# Is sleep-training our generation's bottle-feeding?



## late-night nan (Jan 28, 2003)

When I hear comments about how prevalent bottle-feeding was in my mother's generation, I have started to wonder lately whether the mainstream will eventually embrace co-sleeping the way that bf-ing is now widely and increasingly acknowledged as better and healthier for children.

The arguments for sleep-training do have parallels with past rationalizations for bottle-feeding: more convenient for parents, more "scientific" and modern, easier to measure (ounces::hours), lessening parent-child bonding in connection with a fundamental part of life, anxiety over natural parenting styles restricting parents' sex lives, among others. Admittedly there's a lot that some may find arguable or controversial in the list I gave, but I do think there is something to the comparison.

I'll also confess that I have found myself envying parents who boast about how their kids sleep through the night for 12+ hours, especially in the newborn days when ds was up a few times every night. But I have read the sleep-training books and could not bear to let ds CIO. Even the sleep-trainers explain that babies do wake up during the night, but they need to have consistent sleep-associations to fall back asleep. I wonder what are the effects on the psyche if the baby's sleep-association is a temporary absence of human contact, the resignation that your primary care-givers are missing or unresponsive?

I recall reading on the boards a link to an article published by someone at Harvard Medical School who wrote about the potential psychological effects of sleep-training (CIO), including alienation from others. Does anyone remember this or have a link to something similar? Have there been any long-term studies about the effects of sleep-training?


----------



## babybugmama (Apr 7, 2003)

Hmm interesting thought...


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

You'd think these babies sleeping though the night would get hungry or need changed. Seems neglectful almost. I couldn't imagine ignoring my babies screams, THAT just seems heartless.


----------



## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

People with these magical sleep through the night newborns make me either extremely suspicious or extremely jealous. My son, at 18 mos., STILL doesn't consistently sleep through the night. We had about 1 month there when he did...oh, it was heaven. :LOL

As for the bottle feeding/sleep training analogy, could be. You never know. Did they have a bottle feeding guru like Ferber is the sleep training/CIO guru? I can't imagine Dr. Spock encouraging CIO.....


----------



## lillian (Dec 13, 2003)

to me it seems like bottle feeding is this generation's bottle feeding....


----------



## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lillian*
to me it seems like bottle feeding is this generation's bottle feeding....









:

Well, I ask myself why is 'early independence' being pushed?

The war against attachment is part of producing a family that can withstand two-income industrialized society. Even way back in Plato's Republic there is talk about how to raise children herd-style without parents; what would have to happen to have an effective social organization where there was a dedicated warrior class, and a dedicated class of workers to support the few 'philosopher/kings'. The maternal instinct/attachment instinct would have to be subverted or satisfied in some other way; so we are a fat people who watch a lot of tv, play a lot of solitary games/sports and don't need each other from a very early age. For the people who run the economy and have a lot of money this works well.

Unfortunately, this early-independence-to-produce-two-wage-earner-families model intersects neatly (in some key respects) with milennarianists and religious radicals who believe human nature is essentially evil/sinful and that children's wills therefore must be 'broken' and re-molded from an early age.


----------



## SKK (Apr 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagomom*







:

Well, I ask myself why is 'early independence' being pushed?

The war against attachment is part of producing a family that can withstand two-income industrialized society. Even way back in Plato's Republic there is talk about how to raise children herd-style without parents; what would have to happen to have an effective social organization where there was a dedicated warrior class, and a dedicated class of workers to support the few 'philosopher/kings'. The maternal instinct/attachment instinct would have to be subverted or satisfied in some other way; so we are a fat people who watch a lot of tv, play a lot of solitary games/sports and don't need each other from a very early age. For the people who run the economy and have a lot of money this works well.

Unfortunately, this early-independence-to-produce-two-wage-earner-families model intersects neatly (in some key respects) with milennarianists and religious radicals who believe human nature is essentially evil/sinful and that children's wills therefore must be 'broken' and re-molded from an early age.

fascinating ideas


----------



## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Moved to Nighttime Parenting...


----------



## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagomom*
Well, I ask myself why is 'early independence' being pushed?

The war against attachment is part of producing a family that can withstand two-income industrialized society. Even way back in Plato's Republic there is talk about how to raise children herd-style without parents; what would have to happen to have an effective social organization where there was a dedicated warrior class, and a dedicated class of workers to support the few 'philosopher/kings'. The maternal instinct/attachment instinct would have to be subverted or satisfied in some other way; so we are a fat people who watch a lot of tv, play a lot of solitary games/sports and don't need each other from a very early age. For the people who run the economy and have a lot of money this works well.

Unfortunately, this early-independence-to-produce-two-wage-earner-families model intersects neatly (in some key respects) with milennarianists and religious radicals who believe human nature is essentially evil/sinful and that children's wills therefore must be 'broken' and re-molded from an early age.

I totally agree with you.

Quote:

religious radicals who believe human nature is essentially evil/sinful and that children's wills therefore must be 'broken' and re-molded from an early age.
sadly many religious people I know feel this way and they aren't even radicals







But then I also know religious people who despise CIO and they BF.

