# I warned him and I warned him...how could I have done it better? LONG



## coopnwhitsmommy (Jan 13, 2005)

DS1 who is four had his checkup today...errr yesterday. When it was over he went with the nurse to pick out a sticker while I talked with the Dr.

He comes back with the sticker and a chiclet







: He was starting to open it when I asked him to wait until after lunch and to give it to me. Well he backed away and tried to hide the gum...Well that just ain't gonna fly so I reached out and grabbed it before he could hurridly finish unwraping it and put it in his mouth. He may not know what gum is but he sure does know that it looks like candy, smells like candy, and must be good.

I told him that he could have it after lunch (but only if he remembered







)

All the way out of the Dr.'s office "Momma I want the gum I want the gum" and me telling him "You can have it after lunch if you still want it"

All the way out to the car. "Momma I want the gum I want the gum" and me "You can have it after lunch if you still want it"

20 minutes down the road on the way to the hospital he was still whining and crying "Momma I want the gum I want the gum" So I told him.
walking in the hospital for blood work "Momma I want the gum I want the gum" And me still/again "You can have it after lunch if you still want it"

and "You need to stop whining and asking me about the gum, it is not up for discussion"

In the elevator "Momma I want the gum I want the gum" On the second floor "Momma I want the gum I want the gum" In the lab waiting room "Momma I want the gum I want the gum"

So I said "if you whine for the gum again I will throw it away and you won't have it at all"

And I bet you can guess what happened next "Momma I want the gum I want the gum PLEASE can I have the gum Momma PLEASE PLEEEEEEEAAASSSSE"

And me Standing up now I said "I told you, you could have it after lunch, I asked you nicely several times to stop whining about the gum, I told you if you kept asking I would throw it away, You keep asking so now I am going to throw the gum away." I walked over to the trash can showed him the gum and dropped it in "now the gum is gone because you did not do as Momma asked and stop asking and whining about the gum, now you don't get any gum"

Oh my you'd think the world was ending Several minutes of crying and stricking out at me (I was holding sleeping baby brother) followed by rolling around on the floor kicking and screaming and me not really able to stop him because there was no place to lay down the baby. Until a woman took pity on me and offered to hold DS2 while I took care of DS1.

I had just gotten him calmed down to sobs and huffs when the Nurse called him back for blood work it took 5 full grown women to hold him down to draw 3 vials of blood.









I feel like I handled this poorly...I've been a bit of a grumpy butt lately I feel maybe I was being inflexable.

On the other hand I wasn't expecting him to continue begging for nearly and hour and then throw a temper tantrum either.

I don't think I was being unreasonable to ask him to wait until after lunch. I don't think I was being unreasonable to ask him to stop whining and begging. I am not in the habit of giving in to my kids when they behave poorly I feel that sets a bad precedent.

how could i have handled this better?


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## NocturnalDaze (Jul 3, 2002)

Honestly, I would have given him the gum in the first place. I don't think it would have ruined his appetite to have it. By witholding the gum, which I'm sure he was very excited about, it ended up getting turned into a power trip over something that really wasn't a big deal.

Just my .02


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## coopnwhitsmommy (Jan 13, 2005)

I do not allow my children to have candy often...he had never had gum before. I wasn't worried about it spoiling his appetite, I didn't want him to be chewing it in the car and me not able to supervise in case of choking or if he decided to spit it out and it was implanted into the car upholstery under the carseat, or into the carpet. Since Lunch was going to be on the go, I thought after lunch at the grocery store with him in the cart less than 2feet away from me would be the best time to be able to supervise him.

Honestly if the nurse had asked me if he could have a peice of gum I would have said no.


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## Rico'sAlice (Mar 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *coopnwhitsmommy*
Honestly if the nurse had asked me if he could have a peice of gum I would have said no.

Then that probably would have been a good place to start. I know you can't always predict what's going to happen, but it seems like that may be the step to focus on for next time. I'll admit I don't have children, but I work with someone (young adult w/ severe special needs) who can not have sugar, but can not understand that. So anytime we are at a store, bank, party, etc where they might be offered something like that I just have to stay on alert, warn people not to give them Anything w/o speaking with me first, etc. Also, I normally try to keep a high value, but "approved", item in my purse to "trade" in case they are are given candy or something.


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## NocturnalDaze (Jul 3, 2002)

In that case I would have explained my fears to him. "I'm sorry honey, gum can be dangerous. You could swallow it and choke. If that happens while we are in the car I won't be able to help you."

Actually, my dd is 4 and I haven't given her gum yet because I'm afraid she'll choke. I've explained why and when she's looking over the candy rack and unknowingly chooses gum I just have to tell her that it's gum and she puts it right back.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oceansummer*
Honestly, I would have given him the gum in the first place. I don't think it would have ruined his appetite to have it. By witholding the gum, which I'm sure he was very excited about, it ended up getting turned into a power trip over something that really wasn't a big deal.

Just my .02

Ditto. Since it was a rare occasion I would have just let him have it and avoided the struggle. I can understand not wanting it in the car so I probably would have said when we get to "whatever the destination was" and the whining would have only lasted however long it took to drive there, lol.


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

i would have told him he doesnt like gum (my ds is 4) and asked him to put it back and pick something else. That typically works with things I dont allow the kids to have like soda and gum and fruit snacks. Furthermore if I explained to my son that he could choke on gum and so he is not old enough to have it, it wouldnt have been a case of "mom is being mean". It would have been "mom says its not safe".


