# Belief in a no pain labor/birth?



## SuperMoM2GTO (Dec 13, 2006)

I am reading a book now (Ina May's guide to childbirth) and it basically says (not exact words) that birth is only as painful as you think it will be. Well with DS, I totally believed he was just going to "fall out" and birth was not going to be painful. Long story short, it was painful.

Now this was a long time before I started reading this book (and hearing the idea that if you believe its not painful, it wont be) I still dont think it should be painful and think the reason I experienced pain last time was because I was induced. I believe that allowed to labor naturally, it wouldn't be painful. Am I right in thinking this? Or do I need to reevaluate my birth plan?


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## myfairbabies (Jun 4, 2006)

You should look into hypnobirthing or hypnobabies. Their belief is that childbirth without fear is childbirth without pain (basically, I think, but it of course goes deeper than that). I wouldn't discount it without looking into it. There are a lot of woman that have had pain free natural births.


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

I consider my births to have been pain-free. Not that I was sitting eating a lollipop and drinking mimosas; the contractions were HARD WORK...but not painful for me. It was "uncomfortable" but not painful.

FYI, I was raised by a mother who experienced an estatic birth with my sister. So, not only was I raised believing that natural birth was hard work (but doable), birth could actually be intensely pleasurable. I believe this shaped the way I approached birth and in turn, the way I experienced it.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

I don't believe it. I'm a labor Doula and a firm supporter of natural childbirth and I've had two natural childbirths but there was pain. The second one was more painful than the first. It was very intense and lots of back pain, I think it was because of DS's position (hand on back of head). I wish I were one of those women who had an ecstatic birth!


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## e.naomisandoval (Aug 30, 2005)

I absolutely belileve it. I read a lot of wonderful books such as this while pg and. Maybe it was Laura Shanley (???) who said that some cultures don't have the belief that that labor is painful, and so it isn't. We have no other ideas, and so mostly it is. My first was so scary and painful, my 2nd so much less so. Still pain, yes, but maybe that was because I couldn't completely let go of the idea. Then again, Laura had all pain-free births. Perhaps some women just experience no pain and others will. I have heard women say there was no pain in their births.


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## crsta33 (Oct 13, 2004)

I think some women give birth with little to no pain and other don't. We are all so different and there's probably a million reasons why is hurts so much or doesn't hurt much at all.

I really liked Baby Catcher by Peggy Vincent...she talks about how she thought if you "did it right" there wouldn't be pain...her first birth was incredibly painful, her 2nd no pain until the very end. She thought she figured out painless childbirth, until she had her 3rd.

I wanted to be quiet and dignified in labor b/c I saw a video where the laboring woman was so calm and it was such a beautiful birth and I knew it was possible and I wanted to do it that way, but that's not how I handle labor. I make alot of undignified noise when I labor and push, but really that's okay b/c it's much better to honor who I am than to try to reach some "ideal" birth by being someone I'm not.

Christa


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## mothragirl (Sep 10, 2005)

i don't believe it and i think it is a bad expectation to have. some women do have painless births. some women orgasm during birth. that doesn't mean everyone will. i think you can relax and accept the pain that you do have and not let it overwhelm you, but to say that every woman can potentially have a painless birth is false IMO.


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## maryjane (Jul 13, 2004)

I've had two pain-med free births (both in a hospital with a m/w attending). The first was definitely painful. I was *begging* for the epidural, and, without my doula, I surely would have succumb. For my second birth, I used hypnobirthing -- there are no courses where I live, so I was self-taught with a CD and the book. I would say that my labor was pain-free until the last 1/2 centimeter and pushing (about 20 minutes total). I think it was a combination of factors: (1) I wasn't afraid of the experience (whereas I was deathly afraid with my first), (2) I had an "easy" and short labor, (3) I practiced the hypnobirthing imagary and breathing techniques.

I NEVER in a million years would have thought a pain-free birth was possible. But it was for me!


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## maryjane (Jul 13, 2004)

What's an "ecstatic birth"? (Sorry if that is a stupid question.)


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Not a stupid question!!! It's when you actually experience orgasm during birth.

I wish I was one who could have one too!!! (I know it's possible, but seems SO far away from what I experienced, I really can't imagine other than my mom explaining what she felt....).


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

I dunno. Your cervix is dilating, your uterus is trying to expel its contents, and a baby's head is being squeezed through your birth canal. I can't imagine that it would be pain-free. There's gotta be some discomfort there. I think that is natural, and for it to be pain-free (though there are degrees of pain) would be unnatural.


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## CMcC (Sep 9, 2006)

I love this article: http://www.compleatmother.com/articl...ain_free.shtml
*
(If you only read positive birth stories, don't read the following cesarean birth experience.)*
There is a real connection between what we believe and pain (or lack of). I've experinced it first hand. I had a 60 hour drug-free natural labor. I never percieved it as pain, my biggest complaint that I was absolutely and completly exhausted. It was more than uncomfortable at times, but I wouldn't call it pain. Not sure there is a good word to describe it. Most of that labor was also back labor which was made things more difficult. But like I said, I wouldn't call it pain. Unfortuely, my DD was unable to drop (because of the cord) and after 60 hours of labor and making it to 9+ cm... I agreed to a cesarean birth. When I agreed (to the cesarean birth) and lost all hope in getting my natural VBAC.... I have never felt pain that intense in my entire life. I was in complete agony!!! It wasn't because I was in a different stage of labor, the only thing that had changed was my hope and belief that I was going to be able to have my baby naturally. So in my experience, one minute I was dealing with labor well, then after all hope of getting my VBAC was gone, I was in complete agony. The mind plays a big role in how we deal with labor/ birth.

The mind is the difference between pain and suffering. What happens when you stub your toe? Obviously, your toe is hurt (but most likely not seriously hurt). Most people will grab their toe or "shake off the pain". Some will hop up and down and may say a few words. Well, when you hurt your toe and you grab it (shake it, etc), you are using physical measures to counter the pain. It's your body's automatic response to dealing with pain. You can usually get the pain under control by using these measures, and it soon becomes an uncomfortable sensation rather than pain. But have you ever been around a person who carries on and just swears it's the worst pain of their life and they are convinced they're going to die from the pain? This person is suffering...it's not just pain anymore. They're making the pain much worse....and much harder to deal with. This same principle applies to childbirth. You need to deal/ work with your body during childbirth to make it tolerable. When you fight it and believe you can't do it...you're working against your body making it more painful than it really is. Tensing your body will always make things more painful (remember the shaking the pain off when you stub your toe makes your muscles more limp and less tense). So prepare and have many different pain relieving techniques available to use during labor/birth. (Birthing From Within, my DH and doula made mt labor tolerable.) Staying positive and confident is a must...not only for the mother, but her birthing team as well. The birthing team should be supportive, encouraging, and knowledgeable.


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

I had a VBAC last week...I can honestly say it was "pain" free. But it was not "discomfort" free or effortless. DD2 did not just fall out, my body didn't push her out on it's own, and it's not the way I would have choosen to spend a random afternoon!









However I know it was pain free since the birth ended in shoulder dystocia and a 4th degree tear...and the local pain med they used during the repair didn't "take" completely. So I felt a lot of the suturing. And THAT was painful. VERY painful. Nothing at all like the discomfort of labor and birth.

So yes, I think different women have different birth experiences and the same woman can have different experiences in different births. It's a complex physical and emotional dance! And it's important to know that there isn't a "right" way or a "wrong" way...it's all about being flexible and working with the birth you are having instead of focusing on the birth experience you didn't.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

I believe it is possible for some women. After all, mamas in this very thread have had the experience. I do not believe it is possible for me. I am hypersensitive to any stimulus, and that is what makes me up. Heat bothers me a lot more than others, tiredness bothers me a lot more than others, and pain affects me a lot more than others too. Given biological differences we all have (and who can deny those?), consider the pain perception process. Yes, it is mental, but there is also a physiological factor and our myelin sheaths are more or less effective, our nervous systems are all different, and our brain chemical levels all vary.
We do not all experience any sensation the same way; pain is no different and I have learned that I am sensitive and experience pain with more intensity than others in similar situations. Plus, our bodies all labour and birth differently. Some births are actually easier than others--shorter, more efficient. Our bodies are all different and I really do not believe that if only we thought it our labours and births wouldn't hurt.


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## elanorh (Feb 1, 2006)

I do think that we are socialized to expect that labor is painful and frightening - and therefore, many women go into the experience expecting (and fearing) that.

When we are scared, sensations are more vivid IMO. So, we are scared - and that magnifies the pain we're experiencing.

NOT that that happens for everyone. Mom had 7 of us. She told me, "Labor is like menstrual cramps." And, honestly - that's pretty much what it was like for me. I'd wondered whether she and my sister were sugarcoating it, but really it was like that for me. Despite back labor with Ina, it still wasn't *that* painful. Maybe it helps that my family tends to have quick labors, too ...? I've certainly experienced more pain (like, afterwards, my tailbone KILLS for several weeks/months).

And, I wouldn't say I'm 'tough' or have a high pain threshold. I have a very tender mouth, I hate going to the dentist for instance.

I think the keys are to really understand/know what happens during labor, to mom and baby - what to expect from your support team - and to think through what you'll need (and recognize that you may not "know" til you're there, so do lots of research). I'd read that lots of women become prickly and don't want to be touched etc. towards the end of their labor - not for me. DH hoped (and fortunately was correct) that humor would help me relax .... we talked about what I'd read *might* happen in terms of not wanting to be touched or etc., but just relaxed and went with it and were fine.

I tell moms - relax. Do your research, take some classes if they're available, write a birth plan, and remember - women have been doing this since the beginning of time. So we can do this!! Relax, relax, relax.

I do know it hurts more when I don't consciously relax - when I was being distracted by staff at dd2's birth (I have a heart condition and require an IV) - the contractions were much more painful than when I stopped, refocused, and embraced the contraction/relaxed.

Mom said one of the OBs she had over the years tried to get her to do hypnobirth (he did it with many patients) but she didn't do it ever - NCB'd all 7 of us.


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charmander* 
I dunno. Your cervix is dilating, your uterus is trying to expel its contents, and a baby's head is being squeezed through your birth canal. I can't imagine that it would be pain-free. There's gotta be some discomfort there. I think that is natural, and for it to be pain-free (though there are degrees of pain) would be unnatural.

To me, discomfort doesn't equal pain. I can be uncomfortable without it being painful. Pain-free (IMO) doesn't mean it's a walk in the park. It can command focus, it can demand my attention, it can be hard; but not painful. Your body's doing what it's supposed to...not some crazy, outlandish activity.

Also, so are you suggesting that because my mom experienced orgasm during birth that my sister's birth was somehow un-natural? I don't get it!


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## McMandy (May 18, 2007)

I also believe in painfree birth, and agree that birth is not meant to be a comfortable relaxing experience.

Somehow, when people hear "pain-free birth", they think it is without discomfort or effort. There is a huge difference between pain and discomfort.

Fear, and being unprepared mentally/emotionally, can really bring out the pain. Also, most women in America give birth while flat on their back, which is one of the most painful, unnatural methods of "natural birthing" I know of. Looking at birth from that perspective, one would definitely wonder, "How is a pain-free birth possible?"

The mind is a powerful thing, and removing our negative thoughts and fears can do wonders for our birthing experience.


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## Marlet (Sep 9, 2004)

nak

I think a lot of it depends on the birthing environment as well. You should cross post this in the unassisted forum. There seems to be a higher incidence of pain free/orgasmic births among that circle. Perhaps a lot of it has to do with how uninhibited you can feel in your birth space. In the book Unassisted Childbirth a nurse (maybe a dr.? cant remember) is asked what the difference is between an orgasmic contraction and a labour one. Same body parts contracting after all. The person could only reply with one hurts and the other doesn't.







All sorts of things that can go into aside from belief though that does impact it a lot.

ETA: Also, I think we, as people, are very out of tune with what is considered "pain" and what isn't. I think a lot of people (especially first timers) assume the pressure in labour/childbirth is pain. While it can be it isn't always. We are so trained to think birth is painful that we assume everything we feel during that time is in fact pain.


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## hapersmion (Jan 5, 2007)

I would describe my own labor as fairly easy as labors go, but certainly not pain-free, though I was quite confident and prepared, with little fear. But I think too many people have experienced pain-free birth for me to think it isn't possible. It certainly wouldn't hurt to look at what people who experience pain-free births did, and try it for yourself. Even if you do have pain, I bet it would be less than you would have had otherwise.

That said, I don't think pain has to be a bad thing. Pain is a part of the world, just the same as pleasure is, and you can't get through your life without experiencing both. So I think it's a good idea, if you do have pain, to accept it if you can't change it, and learn from it. I'm glad I had the pain I did in labor - it's helped me to be stronger. If I have to do something (like go to the dentist) that will hurt and be scary, I can tell myself, "This is nothing. I've already gone through a natural labor. I can do anything."









hapersmion


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hapersmion* 
If I have to do something (like go to the dentist) that will hurt and be scary, I can tell myself, "This is nothing. I've already gone through a natural labor. I can do anything."









hapersmion


Oooooh, the dentist. Now THAT is pain...I'm scared of the dentist...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't believe it. I do think that our expectations can shape our perception of pain, and I think that a lack of fear can even reduce the pain (due to less tension). However, I think that saying, "if you don't think it will hurt, it won't" is a gross over-simplification. I've almost never experienced menstrual cramps (only a few times during puberty, and my first couple post-partum periods with ds1). That doesn't mean I get to claim that the women I've known who are in excruciating pain every cycle only feel that way because they expected to. Cramps may not be the same thing as labour, but they're definitely related.

FWIW, my second miscarriage was the single most physically painful experience of my life - worse than my sections (although it didn't last as long), worse than a torn ligament in my knee, worse than the labour I've had. I wasn't expecting it - my first one had hurt, but not that much. My third one didn't hurt that much. The second - I wanted to die...not just because I was losing another baby, but because I was in soooo much physical pain. My labour with ds1 hurt...and I didn't even realize it was labour for the first 5-6 hours. I really don't think my expectation had anything to do with it.

ETA: I do believe some women have painless labour. I just don't think it's something we can make happen through mental preparation.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wombatclay* 
I had a VBAC last week...

OMG!! How did I miss this??? Congratulations!!


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crsta33* 
I really liked Baby Catcher by Peggy Vincent...she talks about how she thought if you "did it right" there wouldn't be pain...her first birth was incredibly painful, her 2nd no pain until the very end. She thought she figured out painless childbirth, until she had her 3rd.

This is SO true. I have had 7 children with labors ranging from really overwhelmingly painful to just uncomfortable, much like the above. My first was manageable with painful moments, my second merely uncomfortable and my 3rd knocked me over. I don't think I suddenly developed fear after my second. If anything, I "thought I had childbirth figured out"!

As for "some cultures experiencing painless childbirth", I think that argument has been debunked many times over. I am unaware of any culture that experiences no pain whatsoever in childbirth across the spectrum. Don't veiw it as the horror show that most American women do, perhaps. But not a painless walk in the park either.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SuperMoM2GTO* 
I am reading a book now (Ina May's guide to childbirth) and it basically says (not exact words) that birth is only as painful as you think it will be.

Birth is not inherently painful. Pain often has a pyschological basis. That does _not_ mean, however, that birth pain _necessarily_ has a psychological basis.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CMcC*
But have you ever been around a person who carries on and just swears it's the worst pain of their life and they are convinced they're going to die from the pain? This person is suffering...it's not just pain anymore. They're making the pain much worse....and much harder to deal with. This same principle applies to childbirth. You need to deal/ work with your body during childbirth to make it tolerable. When you fight it and believe you can't do it...you're working against your body making it more painful than it really is. Tensing your body will always make things more painful (remember the shaking the pain off when you stub your toe makes your muscles more limp and less tense). So prepare and have many different pain relieving techniques available to use during labor/birth. (Birthing From Within, my DH and doula made mt labor tolerable.)

Ironically, Pam England believes that pain is normal and important to the process...

As for the idea women who make a lot of noise and complain etc. in labor are making things worse, it sounds so very reasonable, doesn't it? Negativity breeds negativity and all that? But what if emoting is rather _a letting go?_

With my first I had a midwife who was insistent that I labor like the women in Spiritual Midwifery -- quiet, soft, calm, "giving some" to the attendants. What my body _wanted_ me to do was be loud, swear, jump around, grimace, but I tried to suppress that as best I could. It was stressful. I felt betrayed by my midwife because she believed that I was _making_ my labor long and difficult because it was so painful and I couldn't "just relax" ("But have you ever been around a person who carries on and just swears it's the worst pain of their life and they are convinced they're going to die from the pain? This person is suffering...it's not just pain anymore. They're making the pain much worse....") and I felt betrayed by my body because it was telling me to do something that was "wrong". It took a tremendous amount of energy to try to do it "right". It was a traumatic birth not because of the pain itself, but because of the conflict. The result was physical injury and severe postpartum depression.

With my second I had done some reading and educating myself and decided that I was going to trust my body this time. My new midwife supported me in doing so, however that happened to look. I also had done a lot of reading about ecstatic and pleasurable birth and felt very confident about having a good birth this time. And indeed the first part of the labor was great. But then the baby dropped and the head pressed against my sacrum and it felt like my back was splitting apart. It was _excruciatingly_ painful, torturous. I wailed. I swore. I screwed my face up. I bit the edge of the tub. I roared. I said things like, "HELP!" and "OH GOD!" and "I DON'T LIKE THIS." Interestingly, the labor was relatively short, and second stage was spontaneous and instinctive and quick and lovely. I loved the feeling of my baby coming out and tried as long as I could to hold onto the visceral memory of it. I felt like superwoman, powerful. 'Empowered' is an understatement.

