# Breech birth laws? Illegal??



## mamakaryn08 (Jan 12, 2009)

Someone recently said to me that breech vaginal birth is illegal in almost every state.... I know that in some places it is illegal for a midwife to deliver a breech baby at home, but are there any laws that state that breech delivery in general is illegal?? I have never heard this before and I'd like to point her to a link or something if there is one. I've been on google for the past half hour searching different combinations of words relating to breech birth laws and haven't found anything I could point her to... Thanks!


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## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

The state doesn't have the power to regulate which way a baby is facing, nor does it have the power to regulate where you give birth. Think about it - if labor was precipitous, and you wound up delivering a breech baby on the side of the highway, what could anyone do? Not arrest you.

Some breech presentations can be dangerous, and many hcp's feel c-section is a safer option that vaginal delivery in those cases. Many hospitals have policies that forbid practitioners from knowingly carrying on with breech vaginal deliveries rather than performing a c-section. But breech delivery is not against the law.


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## MsBlack (Apr 10, 2007)

What is true is that in most every state....really, in most every hospital, and among most OBs... vaginal breech birth is not done, it is 'against policy', but it's certainly not 'illegal'.

Unfortunately, too many people hear that doctors are 'against' something--like vag breech birth, or VBAC--and they *assume* that means it is actually 'against the law'. That is because doctors have managed to get themselves such a potent and well-entrenched place in our legal/political system, and within our minds. To some people, in other words, when doctors are against something, it is the same to those people as being illegal!

I agree with pp, in some states it is illegal for mws to attend vag breech AT HOME. Nowhere is it actually illegal for vag breech to happen anywhere.

I hear the craziest things along these lines all the time....sad, sad, infuriating, disgusting. It's just a measure of how, after more than a century of effort and billions of $$ spent on advertising and lobbying by now, the AMA has gouged a place in our consciousness.


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## womenswisdom (Jan 5, 2008)

Um, no. The government (so far) does not have the power to make that decision for women.


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## pagodafish (Mar 22, 2009)

Silly, uneducated and sad statement.

What IS true, is that these days you would have a hard time finding someone who was experienced/comfortable doing a breech vaginal delivery. Sadly, the culture of birth in America has led us to belive that breech births are dangerous or abnormal. They are neither- if handled properly. The problem is that because of the stigma, very few birth professionals have been taught (or have ever seen) how to handle a breech birth properly. The practice will likely disappear over the next generation or two (in hospitals). What's really scary? Vaginal birth in general may be headed this way too...

I know FOR SURE it is not illegal in UT to perform a vaginal breech birth. However, I only know of one OB who is willing/capable of performing the procedure in a hospital. So, there: 1 down, 49 more to go!

People love to say something is "illegal" when they don't have enough education to discuss the topic properly


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

This is the same as when people say "Homebirthing is illegal!". Which of course it's not. It just may be illegal for a midwife to attend a homebirth, which isn't the same as saying a woman birthing at home is against the law.


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## lunarlady (Jan 4, 2010)

That sort of made me smile. Breech birth illegal. Can you imagine the jury sitting at that trial? "Mam, did you knowingly push this baby out feet first?" Ha! Or maybe the child gets the charge? Willfully entering feet first?

However, what I think you will find is many OB's do not have medical malpractice coverage that allows them to knowingly do breech vaginal birth. So while it would not be illegal for them to do it, it would be a violation of the medical malpractice coverage and therefore cost them their job if they did. In their minds, this might make it illegal.

There are laws in my state (CO) agianst a homebirth midwife knowingly attending a breech birth. The key there is KNOWINGLY. If it is a "whoops, baby came out feet first! What a surprise!" situation, then everybody is covered. Even there, though, it can be hard to find a MW who is comfortable doing breech vaginal.

I read a great story when I was pregnant last, can't remember where it was, but it was about a women who went into labor in a rural area during a snowstorm. The only person the family could find to help was a rancher who lived nearby. The baby was breech, and came out feet first. Afterward, the husband said to him. "Thank you so much for your help! I was so scared when I saw the feet, but you were so calm!" The rancher replied "They always come that way, don't they?" He had only delivered calves, and they always come feet first. Head first would have been scary to him!







