# Abortion in USA



## colaga (Nov 7, 2003)

Hi, I am looking for info on how late in pregnancy are abortions performed in USA. Can anyone help, please?

Does anyone have any info (as comparison) about any other countries? In what countries are late term abortions performed?

TIA!


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## Nabbe (Sep 27, 2004)

I dont know if it is interessting to you, but i could bring you the statistics and laws from Norway to compare if you like?


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## colaga (Nov 7, 2003)

Thank you, might you have info on how late in the pregnancy are abortions legal there, and how many late abortions are performed annually (approximately)?

Can anyone tell me, are partial birth abortions still legal in US?


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

There is no such thing as a "partial birth abortion".


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## cloak (Aug 27, 2004)

You can find a lot of the statistics at this site.
http://www.agi-usa.org/sections/abortion.html

I did some of the work for you. Assuming there are 1.4 million abortions per year (data taken from 1999).

>9 weeks 806,4000
9-10 wks 284,200
11-12 wks 142,800
13-15 wks 86,800
16-20 wks 60,200
21+ wks 21,000

They also estimated abortions when the baby is considered viable to be 1120. (edited to correct math error)

So you can add up the numbers for whatever you consider to be late-term.

I did see some stats on other countries but I'm not sure if you'll find the same type of data there or not.


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## cloak (Aug 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the sunshine*
There is no such thing as a "partial birth abortion".

You say "potato" and I'll say "dilation and extraction where they take the baby out of the uterus leaving only the head inside and pierce the base of it skull and sucks its brain out."

Yes, colaga, parital-birth abortions are still legal.


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## mum2sarah (Apr 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the sunshine*
There is no such thing as a "partial birth abortion".


I agree with cloak, this should not be stated as fact but as opinion, IMO


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

A gentle reminder that we have only just started allowing this topic to be discussed again. This isn't an easy one, so take several calming breaths before posting.

Thanks.


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## Nabbe (Sep 27, 2004)

In Norway, abortions until 12th week are legal, free, and no questions asked, more or less. Then after that, until the end of week 18, it is possible to get an abortion on physical (either for mother or baby) or psycological reasons. Like lets say the standard u/s in week 17 or around there, shows that there is something wrong with the baby, then you can have an abortion if you want, but you must discuss it with two doctors first, and explain why you want it. 9 out of 10 cases in this "abortion board" will get an abortion.

After week 18, what is done is that they start the birth with medication, if it is neccesary to save the mother. But cases like pre-eclampsia is NO reason over here for abortion! Then it must be very severe.

We had 13.888 abortions in Norway in 2003. Of them, 504 were in the Abortion Board (wich means after week 12) and the rest, 13.378 were outside of the board. It was 130 abortions between week 18 and 24, wich most of them for health reasons, like babies that cant survive outside womb or mothers health threatened. They are not "extracted and dialated", or partial births, they are started as normal births, and mother has to give birth naturally or by c-sect, what ever she chooses.

That was brief about Norway. I found this numbers on a site, weeks to the left, and number of abortions to the right... http://www.ssb.no/abort/tab-2004-07-14-07.html


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## mum2sarah (Apr 23, 2003)

The Norwegian system sounds quite reasonable to me. I am a very liberal person (very anti-Bush, in favor of gay rights, pro-environment, pro-peace, etc.), but even most of the liberal people I know do not find late-term abortions very humane. I, personally, find it apalling when I think about how my dh was born prematurely and we can talk here on MDC in great detail, and most everyone would agree that it was sad and painful for him to endure the circumcision that was performed on him, as was nearly routing in the 1970's. But another *VIABLE* premature baby (fetus, if you prefer),like 11,200 per year in the USA, can endure the pain of having his brains removed, and that's o.k. to be legal?! I have trouble following that line of reasoning. I believe that a lot of what happened in the 1970's was a knee-jerk reaction, a pendulum swinging, and not necessarily where we should stay long-term. I feel we went too far the opposite direction in many areas. Here are some examples: circumscisions being routine, vaccinations becoming routine, mom's wanting to be free to work therefore abandoning breastfeeding because the bottle was their ticket to freedom, scorning SAHM's because they weren't joining the workforce. Late-term abortions, I feel, fall into this category as well.

