# wife wants to cut!- PLEASE HELP!!!



## DivinDaddy (Feb 5, 2008)

Hey all... I'M GONNA BE A DADDY!







First post. Apparently we have the opposite problem everyone else has: I don't wanna circ and she does!!!

Background...A couple of years ago after seeing a commercial for a prosthetic foreskin I realized there must be a purpose for the prepuce







. So I researched it and was surprised to find a large anti-circ movement on the web.

After lots of reading and video watching I came to the same conclusion I feel anyone who examines the issue rationally and reasonably must... That its a horrible, barbaric thing to do to a person without their consent and this would NEVER be done to my son and maybe I could change some other minds, too.

Well now we're pregnant and it may be a boy, so of course we've been "discussing" it, which has been pretty stressful for the both of us. I think I've convinced her there's no medical reason, but she still wants to do it.

Her main thing is that she really thinks its "gross", her friends think its gross, shes never been around a natural one, and is worried his girlfriends will think its gross.

I've tried to counter with "its much more common now than it used to be". But shes not buying it. Her friend works at a daycare and she says only one is natural. I've never been one to assume that just because most sheople do something, its the right thing to do. But she kinda is.

Shes seen the vids, the pics, the facts. Even the Penn and Teller. And she still wants to cut. I am hoping for a boy, but this issue is ruining what should be a really special time for us.

She'll be reading this, so PLEASE help me save my baby boy! (if we ever have one







)


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Perhaps ask her: "Would you want our son to be with a girl that was so shallow she would dump him because the head of his penis is not showing?"

YOu can do this, daddy! Here are some more articles I like to show:

http://www.infocirc.org/MensHlth.htm

http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...cumcision.html

Also, maybe try a risk argument? How would she feel if she subjected her son to surgery because of some hypothetical future girlfriend and ended up causing him:

-buried penis
-trapped penis
-webbed penis
-excessive bleeding
-meatal stenosis
-adhesions
-glan amputation or injury
-infection
-death


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## cherri0196 (Jun 30, 2007)

You have the penis so you should make the decision









( A lot of women say they circ'ed because they left the decision up to their SO since they have the penis *eye roll*)

Tell her you are not going to put your son at risk of (worse case senerio) death, just because you (your wife) think its gross, tell her you think the female foreskin ( clitoral hood) is gross and if it's a girl you want to get her cricumcised, and if she protest's that its not the same, tell her why not?? its cleaner, and healthier, and less chance of infection, not to mention it is gross to have a clitoral hood.

Make sure and let her know the extreme pain is involved in a circumcision and that they use little to no anestisia during the procedure. i know most women (witheven a little bit of a soul) will not put there newborn baby in harms way if they know the fact's.

Keep up the good work, if you need us, you know where to find us 

Good luck and a happy and healthy pregnancy and delivery


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Show her the story of the woman on here whose son has had all these problems and future operations because of complications to a routine circumcision that was done by a well respected accredited doctor at that hospital. There is no reason to exclude the possibility of that happening to your future child if he is circumcised. Tell her to keep that in mind.

This may be a bit harsh, but I think it needs to be said. She needs to remember that her baby's foreskin is a part of her baby as much as other part. Being disgusted by that part is like saying she is disgusted with her baby, so much so she wants him to be surgically altered. Tell her that, that is what the male body is. Thats just reality, and if she has a problem with the natural male body, the problem is not in the baby, but the problem that needs to be fixed is her feelings.

She has all the facts here, the problem is she needs to change her point of view. You need to sit down and try and give her some perspective on this issue. Ask her questions like, if there is any other part of the body she would cut off so other people would feel more comfortable with his body? If not why?

On a side note, I am a guy too (all be it, a younger one, 18 so I dont deal with the kid issue yet) so I know how much more difficult this issue to talk to others about because everything gets much more complex. Whats funny to me is before I came to this site I did not know there were any woman involved in this issue.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

The foreskin is there for a reason. If a baby is born without one it is considered a birth defect.

The foreskin helps stimulate the g spot along with like a 100 other things it has a real purpose and it is wrong to remove it especially because she dosnt like the way it looks.

After all she will only be seeing that part of him for a few short years and she will not be the one having sexual contact with it later in life so leave it up to the boy to decide if he wants it done. After all it dosnt hurt nearly as much when they are grown since they are under general and there is no ripping off the foreskin from the glans like a finger nail from a finger and he can actually get pain meds and no pee and poo on it all day.

I hate to say it but that is just so shallow to care what others think about your child genitals. Will she be showing it to them all the time or what??


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## Vancouver Mommy (Aug 15, 2007)

Congratulations on the babe on the way! There is a ton of info on this site that is very compelling, as well as all the other stuff you've read online. Has she read the same articles you've read? I wish you all the best in your attempt at changing her mind before your little one arrives. I think that women of our generation sometimes have a difficult time because most of the men of our generation were routinely circed. I don't imagine that girls your son's age will have the same bias. In fact based on most stats that I've seen, circumcised boys will actually be the minority. It's only since having an intact boy that I've started wondering what it would be like if my partner hadn't been circed at birth and greiving the pain he endured as an infant.


