# One in Three American High Schoolers are dropping out!



## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I'm not a usual Oprah show watcher, but I heard what was coming on today and watched it.

Did you know that one in three high school students are dropping out today? One in two when you look at minorities. 75% of our prisons are populated by high school dropouts.

There are some great programs I learned about today on the show:

Bill Gates is funding and building new schools in needed areas that are using experimental practices with success.

Kevin Johnson is doing some remarkable things.

There's a pretty cool school in DC that is doing some things that would be controversial to say the least, but it's working. The start the day at 7am and end at 5pm and kids have 3 hours of homework. They have half days on Saturdays and summer school as well. The school is rocking with energy. The kids love it. Those are long days but if I were a kid from a rough place I'd rather spend my hours there in a fun learning environment than out on the streets. The parents have to commit to doing whatever it takes to get their kid into college. The teachers do parent conferences in the kid's homes. The kids get their teacher's cell numbers the first day of school. In many ways they are embracing the "it takes a village" idea in an area where it's really hard to be a parent, often alone. It's an optional school to 'at-risk' kids, but once in, the kids love it. They use rhythm and music to teach all subject - making up raps and all kinds of things to learn times tables, state capitols, etc. The kids are acing tests and eager to go to college.

I can't believe the state of our nation's schools. Abandoning them altogether means poor people are going to be locked into an endless cycle of generational poverty. I'd love to see some radical change starting with the bottom 5-10% of schools out there.

Prisons are partially populated by violent frustrated men - who often commit their crimes against women. Seeing to it that prisoners get an education that gives them another option in life should be in every prison. Adult high schools are going to be needed too, considering how many uneducated immigrants are taking residence here (I welcome them but we can't leave them in the slave class that we currently have them in).

There are so many holes in our current system that it's overwhelming to fix.

To me, some of the first things I'd fix, would be to make teacher's salaries set at a minimum livable wage of some kind. Some states start teachers pay in the low $20k range. I'm sorry - that's not livable. You can't attract talented and intelligent people with those pay scales. Maybe a few martyrs, but no teacher should have to choose between their profession and feeding and housing their family.

I'd like to see there be adequate buildings to house the number of students we have and see the needed repairs on the many dilapitated ones (like when schools close in the warm weather because they don't have air conditioning).

I don't want to take any funds away from any schools that are doing well or even ok, but I agree with those who have said that educational disparity is the racism of our time. Our schools haven't been as segregated as they are today since MLK's time.

I think scrapping the whole system of public education is a silly idea I've heard kicked around by people who don't understand that parents who don't know how to read won't be homeschooling their kids.

Your thoughts?


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## arlecchina (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:

Did you know that one in three high school students are dropping out today? One in two when you look at minorities.
so which is it? I dont mean to sound snarky, apologies. but who's the 1/3 if it's 1/2 if you count minorities, and arent minorities part of the 100% to begin with?


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arlecchina*
so which is it? I dont mean to sound snarky, apologies. but who's the 1/3 if it's 1/2 if you count minorities, and arent minorities part of the 100% to begin with?


Over all it's one in three dropping out (including all races). When you ONLY look at minorities, (taking caucasians out of the equation), it is one in two. Does that make sense?


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## zoe398 (Jul 8, 2005)

Sadly, we have a 51% graduation rate here in SC.









Thanks for the links!


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## arlecchina (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*
Over all it's one in three dropping out (including all races). When you ONLY look at minorities, (taking caucasians out of the equation), it is one in two. Does that make sense?

ah ha







I misunderstood the phrasing


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

I didn't see the show but, did they say what percent of the kids ended up getting a GED?

As far as schools go, I can relate to why a kid would want to just drop out. Public schooling is not the most enriching or worthwhile experience. I DO believe the system needs to be done away with. That doesn't mean everyone would be forced to homeschool. And I strongly disagree that the first priority is larger salaries for teacher. Money does not solve everything. Some things, yes, but not everything.

This has lots of info on the whole debate. Yes, I know Stossel's a putz but they describe successful alternatives. Personally, I'd love for the US to adopt a voucher system. It seems to be working well in other countries.


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## Jazzmin (Jun 29, 2006)

I worked with kids from Headstart that were in the bottom 5% povery wise. I was a case manager for a mental health organization that helped with kids who were on the verge of being expelled from PRESCHOOL.

These children were violent and out of control. Most had one parent in jail or exempt from their life. And the parent they did have usually didn't see anything wrong with their behavior. Many children ended up doing well after months of working with them everyday on their emotional and social development.