However, I acknowledge that this is my opinion, and thank you abimommy for our "gentle reminder." This is definitely a very controversial issue, which is why I think it is important to state your opinion respectfully and refrain from acting as though your opinion were a fact....


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by the sunshine
There is no such thing as a "partial birth abortion".

I agree with cloak, this should not be stated as fact but as opinion, IMO
What is being stated as *fact* is that there is no medical proceedure called PBA. That is a term invented by pro-life advocates. I'm not sure how that is an opinion


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Colaga---

Do you mind explaining why you want to know?

TIA,
Kay


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## cloak (Aug 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
What is being stated as *fact* is that there is no medical proceedure called PBA. That is a term invented by pro-life advocates. I'm not sure how that is an opinion









There isn't a medical procedure called a "boob job" either but everyone knows what you're talking about.

The term partial-birth abortion is slang, not an opinion.


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## mum2sarah (Apr 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
What is being stated as *fact* is that there is no medical proceedure called PBA. That is a term invented by pro-life advocates. I'm not sure how that is an opinion










Right, but what sunshine said was not "there is no medical procedure called partial birth abortion." She said, "there is no such thing as partial birth abortion." There is a huge difference in these statements. To use cloak's example, it's the difference between saying, "there's no medical procedure called a boob job" and "there's no such thing as a boob job." One is a fact, the other is not. Maybe "opinion" isn't the right word, either, but there's definitely an implication to the latter of the two statements. It's like saying, "since the medically accepted term is 'circumsicion' we can claim that we don't actually do 'foreskin amputation.' Besides, 'foreskin amputation was just a term invented by those crunchy APers." Whatever you call it, the "procedures" are one and the same.


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## colaga (Nov 7, 2003)

Thank you everybody for your replies!

Cloak, thank you for the site you gave, I remember looking through that site in the past and now I couldn't find it..

Nabbe, thank you for the stats from Norway! It's intersting to learn how these things are dealth with in other countries.

TiredX2, I am simply interested in some statistics. That, and also I read someone saying that "abortions past 25 weeks gestation are not performed legally in any country" and just was wondering how accurate that statement truly was.

A while ago here was a story in the news - it was found out that a baby was aborted at 24 weeks because it had a cleft lip. So obviously it is possible to have a late abortion done (at least here, in UK) just for a social reason.
I am wondering what criteria one must meet to qualify for a partial birth abortion in US?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

http://www.geocities.com/ben_rafael2/abortion.htm

According to this site:

Quote:

Most western countries limit abortions to 24-week pregnancies, but Israel has no time limit on abortions.
I was confused exactly what type of evidence you were looking for--- on Intact D&X or on *any* late term abortions? What would you consider "late term"?


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

You can easily have an abortion through 24 weeks - gestation al age is diagnosed by ultrasound, not LMP. From 24-28 weeks it can be done, but it is hard to find, extremely expensive, and usually requires a diagnosed defect in the fetus. Speaking of cost, abortions get more and more expensive as the pregnancy progresses. A D&E at 22-24 weeks runs about USD$2000 in Florida.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

I would just like to (_calmly, peacefully and respectfully_) say that the MAJORITY of "PBA"s are done with a baby/fetus that has already died in utero or is not considered viable (able to live outside of the womb).

Also I'd like to clarify that there is not a line of 36week pregnant women waiting to have late-term or PBAs, nor is there a section in the yellow pages for doctors that can't wait to get their hands on these types of patients. I know of no doctors that are willing to do a procedure like this unless s/he truly views it to be in the best interest of the health of the mother (it's not like getting a note to miss a day of work, where a sympathetic doc will play-up your symptoms to give you a break). Any doctor like this is not following his basic Hipocratic Oath.

