# Are logical consequences punishment?



## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

I have never considered truly logical consquences punishment. Today at a local crunchy mom meet-upwe had a discussion about this, the example being a child coloring on the wall with crayons. Is it punishment to have them help clean it? I vote no, it's a consequence. But then I don't think logial consequences are punishment, I see unrelated consequences like time-outs and taking away privelages as punishment. What do you think?


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Usually, yes. If it's something the child finds unpleasant that you're insisting he do, in the hopes that he'll be less likely to repeat his "misdeed", it's punishment in my book. Whether you're having him clean crayon off the walls or do 50 pushups or taking away his crayons for a week, it still fits the above criteria.

On the other hand, if you sit down and talk about the crayoned-on wall with the child and he freely decides to clean the crayon off the wall, that would be different - that would be problem-solving.

dar


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

ITA with Dar.


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## kindergirl77 (Jun 30, 2005)

In the coloring on the wall situation where the parents talks to the child and problem solves- what age are we talking about?
It seems that younger than 4 they don't really understand 'consequences'.

With a younger child, that doesn't understand, what would you say/do?


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

To me logical consequences are, I tried to put your mitts on, then tried to get you to put your own mitts on. You refused the mitts, so I let you go outside with out the mitts and stick your hands in the snow.

Maybe that is more of a natural consequence.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Huh. So, if I don't like doing things can I not do them because I find them unpleasant and therefore punitive?


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I think you can problem-solve with kids of any age, in different ways. When my daughter was, say, 18 months old, if this situation had occured, I would have said something like, "Oh, no, crayon on the wall! What a mess!" - not in an upset tone, but in a sort of "Hey, something is going on here" tone. The I would have gotten out a couple of rags and squirt bottles of cleaning stuff, talking about how we needed to clean the wall now. If Rain was near me and attentive to what I was doing, I would have offered her one - if she was busy running around in circles and climbing on the couch, I would have just cleaned it myself, no problem. Usually she helped - she loved that sort of cleaning when she was little, especially cleaning counters and tables.

I would also tell myself to keep a closer eye on the crayons, because really that's my responsibility, if I want un-crayoned walls...

She didn't always help, but she did sometimes, and the older she got, the more she did.

dar


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
Huh. So, if I don't like doing things can I not do them because I find them unpleasant and therefore punitive?

Things aren't punitive. People are punitive.

But yes, I choose not to do lots of things because I find them unpleasant. Currently I am choosing not to clean the cat box, for example, or do the dishes.









Dar


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## One Art (Nov 9, 2005)

I like Dar's replies.... and I am also wondering? What if I tell my dd (3.5 years) that walls aren't for drawing on, and that I'll be happy to help get her some paper in a minute, and that I expect her to help me clean it up? I mean, obviously, I can't (and wouldn't) make her, but is there something wrong with stating the expectation? If so, I'd like to know. And, should she choose not to help me, I would probably (at my current place in the GD learning curve) say something along the lines of "well I will clean it up because I don't want this crayon on the wall, but I feel a little frustrated that I am cleaning up your mess by myself." I want to clarify, because I know this could be misread, that I would NOT act upset or mad at her, but that I would simply state that I was frustrated so that she knew I was not just always content to clean up after her.... thoughts?


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## kindergirl77 (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
I think you can problem-solve with kids of any age, in different ways. When my daughter was, say, 18 months old, if this situation had occured, I would have said something like, "Oh, no, crayon on the wall! What a mess!" - not in an upset tone, but in a sort of "Hey, something is going on here" tone. The I would have gotten out a couple of rags and squirt bottles of cleaning stuff, talking about how we needed to clean the wall now. If Rain was near me and attentive to what I was doing, I would have offered her one - if she was busy running around in circles and climbing on the couch, I would have just cleaned it myself, no problem. Usually she helped - she loved that sort of cleaning when she was little, especially cleaning counters and tables.

I would also tell myself to keep a closer eye on the crayons, because really that's my responsibility, if I want un-crayoned walls...

She didn't always help, but she did sometimes, and the older she got, the more she did.

dar









That makes sense to me.


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## kindergirl77 (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
To me logical consequences are, I tried to put your mitts on, then tried to get you to put your own mitts on. You refused the mitts, so I let you go outside with out the mitts and stick your hands in the snow.

Maybe that is more of a natural consequence.

I think the parent would be wise to take the mittens or jacket or whatever with them for later use. A child may not understand that they may need them later, but as adults we can think ahead and see that they will. Telling a child that they will just have to be cold and deal with it is the type of natural consequence that is really just a form of punishment.

A logical consequence to me is that if the kid is hitting another child with a toy, then the toy needs to be put away until the child can play with it nicely.


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## tatermom (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emilyrose* 
I like Dar's replies.... and I am also wondering? What if I tell my dd (3.5 years) that walls aren't for drawing on, and that I'll be happy to help get her some paper in a minute, and that I expect her to help me clean it up? I mean, obviously, I can't (and wouldn't) make her, but is there something wrong with stating the expectation? If so, I'd like to know. And, should she choose not to help me, I would probably (at my current place in the GD learning curve) say something along the lines of "well I will clean it up because I don't want this crayon on the wall, but I feel a little frustrated that I am cleaning up your mess by myself." I want to clarify, because I know this could be misread, that I would NOT act upset or mad at her, but that I would simply state that I was frustrated so that she knew I was not just always content to clean up after her.... thoughts?

That's what I expect to do, too, in another year (though still working on the not ACTING mad or upset part!