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oceansummer*
In that case I would have explained my fears to him. "I'm sorry honey, gum can be dangerous. You could swallow it and choke. If that happens while we are in the car I won't be able to help you."

I too think he deserved an explanation. It might not have stopped the pleading/whining but that is not the point.

I would also not have made his getting it later dependant on his "remembering to ask for it" since this probably only increased his obsession for it. Instead, I would have assured him that I would remember.


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## coopnwhitsmommy (Jan 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I too think he deserved an explanation. It might not have stopped the pleading/whining but that is not the point.

I would also not have made his getting it later dependant on his "remembering to ask for it" since this probably only increased his obsession for it. Instead, I would have assured him that I would remember.

I didn't tell him that he needed to remember to ask for it...that was an aside strictly for ya'll hence the


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Oceansummer said:


> In that case I would have explained my fears to him. "I'm sorry honey, gum can be dangerous. You could swallow it and choke. If that happens while we are in the car I won't be able to help you."
> QUOTE]
> Yep, that's what I would have done. (Well, I would have given him the gum at the dentist office, but I understand why you might not want to do that.) Then I would have given it to him when you stopped to get his blood drawn. I mean first the dentist and then a blood draw - the kid deserved a special treat after that!
> 
> ...


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

If the gum were a safety issue I would offer him something better to trade it for from the nurse' station...

If gum were the only option, I'd either: offer to trade it for a promised treat right after we left (go get an ice cream or something)....or....

...bite the chicklet in 1/4ths or something so small he couldn't choke or hurt himself if he swallowed it. Then as he chewed each piece and spat it out he could get the next tiny 1/4 piece...that way he would get the whole thing but safely.

He was probably so scared and tense in the doctors office...

I just think it is so important to avoid these kinds of emotional power struggles. You wind up losing perspective. When I realize I am being "set in my way" and stubborn towards my child I force myself to examine my feelings and find another way to express what I need. Not easy, but practice DOES make this easier. Having that "set in stone" attitude towards him just does not feel right to me. Plus I think he knows it when I stop really living in the moment *with* him, and it forces him to "up the ante" right back. I'm giving him no choice but to become more and more hysterical and single minded when I shut him out.

Try to put yourself in his position and imagine how terrible you would feel
if your entire focus, a piece of gum, were being withheld from you during a stressful situation, and then put in the trash before your eyes. These little things are so important to children. YOU know there is more gum in the world but he does not understand. To him, right then, that was probably the most valuable thing in the world, and it came between you, rather than bringing you together. So I would focus next time on seeing it through his eyes and finding ways to help him enjoy the treat safely.

Life is full of unexpected candy offers...I've found trading something questionable for something appropriate is a concept ds can understand. For example when a stranger gives him candy I'd rather he not eat, he accepts that limitation because I offer him something acceptable, and he listens and learns my reasons in the process. I think just saying "nope, the candy is dirty!" and taking it out of his hands with finality feels rude and disrespectful. Yes he is my child and I have to keep him safe, but it wasn't my candy, and I need to acknowledge that ds was given it, not me, and offering an acceptable substitute just feels logical and true. He still gets something he wants, I have kept him safe, and we are on the same side as we do that.

It just sounds like a very difficult day for him all around. Maybe from this you will be able to spot the "little things of great importance" and next time share it with him? Best of luck!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I also feel loads better when I apologize after a scene like that. "Look, I'm so sorry I threw away the gum earlier. I think that was rude and wrong of me. I feel really sad I did that. I make mistakes too. I bet it really hurt your feelings, huh?"

I'd probably offer to do something fun right now, just to re establish a good vibe.

I guess my point is that while that was a very upsetting scene over the gum, you can still try to make talk it over and move forward.

Best of luck to you...


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## auntieM (Apr 14, 2004)

I don't think that you were being unreasonable either. It sounds like it was important to you that he not have the gum. If you had just said later, rather than after lunch, you would have had an out for yourself when the situation turned yucky. I like all of the ideas for explaining why it wasn't an option.

The big bummer of it all is the blood draw. Without it, this would have been just another time when your child begged you for something that you felt wasn't appropriate at the time. If you have a choice, next time go back for the blood draw when the mood is better.

I am sorry that you went through this. It must have been traumatic for you both.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

My ds chews gum for a couple minutes tops before wanting to spit it out, not that your ds would be the same. I try really hard not to get in power struggles, in general, but even more so if something upsetting is happening, like the blood draw. So I would have given ds the gum right away, but if I was concerned, I would have explained and told him when we got out of the car and offered something else while he was waiting (I usually have a fruit leather or some treat in my bag at such times, not as a bribe, but as a distraction/mood booster).


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## 2Sweeties1Angel (Jan 30, 2006)

I don't allow gum or candy period, so I would have been extremely pissed at the nurse for giving it to him in the first place. Why in the Hell are they handing out that kind of garbage at a doctor's office anyway?


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

I don't think most parents realize how much little things like this mean to kids. I would've explained to him that it's not safe to eat while in the car, but as soon as we got back out of the car, he could have it again. I would not have thrown it away at all.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Personally, I think you were doing OK til the threat--stop whining or no gum. Right there, you set yourself up for disaster.As soon you did that, it was no longer about him wanting the gum, it was about you wanting quiet. I agree an explanation would have probably made things easier, but the gum was a "reward" for going to the doc's. It doesn't seem right that a reward can then be taken away.


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## tracilicious (Oct 5, 2004)

I'm sorry, but I do think you were being unreasonable. The chances of something really bad happening because a child has a piece of gum are really slim. I also think the situation would have gone a lot better if you had validated his feelings instead of ordering him to stop whining. "I can see that you really really want that gum. Let's hurry and get this over with so we can get some lunch and you can have it!" I also would have not allowed him to be pinned down for a blood draw unless his life depended on it.

