# Love & Logic Parenting?? good or bad



## weezix (Feb 5, 2009)

I recently took a Love & Logic Parenting course. While I agreed that most ideas they had would work for me and seemed like something I would like to try, there seemed to be a harsh aspect to it.

Has anyone heard of this course and what did you take from it, or change?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I bought the love and logic for teens, and I LOVE it. I love how we can teach our teens to make responsible choices and take responsibility for the stupid choices they do make.

I've always believed in personal responsibility, and this book helped me find ways to do that.

But, I never read any of the other love and logic books, and I've never seen the videos or been to a seminar. So, I can't say if it's really good for everyone or not.

Personally, I think it's a good series to read. Take the parts you like and ignore the rest. No one book or author is going to have everything you need for your family. It's best to read several and use only what's good for you.

Even the WORST books can give you something that might work for you, even if you hate 99% of it.


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## firewoman (Feb 2, 2008)

I have the book and I'm wondering which parts of the class you found harsh. Without knowing what they taught you it is hard for me to tell you whether or not I think it is too harsh.


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## weezix (Feb 5, 2009)

I have toddlers so I think I need to read the toddler book. I should check it out of the library. I saw some of the videos in the course I was in...and I guess that's what felt harsh or maybe it was just that it was hard to relate because my children were so young.

The hardest part of it I find so far is thinking up consequences. My kids are ages 2-5.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Didn't take the course, read the book. I totally agree with you. My impressions:

1. Primarily for school-age kids. I believe the authors are school staff, and I don't think the ideas for dealing with toddlers would have worked for me.

2. I like the underlying principle that kids should be responsible and many of the natural consequences make sense.

3. I like the idea that kids learn to make decisions by practicing making decisions, but the way it was presented in the book seemed like they were giving choices that weren't really a choice.

I've been reading lots of books this year since DD (3) has been going through a lot. I read two others in the vein of Love & Logic - Barbara Coloroso's Kids Are Worth It and Alyson Shafer's Honey I Wrecked the Kids. Both seem like they are similar in principle to L&L but gentler in practice. In particular HIWTK really looked at matching the discipline to the motivation of the behavior and fulfilling underlying needs. After I read HIWTK I was able to create a much more peaceful environment in my home and implement some structure/routines that got me to the point where I could actually think about how I wanted to parent, rather than keeping the baby out of biting range.

Right now I am finding that using any philosophy that is focussed on consequences is not working - or maybe they have taken me as far as I can go with them at this point. I recently read Kids, Parents & Power Struggles and some of the techniques to talk DD through her emotions are helping.

And on an unrelated note - hello Alberta sister!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *weezix* 
I have toddlers so I think I need to read the toddler book. I should check it out of the library. I saw some of the videos in the course I was in...and I guess that's what felt harsh or maybe it was just that it was hard to relate because my children were so young.

The hardest part of it I find so far is thinking up consequences. My kids are ages 2-5.

The book I read didn't really have the consequeses you have to think up. (but again, it was for teens)

There were things like...

Say you are having a dinner party, and at 10:00 pm you get a call from the police saying your son has been picked up for drinking and driving. They are going to hold him until you pick him up. You tell the officer, you are having a party, and you will be there at about 12:00.... and to please tell your son that you'll see him at midnight-ish.

It sounds harsh. But, it's laying the responsibility on your son.

Then, when you pick him up... you don't yell or lecture. You can say how disappointed you are, and how you are very angry... but, don't carry on, because he will just tune you out. Instead say "you have a court date on August 2nd... how are you going to handle that?". Expect him to figure out a plan to fix this. You will help him.... but, you won't fix it. You support him, but you won't make a few calls to make this go away.

My parents did this to me. It made my young adult life so much easier knowing I had to know how to fix my own mistakes. It also empowerd me knowing I was totally capable of fixing it.


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## SpottedFoxx (Feb 8, 2010)

I just finished the book. There were several things I felt that were a bit over the top. Sending a kid to bed without dinner (never use food as a punishment or as a reward) and also giving away the family pet if a child doesn't give proper care is just wrong.

