# How to talk circumcision w/ a husband who is pro-circumcise



## malayasmommy (Oct 25, 2009)

We just found out we are having a boy (yippee!), and while I am pleased beyond words there is one discussion that now needs to be had between my husband and I--the circumcision discussion. I'm sure I don't need to explain my reasons to being anti-circumcision to this group, but in the brief conversations we've had I know my husband is very pro. He stated to me that his main concerns are: 1. cleanliness; 2. looking like his daddy; and 3. "fitting in" with other boys and not being ostracized by girls. Regarding cleanliness, my brother was actually not circumcised many years ago and had to be circumcised at a later age (4) because of ongoing infection despite cleaning the area--so my husband knows of a specific example. 2. & 3. I can try and give my husband all the "research" in the world but I am sure he's going by emotion and his own experience to guide him on this. My initial thought is to say that I trust him to make the best decision for our son, but that before he leads w/ emotion I would like for him to read a few articles that describe my concerns. I don't want to give him gory graphic info (as I think his knee-jerk reaction would be to be defensive), but I want to give him articles that make his really think through whether or not this is TRULY best for our son. Can any of you who have been in this situation tell me how this discussion happened with you, and/or can you refer me to good, thoughtful articles? Thanks for sticking with me through this long note!


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## othersomethings (Jul 4, 2007)

we just found out that we are having a boy too. This topic hadn't registered on my mind yet - I'm still processing the whole "there's someone with a penis in my belly..." thing. (maybe I'm just weird. I don't know.)

But I brought the subject up with DH when I was pregnant with DD, and we didn't exactly see eye to eye.

I'm thinking this time, when I bring it up, I'm going to use the "the onus of proof is on you" tactic and the "it can always be done later but it can never be undone" argument.


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## starbyfar7 (Jul 21, 2010)

that's really tough. before we found out the sex of our baby, i was open to reading more about not circumcising and DP was unequivocally for it. we didn't really get to discuss it much because there was really nothing to discuss at the time. i hadn't done enough research to be able to hit him with all the facts and he was being pretty stubborn about it.

maybe you could talk about how circumcision makes the penis less sensitive. i didn't know this, but i read a debate on another forum a few mom's had comparing circumcision to female genital mutilation and it struck me as very interesting. that could be a good starting point for you guys?


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## Pavlovs (Dec 25, 2007)

When we had our first son, my husband was pro-circumcision for the reasons you stated. After I had done some research and come to my own non-circ conclusion, we talked about it. Ultimately I gave him the decision since he knows what it's like to have a penis and I don't. All I asked of him was to do some research into the matter before he decided.

A couple of weeks later he told me that despite his feelings of wanting his son to look like him, he couldn't find any scientific reasons to cut our son. I was so relieved! I don't think there's another way I could have gone about it with him to allow him to come to that conclusion - otherwise he'd have gotten defensive I think.

With our second son we never even had the discussion, so I have to assume that he doesn't regret his decision.

I hope you find what works for you!


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## puddle (Aug 30, 2007)

I highly recommend reading this essay.


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## StarCat (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *othersomethings*
> 
> we just found out that we are having a boy too. This topic hadn't registered on my mind yet - I'm still processing the whole "there's someone with a penis in my belly..." thing.


I'm so GLAD that I'm not the only one slightly freaking out about that!! After 2 girls it feels WEIRD to have a boy in there!!

About circ- I also made the agreement with DH that he could ultimately make the final decision about what to do with the penis since he has one and I do not. He is STRONGLY opposed to circ. His main reasons are because it removes a significant portion of the nerve endings in the penis. I am thinking that more and more people are opting to NOT circ (especially since many hospitals do not do it and medicare doesn't cover it) that maybe when our boys are older it won't be as wierd. We have a frined who I know is not circumcised (from Europe) I know just via hearing the guys talk but I don't know how to ask if it ever bothered him growing up in the states. I'm sure he would be open to the discussion but its still kinda wierd to ask.


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## kittn (Mar 6, 2006)

my oldest was circd I didn't even know I had a choice.same wit #2 and number 3 I didn't feel strongly enough about it to make him different than dad and all 3 boys. but... i saw a video of one being done and BOOM just couldn't do it. my DH saw it too after I did. we never circd#4 and if we do have another boy we will not circ. for Daniel it was seeing how its done that made a difference


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## mclisa (Jul 26, 2004)

In regards to looking different in the locker room...consider where you live. Europe has low rates of circs. In the States, the coasts, TX, NM, AZ have low rates too. There are higher rates in the Midwest, but in my area circs are at 70% of boys and dropping.

He's going to find boys who look like him and don't look like him where ever he goes.

As far as looking different that dad, dad has been through puberty, so he already looks different.


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## hannybanany (Jun 3, 2006)

We had this discussion several years ago. At first DH was pro circ, but not for any really good reasons (because I am, it's cleaner, etc). We kept discussing it and I think what really made a difference to him was talking about how absolutely perfect DD1 was at birth - would we ever consider cutting off a part of her body, unnecessarily, causing her tremendous pain? NO!! Why would we do that to a son?

Now he talks to friends, and most recently my brother, about not circing their sons.

We have a boy on the way after two girls and I am so relieved that we've already had this discussion and it's settled. It's stressful, even more so when you're pregnant. I wish I had some actual advice... Keep us posted!


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## dayiscoming2006 (Jun 12, 2007)

It's not typically done in Europe. My second boy was born in Romania and I was anti-circumcision but didn't have to worry about it because they don't normally do them. My son is now almost 2 and has absolutely no problems. Might the problems with the 4 year old have been because someone retracted his foreskin? I know that is a true concern. Foreskin infections can be equivalent to a vaginal infection. They can be treated in the same way I believe.

I agree with the argument that it can always be done later. My hubby did end up being circumcised even though he's from Romania but not until later and it was due to an infection that probably could have been cleared up.

I did circumcise my first as I didn't know anything else and thought it was basically expected but I found it a bit disturbing at times as his penis for now seems more sensitive than his brothers when he was wearing diapers or potty pants and his little wee wee would go up way more often than his uncircumcised brother. I actually don't think I've ever seen my second boy with that problem. Also, I found it easier to change diapers because the wee wee will just stay pointed down better with my second boy, so there were less pee leaks.

Also, circumcisions can go wrong and I've heard of newborns dying from botched circumcisions. And newborns do feel the pain from the circumcision unlike what some believe.

Those are things I would touch on with your hubby personally.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *malayasmommy*
> 
> We just found out we are having a boy (yippee!), and while I am pleased beyond words there is one discussion that now needs to be had between my husband and I--the circumcision discussion. I'm sure I don't need to explain my reasons to being anti-circumcision to this group, but in the brief conversations we've had I know my husband is very pro. He stated to me that his main concerns are: 1. cleanliness; 2. looking like his daddy; and 3. "fitting in" with other boys and not being ostracized by girls. Regarding cleanliness, my brother was actually not circumcised many years ago and had to be circumcised at a later age (4) because of ongoing infection despite cleaning the area--so my husband knows of a specific example. 2. & 3. I can try and give my husband all the "research" in the world but I am sure he's going by emotion and his own experience to guide him on this. My initial thought is to say that I trust him to make the best decision for our son, but that before he leads w/ emotion I would like for him to read a few articles that describe my concerns. I don't want to give him gory graphic info (as I think his knee-jerk reaction would be to be defensive), but I want to give him articles that make his really think through whether or not this is TRULY best for our son. Can any of you who have been in this situation tell me how this discussion happened with you, and/or can you refer me to good, thoughtful articles? Thanks for sticking with me through this long note!


If he was repeatedly retracted and cleaned wether he was ready to or not, that can cause infection not prevent it.


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## puddle (Aug 30, 2007)

FYI--In the essay I posted earlier, it explains that while men give all those reasons mentioned, what it really comes down to is the fact that if they are circ'ed and you choose not to circ your sons, they will generally take this as you saying that you think something is wrong with their own penises. They MUST circ their sons to prove that what was done to them is preferable, and therefore their own penises are preferable. What they really need is reassurance and validation that you love them and you love their bodies just the way that they are.


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## ComfyCozy (Dec 7, 2005)

A video makes a much better statement than a discussion. A friend's husband just very recently changed his mind after watching one.


