# Grandma is undermining our parenting



## thermo (Feb 19, 2012)

Grandma indulges my almost-4-year-old son beyond all reason. When he is with her, he is constantly plied with cookies and toys and screen time. She indulges his every whim. With her there are seemingly no boundaries, nothing educational, and no thought as to what might be good for him in terms of his long term growth. Everything is about satisfying anything he could hope for now. When she is not with him in person, my son Skypes with her. Most of those Skype sessions are comprised of grandma showing him the new toys she is amassing for him, while she takes down lists of his wants so that she can buy more.

She definitely loves him dearly. But this seems to be as much about buying his love than providing for him. She is competitive when it comes to his affection. She always asks where he gets toys that she does not recognize.

When my son spends any time with her, which is of course his favorite thing to do, he regresses in many ways. He becomes lazy. He demands to watch TV constantly. He demands junk food. His parents become of little interest to him.

Grandma is my son's corruptor - but my son is under 4 years old. This is not new of course. We have tried to reason with her. We try to make boundaries. But she can be evil. Around me, she pays lipservice. But when she is alone with my wife she becomes vicious and manipulative. She is narcissistic. She is mean. She makes my wife cry. She brings up my wife's dead father as some kind of bizarre psychological torture weapon. She is disrespectful.

I am torn about this. I want to provide as much love as possible to my son. And anyone that loves him should be showering that love on him. But this is love comes with some pretty nasty side-effects. Torn.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Why then, do you allow her access to your small child if she's so bad? You are the parent and you have control... be the parent!


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## thermo (Feb 19, 2012)

She has access to him because she is his grandmother and showers love on him. And because it would tear my wife apart to turn it into a war.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I used to use this phrase with a lot of success: "I am not grandma and you will not (fill in behavior here)." This one also works "I painted your legs on so you can go do it yourself. " I found that I react better when I focus on what my rules and expectations are instead of what my dd's grandma's aren't. It also helped my DD to be more aware of her behavior when I pointed out, in a mostly non-judgemental tone, the differences between my expectations and grandma's.


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## McGucks (Nov 27, 2010)

Some of this sounds way beyond typical "grandmother spoiling" and well into pathology.

Decide what is most important to you. Our boundaries relate to time (DS, who is almost 2, sees ILs about once a week), no t.v., and no junk food. We have not had them babysit, either...if we visit (they live close), it is a family visit. We do not use them so we can go out or party or whatever (not that those are "bad" things, of course, I am just explaining how we handle it all).

There are people in your situation who would also cease contact based on the hurtful behavior towards your wife. To truly respect the grandchild, this grandmother must also respect the children's parents.

Good luck. You've got your work cut out for you, as you know.


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## Angelorum (Aug 5, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thermo*
> 
> She has access to him because she is his grandmother and showers love on him. And because it would tear my wife apart to turn it into a war.


Showering someone with love does not mean giving them whatever they want regardless of whether it is good for them or not. That kind of love substitute is damaging to your son. Setting clear and firm boundaries is the way to manage this, and yes grandma will probably pitch a fit, but if you don't want a war, don't fight one. Tell her where the boundary is, and if she can't talk respectfully to you about it afterwards, hang up the phone/ leave or whatever.


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## bookwise (Jan 14, 2011)

one good boundary might be to say your son will have x amount of toys. if grandma gives any new ones, they will be donated to the nearest charity or grandson can decide which toys he will give away. that way, you are still in control.

also, i would definitely limit and supervise time with grandma. it wasn't clear to me - is this your mother or your wife's? either way, if she plays nicely when you're around, i would make it a point to be there ALL the time that grandson is with her. is that possible? and maybe limit skype as well? i take it grandma isn't far away, if she can visit often?

this doesn't sound like love to me - it's not a respectful one, that's for sure. not just to you parents but to your son as well. what happens when he's 16 or 17, will grandma buy him a car? let him drink and drive? have girls over at her house? i mean, it really sounds like there's NO limits. this is a damaging relationship and i would really really think about limiting it *dramatically*.

i understand your wife doesn't want a war, but it really sounds like grandma is leaving no choice.


