# typical teen behaviour or do we have a problem? *update post 39*



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

**update in post 39**

I am worried about 12 year old DD. She's not the same as she used to be. It basically started this year with a new girl that came to her school. The new girl left her old school because she said "the girls were mean". The story as told by DD, is that the girl was friends with the popular kids but one day did something to tick them off, then they started being mean to her and eventually this girl didn't want to deal with it anymore so switched schools.

We've had the girl over to our house a few times for sleepovers. She's polite enough to us, but always mentions how much she hates her 3 year old little brother, hates her mom, doesn't want to go out of town with her family, etc. She is also a "texter". This kid texts non-stop and then gets DD going on the texting. And she is always on the phone. They'll call other friends when she's over at our house and talk in 3-way conversations. After the 2nd time over at our house doing this, I told DD the next time she comes over, they are to leave their cells downstairs on my desk and spend time hanging out with each other, NOT on the phone.

When she's at her own house, she calls DD 5-10 times a night. Often it's because her mom needed the phone and so she needs to call DD back, but still, it's ridiculous. She makes outrageous plans like going to a 14A movie (means you have to be 14 or have an adult with you) with DD and a bunch of grade 8 boys. DD knew this was sketchy and I told her I'd be happy to take her to the movie (Avatar) and she could take a friend along (with their parents permission). She seemed to understand and be fine with it. So she went with DH, my dad and a different friend yesterday.

The other girl has also "dated" several boys in their class and a few grade 8 boys. Now, I'm not exactly sure what "dating" constitutes right now, but from what I gather, it's texting each other, hanging out at recess and talking on the phone. When DD and her talk on the phone it's all about boys. I don't know the details of the conversations as I am trying to give her freedom and privacy because she's growing up.

Now, onto DD's issues. This is a kid who LOVES hanging out with family. Up until the last couple of months, you could NOT leave her at home alone for even 5 minutes because she wanted to do whatever you were doing. Now, she's happy to stay home alone and get nothing done other than texting friends while we're gone (although I've only left her twice, this isn't a regular thing) even if I asked her to do a few things like put away her laundry or clean up the DVDs.

She was also a kid who slept in our room until she was 7, then almost ever Friday night on the floor in our room until the last couple of months. Now, she just doesn't get her sleeping bag ready anymore. She was also a kid who had a nighttime tucking in ritual. She still likes to be tucked, but if I'm busy with the three year old, she'll just give me a kiss and say goodnight and head up to her room. And her room is another thing, this is a kid who always wanted to be in the same room as everyone else, she wouldn't even have needed a bedroom other than to store her clothes. Now, she spends a bunch of time in her room alone. Sometimes reading, sometimes cleaning, and sometimes texting I'm sure.

She also seems in dopey a lot. I see this in tons of kids her age, but I figured my kid wouldn't be like that and now she just seems like the rest. It's kind of like they have their mind on other things and aren't really listening to you and really could give a darn what you were saying.

Then, last night I told her I was pregnant and she was going to have another little brother or sister and her response was, "really?". And I said, "yes. Are you excited about having another brother or sister?", and she said "sure" and that was it. When she found out about her now 3 year old sister, she basically did cartwheels and was uber excited and talked about it non-stop for the next 9 months. This time she really didn't seem interested at all. And now she fights with her 3 year old sister all the time. She used to love her to pieces and be thoughtful and kind and now the little one is always yelling at her, "I hate you, go away" and she just ignores the little one.

I've tried to put some limits on the texting and explain to her that texts do NOT need to be responded to immediately. That she can set her phone downstairs and check it a couple times over the evening to respond to friends because it seems like that constant buzzing of the phone and constant need to read what it says and reply, is stressing her out. I've also said no texting or phone after 9pm. But the rules always seem to get bent a bit, "oh I didn't realize the time", etc. She does always get off the phone when I ask or put her cell phone away when I ask. But I feel I need to do SOMETHING different but I also don't want to limit her freedoms. I really would like to cancel the texting, but am not sure if that's reasonable. I checked text messages on our bill from last month and from Nov. 7 to Dec. 7 she received 300 and sent 275. I think that's an insane amount since I've sent 40 messages TOTAL in the last SEVEN months but I live in an adult world where email is more common than texting. I've read a few of her texts at times when the situation allowed, but don't make a habit of this as I don't want to invade privacy. They are often "what's up?" and low key little messages but I'm sure they are more in depth conversations as well.

She doesn't share a lot either anymore and she used to talk about everything. She did tell me that a boy in grade 8 asked her "out" so that she is "dating" him now and I know they text each other. This has only been for a couple of weeks so there isn't much involved to this relationship as they went on Christmas vacation from school the day after he asked her "out". We've talked lots about relationships and what people may expect out of them so I can only hope she's listened and makes good decisions. I am trying to not panic about this boyfriend thing so I've just been making lighthearted conversation about it. For example, asking if she chatted with him about what he got for Christmas presents, how his trip to another city went over the holidays, and asked her to get me a picture of him with her cell phone if he gave permission for her to take a photo so I could see what he looked like (not to judge, just to be able to say, "hey, he's cute! Thanks for sharing with me!").

Her school is a school that buses kids in from a few of the less fortunate areas in the city. And this is going to sound super judgemental, but lots of the kids have parents that don't participate in their education, don't provide supervision, etc. Lots of these kids have been wandering the neigbourhoods alone since they were six (and I don't just mean within a few blocks of home). Most of her friends aren't involved in any after school activities and seem like they have nothing to do but talk on the phone and text. DD is involved in dance, music and martial arts and doesn't have the free time like they do, but yet seems to feel she needs to do the things they are doing to fit in.

I feel like things are getting out of control and I am unsure of how to stop what's going on since I don't really know WHAT is going on. I am not sure if this is typical teen behaviour or if there is something not right. It feels like something is not right.

Can anyone provide me with any advice or suggestions? I am really, really lost here and could use some gentle help. I am honestly ready to pull her out of school and homeschool her.


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Wanting more privacy and no longer needing to be snuggled with you is 100% normal and healthy. Being kind of self-centered is also normal for this age. But kids DO need limits set, so they don't get "lost in themselves". Sometimes they just need to have an adult tell them "You have to do X,Y, and Z before bed- it's fine to finish this game you're in the middle of but don't forget to do your chores." or "Put the phone down and come to dinner."

I guess I'm just not seeing the "getting out of control" aspects from what you've described in your post. But if it feels to you like she needs more limits, go ahead and set some limits! DD1 has a cell phone, but we don't have texting enabled at all due to the cost. In your situation, maybe you need to physically remove the phone from her around 9:00 PM to stop the texting?


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Wanting more privacy and no longer needing to be snuggled with you is 100% normal and healthy. Being kind of self-centered is also normal for this age. But kids DO need limits set, so they don't get "lost in themselves". Sometimes they just need to have an adult tell them "You have to do X,Y, and Z before bed- it's fine to finish this game you're in the middle of but don't forget to do your chores." or "Put the phone down and come to dinner."

I guess I'm just not seeing the "getting out of control" aspects from what you've described in your post. But if it feels to you like she needs more limits, go ahead and set some limits! DD1 has a cell phone, but we don't have texting enabled at all due to the cost. In your situation, maybe you need to physically remove the phone from her around 9:00 PM to stop the texting?

Your succinct response has already made me feel a bit better.







I think you hit the nail on the head, that she's getting lost in herself. That's exactly it. And I just don't want it to get to a point where she's so self absorbed that she doesn't make good decisions, is scared to share problems with us, etc.

I'd like to disable texting all together, it really seems to get her in a tizzy. But, I know she will feel like she's being punished if I disable it. I think since Christmas vacation is over I could reiterate the texting rules, "not while doing anything with the family (i.e. watching a movie together, eating dinner, etc.) and not before school and phone must be off at 9pm and I will now add "and put on my desk". Then I'll make an effort to make sure she's involved in the evenings so she doesn't purposely escape being with the family so she can text, talk on the phone etc. And I don't mind any of that, I just don't want to want to feel like we have zero idea of what is going on in her life because she's always on the phone and texting instead of talking to us.


----------



## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

You could have described me at that age.

I often tell my SIL that I would not be 12-14 yrs old again for a million doallars. I think it is a terribly hard age for young people. The insecurities and hormones and moodiness-I mean oh my lord!!

I needed space from my Mom to grow up and figure some things out, but I also desperately needed her to set boundaries and keep me close at the same time. It is a tightrope to walk and we had some fierce battles. But, no lasting scars and we navigated those years together pretty successfully.

My 13 yo neice also texts constantly-it is really kind of annoying to ME and I don't live with her. I wish my SIL would set more limits and I think you are wise to set limits on your daughter.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Could part of the problem be that now she knows that it's like to have a baby/toddler in the house and therefore is less thrilled about? You having a baby is about you. She really and truly doesn't need to be all happy it. Few 12 year olds would be. (Congradulations, BTW!)

Quote:

It's kind of like they have their mind on other things and aren't really listening to you and really could give a darn what you were saying.
She does have her mind on other things! If you want to talk to her, talk to her about the things she is interested in -- the books she reads, the shows she watches, etc. I think this is a big transition point. Parenting that worked before isn't going to work any more. It's time to adjust your style.

Quote:

DD knew this was sketchy and I told her I'd be happy to take her to the movie (Avatar) and she could take a friend along (with their parents permission). She seemed to understand and be fine with it.
This is really good! There was a situation with a peer. She was open and honest with you. You found an alternative that made her happy and was more appropriate. There is NOOOO problem. Stuff is going to come up, and having her talk to you and find solutions that work for both of you is the best possible outcome.

Quote:

DD is involved in dance, music and martial arts
I'm guessing that since you don't mention her grades, the are fine. She's doing GREAT.

Limits on phone use and texting are reasonable -- not during meals, not after a certain time, etc. But I don't think she is doing any thing wrong. She's just growing up. You aren't going to like all her friends. My mom doesn't like all my friends.

Find ways to connect with her that work now. What worked in the past may not. My 13 year old and I like to go to bookstore together, browse, and hang out in the coffee shop for a while. One hour with just the two of us and no agenda is very pleasant.

