# They're not just horrible to babies



## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

I'm so sad. I thought that once past the first year or so I'd be fine amongst average society again, because the talk of CIO and denying food to hungry kids would be gone.

Nope, now they're talking about how much better it is to discipline a 13 month old than childproof, and how to force food down their throats. It's a whole mindset that never goes away, isn't it?







:


----------



## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

On the positive side there are people who did things I wouldn't have (not being open to co-sleeping, early weaning) who turn out to be gentle, caring parents.

Then there are the ones you describe. Sigh.


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
and how to force food down their throats

Wha...?? I don't know whether to







or







: I couldn't have forced food down my daughter's throat when she was 13 months old if I tried. By then she was just starting to run, and had ditched the high chair for a children's table and chairs. She eats what she wants and gets out of her seat when she's done. If I wanted to force anything down her throat I would have had to chased her down first. LOL. Maybe I'm reading that too literally, but how does one do that?


----------



## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

yeah, it's funny because when I first came to these forums when DS was just a baby, never having heard of AP, and not wearing him and not even BFing him, I thought I'd totally screwed up... but now I know there is SO much more to parenting and AP than that. It's a whole mindset of being responsive to your child--and it's a life long commitment.


----------



## poetesss (Mar 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Wha...?? I don't know whether to







or







: I couldn't have forced food down my daughter's throat when she was 13 months old if I tried. By then she was just starting to run, and had ditched the high chair for a children's table and chairs. She eats what she wants and gets out of her seat when she's done. If I wanted to force anything down her throat I would have had to chased her down first. LOL. Maybe I'm reading that too literally, but how does one do that?

Have one parent or other adult hold child down, while other parent forces mouth open and then shoves food in. No shit, I've seen it in real life. Just thinking about it makes me want to hurl.


----------



## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poetesss* 
Have one parent or other adult hold child down, while other parent forces mouth open and then shoves food in. No shit, I've seen it in real life. Just thinking about it makes me want to hurl.

But why would anyone want to do that? What do they think they are accomplishing.







:


----------



## ABrez (Apr 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaomiLorelie* 
What do they think they are accomplishing.







:

Eating Disorders


----------



## Evenstar (Sep 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaomiLorelie* 
But why would anyone want to do that? What do they think they are accomplishing.







:

Control


----------



## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ABrez* 
Eating Disorders

Very true, but I doubt that is thir actual intention.


----------



## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evenstar* 
Control










But I doubt they are actively thinking they need control. I am wondering what kind of crazy "reasoning" a parent would have for this. But then I really don't worry about what my 15 month old eats. She refuses all fruits and veggies, but I keep offering. She is getting about 80% of her diet from breastmilk so I know she's doing just fine.


----------



## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaomiLorelie* 
She is getting about 80% of her diet from breastmilk so I know she's doing just fine.

Ding ding ding.

How many of this type of parent is still breastfeeding their 13 month old baby? More likely, the 13 month old is denied breastmilk and formula, and is on 100% table foods, and also expected to eat larger portions.


----------



## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Oh goodness no!...Bring back the babydays anyday! I find it worse now we are into the toddler years!

Very well said above...it is a mindset of life long parenting!!!


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I remember being at somebody's house when the child (5 or 6) was full and wanted to leave the table. Mom insisted on one more bite. Child refused. Mom insisted. Child finally takes one more bite and leaves the table without swallowing.

At another visit, the mother was telling me (out of earshot of her kids) that she's found small amounts of pre-bitten food in the kids' bedrooms. "Why would my child spit out a mouthful of cole slaw on her dresser? Where on earth could they have learned such bad manners?" Since I didn't yet have children, I just kept my mouth shut- but the source of the problem seemed pretty clear to me!


----------



## ABrez (Apr 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaomiLorelie* 
But I doubt they are actively thinking they need control. I am wondering what kind of crazy "reasoning" a parent would have for this. But then I really don't worry about what my 15 month old eats. She refuses all fruits and veggies, but I keep offering. She is getting about 80% of her diet from breastmilk so I know she's doing just fine.

My 14 month old won't eat anything _except_ fruits and veggies.







And crackers. Blech. But I'm like you, she still breastfeeds ten times a day so I don't worry at all.

I have watched my SIL battle constantly with her son on food. Since he started on solids (at three months!) They have been fighting about it. Now he's seven and only eats: hotdogs, chicken nuggets, black olives from a can, and apple juice. And candy. I'm not exaggerating. I really feel like his lack of variety is a direct result of them 'forcing' him to eat at a young age. They didn't actually force open his mouth but they punished him and spanked! over not eating.

I never made eating an issue with my 12 year old and he eats everything now. Even sushi and escargo!


----------



## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poetesss* 
Have one parent or other adult hold child down, while other parent forces mouth open and then shoves food in. No shit, I've seen it in real life. Just thinking about it makes me want to hurl.

I'm 45 years old, have traveled and lived in seven different countries, interacted with people from all walks of life and have never once seen that.

I hardly think we can classify that as "average" parenting.


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poetesss* 
Have one parent or other adult hold child down, while other parent forces mouth open and then shoves food in. No shit, I've seen it in real life. Just thinking about it makes me want to hurl.

That's beyond disturbing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaomiLorelie* 
But I doubt they are actively thinking they need control. I am wondering what kind of crazy "reasoning" a parent would have for this.

