# Awful Update #20 :( - Do you limit your DCs time around kids who stress him/her out?



## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Here's my problem:

I have a friend, she has a son. Let's call him Jimmy. Let's call her Anna.

I love Anna....she is like my sister I didn't find until I was an adult. She and I have a lot of similar views and feelings about womanhood, motherhood, gentle discipline, etc...she has been an AMAZING friend to me...I have been a good friend to her, too. I've known her since Jimmy was a NB....she's known me and supported me through my pregnancy and birth and now is being a great friend to me through this pregnancy too. Her DS is now almost two and my DD is 15 months.

Here's the issue....her son is an increibly high needs child. He is just....FOREVER crying, wailing, upset. When he's not crying and wailing, he's moving a million miles a minute. My angel of a friend Anna has remained steadfast in her gentle ways with him through so much....I admire her strength so much. I have tried to be as supportive as I can when it comes to her difficulties and always have told her that I don't mind...that I don't judge her or think her kid is rotten or whatever....I love Jimmy and know that he'll grow up and find ways to channel his energy and won't always cry and carry on, etc...this is just who he is. Since he was a baby, little tiny guy, he's been this exact way.

But Jimmy makes my child miserable. She is a really laid back girl and being around him creates gigantic amounts of stress for her. They haven't spent a lot of time around each other, so I kind of thought "Let them get used to each other" - but after the last time we were all together, my DH (who was there and who loves Anna too!) said "no more, she can't be around him anymore" - she was so stressed out...just, really upset. She just kind of stands around watching him, shocked, pointing and them when he gets really upset, weeping softly and beggin to be picked up. She's really sensitive and when he starts wailing and screaming like that it seems to shatter her. I don't think that my friend could see how upset my DD was because she was tending toJimmy's needs...he was just completely *completely* metling down the whole time. It's what he does every time I am ever around him, on the phone with her, etc...this is him, daily. He is just a much more high needs, emotional kid.

I don't know what to do. I want to spend time around her, because I can see that she is isolated, depressed and lonely. She is a lovely woman and I love her...I don't have many mama friends at all and I could really use the time around her...but my DD becomes so distressed. She is the most laid back kid around and is very sensitive to what's going on in the emotional space around her...when he breaks down like that, she looks at me like "help him!" and becomes upset because he is one of those "inconsolable cryers"...my friend just holds him and walks him all around but he will NOT stop crying. I think a lot of the time he cries until he's so tired from crying that he falls asleep...and my amazing soul of a friend just holds him and rocks him as he SCREAMS...

When we were last together, we were with other people who don't know us...and they were talking so much trash about her while he was crying and screaming and she was walking him around patiently and completely humiliated...I got so angry...I said "yeah, well, good luck to you when you have your own, buddy, let's hope they are perfect angels and you never have to console them as they scream in front of other people..I'd hate for you to be judged like that and have to look at peoples ugly stares and glaring" - which, of course, automatically made me a giant you-know-what. They were so disgusted, like "wow, way to get control of your kid, lady" and "that kid needs a good spanking" and then looking at my DD and being like "What a good kid, you guys know what you're doing huh" - which is obviously ridiculous, I had no more to do with my child being born so "easy" than my poor friend did in her child being born so challenging. It made me poisonous with anger at these men, that they would drag my kid into their judgement again her and her son...I literally had a bad taste in my mouth.









But then when my DH said that "DD can't be around him" it made me so mad at him, like he was one of THEM, the JUDGERS, you know? At the same time.....my DD was honestly really upset. It stresses her out a lot. Seeing her like that, makes my DH want to vomit with worry...she is cool as a cucumber all the time...this is a kid who literally, did not ONCE cry until she was like 2-3 weeks old...and after that, very very rarely. She's just happy. She is happy, forever smiling and laughing. She has spoiled us, that's for sure. She's coming into her own now that she's trying on being a toddler and definitely has her days...but still, SO laid back, being around him really dizzies her, for lack of a better word....but I want to stand by my mama friend. She's alone all day really, has no one else...just cooped up with this highly stressful child and is also struggling with marital problems...her husband is drinking alot right now to cope with financial stress they;re having and sometimes goes a day (or a few) without talking to her...it makes me scream inside to see how lonely she is....what do I do?

Do you keep your child away from children who are "too much" for them to handle? Ladies...I'm not a faint hearted woman, I used to do a lot of volunteering in respite care and I tend to do well around highly stressful kids/people....but this boy even stresses me out to be around...it's not that my DD is too sensitive...he really is a trying little person.







God, I feel so terrible even saying that.









This poor boy, has so few playmates...I want to be there for him and for my friend, I want my DD to be his friend because we seem to have such strange values for our age/area...but somehow, these people have the same values and enjoy the same peaceful life we do...but what if my DD doesn't want that? I have to put my DD first. I'm sorry this is so long...my heart is in knots. She asks from time to time about playdates and I just don't know what to do. My DH says until DD is old enough to verbally communicate what she needs and so can have our help in processing how she feels, etc...that he doesn't want her to be around him. He said he is worried, because she can't really communicate to us what she needs or what she's feeling for this boy. I think she thinks he's hurt...because she'll look at me and make her little sign for "ouchie" and then gesture toward him, I think she gets upset because she thinks this boy is hurt and that no one is or can help him.







I feel like I'm letting my dear friend and her awesome boy down.


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

Averysmama, I do keep my dc away from stress-inducing children, but every time I have had to make that decision, it is because ultimately, the children's parents are not parenting, which makes it stressful, that if they would be present with their little ones and meet their needs, we would have a different situation.

Yours is different than that, quite clearly. I feel sad for you in this situation.









I wonder, could you visit when your lo is with daddy so that she's not having to cope? Or maybe just short visits with dd in a sling, or active visits like going for walks? It seems like she might feel less stress if she was on you or daddy while things unfold for this little boy.

Before I would quit playdates altogether, I would try the sling option with a loose focus- a walk, for instance. If that didn't work out, I would try to situate myself on the floor with her on my lap for all of her interactions. I would make sure that she knows that he's not hurt and would encourage her to focus on mama while the little boy is wailing- maybe teach her (if you haven't already or don't find it too odd for you) deep breathing exercises, stretching, patty-cake games, etc... that you can do together while you wait for your friends to resolve the present situation. Maybe this will rub off on the little boy too, and he'll want to try it as well.

I might also narrate everything as it occurs with the boy and his mum. "He's crying. He seems very upset. His mum is picking him up and rocking him. He's still crying. Mum is still rocking him. Do you want to stretch with me while they cuddle?" Maybe that would help her to know that she's not in a position of having to solve anything, that everything is okay, and everything that can be done is being done.

Maybe you've already tried all of this. I'm not assuming you haven't, but just to brainstorm with you...










I think that preserving such an awesome friendship is very important. I think you can work things around this issue, even if you have to leave dd at home with daddy to visit for a while- even years if necessary. You already know a great friend is such a treasure, one that few find. This is surmountable!


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PreggieUBA2C* 
Averysmama, I do keep my dc away from stress-inducing children, but every time I have had to make that decision, it is because ultimately, the children's parents are not parenting, which makes it stressful, that if they would be present with their little ones and meet their needs, we would have a different situation.

Yours is different than that, quite clearly. I feel sad for you in this situation.









I wonder, could you visit when your lo is with daddy so that she's not having to cope? Or maybe just short visits with dd in a sling, or active visits like going for walks? It seems like she might feel less stress if she was on you or daddy while things unfold for this little boy.

Before I would quit playdates altogether, I would try the sling option with a loose focus- a walk, for instance. If that didn't work out, I would try to situate myself on the floor with her on my lap for all of her interactions. I would make sure that she knows that he's not hurt and would encourage her to focus on mama while the little boy is wailing- maybe teach her (if you haven't already or don't find it too odd for you) deep breathing exercises, stretching, patty-cake games, etc... that you can do together while you wait for your friends to resolve the present situation. Maybe this will rub off on the little boy too, and he'll want to try it as well.

I might also narrate everything as it occurs with the boy and his mum. "He's crying. He seems very upset. His mum is picking him up and rocking him. He's still crying. Mum is still rocking him. Do you want to stretch with me while they cuddle?" Maybe that would help her to know that she's not in a position of having to solve anything, that everything is okay, and everything that can be done is being done.

Maybe you've already tried all of this. I'm not assuming you haven't, but just to brainstorm with you...









I think that preserving such an awesome friendship is very important. I think you can work things around this issue, even if you have to leave dd at home with daddy to visit for a while- even years if necessary. You already know a great friend is such a treasure, one that few find. This is surmountable!









Thank you so much for your gentle and loving response!

Visiting while DD is with Dada is hard for us...they go away every weekend and during the week DH is out of the house from sun up to sun down because he works far away...so that means I couldn't get in the car to make the drive to her house until around 6:00-6:30...25 minutes driving puts me there at an akward time, you know? What I thought of, was trying to have a "girl date" with her. Preplanned, just the two of us, dads watching kids....I thought that would be really nice for both of us...only problem is, she doesn't leave her DS alone with her DH because her DS is SO challegning and her husband struggles with "gentle", if you can see what I'm saying. He is a good guy...he just grew up in a house where a "good beating" was the way you "show a kid whose boss" so it's hard for him and he yells and it makes her incredibly anxious to leave them alone.....which, is just another reason why I feel like I HAVE to support her...she never gets any time to herself...this kid is even high needs at night...so, she never really gets great sleep either. I sometimes just want to WHISK her away, you know? Just come by in the night and knock her out and steal her for a week.

