# The eroticization of children.



## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Did I spell that right? And is it even a word?









Anyway, in today's New York Times:

"Middle School Girls Gone Wild."

" ... I'm sure that many parents see these routines as healthy fun, an exercise in self-esteem harmlessly heightened by glitter makeup and teeny skirts. Our girls are bratz, not slutz, they would argue, comfortable in the existence of a distinction. But my parental brain rebels ... "

Ignore his final thought about boys, that's another issue.







What he says about what is seemingly acceptable for girls ... is sadly right on.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Yeah, I see young girls at the mall.. 10 year olds.. dressed like they're in music videos. So awful. I wonder what their mothers are thinking.. and then I see the mothers, dressed in exactly the same clothes.

I don't know what to do, except create an alternative culture so that my son sees alternative images. At least then he has choices. We are careful what media we let in the house, we send ds to a school that shares our values, we live in a community where there are a lot of alternative images.. and as he gets older we will discuss these things. I think I'd handle it the same way with a girl. Though with a girl, you'd have the dilemma of what to do when she starts wanting to wear that stuff. Ugh.

And no, I don't buy that last line about boys at all. Though the issue with boys isn't objectification like it is with girls.


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## vermonttaylors (May 17, 2005)

To much food for thought. (My blood stream hasn;t absorbed it's caffeine yet







)

I SERIOUSLY worry about the effects of pop culture on my children's delicate psyches. We are in the lucky position of being able to afford alternative education, but not really having access to very many options. It's one of the reasons we want to homeschool. At least for the beginning years. We are hoping that a good alternative school, or homeschooling, will help develop our kid's sense of self to the point where they will be able to see pop culture for what it is. I can dream right?









What I am really interested in hearing is how you wise mamas who have pre-teens in public school handle the effects of the media amd marketing on your kids. I am certain that if there are parents out there who can navigate these choppy waters, they are MDC mamas







: and I want to hear how you do it, because our little public school is very sweet and I don't want to eliminate it as an option. Ya know?


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## Mamma Christi (Dec 15, 2006)

Things like this have been really upsetting to me. I see my 13 year old cousin dressing like well...a "hoochie"...and it just bothers me. She is 13, and wears skirts up to her hoo-ha, and shirts that show her [lack of] cleavage. Then is covered in glitter and makeup. THIRTEEN. I just can't let it go, when I was 13 (which wasn't even really all that long ago - I'll be 21 next month) I never dressed like that. I think the media is really hitting an all time low and our children are there to suck it all in







:


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## kewb (May 13, 2005)

So disturbing. I don't get the prostitot look at all. I don't wear clothes like that, why would I want my child to dress like that? My dd is 6 and very tall for her age. It is so difficult to find modest clothes that suit her age that are not just plain long sleeve t-shirts. And bathing suits, well thank goodness for Lands End full coverage tankini.

Sadly, I have friends who allow their dd's do exactly what these girls did in their talent show. When my friends dd was 8 she was enamored with Bratz, had her whole room decorated with Bratz stuff. Her mother would complain about all the stuff. I pointed out that she did not have to buy all the stuff. I was corrected and told that I will see when my dd is older. *sigh*

My dh and I are doing all we can to instill a sense of self in our children. The ability to be okay with who they are that will help them charter the waters of adolescence.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Ick. It's so sad.

Sadder still is that if I take my 3.5 yo to a kiddie playground, he's seeing that stuff already, in girls not much older than him!







: 7 year olds in glued-on jeans and fully made-up.







:


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

All the young girls in our neighborhood dress like that too (though, more "slutz" than "bratz", unfortunately. I can't figure out what their parents are thinking, or if they're thinking at all. Even the pre-adolescents do this, and they "hang out" with much older kids. I can't help but think they are at risk.
My sister had a friend who gave up taxi-driving because he just couldn't stomach the weekends, with very young girls dressed very sexy, with older guys, heading for clubs and parties.


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kewb* 
Sadly, I have friends who allow their dd's do exactly what these girls did in their talent show. When my friends dd was 8 she was enamored with Bratz, had her whole room decorated with Bratz stuff. Her mother would complain about all the stuff. I pointed out that she did not have to buy all the stuff. I was corrected and told that I will see when my dd is older. *sigh*

I think that's where my AP sensibilities end. My parents wouldn't let me dress like a slut, even if I had wanted to why should things be different for my dd? Or maybe I should say my parents wouldn't buy me Calvin Klein jeans in 8th grade no reason why I can't do the same to my dd. My job is to be a parent not the best friend who lets my dd do what she wants and spend all of my money.

Frankly I keep hoping somehow nuns habits will become all the rage when dd hits 10. I have problems even finding stuff that's not "sassy" for my 3 year old sometimes. I really hate the objectification of girls. Over in Childhood Years we've been discussion a princess article from the NY Times. To me, this is where it starts.

And you're right Merpk, even though I don't have a boy, I can see his comment was way off the mark.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

My best friend has a son the same age as mine (5) and a 7 year old daughter and this has all ready become an issue for her. She is (using her words) "putting her foot down" and not allowing bratz and the like nor the clothing associated w/ bratz/Britney etc. While her daughter considers herself a "tomboy" she so desperately wants a bratz doll becasue everyone else has them. My friend and her daughter have a great relationship and really can and do talk, the marketing is so pervasive she constantly feels the struggle. The power of peer pressure is hard to buck against when you are the only one bucking, kwim?

And where do you draw the line? Her house is a safe haven against the eroticism of girls but what do you do when your daughter is invited to a bratz themed b-day party by her best friend? When another one has a "spa" party w/ full makeovers, mani/pedis, facials and massages? And yet another's father hires a limo (







) to go and see the Cheetah girls? She is feeling the stress of always saying no.

I have no advice for her but just try to keep supporting what she is doing but I know it is so hard and such a slippery slope. He daughter actually asked why she was allowed to wear a tankini at the beach but not allowed to wear shirts that showed her belly.







:


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## kymholly (Jul 18, 2004)

Quote:

What surprised me, though, was how completely parents of even younger girls seem to have gotten in step with society's march toward eroticized adolescence - either willingly or through abject surrender. And if parents give up, what can a school do? A teacher at the middle school later told me she had stopped chaperoning dances because she was put off by the boy-girl pelvic thrusting and had no way to stop it - the children wouldn't listen to her and she had no authority to send anyone home. She guessed that if the school had tried to ban the sexy talent-show routines, parents would have been the first to complain, having shelled out for costumes and private dance lessons for their Little Miss Sunshines.
This is the saddest & most true commentary on our society. It is completely mind-boggling that so many adults don't see anything wrong with this. And yet, if you breastfeed your infant in public...


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

I can't see the whole article and Bug Me Not is banned from my work computer. Can someone please PM me the article?


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Dh and I have already talked about toys we don't agree with. His sister is still pissed that her mother never bought her a Barbie. So dh says allowances are for buying toys we don't agree with. Unless we're talking about dangerous toys. I always worry if you forbid things completely that it just makes them more interesting. Dh and his sister were both forbidden TV for the most part growing up both of them watch more TV than I ever have.

But then I also believe that you should have enough confidence in your parenting skills that even if your child buys Bratz dolls with her allowance for a year, she'll eventually realize she's more than a sex object. Just you as a parent have to grit your teeth and be patient sometimes.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

That's why I buy my dd boys' cut jeans (they cover more of her body and are more comfortable!) and I buy all of her shirts on-line from Cabellas, Land's End, and LLBean. I can't find her any shirts in the mall.


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## Individuation (Jul 24, 2006)

I have a total ban on Bratz dolls and any clothing I deem "too grown-up." My daughter is 8. I'm willing to have the fights about hoochie clothes when she's 14, but I refuse to even entertain the thought now.

(I also only allow "clothing with words" in the house on a case-by-case basis, giving me the opportunity to explain why "New York City Ballet" is OK on a T shirt, but "I Love Daddy's Credit Card" is not.)

ETA: Our other "total ban" is Limited Too. Have you been in there recently? Ick.


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vermonttaylors* 
What I am really interested in hearing is how you wise mamas who have pre-teens in public school handle the effects of the media amd marketing on your kids. I am certain that if there are parents out there who can navigate these choppy waters, they are MDC mamas







: and I want to hear how you do it, because our little public school is very sweet and I don't want to eliminate it as an option. Ya know?

My DS is 9 and once told my cousin the meaning of this rap song he heard through kids at his public school. Where did he get it from? A boy who heard the translation from a girl (they were in the 2nd grade). The translation was about a woman performing oral sex on a man.







: PISSED ME OFF!!! We don't watch videos, we don't listen to much rap/r&b, and we spend and have spent Tons of time doing constructive cultural things. So, my DS' idea of what is entertainment was already formed prior to being exposed to trash as I call it by third persons or even in the barber shop when he gets his hair cut or by his dad or paternal grandmother. Obviously we're not together. I used to freak out and get really pissed off about stuff and worry about his exposure and how it will change him, etc. etc. However, I believe that up til 12 parents have more influence on their kids and 12+ is when other kids influence kids more. My DS isn't perfect, but he still has a certain amount of innocence in his character that is challenging for him since he attends public school with overexposed children. He recognizes what is inappropriate - music, tv, conversations and will frequently speak up and say that it is inappropriate to me or to his peers. It doesn't earn him brownie points with them though - so my goal this year has been to continue to encourage him to be confident in who he is and not feel compelled to follow the crowd. I think that I've done a pretty good job too - he had a little "girlfriend" (which i don't condone but if he volunteers info I have to calmly respond) and I asked him why he liked her. He said she likes jazz music, r&b, classical music, is a violinist and likes to dance. My son likes the same things but plays the clarinet. So, I felt good about the reasons he gave - not so superficial for a 9 yr. old.

Whenever there is a song or something that he's learned through kids that he wants to sing, I will listen to it on the radio alone and explain why he can't listen to it - if it is demeaning to women, I ask him to think about how he would feel about his mom or cousin or potential baby sister being talked to or treated that way. For example, there is a song, "shake your money maker" - he likes the beat didn't know what the words meant - I explained to him what it means and asked if he wanted me to shake my money maker.







He said no and I told him it was just disrespectful music. He's really overprotective (so much so that he asked if any of the midwives are men b/c he wants to know who will be in the room with me when I have the baby), so I use that part of his personality to help him develop an internal control that will drive his decisions about what is acceptable behavior and what isn't when it comes to his interactions with females.

I attended a talent show when DS was in teh 2nd grade - he played the AFrican drums. There were 2 acts that distrubed me - one was with 2 little girls in an elementary school dancing inappropriately to a song that was not for kids. I felt so uncomfortable, I was having a physical reaction to it and kept wondering what all the parents were thinking. Unfortunately, so many parents think it is out of their hands - no child is buying their own clothes at 12 years old! And if they are - that is a problem. My friend does not allow her daughter to watch videos and she doesn't get to read the teen magazines. She wears gap and old navy clothes that are tasteful and "preppy" and wears little girl hairstyles, she takes her to plays and listens to neo-soul music. As a result, her daughter is still like a little girl and she attends a public school.

One last thing in this rambling post...My niece is in the 1st grade and apparently was in a conversation with a little girl whose mom is kind of hoochie-ish about being popular. The little girl said she was popular or girls are popular b/c of wearing short skirts. My niece responded that she is popular because she drinks soy milk and her mom has a brown purse.








Obviously, the level of trash exposure to my niece is really limited and she is surrounded by positive images and involved in positive activities since her comeback was so corny and innocent.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I have a 13 year old, so a "middle-schooler". We're currently trying to find a dress for her to wear to my dad's wedding. It needs to be fairly dressy (not like a formal, but pretty nice), not white, and not "hoochie". We're also trying to for not-black, because it is traditionally considered verboten for weddings, although I hear that rule is changing so we may go with black, because 80% of the dresses we've found are black. We've been to at least a dozen stores, and have come up with squat, except for some dresses that look like something a 50-year old would wear. I want to find a nice, basic, party dress, where the boobs don't hang out and not slit up to mid thigh. This should not be so hard...

dar


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

It scares me too... not so much the pretending and the show, but the actuality of premature sexual activity... children just can't make good decisions about sex, even if they are curious. I was molested by an older boy when I was a child, it was completely traumatic. Kids do all kinds of things that would make you shudder.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

If the hoochie clothes are still all the rage when my DD is 10, she'll have to either be very unpopular or start new trends, because she will *not* be leaving our house looking that way. Yikes. It gives me the creeps, big time. Not to mention how my DH would react.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

My dd and I have never given in to these fads. You can look nice with only a moderate amount of skin showing. Not that there's anything wrong with skin, but we don't need to look that (trashy) way to be attractive.


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## liberal_chick (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Individuation* 

ETA: Our other "total ban" is Limited Too. Have you been in there recently? Ick.

I recently bought a few things for my 11 year old sister from Limited Too. Was it easy? No. I reeeeeeeally had to search through the stuff, but I found a pair of jeans (that actually don't fit like a glove and look really nice), a pair of olive colored cargos, and a shirt (with a high neckline, long sleeves, and went all the way to her hips!). But some of their stuff?







: The only reason I didn't buy everything from Gap Kids is b/c I didn't take her with me into the store.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Interesting article. I'm reading it from my lonely branch though... which is common for me at MDC.







My Dd plays with Bratz and Barbies. She listens to music with some mature content, and she wears "belly shirts".

See, my kids make their own clothing choices. They have tons of my opinion and guidance and what I might think about any particular item, but I have yet to ever say "You aren't allowed to wear that." I might say "Do you feel comfortable with this? Here are my thoughts..." or "That color is really cool. I am wondering if it's really an appropriate style to wear for xyz though. Do you think the see-thru thing is an issue or will you be cool with it there?" My 13 year old Dd does have some shirts that expose her belly (mostly warm weather attire), some short shorts, and some short skirts. She really likes to wear funky patterned tights and gloves, and she switches styles often going from emo/punky to pink and princessy to work out pants and a plain tee. Even in a short skirt and navel baring tank top I've not seen her look "hoochy". She also wears make-up including eyeliner, mascara, and lipstick.

Perhaps it's in the attitude. She's not really been about trying to get "boys" with her clothing choices. Ive never seen her "show off" her body. Ive only seen her experiment with clothing styles she likes that she feels good about. And I know she feels that way because we talk about it. On the other hand I have seen some girls her age and older that it seems are desperately longing for attention in their clothing and behavior. And both the kids and I have talked about that when we see it as well.

What I think it sometimes comes down to is a mix of things. Bodies and minds (although the minds are a bit behind sometimes I think) that are sexually maturing + a desire to be seen as something _anything_ besides a "little kid" + not a lot of parental involvment outside of "bans" and rules = that girl gone wild feeling. While it's an issue that concerns me when I see it I don't think that every pre/teen girl that dresses that way, listens to that kind of music, or plays with Bratz & Barbie dolls has "gone wild". My Dd does all of those things, and she's a strong minded young woman who's not afraid to tell you what she thinks and why.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
I have a 13 year old, so a "middle-schooler". We're currently trying to find a dress for her to wear to my dad's wedding. It needs to be fairly dressy (not like a formal, but pretty nice), not white, and not "hoochie". We're also trying to for not-black, because it is traditionally considered verboten for weddings, although I hear that rule is changing so we may go with black, because 80% of the dresses we've found are black. We've been to at least a dozen stores, and have come up with squat, except for some dresses that look like something a 50-year old would wear. I want to find a nice, basic, party dress, where the boobs don't hang out and not slit up to mid thigh. This should not be so hard...

dar

How about this one: http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/2912170?...origin=related

Also, do NOT worry about her wearing black. I bet 90 percent of the guests will be wearing black. The whole "verboten" thing is not just 'changing' it's OVER!

My 13 year old is wearing this in the largest kids size (16) to a wedding http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/2909112?...origin=related

And my 11 y.o. is wearing this. The 13 y.o. tried on the size 16 and it was HUGE, so even if your dd doesn't normally wear this size it might fit. http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/2904197?...origin=related


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

I've seen mini skirts in the TODDLERS section of stores. Size 2T, no kidding! I think it is absolutely disgusting that people would dress their little girls in these clothes. There are so many child predators out there that prey on innocent little children, why would anyone want to sexualize a small child and heighten the risk that she get molested by one of these sick people?

