# an epidemic of undiagnosed ND'ed children?



## emma1325 (May 23, 2005)

Do you know many children like this? These are the children I had in my home daycare:

*Children who often flat-out ignore adults and other children when spoken to.

Children who refuse to follow simple instructions.*

*Children who "play" by hitting, pulling hair, biting, pressing their bodies into the personal space of other children, wrestling, punching, spitting, kicking, screaming.*

*Children who stare off into space as though the world around them is much too boring to take notice.*

*Children who seem unable to communicate "normally" rather they whine loudly to ask for what they want, seeming as though they have already anticipated a bad outcome.*

*Children who, rather than use appropriately, stand on, jump on, roll their faces on and lick furniture (such as sofas, chairs, or coffee tables.)*

*Children who seem panicky and unhappy.*

*Children who can't seem to play nicely with other children, EVER, and are involved in CONSTANT conflicts involving screaming and crying.*

*Children who are old enough to follow basic safety rules, but go out of their way to break them when adult eyes are not looking.*

*Children who scream and SCREECH at the top of their lungs when something doesn't exactly go their way. No compromising. Constant misery.*

Wow...you get the idea, right? I'm really not exaggerating.

These are some of the children who live in my area, ages ranging from 4 to 10. I know at least 6 children who have most or all of these issues (4 separate families.) I provided childcare in my home for a little over a year, and have kept about ten children (at different times.)

I worked constantly to provide a calm, comforting atmosphere. We had structure to our days and included story time, music time, artwork/coloring time, outside time, etc. Almost no t.v. I served very healthy lunches and snacks...fruits, veggies, whole grains...lots of clean foods. I had a helper who was very kind to the children and was dedicated and involved.

But these children were way beyond my control. I recently had to give up my childcare business because the constant stress was bringing me to the brink of insanity. Even with the helper, and my husband's help when he came home for lunch every day, the children were unruly and out of control. It was constant chaos. The parents were at a loss as to what to do and expressed concern that these behaviors happened at home as well. (They also seemed to believe that this was just typical child behavior and nothing could be done about it.)

Many of these children attended my church and behaved exactly the same way there. When I quit the childcare, we also stopped attending church because of these same issues.

My own daughter, Emma, is recovering from what I believe to be mild vaccine damage, and struggled with many of these behavioral and sensory issues as a younger toddler. She is much better now, and at age 5 1/2, was having a hard time spending time with these children because the days were full of constant battles. She's become quite a considerate and good-natured playmate and these children were simply not.

What would you make of all of this? Do you get the impression that a lot of this type of behavior is normal and may have just seemed magnified since I dealt with it on a daily basis?

Do you notice many children around you behaving this way? BTW, none of these children have been diagnosed with anything, with the exception of one child (ADHD; medicated.)

My experiences make me feel as though autism and ADHD is actually under-diagnosed rather than over as many people suggest these days.


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## Harmony08 (Feb 4, 2009)

I don't have any answers but have definitely been there done that during my years teaching preschool. The characteristics you listed perfectly describe at least 4 of the children I have had the pleasure to work with. I described my experience with one of them like this... I felt like Frodo in Lord of the Rings. Getting this child to the end of the year was like him getting the ring to Mordor. Every day was a dreaded battle. I feel you. It is awful because all of your time and energy is taken up by these kids and the others just sort of make do on the side lines. Oh, I feel awful just thinking about it.


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## tinyblackdot (Aug 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emma1325* 
Do you know many children like this? These are the children I had in my home daycare:

*Children who often flat-out ignore adults and other children when spoken to.

Children who refuse to follow simple instructions.*

*Children who "play" by hitting, pulling hair, biting, pressing their bodies into the personal space of other children, wrestling, punching, spitting, kicking, screaming.*

*Children who stare off into space as though the world around them is much too boring to take notice.*

*Children who seem unable to communicate "normally" rather they whine loudly to ask for what they want, seeming as though they have already anticipated a bad outcome.*

*Children who, rather than use appropriately, stand on, jump on, roll their faces on and lick furniture (such as sofas, chairs, or coffee tables.)*

*Children who seem panicky and unhappy.*

*Children who can't seem to play nicely with other children, EVER, and are involved in CONSTANT conflicts involving screaming and crying.*

*Children who are old enough to follow basic safety rules, but go out of their way to break them when adult eyes are not looking.*

*Children who scream and SCREECH at the top of their lungs when something doesn't exactly go their way. No compromising. Constant misery.*

Wow...you get the idea, right? I'm really not exaggerating.

These are some of the children who live in my area, ages ranging from 4 to 10. I know at least 6 children who have most or all of these issues (4 separate families.) I provided childcare in my home for a little over a year, and have kept about ten children (at different times.)

I worked constantly to provide a calm, comforting atmosphere. We had structure to our days and included story time, music time, artwork/coloring time, outside time, etc. Almost no t.v. I served very healthy lunches and snacks...fruits, veggies, whole grains...lots of clean foods. I had a helper who was very kind to the children and was dedicated and involved.

But these children were way beyond my control. I recently had to give up my childcare business because the constant stress was bringing me to the brink of insanity. Even with the helper, and my husband's help when he came home for lunch every day, the children were unruly and out of control. It was constant chaos. The parents were at a loss as to what to do and expressed concern that these behaviors happened at home as well. (They also seemed to believe that this was just typical child behavior and nothing could be done about it.)

Many of these children attended my church and behaved exactly the same way there. When I quit the childcare, we also stopped attending church because of these same issues.

My own daughter, Emma, is recovering from what I believe to be mild vaccine damage, and struggled with many of these behavioral and sensory issues as a younger toddler. She is much better now, and at age 5 1/2, was having a hard time spending time with these children because the days were full of constant battles. She's become quite a considerate and good-natured playmate and these children were simply not.

What would you make of all of this? Do you get the impression that a lot of this type of behavior is normal and may have just seemed magnified since I dealt with it on a daily basis?

Do you notice many children around you behaving this way? BTW, none of these children have been diagnosed with anything, with the exception of one child (ADHD; medicated.)

My experiences make me feel as though autism and ADHD is actually under-diagnosed rather than over as many people suggest these days.

What is ND'ed?

I think that those behaviors re pretty typical for children.


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## luvmybabygirls (Dec 13, 2006)

I think it is a lack of parenting! Not yours of course because if the damage is done at home and then reinforced you aren't going to be able to fix it! And if we accept that as normal behavior then we are reinforcing it and it's going to continue. It's not to say that these behaviors aren't something that occur some of the time, but they can be re routed ! I have never had any big problems with this with either of my children and personally children that act that way just simply aren't allowed around my children or me. I think it is disrespectful and I notice more often then not that it's the parents philosopy or lack their of that is the problem. I don't think that anything is under diagnosed, people just need to start parenting a little more attentively. Sorry if this is harsh but I think it's true.

With your own daughter although she might have reacted to a vaccine, did you do anything different with parenting to get her to come around? I would look at that and realize that your children are you responsibility and you can't change others you can only lead by example!







:


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## AutumnMama (Jan 2, 2004)

Honestly, DS1 has some of the issues on your list when he has screen time and if I'm being lazy in my parenting.

I'd be willing to bet that for most of those children it's their home life. Modern life has become so stressful on parents, and that of course translates to their (our) children as well.
Not saying that your daycare parents are terrible, not at all! But how a child is parented, and what they do in their home time can affect their behavior a lot.
Of course there's the possible vax damage, food/chemical sensitivities and allergies, environmental allergies, neural issues, etc etc. to consider too.

Not normal, but somewhat typical these days I'd say.


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## maryeb (Aug 8, 2005)

If ds1 eats ANY kind of refined sugar, he acts just like that. Totally out of control and aggressive. He is not like that normally, he is extremely gentle and wants to be sweet and kind. He is an easy little angel, unless he eats something even as seemingly harmless like whole grain bread. I don't know if it's normal, (the kids you worked with) we don't play with many kids who act like that.