I have tried the naration, I have tried distraction....she takes him as far away as she can when he cries...but she can still hear him and nothing...not toys, hugs, even her favorite: SNACKS, can deter her. She wants to look out the window, follow them, she wants to see where he is and is concerned until he stops crying. Normally, when a kid is crying, she becomes concerned, her little brow wrinkling, she watches intently..."that little child is upset" I say...and she looks at me with a little sad face...and the mama will console the child and he'll calm down and I'll say "look, all better, what a happy boy again!" and she can move on....she is happy then and a lot of the time at that point will try to get closer to the child, wants to laugh with him and touch him.....but this little one doesn't follow that mode, he just cries and cries...so after a while, it's like she doesn't "buy into" the narration, you know? She's like "Be quite mama, this is not right, something is wrong, why isn't he getting better" - she simply doesn't yet have the language skills that we can really talk about it, you know? I feel like once we do...we can have an easier time being around them.

Sling doesn't work..she loves to be in the sling...now that I'm big and pregnant, it's harder, but we're rockin' the hike/back position and it's okay....but my friends boy won't go in a sling anymore and so my DD won't do it....she wants down, like him, and gets mad in the sling because she wants to walk too. But then....when she is down around him...all she can do is watch and *duck* when he crashes into her. He likes to be rough and rowdy and she's just soooo laid back. She wants to play "let's find rocks" or "lets go up the stairs!" and he wants to play "I'm going to scream and jump into your head now!!" you know?

Thank you for your suggestions...I'm really stuck. My DD has been fine around more hig henergy kids...or even "cry-ers"....but this boy is just REALLLY high intensity...and she can't cope. We tried a walk...she was DYING to get away after a while. The noise this little person puts out is overwhelming even for an adult...

This feels rotten...I see her struggling so badly...I want to be there for her.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Have you tried parks, so your DD can be busy playing?

I do limit contact with kids who cause stress for my DD. My DD is very exuberant and extremely friendly. If she is causing stress for shy or very quiet children, I also leave. She's 3.5 now but it still sometimes happens. She gets excited and loud and jumps up and down.


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## crl (May 9, 2004)

You've probably already tried this, but what about the park? I've had lots of playdates where the kids were off playing in separate areas, but the moms still got a chance to talk with each other and get out of the house (especially when the kids were little). Would your daughter find it easier to deal with this child if they were able to separate like that?

Catherine


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I would limit my DD's exposure to someone who stressed her out to that degree. It's not a judgment about the boy at all, just protecting your own LO.

I think the suggestion of spending time with your friend and her son but leaving your DD with her papa is a good one. You mentioned that you were wanting to plan some girl time with your friend, so it sounds like you do have some time where you're able to leave DD with her dad -- just, instead of girl time, it'll be girls-and-your-friend's-DS time, and you'll still be able to support your friend, and maybe even help her with her DS without the added stress of worrying about your DD's reaction.

Her DS probably won't always be like this. We had some friends whose 1st DS was a lot like the boy you're describing -- massive meltdowns every single time we got together. It was exhausting, but like you, I knew that was just a part of who he was at that time, and his mama was extremely patient and gentle with him, and around 3.5, he just grew out of it! He continued to have challenging days like every child, but it wasn't ratcheted up to that degree anymore, and we were able to start spending lots more family time together rather than just us moms getting together.

So in a year or two you might be able to start the playdates again, and this boy may end up being a great friend to your DD, but right now it sounds like it's just a time to let each kid have their own space for a while, and for you to support your mama friend but give your DD a break. And also, in a year or two, even if the boy's temperament is the same, your DD will be older and you'll be able to explain to her that he's just upset and his mommy is helping him and everything's okay, and she might be able to tolerate it more easily without getting upset herself. But IMO, there's nothing wrong with letting her take a break and give both of them a few months to mature a little and see if things change.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

A couple of thoughts:
What's this little boy's best time of day? Plan your meetings then. I also second the park or somewhere where it's 'neutral' territory and there's more space to escape the noise.

Second, I would strongly encourage you to set up some time for this mom to get a break. I don't know how you're going to do it, but her dh needs to learn to take care of this child. Is she upset because he yells or does she think he's going to spank? My kids have survived the fact that I yell a lot more than dh. Spanking is clearly out, and if he's going to do that, she needs to make alternative arrangements. But she NEEDS a break. This is a necessity for her to maintain/regain her mental health.

I'm assuming you've talked to her about this, but has she looked into food allergies/sensitivities? There's high needs and then there's what you're describing, and I'm wondering if there's something else going on with this child. How's his development? His language?

Finally, I would limit contact with the son for a bit. When your dd is older, she can probably handle it a bit more. But find a few ways to meet where it's comfortable with everyone, a way for you to go over alone and let your dd mature a bit.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

My sister has a child who was very much like your friend's son at a young age; intense, crying, moving a lot, generally unhappy and not easily consolable. It was the precursor to a later dx., but at the time she didn't know that. My dd was like yours-sensitive and easily overwhelmed by his needs. We had ongoing contact, and it was a relief to my sis because she felt so isolated otherwise, and the worst of it was to feel like her child wasn't wanted or was unwelcome (not saying you're feeling that way, it was my sisters experience).

Anyway, time and development have helped a lot. Many years down the road her child is still amazingly intense, high needs, etc., but also amazingly loving and interesting. And my dd and he share a unique and intense bond. Her tuning in and being sensitive to him, or overly sensitive, continued through the years, and she is one kid who really 'gets' him, and accepts him. It's been really tough sometimes, but ultimately worth it. We have all needed breaks over the years, and that's the thing. If you look at your friendship with "Anna" in terms of longevity, a break here or there for everyone to breath, or for there just to be mama time, is OK in the long run. These special relationships aren't sprints, they are a long distance run in which we all need periodic water breaks. Talk it over with her and let her know how much you love and value her and her son. And be OK with not being able to rescue her. She may have a long road ahead and need to be able to seek help and resources for herself.

A final note: you might try posting a question in the Special Needs forum and ask some mamas there their opinion.

Good Luck.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Honestly, I'd see her without kids for a time. Give your kid a break.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
A couple of thoughts:
What's this little boy's best time of day? Plan your meetings then. I also second the park or somewhere where it's 'neutral' territory and there's more space to escape the noise.

Second, I would strongly encourage you to set up some time for this mom to get a break. I don't know how you're going to do it, but her dh needs to learn to take care of this child. Is she upset because he yells or does she think he's going to spank? My kids have survived the fact that I yell a lot more than dh. Spanking is clearly out, and if he's going to do that, she needs to make alternative arrangements. But she NEEDS a break. This is a necessity for her to maintain/regain her mental health.

I'm assuming you've talked to her about this, but has she looked into food allergies/sensitivities? There's high needs and then there's what you're describing, and I'm wondering if there's something else going on with this child. How's his development? His language?

Finally, I would limit contact with the son for a bit. When your dd is older, she can probably handle it a bit more. But find a few ways to meet where it's comfortable with everyone, a way for you to go over alone and let your dd mature a bit.


They are in such a tough spot right now...they have NO money, are working their butts off to keep things together, just lost their house to short sale (thank goodness they avoided foreclosure) and have just had a string of problems surrounding money. I sense that she feels a bit defeated...they did everything "right"...they waited until they had financial security to have a child, etc...they really set their lives up to make this time wonderful...then, suddenly, they've got this baby and then the economy stinks and his business is dropped off considerably, meaning now she has to work part time to help out (from home) and she's trying to juggle that and this baby....she and I talked about how depressed she is, she hides it from everyone and it makes me so sad....but I think she figures, the things which make her depressed are life struggles and there isn't anything she can do to lift those issues out of her life, so...you know? We spoke recently about some form of medication for her...I'm not a fan, but I'm never going to tell someone who thinks they need a little help that they shouldn't, you know? I just want some relief for her. She said that she couldn't because she was breastfeeding...she JUST stopped bf'ing so maybe now is a good time to revisit that conversation...

Her situation with her DH is sad sad sad. They have been together forever and he is a really great guy.....he is DROWNING right now. His stress level is through the roof...her staying home with their baby and not having to work at all was the plan...I think he feels a lot of guilt that she's sort of hussling on the side to try and make ends meet. He started drinking a lot...I think like, a year ago maybe? He drinks too much and like I mentioned in my fist post, will just cease communication with her sometimes for days at a time. So...she's depressed and isolated with this really super kid, who also is high needs...and she doesn't have her partner to connect with really because he's a million miles away in his mind, just trying to escape the stress in their life.









I understand why she doesn't leave him alone with DS...I don't blame her at all. He is a great man....but she can't trust him right now. It's just like a pressure cooker sometimes at their house, because she never really knows what his moods are going to be like. She knows it's not okay...she knows she needs to be able to count on him and that his drinking has to stop, etc...she knows all of this. She's just trying to keep it together, I think.

As far as the boys development, etc. I really and sincerely believe that he's just a really high needs child...but he isn't talking at all - he's two, I don't know that he really should be talking?? I think he says one word, maybe two...I can't remember what the words are, because only my friend and her DH know what he's talking about when he says it...kind of like when my DD says "bah-buh" WE know she's saying "baby"...or like when she says "Birr"...WE know she's saying bird...but anyone else would say "huh?". I had noticed that my DD seems to say a lot more than he does...she has a few phrases that she can clearly communicate "Bye bye Dada!" and "It's HOT!" and little things like that...and he doesn't speak...but I didn't think that could indicate a problem...I thought that there was a wide variance as far as when kids hit those milestones...but it had crossed my mind that one of the reasons he could be upset all the time is because he is frustrated at being unable to communicate. I know she is really good at reading his non-verbal cues..you know, like a mama is, we know what's up with our LOs....but it still must frustrate him not to be able to "speak his mind".

Thank you all so much for your responses.

I hadn't even really thought of the park for us! My DD is JUST starting to come out of her shell to the point where the park is fun for her with all those kids whizzing around, etc....she's only been walking on outdoor surfaces with ease for a couple of months, so it's just very recently that she feels really comfortable walking at the park. I think that could be a lot of fun and maybe a good way for us to be together.

As far as a good time of day for her son...I'm not sure he really has a GREAT time of day...but I know he has REALLY bad times of day...maybe if we meet when he's having a not-so-bad time...that would be best. My schedule is wiiiiiide open, so I'll go with whatever she can manage.

