# Spirited Kids Tribe



## PapayaVagina (May 11, 2002)

I think the only other spirited kids tribe was archived (please point me in the right direction if I'm wrong). Just wanted to get another started. I'm currently reading Raising Your Spirited Child. My dd is only 22 months old but it was apparent from pretty early on that she was most definitely a spirited little one (even had a very spirited birth to say the least).


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Hi there! In the interest of limiting FYT to subjects not hosted elsewhere on the board, we have moved your tribe here. You're still a tribe, which means you're still support-only. If you have any questions about the move, please do not discuss it on the boards. Rather, contact an administrator or start a thread in Questions and Suggestions. Thanks, and happy posting!


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

My 29 mo old is definitely a spirited little boy! Somedays he is really challenging for me but most days he is a delight to be around.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Yes, my daughter is spirited. I've already heard from her teacher this year. "She's quite . . . active, isn't she?" Yes, yes, she is. Dh and I have already decided if she has trouble in school due to her spirited issues (she calls it her "wildness" - she likes the idea of being wild for some reason, though I'm not sure where she heard that) we'll just homeschool her. I love her as she is.


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

I am so happy this tribe was started! Our 4yo daughter is as spirited as they come! She can be a handful but has such a wonderful view of the world around her that I would not change her for the world (at least that is how I feel 98% of the time, the other 2% I ask why did I not get one of those "quiet" models?)


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## Phoenix_Rising (Jun 27, 2005)

DS will be three in November and is most definitely spirited


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

raising my second spirited child here!!!

my first was 11 before i had my second.......


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

I have a very spirited almost 5 year old.

My Mom says she is exactly like me.

Now that I have another child to compare mothering to, I have been able to reflect back and see just how spirited DD is.

She was 3 weeks overdue and 3 days of labor! She wasn't coming out till she was good and ready.

We were so intensely bonded that she literally felt like the same person for a few months after she was born.

She needs a lot of physical contact. She's still nursing.

She is LOUD!

She is bouncy.

She needs lots of help with transitions (but getting much better about it).

She is persistent. I can tell when her mind is made up about something and nothing is going to change it. The best thing to do is to help her meet the need. Many others (including my in-laws) are a bit judgmental about this.

I fear DH does not understand her at all.

I am completely enjoying my "Mr. Mellow" DS. He is the perfect little brother for my DD. They are yin and yang. She loves him fiercely and he just adores her.


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## lactivist (Jun 14, 2005)

I have four kids.

First was definitely a spirited child. She is now a pregnant 16 yo, no telling her anything about anything.

Second seriously shy to the point of intense panic if people tried to engage him. I let him take his time he isn't even really shy anymore at 10yo. I don't consider him spirited. 10yo now

Third oh boy was I in for it. I thought I knew spirited with my first! This guy takes me to the limit and beyond. I adore him and he is amazing but it is a serious challenge to parent him. I have homeschooled all the others but he attends Montessori and it is works great for both of us. 3yo

Fourth she is as sweet as pie but I see a stubborn streak. I don't think she will be particularly spirited just a bit fiesty at times. a year on saturday.

I need all the support I can get for my 3yo (3rd child) I am glad to have found this tribe before it is too overwhelming to keep up with.
Not only is he spirited but he also has sensory issues which make it that much harder to interact with him. I do everything I can to accomodate him and make sure his needs get met. I find it very tiring to say the least and I also really find it difficult to take him in public very often. He needs controlled settings. Between him and my baby who screams in the car it has been a long year at home.

I look forward to sharing support with you all!

Wendi


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lactivist* 
I have four kids.

First was definitely a spirited child. She is now a pregnant 16 yo, no telling her anything about anything.

Second seriously shy to the point of intense panic if people tried to engage him. I let him take his time he isn't even really shy anymore at 10yo. I don't consider him spirited. 10yo now

Third oh boy was I in for it. I thought I knew spirited with my first! This guy takes me to the limit and beyond. I adore him and he is amazing but it is a serious challenge to parent him. I have homeschooled all the others but he attends Montessori and it is works great for both of us. 3yo

Fourth she is as sweet as pie but I see a stubborn streak. I don't think she will be particularly spirited just a bit fiesty at times. a year on saturday.

I need all the support I can get for my 3yo (3rd child) I am glad to have found this tribe before it is too overwhelming to keep up with.
Not only is he spirited but he also has sensory issues which make it that much harder to interact with him. I do everything I can to accomodate him and make sure his needs get met. I find it very tiring to say the least and I also really find it difficult to take him in public very often. He needs controlled settings. Between him and my baby who screams in the car it has been a long year at home.

I look forward to sharing support with you all!

Wendi


THis is so my life....my first was spirited, he's 16 now and I cant even tell him the sky is blue!! My second is five now and she was also shy to the point of panic. On her second birthday, she hid from the guests (all close family that she knew and loved...individually, the group was too much). My third is now three and likewise, he seems waay more intense than his brother, though his brother was very spirited. And my baby is 16mos and I see signs......Im really in for it! I cant put my 16mo old down at all. We call him "velcro" around here.


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## lactivist (Jun 14, 2005)

You are in for it. I got so lucky with my fourth. she is really easy going and other than her temper seems to be really laid back. I am not sure I could take another one honestly. We are completely done now!
Wendi


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## PapayaVagina (May 11, 2002)

So I have an embarrassing confession to make...I dread going out into public with my dd and I very rarely do







. I get so nervous just not knowing what exactly will happen. If dh is with us things go much, much better but dealing with her by myself is just completely exhausting most of the time. I have some mild-moderate social phobia as well so that doesn't help the situation either.

I was really pleased though today when we went on an outing. Really reminds me that I need to get the heck outta the house. We had to drive an hour north to go to a meeting. She was great during the meeting except towards the end when she freaked out over wanting another little girl's shoes and starting fighting. We quickly headed to the car with me holding her and her thrashing, kicking and screaming the whole way. We got into the car, had a snack, got distracted and so I put her into her car seat, which went ok (meaning I didn't have to physically restrain her very much while putting her in there - sometimes it takes all of my strength to get her in all of the way) and headed to the grocery store. She was great in the store and actually would let me put her in the cart (which she rarely does), I got what I needed quickly while she snacked on some things that I packed and then went into her car seat very easily (lured by another snack) and was fine during the hour-long drive home. Whew!

I still am really anxious though when it comes to trying to plan being out with her. Does anyone have any tips?


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## PapayaVagina (May 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
raising my second spirited child here!!!

my first was 11 before i had my second.......

some days i think that might be us. i am really scared of having to anymore responsibility than her and am especially scared that we might have another spirited little one. if it wasn't for the fact that i had a craptastic birth and want to get pregnant again we might never have anymore kids.


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PapayaVagina* 
some days i think that might be us. i am really scared of having to anymore responsibility than her and am especially scared that we might have another spirited little one. if it wasn't for the fact that i had a craptastic birth and want to get pregnant again we might never have anymore kids.

I have two 9 and 6months. Yes, it is clear that my 6 month old is very spirited. We had planned on more kids but I'm kinda scared myself. I don't know if I could do this again...

That is the first time I've said that outloud.


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## Phoenix_Rising (Jun 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PapayaVagina* 
So I have an embarrassing confession to make...I dread going out into public with my dd and I very rarely do







. I get so nervous just not knowing what exactly will happen. If dh is with us things go much, much better but dealing with her by myself is just completely exhausting most of the time. I have some mild-moderate social phobia as well so that doesn't help the situation either.

I was really pleased though today when we went on an outing. Really reminds me that I need to get the heck outta the house. We had to drive an hour north to go to a meeting. She was great during the meeting except towards the end when she freaked out over wanting another little girl's shoes and starting fighting. We quickly headed to the car with me holding her and her thrashing, kicking and screaming the whole way. We got into the car, had a snack, got distracted and so I put her into her car seat, which went ok (meaning I didn't have to physically restrain her very much while putting her in there - sometimes it takes all of my strength to get her in all of the way) and headed to the grocery store. She was great in the store and actually would let me put her in the cart (which she rarely does), I got what I needed quickly while she snacked on some things that I packed and then went into her car seat very easily (lured by another snack) and was fine during the hour-long drive home. Whew!

I still am really anxious though when it comes to trying to plan being out with her. Does anyone have any tips?

I rarely take Keagan somewhere by myself if I know we will be inside and there will be other kids. Allison gets mad at me because she feels like I am setting him up for failure. *I* feel like I am potentially setting him up for failure if I put him in a situation like this. He just can get aggressive with no warning (as you have seen). It is getting better but I still have anxiety about it. And yeah, I've also got that social anxiety that you were talking about. It doesn't help matters any, does it?
What seems to help most with Keagan is staying away from indoor gatherings where there will be a lot of people, especially a lot of other kids. The one exception to this is that he does well at indoor part















Other things that help are making sure that we have enough food on hand that he can eat (we are GF right now) and leaving the situation _right away_ when he starts having a hard time. It doesn't have to be a long time - sometimes all it takes is going to a different room and offering mommy milks. Other times he needs to leave all together. Most of the time when that happens it involves a long crying session because he didn't feel ready to leave. It can be really hard to put into perspective what is worse - the insult to him in leaving when he doesn't feel ready or my frustrations in constantly being right at his side reminding him what is okay and what is not (ie hitting, etc).
Okay, so sorry for the novel here but I just wanted to say that I really do feel like I understand what you are talking about here.


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## amynbebes (Aug 28, 2008)

Hello







Mama of 5 here with 2 spirited kids and one yet to be deterimed as he's only 7 weeks old.
My 2 high maintenance babes are my 11 yr old and his mini-me my 5 yr old. While my 11 yr old has mellowed out quite a bit he definitely still has his moments. And this is sad, but in a warped way I was so glad my 5 yr old started school this year because that meant less battles with him on a daily basis. If possible he is definitely more difficult than my older one. It's a constant power struggle with him. He can be such an absolute sweetie, cuddle bug one minute and heck on wheels the next.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Dont feel bad about not wanting to go anywhere! When my oldest was three, I barely left the house for a year because I didnt want to inflict him on others. Once, when he was about five, he was seriously acting up in a restaraunt and I wanted to take him into the restroom just so I could talk to him in private and with his full attention. Understand that he was NEVER spanked or hit in anyway......he is FINE until we pass a table full of people and the manager....when he suddenly drops to the floor so now rather than holding his hand Im DRAGGING him and he begins to wail at the top of his lungs, "NO, please dont hit me!!" I was Mortified!! Yipes!

My three year old is getting better but for awhile I couldnt take him anywhere because of his unprovoked attacks on other children. Now he just wails if anyone else so much as bumps into him. Sigh.


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## Phoenix_Rising (Jun 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
My three year old is getting better but for awhile I couldnt take him anywhere because of his unprovoked attacks on other children.

Yes, this is exactly what has been going on with my almost three year old. He is getting much better with not hurting other kids, but he still does it. And he still hits/hurts us. This is what I have the hardest part with in public - the judgment from adults when he does hit someone (whether it is me or another child).


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## kerc (May 9, 2002)

I have been reading along and laughing out loud. Literally. I have an intensely spirited 5.5 yr old, a mellow as they come 3 year old and a husband who is equally matched to my 5.5 year old.

Why does everything and I do mean everything have to be so hard? Bedtime - either we don't do anything from about 3 pm until bedtime at 730 or we fight tooth and nail. I loose it occasionally, and then it is 1000 times worse.

I sometimes fear that my child #2 is getting the short end of the stick because we spend.so.much.time and effort with #1.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

My mom thinks my three year old acts out because he doesnt get enough attention as he isnt the oldest or the youngest or the only girl.... but i dont think thats it.

When he is allwound up,he cant hear us, I mean, he may hear sounds coming out of our mouths, but you knowwhat I mean!


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## jools (Oct 25, 2003)

My six-year-old is Spirited and I'm not completely sure about his 3-year-old brother, mainly because....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kerc* 
I sometimes fear that my child #2 is getting the short end of the stick because we spend.so.much.time and effort with #1.

I've been fortunate to have a playgroup since DS #1's birth filled with women who in addition to knowing him his whole life, also understand my challenges with him and are forgiving of any incidents that are ugly. However, now that they are in 1st grade and only two of the 6 of us are homeschooling, we don't get together much anymore and I'm desperately seeking parents of other spirited kids for my own friendship as well as for DS.

Most days I feel like we've finally reached a place where we (DH and I) can honor DS's nature and temperament and things are smooth and fun and happy, but then we'll have an AWFUL day where I lose it and say crappy things and I wonder how in the hell I'll survive motherhood and how he'll possibly turn out okay having ME as his parent. I'm not so good with the self-care and getting myself a break, obviously, and when I do get a clue and do those things it certainly makes it easier around here.

Thank you for starting this; I look forward to hearing more from the rest of you.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

I think my dd1 may be a spirited child but am not sure....are there any signs I can look for or book you could recommend? If she is spirited, I would like to know how to raise her properly without destroying her spirit kwim?
Thanks


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## ncas72 (Sep 7, 2006)

My 2 year old DS is definitely spirited. High energy, loud, extremely needy, very sensitive.

Shopping is hard for us too. DS has left sour cream, orange juice, you name it strewn across the grocery store floor. I have to pack my shopping cart so that nothing is within reach because he finds it amusing to throw things. But of course, this is if he is willing to calmly sit in the cart. Normally, he is not and there is no strap or childproofing that has been made to hold my little Houdini. He has skydived from a grocery cart twice. The first time a stranger caught him and the second time, I caught him. Now, I try to only shop with DH or leave DS home with DH while I shop. If I have to go to the store with DS alone, I try to keep it as short as possible and bring lots of snacks.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

S&E, we should start a local spirited kids' playgroup! That way when one of them acts in that manner the other moms will be only sympathetic.

Grey is definitely spirited. He has a strong will and is so determined. He cannot be swayed or distracted!
I love this when it comes to trying new things or figuring something out but when his will begins to clash with mine it can be so irritating and occasionally infuriating.

