# PROM @ 33w4d, breech presentation, currently home AMA--support please



## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Hi Mamas,

This will have to be short as I'm needing rest right now.

I was cottaging 7 hours from home on an island with no road access when my membranes ruptured suddenly at 33w4d. I went to the local hospital, then was airlifted to the next hospital that can take 33w4d babies...which also happened to be in my hometown. DP drove home with the kids while I flew. Since then, it's been good news....baby is doing well, BPP good, all NSTs good, I proceeded with 2 shots of steroids, got the 24 hours of abx, continuing oral abx, strep b negative.

When I first got there, they said I should be able to go home the next day after doing all of above if baby was well. Then they realized I am planning a vaginal breech delivery. Here, they "won't" do it. I am not going to go into details now about why a vag breech delivery is safe etc because I'm just exhausted, but I'm confident in my decision. I have an activist midwife who feels strongly about supporting me and is doing all she can to find out which OBs are on call where when so I can hopefully have a more supportive environment for this planned vag birth.

You might recall my previous discussion about me being concerned that the baby was breech because of the fact that no hospital in town is really very receptive to doing vag breech deliveries. Well, being 34 weeks (tomorrow), they really don't want to do a vag breech, and not only that but it's narrowed my options fro hospital choices since not all hospitals can care for preemies.

Thankfully, I have a supportive midwife, who in fact co-authored the BMJ homebirth article, and who has been an activist on the topic of vaginal breech deliveries. I've been in touch with the breech birth coalition in town.

I was totally prepared to fight the vag breech fight, and I think my midwife might have even done it at home against the college practices, but at 34 weeks we agree that we need to have some perinatologists around. I am still prepared to fight, but dear god this has complicated things for me. I don't know as much about premature babies, and so I find myself questioning and even doubting sometimes. It's going to be so hard to fight this to the end.

I do believe it is the right choice, and one I need to fight for. I have good support, and my midwife will be present (and what an advocate she is!).

It's just been so hard. They decided to keep me in the hospital when they figured out that I am planning a vag breech birth...saying if they discharged me that there would be agreater risk of my not making it back in time to get a c-section. Well, since I don't want one ...







: why would I accept that as a reason? Then of course they made other false threats. They've been awful. Every day there it was a new nurse every 12 hours and a new OB resident regularly telling me what horrible things are going to happen to my baby if I have a breech birth, some of them even telling me they just don't do it.

I'm caught up in this drama right now of course, but I'm not missing the subtle sadness that is in the background...some of you may know my birth history...they've all been pretty bad. This one was going to be my first homebirth...uncomplicated, natural, beautiful in every way. It's already tarnished and I'm angry at how I've already been treated, and the birth hasn't even happened yet. But, because of my past experiences and trauma, I know that I have to stand up for myself and do what I know is right. If I give in based on fear and their pressure, I will have a whole lot more anger and trauma coming out of the experience. I also feel I need to take a stand for all women...and for birth. I so clearly see what is wrong...decisions being made without giving the people who need to make those decisions real information to do so. Some fights just need to be had.

I would appreciate even your thoughts at this time, and well wishes for the birth. I don't know when I'll come to "battle" (and I so wish I could have a non-hostile birthing environment), and when baby will come, but I really need your support right now.

I'm also worried that if anything should go wrong for any reason, it will be blamed on me because I refused a c-section. I'm sure that would be the case, even if incorrect. I need to be prepared for that possibility. Being confident in my knowledge that choosing a vaginal delivery is equally safe for baby and more safe for me helps a lot, but when it comes to our children, we are vulnerable to misinformation about anything that we might do that could harm them.

So that's all for now, and I apologize for the jumbled nature of this post. Right now everything's good with me and the baby and I'm just waiting it out. I'll be going in as an outpatient to do NSTs and while I'm there will be speaking to the OBs...which will be hard because now that I've left AMA I'm sure they'll only step up their pressure and hard line threats to try and get me back.








:

BTW, this baby is getting one crazy adventurous name.


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## MidwifeErika (Jun 30, 2005)

I just wanted to give you a hug because you seem like you could use one. You have been through a whole lot right now and I hope it all goes easily and smoothly from here. I am sure whatever choices you make will be right for you and your baby.


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## DucetteMama21842 (May 11, 2006)

Definetely sending hugs your way mama! It sounds like you have some awesome support in your midwife, but let us know if you need any other resources to back you up. My cousin delivered vaginally at 28 weeks... and baby is healthy and thriving at 6 months old now. I know it wasn't breech- but I thought it might give you some confidence. And most importantly mama...

*YOU CAN DO IT!!!!!*

We're behind you every step of the way.


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## liberal_chick (May 22, 2005)

Just a quick question from me: are you still leaking fluid? I experienced the same thing as you only much, much earlier and, b/c I never retained any fluid, I was told it was not wise to go past 34 weeks (at which point the threat of cord problems outweigh the risk of prematurity). I was able to confirm that online. Just curious if you had discussed anything like that with your midwife at all.








s


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## Banana731 (Aug 4, 2006)

So sorry! But at least you have that great midwife behind you! I hope you are able to find an OB who supports your decision. I think you can do it mom. You're in my thoughts, good luck!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Are you in labor? There are cases of membranes re-sealing and fluid collecting again and labor not happening until close to date.

I will think strong re-sealing and baby staying in longer thoughts for you.

-Angela


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## DoomaYula (Aug 22, 2006)

I had a feet-first breech at 34w2d. He was a second twin, his brother was vertex. It was fine -- although they did need the NICU for about a week, because they couldn't quite suck yet.

YOU CAN BIRTH THIS BABY!


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## echospiritwarrior (Jun 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 









Are you in labor? There are cases of membranes re-sealing and fluid collecting again and labor not happening until close to date.

I will think strong re-sealing and baby staying in longer thoughts for you.

-Angela

I'll be here with Angela- what a wonderful outcome that would be.







and blessings


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 









Are you in labor? There are cases of membranes re-sealing and fluid collecting again and labor not happening until close to date.

I will think strong re-sealing and baby staying in longer thoughts for you.

-Angela

Thanks mama, but definitely not resealing yet...as of yesterday was at 25mL of fluid, and still leaking as replenishing.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YumaDoula* 
I had a feet-first breech at 34w2d. He was a second twin, his brother was vertex. It was fine -- although they did need the NICU for about a week, because they couldn't quite suck yet.

YOU CAN BIRTH THIS BABY!


Thanks mama.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

i'll be thinking of you...good for you for standing your ground and knowing your stuff. there is still a good chance babe could turn or the leak could seal...


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liberal_chick* 
Just a quick question from me: are you still leaking fluid? I experienced the same thing as you only much, much earlier and, b/c I never retained any fluid, I was told it was not wise to go past 34 weeks (at which point the threat of cord problems outweigh the risk of prematurity). I was able to confirm that online. Just curious if you had discussed anything like that with your midwife at all.








s

Things are all looking well so far in terms of fluid levels...though of course we'd all prefer there be an intact sac. There is not much risk of cord prolapse because the baby is in a frank breech position (which I'm so grateful for).


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

I agree with you that vaginal breech births are just as safe for the baby as C-sections. I was just reading last night about the topic on EMedicine, and that's what they said there. I think your main concern right now is with the prematurity issue.








I support whatever you choose, and hoping for a healthy baby and a healthy you.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfThePride* 
I agree with you that vaginal breech births are just as safe for the baby as C-sections. I was just reading last night about the topic on EMedicine, and that's what they said there. I think your main concern right now is with the prematurity issue.

I agree. I wish it wasn't being MADE into the breech being the bigger problem. I should be able to focus on my potentially preemie newborn, and worry about that, not about the birth environment where I can't trust the staff and dealing with their threats at such a vulnerable time







: .


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Bummer.

Wishing you the strength you need and a safe birth whenever it happens.

-Angela


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## littlecityfarmer (Apr 27, 2004)

Stay healthy, mamma and baby! You _can_ have the birth you want, even in a hospital, despite the complications! It sounds like you have great advocate in your midwife-- can she talk some sense into the MDs re: safety of vag breech?


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## mamamoo (Apr 29, 2002)

Thinking of you mama.


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## Nan'sMom (May 23, 2005)

Just lending a vote of support for your informed decision on what you think is best for you and your baby. I'm sorry this is happening and causing you so much stress! Sending re-sealing thoughts and happy birthing vibes to you as well!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I'm sorry to hear that the hospital staff is giving you such a hard time. I hope you run into someone supportive there.


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## hetaera (Mar 1, 2006)

Im thinking of you.
I hope you can keep that baby cooking a little longer so it wont be much of an issue.

My son was born at 35 weeks. I did have the steroids for his lungs but he was just fine. He went to the NICU for observation but didnt need any help whatsoever. I am sorry you have to deal with all this drama. Its really a shame.
big hugs, I know you will get through this.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Thank you mamas; your support means so much. I don't have a lot of friends or family IRL who understand; I get the impression that while they want to be supportive they mostly think medical professionals do always know best and should always be listened to.


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## Jster (Apr 22, 2003)

sanguine, sending you a huge







!! Sorry you're going through all this pressure to have intervention...I'm sure your heart will give you the right path for you and your baby! Keeping you both in my thoughts


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## beemama (Mar 19, 2004)

So sorry you've already endured such trauma... but you are strong! You can do it!
Lots of prayers & thoughts going out to you & your little one.


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Hey it's you!

I'm glad you're home, at least that gets you away from the every-12-hours-explaining AGAIN thing. Thinking of you... call any time, I have my cell back from DH now.

BTW how are you measuring your water leakage? I didn't know that was possible... also praying for a re-seal...

Do you have to be 37w before you can get to the Mft instead? I have the impression from BA that they're more open minded there...

xo Robin


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## Brilliantmama (Sep 28, 2006)

Follow your heart and gut.

FWIW, Abby (my "step" daughter) was born at 34 weeks and was only 3 lbs (tiny genetics via bio-mom and single artery umbilical cord.)

BUT . . . she only had to work on feeding, she breathed on her own completely, kept her temp regulated, and did just fine.

And I know that your little one is big (about 5lbs right?) like mine, so he or she will likely do just fine longterm.

Prematurity is super scary, but 34 weeks is awesome compared to the challenges faced by the micro-ones (20-25 weeks!)

Hugs, love, and PEACE to you and the tiny one inside. Trust yourself, you are his/her best protector.


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Quote:

I get the impression that while they want to be supportive they mostly think medical professionals do always know best and should always be listened to.
Gd forbid that professional should be your exceptionally knowledgeable and experienced midwife.







