# Parents Should Respect Their Children's Bodies and Decisions



## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Today, I was talking to someone in the blind community, and the subject of her teenage daughter came up. She said that she was angry at her daughter because she refused the flu shot. Both her and her husband vented to me, and I just listened. They finally ended their side of the discussion stating that they forced her to get the flu shot against her will by stating that they are the parents, and she is the child. She is to do what they say. That struck a nerve very bad with me because I feel that it is her body, and though they are the parents, it is not their duty to force their child to do things to her body against her will. I feel like something like that is a violation, especially if it is something as trivial as a flu shot. Not to mention, I'm one hundred percent antovaccination, so I supported her daughter.

Though I was very angry at their small mindedness and refusal to respect their daughter's decisions, I calmly reasoned that she is at the age when her decisions should be respected. I also said that though they are the parents, they should respect her body, especially if she can provide a viable reason why should not have the flu shot. They told me that their reason for forcing her to have the flu shot was because their daughter was high risk, since she has asthma, and they feared the flu killing her. I told them that I can appreciate that they care for their daughter so much that they are trying to do the very best they know how; however, I told them that I'm at even more of a risk than their daughter because I not only have asthma, I have multiple Sclerosis and Chronic Systemic Candida, which puts me at very high risk; yet, I choose not to get the flu shot because I want my own body to build up immunity to such sicknesses, so my immune system can be strengthened. They had not too much to say but to agree that I was, indeed, a high risk.

I also explained that they should be patient with their daughter, since she is going through a very confusing period in her life, and she is only trying to find herself. I also let them know how tough it is to be a teenager, as that time of my life is one I never want to live. I told them that if they ever wanted to vent again, they can certainly do that.

I never got to the point in our discussion where I wanted to offer to show them literature about the harmful chemicals contained in vaccines, as I have tons of literature; however, I hope that a time comes when I will be able to. The discussion ended very nicely, as I was able to bridle my tongue and keep my cool, despite my strong feelings about parents needing to respect children's bodies and their decisions.

I'm so proud of myself that I've calmed down a lot. I find that doing things this way gets me much better results. I don't feel such an utter hatred when I speak with mainstream parents, as I used to; however, it does not change the fact that I feel so strongly about my beliefs and convictions to be child centered. I'm just so glad I can have such strong discussions without losing control of my emotions. It feels so good.


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## Mama2Jesse (Jan 5, 2009)

I'm proud of you; it can be so hard to keep your cool when you feel passionate about something. More people should try it, lol.

Now... I disagree.







Sort of. Certain things, sure; alright, you want to wear one purple sock and one orange one, fine. Want to cut your hair and dye it neon, fine, get in the car and we'll go.

But things that a young one might not have the best grasp of reality about? Like, say, a sixteen year old wants a tattoo? Not happening if I can help it, lol. Four year old wants nothing but cookies for three days? Sorry pal, not good for you at all. Here's a salad. You can have *a* cookie, but not 37 of 'em. Your family runs rampant with diabetes, but you are four so can't understand stable blood sugar/genetic risk.

I think, we should respect their bodies and decisions, but not to the point of permanent modification. And when they are very young, it's our responsibility to teach them how to make good choices and make them for them until they are capable.

Then too, our own opinions tend to dictate our reactions/ whose side we're on; if, say, these parents were very anti-vaccine, and she wanted a flu shot, most of us would probably side with mom and dad, no?


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

IMO, should is a meaningless word and brings a lot of unhappiness to life. If you can accept what is, for what it is, without judging, life can be so much richer and more rewarding.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I believe it is always good to get people thinking, but I have to gently disagree with you. Until a child is legally an adult, the parents are still responsible for their children. It sounds like they were making an informed decision and did what they thought was right based on the information they had. Was it the decision you would make? No. But it's really nobody's business except the family themselves. This issue concerning your post is a tricky, controversial issue, so I don't want to go into that specifically. However, over the course of our children's lives we have to make several difficult decisions and some of them will affect their bodies. People who do not believe in conventional medicine *at all* or believe in faith healing are going to make different medical decisions than someone who follows every single thing their pediatrician tells them. Each, in their own way, are making informed decisions. It's not up to me to tell them one way or another. All I ask is the people that I care about educate themselves before they decide. I think that's really all anyone can ask of anyone else without being offensive or judgmental.


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I believe it is always good to get people thinking, but I have to gently disagree with you. Until a child is legally an adult, the parents are still responsible for their children. It sounds like they were making an informed decision and did what they thought was right based on the information they had. Was it the decision you would make? No. But it's really nobody's business except the family themselves. This issue concerning your post is a tricky, controversial issue, so I don't want to go into that specifically. However, over the course of our children's lives we have to make several difficult decisions and some of them will affect their bodies. People who do not believe in conventional medicine *at all* or believe in faith healing are going to make different medical decisions than someone who follows every single thing their pediatrician tells them. Each, in their own way, are making informed decisions. It's not up to me to tell them one way or another. All I ask is the people that I care about educate themselves before they decide. I think that's really all anyone can ask of anyone else without being offensive or judgmental.









nicely put


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## Peacemamalove (Jun 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I believe it is always good to get people thinking, but I have to gently disagree with you. Until a child is legally an adult, the parents are still responsible for their children. It sounds like they were making an informed decision and did what they thought was right based on the information they had. Was it the decision you would make? No. But it's really nobody's business except the family themselves. This issue concerning your post is a tricky, controversial issue, so I don't want to go into that specifically. However, over the course of our children's lives we have to make several difficult decisions and some of them will affect their bodies. People who do not believe in conventional medicine *at all* or believe in faith healing are going to make different medical decisions than someone who follows every single thing their pediatrician tells them. Each, in their own way, are making informed decisions. It's not up to me to tell them one way or another. All I ask is the people that I care about educate themselves before they decide. I think that's really all anyone can ask of anyone else without being offensive or judgmental.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
IMO, should is a meaningless word and brings a lot of unhappiness to life. If you can accept what is, for what it is, without judging, life can be so much richer and more rewarding.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I believe it is always good to get people thinking, but I have to gently disagree with you. Until a child is legally an adult, the parents are still responsible for their children. It sounds like they were making an informed decision and did what they thought was right based on the information they had. Was it the decision you would make? No. But it's really nobody's business except the family themselves. This issue concerning your post is a tricky, controversial issue, so I don't want to go into that specifically. However, over the course of our children's lives we have to make several difficult decisions and some of them will affect their bodies. People who do not believe in conventional medicine *at all* or believe in faith healing are going to make different medical decisions than someone who follows every single thing their pediatrician tells them. Each, in their own way, are making informed decisions. It's not up to me to tell them one way or another. All I ask is the people that I care about educate themselves before they decide. I think that's really all anyone can ask of anyone else without being offensive or judgmental.

Very well said.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Deer Hunter said:


> I don't feel such an utter hatred when I speak with mainstream parents, as I used to; however, it does not change the fact that I feel so strongly about my beliefs and convictions to be child centered.QUOTE]
> 
> Why did you feel hatred when you spoke with mainstream parents?
> 
> ...


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

How would you have felt if the teen had come home wanting to get the flu shot and her parents had disagreed and refused to sign the necessary paperwork for her to get it? That attitude would not be very child-centered either, nor would it respect the girls decision?


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

I feel very badly for the girl that her parents would make her do that when she didn't want to....it is MY policy that when it comes to medical decisions like that, my kids should have a voice...this is why my son won't be circ'd etc...I consider vaccines to be permanent in their effect and would never force that upon a child. Their body doesn't BELONG to me...it is only mine to gaurd and keep in as close a state as to the one they were born in until they are adults and old enough to take the reins and eat as they please, etc....but something like that, if they could provide me with the research and information that helped them to make that choice...a TEENAGER...I would let them do what they wished.

BUT...all that being said....that is MY policy....and I respect a parents right to have a DIFFERENT policy, based upon their own values and feelings...because if I don't respect THEIR right to parent their child the way they want to, I wonder how I can expect other people to respect my right to do the same. You know? But I respect the way you handled it, OP!


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

I am actually more proud of the parents you lectured then you. That they were polite while you basically told them how to parent their daughter is more then I would have been.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

You probably don't vaccinate because you believe to do so is a threat to your child's health and well-being. They DO vaccinate because they believe that to not do so creats a threat to their child's health and well-being.