It's very normal for her to start separating from the main family and do her own thing. Even if you took her cell phone away, that might not change. She might just stay in her room and read a book. Part of growing up is wanting your own space. Homeschooling her wouldn't change that.

So while I'm in favor of rules like no cell phones for 30 minutes for dinner, I think that taking them away in hopes that it will make your child chat with you more is pointless.


----------



## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

My oldest is a little younger than yours, but we're on the cusp of watching her want more space, freedoms, etc. Like you, I could count on dd wanting to be w/us constantly, but it's a bit of a mix now. I've done what Linda, above, suggested. I'm trying to meet dd where she's at in life. I've read some of the books she's into an we've seen some movies together. I've listened w/interest to the music she is suddenly interested in, and we talk about what goes on the ipod. We do talk about boys and friends--to the degree she wants to, but enough that the door is open if she needs it.

Lately I find that driving in the car places together is a good vehicle (excuse the bad pun) for conversation together as well.

I don't think that your dd sounds out of bounds. The friendship piece wouldn't thrill me either, but something about the stability of your dd, and you as a family, sounds like it's very attractive to the friend. I think kids hang out where they're comfortable and feel safe. No reason not to help your dd establish some relationship boundaries if she needs that help, though.


----------



## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

She sounds totally normal. My oldest loves us, she's totally healthy and normal, but she's become quite a space cadet sometimes, and she does love her privacy, so much more than she used to. I think they just become sort of "internal" at that time, similar to a pregnant woman. So much going on physically, mentally, and emotionally--I think they just need a lot of down time, time to unwind, and they have so much internal dialogue going on that they don't notice as much what's going on around them.

A couple of things--

Don't ban the texting. It's like if your parents would have completely taken away the right to use a phone for you. My daughter rarely talks on the phone, she just texts. I think expecting them to do their communication via phone instead of text is similar to expecting us to go back to using snail mail instead of email. Ain't gonna happen, and is completely unrealistic. Instead, help her have some boundaries.

Our house has these two rules: No phone at the table, and all phones spend the night in the phone caddy (a basket on the kitchen counter). They get charged up, and no one is sending or receiving texts or calls during the night. Our rules apply to parents as well as kids, and it helps them learn some limits and boundaries without being punative. No phonecalls after 9pm for kids, and if one of their friends calls or texts, I answer, simply telling them, Hey, head's up kiddo, L can't take phone calls or texts after nine. I've only had to do it a couple of times and now all her friends know and respect this.

One way we get our girls (11 and 14) to talk is to have dinner together every night possible. When they were little, we had the "rule" that everyone had to say three things about their day, and everyone had to ask each person a question about their day. It sounds very structured, and it was in the beginning, but it helped the girls and us as well develop this great habit of inclusive dinnertime discussions. Every once in a while if someone is being quiet (or too talkative), one of us will say, "Hey, X, I haven't heard three things about your day today!" and it gets the ball rolling.

When they were little, it helped them develop their listening and conversation skills. It also taught them about our own lives outside of the home (ie, what mama and papa do at work). Now, it helps keep us parents informed of what's going on in their lives, what their interested in, what's not working, what they're reading, doing in school, etc. We also often invite their friends for dinner, and then we always say something like "Oh, and we have this three thing rule, you have to tell everyone three things about your day!" and it's a niceway ofgetting to know those kids.

All in all, your daughter sounds great. It's so hard for them to grow up, but I think she sounds like she is finding a good balance between home and school, and family and friends.

Keep up the communication and love!


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lorijds* 
When they were little, we had the "rule" that everyone had to say three things about their day, and everyone had to ask each person a question about their day.

We do something similar. We all say one thing we are grateful for. It often leads to chatting about positive things.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

All sounds completely normal to me. She's growing up, and that is her job - she is supposed to grow up.

As far as the cell phone goes, some plans will allow you to inactivate the phone between chosen hours, you might want to go for that.


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Thanks everyone. That's why I posted, wanted to know if this was normal and sounds like it is!

I reiterated the texting rules to her last night. And told her that she's to leave her phone downstairs in the charging area (where everyone charges their cells) for the night. In Canada, there isn't a provider that offers the parental controls liking blocking texting or calling at certain hours unfortunately so the rules are all I have.

I am actually reading two of her books, she has good taste in books and I don't have the time or energy to find my own books right now so it's great to have her library to choose from. We also share lots of the same taste in music although I am less poppy than her. She gets to listen to her favourite XM station in the vehicle on the way to school or home from school. On longer trips she plugs her iPod into the vehicle so we call all listen to other stuff as well rather than just the most popular, trendy stuff.

I'd like to start the "3 things about our day" conversation at dinner time. That sounds like a great idea. I might get some eye rolling about it, but hopefully it will fall into place.

As for the pregnancy, I was just surprised that she didn't have ANY questions like, "when will the baby be born?", or "will I have to share my room now?" or "does that mean I'm going to be more crowded in the back seat?" or ANYTHING. This kid has been asking for siblings since she could speak and even six months ago she was talking about another brother or sister. And she didn't even any questions not even any selfish ones!


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Part of it might be that......

Once kids get to a certain age, knowing someone is prego means knowing they HAD SEX. Which is fairly shocking. And everyone else will know that her mother HAD SEX (at least 3 times since there are going to be 3 kids). And once recently.

My god. What will people think!


----------



## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

I think I would make her pay (part of) her own text messages, because it's a great learning and deciding moment.

Other than that, it just sounds like she's been hit by hormones. And the friend... it sounds like you're blaming her a bit for your dd's changes, while it actually sounds like she's a great partner in this new phase of her life. I don't get the impression they get into any bad stuff. My daughter (10) also tends to switch friends a bit as she hits new stages.

And ITA with Linda re the preggo = sex thing. That's a pretty mortifying realization about your own mother.


----------



## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

I just finished reading Hold Onto Your Kids.I thinks it's an essential book for all parents of pre-teens and teens.
The authors discuss how unhealthy and pervasive intense peer orientation can be.


----------



## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiromamma* 
I just finished reading Hold Onto Your Kids.I thinks it's an essential book for all parents of pre-teens and teens.
The authors discuss how unhealthy and pervasive intense peer orientation can be.









Sounds like your daughter has gotten sucked in by a peer-oriented child and is becoming peer-oriented herself. This will become really bad for her down the road if not addressed now.


----------



## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiromamma* 
I just finished reading Hold Onto Your Kids.I thinks it's an essential book for all parents of pre-teens and teens.
The authors discuss how unhealthy and pervasive intense peer orientation can be.

I haven't read this book, although I see it discussed a lot around MDC. But I admit, I don't fully understand the peer orientation piece. It seems that this is a fairly normal developmental milestone for kids in the teen, and also the pre-teen, years. They are aware of peers, and from I can see, there is a strong desire to be a part of something-a club, a team, a social group. Is there not a way to balance that with the strong influence of family as well?

I don't think that we have unhealthy peer relationships here, but I do see the very strong desire my dd has to socialize w/her peer group, and I do see that girls can develop some strong relationships with one another.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 







Sounds like your daughter has gotten sucked in by a peer-oriented child and is becoming peer-oriented herself. This will become really bad for her down the road if not addressed now.

I think there is a balance. Kids should be at least a little peer-oriented. Kids who are not at all peer-oriented have special needs like autism.

Preteens and teens should get along with others and have friends and the teens years ARE about separating from mom and dad and learning to be somewhat indepedant emotional from us.

The idea that we should stop this natural progression seems very dangerous to me. Instead, I think our role is to help them find the balance -- to give them freedom but with reasonable boundaries.


----------



## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 







Sounds like your daughter has gotten sucked in by a peer-oriented child and is becoming peer-oriented herself. This will become really bad for her down the road if not addressed now.

I think it's perfectly normal and healthy for a child to start separating from their family of origin at this age. They slowly start to move away from depending on their parents and start depending on their friends. Eventually they depend on themselves.

Isn't this the point of AP? Raising children who have the confidence to know that when things don't work out with their friends they can turn back to their parents for help and support?

OP - your DD sounds entirely normal. I've done ALOT of work with kids that age through coaching soccer. I've had to be a hard ass sometimes about things like cell phones. My rules now are that the "team mom" has a cell which is on during practices and all the parents are given this number. The players, unless they tell me before hand that there might be an important call coming in, aren't allowed to go to their bags during practices (we take the water bottles somewhere else). The parents were all happy with this and the girls have gotten used to it.

But I've watched them all hanging out before/after a practice sitting in a circle chatting with each other and texting. It's just become part of how they do things.


----------



## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

I think you should read the book before you criticize it. That's all.


----------



## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
I think you should read the book before you criticize it. That's all.









I don't need to read a book to know that an idea goes against years and years of personal experience with that age group. It also goes against how most societies have set themselves up. It also doesn't make any sense.


----------



## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
I think you should read the book before you criticize it. That's all.









I wasn't criticizing, I'm questioning. There have been two posts that seem negative about peer oriented relationships, and I'm trying to put that in the context of the OP's situation, and the developmental tasks of kids this age.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karne* 
I wasn't criticizing, I'm questioning. There have been two posts that seem negative about peer oriented relationships, and I'm trying to put that in the context of the OP's situation, and the developmental tasks of kids this age.

agreed. I'm basing my comments on my own kids, what I see in their peers, reading lots of books by different authors, and talking to professionals.

If a child this age is troubled enough that a parent seeks a counselor, one of the first questions they ask is "does he/she have friends?" If the answer is "no," it's considered a red flag.

The OPer complaints with her DD are:

1. she has a friend mom doesn't like.
2. she communicates with her friends in ways her mom doesn't use
3. she isn't excited that her mom is pregnant.

It's all very, very normal. Her grades are solid, she is involved in activities she likes, she has friends. Her mom needs to set some reasonable boundaries for cell phone use, but the child doesn't have any red flags for anything.

Lion, Tiger, Bear,

Right your oldest child is 5, so you might want to make peace with the fact that you won't like all the friends they ever have, technology keeps changing and parts of it will be more comfortable for your kids than you, and at some point they may not care much about what is going on with you. And all the APing in the world isn't going to change that!