The sad thing is that over 50% of the Headstart population (the preschool we worked with) was identified to have "at risk" behavior and were reccomened to our program. 50% is an exteremely high percentage. To me it says that there is more to the issues than just unruly children.

You have to start with the parents and the community if you want to make school work. Sure, you can have these "alternative" schools that help a group of under privileged children, but you are only helping a small percentage. The real change has to come from the community. Parents have to understad that education is an asset. And foremost, they need to be supportive of their children.

The school issues are overwhelming, but definitely throwing money is not going to help. Real change has to start at the bottom. Changing the beliefes of the parents and caregivers and helping them help themselves will do more in my opinion than just fixing the shools.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22*
As far as schools go, I can relate to why a kid would want to just drop out. Public schooling is not the most enriching or worthwhile experience. I DO believe the system needs to be done away with. That doesn't mean everyone would be forced to homeschool. And I strongly disagree that the first priority is larger salaries for teacher. Money does not solve everything. Some things, yes, but not everything.

I think I agree with all that. Are we seriously suprised that kids are dropping out in such large numbers? I certainly am not. They are figuring out that the system mostly sucks.


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## REDBREAST (May 6, 2006)

While I agree that it does start with the parents, there needs to be resources, information and support for the parents of at risk kids. Also the cycle of poverty needs to end, once and for all!!!! Racism, classim, sexism, and most of all, capitalism must go down, so that these poor families of color can rise and do what is right.

There will never ever be liberation for the oppressed under the current system of power and in order for these families and communties to better the lives of their children, the system must go. All the things taht are being done now, like improving the schools, are just a band-aid for what is really going on!


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## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
I think I agree with all that. Are we seriously suprised that kids are dropping out in such large numbers? I certainly am not. They are figuring out that the system mostly sucks.










I realized just how done I was with high school at age 16, so I got on with my life. Scored in the 99th percentile for the GED, went on to college coursework, and still feel really excellent about my decisions eight years later. Even still, however, I face those who try to subtly shame me when they learn what path I've taken. It's an oftentimes difficult stigma to live with, but doing what was right for me has been worth it.


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jazzmin*
The school issues are overwhelming, but definitely throwing money is not going to help. Real change has to start at the bottom. Changing the beliefes of the parents and caregivers and helping them help themselves will do more in my opinion than just fixing the shools.


ITA.







It's a shame that our schools are such messes, ESPECIALLY considering the enormous amount of money being funneled into them.

A very good friend of mine believes-and I am beginning to agree-that there is a concerted effort to bankrupt the system in order to privatize it.


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

I dropped out. I had a very rough home life, tons of issues to deal with regarding my past sexual abuse, and just hated sitting in class, being bored. I passed all my classes still..
















: Might not be a popular idea, but I don't even see why we have high school anymore!

I showed up once a week or so to turn in my papers and pick up the work I missed. I did my 4 years. Then wasn't allowed my diploma because I had too many absences.

So, I just decided that I did my time and that I'd get my GED. Still don't have it yet, but it's on my to-do list. I'm just a real big procrastinator.









I don't see the graduation rates as being anything to be upset about.


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## Angel Kisses (Jun 8, 2006)

How sad! Thanks for the info...


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## KrystalC (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *secretresistance*








I realized just how done I was with high school at age 16, so I got on with my life. Scored in the 99th percentile for the GED, went on to college coursework, and still feel really excellent about my decisions eight years later. Even still, however, I face those who try to subtly shame me when they learn what path I've taken. It's an oftentimes difficult stigma to live with, but doing what was right for me has been worth it.

I'm with you there. I dropped out at the end of my junior year, but had originally planned to go back for my senior year and all I would have had to do extra was take an English class by correspondence in addition to my regular classes. Instead, I got my GED three months after dropping out and enrolled in college classes part-time. However, due to depression, financial circumstances, etc. I went one semester and then didn't go back for 6 years. I'm now back in college to get my bachelor's degree. Unfortunately, not all high school dropouts ever become quite so motivated, but it does happen.

Dropping out was in some ways one of the worst decisions I have ever made, but in others, it was one of the BEST decisions I have ever made. Had I not attended the University of Life for several years before going back to get my degree, I probably would have ended up as one of those kids who goes to college with no direction and no goals and either flunked out or dropped out of that too.

There are some students actually graduating from high school who are far worse off than I EVER was academically. I am in college classes with kids who have just graduated, but their capabilities are far behind what would have even been expected in MY high school. I'm torn with regard to the education system. I don't really have any solutions to propose, but I DO know something needs to be done to improve it. No Child Left Behind my a**!


