# Some questions from a future father.



## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Hi everyone.

Let me state my position.
My wife is pregnant, and our baby is due in March. We find the sex of the child out with an ultrasound next month (Oct. 10th to be exact.)

I knew we were going to have an argument whether it was a boy or a girl. If it is a girl, we were going to have an argument about piercing our infants ears (my wife wanted to, and I want to wait until she would be old enough to ask me. I've already won that argument.







)

A much bigger argument is brewing should we find out next month that we are having a boy. My wife is dead-set on getting him circumcised. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I vehemently want our son to be left intact.

I need no more convincing. For what it's worth, I'm 29 and of course am circumcised.

Not helping matters is her OBGYN told her that he sees a lot of women that claim to get infections because of their intact boyfriends. Also, she has a couple of cousins that were circumcised around the age of 10 because of "infections." I suspect they were circumcised when something simpler would have taken care of the problem.

Isn't it usually the other way around - with the father wanting a circumcision and a mother not wanting it?

My biggest question is this: what happens if it gets to be time for the circumcision, and I as the father ORDER the physician not to go through with it? I would think that if the parents are split, that the physician would have to leave it intact. It's not like the process can be undone.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Hi there! Just wanted to tell you how refreshing it is to hear from a Dad who wants to protect his son and leave him intact! It really is usually the other way around in my experience.

Quote:

what happens if it gets to be time for the circumcision, and I as the father ORDER the physician not to go through with it? I would think that if the parents are split, that the physician would have to leave it intact. It's not like the process can be undone.
I wonder this myself- it would seem that both parents would need to consent. I'm sure someone on here will know the specifics.

I got the whole "infection" load of BS from family members too- but I must say- having been with intact men, it seemed silly, I've never had an infection from any of them. I did get UTI's all the time with some of my circ'ed boyfriends though







either way, infections are easily cured by antibiotics or antifungals (and then probiotics to keep them from recuring!)...circ'ing due to infections is like telling me that because I used to get frequent UTI's that I should have my labia removed- it's ridiculous.

Quote:

her OBGYN told her that he sees a lot of women that *claim* to get infections because of their intact boyfriends.
key word- they CLAIM it's because of their intact boyfriends- they don't know- they just blame it on that.

Have you shared your feelings with her about being circ'ed yourself- like that you wished it had been your choice and you don't want your son to feel like a choice was made about his body without his consent?

At the very least, if she so adamantly wants it done tell her that you both have to research it together and sit down at the computer and show her some of the links in the sticky's at the top of this forum- make her watch a video of a baby being circed and see if she still wants that for her precious baby son.

Good luck to you!


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

There is no medical reason to circumcise.

Phimosis
Phimosis is wrongly diagnosed most of the time. It CANNOT be diagnosed in an infant or child below the age of 5, because the foreskin is SUPPOSED to be fused to the glans. Separation may not occur until after puberty.

Anyone advocating circumcising a child under the age of 5 because of phimosis has another agenda.

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/...w10610_fm.html

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...full/102/4/e43

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...068&query_hl=1
_"group II comprised 50 children who would be treated with a topical corticosteroid (0.05% bethamethasone cream) twice daily for 1 month"_
_"RESULTS: In group II, 16 of the 50 children had non-retractable prepuce. Forty-two cases of phimosis were corrected after treatment. Eight patients received further monthly treatment and five benefited from the second course of treatment."_
_"CONCLUSION: Topical steroids for the treatment of phimosis is a highly effective treatment alternative to surgery. It avoids or delays circumcision and can be practised during the phallic period to decrease castration anxiety. The treatment is suitable for patients from any religious or cultural background."_

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...339&query_hl=1
_"CONCLUSIONS: Dorsal relieving incision operation was found to be a less invasive, safe and effective procedure for non-retractile foreskin not affected by extensive secondary scarring. This technique has fewer complications in comparison to circumcision and can be performed as an ambulatory procedure."_

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...955&query_hl=1
_"There exists a lack of understanding of normal preputial development which is reflected in the large numbers of inappropriate referrals for circumcision."_

True phimosis, in an older (post pubescent) boy can normally be treated using non-surgical means, and is, where the doctors aren't determined to cut the foreskin off at the first hint of trouble!
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...l/321/7264/792

Oh, and somehow, circumcised boys get it too. (Yes, work that one out, wrong diagnosis much?).

http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/blalock1/

Balanitis xerotica obliterans is now known as lichen sclerosis - and mostly affects _women_. The treatment for men suffering from this condition is the same.
http://www.lichensclerosus.org/guidelines.pdf

_Candida albicans_ infection - is the same infection that causes yeast or thrush in women. It is treated in exactly the same way.

Penile cancer
" In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other factors that are now known to affect penile cancer risk.

For example, some recent studies suggest that circumcised men tend to have certain other lifestyle factors associated with lower penile cancer risk: they are less likely to have many sexual partners, less likely to smoke, and more likely to have better personal hygiene habits. Most public health researchers believe that the penile cancer risk among uncircumcised men without known risk factors living in the United States is extremely low. The current consensus of most experts is that circumcision should not be recommended as a prevention strategy for penile cancer. "

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...evented_35.asp

It is an EXTREMELY rare cancer. 0.2% of cancers.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...5.asp?rnav=cri

A man has more chance of dying of breast cancer. 0.22% of cancers.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...8.asp?rnav=cri

I don't notice anyone promoting preventative chest surgery for men....

_"About 95% of penile cancers develop from flat skin cells called squamous cells. Penile tumors tend to grow slowly. If they are found at an early stage, these tumors can usually be cured._

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...5.asp?rnav=cri

If it is found early it can be removed easily, with little damage to the penis.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...5.asp?rnav=cri

What I don't understand here is why anyone would want to amputate a body part from a boy, when there are adequate non-surgical treatments available.

Plus, I'm sorry, but I don't believe that OBGYN. The intact rate for adult men at the moment is somewhere between 10 and 20% - and it isn't possible for all these women to be getting infections from their partners, there simply aren't that many intact adult men around to be doing it.

Recurrent infections in women are distressingly common, I for instance am someone who gets recurrent yeast (thrush), I had my first attack when I was 14 (nothing whatever to do with sex or any partner), and every time I have antibiotics or get stressed, I know I'm going to have to get the fungicide out again.

The chances are that these women have recurrent yeast as I do, and they're blaming their partners for the outbreaks. It may also be that they may have infected their partners, and they're passing the infection backwards and forwards (which does happen - both to circ'd and intact men), in which case the simple answer is to treat the both of them at the same time and the problem goes away.

Circumcision is not the answer to anything.


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## kisagotami (Sep 18, 2005)

I just have to say that I let my doctor, mother, father and husband talk me into my sons circumcision and I feel so very ashamed of my self now. I knew in my heart what was right but I left my self be persuaded. If you really feel that leaving your son intact is right then stand your ground. Best wishes!


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## susienjay (Oct 20, 2004)

From reading here it does seem like it is usually the dads that push for the circumcision. My husband has always wanted to leave our boys intact even though he is circed so you are not alone. I'd actually left the decision to him when we were pregnant with our first and he decided against it. It's so nice to see other dads wanting to do the same for their children.

I think only the mother's signature is required for a circ but I really can't imagine that any responsible doctor is going to perform one if he/she knows that the father is opposed to the procedure. You've still got several months to prepare. You could get a lot of good information together to show to your wife in that time. The current issue of Mothering has 2 circumcision articles in it that are very good. You could also get on DVD either Whose Body, Whose Rights? (I think this is available from noharmm.org) or Penn and Teller's Bullshit Circumcision episode (if you don't get Showtime it's available on ebay). There are online videos of babies being circed you could show her.

I don't get the attraction to piercing an infant girls ears. Whenever I see a baby with her ears pierced I don't think it's cute, I just think of how much it must have hurt the baby to have that done. I've got 3 girls and none of them have any holes in their ears. I haven't decided how old they will have to be to have it done yet but I'm thinking at least 10-12 right now.


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## paminmi (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kisagotami*
I just have to say that I let my doctor, mother, father and husband talk me into my sons circumcision and I feel so very ashamed of my self now. I knew in my heart what was right but I left my self be persuaded. If you really feel that leaving your son intact is right then stand your ground. Best wishes!

Don't beat yourself up, kisagotami. A post-partum mother, hormones out of whack and most likely in a state of exhaustion not to mention possibly pain is in a vulnerable state. You were taken advantage of by those who should have supported you.







:

Instead of turning the wrong inward, turn it to those who pressured you. Discuss it with them, educate them, yell and scream if need be to get them to understand...


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## paminmi (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
A much bigger argument is brewing should we find out next month that we are having a boy. My wife is dead-set on getting him circumcised. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I vehemently want our son to be left intact.

I need no more convincing. For what it's worth, I'm 29 and of course am circumcised.

Not helping matters is her OBGYN told her that he sees a lot of women that claim to get infections because of their intact boyfriends. Also, she has a couple of cousins that were circumcised around the age of 10 because of "infections." I suspect they were circumcised when something simpler would have taken care of the problem.

Eric-Welcome to the board. It's nice to see a dad for a change.









I have a couple ideas for you:

I don't know if you have tried to educate her on the subject or not but try to turn this to logic. Lovingly tell her how intelligent she is and ask her to think about the fact that 80-85% of men in this world are intact. Many I'm sure without the hygienic bathroom facilities we have in the US. If infections in women were connected with foreskin, does she really think this many men would be intact world wide? Wouldn't women be either refusing to have sex or screaming their heads off in favor for circumcision around the globe?

Also, why would foreskins in this country be more problematic than foreskins in the rest of the world? Could it maybe be something OTHER THAN the foreskin? Like doctors giving improper advise, perhaps. Tell her the circumcision rate in Scandinavia, Russia, China, India, Japan, All of Europe is miniscule.

Tell her it WILL NOT happen unless she can provide you with compelling medical reseach, complete with studies, etc. before you will ever consider this for you son. Period.

(She won't be able to and that will be the end of it!)

Good luck to you!


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

ask her if she would remove the labia of her daughter at birth because it helps prevent yeast infections. She will undoubtly say 'no' then ask her why is okay to do it to a boy.
Perhaps you should also look into the sexual side effects of circumsion. Its not just a flap of skin, it serves not only as a protective covering but also is rich in nerve endings.

I'd write more but my little guy is hungry


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
Hi everyone.

Let me state my position.
My wife is pregnant, and our baby is due in March. We find the sex of the child out with an ultrasound next month (Oct. 10th to be exact.)

I knew we were going to have an argument whether it was a boy or a girl. If it is a girl, we were going to have an argument about piercing our infants ears (my wife wanted to, and I want to wait until she would be old enough to ask me. I've already won that argument.







)

A much bigger argument is brewing should we find out next month that we are having a boy. My wife is dead-set on getting him circumcised. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I vehemently want our son to be left intact.

I need no more convincing. For what it's worth, I'm 29 and of course am circumcised.

Not helping matters is her OBGYN told her that he sees a lot of women that claim to get infections because of their intact boyfriends. Also, she has a couple of cousins that were circumcised around the age of 10 because of "infections." I suspect they were circumcised when something simpler would have taken care of the problem.

Isn't it usually the other way around - with the father wanting a circumcision and a mother not wanting it?

My biggest question is this: what happens if it gets to be time for the circumcision, and I as the father ORDER the physician not to go through with it? I would think that if the parents are split, that the physician would have to leave it intact. It's not like the process can be undone.

Hello and Welcome! Congratulations on the upcoming birth of your baby!








Yes, on this board it's usually the mother who's anti-circ. and the father is pro-circ. But then, we have a lot more mothers than fathers on this board, so that might skew things a bit.
Unfortunately, there have been instances on this board of a baby being circ'ed against the wishes of one of the parents, but it's always been the father going being the mother's back, not vice-versa. That's why it's so important that you and your dw be on the same page on this issue. There are doctors out there who are so unethical that they will circ. at the slightest provocation. If one parent says yes, he/she won't bother to find out if the other parent wants to circ. or not but will just go ahead and do it.







