# About to give up



## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

I ebf my first for 18 months despite her projectile reflux. The only reason I made it through was because I was able to get her to burp mostly between sides and because she was only up once per night. 

DD2 is up all night in pain from gas and reflux. I try to burp her and most of the time she won't burp no matter how long or hard I try. I have tried gripe water and gas drops with no success.

Her latch is the issue. She has a very shallow latch. My nipples are sore too, she often gums them. I have been to a lactation consultant twice. One of them pointed our her minor tongue tie. When her latch didn't improve despite proper positioning and practice I looked into tongue and lip ties. Then I searched for someone to possibly release hers. I found a dentist who said he could release them but wanted to examine her first. So I took her to the dentist and he looked at both her tongue tie and upper lip tie and determined that they weren't a problem. He couldn't find any point in releasing either. 

So if a tongue or lip tie isn't the issue what is?! I'm up every night cus my poor one month old is in pain. I am lucky if she can sleep two hours at a time. Mostly she's up every 30 mins to an hour. I can't go on much longer without sleep. Nor do I enjoy breastmilk baths or seeing my baby in pain and hearing her scream and not be able to do anything about it.

I have an appointment with a lactation consultant who also clips tongue ties. I'm going to get a second opinion on the tongue tie. The lip tie will be more difficult to find a second opinion on as hardly anyone is willing to clip them. I had a hard time just locating the dentist. 

Anyone else had/have a baby who had really bad reflux and gas from a poor latch? What else causes it? She was 3 weeks early, but since she's now 5 weeks old I figured that wouldn't be an issue anymore. 

I'm at my wit's end. If I get nowhere with this lactation consultant I'm going to switch to pumping and using bottles. Of course I think that will likely become too time consuming. I'll probably end up giving her formula. 

I really want to breastfeed, but I can't work through no sleep and I can't put her through all that pain. Hopefully I can find a solution but I'm not getting my hopes up. I know formula can cause reflux issues too so there might not be a solution period.


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## JamieCapone (Sep 8, 2015)

Hello,
I am sorry you and your little one are going through this right now. It's got to be tough, not getting the sleep you need or any sleep at all for that matter. 

I feel like I've had a similar issue. Not exactly the same but it went something like this:
My son for the first 11 weeks was tight with his stomach, made uncomfortable noises and seemed over all unsatisfied. He was gaining adequate weight, having more than enough wet diapers and bowel movements so we went on exclusively breastfeeding and it did finally get a little easier. But he was always up and feeding every 1-2 hours.

How do you know your little one has reflux? How often are you nursing? Is she having enough weight diapers, weight gain and bowel movements? Are you completely opposed to pumping? Also which position are you using associated with the poor latch? Is there another position you could try like the one they posted about on this site called "natural breastfeeding" It is essentially where you lay the baby on you with head down on your breast. The thread will not allow me to post links but try looking up natural breastfeeding through this site.

You can always pump and nurse. Is there someone to help with feeding in the night time you could pump and let someone else do at least one feeding at night so you can get a little more rest in?


Nursing in the early days is so tough. I've had all different experiences with all of four of my children. My last one, my only son was hands down the most difficult. I hope thinks start getting a little easier for you guys , whatever you chose to do!
Good luck, Hope to hear back from you!
Jamie


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

I say reflux as a term to mean excessive spit up. She spits up very often and seems to do so forcefully at least once a day. It's always due to the trapped air in her stomach. If I can get her to burp it's not as much of an issue. 

I use the cradle hold right now. I couldn't get her to latch at all in the natural breastfeeding positions. She doesn't seem to like them. I try to keep her head higher than her legs so that she's not completely sideways and there's less chance of anything coming up.

I could pump and nurse, but dh works nights and could only help bottle feed once per week when he's home at night (Sunday.) So basically I'd have to pump while baby is crying unless I have some saved up and can just pump after I feed her. I do have a medela pump that is pretty fast and efficient, so at least it doesn't take long to pump.

She is gaining weight though and seems to have enough wet or poopy diapers. I noticed she does have slightly less poopy ones though, but the wets are very consistent.