When parents make decisions for the right reasons, out of love and caring, surely one has to respect that, irrespective of whether it is the decision one would have made one's self? It is not as if they insisted she got a vaccine because they wanted her to suffer a reaction, hoped it would really hurt, or couldn't be bothered to think in any way about it. Believe it or not there are lots of vaxers out there (i am one of them) who have read everything you have read and did not come away with the same viewpoint. We love our children every bit as much as you do, and are doing our best every day just as you are.

If my 16 year old came to me having read everything i've read, seen everything i've seen (or at least gone some way to do so) and talked to all the people i've talked to and decided she disagreed with a decision i'd made on her behalf i'd be ready to listen, but that is very rarely the case, and depending on her reasoning i might still over rule her decision.


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
Today, I was talking to someone in the blind community, and the subject of her teenage daughter came up. She said that she was angry at her daughter because she refused the flu shot. Both her and her husband vented to me, and I just listened. They finally ended their side of the discussion stating that they forced her to get the flu shot against her will by stating that they are the parents, and she is the child. She is to do what they say. That struck a nerve very bad with me because I feel that it is her body, and though they are the parents, it is not their duty to force their child to do things to her body against her will. I feel like something like that is a violation, especially if it is something as trivial as a flu shot. Not to mention, I'm one hundred percent antovaccination, so I supported her daughter.

Though I was very angry at their small mindedness and refusal to respect their daughter's decisions, I calmly reasoned that she is at the age when her decisions should be respected. I also said that though they are the parents, they should respect her body, especially if she can provide a viable reason why should not have the flu shot. They told me that their reason for forcing her to have the flu shot was because their daughter was high risk, since she has asthma, and they feared the flu killing her. I told them that I can appreciate that they care for their daughter so much that they are trying to do the very best they know how; however, I told them that I'm at even more of a risk than their daughter because I not only have asthma, I have multiple Sclerosis and Chronic Systemic Candida, which puts me at very high risk; yet, I choose not to get the flu shot because I want my own body to build up immunity to such sicknesses, so my immune system can be strengthened. They had not too much to say but to agree that I was, indeed, a high risk.

I also explained that they should be patient with their daughter, since she is going through a very confusing period in her life, and she is only trying to find herself. I also let them know how tough it is to be a teenager, as that time of my life is one I never want to live. I told them that if they ever wanted to vent again, they can certainly do that.

I never got to the point in our discussion where I wanted to offer to show them literature about the harmful chemicals contained in vaccines, as I have tons of literature; however, I hope that a time comes when I will be able to. The discussion ended very nicely, as I was able to bridle my tongue and keep my cool, despite my strong feelings about parents needing to respect children's bodies and their decisions.

I'm so proud of myself that I've calmed down a lot. I find that doing things this way gets me much better results. I don't feel such an utter hatred when I speak with mainstream parents, as I used to; however, it does not change the fact that I feel so strongly about my beliefs and convictions to be child centered. I'm just so glad I can have such strong discussions without losing control of my emotions. It feels so good.

It is _very_ good that you no longer feel utter hatred towards parents who vaccinate.







The next step is realize that people (like myself and many others on MDC) who do chose to vaccinate their children are doing so out of love and _are_ making child centered choices. Maybe not the choices that you would make, but that doesn't make the parents any less respectful of their chidlren's bodies.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

I understand where the OP is coming from...and I am proud of her because it sounds like this was a discussion that they were having as friends about an issue with one of their children and like she handled it well. I think the OP discussed this issue with them in an adult manner and that was that...I don't think she lectured them or called them "bad parents" or anything like that...there was a discussion..the OP was respectful. Unless I'm reading the OP wrong?


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## GoestoShow (Jul 15, 2009)

.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Was it the decision you would make? No. But it's really nobody's business except the family themselves.

Well, to be fair....if they didn't want to open themselves up to possible judgement, they shouldn't have shared their story with anyone.

None of my business? Fine. Don't tell me about it. KWIM?


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Well, to be fair....if they didn't want to open themselves up to possible judgement, they shouldn't have shared their story with anyone.

None of my business? Fine. Don't tell me about it. KWIM?

Goodness gracious! So, if I don't want to be judged... even if I just want to talk about something that is troubling me... I should keep it to myself? Don't you think that's kind of harsh? Sometimes as friends, our job is to listen and keep our mouths (and opinions) to ourselves. To not judge... just listen.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

I agree with the consensus. I don't vaccinate my daughter, so that's not where I'm coming from. But I do agree that parents have the responsibility to make medical decisions for their children until they come of age.

My 4 year old was jumping on the bed and fell off and split her scalp open on the radiator. She did not want to go to the ER, and definitely did not want the 2 staples they put into her head. For our part, as parents, we hated the whole thing, but we made the choice that we felt was best for her, to help her heal.

I won't give my kid the flu shot, but I know that another parent would make a different decision for their child - for the same reasons (wanting to keep their child healthy and safe).

As a kid, my dentist pulled 4 of my permanent teeth to make room in my very small mouth. I sure as hell didn't want that done. I can't even comment today whether it was the right choice but I know for a fact my mother made it with the sole criterion of "what is best for my child."

If my kid came to me with research that questioned whether my choice was the safest choice, I think I would be negligent to not consider it. But even so, in the end, it's my responsibility to make that choice until my kid is an adult.


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
I understand where the OP is coming from...and I am proud of her because it sounds like this was a discussion that they were having as friends about an issue with one of their children and like she handled it well. I think the OP discussed this issue with them in an adult manner and that was that...I don't think she lectured them or called them "bad parents" or anything like that...there was a discussion..the OP was respectful. Unless I'm reading the OP wrong?

Oh, I agree that she handled it well and in a respectful manner. One of the things that angered Deer Hunter was the parents "small mindedness". I was just pointing out that the next step in her journey of being more open minded herself, was to accept that parents who make choices that she considers "mainstream" are still loving, caring, child-centered people. Deer Hunter has come a long way in her journey to control her anger at people who parent differently then she.







I'm sure that she will make a wonderful parent one day.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Goodness gracious! So, if I don't want to be judged... even if I just want to talk about something that is troubling me... I should keep it to myself? Don't you think that's kind of harsh? Sometimes as friends, our job is to listen and keep our mouths (and opinions) to ourselves. To not judge... just listen.

If you share your stories with other people, it then becomes their business, too. And FWIW, the OP didn't say she was talking to a *friend*. This could have been someone she just met or had only spoken to a few times in the past.

If something is troubling you, and you talk to a friend about it, you don't want any feedback at all? I see no point in talking, then. That's like talking to a wall. All I'm saying is that you can't expect that people will always give you the responses that will make you feel better.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:

As a kid, my dentist pulled 4 of my permanent teeth to make room in my very small mouth. I sure as hell didn't want that done. I can't even comment today whether it was the right choice but I know for a fact my mother made it with the sole criterion of "what is best for my child."
My mother made the same decision, for the same reason, with the same outcome except that i had 6 adult teeth removed, AND the dentist pulled out all of my remaining milk teeth to get at my molars which were still in my jaw to do it so from age 10 to age 12 i only had 8 teeth, the front ones! AND she had it done over 8 weeks (one quarter mouth of 3milk teeth and one/two major molar removed at a time every other friday) so that i wouldn't have general anaesthetic which she felt was too risky. I didn't enjoy it, but i'd do the same thing for my DD now.


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
If you share your stories with other people, it then becomes their business, too. And FWIW, the OP didn't say she was talking to a *friend*. This could have been someone she just met or had only spoken to a few times in the past.

If something is troubling you, and you talk to a friend about it, you don't want any feedback at all? I see no point in talking, then. That's like talking to a wall. All I'm saying is that you can't expect that people will always give you the responses that will make you feel better.

Well, she did say that they parents were wanting to vent, not asking for advice. Don't you ever have moments when you just want to whine about stuff and have someone listen? Yesterday my children were driving me crazy so I called my mom and vented to her about them. I didn't want advice or for her to tell me I was doing it all wrong, I just wanted someone to listen. And after 20 minutes of whining, I felt better and was able to go be a better mom. I just needed to talk and to have someone listen.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

I wondered where you went, Deer Hunter!









