# Breastfeeding isn't working...(looking for support, I guess.)



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

So - I have posted a few times about this. Don't really have the energy to rewrite it all. But Zoe (nearly 4 months) just is not gaining weight. No matter what I do, nothing is working. I am seriously starting to freak out. The Ped. I have been taking her to has been wonderful but I think this is the end of his patience. Last appt. - yesterday - her weight took a nose dive. She has to go in Satarday AM and if she's not improving he wants to hospitalize her.

So, yeah, any good vibes - greatly appreciated. But maybe admitting her is for the best, I need to know why she won't grow.

Blah.








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## fireweed (Nov 27, 2007)




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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

I am sorry.


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## RoadWorkAhead (Sep 8, 2005)

BTDT, got the t-shirt and tube to prove it. Do you know if its the quantity of milk or what? I'm assuming that its not quantity, and I remember issues with reflux and possibly dairy IIRC. I'm here if you need to talk.


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## ChristyH (Dec 10, 2003)

s mama


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## Cuau (Jul 27, 2006)

Have you talked to a lactation consultant?. I'm sorry I don't know all the story. Maybe a LC can help.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Thanks!

No, not quantity for sure. There has to be something going on within her. Yes, reflux...medicated for that...among a zillion other things tried. *sigh*
We have a Ped. on board and 2 local LLL leaders have been helping.

She was gaining slowly - but now it's just going DOWN.

But color me baffled because she is the most content and happy little baby ever. I don't get any of this.


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## clutterbug (Apr 6, 2007)

I hope you get things figured out soon.


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## PatioGardener (Aug 11, 2007)

I hope that everyone works _with_ you to figure it out. And I hope the explanation is simple and easy to fix.
Sending good vibes your way







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## abc123xyz (Aug 28, 2007)

My son had trouble gaining weight too...I can sympathize with you. However, we didn't have reflux or any medical issues...he is just lean and lanky. He has only this last dr's visit passed the 3% mark. MANY MANY HUGS TO YOU!!! I will keep you in my prayers...I know it can be frustrating. It seems like something other than hospitalizing could be done... Just a thought. I'm sorry you are going through this...stay strong!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jkseawell* 
It seems like something other than hospitalizing could be done... Just a thought. I'm sorry you are going through this...stay strong!

I know - I just don't know WHAT. That's what's bugging me, I KNOW there's an answer somewhere - darned if I know where to find it though.







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## GISDiva (Jul 13, 2007)

I'll probably get flamed for this and PLEASE don't take it the wrong way, but as someone who had no choice but to use formula, it's not the end of the world if you have to supplement. I know how it feels to be stuck. If it comes to that, know that you did everything you knew how and that it certainly doesn't mean you love your little one any less.







OK, just had to get that out there.

Anyhoo - you probably already looked into this, but is there a way to make your milk any richer/fattier? More protein/fat in your diet, alfalfa supplements perhaps? If it's some other medical condition, then I hope the answer comes soon and your little one gets back on track.


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## treehuggermama (Jan 3, 2007)

I can empathize as ds1 didn't gain any weight until he was over 4 mos and was EBF until then. It is sooo hard. Hang in there Mama; know that you are doing the best job that you can. I hope you get some answers.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treehuggermama* 
I can empathize as ds1 didn't gain any weight until he was over 4 mos and was EBF until then. It is sooo hard. Hang in there Mama; know that you are doing the best job that you can. I hope you get some answers.


Any? Any chance you can elaborate? Actually, never mind...gunn'a shoot you a quick PM - hope ya don't mind.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I'm so sorry. I don't have any experience with this, so no advice from me, but I really hope she starts gaining soon.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Okay- now you break into crazy mom mode. Do you have a scale yet? If not- go out at 8am and rent one. Weigh before and after every feeding. Do you have a pump? If not - go rent one at 8 with the scale- a good one.

Now- record EVERYTHING.
Diapers- wet/dirty- how many- when.
Nursing sessions. How long. How much (weighing before and after)
puking- when and estimate volume.- heck if you can catch it in a prefold WEIGH it too (and weigh an identical prefold to subtract the weight)

Pump. Record how much you get. Try to supplement after nursing- finger feeding, cup feeding, dropper feeding, syringe feeding, sns/lactaid, even bottle if it works at this point.

Are you taking any supply enhancers? If you're not 110% sure she's taking in plenty- get some. Oatmeal, mother's milk tea, more milk tinctures, fenugreek, etc. If you think it might be supply related- research reglan and dom. Do you have anyone who would get you a prescription?

Spend as much of the day with her skin to skin as possible. Call in favors for people to watch the other kids.

Wake her at night to nurse. At least every 3 hours. I'd be tempted to do 2 unless she will sleep nurse.

What you need to figure out first (and so much better if you can do it at home rather than the hospital) is - is enough going in? Is she eating and not puking enough that she SHOULD be growing? Or is not enough going in? Or is plenty going in, but getting puked out? OR is she eating and keeping down what should be enough and not growing on it?

The more data-gathering you can do on your own, the easier finding the solution will be.