Tiny skirts or half shirts on young girls is not cute, it's creepy. Children grow up and develop and interest in sex far too early as it is, why would anyone want to rush this? I guess this all hits a sore spot with me because I was targeted by several sexual predators as a child. I just can't see why anyone would want to show off a young girl's body like that.


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## snuggly mama (Mar 29, 2004)

Dd is 11 and just rented the Bratz video game from the store. And OMG!!! I am actually really glad I let her rent it, against my initial instinct, because it gave us a real chance to talk about the effects of clothing choices, what I consider appropriate and why, that sort of thing. The characters in this game were literally wearing tiny little shorts that didn't even cover their backsides, underwear mascarading as skirts and shirts, and thigh-high boots. And don't even get me started on the whole school-girl-in-a-uniform with way too sexy stockings thing. It was absolutely vile.

What dd actually wears is jeans, long-sleeved shirts, long dressy skirts with sweaters in the winter, or layered camis and shirts so that no belly skin is exposed. A lot of it is about comfort -- she still likes climbing trees and riding her bike, which is pretty tough to do wearing a miniskirt and heels! She really does love fashion, and I shop with her to allow her to express her own style in a way that doesn't make her look hoochie-ish. I'm all about letting her pick lots of accessories! She has good taste in clothes and dresses very much like most of her friends -- conservative, but still in fashion. She isn't in public school, so I imagine that's a factor. But I still think the biggest factor is that we, as her parents, have talked about this since she was old enough to make choices about her clothes. Hopefully, as she grows, she'll be able to make good choices for herself.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I agree with the general sentiment against dressing little girls in miniskirts and the like, but I think this "making them vulnerable to predators" is a fallacy. Predators target those who appear vulnerable, not those who are dressed too "adult." They may target a girl because she seems to be screaming for attention through her revealing clothes but they are at least as likely also to target a girl who is dressed plainly and seems shy and mousy. They look for psychological vulnerability and you can't protect your child from predators in any way by dressing them modestly.

Edited because I snipped the wrong quote.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Quote:

I want to find a nice, basic, party dress, where the boobs don't hang out and not slit up to mid thigh. This should not be so hard...
My sister has always had to start *months* ahead to find decent clothing for her flute concerts and her graduation. She's very, very thin, and the stores seem to think that all thin girls want to look like catwalk models with very little on.







:

She's found a good thrift store recently though, and generally manages to piece together some classy outfits, mostly skirts and sweater sets.
Actually, I've found our thrift store is the best place to get decent clothing--you just have to find a good one and visit regularly.


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## Imvishta (Nov 6, 2006)

Here's a related article _What's Wrong With Cinderella?_ by PEGGY ORENSTEIN
Published: December 24, 2006 http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/24/ma...rincess.t.html

Is there a place to post the entire article for those who aren't signed-in to "The New York Times" or for when it's archived?

In any case, the article is about the mother loosing it when once again there is a "Cinderella" them at the dentist office of all places. "Everything" is so gender specific. She does go into the issue of gender constancy, writing that _until they're about 6 or 7, children don't realize that the sex they were born with is immutable. They believe that they have a choice: they can grow up to be either a mommy or a daddy. Some psychologists say that until permanency sets in kids embrace whatever stereotypes our culture presents, whether it's piling on the most spangles or attacking one another with light sabers. What better way to assure that they'll always remain themselves?... By not buying the Princess Pull-Ups, I may be inadvertently communicating that being female (to the extent that my daughter is able to understand it) is a bad thing._

Also, interestingly, pink used to be a "boys" color as it was a pastell version of red. Blue, found on the dresses of Cinderella, Alice in Wonderland and the Virgin Mary was the girly color. Every time I see commercials for all this mass marketed girl stuff I'm so glad we have a boy!

In any case, an intersting article somewhat related to the OP's article.


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## Imvishta (Nov 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
I agree with the general sentiment against dressing little girls in miniskirts and the like, but I think this "making them vulnerable to predators" is a fallacy. Predators target those who appear vulnerable, not those who are dressed too "adult." They may target a girl because she seems to be screaming for attention through her revealing clothes but they are at least as likely also to target a girl who is dressed plainly and seems shy and mousy. They look for psychological vulnerability and you can't protect your child from predators in any way by dressing them modestly.

Edited because I snipped the wrong quote.


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Imvishta* 
She does go into the issue of gender constancy, writing that _until they're about 6 or 7, children don't realize that the sex they were born with is immutable. They believe that they have a choice: they can grow up to be either a mommy or a daddy. Some psychologists say that until permanency sets in kids embrace whatever stereotypes our culture presents, whether it's piling on the most spangles or attacking one another with light sabers._

I think that was proven wrong with the tragedy of David Riemer and the countless numbers of intersex children who were "assigned" a gender they didn't identify with.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkajane* 
I think that was proven wrong with the tragedy of David Riemer and the countless numbers of intersex children who were "assigned" a gender they didn't identify with.


EXACTLY. That article is a bunch of bs when it comes to gender identity. Very very very young children "know" their gender (sometimes they even know they have been born the wrong one).

My in-laws tried to raise their boys and girl without gender sterotypes and it acutally created a fair amount of resentment.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
How about this one: http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/2912170?...origin=related

Also, do NOT worry about her wearing black. I bet 90 percent of the guests will be wearing black. The whole "verboten" thing is not just 'changing' it's OVER!

That is really a cute dress! I love the style, and it would look good on Rain. Of course, the nearest Nordstrom is about 40 miles away, but we might get that desperate.

She's definitely out of kid sizes... probably a 11 or 13 in dresses. We keep finding cute stuff in kid sizes, and it sucks... but she's 5'8" and voluptuous...

dar


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
That is really a cute dress! I love the style, and it would look good on Rain. Of course, the nearest Nordstrom is about 40 miles away, but we might get that desperate.

She's definitely out of kid sizes... probably a 11 or 13 in dresses. We keep finding cute stuff in kid sizes, and it sucks... but she's 5'8" and voluptuous...

dar

I had a feeling you'd like it! I have seen your dd's pictues on your blog, but didn't realize she was that tall! My 13 y.o. is 5 foot 4 but has the body (except at the bust) of a kid (no hips, concave tummy!) so she can still wear many kid's size 16's.


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## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

I really want to share this... I was so proud of my husband. This is his post (or a week or two ago) on a popular comic/gamer forum:
http://cad-forums.com/showthread.php?t=65525

and this is the response post he made:
http://cad-forums.com/showpost.php?p...3&postcount=37


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## stacey2061 (Feb 1, 2006)

this stuff is so scary...when i found out i was pregnant, i prayed for a boy because of how little girls are these days. i'm only 23 and i can't believe how much things have changed since i was in jr high...


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

Bratz make me sick, especially the baby ones. I have two little sisters-in-law who are 9 and 11. The 9-year-old loves Bratz and got a few for Christmas. Her mom knows why I hate them and respects the fact that I refuse to buy them, so she gave me alternate gift ideas.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

_But they allow the culture of boy-toy sexuality to bore unchecked into their little ones' ears and eyeballs, displacing their nimble and growing brains and impoverishing the sense of wider possibilities in life._
Why is it that this columnist (and so many other people) believe female sexuality is SO INCREDIBLY POWERFUL that any expression of it "displaces" everything else in a girl's life, "impoverishes" her, and prevents everyone else from seeing her as anything other than sexual??? Why is it that when preteen boys devote all their free time to sports and adopt a "tough" athletic attitude and act as if the entire fate of the universe hinges upon whether their team wins, hardly anyone frets that this is "displacing their nimble and growing brains and impoverishing the sense of wider possibilities in life," and hardly anyone perceives them as NOTHING BUT athletes? Why is it assumed that a retired athlete can have a second career but anyone who ever does a sexy dance will never be able to amount to anything?

That said, ITA that it's pathetic when people can't find the kind of clothing they need/want because stores are overrun with one particular type of fashion. Looking ahead to Little Boy sizes, I can see that there are plenty of clothes in SHAPES that are fine for my son to wear, but it's going to be tricky to find clothes that don't stereotype him as a soldier or athlete--you know, people who earn their living by selling things they can do with their bodies.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stacey2061* 
this stuff is so scary...when i found out i was pregnant, i prayed for a boy because of how little girls are these days. i'm only 23 and i can't believe how much things have changed since i was in jr high...

See now I don't think this helps! It's not "how girls are" it's how girls are being treated/encouraged to behave. And not wanting a daughter because of it...*sigh*


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
I've seen mini skirts in the TODDLERS section of stores. Size 2T, no kidding! I think it is absolutely disgusting that people would dress their little girls in these clothes.

Are you against mini skirts altogether, for anyone? Whom do you think might be the ideal mini-skirt wearer? I'm truly curious. A 13 year old wearing a short skirt is better than a toddler? Or maybe me, 32 and out of shape after having 2 children? My mom wears short skirts and dresses, and she's 54. (True fact.) Is that less disgusting?

My 2.5 year old daughter has what you'd probably call "mini-skirts." She wears them over her jeans and leggings. Nothing about her attire should call sexual attention to her toddler self.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
_But they allow the culture of boy-toy sexuality to bore unchecked into their little ones' ears and eyeballs, displacing their nimble and growing brains and impoverishing the sense of wider possibilities in life._
Why is it that this columnist (and so many other people) believe female sexuality is SO INCREDIBLY POWERFUL that any expression of it "displaces" everything else in a girl's life, "impoverishes" her, and prevents everyone else from seeing her as anything other than sexual???

I get what you're saying, but...the columnist didn't say "female" sexuality. He explicitly said "boy-toy" sexuality. They're not the same thing, and that was part of his point, imo. I do not want my dd's ideas about sexuality to amount to "I'm wearing a thong and a ton of makeup, so I'm sexy". I think the boy-toy sexuality being discussed _does_ deprive girls of a sense of wider possibilities - they're being taught to adhere to a narrow, rigid definition of female sexuality - and they're learning it _young_.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teachma* 
Are you against mini skirts altogether, for anyone? Whom do you think might be the ideal mini-skirt wearer? I'm truly curious. A 13 year old wearing a short skirt is better than a toddler? Or maybe me, 32 and out of shape after having 2 children? My mom wears short skirts and dresses, and she's 54. (True fact.) Is that less disgusting?

My 2.5 year old daughter has what you'd probably call "mini-skirts." She wears them over her jeans and leggings. Nothing about her attire should call sexual attention to her toddler self.

I am talking about mini skirts with nothing underneath. The kind of skirts that are so short that your bottom is visible. If an adult wants to wear a mini skirt then that is fine (and by adult I mean over 18 years old) but I would not feel comfortable with my child wearing a skirt that her bottom was visible in, or any other type of revealing clothing for that matter.

You are an adult and if you want to wear a mini skirt even though you are "out of shape" then nothing is wrong with that. Beauty comes in different shapes and sizes and I don't think it's disgusting for a larger or older woman to wear something that shows her body.

I personally would not wear a mini skirt for anyone other than my DP. I'm not the type that wants other people seeing my upper thighs or bottom. I'm not comfortable wearing any type of revealing clothing, I don't like the kind of attention it brings.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
I agree with the general sentiment against dressing little girls in miniskirts and the like, but I think this "making them vulnerable to predators" is a fallacy. Predators target those who appear vulnerable, not those who are dressed too "adult."

But what about a case like Jon Benet Ramsey? Do you think she was targeted because of her vulnerability or because she appeared to be too adult? I think the fact that she was sexualized had a lot to do with her being targeted. I could be wrong.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
But what about a case like Jon Benet Ramsey? Do you think she was targeted because of her vulnerability or because she appeared to be too adult? I think the fact that she was sexualized had a lot to do with her being targeted. I could be wrong.

de-lurking to say that ITA.


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
I am talking about mini skirts with nothing underneath. The kind of skirts that are so short that your bottom is visible. If an adult wants to wear a mini skirt then that is fine (and by adult I mean over 18 years old) but I would not feel comfortable with my child wearing a skirt that her bottom was visible in, or any other type of revealing clothing for that matter.

During the hot summer months, I have often taken my diaper-clad toddlers out in public with nothing more covering their bodies. I guess I don't see how it would be worse for my 2 year old to wear a short skirt over that diaper instead of nothing at all.







Presumably, most young toddlers are wearing diapers under their clothes, so those size 2 skirts probably would not result in a view of the tush.


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
But what about a case like Jon Benet Ramsey? Do you think she was targeted because of her vulnerability or because she appeared to be too adult? I think the fact that she was sexualized had a lot to do with her being targeted. I could be wrong.

Who knows? Can't make a judgment on this, really, until we know who her murderer was. If for instance, it was actually someone in her family, then it would be quite a ddifferent story from what it would be if the murderer fits a profile like that of John Mark Karr.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teachma* 
During the hot summer months, I have often taken my diaper-clad toddlers out in public with nothing more covering their bodies. I guess I don't see how it would be worse for my 2 year old to wear a short skirt over that diaper instead of nothing at all.







Presumably, most young toddlers are wearing diapers under their clothes, so those size 2 skirts probably would not result in a view of the tush.

I actually see these - toddler in only a diaper, and toddler in diaper plus miniskirt - as completely different. A toddler in a diaper is portraying a toddler...a small, juvenile person with no grasp of adult sexuality. A toddler in a miniskirt (depending on style..."miniskirt" is a vague term) is a small, juvenile person clad in a style that's designed to highlight and underscore adult sexuality.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teachma* 
During the hot summer months, I have often taken my diaper-clad toddlers out in public with nothing more covering their bodies. I guess I don't see how it would be worse for my 2 year old to wear a short skirt over that diaper instead of nothing at all.







Presumably, most young toddlers are wearing diapers under their clothes, so those size 2 skirts probably would not result in a view of the tush.

I don't think it is sexualizing your child to let him or her wear just a diaper. My own son has gone out in just a diaper in the warmer weather. What I am referring to is dressing a young girl in provocative adult clothing. There is a big difference IMO.

I see what you're saying about the skirt over the diaper. I understand that your daughter's tush is not going to be visible when she is also wearing a diaper. My point is that I would not choose to dress my child in clothing that is used to be sexually provocative by adult woman. I don't think a skirt over jeans is sexually provocative. I do think a micro mini and a top that shows cleavage and/or belly is sexually provocative and inappropriate for young girls to be wearing. I am not opposed to all short skirts, I am opposed to young girls wearing clothing that shows too much skin and makes them look like mini strippers.

Obviously many people disagree with this or there wouldn't be such a market for these types of clothes.


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I actually see these - toddler in only a diaper, and toddler in diaper plus miniskirt - as completely different. A toddler in a diaper is portraying a toddler...a small, juvenile person with no grasp of adult sexuality. A toddler in a miniskirt (depending on style..."miniskirt" is a vague term) is a small, juvenile person clad in a style that's designed to highlight and underscore adult sexuality.

Interesting. I'd use it as a quick "cover-up" type thing if we're going from the park/beach into a store. Throw it ontop of the diaper with a quick tank top. My intention is not to highlight adult sexuality. But then again, even parents of those children who are dressed in what I might consider to be a sexy manner probably would disagree that they wanted to highlight and underscore adult sexuality. The clothing may cause some people to think of children in that way, but I am sure it isn't the intention of any parent to have their todddler looked upon as a sexual being. Or do you think it is? I can't imagine...


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## TheBluebird (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imvishta
She does go into the issue of gender constancy, writing that until they're about 6 or 7, children don't realize that the sex they were born with is immutable. They believe that they have a choice: they can grow up to be either a mommy or a daddy. Some psychologists say that until permanency sets in kids embrace whatever stereotypes our culture presents, whether it's piling on the most spangles or attacking one another with light sabers.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkajane* 
I think that was proven wrong with the tragedy of David Riemer and the countless numbers of intersex children who were "assigned" a gender they didn't identify with.

I don't think that's what the pp said. It didn't say that kids will permanently pick up whatever gender is handed to them. It says, _"Some psychologists say that *until permanency sets in* kids embrace whatever stereotypes our culture presents...."_ I take that to mean that kids don't know/understand their gender until about that age. Not that a gender can be imposed upon a child. If gender could be imposed upon a child then there would be no transexuals...


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teachma* 
but I am sure it isn't the intention of any parent to have their todddler looked upon as a sexual being. Or do you think it is? I can't imagine...