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## thermo (Feb 19, 2012)

Thanks for all of your input. She is my wife's mother. I have been ready to get more resolute on a number of occasions, but my wife has asked me to let her handle it. Of course my wife ends up in tears and without any satisfactory progress when she does.

We live quite far from grandma. But we see her regularly... and of course there is the frequent Skyping.


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## lizvan (Feb 5, 2008)

Can you disable Skype? "it just stopped working" with a shrug and a comment that you will have to work on it. That would work for a 4 year old and a grandma. Dang computers! If he gets the gifts at grandma's, maybe he can choose two small ones to bring home and the rest will have to live at grandma's house. People change their tune when they are the ones waist deep in plastic crap. If she brings it you will have to be proactive about getting rid of stuff. If he gets a ton, he probably won't remember a lot of it later.

Supervise! My SIL used to actively go against what I wanted, so she was never left with my kids.

Good luck!


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## thermo (Feb 19, 2012)

Supervision is not great for me. Yes, while I'm around she somewhat behaves herself. But even while she is on her good behavior, she is very irritating when it comes to her interaction with my son. For example, she is constantly obsessing about how to get him to eat more and how to get him to eat and what to get him to eat. She chases him around and tries to put food in his mouth. All of that is unnecessary, of course. When he is with me, I make healthy food available and when he is hungry he eats it.

I don't want to intervene in the minutiae of her food obsessing.. but I also don't want to listen to it.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizvan*
> 
> Can you disable Skype? "it just stopped working" with a shrug and a comment that you will have to work on it. That would work for a 4 year old and a grandma. Dang computers! If he gets the gifts at grandma's, maybe he can choose two small ones to bring home and the rest will have to live at grandma's house. People change their tune when they are the ones waist deep in plastic crap. If she brings it you will have to be proactive about getting rid of stuff. If he gets a ton, he probably won't remember a lot of it later.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. "Skype died, so sorry." And leave the majority of crap at G-mas.

Your MIL had a chance to parent already. This is YOUR chance (and your wife's chance.) Don't let MIL mess it up.


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## fiddlefern (Nov 9, 2003)

My fil also has difficulty with boundaries. In terms of toys, if he brings a new toy into the house (unless it's Christmas or birthday), HE gets to go help my kids figure out which toy they will give to Goodwill in order to make room for the new toy. This has greatly stemmed the tide of crap. We have a small apartment and the weekly or more toys were out of control. When he brings over junky food, I say thank you, take it from him, put it up in the cupboard, and say "the kids will love to have this at dessert time- thanks for bringing it!" There was a period of time when he was not allowed to be with the kids unsupervised because we could not trust him with regards to sugar/ TV/ buying stuff, and also just general safety in terms of busy streets, etc. We never told him he wasn't allowed, we just didn't make plans where he was alone with the kids. Now that they're 7 and 5, they know our household rules and unfortunately I do get reports that THEY reminded HIM of the boundaries. I let him take them out now mostly because now he gets to reap what he sows in terms of their unruly conduct in his presence. He's embarrassed in public now! As a matter of fact, he has started asking me to come with him when he takes the kids out, because he sees that their behavior is so much better when I'm around. Go figure.

At least your mil's farther away and doesn't see the kids 3-4 times a week like my fil (he has good points too, I'm just pointing out his limitations because of your situation). Limit Skype. I have no problem with the direct and honest approach (fil isn't one to blow up though) but if you can't be direct, maybe you can follow pp advice to have Skype "break." Or blame your pediatrition. "We were told to limit screen time." Or suddenly be very busy. I agree with other posters that YOU are the parents. Also wanted to add that your mil seems abusive, and you need to encourage your wife to break the cycle of abuse for the sake of her son, if not for her own sake. As PP said, this is your chance- you and your wife have a responsibility not to let your mil mess things up for your kid.


