# it always bothers me



## poetesss (Mar 2, 2006)

...when I hear about others' birth experiences. I mean the typical hospital ones where mom is rushed from a doctor's appointment to the hospital just because she happened to be dilated to 4 cm, the ones where water broke and there was hysteria about inducing labor, etc. etc. So a relative is currently in labor and of course, rushed off to the hospital at the first pangs of labor. At 1 cm on arrival, admitted, and less than 6 hours into it is already on a pit drip. Of course no one thinks there is anything abnormal about this.









I just can't seem to brush it off, ignore it, not let it bother me. It just does. I have to learn to let go and let live, but somehow I am very sensitive to these things and hearing about these type of births makes me ache, wishing we had a better system.


----------



## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

It bothers me too. I pretend not to hear, or read about. Luckily my family members' are done having babies, I hope anyway.


----------



## happybunny (Mar 2, 2009)

I can totally relate. My SIL's best friend was pregnant right along with me. She had her baby in November, I'm due in a week and a half. She had the typical hospital birth experience. Water broke, went to the hospital within an hour, was put on Pitocin even though she had regular contractions. Baby hadn't dropped quite yet and she was dilating slowly but steadily. She got the epidural at 4 cm. There was already talk of a c-section at this point. She got to 10cm within 14 hours of her water breaking, was pushing for one hour and the doctor tells her she is doing everything right, but the baby just won't come out this way. No sense in trying any longer. So she had an "emergency" c-section. Afterward she was told that she supposedly has a tilted uterus and she will now always have to have c-sections.

Meanwhile I am planning on a homebirth and all I hear about is this story. Don't get me wrong, my family is fairly supportive of our decision. But SIL has already told me that I must just have the right kind of body for pregnancy and birth, because I haven't had any complications yet. So I guess somehow I am special, because everybody else has some kind of problem. People don't seem to understand that birth does not have to be a scary medical event. And if you have an uncomplicated, natural birth they think you were either just lucky or you are some kind of freak of nature. There is so much fear surrounding childbirth in this culture! People just can't accept that women's bodies are not broken.

Hearing about this friend's pregnancy and birth bothered me A LOT. I tried to really be supportive and understanding. I constantly felt like I needed to rescue her, because she seemed to believe all along that somehow she couldn't do this. It is really difficult to step back and let go. I bit my tongue so many times. At this point no one in the family is allowed to bring this friend up in conversations with me. I need to not worry about all this stuff right now. My baby could come any day and I just want to be excited and feel good about my own choices.


----------



## shells_n_cheese (Jun 8, 2009)

I feel the same way. I get very anxious when I start to hear so and so is in labor, or even just pregnant.


----------



## laughingfox (Dec 13, 2005)

I get sad about this, too.
I just can't wrap my brain around how people can hear stories like these and see them as "normal" while natural birth is so feared and reviled.

Like happybunny said, women are made to think there's something "wrong" with them and they "can't" give birth without all of this "assistance".

It leaves you wondering what to say, how to support them as a friend.
You want to be tell them there's nothing wrong with their body, tell them that it has nothing to do with them and everything to do with standard policies- maybe if they were allowed to stand, walk, change positions, eat, or simply allowed to take their time, the chances are ridiculously high that they would never have "needed" invasive medical intervention/surgery.
..but at the same time, trying to offer such support and statistics can be seen as criticizing their choices, or telling them it's their fault for not putting up a fight, even though that's not what you're trying to say at all.


----------



## dogretro (Jun 17, 2008)

I hate all these stories, too. It's part of why I am so glad that a place like this forum exists


----------



## happybunny (Mar 2, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laughingfox* 
..but at the same time, trying to offer such support and statistics can be seen as criticizing their choices, or telling them it's their fault for not putting up a fight, even though that's not what you're trying to say at all.

Exactly.


----------



## Tattooed Hand (Mar 31, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dogretro* 
I hate all these stories, too. It's part of why I am so glad that a place like this forum exists









I feel the same way. I'm having a home birth, and at BEST, I get an indulgent, condescending, "we'll see" from the people around me. At worst I get reactions about how dangerous something like that is, as if I am attempting open heart surgery alone. I'd go nuts if I didn't have somewhere to come and chat with like minded people and learn from people with more experience and knowledge than me.


----------



## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

i just start throwing statistics at people. for healthy mamas who have no complications, homebirths are safer. i was actually talking about this the other day with my dad, whose an MD. he basically said that OBs practice unethical medicine. they don't seem to take the whole "above all do no harm" thing very seriously. my father, for the record, is super mainstream about medicine. he doesn't believe in acupuncture or chiropractic or anything like that. he is a strong supporter of homebirth, though, because he knows the risks of going to the hospital when you're in labor. the risks are real! pop culture is very influential in this society. right now it dictates how we birth our babies. most people can't be bothered to actually weigh risk. they just do what everyone else does. it's sad and frustrating. i try to educate women as much as i can about what really goes on.....


----------



## Serenyd (Jan 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
most people can't be bothered to actually weigh risk. they just do what everyone else does. it's sad and frustrating.

Esp when it's something stupid, like a c-section for a first-time mom because her baby is going to be "huge" and when it's born it's only 7 or 8 lbs.... those _really_ bother me.

I feel like I can't say anything to any of my mainstream friends about how they plan to birth because
I will be seen as being judgemental or just plain nuts.


----------



## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

About educating women.....some really don't care! I mean, they care about their babies, but think that Dr.'s "know what's best" and will do anything & everything they say, without a single thought about it. They'd rather be decorating the nursery, buying expensive needless junk, or coordinating their baby's wardrobe. Sad but true.

How could someone NOT care how their baby enters the world, and where? And don't get me started on the vain mothers who have a C/S just to get a tummy tuck at the same time, or because it might ruin their sex lives to have a vaginal birth. To put your sex life ahead of your baby's well-being is very selfish!


----------



## lilabet (Aug 6, 2003)

Don't be too rose tinted spectacle-ish about the other side though. Just read my birth story to see how blase the midwives in the UK are now. (See Birth Stories forum, posted not that long ago.)


----------



## lilabet (Aug 6, 2003)

Huh? Is someone deleting my posts? I just put something up that disappeared... Odd. Anyway, I was saying, going totally the other way, where midwives practice the norm, leaves a lot of people in the UK beyond the help of the hospital system. We aren't even allowed to remain at hospital until we're 4cms dilated, and neither will a midwfie stay with you - this is my story, and it's normal... The grass is not always greener.

Ah ok it came back! Sorry.


