# "That brown guy at school?"



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

My ds was showing me his friends at school and he referred to one of them as "That brown guy is my friend!" (I am not sure what nationality he is-all I know is he isnt white.)

He has also talked about black people. (But not in a derrogatory way or anything-just described people as "black.")

What should I tell him? Should I tell him not to say that?

He is 4.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

honestly, I see nothing wrong with it. He is simply describing his friend. My kids do this as well. I do discuss nationality with them...but really he is simply stating a fact and a description, nothing more.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I wonder if it hurts the kids feelings though?


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## psyche (Apr 6, 2005)

When my son (now five) began describing people by their skin color, we had a talk about using other descriptors to refer to people instead of focusing just on what they look like.


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## KMK_Mama (Jan 29, 2006)

We went through this with my DD too. She was also 4 and in preschool when she started to notice a difference. Ours went a step further though a few months later. She had a substitute in preschool who was black who put my DD in time-out for climbing UP the slide. When DD explained this to me she said the teacher put her in the hot chair. When I asked if the hot chair was time-out she said, "NO, it was a HOT chair!" We are in AZ and this was in August. So, from then on she decided that brown people were mean and didn't like them. She would not be friends with them. I just told her the only difference between her and brown people was skin color and there are "mean" white people too and that personality has nothing to do with skin color. I never made a big deal about it.
She is 5 now and doesn't even mention skin color anymore. In fact, she told me all about this new boy who sits next to her at school and she told me his name and that he was her friend, etc. I never knew he was black until a few weeks later when I met him.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

It all depends on context of course, but it isn't really optimal to be refering to people as the brown one or the black one. So tell your child that. Keep it simple. "Many people don't really like to be talked about in that way, so it's probably better not to. Let's think about some other ways to help mommy figure out who you are talking about." Then talk about clothing references, activity refences, referencing previous stories... (ie, mom, the boy over there in the yellow jacket; remember mom, the boy I told you about who has a pet frog...) And of course you can always try "What is your friends name?" But I realise that's less than a 50% success rate at that age!


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

I have said that we don't talk about what other people look like because some people don't like that. It's in the nature of that age range to describe everyone's appearance ("that brown guy," "look at that fat man," etc.), but they can begin to learn more polite behavior.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi-My DS (almost 6) has said on a number of occasions, "There's my friend so-and-so", and if I don't know who he's referring to he'll say, "The boy with the blue shirt and brown skin". Honestly, I see nothing wrong with this at all. He's using the word as a descriptive adjective and that's what it is. In fact, I heard someone speak one time and she said something about if you don't make it an issue, it won't be (speaking of racial or other differences). There will come a time when he's confronted with larger issues surrounding some of these differences, and we'll discuss that as it comes up.


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## KittyKat (Nov 17, 2002)

When my DS was little, he had a fascination for females with darker skin tone than his. He would point and exclaim "Look mommy! Look at the PRETTY brown lady! I just love that brown lady, she's so pretty!"

"Brown lady" could refer to anyone of African, Hispanic, or Asian descent. I thought it was adorable and never made any effort to redirect him from complimenting "brown ladies" on how pretty they looked! One time an African-American man looked at us funny when DS said this, but he didn't say anything. What was I supposed to do? Tell my sweet little boy not to say that lady looks pretty?

We have had conversations about how people have all different colors of skin, like some people have blue eyes, or brown eyes, or green eyes. Some people have straight hair or curly hair, blonde hair, red hair, black hair, etc. One skin color isn't "better" than another just like one hair or eye color isn't "better."

I don't recall the exact context, or how it came up that some people don't like other people because of features they were born with, but I made it clear that people are beautiful because of who they are inside, not because of what the outside looks like. We've also had to discuss how it's not kind to ask people about their age or their weight because we don't want to hurt their feelings.

I don't think it's necessary to draw his attention to it at age 4. It will probably come up in conversations as he gets older and more able to understand being polite and considerate of others and their feelings. To him, saying someone has brown skin is just like saying someone has curly hair, or blue eyes. Just an observation. Cherish the innocence!


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Ds and I had a talk once about calling people by physical description and I asked him what he would think if someone described him as "that pale little freckled boy" and he said "well I am a pale little freckled boy!" Damn logic. That backfired, I thought for sure he'd latch on to the freckles (he hates them) and understand that it's not necessary to bring up how someone looks to tell a story about them(because he doesn't like his freckles talked about).


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## kmeyrick (Aug 30, 2006)

I work in an innercity school. It bugs the hell out of little kids that black people are called black when they are brown white people when they are peach, redheads when their hair is so clearly orange. They just don't get the nuances yet. They aren't so squicky and uncomfortable.

Maybe we could learn a thing or two from them.


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## PJJ (Sep 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmeyrick* 
I work in an innercity school. It bugs the hell out of little kids that black people are called black when they are brown white people when they are peach, redheads when their hair is so clearly orange. They just don't get the nuances yet. They aren't so squicky and uncomfortable.

Maybe we could learn a thing or two from them.

But when their own race asks, it is Black or White and that is not seen as derogatory, is it?

I guess there are different rules for different people.


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## Teenytoona (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PJJ* 
But when their own race asks, it is Black or White and that is not seen as derogatory, is it?

I guess there are different rules for different people.

I think she is referring to them being annoyed that the color "black" isn't an accurate description, it's more "brown" also white folks aren't crayon white, they're a sort of peachy color. Red haired people's hair is more akin to orange-brown. Kids see colors as basically their crayon box says.

It reminds me, last week at my MW's her little girl (age 5) came in and asked Mr Toona "why are you brown?" and he asked her if she liked to color, of course she said yes, and asked if she liked to use alot of different colors or just one color, she said lots of colors, naturally. He said that's how God likes the world, with things and people in all different colors. She seemed to be pretty deep in thought on that one. (Cute little gal). But it was such an adorable conversation. Kids at that age are just learning about differences, I don't think addressing the differences assigns a good/bad value to them. It's when they hear they differences as good or bad that they start learning something like that. But just to notice the differences in colors isn't inherently bad.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

My kids go to a school that is mostly black, they refer to people as having "dark skin, "brown skin," "light skin." I see no problem with it. It's no different from talking about hair color for identification purposes.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa* 
Ds and I had a talk once about calling people by physical description and I asked him what he would think if someone described him as "that pale little freckled boy" and he said "well I am a pale little freckled boy!" Damn logic. That backfired, I thought for sure he'd latch on to the freckles (he hates them) and understand that it's not necessary to bring up how someone looks to tell a story about them(because he doesn't like his freckles talked about).

The kids may very well like their brown skin. Comparing the skin of POC to an attribute you son doesn't like doesn't seem like a good teaching tool.

I don't find this talk from kids offensive -although I have had that gut embarrassment when my kids say it- and you'll find that kids will pick something that is different between them and the other person to use as a descriptor. ...and being kids they'll grab the most obvious one instead of sitting there thinking of how to be "colorblind".


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

I don't think it is offensive or wrong, given the age.