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## fiddlefern (Nov 9, 2003)

Also wanted to add- in our household, dh isn't great at standing up to his dad. They have a pretty passive and conflict avoidant relationship. However, after years of me modeling the direct and unabashedly "hey, these are MY rules" approach, dh has gotten much better at putting his foot down too. It's probably very hard for your wife to stick up to her mom because she's got all that family baggage. What helped in my situation is that my husband and I agree about boundaries with fil, so we're not working at cross purposes.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thermo*
> 
> She has access to him because she is his grandmother and showers love on him. And because it would *tear my wife apart to turn it into a war*.


Get into marriage counseling now. Your entire marriage is resting on TNT and could explode. And your son's future happiness depends on it.

This is way beyond normal grandma stuff, and it isn't loving to either your son or your wife. Your wife has no idea how to deal with her mother, and your son won't either.


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## McGucks (Nov 27, 2010)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Get into marriage counseling now. Your entire marriage is resting on TNT and could explode. And your son's future happiness depends on it.
> 
> This is way beyond normal grandma stuff, and it isn't loving to either your son or your wife. Your wife has no idea how to deal with her mother, and your son won't either.


I agree. And if your wife won't go with you, go alone. This is truly serious stuff.


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

I agree. Your son deserves a happy mommy, not one upset by Grandma (and, whether it is apparent or not, he is surely feeling the effects of all of this - kids are affected by even that which we try to keep from them). As you have indicated, he will certainly not learn to respect you as a parent when your MIL so obviously does not.

I truly understand the desire to paint a rosy picture and include Grandma. I am constantly being pushed and pulled by this desire with my own parents. But you have to think - if someone who was not his Grandmother was acting this way, would you allow them in his life, to this degree? You are the gatekeeper to the influences in his life, especially at this age. Your son deserves safe and healthy limits. He deserves love that is selfless and constructive, not selfish and destructive. And so do you - and so does your wife!

As a child of parents who have often been abusive and manipulative, I can understand your wife's reluctance to blow the situation wide open. The tendency to think we have it under control (when you yourself said, she obviously does not, and is continually hurt instead) is common amongst children raised with parents who operate this way. As hard as it may be to face, I think you need to seek counseling for yourself and your wife. She is stuck in a hurtful pattern with her mother that she has probably been in all her life, and it takes alot of courage to break out of business as usual. But it is the only way to chart a new course for your family's future.

Your MIL's behavior is far beyond a mere annoyance or squabble over too many toys. It is toxic to your family in many ways. With my own parents, I try to limit their involvement to supervised visits, spaced a few weeks apart, with little or no contact in between. Toys, screen time, etc. are still a battle (even with a 10 month old!).

I know it sounds like a messed up Grandma in his life is still better than no Grandma, but her love for the child hardly sounds pure and respectful. It sounds downright manipulative and possessive. And your son doesn't need love like that! (in my own opinion, which I apologize if you find it out of line)


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## thermo (Feb 19, 2012)

Update: Grandma medicates our son without consulting us

We were traveling together - a number of family members. Our son had been car-sick on a very bumpy road a few days earlier. Without asking either of his parents - notwithstanding that we were there - grandma gave him anti-nausea medication in anticipation of a drive we were going to be taking. Our son ended up passing out and slept for the drive. Grandma was so proud of the wonderful work she had done.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

"You've now drugged our child, and therefore you won't see him again." I've had to do this kind of thing in my family. It can be done. It's very effective.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> "You've now drugged our child, and therefore you won't see him again." I've had to do this kind of thing in my family. It can be done. It's very effective.


I agree. I had to have a "no unsupervised visits" rule with one of my children's grandparents, too.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Your MIL has no respect for your boundaries and she's teaching your son that it's OK for her not to respect anyone's boundaries.

The reason your wife can't deal with her mother is because her mother has been doing this to her for all of her life. She probably doesn't have the skills.

You and your wife need counseling ASAP. Go yourself if your wife won't. It's gone beyond "she spoils him" to "she's potentially really dangerous". You're going to have to figure out how to prevent your MIL from being alone with him until he's old enough to fend for himself (16?) and to help your wife figure out how unsound this is. Until then, nothing will change.