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## gargirl (Dec 30, 2006)

Oh man, it is so not gross! I don't have a long list of ex-lovers, but I was with one intact male and it was different but in a good way. Nothing gross about it at all. We are not used to seeing intact penises so they do seem a bit odd at first but you get used to it and then they look just fine.

My younger two sons are intact, as I didn't know any better with my first,







and the number of baby boys being left uncut is something around 50% these days, so future girlfriends for your babe are quite likely to take intact penises as pretty par for the course. In contrast to your wife's friend's daycare experience, I have many, many friends who have boys and almost none of them are circumsized who are 12 or younger. Within the past 6 years I have not changed a circumsized boy and I babysit freely, for free!

Good Luck!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

The current statistics say that nearly half the boys born now are intact and the number of circed is dropping yearly. So before to much longer circ will be the minority.

Circ is penis reduction surgery any circed man has a smaller penis than he should have that is sad but true. After all when you remove something it dosnt get bigger right?

I am having a really hard time understanding how a mom with all the information you have given her can sit back and say oh well gonna hurt him any way. Our job as parents is to protect our kids not hurt them.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

I know it seems gross. I thought that way too. But when I circ'd my son; it was because I thought (and was led to believe) that it would benefit him medically. I wouldn't have done it otherwise. A couple years later, I learned that I was lied to and mislead. I'm angry and sad. I wish someone had given me just ONE little flicker in the lightbulb over my head. It's the single biggest regret of my entire life.

When my son (who is 4 years old) complains that his penis hurts; it scares the sh*t out of me. I will worry about complications well past his teen years.

I should also mention that my past partners were all cut; and after DS was born, my partner was not. I thought uncut was gross until I realized that it's really not that different in appearance when aroused. And the times in between sex, those times were up to him to deal with; and he didn't think he was gross because it was normal to him.

Really THINK about what you're doing. You're removing vital skin. (If you don't know how it's vital, look it up) If someone told you five fingers is gross and you should have baby's pinky removed, would you? It's not like he'll remember it later, right? There's so much thinking and reading you have to do...don't fail your son like I did.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

tell her that if your son decides to live in Europe or in a developped country _other_ than the USA, many more women would be weirded out by it.
Anyways, this is a shallow argument. How would she feel if you had a daughter and men would reject her because the size of her breasts? Would she say there is something wrong with her???


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

I have a few word documents that may help. They are from an infamous pro-circ site but take the stance that INFANT circ is bad. Private message me your email address and I will be happy to send them.
I also have a document explaining what male circ would entail on a female (the literal pieces removed)...

If she had a baby girl with a floppy vulva, would she have it cut at birth, without proper anasthetic and pain relief to make it look prettier? Not to mention feces and urine working into an open wound... Can you get her to _read_ the "Graphic Circ Video" thread with the transcript? I think reading it is so impacting because it is very raw emotionally... and the father goes along with the doctor because the doctor is the "authority figure" and implies there is no pain (no anesthetic, the baby felt it ALL)...








Daddy. You also have the legal right to protect your son by saying, no, his body will be left alone. Circ cannot be undone, no matter how well a man restores. One day, your child will ask her why it was done to him, and the answer "I thought it was best" is not going to fly with his generation. Too many people have access to the knowledge about circ that our parents were denied.

eta-- the video by Lou on the front page here is very well done, and shows really how... nice... and... _complete_ an intact penis really looks. The more you look at pictures of intact penises, the more a circ'ed penis just looks... naked and scarred. A few months ago, a circ'ed penis looked "normal" to me, now, I really notice the scars and see it more as "damaged"... and I had intact brothers-- so I am one of the few in my area to even _see_ an intact penis!


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Good for you for questioning things! You are a great daddy!


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

So not gross, all my partners have been intact (but then I am from the UK and think that circumcised penises look weird).

She may think its gross but surely it is up to your potential boy child to decide and really, I really doubt your wife is going to be entering into a sexual relationship with him so why is she so bothered about it?

When I met DH, I used to think all vegetables were gross, he always countered me with 'how can you think its gross when you have never even tried one'? I learnt to acceept that vegetables are not gross, they are normal part of your healthy diet and in fact have an important role to play in our overall health. I still don't like vegetables (due to previous bad vegetable experiences), but I sure as hell wouldn't inflict my feelings about vegetables onto my children (who are infact vegetarian and adore their vegetables), I hope you can kinda see what I am trying to say? I guess really I am babbling like an insane gin woman so I shall stop here.......


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

And congratulations!!!!!!!


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
Perhaps ask her: "Would you want our son to be with a girl that was so shallow she would dump him because the head of his penis is not showing?"

YOu can do this, daddy! Here are some more articles I like to show:

http://www.infocirc.org/MensHlth.htm

http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...cumcision.html

Also, maybe try a risk argument? How would she feel if she subjected her son to surgery because of some hypothetical future girlfriend and ended up causing him:

-buried penis
-trapped penis
-webbed penis
-excessive bleeding
-meatal stenosis
-adhesions
-glan amputation or injury
-infection
-death


I just wanted to say that I am pregnant with my first child, a boy







and I have been struggling with the decision of whether or not to circ. My sister just recently had a boy and didn't, but all of my friends think it is weird not to and so it has caused some confusion in my mind. After reading these articles, I have made a solid decision NOT to circ. Thank you so much for posting that information.


