# Pink for girls and blue for boys - what do you think?



## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

I asked how people felt about the extreme gendering of clothing on the Mothering Twitter account last week. I got some interesting responses:

Quote:


> It's so arbitrary. Colors are just a thing- they aren't alive, they don't have gender.


Quote:



> Blue used to be for girls and pink for boys yet some people really feel like colours are inherently gendered.


Quote:



> I feel fine about it. That is such a stupid question. Ask a serious question.


Quote:



> Later in life a child would question their sexuality souly on the fact u dressed him primaily in pink as a child.


What do you think about the seemingly more pronounced gendering of baby and kids' clothing? Does it bother you? No big deal?


----------



## glassesgirlnj (Mar 15, 2012)

I am also annoyed by the gendering of EVERYTHING baby related, even things like SPOONS. We have to make sure that "girls" only use pastel spoons, and "boys" only use spoons in bright colors? Seriously?!?!?

My daughter has a lot of "boy's clothing" - I buy most of her stuff secondhand and the boys' items are often cheaper.

That being said, I'm mostly talking about camo, denim, plaids, and stripes, so maybe those are more "gender neutral" clothes?

...She doesn't wear outfits with rocket ships, trains, trucks, etc., because those patterns don't appeal to me. Of course, if she develops "boy" interests like cars & trucks, or dinosaurs, at some point, I would buy her clothes to reflect that.


----------



## EchoSoul (Jan 24, 2011)

Oh I hate it. My son's favorite color is actually pink. Whenever it comes to toys or utensils or cups, we let him chose what color he wants. If he choses blue, HE chose it, not us. Mainly he choses pink, red, or green. Blue very rarely.

I get really aggrivated because it seems like EVERY little girl I see out and about, is dressed in pink in some form. Or playing with Barbies. Or has Princess-themed things. It's sickening. Colors should not dictate a child's personality.


----------



## JonesiesGirl (Oct 29, 2012)

I hate it! I don't understand why certain colours belong to a particular sex (because, really, are you 100% sure of the gender of your six month old?). DH and I are very open about gender expression and our child's clothing style (until s/he is old enough to express preferences) will be dictated by our own preferences and by practicality, not by useless stereotypes. Frankly we have found a lot of the "boys'" clothing quite ugly as there is a lot of emphasis on sports and motor vehicles. Obviously if our child develops an interest in those things that's fine, but DH and I prefer more stereotypically feminine things like Hello Kitty. I also think it's bizarre that babies, especially girls, are surrounded by pastel colours when we know they don't see those colours well.

I don't understand what sexual orientation has to do with the colours of one's clothing.


----------



## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

I was a tomboy. My mom says I NEVER went through a girly stage. My 6yo DD has spent the last 4 years wearing only pink, purple and red. Pink everything. If I bought something in green or blue she would not wear it. I suppose a lot of it came from the other girls in her daycare. Or the teachers there. I don't know where else, but it was not genetic. Now that she is in school, she is actually starting to wear a bit of blue and green. Hurrah. She still loves over the top pink and glitter though. My DS is 8 and has never given a toss what he has to wear. He could wear the same outfit 5 days in a row and be happy. The only time he has ever complained about clothes is if it was itchy or too tight, never because of the color or style. I never dressed him in pink, though his first bike he chose in pink.


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Look, i get the colors i like. I think the gender color association is stupid beyond words, but it doesnt bother me because i can avoid it easily . I like both pink and blue as colors, but i especially like pastels like pink. Both my boys have worn pink until kindergarten-thats another subject. I was once told by the driector of a school that my 4yo could not wear his pink coat-i didnt fight it-she argued it was bad for his self esteem-i just thought she was an idiot.

Asthey they get older, they choose what they want to wear, and that is very influenced by popular culture and peer group....my boys like superhero clothing, or train themed clothing for eg. Im not going tp fight it. ....


----------



## mama amie (Jul 3, 2011)

Totally silly. My son never cared what he wore until age 3. Then he tended toward "boyish" styles like trucks and dinosaurs. DD is 20 months and has insisted on choosing her own clothes since about 12 months. She usually opts for superhero briefs, rainbow striped pants or legwarmers, and one of her big brother t's tee shirts. Big bro is now 4 and will only wear skinny jeans, glittery black combat boots and an old tee with sleeves cut off and arm holes purposefully stretched way out... Unless he is dressed as a super hero or cowboy.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My girls wear (or wore - the older one is past the pink stage) a lot of pink because when you have girls and you get gifts of clothing, there's at least a 90% chance it'll be pink, and I'm not going to throw away free (and nice) baby clothes.

However, they also had other colors, and as they get older I let them pick their own clothes. Sometimes they've wanted pink, and sometimes something with trucks or soccer balls on it. I follow their lead and don't care what color or which section it comes out of. I understand that our society allows girls to wear boyish stuff more than it allows boys to wear girlish stuff, and I think that's too bad. It's both limiting for the boys, and it perpetuates an idea that moving from girl to boyish is good but moving from boy to girlish is negative, which is a knock to girls as well.


----------



## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

My 6 year old loves all things pink, horse/unicorn related, princessy, cheetah, etc. she also hates having her hair brushed and non stretchy pants. Lol So I am one of those people who has the girl swathed in pink. I never chose it for her tho, it is all her choice.

The baby is getting more pink than I ever chose for my elder girl because...the elder girl is choosing it.







we will see what she decides when she is older.

I hate it though. I hate that everything is pink or ruffled or cut super slim for my baby. And I hate that I can't find good play clothes for my big kid, because apparently she should be into fashion by now?! I wish there were more options for all kids. I miss garanimals!! Lol


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

I also object to the girls have to be pink and boys have to be blue. I do think it's harder for boys though, as PPs have mentioned. And many of my friends with boys have commented on how hard it is to get nice boys clothes.

I love pink so my girls do have lots of pink clothes (no ruffles though. It's pink and practical) but not all baby pink. My favourite at the moment is raspberry pink. They have other colours too though. Especially the older one. At the moment she is wearing a black Sea Shepherd t-shirt and denim shorts with aqua socks (an outfit of her own choosing).

More than colours I object to little girl clothes in teenager (or older) styles. I saw a pair of Daisy Duke shorts in a size 1 once! I prefer slightly old fashioned children's clothes.


----------



## GISDiva (Jul 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EchoSoul*
> 
> I get really aggrivated because it seems like EVERY little girl I see out and about, is dressed in pink in some form.


This aggravates me too. Seriously, head to toe! I had some pink as a kid, but also red, yellow, green...

I only have experience with boy's clothes so far, and those aggravate me too. Can I get something without "Number One American Sports Dude" splashed all over it?


----------



## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Yes, the short shorts for little girls....even in baby sizes. I want my 6 year old to be able to run on the playground without showing her underpants to the whole place. I would like my baby to be able to wear shorts this summer and have them FIT OVER A DIAPER. LOL


----------



## Escaping (Nov 13, 2012)

It doesn't really bother me... I think it would bother me if I had a girl because I hate pink things and ruffles. To me all kids should live the "little boy" stereotype: playing in the dirt, sports, cars, fishing, hunting, building, exploring, etc. but maybe that's just me, I never played with dolls or pretended to cook. The closest I came to playing with dolls was animal husbandry.

My son now dresses in typical "boys" clothing and plays with the typical "boys" toys, but if I had a daughter, she'd be playing with the same stuff lol


----------



## mcb2102 (Apr 30, 2012)

It's not just clothes. Everything baby related is gendered now. It drives me up the wall. I'm sure it stems from a desire to sell more product. It makes me appreciative of companies like IKEA, who have plain ol' kid stuff that is gender neutral.


----------



## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

I think it has gotten over the top. Have pink/blue available, sure, some people like it (sometime *I* like it honestly) but have lots of other colors available too. And baby gear, most of it should be neutral because it looks better in photos and makes it easier to use for subsequent children (not that the pink, flowered swing I have isn't going to be used by my boy twin if he likes swings, I'm not buying another one







), but it seems to be trending the other way.