). Right now I tend to say that I would appreciate it if DS would help me clean up, leaving the option to him (e.g. less of an "expectation" since I feel like at 2yo it's still more my responsibility to make sure there are no crayons placed temptingly near the walls







), but still stating the part about how walls are not for coloring on, etc. Curious to hear other thoughts on this...


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kindergirl77* 
I think the parent would be wise to take the mittens or jacket or whatever with them for later use. A child may not understand that they may need them later, but as adults we can think ahead and see that they will. Telling a child that they will just have to be cold and deal with it is the type of natural consequence that is really just a form of punishment.

I agree.

Here is a good example of a natural consequence, as told by Aletha Solter
http://www.awareparenting.com/
during a discussion on Discipline.

Daughter leaves wet pool clothes (bathing suit, towel) in the bathroom floor and refuses (forgets, dawdles, whatever) to pick up after herself.

Mother leaves it there. The next time daughter needs it, it's right where she left it.

Daughter now remembers and does pick up wet pool clothes.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
If Rain was near me and attentive to what I was doing, I would have offered her one - if she was busy running around in circles and climbing on the couch, I would have just cleaned it myself, no problem. Usually she helped - she loved that sort of cleaning when she was little, especially cleaning counters and tables.

I would also tell myself to keep a closer eye on the crayons, because really that's my responsibility, if I want un-crayoned walls...

She didn't always help, but she did sometimes, and the older she got, the more she did.

This is basically what I did as well. As the kids get older you can expand on what the problem solving looks like and they can get involved etc.


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## mom22girls (May 5, 2005)

What about when logical consequences affect more than just the individual involved - thereby extending the consequences to the rest of the family.

5 year old insists on wearing party shoes to playground. Party shoes cause bleeding blister. 5 year old screams and howls that she wants to go home (despite mom's AMAZING first aid kit). Family outing is no longer fun, and becomes tense mess.

This is the part that I have trouble with. I think it would be much easier with just one child....


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

firstly, ITA with everything Dar said,
I really dont believe in forcing anything, and forcind a child to clean crayon off the wall is punishment IMHO if the kid doesnt want to do it. not to mention the subtle message in making someone destroy their own art. if you're really attached to crayon-free walls, I'm always big on having one designated "drawing wall", even just a section of wall, maybe in the kid's room or hall, so they have a place they CAN draw on (after all, drawing on the wall is FUN!).

About the mittens in the snow, I also think, well, if the kid doesnt want to wear shoes/jacket/mittens/whatever, let her go out without, but ALWAYS have them handy, coz sure as eggs, the child will realise they actually do want them soon enough.

I think making a child go out in the cold without warmies just because she couldnt see ahead enough to put them on before going out is too harsh. when we were kids my little sister and her almost albino pale friend went to the beach, fully hatted, t-shirted and sunscreened. but the boy, then maybe 8 years old, forgot to put cream on the tops of his feet, which burned till they were swollen to 2 sizes bigger and deep purpley-black !!!
as a "logical consequence" his mother wouldnt treat the burn, even refused the aloe vera i brought around! so "he will remember to wear sunscreen next time"

I know this is an extreme example, but its all the same thing, to me.
just my 2 cents


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

another thought, if *I"M* the one who wants clean walls, then I'm the one who has to clean them (a logical consequence







)

about party shoes, same thing, have some nice comfy slippers handy, maybe tape up the feet with athletic tape or plasters before heading out, and in the end, its not fun for anyone when one of the party is suffering. just go home, and come back later, I reckon.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:

another thought, if *I"M* the one who wants clean walls, then I'm the one who has to clean them
I don't understand this. It sounds as though it's all about personal preferences rather than community expectations. All communities have to have rules to be able to get along, and a family is no exception. What if it was mean yelling? Say the kid feels angry and yells at their sister. Should I just tell the sister that since *she* doesn't like being yelled at it's basically her problem and she should just walk away?

Dar's example of how to deal with a younger kid is perfect. They are too young to understand being considerate to others and community rules. But for an older kid, I feel it is important that they start to learn that sometimes they have to do things they don't like in consideration for the community. That's what we do as adults, and kids have to learn that at some point too.

Certainly some kids will pick it up just by watching their parents' example. That's the ideal. But some kids will not. What does one do about them?

Sometimes it's easy to just let the consequence happen, like leaving a wet swimming suit on the ground so the kid doesn't have a clean swimming suit when they need one. But so many other things have consequences that do not directly affect the kid. Like if a 7 year old scribbles on a wall in a rental that is textured so you can't get all the crayon off. The parents have to bear the consequence of losing the rental deposit, the kid is not old enough to bear that consequence.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I think there's a wide range of what people think GD is and isn't, so you're going to find a lot of different answers here.

I think anything that wouldn't happen naturally is technicaly a punishment. And I don't necessarily see a huge difference between consequences and punishments, mainly because I think some people (not meaning anyone here) try to "pretty up" a punishment by calling it a consequence - though I do know that there is a difference between the two in their definitions. And while I am not a fan of punishments that are unrelated to whatever the situation was (no dessert if you don't do your homework), I am not opposed to punishments/consequences that are logically and directly related to the situation. I also am in favor of having kids, even young ones, being expected (but not forced) to make amends and help remedy situations they've caused (whether accidental or purposeful) - through modeling, working together, and for older children, perhaps a gentle reminder and bump in the right direction - but WITHOUT shaming them or beating a dead horse about their involvement in the situation.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I asked about this awhile ago. Having read the answers, and thought about it a lot, I think it depends on your mindset. If your attitude and mindset are: the child has done this, now he/she must help clean up because he/she needs to feel he/she has done something wrong, then it's sort of a punishment. But not a hard one.