We all have moments of unreasonableness, though. I would just apologize and move on.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I'm sorry you had such a horrendous day. I've had days like this. Afterwards, it's easy to look back and pick apart your decisions and your behavior. Its easy to see places you could have done something different. Its easy for other parents to point out where things went wrong. BUT -- when as a parent are in the middle of an experience like that, it is very easy to loose perspective and contribute to a mess and not be able to get yourself out of it again. I have been there many times over.

It was wrong for the nurse to give your son gum. You could call the dr's office or write a friendly note and ask them not to give out eatible treats without asking the parent's first. It's entirely reasonable. They set you up for a bad time. Gum in particular is a problem. They should know better. Especially gum with sugar. Yuck!

Some options for next time. You could say:

- "We don't eat this kind of gum. I will trade it for a different treat when we get home."
- "This is a new kind of candy and I want to help you try it the first time. Lets save it for home."
- "I'm sorry, but we don't take food from people. We have our own treats at home."

With the persistant nagging -- ITA that threatening to throw it away was a set up for disaster. You already know he wasn't doing a good job resisting the impulse to nag and bed. And facing the blood tests was a stressful thing. Stress detracts from a kid's ability to exersize self-control. I might have tried making silly jokes and goofy remarks about his ability to drive you crazy with his persistance. Or think of something *you* really want and ask him 50 thousand times. "Can I have a new car? Please can I have a new car? I really really really want a new car!" Until he is giggling.

But like I said -- its easy to think of things after the fact. If I were you -- I'd chalk it up to a bad day and a learning experience. Did you go for a treat after the bloodwork?


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## Bufomander (Feb 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tracilicious*
I also would have not allowed him to be pinned down for a blood draw unless his life depended on it.

We all have moments of unreasonableness, though. I would just apologize and move on.

As someone who is still trying to work out her relationship to Westernized medicine, especially with regard to my child, I'm just wondering what you _would_ have done -- not had the blood drawn, gone back a different day, etc.... Thanks for helping me keep thinking about situations like this in advance! It was a hard few minutes at the WIC office this morning when dd didn't want to be weighed -- i really wanted to tell them it was silly-- she'd just been weighed on Monday at the dr's and I wish I'd followed my gut.


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## coopnwhitsmommy (Jan 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tracilicious*
I also would have not allowed him to be pinned down for a blood draw unless his life depended on it.


It was a situation that had time constraints with it. We had to be at the hospital at a certain time so that the blood could be picked up ASAP for transport to the University of Michigan for genetic testing. We were told that the blood must be processed at UofM within 24hours of the draw. Having limited amount of time in life that was the only time period available...unfortunate that he was having a melt down at the same time but...what are you gonna do?


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## tracilicious (Oct 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bufomander*
As someone who is still trying to work out her relationship to Westernized medicine, especially with regard to my child, I'm just wondering what you _would_ have done -- not had the blood drawn, gone back a different day, etc.... Thanks for helping me keep thinking about situations like this in advance! It was a hard few minutes at the WIC office this morning when dd didn't want to be weighed -- i really wanted to tell them it was silly-- she'd just been weighed on Monday at the dr's and I wish I'd followed my gut.


This is hard for me too. I don't have a ton to do with Western medicine either. I guess it would depend on what it was for. If there cancer or something horrible was suspected, I would definitely find a way to make it work. If it was just routine, I would skip it.

In a situation where I really wanted it done, I think this is what I would do. I would explain ahead of time why it needed to be done and what would happen. If the child seemed fearful or reluctant then I think I would bring a cool new toy, a piece of candy, something really interesting and new to look at, a favorite teddy bear, etc., to use to distract him with while it was being done. I would start the distraction after they put the rubber arm tie on. If they seemed more interested than anxious I would still bring a lovie and explain everything as it happened, what would happen next, etc.

The tricky part is the person doing the draw. Some people are excellent, some are not. If you get a person that just wants to do it quickly and get you out, ask for someone else. Trust your gut. There are a lot of bullies in Western medicine and it takes some backbone to stand up for yourself and your child.

In the case of a big upset happening right before, I would definitely reschedule. It isn't worth it to me. I think being pinned down is just too traumatic. I needed a lot of bloodtests as a kid, and I always thought they were sort of cool. So, there's a good chance that the next one will be better.

I wouldn't worry too much about what happened though. I think it's great that you are planning ahead for next time.


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## tracilicious (Oct 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *coopnwhitsmommy*
It was a situation that had time constraints with it. We had to be at the hospital at a certain time so that the blood could be picked up ASAP for transport to the University of Michigan for genetic testing. We were told that the blood must be processed at UofM within 24hours of the draw. Having limited amount of time in life that was the only time period available...unfortunate that he was having a melt down at the same time but...what are you gonna do?


What a difficult situation to be in. I hope everything turns out well!


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## Maggi315 (Aug 31, 2003)

Well, I would have just given him the gum right away. 4 years old, I think is too young to really be able to hold off on things like that. And if I did something like that, I would expect my son to bug and bug and bug and basically ruin the whole day. Really, gum is not going to ruin lunch or anything, right? i try to think about whether the fight is really worth it? Or am I just using the opportunity to exert control and power? And do I really care that much? About gum, no, I dont


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *coopnwhitsmommy*
I feel like I handled this poorly...I've been a bit of a grumpy butt lately I feel maybe I was being inflexable.