I am worried by your dw's OB/GYN. He sounds circ. happy. You may want to get a different doctor. Better yet, get a midwife, if that's an option for you. They tend to be more anti-circ. than doctors.
Good luck!


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## FuelJetA (Oct 7, 2004)

I just wanted to add a few things. I can't give you an answer, but I can give you a few ideas hopefully.

Ask your OB if circumcision is beneficial and in what way. If they can give you real reasons then you will know they are lying. Read the facts (all over the circ board) and be prepared to call her on her lies.

Your child could actually sue you for a surgical non-consent prior to age 21, so legally, it is a risk...and they could win big bucks (well into the tens of thousands...there are documented cases.)

Circumcision is losing ground quickly and by the time he is a teen, it will be hopefully rare. It is currently in the slight minority. Thus, it is out of style.

Talk to your lawyer about your legal rights as a father, you do have some and an injuction at the prime moment will stop the procedure in its tracks. You don't have to let your wife know, just present it and deal with the fallout later. I would do this in a second and it is not a testament that you don't love your wife, but rather, that you DO love your child. (I do feel it is that important, too.)

It can always be done later, if your son chooses to have it done and makes the decision with informed consent. If he finds that he gives women infections (total bull) then he can choose it later...(fat chance that would happen.) But the option is not your, it is his...it is also not the mother's decision...it belongs to the child solely and that child cannot give consent.

Why, please tell me, does your wife care about how her son's penis looks? She won't be looking at it past about age 4, so honestly, why does she or any doctor care? She needs to see a circumcision. The whole thing. It is BRUTAL! You can find the vid on the net. Sit her down and MAKE her watch it, that normally does it. If she can't sit there and watch it, then she shouldn't even consider it.

Lastly, you have a PM!

*Thanks for caring so much. You will make a good father. Parenting starts by making the decisions that are int he best interest of your child.
*


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Hi and welcome to the forum!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
A much bigger argument is brewing should we find out next month that we are having a boy. My wife is dead-set on getting him circumcised. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I vehemently want our son to be left intact.

I need no more convincing. For what it's worth, I'm 29 and of course am circumcised.

For some reason, in this country, the one that wants to keep their child intact is generally the one that is put on the defensive and it should not be that way. The justification for imposing non-beneficial and cosmetic surgery on a child should be the responsibility of the one who is seeking it, not the one who does not want it done. You are on the defensive and it is your wife that should be defending her choice. You can change the situation by just telling her that if she can present compelling medical justification for it, you will agree. She will not be able to do this. At it's last meeting, the American Academy of Pediatrics Taskforce on Circumcision reviewed 671 research projects and came to the conclusion that the risks outweighed any potential but unproven benefits. She will do no better than the AAP. I can promise you that.

Quote:

Not helping matters is her OBGYN told her that he sees a lot of women that claim to get infections because of their intact boyfriends.
Well, we have to ask here where the infection started. Did it start with the woman who infected the man or the other way around? Women have a different genital chemistry that predisposes them to genital infections, wo where did the infections start in the first place? How is it that the indians in remote rain forests in South America with no medical care survive these infections? In reality, the incidence and seriousness of these infections are way overblown and exaggerated. They simply don't happen or male circumcision would be far more widespread than it is.

Quote:

Also, she has a couple of cousins that were circumcised around the age of 10 because of "infections." I suspect they were circumcised when something simpler would have taken care of the problem.
Reason and logic can drive people crazy when they come up with this garbage. The exact same bacteria and fungi that would affect men will also affect women and would be more difficult to cure in women because of the different vaginal chemistry. Yet, amazingly, these women respond quite well to medication. Why wouldn't these same medications work equally well for men? The truth is that they will. However, surgery pays far better than writing a prescription. Amputation of female parts would not be acceptable treatment for girls in lieu of a medicinal cream but it seems that the amputation of male parts is the only effective treatment for the same bio-organisms. That simply makes no sense at all. Males get genital infections at a far lower rate than females and the infectious organisms are exactly the same, usually either staph or a fungal and the medications will work equally well for either sex.

Quote:

Isn't it usually the other way around - with the father wanting a circumcision and a mother not wanting it?
It would seem that way but usually fathers don't come to this board so we don't see their resistance to the extent that we do from mothers. I suspect it is pretty much equal.

Quote:

My biggest question is this: what happens if it gets to be time for the circumcision, and I as the father ORDER the physician not to go through with it? I would think that if the parents are split, that the physician would have to leave it intact. It's not like the process can be undone.
This should be a concern! Most doctors will not perform a circumcision when there is a conflict with the parents but there are some who will regardless of how much one parent doesn't want it. You also have to realize that your wife's OB/GYN may not be the one to do it. Often, interns do the circumcisions especially at large hospitals and the nurses change shifts so that you may tell 3 on one shift and another shift comes on board. This new shift could present the consent forms to your wife who signs them and then takes the child to the circumcision room to be circumcised by an intern. You also run the risk that the child could be taken home and then circumcised by a pediatrician two weeks later. I know one case in real life where this happened. In most places, it only takes the consent of one parent.

While it is important that you stay with the baby the entire time he is at the hospital, it is far more important that you get your wife on the same page with you so that there are no mix-ups or deceptions anywhere along the line. There are a variety that wives use to make sure that the father doesn't consent to the circumcision such as stickers for diapers and writing with a red felt tip marker on the baby's chart "*NO CIRCUMCISION*." You may want to try these but ultimately, your wife can still take him to a pediatricians office a few weeks later to have it done while you are at work. This is really something that you need to work out with her and convince her by whatever means that it is not to be done.

Frank


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Check out the links in my signature - the foreskin is a crucial part of the penis and removing it removes 50% of the erogeneous tissue of the penis. Also, go pick up a copy of this month's Mothering magazine, on newsstands now - there are a couple of great articles on circumcision.

Also, ask your wife whether it would be OK to cut off any part of a girl's genitals for any reasons. Has she ever had a yeast infection or a UTI? (Way more common in girls than boys.) Would she be willing to have any part of her genitals surgically removed to prevent a yeast infection or UTI? How about just her labia? No? The labia are far, far less nerve-rich than the foreskin.

Another possible tack, depending on her beliefs - is she pro-choice? If so, is it because she believes "my body, my life, my right to decide?" Same thing here - her baby has a right to determine what happens to his body. NO ONE has the right to perform cosmetic surgery on a baby for no reason.

I wrote a long post in another thread on this issue and I'm lazy so I'm going to cut and paste - definitely check out the links comparing male and female cutting.

Quote:

I just wanted to comment on the female vs. male circ thing....it is actually the same thing, whether you cut a boy or you cut a girl. Now, yes, there are differences in the conditions - many African girls get cut out in the bush with rusty knives as opposed to in the hospital with better (but not sterile) conditions, so there are a lot more complications from infection, etc. Also, some cultures use dung and other gross substances to "promote" healing so that's not going to be very helpful.

Many of us here in the US believe that all female genital cuttings are the most severe kind where they take off the clitoris and all the external genitalia and sew the wound shut, leaving only a small opening. This is the most severe form, Type IV or Pharonic circumcision, as it's called. It's actually the least common type. Much more common (80% or so) is the Type I or Sunna circumcision, that takes off part or all of the external clitoris (the clitoris is much more than just the bud on the outside, it's also internal on either side of the vulva).

Women who are cut report having orgasms and are satisfied with their sex lives - even those who experience the worst form of cutting. (Run a google search on Hanny Lightfoot-Klein). Now, I'm guessing you have all your genitals intact and react with horror to the idea of losing ANY part of them, because all the bits are important. But for women from a cutting culture, they say the same things that circed men say here in the US - "I'm fine, my sex life is great, how could it be better, it's cleaner being cut, " etc. There's this myth that female circ destroys ALL of a woman's ability to experience sexual pleasure, and that's just not true. But you as an intact woman know that they have to be missing out on something if they don't have their full clitoris, for example.

Male circumcision destroys half of the erogeneous tissue of the penis. Does it take away all sexual pleasure? No, obviously not. (Unless you are one of the small percentage of boys whose circumcisions result in death or permanent disfigurement, loss of the head of the penis or the entire penis, for example. Relatively rare but happens. ) But if you remove half the nerve endings of the penis, it's gonna reduce sexual pleasure, just as if you cut away half or all of the clitoris.

So that's why male and female circ are really the same thing - they are about reducing sexual pleasure (why circ was introduced in this country, and why it continues in Africa) and removing tissue in the name of "cleanliness." They don't destroy all sexual pleasure but they destroy a good part of it. Whether you believe in God or in evolution - either God designed the human body and didn't make any mistakes, or nature did - but all the parts are there for a reason and cutting them away makes a big difference.

Here are a couple of links that discuss the similarities between female and male genital cutting: http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html
http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/mgmfgm.html

You should pick up a copy of this month's Mothering magazine. It has a great pair of articles on circumcision. You should also visit http://research.cirp.org, which explains a lot more about the structure and function of the foreskin.

I actually think that the term "foreskin" itself is really problematic - it implies that it's somehow separate and apart from the penis, just "bonus skin" or something. The site I just posted the link to and the Mothering illustrations really get the point across that the foreskin is an integral part of the penis as a whole, not just some extra bit like the appendix.


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## FuelJetA (Oct 7, 2004)

Circumcision does not prevent UTI nor does it prevent yeast infections.

I am sadly cird'd and I have a history of UTIs and I even currently have a yeast infection (I was on antibiotics and it flared up and then I gave it to DW without know it..







)

All that infection stuff is BS! I am living proof!

My brother (intact) has never had a single UTI nor yeast infection. Go figure.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Welcome to the board!

I'd suggest you have her read the sticky thread at the top of the forum from mothers who regret circing their sons.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Quote:

I think only the mother's signature is required for a circ but I really can't imagine that any responsible doctor is going to perform one if he/she knows that the father is opposed to the procedure.
Yeah, you only need the mom to consent. The dad can be standing there screaming NO DON'T DO IT but as long as they have the moms consent, they legally can still do it







.

However, talk to your partner. Tell her how it makes you feel to be circumcised, tell her how it would make you feel to have a circumcised son, and ask her for one good reason to do it. You'll be able to shoot every single one of them down.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Hi! Welcome to boards.

I'm going to ditto everything everyone said and also add you should remind your wife that your son's penis belongs to him and that she has no right (well, legally she does but ethnically and morally she doesn't) to change it in any way. Tell her that when he turns 18 you will give him the choice and even pay for the surgery. Until then, however, he is keeping his entire penis and that's final.









My husband was the one who introduced the idea of keeping our son intact to me. I barely even knew circumcision existed before then. I'm 25 so every naked adult man I've seen has been circumcised. It seemed normal to me until I was pregnant. Now I'm such an intactivist I drive people insane.









By the way, this is just my opinion but I would have left my husband in a heartbeat if he had insisted on having our son circumcised, and he would have done the same to me. No matter how much I love him I could never, ever, let anyone harm my son in such a profound way.

~Nay


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Welcome! First- have your wife show you research that shows why it should be done (then shoot down anything she finds) Second make her watch a video of the process. Third- tell EVERY dr. you have contact with that if your child is circed you will SUE. That should make them think twice at least.

good luck!

-Angela


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## ~Kira~ (Sep 16, 2004)

Direct links your wife should see and hear with the sound up, if she hasn't already:

http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/circvid9.rm

http://www.cirp.org/library/procedur...ibell/circ.mov

http://ftp.intact.ca/images/new025.mpeg


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## polarbear (May 6, 2005)

You are not alone. I am a 31 year old circumcised father of a 6 week old (intact) baby boy. During the pregnancy, my wife was adamant that we would circumcise our son. I was just as adamant that we would not. We argued, we screamed, we cried. In the end, he came home whole. I cannot advise you on how to get her to see the light, but I can give you some topics we covered:

- I have found that most women DO NOT equate male circumcision with the brutal, barbaric practice of female circumcision. Whether it is the complete removal of the clitoris, and destroying the surrounding tissue, or the (direct equivalent) of removing the clitoral hood and inner labia, the women I have talked to consider it all to be under the same umbrella. Use this point with caution.

