# 9yo won't unlock bedroom door- what should I do?



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

For the past hour or so, my 9yo DS has been locked in his bedroom- which is also my bedroom and DD2's bedroom (small house.) He's locked himself in there before, but never for more than a few minutes- up until today, he used the door lock responsibly.

The locks to the door have been missing for years, and the screwdriver we've been using for that purpose has been missing for months. I can't unscrew the doorknob from the outside as the screws are in the inside- ditto for the hinges on the door. There is NO way to open up the door from the outside (short of a fireman's ax.)

DS has been a little under the weather, and therefore more cranky than usual, for the past week or two. The routine is also disrupted with DD1 sleeping on the couch, since she's too sick to sleep lying down in her bed.

I understand why he's frustrated, really I do. But I don't know what to do right now. I can't get into my own bedroom! I'd like to sit on my bed and read while the girls watch TV in here, but I can't get in there. I'd like to put on a pair of socks, but I can't get to them. This is rediculous!

Assuming he ever does open up that door, I intend to remove the doorknob this afternoon and replace the nob (with something that can be unlocked with a paper clip) later this week.

I'm so angry right now I don't know what to do.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

OK, he came out of the room and I removed the doorknob. At least that part of the crisis is over.

While he was in there, I deleted all his recorded shows on the DVR (and cancelled all the ones scheduled to record) as well as put his Nintendo DS up on a high shelf.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I'm glad the immediate crisis has passed. I've been through this with my kids before-- it's not my bedroom, but all three of them share a room, and DD1 tried to lock herself in there. I understood that she wanted privacy, and that she was upset with her siblings, but locking them out of their room for an extended period of time was NOT okay, and neither was blatantly refusing the open the door once I'd explicitly told her to do so. Luckily, I worked out in the moment that I could unbend a pair of tweezers and use that to pick the lock. In the end, I wound up replacing the doorknob with one that didn't allow her to lock it. Our job, after that, was to find her a place where she could go to be alone when she needed to, that didn't involve locking her brother and sister out of THEIR room. That was difficult in a small house-- we settled on getting her a bunk bed, and helping her set up the top bunk with shelves and a comfortable backrest and stuff, and forbidding the other two to climb up there. It's working out nicely for us, but I think that we're going to have to re-evaluate our bedroom setup as they get older.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
> 
> OK, he came out of the room and I removed the doorknob. At least that part of the crisis is over.
> 
> *While he was in there, I deleted all his recorded shows on the DVR (and cancelled all the ones scheduled to record) as well as put his Nintendo DS up on a high shelf.*


why would you do this?


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## PiggyPiggyOinkOink (Aug 5, 2010)

I'm guessing as a punitive punishment that made her feel better.


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## Aridel (Apr 25, 2004)

It sounds like a tough day! How are things going now?

As far as problem shooting with the situation - sorry for the million questions! Feel free not to answer, but it's how I tend to run through situations in my head, so maybe it'll help!

Was he aware of the consequence for keeping the door locked? Do you typically need such severe consequences for him, or is there a reason you chose such severe consequences this time? I'm not saying it's wrong to take away the DS, or remove access to the TV, but deleting everything he saved, everything he was going to record, and taking the DS seems like a bit of overkill. What was his response when he was in the room, as far as what he was saying, and doing?

As far as being able to do some preventive work to avoid another incident, I think a PP was right about the importance of having a private place to go to, even if it's small. Is your son able to ask for time alone when he needs it, or is he one of those people who just loses it? We had to work with my dd to recognize when she was getting to the point where she had to let us know she needed space, rather than snapping at us for going to talk to her, when her leave-me-alone signals could be hard for us to read.

Is there a place that's you can go when you need five minutes to relax by yourself? It sounds like your kids are old enough constant supervision isn't needed. As parents, I think we lose sight of that sometimes, and it contributes to build up of anger, at least for me. Even if it's just a few minutes outside, or in a room by myself, I find that having time where I can breathe deeply and relax helps so much! If I don't get that sort of time (and let's face it, it happens!) I find that I'm a lot less able to respond reasonably and maturely to the kids, especially when we feed off each other on bad days.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Ruthla- sounds like you all had a tough day.









How is everything going now? Have you two been able to talk? My 9 year old can be really tough but once things have calmed down we usually can work thru it. Sounds like you resolved the door knob issue, (phew, that had to be frustrating AND scary), but what about the punishment? Is he Ok with the consequence you gave him? Does he know about the DVR?


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

He would be in big trouble here. I do not allow locks on kids doors and I keep a key at my own door and the doors of bathrooms. He would lose every single priviledge he has until I feel better...a week or more depending. I wold probably yell through the door that for each minute it takes him to unlock, he will lose another day of everything. Then I would time it.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Ouch, that is a rough situation. I'm sorry.

What would I do? Sit down and talk with him about why he felt the need to lock himself in the bedroom and then try to work on a solution. Did he want privacy? I can imagine it would be hard to live in a small house with 2 sisters and a mom and being a 9 year old boy. My ds is 7 and getting to the point where he now understands that his body is private and he demands privacy. He doesn't want me in the room anymore when he's changing clothes, etc. My ds does lock himself in his bedroom and I've allowed it because he always unlocks it if I ask (even if it's to unlock it, peek his head out and say he wants privacy). If he ever didn't unlock it I would probably be taking the lock off.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

I know you were frustrated, really trust me when I say that I do understand. BUT, I think you need to address what frustrated him and why he reacted the way he did. Now if he was frustrated becasue he wanted to play DS and it wasn't a good time, then taking the DS may be the best move. But if he was frustrated because he had no privacy, then taking the DS is not going to teach him how to deal with that frustration. Basically, work from where his frustration began, and move from there into how to deal with the frustration well. It sounds like he wanted some privacy. He's the only boy in a house full of girls, I can't blame him for that. He needed to work through his frustration without (OK wow, just read that he's in a house full of hormonal, and in the full swing of hormones, girls). He may have just needed some time to cool off away from the women. That is very typical of males, at least the ones I live with.


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## Katwoman (Apr 15, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PiggyPiggyOinkOink*
> 
> I'm guessing as a punitive punishment that made her feel better.


I find this so interesting. It's clear you don't agree with what the OP did. But you responded to what you considered a punitive punishment with being passive aggressive to get your point across. Perhaps in the future it might be more gentle to either wait for an explanation from the OP or not jump to the most negative response you can come up with.

Or not respond to threads that elicit such a viseral response from you.

To the OP, I'm sorry the situation go so emotionally charged. It's so hard to parent from a place we want to when we're so frustrated!


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## grassisgreener1334 (Nov 24, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> He would be in big trouble here. I do not allow locks on kids doors and I keep a key at my own door and the doors of bathrooms. He would lose every single priviledge he has until I feel better...a week or more depending. I wold probably yell through the door that for each minute it takes him to unlock, he will lose another day of everything. Then I would time it.


This is really sad to me...kids need privacy sometimes. While I understand not wanting locks on the doors, if someone needs some space and their mother is banging on the door, demanding they unlock it or else they will lose everything they look forward to, that is just pure torture. Unless they're a very small child that could hurt themselves in the bathroom or whatever, this is really not needed nor healthy, imo. I feel that this teaches kids that their need for space isn't warranted, that they are subhuman somehow. It's a basic human right, in my eyes, to be given the freedom to be alone and to not let anyone into our space, especially if this doesn't harm anyone. This is important for psychological and emotional well-being...nobody wants to feel like a prisoner in their own home.


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## FiveLittleMonkeys (Jan 21, 2009)

Locking doors is not something we normally do at our house - not even us as parents lock our door - so when this has happened in our house, it is swiftly dealt with. The issue I would have would not so much be a desire for privacy, which is something that we all desire once in awhile, but the blatant disobedience when he was asked to unlock the door. If my 9 yo son (and yes, I have one - who has 3 older sisters) had pulled that stunt, he would lose his TV and Wii privileges - because they are the things that MATTER to him. It wouldn't be to spite him, it would be to remind him that, "Hey, I didn't do what Mom asked me to do, and now I can't do what I want to do. Next time, I should think about my choices."

While I love my kids and don't wish to discipline them harshly, I also require obedience to our pretty simple house rules that all of us as a family created. When I ask them to do something or follow a rule, I expect them to obey. That is what would be my problem, and that is why a consequence would be handed out - in my house anyway.


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## grassisgreener1334 (Nov 24, 2006)

This question is for those who are against having locked doors in their home--what is it specifically about that that you don't like? I'm just curious because I'm not sure I fully understand the reasoning. If it's simply a matter of "disobedience" then how did that rule come about? What is the purpose behind it? I don't see the harm in allowing a child to have complete privacy...they will come out eventually and I feel that giving them this choice is what will help them feel more in control of their space. In my eyes, children don't live under their parent's roofs, they share the same space and if we can all honor each other's need for physical boundaries then this will ultimately make it easier for everyone to live together. It's all well and good if you personally don't feel the need for locks, but sometimes children do...would you rather they have this choice or feel like they can't have clear boundaries when they need them? That's not to say that the reason behind why a child might be locking themselves in a room is always clear or even terribly important...maybe they're just cranky, like the OP said about her son. Whatever emotion or reason is driving it, though, the psychological importance of making a clear-cut boundary like locking a door behind you and knowing that will be respected by the other people in the house is very important, in my eyes. Sometimes it's not enough to only be separated by a door...sometimes people need locks in order to feel safe, to have a little breathing room, to know that they can be alone and not be intruded upon.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Katwoman*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Unfortunately I can't get to the "yeah, that" smiley from my phone. But, yeah, that!! I don't get the lack of support and downright bullying I sometimes see on this forum. This mama was having a rough time. If my ds did this I would go nuts!!! It's incredibly inconsiderate. Maybe I would have handled it differently, maybe I wouldn't have. Who knows till i'm walking in those shoes. I think honest discussions are great but can't we find a way not to put each other down? Sheesh!!!