I've had a few of those moments lately where I feel like I was able to control my temper and be civil about something I wasn't previously every able to be nice about, and it is a proud moment! Good for you!









That said, I think the parents were probably making the decision they felt was best and I don't think I would have gone into a lengthy discussion about it. I might respectfull disagree, but that's about as far as I would go. There are a lot of loving parents who give vaccines to their kids.

I don't know about my parents choice to have my vaxed (how I feel about it, I mean), but I am a needle phobe, and cannot be trusted to make decisions about my medical care when needles are involved. Once when I was severely dehydrated, I really struggled with forcing myself to go to the hospital for IV fluids. I'm glad that my husband gently pressured me to go. I would have no problem doing the same for a child.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

OP, I actually agree with you. We had swim lessons 2 years ago and they decided to hold a flu shot clinic AT the swim place. It was indoors and echoey and the lessons were very expensive. So for 2 weeks (2 lessons a week) we had to sit through watching many people forced into vaccinations against their will. There were children being held down by 4+ people-and we're not talking toddlers. There were old people in wheelchairs being forced. It was a total nightmare.

I find it disgusting that we don't respect other peoples' bodies. Forcing a chemical cocktail that has been proven to be dangerous into someone is a far cry from a freaking tattoo. And in most states, that's not even legal until a certain age, anyhow.

I didn't talk with the people about their flu shot decisions. But I did round up a bunch of product inserts, highlight, and scatter them around the swim waiting room.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

It is important with friends to know the difference between when they just want to vent and when theyare asking for your opinion. There are things I would force my child to do, even medically, because while it is her body it effects all of us. When my children got the flew last month (we got H1N1 as well as regular flu) none of us slept for a month. we all suffered with t he sick one. I missed work, had medical bills, got sick!. granted I still would not have chosen to get the vaccine but part of refusing vaccines (or any other choice) is being willing to deal with the consequences. When these decisions are made, if they effect the whole family, they are family descisions.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
I told them that if they ever wanted to vent again, they can certainly do that.

Do you really think they will? I mean you basically told them they disrespected their child and made a foolish medical decision. I don't think I'd be very likely to bring up the subject again with anyone who did that to me.

Also, you said you were "calm" but that you were "very angry at their small mindedness and refusal to respect their daughter's decisions." I'm sure on some level that had to come through.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

What if this was another medical treatment?

You have lice you will be combed? Not to respectful but there is a reason behind it.

Pinworms?

Hearing test?

Kidney Ultrasounds?

Echocardiogram?

Meds for cronic constipation?

Athlete's foot?

Jock itch?

You have no clue if there is a medical reason that child should take a vacination against the flu.

Yes, I have not respected my child's body and wishes. I don't like it but at the same time I am the parent. I have to make the judgement call. Even though I would give my teen a lot more room I would put my foot down.


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## Tigeresse (Nov 19, 2001)

I agree that a child of that age should definitely have a say in medical decisions involving her body. I do agree the ultimate decision rests with the parents, but if they had to resort to force to get this shot in her you can most assuredly count on it having done more harm than good. My guess is at 18 there will be no more flu shots for her.


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## LaLaLaLa (Oct 29, 2007)

In my experience, when kids don't want to get shots, it's because they are afraid of the shot itself, not that they have done extensive research about the effects of a vaccine.

There are lots of medical things I make my kids do, because I am looking out for their overall well-being. My five-year-old daughter has had four major surgeries already for a facial birthmark. This summer she had one surgery, then for the twelve weeks after the surgery had an injection every week. Then another surgery at the end of the twelve weeks. Was she overly thrilled with this situation? No. I still made her do it. Next summer she'll have at least one skin graft. Also not her decision.

Sometimes parents have to make kids do things that kids don't like, which is a bummer for everyone involved. It doesn't make the parents wrong or bad parents, though.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
That struck a nerve very bad with me because I feel that it is her body, and though they are the parents, it is not their duty to force their child to do things to her body against her will.

I think it's a grey area. My 13 year old is involved in decisions about her medical care. I speak very openly and honestly with her about things, try to get her to look at things critically, and listen to her. Ultimately I'm responsible for her right now, but I feel like this is the period of her life when I get to train her HOW to make these kinds of decisions. If I just make them for her she misses out, but if I just let her make them without teaching her to think criticially, she also misses out.

I wouldn't, BTW, force my DD to do something to her body against her will. One thing about teens is that they have plenty of ways of taking control of their bodies in destructive, rebellous ways. I think that parents who get into power struggles over this are misguided.

Once kids are old enough to drink, smoke, use illegal drugs, have sex, cut themselves with knives, etc., parents really need to pick their battles and think about how they are teaching kids to make choices rather than forcing kids to make exactly the choice the parent wants on those few things that parents actually can control. There is so much more that we really and truly don't have control over. I believe that the more we respect a teens right to control their body, the less likely they are to do something stupid just to prove us wrong.

Quote:

Not to mention, I'm one hundred percent antovaccination, so I supported her daughter.
I suspect that this is more the issue than whether or not teens should get to make their own choices regarding their bodies. I suspect that your response would have been different if the teen had wanted vaccines and the parents were against them.

I really see it the same way either way, and I believe that teens are old enough to be part of the decision. However, that only works if the parents truly are OK with the teen making either choice.

Quote:

I also explained that they should be patient with their daughter, since she is going through a very confusing period in her life, and she is only trying to find herself. I also let them know how tough it is to be a teenager, as that time of my life is one I never want to live.
But would you be OK with your teen deciding to get the MMR? Would you be able to talk calmly to your own child? Respect her choice?


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigeresse* 
I agree that a child of that age should definitely have a say in medical decisions involving her body. I do agree the ultimate decision rests with the parents, but if they had to resort to force to get this shot in her you can most assuredly count on it having done more harm than good. My guess is at 18 there will be no more flu shots for her.


But that's the point, right? At 18 she will be responsible, at least in the legal sense, for her decision making and all the rationale behind it. If she decides never to get another flu shot, that's her choice, as an adult. Ultimately, as a minor, her well being is in the care of her parents.

In our home, dd would never "choose" to get a flu shot. I wouldn't either, nor would DH. But another of my kids is very high risk, and as a family we need to do what we can to protect him, so we get flu shots, among the zillion other things, not vax related, that are part of our arsenal.

If someone felt I was being small minded, or mainstream, and told me about it, so be it. That person has the luxury of not living in my family, not holding responsibility for a kid w/ a chronic illness, and not having to make the tough choices. Someone hopefully will clue them into how rude it is to act in that manner.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
How would you have felt if the teen had come home wanting to get the flu shot and her parents had disagreed and refused to sign the necessary paperwork for her to get it? That attitude would not be very child-centered either, nor would it respect the girls decision?

Well, if that were my child, and she were sixteen years of age and old enough to provide me with a mature reason why she wanted the flu shot, and I was confident she fully understood why she was doing it, I'd let her do it, though, i disagree. I'd try to reason with her at first, though, and I'd show her literature, so she could make an informed choice; but, if she still wanted to go forth with it, I'd have to let her. It is her body after all. Sure, I do not believe in child centeredness to the point of the child being allowed to do whatever they want, as that is so unreasonable, and children do need guidance from their parents. I just feel that children should have an input as much as possible, within reason, of course.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kittywitty* 
OP, I actually agree with you. We had swim lessons 2 years ago and they decided to hold a flu shot clinic AT the swim place. It was indoors and echoey and the lessons were very expensive. So for 2 weeks (2 lessons a week) we had to sit through watching many people forced into vaccinations against their will. There were children being held down by 4+ people-and we're not talking toddlers. There were old people in wheelchairs being forced. It was a total nightmare.

I find it disgusting that we don't respect other peoples' bodies. Forcing a chemical cocktail that has been proven to be dangerous into someone is a far cry from a freaking tattoo. And in most states, that's not even legal until a certain age, anyhow.

I didn't talk with the people about their flu shot decisions. But I did round up a bunch of product inserts, highlight, and scatter them around the swim waiting room.