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## Lauren82 (Feb 26, 2007)

Cleanliness: The intact penis only needs to be wiped off at diaper changes just like you would wipe a finger. There is no need to ever retract the foreskin to clean under it as it is attached to the glans until it naturally separates. In some boys, retraction may not occur until PUBERTY (or even later) and that is considered fine and normal. Once the foreskin does retract, your son can be taught to rinse it in the shower or bath. Soap is not advised as is can actually cause infection just as soap in the vagina can cause an infection.

With a boy that is circumcised, the raw wound on the penis becomes exposed to the painful burning of urine and feces getting on it in his diaper. As with any surgery, there is a risk of infection, bleeding and death.

Looking like Daddy: No two people have the same genitals. A baby's genitals are never going to look like an adult's genitals. Is your husband planning on shaving off all of his pubic hair so he can match the baby? We do not get our daughters breast implants so they can have the look of developed breasts like mama has. The only thing my 8 year old intact son has said about his circumcised father's penis is that he feels bad someone cut part of it off! To me this argument has absolutely no merit at all. If the child ever does ask why his father doesn't have foreskin, someone can gently explain that when Daddy was little, they thought it was okay to cut off the foreskin but now they know there is no reason to do that.

Fitting in with other boys: Lately it has been reported that the circumcision rate has dropped to only 33%. Your son would have plenty of intact friends. We all have a lot of things on our bodies that make us different physically and it's silly to expect that we all should look the same. When I was in school, if any of the guys were caught checking out other guy's stuff in the locker room, they were not regarded favorably.

Women: In my group of friends and family, we prefer a partner with an intact penis. Since more boys are being left intact, the girls that grow up in this generation will likely view an intact penis as the norm.

Here is a link with plenty of resources for you:

http://www.thewholenetwork.org/the-library.html

I also suggest visiting The Case Against Circumcision forum here on MDC as there are many resources there. You might want to take a look at the thread where parents talk about why they regret circumcising their sons.


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## bleumoose (Oct 4, 2004)

1 - cleanliness - there are far more boys who are uncirc'ed who have no problems than those who do. It's unfortunate that you have your brother's story there so close at hand, but maybe you can find information on rates of chronic infection necessitating later circumcision (This this one, maybe). Also, this isn't really an argument. Your son might also get an infection on his toe, should you cut that off now too?  (sorry if that comes off sounding snarky, I totally don't mean it that way!!  )

2 - Looking like daddy - my 2 DSs have never noticed that they look different. We've never pointed it out. If they ever do notice, we'll explain that DH's penis had part of it cut off and we chose not to cut their penises when they were babies. We don't think they'll mind that 

3 - Fitting in - As others have pointed out, circ rates are dropping. We're in the midwest and i know many, many moms with boys who are not circ'd. Could be the crowd I run in, but it gives me hope  And, as they get older and start doing lockers and whatnot, we'll talk to them about how to defend themselves against possible criticism (things like "why do you care what my penis looks like?" or "Why are you looking at my penis anyway?" or "My parents didn't cut/mutilate me when I was a baby. I'm sorry yours chose to.")

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/health/research/17circ.html

Here's a couple articles. The first one is strongly anti-circ, but cites many studies you may be able to point to, to back up your points.

http://www.intactamerica.org/dangerousmistake

http://www.listen2yourgut.com/blog/circumcision-good-or-bad/

If it comes down to it, you can always ask DH to wait and not do it in the hospital, and have your ped do it a week or two later. It's possible in that time he may change his mind, once he's grown used to seeing the uncirc'd penis during diaper changes and whatnot.


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## mamaki (Aug 23, 2010)

I have a son who is not circumcised but circumcision wasn't even an issue for discussion because no one in my ex's family or my family is circumcised (he's of European background and my family is British/New Zealand). It won't be an issue for me this time as no one in my partner's family is circumcised either (he's American).

Regarding cleanliness - my son is nearly 4 yrs old and for about 2 years now he's been cleaning it himself. It's never been an issue. He didn't like me cleaning it so I told him to do it himself. I taught him how and he's always done a good job - he's had no issues. As long as boys keep cleaning it properly it shouldn't be an issue.

As far as boys looking like their Dad.... well they are not going to look anything like their Dad until they go through puberty. Boy's penises look very different to man's penises so this isn't even an issue IMO. If anything it's more important that they look like their peers - though I doubt they spend a long time looking at eachother's penises... idk. Here in Canada the trend is not to circumcise, so if boys are circumcised they will be in the minority.

There are always anecdotal cases of boys having to be circumcised when they're older for various reasons. Most boys who aren't circumcised are just fine that way.

The other thing I feel strongly about is that you're cutting something very personal off their body. Shouldn't that be the child's choice? It's the same reason I didn't have my daughter's ears pierced... it should be her decision to permanently alter her body (it will be her choice when she's old enough to make that decision). Just as important when we're talking permanently altering a penis! Men who are circumcised lose sensation in their penis when they're older from all the constant rubbing on their clothes... so they don't have as much feeling with sex. That doesn't sound like fun!

There is some good information regarding circumcision on the Canadian Pediatric Society website. It's not pushy and it's not too long - has statistics... might be something your husband would read and not feel like he was being bullied.

Good luck!


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## tntmom (Nov 30, 2007)

I had actually prepared myself to battle my DH about this very issue when I pg with DS. However our discussion somehow went very smoothly. My main reason for not wanting to do it was because it wasn't my body. I have real issue that parents get to make this decision in the first place. It's not my penis, it's not my husband's, why should either of us have a say in cutting off a completely normal, healthy, functional part of our child? I think that if baby was female people would be horrified to suggest performing cosmetic surgery on them as infants.

DS ended up being born considerably early and we spent 6 weeks in the NICU. They asked us once if we wanted it done because it would have to be scheduled 2 weeks in advance because there was only one neonatologist on staff that would perform circ's. This was at a large Children's Hospital in the Midwest....so my assumption is that at least among preemie's at that particular hospital the rates are probably lower than average.

As a side note (and I hope I don't offend anyone as that's not my intent!) I don't understand why many women say their DH/partner gets to make the decision just because they also have a penis. Why does that matter? I'm not being snarky....I honestly don't get that thought process though.....especially if your DH is circ'ed.....he doesn't know what it's like to be intact anyhow so he has no personal experience to go on to make an unbiased opinion.

All this said, had my sister not introduced me to MDC I am 100% positive my child would have been circ'ed as I didn't question the medical establishment a whole heck of a lot before I read some of the threads here. Thanks to all the wonderful women who led me to do my own research and protect my DS from surgery!!!


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## motherhendoula (Feb 13, 2009)

My ex-husband is Jewish, so our DS was circumcised - i didnt want to do it - but i had an entire family citing 5000 years of 'tradition' so i folded. It was terrible, that poor baby cried so much over the next week - it was so obvious he was in pain.

My second husband is not Jewish- when i broached the subject of c'cising he was on the fence- again, wanting baby to look like Dad, not be rejected by girls etc..etc...Then a friend of ours described how their sons c-cision was almost botched, - something about a clamp not opening back up when it was supposed to. After just hearing that a clamp was required to perform this procedure my DH#2 was horrified, did some of his own research - found out exactly what happens and is now a huge advocate *agains*t c'cising.

I think you need to bring this subject closer to 'home' with your husband - i think many men would freak out and resist a clamp on their penis! When he really has to confront exactly what he is doing to his young baby - he may be able to get past all the reasons and just leave him alone! Good Luck!


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## Queen of my Castle (Nov 11, 2005)

There's some really great info on this thread, and I don't need to repeat it, but I encouage you to HAVE this conversation with your husband, and have it many times, if need be. Ask him to consider the information you can bring to him about the cons of circ'ing. I find, in my experience with friends and family, that most men come around when provided with some good information, even though most are circ'ed themselves. Locally and in Ontario, only about 40% of baby boys are circ'ed now, so those uncircumsized boys will be in good company. A pp'er made a good point that there will always be other kids who look and don't look like them.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *puddle*
> 
> FYI--In the essay I posted earlier, it explains that while men give all those reasons mentioned, what it really comes down to is the fact that if they are circ'ed and you choose not to circ your sons, they will generally take this as you saying that you think something is wrong with their own penises. They MUST circ their sons to prove that what was done to them is preferable, and therefore their own penises are preferable. What they really need is reassurance and validation that you love them and you love their bodies just the way that they are.


