# What would a gorilla do???



## ILovePie (Aug 1, 2008)

In another thread I saw someone talking about co-sleeping making biological sense - and the example of other animals, namely a cat and kittens was used (i.e. that they don't put their young in another room and go off to sleep).

Ok, this makes COMPLETE sense to me. And I do try to parent (and exist generally) according to biological rather than social needs.

But this got me thinking -- the other hot nighttime parenting topic is CIO. CIO doesn't make biological sense to me, but no one has ever told me how our closest primate relatives deals with frequent nighttime wakings, a baby that needs to sleep but won't....

So, seriously....what would a gorilla do with an 11m/o who wakes up every 1-2 hours, insists on nursing almost constantly, and sometimes wakes up in the middle of the night not to play...but to fuss?

Anybody have any idea how a gorilla parents through the night? I know a gorilla is probably going to sleep a decent amount during the day, but they're still diurnal and expect to get the majority of their sleep at night, right?

Also, because I'm still trying to pick my jaw up off the floor, I took DS to the pediatrician to rule out an ear infection or anything else. Her advice? I'm quoting pretty much verbatim: "You need to put him in his bed and let him scream, vomit, the whole nine yards for 5 nights straight." I'm in utter disbelief that a doctor recommended treating something (SHE called it a "common sleep disorder") with vomiting....


----------



## Amber Lion (Sep 22, 2006)

I think a gorilla would get a new ped!










Seriously though, I do think a gorilla would just respond to her child, day or night. Not that that helps get a child to sleep when you know they NEED it and they still won't.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

A gorilla would tend a baby.

If the baby wanted to play in the pitch black night a mama-gorilla would probably play possum







Probably while snuggling baby and offering gorilla-boob.

-Angela


----------



## hippiechickinsing (Jan 13, 2007)

I'm sorry to intrude. I don't have anything to offer. I just chimed in to say I the title of this thread.







:


----------



## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

I have no idea about gorillas, but this mama just cuddles and tries to snooze through. When it gets to be too much, I switch with DH for a bit so we can each get a few hours sleep.

FTR - there are so many new developments right now with crawling, walking, words and teeth that in some ways it is amazing toddlers this age sleep at all.


----------



## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
A gorilla would tend a baby.

If the baby wanted to play in the pitch black night a mama-gorilla would probably play possum







Probably while snuggling baby and offering gorilla-boob.

-Angela

ITA.


----------



## Toolip (Mar 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippiechickinsing* 
I'm sorry to intrude. I don't have anything to offer. I just chimed in to say I the title of this thread.







:

I know







I want to make a bracelet with WWGD?









Also... "gorilla-boob" made me giggle, te he hee


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amber Lion* 
I think a gorilla would get a new ped!

Wow, no kidding!!!


----------



## Murihiku (Oct 2, 2008)

What a great question! I've no idea but the first mental image that came to me was the gorilla swatting her baby out of the way!







:


----------



## riomidwife (Sep 1, 2006)

Maybe check with Diane Fosey research? I'd guess it would probably not be in a baby gorillas best interest, or most animals best interest, to be up all night-- making noise anyway. Could draw predators including new alpha male gorillas that are practicing infanticide, as they do.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riomidwife* 
Maybe check with Diane Fosey research? I'd guess it would probably not be in a baby gorillas best interest, or most animals best interest, to be up all night-- making noise anyway. Could draw predators including new alpha male gorillas that are practicing infanticide, as they do.

Which is precisely why baby-gorilla would never be left to cry. Everything in mama-gorilla's power to comfort baby would be done.

-Angela


----------



## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Babies cry because something's wrong. Gorilla babies, human babies, doesn't matter. It's just that there's a lot that goes wrong with our babies that's somewhat out of our control, including finding our civilized lifestyle (clothing, bedding, etc.) uncomfortable, being irritated by toxic chemicals (neighbor just sprayed their yard, for example), street lamp shining through curtains at just the wrong angle, super-sonic whine from electronics setting baby's teeth on edge... who knows what it might be?

So mama gorilla would find out what was wrong, and fix it. But a lot less will go wrong with baby gorilla in the wild than with domesticated human babies.