My third was unassisted. My labor was longer (which I suspect the baby required) but followed the same pattern, with it becoming very painful at the end. Second stage was again fantastic, with a classic fetal ejection reflex.

My fourth, again, became excruciatingly painful toward the end despite a _completely_ undisturbed labor, positive attitude, and enjoyable early labor. Three hours before the baby was born the torture began. But here's where it gets really interesting, and is the part I see as especially relevant to this discussion:

_Two_ hours before the baby was born, _the pain stopped._ Completely. I sat back in my nest of cushions and felt up inside myself and was pleased to feel myself lubricated and engorged. I was flooded with endorphins that had been created in response to the pain, and now that I didn't have the pain demanding my attention, I was aware of them. It was _rapturous._ I thought to myself, _ahhh, maybe I am going to get my pleasurable birth after all!_ Smiling, I nodded off to sleep, which also felt so incredibly good. I felt safe and secure and content. I estimate I slept for about an hour.

And then WHAM! I was hit with a fast-building contraction and was literally propelled onto my hands and knees and wailing through the agony. And again, _because I did not hold back,_ and let myself yell and swear and thrash around etc. as my body compelled me to, I had a quick, lovely, normal second stage, and again felt great afterwards, emotionally and physically. No PPD.

The pain was psychological? Bullshit.

Here's what I think happened: there is something in my physiology that makes birth painful for me. I think I know what it is, but that's not relevant. What is relevant is that in my case it is not psychological, and it is insulting for people to imply that it is. Quite simply, they don't know what they're talking about. For _me,_ to wail and shriek and scrunch my face up and say, "this hurts so bad," is the way _I_ deal with the stress of the pain. _That_ is what releases the tension, not trying to be calm when everything in my body is screaming out to do the opposite.

My first midwife thought she was right in her judgment of me and my situation, and that she was right to admonish me to not move around and make noises like a wild animal and to express that it was painful. But she was wrong, and it was _that_ that made my first labor so awful, not the pain itself.


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## happy2bamama (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crsta33* 
I wanted to be quiet and dignified in labor b/c I saw a video where the laboring woman was so calm and it was such a beautiful birth and I knew it was possible and I wanted to do it that way, but that's not how I handle labor. I make alot of undignified noise when I labor and push, but really that's okay b/c it's much better to honor who I am than to try to reach some "ideal" birth by being someone I'm not.

Christa

Before birthing, I felt this exact same way too. I saw the video of the Russian woman (who I think was also a midwife herself?) who delivered her own baby in the glass tub and I thought it looked so peaceful and pain-free and not "messy" that I began focusing on having a graceful birth like that. Then, I went through Birthing From Within (based on Pam England's book) classes which helped me get rid of this crazy ideal. I'm not saying that wanting a graceful birth is crazy, but through the classes, I found out that for me personally, one of my hang ups was that I was a little scared of becoming a mess, wigging out or making a lot of noise during labor. I am SOOOOOO thankful I took those classes because funny enough, the pain-coping technique that I ended up utilizing was moaning through each contraction, which originally was the opposite of how I pictured myself in a serene, candle-lit room, not making a peep while pushing my baby out!

My midwife said to me once, "Whenever I go to a birth where there are candles lit and soft music playing, I think 'Oh sh*t...' because it makes me feel like the woman doesn't know that there's work to be done." Of course, some women do know that labor is well, laborious, and they still want candles and soft music playing, but I think her point is that you have to be realistic and know that there might be pain involved and to be prepared mentally, if there is. I love the way that Birthing From Within looked at it - it phrased it like, "What does the birth fairy have in store for you on the day you go into labor?" I think it's great because as much as you put positive vibes out there and focus on a pain-free birth, you might be that special someone who gets dealt back labor (like me!) or something more complicated.

Personally, preparing for birth reminded me of a bumper sticker I once saw - something like, "You can't prepare for war and prepare for peace at the same time." There's a fine line between focusing on a wonderful, pain-free birth, but also letting your mind explore what you might do or feel like if you did have a painful or complicated birth. I think letting yourself mentally explore the painful or complicated birth and then putting it behind you and focusing on a positive, pain-free labor is a good way to go. That way, you are intending for a wonderful labor, but if the "birth fairy" doesn't grant you one, you are at least somewhat prepared mentally for the alternative.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

I was convinced that labour would hurt maybe half as much as it actually did.

I think that people who gloss over how much it really hurts are doing first timers a disservice. The main reason I collapsed and asked for drugs was how totally unexpected the pain, and the *wrong* feeling of that pain was. I fell hook line and sinker for the "it's just hard work" line, and of course ignored anyone who patronisingly said I'd scream for drugs.

If just one person had said "yes, it hurts like nothing you'll ever feel again, and you will be convinced it's going terribly wrong, and will want to die from the pain, but you can do, just aim to be alive at the end". Then I would have had better preparation.


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## crunchymomof2 (May 23, 2005)

My last birth was excruciating until I let go and relaxed. My husband told me not to be afraid and I looked right into his eyes during the contractions. Then it was so incredibly intense but was not painful. It was definitely different than anything I have ever experienced.


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *attachedmamaof3* 
To me, discomfort doesn't equal pain. I can be uncomfortable without it being painful. Pain-free (IMO) doesn't mean it's a walk in the park. It can command focus, it can demand my attention, it can be hard; but not painful. Your body's doing what it's supposed to...not some crazy, outlandish activity.

Also, so are you suggesting that because my mom experienced orgasm during birth that my sister's birth was somehow un-natural? I don't get it!

I think you are reading too much into my post. I have no idea about your mom or her experience.

All I am saying is that given the fact that your body is doing its darndest to expel something from your uterus, it seems normal that there would be some discomfort (or pain.) Yes, your body is doing what it is designed to do, not some outlandish activity, but it is something that doesn't happen to your body every day.

I'm glad your mom had an orgasmic birth. Un-natural - not necessarily, extremely uncommon - yes.


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## Ygle (Mar 2, 2007)

I was so convinced that birth would be a mostly painless natural process that when I went into labor with my first I didn't even tell anyone... I seriously thought I could just easily handle it at home myself. Even when it started getting more and more painful than I expected I wasn't at all worried since I was used to having painful menstrual cramps (and until I experienced that I had never even heard of painful menstrual cramps -most people I knew didn't even know when they were menstruating and I had horrible pains half a day or so before I saw blood so it was several cylces before it was even realized it was menstrual cramps I was experiencing). Fortunately (to my mind) my dh was working long hours and slept through anything so all my agonizing went unnoticed by him, but the pain just kept getting worse and worse for me, I eventually literally lost my mind because the pain got so intense (and due to lack of sleep from the pain) -when I did have a small moment of clarity I realized I needed help and it was at that point I finally went into the hospital. I thought something had to be terribly wrong and therefor I needed to be in the hospital because how on earth else could birth be this horrifically painful? Everything was fine though besides me being completely out of my mind in pain (knowing everything was okay was reassuring but that didn't take away the pain). One good thing I suppose is that because the pain of labor was so bad when I tore that was like nothing. I never in my wildest imagination believed labor could possibly come anywhere close to the pain I experienced -it was quite a shocker!

Even with my second I wasn't expecting it to be that bad because I thought the second would be easier. I was planning on getting meds for that one though because there is no way I would ever consider having more children if I had to go through what I went through with my first again. I ended up in back labor (and no meds because the hospital was positive I wasn't really in labor...??? and even when they were finally convinced they couldn't get an IV in me correctly), but the back labor was actually welcome for me because by focusing on that pain, as horrific as it was (and I think it took me almost a year for my tailbone to fully recover) it helped take my mind off the other labor pains which were just too intolerable (that seems so crazy I know, I guess it's like squeezing someone's hand, or pinching your wrist or biting on leather to endure some other pain -I just needed something with a lot more punch to take the focus off my contractions).

With my third I fully expected it to be beyond painful -I ended up with an epidural but only because of some traumatic hospital experience not really the pain itself, so I can't say how bad it would've gotten, but I was definitely able to handle the early pain better with my third not having the expectation that it's not going to be that bad. I still got surprised with the afterbirth pains... I'd never experienced that before and never even heard of afterbirth pains and those were excrutiating for me, just like being in labor... so for me it doesn't seem like it's my beliefs that caused me to experience pain considering I had no idea the pain should even be there, but rather the experience of pain caused me to believe in it.


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## nhplantlady (Jun 3, 2007)

The first one was difficult as I'd never gone thru it before and was not sure what to expect. Also it was long (started Saturday 8pm & labored lightly until Sunday at 5PM and then did not deliver until Monday at 3AM)...finally someone asked me what I was afraid of and it was mostly that I might tear. Once that was said things moved along faster and I did tear a little.

My DS's birth was only 7 hours and when it came time to push I could not believe that it seemed like only about 10 really hard pushes. I think I cracked a tooth during his delivery and some of the photos showed a dark line under my chin so I guess I really was bearing down. But as someone said in another thread, once you have that beautiful baby on your chest it all gets forgotten. Both my kids were drug free deliveries which makes me incredibly proud since they were totally drug free while inside me for 9 months too.

I cannot say enough for my doula (a great friend who was a delivery nurse for 20+ years). She reminded me to relax and breath. With the first birth we also did stretching exercises with DH during the transition phase and also several long soaks in the tub.

Just Ibuprofen after the delivery and not for very long. I think waiting until I was really ready to be at the hospital was the best suggestion I was given. Don't go there too early or they might try to interfere with the process.


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## Vespertina (Sep 30, 2006)

My births were not painful. They were pretty easy. I would describe my contractions in transition as powerful or a strong tightening, but not painful. They were like menstrual cramps with my first.

I was very surprised at how easy it was with my first. I just hope I was going to have the same luxury again. I couldn't ask for better labors. My nurses and midwives could barely tell I was in transition with my second. The nurses only suspected I changed because I went from talking a lot to only a little. I was concentrating on keeping my body relaxed.

My first was just over 3 hours and second was 47 minutes. Yeah, pretty easy.

I think it greatly depends on the woman.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

My first labor, I was loopy with drugs







: so I don't remember anything except that I was terrified.

My second labor I can honestly say I didn't experience the contractions as pain. It was very, very weird feelings, and during transition they bordered on overwhelming, but they didn't *hurt*.

My third labor was short and easy too but those contractions hurt. They hurt a lot, even when I was in the best position I could find for coping with them.

If anything, I had more confidence in my body and my ability to birth with the third labor, and the situation with my second and third births were very similar (big baby, overdue, lots of terrible things said by doctors), so I don't think it was a mental issue with me.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

I haven't read all the responses but wanted to respond to the OP.

Personally, I believe that painless birth is possible and does happen. I believe it would happen more if birth wasn't so frequently interfered with and women weren't led to believe their whole lives that birth is painful.

However, I also don't think you can just tell yourself birth will be painless and thus it will be. I had pain from my first contraction, which I wasn't expecting at all. It wasn't bad, of course, but it hurt. I ended up having an extremely painful last 8 hours of labor, and I don't believe that any amount of good thinking or positive thoughts would have made the birth painless. I was actually in a very good situation and totally uninterfered with and in my own home territory. I wasn't afraid of birth or anything like that - especially during the birth, I felt calm and unafraid.

I would not plan on birth being painless and assume that's what I would get. For myself, I've thought about trying hypnobabies since I've heard good things about it, but I'm extremely difficult to hypnotize and I'm not sure it would work for me.

I had a similar first birth as Ygle's. I was also hopeful that I would have an orgasmic birth, which didn't happen. I'd use the same words she did - excruciating, horrific, etc.

Quote:

so for me it doesn't seem like it's my beliefs that caused me to experience pain considering I had no idea the pain should even be there, but rather *the experience of pain caused me to believe in it*.
(emphasis mine) That is similar to how I feel.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

I think that birth is a very powerful process, and our minds have no framework for processing that power... so we experience it as pain. I'm not saying my labors are painless. It's one thing to realize, this is my body responding to something it doesn't understand, and another thing to not do it anymore!

Being open to what labor brings you is the best any of us can do, and if that is painless then wonderful. If it is painful, we are well equipped to handle that.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

DD's 51 hour back labor was excruciating. She was not quite positioned correctly and it took her most of the 51 hours to stop trying to come out through my hip (she was just slightly off-but enough to make it hard work for both of us).

Once I gave into the pain I lost time and hours flew by. I think that must have been the endorphins winning over the fear/adrenaline.

When it was time to push it was very pleasurable. When she actually was born it was something like orgasmic.

I think that the pain and resulting endorphins are what made the latter part so pleasurable.

Maybe women that experience pain free/organismic birth are just better at getting the endorphins flowing? Just a thought.

I think there are also very real physical reasons why one birth might hurt more than another. Sometimes babies are just not quite lined up right or have a hand by there face. Sometimes we start labor less then well rested and well fed.

Birth is such a complex dance of mother and baby and all these hormones and muscles working together. When everything is in perfect sink (sp?) it makes sense to me that birth would not be painful. The problem is that there are so many things that can distract and cause the dance to be out of sink, even a little. And many of these things can not be controlled.

I am am one momma that HAS to believe in pain free birth. I don't expect to get it but here's to hoping!


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

I believe women who say they've had painless births. I also believe that there are physiological reasons for pain, that it is not all in our heads, so to speak, and that just believing it won't hurt doesn't make it so. I had a UC with my 2nd, and labored EXACTLY how I wanted to, and it still hurt like hell. To me, pain isn't evil. I do believe you can use the hypnotherapy programs to mask pain, but they don't work for everybody. I used Hypnobabies w/ my UC baby, and liked it. It helped, but I didn't have a painless birth (fwiw, painless birth wasn't a priority for me).

Oh, and what I felt was not even close to 'discomfort.' I remember sitting in the birth pool, feeling really good and happy, but thinking, "Don't EVER forget how much this hurts. This hurts A LOT."


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## Gray's Mommy (Jul 8, 2005)

I don't go for the no pain theory either. Some women experience severe pain while others it is minimal...but to have no pain it just odd to me. I have attended many births & there normally is pain involved. I have had 2 births personally & pain was there too. I am a strong believer in birth without fear though.


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## Rockies5 (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SuperMoM2GTO* 
I am reading a book now (Ina May's guide to childbirth) and it basically says (not exact words) that birth is only as painful as you think it will be. Well with DS, I totally believed he was just going to "fall out" and birth was not going to be painful. Long story short, it was painful.

Now this was a long time before I started reading this book (and hearing the idea that if you believe its not painful, it wont be) I still dont think it should be painful and think the reason I experienced pain last time was because I was induced. I believe that allowed to labor naturally, it wouldn't be painful. Am I right in thinking this? Or do I need to reevaluate my birth plan?

Maybe. I've had "pain free" births when I expected great pain, and excruciating births when I was fear free and alone. I'm hesitant to tell someone to plan a pain free birth, because _if_ you do everything "right" (according to the theory) and still have a little, or alot of pain you may feel guilty, defeated or like you failed. I don't hold up any methods of childbirth that claim "pain free" because just as pleasure is individual to each woman, so is pain and we'll each give birth in our own way. I think learning a method is counterproductive to intuition.

I also think Ina May is more then a little controlling and nuts and over the line as a midwife, according to what I find in her own stories written in her own hand in her own book.







: Lots of good information in her book, lots of stuff that made me skip her recent conference in my town.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happy2bamama* 
My midwife said to me once, "Whenever I go to a birth where there are candles lit and soft music playing, I think 'Oh sh*t...' because it makes me feel like the woman doesn't know that there's work to be done." Of course, some women do know that labor is well, laborious, and they still want candles and soft music playing, but I think her point is that you have to be realistic and know that there might be pain involved and to be prepared mentally, if there is.

Sure. There are also the problems of the self-fulfilling prophecy and the fact that it's debatable whether one _can_ be prepared for pain simply by knowing that it might be present. But I'm not going to get into that right now. What I really want to know is why she assumes that the atmosphere that a mother chooses for her birth is indicative of her ability to be realistic about the possibility of pain? And why she feels qualified to psychoanalyze the mother's behavior? I find it really disturbing that there are midwives that allow themselves to make these kind of judgments. I certainly wouldn't want a midwife coming into my birth space questioning the validity of my choices and my vision. It sets up a hierarchical dynamic from the very beginning: the mother is delusional and needs to be set right, and the midwife is the wise one come to save her. Um, no thanks.

From _Birthing From Within_, p.120:

Quote:

When I arrive at a laboring couple's home and find candles burning, soft music playing and the mother wearing a flowing, white lace nightgown, I know we're in trouble. I think to myself, "Uh-oh, this is going to take a long time." I know I can either get out my knitting and settle in, or snuff the candles, turn off the music, and throw her an old T-shirt. In other words, tell her to get down to work.
Such arrogance! Completely disregards the value of the mother making the experience her own, and that the mother's intuitive wisdom in preparing for the labor may very well include easing into it in such a way. It's not always about "just getting it over with."


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## mom3b1? (Jun 3, 2007)

My sister expected pain, and didn't feel any. She had her babies in the hospital. In both cases she arrived very late as they kept telling her she couldn't really be in labor because she was too comfortable, and not to come in. She felt pressure, and a strong urge to walk. One of her babies was born just moments after getting to the hospital, and the next she had just enough time to go from triage to a birthing suite. Big babies, and small mommy too.

She went to the hospital thinking she'd hold off on an epidural as long as she could, and see how it went. She thought she'd like to birth without drugs, but would do it if it got too bad.

