# REAL folate is much better than folic acid



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/folic_acid_dangers_and_prenatal_vitamins.aspx
*Dr. Fuhrman warns:
*
*DO NOT take multivitamins
that contain folic acid.
and
If you are pregnant,
DO NOT take prenatal vitamins!*

Basically about 50% of the population doesn't process folic acid (which is synthetic B9) effectively. We require _5_-_methyltetrahydrofolate_ (5-MTHF) the natural form, or else we have a lot of diseases and disorders, such as

Downs syndrome, blood clots, cardiovascular disease, chronic fatigue, IBS, anxiety, fibromyalgia, depression, migraines, strokes, homocysteine, dementia, schizophrenia, nerve pain, Parkinson, miscarriage, infertility, Alzheimers, non-Hodkins lymphoma, gastric cancer, kidney failure, addiction, alcoholicsm, obesity, heavy metals, diabetes, Leiden Factor V, OCD, bipolar, aggression, liver dsyfunction, renal dysfunction, pulmorary fibrosis, autism, breast cancer, colorectal cancer, adenoma, endometrial cancer, lung cancer, spina bifida, neural tube defects, preeclampsia, placental abruption, hypothyroid, psoriasis, etc.

[there are nuances to the different types of folate, but bottom line, we must have sources of bio-available folate. ]

*What foods provide folate?*
Romaine lettuce, spinach, asparagus, turnip greens, mustard greens, liver, collard greens, broccoli, cauliflower, beets, lentils, squash, black beans, pinto beans, garbanzo beans, papaya, string beans..

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...trient&dbid=63

*Also, many medications interfere with the utilization of folate:*
Medications that can help deplete the body's supply of folate include: anticancer drugs like methotrexate; _cholesterol-lowering drugs_; anti-inflammatory drugs like sulfasalazine; biguanide drugs like buformin, phenformin, or metformin used in the treatment of diabetes; *birth control pills (oral contraceptives)*; diuretics like triamterene; and _antibiotics_. While the anti-convulsant drug phenytoin (sold under the brand name of Dilantin or Phenytek) remains somewhat controversial in terms of its impact on folate.

Birth defects often occur due to the absence of adequate *food folate*, generally not the absence of synthetic B9 (folic acid), which is in prenatals and added to foods such as cereal and bread.

More specifically, there are issues with the methylation detox pathway.

Here are some threads discussing these issues:

what causes midline defects?

Butt Dimples (aka mid line issues - spun off from tongue-tie thread)

Tongue Tie Question

mthfr?

Folate and IgE allergies

Pat


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

I'm pretty sure that can't possibly be true, or they would've noticed it in all the studies showing that folic acid supplementation reduced the risk of neural tube defects. It's not like that's such a small percentage of the population that it wouldn't be obvious in studies. That's a huge proportion of people for whom it wouldn't work and they would have noticed it in the studies. Besides which, some studies have shown that synthetic folic acid is _more_ biovailable, since it doesn't need to be converted from one form to another. (You'd have to google that, since I don't remember the names of the forms, but it should be easy to find.) I still take a food based prenatal, so there aren't any synthetic vitamins in it, because that's my preference. Oh, and it's still called folic acid, even though it's not synthetic (I don't know why).


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Regarding the epilepsy drugs (dilantin, et al) affecting neural tube defects/folic acid, I have a childhood friend with epilepsy who had a lot of difficulties with pregnancy. She miscarried several times and did have a pregnancy with a baby with anencephaly (severe fatal neural tube defect). Her drs put her on really large doses of folic acid after that and she went on to have a healthy baby girl, but based on her anecdotal experience I wouldn't take a chance one not taking folic acid if I were on those kinds of meds.

I agree that food sources are excellent, but what would the problem be with supplementing? If it's not absorbed and you're still eating a diet high in folic acid you haven't affected anything and if the folic acid supps _are_ absorbed you've helped.


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## deditus (Feb 22, 2006)

Thanks for spreading the word, Pat.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Folic acid has only been supplemented in foods in the US, since January 1, 1998. The recent research evaluating that practice, as compared to countries who do not supplement synthetic folate is identifying significant concerns.

The MTHFR gene polymorphism has only been identified since 1999, maybe 1998. And another version of it only since 2003, iirc. The reproductive endocrinologists and some OBs seem to be aware of it due to a "seeming" association with repeated miscarriages. (here is a bunch more info, plus the links on the next page: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...n#post14539524 )

The concern regarding synthetic folic acid supplementation during pregnancy has only been found since the most recent 2009 research.

References:
_1. Stolzenberg-Solomon RZ et al. Folate intake, alcohol use, and postmenopausal breast cancer risk in the Prostate, Lung, Colorectal, and Ovarian Cancer Screening Trial. Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Apr;83(4):895-904.
2. Kim YI. Does a high folate intake increase the risk of breast cancer? Nut Rev; 2006; 64(10PT1) 468-75.
3. Figueiredo JC et al. Folic acid and risk of prostate cancer: results from a randomized clinical trial. J Natl Cancer Inst. 2009 Mar 18;101(6):432-5. Epub 2009 Mar 10.
4. Fife, J et al. Folic Acid Supplementation and Colorectal Cancer Risk; A Meta-analysis. Colorectal Dis. 2009 Oct 27. [Epub ahead of print]
*5. Whitrow MJ. Effect of Supplemental Folic Acid in Pregnancy on Childhood Asthma: A Prospective Birth Cohort Study. Am J Epidemiol. 2009 Oct 30. [Epub ahead of print]*
*6. Haberg SE, London SJ, Stigum H, Nafstad P, Nystad W. Folic acid supplements in pregnancy and early childhood respiratory health. Arch Dis Child. 2009 Mar;94(3):180-4. Epub 2008 Dec 3.*
7. Ebbing M et al. Cancer Incidence and Mortality After Treatment With Folic Acid and Vitamin B12. JAMA. 2009;302(19):2119-2126.
*8. Charles D et al. Taking folate in pregnancy and risk of maternal breast cancer. BMJ 2004;329:1375-6*
9. Harvard School of Public Health; The Nutrition Source: Keep the Multi, Skip the Heavily Fortified Foods; www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/folicacid/ Date accessed: 8/29/08.
10. Hirsch S et al. Colon cancer in Chile before and after the start of the flour fortification program with folic acid. Eur J Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2009 Apr;21(4):436-9.
11. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/591111
*12. Kwan ML et al. Maternal diet and risk of childhood acute lymphoblastic leukemia. Public Health Rep. 2009 Jul-Aug;124(4):503-14.*
Tower RL et al. The epidemiology of childhood leukemia with a focus on birth weight and diet. Crit Rev Clin Lab Sci. 2007;44(3):203-42.
Petridou E et al. Maternal diet and acute lymphoblastic leukemia in young children.Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2005 Aug;14(8):1935-9.
Jensen CD et al. Maternal dietary risk factors in childhood acute lymphoblastic leukemia (United States).Cancer Causes Control. 2004 Aug;15(6):559-70.
13. Huncharek M et al. A meta-analysis of maternal cured meat consumption during pregnancy and the risk of childhood brain tumors. Neuroepidemiology. 2004 Jan-Apr;23(1-2):78-84.
*Pogoda JM et al. An international case-control study of maternal diet during pregnancy and childhood brain tumor risk: a histology-specific analysis by food group. Ann Epidemiol. 2009 Mar;19(3):148-60.*
14. Sellers TA et al. Dietary folate intake, alcohol, and risk of breast cancer in a prospective study of postmenopausal women. Epidemiology. 2001 Jul;12(4):420-8.
15. Kim YI. Folic acid fortification and supplementation--good for some but not so good for others. Nutr Rev. 2007 Nov;65(11):504-11.
16. http://www.nutritiondata.com/tools/nutrient-search
17. Bjelakovic G, Nikolava D, Gluud LL, et al. Antioxidant supplements for prevention of mortality in healthy participants and patient with various diseases. Cochrane Database Syst Rev 2008;16(2):CD00776.
18. Mayne ST. Beta-carotene, carotenoids, and disease prevention in humans. FASEB. 1996;10(7):690-701.
19. Goodman GE. Prevention of lung cancer. Current Opinion in Oncology 1998;10(2):122-126.
20. Kolata G. Studies Find Beta Carotene, Taken by Millions, Can't Forestall Cancer or Heart Disease. New York Times, Jan 19, 1996.
source: http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/fol..._vitamins.aspx

_
*New research is focused on* *adverse effects of our greatly increased folic acid intakes.

*Here is an excellent explanation about MTHFR and pregnancy: http://lifebalanceinfertilitycoach.w...f-miscarriage/

ETA: I've been researching the MTHFR relation to cancer since March 2009, when my mom was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=289

It all goes back to *food folate*, rather than synthetic folic acid supplementation. The food supplementation with synthetic folic acid is a large public health _experiment_ without prior safety studies related to pregnancy and cancer. *Retrospective studies* are indicating the danger of this current practice, which only started 10 years ago, in the US due to FDA regulations.

Pat


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Pat, I would guess (since I'm not sure anyone knows for certain) that people with only one non-typical MTHFR gene would probably convert the folic acid pretty well. And the percentage with two copies of the non-typical MTHFR genes are a much smaller proportion of the population.

I'm torn on this--I _really_ wish that all prenatals had actual folate. I'm guessing that the folic acid in my prenatal helped with DS--he has a very slight sacral dimple, and given my overall health issues (which weren't obvious when we were TTC), I was surely low in folate, so I think it was actively good for him (best guess, looking back). But based on our health (mine and my family history), I don't think the MTHFR polymorphisms are an issue for us.

The problem, IMO, is that folic acid is seen as an absolute good, when in fact, for a proportion of the population, it may be harmful, and that discussion isn't happening. I guess the fact that the process to make the 5-mthf type of folate is patented is part of the issue, plus folic acid is already in the food supply. Bummer to have to go back and change that decision (though I don't think folate is as stable, so I don't think it _can_ be added).


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## Ammaarah (May 21, 2005)

I will always take folic acid in pregnancy AND eat a good diet. I'm so pleased we live in a day and age where we're able to do both.


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## stiss (Jun 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Folic acid has only been supplemented in foods in the US, since January 1, 1998. The recent research evaluating that practice, as compared to countries who do not supplement synthetic folate is identifying significant concerns.

The MTHFR gene polymorphism has only been identified since 1999, maybe 1998. And another version of it only since 2003, iirc. The reproductive endocrinologists and some OBs seem to be aware of it due to a "seeming" association with repeated miscarriages. (here is a bunch more info, plus the links on the next page: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...n#post14539524 )

The concern regarding synthetic folic acid supplementation during pregnancy has only been found since the most recent 2009 research.