Also, she'd hold baby out so it can pee/poop. ;-)


----------



## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

Love the title of this thread.

I have no gorilla-advice that others haven't already posted. Mama gorilla certainly wouldn't let baby CIO. Or purposefully create a situation that made baby vomit.

But I wanted to say:

Taking parenting advice from a doctor is like taking advice on WHERE to drive from a car mechanic.


----------



## BeantownBaby9 (Jan 15, 2009)

at 3am, i always ask myself, instead of wwjd, wwmmd? what would monkey mom do?

i believe that gorillas sleep with their babies in arms, and more upright than we humans do. if they make a bed of leaves or twigs, i am sure baby 'rilla is right close to momma g. and if baby 'rilla wants to play in the middle of the night, i am sure momma g just does what she has to to get him to quiet down.

remember, gorillas and monkeys hold their newborns for 6mo straight, and don't let other pack members hold them.


----------



## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Am I the only one whose cats used to leave their kittens crying? They also used to smack them around and hiss if the kittens tried to follow them. My cats were never very ap.


----------



## doctormom (Nov 11, 2005)

Gorillas nurse for at least two years and carry their infants everywhere...very AP. I would imagine they nurse throughout the night, and the constant physical contact with the mother is soothing. Letting a baby cry and attract predators would be a no-go.

Letting a baby cry and vomit for five nights in a row suggests that we may not be the most highly evolved species after all...


----------



## foxtrot (Jan 27, 2008)

I don't know about gorilla's, but I've watched lots of nature shows and I have bluebird houses in my backyard so I can say that mother animals do eventually push their young away. I think sometimes we take AP a bit too far. I've watched shows where the cheetah mother wanders off for a day or so leaving her cubs to fend for themselves so they learn how to take care of themselves. I've seen shows where the cubs are napping alone while the mother is off hunting for food.

And I can tell you from watching my bluebird houses and from reading up a lot on bluebird behavior that the parents eventually stop frequent feedings to get the young to leave the nest. The don't abandon them, but the last 2 or 3 days they are in the nest the parents bring less and less food and the parents become quite scarce. The people who study bluebirds believe it's their way of getting the rather comfortable babies to leave the nest.

I sometimes think we think it's "natural" to always follow the baby's lead, but I'm not sure that is how nature really is.


----------



## PaigeC (Nov 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foxtrot* 
I don't know about gorilla's, but I've watched lots of nature shows and I have bluebird houses in my backyard so I can say that mother animals do eventually push their young away. I think sometimes we take AP a bit too far. I've watched shows where the cheetah mother wanders off for a day or so leaving her cubs to fend for themselves so they learn how to take care of themselves. I've seen shows where the cubs are napping alone while the mother is off hunting for food.

And I can tell you from watching my bluebird houses and from reading up a lot on bluebird behavior that the parents eventually stop frequent feedings to get the young to leave the nest. The don't abandon them, but the last 2 or 3 days they are in the nest the parents bring less and less food and the parents become quite scarce. The people who study bluebirds believe it's their way of getting the rather comfortable babies to leave the nest.

I sometimes think we think it's "natural" to always follow the baby's lead, but I'm not sure that is how nature really is.

Personally, I think comparing primates is more germane.

Oh, and laughing about "gorilla boob" and wwmmd! Those are great.

I agree that it is imperative that the gorilla quiet the baby so as not to attract predators. I think it is the same with some tribal humans. Native Americans who used the papoose often had to have babies that didn't cry and they practice a lot of AP as a result. I know I've read that some tribal people who babywear and constantly bf have infants that cry 20 minutes a day total. I'll have to find that again.


----------



## saritajoy (May 26, 2008)

Called Parenting for Primates by Harriet J Smith - I've been wanting to read it! It would probably give you the true answer to your question! http://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Prim...d=JPJP4RM2FB3D

I did find Our Babies, Ourselves: How Biology and Culture Shape the Way We Parent to be very enlightening - about how traditional societies parent compared with Western culture - and there's a whole excellent chapter on sleep based on James MacKenna's mom & baby sleep research. It doesn't directly answer your question, but suggests that continuing co-sleeping will be the best way to regulate and normalize babies' sleep habits (i.e. sleeping through the night like an adult).