I think we value independence so much in our culture that most parents don't understand how a child can go through a stage of dependence and come out "indendent" as an adult- as a Psychology student I just wish that every parent had some sort of understanding of basic psychological concepts so that they would see that bonding does not = a child who turns into a dependent, helpless adult.

Bottlefeeding by choice and CIO definately come from the same paradigm IMO


----------



## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagomom*







:

Well, I ask myself why is 'early independence' being pushed?

The war against attachment is part of producing a family that can withstand two-income industrialized society. Even way back in Plato's Republic there is talk about how to raise children herd-style without parents; what would have to happen to have an effective social organization where there was a dedicated warrior class, and a dedicated class of workers to support the few 'philosopher/kings'. The maternal instinct/attachment instinct would have to be subverted or satisfied in some other way; so we are a fat people who watch a lot of tv, play a lot of solitary games/sports and don't need each other from a very early age. For the people who run the economy and have a lot of money this works well.

Unfortunately, this early-independence-to-produce-two-wage-earner-families model intersects neatly (in some key respects) with milennarianists and religious radicals who believe human nature is essentially evil/sinful and that children's wills therefore must be 'broken' and re-molded from an early age.

I very much agree particularly about the push for independence. On other mainstream boards I'm sometimes just baffled about the constant push to have babies not be babies as soon as possible whether that's starting solids early, pushing milk early, weaning from a bottle, sleeping through the night etc.


----------



## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

No kidding, wasabi. Yes, some days I get tired of a totally (well, mostly) dependent creature needing me 24/7....but most of the time, I cherish it and want him to stay little for as long as he wants. Yesterday when I was napping w/him, I had the urge to get up and check my email and do some other things, but thought to myself, "stay here...everything else can wait, he will never be this age again. He will never be this small again."

I don't understand why more mamas don't cherish it instead of trying to hurry their way out of it (babyhood).


----------



## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I think sleep training was pretty prevalent then as well.

BFing is doing better because docs give it lip service. They will need to accept cosleeping to get it to have the same acceptance.


----------



## jasper28 (May 21, 2005)

The push for independence is unbelievable. I don't understand why people believe that an infant needs to be trained to become independent. He is learning how to crawl, sit-up, interact without me having to 'train' him. Sleeping and independence will follow when he is ready.
I have never heard a doctor prescribe co-sleeping, but I have heard them prescribe Ferber. The only person who has encouraged me to continue co-sleeping IRL has been the lactation consultant.


----------



## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

[I can't imagine Dr. Spock encouraging CIO.....[/QUOTE]

He doesn't. Well..didn't...he died a few years ago IIRC? But his books always encourage prompt attention to babies' needs.

I can't wait til the whole Ferber/Baby Whisperer/etc. fad dies down & more people go back to what most mammals on the planet do!


----------



## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagomom*







:

Well, I ask myself why is 'early independence' being pushed?

The war against attachment is part of producing a family that can withstand two-income industrialized society. Even way back in Plato's Republic there is talk about how to raise children herd-style without parents; what would have to happen to have an effective social organization where there was a dedicated warrior class, and a dedicated class of workers to support the few 'philosopher/kings'. The maternal instinct/attachment instinct would have to be subverted or satisfied in some other way; so we are a fat people who watch a lot of tv, play a lot of solitary games/sports and don't need each other from a very early age. For the people who run the economy and have a lot of money this works well.

Unfortunately, this early-independence-to-produce-two-wage-earner-families model intersects neatly (in some key respects) with milennarianists and religious radicals who believe human nature is essentially evil/sinful and that children's wills therefore must be 'broken' and re-molded from an early age.

























I totally agree. I don't understand this trend at all. People seem to be baffled as to why their pre-teen daughters want to dress like they are in their 20's - yet they are constantly pushing them to "grow up" be independent, etc.

I believe that it is much harder (at least in American society today) to teach INTERdependance. Children who are securely attached will seek appropriate independance at appropriate times.


----------



## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraboosMama*
[I can't imagine Dr. Spock encouraging CIO.....

He doesn't. Well..didn't...he died a few years ago IIRC? But his books always encourage prompt attention to babies' needs.

I can't wait til the whole Ferber/Baby Whisperer/etc. fad dies down & more people go back to what most mammals on the planet do![/QUOTE]
Yeah, he died in 2002, IIRC. I didn't think he encouraged that crap.

Yes, it really is disconcerting all the following of the baby trainers and CIO advocates, etc.. I just don't get it, it literally goes against every biological drive you have to ignore your baby.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Finch*
I can't imagine Dr. Spock encouraging CIO.....

hmmmmm.... I read Dr. Spock's (revised) book, and I would swear that he says that cio won't hurt a baby, and that you shouldn't feel bad doing it. At the end of the section, there's a small paragraph saying you don't *have* to cio if you don't want to.

Am I hallucinating? lol Has anyone else read this?