Honestly though, it isn't the baby stuff that bugs me as much as the toddler and up stuff. It is nearly impossible to find non-gendered anything: clothes, toys, shoes, cups, pull-ups, etc. Babies don't know what they are wearing/using/etc., but toddlers and up do and I often want to find something that is just a generic cup or a toy kitchen or whatever, but no it is all clearly boy-cup or girl-cup or boy-kitchen or girl-kitchen (if you can even find a boy-kitchen, grrr). That drives me bonkers! Even toys that I don't think people really think of as gendered are being marketed that way now and it is just so frustrating.


----------



## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Yes! My recent exersaucer purchase made me crazy. So I could get the cheapest one which was gender neutral. The next one up, which frankly had more interesting toys, was either blue/cars or pink/castles. Then you had to jump up to over $100 to get a gender neutral one again. I was annoyed. We got the cheapest one because it works just fine for the brief bathroom trip moment she's in it. But grumble.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

It doesn't bother me.

I don't LOVE pink, and probably wouldn't fill my daughter's room with pink things. But, it doesn't bother me to have to hunt through things to find a non pink item.

In the 70s, Orange, brown and Olive green were the colors for kids. In the 80s, almost all things were primary colors. Little Tykes toys were the traditional white with dark blue, red, and green accents. Then, the bright pastels (or jewel tones) were popular, now it's the light pink, or earth tones. Nothing lasts forever.

I think people make too big of a deal out of it personally.

Try to find a men's polo shirt in a traditional Man color these days... you have to look on Land's End, or LL bean. In the stores, they are all Easter basket colors now. My husband won't wear those. I don't judge. He doesn't like them, so, we just did his entire wardrobe online. (much more expensive than the Izod outlet)


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

__ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/24699497927552669/
 About the 70s.



__ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/59602395040696132/
 80s.



__ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/144326363029329640/
 Early 90s.

Then, in the 90s, you could get a pink toy box, or toy bench, but before the 90s, you had to look for pink, or paint it yourself.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
> 
> It doesn't bother me.
> 
> ...


As I remember the 70s and 80s, in the 70s orange, brown, and olive green were just plain popular colors and everything came in those colors, including appliances. And in the 80s, primary colors were popular for everything but particularly baby stuff as they were seen as gender neutral. Pastels were very popular in the 80s (think of Miami Vice) but baby stuff was mainly gender neutral. I don't think the overwhelming pinkness and blueness of toys is something that is due to general color fashions.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Both of my kids (a boy and a girl) like pink. The genderizaton of colors does irk me sometimes, particularly the message sent to my DS that there's something wrong with a boy liking pink.

But on the other hand, it also irks me that the same people who would applaud me letting my DS wear pink may also scoff at my DD's sparkly pink wardrobe. I let them both wear what they like. IME, some parents seem more interested in subverting stereotypes than in letting their kid be who s/he is.


----------



## skycheattraffic (Apr 16, 2012)

I love bright colours so that's what DD (just turned 2) gets. Orange, green, turquoise, red, yellow, and blue are the bulk of her stuff but she does have some pink (95% gifts). I buy lots of patterns and try to keep it fairly gender neutral. I did get her some boys pjs (tigers and alligators in outer space - I couldn't leave them!) and her Halloween costume was off the boys' rack. That really ticked me off: as a girl she could be a ladybug or a pink bunny but the boys had the elephants, lions and tigers. I didn't care; she still wears her lion hoodie and pants at times. I'm keeping her stuff for baby #2 and of its a boy, he will go out in the green-yellow-purple striped pants and he'll sleep in the pink fleece pants. They'll both simply get peed in anyways lol.
I'm actually quit upset, my favourite place to shop for baby clothes (Tag) is going out of business. They have the cutest boy baby clothes in bright colours with all sorts of animals and their girl stuff includes pink but each style comes in 3 or more colours so you can mix and match and have the same outfit mostly pink, a hint of pink or zero pink as you prefer. I will REALLY miss this store. Their stuff is stylish and unique as well as practical


----------



## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

"souly" Haha. Yes, those details derail me all the time, I had to stop reading after that.

When I was in high school, boys wore pink shirts and bright green pants. Ugly, honestly, but it was the style for some people. I loved pink and had a pink canopy bed, but my sister loved brown and had a brown one.

When my oldest was a newborn, her carseat was navy blue, because, you know, that's how carseats came. I was carrying her into the hospital to go to the breastfeeding class, and as we were riding up in the elevator, a man took one look at my baby in her carseat in the stroller, covered with a navy receiving blanket and asked about my boy. I told him she was a girl, and he said I obviously wanted a boy, judging by how much blue I had. I was very annoyed. I don't even like navy blue, but, you know, that's what I got from people, so I was going to use it.

When I was a child, someone knit a baby blanket for my sister in pink, blue and white. That seemed to be common, as I recall. My MIL made one for my children in pale green and white, though.

I loved pink, as I said, but I would not want all my toys in pink. I really hate that trend! Our play kitchen was mostly dark yellow and white with brown, as I recall. It was the 70's, after all.


----------



## EchoSoul (Jan 24, 2011)

When I was pregnant with our son, before we found out his gender, relatives asked me what color I'd prefer for gifts. I said either green or yellow. News spread it was a boy... and suddenly.... "boy" clothes.

That said.. my mom dressed me in pink and white and in dresses when I was a child. She did everything she could to make me a girly-girl. Never worked out. I saw trees and started climbing them and well... dresses don't work when you're climbing trees and acting like a monkey, lol. Nor are they cute when a little girl is covered in scratches, LOL. So she settled for pink shirt and short outfits.

So, I know colors don't make a child act a particular way. My son likes pink, and even though he's 2, he has yet to act LIKE a girl.

I just...resent all the toys marketed "For GIRLS!!" and "for BOYS!!". When we go to the toy store, if my son sees a pink fairy wand, I let him play with it. Regardless of the looks we might get. If he sees a giant pink bouncy ball, I let him play with it. I don't technically hate the assumption he's going to grow up using strictly power tools and fixing cars and whatnot because frankly, ALL our kids will be taught this. It's just practical. I don't think a girl should have her own car, and not be able to figure out what's wrong with it if it's not working just because she was never taught the ins and outs of how cars run. This was me. No one saw any reason to teach me, because I am a girl. This trend will not continue. Beyond that, I don't care for the assumption that my son shouldn't grow up liking fairies and unicorns.


----------



## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

My girls love everything pink and frilly but you will also see them sporting a Bears jersey or a hockey sweater with that pink fluff. I hate it that some will judge me because of their pinkalicious tastes but would be equally thrilled if it was a son choosing the same colors. They like what they like, who am I to restrict pink because it bothers others.

Ironically a friend banned everything pink or girly and it completely backfired on her. Her daughter spent 3 years refusing to leave the house without a twirly skirt or dress, usually in a shade of pink or purple


----------



## Escaping (Nov 13, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TCMoulton*
> 
> My girls love everything pink and frilly but you will also see them sporting a Bears jersey or a hockey sweater with that pink fluff. I hate it that some will judge me because of their pinkalicious tastes but would be equally thrilled if it was a son choosing the same colors. They like what they like, who am I to restrict pink because it bothers others.
> 
> Ironically a friend banned everything pink or girly and it completely backfired on her. Her daughter spent 3 years refusing to leave the house without a twirly skirt or dress, usually in a shade of pink or purple


I agree parents should not restrict their children's choices. The colour obsession is an adult thing, not a child thing. I don't believe children are very much influenced by corporate marketing at this age, they're influenced by who they look up to. For me, it was my dad, he did all sort of cool things, fix cars, go fishing, build things, play sports. "All" my mom did was clean the house and cook, as a kid that was terribly boring and I wanted no part of it, so of course I gravitated towards "boys" things. It never occurred to me at the time that those things weren't "girls" things, I wasn't much aware of gender as a kid, my two categories were "interesting" and "boring"... the "interesting" things to me all happened to not be pink.

I don't like when pink and frilly things are "banned" by families in an attempt to guide their child... what message is that sending? That femininity is weak, inferior and undesirable? I have many feminist friends (although now that I've started having kids, I'm not sure they would consider me a friend anymore lol) who see homemakers as oppressed victims. To them it seems unimaginable that some women might actually like working in the home and raising a family.


