# Let's discuss the pros and cons of a Child-Led Weaning forum (everyone welcome)



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

I'm starting this thread in hopes for all of us breastfeeding mamas (parent-led, child-led, undecided, any age child) to discuss our opinions on the possibility of a new child-led weaning forum. Cynthia is not convinced that it is necessary. I am asking for your input. Pro or con. *What do you think is best for our breastfeeding community here at MDC?* Let's try our best to get a healthy discussion going without flaming each other.


----------



## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

I would like to see all sustained breastfeeders on one board. I'm not crazy about creating so many divisions between us. I genuinely feel that what unites us far outweighs what divides us and I fear spreading our resources and attention too thin, across too many forums.

Kama, letting Bonnie (who is 4 y/o in 6 weeks) lead the way on this.


----------



## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

I would like to see all sustained breastfeeders on one board. I'm not crazy about creating so many divisions between us. I genuinely feel that what unites us far outweighs what divides us and I fear spreading our resources and attention too thin, across too many forums.

I completely agree!

I don't think a whole forum is needed. I think there can just be individual threads...isn't there one already for older nurslings and another for child-led weaning? Are those not working well enough?

Dina


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Personally, I am for a CLW forum. There is an increasing sense of discomfort in this forum.....there are those of us who are child-led weaning who want to avoid the hurtful comments and insinuations from those who don't support nursing a child past 3yrs (let alone to 7 or 8). I have no problem with a mama gently and respectfully weaning her child past 3 years (honestly) if that is what works best for her family.....that still fits here IMHO. But the forum is being pushed further and further into the mainstream realm of parenting and we are swaying away from what MDC is all about in the first place. MDC is starting to look like iVillage and, frankly, I do feel threatened because I don't want to see that happen here.

On the one hand, I can see how it would be beneficial for all forums to be one....we could all be here to give newcomers well-rounded perspective. And in a perfect forum we can all support each other and share with one another whatever our weaning style. We can open our minds and be open to other's perspective. This is how MDC once was, and this is how I would love to see it. But I am finding an increasing number of mothers who insinuate that breastfeeding past 3 years is disgusting...this is a perspective that we have shoved down our throats IRL. That makes it hard to share and support when we know that there are heads shaking from the very same people we are open-heartedly supporting.

On the other hand, many are here simply for the support in an otherwise very anti-breastfeeding beyond 2yrs society. There are times and places where debate and perspective is healthy and welcome....and there are other times when all we need is a "safe" place for support where we feel completely welcome and supported by the community *as a whole*.

As far as I see it, the division is not going to go away. I don't foresee us coming to an agreement that we will ALL respect each other's differences and support each other WHATEVER their choices.....that includes supporting forced weaning techniques including abrupt cut-off or placing a bad-tasting deterrent on the nipple, or supporting spanking as a means of discipline when a child is hitting Mama because he is refused the breast, or giving a child over the counter drugs to sedate him, etc. etc. I cannot support those things and, because we are on an alternative parenting site like MDC, I don't feel that I should have to be so politically correct to the point of welcoming the very same styles of parenting that we at MDC do not advocate. And even though this is a NATURAL family living site, not everyone is going to agree on what that means in relation to breastfeeding.

There are currently 3 breastfeeding forums: Getting Started, Support and Advocacy, and Extended Breastfeeding. Because there are 3 separate forums doesn't mean that we are not allowed to post on the others or that we are all separate of one another. Many of us post on "Support and Advocacy" AND "Extended Breastfeeding" (the 2 realms do cross one another) without any confusion or problems between the two. Why not add a "Child-Led Weaning" forum?


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

If there are not major reasons against a CLW forum I would really like one. I would really like a place I could go and see NO threads about weaning, except celebrations of a child choosing to make that step themselves.

Kay


----------



## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Michelle, we were typing at the same time









I believe that a CLW forum is an important and valuable addition to MDC. The CLW thread is one of the *few* threads in EB I have felt comfortable. I am getting more than a little tired of weaning threads, people referring to extended nursing a 10 mos. old, and insinsuations that nursing beyond toddlerhood is "frivolous" or "beyond the call of duty".

I want to talk about and hear about the struggles and joys of nursing an older child. I wouldn't want to post something about nursing my 7 or 8 y/o dd and have people respond with "well, cut her off already". Society in general does that with babies, the minute nursing gets a little complicated (for some people) "it is time to wean..you've nursed *long enough*.

MDC should be, of all places, in support of a CLW forum for moms who don't have a time table, don't want to wean and just want to discuss nursing. I don't understand why child led weaning is considered unimportant or unnecessay. Sure, it is wonderful to nurse until a yaer, or two, or three, BUT, the need for support and connection with like-minded mamas doesn't end there.


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thirtycats*
I completely agree!

I don't think a whole forum is needed. I think there can just be individual threads...isn't there one already for older nurslings and another for child-led weaning? Are those not working well enough?

Dina

Yes, there are 2 threads. If you look at the number of posts, and the diversity of discussion in both threads, you will see that there is a need.


----------



## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

I don't foresee us coming to an agreement that we will ALL respect each other's differences and support each other WHATEVER their choices.....that includes supporting forced weaning techniques including abrupt cut-off or placing a bad-tasting deterrent on the nipple, or supporting spanking as a means of discipline when a child is hitting Mama because he is refused the breast, or giving a child over the counter drugs to sedate him, etc. etc. I cannot support those things and, because we are on an alternative parenting site like MDC, I don't feel that I should have to be so politically correct to the point of welcoming the very same styles of parenting that we at MDC do not advocate. And even though this is a NATURAL family living site, not everyone is going to agree on what that means in relation to breastfeeding.
I think we all have different opinions here. I think it is fine to disagree about something. I think it is fine to sit there and say "I think that's cruel. You shouldn't do that to a child. Or I think that's really weird. You shouldn't do that". Hopefully, we can say it in a more polite way, but I don't think we should have to sit there and pretend we agree with what everyone else does. I don't think we should have to keep our opinions quiet.







:

BUT...I think it is totally out of line to sit there and say certain types of discussions shouldn't even exist here.







Who are you to judge? I mean where are we going to draw the line? Who is going to sit here and decide what is AP enough? What is natural enough?

I am so sick of this!!!!!!







I want to scream. I'm hearing this nonsense from both ends. We have FF moms wanting us to take out any negative discussions about formula and CLW moms wanting to take out anything that is not CLW.

Look people...you are never going to find a perfect message board website with everyone agreeing with your exact viewpoint It AINT gonna happen. There's always going to be someone who offends you...someone that makes you feel weird...someone who makes you feel guilty....someone who does something to their child that you feel is cruel.

You know, even if there was a CLW forum...eventually there'd be fighting there too. Eventually, you guys would find out that you all don't believe the exact same things. Kind of like the idea of us all being one color on this planet so there'd be no racism. It wouldn't work. Eventually, we'd find something else different and fight about that.

To sit there and say that people who disagree with you belong on ivillage.com is really unfair. Do you really think I could go on that board and talk about wanting to nurse my child until he is 4? Well, I probably could. And maybe one day I will. But I find much more support here. Because this is a message board for attachment parenting and natural parenting. But we all have different levels of observence. Some of us are very very very devout AP and others of us are middle of the road.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe only one type of mother belongs at mothering.com. If anyone wants to show me a list of rules that says only mothers that believe a certain way are welcome here....I will gladly pack my bags and take my business elsewhere.

Dina


----------



## callmemama (May 7, 2002)

I would love to see a CLW forum for the reasons already mentioned! Is there some "volume count" required before a separate forum can be obtained? IMHO, CLW'ers are doing what comes naturally (for some of us







) - its hard enough being "on the fringe" in society without being there at MDC too!!


----------



## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Yes, callemama, that is a good way to say it. I don't want to be treated like I am on the fringe, a "saint" or "fanatical".


----------



## Messy Nessie (Apr 13, 2004)

My DD is a young'un, only 7.5 months, but I lurk on the EBF forum b.c someday I hope to be there!

The beauty of discussion on message boards is that you are able to connect and learn from people who don't necessarily share your POV. Yes, there may be a lot of help with weaning threads posted here, but think of what an opportunity to explain the benefits of CLW or gentle weaning to a mama who might not consider it.

If the forum were to become segregated there might be less interaction and limited opportunity for mamas to learn from those who are doing CLW.

I, for one plan to nurse my DD as long as I can. I aspire to CLW and I frequently lurk on the CLW and older nursling threads to learn more about it. Before coming here, I couldn't imagine nursing an older child. However, reading the beautiful stories posted on that thread has really opened my mind. And I have learned so much about the benefits! I fear that if the forum was segregated, the opportunity to educate and open the mind of someone else like me.

Anyway just my humble two cents!


----------



## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

Is there some "volume count" required before a separate forum can be obtained? IMHO, CLW'ers are doing what comes naturally (for some of us ) - its hard enough being "on the fringe" in society without being there at MDC too!!
And that's all the more reason for us to learn to get along with each other here...and to accept our differences.

We're all feeling on the fringe of society...whether we are nursing a nine-year old or thirteen month old. We need to support each other. We need to talk about our differences and learn from our differences...not shy away from them.

Dina


----------



## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Okay,

I do see that CLW threads are massive. So maybe there does need to be a forum for that particular group.

But can we please please stop with the attempt to censor and banish those that are different from us?

Dina


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thirtycats*
I think we all have different opinions here. I think it is fine to disagree about something. I think it is fine to sit there and say "I think that's cruel. You shouldn't do that to a child. Or I think that's really weird. You shouldn't do that". Hopefully, we can say it in a more polite way, but I don't think we should have to sit there and pretend we agree with what everyone else does. I don't think we should have to keep our opinions quiet.







:

BUT...I think it is totally out of line to sit there and say certain types of discussions shouldn't even exist here.







Who are you to judge? I mean where are we going to draw the line? Who is going to sit here and decide what is AP enough? What is natural enough?

I am so sick of this!!!!!!







I want to scream. I'm hearing this nonsense from both ends. We have FF moms wanting us to take out any negative discussions about formula and CLW moms wanting to take out anything that is not CLW.

Look people...you are never going to find a perfect message board website with everyone agreeing with your exact viewpoint It AINT gonna happen. There's always going to be someone who offends you...someone that makes you feel weird...someone who makes you feel guilty....someone who does something to their child that you feel is cruel.