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I would like you to also realize another issue about who drops out....boys make up the largest percentage of the drop out. Race does play a part in this but I think we need to pay attention to why boys are dropping out and looking beyond their skin color.

Many boys in poverty will quit or be force to quit to work for their family.

http://www.pcij.org/stories/2005/boys.html

Quote:

There are so many boys dropping out that only 57 of every 100 boys who entered first year end up with a high school diploma, compared to 71 girls.
I could quote a lot of articles and that one isn't 100% good but boys have hire illiteracy rates. They are physically and mentally behind girls when theya re 5-6 but are expected to perform the same ways. I think many people get frustrated and give up. I know my son was.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

(sorry long post







)

I realize that some people who drop out, go get their GED and then go on to college and live happy lives and make decent wages at their jobs. I don't think that's statistically the norm though... does anyone know what percentage of high school drop outs go on to later graduate from college?

I realize that the piece of paper won't contribute to life happiness necessarily, but statistically, your income will be significantly different based on it. I know some people are exceptions, but as a whole, it's not common for high school drop outs to do *really* well, when you look at who is making up the prison populations and what kinds of income are average for that sector of the population.

I know a lot of people want the system to crash and burn, but realistically, what does that mean? You want education to get so bad that the wealthy abandon the system and pay for private school until the government cares enough to start funding vouchers? What about the interim? What about all the kids who it's going to get worse for before it gets better? I know there are many underserved kids in our nation, but there are some schools and school districts out there doing great things.

I've heard another educator here on MDC discussing how our current teacher population is made up of the bottom 25% of college classes because all the better students get good jobs and the ones who couldn't "make it" take a 5th year to get an education endorsement and become teachers. My dh's school district that he teaches for is one of the top districts in the nation. One reason is that they have a pay scale that attracts teachers who are truly qualified to really educate kids. They have 2 teachers per class in a 'team teaching' program where special ed kids are integrated with gen. ed. students. They have a huge range of AP programs and also alternative programs for everything from engineering and robotics to auto mechanics to hotel management. Special ed kids there get an AMAZING amount of funding. He taught Autism/MR this summer in a class with 8 jr. high kids. He had 1 aide, plus some kids have a personal aide that rides the bus with them and goes to all their classes (paid for by the county). They have psychologists. They have parenting classes. They have a well organized and well paid administration. They have job fairs for kids looking for summer jobs.

I realize that class sizes are still a bit high (no more than 28 kids per class in most cases), but kids in his district do pretty well overall. They have intensive ESL programs, GT centers, a science and technology high school, and tons of programs doing everything from working with NASA, international field trips, and all kinds of things. They have a public TV station that keeps the public abreast on everything going on in the schools. They still need improvement in some ways, but many many kids do well in these schools.

What's the common denominator? Well - they're well funded. This county has it's share of poorer people, but it has some who are super wealthy. When any organization pays decently it's easier to attract people who aren't the ones who partied their way through college (it's still hard to afford housing here with my dh's salary but living uber-frugal, it's possible).

I don't think we should just grant a bunch of money to the Department of Education and hope that they'll figure out a way to make it better. I don't think it should necessarily be given to administrators to do with it as they will because somehow it seems to end up that they all drive BMW's in the end. I think teacher salaries, good buildings (replacing the many many in our nation that are crumbling or repairing what we can), access to technology, training for teachers that teaches them how to differentiate for their students, a diversity of programs of study for kids, more IEP's, healthier school lunches, and community redevelopment programs in areas where home life is likely to be a distraction from education - all ideas that cost money but are not "throwing money at the wind" as I think we've often done in the past, but I think those things would make progress in the right direction. (How's that for a ridiculous run-on?)

Fairfax County, VA spends around $13k per kid, but I'm certain it's much higher for the special ed kids (ex. those personal attendants for the autistic kids make $20/hr. to just sit with the kid all day). I'm sure many homeschoolers are crunching those numbers saying you spend a lot less per kid than that - but factor in your own years you donate and give that a rough $ estimate - your time is worth a lot! I know some private schools do it for less, but they don't have the extreme accommodations available that are available to kids with real needs for special services. I do think Fairfax County has problems, I'm just saying that if the nation's schools had the resources available that they do, far far fewer would be dropping out.

