# help me get my kids to listen



## AngieB (Oct 25, 2003)

This problem is driving me crazy. My kids (dd 6 and ds 4) will not listen to me or do what I say. I need some advise on how to get them to do what I ask and what type of discipline would be appropriate when they don't. Let me give an example.

Today my ds was opening the refrigerator door and kicking it closed over and over again. I told him to stop kicking the door. He walked away and then came right back and opened the door. I said "don't kick the door" and he did it again. I made him sit for a time out, but I wonder if there is a better way to handle it. I am so tired of saying the same thing over and over again and being ignored. I don't feel like they respect me at all.


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## Lisa Lubner (Feb 27, 2004)

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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

AngieB, check out the sticky at the top of this forum that suggests some really great books.
I especially like How to Talk so Your Kids will Listen, and Listen so your Kids Will Talk (Adele Faber) and Both of the Mary Sheedy Kurchinka books listed there...

If the fridge incident you described happend in my house, I would
1. Ask what my 4 year old was looking for in the fridge, and help get it out.
2. If it turns out they were just having fun kicking the door, I would explain that kicking the refrigerator door will damage our fridge ,remind them that we don't kick stuff in our house and suggest another outlet for the kicking (a ball, dancing, air karate...)
3. If they turned around to do it again, just to get to me. I would scoop them up and redirect them to something else with me, because obviously they are wanting my attention ( this is just in keeping with the fact that they are 4...if they were older, I might have a sit down talk to find out what was bothering them)


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I would avoid the power struggles with redirection. Instead of telling him what he can't do, I would say, "oh that looks like fun. Let's find some pillows to kick, do you want to kick them hard or kick them softly?" and whisk him away. I would also have him explain to you why you don't kick the refrigerator door instead of explaining it to him. I think he's old enough to know that it's not a good thing to do, he can probably tell you why not.

Also, remember to get to the root of the behavior. As I said before, he probably knows at this age that kicking the door is not a great thing to do so find out why he is doing it. He may not be able to verbalize his feelings so you'll have to ask yourself: are you not paying enough attention to him? Has something happened at school or with a playdate? Is he feeling like you are spending too much time with the baby?

I also urge you to check out the books. They will really help.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

"I would avoid the power struggles with redirection. Instead of telling him what he can't do, I would say, "oh that looks like fun. Let's find some pillows to kick, do you want to kick them hard or kick them softly?" and whisk him away"

That IS redirection!









"I would also have him explain to you why you don't kick the refrigerator door instead of explaining it to him. I think he's old enough to know that it's not a good thing to do, he can probably tell you why not."

When MY son was 4, if he were in the kinda mood to stand in the kitchen kicking the fridge over and over...asking him to quote to me "why" we don't do that would definately NOT work!


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## foreverinbluejeans (Jun 21, 2004)

The problem is that your children will not obey you. They listen to you, they have to if you are telling them not things over and over. They need to learn that you say what you mean and mean what you say. Distractions do not teach this. Time-outs (punishment) at best may stop bad behavior but do not teach good behavior.

Avoid telling your young children things more than once. If they don't do what you tell them to do then help them to do it - move them from the room, block the fridge door, feed them, ect. There are no warnings, no counting to 3. Avoid lectures and time outs. Make your voice appropriate to the situation.

You can teach your children to always respond to one word and a hand sign. When my youngest son was born I suffered nerve damage to my leg and couldn't walk. My husband left me and I had to learn how to single parent 3 boys from a wheelchair. I did learn to walk again but am very slow and sometimes have to use a wheelchair or walker.

The word I used was STOP and the hand signal like a traffic guard. When I used either, my children knew it was important and I expected compliance right away. I avoided overusing it and it evolved into the hand signal being more of a warning and a loud STOP along with the hand signal meaning the situation might be life threatening. Once your kids know you say what you mean, mean what you say, and will do something about it if they don't comply, you won't have to do anything more that give a hand signal or say something once and thy will do what you want.

How to Talk So Kids Will Listen is great but may be more appropriate for older kids. Your public library may have the audiotape parenting class set that goes with the book. Without Spanking or Spoiling or other books by Elizabeth Crary are aimed at toddlers and young children. Don't Shoot the Dog by Pryor is a great book for opening your mind to the many different ways you respond to behavior.


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## DaednuSO (Apr 16, 2004)

There's a part of me (and don't get me wrong, I believe in this whole GD business) that can't help but see this as rewarding bad behaviour.

If you have one child and limitless patience I'm sure that playing with, nurturing, etc. your child every minute of every day - that'll work.

What about in circumstances in which you have more than one child? Either you end up neglecting the one to constantly be on the other, the other will get the message that evil = attention, good = ignored and become just as evil, etc.

That's the ONLY drawback I see in this equation - and a very strong argument the wooden spoon brigade can make. I can't really discuss this with anyone not on here because the answer will be "after a few smacks the child WILL listen and settle down - rather than kill yourselves and neglect your other children, and not instilling discipline which isn't good for your child anyway."

So long as a child knows that bad behaviour will be rewarded with attention (and sometimes, with multiple kids, you can't just drop everything for that one child who needs "redirection") why listen? I'm asking for an honest answer to this - it's not a challenge. There's something to this gentle discipline I'm not getting. I see the "gentle" part but not the "discipline". Seems to me to be more about discipline avoidance.


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## burke-a-bee (Jan 8, 2005)

I have had this problem for what seems like forever. I feel that I get no respect either. I try to start the day with redirecting, explaining,etc.. But by the end of the day "NO!" and "STOP!" seem to be all I have energy for. I agree with redirecting, explaining, etc. but I just don't have any control...any ground to start from. My 5 year old listens to his brother who is 3 more than me. I feel as though I am a joke to them. The more I lose the power struggle the more I find myself lecturing, getting extremely frustrated, etc. It seems to be an endless cycle. Things like "Please get in your car seat and buckle up!" should be no need for a power struggle. I don't know how the basics can become so difficult. I am really losing.


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## DaednuSO (Apr 16, 2004)

The problem with this appears to me that people being human, eventually you get to the point where even if you don't smack the bottom of the now-has-been-whining-and-hitting-and-biting-and-breaking-things-for-hours child you at the very least start talking harshly and simply turning it into a power struggle, which by definition YOU WILL LOSE

I really hope a GD guru can shed some light here. I really want to get this.


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *burke-a-bee*
It seems to be an endless cycle. Things like "Please get in your car seat and buckle up!" should be no need for a power struggle. I don't know how the basics can become so difficult. I am really losing.









I am in this boat with you. From DD's infancy (and before), I had it set in my head to never use corporal punishment and avoid unneccessary power struggles. My DD is 2.5 and I try to empower her with choices and negotiation. You should see some of the outfits we have gone out in public in!







But I'm with you, getting into your carseat, changing a poopy diaper, putting the winter coat on because it is 30 below outside - sorry, these things have to be done. How does one avoid the power struggle? She has been able to negotiate 5 more minutes before the diaper gets changed and has picked out the coat herself - why isn't that working?!


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
"I would avoid the power struggles with redirection. Instead of telling him what he can't do, I would say, "oh that looks like fun. Let's find some pillows to kick, do you want to kick them hard or kick them softly?" and whisk him away"

That IS redirection!


















Didn't I say that? I was giving an example of redirection.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
"I would also have him explain to you why you don't kick the refrigerator door instead of explaining it to him. I think he's old enough to know that it's not a good thing to do, he can probably tell you why not."

When MY son was 4, if he were in the kinda mood to stand in the kitchen kicking the fridge over and over...asking him to quote to me "why" we don't do that would definately NOT work!

But it might work with her child. It works very well with my daughter - she is 4. When she is doing something that she knows she shouldn't, I can give her "the look" and say, "why are you not supposed to do ___________?" and she can answer. That usually stops the whole thing without having to do any type of redirection.

I know that the things that I suggested may not work for all kids but I'm just trying to help...


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Well, I'm definately no guru of anything, but I have 3 kids ( 4 1/2, 6 1/2, and 8 1/2). GD has defenately worked for me. I've said this in other posts, but to me GD does NOT equal NO Discipline. We do have rules and limits in our house! I think a lot of people assume that GD means just let kids do whatever they want, don't punish them, don't ever tell them "No" etc.. I don't agree. I think there are kind and gentle ways to teach kids how be part of civilized society that don't require shaming, hitting, and screaming and the like. So far so good in my house. I often am complimented on what pleasant children I have. and we certainly are happy.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

LoveBeadsI know that the things that I suggested may not work for all kids but I'm just trying to help...[/QUOTE said:


> I didn't mean to come off like you weren't, sorry. I was actually chuckling to myself just imagining me saying that to MY son at the time! NOT a tactic that would have worked with him! :LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaednuSO*
There's a part of me (and don't get me wrong, I believe in this whole GD business) that can't help but see this as rewarding bad behaviour.

If you have one child and limitless patience I'm sure that playing with, nurturing, etc. your child every minute of every day - that'll work.

What about in circumstances in which you have more than one child? Either you end up neglecting the one to constantly be on the other, the other will get the message that evil = attention, good = ignored and become just as evil, etc.

That's the ONLY drawback I see in this equation - and a very strong argument the wooden spoon brigade can make. I can't really discuss this with anyone not on here because the answer will be "after a few smacks the child WILL listen and settle down - rather than kill yourselves and neglect your other children, and not instilling discipline which isn't good for your child anyway."

So long as a child knows that bad behaviour will be rewarded with attention (and sometimes, with multiple kids, you can't just drop everything for that one child who needs "redirection") why listen? I'm asking for an honest answer to this - it's not a challenge. There's something to this gentle discipline I'm not getting. I see the "gentle" part but not the "discipline". Seems to me to be more about discipline avoidance.

I think you need to look at the big picture when you decide on a discipline technique. If you (and let me clarify that I don't mean "you" as in "you", I mean the universal "you") want to get through each day with as much obedience and as little work as possible, then smack your kids each time they disobey. It's fast, it's easy, it probably will stop the unruly behavior.

If you want to have a long-term, connected and loving relationship with your children, you will need to figure out ways to guide their behaviors, to teach them the right way to approach challenges, and to do so in a way that preserves their dignity. GD is a tremendous amount of work but you get back tenfold of what you put in. It teaches self-discipline instead of "I don't want to get caught".

