# What would you do...



## Star (Apr 21, 2003)

... if some kid you didn't know came running up to your child in walmart, and hugged it and kissed it?

We were in walmart yesterday, and some kid, he looked to be about 4 or 5 years old, came running up to my child (who was in her stroller), grabbed her, hugged her, and planted a kiss on her forehead (i think it was her forehead - i was behind her and couldn't see). It happened so fast that I was just in shock and didn't know how to respond, and he went running down the aisle before I had a chance to.







:

Then his mother comes walking past with a friend, and when I look at them and frowned, they laugh and say he gives everyone kisses. WTF? How is that funny, and why would you let your child go around kissing stranger?? I'm very anal about germs and DD getting sick and this is bugging me to no extent.

I wish I could have said some smart remark to the mother, just to shut her up and make her think twice about letting her child hug and kiss people without permission. But, the most I did was wipe her face and hands very thoroughly with a wipe.









So, what would you do? How should I have reacted? Any good smart remarks? Am I over-reacting about the germs?

Edited to add: I have a very low immune system and I'm afraid DD might have it too. She is just getting over a cold, and since she hasn't got a flu shot this year, I'm overly paranoid about germs (doesn't help that I have OCD with germ & cleanliness lol).


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## CollegeMama (Oct 31, 2002)

I'm sorry Star, but I agree with CarrieBeary77 and her DH. I think it's perfectly fine for a young child to want to show affection towards other young children.


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## Moon (Nov 25, 2001)

I agree...you are overreacting. I'd be pretty happy if my kid had been on the receiving end of another little kid's happiness. And I'd be happy, too, if my kid was the one spreading the cheer. How loving and generous. Too bad there isn't more of that going on.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

I can see both sides.

I am very possessive of my personal space and would not want some stranger running up and kissing me.

But I'm also aware that that's MY hang-up and not necessarily my child's.

I'm not sure about the germs. I'm more concerned with clean hands than other people's kisses. As long as the child didn't kiss your daughter on the mouth, she's not likely to get sick from it.


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

The exact same thing happened to us...in a Walmart, no less. :LOL This grubby little boy came running up, and started kissing dd all over her face. I really wasn't sure WHAT to do, as it was the first time I had encountered it. Had he at least been clean, I don't think it would have phased me. I probably would have thought it was cute. But this kid was the Grub Prince, obviously had a cold due to the goobers running out of his nose, and was wiping himself all over dd (who was only 6 months old at the time). Luckily, his father came up and "rescued" me before I had a chance to really think about saying anything. He was apologetic, but I waved him off like it was no biggie. Honestly, what else could I do? Yell at him and tell him to control his 3 year old?







Kids are naturally affectionate towards babies.

Now, had it been a grubby ADULT that had come up and started smearing his boogies all over dd, I would have reacted a bit more harshly.


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## Kodachrome (Aug 18, 2004)

That is the sweetest thing ever .... Although my first reaction (for a split second) would be silently hoping the child offering the kiss and hug wasn't terribly sick with the flu or anything .... Above it all, I would find it so innocent and loving. That says a lot about the child's parents - I would have given them a positive remark on what a loving family and child they have.

But, that is just me


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## Ravenmoon (Mar 2, 2002)

My dd has cerebral Palsy and mild retardation and does things like that.She does not get it isn't right to love on everyone.As much as i would love to apologize to every person in line and at every store for whatever she may do it is difficult.Somehow i hope that people will pick up on the fact that some people are not normal and do not know or understand the normal boundaries.Most people don't though.A man at the bank yesterday who was so obviously autistic to me and was talking facts about strange things to everyone who would listen was getting very mean looks from people.I wish i could broadcast,Hey this man is just being himself.I hope this helps to open your perspective a bit.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I would not be okay if this happened to us. I think because I know my younger son has *huge* personal space issues, and gets very much freaked out when anyone, much less a stranger, chooses to invade his space. I would be upset because I would be worried about my child and his reaction.

But I wouldn't be concerned about germs. And I think I would just be amused if my son were not the way he is.


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## Gemini (Apr 9, 2003)

I'm with the OP one this one. There is no way I'd be okay with my dd running up to other kids and kissing them. I don't know what that kid has and who knows what my kid has! My dd has diabetes and gets very very sick when she catches something, so I don't want anyone I don't know doing this to my dd. I think it's really strange to let your kids run up to anyone to give affection. Only with people I know, not in a store with strangers!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I think you are overeacting. Kids are just so sweet and expressive, and I am sure that they didnt mean harm. Washing the face should be fine, but I have never been one to fret over germs too much. Dirt happens, germs happen ya know?


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## because (Sep 11, 2003)

Eeew! I'm with you, OP!

Now, if it were a cousin or a playgroup buddy or something it's just different. But a total stranger? I'm sorry, but the parents are doing that child a huge disservice by not teaching him the norms of our society. Not to mention germs.

The fear of icky strangers was one reason I kept DD in a sling most of our time in public until she was just too heavy.


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## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

I think the child was just being sweet too.

My child hates when kids do that to him though and he screams so I probably would have said "oh thats very nice of you to give him a hug, but he doesnt want a hug right now." If it happened in a split second though, I dont think Jevin would have screamed. LOL He only screams when the kids linger. LOL

I guess I dont worry too much about germs. He is exposed to lots of kids on a regular basis via playgroups, parks, our friends have kids....and they all share toys, etc so I figure a little smooch and hug wont hurt.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

awwwww, that is so sweet!








no, I wouldn't be upset. If my kid is going to catch somebody's germs, being in Walmart in and of itself is bad enough. Now cooties, well, that's totally different.







But DD isn't old enough to know about cooties yet :LOL


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## amyandelle (Jul 5, 2004)

Wow!

I am shocked at the lack of support here.





















Star, I am right there with ya!! I would have been very angry, annoyed and disgusted.

I think that it is apalling that this child of 4 or 5 years is running rampant in the Walmart







: If the mother could not control her child then she should have left him at home. It is not safe for a child of any age to be running around a store. And as for the mother laughing and saying he kisses everyone














I don't think that type of behavior would be tolerated in a school classroom if he were running up to all of the kids and kissing them. IMO it is a good idea to teach your children early to respect others and that includes their personal space no matter what age they are.
Amy


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

*


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyandelle*
Wow!
I am shocked at the lack of support here.





















Star, I am right there with ya!! I would have been very angry, annoyed and disgusted.

Well, the original poster did ask us what we would do, and if we thought she was overreacting. We answered.


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *because*
I'm sorry, but the parents are doing that child a huge disservice by not teaching him the norms of our society.

I agree with Carriebeary's hubby. This is the extremely sad part of our society. I hope that my children will be loving and affectionate, even if it means that they catch a cold. I think being nice begins in childhood, even toddlerhood and (imo) a large part of what our society is missing.


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## shishkeberry (Sep 24, 2004)

I'm sorry, but I thought it was cute. I wouldn't have been mad if another kid did that to my ds. Whenever I visit my mom at her work (daycare) the toddlers are always kissing ds. As long as they're not poking him or sticking their fingers in his mouth I don't mind. U I can see how it can be upsetting, but I'm not a germ-phobic kind of person. I guess I would rather kids kissing him instead of hitting or biting him.


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## yeah yeah yeah (Aug 8, 2003)

I'd giggle and blow it off. How likely is it to happen again? I mean, if you lived in a freakish town of pre-schoolers that ALL randomly kissed, then you'd have some reason to to be upset.

But, one incident in wal-mart? Don't sweat the small stuff.


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## Star (Apr 21, 2003)

Alrighty then. I see I'm overreacting. Thanks.







If it does happen again, I'm going to try to smile at the boy and say something sweet.

Btw, I do think kisses and hugs between kids are sweet, but not in this sitaiton. If he had actually asked if he could hug/kiss her then I might think differently. But the part that really irks me is how rough he was with her (he RAN towards her and she was pushed back into her seat). No matter what, though, I still feel I should have said something about how rough he was with a baby.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

hmm, I don't know. hugs maybe kisses, I don't know. I think I would be okay if it happened to an older child but I have a thing against strange hugs and kisses on my baby baby.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyandelle*
Wow!