References:
_1. Stolzenberg-Solomon RZ et al. Folate intake, alcohol use, and postmenopausal breast cancer risk in the Prostate, Lung, Colorectal, and Ovarian Cancer Screening Trial. Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Apr;83(4):895-904.
2. Kim YI. Does a high folate intake increase the risk of breast cancer? Nut Rev; 2006; 64(10PT1) 468-75.
3. Figueiredo JC et al. Folic acid and risk of prostate cancer: results from a randomized clinical trial. J Natl Cancer Inst. 2009 Mar 18;101(6):432-5. Epub 2009 Mar 10.
4. Fife, J et al. Folic Acid Supplementation and Colorectal Cancer Risk; A Meta-analysis. Colorectal Dis. 2009 Oct 27. [Epub ahead of print]
*5. Whitrow MJ. Effect of Supplemental Folic Acid in Pregnancy on Childhood Asthma: A Prospective Birth Cohort Study. Am J Epidemiol. 2009 Oct 30. [Epub ahead of print]*
*6. Haberg SE, London SJ, Stigum H, Nafstad P, Nystad W. Folic acid supplements in pregnancy and early childhood respiratory health. Arch Dis Child. 2009 Mar;94(3):180-4. Epub 2008 Dec 3.*
7. Ebbing M et al. Cancer Incidence and Mortality After Treatment With Folic Acid and Vitamin B12. JAMA. 2009;302(19):2119-2126.
*8. Charles D et al. Taking folate in pregnancy and risk of maternal breast cancer. BMJ 2004;329:1375-6*
9. Harvard School of Public Health; The Nutrition Source: Keep the Multi, Skip the Heavily Fortified Foods; www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/folicacid/ Date accessed: 8/29/08.
10. Hirsch S et al. Colon cancer in Chile before and after the start of the flour fortification program with folic acid. Eur J Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2009 Apr;21(4):436-9.
11. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/591111
*12. Kwan ML et al. Maternal diet and risk of childhood acute lymphoblastic leukemia. Public Health Rep. 2009 Jul-Aug;124(4):503-14.*
Tower RL et al. The epidemiology of childhood leukemia with a focus on birth weight and diet. Crit Rev Clin Lab Sci. 2007;44(3):203-42.
Petridou E et al. Maternal diet and acute lymphoblastic leukemia in young children.Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2005 Aug;14(8):1935-9.
Jensen CD et al. Maternal dietary risk factors in childhood acute lymphoblastic leukemia (United States).Cancer Causes Control. 2004 Aug;15(6):559-70.
13. Huncharek M et al. A meta-analysis of maternal cured meat consumption during pregnancy and the risk of childhood brain tumors. Neuroepidemiology. 2004 Jan-Apr;23(1-2):78-84.
*Pogoda JM et al. An international case-control study of maternal diet during pregnancy and childhood brain tumor risk: a histology-specific analysis by food group. Ann Epidemiol. 2009 Mar;19(3):148-60.*
14. Sellers TA et al. Dietary folate intake, alcohol, and risk of breast cancer in a prospective study of postmenopausal women. Epidemiology. 2001 Jul;12(4):420-8.
15. Kim YI. Folic acid fortification and supplementation--good for some but not so good for others. Nutr Rev. 2007 Nov;65(11):504-11.
16. http://www.nutritiondata.com/tools/nutrient-search
17. Bjelakovic G, Nikolava D, Gluud LL, et al. Antioxidant supplements for prevention of mortality in healthy participants and patient with various diseases. Cochrane Database Syst Rev 2008;16(2):CD00776.
18. Mayne ST. Beta-carotene, carotenoids, and disease prevention in humans. FASEB. 1996;10(7):690-701.
19. Goodman GE. Prevention of lung cancer. Current Opinion in Oncology 1998;10(2):122-126.
20. Kolata G. Studies Find Beta Carotene, Taken by Millions, Can't Forestall Cancer or Heart Disease. New York Times, Jan 19, 1996.
source: http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/fol..._vitamins.aspx

_
*New research is focused on* *adverse effects of our greatly increased folic acid intakes.

*Here is an excellent explanation about MTHFR and pregnancy: http://lifebalanceinfertilitycoach.w...f-miscarriage/

ETA: I've been researching the MTHFR relation to cancer since March 2009, when my mom was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=289

It all goes back to *food folate*, rather than synthetic folic acid supplementation. The food supplementation with synthetic folic acid is a large public health _experiment_ without prior safety studies related to pregnancy and cancer. *Retrospective studies* are indicating the danger of this current practice, which only started 10 years ago, in the US due to FDA regulations.

Pat

So, if you're worried about something that's only being reported in research published this year, why would you cite a bunch of references from earlier years when I'm guessing you haven't read the majority of them? Scientific research shouldn't be cherry-picked, especially by people who don't understand what it says...unless you care to summarize each of those articles you're using as evidence for your claims?


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nashvillemidwife* 
Who the hell is Dr. Fuhrman?

This is very bad advice. I hope that no posters take this seriously. Posting drivel like this is irresponsible and dangerous to the gullible readers who latch on to it.


Apparently a former ice skater. Click on his about me section and you can watch videos.









I really can't take a doctor seriously when they list their ice skating accomplishments on the same level with their medical accomplishments.

I agree that it is best to try and eat a lot of food with folic acid, but I hardly think it will hurt to take a supplement along with it.


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## sophiekat (Oct 29, 2005)

OP, are you affiliated with this doctor?
How convenient that if you click your provided links to his "research", you can browse his site and see all the products he has for sale, including his very own super special multivitamin!


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

I completely concur, Pat. Increasing folate containing foods and being certain that your folate supplementation comes in the MTHF form of the vitamin, rather than the synthetic folic acid, is essential if you're uncertain of which MTHFR genes you carry. The fact that the synthetic form is being promoted as equivalent to the food form is irresponsible and dangerous, imo.
As for the PP who said "It's still called folic acid for some reason"- that's because the two forms are being presented as equivalent (which they're NOT) and that's sort of the point. And, actually, it DOES have to be converted from one form to another at the expense of other vitamins (sleep deprived so can't recall exactly which atm).


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
11. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/591111
*12. Kwan ML et al. Maternal diet and risk of childhood acute lymphoblastic leukemia. Public Health Rep. 2009 Jul-Aug;124(4):503-14.*

I just looked at one study that you had highlighted:

Quote:

CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that it may be prudent for women to consume a diet rich in vegetables and adequate in protein prior to and during pregnancy as a possible means of reducing childhood ALL risk in their offspring.
How does this relate to folic acid supplementation being dangerous??


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## WaitingForKiddos (Nov 30, 2006)

Hogwash


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)




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## jennica (Aug 10, 2005)

...


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophiekat* 
OP, are you affiliated with this doctor?
How convenient that if you click your provided links to his "research", you can browse his site and see all the products he has for sale, including his very own super special multivitamin!

No, I am not an advocate for vitamin supplementation. I advocate whole foods for nutrition.

Not affiliated with any products or the doctor in any manner whatsoever.

Pat Robinson


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

I don't have enough computer time lately to have good links for everything, but here's the basic biochem:

If you look up the folic acid cycle, you'll see that folic acid (synthetic, in supplements) needs to be converted to 5-methyltetrahydrofolate (5-MTHF, aka methyl folate) in order to be used in the methyl cycle (a primary use of folate in humans). This conversion involves a number of enzymes, including MTHFR. In a significant portion of the population (ballpark of 40-50%), the MTHFR enzyme isn't as efficient as in the rest of the population, and as a result, their methyl folate levels tend to be lower. That means their methylation may be impaired, and they're at risk for the list of diseases Pat is posting.

Folic acid is absorbed better in the digestive tract than food folate (5-MTHF and folinic acid are the food forms). As a result, taking folic acid can mean you're not absorbing as much food folate. There's a limit (diminishing returns) to how much folic acid your body can metabolize. It drops off around 260 mcg, and pretty much plateaus at 400mcg. I *think* those numbers are general population numbers not taking into account MTHFR. As you start supping more than you can process, you get unmetabolized, unusable folic acid floating around in your body and it competes for transport with the good stuff. Nobody really knows what effect the unmetabolized stuff has, but based on Pat's links, it doesn't look great.

I don't think anybody is saying anything good about being deficient in folate. What the latest research is starting to show is that the form of folate that you get really does matter. I think we'd all agree that food sources of nutrients are best whenever possible, and this is providing an explanation of *why* that's true for this vitamin in particular.

If you really want a reference for any of this and aren't having luck on your own, I'll see what I can dig up. Like I said, I'm not getting so much computer time these days.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Well I don't know nuthin bout no dr fuhrman.









But







that's so funny to see a list of foods...b/c in my previous pregancy I craved and ate spinach leaves like potato chips out of the bag. And this pregnancy I am craving collard greens.

I slice the collard greens into strips, zest them with lime and a bit of balsamic vinegar then put them in a pan over heat for just a moment. Yum yum yum.

So who has a good source of supplemental folic acid? I've just been taking the bottle my mom passed to me...Bronson's labs?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

Pat, I would guess (since I'm not sure anyone knows for certain) that people with only one non-typical MTHFR gene would probably convert the folic acid pretty well. And the percentage with two copies of the non-typical MTHFR genes are a much smaller proportion of the population.

I do appreciate the concern regarding the "some people" can utilize folic acid. However, the issue regarding the cancers, asthma and other diseases linked to folic acid supplementation is concerning. And most pregnant women do not know if they are carrying the MTHFR gene and a large portion of the population has some polymorphism variant.

Pat


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

I think that there is no sound evidence to prove any of this, and thinking of it logically, most babies would not be healthy if this were true.

My head is spinning, honestly.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
However, the issue regarding the *cancers, asthma and other diseases linked to folic acid supplementation* is concerning.

Which study you linked above shows this data, please. I clicked on one and it showed no such thing. Thank you.


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
So who has a good source of supplemental folic acid? I've just been taking the bottle my mom passed to me...Bronson's labs?

*Thorne* supplements (multivits, B complexes, prenatal, other products as well, I think) have real folate (look for 5-mthf on the label), *Metagenics* has a 5-mthf only supp (if you want only folate and no other B vitamins or anything else), I _think_ there are a few other companies that make multis, I'm just not sure of the names. Anyone know the others?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I do appreciate the concern regarding the "some people" can utilize folic acid. However, the issue regarding the cancers, asthma and other diseases linked to folic acid supplementation is concerning. *And most pregnant women do not know if they are carrying the MTHFR gene and a large portion of the population has some polymorphism variant.*

Pat

And to me, that's the reason I would really like prenatals, and really, all vitamin supplements, but especially prenatals, to have actual folate, the same kind found in food. Between so-so diets and long-term, pre-existing health issues, plus all the weird chemicals in our environment that our bodies are trying to attach methyl groups to to excrete, I think many of us would be better off supplementing real folate. You know I'm a firm believer in supplements.


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## megviolet (Feb 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
I think that there is no sound evidence to prove any of this, and thinking of it logically, most babies would not be healthy if this were true.

My head is spinning, honestly.


This is what i'm thinking too...

OK- IDEALLY everyone would be eating whole foods, or at least food based natural supplements. But... that's not going to happen. At best, there will be a portion of the population that does this, and more and more people all the time hopefully making an effort to do this.

What about everyone else? Fear mongering about vitamins so they are afraid to take a prenatal and yet aren't able/don't know how to eat well enough to provide for the baby they are growing? Folic acid, for the majority, is better than nothing.

IN my life personally i've known 2 young girls that had to terminate their pregnancies because of sever neural tube defects... moms that had poor nutritional and only starting supplementing vitamins once finding out they were pregnant, and it wasn't enough. Devastating


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

a couple of things have popped out lately:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0817201946.htm -- folic acid additives to food are resulting in excess folic acid floating around the body leading to Pat's list of diseases.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1104111735.htm -- supplemental folic acid in late pregnancy may predispose the child to asthma later in life.

the science is not murky - folate is important for growing fetuses BUT ingest 5-MTHF or eat food folate. avoid folic acid.


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

But it really is not an all or nothing here.

I don't have to only slave over my stove (or juicer) to get food folate and I don't only have to have babies with severe neural tube defects to see the effects of not enough appropriate folate in my body (along with other essential nutrients).

I anticipate getting pregnant soon, so I am supplementing with metagenics 5-mthf supplement, and using a Thorne multi vite. On top of that I am doing normal healthy eating, juicing and adding lentils and liver a couple times a week which contains food folate. And I am doing the lentils and liver now, just in case I can't stand them in the early formative months of my pregnancy.

My boys do not have glaring signs of neural defects, but they do have midline issues (tongue ties, sacral dimple and one spit up to a level that made me suspicious it was a midline defect). Taking appropriate folate will help with these issues. These issues became an important part of them developing their non-ige food allergies. It was definitely a piece of their health puzzle.

Maybe this wouldn't be as much of an issue, except that folic acid is in our food supply, and we are encouraged to supplement it in large quantities. It also wouldn't be as much as an issue if not only lay people, but also doctors were aware of the difference between forms. I have found many doctors (and supplement companies and hfs advisors) either not understand or bother to explain the difference between folate (folinic acid) and folic acid. Often those two words are used interchangabley.

One problem I see is that folic acid is not necessarily better than nothing. It can be worse than nothing in the body, which WhoMe touched upon.


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *megviolet* 
Folic acid, for the majority, is better than nothing.

