# Parents keep child's sex secret - What do you think?



## MOMYS (Nov 5, 2008)

http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/babiespregnancy/babies/article/995112--parents-keep-child-s-gender-secret


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## Cyllya (Jun 10, 2009)

I wouldn't go as far as to hide my child's sex after it was born, but I agree with all their points.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

our three year old knows (only if asked) what he is but he is being raised gender neutral

we did say his sex when he was born but requested ONLY gender neutral clothing/toys and still do

he is dressed neutral and gets a far better reception from strangers since they think he is not a male

we are raising him neutral and plan to keep this as long as we can


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## weliveintheforest (Sep 3, 2005)

A swedish couple was in the news for doing the same thing a couple years ago. I haven't ever seen an update on that story, it would be interesting to see how things changed as the child got older.


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## beckybird (Mar 29, 2009)

I don't really have an opinion about it, but I did think this was kind of funny:

"What we noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children. It's obnoxious," says Stocker.

I thought this was funny, because these parents are making a choice for their children by choosing to raise them "genderless".


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

I doubt how much this impacts a kid in the long-term. Interesting social experiment but not much value,imo, beyond that.


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## siemeeers (Dec 6, 2010)

It's admirable for the reasons they state, but I have to wonder how long they can keep it up. I mean, their other children were not raised by keeping their sex a secret, and based on the few photos, it doesn't seem like they have been super affected by "gender roles" that society creates.

One of my prof's last quarter told us how her daughter was raising her daughter gender neutral. I mean, everyone knew she was a girl, but the mom refused to accept any pink gifts. Of course, as soon as the girl was old enough to talk, or know how to point out what she wanted, she wanted EVERYTHING pink! Kudos to the parents for letting their daughter make her own decision about what she wanted. And just because she wanted pink does NOT mean that their plan failed... she wanted it, and that's what's important!

I think as long as those parents in the OP really do let their child decide how to live based on gender roles, it will be wonderful. But I'm not quite sure how it will affect hir in the future. I mean, it will all depend on how s/he sees hirself, because even though we hate to admit it, gender is probably the easiest way we have to define ourselves.


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## Spring Lily (Sep 26, 2006)

There's nothing wrong with letting a child tell you what their gender is (because that has nothing to do with genitalia) and what they're like, but by making such a big deal about it, they're putting a huge weight on their kids. Like this:
Quote:


> But he doesn't like being called a girl. Recently, he asked his mom to write a note on his application to the High Park Nature Centre because he likes the group leaders and wants them to know he's a boy.


It's obviously bothering the kid to some extent. Instead of just letting the kid be who he is, the parents are burdening him with also having to inform people of his gender and deal with assumptions and judgement. That puts him in the middle between society and his parents. Maybe some of his "don't care" attitude has to do with not wanting to upset his parents.

The problem is that gender has to do with the way your brain works. You can dress a boy however you want or call him gender neutral pronouns all day, but what it comes down to is that males and females have certain interests and aesthetics and that will come out in the end. It definitely is creating a divide between him and the average child, like with them keeping him out of school to protect him from having to deal with comments and questions. It just seems like the parents are making a lot of big choices for him in saying that they're letting him make choices for himself.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:


> he is dressed neutral and gets a far better reception from strangers since they think he is not a male


I'm curious about this. How do you dress a child gender-neutral? I mean, I realise not all clothes are pink or blue, but the vast majority of commercial clothes are "coded" to some degree - button-down shirts, cargo pants, stockings etc are generally viewed as "more" male or female. The only exception I can think of is maybe plain T-shirts in certain colours. But if people who meet your DS think he's female, is that what he's wearing - plain T-shirts and trousers - or clothes that are more often associated with girls?

I'm just mentally trawling through DD's wardrobe, trying to think of all the gender-neutral stuff she has. Not a lot. She likes dresses and pink and purple - the latter NOT by my urging - but even her less "girly" stuff is still, well, girly to a degree. She has one button-down shirt my grandmother bought her, which was made for boys (I don't think Grandma would have bought it if she'd realised - heh!), but even her brown corduroy trousers seem pretty obviously designed for a girl, you know?


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> How do you dress a child gender-neutral?


solids & stripes NO pink, NO blue (my DH hates blue!)--same way I dressed my DD! most are hand me downs-she wasn't into dresses

lots of tan shorts and pants plus jeans

tons of vintage clothing (shirts both male and female-no one looks at buttons)-we do 90% recycled clothing(by choice not because of $), mostly vintage (50-& 60's)

what "patterned" shirts we have are old and can go either way

we did a navy pea coat this winter

our raincoat is a turtle

we use a windbreaker

high-top sneakers (yellow, green black)

strap sandals

his undies are new, JC Penny's solid colors and patterns with dots and flowers-socks are white mostly with blue and red, solid and some old fold-down white ankles

it's really very easy when you don't buy at a box store or at a mall, old stuff is made better and last longer


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> I'm curious about this. How do you dress a child gender-neutral? I mean, I realise not all clothes are pink or blue, but the vast majority of commercial clothes are "coded" to some degree - button-down shirts, cargo pants, stockings etc are generally viewed as "more" male or female. The only exception I can think of is maybe plain T-shirts in certain colours. But if people who meet your DS think he's female, is that what he's wearing - plain T-shirts and trousers - or clothes that are more often associated with girls?
> 
> I'm just mentally trawling through DD's wardrobe, trying to think of all the gender-neutral stuff she has. Not a lot. She likes dresses and pink and purple - the latter NOT by my urging - but even her less "girly" stuff is still, well, girly to a degree. She has one button-down shirt my grandmother bought her, which was made for boys (I don't think Grandma would have bought it if she'd realised - heh!), but even her brown corduroy trousers seem pretty obviously designed for a girl, you know?


I think "boy" clothes can be more gender-neutral. "Girl clothes" seem to have lots of pleats and bows and pink and flowers and dresses -- the clothes are just cut to scream "girl"... but "boy clothes" tend to have simpler lines, basic colors, less patterns, etc. I guess we dress DS gender-neutral, though some of his clothes do seem more boyish and others seem more girly (his clothes are all hand-me-downs)... Like he has a plaid dress shirt that he wears to church, which seems "boyish" (though still lots of people mistake him for a girl when he wears it) and he has girl's sandals that are mary-jane style, gray with pink trim... we don't have dresses/skirts/lace/monster trucks/batman shirts/etc. for him though. I find that his long hair just makes people not even LOOK at his clothes -- they just assume he's a girl, no matter what he's wearing... I save all DS's clothes for future kids, and whether we have another boy or a girl next time around, he/she will wear the same set of clothes. I think it would be harder with a girl though -- grandma has already talked about buying little dresses etc. for our yet-to-be-conceived baby girl. That kind of frustrates me. Some clothes are just hard to pass of as neutral...

