# Is there a way to *break* the spirit (in spirited children)?



## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

My question sounds cruel but I can't take it anymore. My 3.5 year old drives me mad every day. I also have a MUCH easier 1 year old. People comment on the differences all the time. DD2 is so easy going and much easy to be around. DD1 is demanding, ingores me when I ask her to do something, must pick out her clothes and dress herself, DESTROYS EVERYTHING, is a super picky eater, freaks out over everything, screams, climbs, takes things apart, is very physically active, has tantrums in public (big ones). ALL THE TIME. I just can't take it. This morning (she dumped out pennies on the bathroom floor and while cleaning them up she painted the whole bathroom green) I was blind and felt sick....she is sitting beside me but I told her I don't really feel like talking to her. I resent her temperment. To be honest sometimes I resent her. She stops us from doing things (neccessary things and fun things), she makes people stare at us, and one of the biggest things is: SHE TAKES ALL THE ATTENTION AWAY from her sweetie pie little sister. I really don't want to have a favorite child.....and I really try but it is REALLY hard.

Edited to add:

Before everyone hates me: I am a SAHM, child lead weaning, co sleeping, ap, sling wearing mom. I really try to be the best I can be.

People often comment on how calm I can remain but in reality my inside are on fire.

I have asked DH about getting her tested for something. He said he doesn't want her to have the special needs title. She is bright. At 3.5 she can read and add and subract etc.

I feel bad that I resent her behavours. I feel awful inside but I am all out of ideas.

I feel bad that her sister gets the short of the stick with attention.

I feel bad that I would like a third child, but have to say no because with dd I could never have another child.

I also feel guilty because my friend just lost her baby and I think I should be so thankful and happy to have a happy healthy child....and here I am crying because she is beyond my abilities.

I feel guilty that I don't know what to do. Growing up I was spanked. It worked for me. But I know this isn't the way now. All the gentle discipline stuff I have tried (and tried and tried) does nothing for her.....


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

sounds like your DD has a sensory processing disorder.

i would highly recommend "sensational kids" by lucy jane ******. and ask your doctor to make a recommendation for an OT evaluation or go to your local early intervention agency and ask for a multi-disciplinary team evaluation. she can you can be helped.

i have an older one with sensory issues and a "normal" (whatever that means... not high needs i guess) toddler and it can be really hard. but once you understand what is happening with your DD: she isn't choosing to be like this and she has special needs; she won't drive you mad anymore, you'll better understand how to help her and then you will have more compassion and patience.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

My older one has sensory issues and my younger one doesn't. Your post just broke my heart.

Your older one is a sweetie pie too. Her sensory needs are screaming to be attended too.

Please please get and read the Out of Sync child and the Out of Sync child has fun *now* before your relationship with her gets worse. You *need* the attachment you've built up to now to help you both get through it.

It will likely backfire on you if you try to break your child.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I'm not sure what to say to your title question--but usually when a child's behavior is totally overwhelming the family, there may be one of several issues happening.

1) Underlying food allergies in the child. These can impact behavior to an extra-ordinary degree.

2) Underlying sensory seeking behavior in the child. She is craving sensory experiences. Spilling pennies. Painting tiles. These are all sensory driven behaviors. Sensory seeking behavior can be aggravated by dietary allergies. But it may just be the way she is wired. In this case, a good sensory program every day that fulfills her needs in this area can be very effective.

3) Unrealistic expectations of child behavior--_sometimes_a parent with unrealistic expectations will unintentionally set up a child to frustrate them needlessly. Think of a parent who is driven to distraction because their 18 month old won't stop touching their cd collection. Instead of just putting the cd collection out of reach, they spend hours each day putting the child in time out or scolding them. In reality, an 18 month old is supposed to be curious, and does not possess real impulse control.

4)Lastly, part of the problem can be ineffective discipline. I say only "part" because usually the child in question *is* higher needs from birth. We have to be honest about how *we* are responding to the child who needs more from us, in terms of discipline. We usually don't know what to do, or how to help them, so we wind up taking an approach that isn't really helpful in terms of changing or controlling unwanted behaviors.

5)This is very rare, but an underlying medical disorder can be the cause in sudden changes of behavior.

For #1 and #2 I would read, read, read all you can on dietary allergies and sensory seeking behaviors. There is SO much information out there. If you ask for good book recommendations I am sure parents here can give you advice.

For #3 again, reading is so helpful. The "Your Three Year Old" (or "Your Four Year Old" etc.) books are simple and helpful in getting an idea of what behaviors are normal at each age.