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## snangel (Nov 27, 2006)

Congrats on your upcoming baby, and welcome to MDC!
My husband is intact, and is also the first intact man I have been with. It is not gross. Funny story actually.......The first while I had no clue he was intact.







It wasn't until I saw it in flaccid state that I knew. I have 3 intact sons. 2 with my Dh and 1 I fought to protect from his father (exH) I took my exH to court to stop a circ from happening. There was no way in h3ll I would let anyone near my babies. It makes me sick to think of. Try to get your wife to just imagine what it would be like.....to be born and be so peaceful nursing away, in pure bliss, then to be taken by a stranger, unwrapped, undressed, cold, and strapped to a cold hard board, with bright lights. To have the head of your penis ripped away from its foreskin, then to have that chopped off, then to be left to pee and poo all over a raw open wound. You get no pain relief, and you have no idea what just happened to you. You were just born, then tortured. Then it's treated like no big deal. I would never trust again. That would be an awful welcome to this world.Protect your baby, it is your job. It will be the most important thing you ever do. He will thank you.


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## BigC (Oct 16, 2006)

Hi,

I am male and intact. I have never had a woman kick me out of bed because of it. Women really don't care, despite what your wife's friends say.

I see from your profile that you live somewhere between Orlando and Tampa. I'm not sure, but I think Florida is one of the lower circumcision rate states. Florida Medicaid does not pay for circumcision. If you go to www.floridahealthstat.com and search for infant circumcision, you will find that there are very few circumcisions in Florida Hospitals. This doesn't mean that they don't happen, just that they don't happen often in the hospital. I couldn't find similar data for doctor's offices.

One family we know from day care is from Orlando. They had their son circumcised but they had a hard time finding a doctor to do it. If it is hard to find a doctor in Orlando that performs circumcisions, it is probably not very common there. I think the mother regrets doing it.

If your wife is worried about him being different, my family lives in Gainesville and my son is intact. That means that there will be at least one other boy in Florida that is like your (potential) son.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

How many intact men has she been with, to conclude so definitively that it's "gross?" I've been with two. It's never put me off in the least









I have three girlfriends who have been with both intact and cut men. They have told me on several different occasions how lucky I am that my dh is intact and that they wish their dhs were intact as well. They have told me that I am not missing anything by not having been with a circumcised man. One told me that she doesn't even know what to do with a circumcised penis during foreplay because there's nothing to move around or "play" with.

So... that's what MY girlfriends have to say about intact penises.

The trend is definitely changing. Given that everyone I know who has been with both (we'd have to add one gay man to my list) prefers intact, and intact is becoming more and more common (only 24% circumcise in my state - WA - as of 2005, I believe), that leads me to believe that as more and more people sleep with intact men, more and more people will prefer intact men.

It seems slightly disturbing to me also that your wife wants to impose her OWN sexual preference on her infant son... think of how it would sound if a father wanted to cut his daughter's genitals because he thought the uncut vulva was "gross."

How does she know that his future girl (or boy) friends will prefer circumcised? If your son wants to be circumcised later in life then he can always get circumcised later on if he's left intact. He can never become "uncircumcised" later in life if he is already cut.

I know one man who chose to be circumcised later in life and, according to him, the procedure wasn't bad. He doesn't even remember it thanks to the general anesthesia! He had plenty of pain meds during the healing time afterwards. He chose to be circumcised and yet was grateful that his parents left the decision up to him.

Contrast the story above with several other friends I have who are circumcised, furious with their parents, and can't do anything about it. At least they can't do anything that wouldn't take many many years, much pain, and they wouldn't get back nearly as much as they lost.

It's infinitely better to be an intact man who wants to be circumcised than a circumcised man who wants to be intact. One can get what he wants. The other had the choice taken away from him before he could even give consent. The choice as to whether or not to cosmetically alter a person's genitals should belong to the person whose genitals they are.

I know that I am very grateful that my mother-in-law decided to stay out of my dh's and my sex life. Dh is extremely grateful! I have friends who wish desperately that their mothers-in-law had stayed out of their sex lives...

love and peace.


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## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

Re: " it's gross ".

For most American women, a belief that the foreskin is gross is all in their culturally-based imagination, rather than based on extensive (or even any) personal experience. Sounds like this is the case for your wife ("shes never been around a natural one"). I don't know how she could be so adamant that it's gross when she seems to know nothing about it, but if you feel the need to convince her, you might suggest she have a look at some photos of intact men available on the Internet. Not sure if we can post direct links here, but considering some of the other images we have on this sites, I figure it should be all right. There are some very tasteful sites (non-pornographic) of intact men that are anything but gross, indeed quite attractive, and very eye opening to say the least, for someone who has never seen an intact adult male before.

http://www.circumstitions.com/Gallery.html.
http://www.naturalmanphotos.com/

(There are entry pages at each link before you get to the pictures.)

