# "they'll NEVER learn to sleep on their own..."



## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

so today we took dd to the doctor. she's been extra fussy lately and her eye has been goopy from a clogged tear duct, so i just wanted to make sure her ears, etc. looked okay and her eye wasn't infected. and she is fine, up to 14 lbs 11 oz now







:

anyway, i updated the doc on her napping trouble (she was basically not napping and extremely overtired), told him she's doing better, napping in the sling or in my lap after/while nursing (which for me feels like success). you would've thought i'd said i feed her poop for breakfast or something. he immediately started asking why she won't sleep "on her own."









i said, "she's 10 weeks old. i think she's still sorting stuff out. you know, the world being new to her and all."

so he goes on to ask if i ever let her cry herself to sleep in the bassinett. uh, no, i don't.

so he starts telling me about sleep training (like i'd never heard of it), how you have to do it or "they'll never learn to sleep on their own." so i was sitting there imagining dh bouncing a 10 year old on the exercise ball with the hairdryer running to try to put her to bed









i told the doctor politely that we won't be letting her cry, hoping he'd just drop it, and he got all huffy, "fine, that's your choice, angela, but i am telling you in 25 years of my practice and after raising 2 kids, there is no other way to teach them to sleep."

what is with this?







:

he also said to be consistent w/ letting them cry; don't soothe them too often or they get confused. his 20 y.o. "still has sleep issues" because he would sometimes pick her up after 2 minutes of crying instead of makng her wait.







:

and all this from a man who knows we co-sleep, doesn't push vax, and prescribed a homeopathic remedy for dd's eye (he's a d.o.). does everyone follow/buy into this CIO dogma? am i the only one who thinks "they'll never learn to sleep" is patently absurd? (i know i'm not







: ) surely dd will not be sleeping on the boppy w/ my boob in her mouth the night before her senior prom?!?!?


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## JenLiz (Sep 17, 2006)

yep, sounds like my pediatrician. At our 4 month visit he asked about sleep and I told him i'm still nursing her down...he said, OH, she'll need to learn to fall asleep and you should start "PRACTICING" letting her cry. (what??? Practicing what...I don't think so!) SOOOOO, please! i'd *LOVE* to hear people's success stories on how, when, etc. their dc "learned to fall asleep". Did your dc all of a sudden not need it anymore, or did you do any gentle teaching?

I currently have a 6 m/o dd who nurses to sleep and I hear it all the time..."you STILL are nursing her to sleep???!!". SO, PLEASE share your success stories with us so we know we're doing the right thing. TIA!


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Oh gag. I got this a lot when DS#1 was a baby. I pretty much ignored it all and told them he'd go to sleep on his own when he was ready. Now, if anyone gives me any crap, I just point at him (now 9 yrs old) and say "Well, he's not still nursing to sleep so we must be doing something right."

Ridiculous. You're doing fine.

In MY experience (and keep in mind each child is different) my kids have started falling asleep on their own at around 2.5- 3 yrs old. My toddler is able to lay down and listen to music, etc until he falls asleep, but will still wake up at night (between 1a-3a) and climb into bed with us. My oldest also did this until around age 4. (but we like it, so we don't mind!!)


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Good to know you'll have to be going off to college with her!! I hope there's enough room for you in the dorms.


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## luminesce (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone*
so i was sitting there imagining dh bouncing a 10 year old on the exercise ball with the hairdryer running to try to put her to bed









surely dd will not be sleeping on the boppy w/ my boob in her mouth the night before her senior prom?!?!?































Your post made me laugh out loud, which made DS wake up while nursing and then he started to smile at me laughing. So I guess some good came out of his ludicrous advice.









Hmm, maybe his daughter still has sleep issues because he let her CIO


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## mackysmama (Jan 11, 2005)

I'd get a new pediatrician. I don't care if they agree with me or not, if they parent they way I do or not, it's not a doctor's place to give parenting advice. Our pedi doesn't parent they way we do and probably disagrees with us on a lot of things. She gives her medical opinion and we are left to make a responsible decision.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *serenitii* 
Hmm, maybe his daughter still has sleep issues because he let her CIO









exactly what i was thinking at the time!! i hated going to bed till i met DH because i hated being alone. dreaded bedtime for YEARS. and come to find out, my parents CIO'd some with me.


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## ksera05 (Apr 14, 2006)

oh, that's ridiculous.