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## emma1325 (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyblackdot* 
What is ND'ed?

I think that those behaviors re pretty typical for children.

neurologically damaged.

And I'm not at a point in which I can agree with you on it being typical behavior. It may be typical when some of the things happen some of the time, but when nearly ALL of the things happen ALL of the time, something's not right.


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## tinyblackdot (Aug 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emma1325* 
neurologically damaged.

And I'm not at a point in which I can agree with you on it being typical behavior. It may be typical when some of the things happen some of the time, but when nearly ALL of the things happen ALL of the time, something's not right.

Oh, thanks!

I agree that things are not right.


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## emma1325 (May 23, 2005)

[
With your own daughter although she might have reacted to a vaccine, did you do anything different with parenting to get her to come around? I would look at that and realize that your children are you responsibility and you can't change others you can only lead by example!







:[/QUOTE]

It seems that she's been outgrowing it for some time now. Her outbursts and aggression, which used to be common, is very rare now. I really haven't changed parenting methods...she just seems to have mellowed out as she's grown.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Wow, you just described my SFIL's nephew exactly...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luvmybabygirls* 
I think it is a lack of parenting! Not yours of course because if the damage is done at home and then reinforced you aren't going to be able to fix it!

I've observed his parents in action and, in his case, I'd have to agree... His mom has said it's a food allergy and undiagnosed ADHD, but they also let him run wild.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AutumnMama* 
Honestly, DS1 has some of the issues on your list when he has screen time and if I'm being lazy in my parenting.

I'd be willing to bet that for most of those children it's their home life. Modern life has become so stressful on parents, and that of course translates to their (our) children as well.
Not saying that your daycare parents are terrible, not at all! But how a child is parented, and what they do in their home time can affect their behavior a lot.
Of course there's the possible vax damage, food/chemical sensitivities and allergies, environmental allergies, neural issues, etc etc. to consider too.

Not normal, but somewhat typical these days I'd say.

With the little boy I know he's ADDICTED to TV and video games. If he's playing is DS it's with the TV on cartoons. When he gets tired of that it's time to play Wii... I've never seen him pick up a book or anything like that. (He's around 3) I disagree with his mom that he's ADHD or ADD because he is able to sit and focus on his video games and TV shows just fine. But if you try to break that concentration he'll ignore you until you touch him or get close to him physically and then he'll get violent.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

As I see it:

*Children who often flat-out ignore adults and other children when spoken to.*
Within the range of normal. Even my totally laid-back, eager to please, neurotypical son will often appear to be flat-out ignoring people. He's really imaginative and often in his own world, thinking. He is more on the "less attentive" side of normal, but definitely would not meet criteria to be diagnosed with any sort of cognitive or emotional disorder. My 5 year old is very, very shy and will often appear to be flat-out ignoring people-we're working on helping her develop skills and learn to cope with being shy in more socially acceptable ways, but it takes time (and most people don't see the work we do or know she's shy, and might think we're just letting her be rude).

*Children who refuse to follow simple instructions.*
Again, I would typically see that as being within the range of normal. Some kids are less inclined to follow instructions than others (very strong-willed kids or very inflexible kids), and the younger the child the more normal this would seem to me. I think whether or not it's considered normal depends not only on frequency, but on age and severity of impact on the child's and family's functioning.

*Children who "play" by hitting, pulling hair, biting, pressing their bodies into the personal space of other children, wrestling, punching, spitting, kicking, screaming.*
This, well, I think it can be within the realm of "typical." Kids can pick up a lot of aggressive play through media. Also, children (particularly preschoolers and toddlers) who have not yet mastered good social skills may do this. And some kids can be temperamentally sensory-seeking, leading to these kinds of behavior, without having a disorder.

*Children who stare off into space as though the world around them is much too boring to take notice.*
I would be inclined to assume the child is imaginative or thinking. Or simply tired and "zoning out." Many kids don't get enough sleep (which can, incidentally, lead to behavior problems).

*Children who seem unable to communicate "normally" rather they whine loudly to ask for what they want, seeming as though they have already anticipated a bad outcome.*
Again, ime this is pretty normal/typical. Haven't met a parent yet who didn't complain about how much one of their kids whines. My son is not a whiner. My daughters are. They're raised the same, in the same household, so I attribute it to temperament. And it persists, despite diligent, involved parenting. IMO, kids just whine and some whine more than others.

*Children who, rather than use appropriately, stand on, jump on, roll their faces on and lick furniture (such as sofas, chairs, or coffee tables.)*
I see this as normal/typical too, especially when kids aren't getting enough outside time, or if they are temperamentally very energetic and/or sensory seeking. And really, I remember it being so fun to play on furniture. Especially playing hot lava, where the floor was lava so we had to walk on furniture only. Mom probably didn't like it so much.

*Children who seem panicky and unhappy.*
Well, this is kind of subjective, isn't it? If you have a pretty mellow kid, kids who are more sensitive, emotional, and easily upset may look panicky and unhappy. Some of these kids may really be panicky and unhappy a lot of the time, but some of them may just be emotionally intense kids.

*Children who can't seem to play nicely with other children, EVER, and are involved in CONSTANT conflicts involving screaming and crying.*
Again, this could be indicative of problems, or could be an indicator that the child has not yet mastered the needed social skills. Each child develops at a different rate, and for some kids these skills come easily and for some they don't.

*Children who are old enough to follow basic safety rules, but go out of their way to break them when adult eyes are not looking.*
Many children like to experiment, and like to assert their autonomy. I wouldn't consider this abnormal by itself, probably-though in combination with other problems, it could indicate .

*Children who scream and SCREECH at the top of their lungs when something doesn't exactly go their way. No compromising. Constant misery.*
Again, it could indicate a problem (neurological, otherwise physical, or familial) or it could indicate that a child is simply temperamentally intense.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emma1325* 
My own daughter, Emma, is recovering from what I believe to be mild vaccine damage, and struggled with many of these behavioral and sensory issues as a younger toddler. She is much better now, and at age 5 1/2, was having a hard time spending time with these children because the days were full of constant battles. She's become quite a considerate and good-natured playmate and these children were simply not.

And I think those behaviors are totally normal for a toddler, and that it's just as likely that your daughter was not damaged by vaccines and simply grew out of normal toddler behavior as she matured.

My point is, there are a lot of reasons why children might engage in behavior like this. And even if I might agree that it might not be normal if _all_ the things you listed happen _most_ of the time, there could be many reasons for it. And for each child (or family), the reason or reasons might be different. And none of us can know those reasons, because we're not living with those families.


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## AngieB (Oct 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
Wow, you just described my SFIL's nephew exactly...

I've observed his parents in action and, in his case, I'd have to agree... His mom has said it's a food allergy and undiagnosed ADHD, but they also let him run wild.

With the little boy I know he's ADDICTED to TV and video games. If he's playing is DS it's with the TV on cartoons. When he gets tired of that it's time to play Wii... I've never seen him pick up a book or anything like that. (He's around 3) I disagree with his mom that he's ADHD or ADD because he is able to sit and focus on his video games and TV shows just fine. But if you try to break that concentration he'll ignore you until you touch him or get close to him physically and then he'll get violent.


Children with ADHD can become hyper focused on things that they care about and also they can become very attached to video games because the are a controlled activity that always have the same results and this is very comforting to children who feel so out of control in their own bodies.


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## Murihiku (Oct 2, 2008)

My son is nearly six and is Neurotypical so I was curious to see how he measures up to these:

Children who often flat-out ignore adults and other children when spoken to.

He's done this fairly often, because he's day-dreaming.

Children who refuse to follow simple instructions.

He does this occasionally, often because he's daydreaming.

