# absolute desperation, i dont' know what to do w/him



## abandbunk (Jan 7, 2006)

i am so at the end of my rope, i feel completely unable to help my son, who is 4 1/2, ( i posted a week or so ago about him and his sister fighting, and him hurting her) well now he is attacking me, and i am so clueless what to do, he is going into "fits" where he just starts attacking me, hitting me, kicking me, and tonight he threw some things at me, it is downright scary, and so so sad for me







i am very worried about him, becuz nothing i do helps him, i try leaving (so as to not get hurt) but he just follows me, or kicks other things, i am feeling helpless as to what to do, i mean i get the long term things (sort of, like shadowing i thought i would do ,make sure of excersize, time alone w/his dad and w/me) but what do i do RIGHT then when he loses it? i'm totally dumbfounded, and feel like i cna't take him anywhere becuz of it, we went out ot breakfast this morning, he did well, we went to the inlaws tongiht, i ended up having to take him out of there kicking me, hitting me, fighting me, and now i am just crying, i am feeling so bad for him, and me. ANYTHING would be apprciated, i feel so alone right now (and yes i have a dh, he is just even more clueless than i @@ ).


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## mamasophy (Mar 15, 2007)

Hugs to you mama! I feel for you - I have a 4 1/2 year old who can be very much like that - trying to hurt me, then trying to destroy things if I move out of range! And throwing fits at the least provocation! I have to tell you, we a re confused as well - he's the youngest of 4, we don't use violence in our home, but he's an animal sometimes! I have restrained him or had my oldest son hold him gently but so he can't hurt us. I have "blanketed" him, which is a technique used in psych hospitals with out of control kids! I interned in psych at such a hospital - blanketing is just swaddling for big kids, and it actually worked, but was very tiring! Haven't done it since - but that one time he was VERY violent and would have hurt me or destroyed the house had I not gently restrained him! We've also left places if he throws a fit. It really helps to know how to hold/carry a fighting child so you don't get hurt and neither do they - if you want some tips PM me (I had training in this!). It will be OK! Lots of love!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

What do you do?

Occasionally my 4 year old tries to hurt me, I take her by the shoulders, get on her level, look in her eyes, and say in a very serious and quiet voice, "You may not hurt me!"

It hasn't always worked, but it does now. But she's not a very physical person, so please don't be offended if that's advice that is way too basic for your problem!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

In the moment, when one of our kids gets like that, we take them to their bedroom to cool off. And yes, it has involved (with ds, who doesn't have great self-regulatory skills) holding him/holding the door shut until he's able to be more in control. We have a 'you hit - you go' policy in our house - no discussion, the kids are just hauled off to their room. Is it the most GD? Nope. But it's something that I absolutely cannot tolerate, and it needs no discussion. (At least not at ages 3 and 6. For an 18 month old, it would be different. But your son is not 18 months old either.)

After they've calmed down, we reconnect and talk about the issue, but not in the heat of the battle. It's a pretty useless exercise when everyone is riled up.

One thing that struck me about your post:
He was great for one outing during the day, and fell apart during the second. Maybe it's the time of day (morning vs. evening), maybe it's the number of things (breakfast out, out to see grandparents), but I would seriously keep a log of when his outbursts happened to see if you can find a pattern. For a long time, our son had a one outing a day maximum. (And a 2 stop maximum when we were out running errands.)

You might also want to read The Explosive Child.

If this escalates or if you continue to feel overwhelmed, remember there is no shame in seeking out a family counselor or play therapist to help you and your son deal with his obviously powerful emotions. Sometimes we all need a bit of help.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
What do you do?

Occasionally my 4 year old tries to hurt me, I take her by the shoulders, get on her level, look in her eyes, and say in a very serious and quiet voice, "You may not hurt me!"

It hasn't always worked, but it does now. But she's not a very physical person, so please don't be offended if that's advice that is way too basic for your problem!











This is one situation where I would have to be in control. It's my body he's messing with! "Helpless" isn't an option here. I agree with a pp, too about removing him from the situation. For a younger child, I would walk away. But an older child needs to cool off before coming back to the situation.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I feel similarly to Lynn. DD also goes to her room if she becomes this physical. I have very little tolerance for being physically attacked, so this is safer for both of us. Again, she definitely knows the rules and is old enough to know not to hit. She can come out as soon as she's ready to stop. This actually seems to have cut down on it dramatically.

This is also the only thing we send her to her room for.


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## abandbunk (Jan 7, 2006)

Thanks so much for all the suggestions/support, i really appreciate it. It isn't 'tolerated' but i'm not really sure what the heck you are supposed to do, besides trying to keep him and i safe, i'm not sure how much more i could do to make it less 'tolerated' if you kwim, i don't allow him to do this, but i can't make him stop either ? kwim? (and if there is a way PLEASE let me know







i would pay some serious dough for that answer ).

FOr teh past two days we have been working on just staying REALLY on top of things, so that things never get out of hand enuf to where i am having to deal w/it, becuz i can NOT continue this, i mean i simply can't, it takes everything out of me, and makes me so sad (not to mention angry), and it scares me, it scares me he will hurt himself, or me, or property. and it scares me he feels so out of control, (it occurred to me last night does he even realize that he is REALLY hurting me? becuz he laughs, which i find so ODD).