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

My objection would be purely safety-based. If my son wanted to lock the door for privacy, that's fine, but it needs to be one of those kinds of doors where if there were an emergency I could poke something into the tiny hole to release the lock.

But I would question his need to lock it. In other words, if my son locked his door (versus merely closing it), it would say to me that he expected me or his dad to not respect his privacy. Which just isn't the case. I mean, if the door is closed, we're going to knock, not just go barging in. There's no need for him to lock the door. If he had younger siblings, however, who hadn't learned yet about knocking first or privacy, then I could see him locking it, and I would not object as long as there were an emergency doohickey on the lock.

What safety concerns might I have, you ask? Well beyond the slightly-neurotic yet ever-present fear that he'll end up choking on something, I would think that a far more likely scenario would be if he was doing something risky or forbidden in his room--as an example, say he wanted to experiment with matches or do some sort of crazy science experiment that was likely to blow up, or stand atop one of his bookcases. And if any of these hypothetical things went horribly wrong, I would need access to help him. I can't for the life of me envision my son doing anything sneaky like this, as we don't have that sort of adversarial relationship, but he's my first & only kid, he's just 7 (almost 8) and I suppose that he could still surprise me.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

the authoritarian type of parenting that is focused on obedience and low on autonomy leads to children that are more passive, less interested in intellectual pursuits, have lower self esteem and higher depression.

there are consequences for your children if this is your choice of parenting methods.

the ideal parenting style is authoritative. this focuses on communication (children feel comfortable and safe communicating with their parents), clear boundaries, and demanding yet responsive behavior. their children tend to have high social skills, self-esteem, and self-direction.

it seems to me that even when i'm having a bad day, i absolutely try to not become punishing towards my children.

several of the posts in here have advocated consequences as a means to communicate that the parent is the authority that needs to be pleased, essentially punishing the child for "disobedience" this is clearly authoritarian and, as such, seems to be out of place in a gentle discipline forum.


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## DeerMother (Apr 22, 2008)

It seems to me like some pp have missed the fact that this is a shared room. He locked himself in the room he shares with Ruthla. Regardless of if he needed privacy or not, she needs access to her space.

I've been dealing with sick dc (in a studio apt) for about a month and I can understand the exhaustion and frustration on everyone's end that comes with that.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DeerMother*
> 
> It seems to me like some pp have missed the fact that this is a shared room. He locked himself in the room he shares with Ruthla. Regardless of if he needed privacy or not, she needs access to her space.


Yes but I think what people are saying is that the fact that a 9 year old boy shares a room with his mother and older sister is the likely cause of the whole thing.


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

I happen to agree with the OP and likely would have done exactly the same thing. Frankly, in the moment the reason WHY my child is doing something are moot. If he's told to stop, he needs to stop, period. If I said unlock the door, the door needs to be unlocked immediately upon my saying so, no excuses, no questions asked. We can discuss the reason why later, when he's responded timely to my request.

If he did not respond immediately, then yes, consequences will begin to develop. If my 9 year old child wants to be treated with respect and have his wishes taken into account, then he needs to first fulfill his obligation to obey his parent.


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## JamieCatheryn (Dec 31, 2005)

If my son locked himself into the TV room we used to have in order to watch TV he'd lose all his TV privelidges for several days too. It is a somewhat logical conseqence of watching TV when not allowed to. Rather than removing doorknobs, if I were you I'd get a couple more screwdrivers that fit the lock, I feel way more comfortable if I can undo any interior door lock in the house from the outside easily.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

We've had a lot of fights over TV and computer time lately. I'll ask him to do something and he says "after I finish this game" and then he forgets and starts another one. He's had a very hard time focusing on homework and chores after spending time "zoning out" on TV or a video game. I think that a total break from screen time may help him focus better on the things that need to be done.

So I *do* think there's a logical connection between taking away "screen time" and his outburst yesterday.

I've been threatening to delete his recorded TV shows for a while now, and this was the final straw. I did let him watch half an hour of live TV this morning (his bus comes at 8:45, he really needs to get up at 8:00, but he sets his alarm for 7:30 so he can watch from 7:30 to 8:00.)

And, after I removed the doorknob, he went downstairs to the basement for "alone time."


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SubliminalDarkness*
> If my 9 year old child wants to be treated with respect and have his wishes taken into account, then he needs to first fulfill his obligation to obey his parent.


What? If a 9 year old wants to be treated with respect, he needs to first realize that he has no rights or feelings that matter, and that his need to learn from someone older and wiser is a huge inconvenience that must only be met with aggression or coercion from that older, wiser person? Brilliant!

Yes, that's how I read that. Probably a little extreme but really. You've stated that FIRST he obeys and then he gets the honor of being heard or understood. Power first! Yikes.

I would tend to say that if you want him to do as you like, create the kind of open and respectful relationship where his age-appropriate assertion of his desires aren't a punishable offense. An emotionally-safe place. Which, by the way, he isn't in, judging from the sound of the severe and retaliatory erasing of his taped DVDs (which broke my heart when I read it).

That reminds me of one time, back before I started thinking of my kid as a separate human being and the only thing that mattered was his "obeying," I had an angry fit. He was "misbehaving" in the car, and I behaved like an utter CHILD...I took his crayons and angrily threw them down onto the parking lot -- the "road" part where they'd surely be run over by cars going through the lot. It was nothing more than me having an angry fit over my child's misbehavior. See the irony there? I was acting like a world-class a** ho*e and an immature baby at that, but because I was the parent, I supposedly am to be obeyed?

If we don't want our kids to engage in angry tit-for-tats, then we can't do it ourselves. My child cried and cried when he saw his crayons on the ground, and of course I went and gathered them right back up again. But I later apologized sincerely for that. And that incident has stood as a "never again" lesson for us. Never again will I be deliberately hurtful under the flimsy rationale of "I'm the parent." (and practically speaking, if I don't want to raise a kid who will come out and angrily erase all my computer files when he feels justified in anger, then I don't need to start modeling that myself)

Instead, I am the parent, so I am to guide and teach. I am the parent, so I am to lovingly set limits for my child when necessary. I am the parent, so I am to model restraint. I am the parent, so I am to ensure my son feels safe coming to me with ANYTHING. I am to be wise, not angry and punitive. I am to get my own childhood issues handled rather than put them on the shoulders of my kid. THESE are my responsibilities as a parent. Not to unthinkingly dole out punishment because my kid wasn't smart enough at age 9 all the things I know at my advanced age.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PiggyPiggyOinkOink*
> 
> I'm guessing as a punitive punishment that made her feel better.


I have also been this mad before and it is true that I feel better for the immediate short term but long term I feel really bad. I think a lot of mom's have a time when they go off the deep end and respond by doing something their parents would have done even if it isn't the most gd thing to do.

OP I think that this was probably a very frustrating situation but that now that it is over you should try to find a way to give him the privacy he needs. When we were younger my mom used the living room as her room and perhaps that would work for you and your dd so your son can have privacy even though you live in a small place that doesn't lend itself easily to that. He is getting to an age when he is going to start having wet dreams and wanting more privacy and hopefully you can work as a family to make that happen without things getting so dramatic.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SubliminalDarkness*
> 
> If he did not respond immediately, then yes, consequences will begin to develop. If my 9 year old child wants to be treated with respect and have his wishes taken into account, then he needs to first fulfill his obligation to obey his parent.


Let's turn that around for a minute. If you want your child to treat you with respect and have your wishes taken into account, then you need to first fulfill your obligations to your son. Doesn't sound right the other way around either, does it? But, if we make love and respect conditional on obedience, then that is the exact message we are sending, that they can be revoked if the giver feels that the other party doesn't deserve respect. I certainly hope my children don't feel that respect for another human being can be revoked just because the person makes them mad occasionally.

If I want to be treated with respect by my kids, I should show them respect. Children learn by example, so to teach them how to show respect, while maintaining boundaries, I must show them respect while maintaining boundaries. To teach them conditional love, all I have to do is show conditional love. But to teach them unconditional love, I have to make them FEEL unconditional love from me. Saying that they need to obey before I show them respect proves that I honestly have no respect for my children, that respect is a tool to be used to make them do what I want them to do. I don't think respect is a tool, but a right that every person should have. The level of respect is earned, but EVERY person has the right to be respected to some degree.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

OP, you said you have a basement that he went to for alone time. Have you thought about possibly setting him up a bedroom down there? Is he open to having a room that he CAN be garaunteed privacy in? That way, if he wants to pout for an hour or two it isn't interferring in your ability to get into your room. I would really look at this as a sign that he needs some place to go cool down that he feels confident won't be invaded. Perhaps the basement might be an option.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

The basement is not an option for sleeping; there's no fire exit, and we have to go through my parents' living space to get to it (we live upstairs, my parents have the main floor, and we share the basement.) The basement room is fine for playing or quiet time but isn't appropriate for anybody to sleep in.