On the other hand I wasn't expecting him to continue begging for nearly and hour and then throw a temper tantrum either.

I don't think I was being unreasonable to ask him to wait until after lunch. I don't think I was being unreasonable to ask him to stop whining and begging. I am not in the habit of giving in to my kids when they behave poorly I feel that sets a bad precedent.

how could i have handled this better?

Well, hindsight is 20/20 but I'd definitely do a few things differently if that situation were to come up again.

1) What kind of doctor's office gives out GUM??? I've seen stickers, rings, pencils, balloons - but gum?? Bad plan and I'd just call the doctor's office and let them know I don't like that and please don't offer my kid candy or gum.

2) However, one Chiclet doesn't sound too menacing. I didn't start letting my dd1 have gum until she was four or five (can't exactly remember) so I can understand the problem though. I think a four year old asking over and over for some new and exciting treat is pretty expected and on target for that age. You or I could wait til after lunch but a four year old who just held it together for a doctor appointment, part of which included plans for a blood draw?

3) Did you know the blood draw was part of your day originally or was it sprung on you at the apppointment? Taking ds2 along seems very difficult for all involved. Ds1 will clearly need you if he is to have a blood draw. I would have called a friend or dh to come meet us and take ds2. I do regular check ups at the doc or cleanings at the dentist with all three kids along, but if it were a blood draw or a cavity filled or something like that, I'd farm out the little sibs to someone to watch for me.

4) I think (maybe it is just my personal fear of needles and blood draws in particular) that him chewing gum would have been getting off lightly if it helped him stay calm before or during the blood draw. My mom would have had to promise a trip to Disneyland to get me to hold still for a blood draw as a kid. Hell, as an adult I have a LOT of trouble with those.

This reminds me of a parenting quiz I took one time. One of the questions was about what you'd do if the grocery store bakery was giving out cookies but it was before dinner. All the choices involved somehow holding off on the kid eating the cookie. I was wondering where was the choice that said "just let the kid have the cookie". I don't want my kids to have much sugar; we don't keep cookies in the house regularly (unless those pesky Girl Scouts are selling them - love those Samoas....). But it is not every day. It is just that day. It will not ruin the fact that 95% of the time she eats grapes or sliced apples or yogurt for snack. She's a kid. It's a cookie. No big.

I think at this point, I'd sit him down and apologize for not letting him have the gum/throwing it away. I'd also explain that his asking and asking for it hurt my ears and made me grumpy. I think next time I was at the store, I'd pick up a little treat for him from the candy section.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Did you explain to him why he couldn't have the gum until after lunch? Maybe he just didn't understand. Honestly I don't see the harm in giving it to him before lunch if you were going to give it after lunch anyway. I don't mean to come across as critical, but from his point of view this is what happened:

He got the gum as a treat.
You took it away from him and he didn't understand why he needs to wait until after lunch. (Knowing WHY is huge at that age.)
He asked nicely for it over and over again. He even said please.
You told him if he keeps asking you will throw it away, but he's only four and he really really wants it. He doens't know how else to ask. (What you consider a whiny voice might be his attempt to ask really really nicely.)
You threw his gum away.
He got so angry and right after that he was taken away to get stuck with needles.

My dd2 has some health issues and has been through a lot. I have found that a treat actually helps her get through the procedures better. If she has to get a shot or blood draw she gets a lollipop beforehand so she's distracted and then afterwards she focuses on her lolly and doesn't cry so long.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

For those who asked about blood draws:

Ds has had quite a few, and he's never been held down. Held still against me, yes, but not held down by strangers. Once, I had to leave the hospital and reschedule a blood draw, as the attending staff was only trained to hold a child on a table, and were unwilling to draw blood while he sat on my lap.

We have to be our child's advocate for decent treatment. People will treat kids with such detachment in medicine, and parents are literally the one one who can change how the child is treated.

If a blood draw is absolutely necessary, I would talk to your child constantly and put them in control as much as possible.

Tell your child beforehand what will happen.

Call ahead and MAKE SURE the office stocks angel cream and find out how long it takes to work. Angel cream will numb the site on the arm, and some forms take 30 minutes to work. So you will need to arrive early. Sometimes staff is resistant to offering this, because of the extra effort, but for a blood draw, insist on it. Make sure both arms are done so if one site doesn't have a good veing, another is ready to go. It numbs the skin completely, and while the child will still feel the vein being poked, it's much better than nothing.

I'd say something like this to a 4 year old:

"The doctor wants to keep you well, and he needs to look at a bit of your blood to do that. The blood is inside you. They will use a little needle to take a bit out. For a second it will hurt. It's okay to cry. Your arm has to stay still for a minute. Then it is over and we can go do anything you like". Don't say too much, but don't make it sound fun, because it won't be fun at all and it will really freak the child out if they are expecting "no big deal" and wind up screaming in terror for 3 or 4 solid minutes.

Staying calm beforehand is so important. Essential. Do whatever you must to just keep the child calm and quiet. Blood draws are not fun for anybody. The needle is quite big and it has to remain in the arm for almost a minute. This is not the time to take a stand on discipline issues at all.

Once in the room I'd be giving choices:

"Which arm do you want her to try?"

"Do you want to sit on my lap or on the table?"

Any possible choice you can give, give it.

Some children want to see the needle go in. I wouldn't force them to turn their face away. It's fine if they prefer to see that.

Once the needle is in, his arm should remain still, because it will take forever and be very painful if he's allowed to move his arm.

So the team goes like this:

Mom holding child beside a small table.