I have been "shadowing" him so that things don't escalate (fights w/his 3 yr old sister etc) and just spending an enormous amount of time w/him, and also not allowing them to play in thier bedrooms alone, and intervening (which i hate doing, becuz i want them to figure it out on thier own, w/o my help) whenever it seems they may be starting to bicker, if it didnt' escalate so quickly i dont' think i would feel the need to step in so quickly, but i swear to goodness he can go from zero to sixy in a matter of moments.

I really need to order that book teh explosive child, it really sounds like it could help him (and he is, that, an explosive child, at times). also in 'shadowing' him for two days straight i can tell you w/absolute certainty his sister is A PITA oh my gosh, i half way don't blame him for being pi$$ed at her 80 percent of them time, i have been constantly having to remind her to give him his space, dont' grab things from him etc, i knew she did that, but i had NO CLUE how much, my goodness.

i normally am not into 'praising' if you kwim, but tonight (and last night) i did, i told him i was really proud of him that he had gone all day w/thrwoing any fits, and that i really enjoyed spending time w/him when he was behaving (not the exact wording, so please don't phsychoanalyze it







) and that it really felt good to have a "good" day, and he did seem happy that i noticed he had "behaved" , and like i said, i hate praising, but it seemed appropriate? any thoughts?


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## abandbunk (Jan 7, 2006)

also forgot to mention we dont' do typical timeouts BUT i willl NOT have him screaming, hitting ect, in the main portion of the house, i don't feel that any of us his sister and dad included need to be around that kind of violent behavior (or the yelling, becuz we do rent, and i think that is unfair for teh upstairs to have to listen to him yelling around in teh living room). i have taken to his room when he yells/kicks or hits, but i dont' leave him in there alone, i stay in teh room usually in front of teh door and tell him that when he calms down we can talk about how he is feeling and leaev the room, but that he can't act like that "out there" but the problem of course is that he is 4 1/2 (and big for his age as well) and finally figured if he couldnt' get past teh door then he should attack the person sitting in front of it, fun i tell you







. he will kick teh door if i close the door (and i leave) so out of utter desperation about a week ago (becuz he was attacking/hitting/kicking me) i told him i was going out on the porch and that i was taking his sister w/me, becuz i didnt feel it was safe to be around him, and that we wouldn' be abused/hit by him (he wasn't hitting his sister just me), i also told him i wasn't "leaving" but just going on teh porch (where he can see me/us) where we could get away from him when he was doing that, so what did he do of course? hit the window @@ so then i felt like property wasn't even safe, talk about stuck between a rock and a hard place, i honeslty felt like there wasn't a thing in teh whole world i could do, luckily that has only happened a couple of times (to that level of drama), but it was just really really horrible







. anyway i'm rambling....i should go to bed, ty again for all the suggestions.


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## bunny07 (Jun 22, 2007)

oh gosh so many like me but right now i am in a better position because my dd till now hasnt gone that far but she started throwing tantrum around and spatting but this http://www.mybaby.com/PlaygroundItem/Item/708 might help..i feel


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## Wendy~ (May 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bunny07* 
oh gosh so many like me but right now i am in a better position because my dd till now hasnt gone that far but she started throwing tantrum around and spatting but this http://www.mybaby.com/PlaygroundItem/Item/708 might help..i feel

I'm not sure I understand how this post helps?? Maybe I am misunderstanding, are you suggesting that the op hits their lo back to show cause and effect??

abandbunk, There was one time when my dd was acting just as violent (with the laughing and everything, I also don't think she really gets that she is hurting us in that moment, when she is not in one of these episodes she totally knows that hitting hurts, kwim?) I was by myself with my infant son at the time. Typically I would hand off the baby and focus my attention on dd and take her to another room if necessary and stay with her til she calmed down enough to talk it through. But this one time I was fearful of my baby's safety, I was also afraid that I was going to lose it on my dd. So I told her that I was going into my bedroom (the only room that has a lock on the door) and closed myself in. I explained that I needed to keep my body safe and the baby safe. Just like I would do for her if someone was trying to hurt her. I sat inside my room right next to the door as she banged on it and kept talking calmly to her, validating, and explaining that I was there for her when she was ready. Everytime she said she was ready I'd open the door and if she was trying to calm down I tried to help her, but if she started to hit me or the baby again I went back to my room. this lasted quite sometime, but she finally was able to gain control of herself and let me hug her and tell her I love her. I don't know if it was the right thing to do. I just knew I had to keep us all safe. I made sure she knew I was not leaving her, that I loved her, and that I wanted to help her.

The best thing for us to try to avoid the episodes, make sure she is not overstimulated, overtired, hungry, etc. We've been doing ok for the last few months, she still can still experience big emotions, but she is finding better ways to deal with them and using more words.


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## abandbunk (Jan 7, 2006)

: bunny07 i'm confused as well, maybe you could elaborate what you are suggesting?

wendy~ ty for your reply, i'm glad to hear he isn't the only one that has actually laughed while doing this, its slightly disconcerting if you kwim







: . i agree that avoidance of the tantrum itself is the best possible solution, somehow, amazingly we are now on day 3 of no "episodes" and i am BEYOND grateful, i have been working my butt of tho to get it







but thats what being a mom is about right lol, hopefully its just temporary becuz my house is starting to pay the price of 100% kid focused days (not really 100% but you kwim). It feels good to be on the same team again, i sometimes forget, how truly lovely he is, when we are having trouble, but i really am delighted by him when he is not acting atrocious  he really is a beautiful human being, i am feeling so grateful to be seeing/feeling that again. AND i realized we weren't having enuf FUN, and last night i suddenly remembered how to play w/3 and 4 year olds again, and it was lovely, we laughed so hard we had tears coming out of our eyes.


