# I need to vent about my friend



## Grace and Granola (Oct 15, 2005)

I have a friend, we're pretty close, not bff's but close, and I babysit her kids during the day while she and her husband work. I'm with them from about 8:30 until 5. They are girls ages 3 and 6. I really like my friend, really. But sometimes I just can't be ok with her attitude about parenting. And I'll admit that I haven't experienced being a working mother, so maybe it's easy for me to pass judgment. But my friend will often pick up her kids and then sit and chat with me for a while after. She says hi to the kids very enthusiastically and then shoos them away so we can talk. I can see the kids just itching to be with her. To hug her and sit on her lap and tell her about their day. She complains about her 6yo being "clingy" and tells her to get off and go play. Her husband often works a second job at night and on those nights she will ask to hang out and have dinner with us because she can't handle (her words) being by herself with the girls. FROM 5:30 TO 8:30!! She is such a confident, fun and outgoing person, I just can't fathom that she wouldn't be able to manage for three hours. And that's the other thing. It's summer and we are doing very active things and it's hot, so the kids really need and want a nap. I don't let any of the kids sleep past 3, so they usually get about 1.5 hour nap. Well, apparently, sometimes this makes the kids stay up an extra hour, so she doesn't want me to let them have naps. So, she wants me to deal with cranky kids all afternoon so she doesn't have to be with them an extra hour at night. When I have a rough day with all the kids, she often comments about how she doesn't know how I can do this every day.

So the real kicker is today, my friend had to go on a business trip for three days. Her husband had to work tonight until 9. So, I suggested the kids just spend the night since they will be right back here in the morning. The kids had been asking for a sleepover and I thought I would try it, knowing it could be rough, and even terrible!







It was the 3yo's first time sleeping at someone else's house. So, since either of the girls often start asking for their mom or dad around 4pm....when we were eating dinner, I thought I would send her a text just saying all is well. I got no reply. So, we actually had a really great day. Dinner and bedtime went well and although the kids stayed up late, it was a success! During bedtime, the kids' dad called to say goodnight and make plans for tomorrow, which I thought was totally sweet and thoughtful. My friend didn't call, text or email. I also sent her a little email note telling about what we did all day and how it went and attached a couple of cute pictures of the sleepover. No reply.

I'm just frustrated and confused. Aside from the lack of parenting, my friend's husband does ALL of the housework and all of the cooking, except for crap out of a can. If this were a stranger I would have all sorts of things to say about this woman! But she's my friend, I like her, but I do not get this attitude about parenting. I know there are women out there who choose to work because they feel like they couldn't handle doing the sahm thing, and I get that. But what about after work and when you're on trips? I'm with my kids constantly, but when they go to grandma's, which they've done a million times, I still want to call at the end of the day to see how their day went.

And believe me when I say that I am NOT that sahm that has everything under control. My house is frequently unclean and I'm very often frazzled by squabbling children by the time she gets to my house. So no, I am not holier than though trying to mak her out to be incompetent! I don't want to be judgmental, so I'm venting here instead of out loud to a person IRL!!


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

You totally have your right to your feelings and reactions to your friend's parenting. For me though, from what you said, I don't really see the big deal as long as her kids seem fine and like they're getting their needs met (or even doing better than just having their needs met). Sure I'd be calling and texting to talk to my girls and make sure all was well if that was me, but unless you actually think the girls feel neglected or sad or it impacts them negatively, I don't really see the big deal.

But since you mostly said you just want to vent, go for it!


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

hmmm. I'm sorry you're in this position, I would politely decline giving up afternoon naps but otherwise you are sol in this situation. If she has other redeeming qualities
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grace and Granola (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
You totally have your right to your feelings and reactions to your friend's parenting. For me though, from what you said, I don't really see the big deal as long as her kids seem fine and like they're getting their needs met (or even doing better than just having their needs met). Sure I'd be calling and texting to talk to my girls and make sure all was well if that was me, but unless you actually think the girls feel neglected or sad or it impacts them negatively, I don't really see the big deal.

But since you mostly said you just want to vent, go for it!









Thank you for affirming my right to vent







Yeah, this stuff is not like a deal breaker or anything, just annoying. I guess it's one of those "to each their own," but it's one that I don't get.


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## LilacMama (Aug 18, 2008)

I struggle with depression and I act like your friend does when I'm depressed. Just a thought. It's great that she has a baby-sitter like you!


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## alfabetsoup (Jun 13, 2005)

If your friend were the husband would you be so upset about her behavior? It sounds like the husband is the dominant parent and housekeeper in their relationship. Sounds like your friend is doing what she needs to do to get by, maybe parenthood was not all she expected it to be.

WRT the naps, I am a SAHM BUT if I worked and told my caregiver not to let my children nap and they did anyway, I would be LIVID. It has a knock-on effect that's pretty awful, here's what happens if DD1 (4yrs) has a nap: she doesn't go to bed til 10 or so (so there's my evening gone) and then sleeps badly and has to be coaxed out of bed to get to school on time. Our morning would be horrendous, full of tears and whining and more of the same after school. She'd be wiped by dinner time and end up in bed by 6:30, then wake up at 5:30am and want to have a nap, which I would have to veto. It would probably take 2 days to recover our schedule. If you are her paid caregiver, you really should respect her wishes.


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## alfabetsoup (Jun 13, 2005)

Also, perhaps her job is quite stressful and she needs to decompress when she finishes--just half an hour without any demands, and that's why she wants to chat with you while her kids play.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Just a suggestion. When the kids are tired and cranky in the afternoon, in lou of a nap, perhaps some quiet play time or a (gasp) movie. Just a thought. Some kids can recharge with just some RR rather then actual sleep.


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## momtoTnT (Dec 15, 2004)

I have a friend like this - but it is my bff, and it has started to impact our relationship - we both work, and I'm struggling with not being judgemental because "I know what it's like", ykwim? You totally have a right to vent. I, personally, can't imagine not calling my kids if I were to have to be away from them - my friend never calls. I asked her why, and she said it makes it harder for her dd - when they just "disappear" she's fine. When they call to check in, she has a very hard time settling down (she's 7).

I do agree with pp's though on napping - if she doesn't want them too, I wouldn't nap them. Our DCP has moved to naps a few times a week, which works well for us and for her - something to consider? Or, can you nap your kids, but let hers stay up (our DCP always does this - some kids never nap, like my DS, while some always do, like my DD).

I think parenting differences in friendships issues are so hard.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Grace and Granola* 
So the real kicker is today, my friend had to go on a business trip for three days. Her husband had to work tonight until 9. So, I suggested the kids just spend the night since they will be right back here in the morning. The kids had been asking for a sleepover and I thought I would try it, knowing it could be rough, and even terrible!







It was the 3yo's first time sleeping at someone else's house. So, since either of the girls often start asking for their mom or dad around 4pm....when we were eating dinner, I thought I would send her a text just saying all is well. I got no reply. So, we actually had a really great day. Dinner and bedtime went well and although the kids stayed up late, it was a success! During bedtime, the kids' dad called to say goodnight and make plans for tomorrow, which I thought was totally sweet and thoughtful. My friend didn't call, text or email. I also sent her a little email note telling about what we did all day and how it went and attached a couple of cute pictures of the sleepover. No reply.

It could be that she was tied up when she received your text (it is a business trip), and by the time she was available to reply - it was late. I don't text people after the hour I would call them - I use my cell as an alarm, so the volume is up enough that a text would wake me. So I don't do it to others, in case it is a similar situation. Just a thought.


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## reignbelle (Feb 13, 2010)

For napping id just say the kids are too cranky when you don't let them nap. If you don't want to deal with cranky kids and she doesn't want naps then the kids need a new sitter. You don't have to give in because she's paying you just know that she may have to find someone else.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

It could be depression.

I am also a working mother with two girls, mine are ages 6 and 3. While I can not, of course, explain your friend's feelings maybe I can help explain some of the feelings I have and you can see if this relates to how she handles things

There is just so much to do at the end of the day that I can totally see how if a friend watched my kids I'd be tempted to hang and chat with her as opposed to go home and cram everything that needs to be done into the small window before bedtime. I do it because it has to get done, but if I was overwhelmed or feeling depressed I'd have even more reason to want to ignore reality.

I can't stand when my kids try to climb all over me when I first get off work, especially my 7 year old. She is just too big and it irritates me. I need to decompress. I'd like to do it on the couch, but I can do it by cooking too. Yesterday my 7 year old came and snuggled against me and started asking to 'help.' Under any other circumstances I have fun cooking with the kids, but not dinner time on a work day. She knows this, and I told her to "Beat it."