FWIW, we refer to everyone as "flesh toned". My kids are always asking what color their skin is, to which I reply " flesh-toned"


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## somasoul (Mar 30, 2003)

What's wrong with being "brown" or "white" or "black". People are different. Their skins are different. Their noses are different. They have different eyes. We are engineered differently.

Is there something wrong with that?

At 27 and 5'4 I've always been called "This little guy". Is it annoying? Not really. Is it true? Yes.

We live in a PC world where people want to eliminate differences. But people don't want them eliminated. I'm happy being White and Italian. And I'm sure others are proud to be Asian and Japanese and brown.

Kids don't think these things are rude. Rudeness is something our culture instills in them. They are not moral absolutes like Murder or Rape. Calling someone "brown" is only morally reprehensible because someone somewhere decided it to be so.

And those people..........well.........they're wrong (unless of course there's something "wrong" with being brown........which, of course, there isn't.).


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmeyrick* 
I work in an innercity school. It bugs the hell out of little kids that black people are called black when they are brown white people when they are peach, redheads when their hair is so clearly orange. They just don't get the nuances yet. They aren't so squicky and uncomfortable.









Ds describes himself as peachy-pink and me as pinkish-yellow. His grandma (don't get me started







) for some reason felt the need to point out to him that he's white. He was telling me this and said, "but I'm not white!







" Yep, he's not white.

Personally, I stay away from the "black and white" labels (and actively discourage them) because they're inaccurate, loaded social constructs. I don't see a big deal with children perceiving skin color. We still talk about skin color sometimes, even now that he's 7 and used to seeing people of different colors, and always in a positive way. He thinks that brown skin is beautiful.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Maybe I am misremembering... it was my distinct impression in the past when this subject came up that people who had spent much of their life being refered to this way weren' t particularly happy about it.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama* 
The kids may very well like their brown skin. Comparing the skin of POC to an attribute you son doesn't like doesn't seem like a good teaching tool.

I don't find this talk from kids offensive -although I have had that gut embarrassment when my kids say it- and you'll find that kids will pick something that is different between them and the other person to use as a descriptor. ...and being kids they'll grab the most obvious one instead of sitting there thinking of how to be "colorblind".

I used it as an example because there are many other ways to describe a person, not using their skin as a descriptor.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama* 
Maybe I am misremembering... it was my distinct impression in the past when this subject came up that people who had spent much of their life being refered to this way weren' t particularly happy about it.

kama,

Were people upset about it coming from kids or from adults who'd passed the "captain obvious" stage?


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa* 
I used it as an example because there are many other ways to describe a person, not using their skin as a descriptor.

I understand why you used that I'm just saying that an comparing skin color to undesirable (not really but in the is example) traits may not be the best way to go in the long run.


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## I STIK M (Dec 12, 2004)

ds is 3 1/2 and thinks some people are "like mommy", meaning asian, and some" like daddy", meaning big and fat. or, if he sees them eating bacon, then they are like daddy- hence, why he is fat. i am medium. if you are bigger than i but not as large as dh , then u are way medium, or too medium. you can also be left tan - ds's lighter arm in the summer, away from the car window, or right tan- much darker- as a color. he also calls everyone "he", except girls he thinks are pretty, they are pink - despite their race- because he likes the color pink. kids just describe as they see it, it is innocent. the other day, a child asked me if i was ds grandma - he was with his grandma- and she was so embarrassed, but i was not. i must look old to a 5 yr old! and they do say it is hard to tell an asians age....


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama* 
Maybe I am misremembering... it was my distinct impression in the past when this subject came up that people who had spent much of their life being refered to this way weren' t particularly happy about it.

Kama'aina-Do you by any chance have a link to this particular thread? I'd be interested to read it. This is an intriguing discussion, IMO, about how and when the discussion of differences really begins.


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## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

I have to say as African American mom raising African American children, I don't like how color is used in a descriptive manner for people. It spills over into an adult behavior that is so terribly annoying to me. When some caucasian people describe other causcian people they don't use race as a description. But if reference is made to a person that is not caucasian than race or color has to be mentioned. To me, it implies other than normal.
So for my kids we don't do it. My oldest is 14 and coloring is not used as a way to define a person. He has mentioned that friends have done it and again it's a discomfort. Imagine hearing, "the black guy". Not a guy as any other guy, but the black guy. This lends itself to so many "other than normal" sentiments such as he's cute for a black guy.
Sorry, I am speaking from the heart and I can see my emotion perhaps going beyond where OP expected.
Bowing out gracefully
Yinsum


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Yinsum-Thank you for this







I think it's hard for many of us to think about how we're going to approach these issues. When my DS has used "brown" to describe a friend I haven't met that I wouldn't immediately recognize, I haven't corrected him. And I also haven't encouraged it, either. I just sort of let it go... I'm wondering what's right.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

I don't see anything wrong with a child describing someone buy their color.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teenytoona* 
It reminds me, last week at my MW's her little girl (age 5) came in and asked Mr Toona "why are you brown?" and he asked her if she liked to color, of course she said yes, and asked if she liked to use alot of different colors or just one color, she said lots of colors, naturally. He said that's how God likes the world, with things and people in all different colors. She seemed to be pretty deep in thought on that one. (Cute little gal). But it was such an adorable conversation. Kids at that age are just learning about differences, I don't think addressing the differences assigns a good/bad value to them. It's when they hear they differences as good or bad that they start learning something like that. But just to notice the differences in colors isn't inherently bad.









: I totally agree....what a beautiful story









Take care,
Tara


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## boodafli (May 28, 2005)

small children, who are clearly just learning their colors, it doesn't bug me. kids who are old enough to have had the 'we choose other descriptors besides race' conversation, yeah it bugs me, cuz it smacks of either laziness, or privelege on the part of the parents.

my kid is 2.5, and she knows how to describe people in ways other than color. but we've had to teach her about race, and stuff, cuz she's bi-racial in the south. i don't have the luxury of NOT talking about race with her this young.

as a POC, i totally and wholeheartedly agree with Yinsum, and i will give her a big ole yeah that, cuz i am sure i cannot say it better.


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## jrayn (Jul 6, 2005)

my opinion is that at the younger ages, children are just describing what they see, like quite a few others here have already stated - my dd1 just the other day asked me what color she is, I answered that she was a tan color, then she asked me what color I was, I said, a lighter tan color.
As far as older children and adults, I don't like it unless it is absolutely necessary, to figure out who one is, if I hear someone (depending on who it is/how well I know the person) use that as a descriptor it catches my attention right away, puts me on guard, like "please don't say anything that is going to piss me off!"
I'm not sure if it is a good thing to bring up the fact that it possibly could be insulting to someone for them to be referred to by their color, b/c really it shouldn't be.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

For those of you who teach your children that it's not okay to use skin color as one descriptor, I'm curious to know how you teach them that without signaling that there is something wrong with people being different colors. Kids are incredibly perceptive and pick up on what you don't say just as much as what you do... I'm trying to figure out how that works.