Things that help him are making sure he gets at least a good hour of physical activity in the morning before we go anywhere, feeding him before we go anywhere and bringing a snack, and making sure he's well rested.

I also try to help him redirect his aggressiveness into other things like giving mommy a high five instead of pile driving his sister.

I will come back and add more thoughts later but I really should be in bed now! I have a big day tomorrow.


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## kerc (May 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veronicalynne* 
I think my dd1 may be a spirited child but am not sure....are there any signs I can look for or book you could recommend? If she is spirited, I would like to know how to raise her properly without destroying her spirit kwim?
Thanks


book

Reading the book Raising your spirited child changed my life.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Oh mine definitely., It's downright embarrassing taking him anywhere. He fixates on stuff and when he doesn't get his way.... look out. Most of the people that I know call him spoiled when the fact is he's anything but. They don't seem to understand why let him "get his way" Like he won't sit in the shopping cart at the store, he usually insists on walking but one day he wanted me to carry him. Well here I am pushing a cart with one hand and have a toddler over my shoulder with the other. They say "I would have made him walk" Umm, what am I suppose to do? Have him stand there and scream at the top of his lungs for an hour? Because that is precisely what he would have done. I'm hoping that when he's older he'll calm down and that a lot of this is just your typical 3 yeasr old behavior. I remember DS1 was pretty hard at 3 but never this hard.


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## Phoenix_Rising (Jun 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Megan~* 
S&E, we should start a local spirited kids' playgroup! That way when one of them acts in that manner the other moms will be only sympathetic.

I think I would still have a hard time with it








: but I'd be willing to give it a try. Allison is much more willing than I am, which is funny considering her social anxiety is much more intense than mine.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kerc* 

book

Reading the book Raising your spirited child changed my life.

Thank you







I will look for it today


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kerc* 

book

Reading the book Raising your spirited child changed my life.

ABsolutely!!!! Totally agree with this. I don't know how things would have gone if I hadn't found this book.

My spirited one is now 13. I didn't understand he was different until I had a second child. Then thought 'hey wait a minute, this child is just like the books say she should be, so what does that mean about my firstborn?' He was 3 then. Finding that book was a godsend.

My 3rd is a mixture--kind of feisty but not spirited.

Have much to share but need to go!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

When my oldest was two, I found the book Raising Your Spirited Child and was sure she'd written it about him. While he has calmed down since then, he is definately still a spirited guy.


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## peanutbuttercup (Aug 9, 2008)

I am pretty sure I have a spirited 16 month old, and hope you all can help me figure out if that is the case. She is so loving...hugs and kisses all day..but these are in between the tantrums and the frustrations. I am not sure how to make her happy. What works one day doesn't work the next. She won't sit in a shopping cart. She wants to be held. This week (meaning it changes every week) if she does sit in the cart she wants everything that is shaped like a ball (a pumpkin, a squash, a tomato) in the cart beside her. And she always wants a pretzel...ALWAYS. I have stayed home for weeks at a time because I don't know how she will act in public. She has tantrums where I can't touch her because it only makes it worse. So we sit together on the floor of whatever store while she cries, and I watch her and try to soothe her with my voice. People look at me like I'm crazy.
In my small town everyone knows Ruby. They say she has a huge personality. I am so in love with her, but so frustrated because I feel I just can't get it right, like I am a terrible mother. Getting her to sleep is incredibly difficult. It can take me up to two hours to get her to bed at night. And once she's down, she wakes up every 1-2 hours for constant nursing. I am exhausted. I am confused. I am exasperated. Naps can be even worse. She needs lots of nursing...So much that I am having trouble enjoying it, or seeing it as a beneficial bonding experience. When we are out with other toddlers she can nurse up to 8 times in 30 minutes, and all the other nursing toddlers don't even think about it. She has just started grabbing my legs and staring up at me and crying, so I can't walk and can't move. 100% of my attention must be focused on her at all times. I want to help her, but I have no idea how to get past all of this.
When my DH is around things are better. But he works an average of 90 hours a week so I feel as if I don't ever get a break. He is exhausted whenever he is here, and I need his help so badly.
Please don't think I am as evil as I sound...I am just having an incredibly hard time doing this all on my own. We have no family here and this doesn't seem to be getting any easier. I feel I need specific suggestions...What will help my girl? Do I need to get her in her own bed? Do I need to cut back on bfing, or just allow it to resume even though some days she is nursing as much as a newborn?? I can't put her down, and she won't allow anyone else to pick her up, only DH, who like I said, is never here. Where do I start? What will make her more comfortable here on earth? The only thing I have found thus far is a boob and some music. And sometimes her dad.
I need help. Any and all suggestions are welcome. I have always wanted three children...I don't want to stop at one just because we are going through this struggle.
Thank you for reading this far. It feels so good to vent







.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

peanutbuttercup my heart goes out to you. I can remember when my son was exactly 16 months--that is when I started to really wonder what was up with him. He would obsess about things like helium balloons and balls too. He was obsessed by things that were round. Once we had to leave a restaurant because they had helium balloons tied to the chairs and he was over the top trying to catch them, get close to them, push them away. Poor little guy finally melted down in a spillover tantrum. Also ceiling fans. Loved to stare at them.

He would have an hour long tantrum if his banana broke.

He nursed constantly for the first year. Still a lot the second year. Eventually we gently night weaned him and that helped some (around 26 months). He had night terrors from age one to three.

I was so relieved when I learned about temperament and figured out there were things I could do to help him.

I have an informal question I ask parents of spirited children--when your baby was first born, did s/he have that 'ancient'/wise look, an intensity, like a little sage or buddha was living in your baby? Almost every spirited child I've ever known had that look at birth and now I can pick them out just after birth; most often I'm right.

If I had it to do over and I knew then what I knew now, I would have had him evaluated by and early childhood program and an occupational therapist for sensory integration problems. I think many spirited child challenges are related to sensory integration. But temperament on its own is plenty to learn about.

I found an interesting resource that may be helpful to some.

http://www.preventiveoz.org/image.html

At this site you can fill in a questionnaire about your child and get a 'profile'. In the beginning you can fudge the 'personal' information and choose option 3 "other health care provider". I just did it for my 3rd child (who I'm still trying to figure out) and it was definitely on target. After you get a profile you can click on links to get ideas for handling things. Not sure if all the ideas are cool (didn't check them all).

Anyway, glad you joined this tribe because I think you are on the right track.


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## peanutbuttercup (Aug 9, 2008)

lauren (I am Lauren too!),
Thanks so much for responding. It feels so good to know that maybe there is an answer for all of this. I have already taken the questionnaire you linked me to, and found it very interesting. I can't wait to explore the site further...

As for Ruby being a sage or buddha baby...I have always thought of her as extremely wise, and as an "old soul." You can see in her big eyes that she has a connection to something most people do not. But I am afraid that it tortures her. I feel like she is not comfortable on earth. People have always been amazed by her understanding of language, and by her knowing of what is dangerous/what is not, what is right/what is wrong. I, too, am amazed by the fcat that she has always just KNOWN not to go too close to the edge of the bed, or not to go to close to the light socket. Anyway, I am rambling...

I think good words for her are strong-willed and uncomfortable. She throws tantrums, has trouble with separation and sleeping, is easily frustrated...Oh, I hope I can find a way to make things easier for her. And maybe for me too.

There is one thing I forgot to add...Ruby was born 6 weeks early with amniotic band syndrome. So she has one fully formed hand, and a little one that looks like fin. I have always felt, since the day I conceived her, that she would be different from other children. And, since her birth and the discovery that she is physically "different" from other children, I have also felt incredibly lucky that she chose me to be her mother. I want to continue to feel this way. And I know the only way to do that is to try to understand her better so she and I can peacefully work together...which is exactly what she and I were put on this earth to do.

I am such a rambler...so sorry. But like I said before, it feels so good to get this all out. I am crying.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lauren* 
I have an informal question I ask parents of spirited children--when your baby was first born, did s/he have that 'ancient'/wise look, an intensity, like a little sage or buddha was living in your baby? Almost every spirited child I've ever known had that look at birth and now I can pick them out just after birth; most often I'm right.

ok. My first child, at about two days, looked at me and did a double take, I swear! THen he stared at me in shock with a look on his face that clearly said, "YOU??!!" like total recognition but yet surprise to find me there with him, and Iremember just being a bit shocked and confused myself then I said, "who are you?" and we stared at each other then the moment passed...... never told that to anyone, afraid they would think I was a nutjob!


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
ok. My first child, at about two days, looked at me and did a double take, I swear! THen he stared at me in shock with a look on his face that clearly said, "YOU??!!" like total recognition but yet surprise to find me there with him, and Iremember just being a bit shocked and confused myself then I said, "who are you?" and we stared at each other then the moment passed...... never told that to anyone, afraid they would think I was a nutjob!


That is soooo cool! I don't think you're a nutjob!!


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## peanutbuttercup (Aug 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
ok. My first child, at about two days, looked at me and did a double take, I swear! THen he stared at me in shock with a look on his face that clearly said, "YOU??!!" like total recognition but yet surprise to find me there with him, and Iremember just being a bit shocked and confused myself then I said, "who are you?" and we stared at each other then the moment passed...... never told that to anyone, afraid they would think I was a nutjob!

I have to agree with Lauren - sooooooooo cool!


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

hi there mamas! i need to join this tribe.

yesterday was my ds' 1st birthday. this past year has been one intense, passionate, butt kicking, fun and crazy year.

Tobias is just *more* than any child i have ever been around. i hate labels. i dislike the word "spirited". i don't know why but it bugs me. however, the descriptions that you all have written about your little ones describes my babe to a T.

my pregnancy- intense. nauseating and uncomfortable.
his birth- long and brutal. he was 10 days past due and did not want to come out. i labored for two days and then almost died from a hemmorage after giving birth.

his babyhood has been filled with laughter and tears. no in-betweens.

from the minute he came out he has wanted to see everything, touch everything, engage with everyone. and do exactly what he wants to do when he wants to do it.

he is definitely an "old soul" and not a mellow one. a really funny and fiery old soul. he is just so animated and engaging. when we're out in public people are compelled to stop and talk to him. all kinds of people are drawn into his orbit. it's crazy and scary at the same time.

i can soooo relate to this:

Quote:

In my small town everyone knows Ruby. They say she has a huge personality. I am so in love with her, but so frustrated because I feel I just can't get it right, like I am a terrible mother.

when it's just me and dh with him i'm totally fine. my husband has a ton of energy and though i'm a bit more on the shy side i have a pretty intense personality. i find Tobias' explorations and intensity amusing and fascinating and sometimes exhausting but we aren't surprised that he is the way he is. he couldn't really be anyone else. but when i'm out with him at the park or at work (he was coming to work with me for about an hour everyday over the last year) i become so aware of how different he is from other children and i feel like crying.

i don't want to change him. i love him the way he is but sometimes i have a hard time feeling the "eyes" on me. it comes from my own insecurity. my own lack of confidence as a first time mama. did i mess up by co-sleeping, nursing him down for every nap, not making him go to bed at a certain time and doing CIO, by letting him explore every nook and cranny of the house?

bottomline-if Toby doesn't want to do x, y, or z he ain't doing x, y, or z and boy will you know about it and he's only 1 so it blows people away!

i don't want my kid called a brat. i don't want to hear the tsk tsk of me not "controlling" him. i don't want to hear how so and so's kids are "good" because they are mellow and obedient and never cry or fuss in public with the implication that my child is well what "bad"? because he is not that way.
i know how other mothers talk. i hear it. it makes me want to crawl under a rock when Tobias is exerting his will in public places because i feel those same talkers watching watching.

i need to get over it, i know. and i will. *i'm still processing how to be with him myself without all that scrutiny!* so for those of you that cried as you wrote the descriptions of your little ones i'm right there with you. part of me is still mourning that idealized simple mellow little baby i thought i was going to have. ha! writing that last sentence was cathartic. i realize just how silly it sounds. of course this is how he was meant to be and who we were supposed to have in our life! why am i pining for a different experience when i need to accept and be with him as he is not as i wished him to be?
my husband says "f. em!" about the judgers,the talkers, the eyes. well yeah duh but, still, sometimes it gets to me.

thanks for listening!


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## peanutbuttercup (Aug 9, 2008)

*stickywicket* - Your story really hits home. Scarily, I can relate to every single thing you wrote.

Without quoting your entire post, let me write about what stuck out most in my mind...

My pregnancy, birth, and first year were anything but "normal." The first year, like Tobias's, and beyond have either laughter or tears - no in betweens. I feel like I have been scrutinized since day 1, mostly by my family and in-laws. Unfortunately my DH's brother had an "easy" baby (that's what everyone calls him) just 10 weeks after Ruby was born. So, she has always been compared to her cousin...therefore the moms are compared to each other as well...and it's just not a fair comparison...the kids are so different! And the difference between me and SIL is enormous. I mean that - we have nothing in common except that we both have a 1 year old.

Throughout Ruby's first year (and still) I doubted myself as a mother. I always thought I'd have the placid, "easy" kid...oops! I constantly wonder if co-sleeping, bfing to sleep, not CIO, have been the right decisions for us. We still do all of these things, and the latest is that it takes up to 2 HOURS to get her to bed at night, and sometimes 1 hour for nap. It is exhausting, and like I said in previous posts, DH works a ton (about 90 hours a week), so I feel like a single mama doing this all on my own. When DH IS here, however, it all seems that much easier.

Just like when your DH is around, sticky, it seems that much better. Ruby and my DH have a very different relationship than Ruby and I...not quite so intense. She seems to listen to him more, and I know how much she loves when he's around. I think it would help a lot if he could work less, but it's just not possible. So I will keep plugging along, with my amazing girl. I would never change her and can't imagine her any other way, I think I just need some advice on how to handle her a little bit better in both social situations and at home.

Like Tobias, she is unlike any other child I have ever met. People flock to her. They love to be in her orbit. And like you, I am sure it is my own self consciousness that makes it difficult to deal with her public tantrums, or her stubbornness when she wants a huge pumpkin, a squash, a tomato, and a balloon in the shopping cart with her all at one time, and I tell her she has to choose just one.