I think that it is apalling that this child of 4 or 5 years is running rampant in the Walmart







: If the mother could not control her child then she should have left him at home. .
Amy









can anyone else just not WAIT until this mama has a 4 or 5 year old child????


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## shelley4 (Sep 10, 2003)

my dd often gets kissed/hugged by random kids, she loves it, they love it, she usually kisses back, it's all good. now, if it were an adult stranger, it would be different!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Star*
But the part that really irks me is how rough he was with her (he RAN towards her and she was pushed back into her seat). No matter what, though, I still feel I should have said something about how rough he was with a baby.

I agree with you here. Hugs and kisses between children are super-sweet. But, even at this young age, they should not be forced. My dd also has space issues, and would have been *screaming* if this had happened to her at any age older than 5 mo. She is 3.5 now, and would be screaming. No one has the right to hug or kiss my dd against her will--adult or child.


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## Greensleeves (Aug 4, 2004)

Sounds like yet another reason to stay out of Walmart.














:







:


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

Yep, overreacting for sure!
If another child was loving towards my child I would think it was cute and I would smile and laugh along with the other mother, not frown.


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## amyandelle (Jul 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
can anyone else just not WAIT until this mama has a 4 or 5 year old child????









Oh boy....

I wish you would have quoted the whole point that I was making. My point was that it is not safe for children to be running around stores. If that little boy ran so quickly down an isle how could his mama see him? He could get kidnappped, lost, or fall down and hurt himself or someone else. Obviously my dd is only 8 months old but my mom had my brother when I was 14 so I know what it is like to take a 4-5 year old shopping. It was challenging at times but I can assure you my brother was NEVER allowed to run through any store we ever took him to. If he started to get out of control we left the store.
Amy


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
can anyone else just not WAIT until this mama has a 4 or 5 year old child????









Yep! Sounds like the type who gives other parents dirty looks dureing mall tantrums.


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## amyandelle (Jul 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms. Frizzle*
Yep! Sounds like the type who gives other parents dirty looks dureing mall tantrums.

Yep that's me







: You hit the nail on the head







I AM that "type" Have they invented a name for it yet?
Amy


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

My DD is the one hugging and kissing everyone. I do nothing about it. It has nothing to do with me and is all about her. If she starts to feel uncomfortable then she can stop. She runs up to little kids and says *Friend! Friend!*. I would never want her to stop really. Her little heart just bursts with love for all these people.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Vote me in, I think it was an over reaction too. Children have a natural exuburance. I want my son to hold on to that as long as possible.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

I wouldn't have been concerned about the germ thing, and probably wouldn't have minded the hugging. But I do think I would have been annoyed at the parents reaction.

Here's why: I think a 4-5 year old is old enough to start to understand that people have personal spaces, and that you may not touch another person's body unless they want to be touched. That includes hugging and kissing and whatever else. This kid obviously didn't know you, so he would have had no idea if your daughter was receptive to being loved on.

If I were the parent of a hugger and kisser (a 4-5 yr old one) I would have said to you, "I'm sorry; we're still working on personal space issues." And then I would have spoken with my kiddo about how it is not ok to touch people unless they want to be touched.

My 3.5 yr old knows that he never has to hug or kiss anyone who asks for a hug or kiss, and that no one has the right to hug or kiss or tickle him if he doesn't want them to. It goes both ways, and he understands that. He may still make mistakes by tickling or hugging his brother or us when we don't want to be hugged or tickled, and that's ok, but I still talk to him about it and remind him of the rule. (You get to decide what happens to your body.)

So while I wouldn't have been too bugged out by it happening, I prolly would have wondered about the parent taking it so lightly. (Obviously, this is totally age specific response on my part. A two year old I would react totally differently to, as I would a child who was not able to be very socially aware yet.)

Kaly


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

I think a 4-5 year old is old enough to start to understand that people have personal spaces, and that you may not touch another person's body unless they want to be touched. That includes hugging and kissing and whatever else. This kid obviously didn't know you, so he would have had no idea if your daughter was receptive to being loved on.
























The thought behind the action might have been sweet and loving, but children do need to be taught to respect others.

I would have a big problem with it. My 2-year-old is contact reactive to dairy--he had his first ana. reaction when his very loving 4-year-old brother kissed him on the forehead after eating yogurt. If a strange 4-year-old came rushing up to my child and gave him a kiss after finishing his milk or cheese stick, we'd be using the epi-pen and calling an ambulance. Obviously, we take extreme measures when we're out in public. My baby stays in the sling and we're constantly ducking away from people. Why can't people keep their hands to themselves when they see a baby?? But, at least in the sling, I have more control over exposures.

Sure, we're an extreme case--but it's just another perspective.

Missy


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

I agree, Missy. I agree with Gemini and Zipperump LOL)

My dd would have been frightened by this, for sure. For me, I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with some exuberant adult stranger kissing and hugging me, so why would expect my child to be comfortable with it?


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## splendid (Jul 18, 2004)

Your feelings are valid, so I do not think you are over reacting. Maybe the better term would be surprised by the behaviour??? I think it is because we live in the times we do and don't see things like this any more that might have jarred you.

It would have freaked my ds out, since he likes personal space and doesn't like when strangers touching him, he would have asked why he got hugged. I don't know what you could have said to the parents, my reaction to your post is that you would have come of snarky since you were so surprised.

In any case, now you know there are little kids out there that give random hugs and kisses. Be prepared with a nice comment for next time.


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

As much as I love love







, I can see a few different sides of it. Putting the other shoes on & walking: If I was the mother of a 3 year old who was huggy, I would use that moment to show them, you have to be gentle with babies & you ASK before you touch.

I see this as a way to raise more respectful human beings...and to reinforce the idea that people's bodies are their own & you cannot force touch on anyone (a good thing for a male child to learn EARLY, IMO) ESPECIALLY since the OP said the child was ROUGH....this is not cute or endearing. It's an opportunity to teach kindness & gentle touching.

On the other hand, we don't want to raise our kids to be afraid to touch people and show their love...but when it's another kid you don't know, I think it'd be wise to begin to teach respect at age 3.

Amyandelle







you came off as "holier than thou" in your post, posts just don't translate feelings. It might've been that catchy "I find it appalling" thing. I can tell you are thinking of the child's best interests, and I'm with ya in that my 3 yo only gets a certain amount of space away from me in a large store. However, IME my 3 yo often has a will as strong as barbed wire. We have bad days. I think "control your child or leave them at home" may not be an option for some people. I do agree that the mama was slacking by not being close & missing a great moment--but sometimes we miss things.

Speculating on what kind of person Amy might be, Ms. Fizzle, is not becoming...and is kinda







judging the judger?

Can we talk about judgmentalism again? Please?









I'm gonna go ask Nemmer to make me a "stirring the pot" smilie :LOL


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## OwensMa (Apr 15, 2004)

I actually have to agree with the mamas who thought it was sweet.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

I think that a four year old is LEARNING things about personal space. As we all know, children learn by doing things over and over and over and over again. That would have been a perfect opportunity to tell the boy that although it's nice to hug, he must ask permission first. I mean come on...these are very young children we're talking about. Our aim shouldn't be to control them, it should be to teach them and maybe their parents too. Giving a dirty look does not teach anyone anything. Granted, you were taken off guard but maybe for future? Do you want the boy to learn that it is ok to give strangers dirty looks?


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

I think that a four year old is LEARNING things about personal space.
Exactly. And instead of dismissing it with a laugh, the boy's mother should have re-directed him.

Star said the child took off running before she had a chance to respond. She frowned at the mother, not at the child--and that was perfectly appropriate. Maybe it would have been a nice time for her to share her concerns about germs and her daughter's immune system. In my case, if the situation allows, I don't hesitate to explain why a simple touch could be dangerous. But, it is the mother's responsibility to help her child learn to respect others.

Missy


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon*
She runs up to little kids and says *Friend! Friend!*. I would never want her to stop really. Her little heart just bursts with love for all these people.

This brought a tear to my eye. What a little sweetheart!


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I think that's cute of the kid to hug and kiss a baby like that. Maybe antibacterial wipes and washes and all that are contributing to a weak immune system. Have you considered daily colloidal silver supplementation?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I don't think there is anything sad about a society that says EACH person gets to decide for themselves IF they want to be touched by someone else!