----------



## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *saritajoy* 
Called Parenting for Primates by Harriet J Smith - I've been wanting to read it! It would probably give you the true answer to your question! http://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Prim...d=JPJP4RM2FB3D

I just bought this! My parenting motto has been what would a monkey/chimp/gorrila do? (Actually now that I'm into raw food it's more like my life motto.)


----------



## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeantownBaby9* 
at 3am, i always ask myself, instead of wwjd, wwmmd? what would monkey mom do?

i believe that gorillas sleep with their babies in arms, and more upright than we humans do. if they make a bed of leaves or twigs, i am sure baby 'rilla is right close to momma g. and if baby 'rilla wants to play in the middle of the night, i am sure momma g just does what she has to to get him to quiet down.

remember, gorillas and monkeys hold their newborns for 6mo straight, and don't let other pack members hold them.

I frequently end up sleeping with ds in my la-z-boy because ds sleeps much better partly upright like that. After reading this I might start referring to the chair as my gorilla nest. We already seem to communicate mainly with grunts.


----------



## oiseau (Mar 30, 2008)

I just finished reading Our Babies, Ourselves and that book does talk a lot about how various monkey and ape mommas care for their babies.
It would be interesting to watch gorillas (or any of the other apes), to see what they and their babies do during the night...I'm not sure that a lot of that research has been done, mainly due the difficulty tracking apes at night in the jungle, especially into their sleeping areas. I'd be tempted to say that gorilla babies sleep better than human babies, but I don't really have any reason to state that as fact.


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foxtrot* 
I don't know about gorilla's, but I've watched lots of nature shows and I have bluebird houses in my backyard so I can say that mother animals do eventually push their young away. I think sometimes we take AP a bit too far. I've watched shows where the cheetah mother wanders off for a day or so leaving her cubs to fend for themselves so they learn how to take care of themselves. I've seen shows where the cubs are napping alone while the mother is off hunting for food.

And I can tell you from watching my bluebird houses and from reading up a lot on bluebird behavior that the parents eventually stop frequent feedings to get the young to leave the nest. The don't abandon them, but the last 2 or 3 days they are in the nest the parents bring less and less food and the parents become quite scarce. The people who study bluebirds believe it's their way of getting the rather comfortable babies to leave the nest.

I sometimes think we think it's "natural" to always follow the baby's lead, but I'm not sure that is how nature really is.

But when the parent birds push their babies out of the nest, the babies are developed enough to care for themselves. Human infants (and primate infants in general) are juvenile and unable to fend for themselves for an astonishingly long time in comparison to other animals (e.g., horses, dogs, gazelles, etc.)

So, this momma is about to teach her 7 1/2 year old 'baby' how to make a sandwich for himself because he's steadfastly refused to learn, but he's old enough for THAT push out of the nest, at least!


----------



## paulamc (Jun 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *saritajoy* 
Called Parenting for Primates by Harriet J Smith - I've been wanting to read it! It would probably give you the true answer to your question! http://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Prim...d=JPJP4RM2FB3D

I did find Our Babies, Ourselves: How Biology and Culture Shape the Way We Parent to be very enlightening - about how traditional societies parent compared with Western culture - and there's a whole excellent chapter on sleep based on James MacKenna's mom & baby sleep research. It doesn't directly answer your question, but suggests that continuing co-sleeping will be the best way to regulate and normalize babies' sleep habits (i.e. sleeping through the night like an adult).

Thanks!!! I've been wanting to read books on this topic but hadn't done the research to find out what was out there. I'll be checking both of these out of the library!


----------



## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amber Lion* 
I think a gorilla would get a new ped!









:









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Toolip* 
I know







I want to make a bracelet with WWGD?