It was so good to read your post. I wish we were neighbors in real life so we could give each other that much more support...But I guess for now we'll just have to do it online.

Thinking of you Sticky!!


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## kerc (May 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
Tobias is just *more* than any child i have ever been around. i hate labels. i dislike the word "spirited". i don't know why but it bugs me. however, the descriptions that you all have written about your little ones describes my babe to a T.

LOL because I can totally relate. And also LOL because I googled Kurcinka's book because as I recalled her first sentence says


> "The word that distinguishes spirited children from other children is more."


Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
my pregnancy- intense. nauseating and uncomfortable.
his birth- long and brutal. he was 10 days past due and did not want to come out. i labored for two days and then almost died from a hemmorage after giving birth.

Ditto. Except I ended with a csection because she just.would.not.come.out.

Honestly, I felt I was a bad mother until my younger daughter was born. The whole second pregnancy I was just beside myself -- how would I handle 2 children if I couldn't figure out one? Well now I know, no matter what input we have as parents, output is partially determined by the child.

One note for the moms of younger poorly sleeping intense children: eventually sleeping does become less of an issue. My older dd (almost 6) needs less sleep than she did before and frankly it isn't all MY issue if she needs sleep. So that leaves me to enjoy all the absolutely freaking wonderful things about her.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

*peanutbuttercup*- thank you so much for the validation! i am so sorry that your dh works so much. i am incredibly lucky that i have dh around as much as i do. many hugs to you! (and yay for Asheville-one of my best friends lives there and it sounds very similar in vibe to where i live-Santa Cruz. too bad we don't live closer!)

your description of the comparing between your SIL and yourself sound so incredibly frustrating. at least people do recognize that her baby is "easy". the word that is more commonly used in commenting on other kids is "good". and i HATE it! it started in babyhood with the never ending "is he a good baby?" (to which i would answer "good? no! he is a AMAZING!")

for me, the comparisons come up mostly between myself and a friend with 2.5 year old twins. they are also well known in this town and they are wonderful, sweet, mellow, charming, adorable, "good" little boys... dream children. always have been. she is a gentle and kind mother with gentle and kind children. i love her kids. it is easy to. it would appear that my friend was a "child rearing" expert and for _her_ children she is! but when the mainstream methods, suggestions, ideas, tips and tricks that she uses are applied to Tobias all hell breaks loose. everyone loses- most of all Tobias because he is just not that easy of a child and i am not interested in developing an adversarial relationship with my son.

i feel and hear the sighs, the "why don't you do what X did with her boys...", the "you should try..."

so there is where i'm stuck. scrutinized. scrutinizing myself. defending my child. i need to practice a lot more "fake it til i make it" i think. and get a thicker skin. loving T. as he is without comparing him and without labeling him.

is AP parenting particularly appealing to mothers of "spirited children" because the alternatives are just so unsavory?

for example, and please don't flame me, but if i had a mellow babe who would go to sleep in a crib with a teeny bit of fussies and a little patting i dont know if i would have co-slept. i have horrid insomnia ("spirited"?!







) so sleeping with a tossing suckling infant has not been the been the most 100% amazing experience all the time. i do enjoy the closeness of co-sleeping, yes, but at the same time it has been the path of least resistance. the choice that gets the most people the most sleep. at 2 years old i would tell my mother i was sleepy and ready for a nap and into my crib i would go







but i remember that my brother, who was very sensitive and high needs, used to cry and scream and throw himself out of the crib. my mother, who was young and had no real support system, would just stick him back in there and let him wail. it was sad and i know i couldn't ever, don't want to, ever ever do that.

we know better so we do better. doing what works for our children not trying to squish them into a mold.

it's _easy_ to do mainstream basic by the book child rearing when you have a compliant uncomplicated child.

when you're dealing with an infant or child who is *more* it requires a lot more compassion, more understanding, more selflessness, more creativity, more everything you have because they demand more.
Tobias has pushed me to become more of a big picture person. to practice "parenting" versus "child- rearing".
not trying to sound self righteous at all! there are days when i'd be plenty content to parent by "the book".

*kerc*- thanks too for the validation. i am going to get the Kurcinka book and start reading it now. i checked it out on Amazon and it's funny to read the negative reviews. it gives me a good idea of whether i will relate to the book or not. i think some people really do want an XYZ guide to bringing up baby. (which is why Supernanny is so freaking popular!) a lot of people aren't really interested in parenting _their_ own unique child.

and i hear you on the birth stuff. i literally escaped a c-section by one hour!

i can't even imagine having another child. it scares me witless. my babe is also only 1 y.o. so we shall see...


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## kerc (May 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
is AP parenting particularly appealing to mothers of "spirited children" because the alternatives are just so unsavory?

for example, and please don't flame me, but if i had a mellow babe who would go to sleep in a crib with a teeny bit of fussies and a little patting i dont know if i would have co-slept.

AP parenting has to appeal to the parents of every kind of child.
I mean I understand it (attachment parenting) to mean listening to your child and finding a way to meet their needs (and I would argue also meeting your needs).

If you had a mellow kid (my #2) you might just think it's easier to send them to bed to start with and then let them come to bed with you when you're nursing mid-night. Or maybe it would be worth it to walk them back?


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kerc* 
AP parenting has to appeal to the parents of every kind of child.
I mean I understand it (attachment parenting) to mean listening to your child and finding a way to meet their needs (and I would argue also meeting your needs).

If you had a mellow kid (my #2) you might just think it's easier to send them to bed to start with and then let them come to bed with you when you're nursing mid-night. Or maybe it would be worth it to walk them back?

oh i totally get the appeal of AP and can't imagine parenting any other way- NOW.

growing up with parents who were "large and in charge" -not abusive but definitely authoritative/ authoritarian- kids were expected to tow the line and be a certain way. do certain things. sleep in their own bed. be obedient...

honestly, i can't say that it would have been my *first* inclination to AP if i had an easy baby. i wouldn't have questioned every pre-conceived notion i had about parenting if i had an easy baby. i would have done The Baby Whisperer or some other such "program" because if your kid is sleeping through the night, eating on schedule and playing happily and growing according to the charts it must *work*, right?







the why fix what ain't broke mentality. his "needs" would have been met with that methodology.

there isn't the thought with a lot of people (myself included pre- baby) that you could have more from your parent/child relationship, a deeper connection than just a kid who is "well behaved". ftr-not that well behaved children can't and don't have deep connections with their parents. but most parenting books out there or tv shows like Supernanny (gag) are concerned with the matter at hand- how to control "uncontrollable" children not how to have a deep connection with your child. most people want immediate results and gratification for their efforts. AP-ing is work for a lot of people and there isn't the immediate gratification especially when the inlaws and friends and society at large is telling you you're too lenient or your kid is "ruling the roost" because your child is not like other kids and you refuse to manipulate or punish. AP to me is like parenting for future returns! and there's still no guarantee that my kid won't end up miserable and not nice but at least i feel like i "tried" not just caved to the lowest common denominator parenting.

if for nothing else having a spirited child has made me question everything i thought i knew about parenting, children, intimate relationships and emotional intelligence...definitely a crash course.







ultimately i am immensely thankful that i have my own little Zen master but sometimes that immersion program can be overwhelming!


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## kerc (May 9, 2002)

Stickywicket I agree with so many of your points. I've often said that my Erin has made us better parents. A more mellow child would have shaped me in a much much different way.


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## LovinLiviLou (Aug 8, 2004)

Joining! My second is spirited, and she comes after a so-very-go-with-the-flow big sister. So, man, did this turn our lives upside down. Again, have to echo that "more" describes everything about her (except size - she's tiny for her age, which makes her punch even more shocking, I think!).

I don't have a lot to add at this point, but wanted to comment on the AP angle question. I had a rough time this past weekend, and unconsciously got all "tow the line" on my kids. Not mean or physical, but just very matter of fact and you must do what I say the first time I say it. Well, let me just tell you how effective that was for DD#2 - nada. So, I ended Sunday night in tears, and realized that, for me, AP is the way I want to parent, and it also is the only way this kid is going to grow up not fighting 100% of the time. But it is so tiring at times to constantly be working through what is going on in her head, and I do feel like my oldest gets the short end of the stick because of it. And I have to figure out how to balance that.

Glad to have found you all -


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

I am curious, now that a couple of you have said that the birth of your spirited child was more intense in some way, whether there is any commonality there as well.

Like kerc, my spirited boy would not come out. It was a homebirth, but the midwives were starting to talk about a transport. I went into labor on Good Friday and didn't have him until Easter morning. It took six hours of pushing. I had a homebirth episiotomy--only the 11th one they had ever done in 25 years. He had a knot in his cord and his hand was up on his head. Given his personality, it so fits that he took his time and was born with a sense of 'resistance.' Then he had those wise, wise eyes.

EAch year I understand more and more what this birth was really _about_ for him and me.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

I'm pretty sure I belong here, my DD was a pretty mellow infant, but then she hit six months old and the girl has not stopped moving since. She just turned 2 and has tempered down a tiny bit. She has made me become a more creative mom because we have to have fun things to do. She is a very energetic little girl and my mom now has told me that I was also.

This weekend I went to a wedding of some friends and there were many mutual friends there with children of the same age and for the first time I didn't feel like I had the wild child, most of the kids were also wild childs, I'm starting to realize for us that it's the apple doesn't fall far from the tree sort of thing going on with us. DD is crazy energetic because, well her parents are. I still do have to cringe in the store sometimes when she is singing the ABC song at the top of her lungs and no matter how many times I tell her to use her inside voice it doesn't work. I would be fine and *probably* not care if I had not been verbally attacked this summer by some old farts who were completely rude and asked if my DD was "mentally ill" because she was being her loud little self. They also proceeded to tell me I was a terrible mother because I could not control my not even 2 year old. Since that day I have been a little freaked out that someone else will say something about my DD. Sorry rant moment.

The saving grace is that today in my store experience one of the women working told me that DD was the "favorite" of the people who work there because she makes them all laugh and smile. I'm glad my little crazy girl does that, because she does the same for us. It's nice to know she brings joy into our little town.

I just hope that she is the wild child-I don't know if I could handle a child that was busier than her-I might go crazy.







:


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lauren* 
I am curious, now that a couple of you have said that the birth of your spirited child was more intense in some way, whether there is any commonality there as well...

...EAch year I understand more and more what this birth was really _about_ for him and me.


Well, with my Littlest that girl could not would not wait to come out! My entire "birth" was less than 2 hours from start to finish and EXTREMELY intense. As is she.

You know I never considered that her birth was a heralding of her personality. Although I have often thought that her birth shaped her personality. (I had imagined soothing sounds, warm water, deep relaxation.) sigh

Oh well, she's here, she's healthy, and she's fabulous!


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## CanidFL (Jul 30, 2007)

So how does a mom know if her child is spirited? I found this thread by chance and I think I might fit in here.

My son is very challenging. His birth was fast and very intense (under 2 hours). He was a pretty calm baby up till 3 months then he got very stubborn as I call it.

What DS wants, DS gets. Period.

Everyone I know tells me he is spoiled and we let him get away with too much. They all say "you are in for some trouble". Like I can help the way DS is. Here is an example&#8230;.we take him to the park with my mom. There are woodchips all around the playground. He likes to chew on wood chips. I don't mind because it's only wood and trying to NOT get him to put them in his mouth would ruin the whole park outing. My mom keeps telling me "you can't let him do that". She doesn't seem to get that for me to take away the woodchip would cause ear piercing screaming that would.not.stop until he got the woodchip back in his mouth. And ummm there are a million wood chips on the ground. Take away one and he will just pick up another.

DS has always been very determined. If he wants up on the couch to climb to the computer desk there is no stopping him. He could literally climb up and I put him back on the ground for HOURS. He will not stop until we leave the house. Distraction does not work. Ever.

He goes from happy to tantrum in no time. He is having regular tantrums at a year









He is very physical. Climbing, pushing, kicking, etc. He has pushed many babies at LLL and we had to leave once due to his pushing. I was so upset.

He is LOUD. Screeching when he is happy or mad.

He is an intense nurser. He nurses every 30 min or so during the day and every hour at night. He is very difficult to put to sleep and once he is asleep he rolls around and wakes up every 20-30 min unless there is a boob in his mouth. Try taking away the boob? Forget about it! He will have the biggest tantrum and it will take a couple hours to get him back to sleep. I think the lack of sleep is my biggest challenge right now.

He loves balloons, throwing things, and doing things on his own.

He needs to be held almost constantly. He will not sit in grocery carts either.

He clings to things. Like the other weekend he got ahold of DH's toothbrush. He carried that thing around for 2 days! Would not let it go. Slept with it, ate with it, etc.

He was an early walker and went from sitting to walking/climbing/running in a week at 7 months.

I have a breakdown almost once a week from the exhaustion.

I sometimes wonder if I royally screwed up by co sleeping, nursing, non CIO, etc. But the alternative to these is not an option at all. If I tried to put him in his own room at this point, I think the neighbors would call the cops thinking we were beating him.

On the flip side....he is the most adorable, fun, animated kid I know. He is such a joy and I love him to bits.

So do I fit in here?


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

I think yes CandiFL-much of what you said is what I feel on a daily basis, especially at a year. My DD's thing to put in her mouth was sand, lots of sand at the beach and there was no. stopping. her. She also is the most animated of the children I know around here, a friend of mine who is pg with # 2 has been hassling me about getting preggers-that is until she saw my then 22 month old sprinting across the yard, then jumping in her pool, then tearing around that yard, then jumping on her trike-you get the idea. She was like is she always like this? I was like this is a mellow day for her.

I stopped going to the local mom's group because DD was too intense for me to deal with. Everyone else had little babes and she wanted to love on them, as in pretty much eat them. I had to just stay home for awhile because going anywhere was a nightmare. She's fine in the car, but freaks out in the store. Not a bad freak out but freak out nonetheless. DH thought I was just complaining until he recently went shopping with us, LOL, he realized I'm not just complaining she is a PITA at the store. But we need food, so whatcha gonna do. He now gets it.