----------



## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

I threw out his revised book b/c he advocated for cio. And said if a child/babe threw up while cio'ing they did it for attention, and just to clean up the vomit (without picking up the child) and leaving the child there. I didn't even look at the rest of the book- it went straight to the trash







:


----------



## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

Here is from his site and vommitting:

Quote:

Some babies and young children vomit easily when enraged.It is not uncommon for an older baby or young child who does not want to go to bed to make himself upset enough that he vomits.

The parent is apt to be upset and may show it by anxious looks, by rushing to clean up, by being more sympathetic afterward, or by being quicker to come to the baby at the next scream.

This lesson is not lost on children, and they are likely to vomit more deliberately the next time they're in a temper. And they also come to be frightened by the vomiting they induce, because their parents are frightened by it.

I think parents should try to handle the vomiting very matter-of-factly, especially if the child is using it to bully them. If they are trying to get the child over a refusal to go to bed, they should stick to the original schedule and not go in and clean up until after the child has gone to sleep, or do so quickly and then leave the room
http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,3973,00.html


----------



## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

I agree to some extent. My older DD started gagging herself to the point of vomitting when she was about 19 months. The more we got upset about it the more she did it. So I can somewhat see the point. But she was not crying she was sticking her hand down her throat and she did love the attention she got from it. Fortunately she got over it fairly quickly. But that's not the same as a baby crying to the point that they vomit. Reading it in that context makes me want to vomit and yes the Dr. Spock I have has a very small paragraph saying it's ok to let the baby cry. It was in the context that somtimes babies cry which yes ok sometimes they cry even if you're holding them but you should keep holding them rather than leave them alone.


----------



## loomweaver (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraboosMama*























I totally agree. I don't understand this trend at all. People seem to be baffled as to why their pre-teen daughters want to dress like they are in their 20's - yet they are constantly pushing them to "grow up" be independent, etc.

I believe that it is much harder (at least in American society today) to teach INTERdependance. Children who are securely attached will seek appropriate independance at appropriate times.

I also totally agree and want to point out that if someone left their elderly parent to 'cry it out' You can bet APS would be involved and people would be horrified, why or why must we treat our young vulnerable bebes this way?
It makes my heart hurt...


----------



## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

_I can't imagine Dr. Spock encouraging CIO....._

ACtually he did encourage CIO. Prompt attention was only to be given to babies in the daytime.
He even gave explicit instructions not to go in even if the child VOMITS on themself. You are to let them fall asleep and then if you must go in and change the child and sheets without disturbing him.

His own words
"It is not uncommon for an older baby or young child who does not want to go to bed to make himself upset enough that he vomits.

The parent is apt to be upset and may show it by anxious looks, by rushing to clean up, by being more sympathetic afterward, or by being quicker to come to the baby at the next scream.

This lesson is not lost on children, and they are likely to vomit more deliberately the next time they're in a temper. And they also come to be frightened by the vomiting they induce, because their parents are frightened by it.

I think parents should try to handle the vomiting very matter-of-factly, especially if the child is using it to bully them. If they are trying to get the child over a refusal to go to bed, they should stick to the original schedule and not go in and clean up until after the child has gone to sleep, or do so quickly and then leave the room"
Here's more
"How to stop night waking
Most cases can be cured easily. The baby has to learn that there is nothing to be gained by waking and crying. This can usually be accomplished in two or three nights by letting her cry and not going to her at all. She is apt to cry for 20 or 30 minutes the first night (it may seem like much longer), 10 minutes the second night, not at all the third.

One additional requirement is necessary, in my experience. The baby must not see the parents when she wakes up. If she sees them, even if they pretend to be asleep, this angers her and stimulates her to keep up the crying indefinitely.

It is essential to put her to bed in a different room from theirs"

YOu can read him in his own words on www.drspock.com


----------



## late-night nan (Jan 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lillian*
to me it seems like bottle feeding is this generation's bottle feeding....

sorry for not checking in earlier but I just wanted to backtrack a bit and say that I agree that bottle feeding is still mainstream and sleep training was probably prevalent back then, too. for "our generation" i guess i'm referring to those who would be open to adopting some elements of a more natural parenting lifestyle but rely on info from their ped or APA or their peers. this is just anecdotal, but it seems that most people around us acknowledge bfing is better (even if they only want to nurse for 6mo, or max 1 yr), but almost everyone we know is pro-sleep-training.

I do think that the sleep-training has a lot to do with simply convenience for the parents, although i guess fostering so-called iindependence is the rationalization. I think it was Weissbluth who also touts his method as helping children do better eventually in school, which is sure to lure in a lot of parents to give it a try, no matter how counterintuitive. What I wonder is whether there has been any research to the contrary regarding the possible negative effects of these "scientific" methods, whether psychological or even related to SIDS. ugh, the Dr. Spock quote about not comforting your vomiting child and letting them fall asleep in their own vomit is, well, revolting...


----------



## BennyPai (Jul 22, 2005)

More and more of the parents I meet are cosleeping and responding to their babies' needs. My daughter's first pediatrician actually gave handouts with more up-to-date advice based on recent research, such as the need to respond to your child's cries; that it won't spoil them, rather teaches later self-soothing by modeling. I was impressed with this handout, considering the area we lived in at the time (the foothills of the NC mountains).