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## bunny07 (Jun 22, 2007)

my dd is 3yr old and started throwing tantrums not so bad but she does spat and talk back and stuff like that.. what i meant is that sometimes if we behave with them the same way they do with others,just to show them that their behaviour hurts others then probably it may help. I mean tit for tat does work sometimes.just the other day my dd spilled milk over her while having breakfast and before i could say anything she coldly told me "dont worry mommy you will get over it" i was shocked..no sorry no regret nothing..ofcourse i agree we should try and talk to them though not at that very moment but when they come out of the situation..







:


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## punchy (May 26, 2006)

Have you looked into food sensitivities? Is he more likely to freak out after eating sugary foods, for example? My daughter can not tolerate sugar, and hasn't had to most of her life, but when she does get it (I bought some pure maple sugar while on vacation since it reminded me of my childhood, oops), she is a million times more likely to have a major freak out (read: screaming fit on the interstate in a downpour with low visability). Of course having an annoying little sister may be just as big a trigger, but I thought since it hadn't been suggested I'd throw it out there.

Oh, and Bunny07, you do know this is a GENTLE discipline forum, right? You might save some face by reading the guidelines. Last I checked 'tit for tat' was not part of the GD scope.


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## abandbunk (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *punchy* 
Have you looked into food sensitivities? Is he more likely to freak out after eating sugary foods, for example? My daughter can not tolerate sugar, and hasn't had to most of her life, but when she does get it (I bought some pure maple sugar while on vacation since it reminded me of my childhood, oops), she is a million times more likely to have a major freak out (read: screaming fit on the interstate in a downpour with low visability). Of course having an annoying little sister may be just as big a trigger, but I thought since it hadn't been suggested I'd throw it out there.

Oh, and Bunny07, you do know this is a GENTLE discipline forum, right? You might save some face by reading the guidelines. Last I checked 'tit for tat' was not part of the GD scope.

ty punchy for the ideas, he is actually sensitive to quite a few foods (mainly gluten/wheat, dairy, and corn, and maybe soy (may be just dose related?), if he eats wheat WHOA nelly, it is trouble, that was the biggest indicator for us that he couldn't eat it, and otehr things improved as well when we took him off of it. he doesn't seem hugely affected by sugar, but i would say possibly more sensitive than most kids? and he doestn' really eat sugar (processed) but eats tons of fruit everyday which is obviosly still high in sugar. but it is worth looking at a little more closely ( i noticed he does horribly if he doesn't get enuf protien and too many carbs).

we had another "episode" today, and i am just so feeling lost in how to handle him, i KNEW what i was about to do would "set him off" but i felt like i couldn't not do it either kwim? his sister and him started to be a little too overzealous in there "playing" w/a dinosaur and a pan (dont' ask







) and so i suggested that they stop doing that (playing w/them together) he got mad and i demanded that he keep doing it, i told him that if he couldn't stop playing w/his sister (they were hitting each toy together, sort of like play fighting?) then i was going to take the dinosaur away, well, you can guess what he 'chose" so i went to go take the dinosaur away and he raised his hand over his head and was going to throw the thing at me







i was SHOCKED, so naturally i took the dinosaur away, put it away in teh laundry room and told him we needed to go to his room (to get away from sister) to talk about not throwing things at people, he wouldn't come, and i was pi$$ed since he had just tryed to throw something at me (and tried a second time w/the cushion sitting next to him) so i picked him up and took him to his room so we could talk, altho i admit i KNEW that he would then go into his "episode" so to speak, and of course, he did. SOOOO i feel so stuck, here i know what i did "caused" his tantrum if you kwim, but i dont' feel like i could have ignored said throwing incident either so what COULD i have done differently? that would still "teach" him but NOT cause the tantrum? is there a win win situation? i wish i knew.......


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## punchy (May 26, 2006)

Could you give him more authority over his decision to or not to do something? Can you give him reasonable alternatives? ie, " You can take a new pan and go to your room(or other less punish-y place) with the dinosaur and hit them together there, but not around your sister or me as we are afraid we will get hurt."

And, I can't remember how old your daughter is, but could she be more involved in voicing her concern? Or is it possible that the boy's getting in more 'trouble' than the girl and he's acting out because he feels you're being unfair? Could you be any more diplomatic with the two?

And finally, there was a thread here a while back about creating an 'angry box' for your child to safely express anger. The idea is that when the kid is escalating toward a tantrum, direct them to their box and let them go at it. It may include scrap paper for ripping up; marbles taped in a tin can; and any other tactile things you know he'd like to do in the heat of it. Explain it well to him when he's feeling well, and let him help design and add to it. Maybe it could be in a place where only he had acess to it, so he wouldn't have to worry about little sister invading. It may take a while for him to get the hang of it, but it works well around here.

Oh, and one more thing. You were right to hold your ground even though you knew it would lead to a break down. But could you have been a little quicker in dealing with it before it got to that point?