I have seen parents force things upon their children so their children won't "win". I see it at gymboree a lot; parents FORCING their children to play a certain way or they threaten to leave. I have passive aggressively mentioned that if they are forced to play with someone they don't want to or are forced to apologize when they don't mean it, it's not very genuine. Why force your child to "fake" sensitivity and genuineness? The answer of course - "because I said so". I just can't imagine getting into a battle of wills with a child who has no impulse control or the emotional maturity to make critical decisions. Quite honestly, I'm a little afraid of adults who seem so focused on that kind of control.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
I'm 45 years old, have traveled and lived in seven different countries, interacted with people from all walks of life and have never once seen that.

I hardly think we can classify that as "average" parenting.

No kidding. I've have traveled and lived in 4 different countries and have never seen that. I've seen people squeeze the cheeks of a baby so they can pry a spoon in, but I've never seen two parents tag team a child big enough to get up and walk away, like a 13 month old. Ick.


----------



## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

i think in some cultures certian things are valued for strange, yet logicaly explainable reasons. where i come from all "good" children are supposed to be potty trained by their 2nd birthday. i'm cajun and i think because cajuns were so discriminated against in the past (to the point of killing their language after just 2 generations of qhipping kids for speaking it in school) that there was a push to be "good" to be orderly to do things "right" so as not to be looked down upon.

i think i see that whith many parents. the one thing we don't talk about much is the fear inherent in parenting. some of us are more succeptable than others but i can be a scary damn thing to look at these little people and know that we're responsible for keeping them safe and healthy at least for a while. some of this can be gotten over by understanding that our kids are truly their own people and their desires are sepriate from our own (people debate about weather their desires ought to be wholly honored or weather we ought to enforce or encourage our will when we feel, in our ancient wisdom, that it would be better) but the fear still sticks. control can be a way of easing those fears. there will always be uncaring abusive parents but most of what i see is loving people who are, consciously or not, scared shitless that they'll mess up their most precious family members if they can't get them to eat exactly six bites of carrots each night. i

NAK


----------



## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaomiLorelie* 
But why would anyone want to do that? What do they think they are accomplishing.







:

They truly beleive that if they don't control every facet of their child's behaviour, that the child would starve themselves to death







: It's such a logical continuation of the control-based parenting that CIO, scheduled feeds and not spoiling the baby comes from. It's really sad. And I'll bet that most of us struggle with it to some degree, too. I know I do - it's hard to accept that she's not hungry when she's had three bites of her dinner, and yesterday she had three bowls of pasta.

But, even short of the forcefeeding extreme, it seems like most of them don't trust their child to know their own body (just like when the baby is clean and fed and still cries they must be doing it for no reason). Someone recently spoke of making their child ask the parent if their 'full light' was on before leaving the table, and the parent always made them eat the number of bites of their age before they could stop







: And on the same board, I have seen SO many posts along the line of "the baby cries when I feed his solids. I can't get more than five spoonfulls in by holding down his arms, and then he bites the spoon - help!"

btw, it was the 13 month old whose parents wouldn't childproof but instead would allow the environment to precipitate multiple meltdowns and then ignore them. The held-down forcefed child was 7. But the bullied eating is rampant.


----------



## MaryTheres (Mar 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
I'm 45 years old, have traveled and lived in seven different countries, interacted with people from all walks of life and have never once seen that.

I hardly think we can classify that as "average" parenting.

I have seen this first hand. My parents did this to my twin brother. When we were small, he wouldn't eat meat, only vegetables and potatoes - no meat. So my parents took him to their family doctor concerned, and he told them my borther was simply "Lazy" - "too lazy to chew." He told them to force him to eat the meat because he needed the protein. And this is what they did. It was awful. My brother grew up without any eating disorders but he had much trouble with drugs and alcohol and has been in out of jail all of his life - until about four years (now he seems to have it together, is holding a good job is engaged, and clean of alcohol and drugs).







:


----------



## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JustJamie* 
Ding ding ding.

How many of this type of parent is still breastfeeding their 13 month old baby? More likely, the 13 month old is denied breastmilk and formula, and is on 100% table foods, and also expected to eat larger portions.

I read a REALLY interesting paper compaing controlling attitudes to food and BF/FF. They basically found the BF babies were less controlled in toddlerhood, and thought it was probably because the BF parents have to let go of the control early on. Those who can't, wean. And babies who are FF for other reasons never force their parents to give up the control of knowing how much they've eaten, etc.

ETA link to the study
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ull/114/5/e577

Quote:

Conclusion. Mothers who fed their infants breast milk in early infancy and who breastfed for longer periods reported less restrictive behavior regarding child feeding at 1 year.


----------



## rambunctiouscurls (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
I'm 45 years old, have traveled and lived in seven different countries, interacted with people from all walks of life and have never once seen that.

I hardly think we can classify that as "average" parenting.

ITA. I was forced fed as a child but I still don't agree that it's mainstream or average parenting. EVERYONE knew it was wrong the way my parents "parented".


----------



## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
I read a REALLY interesting paper compaing controlling attitudes to food and BF/FF. They basically found the BF babies were less controlled in toddlerhood, and thought it was probably because the BF parents have to let go of the control early on. Those who can't, wean. And babies who are FF for other reasons never force their parents to give up the control of knowing how much they've eaten, etc.