You know, even if there was a CLW forum...eventually there'd be fighting there too. Eventually, you guys would find out that you all don't believe the exact same things. Kind of like the idea of us all being one color on this planet so there'd be no racism. It wouldn't work. Eventually, we'd find something else different and fight about that.

To sit there and say that people who disagree with you belong on ivillage.com is really unfair. Do you really think I could go on that board and talk about wanting to nurse my child until he is 4? Well, I probably could. And maybe one day I will. But I find much more support here. Because this is a message board for attachment parenting and natural parenting. But we all have different levels of observence. Some of us are very very very devout AP and others of us are middle of the road.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe only one type of mother belongs at mothering.com. If anyone wants to show me a list of rules that says only mothers that believe a certain way are welcome here....I will gladly pack my bags and take my business elsewhere.

Dina

thirtycats, I guess some of us here just have a gentler heart than you would expect. I personally am not so open to arguments here in this forum (with the exception of this thread), it creates negative wasted energy and hurts feelings. I personally find this exhausting to have to defend my own style of parenting in the very same forum where I come for comfort. Some people get off on debate wherever and whenever, but not for me, not here. If we are always debating then it is always going to be one big ugly cat fight. And to be honest with you, I used to think this forum was once pretty damn near perfect. What was so perfect about it was that everyone was open-hearted and open-minded and accepted everyone for who they were, whether they were different than themselves or not. Diversity is beautiful. Controversy is not.


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

thirtycats, we posted at the same time. My last post was in response to your prior argument directed at me.

......ugh







....I need to log off now.


----------



## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

I see both pros and cons.

But, I do think if the CLW mamas feel like they need their own area here, especially mamas of older children, then they probably should have it.

It does seem a little sad that it would need to be separated. I do admit I don't read all the threads here. But I can't recall seeing specific posts that implied that there is something wrong with nursing beyond any certain age. Just because I may post that I am not sure I myself will nurse past 3 or 4 if my child does not selfwean by then, does not mean that I don't see fully CLW as an ideal and fully support those who choose to do so. Perhaps I am not understanding the issue well enough. Is there such a big difference between a CLW mama and one who makes a contract with their 3 or 4 year old and has a weaning party? After some recent threads here, I am still a bit confused on the subtleties of CLW, anyway. I'm sure I am not the only one.

I do understand the discomfort with threads discussing not-so-gentle weaning techniques, or the like. But do you think having a separate forum will really cause those to go away? I am worried that what it will do is make the CLW perspective to seem more fringe and keep lots of mams from benefiting from what you have to offer.


----------



## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

Some people get off on debate wherever and whenever, but not for me, not here. If we are always debating then it is always going to be one big ugly cat fight. And to be honest with you, I used to think this forum was once pretty damn near perfect. What was so perfect about it was that everyone was open-hearted and open-minded and accepted everyone for who they were, whether they were different than themselves or not. Diversity is beautiful. Controversy is not.
So, you're willing to accept people that are different from you? Are you willing to let people wean the way they want to wean and not tell them they are cruel and/or tell them MDC is not the right place for them?

Someone started a thread asking for advice about how to wean their child and you came along and told them what they were doing was not okay and not acceptable at MDC. How is that not starting a debate? How is that accepting opinions that are different from your own?

Is what you really want a place where everyone will accept every single thing you say, but you're allowed to question and debate what they say?

You know what I've learned lately...If I want IRL mainstream people to accept the fact that I cosleep and am bf a 34 month old...I'm going to have to accept that they CIO and weaned at 6 months. No matter how much I disagree with it...no matter how much I don't like it.

And if you want the less crunchy MDC people to accept the fact that you're breastfeeding an eight-year-old...you're going to need to accept that some of them want to wean their fifteen month old and some want to put herbs on their nipple to wean their three-year old.

I'm sorry. Unless someone says I'm breaking the rules by being here...I'm not leaving. I'm not going to crawl back under my rock so you can have your perfect message board back. You know...it kind of reminds me of when we went to England. My family thought the diversity there was so nice. But than a "sweet" little old British lady told us about how things used to be so much better...so much better before all the Blacks and Indians and etc. moved there. Now things were too complicated. Her perfect little world was gone.

Dina


----------



## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Thirtycats, I'm not seeing how it is necessary or appropriate to turn this into a personal attack against Mother Sunshine.

I am getting rather uncomfortable with you comparing FF to CLW and even more so with you comparing Mother Sunshine to a terribly racist person.









I'm sure there's a more calm, respectful way we can discuss this.


----------



## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Um, yeah, I think there's a subtle difference between being a racist and thinking that MDC, a natural parenting board, should be a place for child-led or at least child-respectful (gentle) weaning.


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Deleted for the good of the community

Sorry everyone for the negativity...


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Messy Nessie*
I fear that if the forum was segregated, the opportunity to educate and open the mind of someone else like me.

Anyway just my humble two cents!









Messy Nessie, thank you for your 2 cents.







I was hoping to hear from mamas like you too, to help give a different perspective. My question to you is this.....
Do you think that you would be just as willing (or maybe even more willing?) to participate in a child-led weaning forum as you are in the extended breastfeeding forum? In the child-led weaning forum there would be no age boundaries. Anyone who is planning to CLW, or wanting to learn more, would be equally welcome regardless of their child's age.


----------



## Mommy To Baby Roni (Mar 21, 2003)

Quote:

I would like to see all sustained breastfeeders on one board. I'm not crazy about creating so many divisions between us. I genuinely feel that what unites us far outweighs what divides us and I fear spreading our resources and attention too thin, across too many forums.
I completely agree.

While I'm only on this forum sporadically and only recently feel I have some experience to contribute, I think a separate forum would be hypocritical to the acceptance and support that we all long for by coming to MDC. It, imo, is similar to wanting a separate forum for those that vaccinate, those that selectively vaccinate and those that don't vaccinate at all. We are supposed to all be supporting each other for being different from what mainstream society tells us to be like, not separating ourselves from each other because of our differences or opinions about breastfeeding longer than our society tells us we should be.

Do those that are decided on CLW not want to be supportive of those that are "planning" on not clw or those that are undecided by separating themselves? To ask for separation from other long-term bf'ers, yet say they are welcome in your newly founded forum, doesn't feel very welcoming and supportive, to be honest. And, if a regular in the new CLW forum one day decides they want to parent-lead wean are they to leave the CLW forum and those they have bonded with because they have chosen a different path? Are they then to return to the "old" forum in order to keep posting?

I guess the bottom line is that I feel that bf'ing support at MDC, in general, would be highly compromised by this division. The current separate bf forums do not exist because of difference in views on bf. This new forum would. I think that the majority on this forum ARE clw advocates and there would be a lot missing from this forum if the majority were to leave because they allow a few to make them feel uncomfortable. Honestly, when I first came to this forum I thought I would find it more supportive for a new ebf'er and instead felt overwhelmed by the clw'ing bf'ers. I feel that way from weaning books, as well. However, I did keep going because of the support I got here. I recently posted about it, but only 6 people read it and no one responded. Then, I have most people in RL rolling their eyes when nursing a toddler comes up in conversation (ya know, that whole independence bs). I'm trying to hang in here because there's really no other active ebf support board that I have found with very experienced mommas. I am completely supportive of clw, though I don't think we'll make it that far. Then again, I never thought I'd nurse past one year. I'm still walking the path, not sure where it's leading to. Kwim? It's disheartening to know that those I'm here looking to for advice & support want to go elsewhere.


----------



## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

Thirtycats, I refrained from quoting your hurtful comments from your website out of respect for your privacy (and because I thought it would be too cruel and on-the-spot), even though you initially gave me permission then withdrew your permission.

Anyone is welcome to go to my website themselves and read it. I just hope they understand the context of the "hurtful comments" and take the time to read the whole website before making judgements.

And if you're trying to keep things private...um, why did you go on this public board and announce to everyone that I withdrew my permission to quote from my website? That withdrawel was in a private email. I didn't know it was ethical to bring private discussions onto a public board....

Oh well.

Dina


----------



## Messy Nessie (Apr 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother_sunshine*
Messy Nessie, thank you for your 2 cents.







I was hoping to hear from mamas like you too, to help give a different perspective. My question to you is this.....
Do you think that you would be just as willing (or maybe even more willing?) to participate in a child-led weaning forum as you are in the extended breastfeeding forum? In the child-led weaning forum there would be no age boundaries. Anyone who is planning to CLW, or wanting to learn more, would be equally welcome regardless of their child's age.

Thank you!









See, the thing is that I am still working on being comfortable with all the implications of CLW. That is my journey... and if the EBF forum was segregated I believe I would find myself posting in the "nursing beyond infancy" rather than CLW. Because I am not yet completely committed to CLW. Since NBI would, by default, become the "PLW" forum and I would miss the differing points of view presented by the "PLWs" and the "CLWs".

And what happens if a mama is committed to CLW, but is pushed beyond her comfort level. Then she has to leave a forum where they have found support for so long and start posting somewhere else... And if the EBF forum is unsupportative of nursing older children, as stated from mamas on this thread, if the said child is 5, 6, 7 or older, where will that mama go?

I have to say that during my breastfeeding journey I have weathered rough times. And a few times I have considered weaning when things got really painful or uncomfortable. I was able to overcome it, but things will get rough again and as my DD gets older I will look to the EBF forum for support. When my DD is 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 and this happens, if all the CLWs are somewhere else, who will see my post in EBF and advocate the benefits of continuing? Help me to remember all the beautiful reasons to keep on plugging? It makes me feel sad that in a moment of darkness I might make a wrong decision because I don't have anyone supporting me to do otherwise. (IRL or OL)

I guess the jist of what I am trying to say is that having everyone on one board causes people to push themselves outside of their comfort zone. Discussion should always be respectful- but it is wonderful! And the opportunity to advocate for CLW will be diminished if it is segregated from the EBF forum.

Of course, I am not in the shoes of any of the mamas who are actually living CLW with an older baby/child and I have not been here very long... but I don't understand the point of someone coming here to debate CLW or discuss anything but gentle weaning. For example, not everyone in the Nighttime Parenting/Family Bed forum cosleeps, but no one starts debates about cosleeping or advocates CIO.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I would like there to be a CLW forum.