I think this is really quite true. My dh, when finding out about other's who've circ'ed, will say 'I don't understand. they must have security or self-confidance issues'.

In our own case, we chose not to circ our firstborn b/c our dr. shared excellent info with us that it wasn't necessary, offered no benefits, and was outrageously expensive. Obviously, we said, 'meh, not thanks'. No big deal, really. As time went on we began to feel more and more strongly that an intact penis was much more 'normal' and healthier. Our son has never had issues, of course. After the birth of my daughter, we accidentally, seperately overheard another baby being circ'ed, I even heard the conversation between the dr. and nurse before the procedure. When I came back into my room, where my husband sat with my daughter, we were both in tears and so traumatized by what we heard. We will never feel nonchalant again about it 

Lastly, anecdotally, regarding 'comparing' penises between father and son (father circ'ed, son isn't), my ds has NEVER noticed daddy's penis looks different despite often bathing together (it obviously looks different anyway, just like my vagina looks different from my daughter's), but he has asked why a friend's was so 'small!' in the tub, lol, and what kind of penis it was.


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## Liora (Aug 11, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *othersomethings*
> 
> we just found out that we are having a boy too. This topic hadn't registered on my mind yet - I'm still processing the whole "there's someone with a penis in my belly..." thing. (maybe I'm just weird. I don't know.)
> 
> ...


I agree with the above. My husband is (thankfully) against MGM and is currently going through foreskin restoration but if he wasn't I would never make it his decision. The default is how the baby was born and if he wants to surgically alter that then HE can try to convince you. If your son wants to "look like dad" he can make that choice at the age of consent instead of being robbed of the choice as an infant.


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## nerdymom (Mar 20, 2008)

There is some good information being given here, and I also would like to refer you to the Case Against Circumcision Forum here on MDC. There are really well educated people who are devoted to that forum and that cause, and this question is one they are used to addressing.

Now let me personally address a few of your concerns. 1) cleanliness. My husband is intact. He was born in Holland where medical circumcision is unheard of and seen as barbaric. DH, his cousins, his male relatives and friends were all intact, and because their parents knew how to care for an intact penis, none (to MiL's knowledge) ever "needed" to be circ'd for repeated infection. 2) Looking like Daddy. Ask your DH if he remembers what his dad's penis looks like. My husband and son are both intact. That doesn't mean their penises look the same.

3) fitting in with peers. In 2009 68% of American parents chose NOT to circumcise. And circ rates have been declining since the 1980s, and continue to drop. So keeping your son intact means that he will be like the majority of *HIS* peers.

I would also mention that each year, circ kills nearly as many babies as SIDS. To quote the article: "The study found that approximately 117 neonatal (first 28 days after birth) circumcision-related deaths occur annually in the United States, [...] To put this in perspective, about 44 neonatal boys die each year from suffocation, and 8 from auto accidents. About 115 neonatal boys die annually from SIDS"

And here is a little logic for ya: http://www.drmomma.org/2010/11/circumcision-most-twisted-logic-in.html

(eta - correct formatting error)


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## kissum (Apr 15, 2006)

I'm really lucky, my DH came around very quickly. The one thing that really convinced him was that it's not his body, and it's not his choice. He does computer security for a living, so the idea of someone else taking away your personal choices really struck home with him. Hopefully you'll find something that will help your DH see your side. I also think you should try logic and information first, but that the videos and pictures can be really compelling. There's been some good resources listed here, good luck!


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## shellnurse (Apr 9, 2009)

crashing from December DDC-I just had this issue with DH. I looked up the American Academy of pediatrics statement from 1997 (not sure if that's the most recent or not) It has about ten pages of risks of not circumcising but then at the end says that they don't recommend it in spite of these risks. Sounds good to me.

I also looked up some stories on this board from"The Case against circumcision" group and told him about the poor baby that had severe bleeding afterward to the point that he was waist deep in blood in his carseat. Manipulative,cruel and wrong, I know, but I got my point across. DH didn't have a strong opinion, he just knew he wanted to do it because everyone else does it. Now we are planning to" leave it alone."


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## ILoveMyBabyBird (Sep 2, 2006)

i'd go with the "it's not my body argument" Point out to your dh if your ds wants it done he can CHOOSE to do so in the future. That being said I did ultimately leave the decision to my dh as I at the time was not swayed either way, but my dh is not circumsized and he was not about to let our ds be circumsized. I have since done research on the subject and do feel strongly that boys should be left intact, but i am glad that my dh was against it from the get go.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

DDC crashing to say that our Bradley teacher convinced my hubby. She showed a video. Said why it was wrong and "poof" my hubby is an intactivist! Thanks, Gail!


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## pandora665 (Mar 13, 2006)

Find a video of the actual procedure, if you can. My DH and I were discussing it, and the whole "fitting in" thing and whatever.... I've been in on a circumcision as part of my medical training, and there's NO way that I would allow anyone to do that to my child. I explained that there was no anasthesia used often, and that seemed to clinch it for him.


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## ktgrok (Jun 19, 2008)

There was a recent new story that showed that about the same number of babies DIE each year from circumcision as SIDS. http://www.icgi.org/2010/04/infant-circumcision-causes-100-deaths-each-year-in-us/The risk of death is very real. Also, as for looking like his father...um....a child's penis will not be big, he won't have pubic hair, etc....in other words it isn't going to look anything like the father's. And once he is old enough that it might they won't be getting naked together. As for it being weird, the most recent stats show that MOST boys being born now are NOT circumcised. http://www.davidwilton.com/files/2010-08-05_zoler.pdf So he won't be in the minority. Girls will be used to intact penises. Cleaning is no big deal, it's no more complicated than cleaning a girl's vulva.

Finally, if it helps at all, my son is intact. He is now 11. The other day I had to explain what circumcision was based on something we were reading in the Bible. He was HORRIFIED!!!! He looked right at me and said "THANK YOU for not doing that to me!" This boy doesn't say much, and never says thank you without being prompted. It was truly heartfelt, and made me feel great.

I hope this helps.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I saw that a few women have taken the "you do all the research and make the decision" route, but I think that's a really bad idea. It sounds like it worked out well for the children of the women who posted about it on this thread, it has the potential to be very dangerous. While I would hope that if your husbands do actual research and are reasonable minded men and would make the right decision - what happens if they don't? Are you actually willing to let your son be circumcised if he decides it's a good idea? Or will you, after telling him that he can make the decision, go back on it because he made the wrong one? I think it could be very damaging to a relationship to say "You can make the choice" and then go back on it. And, of course, it would be very damaging to your son to allow him to choose to circumcise your son.


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## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

The default is to leave the baby as he is at birth unless there is a pressing medical need to correct something right away.

Have your DH provide you with hard evidence that circ is 1) something that MUST be done, and 2) MUST be done right away. He won't be able to prove either one. But if he tries, and you don't have a response to one of his arguments, come here and we will help you. Bottom line, there is no reason circ must be done to a child - he won't be using his penis for sex until he is an adult or nearly so. And at that point, he can make the decision for himself.

Really, it's not your decision, and it's not your DH's either. The man your baby will grow to be is the only person whose opinion matters.

Leaving his penis alone is the only way to preserve his options for the future - circ can always be done later, but it can never be undone.

And to address the concerns you listed:

1. Cleanliness. Girls are way harder to get clean, but we don't cut bits off of them just to make it easier. You wipe a baby's intact penis like a finger (from base to tip) - no retracting or scrubbing with soap needed (and in fact, that can CAUSE problems and recurrent infections). And in just a few years, the boy will be able to take care of washing himself.

2. Look like Daddy. This is an emotional argument, and not based in rationality or hard data. See the article that a previous poster linked - this argument has more to do with feeling good about himself (and knowing that YOU think highly of sex with him) than what is best for the baby. If he has a sense of humor, tell him that he can shave all his hair in the area and use ice packs to make his smaller and more like his son's. But really, when was the last time he compared genitals with his own father? Probably never.