DS needs to learn to express his emotions with words rather than actions.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
> 
> The basement is not an option for sleeping; there's no fire exit, and we have to go through my parents' living space to get to it (we live upstairs, my parents have the main floor, and we share the basement.) The basement room is fine for playing or quiet time but isn't appropriate for anybody to sleep in.
> 
> DS needs to learn to express his emotions with words rather than actions.


I agree that he needs to express his emotions in a better way. But I know that some people need time to cool off before they can effectively express themselves. Some people need private space where they can go through it in their heads before they can say it out loud or it comes out as shouting and disrespect. I am not in any way supporting his behavior, but saying that the root cause of the reaction (specifically locking you out of the room) needs to be addressed or it is going to happen again.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

And I do wonder how he feels having to share a room with his older sister and his mother-that may be the root cause and as the PP mentioned all the punishment in the world won't fix that dynamic. While I am certainly not a proponent of each kid having to have their own room, I do think at his age he needs and deserves basic privacy.


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## PiggyPiggyOinkOink (Aug 5, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
> 
> The basement is not an option for sleeping; there's no fire exit, and we have to go through my parents' living space to get to it (we live upstairs, my parents have the main floor, and we share the basement.) The basement room is fine for playing or quiet time but isn't appropriate for anybody to sleep in.
> 
> DS needs to learn to express his emotions with words rather than actions.


I would venture that with "So do you." Based on some of your previous posts, you spring to actions that are less than gentle before using your words to defuse a situation. Lead by example. Take the lock off the door, and be the bigger person. Since you are the adult and all. Find a way to get the boy a place that's more private, or create a "cool down" area in your living space that everyone can utilize when they're upset. There are many ways to handle an angry child, especially one that's recently been sick and just wants to be left alone. Deleting every program they were looking forward to watching isn't the best way, IMO.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

It would not have occurred to me to get upset over the locked door. I would have been intensely curious as to why ds locked himself in a room, especially if it was out of the ordinary. Even if I could guess the reason, I'd still want to hear it from him. It would never have occurred to me to demand he unlock it or to threaten or punish him over it. I am not saying I wouldn't be annoyed, but a locked door is not a personal affront to me unless I choose to take it that way, and I don't. I think locking oneself in a room is actually a pretty good idea if you are super upset, 100x better than screaming or hitting. So while I'd rather ds not lock himself in a room that had my stuff in it, that is a separate issue. If there was something I needed from inside the room, like my laptop, I might say through the door "Ds, I know you are upset, and want the door locked. I need my laptop on the bed. I am going to walk away from the door and would really appreciate it if you'd set it outside the door for me." I am 100% sure my ds would have given it to me, too.

Believe it or not I think we are fairly strict in the sense that these behaviors NEVER go unaddressed. We ALWAYS talk out an issue until I am satisfied that ds and I have come to an understanding. But there is wisdom in choosing when to have that talk. I would not have it through a locked door. That is ignoring a clear message that ds is upset and wants to be ALONE. I have no problem with a 9 year old locking themselves in a room (unless there is a safety concern). The lock is not the issue for me. The issue is whether my child can take responsibility for that action. If you want to lock yourself in the kitchen, you need to pass food through the door to everyone while you are in there. Is that practical? No. If you lock yourself in a room shared with a sibling is that fair? No. What can be done in the future to get everyone's needs met? I think you have to give respect for what is GOOD about a child wanting to lock themselves in a room and be alone with their feelings in order to get them to admit was is NOT good about it (like being impractical for others who share the room). I want my son to THINK not of punishments to avoid, but of the most responsible way to get what he wants.


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## grassisgreener1334 (Nov 24, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Petie1104*
> 
> Saying that they need to obey before I show them respect proves that I honestly have no respect for my children, that respect is a tool to be used to make them do what I want them to do. I don't think respect is a tool, but a right that every person should have. The level of respect is earned, but EVERY person has the right to be respected to some degree.


Well said


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

It sounds like both your DS and you need a place you can each call yours. Your DS is the only male surrounded by females, and you are the only adult surrounded by kids.

Maybe you can set him up something down in the basement. It doesn't have to be for sleeping, but it sounds like he needs a private place. As he gets into the teen years this need will just get greater. It needs to be a place his sisters are just not allowed to go to, and you agree to only go to in cases where you believe safety or health are at stake. Maybe some kind of tent that could be his club house.

For yourself, maybe you can section off part of the room with a screen or use furniture to create a quiet nook. Place a comfortable chair there and music with head phones so you can really tune out.

If he doesn't already have one, consider possibly getting him a loft or bunk bed, so that he can be a little more separate when he is sleeping. Do all 4 of you sleep in the bedroom? Possibly one or two of you could set up sleeping arrangements in the living room instead.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It wouldn't occur to me to get upset over a locked door either. Someone else said that a couple of posts up, and I agree completely. My dd has just turned 9, and when she gets upset she often wants alone time and locks herself in her room. I consider that to be a healthy way to deal with her big emotions instead of taking them out on me and her dad and her little sister. She has her own room, but then that's one of the reasons for having her own room, so she has her own space for when she's upset. She locks it because she wants to be alone and doesn't want anyone to follow her in, which seems natural and normal to me. I'm surprised by how many people are upset over a locked door.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

I think the problem was that it is not just his room and she needed to get in there to get things.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
> 
> OK, he came out of the room and I removed the doorknob. At least that part of the crisis is over.


I think you did the right thing. Keeping someone else out of their own space is a big no-no.

Have you had a calm talk with him now that the crisis is over?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> I think the problem was that it is not just his room and she needed to get in there to get things.


 Yeah it just seems like a different answer to this problem could be "he needs a space he can go and be alone."


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

I don't believe that "gentle discipline" means "it's okay for children to be incosiderate of everone else's feelings". The first word is "gentle", the second word is "discipline". Good actions bring about good consequences, bad actions bring about bad consequences. I believe as parents we are supposed to be affectionate, fair and consistent. The loss of priveleges sounds like a reasonable consequence for a bad choice, and at 9 y.o., most children ARE old enough to understand that it is exteremely disrespectful to lock themselves in a shared room and to ignore family members. I'm not even getting into the safety side of the argument, which would drive me insane on the other side of that door!

Why do we insist that children are old enough to be heard, and given the power of important decision, but not when those decisions affect us negatively? then we supposed to look for an excuse for those actions? And growing up without having my own space until I was in my late teens, I have to say - it is NOT a big deal for a 9 y.o. child to grow up without their own bedroom. Where in the world do children have all their own bedrooms? It is so not the norm, nor is it a necessity for a happy childhood or a healthy family dynamic.

I also believe that authoritative parenting style does not mean you forgo the lessons of respect within the family. It is absolutely disrespectful to act that way towards one another. I do not lock doors on anyone, and no one in the family shoudl lock the doors on me. Yes, children should be heard, and listened to, and their actions have reasons. But the thing is, they learn right and wrong from us and our reaction. When they are disrespectful and we say / do nothing - we are not being "authoritative parents", we are being permissive, imho.

I have seen Ruthla's posts before, and do not find the OP to be a harsh or an unreasonable parent , even if I do not agree with everything.  I don't know if I would start with the DS, but I definitely see why a parent would go that route.

Hope the situation is diffused by now, and everyone had the time to look at it with a cool head. Parenting is tough, and pretending that it's easier to be a 9 y.o. child than a parent on the other side of the locked door is not an honest assessment of most parent-child situations. Even our 17 y.o. says she is nostalgic for her carefree childhood. 

I hope OP found out the exact reason for her son's actions. Good luck to everyone involved~


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> And growing up without having my own space until I was in my late teens, I have to say - it is NOT a big deal for a 9 y.o. child to grow up without their own bedroom. Where in the world do children have all their own bedrooms? It is so not the norm, nor is it a necessity for a happy childhood or a healthy family dynamic.


But no one suggested he had to have his own bedroom. What was suggested is that everyone sometimes needs a private space to go to. And several posters asked if the boy has access to a space that is his-even if only for a little while.

If it is so important to this little boy that he felt he had to lock the door to get that space he needs, then all the punishment in the world is not going to change that dynamic. Feelings should not be invalidated because the outward manifestation of those feelings was inappropriate.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


> The loss of priveleges sounds like a reasonable consequence for a bad choice, and at 9 y.o., most children ARE old enough to understand that it is exteremely disrespectful to lock themselves in a shared room and to ignore family members.


A 9 year old locked himself in his own shared room for an hour.

I do not see the extreme disrespect in this act.

Inconvenience, yes. However, I think the response of the parent probably played a huge role in how long it took the child to open the door. I question whether he'd have stayed in there for the full hour had he not sensed the storm of punishment awaiting when he came out.

I want to ask, where do you go in discipline, if your response to a locked bedroom door for one hour is to remove the doorknob and hand out arbitrary punishments?


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I agree with the fact that if someone needs a place to be alone, the parent should try to provide that. However, there is also validity to the feelings of a parent who loves her child and makes the expected sacrifices that caring parents make for their children, and tries to raise the children to the best of her ability. Why do we expect the parents to do anything and everything for their child, yet feel it's an imposition to have any expectation of kindness or respect from children in return?