----------



## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karne* 
I haven't read this book, although I see it discussed a lot around MDC. But I admit, I don't fully understand the peer orientation piece. It seems that this is a fairly normal developmental milestone for kids in the teen, and also the pre-teen, years. They are aware of peers, and from I can see, there is a strong desire to be a part of something-a club, a team, a social group. Is there not a way to balance that with the strong influence of family as well?

I don't think that we have unhealthy peer relationships here, but I do see the very strong desire my dd has to socialize w/her peer group, and I do see that girls can develop some strong relationships with one another.

I had the same questions about Hold On To Your Kids before I read it. I'm telling you, it really challenges things we take for granted about teens. The book is very detailed but what i walked a way with is the damage done by teens looking to eachother for attachment and as role models as opposed to adults.
It rings very true when you read the entire thing.
I have 2 kids who are not overly peer oriented. They have lots of friends but have a deep attachment to us and other adults. They are resilient and very successful in their endeavors. I have 1 kid who for a variety of reasons is extremely peer oriented. He is extremely insecure and his happiness and self worth fluctuates from day to day based on what happened with his peers at school that day. This book has given DH and a lot of insight into DS's behavior and tools for rebuilding our attachment with him.
For me, the information in this book has become one of those indisputable truths. Something I can't ignore now that I know it.


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I was wondering how old LTB's kid(s) is/are... The difference between 5ish and 11/13/15/etc is HUGE. Sheltering a small kid is one thing - and very understandable. But parents need to understand that there does come a point when we cannot shield our kids from every outside influence. They need to learn how to deal with other people, from many other walks of life.

My two are 18 and just about 16. I have not liked every friend they've had. But I have had enough confidence in their judgment to step back and allow them to sort it out on their own, while providing a (very small) bit of guidance. Both think for themselves, are not guided by peer-pressure, and are all-round good kids.

The OP's child is, IMO, acting quite normally. She's starting to find her own way in the world by making friends her parents may not be thrilled with, pushing some boundaries and finding where the limits are, and thinking things/situations through before reacting. The latter is what she's doing wrt Mom's pregnancy. Before turning cartwheels or telling Mom it's gross, she's thinking about it. She'll talk to her friend(s) about it. She'll form her own opinion. And THEN may (or not) tell Mom what she thinks. But to expect her to turn cartwheels infantilizes her, IMO. It really is not all that cool to a 12yo for her Mom to be having sex and popping out another kid. It's..... weird.


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
The OPer complaints with her DD are:

1. she has a friend mom doesn't like.
2. she communicates with her friends in ways her mom doesn't use
3. she isn't excited that her mom is pregnant.



I don't think I said I didn't like her friend? Her friend is always polite to us, I just see her behaviour as more of that of an older teen. She manipulates and wants my DD to follow what she is doing (perhaps in some way to justify her behaviour).
I am not complaining about texting (I work in the IT field so electronic communication is about all I use), I am concerned about the *amount* of texting. I don't think it's healthy to sit up in your room being "on call" for message your friends are sending, thinking you have to respond instantly else your friend will be mad at you or continue to text non-stop until you answer. Texting can also be dangerous as one can friend can forward messages on to other friends to us against you. It's not the same as a friend just telling someone what you said, as passing on written words somehow constitutes more proof (even though it can be easily faked). I've told DD that NEVER say anything in a text that you don't want your entire class to know, but I don't think she grasps that. I use the same rules for myself for email, that way I never have an issue if I should accidentally send my message to the wrong person or have my email forwarded to anyone else.
Again, this wasn't a complaint. It was to show the changes her behaviour from someone who was so attached to family to someone that doesn't seem to give a darn. This child, in the past, would demand to travel 4 hours with my parents to go see dying relatives (several adults in their 40's, 50's dying of cancer). She wanted to be involved and wanted to know exactly what was happening. She wants to attend every wedding AND every funeral. She would offer to help out at home if I or DH was sick. Her response to the pregnancy was not the response I would have received even this summer. Incidentally, I just lost the baby and DD basically said, "oh" when I told her. She was more concerned about getting her outfit ready for a wedding this weekend. This is not typical behaviour of DD.

I will look into the book mentioned. It definitely interests me as I think DD has a tendency to fall into those relationships more than other children due to a bully she had a "friend" when she was younger.


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
But to expect her to turn cartwheels infantilizes her, IMO. It really is not all that cool to a 12yo for her Mom to be having sex and popping out another kid. It's..... weird.

Her little sister was born when she was 9. DD was at her birth, she watched her being born. She has at least 3 friends at school who's parents recently had another baby, it is not weird amongst her friends or uncommon. I did not expect her to do cartwheels, I used the word _cartwheels_ as a way to express how excited she was when she was nine. I expected a different reaction now, but I expected *more* of a reaction than I got. I thought I'd get questions like, "when will the baby by here?", "which room will the baby get?", "will we be finishing the basement so there is more room for the toys and for everyone to play?", "is this going to interfere with our camping trip next summer?", etc. etc. A few months ago I would have got at least these questions and possibly some excitement as well. I really just expected some questions even if there were pertaining to how this would affect HER.

I obviously did not explain myself well in my first post. It is difficult to explain the behaviour changes I have seen and for it to not be extremely length and detailed and I might not ever to be explain them without someone also seeing what is happening. My post was already much longer than I wanted it to be and it still doesn't fully explain everything.


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tofu the Geek* 
Her little sister was born when she was 9. DD was at her birth, she watched her being born. She has at least 3 friends at school who's parents recently had another baby, it is not weird amongst her friends or uncommon. I did not expect her to do cartwheels, I used the word _cartwheels_ as a way to express how excited she was when she was nine. I expected a different reaction now, but I expected *more* of a reaction than I got. I thought I'd get questions like, "when will the baby by here?", "which room will the baby get?", "will we be finishing the basement so there is more room for the toys and for everyone to play?", "is this going to interfere with our camping trip next summer?", etc. etc. A few months ago I would have got at least these questions and possibly some excitement as well. I really just expected some questions even if there were pertaining to how this would affect HER.

And your expectations for a 12yo were off. It is not unreasonable - or abnormal/unnatural - for a child that age to want to take time to process this information before reacting. Even if other friends have had siblings relatively recently, your daughter MAY find it weird. Give her time to process it.


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
And your expectations for a 12yo were off. It is not unreasonable - or abnormal/unnatural - for a child that age to want to take time to process this information before reacting. Even if other friends have had siblings relatively recently, your daughter MAY find it weird. Give her time to process it.

My concern was how quickly that change happened. This summer and even up to September, she would have asked those questions (okay, maybe not those exact questions, but *some* questions!) and I would have got some excitement as well since she was talking about another sibling this past August. It just seemed so quick to go from wanting another sibling and talking about in August, to in December not seeming to care. I am not concerned that she is not interested in the new baby (which is a moot point now since I miscarried), I was concerned that something was getting in the way of her caring. But, if kids change this quickly at this age, then that's fine, that's why I'm here asking about it.


----------



## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tofu the Geek* 
My concern was how quickly that change happened. This summer and even up to September, she would have asked those questions (okay, maybe not those exact questions, but *some* questions!) and I would have got some excitement as well since she was talking about another sibling this past August. It just seemed so quick to go from wanting another sibling and talking about in August, to in December not seeming to care. I am not concerned that she is not interested in the new baby (which is a moot point now since I miscarried), I was concerned that something was getting in the way of her caring. But, if kids change this quickly at this age, then that's fine, that's why I'm here asking about it.

As I said before I coached soccer with this age group. I used to be stunned at how fast the attitudes on those kids would change. There was one change that happened between 11 and 13. Somewhere in there they'd go from being old kids to being "teens"... It was interesting.

Just to warn you, there's another one that happens somewhere around 14/15... That's the one I have a very hard time with. That's the one where I would lose about 1/2 my team to part time jobs, partying and just being plain too cool to play soccer. That one seemed to be hardest for the parents too.


----------



## Tigeresse (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tofu the Geek* 


Incidentally, I just lost the baby and DD basically said, "oh" when I told her. She was more concerned about getting her outfit ready for a wedding this weekend. This is not typical behaviour of DD.









I'm so sorry for you loss.

You know your dd, and fwiw even though many of her changes can be "normal" some of what you describe does seem a bit abrupt. Certainly worthy of your heightened attention and some boundary setting. Maybe you could come right out and ask her about some of the things that our bothering you, but be sure to frame your questions just that way, as things that *you* miss, or make *you* uncomfortable rather than being about how dd has "changed". Bringing the focus onto myself rather than my ds's behavior has always helped in opening channels of communication. I have also made it clear that I trust my kids and respect their privacy, but reserve the right to override this should a situation warrant it. This happened about a year ago when an *adult* friend was getting a little too friendly with my then 16yo ds. Although this woman appeared to be a great mom and friend (to me) something was screaming at me for months that things weren't quite right. Fortunately I listened to those cues and stopped it well before anything truly damaging happened.

My point is....something may be screaming at you too. You are not comfortable with these changes for a reason and I think you need to trust your instincts.


----------



## knucklehead (Mar 12, 2008)

One thing that really stood out to me and I found bothersome is how the friend repeatedly states how she hates her mother and her younger sibling. I wouldn't want my child hanging around another kid that spoke like that on a regular basis. I think it is destructive and wouldn't allow that kind of language about family in my home. An occassional outburst resulting from frustration is one thing but a perpetual disparaging of one's family is another. I don't think that is a good influence.


----------



## vm9799 (Feb 1, 2007)

i have a 12.5 year old dd as well and in literally the past month she has done a complete 180 into these normal behavioral changes. having a niece that's a full year older than my dd had already prepared me for all these changes.....and how abruptly they can occur......as i watched my sister grapple with it all just last year.

i can tell you that these next few years are going to be a bumpy ride, and as our children start to 'separate' themselves from us as parents, we must be there as much as we can and continue to guide them. they need us now more than ever......even if they don't think they do.

to the OP....i must admit that i not only laughed (at the amazing similarities of our dd's....not at you!