I'm not particularly interested in advocating CLW in "looking for weaning suggestions" threads, and I'm sure the posters of those threads aren't looking for that either.

I don't know why it has to be divisive to meet people's differing needs.

Some people want to wean their kids at 3 mos./18 mos./age 7. The fact of the matter is there's a whole lot more info/support available for those folks than for those who are CLW. I don't see why we can't offer CLW mamas a place to discuss their issues/offer support--especially at MDC--b/c as far as I know, this is IT in terms of finding any kind of support for CLW.


----------



## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother_sunshine*
But the forum is being pushed further and further into the mainstream realm of parenting and we are swaying away from what MDC is all about in the first place. MDC is starting to look like iVillage and, frankly, I do feel threatened because I don't want to see that happen here.


ITA with the post above. I am for the child-led-weaning forum, because I think CLW is part of NFL. and as a side comment, I totally agree that we are becoming more and more mainstream in every forum here at MDC. suddenly we cannot speak openly about circ'ing in the anti-circ'ing forum, or discuss the dangers of formula is the breastfeeding forums. I just feel this is the only place where "we" are the normal ones.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

it was suggested i post this here, rather than in the petition thread:

'i also think it can be covered under extended bfing. when my dd was 6, i was a clw'er. however, at 7 1/2 i said i didn't want to any more. does that negate all the years i nursed her, because my stringent philosophy took a blow irl?

i'm still not intending to wean either toddler, & we're going strong, but i could decide my circumstances changed at some point... does it make me a different person, with a different compartment to fit me in? i don't know if putting us all in different boxes is a good thing; i am the same person not intending to wean my ds's, who did wean my dd, but then for 7 years didn't intend to.

i think threads for people who believe in clw is a great idea; but a separate forum puts us in opposing camps, which is silly. changing your mind on such a personal issue shouldn't make you feel like you are booted out of a club. someone who maintains their child weaned themselves at 10 months would be welcome, but me happily nursing for over 7 years- get my heartless butt outta there.

i mean, really. all because of fanaticism to an ideal. it's a great ideal, here i am nursing my nipples off with no intention of stopping the tap, but because i don't apologize for saying no at 7 to a previous child (and in all honesty, 7 is prolly about where i'll stop the guys, if they are not done yet- it's a good number to me & i am comfortable just-about-there... but these are my thoughts at nearly two and going on four, & i cannot promise i won't be nursing at 12, or that i won't just want to STOP next year & gently- again that word! but here at least in the proper context!- lead weaning. my dog did it, apes do it, i don't find it horrifyingly unnatural or cruel.)

is it so in need of defense that people need to congregate to keep any dissenting messages out? how are we to learn from each other if we are always removing ourselves out one forum?

example: i am not a tcs'er, but i am glad i''ve had their thoughts to read. i thought about that today, when my ds told me that at preschool they made him wash his hands with antibacterial scrub, which to his excema, is like rubbing alcohol in an open wound. when he told them it hurt they didn't listen. wouldn't a little exposure to tcs philosophy have helped his well-meaning, generally loving teachers? even if i can't join the tcs club in agreement with every tenet, how much more enriched i am by having engaged in discussion with them.

if clw has value as a philosophy, it is worth sharing with the extended nursing board in general. if your commitment cannot stand up to anyone saying 'hey, i am kind of tired of this' to their own 3 yr old & you feel too threatened to continue, i wonder!

believe me, my deciding to wean my dd was PURELY between me & her. nobody irl and nobody on any message board in the nastiest pm (if they'd had them back then, lol) had a bit to do with it. that would be the equivalent of someone telling me & my dh whether we should have children, or how to have sex, or something. so PERSONAL!

i can support people in clw even if i am devil's advocate in saying i don't think we need (i said 'we'! i am one of you, today!) a forum just for that. but i doubt i'd cruise much by a special forum. and considering how few of us have had nurslings past 6 (i thought it was me, respondentmom & firemom- copslass maybe? 'the teens are weaned', lol, i love that sig- but there is someone nursing a 12 yr old? impressive) are there enough of us you wanna drive one off?

sorry this is so long, sigh, but i've had quite the nursing career now & if anyone's boobs are entitled to a lengthy opinion...

love, shalom, & namaste to ALL you extended nursing mamas, suse'
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++

btw, to answer this: 'Anyone who is planning to CLW, or wanting to learn more, would be equally welcome regardless of their child's age.'

but i'm not planning, i'm doing it, with the possibility of weaning if i feel it is best, in the future. 'wanting to learn more'? at the risk of sounding like more of a know-it-all than i do already, what is someone determined in purpose, who's 'decided' to clw, with a 6 month old baby, going to teach me beyond dogma?

see, i'm not welcome in the forum. not hostile to the philosophy, doing it now & did it for over 7 years, but because imho i acted correctly by weaning in that instance, & iyhos i blew it horribly, i am not 'one of you'.

i don't know anyone here who needed support the way respondentmom did, & she found support hanging out in extended bfing. the few naysaying trolls were gently told to bugger off.

i mentioned 'secession from the union' in my farewell post to the petition thread, lol, and i see enough parallels that it's worth repeating. i have many ap-ing friends on & offline that have weaned at 3ish or so, & while i wouldn't do it their way, i would feel bad judging them & putting them in a different category of parenting.

is there so little to fight for in promoting bfing that we have time & energy to waste shaking our heads & muttering together over the dreadful moms who weaned at *gasp* three?

suse


----------



## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

[

Quote:

i think threads for people who believe in clw is a great idea; but a separate forum puts us in opposing camps, which is silly. changing your mind on such a personal issue shouldn't make you feel like you are booted out of a club. someone who maintains their child weaned themselves at 10 months would be welcome, but me happily nursing for over 7 years- get my heartless butt outta there.










Quote:

is it so in need of defense that people need to congregate to keep any dissenting messages out? how are we to learn from each other if we are always removing ourselves out one forum?










Quote:

sorry this is so long, sigh, but i've had quite the nursing career now & if anyone's boobs are entitled to a lengthy opinion...
:LOL

Quote:

love, shalom, & namaste to ALL you extended nursing mamas, suse'
Suse, I hope this doesn't make you uncomfortable...but I could totally fall in love with you. You're so awesome!!

Dina


----------



## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

Well I'm going to give my input just because it was asked of all of us. But I really feel that it is best left to those who are firmly about CLW.

Honestly...I also hate to see the division. I am one of those that doesn't fit into any of the groups. I bf past a year (so no mainstream groups - not that I would care to be involved with them anyway) but I've said that my daughter CLW at 2 and I've been told that isn't possible. It seems there are all these different unwritten rules....different people have different definitions for all these things. I do plan to wean my son around 2 this time for reasons that some of you would be outraged by...but I'm comfortable about it. Ok so he's now 14 months and in many areas I would be the extremist for still bfing. But then on the Extended forum I am weird for wishing to wean around 2...even though I plan to do it in a slow gentle respectful way.

I do agree with the comments about how MDC overall has shifted. I've been really upset about this over the past few weeks. I've been a mom for over 16 years and Mothering Magazine was always such a comfort to me. Now the forums have turned into something different. When I first found the forums people would stand up and say if something was a certain way. It wasn't a...well whatever you want to do and if it makes you happy it's fine type place. It wasn't all about being PC. Women would try to support each other in their parenting and give supporting information so that maybe those struggling could find another way. Rather than to just say...well maybe you should nightwean or maybe you should read a sleep training book - or whatever that might work best for mom even if it's not best for baby.

The Schooling at Home and Beyond is filled with moms of very young children schooling them at home. It's becoming increasinly more difficult for those of us unschoolers (of "older children") to find places with others. Because of this - I can understand the CLW mom's wanting their own area. Sometimes I wish there was a separate forum for unschoolers.

So in all my ramblings...I support whatever you all feel best. I'm just not sure where I would fit. I've noticed that all CLW moms don't agree too. Some don't think it's possible for CLW before a certain age, others do. Some think it's ok to have certain limits with the child's nursing and others don't.


----------



## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

The following is a quote from my post on another thread. I thought I should post it here too. It is in response to a question posed by another poster asking, (*disclaimer - possibly not exact quote :LOL) "Am I missing all the huge threads where people are bashing our [CLW] position?"

"Yes, you are. Everyday we have to deal with someone rolling their eyes at us, saying we let our children walk all over us, pointing out emphatically how much they don't agree w/what we're doing, making all kinds of hurtful and rude assumptions about us and our children and attacking us and our position - as you seem to be doing now. I don't know why everyone in the EB forum seems to feel so threatened by our _mere presence_ there, but they are and we are riduculed and "attacked" in a very passive aggressive way every day there because of it.

Why can't we mention anything about CLW w/o something like this following? Why, when I do not judge you or anyone else for the way they're nursing, do you feel on the defense by my _mere presence_?"

While this was in direct response to specific poster I think it still communicates why CLW don't feel comfortable in the EB forum and why the need for a CLW has become necessary.


----------



## Messy Nessie (Apr 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
The following is a quote from my post on another thread. I thought I should post it here too. It is in response to a question posed by another poster asking, (*disclaimer - possibly not exact quote :LOL) "Am I missing all the huge threads where people are bashing our [CLW] position?"

"Yes, you are. Everyday we have to deal with someone rolling their eyes at us, saying we let our children walk all over us, pointing out emphatically how much they don't agree w/what we're doing, making all kinds of hurtful and rude assumptions about us and our children and attacking us and our position - as you seem to be doing now. I don't know why everyone in the EB forum seems to feel so threatened by our _mere presence_ there, but they are and we are riduculed and "attacked" in a very passive aggressive way every day there because of it.

Why can't we mention anything about CLW w/o something like this following? Why, when I do not judge you or anyone else for the way they're nursing, do you feel on the defense by my _mere presence_?"

While this was in direct response to specific poster I think it still communicates why CLW don't feel comfortable in the EB forum and why the need for a CLW has become necessary.

naking
wow, i think it is so sad that people roll their eyes at you and make you feel that way.







i cannot believe that happens here, at mothering, of all places. i am still working on committing to clw because of my own hangups about my body, but i would never dare project them on to someone else!


----------



## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Messy Nessie*
naking
wow, i think it is so sad that people roll their eyes at you and make you feel that way.








i cannot believe that happens here, at mothering, of all places. i am still working on committing to clw because of my own hangups about my body, but i would never dare project them on to someone else!