----------



## Peace+Hope (Jul 6, 2009)

of course, it is GOOD to be thinking critically of the system, but difficult for me to leave that "at the door" when i'm hearing about/thinking about the experiences of friends and family.

i don't judge them as women i know and love, but i can't not feel sad or sorry for their experiences, or even questioning (which i keep to myself - like, REALLY, your pelvis is too narrow to birth vaginally? maybe the pit/epidural cocktail and you lying on your back with IVs for hours had something to do with that stalled labor?) and this makes me feel guilty and judgmental in turn.

i'm most concerned other women i know will be afraid i'm judging their experiences by choosing to step out of the system they trust, when i really just want what's best for me!

it's a hard balance...


----------



## phoebemommy (Mar 30, 2006)

It's hard for me, too... I never understand how women can't see that they're being subjected to truly inhumane treatment in some of the stories I hear.


----------



## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phoebemommy* 
It's hard for me, too... I never understand how women can't see that they're being subjected to truly inhumane treatment in some of the stories I hear.

Yes, especially the rough pelvic exams & the bullying into unnecessary interventions. I shudder & cry inside for them.


----------



## GreenGranolaMama (Jul 15, 2009)

It bugs me too... we had to have our birth at the hospital because of insurance issues, but I was defiantly the one telling all of the nurses to PLEASE leave me alone! There are parts of my sons birth that totally bugged me...and it was completely and totally intervention free! It was just the looks I got from the nurses... I vomited during transition (completely, totally, 100% normal) and the look on her face was like "GREAT now I'm going to have to clean that up!" I KNOW, KNOW,KNOW our next one will be born at home.


----------



## Lizbiz (Jun 15, 2008)

Yep, it bothers me tremendously too. I wish people just took a little time to ask more questions. I feel lucky I was raised that way, and just seem to have the personality for it. But, many do not, or do not feel any reason to question their doctor or the hospital.

And then after the fact, it's even more difficult to have conversations about it, because then you are treading on very sensitive ground - questioning a person's choices or decisions - which isn't the intention, but it's a sensitive subject, and can come off that way. I have a wonderful cousin who is as strong as a horse - whose doctor told her she'd never have babies natrually because her pelvis was just too small and her babies were too big after she had a c-section for an 8 pound baby. This is a woman who's bigger boned than I am and is a healthy marathon runner. After I had a 6 pound baby she said I just 'got lucky' having a small one! I didn't mention that my smaller-boned sister just gave birth to her first - a ten pounder - and no problems witih her apparently small pelvis (she is actually quite narrow).

Doctors stink sometimes! My dad is one, and is in fact, wonderful and can't believe what's happened to the birthing world.


----------



## poetesss (Mar 2, 2006)

I agree, it is sensitive to talk about. First of all, they think we're freaking fools for doing what we do, so they are naturally going to judge anything we say. I have to learn to keep my mouth shut. I will sometimes bring up stuff beforehand, but you can't possibly educate someone yourself on all these issues. It has to come from within. And if the doctor is telling them something, it becomes a matter of "well who the hell are you to tell me otherwise?"

Ugh...I really have to process by focusing on my own awesome births, writing about them, etc. for me to get over this stuff. Esp. now, since I'm so close to the person I'm getting a blow-by-blow account of the hospital ineptitude in action.







I've been wanting to scream all day. I just hope a c/s for "failure to progress" is not the outcome.


----------



## happybunny (Mar 2, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poetesss* 

Ugh...I really have to process by focusing on my own awesome births, writing about them, etc. for me to get over this stuff. Esp. now, since I'm so close to the person I'm getting a blow-by-blow account of the hospital ineptitude in action.







I've been wanting to scream all day. I just hope a c/s for "failure to progress" is not the outcome.









This is exactly what happened to me. I was updated as things progressed and I could just see where it was going.


----------



## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

i heard one of the worst "conventional" birth stories the other day. a woman i know had a planned repeat c-section. they cut too far and sliced her babies eyelid. they told her it was because her uterus was so thin from the last section scar, and if she hadn't had a section she surely would have ruptured. luckily her baby's eye is fine. could you imagine if they had pressed a little hard with the scalpel? her baby could have lost an eye! the most shocking thing about the story was that she was glad she choose the repeat section, because she would have ruptured. umm yeah....


----------



## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

I find a lot of stories sad and frustrating. "Birth shows" make me









I see and hear women suffering, and it bugs me. I watch those women writhing and gritting their teeth on Pit contractions, on their back in bed, and it makes me so angry at the doctors. Let her up! Let her take a shower or climb in the tub! Let her try different positions for pushing! Stop being condescending and pitying! For heaven's sake, give her a chance before telling her she's got an inadequate uterus and performing major surgery on her!

Yet, I can't say anything to someone personally, because it's viewed as me trying to be "superior" or me being "pie in the sky" about birth.


----------



## kjenkins55 (May 20, 2009)

I spent from 28 weeks on ( when I was diagnosed with PIH) reading these boards and freaking out about how bad my hospital experience was going to be...how awful the nurses would be, about how I'd probably wind up with a section, etc.

And, while I won't argue that our system is greatly flawed, because it truly is- but I had a great experience that I'm thankful for every single day. There are practitioners out there who while they mostly ascribe to the medical model, do really try to help moms have the birth experience they want. My CNM was fantastic, and warned me of all of the possible complications ( which I knew anyway, as soon as I got the diagnosis I was all over the internet researching)..but she knew I'd originally been hoping for a water birth. Many obs would have induced with how my pressure was running but we waited it out and I went in 2, sometimes 3x a week at the end..many times she'd say lets just wait another day or two, see what happens. It ended up my membranes started to rupture and I went into labor on my own!









So, yes, I had an internal monitor, and yes I had pit. It sucked. But my beautiful daughter was born without complication after 5 pushes, with the help of a great midwife and several Labor nurses who worked very hard to help her descend after she got stuck, all to avoid a c-section. My pressure ( thankfully) didn't spike higher, I was up and moving and feeling fantastic mere hours later. Thankfully I can say that not all L/D nurses and ob practitioners are racing to schedule births, and rush to sections at the first sign of anything abnormal.

Sometimes our ' system' works, when used _correctly_..as 'intervention only if needed'.


