# What's the line between being permissive and UP?



## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I'm finding it hard to define the line, and I'm getting resentful.

Take FlyLady. Her thing is to have routines in place so that housework is never so overwhelming. Supposedly, other people in the family will see how great it is and might go along. You are not supposed to expect help. My DH just sees it as a reason to help even less when I seem to manage alone. I think it's just another way women have to do the SAME work, only told to be happy about it/not think it's big deal.

Back to UP . . .is it just a way of rationalizing permissiveness? Of saying, "There is really no way to control your children, so let's call it UP and be done with it." I know, control is a horrible word. But on a night like tonight, where I'm alone with my 3 kids and my 6 yo decides it's OK to bodyslam into her top bunk bed repeatedly (laughing) while I try to put the 3 yo to bed (in the bottom bunk) I'd like to have some sort of control.

It's that type of thing.


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Re: Flylady, that's because you're supposed to make changes for yourself and not have your comfort be dependent on other people's action or inaction. However, I feel she's too cynical about the effectiveness of communication. We can't make other people change, but we can request that they choose to change.

As for the UP thing, reread the book, because what you're describing is my initial impression of UP based on how people described practicing it, but when I actually read the book I remember thinking that it was much more sensible. But it's been awhile since I read it so I don't remember details beyond "It doesn't have to be like that."


----------



## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

UP is not consensual living. I don't think it has to mean giving up control. You can decide certain behaviors are just not acceptable, and take steps to prevent them. (And you don't have to use punishment to do that. Think of the carseat example. Just about every parent in the US nowadays has taken control and decided that their small children will never ride in the car without being strapped into their carseats. So they don't. Everyone somehow manages to make this a rule that is essentially never broken, and in most cases I think it happens without punishment.)

I think permissiveness is when there's something your kid does repeatedly that is really a problem, something you wish you could put a stop to, something it might actually be reasonable to put a stop to (not an age-appropriate behavior the kid can't really control) - but it feels too hard (or too mean) to stop it, so you don't bother.

It's not permissiveness if the methods you decide on to stop the behavior are more gradual or less direct than applying a consequence. (For instance, if you decide to teach good manners by modelling them yourself rather than by punishing rudeness.) And it's not permissiveness if you decide to let the behavior go because you're looking at the big picture and you feel trying to stop it would be more harmful than helpful in the long run.


----------



## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

sapphire_chan: RE: FL-- yes, I get that, but I think it's a copout. At the end of the day, I am still doing the SAME amount of work (alone), but I'm just supposed to do it without whining? C'mon. FL has a lot of great ideas, but I think she sidesteps that issue, which is a MAJOR issue. It is simply unfair that women around the world do more housework than men, even those that WOH. And now we better do it with a smile on our face . . .









As for UP, even though I've read it, I feel like that it is of list of don'ts (don't attempt to control or manipulate) without a lot of what you should do. I find that to be prevalent in AK's work, however, not just this book.

Daffodil: As for certain behaviors not being acceptable-- tell me, how do you get this point across? You can't give consequences (they'd ultimately be perceived as a threat), you don't want to entice (that would be manipulative, oooh, the evils of bribery), so you should just give in to the fact that you can't control ANYONE. Doesn't he state that in the book, that you can't? Bottom line, I don't think that you can control anyone, and I think my children are well aware of that.

Let's take my DD body slamming into the bed. I was holding my 18 mo (who is very high needs), trying to comfort my 3 yo, who was upset because DH was gone (to help my mom, who currently has the Chicago river flowing down her street). I was attempting to put them to sleep with guided imagery, which was working with my 3 yo (and the 6 yo usually loves it), but my 6 yo decided that keeping my 3 yo awake would be more fun. So,
I told her that would break the bed-- she could stop or sleep in the hallway. Any way you look at that, I am trying to control her with a threat. Sure, you could say I gave her "choices" but it still results in control and threatening (you can call it a consequence, promise, whatever . . .it's the same thing).

RE: Carseats. The way I got my toddler into her carseat for a year was with a lollipop. Pure and simple bribery. So sure, people do get their kids in seats, but I have witnessed a lot of yelling, bribery, etc. with their children. Some people (I've only seen people with one child do this) wait until the child is "ready" and then they get in the seat . . .so the child is, in effect, controlling the parent. Someone is controlling someone much of the time. I was lucky to have 2/3 children cooperate most of the time, but that is nothing I do, it is just the personality of the child in that situation. I guess you could say it is habit, but some children TEST the habit, make sure it is really a rule-- how do you let them know (esp. a willful child) without the threats/punishment/bribes? With my willful middle child, I tried simply not driving, but she didn't care. She had the time of her life exploring the car, even for an hour at a time. I tried this a few times and then I went to bribery. Now I don't need the lollipop, but I make her seat a "magic" seat where she turns into the person/princess of her choice. I guess I'm making it fun, but ultimately it's manipulative.