One's rights do not extend to the right to touch others. That has been estabished in our codes of conduct and laws for more than 1000 years.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Yes, it is cute...
in a two or three year old.
This kid was 4-5. It's time to learn some personal body space manners, no?
I don't know many 5 year olds, but I know a lot of 3 year olds and none of them would do this.
Oh, and I agree with missy








Kaly


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

my dd1 would have taught that little guy something about personal space! a blood curdling scream in the ear might do it. ehhhh.....she might not do blood curdling about that anymore, but she has definite personal space boundaries and being hugged by strangers crosses them big time.

i would be nervous about germs a little bit, but i am whenever we go to the park or see a kid with a runny nose at the playground or go to the toy store. i try to wipe the kids' hands off afterwards and try not to think about it anymore.

i agree that the 5 yr old should maybe hear that not everybody likes hugs all the time and it's nice to ask first if you can hug or kiss, but also agree that it's sweet to want to give hugs and kisses.


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

I think the OP was definitely overreacting.

Just this morning as I was dropping off my kindergartner at school and he was kissing his sister goodbye, one of his class mates ran up to us and also gave her a kiss. I thought it was so sweet. and it made my daughter smile.

It seems to me that there are a lot of posters on this board with very strong personal space issues, am I wrong?


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't see her overreacting. It was a totally strange, older, dirty child, it wasn't her kids' friends. I would be royally ticked if that happened my kid.


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

I don't know, a 4 year old should probably be learning about strangers and personal space. Some kids just really love babies, though. I mean, c'mon, even the old ladies at Walmart can't seem to keep their hands off the babies, so how could we expect a 4 year old to? :LOL

Maybe his Mom laughed at the time, but later on talked to him about the incident?

I guess this is one reason I love using slings and carriers, cuz I really don't like strangers touching my baby like that, either. But I think the OP may be overreacting a little bit.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmd*
It seems to me that there are a lot of posters on this board with very strong personal space issues, am I wrong?

I don't think I have strong personal space issues.

Ok, can we all agree that it is inappropriate for an adult to run up to someone they don't know and hug and kiss them? (Be it another adult or a baby.) At what point does it become inappropriate? At 7? At 10?

If it does become inappropriate at some point, then isn't it our job as parents to use the moment to teach? I just don't think natural consequences cut it when it comes to hugs/kisses/hitting type things. How many kids would have to be hugged/kissed/hit before the child learned from the natural consequence?

I'm not saying it isn't ok that the kid did this- he's learning to socialize. But I do think it's pretty crappy of the parent to ignore it. Just because this kid wants to hug/kiss everyone doesn't mean he gets to. Not his body.
Kaly


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmd*
I think the OP was definitely overreacting.

Just this morning as I was dropping off my kindergartner at school and he was kissing his sister goodbye, one of his class mates ran up to us and also gave her a kiss. I thought it was so sweet. and it made my daughter smile.

It seems to me that there are a lot of posters on this board with very strong personal space issues, am I wrong?

On Halloween, we went to eat at the Rainforest Cafe and as we were walking into the bathroom, a little girl dressed as Dorothy was walking out (with her mom) and she suddenly squealed and gave my daughter a huge hug and a kiss on the cheek. My daughter was surprised a bit but hugged her back. They smiled at each other and went their opposite directions. It was sudden and unexpected but adorable. The girl looked to be about 3/4. My daughter is 2.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

I would not be annoyed at all in that situation. I think the world needs more love.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

I don't have personal space issues. I do, however, have a weird obsession about keeping my kid alive. Our friends, even our acquaintances, know about the allergies and are very careful. Strangers, on the other hand, have no business touching my child. When my daughter was in public school, her friends were always hugging my other son--and that was fine--they were a part of our community; they weren't complete strangers. But, they, too, were aware of the baby's allergies and they kept an appropriate distance. The sling does keep him closer to me and away from tiny hands, but I also expect others--the adults at his level--to demonstrate common courtesy and not poke at my baby.

I hope that the OP's reaction gave that mother pause and led her to have a discussion with her son about respecting others and not invading their space.

Missy


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

never mind


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I haven't read all the replies, but I definitely think you're overreacting, and if you're very concerned about germs, carry some Handi-wipes so you can clean your child off after someone is nice to her.







And don't be rude to parents who have nice kids. Too many parents have mean kids.

Namaste!


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:

I hope that the OP's reaction gave that mother pause and led her to have a discussion with her son about respecting others and not invading their space.
Not to sound ornery but frankly if it had been my son who rushed up to some child yelling 'friend, friend" and gave the child a big hug and then dashed off I really don't think I would interpret the mother looking at me and frowning as:

"Gee- maybe her child has immune issues"
"She seems upset. Could she being thinking about the cold and flu season and the possible germs my child could have just spread?
"Maybe that child has personal space issues"
"Guess it times to talk to my son about respecting other and the importance of personal space"

A frown like that could be interpreted a thousand different ways

"Guess they are out of stock on xyz, again"
"Someone needs some coffee
"Great, another up tight mom"

Chances are I would chalk it up to another 'whatever" moment, if the frown even registered with me at all. Bottom line is complete strangers are complete strangers. They have little to no impact on anyone's daily life. By the time I caught up with my son, finished shopping and got to my car I don't think I would even remember the moment. And chances are if I did I would remember what my son did, not what the mother did. Frankly, a stranger does not have that kind of impact on my life.

Do you (general you, not directed at any one poster) think any one is really going stop what they are doing and try to teach a 4 yo a life lesson while said child is dashing around the stores? And if they have not been teaching their children respect, manners etc all a long I doubt one women in a Walmart, shaking their head and frowning, is going to get them to go home and start, KWIM?


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## magster (May 4, 2004)

OP, I chuckled reading your post. Be glad you don't live in Brazil, here babies and children in general are fair kissing game for everybody, young or old. I have grown used to it by now.

After having read some of the replies to your post, I can see, however, that some ppl might have very valid reasons for not wanting their kids kissed by strangers.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
And don't be rude to parents who have nice kids. Too many parents have mean kids.

Are you freaking kidding me?

To the op:
Having thought about it, I think my response to the kid would have been, "We really like to hug after we've know someone. What's your name?" And I would have gotten down on his level and talked to him. Of course, if he was off before I could say anything, I don't know. I probably wouldn't have said anything to the parent- although they might have said something to me because I would probably have been calming down my babe.

What doesn't everybody get about it not being ok to touch people unless you know they want to be touched?!?

I guess I'll go and spread the love by hugging and kissing the next stranger I see. Heck, maybe I'll throw a groping in for good measure.
Kaly


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## Mamm2 (Apr 19, 2004)

I think my initial reaction would be whoaaa!!! I live in a large urban city where people don't even look at each other. I also think a 5 yr old is a little too old to be running around kissing babies.

However, I would not have gotten as upset as the OP. It is still a child trying to be friendly. I try not to be a germaphobic. My ds goes to mommy and me, and mother goose, etc. He is constantly sharing saliva with other babies thru toys and playing, etc. As long as the child does not kiss my ds on the lips, etc. I would not have a meltdown.


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## starlite (Nov 7, 2004)

Live and let live!!!

Don't try to make toddler's act like adults and save the reprimands and discipline for important things!!! A five year old showing affection to a small stranger, like it or loathe it, is life. Better than old retiree's slobbering all over them like they do in my town ... and while I am concious of germs I am more concious of the importance of being able to express our warmth and love without being 'rejected' because of some mother's trip that adults shouldn't behave like that so why should a 5 year old?

You are over reacting and I hope you don't scold your kids if they kiss a strange toddler at walmart in the future! If they are still doing it as they approach puberty - then you should discuss this behaviour with them but don't make them feel bad for something so normal.

If you are worried about germs, then you will need to be hospitalised and live in a sterile bubble. You'd be safe ... but you wouldn't be living a quality of life. Think of germs as friends. A little exposure does alot for the immune system - even a weak one. You learn to tolerate more through exposure. Now I'm not saying that it is ok to eat off the floor or lick the toilet bowl but we are going to come into contact with people and most people do not have fatal diseases to spread. Especially at that age -4 or 5. One day your little one will be kissing willingly and you wont be able to control the exposure to germs, then. Or supervise the contact. Be more trusting, and less uptight about what is wrong and right. I would have agreed with you if this stranger had of attacked or threatened your child - but admonishing innocent love and affection untainted yet by adult connotations? I don't agree with your reaction - but I accept it, and your opinions are as valid as mine on this one.

