# Whipping Babies #2



## lovemybaby

Hi everyone - I'm writing about the Pearl's book ToTrain Up a Child that was brought up in the Whipping Babies thread a while back: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hipping+babies

I hadn't read much of the book and because of all the heated discussion of it I got it from the library and sat down and read the whole thing. It's just awful; throughout the book the Pearls recommend whipping infants and toddlers on their bare skin. There are examples of whipping 4 month, 7 month, and 12 month old babies. They recommend whipping for crying in their cribs, for crying for their mothers. If a toddler has a tantrum they say to give him "a swift forceful spanking." And on p.44 they say not to let the chlid's crying while being hit to "cause you to lighten up on the intensity or duration of the spanking." They say to continue whipping until their crying turns into a "wounded, submissive whimper." They recommend whipping a 3 year old until he is "totally broken." They say that if a chlid does obey before being whipped, whip them anyway. And "if you have to sit on him to spank him, then do not hesitate." They say to always hit with some sort of whip and on p.47 they recommend their various whips, including "a belt or larger tree branch."























Oh and they also recommend pulling babies' hair, tripping a non-swimming toddler so she falls into deep water, and making children go hungry if they don't like what you're serving for dinner! And if children lose their shoes, "let them go without until they (the children) can make the money to buy more." They say to ignore a baby's bumped head when he falls to the floor, ignore skinned knees, and "if your child is roughed-up by peers, rejoice."









I found out the Pearls' methods have resulted in parents being investigated by Child Protective Services, children taken away from the parents, restraining orders issued against parents, and a babysitter going to jail
















Please everyone, let's speak out about this! Amazon.com is selling this book. Please write a review! It can just be a sentence or two: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/fl...er-review-form
You can read the whole book at:
http://city.hokkai.or.jp/~repent/Eng...s/TrainUp.html

The more concerned reviews from us, the less likely new parents will buy this book and get sucked into this toxic style of parenting.









Thank you everyone!!!








Mommy to little sweetie


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## TiredX2

Kinda makes me wonder what kind of adults they make (are they all in cults? easily told what to do? into S&M?)

Quote:

For the next weary forty-five minutes, fifteen times the child would make his legs move, and the daddy would turn him around and spank his legs. The father was as calm as a lazy porch swing on a Sunday afternoon. There was no hastiness or anger. He did not take the disobedience personally. He had trained many a horse or mule and knew the value of patient perseverance. In the end, the twelve-month-old submitted his will to his father, sat as he was placed, and became content--even cheerful.
uke


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## spero

I'm not sure I can even find words for that kind of evil.

I cannot begin to imagine what kind of people would buy a book like that. Or who would even publish it.

Doesn't surprise me that Amazon would sell it, though...it's all about the almighty $$$.

It makes me physically ill to imagine children being treated as described in that horrible book.


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## girlzmommy00

I decided to skip the review and just contacted Amazon directly...Here's my e mail

Quote:

I'm writing to express great concern about a book you are currently offering for sale. It's called "To Train Up A Child" by Michael Pearl. The book describes in detail about ways to abuse your child. It discusses using a large tree branch to hit your child with and whipping a 4 month old child on their bare skin. People have been arrested, jailed and had their children taken away for following the suggestions in this book.
I'm disgusted that Amazon would sell anything that would offer people suggestions and instruction on the illegal activity of abusing children.


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## cappuccinosmom

lovemybaby, do you have links to the info about people being investigated for following the Pearl's teachings?

I'm curious. I've seen a lot of former-Ezzo folks writings, some even devote whole web sites to the purpose of rebutting the Ezzo's, but nothing on the Pearl's. Not even a disgruntled former church member, or someone who had to disfellowship the Pearl's in the past. Even all thier children have stuck with them. 4 out of the 5 are married, and 3 of them already have children or are expecting.

I'm also surprised that a family would be investigated for *following* the Pearl's teachings, while the Pearl's themselves are not.

Wierd.


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## onlyboys

God. I feel like vomiting.

This book was actually recommended to me by an old friend of my husband's. She said,"Have you read To Train Up a Child? It has some really good advice about how to break your kids and bend them to your will." I replied that I like his will.

Her 15 month old son literally sat still for 45 minutes at a playground because she didn't want him to play.

I think an email to her is in order. How dare she recommend I abuse my son.

I'm thoroughly disgusted.


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## phathui5

I believe someone is finally putting together an anti-Pearl website. I'll see if I can find the link.


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## User101

When I read this book it made me cry. It was truly disgusting to see how evil some people believe their own children to be. We have friends who really believe that their children are depraved. I finally asked them, if you believe your baby is in such a state of depravity, how much more so are you, since you're an adult and are supposed to know better. I don't understand people who use religion as an excuse to be selfish and "bend their child's will" so that they (the adults) can have their own way.


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## famousmockngbrd

Quoted from To Train Up a Child:
As the mother, holding her child, leans over the crib and begins the swing downward, the infant stiffens, takes a deep breath and bellows. The battle for control has begun in earnest. Someone is going to be conditioned. Either the tender-hearted mother will cave in to this self-centered demand (thus training the child to get his way by crying) or the infant is allowed to cry (learning that crying is counterproductive). Crying because of genuine physical need is simply the infant's only voice to the outside world; but crying in order to manipulate the adults into constant servitude should never be rewarded. Otherwise, you will reinforce the child's growing self-centeredness, which will eventually become socially intolerable.








He's talking about an infant, here. This guy has major problems. I am appalled at how many times he used words like "submit" and "subjugate". He makes it very clear that his goal is to produce children who obey unquestioningly, not children who can think for themselves. And the way you get mentally submissive children apparently is by physically dominating them.







I can't believe anyone even takes these people seriously.


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## phathui5

Ahh. I found it. An anti-Pearl site, put together by a Christian
http://www.kjsl.com/~lindav/notrain.htm


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## littleaugustbaby

This thread has me in tears. Someone should arrest these people.

I'm not normally a letter-writer, but Amazon is definitely going to hear from me, as well as any other major bookseller that carries this piece of garbage book.


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## CharlieBrown

thanks for the link


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## lynsage

"To Train Up A Child" was one of the recommended books on child-rearing in the materials that the first midwife we spoke to about attending our home birth sent us!









we were absolutely horrified, and needless to say, we did not contact her again!


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## Towerkel

As a former beaten child,

I can tell you that it works! NOT NOT NOT

If anything, it has made my life so much more miserable. The thought of doing this to a child sickens me, and yet, because I experienced this as a child, there is a part of me that feels the need to perpetrate such actions. Fortunately, my will to not cause harm to my child wins over everytime.

Yeah, use a belt on a child, because they will not remember the WELTS on thier bottoms. They won't remember how much it stings the hands to block the belt from hitting you for a fifth, or tenth time. They'll love you for it in the long run.And they'll be obedient because they'll see the love you have for them, not because they fear you and fear getting whipped.
















However, some of those reviews are just as bad, to paraphrase one... This book should be burned along with its authors. Um, HELLO?

Sorry, I really have no point here, it just upsets me.


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## asherah

Where is the vomit emoticon?
This is making me physically ill.


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## DebraBaker

The reason Michael and Debbi Pearl aren't arrested for child abuse is they deliberately waited for their own five children to be grown before they wrote and promoted this bile.

Seriously they brag about this in one of their newsletters (the same one in which Debbi Pearl writes about whipping her own *granddaughter*.

I honestly cannot imagine raising my hand to my granddaughter how sick is that.

I'm off to visit that anti-Pearl webpage, I'm so glad someone is addressing this evil.

Debra Baker


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## magnoliablue

I wonder, do they place their kids in a room, full of those puppy "wee-wee" pads, and potty train them that way? If they have an "accident" do they rub their noses in it?

I am sick, sick , sick beyond belief that somewhere, someone thinks this is ok. What is wrong with this world? How the HELL,sorry, have to use something stronger..do you treat a baby this way? I am sad to the core.


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## hjohnson

I had a friend recommend the site http://www.nogreaterjoy.org She told me that she was using the parenting tips recommended there and her 17 month old son was happy and obedient. I saw the website and I was uke I may be a Christian but uke The Pearls make the Ezzos look sort of tame. My son is an obedient child when he wants because he is a toddler. I definitely don't spank him!


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## BetsyPage

I agree, it's horrid, evil stuff. I wonder about the psychology of someone who can convince themselves it's "loving" to switch their baby. I'm a Christian, & I think the Pearls & Ezzos are criminal in their recommendations, and do a great deal to damage the reputation of Christianity. They are at odds with Christ's message IMO.


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## DebraBaker

Wee-wee puppy pads would be kind compared to what they actually do.....they take the toddler outside (regardless of the weather) and hose them down with cold hose water.

I kid you not.

db


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## TiredX2

That actually does sound like abuse that should be reported, and I sure would if I saw my neighbor doing so.


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## hjohnson

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
Wee-wee puppy pads would be kind compared to what they actually do.....they take the toddler outside (regardless of the weather) and hose them down with cold hose water.

I kid you not.

db

That is sick! uke


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## lovemybaby

In answer to cappuccinosmom "lovemybaby, do you have links to the info about people being investigated for following the Pearl's teachings?"

You can read about the children being taken away from parents, the babysitter being put in jail, etc. for using the Pearl's methods by reading the existing reviews at Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...me&start-at=11
Some of the reviews are heartrending, of moms who tried these methods and now regret all the damage they caused their children. One of the reviewers believes the Pearl's methods caused a bowel obstruction problem in her little daughter, plus caused big-time behavior problems.

Glad to know there's a website to counter what the Pearls are advocating - I'm going to check that out









Thanks everyone for writing reviews and sending emails to Amazon - it helps
















Mommy to little sweetie


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## Peppermint

These are the same people that say that the world has gone all to he!! b/c of parents not disciplining, let's see- what would make a violent person
#1- crying baby is picked up, cuddled and nursed
#2- crying baby is switched until they can cry no more
Sure- it's all those people treating their babies gently that are the problem







.

These people make me sick. Amazon will be hearing from me.


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## spero

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nursing Mother*
Does anyone know how their 5 children are now that they are grown?

Wonder how many emotional hangups they might have, or are they considered wonderful, well-adjusted people now?

Well, considering that they apparently allow Grandma Debi to beat *their* children, I'd have to assume that they're still pretty screwed up.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
Seriously they brag about this in one of their newsletters (the same one in which Debbi Pearl writes about whipping her own *granddaughter*.