Delete Skype from the computer. That is something you can control. Talk on the phone once a month.


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## Jen Muise (Mar 6, 2012)

I think the most important thing is for you and your wife to be on the same page. If she's used to her mom being overbearing and getting her own way, it is very possible that she is agreeing with you to get along as well, and is ambiguous or not sure of her own feelings on this one. You guys need to come up with boundaries you agree on, and a plan you can both get behind - and then a way to implement it.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

G-ma is acting like a third parent. The reason she thinks it's ok to act that way is because you have taught her that it is, in fact, ok to act that way. It's time for a serious "come to Jesus" talk.


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## thermo (Feb 19, 2012)

Update: I told my MIL that she cannot administer any medication to our son. She was not at all pleased about this. She ruminated about it for a day and then announced angrily that it is a matter of trust - either we trust her or we do not. We both then reiterated that she is not to administer medication. She never conceded anything. But the message from us was not ambiguous.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm having trouble writing a coherent response, OP. This topic hits all kinds of buttons for me.

As succinctly as possible...my grandmother was very similar to your MIL. My mom recognized that her mom was what would now be called "toxic" (I'm 43, and people didn't use the term during my childhood in the 70s), but didn't really understand how damaging it could be. My grandmother also had serious health issues, as did my grandfather, and my mom got sucked into being a "dutiful daughter" and primary caregiver to her parents. Grandma also tried to buy our love, and was also incredibly manipulative. She sometimes guilted us into eating junk food that we didn't even want. This was quite frequent for my older brother, because he had little interest in sweets. It was rare for me, because I have an over developed sweet tooth.

Ugh...I'm already losing the thread of what I was trying to say.

My grandmother died 23 years ago. My mom called me at my then-fiance's (he's now my ex-husband) to tell me. I got off the phone, and said, "thank God - the evil old bitch is dead". I wish I were kidding, but I'm not. That woman tried with everything in her power to force us to love her...and I ended up thankful that she'd died. In the two decades since then, I've come around to a different way of thinking about her, and I'm mostly just sad over such a pathetic, pitiful wasted life. One of my cousins still hates her with every fiber of her being. Grandma crocheted tablecloths for each of her grand-daughters - quite beautiful pieces of work, actually - and my cousin won't even take hers, as she wants nothing of our grandma in her home. Buying our love failed miserably. (I also remember grandma pulling one of her "well, if you don't want me around, maybe I should just kill myself" - after mom had managed to find 30 minutes to drop by and visit, in a very busy day. I was there, too, and responded with, "if you're going to do it, get on with it, and stop talking about it". I look back and cringe, because I can't believe those words even left my mouth, but that was how I felt. I was 15 or 16, and in the process of separating myself, emotionally, from her games. It was hard.)

Anyway - that's really about what this kind of behaviour will ultimately reap for your MIL. Now...for your son:

I'm morbidly obese, despite a very healthy attitude towards food in my family home. Why? Grandma. She went out of her way (although I'm sure she didn't see it that way) to make it impossible for me to have a normal, healthy relationship with food. I've had my ups and downs over the years, and was effectively over my issues for about a decade. But, they lurk. Since I lost my son (term stillbirth) four years ago, it's been pretty rough. I was trained to eat badly. I was trained to hide it. I was trained to see the foods I eat as a reflection of my feelings toward other people. I was trained to believe that food could just make my problems go away. I was trained to see food - particularly crap food - as a poker chip, in a game of emotional manipulation. (Did I mention that this same woman - who spent the first 10ish years of our lives guilting us into eating insane amounts* of junk food - then took it into her head to spend our teens using every opportunity that came her way to ensure that we knew we were fat? And, we weren't, at that point!) I've worked my way through most of the crap she left in my head. I've worked my way through the rage, and the hate. I don't drink or do drugs, anymore (can remember tossing off three consecutive shots of overproof rum, at the age of 17, immediately after having lunch with her at the mall). For me, the food issues have been the hardest part.