- She will probably have to overcome all the teenage gossip she heard as a kid, and all the reinforcement of the 'OOOO GROSS' stereotype from shows like Sin And the City or Niptuck. Its hard to argue with (irrational / unfounded) feelings.

- When referencing statistics, learn from all the various websites concerning circumcision, but only use references from reputable sources. Do not point her to websites that are obviously anti-circumcision in nature. The may roll her eyes, and wonder why she should take anything seriously from a bunch of crackpots. It may be seen as about as valuable as giving info about the cousin of a friend of a guy your brother once knew in the army&#8230; This is not constructive unless they are agreeing with a point you already believe (your OBGYN reference). Try to find the original text from the original source for all your references. Without inundating you with info, here are some of the best: (The first one is factual and awesome)
Canadian Pediatric Society: www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm
American Academy of Pediatrics - Care for the Uncircumcised Penis: http://www.medem.com/search/article...h_typ=NAV_SERCH
The Royal Australasian College of Physicians (Former Australian College of Paediatrics): http://www.racp.edu.au/hpu/paed/cir...ion/anatomy.htm

- Realize that she will probably have a lot of pressure from her family / friends / work associates etc&#8230; who may (ignorantly) reinforce and perpetuate the myths. She may not want to go against what she feels if the status-quo Knowledge is what fights ignorance.

- Your wife will absolutely believe she is working to keep her kids from harm, and may resent being questioned. Again as another poster wrote: Those who know better, do better.

- Although I also don't believe in ear piecing of children, you may choose to concede that to keep your son whole. (Lesser of two evils).

- Please keep in mind that NO medical association IN THE WORLD recommends routine circumcision to prevent ANYTHING. Not cancer, not AIDS, not urinary tract infections, not STD's, not premature ejaculation, not phimosis, not anything. Reducing the likelihood is not a cure, and is not particularly important when the incidences are very low (i.e. penile cancer)

- You may want to take it easy until you know the sex of the baby. My wife got to the point where she was wishing that it was a girl just so that we would not argue anymore.

Good luck. There are other men out there who also want to protect their children. You are not alone in your fight.


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## KatScarlett (May 22, 2005)

You've gotten a lot of great information here, and I sure hope that some of it will be helpful. The truth is that YOU do not have any rights when it comes to this decision in the hospital. They *must* have the mother's consent but your opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the hospital







Sorry.

I actually found out a great deal about this when I was PG with our 3rd child. We'd had our first son, our oldest, circ'd at the advice of our pediatrician and OB. We didn't do the research, we didn't look into it, we just said "Okay if you say so" and that was that. Our bad.

When we got PG with #2 we found out we were having a girl and so of course nothing to worry about. We did have the ears piercing discussion too though. I'm Cuban and it is a cultural thing.

Then when I got PG with #3 we were told that we were having a boy. At that point I decided to do research and look into circumcision more. With the research I did I became adamantly anti-circ and told DH that I would not circ our son. DH didn't agree at that time and said "it needed to be done" and even argued that since our oldest DS was circ'd as is he it was "important to do it." I totally disagreed with him but gently and persistently, with love, gave him information slowly and in a non-threatening way. I would print something out and then just casually hand it to him and say "Oh I was reading this today and thought you might find it interesting." Fortuantely my DH is a great guy and wasn't upset or saw this as picking a fight or anything and would read what I gave him. We then came to find out, very very late in the pregnancy, that SURPRISE we weren't having a boy, it was a girl!!! WOW!! Our biggest problem then became finding a name in a very short period of time for this baby GIRL we were having - we figured she wouldn't be really happy with Seth Patrick after all









By the time that baby was born I would say that DH was still not completely convinced but he was coming around. What was interesting was that when we went to the hospital to have our baby the nurses asked me if he was a boy would we be circumcising him. I told them uncatagorically that we were having a GIRL and that I didn't need to worry about that. They persisted (all while I'm in labor mind you!!) that I *had* to answer the question and make a decision about that right then and there. I kept insisting that we were having a GIRL and to just get rid of the consent form. They continued as well and told me they HAD to have an answer. Finally I SHOUTED, at this very rude nurse, that if they need MY signature for a circ they weren't going to get it. She said to me "Does that mean you don't want it done?" I told her that was the case and they would certainly never get my signature on that peice of paper. At that point DH stepped in and asked that if it was going to be a boy could HE sign the consent form and get it? Not that he would hav done that but I think he asked out of curiosity. He wouldn't do something like that w/o my consent and I know that. The nurse told him that he has absolutely ZERO rights where the baby is concerned until AFTER baby is discharged from the hospital, it has to be the mother's signature. DH was kind of annoyed by this but on priciple more than anything else. This nurse, who also read me the riot act of why circ is so great and I should do it and I would be doing an injustice to my son if I didn't (all the time I'm still in labor of course!), then consoled my DH by telling him.... (no joke)... "Well, the minute you walk out of this hospital with that baby you can just go over to the urologist and get it done right away and you won't need HER signature or approval to get it done." I was just aghast and so PO'd I can't even tell you. I mean this woman was standing here telling my DH to take our baby and get a surgical procedure done on him completely against my wishes. I was furious. Once I left the hospital I wrote them a VERY nasty letter of complaint, specifically naming the nurse, and filed a complaint with my insurance co. against the hospital as well.

Anyway, we did have a girl and she, of course, wasn't circ'd







Four years later we went on to have another son and by that point my DH had become as anti-circ as I was. We had the u/s that told us we were having a boy and we never even discussed it because we both knew that we wouldn't do it. After he was born and his Dr. was checking on him she mentioned something about "oh and after his circ..." and I interupted her and said "He won't be having one." This Dr. actually got misty eyed, walked over to me and gave me a big hug and said "You've made a wonderful decision!" It was a great moment for me







My OB actually had a similar reaction when we told her and told us what a "wonderful and INFORMED decision" we were making. The attitude at the very same hospital only 4 years later was so incredibly different.

Oh and we have #5 now, also a boy and also intact









Anyway, sorry to share this long drawn out story but I think the sad fact is that if your wife signs the paper then it will be done, regardless of your opinon on the matter







IMO that's wrong and it stinks but most likely that's the policy of the hospital. My best advice is to gently discuss it with her at length and give her the space and time she needs to come around on her own. I know with my DH the best thing I can do is give him information and then give him space so that he can come to his own conclusions w/o feeling like I'm pushing him.

Good luck to you and I hope that your wife does eventually come around.

~ Patti


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polarbear*
Good luck. There are other men out there who also want to protect their children. You are not alone in your fight.


Thanks man.

Your situation sounds identical to mine. I agree w/ you - I think I need to hold off on arguing over circumcision until we find out if it's a boy or a girl. I even told my wife that a few days ago.
Thanks also to everyone out there for sharing your info. It helps a lot, and I'll post again when I find out if it's a boy or a girl.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
I think I need to hold off on arguing over circumcision until we find out if it's a boy or a girl. I even told my wife that a few days ago.

Though, if it is a girl there is the chance that the u/s was wrong - so you still need to be prepared in case you do have a boy despite what the u/s tech says.

just a thought.


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

I kept trying to convince DH even though we don't know yet.








And I got good results. Sometimes it's easier to talk about when it's still theoretical.


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Well, my wife and I got in an argument about it last night.
My wife works in a medical facility, one of those office places with a bunch of dentists in it, and some girl in one of the other offices gave her some infection pictures that reinforced her devotion to having our (possible, we don't know the sex yet) son circ'ed.

She is very adamant that she wants it done, and freaked out and started crying. The last thing I want is my pregnant wife so upset, so I told her we should wait until we find out in two weeks if it is a boy or not.

She said she was going to order the doctors to do it. I said that I was going to order them not to, and that they would have to err on my side since they can't exactly put the foreskin back on once it's gone. "Im the mother" she said. While I understand I've got the whole childbirth thing easy being the guy, I still feel like my opinion is valid.

This is going to be a pretty sucky situation if we find out we're having a boy. It's depressing because... I mean we're both totally happy about our first child, but this is looming in the back of both of our heads I'm sure.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

play dirty- find the pics of botched circs and infections and amputations. make her listen to the video.

and threaten to sue any dr. who does it.

good luck!

-Angela


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Make a deal with her.

You will agree to circumcise a son if she will agree to circumcise a daughter. Say, half the clitoris and all of the labia. That is bound to cut down on yeast infections and any pimples on the labia that might get infected. (Yes, it does happen!







) Or how about you excise your brand-new baby girl's breast tissue because she has a 1 in 8 lifetime chance of getting breast cancer, which is way more deadly than (alleged) foreskin infections.

Or better yet, you will allow your son to be circed if she will agree to cut off the equivalent amount of adult tissue from her own genitals. (about the size of a 3 x 5 index card).

OK, so obviously she's not going to make this deal, but she needs to understand that cutting off half of a baby's erogeneous tissue because he MIGHT have an infection someday is ridiculous. Has she ever had a UTI? A yeast infection? Bacterial vaginosis? What parts of her own genitals would she be willing to cut off to treat those? Civilized people use antibiotics, not amputation, to cure infections.

Not one single medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision to prevent infections!!

Please, please, please don't give in to her tears. As much as I'm sure she is feeling some strong emotions about this subject, she is being irrational, pure and simple. Probably exacerbated by the pregnancy hormones. She may be truly upset but she will get over it. Your son would never recover the lost sensations and experiences of having an intact foreskin.

Has she read any of the links posted? Watched the video? She is simply not operating from an informed position here.


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## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Does your wife have any female friends or relatives who are anti-circ? I am wondering if she might take the info from them rather than you better? I found out, quite by surprise, when I was pg with dd#2 that my grandmother had not circed (my mom didn't know that her brothers weren't) and that my mom regretted it. Neither of them ever said anything about this until I brought it up with them.

Maybe you could speak with older members of her family and see if she has a grandma or great-aunt, cousin or someone else who did not circumcise and who would be willing to speak with her about it.


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## bu's mama (Mar 25, 2004)

You've received lots of great responses so far but one thing I didn't see mentioned was the fact that she agreed to wait until your daughter (if you have a girl) could decide to get her own ears pierced, yet she is willing to take away part of her son's penis without his consent, a much more important body part imo. This is a procedure that can be done later if your son wants it. I don't know if you discussed this aspect with your wife, but it's one thing that stuck out at me from your original post.

There is a great article at the mothering.com site on circumsion that is definitely worth a read.


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bu's mama*
You've received lots of great responses so far but one thing I didn't see mentioned was the fact that she agreed to wait until your daughter (if you have a girl) could decide to get her own ears pierced, yet she is willing to take away part of her son's penis without his consent, a much more important body part imo. This is a procedure that can be done later if your son wants it. I don't know if you discussed this aspect with your wife, but it's one thing that stuck out at me from your original post.

It is odd, considering both she and I are very much pro-choice.


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
Make a deal with her.

You will agree to circumcise a son if she will agree to circumcise a daughter. Say, half the clitoris and all of the labia. That is bound to cut down on yeast infections and any pimples on the labia that might get infected. (Yes, it does happen!







) Or how about you excise your brand-new baby girl's breast tissue because she has a 1 in 8 lifetime chance of getting breast cancer, which is way more deadly than (alleged) foreskin infections.

Or better yet, you will allow your son to be circed if she will agree to cut off the equivalent amount of adult tissue from her own genitals. (about the size of a 3 x 5 index card).

OK, so obviously she's not going to make this deal, but she needs to understand that cutting off half of a baby's erogeneous tissue because he MIGHT have an infection someday is ridiculous. Has she ever had a UTI? A yeast infection? Bacterial vaginosis? What parts of her own genitals would she be willing to cut off to treat those? Civilized people use antibiotics, not amputation, to cure infections.