----------



## Lauren31 (Feb 25, 2008)

I get soooo







when I read facebook status updates like, "ooooh the doctor might induce me at 37 weeks! I want this baby out of me already!" ummm... you are still 3 weeks EARLY!







or the ones where women say "Just hooked up my epidural, now it's time to have a BABY!" ugh. I don't care... All the ones that are about natural child birth automatically has people spouting about how the women is crazy for wanting that and how ridiculous she is putting her down for her decision. It just makes me scratch my head that natural is now the alternative to Childbirth.


----------



## tessie (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lauren31* 
All the ones that are about natural child birth automatically has people spouting about how the women is crazy for wanting that and how ridiculous she is putting her down for her decision.

But it goes both ways. If natural works for you, then that's great. But natural doesn't work for everyone. And some women don't want, or can't have, natural. Using pain relief doesn't automatically make you an uneducated, natural birth hating, fool.

But I agree that inducing at 37 weeks for 'tired of being pregnant' _alone_ is ridiculous.


----------



## emnic77 (Sep 12, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lauren31* 
I get soooo







when I read facebook status updates like, "ooooh the doctor might induce me at 37 weeks! I want this baby out of me already!" ummm... you are still 3 weeks EARLY!

Yes. I've seen a lot of these this year. "The doctor isn't going to let me go past 37 weeks because he says the baby's too big already!" and the like. I have to sit on my hands.


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

I'm totally with you ladies. It's hard to bite your tongue when you want to say something . . . a fine line to walk between letting women find their own way and being an advocate for women and babies.

One of my best friends recently had a baby in Wyoming, where she was pressured to induce at 37 weeks--the baby had not yet turned. She wanted a natural birth; they basically forced her into taking the spinal tap, saying "you won't be able to do it without this", then the doc used FORCEPS to pull her poor little breech boy out. I was sooooo mad. But all I could say was, "I'm glad you're both healthy and recovering well". I felt like if she had been here with me through the pregnancy and I could've been a birth advocate for her, things would've gone differently. But she didn't have anyone there to fight for her, and didn't even know that anything else was a possibility.

And it's so hard to try and stand up for what you want when you're in the hospital, esp as a first time mom, in frickin contractions, and having to FIGHT the staff from the IV, the epi, the fetal monitors, being forced to lay on your back---this was my experience, and I was only at the hospital 30 mins! I did have my natural birth, and I did refuse the monitors/laying on my back. But having to scream NOOO! to these nurses who were looking down their noses at me was REALLY hard. I can only imagine that had I gone in when I first started contractions, how much harder it would've been and how they would have degraded and pressured me the whole time . . .

It's very sad. That is why I am TERRIFIED (I'll admit it, I'm scared) of having to go to the hospital with this one. I just want them to leave me the eff alone!!! I seriously would rather have my baby in our bathtub at home than have to stress out about fighting the docs and nurses at the hosp. I have the feeling that whether we find a hb midwife or not, I'll be staying home as long as possible, meaning that I'd UC before I would choose to go to the hospital for a mainstream birth.

I am praying, just let this go well. Let us be healthy and able to birth at home. Let us pass by all of these horrible, unnecessary complications. Let us reclaim our births.


----------



## poetesss (Mar 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tessie* 
But it goes both ways. If natural works for you, then that's great. But natural doesn't work for everyone. And some women don't want, or can't have, natural. Using pain relief doesn't automatically make you an uneducated, natural birth hating, fool.

But I agree that inducing at 37 weeks for 'tired of being pregnant' _alone_ is ridiculous.

My main point of the OP was in regards to women being pushed around in childbirth, not pain relief. That's a whole 'nother issue, I know moms who had the birth tubs, had all the support, moving, counterpressure, etc., and still got an epi at some point. Point is that they were not pushed into interventions.

Our own family birth just turned out great, luckily there was a super LDN nurse who believed in the mama and helped turn her OP baby (don't OB's give a crap about trying to do that?) so that she could actually finish dilating and then push the baby out. Otherwise the OR was prepped and ready.







If someone in a hospital with a bad OB is lucky to have good LDN nurses, it can be a complete game-changer.


----------



## poetesss (Mar 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero* 

I am praying, just let this go well. Let us be healthy and able to birth at home. Let us pass by all of these horrible, unnecessary complications. Let us reclaim our births.

WORD.

I'm so sorry that you feel stretched and stuck having to worry about a bad hospital experience--I really hope that you are able to make some arrangement in advance for a birth in a place and with a provider you feel comfortable with. No mama should have to fight with anyone during one of the most sacred moments of her life.


----------



## Lauren31 (Feb 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poetesss* 
My main point of the OP was in regards to women being pushed around in childbirth, not pain relief. That's a whole 'nother issue, I know moms who had the birth tubs, had all the support, moving, counterpressure, etc., and still got an epi at some point. Point is that they were not pushed into interventions..

oh this reminds me of a friend who was told at 8 weeks that her baby had died and she had a missed miscarriage after the tech could not find the heart beat on the ultrasound. Her doctor did not even LOOK at the u/s and adviced a D and C. Well... turns out the tech did not know where to look and the woman had a tipped uterus. She declined the D/C and begged the doc for another u/s bc she swore she was still pregnant. Turns out she was and baby was hiding. THEN she let the same hospital talk her into an induced c-section at 38 weeks because her baby was going to be "too big" at 9 lbs 4 oz and low and behold baby comes out about 7 lbs something... right.


----------



## *MamaJen* (Apr 24, 2007)

It bothers me hugely. And I talk about it a lot.


----------



## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

I worry about this but it is sooo hard to talk to people about it, especially first time moms. My cousin is expecting, and she has absolutely no clue. I try to give her some tips/affirmations here and there, but I don't want to impose my experiences or preferences on her, or be a know-it-all.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama~Love* 
And don't get me started on the vain mothers who have a C/S just to get a tummy tuck at the same time, or because it might ruin their sex lives to have a vaginal birth. To put your sex life ahead of your baby's well-being is very selfish!

Also stupid. After my third c/s, I couldn't feel my clitoris for months. If anyone thinks that was beneficial for my sex life, they're off their rockers. For that matter, the fact that most the left side of my abdomen is now numb (and it's starting to look permanent) and I have all kinds of weird phantom pains and numb spots through my lower abdomen and pelvis isn't doing a lot for my sex life, either.


----------



## member234098 (Aug 3, 2002)

I am sorry, Storm Bride. I have read your posts and I know you did not want this.

Few women discuss the permanent damage from repeat surgeries as elective caesareans, and I am always learning.

Adhesions, numbness, fallen organs are real things that women do not imagine.


----------



## jeannineb (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lauren31* 
c-section at 38 weeks because her baby was going to be "too big" at 9 lbs 4 oz and low and behold baby comes out about 7 lbs something... right.









