recall the instances either because my parents didn't spank by general rule necessarily.

And I agree with one of the posters that said that the kids who are disrespectful..has nothing to do with not being spanked. My brother was spanked and he is a terribly disrespectful jerk. Spanking is not what made me the open and caring person I am today. Being taught consistent values is I think what helped build me and I had the personality to take that and run with it. My brother has spent most of his life..a very angry hateful person. I will never know all the variables that played into it.

I look at my child as she is on loan to me from God and it isn't up to me to hit his creation. I'm going to really read and tap into women who have more wisdom than I..on how to handle the tough times ahead so I don't have to spank.

I wish I had the quote..but there was a quote by some famous person back in 1100 or something long ago like that..that said.._our youth of today are more disrespectful than their predecessors_. So each generation thinks this....it isn't all of a sudden.

Sherra


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## babybugmama (Apr 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sherra*
I look at my child as she is on loan to me from God and it isn't up to me to hit his creation.

I really like this. There was a moment when dd was maybe a year and a half old...and it came down like crashing bricks...*you *aren't* mine! you are only mine for a little while. I just get to hold you for such a brief time and I only get that brief time to give you everything I can.* I cried like a baby I tell you.

I must agree spanking has nothing to do with political frame of mind.


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## corwinegall (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin*
ROFLMAO!! Classic! That's what I've always argued that quote meant, too. Glad to see I'm not the only one.









~Nay "The Intactavist Doula"














: my little booby bandito, Antonin









I love my super supportive DH







Our kitties!
























I LOVE THAT!!


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## dswmom (Nov 17, 2002)

Yeah for your professor!!!








I know that meant a lot to you and I'm sure it will make a difference in the minds of some of those people in your class (Where is the crossed fingers symbol??)

Thanks for updating us...this has been a really neat discussion to follow.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Our Early Childhood Family Education teacher says that kids seem less respectful now becasue they feel safer to act age appropriately. I







that teacher.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
They always iterated all this "spank with love" crap to their friends, but the reality was, they just beat us when they got pissed off.

No offense to other Okies.









Same here Louisiana. RE the shepherd's rod being used to guide a video in our abuse awareness seminar for church workers made that point and it was such a relief to me. I was already using GD (or trying my damnedest anyway certainly no spanking) but there was a little voice in the back of my mind that said "Doesn't the Bible approve of spanking? What's that about?" When I was sitting there listening to a priest give the real meaning of that verse it gave me such a sense of peace.


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