# Do carseats disintegrate on the day of expiration?



## fizzymom (Nov 20, 2001)

Well, we just got out our infant seat to see if we could manage to put all 3 kids in the middle row of our car and checked it for recalls/ expiration... and discovered that it expired *LAST MONTH.* It is a Primo Viaggio, 5 years old and was only used for 6 months before DD outgrew it. It has never been dropped or even set down hard. I was hoping to skip a new infant bucket this time around because I know that we won't be using it for more than a few months.

WWYD?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Nope, don't use it. An expired seat is an expired seat, no matter how long ago the date has passed. Here is a great video showing a crash test of an expired Britax seats. Expiration dates are there for a great reason


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## alysmommy2004 (Jun 23, 2006)

I wouldn't chance it. There could be internal damage that you're not seeing. I would either get a Scenera or Radian and skip the bucket, see if a friend or relative has a safe bucket you can borrow for awhile, or just purchase a new inexpensive one, such as the baby trend flex loc.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Don't use it. Expired=not safe.


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## fizzymom (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alysmommy2004* 
I would either get a Scenera or Radian and skip the bucket, see if a friend or relative has a safe bucket you can borrow for awhile, or just purchase a new inexpensive one, such as the baby trend flex loc.

A convertible just won't work,they are too wide. Even most of the buckets are probably going to be too wide. We bought this bucket because it was one of the narrowest available. DS swam in the first one we had and DD was skinnier that he was.

*sigh* I guess I'm just feeling frustrated and even a bit punished for taking so long to get pregnant this time around.







(... apparently I am having some issues.)


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Are you doing three across?


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## fizzymom (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Are you doing three across?

Yes, if at all possible.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Ahhh I see.

If you can get a primo viaggio in there, you can get a Radian in there


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## alysmommy2004 (Jun 23, 2006)

Yep, the Radian is the most narrow convertible, so most likely what you'd be moving to after the bucket anyway if you want to keep three across. Plus, the slots are low enough for a newborn to use it.

If you do want a bucket though, the Baby Trend one is one of the most narrow on the market so that might be an option (plus, it's pretty inexpensive). I have a Keyfit 22, which is also pretty narrow, I can get it in the same small spaces I can get my Radian.


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## leighann79 (Aug 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Nope, don't use it. An expired seat is an expired seat, no matter how long ago the date has passed. Here is a great video showing a crash test of an expired Britax seats. Expiration dates are there for a great reason









Thanks for that video! I sent it to my family to get the message through better.


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## fizzymom (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Ahhh I see.

If you can get a primo viaggio in there, you can get a Radian in there









The problem isn't so much the external width, we can work with that. The problem is that my babies are skinny and even in a five-point harness their bottoms slide sideways in most carseats- I don't know if that makes any sense. What I need is an _interior_ that is narrow.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I understand what you are saying







. In a correctly tightened harness that shouldn't happen even with the skinniest of skinny babies









However Sunshine Kids' makes a GREAT infant insert that really cradles the baby in the Radian


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## naturegirl (Apr 16, 2002)

Can someone tell me where they post the expiration date on the Britax roundabouts? I have a newborn coming that I thought I would use the seat with but it is at least 4 years old. (Still using it with ds) I want to get a new seat for him but am wondering if I need to get 2 ordered...

Thanks!


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *naturegirl* 
Can someone tell me where they post the expiration date on the Britax roundabouts? I have a newborn coming that I thought I would use the seat with but it is at least 4 years old. (Still using it with ds) I want to get a new seat for him but am wondering if I need to get 2 ordered...

Thanks!

Hi Cheryl







The Roundabout label will be in one of two places. The newer models have them on the outer shell of the seat, near the child's left ear. Older versions will be underneath the cover, in the actual seat area. I'm guessing that yours will be the later, since that is where the label is on my 4 yr old Roundabout. It was pretty bad design, since with any sippy cup spills or leaky diapers the label gets wet and the ink runs. One word of caution, though: the Roundabouts (or any Britax convertible, for that manner) is not usually suitable for newborns. For rear-facing, the baby's shoulder must be within an inch of the bottom slot. Most average-sized babies don't fit properly until around 2 months or so.


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## FillingMyQuiver (Jul 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I understand what you are saying







. In a correctly tightened harness that shouldn't happen even with the skinniest of skinny babies









However Sunshine Kids' makes a GREAT infant insert that really cradles the baby in the Radian









Have to agree w/ ThreeBeans. We got the Radian65 for DS when he was about 3mo old b/c we needed to move DD up to her Regent. We also bought the Sunshine Kids infant insert and are still using it for DS and it really cradles him nicely and gets him in the right spot when we put him in his seat.

And if there is ANY concern about external width, let me say that the Radian enabled us to get 3 carseats across the back of our Jeep Grand Cherokee, 2 Regents and the RFin Radian65.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

OP - No! They do not disintegrate. I would use that carseat. Good luck!


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## FillingMyQuiver (Jul 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
OP - No! They do not disintegrate. I would use that carseat. Good luck!

While I would slightly agree if you needed the seat tomorrow for a week or whatever, seeing that your siggie says you're pg, I'm imagining it will be a few weeks before you need it. And if you plan on using it for "a few months" (let's say 4), that would put you about 6 months past the expiration by the time you move your babe into a convertible.