Lastly, when this procedure is done on a fetus that is not yet dead, most doctors will suggest administering pain meds, and I don't think any can refuse them if the mother requests them.

Kelly

PS-As for the OP wanting statistics, Google is great, dogpile is okay, and yahoo works well too.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
http://www.geocities.com/ben_rafael2/abortion.htm

According to this site: Most western countries limit abortions to 24-week pregnancies, but Israel has no time limit on abortions.

I was confused exactly what type of evidence you were looking for--- on Intact D&X or on *any* late term abortions? What would you consider "late term"?


For a more ... nuanced ... statement of Israeli policy on abortion, as per the United Nations.

TiredX2, am curious as to how your search or whatever on the subject brought you to this one link for this thread.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

And here is the entire United Nations document, with global statistics and summaries, on global abortion policies.

(from which I took my previous post's link)


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## colaga (Nov 7, 2003)

Thank you so much Merpk!


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

In the Netherlands, abortion is available until viability (currently 25 weeks, to be moved back to 23 weeks). It's free, but after 3 months needs to be done in a special clinic. Everybody gets counseling followed by a week "decision" time during which further counseling is available (except in cases of maternal health threats).

Due to excellent education and availability of bc, the abortion rate is one of the lowest in the world (and includes about 50% "import" abortions for foreign women from countries with stricter legislation). I don't know the stat, but I seem to remember that about 1 in 15 abortions is past 4 months.

We also distinguish abortion from "overtime treatment," a quick d&c procedure up till 4 weeks gestation.

hth


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## mum2sarah (Apr 23, 2003)

CookieMonsterMommy,
I would love to believe that late-term abortions are a decision not taken lightly and are a rarity; however, the statistics cloak presented don't seem to support that. Unless I am misunderstanding, she said that 11,200 abortions were performed in 1999 where the fetus/baby was considered *viable,* which by definition means able to survive outside the womb. If, as you have said, the majority of pba's are done when the fetus is already dead or not considered viable, does that mean that there are more than 11,200 pba's performed per year in which the fetus was already dead or not considered viable? Do you have a reference for this?







: Furthermore, even if this is true, I, personally, do not consider 11,200 to be an insignificant or rare thing, especially when compared with the Norwegian statisitics. JMO, of course...

(edited to fix stupid mathematical error







)


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## cloak (Aug 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
I would just like to (_calmly, peacefully and respectfully_) say that the MAJORITY of "PBA"s are done with a baby/fetus that has already died in utero or is not considered viable (able to live outside of the womb).

I'm not sure how that site took the stats they did but IMO, if the baby is already dead in-utero, then that's not an abortion at all and probably wasn't included as such in the statistics.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Cloak: I'm sorry that you are misinformed that a dead fetus would not be counted as a "PBA" in the stats. You see, firstly a PBA is not really an abortion in the medical sense of the word. It is a dilation and extraction (D&X). Even when the baby has died, the mother is still dilated, the baby is still extracted, therefore it most certainly does figure into the stats. It is billed to insurance and recorded in the records as a D&X, the procedure which right-to-lifers have falsely dubbed the PBA.

The figures are nowhere near 11,000. Most estimates bring that number to around 2,000-4,000. (Those inflated numbers were based solely on a NJ study-I believe it was found that one doctor had performed about 800 in that state alone, and it was determined that what he was doing was very much illegal and unethical-he had been lying to the women. Such is a doctor who was a rare exception and did not deserve to be walking the streets, let alone practicing medicine. On this one statistic, they determined the rate to be similar through out the nation, which was a very foolish assumption).

D&Xs have been calculated to account for between .24% (NOT 24%, just to clarify) and .8% (again, NOT 8%). Again, this IS including those performed when the fetus has already died or will die if born.

Also, the term "viable" is not always applied to a fetus that can live outside of the womb. I have heard embryos (at around 6 weeks gestation) being described as "viable". What is meant by this is that they are at present thriving and will continue to thrive if left alone, so to speak (or not aborted). This, by no means, is to say that an embryo at 6 weeks gestation is viable outside of the womans uterus.