-Angela


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## prancie (Apr 18, 2007)

I think Angela is giving good advice. Don't feel like a breastfeeding failure, you don't yet know what is really going on.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Thanks...we're doing no more than 90 min. between nursing sessions - day and night. (And I feel it...)
I was told earlier today about a place to rent pumps, will check that out tomorrow for sure. Would have today but had another - unrelated - crisis. (Really not my day, today.)
Diapers plenty, IMO. Wet...a good dozen a day. She pees all the time. Poop averages once every other day but she pooped twice today, one full on blowout.
Good advice on the rest, thanks!
I know it's not supply. I, on one hand, think testing could be good...if I can take her in then take her home. Admitting her makes me shake, literally. I have 4 others here to tend to, how on earth could I be in the hospital? DH has NO, zero, vacation time till October.
Uggh...


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## amis2girls (Mar 2, 2005)




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## RoadWorkAhead (Sep 8, 2005)

FOr hospital, my guess would be they'd consider a pH probe (forewarning, those require zip, zero, NO nursing. PITB - its all apple juice for 24 hours) to see on reflux, maybe some sort of endoscopy, and possibly/probably a temp feeding tube (NG) to attempt control on feedings (plus constant monitoring like angela was thinking).

If you can stay out (Safely!), do! We went in for a 3-4 day stay to get DD's tube inserted and ended up trapped in hades for 10 days, only released as I didn't want her 1st birthday to be spent in hospital.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I'm sorry









Are you supplementing at the breast (using a SNS)?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kierdan'sMom* 
FOr hospital, my guess would be they'd consider a pH probe (forewarning, those require zip, zero, NO nursing. PITB - its all apple juice for 24 hours) to see on reflux, maybe some sort of endoscopy, and possibly/probably a temp feeding tube (NG) to attempt control on feedings (plus constant monitoring like angela was thinking).

If you can stay out (Safely!), do! We went in for a 3-4 day stay to get DD's tube inserted and ended up trapped in hades for 10 days, only released as I didn't want her 1st birthday to be spent in hospital.

Ohmahgawd!







Uggh. I am so sorry you had to go through that!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Megan~* 
I'm sorry









Are you supplementing at the breast (using a SNS)?

I am pumping and bottle feeding before and after nursings. (And during, she DOES.NOT. like the bottle and I need to nurse "along with" alot for her to tolerate it/trick her.)


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Get an sns or lactaid. Try cup feeding, syringe feeding or spoon feeding if she won't take the bottle. Try a different bottle. Ask an LC if the haberman might work for you.

did you find a scale?

good luck! Let us know how it goes.

-Angela


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

When DD had to start taking bottles of my breast milk when I went back to work when she was 7 weeks- a few weeks prior to that I bought a nuk passy and started giving it to her. It was the only passy she would tolerate- the reason I did this was because I knew she had not tolerated a bottle before but once she got used to it she was able to take a bottle that had the same nuk nipple.
I don't know if this will help- but perhaps it would get her used to sucking on a bottle. This wouldnt be a quick fix tho like you need








If your other children nursed well and gained weight then you know it's not your BM- what are some of the reason's they are thinking? Are they asking you to supplement with formula?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Have a scale en route, someone is letting me borrow thiers and is bringing it now. No luck finding a pump, but I will. I have a manual one, not fun, but in a pinch gets the job done. Slowly. *sigh*
I'm trying to avoid BUYING a good pump but will if I have to. Looking around a little more first.

Really noone has any ideas. She is taking plenty in. Plenty output. She does have reflux but the Zantac controlls it. (Doesn't eminimate it though, she still throws up more than I think is normal...but far LESS than before.)

Have a few things in mind to ask tomorrow. LLL leaders advise to check for tongue tie, DS2 had that.

I am holding out hope that this is a really weird "quirk" and she just improves. But that hope is fading...

Yes, formula would need to be seriously considered next. While trying to fix whatever nursing issues. She needs to grow NOW, we can fix other things along the way.

Tomorrow will tell. Testing is a good idea but hearing about what others have had to endure in the hospital, yikes.

I feel like she's fine. I really do. But the numbers absolutly warrent concern. I just don't know what to think.

Keeping a log, per Angela's suggestion.
So far, since midnight, we have:
50 minutes nursing. (Yes, that is NOT alot, but I am trying to get PUMPED milk into her so I can measure, and that 50 minutes does NOT include night nursing. The 50 min. is out of the 3 hours we have been up.) It is broken up into (1) 20 min. session, (1) 15 min. session, (1) 5 min. session, and (1) 10 min. session.
She has taken, by bottle so far, 9 1/2 oz. Broken up into (1) 2 1/2 oz., (1) 3 oz., (1) 1 oz., (1) 3 oz.
And have changed 3 wet diapers.
It's still early though.
That was 1:15 AM - 10:30 AM.

Again, the numbers look small but this is nearly nonstop feeding...she has only slept 30 min. (9-9:30)

Thoughts?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

It seems to me that that is a LOT going in. When you get the scale- start measuring puke too. Do you have a dozen or so prefolds that you can pre-weigh and use to catch puke?