I'm also wondering if it's not okay, then, to notice skin color at all. For example, if my very light-skinned son thinks a person's brown skin is beautiful, is he not allowed to say so? Is it hurtful to point that out?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yinsum*
When some caucasian people describe other causcian people they don't use race as a description.

I don't know that that's necessarily true. I suppose it is if we're talking about race... but are we actually talking about race, or are we talking about skin color? When we are describing someone, we'll talk about the lightness or darkness of their skin color, no matter what their race. We know some people who are preternaturally pale and some people with deep, olive complexions. Their skin color is a good descriptor to use because it's easily described (as opposed to my skin color which doesn't have a good descriptor in the common vernacular) and something that people would be likely to notice about them. Talking about skin color is different than talking about race, IMO. It actually seems to me to be a good way of celebrating the beauty of differences without perpetuating loaded ideas about race (the way the terms "white" and "black" do).

Maybe that's splitting hairs. It's interesting to think about, anyway. I wouldn't presume to tell people who have experienced racial discrimination how they should feel about this. I'm just not sure that we're all talking about the same thing, for one. And I'm also not sure that there is a way to raise children who don't talk about variations in skin color without instilling in them some idea that there is something bad about those variations.


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## jrayn (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
I don't know that that's necessarily true. I suppose it is if we're talking about race... but are we actually talking about race, or are we talking about skin color? When we are describing someone, we'll talk about the lightness or darkness of their skin color, no matter what their race. We know some people who are preternaturally pale and some people with deep, olive complexions. Their skin color is a good descriptor to use because it's easily described (as opposed to my skin color which doesn't have a good descriptor in the common vernacular) and something that people would be likely to notice about them. Talking about skin color is different than talking about race, IMO. It actually seems to me to be a good way of celebrating the beauty of differences without perpetuating loaded ideas about race (the way the terms "white" and "black" do).










:


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## CallMeKelly (May 8, 2007)

When it is the first thing someone says to describe a person...
"who ?" " the black guy" it bugs the hell out of me and gives me the impression that mentally the speaker sees that person first as black and then as a person... but if they begin with something else ... "who?" "you know, Jim the guy who runs the committee... " nope, not picturing him" "well he has dark skin and light eyes" I don't get mentally buggy about it.

Kinda silly as it really puts an unsubstantiated bias against what are probably innocent people but still, that is the impression I get.

So when my kids are older (certainly not at 3yo) I will probably discuss with them that they should try to describe people by their attributes first and only if that fails by their pysical appearance.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

there is nothing inherently wrong with describing someone by appearance, but it is annoying when someone has one attribute that he is always being described as. it is annoying to always, always be 'the [fillintheblank] guy' and never any of your other characteristics. it's like when you're the younger sibling of someone whom everyone knows, so you're always 'you know, joe's sister' and never _you_.


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

I dunno, here in PR we describe people by their skin color all the time. People here range from African dark to pale pale white in skin color. El trigueño, la morena, el negrito, la jincha. No one gets offended because if they are pale, they're pale, or if they're dark, they're dark. There is even a beauty contest called Miss Piel Morena, which is for women of darker color. Maybe we're just not as uptight about it as the gringos


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yinsum* 
I have to say as African American mom raising African American children, I don't like how color is used in a descriptive manner for people. It spills over into an adult behavior that is so terribly annoying to me. When some caucasian people describe other causcian people they don't use race as a description. But if reference is made to a person that is not caucasian than race or color has to be mentioned. To me, it implies other than normal.
So for my kids we don't do it. My oldest is 14 and coloring is not used as a way to define a person. He has mentioned that friends have done it and again it's a discomfort. Imagine hearing, "the black guy". Not a guy as any other guy, but the black guy. This lends itself to so many "other than normal" sentiments such as he's cute for a black guy.
Sorry, I am speaking from the heart and I can see my emotion perhaps going beyond where OP expected.
Bowing out gracefully
Yinsum

Thank you for saying this. Reading this thread as a Black woman I found myself getting slightly miffed but really not able to articulate why, but you really summed up what I was feeling.

Shay


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yinsum* 
When some caucasian people describe other causcian people they don't use race as a description. But if reference is made to a person that is not caucasian than race or color has to be mentioned. To me, it implies other than normal.

It makes perfect sense to me why my 4 yr old doesn't call the other kids white. Because there are like 20 of them and only one that is different.









If it was a room full of black kids and one white one-I think it would be the other way around. KWIM?

I dont know why adults do it.

Anyways,
It is interesting to hear so many different opinions on the subject...(Except I was hoping to get one *right* answer! LOL)

I could care less about the PC Police or how people view my ds or me for the action.

What I _DO_ care about is the boy. And his family. I do not know what their personal experiences with racism are-and *that* is what I want to be sensitive to.

Anyone know of good childrens books relating to the subject of race? That might be a great starting point!


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## PJJ (Sep 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yinsum* 
I have to say as African American mom raising African American children, I don't like how color is used in a descriptive manner for people. It spills over into an adult behavior that is so terribly annoying to me. When some caucasian people describe other causcian people they don't use race as a description. But if reference is made to a person that is not caucasian than race or color has to be mentioned. To me, it implies other than normal.
So for my kids we don't do it. My oldest is 14 and coloring is not used as a way to define a person. He has mentioned that friends have done it and again it's a discomfort. Imagine hearing, "the black guy". Not a guy as any other guy, but the black guy. This lends itself to so many "other than normal" sentiments such as he's cute for a black guy.
Sorry, I am speaking from the heart and I can see my emotion perhaps going beyond where OP expected.
Bowing out gracefully
Yinsum

And when blacks talk about others, they mention white. So that is outside the norm for them too.
I have noticed that all races/ethnicities mention this if it is noteworthy in a conversation.


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## cool_mom (Mar 20, 2005)

You might want to ask his name. That would help you figure out the boy's nationality.


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## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

I suppose since I have been quoted several times, I should respond. I did earlier say I would bow out because this is a very sensitive issue for me. But here goes:

Dragonfly in response to how my children describe others. Dh and I made a conscious effort before having children that their world would be very multicutural. At parties, family and friendly get togethers people often comment on how we ressemble a mini UN. Do to that variety on such a regular basis description by skin color has not seemed like an option to our kids. They may point out characteristics such as grandma has freckles. Or your friend with long locs or with bright red hair.
When my oldest was 4 (in preschool) we had not spoken about race much. He came home sad and confused one day because a child said to him, "my mom says I can be your friend even if you are a brown boy". Now the little boy who said this is loving and was more than likely using his 4 year old words to express that love. You can't fault him for that. But the message to my son was ~ you are different/ strange. If someone out there is a mom of a child of color, you understand how this hits their inner being.

Dragonfly I agree with you that perhaps the discussion is about two different things (1) race (2) skin color.

Transformed we have two social settings in particular were a caucasian family is the minority and I can only speak for my household making reference to them is not by race. Forgive that I had to mention race here, but it was for sake of example.