In this more culturally diverse area surrounding Wilmington, I expected to find similar-minded pediatricians... and was disappointed. My daughter was 6 months old when her pediatrician told me there was no reason she should be waking at night, and I should avoid nursing her back to sleep because it would encourage her to continue the habit.

Attachment parenting books are popular with parents I've met locally, though. However, I am also surprised by some of the people I know on a regular basis. So close, yet so far...

I met an open-minded pregnant woman this spring who was smitten with my daughter and impressed with my parenting style. My friend and I gave her all the information she needed to try it for herself, and she was excited. After her DS was born, though, she began seeking advice from CIO mothers...
Even this informed parent is going against her instinct for the sake of convenience.

I think we are moving in a good direction, but change will come slowly







... I try to be a model and let our parenting style speak for itself and not shut other parents out as I may be their only source of first-hand advice...


----------



## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Just had to comment on those miraculous newborns who sleep through the night from day one.

I have one. My first child was so high needs that I didn't think it would be possible for ANY baby to sleep well (dd1 woke every 1-2 hours until she was 19 or 20 months old, then she started sleeping longer stretches...because she was simply ready, no sleep training needed!). Dd2 has slept 6-8 hour stretches (waking very briefly to nurse once or twice) since the day she was born. We cosleep, but sometimes I think she might be one of those odd babes that would actually be fine in a crib (though I wouldn't be fine with her in a crib, I like her snuggled right next to me!).

In any event, I will be SO happy when the research creeps into the mainstream...that yes, ignoring infant cries IS detrimental, that there ARE effects on the hypothalamic-pituitary-axes (and hence cortisol production). I could go on and on...

And the op was refering to Michael Commons at Harvard.


----------



## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

:


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *late-night nan*
sorry for not checking in earlier but I just wanted to backtrack a bit and say that I agree that bottle feeding is still mainstream and sleep training was probably prevalent back then, too. for "our generation" i guess i'm referring to those who would be open to adopting some elements of a more natural parenting lifestyle but rely on info from their ped or APA or their peers. this is just anecdotal, but it seems that most people around us acknowledge bfing is better (even if they only want to nurse for 6mo, or max 1 yr), but almost everyone we know is pro-sleep-training.

I do think that the sleep-training has a lot to do with simply convenience for the parents, although i guess fostering so-called iindependence is the rationalization...

I agree with that. Yes, both were, and are, used now. But now the general consensus is that "breast is best", but formula is acceptable. We don't ever hear that "cosleeping is best" but sleep-training is acceptable. kwim? (not saying that it is, you know). We just hear that you need to sleep train if you want your child to sleep - EVER! In mainstream parenting mags, it's pretty much all we read. I don't think I've ever read in a parenting mag that you don't have to ever make your baby cry in the sleeping process. And pedi's say it too- mine told me that I was going to have to let him cry at some point. And most friends and aquaintances. When I mention that nighttimes are rough with ds (they used to be) I almost always get that I need to do some form of cio. I guess no one has non-cio suggestions like I was looking for?
When I was pg, I don't think that I even knew that there was an alternative to cio. lol. It sounds really funny now, but that's just what you hear, and when you hear something enough times, and nothing to the contrary, it seems to be true. Lucky for me, near the end of my pg, I got The Baby Book by Dr. Sears, and BAM! it was like "oh yeah...well that makes sense" lol

Ok, I have no idea if I said anything worthwhile there, but there it is. lol


----------



## darwinphish (Feb 13, 2005)

I do think sleep "training" is today's big fad. You know, my DD sleeps in her own room (she seems to only sleep well with absolute quiet and stillness, go figure) but we have NEVER let her cry herself to sleep, or cry when she wakes up. She knows, unconditionally, that we are there for her the instant she needs us.

What I don't understand is that it's always "sleep training" versus cosleeping! If parents are uncomfortable or unwilling to cosleep (or like us, tried but it just didn't work) then they can STILL respond to their infants and get them to sleep without crying! It's totally do-able. I wish the mainstream could just acknowledge that babies need parents at night, too!


----------



## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

the harvard article is here -- http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...enNeedTou.html . there are also tons of articles filled with copious statistics and endnotes on the safety and benefit of cosleeping here -- http://mothering.com/articles/new_baby/sleep/sleep.html .

i only hope that sleep-training is our generation's bottle feeding. maybe folks will start talking about how cosleeping is best, huh?


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

chicagomom made some great points about the way our society trains babies being part and parcel of maintaining the two-income family. We talk about the "convenience" of sleep-training, but I think "survival" is a more accurate way to think about it when you are talking about a mama who must work outside the home, and whose dh is not involved in nighttime parenting. That is is the situation of many mamas I know IRL, sadly. I don't believe I could have met my ds' nighttime needs if I had had another job besides him and no help from my partner. And I'd say that's the majority situation for American mamas - a bad situation that creates a demand for bad, bad, _bad_ advice from "experts" who think a baby can be made to sleep the way an adult or older child does.

