# My grandson is getting cired tomorrow =(



## JessicaTX (Jul 9, 2006)

and there is nothing I can do about it=( I've tried talking to her, and she appeared to listen, but now I'm not allowed to go near her or the baby if I'm going to mention circumsizing, he's supposed to come home from the NICU on tuesday, and will be circed tomorrow night...well I guess that's tonight..i'm up late agonizing over his perfect little body being put through that after the trauma he's already endured. *cry*

Someone please wave their magic wand and make her listen to reason.


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## proudmomof4 (Aug 29, 2006)

I am very sorry you have to go through this. Who is "she", DD or DIL?
From what you are saying, you have done what you could - you have offered information. As much as probably most of us here would like that: circumcision is not illegal in the U. S., so the parents are "not doing anything wrong" (I know...). I guess you will just have to let it go for this child and keep offering information. Your words might fall on fertile soil next time.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

I'm sorry.


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

I'm so sorry. Please don't beat yourself up over it. You offered information and that is all you could do. Maybe the parents might have a last minute change of heart.
Congratulations on your new grandson. While I'm sad to hear he'll probably get circumcised, I'm glad to know he's healthy enough to leave the NICU.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I'm so sorry. That is one of my worst fears, that one of my children would circ his/her own child. I went through a similar situation with my nephew born early (35 weeks, 5 pounds) and it is agonizing not being able to get through to them and knowing what the poor baby will suffer.

I'm so so so sorry.


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## tutucrazy (Dec 30, 2008)

naking...







im so sorry. this boy has such a good grandma for trying to protect him. i feel terrible for you and him. poor thing has already had such a rough start and now unnecessary genital surgery. :_( (((big hugs)))


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

That is a huge fear of mine when my kids have kids. I dont know how I would deal with it if either allowed a child of theirs to have that done to them


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I am so so sorry. I can imagine how heart broken (and frankly pissed) I would be in the same situation. It really is a worst nightmare scenario for many of us I'm sure


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

If it's the child of your oldest son and it's the grandson's mom not wanting to discuss it, maybe you can talk to your son about it. Maybe a last minute plea to him to watch a circ video and research complications might work. If they really want to circ, it can still be done in one week, one month, etc. It doesn't have to be done/decided right now.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

:


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JessicaTX* 
and there is nothing I can do about it=( I've tried talking to her, and she appeared to listen, but now I'm not allowed to go near her or the baby if I'm going to mention circumsizing, he's supposed to come home from the NICU on tuesday, and will be circed tomorrow night...well I guess that's tonight..i'm up late agonizing over his perfect little body being put through that after the trauma he's already endured. *cry*

Someone please wave their magic wand and make her listen to reason.

I dont know if you have the money. But you could tell them if you dont circumcise him you will pay for part of his college education. Or maybe provide something else you know they could not resist refusing?


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *proudmomof4* 
circumcision is not illegal in the U.S

Actually it is...it has been for 12 years. The law is just not being enforced.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
Actually it is...it has been for 12 years. The law is just not being enforced.

This is the first I've heard of this... can you show us where this is written down?


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

The FGM bill was passed 12 years ago making it illegal to do anything to a girls genitals...that includes all 3 forms of FGM (including just the removal of the foreskin or even using a needle to draw a ritual drop of blood)

The US constitution guarantees equal protection under the law...therefore, it is already illegal to remove a foreskin from a boy since he has that equal protection provided by the FGM laws.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I don't think that is the same at all as having a MGM law on the books.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

That will be decided when the first boy cut up after the law went into effect takes it to court in just a few more years.

But it is constitutionally illegal. The law is the law. Just because boys are not specifically mentioned doesn't change that facts.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
That will be decided when the first boy cut up after the law went into effect takes it to court in just a few more years.

But it is constitutionally illegal. The law is the law. Just because boys are not specifically mentioned doesn't change that facts.

No, I think that's wishful thinking.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
No, I think that's wishful thinking.


Can you explain how the constitution is null in this one situation?


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
Can you explain how the constitution is null in this one situation?

I just went and did a bunch of googling on this topic and not one article seems to support your claim.

What I did see was folks trying to get the whole FGM bill thrown out... saying that it is unconstitutional to protect one gender and not the other. The FGM bill though, has not been amended to include boys. Therefore, routine male infant circumcision is still legal. Distasteful and harmful yes. Illegal, no.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Like I said...just because it's not being enforced, does not make equal protection void.