You beat me to it! I was just going to say that!!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
Am I the only one whose cats used to leave their kittens crying? They also used to smack them around and hiss if the kittens tried to follow them. *My cats were never very ap.*









I'm sorry, but that is WAY too funny!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *foxtrot* 
I don't know about gorilla's, but I've watched lots of nature shows and I have bluebird houses in my backyard so I can say that mother animals do eventually push their young away. I think sometimes we take AP a bit too far. I've watched shows where the cheetah mother wanders off for a day or so leaving her cubs to fend for themselves so they learn how to take care of themselves. I've seen shows where the cubs are napping alone while the mother is off hunting for food.

And I can tell you from watching my bluebird houses and from reading up a lot on bluebird behavior that the parents eventually stop frequent feedings to get the young to leave the nest. The don't abandon them, but the last 2 or 3 days they are in the nest the parents bring less and less food and the parents become quite scarce. The people who study bluebirds believe it's their way of getting the rather comfortable babies to leave the nest.

I sometimes think we think it's "natural" to always follow the baby's lead, but I'm not sure that is how nature really is.

ITA to an extent, but humans don't mature at the same rate as other creatures, even mammals, and even primates. If you think about it though, as the child transitions into adulthood the parents (ideally) back off more and more as the child assumes more and more responsibilities. Assuming we aren't talking heli-parents though LOL


----------



## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

this little monkey boy would've been eaten by a leapard last night. 1:30- 3:30 AM was vspent rolling around on the bed smiling, laughing, and saying "mama mama mama.."









i tell him if he wasnt so darn cute







we'd have given him back long ago...


----------



## AlicesMama (Nov 23, 2008)

I would like to point out the *differences* between our monkey cousins and ourselves as I think their sleep pattern could well be different due to differing brain sizes. The Chimpanzee is our closest relative (97% same DNA).

A Chimp's brain is almost as big as a human baby's brain at birth. However a human baby has a 10 fold increase in fat in the last 10 weeks of pregnancy making 30% of the baby's total weight brain and body fat. Baby Chimps and Gorillas have no body fat at all. The human brain trebles in size from birth to the age 10, Chimps brains don't. Human body fat provides the fuel for the growth of the human brain.

Humans have this layer of body fat, usually found in marine animals, which goes a long way to supporting the idea of aquatic ape man, as our real ancestor, rather than coming out of the Savannah of Africa theory.

More fascinating insights into our differences with other primates here: http://www.allempires.com/article/in...ape_cuddly_ape

Brain development and REM dream sleep go hand in hand, with, as many of us know babies spending much of their sleep time in REM sleep. Much of the waking seems to be as babies go in and out of REM sleep. I wonder if for our monkey cousins this is the same?

I wonder though, due to a final much smaller brain size, the amount of REM sleep is less in chimps, and therefore perhaps less wake-ups?

More than anything I would like to hear from people closer to home - humans







in the developing world. What do Mums in rural China, India and Africa do? Do their babies wake up through the night constantly?

If they do, what do they do?

Or this another Western phenomenon?


----------



## ErinsJuneBug (Nov 21, 2006)

My cats have kittens right now and it is ANNOYING how AP she is! If i try and pick them up she comes running and meows in my ear the entire time. If they are asleep she will come down stairs but the second one of them makes a peep she will bolt back up stairs. I wish i could weigh them without her grabbing them by the neck and dragging them back to their spot.


----------



## riomidwife (Sep 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foxtrot* 
And I can tell you from watching my bluebird houses and from reading up a lot on bluebird behavior that the parents eventually stop frequent feedings to get the young to leave the nest. The don't abandon them, but the last 2 or 3 days they are in the nest the parents bring less and less food and the parents become quite scarce. The people who study bluebirds believe it's their way of getting the rather comfortable babies to leave the nest.

I sometimes think we think it's "natural" to always follow the baby's lead, but I'm not sure that is how nature really is.


Touche! Nature, e.g., primate behavior is not always 100% child-centered.


----------



## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foxtrot* 
I don't know about gorilla's, but I've watched lots of nature shows and I have bluebird houses in my backyard so I can say that mother animals do eventually push their young away. I think sometimes we take AP a bit too far.
-
I sometimes think we think it's "natural" to always follow the baby's lead, but I'm not sure that is how nature really is.