Anything is possible, but I don't think you can control it by expecting this or that. That can also lead to a false blame cycle, where you think it's your fault that your labor hurt. I think if you are afraid of the pain, you may make it worse, if the baby is positioned in certain ways, it may hurt more.

I also don't believe that pain is necessarily bad. Sometimes that's just how birth is. It can hurt a lot.

I agree about the MW storming in and telling the parents how to do it. Might as well go to the hospital at that point. That way when things get messed up from mom being pushed around, at least they can do more to fix the problems they are creating. If I light a candle in my own home, I expect to be asked before it's snuffed!

Kiley


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## mamada (Oct 4, 2006)

I believe that some women experience pain-free births, but I do not believe that it has anything to do with whether you believe you will have one or not. It is my personal belief that how much pain you feel during labour has more to do with genetics than the power of the mind.

When I birthed ds, I had no idea how much pain to really expect. Having heard many horror stories though, I was prepared to have to endure a VERY painful experience (I had decided on a homebirth). So I believed it could possibly be an excruciatingly painful experience - but it wasn't. I mean, it hurt a lot, but not as bad as I had expected. The one thing that really helped me a lot was having read somewhere that "if you believe you can do it, you can. If you don't believe you can do it, you can't". That is where I believe the mind is very important - you need to believe that you can DEAL with the pain and birth without medication in order to actually be able to. I just don't think you can believe the pain away.

In addition, I have a friend who had read that it's possible to birth pain-free as long as you believe it will be so. She was a VERY positive thinker and was absolutely, completely convinced that she would have a pain-free, and possibly even pleasurable, birth. If there was one person on the face of the earth who could believe herself into having a pain-free birth, it was her. When the time came, however, she had 16 hours of the worst back labour imaginable. She said it was the most excruciating pain she could have ever imagined. She has since sworn never to have any more children.

So...based on my and my friend's experiences, I would say to just work on believing you can deal with whatever pain you're faced with, rather than working on believing you won't have any pain whatsoever.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charmander*
it seems normal that there would be some discomfort (or pain.)


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gray's Mommy* 
I have attended many births & there normally is pain involved.

The prevalence of pain in birth is not evidence that human physiology mandates it, as there are other factors in the equation, so that we have no way of knowing if they are responsible for all of it or only part.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
Sure. There are also the problems of the self-fulfilling prophecy and the fact that it's debatable whether one _can_ be prepared for pain simply by knowing that it might be present. But I'm not going to get into that right now. What I really want to know is why she assumes that the atmosphere that a mother chooses for her birth is indicative of her ability to be realistic about the possibility of pain? And why she feels qualified to psychoanalyze the mother's behavior? I find it really disturbing that there are midwives that allow themselves to make these kind of judgments. I certainly wouldn't want a midwife coming into my birth space questioning the validity of my choices and my vision. It sets up a hierarchical dynamic from the very beginning: the mother is delusional and needs to be set right, and the midwife is the wise one come to save her. Um, no thanks.

From _Birthing From Within_, p.120:

Such arrogance! Completely disregards the value of the mother making the experience her own, and that the mother's intuitive wisdom in preparing for the labor may very well include easing into it in such a way. It's not always about "just getting it over with."


I agree. The birth experience is a very important one, and if that involves candles and soft music and things enjoyable and relaxing to the laboring woman (the only person whose opinions matter in that moment!) then the midwife has NO RIGHT to question or deride that. FWIW the birth where I did take the time to have candles, pleasant sounds, and pretty scents, was my most peaceful, most enjoyable, least painful, and definitely a beautiful experience for me and my husband as we welcomed our baby.

This MWs attitude reminds me of L&D nurses and OBs who see a birth plan and automatically think "She's headed to a c-section!" Simple arrogance and narrow mindedness IMO.


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## happy2bamama (Apr 29, 2006)

Whoa - finger off the trigger, mamas! I feel that in my pp, the thought my midwife had about walking into a birth with candles and music was blown way out of proportion. OF COURSE she's not coming in doubting and "psychoanalyzing" the laboring mama and telling everyone what to do and snuffing out candles! Sometimes I feel like instead of sticking to the topic at hand and trying to help the op, some mamas are looking to find any little thing to pick apart.







I sometimes feel like I'm "typing on eggshells" here.

My midwife has raved about how beautiful and amazing the candlelight births she's attended were and I'm sorry I wasn't more clear about that earlier, but please, sometimes give people the benefit of the doubt and don't be so quick to throw stones.

And, I have to say that I bought a bunch of candles and had a birth mix on my iPod because I envisioned this quiet, relaxing birth and when labor arrived, I didn't even think about using any of that stuff! For the trigger happy mamas - that's not to say that someone else wouldn't completely benefit from these things, it's just that I didn't personally, even though I thought I would.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happy2bamama* 
OF COURSE she's not coming in doubting and "psychoanalyzing" the laboring mama

But that's exactly what the following _is_: "Whenever I go to a birth where there are candles lit and soft music playing, I think 'Oh sh*t...' because it makes me feel like the woman doesn't know that there's work to be done."

Quote:

Sometimes I feel like instead of sticking to the topic at hand and trying to help the op, some mamas are looking to find any little thing to pick apart.









And it is really insulting to have one's concerns and perspective dismissed as a simple character flaw.

Quote:

My midwife has raved about how beautiful and amazing the candlelight births she's attended were and I'm sorry I wasn't more clear about that earlier, but please, sometimes give people the benefit of the doubt and don't be so quick to throw stones.
It's great that she loves candlelit births. I'm sure she's a very nice person. I still find her statement disturbing.









Quote:

And, I have to say that I bought a bunch of candles and had a birth mix on my iPod because I envisioned this quiet, relaxing birth and when labor arrived, I didn't even think about using any of that stuff! For the trigger happy mamas - that's not to say that someone else wouldn't completely benefit from these things, it's just that I didn't personally, even though I thought I would.
Again, this is insulting. Both the accusation "trigger happy", as if what I replied to isn't a real issue; and the notion that I would take your personal preferences as an offense because I found the other statement disturbing, as if it's at all the same sort of thing.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

personally, i do not believe that birth 'absoutely must be painful.' i think that based on any number of factors, it can be painful, but as FLB mentioned, it doesn't seem to me that it is biologically required.

beyond this, i think that labor can be and often is 'hard work' but that 'hard work' also need not be painful.


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## happy2bamama (Apr 29, 2006)

Wow, and I thought my post had been picked apart before! You completely proved my point.

OP - sorry for the diversion - I hope at least some of this has helped you decide how you will prepare for your birth.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

For those who believe that the pain is a result of the mother's expectation of said pain, I have a question.

How do you explain women who are in pain before they even realize they're in labour? With ds1, I suffered from a severe backache for several hours before I experienced any recognizable contractions, and I didn't realize I was in labour.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Storm Bride, I'm new at this and frankly quite scared. As you can see I joined in '04 and today I've written my first two post. I was traumatized at a different forum, MOPS, a Christian site. I tried to explain that circumcision wasn't necessary. The moderator let me stay for as long as I could handle it, because she too had intact sons. Anyways, the answer to your question... Being in denial is probably a great thing if your having a natural birth because you've killed a lot of time.

I have 4 children. I gave birth 8wks ago to a beautiful 9lb 8oz boy we named Liam. No pain until the pushing part, that was 4 minutes. My daughter Ireland was born in the water 10lb 5oz. With her, I was in denial. I felt pressure and a huge amount of endorphins flooded my body. We walked all day that day and when I got home, called the midwife. She came to check me and I was a 7cm. Two hours later my baby girl was born. The child before her, Jaden was the first to be born at home. His birth was mighty painful! My very first child was in the hospital - Had epidural, 4th degree episiotomy, and forceps. He was my smallest kid 8-9.

Since I've had large babies, I now have uterine prolapse. I saw a doctor and he scared the s**t out of me. Said I needed a hysterectomy. This was a second opinion too. He had worse news to give me than the first doctor. However, I do feel tons better as I've been doing 300 kegels a day! I'm not bulging as much anymore. And for those of you who don't mind details, bless you! My "insides" should be a 2cm and I'm a 7 and a half. Is there anyone out there who may have experienced this?


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SuperMoM2GTO* 
I am reading a book now (Ina May's guide to childbirth) and it basically says (not exact words) that birth is only as painful as you think it will be. Well with DS, I totally believed he was just going to "fall out" and birth was not going to be painful. Long story short, it was painful.

Now this was a long time before I started reading this book (and hearing the idea that if you believe its not painful, it wont be) I still don't think it should be painful and think the reason I experienced pain last time was because I was induced. I believe that allowed to labor naturally, it wouldn't be painful. Am I right in thinking this? Or do I need to reevaluate my birth plan?

Interesting that you pose this question/train of thought at this time. I have been thinking about this myself. As I read Laura Shanley's site and other UC stories and articles about birth perhaps being intense, but not painful, it gives me much to think about and reconsider about birth.

I realized that when the contractions would start with my 2 other labors, I'd announce, "Here comes another one" and sort of brace myself for the pain. The second labor and birth, it was more intense and less pain, and for this third baby's birth, I'd like to really let go of my notions of feeling pain and "expect pleasure". I have read about women feeling like they are floating toward heaven with each surge (Ina's Spiritual Midwifery has those accounts, as well as the new video "Birth as We Know It")

I think fearing each contraction is one way of expecting them to be painful. So, today, when my braxton hicks contrx came, I noticed I tensed up and felt worried that my body/baby could handle it and stopped myself there and replaced that worry with welcome and imagined the "swells" as expanding my uterus like a balloon, and reminded myself my body is *strong* and capable and will not burst. (Edit to add: when I paid attention to the sensations and made conscious effort to welcome them, it was not frightening or painful anymore. These had initially been pretty strong and I was beginning to feel the anxiety of expecting pain to increase)

We women really can connect inward and do what is best to be peaceful with labor and birth. It can be a process to learn and internalize these things. Edit to add: Each woman is different and will find what works best for her in her labors, especially if she feels supported and cared for.

HTH and looking forward to reading the rest of the thread now that I just went ahead and posted a response without really reading through.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *McMandy* 
The mind is a powerful thing, and removing our negative thoughts and fears can do wonders for our birthing experience.

This statement has power to it. Women can tap into their own power and find the ability to change their feelings and perceptions. It is a journey, not an event. It takes a lot of faith sometimes and not everyone will reach the same "goal" (each birth may "look" differently from another woman's birth, but it can be a good birth experience for the woman). The one that the woman achieves is just right for her b/c of her efforts.

I really like how it is said in the birth film "Birth as We Know It" that birth is a culmination of the entire work of conception and pregnancy. It is not just an end event. What we think, feel, perceive and believe during our pregnancies wraps up in the final act of birth. We women have an incredible ability to affect how we feel about labor and birth and how we respond to the challenge, and how we approach it during pregnancy can make all the difference when the moment of labor and birth arrives. I think we women do not conceptualize the extent of the power and strength within us sometimes. There is so much there to be tapped into.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoebird* 
personally, i do not believe that birth 'absoutely must be painful.' i think that based on any number of factors, it can be painful, but as FLB mentioned, it doesn't seem to me that it is biologically required.

beyond this, i think that labor can be and often is 'hard work' but that 'hard work' also need not be painful.

I can agree with these statements They ring true for me.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenthumb3* 
This statement has power to it. Women can tap into their own power and find the ability to change their feelings and perceptions. It is a journey, not an event. It takes a lot of faith sometimes and not everyone will reach the same "goal" (each birth may "look" differently from another woman's birth, but it can be a good birth experience for the woman). The one that the woman achieves is just right for her b/c of her efforts.

I really like how it is said in the birth film "Birth as We Know It" that birth is a culmination of the entire work of conception and pregnancy. It is not just an end event. What we think, feel, perceive and believe during our pregnancies wraps up in the final act of birth. We women have an incredible ability to affect how we feel about labor and birth and how we respond to the challenge, and how we approach it during pregnancy can make all the difference when the moment of labor and birth arrives. I think we women do not conceptualize the extent of the power and strength within us sometimes. There is so much there to be tapped into.


I was going to put a "nodding" emoticon here, but I have to go with







instead. Beautifully put. Just beautiful!!


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
For those who believe that the pain is a result of the mother's expectation of said pain, I have a question.

How do you explain women who are in pain before they even realize they're in labour? With ds1, I suffered from a severe backache for several hours before I experienced any recognizable contractions, and I didn't realize I was in labour.

Perhaps we are veering off into a discussion about what pain means to each of us. Backache is not pain to me. Pain is a cold drink and a cracked tooth.
This coming from someone whose first child was coming transverse and had to be turned via internal version in order to present head-first..and was born posterior after back-labor galore (my DP pounded my back so hard I was black/blue from waist to neck the next day). My second was also posterior with two nuchal hands. No walk in the park. Unpleasant at times, yes. Pain, no.

I also think that I need to clarify my posts. In responding to the original question, I state that I believe what we internalize does shape our births. I truly believe that. That said, I don't think it's the old "if you have enough faith, you won't get sick". Sometimes there are things at work outside yourself that you may have no control over. BUT, I do firmly believe that approaching birth with ingrained fear of pain will definately affect the way you experience your births (and your definition of pain). I just don't think it's the ONLY factor.


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## pixiedust (Dec 24, 2004)

I don't know LOL (how's that for a decisive answer? ) Last time around I wasn't even sure I was in labor until transition hit.. I thought I was but just didn't know if it was the "real thing" or not. The last 2 hours were very uncomfortable but also very manageable. I tore during the birth and being stitched up was 10x worse than the actual labor. I think for me the pain is MUCH helped by knowing that #1- it won't last forever #2- I'm getting a BABY out of this! The minute the baby arrives I lose all pain tolerance and can not STAND birthing the placenta and getting stitched LOL. There is def. alot of mental work that helps a birth be a bit less painless. This time around I'm going to do hypnobirthing and I really think I can have a birth that is more uncomfortable than painful.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

My 2 births were definitely like being stabbed with knives in the legs (why the legs, I don't know!!???) But it didn't hurt just because I thought it did - it really did hurt!


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

I have a question - hope it's not too OT - if pain is based on your belief or expectation of pain, can the same be said for nausea? I'm curious how many mamas here avoided the discomfort of pregnancy-related nausea using the same techniques as for avoiding birth-related pain?


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## jljeppson (Jul 18, 2004)

Jumping in here, of my 5 births (4 at home) 2 have been almost completely pain free. The 1st was a hospital birth w/my body absolutely not wanting to go into labor (35 wks with contractions 4x an hr when I went in. Had been admitted for a possible emergency section the week before and they wanted me in immediately if anything else happened. Got in and they said my water bag was leaking and so kept me and eventually induced. Even pit didn't work, my son so didn't want to be born. Barely missed a c-sec again.) The first 52 hrs didn't hurt with him, but the last 5 or so did. I wasn't allowed out of bed, wasn't allowed to eat or drink, and was exhausted because I was having trouble sleeping. Only real sleep I got was when they gave me some demerol to help me sleep. Was so tired I slept until transition even though the drug had long worn off. Second was at home, 15 hrs, again didn't hurt much until near the end, maybe the last hr or so. 3rd was a water birth and an overwhelming desire to have my mom there this time. She got there, baby was born after 7 hrs and was completely pain free except for the ring of fire. The contractions caught my attention, but didn't hurt. Was just like I was exercising and needed to concentrate. 4th was a planned waterbirth that didn't happen, 11 1/2 hr labor, that hurt from the very first contraction. Didn't dilate past a 3 until after 11 hrs and then hit transition and went from a 3 to a 10 and delivered in 30 min. Hurt worse than anything I could ever think of. Baby was posterior during labor and NEVER turned, delivered sunny side up. Didn't get my water birth, had to be lying down and couldn't stand anything else. Baby knew I needed to deliver on my side and that's what caused him to shift that little bit needed and get his head on the cervix and dilate it. Also kept me from tearing (my biggest baby). 5th was a 7 1/2 hr waterbirth, again with mom and this time sister that didn't make it to the last one and was completely pain free except for ring of fire. I have absolutely no expectations for this last one and will just take it as it comes, but there are some tensions that may keep it from being pain free. If those are settled well ahead of time, than I believe it will be a pain free one again. With my 1st and all the interventions, etc and no idea what was going on there was no way I could have truly relaxed. With my 2nd I think it would have been pain free through the whole thing, even those last hrs if my 1st had been normal and I knew what to expect. 3rd was perfect, just the way I wanted it. 4th babies position made it impossible to be pain free, but it was still good. No one made it there on time and it was just me and DH and my 2 boys who were going to be there for the birth and was beautiful. 5th was perfect (if you can call 8 kids in the house and awake perfect) and just the way I wanted it again. The ones where everything went just right were perfect, I was calm, relaxed, etc. The ones where there was any uncertainty I felt pain. Sorry this is so long, but what it comes down to is I think a pain free birth is possible for anyone if the circumstances are just right. I don't think it happens for most because it doesn't take much for those circumstances to be thrown off, but in a perfect birth with everything just so (and definitely not a posterior baby!, at least for me) it is POSSIBLE (not destined) for someone to have a strong, but pain free labor and delivery.


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## jljeppson (Jul 18, 2004)

Agree with the leg thing, that's where I feel my menstrual pains is as an aching in my legs, not my stomach. The painful contractions spread to my legs as well, though with the posterior baby I needed a lot of attention and pressure on the small of my back.


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## kerikadi (Nov 22, 2001)

I wouldn't consider my labors painful but pushing is another story. Pushing wasn't bad for my first two that weighed 6/8 and 5/12 with little heads.