Personally, I would NOT be comfortable w/ that. BUT, as a parent, you need to make that decision. The manufacturers give expiration dates for a reason. There is no way of knowing if the temp changes while being in storage could have affected the plastic or webbing or foam. There's no way of saying for sure your seat could safely restrain your child.

Not to mention the fact that, if you were in an accident, and the seat was installed properly, and the child was properly restrained, but the seat still failed, the manufacturer would have NO responsibility b/c you were using an expired seat.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
OP - No! They do not disintegrate. I would use that carseat. Good luck!

Check out the video. They DO disintegrate. But not usually until there's sufficient force applied... such as in an accident. Maybe it's still safe the day after, or the month after... but you can't test it.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

The thing with these car seats is that you you feel hustled by the manufacturers. Make a car seat that lasts, damn it. Or make built in car seats an option on new vehicles.

Whatever. Don't take any chances. Get a new seat.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

PP has a 5 yr expiration..sorry. If you were talking like a few days, even weeks past the expiration..but MONTHS? just too big a risk, and not worth it. It's really too bad you have a PV, all the pother infant seats on the market have a 6 yr expiration.

however, you can put a rolled up receiving blanket on either side of the baby to keep the baby planted firmly in the middle of the seat, even in a large convertible seat.
here is a pic of what i am talking about. It is a graco convertible, with a 1 week old newborn in it
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...0_182125AA.jpg

and like a pp said, in a correctly snug 5-pt harness, it really wont matter how thin or small your child is. Even though you migth *feel* better about your child have soft cushy padding around them, in a collsion, its the harness taht is going to keep your child safe. And regardless, as has been pointed out, lots of carseats have special infant inserts these days, which will "cradle" your infant even if they are quite small.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
OP - No! They do not disintegrate. I would use that carseat. Good luck!

You would be breaking the law (in most states) and putting a child at risk of ejection in a crash situation.

It would be *better*, IMO, if they did disintegrate -- then the internal damage and deterioration would be visible. Since they do not disintegrate, people use them or advise other people to use them, and that's dangerous.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

They may not disappear in a cloud of dust but we know they degrade over time. After X amount of time the seat WILL be completely useless in a car accident.

Some advice is being offered by people who have expressed opinions that are basically counter to everything we know about physics and car accidents, so it should definitely be taken into account that these people may not care particularly about your child's safety.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

chickabiddy said:


> You would be breaking the law (in most states) and putting a child at risk of ejection in a crash situation.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> It is NOT against the law to use "expired" carseats. I'd love to see a source, please.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

vbactivist;11402000
It is NOT against the law to use "expired" carseats. I'd love to see a source said:


> Chickabiddy is correct. Many if not most states have a 'proper use' clause. Meaning if you use a seat against the manufacture's recommendations you can be cited and if your child is injured you can be criminally charged.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Chickabiddy is correct. Many if not most states have a 'proper use' clause. Meaning if you use a seat against the manufacture's recommendations you can be cited and if your child is injured you can be criminally charged.


source please.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

You can google them as easily as I can. If you were really interested in being educated, I would help you out. But I'm not wasting time with someone who just wants to antagonize and offend.


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

Why risk it. I would buy a new infant seat and when I am done, sell it on Craigslist. You and I might not buy a used seat, but lots of people do and as long as you know it hasnt been in a crash you can feel fine about it. I sold one there a few months ago.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
You can google them as easily as I can. If you were really interested in being educated, I would help you out. But I'm not wasting time with someone who just wants to antagonize and offend.

I honestly am not trying to antoagnoize anyone. I just truly believe that there is way to much emphasis put on car seat usage these days.

I am stating my personal opinions and experiences, not claiming that certain things are "laws". I googled your statement and did not come up with anything. I have never ead that using an expired carseat is beeaking any law.

NAK


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

In states with a proper use clause, it would indeed be breaking the law, like 3B and Chickabiddy said.

For example, here is Washington's proper use clause:

Quote:

The restraint system must be used correctly according to the car seat AND vehicle manufacturer's instructions.
It doesn't say anything about the expiry date directly, but it is addressed in the car seat manual. For example, Dorel seats are stamped on the bottom "DO NOT USE PAST XX/XX/XXXX" so using it past this date would be going against the manufacturer's recommendations and would thus be breaking the law.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
In states with a proper use clause, it would indeed be breaking the law, like 3B and Chickabiddy said.

For example, here is Washington's proper use clause:

It doesn't say anything about the expiry date directly, but it is addressed in the car seat manual. For example, Dorel seats are stamped on the bottom "DO NOT USE PAST XX/XX/XXXX" so using it past this date would be going against the manufacturer's recommendations and would thus be breaking the law.

Interesting. What if you have a seat that is so old as to not have an expiration date? I am not kidding here, but my friend has a seat that is at least 18 years old, and she still uses it. Also, 2 years ago when they changed the law in my state to say that all children age 8 and under must be in a booster, I called the police dept to ask about it. They said, they would pull someone over just because they saw what looked like a younger child not in a seat, but they may give a ticket for that if they pulled one over for some other violation. The police officer said it really was up to each officers discretion. Has anyone ever been fined/ticketed for using an expired seat, that you know of? I have never once heard of that happening.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Whether or not it has a stamped expiration date, it will still expire 6 years (in general, some manufacturers specify 5 and some state 8) from the date of manufacture. IME, police officers just see that a child is in a child safety seat and don't actually inspect the seat to get a date of manufacture or anything off of it. Foreign seats, for example, are illegal too, but 99.9% of police officers wouldn't know one if they saw one.