If she's taking enough breastmilk in (that you can measure and document) that she SHOULD be growing, it makes no sense to me to switch the input to formula. Instead I would push to go straight to fortifiers to add to your milk to increase calories.

good luck!

-Angela


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

If puking/reflux is still a problem, talk to the ped about possibly putting rice cereal in EBM. That sometimes helps the milk stay down better. I know it isnt the greatest nutrition, but if it keeps the milk down, they may grow better. I used an SNS with EBM when ds wasn't growing/losing, but that was a different problem than you have. (severe jaundice/lethargy) It may help get some milk in faster to let you both rest. I know hour + long feedings really suck during the night, especially when you have to pump afterwards.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Thanks! Yes, adding cereal has been suggested. I did it twice, saw no difference. Just felt wrong doing that. If it helped, maybe...but it should have kept it down right away if it was gunn'a and I saw no difference.

Maybe worth mentioning I also have a nursing 2 yr. old. Ped. thinks she may be "stealing" all the milk but that is absolutly absurd, I won't even entertain it. I have oversupply if anything, PLENTY milk. So, why mention it? I dunno, maybe I'm crazy...







:
I have been trying to get Avery to nurse first sometimes to get Zoe to the hindmilk. He says make sure the baby nurses first...am I wrong? Ususally a non-issue as the 2 yr. old happily relinquishes for the babe.

When I say I nurse allllllllllll day I mean it darnit...









She just guzzled another 3 oz. bottle, so that can be added to the earlier. I'm going to nurse her and then I need at least 10 minutes to get up and walk around.

Whew...


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## 2goingon2 (Feb 8, 2007)

There is something called "thick-it" for babies with reflux issues. It's better than adding cereal, or so I've heard. I'm not sure if it's available otc or Rx only. My first son had horrible reflux complete with across the room type puking. I do hope you are able to find something out soon. Good luck.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

I don't think the 2 year old is "stealing" the milk. Lots of people nurse two kids. I nurse the baby and EP (about 40ish oz a day) for my almost 3 year old. Supply and demand works for most people. I think you would know if it was a supply problem.

I feel for you. You have me stumped as for how to fix this. I am hoping your baby has a decent weight gain. Has the ped talked to you about your options if there isn't a weight gain? A possible scope to check things out? If there are taking it in but not able to keep it down, I don't think having a different oral delivery method is going to help much. I hope you aren't going to be looking at a J-tube in the future or anything else drastic.


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## alllyssa (Sep 1, 2004)

Hi there,

I'm totally confused about why "breastfeeding isn't working". If quantity isn't your problem, the problem must be something with your baby, right? This doesn't mean breastfeeding has to stop, but that "they" need to figure out what's wrong with your baby.

I know "everyone" likes to blame breastfeeding for being the problem, but obviously if you have plenty of milk they need to start looking at another reason why your little one is losing weight.

Good luck and I hope everything ends up being ok,


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

It sounds like the Zantac isn't working as well as it should. It doesn't work for _a lot_ of babies, including my DS. Why not have the pedi give you prilosec instead? It works much, much better and unlike Zantac, isn't weight-sensitive.

Call the nearest hospital with a NICU and see if they have a http://www.medelabreastfeedingus.com...amatocrit-plus Creamatocrit to see how your breastmilk is doing. Another option is to see if you can get a hold of the hospital lab's centrifuge (can your doc write a prescription?) -- put your breastmilk in there and have it separate out the fat from your milk, so you can feed higher concentrations of fat to your LO. This won't help the reflux, but can help with weight gain.

BTW, I'm on the opposite side of this. My DS has bad reflux but since it's silent and he's gaining I'm told all is OK. He's 4 mos old and not a day goes by that he doesn't scream for 6hrs straight, often more. I finally started giving him 1/4 teaspoon of regular strength Mylanta to ease the pain of the acid and that does help. . so something to try if your LO is in pain.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2goingon2* 
There is something called "thick-it" for babies with reflux issues. It's better than adding cereal, or so I've heard. I'm not sure if it's available otc or Rx only. My first son had horrible reflux complete with across the room type puking. I do hope you are able to find something out soon. Good luck.

Thanks for the tip!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *GooeyRN* 
I don't think the 2 year old is "stealing" the milk. Lots of people nurse two kids. I nurse the baby and EP (about 40ish oz a day) for my almost 3 year old. Supply and demand works for most people. I think you would know if it was a supply problem.

I feel for you. You have me stumped as for how to fix this. I am hoping your baby has a decent weight gain. Has the ped talked to you about your options if there isn't a weight gain? A possible scope to check things out? If there are taking it in but not able to keep it down, I don't think having a different oral delivery method is going to help much. I hope you aren't going to be looking at a J-tube in the future or anything else drastic.









Nothing really specific yet.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *alllyssa* 
Hi there,

I'm totally confused about why "breastfeeding isn't working". If quantity isn't your problem, the problem must be something with your baby, right? This doesn't mean breastfeeding has to stop, but that "they" need to figure out what's wrong with your baby.

I know "everyone" likes to blame breastfeeding for being the problem, but obviously if you have plenty of milk they need to start looking at another reason why your little one is losing weight.