This exact thing happend to someone I know and she is allowing it to happen AGAIN with baby #2, tomorrow as a matter of fact.


----------



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
they cut too far and sliced her babies eyelid. they told her it was because her uterus was so thin from the last section scar, and if she hadn't had a section she surely would have ruptured.

That gets my award for the most creative lie to get out of a lawsuit....


----------



## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

I've gone from pretty judgemental about people doing things differently than I do, to not giving a damn as long as everyone is healthy at the end.

I do have a friend who's pelvis is to small to birth HER husband's babies. But he's 6'4" and built like a linebacker and she's maybe 5' even. Her babies were 12lbs even and 12lbs. 2oz, no GD, just big babies. Neither ever engaged because her pelvis is just to small for that size baby.

And after I almost bled to death at my home birth, I totally see why people wouldn't want to choose that! I'm pregnant again now and am choosing to be in the hospital where the happy blood products live









And not every hospital birth is "rough" or "in-humane." They're just different from what you would want and that's okay.


----------



## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

Maybe it depends on where you live and the hospitals attitude towards birth? I've had 3 great hospital births that were drug-free and I never felt like I was pushed around.

I'm going to have another one here any day now, and am very comfortable with the hospital staff and my birth plan.

I've known people who have had elective C/S and although this seems crazy to me, it is their choice...


----------



## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

I totally agree with the OP. I'm part of another birth club and they're pretty mainstream (not all mommies, but alot of them). During the end of pregnancy I've tended to shy away from them and only really offer helpful advice to the ones that would like it. Some say "well I trust my doctor" and that makes me sick. IMO the root of trust should be with your own body and birth attendants should you choose to have them.

I'm 19 years old. I have a fellow 19yr old cousin who had her baby boy via ceserean on Thanksgiving. Why? Induction before her due date because she was "done". Pit induction- her cervix was not ripe at all as she wasn't even at her due date and she's a FTM with no pre-birth prep. No excercises, she hadn't ever heard of a birth ball, etc. Her labor "stalled" after they had broken her waters and they sectioned her because she wasn't on their schedule.

Today MIL and I were talking and she asked me why I went with midwives this time around for my prenatal care (she doesn't know I'm UCing yet though). I explained it to her and she told me about how her mother (who had MIL at home with a midwife in Mexico) thinks that natural birth and midwives in the US are silly because we have access to all of these wonderful hospitals that do all of the work for you. Um.. I really had no comment on that, I think I'd have went off.


----------



## aims1029 (Aug 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Serenyd* 
Esp when it's something stupid, like a c-section for a first-time mom because her baby is going to be "huge" and when it's born it's only 7 or 8 lbs.... those _really_ bother me.


This was me with DD. I was induced at 39 weeks because she was going to be HUGE. She was 7 lbs 4 oz. When I was pregnant with her I educated myself on breastfeeding, diapering, circ, etc. but for some reason I left out the actual birth. I didn't become a birth junkie until after DD was born. I wish that someone would have taken me aside and educated me while I was still pregnant with her, even if it might have offended me at the time.

My mom sees my OB all the time because she is a post-op nurse and takes care of his hysterectomies and other surgical patients. They talk a lot and it drives him crazy that I am "endangering" my baby by having a home birth this time around. My mom has been standing up to him and some OB nurses about my decision and has quoted some studies about the safety of home birth







. He finally admitted to her that there is a 99% chance that everything will be fine but he is afraid of the 1%.


----------



## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama~Love* 
About educating women.....some really don't care! I mean, they care about their babies, but think that Dr.'s "know what's best" and will do anything & everything they say, without a single thought about it. They'd rather be decorating the nursery, buying expensive needless junk, or coordinating their baby's wardrobe. Sad but true.

How could someone NOT care how their baby enters the world, and where? *And don't get me started on the vain mothers who have a C/S just to get a* *tummy tuck at the same time*, or because it might ruin their sex lives to have a vaginal birth. To put your sex life ahead of your baby's well-being is very selfish!


If I have another baby, it is going to be by c-section, and I'm one of those vain mothers who would love to have a tummy tuck at the same time.







But from all my reasearch and talking with OBs, the c-tuck is just a myth. What many people think is a c-tuck is actually just removing extra scar tissue.

http://www.docshop.com/video/docshop...-patrol-c-tuck

http://www.thecradle.com/cradlepopculture_2fer

Now, I guess it is possible for it to have happened, but I hardly think it is common. I think it is more likely just a internet rumor and people who claim they had it done really just had scar tissue removed to make their stomach flatter.


----------



## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carmel23* 

I've known people who have had elective C/S and although this seems crazy to me, it is their choice...

my problem with elective c-sections is that they are dangerous for the baby. if babies weren't 4x more likely to die after an elective c-section then i wouldn't really have a _moral_ issue with. i don't have a problem with elective surgeries, but there are two lives involved with a c-section. so it may be a woman's choice, but her baby could suffer the consequences. i doubt that many women truly understand the risks.


----------



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

In one ground-breaking survey, 0.08% of respondents (one woman out of 1314) stated that they would get a cesarean without any medical indication. Anecdotes about "vanity c-sections" are just that--anecdotes. They are definitely the exception and not the norm.


----------



## GoldmanBaby09 (Apr 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Turquesa* 
In one ground-breaking survey, 0.08% of respondents (one woman out of 1314) stated that they would get a cesarean without any medical indication. Anecdotes about "vanity c-sections" are just that--anecdotes. They are definitely the exception and not the norm.


That Listening to the Mothers survey is very interesting. I think the "vanity c/s" is mostly perpetuated by the obstetric community and not by mothers, themselves, as outlined here. I also thought this was very interesting:

Quote:

Listening to Mothers II asked participants whether they had experienced pressure from a health professional to undergo some childbirth procedures. Nine percent of the mothers reported experiencing pressure to have a cesarean. This pressure from professionals to have a cesarean vastly outweighs the pressure from mothers to have one. A full 25% of women who had a cesarean reported experiencing such pressure, whereas just 2% of mothers who gave birth vaginally did so.
A quarter of the women who had c/s felt pressure to do so from their doctor. The most common reasons listed for c/s:

Quote:

The most common reasons cited were concerns about fetal distress, position of baby, size of baby, and prolonged labor.
Hmm, I would be willing to bet that fetal distress is linked to pit usage, "prolonged" labor is a relative term, and that more could be done about baby positioning earlier in pregnancy, but it is easier just to cut the baby out than for an OB to work with a mom on ensuring optimal fetal positioning.