Should it be a gender neutral law just to clear things up? Absolutely!
Is it unconstitutional to just protect girls? Absolutely!

If it's unconstitutional to just protects girls...then it's unconstitutional to NOT protect boys under that same law.

In my classes unconstitutional = illegal

Therefore...either boys are protected or girls shouldn't be.


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## K703 (Dec 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
I dont know if you have the money. But you could tell them if you dont circumcise him you will pay for part of his college education. Or maybe provide something else you know they could not resist refusing?

I like that idea! Another idea is to tell them that you'll write them out of your will if they circumcise (or write the will so the inheritance would skip them and go straight to their children).


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## K703 (Dec 15, 2008)

I think the debate on whether the FGM bill under the Constitution would also protect boys or not upon being declared unconstitutional depends on which of these two events would happen: Would the bill then automatically be extended to males, or would it become null and void and make FGM legal again (along with MGM)?


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## mrsfrenchy (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *K703* 
I like that idea! Another idea is to tell them that you'll write them out of your will if they circumcise (or write the will so the inheritance would skip them and go straight to their children).

I would think that the OP should not take such divisive measures. Yes, it's a horrible thing they're doing to their DS, but saying "i'm writing you out of my will" could really create division, and then she might not be able to love on her grandson...intact or not.

I like the college funding idea though.


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## MaryJaneLouise (Jul 26, 2005)

OP, do you care to share the details of your daughter/DIL's reason to cut?


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## anony (Jun 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryJaneLouise* 
OP, do you care to share the details of your daughter/DIL's reason to cut?

I think it's her DIL because it's her teenage son's baby (just a guess). If he himself is circ'd then I suppose the OP must feel awful and heartbroken about it happening again and if he isn't then it's maybe more upsetting. That's my guess. But anyway, it really is tough when you provide the info and someone still chooses to ignore it.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm*
The FGM bill was passed 12 years ago making it illegal to do anything to a girls genitals...that includes all 3 forms of FGM (including just the removal of the foreskin or even using a needle to draw a ritual drop of blood)

The US constitution guarantees equal protection under the law...therefore, it is already illegal to remove a foreskin from a boy since he has that equal protection provided by the FGM laws.

Unfortunately this is not the way the law (meaning constitutional law) works.

IF a proper plaintiff could be found to challenge the FGM bill on constitutional grounds (which would be quite difficult to show standing IMO), then all that would happen would be that the law would be declared unconstitutional, and thus null and void.

There is not a prosecutor in the country who could win a case prosecuting a male circumcision on the grounds of the FGM bill.

We are a country of limited laws and enumerated rights. If the laws do not forbid it, then you are free to do it.

and eta: in case it matters, i actually am an attorney.


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## Starwind (May 16, 2009)

I am a 23 year old male who was circ'd as an infant, and I wish I had a choice.

In my opinion, when he is old enough, you should tell your grandson of this very event. I mean this, not as a way to get back at the child's parent, but as full disclosure. The child may or may not like what was done, but he should know that if he does have doubts, he will be supported. Too many who do feel bad about what happened to them have no one to turn to. They simply internalize those feelings because society says that they should not question it because it is such a 'sacred cow'.

Whatever you do, support your grandson. Everything is for his sake, so any punitive action is likely only going to hurt him in a round about way. I truly do feel bad your situation. In the end, the one who will have to come to terms with the full impact of this situation will be your grandson. Be there for him.


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## JessicaTX (Jul 9, 2006)

This grandson is the product of a relationship between my 14 year old son and his 15 year old girlfriend. My son did not want his son circumsized, but girlfriend's mother did. She has more sway over baby decisions than I do. Up till she went into labor, she was not going to have it done, but her mom told her she needed to. so she did. It's already done, my poor little grandbaby has gauze wrapped around his open wound and is refusing the breast. All I can do is love the baby and support my son, I can't throw a fit and risk whatever relationship we are going to be able to have with him.


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## Starwind (May 16, 2009)

At least you did whatever you could. I do really wish no one would have to go through such an ordeal as you and your grandson have.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I'm so sorry. I hope the baby can get back to the breast.


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## zak (Mar 6, 2005)

I'm so sorry, Mama.


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## Belle (Feb 6, 2005)

Quote:

quote removed by admin
But its not her daughter, its her son's child and he does not want his child circumcised. The mother of the baby and the maternal grandmother are the ones pushing the circ.