These are both points I made, but she didn't want to hear it.

Someone here PM'ed me offering me some videos. I'll take him up on it if we find out it's a boy.


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

If my partner mutilated my child against my wishes, they would _never_ have another one to do it to....


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Pull the penis card

seriously. If it works for the other side, it should work for ours too

"I'm the man, I have the penis, and I know what it's like to have one so no, this kid isn't gonna get cut"

Sometimes we gotta resort to the tricks of the enemy.


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## gottaknit (Apr 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
My wife works in a medical facility, one of those office places with a bunch of dentists in it, and some girl in one of the other offices gave her some infection pictures that reinforced her devotion to having our (possible, we don't know the sex yet) son circ'ed.

Wow. What kind of sick person would do this to a pregnant woman? Why does some random woman want you to mutilate your baby's genitals?!









You can open any medical book (or search the web), and find disgusting pictures of all kinds of infections - eye infections, ingrown toenails, gum infections..... it's completely irrelevant. Cutting off body parts to prevent infection is insane in any instance.

Ditto on the pictures of botched circ, and the video. We watched a video in our childbirth preparation class that had everyone in tears. _All_ of the baby boys ended up staying intact.


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

This must be so hard! I am sorry to hear you're going through this.
I wonder what the heart of the matter is for her? I have no doubt that we can match those infection photos will harrowing botched-circ photos... but then the conversation is reduced to a horror show.








From what I've read here on the subject of caring for the intact penis, it sounds like when infections or other problems happen, it is often as a result of improper care, especially uninformed pediatricians forcefully retracting baby boys during regular check-ups.
If her fear really IS of foreskin infections, would she learn a little about proper care of boys?
I end up wondering if her driving issue is more of an emotional or aesthetic one. Maybe she secretly thinks intact male genitals are funky? It would be tricky perhaps, but could she talk to a female friend with an intact partner? (Does she have some experience in her history with a guy who simply didn't bathe properly?)

Here's a quote on the subject I like a lot:

Circumcision is medically necessary... in order to assure avoidance of conditions of the foreskin. You could say that about any part of the body, though. If you poke out one eye, you reduce your chances of eye cancer by 50%.
Of course, you won't see as much, but you'll have less trouble focusing and get fewer headaches from reading fine print. Depth perception is a myth anyway, though.. right?
Ask any cyclops.


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gottaknit*
Ditto on the pictures of botched circ, and the video. We watched a video in our childbirth preparation class that had everyone in tears. _All_ of the baby boys ended up staying intact.

I agree, if that's what it takes... nobody who insists that circumcision is a good idea should escape having to witness one.








I look forward to the day when there are no more around to witness.









It must be a very emotional belief she has, if the sensible
"He can cut it off later, if he wants to" argument didn't help.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Hi Eric, you have my sympathy. My DH and I agreed right away not to circ our twin sons - I can't imagine how we would have dealt with it if we had disagreed.

Everyone else has terrific suggestions, but I want to throw a new one at you. Say something like this to your wife:

"Honey, I am SO excited about this baby! But I can't help but worry too. There are so many things that can go wrong! I hope and pray every day that we have a healthy, perfect, normal baby, with 10 fingers and 10 toes, and all the rest of the parts in the right place!"

(naturally she'll agree with you).

"It would be awful if Baby was early, or had a heart defect, or some other terrible thing that required him to stay in the hospital - or worse yet, have surgery!"

(again, I'm sure she'll agree).

"If we are lucky enough to have a normal, perfect, healthy baby, it just doesn't make sense to me to sign him up for an operation before he even goes home from the hospital!"

If she's worried that he "might" need an operation later (it sounds like this is her argument?), why does she want to guarantee an operation? You son (if it's a biy) is as likely to need a second operation to repair a botched circ or deal with complications than he is to require a circ if you leave him alone.

And here's another tack: reassure her that you understand how she could be feeling some "fear of the unknown", but the best way to deal with those fears is to learn more about the foreksin, so it isn't as much of an unknown.

Finally, don't count on being able to determine gender from a single US! Sometimes babies are just plain shy, and not in a position to be able to tell. I had a number of US's with my twins, and we could only tell gender about half the time.

Keep us posted!!!!


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramlah*
This must be so hard! I am sorry to hear you're going through this.
I wonder what the heart of the matter is for her? I have no doubt that we can match those infection photos will harrowing botched-circ photos... but then the conversation is reduced to a horror show.








From what I've read here on the subject of caring for the intact penis, it sounds like when infections or other problems happen, it is often as a result of improper care, especially uninformed pediatricians forcefully retracting baby boys during regular check-ups.
If her fear really IS of foreskin infections, would she learn a little about proper care of boys?
I end up wondering if her driving issue is more of an emotional or aesthetic one. Maybe she secretly thinks intact male genitals are funky? It would be tricky perhaps, but could she talk to a female friend with an intact partner? (Does she have some experience in her history with a guy who simply didn't bathe properly?)

It's an interesting point...as far as the heart of the matter. I think a big part of it is that she thinks she's doing the right thing for him.
We live in the midwest, so I don't think she's ever been with an uncirc'ed guy.
Of course, she's hearing stuff that supports her position at every turn.
However, I do have a step-brother with a 5 year old that is uncirc'ed. I plan to talk to him.
Also, she has two cousins that were circumcised around the age of 10 for "infections" though I suspect it was done when something else would have remedied the problem.


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead*

Finally, don't count on being able to determine gender from a single US! Sometimes babies are just plain shy, and not in a position to be able to tell. I had a number of US's with my twins, and we could only tell gender about half the time.

Keep us posted!!!!

Thanks for your help.

Yeah, we'll be at 19 weeks when we have the ultrasound. I know they're wrong sometimes, so I'll be prepared even if they say it's a girl, but for what it's worth - I asked her OBGYN what the accuracy is on the ultrasound w/ determining gender, and he said the nurse that does it has never been wrong. I guess if she can't tell, she won't tell - so to speak. Doesn't it depend on the skill of the ultrasound person? We'll see.

on a side note - does circumcision remind anyone of that story "The Lottery"? You know, doing something just because that's how it's done.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

I didn't have time to read everything, so i am sure i am just going to repeat other moma nd dad's great ideas.

first of all i am impressed to see a dad here who is fighting the wife not to cir. cool.

all I can suggest is that you do what i did with DH and sis did with BIL.

1. tell her to find legit medical reason.

2. tell her to watch at less 3 full view viedos of it being done, with sound. no cut aways like on TLC allowed.

3. tell her SHE will have to be in the room with the baby when it happnes.

and flood her with reading material.

ETA:

Espically about how bogus the start of it was (to stop boys from slef pleasureing was one orginal reason) and about how while it normal here in the US it is not normal else where.

BTW -- FWIW -- we live in the mid-west, and the only un-cir "males" i have ever seen have been under 3 and my newphews who i was careing for. so it is _uhhhh looking for right word uhhhh_ a new thing. but it is best for the baby, and the man. it was a new thing when african american kids went to the same schoola s whites, too, but still the right thing. changes come about.

Aimee


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Eric- I'm in the Midwest too (minnesota). even here, the rates are dropping. What state are you in? We'll help you yet!

I also want to say how refreshing it is to see a man on this side of the fence. (Frank, you hardly count, lol.) We get sooo many women here saying, "I don't want to, but my dh is insisting we circ". You want to know what a lot of advice they get? "Just refuse it. It is your responsibility to keep your child safe. Who cares if your dh agrees." I haven't seen that yet for you, but you can make a difference the same way. This is your responsibilty. Make it known to everyone who you come into contactwith that you do not want it done. Tell your midwife/OB you don't want it done. Tell every nurse who comes in your room.
I would suggest you find out what her real reasons are. It sounds fairly emotionally driven, so it might be hard. They can all be proven wrong. Health reasons? Nope. Matching dad? You don't want him to, so how is that an issue? I would so much rather have the conversation with my son about why we left him intact, than the one about why we knew better and cut him anyway just to match.

Sit down with her and watch the video. Have a bucket nearby for when one of you needs to throw up. There are a few available online, I know there is one here: http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/
just go to the main menu and click on "how" and scroll down. I don't want to look too much further myself, because I'm afraid of accidentily pulling a video up and I can't handle watching it.

I had never thought about "The Lottery" aspect of it. Will she read it, just as something that's unrelated and out and about in your house? Then you can connect them later. Appeal to her pro-choice values, it's not her body she's deciding for, it's his, his choice. Good luck.


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

Try this tack:

You both have the responsibility to protect your son and do what is best for him. Because you disagree then agree to disagree and leave it up to him.

Tell her you will support him being circ'd when he is of legal age to consent to the surgery and seeks it out on his own (and it will be less painful for him then, too).

If you can get her to agree on that then your next step is to educate her on the proper care of an intact penis. No retracting for cleaning, etc. And, that it can be into a boy's teen years before he is fully retractible (sp?).

Get her to come read the stickies on this site. My dh and I learned so much on how to care for our son.

I remember that I agonized over the decision when I was pregnant. My dh was sure he didn't want it done. I knew I didn't want it done and I'm not sure what made the decision so hard except for the pregnancy hormones and the fact that I wanted to make the right choice for him. When I finally realized it wasn't my choice it was crystal clear to leave him alone.

One thing we had to make sure we took care of was educating our families. My mom cares for him during the day so we made sure she knew how to change his diapers. I also explained to her that if he ever is red and swollen to not freak out unless he can't go pee (then not to freak out but to call us).

I'm sorry you and your wife are having such a struggle with this. Also, remind her that you love her and that how you two work this out will tell you a lot about how you will resolve other conflicts that come up as parents.

I hope she can agree to err on the side of caution. As you say, it can't be put back once it's removed.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

here is another though

kinda one i used on DH

your wife has already agreed NOT to perice a daughter's ears untill the gilr child is only enough to take part int he decision to modify her own body? correct?

Why can't the cir be the same. it is a cosmetic body modification; done -- much like periced ears -- for looks and to be like everyone else. so should the same "family rule" apply and th eboy child be old enough to ask and take part in the decsion?

Don't so much as decide not to -- as decide not to decide for the boy -- if he wants to later, he sure can. but --while i have heard of regrowth -- realistically you can't undo it later.

(for my part DH is opposed to body modification at all -- so i just cast cir as above cosmetic body mod done just to fit in -- it helped him see what we were really looking at).


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301*
Eric- I'm in the Midwest too (minnesota). even here, the rates are dropping. What state are you in? We'll help you yet!

Missouri


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## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Since you mention being in Missouri, here's a good article from the University of Missouri - Columbia: http://www.math.missouri.edu/~rich/MGM/primer.html

Nocirc also has a Missouri chapter: http://www.nocircmo.org/index.html Maybe they would be able to provide you with stats for your area if that would help sway your wife. MO did stop paying for circumcisions in 2002 through Medicaid, so I'm sure that would have reduced the numbers somewhat.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Eric, you've clearly let the issue get out of hand and it's time you rectified that. Let me give you an easy way to do it.

Boys and men with foreskins is the default. They're all born with them. To change what is normal to something abnormal, there's gotta be a reason. You've let her put you on the defensive when you should be on the offensive and she should be on the defensive. She should be giving you a reason why it should be done!

Just say to her: "Darling, I realize that this is causing problems between us and I don't want that to happen. I'll agree to the circumcision if you will show me one good medical research study that shows there is a conclusive benefit. If you can't find it, we have to conclude that there are no medical benefits and agree that it won't be done, right?"

Well, she's going to think she's got you with this one but she's in for a surprise! At their last meeting, The American Academy of Pediatrics Taskforce on Circumcision reviewed 671 research projects on circumcision and could not find conclusive or compelling evidence to recommend circumcision. It's in their policy statement and the policy statement of every other medical association in the world.