Nurse drawing blood

Third person holding the child's arm steady on the table

Possibly a 4th there to prevent mom from being kicked by the child's legs if they thrash or kick.

There is no need for a child to be restrained on a table for a blood draw, unless the child chooses the table over moms lap. Almost all small children prefer to have mom hold them during blood draws. This should be supported, because for most kids it is far less frightening having mom hold you than 5 strangers.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggi315*
4 years old, I think is too young to really be able to hold off on things like that.

For me 32 is too young! I went to the music store last night and picked up a CD I've really been wanting. Before I made it to the car I was ripping off the plastic trying to get into the jewel case and check out the booklet that came with it. I wanted to check out the artwork, glance at some lyrics, etc, despite having to wait until I arrived home to hear it (no CD player in the car). I was just too excited to wait. Having something new is exciting.

I think as adults we do this all the time. Pick a book up at the book store and sneak peeks at red lights etc.

So I totally get why a 4 year old couldn't wait. He was excited. He had something new that was given to him - not mom - and yet mom grabbed it away. People aren't allowed to grab things away that were given to me and if someone did I can imagine how insulted and disrespected I'd feel so I can get how upsetting it must have been for him.

I would have just allowed him to have it and then taken a moment to speak with the Dr and nurse about the inappropriateness of giving treats. Once in the car I probbaly would have talked to DS about why gum is gross (in our family we're always quoting Willy Wonka on that point. I do think gum is disgusting). In my experience, especially because it was something he hadn't tried yet, I would imagine your son would have lost interest in the gum (or swallowed it) by the time he reached the parking lot. Gum's not that exciting, but the struggle sure made it that way.

But definitely do let the Dr's office know that treats aren't appropriate and that giving them out has the potential to set parents and kids up in a struggle.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Call ahead and MAKE SURE the office stocks angel cream and find out how long it takes to work. Angel cream will numb the site on the arm, and some forms take 30 minutes to work.

I have never heard of this before! If they don't have it, is there anything I can get OTC that will work in a similar way? Dd has a blood draw due soon and I am putting it off because of the trauma.


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## Montessorimom8 (Mar 6, 2006)

When my ds acts like this, it isn't the gum or candy or toy or whatever in question, it's power. If it wasn't the gum it would probably have been something else. This happens to us occasionally - the source of contention is gone and ds, also 4, just picks something else to make an issue out of. The only thing I would have done differently is after the 4th or so time I'd tell him that the gum wasn't for him today, and I'd save it for another time. I honestly don't think you should feel badly about this.


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## faeriewisp (Mar 13, 2005)

Don't feel badly. I think you did a good job of sticking to your guns, BUT next time he's this whiny and demanding, DO try redirecting his thoughts. I agree that 4 is too young to expect a child to wait. You were right in expecting him to forget, but you need to help him forget.

Tell him a story about when you were a kid or sing his favorite song. Make it as long and drawn out as possible, and he'll probably forget all about it.

I've been telling my 5 year old lately "Do not ask me again, I will not speak of this anymore!" She got annoyed by this for the first few days, but now when I tell her this she stops whining.


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## augustgirl69 (Apr 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2Sweeties1Angel*
Why in the Hell are they handing out that kind of garbage at a doctor's office anyway?

That would be my question as well. I HATE it when people offer my kids candy w/o talking to me first!


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Well, I too am confused as to why they are handing out gum at the doctors office. I know I don't want ds to have candy (or much candy) but to avoid all the drama, I probably would have just broke off a little piece and let him have the little piece. In fact, I remember that this is how my mother used to deal with me when I would demand candy or gum and it made me happy (because there was some saved for later) and it never escalated into a "thing."

It's all about trying to do better. You live and learn and MDC is the right place for suggestions on how to do better.


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

I would've done *exactly* the same thing. I don't believe you did anything wrong. We don't always get whatever we want in life, and I explain that to my son on a regular basis. I'm the parent, I make the rules, and I only do what I believe is in the best intrest of my son. When I say no, there is no discussion beyond an explination from me, of why I'm saying no.


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## NocturnalDaze (Jul 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa*
For me 32 is too young! I went to the music store last night and picked up a CD I've really been wanting. Before I made it to the car I was ripping off the plastic trying to get into the jewel case and check out the booklet that came with it. I wanted to check out the artwork, glance at some lyrics, etc, despite having to wait until I arrived home to hear it (no CD player in the car). I was just too excited to wait. Having something new is exciting.

I think as adults we do this all the time. Pick a book up at the book store and sneak peeks at red lights etc.

So I totally get why a 4 year old couldn't wait. He was excited. He had something new that was given to him - not mom - and yet mom grabbed it away. People aren't allowed to grab things away that were given to me and if someone did I can imagine how insulted and disrespected I'd feel so I can get how upsetting it must have been for him.

I would have just allowed him to have it and then taken a moment to speak with the Dr and nurse about the inappropriateness of giving treats. Once in the car I probbaly would have talked to DS about why gum is gross (in our family we're always quoting Willy Wonka on that point. I do think gum is disgusting). In my experience, especially because it was something he hadn't tried yet, I would imagine your son would have lost interest in the gum (or swallowed it) by the time he reached the parking lot. Gum's not that exciting, but the struggle sure made it that way.

But definitely do let the Dr's office know that treats aren't appropriate and that giving them out has the potential to set parents and kids up in a struggle.









:
Great post! I think it bears repeating...