Taking AP too far in what way? I'm not sure I'm following your train of thought.

If you think solely in terms of lifespan/maturity comparison of species, when a mother bird is "pushing her young away" at a few weeks old - keep in mind that bird's lifespan is about 2 yrs. A humans lifespan is about 80 yrs. That 2 weeks equates to what in human maturity - maybe 10 yrs (I don't know, math isn't my strong suit, haha - but you get my point).

Even gorillas (98% like humans DNA wise) will keep their babies with them for a 3 - 4 yrs, and their lifespan is 30 - 50 yrs.


----------



## riomidwife (Sep 1, 2006)

I am fortunate to have a friend who is a primatologist. Chimps are her specialty, but she has extensive knowledge of all primates. She concurred that primates naturally practice what we would term "attachment parenting" behaviors, however they are not always entirely child-centered, and do limit access to the breast during the day.

The babies wake up frequently at night, and are immediately nursed back to sleep. They don't even wake up mom, most of the time. They attach themselves to the breast. This holds true for most monkeys for which sleep studies, activity cycles, nursing, etc. have been studied.

They limit daytime access by making the baby ride on their back instead of on the ventrum, and by blocking access if they are actively foraging. The babies throw a fit, but it isn't really weaning per se, just nursing on mom's terms instead of on demand.


----------



## jocelyndale (Aug 28, 2006)

That's really fascinating, riomidwife.

I was about to comment about camping experiences. My DS wakes less at night while camping. And when he does wake, he just latches on quietly and drifts back off to sleep.

We all sleep better while camping and feel wonderfully rested come morning.


----------



## Danielle13 (Oct 31, 2007)

this thread is so facinating!!









I always ask myself this question : If I were in a cabin in the wilderness, and had no previous preconceived notions about infants or their wake/sleep paterns and had done no research on the dangers/benefits of cio/cosleeping ect...what would I do?

And heres what i think! I would cosleep, because I'm lazy and I miss dd when she's away. Plus, I would cosleep for safty reasons. BUT I do not think I would allow her to do what she did for the last year and a half (sorta "running the show" for lack of a better term). I probubly would 'teach' her how to sleep better. I probubly would have fed solids sooner. I DO think I still would have nursed her as much as we did. Basically all day everyday for 14 months. But I don't think I would have let myself become so sleep deprived/physically ill as I did. Because I wouldn't have been scared of scaring her with nighweaning too early. I would have done it for my own basic survival needs









Now, I don't know if thats true...but it is the question I ask myself no matter what i'm thinking about. Meat eating, dairy eating, GD, ect ect.


----------



## riomidwife (Sep 1, 2006)

It's interesting that this thread kind of fizzled out after I posted about primate nursing patterns. Are you all unhappy about primates restricting access to the boob, or am i just a thread killer, lol? :yawning:


----------



## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

LOLOL

I think it just answered the question very thoroughly


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

I'll admit I'm pretty much a cynic, but I had a bit of a giggle when I read that reply. I remember reading a book called Primate Visions, and she pointed out that primatologists tend to see what they want to see--in the 50's primatologists tended to characterize apes as preferring nuclear families, in the late 60's and 70's they tended to characterize apes as sexually promiscuous and free-loving, in the 80's they tended to declare that single mothers were the norm among apes.

Our culture warps what we see when we look at these animals, so it's not at all surprising to me that in this day and age of early weaning and CIO, Western primatologists are characterizing them as putting the breaks on breastfeeding. I'd be curious what a primatologist raised in, say, Kenya would see when observing these animals.


----------



## riomidwife (Sep 1, 2006)

I hear your point but I think it's a stretch. I'd be surprised if the information supplied by my primatologist friend is this ethnocentric, never mind any association with breastfeeding politics. I'll bring this up with her, maybe I can even get her on here!


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Personally, I'd be more interested in hearing from a non-Western primatologist. Of course, no one is going to say "you're right, my views are formed in large part by my culture."


----------



## riomidwife (Sep 1, 2006)

Really? In my experience people in the world of science are often very willing to look at any subconscious social biases (or otherwise). I hope I can get her on her and address this issue herself. Good conversation!