I love this woman so much. I want to be there for her...I look at everything she's juggling, all these super emotionally charged issues she is handling right now and I'm blown away. The other day, we were talking about how I'm getting ready to go from one to two babies...and she admitted that her husband wants her to have another...and that she wants the same thing...but feels it would be irresponsible to do with the way things are. She is just always doing the right thing...she's always doing the right thing by somebody ELSE....and I think is a classic case of "always gets the short end of the stick" because there is no one making sure that SHE is getting what she needs. She is a selfless mother, a wonderful and understanding wife...and the best friend I've ever known of. Not just in the way she makes me feel.....she is GOOD to me, she would do anything to help me and all I want to do, is fill her with the same sense, that in me she has a friend who would do anything to help her. I'm think maybe a picnic lunch at the park...I'll pack good food for us and we can let the kids play? Something like that....

Thank you, mamas, very much, for all of your suggestions.


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## Funny Face (Dec 7, 2006)

Haven't read all the responses so...

I have a niece (dd's only cousin) who can stress dd out for many of the same reasons you mentioned. There are also a friend of mine recently who I decided to do a playdate with and her child can also overwhelm dd.

My dd is 3.5 though so it's a little easier for me. When playing with these kids I've told her that if she gets tired or wants to be away from them for awhile that all she has to do is come tell me she needs 'a break'. Then she usually comes sits right by me and does something solitary. I explain to the other child nicely that 'She's a little tired and just needs to take a break.' This works better than the solution dd came up with previously of saying 'I do not want to play with you anymore!'

I also try to consider the best environment for playdates with these kids. Our house or theirs is not an option ( a lot of ownership issues and I don't like these kids invading dd's personal safe space). Places like mall playgrounds or parks are good for us.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

I do limit my kids time around other kids who stress them out. They usually stress me out too.

OP, in your situation, I'd see about getting together with your friend without kids. That way you guys can talk without having to worry about your kids breaking down. In another year, try getting the kids together again.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

He should be talking by two (http://www.aap.org/publiced/BK0_DevMile_2Yrs.htm). She might want to explore early intervention services. They may be able to help, and helping him communicate and finding more ways of working with him will help everyone.


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## mrs joe bubby (Mar 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
When we were last together, we were with other people who don't know us...and they were talking so much trash about her while he was crying and screaming and she was walking him around patiently and completely humiliated...I got so angry...I said "yeah, well, good luck to you when you have your own, buddy, let's hope they are perfect angels and you never have to console them as they scream in front of other people..I'd hate for you to be judged like that and have to look at peoples ugly stares and glaring" - which, of course, automatically made me a giant you-know-what. They were so disgusted, like "wow, way to get control of your kid, lady" and "that kid needs a good spanking" and then looking at my DD and being like "What a good kid, you guys know what you're doing huh" - which is obviously ridiculous, I had no more to do with my child being born so "easy" than my poor friend did in her child being born so challenging. It made me poisonous with anger at these men, that they would drag my kid into their judgement again her and her son...I literally had a bad taste in my mouth.











Just from reading your initial post you seem like a VERY kind, compassionate, understanding caring, non-judgemental person. I wish I knew someone like you, and I wish I was more like you. But, why could some of that kindness and understanding not be extended to these other people? Since we don't know them, we don't know what is going on with them or their lives, or what is making them act they way they are....Just as we don't know those things about the poor little guy who is upsetting your daughter. I don't see how being poisonous with anger at them is a healthy reaction. Extending kindness and compassion towards other adults is a good thing too.







: Adults can have different/special needs too, adults can have disabilities, etc etc. Heck, maybe some of these people were going through the same things as your friend's husband and it caused them to act rudely and inappropriately.

And yes I would definitely limit my daughter's time around this boy. It wouldn't be fair to her to make her go through something that is so obviously upsetting to her.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

Hmmm...that's tough.

I've limited contact with people who had kids that were too rough/crazy when dd was smaller. It was just too much for her. I would hold her the whole time when we were together. People thought she was being punished...which was funny because I don't...she was just being protected. Anyway, these same friends have really great, sweet children now. They just needed a little time to mature. They are now some of dd's best friends. But age 2 was NOT a good time.

So...maybe you can talk on the phone a lot, pop in for a few minutes here and there, and then try again to be physically present more in a few months from now?


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## alfabetsoup (Jun 13, 2005)

I also think the park is a great idea. And good for you for standing by your friend.

My first thought when I read your post was, is Jimmy ever happy? I know several intense/high needs children and while they do cry a lot more, they are happy in their comfort zones and can be consoled (though not easily). It may be that he is picking up on the stress at home or it may be something more.


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

I definitely like the idea of the park. I know in my own experience, that sometimes a change of scenery can do wonders for everyone involved.

Ultimately though, you do need to figure out how much is too much for your DC. Is this something you could bring up with your friend? Are you close enough to talk to her about this and try to find a solution together?


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrs joe bubby* 
Just from reading your initial post you seem like a VERY kind, compassionate, understanding caring, non-judgemental person. I wish I knew someone like you, and I wish I was more like you. But, why could some of that kindness and understanding not be extended to these other people? Since we don't know them, we don't know what is going on with them or their lives, or what is making them act they way they are....Just as we don't know those things about the poor little guy who is upsetting your daughter. I don't see how being poisonous with anger at them is a healthy reaction. Extending kindness and compassion towards other adults is a good thing too.







: Adults can have different/special needs too, adults can have disabilities, etc etc. Heck, maybe some of these people were going through the same things as your friend's husband and it caused them to act rudely and inappropriately.

And yes I would definitely limit my daughter's time around this boy. It wouldn't be fair to her to make her go through something that is so obviously upsetting to her.









My anger was in part a reaction to what they were saying, in part a reaction to seeing my poor friend struggling and embarassed and definitely in part to the fact that it was hot and muggy and I've reached that point in my pregnancy where hot and muggy bring out a special kind of grizzly rage in me!









I usually try to be an understanding person....I'm the queen of "not WHAT, but WHY" - I understand and respect that everyone is at a different place in their journey and that we all reach different levels of awareness at different times in our lives...the man who was being particularly rude about the situation was due to become a father any day and after he made a remark along the lines of "If anything like THAT came out of my wifes (horrid slang for "vagina") I would send it right back up there!" - I told him, "No matter what kind of kid your wife gives birth to, you will love that kid to pieces, even a 'kid like THAT'"....but then his remarks just became cruel...anyone with two brain cells and a pair of eyes could see how hard my poor friend was struggling and that she was mortified....they were being cruel...and I have a really hard time tolerating that these days! These people were not friends, nor people I would ever spend time around under normal circumstances.

Thanks for your reply. I got a pretty awful update to this situation this morning which will change the way I go about handling things....


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alfabetsoup* 
I also think the park is a great idea. And good for you for standing by your friend.

My first thought when I read your post was, is Jimmy ever happy? I know several intense/high needs children and while they do cry a lot more, they are happy in their comfort zones and can be consoled (though not easily). It may be that he is picking up on the stress at home or it may be something more.

I think you're right, I think that on top of being a naturally higher needs kid, he is picking up on stress in the house...I don't think his dad is really great at tension moderation...I don't think he gets that the boy is going to pick up on anything that he doesn't "check at the door"...you know?

But I HAVE seen him happy....we were catching salamanders and it was very interesting to him...I've seen him happy when in constant motion....running around, etc...he's not miserable so much...just really hard to please.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

SO I've had the most awful update this morning frommy poor, poor friend.

She finally had a talk with her husband, because his self medicating and avoidance issues are just too much to let slide.....and he's leaving.

That's right. He's confessed to my friend that he's miserable, that he doesn't know if he sees Anna and Jimmy in his life anymore, that he has to find himself and that he's leaving. He is moving ACROSS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY to be on the west coast where his family is from. He said he's just going to go and "see what he finds there". We live on the East Coast. My friend is a SAHM who does a little bit of work out of her home to help with food money, etc. They JUST lost the house that has been their rental property for years....they now have a mortgage for the roof that's over their heads and he has no plan for working, etc when he leaves so that he can help her to pay for where they live, the home they have made theirs for years.

How can this be happening? How can a man, a grown man, up and leave? He is not some kid, they are not some crazy people who just met and decided to have a baby...they had a PLAN they spent years together, building a life so they could have a family and she could stay home...she put her career aside so she could be a SAHM...they've been together forever....and now, just like that, because he's feeling "lost"....he's leaving. Up and walking out the door, to be like, 2,000 miles away from his son and my friend, his wife. These are not flaky people...these are "normal" folks...who are steady and don't do crazy, rash things. They make plans, they think about each others needs...this man is not someone I would ever think could up andleave...make a plan to fix what's broken? YEs. Decide it's not going to work, and make a plan for leaving so as not to upset the life they've built for their son...yeah, I can see that. DISAPPEARING like some sort of ghost...just dropping out of his life like a damn vagrant hobo or something....that's beyond what I can fit into my head. That is crazy.

He has no plan for supporting her....and apparently is not pretending that is even a thought for him....he's just f-ing leaving. I'm shocked...not that he's lost or unhappy...I get that he can't help that...but he's had this wife of his, BEGGING to be let into his head, so she could help him...he completely emotionally unplugged from her and didnt even give hera chance to help him....up until very recently, when they talk about how stressed he has been, it's been "I love you, this is our life, we'll make it as long as we have each other" - now he's just going to leave??

I'm heartbroken for her...we didn't even get to finish the conversation because her son was melting down so she had to go and will call me back....but how could this happen? He's just going to leave her alone, floating out in the universe somewhere...apparently doesn't even care if she's able to keep a roof over her head? What is that? How can he walk away from her? She is so strong and is telling me "I can do this, I can rebuild my life" but she's saying it through sobbing tears....it's just unfair. This wasn't an after thought, this family they made...this wasn't a mistake...they planned this. Part of the plan was not him walking out when their child is two and moving thousands of miles away.









