# How to encourage (STRONGLY) weaning... Forced Weaning...



## happyday8598 (Nov 19, 2001)

My son is 3 1/2 and I'm ready to stop nursing him. For my own selfish reasons, I'm sure, but I also feel that at 3 1/2 it's not such a horrible thing to encourage.

I'm hoping to apply an herbal tincture to my nipple that is safe for him to injest, and also safe for my nipple. Something that doesn't taste so pleasant, that would make him not want to nurse.

Comfrey? Licorice Root?

What would any of you recommend or what have you all used if you thought of weaning in this fashion??

Love


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Why would you turn something that has been a comfort to him for his entire life into something yucky?









If you want to wean, that is of course your decision, and 3.5 years is excellent!, but why not do it in a gentle and loving manner instead of leaving him with a memory of yuckiness? We never know what our children will remember from their early childhood, but certain types of events tend to stick in the memory more than others. I would worry that he will be rather less than supportive of his future wife's breastfeeding efforts if what stands out in one of his earliest memories is trying to nurse and finding it suddenly nasty.


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

This is an old-school method of ending nursing FAST. My DH's grandmother's sister weaned her 3-1/2 YO by putting mud on her nipples. Same concept.

I agree with Meiri, not sure that's the best way to go about weaning. He should be able to understand the end of hte nursing relationship now. Maybe you can set a date, cross out the days together and have a weaning party at the end?


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meiri*
Why would you turn something that has been a comfort to him for his entire life into something yucky?









If you want to wean, that is of course your decision, and 3.5 years is excellent!, but why not do it in a gentle and loving manner instead of leaving him with a memory of yuckiness? We never know what our children will remember from their early childhood, but certain types of events tend to stick in the memory more than others. I would worry that he will be rather less than supportive of his future wife's breastfeeding efforts if what stands out in one of his earliest memories is trying to nurse and finding it suddenly nasty.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

I'm hoping to apply an herbal tincture to my nipple that is safe for him to injest, and also safe for my nipple. Something that doesn't taste so pleasant, that would make him not want to nurse.
I've thought about this too. I've heard from some places that is horrible and other places that it is not so horrible.

I think it probably would be traumatic if it tasted horrible. But what if the taste wasn't that bad...just not as good.

Kind of like the difference between going from Godiva Chocolate to vinager and going from Godiva Chocolate to Carob. They wouldn't be traumatized by the difference...just might say "Oh, that's not so great. I think I'd rather have something else."

But I think a lot of older kid nursing is for comfort. I actually felt desperate to wean a few months ago and decided to overdose on peppermint to lower my supply. I never paid attention to how much DS was swallowing (of course when he was a baby...yes), but started paying attention after the peppermint. He would nurse for about 15 minutes and I only heard him swallow once or twice. I'm not sure if peppermint was effective or if I usually don't produce a lot of milk. But anyway, it did not discourage him from nursing. I started thinking, this is ridiculous...if he's going to be sucking on my boobs until he's thirty-five, he should at least get some health benefits from it.

Anyway, good luck to you! Maybe you can find some studies on the internet...whether or not weaning like that causes emotional trauma.

Dina


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

I agree with Meiri as well. I would think it would be traumatic to wean in this way. What if it doesn't work? Is there another way to set some limits or discuss the issues with him? My ds is 3 1/2 and I think he would rather we talk about it than for me to make a unilateral decision. I hope you find a solution that honors your relationship with your son, and your obvious committment to nursing to him.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

I agree with other posters that this would be a traumatic way to wean. It's the entire fact of _changing_ it(no matter how mild or bitter the taste) that would be hard on him after his entire life of counting on it being his comfort. Instead of comforting him it would be kind of "turning" on him. It would be better to leave the breast the same so it's always a good memory for him and change the nursing instead.

I do think it would be best to talk it over with him and give him some sort of time frame of when the final weaning will take place. Maybe on the day that you decide it's done you can go do something special together. Maybe before you actually wean him he can go to the toy store and pick a special "weaning toy" to help him get through. I've heard of this helping.