----------



## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poetesss* 
...I just can't seem to brush it off, ignore it, not let it bother me.











Quote:

I have to learn to let go and let live, but somehow I am very sensitive to these things










Quote:

and hearing about these type of births makes me ache, wishing we had a better system.


















I feel the.exact.same.way. I sometimes feel sadness, but generally exasperation & anger. I feel a compulsion, that I sometimes feel I can't even control, to want to SCREAM FROM THE ROOFTOPS, "Get educated! Don't blindly trust your OB!" etc. etc. It's a sickness, practically for me.

Try to help if you can. You can volunteer with CIMS - coalition for Improving maternity services.


----------



## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama~Love* 
About educating women.....some really don't care! I mean, they care about their babies, but think that Dr.'s "know what's best" and will do anything & everything they say, without a single thought about it.

What's particularly weird to me, is that I see this behavior in otherwise well-educated, otherwise-smart women. I find it odd.

I told some co-workers of mine how I had originally thought, "OF COURSE I'll get an epidural! Why go through all that pain if you don't have to?!" Then I learned THE TRUTH! I switched to midwives at 22 weeks along & ended up with an awesome natural birth.

Nearly a year later when they were PG, I encouraged them to at least see the movie BoBB. Offered to loan my copy of Thinking woman's guide, "Pushed" and "Born in the USA." Nope. Not interested!

Near her due date, I overheard her on the phone saying, "Oh no no, I'm not interested in natural birth! Why go through all that pain if you don't have to?! No shame in that."

OK, OK, fine. The drive to avoid pain is human & perfectly understandable. But you could at least get a LITTLE educated on everything else!! Nope. No desire to do so.

At least, with this one woman, it *seemed to me like once she decided she didn't want to feel birth (wanted an epi) then she was placing the whole experience into her doc's hands. Therefore, she chose to trust her doc fully & not bother to get educated on it.* If you're not going to physically feel it, then you can't really be in control of the experience anyway, so you might as well leave it all up to your doc. ***

Really sad.









***I know this is NOT the truth! You can absolutely have an empowering birth with an epi and STILL can make a lot of your own decisions!! But, _my personal perception_ is that perhaps this is the mindset of women & why they blindly trust OBs.


----------



## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

i think a lot of women view labor as something that happens to them, not something that their bodies do naturally. it's as though it is a disease that needs medical attention, rather than a normal biological process. they don't understand the complexities of the hormones and the muscles involved. not to mention the psychology. it's very hard for people to believe that their bodies will know what to do. the other thing is that a lot of women who have given birth don't have a clue about what was done to them and why. those women tell their birth stories and perpetuate myths about childbirth. i very often hear women who've had c-sections say that their babies just wouldn't come out. i hear this over and over again. i don't understand what that means. does it means that the baby was malpositioned, or induced and not cooperating? or that your baby is just an ornery little thing who is refusing to budge? what a lot of these women don't understand is that what really happened was that their birth hour glass ran out of sand. ob's don't have all day to wait for nature to do it's job. now don't get me wrong, there are some very legitimate reasons for c-sections out there. i for one am very thankful that my baby could be safely brought to earth side in a matter of minutes. i also know that the real chance of me needing to be sectioned is much lower than the 30% c-section rate would lead us to believe.


----------



## tessie (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
my problem with elective c-sections is that they are dangerous for the baby. if babies weren't 4x more likely to die after an elective c-section then i wouldn't really have a _moral_ issue with. i don't have a problem with elective surgeries, but there are two lives involved with a c-section. so it may be a woman's choice, but her baby could suffer the consequences. i doubt that many women truly understand the risks.

An elective section is (at least where I live) a section that isn't an emergency one. Having one because the baby is breech is elective, having one because you have complete placenta previa is elective. It's very, very rare on the NHS that you get to choose to have a section without a medical reason.

So, whilst the risk to a baby is greater from having an elective section, the risk of not having one may well be considerably greater. And yes, I realise that you can have a successful vaginal breech birth but vaginal breech with a midwife with no experience in breech births is risky.


----------



## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

i think there are many more c-sections done in this country for completely non medical reasons than you might think. i have heard of many women having c-sections because the doctor deems their baby too big. drs will also perform sections to prevent pelvic floor disorders. in fact, i am almost positive that a woman in my family is going to have an electice c-section. she's 20 weeks pregnant, and not breech to my knowledge. i think she's just scared of going into labor and ending up with a c-section anyway. her chances are 1 in 3 afterall. i think that c-sections should be scheduled if it is safer than vaginal birth.


----------



## tessie (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
i think there are many more c-sections done in this country for completely non medical reasons than you might think. i have heard of many women having c-sections because the doctor deems their baby too big. drs will also perform sections to prevent pelvic floor disorders. in fact, i am almost positive that a woman in my family is going to have an electice c-section. she's 20 weeks pregnant, and not breech to my knowledge. i think she's just scared of going into labor and ending up with a c-section anyway. her chances are 1 in 3 afterall. i think that c-sections should be scheduled if it is safer than vaginal birth.

She's having a section because she's scared she'll have to have a section? Must be more to it than that (even if the baby is breech at 20 weeks it wouldn't be an issue, as I'm sure you must be aware).

And previous severe pelvic injuries can be a valid reason for an elective section. As can a history of severe tearing. I don't think it's fair to judge other women for having an elective section if you aren't privy to their medical history.

Complete anecdata but I know of one woman who chose to have a section on the NHS for a non medical (physical) reason. And she had psychological reasons (I think there was a history of abuse).


----------



## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

alot of it is anecdotal for sure. however, there are a lot of articles about the rise of elective c-sections out there. in fact i was considering having one myself after i had a severe tear and pelvic organ prolapse following my daughter's birth. that's when i started doing research into elective c-sections. the truth is that they really are quite dangerous. i've also discovered that 87% of women suffer from mild prolapse six months after they give birth, which is interesting since i thought that i would have to have surgery to correct something that is perfectly normal. that's a different story though. i'm not trying to be judgemental about other people's choices. i just think that they should be informed of the risks associated with those choices.


----------



## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

Tell me about it. A girl I went to high school with recently had a baby. She went into preterm labor at about 31 weeks, and was on bed rest until 36 weeks. Her doctor had her doing every natural thing out there to bring on labor at 36 weeks! Finally, she was induced at 39 weeks. I just don't get it...frantically work to keep baby in, and then force her out before she's ready?