See the chart at the bottom of this article showing the 50 largest metropolitan areas in the country - Fairfax County has the highest graduation rate in the nation for large school districts. Detroit is listed at 27.1%. Fairfax County is 82.5%. It's not an issue of large schools here (over 160,000 students enrolled) - my dh's school has 3300 students. His school's graduation rate has been well over 92% for the past decade. He has poor and wealthy students. No student is going to go there and do poorly and not be evaluated for services to help them.

I think until education in America becomes enough of a financial priority to the population as a whole, it will never be a success. I don't think funding should be taken out of successful schools, but I do think that EVERY school system in America should have what Fairfax County has. Fairfax County has enough wealthy people paying taxes to make it possible. Most areas of our country don't and I think it's ridiculous the other things our government spends money on (Iraq, etc.) when so many kids (who would never have the privilege of being homeschooled or access to any private or charter school) languish without getting the education they need.

There are some great schools out there. I think they should be duplicated in troubled places. Those administrators who do great things should be hired to teach others what worked for them. The bottom line is, I think it needs a lot of money in SPECIFIC areas and to attract an influx of creative new people daring enough to do all the things that it takes to have kids be able to thrive in an educational environment. Not everyone is failing these days, and I think we need to look at who is succeeding and why.


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

Wow... does no one else see that this is a really classist, racist, judgmental, uninformed post?







:

Just because most criminals are high school dropouts doesn't mean that high school dropouts are criminals.







:


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *talk de jour*
Wow... does no one else see that this is a really classist, racist, judgmental, uninformed post?







:

Just because most criminals are high school dropouts doesn't mean that high school dropouts are criminals.







:

Well I didn't make that leap. I'm just saying that there is SOME correlation between the lack of ability to learn to cope otherwise in our society through education. 75% of the prison population are drop outs. They were underserved by the educational system. I think they deserve better! See my first post that addresses that a little and what some are doing to help.

When you have a system that produces a large population of people unable to function in society and bound into poverty by their status, crime is more likely. I would NEVER think that all drop outs are criminals! Just like I don't think people of any race, class, etc. are. I'm saying this is something we can DO something about and MUST! When you can't get a job in our country because you lack the basic skills - there are things that lead to lives of crime. You don't have options available to others. Feeling displaced in society and hopelessness can lead to crime. I also think that we need to address some of the things we are putting people in jail for (i.e. we need to rethink about the whole drug issue that is filling up our prisons). But do you really think there's no correlation between getting a crappy education that disempowers you from functioning in society, and ending up embracing a life of crime?


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*
But do you really think there's no correlation between getting a crappy education that disempowers you from functioning in society, and ending up embracing a life of crime?

No, I'd say that most criminals (REAL criminals, not just people who, say, do drugs or occasionally shoplift) have an antisocial/sociopathic streak, which leads to not being able to FUNCTION in the regimented school system. And if you can't function there... you can't function at a real job, you can't function within societal norms... you can't function within the law, KWIM?

I think the correlation is in the opposite direction from the one you propose.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *talk de jour*
No, I'd say that most criminals (REAL criminals, not just people who, say, do drugs or occasionally shoplift) have an antisocial/sociopathic streak, which leads to not being able to FUNCTION in the regimented school system. And if you can't function there... you can't function at a real job, you can't function within societal norms... you can't function within the law, KWIM?

I think the correlation is in the opposite direction from the one you propose.

So - I'm no criminology major but I do know we have one of the highest per capita rates of imprisonment in the world. I'm not sure what the most affective rehab is for occasional shop lifters. I doubt imprisonment is it. I don't know what the percentages are for which type of crime our prison population is composed of. So I freely admit being uninformed. I do know we're not the only country in the world that outlaws the drugs we do although it is obvious that some countries have had positive outcomes from legalization.

It does appear that people with a high school diploma are having an easier time staying OUT of prison. And I know plenty of high school grads who do drugs.

I do know that being a high school dropout puts you into a statistically much poorer segment of society. Poverty leads to hopelessness and hopelessness can lead to many sad and destructive behaviors, including crime.

I am in _no way_ blaming the drop outs. I am blaming the lame school systems out there for producing so many who are unable to read or perform basic functions that would give them more options than crime.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *talk de jour*
Wow... does no one else see that this is a really classist, racist, judgmental, uninformed post?







:

Just because most criminals are high school dropouts doesn't mean that high school dropouts are criminals.







:

I'm not seeing it. I don't believe that Sophmama is saying that because most criminals are high school dropouts that most high school dropouts are criminals. If I asserted that most rapists are men -- statistically true -- could you justifiably accuse me of sexism and bias and say that I was accusing most men of being rapists? Same idea here.

