# Yes, I will take no for an answer Update #32



## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

I didn't mean to write a novel, sorry!

I guess I'm looking for support, and to know I'm not alone in the way I parent my children.

For the first time I've come up against disapproval from people I care about. I've had disapproval of my parenting choices before, had people tell me how to get my kid to sleep in her own room, poop in the potty with the promise of stickers, etc.. and it never phased me because they weren't people whose approval I necessarily needed or wanted.

But now a good friend doesn't like how I am disciplining my daughter. She isn't saying this directly, but is suggesting books and web sites, pointing out people are 'good with discipline', talking about the research against permissive parenting, interfering with my redirection of my daughter.

Twice she witnessed my daughter refusing my requests, and me going along with the refusal. Once was in the grocery store; I told DD we needed to get to the produce section. DD didn't say anything but simply walked over to the lobster tank and watched them. So I joined her. The lobsters were interesting, DD is too young to resist such a site, and we weren't in a hurry. A minute or two later I asked if she was ready to go to the produce section now, she said yes, and off we went to get our veggies. DFs mouth dropped. You know, the whole ignoring a request/defiance of parent thing, and me asking DD if she was ready to move on rather than just telling her what to do.

The second was when DD was resting on the couch. She got up before I expected her to and I told her to lie down for longer. DD simply said 'no' to which DF responded with a sharp intake of breath. I asked DD why she didn't want to lie down and she said she had rested long enough and wasn't tired any more. Sounded like a good reason to me, and she didn't seem tired, so I said OK.

That's when all the general comments about discipline began.

I guess it just makes me sad that my good friend and I don't see eye to eye on this, and seems to distance us from each other a little. I didn't feel as comfortable talking with her about parenting issues, which my life pretty much revolves around these days, because she just didn't seem to get where I was coming from. And it's hard that a good friend doesn't show confidence in such a huge part of my life at the moment.

I can see if DD was hell on wheels, but she was generally pretty cooperative and pleasant. DF was here for a week and during that time DD had one short melt down (while she was with DH and I was showering), played nicely with her brother, helped me around the house, didn't resist bed time. She's just about to turn three and that second example is the only time she said 'no' to me the whole week! DS hasn't really gotten into toddler behavior yet, he's more like a baby than a toddler. So DF wasn't reacting to difficult behavior in children, but my style of interaction. I did respond immediately and firmly when DD did something unsafe, so it's not like I'm totally lax, just not authoritarian when I don't see a need to be.

I may bring this up with DF a little later, but right now I just need some support! DF has no children, so she's never navigated being with two kids under three 24/7, or had to test her ideas or assumptions about how adults should be around children. I guess I'm just looking for acknowledgment that it's OK, healthy even, for kids to have some control and choice in their lives, that obedience isn't a desired outcome in kids, and that it's tough when friends don't support us in our style of child raising. Especially that last one.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

you sound like a fabulous mama, and sorry, but your friend is in for a rude awakening when she has kids!







I was reading along, feeling sad that your friendship would probably disintegrate a little over time if she was raising her children so very differently than you, but then I read that she doesn't even HAVE kids yet, and I just sort of smiled to myself.









I'd take it with a grain of salt, and maybe even suggest a few of your own resources, as it sounds like she's somewhat interested in childrearing just operating on preconceived notions of what kids should and shouldn't be allowed to get away with.

fwiw, I have the same type of relationship with my kids, and while my parents see it as "spoiling" them, we all know, in our family, that our way works really well for all of us. of course there are times when I wished they'd just answer "yes ma'am!" to my orders, but we have a much better relationship than that.


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

I don't see how your examples are "permissive parenting". I don't believe in instant and blind obedience. I don't want robots. I want children who will grow up and become intelligent adults who can think and reason. I think her explanation of why she didn't want to lay down anymore was thoughtful and sounded respectful.


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## Cujobunny (Aug 16, 2006)

I have the same type of relationship with my children and am confident and comfortable with the idea that I'm treating them with respect and letting them know that their wants and their comfort are important.

It really does make life easier if you go along with them sometimes and I don't see anything wrong with it at all. The child feels like they have some control and they are happy and feel like they're having fun with their mum or dad.

I personally hate the view that parents are right all the time and that children should always do as their told, when their told, by a parent or any adult for that matter. I told my dh a long time ago that I _want_ my kids to question authority. I don't want my children to think that they have to do something just because a grownup says so. There has to be a better reason than just because someone says so. Children are people, and all people deserve to be treated with respect.

If I had some links, I would post them so you could respond to your friend but the truth is it is what feels right to me and that's really all that matters. I think if a child free person gave me discipline advice I would







and







and maybe


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onemomentatatime* 
The second was when DD was resting on the couch. She got up before I expected her to and I told her to lie down for longer. DD simply said 'no' to which DF responded with a sharp intake of breath. I asked DD why she didn't want to lie down and she said she had rested long enough and wasn't tired any more. Sounded like a good reason to me, and she didn't seem tired, so I said OK.

What I would comment on (and I'm not passing judgement on how you parent - just using this as a different way to communicate your friends feelings on the matter) was if you were asking your daughter to stay on the couch (and if you used the word "please"), or if you were telling her to stay there. *I* would not accept the word no as a reply without a "thank you" (I ALWAYS say please and thank you to my kids) when I am making a request, and if I told my daughter to stay there and she refused, I would then ask her why she's refusing. If the answer is reasonable (ie. she's just not tired anymore), then I would not push the matter.

That said, I think your friend was completely out of line.

I recently ended a friendship with someone who used to constantly try to give me parenting advice and telling me how my daughter is going to be when she turns 2, but with who's parenting techniques I strongly disagree with (letting her 8 month old baby scream in fear of a dog because "she'll get over it", using time outs on her 3 year old daughter for silly things that 3 year olds do, but not responding to her daughters extreme rudeness in the way she sometimes talks, then complaining about her daughter being "only 3", etc). She recently told me (very nicely) that I said something that could come off as condescending when my intent was genuine concern for her family's safety. Needless to say, I got a little personal. Everything I said, I said knowing that the friendship would end, but I couldn't her "I know more than you" attitude anymore.

I'm sure as your friend, she's only trying to help you see that (in her eyes anyway) you might be turning your daughter into a spoiled brat (putting words in her mouth). Your parenting style is obviously not one she's familiar with, and everything she's every heard or read about how to parent a child, more than likely came from "traditional" methods (not sure if that's the right term - cry it out, don't spoil your baby, etc). It doesn't sound to me like she's trying to cause a problem (in fact, exactly the opposite), but in my opinion, it's not her place, and she's not being too kind in her method of delivery.

Advice (nb concern) is always great, but to tell you that you're doing something wrong is completely disrespectful to the relationship. Backing off sounds like a good idea (until you cool down), but I would definitely talk to her about this. I'm sure that her intentions are good, and probably not worth ending a friendship over. My friendship ended because I simply couldn't stand it anymore. It's always bothered me the way she treats her children, but there's really nothing I can say to her about it. For us, no longer being friends was the best choice.

Good luck to you. That's a cruddy situation to be in.


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## SpiderMum (Sep 13, 2008)

I would have done the same with my DD in those situations! I think it's crazy to act like a child can never say "no" to a parent. We are not gods, we are here to guide and teach a child not control every moment of their lives.

