# S/O bodily integrity/consenting to altering your child



## Sandstress (Sep 21, 2006)

My 6 mo old DD2 has a small facial deformity (of the ear). It does not in any way interfere with any normal function, it is not painful, and it is not prone to getting infected/irritated. My DH and I go around in circles about having them (one each side) removed. He wants them off before "she's old enough that kids will make fun of her" and I want to leave them on until she can decide what to do with them.

I used to be sort of circ-indifferent, but this website has made me anti-circ and really anti-permanent change to a child's body without their consent.

What would be the over-riding issue-- the wish to make her look "normal" before, say, kindergarten, or the wish to let her decide if and when she wants to have surgery to take them off.

I am open to any opinions and anecdotes. I'm not really looking for advice, just wanting to broaden the scope of how I'm thinnking about this issue. But if you had advice, don't hold back- I'd love to hear it- especially w.r.t. the DH's opinion.

THANKS!!!!!
Sandstress


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## Maluhia (Jun 24, 2007)

what a thoughful question, having never had to make such a choice I don't know what I would do. However I know whatever choice you do come to, your daughter will know that you did it with great honesty and thoughfulness towards her.


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## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

It is totally dependent on the family.

My daughter is Deaf. Her first language is sign language. Last year she became a candidate for a cochlear implant. It was possible that through this surgery, to place a device in her head, she *could* hear better. Some kids do amazing with the device, some hear nothing. It was not necessary at all. She was happy, healthy, smart, and doing wonderfully. The device works best when placed at a very young age (some advocate as young as 4-6 months old) but my daughter was not eligible until now.

Many people saw this as a "no brainer", if it could make her "more normal" why not do it? Well, she is normal! She is doing great! We would be putting her through (outpatient, safe, but still!) surgery, for a hope of a benefit. She could live life Deaf, and happy without the device.

We made the decision that was best for our child. We were lucky because she was 5 and able to give some input, and signs as to what she wanted, in an age appropriate way.

We are totally happy with what we decided. It was right for her, and us. But it was a long and hard decision!


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

We dealt with something similar with DS.

It was discovered at my 17 week ultrasound that he had polydactyly - an extra digit on each hand. We learned that it is not uncommon, and because the extra digits are usually without bones, frequently removed shortly after birth. We decided to play it by ear and just see what we were dealing with when he was born.

He ended up being born at 32 weeks due to severe preeclampsia, and he spent 6 weeks in the NICU. The extra digits were very small - just little nubs that were like fingertips, hanging off each pinkie. His neonatologist tied them off, and a few days later, the nubs fell off. He still has little bumps where the nubs were, but it's not very noticeable. He really did not seem bothered when they were tied off (as opposed to being bothered by his NG tube that he pulled out almost every day!).

I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but honestly I still feel it was the right thing to do, for us anyway. All of his nurses commented on it, and while extra digits certainly didn't make him any less perfect, they didn't have any function, were painless to have removed (no, really - I was holding him while they were tied off), and could have caused problems later on if they got caught on something and torn off (THAT would have been painful!).

I'm not sure this helps, but I hope you have peace with whatever decision you make!


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

DD has a small benign tumor on her finger, it doesn't effect her use of her finger at all. Most people don't notice it, but she's not in school yet.

We had surgery scheduled and backed out at the last minute. It just seemed too traumatic for something that right now isn't a big deal. I'm sure we'll have it removed if/when she asks or kids start teasing her for it. It is a simple out-patient procedure that she'll get over, but the trauma of teasing can last forever.


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## Sandstress (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkymamajoy* 
It is a simple out-patient procedure that she'll get over, but the trauma of teasing can last forever.

This is what I can't come to terms with. The surgery would be under general anethesia, which always has risks. I can't picture how teasing about a small "nubbin" on the ear would be so traumatizing. Don't kids make fun of each other no matter what? If those things weren't on her ears, wouldn't kids find something else to pick on if they really wanted to?

I don't know....


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## Fujiko (Nov 11, 2006)

Here is my experience, take what you will from it:

I had a minor birth defect that was corrected when I was 2. Some of my earliest memories are from the surgeries and everything they entail. (There were two surgeries because the first one got botched in an accident at home during recovery, which is also something I remember...) It was something that definitely could have waited until I was older, something that didn't even have to be surgically corrected in the first place, and it was on a part of my body that can easily be hidden.

I suppose I never had a negative thought about my parents choosing this for me. The fact that it was surgically corrected was pretty much the same as the fact that I was born with it in the first place--I just accepted it as something that happened. I was not traumatized by the surgeries, though I do have "good" and "bad" memories of the hospital and my medical treatment. I was a laid back kid (still pretty laid back), so I just went with it. I guess the only thing I can think of is that I wish I would have been able to understand what was happening and why it was happening at times. But it wasn't a big deal. I am kind of glad that I was so young that I didn't have anxiety about it. A five-year-old may be nervous and scared in the days and hours leading up to a surgery, but as a 2-year-old I was none the wiser and thought the hospital was an adventure (until they had to do not fun things, but again, not traumatized).

My own daughter is now two. If she was born with the same anomaly as I had, would I chose to correct it now? No, because like I said, it was minor, somewhat common as far as birth defects go, and easily hidden. I'd like HER to decide.

I guess I never thought about what would have happened if my parents decided not to get it corrected. Hmm. I suppose I would either be self-conscious of it and want to get it corrected, or I would not really care. (It's not really that obvious of a defect.) I have a feeling that it wouldn't have been a big deal to me. When I was a teenager my doctor asked me if I had considered a third surgery to correct the funky scarring that occurred, but I said no, because I felt it was a unique part of me and didn't want it corrected. I don't know if I would have felt the same way about the original, unaltered defect.

Hope that helps.

ETA: Just wanted to mention that I was under general anesthesia both times. I remember being put under the second time, and not wanting to breathe in the medicine from the icky black rubber mask. I remember trying to cry because maybe they wouldn't make me do it then.


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## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandstress* 
This is what I can't come to terms with. The surgery would be under general anethesia, which always has risks. I can't picture how teasing about a small "nubbin" on the ear would be so traumatizing. Don't kids make fun of each other no matter what? If those things weren't on her ears, wouldn't kids find something else to pick on if they really wanted to?

I don't know....

Yes, kids suck.

But, the question is, if she decides to have them removed later, will it be because she wants too, or because she wants to fit in?

Would you regret not having taken them off if she is teased?
Do you think she would some how "blame" you if you did do it?
What are the pro's of taking them off?
What are the pro's of leaving it alone?


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandstress* 
This is what I can't come to terms with. The surgery would be under general anethesia, which always has risks. I can't picture how teasing about a small "nubbin" on the ear would be so traumatizing. Don't kids make fun of each other no matter what? If those things weren't on her ears, wouldn't kids find something else to pick on if they really wanted to?

I don't know....

Kids will always find something to pick on, but why would I give them a target?


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## pdxmomazon (Oct 13, 2005)

My eldest daughter has a birth mark (a hemangioma) in the middle of her forehead. When she was a baby, it was extremely red, raised, and noticeable. (think 1 inch thick and bigger than a silver dollar) We were urged by family members and complete strangers to "do something" about it. With time it shrank and started it's process of involution and is now a lot less noticeable. I realize that we're "lucky" because her difference has sort of taken care of itself. However, we decided that we weren't comfortable changing her body until she had some say in it. If the difference isn't debilitating I would err on the side of caution. General anesthesia is no joke!

Good luck!


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

That's tough.

I would also be concerned about the implications of choosing to have the surgery later because she was being teased. There's a concern about altering a child's body without their consent, yes, but I think there's also a concern about teaching a child that you can/should change your body because of other people's comments about it. I'm not sure what I'd do in your situation.


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## KarenEMT (Aug 10, 2002)

I believe my husband has the same thing as your daughter, an extra "nubbin" of tissue at the top rear of each ear. It appears to be hereditary in his family, for what that's worth.

I had a conversation with his parents once years ago about it, and they felt that he could eventually have it removed when he was older if he chose. I just asked him, and he said he was made fun of a bit about it, but nothing severe that affected him. He took much more heat for his poor social skills than for this one appearance-related issue.

He also said that he would never consider having them removed for cosmetic reasons only. He frankly likes his unique ears and doesn't care what other people think LOL


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I think I almost certainly would not have surgery at 6 mo for such a small difference.

My dd had a surgery at age 8 that was partially cosmetic (eye alignment). She didn't completely consent even at that age, but she was old enough to be prepared and supported through the experience. I remember that, when she was in the post-op area, a nurse noted that the _really_ tough patients in post op were toddlers, because they just wailed and didn't understand what was going on.

Dd lived until age 8 with her difference. She grew to want it corrected (although not nec surgically







), but it didn't have a significant negative affect on her socially. In fact, I think it helped her grow compassion for _other_ people's differences, and also learn to keep hardships in good perspective.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I would have it done. I don't compare it to circumcision, because circumcision is removing a functional part of the body, one that serves a purpose.