So, Just pop that one on her and sit back and relax. She will be burning the midnight oil for a while and in the end, it will be for naught and she will realize you were right after all. If she brings up anything you can't answer, just bring it here. We'll have the answers for you!

Frank


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Eric, I'm so sorry this is happening - what a tough situation for you both. Like Frank said - the responsibility is on her shoulders to 'prove' it needs to be done, and she won't be able to find anything credible which supports her opinion.

Good luck, and thanks for the updates so far.


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## Paddington (Aug 25, 2003)

wow, lots and lots of information. there is a book that my dh liked, it used to be called "say no to circumcision" but is now called "doctor's re-examine circumcision" by thomas ritter and george denniston. it got my dh to look at the info where before he agreed with me, but didn't want to find out about it. it is just 40 reasons not to circumcise, and it is numbered. it deals with some history, myths, explains the loss of sensation, and has quotes from men who were circed later in life and therefore can tell the before and after differences... it even has a long list of intact celebrites. it is a really easy reading as well.

i think the most important thing to know (other than that YES, it really does hurt and YES it is HIS body) is that the foreskin has a function. maybe finding out more the purpose of the foreskin (to help protect the penis, the increases sexual feeling) will help.

and if asking to put it off until the child can make the decision doesn't work, you can always say the child may grow up and sue you later...

good luck eric....


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

Another point about anatomy:
I don't think many people know that the foreskin is not separate from the head at birth! If you're picturing a flap of skin simply being snipped off, it doesn't seem nearly as bad as the reality.
That's one more point to use if you're in the "he can do it later" vein of conversation...

Frank, the trouble with having her find data is that there's always someone out there who will still say it's a good idea. Plenty of out-of-date MDs, and newer articles that say that circed men have lower rates of HIV.
How do you deal with that? It's maddening.


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Wow, I just watched a circumcision video on the circumcisionquotes web site.

It nearly brought me to tears...

It's hard for me to watch, and I have as strong a stomach as anyone I know.

That ain't happening to my kid.

If we find out we're having a boy, I'll get my wife to watch it. She has a weak stomach and won't like it at all.


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## Paddington (Aug 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
Wow, I just watched a circumcision video on the circumcisionquotes web site.

It nearly brought me to tears...

It's hard for me to watch, and I have as strong a stomach as anyone I know.

That ain't happening to my kid.

If we find out we're having a boy, I'll get my wife to watch it. She has a weak stomach and won't like it at all.

good for you! exactly right. show her exactly what she will be allowing to happen to your baby if she insist.


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

There is also this site with videos that can be downloaded. (I haven't watched them, I just couldn't, the pics are bad enough for me...).

http://www.intact.ca/video.html


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Well everybody...

Thank God... I have won the argument.

I didn't even bring it up to her today, and she said "I want to talk to you about something."

I guess she had been posting on theknot or the nest or something, and most of those women weren't having their boys circ'ed. And, most told them that since the dad is the one with the penis that their opinion mattered more. Whether that's right or not, I don't care - because if we have a son he will stay intact!

Cheers, and thanks all. I'll post whether it's a boy or girl when we find out.


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

That's great news!

FWIW, I would shower her with your support and understanding right now. As you mentioned in a pp, she was just concerned about the unknown and something that might harm her son- many of us came from that point of view too. She really thought that she was protecting her son (my best friend did the same thing, unfortunatly her dh left the decision up to her- and she polled local urology specialists- who were very unbiased- she was scared to leave her son intact and sadly, didn't).

It takes a little while to be comfortable with something we 'learned' was unhealthy, etc. With many doctors only familiar with circumcising, it is hard to get honest answers.

Also RE Frank's suggestion to be on the offensive, while that approach might work for the husband, I'm not so sure it would work for momma bear protective pregnant women. I came through this from the opposite perspective- fighting my dh to keep my son intact- but I think the feelings are the same. In this case, the momma needs understanding and support and then you can start to present facts. I think informing her about the anatomy (the foreskin fused) and then telling her how watching a video horrified you would have been enough.

And you CAN find things on the web that seem to be 'correct'. In the end I decided heck with the studies- I'd gamble that nature knows best- but I wasn't prepared to wade through all that crap. So personally I wasn't about to use that one with my dh.

Good luck to you and your dear wife. I hope you both will be able to do some research on intactness so you both will feel 100% sure and happy with this decision.

Welcome to parenting-- it is a huge learning process even before the little guy or gal arrives (-;

Keep us posted- and we're here if anything crops up!

Jessica


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Ok, I'm giggling because I actually typed out dear wife instead of dw in prev. post.

Sigh...


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramlah*
Frank, the trouble with having her find data is that there's always someone out there who will still say it's a good idea. Plenty of out-of-date MDs, and newer articles that say that circed men have lower rates of HIV.
How do you deal with that? It's maddening.


First of all, you have to reject information that is not published in peer reviewed medical journals. Anything else is not worth the screen space it takes up on the computer monitor. That would eliminate that latest HIV research study. It has not been published anywhere. Also, other sites can masquerade as legitimate sites but the people putting them up have no medical backgound at all. I know one that is owned by a childrens television star, one that is owned by a retired graphic designer and one that is owned by a construction worker.

The latest AIDS/HIV/circumcision study is deceptive at best and apparently the British medical journal, _The Lancet_ agrees as they have refused to publish it. One of the deceptions is that they state a 70% protective effect when the actual differential was the difference between 1.2% and 3.3%. With that difference, two or three cases could throw the results entirely the other way. By expressing the difference as 70%, it makes it sound like a lot when it really wasn't. On some of these things you have to read very carefully and read between the lines. That's something that I had to learn to do in my career and it just comes naturally now.

Eric:

It doesn't matter how it comes about, a win is a win! It seems she has been influenced by her peers in coming around. Usually with peer influence, the result is the other way around.

Congratulations! I know life is going to be much less stressful now. Good luck on the birth of your new addition!

Frank


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## Velvet005 (Aug 9, 2004)

I am so glad she has decided to leave him (if this is the case) intact!!! That is great news. Congradulations to you and your wife on expecting your first baby!!!!


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Woohoo! That's great news, thanks for letting us know! I'm so happy for you (and your little one - even if you've got a little girl on the way, she may have a baby brother one day )


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Eric, I think you both are going to be terrific parents! You're off to a fantastic start!

Best wishes to you both for a comfortable pregnancy, and uneventful delivery, and a healthy, normal, perfect baby!!!


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Woohoo! Whatever works!

She may very well turn to you one day several months after the baby is born and say "I don't know what I was thinking, he's perfect the way he is, how could I ever have imagined putting him through that??!!"

You do need to make sure that both of you are educated on the care of the intact penis (don't ever ever retract, just wash like a finger). Especially if she is the one who will be taking him to the ped (sorry to be sexist, but IME it's usually the mother who does all that after the first couple of visits) she needs to know how to defend him from ignorant doctors.

Make sure she reads http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...uncircson.html

and the pamphlets at http://www.nocirc.org/publish/

Not only your ped but also all your relatives, day care providers, anyone who might be changing his diaper/giving him a bath need to know that they must not ever ever ever retract his foreskin for any reason. The outdated misinformation about needing to retract at every diaper change/bath is still quite prevalent and it poses a real danger. Getting him past birth with all his parts intact is only the first step in protecting him!


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*

Not only your ped but also all your relatives, day care providers, anyone who might be changing his diaper/giving him a bath need to know that they must not ever ever ever retract his foreskin for any reason. The outdated misinformation about needing to retract at every diaper change/bath is still quite prevalent and it poses a real danger. Getting him past birth with all his parts intact is only the first step in protecting him!


Yeah, I told my wife that last night. Anyone that is taking care of him, we need to make sure they know not to retract it. Just to be safe I'm going to say that to all the nurses and doctors that come into contact w/ him too. If it is a boy, that is. I can't wait to find out! Oct. 10th...
Thanks also to everyone for the kind words. I feel like I need a parenting manual or need to take a parenting class or something. Does the kid come w/ an instruction manual? :LOL


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Whoo-hoo!!!







Congratulations!!!














:









Quirky said it all in the last post.


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
Well everybody...

if we have a son he will stay intact!

Cheers, and thanks all. I'll post whether it's a boy or girl when we find out.
















:

I was going to post to agree with Ramlah, about pointing out that the foreskin is fused to the penis, not a "flap of skin" that is "snipped." When I was on the fence, that did it for me!! The way people refer to the "snip" makes it sound like taking off a hangnail, no big deal. Learning that was NOT the case made me decide against it. (Of course now I realize that even if it was a painless procedure it is not my decision to change someone else's anatomy. But it takes a while for those of us brought up in the US to come around to realizing that.)

Jen


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## Paddington (Aug 25, 2003)

what a great email to get this morning! i'm soooo happy for you! i'm giddy and giggling myself. congrats! unfortunately, instructional manuals don't pop out before the placenta. :LOL but as long as everything you do is to love and protect your baby, boy or girl, you should be fine. definitely let's us know! whoever thought we would encourage the "dad's opionion matters most" theory... hee hee hee.







:







:







:







:


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

Congratulations! What a relief!!!!


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

They don't come with instruction manuals, but you've already deomnstrated that you have pretty good parental instincts. Listen to your baby, and listen to your heart: there's a reason our hearts break when a baby cries - it's because we're supposed to pick them up and comfort them!

The handy thing about babies is that they don't get manuals for us either, so if it takes 10 minutes for you to change a diaper, they don't know the difference. They grow and change slowly enough that you can keep up with on-the-job training.


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## susienjay (Oct 20, 2004)

I'm so glad your wife changed her mind.

I gave birth to my first 2 children in MO. One near the Ozarks and the other in St. Louis. It was 5 years ago but at the time both hospitals obtained circ consent prior to the birth (obviously it wasn't an issue after the birth as they both were girls). Make sure you are really careful about what you sign. The circ consent is often buried in admission paperwork.


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## zak (Mar 6, 2005)

Eric, congrats!! My 6 month old son is beautifully intact!

Be sure to make those stickers/signs/HUGE posters that say NO CIRC for the diapers and such if you're delivering in a hospital!

Yes, babies come with a manual... they are the manual.







You're doing great already following your parenting instincts!

One thing I was going to post before I saw your 'update' was...

Is your wife posting on any 'mainstream' boards? If she is, you may want to either encourage her to come HERE instead, or find out what's being said on those mainstream parenting boards. If you think the circ issues are bad, so are the feeding 'schedules' and sleep 'schedules' and cry-it-out info...

BUT congrats on your victory!!!!!! Your (potential) son(s) will thank you!!!


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## acrathbun (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm so happy for you & your wife.

It's so nice that she came to that decision on her own (albeit w/ a little help )

Quote:

Does the kid come w/ an instruction manual?
You will continue to wish for one, throughout parenthood. Trust me


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

:














:









YAY! Glad to hear the good news!

Like the pp said, the baby is the manual. You will do fine! Congratulations on your "victory"!

Oh, and get your dw over here! Keep her off of other, ahem, *b* boards *bc*.


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## colaga (Nov 7, 2003)

I have been following this thread and I want to say I am absolutely delighted!!


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Nope, no manual.

You should hang around here, even if you have a girl -- we could always use more male perspective on things


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

:





















Good for you I'm so glad you two decided to leave him intact!

and yeah tell her to come over to mothering


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW*

Oh, and get your dw over here! Keep her off of other, ahem, *b* boards *bc*.









She posts at thenest. Is that site no good?


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zak*
Be sure to make those stickers/signs/HUGE posters that say NO CIRC for the diapers and such if you're delivering in a hospital!

What do you mean?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Hospitals have been known to circ without consent.

-Angela


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

Heck, I'd bring a sharpie and write it on the diaper at every single diaper change.


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## zak (Mar 6, 2005)

Especially for where you live... since circ is 'common' in the medical community... be SURE you put NO CIRC signs, posters and stickers on everything... some people do the same for 'no bottles, no pacifiers, no artificial feeding'... things like that... and 'no vaxing', etc.