I actually watched a special on children and beauty pageants not too long ago and I have a hard time believing that some of those women are not trying to dress their child in a sexual or very adult way. I've seen children as young as 4 wearing full makeup, fake teeth, fake eyelashes, hair done up, heeled shoes, nylons, with bikinis on and body glitter. I'm not saying all pageant moms do this, but lots do.

I met a pageant mom a few months back at my son's pedi office and she was very proud of the fact that her 5 year old daughter looked like a 16 year old when done up. She had a book of pageant pictures she shared with me and there were some very provocative photos in it. I'm not positive, but I SWEAR she stuffed the chest in some of her daughter's outfits.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teachma* 
Interesting. I'd use it as a quick "cover-up" type thing if we're going from the park/beach into a store. Throw it ontop of the diaper with a quick tank top. My intention is not to highlight adult sexuality. But then again, even parents of those children who are dressed in what I might consider to be a sexy manner probably would disagree that they wanted to highlight and underscore adult sexuality. The clothing may cause some people to think of children in that way, but I am sure it isn't the intention of any parent to have their todddler looked upon as a sexual being. Or do you think it is? I can't imagine...

I don't think the parents mean it that way. But, that doesn't change the fact that a lot of clothes for young kids are styled like "sexy" adult clothes. I don't know if this applies to the miniskirts that you're talking about, because I haven't seen them. But...okay - our local big box grocery store sells kids clothes. About a year ago, they were carrying these fake fur jackets that I've only _ever_ seen on streetwalkers...in size 3. I don't get that. I freely admit to having the fashion sense of a turnip, but I can't imagine clothing my child in togs that are strongly identified with prostitution...I just don't get that at all. These things sell, and I'm sure the parents aren't going "oh, how cute - little Janie can look like a hooker" - I just don't know what they are thinking, and I really don't understand the designers who make this stuff in the first place.

I've never felt that dressing little kids up in sexy clothes makes them a target for pedophiles...I don't pretend to understand how a pedophile thinks, but it just doesn't make sense to me that they'd be chasing after adult sexual symbols. I do think dressing little kids up in sexy clothes sends the _kids_ a bad message.


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

My dd wears "miniskirts". They come down to her knees, though. And she wears shorts and tank tops in the summer. I never thought of them as "sexualizing" her, but rather that they are comfortable for the hot, humid summers we have. For me, they were never "sexual", they're functional.

As for regular wear, she usually just wears boots, jeans and a tshirt.

The major contention I have is seeing toddlers in miniskirts in the winter. I can understand in the summer; it's hot, sticky, and humid. But I'm not understanding this trend of miniskirts and skimpy tops in the winter. I can't grasp the concept.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

I've never felt that dressing little kids up in sexy clothes makes them a target for pedophiles...I don't pretend to understand how a pedophile thinks, but it just doesn't make sense to me that they'd be chasing after adult sexual symbols. I do think dressing little kids up in sexy clothes sends the _kids_ a bad message.


I don't know....dressing little kids up in sexy outfits may not 'make' them a target for pedophiles, and yet I am inclined to think that it contributes to an objectification of children in a way that might appeal to a pedophile. (I don't pretend to understand the disgusting inner-world of a pedophile either)


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## snuggly mama (Mar 29, 2004)

I encourage my children to dress in clothes that make them look like . . . children. Not because I think that sexy clothing will attract pedophiles, but because I think dressing in revealing/sexy clothing encourages girls to think of themselves in those terms long before they are ready. Not saying this well, but hopefully someone knows what I mean!

When I go out with dh and want to feel "sexy", I dress in different clothes than when we are hanging out in the yard together. Dressing up, with full makeup, nylons and whatever, makes me personally act in a sexier way (not vulgar, just appropriately sexy with my husband). For the same reasons, I want dd to dress in clothes that reflect her purpose. When we go to church, we wear nice clothes out of respect. When we go hiking, we wear appropriate outdoor clothes for comfort and safety. Since there are no conditions under which her purpose, at age 11, could be reflected in provocative clothes, then she needn't wear them.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Redifer* 
My dd wears "miniskirts". They come down to her knees, though. And she wears shorts and tank tops in the summer. I never thought of them as "sexualizing" her, but rather that they are comfortable for the hot, humid summers we have. For me, they were never "sexual", they're functional.

As for regular wear, she usually just wears boots, jeans and a tshirt.

The major contention I have is seeing toddlers in miniskirts in the winter. I can understand in the summer; it's hot, sticky, and humid. But I'm not understanding this trend of miniskirts and skimpy tops in the winter. I can't grasp the concept.

If your dd's skirts are coming down to her knees, I doubt that they're what I'm visualizing. I may be making my comments based on an erroneous assumption about what is meant by "miniskirt" in this context.

I also don't have a real problem with bellies showing. My sister and I wore two-piece swimsuits when we were little. They weren't even a little bit sexy in style - but they were very practical when we were soaking wet from swimming and needed to use a bathroom.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I think everyone has different ideas about what a mini skirt actually is. My Dd wears skirts like these:
Black skirt

denim mini

Denim dark

Camo mini

Sometimes she might wear tights or leggings or shorts under them. Sometimes not- especially in the spring and summer. I don't think she is being sexualized. As a teen girl she is a sexual being with or without the mini skirt. She is not sexually active with other people yet, but she is a sexual being on her own. I think she has a right to wear a skirt without being cast right into the role of "hoochie". She is more than a skirt and more than sexual. She's you know... a whole person.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If your dd's skirts are coming down to her knees, I doubt that they're what I'm visualizing. I may be making my comments based on an erroneous assumption about what is meant by "miniskirt" in this context.

Same here. When I say "miniskirt" I am referring to the type of skirt Britney Spears wore in her school girl video, it was probably about 5 inches long at most. It showed her upper thighs.

IMO any skirt that comes to mid-thigh or longer is not considered a "miniskirt".


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Eh, when I was in middle school I loved midriffs (I think what we call belly shirts now) and mini skirts - although not together. I did have some standards! We were also doing big hair and *shudder* rainbow eyeshadow.

I was a nerdy tomboy. Kinda still am. And I still love short skirts, only I wear them with heels now. Theoretically, because these days I don't go anywhere worth dressing up for.

My mom is prudish and uptight, but she got married in an ultra mini-skirt dress that was the fashion at the time. It didn't turn her into a wanton reckless woman of sin. I'm still waiting for her to lighten up.









I can't say I relate to the current fashion, but my parents couldn't relate to mine, and their parents couldn't relate to theirs. Every generation goes through this angst.

The forces of marketing and big business are around us CONSTANTLY. Not only in clothes. I'm hoping to raise a kid who is aware of marketing tactics, is media savy and a critical thinker. If she chooses to wear awful clothing while doing those things, so be it. (Yes, awful was tongue in cheek. Awful to me).

Bratz may be "hoochie," but Barbie was a German hooker and the innocent sweet baby dolls are based on the idea that little girls should grow up to be mommies. Period. Any gendered toy has a bunch of crap behind it. I don't think we need to throw out the toys - we can keep the toys, and teach our children to examine the messages society bombards us with.

Sniff. Can't believe you're putting down my beloved mini skirts.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen* 
Bratz may be "hoochie," but Barbie was a German hooker and the innocent sweet baby dolls are based on the idea that little girls should grow up to be mommies. Period. Any gendered toy has a bunch of crap behind it. I don't think we need to throw out the toys - we can keep the toys, and teach our children to examine the messages society bombards us with.

 Amen to all of that!


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teachma* 
Interesting. I'd use it as a quick "cover-up" type thing if we're going from the park/beach into a store. Throw it ontop of the diaper with a quick tank top. My intention is not to highlight adult sexuality. But then again, even parents of those children who are dressed in what I might consider to be a sexy manner probably would disagree that they wanted to highlight and underscore adult sexuality. The clothing may cause some people to think of children in that way, but I am sure it isn't the intention of any parent to have their todddler looked upon as a sexual being. Or do you think it is? I can't imagine...

I think the issue with mini-skirts or toddler clothing is that they are sometimes small replicas of adult clothing. When there are patterns, fabric that are in little girl styles - be it short or otherwise, that seems fine. When there are clothes that are made just like adult clothes but in smaller sizes, I think that is inappropriate. Why do little girls need to have on halter tops that show the belly? It disgusts me to see 3-4 year olds in these type of clothes. But I grew up in a family/community where 15/16 is the age for makeup, etc.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
I think everyone has different ideas about what a mini skirt actually is. My Dd wears skirts like these:

Sometimes she might wear tights or leggings or shorts under them. Sometimes not- especially in the spring and summer. I don't think she is being sexualized. As a teen girl she is a sexual being with or without the mini skirt. She is not sexually active with other people yet, but she is a sexual being on her own. I think she has a right to wear a skirt without being cast right into the role of "hoochie".


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
Eh, when I was in middle school I loved midriffs (I think what we call belly shirts now) and mini skirts - although not together. I did have some standards! We were also doing big hair and *shudder* rainbow eyeshadow.

Neither of these issues have anything to do with what I'm talking about at all. I wore some outrageous clothes when I was middle-school age, and continued to do so throughout my teens. I was struggling with my own sexuality and sexual identity and trying to find a way to express it. Like many teenagers, I went overboard.

I'm not talking about middle school or high school girls. I'm talking about little kids being dressed up like streetwalkers. It's not necessary. I think it's unhealthy. I don't understand why anybody does it.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

I haven't read all the stuff, and can't get the article to work for me, but I think the way many parents let their little girls dress is horrid. I see 6 year olds in skirts that only reach about an inch past their crotch, words across their bottoms, tight tummy revealings shirts. There is no way on Earth my (possible future) little girl would EVER be allowed to wear such things. I'd like my little girls to look like little girls.

My sister is in middle school, and her sense of fashion is ridiculous. She doesn't dress skanky, she just looks stupid. But hey, what do I know. I was one that always beat to my own drum and didn't care what everyone else was wearing. I wore what I wanted. My sister, is uber trend conscience.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I'm not talking about middle school or high school girls. I'm talking about little kids being dressed up like streetwalkers. It's not necessary. I think it's unhealthy. I don't understand why anybody does it.

 Do you have any links or images that can show the kinds of toddler clothes you find inappropriate? No snark at all, I am just curious because I am not sure I've seen any toddler clothes I found to be too sexy.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Dechen where have you been all my life??







great points, all.

i love Bratz (anyone who has followed me around MDC already knows this







) and my dd has several bratz dolls. yes, she is a toddler.

i also let her play with makeup ~ i made her own little makeup bag (most of which got dumped out as she was "mixing" them







) and she loves spending hours (or, ok, at least *minutes*) in front of the mirror putting on makeup. (on her legs.







)

she also has a shirt that says "Princess" that she loves and is currently a little too big for her, but i'm sure she loves it enough that she'll keep wearing it as she gets older.

she has a mini skirt that i let her wear constantly over the summer, and i caught major flak from other parents at my ds's school about letting my toddler run around in a mini skirt. but it was CUTE and it matched her princess shirt, and gosh darnit i think if anyone is going to think "bad" thoughts about a baby they're going to do it no matter what the kid is wearing. arggh when she got big enough that i could easily see her diaper under it i did make her stop wearing it though ~ because when she's older i'll make her wear things that conceal her undergarments too. *i* wear things that conceal my undergarments ~ even though i love my mini skirts.









the talent show described in the article seemed extremely .... uh .... *extreme.* just, really inappropriate for girls that age.

i think it's ok to let a 13 year old go to school in glitter and a mini skirt ... but gyrate on a stage for a crowd????!!!! NO. WAY.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

StormBride,

When I was in 2nd grade, I remember a girl wearing a bra (!) so that she could let the strap show. Something about Madonna? And those white lace gloves? (I thought it was pretty dumb). Definately the same phenomena - young girls dressing in what older generations considered risque clothing. I'm not saying you need to approve, but this *is* an issue that every generation deals with. There is nothing new going on here.

Look, I hate the message that women (and girls) are only good for sex. But part of how we move beyond that disgusting idea is to stop pasting labels on other women (and girls) who dress in so-called "sexy" clothing. You wear these clothes, you wear those clothes, whatever. Your identity transcends what you wear. Your worth, intelligence, and compasion have nothing to do with what costume you choose to cover up with. I'm not going to perpetuate the sexualization of women by using such terms as "prostitot" and forcing adult interpretations upon childish desires to do what is trendy. I find the term "prostitot" far more apalling than any fashion trend.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
Do you have any links or images that can show the kinds of toddler clothes you find inappropriate? No snark at all, I am just curious because I am not sure I've seen any toddler clothes I found to be too sexy.









I don't have any links or images. But, the particular outfit I've been thinking of it one I saw at a store last winter. It was a leopard-print fake fur jacket in a streetwalker style (I don't know what else to call it - it was exactly like the cliche one that the hookers wore in 80s shows). It came with a little skinny strap purse with fur trim, a little camisole-type black shirt with lace around the v-neck and a pair of tight leopard-print shorts. I can see a little girl liking it...but I can't understand why someone would even design such a thing for a little girl. This was in size 3 and 4.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I am far more worried about what "adult" type clothing is saying to my daughter about herself than I am worried about what other people will think. I'm concerned that she, like many girls in our culture, will feel intense pressure as she grows up to be "eye candy" for her male peers. "Reviving Ophelia" and "The Beauty Myth" come to mind as classic books that still have a lot of resonance, on this topic.

This isn't an issue of teen rebellion and "girls wearing stuff the old fart generation thinks is too risque" or whatever, clearly, if it's being sold to kids far, far below the age at which "teen rebellion" generally sets in. This is an extension of the commercialization of childhood. This is not about 14 year olds dyeing their hair odd colors and wearing "outrageous" fashions to get a reaction. It's a cooptation of that idea and it's not being sold to girls so much as it is to their parents and everyone else. "You're a rebel, buy your daughter a bratz doll, they're cooler than barbies because they have ATTITUDE and attitude equals dressing skimpily and sulking!"


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen* 
StormBride,

When I was in 2nd grade, I remember a girl wearing a bra (!) so that she could let the strap show. Something about Madonna? And those white lace gloves? (I thought it was pretty dumb). Definately the same phenomena - young girls dressing in what older generations considered risque clothing. I'm not saying you need to approve, but this *is* an issue that every generation deals with. There is nothing new going on here.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Perhaps this was happening when Madonna was first trendy...but I don't remember any of the little girls I knew (I was born in '68) wearing adult fashions that were considered risque. I do think this is a relatively new phenomenon.

Quote:

Look, I hate the message that women (and girls) are only good for sex. But part of how we move beyond that disgusting idea is to stop pasting labels on other women (and girls) who dress in so-called "sexy" clothing. You wear these clothes, you wear those clothes, whatever. Your identity transcends what you wear. Your worth, intelligence, and compasion have nothing to do with what costume you choose to cover up with. I'm not going to perpetuate the sexualization of women by using such terms as "prostitot" and forcing adult interpretations upon childish desires to do what is trendy. I find the term "prostitot" far more apalling than any fashion trend.
I'm not going to label the child at all. But, I don't understand designing this kind of stuff for little kids. I don't understand letting little kids wear it. (And, even second grade is older than what I'm talking about.) I can certainly understand why people use the term "prostitot" to describe these fashions..although I dislike it, as it sounds like a judgment on the child. My issue isn't with little girls who want to wear the "pretty" stuff at the mall. My issue is with anybody thinking it's appropriate to design clothes for preschoolers that are derived from _very_ adult and sexy fashions.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

There are definitely different kinds of miniskirts (or whatever) being marketed toward toddlers. Some are very adult looking (just smaller) and some are just cute. The difference is obvious. My dd was given a hand-me-down bathing suit. Bikini actually. The bottoms were big enough to cover the diaper, the top was pretty much just strings with a little triangle to cover each "breast" with a flower where the nipple would be. The size? 3 MONTHS! Um, a 3 month old doesn't really need a bikini top, what exactly should she be covering? And nipple covering flowers? Sick. Marketing bikinis for babies is just a little weird anyway. Casting her into some sort of role at an age when she is so precious and innocent. It just felt dirty or something









I tend to opt for clothes for my kids that are comfortable and easy to wear. Harder to climb in a dress, though sometimes I put her in a short dress with pants underneath. Cute, not "sexy". And she can move around easily....into the mud of course. She is a baby (now 20 months) and I hate how limited we are already. Everything is either over marketed (disney princesses, Dora, or whatever) or too grown up in style. She should be running, climbing, and learning about her world, not a fashion accessory!

