# This is driving me crazy (neighbor vent)



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

We have the nicest neighbors -- our kids play well together, DH and I get along well with the parents, etc. But I get so frustrated when I see the freedom they allow their 2yo DS.

We live in a condo complex where all the garages open directly onto a parking lot, and their garage is always open, allowing the boy to wander out into the parking lot. The first few times I saw this happen I walked him home and alerted the parents, but they seemed unconcerned and the mom finally told me, "It's okay, he knows how far he's allowed to go," so I stopped intervening (even though he goes about 100 yards down the street, across a parking lot intersection, on his own). I'm always freaked out that I'm going to back over him when I back out of my garage.

Anyway, a few days ago I was outside with my dog, quite a ways down from our garages, when I saw the little boy walking along. That part wasn't unusual, but this time he had a spray bottle of floor cleaner with him and was spritzing the bushes and grass. I was out there for about 5 minutes before I finally heard the mom say, "DS, where are you?" and come out to look for him. Argh! Anything could have happened in that 5 minutes (and who knows how long he was out there before I went out) -- he could have been run over, kidnapped, ingested the floor cleaner, hurt himself and needed help -- he's only TWO!!

I can't really say anything to them -- they're aware of the situation and aren't concerned about it. They're very loving parents other than this one thing, and their 3yo DD is never unattended in the parking lot -- I'm not sure why the 2yo has more freedom, or maybe the girl just isn't as interested in wandering by herself. In any case, since I can't do anything about it, all I can do is vent my frustration here, so thanks for listening.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Ugh that is really tough to see stuff like that happening in front of you. FWIW, you are correct, that is completely a safety issue and I don't blame you for being worried sick.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

Honestly, this is something I'd call CPS about. 2 year olds shouldn't be let out to wander a neighborhood by themselves. I'd be really worried about running over him too.


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## CorasMama (May 10, 2002)

I would talk to them about it very directly. Next time you see him unsupervised in a dangerous way like that, walk him home again, and say something like, "I'm very concerned for his safety. I don't know if you've seen how fast people drive around here, and he's so short, SUVs can't see him." Or, "I thought I should warn you, I looked up on the sex offender registry, and there's [#] _right here in our neighborhood!!!_ and I knew you wouldn't want little Jimmy outside alone, knowing that."

If you drop several more hints like this, and this is still happening, then yeah, you might want to _think_ about calling cps.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

I think honesty is the best policy "Neighbor, I'm concerned about your DS being out alone - he's so little I fear accidentally backing over him with the car!"


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_betsy_* 
I think honesty is the best policy "Neighbor, I'm concerned about your DS being out alone - he's so little I fear accidentally backing over him with the car!"

^ Yeah, that!


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

But she has already walked him home a couple of times. This is why organizations like CPS are in place. I don't believe that CPS is only for the most devastating situations...I'd make a phone call.


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

Wow, that's a pretty tough situation. Usually I read things and automatically either think "call cps" or "they're over reacting" but this is hard.

On the one hand the parents are so loving other than this one thing, it would be a shame to call cps on them.

But on the other hand, would you feel tremendous guilt if someone (not even you) ran over the little boy accidently and he was seriously injured or worse? Would you feel that you didn't do enough to step in before he was hurt?

Plus, the carpet cleaner thing worries me. If he decided to drink it that would have been so horrible! Especially if his mom couldn't find him after.

Such a sad situation, and I'm not really sure what to advise you to do. I guess just think all possible outcomes through, and decide from there. Sorry I don't really have anything to offer.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
I was out there for about 5 minutes before I finally heard the mom say, "DS, where are you?" and come out to look for him. Argh! Anything could have happened in that 5 minutes (and who knows how long he was out there before I went out) -- he could have been run over, kidnapped, ingested the floor cleaner, hurt himself and needed help -- he's only TWO!!

I assume he stays on the sidewalk except for crossing the parking lot intersection? I don't like the idea of a 2 year old crossing a parking lot intersection but other than that ...

kidnapped -- fantastically rare

ingested floor cleaner -- I wonder if you were really that worried about it because you watched him play with it for as you said, 5 minutes!

hurt himself and needed help -- yes, they do skin their knees and fall apart and want to be carried home at that age, and so it's good to check on them, which apparently mom was.

Maybe I would call CPS and maybe I wouldn't. But I would encourage you to stay focused on him leaving the sidewalk to cross the parking lot and not beat this mom up about things that are extreme rare events.

*Anything can happen at the other end of the house, too, in 5 minutes.*


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## macca333 (Jun 14, 2008)

2 years old is far too young to be left on his own outside, no matter how street savvy you think they are- If you are friendly I would say something, it may feel akward but at the end of the day you are probably saving a life.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Maybe instead of calling cps you could call the police the next time he's out wandering? If someone with a uniform and a badge actually brought the child home, maybe that would impact the mom a little more than just a neighbor, but wouldn't involve having to turn her into CPS at this point.


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

The parking lot situation is not something I'd be comfortable with, but I don't think this is CPS worthy, either. Is he actually running around in the parking lot, or just near it?

I would say something about being afraid of running over him in your car. It's how you feel, and the main concern that directly impacts you.

I understand how you feel. I mean, it drives me absolutely bonkers to see my baby neice in her carseat with the strap so loose it is _falling off her shoulder_, and when I say something about it to SIL, she just kind of rolls her eyes. And I would NEVER take a baby out of a carseat with moving traffic, but I have friends who have out of desperation, or aren't as vigilant about carseats. But they're wonderful parents.

In general, though, I am probably more laid-back than others. I will stand back and watch 2 yo ds climb up something a little scary in the playground while another parent kind of hovers underneath him... but I know his physical abilities, and I know that if I stay back, he will hesitate and back off if it is too much for him, but if I am standing there, he will just do it without being careful. Yes, he could fall, and he does fall and get skinned up, and I'm there to comfort him. But I think giving kids space to do things on their own, even when they might get hurt is a good thing. But I know others think I'm neglectful at those times... so, there are certainly different comfort levels with things.

And I won't even mention the number of times ds2 has managed to get ahold of something potentially dangerous that he shouldn't have, that I don't discover for 5 minutes.


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## OhDang (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmh23* 
Honestly, this is something I'd call CPS about. 2 year olds shouldn't be let out to wander a neighborhood by themselves. I'd be really worried about running over him too.

You would tear apart a family just because they have different boundries than you??


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## kangaroomum25 (Jun 21, 2007)

I think he'd be much more likely to be abused or neglected worse in a foster family - besides the emotional damage of being taken away from his family.


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## OhDang (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kangaroomum25* 
I think he'd be much more likely to be abused or neglected worse in a foster family - besides the emotional damage of being taken away from his family.

AGREED!


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OhDang* 
You would tear apart a family just because they have different boundries than you??