) but also kept nodding along as i read your post as you are sitting squarely where i am, only with the confusion that i would certainly have without the prior experience to my niece. i can tell you that everything you're describing sounds completely normal.

i've learned that (with my dd atleast), that there are times when her mood is there for absolutely no reason at all. she's mad or sad and she doesn't know why, or she's hyper and giggling for no reason at all. she's just one big bundle of out of control hormones right now.....much like we are when we're pregnant and crying for no reason, etc. my advice (which you can take or leave) is to give her some space and be there to listen as much as possible.

ETA: to those that have younger children and have not had to go through this stage in their dd's life.....you have NO IDEA whatsoever how you will handle this. and i can guarantee that you will change your tune when it's your child going through this. it's not something you can even wrap your mind around until it's going on in your house. not even seeing my sister handle my niece (who is one of my dd's best friends and is at our house A LOT) could totally prepare me for this happening at MY house.

OP, please listen to the ladies who have 'been there, done that, and made it to the other side intact', because you can not parent a tween/teen the same way you do a toddler. period.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *knucklehead* 
I wouldn't want my child hanging around another kid that spoke like that on a regular basis.

you can tell your kids who can come in your house and you can tell them whose houses they can go to, but you can't tell them who they can be friends with and hang around with. Parents who try just end up with kids who lie to them.

It happens ALL the time with boyfriend/girlfriend stuff at this age. All the time. According to my kids, it is normal for their peers to lie to their parents about their relationships.

Parents who approach this stuff from a non-judgmental place have a better chance of staying in the loop. This isn't like when they are 5 and you can just quit scheduling play dates!

Tofu the greek, I am very sorry for your lose. I believe that you need to process it with people other than your DD. She doesn't understand what you are going through right now at all. She may not understand until she is in her 20s or has kids of her own or watches a friend she is close to go through something like this. This is not a subject that I understood at all until I watched friends go through it. Some day she will understand and care and may be sit down and weep with you for the small life that is gone, but she isn't there right now and might not be for a long time. Do you have a good support network?

Quote:

I was concerned that something was getting in the way of her caring.
Her whole body, her hormones, and even her brain wiring is getting in the way. One of my friends described by saying that is like girls are PMSing for a year or so before things start to settle down. It is abrupt and it isn't smooth.










You can set reasonable boundaries, you can tell her what is appropriate behavoir, and you can ask her what she likes about her friends, and some day she'll come out the other side of this phase.


----------



## knucklehead (Mar 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
you can tell your kids who can come in your house and you can tell them whose houses they can go to, but you can't tell them who they can be friends with and hang around with. Parents who try just end up with kids who lie to them.

It happens ALL the time with boyfriend/girlfriend stuff at this age. All the time. According to my kids, it is normal for their peers to lie to their parents about their relationships.

Parents who approach this stuff from a non-judgmental place have a better chance of staying in the loop. This isn't like when they are 5 and you can just quit scheduling play dates!

Tofu the greek, I am very sorry for your lose. I believe that you need to process it with people other than your DD. She doesn't understand what you are going through right now at all. She may not understand until she is in her 20s or has kids of her own or watches a friend she is close to go through something like this. This is not a subject that I understood at all until I watched friends go through it. Some day she will understand and care and may be sit down and weep with you for the small life that is gone, but she isn't there right now and might not be for a long time. Do you have a good support network?

Her whole body, her hormones, and even her brain wiring is getting in the way. One of my friends described by saying that is like girls are PMSing for a year or so before things start to settle down. It is abrupt and it isn't smooth.









You can set reasonable boundaries, you can tell her what is appropriate behavoir, and you can ask her what she likes about her friends, and some day she'll come out the other side of this phase.









I understand what you are saying and realize I can't just "quit scheduling playdates". I can and will, however, decide what is approriate in my home and I believe that children have a better chance if they know what values are upheld in their families and what is expected of them. I don't believe it is necessarily normal or necessary for children to do complete 180s in their teen years. I didn't, my sister didn't. We had struggles, and conflicts and differences of opinions with my parents but there was always respect. I didn't always like my parents decisions but I knew they loved me and never "hated" them.

Another way to look at this is that I know children will hang out with whomever they choose at school, and parents don't necessarily have control over this. Nonetheless, I don't think amyone here would let kids in their homes who made racial or bigoted slurs repeatedly. To me a child that consistently remarked how they hated their family would be just as damaging to my child.


----------



## G8P4 (Jan 21, 2007)

Quote:

I think it's perfectly normal and healthy for a child to start separating from their family of origin at this age. They slowly start to move away from depending on their parents and start depending on their friends. Eventually they depend on themselves.
I just picked out this comment from a PP- and PP, I'm not being critical of your comment! Yep, the separation is normal. However, without having read the book Hold on To your kids, from other people's comments, I think I'd agree with the philosophy. So many parents seem to think that it's okay and a normal part of growing up, for kids to depend on each other- but a teen cannot parent another teen. Yes, they often think they can, but they often get themselves into trouble that way.

I have two older children (one of whom gave me a lot of grief as a young teen) and two younger ones. I remember my mother hating certain of my friends and sometimes her judgement of them was just wrong. With my two older ones, some of the kids they'd bring home I really didn't like and others I would think "Oh, she's a nice kid".....only to find out later on that some of the kids I really liked and trusted were just better than others at fooling adults. So for you it begins.

What I learned is that *I* couldn't really, totally, trust my own child's judgement- perhaps the hormones left them temporarily impaired. One of the best advice I got from somewhere was trust them- but check.

Another piece of good advice I got was to set boundaries with love....try to turn rules like "no texting at the dinner table", into an expression of the relationship you want with your child...." I'm not allowing you to text at the dinner table because I'm interested in my relationship with you, and I want us to spend that dinner time together as a family. When you are texting I feel you aren't fully present with us and I really like to be around you".

This is the time where you have to work on your relationship with each other. For example, you got cartwheels at age 9 and that made you feel good.....and now not getting cartwheels makes you feel bad.......you need to create opportunities where you can feel good about each other. It is a lot of work to stay connected at this age.....maybe the discomfort you feel is an awareness of your relationship changing.


----------



## mamahart (Sep 25, 2007)

The original post could have practically been written by me. My daughter turned 13 last month and it is getting tough for me to negotiate boundries and expectations in our relationship. My dd slept in her sleeping bag in our room till she was 11 and now I can barely get her to come watch a little TV with me. The biggest *change* for me is that she is not as physically affectionate as she has historically been, ouch! She is still respectful most of the time and a great kid, but the pulling into her world is acutely painful for me. She fights with her 5 yr old brother regularly now after no fighting to speak of for the first 5 years of siblinghood. Anyway, I really try and ask, beg and insist occasionally on connection, conversation and family time. It's a hard row to hoe, but I believe that as her hormones and body slow down the RAPID growth, she will still be the wonderful girl she is growing into right now.
However, I pulled her out of school in Dec and am now homeschooling for some of these very reasons....
Best of Luck!!


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Link to a book I like on adolescence:

http://http://www.amazon.com/Life-First-Could-Drive-Cheryl/dp/0374528535/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263170038&sr=8-1#noop

You can peek inside the book. The first paragraph could have been written by the OPer!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *knucklehead* 
I don't believe it is necessarily normal or necessary for children to do complete 180s in their teen years. I didn't, my sister didn't. We had struggles, and conflicts and differences of opinions with my parents but there was always respect. I didn't always like my parents decisions but I knew they loved me and never "hated" them.

I'm kinda lost if you are talking about the OP's DD or her friend. The OPers DD hasn't done a 180 and doesn't hate her parents. Kids change during adolescence and all the attachment parenting in the world won't change that. There's normal, necessary change (which is unpleasant for the parent) and then there is real war. Real war isn't necessary. It sounds like the friend may be at war with her parents.

Quote:

To me a child that consistently remarked how they hated their family would be just as damaging to my child.
Rather than allowing or disallowing the child in my home, I would talk to my child about the friend. I'd ask * why* she hates her parents. I'd ask my child what she likes about the other girl. I'd ask my child what she thought of the other girl's parents (if she had met them). I'd talk to her about negativity in general. I wouldn't, however, do or say anything to drive the friendship underground. I might ask the girl to avoid saying how much she hated anybody while in my home, but that would be the limit of it and I would only do that if it were really grating on me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *G8P4* 
With my two older ones, some of the kids they'd bring home I really didn't like and others I would think "Oh, she's a nice kid".....only to find out later on that some of the kids I really liked and trusted were just better than others at fooling adults. So for you it begins.

so true.

Quote:

This is the time where you have to work on your relationship with each other. For example, you got cartwheels at age 9 and that made you feel good.....and now not getting cartwheels makes you feel bad.......you need to create opportunities where you can feel good about each other. It is a lot of work to stay connected at this age.....maybe the discomfort you feel is an awareness of your relationship changing.
agreed.

connect with her in ways that are fun for her. I give the New Moon board game two thumbs up!









Overall, I think that moms who practice APing are better situated to help their kids through this phrase because at least we had solid relationships with them before the storm started. However, I think that one thing that can make it more difficult for us is that many moms who are into natural family living can get hung on the right food, the right books, TV etc. and not realize that they closing down communication with their child.

I also think it is an absolute HOOT that so many moms of younger children are convinced that no storm is coming!!!! It's coming! You can breastfeed for years and they still become teens!


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Some of the comments in here baffle me.

Can someone point out anyone who said that no storm is coming? Where did anybody say that it's not normal for tweens/teens to become more involved with their friends and less involved with their families? I'm seeing a lot of reaction to things that were never said in the first place.

OP: Firstly, I'm so sorry you had a miscarriage...so painful. Be kind to yourself right now. I know there are a lot of people who will shrug it off like it's nothing, and it's _not_.

