# please rethink using the term Blessingway to describe your baby shower*new info*



## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

with all due respect and kindess, i would like to ask anyone considering using the term Blessingway to describe their baby shower to reconsider this.
in my town, lots of women choose to use this term because they wish to create a more spiritual celebration for their baby shower. this is a wonderful idea, and i think it should be done more. however, we need to use a more appropriate term to describe this.
the Blessingway is a very important part of the Dine (Navajo) tribes traditions. use of this word to describe anything but the actual ceremonies performed by members of this tribe is very disrespectful.
i doubt anyone who has used this term has ever intended to be offensive or disrespctful, so please don't think i am saying that. i just want to encourage you to create your own traditions rather than appropriating other traditions that already belong to other people.
Mother Blessing
Baby Blessing
Way of Blessing
Blessing the Way
any combination of these would suffice to symbolize what your intentions are without taking something from someone else.we can be influenced, inspired etc. by traditions and cultures outside our own, but i think we have a responsibility to be respectful of the original tradition and culture that we are influenced and inspired by.

http://pregnancy.about.com/gi/dynami...%2F4-1pg2.html

scroll down to see the added footnote


*Quote:*

"1. In 2004, Native feminists wrote us to request that the term 'Blessingway' no longer be used to describe non-Navajo prenatal ceremonies such as the one described in this article. They explained that the term 'Blessingway' refers to a sacred spiritual ceremony performed by the Navajo people to celebrate rites of passage that occur throughout the entire life cycle, and not only the passage into motherhood. They suggested the term 'Mother Blessing' was a more appropriate term for a ceremony that was influenced, and respectful, of this tradition, but not practiced in accordance with the Navajo faith and culture. We completely agree.

Out of repect for the great history and importance of the Blessingway to Navajo people, many doulas, midwives and mothers now use the term 'Mother Blessing' to denote the celebration outlined in this article -- a practice we have also adopted."

*Edited on 11/11/07 to add new information:*
many people have said that their blessingway's are NOT based on the Dine's...well i have been looking around at all the many many many Blessingway website's and EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY one says that the "new blessingway" is based on the Dine's Blessingway.

http://www.mother-care.ca/blessing.htm http://www.preggiepeggy.com/blessingway.htm
http://www.mothering.com/articles/pr...blessings.html
http://www.naturaltouchdoula.com/blessingway.php
http://www.alternamoms.com/blessingway.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessingway
http://www.naturalbirthandbabycare.com/blessingway.html
http://thebirthsource.homestead.com/blessingway.html
http://www.doubletongued.org/index.p.../blessing_way/
http://www.timelessspirit.com/SEPT04/grace.shtml
http://www.castingcreationsbellycasts.com/gpage4.html
http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=667
it's not even arguable that the "new blessing ways" are not directly influenced from the Dine'
Blessing Way.

also, i have been communicating with a Dine Medicine Woman for the last week or so, and i have shared with her the link to this thread and also the many website's describing exactly what the "new blessingway" entails. she has given me permission to share this with you:


_Quote:_

I am a Dine' Medicine Woman who is infuriated by what I have heard! These women have NO idea what they are doing! The Blessing Way is an ancient Ritual that, yes is used to welcome children into the world, but by far, that is NOT it's only use, but just one of many of it's functions. I am not permitted to explain the many times we use Blessing way in ritual, but some of the rituals would be surprising for those not of the Dine'. Anyone not of the Dine' people should not be using our Sacred rituals bastardized in such a way for their own idealized mentality - it is more dangerous then they could possibly realize. We have certain "spiritual safeguards" on protecting our Old Ways & what is misused or misappropriated would have dire consequences for those who try to take what is sacred to us & is not of their people, but of the Dine'. To place this upon innocent babies is an anathema With much thanks, Firewolf


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## steph117 (Jul 12, 2007)

Interesting post, bellymama! I hadn't actually heard "blessingway" - but I certainly wouldn't use it now, having read this! Thanks for sharing the information - you're right, I'm sure many mamas just don't know of the Navajo tradition.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *steph117* 
Interesting post, bellymama! I hadn't actually heard "blessingway" - but I certainly wouldn't use it now, having read this! Thanks for sharing the information - you're right, I'm sure many mamas just don't know of the Navajo tradition.

absolutely! its a matter of just not realizing, i think.
the women i have talked about this with that live by me had no idea that the term had been adopted from the Dineh tradition. most of them were very willing to rethink the term they used to describe their baby shower.
i think that it is an awesome idea to go beyond the "baby shower" and make it a celebration/blessing for the mother and her unborn child...borrowing certain concepts and ideas are not bad in themselves...cultures are not static, and many things are the result of two different traditions melding together...
as a dancer, i do a lot of "world fusion" dancing...i borrow what i like from many styles of dance, ranging from bellydance, flamenco, indian classical, african etc etc...but i make sure i know about the individual dance form before i fuse it with something else...i make sure that i am not being disrespectful. you have to know about the original subject before you can respectfully create a new fusion.
so someone who learns about the Blessingway tradition and thinks "wow, this is an amazing way to view a womans life transformations, i would really like to incorporate this into my baby shower" isn't wrong to think that...its more that simply calling it a Blessingway is unnacceptable. because the only Blessingway there is, is the ACTUAL Blessingway done by the Dineh...the songs they sing, the people involved, the spiritual meaning all must be included for it to TRULY be a Blessingway.
otherwise it is a Baby or Mother Blessing. no less important to the person performing it or having it bestowed on them...just different.
just like you can't simply call pouring water on a baby's head a Catholic Baptism...you need the Catholic priest, the water blessed by the priest, the words that are said over the baby etc etc. a person could bless their baby with water and it would be no less meaninful or spiritual, it just WOULDN"T BE A CATHOLIC BAPTISM...so calling it that would be ridiculous.
i hope this makes sense.


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## pixiesmommy (Apr 19, 2007)

Thank you for this post. Things like this are very near and dear to my heart since my daughter has Native American heritage from her father's side of the family (although her bio father has never MET her.)

Respect for Native American peoples is a BIG BIG deal in my home and I struggle to stay informed of things like this so I am not inadvertently disrespectful and she grows up with some sense of heritage and respect for that part of her background.

I will certainly make it a point to correct this term now as I hear it.

Manda


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

I learn something new here every day. Thank you for posting.


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

Thank you for the reminder. It was because of outspoken MDC mamas like you that I learned to be more sensitive about blessingways, which ultimately led me to ask my co-hostess at a baby shower last summer to refer to our special ceremony as a _mother blessing_ and not a blessingway.


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## Irishcupcake (Jul 30, 2007)

Something else I didn't even know I didn't know! Thanks for the info...I've never heard the term, but I appreciate being made aware of the world around me!


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## supakitty (Mar 6, 2002)

Wow, I thought this subject had been covered extensively at MDC already.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ht=blessingway


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## blizzard_babe (Feb 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *supakitty* 
Wow, I thought this subject had been covered extensively at MDC already.

It certainly was (interesting thread... I'm only on page 2), but that's no reason not to post about it here, to a very specific audience.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blizzard_babe* 
It certainly was (interesting thread... I'm only on page 2), but that's no reason not to post about it here, to a very specific audience.

thanks. i know it has been said before, but new people come here everyday and i think this (and the many other topics that tend to repeat as new mothers go through the stages of being a mom) are worthy of being revisited time and time again.


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## rabrog (Dec 20, 2005)

****


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## MamaHen2J&J (May 23, 2007)

I've never heard of a baby shower being refered to as such, but I have to agree!


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## Dea (Sep 26, 2006)

well said and so important.
thank you.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

That's fascinating. I had no idea that the Navajo used English words to refer to their sacred rituals.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *supakitty* 
Wow, I thought this subject had been covered extensively at MDC already.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ht=blessingway

But what about guests or people who don't have enough posts to access TAO?


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Thank you for posting this.


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## Carlin (Oct 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
That's fascinating. I had no idea that the Navajo used English words to refer to their sacred rituals.











Sorry,

I totally agree that respect for our continent's first peoples is of utmost importance, and not a laughing matter...

but Ironica, that just cracked me up 'cause it's the first thing that crossed my mind too. You certainly chose an appropriate user name.

After a quick seach, it appears that Hózhójí is the correct word? Does anyone know if this is correct, and how it is pronounced?

The little bit of reading I've done on the subject is fascinating. It seems to be a much more far reaching ceremony than that which has been adapted as a mother blessing.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carlin* 
I totally agree that respect for our continents first peoples' is of utmost importance, and not a lauging matter...

but Ironica, that just cracked me up 'cause it's the first thing that crossed my mind too. You certainly chose an appropriate user name.

After a quick seach, it appears that Hózhójí is the correct word? Does anyone know if this is correct, and how it is pronounced?

Thanks for the compliment ;-).

I also agree that it's very important to be respectful of the rituals and traditions of all cultures (heck, I was very much raised that way... my father was a professional historian specializing in early California and Los Angeles). But seriously, would I offend Jews if I told my son he was law-abiding on his 13th birthday? Or Mexicans if I threw a "fifteen party" for my daughter? I sure hope not!

It seems like it would make some sense to say "Hey, did y'all who are using this word know what it comes from? Here's more information about the ritual... much bigger than having a baby!" and then let people decide if they want to make their "blessingway" more like the Navajo ritual that the term is based on, or if they want to change the name, or if they really don't care. But I don't get why someone else using the same words for what they're doing would be *offensive,* unless the activity itself is offensive in some way. Maybe the inclusion in my best friend's wedding of an adaptation of a Native American rite involving drinking from a two-mouthed goblet with an image of Cocopelis on it was offensive, too. Sad, since she was simply trying to *honor* her American heritage.


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## mama_nomad (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaHen2J&J* 
I've never heard of a baby shower being refered to as such, but I have to agree!

actually i don't think most people use blessingway/motherblessing and baby showers interchangably--one is mother-focused and celebratory/support-building and the other is baby-centered and material-driven.

that being said, i have been aware of this before and have been trying to transition form blessingway to mother-blessing...but i am not busting a nut over it so to speak







: this is only b/c i know (read somewhere) that navajos themselves have requested this and after how it went down for them, i AT LEAST owe them that, yes? i know some people think its not a huge deal...but i am not out to disrespect a group that gave us all a really great idea about how to honor a woman about to pass through into motherhood. ykwim? hope this thread doesn't get yucky like the last ones!


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## gingerbane (Jun 10, 2007)

It is very important to respect this about the Navajo culture and community but why do Navajo people not just use the original word from the Navajo language? Or do they, and non-Navajo people use "blessingway" because we don't know/can't pronounce the original word? It just seems odd to me. I mean we all say Bar Mitzvah and not it's English translation, "son of the commandment" and we say cinco de mayo not "5th of May" and Hannukah not "dedication" and on and on.

I'm a huge advocate of cultural appropriateness. But why use the non-cultural term for something and then ask everyone to keep it only in the culture? It doesn't make sense to me.


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## Dee-Groovy (Nov 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
That's fascinating. I had no idea that the Navajo used English words to refer to their sacred rituals.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Really. I tried.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carlin* 









Sorry,

I totally agree that respect for our continent's first peoples is of utmost importance, and not a laughing matter...

but Ironica, that just cracked me up 'cause it's the first thing that crossed my mind too. You certainly chose an appropriate user name.

After a quick seach, it appears that Hózhójí is the correct word? Does anyone know if this is correct, and how it is pronounced?

The little bit of reading I've done on the subject is fascinating. It seems to be a much more far reaching ceremony than that which has been adapted as a mother blessing.

yes thatis the term in the Dineh language...but the Dineh themselves use the term blessingway and have asked people not to use that exact term. so we should respect that.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gingerbane* 
It is very important to respect this about the Navajo culture and community but why do Navajo people not just use the original word from the Navajo language? Or do they, and non-Navajo people use "blessingway" because we don't know/can't pronounce the original word? It just seems odd to me. I mean we all say Bar Mitzvah and not it's English translation, "son of the commandment" and we say cinco de mayo not "5th of May" and Hannukah not "dedication" and on and on.

I'm a huge advocate of cultural appropriateness. But why use the non-cultural term for something and then ask everyone to keep it only in the culture? It doesn't make sense to me.


i only asked people to reconsider using it. the choice is up to you. i am not telling you to do it or not do it.
as a native, i have respect for the concept of not using native traditions because they are now trendy. the natives of this country were not so trendy in the past, and many of their traditions were stomped out, or if kept alive, done in secret...some ceremonies are still "illegal"...anyway, if its just a word to you, why worry about it. a group of people who this word means a lot to (both in their native tongue and in the language they were FORCED to take whether they like it or not) have asked if we could simply refrain from using it...i can't imagine why one would have an issue with this.
mother blessing, baby blessing, these are all similar and get the point across...so why not use them? the Blessingway of the Navajo involves more than just the mother transformation, it is an integral part of their worldview and spiritual beliefs.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Considering NA's are victims of genocide and forced assimilation and were virtually wiped off the face of the planet, I'm not surprised many of their languages are dying and they'd be using English words. And I don't see what's humorous about that, either. Actually, I find white people LAUGHING about it pretty offensive and disgusting.

Thank you for your post, bellymama.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_nomad* 
actually i don't think most people use blessingway/motherblessing and baby showers interchangably--one is mother-focused and celebratory/support-building and the other is baby-centered and material-driven.

that being said, i have been aware of this before and have been trying to transition form blessingway to mother-blessing...but i am not busting a nut over it so to speak







: this is only b/c i know (read somewhere) that navajos themselves have requested this and after how it went down for them, i AT LEAST owe them that, yes? i know some people think its not a huge deal...but i am not out to disrespect a group that gave us all a really great idea about how to honor a woman about to pass through into motherhood. ykwim? hope this thread doesn't get yucky like the last ones!

yeah, me too. i didn't know about the last one, but someone linked me too it and i was very sad that so many people were so blatantly disrespectful, almost on purpose, almost to be hurtful to people with native blood.
this might not seem important to you. it might seem funny. maybe you aren't up to date on the NA history. its not funny.
the navajo have been through some bad times they have suffered at the hands of people who didn't care what was important to them. they are asking us not to use this word. seems like the least people could do is just think about it rather than cracking jokes and scoffing at its importance.
just because you don't understand why it is important, doesn't mean it isn't important.
again, i merely asked people to reconsider...i wouldn't dream of telling anyone what to do. the choice is yours. if you are comfortable doing something that is hurting people, then that is your choice.


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## Ackray (Feb 11, 2004)

I don't understand why it would be so offensive to use the same wording when clearly it's not the same ritual. Lot's of things have the same words but mean different things.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
Considering NA's are victims of genocide and forced assimilation and were virtually wiped off the face of the planet, I'm not surprised many of their languages are dying and they'd be using English words. And I don't see what's humorous about that, either. Actually, I find white people LAUGHING about it pretty offensive and disgusting.

Thank you for your post, bellymama.

thank you. i am actually crying right now, because of the posts where people are cracking jokes, because of this exact reason. the lack of compassion, understanding or even WANTING to understand the feelings of natives on this subject just reminds me how our people are often forgotten and ignored in terms of their needs.
i really needed this post cherrybomb. thank you so much. i was really sitting here thinking that i couldn't believe that after all that has happened, people still can be so callous. i really appreciate your kindness.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ackray* 
I don't understand why it would be so offensive to use the same wording when clearly it's not the same ritual. Lot's of things have the same words but mean different things.

this is true. however the origin of the word blessingway to describe a baby shower IS from the navajo tradition. it just is that the people who use it simply picked what worked for them and discarded the rest. part of the blessingway of the DIneh is a "mother blessing". its just that it is so much more than this.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
Considering NA's are victims of genocide and forced assimilation and were virtually wiped off the face of the planet, I'm not surprised many of their languages are dying and they'd be using English words. And I don't see what's humorous about that, either. Actually, I find white people LAUGHING about it pretty offensive and disgusting.

Thank you for your post, bellymama.









: Excellent thread. There was one around here before and I tried to find it to refer someone to it, but I couldn't. I appreciate this new one, and the information is framed as gently as possible. Thank you.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 







: Excellent thread. There was one around here before and I tried to find it to refer someone to it, but I couldn't. I appreciate this new one, and the information is framed as gently as possible. Thank you.

thanks. i tried really hard to say it nicely. i never thought anyone used this word to be a jackass,yk? people just wanted a different word to describe the differences in their concept of a baby shower, which i think makes sense and i understand why they would want to.
i simply wanted to provide people with the facts so that they could choose a name that isn't already tied up with so much feeling and importance to a group of people who have already had so much taken from them.
i am not judging anyone. i just wanted to pass it on.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

I'm sorry you've been hurt by this thread bellymama.


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## kristenok18 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
Considering NA's are victims of genocide and forced assimilation and were virtually wiped off the face of the planet, I'm not surprised many of their languages are dying and they'd be using English words. And I don't see what's humorous about that, either. Actually, I find white people LAUGHING about it pretty offensive and disgusting.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 









I'm sorry you've been hurt by this thread bellymama.

thanks. i think i am maybe about to get my moon for the first time in almost 2 years, because i am so used to this kind of cruelty and lack of campassion and understanding that usually this doesn't upset me so much...


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
That's fascinating. I had no idea that the Navajo used English words to refer to their sacred rituals.

It is really common for peoples subjected to colonialism to have their language supressed as well. I'd like to suggest you read two poems, one called "My Ledders" by Louise Halfe, and one called "I lost My talk" by Rita Joe. Both speak to this subject a thousand times better than I ever could.
~It's incredibly sad, but my bet is that many Navajo do not speak their mother-tongue, and have, for generations, been using english or creole at least.

Christians use the world "communion" for eucharist (although I don't beleieve that's the word Jesus used), I think they'd be pretty annoyed if muslims began to use that word for a similar ritual they decided to adopt. But actually, that example is not really appropriate because right now christians are not a tiny minority in danger of being completely enveloped by a giant group surrounding them. I do find it a bit...astounding that it would be difficult to understand that it's easy for us to just not use a term that's sacred to another, small group of people, for our new-found practices. And on the flipside, it's devastating for them to have it appropriated.

In a small cultural group, it is really difficult to hold on to traditions and pass them down. When the youngsters become teenagers, they begin to move away from the home. They are suddenly completely enveloped by outside influences. If those influences include rituals they are accustomed to from home, _adapted_ to the prevailing outside culture, which do you think they are more likely to embrace?

Bellymama, I really appreciate you posting this and in the way that you have. I find your approach to be gentle, wise, and open. Thank you.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:

Bellymama, I really appreciate you posting this and in the way that you have. I find your approach to be gentle, wise, and open. Thank you.
thank you.


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## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

I also appreciate the way that bellymama has handled this topic. In the past, it has brought up many difficult feelings and I hope that we continue to speak about this in a loving, respectful way.

Cultural appropriation is a difficult topic.


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

Thank you for posting this, bellymama. My daughter has Native American roots through her father and preventing cultural appropriation is important to me. I know this topic has been discussed here a lot but it's worth bringing up again because we have new members who may be unaware of the implications of calling their ceremony a "Blessingway".


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

I think it would be awsome if there could be a sticky about this. That way it would be easy to point people towards it when they unkowingly use the term.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chanley* 
I also appreciate the way that bellymama has handled this topic. In the past, it has brought up many difficult feelings and I hope that we continue to speak about this in a loving, respectful way.

Cultural appropriation is a difficult topic.

thank you. i am glad people see that. i really didn't want to seem like i was criticizing anyone...this kind of thing is almost always just from lack of education and information, not malicious intent.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
yes thatis the term in the Dineh language...but the Dineh themselves use the term blessingway and have asked people not to use that exact term. so we should respect that.

Ok, lemme tell you where I'm coming from on this...

See this book? http://www.malkimuseum.org/Temalpakh.htm The people who wrote it were close friends and colleagues of my dad's. Actually, my father and Dr. Bean also co-authored _The Romero Expeditions_ together. Most years, we made the trek out to the reservation for Cathy Saubell's birthday celebration. I still have early memories of the giant barbecue pits where entire cows were cooked to perfection in the traditional way, and playing in irrigation ditches with native kids my age.

I have great-great-grandmothers on both sides of my family who were natives. It's unclear from family history what tribes they were from (and, as a historian, my dad tried REALLY hard to find out for sure), but that makes me about 1/8th native myself. Back in the days of Jim Crow laws, being that black would keep you out of college.

My father dedicated his life to documenting and teaching about the role of indios, mulatos, and mestizos in the founding of Los Angeles and much of California. He went to great effort to tear down eurocentric myths about how the Spanish Missionaries "built" California, and watched carefully to make sure my history classes in school were learning how the native people were enslaved by the missions.

So, yeah, I kinda get the whole concept of cultural sensitivity toward native peoples. What I *don't* get is why it's disrespectful to:

a) be inspired by a Native tradition in our own rituals
b) use a term which is a translation of the name of an original term.

Yes, I think it's good information to have. I would love to know more about the original ceremony/ies, too... that would be educational and interesting. But "blessing" is an English word, used primarily by Christians... and, heck, if I was Navajo (I probably am not; Cherokee and Chickasaw seem most likely, at least on one side), I think I'd be offended that people are dropping the real name in favor of a eurocentric translation. The reason Cathy and Lowell wrote Temalpakh was because the Cahuilla language was *dying*, and would be GONE in another generation if they hadn't documented it. There are concepts and philosophies and ideas that are incredibly difficult to translate from one language to another, so losing a language is a giant step toward losing a culture. It pains me to see that happen.

Frankly, I'm all for people dropping the term "blessingway," and it's not one I would EVER use, but that's because I don't believe in blessings ;-). So, selfishly, I hope that this thread makes people less likely to use it (though, since they'll probably still use something with "blessing" in it, won't help me much).

Now, would the Dineh people be as offended by it if someone attempted an authentic "blessingway" and used that term? What *exactly* is offensive... the term being used to describe a ritual that is significantly different than their own? Or the use of the term in total ignorance of its origin? Or is it just that non-Dineh dare use their (translated) word? It really feels like you're coming from the latter point, and I don't think that in any way forwards cultural tolerance or preservation of native cultures.


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## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

I am sure the Native American tribes never harmed anyone, never took over resources, never warred.

Call me pregnant and grumpy but from looking back over history, all people seem to have done these things. This being said, everything changes, as others have said, many words have many meanings, things evolve. I am sorry bad things have happened, they certianly are not special in that way in history, I have seen how the word Blessingway has changed and would respect the request if the native word was being used, but that is not the case. If it offends, I am sorry, but I think there are bigger issues.


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## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
simply picked what worked for them and discarded the rest.

Actually I thik for the most part that is great way to live. Not from just one culture or one book or one source. We are ALL ONE PEOPLE, no matter who or what culture we where born to. We should do what actually works.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Ok, lemme tell you where I'm coming from on this...

See this book? http://www.malkimuseum.org/Temalpakh.htm The people who wrote it were close friends and colleagues of my dad's. Actually, my father and Dr. Bean also co-authored _The Romero Expeditions_ together. Most years, we made the trek out to the reservation for Cathy Saubell's birthday celebration. I still have early memories of the giant barbecue pits where entire cows were cooked to perfection in the traditional way, and playing in irrigation ditches with native kids my age.

I have great-great-grandmothers on both sides of my family who were natives. It's unclear from family history what tribes they were from (and, as a historian, my dad tried REALLY hard to find out for sure), but that makes me about 1/8th native myself. Back in the days of Jim Crow laws, being that black would keep you out of college.

My father dedicated his life to documenting and teaching about the role of indios, mulatos, and mestizos in the founding of Los Angeles and much of California. He went to great effort to tear down eurocentric myths about how the Spanish Missionaries "built" California, and watched carefully to make sure my history classes in school were learning how the native people were enslaved by the missions.

So, yeah, I kinda get the whole concept of cultural sensitivity toward native peoples. What I *don't* get is why it's disrespectful to:

a) be inspired by a Native tradition in our own rituals
b) use a term which is a translation of the name of an original term.

Yes, I think it's good information to have. I would love to know more about the original ceremony/ies, too... that would be educational and interesting. But "blessing" is an English word, used primarily by Christians... and, heck, if I was Navajo (I probably am not; Cherokee and Chickasaw seem most likely, at least on one side), I think I'd be offended that people are dropping the real name in favor of a eurocentric translation. The reason Cathy and Lowell wrote Temalpakh was because the Cahuilla language was *dying*, and would be GONE in another generation if they hadn't documented it. There are concepts and philosophies and ideas that are incredibly difficult to translate from one language to another, so losing a language is a giant step toward losing a culture. It pains me to see that happen.

Frankly, I'm all for people dropping the term "blessingway," and it's not one I would EVER use, but that's because I don't believe in blessings ;-). So, selfishly, I hope that this thread makes people less likely to use it (though, since they'll probably still use something with "blessing" in it, won't help me much).

Now, would the Dineh people be as offended by it if someone attempted an authentic "blessingway" and used that term? What *exactly* is offensive... the term being used to describe a ritual that is significantly different than their own? Or the use of the term in total ignorance of its origin? Or is it just that non-Dineh dare use their (translated) word? It really feels like you're coming from the latter point, and I don't think that in any way forwards cultural tolerance or preservation of native cultures.

look, the dineh asked people not to use it. i am passing that on. so whatever your background is or isn't, really has nothing to do with that. i am sharing information. you can do with it what you like.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kontessa* 
I am sure the Native American tribes never harmed anyone, never took over resources, never warred.

Call me pregnant and grumpy but from looking back over history, all people seem to have done these things. This being said, everything changes, as others have said, many words have many meanings, things evolve. I am sorry bad things have happened, they certianly are not special in that way in history, I have seen how the word Blessingway has changed and would respect the request if the native word was being used, but that is not the case. If it offends, I am sorry, but I think there are bigger issues.

this is true. but the scale to which it was done to natives is pretty huge. and just because it happened to others doesn't make it less horrible that it happened to natives.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
look, the dineh asked people not to use it. i am passing that on. so whatever your background is or isn't, really has nothing to do with that. i am sharing information. you can do with it what you like.

Ok, well, you're the messenger... I get that. You chose to carry the message, though, which makes me think you believe it's an important and useful one.

It's interesting, though; I can't turn up anything else on this, except one mention of Dineh peoples who do *not* find the use of Blessingway for something that is really just a renamed baby shower terribly offensive. (That is an aside in a discussion about something totally other on this page: http://www.bluecorncomics.com/skinwlkr.htm)

Now, if it's offensive to use the term for things that are not actually related to the native ceremony, then this place must get a ton of hate mail from the community: http://www.blessingwaybc.org/index.html .

But I do really wonder where this is coming from, since I can't find any reference to it on any page about Navajo/Dineh beliefs, rituals, whatever. As I said before, I think it's really great to educate people on the origin of terms they may be using without any knowledge... but calling it "offensive" just seems... counterproductive.


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## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
this is true. but the scale to which it was done to natives is pretty huge. and just because it happened to others doesn't make it less horrible that it happened to natives.


Your not kidding, it was horrible, it horrible when ever it is doen but it not something rare. Look at Palistine right now..... -shiver- Heck, look at what we are doing even now in Iraq.

My point is, PEOPLE have done horrible things, no one is clean, no one people have excaped being victums of some kind.

While I respect cultures and keeping traditions, I find it sad not more is being done to see PEOPLE as a whole and not different groups.

We need to share more I think, that means wonderful words and traditions, not further put things in the way.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kontessa* 
My point is, PEOPLE have done horrible things, no one is clean, no one people have excaped being victums of some kind.

While I respect cultures and keeping traditions, I find it sad not more is being done to see PEOPLE as a whole and not different groups.

We need to share more I think, that means wonderful words and traditions, not further put things in the way.

Well said. I think this is my main point; I get that people find it dismaying when folks use the term "blessingway" with no awareness of its origin, but I feel the solution to that is education about the Dineh tradition, not a demand that they abandon the word.

OTOH, I'm not a big fan of political correctness in general ;-). If the KKK started using the term "African-American" tomorrow, it wouldn't suddenly make them think differently... it would just mean we'd have to find yet *another* term to show we're enlightened, right-thinking individuals. (Besides which, I'd be a bit offended if someone called me European-American, even though my ancestors left Europe of their own will, and didn't have their old world culture forcibly beaten out of them.... so I've never fathomed why African-American wasn't an offensive term. But *shrug* I still use it when it's expected.)


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

It's about respect. I don't understand why that's so damned hard to understand, except that maybe most people in the US don't give a rat's ass about respect unless they are seeking it out. Giving it seems to cause major pain and inconvenience.

Bellymama, I'm sorry. You made a simple, thoughtful request that anyone who gave half a brain cell's worth of effort should understand. Thank you for trying.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
(Besides which, I'd be a bit offended if someone called me European-American, even though my ancestors left Europe of their own will, and didn't have their old world culture forcibly beaten out of them.... so I've never fathomed why African-American wasn't an offensive term. But *shrug* I still use it when it's expected.)

I prefer to be called a non-native.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
OTOH, I'm not a big fan of political correctness in general ;-). If the KKK started using the term "African-American" tomorrow, it wouldn't suddenly make them think differently... it would just mean we'd have to find yet *another* term to show we're enlightened, right-thinking individuals.

I can understand why you wouldn't be a fan of "political correctness" if you saw it as a pretentious tool to demonstrate your enlightement or right thinkingness. But I have different reasons for using the terms with which people self-identify--it is simply a show of respect. I cannot purport to understand the nuances and histories of every cultural or social group. But I *can* demonstrate my respect for them from a distance. I can acknowledge that I am at a distance and always will be and act accordingly.