Oh, and I've seen PLENTY of young children driving without being strapped in. It's crazy. Of course, I don't know how this happens (does the parent not care? Does the child put up a fight?) but I just don't get it. I know some parents would rather nurse their child out of a seat then let them cry, but that's another post . . .


----------



## RasJi7 (Sep 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
sapphire_chan: Now I don't need the lollipop, but I make her seat a "magic" seat where she turns into the person/princess of her choice. I guess I'm making it fun, but ultimately it's manipulative.

That's great! That is playful parenting. Not manipulative because in that moment that is who she is. Making life fun is not manipulative in my eyes and kids love it.

FlyLady... I am honest with myself- I LIKE MY HOUSE CLEAN. Not just clean but spotless- unless there is activity going on at the moment (cooking, playing with a toy, etc. But as soon as that activity is over I want everything spotless again. Really it's a personal issue and I don't expect my husband to change to fit my weirdness. I grew up with a Mom who is legally blind and whether she couldn't actually SEE dirt or what I have no memories of her cleaning other then running a vacuum. I need everything organized and clean. I have checkout out flylady's website and think it's great for people who want to make a change. I don't get the emails or anything so I'm not sure but I've never seen the emphasis being on the woman only. Seems like anyone could use her advice.

When I want help from husband I tell him what I need done I don't expect him to read my mind. If I am doing something like folding laundry and he is just sitting there- I remind him that we are a team and that I would like our son to grow up seeing us help each other out- I only have to remind him every now and then and he jumps back on the helping out bandwagon. Hope that helps.

I'm new to all of this as my son is only 6 months old. UP for me is a focus on raising a human being, and fostering what I see as a divine relationship. God gave me this child, entrusted me with him and I am doing my best to raise a wonderful human being. Humans are not perfect so I will not expect perfection from my child. I read a good tip on here that says to tell a child that something needs to be done. It takes away the power struggle, no one is telling the child what to do just stating the fact that it needs to be done.

If it is an issue with a car seat I would take a look at the reasons behind why my child might not want to be in the carseat. Are we never going anywhere for him/her? How can I change that? Am I running around too much? Is there a way to do these things when she is in bed and DH is home with the kids or even better something he can get on the way home?

My focus is less on making my child blindly listen to barking orders (because who wants to raise an adult that needs to be ordered around?) and more on realizing that I wanted a child, i brought a child into my life and how can I make this a great life for us both?


----------



## RasJi7 (Sep 25, 2007)

thought of some more that might be helpful. Knowing what your child is developmentally capable of is good so that you ar enot expecting too much.

Focus on the most important behavioral changes you would like to see for each child. If it's rough housing make sure your child is getting enough time to let off energy during the day. Decide if you don't allow rough housing at all or just after a certain time and focus on that for a week or two, once that behavior is gettin gon track you can focus on something else- I just think it is too much to have 7 or 8 things you wan tchanged and to harp on them all day- you would go crazy- pick the most important ones first.


----------



## greenmama (Feb 8, 2002)

What does UP stand for?


----------



## RasJi7 (Sep 25, 2007)

unconditional parenting. one that took me forever to figure out was cl... consensual living i believe


----------



## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

RasJi7: Yes, I know it is playful parenting. But like I said, call it what you want . . .ultimately it IS manipulation, or at a minimum, a form of control.

RE: FlyLady, yes, for me, I like my house clean, but it isn't only that. People in my house like to find things easily, have the clothes they want to wear to be clean, want a clean dish to eat off of, etc. FL spins it so that you feel better about doing things as though it's a choice (therefore, if you want it clean you do it, and do it w/o complaint), but really, every family needs a certain level of cleanliness to live a less stressful life. I, of course, tell my DH when I need help, but it isn't exactly a solution in our house.

As for your son being 6 mos old and your only child, no offense, but I have three children ages 6, 3, and 18 months. It's a different dynamic. I suggest you print out what you've written and keep it in mind, because it's a great goal, but at times it may be more trying than you ever dreamed. I know because I used to be the same way. I thought I had all the answers when I just had one child. I was the first to give advice to my sister who had older/more children (now I'm just embarrassed that I thought I knew what I knew . . .). We sailed through even the so-called "terrible twos", and then we had another child, and then my oldest hit the age of 3. Things will probably change. It's not to say that your GOALS will change, but the answers are just not so easy.

As for the carseat issue. For us, it was that my DD loved to play in the car. That was the reason she didn't want to get in her seat-- she'd rather sit in the front seat and pretend to drive (and yes, we have a fake car thing w/ a steering wheel). I couldn't avoid the car. I HAD to get her in/out to pick up my other DD from school. While I made arrangements with friends to minimize this, a simple lollipop was the most efficient solution.