Yes, it requires enormous patience and creativity and every single one of us loses it from time to time.

As for the wooden spoon brigade, if they feel that having one of their children witness another getting hit for misbehaving instead of watching a mother help her child work it out, then I would just have to say that we have different parenting goals. Parenting with fear is just out of the question in my household.

I also think that proper GD is not just about misbehavior = attention and good behavior = being ignored. GD is all about positive reinforcement when things are going well. If you are ignoring your well-behaved child, you're not practicing GD. (again, not saying "you" as in "you")


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
If you want to have a long-term, connected and loving relationship with your children, you will need to figure out ways to guide their behaviors, to teach them the right way to approach challenges, and to do so in a way that preserves their dignity. GD is a tremendous amount of work but you get back tenfold of what you put in. It teaches self-discipline instead of "I don't want to get caught".











Nicely said!


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

I totally get the philosophy and understand the long-term benefits, and am committed to raising my children with GD, but I guess I just need some concrete, day-to-day advice. How do you get your toddler to do the things that HAVE to be done (ie: get in the car seat , put on your coat, change the diaper) without turning them into a power struggle? Am I just expecting too much maybe? Do I need to adjust my expectations and learn to accept that at this age, she is going to throw a hissy and hit during certain activites and hope the stage will pass quickly?


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

At a risk of sounding simplistic, here I go from all the advice I've been reading for the past.. 18 months and experience:

-get in the carseat:
"would you like to hold my keys while I put you in the carseat?" or "as soon as you get in the carseat we'll drive to the park"

-put on coat:
"would you like me to put on your coat or would you like to do it yourself?" or "It's cold, you may want to wear your coat". If they don't want to wear it, let them experience a bit of cold. Don't rescue if it's not dangerous.

-change the diaper:
"would you like to change your diaper on the bed or on the floor?" or " would you like to hold the wipe as I change your diaper?" or "as soon as we change your diaper we'll read a story" or "Let me teach you how to wipe yourself"..Validate feelings: "I know you don't like to change your diaper, but I'll do it quickly and soon you'll be dry."

Hope some of these work! I have had success with my toddler so far









Cheers,


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *addiesmom*
How do you get your toddler to do the things that HAVE to be done (ie: get in the car seat , put on your coat, change the diaper) without turning them into a power struggle? Am I just expecting too much maybe? Do I need to adjust my expectations and learn to accept that at this age, she is going to throw a hissy and hit during certain activites and hope the stage will pass quickly?

Yes and no. In the beginning, GD takes a lot of thought but believe it or not (and I know you don't believe it!), it will come totally naturally before long. You will become the creative mama that you never thought you could become. Honestly!

Some of what you describe is just the age and will pass but there are ways to make it less painful.

Because my DD has SID, she was a horrible transitioner. I developed a ton of tricks to get her from A to B which DH had very little patience for in the beginning. He soon saw that my way, although it seemed complicated, was in fact much easier because I learned how to elicit cooperation from my DD instead of power struggle with her (which I would always lose, by the way).

To avoid the struggles, you run down your list of usual suspects: Tired? Hungry? Overstimulated? Wet? Poopy? You get the picture. First rule those out.

Now, to get DD into the carseat was very much of a struggle for me so I would do the following:

"Do you want to hop to the car or fly?"
"Do you want to unlock the car doors with this thing (car door thing)?"
"Will you carry this package to the car for me?"
"Can you look and see if there are any doggies on the way to the car?"
"Do you want to climb up yourself or do you want me to help you?"
"Can you help me buckle you in?"
"Are you going to have pretzels or water in the car?"
"Let's try to see how fast we can get buckled in - maybe we can do it before I get to 10"

etc.

The coat: "Will you help me zip up your coat?"
"Do you want to wear your blue coat or your red one?"
"Can you help me put my coat on and then I can help you put yours on?"
etc.

The diaper: "Can you pick out a diaper for me?"
"Do you want to run to the changing table or skip?"
"Can you hold lthe wipes for me while I change your diaper?"
"Let's change your diaper and then we can have a snack, play a game, etc."

By giving DD benign choices, she felt empowered. By empowering her, I got her to cooperate instead of fight me. Nobody would relish being stopped in the middle of something fun to change a poopy diaper - I had to make the diaper change as much fun as the activity we were doing beforehand.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

One thing I find helpful with toddlers is to give them some advanced notice before transitions. Don't expect a toddler to just "switch gears" the way we Mom's can at the drop of a hat.
For instance...toddler is in the middle of playing and become aware there is a poopy diaper. Let them know that you would like to change the diaper, let them (or help them) finish what they are doing, then change the diaper.
Or..when mine is coloring a picture, and it's time to leave the house, if I "say lets to get in the car" (there has usually been at least one advanced notice) I know she NEEDS to finish what she's doing before she puts the crayon down, so she does, and then we go . I used to think she was ignoring me when she didn't just drop the crayon when I said to, it took me time to realize she WAS getting ready to stop, she just has to finish... honestly I do the same thing.


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## DaednuSO (Apr 16, 2004)

RE: The diaper: "Can you pick out a diaper for me?"

And then the child gets wise to this and basically says "No, I'd rather continue booting the cat."

And when you try and engage the child in a meaningful dialogue on not booting the cat, the child turns away from you, hits you, and refuses to pay attention.

Or, when you have another child in need of more immediate attention, the other one acts up, you cannot treat that one like the center of the universe.

I'm not discounting this per se - I'm just saying that "well, you simply redirect" doesn't work when you CAN'T. And "well, you engage the child in a dialog" doesn't work when the child WILL NOT LISTEN. And "well, you drop everything and play with the child" doesn't work when you're trying to feed the other one.

The point is, it seems to me GD works if and only if the child is into it, as well. If the child doesn't want to play along then you're stuck with an unruly, abusive, screaming drain on time, energy and patience.

Now, I'm not saying "I want to give in and smack the kid"

I'm saying "I've only ever heard how great GD is when the going is good." If the answer is basically "and if your child doesn't want to play ball, life is going to become a living hell and you'll be divorced within seven months cause you'll eventually start sniping at each other" then what good is GD. I know that's not the answer - what I'm getting at is, there are a lot of people saying there are times when they cannot pull the whole GD trip and/or times when the kid isn't into it. So what other tools are in the toolbox besides playing with the child and/or making its environment perfect?


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## DaednuSO (Apr 16, 2004)

Take the above as an over exaggeration to make a point. Obviously kids aren't abusive or drains on time. But you get my drift. Hour one, you can rationalize. Six days, no sleep and yet another screaming fit later....

It starts to get to the point where parenting isn't enjoyable, it becomes a burden, and it's no fun for the kids, either.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

I was going to same almost the same as cmb123. I used to get so frustrated thinking my DS was ignoring me when I'd ask him to do something or state we gotta go. I was hung up on why he wasn't respecting me, without realizing I wasn't respecting him. My partner doesn't state "we gotta go" and then expect me to drop everything and rush out the door. It takes time. Something usually has to be finished or put down, then there's a quick mirror check, or a quick brush of the teeth, I have to grab my coat, mittens, get my boots on. Do I have my wallet? Keys? Never would my partner start on me about how it has to happen now, because that would be infuriating and demeaning. Same goes for my son when he's bossy or demanding - I don't jump to what he's asking.

It can take me a moment or two to switch gears. How many times a day do we ask our babes for patience as we finish what we're doing so we can do what they're asking? I know I use it more than once. So if I'm going to teach my son the concept of respect I need to show him what it is, what it feels like to be respected. I only ask once and then give some time. If it's dangerous I'll remove him from where he is or what he's doing, but most of the time it's not. After a few minutes if he's not ready I'll ask how I can help him get ready to switch what he's doing...does he need help cleaning up the crayons? Can I tie his boots? Etc..

I guess it comes down to what we're striving for...I'm not looking to raise an adult who obeys everytime he's spoken to. It sure would make my life easier if I was, but I don't see my son as someone who should be controlled - not by me or anyone. Obedience isn't worth fighting for for me.


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## burke-a-bee (Jan 8, 2005)

I'm sorry..as I was reading the replies my 5yr old was pulling the cats tail ( a two year struggle with us) and when I asked him if that is how we treat the cat he just smiled ..jumped up and down and ran away..back to reading. I hope I learn something here.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

DaednuSo,

I hear the frustration in your voice, I really do. And I don't think there's many here who haven't felt it, or feel it from time to time. I say this almost everytime I post so bear with me. And if you've read it before, sorry.

What really made and makes GD work for me is being realistic about what my child can and cannot do. To be honest with myself when it comes to whether or not I'm asking my DS to do something he can do. Am I expecting too much for his age? That doesn't mean I don't try to model it and talk about it, but it means that I realize whether a certain skill or behaviour is a short term or long term goal. We talk alot about compassion and respect in our house. We use those terms because they are important to us. We've used them since he was pre-verbal. But we haven't been expecting all along he can be those things; at one, or two, or three. It's something he's growing into.

Reading about what's age appropriate and responding to annoying stuff with that knowledge has made a big difference. It's let me drop a lot of power struggles. And I do still get frustrated but, because I know whether or not I'm expecting age appropraite behaviours, I can check myself and how I'm responding to my frustrations.

Someone mentioned GD not being an easy road, and it's not. It does require a lot from us, and it's a learning process. But so is what I'm expecting of my DS. He has a lot to learn as he grows and it's not always going to be done with ease for either of us. It's hard to say the same things over and over, but our kids haven't had (in my case) 31 years to learn that it's not OK to boot the cat. My son's only had 4. If saying something over and over isn't working I try to find another way to say the same thing. When I was teaching in a grade nine art class I learned that we don't all speak in the same metaphors, so it would sometimes take me explaining the same instructions four or five different ways before all students knew what they were supposed to do.

Hope something in this helps.

Nicole.