Thanks for your kind worrds Messy. ITA w/you. Honestly, I'm just happy when a woman is nursing period. Of course the longer the better - but CLW is what I have found is right _for me and my children_. I don't judge women for not doing it. It is too bad that the moment someone sees that I'm doing CLW they assume all kinds of things about me, my parenting style and think they know my feelings and thoughts (i.e. that I'm judging them for not doing CLW). Prejudging only hurts everyone.


----------



## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Well, I'm a newbie to this forum, but I would prefer that CLW not be spun off into a separate forum, purely for my own benefit. My nursing relationship will probably fall between CLW and gentle weaning when I return to hospital work when DS turns 2 and my schedule suddenly jumps to 80 hrs/week. I'm still a big believer in CLW and am appreciative of the discussions about nursing older children, as my education on this matter has benefitted immensely from reading threads like that, from being exposed to moms nursing older kids, etc. I would definitely lose out if there was a separate forum, as I don't think I would fit in enough to be comfortable posting there.

I recognize that a lot of moms would like a separate area, and I can understand that. And I've seen how huge the big CLW thread is (I haven't tackled that one!) But I think that all the other moms who visit this forum would lose out on some interesting discussions. Of course, I came here from the BBB, so I'm more used to a wider range of (mostly respectful) opinions.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

mama natch, you are quoting (well, paraphrasing, but you got it close







) me on the petition thread.

'attacked & ridiculed'? where? i wasn't being rhetorical when i asked, but you seem to be answering me by using my own post! if you find these threads tell me, so i can gently kick some ass! but you said *i* am. how is someone WHO NURSED A SEVEN YEAR OLD ridiculing child-led weaning in practice, if not sanctified principle?

oh, thirtycats- how can you find common ground with someone with merely five? we are from different worlds. a person with thirty cats could never find true support in a forum with a five cat person.









ps in over 4 years of posting openly & blatantly about nursing an older child here, i have never gotten ONE bit of questioning or negativity, let alone been ridiculed or attacked. this place has been a tremendous support; i had long since weaned my dd when i got here, but all the positive response has been lovely. i can't say it has affected any decisions about my length of nursing these toddlers: i do what i do & feel is best, & even my dh is barely allowed suggestions, lol, but it sure has been nice to have those virtual pats on the back when irl all those years ago they were sure slow in coming.

seriously. anybody who is getting a hard time, pm me & i've got your back. i had no idea this was going on here, & am surprised firemom hasn't ripped someone's typing arm off thru the monitor (have y'all seen her? she is *in shape*!) perhaps, like myself, she has not stumbled across any of these threads. if the boards have gotten so 'mainstream' as the complaint is wont to be these days, that extended nursers & clw'ers are getting harassed, that ought to be addressed before we worry about new fora.

suse


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

My apologies to all CLW Mamas. I didn't foresee this thread getting so ugly (and the emotions I would feel in response). I'm really sorry.


----------



## callmemama (May 7, 2002)

I've just finished reading this thread, and I appreciate all the input - no, I appreciate the input that was kind and respectful! I particularly appreciate Suseyblue's comments about changing her mind on CLW when her child was 7. We are allowed to and we do change, but CLW as I interpret it, is for those currently planning to let their child self-wean. And we are the only ones that know if we "fit the category", so to speak. But I do see the dilemna of not having support for nursing an older child. This is what we as CLW'ers are struggling with here at MDC and IRL.

BTW, if I'm curious about a subject, I feel comfortable lurking; wouldn't others do the same in a separate forum?


----------



## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother_sunshine*
My apologies to all CLW Mamas. I didn't foresee this thread getting so ugly (and the emotions I would feel in response). I'm really sorry.









I'm sorry too Michelle. I am taking Ben outside, but I will be back


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Suseyblue, I just PM'd you.....


----------



## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

I very strongly believe in child led weaning. People who choose to GENTLY wean their children don't bother me, and I think we can all get along in one big friendly forum. This recent trend here at mdc of dividing us up into separate little groups is really bothersome, and I think it needs to stop, now!


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Thanks for your support Joan









I too need to get outside. All of this is making me too groggy. :LOL


----------



## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

i think threads for people who believe in clw is a great idea; but a separate forum puts us in opposing camps, which is silly. changing your mind on such a personal issue shouldn't make you feel like you are booted out of a club. someone who maintains their child weaned themselves at 10 months would be welcome, but me happily nursing for over 7 years- get my heartless butt outta there.

i mean, really. all because of *fanaticism* to an ideal. it's a great ideal, here i am nursing my nipples off with no intention of stopping the tap, but because i don't apologize for saying no at 7 to a previous child....
I totally relate to the sentiment here. I nursed my dd for several years and in the end I did give her a respectful-of-her-feelings nudge toward weaning.

Child psychologist Jan Hunt (whose child weaned at 7...don't know if CL or mother-led or somewhere in between)
writes:

"Nursing as long as we did was not my original expectation. When Jason was your son's age, I would have been amazed to know how long it would continue!...

... I didn't know at that time that nursing in many so-called "primitive" or natural societies lasts an average of 5 to 7 years, as it still does in many societies today. Nursing less is actually abnormal from that perspective, and it is my belief that this length of time was the norm for the tens of millions of years before we became "civilized". *Deliberate weaning by the mother is definitely a modern trend.*...

...consider nursing as a decision "in progress", allowing for continuation for as long as it is working for you and your son, and without remorse if you ever need to stop."
http://www.naturalchild.com/advice/q64.html

But I was going along, thinking how wonderful and eloquent this post I quoted (at the top of this post) was, and how much it spoke for me...and then I read the word *fanaticism.* And I found that very hurtful. Because what is painful to me in this kind of discussion, is what I have seen here at MDC recently.....moms who are nursing in terms of years, not months, but still can't seem to avoid using hurtful judgemental words to describe others who make a different choice. I did give dd a gentle push toward weaning, a nudge that she was ready for and accepted happily, but that does NOT mean I think those who practice 100% CLW are fanatics! Nothing could be further from the truth.


----------



## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtwice*
that does NOT mean I think those who practice 100% CLW are fanatics! Nothing could be further from the truth.

Thanks Momtwice.







You hit the nail right on the head there!

Suse, thanks for saying the quoting was close enough! :LOL I wasn't sure if it's against the rules to quote someone from another thread. That's why I did it that way.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
in over 4 years of posting openly & blatantly about nursing an older child here, i have never gotten ONE bit of questioning or negativity, let alone been ridiculed or attacked. this place has been a tremendous support; i had long since weaned my dd when i got here, but all the positive response has been lovely.

I think this particular "anti-CLW sentiment" has been more prominent in the last couple of months. Old timers please feel free to correct me.


----------



## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

I hope no one will mind if I quote myself again. This is from a PM that I sent to Cynthia trying to explain to her why I feel a CLW forum would be important. I'm just getting too mentally and emotionally drained to try to rewrite everything.









"If a mother was having difficulty with breastfeeding or considering weaning she could choose which forum she would want to start a thread in. If she wanted encouragement to wean she could post in the regular EB forum, if she wanted to continue nursing but didn't know how to get through her current situation she could post in the CLW forum, kwim? If I was having difficulties w/nursing my 3 1/2 yo and just wanting to vent I could never post in the EB forum. I would have to hear comments about how her sexuality is developing and I should consider that nursing is harmful psychologically to her. I'd have to hear people telling me I'm letting her run all over me and that "you know it IS ok to say no sometimes!". I'd have to hear people telling me "you know, you've done this long enough!" etc. etc. If I expressed nursing frustration in a CLW subforum I would get a different response and more appropriate support (advice, acknowledgment, encouragement). I hope that makes sense."


----------



## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
I hope no one will mind if I quote myself again. This is from a PM that I sent to Cynthia trying to explain to her why I feel a CLW forum would be important. I'm just getting too mentally and emotionally drained to try to rewrite everything.









"If a mother was having difficulty with breastfeeding or considering weaning she could choose which forum she would want to start a thread in. If she wanted encouragement to wean she could post in the regular EB forum, if she wanted to continue nursing but didn't know how to get through her current situation she could post in the CLW forum, kwim? If I was having difficulties w/nursing my 3 1/2 yo and just wanting to vent I could never post in the EB forum. I would have to hear comments about how her sexuality is developing and I should consider that nursing is harmful psychologically to her. I'd have to hear people telling me I'm letting her run all over me and that "you know it IS ok to say no sometimes!". I'd have to hear people telling me "you know, you've done this long enough!" etc. etc. If I expressed nursing frustration in a CLW subforum I would get a different response and more appropriate support (advice, acknowledgment, encouragement). I hope that makes sense."

That is exactly it.


----------



## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

But I was going along, thinking how wonderful and eloquent this post I quoted (at the top of this post) was, and how much it spoke for me...and then I read the word fanaticism. And I found that very hurtful. Because what is painful to me in this kind of discussion, is what I have seen here at MDC recently.....moms who are nursing in terms of years, not months, but still can't seem to avoid using hurtful judgemental words to describe others who make a different choice. I
Did she mean fanatcism as people who nurse "too long" or did she mean people who hold such strong beliefs about CLW, that they can't accept people doing things differently. Since she nursed a child for seven years, I don't think she has a problem with people nursing for a long time.

I recently saw posts in this forum complaining that a) I had started a thread for mothers who want to gently wean their children...parent led instead of child-led. b) that someone else started a thread with questions on desperate weaning measures. I don't see how CLW people can complain that us PLW don't accept them, when they're the ones complaining that our threads shouldn't exist. Has anyone complained that there's a support thread for child-led-weaning or older nurslings?

Dina


----------



## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

If I was having difficulties w/nursing my 3 1/2 yo and just wanting to vent I could never post in the EB forum. I would have to hear comments about how her sexuality is developing and I should consider that nursing is harmful psychologically to her. I'd have to hear people telling me I'm letting her run all over me and that "you know it IS ok to say no sometimes!". I'd have to hear people telling me "you know, you've done this long enough!"

Do you really hear a lot of this? I know it does exist, but I don't think it is the predominate opinion on the EBF forum. I usually see out of 10-15 posts, one or two that are like that.