These questions bring me to why mentioning race bugs me in adult conversation. In my life, I have had many examples of someone telling a story and needing to mention the race when it has no bearing (sp?) whatsoever on the story. It wasn't for description sake! But I think it's a behavior that started somewhere. As a black woman listening to such stories where others are conveyed as people and then there is a part where Bill a black guy did blah blah blah...







: I feel like why did we need to know Bill was black? For me, it has a terrible sting.

PJJ I want to ask that you see in my original post, I said some caucasian people do... I would appreciate the same from you by saying some black people. Your description sounds like all and I do not fit into the box which you have drawn.

Yes my children are aware of the beauty of other skin tones and cultures. But we are mindful of how we convey our stoies in ways that are respectful. Perhaps it was the experience my son had a such a young age that it has always stayed with him. And he has helped in modeling for his siblings ways to describe people.
Children are innocent and learning their world as best they can. I just hope as adults we guide them in a way that is respectful of all people.


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## greeny (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:

These questions bring me to why mentioning race bugs me in adult conversation. In my life, I have had many examples of someone telling a story and needing to mention the race when it has no bearing (sp?) whatsoever on the story. It wasn't for description sake! But I think it's a behavior that started somewhere. As a black woman listening to such stories where others are conveyed as people and then there is a part where Bill a black guy did blah blah blah... I feel like why did we need to know Bill was black? For me, it has a terrible sting.
That kind of thing really bothers me too.

But if it's for description's sake, is it okay? Let's say I'm sending my husband into a church meeting to drop something off for me. He doesn't know the people by name, so I might tell him, "This needs to go to Leslie. She's tall, thin, wears glasses, has short black hair, and has dark skin." Or, if there aren't any other black people at the meeting, is it okay to simply say, "She's a black woman"? If the fact that she has dark skin or is black would help him identify her, should I still leave it out because it's offensive and better to describe people based on other characteristics? (I'm asking this genuinely, not to be snarky!)


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Yinsum, thank you for your insightful and thought provoking posts.

Quote:

*Children are innocent and learning their world as best they can. I just hope as adults we guide them in a way that is respectful of all people.*


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yinsum* 
But the message to my son was ~ you are different/ strange. If someone out there is a mom of a child of color, you understand how this hits their inner being.









I think any mom can understand that, though I'm sure it's especially poignant in the case where the "strange" thing about your child is something unchangeable and something that people have and do still discriminate against.

Quote:

These questions bring me to why mentioning race bugs me in adult conversation. In my life, I have had many examples of someone telling a story and needing to mention the race when it has no bearing (sp?) whatsoever on the story. It wasn't for description sake! But I think it's a behavior that started somewhere. As a black woman listening to such stories where others are conveyed as people and then there is a part where Bill a black guy did blah blah blah...







: I feel like why did we need to know Bill was black? For me, it has a terrible sting.
I get this. Completely.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.


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## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 
That kind of thing really bothers me too.

If the fact that she has dark skin or is black would help him identify her, should I still leave it out because it's offensive and better to describe people based on other characteristics? (I'm asking this genuinely, not to be snarky!)

I trust that you are not being snarky. Perhaps for me because I am sensitive to the matter, I would just rather not be present to hear. For me I think if you (not meaning you directly) had to describe her and she were white you would call on your senses to describe her as best you can. Something about saying the black woman- says to me that's where the description stops no need to see her beyond she is a black woman. Does that make any sense? Based on my experiences that's where it usually ends.
Also Greeny I want to acknowledge in your example, I thank you because you also gave description beyond she is the black woman at our church and in that it shows that you are attempting see her and call on others to see her beyond the black woman in our congregation.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:

I suppose since I have been quoted several times, I should respond. I did earlier say I would bow out because this is a very sensitive issue for me. But here goes:

Dragonfly in response to how my children describe others. Dh and I made a conscious effort before having children that their world would be very multicutural. At parties, family and friendly get togethers people often comment on how we ressemble a mini UN. Do to that variety on such a regular basis description by skin color has not seemed like an option to our kids. They may point out characteristics such as grandma has freckles. Or your friend with long locs or with bright red hair.
When my oldest was 4 (in preschool) we had not spoken about race much. He came home sad and confused one day because a child said to him, "my mom says I can be your friend even if you are a brown boy". Now the little boy who said this is loving and was more than likely using his 4 year old words to express that love. You can't fault him for that. But the message to my son was ~ you are different/ strange. If someone out there is a mom of a child of color, you understand how this hits their inner being.

Dragonfly I agree with you that perhaps the discussion is about two different things (1) race (2) skin color.

Transformed we have two social settings in particular were a caucasian family is the minority and I can only speak for my household making reference to them is not by race. Forgive that I had to mention race here, but it was for sake of example.

These questions bring me to why mentioning race bugs me in adult conversation. In my life, I have had many examples of someone telling a story and needing to mention the race when it has no bearing (sp?) whatsoever on the story. It wasn't for description sake! But I think it's a behavior that started somewhere. As a black woman listening to such stories where others are conveyed as people and then there is a part where Bill a black guy did blah blah blah... I feel like why did we need to know Bill was black? For me, it has a terrible sting.

PJJ I want to ask that you see in my original post, I said some caucasian people do... I would appreciate the same from you by saying some black people. Your description sounds like all and I do not fit into the box which you have drawn.

Yes my children are aware of the beauty of other skin tones and cultures. But we are mindful of how we convey our stoies in ways that are respectful. Perhaps it was the experience my son had a such a young age that it has always stayed with him. And he has helped in modeling for his siblings ways to describe people.
Children are innocent and learning their world as best they can. I just hope as adults we guide them in a way that is respectful of all people.

Yinsum, great post. Thank you for adding your experiences to the conversation.


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## greeny (Apr 27, 2007)

Thank you, Yinsum.







I completely see what you are saying. I do strive not to use color in describing people, and I will continue to do so.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Yinsum and Shay, thank you very much for your view. It's funny, though, because our experience, mine and my husband's, is slightly different here, in some ways. I was the only white student in my major and in all of my classes in college. I was fairly active on campus, and if someone wanted to describe me, to point me out to someone else, I was the "white girl". Sometimes I was the "short white girl", not because there was another white girl, but because I'm also very short. Another descriptor really wasn't necessary because it was pretty darn clear who I was.

Now, things are different. We homeschool and there are very few families of color around here who homeschool. We do notice when there is another black family, and it's a relief. Sometimes, too often, my kids are the tokens and they get a lot of attention for that, with people talking constantly about how beautiful they are, how pretty their skin is, and how gorgeous their hair is. There are kids who don't get much exposure to other children of color and they often go on and on and on about how beautiful brown skin is and how much they love brown skin, and it leaves me wondering about the conversations at home, that maybe their parents are pushing the "brown is beautiful" message a little too hard. And so, by trying to "normalize" brown skin when--in their reality--they don't see it much, it becomes more exotic. Which is, in its own way, racist.

At work, my husband is a black man in a profession that is dominated by women, mostly white women. He's excellent at his job and is often chosen to attend outside functions or seminars, but it does make him wonder when he's chosen as a token, so he notices when there are other blacks there, especially black men. And it does often come into our conversations later.