I know that kids can be cruel, and that the scars from teasing last a long, long time, and I can't see giving them a target. I would have it done when the child is still young enough not to feel anxiety and fear leading up to the procedure, and look for the right setting and the right doctor to have it done in, to minimize the trauma as much as possible.


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## noobmom (Jan 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
That's tough.

I would also be concerned about the implications of choosing to have the surgery later because she was being teased. There's a concern about altering a child's body without their consent, yes, but *I think there's also a concern about teaching a child that you can/should change your body because of other people's comments about it.* I'm not sure what I'd do in your situation.

This is an interesting comment. Isn't this basically what the parents would be doing (making a change because of what other people might think/say) if they choose to have surgery now? The OP stated that the deformity causes no problems. Not saying that's right or wrong, just pointing out that taking care of it now doesn't change the fact that it's being done based on other people's opinions.

My question is whether the surgery is easier now versus as an adult (or teenager). If it makes no difference, I would wait until the child has some opinion on the matter, mostly because I try to avoid unnecessary surgeries as much as possible and I would rather not put a toddler under general for a cosmetic procedure. No surgery is without risks, period.

If it's something like the PP said where they just literally tied off while the child was awake, then I'd probably lean towards taking care of it, esp since extra nubbins on a finger would probably make it hard to wear gloves and cause other minor problems later.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

My oldest son had a growth on his nose that first appeared when he was 5 months old. It continued to grow and, when he was 3, we made the decision to have it removed. The type of growth was one that would continue to grow through the years and possibly accelerate when he hit puberty. It was bright pink and covered a good part of the top of his nose. It took two operations, both under general, to remove it. He still has a small scar on his nose.

He's 10 now and we don't regret the decision at all, though it was very hard to go through it at the time. He says he doesn't remember a thing about it. Having it done at such a young age has given the scar lots of time to settle and fade. It's actually smaller than it used to be in proportion to his nose. As his nose has gotten bigger, the scar hasn't. It used to cover almost the entire length of his nose. There is still a tiny bit of the growth left, but the doctor wanted to let things settle and see how they progress as he grows. Now, it would for sure be his decision if he ever wanted another procedure. I don't think he would though, at least not at this point, unless things change drastically when he hits puberty.

We had to really think about what was in the best interest of our child, both long term and short term. We weighed all of this carefully before we made the decision. There is a lot to consider and you really have to try to put yourself in your dd's place 10 to 15 years from now. I do think how children are seen by their peers is a big deal. Teasing can be traumatic. That was certainly one of the things we considered. But, my ds was already at a point at age 2 and 3 where other children were asking what was wrong with his nose, so maybe our situation was a bit more extreme. Some questions to ask yourself: How would YOU have felt at age 11 or 13 if you had the same issue? Do you think she will avoid wearing her hair up out of embarrassment? Is it enough of an abnormality that her self-esteem could be affected? Is it something that people currently notice and comment on?


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## ALittleBitCrunchy (Jan 8, 2005)

My son was born with unilateral microtia. He had an ear, but it grew forward and over instead of backward and up. Basically, it looked like a cup more than an ear and it would continue to do so. Hearing function was perfectly fine.

He had a series of 3 surgeries over 8 months to correct it. He was 5 at the time. One was outpatient and the other 2 involved a single-night stay in the hospital. One involved a rib graft.

We have never regretted it. DS understood that his ear was different and that he was going to get a new ear. He's naturally laid back and that might contribute to his approach and recovery, but he did fine. He knew there were surgeries. He did the hospital tour. He dealt with the head wrappings. No issues (except for stitch removal, which was definitely the worst part.) He was self-conscious about the scars at first but they have faded and he has just accepted them and moved on. When he sees baby pictures, he can't believe what his ear looked like and definitely prefers his new look.

My younger brother has a similar ear but it was not as extreme. His one ear is cupped and smaller but it isn't as noticeable as my son's. My parents opted not to have it corrected when he was a kid because they wanted to give him the choice. He never had it corrected because he is a bit hospital-phobic (never been in one, though, and has no bad experiences - just doesn't like hospitals) but he really wished that my parents had just done it when he was little. He likely wouldn't have had a memory of it, it would have healed by the time he was old enough to care, and it wouldn't involve scheduling time off work and dealing with all of the appointments and such. He's not unhappy with it, but he isn't happy, either. He just wishes it had been different.

So, I'm not sure how involved the correction is or how pronounced the issue is, but that's my son's story and my brother's story. Both cases it was cosmetic only.

Good luck with your decision - I know it can be hard!


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## GreenGranolaMama (Jul 15, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdxmomazon* 
My eldest daughter has a birth mark (a hemangioma) in the middle of her forehead. When she was a baby, it was extremely red, raised, and noticeable. (think 1 inch thick and bigger than a silver dollar) We were urged by family members and complete strangers to "do something" about it. With time it shrank and started it's process of involution and is now a lot less noticeable. I realize that we're "lucky" because her difference has sort of taken care of itself.

I was born with the same type of mark right on the top of my head and my parents were urged to "do something about it" as well... but mine shrank as well, although I still have a spot on the top of my head, but now it is flush with the rest of my skin and hidden by hair.

If it isn't causing her discomfort, I would wait to have it removed until she is old enough to consent


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## Mrsboyko (Nov 13, 2007)

My son has similar to what Boknon was talking about. He is quite unique in that he has polydactyly and syndactyly on the same hand. He has an extra skin tag/ "finger" near his little finger, and the 4th and 5th digits are fused together up to just beyond the 2nd joint. We are going to have surgery on his fingers later this year becasue the fusion (syndactyly) does affect the function of his fingers. At that time we will have his extra nub removed as well.

He is currently 10 months and while I was concirned about the nub getting injured (pulled off or cought on something) so far it has been a null issue. If we didn't have the syndactyly to deal with also, I could see leaving the nub alone till he could decide what to do about it. It is just a part of him, I can't imagine how it is going to look with out it.

All that aside, the older (and bigger the part) the better. Surgery on little babies can provide strnge placement of the scar as an adult. The general idea is to wait as long as possible so whatever needs to be done can be done on a larger part. Espcaially with my son, they wanted to wait till he was 2 for his syndactyly surgery (lost of small muscles and tendons), but since it is affecting his grasping and fine motor skills now, they are willing to give up a little growing time for better outcome in the end.


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## Sandstress (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *noobmom* 
.

My question is whether the surgery is easier now versus as an adult (or teenager). If it makes no difference, I would wait until the child has some opinion on the matter, mostly because I try to avoid unnecessary surgeries as much as possible and I would rather not put a toddler under general for a cosmetic procedure. No surgery is without risks, period.

If it's something like the PP said where they just literally tied off while the child was awake, then I'd probably lean towards taking care of it, esp since extra nubbins on a finger would probably make it hard to wear gloves and cause other minor problems later.

We went to the surgeon a couple months ago, just to make sure that there wasn't a "best" time to do the surgery. He said no, so we are going to put off the decision for a little while.

This isn't something that could be just "tied off". They involve the cartilage of the ear and would need a little bit of reconstruction in removing them.


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## Sandstress (Sep 21, 2006)

Thank you all for your candid repiles. I had been blowing off the impact of teasing by peers, and will definitely consider this aspect of it more strongly.

Something that I'm not hearing is that for those of you who chose to have things removed/repaired, that the child was upset that it had been done without their consent. But there are some who have children who _wished_ that something had been taken care of earlier than they were.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

I don't have any experience of birth 'defects' but I wanted to comment on the surgery angle.

My dd suffered a burn at 15 months and needed surgery to graft skin. She fought the anaesthetist when they were putting her under and she fought the nurses when she came round too. She kicked out a cannula in her fury/distress and took about 20 minutes to calm down even once we got to her.

We were at a hospital where they are used to treating children and all the staff we met were very very kind and supportive. They said her reaction was not uncommon but older children dealt with it better.

I think that the process of anaesthesia and surgery can never be classed as simple for anyone let alone little children and I can't say that what happened to dd has not affected her in any way or that she has no memory of it despite the fact that she was very young.

With all this in mind I would be very wary of submitting a very young child to surgery unless it were absolutely necessary.


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

We had to make a similar decision when my son was a infant. He was born with Coronal hypospadias with chordee and dorsal hood, pretty much his urethra was on the wrong place on the head of his penis and he had a malformation of the foreskin and a very curved penis. After consulting with a Pediatric Urologist they highly recommended surgery at 6mo, saying that all of those issues could make it very hard to potty train, he would not be able to pee standing up without missing the front of his pants and shoes, and possibly infertility later in life. Now, this was very hard to stomach as DH and I had argued for months until finally agreeing NOT to circ, this just seemed cruel especially for Pete(our son). We agreed to the surgery at 6mo, mainly because the docs used scare tactics on us. Thankfully, he's fine now and has no implications from his birth anomaly or the surgery.