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## cappuccinosmom

Thier five children are all grown, 4 married, 3 with or expecting children. The ones with children seem to have no problem bringing them around thier grandparents.

And I wanted to point out that when they wrote the book, thier children were not grown. The oldest was in her teens, I think. So there has been ample opportunity for them to be investigated, and I'm surprised it hasn't happened.


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## Greaseball

Quote:

And I wanted to point out that when they wrote the book, thier children were not grown. The oldest was in her teens, I think. So there has been ample opportunity for them to be investigated, and I'm surprised it hasn't happened.
To be investigated, someone would have to report them, and it has to be someone who lives near them - the police and CPS aren't reading the Amazom reviews. As I understand, they live in a very isolated religious community. Places like that often have their own "laws" they follow and enforce, and are far removed from the rest of society so they can continue to live this way. Someone from the community would have to call the police, and no one is likely to do that.









Also, even in regular society, children who report their parents' abuse often find the calls are not followed up on, especially if it's a teenager making the report. I remember working for crisis centers and the CPS workers telling us they had no more room for teen cases; that no calls regarding teens could be acted upon until all the calls about children under 6 were taken care of.

These people make Ezzo look like someone I would want to be friends with. uke


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## BFandHS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
lovemybaby, do you have links to the info about people being investigated for following the Pearl's teachings?

I'm curious. I've seen a lot of former-Ezzo folks writings, some even devote whole web sites to the purpose of rebutting the Ezzo's, but nothing on the Pearl's.

I was thinking the same thing. I just registered in order to reply. I was so frustrated by the lack of anti-Pearl info on the web that I made a web page in response to their teaching. I have put everything I can find refuting their teaching there and hope to find more. I'd really like to find the links about the investigations. I did see the baby sitter one, but it's obvious that one cannot get away with hitting someone else's child.

I encourage everyone to take a look at my site, pass around the link and let me know if you have anything you want me to post there. http://www.kjsl.com/~lindav/notrain.htm

Linda V. mom of 2 unschooling boys ages 11 and 13


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## attachmentfeminist

_"My children want to please me. They try so hard to do everything I say. We have such fun together"_

BECAUSE THEY'RE TERRIFIED OF YOU!!!!

WHAT THE HE11 IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE????

Sorry for the caps, but my god! My mother had 5 children. She spanked us on the butt through jeans on the rare occasion she spanked at all. My father spanked us bare skinned with a leather strap.

We respect our mother, and she and I are very close. My father and I never got along for longer than 30 minutes and the entire house was walking on eggshells until he died. I did NOT respect him and grew to make a habit out of lying to him to save my own flesh. I do not lie to my mother.

Matt's been spanked a few times when I was just at the end of my rope, never ever EVER on bare skin, and never ever EVER with my hand, and I always do my best to not spank at all. He's a smart, funny, polite child who always says please and thank you, often without being asked.

Wonder how all this happened without a switch. Amazon will be hearing from me, buddy!


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## attachmentfeminist

I also don't get any of the reasoning behind pulling a poor baby's hair for biting you while nursing AT ALL. It was always plenty of repercussion to simply take the boobie away. That's what taught Matt. Bite the boobie, I can't have it anymore.

And as we know, most nursing kiddos will do anything to obtain the precious boobie!


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## Yummymummy74

This is just beyond demented...I have heard of this book before but had no clue it was on this level.

Just when I thought Ezzo was king the king of lunacy.

Hmmmmm







:


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## lovemybaby

In my original post I left out the part in the book where Michael Pearl encourages toddlers to touch a hot stove, and Debi Pearl hits a 2 yo so hard a "karate chop like wheeze comes from deep inside him"
















Something has got to be done about these people. I was just reading about how Michael Pearl is expecting to be arrested someday. The sheriff in his county wants to get something done about the Pearls. So far the Pearls have escaped jail, though. As far as their kids go, well sure, what are they going to do with such powerful, controlling and demented parents?? They're going to do the same stuff to THEIR kids. They learned what they grew up with, and are probably terrified to go against their own parents' methods in fear of offending them. And they probably can't wait to revenge themselves on someone. Michael Pearl admits in the book that he wants revenge for the beatings he suffered himself as a child. The "Godly" talk is just a coverup, IMO.


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## Greaseball

Quote:

She told the screaming child (a rag doll). "No! That's not nice. You can't have it now. Stop your crying. SWITCH, SWITCH. If you don't stop crying, Mama will have to spank you again. SWITCH, SWITCH, SWITCH. OK, stop crying now. That's better. Now see if you can play happily."
HOW can ANYONE think this is a GOOD thing?!!!







This little girl obviously has serious problems. I can't believe the Pearls are using this as a positive example of their parenting! I'm sure if any teacher, therapist, or ANY OTHER PERSON BESIDES THESE FREAKS saw someone playing with dolls that way, they would be concerned.









Also, I wonder what the Pearls think of wife-beating?


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## attachmentfeminist

I'm certain they don't agree with beating one's wife. However, sometimes to train her, it requires a few good whacks now and again.


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## yeah yeah yeah

Quote:


Originally Posted by *attachmentfeminist*
I'm certain they don't agree with beating one's wife. However, sometimes to train her, it requires a few good whacks now and again.


I'm fairly certain the _do_ agree with beating one's wife. I'm sure there's some biblical reasons they could show you to point out how righteous it is...


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## cappuccinosmom

>I'm fairly certain the do agree with beating one's wife. I'm sure there's some biblical reasons they could show you to point out how righteous it is...








Could we stick to what is *known*, rather than speculating? There is obviously plenty about the Pearl's people find disagreeable, and it doesn't help the anti-Pearl case to state things about them that you don't know are true, or that they don't teach. Being on the fence, and not totally into GD, it doesn't really endear me to the cause when people go beyond known facts for the express purpose of making someone look even worse. I know plenty of spanking parents and the concept of spanking children is to them totally different than wife-beating. While there are passages in the Bible that some interpret as promoting of spanking, there is nothing in the Bible that would in any way OK wife-beating, by any stretch of the imagination.

Other than that, I am finding this discussion very edifying.


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## yeah yeah yeah

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
>I'm fairly certain the do agree with beating one's wife. I'm sure there's some biblical reasons they could show you to point out how righteous it is...








Could we stick to what is *known*, rather than speculating? There is obviously plenty about the Pearl's people find disagreeable, and it doesn't help the anti-Pearl case to state things about them that you don't know are true, or that they don't teach. Being on the fence, and not totally into GD, it doesn't really endear me to the cause when people go beyond known facts for the express purpose of making someone look even worse. I know plenty of spanking parents and the concept of spanking children is to them totally different than wife-beating. While there are passages in the Bible that some interpret as promoting of spanking, there is nothing in the Bible that would in any way OK wife-beating, by any stretch of the imagination.

Other than that, I am finding this discussion very edifying.









As far as I can tell most people's concept of "spanking" is a little different from these Pearl ideas, too.

So... I don't know why I should be "nice" about someone that reccomends child abuse.

And... stretch the "submissive" idea... our forefathers sure did. Ever heard of the Rule of Thumb?


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## lovemybaby

The Pearls aren't into wife-beating. They're into the wife being totally submissive to the husband, so I guess he never has to bother beating her into submission







They also believe a woman shouldn't work outside the home (is that why Debi Pearl babysits other people's kids??)

It was Michael Pearl who started the whole whipping babies business, not Debi. She got into it because of his ideas, and because she's a "submissive wife."









It's good to sound off about these people. I'm just so shocked that this sort of thing goes on, with so much acceptance by churches & Amazon & all.


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## DebraBaker

I don't believe wife beating has ever been addressed but Michael Pearl *has* (in writing) said that a wife of a pediphile husband (molesting his children) should take the man back into the home and bed after he has served his time.

This is beyond belief for me.

Debra Baker


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## yeah yeah yeah

I know that they are into Dog beating... I once read something he wrote about a "defiant" dog that wanted to sleep in the bathroom.


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## Victorian

This is moving through the mainstream babtist churches as we speak. They have parenting classes based on it. It you have any doubt as to the level of evil this is, check out the website above. Please don't when your children are awake ,you tears will upset them.

My business partner took these classes and is wholeheartedly and loveyling beating her children. Acoording to her when they are "babysitting" children, they are actually "training" them for the parents. Spineless things that they are. I still don't know what do about this.

He actually states on the website that they waited until their children were older to publish this book so that they would not get into trouble.

evil, evil, evil. I did finally ask my christian MIL about this and she was shocked.

Victorian (NAK)


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## hjohnson

Be careful about including all Baptist churches in the bunch. My parents go to an Independent Baptist Church and the church hasn't heard of the Ezzos or the Pearls. In fact I have seen a couple baby slings at their church.


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## AllyRae

This is just sick.... How could ANYONE think this is acceptable??


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## BFandHS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemybaby*
You can read about the children being taken away from parents, the babysitter being put in jail, etc. for using the Pearl's methods by reading the existing reviews at Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...me&start-at=11

To make it easier to find the correct reviews, here is more info:
Set it to show oldest first and find reviews # 6 (Feb 12, 2001) #33 (March 7, 2002), #38 (June 19, 2002),#68 (March 17, 2004)

By the way, I added a Stop The Rod Activism page to my web site. http://www.kjsl.com/~lindav/activism.htm


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## weesej

I have met 2 people in the last few months that have recommended Pearl. The first was at the Independant Baptist church I attended, said her DD would play with the rod like it was a fishing pole.

The second is a woman I really like and respect. Told me how she attachment parents, nurses 3 years, co-sleeps, etc and then asked if I had read to train up a child. She used to get Mothering---she just came out of the Amish church 5 years ago and still attends a plain church. Her kids are great, I really like this family. She was shocked when I mentioned some of the things brought up here. Would never hit a baby. She did however tell me last time we were together that Pearl has come out with a video on child training

BTW even Dr. Sears says that consistant gentle discipline is best, consistant spanking #2, and a lack of disciplne the worst. He also says if you are going to spank to use a switch or flexible rod, not your hands---that he has seen too many cases of parents hitting too hard and seriously hurting their children--that you cannot do permanant physical damage with a flexible object.

In any case food for thought.


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## eclipse

i read the discipline book, and i don't remember Dr. Sears EVER saying to hit with a stick/rod/other object. i believe he actually said that if you insisted upon doing it, to only do it with an open hand.