Hell, call it _manners_ if it makes things more pallatable. Manners are simply social rules which provide us with the tools to show people enough respect to avoid being the cause of their discomfort. It's quite simple really when it's deconstructed enough.

The other part of your argument is sort of a 'chicken or the egg' argument. _Is it the language that shapes the culture or the culture that shapes the language_? (I'm referring here to your KKK reference). That argument lends readily to the question 'what is reality?', 'how do we know what's real anyway?'. The reason is that it's pretty much impossible to answer. We would have to peel back the layers of human history to their very essence in order to discover whether the first humans had any form of communication prior to their development of culture. Since this is essentially an excercise in futility, I say that we work with what we know.

1) We know that language (communication) and culture are, at this time, inseperable from one another.
2) We desire justice, equality, and respect for all people (and acknowledge that it doesn't always exist in the day-to-day lives of our fellow humans).
3) We know it's impossible for us to simply change the social structure of our society in the blink of an eye.

- However, we _can_ control our use of language to reflect the above statements.
- Therefore, it is within our power to make some changes in our daily lives to pay respect to other human beings by simply making language choices to reflect that respect. and then...

tadaa! We aid in a social and cultural shift to accomodate the aspects we desire in statement 2.


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## kristenok18 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
It's about respect. I don't understand why that's so damned hard to understand, *except that maybe most people in the US don't give a rat's ass about respect unless they are seeking it out. Giving it seems to cause major pain and inconvenience.
*
Bellymama, I'm sorry. You made a simple, thoughtful request that anyone who gave half a brain cell's worth of effort should understand. Thank you for trying.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Bellymama


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## chrissy (Jun 5, 2002)

bellymama, i appreciate you sharing that with me. i certainly will make sure to spread the word.


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## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

There is a lot of weight to words. Simply by changing my choice of words, I can alter a situation. I do this quite often with my children. "No not now" vs. "Yes, later" gets me a very differenct response from my children.

PC or not, the way we use our language can change the way we see the world and the way others see us.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
Considering NA's are victims of genocide and forced assimilation and were virtually wiped off the face of the planet, I'm not surprised many of their languages are dying and they'd be using English words. And I don't see what's humorous about that, either. Actually, I find white people LAUGHING about it pretty offensive and disgusting.

Thank you for your post, bellymama.











Thanks for posting bellymama.







I guess some people are beyond offense...until they are offended usually.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
It's about respect. I don't understand why that's so damned hard to understand, except that maybe most people in the US don't give a rat's ass about respect unless they are seeking it out. Giving it seems to cause major pain and inconvenience.

Bellymama, I'm sorry. You made a simple, thoughtful request that anyone who gave half a brain cell's worth of effort should understand. Thank you for trying.

thank you. i appreciate this.
i agree that it is about respect. i also agree with the pp who posted about "PC" vs. "manners"....word on that.
Ironica, i understand that by not finding anything about the Dineh and their dismay over the use of the term "blessingway" on google may make you feel like it doesn't exist. if it isn't google-able, i guess it doesn't exist







right?
natives tend to be private people. they tend to not usually get in your face about things. it is often part of the way that their particular tribe's values are taught to them...this is obviously not always the case, but it is something i have known of many natives i have known who are what we would describe as "traditional" natives. so the fact that there are not manifesto's decrying the use of this word, or vitrolic hate mail from them, doesn't mean it isn't something that affects them. i promise you this. there are many native mama's on this board, while not necessarily Dineh,will tell you that the "use" of traditional/spiritual/cultural ceremonies, prayers, costuming outside of its intended use by the people it belongs to, is disrespectful and harmful and hurtful.
again, i was sharing this information because i felt that it was very important. yes, as a native, i DO feel like it is important and i DO feel like it is disrespectful.
but i can not make people do or feel anything and i can not change anyone. that is not my goal. its not my job. i can merely be the change i want to see in the world. and share what i know, and let others mull it over for themselves. if what i have shared with you doesn't move you to make a change, i understand. to each their own.
but know that the use of this word does hurt people. it does upset people. it does affect people. whether you think it should or not, doesn't affect that fact that it DOES.

i will repost this because it is a google-able document and you seem to need to have google-able document to prove the importance of this, rather than listening to actual native mamas telling you it does ,that shares that the Dine would like people to cease using this word to describe a mother blessing

http://pregnancy.about.com/gi/dynami...%2F4-1pg2.html

scroll down to see the added footnote

Quote:
*"1. In 2004, Native feminists wrote us to request that the term 'Blessingway' no longer be used to describe non-Navajo prenatal ceremonies such as the one described in this article. They explained that the term 'Blessingway' refers to a sacred spiritual ceremony performed by the Navajo people to celebrate rites of passage that occur throughout the entire life cycle, and not only the passage into motherhood. They suggested the term 'Mother Blessing' was a more appropriate term for a ceremony that was influenced, and respectful, of this tradition, but not practiced in accordance with the Navajo faith and culture. We completely agree.
Out of repect for the great history and importance of the Blessingway to Navajo people, many doulas, midwives and mothers now use the term 'Mother Blessing' to denote the celebration outlined in this article -- a practice we have also adopted."*
i appreciate these people are saying "out of *respect* for the *history* and *importance* of the Blessingway to the Navajo people"...that they, and other mothers doulas and midwives are now using the term "Mother Blessing".


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## anubis (Oct 6, 2006)

I'm going on a picnic in a park. I'll bring some bread and wine. I'll call it communion. I don't see why anyone should be offended if my practice just happens to be called that. It's not like the people in the Bible spoke English, it's just a translation or a word. The Pope speaks Latin for goodness' sake, why should we worry about what the English speaking followers of Christianity call it? I mean yeah, what I'm doing is not _exactly_ the same, we don't do the whole god bit, but otherwise it's pretty similar, so I don't see what the problem is.

I just don't see how it can be so hard to get. Someone asks me not to use a word thoughtlessly, I'll stop using it thoughtlessly. It's simple manners, as a pp put it. Nothing to do with "political correctness". Nothing to do with stomping my freedom of speech. It's a simple case of choosing a different word if I want to have a blessing of some sort for myself and/or future babies (which I don't think I'd do anyway because of my personal superstitions about celebrating before the baby's born, but that's a whole another ball of wax).

We've been given several suggestions for an alternative, but if it's not good enough, no one's stopping you from using the term itself. Just letting you know how many people in the group the term came from feel about it. You may choose to let that affect your decision, or you may choose not to. All that's happening here is bellymama giving us the tools for making an informed decision. Thank you for that, bellymama.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

thanks anubis.
i want to be clear that yes, i am NOT telling you what to do. you make your own decisions. i am just sharing this with you so that you can make an informed decision. so please don't feel like i am trying to control you. just passing along meaninful information.


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## Jane (May 15, 2002)

Thanks, bellymama.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
I can understand why you wouldn't be a fan of "political correctness" if you saw it as a pretentious tool to demonstrate your enlightement or right thinkingness. But I have different reasons for using the terms with which people self-identify--it is simply a show of respect. I cannot purport to understand the nuances and histories of every cultural or social group. But I *can* demonstrate my respect for them from a distance. I can acknowledge that I am at a distance and always will be and act accordingly.

Yes, and out of that respect, I do call people African-American rather than "black," even though it makes not a lot of sense to me personally.

I haven't, though, switched to calling the color "R0G0B0", and hope no one asks me to.

I wouldn't call an actual Navajo Blessingway a baby shower. That would be offensive. Calling people or their rituals by the wrong names, intentionally or in plain ignorance without any effort to find out... yeah, that's offensive.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
Ironica, i understand that by not finding anything about the Dineh and their dismay over the use of the term "blessingway" on google may make you feel like it doesn't exist. if it isn't google-able, i guess it doesn't exist







right?

Actually, it was more the utter lack of any explanation of where this comes from in the OP or any follow-up. I turned to Google as the library was closed when I was posting. If you don't give me the information, I gotta get it somewhere, right?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
natives tend to be private people. they tend to not usually get in your face about things. it is often part of the way that their particular tribe's values are taught to them...this is obviously not always the case, but it is something i have known of many natives i have known who are what we would describe as "traditional" natives.

Thanks for telling me all about the personalities of people I already explained I grew up around.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
so the fact that there are not manifesto's decrying the use of this word, or vitrolic hate mail from them, doesn't mean it isn't something that affects them. i promise you this. there are many native mama's on this board, while not necessarily Dineh,will tell you that the "use" of traditional/spiritual/cultural ceremonies, prayers, costuming outside of its intended use by the people it belongs to, is disrespectful and harmful and hurtful.

And there are those who will tell you its not. Who is right? Is it possible there are uses which are disrespectful, and uses which are not?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
again, i was sharing this information because i felt that it was very important.

You've shared very little information. The information you've shared is, "This is where the term comes from." Other than that, you've passed on a message that some people would like other people to change their behavior. You are not, apparently, any of those people; you're just a go-between.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
i can not make people do or feel anything and i can not change anyone. that is not my goal. its not my job.

If it's not your goal, then why did you come here and specifically ask people to change their behavior?

There are ways to enlighten people that don't involve telling them what to do. "For those planning to use the term Blessingway..." as a subject line. "You might be interested to know that the term Blessingway is used by the Dineh (also known as Navajo) peoples to describe a sacred ritual that involves the birth of a child. The ritual is far more involved, and is deeply personal to these people. Before using the term, you may wish to find out more about the important role this plays in Dineh culture, and consider whether the term is appropriate for the ceremony you're planning. Many people have chosen the terms "mother blessing" or "baby blessing" as an alternative." Then post the links for people to find out more about how serious and sacred this ritual is. I think you'd probably convert a LOT more people than by telling them to just not use the word because someone said it offends them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
i can merely be the change i want to see in the world. and share what i know, and let others mull it over for themselves.

I'm sure you can. I'd love it if you did. You haven't yet.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
if what i have shared with you doesn't move you to make a change, i understand. to each their own.

As I've said before, I'd never have used the term anyway, because using "blessing" doesn't suit me. So this isn't even a personal issue to me any more than it is to you... we're both discussing it only because we do care about how traditions and cultures are respected and kept, though we seem to have very different views on how this is to be accomplished.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
but know that the use of this word does hurt people. it does upset people. it does affect people. whether you think it should or not, doesn't affect that fact that it DOES.

My very *existence* hurts people. There are a thousand things each of us does every single day that someone else does or would find hurtful. We CANNOT tiptoe through life trying not to ever step on anyone's wounded pride. It just doesn't work that way. We do our best, but there's reasonable and unreasonable. I can't take responsibility for how the entire world feels.

As I mentioned in another post, if this were about someone using the term "baby shower" to describe a true Dineh Blessingway, wow would I get how offensive that would be. But I don't get why it's offensive to adopt the term, even though it may be, as I said before, dismaying to see people do it without knowing where it comes from. I think the message about where it comes from is IMPORTANT, and I think it gets lost when it's secondary to the "request" to "reconsider" using the term.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
http://pregnancy.about.com/gi/dynami...%2F4-1pg2.html

I'm sorry, it was 404 Not Found.

Please understand my quandary: you are a person who speaks of the Dineh in the third person, therefore not representative of the tribe yourself. You come and tell us all that doing X offends these other people. Well, we can't just ask them what the deal is, what about it is offensive, and so on. You don't seem to be able to tell us that, either. So it's hearsay. I'm not saying you're unreliable, but what I am saying is that there could be ONE Dineh person out there who is bugged by this and happened to confide it to you, so you're passing on her own personal message as representative of an entire culture, which isn't respectful or appropriate.

Now, I don't think that that's what actually *happened*, but the lack of further information does make me wonder just what *did* happen. I do wish I could find someone from the Dineh to ask "What up?" because I'm curious. I doubt it's as clear-cut as you make it out to be. Nothing about feelings is, in my experience.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
i appreciate these people are saying "out of *respect* for the *history* and *importance* of the Blessingway to the Navajo people"...that they, and other mothers doulas and midwives are now using the term "Mother Blessing".

Ok, yeah, that's a good way to put it.

Talking about "stealing" from other people is not a particularly good way to put it.

Now, there are all kinds of things that people believe, that change the import of others' actions to them. I remember when I first traveled to the interior of Mexico with my father, he advised me that, if a woman asked me to touch her baby, I should just do it. No one did, probably because my eyes are green, not blue like my father's... but some of the indios believe that a blue-eyed person can steal a baby's soul by looking at them, but they can give it back with a touch. Without knowing that, it's really, really strange to be asked to touch someone's baby because you have blue eyes, though.

So, if there were some particular belief of the Dineh that involves the use of the names of sacred ceremonies, such as they are not to be spoken except in certain contexts, or they lose their power if used for other things, this would make a bit more sense. There are probably other types contextual clues that would make it make sense, too. Since you're the messenger, maybe you have a way to find out, but since you (seem to) have no respect for my viewpoint or questions, you're not inclined to help me find out. Which is too bad, because I might have understood this culture better for your assistance.


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## GentleBirth (Feb 6, 2006)

Thank you for posting this!


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

i can't multi quote, so Ironica, i put your quotes in bold to make it easy to see when i am answering your question.

*Actually, it was more the utter lack of any explanation of where this comes from in the OP or any follow-up. I turned to Google as the library was closed when I was posting. If you don't give me the information, I gotta get it somewhere, right?*
i left a direct quote backing it. i have also left a link...i will go and find it again because it seems it isn't working.
it has been told to me by many native people that the co-opting of their traditions and rituals are very disrespectful and that they wish people would stop doing so.
i am a native so i feel like i can say that i feel it is disrespectful and that i wish people would stop doing so.

*Thanks for telling me all about the personalities of people I already explained I grew up around.*
your welcome?








why are you so angry mama? you were saying you couldn't find any info. i was sharing why i thought that it was difficult to find it via google. i meant nothing but to explain my thoughts.

*And there are those who will tell you its not. Who is right? Is it possible there are uses which are disrespectful, and uses which are not?*
i don't claim to know who is right. i know that the Dineh have requested we not use it. i know that because it isn't my ceremony or tribe, the word doesn't mean very much to me, so why not just not use it since it means so much to them.

*You've shared very little information. The information you've shared is, "This is where the term comes from." Other than that, you've passed on a message that some people would like other people to change their behavior. You are not, apparently, any of those people; you're just a go-between.*

i am a native. i feel like i can say as a native to non natives that this sort of appropriation is inappropriate. i have discussed it with other native mamas both in real life and on this board. i feel confident saying that the Dineh would rather it not be used.

*
If it's not your goal, then why did you come here and specifically ask people to change their behavior?*

i didn't ask them to. i specifically said "please rethink" and "reconsider"...i presented information for them to think about. i never said that i insisted they do so.

*There are ways to enlighten people that don't involve telling them what to do. "For those planning to use the term Blessingway..." as a subject line. "You might be interested to know that the term Blessingway is used by the Dineh (also known as Navajo) peoples to describe a sacred ritual that involves the birth of a child. The ritual is far more involved, and is deeply personal to these people. Before using the term, you may wish to find out more about the important role this plays in Dineh culture, and consider whether the term is appropriate for the ceremony you're planning. Many people have chosen the terms "mother blessing" or "baby blessing" as an alternative." Then post the links for people to find out more about how serious and sacred this ritual is. I think you'd probably convert a LOT more people than by telling them to just not use the word because someone said it offends them.*
i didn't tell anyone what to do. again, i requested them to reconsider. almost everone else who has posted in this thread seems to agree that i have not been pushy or rude about it. i am not sure why you feel i am. i am sorry that you feel that way.
the blessingway for the navajo is not a blessing for an expecting mother. that is ONE aspect of it. it is included but not the only part of it, which is why using the term to describe a baby shower or mother blessing is incorrect.
what you describe above is nearly word for word my OP. so i am at a loss on why you are rewriting it to tell me i SHOULD write it that way. mama, i DID write it that way.
my OP says "please rethink using the term blessingway to describe your baby shower"...the intro says "with all due respect, please consider not doing so" here is a link describing the ritual...here are some alternatives...here is a direct quote saying that the Navajo have asked us not too...
i am at a loss at what you are even talking about

*I'm sure you can. I'd love it if you did. You haven't yet.*
you are being rude here. thats really unneccesary.

*As I've said before, I'd never have used the term anyway, because using "blessing" doesn't suit me. So this isn't even a personal issue to me any more than it is to you... we're both discussing it only because we do care about how traditions and cultures are respected and kept, though we seem to have very different views on how this is to be accomplished.*

as a native, it IS PERSONAL TO ME that non natives are appropriating our traditions.

*
My very *existence* hurts people. There are a thousand things each of us does every single day that someone else does or would find hurtful. We CANNOT tiptoe through life trying not to ever step on anyone's wounded pride. It just doesn't work that way. We do our best, but there's reasonable and unreasonable. I can't take responsibility for how the entire world feels.*

no one wants you to take responsibility. i just asked you to RECONSIDER. that is ALL I ASKED.

*As I mentioned in another post, if this were about someone using the term "baby shower" to describe a true Dineh Blessingway, wow would I get how offensive that would be. But I don't get why it's offensive to adopt the term, even though it may be, as I said before, dismaying to see people do it without knowing where it comes from. I think the message about where it comes from is IMPORTANT, and I think it gets lost when it's secondary to the "request" to "reconsider" using the term.*

because calling a baby shower a Blessingway is offensive. it is NOT A BABY SHOWER. it is a life long ceremony. the "mother blessing" aspect is but one dimension of it. so its the same thing as calling a Blessingway a baby shower. you are not making any sense.
*
I'm sorry, it was 404 Not Found.*

i will go search for the correct link.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

for the 3rd time, here is a link that discusses the blessingway as a alternate name for a baby shower.
if you scroll down and read the footnotes, you will see that the people have added this:

*

Quote:

Quote:
"1. In 2004, Native feminists wrote us to request that the term 'Blessingway' no longer be used to describe non-Navajo prenatal ceremonies such as the one described in this article. They explained that the term 'Blessingway' refers to a sacred spiritual ceremony performed by the Navajo people to celebrate rites of passage that occur throughout the entire life cycle, and not only the passage into motherhood. They suggested the term 'Mother Blessing' was a more appropriate term for a ceremony that was influenced, and respectful, of this tradition, but not practiced in accordance with the Navajo faith and culture. We completely agree.

Out of repect for the great history and importance of the Blessingway to Navajo people, many doulas, midwives and mothers now use the term 'Mother Blessing' to denote the celebration outlined in this article -- a practice we have also adopted." [/B
]

http://pregnancy.about.com/gi/dynami...%2F4-1pg2.html
if they can be respectful...why can't you? why do you care so much? why are you so angry about it?
i'm not angry, i just.wanted.people.to.know.
now i finally understand why people put others on their ignore list.*


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

* double post


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

reposting my OP. after reading Ironica's post i was wondering:'hmmm...wonder if maybe my OP does sound like i am being mean and rude". i gotta say now after rereading it several times, and receiving a very nice pm from a mama thanking me for my OP, i am pretty confident that i phrased this topic in the best way i could.

Quote:

*OP:
with all due respect and kindess, i would like to ask anyone considering using the term Blessingway to describe their baby shower to reconsider this.in my town, lots of women choose to use this term because they wish to create a more spiritual celebration for their baby shower. this is a wonderful idea, and i think it should be done more. however, we need to use a more appropriate term to describe this.
the Blessingway is a very important part of the Dine (Navajo) tribes traditions. use of this word to describe anything but the actual ceremonies performed by members of this tribe is very disrespectful.
i doubt anyone who has used this term has ever intended to be offensive or disrespctful, so please don't think i am saying that. i just want to encourage you to create your own traditions rather than appropriating other traditions that already belong to other people.
Mother Blessing
Baby Blessing
Way of Blessing
Blessing the Way
any combination of these would suffice to symbolize what your intentions are without taking something from someone else.*


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## athansor (Feb 9, 2005)

I may have to look this up, but from what I understand (and a disclaimer here...I am not, or at least I don't think I am...Dineh, but I have spent a lot of time on a number of Dineh reservations, have studied the language and have attended a few ceremonies), the Blessingway is not a ceremony specifically related to the birth of a new baby. IIRC, it is more about restoring/healing someone.

I realize that there aren't a lot of websites with a detailed description of the Dine rituals and ceremonies, and I think that is the way that Dine people would prefer it. (Kind of like it is hard to find out what goes on at a high level Masonic event).

At least to me, calling a mother blessing a Blessingway is sort of like calling it an extreme unction.

I think it's very reasonable to request that a different term be used. First, it's the respectful thing to do, especially considering that requests have been made. Second, it isn't really an analagous ceremony. Really, if it makes people more comfortable if you use a different term, why not do it? (Now, if I could just get all those sports teams to understand that)


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
*Actually, it was more the utter lack of any explanation of where this comes from in the OP or any follow-up. I turned to Google as the library was closed when I was posting. If you don't give me the information, I gotta get it somewhere, right?*
i left a direct quote backing it. i have also left a link...i will go and find it again because it seems it isn't working.
it has been told to me by many native people that the co-opting of their traditions and rituals are very disrespectful and that they wish people would stop doing so.
i am a native so i feel like i can say that i feel it is disrespectful and that i wish people would stop doing so.

Ok, maybe *you* think that all Native Americans are the same, but I don't. So far, I've heard you and about.com say that you've heard from Dineh people that they find this use of the term offensive, and want it to stop. I've seen one other source that says they've heard that Dineh people do *not* find this use of the term offensive, and don't care. But so far, all I can find out is what other people tell me that Dineh people have told them. And I don't have any reason to believe one over the other... they're all very vague on just who communicated to them. At least the about.com page lists "Navajo feminists," which is *slightly* more specific.

Do I need to stop cooking with maize? Do we need to change the name of Cahuenga Boulevard? How far does it go? Since you can speak for all Natives everywhere, maybe you can also straighten out the whole controversy over reservation casinos, too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
*Thanks for telling me all about the personalities of people I already explained I grew up around.*
your welcome?








why are you so angry mama? you were saying you couldn't find any info. i was sharing why i thought that it was difficult to find it via google. i meant nothing but to explain my thoughts.

Unfortunately, I understood it as patronizing. Sorry if you didn't mean it that way, but since your entire attitude ("I know about native peoples because I'm native") is a bit patronizing to both natives and non-natives alike, it's hard to tell.

I'm starting to get angry because I feel I'm being intentionally misunderstood. I really need to stop reading this thread, because it seems that people have decided it's not something that is open to discussion... either you think it's perfectly reasonable to appropriate words for your group's own exclusive use, or you are a racist jerk.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
*And there are those who will tell you its not. Who is right? Is it possible there are uses which are disrespectful, and uses which are not?*
i don't claim to know who is right. i know that the Dineh have requested we not use it.

But, *how* do you know that? That's what I really am wondering and keep asking. Where does your knowledge come from? It doesn't come from being Dineh and finding it offensive on your own part for that reason... so it has to come from somewhere else. Does it come from about.com? From personal conversations? Can you explain to me how you know what the ENTIRE NATION feels about the use of this one term?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
i know that because it isn't my ceremony or tribe, the word doesn't mean very much to me, so why not just not use it since it means so much to them.

I still don't know that it really means all that much to them. I have your word on it, and a website that says they got letters. And another website that says it's not a big deal. I know what people who are NOT Dineh say. I've seen too darn much of people telling other people how natives feel (and getting it wrong) to just take it at face value.

I mean, how would you feel if someone from a total other native group than yours came here talking about how YOU feel about something? Even if they got it right in one, wouldn't it seem a little weird?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
*If it's not your goal, then why did you come here and specifically ask people to change their behavior?*

i didn't ask them to. i specifically said "please rethink" and "reconsider"...i presented information for them to think about. i never said that i insisted they do so.

I don't anymore know what you originally said, because you've updated your post several times subsequent to our conversation (which I find interesting, since you are adamant that I'm completely and totally WRONG about everything ;-). But you asked people to reconsider, rethink, and then provided them with alternatives, so that they might avoid "appropriating other traditions that already belong to other people." (I notice that you removed the term "stealing", but earlier you did use that to describe what people are doing when they use that particular word for their ceremony.)

But, whatever. Either you can see the difference between the example I gave, or you can't.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
the blessingway for the navajo is not a blessing for an expecting mother. that is ONE aspect of it. it is included but not the only part of it, which is why using the term to describe a baby shower or mother blessing is incorrect.

I totally agree that it is incorrect, and I think that posting the links to information about the Blessingway and the Dineh communicate that fairly well. But saying that it's incorrect is not the same as saying it's offensive and disrespectful.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
what you describe above is nearly word for word my OP. so i am at a loss on why you are rewriting it to tell me i SHOULD write it that way. mama, i DID write it that way.

Ok, obviously, you can't see the difference in the language, which is a big part of the communication difficulty we're having. The difference is avoiding loaded language, and simply presenting the facts (this is what a Blessingway is; it's a sacred ritual among these people; it may not be the best term to describe what you're doing), without telling people they're offending and disrespectful and appropriating someone else's culture. You admit that you don't think anyone's *trying* to do that, so why even bring it up? If they want to avoid doing these things, then giving them the information should be enough, without trying to shame them into doing things differently.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
*I'm sure you can. I'd love it if you did. You haven't yet.*
you are being rude here. thats really unneccesary.

How am I being rude? I keep asking actual questions about this topic, and I'm being rude for pointing out that you haven't answered them? It's kinda rude to walk in and say "Hey, look, this is offensive and disrespecful" and when people say "Why? How so? Where can I find out more about this controversy?" to just turn your nose up and act like they're boors for even *asking* and not taking your word as gospel.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
as a native, it IS PERSONAL TO ME that non natives are appropriating our traditions.

And, as a person of mixed ancestry who was raised to strongly value cultural diversity and integrity, it's personal to me when people say that there's no respectful way to use each other's words or traditions. It means that I have NO way to do anything appropriate, unless I make it up from whole cloth (which, given the vast panoply of human cultural tradition, is nearly impossible to do without accidentally borrowing from someone else). Was it offensive when my family accomodated my 4-year-old curiosity by getting a menorah and lighting the Chaunakkah candles? Would it have been offensive (to Christians) for my Jewish friends to have put up a creche? If using another's traditions is *always* offensive and disrespectful, pray tell what is a couple to do if they come from different traditions?

Since there must be appropriate ways to borrow or adapt the traditions of others, I wish we could have a discussion on just what is stepping over the line if a non-Dineh has a Blessingway, but you don't seem interested in that conversation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
*My very *existence* hurts people. There are a thousand things each of us does every single day that someone else does or would find hurtful. We CANNOT tiptoe through life trying not to ever step on anyone's wounded pride. It just doesn't work that way. We do our best, but there's reasonable and unreasonable. I can't take responsibility for how the entire world feels.*

no one wants you to take responsibility. i just asked you to RECONSIDER. that is ALL I ASKED.

You said "The use of this word hurts people." I said, "We can't all take responsibility for how everyone feels." IOW... sometimes, things hurt people, but that is something that they need to deal with. It hurts my Mom when I don't drop EVERYTHING important in my life to try to attend to her emotional needs, but that doesn't mean I need to change my behavior. People need to make judgments about whether or not a request like this is reasonable. I'm suggesting that, maybe, as stated, it's not reasonable. I'm *also* asking for further information that might make it reasonable. That's the part that isn't happening at all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
because calling a baby shower a Blessingway is offensive. it is NOT A BABY SHOWER.

This is backwards.

Calling a (real) Blessingway a baby shower would be offensive, because a Blessingway is not a baby shower. That I've granted many times. But you're using false causality here. Calling a baby shower a Blessingway doesn't suddenly change reality. It's not the same as calling a (real) Blessingway a baby shower.

Is naming a child Jesus offensive, because he's not the Christ? Is calling a section of Los Angeles "Little Tokyo" offensive, because it's not the capital city of Japan? Naming one thing after another is not typically seen to diminish the importance of the original; rather, it normally is seen to honor and increase it.

Of course, there are specific circumstances where naming someone or something after someone or something else might be offensive; some traditions find it unconscionable to name a child after a living person, for example. The popularity of the name "Adolf" took a nosedive after the rise of Hitler. And perhaps there's something else to this whole Blessingway thing that would make it click into place, but I have no way of finding out what that is. You might, but you refuse to share it, I guess... so I'll be unable to learn anything further from this thread, unfortunately.


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## JorgieGirl (May 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Is naming a child Jesus offensive, because he's not the Christ? Is calling a section of Los Angeles "Little Tokyo" offensive, because it's not the capital city of Japan? Naming one thing after another is not typically seen to diminish the importance of the original; rather, it normally is seen to honor and increase it.

Of course, there are specific circumstances where naming someone or something after someone or something else might be offensive; some traditions find it unconscionable to name a child after a living person, for example. The popularity of the name "Adolf" took a nosedive after the rise of Hitler. And perhaps there's something else to this whole Blessingway thing that would make it click into place, but I have no way of finding out what that is. You might, but you refuse to share it, I guess... so I'll be unable to learn anything further from this thread, unfortunately.

Popping in to say this is how I would see it.

People using the term 'blessingway' who aren't Navajo aren't doing it to offend, they are doing it to honour. Why there needs to be a bruhaha about something that is intended to be goodhearted is just picking the wrong battle. Seriously, there are much worse things going on in this world that need the attention.


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## gingerbane (Jun 10, 2007)

Ahhhh, threads like this always get so muddled which is why they're so interesting to read but also why I usually stay out of them. I'm just so interested in this though. I think this thread has the usual problem of misinterpreting what others are "trying" to say.