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## burke-a-bee (Jan 8, 2005)

Okay I've read the responses. as far as switching gears...here's an example of why I get frustrated... I have told my kids from the moment that we've woken up in the morning the game plan of going to the grocery store. I gently remind them through out the morning. I ask them to get dressed so we can go..I do the whole "Ten minutes!" thing..."Five minutes!" As I am struggling to get out the door..they complain and ask "Where are we going?" I just feel like crying! There is no team effort. So it makes simple things become struggles. I feel that I have four people ( this includes my husband) working against me.
I have read some books on GD and it works sometimes. We have our good days. And believe me I think over every seconds of that day for possible clues on how to get other days to go better. But I have three kids...somethings work when you have one.....I can't redirect a dog hitting, peanut butter smearing, writing on the walls child while the other two are standing on the dining table, cleaning the inside of the fish tank with their hands, playing in the toilet,etc. All I'm saying is that some of these ideas are beyond my reach sometimes. These are the times when I stand in the grocery store and look at children calmly walking with their parents and think "What am I doing wrong?" "What are they doing that I'm not?" "Why are my kids wrestling in the aisle knocking over the soap and deodorant while their child is sitting in the cart not saying a word?"


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

i hope some of the GD gurus will respond to this, too. i think it helps if there are concrete scenarios to respond to.

burke-a-bee, in your example of the grocery store my first thought was some kids like to shop and some don't. i have a friend with just two, but her 21 mo old ds is a terror in the grocery store so she either goes alone or with her 3.5 yr old dd. this, of course, means enlisting dh's help or somebody else's (grandparent, neighbor, babysitter, friend).

your "no team effort" comment caught my eye. i just received the book "loving each one best" by nancy samalin and have only read the first 30 pages or so, but there was this passage i'll retype here in hopes that it'll offer commiseration if nothing else. (when i get further in the book maybe i'll find something more helpful :LOL.)

Quote:

Like many of today's mothers who have achieved success in the workplace, Jenny was frustrated because the skills she had mastered didn't work with her kids. But why would they? One reason you can't apply the same skills to child raising is because kids don't share your goals. When you need to get out the door to your office or her school, your child is suddenly transfixed by the dog scratching fleas. You can't "manage" him. Parents who view their children as "part of a team" are in for a rude awakening when they try to reach a consensus on anything at all. We need a different set of skills and expectations for this job!
hth a little


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Oh, beanma, I LOVE that quote. It sounds like a great book. It's helpful to be reminded that kids and adults don't have the same goals.

And I am not at all a GD guru, but in the case of the grocery store I too would just not take the kids. Sometimes it's just not worth it, so it means I run my errands when my partner is home. That way I'm not assaulted by the constant asking for things. No fights that way.

Really listening to your kids when they're talking or showing you who or where they are keeps the power struggles and fights to a minimum. My DS could not sit through a play for the life of him, so when playgroup is going to a kids puppet show I decline that outing. He's repeatedly shown me that he isn't interested and I've started listening. Same goes for errands, shopping etc. Some kids can do it, some can't. Some things can't always be avoided so you take along a book, or some snacks, but the more you can elimiate the situations which cause power struggles the better for your sanity.

Instead of always needing redirection, can you start your day with direction? If you know DX likes to paint and DY likes to smear peanut butter can you start their day off paper and finger paints spread out on the floor while you, in the same room, help DZ get dressed and DU has a snack? For me, and I know we all work differently so this may not work for you, I think I would feel better being proactive and introducing something right off the bat to interest them instead of trying to get stuff done first thing and risk the chance my DS is in another room grating carrots and pouring water all over them to make soup, which happened today while I was getting laundry going. I should have made sure he was engaged in something holding his attention before I decided to head to the basement. That or asked him if he wanted to come along and load the machine, which he likes to do. If I ahve to get something done I try to involve him, and his friends if they're over, as much as possible. At 4 they love to help and it usually means I can get what I need done done.


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## burke-a-bee (Jan 8, 2005)

I hear your point..but do I not take the kids grocery shopping because it is not fun for them? I disagree. We all enjoy the food. They should understand that if we want to eat we must go grocery shopping. How do they learn to be patient, respectful, etc in public if I don't take them places. It just seems unrealistic to me. As far as my hubby goes in helping out, he has been away on a job for a month at a time. I certainly can't go without food for a month because the kids can't contain themselves for thirty minutes in the grocery store. I have no friends , family , etc. in the area. No help there.
No we don't have the same goal but if we are going to be a family unit I feel then we need to work together. Sometimes I think that we have been too entertaining with our children. When the entertainment or attention is off of them everything starts to break down. Sometimes my husband and I can't even have a conversation without attention grabbing behavior. That is when I really notice the respect is just not there.
I really hope this doesn't come off as bitter. I am just frustrated with the whole thing.
Sorry if I got way off the subject.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *burke-a-bee*
I hear your point..but do I not take the kids grocery shopping because it is not fun for them? I disagree. We all enjoy the food. They should understand that if we want to eat we must go grocery shopping. How do they learn to be patient, respectful, etc in public if I don't take them places. It just seems unrealistic to me.

I agree with nicole lisa. I think part of lessening your frustration is done by adjusting your expectations. Obviously your kids are not real cooperative in the grocery store (I have the same problem, I feel your pain!) so expecting them to behave is going to frustrate you. "They should understand" is something that comes in time but they will not learn that lesson by driving you crazy at the grocery store. I don't think you should never bring your kids out into public places but the grocery store is a tough one.

So what can you do about it? That's the question! First I would advise avoiding it: I know you said DH is away for a month at a time - do you have any friends you can do a co-op babysitting thing with? You'll do her grocery shopping if she takes your kids or vice versa? Do you have Peapod (grocery delivery service)? Can you hire a mother's helper for a few hours per month? If you are not getting one single break in a month's time it is no wonder that you aren't climbing the walls, I don't know how you do that!

Can you farm out one or two of the kids so that you only have to take one grocery shopping? It would be easier that way.

If you must take all three then you just need to be prepared that it's going to be unpleasant so give them jobs (you get the milk, you pick out the cucumbers, you get the sugar, etc.) I also let DD pick 1 (one!) thing that she wants that I would not normally buy for her. She always picks those Godawful fruit snacks but it really gives her a thrill because it's forbidden fruit. I find that if I give jobs and the treat of picking an item then it is a bit better.

But I want to get back to one other thing. I think you need to find some type of outlet if you are truly alone for a month at a time, some type of break. There is no way that you can do what you do and do it happily if you don't have any time to yourself (at least I wouldn't be able to). I hope you'll figure out some way to do that and I'd be happy to try to think of some things as well.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

burke-a-bee,

Hopefully someone else will come along who is able to help you brainstorm. We all come at GD differently and for me inherent in the philosophy is listening to kids and being intuitive to their needs and abilities so that I can set up my house and day to minimize the chance of a struggle or tantrum. And that works for me and it means that I'm able to work on what I want to teach, gently, without getting distracted or drawn in to a frustrating situation.

I think part of the problem with deciding to GD and then implement it is for most of us, I would guess, we are all the first generation GDers. So when we find our babes being age appropriate and not listening or talking back, testing boundries etc we are at a loss because we didn't do those things to our own parents. But I don't know if I respected my parents as a young child - I don't think I knew what it was. But I did know that if I acted a certain way I would be grounded, or yelled at, or few and far between, spanked. So I think a lot of kids acted above what was age appropraite because of fear. And kids who are GD'd don't have that fear, which is an excellent thing. Growing wasn't a discussion, a negotiation, a process in my family and it wasn't mutual. It wasn't abusive at all, but it did adhere to a top down management structure. And with GD I'm taking a different path - it is more democratic and inclusive.

The thing is as adults we don't listen to everything we're told and often we don't do things we don't want to do. My GP's nurse practitiner told me I should read and practice 123Magic. I didn't listen. Every day I make decisions as to what I will and won't do, regardless of what, on a societal and employment level, I am told I need to. So it makes sense that kids will do the same. It would make sense that they don't always listen or do what they're told - that they would weigh whether or not what was being asked of them was worth doing or not. And that's where I come from when I parent. It's important to me that my son gorws up knowing he can weigh thoughts and requests and act from there. That doesn't mean there aren't consequences for decisions, but I'm not going to fight over whether he can or can't decide to listen or act.

For you, maybe GD looks differently. It is a process and we all come at it from different places.

It can be fun, really.


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## burke-a-bee (Jan 8, 2005)

Thanks! I really don't know anyone here. My poor husband is trying to find friends for me. I went to his work last month and he was pointing out random people I might could be friends with. I truely feel like a loser. But there are worse things. I just look at it as a unique situation that we are in. My husband works no less than 10 hours a day and like I said sometimes he is out of town a month at a time. We live in a large city and it is hard to meet people. We go to the grocery store very often. It is just down the street. I might try the "pick out one thing" method.
I think I do need an outlet. Sometimes I go weeks without having a face to face conversation with an adult. Thanks for the support.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Hi burke-a-bee. I totally get what you are saying. I have limited help with child care, so I reserve those times for things like Dr's appointments. I am fortunate enough to have some great friends IRL, but we all have small children and we're spread out and worn out :LOL So I get why going shopping with all the kids is just something that you need to do.

I sling my youngest dc when I go. We bring lists and calculators and the kids "help" by using their calculators to add up are purchases. We have had some tough trips, but I feel the same way you do. Grocery stores and other errands are part of life in our family and we all just work to get better at it together. If I "used up" my babysitting help for things like grocery shopping, I'd never have help when I really need it.

For me, having three children is so much harder than it was to have two children. Following through with GD and thinking rationally in the heat of the moment is hard to do when that "moment" seems to be just a string of moments that last hours or days. PM me any time that you want to burke-a-bee. I'm always trying to learn and grow as a parent, and that's the best I can do.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *addiesmom*
I am in this boat with you. From DD's infancy (and before), I had it set in my head to never use corporal punishment and avoid unneccessary power struggles. My DD is 2.5 and I try to empower her with choices and negotiation. You should see some of the outfits we have gone out in public in!







But I'm with you, getting into your carseat, changing a poopy diaper, putting the winter coat on because it is 30 below outside - sorry, these things have to be done. How does one avoid the power struggle? She has been able to negotiate 5 more minutes before the diaper gets changed and has picked out the coat herself - why isn't that working?!