I don't think I have the right to discuss in any detail the issues my siblings and cousins had as a result of our grandma's upbringing. Suffice it to say, none of them miss her, either. Her death was a positive experience for our whole family. The aftermath of her games is still very evident in the life of one of my relatives. Another one chose a marriage to someone a lot like grandmother, and I honestly cringe at some of this person's views on children and parenting (eg. advocating hot sauce on the tongues of toddlers when they say "no"). The others have all been through a lot of emotional turmoil that's closely linked to grandma's manipulative crap, including some really skewed relationships. She damaged my sister's relationship with my mom. She damaged the relationships of my cousins with their mom and dad. My relationship with my mom remained pretty healthy, but only because the damage affected me differently than my other relatives.

There are no words for how much damage this woman could do to your son. The fact that even you are phrasing it as she "showers love on him" demonstrates just how messed up this is. You didn't post anything that indicates that your MIL shows love towards your son. She demonstrates possessiveness. She demonstrates a willingness to undermine his parents. She demonstrates a willingness to manipulate. She demonstrates a belief that love is something one buys with large quantities of consumer items. Those things aren't about love.

I'm sorry for the long ramble. This topic pushes every button I still have. And, if it helps you (or your wife, for that matter), my mom has said, many, many times, that if she could go back and redo our childhoods, the only change she would make is to cut off her mother. She believed that family is important, and that you can't "deprive" children of their grandparents and vice versa. At 68 years of age, that decision is her one real regret in life. She doesn't truly regret marrying her physically abusive first husband, because she did get out okay, and she has my brother. She doesn't regret marrying my alcoholic father (although she does regret staying as long as she did), because they did have a terrific first decade or so, and she has me and my sister. My mom just isn't the sort of person to waste a lot of time and energy on regrets, even for big mistakes. This - keeping us in contact with her mother - is her only one. I really hope that's not your wife, 30 or 40 years down the road.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thermo*
> 
> Update: I told my MIL that she cannot administer any medication to our son. She was not at all pleased about this. *She ruminated about it for a day and then announced angrily that it is a matter of trust - either we trust her or we do not.* We both then reiterated that she is not to administer medication. She never conceded anything. But the message from us was not ambiguous.


"We don't trust you. You've proven that we can't."

Games. Giving your child medication without your consent, then trying to twist it into "this is about trust" is just games.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I agree. If you can't trust her, you must not allow your son to be unsupervised in her care. Ever. Hire a sitter. Find a friend to watch him. Not her, not ever.


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## Love (Jan 17, 2012)

I havent read the responses but I will share how I feel. How my child is raised is very very important to me. From the time he was conceived Ive spent hundreds of hours researching everything I could and compiling how i wanted to raise him. I made these choices with his best interest in mind for the present and future.

My mother before he was born talked about giving him candy etc.. Etc... i had decided early on I would not be allowing him to have candy or fast food. When my mom told me that was her plan I told her no. She told me she would do it anyway. I put my foot down hard and I made it clear to everyone in his life that I had important instructions that HAD to be followed and that anyone who went against my wishes would NOT ever be left alone with him or allowed to babysit. Also that should that happen anyone arguing and making fits or placing him in a negative situation would not get to see him at all end of discussion there would be no arguments. I comunicated this in a fairly harsh way and said I meant serious business. My mother changed her tune very fast and now a days shes asks me for a list of what id like him to eat , what he can watch on tv etc... Etc... Originally when i laid it all down yes her feelings were hurt and she did not like it but she got over it fast because when i say something i mean it and she knew that i wouldnt hesitate for a second to do what i said.

So it would be my suggestion to lay down some cement ground rules. Tell her that you mean business there are no second chances and violating your rules result in her not getting to watch him. I feel although she will be upset about this she will come to see it your way because lets face it children are gifts from god and its such a joy to watch them that even if you are forced to do something someone else way youll give in because you love the baby! I think it is hard for a grandparent to come to terms that their children are raised and that their children now have the reins and the choices become theirs. I think it also makes them take a hard look at the choices they made as parents and feel bad because they know you have chosen to do something better.