I love going on business trips. I have two a year. I get a big bed and room and bathroom all to myself. I get a TV. I dont' have to worry about cleaning or someone taking it as an invitation to nurse every single time I sit down. I also don't have cell phone service at one of the hotels where we stay. Not saying that's what happened here.

You have a right to set a schedule and stick to it at your childcare but she needs to know this. Could you compromise and push nap back a half hour or an hour? I can't imagine telling my daycare that my dd wasn't going to nap anymore. They'd tell me to find another daycare.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Of course you have the right to vent and to feel as you do. It can be really disturbing to be on the observing side of something that you don't "get". Especially since, by definition, you are only seeing the partial picture.

On the practical side ofw hat you have said -- I would negotiate on the nap thing. Is there an alternative she would accept? Can you make naps earlier? Do your kids still need a nap and you can use that as an 'excuse" for enforced (gently) quiet time? I definitely would make sure she is OK with what you propose, but you should be able to come up with something that works for both of you.

For the pick-up, maybe suggest she take 5 minutes to reconnect with the kids while you deal with yours and then you guys can chat for a few minutes?

In the larger picture, I too struggle with depression and anxiety and it effects my ability to parent the way I would like to. Luckily my kids are old enough now that when we get home I can disappear onto the computer for a little while after we walk in the door and just hide to decompress from work and geer up for home. That's my hardest part of the day, by far. When they were littler and needed my attention immediately after getting home from daycare/preschool, it used to make my skin crawl. Literally. I had to fight the urge to yell and scream and lash out. Far better to spend a few minutes chatting with a friend (or now playing a computer game) than to take that out on the kids who don't understand or deserve that type of reaction. Or to take my out at the time, which usually involved more wine than was good for me. Thank god I have a DH who completely understands what I need at the end of the day and could take some of the pressure off.

So there may be more going on than you know, or even she realizes. Some of us probably aren't the best choices for parents and we cope the best we can. She is so lucky to have a friend who can help and the kids are really lucky to have such a caring sitter.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

I have been a SAHM, a WOHM, and somewhere in-between (we're homeschoolers, but I WOH).

I work in one of the busiest restaurants in the city, and if everyone started pawing at me the minute I got home, I would be very crabby. I need some quiet time to recharge when I get home. Waitstaff do not generally get breaks. Often, we don't have time to eat, either. When I get home, I usually want food and solitude for a little while.

Conversely, if your friend has some sort of desk job where she works alone most of the time, she might just need to chat with a grownup for a little while. Going from an isolated cube to taking care of small children can be lonesome.

I love my kids and enjoy their company. But I have gone away on work trips, and I didn't call them every single day. Some days I was too busy, and didn't get a chance until after their bedtime. Some days, I *gasp* was off having fun and lost track of time. When my kids were little, I didn't have a cell phone. Interestingly enough, they were secure enough in their dad's care that they didn't fall apart emotionally because of a missed phone call.

I would try to find some sort of middle-ground on the nap issue, although I don't see how a 6yo would need a daily nap....?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alfabetsoup* 
If your friend were the husband would you be so upset about her behavior?

Sending the kids off to play after being away from them all day instead of interacting with them? Not being able to handle being the main parent for 3 hours? Letting the spouse, who is also working full-time, handle all the housework? Not calling/email while on a business trip with phone and computer access?

Heck yeah I'd be upset at a husband who acted like that. I'd tell him to man up and be a father already.

I bet a dad like that would call spending time with his own children "babysitting."


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evergreen* 
It could be depression.

I am also a working mother with two girls, mine are ages 6 and 3. While I can not, of course, explain your friend's feelings maybe I can help explain some of the feelings I have and you can see if this relates to how she handles things

There is just so much to do at the end of the day that I can totally see how if a friend watched my kids I'd be tempted to hang and chat with her as opposed to go home and cram everything that needs to be done into the small window before bedtime. I do it because it has to get done, but if I was overwhelmed or feeling depressed I'd have even more reason to want to ignore reality.

I can't stand when my kids try to climb all over me when I first get off work, especially my 7 year old. She is just too big and it irritates me. I need to decompress. I'd like to do it on the couch, but I can do it by cooking too. Yesterday my 7 year old came and snuggled against me and started asking to 'help.' Under any other circumstances I have fun cooking with the kids, but not dinner time on a work day. She knows this, and I told her to "Beat it."

I love going on business trips. I have two a year. I get a big bed and room and bathroom all to myself. I get a TV. I dont' have to worry about cleaning or someone taking it as an invitation to nurse every single time I sit down. I also don't have cell phone service at one of the hotels where we stay. Not saying that's what happened here.

You have a right to set a schedule and stick to it at your childcare but she needs to know this. Could you compromise and push nap back a half hour or an hour? I can't imagine telling my daycare that my dd wasn't going to nap anymore. They'd tell me to find another daycare.

My girls are teens now, but the age difference is the same. This is exactly how I felt when my kids were that age, too. I think most people need time to decompress when they get home from work. My job can be pretty stressful, and I really need some time to "come down" and make the transition.

And oh I hear you about the business trips. Lying in the bathtub reading a book in the glorious silence







In ways it was like a mini vacation.

My DH does most of the housework too. However, I do all of the accounting, bill paying, investment planning, food shopping, etc. Every family splits the chores in the way that suits them best.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

I think you expressed yourself pretty well. You have very different priorities and you have a hard time understanding hers. That's ok. For what it is worth, I am more in your position and I have trouble understanding that side of things too. I had children because I fanatically wanted to have kids and hang out with them so I just 'don't get' why other people feel differently. Why have kids if you don't want to spend lots of time with them? It's... hard. It's hard not to judge. It's hard to be loving and accepting of people who make very different choices. You aren't a bad person for having mixed feelings. However, if you want to continue this as a working relationship as well as a friendship you probably are going to have to find a way to be ok with her having a completely different approach to life. Otherwise it might be hard for you to be supportive/friendly and you will start actually acting like you judge her and your friendship will be out the window.

I have a lot of sympathy for you. I hope you find a way to feel ok with stuff.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
I had children because I fanatically wanted to have kids and hang out with them so I just 'don't get' why other people feel differently. Why have kids if you don't want to spend lots of time with them?

I had my first because of a birth control failure. I had not planned to be a mother at 21. I'd always had the idea that when I had children (sometime off in the distant future) it would be when I was able to be a SAHP.

Also, I was active duty Navy at the time, so just quitting my job and hanging out with my kid was not an option.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
Why have kids if you don't want to spend lots of time with them? It's... hard. It's hard not to judge. It's hard to be loving and accepting of people who make very different choices.

Not to thread-jack, but I have been struggling with this same question lately. Neighbors of ours had the hardest time getting pregnant. She went through all sorts of treatments and miscarriages and FINALLY had a son. And promptly hired a nanny. Then went through the same thing for another year, then had a daughter, and hired another nanny (Those are not typical in my area, it usually means you are of the white collar and above income bracket) They both have businesses, are VERY wealthy, are NEVER EVER HOME, and the nanny lives there 24/7. I JUST.DONT.GETIT. Why go through all that to have someone else raise your kids? Baffles me!

That said, i work full time. When I am on my way to pick up my boys in the afternoons, sometimes I think my heart might BURST before I get there from excitment to see them.







Then I might let the older one sit on a chair and help me cook while the little one is at my feat. Am I always like this? NO WAY! All I am saying is, Everyone is different. It takes all kinds.


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## Grace and Granola (Oct 15, 2005)

Thank you all. every one of you! I have to say I'm surprised more people on an Attachment Parenting focused board seem so ok with this detached parenting style. Believe me, I get that working moms need the decompression time. And the thing with not wanting to deal with the kids for three hours at night, I would understand that if she had a ton of housework and cooking to do on top of it, I wouldn't want to go home either. The point I was trying to make about her husband doing all the housework, was not to make this a gender role issue, but to say that all she has to do when she goes home a couple nights a week is be.with.her.kids. And yes, if this were the husband I'm sure the women on here would have something to say!

The part that bugs me the most is that after work, if she needs to decompress, maybe she needs to do that before she comes to get them. These girls have been away from their parents for 9 hours. Many days, they start weeping around 4:00 that they want their mom and dad. I just can't imagine being that 6yo and craving mommy's hugs and so badly wanting to tell her about her day and have her mom say, GO AWAY.

the nap thing isn't really an issue, it was just me venting about the fact that the ONLY reason her having a nap at my house is an issue is because it means mom has to be with and deal with her for an extra hour. And this 6yo ASKS ME for a nap! I enforce quiet time at my house where each kid is in a separate room. The 4 and 6yo have books and other activities, I do not force them to sleep. But about 8 out of 10 times when I go to check on her she's asleep. To me, she's telling us she needs a nap. And I hate that I have to do whatever it takes to keep the child awake. And then she's crying at 4 because she wants her mom who will promptly ignore her in an hour and a half.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
Why have kids if you don't want to spend lots of time with them? It's... hard. It's hard not to judge.