So...this changes the situation, re: how much time should I spend there. However I have to swing it, whatever I have to do....I will be there for her. I will drive the 25 minutes to go grocery shopping with her, maybe have a few slumber parties with her as she adjusts to being alone in her house....dinners, lunches...whatever I have to do. I cann't imagine how, in this universe of light and love....a woman like this, with the amazing heart and soul that she has, could be left like this. JUST LEFT. Left behind....in the dust. He's headed west...and I guess is not looking back?

I'm just crushed for her. I'm crushed beyondbelief for her son. Her H is talking about "I need to be a father to him" - how is he going to do that, when he's 2,000 miles away? How can he do this to her, to his son???

Thank you mamas, for your replies. We will be getting creative now, to find ways that our kids can be around each other without my DD being overwhelmed...maybe the aquarium? I'm trying to think of places where there is stimulation....he seems to need that to stay focused...so we'll have to make this the summer of finding cool places that Jimmy can be happy, so I can spend time with this precious mama friend of mine.


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## alfabetsoup (Jun 13, 2005)

to your friend. Please encourage her to seek legal advice--whether or not he sees them in his life anymore, he still has a responsibility to his son. So sorry this happened.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alfabetsoup* 







to your friend. Please encourage her to seek legal advice--whether or not he sees them in his life anymore, he still has a responsibility to his son. So sorry this happened.









:

Legally, he doesn't get to make the decision to just not provide for his son (unless maybe he signs away all parental rights? I'm not sure).

How terrible for your poor friend. My father did that when I was 8, and I haven't seen him since. It's a tough, tough thing to be intentionally abandoned by a parent -- to live with the knowledge that they made the conscious decision to not see you anymore, ever ... I don't know how my mom managed, but she did and did an amazing job of it. I hope your friend finds the strength to do so as well. She's lucky to have you there to support her through this awful time.


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## HoldensMama (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm just heartbroken for your friend, she doesn't deserve this from her husband. You are a really good friend and I think it's a great idea to go out and get some stimulation for the kids. I'm sure the little guy will need it even more now that he's basically been abandoned by his father.


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## PretzelMama (Apr 19, 2009)

What a terrible situation! My heart truly goes out to her.


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## SeekingSerenity (Aug 6, 2006)

Wow. That's a tough situation... you are such a wonderful friend to be there for her.

I don't know how people can do that. I left my three older kids in what I thought was a temporary situation to get myself on my feet nine years ago. Then my now-X-DH decided he didn't want me there at all, so he moved my children half a country away from me, knowing I would not have the resources to go and see them. It's been well over 8 years since the last time I laid eyes on them, and it's pure hell every day. (I'm actually on IM chat with my 10-year old, who's in tears because I can't buy the house next door to them... she was in diapers last I saw her, and she has no actual memory of me in person).

So I have no idea how people can make this kind of choice. I was "lost" too, and in a very bad place, but my goal was to FIX things so I could be a better parent. I was supposed to have weekends and summers for no more than a year, then revert to joint custody. Instead, my Xdh took off for the area where his family was and that was it. He wanted it that way, although there's starting to be a lot of resentment from the children because of it. That's his to deal with, though, and I hope he chokes on it (okay, that was uncharitable, but it hurts...).

My current DH has done this. He hasn't seen, spoken to or sent a dime of support to his 3rd child, who was born when he was married to a woman in Germany. Upon deciding that marriage (his 3rd) was a bust, he just left and came back to the US. His son had just turned 3. He visited him, took him to the park, took some pictures, and was gone the next day. Never looked back. I just don't know HOW he did it. The boy is 5 months older than my oldest, meaning he's almost 15. So in 12 years, there's been no attempt to be a part of his son's life, which would be almost impossible anyway from 10,000 miles away.

I simply don't know what these people think. Actually, I know what they are thinking about is themselves only. They aren't considering their child in any capacity. Their motives are entirely selfish, which hurts the child most of all.

It's going to take so much strength from this mama to get through this. She is so incredibly lucky to have you as a friend.


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## Conifer (May 4, 2009)

Hi,
I'm so sorry you and your friend are going through all this. I wanted to share a bit. I was like your Anna and my son is like her Jimmy. My friend and I met when our LOs started 3 year old preschool and we have been best friends ever since. My son was (and sometimes still is) extremely high needs. He seemed to cause chaos where ever he went. He would be the child climbing up the book shelves instead of listening to the library story time. He would be the child I was pulling down off of the store shelf while he was pitching cans across the aisle. Other parents would be trying to catch him at the park because he would climb on top of the monkey bars and hang upside down at 2. Anyway, if it were not for my friend I think I would have gone crazy. His behavior was tiring, embarrassing and kept me from joining other play groups to be with other moms. I tried music classes, tot gymnastics, soccer....anything to help us fit in a bit and channel his energy, but he was like a wild animal. My friend was like an angel. She would invite me over for play dates and I would warn her about his behavior...she thought I was exaggerating....then realized I was not. She had 2 boys at the time (3 and 2). We would come over and sometimes things would be alright and sometimes all hell broke lose. It was so completely stressful to me. I was so used to being judged. I finally broke down in tears about it at one of our get togethers. Her house was so peaceful and my son was so...NOT. She basically told me that we WERE GOING TO MAKE THIS WORK! We brainstormed ideas for how to handle the situations. Instead of just free play, we would have a couple of activities ready...like trains, playdoh or games. If my ds got to wild I would warn him and then take him and leave. I knew I was welcome back anytime so it didn't make it as devastating for me that we would leave. In previous friendships, if we had to leave it meant that we would never be invited again! We met a lot in neutral territory, parks, zoos. We got memberships to the childrens museum and would meet there. My ds is 9 now and I have a dd that is 5 (whom is soooooo laid back). She has ds (9), ds (8), ds (5) and dd (3). Part of the reason I think my ds is so much better now is that he has had a constant friend. He also understands consequences and his behavior. Things will get better for Jimmy.
When my ds was 5 my husband left us for another woman. It was awful. I was also a SAHM. Be there for your friend. If she is upset or depressed about her sons behavior talk to her about it the way that my friend did for me. Tell her that you love her and no matter how her son behaves, you are there for her and will not give up making it work. I can't even believe how relieved I was when she told this to me. I was so happy to work with her to figure out a way that we could get together. It was great to have a sort of plan of action and I was so happy to have a friend that wouldn't judge me based on my son's actions.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

I have a feeling that when her husband leaves, the kid will be a different kid completely. He's a mirror of what's been going on in the house. It's not him, it's his surroundings. He's probably extremely sensitive.

I'm sorry your friend is going through this.


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## crl (May 9, 2004)

I'm really sorry that your friend and her son are going through this.

I would suggest that you research what she can do to protect herself finacially (withdraw half the checking and savings and start a new account in just her name? cancel any joint credit cards?) and then gently pass that information along to her with an offer to help do any of it you can, ie watch her DS while she goes to the bank, etc.

I wonder if a lawyer from legal aid would meet with her to provide some advice along those lines and also advice about her options with regard to the house. (Legal aid's services are generally free, they are available to low-income people and they do often limit the kinds of services they will provide. But they should be listed in the phone book, likely under attorneys, and might have names like Rappahannock Legal Services, and you could call to find out if they would provide this service to her.) I imagine she may not be able to make the mortgage payments, but I'm not sure how complicated selling it might get. If she can get him to sign a power of attorney for the sale of the house before he actually leaves, it might simplify things. If there any vehicles, she might consider the same for those. Or having him transfer title over to her. I don't know how cooperative he would be for those things.

I would also see what I could find out about whether she would qualify for WIC/food stamps/any other aid and pass that information along.

Those are the kinds of things that I imagine I would find near impossible to think about and do while going through this. Yet they could make a huge difference to what her life looks like 6 months from now.

Catherine


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

So, friend called back and we spoke for close to three hours. My heart breaks for her....

He says he loves her, but needs to go find himself. He, apparently being the kind of the obvious, said the most complicated part about this is their son....don't you just love that? THeir son, this beautiful soul they created out of their own flesh and love for one another...is now a mere "complication"....I just can't believe that this could happen to her...I know that we can never see what life has in store...but she is honestly so amazing, how could he not see what a perfect situation he's walking away from??? I mean, I KNOW the answer to these questions....but I can't fathom, that her best friend, is going to pack whatever he can take and watch their faces disappear in the rear-view mirror. How do you go about becoming so detached, that you could do that? How do you leave this woman and this kid, floating out alone in the world? How do you leave this person, who has been your wife for more than a decade alone in the night, alone with all the around-the-house fixings, alone to "figure it out" when the power goes out in a storm or the roof starts leaking? How could he do this? She says she can make it. That if he goes for a long time and wants to come back he has to prove that he's really done the work to learn how to cope better and that he's coming back for good...as in, the rest of their lives, like they said when they got married. She is such a strong lady. She says she'll be alright....that she can rebuild her life on her own if she has to.....but it's not FAIR, she shouldn't have to. She found her man, they were so good together for so long....they built a life, bought a home of their own...made it perfect, had a beautiful son....now he needs to find himself?? He is in his mid thirties...what is WRONG with him?

He is leaving in one month (after a job he's working is finished up) and says that he's not SURE if he;ll be back or not. He says he doesn't like this life he's living (the one they painstakingly constructed over the past 12 years







) and that he has to go find a new life and he's not sure whether or not she and their son are in it. How does a person even cope with that information? They've been struggling, yeah, but nothing worse than what my husband and I have overcome...nothing worse than a lot of people...