Anytime you come to a public board like this and ask for advice you're going to get a variety of opinions. I often see a mother say she wants to wean a child younger than 2..or that her child seems to be weaning. She gets so many different responses. Some mothers congratulate her for nursing so long. Some tell her it is a nursing strike and try to give advice on continuing. One might say something like "Shouldn't a post like this be on babycenter.com? Another might say "This is mothering.com. We don't condone weaning a child so young. And another might say "Good for you, Mom. I think 2 years old is the best time to stop."

Or there's the "My six-year-old wants to nurse again. What do I do? Some will say "Don't do it!" Others will say "Do it!"

Honestly, when I ask a question...I usually come out ten times more confused than I started. In the end, I just have to follow my heart. Oh and think bad thoughts about the people who gave me advice I didn't like...JUST KIDDING.

Dina


----------



## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Just an idea....

What if instead of having a CLW and an EBF forum, we had two forums divided by age. I think the issue CLW people are having is not exactly with CLW, but more the fact that they are feeling alienated for breastfeeding an older child.

What if we had one board for ages 1-5 and then another board for ages 5 and above? You can start on one board and if your child is still nursing at age 5, you can officially switch. Of course, people can jump back and forth from boards. The 5 + board people can come in and give encouragement to the 1-5 board and the 1-5 board can come to the 5+ board to chat with people who have btdt.

This way we won't have to deal with controversies of clw vs. nursing strikes. What would you guys do if someone came in and insisted that her 14 month old weaned on his own? Are you going to accept that? I'm guessing in the majority of cases it IS a nursing strike. But if some kids can nurse much longer than an average...I'm sure some kids nurse shorter than the average.

Anyway....just an idea. Personally, I'd rather there be no divisions. But if there needs to be one...I think an age division would be better than a philosophy of parenting division.

Dina


----------



## lunchbox (May 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
I hope no one will mind if I quote myself again. This is from a PM that I sent to Cynthia trying to explain to her why I feel a CLW forum would be important. I'm just getting too mentally and emotionally drained to try to rewrite everything.









"If a mother was having difficulty with breastfeeding or considering weaning she could choose which forum she would want to start a thread in. If she wanted encouragement to wean she could post in the regular EB forum, if she wanted to continue nursing but didn't know how to get through her current situation she could post in the CLW forum, kwim? If I was having difficulties w/nursing my 3 1/2 yo and just wanting to vent I could never post in the EB forum. I would have to hear comments about how her sexuality is developing and I should consider that nursing is harmful psychologically to her. I'd have to hear people telling me I'm letting her run all over me and that "you know it IS ok to say no sometimes!". I'd have to hear people telling me "you know, you've done this long enough!" etc. etc. If I expressed nursing frustration in a CLW subforum I would get a different response and more appropriate support (advice, acknowledgment, encouragement). I hope that makes sense."

I totally agree.

Lucy is 26 mos and I plan to let her self-wean. I know I will have some battles ahead, particularly with DH and I would certainly feel more comfortable asking in a CLW forum as described above.


----------



## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Just read much of this thread... whew!

I would like a CLW forum as a subforum of Breastfeeding. CLW is a different issue from Extended Breastfeeding, and it doesn't have to do with the age of the child, IMO. I've heard of children self-weaning from anywhere from 1-8 years old. I would like to think that a child would not wean before 2, but in any case CLW can occur at any age depending on many factors, such as when solids are introduced and how much solids are eaten; whether or not the mother works/pumps/supplements; the temperment of the child; whether or not a child nurses at night or cosleeps; etc. etc.... well, you know...

IRL I never hear of anyone talking about how they are going to let their child wean. I ONLY hear discussions of how they will wean their child - of how often their child *still* nurses, how they will get him to stop nursing at night, how they distract him during the day, how they will get him to wean by age X. This topic is discussed by all of my nursing mama friends, even the ones who practice extended breastfeeding over the age of two at least.

I don't really think that setting up a separate CLW forum segregates us into smaller camps so much as it will help us to *organize* our threads in the same way that all of the forums keep our threads organized; it will make it easier to find CLW information and discussion threads. And the information will still fall under the main forum of Breastfeeding.


----------



## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AdrianneWe*
I don't really think that setting up a separate CLW forum segregates us into smaller camps so much as it will help us to *organize* our threads in the same way that all of the forums keep our threads organized; it will make it easier to find CLW information and discussion threads. And the information will still fall under the main forum of Breastfeeding.

ITA Adrienne. well said.


----------



## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AdrianneWe*
I don't really think that setting up a separate CLW forum segregates us into smaller camps so much as it will help us to *organize* our threads in the same way that all of the forums keep our threads organized; it will make it easier to find CLW information and discussion threads. And the information will still fall under the main forum of Breastfeeding.

This is exactly what I was thinking.


----------



## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AdrianneWe*
I've heard of children self-weaning from anywhere from 1-8 years old. I would like to think that a child would not wean before 2, but in any case CLW can occur at any age depending on many factors, such as when solids are introduced and how much solids are eaten; whether or not the mother works/pumps/supplements; the temperment of the child; whether or not a child nurses at night or cosleeps; etc. etc.... well, you know...

Well, it is totally debatable whether those factors actually lead to child led weaning or if it's parent led weaning. Especially when it's something the mother has done that encouraged the baby to wean earlier than most. It really is a fuzzy line with no clear cut distinction what CLW is exactly. Yet another reason not to have a separate forum for CLW.

I'd dare to say that most mothers, even the staunchest advocates of child led weaning (myself included) have at one point or another limited their older child's nursing sessions or tried to distract the child in an attempt to nurse less often. Weaning, just like nursing, is a partnership. The needs of each partner come into play if it is to be a healthy relationship.


----------



## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:

IRL I never hear of anyone talking about how they are going to let their child wean. I ONLY hear discussions of how they will wean their child - of how often their child *still* nurses, how they will get him to stop nursing at night, how they distract him during the day, how they will get him to wean by age X. This topic is discussed by all of my nursing mama friends, even the ones who practice extended breastfeeding over the age of two at least.

I'm curious. What kind of subjects would you talk about in CLW? And do you think those of us practicing parent-led weaning could relate in any way?

What I get from your post is that us parent-led weaning people often talk about nursing in a more negative way...as in when is this going to stop!!!?????

We forget the positive stuff sometimes. We forget to stop worrying about weaning and just enjoy the moment. I do that a lot. I worry about my DS weaning....When will it happen? How will it happen? I have to stop and remind myself that he's only going to be young once...that one day all this BF will be a distant memory.

Anyway, I don't think you can convert all us PLW into CLW...but you can have a positive influence on us. You know? And if any of you CLW, give up and decide to go the PLW route, we can give you support.

Dina


----------



## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:

Well, it is totally debatable whether those factors actually lead to child led weaning or if it's parent led weaning. Especially when it's something the mother has done that encouraged the baby to wean earlier than most. It really is a fuzzy line with no clear cut distinction what CLW is exactly. Yet another reason not to have a separate forum for CLW.

I'd dare to say that most mothers, even the staunchest advocates of child led weaning (myself included) have at one point or another limited their older child's nursing sessions or tried to distract the child in an attempt to nurse less often. Weaning, just like nursing, is a partnership. The needs of each partner come into play if it is to be a healthy relationship.
Yes, but... the kiddies who wean at different ages bc of different factors like the ones I mentioned above, they are being parented in many different ways. Many parents claim that they let their children self wean, or that their children weaned all of a sudden, or just plain weaned at whatever age (a good friend of mine is convinced that both her kids weaned before 12 months, but she inadvertedly weaned them by doing many of the things I mentioned...)

OTOH, the mamas who are really doing child led weaning, or the mamas who want to know more information about child led weaning, or the mamas who think they are doing CLW as best they can but need support, or whatever, deserve to be able to find threads or create threads in this category.

This isn't a matter of whether or not a child was CLW the *right* way; it's a matter of being able to discuss it in a forum that's all about it.


----------



## Messy Nessie (Apr 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
Well, it is totally debatable whether those factors actually lead to child led weaning or if it's parent led weaning. Especially when it's something the mother has done that encouraged the baby to wean earlier than most. It really is a fuzzy line with no clear cut distinction what CLW is exactly. Yet another reason not to have a separate forum for CLW.

This is one reason why I would probably not feel 100% comfortable in a CLW forum. I work fulltime, 80% in my home, but my DD is with my DH all day and has definately reduced her nursing. When I was with her all day, she would latch all the time, but not any more









Some might consider that PLW, but its definately not by choice. I wish I could have her with me in my office all day, but alas I would never get to work and would lose my job... My biggest fear is that it will lead to early weaning.

I'm not really sure what the point of this post is. I guess I'm just really going to miss posts from the CLW ladies if the forum is split. Respectfully, of course!


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AdrianneWe*
This isn't a matter of whether or not a child was CLW the *right* way; it's a matter of being able to discuss it in a forum that's all about it.

Thank you for saying that--I couldn't agree more!

eta: It also isn't a matter of CLW weaning, itself, being the right way.


----------



## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thirtycats*
I'm curious. What kind of subjects would you talk about in CLW? And do you think those of us practicing parent-led weaning could relate in any way?

My brief answer would be to check out the CLW thread and see what's being talked about there...

Quote:

What I get from your post is that us parent-led weaning people often talk about nursing in a more negative way...as in when is this going to stop!!!?????
no... what I meant was that I don't have anyone IRL to talk to about CLW... I could talk to them about it, but they aren't on the same page as me. We don't hold judgements about each other; we're all still great friends - but I just don't have IRL support or feedback.

Quote:

We forget the positive stuff sometimes. We forget to stop worrying about weaning and just enjoy the moment. I do that a lot. I worry about my DS weaning....When will it happen? How will it happen? I have to stop and remind myself that he's only going to be young once...that one day all this BF will be a distant memory.
ITA

Quote:

Anyway, I don't think you can convert all us PLW into CLW...but you can have a positive influence on us. You know? And if any of you CLW, give up and decide to go the PLW route, we can give you support.

Dina
I'm not trying to convert anyone; I just want to find feedback and support and information related to CLW. I support PLW, CLW, BF, FF, whatever one chooses to do as a parent. Not every choice is a choice I would make for myself, but I don't judge others for how they choose to parent, in general. I support all of my mother friends, and their parenting styles and choices run the gamut. I'm also grateful for the great support and feedback I get here at MDC.


