# "The monster"



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I have asked you about this problem before, but it is getting worse.

I have a three year old daycare girl that had never eaten a "meal" before coming to me in July. They just keep crackers, fruit, etc on the counter for the whole family.

Well, since having a sit down social type meal, she has this uncontrollable monster that tells her to eat 24/7.

SHe never stops. She thinks about food all the time. If I ask her "What color is this?" she answerws "I waffle?????? I waffle????" If I try to read a book, she will interrupt with "I eat? I apple?" every page. It's endless.

As soon as Mom walks in she says "Candy!" meaning she wants to get home to eat her Halloween candy. But she ate all the candy the night she got it.

When her parents go to bed, she gets up and eats everything within reach in the kitchen. They have had to lock the fridge. (I think they did that before her coming here though)

WHen she gets here in the morning, she is starving. So, she eats breakfast, she eats more than twice what the other kids eat. But, it never fills her up. All morning, she wants food, and more food. I tell her "We will eat at____" and she will ask a minute later. If I walk into the kitchen, she yells "Yay eat" and throws herself at the table.

If I let her in the kitchen alone, she will eat out of the trash.

Now, I know I kinda created the monster. But, I did what I always do, I just fed her. I certainly didn't mean to cause an obsession.

We CANNOT get it to stop. No matter what we do. I was willing to try having her NOT eat meals with the other kids, but the stress that creates is not worth it. I cut her off of food at what I feel is more than enough food. She is getting plenty to eat here.

Anyway, I am rambling. I need new and wild ideas on how to get rid of the food monster. She needs to be able to function without this obsession. It has been four months. I thought by now, she would get over the novelty of eating differently. It's MUCH worse than even two months ago.

(they don't go to doctors, they don't use medicine, so sending her to the doctor is not an option)


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

There are some hormonal disorders that can cause a feeling of constant hunger in both children and adults. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pra...ndrome/AN00477
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/con...plasia/AN01040

If she has one of those and they don't go to doctors, you might just be out of luck.







Although, doctors often can't do anything about it anyway, so you might be out of luck anyway. Do they go to alternative medicine practitioners?


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Have you tried just letting her eat her fill? My son obsesses about candy for any candy holiday so I just let him eat until its gone or he stops on his own. Most time eats about 6-10 pieces and then that's it. He loses interest a little more each day. At Halloween this year I threw away his basket of Easter candy still 3/4 full. Once he ate so much broccoli (his favorite food) that he got sick. It was a powerful lesson that eating too much of any foods makes you not feel good.

That said I just read about a disease I have never heard of before. I doubt this it since it is so rare. But if they dont see health practitioners I am not sure that it matters.

Quote:

Prader-Willi syndrome, a chromosomal disorder that is the most common known genetic cause of obesity, affecting about 1 in 14,000 people. People with the syndrome can literally eat themselves to death, either rupturing their stomachs or growing fatally obese by early adulthood.

Punishments, rewards, diet pills -- nothing works against the deep drive to eat, fueled by a flaw in the hypothalamus, the part of the brain that controls appetite. People with Prader-Willi (pronounced PRAHDER-WILLEE) tend never to feel full; some spend their whole lives ravenous and can gain 20 to 30 pounds in a single weekend.

"Telling them to learn to control themselves is like saying, 'If I had the right reinforcements, I could learn to be 6 feet tall' -- I can't learn to do it, it's not possible for me, it's not a choice," said Dr. Chris Gordon, medical director of Advocates, the large mental health agency that runs the Hudson house.

http://www.boston.com/yourlife/healt...l_dieters_too/


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## NotTheOnlyOne (Oct 23, 2006)

yep. Prader WIllie, thats exactly what I thought when I read the post, is she overweight? Generally those with the syndrome are, even as toddlers.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom* 
That said I just read about a disease I have never heard of before. I doubt this it since it is so rare. But if they dont see health practitioners I am not sure that it matters.


YIKES! O.K, a disorder, never actually occured to me.

She is also behind in most other areas. Social, verbal, small motor. I will look into these ideas.

But, they are very much against doctors and medications.

And, I did let her eat a whole pot of MAcaroni and cheese once. It didn't seem to bother her. But it made MY stomach hurt.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtosimon* 
is she overweight? Generally those with the syndrome are, even as toddlers.

She isn't really yet, but she has definatley gained weight lately.


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## rharr! (Nov 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
YIKES! O.K, a disorder, never actually occured to me.

She is also behind in most other areas. Social, verbal, small motor. I will look into these ideas.

That Prader willi was my thought as well, though I could not remember the name.