Good luck and I hope everything ends up being ok,

Yeah, I know...I was mostly just venting, ya know?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crazydiamond* 
It sounds like the Zantac isn't working as well as it should. It doesn't work for _a lot_ of babies, including my DS. Why not have the pedi give you prilosec instead? It works much, much better and unlike Zantac, isn't weight-sensitive.

Call the nearest hospital with a NICU and see if they have a http://www.medelabreastfeedingus.com...amatocrit-plus Creamatocrit to see how your breastmilk is doing. Another option is to see if you can get a hold of the hospital lab's centrifuge (can your doc write a prescription?) -- put your breastmilk in there and have it separate out the fat from your milk, so you can feed higher concentrations of fat to your LO. This won't help the reflux, but can help with weight gain.

BTW, I'm on the opposite side of this. My DS has bad reflux but since it's silent and he's gaining I'm told all is OK. He's 4 mos old and not a day goes by that he doesn't scream for 6hrs straight, often more. I finally started giving him 1/4 teaspoon of regular strength Mylanta to ease the pain of the acid and that does help. . so something to try if your LO is in pain.

Thanks, worth looking into. We had her on Prevacid, it did nothing...Zantac helps but not enough maybe. Will ask about other meds.


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## InchByInch (Aug 2, 2008)

Hugs to you, mama! This sounds like a stressful situation for sure.

A few questions--

What is your baby's current weight?
What was her birth weight?
What was her lowest weight after birth? How old was she then?
How much growth has she had in her length and head circumference?
Is she meeting developmental milestones?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Yes, she is meeting milestones. A bit ahead even! She's not alot over birthweight, unfortunately.

HOWEVER, I think we have made a breakthrough. Been weighing her. Getting good gains after she bottle feeds and so far ZILCH after nursing. So the issue is not my milk. Seems she is not effectively nursing. I am puzzled as she has a great latch, I had a friend (well, aquaintance) who is an RN and a midwife, she brought me the scale, she checked and can see nothing wrong with her latch. Milk pools around her mouth and you can hear her gulp and swallow, but if the scale shows no gain she has to not be taking in. Maybe it just looks like alot but really the intake is small. And then she's throwing it all up... It's the only thing that makes sense. I got the name of an LC from the hospital and left her a message.

This could be an easy solve. I never would suspect it though, I see no difference at all in how she nurses.

The other difference I have noted since Wed. (when we started bottlefeeding) is her diapers. Same number of diapers but the volume is far MORE. (Meaning there's LOTS more pee in every change and before she'd poop every other day...well today she pooped twice so far and yesterday twice also.)

At least it doesn't appear likely it's a medical problem, I can fix this. I am also ditching the bottles. If it's a nursing issues...bottles we don't need.

Thanks for all the advice, we'll see what her appt. tomorrow brings.


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## MommyJoia (Oct 31, 2007)

did you have a gastric bipass? we had a "failure to thrive" baby in the breastfeeding support group I attend, and it turned out that mom was making low fat milk due to her bipass. If you did have a gastric bipass and you don't want to post it to the world. PM me and I can put you in touch with my friend.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Yes, she is meeting milestones. A bit ahead even! She's not alot over birthweight, unfortunately.

HOWEVER, I think we have made a breakthrough. Been weighing her. Getting good gains after she bottle feeds and so far ZILCH after nursing. So the issue is not my milk. Seems she is not effectively nursing. I am puzzled as she has a great latch, I had a friend (well, aquaintance) who is an RN and a midwife, she brought me the scale, she checked and can see nothing wrong with her latch. Milk pools around her mouth and you can hear her gulp and swallow, but if the scale shows no gain she has to not be taking in. Maybe it just looks like alot but really the intake is small. And then she's throwing it all up... It's the only thing that makes sense. I got the name of an LC from the hospital and left her a message.

This could be an easy solve. I never would suspect it though, I see no difference at all in how she nurses.

The other difference I have noted since Wed. (when we started bottlefeeding) is her diapers. Same number of diapers but the volume is far MORE. (Meaning there's LOTS more pee in every change and before she'd poop every other day...well today she pooped twice so far and yesterday twice also.)

At least it doesn't appear likely it's a medical problem, I can fix this. I am also ditching the bottles. If it's a nursing issues...bottles we don't need.

Thanks for all the advice, we'll see what her appt. tomorrow brings.

I am glad she is gaining! See if you can get an SNS! That may help her to get the milk easier if it is a nursing issue. Gaining and heavier wets/dirties is great!!!


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## PatioGardener (Aug 11, 2007)

Glad to hear that you have made a breakthrough!! (And that milkis not the issue - awesome!)

Getting someone in the know to check for a tongue-tie (posterior is not obvious to the untrained eye) is a great idea.

If you are going to ditch the bottles, will you supplement at the breast until the nursing issue is worked out?

And the main reason I stopped back in to check this thread - good luck with the appointment. I'm thinking of you both and pulling for you.


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## PatioGardener (Aug 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommyJoia* 
did you have a gastric bipass? we had a "failure to thrive" baby in the breastfeeding support group I attend, and it turned out that mom was making low fat milk due to her bipass. If you did have a gastric bipass and you don't want to post it to the world. PM me and I can put you in touch with my friend.