I just hate to see that reaction cos kids are sweet and unpredictable and are nothing like adults in the way theythink. I love that about kids ... it's cute.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy*
But, it is the mother's responsibility to help her child learn to respect others.

Missy

I think it is the mother's responsiblitly to teach her child but it is ours to help little children along as well. He will, no doubt, come across someone who responds in a violent or otherwise completely innapropriate fashion to his space issues if, in fact, he has absolutely no guidance about this whatsoever. Better that it be done kindly by a stranger than not at all.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

"What doesn't everybody get about it not being ok to touch people unless you know they want to be touched?!?"
-Zipperump

This is where i am coming from.
*I* don't have personal space issues. My *daughter* does.
She doesn't want people touching her....she doesn't want aunts and uncles and neighbors and parent's friends hugging and kissing her on whim. She certainly doesn't want children she doesn't know wrapping her up in a big hug.

And, you know what? Her body, her choice.

I don't think that children hugging and kissing is problematic. If it is mutually desired, that is a wonderful, heartwarming thing! But children are individuals, and not all children are comfortable with this kind of intimate touch. And the *last* thing I want to teach my child is to ignore her discomfort with intimate touch, kwim? That is a big one, IMO.

IMO children should be taught to respect other people's bodies. We all accept that to mean no hitting or pushing. But, to me, it also means grabbing! Hugs should be offered (arms open), but not taken. I think that 3 yo is old enough to begin teaching that respect.


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

This is such an american attitude..

I have no problem with people being affectionate with one another.. Especially kids.. It is a very American attitude..

Warm Squishies..

DYan


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

Better that it be done kindly by a stranger than not at all.
Oh, most definitely. But the OP did nothing wrong. She did not respond negatively to the child; she responded to the mother. While it would have been nice if she'd had an appropriate response ready and waiting, she was caught off guard.

Quote:

Not to sound ornery but frankly if it had been my son who rushed up to some child yelling 'friend, friend" and gave the child a big hug and then dashed off I really don't think I would interpret the mother looking at me and frowning...:
First, the child didn't run up yelling "friend, friend" and rush off after a simple hug. He grabbed the baby, none too gently, and kissed her. Health concerns aside, that's scary to a little one. And based on the mother's casual explanation when she saw the frown, she understood that it was caused by her son's actions.

Quote:

And chances are if I did I would remember what my son did, not what the mother did. Frankly, a stranger does not have that kind of impact on my life.
But it's not, or shouldn't be, the impact a stranger has on your life. In this situation, it should be a realization of the impact your child could have had on a stranger's life. We don't live in an insular world; our actions affect each other and we need to be aware of that. And so yes, most definitely, a life lesson could have come out of that incident. A simple, "Oh, honey! I know you love babies, but she doesn't know you! You should just say Hi!" and maybe explain later that kind of enthusiasm could be scary. Or, reverse the health issue--"That baby could have been sick!" Kids absorb so much in a matter of seconds. If their actions aren't safe or appropriate, we need to take the time to talk with them. It would have been a great opportunity to teach or model respect for others.

Missy


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## wendymc (Nov 16, 2004)

Well, I hate it when people touch my daughter without asking, though I'm usually too shy/chicken to do anything about it. I'm fine with friends, relatives, folks in playgroups being social with her, but when strangers come up to her and grab her hands, it bugs me. Germs are a concern, as are food allergies (what if the kid/person just ate peanut butter?) as well as personal space.

I do think it's really cute when kids show joy and affection, and I'd hate to stifle that, but I do think some restraint is in order. What about teaching kids to ask if they can kiss the baby? Or asking "would baby like a kiss?" That way they can be joyfull and show affection, while communicating and respecting other people.

Lots of adults have personal space issues. If random strangers, men and women of different ages, came up to us in stores and hugged us, patted us on the behind, or gave us a kiss, I don't think the reaction would be 100% positive. Why don't babies and kids deserve the same respect adults expect from people?


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Well, I am SO not going to get into the main debate here :LOL

But I just wanted to quietly point out that assuming you have a generally healthy child, one good way to help ensure her immune system is strong is by not being overvigilant about germs. Our muscles get strong by being used, and our immune systems aren't any different


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:

What doesn't everybody get about it not being ok to touch people unless you know they want to be touched?!?

I guess I'll go and spread the love by hugging and kissing the next stranger I see. Heck, maybe I'll throw a groping in for good measure
Oh, come on. I think everyone here understands the need to respect personal space. But for freak's sake, we're talking about a little kid here! You and I are adults. We understand that you don't just walk up to everyone you see and give them hugs and kisses. A small child doesn't. Why are we trying to place adult expectations on small children? Doesn't that go against AP?

The OP's feelings are her feelings, and she has a right to feel them. But I really just don't think it's such a big deal. My DD just learned how to give hugs and kisses within the last few months, and when we go out, she likes to give kisses and hugs to other little kids. When we go to the playground, a lot of the bigger kids also like to touch her or give her hugs. It doesn't freak me out, it's just kids doing what kids do. We live in a world where so many kids are abused, there's so much violence and anger and hostility, so why are we lashing out against kids showing affection for each other?

And honestly, it's pretty hard to avoid germs. If you're really that worried about it, it's probably better that you not go out at all.


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## andi_3k (Oct 22, 2002)

Ok, it's a kid doing it....so when do other folk's rights kick in? Or do they loose their rights because a kid wants a hug.
I would have been put off to say the least...and my nephew, who is two, would have probably decked the kid...he does not like hugs and kisses from ANYONE,except mom and dad, and I think he has the righ to have his feelings respected and not shoved off because someone else wants to hug or kiss him. ( I think adults have the right to tell a kid, "no" also when it comes to hugs and kisses)
I don't think the OP was over reacting at all. People's bodies are their own and only they have the right to set boundries not every randome person that comes along, be it child or adult.


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## mmace (Feb 12, 2002)

The one thing you didn't mention, Star, is how your daughter reacted....Did she like the hugs and kisses or not? Just wondering...

I've been on both sides of this issue (and then some!). My oldest was like the little boy in the story, she would hug and kiss anyone she could get her little lips on and her chubby arms around! She would squeal with delight any time she saw a baby and be all over it like white on rice. Most people were amused, some people annoyed. By the time she was three or four I started to teach her about personal space, about not touching someone without their permission, about only talking to babies, not loving all over them without an okay from the mom or dad. She is still an extremely affectionate child. At eleven she is quick with a hug or a kiss if one of her younger siblings gets a boo-boo, she loves to cuddle up on the couch and read to her brother, and she is still willing to hold hands with her mommy. But she also understands personal boundries, and hasn't "groped" anyone at school or kissed any boys, or done anything like that. Luckily for me, you can teach a child when it is okay and when it's not okay to show affection to other people. And luckily for me, with her, I can have it both ways - that wonderful affection when it is appropriate, and the discernment to know when it is not.

My boy (he's six) would have freaked out if he was on the receiving end of those hugs and kisses in the OP's story. He would have screamed his head off and probably thrown a punch. He has *never* wanted other people to hug or kiss him, and even now he doesn't like kisses from anybody but his mommy. He will give kisses to his baby sister, but will wipe off kisses from his big sister and his grandparents. He always says "Your kisses are yucky, I only like Mom's kisses." But he is quick to climb up in my lap for a "hug fest" and is a very affectionate boy - but only on his terms. And you know what? That's okay too! I have no doubt that when he is older he will be perfectly willing to hug and kiss his wife and kids. There is no doubt in my mind that he is loving and kind, and that is what matters more than anything.

And my little lady is now 19 months old. She loves, Loves, LOVES babies, and I have no doubt that if she had the chance, she would kiss a baby from now until Christmas. But, since it is that nasty germy time of the year, I have taught her to blow kisses to people instead. It is absolutely adorable to see her sitting in the cart riding through Wal-Mart blowing kisses to random strangers, and the people on the receiving end of those kisses all seem thrilled. From small children to little old ladies, from businessmen to the biker she made friends with the other day, I've never seen anything but joy from those she has deemed worthy of one of her kisses. It seems to be a perfect compromise, she is free to "throw love" (that's what her big brother calls it) but I don't have to worry about it offending anyone else.