Secondly, I'm glad you're thinking of reading Hold Onto Your Kids. I've found it very helpful in my interactions with ds1, as he's extremely extroverted, which makes it harder for me to figure out when he's going overboard with his focus on his friends. FWIW, he's now almost 17. He was excited when I had his sister when he was 10...and when I had his brother when he was 12...and when I was going to have his other brother when he was 14. He wasn't that excited at 15/16, when I was pregnant with dd2, but that was because my last pregnancy had ended in a stillbirth after a long labour and HBA3C attempt. Despite what other posters have said, I'd have concerns if my pre-teen/teenager showed no interest in the upcoming arrival of a new baby in the family. That's not because I'm only parenting little ones, and don't know what I'm in for, as that's not the case. The dynamics change _hugely_ over the years, and comparatively sharply once the hormones kick in. I do think many kids in our society are overly peer focused and HOYK makes a lot of sense to me. It's definitely worth a read, imo.


----------



## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

This is full of great tips.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lorijds* 
She sounds totally normal. My oldest loves us, she's totally healthy and normal, but she's become quite a space cadet sometimes, and she does love her privacy, so much more than she used to. I think they just become sort of "internal" at that time, similar to a pregnant woman. So much going on physically, mentally, and emotionally--I think they just need a lot of down time, time to unwind, and they have so much internal dialogue going on that they don't notice as much what's going on around them.

A couple of things--

Don't ban the texting. It's like if your parents would have completely taken away the right to use a phone for you. My daughter rarely talks on the phone, she just texts. I think expecting them to do their communication via phone instead of text is similar to expecting us to go back to using snail mail instead of email. Ain't gonna happen, and is completely unrealistic. Instead, help her have some boundaries.

Our house has these two rules: No phone at the table, and all phones spend the night in the phone caddy (a basket on the kitchen counter). They get charged up, and no one is sending or receiving texts or calls during the night. Our rules apply to parents as well as kids, and it helps them learn some limits and boundaries without being punative. No phonecalls after 9pm for kids, and if one of their friends calls or texts, I answer, simply telling them, Hey, head's up kiddo, L can't take phone calls or texts after nine. I've only had to do it a couple of times and now all her friends know and respect this.

One way we get our girls (11 and 14) to talk is to have dinner together every night possible. When they were little, we had the "rule" that everyone had to say three things about their day, and everyone had to ask each person a question about their day. It sounds very structured, and it was in the beginning, but it helped the girls and us as well develop this great habit of inclusive dinnertime discussions. Every once in a while if someone is being quiet (or too talkative), one of us will say, "Hey, X, I haven't heard three things about your day today!" and it gets the ball rolling.

When they were little, it helped them develop their listening and conversation skills. It also taught them about our own lives outside of the home (ie, what mama and papa do at work). Now, it helps keep us parents informed of what's going on in their lives, what their interested in, what's not working, what they're reading, doing in school, etc. We also often invite their friends for dinner, and then we always say something like "Oh, and we have this three thing rule, you have to tell everyone three things about your day!" and it's a niceway ofgetting to know those kids.

All in all, your daughter sounds great. It's so hard for them to grow up, but I think she sounds like she is finding a good balance between home and school, and family and friends.

Keep up the communication and love!


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Since this thread got bumped, just a little update. The reason I felt she seemed to have disappeared from the family was I guess because she had. I thought it was for more privacy, but she was texting. I went to pay our bill the other day and I had $250 worth of text charges. And she met her limit for January after about 2 weeks and is already at an additional $40 in charges. She gets 1000 outgoing message and unlimited incoming. For the month of December she had over 2400 outgoing and about 3000 incoming. I've been checking monthly since she got the phone and she had never gone over 250 outgoing so there was no reason to believe that she'd go over her limit. And with some rules in place (phone downstairs at 9pm, no forwarding the "forward" texts), I never thought this would happen.

And I'm not even mad about the money or her accidentally going over. I am disappointed that she didn't follow the rules. The phone would be downstairs at 9pm for a few days, then she'd forget and when I'd notice I'd have to remind her. And her friends started sending her the "forwards" (you know the messages that say, "list your favourite colours and forward to 5 of your friends!) and she forwarded them on when I talked to her about this behaviour through email AND texting and why it was not desirable to be a "forwarding" person. I was also disappointed that she didn't notice she was texting more than 10 times the amount she had been in the past and ask me to check how many messages she had sent.

All of her friend have unlimited text messaging and involved in virtually zero extracurricular activities, so have copious amounts of time to sit and text.

So, for the time, the texting is blocked from her phone as like I said, we already have $40 of charges this month (plus the $250 last month) and she has no free message left. We have found out how she can check how many message she has sent and she has promised that if she gets texting back, she will check once per week. The problem is, I don't want her texting that much and if she uses up her 1000 messages, her texting is useless to the family and we do text her several times per month. If her messages are used up, she can't reply to us. And giving her unlimited just sets her up to text an insane amount, plus an additional monthly cost of course.

I am thinking maybe if/when she gets texting back that I suggest she pay the monthly fee to add unlimited but that I talk to her about a set # of messages she can send. That way if she goes over, there's no cost, or if she uses up her set "limit", the family is still able to receive texts from her. I am not sure right now though. The time wasted texting could be much better spent doing so many other things. And again, it's not texting that bothers me, it's texting thousands of message per month that bothers me.

Oh, and my mom thinks she owns the "Hold Onto your Kids" book so she is trying to locate for me. If she doesn't have it, I will be ordering it. I have also tried the "3 things about your day" thing at dinner time and the first thing DD said to me was, "did you read that on that Mothering site?". Argh! But, we tried it anyway and she told me things like "I ate lunch, I had math class" and also told me she didn't want to hear about what DH and I did since our jobs are so boring and we do the same thing so she'd just get a repeat story. Grrrr. I meant to continue trying but it discouraged me a tad.

One more thing, since she is missing out on the socialization of texting with her friends right now, we arranged it so that she could attend a youth group tonight that some of her girlfriends go to (they do crafts, play games have a 15 minutes or so of a morals lesson). Previously, we were not able to get her to it due to scheduling but I figured she needs to have some random fun with her friends which is better in my opinion that sending texts with no real purpose. I told her she might not be able to go every week, if she has homework or if we're not able to rearrange our schedule, but that we'll make an effort for her to be able to attend.


----------



## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

I went to pay our bill the other day and I had $250 worth of text charges. And she met her limit for January after about 2 weeks and is already at an additional $40 in charges.
I work for a cell phone company and can not tell you how many parents get ginormous bills because of texting.

I would like to point out (gently) that paying a extra small fee for unlimited texting is way cheaper then the extra $290 you have paid. At my company adding that feature is about $8/mo. Each single text overage is $.20.

I think you might want to consider upgrading to unlimited texting and having her pay. I think that is a great compromise. In my experience expecting teens to understand and keep track of texts is futile-they live in the now and simply don't get it, or if they do get it, never think about the ramifications in the future. They need to text right now-a bill due later or next month isn't even a thought.

Quote:

The time wasted texting could be much better spent doing so many other things.
Except to her it is not wasted time-and if you approach it like that with her I think you will only make the situation worse. This is how teens communicate today. And taking away all texting is hardly any guarantee that she will find something better too. Most likely she will simply sulk.

I am so sorry you lost the baby. FWIW my mom lost several when I was in my teens and I simply did not understand the ramifications. I knew my parents were horribly sad but it wasn't really on my radar.

As an adult my bf lost a baby and while I understood a bit more, it wasn't until I lost my OWN baby that I truly understood the pain. She is turning inward a bit right now. But don't worry. She will turn outward again once she makes it through to the other side.


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
I work for a cell phone company and can not tell you how many parents get ginormous bills because of texting.

I would like to point out (gently) that paying a extra small fee for unlimited texting is way cheaper then the extra $290 you have paid. At my company adding that feature is about $8/mo. Each single text overage is $.20.

Oh I know it's much cheaper to have unlimited than pay for the overage. It's just that she's had this text plan for 8 months already and never used more than 250. The 1000 messages are included with her monthly plan so there was no reason for us to pay more when she was never using anywhere near the limit. It was never a consideration in my mind (or hers, she was shocked when she found out she texted so much) that we needed the unlimited plan. I told that if she would have pointed out to me that she was texting more than usual, I could have looked up how many she sent and added an unlimited plan for the month so as not to get into this position. She said she didn't know she was texting more. From average 8 texts per day to 80 texts per day and you don't notice? That's really what bothers me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
Except to her it is not wasted time-and if you approach it like that with her I think you will only make the situation worse. This is how teens communicate today. And taking away all texting is hardly any guarantee that she will find something better too. Most likely she will simply sulk.

The thing is, she barely has enough time to do the things she is involved in right now. She plays 2 musical instruments (one quite seriously so involves daily practice and a weekly class, the other one is in band at school), is involved in two other physical activities totalling 6 hours per week, and has homework on top of that. One week, she had so much homework that she had to miss one of her physical activities that we pay a high fee for monthly. Her texting time could have been finishing her homework so she didn't miss a class. I've talked her about being involved in too many things and asked her if she wants to quit anything, but she is positive that she wants to stay involved in everything except for band. But she doesn't want to quit band this year, she is just not going to take it next year so this year she's following through with the required practice.

I would have to think of a way to make sure that texting can still be done, but isn't interfering with homework and other activities. I didn't want her to lose her social interaction which is why I am letting her attend the youth club with her friends.

Just a thought (not aimed at you, just random thinking), there's kids without cell phones at 12, surely all these kids can't be sulking and unhappy that they don't get to text?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
I am so sorry you lost the baby.

Thank you.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

I think paying for her own texting or her own extra texting is a great idea. She may decide it is not worth it - or she may, as is her call.

My son is not a texter, but he is a gamer, and I have conversations and agreements about balance and priorities to be most usefull. For texting, i would add in politeness - because texting at the table, when someone is talking to you, etc, is just rude!

The following thing comes before gaming in our household:

necessities: food, sleep, hygeine

academic: Academics before gaming.

chores: We all live here and we all clean

family: Some times are family time. For us that is supper, and some outings.

Friends: Face time with friends is more important that game time.

There are nuances to the above, of course. If your friends are constantly calling or over, it is Ok to set some limits to indulge in a hobby.

Most of this has worked, and he is an easy teen to live with, but it has taken time.

good luck!