I'd ask your friend about it. Something along the lines of "I've noticed you seemed surprised at how I handled these situations with DD...here's why I handled them that way..." and give her a quick overview of your views on the matter.


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SpiderMum* 
I'd ask your friend about it. Something along the lines of "I've noticed you seemed surprised at how I handled these situations with DD...here's why I handled them that way..." and give her a quick overview of your views on the matter.

You're way nicer than I am, seeing that it's none of her business WHY OP chose to handle the situation.

I have a BIL that constantly makes comments about how everyone's kids act. Mine, my nieces and nephews, friends, whoever... Of course he has no kids of his own and still lives at home with his mom and dad...at 31. When he makes those comments I just tell him that I can not WAIT to meet his perfectly behaved little angels. It will be a pleasure to see how a REAL parent should act.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SpiderMum* 
I'd ask your friend about it. Something along the lines of "I've noticed you seemed surprised at how I handled these situations with DD...here's why I handled them that way..." and give her a quick overview of your views on the matter.

This gives me a good lead in, thanks. She is a very good friend and I don't want it to be a wedge between us (which is how it feels today). I don't believe I need to justify anything, and want to avoid that as much as possible, but I would like more openness about it. I don't want to stay uncomfortable about something that happened and not say anything.

I also guess I have to get over my surprise that our styles are so different, because we have a lot else in common, philosophies and interests that I would have thought would have made her less authoritarian as she comes across. She isn't going to have children, she's past the age where bio children and adopting children are viable options and she's happy with that choice. So, unfortunately in a way, she's never going to get to see for herself the reality of raising children and being with them all the time.


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## mum21andtwins (Nov 8, 2007)

thnks friend I appreciate your concern re dd but I've read this research and these sites & books they resonate much better with me. I hope we can moce past this now and I'm happy to chat about this again when/if you have kids.

Its hard to understand parenting choices if you don't have kids. I know I was on the nannys site before I started actually thinking about kids


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Oh, Lordy, she has no kids and she is giving you discipline advice?









I think that HAVING KIDS PERIOD will drive a wedge between you and your non-kid freinds. Kudos to you for keeping up this friendship. Ultimately, if you want to keep it, I would just let the comments roll off and she'll understand when she has kids of her own.

Even if you do try to explain it to her, she won't truly understand til she has a reference point.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SactoMommy* 

I think that HAVING KIDS PERIOD will drive a wedge between you and your non-kid freinds.

You've hit the nail, SactoMommy. This is OT and probably worthy of another thread, but most of my closest friends are childless by choice and likely to remain that way. I notice the distance increasing as my perspective and priorities shift, and it makes me really sad.


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## madcap150 (Jan 11, 2008)

OP, as far as the discipline issue is concerned, it seems like there may be something more basic going on. Your friend may truly believe that you want and need help with discipline, but are too overwhelmed/ busy/ etc. to find that help, and that's why she's providing these links and books-- she wants to help you with resources.

If it seemed like that might be the case, I wouldn't even get into the "why I did it this way" or "other methods I like better." I would just say something like "Look, I know you are trying to help me with this discipline info. I think it may not be clear to you that *I am making a conscious choice to discipline/parent this way.* I'm not overwhelmed or struggling; I've done plenty of reflecting and thinking and chosen what works best for our family."

I know with the friends I have who look at things differently, this would be enough to get them off the topic and bring our friendship back into balance.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

I have the same issues with people. My mom actually laughed outloud in surprise when my son (7 at the time) refused a request of mine and I said "ok" and went about my business. My MIL thinks my kids lead me around by the nose just because I don't lead them around by the nose.

I tell these people that I want my kids to have the power of saying "no." I want them to demand respect as adults and to not have fear of authority. I want them to not be "yes men." If it's something Non-negotiable, I tell them that it's non-negotiable, but mostly, my requests are for my comfort and convenience and it doesn't mean that my children have to put my own comfort and convenience above theirs. They're people too and have feelings, wants, agendas, ,etc. Why shouldn't I respect that?

I've noticed that people who try to control their kids all the time have kids who are fearful. The kids seem to whine a lot and try to get their way against someone who doesn't want them to have their way. They do things in secret or just don't have the initiative to do anything at all and seem dull.

Alfie Kohn said in is Unconditional parenting dvd that the more times a parenting book has the word "obey" in it, the more worthless it is to a parent and child.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SactoMommy* 
Oh, Lordy, she has no kids and she is giving you discipline advice?









I strongly disagree with having to have given birth in order to understand (or make decisions about) parenting techniques. When my first child was born, I could not believe how many people tried to give me advice or expressed disapproval for the way I chose to raise my daughter. Despite the fact that I worked as a nanny (often while the parents were out of town for long periods at a time) for over 15 years, justifying it by telling me how "it's different when it's your own". I'm still waiting to see how it's different.

I also disagree (in some circumstances) that having kids will drive a wedge between you and your kidless friends. I've found great support in several of my child-less friends, and having children of my own has strengthened some of our friendships.

Regardless of her way of voicing opinion, I do believe that onemomentatatime's friend is just trying to help. MY friend was flat out being condescending and disrespectful of how I raise my daughter, based on nothing but her own personal experience.

Has this friend had any experience other than by means of using punishment and discipline to "control" children, and the effect that certain methods have on them? Getting mad isn't going to help matters at all, if the friend doesn't understand your reasons for doing things your way.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 

I also disagree (in some circumstances) that having kids will drive a wedge between you and your kidless friends. I've found great support in several of my child-less friends, and having children of my own has strengthened some of our friendships.

Has this friend had any experience other than by means of using punishment and discipline to "control" children, and the effect that certain methods have on them? Getting mad isn't going to help matters at all, if the friend doesn't understand your reasons for doing things your way.

Just for the record, I don't think it has to drive a wedge for every friendship, I'm speaking about my personal experience here, though, not philosophically about friendship in general. And I'm more sad than mad. There is more than I said in my original post, though, like her interrupting me when I was in the middle of redirecting DD by saying, "no, that means no you may not do that." That really is disrespectful, especially since it was a minor thing that didn't involve DF or safety; she wasn't stopping her from running in front of a car or something. I can't imagine interrupting a mother talking to her child for any reason, let alone to discipline them differently. That sort of thing WILL drive a wedge if we cannot work through it. I do believe she MEANT to be helpful, but helpful it was not!


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

I haven't read all the replies, but I am exactly the same way you are. I really try not to ever be in a hurry and let the kids roam and have a say, too. The few times I have in their life been more rushed, they have understood and cooperated. So long as they say no to me, or dissagree in a RESPECTFUL way, I have no problem.

And you knwo what? When she IS older she will most likely be much easier to do those things you NEED because you are teaching her a respectful relationship with you, and not just that you are mom and have the final say. I love it!


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onemomentatatime* 
. There is more than I said in my original post, though, like her interrupting me when I was in the middle of redirecting DD by saying, "no, that means no you may not do that." That really is disrespectful, especially since it was a minor thing that didn't involve DF or safety; she wasn't stopping her from running in front of a car or something.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make in my original reply. Were you asking, or were you telling. And if I (as your friend) wasn't sure or had a problem with your lax approach to "letting her get away with it", I would have approached YOU with my concerns. I agree with you, that what your friend did was downright disrespectful. Hopefully you (and she) can work through it!


