# Revisionist history...



## mischievium (Feb 9, 2003)

Does anyone else struggle with this? I feel like the last few days of my pregnancy and parts of the pregnancy as a whole are slowly becoming tainted with my feelings of regret and guilt. Like I should have known that the fact that Soren was a mellow baby (i.e.: not super active) in the womb was a sign that something might be wrong and not a personality thing. I mean, I did wonder at times, but I was also told that having an anterior placenta would dampen his movement (or my perception of it) and that babies are very different in terms of their activity level.

I think about the last time I can be absolutely sure I felt him move and I wonder if he was struggling and that's why he moved so much right then. At the time, I was reassured by his movement. Now, I'm haunted by it.

I think about my last few yoga classes and wonder if I shouldn't have done the "legs up the wall" pose, that maybe that shifted him in a way he shouldn't have been shifted.

I think about the NST I had on the Friday before his birth and think that I was in denial since I allowed myself to be reassured by it. The reality is more complicated than just being in denial-- I wanted him to be okay, a professional was telling me he was okay, and the voice of doubt in my head could have been either intuition or fear. It's so hard, looking back now, not to think myself a fool. Not to wonder if I had voiced my fears more if maybe Soren could have been saved.

I don't know... we're still waiting to hear if there are any answers as to why this happened (pre-eclampsia? cord accident? something else?) and I am going through the probably very normal process of questioning everything. I just hope when I am done, I can remember the joy of being pregnant. It's so hard not to let my feelings now color what I remember of then.


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## MI_Dawn (Jun 30, 2005)

Yes.

Not surprisingly, I suppose, my thoughts follow yours. I'm doing the same second-guessing and playing what if. You did more than I did, Mama. I was in prodromal labor for five days. Did that exhaust him? *I* was certainly exhausted, and it was totally out of my pattern, like my body was persistently trying to tell me, "_something's wrong, something's wrong._"

I played all the same mind games with myself - and my baby WAS active prior - _they slow down at the end. He's tired from all the labor. I'm so tired, I'm not noticing him moving as much. He's changed position and I can't feel him as much. He's getting bigger (ha - little 5lb peanut) and not able to kick as hard._ I didn't follow my intuition. I didn't go get a NST. I didn't rent a doppler. I THOUGHT of these things. I did finally call my MW. On a day a KNOW he was alive. But I decided to wait until we had our appt on Wed. I mean... it was only a few days... and labor seemed to be coming...

And I had a flurry of activity I remember, too. I was SO reassured by it. _THERE you are, William. Thank god, where have you been, baby? Whew, you scared Mommy._ And then it was over, and for a while, everything was fine in my head. But the movement didn't come again that way. Not like that. Contractions did. Things I thought were movements. Phantom kicks, maybe. But not like that. I think they were the last moments he was alive, and I didn't know.

And I, like you, wonder if he suffered, am haunted by that thought. Was he in pain? Please, god, let it have been quick and painless. Please let him have just gone to sleep. Please don't let those last few moments have been a struggle for my sweet little baby boy. Was I rejoicing in that moment, in that movement, at the moment of his death? I know it's sick, morbid, horrible... and I'll never know... but I think it. I can't deny I'm entertaining the thought.


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## mischievium (Feb 9, 2003)

Oh, Dawn







. I'm not sure I did do more.


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## SMR (Dec 21, 2004)

I felt the same way, and 7 months later still have those thoughts.. why didn't I know? I mean, I KNEW.. but I thought being 39weeks, he's just slowing down, getting ready for birth! He was never a SUPER active little guy.. but still I DID notice the decrease in movement.. I remember thinking about it at a friends party the friday night before he was born (born on a monday/tuesday 1am) and then I felt him hiccup, and friends felt him.. and I felt so relieved! The weekend was busy, we went to the orchard, I kept poking at my stomach all day, but I'm sure I felt him at some point that day.. but still it took all day monday, and my husband saying lets go to the hospital befoe I'd do anything! I wonder if I knew what the outcome would be and didn't want to REALLY know.. I still wonder if I had really paid attention and not though everything would be fine (stillbirths don't happen to ME, right?) I would have gone in on Friday and maybe he'd be here?? I dont' think like that often, because it's kind of a useless thought. I don't feel much guilt, but sometimes it's there.. mostly beacause I'm his mom, I should have known something was wrong!


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## namaste_mom (Oct 21, 2005)

(((huGS))) for both you mammas. It is so normal to question every little detail. I felt guilty for not recognizing Norah died for at least a year. Only recently have I let it go. I too hoped she was not in pain. I played those days over and over and over again in mt head at night especially. What helped a lot was for me to keep a journal to Norah pouring out all of my emotions to her -- pain, grief, sadness, joy, anger, everything.


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## Amy&4girls (Oct 30, 2006)

I'm so sorry you are going through this. I went through all this when I lost my son. It took me several years to let most of it go. I will admit that it still comes and goes though. I agree that writing out ALL of your thoughts/feelings to your baby helps you to deal w/them. I am just so very sorry you are facing this now.


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## NullSet (Dec 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
Was I rejoicing in that moment, in that movement, at the moment of his death? I know it's sick, morbid, horrible... and I'll never know... but I think it. I can't deny I'm entertaining the thought.