I think people with this disorder are developmentally delayed, and possibly permanently elayed. There was a girl on Dr. Phil with this.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Okay I'm a little confused. She was a healthy weight before, and had no food obsession, and ate what/when she wanted...and now that she is on a schedule, she's obsessed with food and is gaining weight?

My instinct would say to go back to what worked for her before...although you are saying that won't work because you need a schedule. But if it's a question of her health (gaining weight and being obsessed with food), then I think it's important to do what works for *her*.

As far her having a disorder, it sounds like this behavior surfaced only when changes were made to her routine. Is that correct?


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Prader Willi is the first syndrome I linked to, and unfortunately there isn't much that can be done about it-- the link I had said something about growth hormone treatments, but they still don't know how effective they are. So until an actual cure is discovered, going to a doctor might not do any good anyway.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Okay I'm a little confused. She was a healthy weight before, and had no food obsession, and ate what/when she wanted...and now that she is on a schedule, she's obsessed with food and is gaining weight?

My instinct would say to go back to what worked for her before...although you are saying that won't work because you need a schedule. But if it's a question of her health (gaining weight and being obsessed with food), then I think it's important to do what works for *her*.

As far her having a disorder, it sounds like this behavior surfaced only when changes were made to her routine. Is that correct?

Yes, as far as I know, she ate a bite here, and a bite there. But never gorged herself like she is now. My only question in this is (I asked the MOm today) is that they have had locks on the fridge and a door knob cover for the pantry since she learned to open the doors, "because she helps herself all the time otherwise". But, now she can get into the pantry, and will stay up half the night eating the food in there. While her parents sleep.

But the obsession has only been since she started coming here. It was from the first day though. In the beginning, I couldn't get her to sit at the table and eat. She wanted to eat, but not while sitting. Now she would eat standing on her head.

I have six other kids, and they all eat meals. So, there is no way I can leave food out for them to eat, because some would eat all day, and others wouldn't eat at all. The parents would want to know what I fed them and I wouldn't be able to answer. We eat breakfast lunch and two snacks. Besides, I am on the food program, and that wouldn't be allowed anyway. PLUS, I just don't want to do that.

I haven't looked into the links that were provided. I have been doing banking stuff, I will read through them tonight after Grey's anatomy. (gotta see what happens w/ McSteamy)


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I would definately consider a disorder ...... while it seems like the obsession started when she came there it may not have. Especially considering the locks on the doors at home because she helps herself all the time....


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

I wonder if her issue is food like some kids get stuck on trains, lining up cars etc. I would ask the parents to at least consider having her evaluated...I see a few red flags.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

I think I said this the last time this child was brought up, but I have serious questions about how much food, and of how nutritious a variety, is actually provided for her at home. "Letting the children graze," as a nutritional philosophy, does not seem compatible with locking up the food. I have a real fear that something is not right in that family - not just because of this, but also because of other things you've said.

It may well be a disorder like Prader Willi, or even something scary like a tumor affecting her hypothalamus, which regulates the appetite. Or it may be that she is hungry enough at daycare - hungry enough to eat garbage - because she is not being fed at home.

In any case, my gut reaction is that this is not something that you caused, or something that you can control.


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## GypsyGrin (Nov 7, 2006)

As a teenager I went to school w/a boy who suffered from a disorder that left him unable to fill full. Much of what you write here sounds very familiar . . . eating out of garbage, having to lock up food, constant talking abour food.







He was very spitty, not drooling per say, but very wet.

I always felt horrible for him as the guys on the football team would toss food on the floor to watch him run after it and eat it. He made it hard for me to defend him because he didn't appreciate me telling them to stop - he just wanted the food.







Although honestly, he was always happy enough . . .


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

"Letting the children graze," as a nutritional philosophy, does not seem compatible with locking up the food.
Good point. I'm not getting it either. But we don't know the full story.

Ultimately I think your only choice as a provider, is to decide whether you want to care for the child with these issues. It's up to her parents to decide how they want to approach the issue itself.


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## NotTheOnlyOne (Oct 23, 2006)

I'd have to say this "problem" didnt start because of daycare. You said she was like that from day one? I'd guess her parents dont want you to know something (either they suspect a disorder and are scared to test for it or they are neglacting her).... I do home daycare too, and in your situation, if they parents refuse to get her checked you can call social services to get there opinion. Not to turn her in or anything, just to ask what they think about it. Obviously something is not right with her and she needs some help. btw, Prader Willi syndrome typically has a "moon shaped" face that goes with it. ALmost like a down syndrome's face.


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## lotsofkids (Aug 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rivka5* 
I think I said this the last time this child was brought up, but I have serious questions about how much food, and of how nutritious a variety, is actually provided for her at home. "Letting the children graze," as a nutritional philosophy, does not seem compatible with locking up the food. I have a real fear that something is not right in that family - not just because of this, but also because of other things you've said.