I don't think I could keep my child's sex a secret (even though IRL we don't make a big deal out of him being a boy and if people refer to him as 'she' I don't say a thing). I feel like secrets could make my child feel ashamed of who he/she really is. There's no shame in being male or female and you can still question gender norms without making it all a big secret.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

we dress our child in gender neutral clothing and are raising her neutrally. she isn't currently being pressured by society or the media to conform to gender stereotypes (helps that we're tv free and she's home all day) and is therefore able to choose *for herself* what she is interested in. she is currently obsessed with tractors if that gives you a sense of where we are. i think that for many people it is just much easier to go along with what is currently prescribed as relating to particular gender ideals, and whenever these posts come up, there are always snarky folks... i'm kind of over debating it with people. it's pretty obvious that the trend is to highly stereotype children, their clothing, their toys and their activities. we're trying to get beyond all that.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I think it's ridiculous, personally. I agree with what Sping Lily wrote. It seems like the parent's 'cause' and a good way to alienate the child. I mean what happens when they go to school? as someone who was brought up 'different' from my peers (not gender related) it's something I'd never do to my kids unless they signaled some kind of need.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BeckyBird*
> 
> I don't really have an opinion about it, but I did think this was kind of funny:
> 
> ...


I thought that was funny too! I think the ultimate helicopter parent is the one who protects their child from gender identity! I do think, however, that baby clothes have gotten ridiculous lately with the whole gender distinction. I was looking at pictures of my dad when he was a baby, and he was in a white lacy dress (circa 1943 England). As a cloth diaperer, I think putting a baby boy in a dress would be awesome!


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> I mean what happens when they go to school?


they get into school and find out how bigoted some people are (and have been raised by parents that do not understand gender issues))

they become ostracized and many are bullied, some commit suicide, others are scared for life-------------please look at the trasngender, gay community, etc


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> they get into school and find out how bigoted some people are (and have been raised by parents that do not understand gender issues))
> 
> they become ostracized and many are bullied, some commit suicide, others are scared for life-------------please look at the trasngender, gay community, etc


but what if this is not a transgender child? What if this child has no gender confusion at all? Except that which the parent has created for them?

IDK maybe I just don't get it.


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## mommy212 (Mar 2, 2010)

I guess the biggest thing this would change would be what people bought for the child. Personally I don't think dresses or toy trucks are the issue. The issue is if a boy asks for a baby doll or a girl asks for a toy truck and you say no, that's not for girls/boys. I plan on letting my LO choose his toys and clothes. I think the genderless thing is odd, but to each their own


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

I don't let DD choose her own clothes for logistical reasons (ie, I don't have enough money to let my two year old decide what she needs). I do let her guide me with toy buying, however. She loves trains and cars etc. She also loves to build with blocks. Right now, if I had to guess what her career choice would be, I would say engineer or architect.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> I think it's ridiculous, personally. I agree with what Sping Lily wrote. It seems like the parent's 'cause' and a good way to alienate the child. I mean what happens when they go to school? as someone who was brought up 'different' from my peers (not gender related) it's something I'd never do to my kids unless they signaled some kind of need.


you realize that not all children go to school, right? unschooling and homeschooling are a few choices.

and you also realize that there are parents, such as myself, who strive for gender neutral parenting, as i posted above. i don't think it's very kind to call someone's parenting choice 'ridiculous.'


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mommy212*
> 
> I guess the biggest thing this would change would be what people bought for the child.


Very true. If your child is genderless, you certainly don't have to deal with people buying dresses and frilly pink dolls or an excessive amount of trucks. I bet it will be interesting to see what the child chooses & naturally gravitates toward.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> you realize that not all children go to school, right? unschooling and homeschooling are a few choices.
> 
> and you also realize that there are parents, such as myself, who strive for gender neutral parenting, as i posted above. i don't think it's very kind to call someone's parenting choice 'ridiculous.'


Do you refuse to disclose your child's gender? I really can't take back that I think that's ridiculous. It's not meant to be unkind as much as I find the whole thing so unbelievable.

Presumably (hopefully?) with home and unschooling there is still some peer interaction.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> I bet it will be interesting to see what the child chooses & naturally gravitates toward.


thus far my child has no interest in "boy toys" nor "girl toys"-even with lots of exposure

he goes towards neutral toys---play kitchen, grocery stores, blocks, medical kit, stuffed animals, crayons & paints and dolls-has both male and female (we do not view dolls as a GIRL toy-his stuffed animals have food made for them in his kitchen)

he likes wheels, not cars-he is not into pink at all things are not referred to as for boys or girls toys or pushed that this is what boys or girls do

I don't get how it is some how expectable to push a child into a cultural gender but if you don't there is something wrong with that?

Quote:


> Presumably (hopefully?) with home and unschooling there is still some peer interaction.


and both sexes can play and learn together-it's really easy-there are no boy lessons, no girl lessons-math is not a gender issue, reading is not a gender issue

peers to play together---most people have "friends" NOT based on their gender









if I was gay I would not be friends with EVERYONE else that was gay just because I was gay--same goes for non-gender issue people---------interests are NON-gender!

I had lots of NON-gay male friends growing up that loved fashion and cooking and "woman's issues"-ahhhhhhhh!


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> Do you refuse to disclose your child's gender? I really can't take back that I think that's ridiculous. It's not meant to be unkind as much as I find the whole thing so unbelievable.
> 
> Presumably (hopefully?) with home and unschooling there is still some peer interaction.


we don't know our child's gender. we do know the sex.

sex is biological. gender is a social construction, and presumably what she can figure out on her own how she wants to perform it.

we do not tell strangers unless they point blank ask us. people assume dd is a boy b/c she's not in pink and has very short hair (we don't cut it, she's just still a baldy) and we're ok with that. once people think she's a girl the language they use changes in their interactions.. as in "oh so pretty" rather than "alert" or whatever.

the kids she interacts with don't really see her naked so they really don't care. she runs and plays with them, etc. sex matters much less to children than it does their parents.. especially with the under 3 crowd.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> thus far my child has no interest in "boy toys" nor "girl toys"-even with lots of exposure
> 
> ...


But many people (not me!!) would argue that a kitchen, dolls, etc. are 'girl' toys, not 'neutral'. I was thinking about this & had a hard time figuring out what DS leans toward. He is really not into toys, but he loves real tools, real cars/trucks... I guess those are 'boy' things... but he also loves cooking, cleaning, etc. I think he is just a well-rounded kid, with no regard to whether he 'should' or 'shouldn't' like something. Fortunately I've never had anyone say outright that he couldn't do/use/play with XYZ because he's a boy. I also haven't really noticed people treating him differently whether they think he's a boy or a girl, though we do get comments ("Oh, I thought he was a girl because of ____" -- his long hair, pink water bottle, girl's shoes, etc. or "Are you going to cut his hair?")


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BeckyBird*
> 
> I don't really have an opinion about it, but I did think this was kind of funny:
> 
> ...


I agree.

When I lived in Hawaii, our neighbors had a daughter that they were raising "gender neutral". They kept saying it's because they wanted her to choose her own gender. But, they were so controlling that every time she tried to do something "girly", they would intervene. She was the same age as my niece, and she would get excited when she saw Emily go out to the yard to play, and she'd run over to play with Emily.... but, soon her parents would steer her towards boy toys, and away from Em's girl toys.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

So, does the family in the article avoid pronoun usage altogether? Can't use "he" or "she" in public? Siblings have to keep the baby's sex a secret? Can't talk to their friends about their brother/sister? That's an unfair burden on the children.