I had my son in a birth center, so I didn't have to deal w/ that... but if I ever do birth in a hospital, I'm gonna be a sign freak!


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## Paddington (Aug 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
She posts at thenest. Is that site no good?


hi eric,

well, i took a trip to the other message board to see what it was like (i try to avoid that cause it normally just upsets me) and it definitely would not be a site i would recommend to someone with an intact child. a lot of misinformation about circ (even a story about someone's nephew who wasn't circed and had lots of problems--who i would bet money was forcibly retracted) and a lot of mama's who have formed an opinion not on fact or research, but on even more misinformation.

so, if you have a boy, or a girl, and need some health questions answered, i would head over here to mothering rather than that other site....


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## Marlet (Sep 9, 2004)

I haven't read all the other posts but I didn't want to not respond. Maybe you guys could compromise? Let me explain how (I mean no crazy thing like only do a half one or anything







). DSS is intact. DH wanted him to be circed (changed his mind there though!







) and his exwife wanted him intact. They agreed to leave him intact until a certain age and then they would revisit the issue (had they stayed married). DH now doesn't care. DSS has been intact all his life and now it's "normal" for DH. He wouldn't circ him now. Maybe your wife and you could agree on something like that. Say to leave him intact until he's 5 years old and then you can revisit the issue. Maybe by then she'll see that intact isn't bad or dirty or anything like that. Good luck!

ETA: :LOL I just went back and read the thread! Bwahahaha, guess I should have priior to posting! Yay!!! Glad to hear she changed her mind!


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## Terpatude (Nov 19, 2004)

Kudos to you for standing up to protect your unborn child...
You have received lots of good info...Not muych to add ehre other thatn an Atta boy " for taking this stance...BTW. I have never had an "infection" from a uncirced lover... DS is intact and is 13 and HE has never had any infection problems ..We taught him early how to clean himself when he was old enough (it isn't hard to do..soap and H2o :LOL ) Best of luck with your new child.. Glad to see yor wife now agrees with you..blessings on your child to be....Please let us know the details when known....


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

That is such wonderful news!
















By the way, have you checked out the gentle discipline and breastfeeding forums yet? Those are two of my favorites on here.


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## wagodog (Jan 4, 2005)

Could someone please PM me as to what B B C board (or whatever it is) is referring to?

And to the OP: Congratulations!!!! I'm glad that your wife changed her mind and ecstatic for your future child!


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

OK - today was the day. Can everyone guess what we're having?

It's a good thing I've been talking about this with my wife.









That's right, we're having a boy.
I had pretty much won the argument. Now she's starting to sound a little unsure again.
I'm pretty sure I'll win again.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
OK - today was the day. Can everyone guess what we're having?

It's a good thing I've been talking about this with my wife.









That's right, we're having a boy.
I had pretty much won the argument. Now she's starting to sound a little unsure again.
I'm pretty sure I'll win again.

Congratulations on your son!


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Congratulations! You will love having an (intact) son! You must be so excited for the birth!


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## paminmi (Jan 31, 2005)

CONGRATULATIONS on your BOY!









How's about you send your wife on over here for a little info and moral support that intact is the way to go?

We'll be gentle with her, I promise.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

CONGRATULATIONS!!

Is your wife committed to breastfeeding? I can post NOCIRC's position statement on how the pain, shock, and trauma of circumcision interferes with the likelihood of establishing a successful breastfeeding relationship. In addition to the risks of complications and death posed by circumcision, formula feeding increases a baby's risk of dying in its first year by 25% (and this is in the US - according to a study published in the Journal of Pediatrics). Then there's the lifelong increased risks of cancer, obesity, diabetes, and heart disease, not to mention ear infections, asthma, and diarrhea. As well as your wife's increased risks of breast cancer, ovarian cancer, and rheumatoid arthritis if she doesn't breastfeed.

The stakes are really high here. There is nothing more important for your baby's health and normal development than establishing and maintaining breastfeeding. There is no vaccine that can give your baby as much protection from as many diseases for his entire lifetime as breastfeeding.

(Even if a baby is anesthetized for the circ, there is still going to be plenty of post-op pain as the baby pees and poops on an open wound in diapers. I have personally known people who decided to circ and had baby refuse to latch or nurse effectively afterwards. One gave up bf totally. The other succeeded but had to work like hell to get baby back to the breast.)

http://www.nocirc.org/statements/breastfeeding.php


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Congratulations, Eric!!!

Now that Junior has a gender, he will begin to feel even more like a "real" person - especially if you start calling him by name right away. I trust that your DW's mother tiger protective instincts will kick in, and she will be as committed as you are to making sure your precious baby doesn't suffer any needless pain.

When my twin sons were a week old, DH was cutting their fingernails - and he accidently cut a bit of James's thumb. I don't know who cried the most - me, James, or DH. If it had been anyone but DH (and if he hadn't been crying so hard), I would have attacked. I can't begin to imagine how I would have reacted if someone had hurt my babies intentionally (vaccinations were bad enough).


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## zak (Mar 6, 2005)

Congrats on the boy!! I LOVE mine!!


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Oh - we'll be breast feeding. It's cheaper









Well, that is ONE plus. I've read of the other benefits as well.


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## Velvet005 (Aug 9, 2004)

Congatulations!!! Boys are awesome!!!!


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## Paddington (Aug 25, 2003)

CONGRATULATIONS ERIC! boys are awesome!

(please note: i only have one ds, can't speak on girls yet...)


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Well everyone,

Bad news. My wife has changed her opinion...
I'm pretty depressed right now. We just got in another big argument about it. I thought I had won this whole circumcision thing. I'm pretty much all by myself when it comes to leaving our son intact...
I can think of only three people, out of ALL the people I know and we've talked to this about, that are on my side. A lady at work who left her son intact (he's 20 now), and my step-brother (who has a 5 year old intact son.) and one other friend of mine. Everyone else we know, family, friends, and even her OBGYN (to a degree) are in the pro-circ stance. Bummer.

I may lose this argument, if only to keep my pregnant wife from getting so worked up. I don't think that's probably good for our son. We'll see. I may still pull the "ordering the physicians to not do it" card.
The OBGYN did say written consent was needed, so I can't help but wonder if both of us have to sign it. We'll see. I'll keep you all posted. I'm hopeful that the Penn & Teller video will sway her opinion - if I can get her to watch it. During our argument I tried to get her to watch a video of a circ online, and she won't do it.


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

Congratulation on having a boy









Do send your DW here. It is a great place to get educated. She will most likely get a more complete picture about any of the "reasons" she has for wanting your DS to be circ'd


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

I agree. Send your dw here. Let her read what you've been reading. Especially have her read the "we circ'ed our son and regret it" thread and ask her, "Do you want us to be two of these parents?"


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Please, please, do not let her emotions trump your son's right to an intact body. It is not her right to use emotional blackmail to decide to cut part of your son's body off. This is not her decision to make in the first place. This is not an equal argument where both of your opinions are equally valid. You are defending your unborn baby's perfect body, and she wants to do something nobody should have any right to do.

Please, please, don't give up and don't give in. Insist that at a minimum you wait to circ until he's 6 months old and can go under general anesthesia and have it done by a pediatric urologist. There is absolutely no reason to circ at birth and a whole lot of good reasons to wait: establish breastfeeding and bonding, get him true anesthesia, have it done by an expert. (Did you know that if he is cut in the hospital at birth it will probably be a resident who does it? Do you want a doctor in training practice on your baby?)

Odds are by the time the baby is 6 months old your wife will have fallen in love with him and see his body as normal and perfect. If not, well, you have more time to get her to see the truth.

If she will not at least watch a video, she cannot possibly expect you to agree to a circ anyway. If she can't watch it, why should your baby have to endure it?


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

What is her reason for wanting it done? Let us coach you! Let us provide the answers.

Or, another thought . . . Are you reluctant to send her here because of this thread? If so, I think we can convince Karen to pull this thread so she won't see it and won't know you've been conspiring with us.

Frank


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## polarbear (May 6, 2005)

Now that you know the gender I see two things that may have happened to change her mind:

A)She has mentioned the sex of your son to a friend / co-worker / relative and got another one of those "my cousin's friend's dance instructor had to get it done at 22 because of nasty infections&#8230;" , and this has again placed doubt in her mind. (See Canadian Pediatric Society stats at 1%/1%, previously posted)
B)She was still thinking in the abstract 'might not be a boy' sense and now that reality has set in, is once again afraid to go against the grain (society/family).

Although she may be pregnant, and might get worked up, that is not an excuse let her win every argument, especially one this important. If she really really really wanted to get smashed on tequila shots tonight, would you quietly give in so that she didn't get worked up? I doubt it. This is the same. You would actively be giving into something that you know is detrimental to your son. This is not cloth diapers versus disposable, this is a permanent, body altering procedure FOR NO GOOD REASON. Stay strong.


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

I would also like to point out that your wife is pregnant, not ill. Pregnant women in general are a lot stronger and more resilient than people give them credit for IMO (I refused to be made to constantly sit down and "rest" all the time throughout mine, people drove me up the wall), and most pregnant women encourage this way of thinking to feel special and get cossetted for a few months. Unless she has been diagnosed as being at special risk, she isn't likely to come to any real harm through "being upset" over this. Your son is depending on you not to have a painful, unnecessary, sexual reduction operation inflicted on him, stay strong. MAKE her watch the video. (Put it on when she's in the house and turn the sound up full so she can't get away from the soundtrack even if she won't watch the pictures). She should not be forcing your son to go through this when she can't even bring herself to look at it.

Just IMO of course, I'm sure others probably think that's rather harsh.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Oh Eric, I'm sorry. Just when we all thought the arguments were over.

I agree with the others who ask WHY she wants it done. No matter what her reasoning, we can refute it.

She might be exoeriencing some "fear of the unknown" - I know DH and I did before our babies were born. Neither of us had seen an intact penis in real life, and the thought was kind of intimidating. Maybe if you confess to some of this fear, you can work through it together.

Perhaps you should ask her to convince YOU that's it's a good idea - that will help us address specific concerns she has.

Hang in there! We're here for you, and we'll help you get through it.


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
Or, another thought . . . Are you reluctant to send her here because of this thread? If so, I think we can convince Karen to pull this thread so she won't see it and won't know you've been conspiring with us.


The thought had crossed my mind. Don't close it yet. More in a second...


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Well everyone, more new info...

I don't think the argument last night was so much about circumcision, but more about me always having final say. I should confess, I can tend to always want final say on things...
She overheard me having a phone conversation with one of my best friends (who happens to be pretty pro-circ) and I told him "There's no way our son is getting circumcised. I won't let it happen."
Well, that made my wife feel like she had no say on things. That, and she also seems pretty frustrated with my waffling on our son's name. I just don't feel the need to decide right now. One day I like a name, she falls in love with it, and then the next day I don't like it anymore and she's mad.

So, before we went to sleep last night, and after my post, she relented again. Thankfully.

Also - I found out why her cousin who is now about 25 was circumcised at about 10. Apparently, his friends saw him and made fun of him. I refuted that with the obvious retorts.
Another thing. Apparently her father is intact, but he told her he wishes he had had it done. Her father is a whole different issue (he's basically homeless), but I said to her "if he wishes it was done so bad, why didn't he just go in and have it done?"
So, long story short, I think I got her back in the intact field. It's shaky ground though. I'm positive if anything looks even remotely wrong in the future, I'll never hear the end of it. Oh well, it's worth it to keep our son intact to me.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Eric, usually it's the Mom who insists that her son stay intact, and the Dad who fights for circumcision! Congratulations to you for breaking out of that mold.

In some of those cases, the wife gives her husband naming rights in exchange for a promise to keep the baby intact. Would you be willing to go that far?