----------



## sheenashine (Nov 12, 2008)

When I was little I was all about anything pink, purple, and/or sparkly... if I could have dressed only in those colors I would have. That said, I also had an obsession with dinosaurs and bugs.  Now, that I'm a mom I will admit that when I found out I was having girls I went a little crazy with the pink! I couldn't help it, it's my favorite color. Lol! I honestly never stopped and thought about what message I was sending, I just bought what I liked... and as they got older it switched to what they liked. Dd#1 loved pink, Dd#2 not so much, Dd #3 loves all sorts of randomness, and now that I have a little boy- well, he gets to be dressed in pink sparkles too (and dinosaurs... I never did outgrow that obsession)!  Haha! I do work to teach my littles that there is no such thing as a "boy color" or a "girl color" (same for toys!). I think *maybe* retailers are starting to come around on this, I saw a pink shirt in the boys section of Baby Gap the other day


----------



## CarrieCo (Mar 17, 2009)

In case anyone is still reading ...

I don't dress my daughter in pink b/c I don't like it and I don't think she looks good in it since she has light skin and dark hair and eyes. Her closet is mostly blue, purple, green, and yellow. I do search out non girly clothing for her. Not that she doesn't have plenty of dresses!

For my boys, my biggest issue is that even the baby clothes look like miniature adult clothing. I wanted them to look like babies! Not miniature - big people! And It's so hard to find boys clothing that does not have a character or a sports figure! What the heck? They are three ... where is the t-shirt with the animals and cutesy stuff?


----------



## Escaping (Nov 13, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CarrieCo*
> 
> In case anyone is still reading ...
> 
> ...


It's all in my son's closet! lol... I'll trade them for your miniature adult clothing, I think those look adorable! lol ....but then I'm the same person that dressed my son up in a 3 piece suit to go visit my parents because I thought it was hilarious (it was $10 on sale, in his size, I couldn't resist!







)


----------



## mama2cal&darby (Jun 13, 2008)

Yes, the colour thing is nuts, but for me the issue goes WAY beyond colour.

My DS2 is what I have recently heard called a *pink boy*. He came out of the womb loving pink, glitter, barbies and all things girly. He is now in kindergarten and is very aware that he is not like other boys and what he is is not generally acceptable. In general the kids in his class have come to accept him, but the number of times he has been told (by both children AND adults) that he shouldn't have a pink pony because he's a boy (or a Barbie, or whatever) is unbelievable. It makes me so angry that our society is still so rigid when it comes to gender stereotypes. Forget about clothing colours- EVERYTHING for kids is split along the gender line. Walk into Toys R Us and the aisles are split very distinctly into *boy* toys and *girl* toys. Before they are three kids know what their preferences are suppose to be and God forbid if you don't fit the stereotypes. My biggest worry is that my son will develop gender identity disorder because he doesn't fit his gender stereotype. That he will think he must not really be a boy because he doesn't like the things boys are suppose to like and so he will come to identify too strongly with girls. Whereas if we as a society could just stop being so uptight and fearful of everyone fitting the role we have decided goes with their genitalia, people could be free to like what they like without feeling like freaks and misfits. My DH and I do our best to assure our son that he and his tastes are perfectly acceptable, but it is an uphill battle.

Has everyone heard of the couple in Toronto who made all the headlines last year because they are keeping the sex of their third child a secret until s/he is old enough to tell people him/herself? It has caused an absolute uproar! People are so angry with them and seem to think this is akin to child abuse. NUTS.


----------



## skycheattraffic (Apr 16, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2cal&darby*
> 
> Yes, the colour thing is nuts, but for me the issue goes WAY beyond colour.
> 
> ...


Your DS sounds a lot like my DH was as a kid. He played with his sister's dolls, wasn't into most boy things and his friends were generally girls. He is a very compassionate man and an amazing, very involved father. I'm so appalled at the comments people make about your son but it's so good to hear that you are supportive of him.
I've read about the couple you mentioned and although I wouldn't go that route myself, I can see where they are coming from. It wouldn't really bother me if I knew these people - a child is a child and as long as there is love and safety, the child will thrive.


----------



## mama2cal&darby (Jun 13, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skycheattraffic*
> 
> Your DS sounds a lot like my DH was as a kid. He played with his sister's dolls, wasn't into most boy things and his friends were generally girls. He is a very compassionate man and an amazing, very involved father. I'm so appalled at the comments people make about your son but it's so good to hear that you are supportive of him.
> I've read about the couple you mentioned and although I wouldn't go that route myself, I can see where they are coming from. It wouldn't really bother me if I knew these people - a child is a child and as long as there is love and safety, the child will thrive.


No, I don't think I would make the same choice, either, but I understand that it came from their DS1 being gender *fluid* and having to deal with people's disapproval of his choice of dress, hair style and toys etc. I can empathize with them wanting their child to decide for themself who they are and what they like without the constant (often negative) input from other people.


----------



## Escaping (Nov 13, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2cal&darby*
> 
> Has everyone heard of the couple in Toronto who made all the headlines last year because they are keeping the sex of their third child a secret until s/he is old enough to tell people him/herself? It has caused an absolute uproar! People are so angry with them and seem to think this is akin to child abuse. NUTS.


When I first heard about it I thought it was a bit nuts but then I heard that they're only holding off until the child can answer for "itself"... so I think it makes the "experiment" kind of pointless; kids at that age don't know one gender from another anyway, they don't know what being a boy or a girl means, they just know that they're either labeled a boy or a girl for the purpose of answering the question. They play with what's fun, there is no way to convince a child to like something for any reason, let alone to comply with something they have no concept of.


----------



## pokeyac (Apr 1, 2011)

I think the judgment people get for dressing their kids or allowing their kids to wear certain colors is ridiculous. How is a 3-year old supposed to know that they should like a certain color and that people might be mean to them if they like the "wrong" color. Other people shouldn't give you dirty looks when your son is playing with a fairy wand.

I don't think you need to be able to tell the sex of a baby by looking at them. Babies all kind of look the same. They don't have secondary sex characteristics yet so who cares if it's obvious that they are a girl or boy?

I am about to have my first baby and we have seen while shopping how hard it can be to find gender neutral items. Even thermometers and humidifiers and combs come in pink or blue. I don't think the baby will care what color his thermometer is. Most of the clothes come in pink or blue too. It's hard to find other colors. You have to really look. I have also heard that toddler pants for girls are cut slimmer than for boys. I think that is wrong because it makes it harder for the girls to move around and their clothes may be harder to fit over a diaper, and I don't think 2-year olds need to be participating in the skinny jeans trend.


----------



## Escaping (Nov 13, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pokeyAC*
> 
> I think the judgment people get for dressing their kids or allowing their kids to wear certain colors is ridiculous. How is a 3-year old supposed to know that they should like a certain color and that people might be mean to them if they like the "wrong" color. Other people shouldn't give you dirty looks when your son is playing with a fairy wand.
> 
> ...


Yup, they are cut differently... I made the mistake of buying my son girls pants once. They were just black pants so I didn't pay much attention (either did the person stocking the store apparently because they were on the boys side), I put them on him a few times... I couldn't quite place what was wrong with them and even my husband said the pants look weird on him... I just assumed it was because they were kind of flared at the bottom and he's got fat little legs so that must have been it, then one day I noticed the tag, it said girls. I gave it to my friend who has a girl, they looked perfectly fine on her... I've since noticed that girls pants tend to be bell-bottom type styles, whereas boys are all straight legs and boot cuts.


----------



## MissAnthrope (Jan 31, 2011)

I personally do not care for pastels of any color. So our baby/toddler wardrobes are mostly jewel tones and neutrals (white, natural, brown, gray, black).

We're also making a real effort to raise children with the awareness that gender is simply NOT something we can define for them nor is it something that exists in a dichotomy. I don't even really think of my children as having genders-- I know their physical sexes, but it's strange to me when people call them boys and girls. We absolutely do not coach them to use such language-- I tell my sons that they have penises, and some people have penises and some people don't, but I have NEVER told them that they are boys, because it's not up to me what gender they identify with.

Back on topic, there are comfortable, practical, and attractive clothes available in every size, and that means that there are gowns/skirts/dresses for babies up to the age of crawling and toddlers above the age of walking well, pants and long- and short- sleeved shirts for everybody, etc., and our children just pick what they want to wear (most are capable of choosing between a couple options around the age of 10 months).