Kathy


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Just a thought (not aimed at you, just random thinking), there's kids without cell phones at 12, surely all these kids can't be sulking and unhappy that they don't get to text?

Thank you.[/QUOTE]

My 14 yr old does not own a cell phone and has never sent a text. My 11 does own a cell phone, and has texted, but cannot at the moment as she is out of minutes. She is on a pay-as-you go card which she pays for...which might work well for your situation. Not only does she have to pay for it, but it will naturally limit the amount of texting she does. Neither sulk.

My son would be annoyed, big time though, if we took away his games. I do not think it is so much from a gaming addiction (as he has been without games on holiday and is fine - although he misses it a bit). My son would be angry because I was going on a power trip and inserting rules where there is no need. It would be a breech of trust ( imagine if someone tried to take away your hobby....) He would be ticked at me as much or more than miss the games.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tofu the Geek* 
I would have to think of a way to make sure that texting can still be done, but isn't interfering with homework and other activities. I didn't want her to lose her social interaction which is why I am letting her attend the youth club with her friends.

I think *she* needs to figure it out. Not you.

Quote:

Just a thought (not aimed at you, just random thinking), there's kids without cell phones at 12, surely all these kids can't be sulking and unhappy that they don't get to text?
As Dr. Phil says, "how's that working out for you?"

Your DD is growing up and changing. It's normal. Her priorities are changing and she's trying to figure out what they are. She is becoming more independant from you, but she's new to it and not very good at it yet.


----------



## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Have you read playful parenting?

One of the things he does well is talk about how adults "play" compared to how children "play". What you're seeing is your DD changing from playing like a child to like an adult. Adult play by talking. This is just a form of that.


----------



## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

Just a thought (not aimed at you, just random thinking), there's kids without cell phones at 12, surely all these kids can't be sulking and unhappy that they don't get to text?
In my shoes because of where I work cell phones are a fact of life (my family gets free cell service so I am very lucky.) Where my son is likely to be "deprived" and all "well John's mom lets him do that" is TV and video games and computer usage. I feel strongly that those require rules in duration of use and content while good habits and practices are learned by the child. So teens are going to sulk about SOMETHING.

I hope you know I am not trying to say that boundaries and limits aren't fair or warranted, just how I would approach the reasoning behind them is different from saying it is a waste of time ykwim?


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

One more thought:

I think you may be approaching this as a problem instead of as an opportunity.

Adults make their own decisions. She will legally be an adult in 4 years.

This is a very safe way for her to explore concepts such as budget, priorities, and self limiting. She can learn about things that help us limit our behaviour (such as pay as you go cards) and experience consequences if she uses up all her minutes in one day. Should you go the unlimited route, she can learn that we have to pay for things we want. It is far better that she do this now with something that is relatively benign (with a little support or advice from you if needed) than when she is 21 and has credit cards.


----------



## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

I don't know. I don't get the necessity of texting. I'm not anti-technology or anti-texting per se.
I just don't see any inherent value.
I love all the ways that technology enhances my life. I have just never heard of texting enhancing people's quality of life.
Well, I love the text for Haiti thing. I think it's a brilliant application.
I consistently hear parents of texters talk of the obsession with texting, teachers having to confiscate phones because of texting in class and the exhorbitent cell phone bills because of texting.
We don't have a text plan. DD grumbles sometimes.
Mostly she complains about classmates texting each other in class instead of participating in class discussions, teachers interrupting class time to confiscate texters' phones and kids texting each other at lunch instead of talking.
To the OP...I encourage you to continue to draw your daughter back in. In the weeks since DH and I read Hold On To Your Kids and followed the authors' recommendations, our family life has improved dramatically. Kids are happier, the family's more connected and all are doing really well in school.


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
I think *she* needs to figure it out. Not you.

Parents impose limits to help their kid figure it out. You don't give 12 year olds free reign of everything and just expect them to figure out do you?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
As Dr. Phil says, "how's that working out for you?"

I have no idea what you mean. I don't watch Dr. Phil so don't understand the reference. You responded to a question I had, so I don't understand how that comment answers it?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
In my shoes because of where I work cell phones are a fact of life (my family gets free cell service so I am very lucky.) Where my son is likely to be "deprived" and all "well John's mom lets him do that" is TV and video games and computer usage. I feel strongly that those require rules in duration of use and content while good habits and practices are learned by the child. So teens are going to sulk about SOMETHING.

I hope you know I am not trying to say that boundaries and limits aren't fair or warranted, just how I would approach the reasoning behind them is different from saying it is a waste of time ykwim?

Well I don't tell her it's a waste of time. But being on the beck of call of your friends so that you feel you have to jump at every beep and reply and get agitated when dinner, family time etc, is keeping you from texting means it's becoming a problem IMO.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
One more thought:

I think you may be approaching this as a problem instead of as an opportunity.

Adults make their own decisions. She will legally be an adult in 4 years.

She's 12, so in 4 years she'll be 16. She'll likely have a driver's license but she won't be a legal adult.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
This is a very safe way for her to explore concepts such as budget, priorities, and self limiting. She can learn about things that help us limit our behaviour (such as pay as you go cards) and experience consequences if she uses up all her minutes in one day. Should you go the unlimited route, she can learn that we have to pay for things we want. It is far better that she do this now with something that is relatively benign (with a little support or advice from you if needed) than when she is 21 and has credit cards.

Honestly, I think she could learn to self limit with the 1000 messages, which she already said she was fine with, she didn't ask for unlimited messaging. The problem is, once her 1000 is up, we can't get a hold of her via text. And there was an agreement when we got her the phone that it was for safety and communication with family purposes. It's so she can head to the other end of the mall alone when she goes shopping with me and can call me when she's ready to meet up, so she can have a phone for safety when she walks home, so she can have a phone to call if she's ever uncomfortable at anyone's house at anytime and doesn't feel comfortable using their phone, so I can send her a quick text telling her I'm 5 minutes late to get her from dance class so she doesn't stand outside in the cold, etc. etc.

A pay as you go plan is out. We have a contract with 3 phones on a family plan. And pay as you go, doesn't do her or us any good if she uses up minutes and can't pay to get more. I want her to have the phone for the reasons I listed above and if she can't call or text out because her phone is out of time, then it doesn't serve the purpose for which we bought it.

I've got a couple issues with her paying for her own unlimited plan. One is that she really doesn't have any incoming money. She doesn't have an allowance per say. Her current "job" in the house is to attend her activities, complete her homework, keep her room clean, ensure that her laundry is always placed in the bins in the laundry room rather than me having to ask or dig in her room for it, ensuring sheets and towels are in a pile for washing on Saturdays, and helping her little sister clean up toys. I don't give an allowance for doing these things but will take her shopping when she wants, or take her to get the make-up she wants, etc. She does have money, as she has relatives that send her money instead of gifts, but that's not a reliable source of income so I can't exactly ask her to pay for texting out of that. If I am going to get her to pay, then I have to come up with an allowance plan and figure out what she needs to do for her allowance (i.e. does she get it just for doing what she already does? or do I find a chore/task for her to do that gives her an allowance?). And once she has an allowance do I now stop taking her shopping when she wants something and expect her to pay for all non-necessities herself? Really just rhetorical questions, it's just something I would have to get figured out before I tell her she has to pay for her own texting. And before anyone jumps on me for not teaching her about budgeting etc., we do talk about the value of items and she gets limits when we go out (might be a dollar value, might be # of items) and she has to make choices about thing (you can get highlights or the hair straightener you wanted, but not both), etc.

The 2nd issue I have with unlimited texting is that I put excessive texting in the same class as excessive video games, excessive computer usage and excessive television. I don't believe that that much texting is healthy for kids. It's been easy for me to limit games, TV and computer because she is busy with activities so has limited time for these things and our computer is in the kitchen, TV and video games in the living room, so her time gets naturally limited because someone else wants to watch a different show or doesn't want to play games anymore or needs the computer. With texting, she can disappear to her room to read a book and spend the entire time texting instead of reading.

And yes I think more than 1000 sent message per month is excessive texting. A couple days without texting and her behaviour is already better. She's not so zoned out and is less agitated.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tofu the Geek* 
She's 12, so in 4 years she'll be 16. She'll likely have a driver's license but she won't be a legal adult.... A couple days without texting and her behaviour is already better. She's not so zoned out and is less agitated.

I mus have read the age wrong earlier.

If she is happier and less zoned out, all is good.

I do believe we should give them more choices and freedom (and the freedom to mess up and learn from their mistakes) as they get older - and cell phones is a very safe place to do so. I hear that you disagree. That is Ok - I do not have a magic ball or anything.

Just think hard before you impose a limit that she may see as controlling. The consequence for being controlling is often:

a) rebellion

b) they get to adulthood and flounder as they have no experience with imposing limits on themselves (as opposed to externally imposed limits)


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Those are good points Kathy. And honestly, I'm not quite sure what to do at this point.









Her original plan covers 1000 messages, we monitored her usage for several months (only to check if she was in any danger of going over) and she agreed that 1000 was plenty. So, my thought right now is once the next billing cycle starts in about 3 days, that I unblock her texting and she's back to her original 1000 messages. And she'll be expected to call in and check how many messages she's used (they have an automated system) and I may also be able to give her a login to our account so she can check online, that way she has 2 ways to check. And once her 1000 messages are used, she's done for the month. If she uses them up in 2 weeks, too bad.

On top of that, I would add a $3/month text plan that covers 30 outgoing message. These 30 message would be for family only. So, she can use up to 1000 for friends, and has to save the 30 for family which I will pay for. Or maybe simpler could tell her that once she hits 980 in a month, she needs to save the rest in case she needs to text or respond to family for the rest of the month.

I would need a way to deal with if she did go over her 1000 messages. I can tell her she has to pay, but like I said, I don't have a specific allowance set up so not sure if it's fair to have her pay out of birthday/christmas money (maybe it's fine??). Or, I could just let her know that if she goes over, her texting is blocked and she doesn't get it back for awhile. But, I'm not a big fan of punishments like this. She has a friend who's always getting her phone taken away (currently taken away until the summer now) for things that aren't even phone related. In our situation, I did take DD's phone for a day, but that was because I needed to use her phonebook to compare numbers to what she texted because I seriously thought there was an error on the cell phone company's part. Once I got everything figured out that they were right, I gave her phone back with texting blocked until the next billing cycle, just so we didn't get more charges if she forgot.