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
What I would comment on (and I'm not passing judgement on how you parent - just using this as a different way to communicate your friends feelings on the matter) was if you were asking your daughter to stay on the couch (and if you used the word "please"), or if you were telling her to stay there. *I* would not accept the word no as a reply without a "thank you" (I ALWAYS say please and thank you to my kids) when I am making a request, and if I told my daughter to stay there and she refused, I would then ask her why she's refusing. If the answer is reasonable (ie. she's just not tired anymore), then I would not push the matter.


Yes, I agree. I am working on this myself. Like other PPs, I don't feel the need for DD to be a robot immediately obeying every _request_, but (as a result of my permissiveness/openness to her suggestions) we have been having a problem lately with her ignoring my instructions when they *do* matter. Last week, for example, she ran out in front of cars in the parking lot TWICE when I specifically had told her, "Put your hands on the car and don't move." ETA: this is a parking lot-behavior that we have been working on since she was 12 mos old--putting hands on the car while I unlock the doors--, so she _knows_ what she is supposed to do-- she was deliberately being disobedient to be "funny." It was not funny.

She's 2.5. She does not understand why, "Come with me to produce" is different than "Stay right next to the car." So, personally, I'm trying to formulate my instructions/suggestions differently when they matter and when they really don't... ."I'm ready to go to produce now," for example. If she ran over to the lobsters, I would prob say something like, "oh, how neat, lobsters. We can watch them for a minute before we go to produce."

Personally, I don't like it at all when DD says "No," whether it's a request or a command. If I say, "Go to bed," and she says, "But Mommy, I'm not tired," that's okay, I can deal with that. "No" on it's own would not be okay with me. (unless the question is, "Would you like..." or something like that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
I strongly disagree with having to have given birth in order to understand (or make decisions about) parenting techniques. When my first child was born, I could not believe how many people tried to give me advice or expressed disapproval for the way I chose to raise my daughter. Despite the fact that I worked as a nanny (often while the parents were out of town for long periods at a time) for over 15 years, justifying it by telling me how "it's different when it's your own". I'm still waiting to see how it's different.

Well, if someone with lots of experience w/ kids (a nanny or teacher or something) gave me advice, I would feel very differently than I would getting advice from someone with no significant kid experience. I know that, for me personally, I had a LOT of crazy ideas about the right way to raise children before I had my DD, and really, I don't feel like i'm much of a discipline "expert" now that I have her, either. Maybe an expert in DD


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

It's when someone passes judgement or assumes that a woman with no kids, has no experience, and should not be offering their advice or opinion. Even someone with as much experience as I have with raising children, I don't have the first clue what might be best for yours, and I still run into situations where I have to step back and wonder what the best way to handle it would be.

YOU are the expert in raising your kids. YOU know what is best for them, and what is not. All I can do is offer suggestions on different ways to handle whatever situation.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I might jokingly say something like "Hmmm, did I ask for advice on this?" and then explain that once you have kids everyone wants to weigh in on everything but at the end of the day, you have to make very personal choices about how you will choose to raise your children.

You don't have to end the friendship, but sometimes drawing your boundaries with a frosty "I'm comfortable with how I'm raising X, you really don't need me to give me advice on this." will make someone back off. If your friend is overstepping, to me, it's ok to let her know that. It's ok to let someone know that they are hurting your feelings/offending you. And it's better to let them know than to lose the friendship.

But, just like you're the one who really knows your daughter, you also know your friend. Maybe she doesn't deserve the frosty treatment. Maybe a quick response like --"Hey, I know you're putting a lot of time into finding these articles etc, but it's not necessary--I'm very happy with DD and the way we parent her." -- would work just as well?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I remember a childless friend visiting when ds was about 2. He wanted something on the counter that he couldn't have, and when I said no he did a little antsy-dance accompanied with fussy noises of protest. I found something else he could have instead and he immediately calmed down.

My friend stared at us both wide eyed and asked in a hushed voice 'Is he...spoiled?' as if she were asking 'Is he...part alien?".

To me it was a complete non-event moment, I did not even register a problem. It was interesting.


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## ishyfishie (Dec 20, 2006)

No real advice, OP, and I think it sounds like the friend took it to an extent that would really bother me, but this has come up recently in our parenting so I thought I'd share!

I was raised in a very GD way, and dh...not so much. His very loving parents did use some physical discipline when the kids were young (which they seem to really regret), but mainly parents were The Authority. We do very well at coordinating our parenting with our 2 yo dd, but he recently expressed concern about what I think he considered "permissive parenting." When dd asks for something (a story, more lotion, to brush her teeth longer, LOL) that I initially try to redirect her away from for a selfish reason (I don't want to read anymore, I don't feel like getting up to get the lotion, we're already in bed with teeth brushed), well...if she gets really upset about it and I don't want her upset to escalate, I'll often honor the original request. Dh felt this was teaching her that whining gets what she wants, but I feel like it's teaching her that reasonable requests will be considered and unreasonable ones are just not. I try to examine my reasons for refusing, dd's reasons for wanting something, and I try to circumvent "tantrums" before they start...but sometimes, she does start whining/crying/whatever. He just isn't always around to see my circumventing technique during the day, so he tends to see dd when she's already tired or way off schedule (thanks to Halloween activities last week) and more prone to melting down right away, while I'm also tired and more prone to refusing without reason.

After talking about it, dh understood my point and agreed. I think some people--childless or otherwise!--just have this vision of "omg creating a monster" by things that don't follow Parents as The Authority mentality. I find myself occasionally making arbitrary decisions/"rules" because even with a GD upbringing, the "I'm the parent, what I say goes" feeling is so prevalent in society and media that it seems ingrained despite the fact that I know I don't want to parent that way! Parenting has been very instinctual for us so far, so now that things require a little more thought, I find that sometimes dh just isn't consciously thinking about how to translate that parenting into toddlerhood, if that makes sense.

So while it doesn't excuse your friend criticizing you or pushing other discipline techniques (and those actions may mean she's made up her mind), I just wanted to point out that sometimes, people just haven't thought it through and really ARE open to hearing the "why" behind it, and then understand and become better (present/future) parents for it.

Edit: I also LOVE the title of this thread! That really sums it up for me. I'll use that when I talk to dh tonight.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

The only thing I see "wrong" with your examples is that I don't like rudeness from anyone.

Walking away without some sort of response, IMO, is very rude. That wouldn't be acceptable. I would call my kid (or my DH) on something like that. I'm all for compromise and coming up with alternative that are acceptable to all involved parties, but, for us, it needs to be done politely.

Same thing with the second example. That 'No' would come across as really rude. I would be fine with a "mama, I don't need to rest any more' or something like that. But I wouldn't be OK with such a curt response.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

The curt response might be rude or not, depending on the tone of voice. Also, keep in mind that the child in question is around 3 years old (birthday this month as per the OP's siggy, but I'm not sure which day of the month), and may not have full command of language yet.

I think you (the OP) really need to start with "DF, I appreciate your concern but I'm comfortable with my parenting style." Then, if she seems honestly interested, you can get into the details of WHY you chose this parenting style, but first you need to establish that you're not asking for help and her input isn't welcome. If you just start defending yourself without setting limits first, it will come across as an invitation to debate with you, and for her to try and change your mind.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
The curt response might be rude or not, depending on the tone of voice. Also, keep in mind that the child in question is around 3 years old (birthday this month as per the OP's siggy, but I'm not sure which day of the month), and may not have full command of language yet.