: I'm so, so glad you have her.


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## ashleep (Jul 20, 2004)

Sending you strength mama! You can do this!








reseal reseal reseal!!


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## Nettie (May 26, 2005)

You have my support along with everyone else. I also wish they would just focus on the preemie aspect and leave you alone about the breech.
I'm also curious as to whether your m/w could advocate with the hospital in some way about the safety of v. breech birth. Couldn't you just sign waivers accepting the responsibility of any potential risks or consequences of your decision? (I'm not agreeing with them that it's dangerous at all; just trying to think on their level.)
I'm sorry you're dealing with this and hope that it turns out much better than you expect.


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## AugustLia23 (Mar 18, 2004)

Wow, you sound like you are dealing with SO MUCH! First off, I'm so sorry you lost your easy breezy homebirth! Best laid plans, right?!?

Anyways, good for you to stand up for yourself, stay true to that, and know that you are making the best decision for yourself and baby. It's so hoorible the things doctors tell you to get you to do what *they* want you do do. It seems they are not used to not getting their way these days.

Weren't you saying a while back that baby was measuring big? That can only help you in this situation. Hopefully he or she will hold on a bit longer until it's time for him/her to come out, then do so peacefully, possibly still at home.

Are you dosing up on vitamin C? I might even prefer that over abx if it were me.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Robinna* 
Hey it's you!

I'm glad you're home, at least that gets you away from the every-12-hours-explaining AGAIN thing. Thinking of you... call any time, I have my cell back from DH now.

BTW how are you measuring your water leakage? I didn't know that was possible... also praying for a re-seal...

Do you have to be 37w before you can get to the Mft instead? I have the impression from BA that they're more open minded there...

xo Robin


Hi Robin...thanks and glad to see you here!
They measured my fluid at an u/s the other day. I'm still leaking quite a bit so no seal yet I don't think. Going in for an NST today and potentially BPP. The Mft would be at 36 weeks. Only 2 weeks, right? But, I'm having a lot of labour prep stuff going on...I don't think i'll make 36 weeks. The good news is that there is some discussion going on in the birthing community and I may end up with a more sympathetic OB in attendance.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brilliantmama* 
Follow your heart and gut.

FWIW, Abby (my "step" daughter) was born at 34 weeks and was only 3 lbs (tiny genetics via bio-mom and single artery umbilical cord.)

BUT . . . she only had to work on feeding, she breathed on her own completely, kept her temp regulated, and did just fine.

And I know that your little one is big (about 5lbs right?) like mine, so he or she will likely do just fine longterm.

Prematurity is super scary, but 34 weeks is awesome compared to the challenges faced by the micro-ones (20-25 weeks!)

Hugs, love, and PEACE to you and the tiny one inside. Trust yourself, you are his/her best protector.










Thank you so much.
If I knew I could have a supported vag delivery I would not be very concerned at all about the premature status, knowing my baby has done well, is well-developed, had steroids a couple days ago, etc. That's part of my difficulty I guess; the people in my life aren't really getting what a big deal a c-section would be, so I feel unsupported. I really appreciate the support I've gotten here and through others in the community as well.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Robinna* 
Gd forbid that professional should be your exceptionally knowledgeable and experienced midwife.







: I'm so, so glad you have her.

I know. I consider myself strong and determined (and loudmouthed), but without her, well, let's just say it's plain to see how women are forced into c-sections routinely. What a difficult fight, and I have so much going for me in terms of advocacy and personal conviction. Even with all that it's so, so much to face.


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## DucetteMama21842 (May 11, 2006)

Now that's good news! Just wanted you to know I'm still thinking of you! You're all going to do great!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nettie* 
You have my support along with everyone else. I also wish they would just focus on the preemie aspect and leave you alone about the breech.
I'm also curious as to whether your m/w could advocate with the hospital in some way about the safety of v. breech birth. Couldn't you just sign waivers accepting the responsibility of any potential risks or consequences of your decision? (I'm not agreeing with them that it's dangerous at all; just trying to think on their level.)
I'm sorry you're dealing with this and hope that it turns out much better than you expect.









Oh believe me, she is doing a TONNE of advocacy. She's been on the phone for days talking to people and trying to find particular OBs she knows might be available/willing to assist.
They just "won't" do it. They don't want to. There is not a choice here. But I'm not accepting that. Of course there is a choice.

It's about the birthing climate here...it's not caught up with current literature, and vaginal breech births are just considered a big fat "no". I had an OB tell me the other day that they just won't do it. I asked her whether there was a spare corner in the parking lot they were going to dump me when I refused.
Then of course, they start in even more on the scare tactics to "convince" me that I'm going to hurt or kill my baby. I put "convince" in quotations because it certainly is more forceful than that word would imply. It makes me sick that they're so patronizing.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AugustLia23* 
Weren't you saying a while back that baby was measuring big? That can only help you in this situation. Hopefully he or she will hold on a bit longer until it's time for him/her to come out, then do so peacefully, possibly still at home.

Are you dosing up on vitamin C? I might even prefer that over abx if it were me.

Yes, 2 weeks ago, I was measuring 5lbs 10ounces at u/s, but of course we all agreed how off those can be. Funnily, at my BPP the other day the baby was measuring 5lbs 10ounces also (just under 2600g for those who work in metric). I do think that should work in my favour also.

I will be definitely doing vitamin C. So much I didn't know before; it's so hard to suddenly make decisions about things I know nothing about when really not being provided with information to make informed decisions.


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## Sheal (Apr 19, 2007)

I've seen a lady go through it twice in the same pg in hospital while I was in hospital on bed rest for my pg with my older daughter!!! Twice, same woman, same pg!!! It's not unheard of


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## jmhammond (Mar 30, 2005)

MAMA!!! I've been reading and trying to come up with the perfect thing to say. You've gotten a lot of great advice frome people who know a lot more than me, thank goodness for MDC!!!

I just want to encourage you that MANY people are praying and wishing great birthing vibes for you, whenever that happens, NOW, or in a few weeks!! I hope that when/if you have to go back to the hospital, you will find at least ONE person who will treat you as a person and not scare you, but support you. Thank GOD for your MW!!

Just a plug also for Emergen-C and pro-biotics! Blessings to you; you'll be in my thoughts and prayers all day!


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## leanbh (Mar 22, 2007)

for resealing!!!

my thoughts and prayers are with you!

all the best to you and yours!


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## forestrymom (Jul 13, 2006)

Wow Mama! I'm floored! I am pulling for you, your vaginal breech delivery, and your sweet lo! I am so sorry you are going through all the drama, and it irritates me to no end. I was "convinced" to have a c-section because of a breech baby, and I am happy to know someone is fighting the fight i didn't know I should fight!

My nephew was born at 31weeks 6 days. He breathed on his own from the start, was big (4 lbs 14 oz) and they definitely said that was in his favor, and he maintained his own body temperature. He had suck problems, and remained in the nicu for 4 weeks because he couldn't maintain his weight, but he is now a very strong, healthy, happy 21 month old! There was never a worry about him, aside from the normal newborn worries and the suck thing, but they knew eventually he would overcome that.

I know you can do it!


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## ATruck (Mar 6, 2006)

to you.

My situation was very different as my water broke at 34w0d, , no (and was much more of a gush). I had to give up my planned homebirth and go to the hospital. Full blown labor started about 8 hours later (I had to fight off the drs wanting to start pitocin immediately) and my daughter was born vaginally a few hours afterward.

There are several things that I wish that I had done differently, but the main one is-- I wish that I had known how to keep her out of the NICU. Obviously, for many babes, that is where they need to be, but mine was fine-- never needed oxygen, etc. I didn't know any better, and let them whisk my nearly 6 pound healthy daughter away. She spent 6 days there, being observed for possible apnea and then was kept longer for jaundice. That was 6 days of being largely alone in a bassinet, probably crying alone, not feeding on demand, spending time in her own excrement. In the NICU, they are on a strict feeding/changing/being held schedule. In the one where my daughter was, there are also many ours that the area is "closed" and you can't even visit your own child. Once a baby has been admitted to the NICU, it is difficult to get them released, until there is absolutely nothing going on with them. My baby didn't need to be there to have a bili-blanket, yet for the last 3 days, that was the only reason given for her being there.

I have recently heard of a woman who gave birth in the same hospital at 34w, who kept her baby out of the NICU by insisting (with her mw help) that the baby nurse right away, to prove that she was okay. They reasoned that if the baby latched on right away, she must be okay enough to not need to be in the NICU. Maybe this could help you. If your baby is healthy enough to stay out of the NICU, I implore you to do everything you can to keep him/her out of there.

Sorry to go off .. I know that your situation is different, with the breech issue, etc. I hope the babe stays put, and you are able to welcome him/her at home as you wish.


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## hapersmion (Jan 5, 2007)

Oh, good luck and stay strong!

I have never regretted my vaginal breech birth, though he wasn't premature. Don't let those doctors put you at risk for their own convenience!

I've heard stories where people have gone several weeks with broken water and no labor (or problems because of the broken water). Even though you say you seem to be gearing up for labor, maybe you can go a little bit longer - even 35 weeks isn't so early, right?

Anyway, I hope everything goes well for you. *good birthing thoughts*

hapersmion


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Quote:

I had an OB tell me the other day that they just won't do it. I asked her whether there was a spare corner in the parking lot they were going to dump me when I refused.
Ruefully LMAO


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Sending good vibes your way....


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## g&a (Dec 15, 2004)

This has probably already been discussed, but couldn't your midwife be in charge for the labour, and the preemie docs in charge of the baby?? My midwife does something similar if you end up with a c-section - the mother's care is transferred to the doc, but the midwife gets the baby as soon as it is born. Midwives here (alberta) can admit to hospital, I suppose that is key.
That way it doesn't matter if they don't agree with a breech birth. I would still want a midwife instead of an ob with me during labour even if baby was premature.

Hope all goes well. Stay Strong!

g.


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## letniaLynne (Jun 2, 2006)

Don't let them sway you! This is your child and your choice. I hate how in this country you can easily "choose" to abort your baby but you have a hard time choosing how to birth your baby.







:

Since you said you don't have much NICU experience I thought I would send you this link. I don't have any NICU experience either but it is my biggest fear. It seems that the parents really can loose control of their babe once they get admitted, especially if they are not informed on how some wonderful NICU's around the world operate (and how really horrible ones can basically restrict parental access). This link talks directly about how to care for preemies in a very gentle touch related manner. It might help you vocalize the care you want your babe to receive after the birth if they have to be admitted.