My opinion is DO NOT negotiate about non-negotiables. Do not even start. Talk as if something is a given, act as if it is a given. If your dd wpn't put on her coat, put it on her struggle or not, quickly and walk out the door. Or pick up the coat and the child and walk out without it...
Decide ahead of time, is it non-negotiable in that you will do it for her? Or is it a natural consequence situation and therefore not worth insisting (as in the cold is a natural and safe consequence for not wearing coat)? And as a pp said, make your request only once, then follow through.

When there is no choice, do not use language that offers the child a choice. Sometimes with a real choice I set a time limit by counting: I might say "You can brush your teeth now or I will do it for you. I will count to five and then if you are not doing it I will do it for you." That gives a definite space for the choice but you can nip stalling in the bud by absolutely following through at five.

I consider this "parent will do it for you if you don't do it yourself" a natural consequence for non-negotiables.

I think it is a trap for parents when they think that they must have the child's agreement about everything expected of the child. Talking a child into it is like getting their permission. For me, this is not a useful approach.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Just this morning I heard my mother's words issue forth from my mouth as if I were possessed: "Do you think I tell you to do things just for the fun of it?? Do you think I just like to hear myself talk??"







: It was like an out of body experience, but I was *so* frustrated and angry at being ignored!

It's not always so bad for me though. I've got a cold today, and I'm pretty sleep deprived. I've noticed that the more drained I am, the less creative and upbeat I am with the kids. I fall into the mind-set of "Just do what I tell you for once because I'm so exhausted." It never works -- only makes things worse, acutally. Sleep is a big part of the solution for me. (Which is why I have to finish this up and get to bed!) Organization is key too. I recently changed our morning routine because every single day was a struggle to get to preschool on time.







I remembered that quote about how insane it is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results. The kids were fine with the changes, but it's new for all of us, and I forgot a key step this morning (having dd get dressed immediately after waking -- before she gets involved with reading or playing or eating.) It made a big difference for the worse.

As for the grocery store, I've had fairly good luck with a "3 strike rule" with my 2 y.o. If I have to chase him or stop him from taking things off the shelf 3 times, he must ride in the cart for the rest of the shopping trip. He is an "engergetic" little guy, and harder to shop with than dd ever was. He's thrown a couple of fits in the cart when I enforced this rule, but now he's a better shopper. I often take him alone while dd (4) is in preschool. If they both come with me it's harder, especially at the health food grocery where they only have smallish carts. I can't put them both in. At the big grocery, they have carts with a child bench attached so I can "bench" both of them if necessary. (These carts would accomodate 3 children provided one of them is small enough to sit in the "regular" cart seat. You could fit 2 bigger kids on the bench and a toddler or younger child in the cart seat.) Having snacks can help too -- they are often willing to sit on the bench and have a snack for at least half the shopping trip.

I'll second the tactic of letting them pick one treat. It really cuts down on the begging. If they beg, your answer is "sure, if you want to have that be your one treat." If they've already picked one, they have to decide if they want to switch it or not. (Thinking keeps 'em quiet for a couple of minutes, anyway! :LOL ) I've stopped taking my 4 y.o. to the big grocery store unless it's unavoidable. The marketing that is targeted at kids is so overwhelming. I spend half the trip trying to explain why we are buying the boring healthy brand (which she likes just fine) rather than the junky one that has the cartoon character on it.







I know this isn't possible for Burke-a-bee,







but that's what works for me.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

deporgarten, I use a similar approach. I say something like, "You need to put your bowl in the sink." If she doesn't, I repeat what I said. If she doesn't move, I take her hand and hold the bowl in her hand and help her to walk to the sink. It is not punitive, it is not angry, it is simply matter-of-fact. Many times your child will NOT be happy. They may kick and scream and yell and cry. This does not mean you are being punitive - it means they're reacting to the boundary you have set.

Now, these boundaries must be both reasonable and age appropriate. In the above example I think it is both reasonable and age appropriate for her (3 yo) to take her stuff to the sink. I give two requests (as I know personally I often don't hear things the first time) and then follow through. Yes, sometimes this means putting the nursing baby down.

And I agree with a previous poster about looking for the reason behind the behaviour. This doesn't mean it's appropriate, but it will help you know how to react and address the behaviour. As my friend says, "Age appropriate does not mean appropriate."







It's our job to teach them how to react appropriately.

As far as the grocery store, in addition to the above suggestions, I would outline to my children my expectations and how you want them to behave prior to entering the store. In theory I don't like rewards but we usually do swing by the bakery and get the free cookie. She also helps pick things out.

The biggest thing that has helped me is where to draw the line...if I'm feeling frustrated I need to draw the line closer to me and act sooner...otherwise I find myself overwhelmed that "she's not listening" and feel angry.







I also find my patience is directly related to how much sleep I get...

I hear everyone's frustrations. Today was an exceptionally frustrating day.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaednoSO*
What about in circumstances in which you have more than one child? Either you end up neglecting the one to constantly be on the other, the other will get the message that evil = attention, good = ignored and become just as evil, etc.

That's the ONLY drawback I see in this equation - and a very strong argument the wooden spoon brigade can make. I can't really discuss this with anyone not on here because the answer will be "after a few smacks the child WILL listen and settle down - rather than kill yourselves and neglect your other children, and not instilling discipline which isn't good for your child anyway."

I think I get what you are saying here..... I'm no GD guru by any means, but this is my take on that kind of situation.

My DD (6 1/2) is 2 years older than my DS(4 & a bit). She has always been a very.... demanding sort of child, one who needs constant attention & needs to be the centre of attention. She is a challenge, but she is very, very lovely in many ways. My DS is more reserved & more focused, but is also very passionate & can be hard to distract. When they were 4 & 2 I had a lot of trouble sorting out who to deal with first when they both demanded attention &/or had a disagreement (usually at the same time







). My DD is much more vocal in her opinion, & she will..... lie to cover herself. I don't quite know why, but she does. I have found it useful at times to require her to sit in one place until I work out what has happened. Not necessarily a chair, just right there on the floor will do. And I demand that they stay in one place until I hear both sides. I will return my kids back to their spot & repeat 'Stay there until you are ready to tell me what happened'.... I can vocally be quite 'stern' at these times, & my kids aren't very happy when I do this (many tears involved, usually), but I _make_ them sort it out. I try very hard to make each side understand the other. Sometimes we achieve a breakthrough with empathy, other times not.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *addiesmom*
My DD is 2.5 and I try to empower her with choices and negotiation. You should see some of the outfits we have gone out in public in! But I'm with you, getting into your carseat, changing a poopy diaper, putting the winter coat on because it is 30 below outside - sorry, these things have to be done. How does one avoid the power struggle?

Well..... some things are non-negotiable. Like car seats & wearing a winter jacket on a -30 degree day. I'd say that at 2.5 your DD has a choice with the poopy diaper. She can either have mama change it when she fills the diaper, or she can choose to use the potty/toilet herself & enjoy the thrill of seeing the toilet flush with her offereings..... I guess I have used the term 'non-negotiable' with my kids from an early age..... I don't use it often (safety is a biggie) but they know when I say it, I mean it. Dunno, hope that gives you some ideas/thoughts...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CMB123*
Or..when mine is coloring a picture, and it's time to leave the house, if I "say lets to get in the car" (there has usually been at least one advanced notice) I know she NEEDS to finish what she's doing before she puts the crayon down, so she does, and then we go . I used to think she was ignoring me when she didn't just drop the crayon when I said to, it took me time to realize she WAS getting ready to stop, she just has to finish...

With all due respect, how long does it take for your DD to finish her picture? Five minutes? Ten? A half an hour? What do you do when you have a plane to meet, or an appointment, or another child to pick up from school, yk?? I think that's what some PPs mean when they talk about how to GD when circumstances aren't perfect, yk? WHat do we do then??

And as far as booting an animal goes.... no mAtter what age, they come & sit in mamas lap & have a very serious talk about how we don't hurt animals. ( i must say, I don't have this problem much) They might be sitting there for 10 minutes or more, we might have to move into a different room if the discussion gets intense (ie: my child has decided to scream & flail about), but we talk about how it is wrong to hurt animals- nothing too graphic of course, just repetition of the simple message 'We don't hurt animals/others- it's mean.' or whatever. Kids know it's serious business when you sit them down & don't let them escape the conversation, I think.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *burke-a-bee*
I hear your point..but do I not take the kids grocery shopping because it is not fun for them? I disagree. We all enjoy the food. They should understand that if we want to eat we must go grocery shopping. How do they learn to be patient, respectful, etc in public if I don't take them places. It just seems unrealistic to me. As far as my hubby goes in helping out, he has been away on a job for a month at a time. I certainly can't go without food for a month because the kids can't contain themselves for thirty minutes in the grocery store. I have no friends , family , etc. in the area. No help there.
No we don't have the same goal but if we are going to be a family unit I feel then we need to work together.

Right then- the grocery store sounds like a disaster...... Have you tried giving your older ones the 'family unit' speech? The one about how you all have to work together until dad gets back? Can you get the older kids to find items on the shelf for you? Ask them to remember what the cereal packet looks like, 'hmmmm..... now can you find the butter that looks like the one in the fridge?' That sort of thing, yk? And if worst comes to worst.... natural consequences..... Kids won't let you shop for groceries??? Well, I guess it's toasted plain bread (or whatever is mildly unpleasant for them) for dinner tonight then.....

just my humble opinion.......


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aussiemum*

With all due respect, how long does it take for your DD to finish her picture? Five minutes? Ten? A half an hour? What do you do when you have a plane to meet, or an appointment, or another child to pick up from school, yk?? I think that's what some PPs mean when they talk about how to GD when circumstances aren't perfect, yk? WHat do we do then??


No, we're talking less than a minute. I literally meant that if I say it's time to go and she's in the middle coloring in a shoe, she needs to finish the shoe. If I were needing to catch a plane or something, everything would be different! I was just talking about your basic everyday getting out the door kinda thing!

A lot of stuff has been written since I last checked this thread yesterday! I can see the frustration for sure! I honestly don't know what I'd do if in the situations that have been mentioned...cleaning out fishtanks with hands, jumping up and down on the table, running around the grocery store and taking stuff off of the shelves, kicking animals..I've never experienced that kind of stuff! Maybe I just have 3 pretty mellow kids...dunno.

Those of you who are having these issues. Do you have a sense of where the disconnect is? Do you have any idea why or how things got to this point?