I agree though, my daughters are already being educated about circ. Their children will be intact. My oldest dd watched a circ video with me when I was pg with Dd2. (We didn't know her gender) I told her that some boys have that done to them when they are born. She was in tears and told me she didn't want that done to her brother. She also was really empathetic to my dh when she found out it was done to him as a baby.


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## robertandenith (Apr 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JessicaTX* 
This grandson is the product of a relationship between my 14 year old son and his 15 year old girlfriend. My son did not want his son circumsized, but girlfriend's mother did. She has more sway over baby decisions than I do. Up till she went into labor, she was not going to have it done, but her mom told her she needed to. so she did. It's already done, my poor little grandbaby has gauze wrapped around his open wound and is refusing the breast. All I can do is love the baby and support my son, I can't throw a fit and risk whatever relationship we are going to be able to have with him.


omg


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I'm so sorry.







Poor precious baby, damn it just breaks your heart.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Hi, everyone









I am really sorry to intrude on this very heartbreaking thread. I needed to announce that I have removed posts that were either advocating physical punishment, ageist or were discussing other discussion boards, all of which are against our User Agreement. Please be cautious when posting because further UAVs will result in the thread's removal. Thank you so much for your cooperation and understanding. Please PM me with any questions or concerns rather than discussing on the thread. Thanks


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

((((hugs)))

Make sure your son gets DNA proof that is his kid.

This mama is looking to her mom for help and guidance. That is normal. Your son is looking to you. You and your son can educate his son. Make sure you and your son get legal rights to this child. In this situation you can only guide and help your son be a dad. Unfortantly the system doesn't support him being a dad so he is going to have to fight harder for basic rights.

Don't think less of this mom -- do of maternal grandma and the medical staff.


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## grendal82002 (Sep 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JessicaTX* 
This grandson is the product of a relationship between my 14 year old son and his 15 year old girlfriend. My son did not want his son circumsized, but girlfriend's mother did. She has more sway over baby decisions than I do. Up till she went into labor, she was not going to have it done, but her mom told her she needed to. so she did. It's already done, my poor little grandbaby has gauze wrapped around his open wound and is refusing the breast. All I can do is love the baby and support my son, I can't throw a fit and risk whatever relationship we are going to be able to have with him.

I know it's too late but you could of played the my sons arnt circumcised card.
I'm sorry. All you can do is just love your grandson. And I guess all that aside congrats on your new grandchild. You can teach him about circ when he is older so your great grandkids won't be Circd.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JessicaTX* 
This grandson is the product of a relationship between my 14 year old son and his 15 year old girlfriend. My son did not want his son circumsized, but girlfriend's mother did. She has more sway over baby decisions than I do. Up till she went into labor, she was not going to have it done, but her mom told her she needed to. so she did. It's already done, my poor little grandbaby has gauze wrapped around his open wound and is refusing the breast. All I can do is love the baby and support my son, I can't throw a fit and risk whatever relationship we are going to be able to have with him.

What parental rights do 14 year old parents have? And are they all moved to the legal adults?

If you had made a legal case out of this (which I am sorry to say I really wish you had) what party would get the final decision?

I cant imagine the final decision is held by the 14 year old mother. If that is true then things are really screwed up in a way that makes me sick. Because one one hand parents could legally force their 14 year old son to be circumcised, because he is not an adult and they know "whats best". Yet on the other hand a female peer of the same age (your DIL in this case) some how knows whats best for her baby boy and can get him circumcised.

Is this how it works?


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
What parental rights do 14 year old parents have? And are they all moved to the legal adults?

I'm pretty sure in all US states a minor is emancipated if they give birth and the parent, even if a minor, is the one who makes legal decisions for the newborn. I could be wrong but that's how it appears to be in my state.


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## pammysue (Jan 24, 2004)

I'm so sorry.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
If you had made a legal case out of this (which I am sorry to say I really wish you had) what party would get the final decision?

I cant imagine the final decision is held by the 14 year old mother. If that is true then things are really screwed up in a way that makes me sick.

Well, then who _should_ make the final decision? The courts, maternal grandparents, paternal grandparents?

*Of course* it's a mother's final decision regardless of her age.

Also, the OP stated it is important to her to have a good relationship with her DGS's mother and grandparents. I can't see how taking them to court would help that. And on what grounds?