If you approach it more like, "Well, you've colored on the wall again, I guess we'll be cleaning that up, won't we?" as in, the kid is sharing in the whole experience, then it's not. After all, we have clean houses for reasons that children can't always understand. And a kid needs to know that if the walls get dirty, they do need to get cleaned. Not all kids will automatically get that.

I think here the approach really is key.

After all, some people get paid to color on walls. It's not, in and of itself, a bad act. The inappropriateness of it has to do with arbitrary norms about color homogeneity on walls and doing what mommy and/or daddy said not to.

So, the natural consequences are not cleaning the wall, but having mommy or daddy unhappy. The social consequences- related to social expectations of walls and distribution of household duties- are that parent and child clean the wall.

I don't see a logical consequence here but that's just me and I have a strict definition of "logical".


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I think anything that wouldn't happen naturally is technicaly a punishment. And I don't necessarily see a huge difference between consequences and punishments, mainly because I think some people (not meaning anyone here) try to "pretty up" a punishment by calling it a consequence - though I do know that there is a difference between the two in their definitions. And while I am not a fan of punishments that are unrelated to whatever the situation was (no dessert if you don't do your homework), I am not opposed to punishments/consequences that are logically and directly related to the situation. I also am in favor of having kids, even young ones, being expected (but not forced) to make amends and help remedy situations they've caused (whether accidental or purposeful) - through modeling, working together, and for older children, perhaps a gentle reminder and bump in the right direction - but WITHOUT shaming them or beating a dead horse about their involvement in the situation.


I guess this is where I stand. I see the point that anything that wouldn't happen naturally can be construed as a punishment. But I agree with this point that I am in favor of having kids make amends and help remedy situations that they have caused without shaming. FWIW, logical consequnces are listed in the "Alternative to Punishments" sticky.

Quote:

Dar's example of how to deal with a younger kid is perfect. They are too young to understand being considerate to others and community rules. But for an older kid, I feel it is important that they start to learn that sometimes they have to do things they don't like in consideration for the community. That's what we do as adults, and kids have to learn that at some point too.
I also agree with this point. I am raising a future adult, she will be partcipating in the community at large her whole life. I want her to know that we all have roles and responsibilities in the community and I think those lessons are easier to learn when they start young and peaceful-- not shaming or forcful.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

But then I don't think logial consequences are punishment, I see unrelated consequences like time-outs and taking away privelages as punishment. What do you think?
I agree with you

Quote:

Usually, yes. If it's something the child finds unpleasant that you're insisting he do, in the hopes that he'll be less likely to repeat his "misdeed", it's punishment in my book.
I do not agree with this -- as long as the unplesant things is directly connected to and caused by the child willing behavior -- then

crayons on teh wall. it has to be cleaned up, and momma should not have to do it alone as she did not color on the wall (now if she doesn. she cleanis it alone)...so while it is unpleasnat -- it is not punishiment (artifical and meant to hurt or demean).

most natural conqesuences are unpleasant -- the pleastent ones people don't talk about -- like being really tired after staying up till 3 am on the Net, or feeling sick after eating a lot of crap.....or having to clean the walls when you didn't check the lib on the blender......

I look for things that are logfical, reasonable, and connected. I don't like no homeowrk = no dessert, however i do accpet throwing food at dinner and being loud and rude = no dessert.

I don't expect every consequence to be totally natural -- as i saw a poster point out once we are as parent obligated to protect our child from some natural consequences -- no homework all sememster as a high schooler = the natural consequence is the get a very bad grade --- but that has long term effect on GPA and college and so on that the child can not understand or foresee; thus we are parents impose an artifical concequence, on failure to complete homework......

allowing purely natural consequences can -- IMO -- either taker too long, or be too dangerous. so we sub in logical or reasonablely connected consequences.

I seethings as C and not a P as long as they are not mean spritied, shameful, violent, and are connected in some way and "have soemthng to do with teh offence" a throw toy is taken way, if the child won't listen the toy that is distracted them is removed....

and I do not buy the "if i want clean walls i clean them" ...............that just gives others a free pass to do whatever they want -- and say "well i dont care if milk is spilled on on the floor and is gross and a silp danger...so i am not going to clean it up". or "I don't care that the dishes are dirty and piled up" or "I like markers on my walls".........We are a family, who live in a house together, we all have a responiblity to see that the house is cared for and that teh house as well as each other is treated with kind respect and careing...........

Quote:

And a kid needs to know that if the walls get dirty, they do need to get cleaned. Not all kids will automatically get that.
I agree -- this is parenting. Kids are not born knowing that dishes need to wahes, messes cleaned up and so on ... they learnit both by observation and by encouragement (We tell DS each night time to clean up toys so we know wher to find them tomorrow -- he is starting to help too -- then i comment int he morning, ge i am glad we put everything away last ngiht now i know right where to find your truck)......


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Can I just ask what people here think of the term "social consequences"?

I just made it up though I'm probably not the first to think of it. I just feel that a lot of social consequences are worth teaching kids about, though they aren't logical to a kid. A child has to learn that when you drop something from the fifth floor, it might / will break. This is a natural consequence. But when you hit someone else, the consequence isn't as set in stone. It's not physics. That person might hit you back. They might never speak to you again. They might go ahead and marry you, if that's what they've been taught is normal in a relationship.

So my feeling is, that kids do need to know that hitting has negative consequences with other human beings. No, they do not need to feel that they might be hit. But they do need to know that others are very unhappy.