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## profe (Aug 19, 2015)

What is your letdown like? I have overactive letdown for the first few months and it causes a lot of spitting up in my newborns. Mine have also been born with weak upper stomach sphincters, so they have a tendency to have those giant vomits. I've had to make sure that they remain upright after a feed for at least 30 minutes to keep it down.

Have you tried the football hold? I find with a pillow I can get them really elevated which helps a lot.

If you really thing it's reflux - seeing signs of discomfort, back arching, poor weight gain etc - then I would have her evaluated. Meds + breastmilk would be preferable to formula. Formula is a lot harder to digest.


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## pulcetti (Sep 29, 2014)

i tought about the letdown too. I had an over production of milk the first year and baby would just vomit...spit..etc.. A lactation consultant told me the fallowing:

1.manually pump a bit of milk out so pressure will be less when baby will latch
2.try the natural position because is the one babies usually prefer when having problems with reflux. Breastfeed on demand. Let baby decide when. More often they latch less stronger the letdown.
3.babywear your baby as much as you can in a upright position, tummy to tummy. Mama's body heat and movements gonna help 
4.babywear during the night and sleep in a gliding chair or recliner. Upright position helps also during the night.
5.take good care of your nipples: warm showers, and put patches with black tea on nipples very often. Black tea reduces inflammations and soreness.
6. get someone who can take care of the house and all the others tasks
7.avoid dairy products and white fours. Try for 1 months and then tell the difference.

Good luck


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## llwr (Feb 24, 2009)

I second the overactive let-down recommendations and keeping baby in an upright position. 

My concern is that if you switch to formula, the problem might be even worse. Breastmilk is easier to digest and bottles typically have a faster flow. 

I can be hard in the beginning...


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

I'm starting to think the upright thing is some sort of joke cus my daughter's reflux defies gravity. She projectile vomits as much upright as she does in any position. Being upright makes absolutely no difference at all. Guess my kid just isn't typical. I just got my daily breastmilk shower, in an upright position and with gas medicine. I feel like the grinch spouting off his amazement at Christmas coming despite his attempts at stopping it. I'd do the natural breastfeeding if she'd latch on in that position but she refuses.

I did notice that she's sucking in her lower lip. I'm not sure why she's doing it. I keep trying to flip it out but she just breaks her latch when I try. The lactation consultant didn't seem concerned with her minor lower lip tie. So far the tongue tie release has changed nothing, but I knew I had to at least try it. I don't know what else might cause a baby to suck in their lower lip.


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

Forgot to add, she chokes on my letdown every time. It doesn't seem forceful when she pops off though, it just drips. Maybe it drips too fast?


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

Found this while searching solutions online: http://www.breastfeeding-problems.com/foremilk-hindmilk-imbalance.html

I was told to switch sides after 10 minutes or so, or even sooner by the lactation consultants. I also noticed the other day that my breastmilk was one color in one bottle and another in the other bottle when pumping from both sides simultaneously. I guess one was producing foremilk and the other, hindmilk. I think I'll focus on one side from now on. This will probably also help with my problems with clogged ducts.


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## littlebear3 (Jul 1, 2014)

When i was ebf my newborn i also followed the consultants advise of switching every 10min and nursing both sides but that's what was contributing to baby getting too much formilk not enough hind because neither breast was emptying to get to the hind.Switched to nursing one side for each feeding and the plugged ducts stopped because hindmilk was emptying. Also,the vomiting, tummy twisting, back arching, baby stopped those behaviors and slept. The fore vs hind imbalance leaves babies hungry and can cause tummy issues. 

Also i had terribly strong letdown.They get better at anticipating it as they grow but it really helps if you just gently pinch and push toward your chest and that helps slow down the letdown flow and minimizes choking. I'd double check the exact method since my discription might be off.

I know a lot of people advocate natural position but you might want to try football.It is similar to cradle but keeps baby more upright and might help the latch without dropping lower lip since the shape and skin of the outer breast might be different than the inner side(especially if you're still a little engorged).This frees up hands to help pull the lower lip out if it gets sucked in too. Plus if youre sore, sometimes a new position can alleviate the latch pain.