I have an almost 3yo (birthday this month) and there is no way I would accept either of those behaviors. They just wouldn't fly in this house. There is no reason for anyone to be rude. I don't say "No" to her when she asks me to do something. Why would I let her do it to me?

Just because kids are little doesn't mean they can't be polite and have good manners. And even if they can't talk very much, that doesn't mean anything either.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Alrighty people, she needs advice on how to deal with her friend. Not whether or not her friend was right to judge.

Let's be supportive here. Hug it out, y'all. lol


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
Alrighty people, she needs advice on how to deal with her friend. Not whether or not her friend was right to judge.

Let's be supportive here. Hug it out, y'all. lol









I think perspective is important in deciding hoe to approach dealing with some one.

That's why I mentioned what I did.

The OP presented the issue as being about parenting and how she's in the right.

But I think a more practical approach to dealing with her friend would be to leave the parenting out of it (because reasonable people can differ, even though who have the same basic philosophy) and focus on the fact that her friend is commenting on her parenting.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
The OP presented the issue as being about parenting and how she's in the right.

I'm not sure if I understand your meaning, or I'm completely missing your point. She presented examples of two separate situations in which her friend reacted to with judgement on how she parents her child. And is clearly upset about this.

How is she saying she's in the right?


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
I'm not sure if I understand your meaning, or I'm completely missing your point. She presented examples of two separate situations in which her friend reacted to with judgement on how she parents her child. And is clearly upset about this.

How is she saying she's in the right?

She presented 2 examples of a situation where she did something that felt right to her and for which she had no regrets (so I'd call that her saying she was in the right) and her friend reacted dissaprovingly.

My point is that instead of focusing on that actual parenting choice (taking 'no' for an answer), I would focus on asking my friend not to judge my choices.

I consider myself to be very AP, but based on my child's needs and my needs, I'm really quite strict (otherwise I wouldn't be able to be a good mom, I need order and peace in my life). I do it in a gentle and respectful way. Many of the families we spend time with are much more permissive than we are. But we generally get along fine because they don't comment on my stricter rules, and I don't comment on their lack of rules.

This came up the other day at playgroup when I saw DD stick her finger in her nose (she was at the tale end of a cold). I can't stand nose picking, so I gently reminded her to keep her finger out of her nose and took her to the bathroom to wash her hands and then helped her get the booger out of her nose with a tissue. One mom was horrified that I didn't let DD pick her nose because "that's what little kids do". Then I pointed out that I hadn't said a single thing or reacted in any way any time I saw her son pick his nose and eat it.

What it comes down to, IMO, is not what the choice is (as long as it's not abusive/dangerous on either side of strict or permissive) but how 2 adults interact when they disagree.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Fair enough, but that has nothing to do with being right or wrong. She's just following her beliefs. And replying with a negative comment about how "those behaviors wouldn't fly in your house", contradicts your last comment on focussing to help your friend not judge her choices, when in fact, you just did.

But that's all I'm going to say regarding that. This thread isn't about you, so let's get back on track.









BTW. I'm mildly AP, but I'm very UP.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I think you are a good mommy but..........but please give your child words for these situation.







My first child I did not do this and I still think that is why he will give one word answers and it drives me nuts. I asked him this morning do you have swim after school..."Nope." Then he called asking for a ride. He had a meeting. He is in his room made as @#$#@ at me because he had to walk 5 miles home. If he would have given me a full answer I could have arranged for a ride.

I truly think if I would have done better with my first he we wouldn't have some of the situations we do. I think it is a lesson in completing thoughts and curotisy. (I will resign this might be a teen thing. But my younger two are not doing it.) This is one area I think I was weaker on, in giving him words.

As for your friend. I would say, "Thanks for the concern." Then pass the bean dip. Is she the only one expressing concern? Are you getting a lot of shocked and disapprovial? If more than one person is expressing dismay then you might want to re-evaluate.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Wow, thanks for all the responses. So many different ideas, so much thoughfulness, so much to learn. It has helped me clarify what is important to me about this, although I still am not sure how I will address this.

First, the reason the 'disapproval' from DF upset me so much is that I felt I had a stellar parenting week, with a well-behaved (for lack of a better term) toddler/preschooler, and a very sick baby who refused to sleep pretty much the whole week. Only a few incidents arose during the week that needed redirection, and nothing was major. The biggest thing was when DS picked up DD's sippy cup and DD grabbed it out of his hands, making DS cry. (Yes, I did respond to this, in case you are wondering, but that's not the point here so I won't go into how.) If that's as bad as it gets with two kids under three, I'll take it! I also was up night after night with DS and still was pleasant, playful, and patient with DD during the day. So to have things going really well 95% of the time, then be judged on the way I handled the few incidents that arose, with no comment on the good, just felt yucky. I do think this is what happens to moms a lot, but I wasn't expecting it from a friend. That seems to be the source of the distancing I feel is happening, or could happen if left unchecked. Marsupialmom, she is the only one expressing concern. Sometimes my sister does, but she is really different from me (CIO, etc...) and usually the concern is about cosleeping. No one who is around me and the kids often has ever looked askance or showed any worries at all. Generally if anyone expresses anything it is positive.

Second, I don't like DD being judged. I'm with her day in, day out and can read her moods and intentions very well. When she didn't respond to me in the grocery store it is because there was so much going on- people, hummus, lights, music, big boxes on wheely carts, LOBSTERS, that my words just got lost. I'm not even 100% sure she heard me. Failure to listen closely is very different from rudeness in my book, and is pretty age-appropriate. I do have ways of making sure she hears me if I'm afraid she won't or there's a safety issue at hand, but it was a laid back trip to the grocery store and I didn't feel the need. When she said 'no' to lying down on the couch, she was being impulsive. She does have very good verbal skills, but emotionally she's still a toddler and will blurt out the first word that comes to mind. I do give her other words, and usually will ask for a rephrase; in fact, much of our conversations around incidents is me helping her find alternative word choices. She's definitely getting better, but she's not Marshall Rosenberg yet.

Third, the interference, being interrupted when I'm having a conversation with DD, DF talking with DD in ways I don't like (DD actually burst into tears once over 'being shouted at.') I'll just have to nip this in the bud gently yet clearly. 'Only need one disciplinarian here, thanks, you get to be the fun visitor, I'll take over if there's an issue. Enjoy playing!'

On reflection, my reasons for writing here were two-fold, to get some idea of how to address this with DF, which I think I have now. And to know I'm not alone with my priorities. I just don't ascribe to the 'parents as authority' mentality (great description ishyfishie!). I don't insist on my way all the time (except when it comes to safety); to do so seems really selfish ('DC's you must walk through the grocery store at my pace, in the order I deem appropriate, and not stop to look at anything without saying please-mother-may-I first'). I do have priorities and ways of upholding them. But doing what I say, simply because I've said it, or making immaturity into a manners issue just aren't among them.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I don't say "No" to her when she asks me to do something.