It's been a while for me but this haunts me still. I had the same flurry of movement. For me it was Weds night as I fell asleep with dh and my hands on my belly. I do the same thing, wondering whether I was feeling her die. God, you all are getting me to write things I have never written. Such a raw feeling to open this up again, but it isn't something I have talked about at all, only thought. And then the next morning she was gone. It was such a short time, I was in the OB's office by 11 am that morning. I had gone to bed around 2 a.m. so a span of 9 hours.

My inlaws were staying with us that Weds night too and I remember making a joke about old wives tales and about not raising your arms. Of course I waved my arms around only to have her die in the night.


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## SMR (Dec 21, 2004)

Amy
I think it's good to get it out, even now.


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## JayJay (Aug 1, 2008)

I do to some extent, but I cut myself off when I start to get too worried about what might have been, you know? If I had a time machine, things would be different, yes, sure, but I don't. Had we all been in hospital, the outcome would probably have been the same anyway, since all the signs I had were normal labor signs, and we had a strong heartbeat almost to the end. Nobody knew - the bleed was all concealed. The only way would have been to ave someone come back from the future and say "hey, something isn't right here even though everything is within normal parameters".

No possible though. Plus gosh, you know and I know that all of us would have saved our babies, had we had any idea what was going on. That goes without saying! That goes without saying.

Now I am left wondering though, if I am "okay" inside and can have another baby. I don't think I will believe that I can, really, until I see another positive pregnancy test. I still have all of Josie's in my desk drawer right in front of me. They were so unbelievable that I had to take many just to make myself believe.

I hope I get that chance again...

*HUGE hugs* to you mama - you're not unusual in any way. You're a good mama. XXXXXXX


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## MI_Dawn (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JayJay* 
Now I am left wondering though, if I am "okay" inside and can have another baby. I don't think I will believe that I can, really, until I see another positive pregnancy test. I still have all of Josie's in my desk drawer right in front of me. They were so unbelievable that I had to take many just to make myself believe.

I hope I get that chance again...

I hope you do, too.







: I still have William's pg test in my night table drawer, too, actually. I had a loss (was barely pg, faint line, then bled, but still) the cycle before him, and was sooo thrilled that these were positively darkly positive!

My MW told me, after she lost her baby to SIDS at 8 wks, that it was having another baby that really helped to heal her completely. (Well, as "completely" as it gets...) It seems to be a natural response... women who lose a baby like this seem to want another baby NOW. I actually angrily thought that, as I was watching three nurses and an u/s tech look at my dead baby on the screen... I knew what they were going to tell me, although they hadn't told me yet, and I had the conscious thought. "Forget this, I'm having another one!" I hadn't even had the time to register that the baby was gone or begin to feel his loss... I just knew I wanted a BABY. My body wanted it. Now, thankyouverymuch. And if (insert higher power here) was going to take that from me, I was going to defy them and have another.

I know it was just a reaction... but I was really surprised to read stillbirth stories and hear women say they felt the same, very soon after they found out the baby was gone. Most of them were entertaining it long before they opened their mouths and voiced that longing.

I thank god my body will hold me back from impulsively acting... because I know, making that decision now, and three months from now, will come from a totally different place...


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## SMR (Dec 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
I hope you do, too.







: I still have William's pg test in my night table drawer, too, actually. I had a loss (was barely pg, faint line, then bled, but still) the cycle before him, and was sooo thrilled that these were positively darkly positive!

My MW told me, after she lost her baby to SIDS at 8 wks, that it was having another baby that really helped to heal her completely. (Well, as "completely" as it gets...) It seems to be a natural response... women who lose a baby like this seem to want another baby NOW. I actually angrily thought that, as I was watching three nurses and an u/s tech look at my dead baby on the screen... I knew what they were going to tell me, although they hadn't told me yet, and I had the conscious thought. "Forget this, I'm having another one!" I hadn't even had the time to register that the baby was gone or begin to feel his loss... I just knew I wanted a BABY. My body wanted it. Now, thankyouverymuch. And if (insert higher power here) was going to take that from me, I was going to defy them and have another.

I know it was just a reaction... but I was really surprised to read stillbirth stories and hear women say they felt the same, very soon after they found out the baby was gone. Most of them were entertaining it long before they opened their mouths and voiced that longing.

I thank god my body will hold me back from impulsively acting... because I know, making that decision now, and three months from now, will come from a totally different place...

I knew too Dawn. Before Dresden was even taken from my body, I was asking the midwife when we can try again. I think it's the only thing you can do to feel proactive - like you have control over something at the time. When she told me that for the 'best' outcome I should wait 18 months between births.. I knew then and there that I could NOT wait 9 months just to TRY! I had one period and got pregnant a little over 3 months after Dresden was born.. this baby shares his due date! Amazing.