That may be true in general, but I'm living proof it is possible to "bottle nurse"--to ff lovingly and on demand. I agree it's harder to do so... there's that unspoken pressure of needing to finish the whole bottle.


----------



## LittleYellow (Jul 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
I read a REALLY interesting paper compaing controlling attitudes to food and BF/FF. They basically found the BF babies were less controlled in toddlerhood, and thought it was probably because the BF parents have to let go of the control early on. Those who can't, wean. And babies who are FF for other reasons never force their parents to give up the control of knowing how much they've eaten, etc.

I'm trying to get my head around the last sentence and understand what it is saying. Can someone explain it to me?

Is it saying that those who FF (but want to BF) are not controlling of thier kids and don't care about counting what they eat? Or is it the opposite?


----------



## nolansmummy (Apr 19, 2005)

I too have ff and my dd eats only when she is hungry however much she wants. We constantly have half empty bottles. If she wants 2oz she gets 2oz if she want to eat 4oz every hour all day-she does. '
I agree though that it is not typical. I am also finding as my son gets older it becomes a lot harder to hide how you discipline. Like when we had babies i would just not respond or ignore rude remarks, because no one saw me cosleep, or how much i nursed during the day but now when he acts out in public and i have to "discipline" him, its obvious that i don't yell, curse, spank, belittle, or do anything like that, and thats what people have a problem with.
Plus i can't hardly be friends with parents who do those things to their own children, it just is too hard. My sil spanks her kids when they don't go to bed when she tells them to, its sad. People have such different expectations for their kids than they have for themselves. I don't hardly know anyone who just goes in and lies down on the bed and immediatly falls asleep. The way some people treat their kids would not appreciate being treated that way themselves. Children are human too.


----------



## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LittleYellow* 
I'm trying to get my head around the last sentence and understand what it is saying. Can someone explain it to me?

Is it saying that those who FF (but want to BF) are not controlling of thier kids and don't care about counting what they eat? Or is it the opposite?

The very last sentence is talking about parents who FF from the beginning, not those who BF then wean. It says that the parents who have no experience with BF are always able to control the feedings and therefore are more controling parents.


----------



## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nolansmummy* 
My sil spanks her kids when they don't go to bed when she tells them to, its sad. People have such different expectations for their kids than they have for themselves. I don't hardly know anyone who just goes in and lies down on the bed and immediatly falls asleep. The way some people treat their kids would not appreciate being treated that way themselves. Children are human too.

It's amazing how often people have told me I should spank DS for not falling asleep at a certain time. Like being hit would make him sleepier.







:


----------



## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommy2Amira* 
ITA. I was forced fed as a child but I still don't agree that it's mainstream or average parenting. EVERYONE knew it was wrong the way my parents "parented".

Yeah. Holding a kid down and shoving food down their gullet is NOT "mainstream" or normal behavior.


----------



## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora* 
Yeah. Holding a kid down and shoving food down their gullet is NOT "mainstream" or normal behavior.

But it's the extreme of ideas that are prevalent in mainstream parenting. As several other people have also said, my 15 month old is still probably 50-80% breastfed (depending on the day). He gets given food at meal times which he can eat or not as he pleases. The idea that I should somehow be "forcing" him to eat--whether by bribery or by returning to purees that I can spoon into his mouth over his protests--is fairly commonplace. I have learned NOT to talk with other people about his eating habits, because they all seem to come up with ways to force him to eat.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Yes, and some crazies even suggest we nurse our toddlers less to force them to eat more table food.







: That makes so much sense: give them less of the perfect food, so they'll eat more of the second-rate stuff most of the rest of us get (those of us who can't afford 100% natural and organic, that is).

Oh, and even better, some want us to wean so we can join the "worry-team" and fret over how all they'll eat is breaded chicken bites.







:


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
I'm 45 years old, have traveled and lived in seven different countries, interacted with people from all walks of life and have never once seen that.

I hardly think we can classify that as "average" parenting.

Me too. I have never even heard of that.


----------



## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
But it's the extreme of ideas that are prevalent in mainstream parenting.

Every trend, philosophy and reasonable approach has a lunatic fringe. Human behavoir exists as a bell curve.

You don't think there are some people who take otherwise rational and thoughtful AP approaches to shocking extremes?

Two adults force feeding a child has as much to do with average parenting as Tabitha Walrond's dead baby had to do with BFing. Neither one should be considered an example of the norm.


----------



## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

The control of eating habits (among other things) that is exemplified though fortunately not typified by the force-feeding example _is_ pretty typical of "mainstream" parenting, though. From "just one more spoon" to "you can have more [whatever the baby/child _wants_] after you have more [whatever the parent thinks the baby/child "needs]" to advocating manipulative behaviors of which there have been several, not very extreme, examples on this thread (one more bite, deny them breastmilk, hold their arms down, etc). Not every parent who does something like this is "bad", but it does typify a difference in the approach to parenting, which does indeed extend beyond infancy. Which was the point of this thread, yesno?


----------



## poetesss (Mar 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
I'm 45 years old, have traveled and lived in seven different countries, interacted with people from all walks of life and have never once seen that.

I hardly think we can classify that as "average" parenting.

Oh I totally agree, my example was perhaps the most extreme you can find. But I have heard examples of people hitting their children to eat, which is pretty pathetic and sad as well.