I do agree that it is sad that our world has become less affectionate. I am a very affectionate person, and I could kiss on my kids all day. And a random stranger groping me at the grocery store? If he's cute, I say bring it on! Oh sorry...I've been separated for 15 months now....kekeke

Please just remember that a child of five or six means no harm when he wants to kiss your baby. He is just showing love and affection, and even though I can totally see why you may not want him to kiss your baby, he sees no harm in it and would probably be devestated to know that you feel so strongly against it.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby*
But for freak's sake, we're talking about a little kid here! You and I are adults. We understand that you don't just walk up to everyone you see and give them hugs and kisses. A small child doesn't. Why are we trying to place adult expectations on small children? Doesn't that go against AP?.

We need to teach appropriate behavior, no? How is that against AP? How is it an adult expectation to respect other people's bodies?

If my dd were super affectionate with others (she is not), that would be sweet. I would not try to stop her from expressing her love. But I would gently teach her that babies must be touched gently (not grabbed) or they can get scared or hurt. And that we offer hugs to others--not grab them.

About the "American thing"....
are there not children outside of America who dislike being touched by strangers? (even strange children?) Or is it just uncommon to respect the wish not to be touched? Doesn't *that* go against AP?


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zipperump-a-zoomum*
Are you freaking kidding me?


Nope, not kidding. Too many kids aren't parented well and are therefore lacking in empathy, thoughtfulness, and social graces. I know lots of kids who would never think to hug and kiss others because they are too concerned about getting their fair share to spare some kindness on others, and I attribute that attitude to their parents' lack of good parenting.

Namaste!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
. I know lots of kids who would never think to hug and kiss others because they are too concerned about getting their fair share to spare some kindness on others, and I attribute that attitude to their parents' lack of good parenting.

Namaste!










I think I am done with this thread.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Ok, I'm not sure why you're so horrified with my perception. I see lots of threads here where people congratulate themselves on how "nice" (for lack of a better word) their kids are and then attribute that to the work they have put into AP parenting. If you give your kid what your kid needs, your kid is more likely to be emotionally healthy.

I do know a lot of parents who put themselves first most of the time and leave their kids emotionally lacking. Those kids are more likely to be self-absorbed and more concerned about getting their needs met than kids who feel secure and don't have to worry about whether their parents are going to be there for them.

I don't really see why you think this analysis is so strange.

Namaste!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Ok, I'm not sure why you're so horrified with my perception.

Because the assumptions are huge...and the conclusions are offensive.

Every child is different. Some children aren't touchy-feely--even AP'd kids! Some get really scared or upset when they are grabbed by other kids. My child, for instance.

My child is hugely empathetic. She is very concerned with the feelings of others. She is often very generous (will *give* her toys to her best friend...to keep!). Does she always share well? No, but she is learning. And she is generous in her own way.

She loves babies--and she touches them with the tips of her fingers. Not because of my instruction--she has never done more! She coos at them, professes her love in words, and remarks on their beauty, but she just isn't touch-feely.

And she *is* often physically affectionate with friends. But these hugs must be offered to her, or she offers them. Grabbing scares her. She has a friend (a 4 yo boy) who gets really excited and grabs her (wraps her up in a hug--very sweet!) when she goes to his house, and she gets anxious even the day before the visit. Will he grab me, Mommy? What do I do? I tell her that he is just excited to see her, and that she can come sit on my lap and I will explain that she prefers not to hug. But, believe me, it is a very real source of anxiety for her.

This is just the way she is.

The assumption that she is not emotionally healthy because she doesn't like hugs and kisses as much as some other children is offensive. As is the conclusion that she is that way because she was not parented well.


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## jenaniah (Nov 23, 2003)

I see both sides but I Have to ask...how do you know the little boy was really 4 and not just a big 2 yr old??? My nephew has always been very big for his age (at 2 looked more like a 4 or 5 yr old but acted like a 2 yr old) Nothing is worse then being out in public and having people expect him to act older then he is (he is 7 now and looks more like a 9 or 10 yr old) Also how do you know he didn't have special needs? It doesn't sound like he was being rough to hurt the baby more b/c he didn't understand HOW to be gentle (could be lack of parenting but it also could be that he is too young to understand) Oh and let me tell you...I HAVE a 4 yr old now and he doesn't always understand and respect other people...HE'S 4!!! He is still learning...do I talk to him about what is appropriate and what isn't...yes...would I get upset and scold him for doing the same thing...no and you can bet I wouldn't say anything if I got a dirty look from a parent for his actions...I'd probably give one back!

ETA - I do understand the issue with allergies...I have severe life threatening penut allergies myself


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
The assumption that she is not emotionally healthy because she doesn't like hugs and kisses as much as some other children is offensive. As is the conclusion that she is that way because she was not parented well.

Where did I ever say that your child (or any child) is not emotionally healthy because she's not touchy-feely? I never said or even implied that.

Namaste!


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
IAnd don't be rude to parents who have nice kids. Too many parents have mean kids.

Namaste!

I love that!!


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
We need to teach appropriate behavior, no? How is that against AP? How is it an adult expectation to respect other people's bodies?

If my dd were super affectionate with others (she is not), that would be sweet. I would not try to stop her from expressing her love. But I would gently teach her that babies must be touched gently (not grabbed) or they can get scared or hurt. And that we offer hugs to others--not grab them.

About the "American thing"....
are there not children outside of America who dislike being touched by strangers? (even strange children?) Or is it just uncommon to respect the wish not to be touched? Doesn't *that* go against AP?

I so agree with all of your posts, sunnmama. My children are not down with being touched by strangers, either.

I go out of my way to not physically coerce them into doing anything they don't want to- I don't wash their hair if they say no, they don't get hair cuts if they don't want them, they don't have to kiss or hug relatives if they choose not to. Why would I not want other people to extend them that same courtesy? I know this was just a kid, but I believe his parent should have used the moment to teach the kid that not all people like hugs and kisses.

To the other issues that have been raised: We can't know that the child wasn't 2, we can't know that he doesn't have a developmental delay that makes this a difficult boundary for him, so I've been going on the assumption that this was a 4-5 year old in the normal spectrum of development.

I don't think anyone is advocating "scolding" anyone. Just that it might be cool to model some more appropriate way to interact with total strangers, "Cute baby! Can I kiss him/her?" or even finger waving/face making whatever before a full on hug/kiss.

I think I've figured out why this bugs me so much.
One of my most visceral memories of first grade is being chased around the playground by Dan G. who wanted to kiss me. I remember the teachers on duty and recess monitors and bigger kids all watching and laughing. I ran for my life because I didn't want to be kissed, and not one of the adult people told this kid that it was not ok. Now, it was 1st grade, and we must have both been around 6 right? That is not so far away from this kids age. I remember it as a very humiliating, violating experience. And truly, I am not a big freak









Kaly


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zipperump-a-zoomum*
I think I've figured out why this bugs me so much.
One of my most visceral memories of first grade is being chased around the playground by Dan G. who wanted to kiss me. I remember the teachers on duty and recess monitors and bigger kids all watching and laughing. I ran for my life because I didn't want to be kissed, and not one of the adult people told this kid that it was not ok. Now, it was 1st grade, and we must have both been around 6 right? That is not so far away from this kids age. I remember it as a very humiliating, violating experience. And truly, I am not a big freak









Kaly

OMG! I have the same memory! Except it was Zach and Brian (yes, 2 boys chasing me at once--for the first and last time :LOL), and when I ran to the lunch lady for help, she said "I think they're kind of cute!". First grade, and I remember it like it was yesterday. Zach and I were actually friends in high school, and I've seen him since, and he remembers this incident, too!

Dharmamama--
Thanksgiving has come and gone, and I am filled with good food and good feelings and no longer upset about this thread. But, as explanation, this was the quote that I inferred to be critical of children who aren't "touchy-feely" (do not like hugs and kisses from random children):

"I know lots of kids who would never think to hug and kiss others because they are too concerned about getting their fair share to spare some kindness on others, and I attribute that attitude to their parents' lack of good parenting."

combined with this:

"If you give your kid what your kid needs, your kid is more likely to be emotionally healthy."