Good luck with this hard decision!


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm not sure if my story is relvant because I was older and able to consent, but fwiw:

I had extra breast tissue and a "third nipple" (for simplicity sake) on one side. It didn't appear until I was 8 or 9, and didn't bother me until puberty. At 13, it began to bother me, even though no one knew. My bra rubbed on it which was a little uncomfortable, and it made me feel abnormal. The nipple and extra tissue were removed under general anesthesia (sp?) with some very minor reconstructive work. I am so grateful.

The biggest thing that stands out in my mind is that it all happened at the right time--I was ready, my body was ready (wanted to get most of the breast tissue so that only 1 surgery would be necessary), my parents were supportive. The recovery was a B*%#h, but I knew what I was getting in to. Being "normal" again helped a little with my shyness. But then again, a 3rd boob may have kept me out of some trouble in high school...LOL.

So maybe you could wait, and see what kindergarten brings? If the kids are cruel, and your LO wants them to go away, have it done one summer. I think it depends a lot on the personality of the child. Good luck with your decision. YOur LO is lucky to have such thoughtful parents.


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## HollyBaby (Dec 24, 2009)

As has been said, circumcising removes a functional part of the body, and there is no benefit at all in doing so unless there's a medical issue. With your daughter's ears, while there no medical benefit, there is the societal benefit. It's easy to say use this as an opportunity to not change herself to suit others (but we all do this anyway by conforming to trends, at least to some degree), but this is something easier for a teenager or adult to understand. A child is a child. What will be louder to her, mommy and daddy telling her she's perfect as she is, or a classroom full of kids using her ears to tease her while she sits in the corner because no one will play with her? This isn't a nose job out of sheer vanity, taking a normal-shaped nose and changing it to another normal shape. This is fixing something outside the realm of what's considered normal so she'll fit in and not have to grow up with teasing.

In your shoes, it would be a no-brainer. Since someone will be teased no matter what (so many kids are just so mean), let it be someone else. Don't make your daughter suffer the teasing to teach her the lesson about self-acceptance. Let her learn that later by deciding if she really wants to wear outlandish boots or fight for an unpopular cause or something that is of her own choosing.


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## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandstress* 
Thank you all for your candid repiles. I had been blowing off the impact of teasing by peers, and will definitely consider this aspect of it more strongly.

Something that I'm not hearing is that for those of you who chose to have things removed/repaired, that the child was upset that it had been done without their consent. But there are some who have children who _wished_ that something had been taken care of earlier than they were.

There are people in our situation (Deaf-cochlear implant) who are VERY unhappy that their parents chose to have the surgery. They believe that their parents didn't have the right to change them, without their consent, because they were fine they way they were. They feel like their parents believed that they were not "good enough" they way they were (deaf) and that their parents thought they needed something as severe as surgery to make them "better". And there are even more who are happy their parents did not do it.

So, that's just a thought, take it or leave it...


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## Sandstress (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fairejour* 
There are people in our situation (Deaf-cochlear implant) who are VERY unhappy that their parents chose to have the surgery. They believe that their parents didn't have the right to change them, without their consent, because they were fine they way they were. They feel like their parents believed that they were not "good enough" they way they were (deaf) and that their parents thought they needed something as severe as surgery to make them "better". And there are even more who are happy their parents did not do it.

So, that's just a thought, take it or leave it...

Crap- there's not going to be a right answer for this, is there?


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## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandstress* 
Crap- there's not going to be a right answer for this, is there?

Nope.

That's why in my story I didn't tell what *we* decided to do. We made the right decision for us, but for another family it would be the wrong decision.


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## Monarchgrrl (Aug 16, 2007)

This probably won't help, either, but I can give you my story.

I had a herniated belly button. My mom said it looked like a little boy's penis, it was such an outie! There was no medical reason for fixing it, though. It was just a very big outie. My parents had it turned into an innie when I was two. I don't even think it was because of the threat of teasing, because I doubt many people would have seen it. But I have always been glad that they fixed it, without my consent. The only issue is that because of the scar tissue inside my belly button, if something (like my curious finger when I was younger) touches inside of it, I will throw up. That isn't fun, but I learned quickly not to stick anything inside.







But I'm still glad they took care of it before I could remember. And I grew up thinking it was a really cool story to tell.


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## HollyBaby (Dec 24, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fairejour* 
There are people in our situation (Deaf-cochlear implant) who are VERY unhappy that their parents chose to have the surgery. They believe that their parents didn't have the right to change them, without their consent, because they were fine they way they were. They feel like their parents believed that they were not "good enough" they way they were (deaf) and that their parents thought they needed something as severe as surgery to make them "better". And there are even more who are happy their parents did not do it.

Unlike the OP's situation, with cochlear implants, there's still something noticeably different about the person. So either way, people with cochlear implants will draw some attention. It's swapping the "problem" of deafness for the "problem" of a device, and likely, to at least some extent, done for he parents as it is often easier raising a hearing child than one who can't.

Also, the people who have come to be unhappy with the cochlear implants came to that decision later rather than as children, when most of the teasing happens. Likely they were spared at least some of that teasing.

With the OP's daughter, it's swapping a problem with her hears for...no problem, and it doesn't make parenting any easier or harder.


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## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBaby* 
Unlike the OP's situation, with cochlear implants, there's still something noticeably different about the person. So either way, people with cochlear implants will draw some attention. It's swapping the "problem" of deafness for the "problem" of a device, and likely, to at least some extent, done for he parents as it is often easier raising a hearing child than one who can't.

Also, the people who have come to be unhappy with the cochlear implants came to that decision later rather than as children, when most of the teasing happens. Likely they were spared at least some of that teasing.

With the OP's daughter, it's swapping a problem with her hears for...no problem, and it doesn't make parenting any easier or harder.

I disagree with nearly everything you have said here, but it is way off topic, so I'm going to let it lie.


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## LaLaLaLa (Oct 29, 2007)

My DD, who is now five, has a facial birthmark--a giant nevus. It's black and leathery and when she was born encompassed her right eye and also crept up onto her forehead, across her nose, and over her right cheek.

When she was eight days old, we consulted with a pediatric plastic surgeon at a world-class children's hospital. When she was just over a year old, DD had her first major surgery.

For us, this was important. I've seen so many preteen and teenaged girls with self-image problems, and having something on her face that people comment on every. single. day. is draining even at five years old. It was important to me and DH that when DD is twelve or thirteen, she doesn't have parades of strangers coming up to her on the street (as is our situation now) saying things like "what's WRONG with your FACE?!" Seriously. Not good for an adolescent's sense of self.

If it were something smaller and less immediately noticeable, we might have considered waiting. But for DD, getting rid of the nevus is a process that might require a dozen surgeries or more. If we're going to try to do surgeries in a way that take advantage of school vacations, this is going to be a very long process. We thought we'd best start early.

So far DD has had four major surgeries under general anesthesia. This summer we'll do at least one skin graft. We've had different experiences with anesthesia. The first three times were great; DD woke up in the recovery room and demanded ice pops and stickers. The most recent time things didn't go as well; DD was really drowsy and sick. We'll know next summer to request whatever cocktail of drugs she had earlier, instead of this most recent blend. Despite this more problematic experience recently, DD still says to us that she can't wait until the nevus is gone, and she's tired of talking about it to people who ask questions. Thus far it seems she agrees with our decision to get rid of the birthmark, although at some point she might decide she doesn't want any more surgeries. At that point we would stop and wait for her to request more.

I'm sorry I can't help more with your particular issue. If DD had something minor going on, perhaps we would wait and see. We also had issues with making her into the natural target of everyone around her, and that factored into our early surgery decision. In an attempt to combat potential social problems, we've moved into a very small town where her classmates will know her from kindergarten through high school and have time to adjust to her appearance. We've cultivated groups of friends--soccer, playgroup, ballet, church--who already accept her appearance and know what she's going through, so she'll have other people to lean on if things start getting difficult in school.

It's so tough to have to make decisions, especially medical decisions, for your kids. I wish you luck in deciding what the best choice for your family is!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Our ds had surgery (under general anesthesia) to remove a cyst growing near his eye and to correct a tendon problem with his thumb. The tendon problem needed to be fixed as it was interfering with his hand development/motor control. The eye thing could have been put off. But, even if it could have been put off, I wouldn't have. He was definitely getting comments about the eye. "What's that thing on his eye?" It seemed to be growing too.

Before surgery Before Surgery2
After surgery

As it is, he has no memory of the surgery, no ill effects of teasing, and no self consciousness about how he looks. Considering that he's kind of a quirky kid in other ways, I'm glad we did the surgery.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fairejour* 
There are people in our situation (Deaf-cochlear implant) who are VERY unhappy that their parents chose to have the surgery. They believe that their parents didn't have the right to change them, without their consent, because they were fine they way they were. They feel like their parents believed that they were not "good enough" they way they were (deaf) and that their parents thought they needed something as severe as surgery to make them "better". And there are even more who are happy their parents did not do it.