Dont underestimate the poor habits she is instilling in your baby. I dont know about you but my baby is my rason for breathing the most important person in my life and i will do anything to protect him and raise him the best i know how. Other amily like my mom comes second. Im sure your wife feels similarly... Remind her that by letting her mom do these things her mother is coming first and shes not doing whats best for your son. Im sure its not on purpose but maybe a little reminder will help her see the bigger oicture about hows shes being manipulated and how ultimaely your son is going to be the one whos hurt from the choices.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

There is an outstanding book that will give you a great deal of insight, not only to the dynamics with your MIL, but also to your wife's inability to stand up to her.

Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward.

She has another book, Toxic Parents, that is also worth the read. Both books give specific, helpful advice for how to proceed.


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## thermo (Feb 19, 2012)

I thank you for all of your reflections and advice. It is very helpful. I will look up the book recommendations as well.

At this point it comes down to my wife's hesitation. I already had to decide that I was putting the relationship on the line when I told her she was not to give meds to our son. She tends to become very extreme - so I had to accept that it might mean she would take the low road and I would be putting my foot down in terms of how she would see our son. In the end, it was left with ambiguity.


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## expecting-joy (Sep 15, 2007)

Is there a cultural issue at play here? By that I mean are you and your wife from different cultures? Is your MIL from another country? What was your wife's childhood like? What is your MIL trying to make up for in her life by buying your son off with toys and sweets and food while poisoning your relationship with your wife and undermining your parenting? Was she a victim of war? Was there abuse or neglect in another generation?

I absolutely agree that you and your wife need to have a serious discussion about boundaries. You two are the parents. You need to decide on what grandma may and may not do. If grandma violates that, she loses access to your son. She must know that you are unwavering and unified and that she may be a grandparent, but not a parent to your child. She must respect you and your wife and your parenting decisions or she should not have access to your son. Period.

This is very unhealthy for your son and poisonous to your marriage. Please, please put an end to it.


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## thermo (Feb 19, 2012)

MIL is from another country... but my wife was born and raised in basically my culture. Not a victim of war AFAIK. My wife was the younger of 2 daughters and I think MIL and elder daughter were not very nice to my wife... but I'm guessing that had more to do with a degree of narcissism and not on any external factors. I think a big part of the problem is that my wife's sister had 2 children quite a few years before we had our son... and they did not successfully set boundaries. So my MIL had close to free reign with her other grandchildren. She has been conditioned to think that what she does is appropriate - regardless of what she does.

Prior to our having a son, I had a pretty good relationship with MIL. It was only after I saw what she was doing to him as an infant and toddler that a major issue evolved... and is evolving. I have chosen not to be around when they are together so I don't have to see it... But at this point that is changing as well.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *expecting-joy*
> 
> Is there a cultural issue at play here? By that I mean are you and your wife from different cultures? Is your MIL from another country? What was your wife's childhood like? What is your MIL trying to make up for in her life by buying your son off with toys and sweets and food while poisoning your relationship with your wife and undermining your parenting? Was she a victim of war? Was there abuse or neglect in another generation?
> 
> ...


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## [email protected] (Jan 5, 2010)

OP, culture matters greatly. From the culture I come from, cutting out grandparents is unheard of, unacceptable and will definitely end my very healthy very strong marriage. I do not have deal with your issue, but I read all the responses here and shook my head sadly coz if you didnt grow up in a different culture you wont get it. Things like " boundaries". , " parents comes first" , " he is your son" are foreign concepts....very sadly.

Also, in my very humble opinion, even thouh your wife was raised here, things like cultural mindsets can be deep and not be shaken off in one generation.

I really hope you find a solution to this.