FWIW, we're homeschoolers and I agree with D_McG that being secretive about a child's sex is ridiculous. At some point, other children will want to know if they're playing with a boy or a girl, even if they happily will play with either. All of the kids I know would find a sexless child to be weird and uncomfortable to be around. I think extremist behavior, in general, is ridiculous and sometimes dangerous.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

cool. i thought we were here to support each other not offer judgey criticisms. but maybe that is just me. been seeing a whole lot of the latter around here lately. and.. just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not a legitimate viewpoint. thanks y'all.


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## MOMYS (Nov 5, 2008)

I love reading everyone's opinions.

Hildare, I must admit that I think it is awesome that we are not a collective, but people who are individuals and have our own opinions and don't always agree. Not agreeing and having a different opinion doesn't make one judgey 

I have always seen judgement on MDC, especially towards mainstream parenting that AP parents might not understand  I have seen judgemental criticism on every forum I've ever been on. It is human nature.

I posted the link to this article here because I knew it would spark some interesting conversation. And it challenges us ALL to see things from different perspectives.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> cool. i thought we were here to support each other not offer judgey criticisms. but maybe that is just me. been seeing a whole lot of the latter around here lately. and.. just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not a legitimate viewpoint. thanks y'all.


The OP posted about a family in a news article. She did not post about her own family. She also asked what people thought about the family in the news article. Nobody was asking for support on this thread. If posters do not want honest responses, they would not ask for thoughts.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MOMYS*
> 
> I love reading everyone's opinions.
> 
> ...


calling someone's parenting ridiculous in my opinion crosses that boundary into judgey.

and, no. it is not 'human nature.' it is learned behavior to faction and fight rather than support the community as a whole. just like sexism, exploitation and sexual predation of children are learned behaviors, which is one reason we're trying to parent neutrally.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

There ARE biological differences between the sexes but most of them aren't reflected by what society puts into the "boy" category and the "girl" category. For instance, although boys and girls might differ in how their language and social skills develop, there's no biological basis for girls liking pink (it used to be a "boy color"!) or play kitchens more than boys. My dd's favorite color is blue and she doesn't like playing with baby dolls, and virtually every little boy I know likes to push a play stroller and get his toenails painted.

We don't raise dd completely "gender neutral," but we do emphasize that there are no such things as "boy colors" and "girl colors," "boy toys" and "girl toys," "boy haircuts" and "girl haircuts." My dd likes to wear dresses and barrettes, but I don't want her ever to feel like HAS to like those things because she's a girl. We try to buy basic toys (Legos, blocks, etc.) in primary colors instead of the "girls'" versions which are inevitably pink and we avoid gendered slogans on clothing (Diva, Shopaholic, Princess, etc.), but she's gotten a few Barbies and princess as gifts, and we certainly don't ban them. I don't want to shield my dd from "girly" things, but I also don't want her to think that those things define "girlness"--so if she wants to cut her hair super short or never wear another dress again, great. In the same way, I would happily buy a boy trucks or race cars, but I would make sure that he knew that dolls, pink, long hair, dresses, etc. were also available to him if those are things he wanted.

I think it's extremely important for my dd to know that she can define herself in any way she chooses, but I also don't want to use her to make my own political statement, yk? Anyway, I was a Barbie addict as a kid, and I still grew up to be a crunchy, queer feminist. :lol


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## MOMYS (Nov 5, 2008)

You are entitled to your opinion, Hildare.

NYCVeg, we have only boys, but our boys have always played with pretty much what a previous poster mentioned as gender neutral toys. Some love cars, others don't. Some like dolls, others don't. I think in our home it has way more to do with individual personalities, than social construction.


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## Rylins mama (Aug 22, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mommy212*
> 
> I guess the biggest thing this would change would be what people bought for the child. Personally I don't think dresses or toy trucks are the issue. The issue is if a boy asks for a baby doll or a girl asks for a toy truck and you say no, that's not for girls/boys. I plan on letting my LO choose his toys and clothes. I think the genderless thing is odd, but to each their own


I agree with this. I dont get it at all, but its not my business if someone else is doing it. I dont vaccinate but its my children and my business what I decide for them so I feel like this is the same type of thing. But I do agree that I think its also about not forcing a child to be into all girl stuff or all boy stuff. My DD is VERY girly but thats not something I ever forced on her, it actually drives me nuts that I cant get her to wear shorts or pants and she will only wear dresses. At the same time she likes playing with her brothers toys and DS likes playing with her barbies and baby dolls too. She even dresses him up like a princess all the time and he loves it and I have no problem with that.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

I am all for gender equality and tossing out gender roles, I really am... but I don't think that happens by keeping a child's sex a secret. People don't even know the difference between sex and gender so all this does is make people really uncomfortable and possibly risk a new type of confusion in the child who's sex is a secret until they can share their gender.

I see no problem with not feeling the need to share the sex of one's child (in fact, I had a whole conversation once with a stranger about my son... there was never an opportunity to use female pronouns or her name.. it was mostly the other person talking... and I don't feel the need to correct someone) but I think that is completely different from purposely hiding the sex completely as a means to bring awareness to the yucky gender roles people expect even young children to start filling.

I have a child with the sex characteristics of females of our species. That is a fact and hiding it doesn't really help her in any way. She couldn't care less what she wears and is happy in shorts, dresses, and naked. She loves to play outside in the dirt digging and catching bugs. She thinks her kitchen is amazing and often cooks me up some treats. She likes to swaddle her babies and put them to sleep making sure I know to be quiet. She loves pushing cars down the hallway and having her wooden animals chase each other roaring. Dinosaurs are her favorite. She loves the pink heart necklace she got for her birthday and enjoys putting it on with her tutu and my heels.

the best way I can support her right to gender freedom is to embrace every one of those characteristics and to not allow anyone to tell her she can't do something because of an assumed idea that her sex is the same as her gender and that gender has rules assigned to it. The best thing I can do to support her as a person is to be open and accepting should she tell me the female pronouns do not match her whether she wants to surgically change her sex or not.

Keeping a baby's sex a secret isn't the same as not making sure everyone knows what the sex is. Keeping the sex of a baby a secret doesn't get people to change their ideas about gender as easily as just telling someone to stop pushing gender stereotypes on a child because those stereotypes just don't work.

I don't care about the sex of babies... it is fun to know, but it is the same to me as knowing eye color or which parents nose it has... Interesting and fun, but can still be changed in adulthood and doesn't say anything about the character the baby will grow into. Hiding the sex of a baby is akin to me as hiding hair color. I think we can do better to heal gender roles.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

They should let their child be who she is meant to be. The child will know whether she is a girl or boy eventually. I had a mother who did not want anything "girl" around at all, dolls, pink, etc. We had to have super short hair. I think that repressing your child that much and keeping those things away is wrong. Let the child know what he or she is, don't try to convince her to hide it as if she is ashamed (I suspect this is a girl). And if she likes trucks, let her play with trucks, if she likes dolls, so be it. I think it is just wrong to do what they are doing.


