# S/O When does the attachment stop?



## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

As a spinoff to one of the current threads, it seems we've gotten sidetracked a bit







.

When do we stop giving our support to our children? Should our adult children be able to count on us for anything? Why would we turn them down in a crisis? How would denying them support hurt/help the relationship?

Disclaimer: We're not talking about things like our 25 year old asking us to leave work to pick up their dry cleaning nor things like enabling or codependency issues.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

I don't think of it as parenting- I think of it as part of family life, and there comes a point where the support goes both ways. It doesn't mean that you put yourself in a situation where you are uncomfortable with your actions, it does not mean that you neglect yourself any more than you would for an infant or a young child: the principle of putting on your own gas mask first still applies.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

I don't see this as just a family issue, but a broader social issue. What does it mean to love our neighbours - it isn't just about not drinking bottled water. It is about giving our time and energy to the people we come in contact with in the ways they really need us to.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
I don't think of it as parenting- I think of it as part of family life, and there comes a point where the support goes both ways. It doesn't mean that you put yourself in a situation where you are uncomfortable with your actions, it does not mean that you neglect yourself any more than you would for an infant or a young child: the principle of putting on your own gas mask first still applies.

Of course no one should neglect themselves. Support goes both ways in my family. Matter of fact it goes in multiple ways. I wouldn't ask my mother to cut off her finger to save mine but she'd sure ditch lunch with a friend if I needed her.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I wouldn't say, "When does the attachment stop?" but "How long are our parents responsible for bailing us out?"


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

I agree with pps -- it's a much larger question than just parenting.

We have been the recipients of some incredibly welcome family support this year (through a couple of serious illnesses, family losses and a massive home repair problem.) I have also given some of it in the past.

I hope to continue that tradition with my DS, keeping in mind that I can only do what I can. (I.e. Put on your own oxygen mask first.) My parents and in-laws have all helped us this year, but they have done so on their own schedule, they didn't say yes to all requests, and while sometimes that was disappointing, I don't consider it a failing on their part. I think that's perfectly fine that the support may not always be immediately available.


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

I have an amazing relationship with my parents. They live a few blocks away, and we get together for coffee nearly every morning. When there are big projects that need to be done here or at their place, it's a collaborative effort, we help them, they help us etc. When I'm having a really crummy day, I know I can swing by for a chat or even just for a cup of tea. When I had DS 1, they took care of DD at their place for a few days. When DS 2 came along, they stayed at our place with the kids.

My mom commutes every day for work, and when she's run down I often 'accidentally' make too much food for dinner and drop some off over there. When my dad fell in the shower, I was able to be there to keep an eye on him for a couple hours, get him some food, and make sure he was ok...

I don't think family support ever needs to end... it simply evolves.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I wouldn't say, "When does the attachment stop?" but "How long are our parents responsible for bailing us out?"

Exactly. Attachment has nothing to do with the question. Attachment never stops. I would hope that in any crisis, happy, or other life-changing event, my dd would think to come to me, no matter her age. Likewise, if I had something happen in my life, I would be able to talk to her about it.

She will always have my emotional support and by default, she'll always have our financial support. I may not always support her decisions, though, and with attachment parenting still in place, I will be able to talk to her about that.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I wouldn't say, "When does the attachment stop?" but "How long are our parents responsible for bailing us out?"

My mother is poor. She has never been able to give me any money, nothing. I was buying all my own school clothes at the age of 14. So if my DS ever needs some financial help for a good reason and I am able to do so, I will.
When I think of your statemnet, I think of a child who makes bad decisions over and over and expects their parent to keep fixing things. That is not what the topic of this discussion is.

I guess I'm weird but I think it's a very normal, healthy part of a familial relationship to be able to depend on one another for support. My mom may not have $ but she has a huge heart and always and ear to listen. That's fine by me. She has taught me that it helps just to be there for your child, let them vent or cry or rejoice. Just listen sometimes.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i did not vote.

my dd is 7 now.

i can never deny her support - any kind. provided i have the ability to.

i look at her and i cant imagine that i could ever deny her. even as a 59 year old.

so in my books. NEVER!!!

provided we both are on the same page.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I think that sometimes what the giver of support means by "support" is different from the recipient's idea.

Would I support my child in a way that they would be happy with, if they continued to go back to an extremely abusive spouse? No, it's likely that I would not.

Would I support my child in their quest to get my grandkids back if my child had beaten them and/or had a pervasive, uncontrolled mental illness? No, I would not.

Sometimes support is less about hand holding and more about not shielding someone from the consequences of their actions. Or it may mean acutally distancing yourself a bit so that they can come to their own conclusions and own their own conclusions.

Sometimes it means swooping in to save the day, absolutely.

I have absolutely no illusions that my children will always be 100 percent satisfied or even happy with the support that I offer. But I will always act in what I perceive to be the best interests of my child and their family. Chances are I'm going to be wrong some of the time. And chances are that my kids and I will not always see eye to eye on what that is.

I can only hope to build a good enough relationship with them that they will love me despite my mistakes, and there is enough of a connection there that we can agree to disagree or talk it out.

But hell no, I will not say that I'll always be there to give whatever support my children may ask for in any circumstance. If they end up having addictions, I'm not going to cook meth or buy crack for them no matter how much they beg for it. And while emotional issues may not always be so obvious or cut and dried I do think that sometimes rushing in to the rescue can be just as dangerous and descructive and unhelpful.

And unlike some folks, I don't think that good parenting will always prevent adult children from going down some very dark paths, so I also have absolutely no expectation that I can control the choices they may for themselves by being the perfect parent. I think that probably every parent had to deal with a child wanting or expressing need for something that they simply don't feel they can or should give.

I hope I'll be brave enough to make the right choice when and if that happens to me. But I'm not stupid enough to make declarations about what I'll do before I'm there--every time I do that it always comes and bites me right in the butt, so I'm pretty much superstitious about it now. :/


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I wouldn't say, "When does the attachment stop?" but "How long are our parents responsible for bailing us out?"

I think it's pretty clear that the OP is not talking about "bailing out" our children, but perhaps we have different ideas of what "bailing out" means.

I can't imagine not being there for my children when they need me. Part of attachment parenting, for me, is forming a life long bond. I want my kids to know I will support them if they need me. And one of my goals is to also teach them to be willing to support each other, and dh and I, and others they are close to, if they need that support.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think it's irresponsible for an adult to rely on any one other person in the way a young child relies on a parent. Adults need to have more than one person to call upon for help, and they have to be able to take care of things themselves if it comes to that. It just isn't the same thing as a child who is still under the care and supervision of a parent. I honestly don't understand how people can think otherwise. That doesn't mean there is no longer an attachment, or that there is not a lifelong bond, just that the parent is no longer ultimately responsible for an adult child's life, and adult children can't expect parents to drop everything for them in the way children can rely on that.


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## treegardner (May 28, 2009)

I will absolutely always be there for my child, but it was too hard to pick one answer. There are too many variables. I have watched my grandmother unconditionally support her daughter (my aunt), which turned into supporting her grandchildren and great-grandchildren (my cousins and their children). It is not a healthy dynamic by any means. It started with very simple things that quickly spiraled out of control.


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## Dukey25 (Nov 19, 2006)

I will never stop loving my children or feeling attached to them. I am sure some of their adult decisions will break my heart but I will support them. However, they are responsible for their adult decisions and I will not tell them what they want to hear if I don't agree. For example I will celebrate a marriage that would not be my preference but I will not stand by my son if he has an affair leaves his kids etc I will love him and support his efforts to do what's right but in the meantime I would support my SIL and the grandkids. (a more extreme example but one I seem to see in real life all the time)


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I voted it never stops. My children will always have my love and support.

My mom is like this, and yes, she would drop everything when I need her to be here for me. When I was unexpectantly hospitalized last year DH called her at three AM to let her know and she was on the earliest flight from Denver to be by my side by the time I got out of emergency surgery. Not only was she there to support me, but my DH so she could take over watching the kids so he could devote his attention to me. My dad came down at first chance as well. That's pretty much what loving parents do, IMO.

Emotional support, financial support, etc. I'll always do whatever is in my power to help my children out. Doesn't matter how old they are. Of course, when there are addiction or abuse issues, it's a bit different... ie a druggie who says they need money... but family equals support, to me.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I *think it's irresponsible for an adult to rely on any one other person in the way a young child relies on a parent.* Adults need to have more than one person to call upon for help, and they have to be able to take care of things themselves if it comes to that. .

Well, I fully expect that Dh and I are going to end up caring for one or another of our parents as they age, and I don't think it's "irresponsible" for them to expect that to eventually happen any more than I think it's "irresponsible" to think that, should our family have a serious crisis (a death or serious illness, for example), we could count on our parents to help us.

At the same time, I think there are plenty of parents who help their kids too much. My parents supply my college-aged brothers with more food money *each* than I spend on our family of three-- which has led to my brothers eating lots of take-out all the time and having a very unhealthy lifestyle.
My Dh stayed for years at a college he HATED (and he didn't make much of an effort to succeed, either, IMO) because his parents were paying the bills without question. I really believe if they had just said, "Well, we've paid for four years-- you're on your own!" he might have either buckled down *or* chosen a program he actually cared about. Now he has a degree which took almost six years of his (our!) life to complete, and he's never used it at all.

When Dh and I sold our house sooner than we expected, both sets of our parents immediately offered to let us come stay with them. As it turned out, just after they offered their hospitality to us, my mom and dad discovered that they would need someone to take care of their house for six months-- so they were going to be doing US a big favor, and now we're doing THEM a big favor at the same time


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

I think there are alot of terms being defined differently between these two threads.

What is a crisis? Is a situation of the person's own making which doesn't have any immediate consequences a "crisis"? Different people are going to define "crisis" differently. Is having a crappy day a "crisis"?

And then there's the question of what is "support". And that's going to depend on both parties. I see it already with my DD. She wants different things WRT "support" from DH and I. If she's having a hard time putting on her shoes, she wants him to physically do it for her. If she's with me, the mere offer makes her really mad. And again, DH and I have different ideas as to what's "reasonable" in terms of support. He grew up with bail-out parents. He thinks it was really sweet that when a girl at school turned him down when he asked her out that his mom went out and bought him flowers and a card. I think that's creep and crossed alot of lines. In my family I would have gotten a hug and asked what I wanted for supper. I'm the one who's able to deal with disasters when they happen and my DH is the one who has no clue what to do because there's no one holding his hand.