I'm glad you see where I'm coming from on this and do not feel me to be arrogant. I'm just concerned, that is all because I know about the dangers of the chemicals contained in these vaccines. If I were there at your pool place and saw that, I'd have cried my eyes out. I don't think I could handle watching people being forced to do things like that against their will. To me, it is the same as violation.

Personally, i choose not to vaccinate my children, but if my children get to a point that they are able to maturely reason with me that they want to get vaccinated, and this will be after they see all of the literature about the dangers and read through all the studies and articles to have a clear head, then I'd have to let them because it is their bodies.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Do you really think they will? I mean you basically told them they disrespected their child and made a foolish medical decision. I don't think I'd be very likely to bring up the subject again with anyone who did that to me.

Also, you said you were "calm" but that you were "very angry at their small mindedness and refusal to respect their daughter's decisions." I'm sure on some level that had to come through.


Actually, my anger did not show at all. One becomes good at keeping their emotions hidden if they need to. Trust me, I've learned to do that, especially when my uncle became drunk and abusive. I could not let him see me cry. I could not let him see me be effected. so, if I want, I can go and not lead people onto how I feel. I can be calk but rage inside. i grew up like that, not being allow to cry and all. And, the conversation did go fine, as we did talk for about two hours after that, and then I went to bed. That is why I did not come back.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:

Personally, i choose not to vaccinate my children, but if my children get to a point that they are able to maturely reason with me that they want to get vaccinated, and this will be after they see all of the literature about the dangers and read through all the studies and articles to have a clear head, then I'd have to let them because it is their bodies.
I am curious, what "mature reason" would it take for you to accept the fact she wants a flu shot.

I am not being snarky but really would like to know what argument would sway a person who is anti-vac to allow their child to get something that they believe truly is detrimental to their health.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I'm curious too, as to why you would accept the decision of your 16 year old who has read whatever you recommend for them but don't trust that this family had done enough research in making their decision to have their DD vaccinated? The inference all-too-often seems to be that if one vaccinates then one hasn't researched properly because an anti-vax stance is the only possible outcome from "proper" research. And i guess i would dispute that.


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## siennasmom (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
Personally, i choose not to vaccinate my children, but if my children get to a point that they are able to maturely reason with me that they want to get vaccinated, and this will be after they see all of the literature about the dangers and read through all the studies and articles to have a clear head, then I'd have to let them because it is their bodies.

At what age? Four? Ten? Seventeen?


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
I think it's a grey area. My 13 year old is involved in decisions about her medical care. I speak very openly and honestly with her about things, try to get her to look at things critically, and listen to her. Ultimately I'm responsible for her right now, but I feel like this is the period of her life when I get to train her HOW to make these kinds of decisions. If I just make them for her she misses out, but if I just let her make them without teaching her to think criticially, she also misses out.

I wouldn't, BTW, force my DD to do something to her body against her will. One thing about teens is that they have plenty of ways of taking control of their bodies in destructive, rebellous ways. I think that parents who get into power struggles over this are misguided.

Once kids are old enough to drink, smoke, use illegal drugs, have sex, cut themselves with knives, etc., parents really need to pick their battles and think about how they are teaching kids to make choices rather than forcing kids to make exactly the choice the parent wants on those few things that parents actually can control. There is so much more that we really and truly don't have control over. I believe that the more we respect a teens right to control their body, the less likely they are to do something stupid just to prove us wrong.

I suspect that this is more the issue than whether or not teens should get to make their own choices regarding their bodies. I suspect that your response would have been different if the teen had wanted vaccines and the parents were against them.

I really see it the same way either way, and I believe that teens are old enough to be part of the decision. However, that only works if the parents truly are OK with the teen making either choice.

But would you be OK with your teen deciding to get the MMR? Would you be able to talk calmly to your own child? Respect her choice?


If my teen knew what she was getting into, sure. I'd let her have the MMR if she felt she needed it. I mentioned that I was antivacs because I felt the teens pain about being forced against her will about the shot. But had she wanted it, I"d be fine. I disagree with vacs, but again, it is her body, and if she is old enough to assert such a decision, then that is her right.


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## siennasmom (Mar 14, 2006)

Let's say your 13-year-old daughter wants to move in with her 30-year-old boyfriend, and she has lots of great reasons why she should be able to. Her body, her choice?


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom* 
I am curious, what "mature reason" would it take for you to accept the fact she wants a flu shot.

I am not being snarky but really would like to know what argument would sway a person who is anti-vac to allow their child to get something that they believe truly is detrimental to their health.

Well, if my child could give me a good enough argument, such as the benefits and not jst spout off something that she heard, but it would have to come from her, then I'd give her that choice. I disagree like hell, but when children are finding themselves and becoming independent, they are not always going to do things that the parents agree with. Trust me, I"ve done the same to my parents. Only, I"m not sure why I'm still alive because I was a pretty bad child.


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

I'd be offended if someone who doesn't even have kids started offering me a lecture on how to be a better parent.

I really think you should've minded your own business, and you post a lot about what other people are doing parenting wise. Perhaps you need to focus on something else you can actually control?

I don't know it all just comes off as nosy, judgmental and know-it-all ish.

Get a hobby or something that will make you feel good about yourself instead of hyperfocusing on how horrible everyone else parents their children.

It's not emotionally healthy to be so concerned/emotional about other people's affairs.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siennasmom* 
At what age? Four? Ten? Seventeen?

Come on, I think you are smart enough to know...

I'm not going to answer that.

Do you have to be sarcastic? i never meant for this discussion to become that way. I'm almost sorry I ever posted this topic.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
Well, if my child could give me a good enough argument, such as the benefits and not jst spout off something that she heard, but it would have to come from her, then I'd give her that choice. .

The thing is, "good argument" is subjective. A lot of the arguments I hear on both sides of the vaccine debate sound like "spouting off" to me









It seems clear that the parents of the 16 yo in question did not feel she had a good enough argument. I might not agree, but I am not walking in the shoes of a parent with a medically complex 16 yo, so....


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## siennasmom (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
Come on, I think you are smart enough to know...

I'm not going to answer that.

Do you have to be sarcastic? i never meant for this discussion to become that way. I'm almost sorry I ever posted this topic.

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I really don't understand where you are drawing the line here.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
I'd be offended if someone who doesn't even have kids started offering me a lecture on how to be a better parent.

I really think you should've minded your own business, and you post a lot about what other people are doing parenting wise. Perhaps you need to focus on something else you can actually control?

I don't know it all just comes off as nosy, judgmental and know-it-all ish.

Get a hobby or something that will make you feel good about yourself instead of hyperfocusing on how horrible everyone else parents their children.

It's not emotionally healthy to be so concerned/emotional about other people's affairs.

Um wow?

I'm sorry I offended you...

I'm sorry you took me as being judgemental. That was not at all my intent. You think I'm bad now? I'm actually better than I used to be. I'm just so passionate about a lot. i had a tough upbringing, thanks to my uncle who was supposed to be a loving godfather, thanks to losing almost half my childhood friends to death for various reasons and that is no lie, and being sick off and on most of my life, and sometimes, i feel like i have to save the world. i know I can't, but i sometimes see myself like that. I'm just passionate about helping others, and sometimes I come off wrong. i don't even realize it. i'm an Aspie and pretty dumb to things like that. For me, it is very tough to see gray areas. I think a lot in black and white, which compounds matters, considering i'm not NT and all that. Sorry I stirred up so much trouble. Sorry if I offended any of you all here. I was just expressing my feelings, and that was it. I thought that here was fine to do it, since I thought that tere are many who believe along my same lines--ap and natural family living and all that.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siennasmom* 
I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I really don't understand where you are drawing the line here.

Well, since you are being genuine, i"s def say tha tfour is far too young. They can make some decisions at that age, but nothing that severe, obviously. Ten, well, maybe? It would depend on the maturity of the child because I've seen some very mature ten year olds. I hope that this helps.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

I should clarify something for the record. The child being vaccinated was not the problem, so much as forcing her to do it when she clearly stated, at the age of sixteen, that was not something she was willing to do to her body. I'm glad I'm grown and nobody can force me to make decisions like that against my will. I'm trying to decide if I want to take a certain MS drug, should they think it is a good idea, as the side affects can be almost deadly. I"dd be highly upset if someone forced that on me, and I'm twenty-five next month.