I think this quote below is especially important to the premee BFing relationship since many NICU's seem to basically force the parents to bottle feed or else the babe can never go home and many will never even allow the babe to BF. It is horrible that they won't even allow the parents to try. Never mind that they don't even care that bottle feeding brings on a HUGE risk at that age of nipple preference leading many times to totally failed BFing. (I would say skip the bottles and all costs, stay a longer in the NICU if you have to just avoid them, use other devices if necessary, cups, syringe what ever it takes to get your babe fed without a bottle. Also pump like crazy if your babe does not bf right away, have it lined up at the birth just incase it is needed, I have heard stories where it took HOURS for the docs to even locate one within the hospital
















"While it was observed that ability to suck on a bottle only started at 34 weeks post-conceptional age, recent research has shown that suckling from the breast is possible at 28 weeks. Suckling is a myographically distinct behavior from sucking, and research on sucking on bottles of premature infants shows it clearly to be stressful. Premature infants are unable to coordinate their breathing and their swallowing. "

HUGS!!!







: Good vibes for a Safe and happy birth & BFing relationship.


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Hugs and happy vibes! Praying for some resealing! Hang in there, I know you can do it!


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *g&a* 
This has probably already been discussed, but couldn't your midwife be in charge for the labour, and the preemie docs in charge of the baby?? My midwife does something similar if you end up with a c-section - the mother's care is transferred to the doc, but the midwife gets the baby as soon as it is born. Midwives here (alberta) can admit to hospital, I suppose that is key.
That way it doesn't matter if they don't agree with a breech birth. I would still want a midwife instead of an ob with me during labour even if baby was premature.

Hope all goes well. Stay Strong!

g.

That's *supposed* to be the case in Ontario too, but there's a disconnect between the Midwifery guidelines and what the hospitals will allow. Although breech, vbac etc are within the scope of Ontario Midwifery practice, hospital policy dictates that these are "high risk" and obliges MWs to transfer clients to OB care upon arrival. MWs who don't cooperate are at risk of losing their priviledges... you see the problem. I don't know what happens if the mama flat-out refuses OB care in the hospital and insists on being attended by her MW. In theory, the MW can't get in trouble if she dotted & crossed all of her i's and t's, but since MW priviledges are granted by the OBs at the hospital... hmmm... conflict of interest, a little? I would not be surprised if you were to run into the same problem iwth AB hospitals. It's a snobbery thing.

The MW in question (I know her too) is VERY qualified to catch a breech. But the hospital with the neonatal wing isn't "her" hospital and has only "courtesy" priviledges with MWs (ie if they come in with their transported/transferred client, they can stay and are counted as staff not as a client's "guest", but they are there only on the grace of the head OB). In fact, this hospital, because it has recently gone into nearly exclusively "high risk" birth, actually revoked previously existing MW priviledges late last year.

The whole thing is so freakin' stupid.

Sorry for highjacking hon!!!

xo Robin


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## Earthy Birthy (Sep 26, 2004)

to you, mama. I would focus on becoming well-educated about 34 wkers (there have already been a couple of great links and info posted earlier in the thread), so that you are armed w/ info.

The whole breech situation has gotten out of control, and your case is a perfect example. Stay hydrated, load up on vitamin C and echinacea, and let your mw do what she can to help you. Meanwhile, you focus on your baby.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Thank you!

I went in today for a non-stress test, as the resident told me to do when I told her I was leaving. She showed me where to register and which desk to go to for the NST. She said I could come regularly to check up on the baby.

Today I arrived and they did the NST then the OB came in and said that I would no longer be eligible for any outpatient services. I must be readmitted or I get nothing. No follow up NSTs or ultrasounds. I am calling the College of Physicians and Surgeons just to make a fuss about such poor ethics. Obviously he is trying to coerce me into staying.

He did admit that they cannot make me have a c-section, and that of course they would be forced to allow me to proceed with a vaginal birth if I insisted. He then tried to point out that things can change during labour and a c-section might become necessary, and that I need to trust the OB so that if something like that happens and a c-section becomes necessary I will accept it. I did tell him that I understand that cesarian delivery can save lives, and that sometimes they are necessary, but how am I supposed to trust the opinion of a random OB I've never met whose mindframe was from the beginning that the c-section was necessary just because the baby was presenting breech?







: I pointed out that my midwife would be in attendance and that I would be considering her perspective. He made a bunch of rude comments about how she shouldn't be involved etc. He said she can't make decisions for me. I told him that I was making my own decisions, and that I would consider the opinion of the care provider I've had and trust in addition to the opinion of the man who already thinks I'm supposed to have a c-section.

Someone mentioned priveleges....yes, technically she should have assisting priveleges now, and attending priveleges at 35 weeks with a physician present. The OB brought up (and the one who is mine is the head OB) the fact that a c-section becomes more dangerous with the lower comfort levels of the attending physician. I pointed out that there would be a perfectly qualified, capable and willing attendant at the birth and how convenient for them!

I called him out on the literature, asking him what he thought of particular studies on vaginal breech births, including the term breech trial and the follow-up, and he really didn't have a good answer for me. He just went into a spiel about how most doctors won't do vaginal breech deliveries in Canada and it's not just him, etc. What he didn't tell me is that he has at least one OB on his own staff perfectly willing to do so, and not thinking it such a big deal. My midwife spoke to this man this morning, and while he's not willing to come in for me off-call, he would be happy to proceed with my planned vag breech when he's in on his 2 days a week.

I gave him specific reasons why I did not feel I should be sitting in the hospital indefinitely waiting for this baby. He noted that there had been several conversations between me and others (nurses, OBs, residents) about the topic, and I told him that yes, there have. And they've been abusive and disconnected. The first day I was told I wouldn't stay if I was stable. That I would have outpatient care, even a nurse coming to my home to monitor occasionally. Then I was told I had to stay. I never met this OB that I met today, nor did I ever know my care had been transfered to him. I was in for a full two-and-a-half days. I was told I would meet with neonatology on a certain day. I didn't that day or the next. What benefit of my being there? He tried to tell me there was an increased risk of cord prolapse; I told him I had a frank breech and the risk is much lower. He stopped that argument. Then he had the infection argument. I pointed out I had sat through their IV antibiotics and continued oral antibiotics as prescribed (even though yeah, I'm only partly convinced this is necessary--which I didn't say). He left that alone. Finally it came down to "you should realize how lucky you are to have an antenatal bed...they're hard to get and blah blah blah). In reality, I could be sitting there indefinitely. I've been fine. No bleeding. Baby moving. All NSTs good. BPP good. I just hate that I'm being bullied like this. And now with refusing to do any outpatient monitoring...well, it's obviously manipulative and meant to be a threat. I cannot stay in that environment for potentially a couple weeks.

Just had to get some of that conversation out with people who might understand. I'm glad DP was there. I couldn't have faced the staunchest, most conservative head of obstetrics on my own with a nurse literally laughing out loud at me for being so obviously silly when I pointed out that the practice of an automatic c-section for breech presentation is not in keeping up with current literature.

Okay, enough venting.

If I make 36 weeks, I mosey on down to the hospital where my midwife does have priveleges and we birth the baby. That would be ideal at this point, though I'm getting so mad I almost want to go to their hostile hospital and scream at them while I push a baby out of my vagina bum-first.







:

I do fear that there will be backlash against me and the baby because when the baby is born they will have a way of regaining power over me. Things like threats, unnecessary testing, half-truths, and just not making things easy for us.

Sigh.


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## forestrymom (Jul 13, 2006)

Do you, at this point, have a written plan in place for care after the baby is born...dos and don'ts, etc? If you don't, I suggest you get one, and have signatures that all the OBs and the hospital have received it. This might put the control back in your corner.

And I am steaming mad for you--so you stop being mad and try to relax enough to keep that baby inside you, girl!


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## mom3b1? (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm absolutely sure you are right about vaginal breech births. I'd do the same thing.

I was born at 32 weeks after PROM in 1964. It happened that my Dad was a med student at the only hospital in the world with an NICU.

I'm not so sure I wouldn't have been better off born at home. I was entubated, and ended up with very serious RSV, and spent the first three years of my life in and out of the hospital. I think the entubating introduced the infections.

This was 1964, and a lot of stuff they have now hadn't even been thought of. Mom did get steroids, but they induced right away instead of letting me bake a little longer like you're doing. After that, I had an extremely healthy childhood and life. I hardly ever get sick.

At that time I think they were entubating the way they c/s for breech. They assume it's somehow good for the baby, and I'm not so sure it is in every case or even most cases.

Anyway, I hope you get what you want. I think you are doing really well. I'm so glad you've got a good MW fighting for you.

Kiley


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

I'm so proud of you for standing up to the sOB!

Like forestrymom said, you should make a birth plan. Also you shouldn't sign the general consent for care for yourself or your baby. Tell them that you _must_ approve of each individual thing they want to do.


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## mamamoo (Apr 29, 2002)

OMG mama, I am so steaming mad for you. I can not believe how crappy yhe care is, and how can they deny you outpatient care!?!? Isn't there a law or something about that? Grrr...

You stand your ground mama, what an amazing woman you are. I think I would have been a blubbering mess trying to have a conversation with such a jerk off.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

You're amazing and an inspiration. I hope you have a good outcome to all of this, and are respected by the hospital.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Thanks again mamas for your support. I have been having some contractions and I'm a little concerned this might be it soon. I'll keep you updated and I truly truly appreciate your kind words.


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## jmhammond (Mar 30, 2005)

I think someone mentioned it already, but I've heard really great things too about the Dr. Sears Preemie book, if you have access to a library, or bookstore...







I'm still praying!


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Can they really deny you outpatient care? Can BA get it for you at the Mft? That is absolutely unacceptable, paternalistic patronizing CRAP.

I totally get what you mean - wanting to SHOW them.

You are so strong. You are truly an inspiration.

xo Robin


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## stacyg (Oct 19, 2004)

: for you and the babe!







So glad you are standing up for what you believe in!


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sanguine_speed* 
Thank you mamas; your support means so much. I don't have a lot of friends or family IRL who understand; I get the impression that while they want to be supportive they mostly think medical professionals do always know best and should always be listened to.


My twin sister and my husband were the only ones in my family who truly supported my vbac. I relied heavily on the support of MDC and my midwife. It made such a difference to me. During my labor, I thought of all the kind words from MDC mamas and the successful vbac stories they shared, despite the opposition they faced. It helped me tremendously. You CAN get through this too!

Keep strong mama, and trust your intuition.

Thinking of you,

Amy


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## Plaid Leopard (Sep 26, 2003)

Thinking of youand hoping all goes well.
You are a strong mama for standing up for yourself and your baby at this time.