I agree that knowing what to expect of a child developmentally is an important part of discipline. The trouble comes (for me) when the needs (inc. what they are capable of) of my children conflict, and there is only one "me." It is different here when there is another caring adult around to help with one-on-one time, but most of the time it is just me, so we muddle through things. I am hoping once my children get just a bit older (esp. my 18 mo, who like I said, is high needs) things will get just a bit easier.


----------



## RasJi7 (Sep 25, 2007)

I hope things get easier for you as well.

It's often easier for others to look in and give feedback no matter how many bio children they have. Just as you can't judge a book by its cover you also can't judge a momma by their sig line. I don't feel like I need to post my qualifications or anything before I answer a post and I hope others don't feel like they do either.

Here's a







in case you need it. i wish you and your family the best.


----------



## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
UP is not consensual living. I don't think it has to mean giving up control. You can decide certain behaviors are just not acceptable, and take steps to prevent them. (And you don't have to use punishment to do that. Think of the carseat example. Just about every parent in the US nowadays has taken control and decided that their small children will never ride in the car without being strapped into their carseats. So they don't. Everyone somehow manages to make this a rule that is essentially never broken, and in most cases I think it happens without punishment.)

I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but it sounds like you think people who live consensually don't have their kids in car seats if they don't want to be. We are constantly striving to be more consensual and our kids are always in their car seats. They're not forced into them, but they never ride in a car without them.

I don't feel it's my role to control my kids and I don't set up riding in car seats as a "rule." If they're resistant to getting into their car seats, we'll find a way to work through that. If my toddler will accept sitting in his car seat with a snack or a special toy, I don't consider that bribery. I consider us both to have met our needs. I need him to be safe and he needs food or a distraction from having to sit somewhere he doesn't really want to be.


----------



## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
RE: Carseats. The way I got my toddler into her carseat for a year was with a lollipop. Pure and simple bribery. So sure, people do get their kids in seats, but I have witnessed a lot of yelling, bribery, etc. with their children. Some people (I've only seen people with one child do this) wait until the child is "ready" and then they get in the seat . . .so the child is, in effect, controlling the parent. Someone is controlling someone much of the time.

I wrote about the car seat bribery thing in my last post, but there were a couple of things I wanted to ask you. Would you consider it bribery if your child asked for a lollipop when getting into the car seat? Would you feel like she was manipulating you? Would it feel like bribery if you talked together (assuming she's old enough for this) and came up with ideas that would help her feel comfortable with getting into her car seat? I don't think your princess role play is manipulative. I think it's really creative and makes you both happy.

And on the controlling thing with the car seats...I'm too impatient to wait a long time for my kids to get into their car seats. I also have two kids, so waiting hours for one of them to be ready wouldn't work for us. But, I know people who *are* ok with waiting for their kids to be ready. It actually works for them. And the parents don't feel like they're being controlled. Do you still consider the kids to be controlling the parents if the parents don't mind?


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Personally, from what you've described, I'd address the parenting concerns by starting with a good long talk with my dh about maintaining the house. Because while it's important not to wait for other people to pitch-in to get the house pleasant to live in, it's absurd and damaging to a relationship to seethe behind a fake smile.

Really it seems like you've been painting yourself into a corner--really into two corners at once--and reducing stress and resentment in one aspect will help you deal with the other.


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riversong* 
Do you still consider the kids to be controlling the parents if the parents don't mind?

And... if the people with all the power choose to let the people with no power direct the course of action are the people with no power really controlling anything?

(Not trying to gang up on you, Miz, just putting it out there as part of a potentially broader theory discussion for anyone to address.)


----------



## rockportmama (Jun 24, 2008)

Hi!

I have no idea what unconditional parenting is or who the flylady is. Also, I only have one (so far) who is 2.5. That being said, it sounds like perhaps you're looking for a way to discipline without punishing or controlling? Surely there's a way to dissuade your daughter from body-slamming at bedtime without commands, lecturing, warnings, threats, punishments, power struggles or yelling? Let me recommend my favorite book. How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk. by adele faber & elaine mazlish. I swear by the easy to use techniques in this book. Granted, there's not a chapter on housework.







But this book (of the dozen or so discipline books I've read) has helped me most.

Can you parent well (discipline) without resorting to permissiveness or punishment/control struggles? I believe so. That's my personal goal -- to find that place!

Personally, I don't believe permissiveness is good parenting. Again, I have no idea what is meant by "unconditional parenting" so I cannot debate whether it is permissive or not.

As for being resentful, I follow the Dr. & Mrs. Sears line on this one. "If you resent it, change it!"