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

I believe this particular science is fraught with difficultly in separating ourselves from the animal--we are so similar and we are more likely to see ourselves in there. Perhaps she could recommend a book written by a primatologist from a culture where breastfeeding is child-led and often continues for 4+ years of age? That would be a fascinating read.


----------



## Murihiku (Oct 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Personally, I'd be more interested in hearing from a non-Western primatologist. Of course, no one is going to say "you're right, my views are formed in large part by my culture."

It would be the rare academic today who _wouldn't_ proclaim that as a caveat.


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Murihiku* 
It would be the rare academic today who _wouldn't_ proclaim that as a caveat.

Then why in this particular science are people having such trouble separating themselves from their scientific observations? Perhaps I'm wrong though--perhaps apes really have changed that much over the last few decades.


----------



## riomidwife (Sep 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Perhaps she could recommend a book written by a primatologist from a culture where breastfeeding is child-led and often continues for 4+ years of age? That would be a fascinating read.

isn't that just going to the other extreme?

In any case, I don't believe that "child-led" breastfeeding patterns preclude occasional direction from mom. Even some of the most "AP" hunter-gatherer cultures limit access to the breast when it makes sense for them to do so.


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riomidwife* 
isn't that just going to the other extreme?

See, your culture is getting in the way. It's not extreme--this is how humans behave in non-Western cultures. I HIGHLY recommend the book Our Babies Ourselves.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riomidwife* 
In any case, I don't believe that "child-led" breastfeeding patterns preclude occasional direction from mom. Even some of the most "AP" hunter-gatherer cultures limit access to the breast when it makes sense for them to do so.

I'm not debating whether there are limits placed on a human baby in non-Western cultures--it very well may be the case. I'm only asking to hear from someone *outside* the culture we find ourselves in. We are currently in an era where mom often works outside the home, both parents often work extremely long hours (compared to say the 1950s), we are usually far removed from extended family (that could help during the day when a child is very small) than we were in previous decades, etc.. Of course we want to hear that gorilla mama behaves as we are longing to behave (or at least have validated).


----------



## Murihiku (Oct 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Then why in this particular science are people having such trouble separating themselves from their scientific observations? Perhaps I'm wrong though--perhaps apes really have changed that much over the last few decades.

Or perhaps _academics_ have changed that much in the last few decades!









I'd definitely read a primatologist's book on academics. Or an academic's book on primatologists . . .


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Murihiku* 
Or an academic's book on primatologists . . .

I recommended one of these above. It's called Primate Visions--pretty dense but very fascinating. It's what made me start to question this science.


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Murihiku* 
Or perhaps _academics_ have changed that much in the last few decades!









Obviously, I have my doubts. But, that's why I'd love to hear from someone that came from a culture outside our own.


----------



## Murihiku (Oct 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Obviously, I have my doubts. But, that's why I'd love to hear from someone that came from a culture outside our own.

Actually I do take your main point and agree--I'm just suggesting that today most academics (and I'm sure primatologists are included) pay _lip service_ to the idea that they cannot separate their observations from their cultural and ideological conditioning.


----------



## riomidwife (Sep 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
See, your culture is getting in the way. It's not extreme--this is how humans behave in non-Western cultures. I HIGHLY recommend the book Our Babies Ourselves.....................
Of course we want to hear that gorilla mama behaves as we are longing to behave (or at least have validated).

Yes, I've read the book, and most related books









As for projections of our own social framework, I think it is interesting that the majority of posts in the beginning of this thread were of the of-course-gorillas-nurse-on-demand-all-night-all-day-no matter-what-because-that-is-what-is-normal variety. That is what people were hoping to hear, at least that is how I read this thread.


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riomidwife* 
Yes, I've read the book, and most related books









As for projections of our own social framework, I think it is interesting that the majority of posts in the beginning of this thread were of the of-course-gorillas-nurse-on-demand-all-night-all-day-no matter-what-because-that-is-what-is-normal variety. That is what people were hoping to hear, at least that is how I read this thread.