A normal consequence of being rude, at the table or otherwise, is that the society asks you to leave. Or they might all leave (depends on the venue). So I think these things are normal social consequences. But not logical, or natural, because they vary from culture to culture, and you couldn't guess what they might be just from thinking about the offensive act itself.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

Can I just ask what people here think of the term "social consequences"?
I think it is great -- and applies in may places, like you say.

actually MOSt of our consequences are in this catogory -- hitting isn't nice and so on.......

and I think it is totally vaid. we have an obligation to our children to teach them to function in the society in which we live -- be in the middle of themidwest, or a country with a more excate behvaior code. We do our child a disservice by not prepareing them for reality........


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I just skimmed the thread, but I want to address the idea that it's just the parents' attitutes that determine how punative something is...

I think of it almost entirely opposite of that. This is about the child's Self, boundaries, and body/mind integrity. *It's about how they perceive the interaction with the parent.* True, intent and how we choose to see our kids is very important in keeping our balance in parenting. However, in the case of punishing, there is a very real line that can violate a child's self - no matter how "nice" you're thinking.

It's our jobs to consider intent of the child. And we can help them find a way to express themselves healthily. The chid cannot consider intent in us. It's not possible for a small child to be "nicely" punished, but think, "This goes against everything I think and care about, but Mom's really trying to help me understand that people like boring walls." It just simply isn't how it works.

There is an underlying need or desire. There is always something underlying. And looking at actions of the child short changes both of us. It cheats us out of a chance at deeper intimacy and bonding. This is what I did with the crayons. I posted about it back when it was happening...

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=431202

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*

*drawing on walls - what has worked for us*

I thought with all the negative interactions we post about, and questions about what to do, maybe it would be good to post about something that has worked for us recently.

DS (2.25 yo) has developed a love of crayons and has been drawing on the bathtub walls (with bath crayons) for quite a while. But then he got the Harold and the Purple Crayon series on DVD and has wanted to write everywhere! (It hasn't helped matters that we are painting the condo to move, and he really wants to help.)

Well, I explained that the bathtub was a "special" wall for writing and that we don't do it on these walls... And that Mommy doesn't like to keep cleaning this wall... Daddy brought home this giant pad of paper for drawing... etc... DS clearly explained to me that he wants to write on that wall, and that he thinks it should have pictures. So it dawned on me that he might be hearing my pleas for clean walls (and my wiping his art away) as signs that I didn't like his artwork. So I changed tacks.

I reassured him that his art was beatiful and how much I appreciate his helping us making the house nice. And explained that I wanted to keep his art for a long time, so if we put it on the giant paper we could keep it as long as he wants.

He draws on his paper all day long, hasn't tried to write on the walls since.

Just thought I'd share what worked for us...

He wasn't "not getting along" socially, or getting into mischief, or anything like that. There's no ill intent, selfishness or anything else that needs "correcting". There's no lack or responsibility or caring about others that needs teaching.

He just wanted to participate, to share his artwork with us. He just wanted validation that his efforts were valuable to us.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I think "social consequences" has some dangerous implications in families who are operating from a punative paradigm - whether they call it that or not.

I'm all about giving DS all the imformation I have so he can make informed decisions. ...*Explaining* what social consequences are and how to judge / navigate them. But when I hear a mother say she uses love withdrawl and calls it some flavor of "social consequence", I cringe.







It's really, really common.

Therefore, I think the distiction that needs to be made is between acting out your own perceptions about society vs being on the same team with the child and guiding them with your knowledge and their needs in mind.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
Usually, yes. If it's something the child finds unpleasant that you're insisting he do, in the hopes that he'll be less likely to repeat his "misdeed", it's punishment in my book. Whether you're having him clean crayon off the walls or do 50 pushups or taking away his crayons for a week, it still fits the above criteria.

On the other hand, if you sit down and talk about the crayoned-on wall with the child and he freely decides to clean the crayon off the wall, that would be different - that would be problem-solving.

dar

ITA. With my ds, he'd most likely choose to help after I requested it. Whether it was because he wanted to because it seemed fun, or because he wanted to because he knows that would be the most "socially acceptable" thing (not because I'd get mad otherwise, or would force him if he chose not to).
In either of those cases I don't see it as punishment. It's not about making him do something unpleasant to condition him against drawing on the wall in the future.
But if he chose not to, and then I insisted he help, or I get mad that he chose not to, then yeah, that would be punishment. If I did it that way, I would want it to serve as a negative effect on him for doing something that I didn't like.

Here's one of the merriam webster definition of punish:
1 a : to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation b : to inflict a penalty for the commission of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation

I think that clearly includes logical consequences that are meant to be a penalty for an offense.

Here's the Wikipedia definition :
Punishment is the practice of imposing something unpleasant or aversive on a person or animal in response to an unwanted or disobedient behavior.
(and)
In the field of psychology punishment has a more restrictive and technical definition. In this field, punishment is the reduction of a behavior via a stimulus which is applied ("positive punishment") or removed ("negative punishment").

I don't think that you can decide on a definition of punishment that excludes "penalties" that seem logical to the parent. kwim?


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't think it's a punishment to require a child to clean up a mess they have made. If the parent adds a comment about "That will teach you not to draw on the walls," then that would wander over into punishment. I would view the clean up job as related to what has already transpired, not a ward against future incidents.


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## Music-mommy (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
another thought, if *I"M* the one who wants clean walls, then I'm the one who has to clean them (a logical consequence







)

.