Anyway, I'm going to help her with her business and hopefully that will help her make more money on her own...she seems to be in a better financial position than I thought as far as her earning potential with the work she does....but that's not a bird in the hand, you know? I'm going to help her as much as I can and will try and find fun things that our kids can connect with that don't cost money...I just want her to feel supported. I can't believe he would do this. Apparently he will either be gone for around 6 months or so....or he will just be GONE, forever. But he's already talking about "Oh, well Jimmy can just come out here for half the time" - he's already talking about separating this woman from her child, 2,000 mile distance, for half of the year I guess until he's in school, at which point it would be summers? how can someone DO that? I don't even know that he CAN do that...I jsut really want her to be speaking with an attorney...I asked her if she had one and she said she didn't want to be putting any energy there...I get what she means, but I feel like with the way he's talking, the hope she is holding out that he'll get out there and miss her and their son and change his mind....is not entirely realistic. I want her to be protected...she wants to be fair. What he's doing, is not fair....why should she have to be fair back?

THis is all new to her...poor dear only had this treachery revealed to her last evening...I only hope that he somehow is able to heal himself, stop drinking and discover that all this external crap he's trying to use to make himself happy is not going to TOUCH the hole he has in his heart....he needs to figure out how to plug that hole and take responsiblity for the life he's made, he needs to heal DEEP inside...not change locations and be angry, drunk and lost somewhere else.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

This guy is obviously an alcoholic. I would not be surprised if he is abusive behind closed doors, and I would not hesitate to attribute the boy's behavior solely to him.

No, sane people do not just up and leave the life they've built with their loved ones for 10+ years. That's something that alcoholics do. You can't try to reason with it, because there is no reason behind it. Frequent drinking changes the way that you think and behave even when you're sober. It is a very serious mental illness.

I'm the child of an alcoholic, and I can tell you that though things are extremely difficult right now it is most likely a blessing in disguise.

You are clearly a very kind and compassionate person. I think despite your DD's reaction to her DS, you are going to have deep regrets for the rest of your life if you do not do everything you can to help your dear friend.

If your DD has very loving parents and a healthy home environment, she will be able to overcome the stress of being around him. I think the little boy probably needs you, too. The more models he has for good behavior the better.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

I guarantee there is another woman in the picture.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
SO I've had the most awful update this morning frommy poor, poor friend.

She finally had a talk with her husband, because his self medicating and avoidance issues are just too much to let slide.....and he's leaving.

That's right. He's confessed to my friend that he's miserable, that he doesn't know if he sees Anna and Jimmy in his life anymore, that he has to find himself and that he's leaving. He is moving ACROSS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY to be on the west coast where his family is from. He said he's just going to go and "see what he finds there". We live on the East Coast. My friend is a SAHM who does a little bit of work out of her home to help with food money, etc. They JUST lost the house that has been their rental property for years....they now have a mortgage for the roof that's over their heads and he has no plan for working, etc when he leaves so that he can help her to pay for where they live, the home they have made theirs for years.

How can this be happening? How can a man, a grown man, up and leave? He is not some kid, they are not some crazy people who just met and decided to have a baby...they had a PLAN they spent years together, building a life so they could have a family and she could stay home...she put her career aside so she could be a SAHM...they've been together forever....and now, just like that, because he's feeling "lost"....he's leaving. Up and walking out the door, to be like, 2,000 miles away from his son and my friend, his wife. These are not flaky people...these are "normal" folks...who are steady and don't do crazy, rash things. They make plans, they think about each others needs...this man is not someone I would ever think could up andleave...make a plan to fix what's broken? YEs. Decide it's not going to work, and make a plan for leaving so as not to upset the life they've built for their son...yeah, I can see that. DISAPPEARING like some sort of ghost...just dropping out of his life like a damn vagrant hobo or something....that's beyond what I can fit into my head. That is crazy.

He has no plan for supporting her....and apparently is not pretending that is even a thought for him....he's just f-ing leaving. I'm shocked...not that he's lost or unhappy...I get that he can't help that...but he's had this wife of his, BEGGING to be let into his head, so she could help him...he completely emotionally unplugged from her and didnt even give hera chance to help him....up until very recently, when they talk about how stressed he has been, it's been "I love you, this is our life, we'll make it as long as we have each other" - now he's just going to leave??

I'm heartbroken for her...we didn't even get to finish the conversation because her son was melting down so she had to go and will call me back....but how could this happen? He's just going to leave her alone, floating out in the universe somewhere...apparently doesn't even care if she's able to keep a roof over her head? What is that? How can he walk away from her? She is so strong and is telling me "I can do this, I can rebuild my life" but she's saying it through sobbing tears....it's just unfair. This wasn't an after thought, this family they made...this wasn't a mistake...they planned this. Part of the plan was not him walking out when their child is two and moving thousands of miles away.









So...this changes the situation, re: how much time should I spend there. However I have to swing it, whatever I have to do....I will be there for her. I will drive the 25 minutes to go grocery shopping with her, maybe have a few slumber parties with her as she adjusts to being alone in her house....dinners, lunches...whatever I have to do. I cann't imagine how, in this universe of light and love....a woman like this, with the amazing heart and soul that she has, could be left like this. JUST LEFT. Left behind....in the dust. He's headed west...and I guess is not looking back?

I'm just crushed for her. I'm crushed beyondbelief for her son. Her H is talking about "I need to be a father to him" - how is he going to do that, when he's 2,000 miles away? How can he do this to her, to his son???

Thank you mamas, for your replies. We will be getting creative now, to find ways that our kids can be around each other without my DD being overwhelmed...maybe the aquarium? I'm trying to think of places where there is stimulation....he seems to need that to stay focused...so we'll have to make this the summer of finding cool places that Jimmy can be happy, so I can spend time with this precious mama friend of mine.


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## CrunchyChristianMama (Dec 5, 2008)

I just stumbled upon this from new posts and am so so sorry for your friend! How awful!

It worries me that she won't get a lawyer. I'm married to one and have seen lots of crap that he gets to help sort out. The best thing you can do for her (from a legal stand point) is DOCUMENT. Write down what is discussed during your phone calls and past phone calls. Write down about the drinking and any thing else that is incriminating. If this ends up in court for custody you could be the difference between that allows her to keep custody of her son. You would be amazed at how many cases have changed because of what a friend or coworker has documented!

You could also help her look into what services are available (goverment or private) to help women in these situations. Call the churches in your area and see if they offer any help. Even if she doesn't need it right now and her business seems to be able to do ok, you will be so thankful down the road if something happens that you already know where to turn her for help.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

He has absolutely no right to take that child away from her at all during their separation.

Your friend wants to be fair? Fair to who? To the person that deserted her, that chose the bottle over her?

How about being fair to her son, how about being fair to herself?

How is her family? Mom/dad? Are they supportive?

Where do you live because I just want to come and give you all a million billion hugs and support.


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## tanyam926 (May 25, 2005)

OP, you are such a great friend. She is blessed to have you in her life.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon* 
I guarantee there is another woman in the picture.

Not necessarily. Parents of special needs have a higher than normal rate of divorce. The average rate of divorce is about 50%, but if you have a special needs child, that rate goes up to about 75%, from what I remember (not sure where that came from- just my memory).

The stress of raising a child that is that demanding is overwhelming and can be too much for some. I'm not saying there for sure isn't someone else, but running away b/c he can't deal with it is far from unheard of.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
How can this be happening? How can a man, a grown man, up and leave?....He has no plan for supporting her....and apparently is not pretending that is even a thought for him....he's just f-ing leaving.

It happens ALL the time. It happened to me, for instance, almost exactly (except my child was fetal rather than born).

It sucks and your friend has a rough road ahead of her. But she will do what the rest of us do: get a job, put kid in daycare, survive as a single or solo mom.

And that will be a help to your friendship: you can have lunch together on weekdays, without the kids. That's how I keep my friendships going with women whose kids aren't ones liked by my kid.

I don't mean to be callous by focusing on your OP's question (which must seem minor to you now), but there's a win for your daughter up ahead.


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## mrs joe bubby (Mar 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
SO I've had the most awful update this morning frommy poor, poor friend.

She finally had a talk with her husband, because his self medicating and avoidance issues are just too much to let slide.....and he's leaving.

That's right. He's confessed to my friend that he's miserable, that he doesn't know if he sees Anna and Jimmy in his life anymore, that he has to find himself and that he's leaving. He is moving ACROSS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY to be on the west coast where his family is from. He said he's just going to go and "see what he finds there". We live on the East Coast. My friend is a SAHM who does a little bit of work out of her home to help with food money, etc. They JUST lost the house that has been their rental property for years....they now have a mortgage for the roof that's over their heads and he has no plan for working, etc when he leaves so that he can help her to pay for where they live, the home they have made theirs for years.










:
Your friend is lucky to have someone in her life like you at a time like this.

Please please urge her to get her a lawyer. It makes me very angry to read that he has no plans to support his son, and that he thinks it's really an option.







:


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## innle (Mar 16, 2007)

I'm glad that she has a supportive friend like you in her life. That her H has no plans to support his child is just awful, however I hope that the legal system quickly informs him of his responsibilities.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

AverysMomma, I say this as gently as possible: I think you need to take a step back emotionally from this split. You clearly love your friend. That is obvious. And it is clear you are upset for her. But, you never really know someone elses marriage. You may hear lots, but you will never know the details. Thats the way it is. What we see on the outside, even what we hear from a close and trusted friend, it is never is the full picture- the subtle looks, the late night conversations, the tone of voice, the years of history- that two married people get so much information from but do not share all with friends. At its very core, a marriage is really very private. And you friend is probably feeling things that might not be so straightforward as you see it.

And... *sometimes* leaving is better. You don't know the future. You might not even know important parts of "now". This change is hard and the emotions are raw, but sometimes the hole that is left is filled by better things. In short, this does not have to be a tradgedy, but an opportunity. Albeit one with a painful start. And, these days people don't "dissapear". She knows where his family lives. Their finances are tied and the creditors and other binding aspects of their life will not just say "Oh, right... went to find himself... sure. We'll just cross his name off then." The guy is talking about having Jimmy visit once he is settled. I doubt he has been living in such a deep hole as to not know that he would need to provide financial support for him in child support and potentially alimony for her as well.