And then there's the age old debate about "what is attachment parenting"... If you take the most basic definition, it's about meeting your child's needs. Those needs change as the child grows. It wouldn't be appropriate to breastfeed you married son if he was having a bad day. How you comfort and keep an attachment to an adult child is vastly different from how you do so with a younger one, and that's vastly different from how you do it with a baby.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
Well, I fully expect that Dh and I are going to end up caring for one or another of our parents as they age, and I don't think it's "irresponsible" for them to expect that to eventually happen any more than I think it's "irresponsible" to think that, should our family have a serious crisis (a death or serious illness, for example), we could count on our parents to help us.

Why wouldn't it be your parent's responsibility to make sure they were looked after? I think it is irresponsible for parent to expect/rely on their children to care for them in old age. It's an incredible drain on that generation. I've been watching my boss over the last couple years just be torn apart trying to be a grandmother to her children's children and a caregiver to her elderly mother. The poor woman is simply done.


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I think it's irresponsible for an adult to rely on any one other person in the way a young child relies on a parent. Adults need to have more than one person to call upon for help, and they have to be able to take care of things themselves if it comes to that. It just isn't the same thing as a child who is still under the care and supervision of a parent. I honestly don't understand how people can think otherwise. That doesn't mean there is no longer an attachment, or that there is not a lifelong bond, just that the parent is no longer ultimately responsible for an adult child's life, and adult children can't expect parents to drop everything for them in the way children can rely on that.

Ditto this.

I also want to add, as an adult, my relationship with my parents have changed from one where my parents provide emotional/financial support to me, to one that is a bit more equal... they support me when I need it, and in turn when they need it, offer them the same kind of support.

My parents and IL's are still working (well, except for my dad who recently became permanently disabled), and DH and I respect that their free time is valuable, that they have other responsibilities outside of their roles as "Mom and Dad", so we try to be mindful of that when we ask for help.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I think it's irresponsible for an adult to rely on any one other person in the way a young child relies on a parent. Adults need to have more than one person to call upon for help, and they have to be able to take care of things themselves if it comes to that. It just isn't the same thing as a child who is still under the care and supervision of a parent. I honestly don't understand how people can think otherwise. That doesn't mean there is no longer an attachment, or that there is not a lifelong bond, just that the parent is no longer ultimately responsible for an adult child's life, and adult children can't expect parents to drop everything for them in the way children can rely on that.

Taking your post literally, in that a grown person depending on their parents like, say, a 7 year old might, I totally agree with. But in a broader sense that encompasses not only my immediate family, but my close friends as well, I am most definitely a part of a social network that helps people out when they need it.

Do I rely on people for support? Sure. Can the relationship equate to a relationship between a mother and small child? Absolutely not. I am an independent adult, but at the same, I think there is tremendous merit to having a support system in place where there is a certain degree of unconditional love and support so you can call people up and say "I'm having a rotten day, could you come help me out?".

Will I always be able to drop everything to help my daughter? Probably not. But I don't see the harm in wanting to or trying my hardest when she calls upon me.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

There was a very similar topic to this in TAO no long ago. Here's a link for those interested...

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...663&highlight=


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
*Taking your post literally, in that a grown person depending on their parents like, say, a 7 year old might, I totally agree with.* But in a broader sense that encompasses not only my immediate family, but my close friends as well, I am most definitely a part of a social network that helps people out when they need it.

Do I rely on people for support? Sure. Can the relationship equate to a relationship between a mother and small child? Absolutely not. I am an independent adult, but at the same, I think there is tremendous merit to having a support system in place where there is a certain degree of unconditional love and support so you can call people up and say "I'm having a rotten day, could you come help me out?".

Will I always be able to drop everything to help my daughter? Probably not. But I don't see the harm in wanting to or trying my hardest when she calls upon me.

I bolded the part that I'm taking exception to on this thread. Some of the other posters are suggesting that a parent should _always_ respond the same way you might with an upset 7yo. That if your child calls you up crying, no matter what the reason, if you are physically able to go to them you should.


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## beckyand3littlemonsters (Sep 16, 2006)

Never-child can get any kind of help from me, financial,emotional,etc.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

One thing that I think is important here is that how you raise your child(ren) will influence everyone's expectations around support.

I hope and expect that DS will know that he can call on us if he needs or wants our support, but I also hope that we do a good enough job that he doesn't truly _need_ us too often.

I think that it starts to get sticky on the parental side when you have an otherwise capable adult child who is somehow non-functional without parental support.

I am grateful for family emotional and logistical support we have received in difficult circumstances. But we didn't _need_ it and our parents clearly felt comfortable saying no when they needed to. I think that's a healthy situation.

For babies and young children, some sort of adult support is a must-have. For most adults, support is a really-really-nice-to-have (and, IMHO, something to which all families should strive), but if it becomes a must-have, that suggests a situation in which someone is not fully functioning as an adult. Fine for temporary situations, but not a good long term situation.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I bolded the part that I'm taking exception to on this thread. Some of the other posters are suggesting that a parent should _always_ respond the same way you might with an upset 7yo. That if your child calls you up crying, no matter what the reason, if you are physically able to go to them you should.

I think the difference is that an adult calling a parent crying would presumably be doing it for a very different reason than a 7 year old. If an adult child called me crying because she skinned her knee and wanted me to come kiss it better and put a magic bandaid on it, I would be concerned about her mental health. If she called me crying because her husband cheated on her, I'd think it was normal and I would try to figure out what she needed from me in the way of support - be that just a kind ear to listen, money to move out, help making a plan, help deciding if she wanted to try to work it out, someone to come watch the kids while she grieved over her marriage, someone one to hug her, etc.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
That if your child calls you up crying, no matter what the reason, if you are physically able to go to them you should.

This is where I'm getting stuck. It's sounds as if you're saying that offering support to someone who is crying (which for an adult usually goes a lot deeper than a broken toy or someone not sharing with you) is akin to coddling a 7 year old. It's not. Emotional support is so important, and to say someone is _just_ crying is really dismissive of their emotional state. I don't understand why a terrible flu or a broken leg is more worthy of support than "crying".

I've helped friends a family before who were emotional basket cases. I can't imagine not helping them. And I don't equate taking someone's emotional state to a parent-child relationship. Everyone cries. Everyone gets upset. Why is it that adults shouldn't be loved and supported through that? And if they are, why is it down played or compared to childish, immature, co-dependent behavior?

Support is support is support. For us it doesn't really matter if the person is crying from marriage troubles, collection calls, or just got into a car wreck, or their mother died. When someone calls me up, upset, and begging my help, I do what I can to help! It would really never dawn on me to scrutinize someone's need for my support and use that as a determining factor for whether or no I'll oblige. This may be due in part to the relationships I have with anyone who would be calling me up for help, my first reaction would be to attend and work through the issues first, and if needed analyze my reaction later, like in the case of being taken advantage of. Again though, that's unlikely in my circle of friends. But if it happened, I wouldn't use someone's emotional distress as a teaching opportunity. But again, I recognize that this is probably due to the nature of my relationships. I think the waters get muddied when there are issues of taking people for granted, etc.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Never. My mom still buys things for me and is there for me emotionally, and I plan to do the same for my kids. If I somehow end up really wealthy when they're adults, I'd happily support them to the point that they wouldn't even have to work a paid job. Why wouldn't someone want to do that for their kids?


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
This is where I'm getting stuck. *It's sounds as if you're saying that offering support to someone who is crying (which for an adult usually goes a lot deeper than a broken toy or someone not sharing with you) is akin to coddling a 7 year old.* It's not. Emotional support is so important, and to say someone is _just_ crying is really dismissive of their emotional state. I don't understand why a terrible flu or a broken leg is more worthy of support than "crying".

No! I'm saying that the response to a crying person will change based on their age.

What's reasonable to do for a 7yo isn't reasonable to do for an adult.

I probably am dismissive of adults crying. It is such a breakdown of control.

Quote:

I've helped friends a family before who were emotional basket cases. I can't imagine not helping them. And I don't equate taking someone's emotional state to a parent-child relationship. Everyone cries. Everyone gets upset. Why is it that adults shouldn't be loved and supported through that? And if they are, why is it down played or compared to childish, immature, co-dependent behavior?
They should be loved and supported. I have never argued against that.

What I think is ridiculous is the expectation that another adult should have to drop everything they are doing to give that love and support immediately. Apparently, waiting until the next day isn't good enough. Talking on the phone isn't good enough. Does that mean that parents should never move to a different city? If a child moves, should the parents follow?

I also think that adults should have additional sources of support. Children don't have that luxury, but adults do.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
No! I'm saying that the response to a crying person will change based on their age.

What's reasonable to do for a 7yo isn't reasonable to do for an adult.

I probably am dismissive of adults crying. It is such a breakdown of control.

They should be loved and supported. I have never argued against that.

What I think is ridiculous is the expectation that another adult should have to drop everything they are doing to give that love and support immediately. Apparently, waiting until the next day isn't good enough. Talking on the phone isn't good enough. Does that mean that parents should never move to a different city? If a child moves, should the parents follow?

I also think that adults should have additional sources of support. Children don't have that luxury, but adults do.

To the blue part- Wowza! I'm all for a good cleansing cry, it's cathartic. I can't imagine thinking of it as a breakdown in control. We're human, humans cry, even adults. I even bawl at HAPPY things.

To the red part- I agree! I don't think anyone here said that parents should be the only source of support.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Latte Mama* 
To the blue part- Wowza! I'm all for a good cleansing cry, it's cathartic. I can't imagine thinking of it as a breakdown in control. We're human, humans cry, even adults. I even bawl at HAPPY things.

To the red part- I agree! I don't think anyone here said that parents should be the only source of support.

I should have clarified that.

I have no problem with a good cleansing cry done at a good time. But I think that adults should have the level of control to keep it together until they have support in place.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Other.