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## mischievium (Feb 9, 2003)

I'm struggling with the desire to be pregnant RIGHT NOW, too. The practical part of me knows how long nine months feels (and can guess how much longer it's going to feel next time due to my added anxiety) and just wants to get the show on the road already. I think a piece of that is having dealt with infertility, I am afraid that I won't get pregnant as easily as I did last time (we conceived on our first IUI/ Clomid cycle). I'm afraid it's going to take several cycles, or possibly IVF this time. It's going to be a bit before my DH is ready to try again-- seeing me have a seizure out of "nowhere" really scared him. But, I think that being pregnant again will be an important part of my healing and finding hope again. While I recognize that waiting a few months to let my body heal and find out whether there are any "reasons" for the late-term loss (I think there is blood work I have to wait until 6wks postpartum to do), it's not going to be easy for me to wait much longer than that.

My DH and a grief counselor at the hopsital both mentioned needing to come up with a "game plan" for the next several months. Well, having Soren was my "game plan." We had just bought our first house and moved and I got pregnant within days of being here. I decided not to get a job because I really didn't want to start a new job while dealing with morning sickness and, being an RN, I didn't want to have to try and learn a whole new unit and their policies and rationales for why they do things the way they do only to go on maternity leave as soon as I had learned it all. Now, I don't really know what I'm going to do. I can't see going back to the NICU right now. I can't take care of other people's babies when I really just want to be taking care of my own. And, yet, staying home alone all day is not going to be good for me either.

Sorry this veered off-topic quite a bit.


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## SMR (Dec 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mischievium* 
I'm struggling with the desire to be pregnant RIGHT NOW, too. The practical part of me knows how long nine months feels (and can guess how much longer it's going to feel next time due to my added anxiety) and just wants to get the show on the road already. I think a piece of that is having dealt with infertility, I am afraid that I won't get pregnant as easily as I did last time (we conceived on our first IUI/ Clomid cycle). I'm afraid it's going to take several cycles, or possibly IVF this time. It's going to be a bit before my DH is ready to try again-- seeing me have a seizure out of "nowhere" really scared him. But, I think that being pregnant again will be an important part of my healing and finding hope again. While I recognize that waiting a few months to let my body heal and find out whether there are any "reasons" for the late-term loss (I think there is blood work I have to wait until 6wks postpartum to do), it's not going to be easy for me to wait much longer than that.

My DH and a grief counselor at the hopsital both mentioned needing to come up with a "game plan" for the next several months. Well, having Soren was my "game plan." We had just bought our first house and moved and I got pregnant within days of being here. I decided not to get a job because I really didn't want to start a new job while dealing with morning sickness and, being an RN, I didn't want to have to try and learn a whole new unit and their policies and rationales for why they do things the way they do only to go on maternity leave as soon as I had learned it all. Now, I don't really know what I'm going to do. I can't see going back to the NICU right now. I can't take care of other people's babies when I really just want to be taking care of my own. And, yet, staying home alone all day is not going to be good for me either.

Sorry this veered off-topic quite a bit.

I said the same thing.. "GET THE SHOW ON THE ROAD" 9 months is already SOOOO long.. I hated the thought of adding onto that. I hope you get pregnant again easily. I had a friend who tried for 5 years, then got pregnant on clomid and just recently got pregnant her FIRST try with no drugs!!


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## MI_Dawn (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mischievium* 
I can't see going back to the NICU right now. I can't take care of other people's babies when I really just want to be taking care of my own.

eek. I can't imagine.







I'm not sure it's a good idea to put that in the "game plan." Game plan. Feh. My current game plan involves getting out of bed and taking a shower at some point during each day and that's... about... it. How in the heck are you supposed to make a "game plan" in this state? I can't even remember how to brush my damned teeth.

As for veering, hey, it was your thread, veer away...


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## jess_paez (Jul 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
eek. I can't imagine.







I'm not sure it's a good idea to put that in the "game plan." Game plan. Feh. My current game plan involves getting out of bed and taking a shower at some point during each day and that's... about... it. How in the heck are you supposed to make a "game plan" in this state? I can't even remember how to brush my damned teeth.

As for veering, hey, it was your thread, veer away...









oh yes, i remember those days. i woke up (because i just couldn't sleep any longer-it was 2 or 3 pm or LATER) and i showered, dressed and went to the wine store. thank the higher power i was able to have the house cleaned and the laundry done. that was all a part of keepin' busy i suppose...........oh boy,....hard times.


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## expatmommy (Nov 7, 2006)

I hear you on the whole game plan thing. We just moved and 3 weeks later I found out I was pregnant. I didn't know a soul. My plan for the 2 years we are supposed to live here were: get pregnant & take care of a newborn. How do you sort out a game plan when your perfect plans are shattered and you have no other reference point? I'm 2 months into this journey & it is very hard. The first month I did not much more then try to sleep & try to eat & try not to alienate my other kids by my total lack of ability to be a present parent. And I read, read, read; knowing other people had walked the same path & not fallen apart completely was bolstering.


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## mischievium (Feb 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
eek. I can't imagine.







I'm not sure it's a good idea to put that in the "game plan." Game plan. Feh. My current game plan involves getting out of bed and taking a shower at some point during each day and that's... about... it. How in the heck are you supposed to make a "game plan" in this state? I can't even remember how to brush my damned teeth.