----------



## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
i think that c-sections should be scheduled if it is safer than vaginal birth.

It isn't really clear that this is the case though. There is some good evidence that even when someone knows she will have a section, waiting until labour starts to do it is better for the baby, as long as starting labour itself isn't actually the problem.


----------



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
What's particularly weird to me, is that I see this behavior in otherwise well-educated, otherwise-smart women. I find it odd.

I know, right? What's up with that. Here are some of the competent, educated moms at my play group:

* Two were successfully convinced by their doctors that "I just can't bear babies normally. My pelvis is too small." OK, one of them is a size 10 at her *healthy, slim weight.* The other is overweight but even at her skinniest would clearly not be some frail, petite thing with rickets. I just don't get it.









* Another was saying, "The nurse said that my glucose levels were pre-gestational diabetes. She said that if I don't get it under control, I have to do another screening on Monday." Um, honey? You don't have to do _*anything*_ you don't want to.

Short of sounding like a missionary, I don't really know what to do. I usually slip in comments diplomatically, opening them with, "Well, just to play devil's advocate, there are other doctors who say..."

It's frustrating because you wonder how we can change the System when there's so much complicity toward it. But in reality, once people have written their narrative (e.g. "I needed my cesarean. I'm too small to have babies"), you don't get to step in and rewrite it for them. You just have to hope and pray that they one day get exposed to the right information and come around on their own.


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poetesss* 
WORD.

I'm so sorry that you feel stretched and stuck having to worry about a bad hospital experience--I really hope that you are able to make some arrangement in advance for a birth in a place and with a provider you feel comfortable with. No mama should have to fight with anyone during one of the most sacred moments of her life.









Thank you, poetesss.

I just feel really strongly that it's going to work out just right for this baby and birth.

We hope to find a midwife who will respect our choices, but if we feel comfortable at the time having the baby without a midwife present, then we will.

It's going to be okay. Everybody! We're going to be just fine. All us mamas, and our babies!









Even if we head to the hospital at the last minute, pushing, like I did with dd, it will be all right. Maybe not ideal, but a safe, healthy baby is the ideal. As long as we get that, then I'll be okay with whatever it takes to get there.







BUT I really hope that we can do it without the hospital this time!


----------



## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
i think there are many more c-sections done in this country for completely non medical reasons than you might think. i have heard of many women having c-sections because the doctor deems their baby too big.

Well, your previous post said "if babies weren't 4x more likely to die after an elective c-section then i wouldn't really have a moral issue with."

Just out of curiosity, do you have a "moral issue" with the _woman_ for choosing the CS, or the _doctor_ for pushing/encouraging/granting it?

Personally, I place a LOT more blame with the doc! Sure, he legally has to tell her the risks of CS, but it _is_ more risky for the mom than the baby. Whereas the risks of birthing a big baby include shoulder dystocia, which can lead to oxygen deprivation & brain damage, or erbs palsy.

If you were a Mom & told you could risk brain damage with vaginal birth, or CS & risk breathing problems (Which can be resolved with assistance in NICU), *you would think the CS is making the best choice for your baby.* (Cuz that's what your doc wants you to believe.)

For example, research shows if women are informed of REAL risks & encouraged, more will try for VBAC vs. opting for ERCS. & as we all know, so many women blindly trust their OB - _so I think it's safe to say that in many cases like this, the "Elective" CS was really the OB's choice._

& finally, I TOTALLY understand how people want to just plan a CS in the first place vs. "trying" for vaginal & then ending up with CS anyway.

In terms of a positive birth experience, women feel most satisfied & empowered with birth if they have a sense of control & can make their own choices. Even if it means a totally medicalized, high-tech birth. I think that's logical.

Whereas if you chose vaginal & end up with CS anyway (bearing in mind there's a more than 32% chance you WILL get the CS), you:
1. lose out on getting to schedule it
2. deal with the pain of labor for nothing**
3. Feel like you "failed" since you tried for vaginal & didn't get it
4. Have to worry about _damaging your baby by attempting the vaginal birth_ if the CS was for "fetal distress" (which we know happens all too frequently due to typical "active management" with AROM, pit, tied down to bed on your back, etc.)

**_WE_, here on MDC know there is value in laboring for a while before CS, but the average mama doesn't & I'd bet the average OB doesn't tell her about this little benefit.


----------



## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

i think the morality should be in the hands of the surgeon. doctors should not do more harm than good. they need to be honest about the risks involved with c-sections. of course, while the risks of c-sections are higher than vaginal births, neither are terribly dangerous. i think that's why people don't think that having sections are such a big deal. their babies may face worse odds, but the chance of everything being fine is still very, very high.


----------



## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

you should check out the book "Deliver This!" by Marisa Cohen. the author discusses all the different types of birth choices. there is a whole chapter on the growing trend of preplanned c-sections. the women interviewed had to jump through a lot of hoops to get their medically unnecessary c-sections. one of them had to seen by a psychiatrist. i'm just saying that i believe that there are some women who choose c-sections over vaginal birth, for non medical reasons.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Elective c-sections without medical cause baffle me. How come if i go to the doc and demand insulin (i'm not diabetic, but hey, maybe i just want some!) they will say no, but a c-section "ok sure, let's get the diaries out and make a date!"...ermmm what? I'm in the UK though, where to be fair it is getting increasingly difficult to get an elective section. Every woman i know who had has had one is routinely offered VBAC next time around, unless there was something that won't have changed which made the last one a c-section.

I DO think non-emergency c-sections should be an option, i have a friend who had a terrible birth with #1 which ended in botched forceps delivery, vaginal haematoma requiring surgery 3 times, 15 units of transfused blood and a 3 days stay in ICU for her, and permanent scarring from the forceps for her DS. She also had an episiotomy cut so deep her glute needed stitching afterwards and a post-partum prolapse which took months to resolve. It was 4 months before she could stand and walk without pain and she still has pain during intercourse even now (4 years on). Of course ideally i'd like her midwife at that birth to have supported her instead of ignoring her until she was so scared and in so much pain that an epidural was the only thing that could help her. I'd like to have held her hand, massaged her back, helped her move and sat in the bath/shower room with her so she never needed the epidural which resulted in DTA, foetal distress and forceps delivery. But given i wasn't there, and she's already been through all that, i don't blame her for booking her elective section at 39 weeks, and i applaud that she's prepared for a VBAC "just in case babe decides to come early". Doctors need to be made accountable for the misinformation they spread and the damage they cause to women and babies. The "interfere until it's all going horribly wrong and then step in and Save The Day" model of care is simply Not Good Enough.