This depends on so many factors that there's no possible way I could answer it. Six years ago, dh and I moved into my mom's place, partly due to the fact that our landlord (who lived upstairs) was nuts...but largely because it was a way that we, with our limited income, could help my mom with her mortgage and other expenses while she was in a financial bad spot. About a year and a half later, we lived there on charity, as my maternity leave for dd1 had run out, and dh's legal residency hadn't been sorted out so that he could work. We took over the cooking and most of the shopping, and mom let us live there rent free. Give and take, yk? We started out helping her out, and she ended up helping us out. Prior to that, she'd also loaned me the money for a lawyer, when my ex turned up in jail and I needed to get him served quickly with divorce papers (he wasn only in jail for a couple of months, and had no fixed address, otherwise).

When my uncle died, I sat beside her at the funeral, and held her hand and passed her tissues, and let her cry talk about him. That's something I think anyone could/should do for a family member who is hurting. When I was in labour with Aaron, she came to the house to hold my hand and see how I was doing. When he died, she took me to the funeral home to arrange his cremation, and she took me to ds1's school (4 days after the stillbirth) to talk to his school counselor, so they knew what was going on. She helped us shop. Those are all things I'd expect a parent to do, and I'd certainly do them for any child of mine in a crisis.

It's not that I think this stuff is part of my "job" or part of my mother's "job". It's that parent/child is an attached relationship, imo. While the childrearing aspect eventually goes away, the attachment doesn't. And...I once went and picked up a friend who called me in tears in the wee small hours, because her boyfriend had been verbally and emotionally and borderline physically abusive that evening and left her at home alone in tears. She was my _friend_, which is/was also an attached relationship, if a less intense one. My bff drove here from Colorado late in my pregnancy with Aaron, because she knew I was overwhelmed and wanted to help. We have an attached relationship, too.

I want my kids to be as self-sufficient as they can be, but I can't imagine ever refusing to help to the best of my ability in a crisis, no matter what the nature of that crisis may be. But, you know....I'd help either of my parents to the best of my ability in a crisis, too. Why wouldn't I?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Now that I've read the rest of the thread (only skimmed a couple posts, but read them all), I do have one other comment.

It would be nice for everyone to have other support. It's not always feasible. One case where it's often not feasible is in the breakup of a marriage. When my ex and I split up, we'd been together for 15 years. With _one_ exception, my friends were his friends, too. The few old friends that weren't friends to both of us weren't closely involved with my life. When our marriage started to really fall apart, I had nobody to turn to, except _one_ friend, who was going through a major crisis of her own, and my mom. That's all there was. It's great to say that adults "should" have other support, but that doesn't mean they have that. Plus, in an abusive relationship, the abusive partner has often spent a _lot_ of time and effort in damaging or destroying the other person's emotional connections to other people. When the person on the receiving end finally realizes how abusive the partner is, and how isolated they are, they have nowhere to go.

When my first marriage came crashing down around my ears, I'd have loved to have a support network. I had my mom (and a few online friends - the closest of whom was about 1500 miles away) - that was it. I'm glad she was willing to help. I'm also glad she realized that if I was on the phone, both crying _and_ asking for help (a place to stay to clear my head, if anyone cares), I was in _bad_ shape. And, yeah - my "control" broke down. People can be as impatient with that as they want, but everyone has their breaking point, and I tried to function _way_ beyond mine.


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## hillymum (May 15, 2003)

I would like to think that I will always be attached to my children but I can not say I will always support them. There will be times I will say no to them, the same as I do now while they are children. If there is an emergancy I hope I will be able to go to them, but I also hope they will have others around them who will also help. I might not be physically close to them so be unable to be there other than for offering words of comfort.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

A mother never stops being attached to her children. Over the years, the nature of this relationship will naturally undergo changes, rewriting the definition and expression of this attachment. But, barring dysfunctionality, attachment is a natural part of the mother-child bond. It is part of what makes us human, an extension of the deeply social nature of our being. To detach, is an artificial construct.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
It's great to say that adults "should" have other support, but that doesn't mean they have that. Plus, in an abusive relationship, the abusive partner has often spent a _lot_ of time and effort in damaging or destroying the other person's emotional connections to other people. When the person on the receiving end finally realizes how abusive the partner is, and how isolated they are, they have nowhere to go.

.

Great point. With my alcoholic ex, he really did isolate me from my friends however they were right there for me when I left him. I know I'm lucky and also that his destructive process wasn't completed. Many times, addicts and abusers do completely sever all ties between their spouse and sources of support. When it comes down to it, you'd hope one could go to their parent.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I should have clarified that.

I have no problem with a good cleansing cry done at a good time. But I think that adults should have the level of control to keep it together until they have support in place.

And not everyone can do that. So?


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

I had to vote other because it REALLY depends on the situation. Well, for one, DS is special needs, so he may always need our support, financially and otherwise. Assuming I have other (neurotypical) kids though, it just depends. Lets say a DC is making stupid decision after stupid decision and can't even pay rent. I would totally help them put themselves on a budget and support them that way. I would be doing no good by just handing them money though. But lets say DC has a car accident and can't get to work. I would gladly help out then. Sometimes shit just happens and that's what family is for, kwim?


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

i will always be there for my child and for my grandchildren. I am not the sort of person who feels the need to teach someone a lesson, or help them stand on their own to feet. granted there are some things I would not be able to help my children do (enable an addiction, abuse or truely bad choices) but if my kids lost their job and were hungry I would buy them food. if they needed a place to stay they could come stay with me until whatever propblem they have is worked out (I very likely may be moving in my x-mil soon if my house sells. hows that for humility)

I hope that my children have leave my home with the skills and confidence they need to make a good go of it. I hope they are not whiners that come running back to me for evry little discomfort. but I also hope they feel perfectly free to ask me for help when they need it.

I would hope my kids first resource is family. My family sucks and I can count on them to be there for me when I need it. I can't imagine feeling any kind of closeness to someone who would turn me away and tell me it is time to stand on my own two feet because I am however many years old.

my kids will never have to feel bad for coming to me. they are my kids. it is my privledge to help them out if they need it. I hope I have raised them well enough to not abuse that.

and I would hope if my kids needed someone I would be their first safe place. (well their spouse of course is probably their first stop for support unless their spouse is the problem...) Sure we should all have mutiple sources of support, thats great, the more the better, but that doesn't change the fact that there is just noone else like your mom. And I hope that my kids will always know there is nothing they can do that will make me love them less or not be there for them or consider them a burden.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I think it's irresponsible for an adult to rely on any one other person in the way a young child relies on a parent.

Agreed. I feel that part of my job as a parent is to help my children grew into adults who can take care of themselves.

<<Never-child can get any kind of help from me, financial,emotional,etc.>>

I think this is the definition of an enabler.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hillymum* 
There will be times I will say no to them, the same as I do now while they are children.

On one hand, I will always be there for my children, but at the same time, there are times now when they *think* they need but I know they that they really don't, so I let them handle things on their own. I tell them I have confidence in them. I let them find their own strength. I believe in them.

Doing more for a child (or adult) than they really need done for them is no more helpful than doing less than they need. My kids are 11 and 13 and I believe that how I help them find their strength now will help lessen how much they depend on me as adults. They aren't babies any more. I'm helping them become the strong women they are capable of being.


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## Proudmom2Teeg (Oct 7, 2009)

I will always be there for my son in whatever way I can no matter what!!! I at times have felt my mother has not been there for me over the years. It really hurts! I dont want my son to ever feel the way I do towards my mother. I wish I could turn to her when I needed her!


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

I voted never. I will not support my children 100% in any way if they are capable of doing so themselves and choose not to. But even if they are 40 and have a good job and hit a rough spot and need a little cash, I would do it, if I were able. Or if they are 30 and get divorced and need to live with me for a month. Absolutely I would do it. Or if they were 25 and their first child were stillborn and they were devastated, they could absolutely lay in my lap and cry. Or even if they are 19 and flunked out of a class at college and needed to vent to someone. I'm here.

My parents are there for me and have been there for me since I was born. I would be devastated if I was in any of those situations and they just couldn't be bothered to help me if they were able.

But I also give back to them. It's a two-way relationship. I've loaned my mom money. I've done my dad's grocery shopping. I've listened to them vent. I've been there when they've cried.

My DS is not quite 5 and is learning that relationships are two-way. It's interesting to see him realize this. He's a very generous kid and tries to be helpful. It's little things. He brought me an apple juice today. I felt bad when I told him I didn't really like juice. He got upset and said, "I was trying to be nice mom!" and I encouraged him that it WAS a really nice thing to do and I appreciate it, but I truly don't like apple juice. Then I gave him a hug. He'll sometimes rub my back when I'm lounging on the bed, ready to pass out and the day is not even half way through. He brings me a book (mine, not his) sometimes when I'm rocking his sister to sleep. When we go to the store, he points out things he thinks I would like.

How could I ever deny a child (or adult) so giving and caring? I would always be willing to help out a friend in any way I could if I needed it, why would there be an age or situation where I shut off the giving part of my relationship with my child?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
My DS is not quite 5 and is learning that relationships are two-way. It's interesting to see him realize this. He's a very generous kid and tries to be helpful. It's little things. He brought me an apple juice today.

Kids can be so amazing. When I was flat on my back on the couch after Aaron died, dd1 (4 at the time) kept trying to nurse me back to health. She'd bring me food and water and the microwaveable heart from the Earth Mama Angel Baby recovery kit someone sent, and....it was just amazing. Even in the horrible state I was in, it sunk in. I remember being both sad that she was trying to take care of me, when I should have been taking care of her, and so...proud & humbled, all at once, that she was being such an amazing little girl.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I probably am dismissive of adults crying. It is such a breakdown of control.

I couldn't disagree more. Not gunna bother explaining why, suffice to say, it doesn't matter, I have the support in place to be an uncontrollable basket case should it ever come to that.







To be quite honest, it's nice to know people got my back.









Quote:

What I think is ridiculous is the expectation that another adult should have to drop everything they are doing to give that love and support immediately. Apparently, waiting until the next day isn't good enough. Talking on the phone isn't good enough. Does that mean that parents should never move to a different city? If a child moves, should the parents follow?
Hmm. I agree and disagree. I think the situation is relative. If I were shopping and someone called me up crying and needed to sit down over a cup of coffee, I'd be there as soon as I could. If I were in the middle of a root canal it might have to wait a bit. I do the best I can with the situation. But that's just it, I do the best I _can_, not what is convenient. Sometimes helping people is down right INconvenient. But I love my family and my friends so I do it.