Any input on this idea? any better suggestions for me? Keeping in mind these few things:

pay-as-you-go is not an option since we have a family plan with contract
the phone was purchased for emergency, safety, necessity use and not solely as a texting machine
my preference is not to add unlimited texting, but if it's the best overall solution I will do so


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tofu the Geek* 
Parents impose limits to help their kid figure it out. You don't give 12 year olds free reign of everything and just expect them to figure out do you?

no, of course not. I sit down with my DD and *ask her* what she thinks will work. I help her brainstorm. I give her chances to try out her plan, tweak her plan.

There is a lot of ground between figuring things out for a tween/teen and giving them free reign. That middle ground is where they learn to make good decisions for themselves. My current favorite parenting phrase is:


> "What's your plan?"


I no longer see it as my job to come up with the plan.

Quote:

I have no idea what you mean. I don't watch Dr. Phil so don't understand the reference.
Sorry! I'll try again.

Quote:

Just a thought (not aimed at you, just random thinking), there's kids without cell phones at 12, surely all these kids can't be sulking and unhappy that they don't get to text?
it really doesn't matter who else has a cell phone at what age or how much another child sulks or doesn't sulk, it only matters how this works out for you and your DD.

Quote:

Honestly, I think she could learn to self limit with the 1000 messages, which she already said she was fine with, she didn't ask for unlimited messaging. The problem is, once her 1000 is up, we can't get a hold of her via text. And there was an agreement when we got her the phone that it was for safety and communication with family purposes.
Things change, people change, and the ways we use technology change.

Why can't you call her? Why do you need to text her? (I never text anyone. I don't care for texting!)

Quote:

I've got a couple issues with her paying for her own unlimited plan. One is that she really doesn't have any incoming money. She doesn't have an allowance per say.
this is a different issue.

How we handle this at our house:

Kids get $5 per week just because they live here. They have certain things they are expected to do (also just because they live here) but allowance isn't tied to chores or grades.

Extra money can be earned at any time, usually at a rate of about $5 per hour for a wide variety of jobs (last weekend one DD helped her father set up some spreadsheets, so it's not all grunt work). Some things pay a flat rate, such as shoveling the driveway.

Of their income, 20% goes into savings and 20% gets set aside for the charity of their choice. The rest can be spent as they see fit. As they show good judgement, they will continue to get larger sums from us and have fewer and fewer things paid for.

It's a gradual process, not an all or nothing deal. Barnes and Noble is my kids' favorite place to spend money, so I now take them there once a month for one new book each and stop in the cafe. Anything beyond that comes from their own resources.









Quote:

A couple days without texting and her behaviour is already better. She's not so zoned out and is less agitated.
I'm glad it's working out for you.


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
no, of course not. I sit down with my DD and *ask her* what she thinks will work. I help her brainstorm. I give her chances to try out her plan, tweak her plan.

There is a lot of ground between figuring things out for a tween/teen and giving them free reign. That middle ground is where they learn to make good decisions for themselves. My current favorite parenting phrase is:


> "What's your plan?"


I no longer see it as my job to come up with the plan.

Thanks, this makes sense. I did tell her that I needed some time to work out what we would do with the texting and I also let her know that there is a way to check how many message she sent right from her phone (which we did not know before). She has already suggested that she will check once per week and when she's close to or at her limit she will just stop texting until the next billing cycle (and that she'll have the billing cycle marked on her calendar). She also said the "forwarding" text just started in December and this is what really got her in trouble. She'll get 5-10 a day telling her to forward to 5 friends, 10 friend, etc. so if she forwards 5 of them to 10 people that's 50 message that felt like 5! She saw the problem with this and said she wouldn't participate in the forwarding texts. Without those, I'm sure she has plenty of messages left to chat text with her friends.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
Sorry! I'll try again.

it really doesn't matter who else has a cell phone at what age or how much another child sulks or doesn't sulk, it only matters how this works out for you and your DD.

Makes more sense, thanks.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
Things change, people change, and the ways we use technology change.

Why can't you call her? Why do you need to text her? (I never text anyone. I don't care for texting!)

Sometimes I can but sometimes she is an a place where a phone ringing isn't appropriate or she won't be at her phone until later. For example, her bag is downstairs at dance class with her phone. If I am running late, I can text her and let her know and when she's done class, she has a clear message with what's going on. With a phone call, she only knows that I called, not what I wanted. So, she has to call me back and I might not be able to answer because I'm driving (even though we have a handsfree system in our car there are times I opt not to take a call due to driving conditions), which means I have to call her back when I can to let her know when texting would have solved it all.

Now, my texts to her don't count, she has unlimited incoming. It's the outgoing texts that count. And in reverse, she will text me if I'm out and about to ask me to pick up something for her at the grocery store, etc. because she knows I can't always answer while driving. Or she'll text me at work to let me know any changes in plans for the day because she knows she may be pulling me out a meeting (I always answer my phone if family calls since it could be an emergency but it can be disruptive if I am leading a meeting when she just needed to share a quick something like "going to the store with grandpa and grandpa, will be home late".

There's not many of these per month (DH and I have 30 outgoing message per month and neither of us have ever used them up), but it's nice to have the capability.

Thanks for letting me know how you deal with allowances! I've been meaning to start exploring setting one up.


----------



## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiromamma* 
I don't know. I don't get the necessity of texting. I'm not anti-technology or anti-texting per se.
I just don't see any inherent value.
I love all the ways that technology enhances my life. I have just never heard of texting enhancing people's quality of life.
Well, I love the text for Haiti thing. I think it's a brilliant application.
I consistently hear parents of texters talk of the obsession with texting, teachers having to confiscate phones because of texting in class and the exhorbitent cell phone bills because of texting.
We don't have a text plan. DD grumbles sometimes.
Mostly she complains about classmates texting each other in class instead of participating in class discussions, teachers interrupting class time to confiscate texters' phones and kids texting each other at lunch instead of talking.

ITA.

My 12 year old got her first cell phone this year when she went to jr. high. It's a tracfone, and while she can send and receive texts, she basically doesn't. I've told her she can use it for that purpose very occasionally, but she has a limited number of minutes on the phone and the primary purpose of having the phone is to call us if she needs to. I'm sure she'd love to have unlimited texting, but it's not happening until she's self supporting.

She's a social kid and has lots of friends. Many of them text, but they manage to get in touch with her otherwise despite her lack of texting. She's also involved in a ton of extracurricular activities. There aren't enough hours in the day for her to go to school, do her activites, do her homework, practice her instrument and eat meals, let alone squander vast stretches of time texting.

I don't see any upside to texting at all. I see some of her colleagues who have their faces in their phones 99% of the time, mostly texing crap to people sitting in the same room with them. I see kids who miss out on all sorts of life experiences because they are too busy sending meaningless forwards and assorted other nonsense to each other all day long. I see kids using texting as an electronic bullying machine.

Dh is a high school teacher and the headaches cell phones and texting cause teachers are a royal pain.

So, as the meanest mother in the universe, we'll stay non-texting.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tofu the Geek* 
She has already suggested that she will check once per week and when she's close to or at her limit she will just stop texting until the next billing cycle (and that she'll have the billing cycle marked on her calendar).

Sounds like you guys have come up with something that will work for both of you.









Quote:

Sometimes I can but sometimes she is an a place where a phone ringing isn't appropriate or she won't be at her phone until later.
I'm not trying to be difficult, but if she ran out of text messages, couldn't you leave each other voice mail?

The way my DH handles meetings when he turns his ringer off: if I or the kids call once, he lets it roll to voice mail. If one of us immediately calls a second time, he picks up.

It's possible to live without texting.









I find it odd how much we all depend on our cell phones all the time when they've really only been around a few years. We are the first generation of moms to have to figure this out with teen age girls! I'm so old that when I was a teen, our house had one phone line and no cordless phone. My mom and I managed to go round and round about phone use, but in a different way.


----------



## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
I'm so old that when I was a teen, our house had one phone line and no cordless phone. My mom and I managed to go round and round about phone use, but in a different way.









My oldest sister got sick of trying to talk on the phone with 2 little sisters hanging around listening in. She would tell my parents she was going "for a walk" and then walk down to the pay phone a couple blocks from our house and talk for a couple hours in privacy. We live in the frozen north so she could only do this in the summer. But my parents are still convinced that she really really liked nature and was just a huge fan of walking.


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
I'm not trying to be difficult, but if she ran out of text messages, couldn't you leave each other voice mail?

We don't have voicemail.







It would cost us another $15 per month to add the 10 message plan to each of our phones. The texting options we have were included with the family plan, voicemail was not an included option available. So, it seems silly to pay $15 a month when we already have texting that takes care of the situations we need it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
It's possible to live without texting.









Oh, I am completely aware of that. Have I made it seem like we need the texting? On the contrary I thought most everyone here was telling me that blocking it forever probably wasn't the best solution. If she is going to have texting though, I figure it's not too much to ask to save 20 messages per month so that she can send messages to family when she needs to. We're paying for the texting whether we block it or not so if we can make it work for us, then great.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

It does sound like you have a good plan to help her keep track of her texting.

If she manages to keep her texting under 1000 (either through checking in - or whatever other method she uses) it is all good.

If she goes over she should pay.

Because huge bills (the $250) do affect you and because it is a very harsh lesson to learn, I would check up on her usage to make sure she isn't going way overboard. With an older teen I might let them get into 250$ of trouble - but with a 12 year that seems like too much financial freedom (or trouble!).

Assuming she keeps her "amount owing" under 20$ or so I would just have her pay extra. That will probably teach her (in a natural consequence sort of way) not to go over the limit. It will keeping the texting down as well. I do understand you not wanting to go unlimited.