Having said that, I don't care how relaxed you are when something comes out of your vagina weighing 9 pounds 8 ounces with a 14.5inch head it's going to hurt! Or an 8/8 baby with compound presenation - OUCH! I wasn't really in pain until baby was presenting. Thankfully I push them out fast









Keri


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
I have a question - hope it's not too OT - if pain is based on your belief or expectation of pain, can the same be said for nausea? I'm curious how many mamas here avoided the discomfort of pregnancy-related nausea using the same techniques as for avoiding birth-related pain?

I can't help you there. I've been sick a total of once during a pregnancy and that was during my first trimester of my first pregnancy....I'd been up all night dealing with a family emergency (in-laws) and then went ahead and had blood drawn. I didn't expect it to be an issue, as blood draws don't bother me, but the combination (hormones, fatigue and blood draw) nailed me pretty hard. Other than that, in seven pregnancies (three miscarried at 12 wks.), I've never suffered from more than a hint of an upset stomach, which went away as soon as I ate something. FWIW, I figured I would have "morning sickness", as it was very ingrained that _every_ woman gets it.

Pain is definitely subjective. The backache I had with ds1 was 100X worse than getting a dental filling with no freezing - for me. I'm sure others would disagree. The labour contractions (went to full dilation, but didn't push), on the other hand, weren't that bad...somewhat painful, but more intense. We'll see what this one is like, but while I expect pain, I don't actually fear it. Pain is just...pain...it's part of life. I don't necessarily expect to get through any given day without feeling pain (accidentally touching a hot pan, stumbling and bashing my arm on something, etc.), so the idea that birth may/will hurt really isn't a big deal. I can tell you that I'd rather go through what labour I've experienced a hundred times over having a migraine, or a c-section recovery, as both were much, much more painful than labour...for me.


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## hapersmion (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
I have a question - hope it's not too OT - if pain is based on your belief or expectation of pain, can the same be said for nausea? I'm curious how many mamas here avoided the discomfort of pregnancy-related nausea using the same techniques as for avoiding birth-related pain?

I found that during transition, whenever I tried to lie down (on my side) through a contraction, I would throw up. (So glad I wasn't confined to a hospital bed!) It was really annoying, because I was tired and wanted to rest, but I just had to keep going and rest after ds was born.







So, I didn't exactly avoid nausea, but it might be helpful to be aware of your position. I'm not saying that position is the only thing that causes nausea, of course, but it doesn't hurt to be aware of the possibility.

hapersmion


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

If you experience pain is there something wrong with you?

what use does pain have in a body? can the body be helped by the sense of or lack of pain?

----------------------
I have 4 children and with the first- the feelings were surprising - and in one sense I could say painful- in another it was a very different pain- look I can be upset all day from just a hang nail- and labor did not feel like a hang nail- it was a bigger experience than I could even really speak of with the language tools I have. in essence it is the process of becoming a mother, and you are shifted from the inside out- things hurt more when I was frighted or distracted in ways that were not comfortable- my younger sister was staying with me at the time and she had some friend over they were in the living room - and the noise they were making intruded- made me less settled and in more pain when they were quiet I could focus more- I kicked them out of the house--I was learning and my body was teaching me... that is what was happening and yelling out did not help for me-- it really works for me to be a centered as I can be- even self-centered/but really I mean birth centered tune really in find the places I felt safest - I even went and did a hospital tour because I hadn't gotten around to doing that yet- the old nurses there were so seasoned one said I think we will be seeing you later tonight- there were so many push pull things- none of it was completely comfortable- I think that our socialization is complex and how we feel safe- may also tug against how we feel instinctually safe -- I went to the hospital after midnight and was in active labor- probably 5 cm- from then on it is very blurry to me I was very altered and at a point disassociated because they were intruding on me , the shave, now the other women laboring was not scary-- being strapped down - spoken rough to- yelled at this all felt like violence- so yes there was pain and I disassociated the brutality of the rest is what hurt- the physical discomfort of labor not the thing not the pain I couldn't live with the intrusions of others- the internal struggle that put me there fear for my life and the baby's life- I felt safe and unsafe there-- yes that struggle caused pain- I could feel things the weight of the lights on me- then fear of the people in the room when I was screamed at--- things I know I was loaded with endorphins- in pregnancy I had hit my wrist against the edge of a dresser that I had moved into the hall way- stupid place to have put the dresser but any how it actually broke my wrist- I told the doc and he just thought I had carpel tunnel -- well during pushing- legs in high stirrups head of the bed flat- I had to pull myself up with the stirrup bars inorder to be more upright- with each push didn't feel a thing in my wrist not one thing- this arm did have a break and was put into a cast later - so should have hurt like h-l but didn't even through most of my labor too-- but after yes--
I think that pain in labor triggers things- endorphins for you and the baby, and there are other things it can tell you to move do something- this is just one of my births and the one that taught me how to find my way in labor.
----------
I have other thoughs on pain like DH has such a tolerance to pain that he doesn't feel things that would normally warn a person away from doing things- he has reflux disease and the only way he knew it was when he couldn't swallow food any more- because of the swelling and ulcers in his throat-if I get 5 minutes of heart burn I am in tears and drinking water or doing something to soothe the pain- now if he could feel the acid burning his throat he would be warned and could have prevented --- also when he had an appendicitis he would have said a pain level of 2 on a scale of 1-10, and he could have died from it but I knew something was wrong- and insisted on having further investigation- after the imaging and surgery the doctor was certianly sheepish- yes very very infected and enlarged appendix-doc felt that DH should come with a warning label because he doesn't have a normal pain sense---


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
I think that people who gloss over how much it really hurts are doing first timers a disservice. The main reason I collapsed and asked for drugs was how totally unexpected the pain, and the *wrong* feeling of that pain was. I fell hook line and sinker for the "it's just hard work" line, and of course ignored anyone who patronisingly said I'd scream for drugs.

If just one person had said "yes, it hurts like nothing you'll ever feel again, and you will be convinced it's going terribly wrong, and will want to die from the pain, but you can do, just aim to be alive at the end". Then I would have had better preparation.

YES, YES, YES!

I, too, fell for the "it's just hard work" line, and was completely unprepared for feeling like I was being slowly tortured to death.


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## jljeppson (Jul 18, 2004)

As I said before, I think it's POSSIBLE for all labors to be pain free, but it depends on so many factors, as mentioned before genetics etc, that have to be accounted for that overall it is very rare. I do think, however, that in every case the amount of pain can at least be diminished, if not entirely gotten rid of. With my excruciating back labor with DS #4, whenever my hubby pressed on a certain part of my back the pain was relieved. I still felt the contractions, but the overwhelming pain was gone. I've never told any soon to be mom that I've been friends with or worked with not to expect pain, that it's just hard work. Goes back to the too many variables thing. I've made it clear that, unless somethings wrong, if they feel pain no matter what it will be pain they can deal with and remind them that when they get to the I can't do it anymore stage they are probably in transition and almost done, but never that they won't feel pain. I've felt it myself, so why would I set them up for an ideal that may not happen? I've definitely worked with moms that have felt they were going to die, but when reassured that nothing was wrong and everything was going the way it should they have always been comforted and felt a renewed resolve that they can go on. As for the nausea, I've never had it. I get super tired when I am around 2-3 mths for a month or so, but no morning sickness. I've read that food sensitivites can play a part in morning sickness; if your body is dealing with stuff it doesn't like than the hormonal changes of pregnancies is going to make it even more stressed possibly leading to morning sickness. Just goes back to the too many variables thing.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

I gave birth 4 times: only the last time did I have a wonderful and easy labour! What did I do different? I was allowed to labour in peace and quiet with DH in a dark and relaxing bedroom at the birth center. I was able to deeply relax and focus AND I had a very good meal as soon as I arrived there. It was fantastic and truly how I always hoped giving birth would be.

So yes, I believe that women can have virtually or truly pain free labours if they are allowed to follow their instincts, listen to their bodies, relax and embrace the experience.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
I have a question - hope it's not too OT - if pain is based on your belief or expectation of pain, can the same be said for nausea? I'm curious how many mamas here avoided the discomfort of pregnancy-related nausea using the same techniques as for avoiding birth-related pain?

I do have nausea, but but I have learned to concentrate, relax and make the worse part of it go away. It takes a little while, but I have not vomited due to pregnancy nausea since last time.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mwherbs* 
If you experience pain is there something wrong with you?

what use does pain have in a body? can the body be helped by the sense of or lack of pain?


These two questions are so important to ask oneself!!

I asked these after the birth of my first child and I found the answers that made sense to me in Adrienne Lieberman's book "Easing Labor Pain". I especially liked the section on whether pain has a place or purpose in labor or if everyone were "supposed" to have totally pain-free childbirth experiences if they "did" enough to make it happen. ooooohhh, such a touchy subject! I would say each woman has to find her own answers. I enjoyed reading yours.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jljeppson* 
I've definitely worked with moms that have felt they were going to die, but when reassured that nothing was wrong and everything was going the way it should they have always been comforted and felt a renewed resolve that they can go on.

Those moms are lucky to have someone reassuring them, who has been there. That can make such a difference to a mother in the moment who can't see "outside" of the reality of the moment. Birth is so real and present!

And the questions at the heart of this thread is of physical pain, but what about emotional pain or dread? Many women also experience feelings of trauma from past life experiences (or abuse) brought up during the labor and birth.

I know the physical sensations were disturbing to me, but it was the emotional "reality" of it that caused me the most distress. And after the birth, I bled and fainted and couldn't sleep for at least four days straight as every time I drifted off, I felt like I was falling off a cliff and I would die. Yikes. For me, the sensations of labor are bearable, but the emotional challenges have been what I work on releasing the most.

Isn't it interesting how labor and birth are so very different for each woman, and for each pregnancy? I feel so much gratitude for the possibility birth offers me to release my pains and traumas and heal. I felt "reborn" as a person after my second pregnancy and birth and the effort I went to to examine myself and the experience was worth it so I could overcome the negativity of the first experience. I say to anyone who wants to heal from a past experience, it can happen, and I did have inner power, but I also received support and strength from many other sources, too. Thank goodness for other caring women!


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
YES, YES, YES!

I, too, fell for the "it's just hard work" line, and was completely unprepared for feeling like I was being slowly tortured to death.

Or how about every homebirth is a good birth? I wish someone would have said it's not all about "where" you give birth always, but more of what you "bring" to your experience that can make the difference, whether at home, hospital, birth center or car in the parking lot. I had the impression that if I gave birth at home, then everything would be peachy, and it wasn't so for me. Ahhh, life experience lessons.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenthumb3* 
Or how about every homebirth is a good birth? I wish someone would have said it's not all about "where" you give birth always, but more of what you "bring" to your experience that can make the difference, whether at home, hospital, birth center or car in the parking lot. I had the impression that if I gave birth at home, then everything would be peachy, and it wasn't so for me. Ahhh, life experience lessons.

I agree that a birth won't automatically be wonderful just because it happens at home. However, from my own experience, giving birth at a hospital made it VERY DIFFICULT for me to bring anything to the experience. All the people walking in, all the lights, the noise, the pressure. For me, where I give birth has a HUGE effect on the outcome.


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## mikayla's mama (May 22, 2005)

I don't have time to read all the replies so I'm just going to throw in my two cents.

I had an induction with my first and it was horribly painful. Then when I had my second baby all natural it really wasn't too bad. I think the worst part of it was my expectation of pain because I only had one delivery to compare it to.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jljeppson* 
I've made it clear that, unless somethings wrong, if they feel pain no matter what it will be pain they can deal with and remind them that when they get to the I can't do it anymore stage they are probably in transition and almost done

That's what I thought, too, but I was at that stage before I was dilated to 1.







: I had a posterior baby and back labor, but I don't know if that should really count as something "wrong." It's normal, just harder.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt* 
I agree that a birth won't automatically be wonderful just because it happens at home. However, from my own experience, giving birth at a hospital made it VERY DIFFICULT for me to bring anything to the experience. All the people walking in, all the lights, the noise, the pressure. For me, where I give birth has a HUGE effect on the outcome.

Oh, yes. I can't imagine myself relaxing anywhere else but at my home now. I would be on edge 100% of the time at any hospital in my town. I do know moms who can relax and have a positive labor in the hospital (hypnobirthing and a doula helped my friend to have such an experience), so it is possible. Knowing what works for the individual is key.

I think the important thing (and just rolling with my train of thought here, not necessarily replying to anything you wrote) is to not look for or accept a "magic solution" or formula for a good experience. What looks like a good experience for one mom may actually be terrible for another, and what looks like a terrible experience to someone else may be a positive one for the mom. For instance, a local childbirth instructor here ended up with a homebirth transport to C section with a footling breech. She wasn't thrilled with the birth, but could accept it and work with it. On the topic of pain, if a mother experiences pain during labor and/or birth, that doesn't mean the experience was not meaningful and special to her in its own way, as I think the above example could suggest.

I do know that my first experience wasn't physically terrible, speaking of pain. It was the most painful experience in birthing I have had, to cpmare it to my second son's birth: relatively short labor, homebirth, breastfeeding was rocky but ended up ok. To everyone else, it looked like a "good birth" (my midwife wondered what I was complaining about), but inside, I was really traumatized emotionally. You never can tell just by looking at the experience from the outside. Now, I do want to be open and see what I can make of this third baby's labor and birth and I do feel that it will be positive, whatever way it happens. I have an emotional/mental strategy, but am flexible. I know how I want to approach labor and have a mental image of what I'd like to create for the birth, but I know things can be different than expected and I open myself up to that possibility, to embrace the end result, however it happens. Kinda tough to explain in words.

A woman really needs to find what works for her best, not what her childbirth educator did or her mother or her friend or whatever. Learn about the ideas and experiences, try things out, and follow what feels best to you.

I have a question for the OP, to get more of an idea of what it is you are wanting yo know: What is it about physical pain in labor that interests you?

Do you wonder if pain has a purpose in labor for women? Do you wonder if no pain is the key for a good experience to take place for the mother/baby? Do you just wonder if it's possible for you to have a pain-free labor? Are you just curious to see what mothers here will say?

Most importantly, do you feel like your questions were adequately answered?


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

I had a home water birth and the only part that I would describe as "painful" was when dd crowned for about an hour... the burning was about as painful as it got. The contractions were mightily uncomfortable, but were more like getting an intense backrub from a PT for my tendonitis in my right shoulder. Things were moving and it was uncomfortable, but it wasn't like something was broken or in serious pain.

I think I did orgasm (or I at least came very close) during the pushing phase... it felt really great to push and it felt good to feel her head go down through the birth canal. The crowning was the worst part, IMO, but that could have been because it was so LONG. Her hand was up by her head which is why it took so long. I'm really hoping this babe's hand is born AFTER his/her head.

Though... had dd not crowned for so long then I would have torn terribly. As it was, I had a tiny split and didn't need any stitches. So it *was* worth the long crowning in the end. In a hospital I'm certain that I would have been given an episiotomy.

love and peace.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

I may end up sounding like an out-there freak LOL but it's not just the laboring woman's fear that affects her birth. The thoughts, feelings, and ideas of _everyone around her_ affect her experience. If you are surrounded by people who believe birth is absolutely excrutiating, that contributes to your sensation of pain.

Also, there is a big difference between reading "Birth pain is because of fear" and going on to have a painless birth. Because it's so much deeper than intellectual knowledge. You're dealing with the subconscious at that point, and every message about birth that you've received your entire life. And that's not something that can be altered simply by accepting an idea as probably true.

I do think its' important for women to understand that pain is common, is in fact the norm *for our culture* and that it doesn't mean anything is wrong; they are well-equipped to handle any pain that comes their way. In my painful births, the pain was not the most important thing in the birth. Labor pains is not the same thing as having someone hit you with a hammer in the foot every two minutes. It's not the same as a broken leg. It is a different kind of pain entirely, and even the wimpiest women can find themselves birthing like warriors through labor pain.

I think it's also important to know that painless births are possible, and that in some cultures, it's the norm. And that by working through some of our underlying assumptions about birth, we might be able to break free of some of that pain as well.


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## jljeppson (Jul 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Collinsky* 
it's not just the laboring woman's fear that affects her birth. The thoughts, feelings, and ideas of _everyone around her_ affect her experience. If you are surrounded by people who believe birth is absolutely excrutiating, that contributes to your sensation of pain.
I think it's also important to know that painless births are possible, and that in some cultures, it's the norm. And that by working through some of our underlying assumptions about birth, we might be able to break free of some of that pain as well.

I'll definitely agree with that. During my studies I've read a lot of birth stories including one of a particular woman that was having a difficult labor and delivery. Turned out there were major problems between her and the dad (not married and he had initially wanted an abortion) that was making things more difficult than they had to be. The father ended up being asked to leave until the time for delivery and mom tensed up again during it. Afterwards the baby had absolutely no desire to breathe. She was alert and healthy, but wasn't interested in breathing on her own no matter what the midwife did. Wise woman ended up telling the parents that their daughter felt loved and secure in the womb and that she could feel the tension between her parents during and after the birth and did not want to give up the security she had felt previously. Both parents were encouraged to express their love for her and to assure her she was wanted and welcomed. Only after that did she begin to breathe. Frankly, this is the kind of story that I can be very skeptical about but I've seen the effects a parents feelings can have on a child and have to believe that a laboring mother or a newborn can be stressed, even endangered, by the feelings of others present.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Birth&Bunnies posted the article below in another thread here and I thought it fit pretty well into this discussion, too. Great thread going!