Re: how women will feel about it, have her read this article on how circumcision affects sex from the woman's point of view, by renowned women's physician Dr. Christiane Northrup:
http://mensightmagazine.com/Articles...p/lovecirc.htm

It can be challenging to consider not circumcising a son when all you've ever known is circumcision. It sounds like you know enough to know that this absolutely should not be done to your son, but your wife still hasn't gotten past feeling challenged by it, and is grasping as some very flimsy straws to try to argue for it. Just as we tell moms who come here whose husbands insist on circumcision - protect your son. At least you have plenty of time to gradually educate her. It is good you are getting informed now, and seeking support. We're here to help you every step of the way. Your son is depending on you.

Bravo! Gillian


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Well tell her to me {hi there if you're reading







} that the foreskin is an erogenous zone and to remove it is as foolish as removing any other erogenous zone.

And this is speaking as an intact man. It really, _really_ is erogenous.

And it isn't gross, either.

As for girlfriends...Well, the rate is in the mid-50s {%} at the moment and plunging by the day, so if girls are going to start picking boys upon those grounds then they are going to be severely limiting their selection. Even then he will still be fine with anyone from Latino countries, where it never happens to healthy boys.









Same with: Europe. China. Lots of places.

So even if that _were_ true {and it's not} he'd cope.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Congratulations, and welcome. I'm glad you've found us.









You've already gotten so many responses and lots of links to info. You have quite a few months yet and I think you have plenty of time to convince her.

Have you thought about restoring yourself? Perhaps that would be the best way to show her the difference and she might understand the value then.

And I almost hate to say it, but if you get down to the wire and she still won't budge, contact a lawyer and get some sort of injunction to prevent it. This will vary by what state your in whether it will even work or not.


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## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
I just wanted to say that I am pregnant with my first child, a boy







and I have been struggling with the decision of whether or not to circ. My sister just recently had a boy and didn't, but all of my friends think it is weird not to and so it has caused some confusion in my mind. After reading these articles, I have made a solid decision NOT to circ. Thank you so much for posting that information.

Welcome mister! Very glad to heard that.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

and congrats on the upcoming arrivial of your first child!

The default is leaving babies how they are born so to alter them there not only needs to be a real medical reason but both parents should agree. If not then baby stays the way he was born.
I would ask her if she really wants to hurt her baby so HIS penis will be tasteful to her and her friends? I would ask her if it's okay to alter your son's body to fit her and her friends' preference? Maybe it sounds harsh but really that is what it comes down to right since she knows there are no medical reasons to circumcise and it is a purely cosmetic surgery.


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## vaughnmama (May 18, 2007)

First of all, I want to say congratulations on becoming a Daddy soon AND for researching this topic and deciding to protect your son!!! That is so awesome! I wish we would have discovered the truth in time, the biggest regrets of our lives has been circumcising our 1st two sons. (If our new baby to be born in April is a boy, we will leave him intact!) In case you want to read it, I will PM (personal message) my story of regret to you instead of posting it right here, since it is long.(I wrote it as an article for a magazine.) In addition, there is a great thread stickied up above called "If you regret circumcising your sons, please post here." You might be able to pull some stories from there that might sway your wife.

Now the rest might sound harsh, but...
If you have a son, you have the legal and moral obligation to protect your son by every means necessary. Your wife's preference for how her baby's genitals should look is not a valid reason to circumcise. There are cases now of young men suing not only the doctor's and hospitals responsible for their circumcisions, but their parents as well. I expect this kind of litigation will only increase in the future as the true harm of circumcision becomes more widely known in this country. Your wife will not be able to claim that she was duped into believing it was the best thing to do by an unscrupulous doctor. She has been presented the facts by you. If she insists that a circumcision be performed without the consent of the child (which cannot be given before he is an adult,) then that decision is ethically and legally WRONG.

Hopefully, it will not come down to a confrontation between you two. I truly hope that she sees the light before it is too late. But if she doesn't, YOU cannot back down. Your child's bodily integrity, health, and well-being depends on you.


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

It may or may not be gross. That's a personal thing. There are parts of my body that I think are gross whose purposes I can't always figure out but alas, I don't think I'll be cutting them off. And that's just it. If I wanted to, it should be my choice. It''ll be your son's body. I was arrogant to get my son circ. and regret it. I was just at the point of figuring out it was probably not the best thing to do... and have since learned there is no reason to do it at birth.

Why not err on the side of conservatism? If someday either your son (if the baby is one) decides he wants it clipped or if it arises that for some strange medical reason (exceedingly rare) it needs to be cut, then deal with it then. Trust me, it is just as painful as a newborn as at any other age. You aren't saving him any pain. Ya see how it doesn't work the other way around though? It does not grow back. It can not be resewed on. Even if he decided to do some reconstruction surgery, that would not grow back the nerves. You can't take the decision back where as if you wait, he can make up his own mind.

Also, I know we don't always like to think of our children as someday having sexual lives much the same way they don't like to think of their parents as having one. Me personally, I want my kids to me as happy as they can be within healthy limits. I have robbed my son of experiencing what sounds like a more enjoyable sex life. That foreskin has many purposes. One of them is to facililate the act of sex in way that leads to less shafing and those very sensitive nerves really dig it. Yeah, yeah- it's weird to think like that but that is one of the purposes of a penis









I also think it is only common sense to not do it once you come to the realization there is no medical reason. It seems kind of vain to cut your son's penis based on what you think it "cute". If you are like that, why not just buy him cute outfits, get him nice haircuts, keep up on the dentist appointments and other such things.