So, that's just a thought, take it or leave it...

WHOA no way. My kid would have a cochlear implant if it would improve her odds of surviving an emergency / getting instructions, not getting hit by a car, etc. This is basic safety. 'Course that's my knee jerk reaction I guess.

As to the OP, you could always hide it with hair until she's a little older. It's probably best to avoid, avoidable anesthesia until the brain has developed more. I believe there are some risks of learning disabilities.

One other thought. My daughter has uneven antihelical folds of her ears. In an attempt to avoid her ever wanting surgery (for one stick-out ear) we mutually settled into full time headbanding when she was 5.5. This means she wears a fashionable stretch fabric headband 24/7 except when in the water to hold her ears in the same position so that her folds would, hopefully, stiffen up in a way that she would find acceptable as an older child and adult. So perhaps by age 7 they will match.

Though this would not correct your daughter's ears, it would be a different way to wear her hair that would remove the possibility of teasing while you wait. My daughter finds it comfortable and people think she merely has a very highly developed sense of fashion (wearing coordinating headbands with everything).


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

*deleted* got my threads crossed.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

I'm not a parent yet, but my gut says that yes, I would get a birth defect fixed. I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying this since it's a common excuse for circumcision, but in my opinion, it's far less traumatizing in the long run to get surgery to fix the deformity before the child can remember it. I had surgery when I was 7, and it terrified me, despite knowing what was going on. One of my earliest memories was getting stitches in my forehead at age 3, and I still remember how scared I was. I can only speak for myself, but if I had a minor deformity, I'd be PISSED if my parents made me keep it until I was old enough to decide for myself. I'd rather have avoided the teasing and not be able to remember the pain of surgery.

There is a huge difference between fixing an actual birth defect and circumcision. I'm all for bodily integrity, but one is natural(foreskin) and one is not(birth defect).


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

I think there's a big difference between correcting birth defects and going "above and beyond normal" - say, piercing a child's ears or circing for cosmetic reasons.

That's not to say you should absolutely, definitely go for the surgery - but I do think there's a disanalogy between your situation and something which gives a physically perfect child unnatural features because those unnatural features are more socially acceptable. You know?


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## runnerbrit (May 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
WHOA no way. My kid would have a cochlear implant if it would improve her odds of surviving an emergency / getting instructions, not getting hit by a car, etc. This is basic safety. 'Course that's my knee jerk reaction I guess.

I have to say I find your "knee jerk reaction" a bit offensive. My brother is Deaf. Being Deaf is not viewed as a disability in the Deaf Community. It is a culture, it has a language and traditions all its own. When you make the decision to give your child a cochlear implant (if they are eligible) you are denying them access to that culture. Additionally, being Deaf is not a safety issue. Deaf people function just fine in society. They go to school, drive, hold jobs. In fact, most Deaf people are more aware of their surrondings then you or I could ever hope to be.

Stepping off of the soapbox.


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## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *runnerbrit* 
I have to say I find your "knee jerk reaction" a bit offensive. My brother is Deaf. Being Deaf is not viewed as a disability in the Deaf Community. It is a culture, it has a language and traditions all its own. When you make the decision to give your child a cochlear implant (if they are eligible) you are denying them access to that culture. Additionally, being Deaf is not a safety issue. Deaf people function just fine in society. They go to school, drive, hold jobs. In fact, most Deaf people are more aware of their surrondings then you or I could ever hope to be.

Stepping off of the soapbox.

I chose not to comment, but I am glad someone did!

BUT (HUGE but) a child can have a cochlear implant AND be culturally Deaf. It doesn't have to be an "or" situation









Oh, and the CI has "cons" as well. It ruins all "natural" hearing. So you are destroying something natural.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

Interesting thread. It is so, so hard to deal with things like this. My son was born with a vascular anomaly called telangiectasias on his face. Have you ever seen an older individual with "broken capillaries" on their face? My son was born with these this, spider like capillaries visible on both of his cheeks. They were not dark, but people noticed them and asked me if he had a rash. As he grew they were less noticeable as he was running around.

I was so upset over what to do. They could be removed with a laser procedure but it was painful without GA. With GA it would not be painful at all even afterward. The procedure was purely cosmetic.

We did it when he was 3.5 and we are so, so glad we did. I prepared him well with stories, role play, etc for what to expect. He was given a light sedative prior to the procedure and he was never once upset. He enjoyed the day very much.

Here is why we decided to do it.... At first we didn't consider it... plastic surgery on a toddler? No way! The more I realistically thought it through I decided that if left up to him then it would have many implications.

If he did want them removed later then it would mean that he had already experienced difficulties enough to make him face a fear of surgery, needles, etc in order to get rid of them. I figured that was a terribly difficult position to put a child in. I flashed forward to when he is 10... He comes home from school and someone teased him (or he finally admits to me that he has been teased for awhile). I tell him that we can have them removed. He has to then decide whether to put *himself* through a scary, possibly painful surgery or to endure more teasing.

When it came down to it, I felt like we would be thrusting this decision onto him when he is too young to have to make such a decision. And, in reality, passing the decision to him was a way for me to avoid it. The circ comparison is not accurate. In a circ you are altering a perfectly formed body part, decreasing function, etc. In the procedure you are talking about you are not altering a perfect part, not altering function, etc.... you are removing something odd, superfluous, and inconsequential.

It really helped me to think through the "leave it up to him" scenario. Is a child at 10, 12, 14 really old enough to make a decision like that. That is a weighty decision that has many facets (as you as an adult are really struggling with it). In the end, we decided that, it was better for us to decide what we would have wanted our parents to do if it was us, decide what we thought was best for his well-being and development, and go through with it. We are so very glad we did!


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## noobmom (Jan 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KaylaBeanie* 
There is a huge difference between fixing an actual birth defect and circumcision. I'm all for bodily integrity, but one is natural(foreskin) and one is not(birth defect).

I'd be careful about making it into a black and white issue like that. There are many variations between bodies and it's not crystal clear where the line between natural and birth defect lies.


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## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *noobmom* 
I'd be careful about making it into a black and white issue like that. There are many variations between bodies and it's not crystal clear where the line between natural and birth defect lies.

I agree with this too!


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *noobmom* 
I'd be careful about making it into a black and white issue like that. There are many variations between bodies and it's not crystal clear where the line between natural and birth defect lies.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *fairejour* 
I agree with this too!


I agree. Mole on face? Variation of normal. Ears that stick out? Variation on normal. Extra digits? Maybe still a variation of normal, but uncommon enough to be dubbed a birth defect. Fused fingers? Same thing. Being a "normal" kid is hard enough, I'm not going to have my kid be the one with the webbed toes or twelve fingers to prove a point.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *runnerbrit* 
I have to say I find your "knee jerk reaction" a bit offensive. My brother is Deaf. Being Deaf is not viewed as a disability in the Deaf Community. It is a culture, it has a language and traditions all its own. When you make the decision to give your child a cochlear implant (if they are eligible) you are denying them access to that culture. Additionally, being Deaf is not a safety issue. Deaf people function just fine in society. They go to school, drive, hold jobs. In fact, most Deaf people are more aware of their surrondings then you or I could ever hope to be.

Stepping off of the soapbox.

Does that mean that Deaf parents could make a valid choice to remove their hearing child's hearing so that their child would not be denied full access to their parents' culture? Over 90% of deaf parents have hearing children. The Deaf Community doesn't live on its own, over on a paradise island. As to how they are more aware of their surroundings than I am for not being able to hear the town's tornado sirens, I'm at a loss. I'm sure we are all aware of our surroundings to the extent we are able.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

I had to comment again as I had not read all of the previous posts prior to telling my story about my son.

The argument that you would not "fix" something on you child's person because it is hard for society to define what a "variation of normal" seems rather absurd. I'm not trying to be obtuse, but sitting around on the internet saying that you don't know where to draw the line in "fixing" things seems rather odd. It is kind of like defining what porn is.... you know it when you see it.







When it is your child, and they have a deformity, you know it is not just a variation of normal and it is very, very hard. It isn't like I looked at my son everyday, with these veins covering his precious cheeks, and thought.... "well, it is hard to define what is normal these days.... and I am sure that most 12 year olds feel the same way about things like this"









The OP is not saying that she doesn't want to remove the ear nubbins (adorable description by the way... we always called DS capillaries his crazy boo-boos







) because they are just a variation of normal. It is about altering her child's body, in any way, without consent. We decided that placing that level of a decision into the hands of a young person was not easy as the decision was clearly not easy for us either.