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## siennasmom (Mar 14, 2006)

Why did she not want it?


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
Um wow?

I'm sorry I offended you...

I'm sorry you took me as being judgemental. That was not at all my intent. You think I'm bad now? I'm actually better than I used to be. I'm just so passionate about a lot. i had a tough upbringing, thanks to my uncle who was supposed to be a loving godfather, thanks to losing almost half my childhood friends to death for various reasons and that is no lie, and being sick off and on most of my life, and sometimes, i feel like i have to save the world. i know I can't, but i sometimes see myself like that. I'm just passionate about helping others, and sometimes I come off wrong. i don't even realize it. i'm an Aspie and pretty dumb to things like that. For me, it is very tough to see gray areas. I think a lot in black and white, which compounds matters, considering i'm not NT and all that. Sorry I stirred up so much trouble. Sorry if I offended any of you all here. I was just expressing my feelings, and that was it. I thought that here was fine to do it, since I thought that tere are many who believe along my same lines--ap and natural family living and all that.


I've read as you've posted and yes I agree you've done a lot of self work in this area.







I guess I just think you should try and distance yourself from getting involved at all in other people's parenting choices because it seems to trigger you.

I had a hellacious childhood. I try to focus my worry about my own kids. Of course if I saw abuse I'd act, but you can't get bogged down with each individual's decision even if it sets your heart to beating fast and you don't agree.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
I feel very badly for the girl that her parents would make her do that when she didn't want to....it is MY policy that when it comes to medical decisions like that, my kids should have a voice...this is why my son won't be circ'd etc...I consider vaccines to be permanent in their effect and would never force that upon a child. Their body doesn't BELONG to me...it is only mine to gaurd and keep in as close a state as to the one they were born in until they are adults and old enough to take the reins and eat as they please, etc....but something like that, if they could provide me with the research and information that helped them to make that choice...a TEENAGER...I would let them do what they wished.

BUT...all that being said....that is MY policy....and I respect a parents right to have a DIFFERENT policy, based upon their own values and feelings...because if I don't respect THEIR right to parent their child the way they want to, I wonder how I can expect other people to respect my right to do the same. You know? But I respect the way you handled it, OP!










I one hundred percent agree with you.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
I understand where the OP is coming from...and I am proud of her because it sounds like this was a discussion that they were having as friends about an issue with one of their children and like she handled it well. I think the OP discussed this issue with them in an adult manner and that was that...I don't think she lectured them or called them "bad parents" or anything like that...there was a discussion..the OP was respectful. Unless I'm reading the OP wrong?

You got the correct idea all the way. Thanks so much for that.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I won't force my teenage daughter to get the swine flu shot. But, I'll tell her to get it at school if they offer it.

She can refuse, and I will respect that. I will get that shot, and I'd like she and my husband to get it. But, it's OK if they say "no".


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## faithsstuff (Nov 30, 2008)

lol, I love that you told them how hard it is to be a teen. I'm sure the mother who was a blind woman thought the teen years were a breeze.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LaLaLaLa* 
In my experience, when kids don't want to get shots, it's because they are afraid of the shot itself, not that they have done extensive research about the effects of a vaccine.

There are lots of medical things I make my kids do, because I am looking out for their overall well-being. My five-year-old daughter has had four major surgeries already for a facial birthmark. This summer she had one surgery, then for the twelve weeks after the surgery had an injection every week. Then another surgery at the end of the twelve weeks. Was she overly thrilled with this situation? No. I still made her do it. Next summer she'll have at least one skin graft. Also not her decision.

Sometimes parents have to make kids do things that kids don't like, which is a bummer for everyone involved. It doesn't make the parents wrong or bad parents, though.

This.

In the last two months, I had to take my 9 year old son to many appointments, including really unpleasant and painful ones. I had to hold his hands while they did a spinal tap. I had to talk him through several IV insertions, a PICC line insertion, and multiple blood draws.
And I was the one (with DH) who decided that he would get the PICC line at all. The doctor explained the pros and cons, and we *could* have gone with a different treatment plan, but both DH and I agreed that the PICC line, while more invasive, was the better treatment given the overall picture of DS's health.

We explained everything that was happening to him, and told him why it was happening. I told him it was his body and he had the right to know what was going on -- but that his father and I had made the decision, in consultation with the doctors. There were a lot of pros and cons about the decision that were really beyond him - potential consequences down the line for choosing the fewer-needles path - that he would say, at 9, he doesn't care about, but at 19 he may well have cared a LOT about.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
Actually, my anger did not show at all. One becomes good at keeping their emotions hidden if they need to. Trust me, I've learned to do that, especially when my uncle became drunk and abusive. I could not let him see me cry. I could not let him see me be effected. so, if I want, I can go and not lead people onto how I feel. I can be calk but rage inside. i grew up like that, not being allow to cry and all. And, the conversation did go fine, as we did talk for about two hours after that, and then I went to bed. That is why I did not come back.

IME, people give off subtle and even not so subtle clues when they are holding back something like intense anger or feelings of disapproval and judgment (an thinking someone is being small minded is judgment), and others can often sense it even if they aren't fully conscious of it. I cannot imagine any kind of healthy effective conversation taking place if someone is holding on to feelings like that under the surface.

I think it's great that you say you are no longer overtly hostile towards people, but if you are still angry on the inside, you have more work to do IMO.


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
I should clarify something for the record. The child being vaccinated was not the problem, so much as forcing her to do it when she clearly stated, at the age of sixteen, that was not something she was willing to do to her body. I'm glad I'm grown and nobody can force me to make decisions like that against my will. I'm trying to decide if I want to take a certain MS drug, should they think it is a good idea, as the side affects can be almost deadly. I"dd be highly upset if someone forced that on me, and I'm twenty-five next month.


I think the thing to keep in mind is that her parents know her best, not you. Maybe she isn't a very mature 16 year old, maybe this was a sudden decision based emotion, not fact. Maybe she wasn't really wanting to do research and based her decision off of what friends say. None of us here know, we just have to assume that the parents love their daughter and all of their actions come from a loving perspective.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

You have made a lot of progress, I remember some of your earlier posts.

I just want to say, that while I may not agree with the content of your points, I do appreciate your passion.

I have always been passionate about dozens of issues, parenting and children being key among them, even _before_ I became a parent myself... because, well, I _had_ been a child, and I do have parents, and I often reflected on my own upbringing and made plans for my own future children based on my experiences and my research and reading.

I think it's great that you are so interested.

Having said all that, the main thing I have learned after becoming a parent is how *desperate* one is to protect one's children.

I would run infront of a speeding train or jump into quicksand without a second thought to save my child.

This is a fundamental change that I experienced after becoming a parent, I felt it even on a physical level, it is akin to vertigo.

I agonize over and research every detail when it comes to my child's health. Nothing keeps me up at night more than my child's well-being.

That includes vaccination.

I know most parents do the same.

Please keep this in mind and in your heart the next time you talk with friends about their precious children.

Trin.


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## <3mymom (Oct 15, 2009)

While I am not a mother yet (so take my opinion with a grain of salt) I feel I have a decent understanding as to where the OP is coming from. I'm 20 now so have the right to make my own medical choices but have come up against some pressure from my dad to get a flu shot this year. As an adult now I refused after doing my own research but my dad still brings it up and is mostly coming from a perspective of media fear and hype. I was fully vaccinated as a child though my mom thinks she would have done it differently if she knew now what she knew then so my family and myself are not anti-vaccine.

It seems to me, however, that a 16 year old is probably mature enough to make some of her own medical decisions, or at least have some input. Of course that is dependent on the 16 year old, and the medical decision, but depending on her argument for not wanting the flu shot I think her body and her wish to not be vaccinated should have been respected. If she was coming from a place of fear or needles or doctors well then maybe her parents still need to be making these decisions for her, but if she has done her research and can present facts supporting her decision to not get the flu shot she should be respected.

Maybe in this case the parents made the best decision, it's definitely not my place to judge as I am not them or even a parent yet. I do think that perhaps they could have discussed it further and both the parents and the daughter could have listened to both sides' concerns (and maybe they did this I don't know). They also could have looked into other options for keeping their daughter healthy this flu season, regular hand washing, a real effort to keep her hands off of her face, healthy diet, exercise, vitamins, and I'm sure others have more ideas. Of course none of those measures are 100% effective but I think most people (on both sides of the debate) will agree that vaccines aren't either.