About HALF of the folate-related neural defects are explained by the most common genetic mutation at the MTHFR locus. (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/328/7455/1535)

Seems to me that genetic screening for MTHFR mutations prior to conception (or at least in early pregnancy) should become a de facto standard.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

Which study you linked above shows this data, please. I clicked on one and it showed no such thing. Thank you.
_1. Stolzenberg-Solomon RZ et al. Folate intake, alcohol use, and postmenopausal breast cancer risk in the Prostate, Lung, Colorectal, and Ovarian Cancer Screening Trial. Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Apr;83(4):895-904.
_*Conclusions:* Our results do not support the hypothesis that high folate intake reduces breast cancer risk; instead, they suggest that a high intake, generally attributable to supplemental folic acid, may increase the risk in postmenopausal women.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/83/4/895

_2. Kim YI. Does a high folate intake increase the risk of breast cancer? Nut Rev; 2006; 64(10PT1) 468-75.
_Furthermore, although food folate intake was not significantly related to breast cancer risk, total folate intake, mainly from folic acid supplementation, significantly increased breast cancer risk by 32%.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17063929

_3. Figueiredo JC et al. Folic acid and risk of prostate cancer: results from a randomized clinical trial. J Natl Cancer Inst. 2009 Mar 18;101(6):432-5. Epub 2009 Mar 10.
_ Folic acid supplementation was associated with increased risk of prostate cancer. By contrast, baseline dietary folate was inversely associated with prostate cancer risk.
http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/c...hort/101/6/432

_4. Fife, J et al. Folic Acid Supplementation and Colorectal Cancer Risk; A Meta-analysis. Colorectal Dis. 2009 Oct 27.
_In fact, a 2009 meta-analysis of studies of folic acid supplementation showed that those receiving supplements for over three years had an increased risk of pre-cancerous bowel adenomas and bowel cancer.
http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/can...r-risk-factors

_*5. Whitrow MJ. Effect of Supplemental Folic Acid in Pregnancy on Childhood Asthma: A Prospective Birth Cohort Study. Am J Epidemiol. 2009 Oct 30.*_
Asthma was reported in 11.6% of children at 3.5 years (n = 57) and in 11.8% of children at 5.5 years (n = 50). *Folic acid taken in supplement form in late pregnancy was associated with an increased risk of childhood asthma* at 3.5 years (relative risk (RR) = 1.26, 95% confidence interval (CI): 1.08, 1.43) *and with persistent asthma* (RR = 1.32, 95% CI: 1.03, 1.69).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19880541

_*6. Haberg SE, London SJ, Stigum H, Nafstad P, Nystad W. Folic acid supplements in pregnancy and early childhood respiratory health. Arch Dis Child. 2009 Mar;94(3):180-4.
*_CONCLUSIONS: Folic acid supplements in pregnancy were associated with a slightly increased risk of wheeze and lower respiratory tract infections up to 18 months of age. The results suggest that methyl donors in the maternal diet during pregnancy may influence respiratory health in children consistent with epigenetic mechanisms.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19052032

_7. Ebbing M et al. Cancer Incidence and Mortality After Treatment With Folic Acid and Vitamin B12. JAMA. 2009;302(19):2119-2126.
_ *Conclusion* Treatment with folic acid plus vitamin B12 was associated with increased cancer outcomes and all-cause mortality in patients with ischemic heart disease in Norway, where there is no folic acid fortification of foods.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/302/19/2119

_*8. Charles D et al. Taking folate in pregnancy and risk of maternal breast cancer. BMJ 2004;329:1375-6
*_In women randomised to high doses of supplemental folate, all cause mortality was about a fifth greater, and the risk of deaths attributable to breast cancer was twice as great.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC535452/

_9. Harvard School of Public Health; The Nutrition Source: Keep the Multi, Skip the Heavily Fortified Foods; www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/folicacid/ Date accessed: 8/29/08.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritio...cid/index.html

__10. Hirsch S et al. Colon cancer in Chile before and after the start of the flour fortification program with folic acid. Eur J Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2009 Apr;21(4):436-9.
_Conclusion: Our data provide new evidence that a folate fortification program could be associated with an additional risk of colon cancer.
http://journals.lww.com/eurojgh/Abst...e_start.7.aspx

_11. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/591111
_In an interview with _Medscape Oncology_, Dr. Mason said that the new data from Chile "contribute to this concern that the total amount of folic acid present in the food stream can potentially contribute to an increase in certain types of cancer."

*It is not just a question of folic-acid fortification of food, however; there is also the issue of folic-acid supplementation, such as in multivitamin pills.* Dr. Mason noted that recent data from the US Centers for Disease Control suggest that 70% to 80% of the general adult population has detectable levels of folic acid in the blood, but "under more natural conditions, folic acid would not even be present in the blood."

_*12. Kwan ML et al. Maternal diet and risk of childhood acute lymphoblastic leukemia. Public Health Rep. 2009 Jul-Aug;124(4):503-14.
*_CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that it may be prudent for women to consume a diet rich in vegetables and adequate in protein prior to and during pregnancy as a possible means of reducing childhood ALL risk in their offspring.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19618787

_Tower RL et al. The epidemiology of childhood leukemia with a focus on birth weight and diet. Crit Rev Clin Lab Sci. 2007;44(3):203-42.
_ Increased intake of fruits and vegetables has been associated with decreased leukemia risk and, relatedly, lack of maternal folate supplementation has been associated with increased childhood leukemia risk, possibly by causing DNA hypomethylation and increased DNA strand breaks. Methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase (MTHFR) gene polymorphisms modify this risk.
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs...ournalCode=lab

_Petridou E et al. Maternal diet and acute lymphoblastic leukemia in young children.Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2005 Aug;14(8):1935-9.
_ Thompson et al. (45) reported that offspring of women who during their pregnancies received supplements with folate (naturally found in several leafy vegetables) had lower risk of ALL. Additionally, Jensen et al. (46) have found that increased maternal intake immediately before the index pregnancy (and inferentially, during that pregnancy) of vegetables and fruits was associated with decreased risk of ALL.
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/14/8/1935.full

_*Pogoda JM et al. An international case-control study of maternal diet during pregnancy and childhood brain tumor risk: a histology-specific analysis by food group. Ann Epidemiol. 2009 Mar;19(3):148-60.
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/15/9/1660.full

*__14. Sellers TA et al. Dietary folate intake, alcohol, and risk of breast cancer in a prospective study of postmenopausal women. Epidemiology. 2001 Jul;12(4):420-8.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3703376

__15. Kim YI. Folic acid fortification and supplementation--good for some but not so good for others. Nutr Rev. 2007 Nov;65(11):504-11.
_However, recent human studies have suggested that FA supplementation and fortification may promote the progression of already existing, undiagnosed, preneoplastic and neoplastic lesions, thereby corroborating earlier observations from animal and in vitro studies.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18038943

_17. Bjelakovic G, Nikolava D, Gluud LL, et al. Antioxidant supplements for prevention of mortality in healthy participants and patient with various diseases. Cochrane Database Syst Rev 2008;16(2):CD00776.
_ MAIN RESULTS: Sixty-seven randomised trials with 232,550 participants were included.
CONCLUSIONS: We found no evidence to support antioxidant supplements for primary or secondary prevention. Vitamin A, beta-carotene, and vitamin E may increase mortality.

_18. Mayne ST. Beta-carotene, carotenoids, and disease prevention in humans. FASEB. 1996;10(7):690-701.
_ The finding that lung carcinogenesis and cardiovascular disease can be enhanced by supplemental beta-carotene may ultimately lead to a clearer understanding of the role of diet in the etiology and prevention of these diseases.
http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/abstract/10/7/690

_19. Goodman GE. Prevention of lung cancer. Current Opinion in Oncology 1998;10(2):122-126.
_CONCLUSIONS. After an average of four years of supplementation, the combination of beta carotene and vitamin A had no benefit and may have had an adverse effect on the incidence of lung cancer and on the risk of death from lung cancer, cardiovascular disease, and any cause in smokers and workers exposed to asbestos.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8602180
CONCLUSIONS: CARET participants receiving the combination of beta-carotene and vitamin A had no chemopreventive benefit and had excess lung cancer incidence and mortality.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8901853

_20. Kolata G. Studies Find Beta Carotene, Taken by Millions, Can't Forestall Cancer or Heart Disease. New York Times, Jan 19, 1996._People who took dietary supplements of the nutrient beta-carotene while enrolled in a large cancer prevention trial continued to have increased rates of lung cancer six years after the trial was stopped early and the supplements discontinued, long-term follow-up of trial participants has shown.
http://www.cancer.gov/clinicaltrials...inal-CARET1204

These are excerpts, conclusions and summaries from the above linked medical studies discouraging multi-vitamin supplementation, with links to the actual source documents.
*
PLEASE SHARE THIS INFORMATION AND THE LINKS WITH YOUR OB/GYN.*

Pat


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *megviolet* 
IN my life personally i've known 2 young girls that had to terminate their pregnancies because of sever neural tube defects... moms that had poor nutritional and only starting supplementing vitamins once finding out they were pregnant, and it wasn't enough. Devastating









I don't think it's fair to say that the two pregnancies you know of that ended with severe neural tube defects ended that way because the moms had poor nutrition and started prenatal vitamins too late. I also know someone who was very conscientious with nutrition who lost a baby to a severe neural tube defect. It is not fair to always blame the mom.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

thank you!


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## Koalamom (Dec 27, 2007)

Study or not, it is best to get your nutrient from food. You cannot go wrong that way. I like Garden of Life products since they are from whole foods.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

My interest in this issue grew from this study:

The researchers also say that they uncovered another interesting trend *that some people who received these nutrients from multivitamin pills had an increased risk of developing the disease.* According to the researchers, individuals who said they used multivitamins, and whose blood showed traces of these nutrients, had a *139 percent increased relative risk of developing pancreatic cancer.
* http://www.huliq.com/23341/dietary-v...ic-cancer-risk
http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cg...act/67/11/5553

Another separate study of 81,922 women and men, specific to folate from food sources.
*CONCLUSION:* _Our results suggest that increased intake of folate from food sources, but not from supplements, may be associated with a reduced risk of pancreatic cancer.
_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16537833

*EAT YOUR B-VITAMINS.*

_Recent research published in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute suggests that taking multivitamins more than seven times a week can increase the risks of contracting the disease. This research was unable to highlight the exact vitamins responsible for this increase (almost double), although they suggest that vitamin A, vitamin E and beta-carotene may lie at its heart. The correlation was strongest for men with a family history of the disease, and who also took selenium, beta-carotene or zinc supplements._
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6657795.stm

*Multivitamin Supplement Use and Risk of Breast Cancer: Discussion*
*In addition, past use (of multivitamin supplement) for 5 or more years was significantly associated with risk of developing ER-PR- breast cancer and breast tumors without lymph node metastasis.* The associations between multivitamin use and breast cancer risk differed according to tumor size; a reduced risk was observed for ≤2-cm tumors but *an increased risk for >2-cm tumors.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/578426_3

*Antacids and birth control pills inhibit folate bio-availability.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...nt-folate.html

*L-methyl folate is the most biologically active and usable form of supplemental folate.*
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/200184-overview#section~workup
http://www.mombu.com/medicine/skin-c...r-1904824.html

Pat


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

If you where like me and unable to eat well in early pg And had a very iffy diet before pg folic acid was a lifesaver.

I have nural tube defects on my moms side, dads side and dh's maternal side of the family. There is no way I would risk not taking folic acid while pg and before pg.

I just cant imagine taking that kind of risk with your childrens health.


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X* 
If you where like me and unable to eat well in early pg And had a very iffy diet before pg folic acid was a lifesaver.

I have nural tube defects on my moms side, dads side and dh's maternal side of the family. There is no way I would risk not taking folic acid while pg and before pg.

I just cant imagine taking that kind of risk with your childrens health.

no one is saying you absolutely shouldn't take something. It is about what form you should be taking if you are taking something. Folate (folinic acid) is the form your body know what to do with. So the discussion about not taking folic acid, is not saying you shouldn't take folinic acid.

Some in this discussion are staunch whole foods only, while others (including me) are happy to include high quality, correct form supplements in our lives.


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## Delicateflower (Feb 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Birth defects often occur due to the absence of adequate *food folate*, generally not the absence of synthetic B9 (folic acid),

Interesting. Do you have a peer-reviewed source for this statement?


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TanyaLopez* 
*Thorne* supplements (multivits, B complexes, prenatal, other products as well, I think) have real folate (look for 5-mthf on the label), *Metagenics* has a 5-mthf only supp (if you want only folate and no other B vitamins or anything else), I _think_ there are a few other companies that make multis, I'm just not sure of the names. Anyone know the others?

And to me, that's the reason I would really like prenatals, and really, all vitamin supplements, but especially prenatals, to have actual folate, the same kind found in food. Between so-so diets and long-term, pre-existing health issues, plus all the weird chemicals in our environment that our bodies are trying to attach methyl groups to to excrete, I think many of us would be better off supplementing real folate. You know I'm a firm believer in supplements.









Thanks, mama! I will check them out. This whole thread makes so much sense to me. I don't think I've quite hit a healthy level of whole foods in our lifestyle so I'd love to get the right supplement. And meanwhile I'll keep eating my collard greens.


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## stiss (Jun 13, 2007)

Wow, WuWei, you're pretty well-read, as far as abstracts go.