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## 4midablemama (Jul 29, 2010)

There's support, and then there's bowing down to the majority opinion because we fear that we will offend someone or hurt someone's feelings. I am firmly in the minority opinion on this topic, and since I assume that we are all grown-ups, I have no fear of causing offense or hurt feelings because I trust that ya'll will understand that I am voicing my opinion on this subject and not looking to attack the parenting choices of others. That being said, I think this whole "let's hide the baby's gender!" thing is goofy, and that this child will eventually end up resenting being saddled with the burden of explanations that his/her parents already claim to be so tired of. The fact is that we, as male and female, are born with biological differences; I accept the fact that some people truly feel that they were "born in the wrong bodies", I very much believe that people are born with their sexual preference, that being gay or lesbian is not a choice, but for the most part, men are men and women are women and no amount of dressing your kid in gender-neutral clothes and coaching them to not conform to the "rules" of one particular sex is going to change that. I have a 5 year-old daughter and a 2 year-old son; when my daughter was a baby, my favorite outfit for her was a pair of Army green cargo pants and a Beatles t-shirt. I dressed her in that fashion equally as often as I dressed her in "girly" clothes, simply because that's the way I preferred to dress her (she's a total girly-girl now, and I NOTHING to do with that) but when people called her a "handsome boy", I very quickly corrected them, because she IS, biologically, a girl. The same goes for my son, who now wears his sister's hand-me-down pajamas, girly or not, because nobody's going to see him and it wouldn't matter if they did, they're just pajamas. By the same token, I have never, ever told one of my children that they couldn't play with a particular toy or participate in a particular activity because it was specifically for girls or specifically for boys; my daughter plays with trucks, my son clomps around in pink Disney Princess high heels, in our house, you can play or do whatever happens to blow your hair back at that particular moment. My kids are too young for me to be imprinting them with MY social views or MY beliefs about how the world should work; my job is to teach them to be tolerant, and kind, and hard working and faithful, the rest, they will have to decide for themselves as they grown and mature.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

That is really a matter of your perception. Recently I read another thread about a mom who was really concerned when she found out she was having a daughter because her perception was that her child would get a far better reception if she were male. I mean this gently, but I think it is possible to impose our own biases, fears, etc., onto our children related to gender identity. If you really believe your son will be better received by those who think he is a girl, I would want to examine my own feelings a little more closely. I think there is a lot of value in raising our children, male or female, to understand and believe that they don't have to conform to any specific gender roles. If someone were to come into our house and observe our "stuff", they would not be able to tell the gender of our child. If they were to guess, I bet 90% would guess female and be wrong. Still, my son is male and I want him to be proud of that just as I will want my daughter if I have one to also be proud of her gender. If a child gets the idea that their gender is being hidden, I can imagine all the possibilities they may come up with in their minds for why, and most of them would negatively impact a child's self esteem. The fact that my son is male isn't just a cultural construct. It is a biological fact. I guess I just really don't understand why there should be such a huge effort to suppress that. Boys can play will dolls, girls can play with trucks, yes. But to indicate to my child in any way that he would be better received by hiding the fact that he is male isn't up my alley and could lead to a whole new string of issues. And in regards to going to school and being bullied, etc... I am assuming you mean that could happen if your child was transgendered? The chances of that are very small and you could address that and embrace it if it came up. To me though, imposing my ideas of total gender neutrality and secrecy onto my child is not allowing my child to form their own identity. It is just too pushy, to me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> he is dressed neutral and gets a far better reception from strangers since they think he is not a male


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> That is really a matter of your perception. Recently I read another thread about a mom who was really concerned when she found out she was having a daughter because her perception was that her child would get a far better reception if she were male. I mean this gently, but I think it is possible to impose our own biases, fears, etc., onto our children related to gender identity. If you really believe your son will be better received by those who think he is a girl, I would want to examine my own feelings a little more closely. I think there is a lot of value in raising our children, male or female, to understand and believe that they don't have to conform to any specific gender roles. If someone were to come into our house and observe our "stuff", they would not be able to tell the gender of our child. If they were to guess, I bet 90% would guess female and be wrong. Still, my son is male and I want him to be proud of that just as I will want my daughter if I have one to also be proud of her gender. If a child gets the idea that their gender is being hidden, I can imagine all the possibilities they may come up with in their minds for why, and most of them would negatively impact a child's self esteem. The fact that my son is male isn't just a cultural construct. It is a biological fact. I guess I just really don't understand why there should be such a huge effort to suppress that. Boys can play will dolls, girls can play with trucks, yes. But to indicate to my child in any way that he would be better received by hiding the fact that he is male isn't up my alley and could lead to a whole new string of issues. And in regards to going to school and being bullied, etc... I am assuming you mean that could happen if your child was transgendered? The chances of that are very small and you could address that and embrace it if it came up. To me though, imposing my ideas of total gender neutrality and secrecy onto my child is not allowing my child to form their own identity. It is just too pushy, to me.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


you could not be father and more off base from the truth

minor examples--------When our DS's hair was short- no one even thought he was a male--------I got and now still do with long hair "he can't be a boy-he's too cute"

He talked early and is very advanced-----I have gotten more negative comments direct at him and us when we are in public IF it is thought he is a male!

We let people draw their own conclusion we DO NOT force an agenda. This in NO way means we are not proud of who he is-sex is not gender.

sorry, but you really do not have a clue!


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

As Hildare says, SEX IS NOT GENDER.

Sex is genitalia. There are more than two sexes. Sex, like gender, is a spectrum. Many children are intersex at birth, and then some doctor makes an arbitrary call on the sex of the child and sometimes performs surgery. This is not all that uncommon. Many children are raised as "girls", only to find out at puberty that - wait... there's a penis. Or vice versa. How small does a penis have to be in order for a little "boy" to be a little "girl". Doctors are often faced with that (often arbitrary) decision. Imagine the confusion, the pain... for everyone involved. And, not because their body necessarily causes them pain, or because there is anything inherently wrong with it, but because of social stigma. So, yeah, I caution parents who think that gender theory doesn't apply to their kids. It might.


An estimation of 1/100 people have bodies that don't conform to "male" or "female" stereotypes. So for every other person diagnosed with autism (1/500), there is someone whose natural, born body doesn't fit our societal notion of "male" or "female".
An estimation of 1-2/1000 people receive surgery to "normalize" genital appearance.

I believe that it's incredibly unfortunate, that with this many intersex people, not to mention all the queer/trans people who are out, that we're performing surgeries on people to have them conform to gender binary stereotypes.

I think that when people decide that gender-neutrality in parenting is "ridiculous", it's a direct result of society's standards for boy/girl, male/female sex/gender binaries. Not all cultures have functioned this way. Many Native American (and other indigenous) tribes honored the gender/sex spectrum as a facet to their spirituality. Our need to label our children is purely a construct of society.

Yes, there are the many effects of hormones that often (not always) coincide with genitalia. Sometimes our children's' genitalia can give us insight into the chemicals that might be buzzing in their bodies. BUT many men can lactate and many women can ejaculate, and many of these hormones intersect, overlap, and exist in different quantities, regardless of body shape/type.

A parent doesn't have to know that a child will identify as trans to make gender-neutral care the right choice for them. These parents stand by their choices based on their insight into the science and politics of sex/gender.