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## happyday8598 (Nov 19, 2001)

Caleb doesn't understand this whole "mom is done" phenomenon. I've tried talking with him about it, tried coming up with other ways to "distract" him from nursing... rubbing his back when he wants to nurse, laying down and reading a book, gently talking about our day together, tubby time, go outside and play, telling him it hurts mommy when he nurses bc I don't have any more milk in me to give to him.

I've talked to him about stopping so we could have a booby party, complete with a booby cake, and booby balloons.

Nada.

Not intersted.

I was thinking of just telling him now (before I put stuff on) that when my milk is not good for him anymore, it (or my body) starts tasting yucky bc it's telling him that it's not for nourishment anymore. I can work out an emotional bond in many other ways. We're a very close family, so we can find another means for emotional moments together. So that day when my milk does taste yucky, he can relate the 2 and know that it is because it's time to be done.

I see where you could think that it's cruel, but my intentions are pure, and he would obviously be informed to the reason why it's not good anymore.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I will answer your question from the perspective of the herbalist.

Aloe vera gel and sage tea (you drink) will eliminate the milk and make the nipple bitter.

Both dry up milk production and the aloe is bitter to the taste but safe for consumption.

HTH


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Instead of putting something bad tasting on your nipple, why not just not give them the nipple in the first place?


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

Instead of putting something bad tasting on your nipple, why not just not give them the nipple in the first place?
You mean cut it off and give it to the child?


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
why not just *not* give them the nipple in the first place?

I believe she means to just _not_ nurse him.


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)




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## AnnaReilly (Mar 8, 2003)

I can sympathize. My DD is 22 months and I think I'm about ready to wean. (Pretty uncommon around here so flame away everyone if you must...) I think child-led weaning is awesome, but I also believe nursing is a relationship and both parties need to be comfortable with it.

However, I don't think the idea of putting something on my nipples to change the taste is something I would do. You said...

Quote:

I was thinking of just telling him now (before I put stuff on) that when my milk is not good for him anymore, it (or my body) starts tasting yucky bc it's telling him that it's not for nourishment anymore.
I don't really like the idea of lying to a child in that way. For example, I won't tell DD that there aren't any more cookies - I say she can't have any more because one is enough and she can have a banana instead. Yeah, she takes it a little harder, but I think it's better for her to come to terms with the fact that simply because there are cookies doesn't mean she can eat them.

What does he do when he asks to nurse and you say no? How do you handle his reaction? What does he do when he asks for a cookie (or other special treat) and you say no and how do you handle that? Maybe thinking about it more abstractly (as a special treat) will help you come up with other solutions.

Good luck in finding a solution that works for your whole family!!!

---Disclaimer---
I am not trying to say that breastmilk is directly comparable to a cookie just making analogies.


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## AnnaReilly (Mar 8, 2003)

And check out this thread:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=160799

For some good distraction-type things to maybe cut back on some of his boredom nursings.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

For a different perspective...I found this written by Jean Liedloff (Author of the Continuum Concept". It's about her visit to Bali. You can find it on this website http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...kFromBali.html

_"There was something interesting about their nursing and weaning. What they did, which I would not at all have expected, was when they wanted to wean a child of two or three because they were pregnant with another, they would put bad tasting juice on the nipple. I tried to think about it with an open mind because it looked hostile - like a nasty thing to do to a child. But then when I thought about it, perhaps what's happening is that when the nipple tastes bad, the child rejects it. The mother is not rejecting the child and causing him to feel unwelcome or unworthy."_


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

happyday! I've missed you, where have you been?! Long time no see!









Malia is still nursing to, I'm also ready for her to wean but with the younger one still in heavy nursing age I sure don't see ti happening. Nor do I feel right encouraging it, just so she can watch the baby nurse ifykwim. Sometimes I just feel like I can't physically give of myself anymore and I tell her "mommy's milk is tired, it needs to rest" and it helps postpone and spread out the length between nursing. She takes this real well too- I feel like it is very positve. I've been tandem nursing for 15 months now, hard to believe!