You sound pretty frustrated. Hopefully some little bit of this ramble might help! Either way, I trust your Mama instincts to point you in the right direction for your family!


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
Daffodil: As for certain behaviors not being acceptable-- tell me, how do you get this point across? You can't give consequences (they'd ultimately be perceived as a threat), you don't want to entice (that would be manipulative, oooh, the evils of bribery), so you should just give in to the fact that you can't control ANYONE. Doesn't he state that in the book, that you can't? Bottom line, I don't think that you can control anyone, and I think my children are well aware of that.
. .


I agree that you can't control anyone--and even if we could, it is an undesirable goal.

But, surely we can and should set boundaries. Our dc need to see us model how to enforce boundaries, because it is a skill that they need as well.

I'd be interested in seeing more discussion here about how to do that in a UP way. I'll admit that I've moved away from some of Kohn's positions, because our family functions better when some behaviors are changed through reward and punishment. That represents a small part of our relationship, though, and I do not believe that, in reality, my dc experiences any feeling of conditional love. I spend 95+% of our time treating her like this:







:, so our relationship is resiliant enough to handle some


----------



## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riversong* 
I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but it sounds like you think people who live consensually don't have their kids in car seats if they don't want to be.

No, just the opposite. I was trying to make the point that pretty much everyone figures out a way to get their kids in carseats - not just people who are big on control and punishment, but CL folks, too.

Quote:

I don't feel it's my role to control my kids and I don't set up riding in car seats as a "rule." If they're resistant to getting into their car seats, we'll find a way to work through that.
Yep, that's just what I was trying to say - there are plenty of ways to control what your kids do without punishment (or without even thinking of it as control.)


----------



## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
Daffodil: As for certain behaviors not being acceptable-- tell me, how do you get this point across? You can't give consequences (they'd ultimately be perceived as a threat), you don't want to entice (that would be manipulative, oooh, the evils of bribery), so you should just give in to the fact that you can't control ANYONE. Doesn't he state that in the book, that you can't? Bottom line, I don't think that you can control anyone, and I think my children are well aware of that.

Well, no, you can't control anyone 100% of the time, no matter how controlling and punitive you try to be. But I certainly have a lot of control over what my kids do. (And I feel okay about having control. I'm all for UP, but I don't aim for CL.)

How do I get the point across that a behavior is unacceptable? Mostly, I just say so, in a voice that makes it clear I'm serious, and with an explanation of why it's a problem. Mostly, that's enough for my kids (especially the older one), but they're extraordinarily compliant. But it isn't always even necessary to get the point across to the kids. The main thing is for _you_ to decide the behavior isn't acceptable, and then do what you have to do to keep it from happening. Sometimes you can prevent a behavior in a way that doesn't even involve the kid - supervise more closely, change your routine, put things out of reach, avoid situations you know usually lead to trouble, etc. Consequences, I agree, are usually to be avoided. Bribery doesn't seem so bad to me, especially when it's more in the form of "let's make a deal," where the kid and I together work out a way for the kid to feel okay about doing what I want.

Quote:

So, I told her that would break the bed-- she could stop or sleep in the hallway. Any way you look at that, I am trying to control her with a threat. Sure, you could say I gave her "choices" but it still results in control and threatening (you can call it a consequence, promise, whatever . . .it's the same thing).
What if you told her it would break the bed, and told her to stop, and then left off the "or sleep in the hallway" part? Would that not be likely to work? If it were my kid and for some reason that didn't work, I might say, "Well, I can't let you keep doing that so I guess I'll have to put you out of the room for now if you can't stop." Which is sort of a threat, and may seem like a punishment, but you're putting the focus on keeping her from breaking the bed, rather than on punishing her for not obeying you, so to me it seems okay as a last resort. But I'd rather come up with something to distract her from the bed-slamming. If she couldn't be enticed to listen to a story or sing some songs or something, maybe I'd try the "let's make a deal" route.


----------



## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

:


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Yeah I'd just say, "Jumping on the bed will break it and we can't afford a new bed. You need to stop and find someplace else to jump." And maybe suggest an alternative. My mattress is too firm and could use a little loosening up, for instance. My daughter is pretty wild, but she understands reason and if there's a legitimate reason behind something she seems to do it. I don't mind using my "mom voice" if called for. Also, standing there expectantly and watching with hands on hips does a lot of good too. If it came to it, I would say, "Get. Off. The. Bed. *Now*." Although I can't say I have to resort to that level of firmness very often. Do other people's kids not respond to this kind of thing? There are plenty of ways to have expectations, and even be firm, and not use punishment or rewards.