For #4, spend some time here asking for advice for very specific situations.

Hugs to you mama


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## prancie (Apr 18, 2007)

I think you should seek family counseling as well as making sure that she is mentally healthy like the pp suggested. There may be some unhealthy family dynamic going on.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Another small piece of advice: Read the books on raising boys, then pretend she is one. The allowances made for boy behavior in development may be a comfort to you.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

My neighbors are very kind people, no-cio, very affectionate, etc. They have four kids. We've been going through a tough phase with DD, who just turned 3 and the Dad commented that we just have to "break" her. I was a little put off by the language, but we kept talking and his point was just that _You can't give up_!! You're still the adult. Even though it is awful to say no 100 times a day, sometimes you need to keep saying it, when redirection and playful parenting, and empathy, and eliminating foods, and all of the million things we all try to make it work don't work. It is really, really hard. I have lost my temper with DD and been stunned by her behavior more in the last three weeks than in the past three years--and I am just holding onto the hope that _this too shall pass_!!

I didn't see if you mention if DD has always been this way or is it just now. (I notice that you did have Baby #2, so perhaps this behavior has intensified? Perhaps some of it is due to the "competition" of a sibling.)

Anyway, hang in there--people will give you better advice than me. But I do know how you feel. My DD is so bright and beautiful and sparkly and wild, and sometimes when she behaves badly I don't handle it well. I love her spirit. But I don't want her to be mean, ykwim?

You might also want to check out the Kurcinka Spirited Child book--her other books are excellent and I think she addresses sensory issues and how to work with them if you think that is part of it. She also talks about YOU and how to know what you can handle, and what you can't and how to change your patterns. I found that refreshing in a parenting book.


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

MADSKYE--She has ALWAYS been this way......


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Hmmm...mother's helper a few hours a week to help you re-group? You can try to modify her behavior, but the only one you really have control over is yourself.

Does she do any kind of nursery school? Maybe she needs that social outlet?


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## beachcomber (May 11, 2005)

FYI for your husband, seeking out some referrals and testing does not mean she will be labeled. That is much more your choice than you think. What will happen if she does have a name-able disorder is that you will then have a choice as to how to proceed. If you want to take advantage of special programs which can REALLY help you all cope with her and help her deal with the overload, then you may have to accept a label to get access to the programs.

Something my good friend with an autistic child realized when she came to that point is that a label doesn't define her son. But it does help her get the help, OT, speech therapy and other resources he needs RIGHT NOW so he won't have problems when he's older.

I strongly encourage you to speak with her pediatrician about getting testing and/or referals.

Mama, you will get through this. You WILL. Hang on to that.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

The best thing we ever did for our daughter, for our family, for my own mental health, was to take our daughter for evaluations and get some help. During this process of evaluations, we did receive written reports that included names of disorders. But we didn't at any time feel that dd had been labeled. Only a handful of people even know about her official diagnoses, and the therapy was based not on dd's diagnoses but on her individual needs.

Getting help really can be a very positive, very helpful thing to do. For your child, and for you, and for your child's younger sibling.

www.thinkkids.org is a site worth looking at. The book _The Explosive Child_ has been enormously helpful to us. Their basic premise is that kids do well when they can, and if they can't it means that something is getting in their way. Kids don't feel any better about this difficult behavior (like major tantrums) than we do. She's likely as unhappy and frustrated as you are. The good news is that you can help her learn the skills she needs to learn in order to do better.

Is there someone who can care for her regularly so you can have a break? This intense, difficult behavior is why I sent my oldest to preschool. It really helped our relationship and it gave dd a place of her own that was very positive and fun. Do you have someone who will just listen to you supportively? I find that this is so important when times are tough.








I know it's hard.


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## rhubarbarin (May 2, 2008)

momtoS, I don't have kids, but your post brought tears to my eyes

What you are going through with your daughter sounds SO much like my mom and I when I was young. I had very similar issues. And I was never trying to be bad - in fact I remember trying to be good, but no matter how hard I tried I was still in trouble all day, every day. But I was just.. me. And difficult.

You're doing SUCH a good job controlling your anger. My mom didn't. She lost her temper with me every day. Constant screaming, spanking, slapping, etc. She always had a lot of resentment and anger towards me and couldn't help showing it. I never had a good relationship with her, and now I am grown and live on my own, we only talk one or two times a year. I don't really resent her any more, but I have no desire for a closer relationship. We are happier apart.