----------



## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

I keep pausing over this thread and wondering who "they" refers to in the title. Is there a "they"?


----------



## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Benji'sMom* 
The very last sentence is talking about parents who FF from the beginning, not those who BF then wean. It says that the parents who have no experience with BF are always able to control the feedings and therefore are more controling parents.

Um, no.

What I was saying was that when you FF or bottlefeed (oops sorry, forgot about EPers!) you just always know how much they've eaten, it is the way things are. You know they're going to be hungry soon because they only had 50mls, or that they've already had half again as much as they normally do. And it's *really* tempting it think they hhaven't had enough when they've only had 50mls, and coax them to drink just a bit more (BTDT).

When BFing from the breast you have no idea, whatsoever, how much they had. And most people find that really challenging. You are literally forced to let go and let your child set the pace - it's good practice for later, and it's practice that bottlefeeders don't necessarily get.

ETA the link
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ull/114/5/e577


----------



## janerose (May 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JustJamie* 
Ding ding ding.

How many of this type of parent is still breastfeeding their 13 month old baby? More likely, the 13 month old is denied breastmilk and formula, and is on 100% table foods, and also expected to eat larger portions.

You know, I get what you're saying, I really do. That said I had to supplement both my girls & both self-weaned well before 13 mo. It NEVER would have occurred to me to force feed my kids. Even with a child who is totally on table foods/reg milk/etc I always just assumed that they will eat until they are full. Let's face it, their stomachs aren't that big! I also made sure they get high quality vitamins to fill in any gaps, and only offered nutritous foods so I *knew* they were getting the max nutrition out of each bite.

Anyway, ITA that it's really sad how kids today are expected to eat. Unfortunatly, many people aren't able to see past the moment & embrace the stuff that's really important in the big picture. One of my favorite quotes is: "Never sacrifice the permanent on the alter of the immediate."


----------



## janerose (May 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Qestia* 
That may be true in general, but I'm living proof it is possible to "bottle nurse"--to ff lovingly and on demand. I agree it's harder to do so... there's that unspoken pressure of needing to finish the whole bottle.









: Me too!


----------



## ancoda (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poetesss* 
Have one parent or other adult hold child down, while other parent forces mouth open and then shoves food in. No shit, I've seen it in real life. Just thinking about it makes me want to hurl.

We had a ex-pediatrician that told us to do this with ds1 when he wouldn't eat at about 18 months. This was a major reason (along with some smaller issues) that made him an ex-pediatrician, but I really do fear how many parents he told this to that did it.







:


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Yeah, I don't think it's just "them." I see it in a lot of "us" AP-ers, sadly.

I think the AP-Baby paradigm has really taken hold (in the "trust your baby--s/he knows best" mindset), but the AP-Toddler/Child thing? Not so much. Once that toddler starts tantruming or refusing food, it's right back to the manipulation/coercion mindset for many AP families. People routinely suggest on MDC that kids who refuse meals "won't starve and will learn to eat when they're supposed to" if you don't feed them again until the scheduled time. Other than age, I have no idea how that is any different than what Ezzo advocates. Or walking away from a melting down toddler so they learn they can't manipulate you into giving them what they want. Like at age two crying suddenly goes from communication to manipulative tactics. I don't buy it.

I wish we could ALL just trust that our babies/toddlers/children/teenagers/adult children are doing the best that they can with what they've got, and that their needs and wants are valid and worthy of respect.

Aaaaannnnnddddd.....off soapbox.


----------



## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

I think most force feeding is rooted in fear. My husband has this mindset. He quite literally goes nuts if he thinks that DS "hasn't eaten enough." He defines "eating" by having an adult present and overseeing the consumption of the food (and DH will put food into DS's mouth).

It bothers me. I don't like it and try not to do it myself. But occasionally I have spooned a few bites of food into DS's mouth to keep the peace. And there's no talking to DH about it - it's clearly a core concept with him and he will not listen to reason on the issue.


----------



## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

Dh talks about this - there is a visceral satisfaction for him in seeing his family members eat. Kind of a "species survival" kind of thing. He knows it's irrational, but it gives him satisfaction to see his kids eat. I've heard this at work as well - guys complain their toddlers suddenly aren't eating the way they used to (totally predictable) - to them it's really scary.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Yeah, I don't think it's just "them." I see it in a lot of "us" AP-ers, sadly.

I think the AP-Baby paradigm has really taken hold (in the "trust your baby--s/he knows best" mindset), but the AP-Toddler/Child thing? Not so much.

So true! And as kids get older, APers can be just as controlling (or even more so) than parents using a more mainstream approach. I heard of one mom worrying about her acceptance in the "alternative" community, because of her child's choice of lunchbox --

She wasn't giving in to the alternative community and making her child change her lunchbox, though: she'd just somehow been led to believe she wasn't "alternative" enough to be a part of a particular group.

And I've heard "crunchy" parents sharing their "disappointment" when a new friend "seemed" crunchy but really it was "all just on the surface," and they found out the friend bought agriculturally raised meat, or something like that. I'm determined that my desire to fit in with other AP parents is NEVER going to get in the way of my children's freedom to follow their delight in life.

Quote:

I wish we could ALL just trust that our babies/toddlers/children/teenagers/adult children are doing the best that they can with what they've got, and that their needs and wants are valid and worthy of respect.
Exactly! And respect means I'm not going to to label my children's choice of toys or entertainment as "junk."