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## eclipse

from his website

Quote:

Should you use your open hand, paddle, or a switch to spank? Use of any one of the above will not cause permanent physical harm if you avoid too much force. The one tool we definitely advise against is a wooden spoon because we have seen bodily injury result from this club-like instrument. Any spanking that leaves black and blue marks (bruising) is wrong whether you use an object or your hand. Keep your hand open and flat-a fisted hand will be too forceful and damaging. A child old enough to spank (see number 6) will also understand that your loving hand is holding the spanking tool. The hand-versus-object debate is meaningless to him.

in any case, i think its sad that he even has this section in his book.


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## lovemybaby

I get so tired of defenses to hitting babies and children. Dr. Sears has become quite famous because of attachment parenting, a style of parenting done all over the world for many centuries by many societies, and by other mammals. Dr. Sears gets no points from me for saying not to use a wooden spoon and not to hit "too hard." What's "too hard?" How do you really know until afterward if it was "too hard?" Injuries to babies and children tend to be more hidden than in adults. Being spanked as a child can result in chronic lower back pain in adulthood, chiropractors are now saying. I saw an X-ray of a 15 month old girl who had been "only spanked" and her spine actually broke in two. Adults forget how much bigger and stronger they are.

According to the New England Journal of Medicine, between 1,000 and 2,000 children DIE from corporal punishment every year in the US. Like insisting babies and children be properly restrained in a car seat to protect them from injury and death, babies and children should be protected from being hit. Because hitting CAN injure; hitting CAN kill.

Why do we hit children in this country? Why don't we stop it? It's even been illegal to hit felons in the US since mid-20th century. Adults do it because they can get away with it, and excuse it by saying it's in the Bible, that kids need it sometimes, that it "works," that some kids don't understand anything else, blah blah blah. The truth is, borne out by over 100 research studies in the last couple decades, that any form of hitting can cause both psychological injury and physical injury, and that hitting children can kill them. Hitting children has been shown to have one and only one benefit: short-term compliance. That's it. And other, non-physical forms of discipline, which do not injure or kill, have been proven to work just as well in obtaining short-term compliance. Not one, no not one, study has shown ANY benefit from hitting children, as opposed to other, non-physical methods.

There's no valid excuse for hitting children. All along the continuum, from that which supposedly is not "too hard" to that which kills, is bad for children. And what is bad for children is bad for society, because children grow into adults. We forget that, don't we? If we instill violence into children, those children will later be prone to commit violence to others, and to themselves. Murder, assault, domestic violence, are committed by those who suffered violence upon their bodies as children. Research has proven this also.

14 countries have banned all hitting of children. Of all industrialized nations, the US tolerates hitting children more than any other. We also have the most violent crime per capita than any other industrialized nation. We haven't ratified the UN Rights of the Child - unlike 191 UN nations. Only 2 nations, the US and Somalia (!) have not ratified this treaty. President Bush, among his other lovely qualities, has promised the Christian Right he will oppose all attempts to ratify this most basic treaty granting children safety from harm.


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## Kinipela79

check out www.stoptherod.com


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## lovemybaby

Hi Kinipela, the website you mentioned is actually http://stoptherod.net It's a good petition to sign









Thank you mamapenelope - I was starting to wonder about this thread! The original purpose, of course, was to write reviews of the Pearl's book. I see hundreds of people are viewing this thread - how about some more reviews?? You get to vent and it does some good too - just click here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/fl...er-review-form
The whole book can be read on-line at: http://city.hokkai.or.jp/~repent/Eng...s/TrainUp.html


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## phathui5

I read the whole book there a while ago and was depressed for quite a while. I want to say "brace yourself," but that doesn't sounds right. Just go in prepared if you read that crap.


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## Justice2

OMG. This is the single most depressing thing that I have ever read. I couldn't help but to think about all of those poor babies. Why would ANYONE want to hit their 4 month old baby? Pull a nursing baby's hair? OMG. I am just sick.

My neighbor uses a switch on her 18 month old. It's been difficult to be her friend for the last 18 months, our children are 3 days apart in age. Her feeding habits (chocolate milk at 6 months old), they started popping her when she was about 6 months old too and she started to get into things. Now, at 18 months old, she is switching her and it breaks my heart. I keep telling her how frikkin awful it is to hit your children, Kaeleb has never been spanked, but she says that her dd won't listen any other way. It just makes me so hard. I am moving in a month and am so glad that I won't have to see her do it anymore.


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## CookieMonsterMommy

Quote:

Just last night while sitting in a meeting, I looked over to see a young mother struggling with her small child. He *seemed determined to make her life as miserable as possible--and destroy her reputation in the process*. He kept defiantly throwing his bottle on the floor (assisted by her picking it up and handing it back to him) and making angry noises that forced the preacher to scream louder and louder. With threats of increasingly embarrassing displays, he forced her to put him down on the floor where he proceeded to audition for circus clown while insisting on procuring a neighbor's property. When she tried to prevent his *thievery* and rescue the stolen goods, he kicked his feet like an eggbeater and screamed his protest.

*It was enough to make you believe the Devil started out as an infant.* I am just thankful that one-year-olds don't weigh two-hundred pounds, or a lot more mothers would be victims of homicide. It causes one to understand where the concept of a "sinful nature" originated.
What in the name of God...? The parts I bolded are the ones that really catch my heart. COmparing a one year old to the Devil??? Aren't they upposed to play that "I drop it, you get it" game? That's a normal part of their development!!! And as if a small child like that could EVER have suck mean intentions toward his mother....







:

And a baby picking up someone else belongings is not thievery!!

This whole thread has sickened me....even on Amazon, there are "Good", 5 star reviews.....

Why even have the damn kids? Now I'm all worked up...


----------



## BlueBelle

Oh my god! I'm seriously crying over here, just having read some of the EXCERPTS that y'all have posted! I sure as hell am NOT going to read the whole effing book now--I don't think my heart could take it! Call me tenderhearted if you will, but beating babies and children? What the hell? I can't even smack my mom's dog when he gets rowdy...how could I do that to my baby?

This makes me sick!


----------



## DebraBaker

I (along with many other longtime moms) have noticed that I get snarkey when I read these books. I question my own gd practices and second guess myself.

So, BlueBell, go with your gut and skip the friggin book.

DB


----------



## Jamie and Griffin

Quote:

Ever heard of the Rule of Thumb?
Just so you know, the rule of thumb has nothing to do with beating anyone http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000512.html

The Pearls are some scary folk. Even scarier is that there are so many people who ignore their instincts and fall for this crap. How does that happen?


----------



## LittleYellow

Just saw this post and went to Amazon to read the reviews and they are not there: "We're sorry, but reviews are currently not available for this product. Please check back soon."

Does this have anything to do with the MDC review writing movement?


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## lovemybaby

What's "snarkey?" It really is a toxic book. It's not only full of whipping babies and other abuse but lots of crazy talk.

I just checked Amazon and you can still write reviews at: http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-re...00&store=books

This book has gone down from 3 stars to 2 stars in a few weeks! I just did the math, and with another 49 1 star reviews it'll be down to 1 1/2 stars!!!!

Though it really deserves 0 or negative stars...


----------



## nova22

snarky

(adjective) describes a witty mannerism, personality, or behavior that is a combination of sarcasm and cynicism. Usually accepted as a complimentary term. Snark is sometimes mistaken for a snotty or arrogant attitude.

from urbandictionary.com

back to the topic at hand. this book makes children seem like horrible, wretched little demons that no one wants or likes. why do you have children just to treat them in this way? they are to be loved, not to be trained and whipped. how awful.


----------



## lovemybaby

Here's a place to write the Pearls directly: http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=7 I wrote them and just put xxxx's in the required fields and it worked. I gave them a piece of my mind!

I notice their "snail mail" address on that page says they live at 1000 Pearl Road. So they have their own road?? These people must be filty rich from all the child abuse they promote







One source says they've sold over 200,000 copies of their book since it was published 10 years ago uke uke uke


----------



## Greaseball

I'm surprised they would give out their home address.


----------



## CerridwenLorelei

and yes their kids are perpetuating this
An ad came through to our hs group newsletter ( if our director had realized what it was she said she would have returned the check)
His dd sent the ad she is doing curriculum now with how to work in beating your kids around the coursework :barf


----------



## sleeping queen

Has anyone here actually read the whole book?


----------



## pumpkinhead

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleeping queen*
Has anyone here actually read the whole book?


I'm working on it. IT's a pretty tough read tho. I've read Ezzo's book as well. THe reason? Well, it seems that when I spout off to people about these books, some one will ineviably say "WEll, have you actually READ the whole thing?". SO now, I can say YES!

How do these degenerates find people to publish this crap?


----------



## DebraBaker

I have read it. It isn't a difficult challenge you can read TTUAC online.

Laura, are you *defending* the Pearls?!!

DB


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## lovemybaby

I've read the whole thing. Actually last year someone sent me the book because she thought I should know what kind of stuff is being sold to gullible parents. She warned me about the Pearl's "methods." I started reading a little of it, and I was so repelled that I immediately threw the thing in recycling! But then after the first "Whipping Babies" thread I decided I really should read all of it, because so many people were talking about it and were upset by it. So I read it cover to cover. It's hard to describe the effect it had on me, sort of like making my blood boil, and feeling sick that this kind of talk is promoted in some circles, and shocked and miserable that actual babies in real life were being subjected to this extreme abuse. Then I really felt like doing something about it









The Pearls, BTW, publish this book themselves. That's why it says on Amazon that it takes 4-5 weeks to receive it when you order it. They're raking in close to 100% of the profits, which must be considerable.























Making your living from child abuse...and they call their No Greater Joy business a "ministry" and that their mission is to help misguided parents...good people need to speak up about this horror. It's just wrong wrong wrong


----------



## DaryLLL

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
I have read it. It isn't a difficult challenge you can read TTUAC online.

Laura, are you *defending* the Pearls?!!

DB

Good call, DB.


----------



## sleeping queen

I've read their book and while I don't agree with some of it I came a way with a few things. Here is a direct quote from Chapter 4 Tying strings "Without that mutual respect and honor, further discipline only angers and embitters the child." I think in that chapter the emphasis of knowing your child and the parents responsibility in devoloping a good relationship is probably what I remember best from the book. I think one could use some of their common sense approach to children with what ever type of discipline you use in your home.