Do I think it's important why the kid locked themselves in the room? Sure. I hope they figure it out, be it silliness, or extreme need for privacy (which is not what you are getting when you lock yourself in a room for an hour, and your mom is trying to get in), or maybe a blatant act of defiance - " I do it, because I can, and I want to annoy you, because you won't let me play another hour of video games."

Do I think it was rude to ignore his mom and not open the door when asked? Without a doubt. I would never have fathomed such an act at that age, or ANY age. With my parent or with any other family member. Why is it a bad thing to expect the child to have the awareness of feelings of others? Why do we just expect the parents to consider child's feelings, but forget that it shoudl work both ways?

Would I remove the lock if a child of 9 locked themselves and refused to open the door? Yes, I would. Next time it can be a neighbor's kid inside that room, not just my kid. Next time it might be a younger sibling, who thought it was funny, and will lock themselves there and then won't be able to unlock and get scared. There are 1 million reasons as to why that door should not have been locked. Closed? Sure. Locked? Not okay.

Would I remove the video games? Depends on how the child handled the situation. Were they apologetic, were they regretful, did they acknowledged the fact that their actions affected others in a negative way? OR was the response rude and arrogant?

At least that's how I see it.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oriole*
> 
> I don't believe that "gentle discipline" means "it's okay for children to be incosiderate of everone else's feelings". The first word is "gentle", the second word is "discipline". Good actions bring about good consequences, bad actions bring about bad consequences. I believe as parents we are supposed to be affectionate, fair and consistent. The loss of priveleges sounds like a reasonable consequence for a bad choice, and at 9 y.o., most children ARE old enough to understand that it is exteremely disrespectful to lock themselves in a shared room and to ignore family members. I'm not even getting into the safety side of the argument, which would drive me insane on the other side of that door!
> 
> ...


OK, so basically, all I'm saying is that noone I've seen has said her son behaved absolutely properly. What I have seen is alot of people saying to find the cause for the behavior, not just punish the behavior. It's like when I go to the doctor and say that my ears hurt, my throat is sore, and my head is thumping. If all he does is says to take some tylenol without finding the cause, chances are, I'll be back in a couple days complaining again. If he looks and sees that, wow, she has an ear infection and puts me anti-biotics, he has just cured the CAUSE of the issues. So, in my opinion, finding the cause for his behavior should be the priority. If you punish behaviors rather than sort out the issue, then more behaviors are bound to follow.


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## grassisgreener1334 (Nov 24, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Oriole*
> 
> Why do we just expect the parents to consider child's feelings, but forget that it shoudl work both ways?


I understand where you're coming from, but I think it's important to look at things from the child's perspective. Not because we're "supposed" to or it's the "right" thing to do, but because we're older and wiser and so it's naturally easier for us to understand them and have compassion for them. Children can often be rude, arrogant, whatever negative adjective you want to use to describe the way they choose to express themselves. So can parents, though. It is just as easy for a parent to want to act rudely or negatively towards a child as it is for the child to want to act this way towards their parents...I've seen it time and time again and I've been there myself. The difference, though, is we are (hopefully) more emotionally mature, which allows us to teach by example and help a child with their anger or rudeness. If we get so frustrated by a child simply acting like a normal child (needing their own space, for example) that we turn around and act disrespectfully towards them, then what does that teach them? We don't like their rude behavior but it's okay for us to act rudely towards them in return? I don't know about you, but I don't want my kids to learn from me that eye for an eye is an acceptable way to be in this world. The bottom line is, you can't expect children to act like adults, especially if you yourself are refusing to act in a mature, respectful manner. They need to be loved, to be nurtured, to be gently led towards expressing themselves in healthy, appropriate ways...and the number one way this happens is by example.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


> Why do we just expect the parents to consider child's feelings, but forget that it shoudl work both ways?


Can you give an example of where someone suggested otherwise in this thread?

Quote:


> Do I think it was rude to ignore his mom and not open the door when asked? Without a doubt. I would never have fathomed such an act at that age, or ANY age. With my parent or with any other family member.


It would be very unhealthy for me personally to feel this way. If I want my privacy in the bathroom or bedroom, I think I have a right to it. If it creates a problem for someone else, I will discuss it, calmly. I will teach my son, by example, to do the same.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Ruthla, I know you said that the basement isn't suitable for sleeping, but is there a space that can be made to be only his...not for sleeping? I have this with my son. He doesn't want to sleep downstairs, but he wants his own space. I have set up an area that is his, a shelf full of his stuff, desk, computer, etc. It's his area even if he doesn't sleep down there, he can go there and be alone in his space.

I don't think you did the right thing with the retaliatory punishment, but you probably know that. An apology can go a long way with those kinds of things. I used to throw stuff away whenever I'd get mad. My kids got so upset that they became indifferent to anything brought into the house..no excitement about a new toy because it could be tossed as soon as they messed up. Luckily, I stopped doing that and have been constantly searching for new tools to help me with discipline that don't disrespect my children.

Sounds like a rough day. Maybe some good can come from it.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *heartmama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I don't get that the issue is the locked door so much as the disrespect inherent in 1) not unlocking it when asked 2) excluding others from accessing a shared space when other options (ie the basement) are a possiblity. We also have no information about what happened before the locked door or what conversations were happening through the door during that hour so I think it may be a leap to say that the discipline is an arbitrary punishment.

It sounds like there is enough stress in the household without piling it on this mama here in this forum.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

> It sounds like there is enough stress in the household without piling it on this mama here in this forum.


I guess this is the main underlying feeling that I have in offering defense to OP's actions. I am not disagreeing with the fact that child's actions often have reasons worth exploring and understanding before punishment is given out. At the same time, I can also feel the frustration of a parent with a child who is not being nice at the moment, yk?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


> It sounds like there is enough stress in the household without piling it on this mama here in this forum.


I do not want to add to her stress--my hope is that this thread addresses the stressful nature of her response by offering calm and effective alternatives.

Quote:


> I don't get that the issue is the locked door so much as the disrespect inherent in 1) not unlocking it when asked 2) excluding others from accessing a shared space when other options (ie the basement) are a possiblity. We also have no information about what happened before the locked door or what conversations were happening through the door during that hour so I think it may be a leap to say that the discipline is an arbitrary punishment.


If my 9 year old locks himself in a bedroom he has a reason, and a lot of stress and drama can be avoided in life by pausing to figure out the why. This is one of the most important parts of effective Gentle Discipline. An arbitrary punishment is neither natural nor logical, and Gentle Discipline is not about the application of arbitrary punishments. Possibly, if the locked door became an ongoing problem which her son seemed unable to resist, then removing the lock could be logical. However, this is why I asked 'Where do you go from here?'...it is intensely stressful for parent and child when the strongest possible solution is used first.

Gentle Discipline is an extension of Attachment Parenting, and it is absolutely appropriate that we challenge one another to ask whether our approach to discipline is based on trust and attachment, *at any age*.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

When I think about all the times I locked my bedroom door as a child, it was not so much because I wanted my personal space (because I had my own room) but because I wanted to spite my parents. Kind of a "screw you" attitude. <-- Can I say that?







I knew they couldn't get in and I knew I had control at that point.

I also don't think it's fair to assume Ruthla's punishment was arbitrary. She never told us WHY her son locked himself in the room. Perhaps she had told him to get off the DS for the umpteenth time and he lashed out at her rudely and then ran off in anger.

And lastly, I DO think it's a big deal to lock oneself in a shared space. If he wanted time away, he could have gone to the basement, as he did later. He could have even just gone off to the room and asked to be left alone. But how many would be okay with a child locking himself in the only bathroom in the house and refusing to unlock the door for an hour? Or locking himself in a living room (assuming the room has a door)? Or locking himself in the house and leaving his family outside, keyless? I don't think I'd be sitting around wondering what his reasons were, or how I could help him express his frustration. I would just demand to be let IN. And once in, then we could talk. However, if the door never opened for me, well, then, that's another issue entirely.

Then I'd be dealing not just with a kid who needed his space, but a kid who lashed out in disobedience and disrespect. And there are consequences for those in our house.


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## Coconut Chronicles (Aug 31, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Karenwith4*
> 
> I don't get that the issue is the locked door so much as the disrespect inherent in 1) not unlocking it when asked 2) excluding others from accessing a shared space when other options (ie the basement) are a possiblity. We also have no information about what happened before the locked door or what conversations were happening through the door during that hour so I think it may be a leap to say that the discipline is an arbitrary punishment.
> 
> It sounds like there is enough stress in the household without piling it on this mama here in this forum.


Exactly...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Anastasiya*
> 
> When I think about all the times I locked my bedroom door as a child, it was not so much because I wanted my personal space (because I had my own room) but because I wanted to spite my parents. Kind of a "screw you" attitude. <-- Can I say that?
> 
> ...


Ditto!


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> Gentle Discipline is an extension of Attachment Parenting, and it is absolutely appropriate that we challenge one another to ask whether our approach to discipline is based on trust and attachment, *at any age*.


I love this.

Quote:


> I don't think I'd be sitting around wondering what his reasons were, or how I could help him express his frustration. I would just demand to be let IN. And once in, then we could talk. However, if the door never opened for me, well, then, that's another issue entirely.