:


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mackysmama* 
I don't care if they agree with me or not, if they parent they way I do or not, it's not a doctor's place to give parenting advice.

i agree. but a lot of people (all too MANY) think sleep is medical, not a parenting issue. it has been wrongly medicalized (like so many things!). i think the party line goes something like, "if you don't teach your child to sleep on their own (read: CIO), you are teaching unhealthy sleep habits that rob them of the rest they need and endanger their long-term well-being." (hence the weissbluth title _healthy sleep habits, happy child_, implying if you don't teach these habits, your child will be unhappy.)

not saying this is right, obviously. i think it's wrong and insidious and damaging. and it guilts parents into doing something that often feels wrong to them because they think it is in the best interest of their child.

but i think the level to get at this problem on may be to re-frame children's sleep as a parenting issue (the way FF or BF has been framed) rather than a medical issue. ironically, FF/BF has a lot more medical ramifications than not sleep training does.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mackysmama* 
I'd get a new pediatrician. I don't care if they agree with me or not, if they parent they way I do or not, it's not a doctor's place to give parenting advice. Our pedi doesn't parent they way we do and probably disagrees with us on a lot of things. She gives her medical opinion and we are left to make a responsible decision.

Yes, I agree. Docs are for medical 'advice' and treatment. Medical advice does not need to be followed. As for a doc giving parenting advice, that's out of line. If you politely tell the doc you are not interested in receiving parenting advice from them, they should not give it. If they continue, they are not respecting your wishes and don't deserve to have you as a client of theirs.


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Ugh. I'd dump the doctor, that's for sure.

Some family members know that we cosleep with 8 mo old DS, and sometimes someone will comment, "If you don't start putting him to bed in his own room, he'll always want to sleep with you, even as a toddler." I just say, "So?" They act like it's some horrible thing for a child to want to sleep with Mama and Daddy.







:

Michele


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## alaskaberry (Dec 29, 2006)

I don't know why peds think they have the right to give parenting advice, period. If he tries to give you unwarranted "advice" again (because he probably thinks his opinion is the right one, which is why he got pissy about it, right?), maybe you should think about switching drs.


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## HeidiAnn67 (Jun 12, 2007)

That's sad that the dr not only thinks that way, but is pushing it on you.

In general I like my Ped, BUT I learned very quickly on subjects that didn't really matter if she knew what I was doing, I would lie.
Not that I advicate lying, but it just made Dr Visits a lot easier.


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## Liam's Mum (Jan 9, 2007)

My ped suggested letting DS CIO at 6 mos because he was a big baby so didn't "need" to nurse -- I humbly suggested that perhaps he needed to _because_ he was a big boy...

Anyway, I ignored her on this one. And you know what? DS no longer needs to be in his swing to sleep, or to be rocked/danced around by me to get to sleep. In fact as of a few months ago, he no longer even needs to nurse to sleep (I was nursing him to sleep at night until recently, but he goes to daycare and had no problem going to sleep on his own there from day one). We do still stay with him in his bed until he falls asleep, but considering all the other things that he's grown out of, I feel very confident one day he'll actually just go to bed by himself -- until then, we're enjoying the cuddle time.

And the other thing? He has positive associations with sleep. After stories, HE turns the light out and closes the door, lies down and says good night mommy, and drifts off. He sleeps through most nights now in his own room, but knows he is welcome in our bed whenever he needs us. And he is back to sleep in seconds in those cases. And this was a boy who was up several times a night, every night, for over 2 years. And in his first year, was a catnapper.

So to me, this is a success story. Maybe some would disagree, as he's almost 3. But in the grand scheme of his life, this has been a very short time, and I feel it's very normal that he's needed and wanted to be close to us at his age. And I feel it really has set the stage for him to be independent later on. Plus, I always say the proof is in the pudding: he is the happiest, healthiest kid. Must have been getting enough sleep _for him._

So yes, they do learn to go to sleep on their own. A 10 week old who likes to be close to mom is so not doomed to a life of "bad habits". I totally agree with the PP that the doc's daughter more than likely has issues to this date _because_ they tried to sleep train her!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I wouldn't even discuss such things with a Ped.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I wouldn't even discuss such things with a Ped.

point taken. i had called about the no napping b/c i was concerned--she went from napping hours a day to basically not at all. but i know now he is likely no help where sleep matters are at issue. for some reason, i thought a doc who practiced homeopathy and was suspicious of vax wouldn't be a fanatical CIO'er.

i can't be the only AP parent he has ever encountered, right?


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeidiAnn67* 
That's sad that the dr not only thinks that way, but is pushing it on you.

That's the part that always gets me--it's one thing to mention some alternative that they think is better, but it gets pretty creepy when they really push something on a parent.