----------



## DaryLLL

Again, for those who wish to read the book without buying it:

http://city.hokkai.or.jp/~repent/En...es/TrainUp.html

I just started it and was repelled by the odd metaphors at the very beginning of chapter one. What kind of mind wrote this? A psychopath.

Quote:

I have had children in my house that would be _enough to give an electric wheat grinder a nervous breakdown._ The parents look like _escapees from a Second World War, Polish boxcar. Another hour with them, and I would have been searching the yellow-pages for discount vasectomies._ While we try to sit and talk, the children are constantly running in and out of doors, complaining of ill treatment from the others, begging to go or stay or eat, or demanding a toy that the other children will not relinquish. The mother must continually jump up and rescue some breakable object. _She says, "No" six-hundred and sixty-six times_ in the space of two hours. She spanks each child two or three times--usually with her hand on top of a diaper. Other than misaligning the child's spine, it seems to have no effect.


----------



## pumpkinhead

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleeping queen*
I've read their book and while I don't agree with some of it I came a way with a few things. Here is a direct quote from Chapter 4 Tying strings "Without that mutual respect and honor, further discipline only angers and embitters the child." I think in that chapter the emphasis of knowing your child and the parents responsibility in devoloping a good relationship is probably what I remember best from the book. I think one could use some of their common sense approach to children with what ever type of discipline you use in your home.


I agree with you that there are some eloquent passages in this book about discipline vs. training. I agree that he says things that ring true and are even principles of gentle discipline. But, he ruins ALL of this with the means by which he chooses to attain this training and discipline. How does one achieve mutual respect from a baby by switching him? The same goes for the repeated spanking of a child for crying or of continually engaging in battles of wills and power struggles with your child? This only teaches them that if you're bigger than someone, you can make them do whatever you want them to.


----------



## DaryLLL

Here by contrast is the picture of "good" children raised the Pearl way:

Quote:

For the next two hours we are not even aware the children are present--except when a little one comes in holding herself saying, "Pee-pee, Mama." They play together well, resolve their own conflicts and don't expect attention when one turns the rocking horse over and gets a knot on her head
!!!


----------



## phathui5

I've read the whole book. I'll admit that there were a few things that made sense. But there was so much crap that it canceled the good stuff out. I'm not going to weed through their book for nuggets of wisdom when I can get whole books where most of it is loving and gentle.


----------



## DaryLLL

OK, I can't read this book without wanting to come here again and again to complain. The guy doesn't even understand the Engish language. For some reason he insisits on making a distinction between training ("good") as opposed to discipline ("bad"). Looking the word discipline up in dictionary.com one finds:

Quote:

discipline--

*Training* expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior, especially *training* that produces moral or mental improvement.
Controlled behavior resulting from disciplinary *training*; self-control.

Control obtained by enforcing compliance or order.

Punishment intended to correct or *train*.


----------



## Marsupialmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemybaby*
I notice their "snail mail" address on that page says they live at 1000 Pearl Road. So they have their own road?? These people must be filty rich from all the child abuse they promote







One source says they've sold over 200,000 copies of their book since it was published 10 years ago uke uke uke


Actually this is not true. If they live in a rural area the little road that goes to their house could be named that. My grandparents almost had there street named after them but some on from the state decided to mess with the other inhabitants on the road (Causy was changed to Callsy







) when they got 911 service to their area.

We have several other farmer friends since 911 services has started have had their streets/road driveways name after their family. The people across the way from my other grandfather own a delapadated trailer but their street is named after them (because of 911 service).


----------



## Greaseball

On the Pearl's website, Debi Pearl mentioned that she co-slept and breastfed until age 2. I don't care. That does not impress me when compared to everything else she does.

I'd rather know a parent who formula-fed by choice and never spanked!


----------



## sleeping queen

I'd be interested to know how the Pearl's children feel about their upbringing. I think many people parent as a reaction to how they were parented.


----------



## Jennifer Z

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleeping queen*
I'd be interested to know how the Pearl's children feel about their upbringing. I think many people parent as a reaction to how they were parented.

I am sure Pearl's children had any ability to think beaten out of them years ago. Frankly, I think they should have the children taken away from them if they allow them to interact with Grandpa and Grandma or are raising them in a similar manner.


----------



## User101

I read the whole book, and not only did it make me want to puke, it made me totally question my own parenting skills. After all, I wanted Godly obedient children.

One of my personal pet peeves is when there is a crap book like this or the Ezzo books and people say, "well, yes, he does go a little over the top, but you have to adapt it to your family/do what works for you/pick and choose. There's some really good stuff in there too." I don't care if page 56, paragraph B, sentence no. 6 was written by God Himself, if the rest of the book is telling you to hit your baby with a stick, it's not a good book.


----------



## DaryLLL

Some of the rationalizations here ("he has some good to say, some nuggets of wisdom") reminds me of this Dobson thread:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=dobson

For me, "take what you want and leave the rest" is a good disclaimer for LLL, not a good disclaimer for a book that centers upon whipping babies and toddlers!


----------



## Celtain

That is horrible. I hope every parent that uses those techniques is put in jail. Beat a 4 month old, what friggin garbage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Victorian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleeping queen*
I'd be interested to know how the Pearl's children feel about their upbringing. I think many people parent as a reaction to how they were parented.

SQ - how do you think that child abuse is handed down from generation to generation? Grown children parent how they were parented unless their is an intervention either by outside sources or by a tapped well of self esteem within the child. My husband was "trained" as a child and has made the choice to not parent in that way. His brother has not.

If a child was being horribley abused in a home and was removed to fostercare, would you support the return of the child if the child wanted to go back? Most children do.

Just because the Pearls do lip service to family friendly methods of childrearing does not mean that abusing them with an object made for the purpose of abuse does not harm them for a lifetime. Even abusing a baby that will have no "memory" of it does not justify it. Baby's do remember emotionally, and play it out via aggressive behavior later. And hiding behind a screwed up misinterpretation of the bible does not justify anything either.

I would not go dump diving for a pearl, and I won't dive into a pile of childabuse to find a "pearl" of wisdom.

Victorian


----------



## Peppermint

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I don't care if page 56, paragraph B, sentence no. 6 was written by God Himself, if the rest of the book is telling you to hit your baby with a stick, it's not a good book.


----------



## sleeping queen

I nosed around their site a bit. I see that they have 4 russian orphans staying with them for the summer. I would think they would have to have a foster license for that wouldn't they?

We went through the whole licenseing procedure in our state so I would have thought they would've had a background check.?


----------



## Greaseball

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleeping queen*
I nosed around their site a bit. I see that they have 4 russian orphans staying with them for the summer. I would think they would have to have a foster license for that wouldn't they?

We went through the whole licenseing procedure in our state so I would have thought they would've had a background check.?

I don't think these people care about what is legal. I don't know what the law is in their state, but in some states it's illegal to hit babies, and to hit with objects.

Background checks only uncover convictions, and in some cases arrests. Just because you have not been arrested doesn't mean you didn't do it. And there are licensed foster parents - and adoptive parents - who abuse children as well. I know a few who have even been to jail for it.


----------



## Victorian

well I have done through the background check to and let me put this to the test........................... ok, I just went and beat my dd with a switch without leaving a mark.

I'll let you know if the police showup and revoke my good standing with the foster system.

Victorian


----------



## BFandHS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennifer Z*
I am sure Pearl's children had any ability to think beaten out of them years ago. Frankly, I think they should have the children taken away from them if they allow them to interact with Grandpa and Grandma or are raising them in a similar manner.

I agree. And I have heard that in their magazine they talk about caring for their grandchildren.








I have a link to an article by one daughter, who seems very content by her childhood. I have been trying to understand this, it is very complicated.
http://www.homeschoolbuilding.org/Item.php3?id=2288
I have heard that all 5 children are like this. The damage done to them is very deep and hidden. Very scary to me.


----------



## grnbn76

I, too, hate the "well, it has some good things" people.
Broken watches are right twice a day, but I wouldn't wear one all the time just waiting for it to work.

People like this don't have the right to have children.


----------



## Celtain

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
SQ - how do you think that child abuse is handed down from generation to generation? Grown children parent how they were parented unless their is an intervention either by outside sources or by a tapped well of self esteem within the child. My husband was "trained" as a child and has made the choice to not parent in that way. His brother has not.


I was in this situation. My mom used to beat the heck out of us in rages with belts and wooden spoons. I can sometimes find myself getting so angry with a situation that I can start to feel that rage. I look my child in the face (which ever one has helped me get to that point) and say in the calmest voice I can muster, "you need to go to your room and shut the door, I need some alone time right now. When I am ready to talk about this like a sane parent you will be the first to know."

I have avoided beating my children for 13 years by using this method. My fuse has gotten a lot longer as I have gotten older AND I can recognise potential triggers much better, so they get sent to their rooms a lot less now than when my oldest was 7 or 8.

But, it can be done. Just because you were abuse doesn't mean you have to be an abuser.


----------



## Greaseball

That's what I do too - I consider it the only time that CIO is acceptable. When otherwise, you might hurt the child.


----------



## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BFandHS*
I agree. And I have heard that in their magazine they talk about caring for their grandchildren.








I have a link to an article by one daughter, who seems very content by her childhood. I have been trying to understand this, it is very complicated.
http://www.homeschoolbuilding.org/Item.php3?id=2288
I have heard that all 5 children are like this. The damage done to them is very deep and hidden. Very scary to me.

Holy Crap guys, I went to that website and the addy on there freaked me out... these people live in my town and I had no clue!!!!





















:


----------



## HelloKitty

I just got informed about these sickos from a friend of mine the other day (embens - Hi hon!) and had the displeasure of reading some of this abuse guide online. It is so disgusting!!! What is even more disgusting is that some people are actually reading this stuff and listening to it and then following the advice.

I put a negative review on Amazon and will also send them a letter. These people need to be stopped.


----------



## Celtain

:























I was talking to a friend today via instant messanger. She is in the middle of reading this book and agrees with it. I have never been so horrified to call her a friend before in my life. I can't imagine someone actually beating their children and justifying it as loving disipline. But to actually know someone that thinks like that uke I'm seriously thinking of severing this friendship.

Also, as a side note, I e-mailed the Florida (we both live here) statute for child abuse. I hope she takes it to heart. For her kids sake.


----------



## cappuccinosmom

Could someone point me to the "karate chop" passage.