We very seldom, though, use "black" or "white" as the only descriptive. We might describe someone as a "black woman", but we also refer to skin tone and hair style and color, and, if we're talking about someone on a specific day, clothing. For example, if he's talking about someone at work, and I ask, "Now who is that again?" and he'll describe her.

But when a descriptive isn't necessary to a conversation, if you wouldn't use one if the person were white, you need to step back and wonder why you're using one if a person is black. Or Latino.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cool_mom* 
You might want to ask his name. That would help you figure out the boy's nationality.

His name is Santana.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I am a little bit confused-because I remember in some of the more heated race issue threads a few months ago, being "colorblind" was actually considered a bad thing. But I feel like the consensus among several people here is that we dont use color or race to describe people. So essentially, I would be teaching my child to be colorblind.

Someone please clairify this for me.

Colorblind? Or Not?


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## rambunctiouscurls (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
And so, by trying to "normalize" brown skin when--in their reality--they don't see it much, it becomes more exotic. Which is, in its own way, racist.

Ok, I struggle with this too. Like your children and my dd, I too look "ambiguous" PPl don't usually describe me as the "black girl" but the exotic looking one. It has bothered me to be described as exotic but I never realized it was racist. Why did it bother me? Because there are billions of ppl in the world who look like me, I'm certainly NOT exotic.

ETA: In a way it proved to me how desperate ppl are to describe others by race...and if you can't figure out what race they are or they obviously looks mixed, they are the "exotic" one.
Ironically, most ppl don't feel the need to describe some one who is white of their race. so an exercise in Psych that we did was to make an effort not to point out race or sexual orientation when talking about some one especially when it has no bearing on the conversation.


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## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I am a little bit confused-because I remember in some of the more heated race issue threads a few months ago, being "colorblind" was actually considered a bad thing. But I feel like the consensus among several people here is that we dont use color or race to describe people. So essentially, I would be teaching my child to be colorblind.

Someone please clairify this for me.

Colorblind? Or Not?

I think I know what you are talking about. In my opinion, I would rather not have the sum total of my being be wrapped up in oh the black woman. If people would take a moment to see me even if I were the only black woman in a particular setting I would appreciate it.

Honestly, this feels like a baited question.
Of course, you should teach your children about the many people of the world. And you explore the differences.
As I have said children are innocent and are working with what they have. But as we get older, we need to be conscious of how important is it to use race to describe a person in conveying a message. What's our motivation for using race? And yes the same question can be applied if explore why won't I see a person's race and it's relevant to an issue. What's our motivation?


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommy2Amira* 
Ok, I struggle with this too. Like your children and my dd, I too look "ambiguous" PPl don't usually describe me as the "black girl" but the exotic looking one. It has bothered me to be described as exotic but I never realized it was racist. Why did it bother me? Because there are billions of ppl in the world who look like me, I'm certainly NOT exotic.

ETA: In a way it proved to me how desperate ppl are to describe others by race...and if you can't figure out what race they are or they obviously looks mixed, they are the "exotic" one.
.

Just because not everyone knows all the different nationalitys by feature difference, doesn't mean that they are describing someone as "exotic."

I certainly don't know what the nationalitys of white people are either. And I don't really care what their nationalitys are either.







:

I don't think it's racist not to know what someone's nationality is. And if people use stupid words-then thats just a matter of educating them. Where is your normal everyday average person going to get an education on what's ok and whats not? You can't just assume that people know what words are ok and what words aren't. I would encourage you to speak up because those people probably have NO idea they are offending you.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Just because not everyone knows all the different nationalitys by feature difference, doesn't mean that they are describing someone as "exotic."

I certainly don't know what the nationalitys of white people are either. And I don't really care what their nationalitys are either.







:

I don't think it's racist not to know what someone's nationality is. And if people use stupid words-then thats just a matter of educating them. Where is your normal everyday average person going to get an education on what's ok and whats not? You can't just assume that people know what words are ok and what words aren't. I would encourage you to speak up because those people probably have NO idea they are offending you.









There is so much wrong in this post I'm not really sure where to start. Umm...Okay. Most offensive statement, one that honestly caught in my throat when I read it: "your normal everyday average person".

WTFH?? _*"your normal everyday average person".?!?!?*_







:

My kids, my husband, are NORMAL. They are EVERYDAY. They are AVERAGE. (not to me, but generally speaking). That is exactly where the problem is. THAT is what Yinsum what trying to convey--if you use white as the constant default, then everyone else is not normal, not everyday, not average. And that leads to bigotry. It contributes to systemic racism because you just defined anyone who isn't white as not normal. Do you see that???


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Continuing...Mommy2Amira said, in her post that you quoted, that people refer to her as exotic. She didn't make it up. She didn't _assume_ that people were describing her that way because they can't determine her nationality. She said nothing about nationality, in fact. She said she _is_ described that way.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *psyche* 
When my son (now five) began describing people by their skin color, we had a talk about using other descriptors to refer to people instead of focusing just on what they look like.

I've thought about that too, but if my child is point out a kid on the playground that is his friend I'm not going to have any idea who "the kid who tells the funny jokes" is going to be. KWIM? Good description, but sometimes there is a need for physical call outs as well.

Kids point out physical characteristics. I don't see any reason to tell them to do anything otherwise right now.


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffer23* 
I've thought about that too, but if my child is point out a kid on the playground that is his friend I'm not going to have any idea who "the kid who tells the funny jokes" is going to be. KWIM? Good description, but sometimes there is a need for physical call outs as well.

*Kids point out physical characteristics. I don't see any reason to tell them to do anything otherwise right now*.


Me neither. We live in a pretty multicultural area and my ds often includes details of skin colour in his descriptions. There is nothing wrong with that - I do it too. It is just a description, people describe me as "white, 5ft5, slim build"..if I am describing someone I nearly always include their race. I don't see the problem?


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Just because not everyone knows all the different nationalitys by feature difference, doesn't mean that they are describing someone as "exotic."

I certainly don't know what the nationalitys of white people are either. And I don't really care what their nationalitys are either.







:

I don't think it's racist not to know what someone's nationality is. And if people use stupid words-then thats just a matter of educating them. Where is your normal everyday average person going to get an education on what's ok and whats not? You can't just assume that people know what words are ok and what words aren't. I would encourage you to speak up because those people probably have NO idea they are offending you.

To be honest when you say things like your normal everyday average person, as a WOC there seems to be an implication that I am not normal...














:, hello... I am an average everyday person, I also happen to be a WOC. As far as where you get this supposed education, well I am married to a white man who grew up not really spending any time around POC but he knew to treat me like a human first and foremost, not some exotic being..

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 







There is so much wrong in this post I'm not really sure where to start. Umm...Okay. Most offensive statement, one that honestly caught in my throat when I read it: "your normal everyday average person".