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pammysue* 
I'm so sorry.









Well, then who _should_ make the final decision? The courts, maternal grandparents, paternal grandparents?

*Of course* it's a mother's final decision regardless of her age.


The reason I said it was screwed up was not because young mothers have parental rights. What I meant is that we have a system that says its legally and morally O.K. to circ male minors because their parents knows whats best. Yet not only is a 14 year old girl old enough to make decisions about her own body, she is also old enough to decide if her son should be circumcised, while her 14 year old boyfriend is not legally seen responsible enough to make the same kind of decisions about his own body! Thats whats screwed up.
It makes me feel sick because if we have such basic legal prejudice built up against boys then it just shows how much more of a legal mess that is in store to build up more rights for boys.
(not to mention fathers should have equal parental rights as mothers, so it should be "of course Mom". It should be BOTH.)

Quote:

Also, the OP stated it is important to her to have a good relationship with her DGS's mother and grandparents. I can't see how taking them to court would help that. And on what grounds?
At this point there is no reason to go to court, but as long as the boy was still intact there certainly was. Going to court at that point she would be fighting to not only protect the rights of her newborn grandson, but ALSO for the wishes of her son as a father, and new parent. If that caused her DIL and her mother to be upset, well then thats their fault for stomping on the wishes of the males in the OP's family.

But I agree at this point, its best to try to heal as many emotional wounds as possible, especially considering the physical ones never can be.


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## anony (Jun 19, 2005)

This experience will hopefully result in positives. If your son does have kids down the road as an adult, he will be able to make sure his wife or significant other understands circ'ing is not an option. If his current girlfriend and him stay together, it will be a real deal breaker though. In this case, it seemed out of his hands. But that will also result in facing hard answers if his first son, depending on how close the relationship is, wonders why some brother(s) or cousin(s) were left intact and he will learn his mother's side of the family pressured into having him done.

I can only imagine how hard that would be to deal with if it occurred to me, but it's just another reminder of how myths continue to perpetuate. If one is deadset against circumcising their child, no matter how old they are, and they have the decision made out of their hands it's a pretty horrible thing and I imagine heartbreaking. But it sounds like the OP is taking it hard too, which is understandable when you know the facts and see it happen anyway.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Fyrestorm is right...........there is an "equal protection" clause in the Constitution. But we just need someone to take it to the Supreme Court, and for the S.C. to see it the same way.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Please let's try and keep the thread focused on supporting the OP. The topic of equal protection and Supreme Court issues would best go in Activism.

Thanks


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## jlovesl (Dec 19, 2008)

Well nothing can be done about the circ. now. But the thing I'm concerned about is why on earth is a 14 year old having sex and babies????? Why was this child not taught about safe sex or for his age no sex at all???????Maybe a sex ed course before all this would have prevented this whole discussion?


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## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlovesl* 
Well nothing can be done about the circ. now. But the thing I'm concerned about is why on earth is a 14 year old having sex and babies????? Why was this child not taught about safe sex or for his age no sex at all???????Maybe a sex ed course before all this would have prevented this whole discussion?

Sorry to call you out, but this is not helpful. I've known the OP for years, and she is an amazing, dedicated mama who has always done the very best she can for her son and all her children.

I don't even have a teenager of my own, but I am not so naive to assume that a sex ed course or even teaching about safe sex/abstinence is the key in deterring teens from sex.

Jessica, I'm so, so sorry.







I wish I could be there for you guys right now


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## JessicaTX (Jul 9, 2006)

Well, you know what happens when you assume =)

He actually had sex ed classes, and we'd talked many times about sex, and the importance of waiting for the right person. I told him that sex creates an intense emotional bond, and you want that bond to be with someone with simliar values to your own, and at the very least a prospective future wife. We covered all the bases with diseases that he could get and pregnancies that could happen, but he's got an overload of hormones that he doesn't know how to control. At my house there were rules in place to avoid situations where sex would even be possible, at her house..the rules were different, and he let me think otherwise.

I'm sure this isn't the first incident we're going to disagree with over the raising of my grandson, and i'm not quite sure how to go about making sure my son has a voice in it. He's very much wanting to be a good father, and I don't want to mess up the relationship between our two families and jeopardize that. The mom here is a very typical 15 year old girl. I'm pretty sure she'll withhold any baby visitation for any perceived hurts, real or imagined. So how does one go about establishing paternity and visitation rights without trampling on the mother's feelings? The issue started out as circumcision one, but it's quickly spreading to a myriad of other parenting choices.