I have looked and looked, but could not find it.

If they actually do promote it, then I'll get off my little fence here.


----------



## BFandHS

cappuccinosmom wrote:

Quote:

Could someone point me to the "karate chop" passage.
I believe the passage you are refering to is in CHAPTER 9:Training Examples 1st section, 3rd paragraph.

They don't acutally promote karate chops though. The infamous quote is: " This time, her bottom came off the couch as she drew back to return the blow; and I heard a little karate like wheeze come from somewhere deep inside." To put the quote in context, he is talking about his wife and a 2 yr old boy here.

You can read it at http://city.hokkai.or.jp/~repent/Eng...s/TrainUp.html Just use control F to search for "Training Examples", or scroll down about half way.


----------



## cappuccinosmom

Maybe this is a stupid thought, but it read to me like the "wheeze" came from his wife. I mean, how does a plastic toy striking an arm produce a karate wheeze from a child?? From reading all the reviews and mentions of it here, it was sounding like she was wailing away on his backside and causing him to have trouble breathing.









Anyway, I find the Pearl's awfully hard to read. Thier daughter is a much better writer.


----------



## grnbn76

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BFandHS*
cappuccinosmom wrote:
To put the quote in context, he is talking about his wife and a 2 yr old boy here.

.

To put it even more into context, he is talking about his wife using a plastic toy wrench to hit a 2yo boy she is not the mother of "with all the force she could possibly muster without standing for a wind up". The mother of the boy just watched, "bewildered".
Pearl says at the end of the passage "My wife never even spoke to him, hardly looked at him, and gave him a friendly smile when she did."

Whatever your personal beliefs about hell, these people need to rot there.


----------



## BFandHS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
Maybe this is a stupid thought, but it read to me like the "wheeze" came from his wife. I mean, how does a plastic toy striking an arm produce a karate wheeze from a child??

You know, you could be right. I never thought of that before. It *does* make more sense.

Quote:

From reading all the reviews and mentions of it here, it was sounding like she was wailing away on his backside and causing him to have trouble breathing.








Yeah, it's always a good idea to go read the original. And what they actually write is shocking enough. No wonder you find the book hard to read, it is shocking and horrifying.

For what it's worth, they don't believe in wailing away on backsides. They believe in forcefull, slow, blows with a flexible rod which will not leave bruises or marks. They claim that hitting the backside with the hand can misalign the spine. They also believe in being calm and smiling while they chastize. Their teaching is so horrible and twisted, I can't even begin to do it justice.







:


----------



## attachmentfeminist

Quote:

he has some good to say, some nuggets of wisdom
I'm sorry, but this just makes me think "and what about all the nice things Hitler did?" uke


----------



## Viola

My interpretation was that the woman made a karate like vocalization (maybe not consciously) as she was getting ready to hit the child with the wrench.

I like the broken watch analogy.


----------



## Victorian

Been thinking that SQ is right. If they have foster children living with them, they must have been through an extensive process that obviously didn't come up with all they need to know about them.

emblmrgrl - could you do a little research and let us know whom we would call in your town to express concern about foster children being in this home?

oh and cappuccinosmom - what exactly are you on the fence about? Whether or not this is abuse? Honestly asking here - no sarcasm intended!

Victorian

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleeping queen*
I nosed around their site a bit. I see that they have 4 russian orphans staying with them for the summer. I would think they would have to have a foster license for that wouldn't they?

We went through the whole licenseing procedure in our state so I would have thought they would've had a background check.?


----------



## DebraBaker

I think you assume too much if you assume these people have *permission* to foster anyone.

They live in rural TN, they are fostering foreign orphans.

I would be very surprised if they actually got permission to foster children.

Debra Baker


----------



## cappuccinosmom

>oh and cappuccinosmom - what exactly are you on the fence about? Whether or not this is abuse? Honestly asking here - no sarcasm intended!

Mostly spanking.

But really, I got up on the fence this time because I had read the Pearl's books, and got irritated at the hyperbole and speculation used as part of the arguments against them. If you disagree with spanking, then there is plenty to disagree with just using facts. I love a good argument. But it only stays a good argument if facts and reasoning are used. So, I guess you could say I got up on the fence out of pure spite or snarkiness.









Someone commented about how the daughter is making a "curriculum" to beat into the children. Having read thier stuff, I know they are devotedly unschooling and despise anything other than child-led learning. Spankings would have absolutely no use if you believe a child is the one to direct his own learning, not the parents. IOW, if a child is having difficulty with some subject or idea, it is not time for a spank. It's time to back off and let them come back to it when they know they are ready.

As well, it's fairly clear that they don't want quiet, mousy, unthinking children. They say over and over in the book that the goal is a happy family, with *fewer* spankings, and the hearts of parents and children connected. Now, you may find thier methods despicable, but I think their intentions have been misrepresented.

I would find it far more edifying if quotes in context were posted, and then reasoned arguments presented opposing them, rather than just paraphrases in the midst of a highly emotional reaction to them.

For instance, using the "karate wheeze" anecdote, it might be more useful to set up an argument about why using a toy wrench is not a good way to teach a child not to hit his mother with a toy wrench, rather than saying "Debi Pearl beat a toddler with a wrench until he emitted a karate-like wheeze" (one of the reviews on Amazon!), which is not so, but certainly will draw the ire of many people, even those who arent' opposed spanking as a form of discipline.

Does that make sense?

I suppose I'll get flamed for this. But that's OK. I have a specially designed protective suit, just for my forays in MDC Activism!


----------



## cappuccinosmom

>I would be very surprised if they actually got permission to foster children.

How could they not have permission, since the orphans only come for the summer on temporary visas, and have to return to Russia?

They used to foster American children, but maybe that was before they started writing??


----------



## HelloKitty

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
As well, it's fairly clear that they don't want quiet, mousy, unthinking children. They say over and over in the book that the goal is a happy family, with *fewer* spankings, and the hearts of parents and children connected. Now, you may find thier methods despicable, but I think their intentions have been misrepresented


I'm having a really hard time with this argument - I've recently heard it from a friend of a friend as well. That the goal is "fewer" spankings. No spanking IS fewer spankings from the beginning. Why does someone feel they need to spank repeatedly to curb future spankings??? This does not make rational sense to me. I also believe it simply does not work. As a child gets older there would naturally be fewer spankings - s/he learns to be afraid and learns to hide things from their parents. I know, I was one of those "trained" children. Good luck to those that follow this advice as they become the parent of a teenager that is a lot harder to spank!

I also have a really hard time with the first line of the above paragraph. Having read a great deal of the online version of their book they certainly seem to me to want quiet, mousy, unthinking children. Again and again they talk about breaking their will. They describe some "good children" as playing by themselves for hours without disturbing the adults or an 18 month old (forgive me if I'm off on the age - somewhere around there) sitting in church for an hour not trying to get up or move around. Or an active toddler needing to be hit repeatedly so he doesn't try to get down from his Dad's lap or go to his mother.

Just because they say in the book that they want happy children and a connected family honestly doesn't mean squat to me. It's like an active drug addict saying he wants to be truthful and honest. Actions speak louder then words. The stories these people share in this book are sick and twisted, that says a lot more to me about them, a lot more then them spouting off about wanting a close family.

**Disclaimer - not trying to flame you, just trying to have the rational discussion you said you wanted







**


----------



## sleeping queen

Quote:

Good luck to those that follow this advice as they become the parent of a teenager that is a lot harder to spank!
Usually, by the time a parent has a teenager that has been taught to respect their parents their isn't a need to spank plus I don't think the Pearls advocate spanking teenagers. If you have a 4 year old that will look you in the face and tell you no what makes you think that child will all the sudden become a respectfully , nice teenager.

Cappucino'smom. ITA


----------



## HelloKitty

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleeping queen*
Usually, by the time a parent has a teenager that has been taught to respect their parents their isn't a need to spank plus I don't think the Pearls advocate spanking teenagers. If you have a 4 year old that will look you in the face and tell you no what makes you think that child will all the sudden become a respectfully , nice teenager.

Cappucino'smom. ITA

I have a very nice teenager that I never spanked that at the age of four told me no quite often! It's pretty normal for a four year old to tell his parents no.

My parents used spanking to supposedly teach me "respect" all it did was cause me to fear them. I started running away at the age of 13. At 32 years old I still fear them in many ways. Hitting a child doesn't teach respect, it teaches obediance, two totally different things.


----------



## Victorian

I have a 17 year old nephew. He is feisty! Sassy! Irritating! Would I have it any other way? Nope. I think that he will be a totally awsome adult. Why is our society obsessed with teens that are quiet, good and respectful? He is also funny, good with kids, intellegent and able to carry on a good arguement. With his pierced tonuge and jet black hair and punk clothes, He is a nightmare. God, I love that boy. I even gave him my old car for his birthday - he sold it. (LOL) I think that the way teens act is a natural process to distance them from their mommies. Just like when they start to stink.

I do agree that it does no good to make up stuff about them. Because they are bad enough on their own. I would rather hear about someone swating a child on the butt for naughtness than someone switching them on the bare legs to drive the evil out of them. I think that you are wrong about them wanting to break their spirits. Have you spend some time on his website? There is very disturbing things on there. I will post quotes later as I am on the way out.

To quote my husbands grandmother "when Jesus spanks, he spanks hard"

DebraBaker - good point. I think that I will email Andrew Vachss and see if his organization is aware of the Pearls.

Victorian


----------



## Greaseball

Quote:

If you have a 4 year old that will look you in the face and tell you no what makes you think that child will all the sudden become a respectfully , nice teenager.
So it's never acceptable for a child to say no to a parent?

Local pedophiles love children who were parented this way.

I want my children to say no whenever they are unhappy with something.


----------



## DaryLLL

capachinosmom, I am aghast.

This fully grown woman smilingly hit a 2 yr old child --with all her might--her rump coming off the couch to get as much force behind it as possible, grunting with the effort.

And she did it over and over and over and over again.

Would you be rational if another women did that to your child?

It is hard to be rational as I vomit. Why should this kind of violence need a rational rebuttal? It just causes visceral disgust. Horror. Nausea. Ack Ack Ack. Spew.

Personally, I think this story is made up for fetish purposes. I just can not imagine any 2 yr old continuing to strike back with his little toy as a full grown woman struck him with all the force she could muster.