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## burke-a-bee (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:

cleaning out fishtanks with hands, jumping up and down on the table, running around the grocery store and taking stuff off of the shelves, kicking animals..I've never experienced that kind of stuff! Maybe I just have 3 pretty mellow kids...dunno.
Well,well,well,well, yes those are my kids. I really don't like it when mothers give you that " my child would never do such a thing" . Congrats! Now can I get some suppot not finger pointing.
Yes my children run around the grocery store, stand on the table, have cleaned the fish tank with thier hands, etc. I have removed them from the situation, taken way privilages, lectured, had time outs, etc. I have tried them all. As far as the animal hitting, kicking goes, we went through that phase for about two years. I cried, got angry, calmy discussed why we don't hit.That is why I am here to get your opinion, help, expert advice.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *burke-a-bee*
Well,well,well,well, yes those are my kids. I really don't like it when mothers give you that " my child would never do such a thing" .

Hmmm. I read it more as, "I wish I could help you more, but I can't since I don't have the required experience in those areas." Perhaps you have felt scorn from other mamas, but I didn't read sarcasm or judgement in her post, just frustration that she coudn't help more. Sometimes it's hard to brainstorm ideas w/o seeming trite if you gaven't gone through it, kwim? We know you're here for help/support, mama - we all are! I'm sorry if you feel you're not getting the answers you need...


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *burke-a-bee*
Well,well,well,well, yes those are my kids. I really don't like it when mothers give you that " my child would never do such a thing" . Congrats! Now can I get some suppot not finger pointing.
.

Holy Cow! That's not at all what I meant at all!

It's just that I posted a couple of times earlier in the thread with GD ideas that after reading the later posts I can see must seem idealistic or usless for the real issues that were later posted.
Believe me, I'm the last person to say or think "my child would never do such a thing" I've just never been in those exact kind of situations. We have other issues, trust me!


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *canadiyank*
Hmmm. I read it more as, "I wish I could help you more, but I can't since I don't have the required experience in those areas." Perhaps you have felt scorn from other mamas, but I didn't read sarcasm or judgement in her post, just frustration that she coudn't help more. Sometimes it's hard to brainstorm ideas w/o seeming trite if you gaven't gone through it, kwim? We know you're here for help/support, mama - we all are! I'm sorry if you feel you're not getting the answers you need...

Yes exactly!!!


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## burke-a-bee (Jan 8, 2005)

Sorry! Thanks for all your help.


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## AngieB (Oct 25, 2003)

The suggestion have been helpful, but no one has addressed the "what next?" If the re-direction, giving choice and such don't work, then what? That's where I'm at a loss. Someone made the point that we are all 1st generation GDers, which for me is very true. When I was a kid and got out of line the first respone was to yell and then a smack if we didn't stop the behaivor. I don't want to do that but I don't know another way so alot of time I ignore the behavior or spend most of the day pleeding with them to behave.


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## AngieB (Oct 25, 2003)

sorry double post







:


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## burke-a-bee (Jan 8, 2005)

"The suggestion have been helpful, but no one has addressed the "what next?" If the re-direction, giving choice and such don't work, then what? That's where I'm at a loss. Someone made the point that we are all 1st generation GDers, which for me is very true. When I was a kid and got out of line the first respone was to yell and then a smack if we didn't stop the behaivor. I don't want to do that but I don't know another way so alot of time I ignore the behavior or spend most of the day pleeding with them to behave."

Same feeling here!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *burke-a-bee*
"The suggestion have been helpful, but no one has addressed the "what next?" If the re-direction, giving choice and such don't work, then what? That's where I'm at a loss. Someone made the point that we are all 1st generation GDers, which for me is very true. When I was a kid and got out of line the first respone was to yell and then a smack if we didn't stop the behaivor. I don't want to do that but I don't know another way so alot of time I ignore the behavior or spend most of the day pleeding with them to behave."

Same feeling here!


For me, a SECOND generation gd'er, I don't find it so hard. I will tell you that my methods are not completely AP. But they do not involve spanking, punishing or bribing either.

They can make life alot saner.

First of all, I am not big on choices. If this is working with a child GREAT. But if its cauisng more problems, its prob an indication that your child isn't seeking choices.

So for me what's next is simply, a statement of what must be done and that I DO NOT LIKE what is going on (said in a calm but VERY serious voice) and expect better in the future."

Most importantly and feeling that once this has been done, there is NOTHING more that needs to happen.

Here is one example:

"It will be time to go in five minute. We must go to the grocery. There is no food in the house"

"OK five minutes are up. Let's go"

"Oh, why do we have to? I don't want to."

"Get in the car. We must go to the grocery store to get food."

"NO! Its not fair, why do I have to go. I don't need to eat. I can just have candy"

"Get in the car now. We must go. I DO NOT LIKE that you are keeping us waiting!" (this is said sternly but calmly, not yelling. It can feel really good to "dial down" here)

(Key here, *NO discussion about why you are going, that you need food that they just can't have candy etc...*.you already told them why you are going. they know. Do not get distracted. Keep your eye on the prize...everyone in the car.)

You must make yourself feel inside that you are indeed in control. That you are going to the store and that whatever they are saying or doing is just not relevant.

If they are little, pick them up as gently as possible and put them in the car.

If they are too big: WAIT. But your demeanor must be the one you have when waiting for a bus that is REALLY LATE.

Don't say anything ELSE, other than repeating like a mantra "The Car, now!" (Think about how this feels, how empowering it is to not feel like you must respond to everything being said)

No, discussion AT THIS TIME of how they need to be 'part of the team' or anything else.

Later, when you are back home you can talk about this if you wish. You can say that you expect better behavior in the future.

Thus, you have stated your expectations. You have let them know that you are not happy when they don't meet those expectations.

There is no need to punish.

You would be suprised at how effective this can be.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngieB*
The suggestion have been helpful, but no one has addressed the "what next?" If the re-direction, giving choice and such don't work, then what? That's where I'm at a loss. Someone made the point that we are all 1st generation GDers, which for me is very true. When I was a kid and got out of line the first respone was to yell and then a smack if we didn't stop the behaivor. I don't want to do that but I don't know another way so alot of time I ignore the behavior or spend most of the day pleeding with them to behave.

I'm also a second generation GD'er.

One of the great things about this board is that it offers different methods under the larger umbrella of Gentle Discipline to try. You have to do a lot of trial and error before you find something that works for your children.

Case in point: what Maya said. Everything that she wrote would not have worked for me. First, my child would never have said, "why do we have to go?". She would have had a full blown tantrum and screamed at the top of her lungs. If I had kept saying, "The car, now!" over and over then my DD would have continued her tantrum for longer than I could have held out because it would have enraged her to have me repeat. How do I know this? Because I have tried it! Now, everything that Maya said makes perfect sense and obviously works for her but it did not work for me.

What worked for me is to say (after the 5 minute warning), "Maddy, it's time to go. Who's the leader?" and she would automatically say, "ME!" and run to the car. How do I know this? Because it finally was the thing that worked after I tried many other things.

Nobody here will be able to offer you the perfect solution every single time but we can offer you enough respectful suggestions and hope that one of them will work for you. The key is creativity and that's what makes this board so great - you'll get suggestions that you never would have thought of on your own and something will work for you.

Good luck!


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngieB*
The suggestion have been helpful, but no one has addressed the "what next?" If the re-direction, giving choice and such don't work, then what?

I tried to explain this above, but I will try to be more specific.







If those aren't working (and a lot of times they don't, that's for sure!), then you need to make it happen...words need to be backed up with action...if your child is not picking up his/her toys and limited choices, "if/then", "let's pick up all the green ones first!" etc. are not working (and you have an immediate need for a clean floor/room), then you need to "make it happen." In this situation I would take her hand, cover it and the toy with my hand, and physically help her pick up the toys. After a few times of "helping" she will usually do the rest. Other times I have to help the whole time. She may kick and scream and cry - this does NOT mean I'm being punitive but that she's reacting to the boundary I'm set.

However, how YOU are acting has much to do with it being punitive or not...I know I've been punitive in enforcing gentle discipline b/c my attitude was one of, "She'd better learn this lesson and be sorry b/c I am MAD," kwim? It's hard not to want to "Teach 'em a lesson" and that they should be sorry and regretful. Our job is not to shame them but to teach them what is appropriate.

If my child is jumping on the couch our conversation would go something like this: "Kiri, you need to stop jumping on the couch. That can damage the couch, you may jump on the big pillow." If she keeps jumping: "Can you stop yourself from jumping or do you need mommy's help?" She usually stops herself. If not, I (ideally!) calmly get up and lift her off the couch, redirecting her to the pillow. She may kick and scream and throw herself in a heap on the floor or she may start jumping on the pillow or she may engage in something else.

The reason I am talking a lot about "kids reacting to boundaries" is b/c I used to think that with GD my kid would happily jump up and obey me.







They WILL react strongly sometimes (often?), this doesn't mean you're ineffective b/c they "not obeying you" or punitive...remember, teaching, teaching, teaching.

I also take into consideration hunger, sleepiness, etc. (i.e., if she is hungry or sleepy then undesireable behaviour is simply more likely, just like I have a hard time keeping calm when I'm overtired!).

I hope that helps somewhat. I know it is tough...I find if my child is not reacting to words then I need to "act." I do not need to be threatening or overbearing when I do this, but I do need to "make it happen."

Here is a link for "The 5-Steps," a non-punitive tool. There's other articles on this site that are helpful, too (just FYI, this is a Christian site, endorsing the use of Grace-Based Discipline, which is a non-punitive discipine style). 5 steps


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

My child likes being the leader, too.







After transition time/5 min and 1 min warning I get her to open the car door, decide what door she wants to go in, ask her to help carry stuff to the car, etc. I agree that creativity is key - it's tough sometimes, especially when you just want the to obey, LOL, but yeah, I've become extremely creative at getting her into the car.







If she wan't going after the above methods I would pick her up and carry her (realizing this would be impossible for an older child!). That's just what' worked here so far.







I have used maya's example when things are non-negotioable, too, and I don't want to argue.

I wonder how many GD "going to the car" scenarios we can come up with!!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
I'm also a second generation GD'er.