It is unfortunately very difficult to know what/how you will react to children until you have them. And the way you react to an infant or toddler doesn't necessarily predict your response to a preschooler. Finally, some of us have children knowing full well that our husband's want them more than we do and its a compromise -- "I'll have them and do the best I can but I am going to need lots and lots of help from you to make this work."


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## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

Home childcare is T.O.U.G.H. I definitely understand the need to vent.

What always gets me is when parents tell me they need to bring their kids to me even when the parent has a day off, so that "they can get things done around the house." I understand once in a while, but one of my parents works four days a week, and brings her DD to me five days so that she can have a day to herself. I am pretty sure it is only jealousy on my part, but it really irks me. I would LOVE to have a day to myself to get my house in order but I always have their kids running around.

My view is this - if you WOH you don't have as much time to get housework done. But at the very least your house isn't really any dirtier at 6pm than it was at 8am when you left it, because nobody is home. My house could be pristine at 7am before the kids arrive but will be completely destroyed by 6pm when they are all out the door. So I end up with just as little time to clean up as the WOH mom does, but have way more cleaning to do. So I find it frustrating when parents complain to me that they can't get anything done with their one kid at home - try six!!

At the same time, this is my job and I am grateful for the income and they are paying me to take care of their kids. But I too need to vent myself every once in a while.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

BUT if I worked and told my caregiver not to let my children nap and they did anyway, I would be LIVID.
Having had a home childcare myself, I can say that in a daycare situation where it isn't a nanny at your home, you kinda have to deal with your children being on the same schedule as the other children in the house. When I had eight children during the day, I wouldn't have moved lunchtime or naptime because a parent wanted to be accomodated. (Obviously if a child was tired, I would let them nap regardless of the time.)


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I understand that she needs to decompress after work but I'd gather you do too after your day of work. Taking care of children that aren't your own is a job and it's a hard one too (ime). I would be so tapped out by the end of the day and having to socialize and not get to decompress myself made the job so much harder for me. I got the attitude that I was already at home with mine so what's one more...well one more was a hell of a lot! And some people (including the child's parents) still didn't consider me a working mom.
You work full time too just like your friend does and her needs to decompress shouldn't surpass yours. I would feel put upon and need to vent as well.


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## BarnMomma (Dec 12, 2008)

I agree with the frustration but I have one question...

How do you not let a child nap? I mean, if a child is tired and their little body is telling them they need to rest, how do you keep that from happening? My little son has fallen asleep at the kitchen table while eating on days when he's resisted napping but needed one. I just can't fathom how you keep a tired child awake?


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *just_lily* 
My view is this - if you WOH you don't have as much time to get housework done. But at the very least your house isn't really any dirtier at 6pm than it was at 8am when you left it, because nobody is home. My house could be pristine at 7am before the kids arrive but will be completely destroyed by 6pm when they are all out the door. So I end up with just as little time to clean up as the WOH mom does, but have way more cleaning to do. So I find it frustrating when parents complain to me that they can't get anything done with their one kid at home - try six!!

At the same time, this is my job and I am grateful for the income and they are paying me to take care of their kids. But I too need to vent myself every once in a while.

the way i look at it is i could NEVER watch other ppl's children (i don't know how you do it!) so the childcare providers who do must LIKE watching kids, right???? unless they were "closed" (maybe you need a "closed" day) one day a week, i would assume they wanted to watch the kids every day???? i have a sitter one day a week so i can get things done (freelance writing work or housework or whatever) or just do nothing. i figure it's her job and i can do whatever i want while she's babysitting. so what i'm saying is that these parents probably think you want the working hours and that you like watching kids or being with kids a lot, unlike them. ykwim?
i'm one of those moms who needs time away from the kids. i can't be with them 24/7. i'm not seeing a really big issue with OP's friend. she sounds like most moms i know. we need time to be with our friends, time away from the kids, etc.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Grace and Granola* 
Thank you all. every one of you! I have to say I'm surprised more people on an Attachment Parenting focused board seem so ok with this detached parenting style.

Why would you be surprised that people who ascribe to AP, which is ultimately about being able to put yourself in your child's shoes, are also able and willing to be empathetic to another mom's feelings and/or situation? Or that they tend to respond to what seems like judgement, regardless of how you're saying that you're not judging this person--since most AP people have felt the sting of someone judging them at some point?

To me, the folks who practice AP (and not just a checklist) tend to be very easily able to have empathy for other people--even when they disagree.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
I had my first because of a birth control failure. I had not planned to be a mother at 21. I'd always had the idea that when I had children (sometime off in the distant future) it would be when I was able to be a SAHP.

Also, I was active duty Navy at the time, so just quitting my job and hanging out with my kid was not an option.

I feel like I didn't communicate well. I don't think that all mothers need/should be stay at home parents. I really don't. I absolutely 100% get that some people have to work and some people really want to work. That makes sense to me. My husband has to work. But he comes home at night because he really really wants to see our kid. He goes to extreme effort to spend time with her as much as he can. Folks who don't behave like my husband are the ones who confuse me--not people who have to work.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Not calling during the sleepover doesn't seem like a huge deal to me, my kids go to grandma's for the weekend and I try to remember to call, but often I'm distracted and end up forgetting. My mom calls if they really want to talk to me, but they're usually pretty happy and don't care







BUT, the part about not being able to handle being alone with her kids for 3 measly hours seems pretty absurd. And sorry, but I don't buy for a second that if roles were reversed and this was the DAD acting this way (not being able to watch the kids without help, not doing any housework or cooking) that people wouldn't be irate about it.

I've been a wohm and I get not wanting kids all over you the moment you get home, but I sucked it up and dealt with it, because the kids needed it. I don't have a lot of empathy for the "me first" attitude of our culture


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
My husband has to work. But he comes home at night because he really really wants to see our kid. He goes to extreme effort to spend time with her as much as he can. Folks who don't behave like my husband are the ones who confuse me--not people who have to work.

my husband is like that







he's a better mom than i am LOL i mean to say that he's nurturing and fun and all that great stuff.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tjjazzy* 
the way i look at it is i could NEVER watch other ppl's children (i don't know how you do it!) so the childcare providers who do must LIKE watching kids, right???? unless they were "closed" (maybe you need a "closed" day) one day a week, i would assume they wanted to watch the kids every day???? i have a sitter one day a week so i can get things done (freelance writing work or housework or whatever) or just do nothing. i figure it's her job and i can do whatever i want while she's babysitting. so what i'm saying is that these parents probably think you want the working hours and that you like watching kids or being with kids a lot, unlike them. ykwim?
i'm one of those moms who needs time away from the kids. i can't be with them 24/7. i'm not seeing a really big issue with OP's friend. she sounds like most moms i know. we need time to be with our friends, time away from the kids, etc.

I wouldn't assume that my childcare provider "wanted" to watch the kdis every day - I'm sure she wouldn't do it for freen. However, if there is an unscheduled day off for me or DH, that does not necessarily mean a change of routine for the kids. If the childcare provider is being paid, it is none of her business whether the parent is at work, at home, or partying with friends. It would never cross my mind to tell the childcare provider what I was doing while she does her job.


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## momtoTnT (Dec 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
However, if there is an unscheduled day off for me or DH, that does not necessarily mean a change of routine for the kids. If the childcare provider is being paid, it is none of her business whether the parent is at work, at home, or partying with friends. It would never cross my mind to tell the childcare provider what I was doing while she does her job.

I agree - especially about the change in routine part - my DH was laid off a couple of different times (about 8 months out of 24) in the last couple of years, and even though it hurt financially, keeping their routine was important to us - so we sent them to daycare even though my DH was home.

I also have to pay for the full week whether the kids are there or not, so if I have unexpected time off, I may not always choose to spend it with my kids - I might just decide to use that time to paint the living room, or have lunch with my sister, or visit with my mom, or read a book.