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## MrsGregory (Dec 21, 2011)

I want to echo the idea that for some people, many people, even people here in the USA, the idea of ending a relationship with a parent or family member is seen as the moral equivalent of mass murder or about as plausible a solution as sprouting wings and flying to Mars for lunch.

OP, I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. Be confident in doing what is best for your wife and your son.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

You know...I was just thinking about the "third parent" thing and the medication. DH and I are a team. We have equal authority over our children. Neither one of us would give our child medication without checking with the other. That's not even about a lack of trust. It's about safety. What if you (OP) or your wife had already given your son some anti-nausea medication, and then she gave him an extra dose. This kind of thing can cause overdoses. So, I don't even think this is a "third parent" thing, honestly - it goes beyond that. (Obviously, if dh or I were away overnight or something, the other one would make a command decision on things like medication. I'm just talking in the day to day. DH wouldn't come home from work and give our kid Tylenol without checking, yk?)


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrsGregory*
> 
> I want to echo the idea that for some people, many people, even people here in the USA, the idea of ending a relationship with a parent or family member is seen as the moral equivalent of mass murder or about as plausible a solution as sprouting wings and flying to Mars for lunch.


I've cut out a couple of family members. One was a child molester. The other is mental ill, won't take medication, and sacred the crap out of my kids.

I think it is hard for most of us to cut out a family member. It is a BIG deal. It tore me apart.

But putting our own hang ups above doing what is RIGHT BEST and SAFE for us kids is just poor parenting.

To believe that protecting your child from harm is morally wrong means that your child will grow up and know that their safety was lower on your list in life than..... not making waves? tradition? whatever you want to call it.

Ultimately, we will each get to explain to our children why we made certain choices that we did. The really big ones. The ones that they will take into adulthood. And this grandmother is crazy enough that I suspect eventually both parents are going to have to speak up for choice.

"I let grandma mess with your head because I thought keeping you safe was the equivalent of mass murder"


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## MrsGregory (Dec 21, 2011)

Linda on the move*, I'm sorry for the decision you needed to make with regards to your own family. Of course having to end contact with a family member is upsetting for most people. If you re-read my post, I think you'll see that I am not encouraging the OP to do nothing; the line from my post not included in your quote is directly to our OP, urging him to take care of his wife and child. My message was simply to introduce to the conversation that, although I think we (of MDC) agree in general that grandmother should not be allowed unsupervised visits with the OP's child, cutting the grandmother out entirely may not be a solution for the OP, or for his partner. What may seem like the obvious choice may not be for all people. No where did I advocate that the OP allow grandmother to continue to "mess with [the child's] head".*


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thermo*
> 
> Prior to our having a son, I had a pretty good relationship with MIL. It was only after I saw what she was doing to him as an infant and toddler that a major issue evolved... and is evolving. *I have chosen not to be around when they are together so I don't have to see it*... But at this point that is changing as well.


Regarding the bolded, what a strange response to seeing someone interact with your child in a way that you don't like! I hope your "that is changing" comment means that you'll now be supervising their time together, regardless of your discomfort?


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrsGregory*
> 
> * I think we (of MDC) agree in general that grandmother should not be allowed unsupervised visits with the OP's child, cutting the grandmother out entirely may not be a solution for the OP, or for his partner. What may seem like the obvious choice may not be for all people. No where did I advocate that the OP allow grandmother to continue to "mess with [the child's] head".*


You compared cutting a dysfunctional family member out of one's life to mass murder.

Of course it's an option. It may not be an option they are willing to take, but it is an option. These are grown ups. They are free. They can do whatever they want. Whatever they do is a CHOICE.

They can choose to let continue grandma wreaking havoc, or they can set boundaries, or they can cut the crazy lady out. It's all just choices.

This notion that they have no choice is absurd. Some people don't own their personal power, but its still there. They just aren't using it. It's like having a really nice car, but taking the bus all the time because you fear what will happen if you get in the driver seat. We all can decide to get in the drivers seat of our life at any moment.


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Of course it's an option. *It may not be an option they are willing to take, but it is an option*. These are grown ups. They are free. They can do whatever they want. Whatever they do is a CHOICE.
> 
> ...