Do you think you should only help people if it's convenient? Or if the situation is something that YOU have determined worthy of support? That's rather conditional, isn't it?

Quote:

I also think that adults should have additional sources of support. Children don't have that luxury, but adults do.
To address something you said in the other thread about family being your default support system, I whole heartily agree that blood does not determine your closeness or relationship status. I have blood relations that I barely speak too and would never dream of calling upon. I also have people that are of no relation but have been my friend for close to 20 years and I'm confident would give me a kidney if I needed one. But to say that someone SHOULD have other support is kind of silly. You're close with who ever you're close with. If that happens to be your mother, so be it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
But I think that adults should have the level of control to keep it together until they have support in place.

Having suffered from severe PPD (in hind sight







), I have to say that this is easier said than done. Self preservation is important, and sometimes I needed a break BEFORE it was too late. Call it a lack of control if you want, it doesn't make me less of a person. In fact, I only feel more blessed that I had people to call on. I can't imagine being in that dark place knowing that I had to put on a game face and suck it up so I didn't bother someone while they were out shopping. Gah. What a horrible way to live!

For me it was PPD, for someone else it might be an alcoholic husband, or a self destructive sibling, but if you're really trying to imply that anyone who goes through a hard time in their life needs to suck up their emotions and maintain control so as not inconvenience people, then I don't know what to say.

I'm inconvenienced by my loved ones occasionally, but I don't put conditions on our relationship, and certainly not relating to when they should and should not call upon me for support.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

An anecdote: When my sister was just staring off and needed to buy her own disability insurance, she was talking to my uncle (who sold insurance). She was very concerned that at her income level, she could only afford long term disability, but not short term disability. What would she do for the short term?

My uncle looked at her and said "That's what families are for."

Families are intended to support one another. What form that support takes depends on the needs and the means of the family involved. I hope that I will equip my children for independent living and for smart decisions in the future. We're working hard on those skills, and will continue to do so. But I would also hope that a family would be a place for love and support, regardless of age.

When I had PPD, my oldest sister dropped what she was doing and came out for a week to help. Other family also came to help. I was in a situation where I was not functioning well, and my family came to my aid. My parents, had they been able to help physically, would have come.

In terms of the questions posed:

*Emotional support?* Always.
*Financial support?* It depends on the situation. I won't loan a child money to rescue them from bad financial decisions (wrecking your car and not carrying insurance, bad investments), or if they're currently using drugs/alcohol. But if they need a little help for sound reasons and I can help, I'll try. I'd do what I could to keep a child (even adult child) from becoming homeless, but I'd probably attach strings (job counseling, drug rehab, whatever it was). If my child chose drugs over rehab, then so be it.

In terms of children supporting adult parents:
Yes, parents have a responsibility to make sure they're stable, but like children, sometimes they can't do that. Sometimes they thought they did that and things changed (as in their company pension disappeared). I will support my parents to the best of my ability. They're earned that right after 43 years of parenting and support of me.

I shudder to think what society would become if we don't feel a personal responsibility for members of our family, young or old.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:

If I somehow end up really wealthy when they're adults, I'd happily support them to the point that they wouldn't even have to work a paid job. Why wouldn't someone want to do that for their kids?
Really? I wouldn't. And not because I don't love my daughter.







I think being able to live without working is a dangerous privilege even for people who have earned it by their own hard work; but potentially character-crushing for kids who were born into that privilege. I don't want comfort for my daughter more than I want her to learn responsibility, the merits of hard work, the situation 99% of the world has to deal with.

Which is not to say I'm going to chuck her in a sweatshop at the age of ten or anything. But yeah... no. It'll be a minor miracle if DH and I end up fabulously wealthy, but if we did I'd want that to be something we used to enrich her life and teach her, not to let her opt out of a VERY vital and meaningful part of life - that of earning one's daily bread.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

and for those of you who think an adult should be able to take care of themselves, what is you plan for when you are old and unable? chances are your kids will not want to be btohered with the inconvinience of caring for an adult.....

In our family we take care of each other. everyone needs someone. you don't need to burden your friends. families are for sharing burdens. When I am sick my kids take care of me. when they are sick I take care of them. it is already a two way street. and I am sure that will contiunue until I am very old.


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## LuxPerpetua (Dec 17, 2003)

I believe that God gave us families for a reason--to be interdependent (or co-dependent, however you like to say it) and to help each other. So, in that light, I believe that parenting is a life-long event. Of course, I would give my child financial, emotional, and physical assistance as an adult, just as I would give her advice, hugs, a shoulder to cry on, and whatever else she needed. I would also expect her to care for me if I needed it and she was able to provide it. It honestly never would have occurred to me that others felt otherwise. I hate a "pioneering" spirit and find it very unnatural to the way God created humanity to function.

People have mentioned things like drug/alcohol addictions and abusive behaviors, etc., and I still fully believe that if you have a strong attached relationship these behaviors will not occur, so that doesn't even factor into my equation. I also believe that for those in that situation, what that person "needs" is help, not ennabling of those destructive behaviors. So, although I don't believe that I will ever be in that situation, I would definitely provide for the true "needs" of my child and help her recover her life.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
In our family we take care of each other. everyone needs someone. you don't need to burden your friends. families are for sharing burdens. When I am sick my kids take care of me. when they are sick I take care of them. it is already a two way street. and I am sure that will contiunue until I am very old.

Absolutely. One of the things that made me fall in love with my husband was the fact that as a young guy (his early 20's) he moved with his grandmother and her sister to help them out when they started showing signs of Alzheimers.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

I have a very conflicted relationship with my mother. And my parents live across the country. So I don't get much day-to-day support from them for various reasons.

But I do know that they WILL support me if I needed them. That makes such a big difference to me. That support could come in any number of ways, such as them jumping on a plane and coming, them letting me live with them, them sending me a check. Or even just a phone call to work through some difficult emotions.

When I was a teen and young adult, my father made it clear both verbally and in action, that wherever I was, if I needed him, he'd be there. If I called him from some party stoned out of my mind needing a ride, he'd hop in the car and come get me, no questions asked. (He never had to but I seriously have NO DOUBT it would be just like that). Or when I went away to college 4 hours from home with no car, I knew I could call him. Or if I ever broke down at the side of the road, even if he was across the country he'd be on the phone to AAA or a tow truck or whatever. This really means a lot.

And yes, I similarly have no doubt that if I were falling apart and called my mom while she was shopping nearby, she would dump her purchases right there and come right over. It really does make a positive difference in my life to KNOW that my parents value me more than their shopping or other conveniences - even if I haven't asked that of them since adolescence.

I don't think the definition of being an "adult" is "not relying on anyone else" - I think that's the definition of a rock, maybe. I do feel badly for those who are emotionally hardened to the point where they feel convenience comes first, or they think there is some purpose of life other than for us to be there for each other. Perhaps this is just a cultural thing, a "stiff upper lip" that is valued in some places - but yeah, I just think that it misses the whole point of life. We're not alone. And, if we are... how utterly heartbreaking.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

When I was 17, I was in an argument with my mom about something or other, and I said to her: "Well, you had me!"
She responded: "How long will I have to pay for that mistake?"

I'll never forget that. I never want my kids to feel like they are a burden to me. So I'll be here, in whatever way I can, as long as they need me.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
and for those of you who think an adult should be able to take care of themselves, what is you plan for when you are old and unable? chances are your kids will not want to be btohered with the inconvinience of caring for an adult.....

DH and I, even though we are young, already have financial plans in place to take care of us when we are old. Our DD1 will be ~60 when we're 80. It will not be her job to take care of us. Nor will it be her children's...


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
DH and I, even though we are young, already have financial plans in place to take care of us when we are old. Our DD1 will be ~60 when we're 80. It will not be her job to take care of us. Nor will it be her children's...

It is a relatively new western societal expectation that younger generations be free of the "burden" of the elderly. Not one I'm particularly fond of either. But in general, we don't respect family the way many other cultures do either, as evidenced by this thread.

I'm a little curious why people who feel that way are into attachment parenting. For me it was a fundamental respect for my daughter, and in fact I was doing it before I knew it had a name. That fundamental respect doesn't end when she's 18, or 80. The concept of children no longer NEEDING their parents past a certain age, and parents not "burdening" their children is completely foreign to me.

I'm curious when we began thinking that taking care of grown adults became a burden or a sign of weakness. Humans have evolved with a sense of community, by taking care of the elderly, by looking out for one another, and by making sure everyone was taken care of. I would be lying if I said I wasn't a bit worried what a society would be like without any of those social practices. Cold, isolated, lonely...


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

The issues of co-dependency aside (for adult children), I think it is terribly sad that our culture finds it perfectly acceptable to put the elderly away in assisted living so that the younger generation doesn't have to deal with them. It's like: okay, you're old now, you're a burden, its not my job to take care of you. This really hit home for me when I was a child. My sister and I used to visit nursing homes and let me tell you, although these people were taken well care of physically, they were incredibly lonely and bored. My parents will move into our one-bedroom apartment before I put them in a nursing home, even if it takes certain sacrifices on our parts. I don't think "family" is a "job." It is an extension of your own life and it is a fact of life. Not something to be patted on the back for when you actually do it and not something to check at the doorstep of independence. We complain loudly that the corporate world has devalued the concept of family, but we are actually doing it to ourselves.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I'm a little curious why people who feel that way are into attachment parenting. For me it was a fundamental respect for my daughter, and in fact I was doing it before I knew it had a name. That fundamental respect doesn't end when she's 18, or 80. The concept of children no longer NEEDING their parents past a certain age, and parents not "burdening" their children is completely foreign to me.

I"m into attachment parenting because I think that the best way to raise competent independent adults is by meeting their needs early and often.