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## alysmommy2004 (Jun 23, 2006)

I seriously doubt anyone has ever been fined or ticketed for using an expired seat. In most cases that would involve removing the carseat to find the expiration date since most of them are stamped on the bottom.

This is all I need to see to know that it's not safe to use an expired seat:


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## AutumnMama (Jan 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
Interesting. What if you have a seat that is so old as to not have an expiration date? I am not kidding here, but my friend has a seat that is at least 18 years old, and she still uses it. Also, 2 years ago when they changed the law in my state to say that all children age 8 and under must be in a booster, I called the police dept to ask about it. They said, they would pull someone over just because they saw what looked like a younger child not in a seat, but they may give a ticket for that if they pulled one over for some other violation. The police officer said it really was up to each officers discretion. Has anyone ever been fined/ticketed for using an expired seat, that you know of? I have never once heard of that happening.

I wish that would happen, I know a couple of moms that are using seats that are _at least_ 15-20 years old (and improperly at that







), but they just don't seem to care.

Makes a few months seem like less of a big deal.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
For rear-facing, the baby's shoulder must be within an inch of the bottom slot.

This depends on the carseat. For Marathons and Boulevards, Britax specifies that the infant should be within one-half inch (lowest slot height is 10"; minimum seated shoulder height for those models is 9.5").

In the case of the Roundabout, they actually specify the minimum seated shoulder height as 10.5", even though the minimum slot height is also 10".


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
I honestly am not trying to antoagnoize anyone. I just truly believe that there is way to much emphasis put on car seat usage these days.

I am stating my personal opinions and experiences, not claiming that certain things are "laws". I googled your statement and did not come up with anything. I have never ead that using an expired carseat is beeaking any law.

NAK

Others have provided examples. Many states have proper use clauses, which means that you must use carseats in accordance with manufacturer's directions. Most carseats expire after six years. For seats that do not have dates specified, NHTSA has set a ten-year expiry.

Motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for children (actually, all people aged 1 to 34). Using car seats and seatbelts properly saves lives. I'm still sharing a bed with and nursing my 6-year-old: I understand and respect attachment parenting. But I want to parent my child, not mourn her. Keeping my child alive is the most basic thing I can do for her. And if keeping her alive means making her mad -- not abandoned or neglected, because I'd be talking to her and reassuring her while she stays in her carseat -- then she'll just have to be mad, so she can stay alive for me to make up with her later.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
This depends on the carseat. For Marathons and Boulevards, Britax specifies that the infant should be within one-half inch (lowest slot height is 10"; minimum seated shoulder height for those models is 9.5").

In the case of the Roundabout, they actually specify the minimum seated shoulder height as 10.5", even though the minimum slot height is also 10".

Where did you find that?


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Where did you find that?

www.britaxusa.com, under Products, choose Marathon, Roundabout, etc. It's all there (minimum seated shoulder heights and strap heights are both listed).


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Their manuals say nothing about minimum shoulder height.

ETA: I find it really weird that they list the max shoulder height as 16", but the top slot at 16.75" (MA).


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Their manuals say nothing about minimum shoulder height.

ETA: I find it really weird that they list the max shoulder height as 16", but the top slot at 16.75" (MA).

i had to go look..and it DOES
try going here to see the chart
http://www.britaxusa.com/products/pr...ail.aspx?ID=10

it says 10.5 - 15

for the Ma, it says 9.5 to 16
huh.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
OP - No! They do not disintegrate. I would use that carseat. Good luck!

termites eat wood from the inside. most ppl dont see it until their deck collapses.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
source please.

others have provided information, correctly. anyone who is interested can google car seat laws.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
OP - No! They do not disintegrate. I would use that carseat. Good luck!

This is incorrect & will cost the child's life.

They are made of plastic & metal. Metal deteriorates *over time* as does the plastic. The specific type of plastic used is the same we use to make our post-operative prostheses in my family's business. My father is a past president of the American Academy of Orthotists & Prosthetists. Based on his research, he only allows our products to be used for a maximum of 1 year. Our products are thinner than carseats because people must wear them during physical therapy, but they do indeed begin to deteriorate over time. You do not want to find out during a crash that your decision to stay frugal cost your child's life









It's not just about the companies making $

It's about reducing their liability because an expired carseat does fail to protect the child properly during the violent force of even a "minor" crash.

It all comes down to CORRECT USE, which means always following the manufacturer's instructions.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Nope, don't use it. An expired seat is an expired seat, no matter how long ago the date has passed. Here is a great video showing a crash test of an expired Britax seats. Expiration dates are there for a great reason









Wasn't that a strap malfunction, couldn't new straps just be ordered?


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla* 
Wasn't that a strap malfunction, couldn't new straps just be ordered?

No, the "malfunction" is that the straps ripped out of the shell because the plastic couldn't withstand the crash forces.

There is nothing magical about an expiration. Is it inherently going to fall apart the NEXT day? No, probably not but we know from crash testing that over time plastic degrades. The condition, the weather, the materials, all will affect that time line.

Personally, I am totally unwilling to take the chance that my DC's seat will fail when I need it to perform to SAVE THEIR LIFE. We aren't talking about the chance a plastic plate might break, or a plastic shovel might snap when digging, or, or, or...