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagomom* 
Dh talks about this - there is a visceral satisfaction for him in seeing his family members eat. Kind of a "species survival" kind of thing. He knows it's irrational, but it gives him satisfaction to see his kids eat. I've heard this at work as well - guys complain their toddlers suddenly aren't eating the way they used to (totally predictable) - to them it's really scary.

Well, at least your dh knows it's irrational -- so hopefully that means he'd never try to force-feed any of your children. I don't see anything wrong with getting satisfaction out of seeing people eat, as long as it's just something I'm feeling inside, and not something that's driving me to pressure and coerce others.

After all, when _they're_ the ones eating, they're the ones whose pleasure and satisfaction matters the most.


----------



## mommy2two babes (Feb 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
Um, no.

What I was saying was that when you FF or bottlefeed (oops sorry, forgot about EPers!) you just always know how much they've eaten, it is the way things are. You know they're going to be hungry soon because they only had 50mls, or that they've already had half again as much as they normally do. And it's *really* tempting it think they hhaven't had enough when they've only had 50mls, and coax them to drink just a bit more (BTDT).

When BFing from the breast you have no idea, whatsoever, how much they had. And most people find that really challenging. You are literally forced to let go and let your child set the pace - it's good practice for later, and it's practice that bottlefeeders don't necessarily get.

ETA the link
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ull/114/5/e577

I just had a thought though. I can remember that my grandma told me the I should be making my DD go 4 hrs in between feedings because if she knew she would get it whenever she wanted she wouldn't fill up when she nursed







:


----------



## poetesss (Mar 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77* 
I think most force feeding is rooted in fear. My husband has this mindset. He quite literally goes nuts if he thinks that DS "hasn't eaten enough." He defines "eating" by having an adult present and overseeing the consumption of the food (and DH will put food into DS's mouth).

It bothers me. I don't like it and try not to do it myself. But occasionally I have spooned a few bites of food into DS's mouth to keep the peace. And there's no talking to DH about it - it's clearly a core concept with him and he will not listen to reason on the issue.

I totally agree with this, we have the same situation. I do a lot of spoonfeeding still, but ds also does a lot of self feeding and our spoonfeeding is only as long as he's accepting the food.

That said, I don't necessarily think that totally independent self-feeding is the only "correct" way to feed either. I totally have to distract ds into nursing, have to bring him to the breast to "remind" him to nurse, because the reality is that he's a baby/toddler who is easily distractible and will just play until he's starving, then have a meltdown.

Sometimes I think the AP side of the issue takes it too far to the point that any mama led feeding attempts are basically wrong. I can pick up on his cues pretty well and sometimes he's hungry and fussy but is not feeding himself. I feed him, even if it means giving him toys as distractions and making funny sounds or whatever. But as soon as he gives a definitive "I'm done" we stop. Just as I hesitate to thrust him into independence before he's ready in other areas, I won't insist that he be an independent eater either if it seems he's not ready.

Culture also plays a big role, as I am from a culture where children are fed by mom even into early childhood in many cases. I don't like that idea, but I can see where it's coming from and depending how it's done, I don't think it's always bad.


----------



## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
and how to force food down their throats.

We've been told by quite a few people to do this with DS. Thankfully our pediatrician isn't one of them, though there are peds in our area who push this kind of thing. DS doesn't eat a ton, and he's tiny. He's perfectly normal, just small. (Our ped said, "I like to see skinny kids. I see way too many who have Doritos regularly, and the chubbiness isn't cute.) It actually turns out that he has food allergies, so ha, ha, we were right. I can't imagine forcing him to eat and then finding out we'd been forcing down foods that caused him to be ill. I already felt bad that we let him snack on cheese, and he had a dairy allergy.

I digress.

Many people suggested force-feeding him when he was 15 months or so.


----------



## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

When I was a child, I felt sick when eating fatty things like fried foods. My parents didn't seem to understand this. I remember when I was about 12 and my mother finally made the connection that it was always FRIED things I didn't seem to like. They used to pick on me for cutting the fat off my meat, or not eating the chicken skin.

My sister really loved vegetables. They would make deals with her to eat X amount of meat, and then she could finish off all the veggies in the serving bowl after everyone else had their serving.

My parents were so focused on balanced meals. Meat, veggies, carb. To this day, I make meals with that pattern. Only recently I started making one-pot meals that didn't fit the rules in the veggie department. It used to be that if I made spaghetti with meat sauce, I served a salad on the side. When I had pregnancy fatigue, I stopped always getting around to making the salad. And nobody died! Also, during pregnancy carbs really turned me off. I still made the balanced meal, but just ate the meat and veggies.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I have seen parents force things upon their children so their children won't "win". I see it at gymboree a lot; parents FORCING their children to play a certain way or they threaten to leave. I have passive aggressively mentioned that if they are forced to play with someone they don't want to or are forced to apologize when they don't mean it, it's not very genuine. Why force your child to "fake" sensitivity and genuineness? The answer of course - "because I said so". I just can't imagine getting into a battle of wills with a child who has no impulse control or the emotional maturity to make critical decisions. Quite honestly, I'm a little afraid of adults who seem so focused on that kind of control.