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## go4it (Jan 15, 2007)

What a crazy, shocking story... I've only just tuned in. It sounds like a blessing that this baby is a biggie to begin with, although naturally, I would like to give things a little longer to finish baking...

I have wondered that about breeches in Ontario also since I first read the transfer of care guidelines 3 years ago... like you said about the parking lot; what do they do if you insist on birthing vaginally? Or at least, refusing the c/s without a "trial" of pushing?

Your mw sounds so capable & experienced... what a relief. Sadly, I would doubt the ability of newer Ontario mw's to deliver breech bc the guidelines are so restrictive - I doubt many newcomers have the practical experience. Too bad, bc this used to be a huge part of the art of midwifery. :-(((

Anyway, in case this really is it, ELV and extra-super healing vibes to you & baby...


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## HeatherB (Jan 30, 2003)

Thinking of you and praying the babe stays put a week or two longer! I am *amazed* at how well you've stood up for yourself and your baby! Truly amazing and an incredible heritage for your little one to have a mama who cares SO deeply about doing things the best way possible.

Hugs to you! Keep us posted!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *go4it* 
Your mw sounds so capable & experienced... what a relief. Sadly, I would doubt the ability of newer Ontario mw's to deliver breech bc the guidelines are so restrictive - I doubt many newcomers have the practical experience. Too bad, bc this used to be a huge part of the art of midwifery. :-(((



In reality, they hardly ever do catch breeches anymore. I'm just very fortunate to have this particular midwife so passionate about the issue (and experienced). What's eating at me now is that I'm being told by so many OBs that my baby is at an increased risk just because OBs don't have experience doing vaginal breech deliveries. While my perfectly capable, qualified, experienced and capable midwife must stand uselessly by. The OBs in question ought to be grateful for the opportunity to practice something that they ought to know they need to brush up on.







: This is all so, so wrong.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeatherB* 
Thinking of you and praying the babe stays put a week or two longer! I am *amazed* at how well you've stood up for yourself and your baby! Truly amazing and an incredible heritage for your little one to have a mama who cares SO deeply about doing things the best way possible.

Hugs to you! Keep us posted!

Thanks mama. I appreciate your support a lot.

I have had birth trauma in the past from bad experiences. But I went to counseling in the interim, and I realized most of the trauma was because I felt I was not listened to. Not only that, but that I didn't stand up for myself as much as I could have. This time, I will not be bullied into doing things that are unnecessary and harmful. Like I said, I already feel some injury from the abusive treatment I've received, and I will probably have to deal with this anger later on too, but it would be much worse if I were sitting in a hospital bed right now doing nothing but waiting for my inevitable c-section. After this is done, I will have to participate in the process of change that is so slow and arduous. I can't just accept this.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sanguine_speed* 
Thanks mama. I appreciate your support a lot.

I have had birth trauma in the past from bad experiences. But I went to counseling in the interim, and I realized most of the trauma was because I felt I was not listened to. Not only that, but that I didn't stand up for myself as much as I could have. This time, I will not be bullied into doing things that are unnecessary and harmful. Like I said, I already feel some injury from the abusive treatment I've received, and I will probably have to deal with this anger later on too, but it would be much worse if I were sitting in a hospital bed right now doing nothing but waiting for my inevitable c-section. After this is done, I will have to participate in the process of change that is so slow and arduous. I can't just accept this.

You are so brave and strong. I know I said this yesterday, but you are an inspiration. It is this bullying (and giving in to it ) that is the most traumatic and frightening aspect of childbirth to me.

Julia


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sanguine_speed* 
In reality, they hardly ever do catch breeches anymore. I'm just very fortunate to have this particular midwife so passionate about the issue (and experienced). What's eating at me now is that I'm being told by so many OBs that my baby is at an increased risk just because OBs don't have experience doing vaginal breech deliveries. While my perfectly capable, qualified, experienced and capable midwife must stand uselessly by. The OBs in question ought to be grateful for the opportunity to practice something that they ought to know they need to brush up on.







: This is all so, so wrong.

So have they acknowledged in principle that you're within your rights, at least? Idiots. Now they're trying the tactic that was used on me - "I can't do it safely, I'd probably hurt your baby..." Bst. If they were really that concerned about their skills and that they would injure the babe, they'd back off let BA catch. I mean seriously.

Have you given thought to what you're going to allow for the birth itself? There are a lot of ways to "manage" breech delivery, the safest of which is to let you move around and birth in whatever position your body requires of you. You probably know this, but they will want to put you in the OR, in lithotomy, with high likelihood of a great big epi. If you consent to do it in the OR, you may want to insist that they bring in a real labouring bed since you can't assume different positions on an OR table - it's intended, obviously, for anaesthetized people and is patently unsafe for a non-medicated birth.

Not that I'm trying to give you more stress, you know that. But... at the time I was facing this, I was completely shocked by the idea of lithotomy, epi, etc. and my MW, with what i now recognize as panic in her voice, said to me, "you're going to have to make some compromises, they're going to be scared, you'll have to do it their way." Now, the idea of an epi scares me nearly so much as surgery itself. I did a lot of thinking and at the time was prepared to compromise... but since then I've done more thinking. My take on it now is... "As long as everything is going smoothly, I'll do this any way I like, thanks. If I have a problem, I'll do whatever you like, promptly. I'll let you know if I'm having a problem."

Incidentally I also have a vaginal breech birthing plan if you want to read/borrow/steal.

xo Robin


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Hi Mamas,

Thanks again for all your kind words of support.

I thought I would just let you know where things stand right now.

My midwife has scheduled me for an ultrasound on Monday to do a BPP since my hospital is now refusing me outpatient care (in an effort to coerce me into admitting myself). I'm glad to have that lined up, because while I do feel good about how the baby is doing, a little reassurance will go a long way for both DP and I. I also want to confirm that baby's position.

My doula has injured herself and asked me yesterday to please wait until Monday to have the baby. I'll do my best







.

I'm feeling reasonably settled with things, knowing now that the baby is 34w2d is good, and there is a reasonable possibility we could make 35 weeks.

But, I am having contractions. They have not increased in frequency or intensity, but they don't stop. They are usually a few an hour, so only every 20 minutes or so, but it's exhausting as it has been this way since Monday, and sometimes they do come much more frequently then peter out. They require concentration. I've been through a hard natural labour before so I do know that these are the medium kind, not the easy early kind. They seem to either be more painful or frequent at night, or they just bother me more when I'm trying to sleep. In any case, it's 3:50am and I decided if I'm going to be kept up in my bed, I may as well come downstairs and have less annoying contractions.

I will keep y'all posted on how things progress. At this point, my biggest concern is the possibility of a c-section, and the worry of having one that is unnecessary. Like I explained, I know they will do or say almost anything to convince me that a c-section is necessary while I'm there in labour trying for a vaginal delivery. I've done some research on what actually constitutes a good reason for c-section, and it feels rediculous that I feel I have to know as much as an obstetrician about high-risk scenarios in order to make an informed decision. More even, it seems.


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sanguine_speed* 
Hi Mamas,

Thanks again for all your kind words of support.

I thought I would just let you know where things stand right now.

My midwife has scheduled me for an ultrasound on Monday to do a BPP since my hospital is now refusing me outpatient care (in an effort to coerce me into admitting myself). I'm glad to have that lined up, because while I do feel good about how the baby is doing, a little reassurance will go a long way for both DP and I. I also want to confirm that baby's position.

My doula has injured herself and asked me yesterday to please wait until Monday to have the baby. I'll do my best







.

I'm feeling reasonably settled with things, knowing now that the baby is 34w2d is good, and there is a reasonable possibility we could make 35 weeks.

But, I am having contractions. They have not increased in frequency or intensity, but they don't stop. They are usually a few an hour, so only every 20 minutes or so, but it's exhausting as it has been this way since Monday, and sometimes they do come much more frequently then peter out. They require concentration. I've been through a hard natural labour before so I do know that these are the medium kind, not the easy early kind. They seem to either be more painful or frequent at night, or they just bother me more when I'm trying to sleep. In any case, it's 3:50am and I decided if I'm going to be kept up in my bed, I may as well come downstairs and have less annoying contractions.

I will keep y'all posted on how things progress. At this point, my biggest concern is the possibility of a c-section, and the worry of having one that is unnecessary. Like I explained, I know they will do or say almost anything to convince me that a c-section is necessary while I'm there in labour trying for a vaginal delivery. I've done some research on what actually constitutes a good reason for c-section, and it feels rediculous that I feel I have to know as much as an obstetrician about high-risk scenarios in order to make an informed decision. More even, it seems.

Thinking about you. I'm checking here regularly but please call if you need an ear.
xo Robin


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## CarolynnMarilynn (Jun 3, 2004)

keep strong Mama!


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Baby wait vibes coming your way









I'm proud of you for standing your ground against the doctor-bullies. You must be under so much stress.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:

I've done some research on what actually constitutes a good reason for c-section, and it feels rediculous that I feel I have to know as much as an obstetrician about high-risk scenarios in order to make an informed decision. More even, it seems.
Yes. Being forced into this position drives me nuts. We *should* be able to trust hcp, but unfortunately it frequently doesn't work that way.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

We still don't have a name for this baby.

This experience must certainly colour his/her name!

We do not know the sex of the baby, but we *think* it's a boy (intuitively, but for no other reason).

For a girl, we had thought of Ignacia long ago. We conceived in Rome, and it's Italian-like, and it means "fire"--something I wish for my kids. But then I realized that I have a much more passive partner, and between he and I, something like "Imogen" makes more sense. We also have a mild-mannered child together already. But, this whole thing leads me more toward Ignacia...especially if she's got red in her tones...as she very well could possibly.

For a boy, we're stuck. We like Oscar, Simon, Calvin and Mortimer. But, none of these really fits this scenario and I don't think I can use any of them. This whole adventure...water breaking early on an island, boat, ambulance, airplane, then the fights with the hospital about breech/c-section, leaving AMA, etc...and the birth promises some drama no matter what it turns out to be. I feel like this baby needs a strong, adventurous name. But I'm stumped.

Does anyone have any ideas for boy or girl names? Something strong, even fierce, or passionate, or something to do with change, progress, standing up for what's right?

It's nice to take a minute to think about this new person coming.

One other note...there is one OB who is sort of sympathetic and is my ideal of all the OBs who could possibly attend the birth. His name is Roman. Given the Rome history, I think I might consider something of a variant...or even for a middle name. The odds of this guy being there are slim as he's only on call for 2 12-hour shifts out of the week. If he is the one there, then that would surely be a sign.