Thank you! And then yesterday I went for a follow-up appt. with the perinatologist who took care of me in the hospital and her nurse, who was in general very nice and caring, started asking me what I was doing with my days while I was standing at the counter making another appointment. I explained that I hadn't been working since we moved here and there was no way I could go back to the NICU and my only other interests in medicine would be in L&D, postpartum, etc., but there was no way I could do any of that right now. She got that, but said, "Well, it's not going to be good for you to sit around all day." Maybe some of the anger is starting to kick in, but it really took every ounce of civility I had not to respond, "No, $hit."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jess_paez* 
oh yes, i remember those days. i woke up (because i just couldn't sleep any longer-it was 2 or 3 pm or LATER) and i showered, dressed and went to the wine store. thank the higher power i was able to have the house cleaned and the laundry done. that was all a part of keepin' busy i suppose...........oh boy,....hard times.
















I'm struggling with the sleeping, too. It's just so temping to sleep as long as I possibly can, so there are fewer hours in the day to try and figure out what to do with. Fewer hours to be sad.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expatmommy* 
I hear you on the whole game plan thing. We just moved and 3 weeks later I found out I was pregnant. I didn't know a soul. My plan for the 2 years we are supposed to live here were: get pregnant & take care of a newborn. *How do you sort out a game plan when your perfect plans are shattered and you have no other reference point?* I'm 2 months into this journey & it is very hard. The first month I did not much more then try to sleep & try to eat & try not to alienate my other kids by my total lack of ability to be a present parent. And I read, read, read; knowing other people had walked the same path & not fallen apart completely was bolstering.

Exactly. I don't even know where to start. I don't feel like I'm really fit to be around anyone other than friends or family so that I don't have to explain myself. What do I tell people I don't know now when they ask what I do for a living? I can't really explain the gap in employment without explaining about Soren and I'm just not ready to talk about it with people I don't know.


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## SMR (Dec 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mischievium* 
Thank you! And then yesterday I went for a follow-up appt. with the perinatologist who took care of me in the hospital and her nurse, who was in general very nice and caring, started asking me what I was doing with my days while I was standing at the counter making another appointment. I explained that I hadn't been working since we moved here and there was no way I could go back to the NICU and my only other interests in medicine would be in L&D, postpartum, etc., but there was no way I could do any of that right now. She got that, but said, "Well, it's not going to be good for you to sit around all day." Maybe some of the anger is starting to kick in, but it really took every ounce of civility I had not to respond, "No, $hit."

I'm struggling with the sleeping, too. It's just so temping to sleep as long as I possibly can, so there are fewer hours in the day to try and figure out what to do with. Fewer hours to be sad.

Exactly. I don't even know where to start. I don't feel like I'm really fit to be around anyone other than friends or family so that I don't have to explain myself. What do I tell people I don't know now when they ask what I do for a living? I can't really explain the gap in employment without explaining about Soren and I'm just not ready to talk about it with people I don't know.

Just take it easy.. right now you don't need a plan.. I remember how hard it was for me to see people I wasn't close with right after Dresden died. I dreaded seeing the neighbors.. who were no doubt wondering where we were going WITH NO baby!? Try spending some time outside, just in nature... it's so peaceful, it helped me a lot in the early days.


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## MI_Dawn (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mischievium* 
Exactly. I don't even know where to start. I don't feel like I'm really fit to be around anyone other than friends or family so that I don't have to explain myself. What do I tell people I don't know now when they ask what I do for a living? I can't really explain the gap in employment without explaining about Soren and I'm just not ready to talk about it with people I don't know.

I keep hearing that term, "Be gentle with yourself." It always sounded strange to me before, but now I get it. I feel really, really fragile. And I think we are. Everything hurts... it's like our nerve endings are on the outside and everything rubs the wrong way. It's that way for anyone grieving anything, but when you add the hormones of birth, and after birth!? Come on! How are we supposed to resume "normal life" when we're in this state? Seriously?

My sister called me today, and she said, Well when you said you would come for Easter, I knew you were ready to move into accepting what happened, and you'd be okay.

WTH? Are you kidding me? Acceptance? I'm so far from acceptance on the Kubler-Ross continuum, it's little more than a mirage on the horizon.

The last thing, the very last thing, I need is any pressure to _do_ anything right now. Okay, sitting around doing nothing is a bad idea, and I've managed to find things... like reading stories and blogs and books by mamas who have gone through this, and that's been so helpful. But sometimes... sometimes sitting around all day crying is all you can do. Sometimes there are gonna be those days.

All I can say is, trust your body, trust your process. Let things unfold. Don't let anyone convince you that you need to do anything. I think if you let yourself be... if you really are gentle with yourself... what you want to do will come. In time.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I called it the "what if?" game. It does take a long time to stop wondering how things could be different.

Hugs,

Philomom


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## bluewatergirl (Jul 26, 2007)

Me, too. Even now, it's hard, emotionally, to think back, to really remember the (seemingly, at the time) little things in the last week or so of my pregnancy with J.T.
For months afterwards I kept thinking "if only I had . . . ."
I remember remarking to my Dr. that he had slowed down a bit at my last appointment, 10 days before he died during labor and was born.
I've wondered ever since if it was "normal" slowing, or if he was in distress.
I never had a non-stress test. I've always wondered what *might be* now if my Dr. had sent me for one.
Also, the night before that appointment and several nights before that, J.T. woke both me and my DH from a sound sleep with his movements - as if he were doing acrobatics in there. In retrospect, I've wondered if he were already tangled in his cord at that point, and damage had been done - and what we felt those two times were actually seizures.
I know the night I went into labor and we felt him move strongly one last time we were probably feeling him dying. My then 21 month old daughter made this unearthly - I've never heard her do it before or since - cry in her sleep (she still slept next to my side of the bed) which I truly believe was her unconciously saying good-bye to her brother. I, too, have been haunted by what his last moments may have been like. But I have to believe that he was comforted by being held close and warm by my body and hearing our voices.