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## CanidFL (Jul 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
I think yes CandiFL-much of what you said is what I feel on a daily basis, especially at a year. My DD's thing to put in her mouth was sand, lots of sand at the beach and there was no. stopping. her. She also is the most animated of the children I know around here, a friend of mine who is pg with # 2 has been hassling me about getting preggers-that is until she saw my then 22 month old sprinting across the yard, then jumping in her pool, then tearing around that yard, then jumping on her trike-you get the idea. She was like is she always like this? I was like this is a mellow day for her.

I stopped going to the local mom's group because DD was too intense for me to deal with. Everyone else had little babes and she wanted to love on them, as in pretty much eat them. I had to just stay home for awhile because going anywhere was a nightmare. She's fine in the car, but freaks out in the store. Not a bad freak out but freak out nonetheless. DH thought I was just complaining until he recently went shopping with us, LOL, he realized I'm not just complaining she is a PITA at the store. But we need food, so whatcha gonna do. He now gets it.

Yes! I hear this all the time "is he always like this?". He is just a ball of energy. DH wants another kid and I am so.not.ready. I am scared to have another. Although we are talking about TTC in Feb next year. We will see how it goes over the next 5 months.

We went to visit my family last weekend and I cried after the trip because I was so insanely jealous of my sister and her easy going son. Her son was not bothered by anything. He just chilled out and played with a toy. If DS grabbed it away from him, he would just get another. When it was diaper time, he just smiled at my sister and clapped his hands. When it was bedtime, he took a bottle and was asleep in 5 minutes and did not wake up till morning.

My day is more like "DS be gentle to the baby" as he kisses (climbs on top of and bites) the baby, "DS we need to share", "DS that is not for babies", etc. Then diaper time it's like hold him down with one hand and quickly change the diaper with the other while trying not to get a headache from the screams. Nap time&#8230;.forget about it. He doesn't nap. Bed time consists of rocking, bouncing, nursing for an hour or more only to have him wake up 30 minutes later wanting to nurse.

I mourn the easy going son I thought I had. I feel so dumb for thinking that he would be a calm easy going personality like when he was new born. I keep saying "this is a phase and it will pass" but will it really? The "phase" hasn't passed in 9 months&#8230;..

I have been finding lately that I question how to discipline DS in the next year or so. I know time out would never work. How much to I let him get away with? He needs some boundaries. But at the same time, it's so much easier to just let him go wild then deal with the tantrum

I feel sad and stressed and all at once relieved that I found this thread.


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## Phoenix_Rising (Jun 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lauren* 
I am curious, now that a couple of you have said that the birth of your spirited child was more intense in some way, whether there is any commonality there as well.

My labor was _very_ intense for about an hour before my MW arrived (







PapayaVagina). We had a homebirth at my MIL house and I was in the hot tub. I didn't feel *pain* once I was in the hot tub but I remember feeling like there was a lot of pressure. At one point I remember Emily going inside the house to call my other midwife. Apparently she said something along the lines of I was pushing and if she wanted to be there for the birth she should get going







I didn't have any clue we were that close to the babe's birth - I was really pulled into myself and the experience. I don't remember much of what was going on outside of me (I wish I did). My uterus did nearly all of the hard work for me. I had to push to get his feet out (I guess my body thought that he was already out because my uterus stopped pushing) and work to get the placenta out. It was a very peaceful birth - the hot tub, candles burning, Enya playing very low. It was the very early morning and we were outside above a river under a blanket of stars. I can't imagine a more peaceful and perfect birth. I feel incredibly blessed to be able to look back on that experience and know in my heart I wouldn't really change anything about it if I could.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
I'm pretty sure I belong here, my DD was a pretty mellow infant, but then she hit six months old and the girl has not stopped moving since.

My little guy was so mellow until he was about a year old. I have often wondered how many spirited kids were that way from the beginning and how many it started when they were older.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

My DD doesn't nap either, she does STTN-unless it is the full moon, but she's always been that way. WE are a little out of it today as she didn't sleep last night.

I have a friend who just doesn't get it. She doesn't get why I just don't make her nap. I would rather deal with the 6pm meltdown than try to make her nap, she dropped both naps at 8 months. She did pick up the pm nap again a month later, but she decided that was enough around 22 months. So my days can really long. I want to have another baby, but IDK how I would do it-sleep deprivation, couldn't nap ever, I just don't know.

I'm glad that there are others out there because no one I know has a child like her. Sweet and sassy as she is.

Oh and I did know that we were in for it, she may have been mellow before 6 months, but the girl had so much personality. She also was the most alert newborn our L&D nurse had ever seen-so she was wired from the beginning. She just never was all that fussy-but she wanted to be doing things. My friend says she's a doer, not a sitter.


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## springmum (Aug 30, 2008)

I'm wondering if I could jump in here?
My little ball of energy is just about 4.5 months and he's a complete bundle of excitement already.

He was pretty relaxed and mellow, (but very alert) until about 2 months (I even commented to people about how good he was....)

After that he became this person that "MUST SEE EVERYTHING NOW". He will give up eating and sleeping so he can see what's going on around him. (and I have constant breast infections to show for that)
This makes going out very difficult - we limit our outings to a couple of hours. Trying to nurse him where I can't get into a dark, quiet room is an absolute disaster. He'll suck for 3 sec's then arch his back to look around - even if it's just a plain white ceiling.

At home I have to go into the bedroom, bounce on a yoga ball, and play white noise (or a relaxing cd) just to be able to nurse him. I certainly can't talk to him while nursing either.

Holding him is even tiring, b/c he constantly moving his arms and legs. He's wanted to stand in our laps since very young.

For a while now he has also had "temper tantrums". If he doesn't like where he is or what he's doing he'll let out this scream and arch is back... I always thought that's what age 2 was all about?!

Everywhere we go people have always commented on how alert/bright eyed he is b/c he just wants to see everything!
I look at other 4 month olds in my mom's group and he wiggles and looks around way more than they do.

The great thing is how much he loves to look at us and what we're doing. Sometimes he looks at my face like he hasn't seen me in weeks and just stares and giggles forever.....

That's all for now, the little demander needs me ... ha ha!!


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## avivaelona (Jun 24, 2005)

Just sticking my nose in with a "spirited" 3.5 year old. I'm not a fan of the word actually, but he's active, alert, intense, intense, and intense, he also has some sensory integration issues so he can be quite challenging. I've seen this thread for a few days and just hadn't got around to joining but after yesterday feel like I could use a little support.

One thing that is hard is friends who think I just need to be more strict. Truthfully I AM quite strict and don't put up with anything that feels like him "yanking my chain" but I'm not going to punish him for what he can't help you know?

Oh and yes, he was born awake and alert, he was induced and had trouble dropping during labor due to a nuchal cord wrapped three times around his neck, but when he finally did he actually squirmed his way out on his own with me NOT pushing. I tore badly and the doctor nearly dropped him. He's been the same way ever since.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *springmum* 
I'm wondering if I could jump in here?
My little ball of energy is just about 4.5 months and he's a complete bundle of excitement already.

He was pretty relaxed and mellow, (but very alert) until about 2 months (I even commented to people about how good he was....)

After that he became this person that "MUST SEE EVERYTHING NOW". He will give up eating and sleeping so he can see what's going on around him. (and I have constant breast infections to show for that)
This makes going out very difficult - we limit our outings to a couple of hours. Trying to nurse him where I can't get into a dark, quiet room is an absolute disaster. He'll suck for 3 sec's then arch his back to look around - even if it's just a plain white ceiling.

At home I have to go into the bedroom, bounce on a yoga ball, and play white noise (or a relaxing cd) just to be able to nurse him. I certainly can't talk to him while nursing either.

Holding him is even tiring, b/c he constantly moving his arms and legs. He's wanted to stand in our laps since very young.

For a while now he has also had "temper tantrums". If he doesn't like where he is or what he's doing he'll let out this scream and arch is back... I always thought that's what age 2 was all about?!

Everywhere we go people have always commented on how alert/bright eyed he is b/c he just wants to see everything!
I look at other 4 month olds in my mom's group and he wiggles and looks around way more than they do.

The great thing is how much he loves to look at us and what we're doing. Sometimes he looks at my face like he hasn't seen me in weeks and just stares and giggles forever.....

That's all for now, the little demander needs me ... ha ha!!

My DD was actually a lot like this, she was very alert(from day one), wanted to stand in my lap from about 4 weeks old-my grandma said she would end up bow-legged from that lol.

She also was never that cuddly of a baby, once she started moving it was grab mommy's nose, hair-which I cut off, and anything she could. Had to wear her outward facing in her front pack so she could see out, but she was mellow for the most part. She just wanted to know what was going on. She also developed with her milestones pretty early, moving her head, grabbing her feet-all on the early side of things.

avivaelona-totally get what you are saying about friends-my friend doesn't understand how I cannot get DD to nap, well she just won't it's an all out battle and I just am worn down. I just can't put her in bed and be "go to sleep kiddo, I know you need to." It's a hit and miss.


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## kerc (May 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
avivaelona-totally get what you are saying about friends-my friend doesn't understand how I cannot get DD to nap, well she just won't it's an all out battle and I just am worn down. I just can't put her in bed and be "go to sleep kiddo, I know you need to." It's a hit and miss.

Me too. But add in there "family" as well as friends. And frankly, the only thing that gave me confidence that I was actually doing it "right" was when dd2 was born and I tried all those things the books suggest and lo and behold they worked.


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## ~Yola (Sep 2, 2006)

Um, ya...I most definatley belong here! I'm an introverted, quiet, shy, low-energy Mum to three, count-em, _three_ Spirited/hight energy kids ages 9, 4, and 2 (today!).
And I'm almost 7 mos. pregnant with #4 (and hoping for a mellow one, but I'm not holding my breath!)

My eldest was born after a 5 hour, very intense, painfull labour with terrible back labour. She came after puching for less then 20 minutes though, despite having one hand over her head and the other tucked around her chin.

I couldn't put her down for the first year of her life (and didn't know anything about babywaering







) even when she was sleeping. It could take me an hour or more after she'd fallen asleep to unlatch her and roll of the bed without her waking again. She was always increadibly alert, and learned sooo quickly, once she was mobile she was actually a fairly easy going child for a year or so. She listened well to things like 'That's Mummy's, not for you to touch' or you must hold my hand when we're walking near cars' and, mostly due to the constant 1 on 1 attention I think, rarely acted out.

Then she hit 2, and all of a sudden her Dad, my Mum, strangers at the store, etc. decided she was old enough to be given sugar (despite my disagreeing) and oh my, did things ever change! I would spend up to an hour sitting on the floor with her on my lap, holding her legs with mine and her arms in her lap, using my crossed arms to keep her upright so she couldn't reach to bite me, while she screamed and screamed and screamed. She would get totally out of control, even her own control, and there was nothing else that could be done for her.

She's old enough now to discus ahead of time if she feels able to handle herself if she eats a treat (chocolate and blue and red die are the worst) and can be told to go run it off if she's wrong. But she's still a very high energy, extroverted kid, and I have a heard time keeping up with her constant need to talk, interact, know what's going on with everyone _every_ moment etc....I find it increadibly draining, and don't really have anyway of getting a break from it. On the bright side, she is brillliant, creative, she can be the most empathic and helpful and caring person when she's not feeling needy and trying to get attaention by acting up. For the most part she is great with her Brothers, she's got the energy I don't to keep up with their activity level









And then there's Ds1. THe day he aws born I woke up at 4 am needing to go to the bathroom. By the time I sat down on the toilet I realised I was actually starting to push and could barely make it back down the hall to wake DH. Ds was born 50 minutes after I woke up, and that was with 40 minutes of panting through contractions to try to give the MW time to make the drive over. I don't recall him having that 'wise one' look, but he was always very alert and early with his milestones. When he was 7 mos. old he crawled across the room, pulled himself up on Dh's pant-leg, put his head on DH's lap so he could see him under his magazine and said "Hi Dada" clear as a bell. He's always been facinated by anything with moving parts, balls, plugs, switches....anything with a cord has to be completely blocked off with furniture to heavy for him to move or it's a toy (and he is a strong boy!)

When he was 18 mos. old he knocked his chair over backwards and landed on hardwood floors aplied directly to the foundation. He fell asleep twice while nursing for comfort, and the second time we couldn't wake him up. He was unconsous for 12 of the longest minutes of my life. Because he was awake and alert by the time the ped. saw him at the hospital it was decided not to send him off Island for any testing (it would have meant a life-flight, which they didn't feel was warented). He was a very expresive little boy, using signs, facial expresions and tone to get his point across quite clearly, so it wasn't until 9 mos later when the Health-nurse came to do the newborn hearing test that someone noticed...he didn't talk. At all. He had a few distinct sounds and gestures that we had learned to recognise as meaning certain things, but he didn't use words at all, and he'd been saying about 50 of them at the time of his fall.

We've been working with a Speech therapist since then, but he's only started talking since last Nov (he's almost completely caught up though!!) and the time in between was just Brutal for me. He is so increadibly stong willled, he fought every step of the way with us about attempting to talk, and on the meantime everything was a battle not just due to his temperment, but also his inability to comunicate effectively and his own frustration with knowing that was such a big part of the problem!

This kid just does not listen. Don't hit gets met with a punch, kick, or a 'YA!!!", stay on the playground gets met with deaf ears and running to the parking lot or the docks, don't touch Mama's sewing machine means wait until her back is turned (if I'm lucky!) to pull it to pieces, same with Daddy's computer. Going to palygroup (in an elemantary school) usually means hunting the halls for him because I dared to watch his little brother for a second.