My 3.5yo son's favorite clothes are a black and cream velvet dress and an orange shirt with monkeys and bananas screenprinted on it. He can wear what he likes to wear and if he wants to attach meaning to his wardrobe choices as his understanding of social norms develops, so be it. Gender is constantly evolving, socially-defined and highly performative, it's not a fact of your anatomy.


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

The problem I have with it goes deeper than whether a particular child wears a particular colour on a particular day, and can't be remedied that much by dressing boys in pink (though I did that!)

I have a huge problem with the genderisation of society. I don't believe we have two genders, and certainly not a binary sexuality, so I really have a problem with the whole concept of blue-boy pink-girl. I don't just have a problem with encouraging girls and boys to identify with certain colours but also with the idea that we fit into nice easy boxes like "boy" "girl".

I also think there is often an undercurrent of "boys who wear pink end up gay" and the trouble with these discussions (not on here I mean-in rl) is that they often end up on the defensive ("no he won't. My husband....". When actually what I've always said is, "and? so? do you have a problem with that, because I am his mother and I don't.". (avoiding, "yeah, right, because human sexuality is that straightforward").

The reason I think we actually have these two colours is twofold. First it feeds the social desire to segregate into girls and boys that a lot of people do seem to have. Second, its a real boon for anyone selling kid stuff. If you have two kids, a boy and a girl, you have to get two freaking lots of everything! Seriously, I've known couples with twins who actually buy two separate sets of cutlery (I mean I barely bought special baby cutlery anyway but still...), Two pushchairs! Two sets of Lego. Its a marketing dream.

Oh just responding to "

But on the other hand, it also irks me that the same people who would applaud me letting my DS wear pink may also scoff at my DD's sparkly pink wardrobe. I let them both wear what they like. IME, some parents seem more interested in subverting stereotypes than in letting their kid be who s/he is."

not having a go, I take your point. I've always steered my girls strongly away from this stuff but let them play/dress up in it if they really want to. But I'm not keen that they do, I feel like a lot of society is pushing them this way and its ok for me to push back. When I was a kid I was not allowed Barbie or Sindy dolls owing to my mum being a Greenham Common feminist and I was fine with it, I got why and I certainly didn't feel hard done by, but really quite proud that my mum had such strong principles.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MissAnthrope*
> 
> I don't even really think of my children as having genders-- I know their physical sexes, but it's strange to me when people call them boys and girls.


It's just a function of our language -- we don't have gender-neutral pronouns that are socially acceptable to use for humans (most people object to the word "it" being used for their baby/child, and I've heard some people use "zhe," but it hasn't caught on). Even you refer to your "son" and "he" in your post.


----------



## aprilmrm (Sep 9, 2010)

I think it's ridiculous. I feel worse for boys than for girls because girls can wear or like any color and it's okay, but it seems to not be the case for boys--at least not without them (parents and children) getting a lot of grief for it. My 2.5 yo DD LOVES blue. It is her favorite color and any time I let her pick something out for herself she will choose blue. She now has three favorite shirts that she wants to wear in rotation, and they are all dark blue. I'm okay with that--just don't like having to be so on the ball with laundry, though.  My husband sometimes asks me why I get her blue things or let her pick blue things, and I am quick to point out she can love whatever color she wants. I hated pink as a kid (but it's my favorite color now). My older DD, who is almost 5, likes any and all colors, although she often gravitates towards blue, too. I don't get why colors have become so very gender-specific. I have a thing for dinosaurs, and so the girls sometimes wore dinosaur garments when they were babies. Consequently, they were often blue or green. I can't tell you how many times I was asked how old HE was or what HIS name was. Seriously, people? This is the 21st century. Like I said, though, I feel badly for boys. I don't see why boys can't like pink or purple or have items in those colors. My friend's son was over the other day, and he was riding on my DD's bike, which is pink/purple and he was wearing her helmet. Also pink/purple. (She picked these out.) My friend said something, "Oh, if his dad could see him now," like it would be such an issue if he saw his son using "girly" things. The kid didn't really care--he just wanted to ride the bike, but then I think he became self-conscious about it and wanted to quit riding. I say let kids decide what colors are their favorites.


----------



## redheather (Aug 20, 2011)

I used to dislike seeing girls dressed in head-to-toe pink, but now that I'm a mom (of a girl) I know that many kids choose to dress that way, and ask for it. It seems like a normal part of development, that kids like to do what other kids are doing, and well, pink's currently a part of it. Whether it comes from Barbie or older sisters or wherever, it seems here to stay. So are blue and trucks and football for boys, whether we like it or not.

I do have to admit it worries me; are gender roles getting assigned too early? I suppose that's up to each family to help the child navigate (or not), because it's definitely coming from outside the family, even when not from within.

My dd often chooses the girlier stuff. Where did she get this? Even if I want to subtly open her mind to other options ("How about these green pants!"), her peers steer her back. I think all I can do is let her climb that tree when she wants to, even in her dress and flats, and let her discover if that works for her or not. Perhaps it really does! She gets to decide.


----------



## Mama505 (Jan 7, 2012)

Just something funny:

We went out to breakfast the other morning, my DH, my 3yo DS (who has pretty long red curly hair), and me. When the server came to take our order she commented on how beautiful DS's hair is then asked, "Are you a little boy or a little girl?" He looked at her (as serious as can be) and said, "I haven't decided yet." I tried so hard not to laugh, but I loved it! DH was beaming! And the server just said, "Well, if you know before you all leave, let me know. Okay, sweetie?"

Also, I read an article, I think in Mothering, years ago about how the pink=girl and blue=boy thing is a relatively new phenomenon. Blue used to be associated with girls because of all of the artwork depicting the Christian virgin Mary in blue robes, and mama's wanting to dress their girls in her image. And pink was associated with boys because red was the color of kings, and of course everyone wants their son to grow up and be a king, right?

I think the color thing is ridiculous. Like many of the PPs, I like to let DS choose what he enjoys. I don't go for frills or polyester, I think other than that we are pretty open. I don't like the way companies market to boys and girls, but I really don't like that companies market to children AT ALL! So, I try not to subject DS (or myself for that matter) to it. We don't frequent many big box stores, and we stay away from toy sections all together.


----------



## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

I agree that head to toe pink may just mean that the child was allowed to choose an outfit. My DD loves pink (how???), and chooses clothes by the "Does it have pink in it?" method.

I agree with others, though, that toy genderization bugs me more than clothes. And it's hard to get around the girly girl stuff by buying boy stuff because the boy stuff is unappealingly stereotypical, too. I don't want superheroes OR princesses.


----------



## pokeyac (Apr 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mama505*
> 
> Just something funny:
> 
> We went out to breakfast the other morning, my DH, my 3yo DS (who has pretty long red curly hair), and me. When the server came to take our order she commented on how beautiful DS's hair is then asked, "Are you a little boy or a little girl?" He looked at her (as serious as can be) and said, "I haven't decided yet." I tried so hard not to laugh, but I loved it! DH was beaming! And the server just said, "Well, if you know before you all leave, let me know. Okay, sweetie?"


Great story! DS and the server handled that very well.

I agree with what others have said. When a child is old enough to choose their own clothes, they should be able to wear whatever they want even if it is stereotypical. I'm sure there are many moms out there who weren't into pink and tried not to dress their girls in pink or encourage them to be super girly, but the girls wanted to wear pink all the time anyway. What can you do? Not much.


----------



## sageowl (Nov 16, 2010)

I wish it was easy to find gender neutral clothes for older kids, as it is for babies (as well as that super soft cotton that baby clothes are made out of).

I find it a bit shocking that everything for kids is so gender specific--clothes, toys, you name it.


----------



## foreverinbluejeans (Jun 21, 2004)

My oldest was born in the 70's and baby things were pink and blue in the 70's and it was an issue back then just as it is now. There was a psychologist named Sandra Bem that advocated non-sexist child rearing in the early 1980's. She promoted the idea of using primary colors for young children and may have been responsible for primary colors being more popular in the 80's and 90's for kids clothes and toys. Some of my friends and I were into this idea of non-sexist child rearing and paid attention to avoiding stereotypes in how we dressed our kids, decorated their rooms, their toys, their education, ect. For my 3 sons it seemed to turn out well. They can do things that are considered male and female "tasks" and have some of the best male and female qualities. One is a nurse and one is a phlebotomist, traditionally female occupations.