I know your first reaction is to jump on this guy and defend your friend. It also seems like from your post you may have your own issues of abandonment. But really- things will be hard, but it may be a new beginning. I don't know. And neither do you







. You friend thinks she is up for it (maybe she has been preparing herself? From telling you she is ready to rebuild their life without him from just hours after she found out he is leaving, it sounds like the situation she is in has crossed her mind before now). She seems sad, but stable and able to pull out of it. Help her not by questioning everything and tearing this man apart and focusing on abandonment, but by building her up and keeping the future in focus and being careful not to project your own feelings to her.

Hugs to all.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Mornin' ladies...thank you so much for your good energy, my dear friend would be so filled with love to know how many people were loving her right now.

She is a lucky lady for the fact that she has an established home business to fall back on...it will take a little doing to get it running up to the level that she needs to support herself entirely...but she's already shifting in that direction and things are going to be alright for her financially I think. She has a home that has a pretty scary mortgage, not out of the ordinary, but daunting on your own, you know? But they have another home where they live for some of the year that is about three hours away..it used to be a little camp her family owned and over the years they have poured blood sweat and elbow grease into it and turned it into a beautiful home for them...so, she is thinking she will probably make that her primary residence...it's a minute walk through some trees to her sisters home (they're close) and a short short ride from her mother, who she is also close with. So...really, as far as these types of situations go....she has a TON of support, won't need to go into an "office-y" type work or need to put the boy in day care...so, she's extremely lucky for all of that.

It's just....I don't know. I really wish that she would talk with a lawyer...or at least drag him into a mediation or therapist of some kind, so they can talk about what this is goin to look like...he can't just take off leaving her with no indication of what's going to happen or how things are going to look. Assets need to be frozen, so he can't do something crazy....money needs to be taken out of hte bank and stashed...you know? I just worry about her...SHE'S normal, her heart is falling out of her chest....HE'S crazy, the way he's behaving is irrational and there is obviously something chemical/mental going on with him...I don't think that makes him bad, I've had my own struggles down that path...but I do think it means he can't be trusted not to do something wild like take half of their money for himself or something like that. I say...he wants to leave her, go west to "find himself"...fine, but she is stuck with a $2,000+ mortgage and all the bills, food costs, etc....he can just tough it out, she needs the money!

*Alexsam:* I know what you're saying mama...but I know these people, both of them. He is even saying...this has nothing to do with her, anything she's done or anything like that....he says he loves her and that she's amazing...but he's let himself build a life with her that he's come to realize isn't what he really wants. He wants to go back home to Oregon to build a new life and that he'll decide at some point while he's there if that life includes her and the boy.







This isn't her...this isn't some skeleton in their marriage that no one knows about....this is a situation where he always wanted to go back West, he doesn't like the work he's come to do out here, etc....and he just didn't bother to really speak out about this until they were two homes, one kid and 12 years into their marriage. It's obscene. It's devilish.

*Seasons:* I know...I know it happens all the time. It happened to my mom twice, it happened to my MIL HARDCORE (my understaning is, she packed the kids in the car and went to the grocery....only to come back and find him gone, no note, no reason...just gone...leaving a devoted wife, an 11 year old, 9 year old and 4 year old.) I just don't understand why men leave...I know so many families effected by leavings like this....why? How? My DH says HE doesn't get it either...that he wouldn't physically be able to walk away from his child, that he couldn't bring himself to do it, couldn't cope, not seeing her every day. That's the way I feel too. I know that women sometimes leave, too....but it seems to REALLY be a male issue. None of the men I've known who do this are awful types who beat their dog and drink beer every night until they're beligerantly drunk while watching COPS or whatever...these are "NORMAL" people...who have jobs they care about, who plan things, who have gardens and go fishing with their kids. These are all men who are supposed to have good values, who are well educated and respected in their communities....they aren't supposed to LEAVE. How can we, as women, protect ourselves from this? It seems not to have a rhym or reason to it...it isn't logical. I just don't understand. It's devilish, disgusting behavior...sometimes it doesn't work out and a split is necessary...I get that. But why do all these men just up and walk out the door? I don't know a man who has initiated an amicable divorce, stayed comitted to coparenting, etc. I only know of men who pack a bag and falt walk out...give their spouse/kids as little as they can get away with for support and set up a new and exciting life for themselves. What gives?

I know my friend will be okay. She is strong and lovely and has an amazing spirit...she has many supportive people around her, family who will help her and standing on her own two feet won't be so hard....but what about late at night, when all her "support" is in bed...and she is awake, listening to the wind howl outside her window? What then? What about when she's having a bad day or locks her keys in her car or her son is having a "meltdown city" day and she just needs a big, strong, man-hug? I'm just heartbroken for her, that she's losing her best friend...her companion. He's leaving her with a wild child boy (who, I must say is also SWEET, loving and NOT terrible...just high needs) a dog, two homes to manage and no money. How, how?

To all of you who have survived being left like this....you re in my heart. I admire the strength of a woman who can cope and push past the crippling fear and heartbreak of being faced with that moment of reality...that your other half is gone. Just doesn't want to do it anymore.









It's wrong to leave your child. Regardless of what may or may not be going on between a man and his wife....you don't leave your kid.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
<snip> It also seems like from your post you may have your own issues of abandonment. <snip>.


And you know...I'm not afraid to admit this. I've known to many women close to me, who put their WHOLE HEART AND SOUL into a marriage, into a family and had a husband who was, apparently, faking all those happy smiles and wonderful family vacations and promises of forever. I'm struck, deep in my heart, by the ease with which some men can walk out. My mother, MIL, multiple friends and many aquaintances, have all experienced this. I don't know the full story with ALL of them....but I do with a few and you know what? They really did do EVERYTHING they could, including my friend, to be outstanding wives and phenominal mothers to their children....only to be left. A couple of these women are highly intelligent women who could have had (andin two cases, were on their way to) high powered careers....but who stayed home because the decision was made with their husband that a SAHM was best.....only to be left to figure out how to enter the working world with no skills, young kids and a lingering depression and loneliness to combat on a daily basis.

If this could happen to them, couldn't it happen to me? Now that I have been a mother and continue to strive for excellence in my friendship/partnership wit my husband...I can see how hard this work is. To know that so many women can put in the work, try SO HARD, who would have been willing to do most anything to work things out had they known their H wasn't happy....that they can be left, like an old piece of luggage or something...it's disgusting.

I would never leave like that. Without trying my ASS off, I wouldn't leave....never. My family is my number one priority, my anchor and respite...i would bet my life and all my worldly posessions that my husband feels the same way......but then, so would all these women I know, they would have bet the same thing, before they were left, suddenly, with little explaination and no caring whatsoever. So....how am I different?

And how do I raise a boy, into a man who doesn't do this same thing? My friends DH has a fmaily who always put family first...who are horrified at how he is acting. They didn't model this behavior...his mom and dad have worked on their relationship so hard, to keep it loving and good all these decades...why does it not seem to matter?

You are right, this issue is one that makes me very very emotional. I've seenthe wreckage left behind, when a father walks out. It is in my own heart, as a daughter who was left. It is in my memories...of my little brother, three or four, sitting on the porch with his little back pack and his little shorts...waiting for a good-for-nothing dad, who left him and then couldn't even be bothered to come on time (or sometimes at all) to pick him up for visitation....there my brother would sit, "he's coming"...hours he would wait, never giving up on his dad.







I see this loss in my own husband...who was 11 when they came home to no daddy. I know so many people with that mark of loss on their hearts....they were just kids. Who leaves a kid??


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

If he's been spending a lot of time on the computer, to be honest, I too would say that there is an extremely high likelihood of an affair (emotional). Especially if he is playing any kind of game, either text based or something like a MMO. People leave their spouses and children all the time for people they meet online (even though it tends to start in a way where they're not out looking for it).

All of a sudden, dropping everything to go "find" himself in OR with no plan (even though he's been a planner in the past)? Um....yeah, right. I think the plan is probably to go meet someone, and move in with them.

As much as I hate snooping, it might be worth it to look at his email record or game history, not so much to confront him with but so that she will get mad enough to bother to go hire a lawyer to protect herself. If she continues on the way things are that means she's saddled with all the debt and no financial support for her or her son, while her husband goes to diddle and play where there's no reminder of his responsibilities. Nuh-uh. Time to throw cold water on that fantasy, and be sure to protect herself.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

How is the little boy doing?


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holothuroidea* 
How is the little boy doing?

She said that the night before last...she went to put him to bed and they have a little snuggle pad of pillows, etc that they snuggle in while they wind down for the night...and she said that he was very quiet...snuggled her and she put him into bed. Then, he lifted his arms to her again...so, they went back down to snuggle and he came close to her, snaking his arms around her neck...and she said she just whispered into his ear all the loving things she could think of...and that he whispered back to her, "shwahshwahushshwah", until he fell asleep like that, laying there with his mama...holding on to each other. He seems to know that something is up....but he seems to be processing by reaching out for closeness to his mama, which is good, because the hugs are doing her good, I think. Thank goodness she has her boy...it stinks that a child is caught in the middle of this...but she is such a good mother and enjoys her mothering so much, despite how challenging he can be. I'm so glad that she has him and he has her.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
And you know...I'm not afraid to admit this. I've known to many women close to me, who put their WHOLE HEART AND SOUL into a marriage, into a family and had a husband who was, apparently, faking all those happy smiles and wonderful family vacations and promises of forever. I'm struck, deep in my heart, by the ease with which some men can walk out. My mother, MIL, multiple friends and many aquaintances, have all experienced this. I don't know the full story with ALL of them....but I do with a few and you know what? They really did do EVERYTHING they could, including my friend, to be outstanding wives and phenominal mothers to their children....only to be left. A couple of these women are highly intelligent women who could have had (andin two cases, were on their way to) high powered careers....but who stayed home because the decision was made with their husband that a SAHM was best.....only to be left to figure out how to enter the working world with no skills, young kids and a lingering depression and loneliness to combat on a daily basis.