Bellymama - I understand that you are a native and that this is a very important subject to you but I think some of the problems that other people are having are that you asked us to "rethink" a very serious issue. The process of rethinking involves thinking again, questioning, mulling over in our minds the original subject. For some they see a right answer right away (i.e. okay I'll stop using the term) but for some the rethinking just opens up questions.

In threads like this it always seems like the questioners are waylaid and outnumbered while those who have come to the immediate and "right" conclusion are lauded and comforted. I have always found this somewhat distasteful. I've lurked on these threads quite a bit and I've always thought this (whether I agree with the "questioners" views or not). There is always one side that is patted on the back while the other side is asked time and time again why they don't "get" the "correct" answer.

Your post has brought to light a lot of questions for me and for others too. I don't think that questioning certain things means that those questioning are being disrespectful but I feel as if those asking questions have been disrespected. We are questioning because we care and want to know more. We are interested.

There are many things about this that I don't understand and perhaps I never will but I will ask my questions here in a respectful manner and I hope I am treated the same.

The first thing I don't understand is this: I've done the research and according to it the root in Navajo for the term blessingway means many things.

"The name of the right, hozhooji, which we render blessingway is derived from a stem which has no equivalent in English. Like the Greek Arete which is usually translated as excellence, but actually covers all form of human excellence and implies an ideal of wholeness and harmony, the Navajo term implies everything a Navajo things is good...It expresses for the Navajo such concepts as the words beauty, perfection, harmony, goodness, normality, success, well-being, blessedness, ideal, order, do for us." (Holism in Navajo Language and Culture)

I wonder why the Navajo people wouldn't want to just use the original term because the English equivalent is such a pale shadow of the depth or real meaning that the original word has. I question why the native feminists wouldn't go a step further and just go back to the original and not worry about the word blessingway because next to the richness of the original it is so bland (again I am not a native so maybe my perspective is just completely not getting it) but maybe this is a question only the Native Feminists can answer.

My second question is this (and I think this is what Ironica was getting at when she was talking about trying to find stuff on google): Who are these native feminists? Everyone keeps saying that the Dineh people have asked us not to use the term blessingway but I can only find that the Native Femisists are the ones who requested this. Are these femenists Navajo? Where did they come from? Did they decide this at a huge convention? Who are they?

I also wonder if the Navajo nation has made a statement or request about this?

I don't ask these questions to be rude or to make you have to "prove" to me that your request is the right thing to do. I believe in respecting people, your post just made me rethink the issue and come up with some questions. If anyone knows the answer to these I would like to know. If I could get a hold of the Native Feminists I would ask them so if anyone has information on how I could contact them, please let me know too.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

Although I'm not well researched, I was under the impressions that a blessingway can be used for many passages. Having a new baby, losing a baby, helping to prepare someone who is dying for their death, etc. The only blessingway I went to was NOTHING Like a baby shower. The only "gifts" if you want to call them that, were handmade items, maybe we should call these offerings. I offered a painting of a baby crowning with words of laboring encouragement painted throughout. A poem was read, a frames photo of her passed father was given. It was truly beautiful. There were no pink and blue frilly new price tagged items to be seen. The whole thing from beginning to end was a ritual focused on the mother and the passage of the babies into our world. It was beautiful, and I think any Navajo who witnessed it would not be offended.

I think they WOULD be offended if someone had a "blessingway" and it was more like a shower, or if within the ritual there was mocking of the ritual going on. I would totally understand that. I agree with the poster who said "would the jews be mad if we had a 15 party, etc".


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

again i suck at multi quote, so Ironicas post is the bold and my response is the not bold. i need to get with these technological times.
*
Do I need to stop cooking with maize? Do we need to change the name of Cahuenga Boulevard? How far does it go? Since you can speak for all Natives everywhere, maybe you can also straighten out the whole controversy over reservation casinos, too.*

you are being so passive aggressive here its really unbelievable. i don't speak for anybody...you really have a lot of nerve insulting me like this. i didn't post this topic to piss anybody off. i posted it to share knowledge. i knew that not everyone would agree with me. that is okay. i simply wanted to put it out there.
there is not much on the topic in the world wide web, this is true. just like a pp said, most native people's don't broadcast their sacred traditions for non tribal members.
this is a reality. members of the dine tribe would like it to not be used. of course there may be members who are indifferent or even WANT people to use it. but there are some that don't. i respect that. there might be members of certain ethnic groups who don't mind if people who are not of their ethnic group use derogatory terms to describe them. but i still am not going to use those terms, because it is offense and hurtful to other members.

*Unfortunately, I understood it as patronizing. Sorry if you didn't mean it that way, but since your entire attitude ("I know about native peoples because I'm native") is a bit patronizing to both natives and non-natives alike, it's hard to tell.*
this is not my attitude. no one but you has said anything about my attitude as such. i seem to be upsetting you, which is not my intention. i find your attitude a bit patronizing as well. i am okay with the fact that you may not find this issue something to worry about...again, i never expected that everyone would necessarily agree with me, or even care. i simply wanted to put it out there.

*I'm starting to get angry because I feel I'm being intentionally misunderstood. I really need to stop reading this thread, because it seems that people have decided it's not something that is open to discussion... either you think it's perfectly reasonable to appropriate words for your group's own exclusive use, or you are a racist jerk.*

i don't think this at all. all of your points have been duly noted, and i can see your perspective completely. however you have been rude, you have scoffed and laughed at the topic and you have worded your questions and responses in a really cold and sharp way. i see no reason for us to angrily argue. i am okay with discussing this with you. but i didn't come here to have a fight.
i don't think you are a racist jerk.

*
But, *how* do you know that? That's what I really am wondering and keep asking. Where does your knowledge come from? It doesn't come from being Dineh and finding it offensive on your own part for that reason... so it has to come from somewhere else. Does it come from about.com? From personal conversations? Can you explain to me how you know what the ENTIRE NATION feels about the use of this one term?*
i have the knowlegde from MANY tribes of natives that this occurence, the appropriation of terms, ceremonies and dress can be very upsetting. i do not speak for the entire nation. i have knowledge from discussing it here at MDC with other native mamas. i have knowledge shared with me from other mamas spreading the word that they have heard from other Dine mamas. but again, when i read my OP i don't make any claims...i just stated the facts and shared some info. i am not holding a gun to anyones head.
should i NOT say anything simply because i don't have the spokesperson for the Dine tribe here right now?

*I still don't know that it really means all that much to them. I have your word on it, and a website that says they got letters. And another website that says it's not a big deal. I know what people who are NOT Dineh say. I've seen too darn much of people telling other people how natives feel (and getting it wrong) to just take it at face value.*
then you are going to take that from my OP. and that is totally fine. you shouldn't just see one thing and necessarily agree with it. i hope other people see the OP and think to themselves that they should educate themselves more on the subject. maybe they will feel like me, or maybe they will feel like you. this is all okay. its simply good to have the concept introduced.

*I don't anymore know what you originally said, because you've updated your post several times subsequent to our conversation (which I find interesting, since you are adamant that I'm completely and totally WRONG about everything ;-). But you asked people to reconsider, rethink, and then provided them with alternatives, so that they might avoid "appropriating other traditions that already belong to other people." (I notice that you removed the term "stealing", but earlier you did use that to describe what people are doing when they use that particular word for their ceremony.)*

i updated my post to fix the link that you said wasn't working. i removed the word stealing not to be devious, but because you said it bothered you. because that word affected the way you viewed my intention, i didn't want to use it. it upset you. WORDS ARE POWERFUL(which is the whole point i am trying to make!). i am happy to evolve and change when my mistakes are pointed out. i didn't feel like i needed the rest of MDC to tell me that the word stealing was making you feel bad before i stopped using it. you told me it made you feel badly. i stopped using it.
i didn't change one other part of the OP.

*Ok, obviously, you can't see the difference in the language, which is a big part of the communication difficulty we're having. The difference is avoiding loaded language, and simply presenting the facts (this is what a Blessingway is; it's a sacred ritual among these people; it may not be the best term to describe what you're doing), without telling people they're offending and disrespectful and appropriating someone else's culture. You admit that you don't think anyone's *trying* to do that, so why even bring it up? If they want to avoid doing these things, then giving them the information should be enough, without trying to shame them into doing things differently.*

no one seems to feel shamed but you. i have recieved now several really sweet pm's thanking me for the way i presented this. the women were planning blessingways for friends. they said that the way i said it was very kind and that they were now calling it a mother blessing. and they thanked me.
i "brought it up" because it needed to be. you have decided it didn't need to be. okay. i get it. you don't have to agree with me.

*Since there must be appropriate ways to borrow or adapt the traditions of others, I wish we could have a discussion on just what is stepping over the line if a non-Dineh has a Blessingway, but you don't seem interested in that conversation.*

you can be inspired by the Blessingway's aspect that deals with motherhood. you can use this to create a new and unique way to celebrate and bless the mother. there is no question that that is appropriate. creating your own new tradition. and calling it a new name.
i am more than willing to discuss this. the Dineh cited in the OP even said that they thought that was okay...to be inspired and moved. just choose a different name.

look, i honestly don't want to fight with you. i don't think you are racist or horrible. i see all of your points. everythings cool mama.
this is how i feel, and thats how you feel. no worries.


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## Full Heart (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JorgieGirl* 
Popping in to say this is how I would see it.

People using the term 'blessingway' who aren't Navajo aren't doing it to offend, they are doing it to honour. Why there needs to be a bruhaha about something that is intended to be goodhearted is just picking the wrong battle. Seriously, there are much worse things going on in this world that need the attention.

Imitation is the sincerist form of flatery - as the saying goes.

I don't see why its offensive as its english and not their native language. If they were using their native language it would be totally different. If we are gonna get picky about it Blessing Way is actually the translation.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gingerbane* 
There is always one side that is patted on the back while the other side is asked time and time again why they don't "get" the "correct" answer.

Very astute observation there!

I keep thinking - what did I learn in "linguist school" about these things. Words mean what a group of people decide they mean. Xerox wants you to say "photocopy" cause if everyone keeps "xeroxing" they will loose their trademark. This feels a little similar to me - so I can see the fear that a sacred term might be appropriated by a dominant culture. But then I also find the argument compelling that they have the term in their native language and no body is making any pass at that, so why the hoopla? Interesting to think about...


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## rabrog (Dec 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Do I need to stop cooking with maize? Do we need to change the name of Cahuenga Boulevard? How far does it go?

Unfortunately, I understood it as patronizing. Sorry if you didn't mean it that way, *but since your entire attitude ("I know about native peoples because I'm native") is a bit patronizing to both natives and non-natives alike*, it's hard to tell.

I totally agree with Ironica.

Bellymama, you always come out swinging and instead of trying to inform, your posts treat people as if they haven't a clue and whatever they are doing or not doing is wrong so stop it now. When I see a post by you, my first thought is "oh boy, here we go again..." It's one thing to want to inform and say "hey, here's where this word comes from, isn't that cool?" Education is great. Telling people to not use words because of such and such is, I think, very rude. If the word is never used by anyone outside of said culture, it's going to die. I think it far more useful to let other use the word and educate them about the meaning behind it than to say "don't do that because a people group you've never heard of finds it offensive."







:

You could be a very useful resource to people if you would not point fingers and be angry every time you try to educate.

Jenn


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## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabrog* 
I totally agree with Ironica.

Bellymama, you always come out swinging and instead of trying to inform, your posts treat people as if they haven't a clue and whatever they are doing or not doing is wrong so stop it now. When I see a post by you, my first thought is "oh boy, here we go again..." It's one thing to want to inform and say "hey, here's where this word comes from, isn't that cool?" Education is great. Telling people to not use words because of such and such is, I think, very rude. If the word is never used by anyone outside of said culture, it's going to die. I think it far more useful to let other use the word and educate them about the meaning behind it than to say "don't do that because a people group you've never heard of finds it offensive."







:

You could be a very useful resource to people if you would not point fingers and be angry every time you try to educate.

Jenn









:

I keep hearing about secret this, secret that.... and compairing it to the masons? Almost anyone can get into that group but it has been made clear before that you must be native to get real teaching.....

Again, why is about certain groups and not about PEOPLE of all kinds as ONE.

All these "secretish" people make it dang hard to be educated on a subject I am seeing because we are not "native" enough I guess. -shrug-


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Admittedly, I haven't read many threads by Bellymama, but I thought that she was keeping her composure very well in this thread.


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## anubis (Oct 6, 2006)

I'd just like to know what the problem is with not using the term. There are several suggestions for alternatives in the very first post. Or you can come up with your own name for your own celebration. Yes, there probably are Dineh people who don't care about how the term is used, but we've been informed that some Dineh are offended. I'm sure no one's going to be offended if we use a different term.

I love how this gets turned around into "ooh they're keeping secrets from us, how dare they ask us to show respect for them without telling us why". This is exactly what happens to pretty much all minority groups. Minorities are accused of keeping to themselves (I can't count the times I've read on the papers here about different minorities not integrating and how horrible they are for it). If we could turn that thinking around just for a while we could maybe ask "why don't our ways attract minorities". As it is, it seems to be that if a minority group wants respect, they're going to get to work for it on their own and they better keep explaining again and again why they want it. Me, I'd call this a reasonable request and refrain from using a term that can be offensive. It's not up to others to further educate me. If I want to know more I've got the internet at my disposal, as well as libraries.

I must say I fail to find the post where bellymama says she's going to come and break your legs if you use the term, or in any way forbids you to use it. I see "please reconsider" and "I want to encourage", others seem to see personal insults. I don't see why there would be a need to get defensive about a simple request to reconsider the use of a word that has the potential to cause offense.

Personally, even if I was into baby showers or blessings of any kind, I would just feel silly using a term of such deep cultural meaning for my celebration. Most cultural and religious terms have been translated into different languages as people have moved around. The word mosque is English for the Arabic word 'masjid'. Doesn't mean I'd want to use the word mosque to mean my toilet, no matter how much meditation and soul searching I might do in there. If the meaning of a word is changed everytime it's translated, it kinda defeats the purpose of ever translating anything IMO.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Interesting thread . . . I think if someone says something offends them, we can, within reason, refrain from doing that thing especially if it really doesn't hurt us in anyway but does make another feel heard and respected.

That being said, what is the original word for "Blessingway? I would think had _that_ word been adopted and used so casually, it would be cause for more uproar. But "Blessingway" is an English compound word and I'm pretty sure it probably doesn't denote the depth and breadth of what the original word denotes. I guess I'm not sure why native people would be fighting for a non-native word and why it would matter that much because it's not even their original word.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabrog* 
I totally agree with Ironica.

Bellymama, you always come out swinging and instead of trying to inform, your posts treat people as if they haven't a clue and whatever they are doing or not doing is wrong so stop it now. When I see a post by you, my first thought is "oh boy, here we go again..." It's one thing to want to inform and say "hey, here's where this word comes from, isn't that cool?" Education is great. Telling people to not use words because of such and such is, I think, very rude. If the word is never used by anyone outside of said culture, it's going to die. I think it far more useful to let other use the word and educate them about the meaning behind it than to say "don't do that because a people group you've never heard of finds it offensive."







:

You could be a very useful resource to people if you would not point fingers and be angry every time you try to educate.

Jenn

i'm sorry you feel this way. i apologize for making you feel like this. it is never my intention. i tried very hard to word this post in a kind way. i have recieved good feedback from it. but i know i can't please everyone. again, i am sorry to make you feel this way.

ETA: i just reread the whole thread to see where i am "coming out swinging"....and i just don't see it. i don't doubt that in another thread i may have behaved in a way that is innapropriate. but this is THIS thread and in this thread i have been pretty nice. i have repeatedly said that i think its okay to have a different opinion than me, i have apologized any time anyone said that something i said upset them. i changed the word "Stealing" to "taking" because ironica told me it upset her. i have gone out of my way to be peaceable and kind.
i feel like maybe you are judging me from a previous thread...which seems unfair.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HerthElde* 
Admittedly, I haven't read many threads by Bellymama, but I thought that she was keeping her composure very well in this thread.

thanks. this is what most people in the thread who have posted have said, as well as the several pm's i have recived about it.
of course who knows what people who read and didn't post have thought.
again, i did not mean to piss anyone off. i did not want to start a fight. i did not think that everyone would suddenly say: "oh okay, well now we are going to do this". i simply wanted to share something that i learned, from a few native mama's here as well as doing some research myself and from my personal feelings. i am not God. no one has to do what i say. no one even has to listen. if this is upsetting you, file it away under "who gives a damn" and stop reading it.
but i am not going to NOT share what i think or have learned simply because a few people don't like it.
i AM sorry to have upset or angered anyone. that is not my intention. its hard to sometimes "hear" someones tone in an online discussion...if we had actually been talking to eachother rather than writing, perhaps it would be easier to realize that i am not "coming out swinging"...again, my apologies.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anubis* 
I'd just like to know what the problem is with not using the term. There are several suggestions for alternatives in the very first post. Or you can come up with your own name for your own celebration. Yes, there probably are Dineh people who don't care about how the term is used, but we've been informed that some Dineh are offended. I'm sure no one's going to be offended if we use a different term.

I must say I fail to find the post where bellymama says she's going to come and break your legs if you use the term, or in any way forbids you to use it. I see "please reconsider" and "I want to encourage", others seem to see personal insults. *I don't see why there would be a need to get defensive about a simple request to reconsider the use of a word that has the potential to cause offense.*
Personally, even if I was into baby showers or blessings of any kind, I would just feel silly using a term of such deep cultural meaning for my celebration. Most cultural and religious terms have been translated into different languages as people have moved around. The word mosque is English for the Arabic word 'masjid'. Doesn't mean I'd want to use the word mosque to mean my toilet, no matter how much meditation and soul searching I might do in there. If the meaning of a word is changed everytime it's translated, it kinda defeats the purpose of ever translating anything IMO.

great post.
you must have missed the post where i said i was coming to break legs







...that was in the OP but i edited it to be sneaky







.
i bolded the part that really means the most to me. i have really really tried to be clear in several posts now that i am not telling you not to use the term. i am asking you to rethink it. to reconsider it. you may decide that you still want to use it. that is your decision. i simply wanted to bring to people's attention that this word's usage in terms of a baby shower is offensive to some people. i would want to know if i was doing something like that.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Moth to a flame...









Signed, the devil's advocate


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
Moth to a flame...









Signed, the devil's advocate

i know...its like a car wreck you can't look away from.
everybody, i really sincerely from the bottom of my heart. never meant this to make anyone feel bad. i never wanted us to fight over it. i would love to continue discussing anything you want to discuss, but i really don't want us to start personally attacking eachother.
much love!


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

I'd just like to point out that the objection raised by some of us was not to the question itself (why are natives objecting to non-natives using an English term that describes a native ceremony) but to the way in which it occured.

That way being flippant, condescending, mocking, and cruel.

Carry on.


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## delfin (Jul 11, 2007)

this discussion has been quite interesting, i can understand both sides, and while i never used the term blessingway because i live in a spanish speaking country i wouldnt have a problem using a different one if that is better for a group of people.
But my observation is that i first encountered the term in one of Aviva Jill Romm's books, The natural pregnancy book, where she suggests a blessingway instead of a baby shower. I dont know if she is from a NA heritage, she is a renowed herbalist and midwife who seems to have a lot of respect for NA culture, she encourages mamas to listen to NA flute music to their babies and i have seen pics of her where she is wearing NA jewlery(not that that would be enough to show true respect for a culture, but that's the impression i get).
I don't know, maybe when she did this she had the idea that people would rethink the rituals of passage, but then people just started to call a normal baby shower a blessingway? For what i read is so ot the same...


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
I'd just like to point out that the objection raised by some of us was not to the question itself (why are natives objecting to non-natives using an English term that describes a native ceremony) but to the way in which it occured.

That way being flippant, condescending, mocking, and cruel.

Carry on.

i agree.


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## Emmalina (Apr 2, 2006)

This thread has been lingering in my mind since I read it yesterday. I don't know if I have anything valid to add but hopefully getting my thoughts down on 'paper' will stop them buzzing around in my pregnant brain!

I can completely understand why someone would find it upsetting to see something that is, to them, sacred, being used in a flippant way by those who don't understand its true significance. I have experience in this area and it can be tricky. However, I also think it is valid that when a request or point is made another can simply say 'no' or 'I don't agree'. I feel this is what Ironica has done, put across an argument that essentially says 'I don't agree'.

As for using the term 'Blessingway' I find this difficult. I don't really understand baby showers, I am british so it isn't part of our culture. I've been to a couple and have mixed feelings about what they are for and the intent behind them. I can understand a woman wanting to create something different and wanting to use a beautiful word to describe her own unique and, I believe, sacred journey. Perhaps that difference is small to an outsider, a little change from the norm. But her desire to use a more sacred word (and I believe that some words are sacred in their nature and resonate regardless of cultural bias) is a signal of a shift in consciousness no matter how small.

When I see all of the children out trick or treating tonight I could choose to be upset by their seeming lack of understanding of the ancient tradition and deep magic that is at work tonight. For me it is a sacred night, the most important of the year. In fact I see a manifestation of the true spirit of this night, maybe those who are running around in silly costumes don't understand the urges they are acting out, but I see them acting upon ancient and powerful forces no matter how superficially. I hope that the true nature of this night may draw them a tiny bit closer to a deeper understanding of life and death, of what is possible.

I think a woman using the word Blessingway is a sign of her desire for poetry to describe her own journey, perhaps in a way that she is not able to fully articulate. Does it in any way touch upon the sacred nature of the true ceremony practised for thousands of years? Nope. But I hope that these incidents of 'stealing' that happens from all ancient cultures when appropriated by the new are a symptom or an acknowledgement of the sacred nature of what you (and I) and trying to protect.

Maybe people will abide by your request, if not perhaps the word itself has the power to change the way in which some people see their journey.

Thanks for raising this topic, it has given me a lot to think about.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I worked with some of the last traditional Dine' peoples in Black Mesa, Arizona in 1997. Ironically, I was told by the remaining elders that the representatives of the Dine' Nation do not represent the old ways.

When missionaries from Christian and LDS groups swooped down on them, they stole their children and raised them in "white" boarding schools. They were beaten for saying anything in their native tongue. When they were grown, and thoroughly brainwashed, they became the "representatives" for their people. They sold the lands to Peabody Coal back in the 70's. The peoples, except for a stubborn strong few, were relocated to uranium-contaminated lands where, as you can imagine, birth defects and illness ran rampant.

The stubborn few that remained were harrassed and threatened with eviction by Peabody Coal - and their supposed tribal "representatives" - on a regular basis. Peabody Coal used up all the land's water so that Black Mesa was - and still is - a drought area and the native people cannot even water their animals without walking for miles and miles to drink from extremely dank, dirty contaminated run off spots.

I know that to these particular peoples - the last true natives who are sticking to their old ways, ie., no electricity, raising their own livestock, etc. - appropriation of a word is the very last thing on their minds. It is possible that the white-bred tribal leaders really really do care about appropriation, and it's possible that some of these leaders aren't brainwashed like they were way back when. And I guess maybe it is crass of me to say hey, look, I know for a fact that these remaining true Dine' peoples who stick to the old ways and have no access to internet or the "outside world" could give a rats ass about the blessingway. Maybe just because they are the last "true" Dine', by the cultural definition of the word, doesn't make a Dine' person who eats Burger King every day, wears Nikes, and posts on the internet any less... well.... Dine'. I don't know. This has always been a very intense subject for me.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

FTR, my friends and I have always done "birth blessings". It's worked well for us.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland* 
I worked with some of the last traditional Dine' peoples in Black Mesa, Arizona in 1997. Ironically, I was told by the remaining elders that the representatives of the Dine' Nation do not represent the old ways.

When missionaries from Christian and LDS groups swooped down on them, they stole their children and raised them in "white" boarding schools. They were beaten for saying anything in their native tongue. When they were grown, and thoroughly brainwashed, they became the "representatives" for their people. They sold the lands to Peabody Coal back in the 70's. The peoples, except for a stubborn strong few, were relocated to uranium-contaminated lands where, as you can imagine, birth defects and illness ran rampant.

The stubborn few that remained were harrassed and threatened with eviction by Peabody Coal - and their supposed tribal "representatives" - on a regular basis. Peabody Coal used up all the land's water so that Black Mesa was - and still is - a drought area and the native people cannot even water their animals without walking for miles and miles to drink from extremely dank, dirty contaminated run off spots.

I know that to these particular peoples - the last true natives who are sticking to their old ways, ie., no electricity, raising their own livestock, etc. - appropriation of a word is the very last thing on their minds. It is possible that the white-bred tribal leaders really really do care about appropriation, and it's possible that some of these leaders aren't brainwashed like they were way back when. And I guess maybe it is crass of me to say hey, look, I know for a fact that these remaining true Dine' peoples who stick to the old ways and have no access to internet or the "outside world" could give a rats ass about the blessingway. Maybe just because they are the last "true" Dine', by the cultural definition of the word, doesn't make a Dine' person who eats Burger King every day, wears Nikes, and posts on the internet any less... well.... Dine'. I don't know. This has always been a very intense subject for me.

thank you for sharing this with us.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I know it really didn't do too much for the thread itself, sorry.









What I DO know is that when I know a group of people find a term offensive - even if it's not every single person in said "group" - I simply don't use it anymore. I don't find it that difficult, ya know?

For example, I was raised in an Atheist home and I consider myself more..... pagan/earth-centered/New Age..... don't really have a "term" for myself, lol. A bit of everything out there, I guess. But I know that saying "Oh my gosh!" instead of "Oh my God!" is a better habit to get into, because the word God is really sacred and special to many people. And even if blessingway is offensive to a small percentage of a minority group, why do I have to use it? Even if there's a chance that it's something special and sacred to these people, I don't understand the need to use it. But that's just me.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland* 
I know it really didn't do too much for the thread itself, sorry.









What I DO know is that when I know a group of people find a term offensive - even if it's not every single person in said "group" - I simply don't use it anymore. I don't find it that difficult, ya know?

For example, I was raised in an Atheist home and I consider myself more..... pagan/earth-centered/New Age..... don't really have a "term" for myself, lol. A bit of everything out there, I guess. But I know that saying "Oh my gosh!" instead of "Oh my God!" is a better habit to get into, because the word God is really sacred and special to many people. And even if blessingway is offensive to a small percentage of a minority group, why do I have to use it? Even if there's a chance that it's something special and sacred to these people, I don't understand the need to use it. But that's just me.










i agree. while i don't doubt that there are many Dine people who really aren't worried about it one way or another, or perhaps are unaware that it is even happening, i know for a fact that some do care...and even one is enough for me, because these traditions are theirs and not mine.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

oh, and candiland, i love your senior title. tom robbins is my favorite author!!!!


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## jesslynnbo (Nov 18, 2006)

Gingerbane, I think you stated the below beautifully. I pretty much never ever post, but I couldn't stop myself on this one. I have the same questions and would really love to have more information about this issue.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gingerbane* 
Ahhhh, threads like this always get so muddled which is why they're so interesting to read but also why I usually stay out of them. I'm just so interested in this though. I think this thread has the usual problem of misinterpreting what others are "trying" to say.

Bellymama - I understand that you are a native and that this is a very important subject to you but I think some of the problems that other people are having are that you asked us to "rethink" a very serious issue. The process of rethinking involves thinking again, questioning, mulling over in our minds the original subject. For some they see a right answer right away (i.e. okay I'll stop using the term) but for some the rethinking just opens up questions.

In threads like this it always seems like the questioners are waylaid and outnumbered while those who have come to the immediate and "right" conclusion are lauded and comforted. I have always found this somewhat distasteful. I've lurked on these threads quite a bit and I've always thought this (whether I agree with the "questioners" views or not). There is always one side that is patted on the back while the other side is asked time and time again why they don't "get" the "correct" answer.

Your post has brought to light a lot of questions for me and for others too. I don't think that questioning certain things means that those questioning are being disrespectful but I feel as if those asking questions have been disrespected. We are questioning because we care and want to know more. We are interested.

There are many things about this that I don't understand and perhaps I never will but I will ask my questions here in a respectful manner and I hope I am treated the same.

The first thing I don't understand is this: I've done the research and according to it the root in Navajo for the term blessingway means many things.

"The name of the right, hozhooji, which we render blessingway is derived from a stem which has no equivalent in English. Like the Greek Arete which is usually translated as excellence, but actually covers all form of human excellence and implies an ideal of wholeness and harmony, the Navajo term implies everything a Navajo things is good...It expresses for the Navajo such concepts as the words beauty, perfection, harmony, goodness, normality, success, well-being, blessedness, ideal, order, do for us." (Holism in Navajo Language and Culture)

I wonder why the Navajo people wouldn't want to just use the original term because the English equivalent is such a pale shadow of the depth or real meaning that the original word has. I question why the native feminists wouldn't go a step further and just go back to the original and not worry about the word blessingway because next to the richness of the original it is so bland (again I am not a native so maybe my perspective is just completely not getting it) but maybe this is a question only the Native Feminists can answer.

My second question is this (and I think this is what Ironica was getting at when she was talking about trying to find stuff on google): Who are these native feminists? Everyone keeps saying that the Dineh people have asked us not to use the term blessingway but I can only find that the Native Femisists are the ones who requested this. Are these femenists Navajo? Where did they come from? Did they decide this at a huge convention? Who are they?

I also wonder if the Navajo nation has made a statement or request about this?