Off topic, but I want to add in case any mom searches for gastric bipass in this thread in the future, as well as low fat, moms who have had gastric bipass are at risk for low B12 levels, which can cause grwoth and development issues in their breastfed babies. B12 shots fix the problem


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PatioGardener* 
Glad to hear that you have made a breakthrough!! (And that milkis not the issue - awesome!)

Getting someone in the know to check for a tongue-tie (posterior is not obvious to the untrained eye) is a great idea.

If you are going to ditch the bottles, will you supplement at the breast until the nursing issue is worked out?

And the main reason I stopped back in to check this thread - good luck with the appointment. I'm thinking of you both and pulling for you.

MarcyC has a baby with a posterior tongue tie. She may be able to help you out if you suspect that. She is really nice, she called me 7 months ago when I was about losing my mind with breastfeeding issues. (he could not transfer milk despite my massive oversupply) She was telling me that there are some kind of exercises to do with the tongue to help with the tie.


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## MommyJoia (Oct 31, 2007)

good luck







s:


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## morganeldi (Nov 9, 2007)

Here is another thought, and one why she may be doing well with the pumped milk.

Do you typically have "short" or longer nursing sessions? If they're typically short, or you switch breasts often, She may be getting a lot of foremilk, and if you are now pumping after nursing you may be pumping some of the fattier hindmilk out.

But, I'm sure you've explored that already.

((hugs))


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Thanks all!

Nope, never had a GB. And will definately look into tongue tie.

Getting a bit anxious to see what happens tomorrow, her appt. is 9AM.

Will update.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morganeldi* 
Here is another thought, and one why she may be doing well with the pumped milk.

Do you typically have "short" or longer nursing sessions? If they're typically short, or you switch breasts often, She may be getting a lot of foremilk, and if you are now pumping after nursing you may be pumping some of the fattier hindmilk out.

But, I'm sure you've explored that already.

((hugs))

Thanks! Typically very short nursing sessions, which also led me to believe she was very efficiant. Looks like I was wrong. But, I gott'a say - she always seemed satisfied after! I'll figure it all out. It's probably a few things combined. (Ineffective suck, reflux...maybe something else I'm not even thinking of...)


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## Spider (Jul 18, 2007)

walnuts make milk richer, try this too







good luck


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

I remember seeing an episode of "Mystery Diagnosis" about a baby who was slow to gain weight and lagged behind his twin (or younger brother?) in weight. Does anyone remember the details? I believe he was diagnosed with Cystinosis.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

You need a really good IBCLC and a good PT or SLP.
(PT= physical therapist, SLP= speech language pathologist)

As mentioned there are exercises and such that can help, but someone needs to take a look and see what part of her suck is not working right.

good luck!

-Angela


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

When my middle son was a baby, he didn't gain weight for months. It turned out he had multiple food allergies. As soon as I eliminated his allergens from my diet, he gained 6 lbs. in 2 months. Just a thought...


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## mama_daba (Dec 7, 2004)

does she nurse while asleep? my son would only have short nursing sessions at first but also nursed while asleep and was slow to gain so i had to get him to do long sessions while asleep. he was to distracted awake to nurse much.

i hope you figure stuff out soon


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Thanks all!









Some thoughts I had while nursing her in bed this AM...

1- I have noticed for a little while now that when she nurses TOTALLY flat (in bed) she doesn't spit up. At all. None. Cradle holding her isn't the same, she must be FLAT. Could she really NOT have reflux? Could there be a reason for this...thinking...
(Could also be why the meds. don't really help.)

2- Guess what else? When she nurses totally flat - she gains, every bit as much as when bottlefeeding! Scale only indicates no weight gain when she nurses away from the bed. So, perhaps there really IS nothing wrong with her suck.

Poor angle has odd issues, for sure - but I'll get 'em solved.







:

All stuff I will need to start looking into when we get home.

Thoughts?


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## PatioGardener (Aug 11, 2007)

Bending the body/flexing the hips increases the pressure in the abdomen, so it makes sense to me that she spits up less when she is flat. But I would think if reflux is an issue, it would be even better when she nurses completely upright ('standing'). Hmmmm... I will continue to think...






















and good luck for this morning!


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## RoadWorkAhead (Sep 8, 2005)

Sending good thoughts. Hope its something easy to fix!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

We're back!

HAS to be a transfering issue! Normal weight gain being 5-7 oz. per week...Zoe has gained 13 oz. in three days!!!!! So nothing wrong with my milk or her! She's not nursing right for some reason. But that is managable! Thank goodness! Thanks for all the advice/help!!









...feeling SO much better!


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Just read the entire thread and I kept praying I would read good news! Oh, I am soooooooo happy for you!!!! You received a lot of great advice and I am so glad to hear the great news! What a trooper you and your baby are! Congrats on the progress!!!!!!