I decided to read a few of your articles. The actual articles. Not the abstracts. As you might expect, reading abstracts don't give you sufficient information. For instance,

Quote:

_*5. Whitrow MJ. Effect of Supplemental Folic Acid in Pregnancy on Childhood Asthma: A Prospective Birth Cohort Study. Am J Epidemiol. 2009 Oct 30.*
Asthma was reported in 11.6% of children at 3.5 years (n = 57) and in 11.8% of children at 5.5 years (n = 50). *Folic acid taken in supplement form in late pregnancy was associated with an increased risk of childhood asthma* at 3.5 years (relative risk (RR) = 1.26, 95% confidence interval (CI): 1.08, 1.43) *and with persistent asthma* (RR = 1.32, 95% CI: 1.03, 1.69).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19880541_
So, when you read the whole article, you find out that the authors reported:

Quote:

We found no increased risk associated with supplement use in early pregnancy.
And later:

Quote:

Current recommendations worldwide advocate a daily intake of around 400 lg of folic acid prior to pregnancy and in the first trimester
for the prevention of neural tube defects (4)...*Our findings are in agreement with current recommendations pre- and in early pregnancy*. However, they highlight the need to consider current supplementation strategies so as to maximize the neuroprotective effects of folic acid while minimizing potential adverse postnatal respiratory effects. We acknowledge
the need for further studies replicating our findings before any specific recommendations against folic acid supplementation in late pregnancy can be made.
The authors do NOT suggest that pregnant women forgo supplements in early pregnancy, and openly recommend that more studies are required before policy on prenatal supplementation (at any time in pregnancy) is reconsidered. They acknowledge the benefit of such supplements for the prevention of neural tube defects...but maybe they really are working for Big Pharma after all.

Oh, they also discussed several shortcomings with the Halberg study that you cite...for the record.

Next:

Quote:

_*8. Charles D et al. Taking folate in pregnancy and risk of maternal breast cancer. BMJ 2004;329:1375-6
*In women randomised to high doses of supplemental folate, all cause mortality was about a fifth greater, and the risk of deaths attributable to breast cancer was twice as great.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC535452/_
Yeah, that's what the abstract says. Want to know what the discussion says, IN THE AUTHORS' OWN WORDS?

Quote:

The increase in mortality and in death from breast cancer with high doses of folate could be a chance finding. The number of deaths was small, the confidence intervals were wide, and we had no prespecified hypothesis that taking folate supplements in pregnancy would increase the risk of cancer.
Oh, and that article drew criticism from a few other researchers. The letters are printed in BMJ if you want to bother reading them.

One more?



_Quote:_

Recent research published in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute suggests that *taking multivitamins more than seven times a week can increase the risks of contracting the disease*. This research was unable to highlight the exact vitamins responsible for this increase (almost double), although they suggest that vitamin A, vitamin E and beta-carotene may lie at its heart. The correlation was strongest for men with a family history of the disease, and who also took selenium, beta-carotene or zinc supplements.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6657795.stm

So...this article is about taking too many mulitvitamins - more than the daily recommended dosage, and its link with PROSTATE cancer, right? Also, how does this study relate to folic acid in prenatals?

Shall I go on? I've got nothing against promoting that pregnant woman eat nutritional food, nor am I suggesting that if a woman can ensure that her diet meets all the recommended dietary requirements, that she needs to take a multi-vitamin. That said, going around *warning* people not to take multi-vitamins based on research that you haven't even read (unless you just ignored the stuff I found?) is not only irresponsible, but dangerous. For crying out loud...


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

I will say that most vitamins are absorbed better if you get them through food, but that can really be a challenge. There's nothing wrong with taking supplements. I had a really hard time recovering from pregnancy as I had hyperemesis and couldn't keep vitamins down, I always wished I could just keep the supplements down!


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

I feel like it's really unfortunate this discussion began and continued on such an inflammatory note. I think the real message here is: folic acid/folinic acid/folate is an incredibly important contributor to reducing neural tube defects.

For many people, folic acid is a perfectly acceptable form of this really important compound. It is not, however, the form found naturally in foods, and some people have genetic mutations or other nutrient deficiencies that make it difficult for them to use folic acid properly. For those people, folic acid can be detrimental (as would many substances your body can't use properly).

More importantly though, especially in a pregnancy forum, for people who have difficulty using folic acid, you won't get the protective benefits against neural tube defects unless you are taking folate (in food or supps form). What I take away from this is that it is a pretty simple thing for me to ensure I get enough of the folate form of this compound, in case I'm one of the people who can't use folic acid well.

I know the OP, and I fully believe she simply wants the best for babies, and to get word out about an important and simple thing pregnant mamas can do so you don't end up in the allergies forum with many of us who popped into this thread, wishing you'd known about folate earlier (instead of when you have a child with midline defects and/or allergies and/or other issues because of an inability to handle folic acid well). That said, I don't think it's the message I would have taken from the original post. There is such pressure on all us mamas to do the very best for our babies, and it's so hard to know what those things are!

Blessings to all the little ones you're growing...


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delicateflower* 
Interesting. Do you have a peer-reviewed source for this statement?

Role of parental folate pathway single nucleotide polymorphisms in altering the susceptibility to neural tube defects in South India.

Variants of folate metabolism genes and the risk of conotruncal cardiac defects.

The methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase gene variant (C677T) as a susceptibility gene for tetralogy of Fallot.

Genetics of human neural tube defects.

MTHFR C677T polymorphism as a risk factor of neural tube defects in Malay: a case control study.

High milk consumers have an increased risk of folate receptor blocking autoantibody production but this does not affect folate status in Spanish men and women.

Methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase deficiency and low dietary folate increase embryonic delay and placental abnormalities in mice.

[A case-control study on the risk factors of neural tube defects in Shanxi province]

Genetic and biochemical determinants of serum concentrations of monocyte chemoattractant protein-1, a potential neural tube defect risk factor.

Methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase, common polymorphisms, and relation to disease.

Methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase (MTHFR) gene polymorphisms resulting in suboptimal oocyte maturation: a discussion of folate status, neural tube defects, schizophrenia, and vasculopathy.

Has enhanced folate status during pregnancy altered natural selection and possibly Autism prevalence? A closer look at a possible link.

Polymorphisms in genes related to folate and cobalamin metabolism and the associations with complex birth defects.

Two MTHFR polymorphisms, maternal B-vitamin intake, and CHDs.

Of interest is the significant interaction (p = .008) towards a nearly twofold increased risk (CHD) in mothers carrying the MTHFR 1298C allele and using a periconception folic acid supplement.

Pat


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## megviolet (Feb 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sanguine_speed* 
I don't think it's fair to say that the two pregnancies you know of that ended with severe neural tube defects ended that way because the moms had poor nutrition and started prenatal vitamins too late. I also know someone who was very conscientious with nutrition who lost a baby to a severe neural tube defect. It is not fair to always blame the mom.

Totally true, and i didn't mean to imply that. I'm just going by what i know of these 2 specific cases, one was a friend in highschool and the other was a different friend's cousin... and what they/I were told at the time was it was folic acid... one had an eating disorder and the other had (according to her) an allergy to bread and cereal... so... i wasn't trying to overgeneralize, sorry









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
I feel like it's really unfortunate this discussion began and continued on such an inflammatory note. I think the real message here is: folic acid/folinic acid/folate is an incredibly important contributor to reducing neural tube defects.

For many people, folic acid is a perfectly acceptable form of this really important compound. It is not, however, the form found naturally in foods, and some people have genetic mutations or other nutrient deficiencies that make it difficult for them to use folic acid properly. For those people, folic acid can be detrimental (as would many substances your body can't use properly).

More importantly though, especially in a pregnancy forum, for people who have difficulty using folic acid, you won't get the protective benefits against neural tube defects unless you are taking folate (in food or supps form). What I take away from this is that it is a pretty simple thing for me to ensure I get enough of the folate form of this compound, in case I'm one of the people who can't use folic acid well.

I know the OP, and I fully believe she simply wants the best for babies, and to get word out about an important and simple thing pregnant mamas can do so you don't end up in the allergies forum with many of us who popped into this thread, wishing you'd known about folate earlier (instead of when you have a child with midline defects and/or allergies and/or other issues because of an inability to handle folic acid well). That said, I don't think it's the message I would have taken from the original post. There is such pressure on all us mamas to do the very best for our babies, and it's so hard to know what those things are!

Blessings to all the little ones you're growing...

I can see this.... the initial post came across wrong and i don't think anyone would debate that folate is better than folic acid.
I've been waiting over a month to get the supplements i ordered online and in the meantime taking a multivitamin sparingly while dealing with morning sickness and making a huge effort to get what i need from a whole foods diet


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## WaitingForKiddos (Nov 30, 2006)

Is it me or did the thread's title change?


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WaitingForKiddos* 
Is it me or did the thread's title change?

It changed. I actually saw it in New Posts and thought is was a X-post, then I started reading and all the replies were the same


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## CrunchyChristianMama (Dec 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TanyaLopez* 
I _think_ there are a few other companies that make multis, I'm just not sure of the names. Anyone know the others?


New Chapter Prenatal uses a whole food folate. I emailed the company directly to ask them about it and was quite reassured by the response I received.


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## Mamatoto2 (Sep 2, 2002)

So, I have a question (because I knew that I should have been taking 5-MTFH rather than folic acid but it fell through the cracks in my mindful prenatal supplement planning)...is there a "critical point" past which the opportunity to benefit from it is lost (or severely minimized)? I recall that earlier research promoted the use of "folic acid" as being most important prior to conception and within the first few weeks after conception. I'm just about 30 weeks at this point and I'm wondering if it's too late to boost 5-MTFH at this point or if it's still helpful throughout pregnancy/BFing.

My DD#1 has midline issues, some sensory sensitivities, etc. My DD#2 has a sacral dimple, my niece has a tongue tie, and my nephew has autism, in addition to family histories of autoimmune ssues of various types. I supplement with B-12 sublingual, D3, Omega 3, calcium/magnesium, probiotics, floradix (iron) and liquid zinc sulphate as needed (to taste) in addition to Nature's Plus Source of Life Prenatal. I think I'd probably add on 1 Metagenics FolaPro/day and reduce my Prenatal to 1/day vs. 2/day. It would leave me with 800mg. 5-MTFH and 400mg. folic acid. I'd keep the prenatal at the 1/2 dose for the other things in it that I want to get, but I don't want to switch to any of the other prenatals that have a better source of folate because they all contain copper as well and I don't want to take any copper (I don't respond well to it, and my DD#1 had major zinc/copper imbalance issues, so I generally avoid copper like the plague). Any thoughts?


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WuWei
Birth defects often occur due to the absence of adequate food folate, generally not the absence of synthetic B9 (folic acid),
Interesting. Do you have a peer-reviewed source for this statement?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Role of parental folate pathway single nucleotide polymorphisms in altering the susceptibility to neural tube defects in South India.

Variants of folate metabolism genes and the risk of conotruncal cardiac defects.

The methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase gene variant (C677T) as a susceptibility gene for tetralogy of Fallot.

Genetics of human neural tube defects.

MTHFR C677T polymorphism as a risk factor of neural tube defects in Malay: a case control study.

High milk consumers have an increased risk of folate receptor blocking autoantibody production but this does not affect folate status in Spanish men and women.

Methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase deficiency and low dietary folate increase embryonic delay and placental abnormalities in mice.

[A case-control study on the risk factors of neural tube defects in Shanxi province]

Genetic and biochemical determinants of serum concentrations of monocyte chemoattractant protein-1, a potential neural tube defect risk factor.

Methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase, common polymorphisms, and relation to disease.

Methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase (MTHFR) gene polymorphisms resulting in suboptimal oocyte maturation: a discussion of folate status, neural tube defects, schizophrenia, and vasculopathy.

Has enhanced folate status during pregnancy altered natural selection and possibly Autism prevalence? A closer look at a possible link.

Polymorphisms in genes related to folate and cobalamin metabolism and the associations with complex birth defects.

Two MTHFR polymorphisms, maternal B-vitamin intake, and CHDs.

Of interest is the significant interaction (p = .008) towards a nearly twofold increased risk (CHD) in mothers carrying the MTHFR 1298C allele and using a periconception folic acid supplement.

Pat

First of all, a bunch of those cites simply are not responses to the question, which was asking for cites showing that birth defects occur in the absence of food but not synthetic folate. Going down the list, actually, I have yet to find one that discusses natural vs. synthetic folate, and in fact many do not mention folate intake *levels* at all, merely the pathways by which it is processed.

Also, a quick check on the full texts of several of these that do discuss folate levels shows that they do not, in fact, differentiate between folate and folic acid, do not differentiate between dietary and supplemental folate, and in fact use folic acid supplements exclusively in the experimental designs (the animal studies use synthetics almost exclusively to ensure accurate measurement of intake).