3a. Fitting in with other boys. The circ rate in the US has dropped dramatically in the last several years, so there is a good chance that the intact boys will outnumber the cut ones in your son's social circle or school. But even if they don't, who do you think will feel bad - the kids with all the penis that nature gave them, or the ones who's penises were surgically reduced? Plus, saying "Why are you looking at my junk?" is all that is needed to deter comments. Kids have more of a fear of being thought gay than motivation to bully others about their genitals.

3b. Being ostracized by girls. The circ rate has dropped. Girls of your son's generation will be familiar with the intact penis. Already magazines aimed at young women have articles about the differences and similarities between intact and cut (Cosmo). This will only increase as the babies of today grow up into adults. Also, think about this: What would you think of a boyfriend that didn't like that a daughter's genitals weren't altered? I know that I would think he certainly wasn't boyfriend material, and would hope that he never contacted her again! Same thing for a son - a foreskin can act as a really good filter against terribly shallow women.


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## PlainandTall (May 21, 2010)

I faced this issue 12 years ago (it was sort of the turning point in me becoming an intactivist rather than simply a parent who chose not to circumcise)

I did it all wrong (because I had NO IDEA what I was up against)

I thought it was about the baby.

For me this was not a question or a decision- this was not going to happen and it might have broken up our marriage if it came to that- it almost did.

I don't know how the subject got brought up, but I think I might have just offhandedly assumed that we weren't going to circumcise because DUH... you don't cut off bits of other people's penises.... and WOW- I was not prepared for the total WALL of defensiveness I got. "You must hate me" etc... it was all about him and his sexual ego and the fact that I was supposed to prove that he was perfect and awesome etc etc... by doing what had been done to him to the baby. If I respected the WHOLE male, based on the fact that I knew whole men and respected their foreskin as a part of their sexual anatomy - (like full of veins and able to feel sexual pleasure- and as such it was precious not GARBAGE...) oh the hell opened up.... how dare I acknowledge sexual anatomy he does not posess. I might have well called him an impotent sexual cripple. He was irate. This was not normal behavior for him- but it was like I hit a trigger that just flipped him to total irrational maniac who coluld not be reasoned with. We fought for days or weeks... I don't remember exactly... how long does hell last? I was on bedrest- I had placenta previa... I was praying I'd deliver a living baby of a survivable gestation and he was planning of cutting up the baby's penis as soon as it was born just to prove he wasn't sexually damaged. One of the fights included a total primal meltdown sobbing in the fetal position insisting that he was not damaged. ... Whoa. (at this point in the tale may I sugged reading Ronald Goldman's book, Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma)

I don't know what happened exactly behind my back, but he looked into it himself and something must have gotten through and he begrudgingly softened his stance. The night our son was born (by the grace of God we both lived) another instinct kicked in- his previous desire to defend a past circumcision became a firey desire to protect his beautiful baby. He didn't REALLY get it till he was standing in the bloody OR holding our new baby.

Years later we found out two additional important facts. 1. His father was intact (he'd argued a boy must look like dad) 2. His parents did not chose to circumcise him- it was done as part of the hospital routine and had his parents even had the option, they would have said no. This story was never relayed to him because... well, typical shame and secrecy surrounding this issue which is everyone's business but the man who has the penis.

So here is my advice to you, if you haven't already. Leave the baby out of it for now. Leave your own ideas out of it for now. Begin by asking lots of questions and together collecting answers. The object is not to be making a circumcision decision- it's about first trying to reclaim a little objectivity so that you can approach this question without the burden of "circumcision is great because I'm circumcised, to question circumcision is to question me and I'm just not going to let you go there."

One thing I'd suggest doing is talking with the inlaws about his circumcision. You aren't asking their advice- you are getting the history. Know the reasons and whatever the reason is, there is an empowering way to question that reason that builds the circumcised (infant) man up. Try to put the event of that infant circumcision in the context of the time, the information given, the empowerment of the birth process, the decision making model etc. If possible go back another generation to his grandparents as well.

I also think that it's wise to ask him to research it and to ask him to make a list of his concerns. Then address his concerns together one by one.

If you begin with your opinion, you may just begin a dynamic of defensiveness that goes no where.

What you need to understand that one of the reasons why circumcision is so powerful is because circumcised people NEED their beliefs to cling to in order to avoid facing the reality of what was done to them. Thinking about circumcision as sexual damage rather than the sexual advantage is really painful! I suggest concepts presented by James Atherton on Learning as loss, Resistance to learning and superlative learning. In order to acquire new understanding requires a person to enter a destabilizing period of letting go of previously learned beliefs. http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/resistan.htm

Before you begin to discuss the baby you must discover the truth about his beliefs about his own circumcision.


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## TyrantOfTheWeek (May 25, 2009)

I agree with the abovesaids. Especially with the making him watch one. You can Google "circ video" and a whole bunch should pop up. But, in the end, you are the mama bear, and YOU have to protect your baby -- even from daddy. He may throw a tantrum about it, but eventually, he will get over it. Or he will walk away.

The circ conversations kinda went like this with the fathers' of my 3 sons. (I have been married 3 times, and had a boy with each one..LOL)

"Hey, if this baby is a boy, he will not be circed. Period."

First husband was pissed and fought me about it. I didn't sleep in the hospital at all making sure he didn't sign anything behind my back.

Second husband was like "Ok, no biggie"

Current husband was like "I have no preference either way. I wish we would kinda because of family tradition."


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## MrsBone (Apr 20, 2004)

I think my DH probably still doesn't have a huge problem with circ even though we didn't circ our son, but he ultimately left the decision up to me because he told me that obviously I had strong feelings about the matter, and since he didn't feel as strongly about it as me, that I could make the decision. Same with vax. It's all he's ever known, and didn't think that they were a big deal, but again knew I felt strongly about it and left the decision up to me. No amount of articles, research, etc. would really have swayed his opinion, but he just knew I had done lots of research and had a strong opinion, so he figured that was good enough. This is huge, since he's very opinionated about lots of things, and does everything he can to convince me that he's right about stuff!


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## karanyavel (May 8, 2010)

Here are the arguments I would present (in no particular order):

1. Infection rarely becomes a concern unless (usually well-meaning) parents/doctors attempt to retract the foreskin too early for cleaning. And if your son DOES (extremely unlikely) need to be circumcised later on, they don't strap toddlers and older kids to a board and do it without adequate pain control. It's much less brutal when it's not being performed on a newborn. Regarding his concerns about infection, show him the information the AAP has, and remind him that the procedure itself carries risks -- including a higher rate of infection (caused by an open wound swimming in germs in the boy's diaper). Don't forget that one risk of circumcision is penile amputation (a thought that would make most men cringe and grab himself protectively).

2. Circumcision, when performed on newborns, is a brutal and horrendously painful experience. Show him a video -- not an anti-circ video, but one of those instructional videos for doctors where you can see and hear the baby screaming in the background while the doctor does it. And since he's concerned about hygiene, ask him what he thinks about his son having an open wound on his penis that is exposed to urine and feces.

3. Foreskin status is minor compared to the other differences between his son's genitals and his. When his son sees his pieces-parts, chances are he's going think BIG and HAIRY, not "Why does Daddy's penis not have a foreskin?"

4. Circumcision rates have dropped tremendously in the US. Your son will see a mixture of about half-and-half circumcised and uncircumcised boys in the locker room.

5. IMO, the most important argument of all: your son's penis belongs to him. No one else should be making such a permanent, life-altering decision for him, especially not when the only "advantage" is cosmetic (and of course, that's debatable). Once it's done, it can't be undone, but your son can always choose -- as an adult or maybe older teenager -- to have the procedure performed if HE wants to.

--K


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Simple - This is not a parenting decision. There is no decision to made at all. What other body parts can we cut off our children just for giggles and still call it a parenting decision? This is a very personal body part and a very personal decision. The decision should be left to the person who will be using the penis.