And, while I've never been known to think of naming babies after people (first 2 have no ancestral names or otherwise), I may consider a tribute to my fine midwife somewhere in there.


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

Well, you could always just use the masculine form of Ignatia...Ignatius...


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Indiana?







LOL just kidding. Hmmm... Harrison is nice though. And given to adventure - outer space, tomb raiding, chasing criminals... although I've always wondered what his friends call him for short.


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Maverick!


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## Earthy Birthy (Sep 26, 2004)

If you like the fire theme, how about Blaze?

Of course, I'm biased about the name, since I already have a Blaze.







:


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

I like Roman! That was on our list for a while.

Funny when I was reading your post the name "Caleb" jumped out at me. I don't think it's particularly adventurous or anything, and it's not a name I've ever thought of. Weird.


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## AngelaB (Nov 20, 2001)

I have a son named Jupiter. The counterpart to that is Zeus. My next boy will probably by Archemedes. I also have a Milo who was a greek wrestler in ancient times. He used to carry a bull calf around on his shoulders to show off!
I love the name Atticus after Atticus Finch he was a tough guy with grace.

Angela


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sanguine_speed* 

Does anyone have any ideas for boy or girl names? Something strong, even fierce, or passionate, or something to do with change, progress, standing up for what's right?


I also wanted a name that reflected our arduous HBAC journey together, and our decision to stand up for what was right- I chose *Loren (derived from Laurence)* for my son:

*LAURENCE (1)*
*Gender:* Masculine *Usage:* English *Pronounced:* LAWR-ents [key]
From the Roman cognomen _Laurentius_, which meant "of Laurentum". Laurentum was a city in ancient Italy, its name probably deriving from Latin _laurus_ "laurel". Saint Laurence was a 3rd-century deacon and martyr from Rome. According to tradition he was roasted alive on a gridiron because, when ordered to hand over the church's treasures, he presented the sick and poor.


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## RachelS (Jul 21, 2006)

Thinking of you mama and you baby!!!!


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Thinking of you today,

I don't know if she's still on the board, but try PMing Spark. She had PROM at this stage in her pregnancy almost 2 years ago and chose the "wait and see" option, at home, with her m/w. Baby wasn't breech though.
Also, a birth story for you. It is a medicalised breech extraction rather than a birth, but there's a lot of similarities there.
I just want to hypothesise- these contractions could be your cervix dilating, but it could also be your body trying to turn baby vertex. It's probably not going to happen, but I've found the process of breech babies turning (or transverse babies turning) tends to accompany quite strong ctx. every time and can be very uncomfortable.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Thanks for thinking of me. At this point, I have started to think mroe about what the birth might look like at the hospital. I'm starting to be concerned about it becoming a circus since insisting on this breech birth seems such a big deal. I am imagining hearing "them" talk about the breech birth, the crazy mother, the risks, all within earshot and all in professional hushed tones in the room. I'm imagining all the gawkers who want to come see it, and the nurses mauling me. The excessive monitoring, the hysterics if something even slightly off happens. So even if they "let" me do it, I think the birthing environment will be quite poor. I don't think that is a pessimistic or latent worry; I think it is realtistic given what I've seen so far and what I understand to be true about my case. I guess it's better to prepare for this now.

The good news is that my midwife will be there as a support person, and we have hired a doula who will also be there. I will talk to the doula today about it. I'm not sure how much of this I can avoid. Add to that the early baby stuff, and sheesh, it's bound to be circus.

It's very important to me that this birth remain drug free because of the information the pain will give me about how to birth this baby. I have had very difficult labours and I know how intense the pain experience is for me. It is going to be so so hard to manage this situation while in that kind of pain. And, I'm also imagining everyone trying to give me pain meds. Ugh.

Thanks for letting me talk about it here.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

There's an email address on the birth story I posted above- Ruth used to be my neighbour, later trained as an antenatal teacher and is a very big advocate for homebirth and keeping birth normal. She also has a lot of experience of working within hospital settings








You may be surprised by your levels of pain- or lack of it. After all, you've had difficult labours before but you've never birthed a breech baby







Just take things as they come, one minute, hour, day, contraction at a time.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Hi ladies! I'm having contractions every 5-6 minutes for one minute each time...I'm going to call my midwife soon. Oddly enough, I feel it more important to find out which OB is on call right now so I'm actually calling the hospital first







: . The "good" willing OB is on at 5:00 today. Hopefully it will take that long.

Or, this could peter out. It happened with dd2.

Wish me luck.


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Thinking of you. Hang in there, be strong, you DO know what's best. And pp is right, this labour WILL be completely different from your previous ones. Different baby, different circumstances. Breathe. You can do this.
love Robin


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## DucetteMama21842 (May 11, 2006)

Wishing you major luck mama! You can do this! Crossing my fingers and praying for a happy birth for you!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Thanks! Still going strong, though I'm confused...they're now every 3-4 minutes but shorter...only 35-45 seconds each. Hmmm....boy this is annoying.


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## Nettie (May 26, 2005)

I'm going to keep you in my thoughts today! Thanks for all the updates; I keep checking to see how things are going. In your post further above, I just wanted to say that I fear those things for you, too, BUT...I think you're incredibly strong & determined, and you will overcome all of the negative atmosphere they can throw at you. Not only do you have your midwife to support you there, but also many people here who will be cheering you on in our hearts.







Mama...I hope if today IS the day, that it will slow down and happen after "good" OB takes his shift...and also if today's the day, I wish you a safe birth free from fear and meddling.


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## 3daughters (Aug 11, 2004)

Thanks for the update!

Just thinking out loud...Would it be easier to vaginally birth a pre-term baby? I don't think the cervix would have to be as dilated to deliver the head safely since the head is smaller?


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## mamamoo (Apr 29, 2002)

Thinking of you mama. Baby!!! Go slow, wait for the good doc!!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

MW almost here...ctx every 3 minutes for almost a minute.
There is a reasonable OB on call before the good one, so I'm ok. Though of course he'd still prefer c-section. Looks like I'll be leaving soon. Will have DP update after birth.

OMG Ow.


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## Selesai (Oct 26, 2005)

thinking of you, and wishing you the most peaceful birth possible


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## hapersmion (Jan 5, 2007)

Oh, good luck! Stay strong, you can do this! I hope they don't give you too much trouble. Maybe that baby knows when the nicer doctor is on call.

Thinking of you... (And I hope you think of a good name for the baby, heh!)

hapersmion


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## IntuitiveJamie (Jun 24, 2006)

Good luck and please keep us posted on your bb, we've been looking for you!!
You are so strong and amazing!


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## HeatherB (Jan 30, 2003)

Praying for a safe delivery with all the best possible outcomes! Hugs, mama!!


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## Sabo (Sep 22, 2006)

I just saw this. I'm sending good thoughts to you and Baby.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

OMG!

Here's sending you many hugs, and sending that little trail-blazer of yours a hug too. Go sniff that baby head for me!


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## ~minnow~ (May 25, 2006)

Just catching up on this story. I am SO impressed with how you've handled it.

And now I'm on the edge of my seat about the contractions and the ob on call. Sending many good thoughts your way!


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## RachelS (Jul 21, 2006)

Thinking of you constantly!!!!! Sending you and your baby *lots* of positive vibes!







WOW! Thank you for all the wonderful updates!


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## zoeyzoo (Jul 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~minnow~* 
Just catching up on this story. I am SO impressed with how you've handled it.

And now I'm on the edge of my seat about the contractions and the ob on call. Sending many good thoughts your way!

This is exactly what I was thinking. Sending good birth vibes since it sounds like you'll be going back to the hospital...


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## a_work_in_progress (May 17, 2006)

Good luck!


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## forestrymom (Jul 13, 2006)

Thinking of all of you and anxiously awaiting good news.


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## hetaera (Mar 1, 2006)

omg! thinking of you!


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## thefreckledmama (Jun 1, 2007)

Thinking of you!! Hoping baby waits until the 'good' OB is on!


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## lunamegn (Nov 30, 2004)

Thinking about you!! Wishing for the best!


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## Novella (Nov 8, 2006)

I'm guessing you are in the midst of your birth by now. But just in case things peter-out and you end up home again. . .

I had an extremely stressful and adversarial experience in the birth of my twins, in December 2006. Pretty much all the same hooey you are experiencing about the scare tactics of the doctors and whatnot - my second twin was breech. (Breech second twin = considered less risky than breech singleton. Double footling breech = considered more risky than your frank breech).

I just wanted to share with you the value I found in building a "bubble" of protection around myself. My husband and my "not-formally-trained-doula" sister-in-law were there to help me. Having one of them on each side of me was an obvious physical manifestation of their emotional support and helped me feel protected from the adversarial medical staff. Their physical proximity was extremely important to me - far beyond "press! I'm having back labour" which was what first necessitated them being immediately at my side. I had never realized just how important it could be to have an actual physical connection with people I knew shared my beliefs in the birth. I felt almost like the birthing bed was some sort of den or elevated shrine - maybe like a raft on water. I definitely felt separated from the many carts of medical equipment that the hospital staff had ringed the bed with (certain they were giving me a c-section, transporting me to the operating room, giving me an epidural, dealing with babies who would be compromised at birth, etc, etc).

Having this semi-physical "bubble" around me helped immensely with the psychological game of birthing.

Good luck!


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## MichelleW (Aug 22, 2005)

I've been offline for a week or so, and just found your story today -- and what a day! You, your family, midwife, and OB are definitely in my thoughts. I am wanting the best memories to come out of this nasty situation, for you.
Sending positive vaginal birthing vibes your way, and healthy growing vibes for your baby.
take care


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## artgirl (May 17, 2002)

hoping everything is going well!


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## arelyn (Mar 24, 2006)

I hope everything went well and you have your wonderful, tiny baby now!!


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

*~*~Peaceful Birthing Vibes~*~*

--if it's not too late. Maybe you are already holding your little one!


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## DucetteMama21842 (May 11, 2006)

Dying for an update. Praying mama, baby and the whole family are doing wonderful!


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Good vibes!


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Thinking of you... xo Robin


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## AdalynsMama (Apr 19, 2007)

Sending hugs and best wishes for you and your family!!!


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## Artichokie (Jun 19, 2007)

I've been a lurker, but I wanted to post to wish you *excellent* birthing vibes!


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## mighty-mama (Sep 27, 2005)

Sending my love and healthy baby and mommy vibes.. I'm hoping the birth, will go as peacefull as much as possible...

Best wishes...