Ecstatic Birth: The Hormonal Blueprint of Labor Mothering Magazine - Issue 111, March/April 2002
By Sarah J. Buckley

Giving birth in ecstasy: this is our birthright and our body's intent. Mother Nature, in her wisdom, prescribes birthing hormones that
take us outside (ec) our usual state (stasis) so that we can be transformed on every level as we enter motherhood. This exquisite
hormonal orchestration unfolds optimally when birth is undisturbed, enhancing safety for both mother and baby. Science is also
increasingly discovering what we realize as mothers- that our way of birth affects us life-long, mother and child, and that an ecstatic
birth, a birth that takes us beyond our Self, is the gift of a lifetime.
Four major hormonal systems are active during labor and birth. These involve oxytocin, the hormone of love; endorphins, hormones
of pleasure and transcendence; epinephrine and norepinephrine, hormones of excitement; and prolactin, the mothering hormone.
These systems are common to all mammals and originate in our mammalian or middle brain, also known as the limbic system. For
birth to proceed optimally, this part of the brain must take precedence over the neocortex, or rational brain. This shift can be helped
by an atmosphere of quiet and privacy, with, for example, dim lighting and little conversation, and no expectation of rationality from the
laboring woman. Under such conditions a woman intuitively will choose the movements, sounds, breathing, and positions that will birth
her baby most easily. This is her genetic and hormonal blueprint.
All of these systems are adversely affected by current birth practices. Hospital environments and routines are not conducive to the
shift in consciousness that giving birth naturally requires. A woman's hormonal physiology is further disturbed by practices such as
induction, the use of painkillers and epidurals, caesarean surgery, and separation of mother and baby after birth.

Hormones in Birth
Oxytocin
Perhaps the best-known birth hormone is oxytocin, the hormone of love, which is secreted during sexual activity, male and female
orgasm, birth, and breastfeeding. Oxytocin engenders feelings of love and altruism; as Michel Odent says, "Whatever the facet of Love
we consider, oxytocin is involved."
Oxytocin is made in the hypothalamus, the "master gland" deep in our brains, and stored in the posterior pituitary, from where it is
released in pulses. It is a crucial hormone in reproduction and mediates what have been called the ejection reflexes: the sperm
ejection reflex with male orgasm (and the corresponding sperm introjection reflex with female orgasm); the fetal ejection reflex at birth
(a phrase coined by Odent for the powerful contractions at the end of an undisturbed labor, which birth the baby quickly and easily);
and, postpartum, the placental ejection reflex and the milk ejection, or let-down reflex, in breastfeeding.
As well as reaching peak levels in each of these situations, oxytocin is secreted in large amounts in pregnancy, when it acts to enhance
nutrient absorption, reduce stress, and conserve energy by making us more sleepy. Oxytocin also causes the rhythmic uterine
contractions of labor, and levels peak at birth through stimulation of stretch receptors in a woman's lower vagina as the baby
descends. The high levels continue after bir th, culminating with the birth of the placenta, and then gradually subside.
The baby also produces oxytocin during labor, perhaps even initiating labor; so, in the minutes after birth, both mother and baby are
bathed in an ecstatic cocktail of hormones. At this time ongoing oxytocin production is enhanced by skin-to-skin and eye-to-eye contact
and by the baby's first suckling. Good levels of oxytocin also protect against postpartum hemorrhage by ensuring good uterine
contractions. In breastfeeding, oxytocin mediates the let-down reflex and is released in pulses as the baby suckles. During the months
and years of lactation, oxytocin continues to keep the mother relaxed and well nourished. One researcher calls it "a very efficient
antistress situation which prevents a lot of disease later on." In her study, mothers who breastfed for more than seven weeks were
calmer than mothers who did not. Outside its role in reproduction, oxytocin is secreted in other situations of love and altruism, for
example, sharing a meal. Researchers have implicated malfunctions of the oxytocin system in conditions such as schizophrenia,
autism, cardiovascular disease, and drug dependency, and have suggested that oxytocin may mediate the antidepressant effect of
drugs such as Prozac.

Beta-endorphin
As a naturally occurring opiate, beta-endorphin has properties similar to meperidine (pethidine, Demerol), morphine, and heroin, and
has been shown to work on the same receptors of the brain. Like oxytocin, beta-endorphin is secreted from the pituitary gland, and
high levels are present during sex, pregnancy, birth, and breastfeeding. Beta-endorphin is also a stress hormone, released under
conditions of duress and pain, when it acts as an analgesic and, like other stress hormones, suppresses the immune system. This
effect may be important in preventing a pregnant mother's immune system from acting against her baby, whose genetic material is
foreign to hers.
Like the addictive opiates, beta-endorphin induces feelings of pleasure, euphoria, and dependency or, with a partner, mutual dependency.
Beta-endorphin levels are high in pregnancy and increase throughout labor, when levels of beta-endorphin and corticotrophin
(another stress hormone) reach those found in male endurance athletes during maximal exercise on a treadmill. Such high levels help
the laboring woman to transmute pain and enter the altered state of consciousness that characterizes an undisturbed birth.
Beta-endorphin has complex and incompletely understood relationships with other hormonal systems. In labor, high levels will inhibit
oxytocin release. It makes sense that when pain or stress levels are very high, contractions will slow, thus "rationing labour according
to both physiological and psychological stress." Beta-endorphin also facilitates the release of prolactin during labor, which prepares
the mother's breasts for lactation and also aids in the final stages of lung maturation for the baby. Beta-endorphin is also important in
breastfeeding. Levels peak in the mother at 20 minutes, and beta-endorphin is present as well in breastmilk, inducing pleasure and
mutual dependency for both mother and baby in their ongoing relationship.

Fight-or-Flight Hormones
The hormones epinephrine and norepinephrine (adrenaline and noradrenaline) are also known as the fight-or-flight hormones or,
collectively, as catecholamines (CAs). They are secreted from the adrenal gland, above the kidney, in response to stresses such as
fright, anxiety, hunger, or cold, as well as excitement, when they activate the sympathetic nervous system for fight or flight.
In the first stage of labor, high CA levels inhibit oxytocin production, therefore slowing or inhibiting labor. CAs also act to reduce blood
flow to the uterus and placenta, and therefore to the baby. This makes sense for mammals birthing in the wild, where the presence of
danger would activate this sympathetic response, inhibiting labor and diverting blood to the major muscle groups so that the mother
can flee to safety.
In humans, high levels of CAs have been associated with longer labor and adverse fetal heart rate patterns. After an undisturbed
labor, however, when the moment of birth is imminent, these hormones act in a different way. There is a sudden increase in CA levels,
especially noradrenaline, which activates the fetal ejection reflex. The mother experiences a sudden rush of energy; she will be upright
and alert, with a dry mouth and shallow breathing and perhaps the urge to grasp something. She may express fear, anger, or excitement,
and the CA rush will cause several very strong contractions, which will birth the baby quickly and easily.
Some birth attendants have made good use of this reflex when a woman is having difficulties in the second stage of labor. For
example, an anthropologist working with an indigenous Canadian tribe recorded that when a woman was having difficulty in birth, the
young people of the village would gather together to help. They would suddenly and unexpectedly shout out close to her, with the shock
triggering her fetal ejection reflex and a quick birth.
After the birth, CA levels drop steeply. The new mother may feel shaky or cold as a consequence. A warm atmosphere is important, as
ongoing high CA levels will inhibit oxytocin and therefore increase the risk of postpartum hemorrhage.
Noradrenaline, as part of the ecstatic cocktail, is also implicated in instinctive mothering behavior. Mice bred to be deficient in noradrenaline
will not care for their young after birth unless noradrenaline is injected back into their system.
For the baby also, birth is an exciting and stressful event, reflected in high CA levels. These assist the baby during birth by protecting
against the effects of hypoxia (lack of oxygen) and subsequent acidosis. High CA levels at birth ensure that the baby is wide-eyed and
alert at first contact with the mother. The baby's CA levels also drop rapidly after an undisturbed birth, being soothed by contact with
the mother.

Prolactin
Known as the mothering hormone, prolactin is the major hormone of breastmilk synthesis and breastfeeding. Traditionally it has been
thought to produce aggressively protective behavior (the "mother tiger" effect) in lactating females. Levels of prolactin increase in
pregnancy, although milk production is inhibited hormonally until the placenta is delivered. Levels further increase in labor and peak at
birth. Prolactin is also a hormone of submission or surrender (in primate troops, the dominant male has the lowest prolactin level)
and produces some degree of anxiety. In the breastfeeding relationship, these effects activate the mother's vigilance and help her to
put her baby's needs first. The baby also produces prolactin while in the womb, and high levels are found in amniotic fluid, possibly of
uterine or placental origin.30 The function of prolactin in the baby is unknown.

Undisturbed Birth
Undisturbed birth is exceedingly rare in our culture, even in birth centers and homebirths. Two factors that disturb bir th in all mammals
are firstly being in an unfamiliar place and secondly the presence of an observer. Feelings of safety and privacy thus seem to be
fundamental. Yet the entire system of Western obstetrics is devoted to observation of pregnant and birthing women, by both people
and machines; when birth isn't going smoothly, obstetricians respond with yet more intense observation. It is indeed amazing that any
woman can give birth under such conditions. Some writers have observed that, for a woman, having a baby has a lot of parallels with
making a baby: same hormones, same parts of the body, same sounds, and the same needs for feelings of safety and privacy. How
would it be to attempt to make love in the conditions under which we expect women to give birth?
For birthing Maia Rose, my fourth baby, I arranged a situation where I felt very safe and very private, and I had my shortest, easiest,
and most ecstatic labor and birth-one and a half hours with an 8-pound, unexpectedly breech baby. I believe this birth proceeded
optimally because I was totally free to follow my instincts, and because I felt safe and private. Each woman must labor where, and with
whom, she feels safest, and my situation would not suit everyone. But it underscores the huge gap between what was ideal for me and
my baby, physiologically and hormonally, and the standard care offered in most hospitals.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Collinsky* 
I may end up sounding like an out-there freak LOL but it's not just the laboring woman's fear that affects her birth. The thoughts, feelings, and ideas of _everyone around her_ affect her experience. If you are surrounded by people who believe birth is absolutely excrutiating, that contributes to your sensation of pain.


Oh, yes, I can agree with this statement! BTDT, too.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Collinsky* 
Also, there is a big difference between reading "Birth pain is because of fear" and going on to have a painless birth. Because it's so much deeper than intellectual knowledge. You're dealing with the subconscious at that point, and every message about birth that you've received your entire life. And that's not something that can be altered simply by accepting an idea as probably true.

I do think its' important for women to understand that pain is common, is in fact the norm *for our culture* and that it doesn't mean anything is wrong; they are well-equipped to handle any pain that comes their way. In my painful births, the pain was not the most important thing in the birth. Labor pains is not the same thing as having someone hit you with a hammer in the foot every two minutes. It's not the same as a broken leg. It is a different kind of pain entirely, and even the wimpiest women can find themselves birthing like warriors through labor pain.

I think it's also important to know that painless births are possible, and that in some cultures, it's the norm. And that by working through some of our underlying assumptions about birth, we might be able to break free of some of that pain as well.

I trimmed your post a little, but I think everything I wanted to respond to is here. There are several things:

1) "Other cultures". I'm never sure what to think about this one. I haven't done a lot of research into what other cultures expect from birth. But, two things strike me when I hear this. First of all, how do we know how much pain another woman is experiencing when she's giving birth, whether she's from another culture, or our own? Have there been studies asking how much pain, if any, women from other cultures feel, or are we simply jumping to conclusions based on observed behaviour during labour/birth? Secondly, how do we know whether this is a cultural difference, or an actual physical difference? Cultures which have been isolated from each other for long periods of time do develop physical changes (skin colour being one of the most obvious...and divisive *sigh*). It seems to me to be entirely possible that a culture in which painless birth is the norm may very well be benefiting from a genetic edge. There are certainly women here who have very differing experiences of birth pain, even with similar expectations - just as some women have longer average gestation periods than others, or have more or less frequent periods. Pregnancy, labour and birth are different from one woman to another, because of the way our bodies work. I can't see any reason to assume that pain can't be part of that.

2) I'm still wondering how the belief that the pain is all, or largely, due to our expectations as mothers accounts for pain when a woman doesn't know she's in labour. As I said earlier, my first labour started with an unrelenting, very painful backache. I spent several hours trying to ease it without suspecting in the least that I was in labour. I wasn't "due" for another week and a half, and it was my first baby - the pain wasn't in waves. I had no idea what was going on - but it hurt like hell. Even with ds2 - I was in a state of extreme emotional turmoil when labour started (the OB had told me just a few hours earlier that if I didn't show up for my scheduled section, he'd leave me with no caregiver), and labour was the last thing on my mind. I was sitting venting about the doctor, and started getting extremely painful "cramps". The pains were just like severe menstrual cramps - something I've also heard explained as "we get them because we're expecting them". (That's also bogus. I had no reason to expect cramp with my cycles, and almost never got them. The few times I did, they were brutal - but they were very, very rare.) The pains continued all night, and I knew I was in labour from the pain. If the pain only happens because we expect labour to hurt...then why does it hurt _before_ we know we're in labour? A friend of my mom's slept through most of her early labour and woke up when she was almost in transition - thinking she was going to spend hours in that kind of pain. Why did it hurt when she was asleep and didn't even know she was labouring? She pushed the baby out only a little while later. Why are so many women _surprised_ to find that pushing hurts so much more/less than they thought it would?

3) If labour pain happens because we expect it to...where did the expectation come from in the first place? Generations of women laboured without pain, then one day, a woman thought, "OMG - that must hurt" and had a brutal labour? I mean...where does the expectation come from, if the pain is a construct of the expectation?

I just don't quite buy this whole mindset. I do think we need to focus on trying to lesson the "demon" aspect of pain...in birth, and in our culture as a whole. Pain is part of life - it's not going away anytime soon. Do I want to embrace it? Not really...but I don't want to live my whole life trying to avoid something that's an inevitable part of being human, either.

ETA: I also want to mention that, while I believe the negativity of people around you can have a negative effect (I've done the hospital thing - terrifying...post-partum, as well as before the birth), my very painful labour with ds1 was when I was all alone. I hadn't called a caregiver, as I saw no reason to, and my ex was in bed asleep.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

1) "Other cultures". I'm never sure what to think about this one. I haven't done a lot of research into what other cultures expect from birth.

"Culture plays a significant role in attitudes toward childbirth pain, the definition of the meaning of childbirth pain, perceptions of pain, and coping mechanisms used to manage the pain of childbirth. According to Schuiling and Sampselle (1999, p. 77), nurses can provide comfort in the presence of pain. Pain does not have to be eliminated for women to be comforted, and comforting diminishes pain. The significance of comfort cannot be over emphasized (Jimenez, 2000)." Another perspective here.

I learned a lot from Adrienne Lieberman's book about dealing with pain in labor and her chapter about the concept of pain in a cross-cultural perspective was intriguing and seemed to resonate better with me than the pat answer given by some people that " all women in Africa would birth their babies and then work in the fields 5 minutes later".

If you look at illustrations of Native American women, women from other centuries in England, etc. etc, you'll find them in various positions that ease "pain" and that help a woman's body work productively (ie: hanging from a tree branch or pulling on a rope tied to the ceiling). In one culture (can't think of which one/s), a special blend of herbs to dull the pain was given, and stories go on and on. These are cultures where there are no doctors, nor hospitals, but the reality of childbirth was as real then as it is now.

There are also stories and accounts given by women and also be attendants that describe painless births. Read about some here, if you are interested.

To really make sense of the question, one needs to read both (many?) perspectives on the question.

There is so much to read and learn about. To OP: Yes, painless labor and birth is possible for some (many?), but if it doesn't happen for you, should you feel guilty, as though you'd done something wrong? NO! Perhaps ask if things *could* have been done differently to facilitate less pain, but accept you did your best. This allows for learning and growth in a healthy way. If you want a pain-lessened or free delivery, should you give up b/c someone else had pain in labor? NO! Make decisions that fit your own needs and have faith in something.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenthumb3* 
"Culture plays a significant role in attitudes toward childbirth pain, the definition of the meaning of childbirth pain, perceptions of pain, and coping mechanisms used to manage the pain of childbirth. According to Schuiling and Sampselle (1999, p. 77), nurses can provide comfort in the presence of pain. Pain does not have to be eliminated for women to be comforted, and comforting diminishes pain. The significance of comfort cannot be over emphasized (Jimenez, 2000)." Another perspective here.

I learned a lot from Adrienne Lieberman's book about dealing with pain in labor and her chapter about the concept of pain in a cross-cultural perspective was intriguing and seemed to resonate better with me than the pat answer given by some people that " all women in Africa would birth their babies and then work in the fields 5 minutes later".

If you look at illustrations of Native American women, women from other centuries in England, etc. etc, you'll find them in various positions that ease "pain" and that help a woman's body work productively (ie: hanging from a tree branch or pulling on a rope tied to the ceiling). In one culture (can't think of which one/s), a special blend of herbs to dull the pain was given, and stories go on and on. These are cultures where there are no doctors, nor hospitals, but the reality of childbirth was as real then as it is now.

This is all interesting stuff (I'm familiar with quite a bit of it), but I don't see how that has anything to do with other cultures having "pain free" births. It means they actually work with the pain, manage the pain, and expect the pain to be bearable - that's not the same thing as not expecting, or not having, pain.

Quote:

There are also stories and accounts given by women and also be attendants that describe painless births. Read about some here, if you are interested.
I've heard and read many of these stories. I just don't consider them to be terribly relevant to the OP. I've talked to women who had pain-free c-sections, too...I don't think that means that surgery only hurts because we expect it to, yk?