From my pov, I was interpretting: Kids who don't want to hug and kiss others have not had their needs met, and so are emotionally unhealthy.

If I misinterpreted, I am sorry.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:

We need to teach appropriate behavior, no? How is that against AP? How is it an adult expectation to respect other people's bodies?
How, exactly, is freaking out over something that a child did with good intentions, AP? If a young child's actions are met with dirty looks and disgust, what does the child get from that, other than shame and embarrassment? Teaching children lessons about respect isn't necessarily AP. Doing it politely is. You can just as easily smile and politely explain to a child that baby doesn't like to be hugged/kissed/touched.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby*
How, exactly, is freaking out over something that a child did with good intentions, AP? If a young child's actions are met with dirty looks and disgust, what does the child get from that, other than shame and embarrassment? Teaching children lessons about respect isn't necessarily AP. Doing it politely is. You can just as easily smile and politely explain to a child that baby doesn't like to be hugged/kissed/touched.

Gosh, this thread is all over the map. I think we need to start giving each other (as good, gentle, AP mamas) the benefit of the doubt....and I'll be the first to admit that I denied Dharmamama that benefit. Dharmamama--I apologize!
















Of course dirty looks are bad. No one is advocating that. Sometimes they just happen (reactionary thing), but definitely undesirable.

I *totally get* that children who like to hug and kiss other kids have good, loving, sweet intentions. And I understand that their parents think it is sweet, and don't want to discourage them from being affectionate.

And, of course I can explain that my child does not like to be kissed/touched/hugged--but only if the affection is offered instead of grabbed. If a small child (with the best intentions) just runs up and grabs dd (it has happened), she is already very upset. I was not able to adequately "protect" her. And she grows more anxious about social situations.

There is a middle ground here--I swear there must be. The *must* be a way to honor the affectionate, loving nature of your child while also honoring the cautious, reserved nature of my child.


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## whatever (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
can anyone else just not WAIT until this mama has a 4 or 5 year old child????









I was just thinking the same thing!


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## Star (Apr 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby*
How, exactly, is freaking out over something that a child did with good intentions, AP? If a young child's actions are met with dirty looks and disgust, what does the child get from that, other than shame and embarrassment?









I think you need to re-read my post, and then tell me where in it I said I freaked out or gave the child a dirty/disgusted look.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Wow. This is a tough one. I can see both sides. My dd would absolutely freak out and have a tantrum if a stranger of any age tried to touch her in any way. I certainly wouldn't hold it against a child if they came up to her being friendly though. Once, at the bookstore a little boy kissed dd's hand and she flipped. We had to leave the store. She was so upset it was just heartbreaking. The little boy's mom apologized, and we told her not to even worry about it. The kid wasn't even two years old. He thought he was being sweet. I wouldn't have a problem with it at all if dd enjoyed the affection. Since she doesn't, I just have to try to protect her from it and explain to strangers that she doesn't like to be messed with.


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

My dd is 5 and knows better than to grab,touch,kiss anyone's baby. I would be upset if any child did that to my baby.My ds is 2.5 and he knows not to do that as well.It is one thing with family and friends after asking ofcourse,but not with strangers.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

I think it's kind of cute, but I teach my own children not to touch or kiss someone unless the person on the receiving end wants it. I also teach them that it's OK if they don't want someone to kiss or hug, or touch them. But that's just me.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

How, exactly, is freaking out over something that a child did with good intentions, AP? If a young child's actions are met with dirty looks and disgust, what does the child get from that, other than shame and embarrassment?










Um, the OP didn't snarl or gag. She _frowned_ . At the _mother_. She didn't chase after the child, foaming at the mouth. Or snatch him up by his hair. I saw nothing in her post that indicated she even remotely "freaked out". She was, rightly so, uncomfortable. And it is her right and her responsibility to look after her own child, just as it is the responsibility of the other mother to teach her child to respect others. Otherwise, someone is eventually going to take a very un-ap approach in clearly demonstrating the consequences of violating another's personal space.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy*









Um, the OP didn't snarl or gag. She _frowned_ . At the _mother_. She didn't chase after the child, foaming at the mouth. Or snatch him up by his hair. I saw nothing in her post that indicated she even remotely "freaked out". She was, rightly so, uncomfortable. And it is her right and her responsibility to look after her own child, just as it is the responsibility of the other mother to teach her child to respect others. Otherwise, someone is eventually going to take a very un-ap approach in clearly demonstrating the consequences of violating another's personal space.

ITA with this post. I don't know that I would have felt great if it happened to one of my children, but I don't think I could have said anything to the mother. I probably would have frowned at her too.


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## lilgsmommy (Jun 21, 2004)

I personally would not be ok with it just because of DS life threating food allergies. Before I used to think nothing of it, but now I am very cautious as to who touches and hugs and kisses DS when we go out places.


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## Star (Apr 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CarrieBeary77*
well, originally, you posted that you gave the mother an evil look. Your words. The you edited it to say you frowned.

Yes, but minutes after posting that, I realized that was a typo (which was DAYS ago - way before that poster replied). But, what does that editing have to do with it? I asked where I said I freaked out on the CHILD or gave it an evil look?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CarrieBeary77*

Just keep in mind that kids will be exhuberant and affectionate. If you don't like it, sling your daughter or put her in a cart. (If she's big enough, she'll sit in it, if not, put the carseat in it.)


Are you kidding??? Our society make it clear that no one has a right to touch anyone who does not want to be touched. This is a GOOD thing. Every person should have the right to control what happens to their own body. While small children have some leeway, it is NOT for the mom of the kid who does not want to be touched to have to take action, it for the mom of the toucher to Stop IT!

Pleading that "society needs more love" or "kids are naturally exuburent" does not make your case. It is up to EACH person to decide how much "love" they want from someone else. AND Yes, A child might "exuberently" touch someone's person or property but a parent needs to make it clear that this is not ok unless they know that the person want this or they have asked first.


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

so the question is what would i have done? i would've got that child who did the kissing away from my child. yes, i wouldv'e removed him. and asked his mother does she plan on teaching him about personal space. i have a big issue with personal space. i don't like people hugging me, unless it is family.

I think its' gross. who knows where that kid has been and why he felt a need to kiss stars' child.

star, you were completely appropriate.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Living in Europe, I have to say that one thing I've noticed is that this "personal space" issue is very, very American. Here, people live on top of each other, kids walk hand-in-hand and kiss each other (sometimes on the lips even), I see kids 8 or 9 years old greeting each other with handshakes... the world is getting smaller and the population bigger. Better get used to human contact in America, too. At least it was an affectionate interaction instead of some kid hitting the baby. Totally overracting, imho. I've never seen such phobia against human interaction like there is in America.

P.S. I'm an American, btw, so I can say these things with impunity.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

I think it was sweet too. I think little kids are sweet when they show love to each other like that.


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## OwensMa (Apr 15, 2004)

Quote:

I think it was sweet too. I think little kids are sweet when they show love to each other like that.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Germs and, in our case, my son's LIFE aside, did you all even read the following??

Quote:

But the part that really irks me is how rough he was with her (he RAN towards her and she was pushed back into her seat).
That is not ok nor is it cute. Children are sometimes unknowingly rough with a little one, but it is not ok to brush it off with a laugh. Even children must learn that their actions can impact and even hurt those around them. And the littlest ones need to know that mommy's not going to stand around and giggle while they're being knocked around.

Missy


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

So I see that there have been some passionate responses to the OP, and I hope you won't be offended if I just respond to your initial question and not the succeeding issues folks have raised. The immediate question is very relevant for me, because my son seems to attract older children at the park, who often hug and kiss him. (he is a remarkably sweet looking little guy, I think.) He generally gets scared and cries a little when this happens. I would like him to feel comfortable and less shy with other kids. He is a little one still and he tends to get really excited when he sees other children but then to kind of hang back.

In general the other parents at the playground have been pretty good about telling their children "be gentle with the baby", etc. It's hard though. I don't think it's a sign of bad parenting if a child does this, but it is definitely _good_ parenting to monitor children's behavior and make sure they get information about how other children feel when their space is invaded.