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## DelawareMom (May 21, 2008)

Yay Marie and Zoe! Your kids are blessed to have a mom so dedicated to their health and well-being. Way to keep trying things until you figured it out!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

FABULOUS news. Get a journal. Write down everything you figure out or suspect. Put all the current info in there too. Everything written in one place will help you figure out the pieces faster.

You're doing a great job! Sounds like you're already working on figuring out the issue. You need the very best IBCLC in your area- do you have leads? You need someone experienced in working with unusual situations (possibly experience with kids with cleft issues or kids with Down Syndrome etc) There's *some* mechanical issue. An experienced eye will help you solve it faster.

good luck!

-Angela


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## PatioGardener (Aug 11, 2007)

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!

Yay for your breastmilk and yay your healthy baby and yay for it 'only' being a transfer issue. Of all the scenarios it could have been - this one you can work with! Plus, 13 oz in 3 days - holy smokes! Excellent to hear.

I second Angela's advice about finding the most experienced IBCLC in your area who has worked with transfer issues before.

Congratulations for your hard work so far and best of luck for continued growing success


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## GISDiva (Jul 13, 2007)

Yay! Sounds like things are starting to come together, I hope you get things worked out soon!!


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## Pandme (Jan 31, 2007)

So glad you are finding the answers! Please do continue updating.....this is an informative read and a textbook example of not giving up. Have you had tongue tie checked (you mentioned earlier something about it)?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Thanks!

No, I forgot all about asking about tongue tie.







I was so nervous when they were weighing her, then when I saw the number that's all I could think about, was too busy being happy, lol!









But will talk to a LC about it. I have some names and have left a message for one...probably won't really be able to connect with one till the weekend is over.

They want us back on the 12th for a follow up weigh in, which is a good idea, then we should be done going.


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## lirpasirhc (Oct 26, 2007)

i'm so happy for you! my dd has grown/ gained weight beautifully, but she spits up rivers during the day but not at night in bed. it's gotten to the point where she will almost only nurse side lying or in a sling/MT.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

Yay!







I'm so relieved you are starting to get it figured out.


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## Picturesque (May 31, 2007)

Just got through reading this thread. You've gotten some wonderful advice and I'm so glad that you've gotten some good news today. You are an inspiration. The only thing I can think of that hasn't been mentioned is that chiropractic adjustments can work wonders for babies with reflux. You may already be aware of this, but if not it's something to try.


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## mama_daba (Dec 7, 2004)

Yay!!!
so glad you are figuring stuff out and she is gaining weight!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Thanks! I'm the first to admit I have a bunch of crazy/irrational fears...but chiropractors terrify me!







:

Having a good day with her...I've eased up a bit, the last few days all I have concentrated on is shoving as much milk into her as possible, I forgot to really enjoy her.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
So - I have posted a few times about this. Don't really have the energy to rewrite it all. But Zoe (nearly 4 months) just is not gaining weight. No matter what I do, nothing is working. I am seriously starting to freak out. The Ped. I have been taking her to has been wonderful but I think this is the end of his patience. Last appt. - yesterday - her weight took a nose dive. She has to go in Satarday AM and if she's not improving he wants to hospitalize her.

So, yeah, any good vibes - greatly appreciated. But maybe admitting her is for the best, I need to know why she won't grow.

Blah.








:

You know, supplementing with formula is not the worst thing in the world. I had to, and my baby is still breastfeeding now at 19 months old! We still have a nursing relationship, she has still gotten lots of my milk and antibodies and all that good stuff, even if formula was the majority of her nutrition. I just don't understand why anyone would rather admit their child to the hospital than supplement with formula... because they are going to give her formula in the hospital anyways, you know? Why not avoid hospitalization if you can?








I hope you work everything out.
Here's a picture of my daughter nursing with the help of the lact-aid, for inspiration.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...actaid02-1.jpg


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Thanks! I'm the first to admit I have a bunch of crazy/irrational fears...but chiropractors terrify me!







:

Having a good day with her...I've eased up a bit, the last few days all I have concentrated on is shoving as much milk into her as possible, I forgot to really enjoy her.









sorry chiros scare you--but they really might be helpful here. i'm thinking if she's having trouble transferring milk in certain positions, a chiro or craniosacral therapist could help you work that out. also chiro is IMMENSELY helpful for many babies with reflux. i'm convinced mine would have been a reflux baby had we not taken her to a chiro. she had all the signs for the first 10 days, then after a couple adjustments she was no longer spitting up a lot or needing to be propped at an angle to sleep.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
You know, supplementing with formula is not the worst thing in the world. I had to, and my baby is still breastfeeding now at 19 months old! We still have a nursing relationship, she has still gotten lots of my milk and antibodies and all that good stuff, even if formula was the majority of her nutrition. I just don't understand why anyone would rather admit their child to the hospital than supplement with formula... because they are going to give her formula in the hospital anyways, you know? Why not avoid hospitalization if you can?








I hope you work everything out.
Here's a picture of my daughter nursing with the help of the lact-aid, for inspiration.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...actaid02-1.jpg

Hu?







:

You should have read the whole thread.

She has gained 13 oz. in the last 3 days on my milk. (Pumped.) It's a nursing issue, why would it make sense to formula feed?