Quote:

There is so much to read and learn about. To OP: Yes, painless labor and birth is possible for some (many?), but if it doesn't happen for you, should you feel guilty, as though you'd done something wrong? NO! Perhaps ask if things *could* have been done differently to facilitate less pain, but accept you did your best. This allows for learning and growth in a healthy way. If you want a pain-lessened or free delivery, should you give up b/c someone else had pain in labor? NO! Make decisions that fit your own needs and have faith in something.
I'm interested in the fact that you're mentioned "no pain" and "less pain" all bunched up together. I'm pretty sure I've had less pain (with the caveat that I haven't ever pushed out a baby) than many women in labour. I just don't see where that ties into having a "no pain" birth.


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## sphinxie (Feb 28, 2006)

I certainly think it's possible to have a pain-free and orgasmic birth, but I think it's probably related to more than just belief.


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## jljeppson (Jul 18, 2004)

Having had it both (painful births and pain free ones) ways would I say that there was something wrong with my painful births? My hospital birth, yes. My other home births, no. There is absolutely nothing I could have done more to deal with my posterior baby than follow what my body told me, which in this case was to lie down giving him the opportunity to readjust. There are things I could have done to make my 1st HB less painful, which frankly was only painful for the few minutes I was in transition, which was to lie on my side when I needed to lie down instead of on my back (wasn't exactly thinking clearly just then) and it probably would have been pain free the whole time as well. The 1st birth it was my forgetting to not lie on my back that caused me pain, the 2nd birth it was the positioning of the baby. So for at least one I couldn't have done anything to erase the pain, though I did do things that made it bearable. Again I don't think there was anything wrong with that birth, there were circumstances beyond my control that made it the way it was, and the delivery is one of my most treasured memories. I don't think pain in child birth is essential (In what way WOULD it be essential? Physically, spiritually, emotionally? We know children learn and develop better when taught without using pain as a teaching tool, so why would we as adults need it?), it just happens. Sometimes you have it, sometimes you don't but in no way is it needed. The Catholic church many, many yrs ago (we're talking centuries) used to feel that pain was essential for the birth of a child and a mother that didn't feel enough pain would be punished or in extreme cases killed. Maybe that's (not the Catholic church in particular, but that type of mentality) is how we came to believe that pain was a normal part of childbirth. When midwives were prevelant dr's were only called in to assist with the complicated delivery's and around the time drs started taking over the birthing process in America the main people they were seeing were the wealthy women who weren't very active and whose diets and clothing styles weren't healthy. These women knew nothing about their bodies and it's not surprising they had hard births. Also, when women started to go to the hospital it was a cold unwelcoming place where everything was designed to facilitate the dr's comfort during delivery not the mother's and they in turn again had harder more stressful delivery's. That's part of where the dr "all birth is dangerous and painful" mentality came from. It was all they knew. Somehow we have bought into the "Giving birth always hurts and that's the way it is" line. It's not true and does not apply to everyone woman. I would predict as birth education (TRUE education, not what the masses are taught in sex ed) improves and spreads the number of pain free births will rise. Not all women will have it that way and not all women who have one will have it with every birth (case in point, me), but it won't matter because we will have done it OUR way. I have been happy and satisfied with all my birth experiences (even the not as thrilling 1st; overall I birthed the way I wanted to and I definitely went home with the prize), pain or no pain. Just knowing I have had the choices I've had and birthing at home has made it possible for me (for some women it may be the hospital that makes them feel more free) to have the 2 pain free births I've had gives me hope that this last has a chance to be pain free as well. Whether it is or not, I will have birthed my way and I will be happy with my birth and my baby. I can't think of a better way to end that stage of my life than at home with my family welcoming my daughter? into the world.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
This is all interesting stuff (I'm familiar with quite a bit of it), but I don't see how that has anything to do with other cultures having "pain free" births. It means they actually work with the pain, manage the pain, and expect the pain to be bearable - that's not the same thing as not expecting, or not having, pain.

Well, I guess it depends on how one looks at it. I think this is relevant to what the OP asked regarding no pain labors/birth. I would love to hear what she is thinking about this thread. I shared those examples not to prove or disprove one idea, like "all birth should be painfree" but to offer a round-about idea of what pain in birth may look like in a cross-cultural perspective. I don't think it's fair to say that my opinion is fact, and I know I appreciate when someone else shares information and lets me decide. What is true for ONE mother, may not be true for another, and that includes it being okay if others don't agree with me. I chose to respond to what you wrote as it brought to mind some ideas and I wanted to expound on them. Since you do not agree with my post being relevant to the OP, I can agree to disagree. I respect your opinion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I've heard and read many of these stories. I just don't consider them to be terribly relevant to the OP. I've talked to women who had pain-free c-sections, too...I don't think that means that surgery only hurts because we expect it to, yk?

If this is what you thought I was implying, then my message got mixed up somewhere. I was sharing the stories as one example of what was possible for some women. It was not meant to be *the* example of what birth should be, or make light of someone's medicalized birth.
FWIW, it is hard to decipher everything a person believes based on a few posts. It would take a real-life conversation of an hour or two to really understand all I really believe to be true about labor, birth, and most importantly, how I feel it applies to me. It sounds like your perception of me is that I am someone who thinks all women just need to relax and change their minds and they can all have pain-free experiences. . If that is what you believe, then I say, no, that's not true, and I would love to talk more in depth with you privately, if you want to know all I do believe. I do believe strongly in a woman's ability to choose how she will approach pregnancy, labor and birth, but I do not say that that stands independent of other factors influencing the birth. I could liken it to being a main ingredient in a multi-faceted recipe. Could you agree with that idea?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I'm interested in the fact that you're mentioned "no pain" and "less pain" all bunched up together. I'm pretty sure I've had less pain (with the caveat that I haven't ever pushed out a baby) than many women in labour. I just don't see where that ties into having a "no pain" birth.

Maybe it doesn't. Maybe the OP just wants to know one answer. I prefer to share what I feel is relevant and if someone disagrees, that's okay with me. I feel all responses are valid, whether one agrees with them or not. If the OP objects, then maybe I'll stop posting along my own train of thoughts and move on elsewhere.

Thanks for taking the time to read my posts and I appreciate your insights and your willingness to discuss them.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenthumb3* 
If this is what you thought I was implying, then my message got mixed up somewhere. I was sharing the stories as one example of what was possible for some women. It was not meant to be *the* example of what birth should be, or make light of someone's medicalized birth.
FWIW, it is hard to decipher everything a person believes based on a few posts. It would take a real-life conversation of an hour or two to really understand all I really believe to be true about labor, birth, and most importantly, how I feel it applies to me. It sounds like your perception of me is that I am someone who thinks all women just need to relax and change their minds and they can all have pain-free experiences. . If that is what you believe, then I say, no, that's not true, and I would love to talk more in depth with you privately, if you want to know all I do believe. I do believe strongly in a woman's ability to choose how she will approach pregnancy, labor and birth, but I do not say that that stands independent of other factors influencing the birth. I could liken it to being a main ingredient in a multi-faceted recipe. Could you agree with that idea?

I definitely agree. Despite the fact that I was replying directly to your posts, I was also responding to the concept that we can more-or-less make our labours pain free. I think that the idea that our expectations are a big part of the labour process is a very valuable one to get "out there". The constant repetition of messages such as "give me the epi in the parking lot" and "get the epi" and "no woman should have to experience pain in labour" is dangerous, imo. I'm just wary of making women who do have pain for physical reasons feel as though they only feel it because they aren't ready enough, yk?

Quote:

Maybe it doesn't. Maybe the OP just wants to know one answer. I prefer to share what I feel is relevant and if someone disagrees, that's okay with me. I feel all responses are valid, whether one agrees with them or not. If the OP objects, then maybe I'll stop posting along my own train of thoughts and move on elsewhere.

Thanks for taking the time to read my posts and I appreciate your insights and your willingness to discuss them.
I hope you don't stop posting. I'm bouncing my idea back off what you write in a very non-structured "first response" kind of way...and it's helping me think through a lot of this stuff. The ways that our thinking, experiences and culture affect the way we labour is on my mind a lot right now. I'm going to be labouring with a scarred (3X) uterus in a few months, and am aware that I have a lot of issues regarding fear and failure (and other things) to work through between then and now. I think this thread is making me balk a little, because I start feeling as though I should _also_ be trying to "re-program" myself into a pain-free birth...which seems like a lot of pressure.


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

you 2 keep posting- lots of info to share and explore. I am enjoying the reading


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
The ways that our thinking, experiences and culture affect the way we labour is on my mind a lot right now. I'm going to be labouring with a scarred (3X) uterus in a few months, and am aware that I have a lot of issues regarding fear and failure (and other things) to work through between then and now. I think this thread is making me balk a little, because I start feeling as though I should _also_ be trying to "re-program" myself into a pain-free birth...which seems like a lot of pressure.

Mmmm...I see. That makes a lot of sense to me. With this information in mind, I wish you all the best on your preparations for labor and your baby's birth. I know the details of your experiences differ from mine, but I do understand some of the mixed feelings of trepidation and hope, especially regarding fear and failure as it relates to childbearing and preparing for the next birth. I am due in about 3 weeks and wondering what goal I am shooting for, or what this experience will be like, as I had a traumatic experience first time round, a very positive experience second time round, and have a question mark for this baby's birth. I like the idea of pain-free labor and birth. Moreso, not so much the "freedom" from pain, but the fulness of joy, the welcoming, no matter the physical sensations. Do what you feel will work for you to have an experience that will be meaningful to you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenthumb3* 
Mmmm...I see. That makes a lot of sense to me. With this information in mind, I wish you all the best on your preparations for labor and your baby's birth. I know the details of your experiences differ from mine, but I do understand some of the mixed feelings of trepidation and hope, especially regarding fear and failure as it relates to childbearing and preparing for the next birth. I am due in about 3 weeks and wondering what goal I am shooting for, or what this experience will be like, as I had a traumatic experience first time round, a very positive experience second time round, and have a question mark for this baby's birth. I like the idea of pain-free labor and birth. Moreso, not so much the "freedom" from pain, but the fulness of joy, the welcoming, no matter the physical sensations. Do what you feel will work for you to have an experience that will be meaningful to you.









Thanks.









Perhaps some of this for me is that the pain is something I see as part of the process. With dd and ds2, I felt no pain (well, a little with ds2, but I was in _very_ early labour when I was prepped). In fact, I felt nothing physically. I was given a spinal and cut off from my own body for the duration of the surgery. That feeling of being disconnected from myself bothered me - a lot. (I hate anesthetic so much that I have dental fillings done without freezing, simply to avoid the numbness.) I think that at this point, the idea of working for a pain-free birth seems almost counterproductive. Perhaps with more time to consider this, I could separate the pain from the other sensations, but right now, working towards pain free birth feels like working towards the numbness I hate so much...

I'm completely babbling at this point, but it's helping...


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## jljeppson (Jul 18, 2004)

Pain free doesn't mean feeling free. With my 2 7/8 that didn't hurt I still felt the contractions, near the end I had to concentrate on them, but they just didn't hurt. Just felt like any other exercise. A runner will feel their muscles working while doing a workout, but it won't hurt per se. Though with the times I did feel pain, I have to say I almost enjoyed it. Along the lines of, that's one less to get through until the babies here. And, you're doing this at home and doing great YOU ROCK. That type of thing. I get this feeling of euphoria, before/during/after, partially because I'm doing something that my sisters and most of my friends insist can't be done without massive amounts of pain meds and I'M DOING IT WELL. Totally egotistical, I know, but I actually love labor and delivery, pain and all. Gives me this massive sense of validation and makes me want to scream, "I am woman hear me roar!" After this last I don't want any more kids if I have to be the one that raises them, but I have to say that being a surrogate has been a thought in the back of my mind simply because I love being pregnant and delivering. If I could pass the baby off at the end for someone else to get up in the middle of the night with (not this baby, just any I acted as a surrogate for LOL), I would be all good.


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

I read Spiritual Midwifery (the 70's printing?). That was encouraging. The women in it had lots and lots of supportive people. I also read somewhere that it hurt as much as you expect. I knew it would hurt, but knew there were ways to deal with what pain came.

I don't consider myself to have a high tolerance of pain, (hate, hate, hate cramps). But a pp said it helped tremendously knowing there was a purpose and the baby was coming. I agree wholeheartedly!

I had uncomfortable contractions all night, went to hospital at 3:30 am, got in the tub, slept 20 mins. around 7 am and woke up with strong contractions. I was able to have intermittent fetal monitoring, (after initial hookup, they did it so I could move with the monitor on). Ctx got strong at 10-ish am, so got in tub again (not enough room to move in arggh!







) Got out 11:30-12? and wanted something just to take the edge off. I was feeling panicky when it got bad; my DH was GREAT, talking to me, helping me relax thru ctx. The nurse checked me and said I was going to deliver SOON--10-15 mins.. I ended up with her telling me not to push, and pushed twice and was done at 12:57 pm. There was a LOT of pressure from her head, but I didn't tear or need an episiotomy! I'm small-boned and only 5'4". I had a 6lb 7oz girl, and I was thinking as they cleaned me up, "That wasn't so bad."

It hurt more than anything I'd ever felt, but I'll do it again as soon as I get pg again!









So it was worse than anything I'd ever felt, and not as bad as I expected. HTH!


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
In fact, I felt nothing physically. I was given a spinal and cut off from my own body for the duration of the surgery. That feeling of being disconnected from myself bothered me - a lot.

That actually makes sense to me; I did have some sensation during my c-section and I enjoyed being able to feel what was going on. I had an epidural, not a spinal, and I felt something like gentle tugging and pressure on my belly as they did the surgery. I didn't want it to *hurt* - after many hours of painful labor I was glad for the relief - but it was good to have some sense of being connected to what was going on, too.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

I don't believe that for a second. I did find contractions sort of ok to deal with, but that tail bone....OUCH!


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## SuperMoM2GTO (Dec 13, 2006)

Wow! alot has happened on this thread in the few days Ive been away!

I really appreciate everyone's posts on this subject. You all have given me alot more insight then I was counting on







I really realize now that I need to prepare for the pain. I have finished Ina May's book (which is really great and I highly recommend) and between what Ive read through books/the wonderful threads here @ MDC & my own reasoning I feel that, more then anything, coming to terms with the event that will happen, understanding the whys/hows, and learning to let go is ultimately the way I need to focus my attentions.

I do believe there will be pain. How much, I believe, is going to depend on how comfortable I am in the birthing enviroment and the love and support of the people around me.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I don't think it only hurts if we think it will/we are fearful/not open enough/







. I read that stuff when I was pg and I think it was a set up. I thought I'd be all orgasming during my labour, for real. NOTHING could have been further from the truth. It was unbelievable, unimaginable, no-way-is-this-in-my-head PAIN.

We don't tell people that pain comes from their beliefs in other situations. Why do we do this with women in childbirth? Hmm.

ETA - I just noticed the OP is a first time mama to be. Hope my post doesn't freak you out. I think many women have a lot less pain than I did, I think it is physiological. I also think it's good to be prepared for it, get your birth support ppl to learn how to do decent (read: HARD!!) counterpressure, etc. Despite the pain, my birthing experience was one of the highlights of my life.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Good for you, Alicia! Best wishes on your baby's birth!


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 

We don't tell people that pain comes from their beliefs in other situations. Why do we do this with women in childbirth? Hmm.


Adding more of my "cents"







...the fact that a woman feels pain in labor/birth is, I believe, not a woman's failure at "just believing". (There are people who do believe that labor/birth were/are not meant to be painful: Dr. Dick-Read, for instance.)

I do think childbirth, in general, is also very different than getting, say, a root canal with no medication. I don't believe the idea that childbirth, in general, must be excruciatingly painful. I don't know if birth was meant to be totally pain-free, but the fear-tension-pain cycle does make some sense to me.

I think there is much more involved in the entire experience of conceiving, growing, laboring and giving birth to a baby than just mental preparation. Obviously, from examples given by mothers along this thread, lots of things come into play. However, I think there are some interesting things to think about, like you mentioned, having a support system, as well as understanding the physiological aspects of labor (what is actually happening in her body at certain points), proper nutrition--things that can help a mom feel *less* pain during labor and birth.

Yeah, totally beating a dead horse by now. Fun, though.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kerikadi* 
I wouldn't consider my labors painful but pushing is another story. Pushing wasn't bad for my first two that weighed 6/8 and 5/12 with little heads.

Having said that, I don't care how relaxed you are when something comes out of your vagina weighing 9 pounds 8 ounces with a 14.5inch head it's going to hurt! Or an 8/8 baby with compound presenation - OUCH! I wasn't really in pain until baby was presenting. Thankfully I push them out fast









Keri


For me it was the opposite. My most recent labor at home was very painful, I was not prepared for that kind of pain. I was expecting a much easier birth than with my first, but it wasn't, although I would not trade the experience for anything. Now the pushing, the pushing felt GREAT. It was not painful at all. Loved it!


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:

If you look at illustrations of Native American women, women from other centuries in England, etc. etc, you'll find them in various positions that ease "pain" and that help a woman's body work productively
But in England they were still terrified of birth, and of dying in childbirth. Just because they had ways to try and help doesn't mean they were all confident and excited about the prospect of birth.

Quote:

You all have given me alot more insight then I was counting on I really realize now that I need to prepare for the pain. I have finished Ina May's book (which is really great and I highly recommend) and between what Ive read through books/the wonderful threads here @ MDC & my own reasoning I feel that, more then anything, coming to terms with the event that will happen, understanding the whys/hows, and learning to let go is ultimately the way I need to focus my attentions.








