# Horrible experience on airplane



## annexk8 (Nov 22, 2005)

Just wanted some feedback/input on the experience we had this weekend. I am planning on writing a letter to the airline and I need to know what I should put in it. We were flying with our DS (2 1/2 and in a ff Marathon) and our DD (7 mo, under 20 lbs, in a rf Comfort Sport). DD's seat was a huge issue.

While we were getting everybody into their seats, the flight attendant came by and informed me that rearfacing seats were not allowed. I told her that DD is still an infant and is still required to be in a rearfacing seat, and that we'd flown many times on many airlines with rearfacing seats since DS was small. She very quickly jumped to the conclusion that I was going to become irate or something, and told me that that if I was going to "refuse to comply with policy" that she was going to ask the captain to escort me off the plane. I remained calm (though I was shaking) and asked to see the written policy.

She trotted off to get the manual, and we read it together. Obviously there was nothing in there that forbade rearfacing seats, but she persisted that she had heard in her "very recent training" that rearfacing seats were not going to be allowed but that she "didn't remember why." I stood my ground and basically said that since it wasn't in the manual, I wasn't going to turn DD around. Finally she agreed to "let me" leave the seat where it was "just this once" but she warned me that next time she wouldn't be so nice. I thought she would just drop the issue.

But about halfway through the (thankfully very short) flight, she returned to my seat to tell me that she had suddenly remembered that the reason rearfacing seats weren't going to be allowed anymore was that the person in front of the carseat couldn't recline their seat. I agreed that was true, but I asked her if it was more important to have an infant in a safe seat or to have a comfortable passenger. Basically she chose the comfort of the other customer, and she stayed to argue with me for about 10 minutes.

She:
-Argued that it was unnecessary to have an infant in a rearfacing seat "because the only thing we might run into up here is a cloud" (!!!).
-Said that she had never seen a baby in a rearfacing carseat on a plane, and didn't know what an infant carseat was.
-Reached across me to pull on the belt and the seat to make sure I had secured it.
-Failed to provide a satisfactory answer when I repeatedly asked her what my other options would be.

Ultimately, DD stayed in her seat and the FA and I agreed to disagree. I told her I would write a letter to the airline to ask them not to change their policy (which I don't even believe they're going to do, but I just wanted to get her off my back). But it was so stressful and of course since it's a small airline and a dinky airport, I spent the rest of the weekend worrying that she'd be the FA on the return trip, too. Fortunately, she wasn't, and nobody said boo to us about the seat on either leg coming back.

So. What should I say in my letter? Is it possible that some airline would change their policy to disallow rfing seats? What about infant seats?

The whole way home I just kept thinking about if there was heavy turbulence and I had a lap baby I would have to put her under the seat to keep her from becoming a projectile. No. *(%[email protected] way.


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## fizzymom (Nov 20, 2001)

http://www.faa.gov/passengers/fly_children/crs/

This quote is from the FAA website:

"Always follow the manufacturer's instructions when using a CRS. FAA recommends that a child weighing:

Less than 20 pounds use a rear-facing CRS"

HTH, fizzymom


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

I had something similiar (though certainly less stressful) happen to me the first time I flew with my son. He was 9 months. I went to install the seat rf and the FA came to tell me that wasn't allowed. I had called the airline prior to my flight and made sure, and so I told her this. She went to look it up. The passenger in front of me was not happy one bit, and had complained to the FA. The FA came back and said yes, I was right. She apologized to the other passenger, who wanted to be moved. The flight was full. The other passenger was angry her seat could not be reclined the whole what 2 inches? But she dealt with it, and my son was much safer. I don't get how reclining that tiny amount is somehow more important than the complete SAFETY of another passenger? It didn't happen again after that thankfully. So sorry you had to argue with the FA, if I was a passenger nearby I don't think I could keep quiet and would jump to defend you. But yes, it must be done very carefully and calmly. I do hope you pursue this!


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## catjw22 (Mar 26, 2008)

OMG--yes you should definitely write a letter. I am so sorry that you had to go through that AND worry that the same stupid FA would be on your return flight. Good luck!

I used to live in FL and my family is in NY. We've flown with my son probably upwards of 15 times and when he was little we always put his seat rear-facing. And we were never told to turn him around.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/60d70126cf679d5a8625723b007841e7/$FILE/AC%20120-87A.pdf

Read paragraph 18, it specifically says a child can use their seat on the plane the same as they would in a car. For your seat, that's 30# rfing, but obviously he's not even 20# so that's not even the real issue. We've flown several times (this last time we had 3 carseats w/ us, lol) and no one has ever complained about their seats not reclining. We even had Evan rfing this last time b/c he sat alone across the aisle from me (there was only 1 seat on that side of the plane, small plane), he was 33 mos and 26# at that time.