I don't think it's a stretch of credibility at all to say that if someone's a high school dropout, they're facing serious challenges in this society -- lower pay in lousier jobs being a chief challenge. Is it really "classist" to bring up this fact? Really?


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *talk de jour*
No, I'd say that most criminals (REAL criminals, not just people who, say, do drugs or occasionally shoplift) have an antisocial/sociopathic streak, which leads to not being able to FUNCTION in the regimented school system. And if you can't function there... you can't function at a real job, you can't function within societal norms... you can't function within the law, KWIM?

I think the correlation is in the opposite direction from the one you propose.

However, allow me to point out that many sociopaths (*obviously not all*) do quite well for themselves in school, particularly considering that the number of estimated sociopaths is about 4% of the population, or 1 out of 25. So, in an average class of 25 kids, one is a sociopath, statistically speaking. They do well in school because they're often charming and manipulative and have no ethical qualms about working the system or cheating. Sociopathy can be a real ticket to success -- or don't you watch Fox News?


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Sociopathy can be a real ticket to success -- or don't you watch Fox News?


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## KrystalC (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Sociopathy can be a real ticket to success -- or don't you watch Fox News?









Love it!









I would like to add that there are some major drawbacks to being a high school dropout. For example, I had to jump through extra hoops to get admitted to the university I currently attend, and it's really embarassing to have to state that I do not have a high school diploma on job applications, etc. I was incredibly fortunate to have always been able to find decent employment since leaving school, but others aren't as lucky and do not possess the abilities that have contributed to my success in the job market.

I don't think being a high school dropout necessarily leads to criminal behavior as many criminals become that way during school and dropping out just leads them to devote more time to it, perhaps becoming a career criminal rather than an occasional criminal. It seems to me that alot of the problems stem from a lack of resources, social support, aptitude, and an inability to adapt to society in a meaningful way. Unfortunately, most of those circumstances would be in place even with a high school diploma because these people were not taught to recognize their self-worth LONG before that. I think it's a combination of the home, schools, and society at large - not just education.


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*
I do know that being a high school dropout puts you into a statistically much poorer segment of society. Poverty leads to hopelessness and hopelessness can lead to many sad and destructive behaviors, including crime.

I am in _no way_ blaming the drop outs. I am blaming the lame school systems out there for producing so many who are unable to read or perform basic functions that would give them more options than crime.

You're assuming that most HS dropouts don't go on to get a GED, much less pursue any form of higher education.

I'm sure there are _plenty_ out there, but I have NEVER met a high school dropout who didn't get their GED, and many I know have at least a bit of college under their belt.

What I think would be far more telling would be a study of high school dropouts five years after they leave school - or even at least a reason for the dropouts. Remember, a LOT of people who drop out are teen mamas, or have health problems (physical AND mental), or simply decide that they're ready to move on. Some are from very poor families and their families cannot afford to feed them or house them without them working as well.

The number itself doesn't really mean much, IMO.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

It looks like according to this article, about 50% of dropouts eventually pursue a high school equivalencey. That would leave the population without a diploma/GED at approximately 15%. The article states that 20% of the population over 25 does not have a diploma/GED.

I would love to see which economic strata end up never getting that needed endorsement for the majority of decent paying jobs out there. I'm sure that there might be many factors that make it easier to return to school/ get a GED if you're from a wealthier or even middle class home. Poorer homes (statistically higher populations of minorities) may face more hurdles to returning than a middle class suburban kid. I think it's a lot easier for people in some circumstances to return than others. For some kids - it's almost a death sentence. It means life out on the streets. It means getting into a job that has low pay and having to support your kids/ family. I think some groups of people have an easier time finding the assistance they need and social support to climb out of the 'high school drop out' hole that they're in. I know that's my speculation, but if you look at groups of people that end up generation after generation, dropping out of school and living in abject poverty, I think you can see that dropping out doesn't necessarily mean you're going to go get your GED and enroll in college.


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*
It looks like according to this article, about 50% of dropouts eventually pursue a high school equivalencey. That would leave the population without a diploma/GED at approximately 15%. The article states that 20% of the population over 25 does not have a diploma/GED.

I would love to see which economic strata end up never getting that needed endorsement for the majority of decent paying jobs out there. I'm sure that there might be many factors that make it easier to return to school/ get a GED if you're from a wealthier or even middle class home. Poorer homes (statistically higher populations of minorities) may face more hurdles to returning than a middle class suburban kid. I think it's a lot easier for people in some circumstances to return than others. For some kids - it's almost a death sentence. It means life out on the streets. It means getting into a job that has low pay and having to support your kids/ family. I think some groups of people have an easier time finding the assistance they need and social support to climb out of the 'high school drop out' hole that they're in. I know that's my speculation, but if you look at groups of people that end up generation after generation, dropping out of school and living in abject poverty, I think you can see that dropping out doesn't necessarily mean you're going to go get your GED and enroll in college.