This is way OT, but ... really???? Just wondering, what words do you use if when she asks you to do something you cannot or will not do? My DD does hear 'no' from us fairly frequently, more frequently than I'd like. I try to keep things positive, but the sheer quantity of times I have to turn down requests makes it impossible. I do end up saying things like, no, it isn't safe to ride your bike without a helmet, no, you cannot play with the expensive camera, no I'm sorry, we cannot go to the beach when it is raining. When she said no to me, it wasn't that different from all the above times I said no to her, so I'd love to know what you say instead!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Start insisting on compliance every time your friend disagrees and then tell her you learned it from the books she gave you. "We WILL meet at 1:30 P.M. ON THE DOT!!"

"I don't care if you're full, finish your food."








:


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Perhaps your friend thinks you actually care about the issues you aren't pushing?

Could you just tell her that since you didn't care either way you didn't see a need to get in a tizzy over it?


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Is there an applause smiley on this thing?? GOOD FOR YOU, onemomentatatime.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

LOL SC!! hahahaha


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onemomentatatime* 
This is way OT, but ... really???? Just wondering, what words do you use if when she asks you to do something you cannot or will not do? My DD does hear 'no' from us fairly frequently, more frequently than I'd like. I try to keep things positive, but the sheer quantity of times I have to turn down requests makes it impossible. I do end up saying things like, no, it isn't safe to ride your bike without a helmet, no, you cannot play with the expensive camera, no I'm sorry, we cannot go to the beach when it is raining. When she said no to me, it wasn't that different from all the above times I said no to her, so I'd love to know what you say instead!

We certainly say the word 'no' as part of other things.

But it's not the entire phrase unless the discussion has gone on and on and on.

If she asked me to do something, like if she could be all done quiet time, I wouldn't just say 'no' and expect her to accept that answer. In fact, that would probably spark a meltdown no matter how well rested/fed she was. I would complete the sentence and give her more information.

I have no problem with saying 'no' to a child, but I think it should be part of the response, not the entire thing.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I have an almost 3yo (birthday this month) and there is no way I would accept either of those behaviors. They just wouldn't fly in this house. There is no reason for anyone to be rude. I don't say "No" to her when she asks me to do something. Why would I let her do it to me?

Just because kids are little doesn't mean they can't be polite and have good manners. And even if they can't talk very much, that doesn't mean anything either.

How exactly do you enforce that? I have a 2 yo who will be 3 in January, and he's "rude" all the time, if you use the example cited. He's often distracted and runs off while I'm talking to him, but it's not because he's being rude, it's because he's a self-centered, easily distracted 2 yo.

OP, I'm sorry your friend judged you, and your dd. I have felt that pain before, too, especially from those with whom I am very close. I really think it was due to your friend's inexperience with children, but it still hurts. Your dd sounds like a great kid. Way more well-behaved than my previously mentioned same-aged toddler.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
How exactly do you enforce that? I have a 2 yo who will be 3 in January, and he's "rude" all the time, if you use the example cited. He's often distracted and runs off while I'm talking to him, but it's not because he's being rude, it's because he's a self-centered, easily distracted 2 yo.

It's actually quite easy.

At first I would say something like, "DD, it's rude to just say 'No' to mama. It would be more polite to say, 'No thank you mama," or "I don't need to rest anymore, I feel rested." So I'd give her the words to say something more politely.

Now I just say something, "DD, that was kind of rude. Could you please say/ask that more politely?" and then she does.

If she runs off while we're talking to her we ask her to come back, and if she doesn't we'll help her come back. Normally that would just be taking her by the hand back to where we were talking. Then we remind her that we don't walk away while talking to people and carry on with the conversation.

Just because they are naturally self centered and easily distractable doesn't mean that's acceptable behavior that we have to just put up with. Part of parenting is teaching proper behavior.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I do wonder if you expressed demands or requests differently that your friend would "get" that it's fine for your DD to respond with a "no" or walk away. It also might be a generally good practice for when your child is older and there's more of a distinction between "would you" and "we must."

So make a point of asking "Are you ready to go to the produce section?" instead of "We need to go to the produce section." If your friend is still rude to your DD then, you can say "Actually, I asked her a question and she said no. That's a perfectly appropriate response." A few times of that should make it really clear that you like your discipline style and don't need her books etc, but if not, you can say so whenever she offers them.

I have a friend who tends to say "No! Don't push the baby! Okay, sweetie?" And I think "um, don't push the baby is not a question. It's a rule. If the kid said "no, not okay" then you'd let them push the baby?" Re-direction is great, and she does that too, so I don't make a fuss about it. She means "do you understand," and it'll work itself out. I wait for the day that she tells me her oldest DS responded "No, that rule is not okay. I'm gonna push the baby anyway!" At which point I'm sure she'll drop the "okay?" without me ever commenting on it to her.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
Your dd sounds like a great kid. Way more well-behaved than my previously mentioned same-aged toddler.

OT to Fuamami: All kids are great! And they all have their stuff and stages. I'd have written a very different post six months ago. Yup, that was me at the playground, shadowing my kid everywhere, stopping her from pushing other kids and saying 'use your words, not your hands,' or some variation. But that stage passed, as they all do.


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## Susan Kunkel (Jul 13, 2005)

You should parent your child the way that seems right to you. Try to ignore when advice comes.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
It's actually quite easy.

At first I would say something like, "DD, it's rude to just say 'No' to mama. It would be more polite to say, 'No thank you mama," or "I don't need to rest anymore, I feel rested." So I'd give her the words to say something more politely.

Now I just say something, "DD, that was kind of rude. Could you please say/ask that more politely?" and then she does.

If she runs off while we're talking to her we ask her to come back, and if she doesn't we'll help her come back. Normally that would just be taking her by the hand back to where we were talking. Then we remind her that we don't walk away while talking to people and carry on with the conversation.

Just because they are naturally self centered and easily distractable doesn't mean that's acceptable behavior that we have to just put up with. Part of parenting is teaching proper behavior.

Really? I can't see nit picking behavior this much when there is so much else to gripe about all day. At almost three, I am much more concerned with "Please don't hit your sister on the head AGAIN" than I am "That wasn't a very polite way to speak to me". We ARE working on manners (Please, thank you, excuse me, may I, etc.) and on some situations, like asking for toys or turns instead of snatching, but if people are working on semantics like this, my child must be WAY behind, and I generally think he's a pretty polite little kid.

And if you really want to be accurate, saying, "It's not polite to say 'no' to mama" doesn't really work. It's just fine to say no, it's just not fine to be curt. This seems like an awfully complicated social grace to be pushing on a 3yo, IMO.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
Is there an applause smiley on this thing?? GOOD FOR YOU, onemomentatatime.









It's







.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SactoMommy* 
Really? I can't see nit picking behavior this much when there is so much else to gripe about all day. At almost three, I am much more concerned with "Please don't hit your sister on the head AGAIN" than I am "That wasn't a very polite way to speak to me". We ARE working on manners (Please, thank you, excuse me, may I, etc.) and on some situations, like asking for toys or turns instead of snatching, but if people are working on semantics like this, my child must be WAY behind, and I generally think he's a pretty polite little kid.

And if you really want to be accurate, saying, "It's not polite to say 'no' to mama" doesn't really work. It's just fine to say no, it's just not fine to be curt. This seems like an awfully complicated social grace to be pushing on a 3yo, IMO.

And you're allowed to focus on teaching your child what you think is appropriate and I'm allowed to do the same.

My child does just fine with these expectations. I think that often people underestimate what children are capable of and dumb down their requests.