They probably fear what they imagine is the alternative -- Wild children who get into all kinds of serious trouble.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Yes, and some crazies even suggest we nurse our toddlers less to force them to eat more table food. That makes so much sense: give them less of the perfect food, so they'll eat more of the second-rate stuff most of the rest of us get (those of us who can't afford 100% natural and organic, that is).

Oh, and even better, some want us to wean so we can join the "worry-team" and fret over how all they'll eat is breaded chicken bites.







:

Last time I saw a cousin of mine, about 5 years ago at a family reunion, I learned that her toddler would ONLY eat chocolate chip Eggo waffles. Certainly breastmilk has more varied nutrients than that.

-----

I know I am going to have to watch MIL for force-feeding. She keeps worrying that my newborn is not eating enough, or he is thirsty and I have to give him some water in a bottle, or something like that.

One day he wasn't eating much, and I was uncomfortable. I pumped a few ounces into a bottle and left it there. I went into the other room to do some housework while MIL was playing with him, and I came back to see her trying to give him the bottle.

He had never had one before, and it was awkward for him to get his mouth on it right. She was holding him on his back and shaking the bottle into his mouth to make the milk come out of the hole into his throat. He looked uncomfortable, but curious still.

Her idea of giving him his first bottle was different from mine. My idea was for him to spend some time feeling it with his mouth and learning how it behaved. Her idea was to get the milk into the baby. When I came in the room, she made an excuse to me right away "he looked thirsty." <sigh> I let her keep going because my policy is to let each person form their own relationship with him. He will learn what she is all about and be wiser for it. As long as he isn't being harmed, I hold back and watch. He makes his opinions very clear. He is a very loud and strong-willed baby.

MIL also is anxious to give him something for the digestive ailments she imagines he has. His gestures when he is overtired and fighting sleep are similar to an adult doubling over in pain, so I can see why she thinks he has a tummy ache. But I wouldn't allow him to have unnecessary medication. I told her that if she wants she can give him dill-water via a cup. I had some brewed in the fridge I never used. He has cup experience. She didn't take me up on his offer. Maybe she got the message that I was 100% certain his tummy was fine.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagomom* 
Dh talks about this - there is a visceral satisfaction for him in seeing his family members eat. Kind of a "species survival" kind of thing. He knows it's irrational, but it gives him satisfaction to see his kids eat. I've heard this at work as well - guys complain their toddlers suddenly aren't eating the way they used to (totally predictable) - to them it's really scary.

This makes sense to me. When Rosti was eating almost constantly, we all felt like it was great. Then when he started protesting eating during the day, we all felt uncomfortable.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Exactly! And respect means I'm not going to to label my children's choice of toys or entertainment as "junk."

My father always criticized my choices. Every movie I liked was crap, for example.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2two babes* 
I just had a thought though. I can remember that my grandma told me the I should be making my DD go 4 hrs in between feedings because if she knew she would get it whenever she wanted she wouldn't fill up when she nursed







:

I only tried to encourage Rosti to eat more when we were so desperate for sleep and I knew the less he ate the sooner he would be hungry again. There was no way to FORCE him, though. I just tried to avoid distracting him and tried to make eating as pleasant as possible. Once he was willing to give side-lying a try, we could nurse in bed and I started to be able to sleep more than an hour at a time again. Then I didn't care how much he was eating.

Until I started worrying when his eating appeared to drop off suddenly and I was feeling engorged all the time. Besides worrying for his health, I also was worrying for mine.


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
People routinely suggest on MDC that kids who refuse meals "won't starve and will learn to eat when they're supposed to" if you don't feed them again until the scheduled time. Other than age, I have no idea how that is any different than what Ezzo advocates.

I don't know what age you are talking about, but I think not being a short order cook is WORLDS different from doing what Ezzo promotes. I don't even know how you reconcile the two as even remotely similar.

With my 19 month I will try to find something else she likes if she turns down one option, simply because she can't communicate with me why she is refusing one particular meal item. To deny her food for unknown reasons is mean. However, when she's 6 and tells me she would _prefer_ chicken over pork, and just doesn't _feel like_ eating broccoli, well, that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

Are you saying that if I don't prepare pork along side the family's chicken meal in order to please the preferences of one person, that we are parenting Ezzo style?

At what age do you teach your children to appreciate the time it takes to plan, purchase, and prepare a meal by eating it, even if you would _prefer_ something else? If in 4, 5, 6 years I know there is something my daughter doesn't like, I will plan an alternative for her, but come dinner time if she doesn't _want_ what the rest of us are having, well, too damn bad. When planning family meals I take everyone into consideration, not just one person. Everyone will have days where they don't necessary favor the meal, and then other days when they do. By the time my daughter is at an age where this will become an issue (out of the toddler, unable to communicate wants vrs needs, age) there will most likely be another child to consider. I'm not a short order cook, nor do I want to spend the extra money it takes to plan, purchase, and prepare 3 or 4 different meals. And when she's out of toddlerhood I expect she will be eating more that it would make a difference in our food budget if I am having to make special allowances for ONE person.

I don't see the comment you're referencing as being one of scheduled feedings, but one of logistics, budget, and respect for whoever is doing the meal planning and preparation.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

It often works fine for me to be a short-order cook. It's pretty easy to make a grilled cheese or salmon sandwich while I'm fixing the main meal if I have a child who wants something different.