He's a terrible sleeper, though in the past month going to bed has been getting better. I had a discusion with the team leader of his therapy team about a week after reading Raising your Spirited child and she said something that made _so much sense_, namely, if I spend an hour or two dealing with him being tired, gumpy, argumentative and not willing to go to bed at night whith him still up and running around, what diference would it make if I was dealing with the same thing, but in his room to emphasise my seriousness when saying it's bed time? So I started not leting him out of his room once it was time to go to bed (I lock myself in with him!). Amazingly, within about two weeks I was able to leave the room to go put Ds2 to bed and he would eaither fall asleep on his own, or Dh would go lie down with him if he got up.

Reading that book also gave me a lot of insight into other areas that are issues for him, though the fact his now vocal enough to say things like "there's rocks in my blanket, it's bad' intstead of just not sleeping all night sure helps! I've finally mannaged to gain some understanding of his sensory issues, and will be able to get some help from his therapy team with learning how to deal with them. I've also realised that transitions are a big issue for him, which has helped, if not quell the tantrums and fights, at least give some understanding and a little more compasion when dealing with them!

I hear you all on the dificulty of having others blame your parenting choices for your kids behavior, unfortunately for me, my Dh has decided AP is to blame







he's burnt out by it all, suffering from 2 years worth of sleep dep., and is of the opinion that being hard-nosed with the kids is the only option left. I'm not sure how to deal with it, other then to limit the need for him to be the one dealing with them, which means more work and less down time for me right now









I've mannaged to write a novel, lol and I haven't even touched on our third yet. I've got to feed the brood though, so It'll have to wait for another time.

So glad to have found this thread, I look forward to taking part in discusions with you all!


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## forest~mama (Mar 16, 2005)

I belong here! My dd has been spirited from the beginning. It's almost hard to think back and remember how she has been because every day is so exhausting at this point.

I can relate to some of you saying it's difficult to leave the house. Up until a few months after my dd's 2nd birthday, she was in a hitting phase that lasted much longer than most children. When I would go to indoor park, parents started out by saying that it was "just a phase-every child does it". They quit saying that, and I started to get looks every time I went. After dd bit a 10 month old who was invading her space, we stopped going to indoor park. I'm happy to say that she did discover the world of group play and stopped hitting in exchange for playtime with others.

It was really hard to hear some of the comments that came after she quit hitting, which may sound weird. People say things like-isn't it nice that she is past hitting everyone? I guess she just finally figured out other kids won't like her if she does that! Ug.

DD is not much of a public tantrum thrower, but she is so intense at home. She is busy all of the time-morning till night. She wants to see everything, and has been that way from birth it seems. She is intelligent, and has a huge vocab and knows how to use it.

I was and still am a spirited person, so I do get her most of the time. I was different than her as a child, but some things were very similar. We both will do what we want, when we want, and have fun trying to change our minds. It will be very interesting seeing how our similarities play out in the future!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peanutbuttercup* 
*stickywicket* - Your story really hits home. Scarily, I can relate to every single thing you wrote.

Yes-it sounded much like my life with my daughter.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket*
i can't even imagine having another child. it scares me witless. my babe is also only 1 y.o. so we shall see...

I hear ya on this! Mine is 2 1/2 and I want another, yet fear it at the same time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lauren* 
I am curious, now that a couple of you have said that the birth of your spirited child was more intense in some way, whether there is any commonality there as well.


My water started leaking out on a Friday, and I was on and off in labor until Monday morning. Dd was posterior, and took her time coming out. My pregnancy was also difficult-I was very sick from week 5 until her birth.


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## forest~mama (Mar 16, 2005)

Did I scare everyone off?


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

Hi there! I think we just need a new direction or topic!


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

So...hows this for a topic?

If any of you have been on the Nightime parenting boards you know that I have been having serious issues with the lack of sleep.

Do they ever sleep? What worked for you?

Anybody have some rreeeeeallly funny stories to lighten up my sleep deprived mind?


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## amis2girls (Mar 2, 2005)

I'll join.







I thought my oldest DD was spirited, but she just didn't fit the descriptions I'd found. Now at six she's quite mellow and easy to predict.

I think my third is spirited. She'll be three in December. Her birth was quick as anything. She loves sleep.
But don't tell her no when she doesn't want to hear it. Oh my goodness. She demands your constant attention. If you're in the house and you notice she's quiet, it's too late, she's already emptied the liquid soap or drawn on herself with highlighters or whatever. She loves loves loves to go out. Leaving for home is a problem. Who wants to leave someplace fun?

But she is entertained with anything. My other two kids wander aimlessly not knowing what to do with free time. She can play with a box.

No interest in using the toilet. Happily in diapers, despite my chagrin.









Here for more ideas on just what to do with these kids.


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## Phoenix_Rising (Jun 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~lioneyes~* 
Did I scare everyone off?









You are so scary, Chelsea









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
So...hows this for a topic?

If any of you have been on the Nightime parenting boards you know that I have been having serious issues with the lack of sleep.

Do they ever sleep? What worked for you?

Anybody have some rreeeeeallly funny stories to lighten up my sleep deprived mind?









Until Keagan was between two and two and a half I could count on one hand the times he had slept four hours in a row. Until he was about a year or year and a half it was about an hour and a half at a time maximum. Between then and nearly two and a half he was consistantly sleeping about two and a half or three hours at a time. Last night he slept six hours in a row. It is the second time in his life he has ever done that. He will be three in a month and a half and he night weaned about 7 or 8 months ago I think. He has just in the last month or so stopped wanting to take naps at all but still wakes up around 6am and is ready to go all day long until about 9pm.
Funny stories? Hmmm. He announced to all of the ladies in the public restroom the other day that I needed to go pee when we walked in. I was so thankful they couldn't understand him







I'm a bit brain fried to think of anything other than that right now, sorry.


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## IBC Mama (Sep 21, 2008)

Jumping in. Sleep and the spirited kid, ha!
DD is almost 5 and has kept us on our toes since the beginning. We call her the Vivid Girl, so that gives a hint about her intense personality. Nothing is halfway with her, that's for sure. She is also highly distractable, to the point where I have to remind myself that "there is no straight line between point A and point B" for this girl.
She has only recently begun sleeping through the night, and that's not every night by a long shot. And she has never gone to sleep without serious help from us. At this point, she and DH sleep in the twin beds on the floor in her room and I have the master bedroom to myself. I am hoping DH will be able to move in with me sometime in the next year. He managed to get DD into her own room when I had surgery this summer, so I could sleep without being kicked in the stitches, and she has been pretty happy with the arrangement.
She nursed through the night until I finally night weaned when she was 3; we stopped nursing to sleep when she was 3 1/2. Before that I couldn't even leave her in bed by herself for more than 10 minutes or so most nights. I don't think attachment parenting is necessarily a drain on a couple's relationship, but attachment parenting our kid certainly has been.

We have learned a lot but still have daily battles. We know that when her mind is made up it's our job to help her find a way to do what she wants to do. She is never going to 'let it go" or take no for an answer.

I do think other people judge me for this, or think she is incredibly spoiled. I try not to worry about it. It's easier now that she's older. the thing that always gets me is when other parents give advice that starts with the word "just...." Like, "just *make her wear pajamas" or whatever. With our kid, there is no "just" anything. Everything is a negotiation.

It's exhausting, but I wouldn't have her any other way.


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## springmum (Aug 30, 2008)

Ha ha ... sleep huh? I was just commenting in another thread about our napping issues.

At 4.5 months I realize I have some time before I get to the stage most of you are at, but I can still relate.

Funny story just happened today.
Okay, add this to "mom of the year award" ....

I sleep with cabbage leaves on my boobs every night due to engorgement and recurring breast infections.
Well I guess early this morning one of the leaves must have fallen out as I was taking my shirt off and I didn't notice at the time.
I went to the closet to get my little guy a new diaper. When I turned around again, there he was happily chewing/sucking on the cabbage leaf he found (he doesn't have teeth yet, so didn't get any pieces off thank goodness)

I certainly didn't plan on cabbage being the first thing he would taste, and wasn't planning on foods for a while! He had the goofiest, drooliest grin on his face when I took it away, like " what mom, it's good!"

Right now I am also amazed at how he can wake up almost exactly (like to the minute) every 2 hrs at night sometimes.

I remember I was visiting a friend with a little girl a week younger then my little monkey. She was sitting in her bouncy chair and actually started to fall asleep in it - I was shocked - I thought everyone had to do the "nap gymnastics" to get their child to sleep!!


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## accountclosed2 (May 28, 2007)

I wonder if DD might fit in here?

She sleeps, just not much. And it is a hassle getting her to sleep. She usually has about 7-9 hours sleep out of every 24. By three months she had dropped all daytime sleeps but one, the mid-day one. She sleeps in her push-chair in the day-time, after a brisk walk around the block. Sometimes she gets 5-10 min at the breast as well. At night I usually spend about 2 hours getting her to sleep (feed 45 min, no sleep, playtime, feed another 45 min...). If we're unlucky we get another time like that when she wakes at night. She usually wakes twice, and feeds at least 30 min everytime. If she's not asleep when she comes off she'll need a play before trying again. Grrr.

We have never really been able to move her when asleep (not in car seat, or put her down if asleep on us when younger etc, or move her slightly in bed). She wakes up. And we can't leave her while in bed, she has always woken up within a few minutes if we do. If she wakes up slightly she's up, there's no easy getting her back to sleep.

Most of the time she is actually rather happy, and doesn't usually seem too tired. She often feeds every hour when awake, so I guess that gives her extra energy hen she's getting tired. Or annoyed. She wants to get into everything, and loves to climb on the laundry rack, and play with cords, with porcelain cups and bowls, with the computer. She loves eating books. And she gets furious if she can't have her way.

She hates getting dressed, always a fight. Nappies are a hassle. Hated the bath from the beginning, we usually shower, although she has just begun to realise that she can splash water all over us and the floor while in the bath, which is fun...

She is quite sensitive to sounds. If she's in a good mood, things like the vacuum cleaner or washing machine excites her. If she's tired or moody it will make her cry. If she's feeding she comes off, even if it's just DH walking into the room. She hated swaddling and always wants her arms and legs free.

For the first 3 months, she refused to let me put her down. And when she did get down (at 3 m), she started combat crawling. She rolled over at a week. Oh, and she hated the sling from the beginning, arching her back etc. Already as a newborn, she would try to throw herself out of our arms when angry. When she was a few hours old I had placed her in the little bassinet next to me at the hospital, and that tiny little thing started crying and actually tried to climb out of it! I had never seen anything like it!

At a month she [pulled herself to standing, and since then she has spent her time when we are out (unless feeding), standing in my lap watching people.

What everyone says about her: "Oh, she's so alert, isn't she?".

I had a terrible, miserable pregnancy, and got a long, drawn-out hospital birth (with an ever-present threat of c-section) instead of a planned home birth.

I don't really like labels, but it has just been extremely hard (part of that has had to do with weight gain issues and breast feeding, to be fair). I've worked as a nanny for years, never met a child like mine, and just didn't expect it to be so hard. I love my charming, happy, adorable little girl, who just need a lot of attention and entertainment.


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## LovinLiviLou (Aug 8, 2004)

So, can I expand on the sleep stories idea to see if we can share tips and tricks that work for our spirited kids? I'll start (though I'm still in need of plenty more!)

This sounds crazy, but a major breakthrough for kitchen battles came for us in the form of a nifty little knife made by pampered chef called "my safe cutter" or something like that. A great friend of mine gave it to us, and I can't tell you what a gift it has been. My little one is very eager to help in the kitchen, and knives were always a big battle (since I usually need one at some point to finish the meal prep . . .). Now I give her a cutting board and her safe knife, and she can go to town on whatever I have for her to cut, and she is happy as a toad.

Giving her "her own" everything - for everything her big sister has, she has a version, too. This year big sis is in kindegarten and has a folder that she carries papers back and forth to school, so I got one for DD#2, too. She carries that thing around and is so happy to have her own folder.

Sleep - sleep is a huge issue for us, too. Helping this child to fall asleep is seriously the thing I dread most in my daily life (that sounds horrible when I type it out . . .) and it usually takes 45 mins to an hour. She cosleeps with us in our big bed (but with an earlier bedtime than us), and my newest trick (who knows how long it will last) is to pretend like I'm asleep, and not respond to anything she does. She, at 2, will pull all kinds of tricks (her latest is to say she has to go potty, which is quite funny since she has zero interest in it all day while awake . . .) and so I've just started pretending like I'm asleep. the only thing I break this for is if she actually gets out of bed, but aside from that, I just pretend to be asleep, and it has dramatically decreased the amount of time it takes her to settle down.

Ok, that's all I can think of for now. Share yours!


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## Alathia (Nov 18, 2005)

So I read "The Book", and while DS1 fits into the spirited category, he's one of those intense spirited kids. Anyone else have a kid like that? He's not wild, he doesn't tantrum in public, he's just...very, very intense. And empathetic to the nth degree. When he was younger, he'd cry whenever someone else was crying. As he was able to articulate more, he'd tell us he was sad because they were sad as well. He's not much of a talker, but looks and remembers everything, then acts it out again at a later date.

As for sleeping...he didn't start sleeping through the night until he was 3 (he's almost 3.5 now). He's never needed much sleep, he's ok with 8 hours a day (total!) but sometimes gets 10. And when he's up, he's go go go the entire day until he crashes at night.


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

I like the tips and tricks!

I was wondering if anyone noticed that NOT taking a nap helps with nighttime sleep. I know that totally goes against the grain of "sleep begets sleep" but there is such a looonnnngg period of time between her needing to take a nap and her being READY to take one.

I find that if she is only a "little bit" sleepy that just means she has a lot of fight left in her. She will fight sleep tooth and nail.

BUT, if she is too overtired then it's like she CAN'T settle down. Sigh.

One day she had exactly one hour nap (she CAN take up to a total of 3hours on her own little schedule) AND went to bed about an hour late. She slept 5 hours. I have been trying to recreate that without any sucess.

What about you?

I seriously do not want to still be obsessed with the sleep I'm not getting when she's three!







:


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## springmum (Aug 30, 2008)

Great idea on the tips & tricks!!

AGain, my little "sleep fighter" is only 4.5 months, but I wanted to comment on the skipping the naps for a better bedtime.