WTFH?? _*"your normal everyday average person".?!?!?*_







:

My kids, my husband, are NORMAL. They are EVERYDAY. They are AVERAGE. (not to me, but generally speaking). That is exactly where the problem is. THAT is what Yinsum what trying to convey--if you use white as the constant default, then everyone else is not normal, not everyday, not average. And that leads to bigotry. It contributes to systemic racism because you just defined anyone who isn't white as not normal. Do you see that???

ITA w/what you said here...

Shay


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 







There is so much wrong in this post I'm not really sure where to start. Umm...Okay. Most offensive statement, one that honestly caught in my throat when I read it: "your normal everyday average person".

WTFH?? _*"your normal everyday average person".?!?!?*_







:

My kids, my husband, are NORMAL. They are EVERYDAY. They are AVERAGE. (not to me, but generally speaking). That is exactly where the problem is. THAT is what Yinsum what trying to convey--if you use white as the constant default, then everyone else is not normal, not everyday, not average. And that leads to bigotry. It contributes to systemic racism because you just defined anyone who isn't white as not normal. Do you see that???


I didnt disclude anyone in my "normal average" statment. You did. I didnt use a race descriptor, did I? Sounds like you made that assumption all on your own.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
To be honest when you say things like your normal everyday average person, as a WOC there seems to be an implication that I am not normal...














:, hello... I am an average everyday person, I also happen to be a WOC. As far as where you get this supposed education, well I am married to a white man who grew up not really spending any time around POC but he knew to treat me like a human first and foremost, not some exotic being..

ITA w/what you said here...

Shay

IMO, you and Missy are assuming that I mean ONLY white people have stupid words for describing people. I didnt say that at all.

Or if you are *not* white, do you automaticly come programmed with the perfect ways to talk to _every_ nationality without offending them?


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I think the solution is to continue teaching ds how TO treat people, rather than how NOT to.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

You can twist it around any way you want, justify it however it feels best to you, but your meaning was clear based on what we were discussing and you're not going to throw it back at us.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
You can twist it around any way you want, justify it however it feels best to you, but your meaning was clear based on what we were discussing and you're not going to throw it back at us.

I didn't imply anything about race in my post.

I am not the one twisting it. You are.

You can _choose_ to be offended OR you can _choose_ to take my post at face value. (which is what I feel that you should do.)


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Never mind. Not worth it.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

Throw me in as another woman of colour who hates it when people describe others by their race first and foremost. I grew up in a very multicultural city, in the inner city of this city and there were plenty of races, nationalities, cultures, languages and ethnicities to learn from. However I can't really ever remember us kids running around describing one another as "That black kid" or the "Chinese girl". We were just Joy, Lucy, Sean, Yin Yin, Kenneth, Jomo etc.

Kids are going to notice at some point or another that people do have different skin colours, but I think early exposure (like right from the get-go) and age appropriate discussions about different skin tones, hair types, facial characteristics play a really big role. As kids get older, you can then introduce topics like whether it's okay to be colourblind, why some people use racist words within their groups, but why it's not okay for others to use them, etc. But at 4, it's a bit of a big topic, and I think a lot of the discussion is being mixed up, with what's appropriate for a 4 year old, vs much larger topics, that should probably be introduced to kids at a later stage.

Teaching kids about race and racism is a big topic, it has many layers, and to start from the get-go, I think the foundation is, that all people even though they look different, should be treated equally. Which means in this context, if you're not prone to say "Well, I have a friend, she's white, and we did this and this and this yesterday", you need to extend that to all races and teach your children to as well.







And if you do include someone's race in every discussion, it's might be worth examining why, because around these parts, it would just be weird. lol


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## azfiresmbm (Sep 23, 2007)

I come from a large all caucasian family and 2 of my sisters married African Americans..
Actually if you talk to my brother-in-laws one will say he is African American (because his Father came here from Africa) .. The other brother in law will call himself Black because he's never been to Africa (his words not mine) ..
My nephew says he's not black he's brown .

I myself don't understand the whole white, black way of describing people Basically because we are not white nor are we black, we are human beings !
I'll admit that I have called myself "the White girl" out of fun..
Because sometimes I do act like the stereotypical "white girl" !!!

Back to the original question !!
I know for my children if they came to me to describe someone by the color of their skin I would first , tell them that I don't see anyone with that exact color around here (thinking of the Crayola color)
I would ask for more descriptions like type of shirt or pant color or even hair color...
I would NOT tell them that they did anything wrong by describing that other person with a color but I WOULD gently steer them into a new way of describing someone !!!! Children lead by example !!!!

For me this issue has not come up because so far my children use other ways of describing their friends ...


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## rambunctiouscurls (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
Continuing...Mommy2Amira said, in her post that you quoted, that people refer to her as exotic. She didn't make it up. She didn't _assume_ that people were describing her that way because they can't determine her nationality. She said nothing about nationality, in fact. She said she _is_ described that way.

Yes. thank you. I never assumed it. The first time I actually heard being referred to as exotic, I went







but I quickly got used to it, because I have been called that exact word more times than I can count. Also, once I realized why it bothered me, I did speak up. I do laugh and point out how ridiculous it is since so many ppl in the world look like me. but I certainly don't agree that I'm supposed to educate every ignorant person out there. It's not my Job. One of the reasons I fell in love with my DP (who happens to be white, btw) is exactly because he treats me and everyone else as a human being first, and foremost and not as some exotic creature.
He does not feel the need to describe POC and LGBTQ's by their race or sexual orientation.

Also, transformed, no one said only POC are the ones who are "programmed" to refer to ppl in a way that doesn't offend them. For some of us, it just helps to put ourselves in everyone's shoes I guess.

Before the exercise I mentioned earlier, I too was guilty of saying things like, "my gay friend E... or my Asian friend etc.." until I realized for lack of a better term, the error of my ways and especially how it made me feel when referred to as the exotic one.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:

but I certainly don't agree that I'm supposed to educate every ignorant person out there. It's not my Job. One of the reasons I fell in love with my DP (who happens to be white, btw) is exactly because he treats me and everyone else as a human being first, and foremost and not as some exotic creature.
True, but I dont see a point in getting mad at people for being ignorant, it sucks...but unless someone tells them they are acting stupid-they may have no idea that they are! (And then there are people who are racist out of choice...and those people really really really suck)

And I think its awesome that your dh rocks! We should all strive to treat ALL people as human beings FIRST.

Quote:

I know for my children if they came to me to describe someone by the color of their skin I would first , tell them that I don't see anyone with that exact color around here (thinking of the Crayola color)
I would ask for more descriptions like type of shirt or pant color or even hair color...
I would NOT tell them that they did anything wrong by describing that other person with a color but I WOULD gently steer them into a new way of describing someone !!!! Children lead by example !!!!
Oh, thats an awesome idea. My ds also has refered to "black" people too.

Its really weird because racial words dont even enter our home...BUT he is 4-so is around other people all the time too. Namely my parents. And my parents use racial words to describe people all the time. I dont think they are hateful or racist per se...Well, they might be-just not the swastika carrying kind. The kind that wouldnt think they are racist, but the actually are. I dont really know that i can do much about that. They usually dont talk that way in front of me. But I remember it as a child.