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Thinking about you and hoping you are both doing well now, you and babe.









Julia


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## *jeanine* (May 29, 2005)

The whole Spetember DDC has been thinking of you and praying for you. A lot of us just found out that you're still posting over here.

I hope everything is going the way you want it, and that you and the babe are doing well.


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## SweetTexasgal (Aug 12, 2006)

Sending healthy baby vibes your way and as peaceful a birth as possible.


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

sending you love! hope you're enjoying your blissful babymoon!


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## Blucactus (Nov 20, 2006)

Best, best wishes for your tough situation. I've just come up this thread, wondering how you are!


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## mommajb (Mar 4, 2005)

Best wishes!! I hope you have a peaceful birth and a healthy baby. I'll be thinking about you.


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## TinyFrog (Jan 24, 2006)

Wow, you are such a tough mama. You have put up with a lot from those doctors. I am so excited to about the birth.


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

waiting with baited breath...


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## Plaid Leopard (Sep 26, 2003)

I've been out of town and away from the computer, but have been thinking about you. Hope all is well!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

This is sanguine_speed's DP, thank you for your best wishes, I couldn't keep you waiting for an update.

The baby came out of sanguine_speed's vagina bum first on Monday at 3:55pm EST. It's a boy, he weighed 6lbs. 6oz. and he's currently in the NICU. sanguine_speed will share our birth story in the next couple days.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Congrats on the new little one!


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## meisterfrau (Sep 24, 2005)

I've been following this story, and am glad to hear both mama and baby are ok!


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## a_work_in_progress (May 17, 2006)

Congratulations!!!!


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## DucetteMama21842 (May 11, 2006)

Oh I am so glad she didn't have a cesarean! I hope everyone is wonderful and recovering beautifully! Crossing my fingers baby gets out of NICU soon!


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## minimunklemama (Nov 24, 2004)

yay,I am so glad both are well.
can't wait to see piccies


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## mommajb (Mar 4, 2005)

Congratulations! I hope he's home soon and all is well.


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## mighty-mama (Sep 27, 2005)

Congratulations... I hope mama and the little guy will stay strong..


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## thefreckledmama (Jun 1, 2007)

Congratualtions!!! I am SO happy to hear she was able to have him without a c-section.

What an awesome mama!


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## ~Katie~ (Mar 18, 2007)

Woohoo! Congratulations mama, you're an inspiration to all of us!


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## mamamoo (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sanguine_speed* 
This is sanguine_speed's DP, thank you for your best wishes, I couldn't keep you waiting for an update.

The baby came out of sanguine_speed's vagina bum first on Monday at 3:55pm EST. It's a boy, he weighed 6lbs. 6oz. and he's currently in the NICU. sanguine_speed will share our birth story in the next couple days.


Woohoo!!! COmgratulations to you all!! I hope he is out of nicu and in her arms asap!!


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## Nettie (May 26, 2005)

Hurray! Congratulations! I knew it would be fine if they just let her do it. I'm so glad she fought and won!


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## SweetTexasgal (Aug 12, 2006)

Woohoo sanguine_speed!!

Way to go!! Warm wishes and







: for you and your sweet little babe.


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## dctexan (Oct 18, 2006)

Congrats S_S (and DP of S_S)!!!!! Welcome to the world baby boy!


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## echospiritwarrior (Jun 1, 2006)

whoo hoo! Congratulations! Can't wait to hear the long version. Six lbs is a great size for a 35 weeker!


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

congrats on your baby boy!! Hope all is well


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## bryonyvaughn (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sanguine_speed* 
...The baby came out of sanguine_speed's vagina bum first on Monday at 3:55pm EST. It's a boy, he weighed 6lbs. 6oz. and he's currently in the NICU...

Congratulations on your son's birth.









We're sending prayers for kind staff and a quick recovery for both mom and baby.

~BV


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## nikkihoi (Jul 5, 2006)

Dito on size! Hopefully that will help bring him home sooner!
Congrats!!!


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

YAY!!! Congratulations!!!


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## RachelS (Jul 21, 2006)

Congratulations!!!! So glad to hear that Mama and baby are doing well!! Wahoo!!! No C-sec!!! Can't wait to read the birth story!







Thank you so much for the update!!


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

YAY!!! Congratulations! I'm so happy for you guys!


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Whooo hoooo! ITA fantastic size for a 35w babe... thinking about you guys and looking forward to the story.
xo Robin


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## IntuitiveJamie (Jun 24, 2006)

Atta girl!!!!! Way to go on your vaginal breech birth. You are amazing! Congrats and it sounds like your baby boy is a nice healthy size. Hopeully you will take him home soon!

Jamie


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *echospiritwarrior* 
whoo hoo! Congratulations! Can't wait to hear the long version. Six lbs is a great size for a 35 weeker!

Yes, big for that early.

Congrats to you both.


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## HeatherB (Jan 30, 2003)

Yaaayy!!! Wonderful news!! Congrats, sanguine_speed and family!! From that snippet, it certainly sounds like the best news possible - a great sized baby in a successful breech birth!

Hope everyone is recovering well and home soon to enjoy the babymoon! Congrats!


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## Broccolilover (Jun 3, 2005)

wow that is amazing! congratulations, you are one strong women,
yay to you!


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## *jeanine* (May 29, 2005)

Yay!!! I'm so happy you were able to have him vaginally!!! I hope the NICU staff is treating you both well, and that he is able to come home very soon!!

I'm anxiously waiting to hear his name!


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## Plaid Leopard (Sep 26, 2003)

Yay! Congratulations!
Here's to a short stay in the NICU and that mama and baby will be home soon!


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## Alohamelly (Jul 1, 2005)

Congratulations!!! Can't wait to read the birth story!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Great size







I am so happy she got the vaginal birth. I am looking forward to reading the birth story.


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## arelyn (Mar 24, 2006)

CONGRADULATIONS!!!!!!!! I'm so glad for both of you!! Welcome baby!!!


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## 3daughters (Aug 11, 2004)

YAY! WTG!

Congratulations on your baby boy and vaginal birth!

ETA: You are an inspiration!


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

Welcome to the World, Little One. Our prayers are with you and your family. GREAT size for a 35 weeker! My dd was born at 6lbs 9.5 oz at 38.5 weeks! That's good growing, mama! Here's to a cooperative staff and a good nurser.


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## DucetteMama21842 (May 11, 2006)

I know. He sounds like a healthy size. My oldest was 6lbs 1oz when he was 39wks5days!


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Congratulations!







I hope your little one is soon out of NICU and back in your arms.







s and congratulations again. You did it!


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## mamaveggie (Mar 24, 2007)

Congratulations! I'm so happy that you got to birth that breech baby the way you wanted to!


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## jmhammond (Mar 30, 2005)

CONGRATS!!! I'm also SO excited you got the birth you were hoping for (at least as much as we've learned so far)...

I'm praying for a QUICK stay at the NICU!!! And home soon!


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## mamas2atti (Aug 21, 2004)

Congratulations mama!


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## Sabo (Sep 22, 2006)

Oh, congratulations Momma! I hope your little boy moves out of that NICU really quickly.


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## leanbh (Mar 22, 2007)

hoorah!

congrats!

and i hope your little one is all snuggled up at home soon!


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## lactivist (Jun 14, 2005)

Congratulations! Way to go Mama! We all knew you could do it. Here's hoping you are all going home to love each other very soon.
Wendi


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## forestrymom (Jul 13, 2006)

That's wonderful news! Anxiously awaiting details, and impressed by your baby growing abilities!


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## k9sarchik (Nov 11, 2006)

Congratulations! I am so happy for you that your wish came true! And a good healthy size. Hopefully they get him back in your arms VERY soon!
Looking forward to the birth story. I'm in your Sept DDC and have been following closely.


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## ashleep (Jul 20, 2004)

congrats!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Thank you mamas so much. I am home now, and Oscar is still in Special Care. It's 4:30am, I just pumped and I'm going back to bed. I wrote up a little something last night that is incomplete, but will give you an idea:

On Monday morning, DP took the kids to daycare and went to work. I started having contractions around 9:00am, but figured they were the same kind I'd been having all week, and the same kind I'd had for days with dd2: prodromal, not-very-effective, yet still painful and frustrating. I watched some TV and noticed that the contractions seemed to be coming more frequently than they had on previous days, and decided to start keeping track using "contractionmaster.com". I discovered my contractions were coming regularly every five minutes for about a minute each time. I phoned DP to let him know, but told him to stay at work until I called again. He later admitted that while he stayed at work, he couldn't concentrate and was very anxious, so he looked at guitar websites until I phoned back. It was only 15 minutes or so before I phoned him back and told him to come home as my contractions had become more frequent: every four minutes or so. He stopped at a family member's house to swap cars so that she could pick up the kids with the car seats, and arrived home shortly after noon. We called the doula and midwife to come. Doula and Midwife (who were both out of town when I called) arrived around 2:00. By the time Doula and Midwife arrived, my contractions were again more frequent; about 2 and a half minutes apart. Midwife monitored the baby, and Midwife offered me drinks (not the kind I really needed!) and iced wash cloths for my face. DP sat with me and gently rubbed my back. I announced at 3:00 that it was time to go to the hospital.

We all left at the same time for the hospital. We called ahead to let the hospital staff know we were coming as they had to prepare for a 34-week preemie, and a breech delivery. The OB who was on call was one we hadn't spoken to about my desire to have a vaginal delivery for our frank breech baby. We hoped that I would hang on until 5:15 when another OB was on-one who knew our position and was very supportive and happy to attend the birth. This OB, upon us telling him we were on our way with our breech baby, declared that he would get set up for a c-section. We informed him that I would be refusing a c-section unless circumstances other than breech presentation warranted one. He accepted our decision and prepared.

The drive was not very long, but it felt like it was, of course. Contractions hurt even more when you have to sit down strapped in and ride over bumps. I had DP let me out of the car at the entrance to the parking garage because I so desperately wanted out! I waited at the parking garage exit, and realize now how awful it must have looked to passersby when I was bent over having contractions standing there alone. I got a lot of sympathetic looks, and I wonder if they thought someone had just left me there alone. Of course, DP arrived as quickly as he could and in we went. Contractions came very quickly at that point, and it was difficult to make progress toward the labour and delivery area of the hospital as we had to stop so often and for so long each time. Finally, we made it to the admitting desk at labour and delivery where I announced: "I'm here to have a baby!" They asked me if I wanted a wheelchair and I said that there was no time for a wheelchair; just get me a room&#8230;!