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

i empathize









i was a dayhome provider for a number of years and i also provided care for my friend's one year old daughter. it was difficult because our parenting values were so different i found it really hard to relate and it was always in the back of my mind. she would bring her dd to me all day and then she would go out for most of the evening, hiring a teen to babysit in her home during those hours. it did put a bit of a strain on our friendship, even though she was a wonderful friend to me.

as to the needing to decompress, i do get it. from a different perspective though, i had my dayhome while i was a single mom, and my days were exhausting with no one to provide relief at the end of the day or on my days off. still, i would find a way to be present for my kids at the end of the day.

i guess i have a hard time understanding why it would be so hard to decompress with a child sitting on your lap and snuggling, even just for 10 minutes or so







i'm not saying either way is right or wrong, just from my perspective and experiences, it's hard to relate.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

OP I totally sympathize. I used to be a nanny and I worked for a mom like this. Looking back on it I think she felt out of her element when it came to childcare. People who look after kids all day go into "kid mode". Everything is chaotic and loud and messy and after a while you just get used to it. On the other hand, if you're gone all day at a job in civilized society, you're in an adult world. Things are efficient, people listen to you, and generally none of your coworkers are whining or needing their butts/hands/faces wiped. So when you come to pick up your kid it's sensory overload, sort of like jumping into the pool after the hot tub. There's no time to adjust, you just have to change into you supermom costume and go. I can see how that would be very hard. That being said, I do think your friend seems a bit detatched. Perhaps she'll be more into her kids when they're older. In any case, I'm sorry you are going through this!
Also, Could you try letting the kids nap for 30 minutes or less? That way they could get some rest but not enough to interfere with their bedtime.


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## AmyKT (Aug 20, 2009)

I don't really understand the mom's attitude, either. I work all day and when I get home, I might want to run to the bathroom first (ahem, 34 weeks pregnant), but the next thing I want to do is sit and cuddle with DD and breathe in her sweet baby smell. It makes me sad when I see kids who appear to need more nurturing than they're getting.


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## Mummoth (Oct 30, 2003)

I only do after school care and I'm surprised you're okay with the mom hanging around for a visit. When the moms show up, I don't mind chatting for a few minutes but I don't invite anyone to sit down! By then, I'm looking forward to having MY family time.

Maybe she's really plugged in with the kids in the mornings before work, and evenings just aren't her best time of day? That would be a good reason to not want the kids to nap, too. If they go to bed early, they'll be up early and have longer mornings together?


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reignbelle* 
If you don't want to deal with cranky kids and she doesn't want naps then the kids need a new sitter. You don't have to give in because she's paying you just know that she may have to find someone else.

I totally agree with this. Your house, your rules.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Grace and Granola* 
Thank you all. every one of you! I have to say I'm surprised more people on an Attachment Parenting focused board seem so ok with this detached parenting style.

I'm totally an AP, but I know that it isn't for everybody. I really try not to judge other people's parenting.









Quote:

These girls have been away from their parents for 9 hours. Many days, they start weeping around 4:00 that they want their mom and dad. I just can't imagine being that 6yo and craving mommy's hugs and so badly wanting to tell her about her day and have her mom say, GO AWAY.
This must be VERY hard to watch. It's easier to not judge when you don't see the children crying.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
Not calling during the sleepover doesn't seem like a huge deal to me, my kids go to grandma's for the weekend and I try to remember to call, but often I'm distracted and end up forgetting.

I don't think spending the night at the sitters is the same thing as spending the night at grandma's.

My DH travels with his job and I find not calling totally unacceptable. If he couldn't manage to talk to the kids for a few minutes out of his day, I think I'd kick him out of the house when he got back. Honestly. It is totally unacceptable *to me.*

Even when he is traveling internationally and we are dealing with big time changes, we work it out so he can talk to the kids. He's stepped out of meetings, business dinners, etc to talk to his kids for a few minutes. When the only parenting you are going to do for the whole day is a 5 minute chat, the 5 minute chat is a BIG PRIORITY.


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## Grace and Granola (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BarnMomma* 
I agree with the frustration but I have one question...

How do you not let a child nap? I mean, if a child is tired and their little body is telling them they need to rest, how do you keep that from happening? My little son has fallen asleep at the kitchen table while eating on days when he's resisted napping but needed one. I just can't fathom how you keep a tired child awake?

Well, the child is 6, so it's not exactly like she's falling face first into her lunch! But she is droopy and tired, so I try to get her to do some art or she has a little video game. But I like to keep her in her own bedroom otherwise she would just be gabbing at me the entire time and then I don't get any quiet, which I need once a day. I do the best I can to keep her up, but I think she goes to sleep after I check on her because she knows I won't be back for a while!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Why would you be surprised that people who ascribe to AP, which is ultimately about being able to put yourself in your child's shoes, are also able and willing to be empathetic to another mom's feelings and/or situation? Or that they tend to respond to what seems like judgement, regardless of how you're saying that you're not judging this person--since most AP people have felt the sting of someone judging them at some point?

To me, the folks who practice AP (and not just a checklist) tend to be very easily able to have empathy for other people--even when they disagree.

I get that. And I am grateful for people showing me their perspective and defending my friend's reasoning. I just thought I might see more people chiming in on behalf of the children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
OP I totally sympathize. I used to be a nanny and I worked for a mom like this. Looking back on it I think she felt out of her element when it came to childcare. People who look after kids all day go into "kid mode". Everything is chaotic and loud and messy and after a while you just get used to it. On the other hand, if you're gone all day at a job in civilized society, you're in an adult world. Things are efficient, people listen to you, and generally none of your coworkers are whining or needing their butts/hands/faces wiped. So when you come to pick up your kid it's sensory overload, sort of like jumping into the pool after the hot tub. There's no time to adjust, you just have to change into you supermom costume and go. I can see how that would be very hard. That being said, I do think your friend seems a bit detatched. Perhaps she'll be more into her kids when they're older. In any case, I'm sorry you are going through this!
Also, Could you try letting the kids nap for 30 minutes or less? That way they could get some rest but not enough to interfere with their bedtime.

Thanks for this. This is helpful!! hot tub---> pool I totally get that!


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilacMama* 
I struggle with depression and I act like your friend does when I'm depressed. Just a thought. It's great that she has a baby-sitter like you!

Oh gosh, that was my first thought, too... I kinda feel like I'm screwing the kids up, so it's better for them to not really be around me much? I guess? Hard to describe. But I'm a sahm, and don't get any hours away from the kids.

DD1 (she's 4) had her first sleepover at Dh's dad's and although I was constantly thinking about her, I didn't call. I was afraid she would freak and want me and be miserable... Oh, and if I ask her during transitional time what she did that day, she'll just say "Played". If I ask as we are getting ready for bed, she'll talk and talk and talk.

But yeah, you said you didn't understand the "mindset" and I thought I'd chime in... hth


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## queenofchaos (Feb 16, 2008)

You've gotten lots of responses already, so I don't know how much I can contribute except for perspective. I was a SAHM for 8 yrs, and then *had* to go back to work due to DH's job loss (and difficulty finding decent work). It was devastating to me. I was desperate to keep staying at home w/ them. So once I went back to work, I cherished every 2nd that I was with them. (No, it's not always easy and perfect!) I really can't imagine responding to my child(ren) the way this mom does at then end of the day. Yes, adults have needs, too, and they should be recognized and filled. BUT, as an adult I can reason and put off certain things a lot better and easier than a child.
It seems really wrong to me to constantly put off a child's needs. Once in a while it is a necessity. But come on, when you become a parent it's time to grow up. To me, the request to not allow naps is just another example of this mom's self-centeredness. As a care provider, when a child needs to rest or eat or drink those needs should NOT be denied, no matter how inconvienent to the caregiver, no matter who that is. I am not saying that those needs always have to be met immediatley, or in a certain way. Sometimes we have to be creative in how we meet those needs. I have been a childcare provider, and when a parent has asked me to not allow a child's need (whatever that may be) to be met (without some medical cause), I explain that while I will try to honor their request, in the end, if the child's needs is pressing and obvious, it will be met. It is part of licensing requirements. Just like you are not allowed to force a child to eat or sleep, you are not supposed to keep them from doing so either.
While not criminal, I think this mom's parenting is sub-par. BUT that is her choice and no one else's to make for her. You might be able to offer some suggestions that might help her cope better. In the end, you will probably just have to settle for accepting her for who she is, giving her kids the best care you can, and hoping for the best.


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## christophersmom (Sep 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
Having had a home childcare myself, I can say that in a daycare situation where it isn't a nanny at your home, you kinda have to deal with your children being on the same schedule as the other children in the house. When I had eight children during the day, I wouldn't have moved lunchtime or naptime because a parent wanted to be accomodated. (Obviously if a child was tired, I would let them nap regardless of the time.)