I hope that as my children reach adulthood we both like each other and our relationship can move onto the next level of being friends. But I know first hand that sometimes people don't like each other. My father and I have a great relationship. I would even call us friends. My mother and I? We are so different that it's just not possible. We do care about each other since we've sent 26 years together, but it doesn't go past that.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CatsCradle* 
The issues of co-dependency aside (for adult children), I think it is terribly sad that our culture finds it perfectly acceptable to put the elderly away in assisted living so that the younger generation doesn't have to deal with them. It's like: okay, you're old now, you're a burden, its not my job to take care of you. This really hit home for me when I was a child. My sister and I used to visit nursing homes and let me tell you, although these people were taken well care of physically, they were incredibly lonely and bored. My parents will move into our one-bedroom apartment before I put them in a nursing home, even if it takes certain sacrifices on our parts. I don't think "family" is a "job." It is an extension of your own life and it is a fact of life. Not something to be patted on the back for when you actually do it and not something to check at the doorstep of independence. We complain loudly that the corporate world has devalued the concept of family, but we are actually doing it to ourselves.

I agree with everything here.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I"m into attachment parenting because I think that the best way to raise competent independent adults is by meeting their needs early and often.

While certainly worthy goals, that's secondary to the respect I have for her as an individual. Placing the emphasis on WHO I want her to become through my actions as a parent is setting us both up for disappointment.

My biggest fear, based on this thread in the context of emotional support, is her not coming to me because she'll think her mental health issues will be construed as weakness, dependence, or incompetence. Fostering a relationship that allows her the comfort and ability to ask for help without judgement is, I think, steeped in respect. Being goal oriented from an early age with a predetermined outcome in mind doesn't leave a lot of doors open should things not work out that way.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
While certainly worthy goals, that's secondary to the respect I have for her as an individual. Placing the emphasis on WHO I want her to become through my actions as a parent is setting us both up for disappointment.

My biggest fear, based on this thread in the context of emotional support, is her not coming to me because she'll think her mental health issues will be construed as weakness, dependence, or incompetence. Fostering a relationship that allows her the comfort and ability to ask for help without judgement is, I think, steeped in respect. Being goal oriented from an early age with a predetermined outcome in mind doesn't leave a lot of doors open should things not work out that way.


I should be clear.

I have NO issue with asking someone for help. That hasn't been my issue in either thread. People are welcome to make sure of whatever relationships they have formed.

My problem is the expectation people seem to have that a mother would drop everything simply because she's the "mother".

Relationships between 2 adults are just that. They are between 2 adults. Both parties have a part to play in forming and maintaining that relationship.

If my dad needed my help, since we have a strong healthy relationship, I would give it if I possibly could. And I know he'd do the same.

My mother? She spent most of my life making me miserable and could care less about me as an adult. I've made all "reasonable" attempts to form an adult relationship with her and they have all been dismissed. Would I go running to her? No! But, I know she wouldn't come running to me.

My objection is to the idea that no attention needs to be paid to the relationship itself. That it's the family ties that are the end all be all of the situation.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I used to work at a nursing home and I would never let a family member I loved live there (or assisted living, for that matter). For those that don't want to be a bureden on your children (or be burdened by taking care of aging parents) I really hope you have a better plan than nursing home care.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I have NO issue with asking someone for help. That hasn't been my issue in either thread.

Maybe I misread then. I thought you were of the belief that asking for help, ie, having someone drop everything to run over and "hold someone's hand" is ridiculous, that you should be able to stand on your own two feet, and you're unsympathetic to adults who need emotional support.

I agree that because someone gave birth to you doesn't mean you have a wonderful supportive relationship.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Maybe I misread then. I thought you were of the belief that asking for help, ie, having someone drop everything to run over and "hold someone's hand" is ridiculous, that you should be able to stand on your own two feet, and you're unsympathetic to adults who need emotional support.

I agree that because someone gave birth to you doesn't mean you have a wonderful supportive relationship.

What I object to is that there is an expectation that someone would do that just because they are "family". If there is no pre-existing relationship, who would expect that to happen? It's not like relationships are this magic thing... They take work and effort.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I should be clear.

I have NO issue with asking someone for help. That hasn't been my issue in either thread. People are welcome to make sure of whatever relationships they have formed.

My problem is the expectation people seem to have that a mother would drop everything simply because she's the "mother".

Exactly! The issue is that the mother shouldn't be expected to be obligated to drop everything at any time for adult children. There's no shame in wanting help, and if you call someone and that person can't help, then call someone else. There's no shame in having to call a dozen people before you find someone who can help at that time. But I think it's wrong to pick apart the mother and judge whether her reasons for being unavailable are "good enough". When her kids are adults, her level of obligation for meeting their needs isn't the same as when they are children. If she isn't available, for whatever reason, her adult children can certainly go elsewhere for help. There's nothing wrong with needing help. But to then vilify the mom for not dropping everything is where my issue is.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I'm curious when we began thinking that taking care of grown adults became a burden or a sign of weakness. Humans have evolved with a sense of community, by taking care of the elderly, by looking out for one another, and by making sure everyone was taken care of. I would be lying if I said I wasn't a bit worried what a society would be like without any of those social practices. Cold, isolated, lonely...

Well said. I already know that I will take care of my mom when it's time. It just feels right and natural to do so.


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Exactly! The issue is that the mother shouldn't be expected to be obligated to drop everything at any time for adult children. There's no shame in wanting help, and if you call someone and that person can't help, then call someone else. There's no shame in having to call a dozen people before you find someone who can help at that time. But I think it's wrong to pick apart the mother and judge whether her reasons for being unavailable are "good enough". When her kids are adults, her level of obligation for meeting their needs isn't the same as when they are children. If she isn't available, for whatever reason, her adult children can certainly go elsewhere for help. There's nothing wrong with needing help. But to then vilify the mom for not dropping everything is where my issue is.

Ditto.

I'm from a large, very close family myself, but I wouldn't dream of being upset at my mother if she couldn't drop everything and help me out every time I needed it. The time where my needs (or wants) come before my parents needs and wants have long since passed. I'm not a child, I'm not disabled, and I do have other people I could call to ask for help.

Re: the nursing home comments... I think posters should not be so judgmental about that either. Making the decision to put a loved one in a nursing home is never an easy one.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WC_hapamama* 
Re: the nursing home comments... I think posters should not be so judgmental about that either. Making the decision to put a loved one in a nursing home is never an easy one.

I know it's not. And I didn't mean to sound judgmental, so I apologize. I just can't personally imagine putting my own parents in one after they took care of me for so many years. Of course everyone's situations are different, and who knows how complicated my own life will be at that point, but I find it odd that people would feel burdened by taking care of an aging parent, or worry about putting their children in that position. As long as you have the space, and the means to care for them, it just seems like the right thing to do, IMO. Now, if you don't have a normal, decent relationship with your parents or grown children, then this may not apply.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
The issue is that the mother shouldn't be expected to be obligated to drop everything at any time for adult children.

I will always want to help my children, but that doesn't mean I will drop EVERY thing at ANY time. I would evaluate the situation and decide if I'm truly needed right that second or not. My mom has done the same thing for me. She's dropped out of school before to help me with DD, when she was fighting for her life in the NICU. I would do the same for my children. A school quarter can be taken later. A child and grandchild needing help can't wait. I've called my mom in the middle of the night to watch DD while DBF took me to the ER (bad allergic reaction). She knew it couldn't wait. Sure, I could have hauled DD to the ER with me, but then she would have been around tons of germs, which is very, very bad for her.

If my mom is in an important meeting, and I call her upset about something, she will tell me to wait and she will call me back. If she's in a meeting and I called to tell her DD was taken by squad, she'd leave immediately.

I don't think many people are going to indiscriminately cater to every single one of their child's wishes. The OP already put a disclaimer about unhealthy co-dependency situations. We're talking real-life NORMAL situations where people need a family member to lean on. I'm having a hard time believing that anyone here thinks it's ridiculous for my mom will drop what she's doing to help when I'm in a bad situation. And I don't mean "bad" like I burnt dinner and need her to run and get me some fast food. I mean "bad" like my kid is in the hospital or I just left my husband.

Is it "expected" that she should do these things for me? No. But if she didn't we wouldn't have the great relationship we have now. If my DD was taken by squad and she said "Oh well I'm out shopping right now so you're on your own!" I wouldn't be close to her. That is a selfish attitude and I wouldn't want to be around her. And I certainly wouldn't be giving back to her. She'd still be my mom, but I wouldn't have any attachment to her. Knowing she cared more about shopping than her granddaughter or her daughter would pretty much fizzle out the relationship.

Thankfully she is nothing like that.









And yes, I intend to take care of her when she is old. It's a two-way relationship.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
Is it "expected" that she should do these things for me? No. But if she didn't we wouldn't have the great relationship we have now. If my DD was taken by squad and she said "Oh well I'm out shopping right now so you're on your own!" I wouldn't be close to her. That is a selfish attitude and I wouldn't want to be around her. And I certainly wouldn't be giving back to her. She'd still be my mom, but I wouldn't have any attachment to her. Knowing she cared more about shopping than her granddaughter or her daughter would pretty much fizzle out the relationship.


Exactly, is doing these sorts of things that maintain a close relationship, IMO.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
DH and I, even though we are young, already have financial plans in place to take care of us when we are old. Our DD1 will be ~60 when we're 80. It will not be her job to take care of us. Nor will it be her children's...

but who will care for you? Money will provide you with food and shelter and nurses if need be but who will care for you? who will think of you? who will visit you? Who will put up with you when you need something and can't get it yourself? not the nursing home staff....I am sure there is someone you can hire for everything but they won't care. My grandparents are in a nice nursing home. they did well for themselves and planned well. but grandpa still needed his daughter to take him around looking for the right shoes and the right windshield washer fluid. He still needs babies to read to and little hands to draw rings on. Grandma still needs to see her great grandchildren and someone to have breakfast with her. Someone to take her to the store and go grocery shopping with her. I mean she could hire someone but grocery shopping is a joy to her. a chance to get out of her home All her life she had a great friends who were a wonderful support but all their close friends are literally dead and gone (they are in their mid 90s). So now they are left to rely on family for support. Good thing they have always always been there for their kids and grandkids and great grandchildren.







They are a blessing to us and we consider it an honor to bless them. Nothing concerning them is a burden to me.

Support is about so much more than money. taking care of people needs is about so much more than what we can buy for them.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
but who will care for you? Money will provide you with food and shelter but who will care for you? who will think of you? who will visit you? Who will put up with you when you need something and can't et it yourself? not the nursing home staff.....My grandparents are in a nice nursing home. they did well for themselves and planned well. but grandpa still needed his daughter to take him around looking for the right shoes and the right windshield washer fluid. Grandma still needs top see her great grandchildren and someone to have breakfast with her. Someone to take her to the store and go grocery shopping with her. I mean she could hire someone but grocery shopping is a joy to her. a chance to get out of her home All her life she had a great friends who were a wonderful support but all their close friends are literally dead and gone (they are in their mid 90s). So now they are left to rely on family for support. Good thing they have always always been there for their kids and grandkids and great grandchildren.