And, earplugs will not completely erase the sound or tune you out from your child, but they will take the edge off (of you and your daughter).

Quiet thoughts,

nd


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

This is a copy of a recent post of mine about a similar situation. I hope some of it helps.

In the moment, I would deflect his hits, say 'I don't want to be hit. You seem very angry!! I want to help.' I would repeat this and not allow myself to be hit. My experience is that *the calmer I am the quicker the emotions anchor onto my centered-ness*. I've worked to be calm in the moment of my internal emotional reaction to physical space issues. I have a lot of sensitivity to uninvited touch due to childhood hot buttons. Taking a deep breath and restating in my head that "*I* am the adult, I am safe and I can control myself" has been key to de-escalating issues, ime.

Our son is highly sensitive also, which means that too much stimulation overwhelms his ability to filter out the unwanted sensory input. Restaurants are a challenge due to the cacophony of voices, noises and sounds, lights, activity, etc. And crowds amp him up also. So, too many activities without some down time, increase the likelihood of becoming overwhelmed by frustration, hunger, tiredness, etc.

Pat

Quote:

Our son has huge dietary issues related to behavior. We live consensually so he is allowed to eat whatever he wants. But he is agreeable to avoiding dairy, soy, wheat, artificial colors, flavors and preservatives because he feels better when he does. I don't know if you are familiar with "The Feingold Diet"? If you can find or order the book Why Won't My Child Behave? and/or Is This Your Child?, they both talk about children who sound just like yours, just like mine when he eats dairy, too much soy, wheat or artificial ingredients or too much salicylates from natural foods.

It requires vigilant awareness but is worth every bit of effort. Our son goes from 0-100 (well over the sanity limit) approximately 60 minutes after consuming *dairy*. He would become aggressive, hitting, kicking, screaming and it lasts for 1-6 hours depending on quantity of consumption. Same thing with artificial ingredients. Needless to say, we avoid them like the Plague. We have avoided all of these since a very, very early age and he has outgrown many of his food intolerances and behavioral responses. Now he can eat dairy several times a week, wheat daily and soy a few times a week without any reactions. We do try to have a lot of physical outlets for him after consumption though. He is sensory seeking, probably ADHD, and SID, but these are irrelevant labels to us as we homeschool. But in a school situation, I imagine that his physical needs would interfere with sitting for long durations. Anyway, btdt. It can and will get better.









I have learned tons about diet and behavior. Here are some resources.

Here are links to the two books I mentioned:
http://www.feingold.org/bookstore-pg.html
http://www.feingold.org/bookstore-pg.html

Here is a link to "The Feingold Diet" organization. I didn't join and get there list of approved foods that are additive free. My friend did so have seen the info which is helpful. I shop at EarthFare which doesn't have any of the ingredients that they say to avoid. Basically you need to do an elimination diet for a minimum of a week to see a difference. Some people can see a significantly happier child in 24 hours! To completely eliminate dairy you need closer to a week though, 3 weeks ideally. And there is dairy, casein and whey in many processed foods. It is an effort, but so worth it. Our son can negotiate and consider other's needs and honor other's personal boundaries. But he had much harder of a time when he accidently consumed dairy, or artificial vanilla, or nitrates, or some yellow food color, for instance.
http://www.feingold.org/indexx.html

Here is a brief list of the foods to avoid. There are tons of foods, and brands that can be consumed. The list looks daunting. But, you just eliminate all you can and then gradually test by adding one food at a time back to the diet. Many people find a gluten free diet helps. That is a bit more comprehensive than just wheat free. But there are _a lot_ of dairy and wheat substitutes.
http://www.kroger.com/hn/Diet/Feingold_Diet.htm

Here is a thread about "Healing the Gut". Basically, eliminating all the foods that cause intolerances and allowing the gut to heal. There are stickies and links about what to do. I believe this is what has significantly helped our son, in addition to classical homeopathy. We avoided all of the culprit foods for a long time. He is now 5, and can eat most everything except artificial ingredients.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=493103

Here are some concrete suggestions from another thread that I posted on:

1. Fill love tank. See "The Five Love Languages for Children". The author suggests that the five are: acts of service, physical touch, gifts, affirmation, quality time. We generally value all; but there is usually a primary 'love language' and each adult or child feels more full of love, or empty of love, if their love language isn't being "spoken" to them consistently, daily.

2. Eye contact when speaking with child.

3. Validation of feelings. The "How to Talk so Kids will Listen, How to Listen so Kids will Talk" discusses pratical communication skills for increasing the dialogue effectiveness.

4. "Siblings Without Rivalry" helps discuss allowing the "ugly" feelings about a sibling or situation to be voiced and validated. This helps the child work through them so that he can move away from carrying them alone. And then he can gain perspective once these are not such a heavy burden.

5. "The Explosive Child" discusses 'picking your battles'. Basically, it has a "Basket" criteria of degrees of battle. Basket "A" is safety issues. These are critical to health and worth making an issue over. Basket "C" are little things that won't matter tomorrow, next week or next month. These are ignored and dealt with without creating an issue/battle or power struggle.

Basket "B" are the important but negotiable items which need buy-in. Most things are here. But the issue is to determine 'Is this critical to the family's happiness *today* to create a power struggle?' What other ways can this issue be tackled together as a team?