Have you considered meeting with a lactation consultant in person so they can observe everything as it happens and help troubleshoot?


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## Ratchet (Mar 24, 2011)

How about a nipple shield? It helps with too strong let down, sore nipples, and it's sort of fool proof for latching. They aren't evil these days, and you can get them pretty easily. I used one with DD2 and it wasn't too bad weaning her off it once we were ready. I know some LCs hate them, and I know our NICU handed them out like candy, but sometimes you really do need "the easy button." 


Also, some babies really do benefit from meds for reflux, briefly, and i agree with a PP that meds plus breast milk sounds more appealing than formula if you have the option. Is she better with expressed breast milk in a bottle? I.e., is it definitely a latch issue, or would she do this no matter how she was eating?


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## LTurtle (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm not an expert, but it sounds to me like you might have an overactive letdown and bad latch combo. If baby is not flaring out her bottom lip she isn't getting a good seal, so air will get in. If she's choking or sputtering or pulling off and on, those are signs of overactive letdown and will likewise let air in.

I'd suggest block feeding for a while to make sure you're getting that hindmilk out of the breast and into the baby, as well as slowing down the milk ejection reflex to eliminate the choking. Also, keep pulling her lip out, even if she doesn't like it. She'll get used to it and having a good latch will help keep air out of her tummy and be easier on your nipples. If you think a lower lip tie is the problem there, it really could be worth it to try to find someone who will clip it. My son had a bad latch, due in part to overactive letdown and partly to lip/tongue tie. He fell and severed his own lip tie which improved his latch a lot.


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## Oceanspray (Nov 20, 2014)

All good ideas. I second the nipple shield if you feel you need it (better than formula and may give real satisfaction. I also agree with @LTurtle and others that it sounds like you also have overactive letdown in addition to the latch issue. Keep trying some of the combinations suggested about and, most of all, block feeding and focusing on the latch (whether with another LC or nipple shield or tie clip). It may make the world of difference. I know it probably feels like it's been a long haul already (8 weeks?), but you still have way longer to go - you can almost certainly get this breastfeeding relationship going better than it is now and it will be worth it. Keep checking in, here, too, to let us know how you are doing with the suggestions.


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## verdant (Apr 8, 2013)

Did you also check to see if she might have tongue tie?


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## profe (Aug 19, 2015)

If you're having a lot of trouble with clogged ducts you can start taking lecithin. I took it a lot with my first when I kept getting mastitis (took me awhile to be able to recognize the plugged ducts early on).

Definitely let baby finish one side before offering the other. Follow the baby not the clock. When I started block feeding I did blocks of 2 hours. That was enough for me but some women need longer ones.


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

I think a 1 hour block should be enough to empty one breast fully. She usually nurses, takes a break (during which I attempt to burp her), and then nurses again. After nursing twice she falls asleep for however long before wanting to nurse again. Of course last night she was up till 2 am for no discernable reason feeding off and on and fussing every time I tried to set her down. Around 2:30am she finally passed out and I got to sleep before picking dh up from work at 6am. And he always wonders why I'm exhausted when I come get him...


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

Got a perfect latch at the lactation consultants office today. Gave me hope till I tried again at home. Will she open wide? No, no she will not. When my nipple was pointed at her nose in office she opened right up. Here at home she just gets fussy while I wait for her to open up. Ugh. I don't know what I'm doing wrong!


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## agentofchaos (Feb 10, 2014)

(I'm an LC)

It's a rule that babies "show off" in LC's offices. Annoying, and very frustrating for mom.

What I'd think about is this--how were you sitting and holding baby in the LC's office? Is your body doing different things now than it was there? Is your stress level higher because you're anticipating difficulty?

Sometimes LCs will take photos and text you with them, so you can see how you're holding your baby, because little differences can have a HUGE effect.


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

@agentofchaos I did use a nursing stool there and I don't have one at home. Baby also has issues reaching up and opening wide when she's sleepy, so it's hard to get the same result at night.

Saw the wic lactation consultant today. She helped me try natural nursing. This actually seems worse to me. She swallows even more air this way. She can't seem to keep suction in this position and clicks like crazy. She spit up everything at the lactation consultants office and soaked me. Then when I tried it at home... same thing. Sorry but getting soaked every time she nurses is definitely NOT an improvement.