Car crashes are THE leading cause of death in children (and adults). Would you let your child play by the pool with out supervision because odds are they won't fall in? Will you let them play in the street because a car probably won't come? Do you bother with plug covers even though they probably won't stick a fork in the plug? No, we take all of those precautions because the *might* is too much to risk. They might die or be seriously injured. The car seat *might * might fail. That is too much of a risk to take. So I choose not to take it.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Yup, what she said ^^. The straps held just fine--they just ripped through the plastic.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Their manuals say nothing about minimum shoulder height.

The manual I have for my 2004 Marathon definitely doesn't, or we wouldn't have used it for our newborn DS1. But now their website does.

The current manual for the Boulevard says (on manual page 6, pdf page 5 left panel):

Quote:

Use rear-facing only with children:
who weigh between 5 and 35 lbs. (2.3 - 15.9 kg.) and the top of the child's head is 1" (2.5 cm.) or more below the top of the child seat shell (Fig. A) and
*the harness straps are at or slightly below the child's shoulders.*
If the child cannot be secured within these requirements because the child exceeds height or weight requirements, review the forward-facing guidelines on page 7. *If the child cannot be secured within these requirements because the child is too small, selection of a different child seat (such as an infant carrier) may be required.*
(emphasis mine)

The section cited above does not exist in the "prior to 6/11/2007" version of the manual for either the Marathon or the Boulevard.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
ETA: I find it really weird that they list the max shoulder height as 16", but the top slot at 16.75" (MA).

The strap is supposed to be above the child's shoulder in the FF position, correct? And it's unlikely you'd be using the top slot RF I suppose.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
The strap is supposed to be above the child's shoulder in the FF position, correct? And it's unlikely you'd be using the top slot RF I suppose.

I mean for FF







Wouldn't the max shoulder height be 16.75?


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## kaylee18 (Dec 25, 2005)

The OP's title is ironic. I wish they did disintegrate on the day of expiration. Then there wouldn't be so many unsafe seats out there giving parents a false sense of security and failing to protect children.

I'll agree that car seat use is over-emphasized when the leading cause of death among children stops being car crashes and when the percentage of carseats being used improperly gets a bit lower than 85%.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Car seats do not go poof on their expiration dates. They expire due to 2 reasons....one, it is thought that the plastic of the shell begins to degrade over a period of time. The rate of degradation can increase for those who live in extreme climates.....hot especially. Secondly, car seats 7-10 years of age will likely not meet crash test standards of today. Technological advances in crash test studies continue to be released and the recommendations are updated accordingly.
There is debate even amongst experts as to when a car seat should be retired. Barring manufacturer directives, it is thought that somewhere in the neighborhood of 7-10 years is the time frame. Personally, I would err on the side of caution and not use a car seat after 7 years that doesn't have an expiration date (per the manufacturer), and heed the recommendation of the manufacturer if it does.
Some PP's linked to excellant information and video in this thread.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
I mean for FF







Wouldn't the max shoulder height be 16.75?

Actually, there's a really neat color diagram in the Boulevard manual that explains why the strap height has to be higher than the shoulder height. If you look at PDF page 5/manual page 7, you'll see that even with the seat upright, the "shoulder level" lines up with a point on the seat that's slightly above the shoulder. The issue is that "shoulder level" isn't determined by plotting a line perpendicular to the seat back/torso, but parallel to the ground... which means it meets the seat back at an angle, intersecting it higher than the child's shoulder.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Actually, there's a really neat color diagram in the Boulevard manual that explains why the strap height has to be higher than the shoulder height. If you look at PDF page 5/manual page 7, you'll see that even with the seat upright, the "shoulder level" lines up with a point on the seat that's slightly above the shoulder. The issue is that "shoulder level" isn't determined by plotting a line perpendicular to the seat back/torso, but parallel to the ground... which means it meets the seat back at an angle, intersecting it higher than the child's shoulder.

I have seen that. It's pretty cool







. But disappointing that you lose 3/4" of shoulder height!


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## monkaha (Jan 22, 2004)

Isn't an old, expired seat better than none?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkaha* 
Isn't an old, expired seat better than none?

Nope, not when there are plenty of resources out there to get free or really cheap seats.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Wow! I had no idea they expired. I knew you shouldn't buy used just in case they were in an accident but I didn't know they expired.


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## sahm2two (Jul 27, 2006)

To complicate matters more - I was also told at a carseat safety check that you could not install three carseats across a back seat using the LATCH system. Apparently with the LATCH system each metal loop is designed to tolerate the force of only one seat in a crash. The manual of my car actually says the same thing. We have hondas and subarus....

Not sure if you are using the seat belts to restrain the seat though.


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## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

Britax video - its old, and it shows a seat that is 10+ years old.

Plastic disintegrating - can someone please provide the sceintific evidence? Do you really think they use plastic so cheap its going to distintegrate? The OP likely did not store this seat outside in the elements for the last 5 years so it was in a climate controlled area.

This was from a NY Times article quoting someone at Graco:
"*That is not because of danger that the plastic is degenerating*, said David Galambos, compliance and safety manager for child safety systems with Graco, a unit of Newell Rubbermaid.