I do not have time tonight to look them up and read them all. But I do not find them responsive to the question that was asked.


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamatoto2* 
So, I have a question (because I knew that I should have been taking 5-MTFH rather than folic acid but it fell through the cracks in my mindful prenatal supplement planning)...is there a "critical point" past which the opportunity to benefit from it is lost (or severely minimized)? I recall that earlier research promoted the use of "folic acid" as being most important prior to conception and within the first few weeks after conception. I'm just about 30 weeks at this point and I'm wondering if it's too late to boost 5-MTFH at this point or if it's still helpful throughout pregnancy/BFing.

30 weeks is clearly past the neural tube closing, and I think past all the organs forming, at this point they're growing. But I'll always vote for figuring out the nutrients _we_ need and working on that. Your baby is probably quite like you and your other kids, and may need more folate, actual folate, than most, and B vitamins transfer in breastmilk quite well, proportionate to what mom consumes. Only a few minerals do that, so folate seems like a nice one to upgrade.

My DD#1 has midline issues, some sensory sensitivities, etc. My DD#2 has a sacral dimple, my niece has a tongue tie, and my nephew has autism, in addition to family histories of autoimmune ssues of various types. I supplement with B-12 sublingual, D3, Omega 3, calcium/magnesium, probiotics, floradix (iron) and liquid zinc sulphate as needed (to taste) in addition to Nature's Plus Source of Life Prenatal. I think I'd probably add on 1 Metagenics FolaPro/day and reduce my Prenatal to 1/day vs. 2/day. It would leave me with 800mg. 5-MTFH and 400mg. folic acid. I'd keep the prenatal at the 1/2 dose for the other things in it that I want to get, but I don't want to switch to any of the other prenatals that have a better source of folate because they all contain copper as well and I don't want to take any copper (I don't respond well to it, and my DD#1 had major zinc/copper imbalance issues, so I generally avoid copper like the plague). Any thoughts?

Probably the Thorne Basic Nutrients (their basic multivit) is too high in some things? It's higher than a prenatal but doesn't look generally unreasonable IMO, but I don't know your situation. They have 4 or 5 versions of their Basic Nutrients and 3 of them are without copper and iron (lots of us have too little zinc and too much copper). But if the dosage for that isn't right (they have 1000mcg of folate, half 5-mthf and half folinic acid, but I know that isn't your only consideration), then your plan seems reasonable.


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## KatWrangler (Mar 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamatoto2* 
So, I have a question (because I knew that I should have been taking 5-MTFH rather than folic acid but it fell through the cracks in my mindful prenatal supplement planning)...is there a "critical point" past which the opportunity to benefit from it is lost (or severely minimized)? I recall that earlier research promoted the use of "folic acid" as being most important prior to conception and within the first few weeks after conception. *I'm just about 30 weeks at this point and I'm wondering if it's too late to boost 5-MTFH at this point* or if it's still helpful throughout pregnancy/BFing.

My DD#1 has midline issues, some sensory sensitivities, etc. My DD#2 has a sacral dimple, my niece has a tongue tie, and my nephew has autism, in addition to family histories of autoimmune ssues of various types. I supplement with B-12 sublingual, D3, Omega 3, calcium/magnesium, probiotics, floradix (iron) and liquid zinc sulphate as needed (to taste) in addition to Nature's Plus Source of Life Prenatal. I think I'd probably add on 1 Metagenics FolaPro/day and reduce my Prenatal to 1/day vs. 2/day. It would leave me with 800mg. 5-MTFH and 400mg. folic acid. I'd keep the prenatal at the 1/2 dose for the other things in it that I want to get, but I don't want to switch to any of the other prenatals that have a better source of folate because they all contain copper as well and I don't want to take any copper (I don't respond well to it, and my DD#1 had major zinc/copper imbalance issues, so I generally avoid copper like the plague). Any thoughts?

Bolding mine.

No the neural tube is already formed. It's within the first 3-4 weeks of gestation (might even be 6 weeks...I just know it's very early pregnancy this happens). Thats what one of our Neurosurgeons told us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_tube_defect


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## Pinoikoi (Oct 30, 2003)

subbing


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## graciegal (Jun 2, 2009)

Folate versus Folic Acid is an organic chemistry issue.

-ate and -ic acid are NOT the same. one is an oxidized form of the other...technically, the folate is oxidized with glutamate molecules, which are removed during absorption as part of the natural digestion pathway. After the glutamates are removed, it is "free" to bond to other molecules (because it was and now it's not, and it wants to be again - a simple chemistry covalent bonding idea). That makes it biologically active. And, since our enzymes only recognize certain "versions" of molecules, folic acid renders a large part of our enzymatic process (and transcellular protein transporters) useless. Also, when eating food-sourced folates (versus synthetic folic acid) youre going to get all the co-vitamins, co-enzyes, and other complimentary molecules that are needed in the proper ratios to help absorb and use folate appropriately. It's like thinking you can just pop a "vitamin C" pill (made from who knows what in who knows which form) and think your body is going to use it.

I read a lot of people saying "that's stupid" and "don't listen to that person" without them actually (apparently) understanding that biochemically, an -ate and an -ic acid are SO totally different in the pathways of absorption and then of later use.

It's a basic organic chemistry topic covered in undergrad chemistry and ISN'T voodoo science made to trick people.

http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrar...79/11/2807.pdf


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## graciegal (Jun 2, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *megviolet* 
i don't think anyone would debate that folate is better than folic acid.


You mean that folic acid (synthetic) is better than folate (natural form).


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

Thank you graciegal for the description. And after a year of studying biochem with a great bunch of ladies, I am happy to say I understood it all.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatWrangler* 
Bolding mine.

No the neural tube is already formed. It's within the first 3-4 weeks of gestation (might even be 6 weeks...I just know it's very early pregnancy this happens). Thats what one of our Neurosurgeons told us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_tube_defect

Hmm, interesting. So (not asking for medical advice) would you say this idea of a woman popping a folic acid pill every day of her pregnancy is...well, useless?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
Hmm, interesting. So (not asking for medical advice) would you say this idea of a woman popping a folic acid pill every day of her pregnancy is...well, useless?

*Whitrow MJ et al., Effect of Supplemental Folic Acid in Pregnancy on Childhood Asthma: A Prospective Birth Cohort Study.Am J Epidemiol. 2009 Oct 30.*
Folic acid supplementation during late pregnancy is associated with an increased risk of childhood asthma, increased risk of persistent asthma, and poorer respiratory function in young children.

A study at the University of Adelaide concluded that the intake of folic acid supplements during late pregnancy increases the risk of babies developing childhood asthma by 30%, although researchers emphasized that their finding did not contradict recommendations to supplement folic acid in first trimester, when no additional risk was found.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19880541

Pat


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## KatWrangler (Mar 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
Hmm, interesting. So (not asking for medical advice) would you say this idea of a woman popping a folic acid pill every day of her pregnancy is...well, useless?

It's only necessary prior to pregnancy and the first trimester. Thats what I was lead to believe. If the Neural tube is developed early in the 1st trimester, why continue?


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatWrangler* 
It's only necessary prior to pregnancy and the first trimester. Thats what I was lead to believe. If the Neural tube is developed early in the 1st trimester, why continue?

The methyl cycle is responsible for clearing all sorts of toxins and methylating DNA, making and deactivating neurotransmitters, and many other critical functions. Folate is required for the methyl cycle. It's still a basic nutrient that's required by everyone, every day.

Folic acid and folate aren't the same thing, but folic acid can do some of the same functions that folate does. I'm currently 31 weeks pregnant, and have been supplementing methyl folate and folinic acid the entire pregnancy as well as before. No folic acid at any time.

Are you using folic acid and folate interchangeably? Or are you saying there's some benefit to synthetic folic acid over folate in terms of the neural tube?


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatWrangler* 
It's only necessary prior to pregnancy and the first trimester. Thats what I was lead to believe. If the Neural tube is developed early in the 1st trimester, why continue?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
The methyl cycle is responsible for clearing all sorts of toxins and methylating DNA, making and deactivating neurotransmitters, and many other critical functions. Folate is required for the methyl cycle. It's still a basic nutrient that's required by everyone, every day.

Folic acid and folate aren't the same thing, but folic acid can do some of the same functions that folate does. I'm currently 31 weeks pregnant, and have been supplementing methyl folate and folinic acid the entire pregnancy as well as before. No folic acid at any time.

Are you using folic acid and folate interchangeably? Or are you saying there's some benefit to synthetic folic acid over folate in terms of the neural tube?

Ok, so for neural tube development specifically, folate is important pre-conception and 1st trimester...but folate is overall an important aspect of healthy living.

??


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
Ok, so for neural tube development specifically, folate is important pre-conception and 1st trimester...but folate is overall an important aspect of healthy living.

??

Folate is a B vitamin that is just as necessary as vitamin C or calcium or protein. Each serves it's own purpose, and can't be missing from the diet without deficiency symptoms appearing.

The neural tube develops very early in pregnancy, and so folate status is especially important then - preconception and while the tube is forming.

Folic acid is a substitute for folate that works, kinda, but isn't exactly the same. So in cases of extreme folate deficiency, it could probably make the difference of a neural tube defect or not. But given the choice, I choose to avoid it and prefer the forms that don't require enzymatic conversion.

The way I first learned about all this was in trying to heal my dd's food sensitivities. When I replaced the folic acid in *my* B complex with food folate (lentils), in the next day or two, my nursing 2yo spontaneously broke her 'milk and video' addiction and decided to play by herself all day long. And the red rash that she got from raw tomatoes touching her skin stopped happening. Yes, folate is a very important part of healthy living, pregnant or not.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Folate is a B vitamin that is just as necessary as vitamin C or calcium or protein. Each serves it's own purpose, and can't be missing from the diet without deficiency symptoms appearing.

The neural tube develops very early in pregnancy, and so folate status is especially important then - preconception and while the tube is forming.

Folic acid is a substitute for folate that works, kinda, but isn't exactly the same. So in cases of extreme folate deficiency, it could probably make the difference of a neural tube defect or not. But given the choice, I choose to avoid it and prefer the forms that don't require enzymatic conversion.

The way I first learned about all this was in trying to heal my dd's food sensitivities. When I replaced the folic acid in *my* B complex with food folate (lentils), in the next day or two, my nursing 2yo spontaneously broke her 'milk and video' addiction and decided to play by herself all day long. And the red rash that she got from raw tomatoes touching her skin stopped happening. Yes, folate is a very important part of healthy living, pregnant or not.









You know about a month before conception I was taking a b complex and I haven't even looked at the ingredients...I'm sure it is folic acid b/c it's just a basic grocery store brand. Anyways, DD has been getting a contact red face with raw tomatoes and berries since then!

And I stopped taking it when I got a positive b/c I heard that B6 can impact milk supply. Rash, gone.

I was just blaming it on the dry and cold weather we've had. Now I wonder.

At any rate, you mamas are surely a great resource and I appreciate that you all take the time to explain these things.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

*Siega-Riz AM. Second trimester folate status and preterm birth. Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2004 Dec;191(6):1851-7.*
*Conclusion*: These results support the hypothesis that low dietary folate intake during the second trimester of pregnancy are associated with an increased risk of preterm birth.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15592264

Pat


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

I for one wish that I knew all this before I got pregnant with dd. Aside from a tiny sacral dimple, dd had no obvious issues at birth. But we found out soon enough that she has a gazillion intolerances, many true allergies (and at least one life threatening), sleep issues, behavior issues, etc. Most of them related to methylation. Now that I know more and can look at the medical history of my and dh's families, it is so obvious that even though the allergies are "new", the methylation problems have been around a long time.
I am very thankful for Pat and the other informed mamas on the allergy forum. And I actually think it might be good to post this on the on the ttc forum.


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## Pinoikoi (Oct 30, 2003)

Well, I am confused.. I take this brand http://www.appleadayandbeyond.com/es...cfm?p=431&c=69

which lists folic acid, but then at the bottom it talks about organic kale and spinach juice, so wouldn't that actually be folate instead?


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pinoikoi* 
Well, I am confused.. I take this brand http://www.appleadayandbeyond.com/es...cfm?p=431&c=69

which lists folic acid, but then at the bottom it talks about organic kale and spinach juice, so wouldn't that actually be folate instead?

The two terms get used interchangeably a LOT, so I'd contact the company and find out for sure.


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## Koalamom (Dec 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
The two terms get used interchangeably a LOT, so I'd contact the company and find out for sure.

If you do contact them, please let us know what they say.