Here is an analogy.... We also don't think we will let DS sleep over at friends' homes (a la Hold On To Your Kids style). Why? Because as young persons, their intellect and decision making capabilities are limited. If I don't think I want to put DS into a situation at a sleepover where he is forced to make difficult decisions with consequences.... why would we ever put a decision with such huge implications and repercussions on his at that same age.


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## runnerbrit (May 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
Does that mean that Deaf parents could make a valid choice to remove their hearing child's hearing so that their child would not be denied full access to their parents' culture? Over 90% of deaf parents have hearing children. The Deaf Community doesn't live on its own, over on a paradise island. As to how they are more aware of their surroundings than I am for not being able to hear the town's tornado sirens, I'm at a loss. I'm sure we are all aware of our surroundings to the extent we are able.

Wow! Just Wow! That is the only response I can type right now.


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## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
Does that mean that Deaf parents could make a valid choice to remove their hearing child's hearing so that their child would not be denied full access to their parents' culture? Over 90% of deaf parents have hearing children. The Deaf Community doesn't live on its own, over on a paradise island. As to how they are more aware of their surroundings than I am for not being able to hear the town's tornado sirens, I'm at a loss. I'm sure we are all aware of our surroundings to the extent we are able.

Are you familiar with the Deaf community? All they are saying is that they do not need a device implanted in their skull to be "normal". They are not demanding that other people beome deaf. They believe that they are born healthy, so they don't need changed. It is akin to racial differences. Would life be easier if everyone was white? Sure, but that isn't reason to "bleach" a child's skin.

I am terribly offended by this entire post.


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## Sandstress (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
Here is why we decided to do it.... At first we didn't consider it... plastic surgery on a toddler? No way! The more I realistically thought it through I decided that if left up to him then it would have many implications.

If he did want them removed later then it would mean that he had already experienced difficulties enough to make him face a fear of surgery, needles, etc in order to get rid of them. I figured that was a terribly difficult position to put a child in. I flashed forward to when he is 10... He comes home from school and someone teased him (or he finally admits to me that he has been teased for awhile). I tell him that we can have them removed. He has to then decide whether to put *himself* through a scary, possibly painful surgery or to endure more teasing.

When it came down to it, I felt like we would be thrusting this decision onto him when he is too young to have to make such a decision. And, in reality, passing the decision to him was a way for me to avoid it. The circ comparison is not accurate. In a circ you are altering a perfectly formed body part, decreasing function, etc. In the procedure you are talking about you are not altering a perfect part, not altering function, etc.... you are removing something odd, superfluous, and inconsequential.

It really helped me to think through the "leave it up to him" scenario. Is a child at 10, 12, 14 really old enough to make a decision like that. That is a weighty decision that has many facets (as you as an adult are really struggling with it). In the end, we decided that, it was better for us to decide what we would have wanted our parents to do if it was us, decide what we thought was best for his well-being and development, and go through with it. We are so very glad we did!

I guess I"m hoping she loves them the way that I do- because they're part of her. But you're right. 1. By not deciding for her I"m basically saying "I don't know- you decide." 2. If she does end up deciding to get them off, it's likely because she's "had it" with the teasing. That makes me sad, too.


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## Sandstress (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
The argument that you would not "fix" something on you child's person because it is hard for society to define what a "variation of normal" seems rather absurd. I'm not trying to be obtuse, but sitting around on the internet saying that you don't know where to draw the line in "fixing" things seems rather odd. It is kind of like defining what porn is.... you know it when you see it.







When it is your child, and they have a deformity, you know it is not just a variation of normal and it is very, very hard. It isn't like I looked at my son everyday, with these veins covering his precious cheeks, and thought.... "well, it is hard to define what is normal these days.... and I am sure that most 12 year olds feel the same way about things like this"









The OP is not saying that she doesn't want to remove the ear nubbins (adorable description by the way... we always called DS capillaries his crazy boo-boos







) because they are just a variation of normal. It is about altering her child's body, in any way, without consent. We decided that placing that level of a decision into the hands of a young person was not easy as the decision was clearly not easy for us either.


I may not have said this online, but I often consider not fixing them, not because its general anesthesia, or because it's without her consent, or because who cares what her kindergarten classmates think of her...but because she came with them...and I kind of love them the way I love everything else about her. Maybe I'm being way too sentimental about them. (and I haven't even had any champagne tonight!).


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## moaningminny (Dec 31, 2007)

My DD #2 was born with a cyst on her tongue. It's about the size of this letter 'O'. It's not always noticeable unless of course she's sticking her tongue out, but it's definitely there and not 'right ', for lack of a better term.

It does not interfere with her eating or anything else. We've decided to wait until she's older to see if she wants it removed. There's really no sense in doing it now, and to be honest, it's just a part of her. It's 'her'....I don't even consciously notice it anymore.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
The argument that you would not "fix" something on you child's person because it is hard for society to define what a "variation of normal" seems rather absurd.

agreed. If something is a "birth defect" or a "deformity," it is, by definition, not a variation of normal.

Quote:

"well, it is hard to define what is normal these days.... and I am sure that most 12 year olds feel the same way about things like this"








yep. I'd lay money that she won't still have the nubbins when she leaves middle school. No teen girl would want them. She may want them off much, much younger.

Quote:

...but because she came with them...and I kind of love them the way I love everything else about her.
It's great that you love everything about her, and there's no rush. You might feel better waiting a few years until you start to see them having a negative effect on her. Eventually, they will most likely effect the way that people react to her or the way other child talk to her and play with her. At that point, you can have them removed because *who she is as a person* is soooo much more important than how her ears are shaped.


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## slimkins (Dec 22, 2008)

Not sure what I would do in your situation. One thing that I would consider is will they get bigger or be harder to remove as your child gets older?
The reason I ask, is because I had a cyst on my forehead when I was about 4 years old. The doctors told my parents that it was fine and not causing me any grief so they should just leave it be until it does. The only problem with that was when I was 17, I did get it removed. Since it had been there for so long, it was embedded in the bone and had to be removed by a plastic surgeon and I was put under for it. When the doctor did the surgery he saw that it was so deep in the bone, that I will probably have to keep getting it removed for the rest of my life because it is too hard to get every bit of it and it would keep growing back... and yes, this did end up being the case. I just think that if it had been removed when I was younger, it would have been such an easier procedure.
Good luck with you and your husband's decision.


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

OP, if you have concerns about the general anesthesia, I also have experience with that on a young child.

DS (in addition to having the polydactyly), had a bilateral inguinal hernia (as many preemies do) that had to be repaired when he was about 4 months old. It was pretty quick, and he was in recovery within an hour. I was able to nurse him when he woke up. He did have to spend the night in the hospital, but that was only because he had been a preemie and had breathing and heartrate abnormalities when he was in the NICU. He was discharged the following day, and didn't have any problems overnight. He was completely back to normal within about 36 hours.

He also had to have surgery at 17 months for a blocked tear duct that was covered by a membrane and never would have resolved on its own. It was heartbreaking to be back at Children's Hospital again, but Doodlebug did so well, was so brave, and he was only under for a few minutes. Again, I was able to nurse him in recovery, and we took him home shortly after. He certainly doesn't remember either of these experiences.

Obviously avoiding surgery and general anesthesia is better than the alternative, but if you decide to go that route while your daughter is still too young to remember, you will both very likely come through the experience just fine.


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## Carlyle (Mar 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandstress* 
I may not have said this online, but I often consider not fixing them, not because its general anesthesia, or because it's without her consent, or because who cares what her kindergarten classmates think of her...but because she came with them...and I kind of love them the way I love everything else about her. Maybe I'm being way too sentimental about them. (and I haven't even had any champagne tonight!).

I totally don't belong on this thread because I have no personal experience, but Oh I love what you wrote, it's SO sweet! I think if you infuse your dd with this love of her whole person, she will feel it and grow up knowing this life lesson of loving what IS. (but I'm being sentimental too...what do I know.







) You could always put an age limit on when she's allowed to make the decision to remove them (if you're worried about thrusting the decision on a child too young for it)...kind of like some families don't let dd's pierce their ears until they're 13 (or whatever). I want to see a picture--I'm picturing Legolas...

I do think there's value in loving who you are and not trying to be perfect, but don't know what I would choose in your situation since teasing does stink and it would be a bummer to have that be the first thing out of anyone new's mouth (as some previous posts pointed out).


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## sailorjenn (Jul 19, 2007)

My son has a small growth on the tragus of his ear, sort of like a skin tag. The NICU nurses told me we could have it removed; our pediatrician said we should have it removed while he was young. I think it's cute and told her we'd only have it removed it if it ever bothered him.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

I have sticky out ears and I really wish my parents had had them fixed because I was teased about them even past college age and my ears aren't as sticky out as some peoples.