I don't ask these questions to be rude or to make you have to "prove" to me that your request is the right thing to do. I believe in respecting people, your post just made me rethink the issue and come up with some questions. If anyone knows the answer to these I would like to know. If I could get a hold of the Native Feminists I would ask them so if anyone has information on how I could contact them, please let me know too.


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

There was a thread about this awile back. I do use the term Blessingway and it is out of respect for those mothers, grandmothers, and women before me be them white like me, africans, native americans, what have you. When I think of a blessingway ceremony I think of other the women in my family and fellow mamas and mamas to be joining together in spirit, harmony, love and respect of the pregant women and child. Celebrating the growth within and the birth and life to come. It is not some glorified 'cool name' baby shower. It is not gifts but maybe a bead for the birth necklace or candles to be lit together when the labour begins. I have nothing but repsect for all cultures and in that I try and take many parts of all to make mine.


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

and these women are refering to themselves as feminists? or is that the term the person who reported this story used?

Because the term feminist is a word that started in another culture from theirs, in another language. Them using the term "feminist" is them using a word that is incredibly personal to many women everywhere. Some feminists are very vocal about how loosely the term feminist is used. Would we ever in turn contact these dineh women and ask them to please refer to themselves as "native women advocates" because the term feminist is really the term that describes the incredible strife and fight that european and american women have been fighting for equal womens rights? And that by using the term feminist they be weakening the overall meaning behind the term?

Im preggo and emotional and find this debate so very disheartening.

In our very society, women are being cut open by medical professional and railroaded into birthing flat on their backs. They are treated like they have imperfect bodies and that pregnancy is a disease that needs curing by a doctor.

Any movement of american women to try and identify with the amazing and powerful sacred energy behind womanhood, pregnancy and birth is right on. This inner attacking and arguing over the VERY WORD THEY USE is petty and trivial in the grand scheme of things.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *inchijen* 

Im preggo and emotional and find this debate so very disheartening.

In our very society, women are being cut open by medical professional and railroaded into birthing flat on their backs. They are treated like they have imperfect bodies and that pregnancy is a disease that needs curing by a doctor.

Any movement of american women to try and identify with the amazing and powerful sacred energy behind womanhood, pregnancy and birth is right on. This inner attacking and arguing over the VERY WORD THEY USE is petty and trivial in the grand scheme of things.

first, hugs mama. being pregnant can be so hard.
i can see where you are coming from with your feminist argument. however, when we are discussing peoples who have had their land, traditions, culture, language and actual members of their tribes ripped away, destroyed, suppressed etc...things get a bit different.
the native people's of this country in most cases had not a lot of choice in the matter when it came to them being "assimilated". they were forced to take on white american culture and language. if they openly refused, often they paid with their lives, or the lives of those they loved.so the fact that Dineh women may be using the term feminist is really beside the point. you can't flip it like that. not when it comes to aboriginal people who were colonized. they didn't chose to have white people come to their lands, destroy their way of life, rip apart their families, threaten death to anyone who spoke their language or practiced their spiritual beliefs.
however, a non native pregnant woman HAS a choice. no one is threatening her to use or not use a certain word rather than another (and these things really happened to natives) she can choose to respect the wishes of people who have gone through this in the very not so distant past. she can be inspired by the Blessingway (or any other tradition that is outside of her culture)to quote the footnote used in the OP: *"They suggested the term 'Mother Blessing' was a more appropriate term for a ceremony that was influenced, and respectful, of this tradition."* it seems to me that the Dineh are not upset that people find their spirituality inspiring and interesting...its more like they are asking you to use it to create your own tradition. and i think that is very reasonable. it may not be important in YOUR grand scheme of things, but to some people, this is the most important part of their spiritual tradition...one that they have probably had to struggle to keep alive and going. respectfully, i have to say that just because something doesn't seem important to you, doesn't mean it isn't important.
i agree that women creating more spiritual ways of celebrating their rites of passage into womanhood is a wonderful idea. i just asked that people reconsider using this term which is already so deeply involved in a lifelong ritual/ceremony done by the Dineh. you can choose to do whatever you feel best doing, of course.
good luck on your pregnancy mama...i hope that you have a wonderful and peaceful birth.


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

I understand everything that has happened, and I agree that it is disgusting what has been done to the natives. My great grandmother was Ojibwa and was adopted as a young teenager when her family was killed and their land taken. She was then forced to lie about her heritage by her irish immigrant adoptive parents out of the fear of what would happen if anyone knew.

It angers me to no end what happened to all the natives in this country. My family's ancestry is gone forever. My great grandmother did all she could to remember and pass on what she knew, but it was sketchy at 80 years of age.

I was all kinds of upset when I replied, bellymama and I am sorry if I came across ignorant to anything. I have been thinking of this thread all night, and I keep coming back to the fact that it really does hurt me to think that my actions could be offending any natives.

I am a long practicing earth worshipping pagan and I KNOW how much it stirs my pot to see pentacle necklaces worn as fashion statements in certain young pop subcultures. It doesnt compare in recent history, but I identify with feeling like something that has deep meaning and a lot of history is being treated like some trivial novelty so that when a pentacle is worn by pagan people it is assumed that it is a fashion statement.

I had a knee jerk reaction because the PC movement gets overwhelming at times, and I feel tends to lead us away from the issue at hand. But that is another discussion for another day.










Thanks for bringing this up, it has been a topic of discussion in this house all night and morning.

But what did you mean when you said that just because something isnt important to me, it may be to others? That is just not possible, ask my DH.

I am truly the authority on what is important and what is not, especially when I am hormonal and all worked up.









***that was just a joke to make fun of myself and my last post- my self righteousness is astounding at times***


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

good point with the pentacles...its very similar...things that have been persecuted in the past are now "trendy" so people use them incorrectly. to some 15 year old goth chick, a pentacle could just be a fun way to annoy her christian parents, or she may just think its neat...but to a pagan, this symbol has deep spiritual meaning.
i so didn't think you were ignorant, and i am sorry if i sounded that way. i just sometimes feel like the mainstream pop. has no clue what happened here in this country to the natives and so do my best to remind them because that is a history that must be remembered.going along with the pagan theme, the irish and scottish of europe were treated much like the natives here, and had so much of their spiritual/religious tradition absorbed into the christian/catholic tradition...which is funny to me, when i think of christians/catholics (of which i was raised) doing things they think are really christian but are soooo pagan. BUT this is a new era, and we have the ability to preserve some of these traditions of our ancestors as natives, so it can be frusterating when people just latch on to the parts they find neat.
but, culture, religion, language, all of these are not static. they do change, grow, fuse, absorb, combine with new things, and that is life. which is why i think the concept of a spiritual mother centered celebration is an awesome idea, and i plan on doing that for my next "baby shower". but because i am not dine, i will probably call it a mother blessing. i am very inspired by the concepts of the Dine Blessingway. i have been reading a lot about it ever since i heard about this issue and it is an amazing tradition...
we can be influenced, inspired etc. by traditions and cultures outside our own, but i think we have a responsibility to be respectful of the original tradition and culture that we are influenced and inspired by.
thanks for chatting with me about this in a nice way. its refreshing to have different view points but not be mean to eachother while we are discussing are opposing ideas...and then finding out that maybe we agree more than we realized.








peace mama!


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

That's interesting.

I wonder what the actual Navajo word is for "blessingway" (Hózhójí) is actually pronounced in Navajo.... because it certainly is _different_ from the English word and pronunciation "b-l-e-s-s-i-n-g-w-a-y" that suburban soccer moms and MDCers are using, so it's pretty rich for Navajo feminists to get "offended" by it.

It's not as if non-Navajo people are using the actual word or pantomiming the actual ritual.... that could be problematic for sure, but, really, trying to police an *English* word because some academics trace its use back to the Navajo tradition??? Seriously??

The words "blessing" and "way" are very common *English* words... the term "blessing" is obvious: a spiritual sanctification and best wishes, and "way" is a word used for journey, travel, life chapters, path, etc.

People need to chill out. There are plenty of things to educate people about; we don't need to be erroneous.

Trin.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 
That's interesting.

I wonder what the actual Navajo word is for "blessingway" (Hózhójí) is actually pronounced in Navajo.... because it certainly is _different_ from the English word and pronounciation "b-l-e-s-s-i-n-g-w-a-y" that suburban soccer moms and MDCers are using, so it's pretty rich for Navajo feminists to get "offended" by it.

People need to chill out.

Trin.

I think it's pretty "rich" and extremely offensive that anyone who has read this thread, and should therefore know a little about the history of the Dine would even think to suggest that they need to "chill out". Their language, their traditions, and their land were destroyed--and you're going to tell them to chill out because they're using an English word? Knowing that English is the language they were forced to adopt?

It's about respect, and that is the very least we should be able to offer.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

The entire point of my post is that "blessingway" is a loose TRANSLATION of the actual word used by the Navajo and that it is counter-productive to get upset about an English word as benign as "blessingway."

One of the worst things to ever happen to Native American people (and hundreds of other cultures throughout human history) is the loss of their LANGUAGE.

This is not a word in their language. This is not mimicking or demeaning their actual culture, (a bunch of WASP people covering themselves in Eagle feathers and waving tomahawks) or their actual language.....

This is an ENGLISH word used by lots of different people who have probably never heard about such a thing as a Hózhójí, therefore, making an issue about something so remote and harmless really ticks me off when actual languages and actual cultures are dying within our own generation.

I'm not going to trot-out my bloodlines or my background, because I think it's weird and inappropriate much of the time, but suffice to say that I know full well how important language is to culture in general (and how many we are losing globally) and how set-upon Native Americans are in North America specifically..... tilting at windmills such as this does nothing to help preserve these languages and cultures or to help groups live well with each other... all it does is make those "on the fence" frustrated and angry, feeling that they "can't say anything or do anything right" without "offending" someone.

The best we all can do is to judge each other by our own standards. Don't treat people as if they are lesser _or greater_ than yourself just because they are of a certain race or class.

I see some suburban liberals doing this all of the time, thinking that they are being really friendly and inclusive.... but really, they are embarrassing the person they are speaking (down) to. Example: don't think that Native Americans are more "in touch" with nature or Mother Earth, or are more "spiritual" just because they are Native. I've seen this happen many times, and it's painful to watch (wow, so, what do you feel like, when you see a whale/eagle/tree/rock/fire?? How fascinating!!! I have a dream-catcher in my minivan!) Just be rational and assume they wish to be treated like any other person, and, if you like, find out what makes them tick as an _individual_.... that's equitable and fair and the best compliment we can pay to one and other.

Playing-out the "I'm more tolerant than you are" or "I'm more offended than you are" routine gets us exactly nowhere.

Trin.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Wow. Lots of nasty little assumptions for a single post. Since I don't have a fluorescent pink dream catcher in my minivan and I've never had a conversation with a Native American about whales or fire, but have actually discussed the term "blessingway" and why it feels disrespectful for white women to use it, I think I'll go with that, thanks. Somehow it feels more respectful to honor someone's request than to tell them they need to chill out. Or to try to explaining that I'm disrespecting their request because I respect them so darn much.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
Wow. Lots of nasty little assumptions for a single post. Since I don't have a fluorescent pink dream catcher in my minivan and I've never had a conversation with a Native American about whales or fire, but have actually discussed the term "blessingway" and why it feels disrespectful for white women to use it, I think I'll go with that, thanks. Somehow it feels more respectful to honor someone's request than to tell them they need to chill out. *Or to try to explaining that I'm disrespecting their request because I respect them so darn much.*

thanks missy.
the quote i bolded is awesome. this is exactly how to sum it up.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 

I see some suburban liberals doing this all of the time, thinking that they are being really friendly and inclusive.... but really, they are embarrassing the person they are speaking (down) to.
Trin.


this is exactly why i think they shouldn't be using the term blessingway. its as silly and embarrasing as seeing a dreamcatcher in the car or hearing them babble about their connection with mother earth. get your own traditions. if the ones your culture has aren't working for you, create your own new ones, but don't appropriate ones that already exist. it is exactly that: "embarrasing".


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
Wow. Lots of nasty little assumptions for a single post. Since I don't have a fluorescent pink dream catcher in my minivan and I've never had a conversation with a Native American about whales or fire, but have actually discussed the term "blessingway" and why it feels disrespectful for white women to use it, I think I'll go with that, thanks. *Somehow it feels more respectful to honor someone's request than to tell them they need to chill out.* Or to try to explaining that I'm disrespecting their request because I respect them so darn much.









:


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

I actually wasn't addressing you directly, Missy, so I made no assumptions about you as a person, or about your owning of a dreamcatcher or not.

I stand by what I said, when taken in its full context.

I'm sure there are plently of Native Americans and perhaps even some Navajo members who have no problem with the English term *Blessingway* being used by people of other colours and backgrounds, as long as the word Hózhójí is not being used and as long as it is being treated with respect.

I prefer to take people as individuals and I think that policing well-meaning people using terminology this innocent is counter-productive. It's a baby shower with a blessing.... what can be more wholesome?

There are terms (Washington Redskins comes to mind) and methods being used today (mono-lingual public schools in remote native communities) that are demeaning to American Indian cultures, or at least letting them slip away. Those are the bigger battles and they need attention.

Trin.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

i have been researching this issue lately because so many of you say that you don't really take it seriously with out hearing from the Dine themselves. i am currently in the middle of a correspondence with some Dine women on a discussion board for natives, who have shared with me, and given me permission to share their opinions with you. and their opinion is that they would really rather the term Mother Blessing be used. they can't understand why it would be difficult to see where they are coming from... i have also written a letter to the Navajo Nation and several other people who would be knowledgable on this topic to find out how they feel about it. as soon as i hear from them, i will come and share with you, with their permission if they grant it, how they feel.
i am thinking of maybe writing an essay or an article on this topic, because it is so "word of mouth" and so many women on this thread and other blessingway threads like this, have said that because there is no "concrete" evidence saying that this is offensive and disrespectful, then it must not be.
if i can find enough Dine women to share with me, and if the Navajo Library and Nation will share with me, then i will.


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## gingerbane (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
Wow. Lots of nasty little assumptions for a single post. Since I don't have a fluorescent pink dream catcher in my minivan and I've never had a conversation with a Native American about whales or fire, but have actually discussed the term "blessingway" a*nd why it feels disrespectful for white women to use it*, I think I'll go with that, thanks. Somehow it feels more respectful to honor someone's request than to tell them they need to chill out. Or to try to explaining that I'm disrespecting their request because I respect them so darn much.

And would it feel disrespectful for black women to use it, or how about blue women, red women, yellow women, brown women. The first time this happened in this whole post I pm'd the person and hoped it wouldn't happen again but it has. Is it okay to use the term red women or yellow women? These are terms that have been used in the past. Is it okay to assume that it is WHITE women disrespecting you or that only WHITE women hold an opinion that doesn't align with yours? I mean come on. So may people who have replied to this post have said they prefer to err on the side of respect rather than "accidentally" disrespecting anyone. I find people's use of the word "white [women/people/etc]" as a means of stating an assumption with a negative connotation completely disrespectful. KWIM

BTW - I am not agreeing or disagreeing or commenting on anything at all about your last post. Only expressing my dismay at how one small piece of it was worded.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gingerbane* 
And would it feel disrespectful for black women to use it, or how about blue women, red women, yellow women, brown women. The first time this happened in this whole post I pm'd the person and hoped it wouldn't happen again but it has. Is it okay to use the term red women or yellow women? These are terms that have been used in the past. Is it okay to assume that it is WHITE women disrespecting you or that only WHITE women hold an opinion that doesn't align with yours? I mean come on. So may people who have replied to this post have said they prefer to err on the side of respect rather than "accidentally" disrespecting anyone. I find people's use of the word "white [women/people/etc]" as a means of stating an assumption with a negative connotation completely disrespectful. KWIM

BTW - I am not agreeing or disagreeing or commenting on anything at all about your last post. Only expressing my dismay at how one small piece of it was worded.









:







Sorry, but I _am_ white. I can only speak for myself. It does make sense, though--given that it was whites who stole their land and destroyed their language and traditions--that that it _would_ be most offensive when white women appropriate any sacred traditions that remain.

Blue women? Did you just toss "blue women" up in there? With red and yellow and then ask if it was okay to still use red and yellow? And then accused me of being disrespectful? Who, then, are blue women?


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 







:







Sorry, but I _am_ white. I can only speak for myself. It does make sense, though--given that it was whites who stole their land and destroyed their language and traditions--that that it _would_ be most offensive when white women appropriate any sacred traditions that remain.

Blue women? Did you just toss "blue women" up in there? With red and yellow and then ask if it was okay to still use red and yellow? And then accused me of being disrespectful? Who, then, are blue women?

i agree that Missy was simply speaking for herself...and i agree that it is somehow more offensive when white people take the cultures of the people's that they colonized (who are usually of darker skin color) and use them.
but...







there are blue people

Quote:

The Tuareg are sometimes called the "Blue People" because the indigo pigment in the cloth of their traditional robes and turbans stained the wearer's skin dark blue. Today, the traditional indigo turban is still preferred for celebrations, and generally Tuaregs wear clothing and turbans in a variety of colors.
but i doubt that was what the pp meant









i believe that the main issue however is not _necessarily_ white people doing it, just non-dine doing it. even another native from a different tribe doing that would be weird, unless invited to participate by the Dine.


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## gingerbane (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 

i believe that the main issue however is not _necessarily_ white people doing it, just non-dine doing it. even another native from a different tribe doing that would be weird, unless invited to participate by the Dine.

Okay, yes, this is a great way of stating your main point.

I just get so sick of dividing people into colors. I don't know what it accomplishes. I've rarely seen a person who I've though of as being "white." They're just not that color.

I remember someone once tried to tell DH's sweet autistic brother - then 10 or 11 years old - something about his "blackness." DH's brother just didn't understand. He responded with a quizical look and said "I'm not black."







He doesn't understand that in _this_ world he is put into that box.

It just seems like if we keep putting people into boxes, if we keep separating ourselves from one another, things will never change.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

When color has no impact on my children's rights and opportunities, _then_ it will no longer matter. Until then, it is too simplistic to say that we just need to stop putting people in boxes.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
When color has no impact on my children's rights and opportunities, _then_ it will no longer matter. Until then, it is too simplistic to say that we just need to stop putting people in boxes.

i agree missy.


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## gingerbane (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
When color has no impact on my children's rights and opportunities, _then_ it will no longer matter. Until then, it is too simplistic to say that we just need to stop putting people in boxes.

This is just circular thinking. If _they/this_ change(s) then I'll change, but I'll be damned if _I'm_ going to change first.

I mean I do understand your thinking because in American society color is used as such a powerful tool (especially by the media imo) to control people's thoughts, reactions, actions, etc. And by being the first one to take a step in the right direction you would be taking a step of faith that others would follow that eventually things would change. I can understand not wanting to do that because in a way it makes one feel powerless but you know, it makes me feel powerful. It makes me feel like I don't have to act, react, or think about something a certain way because my brain has been trained to "box" things in that way.

Color will have no impact on my child's rights and opportunities because _I_ will not let it. I will not _recognize_ it to have that power over our lives. I will not give society or the media or anyone thinking in "boxes" that power over me or my children's lives. It won't be because the whole world will have changed in the next few months into a place where things like this no longer matter. It will be because I have decided not to let the world have that power over me and I will not live like that. I will strive to make my world free of such stupid and petty judgements whether anyone else does or not and I will have faith that others will also follow in that direction and that eventually things will change.

But hey, if you want to live in a world where you, your kids, your grandkids are put in boxes, by all means patiently wait for everything else around you to change before you yourself do something as *simplistic* as not putting people in boxes.


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## beansmama (Aug 2, 2007)

1


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gingerbane* 
Color will have no impact on my child's rights and opportunities because _I_ will not let it. I will not _recognize_ it to have that power over our lives. I will not give society or the media or anyone thinking in "boxes" that power over me or my children's lives. It won't be because the whole world will have changed in the next few months into a place where things like this no longer matter. It will be because I have decided not to let the world have that power over me and I will not live like that. I will strive to make my world free of such stupid and petty judgements whether anyone else does or not and I will have faith that others will also follow in that direction and that eventually things will change.

I'm glad that works for you. Unfortunately, no one had explained to my husband when he graduated from college into the same career field that I did, supposedly an open field, especially for men with his transcripts and resume, that he should have just had the power to ignore those human resource directors that sent him on interview after interview only to lie and tell him he wasn't qualified after the people that interview him had called personnel and asked to hire him. I wish I had explained that to him after I watched the same damn thing happen for two very long years, to him, and to many of our friends. I wish he realized the power he held over the police officers who have pulled him over for DWB.

We're not "patiently waiting for change"; we work constantly to affect change. However, ignoring the role that race plays is dangerous and self-defeating.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Missy said:


> I'm glad that works for you. Unfortunately, no one had explained to my husband when he graduated from college into the same career field that I did, supposedly an open field, especially for men with his transcripts and resume, that he should have just had the power to ignore those human resource directors that sent him on interview after interview only to lie and tell him he wasn't qualified after the people that interview him had called personnel and asked to hire him. I wish I had explained that to him after I watched the same damn thing happen for two very long years, to him, and to many of our friends. I wish he realized the power he held over the police officers who have pulled him over for DWB.
> 
> *We're not "patiently waiting for change"; we work constantly to affect change. However, ignoring the role that race plays is dangerous and self-defeating.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

okay, if anybody else tries to say that the blessingway that non-dine are doing isn't influenced by the Dine's sacred tradition, please look at these websites
http://www.mother-care.ca/blessing.htm

http://www.naturaltouchdoula.com/blessingway.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessingway

http://thebirthsource.homestead.com/blessingway.html

dude...it's not even arguable that people are ripping off the Dine. period. end of story. and that ain't right.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

also, i have been communicating with a Dine Medicine Woman for the last week or so, and i have shared with her the link to this thread and also the many website's describing exactly what the "new blessingway" entails. she has given me permission to share this with you:

Quote:

*Quote:
I am a Dine' Medicine Woman who is infuriated by what I have heard! These women have NO idea what they are doing! The Blessing Way is an ancient Ritual that, yes is used to welcome children into the world, but by far, that is NOT it's only use, but just one of many of it's functions. I am not permitted to explain the many times we use Blessing way in ritual, but some of the rituals would be surprising for those not of the Dine'. Anyone not of the Dine' people should not be using our Sacred rituals bastardized in such a way for their own idealized mentality - it is more dangerous then they could possibly realize. We have certain "spiritual safeguards" on protecting our Old Ways & what is misused or misappropriated would have dire consequences for those who try to take what is sacred to us & is not of their people, but of the Dine'. To place this upon innocent babies is an anathema With much thanks, Firewolf Bizahaloni Nelso*

she also gave me her phone number and said she would be happy to discuss this in a deeper way with anyone who needed more information, so if anyone wants to talk to her, pm me.

*i added this post to my OP so that any new poster's would see this info right off the bat.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Bellymama-
Thank you so much for the research and effort you have put into this thread. I was particularly thrilled to see the information you recieved directly from Firewolf Bizahaloni Nelso. I am thankful that she is willing to open herself up personally on this subject, and I hope the information will help people have a deeper understanding of what you have been trying to impress upon us.


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## Skim (Jan 2, 2004)

bellymama, I just have to say that I've procrastinated coming to read this thread and I am SO SORRY I did not make it here earlier so I could give you mad props for being peaceful and gentle and patient with so many people who are determined to deny the real pain and hurt of using all or part of native sacred ritual for any non-dineh new mom.

It is sickening to me that so many mamas on MDC are unable to support the native mamas and spiritual leaders who have asked them to see the bigger human picture and not the linear, logical and genocidal one of cultural entitlement.

Thank you for allowing the rest of us to grow in this way.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

If cultures and peoples lived together harmoniously, would appropriation still be an issue? It seems to me that it is because we have separated ourselves (out of arrogance, the desire to control, fear, self-protection, etc.) that we see each other as "other", so that when I recognize something universal in that which you have manifested first, it is regarded as stealing and disrespectful for me to acknowledge it as applicable to me as well. The sad, ironic thing is that it is the people who aren't a threat who are the ones sensitive enough to abide by such requests, which are really only necessary because _others_ are separatist in spirit.

Using the term while innocently regarding it as a descriptive term for a beautiful act is one thing, and using it while knowing others regard you as a thief and racist is anther entirely. It casts a pall over whatever semantic appropriateness and beauty the term would otherwise hold. So I don't use it. But I still don't understand why it is that the Dine' own the term "blessing way". Bear with me here please -- this is not, for me, about "us vs. them". It's not about a sense of cultural or racial entitlement. What I am perceiving is that The Way is a universal spiritual notion, as is the notion of a blessing. If their spiritual ground is real and true, they did not create the bringing together of these things. They were open to it and it came through them and manifested with their cultural coloring. Now, for me to take on cultural coloring that doesn't belong to me would be embarrassing, and in some cases disrespectful, yes. But they (a few or most or all, I don't know, but _some_body who I'll refer to as "they", for convenience,) are trying to claim ownership to something that they do not in fact own. The Dine' recognized it and named it, and interpreted it through their culture. I can recognize it through their manifestation of it, interpret it with my own cultural coloring, _and_ the descriptive term that they have used is semantically just as appropriate.

It just makes me sad that we live in a world where such a thing would even be an issue.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
If cultures and peoples lived together harmoniously, would appropriation still be an issue? It seems to me that it is because we have separated ourselves (out of arrogance, the desire to control, fear, self-protection, etc.) that we see each other as "other", so that when I recognize something universal in that which you have manifested first, it is regarded as stealing and disrespectful for me to acknowledge it as applicable to me as well. The sad, ironic thing is that it is the people who aren't a threat who are the ones sensitive enough to abide by such requests, which are really only necessary because _others_ are separatist in spirit.

Using the term while innocently regarding it as a descriptive term for a beautiful act is one thing, and using it while knowing others regard you as a thief and racist is anther entirely. It casts a pall over whatever semantic appropriateness and beauty the term would otherwise hold. So I don't use it. But I still don't understand why it is that the Dine' own the term "blessing way". Bear with me here please -- this is not, for me, about "us vs. them". It's not about a sense of cultural or racial entitlement. What I am perceiving is that The Way is a universal spiritual notion, as is the notion of a blessing. If their spiritual ground is real and true, they did not create the bringing together of these things. They were open to it and it came through them and manifested with their cultural coloring. Now, for me to take on cultural coloring that doesn't belong to me would be embarrassing, and in some cases disrespectful, yes. But they (a few or most or all, I don't know, but _some_body who I'll refer to as "they", for convenience,) are trying to claim ownership to something that they do not in fact own. The Dine' recognized it and named it, and interpreted it through their culture. I can recognize it through their manifestation of it, interpret it with my own cultural coloring, _and_ the descriptive term that they have used is semantically just as appropriate.

It just makes me sad that we live in a world where such a thing would even be an issue.

I can see what you are trying to say, but words have power. And I think that ignoring the fact that the word is part of the Dine's sacred ceremony ignores that power. I guess if people don't recognize that there really is powerful things at work during this ceremony(don't know if magic would be the correct term)they don't recognize the danger of appropriating the word. But we have been told from the mouth of someone who understands and practices this that it can be dangerous, as well as people discribing why it's disrespectful to the Dine.

For me, it comes down to trusting what the people who are directly involved and affected by using the term Blessingway for something besides the Dine sacred ceremony have to say. I don't really understand why people would choose to ignore or put their own spin on it when there are so many other appropriate words to use, words that you can imbue with your own traditions and ceremony.


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## Skim (Jan 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
If cultures and peoples lived together harmoniously, would appropriation still be an issue? It seems to me that it is because we have separated ourselves (out of arrogance, the desire to control, fear, self-protection, etc.) that we see each other as "other", so that when I recognize something universal in that which you have manifested first, it is regarded as stealing and disrespectful for me to acknowledge it as applicable to me as well. The sad, ironic thing is that it is the people who aren't a threat who are the ones sensitive enough to abide by such requests, which are really only necessary because _others_ are separatist in spirit.

Using the term while innocently regarding it as a descriptive term for a beautiful act is one thing, and using it while knowing others regard you as a thief and racist is anther entirely. It casts a pall over whatever semantic appropriateness and beauty the term would otherwise hold. So I don't use it. But I still don't understand why it is that the Dine' own the term "blessing way". Bear with me here please -- this is not, for me, about "us vs. them". It's not about a sense of cultural or racial entitlement. What I am perceiving is that The Way is a universal spiritual notion, as is the notion of a blessing. If their spiritual ground is real and true, they did not create the bringing together of these things. They were open to it and it came through them and manifested with their cultural coloring. Now, for me to take on cultural coloring that doesn't belong to me would be embarrassing, and in some cases disrespectful, yes. But they (a few or most or all, I don't know, but _some_body who I'll refer to as "they", for convenience,) are trying to claim ownership to something that they do not in fact own. The Dine' recognized it and named it, and interpreted it through their culture. I can recognize it through their manifestation of it, interpret it with my own cultural coloring, _and_ the descriptive term that they have used is semantically just as appropriate.

It just makes me sad that we live in a world where such a thing would even be an issue.

I agree with much of your perspective. Isn't it great that many cultures have recognized the great upheaval of birth and labor and newness? This is one of my favorite times for ritual.