They could see that I was in transition and really needed a room, so they directed me to one quickly. I held the baby in as I ran/waddled to the room. The nurses shouted for the OB who was on the phone talking to the head of obstetrics about my breech delivery and how to handle it. I guess he had enough time to get the information he needed! In the end, Oscar was born not more than 10 minutes after we arrived at the admitting desk. Since he was premature, they had a neonatologist and support staff ready to receive him in an adjacent room upon delivery. DP went with them to observe. They had to do some mild resuscitation, but Oscar was breathing on his own within moments. They gave him a feeding tube through his nose into his stomach and an IV in his abdomen to help feed him since premature babies generally cannot feed orally at first. They also did an xray to make sure the tubes were where they should be and to check on his lungs. They brought him back to me after about an hour so I could see and hold him briefly, then took him to the Special Care Nursery (called Neonatal Intensive Care Unit at most hospitals).

From beginning to end, this labour was only about six and a half hours, which was much shorter than my first two. The delivery was quick, though this one was difficult because there was some difficulty delivering Oscar's head, which got stuck for a couple minutes. I have been feeling very well, and am so grateful that I do not have to recover from a c-section, and that I did not have another hemorrhage nor (it seems) infection. I never knew it was possible to feel this good after giving birth! I was kicked out of the hospital today for being too healthy.

Oscar has remained in the Special Care Nursery at the hospital since he was born. He has done very well. After about 24 hours, he was able to learn to suck/swallow/breathe, and took his first oral feeding. He still cannot latch on to breastfeed and must be fed with a bottle. We practice breastfeeding sometimes, but it's important not to tire him out because if he works too hard he might not eat at all, even from the bottle. Tonight he actually latched on for a moment-a very big step. Unfortunately, he continues to require an IV to supplement his feeding tube and to administer antibiotics (just due to prematurity). Tonight I went in to visit and feed him, and found that they had been forced to put the IV in his head since all of the veins in his hands and feet had already been used and lost. It was sad to see, but of course necessary, and it will hopefully be gone in the next day or two as he takes more and more oral feedings. He started out at 2093 grams, and gained 27 grams on day one, then lost 65 on day two, bringing his weight down by only 1% of his birth weight, which is excellent. He has had no problems breathing on his own since the first few minutes of his life, and is now keeping his own temperature well. He should be moving out of his incubator into a regular cot tomorrow morning. We hope he will be able to come home early next week. We have been warned, however, that often preemies can seem to do well after a couple of days, but then begin to tire out and have trouble starting on day 3 or more. We hope that Oscar will continue to do well so we can bring him home and he can be with his family. One other potential barrier to that is that he has developed some jaundice. Hopefully that will remain mild and he won't be kept longer to treat it.

So, that's how Oscar came to join us. We should point out that "Westcott" is a name we chose to mark the special beginnings of Oscar's arrival; it means "from the west cottage".

The birth was very intense. Mamas, through all this I drew a lot of strength from your encouragement and support; it has meant so much! I wore my birth beads through labour and was still wearing them when Oscar was born. Funny enough, DP pulled them out of his pocket (I had taken them off to shower) and the clasp had broken on both sides. It was as if they had done what they needed to do, and literally given me their strength, and then were 'done'. I don't think I'll fix them. They've been used up in a wonderful way.

The delivery of the head was a little more dramatic than I desribed here, but this story is for all friends and family too. They were pretty hysterical as his head got stuck on a lip of cervix. All in all, it was only 2 minutes of stuckness, and 4 minutes is generally when it becomes a major deal. They reached inside to move things around while putting a lot of force onto my abdomen to push his head out from the top. Lots of shouting to push the baby out and I basically never stopped pushing until he was born.

I'm glad we didn't give them time to do anything but catch that baby! I did get a lecture from the OB, but I think he realized there was no point since the baby was out! I feel very empowered for making this decision and following it through, even through labour and birth. Thanks mamas!


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## mommajb (Mar 4, 2005)

I am so happy for you and your family. Please keep taking such great care of yourself, Oscar will be home soon.







:







:


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## DoomaYula (Aug 22, 2006)

I'm so happy for you.

After having a feet-first breech in the hospital (in retrospect; it's been 4.5y now) I felt very empowered and I hope you experience that too!


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## IntuitiveJamie (Jun 24, 2006)

I'm just so happy for you and proud of you and I really hope that this heals a lot of your past birth trauma. I also hope that Oscar can push past day three and continue to shine and come home soon! Many many best wishes to you all!


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## Plaid Leopard (Sep 26, 2003)

That is a beautiful, empowering birth story! I'm glad your birth went smoothly. I will be rooting for Oscar to get stronger and stronger and be home in your arms soon!


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Hon I'm in tears. So proud of you for sticking to your guns and showing that a safe vaginal breech birth is totally REAL!!! And my heart is with you while you wait to bring Oscar home. I'd love to hear all the gritty details at some point, and if you're willing I would really love to use your story on the CBB site. Anyway give me a call or an email when you're up to it... thinking of you and your beautiful babe.

xo Robin


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## g&a (Dec 15, 2004)

Totally inspiring story, mama!! You did it!
I'm all tears, here, too.
g.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Congratulations and tears of joy!


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## artgirl (May 17, 2002)

:

Congratulations. You sound so calm about having a baby in NICU. I hope he comes home soon, healthy and nursing like a pro! And that you heal quickly and have lots of energy.

Bless your whole family!


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## DucetteMama21842 (May 11, 2006)

Oh mama! You are amazing! I'm glad Oscar is doing so well and will continue to cross my fingers that he'll blow away the NICU and be home with you as soon as possible!


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## jmhammond (Mar 30, 2005)

CONGRATS!!!! I'm so glad he's here and I LOVE HIS NAME!!!!

You have a lot to be proud of! Congrats. I'm still praying for a quick stay in the NICU.


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## mamamoo (Apr 29, 2002)

Oh mama, what an amazing birth. Thank you so much for sharing, and I will be vizualizing your sweet baby coming home with you very soon!!!


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## *jeanine* (May 29, 2005)

I'm glad they only had time to catch the baby!!! Way to go, Mama!!








Come home soon Baby!


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## hetaera (Mar 1, 2006)

Congratulations!!! I checked this thread everytime I turned on the computer for updates. I am so happy you didnt have to have another c section!!!!

I hope baby gets to come home to you soon!!!


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## hapersmion (Jan 5, 2007)

Hooray! Congratulations, breech mama!







I'm so glad you didn't let those doctors stop you. With luck your baby will be home in no time.

hapersmion


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Thank you all so much. I can't tell you how much your support and encouragement have meant to me. I had so little of it IRL, and you've all made this so much better for us. THANK YOU!


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

YAY!!! I'm so glad you got the birth you wanted!!! (even though it was early) And I'm thrilled that you used my name suggestion! -Maverick-







I'm giddy!


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## AngelaB (Nov 20, 2001)

You are so AWESOME! What an inspiring story! I love Oscars name and kudos to your birth support team! Hoping Oscar comes home soon,
Angela


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## MCsMom (Jan 15, 2006)

Congrats! I hope he gets to come home soon. You sound so calm for having a baby in the NICU.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

What a beautiful, inspiring story mama!

Welcome to your Oscar and I hope he is home with you soon!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Hi Mamas!

Thank you once again for your support and encourgement. You have been an inspiration and I never knew I could feel so empowered by birth, especially after my past experiences.

I have posted my birth story on my personal blog: http://mercurysunrise.ath.cx/

I wasn't going to talk about the breech issues I was having, but have become inspired to raise consciousness and honour what was this birth. I feel it's important and how can I tell a birth story without these things being part of it? I wanted to avoid it because I have been nervous about how friends and family would respond; they are generally very trusting of medical professionals and I worried they'd think I was nuts. But, I've laid it out there and I feel good about it. Yet, if you have a chance, I would appreciate you leaving words of support in the comments section of my blog so that my friends and family know that I'm not the only one who believes in what I did. You don't need to sign in or anything; just visit and comment. I would really appreciate it mamas!

THANKS and enjoy the pictures!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Thanks mamas!


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

No, mama. Thank you.


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## DucetteMama21842 (May 11, 2006)

I posted as Danile.


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

I'm so glad this all worked out!

Just to add a bit to your birth story: it's normal for a breech head to take a couple minutes to be born. It's also normal for them to appear "shocked" a bit after the birth, but provided the cord is left intact, they come around with very little resuscitation.









The sucking issue is one that I'm sure will resolve soon as your babe gets older!

You did amazing! I'm so happy for you and feel like your resolve to birth your baby on your terms is the true essence of MDC!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife* 
I'm so glad this all worked out!

Just to add a bit to your birth story: it's normal for a breech head to take a couple minutes to be born. It's also normal for them to appear "shocked" a bit after the birth, but provided the cord is left intact, they come around with very little resuscitation.










Thanks for noting this. It was something my midwife had warned me about and I was prepared for. The OB and nurses seemed to freak out though. It was only 2 minutes from bum to head which really is not that long for a breech. I was also prepared for the "shocked" part but everyone else seemed to freak out. I felt confident that he would be fine. Strangely calm. I am normally prone to the freaking out myself.


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

that's because you're highly intuitive.


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## mom3b1? (Jun 3, 2007)

Congratulations! What an inspiration to us all!

Kiley


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## amitymama (Nov 17, 2006)

I left a message on your blog. Well done mama, you are an inspiration!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Wow, what inspiring messages you've left! Thanks so much! I have gained so much confidence in myself, and faith in my ability to make good choices. I am also amazed that I can once again trust my body and my intuition.

Oscar has jaundice, which is keeping him in, but all tubes and IV are out and his bili levels went down today. He *might* come home tonight, but might be tomorrow or Monday. He's fantastic. Breastfeeding is a challenge as he won't/can't latch yet, but I'm pumping and we've got support lined up. He had a tongue-tie that was clipped the other day. I had one that was clipped when I was 12 to try and help me with my speech (it worked!) and it required 7 stitches to repair. My oldest dd had hers clipped after we had a lot of breastfeeding difficulties in her first week. This time, I was pleased to go ahead and do it without waiting to see. He didn't even flinch.


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## zak (Mar 6, 2005)

Congrats, Mama!!!!


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

SS...as an aside, do you have LLL in your area? I'm seeing some kind of borderline inaccurate info from your LC about premies...and I'd love to see if your LLL Leader might have a different perspective that may help Oscar latch sooner. If you pm me I might be able to help you find a group in your area, if you're interested, and willing to try a different method of feeding until he gets a good latch down...