OMG! I am thinking the SAME thing. Something isn't right. They could be starving the child. She's NEVER HAD A MEAL? That is bizarre! Perhaps, she's always been starving, and for the first time in her life you are providing her with food - all the food she can eat. She may be in survival mode. This just does not sound right to me! Please, feed her. Please, observe the parents.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

She's NEVER HAD A MEAL? That is bizarre!
I don't know about that family or not, but the concept of "grazing" is very popular within ap, particularly with toddlers. Ds never had "meals" per se; I used a Dr. Sears approach and filled ice cube trays with bite sized bits of different foods, and kept that within his reach all day.

We also had a lock of the fridge when ds was a toddler~although not because of food. I was terrified he'd climb inside it and the door would shut behind him. Or that he would try to climb up the glass shelves and hurt himself.


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I don't know about that family or not, but the concept of "grazing" is very popular within ap, particularly with toddlers. Ds never had "meals" per se; I used a Dr. Sears approach and filled ice cube trays with bite sized bits of different foods, and kept that within his reach all day.

I'm fine with grazing. I think it is best for people, esp. children. However, I remember in the last post about this girl that her family literally had never cooked a meal. I don't think that cooking is part of good parenting but almost everyone cooks occasionally. That seems strange to me. Even if I were grazing all day long I don't think that I or my children would feel sustained by cold snack foods. My children snack all day long. I still think it is good for them to have a prepared meal for lunch or dinner even if they don't eat a meal sized portion. They can snack on it again later.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I don't know about that family or not, but the concept of "grazing" is very popular within ap, particularly with toddlers. Ds never had "meals" per se; I used a Dr. Sears approach and filled ice cube trays with bite sized bits of different foods, and kept that within his reach all day.

This is what they do. From her description. When I first met them, they told me she isn't a big eater. Mom was here the first day at lunch time, and she said "I can't beleive how much she is eating, she never eats this much at home". I didn't pay much attention, because I was trying to get her to stay at the table, because she was shoveling raviolis in her mouth and running through the house. She was also shoving everybody elses raviolis in her mouth as she ran by. Mom seemed genuinely surprised at how much she ate. I was genuinely surprised at her table manners. LOL. So, my ONLY concern was to teach her to eat ONLY off of her plate. (she does) And to sit at the table, or at least stand in front of the table (she does) and to use a spoon and fork (not there yet)

What I do know, is they do NOT fix them any breakfast. Nothing to drink, or eat in the mornings, they just bring them to me. SO, she is truly hungry when she gets here. But, I am not exaggerating when I say she can eat six eggos in one sitting, and still want more. At first I was buying them organic food, but it was costing me more than they were paying (slight exaggeration) and now they eat what the others eat. I offered mom the choice of bringing organic food, but she chose to let them eat what the others are eating.

I would not drop them over this. I doubt the parents would pull them out over this. I have had other kids with little quirks that drive me batty. But, looking back, it was never a "bad" thing. Just a temporary annoyance. I adore these kids, and I want to make things easier on her. I SOOOOO want her to "fit in". She watches the other kids play, and she tries to do what they do, but she just can't quite fit in yet. PArt of that is because she doesn't have conversational speech.


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## lotsofkids (Aug 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaomiLorelie* 
I'm fine with grazing. I think it is best for people, esp. children. However, I remember in the last post about this girl that her family literally had never cooked a meal. I don't think that cooking is part of good parenting but almost everyone cooks occasionally. That seems strange to me. Even if I were grazing all day long I don't think that I or my children would feel sustained by cold snack foods. My children snack all day long. I still think it is good for them to have a prepared meal for lunch or dinner even if they don't eat a meal sized portion. They can snack on it again later.

I agree that my children graze all day long, but they do get meals, that they often don't eat.









I just had never heard of this part of AP. How could I of missed this? Okay, for the sake of argument, we know that different things work for different children. What if this particular philosophy on this particular child, has caused the child's personality to envoke a primitive scavenger need to eat. What if she is "hoarding" food when it's available in an attempt to sustain herself during the "lean" times? Could that be possible? Could it be that it's like taking a cave person, whos' always had to hunt and gather, and putting them in a buffet?


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## rileysmommy (Dec 11, 2004)

as soon as i read this i was screaming PRADAR WILLI!!!!

to me its times like this, being so wholly anti doctor, is just not a safe thing.
i am anti-establishment, but well... i think having appropriate contacts in place for when you need them is just so important.

grazing is one thing, but what this kid is doing is not grazing.
especially when she just stuffs and stuffs herself so full, and still wants more and more and more.

i had a grazer.. and this( what you describe) is not grazing


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Like lots of kids coming out of orphanages, dd has had food obsessions, which are simply physiologic because the babies were relatively starved for most of their early lives.