For me the realisation that no matter how much it hurts I probably won't die, and it will eventually end are things I wish I'd come to before I laboured!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Okay, sure less fear helps some. If you are all tensed up, unsure what is going on and terrified, of course it is going to hurt more. Sorta like a trip takes longer when you are not sure where you're going, anyone notice that?

But dude. I don't know about anyone else, but I had some PAIN. Hardcore full on pain. Begging, screaming, contemplating suicide PAIN. And all the knowledge and relaxation techniques in the world were not going to undo that reality.

I think the minimizing of the PAIN situation can be really offensive and a set up for women. Some women don't have pain, some women find the pain manageable. But that is not the case for everyone, and I don't think it's as simple and changeable as reducing fear and tension. Not by a long shot.


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

How can labor not hurt?

How can birth be ecstatic?

Pain doesn't feel good!

These are questions and values Mainstream USA has with regard to birthing women, and this thread is a fantastic assalt against un-thought-through assumptions, opening minds and encouraging ideas.

The other day, as I contemplated the painfree birth I recently witnessed as a doula, I realized, hey--*how* many mothers _actually_ have personal experience with this? I think a LOT of mothers do....to some extent.

I'd say my contractions started feeling painful around 2 a.m....but that was 8 hours into my second labor.

So, I personally, have had 8 hours of 'pain free' labor myself. How many other women?

It's not just the crunchy homebirthin' set, either....how many pain-fearing women, who choose epidural anesthesia, can also say that sure, for the first bit of their labors, perhaps did experience segments of pain-free labor.

Therefore: we can all understand there's a continum, there's environment, there's mindset, there's body shape, and all sorts of factors that will cause a woman to say, THIS HURTS or this doesnt.

Anyway, I was better able to grasp and understand the painfree birth I doula'd at, when I realized this.

NEXT thought provoking idea:
intimate relations









For most women (and men) intimate relations are quite pleasureable. There might be times it's more fun, less fun.......but there are women who DO NOT enjoy it, in fact, for them it is painful and horrible. There could be physcial reaons, mental reasons, emotional reasons....each of those is a real and valid reason.

A woman's own assesment of her own sensations are her reality. She's not "wrong" if it hurts, or if it feels good.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Well, but we all know that early labour is not nearly as intense. I don't think that indicates anything about labour in general... active labour... transition. I don't think I get the point.







:


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well, but we all know that early labour is not nearly as intense. I don't think that indicates anything about labour in general... active labour... transition. I don't think I get the point.







:

Yes, we all know that early labor is not nearly as intense. (I sure hope DONA knows _I_ know that!) I'm _not_ trying to be an idiot.

I'm just trying to suggest that one woman is demanding an epidural for relief at 3 cm, and another is not. Why?

And for the epidural-wanting mother, why does she not desire her epidural until her cervix has dialated to 3? Why does someone else not want an epidural until transition?

Early labor hurts less, because it is less intense? For most women, sure....but not for everyone. And not for the women who have pain-free labors and births.

So that brings me to my confusing point, which is: I thought this idea of a spectrum of labor pain, a spectrum that many women have _personally experienced_, might be an easier idea to grasp than the crazy notion that someone could actually push a human body out of her vagina and say it didn't hurt.

That's my point.









It is an exercise to require questioning: why does labor hurt more at this point than at that point? who decides what hurts? who decides when relief is needed? how can those e-z early labor contractions be _just_ as easy during transition for some women?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Oh. Well uh... I totally agree with you.









I started screaming for an epidural at 3 cm. Then with lots of counterpressure I kept going without it. I ended up having a drug free birth, but man did it hurt!

I agree that different women experience different levels of pain. I had a friend who had trouble nursing and she said she would rather go thru labour again than have the nursing drama. I was like: For real?! I'd rather have my nipples chewed off.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Okay, sure less fear helps some. If you are all tensed up, unsure what is going on and terrified, of course it is going to hurt more. Sorta like a trip takes longer when you are not sure where you're going, anyone notice that?

But dude. I don't know about anyone else, but I had some PAIN. Hardcore full on pain. Begging, screaming, contemplating suicide PAIN. And all the knowledge and relaxation techniques in the world were not going to undo that reality.

I think the minimizing of the PAIN situation can be really offensive and a set up for women. Some women don't have pain, some women find the pain manageable. But that is not the case for everyone, and I don't think it's as simple and changeable as reducing fear and tension. Not by a long shot.

I hear you saying that minimizing pain in labor can be a disservice for women, a set up for women. So here's a question for you...

How was it helpful for you to know that labor and birth were going to be very, very painful, like in a way you couldn't control and would just take over? How does *that* help women? I mean, with a real-life example, like, HOW did it help you to prepare for childbirth?

I don't think it's "as simple as reducing fear and tension", either.

Can we agree that all labor does not have to be painful or pain-free. Perhaps there is a middle area, to add into the mix?

*Is there a middle ground* between unrealistic expectations (it's going to be a picnic in the park) and apathy (there's nothing I can do about it, so why try)?


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## SundayInSeptember (Aug 25, 2006)

How about honesty? Just be honest? Leave any agenda at the door and just tell the truth. Can't hurt.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
But in England they were still terrified of birth, and of dying in childbirth. Just because they had ways to try and help doesn't mean they were all confident and excited about the prospect of birth.

Sure, just b/c they used comfort measures or various positions doesn't mean that women in other times and places, in general, all were confident and excited about birth. BUT who is to say they were terrified, either?

Also, it depends on the century, the area of England or whatever one refers to. It helps to look at a specific example(s). Wish I had a book or two handy to pull examples from.

There is a lot we can learn from other people/cultures, etc. I don't believe in the noble savage theories, but I do think it's worthwhile to pay attention to how our worldwide/history-wide sisters approach(ed) childbirth.

We women have been doing this a long time and if birth were so terrible, wouldn't we smart women have found a way to deal with it long ago? Otherwise, we'd have been smart enough to avoid birth altogether!

_Pain can be a signal that something needs to change, namely a position_. If a mother is in stirrups in the hospital and in a great amount of pain, who is to know if she were allowed to even *think* about moving onto her hands and knees that just that simple maneuver would relieve some pain?

If anyone here has read a book including positions to labor in, we know that women were smart enough to figure out positions to lessen pain and to _encourage the birthing process_ (ie: facilitate the baby coming out more efficiently). It makes sense that a man, who has never had the experience of giving birth, came up with the delightful idea for women to give birth lying down, just so he could have a better view. Which is proven to be a very inefficient (and painful) way to birth a baby, compared to side-lying, squatting, hands and knees, and probably a few more I am not listing.

In many cultures today and in the past, hospitals didn't exist or were not available. There are others societies with birth cultures where, though they may not expected to be pain-free, women know birth is normal. They are not always afraid of dying b/c they have witnessed _themselves_ women whom they know personally giving birth and being okay afterward. In America, most women have never ever seen a stretched perineum or open vagina with crowning baby, and their family members may very well have all had C sections. Ina May Gaskin's recent book has stories of the difference it made to women she attended in birth to be able to relax and open themselves wide enough, after seeing an image, a statue or hearing a mantra that encourages them to know they can be "big" enough to birth a baby. Just having that knowledge passed down so simply from woman to woman could do so much, and _is_, as women grow in confidence and spread the word themselves. Ina May has done this, among many other wise women.

Sure, there are cultures that are the antithesis of these birth friendly cultures. But what can we take from them, learn, and turn around for our benefit as women? Can we say, maybe those interventions, that mindset, those imposing viewpoints and unsupportive attitudes make the whole childbearing experience worse than it needs to be? And then go on to ask the questions that need asking, namely: _What facilitates the birth process and can make it endurable?_

Just the perception that birth is normal, that a woman's body opens to birth a baby, and that she is and will be supported by wise, caring women who have done this before can make a world of difference. _NOT that it is a guarantee of perfection of the experience._ But can it make a difference? I propose each woman must think very hard about how that can apply to *her*. Sure, birth could be less painful. But think: can it be that way for *ME*? I believe that was what the OP is referring to when she started this thread. Many women ask this kind of question every day. What will labor be like for _me_? How will I handle it? What can I expect? How do I prepare?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
For me the realisation that no matter how much it hurts I probably won't die, and it will eventually end are things I wish I'd come to before I laboured!

I wonder if we lived in a birth-friendly culture which believes in the normalcy of birth, you, and many other women, _would not have to learn_ _the hard way_that we won't die and things will end eventually (baby will be born) the . It would have been a _given_ that women are strong and our bodies are designed to bear children. It's crazy what we women have to work in this day and age, in our country, to have a normal perception of childbearing.

I honestly am glad you found something to help you through your experience. We women are all in this together, trying to make sense of a power we all have, to bear children.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SundayInSeptember* 
How about honesty? Just be honest? Leave any agenda at the door and just tell the truth. Can't hurt.

I am curious. What do you mean about agendas? What do you mean about truth? Is there one truth that works for everyone when it comes to how women perceive and deal with the experience of labor and birth? What would you tell every pregnant woman about birth, if you could only say one thing? Do all women who talk about a positive experience in labor and birth (whatever amount or kind of pain is involved) have something to prove?

I used to think, before I had children, that women who said they enjoyed birth were lying, or trying to prove something to someone. I honestly thought they were lying, or disillusioned. I had seen how most women go to the hospital and many needed medication. I thought I knew that that was the nature of birth. It would just hurt, and most likely so bad, that I would always need medication. Why would I go natural? That was like getting a root canal and refusing medication. I didn't have anything to prove to anyone, or to myself.

Then, I took an independent childbirth education class when I was pregnant with baby #1, which opened my eyes up to a whole new possibility that labor and birth could be manageable. I chose to have a HB in my 8th month of pregnancy, and switched my care from an OB to a HB MW. I experienced traumatic feelings after that birth and came head on with my own questions. I went through my own personal process of healing and growth during my second pregnancy and with my second son's birth, I experienced such a feeling of accomplishment and joy. I think there was pain, but I don't recall it vividly, like I can with my first son's birth. It was like hard work, and I did it. My DH and MW were there, but in the background, supporting and encouraging. But I did it. And it felt good to me, in its entirety. Maybe not pain-free or orgasmic, but it was such an empowering, powerful, miracle to me. The way my son was born facilitated a very positive bonding and breastfeeding experience, which I grieved the loss of with my first son.

This example from my life may make some women here very angry when they read it. Some may feel like they failed in their own experience or that they are not being validated in their pain as someone else had less pain than they did or that someone is pointing a finger at them or any number of very valid feelings. I can understand that, as strange as that may sound to some, and even accept that people will have those feelings when reading what I wrote.

But I feel like I have a duty to share how my experiences were for me b/c what if no one had shared theirs when I needed it? I would have never known what was possible. *If positive birth is possible for one woman, then there is the chance it is possible for another.*


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
This is all interesting stuff (I'm familiar with quite a bit of it), but I don't see how that has anything to do with other cultures having "pain free" births. It means they actually work with the pain, manage the pain, and expect the pain to be bearable - that's not the same thing as not expecting, or not having, pain.

To re-visit this idea, I think there must be something going on to facilitate a birth that is pain-free. Why couldn't changes of positions, support and encouragement, and a mindset that approaches labor and birth as normal be a part of creating the pain-free experience?

This above statement begs the question, also, in order for labor to be pain-free does one have to go into it not expecting pain? Or can one believe pain exists, but also try to find ways to deal with it when it presents itself?

To clarify my intentions: when I am pulling quotes out, in general, I am choosing which parts I want to discuss. I am wanting to talk openly about these ideas, and hear what you and others have to say. I desire dialogue.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyshoes* 
How can labor not hurt?

How can birth be ecstatic?

Pain doesn't feel good!

I love these questions you pose.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyshoes* 
These are questions and values Mainstream USA has with regard to birthing women, and this thread is a fantastic assalt against un-thought-through assumptions, opening minds and encouraging ideas.


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## SundayInSeptember (Aug 25, 2006)

Just tell the truth as you experienced it. Don't leave anything out or add anything intentionally. Just say what happened, as you perceived it, as you experienced it. Most intelligent people know that perceptions will vary, so, just tell the truth as you experienced it. It's not a tough concept. It's only tough when complicated by an agenda. Just tell the truth.


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## straighthaircurly (Dec 17, 2005)

I am one of those women who consider the birth process to have been extremely hardwork, but not acutely painful (except for the dislocated rib I had







). I have done a lot of extreme physical challenges in my life and my brain makes a distinction between productive pain (or pain which you know is accomplishing something and will have an end) and nonproductive pain (pain which is chronic falls into that category). I don't really feel the two types in the same way at all. I don't claim to understand it.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenthumb3* 
How was it helpful for you to know that labor and birth were going to be very, very painful, like in a way you couldn't control and would just take over? How does *that* help women? I mean, with a real-life example, like, HOW did it help you to prepare for childbirth?

I didn't know that!! That's what I was so bitter about. I read Birthing From Within, Spiritual Midwifery, even good ole What to Expect When You're Expecting.

I remember rereading What to Expect after the birth and howling with sarcastic glee, telling my daughter's father: "Listen to this!! They say, 'in transition you may feel like you are nearing the end of your rope.' May feel!!!!! I was so far past the end of my tattered, ruined little shred of rope, there was bloody nothing left of it!"

If I had known that it could be very, very painful and it was not all my attitude, I would have been much better prepared. I would have had a more prepared birth team. Probably more people, prepared to do some hard physical labour, as counterpressure is what saved my behind. Hardcore counterpressure, three people were exhausted by it.

And I would not have felt like I sucked when I was overwhelmed by the pain at 3cm. I would not have felt like there was something wrong with me, like I was wussing out, like my attitude must be messing me up.

Thankfully I had a good birth team, so I was able to express those feelings and was reassured that it's different for every woman, this *is* normal, etc.

But I wish I had heard it straight up going in, so I was not so woefully naive and unprepared.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenthumb3* 
*If positive birth is possible for one woman, then there is the chance it is possible for another.*

Just to be clear, I had a positive birth. A positive birth that hurt like hell. Both can co-exist. Yk?

I hear that you don't remember pain, and good for you. That is really wonderful. I don't personally feel badly hearing that, because I don't hear you trying to make any generalizations or judgments about those who do experience significant pain.

However the danger can come when women who don't experience pain, or much pain, start thinking it was becoz of something *they* did right, some trick they had that others didn't, some better attitude a la Ina May Gaskin's theories







. Kwim? That's where it turns into a set up, and into a minimization of the real pain that can and does exist for many women.


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SundayInSeptember* 
How about honesty? Just be honest? Leave any agenda at the door and just tell the truth. Can't hurt.

Hmmm. But I'm going to jump into the middle of this VERY interesting conversation with both feet. WHOSE TRUTH ARE WE TELLING? Really. I have a sister in law who gets hysterical with the FIRST contraction and continues to be hysterical from pain until she gets the epidural.

I, on the other hand, had one labor pain free except for the part of labor where my daughter was posterior, and with water and counter pressure that went away. And then I had the second labor, which really WAS pain free. Now, I'm not saying that it wasn't WORK to stay relaxed during the contractions. But work is not pain. It was concentration and relaxation, but not pain. It WAS tumultuous because of the hormones going on inside of my body. But it was not pain.

SO, whose truth are we telling? My sister in laws? Mine? I think we really need to tell women that it will be WORK. That there may be discomfort and the level of that discomfort differs with every woman.

In my doula practice, I don't tell a woman, "When your contractions are X mns apart call me and I'll come" I tell them to call me as soon as they realize they're in labor, so that I can prepare my life (get a caregiver for the kids, get bag in car if it's not there already, etc.). THEN we keep in phone contact...and I tell them to make sure to call me when they can NO LONGER GO ABOUT NORMAL LIFE. When this is differs from laboring woman to laboring woman. Many call me and they are truely in the early stages of early labor. Others call me after I have already moved to a shopping mall up the street from them and they're nearing or in transition. Every woman's truth about what labor IS is different. And I think that that s awesome.

I think that that is one of the major flaws in the hospital system that we have set up. They decide that active labor starts at 4 cm and that at that point it's more painful. Really? I had a client last march who was at 2 cm when she reached the hospital _in transition_. She HAD the baby an hour and a half later. If we hadn't known how to read her physical and emotional signs of labor, and if she hadn't had a practitioner who trusted that she knew what was going on in her body...it could have been a WHOLE different experience. They would have said, "well you're ONLY at 2 cm and in a great deal of pain ALREADY, so you had better get that epidural now!" OR they could very easily have sent her home because she was ONLY 2 cm. But, because her practitioner realized that everybody has their own labor, not a mechanical one that is the same for every woman, she kept her, supported her, and caught her baby very soon after.

Does that make sense?...


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *courtenay_e* 
I think that that is one of the major flaws in the hospital system that we have set up. They decide that active labor starts at 4 cm and that at that point it's more painful. Really? I had a client last march who was at 2 cm when she reached the hospital _in transition_.

So true! With my second, I told the midwife that the baby was coming, but when she felt it she said I was not dilated enough and that would be some time. Well, I gave birth within 20 minutes in only one push!


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenthumb3* 
How was it helpful for you to know that labor and birth were going to be very, very painful, like in a way you couldn't control and would just take over? How does *that* help women? I mean, with a real-life example, like, HOW did it help you to prepare for childbirth?

In my case, I think the difference it would have made is that if I'd known how I was going to feel, I'd have been a lot more serious about looking into alternative pain relief methods - including non-epidural medication. I also might have gotten a doula or at least a backup support person other than my husband, who was not very helpful (and I knew that would be the case; hospitals freak him out and he's never good in a crisis).