Caleb is so fortunate he's been given natures best for so long- good for you, mama! I think if I had to wean Malia right now (since they are pretty close in age I'm trying to think what I would do for her) I would give her time to adjust to the idea by saying "In a week when we go to the zoo/festival/weaning party/favorite place mommies milk will be all gone." and remind her and talk about it as it approaches that it is coming up and what it means. Then once that event passes you could remind him when he asks that after the "event" the milk is all gone, and now mommy can comfort you in other ways.

Anyway, Em, it is so nice to see you- I think about you more than you know







Hope you are doing ok!


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

thirtycats, that is rather interesting. Reminds me of quite the way a pregnancy might make a child reject the breast.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow*
thirtycats, that is rather interesting. Reminds me of quite the way a pregnancy might make a child reject the breast.

I think it would just need to be a substance that is not bad enough to make junior reject the breast in one sitting. That WOULD be traumatic...for mom and child-emotionally AND physically. But if you have something that's not too horrible, but bad enough for the child to slowly wean after a week or so...I don't see what harm that would do.

Dina


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

hi em!
i do not see this as hideously horrible, & are y'all serious in thinking a 'mainstream' board is going to assist efforts to gently wean a going-on-four yr old? this board is not just for child-led weaners. are you going to seriously tell me how cruel i was to make my 7 yr old stop instead of letting her wean on her own?

i hope my next two wean on their own, but if one day (like i was with my dd) i am ready to stop, stop we will (and i would prolly not use a bitter substance on my nips, but i don't think it is so traumatic it is going to color an entire childhood's worth of loving nursing.)

do not use comfrey internally, it has been linked to liver damage. (and sage or peppermint tea in great quantities have done nothing to my milk supply or taste- garlic, too.) getting pg was the only thing that affected my supply, lol, and that solution is not for everyone.

anyway, good to see you! and good luck! (sam is the same age, & nowhere near ready to stop. he would have fits, and i can't think of anything bitter enough to dissuade him from nursing at this point. luckily i don't mind yet. but i can see maybe not wanting to drag it on to 7 again, that was pretty rough. my boobs want a rest. one day.)

suse


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
do not use comfrey internally, it has been linked to liver damage. (and sage or peppermint tea in great quantities have done nothing to my milk supply or taste- garlic, too.) getting pg was the only thing that affected my supply, lol, and that solution is not for everyone.suse

Speaking as a Master Herbalist; Comfrey leaf internally is fine, comfrey root only under the supervision of a MH or CiH.

Sage dries up milk production, peppermint increases it.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

i do not see this as hideously horrible, & are y'all serious in thinking a 'mainstream' board is going to assist efforts to gently wean a going-on-four yr old? this board is not just for child-led weaners. are you going to seriously tell me how cruel i was to make my 7 yr old stop instead of letting her wean on her own?

Very good points!

Dina


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

the american herbal products association, the herb industry trade organization, recommends all comfrey products be labeled for external use only.

some herbalists claim that the PAs (pyrrolizidine alkaloids- the components found to cause liver damage) are not water soluble, so that comfrey leaf tea should be free of them, but fda scientists have found PAs in it as well as the root preparations.

my best friend's dad used to raise comfrey commercially (along with rabbits, worms, & bees) & boy, did i read a lot of his comfrey advocating books back then (this would be about 30 years ago.) omg, we used a lot of comfrey! 'the miracle plant!' a lot more than you would get rubbing it on your nipples, and we are not dead yet, but i still would shy away from putting toxic liver- damaging substances in my baby's mouth (other than the small amounts of oxalic acid contained in spinach or something. just about every plant has *something* toxic if you eat it in large enough doses!)

begging to differ, altho' merely a master gardener & amateur herbalist, suse


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

I don't have any advice, I can't even say I wouldn't do it cause you sound kind of desperate and I can relate to that in other parenting ways but I did want to say that I think it's great that you made it to three and a half and I hope you can find a middle ground.


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## happyday8598 (Nov 19, 2001)

Thank you Jeca... It is a great thing that I made it to 3 1/2... Especially through the comments I hear all around me!