And I agree with you that "locker room teasing" is a pretty lame excuse to circumcise any kid, much less an infant. What if the locker room bully at your son's school happens to be intact, and beats up the circ'ed kids? How can one possibly predict?

When my sons were in first grade, there were two older kids who picked on them for being identical twins. We could have moved one of them to a different elementary school, or gotten one cosmetic surgery so they didn't look so much alike. Instead we help them find ways to deal with bullies (a skill they can use all through school), and reported the bullies to the school, to ensure better adult supervision of that area after school.

It would have been pretty silly for us to start them out in different schools, or have one of them surgically altered at birth to prevent a little teasing (which turned out to be a pretty good learning experience).


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Trade her for the name.

Seriously. Whatever she might choose, it would be a win-win for all three of you.

I can totally relate, BTW - my dh and I have had very similar arguments where my dh is frustrated not so much with my opinion but my insistence at having the last word/final say/whatever.

Just trade her for the name - tell her you trust her judgment on this one and you know you will like whatever she picks.

ETA: I traded my son's name for the granite we picked for our kitchen remodel. I got the name I wanted, he got the granite. We're both fine with the name and the kitchen!


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## zak (Mar 6, 2005)

oops didn't see your new update!!


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
Also - I found out why her cousin who is now about 25 was circumcised at about 10. Apparently, his friends saw him and made fun of him. I refuted that with the obvious retorts.

Yeah, that sounds more like weak parenting than a real problem. Surgery instead of a round of reason and logic that would have left a far more valuable impression on a child's mind.

Quote:

Another thing. Apparently her father is intact, but he told her he wishes he had had it done. Her father is a whole different issue (he's basically homeless), but I said to her "if he wishes it was done so bad, why didn't he just go in and have it done?"
Good response! If he had wanted a tattoo, would he still be wanting a tattoo or would he have a tattoo? I suspect that in reality, he may wish he was circumcised because of the cultural influences of his time but I also suspect that it really never was that much of an issue and he didn't really want it that badly. The cultural influences have gone topsy turvy in just the last few years with more and more men not wanting the circumcision that was "generously given" to them and you can expect that trend to continue to grow as the men realize what happened to their sexuality. Her father has options. On the other hand, me and millions of other men have had our options taken away permanently.

Frank


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## Paddington (Aug 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
I can totally relate, BTW - my dh and I have had very similar arguments where my dh is frustrated not so much with my opinion but my insistence at having the last word/final say/whatever.

my dh and i have this too.







what can i say? i like to be right....









maybe you should keep this pretty low key for now. keep it on the you win side and maybe not say much about it for a while--but get your arguments and info together just in case, she changes her mind again.

congrats again....


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Yeah, I'd trade the name for leaving him intact.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

I am glad you are getting to the bones of the arguement. Often, the topic at hand is not the end of the issue. We often don't argue about what we are arguing about if you know what I mean. In this case, it sounds like a control issue. I am glad she has been able to talk to you about what the issue was with her reconsidering the circ you had both decided not to do.

And should you need this thread removed from the board please send me a private message.

I would strongly advise your wife to join the board. The breastfeeding help here is wonderful! And the birth stories are very empowering. Best wishes to you on the arrival of your baby!


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
Yeah, I'd trade the name for leaving him intact.

you are going to be a good dad.







and congrats!

susan, mama of two happily intact jewish boys


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## Paddington (Aug 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
susan, mama of two happily intact jewish boys

OT: Susan, is is possible to send me your story? I would love to know how you came to the decision to leave your boys intact.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

acp, there was no decision involved. i was one of those dictionary-reading kids in grade school, read the definition, said, 'holy %$#@!' (or more likely 'oh my gosh!' at that age, lol) & that was that. it was quite obviously a horrific procedure that i knew i would never inflict upon anyone & would fight till the day i died.

(though it was nice to come across 'mothering' twenty years ago & find more official support for my position than experimenting as a teen & finding out, 'oh. ok. that works better.'







)

marrying a jewish man- well, he is an intelligent man. once we discussed having children & what circumcision entailed, he agreed that the cycle would end HERE. we don't hurt babies in our house; god gave them to us to protect.

(a 'what if' to throw out there- what if i had been afraid of offending his cultural sensibilities by bringing it up? i am glad that our babies' health & penile prosperity were more important than say, worrying about freaking out grandma. who, incidentally, is too busy being a loving great-grandma to dwell on the state of their genitals.)

hope that helps







(i wish for the sake of a good story there was more drama than my being a born intactivist- i might be more understanding of my friends here that came by their knowledge the hard way, though i try- but i suppose there is a place for in intactivism for those of us who first heard about it &







. hmmn, then again maybe it was reading 'black beauty' and being appalled at the ear-cropping...







)

susan


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## Paddington (Aug 25, 2003)

as this has been a recent argument i have been having with a friend--who won't consider not doing it--i am happy to know you susan!


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
then again maybe it was reading 'black beauty' and being appalled at the ear-cropping...







)

susan










...saw a puppy at the park the other day with bandages on his ears. DD was appalled when I told her why. What hope is there for dogs if people won't even consider not cutting their own son?

Jen


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## birthdancedoula (Nov 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
Yeah, I'd trade the name for leaving him intact.

I just want to say, way to go for taking a stand to protect your child.

In all honesty, I wish I did not have to say 'way to go' to anyone choosing to spare their child the knife. I wish that one day all circ'd expectant fathers find the courage, as you have, to stop the cycle of performing surgery on the smallest, unconsenting patients just so "he'll look like daddy." I wish that men will one day find their voice and have the balls (pardon my reference) to protect their sons, their bodies, and their sexualtity, and no longer allow needless surgery to be done for no other reason except ignornace.

I sincerely hope you won't stop your intactivism w/ your son. Keep talking about the harm circumcision causes and what men are missing. I think it goes a long way when men hear it from other men.

Best of luck to you and your wife for the birth of your precious baby.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Great thread! Ya know... I just thought of something. Maybe all the circ'd fathers of intact sons should get together and write a book about why they are glad that they have intact sons and how they were convinced to leave their boys intact.

I mean... how many mamas here have circ'd dhs? Most, right? It's a book that could help a lot of Fathers who are on the fence about the issue. Just other dads' reasons for not mutilating their babies. It could be pretty powerful...

Eric, I'm really glad that your wife seems to be coming around again







and definitely way to go for protecting your son! You're already a great dad









love and peace.


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## No2Circ (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya*
Great thread! Ya know... I just thought of something. Maybe all the circ'd fathers of intact sons should get together and write a book about why they are glad that they have intact sons and how they were convinced to leave their boys intact.


I think my dh would be willing to participate in that.


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

Mine too!
We had such a touching series of conversations about circing when we were expecting our first...He hadn't thought much about the subject until then, and his thoughts and feelings about what happened to him and how it may have affected him were very moving.
I'm getting teary-eyed thinking about our baby boy growing up and hearing about circumcision for the first time- and hearing that his own Papa went through it.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
we don't hurt babies in our house; god gave them to us to protect.

I love the way you said that.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

thank you









it just seems so obvious to me. why cut pieces off a perfectly good baby?

susan


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## BethSLP (Mar 27, 2005)

Since she had that experience of a cousin being made fun of, I think she'd also benefit from hearing that very few people do it now.

Its not like when we were young and EVERYONE was circ'ed. There will be intact boys in your child's playgroups, locker rooms, etc.

To me, this is important. Clearly being ridiculed is not a reason to mutilate genitals, but people DO worry about this. And it was a big load off my mind to find out that times are changing! YAY!!

Congratulations on your DS!
XOXO
Beth

P.S. I dont like THE KNOT and the THE NEST because they are so disorganized. Here you can have an actual coherent conversation over a period of days. Those message boards are a MESS.


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya*

Eric, I'm really glad that your wife seems to be coming around again







and definitely way to go for protecting your son! You're already a great dad









love and peace.









That is very nice of you to say. Thank you.

Well,
Here is an update.
My wife and I had dinner last night with my step-brother, who is pretty much the ONLY person we know with a child that is intact. His son is 6.
Pretty much everyone on both sides of our family are saying to get it done. So are friends and acquaintances that have overheard things.
But, you all may remember that my wife kind of waffled.
I can now say that after talking with my step brother last night, that she is firmly on the intact side again.
My step-brother told her that they had had no problems with his intact son. My wife's biggest concerns had been the whole "not looking like dad or his friends" thing, and infection/dirtiness.
But, like I said, my step-brother assured her that those are total non-issues. (My step brother is about 31 or so and is circ'ed).

I've gotta say, that after talking my step-brother and his wife, I'm totally paranoid.
They said that one pediatrician forcibly retracted their son, which caused some bleeding.
I tell you, I don't know what the deal is with the midwest. I think I was meant to live on the coast or something. Jeez.
Anyway, I now know that anyone that handles our son, including the delivery room doctors and nurses, I've got to tell them ahead of time not to retract the foreskin.

An interesting story with my step-brother: he and his wife didn't know the sex of their boy before he was born. He had done the research, and he knew he didn't want it done.
But, he wasn't on the same page with his wife. They hadn't talked about it much. Apparently my step-brother was out of the room, and the nurses came to get his son to circumcise him. Mom said she was going to have to sign something, so she waited until dad got back. So, in a room FULL of family members, they discussed circumcision. Apparently the entire family was preaching to circumcise, especially the maternal grandparents. Thankfully my step-brother is an ex-marine and strong and stood his ground. Also, a friend of theirs that is a professional soccer player from Colombia was there, and he told everyone that he was intact of course and had no problems.

We're not going to talk about it much ahead of time with our families. My wife's sister and my father seem to be the most vocal people saying we need to circ. They'll get over it.


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya*
Great thread! Ya know... I just thought of something. Maybe all the circ'd fathers of intact sons should get together and write a book about why they are glad that they have intact sons and how they were convinced to leave their boys intact.

I mean... how many mamas here have circ'd dhs? Most, right? It's a book that could help a lot of Fathers who are on the fence about the issue. Just other dads' reasons for not mutilating their babies. It could be pretty powerful...

That's a good idea. I may mention it to a friend of mine (we both work at a major metro newspaper) and see if he may want to write the book. I know he's anti-circ.
I've been trying to get him to do a story on circ for a while...


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Great news!


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
That's a good idea. I may mention it to a friend of mine (we both work at a major metro newspaper) and see if he may want to write the book. I know he's anti-circ.
I've been trying to get him to do a story on circ for a while...

If he's up for it, start a new thread on this topic, and we'll start rounding up people to join in. The book will practically write itself!!








There's also an anti-circ section at tribe.net with 65 members...

Glad to hear you're getting more support on the subject.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Eric, I'm so glad you've finally got some family members on your side (and the baby's)!

And you can cut the rest off at the pass by kind of agreeing with them. Thank them for their concern for the well-being of your little one, you will certainly be on the lookout for all the foreskin issues they have brought to your attention. Assure them that if he develops ANY problems at all with his penis you will race him to the doctor to get treated ASAP. Then change the subject.


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## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

Hi Eric,
Here's some links to a film for medical students that was made by physicians at the Univ of Washington on the importance of the foreskin. It is very detailed and I learned so much from watching it.

(WMP, streaming) http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...C/prepuce.html

(WMP, download) http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...TSC_256k_D.wmv


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

That was an informative medical video.

Well - my wife is on my side now. Anti-circ!

Funny addition to the story: her older sister (one of the biggest pro-circ people in our family - certainly the most vocal) told my wife to talk to their dad. He's intact.
Her sister's idea backfired on her - their father said to leave him intact.

Apparently her 15 year old brother got a semi-circ back in the day also. The story there goes that their dad and mom didn't want him to get one, but the doc talked them into a semi-circ since it would be "cleaner."

Thanks to Shanon for sending me the Penn & Teller video. I had already pretty much won my wife over to my side by the time we watched it, but it only reinforced my wife's desire to NOT have it done. One question - did that couple end up getting the circ? That couple was pretty funny - it reminded me of my situation.