I think that this is a fair statement. I can understand that PPs who suggested it was "not an option" are trying to sympathize with the OP, especially as regards cultural expectations, etc. But bottom line - if you would not let a stranger treat your child this way, or put them in danger, then you shouldn't let Grandma!

To do less may be more comfortable. And I agree with Linda - if you do less, you should be prepared to explain why you prioritized the relationship with Grandma over the child's well-being and safety. It is fine if the OP feels the need to do that - for cultural or other reasons - but it is a choice that they should own. Another PP mentioned that to make a choice to cut out Grandma would end her marriage - so that is what she could say to her kid, "This would have literally ended our marriage, so that is why I put it above your well-being, because I felt that was worse in the long run, etc." or whatever her reasons were. But there are always reasons, always choices, always priorities to rank or shift. That is the messy business of being a parent.

And I am genuinely sorry the OP has to deal with this. I am very sorry Grandma is putting them in this position - but the focus should be on Grandma taking responsibility for this whole mess - for her actions, for causing this entire problem. The blame shouldn't rest on the shoulders of the OP for being a "bad person" for taking charge and putting limits on her, based on her bad behavior. I think fear of confrontation, fear of messy relationships/emotional fallout, and fear of being guilt-tripped can easily cause very well-meaning parents to back off from making the courageous decisions that are best for their child.


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

I would also like to add that this is a sliding scale - it is possible to make all Grandma time supervised (which it sounds like is starting to be the case), it is possible to cut back on Grandma time in general, it is possible to talk to Grandma and make reasonable expectations known and set new ground rules (this seems to be necessary, because she is used to having free reign with the other grandbabes). It is possible to limit visitation based on her behavior at each visit, and clear violations of the rules (probably a successful route, once she realizes you mean business, and there are certain things that will not be tolerated - or she will not see your son for x number of weeks, etc.). And then there is cutting her out entirely. These are all options.


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## MrsGregory (Dec 21, 2011)

*pickle18* - (As the PP mentioned in your post...) You're absolutely correct, I am making an effort to sympathize with our OP. If, 15 years ago, someone had walked up to me on the street and told me that cutting out family members who were abusive, violent and unhealthy was an option I would have been horrified, and probably backed away slowly. I would not have believed it. I would not have taken any action. If our OP is coming from a similar cultural place then perhaps recognizing that viewpoint and calling it out will help them hear and consider the advice to cut Grandma out.

*Linda on the move* - I absolutely do not compare cutting out family to members to mass murder. I state that "... [cutting out family members] is seen as the moral equivalent of mass murder...", which is a fair bit different. I think I understand why you're so upset by my post. I'm fully supportive of our OP taking action to protect their child from the Grandma in this scenario, and I say so, in my original post. I'm not sure where else you and I can go with this conversation. I'm comfortable with what I posted. I'm sorry my post was upsetting to you. I don't think it will be productive to continue our personal back and forth, but you're welcome to reach me by personal message.


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## ashlie06 (Sep 4, 2012)

I have this exact same problem, but worse I live with my mother! She undermines my parenting all the time! It's 7:45 and grandma wants to take my 2 year old son on an evening walk, I say okay just be back by 8:20. her response, "Don't be so stict if he's back later is that okay?" in other words shes saying they will be back later cuz either you head back to the house on time or not. My son did not have a nap today and he starts getting really cranky and whiney if I don't get him bathed and in bed by a certain time; of course she's not the one to deal with that so does she care? no! ehhh... I like how you said, "Everything is about satisfying anything he could hope for now." and how nothing eduactional or anything is done. Same here, she gives them popsicle after popsicle, she wont say no to him or do anything that will make him upset with her. She'll bribe him, distract him, or come get me to punish him, heaven forbid she actually be a parent figure to him which shows more love for the child because it shows they care about their well being, so basically she cares about herself and getting love from all her grandkids cuz she can't get it from her husband. More motivation to get out of their house ahh..


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