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## SMR (Dec 21, 2004)

Bluewatergirl - what you said about your dd just gave me chills. how amazing and beautiful, that she was so connected.


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## soulshine (Feb 2, 2007)

mischieviem,
you wrote about your pregnancy getting tainted by regrets and guilt. i have found in my own experience, with my daughter, there is a simultaneous existance of 'the way it was before'- meaning i was happy, the pregnancy was great, everything was wonderful... and then 'the way it turned out'- meaning she died, we didn't know why, and then the long list of questions that had no answers. i think a lot about what ended up happening, but i will *always* remember that she was a happy baby, she knew we loved her, and there was not one thing we could have done to change the outcome with the information we had at the time. so, what i am trying to say is that there WILL be regret and guilt. it is only natural to have those feelings. what happened to you was horrible. ALL the women who have lost babies that i have had contact with over the past 4 years have had the same regret and guilt. having said that, there will come a time when you will be able to separate the guilty stuff from the *facts*- that he knew you loved him, and that will never change. that is the most important.

as far as the regrets... i lived for a very long time not knowing what happened. i searched and searched, it tormented me. every little thing that i had done became suspect. and it caused me so much grief, in addition to the grief i was already feeling. i blamed myself for every little thing, but the fact is we all did all that we could have with the information we had. we had the best intentions. but the hard reality is that sometimes that does not matter. and to tell the truth, i still come back to those thoughts 'what if...' and 'was it something i did?', even though i know for a fact that it wasn't that way, i wasn't to blame, i still do it. (for instance, i thought i ate too many pb&j's in the 3rd trimester, maybe she died from anaphelactic shock from pb allergy? and then i thought, and still do, that the fact that i put epo near my cervix that last wk, wk41, that somehow i caused an infection that killed her. this is really hard stuff. i have never discussed it with my therapists, and i keep it deep down, because it is such a shameful thing to even consider that i could have done something to kill my own baby). if there was a way to prevent stillbirth, no babies would die. with my subsequent pregnancy, i had a way more medicalized pregnancy. i was high risk. there were issues. i was on bedrest for 17weeks. we were being monitored 2ce a week... his last biophysical profile, he was fine... scored 8 out of 8. and then, 2 days later, he died. just like that. with all that monitoring, with all the care i gave, carried him like he was made of glass. he was healthy baby, and then he died. sometimes, there is nothing you can do, even when you are doing everything that is out there to do.

MI Dawn,
you wrote about wondering if your son felt pain, or if he suffered. i have thought long and hard about this. what i have come up with is probably not. who knows for sure, but the fact is that our babies were so innocent and pure in their inutero state. they did not know what was going wrong, or right. they were existing in the simplest of states. they knew no fear. fear adds so much to the experience of pain, so i don't think that they could have felt pain the way we feel it, on the outside. many women have asked their dr's about this and the responses are usually that the baby just slips away, no pain, or it is instantaneous... no pain. no fear, no suffering, no pain. when i start to question that, i have to just remind myself how much love i felt for my babies, and that they were completely surrounded by that love. love is more powerful than pain.

mischievium,
you wrote about having 'the game plan'. i totally understand, as i felt the ame exact way... did not know what to do with myself, i was a mother with out her baby. it is a horrendous thing to have to experience. i would suggest to you that you already have a game plan... it is to grieve your son. each day that you get out of bed, breath in and out, and then go back to bed is a triumph. losing a baby is the worst!! i don't know why everyone wants and expects grieving parents to have a plan, to move on, to be distracted, to take a freaking vacation... nothing is going to mask the pain. i think they suggest these things to make THEMSELVES feel better about it. the death of a baby is a loss felt by everyone. it shouldn't happen. parents should outlive their children, and innocent babies should not die. when it happens though, i think it is too much for people to grasp, and they want it to 'go away'. so seeing the grieving parents getting back to their normal lives as quickly as possible makes everything feel 'normal' to them again. i think those people should back off! allow yourself to grieve. give your self the time that you need. life will roll on. there will be a time to get a job, make plans, work, etc etc. but you just lost your baby. it takes time, a long time, to grieve that loss. i eventually went back to work and spent a lot of time crying my eyes out locked in the bathroom at work. it is hard to transistion. there is no need to hurry this along, because it will come with time, and you need to grieve the loss now! it is so recent!


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## mischievium (Feb 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
I keep hearing that term, "Be gentle with yourself." It always sounded strange to me before, but now I get it. I feel really, really fragile. And I think we are. Everything hurts... it's like our nerve endings are on the outside and everything rubs the wrong way. It's that way for anyone grieving anything, but when you add the hormones of birth, and after birth!? Come on! How are we supposed to resume "normal life" when we're in this state? Seriously?