However. This from your post is interesting to me:

"It seems to me that it is because we have separated ourselves (out of arrogance, the desire to control, fear, self-protection, etc.) that we see each other as "other", so that when I recognize something universal in that which you have manifested first, it is regarded as stealing and disrespectful for me to acknowledge it as applicable to me as well. The sad, ironic thing is that it is the people who aren't a threat who are the ones sensitive enough to abide by such requests, which are really only necessary because _others_ are separatist in spirit. "

Deciding that because one hadn't heard of such a thing before one heard of the appropriated-from-the-dine term "blessingway", and then making your own culturally-approprate ritual and calling it the same thing is not harmonious. In the context of colonization and genocide - two very real and very current penomena in the US - this otherwise well-meaning process is an expresion of power-over, not merely and issue of "semantics". And frankly, when I hear someone [usually from a dominant and/or privileged group] complain of how we are separated from each other because one or more non-dominant groups provide us with a better, more respectful context in which to practice our own sacred ceremonies, I just become impatient.

I do understand that you are really questioning ownership of a word. But unwillingness to see how the word is also powerful and part of a group's cultural expression is part of the problem of white supremacy, and something which I try to work hard to work against. This is the challenge to non-native mamas - to continue to find sacred expressions of power in our own contexts, neither exclusive nor oppressive, and to do so with as much respect as possible. Because this is the only way I see true harmony flourishing.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
It just makes me sad that we live in a world where such a thing would even be an issue.

it makes me sad too. sad that people can't understand why a people who have been abused, decieved, and persecuted might be a wee bit protective of the traditions they have managed to salvage in the face of such adversity.

perhaps it's difficult to understand because today, our lives are so secularized, that we see "religion" and "sacred space and time" as something you do and then you go on about your way until next time. The Dine' see "religion" differently

Quote:

There is no word in the Navajo language for what we refer to as "religion," defined by Webster's Dictionary as "man's expression of his acknowledgment of the divine." The reason why this word does not exist in their language is simple. their way of expressing acknowledgment of the divine is a way of living. Traditional Navajo religion is not something that can be abstracted from or examined apart from traditional life in general. When traditional life is dissected by Western methods of categorization usually only the rituals and ceremonies are labeled 'religion.' These moments of sacred time, however, are but portion of the all-encompassing world view and philosophy of life that constitute the Navajo idea of 'religion.' *The rituals and ceremonies carried out by traditional people are such an integral part of their daily routine that they themselves describe their religion as life itself.* Even today, in these modern times, there are many Navajo people who still live in accordance with the traditional religious teachings. This is particularly true for those people living on the "disputed lands" of Black Mesa. These people, who live without many of the conveniences we take for granted (i.e. running water, electricity, paved roads) continue to survive in the harsh desert climate by following the teachings their ancestors have passed down from time immemorial. These teachings, the world view that emerges from them, the ceremonials, and living according to teachings are all what they consider to be 'religion." The traditional Navajo religion, like all religions, provides meaning and ascribes value to the lives its adherents. It is their religious teachings that have enabled them to survive in the arid desert land and will, if allowed, will be their path into the future. Their religious obligations to the earth and to their family and community is their purpose of life. All of these things that are important to them spiral back to the land itself. The land is the center of their orientation in experience and the base of their sense of reality and identify. To separate them from it would cause them to lose contact with all that is sacred and holy to them. To force people to live such a life or meaninglessness is religious persecution and a condemnation to a slow death, for believing in and practicing their religion is living. When we recognize the religious persecution is, by definition, the infliction of pain and suffering on a group of people because of their religious beliefs, then there is no doubt that forced relocation is indeed this.

now, let me clarify first that i think that it is a fantastic idea for women to celebrate the sacredness of their transformation from maiden to mother, the holiness of their being able to create and sustain life in their womb, and their connection to creation in this way. i see no reason why a woman shouldn't celebrate this...my issue is not with creating new and better traditions in a new world. my issue is with the lack of understanding of the tradition that they are flat out taking from...the medicine woman i spoke with was actually _concerned_ for the safety of the women and babies involved in this activity...because her traditions are real to her, they are serious...they aren't just trendy or fun or psuedo-spiritual...they are real. and if you chuckle to yourself at this moment and think "oh how silly...nothing bad would happen if i did a Blessingway..." *then that proves that you shouldn't be borrowing ANYTHING from that tradition, because you don't think it is real.* v


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Skim* 
And frankly, when I hear someone [usually from a dominant and/or privileged group] complain of how we are separated from each other because one or more non-dominant groups provide us with a better, more respectful context in which to practice our own sacred ceremonies, I just become impatient.

Just to clarify -- I wasn't saying that. I'm not sure how you're getting that out of what I said. I was just musing that in a world in which there weren't these hierarchies of power and perceived value among peoples, that it wouldn't be considered so offensive. Or not necessarily, depending I suppose on how it was actually used by the people taking it on. Perhaps that's wrong, but what I'm perceiving is that a large part of the reason why it's offensive is that they are a marginalized, oppressed people, and it is (as they see it) the oppressor group that is appropriating the term.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama*
my issue is with the lack of understanding of the tradition that they are flat out taking from...the medicine woman i spoke with was actually concerned for the safety of the women and babies involved in this activity...because her traditions are real to her, they are serious...they aren't just trendy or fun or psuedo-spiritual...they are real. and if you chuckle to yourself at this moment and think "oh how silly...nothing bad would happen if i did a Blessingway..."

Wait a minute. The issue -- I thought -- is that non-Diné women are appropriating a Diné-coined term for a non-Diné event. They are not attempting a Hózhójí ceremony, so how exactly would they be in danger -- unless the term "blessingway" is considered synonymous with the Hózhójí ceremony itself?


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

OK, I'm reading this from an outsiders point of view: I'm not American, and to the best of my knowledge I have yet to meet a Native American: but I don't get this.

The Baby Shower is a uniquely American tradition. I haven't heard of this elsewhere in the world. It's something that the women of this new nation created to celebrate their communities and their lives as women, bearing children, raising the next generation and bringing gifts to the new mother as a thanksoffering for the blessings in their own lives: right? From an outsiders point of view, this sounds amazing: a little on the pink and fluffy side, yeah, but sometimes fluffy pink stuff is good. WHY would anyone feel the need for an alternative word? Why is the tradition that your mothers and grandmothers created for you not good enough? What is wrong with this rite of passage? WHY is this not enough?
As a pagan who celebrates Halloween as a religious festival, reading the Halloween threads here was at least, disturbing. Generally, it was insulting and demeaning, and yes, I feel that the lack of integrity shown in the "modern" Halloween puts children and families in danger. I can understand why the Dine woman showed concern; by using this term in place of the words of your own culture, you give away your own power, your own integrity, your own strength and replace it with what, exactly? You leave the gateway open for darkness and negativity to enter in.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
Wait a minute. The issue -- I thought -- is that non-Diné women are appropriating a Diné-coined term for a non-Diné event. They are not attempting a Hózhójí ceremony, so how exactly would they be in danger -- unless the term "blessingway" is considered synonymous with the Hózhójí ceremony itself?

"new-age blessingways" for lack of a better term, ARE directly referencing the aspects of the Hózhójí that are open to public knowledge...therefore it is, as the medicine woman said: "a bastardization"...it's not two unrelated things, as people keep trying to say. look up ANY new age blessingway website or books and it will directly reference the Hózhójí. yes, i am aware that it isn't REALLY a Hózhójí...no non-DIne' really knows the details of what happens in that ceremony. but SOME aspects have been revealed, and they are being appropriated....
so while the new age blessingways are not Hózhójí, they ARE directly unfluenced and related to what little knowledge that we, as non-Dine', have of this ceremony. both of these things are issues.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
OK, I'm reading this from an outsiders point of view: I'm not American, and to the best of my knowledge I have yet to meet a Native American: but I don't get this.

The Baby Shower is a uniquely American tradition. I haven't heard of this elsewhere in the world. It's something that the women of this new nation created to celebrate their communities and their lives as women, bearing children, raising the next generation and bringing gifts to the new mother as a thanksoffering for the blessings in their own lives: right? From an outsiders point of view, this sounds amazing: a little on the pink and fluffy side, yeah, but sometimes fluffy pink stuff is good. *WHY would anyone feel the need for an alternative word? Why is the tradition that your mothers and grandmothers created for you not good enough? What is wrong with this rite of passage? WHY is this not enough?*As a pagan who celebrates Halloween as a religious festival, reading the Halloween threads here was at least, disturbing. Generally, it was insulting and demeaning, and yes, I feel that the lack of integrity shown in the "modern" Halloween puts children and families in danger. I can understand why the Dine woman showed concern; by using this term in place of the words of your own culture, you give away your own power, your own integrity, your own strength and replace it with what, exactly? You leave the gateway open for darkness and negativity to enter in.

great post!!!


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

http://www.manataka.org/page23.html
check out this article.very interesting.

Quote:

Bates says, "Cool Indian Stuff" became popular as pseudo-Indian groups sprang up in the late 1970's talking about the environment and practicing altered versions of American Indian ceremonies.
also a little history on why NA's might be so protective of their traditions and ceremonies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...us_Freedom_Act


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:

Over the years the disrespect and utter disregard shown American Indian Religious practices has been tantamount to a contempt of Inidan rights and feelings. Moreover the society of today has little or no understanding of native peoples and their cultural ties.....and the ensuing prying into Indian Ceremonies currently among New Age Practioners....in our minds, these attitudes are not unlike past grave robbing, artifact stealing and other forms of cultural theft.
www.neaseno.org/ancestors.htm


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

even dear old Mothering mag....

http://www.mothering.com/articles/pr...blessings.html

Quote:

The blessingway is reputed to derive from a Navajo ceremony honoring the pregnant woman and preparing her for birth

i FINALLY found one that mentioned that the Dine' disaprove!
http://pregnancy.about.com/cs/blessi.../aa102202a.htm

Quote:

This is actually a Navajo term. Many people now use this term to mean a celebration of pregnancy and motherhood. The Navajo people actually do not approve of its use in this form, so many other use the term Mother Blessing or something similar


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Just for the record, I don't use the term blessingway, and wouldn't use the term blessingway.

I am just curious for more explanation of the danger element. First brought up in the quote from the Dine woman, and now this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
As a pagan who celebrates Halloween as a religious festival, reading the Halloween threads here was at least, disturbing. Generally, it was insulting and demeaning, and yes, I feel that the lack of integrity shown in the "modern" Halloween puts children and families in danger. I can understand why the Dine woman showed concern; by using this term in place of the words of your own culture, you give away your own power, your own integrity, your own strength and replace it with what, exactly? *You leave the gateway open for darkness and negativity to enter in.*

What does this mean? What danger? And what is this "hole" or "gateway" that is left open for darkness to enter. What does this mean?

It sounds like if you wander from your culture, even a little bit (in this case these spirits, for lack of a better word, were born on the same land) you are leaving a hole open in which danger might enter through? How do you decide what is your culture? Is it where you were born? Who raised you? Your DNA? What if you don't know which culture is "yours", are you then a walking target for evil?

I'm totally confused.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

i will ask Firewolf about this and see if she can explain it. i don't want to speak for her. i'll get back to you.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Quote:

Using the term while innocently regarding it as a descriptive term for a beautiful act is one thing, and using it while knowing others regard you as a thief and racist is anther entirely. It casts a pall over whatever semantic appropriateness and beauty the term would otherwise hold. So I don't use it. But I still don't understand why it is that the Dine' own the term "blessing way". Bear with me here please -- this is not, for me, about "us vs. them". It's not about a sense of cultural or racial entitlement. What I am perceiving is that The Way is a universal spiritual notion, as is the notion of a blessing. If their spiritual ground is real and true, they did not create the bringing together of these things. They were open to it and it came through them and manifested with their cultural coloring. Now, for me to take on cultural coloring that doesn't belong to me would be embarrassing, and in some cases disrespectful, yes. But they (a few or most or all, I don't know, but somebody who I'll refer to as "they", for convenience,) are trying to claim ownership to something that they do not in fact own. The Dine' recognized it and named it, and interpreted it through their culture. I can recognize it through their manifestation of it, interpret it with my own cultural coloring, and the descriptive term that they have used is semantically just as appropriate.
I totally agree.

Until now, I had never heard of the "official" term Blessingway.

But I am planning on holding a ceremony and ritual that will involve a lot of Earth-centred symbols, prayers and actions. It could easily be described _in English_ as a "blessing-way" and I would not be referring to anyone else's cultural practises, nor infringing on them. I would never call it a "Hózhójí" and knowingly ape some of the motions or words because that is not my language or my culture.... and I think that's really silly and weird.

However my own practises won't have any less meaning to me or less of an "effect" in the grand spiritual scheme of things just because some of them might coincidentally over-lap with Navajo methods, or if I had referred to it as a blessingway.

Maybe a Red Herring, but:

What if a non-Navajo woman had been adopted by a Navajo couple? Could she hold a Hózhójí then? Or, is this being perceived as a racial thing? If that's the case, then, all of the white Europeans who fervently believe in Christ are really just kidding themselves, because they are not Semites, and Christianity was something that was either forced upon their ancestors or adopted at a later date.

As far as the magical words go..... If we want to go so far as to say that words, actual _words_ have practical and concrete meaning resulting in consequences, (example: speaking to my child in Latin about a "God King" and my child instantly imagining Jupiter in the minds eye while smelling olives) then the actual word *Hózhójí* would be the one to carry the "power" and not the English term Blessingway.

Trin.


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

First of all: BellyMama you should write an article for Mothering.com (Heck, you're already bustin' your butt to research it







)

I say this because I got the term "Blessingway" from TWO articles on this very site: "Charlotte's Web" and "Beads and Blessings" under Pregnancy under the Birth Preperation link. (I'd go get the actual links but I keep getting kicked out and I'm scared to venture).

I was aware that the term came from natives (due to some very minor research) and I just thought that it was a beautiful expression of the journey that is conception to birth. I did not think it would be hurtful because as a UU I often learn about the beliefs of other cultures and use those teachings to further my own spiritual path. I really thought of it as an homage to a dignified and sacred people.

Of course the intent is meaningless if something really offends someone.

I will not be calling my UN-babyshower (I am not having a consumer driven streamer laden monstrosity...I actually find it offensive to compare a spiritually driven gathering to those) by the term.

However I don't really like Mother Blessing or Birth Blessing (they just don't flow for me







) PM me if you have any other suggestions till then I'll call it Preggo: the Gathering.


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## gingerbane (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by flapjack
"OK, I'm reading this from an outsiders point of view: I'm not American, and to the best of my knowledge I have yet to meet a Native American: but I don't get this.

The Baby Shower is a uniquely American tradition. I haven't heard of this elsewhere in the world. It's something that the women of this new nation created to celebrate their communities and their lives as women, bearing children, raising the next generation and bringing gifts to the new mother as a thanksoffering for the blessings in their own lives: right? From an outsiders point of view, this sounds amazing: a little on the pink and fluffy side, yeah, but sometimes fluffy pink stuff is good. *WHY would anyone feel the need for an alternative word? Why is the tradition that your mothers and grandmothers created for you not good enough? What is wrong with this rite of passage? WHY is this not enough?*As a pagan who celebrates Halloween as a religious festival, reading the Halloween threads here was at least, disturbing. Generally, it was insulting and demeaning, and yes, I feel that the lack of integrity shown in the "modern" Halloween puts children and families in danger. I can understand why the Dine woman showed concern; by using this term in place of the words of your own culture, you give away your own power, your own integrity, your own strength and replace it with what, exactly? You leave the gateway open for darkness and negativity to enter in."
_______

Originally posted by Bellymama in reference to above posts (Bold is hers not mine)

"great post!!!"
__________________________________________________ _____________________

Bellymama - I think it's interesting that you lauded Flapjacks posts about why "anyone would feel the need for an alternate word" and yet it seems that this is one of the core issues of the debate - the *alternate* word that the Dineh now use instead of the one that their grandmothers gifted them with. I think it goes both ways. It's an *alternate* word on either side, Dineh or not.


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## gingerbane (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
*"new-age blessingways" for lack of a better term, ARE directly referencing the aspects of the Hózhójí that are open to public knowledge...therefore it is, as the medicine woman said: "a bastardization"*...it's not two unrelated things, as people keep trying to say. look up ANY new age blessingway website or books and it will directly reference the Hózhójí. yes, i am aware that it isn't REALLY a Hózhójí...no non-DIne' really knows the details of what happens in that ceremony. but SOME aspects have been revealed, and they are being appropriated....
so while the new age blessingways are not Hózhójí, they ARE directly unfluenced and related to what little knowledge that we, as non-Dine', have of this ceremony. both of these things are issues.

But if the whole thing and not just the use of the word blessingway is a bastardization, as this posts seems to say, why would not using the word but doing the same thing make it less of a bastardization? So is the problem that the word or the event is influenced by Navajo tradition. Because if people are still doing the same things and just changing the word to something like motherblessing it's _still_ influenced by the original Navajo Hózhójí ceremony. Right?


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Bumping...

Bellymama, Flapjack, anyone?

Has anyone been able to get an answer to the questions I asked a few posts upthread?


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangebird* 
Bumping...

Bellymama, Flapjack, anyone?

Has anyone been able to get an answer to the questions I asked a few posts upthread?

I'm curious about the answers to your and gingerbane's questions, too.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

i've been coming to MDC less and less lately, i got other stuff to do IRL, but i sent message to Firewolf regarding the question about the danger issue, and as soon as i hear back from her i will share her response.

to be honest, i really no longer want to debate this issue with anyone. i shared a lot of info and my opinion and i don't want to keep rehashing it over and over, because i could be spending that time with my family...this thread was meant to just make people think...if you have read all of this and still think that Blessingway is the right term for you, then i am exhausted and i don't want to try and argue with you about it.
each person knows what is best for themselves.
peace.


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## Avena (May 27, 2005)

i'm off to read up


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gingerbane* 
Bellymama - I think it's interesting that you lauded Flapjacks posts about why "anyone would feel the need for an alternate word" and yet it seems that this is one of the core issues of the debate - the *alternate* word that the Dineh now use instead of the one that their grandmothers gifted them with. I think it goes both ways. It's an *alternate* word on either side, Dineh or not.

Not bellymama, but for me the difference is that the American government had a policy that attempted to destroy Native languages and cultures. Children were forcibly removed from their homes and placed into schools where they were rountinely beaten for speaking their own langage. So it is much more understandable to me that they would HAVE to have an alternative word. English speaking Americans have never faced any such oppression and therefore, have no similar reason for using an alternative expression.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *andreac* 
Not bellymama, but for me the difference is that the American government had a policy that attempted to destroy Native languages and cultures. Children were forcibly removed from their homes and placed into schools where they were rountinely beaten for speaking their own langage. So it is much more understandable to me that they would HAVE to have an alternative word. English speaking Americans have never faced any such oppression and therefore, have no similar reason for using an alternative expression.

THANK YOU!!! You put that so clearly. I think it is incredibly arrogrant and displays a huge sense of entitlement to claim that, since it's an English word, the Dine appropriated it and therefore have no right to ask others not to use it.

Bellymama has put so much effort into gathering information that any one of us could have done if we had taken the time. People wanted proof that the Dine actually felt this way--she brought it. And brought more. She gave you links, she shared correspondence--and for some people, it's still not enough, and that's sad. At some point, you have to do your own work.


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## etoilech (Mar 25, 2004)

: there are no words.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

orangebird, i spoke with Firewolf about your questions. i originally posted her exact reponse, but she asked me if i would delete that and just paraphrase what she wrote me. so here it goes:
basically she told me that she wasn't going to explain to anyone the details about the safegaurding of the Dine' medicine, simply that the safeguards were put their to protect their people. The stuff we are discussing in this thread is very private and sacred, and she didn't feel comfortable discussing it further than she already has because it was important to her to respect the traditions and their privacy...


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
THANK YOU!!! You put that so clearly. I think it is incredibly arrogrant and displays a huge sense of entitlement to claim that, since it's an English word, the Dine appropriated it and therefore have no right to ask others not to use it.

Bellymama has put so much effort into gathering information that any one of us could have done if we had taken the time. People wanted proof that the Dine actually felt this way--she brought it. And brought more. She gave you links, she shared correspondence--and for some people, it's still not enough, and that's sad. At some point, you have to do your own work.

thanks missy. i appreciate this a lot.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

OK, to clarify my post.

I'm not using the phrase danger, but rather, a darkness. If you act totally consciously and mindfully of who you are and what you're doing, living in the now but paying respect to the environment around you and your spiritual traditions, whatever they may be, then life is good. Nature hates a vacuum. If you fall into the trap of doing something because everyone else does it, it seems like fun, don't see any harm, what's the big deal anyhow, then you give up something critical. Your integrity. That's a pretty big deal to me. Integrity. Wholeness. Fulfillment. Good words, strong words, things to be sought for. If you trivialise that which brings wholeness and fulfillment to others, then how can you fail to be poorer spiritually for it?


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

i have been thinking of something and i wanted to share it.
earlier in the thread, i discussed the fact that i am a dancer and that i do a lot of "fusion" dancing. i mainly am a bellydancer, but i studied modern dance in college and also have a great love for west african, congolese, flamenco, salsa, tango, mexican folklorico etc etc etc...as a bellydance teacher and performer, i would describe my style as "fusion bellydance" because i incorporate all of these styles into my bellydance, creating a more "interesting" (to me anyway) style of dance.
as i said in my pp about this, i take great care to do this in a very respectful manner. i study as much as i can about the cultural and historical context that these dances evolved in before i fuse with them. if at any time i find it to be something that would offend or disrespect the original creators of these dance forms, then i don't do it. so most often, the dance forms i have borrowed from have been dances done in a secular sense...not necessarily involved in any sacred tradition or religious sphere.
for example...i am totally moved when i have been blessed enough to watch whirling dervishes of the sufi tradition as well as the local tribes here in norcal's brush dances and other sacred dances that they have been willing to share in performance. however, i would never ever ever dream of borrowing or incorporating any of these dances into my bellydance fusion because they are sacred to the people who perform them. it would be disrespectful and wrong. i am content to be an observer, i am grateful to be allowed to observe.
this is why i think that the Blessingway should be left alone. because it is sacred in a way that a non-Dine' can't really understand. i certainly don't understand it, nor even know the full content of it. but i understand enough that when someone comes to me sincerely and tells me that something i am doing (especially something that i can very easily NOT DO,like call my baby shower a Blessingway) is hurtful to them, i stop doing it.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

forgot to add one more thing in regards to the above post i just made.
speaking about the whirling dervishes or the brush dancers for instance: as a trained dancer, it would be very easy for me to perform the movements of these dances...to go through the motions, i guess. i could study video tapes, watch performers and take notes, and after a while, i would be able to replicate them with ease. but i wouldn't really be doing them, and i wouldn't really be feeling them or understanding them at all, because those are not my spiritual beliefs...it would be fake and empty and kind of stupid, imo. i would be simply _"going through the motions"_
just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
another Dine woman messaged me in regards to this discussion and asked me to keep most of her correspondence private but she did say i could use one line of her email to me:

Quote:

_*"call it what it is, not what you wish it was"*_
i found that to be such an excellent point i asked her i could share that one line and she consented. it really sums it all up to me.


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
THANK YOU!!! You put that so clearly. I think it is incredibly arrogrant and displays a huge sense of entitlement to claim that, since it's an English word, the Dine appropriated it and therefore have no right to ask others not to use it.

Bellymama has put so much effort into gathering information that any one of us could have done if we had taken the time. People wanted proof that the Dine actually felt this way--she brought it. And brought more. She gave you links, she shared correspondence--and for some people, it's still not enough, and that's sad. At some point, you have to do your own work.









Thanks Missy, that compliment means a lot coming from you. I've learned so much from reading threads like this and the (many, many) racism threads. I know it can be frustrating to you guys but really for all the people who don't get it, there are many that will! I know that before I started reading about this stuff here, I may very well have had the same sort of "But what's the big deal?" sort of reaction.


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## gingerbane (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
"*new-age blessingways" for lack of a better term, ARE directly referencing the aspects of the Hózhójí that are open to public knowledge...therefore it is, as the medicine woman said: "a bastardization"...it's not two unrelated things, as people keep trying to say*. look up ANY new age blessingway website or books and it will directly reference the Hózhójí. yes, i am aware that it isn't REALLY a Hózhójí...no non-DIne' really knows the details of what happens in that ceremony. but SOME aspects have been revealed, and they are being appropriated....
so while the new age blessingways are not Hózhójí, they ARE directly unfluenced and related to what little knowledge that we, as non-Dine', have of this ceremony. both of these things are issues.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *gingerbane* 
But if the whole thing and not just the use of the word blessingway is a bastardization, as this posts seems to say, why would not using the word but doing the same thing make it less of a bastardization? So is the problem that the word or the event is influenced by Navajo tradition. Because if people are still doing the same things and just changing the word to something like motherblessing it's _still_ influenced by the original Navajo Hózhójí ceremony. Right?

I am still wondering about this.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

both the word and the event are related to the blessingway of the Dine'. both of those things are an issue to me and to the Dine' i have spoken to.

i have decided to take a long (maybe permanent?) hiatus from MDC because i really need to get a life, so if you have any questions for me, just know it might be a long time before i come back and answer them.
thanks! have a great holiday season.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

If you are ever in the mood when you get back, I am still curious abut the "danger" elements brought up earlier.

Again, I have no desire to use the term Blessingway, and even less so knowing that it is considered disrespectful. My questioning in this thread is not to defend the use of the name or ceremonial aspects. I am not about that at all. It sounds like it is better if people just stop using it since they have been respectfully asked.

I am just looking for an explanation of what this danger is a few people have mentioned. Who is in danger? The baby in such a ceremony if not given by the right people or under the right conditions? Or the people attempting to imitate the Dine ceremony? Danger from who? And how?

Again, I don't use the word myself, I don't imitate the ceremony myself. But people were warned of dangers, how can a threat of sorts just be left hanging like that? I am really trying to understand what that means.

And with no disrespect for whoever speaks of such danger and I'm not asking for details of any secret ceremony. I just want to understand who would be in danger and what kind of danger.

Why was it mentioned if it can't be inquired about?

Thanks


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## Organicavocado (Mar 15, 2006)

Hmmm. We were calling the little ceremony I was going to have here in my home a blessingway. I don't remember EVER hearing the word before then, and didn't associate it with a particular set of activities and whatnot. It just seemed like a natural word to use to describe what would happen in it's shortest form. "Mother Blessing" didn't do that, "Baby Blessing" wouldn't do it as nobody was blessing anything physical. It sure as heck wasn't going to be a "baby shower" as I wanted something private and centered without gifts, just telling birth stories and baby stories and mothering stories... cooking, washing, preparing for the baby to be here and for the birth itself. Blessing, just as it sounds, my journey (way) into motherhood. Blessingjourney sounded pretty silly. After a while I decided I wanted that day to be solely between my husband, my baby, and I... and it ceased needing a name at all.

So, being told I'm being disrespectful and whatnot for using the word seems fairly out there to me considering I don't/didn't know what a "Blessingway" was, that it was done by natives or by "soccer moms with pink dreamcatchers" or white people or purple people or anypeople. And being told that using the term and such is going to cause some voodoo evil on myself or my baby doesn't seem very.. well, I guess I can't comment on that since we can't know the details.

I really see no evil here, the word is pretty benign (at least it must be if I "made it up", it just seems like a descriptive word) and while I am seeing that people are asking that other people don't use the term, I really still see no issue with it. My mom asked me to stop saying "crap" and "booger" a long time ago as they seriously offended her, and I did... in her presence. What I say and do in my own home is my own business.

I see very few exceptions where it seems that people are using blessingway and baby shower interchangeably, and maybe in that case this post would be useful, but really see no malice from anybody at all. I guess what I'm saying is that I've rethought (is that even a word? there i go making stuff up again) it and not much has changed.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

I really see no evil here, the word is pretty benign (at least it must be if I "made it up", it just seems like a descriptive word) and while I am seeing that people are asking that other people don't use the term, I really still see no issue with it. My mom asked me to stop saying "crap" and "booger" a long time ago as they seriously offended her, and I did... in her presence. What I say and do in my own home is my own business.

I see very few exceptions where it seems that people are using blessingway and baby shower interchangeably, and maybe in that case this post would be useful, but really see no malice from anybody at all. I guess what I'm saying is that I've rethought (is that even a word? there i go making stuff up again) it and not much has changed.
Well, alrighty then. Glad that's settled.

Bellymama, thanks for your work and your time trying to break this down, but, as you can see, it's all been settled now and nothing you said really matters.

Heyyyy--totally off-topic--but did anyone see the episode of Zach and Cody when Maddy "wrote" a story for school and it turns out what she thought she had written was actually a book her mom used to read her that she had forgotten about? Oddly, the original author was kind of miffed about it.


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## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Thank you for this important thread.


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## Organicavocado (Mar 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
Well, alrighty then. Glad that's settled.

Bellymama, thanks for your work and your time trying to break this down, but, as you can see, it's all been settled now and nothing you said really matters.

Cute.







It's funny, I just came on here because I realized last night as I went to bed that I hadn't thanked her for her post. Obviously I didn't intend for my post to be the end-all be-all any more than anyone elses post did, but I did have something to add that I hadn't seen anyone else add. So I added it, since several people have said "I don't get why it's so hard to change the name". She asked us to rethink the matter, and I did. So I didn't agree, now I get to be slathered in sarcasm. -shrug- can't please everybody.

So, thank you. I appreciate it, I really do. Of course what you say does matter, and obviously you've changed several minds on here.


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## delicious (Jun 16, 2003)

bump.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

I'm bumping too!







:


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## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

bump


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## lotusbeans (Dec 20, 2003)

A thanks and a bump.


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## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

bump to the first page


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## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

I keep getting this in my e-mail and though I want to follow some other threads, not this one. How can I fix it?