Oh, and you may see increased input and still not a ton of gain, as bililights tend to make the baby dehydrated (personal experience with that...), but it sounds like he's doing fine!

Looking forward to hearing that he's come home!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Thanks so much! I will have to look into the LLL. I've never had an easy time breastfeeding, and this preemie business is just way beyond anything I was prepared for. It's going well right now in terms of pumping, and just last night he latched for the first time and suckled a wee tiny bit. He should be coming home this morning and I think having him home will make all the difference. It's sort of tricky while he's in NICU because if they don't take their supplement then you risk them not coming home. It's really discouraging to breastfeeding mothers.


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## *jeanine* (May 29, 2005)

Hoping he's home!

My friend's baby had to spend a few days in a NICU - also not at all supportive of breastfeeding. But once home she was able to give him 24 hour access to a bare breast. He usually ignored it, and was getting bm from a bottle. But when he was 3 weeks old, he latched on and hasn't had a bottle since!!! Don't give up!!!


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

What I would suggest to to continue to pump, but to use a Supplemental Nursing System to give him any supplemental breastmilk you may need to give him. This will allow him to get the "extra" he mght need, and still cause him to latch on YOU rather than a bottle nipple, which uses completely different muscles. In essence, in order to breathe, a baby MUST swallow when a bottle nipple is in it's mouth. The function of a nipple is such that it automatically puts milk in the baby's mouth, therefore causing the baby to swallow in order to breathe. With the breast, however, the baby must suckel, using completely different muscles, in order to "milk" the breast. This is why some babies who are started on a bottle have a MUCH more difficult time nursing at the breast later...they are simply taught to "get" their sustenance in a manner that won't get results on a breast, and then they can get frustrated when you put them to the breast to nurse.

Statistically, it's actually a LOT less stressful for most babies to suckel at the breast than it is to do the "hurry up and swallow" that they have to do with a bottle. If you would prefer, however, NOT to use the SNS, you could also consider using a syringe or using the tubing from the SNS and finger feed, which is much closer muscle-wise for the baby to become accustomed to "nursing" than bottle feeding is.

Just some thoughts...I know that you've been really focused on the birth and now on getting the baby home from the hospital. Now, if you want to focus on breastfeeding, it would be a GREAT idea to call a Leader tonight and see if they can give you some help. I'm a leader, and could probably find out for you where the nearest Leader in your area is.

You're doing GREAT mama. I hope I"m not overwhelming you with this info, but you've been working so hard, I'd hate for misinformation to sabotage your breastfeeding relationship.

Check out drjacknewman.com he has a LOT of great information, is more than willing to anwser emails with questions, and is all around a great guy, from the experiences I've had with him.

TAKE CARE, and I look forward to reading more updates!







:


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## Blucactus (Nov 20, 2006)

congrats on your little guy! I looked at his pics and read your story on your blog, he is beautiful and holy cow BIG for so early! yay for a strong lil guy!!


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## mommyminer (Aug 20, 2006)

I second what courtenay_e posts. Babies learn to breastfeed by breastfeeding and moms learn how to breastfeed by breastfeeding. I encourage you to supplement your breastfeeding education you are receiving from the LC with Dr. Newman's information. According to him, there should be no problems with a 32 weeker exclusively breastfeeding and spending most of babies time skin to skin with mom (no reason baby can't be monitored skin to skin). Anyway, I just finished reading his book "The Latch" and there was a great chapter about breastfeeding and prematurity. The rest of the book was great too. I'd highly recommend it. Otherwise, he has a lot of really good information online.

You were strong and wise in your birthing choices - you showed a lot strength through your education and conviction in the path you choose. There is also another path to breastfeeding success than the path you are on now. There is a whole nother school of thought on bfing and prematurity that I encourage you to educate yourself on.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *courtenay_e* 
You're doing GREAT mama. I hope I"m not overwhelming you with this info, but you've been working so hard, I'd hate for misinformation to sabotage your breastfeeding relationship.

Check out drjacknewman.com he has a LOT of great information, is more than willing to anwser emails with questions, and is all around a great guy, from the experiences I've had with him.

TAKE CARE, and I look forward to reading more updates!







:

No, you aren't overwhelming me at all. I really appreciate the help. There are so many things i've learned on MDC from generous mamas like yourself who have taken the time to help. I will definitely be looking into the SNS.
What do you think about nipple shields to help "latch"? I have flattish and biggish nipples and this really seems to be part of the problem. He does try, but his little mouth is just so...little.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Well, I've just gotten in touch with LLL who suggested I try a SNS but that I buy from a LC because I'll get a mini consultation along with it. I called the LC and signed up for a 2-hour consultation! I hope that she can come this afternoon...it might be tomorrow morning. I hope this helps. My pocket book is already hurting from all the expenses associated with this...the doula ($650), the parking at the hospital ($100), the bottles and pump (a lot), and formula to top up his feeds. I'm so grateful and fortunate for a 'free' midwife through public health insurance. At least I didn't have to pay for my birth nor hospital care (at least not directly).


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Hang in there.







Kangaroo care has worked really well for some of the early babies I know, and they've had strong breastfeeding relationships further down the line.


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## mommajb (Mar 4, 2005)

It does add up doesn't it? Think in terms of avoiding even more medical care down the road with a happy, healthy breastfed baby. It is less expensive than all formula and doctor visits and medications that you might encounter if not breastfeeding. The SNS is a great way to get your baby the nutrition he needs while stimulating your breasts to produce milk and teaching him to latch well.








and hang in there


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## forestrymom (Jul 13, 2006)

Sanguine--I just posted on your thread about getting a preemie from the bottle to the breast. I also posted a link to the LLL preemie info...there is some great reading there. If you need more specifics, because you are limited on websurfing time, let me know and I can dig it up. I am certain I have more time than you right now







.

Here are some more LLL links...
Nipple Problems
Nipple Shield...Friend or Foe?

Nipple Pain: Causes, Treatments, and Remedies

While the information out there on nipple shields is generally negative, there may be some situations where it can save a breastfeeding relationship. Also, be sure that the LC you are seeing is IBCLC if at all possible. I had bad information from a LC that was not, and I didn't know any different. Thank goodness I found LLL...or we would be bottle feeding for certain!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Thanks mamas









Yes, I just had a 2 hour consultation with an IBCLC today and it was so useful. You always (or I always) heard that nipple shields are "bad" but she evaluated his suck and palate and said he really does need one to be able to feed at breast right now. Latch will come next. Off the bottle comes first. So, we did a great feed, and she did a pre and post weight, and he took almost 30mL from breast at his first feed! So we're off...

The only downside is it actually seems that pumping and bottling takes half the time. This feed took a good hour, and by the time I got dressed, got him changed and cleaned up he was fussing again. the LC said "oh, yup, it's been a couple of hours; might be time to feed again"







: . I'm imagining this tonight. Dear heavens. I have a hard time falling asleep again after waking and always have. Sounds almost like sleepless nights altogether. It does get easier, right?


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## mommajb (Mar 4, 2005)

Yes it does get easier and he will get better at nursing.

Who is helping you with your daughters and other things? Is your dp home or back at work?


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## artgirl (May 17, 2002)

Yay! Congratulations on a good feeding!! That is great news.
FWIW, I had to use a nipple shield to feed my dd. I never could wean her off of it but I think I'm the exception to the rule in that department. We nursed for 16 months anyway and I was thrilled to have done so.
You are working so hard for this baby. I hope you have lots of help at home.


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## forestrymom (Jul 13, 2006)

Great news on the LC! I have generally agreed with that theory...breast first, then latch. Remember to work on correct latch even with the shield though...don't let him get sloppy. It will help your supply to make sure he is latched on correctly even with the shield, but since he's used to an artificial nipple, it won't feel as foreign to him. As for the length of time, many newborns who are not preemies need that much time for nursing, so its not just a preemie thing.

We used a shield in the beginning to get dd back to the breast. We had given her a bottle because I was so engorged and the LC I talked to said it couldn't be mastitis and it was, and I was sick, and weak...and gave her bottles for an entire weekend. Of course, she liked those better as it was easy to get milk and she didn't have to wait for a letdown. So we had to trick her with a filled up shield







. She was off the shield at 2.5 months, but it took a lot of work. My sil fed her 32 weeker with a shield for 6 months and then gave up bfing altogether for reasons not associated with the shield.

Great job Mama!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommajb* 
Yes it does get easier and he will get better at nursing.

Who is helping you with your daughters and other things? Is your dp home or back at work?

Well, I was working full time (and planning to finish in a few weeks) when this babe came early, so the kids still have ft daycare (a godsend right now). DP can be home another couple of weeks. We are in a fortunate position right now given the circumstances.


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

The upshot with breastfeeding is that once the baby is a little older and you get the sidelying "hold" down, you can sleep while he nurses at night...no bottles, tubes, mixing or warming anything, you can just take the breast out and go back to sleep.







Look forward to those days...they're what kept me going when my kids were itty bitty and couldn't latch on their own yet at night. But, yes, it SHOULD come easier as time goes on! Oh, Get thee a sling, if you don't already have one. It makes it seem a lot less constricting to have a baby whose nursing style is leisurely (and actually, that's a pretty normal pattern, even for a non-premie!)...too, it makes allllll the skin to skin time that you should be taking right now easier on your arms and on your other kids.


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## MOMGOTSPUNK (Dec 16, 2005)

Thank you so much for sharing your story, it is an encouragement to other mama out there! Thank you for your strength!







: Congratulations!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *courtenay_e* 
TOh, Get thee a sling, if you don't already have one. It makes it seem a lot less constricting to have a baby whose nursing style is leisurely (and actually, that's a pretty normal pattern, even for a non-premie!)...too, it makes allllll the skin to skin time that you should be taking right now easier on your arms and on your other kids.

They actually told us not to use any kind of baby carrier at the NICU. But, I think with some good sense, and considering he's equiv of 36 weeks now, I think it's a good idea. We do have a Maya lightly padded ring sling and a Moby wrap. Good thinking and thank you thank you thank you!

He's actually having a good break right now..i.e. sleeping for 2 hours. I spoke with the LC and she's suggested limiting his nursing sessions only in the sense that he's not actually nursing the whole time he's at breast. So, if he's there for 30+ minutes, I do recognize that he's not eating that whole time (Not because of the time, but because of his sucking motion and his not swallowing). I don't mind non-nutritive sucking, but I do when it goes on for hours and I'm exhausted and not able to lie down to nurse.


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## junamoss (Jun 24, 2004)

I don't have much to offer but support! Take care and good luck with the breech. A provider who can manage a breech delivery makes the difference, and there are so few out there!


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