In our state daycare kids are mandated a rest time. So if they were in daycare they woudl get a rest time. I think you shoudl leave rest time as your policy. Plus, you need down time.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

It sounds like you are in a tough philosophical spot. I am sorry.

I will give you my thoughts as a WOHM with a number of things in common with your friend. (Namely, I travel for work a lot and I have a very involved, committed spouse. There have been times when he or I took on way more of the 'work' of making a family work, so I'm sure there are people who have looked at my life at a point in time and thought that I had it so easy because my DH was doing 90% of the household and parenting work.)

I wouldn't make some of the same choices that it sounds like your friend is making, but just in case it's helpful, some reflections:

1. While you see that it's only, "FROM 5:30 TO 8:30!!" I see someone who is used to having another parent around and who doesn't have all day to get into a rhythm with her kids, and might genuinely find it to be a big shift.

Put another way: It can be easier to spend long periods of time with children than short ones.

Last winter, when I was going through a very stressful time work-wise, I found my DH's once a week sports nights to be really tough -- I just didn't have a lot of emotional energy to do it all by myself for those 3-4 hours. I felt unbelievably silly and pathetic -- I used to do it all day, so why the heck was I having trouble with a few hours? -- but that was the reality. I did it, and enjoyed it some of the time, but I found it hard.

OTOH, when he was on a business trip for a week, and I was solo parenting all the time, that was a breeze and a total joy. I personally find it takes a little bit for me to settle into a new groove, but once I'm there, it's cake.

2. Regarding the lack of response to your email, honestly, it depends what she is doing for those three days. I understand that, given the pattern, you are concerned that she doesn't care, but speaking from experience, there are times when I simply do not have a moment to breathe, let alone answer a personal email. When I am away, I usually have nightly Skypes with DS, but there have been trips where I couldn't do that, and on those, it was hard to even send a quick one-line email. It depends entirely on the kind of trip, and really has zero to do with how I feel.

3. What does your friend do? There are WOH parents, and then there are WOH parents. Does she have the kind of job where she needs to work at night as well?

4. I am 100% with you on the naptime thing. My DS doesn't nap on weekends, so bedtimes and mornings are smoother. As much as I like the extra 2 hours I get with him in the evenings thanks to the daycare nap, the bedtime and morning issues make me sometimes wish that daycare wouldn't offer a nap. However, I would never think to ask a daycare provider to keep him from napping. That's totally unfair and unreasonable.

5. I understand that this is a vent, and I think it's important to be able to do that, but I will gently point out that usually, when someone says, "I do not understand why ..." what they really mean is, "I do not accept that ..."

6. Finally, and most importantly, are the girls reasonably happy kids? Of course it's hard to tell from a second-hand description, but nothing you have written suggests to me that they have attachment issues. I'm sure your care during the day helps a great deal in that respect, but even that wouldn't make up for truly detached parenting.

Also, FWIW, the more time I spend with him, the more my DS asks for me when I'm away. The fact that they are open about their feelings and ask for her towards the end of the day could be a good sign.








to you. I hope this helps a little and that you are able to find some understanding and make peace with your feelings about your friend's mothering style. And kudos to you for providing such a wonderful, caring environment for those children. I'm sure your friend and her DH appreciate what you do for their family.


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
I wouldn't assume that my childcare provider "wanted" to watch the kdis every day - I'm sure she wouldn't do it for freen.

sorry, i meant she wanted to watch them _as a paid job_ . she chose the job (she watches other kids too but she's qualified to do other things as well) and suggested herself to me when i had written on facebook that i might be looking for babysitters and she chose the fee i pay her, so i assume (as a person who would _never_ watch kids as a job, as i lack the patience and any desire) she likes watching kids and wants to. granted, some kids would be very difficult to _want_ to watch...


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## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tjjazzy* 
sorry, i meant she wanted to watch them _as a paid job_ . she chose the job (she watches other kids too but she's qualified to do other things as well) and suggested herself to me when i had written on facebook that i might be looking for babysitters and she chose the fee i pay her, so i assume (as a person who would _never_ watch kids as a job, as i lack the patience and any desire) she likes watching kids and wants to. granted, some kids would be very difficult to _want_ to watch...









Most likely it is just what you have to do to make it work. I know another provider who has managed to go down to four days a week and has Fridays off. I would love, love, LOVE to do that but all of my kids are here five days. If I tried to go down to four days I would lose them all and have to start all over.

Personally, I don't take very many days off either. If I am "closed" then I don't get paid and we need all the income we can get. I have heard of some providers requiring parents to pay them for two weeks of vacation a year, but that is definitely not the norm in our area.

I find what makes childcare so hard is that the general public tends to view it as the easiest job in the world and doesn't cut you any slack. If I was staying home with just my DD nobody would look down on me for having a bad day. But since I watch 5/6 kids at a time I am expected to be positive and upbeat, and have a perfectly clean house, and meet each kid's needs to the exact expectations of the parents (nap vs. no nap is a good example), and never have any problems adjusting to taking in a new kid.

I understand both sides. If my kid was in care I would have very high expectation of her care provider.... but at the same time it is those high expectations, along with the assumption that the job is somehow "easy" that makes it so hard.


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## tjjazzy (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *just_lily* 
but at the same time it is those high expectations, along with the assumption that the job is somehow "easy" that makes it so hard.

i can never understand why anyone thinks that childcare is easy! SAHMothering has the same stigma attached to it and that just doesn't make sense to me. caring for children is the hardest job. i think those who don't agree haven't taken care of children.

OP, about the nap situation, could you give the 6 yo an earlier nap? you probably like having a set naptime for everyone though, right? one with an earlier naptime probably wouldn't work...


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
I feel like I didn't communicate well. I don't think that all mothers need/should be stay at home parents. I really don't. I absolutely 100% get that some people have to work and some people really want to work. That makes sense to me. My husband has to work. But he comes home at night because he really really wants to see our kid. He goes to extreme effort to spend time with her as much as he can. Folks who don't behave like my husband are the ones who confuse me--not people who have to work.

We're still not communicating well.

You wondered why people have children if they don't want to be with them.

My response was trying to show you that not all children are planned. Furthermore, not all children are _wanted_. I know three adults (my DH included) whose own parents have said to them "If I could go back and do things over, I would never have had children." For some, kids are speed-bumps in the highway of life.

A lot of people have children with very little forethought. They do it because it's another perceived milestone in life....you're supposed to finish school, settle down, and have kids. When I meet people in their 20's and 30's who say they don't want kids....EVER....I'm ecstatic! At least they know what they want and aren't afraid to buck societal norms. So much better than caving in to pressure and regretting it....


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

OP, I'm right there with you. I can never get my mind around it when I spend time with parents like that, who seem to find their children to be a bother for even the few hours they are with them.

Now that it's summer, I run into it more often in complete strangers. I homeschool my children and went to an indoor playground type of place earlier this week with some homeschool friends and their children. This one mom who was just there said, "Ugh, summers, it's only been 3 days and I don't know what to do with my children." We were all flabbergasted and had no idea how to respond. We love spending time with our children (though, of course, it doesn't hurt to have occasional breaks) and don't find it hard to have them home with us at all.

I do feel sorry for those sweet little children who cry because they miss their parents and am so grateful that they have such a caring caregiver during the day.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
We're still not communicating well.

You wondered why people have children if they don't want to be with them.

My response was trying to show you that not all children are planned. Furthermore, not all children are _wanted_. I know three adults (my DH included) whose own parents have said to them "If I could go back and do things over, I would never have had children." For some, kids are speed-bumps in the highway of life.

Well, I am the product of rape. I have been told that for my entire life. My gut level response after that experience is, "If you had children after 1973 it was a choice." That may not sound nice, but after being told for my entire







life how much I wasn't wanted I don't really have it in me to be nice about it anymore. If you don't want children, don't have them. If your religion precludes abortion there are a lot of people desperate to adopt.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
Well, I am the product of rape. I have been told that for my entire life. My gut level response after that experience is, "If you had children after 1973 it was a choice." That may not sound nice, but after being told for my entire







life how much I wasn't wanted I don't really have it in me to be nice about it anymore. If you don't want children, don't have them. If your religion precludes abortion there are a lot of people desperate to adopt.

I'm sorry for your experience, but I don't think it's that black and white as "if you don't want children, don't have them." It takes two to make a baby and when one wants the child and the other doesn't, compromises have to be made.