However, I have since discovered that I have a typical HMS/EDS face and actually, because of my poor healing due to the EDS I guess my ears might have been worse off with surgery but the teasing has had an affect on me and now matter how much I try to correct it, I can just never feel comfortable with my face/ears (ok, so I was called rat face for a long time because apparently, yup, I look like a rat which again, is considered a typical EDS/HMS face).

http://www.reumatologia-dr-bravo.cl/...suspectJHS.htm
http://www.reumatologia-dr-bravo.cl/...D/Blueescl.htm

However, moving on................ Although the crappy rheumy I went to said DD2 does not have EDS, she does have the eyes and ears, one ear is particularly flooppy and also has a weird bit that on occasion does get infected and it is something that we may have to consider getting sorted at some point but right now, is not necessary.

DD3 has floppy ears and also has small nodules where her ears haven't formed normally where the ear meets the face. Again not too noticeable and we will go with what she decides.

DD1 has sticky out ears.

Well, I guess they all have the HMS/EDS characteristics but most of them are to do with the ears which can be hidden with hair, so I guess that really, unless DD2s weirdness gets infected, we will just leave well alone.

Damn my hands are bad.

So, I guess it all depends on how you feel about it, personally, I would leave it until such a time as she can make a decision, even if her reason for doing it is to 'fit in' because that is her choice.

And yeah, kids will make fun of lots of things, but some things hurt more than others and I guess my ears were my achilles heel.


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## pjs (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smokering* 
i think there's a big difference between correcting birth defects and going "above and beyond normal" - say, piercing a child's ears or circing for cosmetic reasons.

That's not to say you should absolutely, definitely go for the surgery - but i do think there's a disanalogy between your situation and something which gives a physically perfect child unnatural features because those unnatural features are more socially acceptable. You know?

ita.


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## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

To the OP: Good luck with your decision. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, I think you need to decide what's best for your family. I think you need to decide if the benefits outweigh the risks, but you also don't need to decide right now, so that's a good thing.









OT: Comparing this to cochlear implants is not the same, like comparing it to circumcision. I'm not deaf, but very hearing impaired. (Profound hearing loss on the left, moderate on the right, I have an aid for the right, the left would need a tympanoplasty [spelled wrong, I'm sure, but I need a new eardrum].)

Anyway, the cochlear implant issue is a big thing in the Deaf community, with strong feelings on both sides. This isn't fixing a birth defect or having plastic surgery, nor is CI something that fixes everything.

Ok, I'm done complaining now.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

if your insurance changed for some reason, would this be considered a pre-existing condition? Is it possible that if you put it off, having it paid for would be different than if you have it taken care of sooner rather than later?

Also, if she waited until school aged and decided to have it done, how much school would she miss? Would she miss so much that you would want to put off the surgery until a school break? (which if she were being teased a lot might be unpleasant for her)?

I think it's also possible that if she is teased a lot and then has it fixed, the teasing could continue. She could end up being the kid who had (past tense) funky ears and stay stuck in that role.


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

I don't have any personal experience, but considering the risks of GA, I certainly would wait until your daughter consents to have them removed. I just can't imagine having surgery done on my infant, and risking them dying, just for cosmetic surgery. If there's no harm in waiting, then why not wait? I don't think she'll be teased by the other babies or anything.

I'm assuming I'm missing something here, since I've never been in this situation, but I truly can't understand why removing them now would even be a consideration. I think a lot of the other examples on this thread are very different from OP's situation. There is no harm in waiting to have it done, and it sounds like it's a pretty minor difference anyway.


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

I can't stop thinking about this. I've never been put in this situation, but I know in my heart I would never put my baby through surgery to correct a minor birth defect for purely cosmetic reasons.

I guess the question that would answer it for me is: Could I live with myself if my baby died during the surgery? Would it have been worth the risk?


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## Sandstress (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liliaceae* 
I can't stop thinking about this. I've never been put in this situation, but I know in my heart I would never put my baby through surgery to correct a minor birth defect for purely cosmetic reasons.

I guess the question that would answer it for me is: Could I live with myself if my baby died during the surgery? Would it have been worth the risk?

It would, of course, not be done on an infant. We're thinking in the "year before kindergarten" age range at the earliest.


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## Jenne (May 21, 2004)

I read the pages of responses, I'm not a mama yet, but one thought kept coming up for me over and over:

Isn't all parenting making changes to a child without consent? Most of it isn't physical but is it any less important?

What I'm trying to say is part of parenting is teaching your children your culture, your values, your viewpoints, your religion. Heck, even teaching them about other cultures, other values, other viewpoints, other religions is about what *you* as the parent want. For most parents, regardless of their culture/value/viewpoint/religion, they make these decisions with an eye towards helping their child become the best person that they can be.

To me, this question is about what the parent values. Only a parent/family can make this decision. Dh and I were both teased by peers and will parent our child/ren through that lens. Whether that involves making decisions about appearance, confidence, and self-esteem we can't remove from our experiences from our choices.

I think that part of parenting is opening one self up for the greatest amount of criticism a human being can possibly take. Children whether adult or not have to work through the blame they feel towards their parents for the decisions their parents made. I think that is a part of separating from ones family, maturing, and making peace.

There is no right answer. Your child may blame you for either decision. Your child may thank you for either decision. Your child may do both things at different points in life.

The fact that you are thinking and weighing this decision is what matters. The choice you ultimately make, to me, is not the important part. That you can look your child in the eye and say, "We chose X course of action because we wanted what was best for you and that is what we thought was best," is what parenting is all about.

I wish you peace as you go through this process and with your decision.

Jenne


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandstress* 
It would, of course, not be done on an infant. We're thinking in the "year before kindergarten" age range at the earliest.

Oh I'm sorry, I misunderstood. Well then she would be able to give consent or not at that age, right? Of course that's a big decision for a 4 year old to make.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

Quote:

I may not have said this online, but I often consider not fixing them, not because its general anesthesia, or because it's without her consent, or because who cares what her kindergarten classmates think of her...but because she came with them...and I kind of love them the way I love everything else about her. Maybe I'm being way too sentimental about them. (and I haven't even had any champagne tonight!).
I loved this!! I also loved your post before this one. You really got what I was saying, and I not good at internet communication!









You feelings are so wonderful. I went back and forth so often about the capillaries. Part of me loved them because.... well, because it was HIM.... I remember tracing them and rubbing his cheeks when he nursed and I remember how much warmer his cheeks were because of them. When it came right down to it though.... I loved them because I was his mother and loved him before I ever laid eyes on him. It isn't that they made him unlovable by others, it was that he (or his peers) would probably not love them in the same motherly way.

I should also add that my son has a small port wine stain on his leg. It goes from his ankle to about half way up the side of his calf. We had him put under GA, in a laser room with a doctor, and CHOSE NOT to have it removed. It is on his leg and I really felt differently about that. I think the capillaries being on his FACE, knowing there was never going to be any choice involved in whether he showed them to people, and that everybody he ever met would see them and wonder about them, made them different.

I remember thinking one day.... "Should I make this choice to have them removed?" It seemed like that was the only "choice" involved. Then I realized that leaving them on was a choice as well... the choice to have them. I stopped looking at keeping them as the default position, and started looking at two choices. I have no idea if that made any sense.









I was talking with someone close to me once about this issue. I remember saying.... "I am having such a hard time putting him under GA (even if only for 15 minutes) for something that isn't necessary." She said.... "Just because it isn't necessary doesn't mean that is isn't reasonable and the right choice for him."

Best of luck Momma!! I remember those days of trying to decide what to do and you feel like both decisions are wrong in some ways and right in some ways. It was the hardest decision I ever made as a parent. Just that you are thinking about it so much means that whatever you decide you will do so with love and a plan in place to make it work!

Your daughter is one lucky little girl!!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandstress* 
It would, of course, not be done on an infant. We're thinking in the "year before kindergarten" age range at the earliest.

Ah, that makes a difference. I did think you were considering surgery in infancy.

I think you should forget about it for now. How you (and she) feels when she is closer to the age of surgery may be very different from how you imagine. I worried about my dd's eyes becoming a problem (a target for teasing), and it never manifested as a major issue. She was clearly "readier" for the surgery at 8, and the decision was much easier to make when the time was right.

And I can relate to loving her "as is"! When I look back on pictures, and see my dd's eye wandering off to the side, that was very much _her_. I'm glad it is no longer an issue for her, but I get a little nostalgic for that imperfect gaze when I see the photos


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liliaceae* 
Oh I'm sorry, I misunderstood. Well then she would be able to give consent or not at that age, right? Of course that's a big decision for a 4 year old to make.

I think that 4 is a GREAT age to have this done, but the decision IMHO should come from the parents.

If it were my child, I would go forward with the procedure and only not do it if the child seemed truly opposed to it. I wouldn't ask, though. I would just say "this is what we are going to do."