"*It's not as if you'll hit the expiration date and the plastic will become weak," he said. "The plastic is good for at least 10 years. But regulations and standards are constantly changing.*"
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/11/bu...erland&emc=rss

Since some will say the NY Times is not a good enough source, try www.carseat.org who explains:
"Expiration date -

In the last few years, CR manufacturers have been putting "expiration dates" on their products. This was begun in response to infant deaths from air bags. The companies realized that they had millions of products in use that said nothing about the danger to a rear-facing child. The concern became one that "best practice" and regulations change over time, so that a child restraint becomes "obsolete" and less effective than a new product, much the same way that medicines may change or become less effective after some time has passed. A current example would be with tethers--older CRs do not have them, and this is potentially a situation where a newer product will be more effective than an older one.

Taken at face value, the expiration interval (ranging from 5 to 8 years, depending on the manufacturer) is from the date of manufacture, which is what governs the labeling, certification, and other rules that apply. Whether to continue to use an "expired" CR is a judgment call, depending on the alternatives. It will work as well as before, but it is important to know what regulations and warnings may have changed and the risks involved. It is also important to take the expiration date into account when purchasing a CR that may have been manufactured several months or even a year or more before. "

*Please note the absence of any explanation of plastic "going bad" as the reason for expiration dates.*

The danger with the seat the OP has more likely to lie with the base it gets connected to and the chance the base could fail. That seems to be the biggest problem that infant only seats face. I would use a 5 year old seat that hardly got any wear to begin with without hesitation.

~ Maggie


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sahm2two* 
To complicate matters more - I was also told at a carseat safety check that you could not install three carseats across a back seat using the LATCH system. Apparently with the LATCH system each metal loop is designed to tolerate the force of only one seat in a crash. The manual of my car actually says the same thing. We have hondas and subarus....

Not sure if you are using the seat belts to restrain the seat though.

well, the LATCH cant be shared but im confused as to whether you have 3 separate LATCH systems in the back of your car. if you do, you should be able to LATCH 3 car seats. but no, you cant borrow.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 
Britax video - its old, and it shows a seat that is 10+ years old.

Plastic disintegrating - can someone please provide the sceintific evidence? Do you really think they use plastic so cheap its going to distintegrate? The OP likely did not store this seat outside in the elements for the last 5 years so it was in a climate controlled area.

This was from a NY Times article quoting someone at Graco:
"*That is not because of danger that the plastic is degenerating*, said David Galambos, compliance and safety manager for child safety systems with Graco, a unit of Newell Rubbermaid.

"*It's not as if you'll hit the expiration date and the plastic will become weak," he said. "The plastic is good for at least 10 years. But regulations and standards are constantly changing.*"
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/11/bu...erland&emc=rss

Since some will say the NY Times is not a good enough source, try www.carseat.org who explains:
"Expiration date -

In the last few years, CR manufacturers have been putting "expiration dates" on their products. This was begun in response to infant deaths from air bags. The companies realized that they had millions of products in use that said nothing about the danger to a rear-facing child. The concern became one that "best practice" and regulations change over time, so that a child restraint becomes "obsolete" and less effective than a new product, much the same way that medicines may change or become less effective after some time has passed. A current example would be with tethers--older CRs do not have them, and this is potentially a situation where a newer product will be more effective than an older one.

Taken at face value, the expiration interval (ranging from 5 to 8 years, depending on the manufacturer) is from the date of manufacture, which is what governs the labeling, certification, and other rules that apply. Whether to continue to use an "expired" CR is a judgment call, depending on the alternatives. It will work as well as before, but it is important to know what regulations and warnings may have changed and the risks involved. It is also important to take the expiration date into account when purchasing a CR that may have been manufactured several months or even a year or more before. "

*Please note the absence of any explanation of plastic "going bad" as the reason for expiration dates.*

The danger with the seat the OP has more likely to lie with the base it gets connected to and the chance the base could fail. That seems to be the biggest problem that infant only seats face. I would use a 5 year old seat that hardly got any wear to begin with without hesitation.

~ Maggie

im very surprised and disappointed to see that on carseatsafety.org. I do think it has a lot to do w/ the plastic and there are other resources that have been cited in this thread (i believe) to show that.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sahm2two* 
To complicate matters more - I was also told at a carseat safety check that you could not install three carseats across a back seat using the LATCH system. Apparently with the LATCH system each metal loop is designed to tolerate the force of only one seat in a crash. The manual of my car actually says the same thing. We have hondas and subarus....

Not sure if you are using the seat belts to restrain the seat though.

And on top of that A LOT of vehicles do not allow for installation with LATCH on a center seat even if it's just one carseat.
There are only a few vehicles that have center LATCH.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 
Britax video - its old, and it shows a seat that is 10+ years old.

Plastic disintegrating - can someone please provide the sceintific evidence? Do you really think they use plastic so cheap its going to distintegrate? The OP likely did not store this seat outside in the elements for the last 5 years so it was in a climate controlled area.

This was from a NY Times article quoting someone at Graco:
"*That is not because of danger that the plastic is degenerating*, said David Galambos, compliance and safety manager for child safety systems with Graco, a unit of Newell Rubbermaid.

"*It's not as if you'll hit the expiration date and the plastic will become weak," he said. "The plastic is good for at least 10 years. But regulations and standards are constantly changing.*"
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/11/bu...erland&emc=rss

Since some will say the NY Times is not a good enough source, try www.carseat.org who explains:
"Expiration date -

In the last few years, CR manufacturers have been putting "expiration dates" on their products. This was begun in response to infant deaths from air bags. The companies realized that they had millions of products in use that said nothing about the danger to a rear-facing child. The concern became one that "best practice" and regulations change over time, so that a child restraint becomes "obsolete" and less effective than a new product, much the same way that medicines may change or become less effective after some time has passed. A current example would be with tethers--older CRs do not have them, and this is potentially a situation where a newer product will be more effective than an older one.