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

My first issue would have been with the doctor's office. I don't let my kids gnaw on pure sugar (or substitute) and dye. Period. They know that and it's never been an issue. Personally, we would have taken the chicklet back to the nurse and asked for another sticker to replace it... and then I would have been on the phone with the dr's office later. My youngest has severe multiple food allergies and, if it had been given to him, I probably would have left the kids with dh for a few minutes (I'm seldom at the dr's w/out him) and had a few choice words with someone about their "award" options.

We would have had a conversation immediately about why we don't chew gum and, wow! isn't it funny that a doctor's office would pass it out?? And then, it would be over. Except that my now-6-year-old, even as a three- or four-year-old, would have shared with his friends and grandparents how completely silly it was for a dr's office to pass out gum...

But, if you were going to let him have it after lunch anyway (if he'd remembered), then my points are, well, pretty darn pointless. It wasn't going to spoil his appetite. You could have broken it in half. In the end, it was a power struggle.

I guess, for me, it all boils down to your reasons for not letting him have it.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
I have never heard of this before! If they don't have it, is there anything I can get OTC that will work in a similar way? Dd has a blood draw due soon and I am putting it off because of the trauma.

Not heartmama, but my DS recetnly had a blood draw, and I called my ped's office to see if they had EMLA cream or patch available - it's the same thing, and they said I could just drop by 30 min before we were going ot get the draw and have them put it on him. I'd call your ped, they should have it available for you - I don't know if they would give you any to do yourself, but at least you might be able to swing by there and then go to the lab. I ended up not using it, though, so I can't say whether it works or not.

And I second (or third, or fourth, whatever) holding kiddo in your lap and bringing a VERY special treat rather than letting people he/she doesn't know restrain him. Worked like a charm for DS - my little 2 yo weirdo not only watched the needle go in, but watched it flow from the butterfly into the 2 vials - guess he gets that from me, I do the same thing when I get my blood drawn (regularly for my thyroid condition).


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## DaladyRivkah (Mar 8, 2006)

I think you handled it fine. He chose to whine and whine you warned him and followed through. I'm sorry he threw a huge screaming fit and I know that it's stressful when that happens.

Two things I would have done differently: I would have explained why he couldn't have it as I think that at least then he could feel like there was actually a reason and you weren't just being mean. And secondly I would not have let it go for an hour. The third or fourth time he asked me I would have told him to stop asking, that I would let him have it after lunch and that if he whined at me again, he'd loose the privelege. This way, it's immediately apparent that you aren't going to bend and no amount of wearing down will change that. Also, if you are consistent with that, theoretically, he will stop whining for things like that in the future.


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## NocturnalDaze (Jul 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaladyRivkah*
Two things I would have done differently: I would have explained why he couldn't have it as I think that at least then he could feel like there was actually a reason and you weren't just being mean. And secondly I would not have let it go for an hour. The third or fourth time he asked me I would have told him to stop asking, that I would let him have it after lunch and that if he whined at me again, he'd loose the privelege. This way, it's immediately apparent that you aren't going to bend and no amount of wearing down will change that. Also, if you are consistent with that, theoretically, he will stop whining for things like that in the future.


Parents are allowed to rethink what they are doing and try to see things from the childs point of view. I have no problem "bending" when my child is that upset. Obviously the gum was very important to him. Though often, as an adult, it's hard to see why supposedly little things are important.

My parent were consistent about not backing down. I assure you this does not reduce whining. I was whining for things well into my teens


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## CA Mommy (Mar 5, 2006)

When my 3 yo DS constantly repeats himself, which is what I think was more of the problem than the gum. If I paraphrase what he wants and then give him an explanation he usually stops. If I don't acknowledge what he wants, he will continue to say it over and over and over until I am going crazy.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CA Mommy*
When my 3 yo DS constantly repeats himself, which is what I think was more of the problem than the gum. If I paraphrase what he wants and then give him an explanation he usually stops. If I don't acknowledge what he wants, he will continue to say it over and over and over until I am going crazy.

That's a really handy communication "trick" that works for us as well, even with the two-year-old. We try to couple it with acknowledging feelings, so the conversation might look like this:
KID: I want the gum!
ME: You sound really frustrated. The nurse gave you the gum, but you can't have it right now because we're in the car and it's not safe (or whatever reason).
KID: Yeah.
ME: That makes you feel frustrated and a little sad, doesn't it?
KID: Yes.
ME: Well, let's head home and have lunch. After you eat your growing food you can have the gum as a special treat.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

i m so there with you

you probably felt angry because the nurse totally undermined you by giving the gum straight to your child in the first place, undermining your right as parent to decide what and when your child eats.

you werent happy with the gum and were frustrated with the position you had been put in and ended up being frustrtaed and angry with the only available person - i have soooo been there.

then i spend hopurs thinking of how i should have just told the nurse that my child wasnt allowed gum but thank you, and maybe promised to let dc have something nice for pudding after lunch, that way nothing is eaten before lunch and you get to choose what yoru child eats.

but, hind sight is a wonderful thing.

feeling undermined is one of my BIGGEST red buttons

big


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## kofduke (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oceansummer*
You do understand that this is over a _Chicklet_?

Exactly what do you mean by "let him have it?"


Um...I think she means let him have the chicklet.

Mama, it sounds like a stressful day all around for all 3 of you...I hope tomorrow is better! It sounds like you've gotten some good ideas here for the next time something like this happens.


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## NocturnalDaze (Jul 3, 2002)

Doh, I guess I read that too fast. Sorry 'bout that!


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn*
I don't think most parents realize how much little things like this mean to kids. I would've explained to him that it's not safe to eat while in the car, but as soon as we got back out of the car, he could have it again. I would not have thrown it away at all.