I don't totally agree with this, I think it's fine to have rules in your house, we don't pee on the floor we pee in the toilet, we don't put marker on the walls we do it on paper etc.. to respect where we live because we want our house to be a nice happy place.

And explaining it in that vain to a child and saying that she now has to help you clean it up to me is not punishment , it is the natural consequence of doing something that is not ok with your rules. Now if the child is too young and didn't know it... then it's one thing. But you can also make cleaning the walls a fun thing. "Let's see if we can get all this marker off the walls!".

DD had her friends over and they decided to take a box of crackers and smush them all over the floor and into the rug. and when I saw it I told them they needed to clean it up before they moved onto another game. That we don't do those things in our house. To me that is a natural consequence.

In the real world, if you are at starbucks and you spill your coffee on the floor, by mistake, do you just walk out and leave the mess simply because you think it would suck to get on your knees and clean it up? No you clean it up because you respect that the owners don't want coffee on their floor and you don't want anyone else to slip on it.

To me it's the same thing.


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## Music-mommy (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
I

Here's one of the merriam webster definition of punish:
1 a : to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation b : to inflict a penalty for the commission of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation

I think that clearly includes logical consequences that are meant to be a penalty for an offense.

Here's the Wikipedia definition :
Punishment is the practice of imposing something unpleasant or aversive on a person or animal in response to an unwanted or disobedient behavior.
(and)
In the field of psychology punishment has a more restrictive and technical definition. In this field, punishment is the reduction of a behavior via a stimulus which is applied ("positive punishment") or removed ("negative punishment").

I don't think that you can decide on a definition of punishment that excludes "penalties" that seem logical to the parent. kwim?

Personally I enjoy cleaning my house because it makes me feel good after. Some people feel it's punishment to clean their houses because they prefer to have things in a state of disarray. I had a roommate in college who hated it when I cleaned the apt. she would quickly throw stuff all over the place after. When I asked her why, she said it made her uncomfortable to live in a clean tidied up house, her house was always in disarray and to her that made it more homey. I was the opposite.

I don't see why cleaning up one's mess is considered punishment, it can be just as enjoyable to make a mess all over the floor with paint, then to clean it with a mop... dd recently painted all over her easel, all over the floor, the walls and the bathroom, we spent an hour cleaning it up and frankly, it was fun! I don't think she viewed it as punishment.

I think giving children ownership over their living space is a valuable thing too. If one always cleans up after them regardless of what they have done, if their room is always cleaned for them, then they have no pride in keeping it nice themsleves, simply because they want it to be nice.


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

Personally, I don't think cleaning the wall after DC has colored on it is a punishment. Our house has rules and one of the rules is that we take care of our living space, therefore, if you mess it up, you clean it up. Of course, I wouldn't have my 9 month old cleaning the wall, as she's too young to understand that there are rules and that what she did was wrong.......my almost 4 yo on the other hand, knows very well that we have rules and that there are consequences for not following (and that consequence is cleaning it up). You can call it punishment if you want, and if that's what you think that's your perogative (I guess I'm not so AP after-all). To me, a punishment would be getting sent to your room for coloring on the wall, not being asked to clean it up.

I fail to see how cleaning the mess for your child helps them to learn that it is unacceptable to color on walls. You may think it's o.k. at your house, but I guarantee that when you visit someone else's house, they won't think DC coloring on their wall is cute, and they should not be expected to clean up a mess your DC made.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Music-mommy* 
I don't see why cleaning up one's mess is considered punishment, it can be just as enjoyable to make a mess all over the floor with paint, then to clean it with a mop... dd recently painted all over her easel, all over the floor, the walls and the bathroom, we spent an hour cleaning it up and frankly, it was fun! I don't think she viewed it as punishment.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. If it's more of a "oh, ds, that's a big mess! Let's clean it up." and ds does so willingly, then I personally wouldn't call it a punishment.
But if I MADE him do it, whether he liked it or not, and my intention was that it would be so negative that he would "learn a lesson" about making messes in the future, then it would be a punishment (well, I guess unless he was having fun doing it. lol)

I actually do see the point about having kids clean up messes they make. Not as a deterrant to future mess making. But like the spilled coffee example given earlier. It's just something you do.

If my ds colored on the walls, and for some reason refused to help clean it off, I guarantee you that wouldn't hinder his learning about it not being socially acceptable to color on walls.
As a matter of fact, I tend to believe the opposite- forcing him to clean (if he is going to experience it as punishment) won't teach him about what is or isn't socially acceptable. It will teach him to NOT do something because he doesn't like the effect it will have on himself. It won't be because he cares how his actions affect others.
I'd probably ask for his assistance in cleaning, then make sure he has plenty of opportunities to display his artistic genius


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Music-mommy* 
I think giving children ownership over their living space is a valuable thing too. If one always cleans up after them regardless of what they have done, if their room is always cleaned for them, then they have no pride in keeping it nice themsleves, simply because they want it to be nice.









:


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I posted a very similar question recently but didn't get very many response.

But anyways, this is what the sticky at the top of this forum says, an excerpt from the book Natural Family Living by Peggy O'Mara:

Quote:

Alternatives To Punishment
Copy this list and post it where you can see it, as a constant reminder.

Use positive reinforcement.

Create a positive environment.

Say yes as much as possible.

Save no for the important things.

Use natural consequences.

Use logical consequences.

Use restitution.

Leave it up to your child.

Compromise.

State your expectations, and get out of the way.

Give specific instructions.

Give a reason.

Offer help.

Give a choice.

Redirect your child.

Remove your child.

Make positive statements.