It's starting to look like I'm just going to have to put up with her latch problems till she figures it out as she matures some more.


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## littlebear3 (Jul 1, 2014)

Soon her mouth will grow and jaw muscles strengthen and opening wide will be easier.

Hugs to you for persevering.❤


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## Incubator (May 11, 2006)

funfunkyfantastic said:


> Got a perfect latch at the lactation consultants office today. Gave me hope till I tried again at home. Will she open wide? No, no she will not. When my nipple was pointed at her nose in office she opened right up. Here at home she just gets fussy while I wait for her to open up. Ugh. I don't know what I'm doing wrong!


THIS. This right here MADE me reply. I had SO MANY PROBLEMS with my first one and I can remember this EXACT thing going through my head over and over.

My first may or may not have had a tongue tie. The ped said "OMG IT'S AWFUL" the LC said she couldn't see it at all. :shrug I didn't have anything done about it and yes, we struggled for weeks. He never seemed to open wide like they said he would. As he got bigger, his mouth got bigger, his latch got better and we suffered through it until things improved. It took a couple of months. Yes, it was HARD. I feel for you, because this sucks hindquarters.

I also have an overactive letdown and both of my kids would delatch and sputter until the flow slowed down. But then I was a sprayer. Like a breastmilk fountain. I'm not exaggerating. I've soaked walls that were several feet away. Each of my kids got more than one milkbath to the face and eyes (Thinking back on it now, it's hilarious. Have you ever seen a baby trying to get milk to stop spraying in his face? At the time it was infuriating for both of us.) Maybe mine is kind of an extreme example. :lol

In your case, your baby was early to begin with and she's still only 5 weeks. If you can take it, give it time. Do what you can to correct her latch and get practice for both of you, but give yourself a break. Chances are you're not doing anything wrong at all, you're both still just learning. Her mouth will get bigger, her latch will get better. Do what you can, but don't beat yourself up.

Even with my second, I had problems, and she was HUGE. After my experience with the first I just sucked it up for several weeks until it got easier. Easier said than done, I know. This is the hard part. Listen to the others as they have real strategies. My strategy was just to bear it out. I am sure I could have done more to help it along, but at one point I just gave up until it got better. And it did get better, even when I wasn't doing anything to help. Yours will get better too. Hang in there. This is the hard part. I know you think she's already five weeks, but really, she's still so small, and you are both still learning. The plus side is, she did have a perfect latch once! This is progress. If she can do it once, she will do it again.

ETA: To save my sanity on the first one I did pump for awhile just so I could avoid the dread that came with breastfeeding at least once a day. I don't respond to pumps so it didn't last long, but I did do it, and it gave me something other than fking up on breastfeeding to focus on. I also tried a nipple shield. I never could get the hang of that thing. #1 also had reflux, although he did not spit up. His reflux was also not helped at all by being upright. He ALSO did not sleep. Like ever. And wanted to nurse ALL THE TIME. AND sucked his lip in on the bottom. He also tore up my nipples for awhile. Your story is so much like mine. Other thoughts I had after I typed: #1 got thrush in the first month. Also I've discovered since then that I have pretty flat nipples. I never noticed it before, but that's why the nipple shield did not work for me, and why breastfeeding hurts like the dickens with every child for me.


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

@Incubator (love the name, btw) thanks. I know it will improve over time. With DD1 I did absolutely nothing to improve things besides just burping more often. Any time I couldn't get a burp out of dd1 and put her back on the breast she turned into a breastmilk fountain. Lots of laundry. I had high hopes that this child would be different, but no, this is worse... and I thought that was bad! Sheesh. Yesterday I got 3 breastmilk baths... 3! Ugh. Such a pain. You know it's funny, when my letdown first starts it's just a drip, them once she sucks some more it gets into a steady stream if I'm full enough. I've sprayed her in the face once already. With dd1 I'd blast her in the face with milk every time she let go too soon, lol.