I think the OP has a very plausible theory. Maybe the next generation will see that cosleeping is a demonstrably superior approach that deserves some social support just as we are now beginning to give breastfeeding some social support (although not enough!).


----------



## heket (Nov 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraboosMama*
I can't wait til the whole Ferber/Baby Whisperer/etc. fad dies down & more people go back to what most mammals on the planet do!

Mammals?!? Oh that's right, *_we're*_ mammals! That's why we have these mammary glands... to feed our offspring!














:

J/K







I do agree with you on this.


----------



## heket (Nov 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraboosMama*























I totally agree. I don't understand this trend at all. People seem to be baffled as to why their pre-teen daughters want to dress like they are in their 20's - yet they are constantly pushing them to "grow up" be independent, etc.

I believe that it is much harder (at least in American society today) to teach INTERdependance. Children who are securely attached will seek appropriate independance at appropriate times.









:


----------



## heket (Nov 18, 2003)

I don't know if this applies to his views on CIO, but there was something else I was reading in another forum (can't remember which now -- I think it was vax), that basically said his name is on the site, but the views and articles are those of other doctors. Like I said, he may have been CIO (I can't comment because I don't know), but just be aware that while he's gone the site lives on through others who are applying their views to his name.


----------



## heket (Nov 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *late-night nan*
I do think that the sleep-training has a lot to do with simply convenience for the parents, although i guess fostering so-called iindependence is the rationalization.

Okay, as a WOHM, I'm going to say I take a bit of offense to this. Unless I'm wrong, sleep training promotes that children should go to sleep at a specific time and parents should respond (or not) accordingly to their needs, but that ultimately their sleep is scheduled and patterned around the parent's need, not the child's.

I would *love* to let dd stay up til 11pm every night and wake between 8 and 9am. I can't. I work and I have to be at work at 9am. Pretty soon, she will be going to a lovely AP oriented babysitter (boy did I get lucky with her!), but this means that she will have to be in the car, ready to go at 7:30am. That means an early bedtime if she's to have a healthy amount of sleep for her little body. And this means that we will probably have to sleep train her so I can get enough sleep for work (she is notoriously a bad sleeper, much like dh). I don't think this means I am any more of an evil to pro-cosleepers/ non-sleep trainers. I constantly talk about our family bed with other parents in the hopes that either they will become interested or will feel that they have someone to relate to.

Maybe I'm being self-centered, or maybe I'm taking this too much too heart. I just know that it struck a cord and not all sleep trainers are out for their personal agendas.


----------



## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

Here's a link to the summary of the Harvard study as well as a link to the 15 mpage write up on it.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...enNeedTou.html

http://www.tiac.net/~commons/AAAS%20Interviews.pdf

Can you tell I've shared this with a lot of people?? They're among my favorite bookmarks.







Luckily family lives too far away to give many opinions or else I would've used this on them too.









-jeanine and connor


----------



## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

jasper28 said:


> The push for independence is unbelievable. I don't understand why people believe that an infant needs to be trained to become independent. He is learning how to crawl, sit-up, interact without me having to 'train' him. Sleeping and independence will follow when he is ready.
> 
> On another board that I go to someone came up with this analogy. If I need to train my child to get him to sleep better at night should I then put my baby who is having trouble rolling over in the dryer so I can train him on how to do that too?
> 
> -jeanine and connor (2yo)


----------



## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

Sorry, posted twice
-jeanine and connor (2yo)


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heket*
Okay, as a WOHM, I'm going to say I take a bit of offense to this. Unless I'm wrong, sleep training promotes that children should go to sleep at a specific time and parents should respond (or not) accordingly to their needs, but that ultimately their sleep is scheduled and patterned around the parent's need, not the child's.

I was reading "sleep training" to mean "cio". That's how I took it. That someone leaves their child to cio in order to be "teach" the child to sleep on it's own. To me, simply trying to put your child to bed when it will work for you is not necessarily sleep training, as long as you tend to your child's needs in the process.
So if you're not doing cio, then I personally don't feel like any of this would be targeted at what you're doing. kwim?
I'd imagine that if you have to work then you'd HAVE to have dc go to bed at a reasonable hour! What else could you do? lol


----------



## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

In my opinion, all parenting issues are this generation's bottlefeeding. We have only begun to undo the intensely damaging parenting ideas that came into fashion in the last 100 years or so.

So not only is sleep training our bottlefeeding, but so are early solid foods (which MANY people still do), childbirth, discipline issues, and our entire parenting concepts.

I think it remains to be seen whether we'll really be able to get rid of most of those horribly misguided concepts though, which seem to be rooted in the idea that we need to be careful not to "spoil" children.