Taken at face value, the expiration interval (ranging from 5 to 8 years, depending on the manufacturer) is from the date of manufacture, which is what governs the labeling, certification, and other rules that apply. Whether to continue to use an "expired" CR is a judgment call, depending on the alternatives. It will work as well as before, but it is important to know what regulations and warnings may have changed and the risks involved. It is also important to take the expiration date into account when purchasing a CR that may have been manufactured several months or even a year or more before. "

*Please note the absence of any explanation of plastic "going bad" as the reason for expiration dates.*

The danger with the seat the OP has more likely to lie with the base it gets connected to and the chance the base could fail. That seems to be the biggest problem that infant only seats face. I would use a 5 year old seat that hardly got any wear to begin with without hesitation.

~ Maggie

Graco has since retracted the statement and are adamant that you MUST discontinue use of the CR after the stamped date.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Most (maybe all?) Subarus do not allow center LATCH.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Graco has since retracted the statement and are adamant that you MUST discontinue use of the CR after the stamped date.

thank goodness. what a crazy statement (IRT what i have read).


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## soso-lynn (Dec 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
well, the LATCH cant be shared but im confused as to whether you have 3 separate LATCH systems in the back of your car. if you do, you should be able to LATCH 3 car seats. but no, you cant borrow.

I have a Dodge Neon with 3 LATCH systems but the user manual clearly says that you should not use more than 2 at the same time.


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## 3babesunder3 (May 27, 2008)

i'd use it *hides under the table*
i dont think it become unsafe on its expiration date.
i'm sure a lot of people will argue me though.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

Personally, I don't like playing "what-are-the-chances?" with safety for my child.

While I am not sure whether carseats disintegrate after expiration date or not, I prefer to not take the risk.

Of course when it comes to life, one cannot eliminate ALL risks but I'd like to do everything that I can in order to lower those risks. Using an unexpired carseat is one of them.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3babesunder3* 
i'd use it *hides under the table*
i dont think it become unsafe on its expiration date.
i'm sure a lot of people will argue me though.

It's just ASTOUNDING to me that a parent would choose to put their child's VERY LIFE at risk over a $40 car seat!!! Go buy a Cosco Scenera for $40, go hit up your friend for her infant bucket, go beg to your local chapter of Safe Kids that you can't afford a new seat, BUT DON'T USE EXPIRED CAR SEATS.

Car crashes are THE leading cause of death. I am sorry, but after spending months arguing with parents about our new booster seat law, I've had about enough of the total disregard for children's safety.

Would we be sitting here debating if your child's life was worth $40 if it was anything other than a car seat? No. It would not be a question. If your stove might explode and kill your children, you would buy a new stove, especially if your electrician told you it was dangerous. If your child's bedroom roof might collapse and your home inspector told you it was dangerous, you would fix it or not let them sleep in there. But if EVERY CAR SEAT TECH AND EVERY CAR SEAT COMPANY AND NHTSA tell you your car seat could fail in a crash, you go ahead and use it because YOU think that it's fine. I don't get it.


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## Metasequoia (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sahm2two* 
To complicate matters more - I was also told at a carseat safety check that you could not install three carseats across a back seat using the LATCH system. Apparently with the LATCH system each metal loop is designed to tolerate the force of only one seat in a crash. The manual of my car actually says the same thing. We have hondas and subarus....

Not sure if you are using the seat belts to restrain the seat though.

I've had 3 kids in car seats using LATCH for over 2 years in my Sienna's middle row - nowhere in the manual does it say anything about not using all 3 LATCH systems at once. My friend is a CST & helped me install all 3 seats, in fact, I just had her check them out on Friday since I recently turned Ds forward facing.

I LOVE having the three of them all in one row - one's in a Husky, one's in a Regent & Ds is in the middle in a Marathon. Before the Marathon, he was in a bucket.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkaha* 
Isn't an old, expired seat better than none?

An old, expired seat provides a false sense of security. Also, when a restraint fails to work properly, it may present a greater risk, such as strangulation on straps or punctures from breakage.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 
Britax video - its old, and it shows a seat that is 10+ years old.

Plastic disintegrating - can someone please provide the sceintific evidence? Do you really think they use plastic so cheap its going to distintegrate? The OP likely did not store this seat outside in the elements for the last 5 years so it was in a climate controlled area.

I have never, EVER seen a climate-controlled car storage area. Even if one has a garage, the A/C isn't hooked up there (or if it is, that's because it's been converted to uses other than car storage). Even in large buildings with underground parking, there's only ventilation, not climate control... and no one *always* parks underground.

Cars get very, very hot inside in the summer, in most parts of the world. The interior temperature is often many degrees higher than the air temp outside the car.

As for citing a source, here's an interesting discussion of the different types of plastic out there and what their vulnerabilities are. Although it's not about carseats, it is about safety enclosures, so the same issues are relevant.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soso-lynn* 
I have a Dodge Neon with 3 LATCH systems but the user manual clearly says that you should not use more than 2 at the same time.

thats interesting, and unfortunate. you would think if there are 3 separate LATCHs you could use each of them. good thing you read your manual.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 
It's just ASTOUNDING to me that a parent would choose to put their child's VERY LIFE at risk over a $40 car seat!!! Go buy a Cosco Scenera for $40, go hit up your friend for her infant bucket, go beg to your local chapter of Safe Kids that you can't afford a new seat, BUT DON'T USE EXPIRED CAR SEATS.