I don't think they would take the child away from his family if this is the only issue. CPS rarely takes children over small things. Instead, they'd help the parents realize that a 2 year old isn't safe outside without supervision. I know for a fact that I can't see a 2 year old behind ANY car, so it is a real risk. Also, I wonder why the 3 year old isn't allowed to wander with her brother. Just seems odd, so yeah I'd call CPS!


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## OhDang (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmh23* 
I don't think they would take the child away from his family if this is the only issue. CPS rarely takes children over small things. Instead, they'd help the parents realize that a 2 year old isn't safe outside without supervision. I know for a fact that I can't see a 2 year old behind ANY car, so it is a real risk. Also, I wonder why the 3 year old isn't allowed to wander with her brother. Just seems odd, so yeah I'd call CPS!

Well I know of people who have had cps called for little things and had their kids taken away even if were only for a few days or a week.
i hate when people are cps crazy







:


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## textbookcase (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_betsy_* 
I think honesty is the best policy "Neighbor, I'm concerned about your DS being out alone - he's so little I fear accidentally backing over him with the car!"

Ditto this!


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OhDang* 
You would tear apart a family just because they have different boundries than you??

CPS does not take children away for something like this. In the cases where children were taken away there may have been more than one call, and if there was more than one call, than the children are rightly being taken away.

Having my children taken away for 2 weeks would tear my family apart far less than a dead or missing child would.

CPS can usually require parenting classes, etc. for instances like this and IMO, a loving mother who is sweet and gentle but lets her 2 y.o. roam free outside without borders shouldn't be considered and _otherwise good mother_. That is neglect, a form of child abuse...something CPS should be called for.


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## tarajean56 (May 2, 2007)

You are in a really tough situation. I'd probably write her a letter, since I can get all my thoughts out that way, and make sure it has the right tone. I get really nervous in face to face confrontations and always come off the wrong way.

I think its worth risking the friendship for this little guy's safety.


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

If I was in your situation I would call 911 and say "There is a little boy that wanders around outside ALONE- and he is now crossing the parking lot, carrying a bottle of CARPET CLEANING CHEMICALS"

I am NOT a fan of CPS or 911 unless it's a HUGE violation situation. I am, however one for public safety and "Villiage Rasing a Child" mentality. Mom is a good mom? Then she needs to learn some boundaries.

Call CPS and tell them that you almost ran over your neighbor's UNATTENDED 2yr old in the parking lot. Call the COPS and let them be the "bad guys"

And honestly- what's worse CPS and the cops asking questions... telling this family to change or a dead child???


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

I think if you would really call CPS, you should tell the mother that. Just your threat will probably make her watch him.

I don't know what I would do, but calling CPS without the warning doesn't seem right to me. Some people do not pick up on subtle clues, but if they heard, "If I see your baby out in the street with poison again I'm going to call the authorities" they will damn well hear that.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *janasmama* 
CPS does not take children away for something like this. In the cases where children were taken away there may have been more than one call, and if there was more than one call, than the children are rightly being taken away.

Having my children taken away for 2 weeks would tear my family apart far less than a dead or missing child would.

CPS can usually require parenting classes, etc. for instances like this and IMO, a loving mother who is sweet and gentle but lets her 2 y.o. roam free outside without borders shouldn't be considered and _otherwise good mother_. That is neglect, a form of child abuse...something CPS should be called for.

I agree 100%. I'm not so CPS crazy. If the child was 5 or older, maybe even a tall 4 year old, I wouldn't suggest calling. But this is a TWO YEAR OLD! I let my 3 year old and 1 year old in our fenced backyard by themselves, but this kid is wandering! 2 year olds have no sense of danger. They won't get that they shouldn't be behind a car that's running or get out of the street if a car is coming.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I wouldn't call CPS. My daughter had never slept away from me and was still nursing frequently at 2. Even being taken from me for a relatively short while would have been devastating for her. Even a child who is not co-sleeping and breastfeeding would be desperately traumatized by something like that. I just don't think it's bad enough to take that kind of chance. And no children aren't taken away permanently for something like that but I've heard of children being taken away temporarily for relatively minor things.

I'd talk to the parents and say you're afraid you might back over him. Have any other neighbors talked about this? If they hear it from more than one person it might sink in more.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OhDang* 
Well I know of people who have had cps called for little things and had their kids taken away even if were only for a few days or a week.
i hate when people are cps crazy







:

I don't know what I would do in the OP's situation, especially if I had talked to my neighbor and they still did it.

But I do think that a few days away from home would do less harm than being able to wander around unattended could.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

I think it's superlame to call CPS so you can avoid personal responsibility instead of telling the neighbor "I am going to call CPS if you don't watch him better" and having to actually deal with the confrontation. CPS is for severe abuse and neglect. The *threat* of CPS is for stuff like this. Man up and tell her yourself.

Remember, CPS has very limited resources. You get a file opened on this lady, you get a social worker out to see her, that's time that isn't being used to help some shaken baby or child stuffed in a closet.


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama* 
I think it's superlame to call CPS so you can avoid personal responsibility instead of telling the neighbor "I am going to call CPS if you don't watch him better" and having to actually deal with the confrontation. CPS is for severe abuse and neglect. The *threat* of CPS is for stuff like this. Man up and tell her yourself.

Remember, CPS has very limited resources. You get a file opened on this lady, you get a social worker out to see her, that's time that isn't being used to help some shaken baby or child stuffed in a closet.

this.


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## ebethmom (Jan 29, 2002)

I would talk to the parents again. Tell them your concerns. Remind them of all the toddlers and small children who have been run over recently. (Steven Curtis Chapman's daughter, several other posts from earlier this summer . . . it just seems like we had dozens of these stories in the news recently.)

Ask if they have some sort of solution for the wandering. If they can't think of any, brainstorm with them. A low-tech alarm for the door?

I takes courage to talk to someone face to face, especially about something as personal as child care decisions. But it can help build a relationship. Calling the authorities and telling on someone will only tear the relationship down.


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama* 
I think it's superlame to call CPS so you can avoid personal responsibility instead of telling the neighbor "I am going to call CPS if you don't watch him better" and having to actually deal with the confrontation. CPS is for severe abuse and neglect. The *threat* of CPS is for stuff like this. Man up and tell her yourself.

Remember, CPS has very limited resources. You get a file opened on this lady, you get a social worker out to see her, that's time that isn't being used to help some shaken baby or child stuffed in a closet.

Ouch. That's some harsh reality. I was originally undecided after this, but after reading your post and after reading another one that mentioned how traumatized the child would be from being torn away from his family, I have to agree it would be a mistake to call CPS at this time.

I'd probably go talk to the neighbor again and express your concerns a bit more... umm... firmly? Be sure to explain how you worry about running him over when backing up, and you think she really needs to keep more of an eye on her child.