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## proudmomof4 (Aug 29, 2006)

From what you are describing it sounds like you've done a lot to raise a responsible young man - but people in general and maybe teenagers especially make mistakes and wrong choices.
The whole situation must be a lot to handle. Is there any place you could get professional help and support, maybe "Planned Parenthood"? (I am not American, so I don't really know how the system works.)


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JessicaTX* 
Well, you know what happens when you assume =)

He actually had sex ed classes, and we'd talked many times about sex, and the importance of waiting for the right person. I told him that sex creates an intense emotional bond, and you want that bond to be with someone with simliar values to your own, and at the very least a prospective future wife. We covered all the bases with diseases that he could get and pregnancies that could happen, but he's got an overload of hormones that he doesn't know how to control. At my house there were rules in place to avoid situations where sex would even be possible, at her house..the rules were different, and he let me think otherwise.

I'm sure this isn't the first incident we're going to disagree with over the raising of my grandson, and i'm not quite sure how to go about making sure my son has a voice in it. He's very much wanting to be a good father, and I don't want to mess up the relationship between our two families and jeopardize that. The mom here is a very typical 15 year old girl. I'm pretty sure she'll withhold any baby visitation for any perceived hurts, real or imagined. So how does one go about establishing paternity and visitation rights without trampling on the mother's feelings? The issue started out as circumcision one, but it's quickly spreading to a myriad of other parenting choices.

To establish paternity, he would need to go to court. The court may order a DNA test if she denies he's the father. Is he on the birth certificate or not? If he is, then he would need to go to court to establish visitation and custody. If not, then the court has to declare him the legal father, and there, they will assign him custody and visitation rights. This is something better done sooner than later, because the last thing you need is her saying, "Well he never cared before...he never visited..." etc.

I'm really sorry you're going through this and your grandson had to suffer over someone's ignorance. I really recommend you retain a good family lawyer so he can have rights to the child. He should have been able to refuse the circ in the hospital, but that's water under the bridge now unfortunately.


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## jlovesl (Dec 19, 2008)

Well I'm sure the responsibilities of a baby will help with the question of maybe a condom next time.I would even purchase them for him if I had to. Kids will do it regardless of what a parent says(this I understand). But if he's supplied with the means maybe he will use them next time. It's too bad it has happened. As for her and her mother with holding rights to your son, can easily be fix by a lawyer. If he is providing for that baby then she has no legs to stand on when it comes to visitation. But I would speak to a lawyer soon to set up visitation days right away. It may be harder to get the days he wants if shes breast feeding but that needs to end sometime.I think there is a case where a woman was breastfeeding her 5 year old out of spite to keep the father from weekend visits. Judge ruled her to have to pump so Dad could have time with his child.

I would really hate to see it be you to raise this baby when he is with your son. Your job gets to be the spoiling Grandma and your son needs to learn how to raise a child. He made the mistake, now he has to learn how to deal with the day to day hardships of being a parent. Not saying it's all bad but every parent has one of those days. And I'm not saying you can never help him out(everyone needs advice from time to time) but make sure he does majority. The last thing you want him to think is every time he has a accident Mommy will look after it for me.

I think both him and her will have to figure out their other parenting choices. Maybe get a little help along the way. IMO, you need to step back on how they raise the baby. Unless it is something that may harm the baby. This is their child not yours.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I agree take her to court now. She will get over it. It also protects your son 4 - 18 years from now if she decideds she wants child support. He won't have to pay back child support. Also if she gets social services and puts his name down a few years down the road it can be very financially consumming for him/you.

If he is on the birth certificate it will be a lot easier-- but honestly I hope he isn't on it. If he isn't dad (and it happens) he can walk away. If he is not get a lawyer and demand a paternity test.

Have your son keep all reciepts and log everything. Any and all time he tried to contact. Behaviors good and bad of mom and maternial grandma.

When he does get vistiation guide him don't take over. This might mean walking a way when it is hardest. Don't jump to quick to be a baby sitter for the "fun" stuff -- school/work yes but things like dating, prom, and other stuff he has a bigger commement.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I'm sorry, but I am closing this thread to new posts as it is no longer about circumcision.








to you, Jessica!


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