I hope your wife reads here. I hope she tries really hard to hold her ground with an open mind and comes to the conclusion there is nothing she can say that holds up to logic and fairness.

Good luck to the both of you and congrds on the baby. It's a wild ride.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Congratulations! This may have been said already, I'm sorry if it is, <<<in a rush right now>>>

Have her read the regret thread. There are 433 post to date! She knows all the facts which means there is a huge possibility she will regret this for the rest of her life if it happens hopefully you'll get to take you WHOLE baby home! <<<My story is in that thread but I was ignorant. I can't imagine what my regret would be like if I knew what she knows







>>>

Good Luck!!!









~FW


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Good luck convincing her! And if she doesn't come round in time, JUST SAY NO!









It sounds like she's using the same arguments that are used to maintain the equally barbaric custom of cutting girls' labia off in Africa (among other places): "It looks much prettier this way, it's cleaner, and how is he / she supposed to get married if we don't cut these disgusting parts off?" Both sound just a crazy to me!

Intact penises aren't gross! My husband's penis is lovely!









If your son gets worried he's got a weird penis when the time comes, just send him to Europe as an exchange student or something. Here everybody is intact!


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## JohnathanDorley (Feb 9, 2008)

DivinDaddy,

First, I'd like to say congratulations!

I would also tell her that it's not fair on your son to circumcise him; it should be his choice whether or not he has a part of his body removed.

Plus, I would tell her that many men who were circumcised at birth came to regret it, either due to complications from the procedure or just because they feel a part of their body is missing, and the frustration of having something irreversable done to him without his consent. This is one of the most important reasons, I think.

You could also tell her that there are a lot of nerve endings in the foreskin which are permanently lost by circumcision.

Sorry if you've already told her these things.

Good luck.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

If your future son finds out it is a problem later, when he is dating, and wants to get circumcised at that point, then he can do so. Your wife should not make this decision for him. Plain and simple.

There is plenty time to do this later. No reason to do it as a child.

Regards


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I would ask her how she would feel about having part of her genitals cut off without her consent, because that's what she's wanting to do to the baby. I'd take it from a cutting off body parts is wrong angle.


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

I want you to make sure you at least find a 'foreskin friendly' doctor as well to be good anti-circ-write to doctors opposing circumcision and to nocirc asking them where your at even go to find your tribe.

I congratulate you on you becoming a daddy and I been around long enough to see doctors accept one signature sometimes only the mom signature so your best bet is to find a pedi that thinks like you also 'find out what her ob thinks' because her 'now ob ,future pedi or an on call ob/pedi at the hospital are likely the one's at risk to do the 'circ' so state your opinion & how you don't want it done but your wife does ask how to prevent it from happening because you don't want to take legal action-first word of legal will be automatic fear in docs ears -scares them..

That shall be the way they could 'try to 'help you change your wife mind' maybe see if you can call the hospital and have a pro-intact doctor come to you say we don't do those here or at least make sure she delivers at a hospital that doesn't perform circumcision because if she has an pro-intact pedi -and a hospital that doesn't perform them he will be more likely the way to prevent circ from happening -because longer waiting time equals she will get to know what she is afraid of .


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Have her read this:

http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

and this:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Hooray - a new baby! That's wonderful.

I know you've already gotten a lot of suggestions, so I'll keep mine short. Perhaps you could *gently* suggest that altering her son's genitals to fit her sexual preference is a little odd and not something he will probably appreciate when he is older. Good luck and congratulations.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Perhaps rather than discussing how awful the procedure itself is or the merits of the intact penis (because I'm guessing she may disagree with you on those points), you could focus on the choice issue.

It's your son's penis. If HE doesn't like his foreskin, HE can choose to have it removed.

Sometimes folks respond with the idea that it's better to have the operation before the child can remember it- and THAT is suggesting that it's better to hurt/cut/perform surgery on a BABY than on an adult. But then, I think exactly the opposite- babies should be protected and kept from pain (and open wounds in dirty diapers) whenever possible; adults can handle it if necessary.

There are a good number of men out there who regret the fact that they were circed. I don't know of any intact men that regret the fact that they weren't- and if they do, they can always have it done.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

if your son's natural given parts are gross, then I assume she also feels that a potential daghter's natural parts are gross too. No? Not the case? That's sexist and hurtful. I feel sorry for your poor child.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

I don't think she realizes that an intact grown man will bare his glans upon arousal. It looks no different than a cut penis when erect. Removal of the foreskin is permanently exposing the glans suggesting an erect looking penis while flaccid (soft). Honestly, it takes a twisted mind to want to see an adult aroused looking penis on a newborn. Its NORMAL for a baby to have his penis covered, protected. Thats the way a child's genitals are suppose to look. The only one who should see his glans is him and his partner when he is grown. Its so wrong to impose a sexual fetish on an innocent newborn. As Quirky ( a _brilliant_ intactivist who visits CAC periodically) once said, and I quote "Its not a fetish to prefer sexual parts the way nature intended them to be. The ones with the unnatural obsession are the ones that can't deal with a normal set of genitals and have to cut parts of them off to find them attractive.....Finding whole genitals of the opposite sex attractive is ENTIRELY natural, and how things are supposed to be. It's not possible to have a sexual fetish about normal genitals, because it's, well, normal......Not being able to find normal body parts attractive is unnatural, and I'd say that having to cut parts of them off and having to have a denuded penis in a partner would be the ones with the fetish." yeah simple minded me takes notes.