We always let her eat whenever she wanted. We do, however, also expect her to sit down and eat with us at meals. Sometimes she eats well at meals, sometimes she just picks, can't wait to get out of her chair, and needs lots of encouragement and redirection from us. Whatever - she's a child.

I never tell dd that she can't have something to eat if she's hungry, and the idea of doing that makes me pretty uncomfortable. The one exception might be the middle of the night, when I just encourage her to hold off until morning for breakfast.

I think the real issue is about food _choices_. Dd would almost assuredly be obese or at least overweight if we let her eat junkfood in an unrestricted way. So what we do instead is just not keep junkfood in the house. That way when she's hungry in between meals, her choices are fresh fruit, raisins, dry cereal, wheat toast, or other wholesome snacks. If she knows that there are potato chips, gummy bears or chocolate in the cupboard, it's just useless trying to get her to forget about those and focus on more healthy foods. So we just don't buy them in the first place.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I just had never heard of this part of AP. How could I of missed this?
I read it in Dr. Sears "The Baby Book". It's in a section on feeding toddlers. I used it because ds wasn't interested in sitting still or sitting down to eat when he was little. I put things in an ice cube tray like: avocado pieces, cheese bits, small crackers, fruit slices, nut butters for dipping, plain rice, veggie matchsticks, cubed tofu etc. He was also drinking a fair amount of soy milk at that age (2). He did like pasta and pizza, and he often had Muesli organic baby cereal for breakfast, up until about 3 years old (it's like oatmeal). Ds was very healthy considering his complex medical history. Never overweight or obsessed with food. Grazing was a good approach for us.


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I read it in Dr. Sears "The Baby Book". It's in a section on feeding toddlers. I used it because ds wasn't interested in sitting still or sitting down to eat when he was little. I put things in an ice cube tray like: avocado pieces, cheese bits, small crackers, fruit slices, nut butters for dipping, plain rice, veggie matchsticks, cubed tofu etc. He was also drinking a fair amount of soy milk at that age (2). He did like pasta and pizza, and he often had Muesli organic baby cereal for breakfast, up until about 3 years old (it's like oatmeal). Ds was very healthy considering his complex medical history. Never overweight or obsessed with food. Grazing was a good approach for us.

I could be wrong but from all of her other posts I get the impression that the foods offered at home are not a healthy balance of fats, carbs, and protiens like you offered.

I understand that at MDC we are very quick to defend parents when they do things that are different from the norm because we do to, but I think these parents are neglectful at best. She has arrived for the day dirty and literally stinking. They lock their cabinet and refridgerator. They refuse to even consider seeing someone. I understand the desire to avoid Dr's but in a case like this (developmental delays, abnormal behaviors) I'd be curious at least for a diagnoses to point me in the right direction.

I feel that these parents aren't completely honest as they seem to not give much information as to what is going on with her at home or they give information only when it becomes neccesary due to problems at homecare. Kim seems to be pretty open to differences in parenting and it isn't helpful for her to be out of the loop when she spends so much time caring for this child.








:

Edited to add....I don't think that a parent that doesn't get medical care for their children is neccesarily neglectful. To me it is the combination of events that send up red flags.


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## fremontmama (Jun 11, 2004)

This thread caught my eye, and my impression is that this isn't strictly a behavior thing, that there are some real problems happening here. I dont have the expertise to know what they are, but it seems likes it's neglect or some sort of disorder. I dont think a kid who is just hungry and has behavior issues will eat out of the garbage, that is one of the statements that really rang out for me. It sounds like the parents dont want to take her to the doctor, but I think this girl really needs it.

Good luck nextcomm. I hope this works out soon for everyone.


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## chelsmm (Apr 10, 2005)

This sounds a lot like Prader-willi to me. I worked with a girl who had a daughter with this (we are nurses), so I learned a bit about it at the time. Her daughter was born with many feeding issues. She needed tube feedings when she was an infant. But, when she became toddler age, the food obsession began. These people do not feel their hunger is every satisfied. No matter what they eat, they will always want more. I've taken care of a few adults with this as well. They will eat out of the garbage, horde food, etc. It's so sad...
They have developmental delays that vary from person to person.
I didn't read all of the posts, but if the girl does have Prader-willi, then the standard approach would be to lock the food up (as horrible as that sounds, letting the child eat whatever/whenever would be very dangerous, and NO amount of behavioral intervention will help). This child NEEDS to see a doctor. I wonder if you printed out some info on this disease and gave it to the family, maybe they would consider seeing a doc?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I understand that at MDC we are very quick to defend parents when they do things that are different from the norm because we do to, but I think these parents are neglectful at best.
Without evidence of abuse being stated, I tend not to cast suspicion based on secondhand information. I'm not sure that is really helpful to the OP or the child.