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## bohemama (Jan 29, 2005)

ok somewhat hypothetical question here...

What if a mom unexpectedly got pregnant, didn't have a diet rich in folate before she got pregnant, and now has m/s to the extent that she can't fathom eating much and can't keep a supplement down either. Will she for sure have a baby that has some sort of problem or defect?


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## Mamatoto2 (Sep 2, 2002)

Hmmm, so is THIS really "good" folate? I found it online for less that 25% the cost of FolaPro but it's obviously not a savings if it's not the right product. Any thoughts?


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bohemama* 
ok somewhat hypothetical question here...

What if a mom unexpectedly got pregnant, didn't have a diet rich in folate before she got pregnant, and now has m/s to the extent that she can't fathom eating much and can't keep a supplement down either. Will she for sure have a baby that has some sort of problem or defect?

Nope, not at all. Folic acid helps to prevent neural tube defects - there are a number of different specific conditions. The actual rates for each one vary but it is usually only 2-3 per 1000 births *at most* without supplementation. Individual risk may increase a bit if a woman was very folate deficient.

With supplementation the rates of neural tube defects reduce by about 80% but do not disappear completely.

Almost nothing is "for sure" in health


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bohemama* 
ok somewhat hypothetical question here...

What if a mom unexpectedly got pregnant, didn't have a diet rich in folate before she got pregnant, and now has m/s to the extent that she can't fathom eating much and can't keep a supplement down either. Will she for sure have a baby that has some sort of problem or defect?

Probably about half the pregnancies in the US fit into this category. The typical US diet isn't folate rich, and roughly half of pregnancies are unplanned, and the time period when the neural tube is closing is quite soon after the first missed period.


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## mom61508 (May 10, 2009)

wow very interesting info! So If you were going to be trying to get pregnant(i'm not anytime soon)what supp would you take for folate? Would you get from food and supp? I know I would feel most comfortable supping as well as trying to get from foods but Lord knows the 1st tri is hard when it comes to eating


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## Mamatoto2 (Sep 2, 2002)

Just wanted to say thanks. This thread (and some others) prompted me to switch to a folate supplement FolaPro and request a MTHFR test last week when I was at the perinatologist (even though they supposedly tested me twice over for bleeding/clotting disorders due to my SCHs with this pregnancy and Hx of post-partum hemorrhage with my first). I have a homozygous c677 MTHFR mutation. Begins to explain a bunch of things throughout the family tree....knowledge is power


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamatoto2* 
Just wanted to say thanks. This thread (and some others) prompted me to switch to a folate supplement FolaPro and request a MTHFR test last week when I was at the perinatologist (even though they supposedly tested me twice over for bleeding/clotting disorders due to my SCHs with this pregnancy and Hx of post-partum hemorrhage with my first). I have a homozygous c677 MTHFR mutation. Begins to explain a bunch of things throughout the family tree....knowledge is power









What hemorrhage issues have you had? I want to investigate that more. I understand clotting issues are associated with MTHFR, but from a 'too much' clotting pov.

Thanks, Pat


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## Mamatoto2 (Sep 2, 2002)

I hemorrhaged immediately following my 1st DD's birth and had a second hemorrhage 2 days later at which point it was determined that I had retained a lobe of my (double lobed) placenta which had adhered to my cervix. I also was diagnosed with subchorionic hemorrhages with this pregnancy, which seemed to come from the corner of my placenta pulling away from my uterine wall.

So, the way I think about it, I could have a bleeding problem wherein I didn't clot properly at my 1st delivery and the 2nd hemorrhage was due to retained placental fragments. Then the sch could be due to improper clotting from implantation bleeding or something....OR

I have placenta abruption problems and my placenta may have partially abrupted at delivery #1 which is why part properly vacated my uterus and part stayed AND I had a partial abruption this pregnancy which led to the schs, which would be consistent with the MTHFR.

That said, I don't bruise easily, no history of miscarriage, no super heavy menses, and a childhood history of frequent fairly major nosebleeds.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Did you have HELLP syndrome?

Pat


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## Mamatoto2 (Sep 2, 2002)

No. I had pretty severe edema starting about midway through the pregnancy and my BP began to climb toward the end, but never to the point where my MWs became seriously concerned. I assume that my urine looked okay because they never mentioned it to me as a problem.


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## Jenne (May 21, 2004)

This last 24 hours have been a whirlwind of emotion. But admist it all I kept thinking, "Thank you, Pat! Thank you, Pat!" over and over.

So, I read this thread completely when it first appeared in January. I had been taking a grocery store brand prenatal because I tolerated it well for about a year. I had my first loss in 10/2009. The first week of February I started my new prenatal which was food based and had 1000mg of folate not folic acid. I had my second loss that same week. I continued taking the new prenatal and have since then. I discovered I was pregnant at the end of May and at the appointment with my new RE she mentioned that my previous RE had tested for many things (at my insistence) after my first loss but there were a few things he missed. She mentioned he hadn't checked for MTHFR. I said that I thought he had. Turns out he just checked my homocysteine level which was normal. At my, "Well, if we are taking blood anyway, why don't we check MTHFR too?" She agreed. Turns out I am compound heterozygous for MTHFR mutation. Yep. I started on the food based supplement Metanx today. I credit *still* being pregnant with the fact that since February I have been on Folate. It may only be coincidence but I just don't believe it.

Thank you Pat for helping to realize my dream of motherhood by bringing this knowledge to me. I appreciate the time and attention you have given this matter. I am speechless with gratitude.

Sincerely,
Jenne

PS- Also, thank you for helping me to help my parents and brother who live with a variety of MTHFR mutation side effects: allergies, hardening of the arteries, Type II Diabetes, nueropathy, and fibromyalgia. I was able to share the MTHFR information with them.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I'm delighted at your note. Thank you for sharing. I would suggest considering Methyl-B12 as a sublingual, rather than an oral tablet. B12 is poorly absorbable in the stomach. Liver would be an ideal source.








http://www.health101.org/art_methylcobalamin.htm

Also, I don't know about the B6 supplement; however, this one has sulfate which is important for the detox pathways. Although, sulfate is poorly absorbably in the gut. Epsom salt baths are ideal. http://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/Pyrr...5/7171550.html

Homocysteine levels are lowered (without benefit) by synthetic folic acid. Therefore are an inaccurate representation of MTHFR status.

Here is the product insert for Metanxy. It is considered a "medical food" (ie. nutrient by prescription (patent formula). It is not a food based supplement. 2-4 cups daily (total) of beans, greens, legumes, liver is the whole food source of these nutrients.
http://www.metanx.com/HCP,PackageInsert

World's Healthiest Foods:
B6: http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=108
B12: http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=107
Folate: http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=63

Take wonderful care,

Pat


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## m0xxie (May 18, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I'm delighted at your note. Thank you for sharing. I would suggest considering Methyl-B12 as a sublingual, rather than an oral tablet. B12 is poorly absorbable in the stomach. Liver would be an ideal source.








http://www.health101.org/art_methylcobalamin.htm


No less an authority than the March of Dimes cautions women about liver consumption during pregnancy, "A pregnant woman who eats liver regularly may consume enough vitamin A to pose a risk to her baby. "

"The body makes its own vitamin A, when needed, from substances such as beta carotene, which is found in yellow and green vegetables. This raw material for the vitamin is completely safe and healthy during pregnancy. However, much of the vitamin A consumed is the preformed vitamin (retinol) which, in excessive amounts, may cause birth defects. "

"Liver is the only food that provides very high amounts of vitamin A. For example (7):

* A 3-ounce serving of beef liver may contain 27,000 IUs.
* A 3-ounce serving of chicken liver may contain 12,000 IUs."

http://www.marchofdimes.com/professi...14332_1152.asp


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m0xxie* 
No less an authority than the March of Dimes cautions women about liver consumption during pregnancy, "A pregnant woman who eats liver regularly may consume enough vitamin A to pose a risk to her baby. "


Weston A. Price Foundation disagrees. Here is their discussion of the concern regarding Vit A and Vit D ratios: http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-live...-straight.html

And specifically regarding liver consumption during pregnancy: http://www.westonaprice.org/childrens-health/309.html

Pat


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## kl5 (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m0xxie* 
"Liver is the only food that provides very high amounts of vitamin A. For example (7):

* A 3-ounce serving of beef liver may contain 27,000 IUs.
* A 3-ounce serving of chicken liver may contain 12,000 IUs."

At 27 weeks, this is a good reminder that I need to eat more liver!!!


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## summerlilies (Feb 6, 2006)

I have a friend who is tongue-tied. She has had 1 child and then 8 miscarriages - all around 6 weeks. Could this be MTHFR? If so, what specific blood tests would she ask for and what can she do to prevent another miscarriage?

Thank you Pat and others for this information.


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## corysmilk (Jan 2, 2004)

ok not trying to be rude, but why is this in the already pregant section? I am going to worry now about another thing. I do not have money just sitting here, waiting for me to order stuff online. we are an average family with very little income. I come to these boards because I breastfeed and use cloth and I am interested in learning more. but to be told My baby is going to have this and that, cause I can't afford the GOOD stuff is well... bull.
I have 3 seemingly healthy children.
way to make a prego mama scared!


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## Koalamom (Dec 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *corysmilk* 
ok not trying to be rude, but why is this in the already pregant section? I am going to worry now about another thing. I do not have money just sitting here, waiting for me to order stuff online. we are an average family with very little income. I come to these boards because I breastfeed and use cloth and I am interested in learning more. but to be told My baby is going to have this and that, cause I can't afford the GOOD stuff is well... bull.
I have 3 seemingly healthy children.
way to make a prego mama scared!

Interesting point. Perhaps it should be in the TTC section?

I hear ya about not enough money for fancy supplements. I can only afford whole foods and we eat alot of greens and lentils everyday and liver once a week if we can afford it. Grass fed liver is $5 a package.
We have a green smoothie, and a huge helping of steamed greens. I think we are doing well for folate. And we drink nettles infusion everyday.

If I had the MTHFR gene (who knows if I do, never tested) , I may look into homeopathy and different trace minerals as both have been known to actually change the genes. We are doing these things anyway and are seeing difference in our food allergy reactions.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *summerlilies* 
I have a friend who is tongue-tied. She has had 1 child and then 8 miscarriages - all around 6 weeks. Could this be MTHFR? If so, what specific blood tests would she ask for and what can she do to prevent another miscarriage?

Thank you Pat and others for this information.

I'd ask for the MTHFR gene blood test.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *corysmilk* 
ok not trying to be rude, but why is this in the already pregant section? I am going to worry now about another thing. I do not have money just sitting here, waiting for me to order stuff online. we are an average family with very little income. I come to these boards because I breastfeed and use cloth and I am interested in learning more. but to be told My baby is going to have this and that, cause I can't afford the GOOD stuff is well... bull.
I have 3 seemingly healthy children.
way to make a prego mama scared!

The issue is that during pregnancy, taking synthetic folic acid has risks. And the emphasis on EATING food folate for proper DNA development. Both are empowering and important actions that a pregnant mother can do.

Nothing to order on line. Eat Greens.

Pat


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## corysmilk (Jan 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
The issue is that during pregnancy, taking synthetic folic acid has risks. And the emphasis on EATING food folate for proper DNA development. Both are empowering and important actions that a pregnant mother can do.

Nothing to order on line. Eat Greens.

Pat

well I take extra of the bad folic acid, see I was told it was ok. now your saying its not. I do eat greens, beans, liver once in while, I like it. but not everyday. i still think this should be moved so we don't have to worry about more stuff. put it in a diffrent section.

I know a woman who could not eat while pg and she never misscarried and the baby was fine. she drank insure, when she could keep it down.

I have been looking at the links and how can you say nothiing needs to be bought? keifer starters, probiaotics there was more, i can't recall right now.

anyway I know my baby is healthy and fine.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

I think there will always be new things to "worry about" when pg. That is just how life is. I like all the new information. Because, it helps me make better decisions. And if I don't like it or can't afford it, I will retain the good part of the info and leave the rest.

I think that if you are a worrier, then you need to be extra careful on any of these boards. Because you will always find things to worry about. If you are not, like me, it does not really matter.


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## WaitingForKiddos (Nov 30, 2006)

Corysmilk, I agree with you. When this thread was first posted months ago it was titled something like 'folic acid is bad' (not exactly that wording). I, being a mama who was then taking a BIG (2-4mg) of 'fake' folate daily to keep my baby healthy. I felt it was a harmful post for those of us who can't/don't eat natural folate in the big quantities that our healthcare team has recommended. I also feel that the normal ol' folic acid our midwives/ob's/peri's are recommending is fine. That a handful of studies don't change the previous research and recommendations.