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## Shanesmom (Oct 26, 2010)

I 100 percent agree with whomever said that what the husband really needs is reassurance that his circ isn't " bad". Than he won't do it simply to prove a point


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## bugmenot (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *malayasmommy*
> 
> We just found out we are having a boy (yippee!), and while I am pleased beyond words there is one discussion that now needs to be had between my husband and I--the circumcision discussion. I'm sure I don't need to explain my reasons to being anti-circumcision to this group, but in the brief conversations we've had I know my husband is very pro. He stated to me that his main concerns are: 1. cleanliness; 2. looking like his daddy; and 3. "fitting in" with other boys and not being ostracized by girls. Regarding cleanliness, my brother was actually not circumcised many years ago and had to be circumcised at a later age (4) because of ongoing infection despite cleaning the area--so my husband knows of a specific example. 2. & 3. I can try and give my husband all the "research" in the world but I am sure he's going by emotion and his own experience to guide him on this. My initial thought is to say that I trust him to make the best decision for our son, but that before he leads w/ emotion I would like for him to read a few articles that describe my concerns. I don't want to give him gory graphic info (as I think his knee-jerk reaction would be to be defensive), but I want to give him articles that make his really think through whether or not this is TRULY best for our son. Can any of you who have been in this situation tell me how this discussion happened with you, and/or can you refer me to good, thoughtful articles? Thanks for sticking with me through this long note!


It takes under 30 seconds to retract the foreskin and wash under it. Besides, the foreskin is self-cleaning. Think about the "how to care for a circumcised penis" information floating out there. NONE of that applies to an intact penis. Just dab the tip the same way you would a finger. With a circumcised penis, you have to check for adhesions, care for the wound, etc.

As for "looking like daddy" ask if he sat on the side of his bed and compared with his dad. By the time he realized what circumcision is, he probably didn't WANT to think of his dad's penis.

As for "fitting in with the other boys", that's another load of horse-hooey. If anyone looks at another penis in the locker room, they'd certainly shut their yap, or fear being called out. "EWWW WHAT ARE YOU DOING LOOKING DOWN THERE?!?!?!?" All of a sudden, it's the circumcised boy who feels uncomfortable. Not just for being called out, but for having that unnecessary surgery being done to his body without his consent.

As for one person who wasn't circumcised at birth, but "had to" have it later, think of the trillions of intact adults in the world. There are so many creams and other medicines that if he doesn't retract even at age 14 or 15, an amputation wouldn't be necessary.

And as other people said, put the onus TO circumcise on your husband. If he can come up with reasons to circumcise that aren't rooted in myth and aren't debunked by modern science/medicine, then tell him you'll consider it. Tell him that every reason TO circumcise has an equal counter-argument NOT to circumcise and with that in mind, you'd rather let your son make his own decision regarding his foreskin when he's old enough. *Giving your son his own decision is just about the best thing you can do. It's not circumcising, it's not keeping intact, but rather a third option that SHOULD satisify both you and your husband.*


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## bugmenot (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mclisa*
> 
> In regards to looking different in the locker room...consider where you live. Europe has low rates of circs. In the States, the coasts, TX, NM, AZ have low rates too. There are higher rates in the Midwest, but in my area circs are at 70% of boys and dropping.
> 
> ...


http://mgmbill.org/statistics.htm

That map is great to understand that not everyone looks the same.


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## bugmenot (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm*
> 
> Simple - This is not a parenting decision. There is no decision to made at all. What other body parts can we cut off our children just for giggles and still call it a parenting decision? This is a very personal body part and a very personal decision. The decision should be left to the person who will be using the penis.


Exactly!

We don't remove labia, kidneys, galbladders, spleens, intestine, or other body parts at birth. Why should we remove another healthy part, the foreskin?


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## mrsberman (May 7, 2010)

We aren't finding out what we are having, but when we were TTC I brought up the issue. DH wants the baby to be circ'ed if it's a boy and I don't. I know that the big hospital around here won't even allow parents in the room when it's being done and I'm COMPLETELY against that. My friend had a boy and she thought he was going for his nb shots (yea, I know) and he came back without a foreskin. She and her husband wanted it done, but I couldn't get over the fact the hospital would go and do it without saying that's what the baby was leaving the room for.

I'm not sure how I can get to DH about not circumcising but I think if I insist that we both have to be there, the baby has to have some sort of numbing done (my mom drove 2 hours to find a dr who would do this on my little brother and he still cried) and he has to completely research the pros/cons then he might change my mind, but we both know that won't happen.


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

> I'm not sure how I can get to DH about not circumcising but I think if I insist that we both have to be there, the baby has to have some sort of numbing done (my mom drove 2 hours to find a dr who would do this on my little brother and he still cried) and he has to completely research the pros/cons then he might change my mind, but we both know that won't happen.


I'm glad to be able to speak from experience now, as my ds is 7 months old. No amount of "meeting in the middle" will convince your husband. A cut penis is all that he knows, so you are rocking his world just by merely mentioning that this might not be a great idea. I too hoped in the beginning that if I just gave a little, that maybe dh would come around. That never happened. Circ is a yes/no checkbox. (though I would add that your son can always make the decision for himself later). My dh was VERY angry in the beginning, and we fought and fought. I started to just not bring the topic up any more, letting him look into things on his own. I didn't want him to feel badgered. I decided that, because I'm the mama, and I sign the papers... it was absolutely NOT happening to my boy. Now I definitely did not bring this up to dh, because what good would that have done? Instead, I worked on smoothing things over and building up our relationship and his ego. After all, a good deal of husband angst is that there is something wrong with THEIR penis and you are rejecting them. As we got towards the end, he was still panicky, but I went to talk to our wonderful doctor, who is Indian (and intact) whom dh has a great deal of respect for, and then had him go and talk to him. That is what finally calmed his fears... talking to someone he trusted who could lay out the real facts.

On the late, late night when my son was finally born, and dh held him in his arms in awe... he looked at me sheepishly and said quietly "you were right about the whole circumcision thing." I heard him discussing our decision with relatives, and while he is not an intactivist, he really sounds like he understands the reasons we left ds intact. Now we joke about it and think of it as a bid deal over nothing, which it truly is. Ds is our "director's cut" boy.. full length and un-edited... (in my husband's corny but loving way of describing him) Your ds's penis will NOT fall off if left alone. He's born that way for a reason. You just have to believe in yourself and be loving, gentle, but FIRM with dh. Be an unmovable rock for your tiny baby's sake.  Your hubby might huff and puff, but I know he will get over it and all will be in perspective once the baby comes.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mrsberman*
> 
> We aren't finding out what we are having, but when we were TTC I brought up the issue. DH wants the baby to be circ'ed if it's a boy and I don't. I know that the big hospital around here won't even allow parents in the room when it's being done and I'm COMPLETELY against that. My friend had a boy and she thought he was going for his nb shots (yea, I know) and he came back without a foreskin. She and her husband wanted it done, but I couldn't get over the fact the hospital would go and do it without saying that's what the baby was leaving the room for.
> 
> I'm not sure how I can get to DH about not circumcising but I think if I insist that we both have to be there, the baby has to have some sort of numbing done (my mom drove 2 hours to find a dr who would do this on my little brother and he still cried) and he has to completely research the pros/cons then he might change my mind, but we both know that won't happen.


But would you actually go through with it if he met all your demands? If you won't, then it's a bad idea to try to manipulate him into agreeing with you. I think it's more effective to say "Over my dead body" as many times as necessary.


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## TyrantOfTheWeek (May 25, 2009)

I just can't imagine gawking over my adorable newborn baby and saying "Aww, he is perfect. Well, except for that. We need to cut that off."


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## arihillfarm (Nov 1, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TyrantOfTheWeek*
> 
> I just can't imagine gawking over my adorable newborn baby and saying "Aww, he is perfect. Well, except for that. We need to cut that off."


Sadly, my sister in law said just that.







My poor nephew had to not only go through circumcision (after a week long stay in the NICU) and being home for another week, he had to go through a revision when he was almost a year old because "they didn't do it right". When I saw him being changed after the second surgery, he almost looked intact. Poor kid had to go through all that pain for basically nothing.









-Astrid


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Wow, I'm so glad I have never had to deal with this kind of discussion .

As a European I have been shocked again and again by this practice. Needless to say neither of my two sons (22 yo and 4 yo) is circumcised, and obviously neither has had any problems or worries with their foreskins. The same goes for everybody I know. I don't know a single person who would even vaguely consider doing this to their child, and I have never heard anybody mentioning any foreskin problems, UTIs in boys (they are really rare, you know!), or any hygiene worries. It is a non-issue. We don't even "wipe like a finger". The only cleaning that happens with my 4 yo's penis, is that he sits in the bath with it every two or three days. This was also true when he used diapers, except when he got poo everywhere. (But I am assuming that the idea of not even washing the penis might sound extreme to people who are used to the thought that the foreskin is unhygienic, and that the least one should do is to retract it and clean underneath it, so perhaps it is better to stick with the "wipe as a finger" idea to not sound completely crazy and lose prospective non-circumcisers that way...?