That being said, there was a lot I liked about the book (all stated above).

I will say I was hesitant as one of the authors (Cline) has a very controversial past - just google his name.

Like any other parenting book (and Lord knows I've read a ton of them), you take from it what you feel will work within your comfort level (or just above) and leave the rest behind.

I did just order Love and Logic for the special needs child.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I think it's a fine technique for older kids, with whom you've got a loving, attached relationship, because it very much focuses on putting the responsibility for their behavior on them.

However, I found it very harsh for toddlers/young children. As my dh said "Too much logic and not enough love." I didn't like the fact that the 'go to' solution was a time out. We do use timeouts sometimes in our family, but it's always for anti-social behavior, or a need to cool off. It's not for doing something like dumping your cereal on the floor.

I attended a class, and saw the videos of the authors and found them to be not very respectful of kids at times. They came across as mocking.


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## weezix (Feb 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
I As my dh said "Too much logic and not enough love." I didn't like the fact that the 'go to' solution was a time out. We do use timeouts sometimes in our family, but it's always for anti-social behavior, or a need to cool off. It's not for doing something like dumping your cereal on the floor.

I attended a class, and saw the videos of the authors and found them to be not very respectful of kids at times. They came across as mocking.

I think you said it perfectly. Too much logic, not enough love. That kind of sums up how I feel about it. I love the idea of it...but there didn't seem to be enough love involved.

What do you use instead of time out's?


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *weezix* 
I think you said it perfectly. Too much logic, not enough love. That kind of sums up how I feel about it. I love the idea of it...but there didn't seem to be enough love involved.

What do you use instead of time out's?

Depends on the age. We use(d) a lot of redirection and describing what we want. We also have have the kids make 'amends' for things they have done. So if they spill water, they help wipe it up. If they break something, they help fix it if it's fixable. Misuse of objects or perpetual bickering over them usually means they get put away for a while.

We're also fairly proactive in terms of anticipating issues or preventing them (fed, watered, filled up with attention when possible).

When they were toddlers, we babyproofed pretty well so that we didn't have to always be saying no. As they've gotten older, we ask a lot of questions about possible consequences of their actions to help them see ahead. For example, ds was tossing a baseball up in the front hall. There's a light fixture there than hangs down. I said to him "T, look up. What do you see?" "Umm.. the light?" "Right, what's going to happen if your ball hits the light fixture?" "It'll break." "Right, so what are you going to do?" "Go somewhere else." "Good - go outside, there's not so much to break out there." You'd think a 9 year old could actually have this thought process without being walked through it, but apparently not.


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## mokey4 (Nov 3, 2008)

I have a love & logic book that I picked up at a consignment sale. I flipped through the pages and happened to read the chapter that starts, "your one-year-old should understand Basic German Shepherd," and went on to compare babies to dogs.

I put the book down and haven't read it since. Not for me. But might not be so bad.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mokey4* 
I have a love & logic book that I picked up at a consignment sale. I flipped through the pages and happened to read the chapter that starts, "your one-year-old should understand Basic German Shepherd," and went on to compare babies to dogs.

I put the book down and haven't read it since. Not for me. But might not be so bad.

I'm sure it was meant as sarcasm. I relate to sarcasm, so that would have made me laugh out loud and I'd have wanted to keep reading.


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## RoViMama (Nov 10, 2009)

I love L & L. The choices and enforceable statements work great for my kids. The time out "Uh oh" song is really for out of control behavior or failure to listen and being too distractible for the rest of the family. I love the empathic statement, ours is "Oh,man". Now all I have to do is say that and Roey looks around to see what needs to be fixed or changed. I love the logic part of it. But if you read their stuff and watch/listen, they talk about empathy first then the consequence. But the consequence is related to the situation!


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## weezix (Feb 5, 2009)

Thanks for your responses ...I'm still relatively new to the board even though I've been a member for a while, but I can't figure out how to get updates on the thread. I subscribed to it but when I click on them it goes to MY last post.