At other times, a child may not be especially hungry at dinner and suddenly want something cooked right before bed. Sometimes I don't mind taking a few minutes to do it, sometimes I'm just too tired or my toddler's needing to nurse, and I say, "I can cook it for you tomorrow -- what's something quick you can put together right now?"

The way I look at it, it's such a short time that our children are dependent on us to be short-order cooks. As they help put together their own meals, they gradually take over various aspects 'til they're able to do it all themselves.


----------



## RachelSerena (Aug 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Are you saying that if I don't prepare pork along side the family's chicken meal in order to please the preferences of one person, that we are parenting Ezzo style?

I didn't take her post to mean this at all. I understood it to mean the child wasn't hungry at that scheduled time (completely understandable to me), and so wouldn't eat, so the parents would refuse the child food until the next scheduled eating time.

I didn't see anything about preparing separate food.


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
At other times, a child may not be especially hungry at dinner and suddenly want something cooked right before bed. Sometimes I don't mind taking a few minutes to do it, sometimes I'm just too tired or my toddler's needing to nurse, and I say, "I can cook it for you tomorrow -- what's something quick you can put together right now?"

That's a little different then what I had envisioned. I would never want my child to go to bed hungry, that's for sure, but when do you go from having children age-appropriately dependent, to expectant?

The reason I bring this up is because I have seen children _demand_ stuff different from what is being served in a rather rude and disrespectful way. It's not just that they don't like what is being served, but that they expect to be catered to on a one-on-one bases different from being respected for having different food preferences then that nights meal. And these are children who are more then capable of making a PB&J sandwhich, or pouring a bowl of cereal on their own.

Like I've said before, respecting a child's preference for or against certain food items is different then catering to the wants of a child who simply doesn't want to eat chicken one night. Sure, I can whip up a grilled cheese sandwhich, but that's not really what I'm talking about.

As well as being understanding to my daughter's preferences, I also want her to be appreciative of all it takes to plan, purchase, and prepare the family's meals. Obviously at 19 months it would be age IN-appropriate to extend that lesson, so what I want to know is at what age do you begin to do that, and how, without being an "Ezzo style parent"?

How do those in big families deal with this issue? Do those who have 6 children really make 3 or 4 different meals for those who don't like what is being served? That's en extra pot to clean, plate to clean, etc, and it all adds up. What message does it send to our children that we will essentially hop up and make something else just because they want something different? Is there never a dialog about this, or do you just assume that they will one day get up and make themselves their own sandwhich and that this will never be an issue.

I've seen numerous threads in this forum about children turning food down, wasting it, playing with it, pouring it on the floor, feeding it to the dogs... and then requesting something else because they're hungry. What do you do in that situation?


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RachelSerena* 
I didn't take her post to mean this at all. I understood it to mean the child wasn't hungry at that scheduled time (completely understandable to me), and so wouldn't eat, so the parents would refuse the child food until the next scheduled eating time.

That happens a lot around here, but I couldn't help but think of the issue of children not liking certain foods, or wasting foods.. and then what? It's sort of along the same parallel. It's easy to set a plate aside for them to eat later when they're hungry, but not so easy to prepare something entirely different, but the end result may be the same - that the child has to wait until the next meal if they don't like what's being served. So then what?

I do understand her point, but I guess my issue was with that on the next level, you know?


----------



## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

North of 60, in my home a cold alternative to dinner is an acceptable substitute.
IE: turkey sandwich or maybe last night's left overs.
sometimes I don't feel like eating a certain thing even though I like it; I'm just not in the mood and I accept that in my kids as well.
I don't like chicken legs but everyone else does. I make them and I eat something else.
Same for anyone else in my family..I make a meat alternative if I make salmon b/c only DD and I like salmon.
So I take many different routes on the dinner front. Sometimes I cook a little extra meal and sometimes I whip a great turkey sandwich on rye with seeds and most of the time everyone eats what's served.


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins* 
North of 60, in my home a cold alternative to dinner is an acceptable substitute.
IE: turkey sandwich or maybe last night's left overs.
sometimes I don't feel like eating a certain thing even though I like it; I'm just not in the mood and I accept that in my kids as well.
I don't like chicken legs but everyone else does. I make them and I eat something else.
Same for anyone else in my family..I make a meat alternative if I make salmon b/c only DD and I like salmon.
So I take many different routes on the dinner front. Sometimes I cook a little extra meal and sometimes I whip a great turkey sandwich on rye with seeds and most of the time everyone eats what's served.

It sounds like you prepare your meals like this though, as opposed to making dinner to find out someone doesn't want what is made and demands something else. Something that is not as easy or cost effective as a turkey sandwhich.

Many nights I'll plan something that I know my DD won't like, so I make something else for her. My husband and I are on two different diets, and several times a week we have different things, but I'm prepared for it. I would think it's incredibly disrespectful to make a meal and sit down to eat to have my husband say "I don't want roast beef tonight, I just don't feel like it, can you make me a pork chop instead". On the age scale this goes from completely rude to age-appropriate.

If a 19 month old refuses to eat something I wouldn't think twice about finding something else for her. But a 6, 7, 8, etc year old? My gut reaction is much different from that of a toddler. When does that transition happen, though? Does it? Am I completely disillusioned?


----------



## staceychev (Mar 5, 2005)

Hi. Sorry that I'm not reading the other posts, but I have to get to my mom's for a yard sale...