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

It makes me sad that so many people seem to think teasing would be an issue. I think there is a good possibility teasing may never be an issue at all. If it were my child, I'd address any teasing issues that did come up the same way I would if they were teased for their hair, or freckles, or clothing, or shoes. And it wouldn't be to change them. Though if they wanted to we would discuss the possibilities. I've taught my children from very young that teasing is unacceptable and everyone is unique. We come in all shapes, sizes, and colors, with differing capabilities, beliefs, and needs. I personally wouldn't consider having my child get cosmetic surgery for anything that didn't affect function. However, I also don't feel at all against other parents making the decision to do so. I really do think _most_ people, including children, are above teasing in a mean way. But maybe I'm naive. I want to teach my children they can make changes to their appearance that they are comfortable with and desire, but hopefully not because someone is rude, insensitive, and self-centered enough to tease or bully. I was teased a bit by a few wayward people myself, for having zits, a haircut like a boy (twice







), and "mosquito bite breasts", lol, among other things. I really couldn't have cared less what those people thought. I felt much more sad and sorry for them that they didn't know better than I ever did for myself. Even though I still have awful skin, and would rather I didn't, lol. It is just part of me and not a big deal. My loved ones could care less what I look like and that's the way its always been. I think its much more likely other children will innocently ask questions as they want to get to know your child, as they would about many other things they were curious about. Kids are naturally curious about differences and likenesses.

My dd who is almost 10 has a gap between her two front teeth. A dentist wanted her to have laser surgery to cut the skin between the upper gums and lip. I said no. It doesn't impede her speech or cause any problems. I'd be really sad for anyone who seriously chose not to get to know and love my girl because of a gap between her teeth. She's gorgeous and special and they would be missing out. And they wouldn't deserve her







. My own front teeth are crooked and I'm totally glad I wasn't put in braces to correct them. I don't need 'perfect' teeth. I'm a human being, I'm not cut from a mold. And fwiw dd has never had any issues with her teeth, not teasing, not wishing them different. I doubt it has ever crossed her mind.


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

I don't think I would even worry about it right now. If it wouldn't even be done for years anyway, I would just cross that bridge when you got to it, kwim?









DS has a joint deformity though so I've BTDT. His little legs looked like a pretzel when he was born. Casting took care of most of the bendy-ness, but his feet were at 90* angles and his hips were also developmentally dislocated. Surgery on his feet and hips was a no brainer because of course he needed to have those done to be able to walk. His hands though, were really more a cosmetic thing. On ultrasound, the middle and ring ringer on each hand seemed to be stuck (just like the ASL sign for "I LOVE YOU"







) but after he was born, it was obvious that he could flex them out if he wanted to. We decided it would be best to just let him use his hands. Today, they are a bit "off" but rarely does anyone notice (but that may be because they notice his feet first LOL). His fine motor skills aren't top notch, but that's to be expected anyway because its also a symptom of his brain malformation. You can see here how they kind of curve to the side when he puts his hand down and here how the middle and ring still seem to turn in more when he relaxes them. But again, we decided the surgery and recovery weren't worth straight fingers, _especially_ for a child whose first language is ASL (he is non-verbal).

I also remember another story that relates more to yours... I had a friend who dated this guy in high school who was missing an ear. The first few years I knew him, he wore his hair longer, and I didn't even notice the whole time until he got a hair cut. I never said anything because, really, it wasn't that big of a deal but one day his girlfriend (my friend) mentioned it and I was like "yeah, I never even noticed until he got a haircut!" and she said "really? I thought everyone knew that". See, this guy was a few years older than us, so I didn't know him in elementary. Apparently everyone in his class knew though, from when they were younger, and I NEVER once heard anyone mention it or tease him about it. I'm sure there was the occasional brat in Jr. High or something and maybe that's why he wore his hair long for a few years, but in the end, he was fine with it and no one else cared either (and he had a girlfriend all through high school so obviously he wasn't a social pariah LOL).

If you do decide to leave her ears as-is though, my advice to you would be to help her accept them as part of her. Role play with her and help her come up with a good response for when another child questions her. If she is nonchalant about it, most other kids will follow along. We get a lot of questions when meeting new kids and when I explain (in a way they can understand), they sometimes just say "oh okay!" and continue to play with him or they will keep asking questions, and that's okay too. Its perfectly fine to answer them! Kids really are just curious. Its usually the adults that have the issues.


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen* 
My dd who is almost 10 has a gap between her two front teeth. A dentist wanted her to have laser surgery to cut the skin between the upper gums and lip. I said no. It doesn't impede her speech or cause any problems. I'd be really sad for anyone who seriously chose not to get to know and love my girl because of a gap between her teeth. She's gorgeous and special and they would be missing out. And they wouldn't deserve her







. My own front teeth are crooked and I'm totally glad I wasn't put in braces to correct them. I don't need 'perfect' teeth. I'm a human being, I'm not cut from a mold. And fwiw dd has never had any issues with her teeth, not teasing, not wishing them different. I doubt it has ever crossed her mind.

My best friend in high school had a gap between his front teeth and I thought it was adorable.







He didn't like it though and wound up having it filled after high school. I was totally bummed because I couldn't understand why he would want to change it when his teeth were already perfect.

I have crooked teeth too though and wish my parents had gotten braces for me.







BUT, its not just a vanity thing, it really is hard to brush and floss properly. If they were just a little crooked, I wouldn't mind. I think slightly-crooked teeth adds character.







Mine do not have character though, mine are just a PITA and sometimes physically painful too because my wisdom teeth have no space and they cut into my jaw.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fairejour* 
Are you familiar with the Deaf community? All they are saying is that they do not need a device implanted in their skull to be "normal". They are not demanding that other people beome deaf. They believe that they are born healthy, so they don't need changed. It is akin to racial differences. Would life be easier if everyone was white? Sure, but that isn't reason to "bleach" a child's skin.

I am terribly offended by this entire post.









Knee-jerk reactions to such a complex issue don`t hold much water with me either.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

Urchin Grey, your boy is REALLY cute, kinda like Mowgli!!!!!!


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen* 
It makes me sad that so many people seem to think teasing would be an issue. I think there is a good possibility teasing may never be an issue at all. If it were my child, I'd address any teasing issues that did come up the same way I would if they were teased for their hair, or freckles, or clothing, or shoes. And it wouldn't be to change them.

I agree and don't agree. The growth that was on my son's nose was bright pink and covered about 75% of the top of his nose. From the time it appeared, people commented on it and asked us what was wrong with his nose. When he was a bit older and we were around other kids, it was noticed. Very young kids would stare at him. Older kids would ask what was wrong. While none of this was teasing, it was still enough to make me feel uncomfortable for him. He handled it really well as a very young child. But we decided to get it removed partly because we didn't want to know what the staring and questions were going to progress to as he got older. Even if they never went beyond that, I think it would have affected him in a negative way.

And, we went into it knowing that his nose wasn't going to be made "perfect". We knew there would be a scar. But, the scar is much less noticable than the growth ever was. No one ever notices it and he does not get teased at all. He's a very likable kid with lots of friends. So, now that the issue is much less prominent, I agree with your post. I agree that its important for kids (and adults) to accept themselves the way they are.

But, when a small child has to deal with other kids staring at him apprehensively before they approach him to play or not approaching or backing away when he approached, then that takes the issue to a new level. We wanted the growth removed before he was old enough to internalize these very honest and instictive reactions from other kids. And before the other kids were old enough to verbalize what they were thinking and feeling. Until you've had to see the issue from that side, I don't think you can really have an opinion about never changing your child's appearance. I'm not sure my ds would have grown into the self-confident, wonderful kid that he is if we had left the growth. It wasn't a risk I was willing to take with his self-esteem.

Op - I think you will know in a few years if it's a real issue for your dd. I do think it should be your decision and not hers. Age 4 is too young to make that kind of decisioin, in my opinion. But, I think a few years time will give you a chance to see how things develop, both with her ears, with her feelings and other people's reactions.

ETA - If the growth had been anywhere else other than the center of his nose, I'm not sure what the decision would have been. If it was on the face, we probably still would have had it removed, but if it was under the hairline or anywhere else on his body, it would have stayed.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

My daughter (now age seven) has a moderate sized, bright red hemangioma on her face, and I've elected to wait until she's old enough to consent to surgery. So far, teasing has been minimal and rather than being something she's upset about, it's become something she rolls her eyes at. I am (as well) open to the idea of scheduling surgery earlier should it become an issue that bothered her greatly, and she needed us to help her make a decision.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ceinwen* 
My daughter (now age seven) has a moderate sized, bright red hemangioma on her face, and I've elected to wait until she's old enough to consent to surgery. So far, teasing has been minimal and rather than being something she's upset about, it's become something she rolls her eyes at. I am (as well) open to the idea of scheduling surgery earlier should it become an issue that bothered her greatly, and she needed us to help her make a decision.

Are hemangiomas the type that gradually shrink and go away on their own?