This isn't simply about blue and pink, kitchens and trucks. This is about bodies and the fact that gender/sex is a spectrum. A healthy child can have "male" and "female" genitalia. A healthy child knows that they will be loved unconditionally and without bias, regardless of their bodies, gender choices and presentations as they grow up.

Suicide rates, depression statistics and oppressive legislation will not change until parents stop berating each other for challenging gender and sex stereotypes.

Parents that insist on the necessity of choosing "he" or "she" pronouns for everyone's children are pushing their own agenda, which was handed to them by a very harmful convention.

Perpetuating the status quo is harmful to everyone, and deadly to many. Kudos to them for challenging it. We should be thankful for them. Our future, and that of our gender-transcendent children will be better for this kind of learning and thinking. Lucky kids.

Some Intersex Statistics - http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

Genderqueer and Androgynous Pronouns - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gender%20neutral%20pronoun


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

I forgot---------"boys don't cry" it is OK if your girl does in public









"strangers" make lovely comments to children all the time (yet some how we are "harming" him and not being proud---yea!)

I WILL continue to *not* make my child's gender be what other's see first----regardless of the narrow minded rude individuals that make such comments


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

You know, for a while I was thinking to myself that I could sort of see where they were coming from, because I'm another one who allows my kids to do what they like and ignore gender stereotypes....ds likes to cook, dd likes trucks, etc. I don't, however, try to force them to be something they are not. My ds is a boy. He likes to run around crashing things together. My dd loves nail polish and glitter. I'm not going to tell her she can't be pink and girly because she needs to defy stereotypes. That is equally as repressive. That is kind of what I see going on with families like these. You can't tell me they don't beam with delight when their boy picks out a frilly pink dress, because these parents *like* being different and maing their point. They can't make their point if they have a boy who likes buzz cuts and a girl who wants to wear sparkly high heels. Their kid is going to pick up on that.

But aside from all that I resent the idea of these people trying to hide what their child is. Either the child is a girl, or it is a boy. It's not a kangaroo. It's a human. and there are two options. Does that mean that the child might not grow up and decide that he/she was born in the wrong body? It's possible. Gender confusion happens. I knew a kid who was born with both genitalia and he struggled with this. But the fact is that at THIS time, this is a girl child, or this is a boy child. Trying to act like that is not the case is just ridiculous and also makes me mad because there are so many other things that people get judges for, that can't be hidden or changed. We have to learn to love ourselves as we are, regardless of what society tells us. When my son was born, I picked his nae carefully, so that his ethnicity would be represented, but not be obvious on college applications and job applications. But I didn't wrap him up so that no one could tell he was Puerto Rican and black, in case they might have stereotypes about how a Puerto Rican/black boy should act. There are plenty of times (when dealing with the school system, especially) when I wish that people did NOT know his ethnicity, because they classify him based on that. But his skin color is a fact of life. My best option as a parent is to teach him to rise above people who think that he should talk, act, or dress a certain way because of who he is, be that his gender, race or anything else. But these people are white. This thought probably never crossed their mind. It never occurred to them that you can't have everything the way YOU want it, because that's not how the world works. You don't get to control other people. You ony get to control your own self.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> You know, for a while I was thinking to myself that I could sort of see where they were coming from, because I'm another one who allows my kids to do what they like and ignore gender stereotypes....ds likes to cook, dd likes trucks, etc. I don't, however, try to force them to be something they are not. My ds is a boy. He likes to run around crashing things together. My dd loves nail polish and glitter. I'm not going to tell her she can't be pink and girly because she needs to defy stereotypes. That is equally as repressive. That is kind of what I see going on with families like these. You can't tell me they don't beam with delight when their boy picks out a frilly pink dress, because these parents *like* being different and maing their point. They can't make their point if they have a boy who likes buzz cuts and a girl who wants to wear sparkly high heels. Their kid is going to pick up on that.
> 
> But aside from all that I resent the idea of these people trying to hide what their child is. Either the child is a girl, or it is a boy. It's not a kangaroo. It's a human. and there are two options. Does that mean that the child might not grow up and decide that he/she was born in the wrong body? It's possible. Gender confusion happens. I knew a kid who was born with both genitalia and he struggled with this. But the fact is that at THIS time, *this is a girl child, or this is a boy child*. Trying to act like that is not the case is just ridiculous and also makes me mad because there are so many other things that people get judges for, that can't be hidden or changed. We have to learn to love ourselves as we are, regardless of what society tells us. When my son was born, I picked his nae carefully, so that his ethnicity would be represented, but not be obvious on college applications and job applications. But I didn't wrap him up so that no one could tell he was Puerto Rican and black, in case they might have stereotypes about how a Puerto Rican/black boy should act. There are plenty of times (when dealing with the school system, especially) when I wish that people did NOT know his ethnicity, because they classify him based on that. But his skin color is a fact of life. My best option as a parent is to teach him to rise above people who think that he should talk, act, or dress a certain way because of who he is, be that his gender, race or anything else. But these people are white. This thought probably never crossed their mind. It never occurred to them that you can't have everything the way YOU want it, because that's not how the world works. You don't get to control other people. You ony get to control your own self.


No. I have many genderqueer friends who are neither "man" or "woman". I know trans and intersex children. I have experience with gender-choosing and gender-transcendence. This child is a child, until this child decides their gender. Most parents choose their children's gender. And I'm fine with that, but it isn't inherent in their sex. Saying that it is feels like an insult to me and to my very queer family/community. Why should a parent be forced or pressured to assign a gender to their child, when they want to welcome their child to create their own gender identity?


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

I see nothing wrong with raising a child to ignore or overcome artificial cultural boundaries around sex and gender. I don't think publicly denying a child's sex is the way to do it though. They seem like parents with good intentions. Of course, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

There is something disquieting about parents who turn their child into the subject of an experiment - even a personal experiment with no thought of a future book or movie deal. I question who really benefits from this experiment. The parents get to demonstrate how wonderfully progressive and unbiased they are. I'm not sure what the goal is for the child - who presumably will know what sex s/he is and can learn, like so many other people have, that s/he is not limited by that biology.

I've been thinking about how long they can keep hiding it. I suppose they can avoid public sex identification for quite awhile, especially if they unschool. As the child grows older, they must be planning on using family washrooms, joining co-ed sports teams only (often popular until adolescence anyway), and avoiding any activities that sort by sex. It seems to me that they can do all of that anyway, without the secrecy, and instill positive attitudes about sex and gender in their child. If the child and family have healthy attitudes about sex and gender, hiding and secrecy seems unnecessary and more likely to cause problems than solve them.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ollyoxenfree*
> 
> I see nothing wrong with raising a child to ignore or overcome artificial cultural boundaries around sex and gender. I don't think publicly denying a child's sex is the way to do it though. They seem like parents with good intentions. Of course, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.
> 
> ...


I just don't feel like genitalia is anyone else's business. I have many queer/trans people in my life who resent questions about their genitalia. I don't get those questions because I'm not currently identifying as trans and I have a femme identity, but really - if I presented differently, I'd be weary of people asking me genitalia questions. Why should that matter, really? And child androgyny is not a social experiment at this point, it's been around for a very long time, regardless of mainstream exposure. With support and love, it is not necessarily any less socially healthy than an assigned gender, considering the backlash of the binary we've perpetuated and used to oppress (and kill) all kinds of people over thousands of years.