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## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

you can unsubscibe in your user panel


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## Meksmama (Jun 15, 2006)

I just went looking for this so I will bump it also...


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

bump-oh bellymama....where r u?


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

i was reading this essay by Barbara Kingsolver, "the spaces between", from her book High Tide in Tucson and this quote really captured what i feel about this topic, so much so that i felt that sharing it was important.

taken from the book "High Tide in Tucson" from the essay "the spaces between"...

Quote:

...lately we have been besieged with a new, bizarre form of racism that sets apart all things Native as objects of either worship or commerce, depending on your proclivities. it's scary enough to see Kokopelli on a keychain-god for sale, under 5 dollars- but i'm not much more comfortable with the other angle, the sweat lodge suburbanites who borrow the material trappings of native ceremonies as a spiritual quickie to offset the stresses of life. What began as anthropology escalated to fad, and it strikes me that assigning magical powers to a cultures every belief and by-product is simply another wat of setting those people apart. it's more benign than burning crosses on lawns, for sure, *but ultimately not much more humane*
(bolding mines)


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## beesister (Mar 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
i was reading this essay by Barbara Kingsolver, "the spaces between", from her book High Tide in Tucson and this quote really captured what i feel about this topic, so much so that i felt that sharing it was important.

taken from the book "High Tide in Tucson" from the essay "the spaces between"...

(bolding mines)

beautifully put (or quoted?







) mama.
Thank you for all of your thoughtful comments and insight into such a multi-layered and complex issue.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beesister* 
beautifully put (or quoted?







) mama.
Thank you for all of your thoughtful comments and insight into such a multi-layered and complex issue.

she said it better than i ever could. the whole article is more on her concern over the fact that many people have a view of Natives as if they don't exsist now, like they are something you see in a museum exhibit, not actual groups of people who still exist and are trying their best to rebuild and salvage their cultures, languages and ceremonies after centuries of being victims of genocide, relocation and punishment for practicing their religions and speaking their language.
i just liked this quote because it really captures the fact that people are really uneducated (really by no fault of their own, its our school system's crappy way of teaching history and our governments way of relocating these peoples in wasteland areas out of the way so we can just forget about what happened to them and what they still are suffering through now) about what really happened to the Natives of this country, and what is STILL happening to them.
anyway, i don't really want to re-ignite a big argument, because in the end, we are all going to do what we feel is okay, so getting mad at eachother really is pointless, but i just really felt that that quote was worth sharing.


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## Goddess3_2005 (Oct 20, 2004)

As a mama of Native American descent, THANK YOU for the time and effort you have spent on this!







:


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## Freud (Jan 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
Considering NA's are victims of genocide and forced assimilation and were virtually wiped off the face of the planet, I'm not surprised many of their languages are dying and they'd be using English words. And I don't see what's humorous about that, either. Actually, I find white people LAUGHING about it pretty offensive and disgusting.









I totally agree.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

bumping for the new pregnant mamas.


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## selena_ski (Jun 16, 2006)

Since this was bumped by OP for more moms to see I am going to play devils advocate.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
i was reading this essay by Barbara Kingsolver, "the spaces between", from her book High Tide in Tucson and this quote really captured what i feel about this topic, so much so that i felt that sharing it was important.

taken from the book "High Tide in Tucson" from the essay "the spaces between"...
Native as objects of either worship or commerce, depending on your proclivities. it's scary enough to see Kokopelli on a keychain-god for sale, under 5 dollars

I believe this is a one sided view, I could go into a store and buy a key chain of a cross, or a pentacle, or a number of different religious items. Should I be offended that many people take my Lords name in vain, or misuse a key chain of my Savior. Yes it is insincere, but it doesn't mean the same to them. It lacks it religious/spiritual value to them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
another Dine woman messaged me in regards to this discussion and asked me to keep most of her correspondence private but she did say i could use one line of her email to me:

*"call it what it is, not what you wish it was"*

i found that to be such an excellent point i asked her i could share that one line and she consented. it really sums it all up to me.

Why is it not a blessing way? see next post.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Organicavocado* 
Hmmm. We were calling the little ceremony I was going to have here in my home a blessingway. I don't remember EVER hearing the word before then, and didn't associate it with a particular set of activities and whatnot. *It just seemed like a natural word to use to describe what would happen in it's shortest form. "Mother Blessing" didn't do that, "Baby Blessing" wouldn't do it as nobody was blessing anything physical.* It sure as heck wasn't going to be a "baby shower" as I wanted something private and centered without gifts, just telling birth stories and baby stories and mothering stories... cooking, washing, preparing for the baby to be here and for the birth itself. *Blessing, just as it sounds, my journey (way) into motherhood*. Blessingjourney sounded pretty silly.

Why is this compound word exclusively Dine(h)? I haven't had a "BlessingWay" but it seems like a great alternative to a commercial baby shower. Celebrating and welcoming a new womans journey into motherhood.

It isn't a mother blessing, or a baby blessing (which if we get really technical is a term used by the LDS religion.) It is blessing the Journey or Way into motherhood.

If the Dine(h) use this term and part of the ceremony when a woman starts menstruating that is also part of becoming a mother. And perhaps i ought to give my daughter a celebration and a blessing when that time comes.

It has been said they have a word that is more meaningful/rich then the English translation could ever be, why shouldn't they use that.

But i do have a question to the OP and to the Dine(h) people, Is the ceremony conducted in English? yes is is relevant because if the use the Dine(h) term during the ceremony it gives less significant to the translation, how ever if they use English and the term blessingway during the ceremony it might make me more inclined to change my term.

Perhaps i would use Journey Blessing, or Blessing the way instead.

I hope this can across clear, as my thoughts are rambling and pg hormones raging. I am still undecided if this term should be moved off my commonly used terms list.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

i think i have addressed all of your issues with this in the very long thread. i no longer plan on debating this with anyone...so i don't want you to think i am ignoring you. i have made my point, and now it is of course up to the individual to decide what they feel comfortable doing. in no way do i intend to force anyone to do or not do anything, merely to reconsider...if after reconsidering, you still feel totally in the right using that term for a new age baby shower, than that is your right.


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## apelilae (Oct 8, 2006)

TFS!!! I'm calling mine a belly blessing party


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I've noticed a lot of people using "mother blessing" these days.


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## sarahtar (Mar 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
thanks. i tried really hard to say it nicely.

I'm sorry you've been hurt by us non-natives (I clearly have gotten the impression from this thread that we're less worthy) who fail to see things the same way you do, but I personally found your OP to be very accusatory. Someone earlier posted an alternative way you could have said what you have since claimed to have meant - "hey, did you know that the term blessingway comes from this culture, here's some links to what it means, it's such a cool thing, etc."

You have been claiming to only want people to consider using a different term, but then you're all upset and offended that not everyone has jumped on the bandwagon with you.

I'm not really planning to have a blessingway, but I still fail to see why, if I were planning one, I'd change the name of it. I fail to see why the US Government screwing over the Native Americans generations ago means that I personally need to do whatever the Native Americans ask. Or why it would be so over-the-top offensive that some people have innocently used a 100% English word to describe something vaguely similar to a Native American ritual. It seems to me that cultures adapting the practices, habits, ceremonies, mores, etc of other cultures and making them their own is just a part of living on this planet, and is particularly a part of living in America.

In the late 1920s, black people living in America created something all their own - jazz. But they didn't try to hold on to it, keep it for themselves, start campaigns to stop anyone who wasn't black from playing jazz music or dancing to it. Instead, they willingly shared it with other musicians. By the 30s, black dancers and white dancers were dancing together at the Savoy ballroom to awesome jazz music played by white musicians and by black musicians. They all got along, they all shared this wonderful thing that the black musicians had created. Our culture (the American culture) would be so much poorer if, instead, black musicians had kept it to themselves, not shared their discovery of jazz, jealously tried to keep any other cultures from playing it, etc.

Now, I realize that jazz music is not a sacred ceremony, but has it occurred to Native people that maybe we could all be a bit more enriched if the approach used here was a bit different? A bit more "this is an important part of my culture I'd love to share with you" and a bit less "I'm infuriated that these women are stealing our blessingway ceremony"? That, through understanding of other people's cultures, we will naturally want to avoid doing things that might be offensive? And that, through accusation and assumptions, all we do is create defensiveness? We don't change minds by being mean.

And, sorry, I stopped reading this thread when I saw someone call someone else priveleged and then bring up white supremacy.







And I probably won't be back for that very reason. name calling rarely advances any argument.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apelilae* 
TFS!!! I'm calling mine a belly blessing party

that's really cute.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahtar* 
I'm sorry you've been hurt by us non-natives (I clearly have gotten the impression from this thread that we're less worthy) who fail to see things the same way you do, but I personally found your OP to be very accusatory. Someone earlier posted an alternative way you could have said what you have since claimed to have meant - "hey, did you know that the term blessingway comes from this culture, here's some links to what it means, it's such a cool thing, etc."

You have been claiming to only want people to consider using a different term, but then you're all upset and offended that not everyone has jumped on the bandwagon with you.

I'm not really planning to have a blessingway, but I still fail to see why, if I were planning one, I'd change the name of it. I fail to see why the US Government screwing over the Native Americans generations ago means that I personally need to do whatever the Native Americans ask. Or why it would be so over-the-top offensive that some people have innocently used a 100% English word to describe something vaguely similar to a Native American ritual. It seems to me that cultures adapting the practices, habits, ceremonies, mores, etc of other cultures and making them their own is just a part of living on this planet, and is particularly a part of living in America.

In the late 1920s, black people living in America created something all their own - jazz. But they didn't try to hold on to it, keep it for themselves, start campaigns to stop anyone who wasn't black from playing jazz music or dancing to it. Instead, they willingly shared it with other musicians. By the 30s, black dancers and white dancers were dancing together at the Savoy ballroom to awesome jazz music played by white musicians and by black musicians. They all got along, they all shared this wonderful thing that the black musicians had created. Our culture (the American culture) would be so much poorer if, instead, black musicians had kept it to themselves, not shared their discovery of jazz, jealously tried to keep any other cultures from playing it, etc.

Now, I realize that jazz music is not a sacred ceremony, but has it occurred to Native people that maybe we could all be a bit more enriched if the approach used here was a bit different? A bit more "this is an important part of my culture I'd love to share with you" and a bit less "I'm infuriated that these women are stealing our blessingway ceremony"? That, through understanding of other people's cultures, we will naturally want to avoid doing things that might be offensive? And that, through accusation and assumptions, all we do is create defensiveness? We don't change minds by being mean.

And, sorry, I stopped reading this thread when I saw someone call someone else priveleged and then bring up white supremacy.







And I probably won't be back for that very reason. name calling rarely advances any argument.

jazz is secular music. your point is moot. and rolling your eyes rarely advances an argument either.







see?
i think that you may not be fully informed on exactly what happened to the natives of this country. because if you were, i doubt you would say such callous things.
you seem defensive. again, i never said you have to not use the term, merely that you research it and look into what the people it belongs to think of it's use outside of the tribe. if you could care less about the wishes of the people that this tradition belongs to, then by all means, just do whatever the hell you want. native people are certainly used to that.


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## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahtar* 
And, sorry, I stopped reading this thread when I saw someone call someone else priveleged and then bring up white supremacy.







And I probably won't be back for that very reason. name calling rarely advances any argument.

well, didn't you know that the whites ain't got no culture or real traditions? Yep, I've seen it myself how it's apparently okey dokey to name call and put down whites...you know simply because they are white. If you're white then you can't possibly understand *true* culture and cultural values.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe* 
well, didn't you know that the whites ain't got no culture or real traditions? Yep, I've seen it myself how it's apparently okey dokey to name call and put down whites...you know simply because they are white. If you're white then you can't possibly understand *true* culture and cultural values.

i can't speak for the others on this thread, but i don't feel that way at all. my point is exactly what you are saying (sarcastically







), white people have so many rich and beautiful cultures...there are so many that it seems silly to forsake them for someone elses, because the ones that are yours (general you, not anyone in particular) already have meaning and depth that your people have spent however long building up. i find it troubling that so many white people think that taking "non-european" traditions and rituals make it somehow more meaninful. this is so far from the truth. these rituals are ALL meaningful, to the people that they belong to. to just pick and choose pieces of others traditions and think that that somehow makes it more meaninful is silly.
i don't put down or namecall whites. i identify as caucasian. my grandmother was half native, but due to racism in her family, we didn't know this until she was 55. so although i have blood in me that is native, i don't practice any native rituals or traditions, because that's not the culture i was raised in. i was raised by portugese immigrants, so those are the rituals and traditions i participate in, and pass down to my children. it was be as silly for me to have a blessingway as any person who has no native blood, simply because i was not raised that way, so the traditions and rituals have no deep meaning to me. i appreciate them and think they are beautiful, i go to pow-wows, and intertribal gatherings, but i certainly don't jump into a dance or start banging on my drum simply because i happen to have 1/8 native blood in me.
it's more about actually understanding and having it have meaning. like abimommy pointed out in the other blessingway thread, it's like having a bat mitzvah for your thirteen year old daughter without being jewish. sure, you could read books and create an identical party, but without being raised jewish, learning the religious meaning, and practicing it, it would be totally ridiculous, and have no spiritual meaning to you.

i think ALL people understand culture and cultural values. i think each culture in this world is rich and full of deep and powerful truth, TO THE PEOPLE THAT IT PERTAINS TO. in no way do i mean to come across like i think white people don't have culture...i just wish we would embrace our own culture more, and try to seek the meaningfulness of our own. it's disrespectful to our elders to forsake their traditions for the traditions of someone else.
i apologize if i at anytime sounded like what you describe in your post. that was never my intention.


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## selena_ski (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
abimommy pointed out in the other blessingway thread, it's like having a bat mitzvah for your thirteen year old daughter without being jewish. sure, you could read books and create an identical party, but without being raised jewish, learning the religious meaning, and practicing it, *it would be totally ridiculous, and have no spiritual meaning to you.*

How do you or any one else know what has spiritual meaning to me?


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

okay, fine, if using the ritual of a religion that you aren't actually a member of, which means you don't have the background to fully understand the implications of what the ritual means, sounds okay to you, then go on girl.
this is just argument for the sake of argument. and i don't want to play. again and again i say, do what feels right to you.if having a bat mitzvah as a non jew or having a blessingway as a non Dine feels like a totally normal and respectable thing to do, then go on and do it. stop nitpicking. if it felt so right, you wouldn't have to be here defending yourself, you'd just do it.

do you like it when people who aren't parents act like parenting experts? i sure don't. you know why? they don't have the background, experience and emotional understanding of being parents...so what they say means jack shit to me. it's kind of like that. if you don't know what you are doing, then what you are doing means nothing. and it's annoying to the people who do know, who have the experience and the emotional understanding and investment in the process.
it seems like common sense to me.


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## ~~Mama2B~~ (Mar 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JorgieGirl* 
Popping in to say this is how I would see it.

People using the term 'blessingway' who aren't Navajo aren't doing it to offend, they are doing it to honour. Why there needs to be a bruhaha about something that is intended to be goodhearted is just picking the wrong battle. Seriously, there are much worse things going on in this world that need the attention.

I totally agree.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~~Mama2B~~* 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JorgieGirl
Popping in to say this is how I would see it.

People using the term 'blessingway' who aren't Navajo aren't doing it to offend, they are doing it to honour. Why there needs to be a bruhaha about something that is intended to be goodhearted is just picking the wrong battle. Seriously, there are much worse things going on in this world that need the attention.
I totally agree.

But if it _does_ offend, that so-called "good" intent is lost. It doesn't honor anyone that way. Why is it so hard to simply respect that? There are worse things going on--but this kind of disrespect and dismissive approach perpetuates a climate that is one of those things that we do need to pay attention to. It's a small thing, but part of something much larger.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
But if it _does_ offend, that so-called "good" intent is lost. It doesn't honor anyone that way. Why is it so hard to simply respect that? There are worse things going on--but this kind of disrespect and dismissive approach perpetuates a climate that is one of those things that we do need to pay attention to. It's a small thing, but part of something much larger.

thanks missy.


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## sebarnes (Feb 2, 2005)

Just to let you know - it was because of this thread that my circle of friends and I have begun using the term 'Mother's Blessing' for our celebration of a woman's passage into motherhood.

I also want to point out that I don't consider a Mother's Blessing a 'new age baby shower.' While baby showers focus on the baby coming into the world, the Mother's Blessing focuses on the mother coming into the world. It's trying to bring attention to something that our society has too long ignored. I guess I'm just trying to answer the idea that we don't think our mother's traditions are 'good enough' for us. It's not that I'm against baby showers - I just think that the change a mother goes through is too often pushed aside and although mother and baby are born together, they are different and deserve separate recognition. Am I making any sense?


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## abharrington (Jun 30, 2007)

hmm...i may be way out in left field here, but my "baby shower" was not commercial or materialistic. some women did make things for my baby but most of the items were donated to the local crisis pregnancy center as we had way more than we could ever use. it WAS as wonderful time of sharing from women i love, of all ages and stages of life and a very encouraging time for a new mama, who was understandably scared and uncertain about what lie ahead. i am so thankful for their love and support and felt very honored by the party.

i guess i'm just trying to say, make it what YOU want and who cares if it is or isn't just like everyone elses. you certainly don't have to adopt a word from another culture to make it different.

i am glad to know the background on the term blessingway, though, as it is used a ton in our community. and i plan to share the info with the mamas i know that use it. thanks op!


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sebarnes* 
Just to let you know - it was because of this thread that my circle of friends and I have begun using the term 'Mother's Blessing' for our celebration of a woman's passage into motherhood.

I also want to point out that I don't consider a Mother's Blessing a 'new age baby shower.' While baby showers focus on the baby coming into the world, the Mother's Blessing focuses on the mother coming into the world. It's trying to bring attention to something that our society has too long ignored. I guess I'm just trying to answer the idea that we don't think our mother's traditions are 'good enough' for us. It's not that I'm against baby showers - I just think that the change a mother goes through is too often pushed aside and although mother and baby are born together, they are different and deserve separate recognition. Am I making any sense?

yes, this makes sense.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abharrington* 
hmm...i may be way out in left field here, but my "baby shower" was not commercial or materialistic. some women did make things for my baby but most of the items were donated to the local crisis pregnancy center as we had way more than we could ever use. it WAS as wonderful time of sharing from women i love, of all ages and stages of life and a very encouraging time for a new mama, who was understandably scared and uncertain about what lie ahead. i am so thankful for their love and support and felt very honored by the party.

i guess i'm just trying to say, make it what YOU want and who cares if it is or isn't just like everyone elses. you certainly don't have to adopt a word from another culture to make it different.

i am glad to know the background on the term blessingway, though, as it is used a ton in our community. and i plan to share the info with the mamas i know that use it. thanks op!

i had a baby shower too, and it was awesome, and i felt special and honored, and i felt a great connection with the women who came with me.


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## Synchro246 (Aug 8, 2005)

Bump








The new American tradition of honoring and supporting a woman who is about to transition into a relationship with a new person certainly deserves a word all it's own. It doesn't NEED to take blessingway.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
. i think each culture in this world is rich and full of deep and powerful truth, TO THE PEOPLE THAT IT PERTAINS TO. i..i just wish we would embrace our own culture more, and try to seek the meaningfulness of our own. it's disrespectful to our elders to forsake their traditions for the traditions of someone else.

American culture may be rich, but _I_ feel that it is sadly absent of deep and powerful truth for the most part. Sure, there are elements of truth--like the ideology of freedom (even though the American reality isn't freedom exactly). There are local and regional traditions that are positive. I accept those.
I don't want to embrace my own culture more. I don't want to be told that I should. My own culture does a good job of making me want to puke on a daily basis. This is why I chose to study anthropology--to try to get to some universal truth--to try to find some way to live that is genuine to me.
I can't take on the actual traditions of other cultures; as you said it's just going thru the motions if I did. I remain heavily influenced by my own culture, that is certain.
All I know is that I am a nature worshiper. Everything else just stems from that. I _have_ to create my own traditions. I believe that a tradition of honoring a woman in her transition from one to more than one is important. The traditional babyshower I had with my first still gives me the creepy-crawlies. I still feel _*guilt*_ about it happening. I needed something different. I needed something with spirituality and I don't want whatever I call it to be called "pseudo-spiritual".


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

synchro, i think that making new traditions that are powerful to you sounds like a great idea!


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## lotusbeans (Dec 20, 2003)




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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusbeans* 
*If you aren't doing it with the purpose of offending someone, why is it so important that you keep doing it once you know it does hurt or offend people?* I don't get why someone would think, "I'm going to do what I want and I don't care if it hurts or offends you." I don't think being asked to not use one simple little phrase is really asking for all that much. Showing a little respect and kindness is not that difficult.

That there are other things that need attention doesn't mean this shouldn't be given some attention. I don't think anyone is thinking, learning, or talking about this and in the process ignoring other issues.


exactly!


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## gentleearthmama (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks Bellymama for this thread.
We call our ritual/celebrations "Mother Blessing Ceremonies" in my circle of friends. I don't know at all what a Dine ceremony would be like, but ours are sacred in their own way and don't resemble a traditional baby shower at all.
Have you seen the book Mother Rising by Yana Courtland, Barb Lucke, and Donna ****** Watelet? The subtitle is "The Blessingway Journey into Motherhood" It draws from many cultures to guide one in leading a blessing ceremony for a pregnant mother. I personally love the book, but I wonder if the authors have been or should be contacted regarding their use of the word "blessingway". The book could also be part of the reason the word is used so freely by many people who don't understand or know about how it offends the Dine.
I apologize if this particular subject has already been addressed, I don't have time to read the whole thread.
Thanks again for posting. I believe it is important to respect the Dine and their wishes. They aren't asking much.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

gentleearthmama, thanks for your post. i totally agree that no one is using the term to intentionally be rude, and most probably have never heard of the Dine's ritual.
i think your ideas sound really cool, and are a great way to create a new way of having a baby blessing.


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gingerbane* 
It is very important to respect this about the Navajo culture and community but why do Navajo people not just use the original word from the Navajo language? Or do they, and non-Navajo people use "blessingway" because we don't know/can't pronounce the original word? It just seems odd to me. I mean we all say Bar Mitzvah and not it's English translation, "son of the commandment" and we say cinco de mayo not "5th of May" and Hannukah not "dedication" and on and on.

I'm a huge advocate of cultural appropriateness. But why use the non-cultural term for something and then ask everyone to keep it only in the culture? It doesn't make sense to me.

I'm still on the first page, but this is what I was thinking as well.


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
Considering NA's are victims of genocide and forced assimilation and were virtually wiped off the face of the planet, I'm not surprised many of their languages are dying and they'd be using English words. And I don't see what's humorous about that, either. Actually, I find *white people* LAUGHING about it pretty offensive and disgusting.

Thank you for your post, bellymama.


Whoa and double whoa Cherry Bomb. That you think that white people can't be native is very racist. My hubby is as white as drywall, but he's 50% Sto:lo First Nations, here in Canada and the Western US. His entire family lives on reserve.

I understand that there are sacred ceremonies and beliefs. I respect it if someone would prefer if I don't use a phrase inappropriately. But to offend while making a point is volatile. And tho your comment was useful and made good points, I've lost the gist of it in my anger about your racist comment.
There are PLENTY of white people who are also Native.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

i think by white she meant non-native blood.
i am white, but have native blood, so i agree completely with that fact. but i am not raised traditionally, so i don't run around talking about the great spirit and passing out dream catchers just because i am 1/8 ,yk?
but i am pretty sure that when she wrote that, she meant she found it not very respectful that non-native people would be laughing about it.
but that was a long time ago, that she wrote it, so maybe she will come back and explain for herself.


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

Ok.. I get that.

I don't know when this thread started. But I really, really do hate it when people use the term "white people" with such distaste when referring to non natives.

Native blood has been so watered down over the last hundred years, its nearly impossible to tell who is and isn't native and the color of the skin is NO indicator at all.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Wow. What an emotionally charged thread. Thank you for bringing this up, bellymama.
I am "Indian". I will wait for those of you who object to my using that word to quiet down before continuing.
My mother was "Indian" when she was enrolled by the government and her reservation, as was my gran. I have been "Indian" my whole life. Because I *look* "white", I generally use the term "Native" when I'm speaking to others who don't know my background. However, when I'm on reserve and/or with others who *do* know my background and who call themselves "Indian" and are most comfortable with that term as opposed to the PC names which have come about in an attempt to disassociate the people from their past (IMO and the opinion of many of "my" people with whom I have spoken about the subject), I will say "Indian". That's what we were called. I'm tired of changing the terms I use to refer to myself just because "everyone else" (read: the dominant group) says "It's not right." If you want to get technical, I am Saulteaux and Cree by blood, and Ojibwa by "adoption". Of course, chances are, unless you are "Indian" or have extensively studied the background of "Indian" peoples, that means nothing to you. Basically, what I'm saying is this: Don't tell me what I am anymore. I am what I am and I am "Indian". I'm sorry if this offends those who have adopted the new term of "Native" or "Aboriginal" but that is how I was raised.
And that, basically, is what this is all about. When Europeans came to this country, we Indians had our own names for things. We had names for places, animals, trees, *ourselves*, our traditions, our rites of passage, our cultural practices... Everything that they had names for, we did also. In our own language.
Then all of that changed. We were told that the names for the places we had referred to a certain way for so long was now something else. The names for our trees were changed. Our words for them were outlawed, since our languages were not to be spoke on fear of death. When we said "I'm Ojibwa." or "I'm Navajo." or "I'm <whatever Indian tribe>.", we were told "No, you're Indian."
THAT, imo, is what this is about.
There are, now, Indian people who were raised using certain words for certain traditions/sacred rites/etc and why should we have to change our words *again* so that everyone else can have something they find uplifting? We *had* our own words. They were taken from us. We found new words... often more than once. Please don't take our words again.

ETA: I, by no means, speak for every "Indian". This is *my* experience, *my* opinion and the *general* consensus amongst those people of "Indian" descent with whom I have spoken on the subject.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

I know my last post was very emotional. This is an emotional subject for me. I have fought my whole life (as have many others) to learn "what it is to be Indian". Many of our traditions have been lost. Most of the others have been "renamed" By using the term "Blessingway" to refer to something you could easily call something else, it can confuse the issue for the young "Natives" who are searching desperately for their cultural identity.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

thanks for sharing this!


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

if anybody feels like they need more information or reasons why they shouldn't use the term blessingway...these people would probably love to chat:

Center for Support & Protection of Indian Religions & Indigenous Traditions PHONE/FAX
510-535-0505 /
PO Box 17002
Oakland, CA 94601

Quote:

Description. Center for the SPIRIT (Support and Protection of Indian Religions and Indigenous Traditions) is a nonprofit organization of American Indian people dedicated to the preservation and revitalization of American Indian spiritual practices and religious traditions. Headquartered in Oakland we have begun to systematically address the momentous problem of "New Age" exploitation and expropriation of the sacred traditions of American Indian tribes--a problem which has proliferated alarmingly in the Bay Area and throughout California in recent years. The center monitors assaults against Native American religion that occur across the country.

Mission. Dedicated to the preservation and revitalization of American Indian spiritual practices and religious traditions. Headquartered in Oakland we have begun to systematically address the momentous problem of "New Age" exploitation and expropriation of the sacred traditions of American Indian tribes--a problem which has proliferated alarmingly in the Bay Area and throughout California in recent years.


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## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Excellent information bellymama. It's so great that you keep this thread up to date for newly pg moms (and everyone else).

My brother and SIL are having a baby in your town later this summer!!


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

thankyou


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## autumnbloom (Oct 1, 2006)

I'm moving my response to the Blessingway? thread over here.... i haven't read through all 11 pages, but I think I have a fairly good gist of what's going on.

Also - before I begin, i'll note that I am part Caddo and part Comanche. I grew up in the Southwest, surrounded by reservations & Native American culture. Many of my best friends were full blood Native American (Many Dine/Navajo), and my mother was inducted to the Yavapai Tribe there as an honorary member, so if you consider her "true Yavapai" you could add that to my bloodline as well. (not that I feel it gives me any "extra" weight here... it just seems to be an issue in this thread that "white people" are allowed no opinion.)

That said, this is probably not at all popular opinion, but I have to wonder if its so socially unacceptable to adopt any traditions from other cultures, or if its just this.

We aren't Jewish but we celebrate Passover and I teach my children about Hanukkah. We do celebrations for Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and Christmas. Not because we have a specific religious affiliation with any of them (except Christmas, but that's a longer story), but because I think its important for my family to appreciate and learn about different traditions and cultures. To me its not about "stealing" it from a culture that created it, but rather, its about further understanding and respecting it.

If you've ever been to a cookout on Memorial day, but dont have any loved ones that you're "remembering" who served in the military, is that so uncouth?

Where do we draw the line?

I do understand that it is important to respect other cultures, and it is horrifying that so many went through the incredible oppression & suffering that has been described. It wasn't right. it wasn't something I would do, and I dont think any of these mamas are either.

It *is* important to respect the origin of things, but learning from, respecting, and adapting certain things from various cultures does not mean that we are repeating the same horrifying behavior that occurred in years past.

Celebrating a woman's transition into motherhood does not equal stealing land, killing native americans, or anything else along those lines. It is important to respect the origin of the tradition, and to respect the people who created it. However, I fail to see how it is so horrifying to adapt it to modern culture in a respectful way.