At 8, 10, or even 13 she shouldn't be a consumer. We don't have a tv and I am thankful that my kids aren't exposed to the ads and videos that sell them on what they "should" be like. The difference between kids who have this exposure and kids who don't is astounding to me. I never expected it. I don't want my kids to be every marketing executive's dream. Young, impressionable, and willing to spend on the latest trends. I have no problem with them discovering the world (even the sexual parts) on their own, and on their own terms. I don't want them discovering it because it is pushed on them by society at ridiculously young ages. I owe them more than that


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama* 
At 8, 10, or even 13 she shouldn't be a consumer. We don't have a tv and I am thankful that my kids aren't exposed to the ads and videos that sell them on what they "should" be like. The difference between kids who have this exposure and kids who don't is astounding to me. I never expected it. I don't want my kids to be every marketing executive's dream. Young, impressionable, and willing to spend on the latest trends.


I disagree that a kid shouldn't be a consumer. Perhaps I feel that way because my kids have money (well, sometimes) of their own to spend. Or because we make many purchasing decisions as a family. We definitely talk about advertising gimmicks and marketing techniques, mindless vs thoughtful consumer, etc. I think 8 is just fine for that kind of thing.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Perhaps I should have worded it as "shouldn't be a target for advertisers" or something







Its late and I am tired....

I have read so much in the last few years about how marketers are targeting younger and younger children. They have more "disposable income". I want my kids to be thoughtful consumers, not just buying mindlessly what tv sells to them. At 3 and 5 my kids already get money they can spend how they choose and we talk about what they want to buy and where. They have learned that they can buy a nicer toy at the thrift store then they can for the same price at the discount store (for example).

I have a problem with how pervasive brands, advertising, and target marketing has become with the younger crowds, NOT with them being consumers. Already my ds' 4 and 5 year old friends discuss BRANDS of things and movies and celebrities. Its too young!


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## gen_here (Dec 31, 2005)

I haven't read all the replies yet, so I don't know if this has been mentioned. But I believe this starts way, way younger than middle school. My husband and I have already "banned" any clothing for our kids that has writing on the butt... and you find it already in 0-3 MONTH sizes. We've seen it all over the place the last few years here in older kids (like 6-10 year olds) and we call it pedofile bumper stickers.

I don't care if it IS a brand name, there's something that makes me physically ill about seeing a 4 year old girl walking through the airport with her dad with "Juicy" written across her butt!


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

No, I totally get the miniskirt thing... the thing is, they ARE skirts fashioned like an adults, but cut longer. I'll have to see if I have a pic...
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...eID=1370131967
ok this is Halloween, dd on the left. Those are her "normal" day to day clothes (well, aside from the fact that I painted the skirt and tights).. she went as a punk rocker. But, like I said, for the most part, she lives in jeans.

As far as writing on the butt, that's a big no-no. Last year at target, I saw booty shorts in the Toddler department that had "Jail Bait" written across the rear. ?!


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
I am far more worried about what "adult" type clothing is saying to my daughter about herself than I am worried about what other people will think. I'm concerned that she, like many girls in our culture, will feel intense pressure as she grows up to be "eye candy" for her male peers. "Reviving Ophelia" and "The Beauty Myth" come to mind as classic books that still have a lot of resonance, on this topic.

This isn't an issue of teen rebellion and "girls wearing stuff the old fart generation thinks is too risque" or whatever, clearly, if it's being sold to kids far, far below the age at which "teen rebellion" generally sets in. This is an extension of the commercialization of childhood. This is not about 14 year olds dyeing their hair odd colors and wearing "outrageous" fashions to get a reaction. It's a cooptation of that idea and it's not being sold to girls so much as it is to their parents and everyone else. "You're a rebel, buy your daughter a bratz doll, they're cooler than barbies because they have ATTITUDE and attitude equals dressing skimpily and sulking!"

Perfectly written. That's exactly my problem with it. Marketers have been trying to make rebellion profitable for ages. This is just the current form of it.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama* 
I have a problem with how pervasive brands, advertising, and target marketing has become with the younger crowds, NOT with them being consumers. Already my ds' 4 and 5 year old friends discuss BRANDS of things and movies and celebrities. Its too young!


I know that around here "upscale" brands are very big, But ZERO of it comes from advertising to kids or even marketing to them.

Instead its done through some viral marketing to adults that tends to filter down here. The big brands are "True Religion" Jeans, "Juicy" Clothing, "Junk Food" shirts (here is my 13 y.o. dd's current favorite...http://www.80stees.com/products/Kiss...rmal-Shirt.asp)

Even the "big" toys have NEVER been advertised and instead are word of mouth phenomenoms like "Webkinz" www.webkinz.com


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

This thread has really got me thinking.

We live/hang out in a sort of "alternative" environment. A lot of heavy metal/rock musicians, tattoo artists, performers etc. Plus alternative spirituality.

So ds hangs out at a lot of drum circles, pubs, performance spaces, local festivals and coffee houses etc. Lots of people with piercings, tattoos.. and.. fetish clothes. Yep. Lots of girls in lots of leather and fishnets. Now I imagine this does influence his ideas of gender and beauty, inevitably, and I have mixed feelings about it.

Because while many of these women are very powerful and smart and wonderful.. they do perpetuate a certain image of women. And while my community does challenge so many mainstream assumptions.. people DO buy right into the mainstream standards of beauty/sexuality. They just take the standard and cover it with piercings or tattoos, kwim? And it is VERY sexualized. And I have actually had some pretty heated discussions with some of my friends about it.. being that I am older and overweight and don't meet those standards.. I have said outright that for people who reject the mainstream.. they still totally objectify women. And buy into really limiting ideals of beauty/sexuality. And the women really buy into it.

Now many of us have kids... but when I think of it, they are mostly boys. I don't know how the leather babes dress their little girls.. we just all seem to have boys. And I love my friends and my world but I do worry sometimes about what messages ds is taking in.

We don't have a TV, we don't bring crappy magazines in the house, we are careful, though not extreme, about commericalization and consumption. We send DS to a preschool that is equally careful.

But what is he learning from our community? That all women are tattooed bondage babes?

(on the other hand I just bought him an awesome shirt that says "anarchy in the pre-K" LOL.

I guess this is slightly OT, but I think the way young girls dress is part and parcel of it. What's the message of the clothes? And what is the beholder supposed to think? What does wearing the clothes do to the young girls?

Very complicated and difficult issue, I think.

Then again, I dressed like a gypsy goth all through my teens. Black goop everywhere, silver skulls, thrift-store kimonos. And everyone worried. And I turned out okay. For the most part.


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aywilkes* 
Why do little girls need to have on halter tops that show the belly?

Because, if it were more appropriate, my little girl would be completely topless to stay cool in the summer!


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teachma* 
Because, if it were more appropriate, my little girl would be completely topless to stay cool in the summer!

I honestly think it is more apropriate for a very young girl to be topless than to be wearing a short halter top that bares her belly. A topless little girl looks like a little girl, a little girl in a short halter top looks like a mini teenager.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
I honestly think it is more apropriate for a very young girl to be topless than to be wearing a short halter top that bares her belly. A topless little girl looks like a little girl, a little girl in a short halter top looks like a mini teenager.

Just FYI, teenagers no longer wear short halter tops or anything else that is belly bearing (except a swim suit). At least not "trendy" ones.

The newest trend is loooooooooooooooooong folks. Your shirts don't just not show your midrif, they come down to the mid-thigh!
http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/2921803/...bo=2381660&P=1
http://www.abercrombiekids.com/webap...84127_-1_12155.
http://www.limitedtoo.com/detail/3361361#
They are tight fitting though.


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Just FYI, teenagers no longer wear short halter tops or anything else that is belly bearing (except a swim suit). At least not "trendy" ones.

The newest trend is loooooooooooooooooong folks. Your shirts don't just not show your midrif, they come down to the mid-thigh!
http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/2921803/...bo=2381660&P=1
http://www.abercrombiekids.com/webap...84127_-1_12155.
http://www.limitedtoo.com/detail/3361361#
They are tight fitting though.

Teenagers that I see on a regular basis still wear shirts showing their midriff or belly - and in December too! At least in the DC metro and Chicagoland areas.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Redifer* 
No, I totally get the miniskirt thing... the thing is, they ARE skirts fashioned like an adults, but cut longer. I'll have to see if I have a pic...
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...eID=1370131967
ok this is Halloween, dd on the left.

That outfit is soooo cute!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aywilkes* 
Teenagers that I see on a regular basis still wear shirts showing their midriff or belly - and in December too! At least in the DC metro and Chicagoland areas.


My guess is that you will see less and less of this in the next year or so. We live in a very trendy area and then the trends spread. The more pricey "trendy" stores like Abercrombie were very into the belly bearing stuff a few years ago. Now only long is in.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

maya that's so true ~~ every "trendy" place i look now all has the "tunic" stuff ... the longer thermals ... and the babydoll dresses covered by sweaters and layered over leggings / "skinny jeans" / etc....


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

Yea, same here Maya. Long long long shirts. (Which is great for being pregnant, because I can just shop the clearance rack instead of specialty maternity stores!). And I haven't seen any belly-baring here for about a year or two, as the lengths on shirts have been slowly getting longer and longer.

What bothers me, is that if I decide to wear certain fashions (miniskirts, high heels, tanks, whathaveyou), my younger SIL (13) decides she can wear the same thing. She uses me as an excuse to do so. To which I have explained to her mother numerous times: I am an adult. I can wear what I so choose (which is most often jeans and a men's undershirt). There's a big difference in a 22 year old deciding to wear a miniskirt in the summer when it's 104 degrees and a 13 year old wearing an even-shorter miniskirt in the fall when it's 40 degrees!


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
I honestly think it is more apropriate for a very young girl to be topless than to be wearing a short halter top that bares her belly. A topless little girl looks like a little girl, a little girl in a short halter top looks like a mini teenager.

Personally, I feel that both should be acceptable. Unfortunately, we get more "looks" from people in public places (particularly indoors-- naked babes seem more accepted at the beach/lake/outdoor parties) and while I shouldn't care about those glances, I also think I probably shouldn't put my young daughter in a position where people are staring at her. And for now, at least in my area, no one bats an eye at her in a short skirt or halter. In the summer, that is.

Unrelated to the above, but still related to this thread...I teach fourth graders at a public school here in CT. I do have one girl in my class who's been wearing spaghetti straps and short-short skirts this winter (not that we've had much of a winter). She happens to have rather serious sensory issues (as well as other challenges in life) and LOVE feeling the cold on her skin, at recess especially. She will not wear a jacket or coat over her sleeveless top as much as I try to encourage it. Other teachers have made remarks about her attire, and even about her parents, "How can they let her out of the house..." "Why would anyone buy a 9 year old those clothes?" Once I explain that her parents feel lucky they are even able to get her to come to school at all, they changee their tune. Maybe most pre-teen girls who dress in "slutty" clothes do so for the attention, or to fit in with their peers, but not all.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Redifer* 

What bothers me, is that if I decide to wear certain fashions (miniskirts, high heels, tanks, whathaveyou), my younger SIL (13) decides she can wear the same thing. She uses me as an excuse to do so. To which I have explained to her mother numerous times: I am an adult. I can wear what I so choose (which is most often jeans and a men's undershirt). There's a big difference in a 22 year old deciding to wear a miniskirt in the summer when it's 104 degrees and a 13 year old wearing an even-shorter miniskirt in the fall when it's 40 degrees!


See this is what makes me so different here...especially in these kinds of conversations. I think that a 13 year old should be able to wear the things she likes to just like a 22 year old should.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 

See this is what makes me so different here...especially in these kinds of conversations. I think that a 13 year old should be able to wear the things she likes to just like a 22 year old should.










The difference being that a 22yo may want the kind of attention that wearing 'adult' clothing often brings, and be better at dealing with it, than a 13 yo would. IMHO.


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 

See this is what makes me so different here...especially in these kinds of conversations. I think that a 13 year old should be able to wear the things she likes to just like a 22 year old should.










do you think a 13 yr. old should be able to decide to wear the low cut jeans and a thong that shows constantly - and shows even more when she's bending over? This is a serious - not smart alecky question.
There are 22 yr. olds that do it and imo it is a form of disrespecting themselves and trying to get attention from males. So, should a 13 yr. old have the freedom to choose to dress that way too? I see teenagers wearing their clothes and showing off thongs like this all the time.

I guess for me 13 is not grown - and they are not earning money to buy clothes and should still be receiving guidance from parents. So - some things are just gonna be off limits. That said - I'm almost 30 and did get to wear short skirts/dresses in high school - they weren't as short as they are now though. I also knew that I loved the attention from boys that I got when I wore that stuff too. I don't think it is just the clothing - it is the clothing and the reasoning for wearing that clothing and the way a person carries herself. I don't think I or most of my friends ever looked like sluts when out and we wore short skirts/dresses/fitted clothing, but we also didn't dance gyrating with guys and just had a different air about ourselves. However, there are some girls that wear stuff and give off vibrations that say easy/available/ready.


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

Exactly, lolaloa. I wear those kinds of things for ME, not to draw attention from random men. Kind of a "taking back my sexuality" type deal. I wear them because, instead of making me "prey", or a visual buffet, I feel empowered, and strong.

However, the reason behind my 13 year SIL is not for those reasons. She wants male, and worse, OLDER male attention. She wants older men to find her "sexy". This, I have a major issue with.


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aywilkes* 
do you think a 13 yr. old should be able to decide to wear the low cut jeans and a thong that shows constantly - and shows even more when she's bending over? This is a serious - not smart alecky question.
There are 22 yr. olds that do it and imo it is a form of disrespecting themselves and trying to get attention from males. So, should a 13 yr. old have the freedom to choose to dress that way too? I see teenagers wearing their clothes and showing off thongs like this all the time.

I guess for me 13 is not grown - and they are not earning money to buy clothes and should still be receiving guidance from parents.

Parental guidance comes in many forms. If a parent (like UnschoolnMa) gives her child the responsibility of choosing what she would like to wear, it is also possible that said parent points out what can happen when her child makes a choice to wear revealing clothing. It is quite likely that a 13 year old _wouldn't_ like attention from adult males. I know that at 13, I would not have. I might have chosen to wear really short skirts and low-cut tops because my friends wore them, or because the windows of my favorite stores displayed them...but NOT because I wanted attention from boys and men. If my parent had "guided" me by pointing out that, hey, when you wear that outfit and walk around town, men are looking at you, I can guarantee I would have thought twice about the outfit! And, in the instance that the young girl thinks she does want male attention, the parent should educate the child about what that entails and to what it may lead. In my opinion, it is irresponsible to assume that children (and _13 years old_ is still a child) can really understand the implications and possible effects of each and every choice we might empower them to make.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teachma* 
In my opinion, it is irresponsible to assume that children (and _13 years old_ is still a child) can really understand the implications and possible effects of each and every choice we might empower them to make.

That's very true. I remember a family friend's daughter on a camping trip. She and her friend, both 13, were inviting these guys to come up to their tent to "have fun". The guys were about 18. I was 21 at the time, and so was another friend we were with. He was adamant that the girls knew what they were doing, and were getting off on the power over the boys. I never did manage to convince him that he was wrong. I think they were enjoying the feeling of "power" - that they could make the boys notice them and all that. But, I also don't think they had any idea that those boys were very likely to take "come have some fun" to mean "you're gonna get lucky". Fortunately, her dad came along and made it clear that the boys were _not_ invited to the tent. I suspect that if he hadn't, those girls would have ended up getting raped. They had _no_ clue what they were setting in motion, but really thought they did.


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

That's exactly the type of scenario I was picturing. So, if you (the plural _you_, anyone out there) *are* inclined to allow your daughter to choose her own clothing, how do you educate her to handle that which might be the result of her choice to expose regions of her body that will appeal to boys and men? I am mostly asking this question because my daughter is only 2.5 now and I choose all of her clothing, but at some point, I would like to grant her a certain degree of autonomy with that choice but also keep her "safe."