Children who "play" by hitting, pulling hair, biting, pressing their bodies into the personal space of other children, wrestling, punching, spitting, kicking, screaming.

He's never done this.

Children who stare off into space as though the world around them is much too boring to take notice.

He does stare into space sometimes but not necessarily because he's bored by the world around him. _I_ often stare off into space when I'm relaxed or thinking. Or daydreaming.

Children who seem unable to communicate "normally" rather they whine loudly to ask for what they want, seeming as though they have already anticipated a bad outcome.

He does this sometimes. He went through quite the whining phase when he was three.

Children who, rather than use appropriately, stand on, jump on, roll their faces on and lick furniture (such as sofas, chairs, or coffee tables.)

Come on! Show me the child who doesn't do this from time to time!









Children who seem panicky and unhappy.

Sometimes he is panicky and unhappy. Usually when he's panicky or unhappy.

Children who can't seem to play nicely with other children, EVER, and are involved in CONSTANT conflicts involving screaming and crying.

He usually plays nicely with other children and certainly it's improved with age.

Children who are old enough to follow basic safety rules, but go out of their way to break them when adult eyes are not looking.

I've never seen this in him. I've seen it in lots of heroes of classic children's literature though.

Children who scream and SCREECH at the top of their lungs when something doesn't exactly go their way. No compromising. Constant misery.

No, that's not him. I mean it's happened, but "constant"? No.

It seems as if these behaviours are signs of something off if they are _frequent_--if _occasional_ they sound like normal child behaviour.

The list _does_ remind me of my best friend's very intelligent son, but he only shows these behaviours around her, not with his babysitters or teachers. Poor you, having to deal with them all the time!


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

Children who scream and SCREECH at the top of their lungs when something doesn't exactly go their way. No compromising. Constant misery.

Hmmm...my DS does this a lot, but he is a very intense kid. he doesn't do a lot of the other things on your list, though. Maybe you had an unlucky streak and got four very intense kids in your daycare at once, or maybe there really is something else going on. Hard to tell. Good luck figuring it out!


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## emma1325 (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *labdogs42* 
Children who scream and SCREECH at the top of their lungs when something doesn't exactly go their way. No compromising. Constant misery.

Hmmm...my DS does this a lot, but he is a very intense kid. he doesn't do a lot of the other things on your list, though. Maybe you had an unlucky streak and got four very intense kids in your daycare at once, or maybe there really is something else going on. Hard to tell. Good luck figuring it out!

I'm done trying to figure it out, lol. This post was kind of a final vent for me. Dealing with these kinds of issues constantly really took a lot out of me. I shouldn't have let it go on for as long as I did, but I really thought that with persistence and consistency the situation would improve. It didn't. At all.

But I'm done and that's that. I feel awful for the parents who have to deal with those kids on a daily basis, and for the whichever daycare or school they will end up at next.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emma1325* 
I feel awful for the parents who have to deal with those kids on a daily basis, and for the whichever daycare or school they will end up at next.

I am sorry you had a hard time. I know it's tough to deal with a lot of those behaviors, particularly if you aren't prepared to handle them and don't know how to respond most effectively for each child. What saddens me is when people say things like you said in this quote, about kids who are genuinely struggling. Whatever the reasons for their behavior may be, those kids would, I guarantee you, prefer to be getting along better with their families and with the other people in their lives who provide care for them. How bad must it feel to not get along with anyone? To have caregivers feeling so frustrated with you so often, and to have caregivers feeling negative toward you? (And yes, I know there were negative feelings, b/c I am the parent of a very challenging child like this whom I love more than life (who is neurologically different, but not damaged), and I sometimes have trouble feeling positive toward her. I know it would be much harder to feel positive toward a child with these issues who is not my own.) These kids need support and loving guidance, not disdain. The parents need your support, not your pity. I don't need people to feel awful for me because my kid is so challenging (I would find that insulting), I need their understanding (that it is hard, that I'm doing the best I can, that I do worry, that my kid is not a bad kid but a kid who faces a number of challenges and does her best) and their support and encouragement. Compassion is a wonderful thing, for both parents and kids.


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## FullMetalMom (Aug 27, 2008)

I have to say that I exhibited many of those traits when I was a child, I believe not because I was nd'ed but because I was angry I did not have consistent caregiving from my parents for most of my childhood. I was in daycare from the time I was 1 year old to 13 and I was a very angry child. If parent who have their kids in daycare all week do not really step up during the off hours, a child can really feel abandoned and uncared for (no matter how good the dcp is). Some people underestimate how much a child REALLY needs to attach to someone and needs to be given a sense of worth. Just my







:. My experience is one of the reasons I am dedicated to ap and have chosen to be a SAHM.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Murihiku* 

The list _does_ remind me of my best friend's very intelligent son, but he only shows these behaviours around her, not with his babysitters or teachers. Poor you, having to deal with them all the time!










my daughter does these things at home, but apparently she's extremely well behaved with her teachers


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## emma1325 (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Magella* 
The parents need your support, not your pity. I don't need people to feel awful for me because my kid is so challenging (I would find that insulting), I need their understanding (that it is hard, that I'm doing the best I can, that I do worry, that my kid is not a bad kid but a kid who faces a number of challenges and does her best) and their support and encouragement. Compassion is a wonderful thing, for both parents and kids.


Feeling awful is not the same as having pity. I'm sorry you feel insulted by my feelings; however, they are my feelings and I do not feel the need to defend them.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

when I first read your post I thought "yeah I've seen those kids, we call them brats in the midwest"

I understand that these children may have undiagnosed problems, but many more of these children are under stimulated (play, education, human contact) or have poor parenting.

I feel like we are putting labels of 'ND' AD(H)D, high function autism on children that aren't. I work in a video game store and see many many many pre-teens kill about 3 sodas and 2 candy bars in an hour and when I peel them off the walls and tell them to ease up off the sugar because I can't peel people from the ceiling, they tell me "Its not the sugar I have ADHD"







sugar doesn't help sweetie. KWIM?

I'm all for identifying social or developmental hurdles in children, but sometimes there isn't a problem, or the problem lies with the parents, friends, community, media whatever. Most of these kids need a mentor and a healthy environment, not a vax or heavy metal to point a finger at.

I'm probably totally out of line, and if I am (gently







) put me back. I really am here to learn! I've lived on a farm my entire life, we don't have time to stare off into space, and no one gives a rats behind if you screech, we just put you outside to screech, and if you lick the furniture, you'll get a splinter in your tongue and no one will stop you.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kriket* 
and no one gives a rats behind if you screech, we just put you outside to screech, and if you lick the furniture, you'll get a splinter in your tongue and no one will stop you.


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## emma1325 (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kriket* 
when I first read your post I thought "yeah I've seen those kids, we call them brats in the midwest"

I understand that these children may have undiagnosed problems, but many more of these children are under stimulated (play, education, human contact) or have poor parenting.

I feel like we are putting labels of 'ND' AD(H)D, high function autism on children that aren't. I work in a video game store and see many many many pre-teens kill about 3 sodas and 2 candy bars in an hour and when I peel them off the walls and tell them to ease up off the sugar because I can't peel people from the ceiling, they tell me "Its not the sugar I have ADHD"







sugar doesn't help sweetie. KWIM?

I'm all for identifying social or developmental hurdles in children, but sometimes there isn't a problem, or the problem lies with the parents, friends, community, media whatever. Most of these kids need a mentor and a healthy environment, not a vax or heavy metal to point a finger at.

I'm probably totally out of line, and if I am (gently







) put me back. I really am here to learn! I've lived on a farm my entire life, we don't have time to stare off into space, and no one gives a rats behind if you screech, we just put you outside to screech, and if you lick the furniture, you'll get a splinter in your tongue and no one will stop you.