Anyway, I think that plenty of people don't realize they don't want children until after they have them. The kids and the house and the two-car garage are all part of that supposed "American Dream." I'm not making excuses for people....just thinking of reasons for their behavior.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
I'm sorry for your experience, but I don't think it's that black and white as "if you don't want children, don't have them." It takes two to make a baby and when one wants the child and the other doesn't, compromises have to be made.

Anyway, I think that plenty of people don't realize they don't want children until after they have them. The kids and the house and the two-car garage are all part of that supposed "American Dream." I'm not making excuses for people....just thinking of reasons for their behavior.

Very true, there is huge societal pressure to have children and a definite attitude that there is something selfish and childish about not having kids. I have huge respect for people who realise that they don't want to be parents, and don't give in to the pressure and follow the "script".


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenofchaos* 
So once I went back to work, I cherished every 2nd that I was with them. (No, it's not always easy and perfect!) I really can't imagine responding to my child(ren) the way this mom does at then end of the day.

You said yourself that you didn't want to be working. That makes your situation far different.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenofchaos* 
when you become a parent it's time to grow up.

You don't know what's going on. "Grow up" often means "do things like I do." The OP is missing a lot of interaction time between this mom and her kids. The fact that the kids want the parents by the end of the day suggests the kids are connected with their parents.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenofchaos* 
To me, the request to not allow naps is just another example of this mom's self-centeredness. As a care provider, when a child needs to rest or eat or drink those needs should NOT be denied, no matter how inconvienent to the caregiver, no matter who that is. I am not saying that those needs always have to be met immediatley, or in a certain way. Sometimes we have to be creative in how we meet those needs. I have been a childcare provider, and when a parent has asked me to not allow a child's need (whatever that may be) to be met (without some medical cause), I explain that while I will try to honor their request, in the end, if the child's needs is pressing and obvious, it will be met. It is part of licensing requirements. Just like you are not allowed to force a child to eat or sleep, you are not supposed to keep them from doing so either.

I have a bad sleeper. Yes, I'd get pissed if he napped everyday because he would *never* get on a normal schedule. People without sleep issues often don't understand how utterly devastating it can be to everyone's mental health. I've never forced my children to stay awake, but I do want to cry when my 5YO falls asleep because I know it means days of a hyped-up kid until the wee hours.


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## Teenytoona (Jun 13, 2005)

OP, sorry you find this all so frustrating. I'm sure you see all this with very different eyes from your friend. Glad you're willing to try and imagine her perspective.

I'm a WOHM - I'd say I'm alot like your friend. Not that I always shoo the kids away when I get home - but the cacophony when I get home, the noise, the chaos... well, I just don't handle it well. Having to be the only parent after work is very scary for me. My husband usually knows he needs to give me notice so I can prepare. On a school night that means cooking dinner, overseeing homework, chores, bath and bedtime all between 6 and 8ish for our youngest, and until 9 ish for the olders, that's something that I'm not prepared to do on a regular basis by myself. And considering that we get up at 5 (and are therefore in bed by about the same time as the big kids), that doesn't leave any adult decompress time. Our house is usually a major mess because I just can't push it all into those few hours - even with DH being home just about every night. If I have a weekend day where DH has some other obligation and I have to look after the kids all day - I frantically search for activities, events, something - another adult coming over/being around, visiting someone, because I just am not good at parenting. Not in large doses, not all day. Some women just aren't great at it at all - it does not come natural to all of us. In fact, it's very unnatural for some of us.

Often times when I describe my job to people, they say somethign like "that's alot of math - I could NEVER do that!!" We all have different strengths. The woman who watches our three also has her own two kids to look after, too. How on earth she does it baffles me, because that is just something for which I completely lack the capacity.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

hmmm one hour so they go to bed at 9 doesn't seem too bad. Sounds like these kids NEED their naps. I have a 5 y/o and 3 y/o who do not typically nap. If you put my 5 y/o in a room with a video game and/or video on TV to watch, he would not fall asleep.
My 3 y/o also likely would not, but might. If she did, I'd leave her figuring she needed it. (and have!)

I do have a friend who is WOH mom and I didn't get her enforcing school-year bedtime on a 13 and 10 yr. old...till she pointed out that SHE still has to get up at the same time and the 2 year old does not go to bed unless the others are in their rooms. (it is not necessarily enforced SLEEP time at 8:30 but they go in their rooms and do something quiet for awhile...eventually lights out.) And the 2 yr. old still has to get up and go to daycare in the AM.

so it's not so much about not wanting to be with the kids, the bedtime thing, it's about wanting to have an early enough bedtime that mom can go to bed and function.

and as a SAH mom who NEEDS my decompression at the end of my day, I don't encourage napping when it starts to push bedtime back into the close to 10 PM zone...


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## queenofchaos (Feb 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
You said yourself that you didn't want to be working. That makes your situation far different.

You don't know what's going on. "Grow up" often means "do things like I do." The OP is missing a lot of interaction time between this mom and her kids. The fact that the kids want the parents by the end of the day suggests the kids are connected with their parents.

I have a bad sleeper. Yes, I'd get pissed if he napped everyday because he would *never* get on a normal schedule. People without sleep issues often don't understand how utterly devastating it can be to everyone's mental health. I've never forced my children to stay awake, but I do want to cry when my 5YO falls asleep because I know it means days of a hyped-up kid until the wee hours.

You are assuming that I have children that are perfect sleepers. Far from it! I also know that a lot of sleep issues w/ children occur because they are not getting enough sleep. So they fall asleep at odd times. At that hyped-up behavior can often be a sign of overtiredness. I have learned the hard way about sleep issues in children. The thing is, as a licensed care provider, there are certain LAWS that have to be adhered to.

It's not about having people do things the way I do. When you become a parent, there is this person that is totally dependant upon you to look out for their welfare. That requires maturity. That's all.

I have seen kids that come from homes where they are abused, and in spite of that kind of treatment they still want to be w/ their parents. I have known children that have never met a parent, and still they have a desire to have a relationship with that parent. The fact that a child wants their parent at the end of the day is evidence of a connection, but what about the quality of that connection? I think that's what the OP's concern is.


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## New_Natural_Mom (Dec 21, 2007)

I'm a FTWOHM to a 2 yo. As soon as I pick DS up from daycare it is all about family time. I actually get irritated when the front desk lady at the daycare tries to chat with me on the way in...I just wanna get my boy! I have refused all business trips now b/c I just don't want to be away from him. My DH travels for work, and about day 4 I will need a break, but my time revolves around my son and it is just the way I like it.

FWIW.


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## Subhuti (Feb 18, 2005)

My take on it:

Maybe your friend is just doing the best she possibly can ....

... and a little compassion from us is in order.

That said, if you feel you are enabling an emotionally neglectful, self-indulging parent, you might want to consider ending your arrangement. Doesn't mean you have to sever the friendship. Doesn't mean the two families can't hang out together and have great sleepovers. Just, if that is the case, you wouldn't want to be an agent allowing it to happen.


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## rlmueller (May 22, 2009)

Is a no-no. that's torture--not to draw comparison but being light funny and I suck at that.

"Honey, I need alone time with my fam and you need it with yours"

Beyond that, lovingly explore if she needs kid relations help/training/how-to. Can I help you relate to them better? Sort of thing. I think the relations she has to her kids is uncool based on your write-up.


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## mummyofan (Jun 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alfabetsoup* 
Also, perhaps her job is quite stressful and she needs to decompress when she finishes--just half an hour without any demands, and that's why she wants to chat with you while her kids play.

The children, at that time, should be the priority; she's been away all day and they need some of her time... 10 mins or so with them and then chat time shouldn't be a problem.

OP I'm glad you vented!


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## laila2 (Jul 21, 2007)

I have thought about this before this thread was up, and concluded that it is not that I do not want to be with my children, it is the change of going from work to kids. That role change is difficult.

I am the 'dominant' parent, staying home while kids are sick etc. So I am the one most requested for hugs etc. I love rolling around the floor and playing. But sometimes my 7 year old dd wants hugs in the middle of something that I am desperately trying to accomplish, and then it is irritating. So I feel guilty and start thinking I must not give enough hugs. But in retrospect, she also request hugs in order to procrastinate a request we have made for her, 'please get into your pj's' etc and that is irritating. My ds on the other hand, 4, is getting to be hands off already and that is alarming. But I guess that means he got plenty of hugs already right?

But I do always hug and ask about their day when I pick them up. I do need days to myself when I get them, and take them for grocery shopping, exercise organizing. Or when dd's school is closed, I still send ds to daycare, so we can have a day. Then I feel guilty about that.