If she has any religious convections, PM me and I'll be happy to help you. We can't talk about religion on this forum.


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## Mammajamma (Feb 9, 2008)

I had my son circed even though it was against my better judgment- and I regret it to this day...


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

DivinDaddy, Welcome to the forum. I used to live in Orlampa too! (Actually Orlando)

It appears that your wife is the type that doesn't like to stand out as different. I can understand that. She is in her comfort zone in not being different. I have a slight tendency to be the opposite way, that is loud and proud in my differences and I don't care what other people think. I make my decisions based solely on what I think is right for me. For instance, while most of my friends are driving sport utes, I drive a ridicously impractical sports car.

Here is a factoid that may make your wife re-consider. The circumcision rate in Florida is practically in free fall. *The Florida circumcision rate for 2005 was 37%!* This is down from 57% in 2003 and who can guess what it will be for 2008? Certainly it is not going to take an abrupt about face. This will mean that 2 out of 3 of your son's classmates will not be circumcised. Certainly, circumcising a child this year will be a very different move and the child will stand out as different.

When we consider our perceptions of the circumcision rate, it is usually based on the circumcision rate around the time we were born or some 20 or 30 years ago. This is reality for us but our children's reality will be very different. Our children will be growing up in a world that circumcision is not regarded as normal. Imagine the distress a child could suffer when he realizes that part of his genitals are missing. In our age group, we had little chance of this because all of us were circumcised and we would not likely have ever seen a normal penis to realize something was missing. Even if we did notice a difference, since so many of our friends were also missing it, we would have thought them as different, not ourselves.

I'm wondering if your son realizes he is different than most of his classmates and is angry when he learns how it happened, will she be willing to take the entire blame? Will she be willing to have a frank discussion about how it came about and why she did it? Will she be willing to tell him you wanted to protect him and she went against your wishes? If she is not confident that she can do this, she should reconsider circumcising your son.

.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DivinDaddy* 
Her main thing is that she really thinks its "gross", her friends think its gross, shes never been around a natural one, and is worried his girlfriends will think its gross.

Congratulations for daddyhood!

First - why would anyone care what your adult friends think about your son's penis? Why would they even see it? So why care? It is none of their business!

Second. I highly recommendate you and your wife to go read around teenage boards. Just be ready for a shock - because what you will read is very foreskin friendly texts - coming from next generation. They are different. They have access to internet and information. It is easy to find blogs and message boards(unfortenately I cannot post links here)where teenagers talk positively about intact penises and boys as young as 15 allready restoring and feeling very angry about what was done to them. So your son will indeed live in a very different USA, his future dating partners will think very differently about the whole circumcision thing.

Ever thought of that?

As far as other reasons. I am European so the whole idea of scarring your child's genitals is sad.


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## mntnmom (Sep 21, 2006)

The no circ web site has pictures of "botched" circumcisions. If I wasn't already a believer in leaving my boys natural, THAT would have done it all by itself.

***** Tell her "There is NO measureable benefit to a VERY risky cosmetic surgery!!"
Almost 50% of American babies are left intact, and the numbers are well above 90% in Europe.

And Phoenix Rising is so right. Your wife needs to think about what her SON will say 15 yrs from now, not what her co-orkers will say now.


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## naturegirl7 (Jan 27, 2005)

Congrats on becoming a Daddy! And I just must say that I think it is awesome that you are already so involved as a parent and trying to protect your child already. You have a lucky babe in that respect.

she saw the video and still wants to cut! Oh my - you have a lot of work ahead of you. the actual act of circ'ing is horrifying - I have not watch the videos, worse during nursing school I had to attend a boy being mutilated....I can not even begin to describe the trauma it caused me, let alone that poor babe.

just keep the discussion open and hopefully in time, she will see reason. it is much more common than she realizes - maybe not our generation, but in the youn children and teens.

One angle I bring up to people when debating this topic - female genital mutilation that occurs abroad. I ask them if they support it, always a resounding no. Then I compare it in great detail to male circ'ing and make them tell me what the difference is. I mean, over there, female circ'ing is "normal" - it isn't considered female genital mutilation to them.... in both cases it is cruel, incredibly painful, disfiguring, traumatizing, will affect sexual health, etc.... It doesn't always sway people - but it always causes them to pause and think about it from another point of view.


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## elanorh (Feb 1, 2006)

Congratulations, DivinDaddy! (and, since I assume wife is reading this too - congratulations to both of you!)

Where do things stand now?

I think the reminder that the AAP doesn't recommend circumcision, and the fact that the rate is dropping to 50% or lower, depending on where one is in the USA, are both telling.

Does your wife know that the foreskin which is removed is then sold to cosmetic companies for use in facial creams?









DH and I have had two girls, no sons. When we decided not to circ, we weren't really informed - we thought that the foreskin was just a little flap of skin, but didn't see why it had to be removed (and our Ped is very opposed to circumcision, and told us about the AAP's lack of recommendation for circ). In the past year, I've learned a lot more about circumcision and what's involved.