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys* 

But, when a small child has to deal with other kids staring at him apprehensively before they approach him to play or not approaching or backing away when he approached, then that takes the issue to a new level. We wanted the growth removed before he was old enough to internalize these very honest and instictive reactions from other kids. And before the other kids were old enough to verbalize what they were thinking and feeling. Until you've had to see the issue from that side, I don't think you can really have an opinion about never changing your child's appearance. I'm not sure my ds would have grown into the self-confident, wonderful kid that he is if we had left the growth. It wasn't a risk I was willing to take with his self-esteem.


You're right, I haven't been in your particular situation, nor the OP's. I do completely understand the choice you made and would never call it wrong. My cousin's son had a growth on his nose that was likely a hemangioma (if I'm remembering correctly). It grew quite a bit and seemed like it could be obstructing his vision because of the location. They did opt to remove it, but I didn't ask why. In a case like this I'm sure the questions and reactions would be tiring.

My youngest dd has angel kisses and stork bites birthmarks. At nearly two the ones on her eyelids, nose, and forehead are barely visible, at birth they were very dark and she looked bruised. The ones on the back of her neck and head are dark red. I think they may have faded a little, maybe? Hard to tell with all the hair she has. I can't tell how we would have felt/ been affected if the marks had grown or been different. She also has ears that stick out. And we did get comments and questions, and even blame. Now that she has hair and she is old enough to not be a baby we haven't had any more comments or questions. I would not do anything to change them if there was something to be done about it. She may be self conscious of them or be teased at some point, I don't know. I hope she's confident and strong enough not to care. Here's a pic of my beautiful girls. The marks on younger dd's face had aleady lightened quite a bit by then.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urchin_grey* 
My best friend in high school had a gap between his front teeth and I thought it was adorable.







He didn't like it though and wound up having it filled after high school. I was totally bummed because I couldn't understand why he would want to change it when his teeth were already perfect.

I have crooked teeth too though and wish my parents had gotten braces for me.







BUT, its not just a vanity thing, it really is hard to brush and floss properly. If they were just a little crooked, I wouldn't mind. I think slightly-crooked teeth adds character.







Mine do not have character though, mine are just a PITA and sometimes physically painful too because my wisdom teeth have no space and they cut into my jaw.









Yeah, I'd be sad if dd ever chose to change her teeth, but I wouldn't likely tell her so. And teeth that are painful are definitely a whole other ball game. Sorry you have that problem.







I've had a couple of teeth pulled because of pain and would do it again in a heartbeat.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tireesix* 
Urchin Grey, your boy is REALLY cute, kinda like Mowgli!!!!!!

I agree, my first thought was, Wow, he is beautiful!







I think its his smile. He looks so full of light and joy.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

I would not allow surgery for cosmetic ear nubbins on someone who is not old enought o give their consent.

There is a very good chance they will not bother her growing up - so why go through surgery for it?

Yes - it is possible kids will tease her for it, but the fact that ears are not a highly noticeable part of the body lessens the risk.

I had no physical deformities and kids teased the hell out of me when I was younger (I was poor in a rich area, and had poor social skills). Kids are mean that way. DH was teased as a child too - for similar reason. He does have a minor deformity (an extra tooth right in the middle of his mouth...it is a little noticeable but you have to look) and he was never teased for it.

I think kids who are teased are kid who are teased...I do not think for one minute removing an imperfection (unless it is large and in a obvious place) is going to eradicate the teasing. Kids will find something to tease about - size, name, clothes....something.

Obviously, if your DD wants her nubbins removed when she is older, I would go for it and support her.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenne* 
Isn't all parenting making changes to a child without consent? Most of it isn't physical but is it any less important?

Not less important, but those are not irrevocable, which makes them very different. You can choose to change your values, religion, etc., etc. as an adult, but you can't undo a permanent physical change to your body. So, if we make that choice as parents the repercussions will stay with our children forever, even if they themselves would change it if they could.

That said, I think the only thing we can do is make the best choice we can for our children and trust that even it's not The Right Thing To Do (how can we know that for another person?), we're doing the best we can, and it will all be well.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

OP- I was googling ear deformities because I was curious what it may look like and apparently my dd's ears could be considered deformed. They call it lop ear deformity. And there is cosmetic surgery to correct it done under GA. I seriously never would have never thought to consider it a deformity. I've always thought of them as elfin ears







. Here are some older pics of her 1 2 3 4. Here are some more recent pics of her now that she has some hair







1 2 3 4.

I have to say, no way, no how would I consider surgery for her. Not saying others are wrong for doing so, but I absolutely would not. According to the sites I was looking at, the optimal age for cosmetic surgery of the ear for this would be 5. The ears are done growing and it is before the age most children would encounter teasing, they say. It made me aware of the flip side of the teasing issue that is brought up. It would need to be approached very delicately I think if surgery was done. I would be very mindful of the message cosmetic surgery could send to a kid this age if they were aware of the reason for altering their appearance was for societal reasons.


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## lovemybubus (Oct 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen* 
OP- I was googling ear deformities because I was curious what it may look like and apparently my dd's ears could be considered deformed. They call it lop ear deformity. And there is cosmetic surgery to correct it done under GA. I seriously never would have never thought to consider it a deformity. I've always thought of them as elfin ears







. Here are some older pics of her 1 2 3 4. Here are some more recent pics of her now that she has some hair







1 2 3 4.

I have to say, no way, no how would I consider surgery for her. Not saying others are wrong for doing so, but I absolutely would not. According to the sites I was looking at, the optimal age for cosmetic surgery of the ear for this would be 5. The ears are done growing and it is before the age most children would encounter teasing, they say. It made me aware of the flip side of the teasing issue that is brought up. It would need to be approached very delicately I think if surgery was done. I would be very mindful of the message cosmetic surgery could send to a kid this age if they were aware of the reason for altering their appearance was for societal reasons.

Your daughter is precious and the baby pics with her cute lil ears remind me of a baby fairy


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## Frootloop (Aug 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen* 
OP- I was googling ear deformities because I was curious what it may look like and apparently my dd's ears could be considered deformed. They call it lop ear deformity. And there is cosmetic surgery to correct it done under GA. I seriously never would have never thought to consider it a deformity. I've always thought of them as elfin ears







. Here are some older pics of her 1 2 3 4. Here are some more recent pics of her now that she has some hair







1 2 3 4.

I have to say, no way, no how would I consider surgery for her. Not saying others are wrong for doing so, but I absolutely would not. According to the sites I was looking at, the optimal age for cosmetic surgery of the ear for this would be 5. The ears are done growing and it is before the age most children would encounter teasing, they say. It made me aware of the flip side of the teasing issue that is brought up. It would need to be approached very delicately I think if surgery was done. I would be very mindful of the message cosmetic surgery could send to a kid this age if they were aware of the reason for altering their appearance was for societal reasons.


I agree very much with this post!








12 yr old DD has a few cosmetic issues (ears, teeth, the right side of her lower lip dips down when she smiles or cries, slight club foot, etc), but I've never considered fixing her up until she consented herself. When she was around 7 or 8, her dentist wanted me to take her to a pediatric orthodontist to have some teeth pulled because her permanent teeth were/are coming in all wonky. I asked DD then if she wanted to start working on her mouth at that time.. she refused. Everyone kept telling me (and still do) that I HAVE to do something or I would regret it later. I'm sorry, but as long as DD can chew adequately, it's just not my decision to make. If she wants to keep her crooked teeth, I feel that that is her decision. She is beginning to show some interest in getting them worked on, but until she gives me the final word, I'm not about to force the issue on her.

For me.. as far as physical deformities go, unless it is causing pain for my child or severely hindering their enjoyment of life, it's simply not my place to make that decision for them. They can almost always make a decision later on to remove things.

BTW, *MissRubyandKen,* your DD's ears look very much like my DD's when she was younger. When she was first born, hers were quite pointy and everyone jokingly said that I must have slept with Dr. Spock from Star Trek. By 6 months, they weren't _as_ pointy (you can also see her lip issue well here), but definitely still had a bit of an elfish look to them. The older she gets, the less pointy they are. Her ears are definitely more rounded out now, but they do stick out a bit more. She has only complained once or twice about them, but tends to wear her hair down most days. She does complain about her crooked smile at times, but it's something that she has learned to deal with well by actively forcing the other side of her mouth down a bit more.. basically, she's learned to control it a bit better.

This is my gorgeous DD now.. crooked teeth and all.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys* 
Are hemangiomas the type that gradually shrink and go away on their own?

Hers unfortunately fell into the 2% group that continued to grow after the first year, and has shown zero signs of involuting on it's own. So it's super bright red, and while it's stopped growing at this point, it hasn't shown any sign of going away.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Frootloop- I just wanted to say your little girl is gorgeous. I love the baby pic of her, too cute


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## Frootloop (Aug 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen* 
Frootloop- I just wanted to say your little girl is gorgeous. I love the baby pic of her, too cute









Aww, thanks a lot!!








You're little one is a beauty, too!


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