Give in occasionally.

Give your child time to agree.

Simply insist.

Make rules.

Ignore some behavior.

Avoid nagging and threats.

Distract your child.

Use humor.

Make it a game.

Be willing to admit your mistakes.

Stop and think before you act.

Don't make a big fuss over little things.

Stick to routines.

Don't hurry your children too much.

Get to the root of the problem.

Correct one behavior at a time.

Give yourselves time.

Use the golden rule.

Model appropriate behavior.

Think of your child as an equal.

Always keep your love for your child in mind.

From the book Natural Family Living by Peggy O'Mara, editor and publisher of Mothering Magazine
So Peggy classifies both natural (your hands are cold because you wouldn't wear your mittens) and logical (I took the crayons away because you colored on the wall) consequences as something Other than punishment.

and furthermore, from pg. 193 in the Discipline Chapter of the book Natural Family Living by Peggy O'Mara (Thanks to georgia):

Quote:

Use Logical Consequences

If you must provide a consequence for an action, make it a logical one. Say your child goes to a friend's house after shcool without telling you--have her check in with you even more formally before going anywhere until you feel she's back on track. Logical consequences must be fair, respectful of the child, and connected to the behavior. The cause-effect relationship makes this form of discipline more effective than a punishment that has no connection to the offense.
So I was kinda confused myself







but I'm going for using logical consequences when absolutely necesary. I had been personally aiming for consensual living but that hasn't been going well for me at all lately with a 5 yr old and 1 yr old, and now I have a new baby on the way. I love Peggy O'mara, and is she said it is ok, I'm (trying to be) ok with it.









I recently used a logical consequence as follows: I had taken over an hours to get my ds to sleep, and my dd was insisting on riding a noisy bigwheel around the kitchen (thanks for bringing that think into my house grandma!). I asked her to stop, she said she'd ride it on the carpet but refused to get off and walk it - was going to ride it there. I was very afraid the baby would get woken up, was desperate for a 1/2 of a break, pulled her off and deposited the bike in the garage, where it shoudl have been in the first place, then felt bad about doing it. That was the catalyst for me asking the question. I wanted to know, "Did I use punishment???". Funny how it is all in the label....

~Tracy,
mama just trying to get by the best I can


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I believe in treating others (children included) as I'd like to be treated (if I were them and in their situation). Whenever I diverge from the Golden Rule with my children, I run the risk of making them feel punished.

If I'd left my wet towel and swimsuit in a heap on the bathroom floor, and someone else noticed -- I wouldn't like for that other person to just leave it and not say anything. Especially if I'm an inexperienced child -- I'd like for someone to take the time to explain what happens when you leave wet stuff in a heap.

If this person has already explained it to me, and I'm still forgetting -- I'd prefer for them to talk with me and encourage me to brainstorm about ways to help me remember -- maybe a note on the bathroom door that'll glare me in the face as I go out, maybe another on my bedroom door: "Is my wet stuff hanging up???"

If I'm a young child who loves to draw -- I'd like to know how much my family enjoys my work (as Aira mentioned), I'd like lots of places where it's okay to draw, and if I end up drawing on the walls, yes, I'd like for my parents to explain WHY they prefer to keep the walls clean, and I'd like for them to show me how we can make things right.

I wouldn't want to be forced into scrubbing -- but I think a creative parent very well COULD help me feel like helping by having a positive, encouraging attitude.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Ita with what mammal mama said!
I think that helping clean up could be turned into a very positive experience. Especially for a child like my ds who is very sensitive to my disapproval. He'd (most of the time) welcome the chance to help fix things (even if I'm not angry at him for it).


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

I think logical consequences are too often used as a euphenism for punishment, like I've heard, "Well, you chose to do that so this is your consequence (insert random punishment here)." Jane Nelsen has switched from calling logical consequences to solutions b/c that is better reflective of what she teaches and helps people get away from "consequences" - here's an article she wrote on No More Logical Consequences.

In the OP, I would have handed my child some stuff to clean up and we would clean up together, reiterating that crayons stay on paper (and being thankful I only buy washable markers/crayons). If for some reason I was overly upset and couldn't refrain from saying things like, "See what you did? See how *mad* you made mommy?" etc. then I would clean it up myself to work off some energy b/c I think those comments are punitive but the action of cleaning up a mess you made, to me only makes sense and I don't think it becomes punitive until you are piggybacking comments or actions to make the child "learn her lesson" etc.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Yes, I like thinking in terms of solutions rather than consequences, too. When we're solving problems WITH our children, that's so much more of a positive, moving-forward kind of stance -- whereas the word "consequences" seems to focus people more on looking BACK at the mistakes.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I have never considered truly logical consquences punishment. Today at a local crunchy mom meet-upwe had a discussion about this, the example being a child coloring on the wall with crayons. Is it punishment to have them help clean it? I vote no, it's a consequence. But then I don't think logial consequences are punishment, I see unrelated consequences like time-outs and taking away privelages as punishment. What do you think?
I do not think the expectation that they clean up the wall is a punishment.

In my opinion, restorative expectations (which are often called logical consequences) aren't punishment. If you broke it, and you are expected to fix it, that is not my definition of punishment on any level at all. Not for myself, or for others, including children.


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## mama42dds (Jul 9, 2006)

ok -so what if you "expect" the child to clean "it" up and they refuse? You can't make them help clean up.

Do you punish for refusing to help?

I think it is is a slippery slope...