So it's all about world view, isn't it?


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Great post, Ms. Black!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pagodafish* 
The problem is that because of the stigma, very few birth professionals have been taught (or have ever seen) how to handle a breech birth properly. The practice will likely disappear over the next generation or two (in hospitals). What's really scary? Vaginal birth in general may be headed this way too...










Yes, I've often heard many L&D nurses & even OBs have never seen a woman vaginally birth without an epidural, upright, hands & knees, etc.







It's considered something of a spectacle!

In Maryland, this is yet another reason some of us are glad that CPMs (direct-entry midwives) are illegal. They practice anyway, which means they have no restrictions on their practice! So around Baltimore, HB with a CPM is the only way you're going to have a vaginal breech birth. BUT - they are good & have experience at it!

ironically, there was a just a news story out recently stating that CS may not always be best for breech!


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## Gena 22 (Jul 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
Great post, Ms. Black!

In Maryland, this is yet another reason some of us are glad that CPMs (direct-entry midwives) are illegal. They practice anyway, which means they have no restrictions on their practice! So around Baltimore, HB with a CPM is the only way you're going to have a vaginal breech birth. BUT - they are good & have experience at it!

I'm in DC but had a MD CPM for my twin HB, and was happy about her legal status for just that reason!


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## MiaMama (Jul 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunarlady* 
That sort of made me smile. Breech birth illegal. Can you imagine the jury sitting at that trial? "Mam, did you knowingly push this baby out feet first?" Ha! *Or maybe the child gets the charge? Willfully entering feet first?*










This is hilarious!


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## GoldmanBaby09 (Apr 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunarlady* 
I read a great story when I was pregnant last, can't remember where it was, but it was about a women who went into labor in a rural area during a snowstorm. The only person the family could find to help was a rancher who lived nearby. The baby was breech, and came out feet first. Afterward, the husband said to him. "Thank you so much for your help! I was so scared when I saw the feet, but you were so calm!" The rancher replied "They always come that way, don't they?" He had only delivered calves, and they always come feet first. Head first would have been scary to him!







So it's all about world view, isn't it?

This totally cracked me up! I have to say, I would probably UC before I went and got some rancher to be at my birth!


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

DD1 was breech for a very long time, but finally turned. DH and I had decided that if she didn't turn, we would travel to Florida, so my 80 year old Uncle, a retired Family Practice Doc, could deliver her if she didn't turn. He delivered quite a few breech babies in his day--and didn't think it a big deal. My OB had never delivered one vaginally.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

People tend not to know the difference between "illegal" and "not recommended" sometimes.







I've heard that not following the CDC vax schedule is illegal, too. lol


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## vesper0 (Jun 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsBlack* 
What is true is that in most every state....really, in most every hospital, and among most OBs... vaginal breech birth is not done, it is 'against policy', but it's certainly not 'illegal'.

Unfortunately, too many people hear that doctors are 'against' something--like vag breech birth, or VBAC--and they *assume* that means it is actually 'against the law'. That is because doctors have managed to get themselves such a potent and well-entrenched place in our legal/political system, and within our minds. To some people, in other words, when doctors are against something, it is the same to those people as being illegal!

I agree with pp, in some states it is illegal for mws to attend vag breech AT HOME. Nowhere is it actually illegal for vag breech to happen anywhere.

I hear the craziest things along these lines all the time....sad, sad, infuriating, disgusting. It's just a measure of how, after more than a century of effort and billions of $$ spent on advertising and lobbying by now, the AMA has gouged a place in our consciousness.

Nodding my head in agreement to this, after having had two breech babies UC. Well said Ms. Black. One of those babies is a baby and the other is a teen, so things haven't deviated from the above in the meantime.