Of course it's always good to go with the most natural source for folate but that just isn't reasonable for many (most?) mamas.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

I'm not sure if I should laugh or pound my head against a wall.

Thanks, but I'll keep taking my prenatals.


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## corysmilk (Jan 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
I'm not sure if I should laugh or pound my head against a wall.

Thanks, but I'll keep taking my prenatals.









neither


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## corysmilk (Jan 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WaitingForKiddos* 
Corysmilk, I agree with you. When this thread was first posted months ago it was titled something like 'folic acid is bad' (not exactly that wording). I, being a mama who was then taking a BIG (2-4mg) of 'fake' folate daily to keep my baby healthy. I felt it was a harmful post for those of us who can't/don't eat natural folate in the big quantities that our healthcare team has recommended. I also feel that the normal ol' folic acid our midwives/ob's/peri's are recommending is fine. That a handful of studies don't change the previous research and recommendations.

Of course it's always good to go with the most natural source for folate but that just isn't reasonable for many (most?) mamas.

i am still taking mine too


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
I'm not sure if I should laugh or pound my head against a wall.

Thanks, but I'll keep taking my prenatals.









You can get a prenatal with folate if you want. Thorne makes them, sells them online and I hear at some HFSs (mine doesn't carry them though), it's not a crazy expensive brand, and there are lots of sales online.

eta: I think there's at least one more company that uses real folate, one of the companies that makes food-based supps, but I don't remember the name.


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## mama1803 (Mar 4, 2008)

I'm a bit surprised with all of the hostile responses here...personally, I've always been of the mindset that more information was always better than less. Even if I am skeptical of something posted here at the very least it allows me the opportunity to do my own research and come to my own conclusions, which IMO, is always preferable to being unaware.

One food I didn't see listed in the OP was pastured eggs. Polyface just posted nutritional info for their pastured eggs which are loaded with folate compared to their conventionally produced counterparts.

http://www.polyfaceyum.com//index.ph...index&cPath=67


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## mom61508 (May 10, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama1803* 
I'm a bit surprised with all of the hostile responses here...personally, I've always been of the mindset that more information was always better than less. Even if I am skeptical of something posted here at the very least it allows me the opportunity to do my own research and come to my own conclusions, which IMO, is always preferable to being unaware.









I was just going to post exactly what you said!


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## kl5 (Sep 21, 2007)

Dr. Hyman addressing this very issue.


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama1803* 
One food I didn't see listed in the OP was pastured eggs. Polyface just posted nutritional info for their pastured eggs which are loaded with folate compared to their conventionally produced counterparts.

http://www.polyfaceyum.com//index.ph...index&cPath=67

That's an awful lot of folate... I'm wondering if a decimal point was dropped somewhere. 10,200 mcg of folate per (probably 100 grams of egg?) is massive, I think far more than any other food I've seen. 102.00 would still be double the USDA standard egg.


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyalynn* 
That's an awful lot of folate... I'm wondering if a decimal point was dropped somewhere. 10,200 mcg of folate per (probably 100 grams of egg?) is massive, I think far more than any other food I've seen. 102.00 would still be double the USDA standard egg.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Real-...gs.aspx?page=4

Here's the article, but I don't see a lot of discussion of folate, except for this little bit at the end, I have a feeling there's data that just isn't quoted in this article (at least the online version).

Quote:

In 1974, the British Journal of Nutrition found that pastured eggs had 50 percent more folic acid and 70 percent more vitamin B12 than eggs from factory farm hens.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting* 
Mother to one bouncy five-year-old and a new little munchkin, who joined the outside world in March.









Congratulations!!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WaitingForKiddos* 
I also feel that the normal ol' folic acid our midwives/ob's/peri's are recommending is fine.

This is the problem with mainstream medicine when "normal" is seen as the synthetic version!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebirdmama1* 
Grass fed liver is $5 a package.

I believe it's chicken livers not beef livers which are high in folate? I've made a significant effort to make chicken liver pate regularly (Ina Garten's recipe is my fave, with pickles on it!)

Wow, turkey livers are really high!
http://www.westonaprice.org/food-fea...ver-files.html

I would be PSYCHED if pastured egg yolks are super high in folate, or even just regular high... DS eats at least 2 a day.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Sorry to serial again, I just gotta post this b/c it left me feeling upset.

What is driving this thread is mamas who have had children with significant health issues. We are just trying to find out "Why" and trying to help other mamas with our journey.

Our world and food supply has become significantly detached from what creates true health. For me, MDC has put me back in touch with my mother wisdom and the wisdom of the universe... not the dictates of corporations with agendas and mainstream doctors and their limited knowledge of nutrition and how it effects the human body.

There is a lot we don't understand about health and disease, but we are certainly trying our best. And fighting an uphill battle against conventional wisdom. The wisdom which is now resulting in a generation of children with the highest chronic diease rates in history.

I disagree with the fact that most kids are born healthy... the 4 A Disorders: autism, allergies, asthma and ADHD are absolutely skyrocketing! Autism rates of 1 in 100 children: 1 in 58 boys is just frightening! And obesity, cavities, diabetes... the list of never before seen rates of disease in the current generation goes on.

Please be gentle. It is meant with positive intention. And I believe this is the kind of "can't get anywhere else" knowledge that is truly one of the most special things about this board.


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## dannic (Jun 14, 2005)

I am pregnant and so I can understand things bringing on worry during pregnancy. I can also understand wanting to throw this info out there as I have two daughters who have things on the list (allergies, intolerances, tongue ties, ect).
I can also understand not having much money...we are living on very (VERY) little with no assistance (being self-employed, money comes in spurts and we've seen a lot of dry spells the past two yrs)...and yet...I can buy spinach and beans are super cheap...and so are garden seeds, so I can grow some greens and beets (altho we're getting too hot for those here).
We don't do gov't assistance (for personal beliefs) but I know wic offers farmers market "checks" now too. There are definately options.
Thorne prenatals are super inexpensive as far as prenatals go...


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## mom61508 (May 10, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Sorry to serial again, I just gotta post this b/c it left me feeling upset.

What is driving this thread is mamas who have had children with significant health issues. We are just trying to find out "Why" and trying to help other mamas with our journey.

Our world and food supply has become significantly detached from what creates true health. For me, MDC has put me back in touch with my mother wisdom and the wisdom of the universe... not the dictates of corporations with agendas and mainstream doctors and their limited knowledge of nutrition and how it effects the human body.

There is a lot we don't understand about health and disease, but we are certainly trying our best. And fighting an uphill battle against conventional wisdom. The wisdom which is now resulting in a generation of children with the highest chronic diease rates in history.

I disagree with the fact that most kids are born healthy... the 4 A Disorders: autism, allergies, asthma and ADHD are absolutely skyrocketing! Autism rates of 1 in 100 children: 1 in 58 boys is just frightening! And obesity, cavities, diabetes... the list of never before seen rates of disease in the current generation goes on.

Please be gentle. It is meant with positive intention. And I believe this is the kind of "can't get anywhere else" knowledge that is truly one of the most special things about this board.









Couldn't have said that better, totally agree!


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## mom61508 (May 10, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kl5* 
Dr. Hyman addressing this very issue.

Great link btw


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Calf's liver is high in folate. http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...spice&dbid=129

Yes, this is an informative and comprehensive article from Dr. Mark Hyman, MD, about Folic Acid: Killer or Cure-All?.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mar..._b_601126.html

Pat


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Hmmm, not sure if our beef liver is from baby calves... would that be termed "veal liver"?


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

I'm a mama with a 4 year old with 20 plus allergies and a 7 year old with 6, plus potential asthma, adhd, and anxiety. I'm 21 weeks pregnant. For me, using Thorne products, which contain the appropriate kind of folate, is a small investment. I don't think folate is the entire piece to our health puzzle, but strongly believe that it is a significant piece. If by doing this, and a handful of other things, helps reduce my sweet baby's allergic response, thus reduce my stress and financial burden in the future, I will spend the extra $5 that these vites might cost.
I also eat chicken liver and lentils and greens.

I wish I could say that I've been totally perfect this pregnancy. I certainly haven't and that kind of weighs on me because the stress of having a high anxiety, asthmatic, allergic, messed up tooth kid is strong and much greater than the stress of cooking lentils and liver.

I also see this board as a take the info that is good for you, throw out the rest, or maybe keep it in the back of your head type of place until you are ready for it. The tone of the first poster was to shock. She wanted people to realize how important an issue it is for her. Maybe that turned some people off, but maybe it helped others pay more attention.

So many of us have been told by our GI's, allergists, pedi's that nothing can be done, that our kids will just continue to suffer, that eczema or green poop or asthma is normal, or to keep up the good work of severe restrictions - but no _solutions_. The best GIs and allergists in Boston literally threw up their hands in response to me saying that they needed to help. Now for me, _that_ was terrifying. I realized I was on my own with my "allergy mamas". Some of us responding positively on this thread have done intense research for the past couple of years, on our own, to discover that things can be done - both preventively and while our children grow. We are just trying to share just one piece of our health puzzle.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

That is the reason I like threads like this. There is so much info out there to get from all sources. I don't think it is there for scar tactics.

I have very "healthy" children. Three of which that were recently diagnosed with severe allergies (two of those were nearly off the charts with their results), one child that was intollerant to a huge amount of common foods (grapes, melons, chicken, turkey, milks, etc), one child that does not eat hardly anything leading me to believe there are food allergies there, two that would easily be labled ADD or ADHD if I allowed a dx, two that have exema type issues(sp?), three that have skin sinsitivity/allergy to mayo and clorine, as well as five boys and one girl that were all tongue tied at birth (and three of the boys had that little "dimple" thing that was mentioned).

And I have always considered my children very healthy. I have just learned their quirks and work around them.

The idea that a lot of their "quirks" can be traced back to the same cause is quite intrigueing. And gives hope that I may be able to help them have better lives in the future.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Now for the important question...

Does all liver taste like liver?









Because I can't stand the smell, much less the taste of liver. Even some meats that are cooked in certain ways have that taste and I can't stomach it.

So, does all liver taste like liver? And if not, what kind is different? And if it is in the prep, please tell me about it.

Thanks!


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Correlation does not equal causation. There is no validated molecular evidence that this is so.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
*Whitrow MJ et al., Effect of Supplemental Folic Acid in Pregnancy on Childhood Asthma: A Prospective Birth Cohort Study.Am J Epidemiol. 2009 Oct 30.*
Folic acid supplementation during late pregnancy is associated with an increased risk of childhood asthma, increased risk of persistent asthma, and poorer respiratory function in young children.

A study at the University of Adelaide concluded that the intake of folic acid supplements during late pregnancy increases the risk of babies developing childhood asthma by 30%, although researchers emphasized that their finding did not contradict recommendations to supplement folic acid in first trimester, when no additional risk was found.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19880541

Pat


This is a cohort study. It shows a correlation. It is one study that shows a positive correlation. Every time I take my garbage out early it rains. The last 10 times I have put my garbage out early, it has rained. So, can I conclude that me taking my garbage out early causes it to rain? If we can conclude from this particular study that folic acid supplementation causes asthma in children, then in the same way, I can conclude that me taking my garbage out early causes it to rain.

This is a piece of a puzzle. It's not the whole solution.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Although that is true (correlation does not equal causation), doesn't the study specify "folic acid" not "folate"? Or are they interchangeable in such studies? (Not that it is important, but just though I would point that out in regards to your post.)

I have many instances where I wonder correlation or causation.

Like my ninth pgcy. I developed pre-E/HELLPs. I was addmitted to the hospital. I was induced with pit. I had directed, forced pushing. Etc. And I was VERY skaky and weak and "slow" for days afterward. I had that "everything is loose" inside feeling that everyone talks about after having a baby.

It all seems "normal", right? Well, it was the only pgcy that I had in the hospital (all others were HB). It was the only time I have had pit or directed pushing, etc. And it was the only time I ever felt shaky, weak, slow, and had that "everything is loose" feeling.

So, I am left with the cause vs correlation of pit/pre-E/hospital birth.

The reason I like to know what people think and to know, even in correlation, is that I can make educated guesses regarding my (and my children's) lives. I can hear what others say and experience, I can watch for similair cause/correlations and can take actions to change things.