)

I'm sorry, but I think the "idealistic" argument that no one but the owner of the penis has the "right" to decide, is a bit construed. Why isn't it a good enough reason that circumcision is a painful, horrible, unnecessary procedure done against a small defenceless child? It is no better than torture. Plus it can potentially kill the baby, or do lasting damage. What other reasons do you need?

I am wondering whether a person who can think it is ok to strap a baby down and cut their most sensitive part without sufficient anastheisa, has actually ever experienced any real pain that they can remember. If they do understand what it is like to feel horrible pain that you can't escape from, and they still want to do it, I have no words that can describe how cruel I think this is.

It is illegal in my culture to slap, pinch, pull hair, or do anything else that causes unnecessary pain to your child. And to think that the US, which believes itself to be among the most civilised and advanced countries in the world, performs this kind of torture on newborn babies! Look at which other countries have a high circumcision rate. They are not the kind of developed countries that the US thinks it is similar to. But, actually, many of those other countries have the excuse that they have a population that is less educated, poor, misinformed, etc. The US has no excuse, you have access to all the information in the world.

You moms have the responsibility for protecting your babies. It doesn't do to leave the decision to anybody else, including your husbands. Since you are the one who knows that circumcision is painful, pointless, and wrong, it is your responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen to your baby. In the case of circumcision there is actually one side that is right and one that is wrong. It is not possible to compromise.

Just say no.

Sorry if I'm being harsh, but this is how crazy routine circumcision is from a European point of view.


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## TyrantOfTheWeek (May 25, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rabbitmum*
> 
> Sorry if I'm being harsh, but this is how crazy routine circumcision is from a European point of view.


That is how crazy RIC is to this Midwestern United States born mama point of view too. And the "I was young and dumb" thing I hear a lot doesn't really fly with me either. I was 19 when my first son was born and there was no way in h*ll I would consent to ANYTHING without researching it first. I got through maybe 45 seconds of a video of one and that pretty much made up my mind.


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## kawa kamuri (Apr 19, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TyrantOfTheWeek*
> 
> That is how crazy RIC is to this Midwestern United States born mama point of view too. And the "I was young and dumb" thing I hear a lot doesn't really fly with me either. I was 19 when my first son was born and there was no way in h*ll I would consent to ANYTHING without researching it first. I got through maybe 45 seconds of a video of one and that pretty much made up my mind.


I was nineteen when my first was born as well but it was ten years before your first. We didn't have videos or information like there was in 2004. I, personally, didn't even have access to the resources that I do today in 2004. Many parents have done research and have not necessarily made the best choice. They trust their highly educated doctors, are perhaps too poor to afford internet and computers or any number of scenarios. I think your judgement is short-sighted.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Daisy and Kawa, I do agree that individuals can been misinformed or not informed, even in the US. As such they may have made their choice on a faulty foundation. I didn't mean to blame individuals who do not know better. I was more referring to it on a culture level. US as a culture has all the information in the world, still this custom continues. It is a paradox.


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## TyrantOfTheWeek (May 25, 2009)

And I didn't mean to offend. I have just never been one to follow the *rules* or trust anyone. Bad in a lot of ways, but good in this instance.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

I didn't offer my husband a choice or make it a group decision. I said "No way is this happening to my kid. He can decide for himself when he gets bigger." (This was way in advance of actually getting pregnant.) My husband didn't have strong feelings pro-circumcision so that was the end of it. We did discuss why I felt the way I did. If he had been very pro-circ I imagine it would have been a fight but I would have held at "No way is this happening to my kid".


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## malayasmommy (Oct 25, 2009)

I don't think "defend" is the right word, as I don't feel "attacked" at all, but rather discuss my views on letting my husband have a say in what is happening w/ the circumcision. A lot of that is I guess, based on trust that my husband will come to the right (read: "MY" decision ha ha) once he is informed. I agree that it's probably best to not say "do your research but in the end YOU decide" and I appreciate the feedback I've gotten in regards to that. I am now planning to phrase it differently (i.e. "do some research and let's come back and talk" instead). My husband and I are very much CO-parents--I work in the evenings, he works during the day so essentially since my daughter has been 7 weeks old he has shared hugely in parenting responsibilities that have historically been more of a "mother's" responsibilities. And I LOVE this, I think it sets a wonderful example for our daughter and the son that we will have. Just like in almost all of our other decisions, this one is about co-parenting as well. I rarely, if EVER, say "over my dead body" to my husband when he disagrees with my opinion. I feel that if I expect him to hear ME, then I need to listen to what HE says. That doesn't mean that I agree with him, but it means that I need to be open to what he is saying. I feel that if I just say "NO, over my dead body, end of discussion" it also closes us off to discussing WHY it is such a sensitive issue with him and it might open us up to talking about "I love you just the way you are, circumcised or intact it wouldn't matter" and could actually HELP our relationship. This is a dynamic of OUR relationship, maybe not others, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as "don't do it or we get a divorce". If he does the info and still says "I still want to do this" then more needs to happen in terms of our discussion, and like I said I am positive that I will not just lay down and say "Well, OK". Anyway, lots of things have been said in this discussion which is WONDERFUL! I appreciate all the feedback! Nonetheless, I felt it important to discuss why I chose to view this from the angle I am.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

I very rarely pull out the "Over my dead body" line. I save it for circumstances where I believe very firmly that this HAS to happen (or not happen) THIS way and it HAS to happen at this certain time and there are NO suitable compromises... and I think that this qualifies where few other situations do.

But I'm certainly for trying other approaches first.

IIRC, I asked him how he felt and he didn't seem to have strong feelings and that's when I said "Well, I absolutely don't want to circumcise" and he shrugged and said okay. So not quite the same situation.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Yeah, I wouldn't pull the "over my dead body" line until I felt like I had to. I'm all for letting some one come around on their own time - but if they never come around? Well, then "over my dead body" as its place. Luckily for me, dh didn't care at all in the beginning, and then became at least as pro-intact as I am.


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## buckeyedoc (Nov 9, 2006)

Part of the problem in the USA is that medical doctors publicly promote circumcision. Just in the past couple of weeks, people on this forum have pointed out Dr. Oz's pro-circumcision national TV show and a pro-circumcision mass e-mail from WebMD to expectant parents. For me, circumcision never sat quite right, because I can't believe all newborn males need genital surgery in order to be healthy, but some other parents hear about all of the "health benefits" of circumcision from MDs and figure that must be the objective truth, so they don't think they need to do any more digging for information. Anyone anti-circumcision must be a wingnut. On top of their fear of having a kid that is somehow "different", the doctor's advice is taken as gospel. It's very frustrating, because we all know that most doctors do have a dog in this fight and an interest in believing that circumcision is not harmful (they are personally circumcised, perform circumcisions, and/or have circumcised sons).


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## Lit Chick (Aug 15, 2007)

With DS1, I assumed he would be circed b/c his father is, and I thought that was something the man should decide. But while prepping for the birth and doing all my homework about my options, I thought, what the heck? I'm not even thinking about that? So, I did my homework and went totally anti-circ.

My husband found the Penn and Teller Bull$hit video upsetting, and thus it was helpful to me. I also bombarded him with articles and such, most of which he refused to read. As a circed man, he was sensitive to anything that said or implied he had been harmed, or that his penis was now damaged.

I found that Circumcision: A History Of The World's Most Controversial Surgery was the most helpful book, because it was not emotional. I copied passages, or read bits aloud to him, and basically just wore him down.