My advice for you is to get therapy. I know it takes time and money.. but you sound like you are at breaking point. You are doing your very best and still you are so overwhelmed. You need someone to talk to. You need someone who can help you find ways to cope. I don't know if you've tried talk therapy before.. it works wonders for me. Just having a quiet time to focus on problem solving, even once a week, can make a huge difference.

I agree it would be a good idea to get some testing for your dd. You can tell your husband - there's nothing WRONG with her. What it means is that maybe there are more ways of meeting her needs, which will lead to both of you feeling a lot less crazy. Maybe you do most of the childcare and your husband doesn't understand how upset and overwhelmed you are. This is something you need to do for YOU, not just for dd.

Anyway I wanted to say again you are doing a great job. It won't always be this bad, you won't always be this angry with her (who knows - she may become a lot more managable as she gets older - I did), but it's time to find ways to help you. Otherwise that anger is going to come out and hurt you, or her, or your relationship, and I can tell that is the last thing you want.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtoS* 

I have asked DH about getting her tested for something. He said he doesn't want her to have the special needs title. She is bright. At 3.5 she can read and add and subract etc.


okay, so you are going to allow yourself to resent your OWN CHILD because DH is WORRIED about the diagnosis? maybe the person you should be resenting is your DH. would you neglect to get your child evaluated if she was showing the signs of a serious illness? how is this any different? is DH hiding something regarding your DD?

or what if what is going on with her is a brain tumor?

SPD is a neurological defect. it's no different than needing glasses or or getting speech therapy. bright children can have it. my son is very advanced in math. OT can help, the sooner you get it identified the easier it is to treat.

and i hope your DH doesn't need to approve you reading a book. get either books mentioned (i like sensational kids better, but that's because it's more up to date) and read it. even if you still refuse to have anyone test her, at least you'll understand her and you won't take her behavior personally anymore or resent her.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

I noticed you said your DD was already reading and could add and subtract at age 3.5. You might have the additional issue of giftedness. Children with abnormally high intelligence often misbehave when bored. They need more stimulation, and more challenging stimulation than most children. Taking things apart, and being allowed to try to put it back together would take care of the need, for example.
Getting her evaluated could make your life so much easier. Then you would know how to meet her needs and her behavior would improve. I would think your husband wouldn't mind your DD being labeled "gifted" even if she also had sensory issues too. Sometimes the so called labeling is temporary at her age. Basically they can address the issues and after a period of services the child no longer needs them. Also the parent has to agree to everything, and sign everything before they can implement any services. You can refuse services even if you have her evaluated.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I wanted to add that I've found that it's really, really important, when I begin to feel resentful of my child, to make a point of taking some time to connect with her. To make sure I look into her eyes and really listen (and notice how beautiful she is), to touch her affectionately, to hug her, to read her a story, to get down on the floor and play with her (following her lead). It's so important to take the time to create positive interactions with her-however small they might be (and the more of them, the better). It nourishes her, it nourishes me, and it heals our relationship. And in nourishing us and healing our relationship, it contributes to better behavior on her part-because she feels better, she feels connected and loved, she trusts, she can relax a bit. And it helps me behave better too, because I feel better and I feel connected to her, because I feel more relaxed.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
I noticed you said your DD was already reading and could add and subtract at age 3.5. You might have the additional issue of giftedness. Children with abnormally high intelligence often misbehave when bored. They need more stimulation, and more challenging stimulation than most children. Taking things apart, and being allowed to try to put it back together would take care of the need, for example.
Getting her evaluated could make your life so much easier. Then you would know how to meet her needs and her behavior would improve. I would think your husband wouldn't mind your DD being labeled "gifted" even if she also had sensory issues too. Sometimes the so called labeling is temporary at her age. Basically they can address the issues and after a period of services the child no longer needs them. Also the parent has to agree to everything, and sign everything before they can implement any services. You can refuse services even if you have her evaluated.

i agree with everything above.

Check out the gifted kids forum. You are describing behaviour that is really common among gifted children.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

When do you get time for yourself? I find that having time to recharge makes my kids a lot easier to deal with. I think this is particularly important when you have a very high needs child who _will_ suck every ounce of energy that you have and then wonder why you don't have more!

Also, have you been screened for postpartum depression? Some of the phrases that you use are reminiscent of those that moms who are depressed use. ("Burning inside" "resentful" "guilty"). It's just a thought. It's also very common for moms with PPD to have it directed at one member of the family. Sometimes it's dh and sometimes it's the older child. I'm not trying to minimize how difficult your older dd is, but rather to maybe have you think about the dynamics in a slightly different way.