They are a blessing to us and we consider it an honor to bless them. Nothing concerning them is a burden to me.

That's different. Having people to visit you and take you around when it works into their schedule is one thing. It's another thing to get angry with someone when they aren't willing and/or able to drop everything at that exact moment to take care of you.


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## BarefootScientist (Jul 24, 2007)

Well, I voted never,that I will always support my kids.

I voted that way before reading the thread, and I didn't read the other thread this one spun off either. So I might be confused. But now that I've read the thread...I guess when I read the word "support" I didn't read "be your child's only means of support", "be physically close to your child at all times", "be responsible for your child", "be expected and obligated to support", "affirm bad decisions," "say yes to every whim or request", or "drop everything for any reason even if they treat you like crap, just because you're the mom" like so many have seemed to.









I meant that I will always be available should my child need me, to the best of my ability and of course depending on the situation. I would say the same for my parents, spouse, siblings, and friends as well.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
but who will care for you? Money will provide you with food and shelter and nurses if need be but who will care for you? who will think of you? who will visit you? Who will put up with you when you need something and can't get it yourself? not the nursing home staff....I am sure there is someone you can hire for everything but they won't care. My grandparents are in a nice nursing home. they did well for themselves and planned well. but grandpa still needed his daughter to take him around looking for the right shoes and the right windshield washer fluid. He still needs babies to read to and little hands to draw rings on. Grandma still needs to see her great grandchildren and someone to have breakfast with her. Someone to take her to the store and go grocery shopping with her. I mean she could hire someone but grocery shopping is a joy to her. a chance to get out of her home All her life she had a great friends who were a wonderful support but all their close friends are literally dead and gone (they are in their mid 90s). So now they are left to rely on family for support. Good thing they have always always been there for their kids and grandkids and great grandchildren.







They are a blessing to us and we consider it an honor to bless them. Nothing concerning them is a burden to me.

Support is about so much more than money. taking care of people needs is about so much more than what we can buy for them.

Not to mention money isn't a guarantee. Having money saved up doesn't mean it will be enough. What if one parent ends up permanently and severely disabled at age 40 and the money goes towards bills because the other parent had to quit work to stay home with a completely dependent spouse? I mean, these things aren't likely to happen, but they can. I'd like to raise my kids to be generous and helpful by doing the same for them in their time of need. Even if it means putting me in a nursing home and just coming to visit 4 days a week to make sure I'm getting the best care....I'd like to think they'd take care of me in some way. Money doesn't mean squat if you are stuck in a crappy, abusive elderly home with kids who don't feel the need to check up on you because you alienated them and told them to put on their big girl panties and grow up and stop needing mom and dad.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CatsCradle* 
The issues of co-dependency aside (for adult children), I think it is terribly sad that our culture finds it perfectly acceptable to put the elderly away in assisted living so that the younger generation doesn't have to deal with them. It's like: okay, you're old now, you're a burden, its not my job to take care of you. This really hit home for me when I was a child. My sister and I used to visit nursing homes and let me tell you, although these people were taken well care of physically, they were incredibly lonely and bored. My parents will move into our one-bedroom apartment before I put them in a nursing home, even if it takes certain sacrifices on our parts. I don't think "family" is a "job." It is an extension of your own life and it is a fact of life. Not something to be patted on the back for when you actually do it and not something to check at the doorstep of independence. We complain loudly that the corporate world has devalued the concept of family, but we are actually doing it to ourselves.

I don't think nursing homes are necessarily bad. Some peolple, need the constant medical care and nursing staff they provide. Nor does everyone wish to live with their children or have their children attending to some of the more embarrassing medical needs....Sometimes living with family is the best solution for everyone, sometimes a more assisted living environment is best. My grandparents enjoy their new community quite a bit. It is a good place, it provides for all their medical needs in the comofrt of their home, provides for them a level of independance they would not have in their own home, and autonomy they would not have in their childrens home. It has also fostered some new friendships and oppritunities to be social witout driving. They are not lonely or bored there any more than when they were living in their house. They get regular visitors (and always will), attend family finctions, can come and go as they please, are only a free shuttle ride away to the senior center (which is awesome) and the gym (which has a whole team of staff includfing medical personel dedicated to seniors) and most importantly still close to family. regardless of where they live or why it is important not to forget our seniors, sick and shut ins.

and sometimes supporting someone, letting them know you value them means dropping what you are doing, rearranging your schedule, etc so that you can meet their present, pressing, need. Crisis do not always happen on my schedule. help cannot always be delivered on my schedule. things balance out though. I know people have dropped what they were doing to help me. I know I have dropped what I am doing to help people. and I know if I never did that people wouldn't do it for me. I am fortunate enough to be surrounded by people who truely don't feel put out to help in a crisis. just as I do not feel put out to help in a crisis. I actually consider it an honor when people call on me to help. That they trust me that much. It is not an I owe them since they did it for me, or they owe me because I did it for them so much as "hmmm, this is a good way to live our lives and bear each others burdens. this is love." sort of thing.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
That's different. Having people to visit you and take you around when it works into their schedule is one thing. It's another thing to get angry with someone when they aren't willing and/or able to drop everything at that exact moment to take care of you.

Again, I don't think anyone is expecting parents, or adult children, to drop everything at a moment's notice to help someone go pick out a new pair of shoes. But to provide as much help as possible in a moment of crisis? Absolutely. To take some sort of priority over trivial things in the lives of people who claim to care for you? Absolutely. Frankly, parents who won't be there when needed for their adult children can probably expect that their children might not be there for them at all in the future. If I had a mother who refused to help me when I needed help and she was able to provide it (again, barring issues of drug use, etc), I'm not sure I would feel obligated to help her go buy shoes when she's too old to drive herself. I might think, "Wow, this woman has never been there for me when I needed her my entire adult life, and now she expects me to visit her at the nursing home and take her out to lunch and to the beauty parlor? Fat chance. I'll do the bare minimum, just like she did."


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I guess I just see this from another perspective. "If she didn't come, either there was something up that was more than I was aware, or she didn't really know how bad things were." I wouldn't assume that she was just shopping for one thing. I'd assume that what she was doing had changed, or there must have been something going on that was greater than I knew. Or that she didn't know how I felt. And I'd move on and ask someone else, without getting upset that my mom hadn't dropped everything for me. I'm not going to set up some kind of situation where either my mom drops everything for me or I sit and pick apart her reasons for not coming and decide if I think they were valid. If she can come, then great, but if she can't then I need to move on with things.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

I apologize to the posters above if I sounded judgmental about nursing homes and assisted living as an alternative for elder care. That wasn't my intent at all. I just remember having my great grandparents and grandparents close by...even living in the house...and no one batted an eye. It was the norm and an accepted fact of life. I just don't know how we've moved so far away from that (including myself). I doubt if things were always loving and peachy in those days...but I think the sense of family and familial responsibilities had a much larger scope, and even extended to close family friends. Like someone said above, there was a greater sense of community and people valued close ties. This is still the practice in many cultures today. My mom and I were just saying the other day how we used to go over to neighbors' houses and we didn't even call beforehand. Now (at least in my circles), you have to call first, make play dates, schedule far in advance. Are we that busy and preoccupied?


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
Not to mention money isn't a guarantee. Having money saved up doesn't mean it will be enough. What if one parent ends up permanently and severely disabled at age 40 and the money goes towards bills because the other parent had to quit work to stay home with a completely dependent spouse? I mean, these things aren't likely to happen, but they can. I'd like to raise my kids to be generous and helpful by doing the same for them in their time of need. Even if it means putting me in a nursing home and just coming to visit 4 days a week to make sure I'm getting the best care...

My dad became permanently disabled at the age of 60. Mom is only 56. One day, back in June, Dad had a heart attack at work, hit his head on something which caused a bleed, and then proceeded to have a stroke a few hours later in the ER.

5 months later, he's in a nursing home. He's awake and alert, but can't talk and doesn't have much movement in his extremities. He has a tracheostomy, has COPD, a feeding tube and is on supplemental oxygen at night. He communicates mostly through facial expressions.

None of us are really equipped to provide the level of care that Dad needs at home, as much as we would like to bring him home. The nursing home is the next best thing. The facility he's in is close to home, and they're taking great care of him.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
but who will care for you? Money will provide you with food and shelter and nurses if need be but who will care for you? who will think of you? who will visit you?......Good thing they have always always been there for their kids and grandkids and great grandchildren.









here in lies the rub -- if you believe that you should always be able to jump in and be there for your children, then you are NOT raising adults who will be able to be there for you when you need help.

Once our offspring are adults, they really shouldn't need us any more than we need them. Everyone needs a hand from time to time, but that should be a two way street once kids are grown.

Some of the attitudes on this thread about work and responsiblity are just bizarre to me. It's like people really don't want their kids to grow into functional adults.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

but we all have needs. i don't see where the virtue is in not asking for help every now and then or going somewhere besides your family for help.

I think there will come a time when my children and I need each other equally. and I know there will come a time when I need them more than they need me. i should hope I have raised them well enough that they would step up. Its not that I care so much for my needs but I would be ashamed if I did not raise them better than that. or if they ever turned their back on someone who needed them right then in a crisis situation.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

There's no problem in asking for help. The problems, as I see them, are:

1. Assuming the worst possible intentions when someone doesn't help you. Maybe something else happened and she was truly unable. Things change.

2. Only having one place to go to if there's a problem. If one person can't help, try someone else.

I think, without those two things in place, there is the potential for an unhealthy, dysfunctional relationship.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
here in lies the rub -- if you believe that you should always be able to jump in and be there for your children, then you are NOT raising adults who will be able to be there for you when you need help.

Once our offspring are adults, they really shouldn't need us any more than we need them. Everyone needs a hand from time to time, but that should be a two way street once kids are grown.

Some of the attitudes on this thread about work and responsiblity are just bizarre to me. It's like people really don't want their kids to grow into functional adults.