----------



## RRMum (Nov 7, 2010)

It annoys me, but my two year old seems not to care, he borrowed his friends pink tutu a few weeks ago, and he asked for a pink easter dress - it's freezing here so we didn't get him one.

What I HATE is the slogans on kid clothing, "MONSTER", "PRINCESS", "I'M THE BOSS", "MOMMY'S NIGHTMARE", "AT LEAST I'M CUTE", "SOCCER CHAMP" there are so many horrible ones that make boys all out to be terrors, and girls all out to be princesses. I hate it hate it hate it. It is difficult to find clothes that don't put your kid in a box or put words in their mouth. Just a rant!


----------



## mama2cal&darby (Jun 13, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MissAnthrope*
> 
> I personally do not care for pastels of any color. So our baby/toddler wardrobes are mostly jewel tones and neutrals (white, natural, brown, gray, black).
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree with your understanding of gender, and in an ideal world each human would be truly free to choose/discover their own gender identity without outside pressure and prejudice. Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world and I believe that a big part of my job as a mother is to help my children learn to navigate the world and the society we live in. My DS2 is free to wear dresses at home, but when he woke up on the morning of school picture day and wanted to wear a dress, I said "No". I told him my reasons and assured him that there was nothing wrong with him wanting to wear it.Was it the right decision? I don't know, but I do feel the need to try to protect him from ridicule. At the age of 5 he can't possibly know what the future ramifications of his choices now will be. No, neither can I, but I have more information and experience than he does. I would hate for him to be the butt of jokes and bullying when he's 12 because of a choice he made at 5 in his conservative suburban school and can't change.

There are also leading psychologists in gender issues who believe that early parenting plays a significant part in people developing gender identity disorder. Having not done the research myself, I can't know if this is true or not. I have only known a couple of people who identified themselves as being transgendered and they both had extremely difficult lives. If there is a way to save my child from that, I will. Changing the way society views gender would be great and I will try to do my part in that, but I will also try to protect my child. For me, at the moment, this means trying to allow my son to express himself and be who he feels he is at home and up to the point where I think there could be significant adverse consequences. I am open to change and assume I will come to regret some of my decisions. That seems to be a big part of mothering.


----------



## Mama505 (Jan 7, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2cal&darby*
> 
> I absolutely agree with your understanding of gender, and in an ideal world each human would be truly free to choose/discover their own gender identity without outside pressure and prejudice. Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world and I believe that a big part of my job as a mother is to help my children learn to navigate the world and the society we live in. My DS2 is free to wear dresses at home, but when he woke up on the morning of school picture day and wanted to wear a dress, I said "No". I told him my reasons and assured him that there was nothing wrong with him wanting to wear it.Was it the right decision? I don't know, but I do feel the need to try to protect him from ridicule. At the age of 5 he can't possibly know what the future ramifications of his choices now will be. No, neither can I, but I have more information and experience than he does. I would hate for him to be the butt of jokes and bullying when he's 12 because of a choice he made at 5 in his conservative suburban school and can't change.
> 
> There are also leading psychologists in gender issues who believe that early parenting plays a significant part in people developing gender identity disorder. Having not done the research myself, I can't know if this is true or not. I have only known a couple of people who identified themselves as being transgendered and they both had extremely difficult lives. If there is a way to save my child from that, I will. Changing the way society views gender would be great and I will try to do my part in that, but I will also try to protect my child. For me, at the moment, this means trying to allow my son to express himself and be who he feels he is at home and up to the point where I think there could be significant adverse consequences. I am open to change and assume I will come to regret some of my decisions. That seems to be a big part of mothering.


Yes, I hear you! We recently moved from a smaller town where gender identity was a lot more fluid (in adults and children). DS had the freedom to wear barrettes in hes hair, tutus/sarongs, dinosaur shirts and motorcycle (fake) tattoos all as one outfit if he wanted and no one cared, or said anything at least. We moved for DH's work to a much bigger and more conservative city where there are a lot more stereotypical "boys" and "girls". By that I mean, when we go to the park all of the boys are playing gun games and rough-housing, all of the girls are playing house games and neither know how to incorporate DS into their worlds! Frankly, that is fine with me b/c I am not sure I want him to get sucked into either of those worlds, but it isn't something I had even considered before moving. It just didn't exist for us! So, now I want him to continue to be himself and do what feels good for him, but I would also like him to not be completely shunned at the park/library/whatever (especially not for something as trivial as what he is wearing)! We have been keeping the fancies for at home, walking the dogs, and trips to stores. When we are intentionally headed out to hang out at a park or something I encourage more neutral clothing. All that said, DS is moving into a phase where it isn't what KIND of clothes to wear, it is more of getting ANY clothes on him at all!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RRMum*
> 
> What I HATE is the slogans on kid clothing, "MONSTER", "PRINCESS", "I'M THE BOSS", "MOMMY'S NIGHTMARE", "AT LEAST I'M CUTE", "SOCCER CHAMP" there are so many horrible ones that make boys all out to be terrors, and girls all out to be princesses. I hate it hate it hate it. It is difficult to find clothes that don't put your kid in a box or put words in their mouth. Just a rant!


I agree! I also don't want my son to advertise for "your" company!


----------



## MissAnthrope (Jan 31, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *limabean*
> 
> It's just a function of our language -- we don't have gender-neutral pronouns that are socially acceptable to use for humans (most people object to the word "it" being used for their baby/child, and I've heard some people use "zhe," but it hasn't caught on). Even you refer to your "son" and "he" in your post.


I thought about that a LOT while I was pregnant with my first. We use gender-specific pronouns with them by default as if they were definitely cis-gendered, but it's just shorthand. English doesn't have a convenient neuter person, although we do use hir/ze to talk about people whose genders we can't easily categorize. Even so, I often get the shes and the hes mixed up with my children and I don't correct myself. Sometimes they correct me, and that gives us an opening to talk about people choosing their own pronouns and how we assume that masculine-presenting people take he/him/his and feminine-presenting people take she/her but that's just an assumption and the only way to know for sure what pronouns someone prefers is to ask.

And I had to re-read my post 4 times to make sure I was consistent about the son/he stuff. It's just not on my radar. I think of them as children, and as my children, and as their ages, and if I had to guess I'd say I probably use the cis pronouns with them about 80% of the time. The gendered identities (boy, girl, son, daughter) aren't really in my thinking and it takes effort to summon them into my mind when I talk about my children with other people. It's just not relevant to their lives or how we interact with them.


----------



## MissAnthrope (Jan 31, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2cal&darby*
> 
> I absolutely agree with your understanding of gender, and in an ideal world each human would be truly free to choose/discover their own gender identity without outside pressure and prejudice. Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world and I believe that a big part of my job as a mother is to help my children learn to navigate the world and the society we live in. My DS2 is free to wear dresses at home, but when he woke up on the morning of school picture day and wanted to wear a dress, I said "No". I told him my reasons and assured him that there was nothing wrong with him wanting to wear it.Was it the right decision? I don't know, but I do feel the need to try to protect him from ridicule. At the age of 5 he can't possibly know what the future ramifications of his choices now will be. No, neither can I, but I have more information and experience than he does. I would hate for him to be the butt of jokes and bullying when he's 12 because of a choice he made at 5 in his conservative suburban school and can't change.
> 
> There are also leading psychologists in gender issues who believe that early parenting plays a significant part in people developing gender identity disorder. Having not done the research myself, I can't know if this is true or not. I have only known a couple of people who identified themselves as being transgendered and they both had extremely difficult lives. If there is a way to save my child from that, I will. Changing the way society views gender would be great and I will try to do my part in that, but I will also try to protect my child. For me, at the moment, this means trying to allow my son to express himself and be who he feels he is at home and up to the point where I think there could be significant adverse consequences. I am open to change and assume I will come to regret some of my decisions. That seems to be a big part of mothering.