My sister called me today, and she said, Well when you said you would come for Easter, I knew you were ready to move into accepting what happened, and you'd be okay.

WTH? Are you kidding me? Acceptance? I'm so far from acceptance on the Kubler-Ross continuum, it's little more than a mirage on the horizon.

I feel that fragility, too. We went to the bank to close an account and the person helping us at one point asked me if I was okay. I just kind of stammered that I was tired. I was unprepared for the fact that it is so obvious to other people that I am not okay right now.

And re: your sister, seriously, WTH?! I mean, I know people want us to be okay and all, but you *just* lost your *baby*! "Acceptance" is going to take awhile.









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Originally Posted by *SMR* 
Just take it easy.. right now you don't need a plan.. I remember how hard it was for me to see people I wasn't close with right after Dresden died. I dreaded seeing the neighbors.. who were no doubt wondering where we were going WITH NO baby!? Try spending some time outside, just in nature... it's so peaceful, it helped me a lot in the early days.

I am dreading seeing the neighbors. Totally dreading it.

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Originally Posted by *bluewatergirl* 
Me, too. Even now, it's hard, emotionally, to think back, to really remember the (seemingly, at the time) little things in the last week or so of my pregnancy with J.T.
For months afterwards I kept thinking "if only I had . . . ."
I remember remarking to my Dr. that he had slowed down a bit at my last appointment, 10 days before he died during labor and was born.
I've wondered ever since if it was "normal" slowing, or if he was in distress.
I never had a non-stress test. I've always wondered what *might be* now if my Dr. had sent me for one.
Also, the night before that appointment and several nights before that, J.T. woke both me and my DH from a sound sleep with his movements - as if he were doing acrobatics in there. In retrospect, I've wondered if he were already tangled in his cord at that point, and damage had been done - and what we felt those two times were actually seizures.
I know the night I went into labor and we felt him move strongly one last time we were probably feeling him dying. My then 21 month old daughter made this unearthly - I've never heard her do it before or since - cry in her sleep (she still slept next to my side of the bed) which I truly believe was her unconciously saying good-bye to her brother. *I, too, have been haunted by what his last moments may have been like. But I have to believe that he was comforted by being held close and warm by my body and hearing our voices.*

(bolding mine) I hope that is the case, for all of our babies







.

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Originally Posted by *soulshine* 
mischieviem,
you wrote about your pregnancy getting tainted by regrets and guilt. i have found in my own experience, with my daughter, there is a simultaneous existance of 'the way it was before'- meaning i was happy, the pregnancy was great, everything was wonderful... and then 'the way it turned out'- meaning she died, we didn't know why, and then the long list of questions that had no answers. i think a lot about what ended up happening, but i will *always* remember that she was a happy baby, she knew we loved her, and there was not one thing we could have done to change the outcome with the information we had at the time. so, what i am trying to say is that there WILL be regret and guilt. it is only natural to have those feelings. what happened to you was horrible. ALL the women who have lost babies that i have had contact with over the past 4 years have had the same regret and guilt. having said that, there will come a time when you will be able to separate the guilty stuff from the *facts*- that he knew you loved him, and that will never change. that is the most important.

as far as the regrets... i lived for a very long time not knowing what happened. i searched and searched, it tormented me. every little thing that i had done became suspect. and it caused me so much grief, in addition to the grief i was already feeling. i blamed myself for every little thing, but the fact is we all did all that we could have with the information we had. we had the best intentions. but the hard reality is that sometimes that does not matter. and to tell the truth, i still come back to those thoughts 'what if...' and 'was it something i did?', even though i know for a fact that it wasn't that way, i wasn't to blame, i still do it. (for instance, i thought i ate too many pb&j's in the 3rd trimester, maybe she died from anaphelactic shock from pb allergy? and then i thought, and still do, that the fact that i put epo near my cervix that last wk, wk41, that somehow i caused an infection that killed her. this is really hard stuff. i have never discussed it with my therapists, and i keep it deep down, because it is such a shameful thing to even consider that i could have done something to kill my own baby). if there was a way to prevent stillbirth, no babies would die. with my subsequent pregnancy, i had a way more medicalized pregnancy. i was high risk. there were issues. i was on bedrest for 17weeks. we were being monitored 2ce a week... his last biophysical profile, he was fine... scored 8 out of 8. and then, 2 days later, he died. just like that. with all that monitoring, with all the care i gave, carried him like he was made of glass. he was healthy baby, and then he died. sometimes, there is nothing you can do, even when you are doing everything that is out there to do.