I struggle a lot with my 3.5 yo who has taken to saying (very loud and angrily) "no, I'm not going to do that" in various situations


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama42dds* 
ok -so what if you "expect" the child to clean "it" up and they refuse? You can't make them help clean up.

Do you punish for refusing to help?

I think it is is a slippery slope...

I struggle a lot with my 3.5 yo who has taken to saying (very loud and angrily) "no, I'm not going to do that" in various situations

That's why I think in terms of helping my child see WHY I prefer the walls left clean, and helping her see HOW she can help make things right -- but not in terms of EXPECTING or FORCING her to make restitution.

If we give them the information and tools they need to understand others' perspectives and get along with others and correct their errors -- we're doing our job as parents. Though I don't "expect" her to pitch in and help with every cleanup -- I have enough confidence in her desire for harmonious relationships to know that she usually IS going to help.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
I would also tell myself to keep a closer eye on the crayons, because really that's my responsibility, if I want un-crayoned walls...
dar









: So is it a natural consequence or a logical consequence for you that she colored on the walls?


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kindergirl77* 
I think the parent would be wise to take the mittens or jacket or whatever with them for later use. A child may not understand that they may need them later, but as adults we can think ahead and see that they will. Telling a child that they will just have to be cold and deal with it is the type of natural consequence that is really just a form of punishment.

A logical consequence to me is that if the kid is hitting another child with a toy, then the toy needs to be put away until the child can play with it nicely.

About the mittens/jacket. Yes of course. I live in Canada, it would not occur to me to not bring them in that sort of weather.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
and I do not buy the "if i want clean walls i clean them" ...............that just gives others a free pass to do whatever they want -- and say "well i dont care if milk is spilled on on the floor and is gross and a silp danger...so i am not going to clean it up". or "I don't care that the dishes are dirty and piled up" or "I like markers on my walls".........We are a family, who live in a house together, we all have a responiblity to see that the house is cared for and that teh house as well as each other is treated with kind respect and careing.....

true. but I genuinely believe if the child sees her parents every day, calmly, as a matter of course, tidying up after themselves, and whatever, and reminding "we keep the house clean", then the child will naturally learn to do this, just as she learns to go to the toilet when she feels the need, and to wipe after. we learn to do these things by example, and by habit.

I really think the best thing in this situation is to say something like, "oh, you drew on the wall, why not tell me about your picture?" then, after appreciating the art for its beauty, remind the child that walls are not the best place for drawing, and that's why we have paper, etc, and then suggest that we clean the wall off now together. small children usually love to clean stuff up, and if the habit is cultivated from the beginning, it will seem natural to them.

On the other hand, if a parent sees a childs drawing on the wall, and just reacts with horror and dismay, and then forces the child to clean it up, I cringe to think how that child feels; his artistic expression has been trampled on, his mother is disappointed in him.

Of course we have rules and boundaries, and its normal for children to learn these, but flat out, we learn better from loving respect than fear and punishment. and to be honest, we cant expect a small child to remember and follow all the rules all the time. life is a lesson; we wouldnt expect a child learning piano to play perfectly every time, even if its a piece they've played well once before. we're all allowed to slip up, to make mistakes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Music-mommy* 
In the real world, if you are at starbucks and you spill your coffee on the floor, by mistake, do you just walk out and leave the mess simply because you think it would suck to get on your knees and clean it up? No you clean it up because you respect that the owners don't want coffee on their floor and you don't want anyone else to slip on it.

um, in an ideal world, maybe, but I'm speaking as someone who has worked as a waitress, and while some people will wipe their coffee, most wont.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama42dds* 
ok -so what if you "expect" the child to clean "it" up and they refuse? You can't make them help clean up.

Do you punish for refusing to help?

I think it is is a slippery slope...

I really agree with this idea. If you want the wall clean, then invite the child to help clean it, but that;s all you can do _ask_ them to do it, but we cant force them, then it becomes punishment.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
If you want the wall clean, then invite the child to help clean it, but that;s all you can do _ask_ them to do it, but we cant force them, then it becomes punishment.

I agree.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

ok -so what if you "expect" the child to clean "it" up and they refuse? You can't make them help clean up.

Do you punish for refusing to help?

I think it is is a slippery slope...
It's an expectation that we help clean up messes--like it's an expectation that we not hit each other, or that we put food back in the fridge. Nobody is punished for refusing, but that doesn't change the expectation that these things are done, and depending on the situation, refusing may change the pattern of the day.

Again, this really depends on the age of the child, what happened, etc. I clean up many things that aren't really messy, but are simply different than how I prefer. However, if we are talking about ds doing real damage to house property, or leaving an honest-to-goodness mess that prevents others from even using the area, it's not going to be acceptable to me that he walk away and ignore the situation. I'm going to let him know the situation needs his attention, and that we need to find a solution. I suppose if he inexplicably refused to help, I would clean it up, and afterwards my conversational focus with him would be to reach an understanding about what happened. Meaning, I would choose not to discuss other things until we had finished that conversation. And without exception, whatever caused ds to be difficult will fade, and he will come around to discuss what happened. For the most part, this is what I would do with anyone who had caused a big problem for which they seem initially unwilling to take responsibility.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I suppose if he inexplicably refused to help, I would clean it up, and afterwards my conversational focus with him would be to reach an understanding about what happened. Meaning, I would choose not to discuss other things until we had finished that conversation. And without exception, whatever caused ds to be difficult will fade, and he will come around to discuss what happened. For the most part, this is what I would do with anyone who had caused a big problem for which they seem initially unwilling to take responsibility.

I like this approach.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I like this approach.








Thanks.