Quote:

She has arrived for the day dirty and literally stinking.
Odd. I had the opposite impression~I remember a post saying the child was clean and otherwise healthy.


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 

Odd. I had the opposite impression~I remember a post saying the child was clean and otherwise healthy.

There have been several other posts about this child.


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=527021

Here it is.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaomiLorelie* 
I feel that these parents aren't completely honest as they seem to not give much information as to what is going on with her at home or they give information only when it becomes neccesary due to problems at homecare. Kim seems to be pretty open to differences in parenting and it isn't helpful for her to be out of the loop when she spends so much time caring for this child.








:

Edited to add....I don't think that a parent that doesn't get medical care for their children is neccesarily neglectful. To me it is the combination of events that send up red flags.









: Something is not right in this family.

My first thought when I read this post was not Prader-Willi, but "This is behavior of children who have been denied food." Children who are neglected or abused will hoard food and eat constantly until they learn that there will be enough food to feed them.

Whatever it is, it is out of the range of typical, even for atypical families. This child has:
-Clear developmental delays
-Issues with food
-Issues with cleanliness (coming to daycare with a diaper that had apparently not been changed for 24 hours)
-Issues with health (coming to daycare with pink eye so bad her eyes were crusted shut)

Personally, I think that the OP is doing a marvelous thing in keeping these children - she is providing a lot of stability and emotional support. But, I worry that these kids need more than that.

What we can't tell from second (third?) hand reports is what the parents role in all this is. But given the hearsay evidece, I don't trust them.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

So if the child DOES have Prader-Willi syndrome, what are the medical treatments? Is this something that really can be improved with modern medical care?


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

It can help with parts of it. http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic1880.htm

Quote:

"Medical Care:

Patients with PWS require medical care for the following:
Initial management of hypotonia/poor feeding
Evaluation for hypogonadism/hypopituitarism
Management of obesity
Monitoring for scoliosis
Therapy for behavioral issues
As of June 20, 2000, the FDA has approved the use of growth hormone in children with genetically confirmed PWS and evidence of growth failure.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Kim - any chance you can just have a sit down meeting with the parents about this and any other issues you have seen? I would be very hesitant to take in children as a provider if I felt I could not have that kind of relationship with the parents.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama* 
Kim - any chance you can just have a sit down meeting with the parents about this and any other issues you have seen? I would be very hesitant to take in children as a provider if I felt I could not have that kind of relationship with the parents.


I may do this. Perhaps after the Christmas Holiday. The problem is, I can't put my finger on what is wrong. They are never clean. They come in with a weekend's worth of dried snot streaked across each side of their faces. The oldes one doesn't talk. She says words, but she isn't really "talking". She can't hold a spoon, fork, crayon, paint brush... etc. She walks on her toes.

But on the other hand, the baby is doing amazing things for his age. So, how can they be so different. There is a two year age difference, and the baby is ahead of his sister in some ways. He doesn't have the food obsessions, he can hold a spoon and fork..

So, how do I say something without sounding like I think they are bad parents??? Especially since it is just one of the two kids with these problems??

I have asked them to have the older girl evaluated, and they absolutely refuse. Both of them are completely against it.

I don't really know much about the family. Mom will say things to me every now and then, like how difficult she is at home. But, she is pretty well behaved, and happy here. They claim she has torn off every cupboard door, and put holes in every wall in the house. She is NOTHING like that here.

But, since they are mostly VERY private, I have no idea what to do.


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## Zonie (Nov 8, 2006)

It sounds like she has developmental issues that have nothing to do with you. Other than the fact that the parents are ignoring these issues, they probably don't have much to do with the parents either. Developmental problems sometimes just happen. Especially since her baby brother has no delays.

I know it is hard, and you don't feel like it is your place, but I think you should ask them to PLEASE take her in for an evaluation. You live in Arizona? (me too) Our school district has a lot of free services. I know all the others have them as well. If this is a financial problem for them, maybe they don't know that the districts WANT these kids before they get into Kindergarten. Some kids just need a little extra help before they are in a classroom with 20 other kids.

I don't know much about most delays, but she sounds like she might have some form of Autism. Do you get the feeling that her delays might be something that has nothing to do with her home enviroment?