For quite a while, he would make remarks that let me know he would have preferred DS1 to be circed, but it was not worth fighting me. I was a little irritated, as I hoped that he would be anti-circ rather than indifferent, but my boys are intact and that's the important thing. BUT - two of my friends have boys. One has 2, the other 3. All of them are circed. And each of them has a son with a botched circ. One boy needed an extended hospital stay and a tranfusion because he lost so much blood. I had to change that poor little guy's diaper a few weeks after he was home, and it looked like they took way too much off (I've seen dozens of circed newborns). My other friend's boy had an uneven job that caused lots of pain - and then her ped told her to retract the remaining skin with every diaper change - the poor child was in agony (and my friend was horrified when I told her what she was doing). He ended up having a second circ to correct the mess, but he's also not "normal" anymore. After my DH saw the one little boy and heard about the other, he stopped making stupid remarks. He might still not be anti-circ, but I think he's glad our boys never had to go through that.


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## mrsberman (May 7, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eclipse*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if I actually could go through with it. I could never manipulate him into getting what I want, but I can stick to my argument that if the baby is a boy he can always get it done when he's older, but it can never be put back on. I did bring up FGM when we first discussed circumcision and he was appalled and said that is wrong. I said what if it were DD and that was the "norm?" He hated that too and said it was different. After explaining that to me it's not different and that circumcision takes away nerve endings and feeling I could see he was thinking about it. We're at 20 weeks now so there's still a lot of discussion to be had.


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## TyrantOfTheWeek (May 25, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erigeron*
> 
> *I very rarely pull out the "Over my dead body" line. I save it for circumstances where I believe very firmly that this HAS to happen (or not happen) THIS way and it HAS to happen at this certain time and there are NO suitable compromises... and I think that this qualifies where few other situations do.*
> 
> ...


Yep. This has no compromises. You can't half circ.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

before i ever got married i gave DH all the info on why i never want to circ our sons (future) he still feels like they will be made fun of and wont look like him...now 68% of Americans didn't even circ last year and i think hes becoming more confident that it will be "ok". I explained to him that cutting ANYTHING off of any of my children period is grounds for not getting married or getting a divorce. i would never do anything to a daughter down there and i will never to a son. its that simple. IMO circ is not only wrong but a disgusting and horrific act to force on anyone let alone a newborn baby.

you have to research. "look at this hunny, i found info on how to properly clean a a penis that hasnt been circ'ed" "oh and look most men have problems from being forcibly retracted as babies, that explains a lot of issues that men may have if they werent circ'ed, possibly even my brother, so as long as we properly care for our intact son and make sure ANYONE who changes him, even his Dr knows NEVER to RETRACT his penis he will be fine."

i saw a onsie the other day that i loved it read "If boys were meant to have foreskins they'd be born with them"

so basically bombard him with info about how its sooooo much better for the baby not to be circ'ed. all of the benefits he will reap in life. i mean really whats more important for him to look like DH or for him to be happy, whole, and have all his nerve endings?

i know my DH has a huge scar on his penis from his circ and he can't have a really big O no matter what...i dont think thats fair. im pissed for him even if he thinks its fine. \

also my nephew was circ'ed and they messed it up he has like half of a crooked foreskin now...

AND if you plan on Breastfeeding circ can interfere with that big time.

http://www.drmomma.org/ lots of info on staying intact and a mothers apology to her son for circ'ing him


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

If you birth at home it will be easier to not circ. What happened to your brother was the norm in a time when circ rates were very high. Are there any other cases of amputation to treat an infection? Unless your flesh is rotting off doctors generally try to save all parts. It has not been till recent times that there was even an acknowledgement that circumcision damaged the male(and female for that matter) genitals.You lose a lot more than a little flap of skin.

When you consider the reasons-really consider them-you realize how silly they are.My dh wanted to do it for similar reasons-he was,it was a religious/cultural/social thing. Sorry no go for me and I don't need a penis to say that no one is cutting my boy or girl anywhere on their body.My ds is 8 now and never had an issue with his gentials.He can always cut himself later,but hopefully he will not do it until he gets to experience sex with his normal penis.

Best wishes for your little one whatever you decide to do!


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## NewSolarMomma (Sep 12, 2010)

I agree with the OP about husbands feeling like they're penises are inadequate because you don't want to circ your son. Many men are very sensitive over their penises- understatement of the year- so it might help to remind him that his is "perfect" for you, but that the next generation of women will be used to intact men instead. If he feels like his is GREAT, it will make your success convincing him more likely. For this reason, don't mention mutilation or other negative terms.


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## Pirogi (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 

As a European I have been shocked again and again by this practice. Needless to say neither of my two sons (22 yo and 4 yo) is circumcised, and obviously neither has had any problems or worries with their foreskins. The same goes for everybody I know. I don't know a single person who would even vaguely consider doing this to their child, and I have never heard anybody mentioning any foreskin problems, UTIs in boys (they are really rare, you know!), or any hygiene worries. It is a non-issue. *We don't even "wipe like a finger". The only cleaning that happens with my 4 yo's penis, is that he sits in the bath with it every two or three days. This was also true when he used diapers, except when he got poo everywhere.* (But I am assuming that the idea of not even washing the penis might sound extreme to people who are used to the thought that the foreskin is unhygienic, and that the least one should do is to retract it and clean underneath it, so perhaps it is better to stick with the "wipe as a finger" idea to not sound completely crazy and lose prospective non-circumcisers that way...?







)

This was/is how we dealt with DD's cleanliness too. I figure it's a lot harder to keep a little girl's parts clean than an intact little boy's parts. I never even wiped inside her labia with a wet wipe. If she had poo in her folds, she went into the bath for a few minutes to just flush it out. But I agree with you re: not "losing" folks who would prefer more invasive genital cleaning.


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## vachi73 (Mar 26, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dayiscoming2006*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


This will probably get deleted, but I wanted to suggest gently that you also consider what the NEW TESTAMENT teaches about the NEW COVENANT. Paul's letters are very, very clear that circumcision is NOT part of the new covenant. Circ was an OLD TESTAMENT requirement only.

This will probably get deleted, too, but many many many of the OT "requirements" for the Jews are NOT followed anymore, either -- starting with animal sacrifices.


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## malayasmommy (Oct 25, 2009)

Just an update for all you--and again thank you for your wise input! I ended up gently bringing up the subject w/ hubby, just saying it had been on my mind for a while and I wanted to discuss with him my thoughts about circumcision. Told that I was very uncomfortable with doing that to our child, and told him I had some articles I had accumulated that explained my concerns. I asked him if he would read through them and get back to me with his thoughts. He was genuinely surprised, he said "You know I haven't even thought about it since we found out we're having a boy". He explained again the reasons why he was uncomfortable with it, which I acknowledged. I especially acknowledged the part that I loved him for who he was, intact or circumcised, and if our child found someone who truly loved him it would be the same situation. He agreed to read through the info. In the meantime, a friend of ours DID circumcise their child and the husband who was there for the procedure told me about what he saw. I started to relay the info to hubby and he said "You know, I'm really leaning towards NOT circumcising. My only concern now is if he were to ever need to have it done later in life and what an awful memory that would create." I reminded him that the trauma he could expect to experience himself is the same thing that would happen to our little boy if we did it to him, and is it really better just because he won't "remember" it? He agreed that it would not. I also assured him that a lot is known about how to keep an intact penis healthy. It was HIM that brought up the fact that our daughter has had multiple ear infections since a child, so do we automatically put tubes in his ears too? Of course not, we wait to see and in the meantime do the best we can to keep her ears healthy. While he hasn't firmly committed to anything, I feel pretty confident he will be agreeable to keeping him intact.  Sorry to drag the story out, I just wanted to update as well as provide info to anyone else who is dealing with the same questions.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I showed DH the 50 reasons thread on here and it was like a lightbulb went off he is so anti-circ now it's great!!! I even played it up by giving him extra affection and saying how sorry I was that he had to go through all that pain.