And I would agree initially. In the heat of the moment we are not at our best. But I do not agree (with what has been posted by the OP so far) that deleting all of his recordings, deleting all of his scheduled recordings, and removing the DS was anything other than a parent being extremely angry and lashing out in a way that seems to be designed to cause the most hurt. Destroying possessions is never OK in my opinion-others may not see DVR recordings as possessions but I do. I know I would be beyond hurt and furious if in a fit of anger someone erased all my recordings and settings.

While AP is absolutely a two way street between child and parent, the parent SHOULD be able to be the guiding force most of the time purely by weight of experience and maturity.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *heartmama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if you are summarizing GD principles for my benefit but I'm not new to the what gentle discipline entails. I've worked at practising it for the past 13 years and with all 4 of my kids.

I still don't think we have enough information to judge whether the OPs actions constitute illogical or arbitrary punishment, nor do we know that she jumped to the "strongest possible solution first". We don't know what actions she took prior to the locking of the door, or what was tried during the time he was refusing to participate in finding a solution to an immediate problem. The child deserves to be treated with respect but that doesn't mean that he gets let off the hook for inappropriate, disrespectful or unkind behavior IMO or that there aren't consequences for his actions.

Could the OP have handled things better? Possibly but I would prefer to assume/trust she's doing the best she can with what she has at the moment and needs support, in the same way that I would assume her son needs support to do the best he can. Pointing out in a challenging way that her approach isn't GD enough (when we don't have all the info) seems somehow out of place in this thread/forum and I would guess doesn't feel so supportive.

Just my two cents.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


> And lastly, I DO think it's a big deal to lock oneself in a shared space. If he wanted time away, he could have gone to the basement, as he did later. He could have even just gone off to the room and asked to be left alone. But how many would be okay with a child locking himself in the only bathroom in the house and refusing to unlock the door for an hour? Or locking himself in a living room (assuming the room has a door)? Or locking himself in the house and leaving his family outside, keyless? I don't think I'd be sitting around wondering what his reasons were, or how I could help him express his frustration. I would just demand to be let IN. And once in, then we could talk. However, if the door never opened for me, well, then, that's another issue entirely.


I don't like to 'what if'--it tends to blow the actual situation being discussed out of proportion. Her child locked himself in his own shared room for an hour.

Quote:


> I also don't think it's fair to assume Ruthla's punishment was arbitrary. She never told us WHY her son locked himself in the room. Perhaps she had told him to get off the DS for the umpteenth time and he lashed out at her rudely and then ran off in anger.


True, we could use more information.

Quote:


> Then I'd be dealing not just with a kid who needed his space, but a kid who lashed out in disobedience and disrespect. And there are consequences for those in our house.


But the consequences we talk about here should build from a framework of Gentle Discipline, right? Within the context of GD, what do you recommend a parent do in this situation? Or is this what you meant about needing more information first?

Quote:


> I'm not sure if you are summarizing GD principles for my benefit but I'm not new to the what gentle discipline entails. I've worked at practising it for the past 13 years and with all 4 of my kids.
> 
> I still don't think we have enough information to judge whether the OPs actions constitute illogical or arbitrary punishment, nor do we know that she jumped to the "strongest possible solution first". We don't know what actions she took prior to the locking of the door, or what was tried during the time he was refusing to participate in finding a solution to an immediate problem. The child deserves to be treated with respect but that doesn't mean that he gets let off the hook for inappropriate, disrespectful or unkind behavior IMO or that there aren't consequences for his actions.
> 
> Could the OP have handled things better? Possibly but I would prefer to assume/trust she's doing the best she can with what she has at the moment and needs support, in the same way that I would assume her son needs support to do the best he can. Pointing out in a challenging way that her approach isn't GD enough (when we don't have all the info) seems somehow out of place in this thread/forum and I would guess doesn't feel so supportive.


The OP asked what we would do in this situation, and the most practical support a person can be given is actual examples of what others would do in this situation. As moderator, I am reminding everyone to keep their advice within the scope of Gentle Discipline. I hope the OP does not feel directly challenged; I will gladly edit posts if she feels that way, if she contacts me via PM.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *heartmama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *heartmama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Well as the PP said we don't have enough information.

I do agree with removing the lock on the door of a shared space with the exception of the bathroom (assuming there are no small children or safety/medical issues) because I think it removes a roadblock to living more respectfully. I don't see it as an arbitrary punishment at all.

I think deleting the shows may be appropriate if the OP feels that too much screen time is contributing to the problems in connecting as a family and behaving respectfully and if its clear that self regulation and other approaches aren't working. As I've said we don't have enough info to make any kind of judgement on that.

If a child of mine refused to open a door to a shared space I would hope I could back away from the situation and use some kind of self talk to stay calm (again assuming no safety concerns) so that I could either provide safe space or work towards understanding. I'd also put in play some proactive parenting strategies already in place. For example we have a set of 5 family rules which cover almost every situation and which we use as a tool to help us move towards communication and problemsolving.

Failing the ability to stay calm (and if I were under stress I would not be at my best in that situation - disrespectful defiance pushes my buttons) I would try a different avenue of support - call a friend, go for a walk etc.

But after an hour I can imagine being angry and frustrated and I don't fault the OP for feeling that way.


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## LovelyNJ (Feb 24, 2009)

You are his parent and you need to stay strong, especially since your single or it will only get worse. Obviously physically or mentally abusing a child is wrong, but it doesn't sound like thats what your doing at all.

The only thing that I would have done differently is told him that unless he unlocked the door, these were going to be the consequences for his actions. Calmly saying something like "I love you, and you need to be respectful of us and open the door or you will not get your TV/Video time this week."

I know its tough. Kids need some limits to their actions to feel safe and loved. Don't let that love for your child prevent you from doing what is best for his sake.

My 6 year old started being very fresh to me, and starting a behavior reward chart helped a lot. No N Now

I had "hippie" parents who literally never said the word no, and let me do whatever I wanted (eat whenever, color on the walls, TV all night etc.). I can remember as a little child acting out just to see if my parents cared enough to notice. I failed 1st grade because I thought if I was bad enough, they might show some concern. I felt so angry, like why didn't they even try to show me right from wrong? Although we had a lot of money and I attended an alternative private school, I always felt that if my parents truly cared they would have set boundries.

Good luck!!!


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

I'm glad it resolved O.K.

One thing I would consider doing is having a privacy doorhanger that anybody can put on the door knob. I would try and make some sort of clock on it or have it on a white board... and limit the time they can use it (say one hour of privacy--as you all share the bedroom). That way, everybody (even you!) can have privacy if they need it... without the need to lock doors.

If somebody needs to DVR a show or get something that cannot wait (really cannot wait) there should be some sort of gentle way to do so... without invading the person who needs privacy. Maybe a knock... maybe a knock and a note under the door...etc.

Of course, it's a thousand times easier to give ideas here when you're not in the heat of the situation.


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Petie1104*
> 
> Let's turn that around for a minute. If you want your child to treat you with respect and have your wishes taken into account, then you need to first fulfill your obligations to your son. Doesn't sound right the other way around either, does it? But, if we make love and respect conditional on obedience, then that is the exact message we are sending, that they can be revoked if the giver feels that the other party doesn't deserve respect. I certainly hope my children don't feel that respect for another human being can be revoked just because the person makes them mad occasionally.
> 
> If I want to be treated with respect by my kids, I should show them respect. Children learn by example, so to teach them how to show respect, while maintaining boundaries, I must show them respect while maintaining boundaries. To teach them conditional love, all I have to do is show conditional love. But to teach them unconditional love, I have to make them FEEL unconditional love from me. Saying that they need to obey before I show them respect proves that I honestly have no respect for my children, that respect is a tool to be used to make them do what I want them to do. I don't think respect is a tool, but a right that every person should have. The level of respect is earned, but EVERY person has the right to be respected to some degree.


I do fulfill my obligations to my children. They are fed, they are clothed, they are taken care of, they are loved. So I really don't see your point or understand what profound point you're trying to make. It's nonsensical to me.

Believe it or not, punishing a child is not a lack of love, its the opposite. I don't believe this "unconditional parenting" stuff for a millisecond, so you really won't make any ground with me trying to speak like it's unquestioningly true. It is not disrespectful to tell my child he needs to obey his parents. Not in the slightest. It is also not showing a lack of love. How silly.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NellieKatz*
> 
> What? If a 9 year old wants to be treated with respect, he needs to first realize that he has no rights or feelings that matter, and that his need to learn from someone older and wiser is a huge inconvenience that must only be met with aggression or coercion from that older, wiser person? Brilliant!
> 
> ...


In my household, the parents are obeyed, period. Yes, our kids can talk to us, and they can voice feelings or concerns, but they cannot choose to disobey without consequences. Maybe not everyone agrees with that, but it is something I very strongly believe in. It's not about "power." But it IS about authority and being the parent and the adult and the one with maturity and perspective.

I never said I do anything in anger, but I do respond, and I do not tolerate the kinds of behavior that the OP's child displayed.

And thanks for implying I have "childhood issues." That was a nice addition.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Please keep this part of the user agreement in mind. It is easy for these debates to get personal. I do not like to edit or remove posts so please regulate your own posts so that moderation won't be necessary.

Quote:


> Do not post in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack or in any way which violates the law.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

I wasn't trying to be rotten or push the boundaries of the forum. I was merely seeing it from the kid's point of view AND drawing from my own experience (the "childhood issues" part). Although, in fairness to myself, it's also probably accurate to say that we ALL have something from our childhood that we would prefer not to pass along to our kids. The details of it can vary, of course, but whatever it is, it requires us placing ourselves between "it" and our kids, for the kids' sake.