I don't think anyone here that thinks a parent should help out their kids in times of need doesn't expect that adult children should do the same for their parents.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
There's no problem in asking for help. The problems, as I see them, are:

1. Assuming the worst possible intentions when someone doesn't help you. Maybe something else happened and she was truly unable. Things change.

2. Only having one place to go to if there's a problem. If one person can't help, try someone else.

I think, without those two things in place, there is the potential for an unhealthy, dysfunctional relationship.

1) I'm not sure where you are getting that people who think a parent who is unable to help are awful people. I do think that chosing not to help when you don't have a good reason is pretty crappy. And if you have a good reason, that's something that should be conveyed to the person that needs help.

2) Sometimes people are in situations where their family is the only one they can turn to. It happens. Generally it doesn't happen for someone's entire life, but in times of great need, support systems tend to break down. That's when famliy becomes even more important.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

So where does that leave people? If our moms don't drop everything for us, without giving an answer that we should get to hear and determine if we think the answer is good enough, our moms are bad moms. And they should feel awful! This leads to all kinds of dysfunction. People should give themselves freely. If they don't, we need to let it go. It doesn't provide anything for us to feel bad because our moms don't give themselves freely. If they do give themselves freely, then we can appreciate that. But to either expect our moms to be obligated at any time for us, and have all moms have this guilt cloud over their heads about whether they are able of determining well enough how badly we need them, and then whether their reasons for not being able to help are good enough or not, is just not healthy.

I try to manage things myself. If I think I could use help, I call someone. If that person can't come, I don't worry about why or if that person has a "good enough" reason, or if that person is selfish or really cares about me, because that doesn't give me anything. The most it will do is build resentment and guilt and expectations between me and that person. I move on to the next person. I don't put my relationship with anyone in a position where it will be damaged if she doesn't come to me and I don't think her reason is good enough for me. As if I can know everything that's going on in someone else's life to really understand everything behind their reasons, or as if they can or should have to communicate that with me. I can trust or I can not trust that I'm cared for and that the person is doing their best. I don't need to put the person on trial.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
but who will care for you? Money will provide you with food and shelter and nurses if need be but who will care for you? who will think of you? who will visit you? Who will put up with you when you need something and can't get it yourself?

I think that relationships go both ways.

I _hope_ that I have a good enough relationship with my children that they will do those things. I hope that I raise them in such a way that they want to spend time with me later, just I hope they are people who I want to spend time with.

But I hold no illusions that those things will be a given. It is quite possible that one, or more, of my children and I will not have that kind of relationship. Not everyone is compatible with everyone else. I hope it doesn't happen, but we may grow apart. One of the families I knew growing up who actually practiced AP had that happen. There were 4 kids. 3 still have active meaningful relationships with their parents, the 4th moved out once she was financially able and visits once every year or so at Christmas.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
Not to mention money isn't a guarantee. Having money saved up doesn't mean it will be enough. What if one parent ends up permanently and severely disabled at age 40 and the money goes towards bills because the other parent had to quit work to stay home with a completely dependent spouse? I mean, these things aren't likely to happen, but they can. I'd like to raise my kids to be generous and helpful by doing the same for them in their time of need. Even if it means putting me in a nursing home and just coming to visit 4 days a week to make sure I'm getting the best care....I'd like to think they'd take care of me in some way. Money doesn't mean squat if you are stuck in a crappy, abusive elderly home with kids who don't feel the need to check up on you because you alienated them and told them to put on their big girl panties and grow up and stop needing mom and dad.

It's called "Long Term Disability" insurance. We have LTD for DH at his job. The career I'm working towards (after this baby comes) will also come with LTD. If DH lost his job we would qualify for LTD through our insurance company. We have short term disability (2 years) on our mortgage.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
Really? I wouldn't. And not because I don't love my daughter.







I think being able to live without working is a dangerous privilege even for people who have earned it by their own hard work; but potentially character-crushing for kids who were born into that privilege. I don't want comfort for my daughter more than I want her to learn responsibility, the merits of hard work, the situation 99% of the world has to deal with.

Which is not to say I'm going to chuck her in a sweatshop at the age of ten or anything. But yeah... no. It'll be a minor miracle if DH and I end up fabulously wealthy, but if we did I'd want that to be something we used to enrich her life and teach her, not to let her opt out of a VERY vital and meaningful part of life - that of earning one's daily bread.

Yes, really. I feel like there is so much more I could accomplish -- as a mother, a partner, and a citizen of the world -- if I didn't have to devote 30 hours a week to a paying job. I wouldn't let my kids get away with a completely free ride -- I would expect them to be highly contributing members of society, enriching their own lives and their families' lives, as well as volunteering/working for good causes, but I would be happy to allow them the freedom from needing to work for an income.


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

I said other because I think it depends on the situation. For the most part, I can't see an arbitrary cut-off, but I will encourage financial independence and may not "bail them out" of every mess once they're in college or older.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
My problem is the expectation people seem to have that a mother would drop everything simply because she's the "mother".

Well then I'm totally lost. Between this thread and the other one, you've taken issue with the expectations of adults, saying such things like having to "suck it up", "stand on your own two feet", and showing such a "break down of control". To me that doesn't read like someone taking issue with WHO they are asking for help, but the fact that they ARE asking for help.

Quote:

*You're an adult.* While it would be "nice" for your mom to drop everything and come get your kids, it's neither her job nor responsibility.

Quote:

*I do think that part of being an adult*is holding it together until you have someone come and take the kids.

Quote:

I do think that *one of the parts of adulthood* is being able to hold it together when you need to.

Quote:

Also, sometimes adults don't get the luxury of giving into our emotions the moment we feel like it. That is part of being a grown up. *You do need to suck it up and wait* for an appropriate time.

Quote:

Part of being an adult is learning to stand on your own 2 feet.

Quote:

Part of being an adult is having control over one's emotions.

Quote:

I probably am dismissive of adults crying. It is such a breakdown of control.

Quote:

I think that adults should have the level of control to keep it together until they have support in place.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessy1019* 
Yes, really. I feel like there is so much more I could accomplish -- as a mother, a partner, and a citizen of the world -- if I didn't have to devote 30 hours a week to a paying job. I wouldn't let my kids get away with a completely free ride -- I *would expect them to be highly contributing members of society*, enriching their own lives and their families' lives, as well as volunteering/working for good causes, but I would be happy to allow them the freedom from needing to work for an income.

Which would leave you in the parent role forever -- constantly getting to decide if they were doing enough to keep you happy or if you should cut them off. It's a set up for disfunction.

I really like the amount of money that my DH and I have for the sake of our kids. We can help them get good educations -- all the way through grad school if they want. But we cannot support them forever. Eventually, they have to figure out their own lives.

I think that's the crux of what this thread is about -- it's not about whether or not all adults need a little extra help from time to time, but it's about whether or not you see yourself staying in your role of Parent to your Child for all their lives. I don't. I see my offspring becoming adults who are not children. I don't plan on *parenting* them forever.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
Which would leave you in the parent role forever -- constantly getting to decide if they were doing enough to keep you happy or if you should cut them off. It's a set up for disfunction.


I disagree. I give my friends money periodically, if they need it for a reason that seems good to me -- sometimes that's bus fare to get to work for a week before payday, sometimes it's to buy xmas presents for their kids, sometimes it's because they are just having a really rough time and I can afford to make their lives easier. That doesn't mean I'm parenting them -- just choosing where to spend the extra money I'm fortunate enough to have.

If my kid has the great ambition to do something really valuable with his or her life, and I can afford to do it, you can bet your ass I'm going to finance it. That's not parenting -- that's just contributing to the betterment of the world, as far as I'm concerned.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
I think that's the crux of what this thread is about -- it's not about whether or not all adults need a little extra help from time to time, but it's about whether or not you see yourself staying in your role of Parent to your Child for all their lives. I don't. I see my offspring becoming adults who are not children. I don't plan on *parenting* them forever.


If you look at the poll results, I think you'll find that the majority here feel that being available for your adult children is the norm. That does not mean we'll all be raising dependent, irresponsible, immature adults who cannot cope in society. I daresay that most of us will raise responsible, productive members of society who will go on to have families of their own. However, for us, that also means that we know that the door is open for mutual support. Maybe Mom has a crisis and needs her daughter to help out with some things for a while. Maybe grandpa falls and breaks an ankle and needs to move in with his grandson for a few weeks. Or maybe grown daughter gets fired and in the same week finds out her husband cheated on her, and has a mini breakdown, needs her mom and reaches out.

THAT is support and what family is for. That is all examples with different generations and isn't it wonderful when the family dynamic is such that it works out so well. It is not about "parenting them forever" and I really have no idea where that came from.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Well then I'm totally lost. Between this thread and the other one, you've taken issue with the expectations of adults, saying such things like having to "suck it up", "stand on your own two feet", and showing such a "break down of control". To me that doesn't read like someone taking issue with WHO they are asking for help, but the fact that they ARE asking for help.


Then you have misunderstood.

There are 2 issues at play.

1) I don't think an adult has the luxury of breaking down until they have made arrangements to take care of their children. That's true. I do think that adult should be able to keep going 1 step at a time until they are in a situation where it's OK, by whatever rules they want to play by, for them to let loose.

2) I don't think that arbitrary family ties mean that 1 adult is obligated to do things for another. I think that depends on the relationship and how that plays out. I think that once a child reaches adult hood they need to put effort into the relationship if they want it to continue. The OP of the other thread made it clear in one of her updates that she does not have such a relationship with her mother. Which just confuses me as to why she was upset that her mother didn't come to her immediately.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I couldn't vote -- there are too many variables at play. If they were responsible adults who got in a bind, sure, I'd be there in a heartbeat. If they continually made terrible decisions or if I felt like they were using me and all I was doing was contributing to dysfunction, then I'd probably be practicing tough love.

My own mother is a good example of both -- my brother and I are responsible people who do our best for our families but occasionally need help, and she never hesitates for a second to help us, and does so willingly and joyfully. My mom's sister, on the other hand (who is much younger than my mom and who she essentially raised), is very irresponsible and doesn't do anything to advance her situation except stick out her hand, and my mom is very frustrated with her and resents the help she's expected to provide in a way that she's never for a second resented me or my brother.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
Then you have misunderstood.