----------



## late-night nan (Jan 28, 2003)

heket said:


> Okay, as a WOHM, I'm going to say I take a bit of offense to this. Unless I'm wrong, sleep training promotes that children should go to sleep at a specific time and parents should respond (or not) accordingly to their needs, but that ultimately their sleep is scheduled and patterned around the parent's need, not the child's.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Hi Heket--Thanks for your comment, which helps clear up some confusion about what we're calling sleep-training. I meant no offense to WOHMs, and I am myself a WOHM also though with a later schedule than yours--and in this thread I have been assuming that sleep-training involved CIO, as Deva33mommy suggested. As an opposite or alternative to sleep-training, I was thinking more along the lines of Dr. Sears' concept "parenting to sleep" (which is how I would characterize your approach also) rather than allowing a child to sleep whenever they want (although I understand some parents do object to imposing schedules).
> ...


----------



## natesmamma (Jul 8, 2005)

Are there any books/studies about these ideas that support what is being said here? I ask, because I'd love to have some solid stuff to back myself up with when debating these things with other family members and friends.


----------



## heket (Nov 18, 2003)

Becky & Late-night Nan: Thanks for putting that in perspective for me and I'm sorry I came off so defensive. I guess I had a bug up my







yesterday and I channelled it through the boards. I usually try to wait before I make comments like that so I don't have to make apologies in posts like this one...







:

I think Kay said it best so far -- sleep training is really just one issue in the larger picture of parenting issues that are affecting our generation. It will be interesting to see how changes will go when ideas have been rooted 500+ years into the past...


----------



## eqleslie (May 4, 2004)

I would just like to put in an opinion about the push for independence at such a young age. Everyone gives you all this advise about oh just let them cry it out. They will get to sleep. They have to learn how to do things without you. Quit spoiling them. yada yada yada.... Then the same people will turn around and tell you to cherish every moment because they won't be little for very long. They grow up so fast etc. Bleg! That's just one thing that makes me mad about all the parenting advise I get







By the way, I still co-sleep, still BF my 20month old ds, and am due for 2nd dc in February. I'm just wondering how I'm going to manage having 2 kids wanting to nurse for an hour to fall asleep at the same time..... The nursing for an hour at nap time is going to be an issue too I believe! He's got a little while to change. I hope he does it on his own before then


----------



## PinkTerrier (Mar 16, 2004)

Right now I'm reading Adventures In Tandem Nursing, a La Leche League publication. It's very comprehensive and reassuring in regard to what's involved with and how to manage nursing while pregnant and nursing more than one baby afterward. It might help you figure things out.


> By the way, I still co-sleep, still BF my 20month old ds, and am due for 2nd dc in February. I'm just wondering how I'm going to manage having 2 kids wanting to nurse for an hour to fall asleep at the same time..... The nursing for an hour at nap time is going to be an issue too I believe! He's got a little while to change. I hope he does it on his own before then


----------



## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow Brite*
Here is from his site and vommitting:

http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,3973,00.html


eeeeeek







I stand corrected! I didn't read Dr. Spock's book for advice w/ my dd - but i remember reading/using some of it when teaching a red cross babysitting class. I was impressed w/ his stance on vegetarianism/veganism - but usually if I am recommending a baby/parenting book to a new mom - I recommend the Dr. Sears stuff


----------



## cchoudhury (Jul 25, 2005)

I think many people have given their power as parents over to doctors. Accepting their wisdom on things which we know intuitively to be wrong. Leaving a baby to CIO is sad, we know that, but if the doctor says "oh, that's okay" then we feel it is okay. As a society we need to reclaim our intuitive parent power. I know I am preaching to the converted here!
Someone told me she got her dd to sleep by letting her CIO and she also put 'about ten' pacifiers in the crib so the baby (7months) would hopefully find one and put it in her mouth to fall asleep. She told me this like it was a great idea that i should try. Why is it I'm frowned upon for letting my baby sleep near me and I respond to each cry? Or someotimes not frowned upon but given that "oh your setting yourself up for problems' talk.


----------



## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natesmamma*
Are there any books/studies about these ideas that support what is being said here? I ask, because I'd love to have some solid stuff to back myself up with when debating these things with other family members and friends.

"Good Nights" by Dr. Jay Gordon is full of wonderful information and citations to various studies.


----------



## mommy65 (Jul 11, 2005)

Here's what gets me--- why is it that the parents who've "successfully" trained their kids to sleep through or to wean are thought to really have this whole parenting thing down pat? I mean it's as if the more your life resembles your life pre-baby, the better job you are doing. The less your kids "need" from you, the better. I get sympathetic looks and lots of parenting suggestions when I mention that I co-sleep or am still nursing-- as if I need help to stop these things and I just haven't managed to figure it out. Sorry, but this is a real hot topic for me. Your life is *supposed* to look diff. after kids!







:


----------



## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy65*
Here's what gets me--- why is it that the parents who've "successfully" trained their kids to sleep through or to wean are thought to really have this whole parenting thing down pat? I mean it's as if the more your life resembles your life pre-baby, the better job you are doing. The less your kids "need" from you, the better. I get sympathetic looks and lots of parenting suggestions when I mention that I co-sleep or am still nursing-- as if I need help to stop these things and I just haven't managed to figure it out. Sorry, but this is a real hot topic for me. Your life is *supposed* to look diff. after kids!