I did have one FA try to tell me Evan's seat could go the other way (he was rfing of course) when he was only 10 mos old and 16#. I said he's fine, and she let it drop, but come on, he was TINY, no way he was 20# (which that seat requires a child be 22# and 34" to ff anyways).

What airline were you on? Definitely write them and include the above info showing what the FAA says on the issue, their governing body. Add things like 'I've already shared my negative experience w/ your airline w/ many of the people I know' and you're 'disappointed that the FA was more intent on someone's comfort than a small child's safety'. This usually kicks them into gear as people don't like negative things being said about them b/c it's harder to forget bad things than good things. There was a mom on car-seat.org who went through a similar situation (except the just flat out refused to let her take her seat on board) so you might ask there.


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## butterfly_mommy (Oct 22, 2007)

Wow I am sorry the FA gave you such a hard time







: My sister is a FA and after her training told me that my DS was never allowed to fly not in a seat RF until he was over a year (her own policy







) She is horrified when she has someone fly with a baby on their lap. When you have turbulence or there is an emergency you have to put the baby in the burping position so they do not become a projectile









I hate how our North American society see infants and children as annoyances instead of members of society.







It's too bad if you can't recline your seat, it is more important for the baby to be safe.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Hi all,

Just a friendly mod reminder to abide by the MDC UA even if said FA was. Um. Wrong. I have removed some posts for violations to the UA. Thank you very much and have a great day.







:

Dallaschildren


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

I don't see the point in getting in such a tizz because the passenger in front was inconvenienced. No one tells you that the row in front of the exit row doesn't recline for safety reasons. If the FAA says it's okay, too bad for the rest. No one has to like it, but they do have to accept it.


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## JennaW (Oct 11, 2007)

I'm sorry for that experience you had, I would definitely write.

I guess I just wanted to chime in slightly OT about the whole reclining seat thing. I seriously do not get why people get so uptight about being able to recline their seat. I understand that some people have back problems or what not that makes reclining the seat necessary but I just can't stand the attitude people get about their "right" to recline their seat.

Besides RFing car seats, I have seen people recline their seats when the person behind them has long legs and their seat is literally squashing the persons knees, like digging into their leg. The squashed person will say "excuse me but your seat is squashing my legs, could you please not recline it so far?" and the other person will get all huffy about how they have the right to recline their seat and that its not their problem......I have seen this on more then one occasion. I also have long legs and have had my knees squashed and the person will keep pushing back on their seat, trying to get it to go back further. HELLO! Those are my legs in "the way", I would appreciate if you would stop repetitively jabbing your seat into them...

Okay sorry, rant over...just one of my pet peeves.


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## annexk8 (Nov 22, 2005)

Thanks everyone for validating my feelings about this experience. The FA's attempt to humiliate/intimidate/ridicule me has really taken its toll and I was starting to second guess myself even though I KNEW I was right.

The whole "right to a reclining seat" thing is ridiculous. My cousin in 6'7" or so and nobody tells him they're going to have to have the captain escort him off the airplane because he can't shorten his legs so the person in front of him can recline their seat.

The really ironic thing is that I put the baby in front of DS specifically because I thought the person in front of her would rather have an upright seat than have their seatback kicked by a 2-year old.

This is a small airline affiliated with US Air. I will be copying my letter to both.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

I'd say something like this:

"I had an unfortunate experience with a flight attendant on our recent flight from ________ to __________. Apparently, she misunderstood the training she'd had on the installation of infant carseats. She informed me that she had been trained that seats are not to be installed rearfacing. As I'm sure you know, this is in direct opposition to several portions of FAA Advisory Circular 120-87A, which specifically discusses aft-facing CRS devices in paragraphs 12 and 18.

The situation was aggravated by her strenuous attempts to get me to install my infant's seat in an unsafe manner, in order to enhance the comfort of the passenger in front of her. [Brief synopsis of how much time she spent harassing you about the seat.]

I'm afraid this experience will lead our family to seek travel with other airlines, but clarifying your training on the issue of carseat installation can hopefully prevent others from having a similar experience."

That should get you lots and lots of free travel vouchers and groveling ;-).

As an aside... that Advisory Circular is really interesting. Apparently, booster seats are verboten on aircraft (and the technical distinction is that approved CRSs have an internal harness, while booster seats do not). Also, while things like the Baby B'air are not disallowed for the cruise portion of the flight by the FAA, they specifically give airlines the latitude to create their own policies prohibiting them. The title of that section (paragraph 17) *also* mentions "cloth baby carriers," so theoretically airlines could make specific prohibitions against using slings, wraps, and ABCs during the cruise portion of a flight. :-/ I hope THEY don't realize that!