You're certainly not out of line, and neither is anyone else who disagreed with my views here. Perhaps I didn't explain my views fully...in fact there's no perhaps about it.

It really isn't that I want all these children that I've encountered to be labeled (and then medicated)...it's more that I feel that all of these children are experiencing very real problems that are not being addressed. I am in complete agreement with you that many factors are in play here as to why these children are experiencing such issues.

It baffles me as to how so many children around me can be exhibiting such similar chronic issues.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

I would be more inclined to guess it was because of less involved/engaging parenting.... Plenty of children get their vaccines on schedule but not all act like that.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Do you have only a girl? Because a lot of the behaviors you describe are more common among boys. And I wouldn't consider a lot of them to be misbehaving, either. My parents have just the two girls (me and my sister) and no sons, and they were a little rattled by DS's behavior until I reminded them, "Weren't your younger brothers just like him?" Especially the furniture and rough-housing.

As far as panicky and unhappy, that can happen with quiet and loud kids alike, it's just more visible with the loud ones. I think that's the main thing that clearly would need addressing here.


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## midnightmommy (Apr 14, 2008)

I understand where your coming from. I watch a little boy and he does all of those things. Some days I just want to cry. My son did this stuff on occasion, but not every hour of every day. It's like talking to a brick wall most days. It's really hard to connect when you are talking to them and they never make personal contact. I do mean never. I can talk with the little boy I watch until I'm blue in the face and he doesn't respond. What's worse is that when it's not your child you have no control over the food they eat, how much sleep they get, how they are disciplined at home, or really anything that doesn't happen when they aren't with you. Honestly, I don't blame you for getting out of childcare. I will never do it again. In fact I'm hoping to get out of it entirely after this summer.


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## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

those things don't sound normal to me at all. non of the kids we hang around with do those things on a regular basis.

obviously every kids has bad days when they have a hard time being around other kids but to behave like that on a consistent basis doesn't seem normal to me at all.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emma1325* 
neurologically damaged.

And I'm not at a point in which I can agree with you on it being typical behavior. It may be typical when some of the things happen some of the time, but when nearly ALL of the things happen ALL of the time, something's not right.

I agree with you, as the mother of three, none of whom engag(ed) in those behaviors, I can't say they are normal, common maybe, but not normal behaviors for attached, unstressed children, but they are indicative of dis-regulated children.


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## Sasharna (Nov 19, 2008)

I'm getting kind of concerned that what's being implied by some people in this thread is the old "refrigerator mother" theory about autism (saying that the kids act this way because they are "unattached" or "neglected" or because of "poor parenting"). I am sure that our MDC mothers who have children on the spectrum would not agree.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emma1325* 
*Children who often flat-out ignore adults and other children when spoken to.

Children who refuse to follow simple instructions.*

*Children who "play" by hitting, pulling hair, biting, pressing their bodies into the personal space of other children, wrestling, punching, spitting, kicking, screaming.*

<snip>

*Children who seem unable to communicate "normally" rather they whine loudly to ask for what they want, seeming as though they have already anticipated a bad outcome.*

*Children who, rather than use appropriately, stand on, jump on, roll their faces on and lick furniture (such as sofas, chairs, or coffee tables.)*

*Children who seem panicky and unhappy.*

*Children who can't seem to play nicely with other children, EVER, and are involved in CONSTANT conflicts involving screaming and crying.*

<snip>

*Children who scream and SCREECH at the top of their lungs when something doesn't exactly go their way. No compromising. Constant misery.*

I took out a couple. The rest of these apply very frequently to dd, ds2 or both.

I was under more stress in almost every respect when ds1 was a baby, and therefore less attentive than I'd have preferred. His home life _sucked_, especially when I wasn't home. (My ex, more than once, "forgot" to feed him). He was also fully vaccinated (although the schedule was less intensive then). He also watched far more tv than dd and ds2 do, as my ex was the "tv on 24/7" type. He wasn't like this at all, except for climbing on furniture, but that was okay in our house - I frequently sat on the coffee table, for instance.

So, I don't know what it is, or what causes it, but it doesn't seem particularly out there to me. At _least_ half the kids I know who aren't like this are...kind of odd, honestly. They just seem really tuned out - and I know that at least two of them have been neglected pretty badly.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

some of it could be normal and some of it may be ND. It MIGHT be "lazy parenting" or whatever, but what that doesn't explain is how a person can have 1 child who works that way, and 3 other children (same parents, same upbringing) who don't do those things. I am sure along the way people have wanted to blame my parenting for my son, but I know from DD that its not "me" and thankfully from the professionals who knows what they are talking about and reassured me that some of these things are out of my son's control. In fact, at times you can see him trying with all his might to control himself, but sometimes failing. but boy does he try in a way I don't think many people would wth emotions running high like his do, with his sensory issues and language delays.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kriket* 
when I first read your post I thought "yeah I've seen those kids, we call them brats in the midwest"

I understand that these children may have undiagnosed problems, but many more of these children are under stimulated (play, education, human contact) or have poor parenting.

I feel like we are putting labels of 'ND' AD(H)D, high function autism on children that aren't. I work in a video game store and see many many many pre-teens kill about 3 sodas and 2 candy bars in an hour and when I peel them off the walls and tell them to ease up off the sugar because I can't peel people from the ceiling, they tell me "Its not the sugar I have ADHD"








sugar doesn't help sweetie. KWIM?

I'm all for identifying social or developmental hurdles in children, but sometimes there isn't a problem, or the problem lies with the parents, friends, community, media whatever. Most of these kids need a mentor and a healthy environment, not a vax or heavy metal to point a finger at.

I'm probably totally out of line, and if I am (gently







) put me back. I really am here to learn! I've lived on a farm my entire life, we don't have time to stare off into space, and no one gives a rats behind if you screech, we just put you outside to screech, and if you lick the furniture, you'll get a splinter in your tongue and no one will stop you.

I think I like you


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

I have a lot of thoughts...

Quote:

I agree with you, as the mother of three, none of whom engag(ed) in those behaviors, I can't say they are normal, common maybe, but not normal behaviors for attached, unstressed children, but they are indicative of dis-regulated children.
I agree with this. I only have my son, however I have many 'mainstream' friends and a good handful of 'ap-ish' friends. The difference is very clear to me when I go to a local baby/toddler group and when I got to a home education group. So in one hand, I would like to say that a lot of that behaviour, that is indeed _common_, is probably down to parenting/environment/lets not point the finger elsewere and blame only ourselves/etc.... But then perhaps its also about perspective and whos doing the perspective...
I have no official DX for my son. I know he was damaged by vaccines, I saw it happen. He has sensory issues we deal with on a daily basis and I would maybe put him somewhere on the spectrum. In one hand - why lable and are we over-lableing? I dont look at my son and think 'he has SPD/PDD-NOS'...I look at him and think 'hes sensitive, this loud noise is bother him - hence his behaviour/etc'. But, unfortunatly, lables are there for many good reasons... someone else might look at my son (and do - I have friends who do and say so) and think 'hes naughty - hes got mummy wrapped around his little finger - (I mean heaven forbid I consider his feelings and sacrafice a bit/compromise for us all - Like I might avoid loud and busy places because I know its distressing for him but that just somehow means he manipulative according to others :rollseyes) - hes just a boy that is allowed to run wild, needs some punishment, a good spanking, its the 'parenting' not the vax, not this not that. Its a good thing he has me as his mummy who is trying to raise him in a respectful consensual way with an open mind so I can see his 'special' needs. I hate that people think its 'me' that causes my sons behavour. And hes not even off the wall. Most people usually comment on how well behaved he is, etc...But he is _very_ sensitive to most things people wouldn't notice otherwise so when he does get overwhelmed their attitude is usually very different towards us. Having a 'label' might help there but so far I feel okay enough in ourselves without one.
So its both for me really (thinking its parenting/evironment and also undiagnosed ND)... I cant really look at a child and think 'perhaps they have a special need' as I am not an expert and I only really _know_ my own child. However, I am pretty good at watching and listening to a child and can usually work things out (with them). There is one child I know that is so off the wall I would probably say I feel confident he does have ADHD. And if the reasearch is correct...the cause _is_ the parents, from things like CIO that was done on him, crappy diet, only negative attention, etc. Would his 'ADHD' 'go away' if all this stuff was changed - maybe, maybe not. From what I have read, CIO is enough to have done the damage. (which I feel is a pretty common parenting technique in our society - hence such behaviours being common)