She gained slowly, when it appeared she was losing I took her to a MD, we tried things first, I ended up pumping when those things failed. I've been talking to people who can help and doing what I need to in order to keep her fed now. Of course I wouldn't rather hospitalize her! But if she had something wrong with her it may have been a needed step. I am missing what I did wrong here...? It seems using my own pumped milk would be the logical next step before exploring formula, wouldn't you say? If it hadn't helped her I could have looked at if formula would be warrented. Baby steps are usually best, silly to jump the gun and buy out the formula isle when she has my BM available. Feeding formula makes no sense.
And I agree, "why not avoid hospitalazation?" I did!







And likely lots of Dr. visits by keeping her on the food she needs and is best for her.
Please don't imply I did something neglectful or wrong.


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## katie9143 (Oct 3, 2006)

i just read through this thread marie and am soooo happy you seem to have this figured out!! that would be my worst nightmare - kudos to you for giving it the time to really figure it out rather than using formula or resorting to the hospitalization.


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## Pandme (Jan 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Hu?







:

You should have read the whole thread.

She has gained 13 oz. in the last 3 days on my milk. (Pumped.) It's a nursing issue, why would it make sense to formula feed?

She gained slowly, when it appeared she was losing I took her to a MD, we tried things first, I ended up pumping when those things failed. I've been talking to people who can help and doing what I need to in order to keep her fed now. Of course I wouldn't rather hospitalize her! But if she had something wrong with her it may have been a needed step. I am missing what I did wrong here...? It seems using my own pumped milk would be the logical next step before exploring formula, wouldn't you say? If it hadn't helped her I could have looked at if formula would be warrented. Baby steps are usually best, silly to jump the gun and buy out the formula isle when she has my BM available. Feeding formula makes no sense.
And I agree, "why not avoid hospitalazation?" I did!







And likely lots of Dr. visits by keeping her on the food she needs and is best for her.
Please don't imply I did something neglectful or wrong.

You certainly did everything right. It definitely appeared that from the issues you described, the milk wasn't the issue. And if that's the case, why introduce formula into the mix when there is plenty of breastmilk?

I'd like to second the idea of a chiropractor. They used to scare me, but not anymore!I had my son adjusted a few days after birth. A chiro adjustment on a baby is very different from the ones on adults...it's more like gentle feeling. It did WONDERS for me during my pregnancy and I think it helped my son when he was an infant...ie. we never really had colic or any horribly fussy times. I mean, he cried and stuff (he's was a baby after all!) but it was definitely not as bad as I thought it would be.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

I am really glad things are improving!!! I think you did the right thing in pumping and bottle feeding before running for formula. As long as you can pump well, why not use your own healthier milk first? I am glad she is taking in enough while side lying. It may not always be convenient, but it sure beats alternatives! I think it is a great way to continue nursing while working on the positioning issues she may have. I assume you already explored this, but did you have the LC check your positioning while nursing in a cradle hold? Some babies can't get enough milk if they aren't aligned up just perfect. (was one of my ds's issues) Keep up the great work!


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## PatioGardener (Aug 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GooeyRN* 
I assume you already explored this, but did you have the LC check your positioning while nursing in a cradle hold? Some babies can't get enough milk if they aren't aligned up just perfect. (was one of my ds's issues) Keep up the great work!

oooooh - good point! The head extention needed for babies to swallow is so much more crucial to some little ones than others. Sometimes having them shifted 'down' umm, so that they really have to extend the neck up to latch on and drink help with tongue positioning.

I'm so happy to hear she's gaining







:


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

Marie. I hope you are able to figure out why she can't xfer milk. Feel free to PM me if I can help.


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## heggie (May 15, 2007)

Glad you got it sorted out! If you (or anyone else searching this thread) ever do need to supplement, we used a cup for DS from birth (sleepy baby, crappy latch). Your LC or the OB department at a local hospital should be able to hook you up. The "cup" is a two-chambered silicon soft cup that holds a couple of ounces. The baby can 'lap' the milk out of it, and it doesn't cause nipple confusion. It is a really good option for newborns who can't get the hang of nursing right off and are losing weight.

Hugs to you mama!


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Thanks! I'm the first to admit I have a bunch of crazy/irrational fears...but chiropractors terrify me!







:

I am also uncomfortable with traditional chiropractic methods; especially on an infant. My chiro uses an "activator" which means no hands on manipulation and is much gentler than traditional forms. It's not scary at all, even for an infant. My DD had a few activator treatments after her posterior birth. Here's the activator web page so you can see the tool they use http://www.activator.com/ and you can search for a trained activator chiro in your area using the web site.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TechnoGranola* 
I am also uncomfortable with traditional chiropractic methods; especially on an infant. My chiro uses an "activator" which means no hands on manipulation and is much gentler than traditional forms. It's not scary at all, even for an infant. My DD had a few activator treatments after her posterior birth. Here's the activator web page so you can see the tool they use http://www.activator.com/ and you can search for a trained activator chiro in your area using the web site.

My chiro uses this on DS also. She calls it the "clicker". It's very gentle, I agree, and I'm not hesitant to recommend this form of treatment to others.