If that doesn't work, I would then say if it doesn't stop you're calling CPS. If you don't want to say that, you can always send an anon letter to her, letting her know if it continues CPS will be called.


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:

Some Basic Information About Child Abuse And Neglect
*Sometimes parents take actions that create a danger to children in the home. Failure to protect children also may result in their being abused or neglected. There are several types of abuse and neglect*:

* Neglect exists when parents, guardians or custodians place children at *substantial risk of harm by not providing children with* adequate food, clothing, shelter, *supervision* or medical care. Neglect includes:

Quote:

Any individual may call CPS to report that a child is *not receiving adequate care or protection* or that a family might benefit from services.

Quote:

the report is then ranked according to its seriousness and a decision is made about how quickly the investigation will begin.
This came from an Arizona state CPS website. I omitted the other forms of abuse and neglect just for word count purposes.

The OP shouldn't have to confront anyone if she doesn't feel it's appropriate. Some people just don't have that type of demeanor and it could cause a potential safety issue for her and her family to threaten someone. Sometimes things like this are better left anonymous.

And I don't believe that anyone who feels a child is in danger should ever minimize the situation to the fact that CPS is too busy and think the incidence isn't valuable enough for them to pay attention to.

As above, cases are ranked in priority so a shaken baby or severely beaten child is going to be seen and taken care of before this child will be so calling CPS isn't stealing time or safety from any other child.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

I am shocked by the posts that are saying things like a few hours/days away from parents is better than a dead child. OMG!

Being taken away from parents by total strangers is completely terrifying. I would never call CPS and even risk a child going through that unless I was sure that every other option was exhausted.

I agree that 2 is probably too young to be unsupervised around a parking lot. But I have not seen the area you are talking about or met the child and family you are talking about so it's hard to judge.

My DD WAS very safe around roads and parking lots when she was 2. She always stayed on the sidewalk and would wait for a hand to cross a street or parking lot. My MIL was completely terrified by me letting her run up and down a shopping center sidewalk at this age (we were waiting to get into a restaurant) and lectured me about it "because she is 2 and 2 year olds randomly dart out into traffic." Well, not my kid. FTR I was always supervising her at this age. No unsupervised playing in an unfenced front yard BECAUSE of the street. But by age 3 she was OK to do so.

If you do not want to talk to your neighbor directly maybe you could approach the problem through the condo's homeowners association? Maybe some new rules could be set in place with clear consequences. Something like do to safety issues all children under the age of X must be accompanied by an adult in the condo's community spaces. Penalties could be a small fine. Repeat offenders will be reported to XYZ. It would be a more community based way to deal with the problem.

I just don't see this as a CPS kind of issue yet.


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## lovemysunshine (Jul 13, 2005)

We had an almost identical situation here when we moved in (minus the floor cleaner). The neighbors also had a teen girl and 2 other boys ages 3 and 5, in addition to the wandering 2 yo. I think they sometimes (wrongly) assumed the other boys were keeping an eye on him.

Numerous neighbors mentioned it to the HOA, who then said all children under 12 should be supervised by their parents. No change except for the day or 2 after the newsletter. I was constantly worried about backing over him as well since our garages don't have great visibility as they're narrow.

I did not call CPS, honestly that never occurred to me in this situation. He's now almost 5 and is actually outside alone less than before. I'm not sure why the change, except that his siblings are inside more playing video games or at friends' houses, so he stays in more too.

Good luck with it; it is a really difficult situation to be in.


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## lovemysunshine (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ebethmom* 
I would talk to the parents again. Tell them your concerns. Remind them of all the toddlers and small children who have been run over recently. (Steven Curtis Chapman's daughter, several other posts from earlier this summer . . . it just seems like we had dozens of these stories in the news recently.)


That might help. We had 2 occur in our city in the past year and my DH knew the 2 parents involved in 1 of them. What was obviously devastating for the family who lost their son, is also a nightmare for the woman who hit the child. Would this wake them up and make it easier to bring up again?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *janasmama* 
The OP shouldn't have to confront anyone if she doesn't feel it's appropriate. Some people just don't have that type of demeanor and it could cause a potential safety issue for her and her family to threaten someone. Sometimes things like this are better left anonymous.

I don't think the OP has to choose between behaving in a confrontational, threatening way -- and anonymously calling CPS. Other posters are suggesting a third option that wouldn't have to kill the neighborly relationship.

I think it would be way more effective for her to do what other posters are suggesting, and tell the parents how scared she is that she or someone else might back over the child, and provide information about how sadly common these kinds of accidents are.

I realize that in today's mobile society, it's no longer second nature to think in terms of nurturing long-term friendships with our neighbors. But we never know when we might hit gold -- it doesn't make sense to be in a big hurry to alienate people.


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## whalemilk (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama* 
I think it's superlame to call CPS so you can avoid personal responsibility instead of telling the neighbor "I am going to call CPS if you don't watch him better" and having to actually deal with the confrontation. CPS is for severe abuse and neglect. The *threat* of CPS is for stuff like this. Man up and tell her yourself.

Remember, CPS has very limited resources. You get a file opened on this lady, you get a social worker out to see her, that's time that isn't being used to help some shaken baby or child stuffed in a closet.

I agree with this. Minor crap is meant to be handled by neighbors, in the community, not tattled to the authorities and delegated.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama* 
I think it's superlame to call CPS so you can avoid personal responsibility instead of telling the neighbor "I am going to call CPS if you don't watch him better" and having to actually deal with the confrontation. CPS is for severe abuse and neglect. The *threat* of CPS is for stuff like this. Man up and tell her yourself.

Remember, CPS has very limited resources. You get a file opened on this lady, you get a social worker out to see her, that's time that isn't being used to help some shaken baby or child stuffed in a closet.

I second this







:


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Thanks for all the replies! I'm not planning to call CPS on these people. I will try talking to the mom again, in a more direct (but gentle) way.

pigpokey -- there's only one small section of the parking lot that even has a sidewalk. Every great once in a while the little boy will step up on the grass or sidewalk, but he's almost always directly in the street/parking lot. He plays on the speed bump, runs out from between parked cars, stands directly behind my car as I'm starting it up to back out, runs right up to my car when it's in motion because he wants to say hi, etc. Like most 2-year-olds, he just doesn't have the critical thinking skills necessary to safely navigate a parking lot on his own.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
I am shocked by the posts that are saying things like a few hours/days away from parents is better than a dead child. OMG!
I just don't see this as a CPS kind of issue yet.


Who said a few hours away from a parent is better than a dead child?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Who said a few hours away from a parent is better than a dead child?

See post #19, 2nd paragraph.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
See post #19, 2nd paragraph.