It's funny... I post this, and it's been 24+ hours that Cal's nursed. Not really his choice, but last night he wanted to nurse, and I told him the next time he woke up in the middle of the night he could. He never woke up, and in the morning I'd started my routine so wasn't right next to him tempting him with my odors!! I worked all day today, and unfortunately was only able to see him for about 35 minutes, and he mentioned nursing, but got distracted along the lines...

I'm sure as soon as I climb into bed he'll be all over me, but maybe not.

You all have made some very valid points that I need to process before I make a decision on how to wean. At this point, I think he can feed off my negative energy about nursing him (sometimes, it's not like I ***HATE*** to nurse, but I'm obviously aggravated by it at times). How is that going to effect his nursing view? That could be detrimental to him in some way, too... It's weighing what could be worse...

Hey, Aly!! Great to see you again, too!! I just checked out your pics on shutterfly... AMAZING! Every single one of them was so creative and just breathtakingly beautiful. I love the one with Malia and **eesh, I can't remember his name!! SORRY!! It's right there in my mind..** sitting on the lake, feet hanging down with the ripples of water from the point of last touchdown...
You got talent girl!

Hey, Suse!!


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Not really addressing your question, but I weaned dd after a year of difficult tandem nursing. I know she picked up some of my negative vibes about it, in spite of how I tried to hide how I felt. I worried that she would have bad feelings about weaning and feel rejected blah blah.

Maybe there were some tough times for her in the last few weeks as she weaned - I cut time down by counting for her as she nursed - but you know what? She talks sooo fondly about nursing now, that all she remembers is the wonderful times, not the difficult weaning. After three and a half years, any memory of being cross at you saying no is going to fade compared to memories of the hours he's spent at your breast.


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## happyday8598 (Nov 19, 2001)

Britishmum, that was beautiful!

It's what I feel and thought inside of me, but didn't realize until I read your words.

He does have 3 1/2 years of great memories that are going to be difficult to erase.

*smiling a little more now, thank you so much!*


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
the american herbal products association, the herb industry trade organization, recommends all comfrey products be labeled for external use only.

some herbalists claim that the PAs (pyrrolizidine alkaloids- the components found to cause liver damage) are not water soluble, so that comfrey leaf tea should be free of them, but fda scientists have found PAs in it as well as the root preparations.

my best friend's dad used to raise comfrey commercially (along with rabbits, worms, & bees) & boy, did i read a lot of his comfrey advocating books back then (this would be about 30 years ago.) omg, we used a lot of comfrey! 'the miracle plant!' a lot more than you would get rubbing it on your nipples, and we are not dead yet, *but i still would shy away from putting toxic liver*- *damaging substances in my baby's mouth* (other than the small amounts of oxalic acid contained in spinach or something. just about every plant has *something* toxic if you eat it in large enough doses!)


Baby tylenol or advil or even tempra is harder on a baby/child's liver than an herb rubbed on a nipple.

I think proportion needs also to be discussed. While I do not doubt your experience with herbs and comfrey







I wonder if it applies to this situation.

The leaf of comfrey does not contain PA's and there has never been a documented case of liver toxicity from the leaf.

The cases of toxicity from the root cannot be directly linked to the comfrey root entirely due to outstanding health conditions of the patient.

Labeling herbal products is a political affair, the warnings are based not only on health concerns but political concerns as well.

One last tidbit. 3,000 people die every year from tylenol overuse. Noone has died from comfrey root consumption, ever.


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

T
Thirtycats, I read some of your website. Do you mind if I quote you a little bit?