One thing I'm sure you all experience is that when you are away from home, the world is too exciting for our little ones to even think about napping. On those days when we're out and he doesn't nap well, he either; wants to crash and have a good nap once we do get home or go to bed for the night earlier.
I have even gently woken him up if he is having more than about a 45 min nap around 5 because I notice it affects his ability to go down for the night.
(yes, I wake a sleeping baby!)

I'm sure we've all tried the "get them before their overtired", "wait till their exhausted", but for our little energy balls - the world will always be too exciting to want to shut it off.
The only other thing we do is, spend a lot of time in bed with the lights of/dim and soothing music on, until I can bounce on the yoga ball without him flinging himself backwards to get him to sleep.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

hi i'm back! i've been reading and catching up on everyone's little ones.

my parents were just out visiting and they haven't seen my ds since he was 5 months old- he is now 12.5 months.
my mom and dad both commented on how "busy" he is! and how much older he seems than 1. they raised 4 children and my mom did daycare when we were kids so they know kids pretty well. it was interesting getting their perspective ( and thankfully they are not the bossy, 'you're spoiling him!' ,mainstream-y type grandparents







)
even though i was a mellow kid my mom said was i was very impatient/easily frustrated and i was sensitive and intense and independent at an early age.. i see that with Tobias! he is very active (like my dh) but he has my intensity and my impatience. whoohoo- we are in for it!

also, while the grandparents were here we were go- go- go all day taking ds out places and in and out of the car. we rarely ride in the car during the week and walk a lot. he likes riding in the stroller (doesn't like the ergo at all.) he seemed out of sorts not getting that daily walk, fresh air and the outdoors.

i also noticed he needs his floor time and routine.

he does not like a lot of being talked to. he is very social, definitely, but when he is -done he is d-o-n-e. everyone must not look at him, not talk to him and let him settle down. he was beside himself on one of the days after too much visiting and he was just flipping out. i ran a bath and let him have some water play in there w/ just me and quietness for about a half hour. he totally calmed down and had a big nap after. it was as if all the people, all the conversations, all the focus on him just got to him and he needed to go *inward*. both dh and i are like that! we enjoy parties and socializing but when we are done we need time to be alone and mellow out before we can relax fully.

sleep- ha! he needs boobie for sleep. sometimes if he is properly tired (not overly tired) and mellow dad can walk him down. he sleeps with us. lately he has been having a lot of morning nursing from about 4 am-8 am. it's like every 1.5 hours. dh gets up for work at 4am and i think it wakes him from a deep sleep and he has a hard time settling back into it.

did any of you with older children feel like at around 1 y.o. that co-sleeping became counter- productive? i almost feel like he is so sensitive that my presence beside him is waking him up. i know i sleep much much better alone. i don't have a crib and don't really have a plan for transitioning him to a bed so any suggestions would be welcome!


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## avivaelona (Jun 24, 2005)

Not that early stickywicket, but around 2 I needed to transition my son out of my bed because we kept waking each other up. (oh and before that I had to put a pillow between us) I just put a crib sized mattress at the foot of my bed...but that worked for us because my bed is on the floor. At 3 years 8 months he still is sleeping there, becuase he sleeps like he's wrestling with demons and its just easier having him in the same room as us (he ends up out of bed constantly, kicks off the covers in our cold house...etc) but at least in his own space we don't wake each other. How about sidecarring a twin bed next to yours?


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## kerc (May 9, 2002)

LOL as I'm reading this, I'm sitting in my bed typing, basically waiting for my almost 6 year old spirited child to fall asleep. I'm thankful that she can now semi-articulate that she needs mom (Beyond crying and total meltdown). In bulleted form because I'm tired and watching TV







:

My biggest thing is that I could enjoy my child more once sleep became something that wasn't quite so important in her life.When it was something that she was either desperately needing (often pre18 months) or I was trying very hard to get her to get, then it was hard on me. I was a bad mom because I didn't just lay her down in the crib. I was a bad mom because she wasn't gaining weight. I was a bad mom because, well, it sounds like ya'll know the drill. Turns out she's just like this and I'm NOT a bad mom. Some kids do fall asleep in their high chairs (my dd2), they do fall asleep in a bouncy seat (dd2) and they do LOVE their slings (dd2).

Who asked about napping being a problem with sleeping at night? We did get to a point where we couldn't let her nap. That was probably 2.5-3.5 yrs.
Overtired: yes, that = not being able to sleep here. My daughter had that going on tonight.


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

You know, I am positive that at least _some_ of her wakings are because dh and I wake her up. If I had the space, I might consider letting her have her own room to see if that made a marked difference. Right now, her bed is next to ours,

She usually takes a total of 3 hours in naps. But that is onle after 6 weeks of serious work from me.

The last week has been horrible. at least 3 hours awake overnight. 1-4am, 2-5am, 3-6. I find myself too exhausted for marathon yoga ball sessions.

Sometimes I wonder if AP is the best parenting style for this temperament. Usually I'm sure its the best parenting style - I just wonder if I'll survive it!

Its nice to have other people who get it though.


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovinLiviLou* 
Sleep - sleep is a huge issue for us, too. Helping this child to fall asleep is seriously the thing I dread most in my daily life (that sounds horrible when I type it out . . .) and it usually takes 45 mins to an hour. She cosleeps with us in our big bed (but with an earlier bedtime than us), and my newest trick (who knows how long it will last) is to pretend like I'm asleep, and not respond to anything she does.
Ok, that's all I can think of for now. Share yours!

I tried that during one of these overnight awake times - no dice. Although, she did fall asleep in the stroller- for the first time EVER! I go for daily early morning walk for exercise and sanity. They are brief, 20-30min tops, and it is relatively new for her to tolerate the stroller at all. But I find exposure to sunlight helps her to fall asleep. Maybe it has something to do with the bodies production of melatonin?

And for me sleep is THE thing that keeps me from enjoying my family, all of them, to the fullest.


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## Phoenix_Rising (Jun 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IBC Mama* 
We have learned a lot but still have daily battles. We know that when her mind is made up it's our job to help her find a way to do what she wants to do. She is never going to 'let it go" or take no for an answer.

I do think other people judge me for this, or think she is incredibly spoiled. I try not to worry about it. It's easier now that she's older. the thing that always gets me is when other parents give advice that starts with the word "just...." Like, "just *make her wear pajamas" or whatever. With our kid, there is no "just" anything. Everything is a negotiation.

I think that I could have written this almost word-for-word. Can I just "yeah that" your whole post?









Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovinLiviLou* 
my newest trick (who knows how long it will last) is to pretend like I'm asleep, and not respond to anything she does. She, at 2, will pull all kinds of tricks (her latest is to say she has to go potty, which is quite funny since she has zero interest in it all day while awake . . .) and so I've just started pretending like I'm asleep. the only thing I break this for is if she actually gets out of bed, but aside from that, I just pretend to be asleep, and it has dramatically decreased the amount of time it takes her to settle down.

We have tried this a few times with DS. It doesn't work with him though, he just gets really angry and yells in our face "look at me" and hits us. Ugh.


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## Hiker Mama (May 12, 2008)

Hi Everyone-
I haven't been on MDC for a long time, and just came across this thread. My oldest is definitely within the spirited spectrum. He is 6 and started first grade this year. I think I can relate to all of you on some point or another. Yes! I knew from day one that he was different than what I had expected. He had a look in his eyes. He'd stare right at you, actually freak other people out, especially in the store. He never slept more than an hour or two. I finally night weaned him just before 2 and that helped. We never co-slept, but he did sleep in a cradle in our room and then on a mattress on the floor until I couldn't take it any more. By the time night rolled around I needed my space from him, I was so frustrated and exhausted, and I needed him in his own room. He wanted to nurse constantly. He would not let us put him down. It seemed like he was always "on" and that he had a hard time shutting off. In the past few months we have discovered he has some food sensitivities, and I believe that might have contributed to his night-waking.

He had night terrors a couple of times a week when he was around 3. When he was 18 months the tantrums started in earnest, and there were a few years that I hated taking him places. It seemed I was always having to leave storytime in the middle in shame. I really did not enjoy being a mom until he was about 4. I always felt incredibly guilty about that. He would fight me about everything, and was so sensitive to every tiny disappointment (still is). He had issues with loud noises like the vacuum and loud cars and trucks. We have to still be very careful about what he watches on TV.

I never thought of myself as an angry person until I had him. I never understood why parents abuse their children until I had him. Having my ds has made me have to grow in so many areas. But I believe I am more compassionate, patient, creative, understanding...because I have been forced to deal with a child that didn't fit the mold.

One of the things that the spirited kids book helped me most with is understanding that I am also spirited, I am just an introvert, and he is an extrovert, and so we clash a lot. I need my space and alone time, (which, as a martyr, I have a hard time asking for) and he needs MORE of me. Also, it helped me to reframe my thinking (at least sometimes) to see many of his unpleasant characteristics as potentially positive when he reaches adulthood. I view my job as helping to guide and mold those characteristics so that they are more positive when he is older.

My dd (2) is much more "easy", though she is 2 in all its glory. With ds, 3 was worse than 2, and it got a bit easier each year after that. Ds is very intelligent, and I love seeing the things that he can do well. He continually surprises me.

This is getting really long. I did have some things that have helped over the years that I wanted to share, but I think I'll try to gather my thoughts and post those another time.

I wish you all the best! Hang in there! You're not alone!


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi - I think we belong here too.
DD is only 9 months but she's been extremely intense from before day 1! I went to 43 + 1 weeks with her and ended up with a horribly traumatic birth as she was malpositioned, probably the result of her *constant* moving while I was pregnant.
She has slept for a 4 hour stretch once about 6 months ago. I recently posted in the Family bed section on our sleep difficulties as at the moment she is sleeping for only 30-45 mins at a time and needing to be nursed everytime. I've tried not nursing her but she gets so angry that I have to get up and rock her back to sleep which takes ages.
She is incredibly active and has been from the beginning. She's starting to walk already and constantly climbs things - hanging by her arms only from the dining table and pulling herself up! She cannot stay still, so baths, nappy changes, putting clothes on etc are a real challenge as she wriggles, writhes and screams.
She needs to be held a lot and nurses all. the. time. I read about other moms whose babies are nursing 5 or 6 times a day. Mine could quite easily nurse that often in an hour! When she doesn't get what she wants she screams and cries and nothing will calm her down or soothe her - basically mini-tantrums already!
She likes people and they like her, but she doesn't often interact with strangers. She'll look at them (stare at them even) but won't react at all if they talk or smile at her.
She hates transitions - always crying between sleep and wake, moving and still, up and down etc. and is very sensitive to changes, even while asleep - a tiny noise or movement will wake her up. She hates to be restrained; car seat, high chair etc. will have her screaming too.
I also get the 'She's very alert/active!' comments from strangers.
She's also very intelligent -she learns very quickly. I was able to teach her at 7 months to get down from the bed 'feet first' and she always does now.
She's a wonderful baby, but oh so challenging for me. We live abroad and I don't speak the language which makes it that much more difficult because I don't have any family or friends nearby to help out.
One thing I have found to help occasionally with the sleep is lots of activity outdoors in bright sunshine in the afternoon. Of course that doesn't help much in the winter!


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## Phoenix_Rising (Jun 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hiker Mama* 
I never thought of myself as an angry person until I had him. I never understood why parents abuse their children until I had him. Having my ds has made me have to grow in so many areas. But I believe I am more compassionate, patient, creative, understanding...because I have been forced to deal with a child that didn't fit the mold.

One of the things that the spirited kids book helped me most with is understanding that I am also spirited, I am just an introvert, and he is an extrovert, and so we clash a lot. I need my space and alone time, (which, as a martyr, I have a hard time asking for) and he needs MORE of me. Also, it helped me to reframe my thinking (at least sometimes) to see many of his unpleasant characteristics as potentially positive when he reaches adulthood. I view my job as helping to guide and mold those characteristics so that they are more positive when he is older.

I can for sure relate to a lot of what you have written here. I had a very romantic/idealized version of motherhood in my mind. Suffice to say that as much as I love being a mom and am in love with my child, my views on mothering and parenthood have changed a bit since his birth







I too believe that I have a better sense of understanding and compassion now when compared to before his birth.
I like what you had to say about the spirited introvert. I will have to think on that


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## LovinLiviLou (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hiker Mama* 
One of the things that the spirited kids book helped me most with is understanding that I am also spirited, I am just an introvert, and he is an extrovert, and so we clash a lot. I need my space and alone time, (which, as a martyr, I have a hard time asking for) and he needs MORE of me.

Wow - this is EXACTLY how I feel, except that you did a much better job than I have of phrasing it! DD#1 and I do not clash at all (at least not yet







), and I went through the first 3 years of her life just thinking that we must be so good at this parenting thing . . . til DD#2 entered our lives! And then I learned that it really had nothing to do with us.

It has gotten easier as DD#2 has gotten older, and even just in the last 6 weeks I feel like its gotten better. She is beginning to really be able to communicate what she wants, and man that makes things easier. Because this child has very distinct ideas about what she wants and is very vocal and unhappy when she doesn't get it. And the things she wants are, well, things you'd never understand if she couldn't talk. Like she wants her fork to rest on Mommy's plate in between bites (meaning she takes a bite, hands me her fork, I rest it on my plate, she then indicates she wants it back, takes another bite and we do it all over again). Or she wants to wear 1 sock on one foot and 1 shoe on the other. Or she wants me to get the car keys and put them in my pocket, but with one key hanging out while all the others are in the pocket. Seriously, she is quite a control freak about things like this, but for very odd types of things. And as she can now communicate it, I'm understanding that all along I think she's known what she wanted, and I just didn't get it (because, silly me, I didn't think to try 1 sock on one foot and 1 shoe on the other). She's just now almost 2 1/2, so we get to have lots of fun times!