I second (third, fourth?) the having her assessed. Some of the stuff she's doing DOES sound sensory to me. I've got 2 highly sensitive kids -- one with sensory processing disorder and one not. But my one who doesn't still has a ton of sensory behaviors - she loves slathering on creams, going naked, running into things, jumping, etc. etc. I can totally see her painting the bathroom green!

When you say that you "can't go places because of her" - what do you mean?

Quote:

All the gentle discipline stuff I have tried (and tried and tried) does nothing for her.....
This is a clear red flag for me that there's something MORE going on. If the things that don't work for 'typical' kids aren't working, it's time to investigate.

I used to try all the things that people said "should" work with our first, and it got us NO WHERE. And then we had our second and my jaw just about dropped when it worked with her. Ds (my sensory guy) still needs much more explicit instruction on some things. It just doesn't come naturally. And, he does really well with reward kinds of systems sometimes. Even though I've read and liked Alfie Kohn, I do rewards with him sometimes because HE LIKES THEM. AND I have to remember to cut him some slack when he's doing things that drive me nuts because he's not 'choosing' to be that way. He is that way.

I'd conclude by seconding (thirding?) the recommendation for family counseling. It sounds like you're overwhelmed, and that's a good time to see if you can't work with someone about identifying what does/doesn't work (and why) AND getting some new ideas/things to try.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Oh, and I"ll probably get banned from MDC for suggesting this







, but would your daughter benefit from a preschool for a couple hours a week?


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

Check out Mary Sheedy Kucinich's "Raising your Spirited Child" and Linda Budd's "Living with your Active Alert Child."

Once you understand better what life is like for her and why she does what she does, it may not make you so angry.

Good luck. She sounds very bright, but like she easily gives in to every impulse.


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## amis2girls (Mar 2, 2005)

: You sound exhausted.


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

is it possible you have postpartum depression? Raising your spirited child has been helpful for me. It has helped me find my son's rhythm and what HE needed to have a balance in his life...How "busy" do you keep her?


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Your DD sounds alot like mine - she is just MORE of everything. She is special needs (she has auditory processing disorder, motor planning issues and sensory issues - and may be gifted on top of all that!) but it's the sensory stuff that really pushes my buttons (I think I'm a sensory avoider or something - the opposite of whatever she is!)....

Anyway, understanding that the sensory stuff is there is important....but also, I think we would have a much worse relationship if she didn't have preschool. I need the break from her ....I don't know if you're a homeschooler, but you might want to think about what suits your child better - and it might not be homeschooling.

My DD LOVES the routine of her preschool (it's a special day class for kids with special needs). And she goes 5 days a week (3 hrs). I was not sure about it at first - that's alot of away time for an AP raised child....but our relationship has actually gotten so much better with time away from one another!

They've just really been able to help her self-regulate much better than I could. She has OT time there, and the teachers are all very good at helping to focus these kids. And I find I cope much better with all of her antics when I've had a mental break from them - it's the being "on" at all times with her that really wears me down. So I'm a better momma after a break.

She also got much, much better at impulse control once we hit her 4th birthday. I now ENJOY doing things with her - where before I was just the disaster sweep-up team usually. So I do think things will get better for you eventually.

hth
peace,
robyn


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

Thanks for all the responses. I think I am going to print out this thread to read when I have time! There seems to be a lot of great suggestions.


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)




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## hedgewitch (Jan 24, 2008)

Have you tried making it your mission in life to tire her out? It is kind of a fun way to approach the issue of spirit. Pre-empting issues is really important too. Setting things up so that she is less likely to fail, or more likely to succeed!

Try having a day where your focus is throwing as many fun things at her as possible, go to a petting zoo, then the park, then have races, then play with flour then go in the bath with bubbles. See it as an experiment, what works, what doesn't. When I started approaching my son in this "What happens if..." way I felt less stressed when things didn't pan out. I just thought "Ok, so that doesn't work so what if..." I became very analytical about what was at the root of things and didn't beat myself up about it (or tried not to) just reminded myself that next time I would approach it differently.

HTH's!


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## PinkPantherDiva (Jul 1, 2007)

I'm reading _Raising Your Spirited Child_ I LOVE it! It's helped me to see dd in a whole new light. I feel like I'm understanding her more. We always new she was spirited from the day she was born. We thought no book was going to tell us how to handle her. I wish I had purchased this book long ago.


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