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## sofiabugmom (Sep 23, 2003)

I brought this up with one of the docs in DD's ped office when DD was two months old. After 17 nearly sleepless nights, we discovered that she wouldn't sleep well unless she was on me, on her tummy and her head on my chest. My concern was the tummy sleeping, which the doc said was okay as long as she was on me, not on a non-moving mattress.

That's when she brought up the possibility of DD being in bed with us for the long haul if we didn't transition her to a crib or basinnette soon -- "she may still be in your bed when she's 4".







: Uh, okay ...

What's funny is that a few months later, I brought DD (in my Maya wrap) over to the hospital where she NICU-graduated to visit a friend who'd had a preemie. We ran into her attending NICU physician in the hall. Somehow our family's co-sleeping practice came up, and he said, "You know, we're one of the few cultures that doesn't do that ... I think it's great that's she's with you at night and she's obviously done well with it. Keep it up if it works!"

Go, doc!


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## momma-d (Feb 2, 2007)

sigh. If only we could change the AMA's lesson plans to include the benefits of co-sleeping, baby-wearing, extended bf'ing...etc...to dream, perchance...


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## Liam's Mum (Jan 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I wouldn't even discuss such things with a Ped.

Well, some, like mine, will ask "so how's he sleeping?" and before you think to say "like a baby, thanks!" you find yourself saying he's up x times, and she asks, is he up to nurse...









Fortunately mine took my "no thanks" to CIO fine and didn't tell me I had to do it, though her recommending it does make it pretty clear that she thinks it's the only way.


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I wouldn't even discuss such things with a Ped.

I wouldn't either.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

My response to my ped with DD1 was "She's sleeping fine," when that came up at our visits. I got tired of hearing about how i should let her cry. If the ped pushed I'd tell her I felt confident sleep was going fine and I'd rather discuss medical issues than parenting issues. She eventually quit asking about sleep.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Pediatricians haven't the slightest clue about parenting.


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## mamaveggie (Mar 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeidiAnn67* 
That's sad that the dr not only thinks that way, but is pushing it on you.

In general I like my Ped, BUT I learned very quickly on subjects that didn't really matter if she knew what I was doing, I would lie.
Not that I advicate lying, but it just made Dr Visits a lot easier.









This is where we are at. Thankfully, we are moving and I am looking for a new ped for dd. You should have seen the look on her face when I talked to her about EC. She told me that kids can't be potty trained before the age of 2. Whatever. Sorry that you are going through this too. Maybe you should look into a new ped, if he keeps bringing it up.


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

If a friend tells me to CIO, I just say "absolutely not," but leave it at that. Our second (and last) visit to the ped, she gave me bad breastfeeding advice, as well as scare-tactic'ed the pertussis vax, so I tuned her out. However, if a professional advice-giver were to suggest CIO, I would tell him or her that we do not spank our children, let them cry, or engage in any other physically or emotionally harmful behaviors. It leads to problems in the present, and the future, and it's wrong. I wouldn't pull punches; let the ped know you equate them. This person is doling out abusive advice to parents, whether he realizes it or not.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mackysmama* 
I'd get a new pediatrician. I don't care if they agree with me or not, if they parent they way I do or not, it's not a doctor's place to give parenting advice. Our pedi doesn't parent they way we do and probably disagrees with us on a lot of things. She gives her medical opinion and we are left to make a responsible decision.











Or, keep that one, and if he brings up the sleep issue again, simply say, "Well, that's a parenting issue, isn't it? I don't usually ask medical personnel for parenting advice, as they're two separate areas."

It makes me so angry, though, that people trot out as fact something that's clearly wrong. They're are tons of examples on this very board of children who go to their own beds and sleep on their own successfully when they're ready. And, if the number of closet co-sleepers around me is any indication, I'm willing to bet he has plenty of examples in his practice, as well. People just aren't fessing up because they don't want to hear it from him.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenLiz* 
yep, sounds like my pediatrician. At our 4 month visit he asked about sleep and I told him i'm still nursing her down...he said, OH, she'll need to learn to fall asleep and you should start "PRACTICING" letting her cry. (what??? Practicing what...I don't think so!) SOOOOO, please! i'd *LOVE* to hear people's success stories on how, when, etc. their dc "learned to fall asleep". Did your dc all of a sudden not need it anymore, or did you do any gentle teaching?

I currently have a 6 m/o dd who nurses to sleep and I hear it all the time..."you STILL are nursing her to sleep???!!". SO, PLEASE share your success stories with us so we know we're doing the right thing. TIA!