----------



## rockportmama (Jun 24, 2008)

Maybe if you said "Jumping on the bed _might_ break it." That way when she jumps on it once and nothing breaks you haven't lost all authority. Or, "I'm scared for your and your sibling's safety when you jump on the bed. I love you both and want to keep you safe." My DS (2.5) will now ask me before doing something he considers questionable "Are you concerned for my safety, Mama?" This gives me a chance to either give him permission or not.

Also, for my DS, he has several places in the house he Likes to sleep -- his bed, our bed, the couch. Routinely at night I tell him "If you can be quiet and not bounce on the bed you can sleep with Mama. If you need to be loud or bouncy you can sleep on the couch." So I see no problem with offering her another comfy place to sleep if she needs to jump.

I also TRY to do the thing where you say "Wow! Bouncing on the bed looks like a lot of fun! The problem is Mama is trying to put your little sibling to bed and jumping is disruptive."

I'm very fond of the "NO JUMP!" approach.

Also "I am upset to see you jumping on your bed. I expect you to not jump."

These ideas are not mine. They're all from How to Talk. I really love that book.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
How do I get the point across that a behavior is unacceptable? Mostly, I just say so, in a voice that makes it clear I'm serious, and with an explanation of why it's a problem. Mostly, that's enough for my kids (especially the older one), but they're extraordinarily compliant. But it isn't always even necessary to get the point across to the kids. The main thing is for _you_ to decide the behavior isn't acceptable, and then do what you have to do to keep it from happening. Sometimes you can prevent a behavior in a way that doesn't even involve the kid - supervise more closely, change your routine, put things out of reach, avoid situations you know usually lead to trouble, etc. Consequences, I agree, are usually to be avoided. Bribery doesn't seem so bad to me, especially when it's more in the form of "let's make a deal," where the kid and I together work out a way for the kid to feel okay about doing what I want.

What if you told her it would break the bed, and told her to stop, and then left off the "or sleep in the hallway" part? Would that not be likely to work? If it were my kid and for some reason that didn't work, I might say, "Well, I can't let you keep doing that so I guess I'll have to put you out of the room for now if you can't stop." Which is sort of a threat, and may seem like a punishment, but you're putting the focus on keeping her from breaking the bed, rather than on punishing her for not obeying you, so to me it seems okay as a last resort. But I'd rather come up with something to distract her from the bed-slamming. If she couldn't be enticed to listen to a story or sing some songs or something, maybe I'd try the "let's make a deal" route.

Our house functions very, very much like this (except that I would never describe my dd as extraordinarily compliant, lol). It is interesting, though, because I perceive my home *not* to be UP/Kohn-like. I guess Alfie leaves some room for interpretation?


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
UP is not consensual living.

True ... but I thought I should point out that consensual living is not permissive, either. Of course, there are different ways of defining permissive. I see permissiveness as just not wanting to put any energy into parenting, and being more interested in other pursuits, to the point where kids are kind of left to raise themselves.

In contrast, Unconditional Parenting and Consensual Living, while not the same, both encourage parents to be very available, attentive, responsive, and involved.

Quote:

I don't think it has to mean giving up control.
Right. We have a right to set boundaries and be in control of our own bodies and space. We just aren't aiming to control our children ... our ultimate aim is to help them learn to respect others' boundaries.

I like mamazee's idea of helping the child find someplace else to jump.

Also, you could remind her that if she's quiet, her siblings will likely fall asleep sooner, and then the two of you could have some special one-on-one time. If she's not enjoying the go-to-sleep activity you're doing with the little ones, maybe it would appeal to her to pick out some books for you and her to read later, and go wait for you in your bed?


----------



## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I will come back to address the questions, but re: the jumping.

Saying "stop slamming into the bed or you have to sleep in the hallway" was NOT the first thing I said. I did explain everything-- how it would break the bed and all of that. Finding another place to jump at that time of night was not going to work. She was already overtired. In fact, when I gave her the options, she happily agreed to going to the hallway, and pretended she was camping.

My problems with discipline almost ALWAYS stem from having 3 children pulling me in 3 different directions. Promising my oldest alone time with me is very tough. My youngest is up a lot and is very demanding when she is awake. DH was not home that particular night, which further stressed us all out (I don't know if I mentioned that before . . .he was helping my mom who was in a flood). But, even regularly, DH isn't home that much during the week as it is. It is hard on my oldest, I know.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
My problems with discipline almost ALWAYS stem from having 3 children pulling me in 3 different directions. Promising my oldest alone time with me is very tough. My youngest is up a lot and is very demanding when she is awake.









I can see how that would be tough -- on both you and your dd.


----------



## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
I will come back to address the questions, but re: the jumping.

Saying "stop slamming into the bed or you have to sleep in the hallway" was NOT the first thing I said. I did explain everything-- how it would break the bed and all of that. Finding another place to jump at that time of night was not going to work. She was already overtired. In fact, when I gave her the options, she happily agreed to going to the hallway, and pretended she was camping.