I agree. To us it may be a stupid piece of gum, but to him, it probably seemed like a really special thing. To see it thrown away was very hard for him, I'd guess.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I'm surprised by the number of "Yes, stick to your guns, you show him!" kind of responses. Isn't the OP saying this situation did not feel very good to her and she wants another way of handling this next time?

The point of gentle discipline isn't just "not spanking".

"Winning" "outlasting" or "sticking to your guns" with kids is not disciplining them.

We are teaching our kids how to treat us.

When I ask one too many times for pictures of the grandkids, I'd rather ds not tell me he was throwing mine in the trash if I kept asking.

We all have awful days as parents. I think it's great that the OP recognizes there was something in that day which didn't sit right with her. I'm thinking that should be supportively explored. If people say "Hey, you did great, you won didn't you?" then she is going to have other days like that, and I'm not sure she wants that?


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## solstar (May 26, 2002)

Our ped gives out suckers and stickers but they usually ask if it is ok.
The allergist's office has sugarfree suckers


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *solstar*
Our ped gives out suckers and stickers but they usually ask if it is ok.
The allergist's office has sugarfree suckers









Are the sugarfree suckers also free of corn and soy derivatives and dye? I guess the reasoning of an allergist's office passing out candy containing potential allergens is just beyond me...


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
When I ask one too many times for pictures of the grandkids, I'd rather ds not tell me he was throwing mine in the trash if I kept asking.

Great point, well said! Mind if I borrow this with my dh?


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

There's also no way to know how the nurse presented the gum to him, since she was not with Mama when she gave it to him. She could have made it seem really special.

I think its okay sometimes, when you realize that something is extraordinarily important to your child, to say, "I didn't realize how important this was to you. I'm sorry. We'll make an exception this time; here you go."

And take it up with the nurse, the ONLY one whose behavior was really out of line in this incident.


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

sounds like a really hard day..

Since we have no goodies at home (candy, soda,cookies, sugar) I let Jack have it if someone else gives it to him outside the house. I am trying to teach him that goodies are a rare treat we have other places. I think it is good for them to have just a little so they learn that you can have treats and not eat them everyday.

You sounded VERY patient to me...we are all trying our best and this age is a little tricky for me.


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
And take it up with the nurse, the ONLY one whose behavior was really out of line in this incident.

I also tell people not to give my ds goodies (prevention of a tantrum!!)


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *solstar*
The allergist's office has sugarfree suckers









See, this just goes to show that you can't please everyone! I would NOT be happy if anyone gave my kid something with fake sugar!!! I believe there is a link to cancer and my kids don't get anything with fake sugar (including vitamins and toothpaste) if I can find an alternative.

Once in co-op preschool, I was eyeing the snack the kids were making as it looked odd to me and I wondered what it was. The mom says "oh, don't worry, it's sugar-free pudding!" with a big smile on her face like she'd done some great thing. It was my first kid and I was pretty set and dried on what I'd allow and not allow. So now do I stick to my guns and let my kid be the only one who doesn't get pudding? Or let her eat something that I believe is harmful to her? I figured sugar-free pudding every day for a year or two would be a problem, but ONE time at preschool likely wouldn't have any effect at all. So I said nothing at the time. She took one bite, made a face, and said she didn't like it. Good girl!!!! I later emailed the teacher and parents in our class and asked to be informed if there would be fake sugar in snack as I'd bring something else for my child that day if there were. No one brought it again. Sorry to get off topic...

Oh, and the numbing cream. It is called EMLA by some and my friend used to get it from her doctor and keep it in their toiletry kit so she could apply it to her 10 year old dd's arm before going in for procedures. If I remember right, it is kind of like a big clear patch with cream under and sticky band aid like all around the edges. You apply it some period of time beforehand (30-60 minutes?) and they remove it when you get to the appointment.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I'm surprised by the number of "Yes, stick to your guns, you show him!" kind of responses. Isn't the OP saying this situation did not feel very good to her and she wants another way of handling this next time?

The point of gentle discipline isn't just "not spanking".

"Winning" "outlasting" or "sticking to your guns" with kids is not disciplining them.

We are teaching our kids how to treat us.

When I ask one too many times for pictures of the grandkids, I'd rather ds not tell me he was throwing mine in the trash if I kept asking.

We all have awful days as parents. I think it's great that the OP recognizes there was something in that day which didn't sit right with her. I'm thinking that should be supportively explored. If people say "Hey, you did great, you won didn't you?" then she is going to have other days like that, and I'm not sure she wants that?









Really well said!

I think all of your posts have been excellent here!


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

mama.

You know what is so great? That you are asking this question! It is so important to be able to dissect these things later on and decide what to do differently in the future.

*I* would have let him have the gum right then and explained that he could chew it for a minute, until we get into the car, then he'd need to put it into some paper until we got to our next stop, because I would be afraid of choking on it in the car. I am in the camp that is ok with treats in those situations, because we almost never have them at home.

I also have no real problem with the Dr.s office giving out chicklets (but I do think they should ask the parents first). Fake sugar stuff, that I would have a real problem with (but would still let my kid have it) I would send the Dr. some info on that.


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## solstar (May 26, 2002)

The sugar is fructose or something like that, fruit sugar and they are dye free.


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## Slabobbin (Jan 29, 2004)

Such an interesting thread.

I get so, so, so freaking tired of my four year old whining and repeating himself. And it is hard to strike a balance between giving in on something that is really important to him (because everything seems to be) and on helping him to understand that I AM ultimately "the boss" and that he DOES have to do what I say and sometimes do it without question (although it is rare I pull that card).