I've been in your position. Someone on a forum was very stern with me once (and she was kind of a jerk about it) and it made me so mad my blood boiled. In retrospect she did me a service, because often it's when we are chastised and made very uncomfortable, that we are sort of forced to see things a different way. Often times it is a better way. In saying some things I know that I am not going to win any popularity contests. I get that.

But my heart hurts when I see some things from the kid's point of view.

Anyway, I'm sorry I was insulting and offensive. Next time when I feel that much passion about a topic, I'd be wise to leave the forum for 24 hours and cool down, and then decide whether to respond.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

> *In my household, the parents are obeyed, period.* Yes, our kids can talk to us, and they can voice feelings or concerns, but they cannot choose to disobey without consequences. Maybe not everyone agrees with that, but it is something I very strongly believe in. It's not about "power." But it IS about authority and being the parent and the adult and the one with maturity and perspective.


you really might want to look into authoritarian parenting styles. the information that i read about it really had an impact on the way that i choose to parent. i'm not saying that it will for you, of course, but the research on the consequences of it was very interesting to me.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Hi Ruthla,

Are you still reading? I hope you've resolved this with your son by now. What an awful situation. I've done similar things myself, let relatively minor issues make me really angry, then react with anger instead of reason. That's the sense I got from your post, anyway. I am no expert, and struggle with anger myself all the time, but I think dealing with your own anger before trying to deal with your son's behavior would have worked better. I can feel that red wave coming, and I am the person who needs a time out. I am sometimes the one locking the door. You haven't said why your ds wouldn't let you in. Was he upset and needed alone time? If I did that myself, I would not be inclined to cooperate if someone were banging on the door to be let in. If my ds locked himself in his room, I hope I'd give him the time and space he needed. It may be your room, but it is also his room. I think it's possible he needed to be alone more than you needed a pair of socks at the moment. I do sympathize with you. Like I said, I've reacted in anger plenty of times.

Hope all is well now.


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## catfood (Jan 23, 2011)

I'd just be very gentle with him and let him have his time to himself.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Hey Ruthla, hope everyone's feeling better. I hope you clarify some stuff, if only because this has become an interesting debate for the rest of us, and we'd all like to be fair to you and your son.







I assume you consider this issue resolved, though.

So you, ds and dd2 share a bedroom. Does that mean dd1 has her own room? Shouldn't the two girls be sharing the room? Your son and daughter both need to be in separate bedrooms.

I agree with the mamas who said that punishment doesn't automatically equal cruelty. But punishment should be relevant and commensurate.

If some of us are having a hard time understanding the connection you have made between your son's actions and you deleting/canceling his shows, then it's quite possible that your nine year old doesn't understand the connection, either. I'm speculating that you observed that the more tv he watches the more peevish he gets , which led to him to lock himself in the room for an hour. But that's speculation fueled by my own maternal experience and intuition, not your words.

Sounds like you're under a fair amount of stress. Hope you all get a break soon.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> Your son and daughter both need to be in separate bedrooms.


Who says?







How can you make such a call for Ruthla's family and situation?


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

With regards to the sleeping arrangements....

There are people all over the world who don't even have one bedroom in the shelters they call home. Everyone sleeps on mats on the floor, from the old folks down to the babies, in the middle of the shack or hut, and their mats are put up in the morning to free up living space.

The idea that people have to have separate sleeping areas at all is one of privilege and wealth, and is largely based on Puritanical hang-ups. Do you think the native Americans had separate tipis for their pre-teen offspring? Were their progeny all psychologically damaged by having to sleep with their parents and siblings? Heck, lots of kids worldwide not only sleep with their entire families, but are present in the room when their parents engage in sex.

Ruthla, although you probably could have handled things better, you will get no judgement from me. My older DS behaved the way you describe (only to the millionth degree) on a near daily basis for most of his childhood. He was an explosive, defiant child. I did lots of things that were inefficient or illogical in response to his outbursts and manipulations. I've forgiven myself for them, and now at the age of 19 he freely admits that he was a little sh*t as a kid. We're only human.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> There are people all over the world who don't even have one bedroom in the shelters they call home. Everyone sleeps on mats on the floor, from the old folks down to the babies, in the middle of the shack or hut, and their mats are put up in the morning to free up living space.
> 
> The idea that people have to have separate sleeping areas at all is one of privilege and wealth, and is largely based on Puritanical hang-ups. Do you think the native Americans had separate tipis for their pre-teen offspring? Were their progeny all psychologically damaged by having to sleep with their parents and siblings? Heck, lots of kids worldwide not only sleep with their entire families, but are present in the room when their parents engage in sex.


I understand this POV (and have heard it many times on MDC) but to me it's irrelevant because that's not where we live. That wold (daily routines, stresses) is entirely different to the one this boy lives in. I really think it's just unhealthy for a 9 year old boy to share a bedroom with his mom and 16 year old sister.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> I really think it's just unhealthy for a 9 year old boy to share a bedroom with his mom and 16 year old sister.


I think calling it unhealthy is really going overboard.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I'm American, so my child is being abused if he does not have his own room







Cos we are different than the rest of the world...


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Posting from iPad really isn't worth it sometimes.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

If the point is to address the underlying need, I don't think it is helpful to compare people in other countries because it simply doesn't apply. THIS kid's needs are going to be different than a kid in Japan or Peru or Afghanistan. Telling him people in other countries don't have privacy either doesn't solve anything or help address this situation that seemed to really get out of control.

I don't believe sharing a room with same sex siblings is a hardship. I do think that a boy entering puberty should have a lot more privacy then what seems to be the case. And that having to share a room with his mother and 14 yr old sister is probably really difficult for him.

I don't think it is fair to dismiss the boy's issue because kids in other countries don't have any privacy so why should he.

At any rate it is all speculation since the OP has never come back to say what steps she has taken to work through this incident with her boy, or more importantly why she thought it happened in the first place.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

If the boy had to share a room with two brothers, he still wouldn't have any privacy. And if he needed to do certain "things" which required privacy, he would probably do those things in the bathroom or shower.

The suggestion someone made earlier that maybe the basement could be converted into a "quiet place" for the boy was a good one. But I don't see why the kid needs privacy with which to sleep at night. I'm assuming the child isn't confined to this shared bedroom during the course of the day.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

I think the level of comfort with sharing a room with brothers vs. a mother and older sister would be greater.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> With regards to the sleeping arrangements....
> 
> ...


----------



## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> I think the level of comfort with sharing a room with brothers vs. a mother and older sister would be greater.


Exactly. I'm not saying kids need their own rooms. My kids won't have their own rooms. But my son won't be sharing a room with me when he's 9!


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## midnightwriter (Jan 1, 2009)

Before the privilige and wealth, girls were married off at early teens, often without their consent, and by 40 were old and sick, with 15 children, half of them dead. Women had little rights, and physical punishment was rampant. It isn't logical or fair to pick and choose aspects relevant to other cultures at other times, when it suits our needs, and it isn't applicable to many modern situations and living arrangments.

I don't agree that is is not healthy for a 9 year old to share a room with his mother and sister. For many families, it is healthy and normal. However it becomes unhealthy when both parties involved are so upset by the situation that one locks himself in the room, and the other can't see it as a minor hiccup, and freaks out over it as though a crime was committed, and then retaliates.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> The idea that people have to have separate sleeping areas at all is one of privilege and wealth, and is largely based on Puritanical hang-ups. Do you think the native Americans had separate tipis for their pre-teen offspring? Were their progeny all psychologically damaged by having to sleep with their parents and siblings? Heck, lots of kids worldwide not only sleep with their entire families, but are present in the room when their parents engage in sex.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> I've forgiven myself for them, and now at the age of 19 he freely admits that he was a little sh*t as a kid. We're only human.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PlayaMama*


Yeah.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

As a former 9 year old boy... I can say that I really don't think locking himself in the bedroom when he has no real private space is probably not an act of spite, or disobedience, or cutting off the family or any other negative things that have been mentioned here...

It's most likely a sign that (like many PP have mentioned) he needs his own space he can go to with a reasonable expectation of privacy. If only to have some "personal" time without fear of being walked in on, or some quiet time, or a chance to just not have to deal with everyone else for an hour.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cutie Patootie*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Playamama and Peainthepod, there's no need for the piteous smilies. My son is happy, and so am I. I suppose if we were all so miserable, he would have moved out by now. I take it as a sign of maturity that he can look back on the way he behaved and understand how stressed out the whole family was over it. He doesn't blame himself, and nobody blames him....but it was what it was. We made it through hell and back, and the judgement of a couple of strangers on a message board doesn't mean a whole lot to me...especially when those folks don't know our story. Kneejerk reactions are a dime a dozen.

As for the post about how awful native American women were treated in their cultures, that has nothing to do with whether or not it's harmful for children to share a room with their siblings and parents. Apples and oranges. Those who are adamant that a 9yo boy should not share a room with his mother are likely the same folks who become incensed when mainstream society insists that co-sleeping with a baby is harmful.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Those who are adamant that a 9yo boy should not share a room with his mother are likely the same folks who become incensed when mainstream society insists that co-sleeping with a baby is harmful.