My problems with discipline almost ALWAYS stem from having 3 children pulling me in 3 different directions. Promising my oldest alone time with me is very tough. My youngest is up a lot and is very demanding when she is awake. DH was not home that particular night, which further stressed us all out (I don't know if I mentioned that before . . .he was helping my mom who was in a flood). But, even regularly, DH isn't home that much during the week as it is. It is hard on my oldest, I know.









You sound frustrated and overworked to me. Do you get any time for yourself? I am so short on patience when dh is away or not around for bedtime. I also need to take more time for myself, but the time just slips away. We'll have a third baby in April and I'm a little scared of being pulled in three directions (like you said) instead of just two- which is hard enough.

Honestly, when you write about the solutions you come up with (for the car seat and the bed slamming) I think, wow, what a great idea. It sounds like it works for you and your kids, too. Are you feeling like you're being too permissive or too manipulative? Do you think maybe you're being hard on yourself because you're stressed out and exhausted?


----------



## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
No, just the opposite. I was trying to make the point that pretty much everyone figures out a way to get their kids in carseats - not just people who are big on control and punishment, but CL folks, too.

Yep, that's just what I was trying to say - there are plenty of ways to control what your kids do without punishment (or without even thinking of it as control.)

Ok, I think I was just misunderstanding what you wrote.

Can you write more about what you think the differences are between UP and CL? I'm not wanting to debate you, just curious. I read UP awhile ago, but I remember it sounding like it fit right into CL.


----------



## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I am not very fond of Alfie Kohn or his UP stuff, but I don't think that you should feel bad about how you parent or be so quick to give up. Kids go through a lot of testing phases and it is hard to just have one child, three must sometimes be a nightmare but that doesn't mean that UP isn't working for you. I think that there are times when every mother questions her parenting style and feels to permissive and wonders why her kids don't seem to behave like others. If you have been feeling like this overall for a long time then I think that you should consider doing something a little more structured, but if you have been under a lot of stress lately and are seeing things through a frustrated and stressed out lens then you should give it a little more time and try doing some things to take down your stress level. I know that when I am under a lot of stress I tend to see things as always horrible and stressful but when I come out of the stress I am always glad that I didn't change what I do as a parent even when things were hard.


----------



## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riversong* 
Can you write more about what you think the differences are between UP and CL? I'm not wanting to debate you, just curious. I read UP awhile ago, but I remember it sounding like it fit right into CL.

Well, I may have the wrong idea about exactly what CL is supposed to be, but my impression is that in a CL family, parents don't try to be "in charge" or "in control." They don't tell their kids they _have_ to do X or _cannot_ do Y (except maybe if they're setting personal boundaries to protect themselves and their rights, like, "I will not let you hit me.") They work with their kids to come up with mutually agreeable plans and solutions to problems.

I think UP does fit in fine with that whole philosophy, but I don't think going along with the ideas in UP requires a CL approach. I think you can do UP and still tell your kids what to do. If they don't do what you told them to, you won't punish them or make them feel they're bad, but you don't have to just give up on the idea of controlling their behavior, either. I don't think you can follow UP if you're really into controlling everything your kids do and feel it's very important that you always have the last word about how things are going to go. But I think you can have (and feel okay about having) some control.


----------



## bright_eyes (Dec 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
UP . . .is it just a way of rationalizing permissiveness? Of saying, "There is really no way to control your children, so let's call it UP and be done with it." I know, control is a horrible word. But on a night like tonight, where I'm alone with my 3 kids and my 6 yo decides it's OK to bodyslam into her top bunk bed repeatedly (laughing) while I try to put the 3 yo to bed (in the bottom bunk) I'd like to have some sort of control.

Here's how I think of permissiveness and UP.

I think permissivenss is not even addressing a behaviour at all, just letting things happen or not happen. I think of it as a failure to teach children things like respect, boundaries, manners, ect. Giving in to their demands all the time. Not being very involved in your kids life.

But unconditional parenting is more about not using rewards and punishments to control your children. So not punishing them when they don't do what you want, and not rewarding them all the time when they do what you want. He speaks against people whose main objective in parenting is to gain and maintain control over their kids all the time.

I've decided that if you are an involved parent, if you treat your kids with respect, if you model kindness and respect to them, if you teach them about boundaries, manners, acceptable behaviour, empathy, ect, if you have a good relationship with them, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be a permissive parent. You may appear to be permissive at times, but I don't think you could be truly permissive.