One of the great things about this board is that it offers different methods under the larger umbrella of Gentle Discipline to try. You have to do a lot of trial and error before you find something that works for your children.
Nobody here will be able to offer you the perfect solution every single time but we can offer you enough respectful suggestions and hope that one of them will work for you. The key is creativity and that's what makes this board so great - you'll get suggestions that you never would have thought of on your own and something will work for you.

Good luck!


ITA!

The thing to keep in mind is that GD is not just one thing.

It does not mean that you always have to make your child happy.

It means only (to me) that you don't seek to inflict punishment as a means of controlling behavior.


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## brandywine (Mar 25, 2004)

Hi all. I'm also not "getting it" when it comes to GD, particularly with my daughter, who is 5 and a half. When she chooses not to do something I have asked, there is simply *not a thing* I can do to 'fool' her into it. Offering choices doesn't work...she refuses to choose. She is not easily distracted or redirected, and trying to talk out the problem doesn't work either...she totally tunes me out. She often laughs, runs away, hides, throws things at me and so on if I try to talk to her (calmly) about why a certain thing needs to happen. If I approach her to physically make her do something, like pick up or put on a coat or put down the poor cat, she will hit or bite me, laughing all the while. Now that I am nine months pregnant, I'm not particularly willing to engage in a physicaly struggle with her. She also doesn't respond to yelling or spanking, by the way, so I'm not trying to to discredit GD as an inferior form of discipline.

My son, who is seven, doesn't choose to challenge as often, but his main weapon is whining. He will whine and stall till the sun sets, and the whining really ruins the atmosphere in the house for the day. Also, at his age/strength, I'm not sure how to physically enforce a boundary without hurting him....he can put up a pretty big fight.

I see people on the board saying that gentle discipline does not mean no discipline, but I also don't see alot of examples of how you (meaning you sucessful gd'ers) *make* your child do something they refuse to do.

Most of my problems seem to come when I want the kids to do something...like pick up their toys or art supplies (my daughter doesn't care if I take/throw them away, it doesn't matter to her). We've tried very simple chore charts with things like brushing their teeth, picking up toys and taking dirty laundry to the laundry room. Reward systems don't work...dd just doesn't give a hoot if she misses out on a reward and ds will whine/scream/cry for literally hours if he misses a reward he didn't earn....which makes it a punishment for me as well.

GD sounds nice, and I'd like for it to work, but as you can probably tell, we haven't had much sucess with it (or anything).


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
ITA!

The thing to keep in mind is that GD is not just one thing.

It does not mean that you always have to make your child happy.

It means only (to me) that you don't seek to inflict punishment as a means of controlling behavior.

For me the whole "does not mean you always have to make your child happy" part is key. It's fine with me if my child is disappointed or angry or whathaveyou...that's life. I think one of the cool things is they GET to feel and show those feelings without being told to "be quiet" or punished for being upset.
I think another part of actually getting results is being consistant. Say what you mean and mean what you say. This is so important! I;ve seen so many times a Mom say we're going now..then stop to talk to someone, so the kid goes back to playing, then the Mom is ticked off, when she is the one who stopped again KWIM? Or threaten and threaten and say no and say no and then NEVER follow through. How in the world does that parent expect thier child to take them seriously? I think that's how kids become "mommy deaf" their parents talk and talk and talk, but never do what they say- so why listen?
I also don't feel that ever situation is up for negotiation. I negotiate when I can ( sometimes my kids have good points for their arguements!) But if I need to say "no" to something, I MEAN IT. After the first explination of "why" I will not engage in arguing or tantrums about it.. they can be upset, that's fine.

As far as what next...It really depends on the situation. I am a believer in consequences (many here are not). I try to match the result with the action ( not just some arbitrary punishment that does not have relavance to the action)- For instance, the other morning my son wanted to play a game before school. I told him he could. I came down to tell them that we were leaving in 10 minutes, it's time to turn off the game now and get your school things together so you're ready by the time I come down. When I came down, he was still in front of the game,things not ready, shoes not on etc.. then threw a hissy because he couldn't find his shoes etc... ( he should have been doing that in those 10 minutes I gave him). So consequence is, if he wants to play a game in the morning before school, he must be totally dressed, including shoes, and his school things must be ready by the door BEFORE he turns on the game. To me that's no real hardship for either of us, and we both get what we want.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

I only have time for a really quick post right now, but this jumped out at me:

Quote:

Most of my problems seem to come when I want the kids to do something...like pick up their toys or art supplies (my daughter doesn't care if I take/throw them away, it doesn't matter to her).
Just wondering how far you go with this. If she doesn't care that you threw out her art supplies, then she has no more art supplies to make a mess with, no? Sometimes if clutter is a problem and the kids don't miss things when they're gone, it's a sign of too much stuff. I know this doesn't get to the heart of your problem, but it might be one small piece of the puzzle. Gotta run now!


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

just a quick suggestion re: whining- you may have already tried this! When my kids start whining about something, i refuse to 'understand' what it is they are saying until they can say it in a normal voice. Mostly now I just have to remind them to use their 'normal' voice, but if they get frustrated with my request, then I will try to model how I would like them to say it. I tell them that I'm happy to listen & try & help work out whatever the problem is, but I cannot stand being whinged at & so they must use their normal voice to talk to me. When they stop whinging, I will say 'Oooo that makes my ears feel _so_ much better', & then I will get down & really intently listen to their words. They still might not get what they want, but at least they know I've heard them out & we've talked it over..... It doesn't always end without conflict, but it's better than it used to be at our house, I think.... good luck!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brandywine*
M
Most of my problems seem to come when I want the kids to do something...like pick up their toys or art supplies (my daughter doesn't care if I take/throw them away, it doesn't matter to her). We've tried very simple chore charts with things like brushing their teeth, picking up toys and taking dirty laundry to the laundry room. Reward systems don't work...dd just doesn't give a hoot if she misses out on a reward and ds will whine/scream/cry for literally hours if he misses a reward he didn't earn....which makes it a punishment for me as well.

GD sounds nice, and I'd like for it to work, but as you can probably tell, we haven't had much sucess with it (or anything).


Here is what I have done:

"DD, pick up your toys"

"NO. I am too tired and its not that messy"

"You need to clean up. I will be back on five minutes I expect it to be done" (NO discussion about whether the room is or is not messy, or whether she it too tired)
Then, I exit.

About 90 percent of the time, what I ask is done if not, I might go clean it up myself and then say

"DD, I had to clean up your mess. I DID NOT LIKE THAT, it was your job (said sternly but very calmly) Next time I expect you to do it.

That is it. It really is very effective to have your "expectation" hanging over their head. They don't get away with anything.

Note that this expectation NEVER went away. They were not able to do the crime, by paying the time (that is to say, no punishment.)

This may not work with all kids, but it has worked with all three of mine. Most people never even try to discipline this way. It really does work much of the time.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
"DD, I had to clean up your mess. I DID NOT LIKE THAT, it was your job (said sternly but very calmly) Next time I expect you to do it.

I get what you're saying. And, as we've discovered, we all do things differently. I think it's important that our children know we're pleased/displeased etc. but there's a fine line between that and making them responsible for our feelings (i.e., I need to do that b/c it makes mommy happy). I try to put the focus more on that it's their responsibility (like you also mentioned). I just know I had a mother who withdrew when I was "bad" and that is very painful so I try to avoid making them responsible for my feelings...not saying you do that, I'm just sensitive to it, yk?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *canadiyank*
I get what you're saying. And, as we've discovered, we all do things differently. I think it's important that our children know we're pleased/displeased etc. but there's a fine line between that and making them responsible for our feelings (i.e., I need to do that b/c it makes mommy happy). I try to put the focus more on that it's their responsibility (like you also mentioned). I just know I had a mother who withdrew when I was "bad" and that is very painful so I try to avoid making them responsible for my feelings...not saying you do that, I'm just sensitive to it, yk?

I totally agree. I also think it's more helpful to say why the toys need to be cleaned up, other than it will make mommy unhappy for you not to do it.

My kid is only 3, but he understands reason. If the toys are all over (which they often are, as our house is small), I can tell him that I don't like it so messy, that we don't have enough room to play something else, or that the toys might get stepped on and might break or hurt our feet. Those aren't arbitrary rules he doesn't comprehend.

And if he says, "No. I don't want to help." (which is rare). I don't force him. What I try to do is model cheerfully picking up. If I'm feeling crabby and overwhelmed about it, I'll say that and tell him that I really feel like I need someone to help me.

He's 3. He doesn't really care if the house is cleaned up. :LOL That's my issue. But, because it's not been a big deal or a punishment, he doesn't see it as a big deal or as something negative.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
And if he says, "No. I don't want to help." (which is rare). I don't force him. What I try to do is model cheerfully picking up. If I'm feeling crabby and overwhelmed about it, I'll say that and tell him that I really feel like I need someone to help me.

He's 3. He doesn't really care if the house is cleaned up. :LOL That's my issue. But, because it's not been a big deal or a punishment, he doesn't see it as a big deal or as something negative.


Right on! It gets back to the point that kids have so many other goals and most aren't the same as ours. Especially at three!

I think it's always helpful to check our own issues so we know where we're coming from and what our triggers are, that way ahead of time we can decide whether an issue like picking up toys at three or four or seven or whatever is worth a battle because it's important or if it's somethng we should let go with our child because it's our own issue and has nothing to do with the big picture.

More often that not easier said than done.









I know we all have different ways of GDing, but I am leery of seeing forcing a child to pick up toys as gentle. Maybe showing them how to pick up a toy and drop it in a bucket, but to keep moving them from toy to toy using your hand on top of theirs to open and then close it around a toy, walk them over to the bucket and have them drop it until a space is cleaned up? I think maybe I'm not getting something (most likely), but how would you respond to your partner or husband coming home to hear you declare you just don't want to make dinner tonight, how about ordering out? and having him walk you over to the counter and use his hands on top of yours to help you chop carrots and onions? I'm not looking to start anything up but rather if people can help me see something I'm missing? Do kids ever have room to not want to do something, as we do, or does everything that's important to us have to be done? Maybe this veers from this topic too much and more into philosophy, but if anyone is up for discussing it I would love to.