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teachma* 
That's exactly the type of scenario I was picturing. So, if you (the plural _you_, anyone out there) *are* inclined to allow your daughter to choose her own clothing, how do you educate her to handle that which might be the result of her choice to expose regions of her body that will appeal to boys and men? I am mostly asking this question because my daughter is only 2.5 now and I choose all of her clothing, but at some point, I would like to grant her a certain degree of autonomy with that choice but also keep her "safe."

I don't have any daughters but between my mom and dad, I have 18 aunts and uncles so I have tons of cousins and I'm one of the oldest. I'm viewed as a "big sister" by many of my girl cousins. I have talked to them mostly about actions/behaviors they choose - as opposed to dress. I just explain to them that although they may not be trying to give off a certain vibe, they need to be aware of how boys/men are perceiving them. Perception is reality for people. I give examples of my own experiences with boys when I was a freshman and they were juniors/seniors and how I was uncomfortable dealing with situations b/c our expectations turned out to be different. I just liked the boy and was willing to kiss (plus maybe a little more) while they were interested in sex. I've had this talk with my sister too. It seems to work well for me because i have a rapport with them as opposed to some of their parents whose solution to "fast girl" behaviors was to enroll them in private Christian schools.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *asherah* 

(on the other hand I just bought him an awesome shirt that says "anarchy in the pre-K" LOL.

OMG, I NEED this shirt!! that is hilarious!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
I have a 13 year old, so a "middle-schooler". We're currently trying to find a dress for her to wear to my dad's wedding. It needs to be fairly dressy (not like a formal, but pretty nice), not white, and not "hoochie". We're also trying to for not-black, because it is traditionally considered verboten for weddings, although I hear that rule is changing so we may go with black, because 80% of the dresses we've found are black. We've been to at least a dozen stores, and have come up with squat, except for some dresses that look like something a 50-year old would wear. I want to find a nice, basic, party dress, where the boobs don't hang out and not slit up to mid thigh. This should not be so hard...

dar

We had the same problem for recent weddings/party for 14 yr old dd. (She is naturally modest). We ended up with a long printed velvet skirt and blouse. Thankfully, ballet flats are in, so we had no problem finding appropriate shoes.

edited for spelling


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aura_Kitten* 
maya that's so true ~~ every "trendy" place i look now all has the "tunic" stuff ... the longer thermals ... and the babydoll dresses covered by sweaters and layered over leggings / "skinny jeans" / etc....


I love that look. My ds's gf dresses like this. It's too adorable. It reminds me of ballet dancers on their way to class. lol (Not anorexic ones, of course. In my fantasies all ballet dancers are eating healthy and enough). My oldest dd is a jeans and hoodie girl, but I love those tunics with the leggings, the skirts with the leg warmers. Sooooo cute.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
The difference being that a 22yo may want the kind of attention that wearing 'adult' clothing often brings, and be better at dealing with it, than a 13 yo would. IMHO.


That's a very good point, I agree. Hopefully it's one that a mindful, involved parent would bring up in discussion. Also a parent could also set an example years before the teen years show up...


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teachma* 
That's exactly the type of scenario I was picturing. So, if you (the plural _you_, anyone out there) *are* inclined to allow your daughter to choose her own clothing, how do you educate her to handle that which might be the result of her choice to expose regions of her body that will appeal to boys and men?

 We talk. _A lot._ We discuss sex, attraction, and how powerful that feeling can be for both people. We discuss what people are going to think about us as a result of our clothing choices. We discuss that NO one has the right to touch her due to her clothing choices. And so on. Talking about scenarios and options and choices is important.

Dd had a situation with a slightly older boy one year while camping. She was 11.5 and he was 13. She developed around 10 and already had breasts, and started to get hips etc. It was summer so she wore a swim suit (modest by comparison to some others), shorts and tank tops etc. He did find her attractive, it was clear, and she thought he was cute as well. It was brand new territory for her. I talked a little bit about what I was seeing with her. She said that she did think he was cute, but that was all. He was older and she felt he was kind of obnoxious. I told her to just remember that she's in control of herself and her body..._she_ made the decisions. He ended up grabbing her butt after making a comment about "that's why you wear those jeans right?" She was angry and scared. We talked a lot after that too, and she learned from the experience. Some parents would say that this is a reason girl's shouldn't wear tight jeans. I say it's a sign we need to do a better job of teaching boys some stuff...









Quote:

I am mostly asking this question because my daughter is only 2.5 now and I choose all of her clothing, but at some point, I would like to grant her a certain degree of autonomy with that choice but also keep her "safe."
It's sure a tough balance sometimes. I understand...


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
He ended up grabbing her butt after making a comment about "that's why you wear those jeans right?" She was angry and scared. We talked a lot after that too, and she learned from the experience. Some parents would say that this is a reason girl's shouldn't wear tight jeans. I say it's a sign we need to do a better job of teaching boys some stuff...









Yes, I agree, that is most definitely a sign that we need to start teaching our boys.

Just a side note, my parents told me the same things you told your daughter, and I plan to tell my child. I had some boy repeatedly snapping my bra and making some very harrassing comments. So one day he snapped my bra and grazed my breast, and I wound up decking him. I felt I had no choice; the school would do nothing about it, even after multiple complaints from both me and my parents. I just finally snapped one day. I somewhat regret it, but somewhat not; because now, after that experience, I have no problem laying someone out should they attempt to touch or force me into something I don't want. That situation snapped me out of "helpless" mode and into "mega-b*tch don't touch me if you want to keep that hand" mode.


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Redifer* 
Yes, I agree, that is most definitely a sign that we need to start teaching our boys.

Just a side note, my parents told me the same things you told your daughter, and I plan to tell my child. I had some boy repeatedly snapping my bra and making some very harrassing comments. So one day he snapped my bra and grazed my breast, and I wound up decking him. I felt I had no choice; the school would do nothing about it, even after multiple complaints from both me and my parents. I just finally snapped one day. I somewhat regret it, but somewhat not; because now, after that experience, I have no problem laying someone out should they attempt to touch or force me into something I don't want. That situation snapped me out of "helpless" mode and into "mega-b*tch don't touch me if you want to keep that hand" mode.

Yeah, our boys definintely have to be taught to respect girls. My DS tickled a little girl under her neck - same age as him - 9. He was told by a teacher that was inappropriate and was saying to me he didn't know that was wrong. I had this long talk with him about how in general you just shouldn't touch girls period. Even though I know he was being innocent and the girl actually wasn't upset about it, it is just safer for all to not touch anybody. The problem with our society is that most boys AREN'T going to have a parent/responsible adult teach them about respecting females and boundaries and things like just b/c a girl is dressed a certain way doesn't mean you have a right to think certain things automatically and definitely never have a right to act disrespectfully. So because we (or you guys for now b/c I don't have a daughter) live in an imperfect, sexist world where the burden is placed more on females to protect themselves and control their behavior, we have to be vigilant with our girls about speaking up and protecting themselves - much like UnschoolMa illustrated in her example.


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
 We talk. _A lot._ We discuss sex, attraction, and how powerful that feeling can be for both people. We discuss what people are going to think about us as a result of our clothing choices. We discuss that NO one has the right to touch her due to her clothing choices. And so on. Talking about scenarios and options and choices is important.




I'm hoping I'll be up to this.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

I think educating our boys is a great idea. I have taught my son from a very young age to respect other people's bodies and boundaries. I think it is so very important. I also think it is very important to teach your daughters to stand up for themselves and not be afraid to tell someone to back off. So many girls worry about offending people or coming off as being "bitchy" that they don't stand up for themselves, I saw it happen dozens of times in my own high school.

When I was younger my mother never talked to me about these things - NEVER. I was not allowed to wear revealing clothing, so I would just wait until she left for work then change into what I really wanted to wear. I was not equipped to handle the attention I received and many older men made advances towards me. I was 13 at the time. I got myself into many dangerous situations because of this, luckily nothing bad ever happened to me. I always wished my mom would have just talked to me about this and told me what to do in these situations, I could have avoided so many of them. I also wished that she told me it was ok to be more assertive when it came to my own body and that it was ok to tell someone to back off.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pyratekk* 
Things like this have been really upsetting to me. I see my 13 year old cousin dressing like well...a "hoochie"...and it just bothers me. She is 13, and wears skirts up to her hoo-ha, and shirts that show her [lack of] cleavage. Then is covered in glitter and makeup. THIRTEEN. I just can't let it go, when I was 13 (which wasn't even really all that long ago - I'll be 21 next month) I never dressed like that. I think the media is really hitting an all time low and our children are there to suck it all in







:

I wanted and did (a little) dress like that. Not due to the media. It was 1982, what media? I didn't watch Charlie's Angels. Did Wonder Woman do it?







Maybe. But I really LOVED the Bionic Woman and she did NOT dress like that.









I wore super cute (so I thought) short shorts and super cute tops (no belly showing). No make up (although I wanted to). While my mother frowned on it, she didn't ban it. I just liked the clothes. I wasn't looking for boys to like me or anything.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
Perhaps it's in the attitude. She's not really been about trying to get "boys" with her clothing choices. Ive never seen her "show off" her body. Ive only seen her experiment with clothing styles she likes that she feels good about. And I know she feels that way because we talk about it.

If you would have asked me then, I would have given you the same answers.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
While it's an issue that concerns me when I see it I don't think that every pre/teen girl that dresses that way, listens to that kind of music, or plays with Bratz & Barbie dolls has "gone wild".























and thank you for pointing that out.

The reason I did stop wearing the clothes, as has already been pointed out, was due to unwanted attention.







:

The neighborhood boys stood in a pack once and pointed at me calling me names (I barely knew them!) They basically called me a tramp. My feelings were hurt. I never did anything remotely close to that. Not kissed a boy or had any attraction to any of them. But I was being judged (harshly) on the way I was dressed.

Some adult men also doing cat calls... that that wasn't as frequent in my quiet, working class neighborhood. That was more of an issue when I wasn't dressed in super short shorts (only in the summer in my immediate neighborhood, where I felt safe). That was an issue when I went into NYC with my mom.

As a result of the above, I withdrew emtionally and wore BAGGY clothes for a long time after that. Very sad IMO. Because it wasn't my choice, it was a defensive measure.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen* 
Look, I hate the message that women (and girls) are only good for sex. But part of how we move beyond that disgusting idea is to stop pasting labels on other women (and girls) who dress in so-called "sexy" clothing. You wear these clothes, you wear those clothes, whatever. Your identity transcends what you wear. Your worth, intelligence, and compasion have nothing to do with what costume you choose to cover up with. I'm not going to perpetuate the sexualization of women by using such terms as "prostitot" and forcing adult interpretations upon childish desires to do what is trendy. I find the term "prostitot" far more apalling than any fashion trend.

Yep.









It would have been SO nice to have an enlightened, progressive mother like Unschoolma to help me through it, "No one has the right to do X (judge, speak rudely or touch you) based on your clothing choices." and so on... but my mother was very "old world" (an immigrant, literally) and of no help.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
I think educating our boys is a great idea. I have taught my son from a very young age to respect other people's bodies and boundaries. I think it is so very important. I also think it is very important to teach your daughters to stand up for themselves and not be afraid to tell someone to back off. So many girls worry about offending people or coming off as being "bitchy" that they don't stand up for themselves, I saw it happen dozens of times in my own high school.

When I was younger my mother never talked to me about these things - NEVER. I was not allowed to wear revealing clothing, so I would just wait until she left for work then change into what I really wanted to wear. I was not equipped to handle the attention I received and many older men made advances towards me. I was 13 at the time. I got myself into many dangerous situations because of this, luckily nothing bad ever happened to me. I always wished my mom would have just talked to me about this and told me what to do in these situations, I could have avoided so many of them. I also wished that she told me it was ok to be more assertive when it came to my own body and that it was ok to tell someone to back off.

So important and bears repeating. (







How do I teach my son NOT to tickle his sister. He doesn't listen. I try and try and keep trying.)

Somewhat







when Madonna came along I was







thrilled. I saw early on that she was using her sexuality as a form of power, which I think our culture needed at the time. A lot of people will disagree, that's fine. I remember Joan Jett saying that in one of her early concerts, she sat on stage strumming a guitar while being spit on (over and over). She didn't get off the stage. For some reason, some boys/men hate women. So Madonna coming along when she did, IMO was powerful.








There is a really great book on this topic that everyone should read:

*The Body Project: An Intimate History of American Girls* by Joan Jacobs Brumberg. It's a fascinating look at how drastically girls have changed (their interests and looks). It goes hand in hand.

http://tinyurl.com/y2bd63


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

I must admit that I cringe a little when I hear the words 'power' and 'sexuality' used in the same sentence. Maybe not as much when used in the context of 'women', but particularly when applied in discussions about young girls.

Our 'contemporary' culture (through media) teaches girls that 'empowerment' derives from an overt display of their sexuality (Think Brittany Spears and Christina Agularia, among others). Pop icons such as these, use their bodies in attempts to challenge traditional notions of women's sexuality. They basically say "hey, I'm a sexy woman, I know I am, therefore you can't objectify me because I already see myself as a sexual being". The problem is that these 'bodies' are typical stereotypes of male desire (slim, blonde, highly sexualized, porn-star looking....kwim?).

So, it makes me nervous to see young women accepting that their 'power' comes from perceiving themselves as sexual objects. I would much rather see a trend of young women developing healthy body images, and rejecting the normalized 'one-size, fits all' version of female sexuality.

And I totally agree that as parents, we ought to be paying closer attention to the messages our young men are receiving about girls/women, and challenging their attitudes and behaviours. Part of me feels that men really need to step up and speak to the younger generation about these issues.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
I must admit that I cringe a little when I hear the words 'power' and 'sexuality' used in the same sentence. Maybe not as much when used in the context of 'women', but particularly when applied in discussions about young girls.

In this current climate, I can see why.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
So, it makes me nervous to see young women accepting that their 'power' comes from perceiving themselves as sexual objects.

Did I give that impression about myself? Because as a teen, I did NOT feel that way about myself after seeing Madonna. I did not rush out and try to dress like her or anything. Or thought to myself "that's the only way to be powerful, influential, successful." I have never used my sexuality to get ahead in life (as if that were the only way to achieve power). Ick. So just because that was "out there" doesn't mean young girls/young women will go that direction.

Young girls might go that direction for any number of reasons... low self esteem (family dynamics waaay before media is introduced) to name one. Or maybe no other interests have been encouraged/cultivated in them (if a young girl is told how "pretty" she is all her life and... that's it... what then?)


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:



Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tanibani* 
Did I give that impression about myself? Because as a teen, I did NOT feel that way about myself after seeing Madonna. I did not rush out and try to dress like her or anything. Or thought to myself "that's the only way to be powerful, influential, successful." I have never used my sexuality to get ahead in life (as if that were the only way to achieve power). Ick. So just because that was "out there" doesn't mean young girls/young women will go that direction.


I grew up during Madonna's heyday too. I remember dancing around to 'Like a Virgin', much to the mortification of my mother! And no, I didn't think that that was the only way to be successful, but she did represent a certain kind of 'power'. However, and maybe this is just my 'grown-up' self talking, but yesterday's Madonna seems tame by comparison to today's icons.

And, you're right, not all girls will be influenced in the same ways by the media's representation(s) of women's sexuality. But, it seems to me that there is an embracing of sex=power by young girls today that didn't exist a generation ago. (Girl's wearing t-shirts emblazoned wiith 'porn star', MILF in training, etc...across their chests).

Quote:

Young girls might go that direction for any number of reasons... low self esteem (family dynamics waaay before media is introduced) to name one. Or maybe no other interests have been encouraged/cultivated in them (if a young girl is told how "pretty" she is all her life and... that's it... what then?)

Yes, this is a good point. It's a difficult terrain for young girls to navigate. I don't know anyone, myself included, who hasn't been affected by 'body image' issues.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pyratekk* 
Things like this have been really upsetting to me. I see my 13 year old cousin dressing like well...a "hoochie"...and it just bothers me. She is 13, and wears skirts up to her hoo-ha, and shirts that show her [lack of] cleavage. Then is covered in glitter and makeup. THIRTEEN. I just can't let it go, when I was 13 (which wasn't even really all that long ago - I'll be 21 next month) I never dressed like that. I think the media is really hitting an all time low and our children are there to suck it all in







:


WHAT is the possible advantage of dressing one's daughter that way? Really, would someone bother to answer this for me? Is it...

a. Vicariously living through one's daughter's youth?
b. A desire to profit from one's daughter's later career as a whore?
c. Desire to be a grandmother at age 30?
d. NO maternal huevos and congenital inability to say the word "no"?