Clearly.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

my dh has a fantastic relationship with his parents, who raised him doing lots of ap stuff.
right now, he and his dad are downstairs installing a new microwave together in our kitchen.
his da does lots of stuff to help him, yet my dh has done very well on his own, managing money, running a business, etc. the ap never has seemed to stop and it doesn't seem to be anything anyone thinks about. it flows both ways, though, for example, dh will help cut down trees and chop wood for da, etc.
i think it's just what it means to be a solid family. dh never had issues with needing "bailing out" from his family -- which i think is the goal of ap anyway. he's been an independent adult since he's been an adult, yet there is lots of "help" with needs, etc. when the occasion arises/ and dh gives as much as he gets.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hildare* 
and dh gives as much as he gets.

And I think that's key. That means there's a real relationship going. That's my goal as well.


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## Swirly (May 20, 2006)

My hope and dream is that I will be able to continue giving my daughter support as she needs throughout her life, while allowing her to gain her full "adulthood" and be able to be her own person.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
I couldn't vote -- there are too many variables at play. If they were responsible adults who got in a bind, sure, I'd be there in a heartbeat. If they continually made terrible decisions or if I felt like they were using me and all I was doing was contributing to dysfunction, then I'd probably be practicing tough love.

My own mother is a good example of both -- my brother and I are responsible people who do our best for our families but occasionally need help, and she never hesitates for a second to help us, and does so willingly and joyfully. My mom's sister, on the other hand (who is much younger than my mom and who she essentially raised), is very irresponsible and doesn't do anything to advance her situation except stick out her hand, and my mom is very frustrated with her and resents the help she's expected to provide in a way that she's never for a second resented me or my brother.

I thought I made it clear in my OP that we are NOT talking about enabling or any kind of using sitch. I'd think that most of us have the goal of wanting to raise healthy, well adjusted, functioning adults.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hildare* 
my dh has a fantastic relationship with his parents, who raised him doing lots of ap stuff.
right now, he and his dad are downstairs installing a new microwave together in our kitchen.
his da does lots of stuff to help him, yet my dh has done very well on his own, managing money, running a business, etc. the ap never has seemed to stop and it doesn't seem to be anything anyone thinks about. it flows both ways, though, for example, dh will help cut down trees and chop wood for da, etc.
i think it's just what it means to be a solid family. dh never had issues with needing "bailing out" from his family -- which i think is the goal of ap anyway. he's been an independent adult since he's been an adult, yet there is lots of "help" with needs, etc. when the occasion arises/ and dh gives as much as he gets.

THIS exactly. I don't think it's that hard to understand. Your DH, I'm sure, is able to stand on his own 2 feet, has coping skills, etc. right?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
And I think that's key. That means there's a real relationship going. That's my goal as well.

Where did anyone say there wasn't a real relationship going? I'm not sure I'm quite getting your mindset.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swirly* 
My hope and dream is that I will be able to continue giving my daughter support as she needs throughout her life, while allowing her to gain her full "adulthood" and be able to be her own person.

Yes. YES! It's so simple







! This is what most of us want and are tring to say.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Latte Mama* 
I thought I made it clear in my OP that we are NOT talking about enabling or any kind of using sitch. I'd think that most of us have the goal of wanting to raise healthy, well adjusted, functioning adults.

Okay. My answer is still "it depends," though. I'll support my kids always, within reason and within my abilities. There's no age or life situation that would make my answer be yes or no, it would just depend on all the circumstances (my kids' and my own) combined.

And like with my own very supportive, loving mother who does as much as she can (which is a lot!) but also has her own (reasonable, IMO) limitations, I'll hope that my kids have compassion for where I'm coming from too and aren't quick to write me off as selfish or uncaring during the rare times when I'm unable to provide immediate assistance.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Latte Mama* 
I thought I made it clear in my OP that we are NOT talking about enabling or any kind of using sitch. I'd think that most of us have the goal of wanting to raise healthy, well adjusted, functioning adults.

this is the most popular option: "-child can get any kind of help from me, financial,emotional,etc"

That's already not true in our house, and my oldest is only 13. My kids want more money and one wants more emotional support than is reasonable. I feel, based on my experience with my offspring, that saying "I have confidence taht you can deal with that yourself" is appropriate at times. I feel that, depending on the situation, saying "no" is the best parenting.

I do not believe that "-child can get any kind of help from me, financial,emotional,etc" is the best way to end up with well adjusted, functioning adults. I'm sure the child's temperment makes a big difference.

Just for the record, my kids co-slept forever, tandem nursed, were carried in slings, have only ever experienced gentle discpline, and spent most of their childhoods homeschooling in a relaxed way. My AP creditials are very solid.







None the less, my kids' concept of a crises they need me to help them with and my concept of a crises they need me to help them with aren't always the same.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
this is the most popular option: "-child can get any kind of help from me, financial,emotional,etc"

That's already not true in our house, and my oldest is only 13. My kids want more money and one wants more emotional support than is reasonable. I feel, based on my experience with my offspring, that saying "I have confidence taht you can deal with that yourself" is appropriate at times. I feel that, depending on the situation, saying "no" is the best parenting.

I do not believe that "-child can get any kind of help from me, financial,emotional,etc" is the best way to end up with well adjusted, functioning adults. I'm sure the child's temperment makes a big difference.

Just for the record, my kids co-slept forever, tandem nursed, were carried in slings, have only ever experienced gentle discpline, and spent most of their childhoods homeschooling in a relaxed way. My AP creditials are very solid.







None the less, my kids' concept of a crises they need me to help them with and my concept of a crises they need me to help them with aren't always the same.

I don't think the poll option would have let me write out a long winded answer. I think that most of us undertood the response does not mean when our 25 year old wants to quit their great career, traipse around Europe that we'll finance it by selling our house because we can't say no.

It means that if that 25 year old wants to travel Europe that we discuss it with them, make sure they have a good, solid plan in place and tell them to go for their dream!

I'm certainly not advocating giving an adult child unlimited supply of financial and emotional support at anytime for anything because they can't do anything for themself. However, my child and I will hopefully have the type of relationship where he is confident, secure, yet able to come to me for help if need be.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
this is the most popular option: "-child can get any kind of help from me, financial,emotional,etc"

That's already not true in our house, and my oldest is only 13. My kids want more money and one wants more emotional support than is reasonable. I feel, based on my experience with my offspring, that saying "I have confidence taht you can deal with that yourself" is appropriate at times. I feel that, depending on the situation, saying "no" is the best parenting.

I do not believe that "-child can get any kind of help from me, financial,emotional,etc" is the best way to end up with well adjusted, functioning adults. I'm sure the child's temperment makes a big difference.

Just for the record, my kids co-slept forever, tandem nursed, were carried in slings, have only ever experienced gentle discpline, and spent most of their childhoods homeschooling in a relaxed way. My AP creditials are very solid.







None the less, my kids' concept of a crises they need me to help them with and my concept of a crises they need me to help them with aren't always the same.


Thank you for this post.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Latte Mama* 
It means that if that 25 year old wants to travel Europe that we discuss it with them, *make sure they have a good, solid plan in place* and tell them to go for their dream!

I don't expect to be checking that my 25 year old has a plan in place anymore than I would expect them to check that I have a plan in place before a trip. I just don't see my 25 year old asking for my permission for anything. By then, either I've done my job of teaching them to have a plan or I haven't.

If you were going to do something and your parent wanted to make sure that you had a plan, and then felt they could judge if the plan was solid, and then would tell you to go for it or not, would you like that? Wouldn't you find it a little insulting?

To my mind, that's not how adults talk to other adults who they see as equals.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
I don't expect to be checking that my 25 year old has a plan in place anymore than I would expect them to check that I have a plan in place before a trip. I just don't see my 25 year old asking for my permission for anything. By then, either I've done my job of teaching them to have a plan or I haven't.

If you were going to do something and your parent wanted to make sure that you had a plan, and then felt they could judge if the plan was solid, and then would tell you to go for it or not, would you like that? Wouldn't you find it a little insulting?

To my mind, that's not how adults talk to other adults who they see as equals.

ITA.

By the age of 25 I had gotten married and had a kid. I'd been on 3 major trips (1 before getting married, 2 after) and I didn't check anything with my parents.

My parents were interested in my plans. But they had no say over them in any way shape or form.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
I don't expect to be checking that my 25 year old has a plan in place anymore than I would expect them to check that I have a plan in place before a trip. I just don't see my 25 year old asking for my permission for anything. By then, either I've done my job of teaching them to have a plan or I haven't.

If you were going to do something and your parent wanted to make sure that you had a plan, and then felt they could judge if the plan was solid, and then would tell you to go for it or not, would you like that? Wouldn't you find it a little insulting?

To my mind, that's not how adults talk to other adults who they see as equals.

I agree. It's only supportive if the grown-up child _wants_ that level of involvement; otherwise it's intrusive, IMO. My MIL used to be like that sometimes -- we would casually mention that we were thinking about getting a new area rug or something, and she would spend whole weekends going around to 15 stores pricing out rugs and bring us a bunch of ads/coupons/pictures of everything she found. I thought it was really weird, but it was all done under the guise of "helping." I quickly learned to share information like that with her _after_ we had already done it, because somehow she interpreted any mention of anything as a request for help, and it was just awkward and sent a message, however unintentional, that she didn't trust us to handle it on our own.


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## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

Never-child can get any kind of help from me, financial,emotional,etc that I am able to give (we have a history of being pretty poor). I want my children to know that when they call me for help I will get there as soon as I can to help them or at least help them over the phone. If my children ask me for money, I will give them as much as I can give. If my children want to live at home with DH and I, of course I will let them. Granted, as they age the relationship will grow and we will all learn to support one another. Living in Japan has shown me how well this seems to work. Families live together (we are friends with one family who all live in the same house: great grandma, grandparents, parents, and children), help each other, care for one another, and we love how this works. When my friend was dying of cancer, everyone took care of her children and it wasn't a big shift from their regular routine since they all lived together anyway (yes, they were sad about their mom, but I think they were able to move on a little better knowing they had this large support system). I really want this for my family. I want us all to try and live near each other (if not in the same house) and I want us all to take care of one another financially and emotionally. I'm not sure it will happen, but it's nice living in a culture where this is the norm and my children see this and comment about how nice it is.


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