Nicole.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Here's where I have to ask about the example Monkey's Mom gave when you have more than one child.

What if you do all that Monkey's Mom had done (up to the point where you do it yourself, which I won't do <_but I'll always help_>) and only one child wants to cooperate? In my house, this makes the cooperative child resentful and annoyed.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Oh and adding to the mix is a one year old that puts everything in her mouth, so things must be cleaned up periodically throughout the day.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Well, I'll know more come June when our 2nd is born....:LOL

But, we've had plently of playdates with little ones around, and that seems to be a nice "built-in" reason that the kids understand, "We can't leave these Hot Wheels out b/c Baby Kyle could choke on them." They love to help take care of the little kids, so they're happy to oblige.

The little ones try to help, too--putting the Duplos away for example.

The kids who get put into time-out or get scolded for not cleaning up are the first ones to try to get out of it. And I can't really blame them. I try to get out of things that I perceive as unpleasant, too.

Anyway, the goal, for me, is to keep things like cleaning up from being a power struggle or from being something *so* unpleasant that no one in their right mind would WANT to do it.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *canadiyank*
I get what you're saying. And, as we've discovered, we all do things differently. I think it's important that our children know we're pleased/displeased etc. but there's a fine line between that and making them responsible for our feelings (i.e., I need to do that b/c it makes mommy happy). I try to put the focus more on that it's their responsibility (like you also mentioned). I just know I had a mother who withdrew when I was "bad" and that is very painful so I try to avoid making them responsible for my feelings...not saying you do that, I'm just sensitive to it, yk?


You are right. We do things differently. Just like I would tell ANYONE (including DH or a co-worker) I will tell my kids that I do not like it when I have asked them to do something that is their responsiblity and I HAD TO DO IT INSTEAD. To me there is nothing wrong with saying I don't like having to do something that is their responsiblity!

I would not go on about, for example, "this makes me so unhappy" or anything like that.

I do not "withdraw" from them. I make my point and we all move on (unlike with my co-worker, whom I will prob remain annyoyed at! LOL).


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
But, we've had plently of playdates with little ones around, and that seems to be a nice "built-in" reason that the kids understand, "We can't leave these Hot Wheels out b/c Baby Kyle could choke on them." They love to help take care of the little kids, so they're happy to oblige.

The little ones try to help, too--putting the Duplos away for example.

The kids who get put into time-out or get scolded for not cleaning up are the first ones to try to get out of it. And I can't really blame them. I try to get out of things that I perceive as unpleasant, too.


With respect, Monkeys Mom, kids act differently in group settings and at play dates than they do in the _day to day_ routine. My kids are very kind to their sister and to other children that they preceive as younger than them. They are happy to oblige _sometimes_. Putting my kids in time-out or scolding them are not my go-to tools to try and deal with the situation when one wants to be co-operative and the other one doesn't.

Edited to add, I am not taking what you say personally Monkeys Mom







I'm just trying to find some advice that is applicable to my situation.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

Just like I would tell ANYONE living in my house(like DH) I will tell my kids that I do not like it when I have asked them to do something that is their responsiblity and I HAD TO DO IT INSTEAD. To me there is nothing wrong with saying I don't like having to do something that is their responsiblity!
Yeah, I don't quite see the problem that some others seem to. I encourage my kids to verbalize when they are angry or sad, whatever. And to verbalize it to the person who has offended them in some way, including me -- my dd has told me that it makes her sad when I talk harshly to her.







:

So I think it's completely appropriate to express disapproval of an *action* (or lack thereof), or to describe how that action (or lack) makes you feel. This is different than saying to the child (or anyone), "_You_ make me (angry, sad, happy, etc.)" I can say "It makes me angry when you do that." And later that day: "I love you so much! Even when you do things that make me angry, I still love you." This is completely consistant with how relationships work. I understand that ideally humans could reach a level of consciousness where other's actions have no effect on our emotions, but most folks I know aren't there yet -- certainly not me, and not _any_ children I've ever met! It's good for a child to know that even when he is very angry with his parents or sibling, that doesn't mean it's a forever feeling. And vice vera. The love underpins it all -- always.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

maya,

I know this isn't always doable, (when it comes to safety etc) but what about not doing something that's someone else's responsibility? If it's my son's responsibility to look after his toys, I am not going to do it for him - it's his responsibility. And if that means when he has friends over he can't access the playroom because it's a disaster and not safe for his friend's younger sister than they don't have access to it. If he wants to play in there with them he can clean it up first. But that's his space and his toys.

This comes up at work when people get mad that they always HAVE to do other people's dishes and it's not their responsibilty. And they're right - it's not - so why do they get stuck in having to be the ones who do it? So what if other people's dishes sit in the kitchen dirty? All that seems to happen is the ones doing the dishes out of an obligation that ins't theirs wind up always angry at it and resentful.

Again letting go of a responsibility that isn't yours is not always doable, but I think in most cases it is.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

luvmy2sweeties, we take the same approach in our home. I like to read No Matter What by Debi Golori (sp?) to my kids on rough days (in addition to telling my kids I love you no matter what you do or say)


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa*
maya,

I know this isn't always doable, (when it comes to safety etc) but what about not doing something that's someone else's responsibility? If it's my son's responsibility to look after his toys, I am not going to do it for him - it's his responsibility. And if that means when he has friends over he can't access the playroom because it's a disaster and not safe for his friend's younger sister than they don't have access to it. If he wants to play in there with them he can clean it up first. But that's his space and his toys.

This comes up at work when people get mad that they always HAVE to do other people's dishes and it's not their responsibilty. And they're right - it's not - so why do they get stuck in having to be the ones who do it? So what if other people's dishes sit in the kitchen dirty? All that seems to happen is the ones doing the dishes out of an obligation that ins't theirs wind up always angry at it and resentful.

Again letting go of a responsibility that isn't yours is not always doable, but I think in most cases it is.

Just like I wouldn't "punish" my clients by letting something that should be done "go" I won't "punish" someone else, like a small child who is a guest in our home, by not having a room that is safe for them.

I also want my home to look neat and clean. And I am not going to let this go.

I have to say, that for us, these methods are very effective. My kids don't want the feeling that they get when they have not met their responsiblities (and I think this "bad" feeling is a good thing. It makes us responsible people).

90 percent of the time, or more, my kids are meeting their responsibilties.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaOui*
With respect, Monkeys Mom, kids act differently in group settings and at play dates than they do in the _day to day_ routine. My kids are very kind to their sister and to other children that they preceive as younger than them. They are happy to oblige _sometimes_. Putting my kids in time-out or scolding them are not my go-to tools to try and deal with the situation when one wants to be co-operative and the other one doesn't.

Edited to add, I am not taking what you say personally Monkeys Mom







I'm just trying to find some advice that is applicable to my situation.

Just because kids act differently at playdates doesn't negate the method, kwim? If cleaning up is not perceived as a burden and people are looking out for each other, then cleaning up is just a natural part of the day. If it's about *getting* people to cooperate or feeling put-upon by doing the task, then you still might be conveying that the task is burdensome or unpleasant.

If you're at all interested, here's some reading that gave me a new perspective. http://sandradodd.com/chores


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

I get what you are saying Monkey's Mom, and there are some days that no matter how optimistic and understanding I am there is one child who cooperates and one that does not. What then? It's one thing if you have an adult that will then clean up or deal, but it's another when it's a four year old that is helping while his three year old brother sits back and watches. The natural consequence of my sons leaving everything out could be my dd choking to death. Also, my ds#2 is severly asthmatic and he is alergic to dust, so as much as I wish cleanliness in my house wasn't a priority, it has to be.

I checked out that link, but I don't really see anything that addresses when one sibling is almost always on board with helping clean up and the other is not. No matter how much positive reinforcement I use, my older ds still is irritated by the dynamic and I really don't blame him.

And as much as I'd like housework and clean up to always be done with a smile on my face, it can be rather challenging when you have three kids 4 and under. It's the ideal, but not the reality. It was the reality when I had two kids and we did not know that ds#2 was alergic to dust.

I'm seriuosly not trying to be snarky, I am just looking for some ideas that have worked with when one sibling wants to be helpful and the other does not.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I'm just going to throw out some ideas for dealing with some things that have been mentioned. They will not be for everyone I'm sure.

grocery shopping- My almost 5 year old dd really likes going places. We don't have a lot of outings so the grocery store is a treat for her.
If dd is acting up before we even go we will wait until she is in a better mood... or dd stays home with me and dh goes alone... or I leave dd with a babysitter- I do not take dd to the store when she is already having tantrums.
Dd really does know how to act in a store at this point. If dd starts acting up at the store she gets a warning and if she persists we pay for what is in the cart and leave. She has limits and we try to respect them. We might split our shopping list up over a few days so the shopping trips are quicker and less stressful.
We sometimes give dd a job to do at the store. She likes to help push the cart, hold the list, run the calculator or help find items and put them in the cart.
I don't think it would be wrong to make grocery shopping more fun.
Sometimes we play games like "I spy something that is red, do you see something that is red?..." or the same with letters/numbers. That has helped with long waits at the check out line.
We use the car shaped carts at the store sometimes- dd loves riding in them.
Maybe get a stop watch and see how fast you can get through each aisle or the store. Maybe figure out a prize if you beat a certain time or get to the end of your list.
My dd gets to pick out one treat at the store and it is generally at the end of the store or list. If we don't make it to that point or side of the store she doesn't get that treat. Everyone in our family gets to pick one treat item btw so it isn't just her.

wanting children to do things in a certain amount of time-
We set a small kitchen timer and don't nag. When the timer goes off dd knows time is up and it is time to move on to the new activity. We also use the timer when dh and I want some time alone so dd knows when the timer goes off we will be ready to do stuff with her again. It has cut down on interuptions & frustrations for all of us. I used it today when I was doing something and dd was bugging me to read a story to her. She accepts the timer where me just saying 10 minutes or in a minute doesn't work. When the timer went off I kept my word and stopped and read to her.

If my dd dd doesn't want to get her coat/shoes on when it is cold out or get in the car seat or something not negotiable she doesn't go. That may mean she stays home... maybe we all stay home. We try to give her options on most things but everyone in our family must wear a seat belt in the car- it has never been optional for any of us. We don't nag about it. We don't force her into it. We don't have much trouble with the car seat.