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## SaraGriffin (Nov 19, 2007)

I don't think it's insulting to say someone is Black or White or Asian, etc. If you show your child at this age that they have to tiptoe around race then it just perpetuates the current problems. Yes, different races are different looking and that is one of the ways to help describe someone.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
True, but I dont see a point in getting mad at people for being ignorant, it sucks...but unless someone tells them they are acting stupid-they may have no idea that they are! (And then there are people who are racist out of choice...and those people really really really suck)

But the problem is that, after a while, it gets tiring. Exhausting, overwhelming, frustrating. Especially when you are saying the same things to the same people over and over again, and they won't _listen_ long enough to absorb what is said. At some point, ignorance becomes a deliberate choice. At some point, you lose your patience and your desire to educate because you can't do the _work_ for someone else.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
But the problem is that, after a while, it gets tiring. Exhausting, overwhelming, frustrating. Especially when you are saying the same things to the same people over and over again, and they won't _listen_ long enough to absorb what is said. At some point, ignorance becomes a deliberate choice. At some point, you lose your patience and your desire to educate because you can't do the _work_ for someone else.

I am sorry you are exausted. I would imagine that is often the case when fighting for something you belive in.

I get exausted too, in fighting for my causes. We all do.


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## Jessviola (Jun 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Just because not everyone knows all the different nationalitys by feature difference, doesn't mean that they are describing someone as "exotic."

While exotic may be intended as a compliment, it includes by definition 'different'. It is used to describe somebody who is different from what they are used to seeing. This singles the 'exotic' person out and further alienates them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
And if people use stupid words-then thats just a matter of educating them.

It's not that simple. Some people are very difficult to educate and/or don't want to educate themselves

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joyster* 
Throw me in as another woman of colour who hates it when people describe others by their race first and foremost.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommy2Amira* 
Yes. thank you. I never assumed it. The first time I actually heard being referred to as exotic, I went







but I quickly got used to it, because I have been called that exact word more times than I can count. Also, once I realized why it bothered me, I did speak up.

Is the fact that POC repeatedly state that they are bothered by being referred to in this way not enough to make those doing the describing want to change?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
True, but I dont see a point in getting mad at people for being ignorant, it sucks...but unless someone tells them they are acting stupid-they may have no idea that they are! (And then there are people who are racist out of choice...and those people really really really suck)

But the problem is that, after a while, it gets tiring. Exhausting, overwhelming, frustrating. Especially when you are saying the same things to the same people over and over again, and they won't _listen_ long enough to absorb what is said. At some point, ignorance becomes a deliberate choice. At some point, you lose your patience and your desire to educate because you can't do the _work_ for someone else.









:


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessviola* 
Is the fact that POC repeatedly state that they are bothered by being referred to in this way not enough to make those doing the describing want to change?

I have not heard anyone discussing this EVER IRL.

EVER.

You act like the dialogue is just open for business and people are just at coffee shops chatting away about racism.


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## Jessviola (Jun 17, 2003)

Quote:

I have not heard anyone discussing this EVER IRL.

EVER.

You act like the dialogue is just open for business and people are just at coffee shops chatting away about racism.

I'm not commenting on what may or may not happen anywhere else. Isn't the point of this thread to open up a dialogue and educate yourself? In this very thread women have brought this up. That is enough for me to do some serious reflecting and really listen to what they have to say.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I have not heard anyone discussing this EVER IRL.

EVER.

You act like the dialogue is just open for business and people are just at coffee shops chatting away about racism.

Not being snarky here but do you live in a fairy homogenous area? I find that people who get little RL exposure to POC are the ones to say this. Frankly as a WOC, I have no problem sitting down and having these dialogues IRL. Especially since as a WOC, I don't have the luxury of not ever thinking about race since no matter what there is always something going on that reminds me that I am a Black woman in a world that is hostile to POC. Sometimes its small things and sometimes its big things but to forget is simply a luxury I do not have.

ETA: I also suspect that most Mamas who are not WOC but have children of color are probably also in the same boat as the partners and Mamas of POC. I know that in the past several years since having our dd, my dh has become even more sensitive to the crap that POC deal with.. even the so-called jokes. A few mos ago someone stole the plates off our old junker and dh had to go to the local police station, well I stayed home so all the cops saw was a white man. Why did they make jokes about how dh could properly dispose of our junker by driving it to Harlem and what not.. dh was stunned, now those cops probably didn't think anything of they said but my dh was furious.

Shay


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Thanks for the thoughtful responses.







I have a better idea of how to handle the issue with my ds now. Thanks guys.


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## Yinsum (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I have not heard anyone discussing this EVER IRL.

EVER.

You act like the dialogue is just open for business and people are just at coffee shops chatting away about racism.

Are you saying, because you don't hear something means it doesn't exist? This attitude seems so incredibly dismissive.


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## rambunctiouscurls (Oct 4, 2006)

I also wanted to add that some children who are not exposed to all kinds of ppl, use descriptors that are particularly offensive such as, "dirty" "muddy" etc. What bothers me is when their parents laugh it off and proudly share it as one of those things that come out of the mouths of babes.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommy2Amira* 
I also wanted to add that some children who are not exposed to all kinds of ppl, use descriptors that are particularly offensive such as, "dirty" "muddy" etc. What bothers me is when their parents laugh it off and proudly share it as one of those things that come out of the mouths of babes.









:


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

While I am not of African-American descent, I belong to the minority group here in the US. I am also a fairly new immigrant so maybe this plays into my opinion into this thing.

I would not like for people to be color-blind when it comes to me. I will find it very considerate if they realize and acknowledge that I am of Filipino descent. What does it mean really to be color-blind?

If/whenever I am described as dark or brown, I do not take any offense in that because it IS my skin color. If my son eventually gets described as such and feels hurt, I will lovingly explain and encourage him to feel proud of the color of his skin (however that turns out to be. He is darker than the average Caucasian right now and lighter than the average Filipino).


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommy2Amira* 
I also wanted to add that some children who are not exposed to all kinds of ppl, use descriptors that are particularly offensive such as, "dirty" "muddy" etc. What bothers me is when their parents laugh it off and proudly share it as one of those things that come out of the mouths of babes.

Well my son did this in sign starting around 20 mos, and he was exposed to all kind of people from birth - I live in a highly multicultural area and pretty well always have. I'm also part Iroquois - I totally look caucasian and culturally am, pretty much, but I mention it to say that it's language we would totally not use in our family for personal as well as political reasons. Dirty indian has a lot of long-reaching implications in my family tree.

I didn't think it was cute - in fact it was mortifying when we were out and he'd be so into sharing his observations flapping his hand away in the sign for "dirty" (which he also used for the night sky; I guess he took it as 'dark') - but it was also something it took a few months to figure out how to address. I'd sort of swallowed the line that MY child would be innocent of any such observations, when really - he's a child, he noticed some people's skin is dark. Welcome to parenthood.