I'm not particularly worried about germs. Now that he's getting bigger, I would like my son to feel more comfortable saying "no!" if he doesn't want to be touched. That's my main concern, to empower him to deal with other kids.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic*
the world is getting smaller and the population bigger. Better get used to human contact in America, too. At least it was an affectionate interaction instead of some kid hitting the baby. Totally overracting, imho. I've never seen such phobia against human interaction like there is in America.

P.S. I'm an American, btw, so I can say these things with impunity.


I hope the world never gets so "small" that people can't respect cultural sensitivities. And I hope that an individual's right to have control over their own body and who touches it is never taken away.


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## Star (Apr 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic*
Living in Europe, I have to say that one thing I've noticed is that this "personal space" issue is very, very American. Here, people live on top of each other, kids walk hand-in-hand and kiss each other (sometimes on the lips even), I see kids 8 or 9 years old greeting each other with handshakes... the world is getting smaller and the population bigger. Better get used to human contact in America, too. At least it was an affectionate interaction instead of some kid hitting the baby. Totally overracting, imho. I've never seen such phobia against human interaction like there is in America.

P.S. I'm an American, btw, so I can say these things with impunity.

I'm not American.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Well, I'll clarify a little bit before I get blasted again. The population is growing and "personal space" *is* getting smaller, we just don't see it as much in the US because it's such a huge country. The way we react to people "invading" our personal space is learned from infanthood. Kids naturally make new friends in minutes and are hugging and kissing on each other, which, to me seems so wonderfully sweet and uninhibited. As adults, we avert our eyes, avoid any contact with strangers and if we do, we feel that it's an invasion - and we naturally project this on to our kids. For example, over here, if you are a couple sitting at a table for 4 in a restaurant, they'll sit another couple at your table. In the US, this would never happen because it's an invasion of personal space. But kids in every country don't have hang-ups about this "space" issue and they are just showing their feelings. I would like to think that at least for a few years kids can just show affection without social repercussions, no matter where they live. Yes, it's important to be gentle, especially with infants, but I just think that it's good to let kids be kids, including letting them be affectionate toward one another.

My observation is that I see that they are much more laid-back about human contact as adults here than at home, likely because parents don't put limits on their kids' interactions such as what the OP wrote about. I'm not talking about purposely touching another adult (i.e. control over who touches your body,as maya mentioned), I'm talking about general "personal space" - crowded trains and buses and restaurants and stores. Anyway, as I am entitled to my opinion, I still think that it's over-reacting if one gets so upset when a strange child comes up to your child and shows affection. For me, it's just another example of the innocent, uninhibited actions that we eventually outgrow... a pure sweetness that's in all of us before we grow up, become jaded and put limits on our personal space.

It's just my opinion based on _my_ observations. I don't expect people to agree with my opinion, of course. That's fine. I'm just stating it.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I know that lots of people have expressed personal space concerns, and I understand them even if I don't share them. But to me, the main issue of this discussion is, how do you handle it when people behave in ways you'd rather they didn't?

My personal opinion is that living in this world requires give and take, and if you get up in arms every time someone does something you don't like, you're going to be up in arms most of the time. The kid kissed your daughter and was a little rough. Ok, but it's over now, and it probably would have been a lot easier to just acknowledge that it wasn't something you liked, shrug it off, and move on.

Also, I'm a little bit horrified by how judgemental everyone is being of this other mom, who explained that her kid always kisses people. People here assume that this mother has never ever talked to her kid about it and just lets him run wild doing whatever he wants. No one here knows whether that's the case. Maybe she is working with him every day on personal space issues and he's just not getting it. She doesn't owe that explanation to anyone. She's entitled to handle the situation publicly as she sees fit, and I think it's a shame that so many people are willing to jump in and assume the worst about her.

From the Buddhist perspective, the situation is exactly the same whether she and her son are working on personal space issue or not. You can choose to see the situation as what it was, a brief happening in your daughter's life, or you can make it into a a major issue that haunts you for a long time. I believe that it's better for our mental health to take the bad with the good and just ackowledge that living with other people means you can't always control what happens. I see so many people, bit at AMDC and IRL, trying to control other people, and it just creates more heartache and frustration for them. Flexibility is a virtue.

Namaste!


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## Simply Nurtured (Nov 6, 2004)

I can look at all sides nowadays...

But 20 years ago, I was a very naive new mama. Yes, I read as much as I could, did the CB classes, did unmedicated birth, did breastfeeding, etc. But I was still REALLY GREEN.

My baby was born at the end of November, and we had received gifts from people related to my husband's work. We were young and struggling. (The good 'ol days, you know...







) So when there was this holiday get-together, and we were invited and so was the baby, we went. And although the baby was in a quiet bedroom in the house where the party was, everyone kept going in to see him. And yes, touch, hug and kiss him...

Sooooooooo, at only 3 weeks old, this poor child had a bad COLD!!!
He had to sleep upright, usually on me, sometimes in the kangarockaroo, because he was all stuffed up.

So it should be no surprise to you, that when we had a second child 4 years later, NOBODY WAS ALLOWED NEAR HIM. And do you know what? This child did not catch his first cold until he was almost 2 years old. The main way I avoided people touching, etc. was to keep him cover with something. In a stoller, I draped the netting or a sheer blankie. In the carrier, I kept him close and covered most of his head with a soft flannel blankie or dipe. And then I pretty much did the same with baby 3, born 6 years ago and he was over 2 before he had a cold, and he has only had 3 colds.

Still, there were times when someone wanted to see the baby, sometimes it was an adult, sometimes it was a child. I would smile my sweetest smile and move away.

Realize that I am one of the world's most affectionate people, I am a hugger. My kids are all huggers. And oh, yeah, they tried to hug babies when they were 3,4, 5 years old. My last one would always try to "pet" babies on the head. Now he doesn't go near them, and acts "shy". New phase.









I am also a believer in old-fashioned handwashing.

So I have seen it from both sides.

You asked "what would you do?" We are all different people, unique individuals, not cookie cut-outs, so we all react differently. If it happened to me, I would have just smiled, said nothing, and go scrub the baby.

You did what you thought was right at the time.


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## Mamm2 (Apr 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic*
Living in Europe, I have to say that one thing I've noticed is that this "personal space" issue is very, very American. Here, people live on top of each other, kids walk hand-in-hand and kiss each other (sometimes on the lips even), I see kids 8 or 9 years old greeting each other with handshakes... the world is getting smaller and the population bigger. Better get used to human contact in America, too. At least it was an affectionate interaction instead of some kid hitting the baby. Totally overracting, imho. I've never seen such phobia against human interaction like there is in America.

P.S. I'm an American, btw, so I can say these things with impunity.


I totally agree. I am Hispanic, and boy are we a touchy feely group of people. Sometimes I feel uncomfortable because I was born here, but I understand that in their culture this is normal.

My point? I do think that personal space is an American issue. I know that was not a factor in the OP's situation, but just pointing it out.

I guess if this would have happened in another country, this thread would have never been started.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Wow! This thread *is* all over the map. I am really amazed at all the different passionate answers. I don't know how I missed this for so many days.

To the OP: to answer your original question- if you truly have OCD and were not joking about it then it is difficult to say. You have an unique situation and probably need professional help in handling it. I would guess that carrying wipes is probably helpful, as you mentioned. Also, as has been suggested, keeping your child up out of others' reach. There is no way that you can change others' behavior, in spite of the ranting and raving in this thread, so *you* must adapt. You can only control how you respond and wiping your dd's head and hands is a way to keep her from getting whatever germs the other child may have transmitted. You should know, though, that there are studies that show that too much antimicrobial stuff actually increases the number of resistant bugs and your chances of contracting something truly dangerous, not just a cold.

If you do not have a true personality disorder then maybe you just need to relax a little about germs, realizing, as others have mentioned, that some exposure helps strengthen the immune system. There are several herbal and dietary supplements that will also help, along with plenty of rest, hydration, handwashing, a positive attitude, laughter, spirituality, etc. Unless you homeschool and avoid gatherings of other people of any kind, your child will eventually be exposed to germs and have her fair share of colds, etc.
As far as what I would do, I would not have reacted that way. I would have smiled rather than frowned at the other mother. I might have struck up a conversation with her. Perhaps there would have been an opportunity to tell her something about my child's unique situation if that were the case. She does react anaphylactically to cashews, but it is such a slim possibility that someone will kiss her after eating them, that I choose not to let worry and stress about take a toll on myself or her. Worry and upset can be just as damaging, if not moreso, than colds or allergy symptoms. So far, I have just made a general announcement at parties where there are likely to be nuts.