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## cahwilson (Jan 24, 2007)

Just to jump in here with my perspective...I don't think you can say one thing affects all kids. Autism, vax damage, leaky gut, etc confuses the hell out of me. All I know is my dd was damaged by vaccines and had mulitple rounds of antibiotics at the same time. We dealt with many of the issues the op described in the first post. In my opinion she is not/was not autistic b/c she had medical issues that affected behavoir/tempermant. We have done lots of gut healing and taken out foods she is intolerant too, and lo and behold I have a much easier kid on my hands. I always told dh it can't just be her b/c I shouldn't feel that depressed and overwhelmed at the end of everyday.







Recently she had a yeast flare up and again the behavoir/mood went down hill.

What hurt was the stares I got in public and the judgement that I was a bad parent. From my parents, from strangers, heck even my own dh implied that maybe she needed more "discipline." No one believed the issues that were going on. They thought I was looking for a scape goat. It hurt when my dd would look into my eyes screaming and I knew she didn't know why she felt so terrible or why she was acting like that. Now that she _feels_ better, life is much easier with her. So I don't really now what my point is







, but I do think that diet, food allergy, yeast, vaccines, antibiotics, etc can and do affect behavoir, not just parenting.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

that was well put ann, I always enjoy reading your posts. It's not you girl. my parents though it was me with my son and thought spanking would cure his autism - yeah right - but the fact is all the "professionals" who deal with him say I am doing everything right and that they wish more parents they worked with would do the same things. his teacher says she handles him at school the same way I do at home. they say he is doing better then most kids in his shoes would be. and then I have a totally normal toddler too.. its not always the parenting - I can see that sometimes it is, but instead of always assuming the child in the store is having a tantrum over a candy bar consider maybe its the bright lights, loud noises, something brushed up against their arm etc. its not always bad parenting. and spankings would not have fixed my son. in fact, what has hepled him most is a MORE gentle approach.

ITA with you as well Ashley







it does feel good once you can figure out more of whats going on and address it and see changes - then peopole back off a little bit. It's funny even with my sons "behavioral issues" in many areas he does better then "typical" children. when my parents used to imply he needed more discipline I used to think - you know, no child is going to be a perfect angel, but they really had no room to give me parenting advice, my kids were much better behaved without being hit as toddlers then their kids were (I watched half sis and half bro grow up because of a huge age difference)


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## emma1325 (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cahwilson* 
Just to jump in here with my perspective...I don't think you can say one thing affects all kids. Autism, vax damage, leaky gut, etc confuses the hell out of me. All I know is my dd was damaged by vaccines and had mulitple rounds of antibiotics at the same time. We dealt with many of the issues the op described in the first post. In my opinion she is not/was not autistic b/c she had medical issues that affected behavoir/tempermant. We have done lots of gut healing and taken out foods she is intolerant too, and lo and behold I have a much easier kid on my hands. I always told dh it can't just be her b/c I shouldn't feel suicidal at the end of everyday.







Recently she had a yeast flare up and again the behavoir/mood went down hill.

What hurt was the stares I got in public and the judgement that I was a bad parent. From my parents, from strangers, heck even my own dh implied that maybe she needed more "discipline." No one believed the issues that were going on. They thought I was looking for a scape goat. It hurt when my dd would look into my eyes screaming and I knew she didn't know why she felt so terrible or why she was acting like that. Now that she _feels_ better, life is much easier with her. So I don't really now what my point is







, but I do think that diet, food allergy, yeast, vaccines, antibiotics, etc can and do affect behavoir, not just parenting.


I could so relate to your post here. I went through such a similar experience with my Emma (we still struggle with these issues, but it's gotten much better.)

But to see these issues that I worked hard to overcome in my daughter repeated in so many children was very tough. Dealing with children who displayed such aggression and hyperactivity was emotionally and psychologically draining to me. There weren't many days that went by that I didn't get my ear screamed directly into.

I felt like these children not only had NO sense of personal boundries whatsoever, but they were constantly searching for ways to invade someone else's personal space in an aggressive, hostile, obnoxious manner. It was ridiculously stressful, and my nerves have been shot. I think it will take me a long time to get over the resentment I feel toward the situation I had myself in with those children.


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## AngieB (Oct 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
some of it could be normal and some of it may be ND. It MIGHT be "lazy parenting" or whatever, but what that doesn't explain is how a person can have 1 child who works that way, and 3 other children (same parents, same upbringing) who don't do those things. I am sure along the way people have wanted to blame my parenting for my son, but I know from DD that its not "me" and thankfully from the professionals who knows what they are talking about and reassured me that some of these things are out of my son's control. In fact, at times you can see him trying with all his might to control himself, but sometimes failing. but boy does he try in a way I don't think many people would wth emotions running high like his do, with his sensory issues and language delays.

I've felt this way so often. I get really sick of people implying that ds acts this way because I'm a bad parent (I've had people say this to me







) But then I look at my 3 girls who all act "normal" and think then why are they ok if I'm such a bad parent? I also wish people could just back off sometimes and let a kid be a kid and work through their issues without everyone else judging them. NO ONES kid is perfect and just because my kids issue is more in your face doesn't mean it's any bigger of a deal than some other problem that we can't see.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't think that those kids are neurologically damaged. I think that they could use parents who are more consistant about their expectations. But this behavior may work well for the parents and if that is the case there is no reason for them to change their parenting, they may need to change providers to find one that is on the same page with them but not how they parent.
A lot of those behaviors sound like learned behaviors, not that they are good or bad, they just work for the family they are in. Children learn throught their interactions with their parents to ignore, bully, not share, screech, whine, and do whatever they like to do whether it is against the rules or not. And staring of to space is quite normal for children who are bored by their surroundings. Anxiety has been shown to come from living with parents who change the expectations constantly depending on their mood, they may range from physically violent for a minor behavior to letting a huge misbehavior go without a comment and that causes kids to worry a lot about what the reaction is going to be. I am sorry you had a hard time with your daycare, it may have been easier to get the kids in the routine if you stuck with one age range, especially a young age range. I don't think there was anything wrong with the kids though, they did what they learned to do at home from their parents.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

Children who often flat-out ignore adults and other children when spoken to.
That's pretty typical. I've found that it helps to get down on their level and touch them to help them listen.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I'm wondering, what do you know about these parents? it may be that the parents need to do "xyz" but many here seems to be assuming that, without knowing what the parents are doing. what would pthe people here think, if in say theory, the children were acting this way and the parents were doing the exact same thing as they were doing? If you do xyz and your child is an angel, and then another parent does xyz (and then maybe abc, because xyz didnt work and they realize every child needs something different) but so forth and so on, perhaps someone could very well be "the perfect parent" and not have "the perfect child"

but I suppose, its easier to assume these parents aren't consistent or they dont have an attached relationship etc. I'm just saying, thats not ALWAYS the case.

and yes some kids get vaccinated on schedule and dont get vaccine damage. but guess what, some kids do get damaged by vaccines - even the CDC will agree to this.

and yes, some children need more discipline and thats why they act that way. but then you have children whose parents are doing exactly what they should and still their children have these problems.