No. I sleep with my babies. Because they are babies and utterly dependent upon me. A 9 year old boy OTOH (or for that matter, a 16 year old girl. How is she feeling about all this?) is a whole different scene.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

2xy- it's not that anyone is not happy right now... it's what the self-identification of being a piece of fecal matter reflects how your ds has internalized the value judgments placed upon his behaviour.

my dh still has to overcome the phrase, "too much to handle" because that's what his family always told him when he was a child. if i get frustrated with him, he turns it around on himself as having something wrong with himself because that was what he was told.

anyway, this is very OT i just wanted to clarify by sad face post.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Just wanted to say that the 16 y.o. is not sharing the bedroom, it's the 14 y.o. dd. who is sharing with Ruthla and her 9 y.o. son.

So I just wondered why there are three people in one room and one person in another room, and couldn't the two teen girls be in the same room? Wouldn't it be less stressful for the nine year old if he only had to share a bedroom with dear old mom, and not his teen sister as well?

Or, I've got the bedroom configuration all wrong. But that's my take on the information provided.

I really did not appreciate the finger wagging. That was rude and condescending.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PlayaMama*
> 
> 2xy- it's not that anyone is not happy right now... it's what the self-identification of being a piece of fecal matter reflects how your ds has internalized the value judgments placed upon his behaviour.
> 
> anyway, this is very OT i just wanted to clarify by sad face post.


This.

I'm sorry you felt attacked, 2xy. That wasn't my intention. It's just hard to reconcile referring to a child as "a little sh*t" with GD and attached parenting. I would be devastated if any of my children ever internalized that about themselves. And with all due respect, my very authoritarian parents, who demeaned, punished, and belittled us on a daily basis, also insist that everyone is happy and that they did a great job--but the truth is, their methods were very damaging to all of us in different but noticeable ways. In fact, they did such a great job that I've chosen to cut them out of my life.

I'm not saying you're like them, but it's pretty hard to see someone, especially here, call their little one a name like that. It's not okay with me because I know firsthand what internalizing that sort of label can do to a child.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> With regards to the sleeping arrangements....
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *midnightwriter*
> 
> Before the privilige and wealth, girls were married off at early teens, often without their consent, and by 40 were old and sick, with 15 children, half of them dead. Women had little rights, and physical punishment was rampant. *It isn't logical or fair to pick and choose aspects relevant to other cultures at other times, when it suits our needs, and it isn't applicable to many modern situations and living arrangments.*
> 
> ...


Yep to that -- the fact is, in this culture he's probably getting the message that the way he has to live is probably not all that fair. There may be lots of other kids in the whole world who live that way (and the fairness of that is, frankly, arguable), but in the culture in which he is being raised, that's the message he gets.

As far as the "it's actually NATURAL for everyone to be sleeping in one rooom" argument: Many native cultures send their adolescents off to live in houses with their age-mates. Also, the older sister would probably be married by now and in her own house.

Also, in any appeal to what is "natural," remember that truly "natural" humans (hunter-gatherers) space their babies not much more than 4-5 years apart, which means that if they marry or move into adolescent housing at 16, it would be unlikely anyone would ever have more than 3 at home at once (given age spacing and child mortality).


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## txbikegrrl (Jul 20, 2006)

Well, even in America there are subcultures where families are sharing houses. Many that I work with have 5+ adults and 5+ kids living in a small 2 bdrm 1 bath home not well kept up because the landlord doesn't make waves about the number of people there so the occupants feel lucky to have "good" housing. So many of the students I work with tell me about not being able to go to sleep until dinner is over (late) and they can roll out their blankets...


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

And in this natural, everyone in one room, from what I've heard of it, kids were also exposed to their parents having sex throughout all of that. It was simply how it was, and why sex education is so tricky in some of these cultures now, because kids know SO much from so early on. Should we all replicate that as well?

I think there's a line somewhere that has to be drawn, and it will of course vary from family to family, as to how much autonomy is appropriate for children as they grow up. Personally, I wouldn't want my 4 and 9 year old boys sleeping in the same room as my DH and I, and while I think they'd be fine with it now, I doubt they always would.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PlayaMama*
> 
> 2xy- it's not that anyone is not happy right now... it's what the self-identification of being a piece of fecal matter reflects how your ds has internalized the value judgments placed upon his behaviour.
> 
> ...


Did you really think that my son believes he is a piece of crap? Are you assuming that he's been told he's a piece of crap? FWIW, name-calling has never been allowed in my house.

Maybe there are regional differences, but referring to a kid as "a little sh*t" is not a reference in a literal sense. It's more of a ******* or non-PC way of calling a child "spirited." Just because I used that phrase HERE does not mean that I've ever called my son a piece of sh*t. Good grief! It's like if someone came online to vent that their kid was behaving like a mean little brat (which kids do, from time to time)....it doesn't mean that mama is at home calling her kid a mean little brat!

I'm sorry that your DH has issues, but my son doesn't think there is anything wrong with himself. He's one of the most content-in-his-own-skin people I know.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Amen. Thank you for your openess and honesty. I think it does our kids no favors if we censor even our own THOUGHTS and frustrations over when they are behaving, well, pretty badly. Sometimes doing that helps us to get it out elsewhere so we can respond vs. react. Versus someone who feels like they must be sweetness and light and saintly patient until one day they go nuclear and do major damage to their kid(s) because they think they're horrible for even thinking that so they stuff it until it finally explodes.

Plus, I don't know, really, none of us can look back and ever see where we might have been little brats? Hell, I sure can. The fact that a son can look back and say, "Wow mom, I really was a little turd to you sometimes" is a good thing, does that not speak more of attachment than a kid who can't ever feel like they can be so vulnerable or who has been raised to think they can do no wrong? AP is all about raising kids who never can see their own past mistakes/lesser moments/frailties, or at least, never admit them? That doesn't sound like such a great thing, if you ask me.

I *expect* that sometimes my kids WILL be brats. So was I *at times*, as well as everyone I know (except for the people who can't bring themselves to admit to any failings). Knowing that my kids are human and thus will indulge their selfish, uncaring side on occasion helps me deal compassionately as I can while it's going on.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Just because I used that phrase HERE does not mean that I've ever called my son a piece of sh*t. Good grief! It's like if someone came online to vent that their kid was behaving like a mean little brat (which kids do, from time to time)....it doesn't mean that mama is at home calling her kid a mean little brat!


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Maybe there are regional differences, but referring to a kid as "a little sh*t" is not a reference in a literal sense. It's more of a ******* or non-PC way of calling a child "spirited."


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Call me crazy, but I thought it was kinda sweet when 2xy said her son acknowledged how challenging he was at times. That's all "little $hit" means, to me anyhow. It's great that he can reflect back as a young man and realize his behavior wasn't the greatest throughout the years. Sure, it would be better if he had just been a pure angel, but really, what kid - especially teen - is?


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

i choose not to refer to my children in a derogatory fashion.

this does not mean that i censor myself regarding their actions







or pretend that they are incapable of behaving in ways that are difficult to deal with. however, when we discuss behaviour, well, it's all about the behaviour not about the child or their value.

when you refer to your child _being_ something, *you've just assigned them inherent characteristics based upon their behaviour*. you know that behaviour is transient but inherent characteristics are not, right?

i'm sure your ds fully acknowledges that he was whatever you told him he was and is happy with it. i'm sure, in fact, that he thinks that his behaviour was what caused you to describe him that way. that is what makes me sad, regardless of how comfortable he is with himself and how well adjusted you've deemed him to be.

i fully understand that i've probably spent a lot more time thinking about language and it's subtle influences in our society than other folks. i'm okay with that.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

That horse is pretty high. Don't fall off.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

treating my children with respect in thought and action is my guiding principle in parenting.

i'm not quite sure if it's a high horse, but i am rather inflexible about it, so i guess you could call it that if you like.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

PlayaMama,

I don't think you are reading what she wrote. SHE did not call him that or refer to him like that. HE is the one who classified himself that way. HUGE difference.

My parents never called me a snot, or a terrible big sister, or the black sheep of the family. But in looking back, seeing who I was and who I've now become, I can freely and honestly admit I was all those things. So what? I was, I changed, I grew up. It says nothing about how my parents treated me.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Anastasiya*
> 
> PlayaMama,
> 
> ...


it was the "freely admits" part that implied to me that the child had accepted the label given to him by someone else.

if the admitting wasn't done "freely" then it would have been done under duress.

i would hope that my children will be able to say something like, "i acted the best way i knew how with the skills that i had at the time. because i was a child and deserving of understanding when my behaviour made a situation difficult."

edit: why does this sort of behaviour need "admitting" anyway? is it because it is shameful or bad or guilt-inducing? i don't get it...


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## daisymama12 (Jul 2, 2006)

to you, Ruthla. Hope things have settled down. I've read your posts for years now, and know you are a loving, attentive mama. I assume the tiff is well-over by now, and you've addressed whatever needed to be addressed.

I totally get what you meant, 2xy, you were being supportive of Ruthla, in a "btdt" kind of way.









I routinely tell my kids we're all on the same journey, trying to be more patient, more understanding, use quiet voices, etc.

We are 4 people living in a small space, and all of us have big emotions (we're a dramatic kind of family - good and bad). I tell them we all say the wrong thing sometimes, or behave in a less than ideal way, but you pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and carry on trying to be better.