I've decided to forgo my nursing rocking chair since it's impossible to do proper positioning in there. Now I put a pillow behind me on the couch and slouch with my feet on the Ottoman and my knees bent. This allows her to lean into me more while still in the cradle hold she's used to. I've also been allowing her to latch herself so she can learn. I figure if it sucks either way she might as well practice. I just readjust her lips as needed. Still can't always stop the clicking.


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## Incubator (May 11, 2006)

Ach. I had two different rocking chairs with my kids. I never could nurse in either one of them, even the one that was MADE for nursing. Go figure. Also my first kid clicked a lot. Sounds like you got the same kids I did, only in the opposite order. I got the hard one first. She'll be an old pro at it before you know it. I wish you lived next door to me so I could give you a hug.


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

Aww thanks @Incubator. Well little one went on a crying spree after nursing. Couldn't get a burp out, so she's strapped to me in a mei tai. Got lots of chores to do (I've fallen behind) and it doesn't look like dh isn't gonna put up with them not being done anymore (got to hear a nice rant about it when I picked him up from work in the am.) Chores with a baby strapped on it is.


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## Incubator (May 11, 2006)

Tell him as soon as he can get milk out of his breasts you'll think about giving a crap about what he thinks about the house. You're five weeks in. The house isn't going to burn down if you leave the dishes for a few days.


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

Incubator said:


> Tell him as soon as he can get milk out of his breasts you'll think about giving a crap about what he thinks about the house. You're five weeks in. The house isn't going to burn down if you leave the dishes for a few days.


Lol, too funny. Actually 6 1/2 weeks, but yeah. He apologized later about his rant. Usually he's more understanding. After all he knows I nap when I can. On particularly rough days I'm in there joining him for a couple hours as he sleeps. He works nights. I've got dd1 helping me right now. She's cleaning the bathroom counters. She happens to be pretty good at it.


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## TheQueen16 (Aug 31, 2015)

I'm sorry you're going through this. You have already gotten a lot of good advice, so I just want to emphasize taking care of yourself so that this doesn't get you too depressed. I know it's hard.


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## Oceanspray (Nov 20, 2014)

You've received lots of great ideas and encouragement. I hadn't been on for a while and was really encouraged to see that you GOT A LATCH. I can only imagine how disheartening it was for you not to be able to replicate it at home, but the fact is, your (very young) baby can do it. That is huge. Time.... give it time. Give yourself sleep. It isn't the end of the world if it doesn't work perfectly, as long as babe is getting something/enough for now.

I am glad you can see the (crazy, exhausted, mildly hallucinating) humour in all of this, once in a while. 

Kudos for you for just continuing to ask and and post and stay in touch, too. You are doing great!

((( Nursing vibes )))


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

The last few days have worn me down quite a bit. Spitting up forcefully more often then usual. Then again she's been clicking more often than usual. Can't figure out how to stop the clicking. 

Some slightly good news is fixing the milk imbalance has left her more satisfied and made her poo yellow again instead of green. Of course I'm sure her spitting up all the foremilk and then drinking the hindmilk to fill back up has an impact. 

Saw the pediatrician today. She had a wait and see sort of attitude about it probably because she's gaining weight fine. She also said I should see the lactation consultant again since I got one good latch there. I don't think it will make much difference though. She'll just latch there and not at home again. I've sat in a lactation consultants office 5 times now.


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## Ratchet (Mar 24, 2011)

Try the nipple shield!


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

Got the nipple shield. Tried everything else, so I thought "why not?" So far so good. No choking from my letdown. No clicking. We'll see how it goes.


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## Incubator (May 11, 2006)

Yay! Keep us updated.


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

Somehow she still manages to choke on my milk sometimes even with the shield. She's also still had some forceful spit ups but I think less often. She's been fussy the last few days too so I don't know what else might be bugging her.

Went to the wic clinic to day. Informed them of my postpartum lactose intolerance and they switched me to lactose free milk. I've been using lactose pills to drink milk. Not sure if my new intolerance has anything to do with baby's issues. I think it's mostly a letdown/latch issue.