Honestly, it explains some real challenges that dh and I have, sexually.







While it's nice to know what's caused our challenges -- that doesn't make it any more fun to HAVE those challenges.








There are lots of anecdotal stories of circ not causing any sexual problems -- but there's lots of research which shows what the foreskin's function is, and that shows that sometimes there are longterm sexual issues as a result of infant circumcision. I really wish that FIL and MIL had known to say "NO" to dh's circ. Can your wife accept the very real possibility that her ds would resent her (and you too) for circing him when he's older?? Does she want a DIL who feels sad when she looks closely at her husband's penis and sees the circ scar? Does she want to risk them having an unhappy sex life?

There are some good links here - the regrets thread would also be very good to check out. I'd recommend finding a Ped who is not pro-circ. And - a very large issue to continue to look at and discuss, is the risk of staph infection at the circ site, etc. for an infant.

The bottom line is that your son can always get a circumcision later, if he wants one. But until he's old enough to be *asking* for one, his genitals aren't really anyone else's business - especially adult friends of you/your wife. When he's older, if he does want a circ (which is highly unlikely especially once he figures out what the foreskin does for him and his partners







) - he can have adequate pain relief, and the person giving him the circ will be far more able to give a circ which won't be too tight etc., and won't cause as many sexual problems for him.

ETA:
In terms of whether his genitals are attractive and acceptable - the people that should matter to, are him and his sexual partners. I'm pretty sure that your wife is not expecting her son to prefer women who are 18-30 years older than him, as sexual partners. The girls his age are going to be familiar with, comfortable with (and frankly, attracted to) an intact penis, given the current trends.


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## MyBoysBlue (Apr 27, 2007)

Someone mentioned the Regret thread. Well there is also an Intact and No Problems thread. There are a few less posts 365. But I think a lot of people mention more than one person in their family that is Intact and OK. My DH and both DS's are intact and No Problems. As well as my Dad, FIL and BIL. Canada's Cir rates are much lower than the US. Here are Canadian stats if you are interested. In 2003 the national percentage was 13.9 percent. I don't have exact stats for what it is at now, 5 years later, but I heard it is less than 10 percent now.


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## SleeplessMommy (Jul 16, 2005)

Congrats!

Can you interview pediatricians without your wife around? A pro-intact pediatrician could make a very strong argument for keeping the baby intact.

Sadly, be very careful with what documents you or your wife sign in the hospital. You will need to be there continuously to make sure they do not try to talk her into it.

You have plenty of time to convince her that it is important to protect the baby from "cosmetic surgery". Once the baby is born, the protective instinct will be even stronger.


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## Organicavocado (Mar 15, 2006)

************************** (graphic) Try this too if she is so worried about his future girlfriends.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

She and her friends will be old ladies by the time your child is having sex... and he won't be having sex with old ladies! Their cultural preferences are irrelevant! Only the child's choice matters.


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## vaughnmama (May 18, 2007)

How's it going, DivinDaddy? Any progress convincing DW yet? Need anymore ideas?

Hope it's going well.


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## mamasophy (Mar 15, 2007)

Hope all is well Daddy. Not to be crude, but has your wife ever seen European porn? I say this because even as an intactivist, I had NEVER seen an intact man (being born in '66, it's rare for men my age or around it to be intact) erect. My dad is intact, but I didn't know it until I had my first child! My mom never mentioned it (but of course had my brothers all circ'd - another story). So I recently saw (blush) some porn from Germany and you know what? I COULDN'T TELL IF THE GUYS WERE CIRC'D! I got really curious and started looking really hard (LOL, blush) and really couldn't tell. Except when I saw one guy with a scar - that's the only way I figured it out- and it was only one. So my point is, that women in the US really don't know what they're saying when they say "he won't be able to get a blow job" intact, because as you can read from a few women here who didn't even know their husbands were intact until they saw them flaccid, IT LOOKS THE SAME! So maybe it's not the most scientific way to show someone, and I hope it's not too offensive to suggest, but watch some European porn! It really opened my (fully intactivist) eyes! Good luck, hope all is well.


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## Laggie (Nov 2, 2005)

He won't be able to get a blow job? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The foreskin makes it way more fun! Okay, maybe I can't say that on here, but... Personally, I find the circ'd penis much less appealing than the intact one.

When your son gets older, would you rather that he is able to ask you:

A: can I get circumcised when I'm 18?

or

B: why did you cut off part of my penis that I can never get back?


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## SleeplessMommy (Jul 16, 2005)

By the way, if you let us know what religion your wife is, we can provide you with pro-intact information. The arguments for intactness can be made very strongly for Catholic, Mormon, "other" Christian, Hindu and Unitarian.

We are not allowed to discuss religion here, _but we can PM you exactly what you need._


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Laggie* 
He won't be able to get a blow job? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. *The foreskin makes it way more fun!* Okay, maybe I can't say that on here, but... *Personally, I find the circ'd penis much less appealing than the intact one.*









:

That is so true!!!

In fact, those with a dh that is intact or restored and are contemplating circ'ing their ds makes me want to smack 'em up side the head for NOT SEEING JUST HOW LUCKY THEY ARE!!!!!