Ooh... and the beginning of paragraph 18 might be the source of some confusion. It says that the CRS must be installed in a forward-facing aircraft seat. Not that the CRS *itself* must be forward-facing, but that the seat it's attached to has to be. I had to double-take that at first!


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Holy annoying!







:

Good thinking to ask for the manual









I'd have told her she was annoying me and to go away. It does not matter what she thinks the reason is, its not in the manual therefore she is wrong.


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## GiantGi (Feb 13, 2007)

We flew recently from CT to AZ. We had three car seats and going out was no problem.

Coming home, we boarded the plane and DH installed the seats. I sat in the middle with the two youngest on either side of me. The flight attendant who helped us was great. As we were backing away from the gate another attendant came down the aisle and started to freak. She pushed a button to signal to the captain to stop. She said we couldnt put a carseat in the aisle seat.

I explained to her that we did it going out w/o a problem. I also told her I checked the FAA website prior to our trip to check on seating. She held up the plane until she made a phone call to her supervisor who in turn told her we were in the right.

I was so mortified and the passengers were quite irked. I couldnt wait for that 5 hour flight to be over.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Have any of you seen the show Airline? It's sort of a reality show with Southwest Airlines. After watching a bunch of those shows, it's pretty obvious that there are serious inconsistencies in what is allowed and not allowed by airlines. They also seem to have the right to toss people from flights if they don't like the color of their shirt or something equally minor. That show got me so paranoid about dh's flights that I made him swear that he will never go into an airport bar or drink a beer from anywhere on the same day he is supposed to fly out.

It really seems as though if some airline employee is having a bad day they will nitpick on things that either aren't really a big deal or not against rules, but they will do it in such a way that gets the passenger upset (rightfully upset at that) and then next thing you know they are tossed from the flight for being beligerent or aggressive.

It's been at least ten years since I have flown and I hope I can go at least that long again before having to deal with the hassels of flying.







to those of you who do have to do it.


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## turtlewomyn (Jun 5, 2005)

Did you get the FA's name? Sounds like she needs some more training.

I flew with DD when she was three months old. They also told us she needed to be forward facing on one of our flights (we complied out of fear of not being complacent I guess). On another flight a knowledgeable flight attendant told us it had to do with not blocking someone in with a rear facing seat. So, as long as we put DD in the window seat, she could rearface. When we tried to put her between us, we would have to forward face so I would not be blocked in.


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## Mommy2Austin (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *turtlewomyn* 
On another flight a knowledgeable flight attendant told us it had to do with not blocking someone in with a rear facing seat. So, as long as we put DD in the window seat, she could rearface. When we tried to put her between us, we would have to forward face so I would not be blocked in.


That makes sense. But that doesnt mean baby can't ever rf. Just has to be on the window seat. Gah I really dislike when companies let their employees go thoughtlessly untrained and unknowledgeable about things like this. Its worse when they make stuff up just to get their way


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## yvonnemlv (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
The title of that section (paragraph 17) *also* mentions "cloth baby carriers," so theoretically airlines could make specific prohibitions against using slings, wraps, and ABCs during the cruise portion of a flight. :-/ I hope THEY don't realize that!

One USA airline realizes that and about half the FAs told me to take my kid out of the wrap or Ergo. GRR. I try to politely argue that it is safer for the baby to be attached to me.. but no luck usually. Needless to say I stopped fliying with that airline.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yvonnemlv* 
One USA airline realizes that and about half the FAs told me to take my kid out of the wrap or Ergo. GRR. I try to politely argue that it is safer for the baby to be attached to me.. but no luck usually. Needless to say I stopped fliying with that airline.

Hm, was this during the WHOLE flight, or just the takeoff/landing?

According to the FAA, babywearing is *not* approved during takeoff/landing, only the cruise portion of the flight. It's that cruise portion that the airline has discretion over whether to allow it or not.


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## darien (Nov 15, 2005)

Anne!

When my older ds was 7m, he and I flew cross-country. The FA tried to install the carseat RF in his seat, had a hard time, and huffily switched it FF. She still couldn't seem to install it, and talked to me like that was my fault. I told her he needed to be RF; she replied that my carseat was not FAA approved, and that it would not fit.

I pointed to the (highly visible







) sticker that said it was FAA approved, and asked if I could install it myself. She said that was not allowed, and that I was going to have to just hold my baby. She also said they would have to delay the flight while someone took my carseat to the cargo hold.

There was no way I was going to let that happen. I bought a seat that I sure couldn't afford in order to exponentially increase ds' chances of surviving a crash! I told her I'd stand in the aisle with my screaming baby until his seat was ready.









I'm still mad, and a bit shocked that this happened, and it was 10 years ago!


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