Really, what?


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## DoctorGirlfriend (Dec 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
b. A desire to profit from one's daughter's later career as a whore?

You know, I think this attitude is a problem, too.

A 13-year-old who dresses too maturely for her age is destined to be a whore? Or are miniskirts and low-cut tops inappropriate for any age, so everyone who wears them is dressing like a whore?


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
WHAT is the possible advantage of dressing one's daughter that way? Really, would someone bother to answer this for me? Is it...

a. Vicariously living through one's daughter's youth?
b. A desire to profit from one's daughter's later career as a whore?
c. Desire to be a grandmother at age 30?
d. NO maternal huevos and congenital inability to say the word "no"?

Really, what?

Holy cow.









None of those is the answer I would give, but I suspect you know that already.

I feel that I don't need to say "no". I feel that just saying "No, you are not allowed to wear that." isn't really going to move me and my kid in a positive direction. I'd say a lot of other stuff though.

I think calling someone or deciding that someone will have a career as a "whore" based on her clothes isn't productive either.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
I think calling someone or deciding that someone will have a career as a "whore" based on her clothes isn't productive either. [/COLOR]

I don't think it's productive either. Actually, it's just dismissive of the real issues.

Problem is that sooooooo many people adhere to this kind of thinking, and that is part of what worries me with respect to my own daughter. She's only 7 right now so we are not dealing with clothing issues, but we will be heading down that path soon enough.


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

heres the little promo for the "baby brats" dolls...

Before the Bratz™ were everybody's favorite fashion friends, they were the Baby Girls with a Passion for Fashion™! And these Babyz™ demand to be lookin' good on the street, at the beach, or chillin' in the crib! Check out these funkalish fashions and you'll agree, far-out fashion sense is born in new Bratz Babyz™!


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoctorGirlfriend* 
You know, I think this attitude is a problem, too.

A 13-year-old who dresses too maturely for her age is destined to be a whore? Or are miniskirts and low-cut tops inappropriate for any age, so everyone who wears them is dressing like a whore?


And how would you define it? Seriously, what does it look like to you? Choose any profession you feel is _more_ appropriately indicated by that kind of clothing than the one I've listed.

I honestly feel that this type of clothing on a thirteen-year-old girl (or younger!) is wholly inappropriate and smacks of sexual exploitation, particularly since this clothing is often accompanied by the behavior that goes with it, as the article indicated. I think it encourages girls who are essentially children to see themselves (and have others see them) as sexual objects. In what way is this healthy, much less moral?

More pernicious is the underlying assumption here that we're all supposed to refrain from drawing reasonable conclusions based on reasonable evidence. So sorry to any and all who choose to do this, but I respectfully refuse to participate in a conscious negation of my capacity to think and to judge. I find the notion that we're not supposed to "judge" to be profoundly anti-intellectual and ultimately a misogynistic attitude for women to take toward other women.
Bottom line, if a child dresses in clothing which suggests she is sexually active or (in some cases) sexually promiscuous, it is absurd to make any other conclusion than that she either _is_ sexually promiscuous or wants others to think so. I am eager to hear an alternate explanation.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kewb* 

Sadly, I have friends who allow their dd's do exactly what these girls did in their talent show. When my friends dd was 8 she was enamored with Bratz, had her whole room decorated with Bratz stuff. Her mother would complain about all the stuff. I pointed out that she did not have to buy all the stuff. I was corrected and told that I will see when my dd is older. *sigh* .

Okay, maybe I'm speaking from ignorance because my daughter is only 6, not 8, but it seems to me that you're right and the other mother is wrong. What happened to the word "no"? What happened to the concept that the parent doesn't have to buy something (or, in your example, a great many somethings) she theoretically doesn't agree with? What is the motivation here for buying these things if she doesn't find them appropriate? I just don't understand.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom* 

And where do you draw the line? Her house is a safe haven against the eroticism of girls but what do you do when your daughter is invited to a bratz themed b-day party by her best friend? When another one has a "spa" party w/ full makeovers, mani/pedis, facials and massages? And yet another's father hires a limo (







) to go and see the Cheetah girls? She is feeling the stress of always saying no.:

I'm sorry, but best friend or no, I'd have to put my foot down and weather the storm that followed, explaining that this party was not appropriate for our family. I'm so sorry she has to deal with this. Cheetah girls? I assume those are strippers?


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Individuation* 
(I also only allow "clothing with words" in the house on a case-by-case basis, giving me the opportunity to explain why "New York City Ballet" is OK on a T shirt, but *"I Love Daddy's Credit Card"* is not.)
.


See, as far as I can tell, this is little more than misogynistic propaganda that ends up exposing women and girls as utterly complicit in their own unequal treatment. What else does this say than, "I don't earn my own money. I spend other people's money. I am dependent on men (Daddy) for money." The obvious subtext is that money is being traded for love (in the case of Daddy) or sex.

And just how is trading money for love or sex much different from being a literal whore? I realize some people on here were offended by what I said earlier, but I respectfully refuse to retract it, particularly given evidence such as this.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
Bottom line, if a child dresses in clothing which suggests she is sexually active or (in some cases) sexually promiscuous, it is absurd to make any other conclusion than that she either _is_ sexually promiscuous or wants others to think so. I am eager to hear an alternate explanation.

I'd like to see the intellectual basis for the notion that the clothing a woman wears indicates her level of sexual activity. I would guess that you are making an emotional connection rather than an intellectual one.

On the other hand, if you can provide convincing data that clothes are an accurate predictor of sexual activity, I'd love to see it.


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
And how would you define it? Seriously, what does it look like to you? Choose any profession you feel is _more_ appropriately indicated by that kind of clothing than the one I've listed.

Why would a 13 year old girl's clothing be some kind of predictor of her future career? I haven't ever looked at a buttoned-up teen and thought, "Aahh, future librarian there." If you'd seen the way I dressed as a teen and through college, you would have never guessed I'd turn out to be a public school elementary teacher. I, on the other hand, always intended to acquire said position. Even while wearing short skirts, lots of earrings and very black clothing.


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

Here we go, let's play a game, in regards to this clothing = sexual activity.
Meg, I'd like you to look at this picture, and tell me whether this girl is dressed like a whore.
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...geID=831046554

What about this one, is this "dressed like a whore"?
http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...00653_2123.jpg

I'd honestly like to know your opinion on this. Would you guess this girl is sexually active, or has a history of promiscuity? What do you think her personality is like? Number of lovers she's had? Age of loss of virginity? Average length of relationship?


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen* 
I'd like to see the intellectual basis for the notion that the clothing a woman wears indicates her level of sexual activity. I would guess that you are making an emotional connection rather than an intellectual one.

On the other hand, if you can provide convincing data that clothes are an accurate predictor of sexual activity, I'd love to see it.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen* 
I'd like to see the intellectual basis for the notion that the clothing a woman wears indicates her level of sexual activity. I would guess that you are making an emotional connection rather than an intellectual one.

On the other hand, if you can provide convincing data that clothes are an accurate predictor of sexual activity, I'd love to see it.


I think it's being more than disingenuous to imply that the clothing a woman wears has _no_ relation to her possible level of sexual activity or does _not_ indicate that she wants others to make inferences about her level of sexual activity.

Data? Well, let's take a look at this thread, for starters. Here, I've quoted examples of people equating type of clothing with possible or probable sexual activity (as indicated by words such as "slut" or "prostitute" or "hoochie," each of which connotes a woman who is sexually promiscuous). Please feel free, of course, to ask the original posters to provide additional data.

1. From Merpk's original post quoting the NYT article:

" ... I'm sure that many parents see these routines as healthy fun, an exercise in self-esteem harmlessly heightened by *glitter makeup and teeny skirts*. Our girls are bratz, *not slutz*, they would argue, comfortable in the existence of a distinction. *But my parental brain rebels* ... "

2. From Pyratekk:

Things like this have been really upsetting to me. I see my 13 year old cousin dressing like well*...a "hoochie"*...and it just bothers me. She is 13, and wears *skirts up to her hoo-ha, and shirts that show her [lack of] cleavage. Then is covered in glitter and makeup*.

3. From Kewb:

So disturbing. I don't get the *prostitot* look at all. I don't *wear clothes like that*, why would I want my child to dress like that?

By the way: Props to Kewb for the neologism "prostitot." Is that original with you?? Funny and economical skewering of this trend.

4. From Cappuccinosmom:

All the young girls in our neighborhood *dress like that* too (though, more "slutz" than "bratz"

Okay, shall I quote more, or are four examples sufficient? I was finding examples equating sexual behavior with suggestive clothing on average of every other post.

Moreover, I'd like to look at commonsense reality for a second. One can convince oneself that clothing doesn't matter, that it doesn't necessarily indicate anything at all about a person, that one shouldn't judge a book by its cover (or, in this case, the lack thereof). Enjoy yourself -- it's a free country, thankfully. However, I think this is a kind of willed and dangerous naiveté that depends, often inaccurately, on the often faulty assumption that everyone else thinks the same way.

They don't.

Even in this country -- to say nothing of the rest of the world -- our clothing has a rich tradition of being signifiers of economic status, gender, religion, political affiliation, or (in this case) sexual promiscuity. Oh, sure, you can have a rabid Democrat dress in red-state drag; sure, you can have a rich person dress down in t-shirt and jeans; sure, you can have a virgin dressed like a whore, but one does so at the risk of being greviously misinterpreted by everyone else who believes that people choose their clothing for a reason: to act as a signifier.

The unfortunate reality is that people can't have it both ways: you can't dress as a Republican and have everyone assume you're a Democrat; you can't dress like a poor person and have everyone assume you're rich, and you can't dress like a whore and have everyone assume you're a virgin.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Redifer* 
Here we go, let's play a game, in regards to this clothing = sexual activity.
Meg, I'd like you to look at this picture, and tell me whether this girl is dressed like a whore.
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...geID=831046554

What about this one, is this "dressed like a whore"?
http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...00653_2123.jpg

I'd honestly like to know your opinion on this. Would you guess this girl is sexually active, or has a history of promiscuity? What do you think her personality is like? Number of lovers she's had? Age of loss of virginity? Average length of relationship?


Redifer, I'm guessing that this is either your daughter or someone you're close to. With all due respect, I refuse to engage in what very likely could be taken as a personal attack on someone you love or care about.


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## Maman*Musique (May 13, 2005)

On the subject of toddler mini skirts, all of the skirts I have seen for toddlers are short. It makes sense to me as my 28mo is jumping, running and climbing. They keep her cool in the summer. She has several WAHM skirts that are beautiful and well above her knees. Most dresses are also short. Even Hanna Andersson. I have no problem with it.
I don't intend to control what my children choose to wear. My daughter doesn't yet care so I put her in whatever is most comfortable. I remember cringing when my son would insist on wearing a super hero halloween costume out in public in the middle of the summer. C'est la vie.


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
Redifer, I'm guessing that this is either your daughter or someone you're close to. With all due respect, I refuse to engage in what very likely could be taken as a personal attack on someone you love or care about.


No, that is me. I am an adult, and I fully aware what can be said about my manner of dress. I've heard it all before. But my point is; just BECAUSE culturally, clothing may give someone a certain impression of me, does that mean it is correct not only to continue the practice of instantly judging someone's attire, and then teaching our daughters to do so?

I have never, EVER, judged someone based on the clothes they were wearing. I've been friends with so many random people; homeless men in rags, super-pretty rich girls, gothic men, etc. My parents brought me up that though your brain may immediately conclude something about someone, more than likely that assumption is far from correct.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
I'm sorry, but best friend or no, I'd have to put my foot down and weather the storm that followed, explaining that this party was not appropriate for our family. I'm so sorry she has to deal with this. Cheetah girls? I assume those are strippers?


The Cheetah girls are Disney Channel creations. They are an inter-racial group of girls who want to be singers/dancers. They are teen agers but boys do not really figure into their story much. It is more about having to work together as a group.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
WHAT is the possible advantage of dressing one's daughter that way? Really, would someone bother to answer this for me? Is it...

Dressing one's daughter that way? My mom didn't dress me when I was 13. I had an outfit she liked...button-up plaid shirt, and jeans. Sometimes, I wore cutoffs. I never let mom see it when I wore stockings under the cutoffs, and tied the shirt up under my breasts, with all but one button undone (a la Daisy Duke)...and my pumps. I'm sure people thought I looked "like a whore", but I wasn't really aware of that at the time. I wasn't trying to look as though I was sexually active. I thought I looked good, and I did like catching the eyes of the boys. I really didn't grasp the underlying concepts about looking like I was putting out.

My mom didn't dress me that way. My mom didn't even know that I dressed that way. I didn't feel that it was any of her business.

On the other hand, I knew a girl whose parents tried to control what she wore. She spent her English classes writing pornographic poems, told the rest of us dirty stories, and used to cut class to spend an hour or two with her boyfriend in his van. I don't think she looked like a whore at all...despite the clothes she stashed in her locker. But, she was certainly chasing sex.

Quote:

b. A desire to profit from one's daughter's later career as a whore?
This is vile. I dressed like a "slut" through most of my teens. I did become sexually active (barely) at 15, and got involved in a monogamous relationship at 16. I broke that off after almost nine years of marriage...at almost 32. I then met dh, and we've been monogamous ever since. I don't really care what any other woman does with herself on a sexual level...but I also don't make assumptions about what they're doing, based on their clothes. I had many friends who were far more sexually active than I was, and none of them dressed as much "like a whore" as I did...not even the two who _were_ teenage prostitutes.

Parents have many different reasons for what they do and don't allow. Suggesting that a mom who allows her child to dress in a sexual fashion is doing so with the intent to one day pimp out her offspring is disgusting.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Redifer* 
Here we go, let's play a game, in regards to this clothing = sexual activity.
Meg, I'd like you to look at this picture, and tell me whether this girl is dressed like a whore.
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...geID=831046554

What about this one, is this "dressed like a whore"?
http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...00653_2123.jpg

I'd honestly like to know your opinion on this. Would you guess this girl is sexually active, or has a history of promiscuity? What do you think her personality is like? Number of lovers she's had? Age of loss of virginity? Average length of relationship?


I would have no idea about any of these things from the pictures. It wouldn't even occur to me to think about those things.

She looks like a young adult who is dressed to go dancing. If this is girl is a minor, I would say that she is )as much by the make up (in the second picture) as the dress) giving the impression that she is older than she is.

oh just saw that this is you. I have no idea if this is you as an adult or not.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
I think it encourages girls who are essentially children to see themselves (and have others see them) as sexual objects. In what way is this healthy, much less moral?

This is also slightly off. Maybe a 13-year-oldl is 'essentially' a child, but you can't put their sexuality in a box. I was a C-cup on one side, and a DD on the other, and had my period, and was growing hair...and had a huge sex drive...when I turned 13. Other people slotting me into the 'child' box didn't help me find my way through the struggles of puberty, exploding sex drive, etc. Yes - I mostly had the coping skills of a child...but I had the drives of an adult. I wasn't dressing the way I did because I was being exploited. I dressed the way I did as part of my struggle to cope with my sexuality.

It's sad that anyone would try to predict a pubescent girl's future career, based solely on how she copes with those awkward first years of figuring out her sexual identity and learning to cope with all those feelings.

I never wanted to be, or to appear, promiscuous. I certainly never wanted to be a whore. I wanted to be a marine biologist, then a pilot, the a librarian, then a computer programmer - then a SAHM. I also wanted all those overwhelming urges to just _go away_ until I felt like I could handle them. They didn't, and I did my fumbling best to cope.


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Dressing one's daughter that way? My mom didn't dress me when I was 13.

This. I dressed myself. I still do. My parents just let me run with it. I never went too overboard, but I did dress a bit more.. wildly.. than my other counterparts.

Quote:

I had many friends who were far more sexually active than I was, and none of them dressed as much "like a whore" as I did...
This too. The majority of the girls who were "known" in school and afterwards for being "loose" were very conservatively dressed.

In regards to the photos of myself I posted earlier, this is the reason behind the logic: I do not always dress that way. Mostly I wear jeans and men's undershirts. However, occasionally I do get a hair up my butt to wear "provocative" clothing.