So here is a question: Specifically I have one dd who is 3 and she is Little Miss Destructive and into EVERYTHING and by everything I mean she dumps 2 litres of shampoo on the floor and while i'm cleaning up she's dumping hand sanitizer on the floor on the other end of the room. Every lotion or liquid....she is drawn to like a magnet. I get her to help clean up stuff....but it doesn't seem to be teaching her. She's gotten into some dangerous things as well and already been hospitalized and STILL doesn't seem to have learned a thing. I'm thinking that there needs to be a concequence to this action because it can potentially be SO dangerous.

I realize that keeping things out of reach etc is the answer...but my house is chaos. I'm working my butt off to get it organized in here but we are still a ways away from that as I have no help and no money to pay anyone to help.

From a Love & Logic point of view...how do I deal with her?? Everything else seems simple, I just have to be consistent...but with her I have no idea where to start.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *weezix* 
I realize that keeping things out of reach etc is the answer...but my house is chaos. I'm working my butt off to get it organized in here but we are still a ways away from that as I have no help and no money to pay anyone to help.

From a Love & Logic point of view...how do I deal with her?? Everything else seems simple, I just have to be consistent...but with her I have no idea where to start.

I think the first place to start is to find a way to undo the chaos and get organization. It takes weeks when you have kids, but if you work at one job at a time. (maybe start with the bathroom) and move on from there.

I would say "Three is too old to act like that" Except that I have a three year old daycare girl who is much worse than your dd. She's opened the car door on the freeway, has run across a seven lane busy road, gotten locked overnight in her garage because nobody knew she was outside. She's eaten prescription medicines, climbed on top of the fridge then fell asleep, drank several ounces of Crown Royal..... it's an ongoing thing with her. They can't seem to stay one step ahead of her. She keeps me very busy here too, but not like she is at home. The difference is, her house is chaos. They can't fix the regular chaos, because the three year old is always creating new chaos. It's sort of a vicious cycle.

Do you have grandparents or siblings that will spend a day helping you get organized? It's so hard to know where to start.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

At that age honestly I'm not sure you can discipline her out of a fascination with something - they're all little scientists. If hospitalization didn't do it I'm not sure a time out or similar can.

I really second trying to marshall your resources to help her have an environment that will help her succeed, especially since it is so important.

But I'd also try to find some time and energy to give her "good" experimentation time with stuff like that - can you set her up at a sink with some inexpensive bubble bath, or let her bake with you, or even give her something sticky-lotiony (corn syrup comes to mine, in a small pitcher) to play with in the bathtub (and then just run a bath straightaway)? Or if it's the LIDS she's fascinated with maybe get her some empty containers and let her play dumping them in the bath/outside/etc.?


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## weezix (Feb 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I think the first place to start is to find a way to undo the chaos and get organization. It takes weeks when you have kids, but if you work at one job at a time. (maybe start with the bathroom) and move on from there.
...Do you have grandparents or siblings that will spend a day helping you get organized? It's so hard to know where to start.

I'm really doing an overhaul on my house right now. We are trying to list it for sale so that is helping me push harder to get stuff done, but she also makes it hard because I work all day and with everything she's gotten into, it looks like I've done nothing.

I don't have family close by. We've asked for so much help over the past couple years (especially when the kids were babies [3 kids in 2 years]) that I feel like I've kind of run out of help.

I know we will get there...but in the mean time, I have no idea what to do and its so discouraging.


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## weezix (Feb 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
At that age honestly I'm not sure you can discipline her out of a fascination with something - they're all little scientists. If hospitalization didn't do it I'm not sure a time out or similar can.

I really second trying to marshall your resources to help her have an environment that will help her succeed, especially since it is so important.

But I'd also try to find some time and energy to give her "good" experimentation time with stuff like that - can you set her up at a sink with some inexpensive bubble bath, or let her bake with you, or even give her something sticky-lotiony (corn syrup comes to mine, in a small pitcher) to play with in the bathtub (and then just run a bath straightaway)? Or if it's the LIDS she's fascinated with maybe get her some empty containers and let her play dumping them in the bath/outside/etc.?