As per her not having regualr incoming money - I tend to think you should change that. My 11 yr old gets 7.50 a month, but may earn up to 13.50 more from doing extra chores (some chores she does for free because she lives here). My 14 yr old does not get an allowance, but he earns 80$ a month babysitting. It would be great if she could have her own money so she could start to prioritise what to do with it.


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Because huge bills (the $250) do affect you and because it is a very harsh lesson to learn, I would check up on her usage to make sure she isn't going way overboard. With an older teen I might let them get into 250$ of trouble - but with a 12 year that seems like too much financial freedom (or trouble!).

And I can check online, it is update daily so should be easy for me to help keep her on track.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
As per her not having regualr incoming money - I tend to think you should change that. My 11 yr old gets 7.50 a month, but may earn up to 13.50 more from doing extra chores (some chores she does for free because she lives here). My 14 yr old does not get an allowance, but he earns 80$ a month babysitting. It would be great if she could have her own money so she could start to prioritise what to do with it.

Oh yes, I've been meaning to. I'm just not sure how to go about it as if I'm giving her weekly money, then I obviously have to reduce what I spend on her else she'll have nothing to spend her money on. Which is pretty much the way it is now, she's got about $400 in the bank but never has to spend it because I buy most everything she needs. The last time she spent anything from her bank account was last June I think when she spent a couple hundred dollars when we were on vacation.

I've got to figure out what a need vs a want is and if she will be paying for ALL of her wants or only some. Every time I do that, the need/want line gets clouded and I give up.


----------



## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

OP, just wanted to offer a









My only experience with teen girls is my own, but I promise, she will come out of it alright on the other end. Your daughter is very lucky to have a mama who cares about her so much.


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Well I just tried the number sequence from my phone that our cell provider told me would work to check the # of text message sent and it does NOT work. So, I called them, and apparently there is NO way for her to check this from her phone. The only way to check the messages is online and that gives you a total of all send AND received per day, but does not distinguish between the sent and received. I can expand the day and look at each day by hour but then I have to add up the amount sent one by one for each hour of the day to get the total for the day. Totally convoluted and time consuming.

The other alternative is to create her a password for the online account and let her login. Then it's her doing the convoluted process instead of me but she'll have full access to the account which means she can change plans, add features, drop features, buy a new phone etc. She would NOT intentionally do any of this, but all she has to do is make a wrong click and she's changed something on our account. Or if she needs to check while at a friend's and forgets to log out, then other people have access to our account.

So, our cell company has:

no way for a child to check their sent message directly from their phone
no way for a child to check text messages sent online without having full access to their parents' account
no easy way to distinguish between # sent and # received online
no way to automatically block text messages once a child has reached their monthly limit
no way to send a text message or email when a child gets within so many of their allowed text messages
Canadian cell companies suck.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tofu the Geek* 
[/LIST]Canadian cell companies suck.

They totally do!!!

OT - but I wanted to track our downloading once and it was so convuluted that I gave up. My sister the computer geek also gave up.

I cannot see cell phones being any better. They do this on purpose (of course) because if you cannot check easily you will not bother. You will download too much and then they make more $$$$.

Once upon a time I had a cell. For hitting the online button I was charged 9.50$. I was able to have them "lock" this feature - but I still had to pay the 9.50. Grrrrrr


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tofu the Geek* 
We don't have voicemail.







It would cost us another $15 per month to add the 10 message plan to each of our phones. The texting options we have were included with the family plan, voicemail was not an included option available.

WOW! That's the opposite of ours. Unlimited voice mail is free, text is extra.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tofu the Geek* 
[*]no easy way to distinguish between # sent and # received online ....
Canadian cell companies suck.

How annoying!!! There's no way for anyone on the account to figure out where they stand on the numbers that effect their bill!

Oh Canada!

Needing to check on-line or needing full access to the account to check don't bother me, but it sounds like there's no way you can check to see where you stand as the month goes along.

Is there a way on her phone to look over her texts for the day and just count them? My phone doesn't tell me how many call's I've made, but I can press a button and see my calls for the day, so I *could* figure it out if I really wanted to.


----------



## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:

So, our cell company has:

no way for a child to check their sent message directly from their phone
no way for a child to check text messages sent online without having full access to their parents' account
no easy way to distinguish between # sent and # received online
no way to automatically block text messages once a child has reached their monthly limit
no way to send a text message or email when a child gets within so many of their allowed text messages
Canadian cell companies suck.
the $8/month for unlimited texting would solve this problem though.

If it's $15/month for voice mail it sounds like your cel company sucks.lol We have 3 phones(me, dh & 11dd). Our bill is $127 + taxes. We're on $40/each/month & we got the extra protection if our dd loses/breaks her phone for $7/month. Our plan includes unlimited texting, voice mail, unlimited calling(between ourselves) & 150minutes. We use about half the minutes & I may go down to the $30plan because of it.


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CarrieMF* 
the $8/month for unlimited texting would solve this problem though.

Except that I don't want her unlimited texting.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *CarrieMF* 
If it's $15/month for voice mail it sounds like your cel company sucks.lol We have 3 phones(me, dh & 11dd). Our bill is $127 + taxes. We're on $40/each/month & we got the extra protection if our dd loses/breaks her phone for $7/month. Our plan includes unlimited texting, voice mail, unlimited calling(between ourselves) & 150minutes. We use about half the minutes & I may go down to the $30plan because of it.

It's Telus and the voicemail would be $5 for each phone, so $15 total. I wouldn't say our plan sucks, I thought it was actually quite decent. We pay $90.24 before tax (including all features and system access fees, etc.). That's for 3 phones, unlimited calling between us wherever we are in Canada, 550 minutes to share (which we totally don't need but they gave us some bonus minutes and there is no cheaper plan), caller id on each phone, 1000 outgoing text messages for DD and 30 outgoing text messages on DH's phone and mine.

Our plans don't exist anymore but if I switched to the new plans it would cost $92. We'd have less minutes (which might be fine) but voicemail that holds THREE message each. That assuming the same text messaging we have right now. Anymore text messaging would up the cost.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
Needing to check on-line or needing full access to the account to check don't bother me, but it sounds like there's no way you can check to see where you stand as the month goes along.

It gets better. The hours listed on the web page are GMT. So everything is hours off from our time and makes the days off as well. So, if she wants to check how many texts she sent in one day, she actually has to check two days online since GMT puts her message onto the next day once it hits a certain time in the evening.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
Is there a way on her phone to look over her texts for the day and just count them? My phone doesn't tell me how many call's I've made, but I can press a button and see my calls for the day, so I *could* figure it out if I really wanted to.

Sort of. She has a folder called Outbox/Sent which holds 100 messages. Once it hits 100, if she doesn't delete them, it doesn't save the next outgoing message, so if she hadn't realized she hit 100 and forgot to delete, then she'd miss messages that add to her count unless she keeps track of them manually.


----------



## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

So, my daughter is not yet a teen (nor even close to being a teen), but I was a teen once so maybe that counts for something. If I were in the OP's shoes these would be my priorities

1. Avoid paying crazy-high overage fees
2. Make sure dd was spending plenty of quality time with her family
3. Make sure dd was not falling behind in sleep, school or extra curriculars

and a very very last #4 would be helping dd not over-text

For me it would be important enough to avoid risking the extra fee to have the unlimited texting and then find some other way to help dd limit her texting. Also for me the ability or right to text would be dependent on her meeting the requirements of #2 and #3. If she was it wouldn't matter to me how much she was texting. What if you helped her pick some appropriate times to return text messages. Could she set aside maybe 15 minutes to return texts after school and another 15 min before putting her phone away at night. You could also only let her have the phone when she's out of the house, since its purpose is to stay in touch with you and dad, and if her friends need to reach her urgently they could just call the house phone. I would still allow her to have the phone a couple times each evening, to respond to her friends texts. If she is responsible and cuts down the amount she is texting she could earn her freedom with the phone back. Lastly I think it's important to have reasonable expectations about how much time a teen/preteen wants to spend with mom and dad compared to a 8-10 year old. And frankly from what I remember, my junior high years (11-14) were the worst for me as far as not wanting to spend time with my parents and spending too much time talking on the phone. By the time I was in High School I talked very little on the phone and quite enjoyed my parents company again.


----------



## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:

Except that I don't want her unlimited texting.
she doesn't need to know you have unlimited texting, it'd save you another $240 bill.

Quote:

It's Telus and the voicemail would be $5 for each phone, so $15 total. I wouldn't say our plan sucks, I thought it was actually quite decent. We pay $90.24 before tax (including all features and system access fees, etc.). That's for 3 phones, unlimited calling between us wherever we are in Canada, 550 minutes to share (which we totally don't need but they gave us some bonus minutes and there is no cheaper plan), caller id on each phone, 1000 outgoing text messages for DD and 30 outgoing text messages on DH's phone and mine.

Our plans don't exist anymore but if I switched to the new plans it would cost $92. We'd have less minutes (which might be fine) but voicemail that holds THREE message each. That assuming the same text messaging we have right now. Anymore text messaging would up the cost.
I'd look into that again. When we got our new phones in December we looked at Telus. For 3 phones we could have unlimited texting, 150minutes, unlimited minutes between our phones, voice mail included. For $30 each(so $90 + taxes). The plan was pretty much exactly the same as the one we purchased with Bell, but we went with Bell due to a larger variety of phones to choose from.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
. If I were in the OP's shoes these would be my priorities

1. Avoid paying crazy-high overage fees
2. Make sure dd was spending plenty of quality time with her family
3. Make sure dd was not falling behind in sleep, school or extra curriculars

and a very very last #4 would be helping dd not over-text










that


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

When my oldest was 12, I had an unlimited plan and they had a traqfone - pay as you go - that they shared. When he hit 13, I got an extra tracfone - one for each. Their texting was limited as I expected the phones to be used primarily for emergencies. When they were out, they were out. When he turned 15, I added both kids to my plan - three lines, unlimited texting. My oldest sends probably around 5k texts in a month. My youngest not much less. It's how they communicate with friends now. MUCH less annoying that their being on the phone all the time would be, IMO.


----------