:

That is SO true!

It's like in our culture, if you do anything differently because of your children, or do something just because they want to, you're one of those "indulgent" parents who let their kids run wild.







:


----------



## retromama (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy65*
Here's what gets me--- why is it that the parents who've "successfully" trained their kids to sleep through or to wean are thought to really have this whole parenting thing down pat? [snip] Sorry, but this is a real hot topic for me. Your life is *supposed* to look diff. after kids!







:









:
Thanks for totally articulating the frustration I've been having! It's so true!

I hate people saying "well, of course she has to sleep in the crib eventually, you'll manage it sooner or later" like I'm some kind of moron who can't get her in there.


----------



## retromama (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natesmamma*
Are there any books/studies about these ideas that support what is being said here? I ask, because I'd love to have some solid stuff to back myself up with when debating these things with other family members and friends.

I don't know how people here feel about her, but I love Deborah Jackson's _Three in a Bed_.


----------



## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
_I can't imagine Dr. Spock encouraging CIO....._

ACtually he did encourage CIO. Prompt attention was only to be given to babies in the daytime.
He even gave explicit instructions not to go in even if the child VOMITS on themself. You are to let them fall asleep and then if you must go in and change the child and sheets without disturbing him.

His own words
"It is not uncommon for an older baby or young child who does not want to go to bed to make himself upset enough that he vomits.

The parent is apt to be upset and may show it by anxious looks, by rushing to clean up, by being more sympathetic afterward, or by being quicker to come to the baby at the next scream.

This lesson is not lost on children, and they are likely to vomit more deliberately the next time they're in a temper. And they also come to be frightened by the vomiting they induce, because their parents are frightened by it.

I think parents should try to handle the vomiting very matter-of-factly, especially if the child is using it to bully them. If they are trying to get the child over a refusal to go to bed, they should stick to the original schedule and not go in and clean up until after the child has gone to sleep, or do so quickly and then leave the room"
Here's more
"How to stop night waking
Most cases can be cured easily. The baby has to learn that there is nothing to be gained by waking and crying. This can usually be accomplished in two or three nights by letting her cry and not going to her at all. She is apt to cry for 20 or 30 minutes the first night (it may seem like much longer), 10 minutes the second night, not at all the third.

One additional requirement is necessary, in my experience. The baby must not see the parents when she wakes up. If she sees them, even if they pretend to be asleep, this angers her and stimulates her to keep up the crying indefinitely.

It is essential to put her to bed in a different room from theirs"

YOu can read him in his own words on www.drspock.com









Oh my God. I HATE it when people suggest that a child crying until s/he vomits is *okay* and should be overlooked. I feel sick after reading that. I really really do. Stuff like that makes me physically ill. Poor babies.


----------



## heket (Nov 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
That is SO true!

It's like in our culture, if you do anything differently because of your children, or do something just because they want to, you're one of those "indulgent" parents who let their kids run wild.







:









:
And it's even worse when you're challenging your spouse on this issue...


----------



## late-night nan (Jan 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heket*
Becky & Late-night Nan: Thanks for putting that in perspective for me and I'm sorry I came off so defensive. I guess I had a bug up my







yesterday and I channelled it through the boards. I usually try to wait before I make comments like that so I don't have to make apologies in posts like this one...







:

I think Kay said it best so far -- sleep training is really just one issue in the larger picture of parenting issues that are affecting our generation. It will be interesting to see how changes will go when ideas have been rooted 500+ years into the past...

Hi Heket~ Sorry for not posting earlier! it's been a crazy week and somehow my subscription to this thread turned off...

Anyway, no worries about your response. In this matter, I think it's so important to be sensitive to the needs of fellow WOHMs and how co-sleeping may affect their lives, so I'm glad you said something and helped clarify the terms of the conversation.









As much as I agree that it's unfair and kind of sad for parents to keep trying to rearrange their lives to emulate a pre-baby state, I also think someone raised a good point when a p.p. said that for many it can be, or at least seem, a matter of survival if they work and must keep strict hours, esp if they are not working in a family-friendly environment (or have a partner in that situation). That may be why so many people think they need to go along with the mainstream yadda-yadda--and the pressure to sleep train pronto-- rather than follow their intuition and respond to their baby's cries.









Also, this thread started in TAO but was moved to the Family Bed forum, and I finally saw the sticky that has a lot of good links regarding this question...


----------



## tiafit (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraboosMama*
[I can't imagine Dr. Spock encouraging CIO.....

He doesn't. Well..didn't...he died a few years ago IIRC? But his books always encourage prompt attention to babies' needs.

I can't wait til the whole Ferber/Baby Whisperer/etc. fad dies down & more people go back to what most mammals on the planet do![/QUOTE]

3 Doc who come to mind who encourage cosleep Dr Jay Gordon, Dr.Sears , Dr Fleiss yeaH!!

I wish is was just a fad this independence push for babies and then toddlers. I am feeling the pressure for not sending my 2.9 year old to preschool this year . my dh and i feel good about our choices but the "preschool " thing in our area is nutty and so overboard . and yes i am considering homeschool just not there yet.

maybe our kids will make the change back to "what most mammals on the planet do! Indigo children .....