In my life, I have been in two relationships, both lasting longer than 5 years. I have only had two sexual partners. I have never been, nor ever wanted to be, promiscuous. I simply dress according to how I feel that day. In those photos, I felt rockin. I felt strong, and feminine, and incredibly amazing. I see no problem with expressing that through my clothing. The next day, I could be in sweatpants, or wideleg jeans with a spiked collar around my neck. I dress reflecting my mood.

In general, no, I don't really like seeing young girls in certain fashions. But at the same time, I have never once looked at a girl/woman who was dressed in a "sexy" manner and deemed her a slut. I think it's rather presumptuous to believe you can gather all of that personal history and information from something as basic as the way a piece of cloth is gathered and draped on one's body.

I don't believe in teaching my children that judging others based on clothing is appropriate, either. And I really don't appreciate other people's morals regarding fashion and clothing being crammed down my throat. Someone else may think it's slutty or whorish to dress a certain way, and I could give two flying frogs. Just don't presume that I may want to live my life by the same standards or try to impose those ideas onto my children.


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
I would have no idea about any of these things from the pictures. It wouldn't even occur to me to think about those things.

She looks like a young adult who is dressed to go dancing. If this is girl is a minor, I would say that she is )as much by the make up (in the second picture) as the dress) giving the impression that she is older than she is.

oh just saw that this is you. I have no idea if this is you as an adult or not.

Those pictures are of me, taken this summer. I am 22, not a minor. Although when I don't have my face plastered with makeup to go out somewhere special (which is where I was headed, good assumption!), as I never usually wear makeup, I still get carded to buy a lighter!


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Redifer* 
No, that is me. I am an adult, and I fully aware what can be said about my manner of dress. I've heard it all before. But my point is; just BECAUSE culturally, clothing may give someone a certain impression of me, does that mean it is correct not only to continue the practice of instantly judging someone's attire, and then teaching our daughters to do so?

Whew...glad it wasn't your little girl. I looked back later and saw that you were the mom of a 2.5 yo, and unless it had been a looooooong time since you'd updated your siggy, I realized it probably was not her.









The fact is, Red, no matter what I answer to your question, the cultural reality is going to remain the same: people still do and always will instantly judge someone's attire. If I were to walk up to you wearing a Ku Klux Klan hood and a t-shirt that said, "I hate ******s," I have a feeling that your judgment might not be as entirely reserved as you're claiming, am I right? Speaking at least for myself, I'd conclude that either that person was a racist or intended others to perceive him/her as such. Whether or not you do this or agree with it; whether it's right, wrong, or in between, we (the collective, societal "we") realize that _clothing means something_. That's why we (collective, societal "we") find it offensive when the Taliban erases all difference between and among women by forcing them all to wear lookalike burkas; that's why students rebel against the idea of wearing school uniforms; that's why we don't all wear a People's Republic-style equalizing costume/uniform that erases all social difference; that's why we buy designer clothes with the brand names highly visible...and so on and so on. Hey, I don't need to go into more detail about that, do I? We both live here in this society and know what goes on in it.

In any case, you're an adult. You are aware of the cultural judgments, favorable, negative, and neutral, that have been or could be applied to the way you dress, and that's totally your choice: you're doing it with full knowledge of the consequences. Cool.

However, for a child who's young, by which I mean "below 18," just for laughs n' fun, I don't think that they really _do_ understand the full implication of wearing a shirt that says "I love Daddy's credit cards," or "Spoil me," or "I want boyz with bling," or whatever. I don't think they understand the full implication of dressing like Bratz or dancing like Xtina Aguilera used to in her "dirrty" phase. That's part of what I think is so problematic about, to quote the thread, the eroticization of children.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
The Cheetah girls are Disney Channel creations. They are an inter-racial group of girls who want to be singers/dancers. They are teen agers but boys do not really figure into their story much. It is more about having to work together as a group.

Thanks for the clarification -- we have a strip club named Cheetah's in my city and for all I knew, it was a chain, like Chippendale's.


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
Whew...glad it wasn't your little girl. I looked back later and saw that you were the mom of a 2.5 yo, and unless it had been a looooooong time since you'd updated your siggy, I realized it probably was not her.









LOL nope, definitely not her. I'm still having a hard time to get her to wear any clothes at all, matter of fact! Little stink...

Quote:

The fact is, Red, no matter what I answer to your question, the cultural reality is going to remain the same: people still do and always will instantly judge someone's attire.
I can understand this, but my major question is, does that make it correct? Should we, as parents, be working harder on fashion choices for little girls instead of overhauling society's tendency toward instant judgement?

Quote:

If I were to walk up to you wearing a Ku Klux Klan hood and a t-shirt that said, "I hate ******s," I have a feeling that your judgment might not be as entirely reserved as you're claiming, am I right? Speaking at least for myself, I'd conclude that either that person was a racist or intended others to perceive him/her as such.
Actually, I'd probably first assume that you were playing a major prank on me, but that's just me. I could probably gather from that attire that you may be a racist, but in my head, the outcome differs from most. Racist as the outfit may predelict, would that make me not want to talk to you? No. Would that make me talk trash about you to my DH or whomever I was with? No. Would that give me any right to instantaneously think I know your entire personal history? No. All I would gather is that you were making a definite statement that day.

Quote:

In any case, you're an adult. You are aware of the cultural judgments, favorable, negative, and neutral, that have been or could be applied to the way you dress, and that's totally your choice: you're doing it with full knowledge of the consequences. Cool.
True. I fully accept that my clothing choices ranging from day to day are not exactly "kosher" with cultural boundaries. And to be honest, sometimes I dress that way just to tick people off or make them do a double-take. I don't want the attention from men, I like seeing responses from women, actually. I like to see how they react, if they'll talk to me in a checkout lane, if they gossip about me with their company. I can tell you, most everything I ever wear or do in public is almost always because I'm trying to make a statement, or trying to "challenge status quo". Born rebel, I guess









Quote:

However, for a child who's young, by which I mean "below 18," just for laughs n' fun, I don't think that they really _do_ understand the full implication of wearing a shirt that says "I love Daddy's credit cards," or "Spoil me," or "I want boyz with bling," or whatever. I don't think they understand the full implication of dressing like Bratz or dancing like Xtina Aguilera used to in her "dirrty" phase. That's part of what I think is so problematic about, to quote the thread, the eroticization of children.
I think we all agreed, though, that next to none of us agree with those types of slogans on t-shirts. I may enjoy dressing like a tramp somedays, but seeing pants in a size 2T at target with "JailBait" written across the rear make me want to gag. My kiddo may wear skirts or tank tops, but there is a "no writing" clause in my household (I don't do words, period, on any clothes, mine, hers or DH. I'm not a billboard for a corporation, nor do I want my breasts, crotch or rearend to speak).

I honestly don't dig Bratz. Not because of the way the look, but more because of the message they send. They're preoccupied with clothes, boys, and shiny things. Materialistic. There's nothing wrong with LIKING those things, but I don't want the influence on my daughter that those are the ONLY things.

And as far as Xtina (haha, honestly, I hate her music, but I really like her.), no, I don't want my kiddo pole-dancing for a talent show when she's 8. But if she wants to get down and boogie in our house to some "skanky" music, by all means, go for it. I do it (when no one's watching!). I think the biggest thing is to teach our girls when dancing like that may be appropriate: talent show (no) vs. in your bedroom (ok). And to teach them the meaning behind dances like that, the history of the pole dance, etc. The problem is, most parents have a big issue with these things, but don't approach it in the right manner, I think.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Redifer* 
LOL nope, definitely not her. I'm still having a hard time to get her to wear any clothes at all, matter of fact! Little stink...

Ha! My dd is sitting on my lap right now wearing nothing but undies. I see they have the same fashion sense.









Quote:

I can understand this, but my major question is, does that make it correct? Should we, as parents, be working harder on fashion choices for little girls instead of overhauling society's tendency toward instant judgement?
I think instant judgment is pretty much unavoidable as a human tendency -- heck, as an animal tendency -- but I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of being willing to revise judgment based on new information, not disregard it or shape it to fit a pre-existing concept. The other issue here -- and I'm really sorry to sound like a broken record here -- is that _clothing means something_. I think that's honestly why it's a losing (or even a lost) cause to overhaul society's tendency toward instant judgment based on clothing: clothing is one of the first and strongest messages we send out to other people defining who we are.

Quote:

Actually, I'd probably first assume that you were playing a major prank on me, but that's just me. I could probably gather from that attire that you may be a racist, but in my head, the outcome differs from most. Racist as the outfit may predelict, would that make me not want to talk to you? No. Would that make me talk trash about you to my DH or whomever I was with? No. Would that give me any right to instantaneously think I know your entire personal history? No. All I would gather is that you were making a definite statement that day.
I wouldn't think I knew someone's _entire_ history either (heck, I'm lucky if I can claim to know my _own_ entire history...and definitely can't do that before my AM coffee...), but I would think (and I believe most folks would think the same) that either I was a racist or I wanted others to think I was. And the fact that I was making a "definite statement that day" seems to imply that somehow I'd feel radically different tomorrow, right? The thing is, at least in my experience, the racist you meet on Monday is most likely going to be racist on Tuesday too. Hopefully not, sure, but most probably yeah.

Quote:


True. I fully accept that my clothing choices ranging from day to day are not exactly "kosher" with cultural boundaries. And to be honest, sometimes I dress that way just to tick people off or make them do a double-take. I don't want the attention from men, I like seeing responses from women, actually. I like to see how they react, if they'll talk to me in a checkout lane, if they gossip about me with their company. I can tell you, most everything I ever wear or do in public is almost always because I'm trying to make a statement, or trying to "challenge status quo". Born rebel, I guess








Okay, I really swear I'm not saying this to be a jackass, but you know you're basically admitting that your clothing sends a message (e.g., "I dress that way jut to tick people off...to see how [women] react...to make a statement") and that the message you're sending with your clothing that rebels against the unwritten rules of society does, at least in some way, accurately reflect the kind of personality you have, e.g. "I'm trying to make a statement, or trying to 'challenge status quo'...")? I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk in pointing this out.

Quote:

I think we all agreed, though, that next to none of us agree with those types of slogans on t-shirts. I may enjoy dressing like a tramp somedays, but seeing pants in a size 2T at target with "JailBait" written across the rear make me want to gag. My kiddo may wear skirts or tank tops, but there is a "no writing" clause in my household (I don't do words, period, on any clothes, mine, hers or DH. I'm not a billboard for a corporation, nor do I want my breasts, crotch or rearend to speak).
A huge "Yeah, that!" to the above.









Quote:

I honestly don't dig Bratz. Not because of the way the look, but more because of the message they send. They're preoccupied with clothes, boys, and shiny things. Materialistic. There's nothing wrong with LIKING those things, but I don't want the influence on my daughter that those are the ONLY things.
Man, am I gonna get the jerk award for this too...You said you don't dig Bratz "because of the message they send" about being "preoccupied with clothes, boys, and shiny things." Isn't a big part of the message they send communicated through the clothing and makeup they wear? By the way, though, I agree I don't want that kind of influence on my daughter: I want her to see herself as being defined by her intelligence, her good deeds, the actions she takes, not by how she looks or dresses.

Quote:

And as far as Xtina (haha, honestly, I hate her music, but I really like her.), no, I don't want my kiddo pole-dancing for a talent show when she's 8. But if she wants to get down and boogie in our house to some "skanky" music, by all means, go for it. I do it (when no one's watching!). I think the biggest thing is to teach our girls when dancing like that may be appropriate: talent show (no) vs. in your bedroom (ok). And to teach them the meaning behind dances like that, the history of the pole dance, etc. The problem is, most parents have a big issue with these things, but don't approach it in the right manner, I think.
Well, and the thing is, I don't think many parents do take their kids aside and explain _why_ it's okay to get down and boogie in one's house but not in _a talent show. Is it because it's hard to articulate_ how come it's not okay? If so, I do sympathize -- right now, my dd's okay with the explanation that short skirts are not okay because they tend to show one's undies, and undies are supposed to be private property, but dancing is a whole 'nother issue.

Arrgh.







:


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
What happened to the word "no"? What happened to the concept that the parent doesn't have to buy something (or, in your example, a great many somethings) she theoretically doesn't agree with? What is the motivation here for buying these things if she doesn't find them appropriate? I just don't understand.

Well, some parents feel that the child's wants and opinions are valid and to be respected. How each family approaches that will likely be different.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majazama* 
heres the little promo for the "baby brats" dolls...

Before the Bratz™ were everybody's favorite fashion friends, they were the Baby Girls with a Passion for Fashion™! And these Babyz™ demand to be lookin' good on the street, at the beach, or chillin' in the crib! Check out these funkalish fashions and you'll agree, far-out fashion sense is born in new Bratz Babyz™!










 See this description doesn't seem inappropriate to me at all.







We all know that babies don't really care what they are wearing. It's just silliness and fun IMO.


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Redifer* 
Here we go, let's play a game, in regards to this clothing = sexual activity.
Meg, I'd like you to look at this picture, and tell me whether this girl is dressed like a whore.
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...geID=831046554

What about this one, is this "dressed like a whore"?
http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...00653_2123.jpg

I'd honestly like to know your opinion on this. Would you guess this girl is sexually active, or has a history of promiscuity? What do you think her personality is like? Number of lovers she's had? Age of loss of virginity? Average length of relationship?

I know you asked Meg, but I would vote no - these outfits are not whorish at all - or even really suggestive. I would however vote yes if the outfit involved a girl with a white see-through skirt and no underwear or thongs that showed her bottom. Or pants that show the thong string. THAT is out of control - even for adults. I have a girlfriend who had on something like that once and of course all the guys were talking about it. She thought it was cute.


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

these are the worst of them, IMO... http://www.mgae.com/awards/images/_a...baby_bratz.jpg ... look at how the "bratz babys" hips are all jutting forward... makeup on their faces.. they are wearing boy-style *underwear* for gosh sakes!! not even a diaper, and these are supposed to be "babies"? They also carry their bottle *on a chain* (look on the bratz website to see that)

at the bratz website, while the page is loading, it says "Please wait, it takes time to look this good"....







: http://www.bratz.com/

I think that toys like this that a girl play with really effects how she looks at her body and others. the bratz are skinnier than barbies, even, as if that was possible. and their clothes.....

I don't think the people marketing this $hit care at all about anything. they only want to make more $$. They are appealing to this society that has seemingly less and less morals. they are just treading a fine line, and I think they are pushing it.

I hope my daughters never catch onto this craze, but we have many years before that. I filter all their toys already, I don't see why I shouldn't when they start wanting that sort of crap. there are more biologically correct and natural woman-version toys out there. I will not let them have that sort of thing, just because they want it.

***
On topic... I've recently seen many little pants and shorts for toddlers with things written across the bums, and I think that is wrong, no matter what it says. why would you want to attract attention to your kids butt?


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom* 
Actually, I've found our thrift store is the best place to get decent clothing--you just have to find a good one and visit regularly.

If I take my nearly 8 yr old into the department store, it's just torture how much of the girls department I have to steer her away from. So much of it is not only hoochie stuff, but ridiculously expensive. Between Bratz _everything_ and Disney _everything_, it's hard to retain any sense that clothes are just clothes and not billboards. I used to sew all of my own things in high school. I wore nothing that anyone else did. But I did it cause then it was cheaper! I do use it as fodder for discussion, as in, "These pants cost more than the pants I buy for myself. No way." Is that discussion? Perhaps not so much. Haha.

I keep her mostly in gently used stuff, and have developed a keen eye for natural fabrics and "her style." She knows what she likes! I won't let her hooch up the wardrobe, but she HAS tried to get me to let her. She's done dance classes for years, and for the last two, her teacher was a college cheerleader and dance major, and the routines were--too much, really. I didn't like it. I didn't like the teacher referring to the rears as "booties," as in "stick your booties out." But class is not where she learned Beyonce's butt dance. That came from kids at school... and it's not going away. I've tried to talk her out of doing it, but she's a dancer, and she's going to dance the contemporary stuff. Gyrations probably came from dance class, the isolations, the ahh, all that stuff. But she's still just a little innocent girl, sugar and spice, and did you all know that "spice" mean "smart mouth?"