I don't really like badly behaved children and I want my DD to be someone I enjoy spending time with. That means that I will teach her manners earlier rather than later and then we'll have a blast spending time together.

Our family works on respecting each other and their time. Without respect we would struggle. So DD has been expected to use politeness words (signs before she could talk and then words) since she was very little. It works for us.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SactoMommy* 
This seems like an awfully complicated social grace to be pushing on a 3yo, IMO.

I agree. I would much rather teach my kids how to be polite by showing example, rather than flat out telling them what they should (or shouldn't) be saying. I ALWAYS use please and thank you when talking to my kids, and when growing up in a household who always uses manners, the children naturally follow. And if they, for whatever reason, forget to use their manners and just say "no" when I ask them to do something, my response to this is a simple "No, thank you!" They always repeat what I just said with a quick "no thank you!", and all is well. I don't ask them to repeat it. They just do. And much sooner than later, being polite is done without thinking (and there is no period of "teaching or correcting manners or politeness" because it's all learned through example).

And going completely OT for a second (if for no other reason than to prove a point to the subject of this entire thread "yes, I will take no for an answer")...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
My child does just fine with these expectations. I think that often people underestimate what children are capable of and dumb down their requests.

I don't really like badly behaved children and I want my DD to be someone I enjoy spending time with. That means that I will teach her manners earlier rather than later and then we'll have a blast spending time together.

It doesn't sound like your children do fine with your expectations at all. What they do fine with, is responding to your demands of being polite, not because they've learned that good manners make other people feel good. It's because you ask or expect it of them, and so they comply. Until they forget and you have to remind them. But do you not think that by telling (or reminding) them what to say you ARE dumbing them down? Kids are way smarter than that and should be taught, not told.

As for your second comment, it's as if you're saying "I don't enjoy you when you don't use manners". By putting a condition on good behavior, this comment goes COMPLETELY against UP (granted, I see a lot of that on this forum). I know (I trust) that this isn't the case at all (and certainly not intentional), but I wanted to give you a different perspective.

If onemomentatatime wants to accept no as an answer in her house, I see nothing wrong with that. "No thank you" will be learned in time, and not because mama said so.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SactoMommy* 
It's







.

Oh hooray!! LOL!!! Thanks!


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
It doesn't sound like your children do fine with your expectations at all. What they do fine with, is responding to your demands of being polite, not because they've learned that good manners make other people feel good. It's because you ask or expect it of them, and so they comply. Until they forget and you have to remind them. But do you not think that by telling (or reminding) them what to say you ARE dumbing them down? Kids are way smarter than that and should be taught, not told.

As for your second comment, it's as if you're saying "I don't enjoy you when you don't use manners". By putting a condition on good behavior, this comment goes COMPLETELY against UP (granted, I see a lot of that on this forum). I know (I trust) that this isn't the case at all (and certainly not intentional), but I wanted to give you a different perspective.

Actually she does great.

And I don't think it's a rule that you always have to like your child or everything that they do. Even in UP, you aren't required to *like* everything.

I don't like it when people are rude to me. It doesn't matter who that person is, I don't like it. Why shouldn't my DD learn that there are people in the world who would rather spend time with polite people than rude people. That seems like a very basic thing to learn.

I know there are times when she doesn't *like* me very much. When I don't want to listen to the same CD yet again and tell her that if she wants to listen to it she can listen in her room she doesn't like me.

Again, it's about respect. Just because she's 3 that doesn't mean that she can be rude to DH or I. Just like it doesn't mean we can be rude to her.

We are a very consensual family. In general, we don't force things on other people. Our common space is for everyone's enjoyment, and we spend time with each other because we want to.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Onemomentatatime I think you're doing a great job.









About the issue of preschoolers and toddlers saying no. It's a normal phase some LOs go through. My DD went through a "no" phase right about 2.5. She would say no to everything even if she meant yes. We knew it was developmentally normal and would go away. We had also decided to teach manners by modeling without any kind of intimidation or punishment. So we'd respond with to her politely and calmly. We even became able to recognize the real nos and the 'yes' nos. DD is almost 4 and her manners have been pretty much in place, most of the time, since couple of months after turning 3. If she feels bad and is rude she even apologizes after she calms down.

We definitely wouldn't say "it's not polite to say no" to anyone even "momma", because people sometimes need to say no to people. My DD's preschool teacher has been teaching her to say "No!, stop" to other kids if the grab something from her or push her. Being comfortable with saying no when you need to say no is important.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

JL83: I never said she didn't "do great" (this is an excellent example of a condition that you've put upon them). I said she's learning to be polite because it's asked and/or expected from you, and not because of how it would affect other people.

But I digress... we're obviously from two completely sides of the barn, so I'll quit commenting to your replies in respect for onemomentatatime's thread.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
Onemomentatatime I think you're doing a great job.









Second (or third, fourth, etc). You're doing an amazing job! Glad to have you as a part of this forum.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
If she runs off while we're talking to her we ask her to come back, and if she doesn't we'll help her come back. Normally that would just be taking her by the hand back to where we were talking. Then we remind her that we don't walk away while talking to people and carry on with the conversation.

Just because they are naturally self centered and easily distractable doesn't mean that's acceptable behavior that we have to just put up with. Part of parenting is teaching proper behavior.

Yes, but my ds would have to be drug back screaming and kicking. He wouldn't be listening any more, he'd wonder why on earth I was hindering him to tell him not to say "no" to me, or whatever.

And I kinda disagree. We do have to put up with it. But they grow out of it. In fact, they learn proper behavior quite well and quite quickly, especially when we model it and teach them in age-appropriate ways. I say this with great confidence because I have two older children with good manners.

I have one more bone to pick, which is kind of small, but I think when you tell a 2yo they did something rude, they think that they are rude. They don't think, as many people suggest, "I made a rude choice! But I'm not a rude person, I can make a polite choice now." It's all about them, you know? It's very hard for them to separate themselves from their actions. Anyway, just something to think about.


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## nikkiethridge (May 6, 2008)

i think you are doing a fine job.

perhaps your friend can't grasp what discipline actually is. i think most parents give a command and expect their child to always DO that command. which yeah, in situations where it's needed (child is being violent, being hateful, harmful ect) then it makes sense. you have to be a parent after all. but i think you seem very reasonable and maybe your friend just doesn't understand what type of situations require more rigorous discipline. if my kid isn't tired...uh...not going to force him down for a nap if he doesn't want one. it's about respect too, not 'my way or the highway attitude' about everything.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nikkiethridge* 
i think most parents give a command and expect their child to always DO that command. which yeah, in situations where it's needed (child is being violent, being hateful, harmful ect) then it makes sense. you have to be a parent after all.

While I do agree with this, I just wanted to add that if a child is being violent or harmful, immediately demanding the behavior to stop doesn't teach the child how his actions hurt the other person. It may teach that violence is not accepted by you, but not why the behavior itself is harmful to others. I agree with taking action when a child is acting in such a way, but I also believe it to be fair to the child by showing your trust that he will make the right choice, and giving him the respect that he needs to make that choice. Explaining the situation, then trusting the child (at least once) that he won't repeat the action again.