Car crashes are THE leading cause of death. I am sorry, but after spending months arguing with parents about our new booster seat law, I've had about enough of the total disregard for children's safety.

Would we be sitting here debating if your child's life was worth $40 if it was anything other than a car seat? No. It would not be a question. If your stove might explode and kill your children, you would buy a new stove, especially if your electrician told you it was dangerous. If your child's bedroom roof might collapse and your home inspector told you it was dangerous, you would fix it or not let them sleep in there. But if EVERY CAR SEAT TECH AND EVERY CAR SEAT COMPANY AND NHTSA tell you your car seat could fail in a crash, you go ahead and use it because YOU think that it's fine. I don't get it.

i dont know.....its unfortunate..i just don't get why some want to argue to use an expired seat, or that RF;ing isnt safest, or against any of the safest practices...but apparently there are many ppl out there that dont consider it that big of a deal.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 
It's just ASTOUNDING to me that a parent would choose to put their child's VERY LIFE at risk over a $40 car seat!!! Go buy a Cosco Scenera for $40, go hit up your friend for her infant bucket, go beg to your local chapter of Safe Kids that you can't afford a new seat, BUT DON'T USE EXPIRED CAR SEATS.

Car crashes are THE leading cause of death. I am sorry, but after spending months arguing with parents about our new booster seat law, I've had about enough of the total disregard for children's safety.

Would we be sitting here debating if your child's life was worth $40 if it was anything other than a car seat? No. It would not be a question. If your stove might explode and kill your children, you would buy a new stove, especially if your electrician told you it was dangerous. If your child's bedroom roof might collapse and your home inspector told you it was dangerous, you would fix it or not let them sleep in there. But if EVERY CAR SEAT TECH AND EVERY CAR SEAT COMPANY AND NHTSA tell you your car seat could fail in a crash, you go ahead and use it because YOU think that it's fine. I don't get it.

You know, where my family is from, people rarely use car seats. Often, you're lucky to be in a car with seat belts. Does it mean when we visit we don't ride in cars with the kids? No. I consider it a *huge* privilege to live in a country where people are wealthy enough to have cars with seat belts, various airbags and multiple (in my case) car seats to boot.

Everyone takes risks that are acceptable to them. Provide the info and leave it at that.

Oh, and furthermore, there's this sentiment on this board that the $40 car seat is really a piece of crap compared to a $250 Britax. I've seen it over and over again. I have an Evenflo Triumph V and according to some folks on this site, it's best I chuck it immediately and go out and get a Britax because mine is just not up to par. That, to say the least, is mildly annoying.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

^I've been reading Family Safety for quite some time now and while I do see the Britaxes being recommended often, I really haven't encountered anyone trashing of the Cosco Scenera (the $40 carseat) or any other carseat for that matter.

What I have been seeing are people who state their preferences and don't buy other brands for various reasons such as unsafe practices (not promptly recalling seats or producing unsafe after-market products).

But nowhere in this board do I get the drift that it's Britax or nothing. Even the CPST's here are very accommodating as to helping people find a seat that fits the family's needs and budget.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
Even the CPST's here are very accommodating as to helping people find a seat that fits the family's needs and budget.

The one person who frequently states she would NEVER use an Evenflo or Dorel product is not a tech







As a tech I have no such qualms and voice that frequently. I have an Evenflo and a Scenera in my mom's car for my kids and I feel totally safe when they are in those seats


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
The one person who frequently states she would NEVER use an Evenflo or Dorel product is not a tech







As a tech I have no such qualms and voice that frequently. I have an Evenflo and a Scenera in my mom's car for my kids and I feel totally safe when they are in those seats









Thanks!


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
^I've been reading Family Safety for quite some time now and while I do see the Britaxes being recommended often, I really haven't encountered anyone trashing of the Cosco Scenera (the $40 carseat) or any other carseat for that matter.

What I have been seeing are people who state their preferences and don't buy other brands for various reasons such as unsafe practices (not promptly recalling seats or producing unsafe after-market products).

But nowhere in this board do I get the drift that it's Britax or nothing. Even the CPST's here are very accommodating as to helping people find a seat that fits the family's needs and budget.

I am definitely one of those ppl who recommends Britax car seats but i would certainly never recommend any kind of expired seat (including a Britax) over even the cheapest car seat out there. I have my preferences, sure...but I also try to practice, and recommend, safest practices and I don't care if the car seat is plated in gold, an expired car seat in my opinion is a dangerous car seat regardless of the name.

I have seen CPST's recommend the best car seat that fits the car, the child and the family budget...and that is easy for everyone to install (that last part is what gets me to the Britax's every time).


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## cancat (Jun 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
The one person who frequently states she would NEVER use an Evenflo or Dorel product is not a tech







As a tech I have no such qualms and voice that frequently. I have an Evenflo and a Scenera in my mom's car for my kids and I feel totally safe when they are in those seats



















Actually, as techs we do NOT recommend one brand over another, except to say that one brand might have models that fit higher weights, or that another model might not fit a kid as long.