I hope I don't come off as sounding like I'm telling anyone what they should have done, that is definitely not my intent, everyone here seems to make the decisions they feel are best for their children out of love and should have every right to continue to do that without judgment from me or anyone else.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 

I'm sorry you took me as being judgemental. That was not at all my intent. You think I'm bad now? I'm actually better than I used to be. I'm just so passionate about a lot. i had a tough upbringing, thanks to my uncle who was supposed to be a loving godfather, thanks to losing almost half my childhood friends to death for various reasons and that is no lie, and being sick off and on most of my life, and sometimes, i feel like i have to save the world. i know I can't, but i sometimes see myself like that. I'm just passionate about helping others, and sometimes I come off wrong. i don't even realize it. i'm an Aspie and pretty dumb to things like that. For me, it is very tough to see gray areas. I think a lot in black and white, which compounds matters, considering i'm not NT and all that. Sorry I stirred up so much trouble. Sorry if I offended any of you all here. I was just expressing my feelings, and that was it. I thought that here was fine to do it, since I thought that tere are many who believe along my same lines--ap and natural family living and all that.

All of us make decisions for our kids with some remembrance of what it's like to be a kid. BUT, I think that, to be a good parent, you need to be able to let your past go in regards to your own children. Parenting with the intent of righting the wrongs of your past makes children into an agenda. It makes it more about you and less about them. And when they do things you don't want, it builds resentment.

You have come a long long way since some of your previous posts, but I would encourage you to try not to make judgments about other parent's decisions based on your own past experience as a child. Your experience as a child doesn't necessarily apply to their child.


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## seaheroine (Dec 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kittywitty* 
OP, I actually agree with you. We had swim lessons 2 years ago and they decided to hold a flu shot clinic AT the swim place. It was indoors and echoey and the lessons were very expensive. So for 2 weeks (2 lessons a week) we had to sit through watching many people forced into vaccinations against their will. There were children being held down by 4+ people-and we're not talking toddlers. There were old people in wheelchairs being forced. It was a total nightmare.

I find it disgusting that we don't respect other peoples' bodies. Forcing a chemical cocktail that has been proven to be dangerous into someone is a far cry from a freaking tattoo. And in most states, that's not even legal until a certain age, anyhow.

I didn't talk with the people about their flu shot decisions. But I did round up a bunch of product inserts, highlight, and scatter them around the swim waiting room.

I'm with you. At 16, I think a long discussion - and perhaps mutual research - for both sides of a vaccination issue is warranted. 16 is almost an adult and most 16 year olds are capable of rational discussions about bodily health - and definitely have a strong sense of bodily privacy/autonomy. In this particular case, I would not have forced the vaccination on her, even if I felt personally strongly about it. I think forced vaccination is quite different than seeking emergency medical treatment, etc.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LaLaLaLa* 
In my experience, when kids don't want to get shots, it's because they are afraid of the shot itself, not that they have done extensive research about the effects of a vaccine.

I'm staying out of the debate itself, except to say that ds1 can decide what vaxes he does or doesn't want. If he wants one, I'll sign the paperwork. If he doesn't, I won't.

But, I did want to address the above. I hated getting vaxes in school. I didn't care about the needle. Needles don't bother me at all (except spinal - spinals are freaky). I got the vaxes, because I did think the authorities knew what they were talking about, and had no idea that it was even possible to refuse them. But, I always felt very edgy about having unknown substances, including diseases, injected into my body. It bothered me on a very fundamental level that had nothing to do with fear of "getting a shot". I don't know how I felt about them as a small child, but as a teen, it was the contents, not the needle, that concerned me.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

Having said all that, the main thing I have learned after becoming a parent is how desperate one is to protect one's children.
AMEN!!!!!!!

When we first realized something was very wrong with our son I still remember almost vomiting in the doctor's office because I was so scared. I can barely even think about that awful day without crying.

Having children is wonderful-it is a life chaging experience. It can also be terrifying because until you actually have a child nothing can prepare for the depth of feelings you have about them being healthy and safe.

So while it is great to think about what you will and won't do as a Mom, don't mistake your ideals with other people's reality.

As an aside-at 16 my Mom could have said water was wet and I would have disagreed. Lots and lots of teens argue about what parents think are right for lots and lots of reasons and many of those reasons don't come from well thought out decisions. They come from being ornery and difficult and well-teenagers!!


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## enkmom (Aug 30, 2004)

As my children moved from childhood into their teen years, I tried to become more of a consultant than a manager. I respect their right to make decisions about their own bodies, and don't pressure them unless I feel that there is a really good reason to do so. My daughter chose not to take the Gardisil vaccine, even under heavy pressure from her CNP, and she does not choose to medicate her ADD at this time. I asked both of my children to get the flu shot, but neither has done so at this time. So in this sense, I agree with you. Teens have the right to make decisions about their own bodies.

BUT! I never, ever take kindly to a lecture from anyone about how to raise my own children. I have endured plenty of lectures about why my children don't have a curfew, why I signed for one to get a piercing at 17, why I let them drive hours away to a concert and spend the night. and on and on. I respect the rights of other parents to raise their children the way they want to and I expect others to respect mine.

The biggest lesson I have learned as a parent, and what you will learn someday, is that there is no one "right" way to do the job. We all do the best we can.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithsstuff* 
lol, I love that you told them how hard it is to be a teen. I'm sure the mother who was a blind woman thought the teen years were a breeze.

I believe the OP is also blind, although I could be mixing her up with another poster.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, though. IME, _many_ adults look back on the teens and think they're a breeze. I've lost track of how many times I've heard people comment about the teens being "the best years" of one's life or wishing they were 17 again, because life was so much better. And, people who had problems outside the norm (such as blindness) often (not always) tend to assume that if they hadn't had that problem, their teens would have been easy, so _obviously_, anybody who doesn't have their problem doesn't have any problems at all.

I have no idea whether any of this applies to the woman in the OP, but it's not at all uncommon for adults to think the teens are easy. Selective memory or something, I guess.


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## Tigeresse (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karne* 
But that's the point, right? At 18 she will be responsible, at least in the legal sense, for her decision making and all the rationale behind it. If she decides never to get another flu shot, that's her choice, as an adult. Ultimately, as a minor, her well being is in the care of her parents.

In our home, dd would never "choose" to get a flu shot. I wouldn't either, nor would DH. But another of my kids is very high risk, and as a family we need to do what we can to protect him, so we get flu shots, among the zillion other things, not vax related, that are part of our arsenal.

If someone felt I was being small minded, or mainstream, and told me about it, so be it. That person has the luxury of not living in my family, not holding responsibility for a kid w/ a chronic illness, and not having to make the tough choices. Someone hopefully will clue them into how rude it is to act in that manner.

Yes, I agree that as a minor, the final decision rests with the parents. However, at 16 as a child is learning how to manage a long term, chronic condition she needs to be involved and respected wrt her medical care. What are her reasons for not wanting the flu shot?

I do not believe parents who chose to raise their kids differently than mine are small-minded or mainstream (as if that is a bad word). I would not engage in the type of conversation the OP described unless my opinion was invited. I keep my mouth shut. However, I do *have* an opinion and that is that a 16yo teenager is old enough to have a say in her medical care. She may not get everything she wants or doesn't want, but she needs to be heard.

I do have a "high-risk" 17.5 yo child. I have told him I will not authorize a flu shot for him, based on my own research. He has also been told that if he feels differently on the matter, we will discuss it, and of course the decision is his in 6 short months. He has not questioned it. So, I have both exercised my parental authority wrt a medical decision while also demonstrating that my views on the flu vax are not the only ones out there.


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## Pavlovs (Dec 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karne* 
In our home, dd would never "choose" to get a flu shot. I wouldn't either, nor would DH. *But another of my kids is very high risk, and as a family we need to do what we can to protect him,* so we get flu shots, among the zillion other things, not vax related, that are part of our arsenal.

If someone felt I was being small minded, or mainstream, and told me about it, so be it. *That person has the luxury of not living in my family, not holding responsibility for a kid w/ a chronic illness, and not having to make the tough choices.* Someone hopefully will clue them into how rude it is to act in that manner.