I like the ideas of giving her experimentation time. I guess I just need to find a way to do that where it's somewhere easy to clean up. It's such a mess in here that things like that overwhelm me. I've given them shaving creme in the bathtub and I've gotten her to help me bake - only a few times because I'm not a baker and my kitchen was so cluttered. Perhaps putting her at the kitchen sink with some bubbles would be good. She seems to gravitate to the water table at playgroup (which is cancelled through the summer).


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

I agree with everyone who said modify her environment...out of reach is out of mind! A shower shelf that hangs from the showerhead would be a quick and cheap fix for the shampoo.

When consequences don't stop my DD, or she puts on a big performance of refusing to comply with cleanup, I know she is just looking for attention/power struggles. I try to address this by not paying off bad behavior with attention. I give out the consequence in as low-key a manner as possible - i.e. she spills milk, I hand her a towel without talking to her. If she refuses I don't bother with warnings or lectures, I just ask her to get it cleaned up before X (snack, lunch, park, books.) Usually works. On the occasion that it *still* doesn't work I have done it myself and then asked her to make up the time to me, either by reading fewer stories or shortening our playtime together. She also has the option of helping with some of my chores to make up the time to me, but she's never picked that









Getting the house ready to sell sounds like a huge project and I would not try to handle it within your regular routine...I know that just maintenance cleaning and everyday cooking is about all I want to handle while home alone with the LOs, and I only have two and one's a baby. DH and I usually do the cleaning 'projects' as a family and DD is much less disruptive when we work together. If babysitters are absolutely not an option, what about playdates? When DD has a friend over they will usually stay in her room (which can only take so much time to clean) and I get tons done since I don't have to entertain them.


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## SpottedFoxx (Feb 8, 2010)

I think the one big mistake parents make with these "techniques" is that they make it their everything. Not every situation calls for a L&L or 123 Magic technique.

It's just part of your equation. Find what works in the situation of the shampoo and that's what you go with. You may have to try L&L or 123 Magic or something else entirely.

I can tell you, in situations where my son is know to behave in a way I don't appreciate and is inappropriate, I have found that explaining my expectations to him in advance, with a reward for compliance, is key.

"Dylan, we are going out to dinner tonight. It's a really nice restaurant which means you need to use your inside voice, stay seated and play nicely at the table with your cousin. If you are a good boy, Mommy and Daddy will read you an extra book at bedtime. What do you think?"

We had a lovely dinner last night (my niece had a meltdown but that wasn't my issue) and my son got to pick an extra book at bedtime. He was overtired from school and that normally would mean some pretty foul behavior. By telling him what we expected, he knew in advance, got his ducks in a row and was able to hold it together.


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## puffingirl (Nov 2, 2006)

I think the general ideas work fine for a toddler. DD is almost 3 and totally gets the cause and effect factor. We go to the store and she wants to walk, instead of ride in the cart. I tell her she may, as long as she stays with me and keeps her hands to herself (and I try to keep her busy with tasks like helping me pick 2 lemons, put them in the bag and then in the cart, etc). It only took probably 2 times of popping her in the cart when she wasn't able to hold up her end of the deal (plus she got empathy and a reminder that she'd get another chance the next time), for her to get the idea that if she wants to walk in the store, then she needs to do her bit. She's usually very well behaved at restaurants but was having a tough time one day (I think she was overtired) and began to get loud and rough at the table. I picked her up, took her out to the empty lobby and sat with her there while DH was finishing his meal. She was upset, as she hadn't finished something she really liked, but I let her know that her behaviors were not ok for a restaurant and that I would hang out with her here until daddy was done, if she needed time to be antsy and loud and we could bring her food home. If she wanted to go back and finish her meal, she would need to act appropriately. Either choice was fine and it was her choice. She wanted to go back to the table and was very well behaved for the rest of the meal. I think that if you keep the love part first, the logic part is very useful.


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