----------



## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
Elective c-sections without medical cause baffle me. How come if i go to the doc and demand insulin (i'm not diabetic, but hey, maybe i just want some!) they will say no, but a c-section "ok sure, let's get the diaries out and make a date!"...ermmm what? I'm in the UK though, where to be fair it is getting increasingly difficult to get an elective section. Every woman i know who had has had one is routinely offered VBAC next time around, unless there was something that won't have changed which made the last one a c-section.

I DO think non-emergency c-sections should be an option, i have a friend who had a terrible birth with #1 which ended in botched forceps delivery, vaginal haematoma requiring surgery 3 times, 15 units of transfused blood and a 3 days stay in ICU for her, and permanent scarring from the forceps for her DS. She also had an episiotomy cut so deep her glute needed stitching afterwards and a post-partum prolapse which took months to resolve. It was 4 months before she could stand and walk without pain and she still has pain during intercourse even now (4 years on). Of course ideally i'd like her midwife at that birth to have supported her instead of ignoring her until she was so scared and in so much pain that an epidural was the only thing that could help her. I'd like to have held her hand, massaged her back, helped her move and sat in the bath/shower room with her so she never needed the epidural which resulted in DTA, foetal distress and forceps delivery. But given i wasn't there, and she's already been through all that, i don't blame her for booking her elective section at 39 weeks, and i applaud that she's prepared for a VBAC "just in case babe decides to come early". Doctors need to be made accountable for the misinformation they spread and the damage they cause to women and babies. The "interfere until it's all going horribly wrong and then step in and Save The Day" model of care is simply Not Good Enough.

i completely agree


----------



## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
Elective c-sections without medical cause baffle me. How come if i go to the doc and demand insulin (i'm not diabetic, but hey, maybe i just want some!) they will say no, but a c-section "ok sure, let's get the diaries out and make a date!"...ermmm what?

As I think has already been posted earlier in this thread, maternal elective CS with _truly no medical cause_ is actually very rare. (The "Listening to Mothers" survey found, literally, ONE person out of, I think 1,500 who opted for no-medical-cause elective CS.)

I suspect, and others have voiced this as well, that some docs would like us to BELIEVE it's more common than it is - that they are just giving women what we really want with the insane CS rate over over 32%. But the truth is that it is NOT the case.

(Remember though, as far as medical records are concerned, all non-emergency CS are classified "elective" even for really, truly good reasons like complete placenta previa.)

OBs think it's OK to do a CS without cause because it eliminates the dangerous risk of other negative outcomes of attempting vaginal birth. (Since vaginal birth is always an "attempt" since it so often ends up in CS anyway.)

Think of it from an OB's perspective - they see so many bad outcomes. They see birth as risky & dangerous (not to mention a painful, horrific, miserable experience.) at least in the US, *that is all they see!* They don't even REALIZE how their actions cause so much of it. Or, as Dr. Marsden Wagner so eloquently states, "Fish don't see the water they swim in."

Gary Haskins, former President of ACOG, actually said, a CS is safer for BOTH Mom & baby in almost every case. Absolutely sickening & horrifying. I can somewhat understand how some might think CS is safer for baby (even though it's not true), but to say it is always safest for the mother too is INSANE! And this guy was HEADING UP the organization that sets practice standards for obstetrics in the US. Clearly, there is a lot of distorted thinking going on & an appalling lack of knowledge.

From the perspective of the average American OB, your analogy of giving a non-diabetic insulin is totally inapplicable. Because vaginal birth is risky anyway. (Whereas _not_ taking insulin, for a person with a well-functioning pancreas, is not a risky action.)

Obviously *I* don't believe vaginal birth is so risky & purely-elective CS is a reasonable option, I'm just saying, intellectually, I _understand_ where OBs are coming from in granting elective CS. It's awful, but I can understand why it's happening.









Oh, and this is all to say nothing of other advantages to CS like getting to schedule it so:
-no need to be at the hospital on weekends
-no need to be at the hospital in the middle of the night
-no need to wait around for hours just to be paid the same amount anyway

-I believe many OBs are actually paid MORE for doing a CS

-protection against malpractice (Many have admitted, "You're sued for the CS you did not to, but not sued for the CS you DID perform. Since a damaged baby is the worst possible outcome - doing a CS is doing 'everything you can' to ensure a healthy baby.")
etc.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:

From the perspective of the average American OB, your analogy of giving a non-diabetic insulin is totally inapplicable. Because vaginal birth is risky anyway. (Whereas not taking insulin, for a person with a well-functioning pancreas, is not a risky action.)
I understand but i don't sympathise. Their job is NOT to give women care based on their own anecdotal experience or opinion, their job is to give best-practice, evidence-based care to all women. They should not be permitted to ADD risk. Their oath:

Quote:

I SWEAR in the presence of the Almighty and before my family, my teachers and my peers that according to my ability and judgment I will keep this Oath and Stipulation.
TO RECKON all who have taught me this art equally dear to me as my parents and in the same spirit and dedication to impart a knowledge of the art of medicine to others. *I will continue with diligence to keep abreast of advances in medicine*. I will treat without exception all who seek my ministrations, so long as the treatment of others is not compromised thereby, and *I will seek the counsel of particularly skilled physicians where indicated for the benefit of my patient*.
I WILL FOLLOW that method of treatment which according to my ability and judgment, *I consider for the benefit of my patient and abstain from whatever is harmful* or mischievous. I will neither prescribe nor administer a lethal dose of medicine to any patient even if asked nor counsel any such thing nor perform the utmost respect for every human life from fertilization to natural death and reject abortion that deliberately takes a unique human life.
WITH PURITY, HOLINESS AND BENEFICENCE I will pass my life and practice my art. Except for the prudent correction of an imminent danger, *I will neither treat any patient nor carry out any research on any human being without the valid informed consent of the subject* or the appropriate legal protector thereof, understanding that research must have as its purpose the furtherance of the health of that individual. Into whatever patient setting I enter, I will go for the benefit of the sick and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief or corruption and further from the seduction of any patient.
WHATEVER IN CONNECTION with my professional practice or not in connection with it I may see or hear in the lives of my patients which ought not be spoken abroad, I will not divulge, reckoning that all such should be kept secret.
WHILE I CONTINUE to keep this Oath unviolated may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art and science of medicine with the blessing of the Almighty and respected by my peers and society, but should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot.
Bolding mine. This is what is promised, and it is NOT what is delivered.