Then worry about the effects of abject poverty.

Not dropping out.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *talk de jour*
Then worry about the effects of abject poverty.

Not dropping out.

You don't think there's a correlation between a lack of education and continued poverty?


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## KrystalC (Aug 1, 2006)

To a certain extent. However, I'm fairly sure that many of the kids who drop out and never get a GED, etc. didn't get a very good education up to the time they DID drop out. The effects of that are far more detrimental than they would be for a kid who went to a decent school prior to dropping out.

At the time I dropped out, my family was considered middle class, but we were DIRT poor when I was growing up. My mother was devoted to educating us in the home in addition to sending us to school. As a result, I was reading at 4 years old without benefit of pre-school because we couldn't afford it. I was WAY ahead of my class in every subject, but that's not because of going to school. I learned a lot of it at home and combined that with what I learned in school later. Even now I set the curve in pretty much all of my college classes. While I may not be the norm in this regard, I think it goes to show that you can't make generalizations about people based on one factor: dropping out of school. My parents haven't paid a DIME for me to return to school. My husband and I have been paying my way though with the help of financial aid. He works as a janitor. I have been working as a secretary for the past three years, but have just quit my job so I could return to school full-time.

I think using the kid's background (family, SES, etc.) as a basis for comparison is somewhat important in this instance. Perhaps if the child had not started OUT in poverty before dropping out, the likelihood of going on to get a GED, college education, decent job, etc. would be increased - not the other way around. I think it's safe to say that many schools in low income areas do not provide the best learning environment for children, so those kids wouldn't have the same level of education out than a child who came from a higher socioeconomic background and a better school prior to dropping out. Even if they DID graduate high school, they probably wouldn't have had the same level of education strictly from school. I think a lot of that depends on parental involvement and the ability to learn at home combined with school learning.

It's all a matter of circumstances with a bit of "the chicken or the egg" thrown in. Does poverty create a lack of education or does a lack of education create poverty?


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KrystalC*
To a certain extent. However, I'm fairly sure that many of the kids who drop out and never get a GED, etc. didn't get a very good education up to the time they DID drop out. The effects of that are far more detrimental than they would be for a kid who went to a decent school prior to dropping out.

But here's the big equalizer: that jobs or college don't care what school you didn't get a degree from. They ask you if you got one at all, and if you did, you can move on. If you didn't, your application gets "circular filed."

Quote:

I think it goes to show that you can't make generalizations about people based on one factor: dropping out of school.
No, but plenty of jobs do, and whereas that's not _fair_, it tends to be _reality_.

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It's all a matter of circumstances with a bit of "the chicken or the egg" thrown in. Does poverty create a lack of education or does a lack of education create poverty?
I think they're mutually reinforcing, actually.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
No, but plenty of jobs do, and whereas that's not _fair_, it tends to be _reality_.

I think that's the issue that is getting avoided here. Just like I'm sure there are African Americans who will tell you they've never experienced prejudice in America, there are always people who have experiences that go against the statistical norm. We all know that some millionaires are high school dropouts. But that is not statistically the norm for drop outs. Statistically dropouts end up in a significantly lower income bracket than high school graduates and college graduates. Exceptions to the norm are valid, but they do not disprove that there is a norm. Employers still have criteria that they look for and unless you are ingenious enough to find ways to circumvent the system (good for you!), but few people find ways around the 'system' to make a decent income.

For the most part, the stories _I've_ heard of people climbing out of generational poverty, are through pro-athletics (rare) or through educational options. I know that's not an option for a lot of people and I think a better education should be available to all Americans.


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## KrystalC (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*
For the most part, the stories _I've_ heard of people climbing out of generational poverty, is through pro-athletics (rare) or through educational options. I know that's not an option for a lot of people and I think a better education should be available to all Americans.

I couldn't agree more. I realize that I am outside of the norm, but I can tell you from things I have seen/experienced in college, there are students graduating and going on to college who can barely read, write, or comprehend complex information. Those people are not being educated in the way they should be, regardless of the fact that they graduated from high school. Some students who were considered "honors" students in high school are finding themselves behind the curve in college. The fact remains that many schools are not teaching kids what they need to know to do well in college or even in the "real world", even for those who DO graduate. The ones who drop out are often left even further behind due to the lack of access to even mediocre education.