----------



## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Messy Nessie*
This is one reason why I would probably not feel 100% comfortable in a CLW forum. I work fulltime, 80% in my home, but my DD is with my DH all day and has definately reduced her nursing. When I was with her all day, she would latch all the time, but not any more









Some might consider that PLW, but its definately not by choice. I wish I could have her with me in my office all day, but alas I would never get to work and would lose my job... My biggest fear is that it will lead to early weaning.

I'm not really sure what the point of this post is. I guess I'm just really going to miss posts from the CLW ladies if the forum is split. Respectfully, of course!

I still haven't found a definitive definition of CLW. I don't think there is one. It sounds like you are aiming toward CLW, Messy Nessie.

I guess the main point of CLW is allowing the child to feel ready and willing to discontinue the nursing relationship. I don't think it matters how often a child nurses each day, or how long (in years) a child nurses. I think it is more a matter of whether or not the child feels ready to end the nursing.

This would be a very potent topic for a CLW forum. I think there would be a lot of discussion of what CLW is, and would help many moms come to terms with how they are handling their nursing relationship and weaning process.


----------



## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thirtycats*
I'm curious. What kind of subjects would you talk about in CLW? And do you think those of us practicing parent-led weaning could relate in any way?

And, yes, I think PLW and CLW alike would find CLW threads interesting, and PLW could relate bc it is, in a different way, about weaning. Maybe PLW becomes CLW or CLW becomes PLW for any given nursing mother/child, depending on how things go in the nursing relationship.

I always find forums that have nothing to do with me interesting and enlightening. I've also read other posts attesting to the same notion.


----------



## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
It also isn't a matter of CLW weaning, itself, being the right way.

Yeah! I meant to say that, too!


----------



## Mommy To Baby Roni (Mar 21, 2003)

Quote:

what I meant was that I don't have anyone IRL to talk to about CLW... I could talk to them about it, but they aren't on the same page as me. We don't hold judgements about each other; we're all still great friends - but I just don't have IRL support or feedback.
And I feel the same way about breastfeeding - period. I don't know of ONE person IRL that has bf as long as I have. That's why I would hate to see others leave to another forum.









What I've noticed throughout this thread is that the issue/conflict is not about bf'ing, but about *weaning*. I'm really hoping that this thread may pave the way for clw bf moms to start more threads to discuss their experiences, questions, etc. and WANT to stay as one forum because the bottom line is that we are *ALL* still *breastfeeding*. We all come here for support for *breastfeeding*. Our views on when & how it all ends should play a far second to the need for us all to support each other to keep going. In saying that, I definitely don't mean that someone shouldn't be supported in wanting to wean. I think that those with weaning issues should have the benefit of the opinions & experiences of those with differing opinions on whether or not plw or clw should be the end result. I'm not sure where I fall on the whole weaning issue, as I have said I agree with clw, while I don't think _right now_ that it will be right for us. Heck, I never thought we'd be at it this long & I just want to keep going, not feel like I have to choose how it's going to all end so I know which forum I can go to find support.

Lastly, in addressing some previous responses, I have read responses such as the ones referred to like "don't let her run you over" and "you should be proud that you've made it this far". I've never taken those comments as a discouragement to clw, but as supportive should you feel that you want to stop or set nursing boundaries. Then again, maybe I'm not understanding because I'm fairly new to the whole ebf life and my skin's toughened up after spending so much time in the vax forum.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

'Did she mean fanatcism as people who nurse "too long" or did she mean people who hold such strong beliefs about CLW, that they can't accept people doing things differently. Since she nursed a child for seven years, I don't think she has a problem with people nursing for a long time.'

thanks dina, nail on the head. apologies to anyone who felt insulted. wasn't meant that way.

'I have read responses such as the ones referred to like "don't let her run you over...'

well, holy crap, i must've missed that because that doesn't sound the mdc bfing forum to me! how did that sneak past? perhaps if we are very diligent (i will get more on it, lol) we can dilute that sort of nonsense. how would they handle a spanking advocate in 'gd', you know? is anyone there going to be convinced that spanking is a bright idea when people are appalled, 200 to 1?

suse


----------



## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Could somebody please explain to me what CLW means anymore? I thought it meant child LED, which (to me) implies that the parent certainly plays a role. Like any 2-person dance, the child can only lead if the mama is wiling to follow, but the mama has a vote, too.

And I thought the W stood for Weaning, not for "agreeing on conditions" or whatever most of us nursers of older children do. With all respect, I really think it's cool that the mamas of 2-yo children call themselves clw-ers in their siggy, but how can you say that at this point? You're probably only halfway or less down the road, and I can say from experience that it's very hard to look around the bends. By the time a child is almost or older than 4, I think it is clear to any mama that this weaning process is being child-led, no matter how small she envisioned her role when her child was still small enough to not be able to nurse while mama was standing up.

I nurse an almost 5yo, we nurse about 4 times a day with the limits being imposed by me. We talk about weaning, dd knows that I would prefer her to "wean down" to 2 nursings a day, but we also have an agreement that she can nurse as much as she does now (about 2 minutes a pop). Within those limitations (she "leads" by nursing at all and by going beyond the morning/night preference I have, but I "follow" actively by creating the boundaries between how much I can tolerate and how much I can give in).

I think that if a forum is created in which mothers of 2yo toddlers can keep saying to each other that they will deny themselves any role in the future weaning process, that not much will be said there. I mean, how much can you say about it? "it's annoying." "Yeah, sure is, but it's also good." "Yep, you're right, I'll hang in there." Or, the other option, one day the child says, "mom, I'm done nursing" and that's that, and then we all hug because to say goodbye is to die a little. sorry for the tongue in cheekness, it's hard to type while nursing a 4ft tall child







(lol the after dinner nurse)

Somehow it feels so... sectarian, I guess.

I would really like there to just be one or two threads for mamas of (much) older nurslings, and others will also stumble upon them. So when your 2yo is almost 4 and it's starting to bug you, you'll just see the thread and lurk a bit and be able to keep going. And give other mamas of 2yo's the idea that yes, they'll be able to do it, too.

I think the spirit of mothering would be better served by not slipping into the rather mainstream idea that 14mo nurslings belong in ebf. NOthing extended about that, really. And by banding together against "critical" elements (who won't stay out of a clw forum, either btw)

okay those were my 2 eurocents


----------



## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

My selfish response







:
I don't know what CLW is exactly. I am here to find out.

I am aiming to CLW. My ds is only 27 mo, so we are nowhere near the end. I don't know what the future will bring. And, I am not a CLW expert (of course!). I am not trying to set myself apart from everyone else in a different place; I think a CLW forum will contain all of the CLW threads in a subcategory of Breastfeeding, just like the Support and EBF forums (I said this before, didn't I?).

I need information, bc I am such a novice. I don't want to be segregated, which is why I visit multiple forums and hope to see many different points of view in many different threads.

I appreciate what some of you are saying about keeping us together and not dismantleing into smaller gangs.

This is just my personal, selfish position about the CLW forum. But if it doesn't happen, I hope to continue to gain lots of insight and support about CLW on the EBF forum.


----------



## kate-astrophe (Jan 26, 2004)

When I first came to MDC I saw that there was a getting started board, and an EBF board, but no gentle weaning borad. I thought that was strange. Shouldn't there be a separate place to talk about weaning as a separate stage of the breastfeeding relationship, just like getting started is a stage? Instead of dividing us and taking the people who *plan* to CLW out of the general EBF discussion, (and since CLW seems hard to define and different for every nursing couple) maybe all talk of weaning or cutting down should have it's own forum and talk about ongoing efforts and support of nursing beyond infancy should be in the EFB forum.

I'm sorry if I've taken this off track. It seems only natural to be tat there should be a gentle weaning forum.

-Kate


----------



## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

FWIW from a relative newbie here who is only nursing a 26 month old, I think a gentle weaning forum would be nice, too. That would keep various weaning threads off the ebf board, for those who don't want to see any of them.

It may keep the ebf more in a "support" mode.

Sometimes I wish the nightweaning threads would go away from the Nighttime Parenting board (even though I started one way back when :LOL), and that could be a place for those kinds of threads, too.


----------



## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

I have some thoughts on this. I'm not currently nursing but I read the BF forums alot in preparation for my upcoming birth. The first thing I noticed was that a forum is missing. There is not middle of the road at all. What about mothers nursing babies? Skip right to EBF? No one starts out nursing a 3 year old! We need a breastfeeding general forum that way the EBF can be left to the truly EBF mothers no matter what their weaning theory is. If we can't even tolerate hearing about what another member is considering division isn't going to help! If I don't want to get pissed off at the jerks who needlessly imply constantly that NO ONE NEEDS to FF then I don't read that thread. Sometimes I do, I need to stop though it solves nothing. There was also a request for a bf loss forum but that was shot down immediatly. I don't think it's fair to cater to mothers who are able to do CLW and not to mother who lost their BF relationship all together. Please remember that ignorant questions are bound to happen. Hurtful comments aren't always meant to be so. Soon after finding MDC I posted a thread under EBF asking questions. I worded it POORLY and immediatly got chewed out. I deserved it I know because after a few posts I got defensive and pissed off. But the thing is that my inquiry was serious. (and I PM'ed alot of members to apologies for getting ugly) I'd never heard of or been exposed to EBF. I really thought the EBF was 2 before my sil did it and then I though she was nuts. She sorta is but that's OT. Anyway I still read in EBF and learn alot! I jsut keep my mouth shut most of the time because I don't fully understand it yet. I'm glad it's there with differeing tecniques and opinions and I've come to respect if not understand the mothers who are EBF/CLW alot! Mother sunshine was kind to me even in my ignorance about it and THAT made an impact!


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
perhaps if we are very diligent we can dilute that sort of nonsense.

Sounds good to me, but not everyone wants to participate in conflict here.


----------



## pln (Jan 25, 2003)

Lots of good ideas here.

I'm nursing a 9-month-old currently and I kind of think it's weird that any questions I might have about bf should be posted in "overcoming difficulties."
I really don't have any difficulties, just questions, that I wouldn't dare post in "extended breastfeeding."

It would be nice if we replaced "overcoming difficulties" with "BF in the First Two Years" and added "Gentle Weaning" forum.

Eventually I will stop bf and it would be great to have a place to post for support and questions without posting in the "extended bf" section, which I agree is inappropriate.