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

Just read the whole thread and so happy to hear the baby is gaining so well now!







: Wonderful detective work mama, hope to hear the transfer issue resolved soon too.


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## lactivist (Jun 14, 2005)

Marie,
I just came across this thread. I am so sorry it has been rough. I am really glad to hear that you are figuring things out. I saw that you said chiropractors scare you. Maybe a cranial sacral therapist instead? My son was not gaining and was hurting me and the only thing that helped (besides putting milk in him another way besides nursing) was getting cranial sacral therapy. It is very gentle and works really quickly although sometimes takes repeated visits to keep it up. My son had a mild torticollis which was making it really hard for him to latch correctly and transfer milk. CST worked really well. http://www.upledger.com has a list of practitioners by area.

I just thought I would mention what worked for us in a similar situation.

Wendi


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

CSTs are generally massage therapists, therapists, acupuncturists, etc. Osteopaths who are trained in osteopathy or osteopathic manipulation are another option as well.


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## ladonnaken (Jan 1, 2007)

Another late thread-reader here--wow, woman, you ROCK! What an unusual situation--fascinating! Kudos for all the hard work and determination







and congrats on the gaining







:


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Hey, another vote for chiropractor. I PROMISE you won't regret it!!! Relax. Really.

Glad she's gotten better and you're figuring things out.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

How is it going?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GooeyRN* 
How is it going?

Well, she's 5 months old now. Lots of back and forth but basically, she won't suck anymore - breast or bottle. First she resisted the bottle, would only nurse but since I had to measure input I forced her to bottle feed. Soon she refused the breast and I had to pump all the time and bottle feed. Now she won't take the bottle either. She just won't suck, it's bizarre. I have 2 LLL leaders and 2 LCs and a pretty terrific Ped. stumped.







She is just so quirky about this. So I am feeding her expressed milk via dropper and cup, which she takes quite well. (The cup I mean.) Also I spoonfeed her purees, since 4 months. (Too soon, I know I know, but this is an unusual situation and it is keeping her alive.) She LOVES solids and eats a ton. Which, sadly in a way but good overall, is great news. She is meeting all milestones, actually she exceeds them. She is sitting up, belly laughing, rolling all over - and developing chubby rolls!!







She is a super happy, amazing, lovable little angel. Her eating/feeding is not ideal but all I can do is the best I can. I dunno how long I can keep her on BM like this but if we can make it to a yr. I will feel like I did ok. I am just so happy to see her growing after her weight loss and being so scared.

Thanks all!


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

Oh gosh, that has to be difficult to have to cup feed all the time. I would have started solids early, too. Dont feel bad, the goal is to feed the baby, and you are doing that. You are awesome for EPing for her.







I am glad she is healthy and developing well! You are doing a great job!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GooeyRN* 
Oh gosh, that has to be difficult to have to cup feed all the time. I would have started solids early, too. Dont feel bad, the goal is to feed the baby, and you are doing that. You are awesome for EPing for her.







I am glad she is healthy and developing well! You are doing a great job!

Thanks.









I haven't been here too much lately, feeding her is a full time job and then some, plus it was terribly depressing for a while. I wish I knew WHY, but I never will so I'm just doing what I can. It's just so weird to have a 5 month old who won't nurse (it's been nearly a week since she last latched on) and a 2 yr. old who nurses around the clock. I would do anything to get her back on the boob but I don't see it happening.







Solids was a blessing and a curse, as was the bottle. She HAD to eat and I HAD to feed her - so I needed them...but it was the solids that made her stop sucking, I know it was. And the bottle that helped her gain also caused her to stop nursing. Every "good" thing I do has other disasterous consequences it seems







: I just hope she doesn't feel any rejection on my part. I am so sorry it all went down this way...I didn't/don't know what else to do.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

I don't think you did anything at all wrong.







She needed to eat to gain. That was what was most important at the time. I am sorry for you that things turned out like this for you. I don't know if she would go for it, but can you try a sippy cup without the valve in it? It may make cup feeding a bit easier/less messy for you. She would not have to suck, just tip it. I was pretty devastated when my dd would not nurse, but she took a bottle without issue.







EPing AND cup feeding must be so difficult for you. I am so sorry things turned out like this for you.


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GooeyRN* 
I don't think you did anything at all wrong.







She needed to eat to gain. That was what was most important at the time. I am sorry for you that things turned out like this for you. I don't know if she would go for it, but can you try a sippy cup without the valve in it? It may make cup feeding a bit easier/less messy for you. She would not have to suck, just tip it.









That sounds like it's been hard. You are doing a great job feeding that baby, and I'm sure deep down inside your LO knows how hard you are trying for her.







I can't add enough of these.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Thanks.









This is working cuz of her not me, to be sure. She is very easy going. And happy. Very happy.







She is always joyful - if she were upset or fussy about all this I am not sure I'd have it in me. She just seems happy to be around us, taking it all in & not bothering about much. (Just demands clean diapers, lol, she WILL let you know...







) She's a trooper, the credit goes to her.

And yeah, using an open valve cup. Otherwise she'd take nothing in. *sigh*


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