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

By Susan Peer

One Woman's View

If I talk to women about circumcision and they don't seem to get it,
then I make it personal. Sometimes I tell a story. (This probably
works best woman to woman.) I'll tell them to: -

Imagine that you are admitted to a hospital for some minor surgery.
On waking up from the anesthesia, you realize that your inner labia
and the hood over your clitoris have been cut off.

When you confront your doctor, he explains that the tissue that was
removed was "redundant" and not necessary for sexual functioning.

He goes on to say that you will be much easier to clean and have less
odor, there will be less chance of infection, and he felt that you
would look "better", more aesthetic.

He says that when he told all of the "risks" and "benefits" to your
family, they gave informed consent for the procedure.

How would you feel?

Now imagine that you were awake and resisting, but they did it
anyway.

If they don't get it right away, they usually will later, when they
are alone.

- Susan Peer


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

Very nice way to get them thinking in a personal way about RIC.

Thanks for sharing.

Regards


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## NettleTea (Aug 16, 2007)

Any update?


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## theresa_caine (Nov 13, 2005)

OP: Congrats on your pregnancy and for being so educated on circing. Your future children (male or female) are lucky!

I didn't have time to read all of the posts, so I forgive if what I'm giving has been stated already.

Has your wife read the 'regret' sticky. It's hard to read, but there is great information there.

Reading this on a mainstream messageboard clinched it for me. I wish that I could give the author credit:

We hope our baby doesn't have any birth defects."
except for aposthia (lack of foreskin) which we would sort of like. *(This is the one that really nailed it for me&#8230;it's a birth defect!)*

"We'd never submit our baby to a surgical procedure without a diagnosis."
except for circumcision, which doctors let us decide about.

"It is not OK to hurt babies."
except when they 'have to be' circumcised.

"We'd never unnecessarily place our baby at risk of infection or injury."
except to get him circumcised.

"We'd never permit healthy tissue to be removed from our baby."
unless it is his foreskin.

"It is our job to protect our baby from pain."
except from his circumcision.

"We must aid and comfort our baby when he is injured."
except during his circumcision which we'll pretend doesn't hurt.

"We'd never take the easy way out of caring for our baby."
unless it is a boy. Then we'll have his penis altered so we
won't have to take care of the great unknown: foreskin.

"We'd never allow anything to impair our baby's bonding with his mother."
except for the pain of circumcision.

"We want our baby to grow up happy with his body."
but we'll jeopardize his self-esteem by cutting the center of
his male body image: his penis.

"We'd never let our child feel robbed of something if we could prevent it."
except for his foreskin which we hold to be worthless
(and we don't care what he might think).

"We'd never place our child at a disadvantage where he could be ridiculed."
except we'll alter his penis so it doesn't look like or function
like the vast majority in the world.

"We wouldn't want our baby to doubt our commitment to him."
but we'll let a stranger cut off his foreskin, and we'll let
him grow up knowing that we couldn't or wouldn't protect him
from this invasion of his body.

"We'd never do anything to make our baby doubt our love."
except we'll have part of his body destroyed by circumcision.

"We'd never do anything to our baby just because it was done to us."
except we'll circumcise him so he'll be just like his Daddy.

"We don't hold with tribal markings just to make children feel part of a clan as they do in primitive cultures."
except we'll circumcise our boys in the (vain) hope that they'll
all look alike in the locker room.

"We would not compromise our baby just to bend to societal pressures."
except we'll circumcise him because the grandparents expect it,
and what would the neighbors say?

"We'd never impose our will on our child against his future wishes."
except we'll rush to circumcise him before he can even
formulate his wishes.

"We'd never compromise our baby's future happiness."
but we will remove an erogenous part of his body.

"We'd never make an irreversible decision to alter our child's appearance in a way he might one day regret, such as tattooing."
unless it is to alter the appearance of his penis in a way -we- want.

"We want our baby to grow up a -human- being."
but we'll teach him, by circumcising him, that human rights
don't amount to much.

"We'll love our baby in all his glory."
except for his foreskin which we'll have cut off and thrown
in the trash.

"God made our baby with love, care and wisdom."
except for his penis which needs to be 'fixed'.

"We hold that all parts of our baby's body are sacred."
except for his foreskin which is ours to alter as we will.

"It is wrong to deprive someone of a healthy part of their body."
unless it is the male foreskin. And, if you live in North
Africa, a girl's clitoris and labia minora.

I wish you both a safe and healthy pregnancy and delivery!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Theresa, thanks for posting that!


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Wow that was great; again thanks for posting that.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Theresa, again thanks for posting that.

DivinDaddy, do you have an update for us?


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## phdmama06 (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks for posting that, Theresa! I have never seen that before, but I am going to keep it on file for whenever I am talking to expectant parents about circ.


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

I'm married to an intact male.

Besides belonging to the man I love, there's nothing radically different between his penis and a circumsized one. It's not any less clean. He never smells down there (his feet are another story), and he's never had any medical issues because of it.

RIC isn't common here (BC) anymore, so it's just a bizarre notion to me to think women would find it "gross" or unappealing.

I actually prefer it over a circumsized penis because to me, it feels better when we're intimate. I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to type that, but obviously, sexual function is one of the primary uses of the penis, so I think I can say what I want about that.


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