I have a hard time when people label anything that's uncomfortable to them as an "experiment". Every bloody choice we make could be labeled that way. I experiment with paint and hairstyles, for goodness sake. Making a well thought-out (perhaps motivated by experience or study) parenting decision is not experimentation. It's a choice. And if it's about loving your child and does not seem to cause them pain, it should be respected.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> No. I have many genderqueer friends who are neither "man" or "woman". I know trans and intersex children. I have experience with gender-choosing and gender-transcendence. This child is a child, until this child decides their gender. Most parents choose their children's gender. And I'm fine with that, but it isn't inherent in their sex. Saying that it is feels like an insult to me and to my very queer family/community. Why should a parent be forced or pressured to assign a gender to their child, when they want to welcome their child to create their own gender identity?


So you're saying that penisdoes not equal boy, and vagina does not equal girl? Then what IS a boy? What IS a girl? Because if the genitalia of the individual don't determine gender, then it must be behavior and social preferences that determine it, which basically goes right back to stereotyping. I mean Ijust can't fathom how this works. If a child with a penis happens to love dresses, and sparkly nail polish and mostly wants to play with girls, and eventually grows up and falls in love with a man, does that mean that person is actually a female? because then what you are telling me is that dresses and sparkly nail polish and loving men is what makes one a female.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> So you're saying that penisdoes not equal boy, and vagina does not equal girl? Then what IS a boy? What IS a girl? Because if the genitalia of the individual don't determine gender, then it must be behavior and social preferences that determine it, which basically goes right back to stereotyping. I mean Ijust can't fathom how this works. If a child with a penis happens to love dresses, and sparkly nail polish and mostly wants to play with girls, and eventually grows up and falls in love with a man, does that mean that person is actually a female? because then what you are telling me is that dresses and sparkly nail polish and loving men is what makes one a female.


This is a whole anthropological and philosophical area of study, so maybe I won't do it complete justice, but here goes:

It means that the terms "boy" and "girl" are terms that are irrelevant until chosen. It's conceivable that a person may sometimes identify as a man and sometimes as a woman and sometimes as both or neither, depending on what that means to them, given a whole combination of things. Sometimes it's about hair or body-feel or "femme"/"butch" identity. Sometimes a person doesn't have a gender identity, per say. Sometimes people identify as asexual, androgynous AND trans. This is about what these labels mean to them, since there is *no* proper scientific/biological use of the words "boy" and "girl". These terms mean nothing to people who study the human body. But they may be helpful in describing self-identities, depending on who you're talking to and why.

So, I am a queer, genderqueer (but not trans, even though they often correlate) femme. When given a choice between "man" and "woman", I am a woman, because that term is more endeared to me and my personal identity, but it doesn't hold much weight about my body, as many of the women I know have very different bodies from mine. I'm currently fine with either so-called "female" pronouns (she/her) , or androgynous prounouns (they/them, zi/zir, co).

Also, many people have a penis and a vulva, and there is nothing wrong with them. So penis can't conceivably only mean boy and a vulva can't only mean girl.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Serenbat: Thanks for the pictures! Those are pretty gender-neutral clothes. I don't personally shop at big box stores (I try to avoid MIC stuff, at least when it's new), and I'm not a huge fan of pink, so I was wondering where all her pink stuff came from... duh, hand-me-downs. (And of course, relatives' "I know you don't like stuff made in sweatshops, but I bought DD these" gifts... which is a whole 'nother story...) I suppose if someone with a three-year-old boy gave me hand-me-downs there's plenty of stuff she could wear, but no-one's likely to! And I suspect she wouldn't go for it anyway - she really is a fan of the frills and the pink. I was thrilled when she requested a blue fairy dress for dancing class, and that's hardly the epitome of a gender-neutral outfit!


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I have to say, that while I fully support the idea of raising a gender neutral child, I have such mixed feelings about it comes to my daughter. Living in an archosubculture for so long, one of the things that have I found to be slightly upsetting about people wanting children to be raised neutral is the fact that there is some assumption that you are letting them "pick" there own gender as they grow older. I know people who are in their 30's and still havent made up their minds about whether they identify more as a male or female or neither. That is okay, but I want my daughter to be PROUD to be a girl, at least until she decides that she doesnt feel like a girl and doesnt want to be a girl. People are people before they are boys are girls, but coming from a family where women have not always excelled in education or at having opinions, I want to raise a strong, proud, self confident, smart, girl. If she wants to play with tractors, eat mud, and wear all boys clothes in a couple of years- fine. If she wants to play with sticks, eat wild food, camp in the woods, and run around naked- thats fine. If she wants to play tea party, bake, and wear a princess dress every single day of her life- thats fine too. Right now, she is a baby. I dress her in whatever people give me, and she plays with blocks, cars, kitchen stuff, dolls, ducks, but mostly, the stuff we dont want her to play with. To me, its more about NOT making desicions for every little thing she does than it is making desicions about what she is and isnt exposed to so that she may or may not be one way or another.

But, more power to the mamas who are raising their child genderless. I just dont have the energy to fight with all the people who give me free clothes


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Interesting conversation. I need to reread it when I have more time.

My 2 cents.....I think it is fine to raise children in a gender neutral way. Gender neutral toys and clothes when they are young, followed by letting them decide when they are ready. Pointing out stereotypes and the like.

I think refusing to tell people your children's gender goes too far. It makes it seem like there is something wrong with being a boy or a girl - and there isn't. It also draws attention to a kid that they may not want as they age. I am almost always against making our children poster children for our causes.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Interesting conversation. I need to reread it when I have more time.
> 
> ...


Kathy, there's nothing wrong with being a boy or a girl. Gender does not correlate with sex. So, I would argue, the parents can't reveal the gender - to their minds, they don't know it yet because the child hasn't chosen one. They could reveal the sex, but why should they be obliged to discuss their child's genitalia with everyone who asks, particularly when these people are presumably going to use genitalia to assign a gender?


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## macandcheese (Jun 22, 2010)

To add to the discussion on gender identity, here's a pretty cool clip from National Geographic that profiles the Bugis of Indonesia, who have five established and accepted genders:

http://genderfork.com/2009/the-bugis-five-genders/

FWIW, my child clearly has male genitalia and we are raising him as a boy, but we don't place any expectations on his gender. He's got boy, girl, and gender non-specific clothes, toys, books, etc., and we hope this helps to mitigate any cultural/societal expectations about his gender performance.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> Kathy, there's nothing wrong with being a boy or a girl. Gender does not correlate with sex. So, I would argue, the parents can't reveal the gender - to their minds, they don't know it yet because the child hasn't chosen one. They could reveal the sex, but why should they be obliged to discuss their child's genitalia with everyone who asks, particularly when these people are presumably going to use genitalia to assign a gender?


First off - I really do need to reread this thread because many of the ideas are new to me.