The system is getting worse, not better. Many schools are concentrating on retention rather than making sure that students are able to get the most out of their learning experiences. While I think retention is important, and I will certainly NEVER encourage my child to drop out of high school, I think increasing the quality of children's education is the key component in changing the system for the better. If children feel that what they are learning is valuable and will prove useful to them as they move on to college or the real world, they'll be more likely to be engaged in the learning process and stay in school as a result.

I dropped out due to a variety of personal issues - one of which was absolute boredom. I didn't feel that I was really learning anything valuable. For example, I went to Honors English and had already read all of the assigned literature and I certainly didn't want to read them again, but I HAD to. I didn't have any other options. I often wonder how many other students out there become disenfranchised for the same reasons.

Many students, whether or not they graduated from high school, find it difficult to attend college due to the cost. The federal government recently changed the income requirements to make it more difficult to get Federal Pell Grants in addition to lowering the overall award. At my school, the larger scholarships are awarded primarily to entering freshman who had time to be involved in volunteer work, student politics, etc. in high school. Returning students, such as myself, and/or students who had to work throughout high school with little time to engage in those sorts of activities have limited options in that regard. However, my university is more than happy to provide a free education to those fortunate enough to be star football players in high school - and some of them are *barely* able to meet the minimum GPA requirement to maintain their scholarships (and many wonder if that's due to professor leniency).


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

everyone's dropping out? cool! i wish i'd done that!


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## butterfly1976 (May 1, 2006)

I'm trying to remember how school was when I went there. I graduated back in the early 90s. I remember teachers who were boring as heck. Teachers who played favorites. The schools falling apart. Students who were pushed up in grades just because of who their parents were, or that they played sports really well. It seems like you had to worry more about how you looked, what you drove, what kind of house you lived in, who your friends were, instead of what you actually knew. So sad. I truly doubt anything has changed. I just heard on the news today that some of the schools in our state didn't measure up yet again. Of course, every year the teachers ask for more money, but kids are continually failing. They're graduating without knowing how to fill out a basic employment application. I used to be a boss before I came self-employed, and I would just shake my head when I saw how people (school-age kids) had no clue how to do basic things like that.

I watched a program (I think 20/20) about how kids in other countries are doing so much better than American kids. There was something on the news a few months back about how American kids couldn't find Iran or Iraq on a map. They couldn't find Louisiana on a map either even though Hurricane Katrina had been on the news for months on end!!!

I remember when I was in school, we had this kid who played basketball really good. You could tell he goofed off half the time in class, couldn't read or do math his level either. Either way, the school system continued to pass him up in grades. Last year, I read about him in the news. He had been arrested for kidnapping and assulting a man. Am I surprised? No, not at all.

For the record, I'm well aware that all drop-outs or slow learners are NOT criminals. I have many relatives who can read at a 5th grade level or less, and they have not been in trouble with the law.

Anyway, I just always feel so sad and angry of how our American schools are going. They want money, money, money. I think other countries are doing it right with their schooling. Such a shame we think we're too good to learn from another country. As usual, it's our children who suffer the consequences. Later on, society suffers as well...........


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

This is an interesting thread.

I have to say that I think that the fault lies primarily with the schools, and not with high schools but with *elementary* schools. Lowering standards, raising ages, and refusing to differentiate curricula for young children all lead to frustration and boredom later; If elementary schools were places that children enjoyed being, and where their need were met then they might have a prayer by the time they got to high school. Pouring money into the high school system strikes me as an attempt to put a plastic bandage on a gaping wound, rather than cauterizing and repairing the underlying blood vessels and tissues to actually *close* it.


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

When I was a Junior in College, I spent a semester studying in Switzerland. I like how the Swiss (and a lot of Europe) organizes their schooling. They're big into vocational training... even at the white collar level.

http://www.basel.ch/en/education/public-sector_schools

I think part of the problem with vocational schools in the US is that it has a negative connotation... at least it did, when my brother went to one. Yet it was the right decision for him. It was what he loved. He actually did very well... and stayed until graduation.

I also recently got my hair cut and colored by a woman who had done cosmetology votech. She was incredible.. .and was already working part-time in a salon by graduation. She found her passion and persued it. What's so wrong with that??


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *secretresistance*








I realized just how done I was with high school at age 16, so I got on with my life. Scored in the 99th percentile for the GED, went on to college coursework, and still feel really excellent about my decisions eight years later. Even still, however, I face those who try to subtly shame me when they learn what path I've taken. It's an oftentimes difficult stigma to live with, but doing what was right for me has been worth it.