As for "no medical reason" that's debatable - the friend i mentioned before was considering a section anyway, after her first birth, but when she went for the initial ob consult, before she even spoke, he began counting her blood transfusions aloud, flipping dramatically through her notes, and then told her how many litres she actually lost (more than they replaced of course). THEN he asked if she wanted to "risk another try". There is nothing to say a second vaginal birth would end like her first one did, and he admitted this when she actually asked him, but quickly followed up with a grim "but we can offer no assurances that it WON'T end up the same way...." and then a long heavy silence. I actually think rather a lot of women having a section for a non-medical reason have been convinced that there IS a medical reason by a scaremongering and unscrupulous ob. That was my point with the insulin - no doctor would get away with convincing non-diabetics it would be safer for them to take the insulin, whether they asked for it or not!


----------



## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
I understand but i don't sympathise.










Yeah, I'm with you there.

Out of curiosity, what is that "oath" from?


----------



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 








Yeah, I'm with you there.

Out of curiosity, what is that "oath" from?

It's the Hippocratic Oath dating back to ancient Greece. Most but not all doctors take it to express a commitment to ethical practice. Obviously, not all follow it.

ETA: Thanks to the PP for posting this. We need it as a continual reminder of what to expect as health care clients/consumer.


----------



## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Turquesa* 
It's the Hippocratic Oath dating back to ancient Greece.

Right after I asked, I realized that is probably what it was, but I was surprised by how religious it was, & the statement not to perform abortion. I was thinking it must not be the oath docs take in the US today, since abortion is legal & we are a secular nation.
Sure enough, there is a modern version (the Wikipedia page) had a link to it that is different.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

whoops, i think that IS the modern version...? Doctors are still able to refuse abortion or euthanasia on moral grounds, and i have seen them quoted (in news articles) as citing their oath as their reasoning. I have also read that not all doctors are REQUIRED to take the hippocratic oath anymore. I did NOT know that!


----------



## Lauren31 (Feb 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 

**_WE_, here on MDC know there is value in laboring for a while before CS, but the average mama doesn't & I'd bet the average OB doesn't tell her about this little benefit.

What is the value in it? Personally, I think I would be pretty sad and upset if heaven forbid I have to have an emergency C-section.


----------



## MamaMelis (Oct 23, 2009)

I might have written something like this several years ago, before experiencing my own birth gone awry. Now I have a much more open mind.

These days, my feelings on the subject are pushing me to get recertified as a doula and get back into the world of birth (both on the breastfeeding side and the PP doula side). I WANT fervently to volunteer as a doula at a "mainstream" hospital. So many women don't have the luxury, the knowledge or the support systems (let alone the $4000 or even the luck of having a homebirth midwife in their area) and are laboring alone in hospitals. Rather that judge and lament them and their choices, I have decided that I have a responsibility to actually DO something to help them. I find that positive action is so much better received that passive judgement/anger.


----------



## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lauren31* 
What is the value in it? Personally, I think I would be pretty sad and upset if heaven forbid I have to have an emergency C-section.

You can still have "planned" section, and just wait for labour to begin to have it, if required. THe reason hospitals and doctors don't want to do this is it is inconvienient for them. The vast majority of unplanned sections are not emergencies anyway, it can take them an hour (or more) to get the patienmt into the ER, which means that it isn't actually an emergency.

As for the benefits of this: For one thing, it means the baby is ready to appear. Doctors often mess up due dates, and late premature babies are a lot more common than they used to be. U/S and measurements, or even the last date of menstruation, are NOT accurate as doctors will have people believe, they still are estimates. The only really accurate way to give a good due date (which is still going to vary) is to know the actual date of ovulation. Not to mention the way doctors count the days of pregnancy is pretty much wrong.

And then if you go into labour, your body has begun the chemical and hormonal processes of birth, which are actually important to you and your baby. Just as an example, they process of the mom's body making milk depends on those chemical interactions. When you don't even begin them, there is a much greater likelihood of problems, with breastfeeding, some people think with ppd, etc. On the non-human side, animals given c-sections without labour will not take care of their babies - all of which suggests we underestimate the importance of these interactions. We know we don't totally understand them.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Labour brings about multiple hormonal and physiological events in the baby which make it far better prepared for life outside the womb. For starters labour usually doesn't begin until the lungs are mature, so you can be much surer of that if you wait for labour than if you wait for an arbitrary number of weeks to have passed from supposed conception. In addition labour brings about oxytocin and stress hormone production in the baby, the first help it to begin immediate bonding and the latter makes it more primed to breathe, switch to pulmonary circulation and be awake and alert enough to suckle immediately. The squeezing action of labour also stimulates the baby's general reflexive responses and pushes some of the fluid from its lungs (not as much as vaginal birth can but certainly more than surgery will) which means those that don't have terribly distressing births or receive drugs through the placenta arrive alert and awake and stay that way for an hour or two after the birth, incredibly important learning and bonding time for the motherbabe.

SOME babies born by c-section before labour are able to adjust very well. Many others struggle with their breathing and need suctioning and sometimes time in SCBU. Many of those who are physically ok suffer with excessive sleepiness, lack of interest in feeding, and bonding issues (due to sleeping all the time and not feeding). Mothers are often made to feel guilty for not bonding with their baby, whatever the mode of birth, but it is actually much harder to bond with a sleepy unresponsive baby who isn't interested in feeding and doesn't seem to "connect" than to a normal vigorous newborn which arrives primed for breathing, feeding and bonding. Most women are not warned of this before their csection - they are told about the physical risks of surgery. There is much to be said for the baby and the mother for waiting for labour, but for the Ob it means he might be in the OR at 3am, which is why many don't want to go for it.


----------



## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
You can still have "planned" section, and just wait for labour to begin to have it, if required.

Yes, that is what I was referring to in terms of "value" in laboring first.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
As for the benefits of this: For one thing, it means the baby is ready to appear. ...The only really accurate way to give a good due date (which is still going to vary) is to know the actual date of ovulation.

Even still, even if you know the exact date of conception, 40W gestation may honestly not be enough for some babies! Whereas it may actually be TOO MUCH for another baby! (Friend of mine had her baby in a great, fast HB last month. She was 37W1D & the MW said the placenta was already starting to calcify & age! He was ready then, 40W would probably have been too long for him.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
And then if you go into labour, your body has begun the chemical and hormonal processes of birth, which are actually important to you and your baby. ... all of which suggests we underestimate the importance of these interactions. We know we don't totally understand them.


----------