It's not like autism can be cured by better parents... but to the OP you know these parents a little better, you might have a better idea if its medical or parenting - however, not EVERY child who has these problems have them because the parents aren't as good as the other posters here. And I pray that you never have a child like that, but if you did it wouldn't make you any less of a parent, or that child any less of a person (that they deserved to be called brats?!?) be thankful its not your child, but don't think your parenting can save you from having a ND child. it can happen to anyone.


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## Kristin0105 (Mar 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
Wow, you just described my SFIL's nephew exactly...

I've observed his parents in action and, in his case, I'd have to agree... His mom has said it's a food allergy and undiagnosed ADHD, but they also let him run wild.

With the little boy I know he's ADDICTED to TV and video games. If he's playing is DS it's with the TV on cartoons. When he gets tired of that it's time to play Wii... I've never seen him pick up a book or anything like that. (He's around 3) I disagree with his mom that he's ADHD or ADD because he is able to sit and focus on his video games and TV shows just fine. But if you try to break that concentration he'll ignore you until you touch him or get close to him physically and then he'll get violent.


I didn't read the entire thread so someone might have addressed this but it is possible to have adhd and have times of hyper-focus depending on the level of interest. Video games, tv, and sometimes a really good book can lead one to be hyper-focused but a textbook or lecture might not be engaging enough.

Some children respond to different things in foods one might not think of. My dd can't have refined sugar but org. cane sugar is fine. Regular bread or rolls, catsup, some soups, noodles, some organic granola bars etc can cause her to lose control of her behavior. If I didn't feed her a pure diet from the beginning I would think the loud, sassy, out of control behavior was normal for her.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

I really hope everyone who thinks that the only reason children ever behave like this is because of uninvolved parenting someday has a wonderful, amazing, intense, high-needs, sensory-seeking child.







And then comes back to this thread and edits their posts.









~Loving my sweet, often-well behaved, dogpile-wrestling furniture-scaling excitedly-screaming hair-biting sword-fighting two year old, and his younger brother the Mellowest Baby Ever.


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## WhiteHorse (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FullMetalMom* 
I have to say that I exhibited many of those traits when I was a child, I believe not because I was nd'ed but because I was angry I did not have consistent caregiving from my parents for most of my childhood. I was in daycare from the time I was 1 year old to 13 and I was a very angry child. If parent who have their kids in daycare all week do not really step up during the off hours, a child can really feel abandoned and uncared for (no matter how good the dcp is). Some people underestimate how much a child REALLY needs to attach to someone and needs to be given a sense of worth. Just my







:. My experience is one of the reasons I am dedicated to ap and have chosen to be a SAHM.

Right ON!

I just also wanted to make a comment to several of the posters who have sounded condescending toward the OP. I work with a group of underprivleged kids for 1 hour one night per week and I tell you it is HARD. These kids are ages 7-12 and exhibit ALL of the traits in the OP's list for the entire hour - yes even at age 10, climbing on furniture, screaming, etc.. They are normal kids for the most part, but just very needy and have not yet learned the skills or manners we expect from kids that age. If I had to deal with just 4 of them every day I would pack up and move to a deserted island. Raising kids right seems to be less and less common these days when it is easier to set them in front of a tv or video game. Or in the case I saw earlier this week at the park, let them fend for themselves - I saw an 18 month old boy wandering around the park alone - with both his parents sitting on the park bench watching from afar. He was the saddest most lonely little boy I had ever seen in my life - both parents present, but not really interacting with him at all. He was much too young to enjoy any of the park equipment safely and did not know how to go about it even if he could. This is more and more what I see and it saddens me deeply.


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## terranova (Nov 18, 2007)

I just happened on this thread this morning. The behaviour you describe is how my daughter has been for the last week...and I've been trying so hard to figure out what is causing it. It started around the time (3 or 4 weeks ago) when I changed our childcare situation, and has been getting progressively worse. I have been trying to figure out if it's an emotional or physical thing...perhaps it's both. I am a sensitive person, and I'm thinking that maybe she's got some similar sensitivities, possibly to industrial cleaners they use, or food that she eats there. Or maybe she is modelling behaviour she sees there, in which case, she needs to stop going there.

In the last several days she has hit me a lot. She never hit anyone ever until about 2 weeks ago. She actually hit me 3 times yesterday morning before she even properly woke up. Bizarre, and totally unlike the child I know. Out of control. I'm going to try to change our arrangement back, and use supplements to help her get back to herself.

It's interesting to me that you frame it as neurologically damaged...the way I've thought about it is that kids today are much more sensitive, and it's part of our evolution.

Amy


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

IMO, these behaviors often occur when a child is stressed and in fear. They react this way because it is the best they can do. When a child is dis-regulated like that, the parent needs to focus on the child and their relationship and not the specific behavior. Find out what is the reason for the acting out and address that, rather. If your DD (you don't say how old she is) is in a new daycare she is likely afraid, missing you and her previous dcp, and is feeling abandoned in a strange place. However, these negative behaviors can also be brought on by food intolerances, and by artificial food additives, so I would also check out what the daycare has been feeding her.


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

Modern children are empowered, when compared to children of previous generations. "Speak only when spoken to" "Children should be seen and not heard", heck kids used to not be allowed to eat dinner untill the parents had finished. It is a different world, and we should expect our children to be different too.

Now, they are encouraged to speak, encouraged to make decisions, generally encouraged to seek independance early and often. Do you think people were hung up about "speech delays" when children were openly beaten if they spoke out of turn?

We ask a lot of our children (as a society), we expect them to be significantly more independant and socially resilient than previous generations did. And as a result... They are. And that is where the disconnect happens.

We can't ask them to make all of their own decisions AND *obey* us at the same time, that just isn't possible, and it isn't a reasonable expectation.

I do not find most of the traits listed to be negative ones, just inconvenient to someone who has priorities that are not in-line with those that were set by the child, who has been charged with the task of setting his own priorities.

I don't think necessarily that children have changed, I think that what we ask of them has changed, but what we expect of them has not, and I find that unrealistic.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

I am sorry I disagree with you. Children that act that way are in distress -- I am not saying this caused by bad parenting (though it can be the case). Whatever the era, those behaviors are NOT "normal" behaviors for *happy*, non-stressed children.


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama* 
I am sorry I disagree with you. Children that act that way are in distress -- I am not saying this caused by bad parenting (though it can be the case). Whatever the era, those behaviors are NOT "normal" behaviors for *happy*, non-stressed children.

Things on the list based on external perception, or preconcieved notions about how *children* should act. Many would neither be surprising nor unacceptable if an adult did them. I am saying that children are treated a lot more like adults in many respects than they once were, and they are acting like adults too (at least as far as they are capable), but our expectations of obedience, following, attentiveness to authority, apropriate behavior, etc have not changed nearly as much as their environment has.

If you wrote this list about teenagers would you think the teenagers must be damaged? What if you wrote it about 21 year-olds? 40 year-olds? What I am saying is these are not surprising behaviors, they are surprising strikes out at independance from beings who are not "supposed" to be like that.

Quote:

Children who often flat-out *ignore adults and other children* when spoken to.

Children who *refuse to follow* simple instructions.

Children who stare off into space *as though* the world around them is much too boring to take notice.

Children who, rather than *use appropriately*, stand on, jump on, roll their faces on and lick furniture (such as sofas, chairs, or coffee tables.)

Children who *seem* panicky and unhappy.

Children who scream and SCREECH at the top of their lungs when something doesn't exactly go their way. *No compromising*. Constant misery.

Children who are old enough to *follow* basic safety rules, but *go out of their way* to break them when adult eyes are not looking.
Bolded all the assumptions that are true for the beholder, not necessarily for the child, or are subjective.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama* 
Whatever the era, those behaviors are NOT "normal" behaviors for *happy*, non-stressed children.