Oh. Ack. I have a headache and missed that one. It actually says having a child taken away for two weeks, not for a few hours, but it still seems overly dramatic. Still, it would be truly and terribly traumatic for my daughter to be taken away from us for two weeks, and it would have been much more so when she was 2. Traumatic enough she'd need counseling. I really think this is the kind of thing people can handle between themselves rather than involving the authorities.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kangaroomum25* 
I think he'd be much more likely to be abused or neglected worse in a foster family - besides the emotional damage of being taken away from his family.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *OhDang* 
AGREED!

I'll give you the emotional damage, but not the abusive foster family. The very vast majority of foster families are kind, loving people doing a damn difficult job, and they don't need to be accused of abuse by people who don't even know.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

I'M SORRY I TOLD YOU TO MAN UP

it was rude


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Who said a few hours away from a parent is better than a dead child?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
See post #19, 2nd paragraph.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Oh. Ack. I have a headache and missed that one. It actually says having a child taken away for two weeks, not for a few hours, but it still seems overly dramatic. Still, it would be truly and terribly traumatic for my daughter to be taken away from us for two weeks, and it would have been much more so when she was 2. Traumatic enough she'd need counseling. I really think this is the kind of thing people can handle between themselves rather than involving the authorities.

Hi, Poster #19 here....I was referring to another post before mine about a child being taken away for two weeks and the fact that it would tear a family apart. I didn't say it was better, I said the child being taken away would tear me apart far less then having the child hit by a car, thus the possibility of dying. No drama, just real things that happen in the type of situation that is being discussed.

The fact is that the OP'er is talking about how there are no sidewalks and how this 2 yo. is behind her car when she starts it to back out, etc, etc.
I'm not sure how much the OP'er is around her home but this is only what she sees....who knows how many other times he is out unsupervised.

I agree that there is more than one way to handle the situation...like talking to the apartment manager etc. I mentioned CPS because the OP'er said in her original post that she couldn't do anything about this situation and that she had already confronted the mother.

I'm not a crazy CPS caller, I've never called them in my life and I would appreciate someone approaching me (like the OP'er has) before they decided to call for whatever reason they felt appropriate but...it is an option, that's all.

And I don't think that CPS just takes kids away for something like this...They have standards like wanting to keep the family safely together.

But, IMO emotional trauma from being taken away for days, not being to nurse as a two-year old, etc. can't be compared to the damage that would be done from a car vs. toddler accident or the other things that have been mentioned as a possibility.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
The first few times I saw this happen I walked him home and alerted the parents, but they seemed unconcerned and the mom finally told me, "It's okay, he knows how far he's allowed to go," so I stopped intervening (even though he goes about 100 yards down the street, across a parking lot intersection, on his own).

snip

I was out there for about 5 minutes before I finally heard the mom say, "DS, where are you?" and come out to look for him.

I'm wondering, since the Mom did look for him that time if she was being defensive when she talked to you. I could see a parent saying that in a MYOB way.

Also you saw him for about 5 minutes so maybe he hadn't been outside much longer than that.

Not that the little boy shouldn't be supervised more, but I know that 2 year olds can wander pretty far in a just a few minutes and if the parents are working around the garage or yard they might be losing track of him.

I think if I say him wandering, I'd bring him back and hand him to his parents, maybe telling them that you were worried since you were backing the car up etc.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama* 
I'M SORRY I TOLD YOU TO MAN UP

it was rude









No problem -- I figured that your sentiment wasn't directed at me specifically, but rather at someone who would call CPS over an issue like this rather than talking with the neighbor in person.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marybethorama* 
I'm wondering, since the Mom did look for him that time if she was being defensive when she talked to you. I could see a parent saying that in a MYOB way.

Also you saw him for about 5 minutes so maybe he hadn't been outside much longer than that.

Not that the little boy shouldn't be supervised more, but I know that 2 year olds can wander pretty far in a just a few minutes and if the parents are working around the garage or yard they might be losing track of him.

I think if I say him wandering, I'd bring him back and hand him to his parents, maybe telling them that you were worried since you were backing the car up etc.

No, it's definitely not that he just accidentally wanders off when they're not paying attention -- they just don't have a problem with him being out there by himself. Even when they are out there with him and know that he's in the street riding his scooter or whatever, they'll go back inside the house for like 10 minutes at a time before checking on him (and there's no visibility to the parking lot from inside our houses). So it's definitely not just something that happens occasionally when the boy is able to get past a parent's watchful eye; it's just that they have different standards than I do when it comes to how much freedom to allow their kids.

Which makes this whole thing harder -- on one hand, who am I to tell someone that their standards aren't good enough, but on the other hand, I'm so freaked out that I'm going to inadvertantly harm this little boy who just doesn't know enough to be out there alone.


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
No problem -- I figured that your sentiment wasn't directed at me specifically, but rather at someone who would call CPS over an issue like this rather than talking with the neighbor in person.









But you said you've already talked to them about this situation so why wouldn't people suggest that you call a child protection agency. That would seem sort of expected.

Plus, you mentioned that you have seen this happen 4 times. 2 times is a coincidence, 3 times is a pattern.

Also, I'm curious why most posters here believe CPS is only for severe abuse...no where can I find that CPS says to only call in severe instances. The problem is is that neglecting to supervise can turn into severe abuse in a matter of seconds. Most people know that abuse/neglect grows exponentially over a period of time, sometimes just a short time; why wait until it becomes so severe that the child's health and/or life is in danger?

It's kind of like noticing red flags and then doing something about it instead of waiting for 'just one more time.'

And if CPS _should_ only be called for severe abuse, then can someone define severe abuse?

I'll help with that: if you look at a law dictionary, the terms that are mentioned for severe abuse include things like: disfigurement, torture, substantial risk of death, loss or impairment of body parts or organs and intense emotional anguish.

I'm not saying that this is the case (although I do believe there is a good risk of death by leaving a 2 y.o. child unattended in a parking lot.) with this person but I don't think that we should lead people to believe that CPS is only for severe abuse. I would hope that CPS would catch a child before the severe abuse happened.


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Even when they are out there with him and know that he's in the street riding his scooter or whatever, they'll go back inside the house for like 10 minutes at a time before checking on him (and there's no visibility to the parking lot from inside our houses). So it's definitely not just something that happens occasionally when the boy is able to get past a parent's watchful eye; it's just that they have different standards than I do when it comes to how much freedom to allow their kids.

Which makes this whole thing harder -- on one hand, who am I to tell someone that their standards aren't good enough, but on the other hand, I'm so freaked out that I'm going to inadvertantly harm this little boy who just doesn't know enough to be out there alone.

This isn't standards it's neglect. Plain and simple. If you fear at all that you could inadvertently harm a child b/c of their own parents standards....then you can be sure the child is being neglected. And because this little boy doesn't know enough to be out there alone....someone needs to be his voice.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I appreciate your perspective, janasmama.