Priya


----------



## hlr (May 3, 2004)

Hello Mamas

I've read all of the posts for and against a seperate forum for clw mamas. Both camps have strong arguments. My thought is this - aren't there rules that people are required to follow regarding flaming in the posts that they write? If so, why aren't the moderators moderating? Or am I off base?

Heidi


----------



## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

We're not talking about flaming. We're talking about unsupportive, sometimes hurtful, comments that manage to not actually break the user agreement.

That's not the only reason for the forum, though.


----------



## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pln*
Lots of good ideas here.
It would be nice if we replaced "overcoming difficulties" with "BF in the First Two Years" and added "Gentle Weaning" forum.

New here, but this sure sounds like a good solution to me!


----------



## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pln*
Lots of good ideas here.

I'm nursing a 9-month-old currently and I kind of think it's weird that any questions I might have about bf should be posted in "overcoming difficulties."
I really don't have any difficulties, just questions, that I wouldn't dare post in "extended breastfeeding."

It would be nice if we replaced "overcoming difficulties" with "BF in the First Two Years" and added "Gentle Weaning" forum.

Eventually I will stop bf and it would be great to have a place to post for support and questions without posting in the "extended bf" section, which I agree is inappropriate.

Priya 

IMO - nine months still counts as "getting started"







And those questions would probably be helpful for anyone else who is getting started or overcoming difficulties.

any breastfeeding questions and pleas for support, can always go in the Support and Advocacy forum.

Maybe we should just combine all three existing forums into one breastfeeding forum instead of all this talk of dividing things up further.


----------



## pln (Jan 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
IMO - nine months still counts as "getting started"







And those questions would probably be helpful for anyone else who is getting started or overcoming difficulties.

any breastfeeding questions and pleas for support, can always go in the Support and Advocacy forum.

Maybe we should just combine all three existing forums into one breastfeeding forum instead of all this talk of dividing things up further.

stafl--LOL

I guess I feel a little awkward posting about my silly trivial questions when so
many new mamas are having traumatic experiences in Getting Started. My
thread would seem so...unimportant...next to theirs.

And I don't agree that I'm just getting started. I'm not nearing the end either.
What about when my nursling is 14 months? How about 23 months?
I STILL wouldn't dare post in the EBF forum for fear of getting flamed. Frankly, I'd still think it was inappropriate and I would never do it. I've
found another board on which I can ask my bf questions that I have right
now b/c there's no place to do it on MDC for the 6 month-23 month nursling.

Support and Advocacy I thought was more about the lactivism stuff, not
about my specific questions. If I'm incorrect about that let me know.


----------



## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

I've never seen anyone get flamed for talking about a 14 or 23 month nursling in Extended Breastfeeding.

The advoacay half of support & advocacy is about lactivism, but the support half is about breastfeeding support.


----------



## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

Quote:
I've
found another board on which I can ask my bf questions that I have right
now b/c there's no place to do it on MDC for the 6 month-23 month nursling.
End Quote:

wow, that's really sad.







There really SHOULD be a place at MDC where ALL breastfeeders can go for support. I know for myself, I'll just barge in on the EBF forum anyway if I need help, because despite that my son is "only" 19 months, we WILL be CLW or whatever you will (natural, whatever the term is). Anything else isn't even an option.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

could anyone please post links with examples of 'unsupportive and sometimes hurtful comments'? i'd really like to see them in context. examples ought to be easy to come by, if they are as prevalent as is being maintained. maybe my position will change if i can see what y'all are talking about for myself.

'Sounds good to me, but not everyone wants to participate in conflict here.'
'conflict' is supporting mothers of older nurslings? i'd call that one of the major raisons d'etre for the ebf, not an extraneous conflict.

and thank you, simonee, for pointing this out. 'child led weaning' seems to have taken on new shades of meaning since this forum started. i remember being excited & happy for firemom's little girl having her weaning party, & then being all (((()))) when she wasn't ready to stop, & i can't imagine anyone back then saying something something negative about her being a partner in the dance.

i didn't *used* to feel here as though my decision to finally wean my dd excluded me from child-LED weaning. when did this happen? it was such a subtle change in attitude i can't pinpoint it. was there a book that came out or something i missed? it's not in LLL lit or sears, it's not in the mothering 'natural parenting' book, i am flummoxed.

was there a consensus taking place here when i was hanging out in 'circ'? i am curious about the origins of the philosophy that mothers are not a part of this process.

suse


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Suse,

I only have a minute to respond but I wanted to say that you really need to look at the threads to see for yourself what we have talked about here. That is not to say that any negativity is the sole reason why we think a CLW forum is a good thing, there are many reasons as have been discussed here and elsewhere.

You will also find a newish thread regarding everyone's definition of CLW. There you will see that everyone's definition varies but we all, so far, seem to agree that child-led weaning is when the child ultimately decides when to wean.

I don't think it's a big deal that you weaned your child at age 7. I think that's awesome that you continued that long, and even better that you did it without much support. But I wouldn't call it child-led because you ultimately decided when it was time for your child to wean. Child-respectful weaning, yes. But child-led weaning is just that, logically, child-led-weaning. Not sure why it's such an issue here? You did great.


----------



## hunnybumm (Nov 1, 2003)

* I have not read any of the above posts*

My DS is only 7 mo so I am far from an extended nurser and I havn't had to deal with weaning, whether it was child lead or not but I think that this forum is enough. When I log on I can only get to about 2 - 3 forums before DS is done with me being on the comp or I am tired of reading threads. The more forums there are they less likely I am to get to read the threads that show interest to me (I hope this is making sence).

No one should feel threatened or feel put down for letting your child wean or for leading your child to wean or for just plan out weaning. If that is the case then perhaps the moderaters can fix that by not allowing negative comments if some one posts about her childs weaning situation.

I feel the same way about this as I do about needing a bottle feeding forum.


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

I am trying to take in all perspectives while reminding myself the reason for our request for a CLW forum in the first place. That is so hard when there are so many that seem to think that a CLW forum would be like some sort of "members only club", that we don't like anyone who doesn't CLW, that some would be hurt by it, that they feel they would lose those of us who CLW, and/or that we are wanting a forum just to separate ourselves and no longer share our ideas and experiences with everyone who breastfeeds, CLW or not.







That is not what my intentions are. I think we (myself included) sway off track and get caught up in the reasoning of "we don't want to hear about weaning all the time" (which is a valid part of it but not "the" reason for it) and that makes those who are PLW defensive which in turn makes us defensive or scared away from the discussion. And there are those who think that the EB forum would become all PLW....hence two contradicting forums of PLW versus CLW. That is also not our intention.

If we were to have a CLW forum most (if not all) of us would still participate in the EB (or BBI) forum and share our experiences, etc. and support all mothers who are living a NFL life. I for one would also stick up for everyone when someone comes in with negative views on BBI (or EB), etc. (if for nothing else than to help broaden the views of some newcomers). I don't feel that it would contradict the regular EB (or BBI) forum at all, just like "Support and Advocacy" and "Getting Started" don't contradict one another. There was a need so the forums were made.

My point for a CLW forum is self-explanatory in the "CLW" and "Older Children" threads themselves. The threads are very long and have been around for a long time. And there is an increasing number of mothers who are deciding to let their child/children decide when they are ready to wean themselves and are searching for support....I can only assume that many are scared away from the length of the threads. "Extended Breastfeeding" or even "Breastfeeding Beyond Infancy" doesn't define child-led weaning nor does it openly invite it. Childled weaning, or self-weaning, is a whole perspective of breastfeeding that MDC should openly invite and encourage to grow...Not stuff into a few threads and say that's enough. And to say that it wasn't necessary to have separate threads is ignorant because the size of the threads prove that otherwise. I don't think everyone was necessarily scared off by the weaning threads, or any other threads, it simply is a need of ours to have a support system with one another. We are not an evil anti-PLW want-to-be-alone-in-our-own-club kind of people, we are all kind-hearted and open-minded, and simply want to have a place where we can be ourselves without constantly having to justify ourselves. And of course we wouldn't always agree with one another, diversity and differences are a beautiful part of the World, we would simply support one another with open hearts.









ETA:
Disclaimer:
Nothing that I have said is aimed at, nor implied toward, any one particular person. I was speaking to everyone. Any offense that one might take was not intended.


----------



## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Would someone from among the child led weaning mamas that are feeling attacked and insulted by posts in the BF forums please PM me a good sampling of links to posts that demonstrate this feeling? As much as I would like to sift through all the threads and read them to get a good idea of what is being felt I simply don't have the time and pointing me to them would make it oh so easier.


----------



## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

I've been following along, and I'm not sure what I really think, but I did have a couple of thoughts...

I am currently nursing all three of my children (almost 5 years old, 3 years old and 10 months old). As others have said, it can be irritating to nurse the older two...

I think I'm committed to CLW - but then, what if my daughters want to nurse until they are 7? It's not the age that puts me off, actually - it's the thought of that many more years of being irritated when they nurse! CLW can be a very difficult thing for the mom, in my own experience, and I like the idea of a CLW forum where I can go to get the support and encouragement I need (and may need more in the future!) to continue.

But I also feel for Suseyblue...what if I do decide that I want to wean my, say, 6 year old? That we discuss it, and she's OK with it, but ultimately, I'm gently saying 'this is it'? I hope that doesn't happen, but I'm realistic enough to know that it might.

Do I then not feel OK posting in the CLW forum with my other two nurslings? After all, I weaned my oldest, so I must not be as committed to CLW as I thought?

But posting with other moms who are nursing much older children is where I need to be - where I'm going to find the support I'm looking for (let's face it - even here at MDC, there probably aren't too many 5, 6, 7+ year olds nursing) - and they are all most likely to be found in the CLW forum, right?

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I just thought I would throw this out there...


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
Would someone from among the child led weaning mamas that are feeling attacked and insulted by posts in the BF forums please PM me a good sampling of links to posts that demonstrate this feeling? As much as I would like to sift through all the threads and read them to get a good idea of what is being felt I simply don't have the time and pointing me to them would make it oh so easier.