Really?
It's not normal for happy children to play by 'wrestling, punching, kicking, yelling, hitting, pressing their bodies into the personal space of other children'?

Or to 'stand on, jump on, roll their faces on and lick furniture'?

Because those really seem like normal behaviors for exuberent, happy, physical children to me.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

people often call my son one of the happiest children they have ever met, despite his sensory and social problems.And although he experiences stresses during times of frustration, that may occur more frequently because of his special needs, over all and at other times he is not stressed either.


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## Lollybrat (Sep 18, 2008)

I'm coming late to this thread, but I just wanted to say that I think "neurologically damaged" is a terrible term to appy to somebody's child, especially if you do not know the full medical history.

Medical science does not know the causes of autism or ADHD and there are probably multiple causes for these disorders. Vaccines or other environmental factors may play a role in the disorder for some children, but definately not for all.

My son was born with autism. He has special challenges and amazing gifts as a result. He has many of the behaviors listed in the OP. He is a very happy, attached, loving child. And he is certainly not "damaged".


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
Things on the list based on external perception, or preconcieved notions about how *children* should act. Many would neither be surprising nor unacceptable if an adult did them. I am saying that children are treated a lot more like adults in many respects than they once were, and they are acting like adults too (at least as far as they are capable), but our expectations of obedience, following, attentiveness to authority, apropriate behavior, etc have not changed nearly as much as their environment has.

If you wrote this list about teenagers would you think the teenagers must be damaged? What if you wrote it about 21 year-olds? 40 year-olds? What I am saying is these are not surprising behaviors, they are surprising strikes out at independance from beings who are not "supposed" to be like that. Bolded all the assumptions that are true for the beholder, not necessarily for the child, or are subjective.


First I didn't day they were damaged, I said they were dis-regulated, very different. A dis-regulated person is in stress, be it from neurological damage, fear, food intolerances etc. Any child (teen or adult for that matter) who acts "badly" will be dis-regulated however it occurred. It is all a matter of degree. Adults are not paragons of virtue, they display a great deal of so-called inappropriate behavior, lying, cheating, violence and on and on. But one thing I am almost certain, no truly happy (regulated) person acts in the above way. I actually think you should ignore the behavior as it is merely a symptom and work on building loving relationships so that children feel safe, then they probably don't need to exhibit some of these behaviors. If they do, give them a break, love them and ensure they know this above all else, they are not bad. I do not hold my children to a higher standard than I hold myself. I know without doubt I am far from perfection, so I certainly don't expect it of them. I realize I am lucky, my children are for the most part regulated.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia*
Really?
It's not normal for happy children to play by 'wrestling, punching, kicking, yelling, hitting, pressing their bodies into the personal space of other children'?

Or to 'stand on, jump on, roll their faces on and lick furniture'?

Because those really seem like normal behaviors for exuberent, happy, physical children to me.

As I said above, it is all about degree. Wrestling, punching, kicking, yelling, hitting, pressing bodies into personal space of others is a sign of a dis-regulated child who probably needs some help, especially if the person he/she is doing this too doesn't want it. Standing on, jumping on, rolling faces on and licking furniture is the same thing. These actions are often done by a child to self-calm, ie they are dis-regulated.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy*
people often call my son one of the happiest children they have ever met, despite his sensory and social problems.And although he experiences stresses during times of frustration, that may occur more frequently because of his special needs, over all and at other times he is not stressed either.

When he acts out he is not in a regulated state of being, but that doesn't mean to say he isn't doing the best he can in the moment.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama* 
As I said above, it is all about degree. Wrestling, punching, kicking, yelling, hitting, pressing bodies into personal space of others is a sign of a dis-regulated child who probably needs some help, especially if the person he/she is doing this too doesn't want it. Standing on, jumping on, rolling faces on and licking furniture is the same thing. These actions are often done by a child to self-calm, ie they are dis-regulated.

I'm pretty sure my son does those things because they're fun, not to self-calm







Jumping on the couch is fun. Wrestling is fun. Climbing on people and furniture is fun. Yelling at the top of your lungs is fun. He does these things when he is happy and excited- not when he's upset or angry of frustrated (well, the yelling he still does but it's a different yell ).

He's obviously not allowed to play this way if the other person doesn't want to participate, but other than that, I don't see how being a very physically engaged child is a bad thing. Joyfully running over to your cousins and hugging them so hard you knock them over and everyone ends up in a squirming giggling pile on the floor with each child trying to get to wrestle their way to the top is not "disregulation", it's childhood.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

regulated by *whose* standards? sometimes he does these things while he is in a good mood. I know the dr's want to say his body is "dis regulated" but that just really means his body doesn't work the way the next child does.

if you want to call it dis regulation though, that is fine. I have no problem with that, my only problem is with the assumption that the parents caused this dis regulation with bad parenting. But if its because of "bad parenting" then I guess my vaccinating him was bad parenting since what is what caused him to be this way. In my eyes, I do think I made a bad choice by vaccinating my child, but I don't see it as bad parenting in the sense of lack of discipline/structure/attachment that caused it.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
I'm pretty sure my son does those things because they're fun, not to self-calm







Jumping on the couch is fun. Wrestling is fun. Climbing on people and furniture is fun. Yelling at the top of your lungs is fun. He does these things when he is happy and excited- not when he's upset or angry of frustrated (well, the yelling he still does but it's a different yell ).

He's obviously not allowed to play this way if the other person doesn't want to participate, but other than that, I don't see how being a very physically engaged child is a bad thing. Joyfully running over to your cousins and hugging them so hard you knock them over and everyone ends up in a squirming giggling pile on the floor with each child trying to get to wrestle their way to the top is not "disregulation", it's childhood.









Okay, I realize many children do this, and they are all different. Can he stop when asked? If not think the issue would be impulse control. It can be dis-regulation. All dis-regulation is when they get to a state when they no long in control of their emotions. The thing is also, we all have our own agendas, and comfort zones, if you are cool with your child being very physical with others that's fine, personally, I would prefer my child not to to constantly wrestling, hitting, punching, hugging so hard that another child is knocked over, but then neither would he want that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *super Glue Mommy*
regulated by *whose* standards? sometimes he does these things while he is in a good mood. I know the dr's want to say his body is "dis regulated" but that just really means his body doesn't work the way the next child does.

if you want to call it dis regulation though, that is fine. I have no problem with that, my only problem is with the assumption that the parents caused this dis regulation with bad parenting. But if its because of "bad parenting" then I guess my vaccinating him was bad parenting since what is what caused him to be this way. In my eyes, I do think I made a bad choice by vaccinating my child, but I don't see it as bad parenting in the sense of lack of discipline/structure/attachment that caused it.

I am using the term in the way Helen Forbes does in her books Beyond Consequences, Logic and Control and it really refers to the behaviors that the OP stated in her post. These are all behaviors indicative of a child that is emotionally dis-regulated. It doesn't have to be because of bad parenting, but can be obviously, ie a child that feels unloved, unworthy, abandoned, etc. This is obviously not the case with your child who was neurologically damaged by vaccines.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

and so, it is also possible this is the case with some of the children mentioned in the original post. or some children we encounter in real life, that some of the members here apparently call "brats"

based on your question "can he stopped when asked" posed to proth, it seems we are not dealing with different agendas but different philospophies, which is a much harder bridge to gap the understanding.

It also does not mean one parent is okay with a child hitting/wrestling/punching etc (though some may be) or that because they are okay with that is why their agenda differes from yours.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
and so, it is also possible this is the case with some of the children mentioned in the original post. or some children we encounter in real life, that some of the members here apparently call "brats"

based on your question "can he stopped when asked" posed to proth, it seems we are not dealing with different agendas but different philospophies, which is a much harder bridge to gap the understanding.

It also does not mean one parent is okay with a child hitting/wrestling/punching etc (though some may be) or that because they are okay with that is why their agenda differes from yours.