I have a co-sleep success story I guess.







Benji is 3, he sleeps alone in his own room ALL NIGHT and usually can't even sleep well if there is someone else in the room, but he did cosleep as a baby, actually needed to be rocked EVERY SINGLE TIME he went to sleep for months and months! Talk about a baby with sleep issues! We actually went on vacation a few weeks ago and because of the number of beds and whatnot, he had to cosleep with DH while I was in another room cosleeping with Isaac, my younger son. So anyway, we were like "OMG Benji probably won't like it, he probably will just stay up all night, it won't work, he doesn't like having anyone else in the bed!" Suprisingly it worked out fine, he slept all night, but the point is, we were SUPRISED by that. Especially one night we all 4 slept in a hotel room together in 2 different beds, I can't believe he actually slept all night with all those people in the same room! So point is, he has no problem sleeping alone now and his sleep habits are completely opposite what they were when he was a baby. And he never had any "sleep training."


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Co-sleep success story: My 6.5-year-old has slept with me from day one. When his dad and I divorced, he started doing one overnight a week with his dad (at about 3.5). His dad, fortunately, also co-slept with him until ds let him know that he was ready - a few months later - to start the night off in his room. A few months after that, he started staying in his room all night.

At my house, he still wanted to sleep with me. His bed became the keeping place for the clean laundry that I hadn't gotten around to folding. We talked about him re-locating a few times and he said when he was 7 he would be ready. Then, last week, I finally got around to folding the laundry and put it away. He was surprisingly thrilled about having his bed clear and said he wanted to sleep there that night. He did - all night. He's been there every night since and the past two nights, he hasn't even asked me to lay down with him first.

Kids do things when they're ready. A big part of a parent's job, IMO, is being patient. And, let's face it, it's not really natural to sleep alone.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Hmmm, that's odd, I must be hallucinating my two year old who is breastfed to sleep for naps and at night and sleeps 1 1/2 hours flat on her back in a dark room away from me for a nap, and sleeps from 8:30pm to about 6am solidly most nights.Oh, and she was slung to sleep when needed, whatever she needed until she didn't need it any more.

Jeeeze - even WEISSBLUTH says do anything that works until four months (when I throw his book out, but hey - four months!)

You are right, trust your instincts, trust yourself.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

some additional thoughts i had today about learning to sleep on your own:

what does this mean? don't many parents of older kids still read them a story, tuck them in, etc? i know mine did, for years and years. i was probably 10 before i went to bed without any tucking in or bedtime routine w/ my parents. doesn't this likely take as long as nursing or bouncing a baby?

so if it's ok to give your older child what he/she needs to sleep, why not your tiny baby?

also, i don't fall asleep on my own most nights. DH has to be in bed holding me, or i usually can't fall asleep









so again, why would i expect DD to do something at 10 weeks that i can't do very well myself at 27 years???


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

I can't imagine what inspired him to be so pushy about it, too... That is just crazy. I would've been horrified and probably said something like... "You let your poor, defenseless little baby scream alone in a crib? That is HORRIBLE!" I don't know if I could've helped myself!







:


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

I wouldn't discuss anything non-medical or non-health related with my ped. As far as I know he's not a parenting but a medical expert.

Sometimes I wonder how long ds will be a restless sleeper. He's going to be 4 in September and he tosses and turns a lot, and has difficulty falling asleep on his own. He's also afraid of sleeping alone, and he still sleeps with us. I do think it's him, though. I'll let you know how it goes with dd (due in August).


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## reducereuserecycle (Jan 16, 2007)

ugh! what an idiot!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

As a mom of a 6yo dd and 2yo ds who always nursed to sleep till they weaned and were never allowed to CIO I can tell you that both go to sleep now just fine on their own.


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## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

Our first ped (female) laughed at us and said our ds had us wrapped around his little finger and the only solution was to cio. So we switched, and our male doc. who also has kids is so approving of everything we do








It's so nice to feel safe/comfortable in the room when he's got his hands on either of my sons.


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## ryansma (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I wouldn't even discuss such things with a Ped.

Yep that! My ped doesn't ask me things like that. On one visit there was an intern or something like that asking me some questions, talking about starting cereal. I told him we were waiting to start solids until hopefully a year. He muckity mucked and I ignored him. When the dr came in the intern repeated (for the drs sake) what he had said and the doctor said "She knows what she's doing. We delayed solids til 9 months will all my kids. Anyway,..."
HA!


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