If this could happen to them, couldn't it happen to me? Now that I have been a mother and continue to strive for excellence in my friendship/partnership wit my husband...I can see how hard this work is. To know that so many women can put in the work, try SO HARD, who would have been willing to do most anything to work things out had they known their H wasn't happy....that they can be left, like an old piece of luggage or something...it's disgusting.

I would never leave like that. Without trying my ASS off, I wouldn't leave....never. My family is my number one priority, my anchor and respite...i would bet my life and all my worldly posessions that my husband feels the same way......but then, so would all these women I know, they would have bet the same thing, before they were left, suddenly, with little explaination and no caring whatsoever. So....how am I different?

And how do I raise a boy, into a man who doesn't do this same thing? My friends DH has a fmaily who always put family first...who are horrified at how he is acting. They didn't model this behavior...his mom and dad have worked on their relationship so hard, to keep it loving and good all these decades...why does it not seem to matter?

You are right, this issue is one that makes me very very emotional. I've seenthe wreckage left behind, when a father walks out. It is in my own heart, as a daughter who was left. It is in my memories...of my little brother, three or four, sitting on the porch with his little back pack and his little shorts...waiting for a good-for-nothing dad, who left him and then couldn't even be bothered to come on time (or sometimes at all) to pick him up for visitation....there my brother would sit, "he's coming"...hours he would wait, never giving up on his dad.







I see this loss in my own husband...who was 11 when they came home to no daddy. I know so many people with that mark of loss on their hearts....they were just kids. Who leaves a kid??










I'm just saying... be careful with nevers. Be careful with vilifying everyone that "leaves" (and you know, this does not have to be "black and white"- it can be for a time, it can be another living arrangement...).

How about a scenario. My dad is gay. However, he didn't feel he could be "out" and we didn't know until recently. I know he loved my mom (and still does). But, he didn't want to "wreck" our family by coming out, splitting the marriage, whatever. So, he lived bottled and someone elses life for 30 years while they raised us. He didn't tell my mom for fear it would split them, yet he didn't love her "like that". In the meantime, he suffered from depression. Their marriage had obvious problems that my mom couldn't figure out how to fix. My dad tried his hardest. And he stayed. Better? Ummm... I don't really know. I know I would not want to live like that. I know even if he "left", he would not have abandoned us, but he had another life to lead. It was not his fault. But in his staying was much misery for them as well. He tried. He stayed. He did everything that was expected of him. And the price was very, very high for him and my mom.

For some people, that need to leave is a choice between leaving and total self-destruction.

Again, I don't know these people. But, I'm saying for you and for the other readers, that sometimes, there are hard choices out there. And branding everyone who has found themselves desperately unhappy and has made the hard choice to split their family "devilish" is not fair.

And it is not just men who leave. Women "leave" too. Often.

And, I honestly was not trying to be insulting with the idea that you may have personal abandonment issues. I was saying it because it might be projecting on to her...


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

If the boys dad is self medicating etc it could be that which the boy is picking up on and making him so upset. Children pick things up and sometimes we have no idea how much.

The dad leaving may actually improve the situation with the boy when things are settled. Not saying that the dad is awful etc, but it sounds like their family situation hasn't been great and this could be having a huge impact on the poor boy.

I would be there for her but at the same time, leave some space them to sort what needs to be sorted. Call her, meet at the park etc, but try and limit it for a while.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I didn't read the whole post to see what people suggested, but I suggest that you encourage her to go to legal aid to get a divorce and seek sole custody and an immediate support order. She can also get emergency aid through health and welfare in the form of food stamps and welfare to help her until she is on her feet again.
If you are thinking about offering her help in the form of babysitting while she gets on her feet, her son may be less clingy and whiny if you watch him for her while she looks for work and has a chance to get out of the house if your home is a little more stable and supportive. It sounds like he has been in a bad situation and that can make kids really clingy and stressed out while they are with the parents who carry that stress around. If things don't improve, then I think you need to protect your child and only do things with her alone and away from the kids.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I've come to believe that kids (just like we do as adults) should absolutely be able to decide who they're going to play and be friends with. This boy may grow out of being such a whirlwind, but right now he bothers your dd and I think you should respect that.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
You are right, this issue is one that makes me very very emotional. I've seenthe wreckage left behind, when a father walks out. It is in my own heart, as a daughter who was left. It is in my memories...*of my little brother, three or four, sitting on the porch with his little back pack and his little shorts...waiting for a good-for-nothing dad, who left him and then couldn't even be bothered to come on time (or sometimes at all) to pick him up for visitation....there my brother would sit, "he's coming"...hours he would wait, never giving up on his dad.*







I see this loss in my own husband...who was 11 when they came home to no daddy. I know so many people with that mark of loss on their hearts....they were just kids. Who leaves a kid??









This makes me cry- I can just see it in my mind. You are right- I have had this same conversation with my friends. I don't know how so many men can just give up a relationship with their children. It seems so much easier for them to break this bond and somehow not feel the magnitude of what they are doing to the little life? It makes me SO MAD when I hear men making excuses for not seeing their children, or talking about following a job that would take them miles away from their kids, or this UAV of a man your friend is married to. You are so right. You do not leave your child to go "find" yourself. What is it about some men that a previously loving father can just say goodbye to a child and walk out the door, content with seeing their child sporadically or maybe not at all? I don't get it. They must be blind to their children's need for them or how could they do it?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
I'm just saying... be careful with nevers. Be careful with vilifying everyone that "leaves"

Yeah - "never" is tricky. If you'd asked me 10 years ago, I'd have said I'd "never" have an emotional affair. If you'd asked me 15 years ago, I'd have said I'd "never" leave my ex. I was wrong.

Quote:

How about a scenario. My dad is gay. However, he didn't feel he could be "out" and we didn't know until recently. I know he loved my mom (and still does). But, he didn't want to "wreck" our family by coming out, splitting the marriage, whatever. So, he lived bottled and someone elses life for 30 years while they raised us. He didn't tell my mom for fear it would split them, yet he didn't love her "like that". In the meantime, he suffered from depression. Their marriage had obvious problems that my mom couldn't figure out how to fix. My dad tried his hardest. And he stayed. Better? Ummm... I don't really know. I know I would not want to live like that. *I know even if he "left", he would not have abandoned us*, but he had another life to lead. It was not his fault.
Yeah. But, the husband of the OP's friend _is_ abandoning them. He's moving across the country, and has made no provisions for making sure that his wife and child have a place to live, or food to eat. He doesn't know if he has room in his life for them. Even if he were also gay (certainly happens - it turns out that my ex, which sure took me by surprise when I found out), that's not a reason to abandon your family, and dick around crossing the country to "see what you find", while your family struggles.

Quote:

For some people, that need to leave is a choice between leaving and total self-destruction.

Again, I don't know these people. But, I'm saying for you and for the other readers, that sometimes, there are hard choices out there. And branding everyone who has found themselves desperately unhappy and has made the hard choice to split their family "devilish" is not fair.
Agreed...but there's a profound difference between leaving and abandoning. Like the OP, I have my memories. My parents stayed together while I was growing up...but I've been the one trying to explain to my son why his dad didn't call when he said he would, why his dad didn't show up for a visit, why his dad gave him an IOU for a Christmas present, etc. etc. etc. I'm the one who actually kicked my ex out - but he's the one who played treat dad for a year, then dropped his son like an old boot. There is NO excuse for that. Hard choices? Sure - and he chose _wrong_.

Quote:

And it is not just men who leave. Women "leave" too. Often.
Very true. The whole "why do _men_ do this?" vibe in this thread bothers me. Women leave, and women also abandon their kids.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Very true. The whole "why do _men_ do this?" vibe in this thread bothers me. Women leave, and women also abandon their kids.

Of course women also abandon their kids but (correct me if I am wrong), normally it seems they leave less and when they do it is for more understandable and apparent reasons- mental health, addictions etc. It seems as if often in divorce men have a much harder time maintaining a closeness to their kids and are able to let go of these relationships with so much more ease then a healthy functioning woman ever could. It is so hard to understand. Especially when they justify the lack of relationship and blame it on everyone but themselves.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Yeah. But, the husband of the OP's friend _is_ abandoning them. He's moving across the country, and has made no provisions for making sure that his wife and child have a place to live, or food to eat. He doesn't know if he has room in his life for them. Even if he were also gay (certainly happens - it turns out that my ex, which sure took me by surprise when I found out), that's not a reason to abandon your family, and dick around crossing the country to "see what you find", while your family struggles.<snip>

And I want to make it clear that ^THIS^ is what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that a parent who can't be with their partner anymore is a failure, or WRONG...I'm saying that to up and leave and simply not be around for your kids anymore is sinister...what happens between a married couple is their business...but when you make a child with someone, you are entering into a pact to care for ALL the needs of that human until they're old enough to care for themselves..and even after that point, you still have an emotional responsibility to that person for the rest of your life. You can't make a baby with someone, be a good dad/mom and then LEAVE and not come around anymore. THAT is my objection. I've actually known of one couple, who I can say honestly went about divorcing in the right way. There were absolutely hurt feelings on both sides, there was fighting, there was crying and screaming, there were feelings of loss and betrayal and all the horrid crap that comes with one person (in this case the woman) deciding that it'snot working and s/he wants out.....but you know what? They kept this ugliness away from their kids, they went to counseling for the specific purpose of being able to coparent these kids and then they DID IT. Those kids were their number ONE priority...and it really helped them to ease out of the hurt and devastation of their divorce...and these people who felt so much poison actually developed a great friendship over the years...I think because they stayed in each others lives through the positive act of continuing to love responsibly the children they made, in love, together. They never lost sight of them as being the number one important issue. So....it CAN be done. In these peoples case, there was infidelity, the woman cheated on her husband...even with that, he didn't take it out on the kids by disppearing...so?? Why do so many people have to leave like that?