I am not making myself clear. I am never okay with my children hitting other children. But if they do, I wouldn't focus on the hitting, but on what is causing the hitting behavior within the child. And I wouldn't even try to address that immediately, my first task would be to calm myself and allow them the safe space to regulate their emotions. My only philosophy on parenting is ensuring my child knows they are loved above all and that they know that they are safe and their needs will always be met. That they are not bad, even though they may behave "badly" sometimes. As for the "agenda", we all have needs (or agendas), ie I need to get out of the house on time, I don't want my child to hurt or be violent towards another child, I want my child to do their homework, eat healthy food, etc but none of those needs (agendas) are my children's, they just want to play. I will never expect a child to take care of my needs (agendas) that is not their responsibility, at least not until they are over 25 and have fully functioning frontal lobes. Does that make it clearer?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I guess my dd is ND, stressed, and poorly parented.







She at least sometimes meets everything on the list. Except for the safety rule thing. She's pretty good about that. I mean, she doesn't do the rest constantly, but she's a wild little girl and high needs and sensory seeking and full of energy. And she's also a drama queen, so although she really is a very happy girl when she's in her theatric mode, she might very well seem unhappy to outsiders. Until three seconds later when her attention shifts and she starts giggling again.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama* 
I am not making myself clear. I am never okay with my children hitting other children. But if they do, I wouldn't focus on the hitting, but on what is causing the hitting behavior within the child. And I wouldn't even try to address that immediately, my first task would be to calm myself and allow them the safe space to regulate their emotions. My only philosophy on parenting is ensuring my child knows they are loved above all and that they know that they are safe and their needs will always be met. That they are not bad, even though they may behave "badly" sometimes. As for the "agenda", we all have needs (or agendas), ie I need to get out of the house on time, I don't want my child to hurt or be violent towards another child, I want my child to do their homework, eat healthy food, etc but none of those needs (agendas) are my children's, they just want to play. I will never expect a child to take care of my needs (agendas) that is not their responsibility, at least not until they are over 25 and have fully functioning frontal lobes. Does that make it clearer?

I think you were clear the first time. I also am never okay with my children hitting other children. I also resolve it (same was as you do). and yes we all have needs and agendas - including our children. I just don't think that is the issue at hand. I am not speaking for proth, but I could have written her post, and had I written it it would not have meant I don't care if my children hurt others - it would just mean that I understand it doesn't mean there is something "wrong" with my child or that they are "parented poorly" or that they are "brats" (and not saying you said that either) but I think you were clear, perhaps I am the one who was not clear.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

I certainly don't think children are brats, as I have said ad nauseam, they are doing the best they can with what they have.

Here is an example of a dis-regulated child and hitting. This happened at DS's school, which does not punish children, they are using the Beyond Consequences model. A 2nd grader hit another kid. She was in meltdown, so was given some time and space to cool down. A mother of another child, who happens to be a counselor/therapist who utilizes BC in her practice was there, so she sat with the child so that she wasn't alone and didn't feel punished or bad, she didn't try and calm her or engage her in conversation, let alone address the hitting. The child was crying, and shouting, then suddenly she blurted out, "I don't want to get a shot!". It turns out she was going in for a tetanus shot the next day and she was very, very scared about it (smart kid







), once she had let this out, she calmed quickly, returned to the classroom and had a great rest of the day.

And to those that think I am blaming parents, this couldn't be farther from the truth, because I think that parents do the best they can too. But I think we need to be honest here and own up to our less than stellar moments, and see it for what it is -- expecting our children to take care of our needs. I for one, hate that I lose my cool at my kids sometimes, that I allow myself to become dis-regulated. But I always admit it, and apologize for it.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

i know you didnt say that







I didn't find what you said nasty in any way by the way, in fact that was why I replied to it. I don''t think I could have replied nicely to some of the comments in this thread lol.

It's not that im in disagreement with what you are saying - actually so far there isnt anything in this thread that you have said that stands out to me that I directly disagree with. I'm sorry if it seemed that way by me corresponding with you here. I think the example you gave is great, thats how we would handle it, I dont use the term dis-regulated but I have that same overall understanding. It's just my experience, from having a child with special needs, that sometimes that is NOT the case. Of course, SPD is in a sense "dis-regulation", but in the context we are talking about here, about whether or not a child may have a special need, the reality is that yes, sometimes its special needs. it may still be disregulation - that disregulation can be caused by special needs, poor parenting, or just something going on in their life that is no ones fault - such as the example you gave above.

having ASD with a sensory processing disorder is not entirely the same as disregulation though, IMO. it's who the child is. Yes, the SPD is disregulation - but even when the child is "regulated" you still see some of these behaviors. Many parents of autistic children will tell you that it doesnt mean there is something "wrong" with their child. Their child is different - and in beautiful way they would not change for the world.


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## emmaegbert (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
I really hope everyone who thinks that the only reason children ever behave like this is because of uninvolved parenting someday has a wonderful, amazing, intense, high-needs, sensory-seeking child.







And then comes back to this thread and edits their posts.









LOL.

My son has done all those things at different times. Certainly not all the time or all at once. But he's a GREAT kid! Very high energy, smart, funny, intense, and a physical, sensory learner. When his needs for physical activity, inter-personal stimulation, periods of calm and concentration, adequate sleep, healthy food, and physical contact are being met, he's much, much easier to be around!

And, ugh, I could never be a daycare provider. I do not have the patience or stamina for it!


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## sbgrace (Sep 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
Do you have only a girl? Because a lot of the behaviors you describe are more common among boys.

This. For sure. Boys tend to be a lot more active and rough and tumble and it's normal and even necessary. Temperment also plays into a lot of this. I've got one kid who is a lot of the list and another who isn't. He whines and his brother doesn't so much. He's a lot more active in play too. Same family/home/parents/environment. Different kids from the get-go.

I do think though that part of this is that negative feelings in the caregiver and attention to the problems leads to more of the same. And then kids start to see themselves as broken when they really aren't. Which also breeds repeats. That's true for things like whining and aggression when angry anyway. Some of the other stuff on the list is just plain normal and fun for some (many?) kids-especially boys.

I know you're no longer in childcare OP and it sounds like that's a good decision for you. But for anyone else Howard Glasser's materials--especially his All Children Flourishing book--is a must read. The approach brings out the best in kids and parents/caregivers alike. All kids. But it is a must for intense kids. Who, actually, can use that intensity for greatness in life if it's valued and nurtured.


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

I haven't read all the posts but I have to say I have a new level of respect for childcare providers and pre-school teachers after having my own two, very energetic, spirited, and totally normal kids.







They're exhausting!


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emmaegbert* 
LOL.

My son has done all those things at different times. Certainly not all the time or all at once. But he's a GREAT kid! Very high energy, smart, funny, intense, and a physical, sensory learner. When his needs for physical activity, inter-personal stimulation, periods of calm and concentration, adequate sleep, healthy food, and physical contact are being met, he's much, much easier to be around!

And, ugh, I could never be a daycare provider. I do not have the patience or stamina for it!









:

I wanted to add that caring for *one* high-energy child kicks my butt, I can't imagine having a house full of them, with a regular inability to follow directions thrown into the mix. The OP has lasted longer and done a better job dealing with it than I would have, I'm sure.

I really do think that the high physical energy piece is very much temprement based, though. And that when it's not channeled appropriately that frustation can lead to a lot of the other listening/social problems the OP talked about. My oldest son left me incredibly sore from kicking IN UTERO. I know my parenting couldn't have been screwing him up already!


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## babygrace (Aug 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama* 
Okay, I realize many children do this, and they are all different. Can he stop when asked? If not think the issue would be impulse control. It can be dis-regulation.

at what age is impulse control expected? if not fully then for the most part at least.


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