VF


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## kewb (May 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
Okay, maybe I'm speaking from ignorance because my daughter is only 6, not 8, but it seems to me that you're right and the other mother is wrong. What happened to the word "no"? What happened to the concept that the parent doesn't have to buy something (or, in your example, a great many somethings) she theoretically doesn't agree with? What is the motivation here for buying these things if she doesn't find them appropriate? I just don't understand.


In my friends case, I believe she did not say no because then her dd would be different. I do not believe she wanted to have the conversation with her dd about why the Bratz were not appropriate (because everyone else had them so how bad could they be) and it was easier to just give in to her dd's wants. However, I do not know for sure if this was her motivation becasue when I tried to discuss it I was told that "I will see when my dd is older."

Unfortunately, a lot of people have this attitude. My MIL used to give us a lot of flak because we would not get ds a gameboy until he was 8 (all of his friends had one by the age of 5). When he turned 8 I told MIL she could get it for him. Her response to me: Oh, you're finally going to let him be like everyone else. That's good. It's important to a kid that they have what everyone else has. This is also the same women who bought my 4 year old dd an outfit that had Perfect 10 written across the rear. My dd loved that outfit because it was pink. I could not wait for it to disappear. I kept in the house as soemthing she could put on when we were not going anywhere.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

It's interesting how this thread has gone in the direction of clothing choices and has totally avoided the issue of actual behavior choices.

We jut got cable (we didn't have it for a long time but have committed to it for one year for our children to learn the local language. Really, that's the reason.







) So anyway, the children's channel has no commercials at all but it does have constant PSA's about crossing the street safely and the like, and the PSA's are all done in a rock video style with rapping and singing kids, and yeah, the kids are all totally child-like. Baggy jeans and sweaters and totally not relevant to this thread.







But the one adult who is with them singing, the grown-up whose hands the kids hold when they cross the street, is just totally out there. Maybe she's playing to the kids' parents or something, but she's the one in the miniskirts, pouting at the camera, etc., etc. ... until, of course, she has to look all perky and polite and hold the kids' hands when they cross the street.









So anyway, point being, the kids absorb this. This, to them, is what it looks like to be grown up. As is Brittany and all the others of her ilk. This, to them, is what they aspire to behave like.

Am totally not getting the point across well, but the most modestly-dressed covered-up young lady can still act in ways that would just be entirely sexually inappropriate. IYKWIM.

Until two years ago we lived directly across the street from Lincoln Center in NYC, and they would have different shows out on the plaza (you know, the one with the fountain where Bill Murray twirls around at the beginning of "Ghostbusters" ... well anyway), and I will never forget once some grade school had their kids on stage, and these girls were just right out of "Solid Gold" or some such nonsense (show from the '80s where semi-naked women writhed on the floor to pop music







) ... I mean, these were little kids wearing glittering green and gold bikini-type things.

My DS#1 wanted to know why they were dancing in their bathing suits.

And the "moves" they were making were just so inappropriate, so out-there and ... just what were those parents thinking.

Anyway, my point is also that there's a level of interaction that is just an outside limit, IMO, for childlike behavior, before it crosses the line into sexually inappropriate. And a lot of people (on this board, too) will passionately defend the right of young folks to sexually explore ... after all, we all explored when we were young, right? ... but the question is, when this behavior starts happening at 8, 9, 10 years old ... is that behavior normal sexual behavior or is it kind of like global warming ... something that was happening anyway, but what is happening all around those ice caps is just accelerating the process?

Does that make any sense to anyone but me?









Okay, just rambling. Hadn't checked in on this thread in a day or so, was surprised it got so long ...


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *merpk* 
It's interesting how this thread has gone in the direction of clothing choices and has totally avoided the issue of actual behavior choices.

So anyway, point being, the kids absorb this. This, to them, is what it looks like to be grown up. As is Brittany and all the others of her ilk. This, to them, is what they aspire to behave like.

Am totally not getting the point across well, but the most modestly-dressed covered-up young lady can still act in ways that would just be entirely sexually inappropriate. IYKWIM.

Anyway, my point is also that there's a level of interaction that is just an outside limit, IMO, for childlike behavior, before it crosses the line into sexually inappropriate. And a lot of people (on this board, too) will passionately defend the right of young folks to sexually explore ... after all, we all explored when we were young, right? ... but the question is, when this behavior starts happening at 8, 9, 10 years old ... is that behavior normal sexual behavior or is it kind of like global warming ... something that was happening anyway, but what is happening all around those ice caps is just accelerating the process?

It makes sense to me. It's more than just how you dress. It's everything that goes along with it. It's perfectly possible to wear a skirt up to here and a low cut blouse and still not come off as a hoochie mama and vice versa.

Bratz, Barbie, etc. are all about teaching young girls to shop and care about their physical appearance. The physical appearance they're touting of course is an unreachable ideal and it does reak of promiscuity. This is the way you need to dress to be popular and everyone wants to be popular, right? And then throw in the rest of pop culture and voila, society is still propigating the myth that women must be good looking to be popular and successful and it has everything to do with sexuality and very little to with well just being a human being. And boys are trained through popular culture to look at women that way. Boys are trained to just be macho and look upon women as objects. Virgin/whore complex still exists, etc., etc. Frankly it seems like it's gotten worse since I was in college. Now you have CEOs and Hos parties. And guess which is which? The really sad thing is that this is all really only in the pursuit of selling junk. That's it. It's easier to train a younger child to buy into this crap than an older one now. So that's who they're marketing to.

It doesn't mean that our girls should dress in nuns habits b/c then it's buying into this whole thing in another way. We need to be teaching both boys and girls to respect themselves, how to detect crap when it's being marketed to them and that it's not the be all end all to have a boyfriend and girls just aren't objects.

I guess I did need to rant a little.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kewb* 
In my friends case, I believe she did not say no because then her dd would be different. I do not believe she wanted to have the conversation with her dd about why the Bratz were not appropriate (because everyone else had them so how bad could they be) and it was easier to just give in to her dd's wants. However, I do not know for sure if this was her motivation becasue when I tried to discuss it I was told that "I will see when my dd is older."


I realize not everyone can or should homeschool, but man, this is one central reason why we're homeschooling. For so many reasons, I _do_ want my dd "to be different," but I also realize how damned difficult it is to be in the crowd swimming against the current. The only solution I was able to come up with is just never to jump into the current in the first place.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I think it's quite possible to guide your children into being the strong, thinking for themselves kind of people you want them to be even if they are exposed to (or like my kids, play with, Gasp!) Bratz/ Barbies, pop or rap music, and MTV. It has happened with my own children and in other families I know.

I just don't think that girls are doomed to a life of boy toy mentality or a career as a "whore" if they are into these things.


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

I have to agree with Unschoolin. I keep thinking about my IL forbidding TV while dh and his sister were growing up. Now both of them watch a lot of TV. I think I prefer to hope that I can teach dd good values and to respect herself so that regardless of what sort of rebellion she chooses she'll come out the other end just fine.


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
I think it's quite possible to guide your children into being the strong, thinking for themselves kind of people you want them to be even if they are exposed to (or like my kids, play with, Gasp!) Bratz/ Barbies, pop or rap music, and MTV. It has happened with my own children and in other families I know.

I just don't think that girls are doomed to a life of boy toy mentality or a career as a "whore" if they are into these things.









I think I see what you're saying and based on your posts in this thread, it seems like you are having a positive outcome with your daughter despite the other stuff. On the other hand, I strongly believe in garbage in, garbage out and that what you feed your mind gets into your subconscious/psyche. I think it is evident in real life too. For instance, kids that get to watch endless amount of t.v., music videos, listen to trashy music, read magazines that play up sex or sensuality will definitely take in some messages that may not be reflected in their behavior right away. However, if kids get exposed to so much other stuff (positive and non-sexual in nature) and are "hooked" on those things or interested in that and happen to like some of the songs/dolls/etc. AND have a relationship with their parents like the one you described with your daughter, then I think there is less to worry about.

I used to be very crazy-like when it came to my DS listening to trashy music, seeing videos, etc. So unbelievably uptight and scared. Now that he's 9 and loves to read, tap dance, hip hop dance, drum, Capoeira, play the clarinet, and volunteer teach in Ecuador when he's grown, plus and endless amountof other positive interests, loves classical music etc, I've decided that I can lay off a bit. I don't have cable so videos still aren't an option but I won't go crazy if he sees them in the barber shop. there is some music that he has heard from kids at school that is definitely trashy - talking about drinking, drugs, shaking your money maker - instead of getting upset, I've listened to it and explained to him what the words mean and why I don't think he needs to listen to that crap. Rarely, we'll listen to songs together that are just thuggish and glorifying street life and he does this crazy dance they do on the video and we laugh about it but he is not trying to emulate the thugs (which is what used to be my fear). Or, I let him watch some wrestling show with me the other night and we laughed about it. Something else that in the past I was really scared about b/c I didn't want him to be violent. However, I'm only comfortable with this limited exposure because I talk to my son and he has so many other positive interests.
On the other hand, there are some kids in his school that don't have that balance and bring that crap/the dress/attitude/actions to school and it is a real problem.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
I think it's quite possible to guide your children into being the strong, thinking for themselves kind of people you want them to be even if they are exposed to (or like my kids, play with, Gasp!) Bratz/ Barbies, pop or rap music, and MTV. It has happened with my own children and in other families I know.

I just don't think that girls are doomed to a life of boy toy mentality or a career as a "whore" if they are into these things.









I think this is great, IF the parent is mitigating the messages by discussing things with their child as you and many others here do. Unfortunately, this is so often NOT the case, and it perpetuates something that I personally see as a big problem. I wish I knew what a good answer for this was, because while I don't believe in censorship (or whatever the equivalent solution would be for this issue), so many children get inappropriate messages from mainstream media, and don't have anyone around to help them process it, so it becomes their "normal". Sigh.


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

unschoolin'ma~ so do you *buy* that stuff for your kids??? if so... If you understand why some of us are so against these child-sexualizing toys, why support them by giving them your money?

I don't want to be totally uptight about diet/toys/etc.. for my kids, cause I know all about the "rebel-factor"... I feel its a very delicate balance... like when my DD was a baby, I only gave her organic foods, and would only clothe her in natural fibres, but wow, it's an impossible ideal to uphold.

when I was growing up, my mom was totally against barbies, and their ilk, but I got some for my birthday and x-mas, and she wouldn't take them away from me, but told me why she didn't like them... but still, as I grew up, I was horrified as I started getting wide hips, and had compulsive overeating for years during my teenage years. I was starting to not look like barbie (I am a tall blonde) and that made me start to *hate* my body.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

See, I do believe in "censorship" and I'm not at all reluctant about it. I suspect most of you are pro-censorship too, we just draw the lines differently. We could probably all agree that kids shouldn't be given an opportunity to view porn, for instance.

I don't see any reason why I should allow my child to things that I "censor" for myself. I "censor" myself from viewing movies with violent rape scenes. I "censor" myself from watching comedies which play off of racial stereotypes. I "censor" myself from music with lyrics that demean women. I "censor" myself from junk media of all sorts. And yet my Amazon wishlist is long enough I could never buy all of it, I constantly have books and media on hold at the library, and I have a fairly full plate as far as reading and interests go. It's possible to be a full, interesting, busy person without junk media. If I can do it, my kid can do it. And if my life is fuller for it, I hope hers will be too. It's not all negative and saying no to the bad stuff, though. The emphasis is on saying yes to the good stuff.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
See, I do believe in "censorship" and I'm not at all reluctant about it. I suspect most of you are pro-censorship too, we just draw the lines differently.

I see what you're saying....OK, I'm pro-censorship in my own home (inasmuch as deciding what is and is not appropriate for myself and my young children, and passing on my values so that as the age and gain responsibilities they will make choices that somewhat align with what I've taught them), but I'm not for legislating censorship for the general population...more clear? Because, what's offensive to one person is not offensive to another - I can think of lots of stuff that's offensive to my very conservative, very religious in-laws that isn't offensive to me. And I"m pretty dag-blummed conservative when it comes to exposing children to inappropriate sexuality and violence...so, who gets to decide where to draw the line? That's what makes me unomfortable about legislating censorship...but then the other part of me feels like if children's own parents aren't watching out for them, then who will? BUT - I default to no legislation of censorship, because it could get too "big brother" for my own comfort.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Right, I've just found that government censorship gets confounded with other kinds of censorship in these discussions. I don't think that "censoring" what comes into your home necessarily correlates at all with being in favor of government censorship.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Really interesting thread. I don't have any girls, yet, but I have 2 boys & I've been thinking a lot about how to help them grow up to be men who respect women. I hope that hubby & are I setting a good example. but clearly there are other things we need to think about/do to help them.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
so many children get inappropriate messages from mainstream media, and don't have anyone around to help them process it, so it becomes their "normal". Sigh.

I agree that having a caring, mindful parent/someone around to discuss and help navigate these issues is really key.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majazama* 
unschoolin'ma~ so do you *buy* that stuff for your kids??? if so... If you understand why some of us are so against these child-sexualizing toys, why support them by giving them your money?

 I do buy my kids some of that stuff. If by that stuff you mean Bratz and Barbies, some clothes and music. Dd just got a new Bratz doll and the Pussycat Dolls CD for Yule for example. She's been enjoying doing the dolls hair in crazy ways and dancing all over to the CD. We've giggled over some lyrics together.







Buying some of that stuff is not a problem for me.

Quote:

when I was growing up, my mom was totally against barbies, and their ilk, but I got some for my birthday and x-mas, and she wouldn't take them away from me, but told me why she didn't like them... but still, as I grew up, I was horrified as I started getting wide hips, and had compulsive overeating for years during my teenage years. I was starting to not look like barbie (I am a tall blonde) and that made me start to *hate* my body.
 I am so sorry that you struggled that way as a young woman.







It's unfortunate no doubt. My Dd is not perfect or immune from the messages media has regarding weight, sexiness, and etc and I don't think refusing Bratz or Barbie will make her so. In fact, Dd kind of does look like a Barbie. She's leggy (5'3"), slender (100 lbs give or take), blonde, and blue eyed. Well she has black streaks in her hair at the moment, but whatever. She said once that she wasn't worried about wanting to be like a Barbie because who wants to be that short? LOL I think just being able to talk about the issues with the kids is the big thing really. Tricky stuff this parenting business.


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
I agree that having a caring, mindful parent/someone around to discuss and help navigate these issues is really key.










ITA. Even if you forbid the stuff from your home and don't let your dd buy it, you can still have problems if you aren't talking about these issues. It's not the things that are the problem it's the messaging behind it or the marketing whichever you prefer.


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

well, to everyone there own.









I'm not wanting my girls to go through what I did, so, I'm being very cautious in what they are exposed to. That is how I am dealing with it... if some barbies slip in as they get older, I will talk with them about it.

The thing is, at this age (4 and 2) they have no filter for things... so I'm very careful of what they see on t.v.... and they sure know how mommy hates commercials. I mute them every time they come on. those 'seductive' shampoo commercials and such are pretty bad sometimes, IMO. and they don't watch any cartoon channels that have commercials.

What my mom always taught me was how women are/were objectified in the commercial world. I think that helped me to understand ads and such better, with a discriminating eye. I think things would have been even worse had she not said anything about that stuff.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

But with the Bratz doll craze, there comes the Bratz movies and Saturday morning cartoon. There are evil twin girls who get plastic surgery and are silly heads, and an evil magazine editor that they all work for always out to get them. The girls are boy crazy, the boys are like boys--they're in a whole different movie. It's awful... and yet, so true to life for some situations. I put the kibosh on it and told her why. Basically, I said these are ridiculous characters who behave stupidly and that kind of stuff has nothing to do with the life of a seven year old. "Oh yes it does! you don't know Mom."

She wasn't too happy, but, there it is. She's got the dolls... and the Polly Pocket craze, and the Littlest Pet Shop. She's just a kid.

Today she came home and reported that some kids were chasing her, calling her names, in a good way, like "Paris Hilton." Her hair is like Paris': long and blonde. So, gotta be careful not to be too harsh on Paris Hilton, and to explain the relationship between attractive looks and associations to preconceived ideas...and, and, oh my Goddess! She'll be so confused... or no, wait, she'll explain it to me!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Wow, is there seriously a cartoon? I should see if my friend's Dd has it. She's a Bratz collector lol. It sounds like a strange trip.


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