I was reading Vanity Fair and they had a full page with a photo of Kent State in spring 1960's and a photo of spring break 2005 at South Padre Island with "bikini beer bongs etcc.." It was an essay contest asking what is on the minds of paris hilton watching, us mag reading,play station,cell phones generation and that is the PG stuff. It really made me think about my kids and what is and will influence them . I know I am rambling but it made me very emtional . sorry for getting kinda of subjct


----------



## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

You know what I can't stand? Someone claiming to be AP but simultaneously endorsing CIO. I know someone who uses CIO on her child, but insists she's AP because "AP isn't a checklist." This woman started CIO when her babe was 7 months old, and insists it "saved her life." She claims she was "responding to he baby's needs" because the baby has to sleep, and she (mama) needed a break so that she could be a better mama during th day.

Well, I do think AP has a (very short) checklist -- no CIO, and try to breastfeed.

I think this woman is insane for thinking CIO can be a "healthy part of attachment parenting" (as she once said to me).


----------



## jasperab (Apr 17, 2004)

At a family get together recently a cousin had brought over her little 9mos boy. We rarely get to see him and talk to his mom. When she was pregnet she became this "all natual" girl and to be honest, I always thought she would be a great APish mom. Well someone asked her if he sleeps through the night and she replyed, yes since he was 4mos because "we made him, he had no choice" She said that her DH slept downstairs for the time and voila, sleeping baby now. She also keeps him on a very firm schedule that she does not deviate from. I felt rather shocked. I think some of the mentality comes from the 'baby fits into our life' and in my opinon, I fit neither into my childrens life nor they in mine, but rather we fit into each others life. We create a new life, so to speak, when we have children.


----------



## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jasperab*
I think some of the mentality comes from the 'baby fits into our life' and in my opinon, I fit neither into my childrens life nor they in mine, but rather we fit into each others life. We create a new life, so to speak, when we have children.

I totally agree! I always look at those parents and feel sad for those kids who are forced to fit into their parents' lives. Our kids are not the same after we have kids - and that's a good thing! Why is it that the more our lives resemble the lives of childless adults, the greater our success is perceived to be? I will judge my success as a parent by how happy, compassionate, and well-adjusted people my kids turn out to be, not by how often I was able to go clubbing or how many hours of overtime I got at work.


----------



## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heket*
, but there was something else I was reading in another forum (can't remember which now -- I think it was vax), that basically said his name is on the site, but the views and articles are those of other doctors. Like I said, he may have been CIO (I can't comment because I don't know), but just be aware that while he's gone the site lives on through others who are applying their views to his name.

Actually that was a direct quote from his book. It wasnt an advice column of another doc on his website. IT as his book quoted on the website.


----------



## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Actually that was a direct quote from his book. It wasnt an advice column of another doc on his website. IT as his book quoted on the website.

Yeah his newer editions toned down the CIO message somewhat, but he wasas hardcore a CIO'er as anyone was. Not that he was considered hardcore during his time - I'm sure it was the norm.







No wonder everyone is so screwed up emotionally.


----------



## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I cant remember where I read it. I think it was in one of my anthropology texts a while back, they had this whole thing that traced this detatched parenting style. Sleep training, infant scheduling etc. . . to the industrial revolution and this idea of "modernity" in which children ought to be trained from birth to follow a strict schedule in order to make good workers for a modern industrialized nation.
I cant remember who it was. There was a whole video series we watched on parenting all over the world.
Joline


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't really consider myself AP, because I'd never heard of it until I stumbled over these forums in March (was looking for support re: an impending c-section). But, I can't see how CIO could be considered AP. I can see someone omitting almost any of the individual standard practices here (eg. non-vax, non-circ, CD, etc.) - but I can't see how someone could practice CIO and consider themselves AP. How is ignoring your child's cries "attachment"??

johub: Maybe that's my problem. I'm not modern enough. I'm hopeless at schedules, and I'm afraid my kids are going to be the same way. I'm just not very good at living to a clock or calendar. It's time to go out - baby needs feeding...okay - I'll get there when I get there. I'm about to leave, and remember that I need to wash diapers - okay - I'll catch the next bus. I'm just not good at scheduling everything...and I wouldn't even know where to start where scheduling my kids was concerned. My oldest is starting 7th grade in September...and I can finally get him out the door on time, but that's mostly because of dh's influence. I don't know how I kept an outside job for 10 years.


----------



## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I cant remember where I read it. I think it was in one of my anthropology texts a while back, they had this whole thing that traced this detatched parenting style. Sleep training, infant scheduling etc. . . to the industrial revolution and this idea of "modernity" in which children ought to be trained from birth to follow a strict schedule in order to make good workers for a modern industrialized nation.
I cant remember who it was. There was a whole video series we watched on parenting all over the world.
Joline

That's fascinating. I would I had the anthropology text that has that info.







I could study parenting, in this culture and others, and in different species, all day long, literally.


----------