I forget what book it was in, but a good example of this is when a teacher saw a boy carrying a large rock. The boy appeared to have intent to throw the rock at another student. The teacher went to the boy and asked the see the rock, then very gently hit the rock on her own head, and then did the same to the boys head, to show that rocks hurt when they hit. She then explained that if the rock were to fall, it could hurt someone. The rock then got handed back to the child, and the child was asked to "carry it carefully". She didn't tell the boy that she knew he was about to throw it, nor did she give a warning or threaten to punish (why would she? He didn't do anything yet). Instead, she showed that she trusted that the boy didn't want to intentionally hurt anyone by handing the rock back to him. And as a result, he decided not to throw it.

Children learn to make good decisions by being allowed to make decisions. This would never happen if us adults are always telling them "we don't do that", or ordering them to act in certain ways (ie. rewards for remembering to use good manners). Sure they might be "well behaved", but to what standards? Because they want to please us, or avoid a punishment? Or are they really thinking about how their behavior might affect someone else.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Hey, everyone, Thanks for all the kind words and support. There are so many interesting things to think about in the responses I've read this morning. What children can learn at different times, what good behavior really is, when and how and if to 'force' compliance to our requests.

I once saw a quote on a forum that we're not raising children, we're raising adults. I guess this goes along with the UP principle of keeping an eye on the long term goals. What is it I really want here, is it a person who follows directions first time asked, someone who can make good choices, or something else.

I wonder if the problem is that when the desired outcome is so different from what observers are expecting (i.e., a healthy adult who can make good choices vs obedient children right her, right now), they cannot see the actual techniques we are using. Since immediately compliance isn't forced ('yes, you must go lie down on the couch because that's what I said, I'm the adult, your the child, you do what I say') the teaching about making good choices isn't seen (no? you mean no thank you, right. Well, let's talk about this, why don't you want to lie down, you're not tired. So if you were tired you'd lie down, but since you're not, you don't want to lie down. OK, you're learning to listen to your body's signals, keep it up.). With someone expecting the former (immediate compliance), the latter seems to be completely missing the point (and vice versa!). I also think that many people who expect the former have a view of kids as trying to get away with stuff, and might not believe a child's reasoning, expecting them to try to manipulate and pull one over on the parent.

It's why I love the UP book- it really helped me think through my expectations and assumptions so I can parent more creatively.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

I don't think it's wrong to teach the proper behavior or responses before a child is old enough to understand the why of it. I have a 13yo and a 9yo and I parent like JL83. I do expect and enforce politeness and obedience. It's my job to keep my children safe (obedience) and teach them how to get along in society (politeness) and it's okay for them to know the truth. The truth is that I won't be around rude people if I can help it. Parenting this way did NOT stunt their developement in anyway. They still learned the "whys" when they were ready to. But in the mean time, while we were waiting for them to be ready to learn the whys.....they were very pleasant people to live with. And people didn't avoid me because of my children. I currently have friends that I don't spend much time with becuase it isn't enjoyable to be around them when they have their kids with them. It's too stressful. So our friendship is kind of abbreviated right now....limited to phone contact and grown up activities, until their children outgrow the stages they are in.

I don't expect obedience when I'm asking my chidlren to do something, because if I'm asking....it's a request, and it's okay to decline a request. But if I'm TELLING them to do something or not to do something I DO expect obedience. I think the key is to save the TELLING for when it's important.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

I should clarify.

The only thing I expect "obedience" with is if I yell "STOP! FREEZE!". That's our family's phrase for telling DD that either she's about to do something dangerous (which could cause serious injury or death, I'm not talking about bumps or scrapes) or we can see something's about to happen. We even made a game when she was about 2 of practicing after the one day she ran into the middle of the road when we were out for a walk. Before that day she'd happily walked along the side walk and then she just suddenly took off.

I don't expect obedience with really anything else. I'm open to discussion and compromise. I just expect that it will be done politely and with respect. Just like I said "we don't hit, use gentle hands" LONG before she was old enough to actually learn that distinction, I say "Please don't use your rude voice, can you say that politely," now even though she's probably too young to fully grasp the idea. But just like when she was 1 and would "gently" pet the cat a couple times before going back to enthusiastic whacking, at not quite 3 she can rephrase a "NOOOOOOO!" into something more polite like "no thank you," or "I don't want to wear my shoes, I want to wear my pink boots".


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## 3*is*magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
I don't think it's wrong to teach the proper behavior or responses before a child is old enough to understand the why of it. I have a 13yo and a 9yo and I parent like JL83. I do expect and enforce politeness and obedience. It's my job to keep my children safe (obedience) and teach them how to get along in society (politeness) and it's okay for them to know the truth. The truth is that I won't be around rude people if I can help it. Parenting this way did NOT stunt their developement in anyway. They still learned the "whys" when they were ready to. But in the mean time, while we were waiting for them to be ready to learn the whys.....they were very pleasant people to live with. And people didn't avoid me because of my children. I currently have friends that I don't spend much time with becuase it isn't enjoyable to be around them when they have their kids with them. It's too stressful. So our friendship is kind of abbreviated right now....limited to phone contact and grown up activities, until their children outgrow the stages they are in.

I don't expect obedience when I'm asking my chidlren to do something, because if I'm asking....it's a request, and it's okay to decline a request. But if I'm TELLING them to do something or not to do something I DO expect obedience. I think the key is to save the TELLING for when it's important.

I strive to parent this way as well







.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onemomentatatime* 
Wow, thanks for all the responses. So many different ideas, so much thoughfulness, so much to learn. It has helped me clarify what is important to me about this, although I still am not sure how I will address this.

First, the reason the 'disapproval' from DF upset me so much is that I felt I had a stellar parenting week, with a well-behaved (for lack of a better term) toddler/preschooler, and a very sick baby who refused to sleep pretty much the whole week. Only a few incidents arose during the week that needed redirection, and nothing was major. The biggest thing was when DS picked up DD's sippy cup and DD grabbed it out of his hands, making DS cry. (Yes, I did respond to this, in case you are wondering, but that's not the point here so I won't go into how.) If that's as bad as it gets with two kids under three, I'll take it! I also was up night after night with DS and still was pleasant, playful, and patient with DD during the day. So to have things going really well 95% of the time, then be judged on the way I handled the few incidents that arose, with no comment on the good, just felt yucky. I do think this is what happens to moms a lot, but I wasn't expecting it from a friend. That seems to be the source of the distancing I feel is happening, or could happen if left unchecked. Marsupialmom, she is the only one expressing concern. Sometimes my sister does, but she is really different from me (CIO, etc...) and usually the concern is about cosleeping. No one who is around me and the kids often has ever looked askance or showed any worries at all. Generally if anyone expresses anything it is positive.

Second, I don't like DD being judged. I'm with her day in, day out and can read her moods and intentions very well. When she didn't respond to me in the grocery store it is because there was so much going on- people, hummus, lights, music, big boxes on wheely carts, LOBSTERS, that my words just got lost. I'm not even 100% sure she heard me. Failure to listen closely is very different from rudeness in my book, and is pretty age-appropriate. I do have ways of making sure she hears me if I'm afraid she won't or there's a safety issue at hand, but it was a laid back trip to the grocery store and I didn't feel the need. When she said 'no' to lying down on the couch, she was being impulsive. She does have very good verbal skills, but emotionally she's still a toddler and will blurt out the first word that comes to mind. I do give her other words, and usually will ask for a rephrase; in fact, much of our conversations around incidents is me helping her find alternative word choices. She's definitely getting better, but she's not Marshall Rosenberg yet.