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## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
The problem is, I can't put my finger on what is wrong. They are never clean. They come in with a weekend's worth of dried snot streaked across each side of their faces.

. . .

So, how do I say something without sounding like I think they are bad parents???


Wow, you know, there is a such a thing as bad parents, and I would lump people who don't even wash their children into that category. Obviously you know them and I do not... but this sounds like neglect. As in CPS needs to be involved neglect. And I do not say that lightly. But from my readings here CPS doesn't automatically take kids away -- they can offer parenting classes, put the family in touch with resources that can help them, things like that. It sounds like a very sad situation.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtosimon* 
yep. Prader WIllie, thats exactly what I thought when I read the post, is she overweight? Generally those with the syndrome are, even as toddlers.


PW was sprung to mind for me too


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I may do this. Perhaps after the Christmas Holiday. The problem is, I can't put my finger on what is wrong. They are never clean. They come in with a weekend's worth of dried snot streaked across each side of their faces. The oldes one doesn't talk. She says words, but she isn't really "talking". She can't hold a spoon, fork, crayon, paint brush... etc. She walks on her toes.

But on the other hand, the baby is doing amazing things for his age. So, how can they be so different. There is a two year age difference, and the baby is ahead of his sister in some ways. He doesn't have the food obsessions, he can hold a spoon and fork..

So, how do I say something without sounding like I think they are bad parents??? Especially since it is just one of the two kids with these problems??

I have asked them to have the older girl evaluated, and they absolutely refuse. Both of them are completely against it.

I don't really know much about the family. Mom will say things to me every now and then, like how difficult she is at home. But, she is pretty well behaved, and happy here. They claim she has torn off every cupboard door, and put holes in every wall in the house. She is NOTHING like that here.

But, since they are mostly VERY private, I have no idea what to do.

it really could be PW, as that has a mental / psychological aspects to it as well as the problems with food


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

I agree that there is something going on...a disorder like PW perhaps combined with neglect.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

First, I agree that some type of developmental or medical evaluation is in order. While Pradar Willi is one possibility, but I would be aware that it ceratinly isn't the only medical one. We've had some experience with similar issues and were told that it isn't uncommon for kids to be missing the "off switch" with eating and that for these kids there needs to be more structure with eating not less. Kids with hypotonia often have very low sensation in the trunk so they may not feel full. I understand you may not have control over whether or not she gets an evaluation, but I wanted to mention that there other medical possibilities if PW doesn't seem like a fit. Even though the parents likely won't take you up on it, I would be clear what the situation is like when she's in care and offer them suggestions for evaluation options.

Second, I'm wondering how structured things are in your day care home right now. What I'd suggest would be to try using a visual schedule where she could see a list of the mornings activities - for example pictures of breakfast, playtime, music time, storytime then lunch. Then when she's saying "waffle" over and over again you can check the chart with her and show her it is after crafts. It may take days but if you stick with the routine and show her the chart over and over again she will catch on to the routine. This may help relieve some of her anxiety about food because she will better understand what to expect. When a person lacks natural cues in their body having some more artifical cues like this can really help lower stress.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Do you have formal parent-provider conferences? We have those in our day care and it would provide you an opportunity to open a dialog. Do *they* have concerns about her development? Goals they would like to work on together with you? Do they have any alternative practitioners? Are they Christian Scientists? Would they be open to another kind of religious or holistic practitioner?

I think the whole point that one child is on-target and the other is delayed is reason enough that it's not parenting, but it is developmental.

You can also acknowledge, that the subject of her evaluation is something that you will both "agree to disagree about" but that they are her parents and you will ultimately support their decision to do what is best for DD.


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## millionmom (Oct 30, 2005)

I'm not sure what advice I can offer that hasn't already been suggested. I do think that these parents sound neglectful, and it's terrible that their children are paying the price for this. I understand not wanting to go to the doctor for every little thing - but this doesn't sound little. I have found through working with children, that sometimes our parents don't want to take their children to the doctor because they don't want to pay the co-pay!

I'm not sure if it's PW (that's also what came to mind) or the result of neglect/abuse from an early age - really a professional needs to look at them. It sounds like this family is a bit much to take on.

I feel really bad for thier children. I want to hug my son tight right now!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 







: Something is not right in this family.

My first thought when I read this post was not Prader-Willi, but "This is behavior of children who have been denied food." Children who are neglected or abused will hoard food and eat constantly until they learn that there will be enough food to feed them.