6. Food intolerances: dairy causes aggression in our son. We see his behavior change about one hour after consumption and lasts 1-6 hours depending on quantity consumed. Also, high fructose corn syrup (not sugar), artificial colors: red and yellow. See "The Feingold Diet" on-line.

7. 'Meet the underlying needs' is my mantra. Focus on working to solve the need, rather than focusing on eliminating the behavior.

I strongly and firstly recommend The Explosive Child for tools of "choosing your battles". It can change the dynamics to just essential safety issues, instead of having everything be a battle. I forgot about *high fructose corn syrup*. Ds can NOT consume this at all.







Occasionally he does. Then, we all have a very tough several hours. Eliminate this from your lives. It is seriously associated with violent and aggressive behaviors.

Here are two on-going threads that will help to support you and let you know you are not alone: "My Challenge, My Love". These women will and do understand. They are living your life. Here is your life line. They have BTDT and are helping each other on their path of a peaceful family with a challenging child.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=328627

This thread is "Parenting & Rage". These women have many suggestions on taking care of yourself so that you are not overwhelmed by the work of parenting your child. It is work. They have helped me to recognize how I need to provide self-care to *me*, in addition to caring for everyone else. They remind me how important a calm mama is to a calm family.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=394579

I hope this helps you see a light at the end of the tunnel. Oh, and let me know if you need info about homeopathy. Here is one link: http://www.healing-arts.org/children...homeopathy.htm We use classical homeopathy rather than acute. But, it does help to address the digestive and immunology aspects of food and behavior. I highly recommend considering it. I was leery at first but am evangelical about homeopathy now.









OH, and there are Bach Flower remedies!! These help when nothing else will. You can choose according to symptoms. These are available at any natural food store. Rescue Remedy, Elm, Cherry Plum, Beech are must haves, imo.

http://www.ainsworths.com/remedy/default.aspx

http://www.bachcentre.com/centre/remedies.htm

http://www.bachflower.com/38_Essences.htm

http://www.abchomeopathy.com/c.php/3

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abandbunk* 
is there a win win situation? i wish i knew.......

"Meet the underlying impulse". Let him know what he CAN DO which meet his desire to play dinosaurs: gently, outside, with another dinosaur, with a mountain, "against" an elephant, "against" a stack of books, crashing into a pillow, at a wall of blocks, etc. Redirect the energy to a mutually agreeable situation.

Pat


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## abandbunk (Jan 7, 2006)

i quotes you and bolded my responses, cuz i'm not super fancy w/the copmuter
















Quote:


Originally Posted by *punchy* 
Could you give him more authority over his decision to or not to do something? Can you give him reasonable alternatives? ie, " You can take a new pan and go to your room(or other less punish-y place) with the dinosaur and hit them together there, but not around your sister or me as we are afraid we will get hurt."

*Giving him more authority over his decision is a GREAT idea (DUH! why is it so hard to see your very own situation????), i should have could have offered alternitives, that is super, thank you for the idea, i tend to forget that option the most







.*
And, I can't remember how old your daughter is, but could she be more involved in voicing her concern? Or is it possible that the boy's getting in more 'trouble' than the girl and he's acting out because he feels you're being unfair? Could you be any more diplomatic with the two?

*DD is 3 yrs old, and i she wouldn't voice the concern becuz she likes to wait until he hurts her so she can cry and be "getting him in trouble" if you kwim lol. He does "get into more trouble" becuz he tends to be the aggressor, and has a short temper, and i KNOW she bugs him, and in this 'shadowing' business where i have been spending nearly every minute hanging out w/them i have noticed she is ANNOYING to the point of almost understanding WHY he wants to hurt her so bad, ugh, she is a pest for sure, getting in his space (on purpose), grabbing things from him (then he hits her, or pushes her and guess who "gets in trouble" ....) so in some ways this is true (that he gets "talked to" more often. I KNOW he thinks its unfair, and i admit sometimes it probably really is, but its hard when you can't see every little interaction, and all you know is that he hurt her (again!), it can be very frustrating. i am working VERY hard on being more diplomatic, and i do believe this is helping (altho she isn't too pleased







) but w/this shadowing, of course when i witness her doing these things to him i call her on it, not in a mean way but like "hey, thats not cool, you need to give your brother a little more space, you dont' like it when hes in your face..." or "grabbing isn't ok, you can ask if you can play w/it, but he can say no, when he is done playing w/it you can have a turn".*
And finally, there was a thread here a while back about creating an 'angry box' for your child to safely express anger. The idea is that when the kid is escalating toward a tantrum, direct them to their box and let them go at it. It may include scrap paper for ripping up; marbles taped in a tin can; and any other tactile things you know he'd like to do in the heat of it. Explain it well to him when he's feeling well, and let him help design and add to it. Maybe it could be in a place where only he had acess to it, so he wouldn't have to worry about little sister invading. It may take a while for him to get the hang of it, but it works well around here.

*BRILLIANT idea, i love love love that, and i think he will too, that is priceless, ty, we will set one up tomarrow!*
Oh, and one more thing. You were right to hold your ground even though you knew it would lead to a break down. But could you have been a little quicker in dealing with it before it got to that point?