MI Dawn,
you wrote about wondering if your son felt pain, or if he suffered. i have thought long and hard about this. what i have come up with is probably not. who knows for sure, but the fact is that our babies were so innocent and pure in their inutero state. they did not know what was going wrong, or right. they were existing in the simplest of states. they knew no fear. fear adds so much to the experience of pain, so i don't think that they could have felt pain the way we feel it, on the outside. many women have asked their dr's about this and the responses are usually that the baby just slips away, no pain, or it is instantaneous... no pain. no fear, no suffering, no pain. when i start to question that, i have to just remind myself how much love i felt for my babies, and that they were completely surrounded by that love. love is more powerful than pain.

mischievium,
you wrote about having 'the game plan'. i totally understand, as i felt the ame exact way... did not know what to do with myself, i was a mother with out her baby. it is a horrendous thing to have to experience. i would suggest to you that you already have a game plan... it is to grieve your son. each day that you get out of bed, breath in and out, and then go back to bed is a triumph. losing a baby is the worst!! i don't know why everyone wants and expects grieving parents to have a plan, to move on, to be distracted, to take a freaking vacation... nothing is going to mask the pain. i think they suggest these things to make THEMSELVES feel better about it. the death of a baby is a loss felt by everyone. it shouldn't happen. parents should outlive their children, and innocent babies should not die. when it happens though, i think it is too much for people to grasp, and they want it to 'go away'. so seeing the grieving parents getting back to their normal lives as quickly as possible makes everything feel 'normal' to them again. i think those people should back off! allow yourself to grieve. give your self the time that you need. life will roll on. there will be a time to get a job, make plans, work, etc etc. but you just lost your baby. it takes time, a long time, to grieve that loss. i eventually went back to work and spent a lot of time crying my eyes out locked in the bathroom at work. it is hard to transistion. there is no need to hurry this along, because it will come with time, and you need to grieve the loss now! it is so recent!

Thank you for all of this, soulshine







. I know the guilt and regret will take some time to work through-- I worry maybe I didn't eat enough protein, what about those times I forgot to take my prenatals, I lost weight in the first trimester-- did any of that lead to his placenta being small







:? It's all a part of feeling like I failed my child on some very basic level. Feeling like my body failed both of us







.


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## MI_Dawn (Jun 30, 2005)

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I worry maybe I didn't eat enough protein, what about those times I forgot to take my prenatals, I lost weight in the first trimester-- did any of that lead to his placenta being small...
I'm second guessing EVERYTHING. Absolutely everything. I had a cold the week he was born (really bad one, couldn't taste anything) and had a glass of milk that was bad. I *thought* it tasted a little off, asked DH after I'd drank half of it, and he nearly threw up when he drank it. "Can't you taste that?" he asked. Uh no... that's why I had you taste it...







I didn't get sick... even a little... but who knows?

I do have a slightly underactive thyroid and was on armour... I forgot to take them twice during that last week, because of the contractions that were exhausting me. Did that do something?

I also had NO idea he was going to be so small. How did my MW miss that!? How did I? And we had another small 5lb baby before him (our daughter, my third) and I wondered... is there something going on, to make these tiny babies? Do I have some sort of blood clotting disorder no one has found yet? (and did we dodge a bullet with my daughter? Could she have died too? *shudder* these are awful thoughts...) I'm going in at 6wks to get tested for the clotting factors (again - I was tested after my daughter, too, and it came up negative and I went on to have a 9 lb baby...) but that thought haunts me.

As for the pain thing... ya know, I just can't accept he didn't feel anything. He could have lived outside of my womb at any point by then, and if he'd lived, we would have poked his heel for the PKU and he would have felt it and cried. Babies feel pain. From early on in utero actually. I guess I'm too much of a pragmatist.


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## Cuddlebaby (Jan 14, 2003)

I just wanted to offer a bunch of hugs to all of you as we go down this emotional and even moreso mental journey. it's tough. all our game plans got thrown out the window. I hate it.


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## mischievium (Feb 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
As for the pain thing... ya know, I just can't accept he didn't feel anything. He could have lived outside of my womb at any point by then, and if he'd lived, we would have poked his heel for the PKU and he would have felt it and cried. Babies feel pain. From early on in utero actually. I guess I'm too much of a pragmatist.









Yeah, that's why I said I "hoped" it was the case







. I, too, am pragmatic and having worked in NICU, I can tell you a 24weeker will pull their hand away when you try and start an IV. They definitely feel pain. I don't know what kind of physical pain they might feel when death occurs in the womb, but I worry about maybe the baby feeling panic if their oxygen supply was being cut off. But I honestly can't let myself think about this for too long, or I will lose my mind.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cuddlebaby* 
I just wanted to offer a bunch of hugs to all of you as we go down this emotional and even moreso mental journey. it's tough. all our game plans got thrown out the window. I hate it.

Thank you. I hate it, too.


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## MI_Dawn (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mischievium* 
Yeah, that's why I said I "hoped" it was the case







. I, too, am pragmatic and having worked in NICU, I can tell you a 24weeker will pull their hand away when you try and start an IV. They definitely feel pain. I don't know what kind of physical pain they might feel when death occurs in the womb, but I worry about maybe the baby feeling panic if their oxygen supply was being cut off. But I honestly can't let myself think about this for too long, or I will lose my mind.

I read somewhere just today that the lack of O2 response is more like fainting...then they just sort of fade away and are gone. I can only hope that was what it was like. And I hate that I'll never really know.

How are you?? (I hate that phrase... we should come up with something more realistic... can't think of what at the moment...







)


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## ChichosMama (Aug 20, 2004)

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Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
...