Of course! We want our own struggles or lifestyle validated--that's been my point. The fact that a primatologist has observed the exact behaviors we want validated in this new era (lets face it, most of us are struggling with sleep in this new, hectic, crazy, modern lifestyle) made me pretty skeptical.


----------



## ILovePie (Aug 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
Am I the only one whose cats used to leave their kittens crying? They also used to smack them around and hiss if the kittens tried to follow them. *My cats were never very ap*.

This made me laugh honestly out loud.

For some reason I thought this thread wasn't getting much in the way of replies because I stopped being notified! Now I must catch up on my own thread!


----------



## ILovePie (Aug 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *saritajoy* 
Called Parenting for Primates by Harriet J Smith - I've been wanting to read it! It would probably give you the true answer to your question! http://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Prim...d=JPJP4RM2FB3D

I did find Our Babies, Ourselves: How Biology and Culture Shape the Way We Parent to be very enlightening - about how traditional societies parent compared with Western culture - and there's a whole excellent chapter on sleep based on James MacKenna's mom & baby sleep research. It doesn't directly answer your question, but suggests that continuing co-sleeping will be the best way to regulate and normalize babies' sleep habits (i.e. sleeping through the night like an adult).

I'll see if our library has these....after I finish reading the 8 books on infant and toddler sleep that I checked out.

I consider myself pretty well in touch with my instincts, but I agree with the pp that talked a little about how modern life really adds problems that our instincts can't necessarily solve. CIO works (with definite drawbacks, but it does serve a purpose), and it works in a culture where moms lack a community to help them out at odd hours and moms also need to go to a job and be functional so can't arrange a midday nap with their baby.

In any case, this prompted me to check out all these books written by people with lot of credentials....so I can tell the people acting like I'm a stupid moron for not "letting" my baby cry and vomit to shove it....

If I hear another tone of voice that basically says "just you wait....."


----------



## haurelia (Mar 12, 2009)

Love this thread!








I compare myself to a monkey mama on a daily basis. A monkey mama takes her baby wherever she goes, doesn't usually let others hold her babe, and nurses her babe whenever it wants to.
I'm so sick of being asked "is he still eating?" or being told "he can't be hungry already!" or people trying to take my babe from my arms so they can "let him get to know me." As if my 6 week old is even conscious of kinship definitions!







:


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ILovePie* 
I consider myself pretty well in touch with my instincts, but I agree with the pp that talked a little about how modern life really adds problems that our instincts can't necessarily solve. CIO works (with definite drawbacks, but it does serve a purpose), and it works in a culture where moms lack a community to help them out at odd hours and moms also need to go to a job and be functional so can't arrange a midday nap with their baby.

I confronted this dilemma with my first kiddo, and I swore I was going to solve it before I ever had another child. I do think there are ways to get around this problem that is driving people to use CIO--our family had to make tremendous sacrifices (we're extremely poor, we have a ridiculously small house, etc.) but there are ways to make it happen.

DH and I lived far away from relatives or any community when we had DD, and it was an absolutely atrocious experience. I knew we needed a community before we could ever consider having another child. So we moved into a cohousing development, which is as close as I could find to how I saw folks living in Africa (I lived in Kenya, Ghana and Malawi)--we now have 17 households in our neighborhood who look out for us, bring us food when we're sick, give me a break when I need it in the afternoon (and vice versa). When there's a pregnancy, we all pitch in to take care of the mama and the other children, teenagers pop-in to help with housework where it's needed, meals are brought to the family for weeks after the birth.

Then, I started my own small business so that I could work from home. I was an AIDS researcher and now I design children's clothes--not ideal, not what I imagined from my life, even a blow to my ego. But, it lets me bring in money while working on my hours--if I need a nap, I can take one.

It's not ideal--we're all crammed into one bedroom because it's all we could afford, we got rid of the car for quite a while, no tv, no stereo, no new clothes--but we got away from the crazy modern life and found community!

I highly recommend cohousing for anyone who's feeling like something isn't right about how we have to live when raising babies--there are even a remarkable number of communities that have low-income units! www.cohousing.org


----------