Third, the interference, being interrupted when I'm having a conversation with DD, DF talking with DD in ways I don't like (DD actually burst into tears once over 'being shouted at.') I'll just have to nip this in the bud gently yet clearly. 'Only need one disciplinarian here, thanks, you get to be the fun visitor, I'll take over if there's an issue. Enjoy playing!'

On reflection, my reasons for writing here were two-fold, to get some idea of how to address this with DF, which I think I have now. And to know I'm not alone with my priorities. I just don't ascribe to the 'parents as authority' mentality (great description ishyfishie!). I don't insist on my way all the time (except when it comes to safety); to do so seems really selfish ('DC's you must walk through the grocery store at my pace, in the order I deem appropriate, and not stop to look at anything without saying please-mother-may-I first'). I do have priorities and ways of upholding them. But doing what I say, simply because I've said it, or making immaturity into a manners issue just aren't among them.

I think your friend is not a real friend. I've had "friends" like that and I actually cut them off about a year and a half ago. I cut the two off that made me feel the worst. One kept telling me that I didn't work







. Actually told me that again and again. Another was unkind to my child and that's a hill I will, in fact, die on. Another, on the other hand, is single and genuinely doesn't get it. She loves the girls so I have her in our lives but don't ever tell her about my day or my struggles. It's not the same friendship is was, put it's still there. So that's what has worked for me.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

But demanding behaviors of your children _is_ controlled parenting. "We don't do that", and "if you do this first then you can have that" both give you control over the certain behavior (including manners). Whenever I hear someone ask that their child "obey" I get very nervous about what that child's home life is like. In JL83's example she states that the only that obedience is asked is that they "freeze" when there is danger, but this is not true. She expects them to obey her rule of using good manners. So if you're not asking them to obey your rule of being polite, what are you asking of them? I also get nervous when a parent says "That's how I was raised and I turned out just fine".

The same applies for giving two choices on a matter that they don't have a choice about in the first place. And when they pick the wrong choice, the parents get mad. Putting an expectation on your child _is_ expecting them to "obey" your rule (in this example, it's manners). "We must be polite", and when they are not polite, we show disappointment by asking "Where are your manners", or by telling them that they're being rude and asking them to rephrase what they just said. "You didn't answer me right. Please answer me again".

It doesn't make you're wrong to parent this way. It's just not UP, so don't pretend that it is.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

I'm curious...

For all you parents who expect/demand please and thank you's, how many of you force apologies?


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
It doesn't make you're wrong to parent this way. It's just not UP, so don't pretend that it is.

Never claimed to be UP, but I am GP. I respond honestly to my children. If I pretended that rudeness didn't bother me I'd be lying to them. I've NEVER forced an apology, I apologize for them if they don't do it on their own. I don't force please and thankyou either, though I do teach it. If a request is made with a polite tone of voice and it's a reasonable request, I'll comply. But if a rude or demanding tone is used I'll call them on it.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Just to clarify, I was speaking in general. I see a LOT of non-UP parents on this forum (which is great to have on a parenting forum), but I don't see how putting expectations on our children, then showing them disapproval when they don't comply, a form of gentle discipline at all. I'm kind of confused by this, is all.

There's only one person that I've seen on this forum (so far) that I believe shouldn't be offering advice. Only because I believe their parenting method is FAR from gentle discipline - not because I think they are a bad parent (I don't).


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

This thread has gotten way, WAY off topic... My apologies to onemomentatatime.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
This thread has gotten way, WAY off topic... My apologies to onemomentatatime.

No apologies needed, this is fascinating! I so rarely get to have an in depth discussion about these issues that it is great to hear different viewpoints.

One thing I am aware of is that we are only getting a partial view of others' parenting styles. We don't see one another at all, let alone in context. And we don't know one anothers' kids. Those parents who are not asking for/expecting rephrases when their child says no instead of no thank you may have children who are not developmentally there yet. And those parents who are asking for rephrases may have kids who are ready for that. It's not like we're talking about 10 year olds here. It makes sense that one two year old might be ready for no thank you, please, etc... and another isn't. So we may all be focusing on different things AND be 100% appropriate with our children because we know them best.


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## BellaClaudia (Aug 1, 2008)

I also don't have time to read repplies of others but
I wanted to join the hugging crowd that is just like you.

I put comfort and need for exploring my child first.
I build around my child whenever I can and I would
negotiate solutions with my child if I had to do something else.

it breads reason and logic and teaches making choices
that arre superior in my mind then just grabbing a child
by the hand and pulling behind like a tail.

my example: from early on I let my kid to play in a store with
anything she likes if she does it safely and gently and she does.
and so if she asks for something from the shelf as I push her
in shopping cart to play with she knows the rules..
I hand her a spatula... an onion.. a bag of cerial to explore pictures on it
and she would do so..
and when it is time to leave the store she will put everything away
on simple request to do so without ANY fight.

some people hiss on me when they see that I permit her to play with Anything in the store and say: you will never see it back, you will have to buy it now,s he won't let you have it.. etc..

so this is where I am.. and i am happy with it.

as to your friend.. I would say simply that she has obviously different approach to discipline and I do have different one, it is normal as each of us grew up and experienced it differently and now we have different needs and approach to it..

and so let's just accept our differences since and although I don't necsserly agree with her choices I do not judge her or suggest that she should change them because i see she is comfortable with them and so she must know what she is doing and why just the same way I know why I am the way I am as a parent and I don't think that anyone from outside my family and my conciousness besides my husband has or should have a right to direct us
since we and only we will have to live with the results, not her.

just the same as she would not be probably willing to live with your results then she should leave those choices to you.

note: don't worry, immature people usually can't imagine and comprehend the fact that this is non of their business really and although good friend..
she should not do that.

parenitng is like medicine.. first we should do no harm.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
I do wonder if you expressed demands or requests differently that your friend would "get" that it's fine for your DD to respond with a "no" or walk away. It also might be a generally good practice for when your child is older and there's more of a distinction between "would you" and "we must."

So make a point of asking "Are you ready to go to the produce section?" instead of "We need to go to the produce section." If your friend is still rude to your DD then, you can say "Actually, I asked her a question and she said no. That's a perfectly appropriate response." A few times of that should make it really clear that you like your discipline style and don't need her books etc, but if not, you can say so whenever she offers them.

I know, I'm quoting myself, but I think changing what you say could be very helpful. I think is perfectly within UP, it's the difference between DH asking me "Where do you want to go for dinner?" and "We need to be at Blah restaurant at 8."


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
I know, I'm quoting myself, but I think changing what you say could be very helpful. I think is perfectly within UP, it's the difference between DH asking me "Where do you want to go for dinner?" and "We need to be at Blah restaurant at 8."

I agree with this.

We try very hard to ask questions rather than give orders.

Asking "Are you ready to leave?" on your way out of a store (where DD is often looking at something) gives an opportunity for the child to say "No, I want to keep looking at this." And the the parent can easily negotiate. And that feels MUCH different than the parent saying "It's time to go," and having the kid say "No" and then basically giving into that.

I think the first way sets up a nice relationship where everyone's needs are taken into account and the child is given a voice. The second way sets up a situation where the child controls what happens and has much more power than would happen in an actual equal relationship.


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