And as some have said, people have different tollerance levels, and it is hard to know how they will be, until they are parenting. I can not understand how care givers do it. It is beyond me. Some are made for it. I have a tough time with other peoples kids, and fear play dates. I took long leaves when my children were born, and was clammering for dh to get home at the end of the day.

I like the idea of a movie or giving books to read during nap time, for quiet time.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I say all of this as a very attatched parent. My expressions of attatchment and how we work in that is just different.

I come home after a long day of physical labor and the last thing, the very last thing I want is my children pawing all over me. Especially my 7 year old who is always super clingy and affectionate. sweet, but clinging is clinging. I am an introvert and I need 45 min to an hour before I am ok with touching, climbing, clinging of any sort. adult conversation though. like a life line. And taking time for me, so that I do not snap or hate being a mother is very important. as my kids have gotten older they really understand that (especially myh introverted dd







) I am not physically able to touch my children at 4:30 in the afternoon after touching and being touched all day. having that time to decompress is the only thing allows me to go on as a parent.

My absolute least favorite time of the day is when my youngest comes home from school. its not that I am not happy to see her, its just the transition and chaos and yammering on and throwing papers at me etc. I hate it. i hate school and the last thing I want is to hear about it.

All of this was much easier for me when I was a stay at home homeschooling married mother. Overnight I went to working, single and kids in school. I was ok then but when I went to full time I have had a really hard time adjusting and I hate the whole transition from work to home. I really can't deal with my kids until the actual transition is over. (until we are home, I have washed up and changed clothes and supper is on the stove.) I haver sensory integration disorder and am an introvert. it makes transityioning after a long day very very hard on me. i wsh I could grow up, suck it up and be the perfect june cleaver type but I am not and if my kids want any good time with me I need to make that transition in a way that keeps me from losing it the rest of the day.

the three hour thing....well thats sad but she sounds pretty overwhelmed. It must be super lonely and depressing to be alone all the time. I have never considered my children company. They were work i love them but they were a lot of work. and I was generally bored out of my mind as a stay at home parent with small children. Especially when my husband would work from sun up to sun down. I was fine if he were around to do stuff with us and keep me company. but alone I could hardly cope.

I have never been a caller checker inner. Never been that interested with what my kids did when they were at someone elses house for sleep over or playdate. Did they have fun? was there blood shed? great. I love hearing about it from my kids but never cared to listen to their care providers play by play. things like little text messeges and pictures would not have gotten much of a response from me. I rarely call my kids while i am away from them for just a couple of days either. They are having fun. why interupt that. Also as a childcare provider I was irritated when someone would call for their happy child, who would then be reminded that they missed their mom and said happy child would go from perfectly content to misreable and crying for mom who could do very little over the phone. thanks mom.

Naps, if my babysitter were giving my kids afternoon naps (Especially at 3 and 6 years old, after I had asked her not to) I would be ticked off. I assume she is paying you right? it is your job to help the kids get through a rough afternoon. giving them an afternoon nap would totally wreck bedtime. If they do fall asleep try to limit naps to 20 to 30 minutes. Don;t wait for the kids to wake up on their own. give them a few minutes to rest well and then wake them up. an hour and half nap is a very long one. if they absolutely must sleep try to move it as early as possible (11:30 or 12) and again keep it short. we had a strict early bedtime. sticking to it was essential and one of the reasons they did not need naps. it was better for them and better for me. of course one nap could throw off our routien for a week!! Its a vicious cycle...trust me. and bedtime was my salvation. by the time 7:30 rolled around I was ready to snap. Needed a break really bad. If someone had given my kids a nap I would have wound up (even worse) out of sync kids to deal with when I was least able to. again vicious cycle. If I do not stick to a routien and get regular touch free intervals I tend to push my kids away more and they get clinger which stresses me out more on and on and on. My kids are 14, 10, and 7 and I still enfore a strict 8:30 bedtime for the all during the school year and 9-10 in the summer (they can sleep in in the summer.)


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Why would you be surprised that people who ascribe to AP, which is ultimately about being able to put yourself in your child's shoes, are also able and willing to be empathetic to another mom's feelings and/or situation? Or that they tend to respond to what seems like judgement, regardless of how you're saying that you're not judging this person--since most AP people have felt the sting of someone judging them at some point?

To me, the folks who practice AP (and not just a checklist) tend to be very easily able to have empathy for other people--even when they disagree.

i heart you, Tigerchild!

I will also echo the sentiments of many of the WOHM here. Three hours alone with the kids after a day of work would be scary - as would an entire weekend day. Business trips were often my salvation. Sometimes you are just in such a business groove that you really can't switch gears and check-in at home. I didn't check in with my husband when I did my Reserve Duty either. I was just in a different role - not wife and mother, but in-charge.

I spent a LOT of time chatting with my caregivers at the end of the day. to be honest, I felt it was VERY important to have a good rapport with my caregivers - and here I thought everyone loved me 'cause I was the chatty mom that asked about them or shared a laugh about my own day. Honestly, my way of connecting to my children was to connect to their caregivers. I guess that makes more sense at the baby stage, but it's carried over into the after school care.

Finally, I was never so happy than when my daughter started kindergarten (at 5.5 yo) and could drop state mandated naps. It moved the sleep time from after 10 pm to closer to 8:30 or 9! I don't know that there is a solution for anyone there. But where does the state get off telling someone when to nap kids!?


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *just_lily* 
What always gets me is when parents tell me they need to bring their kids to me even when the parent has a day off, so that "they can get things done around the house." I understand once in a while, but one of my parents works four days a week, and brings her DD to me five days so that she can have a day to herself. I am pretty sure it is only jealousy on my part, but it really irks me. I would LOVE to have a day to myself to get my house in order but I always have their kids running around.

My view is this - if you WOH you don't have as much time to get housework done.

I just wanted to offer a perspective on this. Dh and I both WOH, and both of us have jobs that require more than 40 hours a week (although the schedule for those extra hours is flexible--we both typically work for 2-3 hours in the evening after dd goes to bed).

If one of us has a day we don't have to be at work, dd ALWAYS goes to her care provider.

We can't afford any kind of cleaning help, so all of the deep cleaning/major chores need to be done on weekends. Nothing gets done in the evenings--our dd has severe food allergies, so all our meals need to be prepared from scratch and, as I said, we have other work to do. So this means stuff like laundry, vacuuming, any major food prep for the week (baking, soups, etc.), scrubbing the bathroom, mopping, paying bills, dropping off or picking up dry cleaning, going to the post office, you name it--it all has to be done on the weekends. If one of us a weekday to catch up on this stuff, then it means that we'll have a weekend day where ALL THREE OF US can do something fun together as a family, instead of struggling to balance chores with family time.

And besides that, honestly, sometimes people just need a day off. There have been a handful of days since dd was born when I had a day off, she went to her daycare, and I just took a day for me. Days like that are so incredibly rare and, as an introvert who has not found parenting a natural or easy fit, I find that they make me a better parent in a million ways. When I've had some time to recharge my batteries, I'm more patient, more social, less touched out, etc.


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## Grace and Granola (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C* 

I spent a LOT of time chatting with my caregivers at the end of the day. to be honest, I felt it was VERY important to have a good rapport with my caregivers - *and here I thought everyone loved me 'cause I was the chatty mom that asked about them or shared a laugh about my own day*. Honestly, my way of connecting to my children was to connect to their caregivers. I guess that makes more sense at the baby stage, but it's carried over into the after school care.

I'm the OP...and honestly, I'm pretty much over this whole friend thing. I really just needed to vent. I honestly was NOT judging my friend, but just being from two totally different worlds I couldn't fathom acting the way she does and I needed to let off steam in this very safe environment rather than to anyone in my real life! I appreciate everyone chiming in and even giving me perspective from the other side.

But I wanted to quote the part above Ellien C, because in your post I sensed that you thought I judged my friend for chatting with me when she came to pick up her kids. And maybe some others have said that they want the babysat kids GONE asap, but not me. I really really enjoy chatting with my friend when she comes, because after all I'm the one with no adult interaction all day! But the part that bothers me is that she dismisses her kids so she can do it. I so wish she would just scoop them up, love on them a bit and THEN send them off to play so we can chill and chat. That's all. I just feel bad for her kids at that part of the day because they are craving her by that point of the day.


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## marinak1977 (Feb 24, 2009)

Just a random thought, but could you say something like "why don't you say hi to these 2 while I make us a cup of tea so that we can catch up?" This way you can remove yourself with a task, limiting your friend's options, but she would know that in just a few moments she can have adult time again. It may help the girls get the attention.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
I say all of this as a very attatched parent. My expressions of attatchment and how we work in that is just different.