I don't think accountability is a bad word--I really don't know how to live in community with others if there is no accountability for our choices and actions. I think people leap to the conclusion you must punish in order to "force" accountability. You cannot force a person to be responsible for anything. But, the flip side, is that someone who is being irresponsible doesn't get to dictate what resolution others need with them before moving on. If you can simply focus on what you need in order to resolve the issue, without letting the other person's temporary irrational/irritable mood distract you, eventually they will chill out and come around to having that conversation. This worked with ds as early as 3 years old--waiting until he was ready to talk before resolving a problem.

I'm 31 and this is still the best way for dh to resolve a problem with me when I'm in a foul mood







:


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama42dds* 
ok -so what if you "expect" the child to clean "it" up and they refuse? You can't make them help clean up.

Do you punish for refusing to help?

I think it is is a slippery slope...

Can you clarify what you mean here? Do you mean it is a slippery slope not to punish in those sort of situations? If so, I agree... "backtalk" and refusing is button-pushing for me for sure!

In that type of situation if my child was refusing, I'd take a step back from the situation for awhile. If it's becoming a power struggle I drop my end of the rope, b/c if I don't I quickly move back into a punitive mindset and start saying and doing things I regret. Like I said before, if I can't do things w/o being punitive I might clean it up myself to work off some energy.

I do, however, think restorative expectations (love that term!) are important, so it's more likely I'd state my expectation, hand her cleaning supplies and steer her toward the mess. If that resulted in a tantrum or refusal I'd assess the situation again. Sometimes my kids just need a minute to cool off and they eventually do it so I would reflect and say, "You're upset!" etc. If it's truly melting down I'd once again assess and remind them to use their self-calming tools (more about this in the excellent book Dealing With Disappointment by Elizabeth Crary).

HTH!


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## g&a (Dec 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
when we were kids my little sister and her almost albino pale friend went to the beach, fully hatted, t-shirted and sunscreened. but the boy, then maybe 8 years old, forgot to put cream on the tops of his feet, which burned till they were swollen to 2 sizes bigger and deep purpley-black !!!
as a "logical consequence" his mother wouldnt treat the burn, even refused the aloe vera i brought around! so "he will remember to wear sunscreen next time"

I know this is an extreme example, but its all the same thing, to me.
just my 2 cents

The logical consequence is the sunburn! I bet that hurt and the boy won't forget the tops of his feet again!! The parent doesn't need to do ANYTHING to reinforce what he did wrong! He already knows it! I would do everything I could to help that kid heal!

g.


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## Music-mommy (Jan 8, 2005)

Personally I have always found that if I do not approach it from a punitive aspect then my dd is usually quite happy to do it with me. It's only if I tell her she has to clean it up herself that she refuses.

I recently had a situation where dd and her friend (5 and 6 respectively) opened up all of the paints we had, and painted all over her easel, got it on the floor, all the way to the bathroom, there was paint splattered on the wall, everywhere...

She did help clean it up and I told her calmly that this was not ok to do this. And that from now on if she wanted to paint when her friends are over, that this could only happen if an adult was in the room watching... she agreed. She said they just got so excited. I don't view this as punishment or a consequence, simply as a fact of life.

When she paints alone she never make a mess like that. So I think it was just the hyperactivity of two girls together... it wasn't malicious, just good fun.

Anyhow I don't think she viewed this as a punishment at all.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I think there's a wide range of what people think GD is and isn't, so you're going to find a lot of different answers here.

I think anything that wouldn't happen naturally is technicaly a punishment. And I don't necessarily see a huge difference between consequences and punishments, mainly because I think some people (not meaning anyone here) try to "pretty up" a punishment by calling it a consequence - though I do know that there is a difference between the two in their definitions. And while I am not a fan of punishments that are unrelated to whatever the situation was (no dessert if you don't do your homework), I am not opposed to punishments/consequences that are logically and directly related to the situation. I also am in favor of having kids, even young ones, being expected (but not forced) to make amends and help remedy situations they've caused (whether accidental or purposeful) - through modeling, working together, and for older children, perhaps a gentle reminder and bump in the right direction - but WITHOUT shaming them or beating a dead horse about their involvement in the situation.


I agree with this. I think that most consequences are pretty punishments, but I'm not really opposed to punishments that are related to the action. I don't like time outs and sticker charts, but I'm for putting away the Lincoln Logs when you keep bonking your brother with them. I think it is a punishment, but I'm ok with that. I also expect but don't force kids to make amends. I think it is important to show kids that their actions and words affect their family and community.


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## mama42dds (Jul 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *canadiyank* 
Can you clarify what you mean here?

I'd take a step back from the situation for awhile. If it's becoming a power struggle I drop my end of the rope, b/c if I don't I quickly move back into a punitive mindset and start saying and doing things I regret. Like I said before, if I can't do things w/o being punitive I might clean it up myself to work off some energy.

HTH!

I agree with that.

If my dd refuses a request that I feel is very important it is easy to say, "if you don't abc then xyz"...it always leads to trouble and nobody ends up happy with the situation. Ideally, I stop and ask myself why it is so important to me and how can I better convey that. Sometimes, I realize the reason is pretty arbitrary or just reflexive.

Other times I loose my patience and speak to her in a way that I'm sure conveys my frustration and that just frustrates her even more.

I'm still new at this UP thing. The one thing I have learned is that no matter what - if I regret something I say or do I tell her and apologize. We both feel better and get on with our day.

I intellectually agree with the UP philosophy...but I sometimes have a hard time putting it into play all the time in the real world. Was much easier before she turned 3.5


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