I could have written the top half of your post, except that people really don't give me a hard time about having risen out (why do we say dropped?) of high school.


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## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
I could have written the top half of your post, except that people really don't give me a hard time about having risen out (why do we say dropped?) of high school.

I was searching for new terminology, and now you've provided it!


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## Lara vanAEsir (May 24, 2006)




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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

I like the term "risen out," but I don't think it applies to the majority of people who leave school. Most aren't doing it to move on to other opportunities, they're doing it to get away from the school system. I think that there's a quantifiable difference between "dropping out" and "rising out," and it doesn't make sense to me to apply the same terms to everyone who leaves school.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
I like the term "risen out," but I don't think it applies to the majority of people who leave school. Most aren't doing it to move on to other opportunities, they're doing it to get away from the school system. I think that there's a quantifiable difference between "dropping out" and "rising out," and it doesn't make sense to me to apply the same terms to everyone who leaves school.

I agree. All you have to do is look at the average annual salary differences between dropouts and graduates to know that for most people, it doesn't end up rosy. I think it's great that some have found an alternative path that helped them. And yes there are many many sucky schools in the US. But for most, even from a lame school - a diploma opens doors otherwise closed to them (statistically speaking).

I do applaud all who have found their own path of success though. Not everyone is as creative or knowledgeable as to how to do that.

My dh and I were discussing last night about how his students (special ed./ highest risk for dropping out and other troubles [statistically] later in life). They receive anywhere from 2 to 5 times the funding general education kids do (gen ed. kids get $13k each spent on them per year). I think it's worth it (one of the few counties in America that spends so much on students period). Students who are (statistically) at risk for prison later in life should get extra funds spent on them while in school. In my OP I believe I posted a link that discusses this. Certain schools in America are 'feeder' schools of high school dropouts to prisons. Those schools are typically poorly funded (yup!! Money! No one likes to hear that money could solve the problem). If you take it from the mouths of the students who attended those schools, they didn't learn anything there so they had to go out and learn to earn a living on the streets.

Like I said earlier, I don't think money should be "thrown" at the problem. But there are SPECIFIC things that would help a lot. Some schools have no air conditioning in hot climates. Mold issues. Crumbling buildings. Some schools have insufficient bathrooms. Minimal books. Not enough paper. Teachers have to work second jobs so they can survive so they can't focus on teaching. Horrible nutrition in the cafeteria. And after school there are a lot of home life (financially related) issues that make school really hard for some kids.

And we are hiring the bottom 25% of college classes because the vast majority of more intelligent/motivated people go get the higher paying jobs available to them. So the least qualified/ talented/ etc. people are teaching our kids. My dh had another teacher tell him that her dd's elementary school teacher didn't know who Vladimir Putin was. That's just pathetic. And I think that's what low salaries attract.

I know a lot of people want to abandon the system entirely, but in reality, that's mainly going to hurt the poorest kids the most.


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## SugarAndSun (Feb 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
I think I agree with all that. Are we seriously suprised that kids are dropping out in such large numbers? I certainly am not. They are figuring out that the system mostly sucks.

Hmmm... that's what it is... a system. It is made up of people though, who are fully capable of changing it.


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## mamaofthreecats (Aug 17, 2006)

about fifty percent of my class was at least a half credit short of graduating high school. i did thank goodness. most of them have gone on to get their GED's and are in college, and a couple of them have ended up in prison.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthreecats*
about fifty percent of my class was at least a half credit short of graduating high school. i did thank goodness. most of them have gone on to get their GED's and are in college, and a couple of them have ended up in prison.

I graduated from high school eleven years ago; I started out in a class of about 1,000 and ended up in a class of 563. While nobody was willing to say that the school's dropout rate was damn near 50% even then, that certainly seemed to be the reality of the situation.


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## RubyV (Feb 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
I graduated from high school eleven years ago; I started out in a class of about 1,000 and ended up in a class of 563. While nobody was willing to say that the school's dropout rate was damn near 50% even then, that certainly seemed to be the reality of the situation.









Similar situation in my high school (class of 94). 80% of the population were women. A large number drop out due to pregnancy. Many drop out between sophmore and junior year because that's when they turned 16, which is when you can legally leave school. Also, it's when many young women got married.

Same thing the following summer. Babies, Marriage, and work were the 3 reasons students dropped out at my high school. We had a very very high pregnancy rate.


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