Please feel free to view the links below. If you visit RTL websites, I am sure that you will find stats like those derived fom the NJ "study". Please try to check into that (most sites will even claim something like "In NJ alone, over 1,000 PBAs were done, mostly to viable, healthy babies", which again was based mostly on this one sick, criminal doctor).







That would be like me taking once pro-life protester's act of violence and saying "Two doctors were killed in ____ state in one year, so Pro-Lifers kill about 100 doctors per year" This would simply be untrue, as this was/is not the norm.

I have to question as to why the OP asked this in Activism. I know this is a heated subject and not fit anywhere else. But she was not asking for opinions, recomendations, etc. Just stats. Why not just google it and do the research?









I have assisted in a D&X. It is not an easy choice for anyone, mother, doctor, family. Unfortunately though, it is sometimes better than the alternative.

Kelly

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pba1.htm (I have found this one to be very accurate and truthful--please see the most common reasons listed for D&Xs)

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3500603.html (quotes PBAs as being less than 0.17% of all abortions provided)

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html (this one has a pie chart and clearly laid out stats-should be helpful, if that's what you're looking for)


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## cloak (Aug 27, 2004)

First of all, you are right cookiemonstermommy, I screwed up my math and the numbers that site gave should have been an estimated 1120 "viable" abortions and not 11,200. They gave the percentage to be 0.08%. Sorry about that. It was an honest mistake.

Secondly, according to the dictionary definition of abortion, miscarriages would also be abortions and that site was specifically refering to abortions and miscarriages as two separate entities. I know that they do do dilation and extraction for both miscarriages and abortions and since the site was separating them, I don't think it was included in the 1120. You might even agree with me now that I have my numbers right.









Oh yeah...and they were also refering to the "viable" in their estimate as those babies that would have survived outside the uterus at their present age. I really don't think they would have included already dead babies in those numbers.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cloak*
Secondly, according to the dictionary definition of abortion, miscarriages would also be abortions and that site was specifically refering to abortions and miscarriages as two separate entities. I know that they do do dilation and extraction for both miscarriages and abortions and since the site was separating them, I don't think it was included in the 1120. You might even agree with me now that I have my numbers right.









lol, sorry, but I don't agree with you.







I'm sure that YOU do not consider D&Xs performed on dead fetuses to be abortions, but I'm talking about statistics. When people and websites quote X amount of D&Xs, that most certainly does include those D&Xs that many people would not count unless this is clearly defined, which usually it is not. (The main reason for this is to tug the heart strings, however inaccurate. it sounds much worse to say that all these D&Xs done were on living, viable babies, and that's what gets attention, that's what they hope will change minds)

And no D&X is performed on a miscarriage. You may be thinking of a D&C, which is an entirely different procedure. Unless you're thinking of a stillbirth? And as I said, those DO figure into the numbers.

I do thank you for correcting yourself. I respect that very much.

Kelly


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## cloak (Aug 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
And no D&X is performed on a miscarriage. You may be thinking of a D&C, which is an entirely different procedure. Unless you're thinking of a stillbirth? And as I said, those DO figure into the numbers.

I guess I was thinking of a D&C. We also might have cross-posted my edit since the 1120 was an estimate for viable babies and not just a D&X number alone. I'm guessing the D&X number would be closer to the 21,000, 21+ weeks number (for that study 1.5%, I know your numbers were different) and that may very well include babies that died in-utero.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

T

Merpk---

Quote:

TiredX2, am curious as to how your search or whatever on the subject brought you to this one link for this thread.
Hmmm, well the OP was trying to compare UK & US policy. I generally do searches on Yahoo or Google (Yahoo actually uses Google's search engine, but that is another matter, lol). I don't remember what phrase exactly brought that link up. Used: average; PBA; late term; abortion; rates; viable; etc... and just ran a few searches. It was on the first page of one of those









Kay


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