So the bed jumping thing. It sounds to me like you dealt with it just fine. Just because it was a trying situation, and your dd didn't immediately comply to your demand to stop, doesn't mean that you are permissive. You didn't ignore the behaviour and you eventually found a solution for her (going camping in the hallway) and she stopped. You didn't threaten, punish, or bribe with a reward, which is what UP is all about.

Quote:

I'd like to have some sort of control.
What kind of control would you like to have? What would an ideal night look like? The kind where your dd would have immediately stopped body slamming the second that you asked her to stop, the kind where she always complies with every thing you want her to do or not do? It is possible to gain that type of control. But I don't think you can do it without causing damage to the relationship between you and your kids. And since you can't fully control anyone, even then, you wouldn't always have control over your kids. I don't think that is the type of control you are wanting, which is why I am asking you what sort of control would you like to have?


----------



## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Having 3 kids ages 6 and under is hard. It's hard to balance everyone's need for mom, especially when one child is high needs and/or young enough to still need a lot of physical contact with mom. IME, the big key to having things run smoothly is planning and creativity. But there are still hard times when all you can do is muddle through as best you can. With any luck, you learn from the times you muddle through, and the next time you meet that situation it's a little easier.

It does get easier as they get older. As they grow and need to be carried less, can do more things for themselves, understand more, develop better social skills, grow more patience....it gets much, much easier.

Until then, you do the best you can and try to trust that they _are_ learning and that things will not always be so hard. Remember to take care of yourself, too.


----------



## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

I don't try to be in control of my child. I try to be in control of myself. When something is triggering me, why? What is my concern? Is it really the breaking of the bed? Is that the worst that can happen? I might put the bed on the floor. I would express my feelings to my ds. I would try to move my energy away from not wanting the activity to happen, to wanting to connect with the child. I don't have three so I don't know what that looks like, but whenever I feel like I am freaking out and no one is listening, I try to look inward.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Magella* 
Having 3 kids ages 6 and under is hard. It's hard to balance everyone's need for mom, especially when one child is high needs and/or young enough to still need a lot of physical contact with mom. IME, the big key to having things run smoothly is planning and creativity. But there are still hard times when all you can do is muddle through as best you can. With any luck, you learn from the times you muddle through, and the next time you meet that situation it's a little easier.

It does get easier as they get older. As they grow and need to be carried less, can do more things for themselves, understand more, develop better social skills, grow more patience....it gets much, much easier.

Until then, you do the best you can and try to trust that they _are_ learning and that things will not always be so hard. Remember to take care of yourself, too.


It sounds to me like you handled it pretty well though, regardless of the circumstances. You explained things, and when that didn't work you got creative and suggested an alternative, that did work. UP doesn't mean not having what needs to happen happen - it means not making it happen through punishment and rewards. CL is more about not taking control, and I do try to be fairly CL but I readily admit to not being fully there because there are circumstances where I need things to happen. But I don't like getting into the pattern of punishing and rewarding because then I'm afraid things will only happen because and if I punish or give rewards, rather than simply because things need to happen.

Anyway, I think what you did was very in line with UP, though maybe not entirely with CL. Though even then you gave an alternative she was happy with and therefore found what appears to have been a mutually agreeable alternative. Regardless it was certainly consistent with gentle discipline. I guess, just don't be too hard on yourself.


----------



## Bird Girl (Mar 12, 2007)

Miz, I think you've really described my whole problem with the UP/CL "discipline" approach. There are just too many times when the strategies that are supposedly acceptable run up against a child who is not at all invested in doing what you prefer or is in fact heavily invested in pushing your buttons. What do you do then? Give up your idea of acceptable behavior, or resort to a more "controlling" tactic? It becomes a dilemma.

For me, I'm OK with the notion that sometimes I will be controlling my kids. Our house is not a democracy, and in fact, cannot be one, since I am the only person (when my DH isn't home







) who has adult-level logic, reasoning, and foresight. So sometimes my will must be enforced with a consequence. (Awful, I know.)

I'm not posting here to start a debate; if UP/CL is working for your family, then I'm delighted. But I don't think that a parent needs to turn themselves inside out trying to stay away from "control" when they personally need that to maintain a functional household. And I don't think that children benefit from a harried mother who is trying to preserve some mental peace in an environment where wild children are ruling the roost. When my six-year-old is overtired and acting out, I think that ultimately she is comforted by knowing that I will provide a behavioral backstop, taking over her physical control and providing a limit so that she can give in and get the rest she is craving.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bird Girl* 
Miz, I think you've really described my whole problem with the UP/CL "discipline" approach. There are just too many times when the strategies that are supposedly acceptable run up against a child who is not at all invested in doing what you prefer or is in fact heavily invested in pushing your buttons. What do you do then?

Ideally (and I'm not claiming that I always respond ideally), I'd be trying to figure out what's behind my child trying so hard to push my buttons. And trying to meet the underlying need/desire.