I have read Marquis de Sade and recognize a masturbatory fantasy for sadists when I see one. As well, I figure they could illegally get ahold of young victims from Russia for their perverse sexual pleasure. Perhaps through "missionaries." As M de Sade recced, only have children, if you must, for the pleasure they give you to torture and eventually kill them.

As the author proudly and disgustingly states, he and his wife are nothing but big bullies. Well, I would call them criminals of the worst kind.

Just now I raised my hand and brought it down through the air with all the force I could. Try it. WHAM!!! Just imagine doing that to a little 25 lb child! (or perhaps you do not need to imagine it, as it is a common occurance in your household?)I think anyone who does this or thinks it deserves a rational rebuttal has problems.


----------



## DaryLLL

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yeah yeah yeah*
I know that they are into Dog beating... I once read something he wrote about a "defiant" dog that wanted to sleep in the bathroom.









I think that particular anecdote was written by James Dobson, another violent criminal.


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## HelloKitty

I need to get off this thread because I am getting so upset but I just wanted to say one more thing - I personally am deeply saddened that on an AP board I am having to argue against someone hitting their child.


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## pumpkinhead

Quote:

you may find thier methods despicable, but I think their intentions have been misrepresented
I honestly could care less about what their intentions are!!! I've tripped over many a toy and stubbed my toe when I didn't *intend* to! I've run into ds and made him cry (by accident) when I didn't *intend* to. Why do the intentions matter? They don't change the end result which is inflicting pain on a child. THIS IS ABUSE! Spankings are ineffective! If they worked, you'd only ever have to spank a child once. It's like raising your voice! If you yell, the next time you will have to yell ouder to achieve the same results, and louder the next time and louder the next.

How much respect would you have for your boss or your husband if this was their means of disciplinary action? Not much! Respect is earned and this can't be achieved but humilating and inflicting pain on another. It just teaches you to hide things better, to lie! Is that what you want when your dd is at a party and her date is drunk? Would you rather her trust in your love and know there will be understanding on your part when she calls you for a ride home or be afraid of retribution and let her drunken date drive her? If I ever have a daughter, I HOPE she looks me in face and says no! I hope that when her boyfriend is pressuring her to have sex she'll look him in the face and ROAR NO!!!!!

What are we teaching our children by hitting them? NOTHING! Nothing except that if you're bigger than somebody, you can do whatever you want to them.


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## BFandHS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
I would find it far more edifying if quotes in context were posted, and then reasoned arguments presented opposing them, rather than just paraphrases in the midst of a highly emotional reaction to them.

The problem with quotes is that we have to be so careful about violating copywrite. That is why I give very small quotes. I can't remember how big a quote I'm allowed to give without violating copywrite laws.

Also, it's very hard to *not* be highly emotional about people hitting small children and babies on the bare legs with flexible nylon rods. As far as I'm concerned, what is in that book cannot be overstated or exagerated to make it any worse that it really is. It is heinous, plain and simple. And their insistance that not obeying immediately and with a happy attitude is the same as disobedience is chilling. Imagine if your dh required you to do *everything* he said without *any* delay, arguement or body signs of not being happy? The thought makes me want to curl up in a fetal position and cry.


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## DebraBaker

Quote, "Just now I raised my hand and brought it down through the air with all the force I could. Try it. WHAM!!! Just imagine doing that to a little 25 lb child! (or perhaps you do not need to imagine it, as it is a common occurance in your household?)I think anyone who does this or thinks it deserves a rational rebuttal has problems"

If I bring my hand with full force I can break boards (two specifically)

I cannot imagine hitting anyone with full force unless they're trying to hurt me (and I don't mean a 2yo baby for goodness' sake) Of course I don't pull the hair of a nursing baby when she bit me, either.

And, no, I doubt they have a cirtificate to foster children.

And I understand there's still a debate about spanking but I am completely baffled that any debate exists about the virtues of the pearls' teaching.

I cannot imagine using a karate anything against a child. (it's a kei, not a wheeze and you focus your energy to one burst of ki, not a wheeze at all)

And the respect thing is a bunch of crap, my dh used that arguement saying he respected his father because he beat him. I reminded him he *hated* his father but was afraid of him. He showed respect out of fear which is no respect at all but something entirely different. (and did he want a relationship with his children similar to his dad's? to which he responded with a hearty, "NO") Respect is something you *earn* and people who deserve respect do not usually walk around demanding it (sort of like if you must ask to be on the A-list you won't be on the A-list.)

....But these people don't seem to learn and fool themselves into thinking they're something special because they can bully a toddler.

Debra Baker


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## Victorian

I just wanted to clarify that I DO NOT support spanking. I was just saying that I think that swatting them on the bare legs with a switch with the intent to de-evilify them is damaging on so many levels that it just doesn't even compare to swatting on the butt.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
I would rather hear about someone swating a child on the butt for naughtness than someone switching them on the bare legs to drive the evil out of them.


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## cappuccinosmom

I can't ask for factual arguments without getting accused of beating my child with a toy wrench?







That is a personal attack, and since you know absolutely nothing about me or my household, I think it's totally uncalled for. If you knew us at all, I can guarantee you would find that ds and I interact in a very loving and comfortable manner with each other.

I am on the fence about spanking because my parents spanked me, and I did not *ever* fear them. I did not have any doubt that they loved me. I did not have a dark and horrifying childhood at all, even though spanking was included. I just totally do not get the concept of all spanking, no matter what situation, circumstance, or attitude of the parents is wrong. But that is really not what this thread is about, so could we just leave it?? There's very little I can say about it, because anything other than total devotion to GD and hatred of spanking is unacceptable here, as I well know.

The whole sexual pervert thing is *exactly* what I was talking about. Utter mind-in-the-gutter speculation. What is so hard with sticking with what is actually known, since they are very open about thier ideas on discipline? As I said before, there's plenty to disagree with and "activate" about without any speculation whatsoever.


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## mommymarliah

o.k. this is just absolutely disgusting, seriously feel sick to my stomach reading this!

How is it EVER right to hit a baby? it's NOT. Anyone who hits a baby ought to spend the rest of their God given days in prison!

That being said I am not totally against spanking I think there are certian times that warrant them (for example my 5 year old ran into the middle of the street while walking with all of us, and he got a good tap on the butt for that one). In our house spankings are reserved for only the worst offenses, like running in the road....and in all reality after doing that I think the time out he had in his room worked better. I was spanked as a child and am not traumatized by it but I was again only spanked for the worst offenses......I think this book is just disgusting, I wish someone would beat the author til he shut his big fat head!







"breaking a child" thats just wrong....dammit I can't even believe this can happen!


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## pumpkinhead

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
I just wanted to clarify that I DO NOT support spanking. I was just saying that I think that swatting them on the bare legs with a switch with the intent to de-evilify them is damaging on so many levels that it just doesn't even compare to swatting on the butt.


How does a 2 year old child know the difference? All they know is that they're being hurt.

cappuccinosmom, with respect,I don't think anyone has accused you of hitting your child with a toy wrench. I don't think ANYONE is pointing accusatory fingers at you at all! We disagree with your views on spanking and are providing you with reasons why. This is NOT a personal attack.


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## Krystal323

So you mean the Pearls say they're unschoolers??

HOW can you say to a child that you trust them to make their own educational choices, but then turn around and say if you don't do exactly what I tell you to, the way I tell you to, immediately, then I'll beat the living daylights out of you?!?

That is INSANE. Go check out www.sandradodd.com and click on her spanking link to get a REAL unschoolers' perspective on something so disgusting as spanking. No fence here.

The human will is a beautiful thing to be respected, not an evil thing to be broken. The same two-yr-old who tells you NO might be telling her drug-abusing teenage friends NO in that same seemingly disobedient way. IF you properly respect and cultivate her will.

People are not for hitting, and children are people too. The whole thing with spanking IMHO can be distilled to a problem with "age-ism". Just b/c a human being is smaller/younger than you doesn't mean they should be slapped around in the name of obedience. If you hit your dog the animal rescue people could put you in jail. If a man raised a hand to his wife in public he would be arrested. Children are the only societal group wth no real legal protection against abuse.

Obedience out of fear is what you get with spanking. You are seting yourself up as the child's conscience. So they'll obey while you're looking but invariably go hog wild when you're not. So you'll have to hit harder, or more often, or....this is escalating abuse, and it obviously doesn't teach what the parents think it does. A parent who hits is NOT helping their child develop internal control, they're teaching the child not to get caught, and they're also teaching the child that their feelings/desires/problems don't count.

Is this what we want for our children?? Don't spank!!!!!!!!

www.nospank.net

www.naturalchild.org

www.sandradodd.com

www.neverhitachild.org


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## Kinipela79

Thanks for all the links, Krystal. I have spanked my oldest son about 5 times in his life and decided a little over a year ago that I would never spank him again. Spanking isn't a "must have" to have well behaved, pleasant, respectful children. Giving a good example of how you would like your child to behave is much more effective (although not a "quick fix") than hitting. Spank, swat, tap, pop...it's all hitting no matter what you call it. And I had a hard time admitting that to myself.

There is nothing redeeming about the Pearl's. Nothing. They are disgusting people.


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## lovemybaby

The story about the "karate chop" has this ending (p 56) "he gave a little tap (to Debi Pearl) that was returned with a swift, forceful blow (from Debi)." If you read the whole story, all the little boy wanted was some attention. He was hitting his mom & then Debi because they were ignoring him. My daughter has hit me to get my attention, it's not a big deal because it doesn't hurt (she's too little) and there's no chance of injury. I tell her not to do it and she's learning. She apologizes and hugs me. What the Pearls recommend is hitting kids who want attention, a normal need. They should just give them some attention!!

I agree with the others who think pro-spanking talk is inappropriate here. I made a decision when I was a teenager to never hit a child and I never have. It's not necessary, it causes emotional harm, it increases aggression, it can injure, and sometimes it kills. And of course, it's never good for a parent/child relationship. I really liked an editorial I read a few years back in Mothering by *Peggy O'Mara* about why she stopped spanking her kids.

Dr. Benjamin Spock had this to say about hitting kids: "Physical punishment teaches children that the larger, stronger person has the power to get his way, whether or not he is in the right, and they may resent this in the parent--for life."

Miss Manners says this: "Whamming someone smaller than oneself in order to teach that person civilized behavior is not within Miss Manners' concept of propriety, much less logic."