My MW told me, after she lost her baby to SIDS at 8 wks, that it was having another baby that really helped to heal her completely. (Well, as "completely" as it gets...) It seems to be a natural response... women who lose a baby like this seem to want another baby NOW. I actually angrily thought that, as I was watching three nurses and an u/s tech look at my dead baby on the screen... I knew what they were going to tell me, although they hadn't told me yet, and I had the conscious thought. "Forget this, I'm having another one!" I hadn't even had the time to register that the baby was gone or begin to feel his loss... I just knew I wanted a BABY. My body wanted it. Now, thankyouverymuch. ...

thank you for this...

for everything in this post. I'm glad Im not the only one feeling said things.
In my case I just think there about a million things I should have listened to, but didn't. Or the killer- I should have just stuck it out. I have come to the conclusion that watching my son die is definitely harder than myself dying...


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## mischievium (Feb 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
I read somewhere just today that the lack of O2 response is more like fainting...then they just sort of fade away and are gone. I can only hope that was what it was like. And I hate that I'll never really know.

The maternal fetal medicine (MFM) doc I saw yesterday said pretty much the same thing. Which relieved me a bit-- I was concerned that maybe the Tuesday night before he was born when I felt him move around a lot was perhaps him struggling/ panicking. She said no, that if anything they slow down if their oxygen level is diminished, so I was right to feel reassured by the movement. (So, thanks to her for letting me off that particular hook).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
How are you?? (I hate that phrase... we should come up with something more realistic... can't think of what at the moment...







)

Which level of hell are you in today?







I'm not sure there is a good way to phrase it. As far as how I am-- it's moment to moment. There are moments that I feel almost normal, I try to enjoy them while they last and not feel guilty (as if feeling normal for five minutes means I've forgotten or don't love my son). Then there are days when I cry through most of dinner. Like a few days ago when, right before dinner, I had come across the report from Soren's 20wk ultrasound while sorting through a bunch of papers. I was crying because there was proof, on paper, that at some point he was growing well and was healthy and I couldn't help but feel that my body killed him, or at the very least failed him. I try to enjoy the few minutes I feel okay because the awfulness is always waiting, even in seemingly innocuous piles of paper.

I do keep a blog (link in my signature), but to read the protected posts (you know, the interesting ones), you have to get a xanga account and then let me know your username so I can add you to my list of people allowed to read the protected posts. If you wanted to read it, I'd add you to my list, but I understand that that may be a hoop too many to jump through.


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## MI_Dawn (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mischievium* 
The maternal fetal medicine (MFM) doc I saw yesterday said pretty much the same thing. Which relieved me a bit-- I was concerned that maybe the Tuesday night before he was born when I felt him move around a lot was perhaps him struggling/ panicking. She said no, that if anything they slow down if their oxygen level is diminished, so I was right to feel reassured by the movement. (So, thanks to her for letting me off that particular hook).

Which level of hell are you in today?







I'm not sure there is a good way to phrase it. As far as how I am-- it's moment to moment. There are moments that I feel almost normal, I try to enjoy them while they last and not feel guilty (as if feeling normal for five minutes means I've forgotten or don't love my son). Then there are days when I cry through most of dinner. Like a few days ago when, right before dinner, I had come across the report from Soren's 20wk ultrasound while sorting through a bunch of papers. I was crying because there was proof, on paper, that at some point he was growing well and was healthy and I couldn't help but feel that my body killed him, or at the very least failed him. I try to enjoy the few minutes I feel okay because the awfulness is always waiting, even in seemingly innocuous piles of paper.

I do keep a blog (link in my signature), but to read the protected posts (you know, the interesting ones), you have to get a xanga account and then let me know your username so I can add you to my list of people allowed to read the protected posts. If you wanted to read it, I'd add you to my list, but I understand that that may be a hoop too many to jump through.

I felt that same type of movement and thought the same thing. It's a relief, I guess, to know he wasn't dying at that moment. But it's painful to know that I'll never know when he DID go. *sigh* I know, I'm never satisfied...









Love the "levels of hell" idea... I have a quote in my sig line on my email, "If you're going through hell... keep going." Winston Churchill. What else can we do? One step at a time.

And I feel the same...like my body betrayed me. I had a 9 lb baby before this one... how could this have happened? Another little 5 lb-er... I thought my third baby (she was 5 lbs) was a fluke. I was TESTED for all that stuff after her, I followed my fourth with all sorts of u/s to make sure he was growing (boy, was he!). So how in the heck could this happen with this baby? Did we dodge a bullet with my daughter (that thought makes my blood run cold...)? What is WRONG with me? And why can't anyone tell me what's wrong with me, if there is something wrong with me? I'm sooooo frustrating, and the thought that we could have caught it, done something, leaves me paralyzed with a sort of painful regret I can't even describe. The closest I can come is that I used to have dreams of my child running and falling off a cliff, and grabbing them and trying to hold on, and being unable. My fingers slip, and they fall, and there's NOTHING I CAN DO but watch them fall. It's that feeling, for real, all over again. Awful stuff.

So yeah... like you, some more normal moments, some horrendous. The levels of hell are, apparently, a labyrinth, and they overlap. Back and forth, round and round.

BTW, I joined Xanga and friended you - inannajourney. Lemme in!


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## mischievium (Feb 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
BTW, I joined Xanga and friended you - inannajourney. Lemme in!









Done!


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