*i feel like i was (quick) in this particular instance, becuz i was catching it before it got truly violent, BUT i guess i need to be stepping in even sooner, is what i'm learning, i want so badly for them to be able to work it out, on thier own, and i always thought it was better for siblings to have as much of thier own relationship as possible, and to fix thier own squabbles (i am an only child btw) but i am finding that when i leave it to them, someone gets hurt, if not two someones, but i wish i knew what the balance was, i do want them to be able to play together w/o someone sitting right there by thier side all the time kwim, but i guess at least temporarily that won't be happening.*
And, earplugs will not completely erase the sound or tune you out from your child, but they will take the edge off (of you and your daughter).

*i agree, earplugs sound like a GREAT idea, i think it could help me to think more rationally as well, i have an "issue" w/loud noises, and so not only is his "misbehavior" triggering me, the sheer LOUDNESS of it, just about makes my brain explode, which of course doesn't help me to think rationally.
THANK YOU for your great post, there are so many many things i can use out of it, i truly do appreciate it







:







*
Quiet thoughts,

nd


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## abandbunk (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
This is a copy of a recent post of mine about a similar situation. I hope some of it helps.

In the moment, I would deflect his hits, say 'I don't want to be hit. You seem very angry!! I want to help.' I would repeat this and not allow myself to be hit. My experience is that *the calmer I am the quicker the emotions anchor onto my centered-ness*. I've worked to be calm in the moment of my internal emotional reaction to physical space issues. I have a lot of sensitivity to uninvited touch due to childhood hot buttons. Taking a deep breath and restating in my head that "*I* am the adult, I am safe and I can control myself" has been key to de-escalating issues, ime.

Our son is highly sensitive also, which means that too much stimulation overwhelms his ability to filter out the unwanted sensory input. Restaurants are a challenge due to the cacophony of voices, noises and sounds, lights, activity, etc. And crowds amp him up also. So, too many activities without some down time, increase the likelihood of becoming overwhelmed by frustration, hunger, tiredness, etc.

Pat

WOW, wow wow, so much good stuff, but i have to say, teh BEST thing of all, is that thread, the my challenge my love, SOOOO what i needed, i cried when i read it







that hit me so hard, i needed that bad, i feel so much relief in a way, for one to know "im not alone" and two, to feel like there is hope (hope of ME figuring it out, not necessarily of him changing







).

I so badly want him to be happy, and i feel like i'm failing him, and in turn his sister (becuz i devote so much time and attention on him i feel like she gets left in the dust sometimes, altho luckily she is pretty happy go lucky and doesnt *seem* to mind as much as i think she should...). Seriously, that thread was/is life altering for me.

I have a totally different perspective of him now, i hate to admit there for a while (a long while) i have been feeling like he is a burden, a problem to be solved







(really mad at myself about that), and to look at it, from a different point of view, as he being a blessing, and special, so yeah, he has more trouble w/life than some people, but how cool that we get share this journey together, and i can help him (if i ever figure out how ) and my gosh, how much i and he are learning in the process, its been REALLY REALLY hard ,hardest thing i have ever gone thru, but i realized, him and i have always had a unique relationship, we are sort of "connected" and on the same wavelength so to speak, and that is another huge thing i realized while reading that thread, is that my own attitude/emotions/feelings etc have SO much impact on him, and maybe that is why i'm so mad? mad becuz he is simply mirroring the struggles i have w/myself? does that make sense at all? that he is sensitive, and basically he seems to feel everything/everybody more strongly, so i can't really fake it and put on a happy face and mask my frustrations/stress etc, he feels it, whether i want him to or not, and i feel like w/his outlandish behavior, it is simply a symptom of my own issues? boy, i am having trouble articulating what i am trying to say, but anyway, HUGE mental progress in "figuring it out".

Also, i realized, that i have been trying to make him not have trouble, not have issues so to speak, if that makes sense, like i have known forever that he needs extra help, he gets easily over stimulated, and needs quite a bit extra care, but i think unintentionally, i have tried to push the idea out of my mind, that he is challenging, tried to make it not be true, tried to "fix" him so that he could be "normal" (not that he isnt' but you kwim) and this has caused him and i a lot of uneeded stress and hearthache, in a way its relieving, to allow myself, and him, to take that extra care, and time, and attention, and say you know what, he needs it, and i am his caregiver, his mom, and its up to me to provide what he needs, even if it means he needs more than the "average" child.

i feel very free in thinking about that, that w/accepting that he is more challenging, has a harder time, that i can live our lives accordingly, that he isn't "doing it on purpose" or "trying to pi$$ me off" that he really does struggle, and shame on me for not admitting it sooner, so that he could more easily get the help he needs from me (w/o having outbursts to prove it), i almost feel like w/this knowledge, looking back, he has been trying to tell me for a long time, and i havn't been listening, or i've been trying not to hear, as if i didnt' admit it, it wouldn't be true. And truth be told i dont' think he has any major "issues" i have quite extensively looked up autism and all the related disorders online thinking he had one or another, and altho he has some things that qualify for some "disorders" he really doesn't seem to be "disordered" in a major enuf way to warrent therapy etc, he just needs extra love and care, and thank you for that thread, i now feel like i can give it







.


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## punchy (May 26, 2006)

Hi again,

I'm glad to see you're getting so much good advice fro the other mama's. Please remember that you are a superb and loving mother to be investing so much energy in finding peace in your home. With this kind of effort, you will surely succeed.