Am I being paranoid to tell the doctors/nurses in the hospital to not forcibly retract his foreskin? We are in the midwest after all.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Yay yay yay!























A big kudos to your wife for coming around!







And to you for sticking to your guns.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Thanks for the update, Eric!!!

What pleases me most about this entire process is how you and your wife worked through it together (granted, there were a few ups and downs). You respected her feelings enough to provide informtaion gently; she respected your feelings enough to listen to what you had to say. And you BOTH looked at it from the perspective of what's best for the baby.

You are going to be fantastic parents together!!


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Eric, congrats on your son and your awesome (non) decision to leave him intact







!!!!!!

I'll bet that any reservations your wife might still have about leaving him intact will fly out the window once your baby is born. The thought of doing anything that might harm him will seem insane and she'll wonder how anyone could ever do that to their baby. Every time you change his diaper and see his intact penis you and your wife are going to be so happy with your decision. You're going to be so proud of yourselves as parents and happy for him that he gets his whole body and is his own person. I can tell you that I haven't felt so clearly good about anything in a long, long time as I do about our (non) decision to leave our boy intact.

After we brought our son home, for like the first 2 weeks, every time my husband changed his diaper he said "Look how pefect his penis is, that's how it's _supposed_ to look". Course, then half the time he gets angry because he was circed.... bc the drs would have circed our son..... bc our society circs in general. But most often, it's just a good feeling.

And YES you have to watch the drs and nurses like a hawk and don't let DS out of your sight for one second....period. Plus, it's good for bonding, anyway.


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InDaPhunk*
And YES you have to watch the drs and nurses like a hawk and don't let DS out of your sight for one second....period. Plus, it's good for bonding, anyway.









:

This may be too much too soon but better sooner than too late.....
If you ever take him into the ER be especially watchful. FYI, you do not have to retract for a urine sample even if a catheter is used.


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Bravo to you and your wife!!!






















You two will make awesome parents!






















Your marriage will be stronger in the long run, too, for having faced these issues and reconciling your differences. Best of all, you'll have a happy, intact baby boy!
Everyone wins!


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
Am I being paranoid to tell the doctors/nurses in the hospital to not forcibly retract his foreskin? We are in the midwest after all.

Probably a little bit. I've only heard of one case of it in a hospital being done to a neonate. Any time after that, absolutely yes, be very paranoid. Any time your son will be in any medical facility, do NOT get farther than an arms length from him and be cocked and ready to fire. Tell them in advance that your son is not to be retracted for any reason in a very firm voice while watching their reaction. If you see anything that bothers you, stop everything until you feel they are in agreement and you feel comfortable enough to go on.

Frank


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baybee*
Hi Eric,
Here's some links to a film for medical students that was made by physicians at the Univ of Washington on the importance of the foreskin. It is very detailed and I learned so much from watching it.

(WMP, streaming) http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...C/prepuce.html

(WMP, download) http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...TSC_256k_D.wmv

Do you know if this is available in a format suitable for projecting to an audience, like for an in-service or something?


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## birthdancedoula (Nov 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
Probably a little bit. I've only heard of one case of it in a hospital being done to a neonate. Any time after that, absolutely yes, be very paranoid.
Frank

Even though most nursing texts specifically say never to retract a neonate, it has been my experience that most nurses will leave intact newborns alone simply b/c 1. they assume they will be circ'd before they leave the hospital or 2. b/c they think that the parents will have it done later (usually due to a $ issue). I would say that you are right to be on your guard, maybe not so much while you are in the hospital after birth, but still be aware. Anytime after that watch them like a hawk and let them know that you require permission before doing anything to your baby. Decent clinicians will always ask/and or explain before proceeding.

Congratulations on making a truly informed refusal of circ!


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
Do you know if this is available in a format suitable for projecting to an audience, like for an in-service or something?

You could contact D.O.C. and ask them. I'm sure they would be very accomodating if they can.

Frank


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## FuelJetA (Oct 7, 2004)

Eric,
Again congrats.

On the data disc I sent you, there is an 'Intact Care Agreement.' When our son had surgery we made the doctors sign that agreement and then they legally must abide by the rules therein, or they know that you will sue them, not only for medical malpractice but also breach of contract.

Just a quick aside! Carry on!


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks for sending it to me, FuelJet.

Has anyone else seen the Penn & Teller program on circumcision? It was interesting to actually see that Dr. Schoen character. He's such a flake, I think he actually does his cause a disservice.
I can't help but wonder what that young couple did in the end.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I'm pretty sure they cut their baby. I think I remember reading it on the Penn & Teller message board.


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Well, my son is here. He's perfect, and I love him more than anything on the planet!









Of course, he is uncircumcised.

Quick question - is it normal for me to be worrying about him a lot? I'm worried as heck when people are holding him...like I'm worried they may give him a cold or drop him or something. I'll admit I'm being paranoid - I just need some reassurance, folks.

Thanks,
Eric


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

It's normal, especially since this is your first baby. You get used to them after that. LOL!

Don't worry about him getting sick. If your wife is nursing, he may still get a little cold, but it's very unlikely that he'd he'd get really sick.


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

Congrats!!!


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## Paddington (Aug 25, 2003)

I'm still paranoid and my son will be 3 in April and I have another one on the way!

Congrats on your intact baby! I am sure he is perfect!


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## ericisbacchus (Sep 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wendy1221*
It's normal, especially since this is your first baby. You get used to them after that. LOL!

Don't worry about him getting sick. If your wife is nursing, he may still get a little cold, but it's very unlikely that he'd he'd get really sick.









Thank you.

Yes, my wife is nursing, but he's getting both at this point.
We always start off on the breasts, and then move on to formula when he is done.

It's a long story - but basically my wife's milk has been slow coming in. We did a test where he was weighed before and after nursing, and he got 0.6 oz
so he needs a little more. I hope my wife's milk comes in better (it's only been 10 days since he was born), but if not at least he's still getting the antibodies/benefits of some of his mothers milk. Some is better than none, the lactation consultant says.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Head over to the breastfeeding forums for some good advice on breastfeeding. If she's supplementing she should be pumping- a LOT and if at all possible supplementing with something other than a bottle.

-Angela


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Congratulations on the birth of your babe Eric! I am happy to hear he is healthy, happy and whole









And yes, paranoia is perfectly normal...our babies need us to protect them and it is a natual instinct to want to. In some people the instinct is just stronger....it does tend to settle down though









Take care,
Tara


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Congratulations on the birth of your new intact son!









I second the suggestion for your dw to head to the breastfeeding forums ASAP. She's gotten some BAD advice concerning bf. Supplementing with formula will only hurt her supply. Unfortunately, the doctors are as ignorant about bf as they are about intact penises.









It's perfectly normal to worry about your newborn. That's just your parenting instincts kicking in.

Again, congratulations!







Congratulations to you for sticking up for your whole baby!







You rock!








Edited to correct a spelling error.


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## Paddington (Aug 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna*
Head over to the breastfeeding forums for some good advice on breastfeeding. If she's supplementing she should be pumping- a LOT and if at all possible supplementing with something other than a bottle.

-Angela









:

It is the extra sucking when he runs out that is going to get your wife's milk supply up--it tells your wife's body baby needs more! Otherwise her supply will stay the same....


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## schatz (May 6, 2003)

I missed this thread the first time around but had to skip to page 5 when I realized your wife must have had the baby - yea! Congrats and wonderful that he's intact.

Re: your wife supplementing with formula after bfing -- have her talk to an IBCLC -- someone who really knows their stuff. If your son was full term, he really needs to be nursing full-time and not being weighed after a feeding. Your wife won't establish a full supply that way -- she needs stimulation from him often. Even if he eats every hour, that's ok - he's only 10 days old. Both my kids were weighed pre- and post-feeding but they were in the NICU and couldn't afford to lose any weight. And, to offset their inability to adequately nurse, I pumped like crazy. Since this is your first baby, your wife has no idea that she might be setting herself up for failure with bfing by using formula now.

Good luck and congrats!


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## MistyMM (Aug 7, 2003)

:

sometimes it can seem intimidating when you are a first time parent about breastfeeding. The best advice I can give you and your wife, is to take that little bundle of joy and spend the WHOLE DAY in bed with him, nursing whenever and however often he wants. if it's every 10 mins great! You should cater to your wife's every need during this in bed session, make sure she hasPLENTY to drink and eat, and let her get up to go potty whenever she needs. spending the first few weeks in bed nursing, without a scale or clock nearby, and skipping the bottles and throwing out the formula, is the best way to ensure a successful nursing relationship.

Misty
who has been there, her first was a preemie, listening to the docs, he never would have successfully nursed, good thing I told them where they could go..he nursed for 14.5 mos!


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Congratulations!









And yes, it's TOTALLY normal to worry - here you are, responsible for a whole new person!









If you need an IBCLC (board-certified lactation consultant), go to www.ilca.org and you can search by zip code.

Also, call your local La Leche League leader for free help. www.lalecheleague.org and go to groups - you can search by state.


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## schatz (May 6, 2003)

:
















YES! I forgot about doing a "breast fest" - I did this with my dd when she was 3 weeks old -- at that time we were still doing a combo of nursing and bottles of breast milk. A public health nurse actually told me that if I wanted a breastfed baby who sometimes got a bottle rather than a bottlefed baby who sometimes breastfed, I just had to go for it. That weekend I did just as misty said and nursed round the clock and my dd nursed for 23 months after that!

We're not trying to criticize your wife by the way, we just want to see her succeed!


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Congratulations!

And I agree with everyone else, she needs to just nurse and stop supplementing. The more she supplements now, the more she's going to need to supplement.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Both my boys lost a lot of weight when they were born and didn't get back to their birth weight until about 2 or 3 weeks and they are fine and normal sized and healthy. Formula fed babies gain from birth but breastfed babies often do not and that is okay. Some people do not know this, even lactation consultants, and make you worry needlessly. If she doesn't quit the formula, she won't make enough milk.


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## acrathbun (Apr 27, 2004)

As an LC, I always get a little nervous when I hear people say "ditch the formula."

For the record, most mothers will make plenty of milk, and if their supply is suffering it is *usually* something relatively easily corrected like Latch or nursing frequency or needless supplementation.

However, there is a small percentage of mothers who truly, truly struggle with milk supply - even if they are doing everything 'right.' Sometimes the reason is clear: medications, prior struggles with infertility, abnormal breast development etc. Other times we can be detectives and look and look but never find a clear answer.

This baby was only (according to it's father) transferring 0.6 ounces per feeding. That's not enough. Now, maybe this was a late afternoon/evening feeding (when supply is naturally a bit lower), or maybe the scale wasn't super-accurate (my personal preference is the Medela Babyweigh - it's accurate to 2 grams & can calculate intake for you). But regardless, ditching the supplement w/o really excellent follow up is a bad idea in this case.

I have seen a handful of babies whose mothers followed this kind of well-meant advice...some did okay, but others came to me very, very ill.

I'm not saying that a "nursing fest" or whatever doesn't work, because sometimes it truly does. I'm just saying proceed with caution. And remember that there are some good galactogogues out there if you need them.


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericisbacchus*
Well, my son is here. He's perfect, and I love him more than anything on the planet!









Yay







: and congratulations

Of course, he is uncircumcised.

Quick question - is it normal for me to be worrying about him a lot? I'm worried as heck when people are holding him...like I'm worried they may give him a cold or drop him or something. I'll admit I'm being paranoid - I just need some reassurance, folks.

Thanks,
Eric[/QUOTE]















so sweet

Yes perfectly normal to worry so much. I remember quivering when a cooing stranger stroked my baby's hair. The transformation into a parent amazes me.

And I would definitely seek lots of input on the nursing thing. What others have said is true about supply and demand and so supplementing can make it difficult for the mother to make enough. However it is also wise to be as observant as possible and respond when necessary. Good Luck Keep looking for the people to support what you want. With any luck you can get it!


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