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## nerdymom (Mar 20, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *malayasmommy*
> 
> Just an update for all you--and again thank you for your wise input! I ended up gently bringing up the subject w/ hubby, just saying it had been on my mind for a while and I wanted to discuss with him my thoughts about circumcision. Told that I was very uncomfortable with doing that to our child, and told him I had some articles I had accumulated that explained my concerns. I asked him if he would read through them and get back to me with his thoughts. He was genuinely surprised, he said "You know I haven't even thought about it since we found out we're having a boy". He explained again the reasons why he was uncomfortable with it, which I acknowledged. I especially acknowledged the part that I loved him for who he was, intact or circumcised, and if our child found someone who truly loved him it would be the same situation. He agreed to read through the info. In the meantime, a friend of ours DID circumcise their child and the husband who was there for the procedure told me about what he saw. I started to relay the info to hubby and he said "You know, I'm really leaning towards NOT circumcising. My only concern now is if he were to ever need to have it done later in life and what an awful memory that would create." I reminded him that the trauma he could expect to experience himself is the same thing that would happen to our little boy if we did it to him, and is it really better just because he won't "remember" it? He agreed that it would not. I also assured him that a lot is known about how to keep an intact penis healthy. It was HIM that brought up the fact that our daughter has had multiple ear infections since a child, so do we automatically put tubes in his ears too? Of course not, we wait to see and in the meantime do the best we can to keep her ears healthy. While he hasn't firmly committed to anything, I feel pretty confident he will be agreeable to keeping him intact.  Sorry to drag the story out, I just wanted to update as well as provide info to anyone else who is dealing with the same questions.


That is awesome! Thank you for the update. Don't forget, if your son chooses to have himself circ'd, he can be put under for the surgery and take pain meds afterwards. I think that is a lot less traumatizing than it would be for an infant.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Great news!









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *malayasmommy*
> 
> Just an update for all you--and again thank you for your wise input! I ended up gently bringing up the subject w/ hubby, just saying it had been on my mind for a while and I wanted to discuss with him my thoughts about circumcision. Told that I was very uncomfortable with doing that to our child, and told him I had some articles I had accumulated that explained my concerns. I asked him if he would read through them and get back to me with his thoughts. He was genuinely surprised, he said "You know I haven't even thought about it since we found out we're having a boy". He explained again the reasons why he was uncomfortable with it, which I acknowledged. I especially acknowledged the part that I loved him for who he was, intact or circumcised, and if our child found someone who truly loved him it would be the same situation. He agreed to read through the info. In the meantime, a friend of ours DID circumcise their child and the husband who was there for the procedure told me about what he saw. I started to relay the info to hubby and he said "You know, I'm really leaning towards NOT circumcising. My only concern now is if he were to ever need to have it done later in life and what an awful memory that would create." I reminded him that the trauma he could expect to experience himself is the same thing that would happen to our little boy if we did it to him, and is it really better just because he won't "remember" it? He agreed that it would not. I also assured him that a lot is known about how to keep an intact penis healthy. It was HIM that brought up the fact that our daughter has had multiple ear infections since a child, so do we automatically put tubes in his ears too? Of course not, we wait to see and in the meantime do the best we can to keep her ears healthy. While he hasn't firmly committed to anything, I feel pretty confident he will be agreeable to keeping him intact.  Sorry to drag the story out, I just wanted to update as well as provide info to anyone else who is dealing with the same questions.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Please keep in mind we do not allow discusion of or reference to religion in TCAC.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

Great update!


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## mrsberman (May 7, 2010)

Great update! I wish DH was open minded like yours. I brought up the no-circ situation again yesterday and DH said he might agree if I agree to let DD get the chicken pox vax?! I told him bartering one child's health with another's is not an option! He did agree to look up information about circumcision and what happens and we can talk about it more. I honestly don't think he will want one for our baby (if it's a boy) once he knows the procedure.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mrsberman*
> 
> Great update! I wish DH was open minded like yours. I brought up the no-circ situation again yesterday and DH said he might agree if I agree to let DD get the chicken pox vax?! I told him bartering one child's health with another's is not an option! He did agree to look up information about circumcision and what happens and we can talk about it more. I honestly don't think he will want one for our baby (if it's a boy) once he knows the procedure.


Good response. Besides, why is he stuck on the chicken pox vax? IMO, that is the most pointless vax of all. Didn't we all have it and survive?


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## Marissamom (Dec 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Galatea*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Polio is more pointless if you're in the US and most of the developed world. the US hasn't had any domestic cases of Polio in the last decade.


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## mrsberman (May 7, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Galatea*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


He's not really stuck on the vax. It's the only one DD hasn't gotten and it's keeping her out of daycare. I think he doesn't see any reason for her to not get it. It doesn't help that her pedi try telling us she can die from CP! I thought he agreed with me on no CP vax until I brought up no circ if this baby is a boy. LOL, that was a schocker to me. He keeps saying let's hope it comes out a girl. If this baby is a boy, right now my only defense is using the delay until he's good a breast feeding argument. He still hasn't looked up anything about circ/no circ like he promised. One day he's going to come home to find a picture of a botched circ tapped to the front door if he doesn't do what he promised.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Pl.ease leave the discusion of vax to the the vaccination forum. Thanks!


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## billikengirl (Sep 12, 2008)

http://www.adriancolesberry.com/life/?p=554

Framing Circumcision for the (Happily) Circumcised

http://womanuncensored.blogspot.com/2009/12/would-you-circumcise-your-daughter.html

Would Your Circumcise Your Daughter?


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## billikengirl (Sep 12, 2008)

There was a great post on this forum once that said "My son's body is not a marital bargaining chip" -- for those husbands who would argue to "trade" a circumcision for some other parenting choice.


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## sunnygir1 (Oct 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mrsberman*
> 
> Great update! I wish DH was open minded like yours. I brought up the no-circ situation again yesterday and DH said he might agree if I agree to let DD get the chicken pox vax?! I told him bartering one child's health with another's is not an option! He did agree to look up information about circumcision and what happens and we can talk about it more. I honestly don't think he will want one for our baby (if it's a boy) once he knows the procedure.


I just want to encourage you to continue to compassionately express your concerns and your convictions with your dh.

When we were pregnant with our first child, I talked with dh about circumcision, and he was for it, for some of the reasons mentioned above. He said he was concerned that not circing would be setting our child up to be harassed at school -- an argument I find unconvincing even if it were based in reality. I did some research, talked to dh more, spoke to my intact brother who is 28. He said that he doesn't have problems with hygiene or infections, and that he thought there might have been another boy in school who was intact (couldn't seem to remember for sure) and said that he was not teased at school or in sports. I shared that with my dh, who still seemed unconvinced. Fortunately our first turned out to be a girl, so we didn't have to discuss it again.

When we got pregnant with our second child, I brought it up to dh again. He said that he didn't want to circumcise our baby if it was a boy. Yay! He had been thinking about it over time and had come around on his own. He does, sometimes, do research of his own as well. As a pp said, in the information at the hospital after ds' birth was a pamphlet about circumcision. It was not anti-circ, but it did basically say that there was no medical reason to do it and that increasing numbers of parents were choosing to forgo the procedure. Maybe something like that, from a main stream medical establishment would help? You could ask your doctor for information.


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## mrsberman (May 7, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sunnygir1*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Thanks. I tried explaining the bolded to DH. Besides all my other reasons for not wanting a circ the fact that Drs say there is no medical reason to do it is a big one. I have heard that some insurance companies don't even cover it because of this. I was talking with my SIL about this and she said that DH's brother didn't even know if he was circ'd or not. LOL, I wish DH had no clue, then it would make my life a little easier. Right now my mind is freaking out because I'm not sure if we will agree on this or not. He's already saying his opinion doesn't matter because I always get my way, but this is not how I want things to go.


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


> Right now my mind is freaking out because I'm not sure if we will agree on this or not. He's already saying his opinion doesn't matter because I always get my way, but this is not how I want things to go.


He might huff and puff. You might have to accept that he isn't going to be happy about this... at least at first. Dh and I have a very loving relationship and we value one another's opinions. However, I just had to be loving and firm. Nothing I said, no fact, nothing at all would convince him. In the end, we were both shocked at how quickly his argument went from big deal status to "eh." He's no intactivist, but he's glad we didn't go through with it. I think going from anti-intact to intact-is-normal is a pretty acceptable change of heart!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

In the end all that matter is your ds's right to choose for himself. My dh gave me a hard time to but I just told him it wasnt happening and he had to figure out a way to live with it. This after we had hashed it over many times and finally I just had to be the mama bear and protect my ds.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

have you showed him this? http://www.mgmbill.org/ They are trying to illegalize circ. That was enough for DH. Also when I told him that girls could have things taken off down there until they illegalized it in the 80s. I mean really that was not long ago...

It was icing on the cake for him to feel strong in our decision. His family thinks we are nuts but he explained all the info to them and is becoming some what of an intactivist lol.


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