All the very best to you and your family.

Oh, and please remember me when it's my turn for advice; I'm sure you will have a lot.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abandbunk* 
he just needs extra love and care, and thank you for that thread, i now feel like i can give it







.


We _all_ need extra love and care. Be sure to give yourself some too!









Pat


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abandbunk* 
I so badly want him to be happy, and i feel like i'm failing him, and in turn his sister (becuz i devote so much time and attention on him i feel like she gets left in the dust sometimes, altho luckily she is pretty happy go lucky and doesnt *seem* to mind as much as i think she should...).

You aren't failing him. What a lucky boy he is indeed, to have a mother so dedicated to helping him, who loves him so fiercely, who will not give up on him. That he seems unhappy, that he has challenges and struggles, is not an indication of your failure. Perhaps you've misunderstood, perhaps you haven't know what it is he needs, perhaps it's hard to figure out exactly what will help him, perhaps you have had fears that have in the past prevented you from responding in some way that might have been helpful to him, perhaps you haven't yet figured out how to balance his needs with his sister's, perhaps, perhaps....this doesn't mean you have failed. Parenting is a learning process, just as childhood is.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abandbunk* 
i feel very free in thinking about that, that w/accepting that he is more challenging, has a harder time, that i can live our lives accordingly, that he isn't "doing it on purpose" or "trying to pi$$ me off" that he really does struggle, and shame on me for not admitting it sooner, so that he could more easily get the help he needs from me (w/o having outbursts to prove it)

No. NOT shame on you. Never shame. This is part of being a human mother, realizing that we have made a mistake or misunderstood. His outbursts are likely telling you something, but that doesn't mean that his outbursts are your fault. That you may learn to respond to them better and understand them better doesn't mean that they are your fault or that you have somehow failed up until now.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abandbunk* 
and that is another huge thing i realized while reading that thread, is that my own attitude/emotions/feelings etc have SO much impact on him, and maybe that is why i'm so mad? mad becuz he is simply mirroring the struggles i have w/myself? does that make sense at all? that he is sensitive, and basically he seems to feel everything/everybody more strongly, so i can't really fake it and put on a happy face and mask my frustrations/stress etc, he feels it, whether i want him to or not, and i feel like w/his outlandish behavior, it is simply a symptom of my own issues?

Speaking from my own experience only, I find that my intense emotional reactions can make things worse or my staying calm can prevent things from getting worse, but I would never say that my child's difficult behavior is a symptom of my own issues.

Is it at all possible that his behaviors, though he may feel more stress or his emotions may become more intense when your emotions/reactions are intense, are simply indicators of his own sensitivity, intensity, and difficulty with certain skills? Children do not all develop at the same rate, and my intense, sensitive, intelligent child also has difficulty modulating her emotions, staying/getting calm in order to think and communicate, identifying and articulating her feelings, problem-solving in times of stress, and shifting gears. She has a lot of anxiety that keeps her in a state of stress, making it harder for her to think. The end result of all this is that even at the most minor of provocations she may explode-screaming, hitting or having a raging tantrum. By realizing this and focusing on helping her learn skills (like relaxing, staying calm, expressing herself, problem-solving), and by taking into consideration her sensivitites and intensity (and helping her cope with and manage these), we help her have fewer explosions. You may find a book called The Explosive Child helpful. Also, The Highly Sensitive Child is a good one.

Definitely, as Pat said, it's so important to be gentle with yourself too. You cannot give your child what you don't have.

"When you plant lettuce, if it does not grow well, you don't blame the lettuce. You look into the reasons it is not doing well. It may need fertilizer, or more water, or less sun. You never blame the lettuce. Yet if we have problems with our friends or our family, we blame the other person. But if we know how to take care of them, they will grow well, like lettuce. Blaming has no positive effect at all, nor does trying to persuade using reason and arguments. That is my experience. No blame, no reasoning, no argument, just understanding. If you understand, and you show that you understand, you can love, and the situation will change." -Thich Nhat Hanh

*Remember, you are the lettuce just as your child is. No blame for you, only learning, understanding, compassion.

"I offer you that reassuring advice given to me by my
daughter, that nobody's perfect, to remember that anything that's
worth doing is worth doing poorly. And the job of parenting, of
course, is extremely worth doing, but we're going to do it poorly at
times. If we're going to be brutal with ourselves when we're not
perfect parents, our children are going to suffer for that.

I often tell parents that I'm working with that hell is having
children and thinking there's such a thing as a good parent. That if
every time we're less than perfect, we're going to blame ourselves
and attack ourselves, our children are not going to benefit from
that. So the goal I would suggest is not to be perfect parents, it's
to become progressively less stupid parents -- by learning from each
time that we're not able to give our children the quality of
understanding that they need, that we're not able to express
ourselves honestly. In my experience, each of these times usually
means that we're not getting the emotional support we need as
parents, in order to give our children what they need.

We can only really give in a loving way to the degree that we are
receiving similar love and understanding. So that's why I strongly
recommend that we look at how we might create a supportive community
for ourselves among our friends and others, who can give us the
understanding we need to be present to our children in a way that
will be good for them and good for us." -Marshall Rosenberg, author of _Nonviolent Communication_

*That love and understanding is something you can give yourself, in addition to receiving support from others.