I come home after a long day of physical labor and the last thing, the very last thing I want is my children pawing all over me. Especially my 7 year old who is always super clingy and affectionate. sweet, but clinging is clinging. I am an introvert and I need 45 min to an hour before I am ok with touching, climbing, clinging of any sort. adult conversation though. like a life line. And taking time for me, so that I do not snap or hate being a mother is very important. as my kids have gotten older they really understand that (especially myh introverted dd







) I am not physically able to touch my children at 4:30 in the afternoon after touching and being touched all day. having that time to decompress is the only thing allows me to go on as a parent.

My absolute least favorite time of the day is when my youngest comes home from school. its not that I am not happy to see her, its just the transition and chaos and yammering on and throwing papers at me etc. I hate it. i hate school and the last thing I want is to hear about it.

All of this was much easier for me when I was a stay at home homeschooling married mother. Overnight I went to working, single and kids in school. I was ok then but when I went to full time I have had a really hard time adjusting and I hate the whole transition from work to home. I really can't deal with my kids until the actual transition is over. (until we are home, I have washed up and changed clothes and supper is on the stove.) I haver sensory integration disorder and am an introvert. it makes transityioning after a long day very very hard on me. i wsh I could grow up, suck it up and be the perfect june cleaver type but I am not and if my kids want any good time with me I need to make that transition in a way that keeps me from losing it the rest of the day.

the three hour thing....well thats sad but she sounds pretty overwhelmed. It must be super lonely and depressing to be alone all the time. I have never considered my children company. They were work i love them but they were a lot of work. and I was generally bored out of my mind as a stay at home parent with small children. Especially when my husband would work from sun up to sun down. I was fine if he were around to do stuff with us and keep me company. but alone I could hardly cope.

I have never been a caller checker inner. Never been that interested with what my kids did when they were at someone elses house for sleep over or playdate. Did they have fun? was there blood shed? great. I love hearing about it from my kids but never cared to listen to their care providers play by play. things like little text messeges and pictures would not have gotten much of a response from me. I rarely call my kids while i am away from them for just a couple of days either. They are having fun. why interupt that. Also as a childcare provider I was irritated when someone would call for their happy child, who would then be reminded that they missed their mom and said happy child would go from perfectly content to misreable and crying for mom who could do very little over the phone. thanks mom.

Naps, if my babysitter were giving my kids afternoon naps (Especially at 3 and 6 years old, after I had asked her not to) I would be ticked off. I assume she is paying you right? it is your job to help the kids get through a rough afternoon. giving them an afternoon nap would totally wreck bedtime. If they do fall asleep try to limit naps to 20 to 30 minutes. Don;t wait for the kids to wake up on their own. give them a few minutes to rest well and then wake them up. an hour and half nap is a very long one. if they absolutely must sleep try to move it as early as possible (11:30 or 12) and again keep it short. we had a strict early bedtime. sticking to it was essential and one of the reasons they did not need naps. it was better for them and better for me. of course one nap could throw off our routien for a week!! Its a vicious cycle...trust me. and bedtime was my salvation. by the time 7:30 rolled around I was ready to snap. Needed a break really bad. If someone had given my kids a nap I would have wound up (even worse) out of sync kids to deal with when I was least able to. again vicious cycle. If I do not stick to a routien and get regular touch free intervals I tend to push my kids away more and they get clinger which stresses me out more on and on and on. My kids are 14, 10, and 7 and I still enfore a strict 8:30 bedtime for the all during the school year and 9-10 in the summer (they can sleep in in the summer.)

You sound a lot like me







. I am an introvert, my job is director of a neighborhood center that provides afterschool and summer programming for kids. Even though I rarely work directly with the kids, it still means the kids at the center are clamoring for hugs, attention, etc. In addition to all the admin stuff I do.

What that means when I get home is that I need time to transition from being in that loud noisy space to being home and in a sacred space. What that looks like is that my 4 yo knows most of the time that I need a good 20-30 mins to be left alone in silence. Generally my transition time ( I live 10 from work and since we share a car I either walk home or the hubby and kid pick me up so no real chance to transition on way home) is getting a drink of some sort, and either read or get online for a little while. Once I have done that I am good, I can play, read, etc. I don't get that time and it almost inevitably means crankly Mom and night proceeds badly.

My 4 yo is a lot more energetic and extroverted than my 18 yo ever was so its hard but as a parent I beleive we have to take care of ourselves first so we can take of our kids.

I believe in attachment parenting but as someone who has been parenting for 18 years, I think that its a two way street to meet everyone's needs.


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## staceychev (Mar 5, 2005)

Lilyka and Shay--I think I'm a lot like you, too.

I would consider myself a very attached parent. DD1 was in my bed until she was three, and nursed until she was four, never took a bottle. I wore her constantly. I'm on the same path with DD2. But, I'm an outgoing introvert who works as a high school teacher, and just like my "spirited child," transitions are rough on me. It's actually easier with a baby, because they're designed to make us want to cuddle them. But, when you just get back from work (and no, a commute by oneself is not a decompression), a 3 or 4 year old literally hanging off your body can make one feel quite anxious.

That said, OP, it sounds like you're doing an amazing job--I wish you could watch my babe when I have to give up maternity leave in September! I totally understand your need to vent!


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *staceychev* 
But, I'm an outgoing introvert who works as a high school teacher, and just like my "spirited child," transitions are rough on me.

Yes! You described me to a tee! I am outgoing when it comes to work, etc yet those interactions drain me, and I have to get into my own head to recharge. I am laughing because this past month I traveled a bit and the transitions were almost as hard on me as they were on my 4yo. One 2 day trip of having to be on took me almost a week to transtion back to normal life.

Sorry for derailing ever so slightly but your description totally resonated with me.

Shay


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
OP, I'm right there with you. I can never get my mind around it when I spend time with parents like that, who seem to find their children to be a bother for even the few hours they are with them.

Now that it's summer, I run into it more often in complete strangers. I homeschool my children and went to an indoor playground type of place earlier this week with some homeschool friends and their children. This one mom who was just there said, *"Ugh, summers, it's only been 3 days and I don't know what to do with my children."* We were all flabbergasted and had no idea how to respond. We love spending time with our children (though, of course, it doesn't hurt to have occasional breaks) and don't find it hard to have them home with us at all.

I do feel sorry for those sweet little children who cry because they miss their parents and am so grateful that they have such a caring caregiver during the day.

I hope you don't assume anyone who says the bolded thinks their children are a bother that they'd rather not deal with. Just last night I started a thread saying something very similar, and it has nothing to do with me not wanting to be with my kids or thinking they're a bother (I'm a WAHM so I'm very much used to caring for them all day every day). It's just a different rhythm and for some people it's hard to adjust, especially early in the summer when it's new.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
So this means stuff like laundry, vacuuming, any major food prep for the week (baking, soups, etc.), scrubbing the bathroom, mopping, paying bills, dropping off or picking up dry cleaning, going to the post office, you name it--it all has to be done on the weekends. If one of us a weekday to catch up on this stuff, then it means that we'll have a weekend day where ALL THREE OF US can do something fun together as a family, instead of struggling to balance chores with family time.

Respectfully, all that stuff has to be done on the weekends in lots of families, including families with a SAHP. I totally agree that even parents (all kinds of parents) need a break, and I don't begrudge them that at all (I take frequent guilt-free breaks myself), but what you describe above isn't just a WOH thing.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 

Respectfully, all that stuff has to be done on the weekends in lots of families, including families with a SAHP. I totally agree that even parents (all kinds of parents) need a break, and I don't begrudge them that at all (I take frequent guilt-free breaks myself), but what you describe above isn't just a WOH thing.

Yes, of course. I was just responding to the "I can't imagine why anyone would still send their child to care when they have a day off!" sentiment. One of the reasons that we might do that is because it will open up a chunk of the weekend for some quality family time. (My perspective is also colored by experience: I was a SAHP for dd's first two years, and I was able to get SO much more done during the day--she napped, for starters, and I could also do things like laundry and mopping when she was awake. Of course, things might be different in families with many kids, or if parents are homeschooling, or whatever.)


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

even as a stay at home mom I cherished times when my kids would go away for the day. It was the only time I could get any house work done efficiently. it wasn't that I didn/;t love them, wasn't attatched to them or hated being with them. it was the opposite actually. A few hours of work time meant my free time was really free. My kids are not in daycare now but if they were I would likely still send them to daycare at least half the day on my day off (I get tuesdays and every other friday off) so i could get all my work done and then be really focused on them when they wer ehome rather than be distracted and cranky the entire time i was with them.


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