Whatever it is, it is out of the range of typical, even for atypical families. This child has:
-Clear developmental delays
-Issues with food
-Issues with cleanliness (coming to daycare with a diaper that had apparently not been changed for 24 hours)
-Issues with health (coming to daycare with pink eye so bad her eyes were crusted shut)

Personally, I think that the OP is doing a marvelous thing in keeping these children - she is providing a lot of stability and emotional support. But, I worry that these kids need more than that.

What we can't tell from second (third?) hand reports is what the parents role in all this is. But given the hearsay evidece, I don't trust them.


Yeah to both of those. I've been worrying about this child, too. And didn't they tell you before they had no problems with her at home? And now it comes out that they do have a hard time with her?

I think their need for extreme privacy is a MAJOR concern. Like they have something to hide. Like they're paranoid, for a reason. If she were totally healthy and happy and they were just a little kooky, that'd be one thing. But the more I hear, the more I cringe. Please, please, have a serious talk with them. And if that doesn't work, I wish you'd call CPS.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

What would happen if you called CPS without giving any personal info? Start documenting the things that happen that YOU can observe, not what they have told you. Kind of like a nurse triage . . .you call them and let the pros tell you if it is considered neglect or not.

Are you a mandated reporter as a daycare provider?

This family is SO lucky to have you, even if they don't realize it now.


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

I've been thinking about this. If they are being neglected is it possible that the baby seems fine because he hasn't dealt with the situation as long? Or maybe he gets more attention because he's the baby? And all children are different and will deal with the same situation differently.

I'm not saying I think that's the case, just wondering what could be happening.


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Yeah to both of those. I've been worrying about this child, too. And didn't they tell you before they had no problems with her at home? And now it comes out that they do have a hard time with her?

I seem to remember that from another post too.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
What would happen if you called CPS without giving any personal info? Start documenting the things that happen that YOU can observe, not what they have told you. Kind of like a nurse triage . . .you call them and let the pros tell you if it is considered neglect or not.

Are you a mandated reporter as a daycare provider?

This family is SO lucky to have you, even if they don't realize it now.

I did call CPS in the beginning. The told me that there were no laws against being filthy. I haven't seen their house though, so I don't know if they live in filth or not. I just know the kids are filthy.

I have pretty much decided to wait til after the Holidays (I wont have them over Christmas at all) and then have a talk with Mom. I think Mom would be more receptive than Dad. (Dad doesn't seem to care)

It's Mom who is telling me little bits and peices of things from home. So, I kinda think she is looking for advice, help, symathy. I can't tell.

I am hesitant, because I had a boy that was with me for six years. In six years, I was convinced something was wrong with him. I had his parents take him in for an evaluation. But, nothing was coming up. I couldn't understand why they couldn't see it. It was extremely obvious. NOW, he is in first grade, and has blossomed! He is the perfect student, with friends, and the teachers think he is wonderful. So, I was TOTALLY wrong.

Then 20 years ago, I had another boy that I thought was a total whimpy whiner. He whined and cried about everything. I decided that his Mother was the reason he was so sensitive. Boys teased him in school, girls liked him, he wouldn't try new things. I still thought, "Oh my gosh, she sure raised a whiner". I saw him a few years ago, he is a well respected artist, he is gay, he loves theater, and is seen in lots of local plays. So, she wasn't raising a whiner, HE is just a Gay artsy, theatrical person. I was TOTALLY wrong again.

So, I am leery.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
So, I am leery.

I don't think you are wrong in this case . . .SOMETHING is up.


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## mamamoo (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
This is what they do. From her description. When I first met them, they told me she isn't a big eater. Mom was here the first day at lunch time, and she said "I can't beleive how much she is eating, she never eats this much at home". I didn't pay much attention, because I was trying to get her to stay at the table, because she was shoveling raviolis in her mouth and running through the house. She was also shoving everybody elses raviolis in her mouth as she ran by. Mom seemed genuinely surprised at how much she ate. I was genuinely surprised at her table manners. LOL. So, my ONLY concern was to teach her to eat ONLY off of her plate. (she does) And to sit at the table, or at least stand in front of the table (she does) and to use a spoon and fork (not there yet)

What I do know, is they do NOT fix them any breakfast. Nothing to drink, or eat in the mornings, they just bring them to me. SO, she is truly hungry when she gets here. But, I am not exaggerating when I say she can eat six eggos in one sitting, and still want more. At first I was buying them organic food, but it was costing me more than they were paying (slight exaggeration) and now they eat what the others eat. I offered mom the choice of bringing organic food, but she chose to let them eat what the others are eating.

I would not drop them over this. I doubt the parents would pull them out over this. I have had other kids with little quirks that drive me batty. But, looking back, it was never a "bad" thing. Just a temporary annoyance. I adore these kids, and I want to make things easier on her. I SOOOOO want her to "fit in". She watches the other kids play, and she tries to do what they do, but she just can't quite fit in yet. PArt of that is because she doesn't have conversational speech.