I have read TONS of stuff on high b/p regarding "causes" and such. I have worked within those ideas to change my life around them to find answers to my own problems. I have found, that at least for me, many of the "causes" were more "correlations" rather than actual causes. Because they did not alter my b/p at all when I implemented all the necessary changes. But, even knowing that, I have learned a LOT from those correlations. And I have made my life more healthy because of it.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

So I guess the issue of folic acid no longer applies to pregnancy?


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## mama1803 (Mar 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mammo2Sammo* 

I also see this board as a take the info that is good for you, throw out the rest, or maybe keep it in the back of your head type of place until you are ready for it. The tone of the first poster was to shock. She wanted people to realize how important an issue it is for her. Maybe that turned some people off, but maybe it helped others pay more attention.

So many of us have been told by our GI's, allergists, pedi's that nothing can be done, that our kids will just continue to suffer, that eczema or green poop or asthma is normal, or to keep up the good work of severe restrictions - but no _solutions_. The best GIs and allergists in Boston literally threw up their hands in response to me saying that they needed to help. Now for me, _that_ was terrifying. I realized I was on my own with my "allergy mamas". Some of us responding positively on this thread have done intense research for the past couple of years, on our own, to discover that things can be done - both preventively and while our children grow. We are just trying to share just one piece of our health puzzle.









Very well said!


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
Now for the important question...

Does all liver taste like liver?









Because I can't stand the smell, much less the taste of liver. Even some meats that are cooked in certain ways have that taste and I can't stomach it.

So, does all liver taste like liver? And if not, what kind is different? And if it is in the prep, please tell me about it.

Thanks!

I hear chicken liver is much milder than beef, and it's got more folate. Search for chicken liver pate recipes, there have been lots around--I haven't tried it yet, but peoples' kids are enjoying it. I am swallowing little chunks of frozen beef liver, it's a lot milder than I expected--it may be calf liver, when I bought it it was listed as beef liver, but the wrapping says beef calf liver. Calf liver is milder than older cattle. Lots of threads in Traditional Foods about hiding liver, or other ways of consuming it.

On a sorta related note, I've found that I don't need to supplement as much when I use cell salts, there's a long thread here in H&H. (I have a few years of ongoing health stuff now and have popped more pills than any five people should need to







).


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## Koalamom (Dec 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
Now for the important question...

Does all liver taste like liver?









Because I can't stand the smell, much less the taste of liver. Even some meats that are cooked in certain ways have that taste and I can't stomach it.

So, does all liver taste like liver? And if not, what kind is different? And if it is in the prep, please tell me about it.

Thanks!

Not sure about the folate in lamb, but lamb liver is waaay better than beef liver.


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## aldensmom09 (Mar 24, 2010)

wow, i'm so glad i found this thread.

my mom's first baby was stillborn at 36 weeks. her second baby was born healthy. her third baby died of spina bifida 3 hours after her birth at 37 weeks. i am the youngest, and healthy.

. i started taking folica acid (as well as prenatal supplements) about 6 months before conception.

i've had 2 missed miscarriages. the first babe i lost at 6 weeks, but needed to take cytotec to complete it at 9 weeks because it hadn't passed. my second pregnancy seemed to be going well until an u/s at 12 weeks showed that babe had stopped growing at 6 weeks, though everything else had continued. with that miscarriage i again needed cytotec, which didn't work, and eventually needed a d&c and a week of IV antibiotics for a huge infection. after my d&c, my uterine lining was still abnormally thick, and my OB said that it had been the toughest d&c she'd ever performed- they though they'd have to do a repeat but didn't.

my third pregnancy was relatively healthy. although i had some cramping and bleeding at 6 weeks (and was sure i was m/c-ing again), things were great until 34 weeks, when i suddenly developed very high blood pressure. by 35 weeks i was having some crazy liver enzymes going on, though still not spilling protein in my urine. i had a partial placental abruption (lots of bleeding) at 35 weeks, was admitted, it was looking like HELLP (and also pre-E, except that there was still no protein in my urine). my blood pressure is normally 105/55, it was 160/95. insane. i ended up being induced (3 days of prostaglandin gel, followed by AROM and pit), and had a baby boy, who was in great shape (just a bit of jaundice) for being early.

my boy is a fairly healthy kid, but i have had to eliminate all dairy from my diet since he was about 2 weeks old- i believe he is intolerant/allergic to casein, he also has eczema and doctors suspect asthma.

i've recently stumbled upon some weston price stuff, have recently read "healing the new childhood epidemics" and just started reading "nourishing traditions" and am amazed by what i never knew. since reading more on this, pieces of my puzzle are coming together so clearly now. so many things related to MTHFR and excess folica acid/ deficiencies in folinic acid... my family history of stillbirth, miscarriage (my sister has also miscarried), spina bifida, placental issues including abruption, pre-E, HELLP, periodontal disease (my mom and sis and i have all had gum grafts)... it is coming together. the whole methylation process. unreal.

i'm really glad to have this forum... it is helping me learn and put together some pieces of my puzzle. a great place for eye-opening. thanks so much to all the mamas and to pat for this thread.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Yes, unfortunately, your experience is repeating itself and most docs are unaware of MTHFR gene polymorpthisms and concerns with folic acid supplementation. Reproductive endocrinologists and preventative cardiologists are the only one's I've found who are informed about this prevalent issue which can be helped by supporting the methylation pathway with whole food folate, magnesium, zinc, sulfate, molybdenum, methyl B-12.

I started learning due to our son's food allergies and then the puzzle piece of my husband's hyper-homocysteine and then my mom's pancreatic cancer and it all started to make sense.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Bumping.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)




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## Shawnamarie (Mar 20, 2005)

Wow, is this thread still going? I have been so confused by this issue since the way of eating that I espouse contradicts what my doctors (naturopaths) say. My husband and I have been trying to get pregnant for about 5 months now and I've been taking the Thorne brand of Folate every day since then. I also cook and eat liver 1-2x/month.

However, I just found out that I am pregnant and my ND insists that I take folic acid. I was under the impression from the paleo and traditional foods communities that taking folate was more beneficial than folic acid, but my doctor is scaring me now. I should be good to just continue taking my folate supplement (5-MTHF) throughout my pregnancy, right? What website/book/resource can I direct my ND to in order to help her understand?

Thanks!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Tell your ND to read here: http://mthfr.net/

I would take FOLATE, EAT FOLATE. I would NOT take synthetic folic acid supplements.

More info: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK6561/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/4524
http://atlasgeneticsoncology.org/Genes/MTHFRID41448ch1p36.html

There is a bunch of additional research upthread, first page, iirc.

Pat


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## Shawnamarie (Mar 20, 2005)

Many thanks!


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## lizzylou (Jul 11, 2006)

Just finished reading this thread! Thinking about TTC #3 and about to get tested for MTHFR. My son is healthy, no allergies, no behavioral diagnoses (thank God we did not vax!!) He does have a few midline issues... tiny butt dimple and lip tie for instance. My daughter however has a handful of very serious midline issues (heart, spine, etc.). She also has a genetic disorder.

ANYWAY my question is - do you knowledgeable MTHFR people recommend a prenatal vitamin or do you think it's better just to take liver? I follow a WAPF style diet (I do now - did not before. WAP/GAPS has given my daughter quality of life she wouldn't have otherwise had). If you think a vitamin is a good idea, is there one specifically that you think is the best?


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## Chris Duffy LM (Jul 31, 2012)

Thank you, Pat, for posting. I do not trust any artificial supplements. Of course, they will be adequate for most people. But why take a chance when natural folate is readily available in food. I follow Dr. Fuhrman's Eat to Live/Eat for Health/Nutritarian dietstyle. I am not strict, presently. But whenever I am, I feel like 20 not 56.

I also am a midwife. I have all my clients read his books. Since having everyone read his books, I have had no cases of pre-ecclampsia, the most concerning of pregnancy complications. When ever a symptom arises that might risk the client out, I have them re-examine the books and we always get the symptom under control if they are willing to change their diet.

~Chris Duffy, midwife


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## Chris Duffy LM (Jul 31, 2012)

Hi, LizzyLou!

I recommend a general concentrated food supplement called GreenLife. It is a raw whole food supplement made of organically grown barley, rye and oats by V E Irons. I include it and their Vitamin C, made from Acerola Cherries and Spanish Orange, in my midwifery care.

Feel free to call if you want more info, Or visit the greenlife page on my site: http://myhealthfreedom.com/index.php?id=221

Regards,

Chris Duffy, midwife


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I am a whole foods gal. Where to start? Help 101

Pat


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## Vesperescence (Feb 11, 2014)

I just wanted to throw out there that MTHFR is a REAL concern and the form of folate is extremely important... how would I know that?

After 4 miscarriages in a row following 3 healthy deliveries - I was sent for testing to determine why. This included a wide variety of tests from physical formation, to hormonal panels, to a thrombophilia panel for clotting issues. The only thing that came back as abnormal in all of this was that I was diagnosed with a compound heterozygous MTHFR polymorphism. I blinked. What on earth was this? My doctor explained it can cause some clotting and miscarriages and wanted me to take Folgard (prescription high doses of folic acid). Stunned, and confused... I didn't know what questions to ask and I did as I was told - and went on to miscarry yet again.

Then I began to do my own research. I discovered that a lot of this information is new and developing.. and that while the mainstream treatment is high high doses of folic acid and it amazingly works for some people - it doesn't work at all for others. It would appear I was in the non working category. This genetic mutation of mine had lain dormant for a while, but once triggered - it had wreaked havoc on my life. All one has to do is read about bio chemistry and what role folate place in the body's metabolic processes to know how important a nutrient this is. I had been battling with extreme fatigue that no one could figure out the cause of for years. I had neurological issues that even a neurologist and an MRI couldn't figure out. I had depression that was untouchable and untreatable by typical medication. I had memory loss.. for a woman in her mid 30's I should not have been missing chunks of my life as in whole people were erased, and whole years of my life were gone... unrecallable. And there were no answers - UNTIL I learned about MTHFR. All of this and so much more can be related to MTHFR.

That's when I discovered that folic acid in the body can lead to higher levels of homocysteine that cannot be fully absorbed because the process of conversion doesn't fully work in someone like me.. and you can develop blood clots... AH HA.. this is why it's on the clotting panel! I knew I had lost two pregnancies to clots, and the others were likely neural tube issues from lack of folate... yes you heard me.. LACK OF FOLATE despite being on HIGH doses of folic acid. If your body cannot convert it efficiently - you cannot get the benefit, and it's worse than if you had none at all. Because this polymorphism is genetic and inherited in a large number of people, but not always triggered - it's hard to say exactly how many carry versus deal with the actual repercussions of a triggered MTHFR - but you cannot hurt your body by eating more natural folate... and you CAN potentially hurt your body (and the baby) by taking folic acid... potentially.

I began taking Methylfolate - the converted form of the nutrient, therefore effectively skipping the broken conversion process - and guess what? My fatigue went away! My depression went away! I felt GREAT! My memory improved. I never got those memories back... but I was no longer losing them or feeling so scatter brained. And then miracle of all miracles - I conceived. Only this time, my 10th pregnancy... 4th child... I didn't miscarry. In fact I have a perfectly healthy child only weeks from birth right now. I've religiously taken methylfolate every single day of this pregnancy. After 5 consecutive miscarriages via clots from homocysteine due to MTHFR and lack of folate causing NTD's that a child could not survive through - here I am with my health drastically improved, and a healthy baby about to be born.

That's a pretty good evident reason for me to believe the research on this. It may be new.. but don't be fooled - it's real. The Methylation cycle is a very well known part of our body's functions, and it HAS to function in order for us to have a decent life. I've been given a whole new lease on life, and all it took was a paradigm shift to eating more whole foods with folate, and supplementing with Methylfolate and NOT folic acid. I don't take a prenatal vitamin.. for the first time ever... and I feel better than I've ever felt!


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

how much folate should you take during pregnancy or while TTC? do you need more with the MTHFR gene mutation? I don't know if I have it, but I want to cover my bases. I use Thorne prenatal vitamins, which have the correct form of folate, but only 266 micrograms/pill. I have been taking 2/day even though 3 is the recommended amount. I thought that 400 - 500 micrograms was the recommended dose. I also eat a fairly decent diet of mostly whole foods. Despite these factors, I miscarried my last pregnancy. It was my 3rd miscarriage, but I had made changes to my diet and supplements after the 2nd miscarriage. Now I am wondering if I am not taking enough folate.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

"A recent study by the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health linked excessively high levels of folic acid in pregnant women to an increase in children being born with autism.

Researchers found that women who had four times the "adequate" amount of folic acid had double the risk of their babies developing autism spectrum disorder. "

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/folic-acid-high-dose-pregnancy-autism-1.3728065

Pat


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