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

more ot, lol... i don't doubt your superior experience & training, mountain mom (i used to be a mountain mom too, lol, i lived at 7500 ft. now i am a flatlander, alas), and i have no doubts that the fda can get political (witness stevia), but are you saying that they straight-out lied, & anyone qualified to test for PAs without an agenda absolutely cannot find any? (and i don't use baby tylenol, either  bad stuff!)

i would love to have apricot give it a looksee (i lost track of my other pro chemist friend.) who would this benefit, which pharm co is going to lose money over it? (i'm not asking rhetorically or sarcastically, i want to know!) i'm still pissy about losing legal tryptophan.

i'm sure the quantities are miniscule, but i'd still be wary 'just because', you know? like the teeny drop of roundup (gasp! yes, i have used it- war with the bermuda grass- even us mostly organic gardeners know when we're licked, if we don't have expensive certifications to maintain- another bureaucratic bit of bullshit) i splash on my skin is unlikely to kill me, but i still wash like mad envisioning it making its way into my milk supply. (yes, yes, lol, i know comparing comfrey to roundup is ridiculous, but it's all i could come up with on 5 hours of sleep pre-coffee. you get my point, even if my example was ludicrous.)

have you posted anything about comfrey in 'health', mm? i'll search & read, if so. very interesting considering all the reading i've done in the past.

suse


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

Thirtycats, I read some of your website. Do you mind if I quote you a little bit?

I suppose so?????

Dina


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
but are you saying that they straight-out lied, & anyone qualified to test for PAs without an agenda absolutely cannot find any? suse

No not at all. What I am referring to is that there are no PA content in the leaf of the plant only in the root. As well the cases of toxicity were further investigated by the herbal community and the results were unconcluded due to other mitigating circumstances with the patient such as over use of alcohol bad diet and poor nutrition.

Gotta run I will put up references later.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

well gee, alcohol abuse couldn't inflict liver damage







.

i still don't quite understand; my sources say there are PAs in the leaf, & your sources say not. man, this is the kind of thing i'd like to see with my own eyes, lol. (if i had some growing now i'd bet there would be few alkaloids in any part of the plant; i used some yarrow as a poultice the other day to staunch bleeding in my foot when i found a piece of glass out in the garden, & it has been raining so much it had as much taste as iceberg lettuce! usually that's a pretty damn bitter herb! it still worked ok btw, but wow. i've never had that happen before; most of my herbal growing exp was in socal where extended rain was not much of an issue.)

suse


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I think it is important to consider to that whether or not the pa content exsists in the herb or root or both is that it is variable and has exsisted in the plant for centuries. It is not a new constituent meerly one that is now identified.

Almost all formulations that include comfrey root, include other potent roots specific to the liver strength.

If the leaf contained any it would be in trace amounts.

I will try to find my references and I will consult with my herbal prof. to get his view and then pm you.

Now back to your regular program......


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

just a comment on tylenol (a digression, i know)
tylenol's liver toxicity occurs only after an overdose. the mechanism is such that the normal metabolic pathway for breakdown gets saturated and the byproducts get diverted into another pathway, and that's when toxicity occurs. tylenol taken at appropriate doses has no liver toxicity. and the majority of tylenol-related deaths are due to intentional overdose or overdose+alchohol abuse.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

emily knows i am the queen of ot rambling







, amongst the least of my many faults. forgiven?

if i have any future ideas about weaning i'll post 'em, but for now we're cool (i vaguely remember with my dd finally just saying 'NO!' at 7, she was like, 'oh- ok.' & we were done. i think i'm pretty certain sam would not aquiesce so quietly yet.) i can also bet he would have about as much interest in the weaning party as caleb, lol. it would be a party of bitter tears indeed. i'd feel like an ogre. maybe it works when they are 'ready', but if i had to absolutely wean right now i'd just have a talk & hold him while he cried. pretending it was a party would be salt in the wound.

suse


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## AuntNi (Feb 26, 2003)

I think you've been a saint to nurse him this long, if you're not enjoying it anymore. I have those "nails on a chalkboard" moments, too.

Have you read "Mothering Your Nursing Toddler"? She had lots of good tips for weaning in there. She mentioned telling the child that "it's broken and can't be fixed." I'm all for telling the truth to my DD, but I don't see the harm in this one.

I also have a DD who has awful tantrums when she's denied the breast for no reason, but she accepts it when I tell her that "num-nums are empty". I would think it might be easier for your son to understand an explanation than why, all of a sudden, mommy's breast tastes nasty.

Just my opinion, from someone who's getting close that point myself.

Let us know how it goes!

Best,
Nichole


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