Cynthia, I just spent over an hour finding threads for you and will PM them to you shortly. I hope that others will do the same (esp. if there have been any problems in any of the other forums besides EB). I won't post the links here because that might start another ugly debate. I hope the threads will help give you insight into what has developed over time, and why many of us feel the way we do. Please keep in mind that "feeling attacked and insulted by posts in the BF forums" is not the sole reason for needing a CLW forum.
It is good to educate ignorance, which we would still do in the regular forum, but most (if not all) of us are just in need of unconditional support. That is not to say that anyone couldn't post in the CLW forum to ask questions, but the very name of the forum will show that there is nothing wrong with CLW and that MDC actually recognizes it enough to give it's own forum. I can't help but think that many mothers would be even more encouraged by the forum in itself. Just as mothers are encouraged by a "family bed" forum.....it's saying "MDC approves of this, and it fits in with Mothering's NFL philosophy". It isn't saying "independent sleeping is bad", it is just showing that co-sleeping is good, kwim? And, from what I have seen thus far, it hasn't welcomed very many anti-family bed debaters either. The mothers are diverse with their styles and methods of family bed but they all feel supported regardless.......(just a comparison)....... The same would go for a CLW forum.


----------



## Zina (Feb 23, 2002)

I used to come to MDC a lot--it was like a life line after my third child was born. But things here got more and more contentious (all across the various forums it seemed) and after awhile I just got tired of wading throught the pettiness and in-fighting and such to get to the support and inspiration. Recently, though, I was faced with a very difficult and wrenching situation in which I had to choose between continuing to nurse at risk to my daughter, or sudden weaning, for complicated health reasons. So, I came here for ideas on how to wean a child when neither she nor I was ready. I got some great help, which led me back here to reading threads and wanting to get into the community again. After reading all of this contraversy, though, I feel that perhaps I offended/annoyed people by posting about a 2 1/2 year old in EBF, by posting about weaning, even though it wasn't to advocate weaning or knock nursing older children. I would love to have had a place here to express the pain of no longer nursing, so suddenly, and to get further ideas/support as my daughter and I struggle through this, but the more I read here, the less I feel that is possible.

My point is that perhaps new forums are less at issue than people treating each other respectfully. For example, I would certainly have been open to someone saying, "Maybe you don't need to wean...what is the situation...here's an idea for getting around weaning." Even though I feel sure I explored the possibilities and did the best thing for my daughter, that kind of comment or question would be, in my opinion, supportive. Whereas someone saying, "Weaning is innapropriate, and saying you are extended nursing when your child is only 2 is laughable" would just be rude. Can't we look for ways to help each other, even if in the form of *respectfully* pointing out a differing perspective/approach, rather than preaching/criticising?

Perhaps a weaning forum would offer a place for support in a situation like mine, but just by having such a forum, it appears to advocate/encourage/favor weaning which seems against what Mothering is all about. And were there a CLW forum, I wonder if someone who had been nursing a 4 year old and planning to CLW, but had a circumstance like mine, would find support for their situation? We all make plans with the best of intentions, but we cannot predict how the road will curve. And is there room for us to change our minds and still find support? I had figured I'd CLW, but I cannot predict how I would feel had my child not decided to stop nursing at 6 or 7 or 8.
I know I am a total Pollyanna, but isn't it possible that people who think nursing a 7 year old is taking it too far, or that CLW is a bad idea, can just not read those threads? And that people who do not want to read anything about weaning can simply not read those threads? I just cannot understand how people in a community that is based on beliefs in gentle and respectful parenting can treat each other so poorly.

Perhaps I have overstepped, in that I am no longer part of the regular community here, but I thought I'd add my perspective.


----------



## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Zina,

I was one of the two people who responded to your post and I'm a child led weaner. There's no way you could've possibly offended/annoyed anyone.


----------



## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

I have never seen anyone say to a mother that she doesn't belong in this forum because her child is "only 2."

If I ever have to wean for medical reasons, I have every confidence that the women in this forum will support me.


----------



## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Zina said:


> I know I am a total Pollyanna, but isn't it possible that people who think nursing a 7 year old is taking it too far, or that CLW is a bad idea, can just not read those threads? And that people who do not want to read anything about weaning can simply not read those threads? I just cannot understand how people in a community that is based on beliefs in gentle and respectful parenting can treat each other so poorly.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Very well put. I agree totally.


----------



## sunmountain (Nov 19, 2001)

what I'm hearing are the new people saying they would be put off by it and the more frequent/longterm/current posters would be more likely to support it.

so who is your audience, clw-ers (oh that sounds bad out loud)?

personally, I hate labels. I, too, had a 2yo who weaned himself, trust me I offered it and he refused. I didn't need a book or a label to tell me it was ok. I also abruptly weaned an 18mo, due to health issues, tried to reintroduce him to it later and HE refused. I tandem nursed two children for a year, which was agonizingly delightful. For the first time in all my nursing years, I came here looking for support because I HATED IT! But never in a million years would I go to a forum specifically titled CLW, I don't want ONE opinion, I want a multitude. The responses I got were genuinely supportive and helpful, if varied and sometimes opposing.

how I nurse cannot be fit into a little box surrounded by rules and regulations, neither can my parenting. the more divisive this board becomes, the sadder I am. I also cloth diapered for three years but you will NEVER find me in THAT forum. never.

am I the only one who realizes that support and discussion can happen in more than one place? If I was going somewhere that didn't provide what I needed, heck, I'd just go somewhere else or form my own board, but that's me. I'm a drifter :LOL

I'm not condemning those people who want to feel safer discussing their topic wanting their own place to do so. I just don't get why you are talking about it on a public board, how safe is that?

*sigh*
it's just me, really, like I said, I hate labels, I do everything I can to NOT subscribe to one philosophy TOTALLY, I lose my sense of empathy when I try.

I hope the negative attitudes-whatever they are-stop, no baby needs their mom being inundated with criticism when she is trying to make any important decision.


----------



## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Quote:

I think the spirit of mothering would be better served by not slipping into the rather mainstream idea that 14mo nurslings belong in ebf. NOthing extended about that, really. And by banding together against "critical" elements (who won't stay out of a clw forum, either btw)

okay those were my 2 eurocents
This was hurtful.. In my world.. Nursing to a year is about average... However.. Most of my mama friends nurse their babies, and I met almost ALL of them either HERE at MDC or at a breastfeeding support meeting run by a former LLL Leader turned RN IBCLC.. My friends from high school either didn't nurse and went straight to formula or weaned by 6 months tops.. So we are in the majority here at MDC, but the MINORITY IRL..

I have 3 boys the oldest being almost 6, and the youngest being 1 yr in 10 days.. I have been looking forward to "graduating" to the EBF forum.. The AAP _MAY_ say that bf-ing is recommended to 1 yr and there after as mutually desired, but a great many of their members aren't selling that to mothers.. We IRL are getting, you can supplement with formula now, or whole milk would be ok to start now..

My oldest DID self-wean at 15 months because of pregnancy.. The milk wasn't there.. CLW can occur earlier than 5-7..

I don't think a CLW forum is neccesary any more than I think a TCS forum in neccesary in addition to the GD forumm ... Perhaps a forum *SPECIFICALLY* for weaning so they aren't in breastfeeding forums, but a forum specifically for CLW seems ludicrous to me..

There have been sooo many thread lately for derisiveness lately that it makes me sad... Really we are all mothers.. We dont' always agree 100% all of the time.. If someone post something disrespectful report it to the mods or Cynthia.. I have about c/section sentiment on the board..

The admin IS aware of underlying currents, and they ARE doing their best, but sometimes they can only see what we show them.. So, if something is hurtful, or passive aggressively written PM them to SHOW them and let them know..

I don't believe that dividing our community further is the answer.. Just my perspective and .02..

Warm Squishy Feelings..

Dyan


----------



## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Oh Pynki I"m sorry I didn't mean to hurt anybody. And I didn't see it from your side ~ of course nursing past a year is a great thing, and of course that "graduates" you to ebf. I think I tried to say that ebf shouldn't be all focused on 1- and 2-yo nurslings but consider them the "new ones", like a nursing baby can be 2 weeks but also 10 months. I am also an ebf-er irl ~ my son is less than a year old. (not to mention almost 5-yo dd). Please accept my apologies for phrasing it like that.

I still think we should distinguish between ebf and xbf (extreme breastfeeding lol, past 4 years or so)


----------



## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Gotcha. I know that you mommas that are bf-ing a 4 yr old or a 5 yr old, or how many ever yr old are on a different level of breastfeeding than I am.. I don't have any words of wisdom there because I have never been there.. I know you wouldn't offend on purpose Simonee.. You can still be my dutch treat..









I agree also that making it to a year or two should *NOT*be the be all and end all of breastfeeding, but unfortunately here in the US only something like 14% of babies are breastfed at 1 yr.. So we are the minority.. And the stats get yucky and yuckier after that.. The rate of breastfeeding a 4 yr old or older must be something like .008% I imagine.. I've never even SEEN a STAT for it.. So.. I can also understand why people who are practising CLW can feel marginalized..

My feeling is that we are ALL bf-ing outside the mainstream if we make it past a year.. It doesn't matter if it's 15 months or 8 years.. Someone is going to say it's all about the momma even when it isn't..

Warm Squishy Feelings..

Dyan


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

I just want to emphasize to everyone, once again, that our desire for a CLW forum isn't to divide us. It is not a PLW versus CLW issue at all. We simply want to have a place where we can support one another AS A WHOLE without constantly having to justify ourselves. All one has to do is read through this long thread and they will see what I am talking about. The out-shouting is ugly and it is scaring people away. I am surprised and disheartened at how defensive this thread is from those who aren't even child-led weaning. I appreciate the genuinely non-defensive posts with valid points, but unfortunately they have been very few and I think they too have been scared away.

_We all know that we are all doing the best we can as mothers, nobody is telling anyone otherwise. We are all breastfeeding mothers and we all honor that. Please don't feel threatened by our desire to have a CLW forum._

Having a general breastfeeding forum like this one will still give us all the opportunity to share with one another and offer a variety of perspectives. A CLW forum would not make this forum obsolete.

I started this thread with the genuine interest of what _everyone_ thought. I didn't foresee it getting so defensive and hurtful. I see that I made a mistake and, once again, my deepest apologies to those who are CLW.

*Amy, may we close this thread? It seems to be making everyone feel even more divided and that was not my intention. I had hoped a discussion thread would iron out misunderstandings and bring everyone together. But it obviously hasn't.*


----------