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## sufradi (Aug 8, 2006)

i don't have any children that are quite that old, but even with a two-year old i find that usually there's something deeper behind fits or violent tendencies than whatever is visible or obvious ( sibling wouldn't share, not getting something that the child wants, etc. ). i can often calm the situation down and try and find out what's going on in my kid's mind. is he/she feeling desperate or unnoticed? did something leading up to the events make them feel unloved or hurt their esteem? it seems like an obvious solution, but really trying to get at what's bothering the child can be very helpful.


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## abandbunk (Jan 7, 2006)

sledg~ thank you thank you thank you. i can't tell you how much your words meant to me, really really a lot, thank you







.

As far as placing blame, i didnt' word it very well the other night ( i was tired and stressed) but i *think* what i mean is that my moods affect him. and i feel like we spiral in a negative cycle? like if i am in a foul mood, or he is, the other one mimics the other, and just increases the negativity? so i feel like if i was more postive in my reactions/responses/moods then he would be too? instead of cycling into negativity we could feed off our postive moods? i hope i am making sense, i guess i mean if i am more zen, he is, and if i was more relaxed/zen in my reaction to him, he would in turn be more relaxed/zen, its like i almost need to let him off the hook a bit? love him no matter what? stop being so hard on him, as if he is CHOOSING to piss me off??? i am taking his behavior to personally, and i am unhappy in some areas of my life (fitness, house not being clean enough, never getting enuf sleep, by choice etc) and i feel like my own insecurities/anxieties deflect onto him? I just started reading 'raising your spirited child' and i have to say, i have not cut him enuf slack so to speak, and i feel very guilty over this, but anyway, i just have to know that i can change now, forgive myslef for not knowing sooner, and move forward in growth, for him and i. and in the past few days, w/my different attitude, trying to let go of resenting him, adn seeing him thru a new set of eyes, w/him having more challenges, has made his and my life so much easier, he is doing so much better, and so am i, and i have to say its literally exciting to be on this new path, of me accepting him for who he is, and showing him TRUE unconditional love (which i thought i was, but upon reflection, i wasn't, not TRULY). He is a beautiful boy, in so many ways, and i truly feel like he is my gift, and i have already grown and learned so much in knowing him, i feel so lucky, to be his mom. alright enuf corny stuff, i just wanted to give you a heartfelt thank you, you said some things that really helped me to see things differently, you have a lot of wisdom, thank you


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abandbunk* 
As far as placing blame, i didnt' word it very well the other night ( i was tired and stressed) but i *think* what i mean is that my moods affect him. and i feel like we spiral in a negative cycle? like if i am in a foul mood, or he is, the other one mimics the other, and just increases the negativity? so i feel like if i was more postive in my reactions/responses/moods then he would be too? instead of cycling into negativity we could feed off our postive moods? i hope i am making sense, i guess i mean if i am more zen, he is, and if i was more relaxed/zen in my reaction to him, he would in turn be more relaxed/zen, its like i almost need to let him off the hook a bit? love him no matter what? stop being so hard on him, as if he is CHOOSING to piss me off??? i am taking his behavior to personally, and i am unhappy in some areas of my life (fitness, house not being clean enough, never getting enuf sleep, by choice etc) and i feel like my own insecurities/anxieties deflect onto him?

Ah, I see. BTDT. I get it. I think you're onto something very, very helpful here. Yk, I find actual Zen practice helpful for these very reasons. And there's a really neat little book, a very quick and easy read, that I've found very helpful called _Time Out For Parents: A Guide To Compassionate Parenting_ by Cheri Huber. It's written by a zen teacher, and it's not a book about discipline techniques but a book about managing our own inner state and nurturing ourselves so that we are free to be calmer, gentler, more compassionate parents.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abandbunk* 
I just started reading 'raising your spirited child' and i have to say, i have not cut him enuf slack so to speak, and i feel very guilty over this, but anyway, i just have to know that i can change now, forgive myslef for not knowing sooner, and move forward in growth, for him and i.

This is true. I think there's room for regret and some healthy guilt (yk, the kind that just lets us know we've screwed up a bit). The key is to not dwell in it and let it become this shame that holds us back. Forgiveness and letting go are so important, so that we can learn and move on to grow more.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abandbunk* 
and in the past few days, w/my different attitude, trying to let go of resenting him, adn seeing him thru a new set of eyes, w/him having more challenges, has made his and my life so much easier, he is doing so much better, and so am i, and i have to say its literally exciting to be on this new path, of me accepting him for who he is, and showing him TRUE unconditional love (which i thought i was, but upon reflection, i wasn't, not TRULY). He is a beautiful boy, in so many ways, and i truly feel like he is my gift, and i have already grown and learned so much in knowing him, i feel so lucky, to be his mom.

This is wonderful! I'm happy for you.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Excellent thread!

Just a quick plug for Feingold. My kids after fruit are SCARY! The laughing, freaking out, impervious to pain, violent, aggressive, disconnected, unable to focus or make eye contact, insomnia, etc.

From GRAPES! Grapes! Who would think??

Google salicylates (and god I hope I spelled that right!) and feingold and you will be amazed at how many kids react this way. There are threads here at MDC, too.

Take that out of the diet and you can't believe that you have a different child. Night and day.

Hang in there!!!


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