That being said - I do not think they are obliged to reveal the sex. I just think revealing it in some circumstances may be better than hiding it. Hiding things is not usually good. There is a line between hiding and not revealing - and as long as they stay in "you know this is none of your business and should not affect things" and does not delve into drawing attention to the matter through secretiveness, fine. Sometimes being super secretive actually draws more attention to an issue than it warrants. Of course that is not their fault -but it is how society works and it is their child, and it would concern me.

I think we all to some extent make our children stand out through our choices. Johnny does not eat sugar, Johnny does not watch tv, Johnny does not go to school....Whenever we make our kids stand out through our choices we better be sure that what we are doing it for is really in their best interest. I imagine the parents believe the pros of not revealing the childs sex outweigh the negatives. I would not make the same call - but I am not Storms parents.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> I just think revealing it in some circumstances may be better than hiding it. Hiding things is not usually good.


that would be nice if the world was perfect!

in the real world (as for the US) we judge people

one of the first things out of an adult when they meet another is "what do you do for a living"? not who are you?

with children is is a judgement from birth if gender is not know

it was my DH that would not tell anyone what the sex was prior to birth and it is he that will not correct a stranger (I am more likely too and most times they are not paying attention anyway!!!) - it was my DH that requested gender neutral items and really is pushing this ------- *he hates the way males are treated in US society.*


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## Sourire (May 4, 2009)

Interesting topic.

I have a friend with a 2-year old girl who always dresses her baby in pink and dresses and lace and frills. When the baby was born she told me how utterly terrified she was of someone thinking the baby was a boy or accidentally calling it a boy or having to ask the gender. According to my friend any of those situations would have been extremely upsetting to her as a mother. When she was telling me this story I remember thinking to myself "why on earth would you care what gender other people think your kids are?"

My friend is one extreme of the spectrum. The parents in the article are the other. I think both sides may have a point although I would not choose to go either route. I will probably fall somewhere in the middle... though where exactly I am in the middle will surely evolve as I raise my children.

The main reason I personally would not choose to hide the sex of my baby is that my parents were very non-mainstream as a child and I always knew my family was different from the other kids families. I did not enjoy being different as a child (in fact it made me miserable when I was a pre-teen). Although I do embrace being different now, I think my childhood would have been happier if I felt more normal. However if another parent I knew decided to raise their child without disclosing the sex I would probably just get over it, the same way I got over my friend being nuts about people knowing the gender of her child.

It is unfortunate that the choice to raise a gender neutral child is much more "fringe" than the choice to raise a super girly girl who must always wear pink because I think both of these choices are equally extreme and parents who make the two choices should be treated in the same way!


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> you could not be father and more off base from the truth
> 
> ...


The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't have a clue. You say your partner "hates how males are treated" in our society. And you feel there are negative comments directed at your son also solely based on him being male. If you really believe that (which I do not as I think an equal or great number or people would feel females are subject to much more gender negativity) then why don't you work to *change* those stereotypes and biases that you feel will have a negative impact on your son rather than hide his sex?


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

there is a vast difference between hiding and pushing- because we choose not to flaunt you wrong assume we hide

what difference does this make to you? are you effected by seeing my child? why must he be something to you?


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *macandcheese*
> 
> To add to the discussion on gender identity, here's a pretty cool clip from National Geographic that profiles the Bugis of Indonesia, who have five established and accepted genders:
> 
> ...


Cool clip! I love learning about this stuff.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> First off - I really do need to reread this thread because many of the ideas are new to me.
> 
> ...


This especially rings true for me. I do get frustrated when people call seemingly new (to them) choices "experiments". I feel that it's an effort to legitimize an otherwise perfectly fine parenting choice that just makes you have to think differently than you are comfortable with. In reality, parents are making all kinds of important (albeit, more socially-palatable) choices for their kids. And really, not choosing your child's gender is something that will be over once they are able to articulate how they feel about it. It's a choice that will be made, and maybe many times over.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sourire*
> It is unfortunate that the choice to raise a gender neutral child is much more "fringe" than the choice to raise a super girly girl who must always wear pink because I think both of these choices are equally extreme and parents who make the two choices should be treated in the same way!


I think that when we consider where we are on the spectrum, we have to go beyond what's culturally appropriate. Our every-day world is small. If I only heard people count up to 10 over and over again, the number 11 or 15 seem outlandish. Know what I mean? In our culture, we're just so used to confining ourselves and each other in terms of a hard-lined gender binary, but that's not the case everywhere in the world, and everywhere throughout history. When you open up to the idea that there's more to the spectrum than we're used to, and that the spectrum isn't linear, maybe allowing your child to choose their gender identity really no longer appears all that "extreme". It's not a pole of some finite line. In our culture, sure. But inherently? No.

I do agree, however, that pretty extreme, oppressive views of gender tend to be accepted without qualm, because they appear more frequently on our radar. People are more comfortable with sex and gender oppression than they are with sex and gender liberty. That's just the society we live in, unfortunately, but I don't intend to succumb to it. I intend to stand up against it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> it was my DH that would not tell anyone what the sex was prior to birth and it is he that will not correct a stranger (I am more likely too and most times they are not paying attention anyway!!!) - it was my DH that requested gender neutral items and really is pushing this ------- *he hates the way males are treated in US society.*


That's amazing of your DH. I definitely feel that men and boys (and, therefore, all assumed male-bodied people) tend to be deprived of the kind of nurturing and support that all children and people deserve, and that is an act of violence. As a feminist, I also strongly believe that people of all sexes/genders are effected by this as this cycle of violence is perpetuated, largely by cis men, who are often privileged in terms of power and under-nourished in terms of physical familial affection, understanding and love. Cis men need to use their privileges to speak up and act out against patriarchy and oppression, as opposed to taking their taught-aggressions out on those who have less power than they do, or else the cycle of violence will continue.

For the record:

I am not opposed, by any means, to raising children as "girls" or "boys", according to their female/male birth-genitalia IF we are ready to be open or accepting and unconditionally supportive of their child's potential queer/trans presentations or identities in the future. I respect the parents' choice in early childhood. Especially since it can be so hard to face question after question. I have many a radical friend who has chosen to do so, while still actively working against the status quo and gender binary, and having real, productive conversations about the challenges and oppressions that come with that binary. As of yet, I have not made a decision as to whether I will give my child(ren) the pronouns that their genitalia would imply, although I am leaning towards creating an affectionate, one-syllable nick-name/pronoun for my child and asking my family and community members to use it when refering to them.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scottishmommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I don't know. I think the over-genderizing we're doing in this culture (I'm in the US) can be very damaging in ways we probably will never know. But I suppose it would be hard to convince men to go to war if we didn't teach them to idealize it as little boys... and all those other fun childhood lessons.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't have a clue. You say your partner "hates how males are treated" in our society. And you feel there are negative comments directed at your son also solely based on him being male. If you really believe that (which I do not as I think an equal or great number or people would feel females are subject to much more gender negativity) then why don't you work to *change* those stereotypes and biases that you feel will have a negative impact on your son rather than hide his sex?


She and her DH are working to change those stereotypes, simply by seeing their child as a child and not as a gender or a penis. And they are asking others to do the same. They couldn't possibly do anything more powerful than that.