For me, it's not that I think CPS only exists to handle cases of extreme abuse, it's that a call to CPS could potentially have very serious ramifications for a family, up to and including having their children removed from the home. So, as a CPS caller, I would need to be okay with whatever outcome occurs if I call to report someone. In this case, I wouldn't be okay with all possible outcomes, so I'm going to talk more explicitly about my concerns with the mom instead of involving anyone else.

ETA: Not to ruin my own point, but in your post you mentioned that I said that this has happened 4 times -- it's actually happened way more than that; I see him out there several times a week, and that's been the case since at least February.


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

I'm glad you are going to talk with her again...I think that is an excellent choice.









I hope you will update us when you do since I'm sure we'll all be anxious to hear about the outcome.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

The reason that people have a problem with the idea of calling CPS is that a CPS call can result in the child being removed from the home, which is traumatic by itself, and can also result in sexual assault or other abuse in foster care.

It's totally awesome for you if you live in a jurisdiction where that would never happen, but 1) CPS is local and your experience doesn't apply to everyone and 2) while the majority of CPS workers are normal people doing their job, there are evil people working there, just like you'd find in ANY position where people have power, particularly over children - plus people are human and have bad days and make mistakes, and in our culture there is a bias towards removal of the child being the less bad of two bad choices, that is only held in check by lack of resources.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama* 
The reason that people have a problem with the idea of calling CPS is that a CPS call can result in the child being removed from the home, which is traumatic by itself, and can also result in sexual assault or other abuse in foster care.

Please read post 41 before you cast aspersions on a whole group of people.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
No, it's definitely not that he just accidentally wanders off when they're not paying attention -- they just don't have a problem with him being out there by himself. Even when they are out there with him and know that he's in the street riding his scooter or whatever, they'll go back inside the house for like 10 minutes at a time before checking on him (and there's no visibility to the parking lot from inside our houses). So it's definitely not just something that happens occasionally when the boy is able to get past a parent's watchful eye; it's just that they have different standards than I do when it comes to how much freedom to allow their kids.

Wow!

Now that is totally another thing. That would be way outside my comfort zone. I see why you're worried.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

I would keep on at them. Every single time that you see him out there, I'd walk him back. EVERY TIME.That's likely to bring their attention to the fact that what they're doing isn't acceptable more clearly than anything else. I'd also bring it to the attention of the apartment manager and ask them who you should contact: failing that, I'd consider contacting CPS anonymously, describing the situation and asking who they suggest you report it to. It could be that there's another agency you aren't aware of.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

There's another option I thought of. I have a friend whose husband is a police officer, and I'm really think if he were asked, he'd have no problem driving by every so often till he sees the kid out, and then making a friendly stop, taking the child to the parents, and explaining the safety issue, and that he'd just treat it as an education thing rather than a CPS thing. Maybe if you called the police department and asked if someone could handle it in that way it would take care of the problem without causing further problems.


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## whalemilk (Jul 11, 2008)

The relative rate of abuse in foster homes is somewhat higher, as I recall. Foster fathers in particular (like step fathers) are more likely to commit sexual abuse than biological fathers. Statistics /=/ "aspersions." And "more likely" /=/ "they all do."


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## Mom2Joseph (May 31, 2006)

If you have talked to the parents before I would consider calling the police the next time I saw the child out wandering alone.

Not only could the child lose his life being run over, but it would ruin the lives of the family and the person who did the running over, possibly through no fault of their own.

This is consistent neglect. If none of these worked then I would call CPS.


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2Joseph* 
If you have talked to the parents before I would consider calling the police the next time I saw the child out wandering alone.

Not only could the child lose his life being run over, but it would ruin the lives of the family and the person who did the running over, possibly through no fault of their own.

This is consistent neglect. If none of these worked then I would call CPS.

The police isn't going to be a way around CPS. If the police are called, they will simply call CPS themselves.


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## mumm (May 23, 2004)

WOW! This has been an eye opening thread for me. I bet my neighbors think I am a neglectful parent also.

My kids play alone unsupervised in the road (alright a quiet, residential road, but still cars sometimes come zooming down.), in the yard and even with water. I sometimes leave my 13 month old in the back yard while I run in the house for something (but not if there is water in the kiddie pool.) I let my kids play on the trampoline alone, but not with their friends.

That family is working within the boundaries they feel comfortable with. I wouldn't be concerned about kidnapping, it is so rare. Maybe they have a way of seeing that you don't know about? I can see into the front yard from the back of my house because I can see the reflection in a framed picture. I can hear what my kids are doing. When/if something seems fishy I can intervene or just watch more carefully while something plays itself out.

You don't know if that was a carefully scrubbed out bottle with water in it.

_Should I call CPS because my neighbor never leaves her kid alone for a second and hovers over her and directs every movement/decision/thought she makes? She'll never learn to think for herself, make her own decisions, etc and will really get into trouble later._ That is sarcasm, folks!


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 

That family is working within the boundaries they feel comfortable with.

How old are your kids? Do you think its ok for a two yr old to be playing in a parking lot, behind cars wanting to back out, etc, with no parents or even sibs around to supervise?

If that child ends up getting run over because someone didnt see him....should that just be considered an unfortunate "accident", or a preventable situation?

You say you dont leave your toddler in the back alone with water in the pool....thats interesting....i'm not sure there is so much difference in a pool and a parking lot full of cars....both are dangerous situations for young kids to be in w/o supervision.

If this child gets hit by a car, who is to blame? If the parents could have prevented it, shouldnt they be held liable? And isnt it better to prevent that situation from even occuring?

Katherine


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:

The police isn't going to be a way around CPS. If the police are called, they will simply call CPS themselves
Thats not true everywhere.

Around here, a cop would bring the child home and probably lecture the parents on keeping the kid safe.

If, the next time the OP sees the baby out, she picks up the phone, calls the cops (i wouldnt call 911, but the regular number), and explains the situation, they would probably swing by. CPS takes longer to get there.

Katherine


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## I-AM-Mother (Aug 6, 2008)

Here's what I gathered from you:

1. You *like*your neighbors and find them to be *very loving* people. You and your partner get along well with them, and your children play well together.

2. When you alerted the parents about their sons behavior, his mother told you *she trusts her son* because *he knows his boundaries*. So, you left it alone.

3. A few days ago you saw him with what looked to be a bottle of floor cleaner and was spraying the grass for about five minutes before the mother came looking for him. In that five minutes anything could have happened.

(How many times have this happened each to us? We rounded the corner just to find ____ in our child's hands? Despite how well we've baby proofed our home or the fact that they were out of our sight for less than a minute?)