Bolding is mine.

Hear hear! My son has type 1 diabetes (and has had it since 6 months old), and while I do delayed vaxing, I had to change what I thought we'd be doing about vaxing and flu shots based on his diagnosis. It must be nice to not have to worry about those decisions. I hope all mamas know that we all love our children and make choices based on that love. I sure would hate to be judged because I didn't do A, B, or C that another mama chooses to do. Heck, if there were only one right way to parent we'd all be doing the same thing. But the reality is that we have to do what's right for us, for our family, given ALL of the circumstances life throws our way.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
I'm so proud of myself that I've calmed down a lot. I find that doing things this way gets me much better results. I don't feel such an utter hatred when I speak with mainstream parents, as I used to; however, it does not change the fact that I feel so strongly about my beliefs and convictions to be child centered. I'm just so glad I can have such strong discussions without losing control of my emotions. It feels so good.

Though I completely disagree with you about the subject of the conversation you had,







I still completely get what you mean about being proud of your response. Good job! I know how hard that is, and I've made similar progress myself. I agree, it feels so good!


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Personally, I agree with you (op), for my children. But I'll tell you right now that *before* I had children, I was completely on the opposite side of the fence. I thought that children should be forced into things and forced to conform and didn't necessarily think of them as people. I had a lot of grand ideas about how I intended to parent, and then I actually *was* a parent, and things changed... drastically. It's funny, sort of, though, because I really agreed with my MIL's parenting style until I got here and now I'm practically an opposite to her style. It's caused some issues. But anyway... I have to agree with the other posters who pointed out how drastically becoming a parent changes your entire way of viewing the world.

Man, if I had known that my kids would be unvaccinated *before* I had kids? I probably would have freaked out and sterilized myself because I would have thought I was going to be a terrible parent. But, I think I'm a pretty good parent and I'm glad I looked into the depth of the facts for myself (but I acknowledge that other people can easily come to the opposite conclusion than I did). That said, I still worry about my kids...


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
.

Having children is wonderful-it is a life chaging experience. It can also be terrifying because until you actually have a child nothing can prepare for the depth of feelings you have about them being healthy and safe.

So while it is great to think about what you will and won't do as a Mom, don't mistake your ideals with other people's reality.


Well said. What's that saying? "I was a perfect parent until I had children







"

Setting aside the whole vax discussion, there are going to be times when you gotta do things your kids don't want. Sure as kids get older it's important to include their feelings and thoughts on issues involving them but ultimately, the parent has to make the final decision. If kids/teens could decide everything for themselves then parenting sure as heck would be a lot easier!


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## noobmom (Jan 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LaLaLaLa* 
In my experience, when kids don't want to get shots, it's because they are afraid of the shot itself, not that they have done extensive research about the effects of a vaccine.

This. I'm all for kids having some control over their bodies, but was this teenager actually making an informed decision? When I make medical decisions for my children, I don't make them lightly. And I would not allow my child to make their own decisions without good reason either.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

The responses on this thread have really surprised me!

I'm in my twenties, so I remember _very clearly_ being sixteen. In fact, at sixteen, I was already dating Dh. I started college on a full scholarship at 17, and was really living a pretty fully "adult" life (complete with a great relationship with my parents) from that point onward. Without question, I was probably more mature than the average teenager (no sex before marriage, I didn't drink until I was married, blah blah), but really---

I would have been LIVID if my parents had tried to force a medical decision on me against my will at sixteen! I honestly can't think of much that would have made me feel more helpless and violated.

I have a lot of very strong opinions about medical issues. I'm anti-hormonal BCP, anti-gardasil, anti-lots of other mainstream stuff. Hopefully, by the time DD is 16, we will have a good enough relationship and will have talked about these issues enough that she will choose to involve me in medical decisions and/or make the decisions I would expect/hope her to make.

IMO, even 13 is very different than 16. This is clearly a gray area. If my 14 yo had cancer, and we had to decide between treatments, or something like that... I have no idea what I would do. I certainly HOPE that I would strongly consider the child's wishes and go along with them as much as possible (because, you know, there's always a possibility that the PARENT is wrong). I would certainly not be the first parent to force a child through incredible, futile suffering just because *I* can't stand the idea of losing him/her.

That, however, is very different than *forcing* a 16 yo to get a vaccine, or making her get a pap smear, etc, etc. I REALLY think that the most I would feel comfortable doing in that situation is saying, "DD, I feel strongly that you should do X, but it's your body, it's up to you."


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
The responses on this thread have really surprised me!

I'm in my twenties, so I remember very clearly being sixteen. In fact, at sixteen, I was already dating Dh. I started college on a full scholarship at 17, and was really living a pretty fully "adult" life (complete with a great relationship with my parents) from that point onward. Without question, I was probably more mature than the average teenager (no sex before marriage, I didn't drink until I was married, blah blah), but really---

I would have been LIVID if my parents had tried to force a medical decision on me against my will at sixteen! I honestly can't think of much that would have made me feel more helpless and violated.

I have a lot of very strong opinions about medical issues. I'm anti-hormonal BCP, anti-gardasil, anti-lots of other mainstream stuff. Hopefully, by the time DD is 16, we will have a good enough relationship and will have talked about these issues enough that she will choose to involve me in medical decisions and/or make the decisions I would expect/hope her to make.

IMO, even 13 is very different than 16. This is clearly a gray area. If my 14 yo had cancer, and we had to decide between treatments, or something like that... I have no idea what I would do. I certainly HOPE that I would strongly consider the child's wishes and go along with them as much as possible (because, you know, there's always a possibility that the PARENT is wrong). I would certainly not be the first parent to force a child through incredible, futile suffering just because I can't stand the idea of losing him/her.

That, however, is very different than *forcing* a 16 yo to get a vaccine, or making her get a pap smear, etc, etc. I REALLY think that the most I would feel comfortable doing in that situation is saying, "DD, I feel strongly that you should do X, but it's your body, it's up to you."

Well in all fairness we only have a third party account of the story. We have no idea what reasons are that the 16 year old gave for not wanting the shot, or the details of the discussion she and her parents had, and we have no idea what level of "force" was used. We do know that the child has asthma which does put her at higher risk of complications from the flu. Personally, I wouldn't feel right passing judgment on them or their choice with the information we have nor could I say what I would do in their shoes.


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## GardenStream (Aug 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
I'd be offended if someone who doesn't even have kids started offering me a lecture on how to be a better parent.

In theory I actually agree with the OP on respecting a 16 year old's wishes.

That being said, I would be extremely offended if someone tried to tell me how to parent my child, especially if that person had no children. I would probably forgive a close friend if they had pulled that on me, but I would always remember it. If the person was just an acquaintance, I probably wouldn't speak to them again. I wouldn't hate them or wish them ill-will, but I wouldn't associate with them again.

I did the same thing with one close friend before I had children







. I have since apologized to her. I still don't agree with the decision she made, but now that I'm a parent I understand the position I put her in. It was not my place to tell her how to parent her child, she did nothing immoral or illegal, and I have 100% confidence that her actions were out of love for her child. I'm not sure I would have been as gracious as my friend was had I been in her place.


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
If something is troubling you, and you talk to a friend about it, you don't want any feedback at all? I see no point in talking, then. That's like talking to a wall. All I'm saying is that you can't expect that people will always give you the responses that will make you feel better.

Really? Sometimes it feels good to get stuff off your chest especially if a problem has been bothering you and as friend you can learn when to just listen and when to give an opinion.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baltic_ballet* 
Really? Sometimes it feels good to get stuff off your chest especially if a problem has been bothering you and as friend you can learn when to just listen and when to give an opinion.

Sorry, I can't relate. If I don't want any sort of outside opinion or comment, it doesn't make me feel better to tell someone my troubles.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baltic_ballet* 
Really? Sometimes it feels good to get stuff off your chest especially if a problem has been bothering you and as friend you can learn when to just listen and when to give an opinion.

Yeah that. I'm usually careful about who I vent to if I know they are strongly against what I am venting about though.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
The responses on this thread have really surprised me!

They've really surprised me, too. For the most part, they haven't shown a difference in how a parent should treat a 2 year old and a teen.