See, I have no issue with my children having "gender identity disorder". If they are trans*, they are trans*, and it's just part of who they are.

It's harder for people who publicly display homosexual attraction to live in our society, too, but it would be inappropriate to "protect" my children from being gay. My MIL actually used that line on my DH when he was an adolescent-- it went something like "I will love you no matter what, even if you are gay, but I do hope you aren't gay because the world is very hard on people like that." I'm sure she was just trying to protect her children and do right by them, but she ended up sending them the message that she would be disappointed if they had same-sex attractions, that being gay was some kind of worst-case scenario, and that homosexuals were OTHER.

I want my children to know that I love them for who and what they are, and nothing they could say or do or think could change that. I don't want them to think that I love them in spite of a part of their identity or that I would have preferred that they were different people. Gender and sexual orientation are a very personal part of identity, shaped by a complex interplay of social development and innate physiological factors we do not understand.

So I'm waiting to see, as my children grow up, who they were all along. For me, this means coming from a place of complete acceptance and facilitating whatever they feel is right for their individual lives as they develop and can control more of it themselves. It also means that I don't plan/predict their futures-- I have no way of knowing, after all, if they will grow up to be cis-gendered teenagers or delay their puberty through hormone therapy or get top surgery or become teen parents or smoke pot or change their given names or get married or choose to remain childless or breed dogs or vote Republican, and none of that stuff should have any bearing on my love for them or how I am raising them. I trusted that they knew when they needed to nurse when they were newborns, and while it is difficult to keep the faith, I'm trying to continue trusting them to know what's right for themselves. Sometimes they make choices they later regret, yes, but I believe they will learn more from making a choice and reaping the consequences than from being restricted or controlled by the choices I make for them.


----------



## Escaping (Nov 13, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2cal&darby*
> 
> I absolutely agree with your understanding of gender, and in an ideal world each human would be truly free to choose/discover their own gender identity without outside pressure and prejudice. Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world and I believe that a big part of my job as a mother is to help my children learn to navigate the world and the society we live in. My DS2 is free to wear dresses at home, but when he woke up on the morning of school picture day and wanted to wear a dress, I said "No". I told him my reasons and assured him that there was nothing wrong with him wanting to wear it.Was it the right decision? I don't know, but I do feel the need to try to protect him from ridicule. At the age of 5 he can't possibly know what the future ramifications of his choices now will be. No, neither can I, but I have more information and experience than he does. I would hate for him to be the butt of jokes and bullying when he's 12 because of a choice he made at 5 in his conservative suburban school and can't change.


I tend to agree with people who do this. I probably wouldn't let my son go to school in a dress either because of bullying, but instead of explaining it to him, I'd just lie and try not to let him buy one in the first place saying they don't have one in his size or something and hope he forgets... if one did happen make it home from the store, I'd be sure it got ruined in the wash or from painting or something so he couldn't wear it outside. I really wouldn't have the heart to tell him that I know something he likes is going to get him made fun of by his peers.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MissAnthrope*
> 
> So I'm waiting to see, as my children grow up, who they were all along.


I like the way you worded this, and I agree. I have a few friends whose husbands mildly object to their sons playing with traditionally "girly" toys, and it just seems so counterproductive to me. If they're gay they're ALREADY gay, and restricting play with certain toys isn't going to change that. So all those fathers are doing is potentially damaging their future relationship with their children, by sending a message of nonacceptance.


----------



## mama2cal&darby (Jun 13, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MissAnthrope*
> 
> See, I have no issue with my children having "gender identity disorder". If they are trans*, they are trans*, and it's just part of who they are.
> 
> ...


You assume that our parenting doesn't influence whether or not our children may develop *sexual identity disorder*. I use to assume that as well, but when I started to look into it, that is definitely not agreed upon among the leading *experts*. I don't know if they are correct, but it has made me reconsider my some of my parenting choices.

I also want my children to know I love them for who and what they are and I believe I do that. I just don't want to contribute to something that may make their lives significantly harder than need be. I have gay friends who have said that if they had a choice their kids would be straight because they believe it would be easier for them. That doesn't mean their kids would think they were loved conditionally.And I can't imagine the circumstances when one would verbalize that to their kids. The best science now indicates that sexual orientation is predominantly biologically based, but the same cannot be said for gender identity. That doesn't mean I love my children conditionally or accept them less if they turn out to be gay, straight, trans, conservative, bankers, or dog breeders.


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

"Gender is constantly evolviihologng, socially-defined and highly performative, it's not a fact of your anatomy."










Re the boy/dress thing. I actually know a man who was allowed to do this as a child and so his family have school photos of him in a dress at age 5. It is totally and utterly not a big deal. He grew up to have three sons and is actually your pretty normal straight male afaik. And the dress picture is a cute thing.

My kids are a little older, and I raised them, not to be unaware of gender at all, but to be aware that gender is a social construct to some extent, and that their gender is not the primary thing about them necessarily, its not more important than them being interested in sailing or liking yellow. It does not trump anything else. As they have got older we've discussed what this might mean in terms of other people. My son has always been quite stereotypically boyish in terms of energy and interests (though he has a number of stereotypically "female" interests too) and its only fairly recently that he's even discussed gender really, and that was in the context of conversations we've had about equality. We have several friends who identify as trans, and others who identify as gay (including their beloved cousins dads) and it has literally never come up. He's at an age when his female friends are not letting the boys play, sadly, and we've discussed it in that context and how exluding someone beuase of their gender is quite hurtful.

We see nothing odd or unusual in it so I think, nor do they. If my kids were gay it would be, literally, nothing more than them telling us they really disliked custard.

They are homeschooled but this is a mixed blessing as I'd say that among homeschoolers are some extremely morally conservative people. We have had serious issues in the past in our groups with Stonewall (LGBT rights) anti-bullying posters being deemed "inappropriate" and certainly thinking of my kids homeschooled peers vs the schooled ones they meet in their activities, prejudice more often comes from the homeschoolers and is more likely to be unchallenged. But it has the advantage that I can choose to balance their influences a little.


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

Oh, to add. I am not having a go, but re "The best science now indicates that sexual orientation is predominantly biologically based, but the same cannot be said for gender identity.".

Ok I am assuming that by "biologicially based" you mean "genetically predetetermined?" I apologise if not. As a materialist I'd say that everything is biologically based, including learnt behaviour. But one important thing is that as we learn, so our brains do change. Einstein had an unusual brain but its impossible to say whether he was born with it or whether it developed that way because of how he used it. Or whether it was even relevant to how he used it-maybe he happened to have a weird brain and it had no impact on his work.

Assuming you are saying that sexuality is genetically predetermined.The science of sexuality and gender is notoriously slippery. How do you even measure sexuality? I don't think anyone has ever really done so satisfactorally. I've had my eye on this research for years and I have never seen anything that's made me come to the conclusion that sexuality was predetermined, or not. My own feeling is that we all have differening tendencies and inclinations and what gets expressed is partly a result of environment, partly learning, and partly genes. I don't mean that we are all fully bisexual, I think that that is statistically rare, but I think most people are less monsexual than they possibly admit.

I remember years ago, when taking psychology courses, being involed in an experiement of this nature. Participants were shown eroti-ish pictures of men and women and various measures of <ahem> interest taken. But the problem was, at least for the images of the women, that they had used the same images for all participants, male and female, and that they were basically taken from lad magazines. Non-straight women often do not find the same images arousing as straight men, there is far too much cultural baggage associated with it all and lesbian pornography is an entirely separate genre. Just a small illustration to show how tricky this field really is.


----------



## mama2cal&darby (Jun 13, 2008)

"Re the boy/dress thing. I actually know a man who was allowed to do this as a child and so his family have school photos of him in a dress at age 5. It is totally and utterly not a big deal. He grew up to have three sons and is actually your pretty normal straight male afaik. And the dress picture is a cute thing."

I am glad that your friend who wore a dress to school seems to have suffered no adverse reactions, but one can hardly say that because one person didn't, nobody would. I also think you may have misunderstood WHY I didn't allow my son to wear the dress for picture day. It was NOT because I thought it would make him gay or trans. It was because I was afraid he would be bullied (in his conservative suburban school) either now, or in the future and as he has little to no understanding of the consequences- I decided to make that decision for him.