I hope that's clear...I'm not in any way saying horrible things about people who just can't work it out...I get that! I really do! In fact...as a kid who wished SOOOO bad that my mother would have left my step dad...I really get that when it needs to be over, it's often times BETTER for the children involved that it ends...it's people who think the end of a marriage means the end of their responsibility to their kids that makes me sick. It's like my friends H....he is leaving, he does not have a plan for working...like I said, they have a $2,000+ a month MORTAGE...that's before food, gas, whatever else..she needs to come up with $2,000+/ month. With NO notice, she has to start bringing that kind of money in. They are broke...no money saved, behind on bills, etc....and he's just leaving her, with a two year old, to "figure it out" and doesn't seem to really get how completely awful it's going to be for their two year old when he just leaves and doesn't come home one day. He has made it clear that if he comes back at all any time soon to see them, it's not going to be less than six months, probably more, before he does.....how does a person DO THAT. That's not okay...it's simply not okay. That's not a marriage not working, that's not leaving your wife...that's abandonment. Period.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
<snip>
Very true. The whole "why do _men_ do this?" vibe in this thread bothers me. Women leave, and women also abandon their kids.

You know....women DO leave. But women don't leave anywhere NEAR as much of the time as men do...come on guys, COME ON. I would not say that there is a HUGE problem in our country with mothers leaving their children.....I would A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y say that there is a GIGANTIC problem in our country, with men leaving the children they create.

Who here is going to say that there is just as big a problem with mamas leaving as with dads leaving??? And ESPECIALLY in the types of situations I'm talking about...middle class families, where plans are made and children brought into the world ON PURPOSE...mamas putting careers aside to stay home with the kids, etc. and then dad one day deciding "eh...not for me" and walking...and then just stop taking so much an interest in their kids lives...seeing the kids as "from my previous marriage". I've seen this WAY too many time to believe that it's a coincidence...that somehow my life has been chock full of these stories.

Why is it socially acceptable for a man, so long as he's paying some sort of support, to stop taking an interest in his childrens life? Why do these men remain respected memebers of their communities and families? I've seen too many kids missing the hell out of their dad, to believe that it's not a problem.

My real puzzlement in all of this, the thing that truly makes me guts turn...is that a woman can think that she has a good mate, that she's picked a good provider with good morals who wants to build a family with her...and then that person can one day pull the plug on his feelings for his kids...and a good dad who spends time with his kids and tucks them in at night and all of that...can walk out the door and not miss that stuff, not care that they barely see their kids...has more important things to do....as if, all that time, they were faking or something? Tha's my problem...how can they stop caring?


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
You know....women DO leave. But women don't leave anywhere NEAR as much of the time as men do...come on guys, COME ON. I would not say that there is a HUGE problem in our country with mothers leaving their children.....I would A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y say that there is a GIGANTIC problem in our country, with men leaving the children they create.

Who here is going to say that there is just as big a problem with mamas leaving as with dads leaving???

Yup. Or even "duh." Per U.S. Census 2006, "there were 12.9 million one-parent families in 2006 - 10.4 million single-mother families and 2.5 million single-father families."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
My real puzzlement in all of this, the thing that truly makes me guts turn...is that a woman can think that she has a good mate, that she's picked a good provider with good morals who wants to build a family with her...and then that person can one day pull the plug on his feelings for his kids...and a good dad who spends time with his kids and tucks them in at night and all of that...can walk out the door and not miss that stuff, not care that they barely see their kids...has more important things to do....as if, all that time, they were faking or something? Tha's my problem...how can they stop caring?

And this is a worthy topic for discussion. (Again, I speak as yet another of those nice middle-class, educated, mid-30s married women whose husband suddenly abandoned me + child - he's never met my/our child, in fact. Married a friend of mine and had more kids.)


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons* 
Yup. Or even "duh." Per U.S. Census 2006, "there were 12.9 million one-parent families in 2006 - 10.4 million single-mother families and 2.5 million single-father families."<snip>

Well and that's not to say that it's not AS horrible...I make no excuses for women who make the decision to walk out on their kids, these humans they grew in their womb and pushed out of their bodies...that's just as terrible, if not more, for a mother to not want to see or know her kids anymore....

But I do think there is an actual, severely consequential(sp) issue with menfolk walking out.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons* 
<snip> (Again, I speak as yet another of those nice middle-class, educated, mid-30s married women whose husband suddenly abandoned me + child - he's never met my/our child, in fact. Married a friend of mine and had more kids.)

And it's not to say that it's somehow "less" awful in a low income, inner city area with a mama who met and "accidentally" made a baby with a guy she's not married to...I don't necessarily attach too much importance to marital status, age, education level, income, etc...I don't have an expectation that women in those situations should just expect their men to walk out...

But I do think that it is worse, when you PLAN, you work hard together to buy a house in a neighborhood picked specifically for it's school district and proximity to playgrounds and your church or whatever....when you count down to "TTC date" and then get pregnant and kindly inform your office that you are having a baby and you and your husband have decided that having a SAHM is better for you and then you stay home and do projects and throw yourself into mothering and think "Wow, this is the plan, the plan is working..." and then wake up one day and he pulls the rug out from under you "This is not the life I wanted".....WHAT?

Oh, and don't get me started on the men who abandon one family only to start another....THAT really gets me going. My FIL did that....my MIL came to find out, after they'd been married (and htey had known each other a long time) that before he became a doctor and was still going through med school, that he'd had a family with his high school sweetheart. So...she stuck with him and supported him through med school, gave him two beautiful children....and then, as he approached the midway point of his Residency period, decided he didn't want her anymore. She had nothing and he was a flat broke "gonna be" doctor. He went on to meet and marry my MIL.....became a successful doctor and had three children with her...he never really had anything to do with his first kids ever again. THen, he left my MIL and their three, including my DH.....and two of the three kids haven't seen him since. My DH sought him out when he was almost 20 and they have a so so surface relationship...you know, a card at christmas,etc. That's it.

So...I don't know. I don't know at all what any of this means. I guess it just sucks to hear my awesome soul of a friend say out loud "He's just leaving, my whole life and my best friend...and he's going to leave me alone? I'm going to be alone?" - what do you say to that? How do you explain to her how this could happen...?


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

To clarify my post/s above (not that we disagree necessarily, not sure so I'm clarifying)...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Well and that's not to say that it's not AS horrible...I make no excuses for women who make the decision to walk out on their kids, these humans they grew in their womb and pushed out of their bodies...that's just as terrible, if not more, for a mother to not want to see or know her kids anymore....

But I do think there is an actual, severely consequential(sp) issue with menfolk walking out.

I don't think a man abandoning his family, or a woman doing it, have any difference in awfulness/consequences. I'm just saying than men abandon their families far, far, FAR more often than women do.

(And as most people on this board know, I do not believe that children raised by a single parent are in any way disadvantaged compared to those raised by two parents; children don't "need dads" for instance, they just need one solid loving parent of either sex. So there aren't more "consequences" to kids abandoned by dads than those abandoned by moms.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
And it's not to say that it's somehow "less" awful in a low income, inner city area with a mama who met and "accidentally" made a baby with a guy she's not married to...I don't necessarily attach too much importance to marital status, age, education level, income, etc...I don't have an expectation that women in those situations should just expect their men to walk out...

Like you, I am NOT saying that lower-income or younger or unmarried moms should somehow expect their partners to walk out. I just point to my middle-class, educated, etc. details because the ugly common stereotype of single moms is that of an unmarried, young, lower-income woman, often non-white. And that is belied by statistics (2/3 of single moms are single b/c of divorce or widowhood, 2/3 over age 21, etc; I don't know about race) as well as my own experience. So I shout it a lot because the corollary to the ugly untrue stereotype is a weird sense of immunity from divorce, by some demographic groups. And as this thread shows, NO partnered woman is safe from her partner abandoning her. If I have a mission outside of great parenting, it is for women to know the risks of becoming financially dependent on their partners.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons* 
To clarify my post/s above...

I don't think a man abandoning his family, or a woman doing it, are any difference in awfulness/consequences. I'm just saying than men abandon their families far, far, FAR more often than women do.

Oh no, I completely agree.

What I was meaning to get across, is that I believe the question "Why do men leave" is a bigger one than "why do women leave". It just seems to me...that in every barrel of apples, you're going to have some less than awesome fruit. Of all the people on the planet who become parents...some shouldn't have. Of those who shouldn't have, some of them will end up abandoning their kids and some of them WILL be female.

The thing that is startling is not the fact that some people abandon their kids (male and female) it is to do with the vast number of seemingly ordinary, thinking feeling men who feel free to walk away and stop seeing their kids...a lot of these men aren't "bad apples"...there is nothing else about them that would really make you stop and think, "They shouldn't have had kids" or "Oh, well, are you surprised he ended up being an abandoner?" - you know?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons* 
If I have a mission outside of great parenting, it is for women to know the risks of becoming financially dependent on their partners.

VERY important. Doesn't strike so close to home for me because I'm 100% in charge of finances around here, budgeting, banking, all of it.....but it's so dangerous for so many reasons when one partner hands everything over to the other partner and has no sense of what their financial state is.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
The thing that is startling is not the fact that some people abandon their kids (male and female) it is to do with the vast number of seemingly ordinary, thinking feeling men who feel free to walk away and stop seeing their kids...a lot of these men aren't "bad apples"...there is nothing else about them that would really make you stop and think, "They shouldn't have had kids" or "Oh, well, are you surprised he ended up being an abandoner?" - you know?

YES! The question of WHY so many men do this isn't easily answered with "oh, he must have been a bad egg and you should have known his type when you partnered with him." And the sooner we straight women, as a group, admit the complexity of the answer, the better we can answer the to-me-related question of securing the path to freedom for most/all women, so nobody is trapped, financially, in a partnership she wants out of. The answer to that second question similarly IS NOT a simple, "well, just partner with the right kind of guy in the first place and you'll always be ok."

We have strayed way off original topic, OP, but I hope this is still a valuable and relevant discussion, given your follow-up posts?


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