If *your gut* tells you they are loving people who loves their children, believe it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
We have the nicest neighbors -- our kids play well together, DH and I get along well with the parents, etc. But I get so frustrated when I see the freedom they allow their 2yo DS.

We live in a condo complex where all the garages open directly onto a parking lot, and their garage is always open, allowing the boy to wander out into the parking lot. The first few times I saw this happen I walked him home and alerted the parents, but they seemed unconcerned and the mom finally told me, "It's okay, he knows how far he's allowed to go," so I stopped intervening (even though he goes about 100 yards down the street, across a parking lot intersection, on his own). I'm always freaked out that I'm going to back over him when I back out of my garage.

Anyway, a few days ago I was outside with my dog, quite a ways down from our garages, when I saw the little boy walking along. That part wasn't unusual, but this time he had a spray bottle of floor cleaner with him and was spritzing the bushes and grass. I was out there for about 5 minutes before I finally heard the mom say, "DS, where are you?" and come out to look for him. Argh! Anything could have happened in that 5 minutes (and who knows how long he was out there before I went out) -- he could have been run over, kidnapped, ingested the floor cleaner, hurt himself and needed help -- he's only TWO!!

I can't really say anything to them -- they're aware of the situation and aren't concerned about it. They're very loving parents other than this one thing, and their 3yo DD is never unattended in the parking lot -- I'm not sure why the 2yo has more freedom, or maybe the girl just isn't as interested in wandering by herself. In any case, since I can't do anything about it, all I can do is vent my frustration here, so thanks for listening.


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## mumm (May 23, 2004)

I can't quite picture the parking lot/garage. Parking for 4 cars? 40 cars? 400? If it is 4 that is very different than 40. The kid isn't a young 2 if he is zooming around on a scooter-that takes balance and skill a 24 month old usually doesn't posses. Clearly a dead child is not an acceptable outcome for givinf our children freedom.

I let my kids play unsupervised in the (unfenced) yard much earlier than anyone I know. I also let them use the trampoline unsupervised and let them swim with just a buddy at young age. BECAUSE I know them, their comfort levels/boundaries and how far they are willing (or unwilling) to push themselves out of that comfort level. I don't have daring kids. I don't have socially out going kids. I have kids who are coordinated and plan ahead, who mostly understand consequences. We can't however, take all the possibilities for bad things to happen out of the equation. And being too careful has other repercussions.

I certainly hope my neighbors aren't debating calling cps because I let my 7 year old take the baby around the neighborhood in a wagon unsupervised. And if they were I'd rather have them confront me so that I could at least give them my perspective.

nak with a kicking toddler, please excuse


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

Irishmommy, how did I malign a whole group of people? The rate of murder and assault for children in foster care is higher than for those not in it, that's just the sad truth. It is not ok to try to shut discussion of that of reality down.

I should make a spinoff thread here. CPS is NOT a riskfree intervention! That doesn't mean that people are personally angry at you because you are a foster parent or because you are a social worker, it just means that there is risk.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

It's been said here several times that maybe this two year old is smart enough not to play in the road and the mother knows his boundaries. But this isn't about what he knows or does. A two year old playing in a parking lot is a disaster waiting to happen. He's simply too short for someone backing up to see him.

OP, have you talked to them yet?


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumm* 
I can't quite picture the parking lot/garage. Parking for 4 cars? 40 cars? 400? If it is 4 that is very different than 40. The kid isn't a young 2 if he is zooming around on a scooter-that takes balance and skill a 24 month old usually doesn't posses.

He turned 2 in March. He's been allowed outside alone since about then.

As for the parking lot situation, there are 3 long buildings with 6 condos each arranged in a U-shape around the parking lot, which parks about 35-40 cars; each condo's 2-car garage opens onto the parking lot.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
OP, have you talked to them yet?

No, they must be away -- I haven't seen any of them for the past couple of days.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

What I find ironic about this thread is: if we read in News and Current events about a 2-year-old who had been killed by car while wandering around by himself in a stree/parking lot, everyone would wring their hands and say, "Where was the supervision? Why didn't any of the neighbors call the police? Surely someone saw this child out alone!"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
pigpokey -- there's only one small section of the parking lot that even has a sidewalk. Every great once in a while the little boy will step up on the grass or sidewalk, but he's almost always directly in the street/parking lot. He plays on the speed bump, runs out from between parked cars, stands directly behind my car as I'm starting it up to back out, runs right up to my car when it's in motion because he wants to say hi, etc. Like most 2-year-olds, he just doesn't have the critical thinking skills necessary to safely navigate a parking lot on his own.

I'm sorry, but I think this child's life is in danger. If I saw a 2-year-old running up to moving cars, running out from between parked cars, playing int he middle of a parking lot, etc., I would probably call the non-emergency police line in my city (I've used it before for a different matter). Based on my experience, the probably outcome is that an officer would come, escort the boy back home, and give the parent a talking-to. I think there is a probably a way to "scare" some sense into the mom without getting CPS involved. And if it didn't, at that point I would be honest: I would tell the mom that I was going to call the police every single time I saw the child out wandering alone because, as much as I liked her and wanted to be friends, it was more important to me to protect her son. I don't know how I would cope if something happened to that child and I hadn't taken steps to prevent it, knowing what he was doing.

ETA: Dd is this boy's age and she is very "street savvy". She's never run into the road, she holds hands while crossing streets, etc. We live on a very quiet street with not a lot of traffic. I cannot IMAGINE allowing her to play outside in front of the house by herself. A fenced yard, sure. But in the street? Where there are cars? At age 2? Never.


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## I-AM-Mother (Aug 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
What I find ironic about this thread is: if we read in News and Current events about a 2-year-old who had been killed by car while wandering around by himself in a stree/parking lot, everyone would wring their hands and say, "Where was the supervision? Why didn't any of the neighbors call the police? Surely someone saw this child out alone!".

You're right most people probably would have. Our society has a rather bad disgusting habit of jumping to conclusions especially when it deals with a topic close to our heart, such as parenting.

*However, limabean has shared with us how loving the parents are to their children.* Is anyone reading that line? Are we telling limabean to disregard what she feels as a parent, as a mother, wife, woman?

How many articles have we read in Mothering magazine about the importance of trusting our gut, and doing what we believe to be the right thing at that time?

I think it is important to reread her opening line,

Quote:

*We have the nicest neighbors*
and a sentence in her last paragraph

Quote:

*They're very loving parents other than this one thing*


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *I-AM-Mother* 
You're right most people probably would have. Our society has a rather bad disgusting habit of jumping to conclusions especially when it deals with a topic close to our heart, such as parenting.

*However, limabean has shared with us how loving the parents are to their children.* Is anyone reading that line? Are we telling limabean to disregard what she feels as a parent, as a mother, wife, woman?