Entering the mind of our toddler on that one was a bit of a struggle, but we emphasized things like "the lady in the blue skirt." It helped once he learned his colours for that one though. We also said we don't call people dirty. I'm not sure what he absorbed but the phase passed and we'll see what the next one is.

Anyways just to say that yes, children learn what they live, but sometimes they also come up with these things on their own, and it is a process. Totally agreed that we have to work with our kids on this one.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
True, but I dont see a point in getting mad at people for being ignorant, it sucks...but unless someone tells them they are acting stupid-they may have no idea that they are! (And then there are people who are racist out of choice...and those people really really really suck)


Another thing that people haven't brought up, is that often when people are approached respectfully as to their ignorance, they don't always react too kindly. Not everyone wants ot be educated, but I think moreso, people have this fear in confronting that they might not be completely free of any sort of prejudice, even if it is just stemming from ignorance. It was hard for me to confront, and I'm a woman of colour, and I have talked to many of my white friends and family who have struggled with it.

For example, my inlaws have some old records with children's songs that I don't really approve of for various reasons relating to race. Now my inlaws are sweet sweet people, they do believe in treating everyone equally, but I can also see my MIL subconciously crossing the street if a black man is approaching her, or pulling in her purse. Now should I even approach the topic of the records, you can believe that there is going to be a tonne of tears, hurt feelings and histrionics (they're a bit over the top sometimes) and they don't have the background to understand why the records are offensive. So I can enter into a three week dialogue, all the while assuring them that I don't think they're members of the KKK, or I can grit my teeth and teach my son at home why those songs aren't appropriate. I'm still actually trying to decide between the two. I have given them reading materials and much to their credit, they've read them, but they aren't too keen on discussing the topic. I can't really force it on them, without a disaster, and at that point there wouldn't be any point, because they have to be open and receptive to learning, and that would mean that they'd have to admit that something they have been participating in, is offending someone they care for and not appropriate for their little centre of the universe.

I do agree with the woman who said it is frustrating. I personally enjoy talking to people about race and racism and find it a really rewarding challenge to do, but as much as I enjoy it, I also don't feel it my responsibility either, just more as a courtesy and chai lattes in exchange are most welcome. *G*


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## azfiresmbm (Sep 23, 2007)

I have myself researched songs and how they began ,
It's very interesting when you see how these songs actually began and what they are really in reference to !!

Rock a bye baby
Ring around the rosie
Humpty Dumpty

Maybe do some research on the songs that bother you , and give the info to your family .
Maybe say something like,,, I was bored one day and researched a whole bunch on childhood songs and these ones I found a little disturbing, and I'd really appreciate it if we stopped listening to them !!!!


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## rambunctiouscurls (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Well my son did this in sign starting around 20 mos, and he was exposed to all kind of people from birth - I live in a highly multicultural area and pretty well always have. I'm also part Iroquois - I totally look caucasian and culturally am, pretty much, but I mention it to say that it's language we would totally not use in our family for personal as well as political reasons. Dirty indian has a lot of long-reaching implications in my family tree.

I didn't think it was cute - in fact it was mortifying when we were out and he'd be so into sharing his observations flapping his hand away in the sign for "dirty" (which he also used for the night sky; I guess he took it as 'dark') - but it was also something it took a few months to figure out how to address. I'd sort of swallowed the line that MY child would be innocent of any such observations, when really - he's a child, he noticed some people's skin is dark. Welcome to parenthood.









Entering the mind of our toddler on that one was a bit of a struggle, but we emphasized things like "the lady in the blue skirt." It helped once he learned his colours for that one though. We also said we don't call people dirty. I'm not sure what he absorbed but the phase passed and we'll see what the next one is.

Anyways just to say that yes, children learn what they live, but sometimes they also come up with these things on their own, and it is a process. Totally agreed that we have to work with our kids on this one.

Thanks so much for sharing your perspective. I can totally believe that it's something children may come up on their own and I really don't believe that children (esp. a 20 month old) can be racist. The only thing that really bothered me was the parent's response.. like going out and sharing with everyone they see as if it's the most wondrous thing that came out of their dc's mouth. That was the whole point of my post really. Yah, i can scratch the "they probably are not exposed to POC" line.


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## jessemoon (May 31, 2004)

My son has 11 uncles. 8 of them are African American. 3 of them are Caucasian. He also has 5 aunts. Two are African American, two are Asian and one is Caucasian. He is certainly not a child who has no exposure to POC.

He will often ask me when he isn't sure which of his aunts or uncles I am referring to...(as he often does, he is only three) "Umm...Simon...what color is Simon?" or "Which color is she, that auntie?"

For him, it is a short way of narrowing down the list of possible uncles/aunts that I might be referring to.

We tend to say "Well, Simon has brown skin and black hair and he is the one who is so good at soccer." That way, I am answering his question, but adding another descriptor that we can use to identify Simon next time without the skin color descriptor being the primary one (i.e. "Simon, the one who is so good at soccer"). I don't want to shame him for asking an innocent question, but I want to gently guide him towards using descriptions that are less potentially hurtful.

Now, that being said...my little guy who is not only exposed to people of POC but related to them as well..still needs guidance in learning what is and isn't polite to say about people's appearance.

He once insisted (loudly) that a very dark-skinned AA man must have "burned his face". When I (mortified) pointed out that people have all different colors of skin ("You know how Gideon has darker skin than Mama? Well, that man just has darker skin than Gideon. All sorts of people are all sorts of colors, sweetie.) He looked at me as if I was foolish and said, "No, Gideon is brown. That man has a burned face." Yikes!









I don't think that the gentleman he was referring to heard his comment...but it worries me that he might have gone on with his day thinking that my son was one of those children of insulated, racially isolated white-people who are made uncomfortable by the mere presence of POC. Sigh.

I just sort of assumed that my child wouldn't need coaching on the racial sensitivity front coming from such a diverse family....but that's parenthood for ya! It's never what you expect.


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommy2Amira* 
I also wanted to add that some children who are not exposed to all kinds of ppl, use descriptors that are particularly offensive such as, "dirty" "muddy" etc. What bothers me is when their parents laugh it off and proudly share it as one of those things that come out of the mouths of babes.

I'm an AA woman who taught some East Indian children how to swim two summers ago. (my best friend's kids and their cousins.) I adored the little girl in the group, and gave her one of my brown skinned Olympic Barbies, new in pkg. (the doll could swim in water. I like to collect athletic dolls.) The little girl, who was approx. the same deep shade of brown as the doll, said she didn't like it because the skin was "dirty." That was the first time I'd ever heard such a thing. It made me sad for her. I wondered if she thought that her skin or her mother's skin was dirty, also?

Otherwise, I also get annoyed at how much we all use race/color to describe people. how am i supposed to explain to my almost 3 year old that despite her light complexion, she's black? that makes no sense to her. a little 5 year old kept telling her that her doll was black, and she cried. the doll is brown, as far as she can tell. We adults get used to being called colors that don't really describe us, and colors that are associated with negativity. We suck it up. But I think it's hardest on our children.


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