Anyway, as hard as it is, I try to speak about my parenting choices as much as I can among "average society"---I think it's really important to normalize our parenting choices in opposition to the choices that others make which we feel are cruel, misguided, etc.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

My point about Ezzo is that sort of "if you give them inch, they'll take a mile" mentality and the strict scheduling of eating--despite what the child's body is saying. I, personally, don't think that's a useful worldview for anyone at any age.

But it is interesting to bring up the wasting and rudeness with regard to food choices. It's kind of the point I was making about distrust and Ezzo, actually. I think it's one more area where we, APers, have such a lot of "deprogamming" to do. There's no logical connection between feeding people food they want, when they need it, and rude/demanding/wasteful behavior. Just as there's no logical connection between picking up a crying baby and creating spoiled/demanding/manipulative behavior. It's just one of those "conventional wisdom" things that doesn't *really* make sense or apply to so many of us who have actually done otherwise. But, so many of us (myself included) are still letting that fear of what MIGHT BE come between us and our kids' REAL needs and wants.

I do need to cook multiple meals (largely from scratch) because my kids are allergic to just about everything. And there have been times where I've served something that people don't really want. I'd much rather they let me know than eat it out of obligation or fear or whatever concern they'd have about MY reaction, you know? My oldest will be 6 in Dec. and he totally gets that I work hard to provide him food/meals and is generally extremely grateful and concientious of it. And he's understanding, too, if I'm not up to making something at any given time (like pancakes late at night or whatever). So, I don't know......rudeness and throwing food and all that just hasn't been part of my experience (NOT to say that there haven't been stages of whining and rude-sounding speech or babyhood food flinging fun, but those developmentally normal phases don't seem to be tied to anything other than normal kid stuff--and they pass). My experience has been that the MORE generous I am with my time, affection, attention, work, benefit-of-the-doubt, etc. that my family also becomes more generous--not that they become more demanding or entitled or rude.

Does that help?


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
There's no logical connection between feeding people food they want, when they need it, and rude/demanding/wasteful behavior. Just as there's no logical connection between picking up a crying baby and creating spoiled/demanding/manipulative behavior. It's just one of those "conventional wisdom" things that doesn't *really* make sense or apply to so many of us who have actually done otherwise.

Exactly!

The only time my children have shown a propensity to play around with and waste their food is in toddlerhood. I've seen this toddler behavior as normal, age-appropriate exploration, and I've minimized the mess and waste by giving them small amounts at a time, quickly removing food when they're no longer hungry, and providing other mediums for messy play.

The best way to help them understand why we don't waste food, is simply to talk about it. And provide play-dough and other stuff that it's fine to make a mess with. They all do get it eventually.

Any time one of my children speaks in a way that feels disrespectful to me -- I talk about how it feels to be spoken to in that way. IME, everyone, at some point, usually needs this kind of guidance. Empathy can only be developed and exercised if parents are willing to dialog with children, and help them think about how their words and actions affect other people.

As far as how big families handle meals -- I don't have experience of that, but I've noticed my friends with large families tend to have their children start making their own sandwiches and snacks (and sometimes snacks for younger siblings) at pretty young ages. And because of tighter food budgets, mothers often specify which foods can be freely snacked on, and which need to be set aside for meals.

As far as a child not liking what's for dinner and demanding a whole different meal -- I guess with my oldest just being 7, I don't even have kids yet who are able to eat an entire, several-course meal at one sitting. So preparing an alternative meal when someone doesn't like what's for dinner is usually as simple as making a sandwich or bowl of cereal.

I anticipate that by the time they develop adult-sized appetites and tastes, they'll be pretty proficient at doing it themselves.

As far as when the transition happens (from being dependent to getting it yourself), I'm sure it varies from child to child and family to family. I think it's literally happening all the time as my children express a desire to help in the kitchen. We crossed a big hurdle when I started trusting my oldest to use a sharp knife to cut up vegetables.


----------



## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins* 
North of 60, in my home a cold alternative to dinner is an acceptable substitute.
IE: turkey sandwich or maybe last night's left overs.
sometimes I don't feel like eating a certain thing even though I like it; I'm just not in the mood and I accept that in my kids as well.
I don't like chicken legs but everyone else does. I make them and I eat something else.
Same for anyone else in my family..I make a meat alternative if I make salmon b/c only DD and I like salmon.
So I take many different routes on the dinner front. Sometimes I cook a little extra meal and sometimes I whip a great turkey sandwich on rye with seeds and most of the time everyone eats what's served.


That's pretty much what we do to. Even if DD decides at the last minute she doesn't want what we're having. I'm not going to let her starve, I'll find something reasonably healthy and ready-to-eat out of the fridge, even if it's just string cheese and a slice of wheat bread. Often it's just a matter of making sure that I don't cook her carrots along with everyone else's, or that I keep spaghetti, sauce, and meat all separated on her plate. It's not that big a deal.

But...he$$ if I'm going to make two separate dinners every night. Or any night. I don't think that makes me "horrible."


----------



## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
Nope, now they're talking about how much better it is to discipline a 13 month old than childproof, and how to force food down their throats. It's a whole mindset that never goes away, isn't it?







:

My mother was in that mind-frame. We stayed with her for a bit and she thought that I should teach my 11 month old not to touch things instead of simply child proofing her house, ugh. I got out of there fast and in a hurry.


----------