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## emcare (Sep 11, 2005)

Just found this tribe and I am so glad that I have. My middle one is spirited and an extovert. I am an introvert. I am so happy to have such a sprited kid. I don't know what I'd do with a kid like me. It can be hard, but I'm so happy to see my little girl being a crazy maniac and super social. I know that she will be able to take care of herself when she needs to.


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## CanidFL (Jul 30, 2007)

I had a bad day today and just feel like crying. I was only with my son for 2 hours







: 2 people got laid off at work and I was really stressed out when I picked DS up. When we got home he was his normal energetic self. Today he decided that he wanted to scale the couch and ottoman to climb up the stairs. He was determined as you could guess. Every time I took him back to the kitchen he would have a 20 minute meltdown. He was crying so hard he was throwing up. It was awful. I tried holding him and nothing helped. He just wanted up those damn stairs. Then it was the diaper war. He had to get his night time diaper on and he was freaking out and throwing up crying again. I'm so sad









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
So...hows this for a topic?

If any of you have been on the Nightime parenting boards you know that I have been having serious issues with the lack of sleep.

Do they ever sleep? What worked for you?

Anybody have some rreeeeeallly funny stories to lighten up my sleep deprived mind?









I don't have funny stories. DS is still waking every hour or so.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *springmum* 

I remember I was visiting a friend with a little girl a week younger then my little monkey. She was sitting in her bouncy chair and actually started to fall asleep in it - I was shocked - I thought everyone had to do the "nap gymnastics" to get their child to sleep!!









We just went to visit my parents for 5 days and every night they were like "omg you do this every night? you sure have stamina" It's not like I have a choice! The kid needs an hour "nap gymnastics" to get to bed.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
I like the tips and tricks!

I was wondering if anyone noticed that NOT taking a nap helps with nighttime sleep. I know that totally goes against the grain of "sleep begets sleep" but there is such a looonnnngg period of time between her needing to take a nap and her being READY to take one.

I find that if she is only a "little bit" sleepy that just means she has a lot of fight left in her. She will fight sleep tooth and nail.

BUT, if she is too overtired then it's like she CAN'T settle down. Sigh.

One day she had exactly one hour nap (she CAN take up to a total of 3hours on her own little schedule) AND went to bed about an hour late. She slept 5 hours. I have been trying to recreate that without any sucess.

What about you?

I seriously do not want to still be obsessed with the sleep I'm not getting when she's three!







:

I cut out DS's second nap at 8 months because he wasn't going to bed till 12am. Now he sleeps 30 min around lunch time and that is it. I don't think it helped with better sleep at night BUT it did get him to bed earlier. He goes to bed now around 7:30.

Sorry for being so negative today


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## PapayaVagina (May 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
So...hows this for a topic?

If any of you have been on the Nightime parenting boards you know that I have been having serious issues with the lack of sleep.

Do they ever sleep? What worked for you?

Anybody have some rreeeeeallly funny stories to lighten up my sleep deprived mind?









Wow! I got waaay behind on this thread. I didn't know it kept going. Guess I should do better at checking emails, lol









Dd has definitely had her share of sleep issues. I've tried several times to nightwean her but it wasn't semi successful until she was 18 months old. Before that, she was up at least every 45 minutes all night long every.single.night. We used Dr. Joy Gordon's recommendations for night weaning and have been working on that for several months.

Right now, she has been going to sleep much, much easier (I did find some of the suggestions in Raising Your Spirited Child very helpful!). It varies as to how soon she will wake up after that. Sometimes it's an hour and sometimes it is 5 hours but when she does wake up and I won't nurse her it is a NIGHTMARE. This morning she screamed for probably 2 hours before finally giving up. Dh finally took her out of the room after she'd been crying for probably 30 minutes. I feel bad. I never wanted to do any sort of forced weaning on her but I need sleep desperately. I do everything that I can to comfort her when she is screaming for bubbies but nothing works. She doesn't like to be talked to, touched, sung to, etc. etc. it only makes things worse.

The other day I had to sling her over my shoulder at Fred Meyer in the check out while she was kicking and screaming. Last night she head butted my mom while they were playing a board game.

On the positive side though, since her sleep stuff has gotten better she has been obviously happier in many ways but definitely still intense. I would just really love to be able to have her not nurse at all at nighttime (I cannot sleep well when she is latched on at all mostly because of the scratching, pinching, hitting and kicking). In the mornings once I do start nursing her she is stuck to me like glue and I can't get up to go to the bathroom or she will wake up almost immediately, but will stay in bed for quite some time if I just let her nurse (same goes for naps).


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## PapayaVagina (May 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hiker Mama* 
I never thought of myself as an angry person until I had him. I never understood why parents abuse their children until I had him. Having my ds has made me have to grow in so many areas. But I believe I am more compassionate, patient, creative, understanding...because I have been forced to deal with a child that didn't fit the mold.

I completely, completely relate. I didn't realize that I had serious control issues until dd was born and my anger has been very disturbing to me. I like to think of myself as a pretty gentle soul but I have had a very short fuse with dd, especially over sleep issues but I just really struggle when she is flipping out when I'm trying to change her diaper or when I need to force her into her car seat. I was raised in a spanking family, and though I desperately do not want to ever spank, there are scary moments when I just feel out of control and soclose to crossing that line because I am so frustrated.


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## PapayaVagina (May 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IBC Mama* 
I do think other people judge me for this, or think she is incredibly spoiled. I try not to worry about it. It's easier now that she's older. the thing that always gets me is when other parents give advice that starts with the word "just...." Like, "just *make her wear pajamas" or whatever. With our kid, there is no "just" anything. Everything is a negotiation.

It's exhausting, but I wouldn't have her any other way.

I feel judged sometimes as well. I'll never forget what a mom said in one of our local parenting groups about how she thought the whole idea of high-needs kids/spirited kids was just a scapegoat for the parents not being bonded. On the other end of the spectrum though, I know that many feel that we have been lax with her.


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PapayaVagina* 
I completely, completely relate. I didn't realize that I had serious control issues until dd was born and my anger has been very disturbing to me. I like to think of myself as a pretty gentle soul but I have had a very short fuse with dd, especially over sleep issues but I just really struggle when she is flipping out when I'm trying to change her diaper or when I need to force her into her car seat. I was raised in a spanking family, and though I desperately do not want to ever spank, there are scary moments when I just feel out of control and soclose to crossing that line because I am so frustrated.









:
OMG it's so good to know that there's someone else struggling with the same things! I feel miserable, because I get so angry with her - I've shouted at her a few times and feel absolutely awful about it. Like last night - she woke every half hour or so and when she wasn't nursing she was climbing all over me. I got a particularly painful knee in the nose and lost it and shouted at her.








We have the nappy changing, car seat, buggy, high chair issues too. I do my best to find creative ways to make her happy about it, but sometimes I have to force her, and I hate doing that too.
I think one of the most difficult things is not only dealing with my own anger, but with my DH's too. He's had anger issues since before DD was born, and honestly I don't want to leave her with him for any length of time, because I think he has a much harder time controlling his anger than me. I've seen him curse at her when she wriggles during nappy changes and get really angry with her, and he only deals with her for an hour or so a day, while I get some housework done. The rest of the time I do all the parenting - that's hard even if you have an 'easy' baby.
How do the rest of you deal with other people (especially your SOs) and their relationships with your spirited child?


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

i'm totally a "spirited" introvert!









ahhh yes the nightime knees in the face, swatting, kicking, climbing all over me at 2,3,4,5, in the morning. arrgghh. this weekend was hell for sleeping! i think our bed is just too small and if ds is right next to me he wants boob all.night.long. i posted in nightime parenting about it...

Quote:

How do the rest of you deal with other people (especially your SOs) and their relationships with your spirited child?
i feel really lucky that my dh is a very very patient person. more so than i. otherwise i would probably lose my mind. i might honestly have to have a babysitter come by a couple times a week just to make sure i stayed calm and sane. i'm sorry you don't have a good support there with you dh, lisabeeprague









since i'm the one that lacks patience and burns out faster i try to communicate to dh when i need a break and he is pretty good about stepping in before i lose my cool. i also let dh know that he may be ok with Tobias' roughhousing around and climbing all over him but i'm not and that i need to have my own relationship/boundaries with him.

i don't like it, for example, when i say to Tobias that it's not ok to pull mama's hair and i set him down on the floor for him (and i) to calm down and dh will pick him up in a defensive way. dh and i are individuals and it's ok for Tobias to have his own relationship with each of us. dh doesn't need to be overly protective of him when i'm being firm with what's not ok to me. i don't say it meanly or harshly but it is said seriously and sometimes i think dh projects his own issues onto ds. dh was a "mama's boy" and a very spirited child. his grandma wasn't very nice to him as a kid because of it so i think he's sensitive w/ Toby not feeling rejected.

*lisabeeprague* -is there a way that your dh can play with your dd or take her for a walk/out of the house at a calm time of day so you get a break and the icky power struggle things are left to the parent that handles it better (you







) ?

i've been taking T. to organized play groups where there is a good mix of ages (3 and under) in a totally safe space with new and different toys. he likes the older toddlers and burns off lots of energy in crawling around after them. the moms seem pretty understanding of his "barging in" since he is still a wee one and a very smiley guy! i don't hover parent but i do make sure he isn't whacking a baby or inflicting any harm on another child. the older kids are pretty good about letting him play along side them and he likes the company. i certainly like not having to be 100% in charge of his "entertainment" for an hour or two! it gives me a much needed mental break. he's usually pretty ready for his nap when we come home so it makes for a good day together.


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## FancyPants (Dec 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lauren* 
He would have an hour long tantrum if his banana broke.

...
I have an informal question I ask parents of spirited children--when your baby was first born, did s/he have that 'ancient'/wise look, an intensity, like a little sage or buddha was living in your baby? Almost every spirited child I've ever known had that look at birth and now I can pick them out just after birth; most often I'm right.


I had to laugh about the banana (thank you I really really need a laugh today). Yep. Wouldn't eat the #$&m banana unless he peeled it. And if it broke - no longer edible.
I actually toothpicked the banana together to get him to eat some.

And yes. Ds2 definitely had that look. Still does the faraway thing sometimes.


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## kerc (May 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hiker Mama* 
Hi Everyone-
I never thought of myself as an angry person until I had him. I never understood why parents abuse their children until I had him. Having my ds has made me have to grow in so many areas. But I believe I am more compassionate, patient, creative, understanding...because I have been forced to deal with a child that didn't fit the mold.











I'm up because my almost 6 yo wet her bed for the second time in 2 nights. urgh. She woke up at 5, I woke up when she came to bed and I couldn't get back to sleep. See above note about anger, LOL. I'm seriously laying there, thinking, "my god if you would just pee when I freaking tell you to during the DAY this would.not.be. and issue.:"

So i left and came to work, promising to come back for breakfast.

Enough ranting......I participate in the county health department's program where you fill out a questionaire every 3-4 months and they gauge how far along on development your child is. It's fun (and my kids have not shown anything that is a red flag, but fun to evaluate them compared to other kids.....). Last question, "What do you enjoy most about your child?" And now I put the question to you....


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## springmum (Aug 30, 2008)

I'll join you in the 5 am wake up club - seems to be the new time to get up around here....

Great question!!

Despite his intensity and difficult transitions from awake to sleeping/eating, there really is a lot about my 5 month old that I love.
The thing that really sticks out though is how he stares at me so intently sometimes. It's like he hasn't seen me in weeks and doesn't want to miss a second of what I'm doing - even if I try to show him toys/books etc. I'm grateful that we started sign language so at least I have some interesting gestures to go along with what I'm saying - who knew I was that interesting!!
Sometimes when I hand him off to a friend or family member he won't even look at that them, he'll turn around in their lap to watch and smile at me.... I have to leave the room sometimes just so they'll get a little attention from him!!


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## CanidFL (Jul 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kerc* 
Last question, "What do you enjoy most about your child?" And now I put the question to you....

Good question!

I LOVE LOVE LOVE how happy DS can be. He is on the total extremes&#8230;either raging mad or super happy. I love those moments where we can chase him around the house for an hour and he won't stop running or giggling. Then he falls on the floor laughing and rolling. It's so fun and I just really cherish those moments.


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## lactivist (Jun 14, 2005)

Here is a perfect example of a spirited child. I was trying to get my son ready for school today and he wears a pull-up at night. I was asking him to help me get him dressed and he wasn't cooperating. He would just lie down on the floor and not respond so I tore off his pull-up to get things started. He snapped about me "breaking" his diaper. I had to get a new one so he could put it on and then take it off the "right way" and then proceeded to get dressed while sobbing about his "broken" pull-up. Some days I am just not ready for these kind of power struggles so early in the morning. I am stressed out so he is acting out twice as much.









Wendi


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

What I love about my Littlest...

Well, one thing would be she has the best laugh ever.

At two months she just started laughing. A big bouncing bubbly laugh that makes strangers stop and take note.

Its the one thing that brigtens my mood no matter what.


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## joeys_mom (Feb 11, 2007)

My 2 1/2 yo son has been spirited from the start. I couldn't even put him down for at least the first 6 months. He napped on me and spent most of the time awake nursing. He is still nursing now and I don't think he plans on slowing down anytime soon. I find it hard to go into stores alone with him, he won't wait for me to pay! He is the sweetest most wonderful boy and I wouldn't want him to change but the battles to get him dressed and out of the house sometimes make me give up on seeing the light of day!! He loves music and I think it really helps him get his 'beans' out.

Dh finds bedtime more frustrating than me but he helps by reading LOTS of stories. I still nurse him to sleep (thank god!) or else I think he'd try to stay up all night!

I do get scared that if I have another it will be soooo exhausting. I've JUST started getting more sleep and feeling somewhat normal.


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## averysmomma05 (Feb 28, 2007)

Hey everyone,

I am new to this thread. I have 2 dd's and my 3 yo is very spirited! Hope to get to know yall more. I am going to read the rest of thread now lol.


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## averysmomma05 (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
So...hows this for a topic?

If any of you have been on the Nightime parenting boards you know that I have been having serious issues with the lack of sleep.

Do they ever sleep? What worked for you?