It is important to be respectful when learning and adapting new traditions from other cultures, but I think its also a positive thing that now we are focusing on the incredible traditions and moving power that we should have learned from the first time as a society from this group of individuals. I think that is a sign of growth and respect, rather than one of disrespect or "stealing".

In the end it winds up being a matter of free speech and personal preference. Whether you call it a bar mitzvah or a "passage into manhood" the traditions would be the same, and what you wind up fighting over are semantics.

Wouldn't it be more culturally sound, and progressive for cultures to come *together* to share their knowledge and traditions in a respectful manner rather than to play the "mine! mine! mine!" game?

Having grown up in the Southwest, and so ingrained in Native American culture, I have definitely come across some activists who want Native American purity, and for no one to come in and have *anything* to do with them, want the country back, and want repercussions for the decendants of those who hurt their ancestors.

I can't blame them for feeling that way after all that their culture went through.

BUT (and I hope I dont step on toes here - I'm just trying to make a point) - it is no more socially acceptable for African Americans or Mexicans, or Irish (for example) to ban people from having any traditions that they adapted. If that were the case, we would all be crossing the line by singing or listening to gospel music, celebrating St. Patties day, or having a margarita on Cinco De Mayo (the latter two, I believe to be a heck of a lot more disrespectful to those cultures, than adopting a mama blessing ceremony, which actually winds up benefiting the mama & baby in a sacred way, and in many many cases also acting as sense of education, reverence and respect for the culture from which it was adapted).

Again I ask... where do we draw the line??


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## autumnbloom (Oct 1, 2006)

JacquelineR - I wanted to say thank you for sharing your own opinion & insight too... its good to hear from someone who is speaking directly for herself and the people she knows on this subject. I can see where you're coming from in a lot of ways, and can't blame you one bit for feeling that way.

One thing that stuck out for me was the statement, "We *had* our own words. They were taken from us. We found new words... often more than once. Please don't take our words again."

I'm so sorry for the pain and struggle that you all have experienced and the fear that you may one day experience something like that again.

My hope is that in cases like this "we" (the general public, who may want to learn about blessing ceremonies like this) wouldn't be "taking" anything from you, but instead learning and coming to respect it/you/Indian culture much more than "we" have in the past.

That's what I'm getting at when I say that I hope more than anything things like this can be seen and embraced as a sign of progression. Not a threat, but a chance for "us" to make changes and bridge the gap between cultures with an air of respect, rather than draw even deeper lines of separation, segregation, distrust, and hate.

Does that make any sense?


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *autumnbloom* 
JacquelineR - I wanted to say thank you for sharing your own opinion & insight too... its good to hear from someone who is speaking directly for herself and the people she knows on this subject. I can see where you're coming from in a lot of ways, and can't blame you one bit for feeling that way.

One thing that stuck out for me was the statement, "We *had* our own words. They were taken from us. We found new words... often more than once. Please don't take our words again."

I'm so sorry for the pain and struggle that you all have experienced and the fear that you may one day experience something like that again.

My hope is that in cases like this "we" (the general public, who may want to learn about blessing ceremonies like this) wouldn't be "taking" anything from you, but instead learning and coming to respect it/you/Indian culture much more than "we" have in the past.

That's what I'm getting at when I say that I hope more than anything things like this can be seen and embraced as a sign of progression. Not a threat, but a chance for "us" to make changes and bridge the gap between cultures with an air of respect, rather than draw even deeper lines of separation, segregation, distrust, and hate.

Does that make any sense?

It doesn't make sense. The people who are most impacted by it have made a simple request. True respect, true _progress_ would mean that we finally honor that. I genuinely don't get how people can cloak this in "respect" while disrespecting those who, yes, own the tradition.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

And to some of your other points:

I can't speak about Passover, because I'm not Jewish. I don't get to make that determination. However. Memorial Day? Please. That belongs to no one. No one is born into that tradition and culture, and, in the US, it belongs to all of us. That was just silly.


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## autumnbloom (Oct 1, 2006)

My examples with memorial day, and passover were just that - examples - not exact parallels.

I understand that some Native Americans have requested that "we" not call it a blessingway, but I have also known many many many people *IN* the Navajo (Dine) culture specifically who are more than willing to share their traditions. One loud voice doesn't necessarily speak for all, kwim?

(and by the way I wouldn't personally call it a blessingway if I were having a mama blessing ceremony, just because I'm not one to fight much or stir up any fuss. I'm mostly responding to the topic here, not defending my own use of the word).

I can see from your siggy that racism is an issue that you feel very strongly about. I do too. I think we just come at it with different angles.

I do respect requests of those who ask not to use it. I'm also just trying to strike up conversation that might bring about a different way of thinking, or hilight a different point of view.

*ETA* - I want to clarify that I really am in support of the preservation of Indian culture. My mother and I are currently working on the plans for a project with the Comanche nation here to help them preserve their language (which is quickly fading as it is not written), and to bring some income back to their community as well (through another means, as approved by the tribal council - its in the works). I really do have a BIG respect for Native Americans, but just like in ANY culture, you will have differences when it comes to what people think is best.

Imagine if people heard the voices of just the activists on one side of the coin for the many issues in the US: abortion, education, liberal versus conservative views on many things... its important to consider both sides of the coin to find a balance and make our own choices. I would hate to think that our whole nation would be represented by one party who spoke loudly. There are many voices that need to be heard to really get a better understanding.

I feel that applies here too, with Native American culture. The voices we've heard are just a few. I know for a fact I have talked to Navajo (Dine) people who were not only willing, but excited, to share their traditions with people... and not just individuals, but sometimes the entire town, inviting them in to view and learn about, and sometimes take part in ceremonies.

its a big world, with lots of opinions... its important to consider all.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

It's really one thing when you are _invited_ to learn about the traditions, and quite another when you appropriate a custom without that invitation.

And I get that you're stirring conversation, but the idea that "I'm just doing it because I respect the Dine and want to honor them" has been hashed out repeatedly on almost all of these threads, and what it boils down to is that it's simply not respectful if you continue to ignore the requests of those who own the tradition, y'know? That kind of defies the definition of respect.

To be clear, autumnbloom, I'm using "you" as a general term, even though I'm responding to your post.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:

Also - before I begin, i'll note that I am part Caddo and part Comanche. I grew up in the Southwest, surrounded by reservations & Native American culture. Many of my best friends were full blood Native American (Many Dine/Navajo), and my mother was inducted to the Yavapai Tribe there as an honorary member, so if you consider her "true Yavapai" you could add that to my bloodline as well. (not that I feel it gives me any "extra" weight here... it just seems to be an issue in this thread that "white people" are allowed no opinion.)
Honestly, your opinion would mean just as much to me if you were "white" as it does coming from someone whose heritage is similar to my own. With that said, I need to ask you the same question my foster mother, a Medicine Woman, asked me when I said I was "part Indian". What part? Do you have some line on you where you stop being "European" and *start* being "Indian"? Basically, you're either "Indian" or you're not. "Blood quantum" means nothing and is something which was imposed on "us" by the people who oppressed "us" (and, in some ways, continue to do so through laws which are still on or have not been removed from "the books"). Imagine if other cultures were told "You have to be <whatever percent> "blood quantum" to count yourself as such." If we want to get into blood quantum, I am "1/4 Indian", but I still consider myself "just as Indian as" someone who is "full-blooded" and "no more Indian than" someone whose "blood quantum" is 1/8. My mother says I'm "more Indian" than she is because I was lucky enough to be exposed to and taught the traditions of "our People".

Quote:

I understand that some Native Americans have requested that "we" not call it a blessingway, but I have also known many many many people *IN* the Navajo (Dine) culture specifically who are more than willing to share their traditions. One loud voice doesn't necessarily speak for all, kwim?
ITA. BUT when people not of the originating culture start using a word for a sacred ceremony to describe something supposedly based on it but having no knowledge of the origin, much less the actual ceremony, I take issue.

I

Quote:

magine if people heard the voices of just the activists on one side of the coin for the many issues in the US: abortion, education, liberal versus conservative views on many things... its important to consider both sides of the coin to find a balance and make our own choices. I would hate to think that our whole nation would be represented by one party who spoke loudly. There are many voices that need to be heard to really get a better understanding.
Again, ITA. However, again ime- and bear in mind I'm from Canada where "Treaty Rights" are still enforced to some degree, when the dominant group starts complaining about the supposed "privileges" "we" have (ie hunting without a license, as per treaty agreements) and simultaneously taking "our" ceremonies without any knowledge of the ceremony whatsoever (*definitely not* bartered for in treaty agreements), I take issue also.

Quote:

I feel that applies here too, with Native American culture. The voices we've heard are just a few. I know for a fact I have talked to Navajo (Dine) people who were not only willing, but excited, to share their traditions with people... and not just individuals, but sometimes the entire town, inviting them in to view and learn about, and sometimes take part in ceremonies.
Certainly. I am definitely excited to share my culture with people. That does *not* give them the right, however, to go and *perform* or *mimic* sacred rites without any knowledge of how to do so. I equate people holding non-NA "blessingways" with some person on the street with no theological background holding mass. Priests and pastors have gone to college and apprenticed to learn how to perform certain rites "properly". Just because a Medicine person's education is not from a college and "only" through a (usually very long) apprenticeship, it is somehow less than that? I think not.

Quote:

It's really one thing when you are invited to learn about the traditions, and quite another when you appropriate a custom without that invitation.
Exactly.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

I should mention, also, that I am strong believer of the prophecy of "Rainbow warriors" or "Rainbow people". There *is* nothing which separates us all from each other, we are all the same. My issue is in people not respecting the *knowledge* required to perform these ceremonies *properly*. Just because we're all the same, doesn't mean that we all know the same things. We all know different things and it isn't until we learn to learn from each other *respectfully* and accept that we all have different knowledge that we can live in harmony with each other. Again, my opinion.


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## autumnbloom (Oct 1, 2006)

Since we seem to be in agreement with so many things (albeit coming from different perspectives) I'll just reply to this specific part:

Quote:

Honestly, your opinion would mean just as much to me if you were "white" as it does coming from someone whose heritage is similar to my own. With that said, I need to ask you the same question my foster mother, a Medicine Woman, asked me when I said I was "part Indian". What part? Do you have some line on you where you stop being "European" and *start* being "Indian"? Basically, you're either "Indian" or you're not. "Blood quantum" means nothing and is something which was imposed on "us" by the people who oppressed "us" (and, in some ways, continue to do so through laws which are still on or have not been removed from "the books"). Imagine if other cultures were told "You have to be <whatever percent> "blood quantum" to count yourself as such." If we want to get into blood quantum, I am "1/4 Indian", but I still consider myself "just as Indian as" someone who is "full-blooded" and "no more Indian than" someone whose "blood quantum" is 1/8. My mother says I'm "more Indian" than she is because I was lucky enough to be exposed to and taught the traditions of "our People".
I totally get what you're saying. I really wasn't addressing that specific part to you (so please dont take offense). There were posts earlier on that indicated that was an "issue" for some people and I really only said it "tongue-in-cheek." Like I said - I dont feel it gives any more or less weight to my points, as I feel they stand strong enough on their own.

I'm very much in agreement with Sage_SS when she said:

Quote:

Ok.. I get that.

I don't know when this thread started. But I really, really do hate it when people use the term "white people" with such distaste when referring to non natives.

Native blood has been so watered down over the last hundred years, its nearly impossible to tell who is and isn't native and the color of the skin is NO indicator at all.
Anyhow - on being "Indian"... I do have to respectfully disagree that you are all or nothing. That, or maybe come to a *type* of agreement with your stance in that you can be fully Indian (even with only "1/4 blood" or however much - as an example), and fully ____ (Irish, English, Mexican, what-have-you). In my opinion its not right to expect someone to claim only one nationality when their heritage is so colorful.

I dont claim to have all of the rights of full-blood Indians, but I still consider it a valid and important part of who I am. I have never put in for any type of assistance (like with education funding) or claimed any rights to anything, other than my nationality and heritage.

Its something I am deeply proud of, cherish, and respect. Its a part of me, who I am, and my genetic history. I do wish that I had been exposed to more of that part of my family, but unfortunately (due to family politics, a divorce in the family, etc) the closest I was able to get growing up was being in an area with other Native Americans who I was fortunate to get to know personally and also learn about their culture and traditions.

But I am also proud to have ancestors from Ireland and England too. We celebrate our Irish heritage a great deal. As much as we celebrate our Native American heritage. I'm not less of one because I am some of the other.


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## autumnbloom (Oct 1, 2006)

Quote:

I should mention, also, that I am strong believer of the prophecy of "Rainbow warriors" or "Rainbow people". There *is* nothing which separates us all from each other, we are all the same. My issue is in people not respecting the *knowledge* required to perform these ceremonies *properly*. Just because we're all the same, doesn't mean that we all know the same things. We all know different things and it isn't until we learn to learn from each other *respectfully* and accept that we all have different knowledge that we can live in harmony with each other. Again, my opinion.
Where is the boys choir!? This is *exactly* what I have been trying to say.

I DO think that its important to know what you're doing if you're going to celebrate different traditions, like a Blessingway. That's why I think that the respectful and progressive thing to do would be to work together to share knowledge about things like this. Not only would it provide a way for people who are truly interested in understanding and adapting these amazing traditions do so in the *right* way, but it could also help to bridge a gap that has been there for so, so long (for good reason in the beginning, but the idealist part of me hopes that we can move past that horrific time, learn from it, and use that to grow stronger together as a community, appreciating respecting and honoring our differences. That's a "nutshell" version of that aspect of it. I know that there is more to it, but again, thats my idealist hope).


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:

I dont claim to have all of the rights of full-blood Indians, but I still consider it a valid and important part of who I am. I have never put in for any type of assistance (like with education funding) or claimed any rights to anything, other than my nationality and heritage....
But I am also proud to have ancestors from Ireland and England too. We celebrate our Irish heritage a great deal. As much as we celebrate our Native American hertiage. I'm not less of one because I am some of the other.
You said it better than I did. However, what I disagree with here is that, imo, you *should* have "all the rights of full-blood Indians". My reasoning for that is this: "we" have lived with the repercussions of "our" ancestors signing treaties and "we" should also enjoy the benefits for which they bartered. The majority of treaties were signed by NA chieftains under the agreement that their descendants would receive the "benefits" in perpetuity, not only those with a certain percentage of "Indian blood" but ALL of their descendants.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *autumnbloom* 
I DO think that its important to know what you're doing if you're going to celebrate different traditions, like a Blessingway. That's why I think that the respectful and progressive thing to do would be to work together to share knowledge about things like this. Not only would it provide a way for people who are truly interested in understanding and adapting these amazing traditions do so in the *right* way, but it could also help to bridge a gap that has been there for so, so long (for good reason in the beginning, but the idealist part of me hopes that we can move past that horrific time, learn from it, and use that to grow stronger together as a community, appreciating respecting and honoring our differences. That's a "nutshell" version of that aspect of it. I know that there is more to it, but again, thats my idealist hope).

I'm glad we agree on that.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *autumnbloom* 
I totally get what you're saying. I really wasn't addressing that specific part to you (so please dont take offense). There were posts earlier on that indicated that was an "issue" for some people and I really only said it "tongue-in-cheek." Like I said - I dont feel it gives any more or less weight to my points, as I feel they stand strong enough on their own.

Anyhow - on being "Indian"... I do have to respectfully disagree that you are all or nothing. That, or maybe come to a *type* of agreement with your stance in that you can be fully Indian (even with only "1/4 blood" or however much - as an example), and fully ____ (Irish, English, Mexican, what-have-you). In my opinion its not right to expect someone to claim only one nationality when their heritage is so colorful.

Regarding the first part, I took no offense, I was just sharing my stance on it.








Regarding the second part, you again said it better than perhaps I did. I wasn't trying to say that because you are fully Indian, you could not be another heritage. What I'm trying to say is that by saying "I'm part Indian", you deny being *fully* Indian and allow others to buy into the "blood quantum" mindset.

ETA: I'm sorry for taking this thread so off-topic.







I'll stop now.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy* 
It's really one thing when you are _invited_ to learn about the traditions, and quite another when you appropriate a custom without that invitation.

And I get that you're stirring conversation, but the idea that "I'm just doing it because I respect the Dine and want to honor them" has been hashed out repeatedly on almost all of these threads, and what it boils down to is that it's simply not respectful if you continue to ignore the requests of those who own the tradition, y'know? That kind of defies the definition of respect.

To be clear, autumnbloom, I'm using "you" as a general term, even though I'm responding to your post.









this. if you meet a Dine, and they decide to share their ritual with you, then wonderful. the few i have spoken to have said that they wouldn't share it with anyone outside the tribe, not even other natives of other tribes, because it just wouldn't make sense...they have their own traditions. it wasn't to be mean, or inclusive or be a jerk...it just makes no sense to them to share something that to understand fully you have to be of the people.

and i'm not sure you really celebrate passover. i have been to passover dinners, but i didn't celebrate it like the people who truly believe it and live it. it was wonderful to experience, but i can't fully participate because i don't have the experience and knowledge to fully get what the ritual means. same with friends who i have brought with me to catholic mass. they participated, but they didn't take communion because they had respect enough to know that if they didn't truly believe that the host is the body of christ it would be almost blasphemous to take it.

so again, this is a personal choice. not everyone is going to agree with me. that's okay.


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## autumnbloom (Oct 1, 2006)

Quote:

You said it better than I did. However, what I disagree with here is that, imo, you *should* have "all the rights of full-blood Indians". My reasoning for that is this: "we" have lived with the repercussions of "our" ancestors signing treaties and "we" should also enjoy the benefits for which they bartered. The majority of treaties were signed by NA chieftains under the agreement that their descendants would receive the "benefits" in perpetuity, not only those with a certain percentage of "Indian blood" but ALL of their descendants.
Ahhhh - I see what you're saying here!







That makes a lot of sense! (though i dont plan on going out and asking for any assistance/rights afforded to Native Americans, still, because I worry that it might possibly take away from someone else who could use it more than me!)









You make a lot of good points Jacqueline!!







Thanks for having such an awesome intellectual discussion with me on this. I love learning new things, and I think we both were able to see and appreciate a different perspective. Can't beat that


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
Honestly, your opinion would mean just as much to me if you were "white" as it does coming from someone whose heritage is similar to my own. With that said, I need to ask you the same question my foster mother, a Medicine Woman, asked me when I said I was "part Indian". What part? Do you have some line on you where you stop being "European" and *start* being "Indian"? Basically, you're either "Indian" or you're not. "Blood quantum" means nothing and is something which was imposed on "us" by the people who oppressed "us" (and, in some ways, continue to do so through laws which are still on or have not been removed from "the books"). Imagine if other cultures were told "You have to be <whatever percent> "blood quantum" to count yourself as such." If we want to get into blood quantum, I am "1/4 Indian", but I still consider myself "just as Indian as" someone who is "full-blooded" and "no more Indian than" someone whose "blood quantum" is 1/8. My mother says I'm "more Indian" than she is because I was lucky enough to be exposed to and taught the traditions of "our People".

ITA. BUT when people not of the originating culture start using a word for a sacred ceremony to describe something supposedly based on it but having no knowledge of the origin, much less the actual ceremony, I take issue.

I
Again, ITA. However, again ime- and bear in mind I'm from Canada where "Treaty Rights" are still enforced to some degree, when the dominant group starts complaining about the supposed "privileges" "we" have (ie hunting without a license, as per treaty agreements) and simultaneously taking "our" ceremonies without any knowledge of the ceremony whatsoever (*definitely not* bartered for in treaty agreements), I take issue also.

Certainly. I am definitely excited to share my culture with people. That does *not* give them the right, however, to go and *perform* or *mimic* sacred rites without any knowledge of how to do so. I equate people holding non-NA "blessingways" with some person on the street with no theological background holding mass. Priests and pastors have gone to college and apprenticed to learn how to perform certain rites "properly". Just because a Medicine person's education is not from a college and "only" through a (usually very long) apprenticeship, it is somehow less than that? I think not.

Exactly.

thanks for all this. i am so tired from being up with a teething toddler all night that i can barely think straight, but this is the gist of what i would responding with had i two brain cells still awake. excellent points.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
this. if you meet a Dine, and they decide to share their ritual with you, then wonderful. the few i have spoken to have said that they wouldn't share it with anyone outside the tribe, not even other natives of other tribes, because it just wouldn't make sense...they have their own traditions. it wasn't to be mean, or inclusive or be a jerk...it just makes no sense to them to share something that to understand fully you have to be of the people.

and i'm not sure you really celebrate passover. i have been to passover dinners, but i didn't celebrate it like the people who truly believe it and live it. it was wonderful to experience, but i can't fully participate because i don't have the experience and knowledge to fully get what the ritual means. same with friends who i have brought with me to catholic mass. they participated, but they didn't take communion because they had respect enough to know that if they didn't truly believe that the host is the body of christ it would be almost blasphemous to take it.

so again, this is a personal choice. not everyone is going to agree with me. that's okay.

I understand and to be clear, I would never even *attempt* a Blessingway without *full knowledge* of what it entails or the assistance of someone who does. I would very much like to *learn* more about this tradition, though I would *never* feel comfortable sharing it with someone else since it is not "mine" to share. I hope that makes sense.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

because i am going to edit the posts i put on the other Blessingway thread so it's no longer hijacked, here are the responses i put when someone asked for more links:

Quote:

.not necessarily on the Blessingway, but the general cultural appropriation that is being done to NDN "spirituality"...trust me, American Indians care about this shit:

this is my favorite, because it is a collection of some Indian Activists thoughts on the new age movements ripping off of their traditions:
http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com...es/native.html

http://gonativeamerica.homestead.com...riation07.html
http://www.lelandra.com/comptarot/tarotindian.htm

from this link:
http://archive.uua.org/ga/ga01/2038.html
Quote:
the context in which cultural symbols and practices are expressed is extremely meaningful. "The specificity [of their use] is so complete, that visiting Native Americans do not participate in another tribe's rituals, and to do so would be perceived as foolish. "I would not even practice the rituals of my own tribe, because I am not an elder or spiritual leader." If t
his is true of her own people, then the use of these things by others who share no cultural context is seen not only as particularly foolish and inappropriate.
from this link:
http://www.quakersweat.org/appropriation.html

Quote:
" . . .the unspeakable indignity of having our most precious Lakota ceremonies and spiritual practices desecrated, mocked and abused by non-Indian "wannabes," hucksters, cultists, commercial profiteers and self-styled "New Age shamans" and their followers . . . ."
Quote:
Many people hold that cultural appropriation is wrong because by stealing an element from someone's culture and then representing it in a different (and often shallow) context, you both damage and dishonor the culture you have taken the ritual from."
Quote:
Appropriation occurs when one party takes upon itself to uncover and absorb the practices of another culture without proper understanding, training, respect or permission."
Quote:
"Cultural Appropriation - refers to the process by which members of relatively privileged groups "raid" the culture of less powerful or marginalized groups, and removing [sic] cultural practices or artifacts from historically or culturally specific contexts.
from this link:
Quote:
http://www.legendarysurfers.com/naw/...1_archive.html
In the so-called postmodern culture of late consumer capitalism, a significant number of white affluent suburban and urban middle-aged baby-boomers complain of feeling uprooted from cultural traditions, community belonging, and spiritual meaning. The New Age movement is one such response to these feelings. New Agers romanticize an "authentic" and "traditional" Native American culture whose spirituality can save them from their own sense of malaise.....Meanwhile, their fetishization of Native American spirituality not only masks the social oppression of real Indian peoples but also perpetuates it.
from this link:
http://www.thepeoplespaths.net/articles/warlakot.htm
Quote:
While Native Nations continue the flight for religious freedom rights, "New Age" hucksters and other exploiters of Indian spirituality run rampant throughout the country, forcing Native people to take a stand against the desecration of their spiritual ways
.

Quote:
... urges people to identify instances where sacred tradition are being abused and to work toward stopping the abuse through demonstrations, boycotts, press coverage and direct intervention.
Quote:
...center for the SPIRIT (Support and Protection of Indian Religions and Indigenous Traditions), a San Francisco-based organization of Indian people committed to halting the exploitation of Native ceremonies. The Center in dedicated to protecting Indian spiritual practices and traditions and is working to raise public awareness on American Indian religious freedom issues.
Quote:
As the epidemic of exploitation and expropriation of Indian spirituality continues to spread, more Native people are taking direct action to put a stop to the "spiritual genocide" being committed by those who imitate Lakota ceremonies.
i can keep going too, if you want me to. there are tons more articles, books, websites. just let me know.

Quote:

still more:

from this link:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...11/ai_15449850
Quote:
Irony. Pathos. Hilarity. You needed a sense of each of these to appreciate a New York Times story in December about some ritualists in Boulder, Colorado, who were praying to Mother Earth and Father Sky. The devotees burned herbs, beat drums, and offered words expressing reverence for "the red nation," the Native Americans or Indians. Writer David Johnston comments: "All that was missing was an Indian." The 40 ceremonialists whom he visited for his story were white New Agers, part of a movement that imitates, borrows from or snatches Indian ways. But many Indian tribes and organizations, Johnston reports, "far from being flattered by the imitators, have denounced the movement as cultural robbery."
Quote:
...Spiritual "genocide,"....
Quote:
These wannabes live in "trendy, affluent places." Avoiding and rejecting "the faiths of their youth," says Johnston, they had found their inherited, usually Jewish or Christian, religions "boring and not very much fun at all."
this sounds somehow familiar.:

Quote:
defends their cultural robbery by calling their Native American critics "Indian fundamentalists," who practice "reverse racism."
Quote:
"When you uproot something one culture and plant it in another culture, it is not the same thing. The danger is that these mutations of spirituality will make their way back into the Indian world."

from this link:
http://www.thetrackingproject.org/wr...ftofspirit.htm

Quote:
"We are members of the Bay Area American Indian community, and we are outraged by non-Indian wannabes and would-be gurus of 'the New Age' shamelessly exploiting and mocking our sacred religious traditions... These sacred ways have enabled our people to survive five centuries of genocide. We will not allow these most sacred gifts to be desecrated and abused... OUR SACRED SPIRITUAL PRACTICES ARE NOT FOR SALE, AND IF YOU TRY TO STEAL THEM FROM US, YOU ARE GUILTY OF SPIRITUAL GENOCIDE."

Quote:

just rereading the very first link i posted and this particular line really stood out:
http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com...es/native.html

Quote:
There is a disinformation campaign in progress in Sonoma County to undermine Native peoples' nationwide efforts to protect their ceremonial processes from abuse. The promulgators would have you believe that only a few "militant" Indians are concerned about this exploitation by those who have no real knowledge of the deep inner meaning inherent in these ceremonies. The truth is that the overwhelming majority of Native people DO object to this phenomenon.
__________________


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## autumnbloom (Oct 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
and i'm not sure you really celebrate passover. i have been to passover dinners, but i didn't celebrate it like the people who truly believe it and live it. it was wonderful to experience, but i can't fully participate because i don't have the experience and knowledge to fully get what the ritual means. same with friends who i have brought with me to catholic mass. they participated, but they didn't take communion because they had respect enough to know that if they didn't truly believe that the host is the body of christ it would be almost blasphemous to take it.

I *do* celebrate passover. I'm Christian, and even though I may not be Jewish (who celebrate passover as a very important part of their faith), I still understand and appreciate and believe in everything that goes into it.

But honestly, if my church (ie - my "culture") had taught me that because we are Christian we ignore our Jewish brethren, and don't learn anything about why people celebrate different things, we would be ignoring a part of our own spiritual history.

I've been a part of churches that "own" their own traditions and I've been a part of churches that are open to teaching people who don't know, what it means, and including them so that they can experience it for themselves. The difference is that in situations where you're able to learn and take part, you gain a respect for it, and even if you dont wind up finding that it is for you, you learn to appreciate why and how they celebrate / have traditions.

*ETA* - took out marriage examples... i wasn't saying things as clearly as I wanted... I'll try to come back to that later...

Quote:

not everyone is going to agree with me. that's okay.
Yes, it is okay to disagree, or to not be able to understand where another person is coming from... that's the varying opinions and the value of diversity that I was talking about earlier too... everyone comes to this from different experiences and understanding.









*ETA*:

Quote:

I understand and to be clear, I would never even *attempt* a Blessingway without *full knowledge* of what it entails or the assistance of someone who does. I would very much like to *learn* more about this tradition, though I would *never* feel comfortable sharing it with someone else since it is not "mine" to share. I hope that makes sense.
Yeah that!


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

How many words do you know that have different or somewhat similar meanings?
I don't have an exact number but if we started going through a dictionary/thesaurus we would find a lot.

This is why I believe that trying to imitate the _ceremony_ is the problem. Using the _term_ and doing what is _your style_ without trying to imitate it is not a problem.