I would have probably handled it like you did and then like you had a "hindsite is 20/20" moment afterwards.

I once threw away DS's ice cream at a zoo because he refused to bite it off and it was melting fast and getting all over him and me both. He was insisting on slowly licking it and we were both having a meltdown and finally I told him to do as I said or I was throwing it away. He didn't so I jerked it out of his hand and threw it away.

A YEAR AND A HALF LATER he still remembers that and is still upset by it and thus so am I. I feel HORRIBLE. I would give anything to take that back, but I can't. At least it helps me to try to do better in the future.

I don't think anyone is going to be scarred by this. Maybe he actually DID learn to hush his whining when you tell him to and maybe you learned a different way as well.


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## lasciate (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *solstar*
The sugar is fructose or something like that, fruit sugar and they are dye free.

Then they aren't sugar-free.


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I've been in situations that were similar in that there was a power struggle between my dd and me and it ended badly and didn't sit right with either of us. I'm sorry you both had such a rough time! It does seem doubly sad because the poor kid had to get a blood draw on top of it all.

I really try to tell myself, "What is really important here?" when I feel a power struggle ramping up. The answer is my relationship with my daughter. I try to act accordingly - don't always succeed. I don't have any real specifics for you, but humor can go a long way. Unfortunately, once one gets upset it is difficult to try to make the situation humorous. When I am able to, though the results are usually wonderful.

It really takes practice to get in the right kind of mindset to be able to handle these situations the way you would like to as the come up. Thinking about it afterwards and trying to come up with, "Next time I'll try...." like you are doing now has really helped me the next time around though. Good for you (and your ds) for doing this! It is hard to put yourself out here and risk getting hurtful comments back. I've done it after my own bad scenarios and have gotten some great comments.

~Tracy


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## MountainLaurel (Dec 17, 2005)

I think your approach makes sense. You gave him notice of the consequences of his actions, and when he didn't cease and desist







, you followed through on the consequences. Makes sense to me.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstar
The sugar is fructose or something like that, fruit sugar and they are dye free.

Then they aren't sugar-free.
And, fructose is usually derived from corn--which many children are allergic to--and my child, at least, would also be allergic to just about any fruit sugar. I know this is totally off-topic, but I find it really strange for an allergist's office to pass out any kind of candy, when a certain percentage of his pediatric patients will very probably be allergic to whatever it is. An allergist's office is the one place I would expect to be able to go with my child and not encounter yet another thing he can't have. It should be a safe zone.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I think it can also help with the repeating thing to help the child remember what the original answer was. I think sometimes they forget.

I was at some children's house earlier this week and the daughter kept asking her mother the same question over and over after she answered it the first time. It was really bothering me and the mom. I called the girl over and asked her whether her mom had said she could have it or not. She wasn't sure. I told her that her mom had said yes, and asked if she remembered when her mom had said that she could do it. SHe couldn't remember that either. So I re-stated it and she stopped asking and went to play while she waited. And she is almost 6.

I think sometimes they are so fixated on getting the item/activity, etc. they want that they don't even hear the answer or explanation if it isn't yes. So I think if they keep asking, you should first check to see if they even remember your answer, and have them explain it to you. If you have an actual conversation about it, they are much less likely to forget.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
Oh, and the numbing cream. It is called EMLA.

We use this stuff on my ds for his insulin pump site changes. I believe that Emla is no longer available. The options now are LMX, which is a 4% lidocaine and takes about 30-45 minutes to work and is over the counter. Or there is a 2% lidocaine available by prescription that takes longer to work, but will be covered by your insurance if your ped will write a script. I used it on my son for his last blood draw, and he only cried a tiny bit. You put the cream on, then cover it with an occlusive dressing (we use IV 3000) to make sure it doesn't get wiped off.


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
I have never heard of this before! If they don't have it, is there anything I can get OTC that will work in a similar way? Dd has a blood draw due soon and I am putting it off because of the trauma.


We've done tons a blood draws too and I've never heard of angel cream and it doesn't sound like it works to well if the child still feels the needle at some point. We do how ever use Emla Cream which works great and the child doesn't feel a thing. Down side is it needs to be applied at least 1 hour before the draw and if the child has SID issues 2 hours. My dd fights like hell during draws and I've been bitten a number of times except for when I've insisted on Emla then its a matter of distracting her so she doesn't know the needle is in. Emla itself is expensive but we managed to get 5 - 5g tubes of the generic stuff for $12 at rite aid with a script and it takes half a tube per arm then you keep it in place with a tagaderm. Works great, poor kiddo had to gave like 13 tubes of blood drawn 2 weeks ago and never even knew when the needle went in. We went out and got a treat after that, I would have passed out taking that much blood..


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

OP, i really hope you will explain the total unacceptability of the nurse's behaviour to the office, since they are too busy 'promoting health' to get it.
argh.


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## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

im just chiming in about the blood draws. my ds2 had 6 surgeries in his 2nd year and there were alot of blood draws from those. i agree that no child should be held down like that. my experience with medical personnel is that they want to get things done stat regardless of children's limitations but i never let that happen without ds2 being in either my lap or his fathers.

otoh, i never let me children have gum...lots of reasons.
if they were given gum, i took it away. period. it was not permitted. i think ds2 wsa 6 or 7 before he ever had gum, and it wasnt from me. but, since it was a reward from someone else, i would have traded him for something permissible. then i woudl call the office the next day and vent about putting me in that situation.

sounds like it was a hard day. hope you have had an opportunity to reconnect.


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