How many articles have we read in Mothering magazine about the importance of trusting our gut, and doing what we believe to be the right thing at that time?

I'm not sure why believing the parents are loving and also believing that in this one instance they are endangering their son are incompatible. I absolutely believe limabean when she says they are otherwise kind, loving parents. But even kind, loving parents are capable of doing incredibly dangerous things (letting a toddler play in a parking lot unattended; taking a child out of a carseat in a moving car; etc.). That the parents are kind and loving is beside the point; I wouldn't allow my kind neighbor with a perfect driving record to drive my child around without a carseat, any more than I would allow a nasty neighbor with a suspended license to do it. The point is that the child is in danger and protecting him should, IMO, come first. And clearly limabean's gut is telling her that something is wrong, DESPITE the otherwise positive experience she has with this family, because she's come here to post about it and says that it's "driving her crazy".


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

NYCVeg and I-AM-Mother, you are articulating the exact debate that's taking place in my mind. On one hand, this little boy is in danger, and I would be heartsick if something happened to him and I hadn't done anything to try to prevent it. On the other hand, you should see these parents with their kids -- they love them to bits, do creative projects with them, give them great experiences, etc. It boggles my mind that such otherwise loving, thoughtful, rational people would allow this, but that's how it is. I hope that just talking with the mother will have some effect.


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## I-AM-Mother (Aug 6, 2008)

If the parents are as loving as she claims, I'm certain they have thought long and hard about their children's boundaries both inside and outside of the home.

i know as a mother situations like this can be disturbing to read about but if limabean has already shared her concerns with the mother of this child and she appeared unconcerned, there has to be a reason.

Quote:

And clearly limabean's gut is telling her that something is wrong, DESPITE the otherwise positive experience she has with this family, because she's come here to post about it and says that it's "driving her crazy".
No. If you read her original post,

Quote:

The first few times I saw this happen I walked him home and alerted the parents, but they seemed unconcerned and the mom finally told me, "It's okay, he knows how far he's allowed to go," *so I stopped intervening* (even though he goes about 100 yards down the street, across a parking lot intersection, on his own).
She stopped intervening. The fact that she came here and vented her frustrations means very little because we are taught from a very young age to keep talking UNTIL we find somebody who listens. And she did.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

That the mother is unconcerned does not mean that the child is not in danger. The OP has stated that he stands behind her car AS she is backing out.


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## aran (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *I-AM-Mother* 
If the parents are as loving as she claims, I'm certain they have thought long and hard about their children's boundaries both inside and outside of the home.

This isn't all about her kid and his boundaries... his presence around moving cars whose drivers cannot see him makes it an issue for every driver that uses the parking lot. It would be different if this was a private yard and a driveway that was used only by the family that is making the decision about boundaries. However, their (IMO, poor) judgment call on the 2 yo's boundaries could not only ruin the child's life if there were an accident with a car, but also the driver's. If it were me, I would talk to the mom and frame this as a safety concern for drivers, who can't see a 2 yo that inappropriately stands behind and approaches moving vehicles. Perhaps the mom doesn't know the 2 yo does that. If the behavior didn't change, I would call the police every time the 2 yo was in a dangerous situation around my car - again, framing it as a concern for my own ability to drive safely without running the gauntlet of a toddler around the car.


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## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

I can't help but wonder if those poo-pooing the danger of his being in the parking lot have ever lived in apartment or condo complexes. I have. It's sickening, to see what people let their kids do in parking lots. Or they think they are letting them out to play in the grass in front of the units (in our old complex we found broken glass, dog poop, and condoms each time we peered into the grass, so you can bet none of us ever stepped into that grass), but then as soon as the adults went inside, those kids did whatever they wanted to.

I took the chicken way out. We moved. But we were surrounded by neglectful parents who had parties until 4 AM (if they are on the 1st floor and we are on the 3rd, and they are waking US up, you know their kids aren't sleeping well), let their illegal-to-the-complex and territorial-over-the-building/cornered-my-husband-in-his-car-twice-while-owner's-boyfriend-looked-on-lamely dogs out while the owner's boyfriend stood in the second floor doorway watching the dog (the dogs got more supervision than the kids), and so on. We feared our neighbors. So we moved.

But the parking lot situations were disgusting. The bottom floor neighbor had some sort of possible dwarfism, and both of her kids were extremely tiny and not totally in proportion, so I think they had the congenital condition their mom had. The kids were much older than they looked, but they had no sense and they were TINY. They would routinely pop out from between cars without peering out (from my 3rd floor kitchen window I saw it all). The older brother was in charge of his sister, but he would let her wander until she couldn't be seen.

It made me ill, but I kept telling myself that it wasn't my business, maybe I just didn't understand, they loved their kids in their own way, and so on and so forth.

I wish I had been brave enough to call the authorities, and we actually did call the police about their parties, letting them know there were children in the home, but we could hear the cops downstairs when they came, and they never inquired about the kids.

Now, those parents aren't the kind and loving people who do fun projects that the OP knows. BUT the OP's neighbors are still allowing their kid to do really really dangerous things. As far as I know, cleaning supply bottles warn to NOT re-purpose the bottle, so even if that cleaning bottle was rinsed out and filled with water, it's not a good idea. And if it was cleaning solution, poor plants! But the kicker is the parking lot situation. The person I am now could not let that go. Talk to the parents, talk to the condo association (what would happen to their insurance if there were an accident?), talk until the situation is resolved. The fear of running over a kid that you KNOW is out there somewhere is horrible, enough to keep me in many days. Get it worked out so this kid isn't in danger anymore.


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

Kids playing in the middle of a parking lot is dangerous,it is hard to judge how dangerous as I don't have all the details, with older kids it might be ok, however from what the OP described this child does not understand how to properly navigate a parking lot (he's behind her car when it is started up, approaching her moving vehicle, etc.). I can see a child knowing limits and being able to stay out of danger, but this child is not to that point yet from what the OP describes.

Talking to them again is a good idea and I think I would just start taking him home every time I saw him out and in danger too and say "Hey, X was playing right behind my car. I am scared he is going to get hit by someone backing out who doesn't notice him." or whatever is appropriate for that time. If it still is not getting through, I would consider getting someone with more "authority" involved.

And this may be hitting me a bit harder than others because the apartment complex I lived in a few years ago I almost hit a large group of kids who were playing right in the entrance (not the main entrance, but still heavily used) of an unlighted drive. My night vision is not good and I did not see them until the last second (and my DH with me did not either and he sees fine at night). It scared the crap out of me and just imagine if I had hit them for their families and me









Anyway, it is tough OP and I am sorry you are in this situation, but I too wouldn't just let it go. I would try to be gentle but firm too, but yeah, this is a problem.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Actually, Quinalla, talking to the condo association is a fabulous idea. They can force the issue due to their insurance, and it wouldn't involve CPS.