The American Medical Association recommends against spanking, and the US Surgeon General has said "The cultural acceptance of violence should be decreased by discouraging corporal punishment at home."

Don't hit your kids. It's not a good thing. Ever. I can't imagine ever hitting my little girl - it's just inconceivable to me.


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## Victorian

If you care to read my posts again you would see that I am saying to swat your child, I am not advocating spanking. My point was that this goes beyong swatting, it is methodlogic child abuse. Not much to be fence sitting about IMO. And yes, I think that a two year old can tell the difference between a one-time mommy lost her temper and swatted me and then admitted a mistake and apologized verses getting switched all the time until the big people decide that I am "trained" well enough to not bother them anymore.

This is activism, and the question is how can we stop this child abuse. Spanking (as much as we all dislike it) is not against the law. Child abuse is. Therefore the question that I see is how can we get this behavior labeled as child abuse, illegal, and therefore put a stop to it?

Please stop making it look like I am advocating spanking. If you knew me IRL, you would know how upsetting that is to me, I try really hard to be a good, peaceful mother.

Victorian


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## SummerLover

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kinipela79*
Spank, swat, tap, pop...it's all hitting no matter what you call it. And I had a hard time admitting that to myself.

Thank you.
And kudos to you for your courage and wisdom.


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## DaryLLL

I wasn't accusing anyone of child abuse. I was wondering if anyone could imagine striking a child as hard as the woman monster is written to do. And for as long. And with either eyes averted (pretending to carry on a conversation as she did), a passionless gaze, or sickening smile. I just find the barbarity of that scene surreal and so like de Sade's fantasies (where we get the word sadism).


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## BFandHS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Krystal323*
That is INSANE. Go check out www.sandradodd.com and click on her spanking link to get a REAL unschoolers' perspective on something so disgusting as spanking.

I had a hard time finding that page, so I thought I'd share the exact link.http://sandradodd.com/spanking
Also, please check out my own Pearl-Info site which is in my sig.


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## famousmockngbrd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
Please stop making it look like I am advocating spanking. If you knew me IRL, you would know how upsetting that is to me, I try really hard to be a good, peaceful mother.

Victorian









I get what you are saying, V. The thing is that nobody wants to start down the road of saying "Hitting your child this way isn't as bad as hitting your child that way" because it seems to imply an acceptance of hitting children, as long as it's done "right". Look how many times you have had to say that you don't advocate spanking.

Hitting children is wrong. I don't care if one way is slightly less bad than another. I am surprised to see spanking being defended, and I am utterly shocked that anyone here would defend the Pearls for one second.


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## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Krystal323*
People are not for hitting, and children are people too. The whole thing with spanking IMHO can be distilled to a problem with "age-ism". Just b/c a human being is smaller/younger than you doesn't mean they should be slapped around in the name of obedience. If you hit your dog the animal rescue people could put you in jail. If a man raised a hand to his wife in public he would be arrested. Children are the only societal group wth no real legal protection against abuse.









<---although, should be frowning









The Pearl's are sick, sick people. Did I read the whole book? Heck no! Just a couple paragraphs make me want to uke

I just don't get that argument. I mean, if you read a book instructing you to beat your spouse, or kill people of other races, would you continue reading just in case they had something helpful to say about marriage or race relations?

They hit children. I've read passages where they admit to enjoying it. They are horrid people. I can not believe that their book is being defended here on MDC


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## Krystal323

Another link:

http://www.stophitting.com/religion/10reasons.php

and another :

www.aolff.com

...for the Christians and Catholics who may be reading this









The first is a rather long but superb article entitled "10 reasons I can't spank: a Catholic counselor's examination of corporal punishment". VERY eye-opening, that's what initially made me realize just how wrong it is to hit children.

The second is a general Christian site advocating "grace-based discipline", which is of course against physical punishment.

Can you really imagine the Blessed Mother hauling off to switch the Boy Jesus?? Inconcievable to me.


----------



## Viola

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleeping queen*
If you have a 4 year old that will look you in the face and tell you no what makes you think that child will all the sudden become a respectfully , nice teenager.

From family experience, I think if you have a 4 year old child who will look you in the face and tell you no and you spank him for it, you end up with a really pissed off teenager who has a lot of built up resentment. Or you have a nice teenager, but one that won't say no to anybody or anything. Just my observations--you may have witnessed something different.


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## IdentityCrisisMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleeping queen*
Usually, by the time a parent has a teenager that has been taught to respect their parents ...

Or, you could parent so your child has respect for you since the day they're born...just a thought...

I have the utmost respect for my father (and mother) because he deserves respect - lives a wonderful life - joyful, thoughtful, compassionate...

(I was never hit)

Respect is earned. It is impossible to beat respect into someone. Period.


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## littleteapot

I've been lurking on this thread a while, and am also rather surprised that there is a debate on spanking on this kind of forum.

I just wanted to add...
Being 'fine' is an opinion: yours and yours alone. No one can prove or disprove it, which is why it holds no water.

For example, I could say I was abused and I am just fine.
This is completely untrue, I have PTSD amoung other problems that follow me through my life that I am still working through.

For a more subtle example, I could say that my brother was fed solids at 4 weeks old and he is just fine.
He is a happy, healthy adult who makes a good living and is well-adjusted. But how do I know this is true? My mother, having since learned about the dangers of early solids, has wondered if his life-long obesity was caused by the advice she took from her doctors. Some people think this still qualifies as 'just fine'.

It's like all those people who say they were formula fed and they are 'just fine'.
The question is not 'are you fine', the question to ask is are you 'fine' _because_ of it, or _despite_ it?

If you were hit, spanked, tapped, whatever you wish to call it - are you 'just fine'? Was it the spanking that beat that health, happiness and vitality into you - or were you the lucky one that managed to thrive despite it?

Just my $.02


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## simonee

Since this thread has turned into a debate about the merits of spanking, maybe it should be moved to Gentle Discipline?

A number of posts would not fit the guidelines there, because they advocate spanking. Of course, one would expect those posts to be edited or deleted, so as to no longer contradict the Mothering statement of purpose. Maybe the spanking advocates would like to continue their discussion on a different board?


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## IdentityCrisisMama

Good point, Simonee! Welcome back, btw. I hope we get some pics up from the party soon...Send my love to Madrone!


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## User101

Just another non-spanking resource- hands-down, the best book I ever read on gentle discipline is "Parenting with Grace: The Catholic Parents Guide to Raising (Practically) Perfect Kids" by Gregory Popcak. Just wanted to add to Krystal323's resources!


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## lovemybaby

Here's another good book for gentle Christian parenting "How Would Jesus Raise a Child?" by Dr. Whitehurst. And here's another website that is anti-spanking http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org


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## Greaseball

Quote:

Don't hit your kids. It's not a good thing. Ever.
Also, don't tap, swat, pop, or whatever you want to call it. It's still hitting, and it's still something that can only legally be done to children. Would we put up with a "tap" from an impatient stranger in the grocery line? How about a "swat" from a dh who was tired of being told "no", or a "pop" from an employer who caught us checking MDC at work?

If we would not put up with these things, perhaps children should not be expected to either.


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## pumpkinhead

what does 'swatting' or 'tapping' a child teach them? It's an earnest and honest question. I'd really like to know.


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## Krystal323

Yes, thank you for expounding, that's my hands-down fave parenting book too--Parenting With Grace!!

We'd get along, I can tell already


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## Victorian

here is a link to the resources for corporal punishment for Andrew Vachss

http://www.vachss.com/help_text/corp...unishment.html

Victorian


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## weesej

My goodness ladies, I don't think anyone on her is being pro-spanking. They are just stating that you are arguing against the Pearl's with information you have made up! There is plenty to say about them without imagining any extra.

Another point I have is there are MANY components of attachment parenting with gentle discipline being one of them. I know there are women who come here for info on homebirth, cloth diapering, homeschooling, etc even if they don't use gentle discipline because MDC is one of the best resources around. No one goes to the GD forum and says you should spank and no one is saying that here. It is simply being pointed out that the arguments against the Pearls is lacking in honesty, they are evil enough, we don't need to lie!


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## DaryLLL

Nobody is lying.

The debate was who grunted, the monster or the baby.

I still find the story overly dramatic. As if it has been exaggerated for effect. Some kind of effect.


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## DebraBaker

It is grim regardless of which party grunted.

If it was the baby who had to "wheeze" after being struck by the monster, how horrid.

If a fully grown monster exerted herself with a karate ki how horrid.

Either way the Pearls damn themselves with their own words.

Debra Baker


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## cappuccinosmom

Thank you Jen. At least one person understood.

Thinking about this thread, this is exactly why my mom left being an activist in the pro-life movement,back in the early 80's. She is still strongly pro-life, but she saw that the movement was twisting statistics, exaggerating some things, and doing it's level best to horrify people into becoming anti-abortion. She felt that the case against abortion could be made with facts and reason, and was disappointed that the people taking the supposed "high ground" were resorting to such tactics.

Seeing the same kind of thing going on here disturbed me.