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## daisymama12 (Jul 2, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PlayaMama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I think you are reading a lot into it that really isn't there.

2XY explained that that her son is doing great, that they have overcome a lot, that they have a loving relationship. Why not believe her?


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

i feel that the language we use is worth examining. both in terms of what we mean explicitly and implicitly. i think that acceptance of the language that is frequently used in our society to refer to children with little examination of the underlying meanings is detrimental to our children.

and now, really, we're off-topic.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

i would hope that my children will be able to say something like, "i acted the best way i knew how with the skills that i had at the time. because i was a child and deserving of understanding when my behaviour made a situation difficult."

But children DON"T always act the best way they know how with the skills that they have, any more than adults do. Sometimes children are deliberately difficult, just as adults are.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Deliberately difficult, stubbornly and purposefully obtuse, jaw dropping self righteous attitudes -adults exhibit all kinds of difficult behaviors.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PlayaMama*
> 
> i feel that the language we use is worth examining. both in terms of what we mean explicitly and implicitly. i think that acceptance of the language that is frequently used in our society to refer to children with little examination of the underlying meanings is detrimental to our children.
> 
> and now, really, we're off-topic.


There's a huge difference between examining our own issues and judging someone else based on nothing more than a passing comment. Gently, you might want to give some thought as to which side of that line you are on.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *choli* 



> i would hope that my children will be able to say something like, "i acted the best way i knew how with the skills that i had at the time. because i was a child and deserving of understanding when my behaviour made a situation difficult."
> 
> But children DON"T always act the best way they know how with the skills that they have, any more than adults do. Sometimes children are deliberately difficult, just as adults are.


hmmm... i'm not sure if i agree with this (when my children are difficult, it's not a deliberate action that is intended to make my day harder (who even does that?), it's more likely because they need to eat or sleep or be acknowledged) but even if it were true, i guess that i would still argue that they are deserving of understanding rather than labeling.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Karenwith4*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


i don't feel that the language we as a society use regarding children is a personal issue.

i think that the language we use reflects our attitudes and feelings towards things in ways we may not be aware of. an examination of what underlies this language is important in understanding how our thoughts are framed.

for example, the use of the word hysterical to refer to a woman that is out of control emotionally. it's a sexist term that is not equally applied to men. why? maybe because women's emotions are seen as irrational and illogical and "not male" and therefore deserving of scorn and derision.

i understand that many people are willing to use the language that they hear around them without examining it. obviously i can't force anyone to think about something they don't want to think about. i'm sure some people will be thinking that i'm reading too much into it.

but i do think that in an example in which blame is placed upon a child for the parent's reactions it could be worthwhile examining how what you really feel is expressed by what you say. i accept that others may disregard this and continue to focus on the behavior. i'm sure we're all just doing the best we can.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> Deliberately difficult, stubbornly and *purposefully obtuse*, jaw dropping self righteous attitudes -adults exhibit all kinds of difficult behaviors.


agreed! especially with the bolded.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *choli*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seriously? How old are your kids? Because my 2 year old and infant do not try and irritate me. When they are acting out it is because they have a need that is unmet. My 6 year old will be a brat just because. She will say things/do things just to get a rise outta me. I also remember being a teenager and irritating my brother or dad just because i was being a butthead.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PlayaMama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Philosophically speaking I may agree with you but you made this personal in addressing one poster's comment about her SON'S perception of his childhood behaviour and so imo your attempt to claim this is a philosophical discussion falls flat.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale* 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PlayaMama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I was also wondering how old her kids are, b/c there are times when mine surely are trying to get me going, or someone else. Maybe it's b/c I have four kids; maybe they are even fighting for attention some days, but kids are not completely innocent angels who only act out when they are hungry or tired.


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## azgirl (Nov 27, 2006)

I don't know many people who think/talk the way you are suggesting is the healthy/ideal way to think/talk at the age of 19. Or ever. Not even happy, well-adjusted people...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PlayaMama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


----------



## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale* 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PlayaMama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


my kids are two and six and i work with children and teens.

i think that "getting a rise" out of you also represents an unmet need. you're attributing a different motive to the behaviour than i am, which probably represents a differing perspective of the interaction.

i honestly do not recall behaving in a difficult fashion because i wanted to irritate anyone. my teen years were not all rainbows and sparkles, but most often i was reacting to my perception of unfair treatment. i was not a spiteful teen and i have a difficult time trying to use this perspective to view the interaction.


----------



## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Karenwith4*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


well, i wasn't intending to have a philosophical discussion about this in a thread about ruthla's son needing space. i wasn't intending to have this discussion at all. my response to the post in this thread was an attempt at acknowledging the harmful way that i feel language is used with children. another poster agreed with me about this reaction and expressed her own feelings about growing up in a household where language like this was commonly used.

i attempted to explain my views on the language that was being used and why i felt that was important in more than just a "PC vs. "non-PC" way, as the response of the poster indicated that the phrasing she used was a local cultural norm for her.

i was trying to discuss a larger view of language and its uses, but it was originally based upon a single example.


----------



## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


this is the second time i have been accused of thinking that my children are angels.









rest assured, my children can exhibit difficult behaviour! i choose not to use that behaviour as a reason to label my children with derogatory terms because i feel that it leads to a negative perspective.

there is also the acknowledged portion that i wrote after the hungry and tired portion above. most any other action of my children falls into that category as i choose to view their behaviour as something that belongs to them, not something that is aimed at me.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Must just be different personalities then. Yes, most the time i can pinpoint an unmet need but plenty of people i know just are irritating to be so. I LOVED the drama. I loved to be dramatic and cause a little scene. My sister loved to wear my clothes or shoes because it was so funny to her to see me freak out about her "gross germs" all over my stuff. My daughter will tell you she says things to me and dh to "see the reaction." Usually the response i got from my dd or other kids (much younger sisters, kids i taught/tutored/worked with) was "i thought it was funny" or some variation of the above.

Even now as an adult sometimes i will do something just to irk dh. I am not mad at him or have any other reason other then to just mildly annoy him. I still do it to my mom and dad occasionally. Some examples are letting my son wear a girly outfit (makes my dad totally annoyed), let my kids wear their hair down - if it gets anywhere near their eyes both my mom and dad are so irritated. I could pick out gender "appropriate" clothes, or put their hair back but sometimes i choose to just annoy my parents because it is funny.


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## daisymama12 (Jul 2, 2006)

> > .
> 
> 
> Must just be different personalities then. Yes, most the time i can pinpoint an unmet need but plenty of people i know just are irritating to be so. I LOVED the drama. I loved to be dramatic and cause a little scene. My sister loved to wear my clothes or shoes because it was so funny to her to see me freak out about her "gross germs" all over my stuff. My daughter will tell you she says things to me and dh to "see the reaction." Usually the response i got from my dd or other kids (much younger kids, kids i taught/tutored/worked with) was "i thought it was funny" or some variation of the above.
> ...


You're not doing it because it's funny, you're doing it because you have unmet needs; your parents don't love you unconditionally, manifested in judgment about gender and neuroses about hair.

jk!






























And again, 2XY did NOT label her son with derogatory terms!


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daisymama12*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No. That may be why YOU do it, but that does not mean that everyone else has your issues.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *daisymama12*
> 
> 
> 
> ...












2xy may not have directly stated to her ds something derogatory, but she willingly participated in the societal use of those terms towards her ds.

again, it's obvious that others are fine with negative terminology being directed towards children. i'm not and i feel comfortable saying that, regardless of how you choose to interpret it and how funny you find it as a joke.

if language doesn't have power then why do we have "bad words" or names that are offensive to people? there are many derogatory slurs that are not used when speaking respectfully of others, i fail to see why children should be exempt from words that are intended to label and dismiss their humantiy.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PlayaMama*
> 
> this is the second time i have been accused of thinking that my children are angels. " rel="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/lol.gif">
> 
> ...


(I don't know what's up with the crazy quoting, but I'm too lazy to delete parts while posting from my phone.)

Anyhow, I wasn't saying your kids only misbehave when tired or hungry; that's just what I've read/heard before - as if it's the only viable excuse. I've even used it IRL myself.









Playa, FWIW, I feel like I'm always thinking "yeah that" when I read post of yours, I just dont happen to agree with you on this issue. I didn't think twice when 2xy quoted her DS; like I said, I kinda thought it was sweet he was acknowledging (maybe even apologizing) for his demeanor over the years. I should probably do that for my parents.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

honestly, i feel like i'm taking this issue WAY too far for the thread and i can't figure out why...

it might be because i have a huge project due for school and i'm trying to distract myself.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PlayaMama*
> 
> honestly, i feel like i'm taking this issue WAY too far for the thread and i can't figure out why...
> 
> it might be because i have a huge project due for school and i'm trying to distract myself.


Well, you may be... lol But I just wanted to say that, for whatever reason (and I think it's probably bc my mother talked about me in the same sorts of terms, only joking of course, but with more than a kernel of truth), I am really sensitive to people talking about their children in such terms. I wince whenever I see it online or hear it irl, and it happens *all*the*time. ITA with your analysis of the whole thing. BUT, maybe the way I see it that way is bc of how I was raised and how that sort of language was used to describe me. When I point it out to my good friend, who loves to refer to her child as a little sh*t, she thinks it's just crazy that I could have a problem with it. I almost believe her. But I still wince.


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