Diaper changing- my dd has refused to be changed. She was in pull ups. One day after trying everything I just said "It is your body... I'm not going to chase you, force you or nag you about this anymore- you can choose to use the potty, change your own pants or ask for help... I will help if you ask." It was becomming a power struggle. She went the whole (cold) day with stinky wet pants on. She had to forego sitting on my lap because of it. I really wanted to change her because it was sooo gross to me that it made my skin crawl but it wasn't bothering her. I asked a few times if she wanted help and she said no so I let it go. I asked her towards the end of the day if she was ready for me to help change her pants and she said yes. We did this one more day and since then she was a lot more cooperative about it. The world didn't end if she didn't get her pants changed as much as I would have liked. I wouldn't do it with a baby or very young toddler but if your blood pressure is rising and it is becomming a power struggle with an older toddler/preschooler maybe it is time to step back what you do and let them be more responsible.

Regarding pets- Since dd was a baby we have had a cat. If we saw her pulling fur or tail we would tell her firmly no and show her how to touch the cat. This went along with gentle touches we were teaching her to use with peaple. She was pretty good about it. Around the age 3 or 4 she re-visted picking on the cats. We went through the right way to touch again. When she persisted I had a discussion on how animals are to be treated and if she couldn't do that we would have to find the cats new homes where they would be safe. She was more gentle after that talk.

Hope you figure out what works with your kids.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Mamaoui, I can relate to one child cooperating with clean up while the other does not. It's tough. I have a 5.5 year old and a 3.5 year old, plus the 14 month old who goes along behind us undoing all the cleaning we've just done :LOL For a long time I badgered everyone about cleaning until it got done, but we were all cranky. I have since realized that consistent expectations are important, as is routine (roughly the same chores at the same time each day), but that who actually does what each time isn't worth struggling over, because although I can probably find a way to "force" them to do what I want now there will come a time when I can't-they'll be to old, too big, too clever, too stubborn. Instead there are certain things they are expected to do, and we often phrase it in terms of "it's your responsibility" or "I expect you to...". We make our expectations clear, and we arrange the environment so that each task is easy enough for them to accomplish on their own whenever possible. Then we talk a lot about how much we appreciate what they have done, about how great it is that we all work together. When one cleans up but the other doesn't, we'll simply say to the one who cleaned "I appreciate your help" or something like that and privately speak with the one who didn't help at an opportune time-something like "It really wasn't fair that C had to do it all by herself. I expect you to help next time." Or if I end up doing it myself "I did not like that I had to do your job by myself. Next time I expect you to do it, and if you need help I will help you but I do not want to do it all myself." So far it's working well and since everyone adjusted we haven't had major issues. Sure, sometimes one complains that the other didn't help, and I think that's all part of it and actually helpful-it's an opportunity to help the kids talk about it together ("You could tell G how it felt to have to do it all by yourself" and "G, C is really upset that she had to clean up without your help." and "How could you work it out next time?"). Sure it's a pain when I end up doing it myself in the end, or when only one child helps but for us it's working better than trying to find a way to _make_ each one do their part each time-it's less struggling and more communicating.

Two other things come to mind that have made clean up easier-1) storing away excess toys and organizing what's left out into bins that make clean up very easy and 2) telling the kids exactly what to clean up ("C you pick up the books and G you put away the car track").

Also, what if toys with small chokable parts are only used in one specific room or at a table your youngest can't reach? This is what we did for awhile when my youngest was born. Then clean up was easier because small parts were in one location, and supervision of the baby was easier because small parts were all in one place. Mostly one place anyway


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## brandywine (Mar 25, 2004)

I read the article and decided to give it a try, because even at nine months preg, my life would be better just doing everything myself than having to nag, threaten and coerce.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

"Also, what if toys with small chokable parts are only used in one specific room or at a table your youngest can't reach? This is what we did for awhile when my youngest was born. Then clean up was easier because small parts were in one location, and supervision of the baby was easier because small parts were all in one place. Mostly one place anyway "

We do that for the most part, but somehow small things end up around anyway
















We do the same things that you do, sledge. Ds#1 is consistantly expressing that he is upset that ds#2 rarely wants to help out. He's asking me "Why doesn't Ivan help?" "Why is it just me that helps?" It's really frustrating for him. I don't want to tell ds#1 "Because Ivan doesn't want to" but it's the truth.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Wow, there are lots of things going on in this thread and lots of different examples and requests. I feel compelled to ask the OP, if she is still here, did you get what you needed? Seems like things have gone pretty far astray since you started this and maybe it hasn't met your need?

I think we need to keep in mind that GD looks different in different families for a lot of very good reasons. GD, to me, means first and foremost respecting your children. And each child is unique and each family is unique. I have found that I've had to change lots of strategries as the children get older. What works at 2 does not work at 5 or 10. What worked when we had 1 child didn't work once we had 2. And so forth. Plus, our children have different temperments and so do we parents. It takes some time and experimentation to find things that work for each unique situation. Which is why its really important to be open to different suggestions here, but also to discard things that don't work for you!

I have also found that most GD solutions take a two-pronged approach. First, you have to deal with what is going on right then. After the immediate situation is over, then you have to circle back and figure out what caused it in the first place and can you avoid similar problems in the future. For example, with fridge kicking (the OP) -- there are two issues here. First is to stop the fridge kicking, which I probably wouldn't do with playing with the child because that does just reward negative behaviour -- After a request to stop, a reason (you could break your foot or the fridge), I would probably shoo the child outside to play where he couldn't hurt anything. But later, if I thought the root cause was lack of attention, then I would circle back once the child had started doing something more acceptible and join in the game or whatever I needed to do to solve the underlying issue. And I would probably make a point of monitoring my attention for the next few days to make sure things were balanced.

OK, now I've lost my own point...


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Oh, Mamaoui, I'm sorry my suggestions were no help. It's so frustrating sometimes trying to teach kids to help out. Sometimes I think it just takes a lot of time for what we teach to sink in. Really, my 3 year old helps in a meaningful way maybe half to 3/4 of the time. The rest of it he either says "I don't want to" or he gets sidetracked and starts playing with something he finds along the way or wanders aimlessly. It just happens because he's only 3, and I expect it to be this way for a while. I spend a fair amount of time explaining that to my 5 year old-"he's just learning" "he's just 3 so he doesn't understand the same way you do" "he'll be better at helping when he grows a little more."

Oh, disaster in the kitchen.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

MamaOui, can you tell your older child that Ivan doesn't want to help and that if he doesn't want to help either he doesn't have to? I'd feel crummy too if I didn't feel like I had a choice. I would definitely stress how much you appreciate his help, though!

But, overall, I'd make cleaning up a fun thing that people might want to do with mommy. Can you make up a special song about the people who are cleaning up--the child opting out might want to be included that way? Make it a game or race? I'm not much on rewards, but I might find a way to make there a prize--even a big goofy hug and kiss with chasing and tickling. I have just noticed such a shift in all of us, when we approach these sorts of chores with gladness instead of dread.

I would really downplay the other child's not helping, "Eh. Ivan just doesn't feel like picking up right now, I guess. Here let's sing a clean up song--what rhymes with 'messy?' Dressy? Plessy? Kalafragalitessy?"


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## Deja (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaednuSO*
There's a part of me (and don't get me wrong, I believe in this whole GD business) that can't help but see this as rewarding bad behaviour.

If you have one child and limitless patience I'm sure that playing with, nurturing, etc. your child every minute of every day - that'll work.

What about in circumstances in which you have more than one child? Either you end up neglecting the one to constantly be on the other, the other will get the message that evil = attention, good = ignored and become just as evil, etc.

That's the ONLY drawback I see in this equation - and a very strong argument the wooden spoon brigade can make. I can't really discuss this with anyone not on here because the answer will be "after a few smacks the child WILL listen and settle down - rather than kill yourselves and neglect your other children, and not instilling discipline which isn't good for your child anyway."

So long as a child knows that bad behaviour will be rewarded with attention (and sometimes, with multiple kids, you can't just drop everything for that one child who needs "redirection") why listen? I'm asking for an honest answer to this - it's not a challenge. There's something to this gentle discipline I'm not getting. I see the "gentle" part but not the "discipline". Seems to me to be more about discipline avoidance.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

sledge, your post was helpful. I feel like I'm on the right track and I know it will work out, but it's frustrating for my ds#1 right now.

monkey's mom, we do the game/race thing and positive reinforcement. I also let my kids know that part of taking out and playing with things is putting them away when they want to move on to the next thing.

Sorry to hijack the thread. I was hoping this example would be relevant to the OP and previous posters.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

MamaOui, in your case I would definitely consider giving a reward to someone who helps or taking away a privelege for those that don't.

I have a "cooperation chart" for my DD. It really doesn't promise any type of reward - the "reward" is being able to put a check mark in the box







. The chart has things like, "brushed teeth", "got dressed", "put clothes in hamper", "helped clean up", etc. She doesn't get a prize for doing things but she gets to check it off of her chart and that is a big deal to my DD.

I am not into rewards/punishments (as evidenced above) but I think that it is indeed not fair for one child to be consistenly helpful and the other not. I don't think it teaches either one of them a good lesson. I would consider a reward system in your case (although some will argue that it is not really GD, I think it can be) where one earns something for being cooperative (other than a check mark!).

Good luck!


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

mamaoui, maybe you could find some other way for ivan to be helpful? i like monkey's mom's suggestions about making it more fun. that might work with my dd1. i like sledge's suggestions, too.

i don't know if anybody has addressed this, but y'know sometimes we just have different levels of need for neatness. ivan and max might just not be on the same wavelength as far as neatness goes. some kids really do like to pick up and have their stuff neatly arranged and some don't :LOL. little felix ungers and oscar madisons (are y'all all too young to know who i'm talking about? imdb). maybe ivan would like to spray vinegar and water on the sliding glass door and wipe it clean or some other task you can think of. not sure exactly where i'm going with this, but i just wanted to put it out that we're not all the same in terms of things we like to do. dh usually does the dishes and laundry in our house, but i do the sweeping and the bathroom cleaning (when it gets done...







: ). maybe you can figure out what clean up tasks the individual kids like best?









hth


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