"Ok I am assuming that by "biologicially based" you mean "genetically predetetermined?" "

Actually by "biologically based" I mean an inborn combination of genetics and environmental factors.

" We have several friends who identify as trans, and others who identify as gay (including their beloved cousins dads) and it has literally never come up."

I'm not sure if this was meant as a response to something I said (maybe not), but my family has lots of gay friends (my DH and I were both actors...very large gay community in theatre) and it has also never been an issue here. We are in Canada and my kids see marrying someone of either sex as being a viable option.

"I remember years ago, when taking psychology courses, being involved in an experiment of this nature. Participants were shown eroti-ish pictures of men and women and various measures of <ahem> interest taken. But the problem was, at least for the images of the women, that they had used the same images for all participants, male and female, and that they were basically taken from lad magazines. Non-straight women often do not find the same images arousing as straight men, there is far too much cultural baggage associated with it all and lesbian pornography is an entirely separate genre. Just a small illustration to show how tricky this field really is."

I absolutely agree. I am now a psych grad student and I am well aware of how *squishy* much of psychology can be!


----------



## Escaping (Nov 13, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fillyjonk*
> 
> Re the boy/dress thing. I actually know a man who was allowed to do this as a child and so his family have school photos of him in a dress at age 5. It is totally and utterly not a big deal. He grew up to have three sons and is actually your pretty normal straight male afaik. And the dress picture is a cute thing.


For me it isn't an issue with my son or whether or not it would turn him gay, it's how society would react to something he would consider normal and part of who he is. If he was gay or trans, I'd want to protect him from bullying as long as I could until he's old enough to understand or at least have a better concept of why some people don't accept him. If he were a little bit older, I could make resources available to him so he wouldn't feel isolated.

I'd rather my son hate the clothes his mom picks out for him in daycare/kindergarten than be bullied by his peers for being who he is.


----------



## lisedea (Aug 6, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Escaping*
> 
> For me it isn't an issue with my son or whether or not it would turn him gay, it's how society would react to something he would consider normal and part of who he is. If he was gay or trans, I'd want to protect him from bullying as long as I could until he's old enough to understand or at least have a better concept of why some people don't accept him. If he were a little bit older, I could make resources available to him so he wouldn't feel isolated.
> I'd rather my son hate the clothes his mom picks out for him in daycare/kindergarten than be bullied by his peers for being who he is.










This is so sad to me. Depressing that our society (well, namely parent opinions forced on their children) has such control over something that shouldn't be a big deal.

As an early childhood teacher, I see some of this starting in the early grade levels. It disgusts me that parents will tell their children that it is wrong to wear or like "boy" or "girl" colors (toys, clothes, games)--enough so that it carries over into the classroom. If more parents allowed their children to dress as they want and be proud of who they are, the bullies (parents and children alike) would have much less power....


----------



## EchoSoul (Jan 24, 2011)

We had to go out to Goodwill and get our son pants, as he's finally hit another growth spurt, and suddenly outgrew his 2T stuff. The ONLY pants that fit him well were "girl" pants. All the "boy"'s clothes were baggy. So, if it fits... what's the huge deal? Pants are pants. =\


----------



## CatsMom129 (Aug 29, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *MissAnthrope* 


> I tell my sons that they have penises, and some people have penises and some people don't


I find it interesting that you advocate gender neutrality, yet this wording contains some subtle sexism. In my view it would be more gender neutral to say, "Some people have penises, some have vulvas, and a few people even have some combination of the two." As it is worded here, the implication is that girls are people who lack something (a penis), rather than people who have their own complex anatomy, which is valuable in its own right.

I realize I may be nitpicking here. My point is simply that cultural attitudes can seep into our thinking, even when we do our best to challenge those cultural attitudes. Also, if my reading is off, and you have another reason for your wording, then please let me know.


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

"I am glad that your friend who wore a dress to school seems to have suffered no adverse reactions, but one can hardly say that because one person didn't, nobody would. I also think you may have misunderstood WHY I didn't allow my son to wear the dress for picture day. It was NOT because I thought it would make him gay or trans. It was because I was afraid he would be bullied (in his conservative suburban school) either now, or in the future and as he has little to no understanding of the consequences- I decided to make that decision for him."

Ok fair enough that's one anecdote. But I guess that's where we are with this. Anecdote and personal belief. We lack rigorous, unbiased studies. I can say that in this one case it wasn't an issue. When my friend was a kid, we had a law in place in the UK, which, in effect, made teachers absolutely unwilling to take any kind of stand against homophobic/trans bullying, and created a culture where, as a child who did not identify with the heternormative model, there was absolutely no representation, no mirror held up at all. I think it was probably worst than living before this law in some ways because at least, prior to this, teachers could have taken some action and introduced some non-straight ideas and so on, whereas after, even (especially) gay teachers were silenced. In effect, most teachers actively promoted heternormality-there was great fear of prosecution and also, a teacher who was themselves outed would have been in great trouble. Suicide among gay youth at that point was ludicrosly high and I've read a number of studies suggesting that there are ongoing mental health issues in the LGBT community as a hangover from this era. What I'm trying to say is that, first, his parents would probably have little cause to believe that sending him to school in a dress would work out ok but trusted and it actually was. It wasn't really something anyone felt the need to comment on, kids are more tolerant than I think we often believe. But secondly, kind of paradoxically, I think if you are in a situation anything like that then I do understand how difficult it must be. Its an awful, unnatural situation where we are dividing love into acceptable and unacceptable. I agree with Lisedea-its a dreadfully sad situation. I'm fortunate to be in a position to homeschool and I do appreciate not having to make my kids make these choices.

Its a small point too but I'd mention that my own son had long hair, wore pink and was mistaken for a girl for years, probably til he got a slightly shorter haircut last year, and yk, its never bothered him in the slightest. But he's not dealing with it alone, he spends a majority of his time in the HS community where the lines of weirdity are not only way, way further out than that but actually celebrated anyway, so I accept its a little different.

One thing I feel my friend and his siblings got from the dress wearing experience. None of them would ever laugh at someone wearing a dress because, in pride of place in their mum's photo album, is at least one of them in a frock. It is a normalising experience. My friend is also incredibly pro LGBT rights, and I really think that having had someone say yes, not no, to him when he wanted to bend the rules a little helped a lot with this. He sees it as a defining experience.


----------



## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

I have a son who loves "fashion" (less now than six months ago....he went through a whole Justin Beiber phase and decided purple was his favorite color) ....my issue is that it is next to impossible to find "boy clothes" with *pizazz* unless you want to pay a lot of money for them. We went to payless to get shoes....all the boys shoes were navy, black, brown...maybe some would light up but they all had transformers, trucks, etc on them. He wanted "shiny, glittery, fun"...the only options were super girly stuff. But he didn't want "girly" (pink, flowers, etc) he wanted stuff that was fashionable and shiny and cool. Why can't they make "boy" shoes with gold shiny lightning bolts or cool red studs or something? Or "boy" clothes that aren't boring? I had to look long and hard to find clothes that looked like something JB would wear that didn't cost an arm and a leg. Luckily i found some skinny jeans in size 4 at Target in bright colors (i think we got red, a bright blue, white, and black) and i was able to find some purple shirts that didn't have additional "girly" attachments (its harder than you might think to find a purple hoodie that has no lace, flowers, butterflies etc)....i sometimes wonder if a boy chooses "girl things" when really he just wants FABULOUS fun shiny cool things. If a boy wants to play with a horse with long hair he can brush often a pink or purple horse with flowers in its mane is his only option. If he likes the feeling of "twirling" often a dress is the only easily accessible option (but he might be just as happy with a tunic or cape or something like that if it was available) My son went through a period where he wanted to wear clips in his hair but it seems most of them were butterflies, flowers etc. NOT that there is anything wrong with a butterfly but why don't they make other options? (Im sure they do, but you have to look hard for them.)

My current personal pet clothing peeve is skulls on baby clothing. Don't know why. Its not like i find skulls particularly offensive. It just doesn't feel very babylike to me.