What if the 6yo wasn't tired yet? What if she was craving some one-on-one with her mommy? In that case, it wouldn't be very responsive parenting for Mommy to make her "give in and get rest."

I'm not saying there's an easy answer when the oldest of three children age 6 and under is pushing buttons -- I'm just saying it's worth looking into.

In the OP's case, it sounds like her daughter was very happy playing "camping" in the hallway. So her button-pushing may not have been a cry for more Mommy-time, but just a cry that "I'm not sleepy ... I'd like to do something interesting!"


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

The biggest gift I got from UP was giving up on worrying about whether I am being permissive or lenient or strict or .... I stopped thinking in terms of strategies.

The book was a tremendous eye opener as I thought through how I wanted to respond to my then quite difficult 3 year old with sensory issues and a tendency to be fine and then in complete meltdown mode: hitting and screaming.

It helped me get enough distance from the behavior and my reactions to them to see that my daughter was in pain. Physical pain from allergies to wheat and citrus. Emotional pain from being misunderstood and having trouble hearing.

I'm so relieved that I walked away from thinking/worrying/focusing on behavior and instead gave my energy to thinking/worrying/focusing on the relationship.

My dd is amazing. Incredible. Empathic. Kind. Supportive. at almost 8.

I cannot imagine the damage I would have done if I had not come across a different paradigm. I'm convinced that if we had gone another road, we would have ended up with mental health problems along with more serious physical health problems.

I've vowed never to be concerned again about whether someone calls me lenient or permissive or any other stinkin' thinkin' word. Living in fear of being permissive and thereby ruining my child was no more useful than being told that crying was good for my 2 week old's lungs.

ETA: How I'd likely handle the bed thing: "Geez, kid. That's scaring me alot... could you come down here and join the kitten pile? Nobody wants a freaked out mommy tonight."


----------



## justice'smom (Jun 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bird Girl* 
Miz, I think you've really described my whole problem with the UP/CL "discipline" approach. There are just too many times when the strategies that are supposedly acceptable run up against a child who is not at all invested in doing what you prefer or is in fact heavily invested in pushing your buttons. What do you do then? Give up your idea of acceptable behavior, or resort to a more "controlling" tactic? It becomes a dilemma.

For me, I'm OK with the notion that sometimes I will be controlling my kids. Our house is not a democracy, and in fact, cannot be one, since I am the only person (when my DH isn't home







) who has adult-level logic, reasoning, and foresight. So sometimes my will must be enforced with a consequence. (Awful, I know.)

I'm not posting here to start a debate; if UP/CL is working for your family, then I'm delighted. But I don't think that a parent needs to turn themselves inside out trying to stay away from "control" when they personally need that to maintain a functional household. And I don't think that children benefit from a harried mother who is trying to preserve some mental peace in an environment where wild children are ruling the roost. When my six-year-old is overtired and acting out, I think that ultimately she is comforted by knowing that I will provide a behavioral backstop, taking over her physical control and providing a limit so that she can give in and get the rest she is craving.









:

I am very new to gentle discipline and it has helped myself and my husband a lot. However there are countless times I go to my kids get on their level look them in the eye and tell them why I don't want them to do something and they do it again anyway. I'm not real quick on my feet so trying to think of things like go jump on mommies bed probably wouldn't come to me. So, how am I supposed to deal with that when they continue to do the same thing over and over again. I move things out of reach when possible or leave a place, but moving things is not always possible. I always explain to them also that mommy is not their enemy and am not trying to spoil their fun and when I tell them not to do something I always have a reason. I then explain my reasons that I say no for.
Mama I hear your frustration and I am right there with ya. Everything you just said could be my post. Well, with the exception that I don't have that many kids yet. I appreciate you posting this because I need the help. I personally think your doing a great job. Give yourself some credit. Not all kids are the same and not all kids are going to react to the dare I say, same discipline. I don't care what form you use there are some kids out there that are not going to do well with it. Just my thoughts.


----------



## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

The responses that you all have written have truly helped me think about things. . .I think what I've gotten out of all of this is much more basic than I would have thought, but very useful:
(1) Just because I make suggestions that help everyone be content, it doesn't mean I am bribing/manipulating my children (even if they involve some sugar!)
(2) Parenting isn't about perfection; it's about progress
(3) There are really no easy answers in those moments where everyone (3 children + my own) has high needs and it is only me. I can't fall into the trap of thinking "If I were a better parent" or "I've failed to teach my children respect" or any other such negative thoughts. I shouldn't let those moments define me as a parent
(4) Embracing the idea that my children are ALWAYS doing the best they can is my favorite mantra right now; it allows me to truly be there for them without expectations

Thanks so much, everyone.


----------