Our mantra is the best car seat is one that fits your child's height and weight and is one that you can use correctly every time.

There are carseats on the market in canada in the US today at all price points which fit a variety of children.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rootzdawta* 
Oh, and furthermore, there's this sentiment on this board that the $40 car seat is really a piece of crap compared to a $250 Britax. I've seen it over and over again. I have an Evenflo Triumph V and according to some folks on this site, it's best I chuck it immediately and go out and get a Britax because mine is just not up to par. That, to say the least, is mildly annoying.

Heh... when I was asking for advice about whether to get a Boulevard for my baby or a Regent/Frontier for my older DS, I got people saying "Get an EFTA" when I had no interest whatsoever in a non-Britax seat ;-). And when people have space concerns, the SK Radian is always the top recommendation. I see a LOT of non-Britax seat recommendations on here!


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

Quote:

The one person who frequently states she would NEVER use an Evenflo or Dorel product is not a tech As a tech I have no such qualms and voice that frequently. I have an Evenflo and a Scenera in my mom's car for my kids and I feel totally safe when they are in those seats
Nope, I'm not a tech. Yet. I will be in November 2008, though







I do and will continue to give people all of the info. that I have on ALL companies- including the info. on Dorel and Evenflo- every time someone asks me for a seat recommendation. And there are several techs that I know of that freqent car-seat.org who share my distrust in Evenflo and Dorel seats and would never put their own kids in seats made by those companies. They will recommend them to others who cannot afford a higher-priced seat, but would not take the chance with their own kids' lives. I know this because they have shared this info. with me in private PMs.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayleeZoo* 
They will recommend them to others who cannot afford a higher-priced seat, but would not take the chance with their own kids' lives.


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## cancat (Jun 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayleeZoo* 
Nope, I'm not a tech. Yet. I will be in November 2008, though







I do and will continue to give people all of the info. that I have on ALL companies- including the info. on Dorel and Evenflo- every time someone asks me for a seat recommendation. And there are several techs that I know of that freqent car-seat.org who share my distrust in Evenflo and Dorel seats and would never put their own kids in seats made by those companies. They will recommend them to others who cannot afford a higher-priced seat, but would not take the chance with their own kids' lives. I know this because they have shared this info. with me in private PMs.

I'm on car-seat.org too and we've talked alot about how its not helpful to always recommend Britax seats - and they are not always the best choice!...my kids have been in all sorts of different seats and I don't think I've been taking a chance with their lives. Many of the techs (experienced techs) I work with have evenflo/dorel seats and are fine with that.

I absolutely feel that Britax seats are not safer than all other brands' seats - there are some Britax seats that haven't even passed Canada's testing standards! They do have some great seats with great ease-of-use features and that is mostly what you're paying for...


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

cancat, i think everyone agrees that one one particular brand is best- britax included. but what i have found (although some techs are reluctant to post it on a public message board) is that some people agree that the ethics of certain companies (ones that continue to manufacture and sell seats that they know have the potential to be dangerous) make it a gamble to use any seat by that manufacturer.

and i think it's okay for techs to recommend seats based on a family's criteria-budget included. but withholding information doesn't seem ethical to me. if someone can only afford a $40 scenera, then fine. but i think people should know about the history of dorel and current issues, like the plastic spikes puncturing the harness on 2007 seats, which dorel won't treat as a recall.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayleeZoo* 
but i think people should know about the history of dorel and current issues, like the plastic spikes puncturing the harness on 2007 seats, which dorel won't treat as a recall.

Sadly, it's not just 2007 seats







Unfortunately we have given out hundreds of these seats to low-income families in the area. Who knows how many of those seats are damaged and the parents aren't even aware.


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

anna, what do you do about the seats with spikes that you've already given out? is there a way for you to contact the recipients and let them know that they may have one of the "bad" seats? i guess you'd have to have something to give them to replace the spikey sceneras in that case, though, huh?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayleeZoo* 
anna, what do you do about the seats with spikes that you've already given out? is there a way for you to contact the recipients and let them know that they may have one of the "bad" seats? i guess you'd have to have something to give them to replace the spikey sceneras in that case, though, huh?

We still don't know what we are going to do. There are literally hundreds out there. We have huge box of replacement harnesses waiting.

We only realized the problem because one of the techs on our team is using the Scenera RF for her son and has had to replace the harness twice due to damage.


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## kaylee18 (Dec 25, 2005)

About LATCh 3-across: Some vehicles allow it and others don't. Also, the "pairs" of anchors may not be obvious, and it's important not to attach to the wrong "pair" regardless of how many seats you are installing.

For older children (especially 40-80 pounds harnessed), either the vehicle LATCh lower anchors or the carseat LATCh lower connectors may not be usable above a certain weight, and the seat should be installed with the seatbelt instead in that case.

This is an area where it's very important to read the vehicle manual as well as the carseat manual.

In a word: RTFM. That is all.


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## sahm2two (Jul 27, 2006)

I had no idea that the LATCH might have a weight limit! Thanks for the tip - off to RTFM!


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## nevaehsmommy (Aug 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
You would be breaking the law (in most states) and putting a child at risk of ejection in a crash situation.

.


Can you point me in the direction where I can find that law for missouri?


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## nevaehsmommy (Aug 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayleeZoo* 
like the plastic spikes puncturing the harness on 2007 seats, which dorel won't treat as a recall.

What is this? I have heard nothing.


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