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunarlady* 

I read a great story when I was pregnant last, can't remember where it was, but it was about a women who went into labor in a rural area during a snowstorm. The only person the family could find to help was a rancher who lived nearby. The baby was breech, and came out feet first. Afterward, the husband said to him. "Thank you so much for your help! I was so scared when I saw the feet, but you were so calm!" The rancher replied "They always come that way, don't they?" He had only delivered calves, and they always come feet first. Head first would have been scary to him!







*So it's all about world view, isn't it?*

that is true for SO MAY situations!!!! great and cute story!


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## secondimpression (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
In Maryland, this is yet another reason some of us are glad that CPMs (direct-entry midwives) are illegal. They practice anyway, which means they have no restrictions on their practice! So around Baltimore, HB with a CPM is the only way you're going to have a vaginal breech birth. BUT - they are good & have experience at it!

Since when is a CNM attending a known breech illegal in Maryland? As of a few days ago when I spoke with my homebirth CNM, there were no complications that would legally require her to transfer my care.


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

She said CPM, not CNM.


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## secondimpression (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
She said CPM, not CNM.

I know what she said, I think you missed the point though. Her post strongly implies that for CNM's, there are legal restrictions on the kinds of births they can attend, thus why she is glad CPM's are illegal.


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunarlady* 
I read a great story when I was pregnant last, can't remember where it was, but it was about a women who went into labor in a rural area during a snowstorm. The only person the family could find to help was a rancher who lived nearby. The baby was breech, and came out feet first. Afterward, the husband said to him. "Thank you so much for your help! I was so scared when I saw the feet, but you were so calm!" The rancher replied "They always come that way, don't they?" He had only delivered calves, and they always come feet first. Head first would have been scary to him!







So it's all about world view, isn't it?

Ok, this is terrific! Made me chuckle. And yes, calves are always born front feet first, with their noses between their knees and their pasterns, btdt many times. I would totally take an old rancher or farmer for my birth attendant if no one else was available (or over a Dr. even, if I was going to be pressured to stuff I didn't want) because they tend to take stuff in stride and not get stressed about it.

Thankfully, here in MI, breech birth isn't illegal, although it is hard to find a hcp willing to attend one, simply because of the liability and training (or lack thereof) issues. My MW is experienced with breech births, and has no problem attending one.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

How could a baby coming out of a woman's vagina be outlawed?

Babies come out. You can't stop them.


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## GOPLawyer (Mar 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *umsami* 
DD1 was breech for a very long time, but finally turned. DH and I had decided that if she didn't turn, we would travel to Florida, so my 80 year old Uncle, a retired Family Practice Doc, could deliver her if she didn't turn. He delivered quite a few breech babies in his day--and didn't think it a big deal. My OB had never delivered one vaginally.

I wish we could multiply your Uncle!

LOVED the story about the rancher!


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GOPLawyer* 
I wish we could multiply your Uncle!

LOVED the story about the rancher!

I know. It's sad that the knowledge is basically dying out. So many OB residents never see anything other than a c-section for breech births.







Back in the first few decades of his practice, I think the c-section rate was something like less than 5%. Of course back then, residents were called residents because they lived in dorms on hospital grounds. Totally different approach to medical education these days.

I loved the rancher story too! Priceless!


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)




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## tatemike (Feb 26, 2016)

*pagodafish, who is that Utah OB that does breech births?*

pagodafish, who is that Utah OB that does breech births?

I tried to write you a private message but can't because I need to have 15 posts under my belt before doing so. Wife is 36 weeks along (Davis County area) so asap answer would be great (version have to occur in a week). She's doing Webster technique, moxa, etc... had success in flipping, but baby flipped back.

She read else where that Dr. Silver at the U of Utah may do it. I don't have an internet source for that.

I've seen that Dr. Parker may sometimes do it (not sure which city). I tried to link to that information but can't due again to low post count. But a phrase to google works just as well as a URL -- so try googling the blog article by searching: "A Peaceful Surgical Birth of a Breech Baby after switching providers at 38 1/2 weeks"

That's all of the names I have so far... hopefully this will help other Utahn parents in the future.


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