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## txdancer (Jan 26, 2008)

I understand that a lot of the previous posters think that maybe the mom knows her kids boundaries, and maybe he is just a really smart street-savvy kid. Maybe he is.

I have a street savvy kid of my own. He is actually my step-son, but he lives with us full-time and has no relationship with his mom. I have known him since he was 19 months, and ever since he learned to walk, he has been smart and cautious about safety. We never worried about him around the streets.

So one day, my dh, my dss, my dsd who was not as trustworthy, and I were walking back to our car which we had parked pretty far away. My husband was holding dsd's hand, and some bags. I had both of my hands full with other bags, so dss because he was so responsible and safe got to hold onto my belt loop and walk in between daddy and me.

Well, as we were walking on the sidewalk of a pretty busy shopping street with two lanes and cars parked on each side, my safe and responsible dss, at the time he was 2 and a half years old, darted across the street. He saw a puppy he wanted in a store window, and out of nowhere he took off. Only one car was coming, and they had to slam on their brakes. I will never for the rest of my life forget the sound of those squeling brakes. I couldn't even look, I just heard that sound, and turned away.

DSS was fine, although I think seeing me crying, and his dad ashen really showed him that he was wrong.

He had literally never done anything like that ever before, which is why he was trusted to hold onto me. If you had asked me before that day if I trusted him to play safely somewhat close to roads, like in our front yard with minimal supervision I would have said yes. My boundaries for him would have been very loose for someone his age. But he was still 2, and he still made a mistake and didn't exercise good judgement, which he doesn't completely have yet.

At these young ages, they need supervison and help to make sure that they don't hurt themselves. It's our job as parents to provide that, and I don't think the parents in op are doing that. Sure, maybe nothing will ever happen, but it still cod. I would not feel comfortable with the situation, and if this parents won't change I would be calling someone on them.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *txdancer* 
I understand that a lot of the previous posters think that maybe the mom knows her kids boundaries, and maybe he is just a really smart street-savvy kid. Maybe he is.

I have a street savvy kid of my own. He is actually my step-son, but he lives with us full-time and has no relationship with his mom. I have known him since he was 19 months, and ever since he learned to walk, he has been smart and cautious about safety. We never worried about him around the streets.

So one day, my dh, my dss, my dsd who was not as trustworthy, and I were walking back to our car which we had parked pretty far away. My husband was holding dsd's hand, and some bags. I had both of my hands full with other bags, so dss because he was so responsible and safe got to hold onto my belt loop and walk in between daddy and me.

Well, as we were walking on the sidewalk of a pretty busy shopping street with two lanes and cars parked on each side, my safe and responsible dss, at the time he was 2 and a half years old, darted across the street. He saw a puppy he wanted in a store window, and out of nowhere he took off. Only one car was coming, and they had to slam on their brakes. I will never for the rest of my life forget the sound of those squeling brakes. I couldn't even look, I just heard that sound, and turned away.

DSS was fine, although I think seeing me crying, and his dad ashen really showed him that he was wrong.

He had literally never done anything like that ever before, which is why he was trusted to hold onto me. If you had asked me before that day if I trusted him to play safely somewhat close to roads, like in our front yard with minimal supervision I would have said yes. My boundaries for him would have been very loose for someone his age. But he was still 2, and he still made a mistake and didn't exercise good judgement, which he doesn't completely have yet.

At these young ages, they need supervison and help to make sure that they don't hurt themselves. It's our job as parents to provide that, and I don't think the parents in op are doing that. Sure, maybe nothing will ever happen, but it still cod. I would not feel comfortable with the situation, and if this parents won't change I would be calling someone on them.









:







I am so glad dss was ok.........


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## RainCoastMama (Oct 13, 2004)

The words 'street savvy' and' 2 yr old' are incompatible to me. Really? Street savvy? Able to evaluate or forecast danger and take appropriate measures? From big (and small) dogs? Big (and small) mean kids? Cars, bikes, men in trench coats who have been surveilling the place b/c they know the mom 'trusts' her 2 yr old with his own safety decisions? For god's sake. Really?
Mom taking a calculated risk? How about calculated stupidity? Kinda like those Brit parents in Portugal...but I digress.

As a social worker, we get lots of calls about 2-3 yr olds wandering around alone, sometimes on the highway (!). People blocks away find these kids, or the mailman, or the police. Guess what? We get calls from the ER as well. And no, kids are NOT taken away b/c a parent was lax and let them wander. Jeez louise. It's normally a case of someone talking with the parent and guaging what they know about childhood development, then having a real discussion about danger and boundaries.

OP, have a talk with the mom. A real heart to heart. Then if nothing changes, take more drastic measures.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom* 
Maybe instead of calling cps you could call the police the next time he's out wandering? If someone with a uniform and a badge actually brought the child home, maybe that would impact the mom a little more than just a neighbor, but wouldn't involve having to turn her into CPS at this point.

This is a really good idea!


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## SpringMom (Apr 14, 2008)

Sadly, a 2 year-old was just hit and killed by a car yesterday here in San Diego. He quickly ran out of the house and into an otherwise quiet street where he was accidentally hit. Maybe you can look up the article and give it to the mother of this boy. I know it is a rare occurance but it should serve to remind us all of how unpredictable small children can be. Good luck.


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SpringMom* 
Sadly, a 2 year-old was just hit and killed by a car yesterday here in San Diego. He quickly ran out of the house and into an otherwise quiet street where he was accidentally hit. Maybe you can look up the article and give it to the mother of this boy. I know it is a rare occurance but it should serve to remind us all of how unpredictable small children can be. Good luck.


















OP - Have you talked to the mother yet? Is the boy still having free reign of the parking area?

I hope someone speaks for this little boy before something tragic happens.


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## chirp (Feb 9, 2008)

i was standing in line at best buy once...6 months pregnant, watching a 'bout two year old girl stand on the counter with her daddy holding her. she looked happy, just standing there, watching his interaction with the sales clerk. he took his arm away for one moment to sign something and the little girl jumped! this was like a 3-4 foot counter, and she just jumped! the dad caught her just in time and i was shocked and forewarned about the implusive behavior of young children.

i wouldn't call cps. i don't think i would call the police either. i would try to talk to her again, and if she still refused to listen i would talk to the husband. and if they both refused to listen i dunno...is there a homeowner's association for your condo? there might be rules about unsupervised children. maybe you could send them an anonymous letter.

baby crying gotta go.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *janasmama* 
















OP - Have you talked to the mother yet? Is the boy still having free reign of the parking area?

I hope someone speaks for this little boy before something tragic happens.

They were on vacation and then we were on vacation. But when we came home last night it looked like they were home, so maybe I'll see her around in the next few days.


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