I think hearing too much of this "just relax and it won't hurt" B.S. makes women overconfident about how much they can handle on their own and without any kind of pain relief, and then when it hurts more than they can handle, if they're in a hospital, the only option they have is an epidural.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

i had a pain free birth with my son using hypno babies.

mom's version
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=623754
dad's version
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=623757


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Probably more people, prepared to do some hard physical labour, as counterpressure is what saved my behind. Hardcore counterpressure, three people were exhausted by it.

That could have made the difference for me too. Counterpressure helped for the two hours or so my husband could do it, before he was too physically exhausted, and at that point it was 4 a.m., I was still in early labor, and there was no one else there to do it. I went through another six hours of that before I got the epidural - still nowhere NEAR transition - and I can't imagine how anyone could handle the whole process without serious help, or drugs.


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## SundayInSeptember (Aug 25, 2006)

If each woman just tells her own truth, and is only responsible for telling the truth as she perceived it, as she experienced it, we will have the experiences of each woman to utilize as a guide if we so choose to do so. Accordingly, your sister's truth, your sister-in-law's truth, etc., is not your responsibility and nor could you be accountable for a truth you didn't experience firsthand.

It's not rocket science. Just do what the others are doing here--tell the truth, as you perceive it, as you experienced it, to the best of your honest ability without any intentional spin and let the next woman do the same. Everyone knows that perceptions vary in folks and memories are not perfect. Just do your best with it, that's all.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenthumb3* 
To re-visit this idea, I think there must be something going on to facilitate a birth that is pain-free. Why couldn't changes of positions, support and encouragement, and a mindset that approaches labor and birth as normal be a part of creating the pain-free experience?

Well, with ds1 (the only I've had any significant amount of labour with),I had all these things. Labour and birth seemed totally normal to me (after all, we _all_ came from that!), I moved around and changed positions freely, as my body told me to and I had a lot of support and encouragement (after I woke up my ex - I quite happily laboured alone for several hours while he slept). It still hurt. It didn't hurt like the scare stories said it would, but it hurt. Now, I happen to believe that my son turned breech while I was in labour. (I've been told this can't happen with a first, but I'm pretty damned sure it did...the "head lump" wasn't where it had been for the last few weeks, my GP had found him as vertex on Wednesday, and he was breech on Friday when I went to the hospital after 20+ hours of labour.) I also believe that's where a lot of the pain came from - pressure on my back from the baby shifting position.

The contractions themselves also hurt. They hurt like the worst menstrual cramps I'd ever had. I heard them described that way later, but I'd never heard them described that way at the time. They felt just like cramps. So did all three of my miscarriages. I have to think that the pain does have a physical/physiological basis when it so closely mimicked other pain I'd felt. I really can't say what role expectations played in any of it. I had no expectation of painful periods, as I'd been menstruating for almost two years before I had one that hurt, and the painful ones never were predictable. I certainly didn't anticipate my miscarriages - just pain that came out of nowhere at 12 weeks gestation. Yet, that pain was just like my labour pains.

I do think pain management is tremendously important. The role of changing positions is hardly going to revolutionary information on this board, but I know how important it is. When I went in for my scheduled section with ds2, I'd been in labour since the night before. The contractions hurt - more than I'd remember, actually - but they weren't terrible. I was riding them out fairly easily...walking around, mostly. When I got to the hospital, they put me on a bed to check dilation. When the next contraction hit, I was ready to claw out someone's eyes if it would make the pain go away. I honestly can't imagine what it feels like to go through an _entire_ labour like that! It was brutal...so I definitely feel that it's essential to educate women (and doctors!) about alternative methods of coping with pain (changing positions, warm water, counter pressure, etc.).


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
In my case, I think the difference it would have made is that if I'd known how I was going to feel, I'd have been a lot more serious about looking into alternative pain relief methods - including non-epidural medication. I also might have gotten a doula or at least a backup support person other than my husband, who was not very helpful (and I knew that would be the case; hospitals freak him out and he's never good in a crisis).

I think hearing too much of this "just relax and it won't hurt" B.S. makes women overconfident about how much they can handle on their own and without any kind of pain relief, and then when it hurts more than they can handle, if they're in a hospital, the only option they have is an epidural.

I think there's a lot of truth to that. I don't much like the cultural phenomenon of "oh, hey - here's a pregnant woman, so let's inundate her with warnings about how awful labour is"...but that _is_ reality for some women, and we have no idea which we'll be until we're there. I think it would be ideal if pregnant women were exposed to both kinds of story, so that they _knew_ that they didn't know what to expect.


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## pantufla (Jun 7, 2007)

I have two babies. They were both born at home with a midwife, the second with a doula. The first was INTENSE. Not particularly painful, but definitely INTENSE. No one believes me when I say that breaking my arm hurt much worse. The second baby, well, not only was he 9.5lbs, he was also completely OP, and not only that, but with what my midwife called a "military presentation". Yes, back labor was painful. But still not like breaking my arm!

Here's my theory about pain, for whatever it's worth. Pain is a message. Your body is trying to tell you something about itself. Sometimes it's "ow, you stubbed your toe you ninny!" Sometimes it's "YIKES, you broke a bone!" Sometimes it's "oooh, hey, that was a hard workout yesterday." Not all pain is "bad" pain -- which is to say, it's not always a message telling you that something is wrong with your body. Sometimes pain is a message telling you that something is right.

With labor pain you get a break in between contractions (in theory, anyway, LOL) during which you can relax a moment, take a few deep breaths, reposition yourself, and prepare for the next wave of contractions. Labor pain is "good" pain -- every contraction tells you "the baby's coming, the baby's coming".

Having said all of that, I also believe that a person's pain threshold has a lot to do with it. I have three friends who have all told me separately that they said to their husbands, "how the heck does [pantufla] do this without drugs?!" But maybe it's also because pain meds were never *available* to me.

I do believe that a pain free labor is possible. But there are so many factors...


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Just to be clear, I had a positive birth. A positive birth that hurt like hell. Both can co-exist. Yk?


I consider that a truth worth telling.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I didn't know that!! That's what I was so bitter about.

But I wish I had heard it straight up going in, so I was not so woefully naive and unprepared.

I can understand this.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I think it would be ideal if pregnant women were exposed to both kinds of story, so that they _knew_ that they didn't know what to expect.

You know, this is interesting to think about. On one hand, I agree with this idea, cover all the bases so women can see how unpredictable labor/birth can be, and maybe they can avoid whatever would make for a negative experience for them.

But on the other, part of me does wonder: is birth about doing it "right" the first time? Is it about being totally prepared that nothing throws one off? Maybe it is necessary to experience some things in order to know what one wants?

Even if it hurts, and not just in-the-moment-pain, but emotionally afterward. Maybe there is a purpose for the "pain", the work, the effort, the emotional rawness of childbearing. Not that it is meant to destroy us as people and be traumatic, but that it is meant to stretch us and make us stronger people, not b/c we have had the ideal experience but b/c we have learned from our experiences, whatever positive or negative forms they take.

I wonder if that may be one of the purposes of childbearing. That may sound crazy, and I don't know if it's true for everyone. I almost feel it ringing true for me. So, the purpose for me in birth is not that it always feels good, or I avoid all "bad things" (whatever that may mean, pain, fear, etc.), but that I can welcome whatever comes and be stronger for experiencing it. That leaves wide room for me to have any kind of labor and allow lots of feelings to flow about it afterwards, too. I can accept if I feel sad about certain parts, or angry, or really happy and thankful.


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## SundayInSeptember (Aug 25, 2006)

It would be interesting to hear some comments from some of the mothers who experienced PTSD after a difficult birth experience who also felt they were not adequately prepared or informed. I, for one, would be very unhappy if information was withheld from me about it under the guise of it being a growth experience. I'm an adult--let me make those decisions. There seems to be an element of withholding for some people regarding their birth experiences. Without a doubt, these are private, personal experiences, and no one can be expected to share anything unwillingly. If a mother chooses to share, however, at least let it be complete information, and not incomplete information for somebody else's "good". That's for the adult mother-to-be to decide. Better to not say anything than withhold information or lie.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Huh. Yeah, I'm totally digging what you are saying, greenthumb.

For me, I feel like labour was the initiation for motherhood. Like, it was extremely hard and pushed me to my very limits... beyond my limits. And it was wonderful and so so beautiful and taught me so much about my primal self and my body and my own power.

And I can't tell you how good it was for my body image that I grew this person and delivered her without drugs or someone coming in with a knife and taking her out of me. Fabulous.

Also, after she was born was the craziest high I've ever had. Ten times more powerful than any E trip. My theory is that I had all the endorphins to cope with the unbelievable pain. Then the pain disappeared, suddenly just like that, when she was born. So my system was flooded with endorphins, and OMG I've never been higher. Meeting my baby like that was wild. I was SO happy.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenthumb3* 
Maybe there is a purpose for the "pain", the work, the effort, the emotional rawness of childbearing. Not that it is meant to destroy us as people and be traumatic, but that it is meant to stretch us and make us stronger people, not b/c we have had the ideal experience but b/c we have learned from our experiences, whatever positive or negative forms they take.

If that's the case, then it certainly didn't function as it was meant to in my case. It was traumatic - not "hard, but worthwhile" - traumatic. It didn't make me stronger. It made me fear pain more. It made me want to cry every time I got a backache for months afterward, because back pain reminded me what labor felt like and I just wanted to forget.

Honestly, the only reason I am more confident after learning from that experience is that due to not being a VBAC candidate, I will have scheduled c-sections from now on and I don't have to worry about ever going through that again. I can totally handle another c-section. I couldn't handle another labor like that.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

pookel.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SundayInSeptember* 
It would be interesting to hear some comments from some of the mothers who experienced PTSD after a difficult birth experience who also felt they were not adequately prepared or informed. I, for one, would be very unhappy if information was withheld from me about it under the guise of it being a growth experience. I'm an adult--let me make those decisions. There seems to be an element of withholding for some people regarding their birth experiences.

Hi! That's me, too, only with baby number one. I could list lots of things "I wish I had known". I know that for myself, I don't list all the things from my first experience, not out of an agenda to hide, but just b/c lots of what I felt has softened with time and had healed and I don't want to re-open it all just now (prepping for baby #3's birth any day now). I don't know about why other people tell or don't tell certain aspects of their experiences.

I think that my CBE didn't necessarily withhold info, although there were things I wish she would have addressed more, better, etc. But I accept she did her best at that time. I also realize now that although I love to research, I also love to "delve" into things and need to explore my feelings to get a feel of what is best for me. A Birthing From Within-type class might have filled in the gaps, so-to-speak, in prep. for baby #1 in such a way that might have facilitated a different experience. But, how was I to know that then?? And there weren't any locally anyhow. I just did the best with the tools I had, it all boils down to. Ack, the questions and unknowns! I realize that not everything my CBE/doula did, or my MW or DH or mom or MIL or sister in law or mom's dog







(uninvited guest number 2) was the ultimate in helpful, but, at some point I had to move on.

Perspectives from my experience. I would be interested, also to hear other persepctives from moms who experienced symptoms of PTSD after giving birth, too.

I would also like to understand more of what you mean when you said:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SundayInSeptember* 
I, for one, would be very unhappy if information was withheld from me about it under the guise of it being a growth experience.


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## greenthumb3 (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
If that's the case, then it certainly didn't function as it was meant to in my case. It was traumatic - not "hard, but worthwhile" - traumatic. It didn't make me stronger.

I couldn't handle another labor like that.

Hmmm. Maybe the stronger thing doesn't always mean a mom will be stronger in her experiences giving birth, like the "next time is always better", KWIM? Maybe it strengthens you in other areas of your life? Maybe you are stronger than you think. You are living proof you survived and made it through a tough experience, and that has to count for something! (Not to minimize what you went through)


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyshoes*
So, I personally, have had 8 hours of 'pain free' labor myself. How many other women?

All of my labors have been EXCRUCIATINGLY painful (even in an ideal environment,) so I know about pain. That said, while I've never had contractions that were totally pain free, I've had some very enjoyable times in early labor. I also LOVED my second stages that were normal, they were very intense and I wouldn't say pain-free, but the most fantastic feeling at the same time. Most interestingly, I had one absolutely blissed-out hour during my last labor, quite late in the labor, about an hour before the baby was born. I've rarely felt that good in my entire life.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenthumb3*
If positive birth is possible for one woman, then there is the chance it is possible for another.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Just to be clear, I had a positive birth. A positive birth that hurt like hell. Both can co-exist. Yk?

Absolutely. Out of four extremely painful births, three were awesome and empowering experiences. My other birth was traumatic not because of the pain, but because of how I was treated and how the birth was managed.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
However the danger can come when women who don't experience pain, or much pain, start thinking it was becoz of something *they* did right, some trick they had that others didn't, some better attitude a la Ina May Gaskin's theories . Kwim? That's where it turns into a set up, and into a minimization of the real pain that can and does exist for many women.

<nodding>


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happy2bamama* 
Wow, and I thought my post had been picked apart before! You completely proved my point.

If you don't want responses in a discussion forum, perhaps you simply ought to not offer them at all, rather than belittle someone for responding. If you don't feel it's appropriate to look critically at these issues, fine. But, please, don't try to make that call for other people. I'll decide what's important for me to talk about, thanks.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I was planning a natural birth, but I ended up being induced and getting the epidural. I can't tell if this post is exclusively for natural births, but I will say, I had a pain-free experience. Before it happened, I was so afraid of being induced and the pitocin, so afraid of having my water broken, so afraid of the epidural, afraid to push the baby out...but in the end each of those things was not painful as I expected. Not fun, you know, but not painful at all. Lots of work, like running a roadrace.

I didn't have candles and soft music, but I did have a relaxation cd that my friend the yoga teacher made me--and I think that really helped get my mind in the right place.

I have so many friends who found birth excruciating, even with the epidural--and that just wasn't my experience. I think it's just a unique experience each time.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

Maybe there is a purpose for the "pain", the work, the effort, the emotional rawness of childbearing. Not that it is meant to destroy us as people and be traumatic, but that it is meant to stretch us and make us stronger people, not b/c we have had the ideal experience but b/c we have learned from our experiences, whatever positive or negative forms they take.
This gave me chills.

I had a traumatic birth--34 hours, posterior, unwanted hospital transfer (from a birth center) due to GBS and broken waters and long labor. I would describe it as horrendously, agonizingly painful. I went into the birth thrilled, excited, and not at all frightened. I had great support, too. Afterwwards, I was totally devastated and felt like a complete failure for accepting the epi and Pit (which were not really my choice, in the end). I mean, I was crushed. But you know, I think this experience (and the difficult BFing experience that followed) humbled me and forced me to grow as a person in a way a "good" birth would never have done. Frankly, I know moms who had fast, easy med-free births and talk up the "birth is painfree if you believe it can be" line, and I look at them and think how much they do not understand about the mystery of birth. I have such mercy in my heart for women whose births are painful or do not go the way they wanted them to. Before I had DD, I used to read negative birth stories and think "Oh, this is where it went wrong, because X" and now I just shake my head at my arrogance.

Parenthood has been the biggest humbling experience in my life, and DD's birth was step #1 down that path.


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## tintal (Oct 19, 2006)

Personally, I don't believe in a pain free birth. Mine hurt like h*##







:


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenthumb3* 
Hmmm. Maybe the stronger thing doesn't always mean a mom will be stronger in her experiences giving birth, like the "next time is always better", KWIM? Maybe it strengthens you in other areas of your life? Maybe you are stronger than you think. You are living proof you survived and made it through a tough experience, and that has to count for something! (Not to minimize what you went through)

Traumatic birth experiences may make some women stronger, I don't know. That hasn't happened for me. Not to put too fine a point on it - my sections broke me. I survived, but I'm a shadow of who I used to be.

I don't think knowing that my baby could turn and I could end up sectioned for a breech less than 48 hours after my last prenatal checkup would have made it more "right". I'm not even sure it would have helped. I don't even really know whta getting birth "right" means. I just wish that women ere better informed about the fact that labour and birth isn't the same every time...that your best friend begging for an epi doesn't mean you'll feel that way...that your sister having a pain-free five hour labour doesn't mean that you will. I guess I see it as the opposite of trying to get it right - I wish women were encouraged to understand that what will be, will be and you don't know what that is until you get there.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

to answer the OP, i do believe that pain-free birth exists.

what i don't know is how or why or when it manifests and for whom. i can only assert that i am visualizing such a birth for myself (i've never had one), and that I am not in fear of pain should i experience it.

like the woman who posted this

Quote:

_Maybe there is a purpose for the "pain", the work, the effort, the emotional rawness of childbearing. Not that it is meant to destroy us as people and be traumatic, but that it is meant to stretch us and make us stronger people, not b/c we have had the ideal experience but b/c we have learned from our experiences, whatever positive or negative forms they take._
i believe that labor--whether painful or not--has this distinct purpose. it is a transitional time for a woman and baby. the 'old wise' tales tell us that "a woman must pass through her death to bring forth life." it doesn't mention pain either way, but there is an extreme element here that is worth noting.

if my labor is to be excruciating, which i believe it will not be, then i will be able to handle (manage) it, and that all will be well.

there's no reason to assume that pain is wrong or bad, or that it is necessarily going to harm one (physically, psychologically, etc). it is simply whatever it is, and in being that, it is something that tempers us.

i am not afraid to be tempered. if that is how it manifests, then that's what is. and if it manifests differently--pain free, ecstatic--then that's what it is.

either way is OK by me.


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