I'm thinking if it were WP you wouldn't be able to convince her not to eat off otehr plates and stuff...I don't think it is something that can be controlled.







I'n not 100% postitve, but I researched WP a little because my son has/had some of the same symptoms you have described(minue the delays).
I'll post more later, have to take the kids to school.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zonie* 
It sounds like she has developmental issues that have nothing to do with you. Other than the fact that the parents are ignoring these issues, they probably don't have much to do with the parents either. Developmental problems sometimes just happen. Especially since her baby brother has no delays.

I get the same feeling.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
The problem is, I can't put my finger on what is wrong. They are never clean. They come in with a weekend's worth of dried snot streaked across each side of their faces.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Qestia* 
Wow, you know, there is a such a thing as bad parents, and I would lump people who don't even wash their children into that category. Obviously you know them and I do not... but this sounds like neglect. As in CPS needs to be involved neglect. And I do not say that lightly. But from my readings here CPS doesn't automatically take kids away -- they can offer parenting classes, put the family in touch with resources that can help them, things like that. It sounds like a very sad situation.

Are you sure it's a whole weekend's worth of snot, and not just one night's worth? Things can be incredibly hectic on Monday mornings- getting ready for work and the kids up and ready for daycare and out the door so nobody's late for work, and there just might not be time for breakfast or washing everybody's faces. I mean, I think it's pretty much established that they have breakfast at daycare every day, not at home. That's not a cause for concern. Some kids aren't even hungry when they first wake up.

I haven't read enough to say that this is a CPS neglect issue. I see busy parents who don't have time to do everything before rushing out the door to drop the kids off at a loving childcare center where the parents know the children's needs will be met. I would NOT call CPS over early-morning hygiene.

However, their refusal to get their DD evaluated does concern me. Would CPS get involved with that?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I get the same feeling.

? Things can be incredibly hectic on Monday mornings- getting ready for work and the kids up and ready for daycare and out the door so nobody's late for work, and there just might not be time for breakfast or washing everybody's faces.

To a point, sure. But, the parent rushes in, all hurried, and says "I'm sorry he's so messy, it's been a wild morning". And I say, "No biggie, I will clean him up."

But, to NEVER have time to wash your child's face in the morning, or to NEVER brush their hair?? That is not just "rushed", that is either lazy, or they are so used to sloppiness, that they don't even see the crusty face. There is busy, and there is lazy.

I don't think they are abused. They are genuinely thrilled and giddy when Mommy comes. I think there is some neglect. But, I am not convinced they would be better off with CPS involved.

I am actually nosey enough to want to go to their house and see how they live. LOL.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
But, to NEVER have time to wash your child's face in the morning, or to NEVER brush their hair?? That is not just "rushed", that is either lazy, or they are so used to sloppiness, that they don't even see the crusty face. There is busy, and there is lazy.

Is there a chance of mental illness among the parents? The not cooking, not cleaning are red flags for mental illness (at least the kids - I'm nosey enough to want YOU to go check out where they live and I've never even MET these people







).

You're kind of between a rock and a hard place -- on the one hand, something is clearly 'up' with this family, and espeically this little girl. On the other, there's nothing definitively 'wrong'. Whether it's enough to warrant CPS is something that you're in a much better position than us to decide. From your description, it sounds like this family needs help. Talking to mom after the holidays sounds like a good place to start.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Are you sure it's a whole weekend's worth of snot, and not just one night's worth? Things can be incredibly hectic on Monday mornings- getting ready for work and the kids up and ready for daycare and out the door so nobody's late for work, and there just might not be time for breakfast or washing everybody's faces. I mean, I think it's pretty much established that they have breakfast at daycare every day, not at home. That's not a cause for concern. Some kids aren't even hungry when they first wake up.

I haven't read enough to say that this is a CPS neglect issue. I see busy parents who don't have time to do everything before rushing out the door to drop the kids off at a loving childcare center where the parents know the children's needs will be met. I would NOT call CPS over early-morning hygiene.

However, their refusal to get their DD evaluated does concern me. Would CPS get involved with that?

Well, in a previous thread, Kim talked about how she had marked the diapers, and they hadn't been changed overnight. Are they're nights so hectic, too?


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Well, in a previous thread, Kim talked about how she had marked the diapers, and they hadn't been changed overnight. Are they're nights so hectic, too?

IMO, I don't care how late you're running, that first morning diaper HAS to be changed.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I'm locking this to new posts for review. Thanks for your help and understanding. Please PM me with any questions.

~Heartmama


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