Anybody have some rreeeeeallly funny stories to lighten up my sleep deprived mind?









My dd #1 NEVER sleeps omg. She stays up til 12-1am crying and tired and screaming but WILL NOT go to sleep until the whole house goes to bed with her. Sometimes I wonder if I am ever going to get to actually hug or kiss my husband without her screaming or getting mad or something.


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## SamuraiMom (Nov 7, 2006)

I'm bumping up this thread, cuz, my DS is a spirited boy, it is what I love about him. But there are times where I want to bring him outside and make him run laps around the house! The funny thing is that he would! So we've started going to the skate park once a week and he starts gymnastics on Thursdays. Running to the market right now, but I will read the rest of the thread this evening.


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## Phoenix_Rising (Jun 27, 2005)

Mamas, I need help. DS is having a hell of a time right now







Here is some info, maybe someone will have insight for me.

He will be three years old in a week. He is generally a happy child but VERY spirited. Really the only issue we have (besides being exhausted trying to keep up with him!) is the excessive amount of hitting he does. We went gluten-free in May to see if that helped, and it seemed to help quite a bit. Fast forward to the middle/end of October. Hitting has started again in full force. More than once both DP and I have broken down crying from having to deal with it all. day. long. I had to put myself in a "time out" the other day to escape for two minutes







: No new food introductions. As far as I can tell, there has not been any gluten, even hidden stuff in foods. He has not been sick, nor have DP or I.

Here are the only ideas we have: the time change and the lack of as much sun as we have had (we live in Oregon and the sun has disappeared for awhile







). Also, we went on vacation with my family (mom, brother, SIL, sister) and flew across country for that. The issues started about three days into that vacation. He is not able to tell us what is wrong; I don't think he knows what is wrong. Ninety percent of the time when we ask what is wrong he will say that he wants milk (to nurse). Even that doesn't help though.







Help?


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## Stephenie (Oct 11, 2007)

I am so glad to have found this tribe! My little one, almost 19 months is spirited through and through. I can't wait to read all of this and catch up. We love him so much, but sometimes it's hard when other people just don't understand that things are not that as simple for ds as other kids... like bedtime!


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## MOMYS (Nov 5, 2008)

Suzanna, could it be SAD (seasonal ???? disorder)? I read in one of my parenting books (sorry can't remember which one and they are all in the container coming from South Africa to Canada, so I can't even check) about a mom who finally figured out that her son had SAD. Although she could obviously not force the sun to shine, they did managed easier knowing what it was and making allowences for it!

I have 6 sons. #2 is borderline spirited, #4 is highly spirited and #6 is OVER THE TOP spirited! I have always been pretty confident and comfortable with my parenting, but this child makes me question everything I have ever done. He will be 2 in a couple of weeks and the melt-downs are something to behold! Yesterday on the way back from the park he screamed so much (this high pierce-your-spine-constant-shriek) that some old lady opened her front door to gawk at us! I really struggled to carry him with all his flailing and kicking.

I'm still nursing him and loving it, BUT I am starting to feel sleep deprived.


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## kerc (May 9, 2002)

We didn't necessarily notice the craziness that was our dd1's 3rd birthday until we sit back and reflect because dd2 was born when dd1 was 35 mo old.

But dd2 who is mellow is now about 2 months into what our beloved child care provider is calling, "SERIOUSLY three". Hitting, "NO!", assertion of contol, etc. Whenever we get into a phase like that with dd1 (my spirited child) it always helps to get back into a rigid routine. And lots of talk about what to expect, along with lots of choices about how to do things (would you rather wear tights or pants? or would you like your sandwich together or open faced? for instance).

What we eventually did with our spirited child at 3 for bedtime and morning was to get a list of the things she needed to do to get ready and let her check them off: if she wanted her clothes, breakfast, pottying, and jacket on all done BEFORE toothbrushing so be it. But there were the bare minimum tasks we needed to do.

Once we kick back into a rigid routine for about a week dd1 mellows out and we can relax it a litte.


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## Phoenix_Rising (Jun 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MOMYS* 
Suzanna, could it be SAD (seasonal ???? disorder)? I read in one of my parenting books (sorry can't remember which one and they are all in the container coming from South Africa to Canada, so I can't even check) about a mom who finally figured out that her son had SAD. Although she could obviously not force the sun to shine, they did managed easier knowing what it was and making allowences for it!

I have 6 sons. #2 is borderline spirited, #4 is highly spirited and #6 is OVER THE TOP spirited! I have always been pretty confident and comfortable with my parenting, but this child makes me question everything I have ever done. He will be 2 in a couple of weeks and the melt-downs are something to behold! Yesterday on the way back from the park he screamed so much (this high pierce-your-spine-constant-shriek) that some old lady opened her front door to gawk at us! I really struggled to carry him with all his flailing and kicking.

I'm still nursing him and loving it, BUT I am starting to feel sleep deprived.

It *could* be SAD (the 'A' is for 'affective'







). I have it; for sure it is a force to be reckoned with. However, he hasn't had issues with it before and we have lived here since he was born (really, for the last 12 years). I just feel like I have used all of my ideas and nothing is working







I really hope it is something other than "being three" because if that is what the issue is, well, I just don't know how I'm going to make it to four.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

susannah - one of the things i found with my dd is she goes thru some 'emotional phase' which includes hitting. she is 6 and was hitting even last year. it was like she was so mad - the only thing she could do was hit. i never understood the why and i dont think she did either. i feel she definitely went thru emotional growth spurts because after that she seemed much more easier. last year though there was a LOT going on in her life too. it might be a continuation of the holidays. and the fact that he is asking to nurse yet not able to find comfort in it shows he is looking for something. i know baths, water was v. v. calming for my dd. even the sink was v. helpful to her. just the warm water soothes her so much. many times i would just let her be in a smaller tub 3 or 4 times a day.

reading was another thing that calmed her down.

oooooh i had another idea. is he v. high energy? are u guys getting enough exercise? change of environment.

and here is one thing i have discovered about being the parent of a spirited child. as much as you ask for support i find most times i have to come up with the 'solution'. i could never apply what worked for others.

i have a 6 year old v. spirited, high energy, v emotional yet v. sensitive too, v. social child. she is the child who is never overwhelmed. energized when in a crowd. like she knows how to plug into others energy.

when i was pregnant - i got a lot of comments since my child is a mixed child of how pretty she would be - but i used to say i dont care if she looks like elephant man. i want a child with personality!!!! hah!!!!! did i get just that and MORE. i used to put on classical music at work to concentrate at work. woah. she would kick me till i put on some rock. she still loves music with a beat.

yup she was a Csection (i didnt know about birth options then) after 25 hours of labour. the sweet kind nurses tried helping by taking her and rocking her - she screamed to high heaven. mind u she was the only baby who wasnt taken to the nursery (i told them i wanted her with me). the nurses right there and then told me i had one of 'those' ones. it was so sweet to see them hold her and try to rock her. sometimes she tolerated them and was happy being with them.

and i will say i am so grateful she was spirited. yes i tore my hair out, was done being a mommy at 5 pm.... but i dont know i would know how to be a mom if she hadnt guided me into the mommy she wanted me to be.

going thru a marriage breaking down really helped me focus on her. i was stressed out the first 18 months of her life till we separated. so with teh stress of dealing with an emotionally withdrawn person gone - it was easier to deal with my dd. everything - the sleepless nights, food issues - was much more bearable than the emotional turmoil of trying to work at a failing marriage.

if i hadnt done AP with my dd i dont know how she could have grown up emotionally unscathed. her dad who is v. much present in her life - doesnt practise AP - but is a good and creative dad. just one of those who is not comfortable with a little child. he didnt really get involved in her life till seh was 3 years old. everything i went thru to parent her was worth it when at 4 she told me 'mommy you understand me - daddy doesnt)'.

all i can say about my dd is she is unique. she always stands out in a crowd. in positive and negative ways. but all her life she has been different than other kids around her. as a toddler she hung out more with teh moms than the kids at playgroups. at dc/ps she was voted the school clown.

right from when she was a baby she has always known the bottom of my reserves. just when i felt i couldnt take it no more - she would suddenly get easier. give me a break. as much as i needed. and then back on track.

from when she was 4 i felt like i was bringing up a teenager. and the more i used teen type parenting style it became much bearable for her. giving her her independence to do things. to believe her. never ever saying no, but defining limits. open to reason. always, always giving her a choice. never ever telling her what to do, but making suggestions.

she is a curious child with a whole different take on everything. she figured out a lot of the creating of baby from being with me at the bathroom. even now she doesnt tolerate too much physical distance from me. we are always as close as that activity will allow. at 5 she finally wouldnt buy any more time about 'no mama tell me EXACTLY how the sperm meets the egg.'







: then she wanted to know 'but how did daddy know when to send sperm or pee?' 'so pee is like water and yellow. what does semen look like?' she till today asks questions i have no answers to.

she didnt STTN till she was 3 1/2. she still nurses. and we cosleep. we both sleep better when we sleep with someone.

life is an adventure with my dd. i never know what's around the corner. all i know is there IS something around the corner.


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## ShyDaisi (Jan 22, 2007)

I haven't read all the posts, but am extremely grateful for finding this thread. I thought it was just me! It is nice to know I am not alone. I am the single mom of a very spirited almost 19 month old.

Subbing! I will be back to read and post more after bedtime!


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## Phoenix_Rising (Jun 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
susannah - one of the things i found with my dd is she goes thru some 'emotional phase' which includes hitting. she is 6 and was hitting even last year. it was like she was so mad - the only thing she could do was hit. i never understood the why and i dont think she did either. i feel she definitely went thru emotional growth spurts because after that she seemed much more easier. last year though there was a LOT going on in her life too. it might be a continuation of the holidays. and the fact that he is asking to nurse yet not able to find comfort in it shows he is looking for something. i know baths, water was v. v. calming for my dd. even the sink was v. helpful to her. just the warm water soothes her so much. many times i would just let her be in a smaller tub 3 or 4 times a day.

reading was another thing that calmed her down.

oooooh i had another idea. is he v. high energy? are u guys getting enough exercise? change of environment.

and here is one thing i have discovered about being the parent of a spirited child. as much as you ask for support i find most times i have to come up with the 'solution'. i could never apply what worked for others.

meemee - Thank you so much for taking the time to respond in such detail







DS is nearly *always* highly emotional, and has been since he was between a year and a year and a half old. Even those times when he seems on an even keel, something comes up from behind us and there we are at the top (or bottom) of the roller coaster again. It is *so* quick. I know he is looking for something to help him feel better - it is evident that the hitting other people bothers him too after the fact. He knows he is hurting us; you can see it in his eyes. Mind you, sometimes he looks like he is enjoying it, but all the time he knows he is hurting us and we don't like it.
When he gets like this often the only thing that can calm him entirely is a nap, but goodness knows he does his best to avoid falling asleep! Playing calm music does not help, nor does trying to sit down and cuddle and read a book.
High energy - when weather permits he goes to the park daily. Otherwise, we try and get him to an indoor park or to a playgroup. He does much better in those settings but it can be hell to get him to the point of actually being ready to get into the car and *go* to the park or playgroup. Change of environment can definitely help, but sometimes it isn't possible (ie if he won't let us get clothes on him







)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
from when she was 4 i felt like i was bringing up a teenager. and the more i used teen type parenting style it became much bearable for her. giving her her independence to do things. to believe her. never ever saying no, but defining limits. open to reason. always, always giving her a choice. never ever telling her what to do, but making suggestions.

We have tried this for awhile - the whole letting him do things independently. We don't do well with not using *no* though.







: We define limits and give choices. I'd say 90% of the time when we are telling him what to do it is telling him that he *may not* hit us - we are sure to give him options of what he may hit when we tell him that he can't hit us.


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## Tapioca (Feb 4, 2005)

be back later. this is soooo the thread for me and my spirited 4.5 DD.


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## PapayaVagina (May 11, 2002)

We have been zombies around here lately...dd had chicken pox just recently and reverted to waking up about every 30 minutes or so. After some very rough nights of trying to get her to get back to sleep I'd had it last night. When she is nursing to sleep she will often twiddle my other side but sometimes get into these scratching, pinching, smacking frenzies where it takes every fiber in me to grit my teeth and bear it (because if I tell her no she'll fully wake up and start crying). I got her to bed early last night, she slept for 30 minutes, I went in to nurse her back to sleep and after an hour I couldn't take it anymore. I basically let her cry herself to sleep







I feel so horrid


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## kerc (May 9, 2002)

Meemee wrote:

Quote:

as much as you ask for support i find most times i have to come up with the 'solution'. i could never apply what worked for others.
And that is so true in every aspect. If asked, I would tell you that parenting Erin (now 6) made me a better parent. Although I'm learning to help my littlest deal with the dominant personality in the house and hold her own.


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## slvsquared (May 3, 2007)

I have to re-read the book. I have the most intelligent, spirited, INDEPENDENT two year old known to man, and I think I may just lose my mind if I hear "mine do it mineSELF" one more time. Between that and the dancing on the coffe table (I only wish I were kidding), things are a bit out of hand at my house.

It's become even more noticeable since we had Luna. She's laid back. She's mellow. She lets me PUT HER DOWN.

It's very strange...lol


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## springmum (Aug 30, 2008)

Just something fun for us!

Finish the following sentence:

"You know you have a spirited child when...."

I'll start:

When walking through the mall, my 6 month old (at the time, he's 7 months now) begins practicing his yelling skills. Not angry or sad, just yelling at "aaagggghhhh" as we walk through the mall. There weren't too many people that didn't stop and look at us as I carried him through.
In fact two ladies came up to "see what all that noise was about" and he blew spit bubbles at them!

Nice to see the thread back in action again!


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## kerc (May 9, 2002)

You know you have a spirited child when....

your 2.5 year old says to you, "I'll just go ahead and pee on the floor. I don't want to use the potty."


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## Phoenix_Rising (Jun 27, 2005)

PapayaVagina. You know where to find me if you want to talk or visit. I will try and call you later today.


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