----------



## Mama505 (Jan 7, 2012)

queenjane- I also don't mind butterflies, and my DS loves them, but like you said they are all frills and lace, not like real butterflies which are truly beautiful (and could be super BLING-y in some iridescent colors, or bedazzled, or whatever). I am knitting DS some socks right now and the pattern has butterflies on them. He loves them, BUT the pattern clearly says that the butterflies can be hazardous if worn while riding bikes, playing on playgrounds, or doing anything a 3yo might possibly want to do (because they hang off the socks with long flappy wings).


----------



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

@ queenjane and re all the boys shoes were navy, black, brown...maybe some would light up but they all had transformers, trucks, etc on them. He wanted "shiny, glittery, fun"...the only options were super girly stuff.

Ok I've been through this one with ds. We got very into customising clothes. Say with the black shoes. Buy them, if that's all there is, and then go on ebay and get some sparkly purple laces, for example. With clips-my son had long hair for years so I know this one. Ebay will be your friend. Or if not ebay, get some plain clips and use a glue gun to stick cool stuff onto them. Its very, very easy. If you want purple hoodies without the frills, and both my son and my daughter did, buy plain ones and dye them. There are loads of options here. And its really a lot of fun and if you have a kid who likes fashion they will probably love modding their own clothes. I've done this with all my kids and I think its been helpful in passing on the idea that we don't have to accept the roles society hands us, we can actively create ourselves and influence how people see us.

The one very small point I'd chuck in there is that, IME of my own small kids who have not really been that exposed to societal norms, most kids are looking to have fun with their clothes. Re " sometimes wonder if a boy chooses "girl things" when really he just wants FABULOUS fun shiny cool things. If a boy wants to play with a horse with long hair he can brush often a pink or purple horse with flowers in its mane is his only option. If he likes the feeling of "twirling" often a dress is the only easily accessible option (but he might be just as happy with a tunic or cape or something like that if it was available)".

I think this is spot on, however IME a lot of girls are exactly the same but, because its easy for them to just get on with the pink and blue, no one really talks them through it and looks at the other options. If a girl likes twirling, she's just handed a dress and no one considers whether she'd be just as happy with a cape.


----------



## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

My DD has both capes and twirly dresses. She much prefers the dresses. She has dresses and skirts in all colors and wears them everywhere. She'll put either leggings or cartwheel/bike shorts underneath and she's ready to go. Often up in a tree.

My DS is really fussy about the feel of clothes. He never cared about the look. But when he was little, he REALLY wanted a soft jacket. Who decided that velour and furry cloth is only for girls?


----------



## Escaping (Nov 13, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lisedea*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For the record, I wouldn't tell my son it's wrong (not that I'm saying you said I did, just so no one misunderstands), I'd just say 'this is what's clean, put it on and go to school'.

Luckily I live in a big city and have several friends who are same sex couples both male and female, and have families just like "normal" people, so if my son does happen to be gay, hopefully he sees that there is life after grade school and the bullying will end one day. I have faith that one day bullying will be a thing of the past, but the sad reality is that we're currently living in that past. Kids still call each other "gay" as an insult, they see that same sex couples can't get married (and surely can put 2 and 2 together). No kid ever asks a boy "why are you wearing pants, are you straight?" because straight is seen as "normal" and no one cares. As soon as everyone is given equal rights and equal opportunity to live their lives, kids will be able to stop enquiring "why are you wearing a dress, are you gay?" because it won't matter.


----------



## Kamiro (Sep 3, 2011)

I love all colors and I like clothes! I'll dress a child in a rainbow if given a chance - love color.


----------



## Sphinxy (Oct 4, 2012)

The gendering of clothing and toys (really, everything) is so disgusting to me. It's gotten worse over time, not better. I don't fully understand that. We are taking steps backwards as a society in the way we view gender.

I wear blue all the time. I have blue eyes and it is one of the more flattering colors on me. I don't understand why I can wear a blue outfit and get lots of compliments, but if I dressed an infant daughter in blue people would question it.

Pink/peach/coral is a very common color for adult men's dress shirts. Similarly to my wearing of blue, I know many men who I work with who rock the salmon shirt with some frequency. Totally normal as adults, but again, if they or I dressed an infant boy that way, people would wonder why we were trying to be so radical.

It has nothing to do with sexuality. A few people posted about that earlier and I'm not going to call them out individually, but look... There are lesbians (self included!) who love dresses. My sexuality has nothing to do with whether my parents clothed me in skirts or overalls as a kid - in fact, they probably dressed me pretty gender neutral. I'm a lesbian because I prefer having sex with women over men, period. Hand me a power tool or a tux and I look like a fish out of water. My wife's parents on the other hand put her in a lot of dresses as a kid - but she's the athletic one in the family and is most likely to wear pants to a formal event. Similarly, there are gay men - many gay men! - who wear very traditionally masculine clothes, and aren't into fashion or decorating, etc. Those of us gay people who actually DO conform to traditional gender expression in our style are the silent majority I think, we aren't portrayed much on TV because we're boring. It's more fun to laugh at the gay guy who is obsessed over fashion or the lesbian all butched out in men's coveralls. But no matter how many pink ruffles you throw at your daughter (or hide from your son), there is just as much of a chance that they will end up gay like me as if you put her in cargo pants (or let him wear the dress). So how about just letting them wear what they want?


----------



## JNajla (Nov 1, 2012)

I think it's annoying. I have been direct and vocal about my "gender neutral" preference for gifts for my baby boy. Some of my family doesn't understand, some "get it". It would be worse if I was expecting a girl- I LOATHE the color pink! Gah!


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Did i mention the story where my 4yo's preschool teacher told me i could not longer send him to school in his favorite pink coat because it was bad for his self esteem? (cringe not).

I kept that lovely pink coat for my younger son. When he was 4, he was allowed to wear the coat at preschool(no comment was made), but the mother of one of his classmates, 'donated' a blue coat to him...i accepted the coat graciously because it was a good coat. Should i have said something? Its so obvious to me, its hardly worth mentioning....


----------



## Epiphany11 (Dec 13, 2013)

I wish we didn't have to shop in the boys' section to get denim, plaid and camo for our girls! 

I also think it would be nice if dinosaurs didn't count as a "boy" interest. Why should they?


----------



## Epiphany11 (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm a new mom, and I'm so annoyed that everything in the girls' section is pink (or has some pink on it), and if it's not it has ruffles or lace or sparkles or hearts...it's just too much, and there are no other options! And the boys' section isn't much better!

There's a new kids' clothing company that's making clothes that go beyond pink and blue. They're looking for input on their designs now: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/jillandjacksurvey


----------



## skycheattraffic (Apr 16, 2012)

I took the survey and loved what I saw








I actually just bought a sewing machine and plan to make a bunch of bright, cheerful, comfy stuff for my girls.


----------



## Epiphany11 (Dec 13, 2013)

Thanks! We're really excited about the new line!


----------



## Ireadtomuch (Jul 12, 2013)

I'm kind of annoyed with the fact that you can't find just plain white onsies to dye everything comes gendered i'm planning on buying a lot of white onsies in various sizes and dying them into jewel tones green teal blue deep purple color, and red, orange, and yellow. i DON'T like the fact that all the girl stuff comes with hard to care for glitter, or sparkles or lace. I remember how much lace itched as a kid..... (got in trouble for cutting the netting out of a dress because it itched). Anyways all baby clothing used to be white so you could bleach it, I just wish i could find a sleeping gown that's not gendered towards girls, it's a lot easier to change a baby at 2am if you don't have to wrestle them out of pants.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ireadtomuch*
> 
> I'm kind of annoyed with the fact that you can't find just plain white onsies to dye I just wish i could find a sleeping gown that's not gendered towards girls, it's a lot easier to change a baby at 2am if you don't have to wrestle them out of pants.


I didn't know the sex of either of my babies before birth, so I received tons of plain white onesies and gender neutral gowns. In my area at least, they aren't hard to find. I suppose it would be tough to find non-"girly" gowns for older babies, but I didn't use gowns for my boy or girl past the 0-3 month stage, because once they started rolling gowns would just get twisted up.

One place I always see lots of plain white onesies, if you're having trouble finding them in clothing stores, is the craft store, usually near the iron-on patches and embellishments.


----------