Just last night we were at older dd's Christmas program. My 20 month old was, of course, not going to sit quietly through the whole thing. She wandered up the aisle and was interacting with the children sitting in front of us. One of them offered a graham cracker. I cringed just a little, but thought better of it. I felt that generosity, sharing, good feelings, etc. were better preserved. If I had intercepted I would surely created bad feelings, and not necessarily prevented anything bad as far as dd's physical health. As far as personal space goes I did a little experiment to see what they would do if she invaded theirs. To my amusement the one little boy, probably about 8, just lifted her up under arms and deposited her back out into the aisle when she crept too far into their seating area.
She also received hugs and kisses from another toddler. That child's mother also laughed and said "She wants to hug and kiss everybody." I laughed, too, and we chatted a few minutes about our dd's and their different personality traits. I think if the other child had been older, bigger, rougher, etc. I might have squatted down next to dd and helped her deal with the situation. I think that while our children definitely have hard wired personality traits, they also gauge their responses by our own. When they fall, if we do not get overly upset and rush to them, we may see them pick themselves up and keep going. If they get a rough hug that surprises them and they whimper a little (or even shriek!) and look to us to see how we respond, we can say "It's okay. Did that surprise you? He is very happy to see you! Do you want to hug him back? Or would you rather shake hands? Or maybe Mama can hold you while you talk with him." You could also speak to the child and ask him to blow her a kiss (LOVE that idea!) or to just touch her feet. I realize that in your case he ran off quickly, but you could still respond to whatever your daughter was doing. And in response to his mama you could have told her whatever pertinent information is appropriate. Like she has a weak immune system, or you hope her child is healthy, or whatever.

Really, though, I think your best bet, barring tempering your own response to the germ issue, is to keep her out of the line of fire. Keep her out of WalMart altogether or keep her up out of the way in a cart or sling.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sofiamomma*
I think that while our children definitely have hard wired personality traits, they also gauge their responses by our own. When they fall, if we do not get overly upset and rush to them, we may see them pick themselves up and keep going. If they get a rough hug that surprises them and they whimper a little (or even shriek!) and look to us to see how we respond, we can say "It's okay. Did that surprise you? He is very happy to see you! Do you want to hug him back? Or would you rather shake hands? Or maybe Mama can hold you while you talk with him." You could also speak to the child and ask him to blow her a kiss (LOVE that idea!) or to just touch her feet. I realize that in your case he ran off quickly, but you could still respond to whatever your daughter was doing. And in response to his mama you could have told her whatever pertinent information is appropriate. Like she has a weak immune system, or you hope her child is healthy, or whatever.

I don't know how helpful this was to the OP, but I found it very helpful for me in my situation. It's about what my approach was, but I like the particular way you frame what to say to your dc. I feel a lot more comfortable than the OP did talking to another parent about what their child is doing, most of the time. I have always felt okay about talking to children, I think I'm pretty respectful, though I work on that too. But I really struggle with a way to validate my child's feelings without also somehow saying that he _should_ be afraid of other children.

It's a tricky balance.

I did find this a good thread for understanding other parents' perspectives on this issue.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
But to me, the main issue of this discussion is, how do you handle it when people behave in ways you'd rather they didn't?

That is interesting, and helps me to understand the other pov better. From my perspective, the main issue of this discussion was, should children be taught (gently, of course) to respect the bodies of others...including affectionate behaviors.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Also, I'm a little bit horrified by how judgemental everyone is being of this other mom, who explained that her kid always kisses people. People here assume that this mother has never ever talked to her kid about it and just lets him run wild doing whatever he wants. No one here knows whether that's the case. Maybe she is working with him every day on personal space issues and he's just not getting it. She doesn't owe that explanation to anyone. She's entitled to handle the situation publicly as she sees fit, and I think it's a shame that so many people are willing to jump in and assume the worst about her.

I never thought this at all. Your are right: we have no idea about how this mama is handling the issue, or even what the child's true age is! But I am so surprised that that so many mamas here on MDC see this as a positive behavior (grabbing another child in a hug). Many mamas here have made it *clear* that they think this behavior is sweet, and would do nothing to discourage it. I am reading it, and believing it, but not really understanding it









More on my perspective: my dd has SID, with tactile defensiveness. Unexpected touch can be received by her nervous system as an assault--and she goes into fight or flight response. *I've* been smacked for kissing her too suddenly. So that explains a lot about my pov, I guess. But I didn't include that info on this thread before, because I don't think it should really matter that she has a disorder. All that should matter is that she does not want to be touched. That *should be* her choice. I just think that should be taught at a young age, but it seems that many don't share my opinion


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

I just wanted to add my $0.02 - I have no problem with another child hugging and kissing my dd. I think it's sweet.

Buuuttttt.... if they are rough, and she's scared I will ask them to give gentler hugs and touches. And - a snotty nose is a deal breaker. If some kid leaking mucous all over the place is hugging my dd, I wanna say (but don't!) hands off!

I just don't want my child exposed to more viruses than absolutely necessary.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilgsmommy*
I personally would not be ok with it just because of DS life threating food allergies. Before I used to think nothing of it, but now I am very cautious as to who touches and hugs and kisses DS when we go out places.











We have an adult friend with nut allergies who was in the hospital for days as a toddler, because another child ... a stranger to her family ... with peanut butter smeared on his face ran up to her on the street and gave her a bear hug.

Sounds cute. But it doesn't always work out that way.

Anyway, agreeing with posters who pointed out that in a toddler it might be cute, but at 4 or 5 maybe children should be learning boundaries. But then again, since we've been working on our own DS#1's quite real boundary issues, perhaps I'm a little less tolerant than I might be otherwise.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Wow, Star, what a can of worms you opened up!









This is how I have handled unwanted affection of my babies (for everyone jumping down Star's throat over her "reaction", keep in mind her baby is right around a year old, so hardly able to defend himself). I try to be very aware of my environment. This is just general good safety, but it also lets me see affectionate kids ahead of time. If a child approaches my baby, I usually step in front of the stroller and place myself bodily between the oncoming exuberant child and my baby. I usually squat down on their level and smile and say, "Please don't kiss the baby, but you can wave to her and say hello." If need be, I'll put an arm out to prevent the child from getting at my baby.

I am gentle and friendly, but protective of my baby. It is my job to protect her space right now, and my job to be the intermediary for all contact with her. If someone wants to get at my baby, they have to come through me. This does not mean I have to be unpleasant, or rude, or stifling to a child's affection. It does mean that I won't let anyone (child or adult) overwhelm my baby while she is strapped into a stroller, defenseless (she's not because she has me). If they ask, I will usually let them stroke her hand, hand her a toy, or something. If they seem ill or too energetic I will smile and gently say, "Maybe another time."

It is sweet when children show affection for babies and other children. No one is saying otherwise. But children need to be shown (gently) how to appropriately express that affection.

As far as this being an American thing. Whatever. I live in America, and play by American rules. It doesn't make sense for me to play by European, Brazilian, or Chinese rules, because that is not the culture I am living in.







It's a non-sequitor, as far as I'm concerned.

Bec


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## starlite (Nov 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby*
Oh, come on. I think everyone here understands the need to respect personal space. But for freak's sake, we're talking about a little kid here! You and I are adults. We understand that you don't just walk up to everyone you see and give them hugs and kisses. A small child doesn't. Why are we trying to place adult expectations on small children? Doesn't that go against AP?

The OP's feelings are her feelings, and she has a right to feel them. But I really just don't think it's such a big deal. My DD just learned how to give hugs and kisses within the last few months, and when we go out, she likes to give kisses and hugs to other little kids. When we go to the playground, a lot of the bigger kids also like to touch her or give her hugs. It doesn't freak me out, it's just kids doing what kids do. We live in a world where so many kids are abused, there's so much violence and anger and hostility, so why are we lashing out against kids showing affection for each other?

And honestly, it's pretty hard to avoid germs. If you're really that worried about it, it's probably better that you not go out at all.


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