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## foreverinbluejeans (Jun 21, 2004)

You have been getting lots of advice and it has to be difficult to decide which would be a good fit for you and your baby and who to trust. Some of us have been helping mothers for years as professionals or volunteers and others may have very little breastfeeding knowledge. I see that you have tried nipple shields after several people recommended them. Nipple shields can cause a whole new set of problems. I would encourage you to call the LLL hotline and talk to a La Leche League Leader. Some of the questions that I would ask you about would be if your baby could be getting too much breastmilk, has the doctor checked the baby for medical reasons for the reflux problem, have you tried eliminating cow's milk from your diet for a month to see if that makes a difference, have you tried using only one breast a feeding, have you tried taking the baby off during the letdown. I wouldn't worry too much about minor anatomy problems. An experienced mother with an adequate supply can breastfeed a baby with a mouth that isn't perfect. My second baby had problems with the roof of his mouth. Since you breastfed before I don't think the ties are the issue. I would recommend getting off the nipple shields ASAP and avoiding bottles. If you have to suppliment there are cups or other ways to feed the baby. LLL Leaders offer free help and are trained to look beyond positioning. You can call more than one Leader.


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

Went to the pediatrician for her 2 month checkup. As nothing much had changed from the last visit, she decided that she has reflux. She's having dd2 fitted for a wedge. Apparently I am to place her in it after feedings. I sure hope it comes with a washable cover. Lol. I keep her upright after every feeding and it makes very little difference. It seems to only delay spitting up. If she's going to spit up it seems she'll do it in any position.


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

Well the wedge hasn't made much of a difference. She doesn't really spit up in it, but she does everywhere else, even during feedings. Positioning during feedings has made no difference. She is also getting more and more fussy after feedings. Gad? Some of the spit up smells strongly of stomach acid. Her next appointment is near Christmas, so I guess I'll find out then.


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

myll my dr is still not taking me seriously. So it's time for a new pediatrician. At 4 months of age I should not still be dealing with this amount of projectile vomiting. My first was done with her heavy spitting by now. Plus there's the excessive crying from the painful stomach acid burning her throat. I can tell it's acid reflux too because during these crying sprees a bit of partially digested breastmilk comes up, usually
Just enough to cover her lips.


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

Well this pediatrician listened. She prescribed an antacid to hopefully reduce her painful baby heartburn. She also prescribed something for her rash. It's likely yeast from the antibiotics I was on.


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## Oceanspray (Nov 20, 2014)

I hope you find the final solution; it sounds like you have had a series of interacting issues for your babe. But it always helps to have a caregiver who actually listens and supports what you tell them - this sounds very promising! All the best!!


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

Ratchet said:


> Try the nipple shield!


I did try the shield. It improved things for a week, and then everything went downhill again once she got used to it.

Right now my dd is seeing a new pediatrician and I have her on ranitadine. She spits up much less now, but that's a combo of her age and the medication. She's coming up on 7 months now.


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

Oceanspray said:


> I hope you find the final solution; it sounds like you have had a series of interacting issues for your babe. But it always helps to have a caregiver who actually listens and supports what you tell them - this sounds very promising! All the best!!


Yes she's doing much better now. She still wakes up screaming at times due to reflux, but not as often as before.


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## Incubator (May 11, 2006)

I am glad to hear that things are going a bit better for your little one. What I want to know is how are YOU?


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## funfunkyfantastic (Feb 9, 2008)

Incubator said:


> I am glad to hear that things are going a bit better for your little one. What I want to know is how are YOU?


Well I'm a bit better now that the laundry load is less. These days have their own kind of stress as we're planning a move and getting everything in order. It's long distance... to the other side of the state. Lots of stress!


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## Oceanspray (Nov 20, 2014)

((HUGS)) on getting through the next month or so... it can only get better.... right?!


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## Nmomoftwo (Jun 12, 2016)

I had the similar story and was at my wits end, so I can feel other mother's feeling. After struggling hard and trying lots of remedies finally I got a solution. When I started DS with babies magic tea he started easing and his reflux and gas issues resolved.


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## sarahdawes (Mar 5, 2016)

Didn't want to read and run, sorry it's been tough, hopefully it's getting better now?


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## bububear (Apr 20, 2016)

I hope you are better now!


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