And just because someone has a natural style of art, poetry, music, etc that they would use to celebrate a mother doesn't make them a copy cat on someone's ceremony or new agey. It is simply what is in their heart because I find that people who don't have that sort of mindset can't pretend to have one.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

but jana'smom, if you research the many books and websites dedicated to this New Age Blessingway, they all reference it to "a native american ceremony"...they don't clearly state which one (which is almost more infuriating that they just lump it all together like NA spirituality is one thing, rather than many different traditions and religious beliefs that can very as much as any other two religions) but they reference it.
no it is not exactly the same, because these women who have been perpetuating this "tradition" haven't the inside knowledge of the full ritual of the Blessingway. but make no mistake, it is borrowed from that. look at any blessingway site (i listed many in the OP) they ALL reference the Blessingway as a NA tradition. ALL of them.
so it isn't just the word.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

and word to the mamas who say that they are interested in learning about other traditions rather than just appropriating them. I find the blesssingway fascinating, and i have learned a lot more about it during this thread's research...i'm glad i know about it. but i would never do it. my BA is in Religious STudies. I LOVE to learn about other cultures and their traditions. but just because i find SUfi's traditions, poetry and dance beautiful doesn't mean i am going to use them...just because i think the Greek Orthodox CHurch's use of icons is incredible doesn't mean i am going to wall paper my house with them because they look neat. it's a matter of respect.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *janasmama* 
How many words do you know that have different or somewhat similar meanings?
I don't have an exact number but if we started going through a dictionary/thesaurus we would find a lot.

This is why I believe that trying to imitate the _ceremony_ is the problem. Using the _term_ and doing what is _your style_ without trying to imitate it is not a problem.

And just because someone has a natural style of art, poetry, music, etc that they would use to celebrate a mother doesn't make them a copy cat on someone's ceremony or new agey. It is simply what is in their heart because I find that people who don't have that sort of mindset can't pretend to have one.

Using the _term_ is part of the problem since it is so difficult (whether you realize it or not) as a young Native to define your *own* culture for what it *really is* as opposed to what the majority *displays it as*. Between misrepresentation in entertainment media and the misappropriation and obscene mimicry of our traditions, I am *terrified* that my children will not know anything _true_ about their own culture and people. I will do my level best, of course, to inform and teach them, but against a dominant culture intent on taking what little we have left which is still ours, that won't mean much. I can see, all too well, how easily a young Dine person who had little contact with their people, through no fault of their own, might misunderstand a non-NA "blessingway" as a true Blessingway.
Go ahead, be creative. While you're at it, create a term which resonates for you which doesn't disrespect another culture and demean the suffering they've endured to maintain what they can of their traditions.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

JacquelineR, i think i love you.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

from mothering magazine's article :Blessings and Beads

Quote:

The blessingway is reputed to derive from a Navajo ceremony honoring the pregnant woman and preparing her for birth.
it's straight up a rip off of the Dine Blessingway. no two ways about it. so now that we have established that, can we please stop saying: "a word is just a word" and "words have many meanings" because that's not what we are talking about.
we are talking about cultural appropriation, done with out expressed permission from the culture who's tradition we are taking from.
it's not being done maliciously or with ill intent. nobody said that. i don't think women who want to have a more meaningful birth celebration are trying to be racist theives. that is not what i am saying. i am saying there is a lack of information here. there is not any representation of the people who perform this ritual. what small amount of information that we have been able to find points to it not being something that the Dine, or NA's in general want to have done.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:

*The danger is that these mutations of spirituality will make their way back into the Indian world.*
This was in your longer post, Bellymama. I thought it might bear repeating, considering the last post's statement that we're concerned with "just words".


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

I don't feel that you guys are just concerned with words. And I don't know much about a Blessingway anyways, I've never had one or given one and I've certainly never studied them. I did read the Mothering article that bellymama linked to.

I understand that NA's would be concerned that this 'new' blessingway would enter back into their culture. That would be a good reason for NA's to make sure they are performing these ceremonies with their family/tribe.

My thing is that America doesn't have much of a culture on honoring mothers, babies or anything else for that matter. It's a bunch of baby bottle paraphanelia and little giggly faces. I guess some women are looking for something a little more real that keeps them in tune with the way they feel about being pregnant and giving birth....it's something they are doing, not something that is "happening" to them. Some women really have to search these days to find where they "fit", especially when they don't have a couple of generations of women in the family supporting them.

I appreciate the information you share here and I have never read any of the books that are teaching people how to have a blessingway. I agree that someone could use a different term so as to not confuse anyone. I guess in the end though, unless a word is considered holy (or whatever term is equivalent in ones language) there really isn't a matter of "respect" that has to be placed on the word. (For example: in Christianity, God and Jesus are words to be honored and shouldn't be disrespected.)

Is the term 'blessingway' considered holy (or the equivalent?) or is it the ceremony and/or rituals that are the honorable. I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm just trying to understand.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *janasmama* 
Is the term 'blessingway' considered holy (or the equivalent?) or is it the ceremony and/or rituals that are the honorable. I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm just trying to understand.

I understand you're not being sarcastic and I was not trying to offend nor speak down to you by any means. If I came across that way at all, I apologize.
To the vast majority of Native Americans who follow traditional practices, _names have power_. When that name is used inappropriately, the thing which holds that name *loses* it's power.

The only way I can think of to analogize this is to put it this way:
If you had a battery and it was your only battery and anytime someone else used it, they didn't recharge it, would you let them use it? Even if they didn't *know* how to recharge it? Okay, so teach them how to recharge it, right? Great. Now imagine that teaching them how to recharge said battery takes *years* and, in the meantime, more people have come to use your battery because they saw this other person using your battery and you are only permitted/capable to teach one person at a time how to recharge the battery. What would you do?

ETA: I'm not entirely certain I am explaining it well or properly at all. I will try to contact my foster mother (a Medicine Woman) to get her to clarify it for me again.

Regarding this:

Quote:

I understand that NA's would be concerned that this 'new' blessingway would enter back into their culture. That would be a good reason for NA's to make sure they are performing these ceremonies with their family/tribe.
Usually the only people permitted to perform these rites/ceremonies are Medicine People or Elders. The only way to become a Medicine Person is through many years of training. The only way to become an Elder is to live a long time immersed in the culture (as in, 50 or 60 years) and to learn the rituals that way. If a person moves away from their tribe, they have no access to a Medicine Person or Elder and so, *cannot* teach their children this, only inform them of what they know of it.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Basically, it's not "just a name" or "just a word". In Native American beliefs, the name *is* the thing. This is why Natives who follow a traditional path will not name their children for a living relative. By naming their child *for* that person, they take some of that person's life power.
But as I said, I will talk to my mom asap to make sure I'm giving accurate information.


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## autumnbloom (Oct 1, 2006)

Quote:

Usually the only people permitted to perform these rites/ceremonies are Medicine People or Elders. The only way to become a Medicine Person is through many years of training. The only way to become an Elder is to live a long time immersed in the culture (as in, 50 or 60 years) and to learn the rituals that way. If a person moves away from their tribe, they have no access to a Medicine Person or Elder and so, *cannot* teach their children this, only inform them of what they know of it.
just wanted to say that this is more eye opening and more information than i think has been given in the whole of what i've read so far. Thanks Jacqueline


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

Interesting info. I've heard about a few Blessingways online, but never in real life. When I have babyshowers we just call them baby showers.

I'm not really sure what to think. And in advance, please know I'm not trying to be argumentative when I post this. I'm honestly just curious.

How would someone taking the word Blessingway and using it to call their babyshower or whatever be any different than say, non-Christians celebrating Christmas?

I admit, I haven't read through the whole thread, I've just browsed posts. I can understand if the people throwing the shower are mocking or in some way disgracing the word or event, but what if they just think "hmm... what a pretty word! I think I'll use that!" ? I mean, before reading this thread, I would have thought "What a wonderful term. A WAY to BLESS the mother."

I'm sure I probably come off as very uninformed in this post, but I'm honestly just a bit... hmmm. Not sure how I feel about this, I suppose.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
Basically, it's not "just a name" or "just a word". In Native American beliefs, the name *is* the thing. This is why Natives who follow a traditional path will not name their children for a living relative. By naming their child *for* that person, they take some of that person's life power.
But as I said, I will talk to my mom asap to make sure I'm giving accurate information.

yeah, i think a lot of the difficulty non-NA people are having with this is related to the huge cultural differences. things that may seem inconsequential to you might be hugely important to NA's. which is kind of my point on why you shouldn't do it, because you can't really get it,because the culture is so different.

i agree that mama's are searching for a more meaningful celebration outside of the "traditional" shower. that is wonderful, as i have said many times in this thread. but to create a meaningful new tradition you need to put more thought into it...more than just, well this tradition that this cultural group does looks neat, so i'll just do it.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grniys* 
Interesting info. I've heard about a few Blessingways online, but never in real life. When I have babyshowers we just call them baby showers.

I'm not really sure what to think. And in advance, please know I'm not trying to be argumentative when I post this. I'm honestly just curious.

How would someone taking the word Blessingway and using it to call their babyshower or whatever be any different than say, non-Christians celebrating Christmas?

I admit, I haven't read through the whole thread, I've just browsed posts. I can understand if the people throwing the shower are mocking or in some way disgracing the word or event, but what if they just think "hmm... what a pretty word! I think I'll use that!" ? I mean, before reading this thread, I would have thought "What a wonderful term. A WAY to BLESS the mother."

I'm sure I probably come off as very uninformed in this post, but I'm honestly just a bit... hmmm. Not sure how I feel about this, I suppose.

well, unfortunately for Christians, christmas has become pretty secularized in this country. but i agree that to truly understand the spiritual meaning of christmas, one would need to be a christian.
my dad was born in the Azores (islands in the middle of the Atlantic that belong to Portugal). they had no santa claus. at christmas, they were told that the baby jesus came and gave them a gift (usually one, very small toy...they were pretty much peasants). so there are a lot of ways people celebrate christmas.
i think that at this point, it's almost two different things, Christmas/Santa and Christmas/Christ...which is probably extremely upsetting to very devout Christians. and i would support a Christian saying that it sucks that their tradition celebrating the birth of their religions center piece has become something completely unrelated.

and i agree and have said many times that in no way to i think that any woman who has chosen to have a blessingway has done so to be a jerk, or to intentionally "steal" from someone. it's a lack of knowledge. which i why i want to spread correct information, so that women can see that it's not "just a pretty word".


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:

I'm not really sure what to think. And in advance, please know I'm not trying to be argumentative when I post this. I'm honestly just curious.
How would someone taking the word Blessingway and using it to call their babyshower or whatever be any different than say, non-Christians celebrating Christmas?
I understand you're not trying to be argumentative and it's perfectly acceptable to question things you don't understand. That's how we learn, right?
I'm not entirely sure how to explain this. Firstly, it's not the tradition of my people so I may be entirely wrong with what I tell you. There may be a similar term in my people's traditions, but I haven't managed to contact my foster mother yet to consult her wisdom.
The first thing you need to know about Blessingways, which most everyone seems to be missing in this thread (and it has been mentioned, but very few seem to have actually read that post or something) is that a Blessingway isn't simply a mother blessing. It is a ceremony performed during/before any major change of life: a new house, a new marriage, a new baby, the beginning of menstruation (new womanhood), when a boy becomes a man, when someone dies, going to war. Major life transitions.
The second thing you need to realize is that despite the fact that it would *seem* it is "commonplace", it is a very sacred and spiritual ceremony. I can't think of a single term or ceremony/ritual in any other culture which encompasses *all of those things*, so I can't even *begin* to equate it to something. All of my explanations fall short.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Okay, maybe this will help somewhat.
Let's say you move to, I don't know... Africa. While you're in Africa, you have a baby. You invite your African friends to join you in celebrating "Life" by holding a baby shower. But you just say "Join me in celebrating Life."
Your African friends, not knowing your traditions or your language or your culture, think "That's a really nice word. Life. I'm going to have a Life when I have my baby."
Pretty soon, everyone is having a Life. You try to explain to them that what you had isn't all that Life is. They say "I don't care. Life is a cool word and I'm going to use it to mean a baby shower."
Next thing you know, the meaning of "Life" to your African friends is a baby shower. You have just succeeded in reducing the meaning of Life. heh.

ETA: Now remember that in the NA traditional ways, the word *is* the thing. Not only have you reduced _the word_ but also the the thing itself. So you have just reduced Life, not just it's meaning.







:


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm not a Christian, but Christianity is still my cultural background, and it is the dominant culture in the US. So it's not really the same thing. It would be more like if people of a completely different religion and cultural background, who had traditions of their own that went with their culture, came to the US and planned a bunch of Christmas celebrations that were a little like Christmas but were mainly a distortion based on their own background and culture, but still called it Christmas and said they were celebrating your holiday with you. But then imagine that this culture were not the dominant culture in the US and that the culture were getting overshadowed.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
It would be more like if people of a completely different religion and cultural background, who had traditions of their own that went with their culture, came to the US and planned a bunch of Christmas celebrations that were a little like Christmas but were mainly a distortion based on their own background and culture, but still called it Christmas and said they were celebrating your holiday with you. But then imagine that this culture were not the dominant culture in the US and that the culture were getting overshadowed.

I can understand what you're trying to say but I don't agree. The dominant culture is the one doing the distorting, first of all. Secondly, it would be more like the dominant people doing something similar to Mass and calling it Christmas... This was the original analogy I came up with in my head but it still doesn't convey it all which is why I didn't use it.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

I asked my foster mom about this, how to explain it and such. She told me that I would need to talk to a Navajo Elder about it. So I have called the Navajo Nation. Unfortunately, the person to whom I need to speak is out of the office today, so I will have to call them again on Monday.
ETA: Although it occurs to me that bellymama is *already* in contact with a Navajo (Dine) Elder who has simply said "Please don't do this."
It reminds me of something my foster mom once said, "We don't invite outsiders to our ceremonies because they don't understand and don't respect us nor our wishes."


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

the Dine woman i spoke with was unable to go into detail about certain aspects of the Blessingway, but she was happy to share with me that she wished people wouldn't do it.
i actually think it's a really good idea to contact the Navajo Nation. i am going to call the SPIRIT network and talk with them about maybe working on a clear statement to send out to these websites, authors and even magazines like Mothering so that they can begin rectifying the situation.
there is not a lot of info on it that can be found, so i can understand a lot of people's reluctance simply to take a few people's word for it. so i am hoping to start getting some more information out there, so that when people google blessingway they will see that information up with the other information, and then be able to make an informed decision.i simply want people to be aware of this. i don't want to force anybody to do anything. i just want all the information to be there when people decide.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

From this site:
http://www.ausbcomp.com/Redman/navajo.htm

Quote:

Blessingway, Hozhoogi, is life to the Navajo. From birth onward this is the center and foundation of all ceremonies.
So my analogy earlier about taking away meaning from Life was (shockingly to me) dead on.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

bumping because i have been reading this collection of essays, _Becoming Part of It_ and there have been some really insightful pieces of information in some of the essays, that are helping me understand more of why using the word blessingway is distressing to the Dineh.
from the essay, Become Part of It, by Joseph Eppes Brown:
a little more on explaining the cultural differences in the importance and use of words and names...and why that it makes sense that some people are having a hard time grasping what the big deal is about using the name.

Quote:

One must mention the special nature of NA languages, which contrasts with our understanding of language and our use of words. In Native languages the understanding is that the meaning _is_ in the sounds,it _is_ in the word; the word is not a symbol for a meaning that has been abstracted out, word and meaning are together in one experience. Thus, to name a being, for example, and animal, is actually to conjure up the power latent in that animal. Added to this is the fact that when we create words, we use our breath, and for these people, in these traditions breath is associated with the principle of life; breath is life itself. And so if a word is born from this sacred principle of breath, this lends an added sacred dimension to the spoken words. It's because this special feeling about words that people avoid using sacred personal names, because they contain the power of the beings named, *and if you use them too much, the power becomes dissipated*.
from The Man Made of Words, by M.Scott Momaday:

Quote:

(The Native American) locates the center of his being within the element of language...It is the dimension in him in which his existence is most fully accomplished. He does not create language but is himself created within it. In a real sensem his language is both the object and the instrument of his religious experience.
and then there are these:
from The Trees Stand Deep Rooted by Sam Gill:

Quote:

The Navajo ceremonial, the Blessingway, demonstrates how the Navajo envision the way thought and speech become manifest in the creation of the word and the sustenance of life. Of the 25-30 major ceremonial ways known to the Navajo, Blessingway is generally recognized as fundamental to all others; it is an indivisible body of story and ritual and a whole religious ideology.

Quote:

The occasion for the first Blessingway ceremonial was the creation of the Navajo world; consequently, *the ways of creation are the model for all versions and all performances of the blessingway* It is because the Blessingway is the way of creation that it is called the backbone of Navajo religion and is recognized as the source, and pattern for the Navajo way of life and thought.

Quote:

"A prevalent non-native attitude is to associate ritual and tradition with lack of innovation and creativity. This may be the biggest contrast between Native and Non-native views of life. This view is alien to the native american because they have accepted the charge of responsibilities for performing the acts upon which life and reality depend.
basically, the Dineh perform the Blessingway almost as a way to keep the world turning. if they weren't to perform it, or if it is performed incorrectly, it sends out some bad medicine, and basically messes up their whole world and religious view. so for them, it's like the greatest act of blasphemy for people to be using this powerful term and participating in a bastardized version of what they do (because as i have found, every.last.one of the New Age Blessingway websites or books i have looked at says that the new Blessingway is directly "borrowed" from "native american traditions".)
anyway, i just found those articles to shed more light on the subject for me, so i wanted to share them.


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## MommyHawk (Aug 4, 2006)

*Mother's Blessing Celebration*
I like this one if you are having a celebration for the mother, either for a first, second or so on child. It's really nice to be celebrated as a Mother. I think our culture can really benefit from this sort of focus on Mothers and Motherhood.

I agree that "Blessingway" is not the way to go in describing or titling your celebration unless you are having an authentic Blessingway in the Dine tradition and the ones giving the celebration/ceremony are Dine.

I admittedly had a Mother's Blessing party/shower, however it was called a Blessingway incorrectly by me since I didn't really think past the name at the time. I wanted to do something for my second child and someone online suggested a Blessingway. I didn't do any research until afterwards.

I then thought it would have been better to have called it a *Mother's Blessing Celebration*. People were very confused, most didn't attend or participate since they were not NDN and thought that it was only for NDNs. I was quite embarrassed when I did look into what one actually was and then realized why most people didn't show up. It didn't mirror a Blessingway at all which is good looking back. The name was the only thing used. None of the ceremony which would have been wrong since we are not Dine and don't have an understanding of the culture/spirituality.

Really unless you and your guests are in understanding of what one really is, you should call something else.

A real Blessingway is a spiritual ceremony. I wouldn't have a Bar/Bat Mitzvah for my son if we were not Jewish. Nor would I have a Baptism for a child if we weren't Christian.

I think that anyone having an actual Blessingway that isn't Dine/Navajo is just as disrespectful to the true meaning of one and the culture to which it is belongs as it would be for someone doing any of the above mentioned ceremonies and not being a part of that spiritual community.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

thanks for sharing that, MommyHawk!


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## Belle (Feb 6, 2005)

I've only read the first 10 pages or so.

One of the pillars of Islam is to go on a journey to Mecca. It is called a Haj. The (rather poor) English translation of this word is Pilgrimage. Now say I were to go on a journey of religious significance. I would call it a pilgrimage and not a haj. Should Muslims be offended because I used the word Pilgrim? I would expect them to be offended if I called myself a Haji after I had gone. That would be inaapropriate of me to do so. But the word pilgrim is kind of generic and not related to their journey.

Now relating to a blessingway. I understand the original name is a Hózhójí. I really don't understand why the (rather poor) English translation to this word is more offensive than calling it a Mother blessing ceremony. I have never used the word blessingway, I would probably use the Mother blessing ceremony, because nobody I know would understand what a blessingway was. But I really don't see how it would be offensive to anyone what I would call my ceremony. Neither Mother Blessing nor Blessingway convey the original meaning of Hózhójí.


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## avivaelona (Jun 24, 2005)

I think what I'm understanding is that the Dine have been so culturally seperated from their language that in order to communicate even with each other, they have to use English for many things. Blessingway is their attempt to translate the Dine word into English and avoid using English words that were already in use...so its a term they coined. Pilgramage is a word that was in frequent use and was just applied to the idea of a Haj, because it was the closest English word in use, it isn't a term that muslims coined trying to rename Haj in a language that most of them used even if it wasn't their original tongue.

People who are using Blessingway are using a term the Dine feel they coined to represent the Dine word (I don't know if the Dine really did coin that term or not) If some other group insisted they coined it too at the same time independently I guess they'd have to duke it out. If no one else does claim that than it seems like not such a big deal to just let them have that term.

Of course I'm biased because I think Blessingway sounds awkward and I prefer other terms better.


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## herins (May 2, 2008)

I have read this entire thread over the past couple of hours, and my mind didn't settle until JacquelineR started posting. I think that had BellyMama explained in the beginning (not that she should have known we needed to be told) how much power a word has, *some* of the arguments may not have started.

Quote:

Basically, it's not "just a name" or "just a word". In Native American beliefs, the name *is* the thing. This is why Natives who follow a traditional path will not name their children for a living relative. By naming their child *for* that person, they take some of that person's life power.
I think the essence of the thread is that some people honour (without necessarily understanding) many aspects of the Blessingway, and feel that there is something lacking in the baby-shower culture of today. Hopefully, upon hearing that the name, in itself, has life power they will choose to find a term that is powerful for themselves.

Damn, I hope I managed to say what I mean. If not - I'll use the pregnancy-brain card too!


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belle* 
Now relating to a blessingway. I understand the original name is a Hózhójí. I really don't understand why the (rather poor) English translation to this word is more offensive than calling it a Mother blessing ceremony. I have never used the word blessingway, I would probably use the Mother blessing ceremony, because nobody I know would understand what a blessingway was. But I really don't see how it would be offensive to anyone what I would call my ceremony. Neither Mother Blessing nor Blessingway convey the original meaning of Hózhójí.

Imagine I came to your country, put you on a tract of land 1/20th of what you used to live on, and told you that you could only speak my language. Then, when your children and grandchildren knew very little of your language, I said "Sure, speak your own language. Oh, and we're taking back these words you've taught your children to describe the ceremonies which are sacred to you (which you did illegally, by the way, good for you). They're ours. Sucks to be you. Hope your family learns your language in the 2 years you have left to live."
Is your opinion still the same?


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belle* 
I've only read the first 10 pages or so.

One of the pillars of Islam is to go on a journey to Mecca. It is called a Haj. The (rather poor) English translation of this word is Pilgrimage. Now say I were to go on a journey of religious significance. I would call it a pilgrimage and not a haj. Should Muslims be offended because I used the word Pilgrim? I would expect them to be offended if I called myself a Haji after I had gone. That would be inaapropriate of me to do so. But the word pilgrim is kind of generic and not related to their journey.

Now relating to a blessingway. I understand the original name is a Hózhójí. I really don't understand why the (rather poor) English translation to this word is more offensive than calling it a Mother blessing ceremony. I have never used the word blessingway, I would probably use the Mother blessing ceremony, because nobody I know would understand what a blessingway was. But I really don't see how it would be offensive to anyone what I would call my ceremony. Neither Mother Blessing nor Blessingway convey the original meaning of Hózhójí.

i don't know how many times i have mentioned this in this thread but because the NA's were FORCED in most cases into using english, this point is totally moot. if you have been FORCED to take on a language then you shouldn't be blamed when you use it. i get what your point is, but this argument to me is weak sauce...it just doesn't hold.
anyway, Christmas is also known as Noel by the French, Navidad in Spanish and Grischtdaag in German...but it's the same damn holiday. you see? it doesn't matter what language you say it in, it's the same.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *herins* 
I have read this entire thread over the past couple of hours, and my mind didn't settle until JacquelineR started posting. I think that had BellyMama explained in the beginning (not that she should have known we needed to be told) how much power a word has, *some* of the arguments may not have started.

I think the essence of the thread is that some people honour (without necessarily understanding) many aspects of the Blessingway, and feel that there is something lacking in the baby-shower culture of today. Hopefully, upon hearing that the name, in itself, has life power they will choose to find a term that is powerful for themselves.

Damn, I hope I managed to say what I mean. If not - I'll use the pregnancy-brain card too!

i agree that a lot of the issues have arisen because of the cultural differences that non-NA have with the NA in terms of how they use names.


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## Mommy StormRaven (Jan 21, 2002)

Whiel I do have the utmost respect for native american (actually more correctly termed aboriginal americans since any american born on US soil is a "native" american" - this was just pointed out to me recently by an Elder friend of mine - I am of the Cherokee Nation) I do have to raise one issue. The Dine' nation doe snto hav ethe copyright on the term "Blessingway".

I had a blessingway for my second daughter - which was performed BY a medicine woman and a Shaman. Though not in the Dine' tradtion it was nonetheless called a blessingway by those performing the Rite. And yes - friends and family WERE incorportated into the rite as well.

Educate oneself by all means but remember this. All of the tribes were originally brances of the same Nation and therfore many of their traditions, ceremonies and paths are very similar if not virtually identical.

Thatsaid - what ever celebration I have for THIS child will nto be a blessingway - the medicine woman has since crossed the Bridge and I no longer live near the Shaman that was present either.


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## Lizzie9984 (Sep 27, 2007)

I think it's just as offensive to hold a Blessingway and call it your own as it would be for someone to circ and hold a Bris and call it their own. Borrowing from another culture can be a respectful thing, IF and ONLY if the exact cultural expectations are followed, and not merely refined to suit the outsider's party flavor of the month.

In short, knowing Native cultures' ceremonies are highly sacred, I find it profusely offensive and disrespectful to hold a Blessingway without either being Dine, or following exact Dine customs and receiving blessings for the ceremony AS the outsider. Otherwise, it's no different than physically taking what is not yours.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)




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## BethSLP (Mar 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *herins* 
I have read this entire thread over the past couple of hours, and my mind didn't settle until JacquelineR started posting. I think that had BellyMama explained in the beginning (not that she should have known we needed to be told) how much power a word has, *some* of the arguments may not have started.
......Hopefully, upon hearing that the name, in itself, has life power they will choose to find a term that is powerful for themselves.


Still TOTALLY disagree.

The Navajo/Dine don't use the word "blessingway." They use the word "Hózhójí." Blessingway is not even a direct translation!

XOXO
B


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## herins (May 2, 2008)

Aaacckk. I posted that a reeeeeally long time ago. I can't believe how some of these threads get revived endlessly.


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## Swan3 (Aug 5, 2008)

Thank you VERY much for this post, I was struggling with what to call my next "shower" as I didn't want gifts...I will not be using this term.


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## 3pink1blue (Jun 23, 2008)

call it whatever you want. no one is going to know anyway.


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BethSLP* 
Still TOTALLY disagree.

The Navajo/Dine don't use the word "blessingway." They use the word "Hózhójí." Blessingway is not even a direct translation!

XOXO
B

Yes, there is a specific word in the Dine language, but as Native languages and traditions are dying out (thanks to white Americans' oppression of natives) it becomes even more important that we respect what tiny things that they have held on to and ask us to leave sacred to them.


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## Kells97 (Dec 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3pink1blue* 
call it whatever you want. no one is going to know anyway.

Except for the people you invite, who then think nothing of it and tell all the other people they know expecting a baby about this "cool new thing" and then they tell others . . .

And since when does others not knowing about something make it okay to do?


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kells97* 
Except for the people you invite, who then think nothing of it and tell all the other people they know expecting a baby about this "cool new thing" and then they tell others . . .

And since when does others not knowing about something make it okay to do?









: And this is how this whole cultural appropriation mess happened in the first place!


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## futurmama8 (Aug 15, 2008)

bumpity bump

great thread, seeing a lot of this (having blessingways) on MDC lately.


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## Cali2SC (Mar 16, 2009)

Thank you for sharing BellyMama.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Oh man

I just read this entire thread....all 14 pages and now that I am utterly exhausted and have to go cook some dinner I will say that I really enjoyed reading every post even the heated ones (ok especially the heated ones)









I enjoyed greatly learning about something that I was totally and utterly unfamiliar with. I had no idea there was even such a thing as a blessingway. I had a frilly stupid baby shower with lots of gifts, but the primary motivation behind that was that I couldn't afford all the stuff I need for DD and my fam was happy to help...I feel so unenlightened now!







:

I will certainly never use the word blessingway to refer to, well pretty much anything now except the actual dine ceremony or ritual, which I doubt I will ever witness! If certain members don't want it said no skin off my back. I have thought about it a lot but it basically comes down to a very superficial thought process for me...

"Ok so you don't want me to use that word for a babyshower or any kind of ceremony, cool! Thanks for the heads up"

Then again I think my brain is fried from trying to read this entire thing in one sitting!

Bump bump for one of the most interesting topics I have read about on here!


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## jimblejamble (May 18, 2007)

:


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *futurmama8* 
bumpity bump

great thread, seeing a lot of this (having blessingways) on MDC lately.









I just saw the one, and I think she's Navajo!

I wonder how this caught on... I've always thought 'sprinkle' was a fun word if you don't want a 'babyshower'


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## bioshannon (Apr 23, 2012)

Surprisingly, your statements about baptism aren't correct. Any baptized person can legitimately baptize another person, baby or not, including in the Catholic church. You don't need a priest, though one is encouraged. Same is true for marriage! This is from an official Catholic website:

While the Church has an extended rite of Baptism which is normally celebrated, which includes roles for both parents and godparents, the essentials of that rite are two: the pouring of water over the head of the person to be baptized (or the immersion of the person in water); and the words "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

Since the form of baptism requires just the water and the words, the sacrament, like theSacrament of Marriage, does not require a priest; any baptized person can baptize another. In fact, when the life of a person is in danger, even a non-baptized person-including someone who does not himself believe in Christ-can baptize, provided that the person performing the baptism follows the form of baptism and intends, by the baptism, to do what the Church does-in other words, to bring the person being baptized into the fullness of the Church.

I had no idea that this was true until my priest mentioned it in passing at a baptism yesterday. Really interesting.


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