Quote:

I'm anti-hormonal BCP, anti-gardasil, anti-lots of other mainstream stuff. Hopefully, by the time DD is 16, we will have a good enough relationship and will have talked about these issues enough that she will choose to involve me in medical decisions and/or make the decisions I would expect/hope her to make.
As my DD gets older, I mostly just want her to make informed choices based on loving and caring about herself. The specifics aren't so important. When I listen to parents who kids are just slightly older than mine and the issues they are dealing with, getting all freaked out over a flu shot seems pretty silly.









And if my DD ever decided that hormonal BC with the right thing for her, I'd want her to let me know and I'd want her to have full access. Her having control over her body and her fertility is SO much more important to me than her ~doing everything my way.~

I feel that when I treat my DD with respect I'm teaching her to do the same, and that is so much more important any single medical decision.


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SactoMommy* 
Yeah that. I'm usually careful about who I vent to if I know they are strongly against what I am venting about though.

It doesn't sound like they knew she was strongly against vaccinations until after they vented.


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## sept15lija (Jun 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
They've really surprised me, too. For the most part, they haven't shown a difference in how a parent should treat a 2 year old and a teen.

I agree. My DS is almost 2 so I have no experience in parenting a teen, but I remember being fairly mature and responsible at 16. Obviously we don't know all the specifics, but if my child came to me and had researched reasons why s/he did not want to get the flu shot, I would certainly respect their decision. It is their body and therefore IMO, as long as it is an informed one, their choice.


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## KimberlyD0 (Mar 8, 2009)

thank goodness may parents didn't let me make choices about my body for myself when I was 16. I would be covered in head to toe in tatoos and pireced all over









My child will be expected to follow my rules while in my home, I'll let them voice their opinions and their idea's, but ultamitly I will make the final choice for them.

I am the parent, thats my job.

If someone lectured me like you did them, especially if they didn't even have kids I would be extreamly angry. I sure wouldn't talk to them again. Thats so disrespectful.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sept15lija* 
I agree. My DS is almost 2 so I have no experience in parenting a teen, but I remember being fairly mature and responsible at 16. Obviously we don't know all the specifics, but if my child came to me and had researched reasons why s/he did not want to get the flu shot, I would certainly respect their decision. It is their body and therefore IMO, as long as it is an informed one, their choice.

DS1 doesn't have to make an informed decision. I frequently don't. If he doesn't want a vax, that's fine. If he does, that's fine. It's not my decision.


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## caj (Nov 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KimberlyD0* 
My child will be expected to follow my rules while in my home, I'll let them voice their opinions and their idea's, but ultamitly I will make the final choice for them.

I am the parent, thats my job.

If someone lectured me like you did them, especially if they didn't even have kids I would be extreamly angry. I sure wouldn't talk to them again. Thats so disrespectful.

I agree 100%, having children is a different thing, I used to think in a very different way before having Celeste.

But at 16, I was very mature for my age. I had lousy parents and I basically had to take care of my younger sisters by myself. Thank god I got out of there and moved on. But my daughter is being raised in a different way and she's not going to be the same way I was at that age...
So her making choices about her body at that age, is out of the question...


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

So peoples' opinions don't count if they don't have kids? That's a very narrow view. Some of the worst parenting advice I've ever gotten has been from other parents. Maybe someone who can step outside just their emotions over their own child situation and look at it objectively as an outsider would have a good view? Anyone ever think of that?


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)




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## KimberlyD0 (Mar 8, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kittywitty* 
So peoples' opinions don't count if they don't have kids? That's a very narrow view. Some of the worst parenting advice I've ever gotten has been from other parents. Maybe someone who can step outside just their emotions over their own child situation and look at it objectively as an outsider would have a good view? Anyone ever think of that?

An opinion or advice when ASKED is one thing. A lecture like the OP gave is another. Untill you have kids you can't know what parenting is really like.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kittywitty* 
So peoples' opinions don't count if they don't have kids? That's a very narrow view. Some of the worst parenting advice I've ever gotten has been from other parents. Maybe someone who can step outside just their emotions over their own child situation and look at it objectively as an outsider would have a good view? Anyone ever think of that?

Personally, I'd never give unsolicited advice to a parent if I didn't have children. I'd also not give advice on certain other subjects if I didn't yet have experience. There are just certain aspects of life that you need to do before you teach









Quote:


Originally Posted by *KimberlyD0* 
An opinion or advice when ASKED is one thing. A lecture like the OP gave is another. Untill you have kids you can't know what parenting is really like.

I agree. I think just about every parent I know had a different view on what parenting was like before they had kids, myself included.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caj* 
But at 16, I was very mature for my age. I had lousy parents and I basically had to take care of my younger sisters by myself. ... But my daughter is being raised in a different way and she's not going to be the same way I was at that age...
So her making choices about her body at that age, is out of the question...

So because your Dd has always been loved and supported she will be LESS mature at 16?

I had a crappy childhood and left home as a teen. While I was independant, I find in many ways my kids are more mature at the same ages. They are more balanced, reasonable, and better able to understand long term consequences. I was a survivor, but they are truly thriving.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kittywitty* 
So peoples' opinions don't count if they don't have kids? ... Maybe someone who can step outside just their emotions over their own child situation and look at it objectively as an outsider would have a good view? Anyone ever think of that?

A couple of my friends don't have kids and I find that they are super to talk to because they can see things better from my kids' points of view. It's so easy to get caught up in the mother thing that we forget that these are humans beings we are raising.









Personally, I think it is far more radical to assume that by practicing AP our kids will be ready to make all sorts of good choices for themselves in the teen years than to assume that we need to dictate every little thing to them as long as the law allows. Heck, that's just mainstream parenting.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Interesting. In some places in the world, a 16 y.o. has reached the age of consent for informed medical decision-making. It wouldn't stop some parents from pressuring the teen into making a particular decision.

If, however, the medical professional knew that the teenager hadn't consented to treatment, there's a pretty good legal argument that s/he has violated the law.

I'm leaving aside whether I think vaccines, and the H1N1 vaccine in particular, is a good idea. Since it still isn't available to me or my family, I'm not too worried about whether we should/shouldn't get it. I expect we'll actually have the flu before we can even line up for the shot.


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## sept15lija (Jun 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
DS1 doesn't have to make an informed decision. I frequently don't. If he doesn't want a vax, that's fine. If he does, that's fine. It's not my decision.

I would probably lean your way too, but I would prefer that he know what he was making a decision about, it would call for some discussion, but in the end I agree with you, I would respect his decision. I just don't get treating a 16 year old like a child, they are not a child and should be given guidance but not absolutes, after all they will be legally be an adult in very short order.


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## Sk8ermaiden (Feb 13, 2008)

Hmm, I agree with the OP's view on handling vaxes with children. Once my child is old enough to really think about things (high school maybe), I plan to leave vaccinations up to them. Of course, this is assuming I have relatively healthy, thoughtful children - if I felt they were to immature to make the decision, I would make it for them.

However, that is my view on MY family dynamic, and I understand that other parents will feel differently - that there is only one right choice and it is their job to make it to protect their children. I can respect that, just like I can respect people who research vaccines and still choose to get them all.

It actually sounds like her parents put thought into the reasons she should get the flu shot, which is a lot more than I can say for most parents, and would actually make me respect them more. They feel the risk is too great. Sure, I'd feel bad her wishes weren't respected, but once she's 18 she can choose to no longer get the shot.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sept15lija* 
I would probably lean your way too, but I would prefer that he know what he was making a decision about, it would call for some discussion, but in the end I agree with you, I would respect his decision. I just don't get treating a 16 year old like a child, they are not a child and should be given guidance but not absolutes, after all they will be legally be an adult in very short order.

I think that at 16, my kids opinion should hold some weight and I would take it into consideration for sure. But it also depends on exactly what decision is being made. If I had an immunocompromised teen who just didn't want to get a shot because it hurt than we might have to have a discussion on how secondary infections can kill.

However, a healthy teen who researched the issue and presented a good arguement? Sure I'd let them make a decision.

As my child grows older, I want him to think and reason for himself. That's part of growing up and maturing. However, part of my job as a parent is recognizing when he is not quite mature enough yet to make some decisions.


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