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## suebearsmom

some thoughts I wanted to share on discipline & submission: Tho I consider myself a believer in Jesus or a christian,reading parts(I couldnt read the whole thing) of that book made me want to puke on my feet. Biblically speaking, the word discipline comes from the word disciple which means to teach.In the christian belief system after Jesus died,on the day of Pentecost He sent His Holy Spirit to empower anyone that asks for Him & His spirit to be in their hearts/lives,not to give the kind of power that most people think of when they hear the word.The Bible is very clear about what the "Fruits" of the Spirit are - love,joy,peace,patience,meekness,temperance,goodne ss,gentleness,faith.Scripture also made it very clear how Jesus reacted to children.He rebuked the adults who were trying to stop them from drawing near to Him and gathered them lovingly in His arms.In the Bible it also speaks of a type of nurturing that a nursing mother exhibits towards her little ones as it talks about how "tenderly" a nursing mother cares for her children.The Bible also says that we are not to provoke our children to anger and the word train actually is a more complex thing meaning to figure out a childs true bent (their gifts,sensitivities & personalities) and deal with a child(individually) from that place.One of the original Learning Styles founders - Cynthis Tobias - is a believer and goes into interesting detail about biblical meanings in her book:The Way They Learn. The whole submission thing,like so many other things, has been waaay misued.Jesus came to set the oppressed free and in Old Testament times there wasnt anyone that was oppressed as much as women in general and there has never been an activist like Jesus was.Women were considered property and useful for bearing sons,by most. The women had their own section of the temple where they were supposed to hang out and wait for the men.They couldnt go into the real place of prayer.The same Jesus who hung out with sinners & prostitutes and gave them His healing love,went and sat in the womens area of the temple.This was not done! Men would never demean themselves by going there.I believe the submission issues so many talk about were set up as the ultimate protection for women in that time.Women who did not have husbands or family had nothing.They had no value and were virtually homeless.I think that God intended the husband/wife unit to be an equalising thing.That men brought their strengths and gifts and input into the family and women brought theirs and they balanced each other out in a beautiful way.You also have to know that husbands were told to love their wives as Christ loved the church - meaning their could be no greater level of love and respect and also they are to love their wives like their own body.In other words,treat her with the same level of respect that you would treat yourself with.The obvious here is that when someone hasnt really learned that they have great value and they were not treated with respect as children,they tend to become controlling,(sometimes) bullies.And around & around it goes.I believe a true Godly marriage is one of equals -yet each bringing different things of value to the relationship.If husbands are in this correct posture with their wives then they are not going to be tyrants who do what they want to and expect the wives to behave as doormats.It is clear,in the New Testament,that after the Holy Spirit came and did His work in those who allowed Him or asked Him too,that God was working mightily through women - some single. To me submission means that I ultimately look to God as my provider and helper.He made me an intelligent woman.He made me more intuitive and sensitive in some areas than my husband.In a perfect world - it takes both of our inputs and sometimes he is going to see things more clearly in an area while other times I will.But the freeing thing for me is that when my husband is acting like the back end of the horse and I know he is not right about something,it is not my responsibility to change him or get him to come around - I no longer have to try to defend myself,nag at him,yell at him(tho I do sometimes still slip and do all these things and then later regret it) and make sure I get my way.Ive learned to go the way of peace and I tell him what I am seeing about a situation and that Im not feeling good/right about his opinion and I leave it.I then prayferfully turn to God and say OK,pleeease Open his eyes and heart to see the truth here and give him the grace to accept it if he is wrong about this.And oh yeah - I have to also ask God to show me if I am wrong! Once in a great while that happens too.hee-hee.God has never failed me when I operate under this principal. Whether it be my marriage relationship or relationships with others. Just wanted to share some of the ways I have come to look at these issues.peace and love and gentleness to all,Catherine


----------



## emblmrgrl

It's taken me a few days to get back to this thread... I've tried to read a large portion of the online copy of this book. I have many thoughts but to give you an overview of them, it's both shocking that someone would still use those practices in today's world and not so shocking because that's how my parents themselves were disciplined.

Yes, we're in a rural part of TN but we aren't that far out... only about an hour outside of Nashville. A recurring theme to me was the continuous references the Pearls made to the Amish community and their practices. I have a great respect for the Amish here and their values of home & family. And something sticks out to me about how Mr. Pearl uses them for examples. We all know that methods of discipline are often exactly what was used on us as children, so is it not possible that the lessons he said he took from what the Amish families were doing were a result of not knowing better? I mean it's not like the Amish folk around here are sitting around reading studies on the effects of hitting their kids, they would only be doing what they know as shown to them by their parents. When you know better, you do better...

Anyway, I'm just now able to start looking for info. in the community on the Pearl family but I do have the number to our local Department of Human Services in the event that anyone wants to inquire about the foster children supposedly in their care. Victorian, I'll PM that to you...


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## Pookietooth

It sounds like a child abuse manual written by a couple of very twisted sadists. And true S/M practitioners are careful about using consent, and children cannot give consent. Poor babies!







The authors are obviously child haters who have a lot of anger in them. Anger they want to direct at children, not just their own either.


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## DebraBaker

Jennifer,

I wonder if anyone local has ever had the courage to actually persue legal sanctions against the Pearls.

The more they smugly brag that they got away with it the more I think someone should step up to the plate.

Debra Baker


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## Greaseball

I think most states have statutes of limitation for child abuse. So unless they are abusing their foster kids, there wouldn't be any legal action one could take.


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## emblmrgrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
Jennifer,

I wonder if anyone local has ever had the courage to actually persue legal sanctions against the Pearls.

The more they smugly brag that they got away with it the more I think someone should step up to the plate.

Debra Baker

Hopefully I'll be able to nose around a little bit tomorrow... I'll report back with anything I can find out. At this point I'm wondering if any of the locals even know about these people. They don't seem to draw any attention to themselves that I can find so far...


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## allgirls

can you imagine Jesus doing any of these things?


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## allgirls

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suebearsmom*
some thoughts I wanted to share on discipline & submission: Tho I consider myself a believer in Jesus or a christian,reading parts(I couldnt read the whole thing) of that book made me want to puke on my feet. Biblically speaking, the word discipline comes from the word disciple which means to teach.In the christian belief system after Jesus died,on the day of Pentecost He sent His Holy Spirit to empower anyone that asks for Him & His spirit to be in their hearts/lives,not to give the kind of power that most people think of when they hear the word.The Bible is very clear about what the "Fruits" of the Spirit are - love,joy,peace,patience,meekness,temperance,goodne ss,gentleness,faith.Scripture also made it very clear how Jesus reacted to children.He rebuked the adults who were trying to stop them from drawing near to Him and gathered them lovingly in His arms.In the Bible it also speaks of a type of nurturing that a nursing mother exhibits towards her little ones as it talks about how "tenderly" a nursing mother cares for her children.The Bible also says that we are not to provoke our children to anger and the word train actually is a more complex thing meaning to figure out a childs true bent (their gifts,sensitivities & personalities) and deal with a child(individually) from that place.One of the original Learning Styles founders - Cynthis Tobias - is a believer and goes into interesting detail about biblical meanings in her book:The Way They Learn. The whole submission thing,like so many other things, has been waaay misued.Jesus came to set the oppressed free and in Old Testament times there wasnt anyone that was oppressed as much as women in general and there has never been an activist like Jesus was.Women were considered property and useful for bearing sons,by most. The women had their own section of the temple where they were supposed to hang out and wait for the men.They couldnt go into the real place of prayer.The same Jesus who hung out with sinners & prostitutes and gave them His healing love,went and sat in the womens area of the temple.This was not done! Men would never demean themselves by going there.I believe the submission issues so many talk about were set up as the ultimate protection for women in that time.Women who did not have husbands or family had nothing.They had no value and were virtually homeless.I think that God intended the husband/wife unit to be an equalising thing.That men brought their strengths and gifts and input into the family and women brought theirs and they balanced each other out in a beautiful way.You also have to know that husbands were told to love their wives as Christ loved the church - meaning their could be no greater level of love and respect and also they are to love their wives like their own body.In other words,treat her with the same level of respect that you would treat yourself with.The obvious here is that when someone hasnt really learned that they have great value and they were not treated with respect as children,they tend to become controlling,(sometimes) bullies.And around & around it goes.I believe a true Godly marriage is one of equals -yet each bringing different things of value to the relationship.If husbands are in this correct posture with their wives then they are not going to be tyrants who do what they want to and expect the wives to behave as doormats.It is clear,in the New Testament,that after the Holy Spirit came and did His work in those who allowed Him or asked Him too,that God was working mightily through women - some single. To me submission means that I ultimately look to God as my provider and helper.He made me an intelligent woman.He made me more intuitive and sensitive in some areas than my husband.In a perfect world - it takes both of our inputs and sometimes he is going to see things more clearly in an area while other times I will.But the freeing thing for me is that when my husband is acting like the back end of the horse and I know he is not right about something,it is not my responsibility to change him or get him to come around - I no longer have to try to defend myself,nag at him,yell at him(tho I do sometimes still slip and do all these things and then later regret it) and make sure I get my way.Ive learned to go the way of peace and I tell him what I am seeing about a situation and that Im not feeling good/right about his opinion and I leave it.I then prayferfully turn to God and say OK,pleeease Open his eyes and heart to see the truth here and give him the grace to accept it if he is wrong about this.And oh yeah - I have to also ask God to show me if I am wrong! Once in a great while that happens too.hee-hee.God has never failed me when I operate under this principal. Whether it be my marriage relationship or relationships with others. Just wanted to share some of the ways I have come to look at these issues.peace and love and gentleness to all,Catherine

Now this is Christian...it brought me to tears...it's rarely I see true Christianity...

If this is what Christians believe...I am in! I just don't see this much...thank you for sharing


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## lovemybaby

I just found out the Pearls are doing a talk called "Joyful training and family relationships" at the Evangelical Free Church of Orange, in Orange, CA September 11 6pm - 8pm. You can email their church office to complain about the Pearls' "training" of babies at [email protected]

And here's an example of a whip the Pearls appear to be strongly connected with: http://stoptherod.net


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## Krystal323

Thanks for the email addy!! I wrote them this:

++++++Hello--I am a fellow Christian and have noticed that you have a parenting talk scheduled for your congregation soon by Michael and Debi Pearl. It's wonderful that your church is supporting the difficult and holy work of parenting by offering talks such as these.

However, the Pearls' methods of "child training" are unChristian at best and have led to proven cases of child abuse and failure-to-thrive syndrome in infants. They recommend whipping infants for "noncompliance" and using a switch on slightly older children for anything other than cheerful immediate obedience.

It's illegal for people to train animals using cruel methods such as these. Children are the only societal group that US law affords no protection from these kinds of abuses. Jesus said "Let the little children come to Me," and the Bible also warns fathers not to "provoke their children to anger". There are wonderful Christian ways of parenting children without using cruel corporal punishments such as those the Pearls advocate.

Please, for the children's sake, cancel the Pearl's talk at your parish.

Instead, you can offer something on grace-based discipline or loving-guidance discipline, both of which are solidly Christian methods of parenting that emphasize God's love and grace in one's relationships with their children. Parenting shouldn't be like training circus animals--we're shepharding God's little lambs, helping them grow up to love the Lord. God doesn't want His children to suffer at the hands of the parents He gave them! Please, reconsider your association with Michael and Debi Pearl.

In Christ,

Krystal C.
Christian homeschooling mother of two+++++++++


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## lovemybaby

Great letter Krystal


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## suebearsmom

Carolyn sez - If this is what Christians believe...I am in! I just don't see this much...thank you for sharing Thanks Carolyn.There are more of us out there! Come on over to www.gentlemothering.com to meet a whole gang of crunchy christian mamas! Hugs,Catherine


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