Also, societal negativity and deprivation of emotional support towards men perpetuates and instigates male violence against women and queer folx. It is important to address that this is a dangerous cycle. It's neither the chicken or the egg, but they intend to do their part in stopping male-directed violence towards their son, which I think is absolutely incredible.


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

Hmm. Lots to think about. The parents in the article seem to have an 'agenda,' which is -- I think -- why their approach is rubbing me the wrong way. Ultimately though, we all have various agendas when it comes to our families, so I fully support them in this particular adventure. The more power to them!

My DP is genderqueer, so we have all kinds of discussion on a regular basis about gender and genitals and all that each entail when it comes to raising children. DP is often read as male, actually most often read as male, so we're already a household that bucks the status quo. When it came to our first child, we didn't find out what was between the legs until she was born and the world decided that she was a girl, along with a deluge of gifts of the pink variety, even though we'd collected a layette of gender-neutral items. We're so thankful for hand-me-downs and gifts from family, that we've ended up putting her in way more 'girly' clothes than I would've liked.

We just found out today that we're having a boy. I'm curious to see what people do with this information. I'm curious to see what WE'LL do with this information. I'm thankful that a seemingly straight couple is taking on the gender war, because I'm not sure that I want to do it as a couple of queer parents, which makes people think that we're 'making' our kids queer.

I have questions of myself ... will I cut this boy-child's hair when the only reason I haven't cut dd's hair is because I love that her hair is the hair that she was born with?

Will I encourage 'boy' play? Will I make assumptions about his personality? His interests?

Interesting discussion ... thank you!


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## AttunedMama (Jan 19, 2011)

I love it!!!!!!

Reminds me to reread X: A Fabulous Child's Story to my kids for bedtime. Whee!


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Pretty interesting article. While being raised gender neutral and being raised sexless (at least in the eyes of the world) are different, I guess it does force the rest of the world to question their own beliefs about gender identity, and why knowing the sex is so important to them. I'm not sure who the parents are doing this for, their children, themselves and/or society, but I guess it doesn't really matter. All of those people are affected by it, regardless of motivation.

I grew up in the 70s, one of two daughters who were raised gender neutral. At that time, in my family anyway, but I think in others too, gender neutral really meant "like a boy." Same as feminism really meant "working in the man's world." (Oversimplification, I know...). I am heartened to see that in the intervening decades, gender neutral is starting to include boys being able to do "girl things" and dress in "girl clothes"

Like other posters, I would love a follow up to this story. Say, every ten years for a few decades.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> ...


 IMO- it seem that I am attacked because of my male child while often female children are not view this way- it seems that if a female child is raised to be neutral it is viewed as empowering--"she can DO anything/be what ever she wants" but a male---NO way!! it is emasculating him-must be gender?


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

It seems that perhaps more than anything we just need better words to describe the gender spectrum that so many of us know is there. The binary language (which must be so much harder to get around in languages like Spanish & French with their masculine & feminine) does make things more confusing for us all sometimes.

As for us, ds is a boy & our new little one appears to be a girl. But we really do present a wide range of experiences & views for our family. Ds LOVES trucks, boats, trains, tractors & tools, but he also really likes his kitchen, helping with housework & cooking. He watches dh do all the cooking & helps me put together the new kitchen shelves. Yesterday he told me how Grandma came over to fix the toilet. I think he is getting a very balanced view that men & women can do all sorts of different things regardless of how they identify gender-wise.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I worry about kids being made to demonstrate a point to anybody. I don't want my kids to illustrate a point; I want them to be happy in who they are.

I think we also need to remember development -- it's typical for kids to try on gender roles in preschool -- it's one way that children figure out their gender. So, girls may try out being really girly, and they try out being 'tomboys' or superheros. Boys try out being masculine, and they try out being domestic and 'girly'. Ds went through a phase around age 3 where he loved Dora the Explorer, pink and wanted his nails painted, all the while spending most of his time pretending to be a garbage truck driver. Such exploration is healthy and should be encouraged. I think the problems arise when parents become very uncomfortable with their child trying on 'other' roles, or alternatively, when they become uncomfortable because their children are solidly fixated on the gender that matches their sex.

I guess instead of striving for genderless, I'd prefer to promote gender acceptance. I haven't a clue as to whether the parents in the article are going to achieve that.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

So many thoughts about this.

First, I don't think it's at all hurtful to not express a child's physical sex, but I don't know how helpful it is either. I certainly don't think it's worse than only buying your child super gendered stuff and always having a bow on your bald baby's head out of fear that someone might call her "him".

I worry, as someone else said, that gender neutral is sometimes not that neutral and more boyish, and that things that are more feminine are therefore portrayed as "other" and even not as good. I have two girls and I want them to feel free to be who they are, whoever that is, and enjoy whatever their hearts lead them to, but on the other hand if their genders do meet their physical sex, I don't want to present the idea that being feminine is worse or less neutral than boyish, either.

For instance, this gender neutral child has short hair, which is more often boyish than neutral, and what look like boy clothes to me. Is that true gender neutrality? Is true gender neutrality possible in our society? I don't know the answers but am interested in the questions. My kids sometimes have short hair, sometimes long, sometimes wear pink, sometimes wear just plain old boy clothes. They play with all sorts of toys - boy, girl, neutral, whatever. I hope they know they are loved and will always be loved whatever their hearts tell them about their sexuality and gender, but I will make sure they specifically know if how I'm raising them in our gendered world doesn't make it clear.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

n/m


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> I have a hard time when people label anything that's uncomfortable to them as an "experiment". Every bloody choice we make could be labeled that way. I experiment with paint and hairstyles, for goodness sake. Making a well thought-out (perhaps motivated by experience or study) parenting decision is not experimentation. It's a choice. And if it's about loving your child and does not seem to cause them pain, it should be respected.


My impression was that the parents in the article themselves considered this an experiment, however, on re-reading, the term "experiment" was used by the professionals that the author interviewed and not in any quotations from the parents. I think there is a notion of experimentation on the part of the parents (eg. "It began as an off-hand remark. "Hey, what if we just didn't tell?"", as well as other statements...). I concede that this impression is based solely on information in the article, which is of course has been shaped into that form by the author. Whether the term "experiment" fits or not, as pp stated, the parents in this article have an agenda - which, of course, they are entitled to. I just don't have to agree that it is in the best interests of a child.


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## FAmom (Oct 28, 2010)

I probably shouldn't say anything. Really. But, I am compelled ......

crunchy mommy said this back on page 1:

*I feel like secrets could make my child feel ashamed of who he/she really is. There's no shame in being male or female and you can still question gender norms without making it all a big secret.*

I think, thinking bigger picture, what really is the point to not identifying the sex of your child, stating that you are leaving it up to them, based on something that you think is wrong about society today?

You are essentially choosing to raise your child, in a way, as a reaction to society.

If you really wanted to test the bounds of gender association, shouldn't it be raising a child, to be aware of their sex, and it being more of a "I'm a male, and?"... or "I am a female, so?"

I think raising a child as an "it" to the world, to prove a point to the world, and without just a matter of fact, your sex is not the whole of your identification, but factually are a "male" or "female", really doesn't do much good in helping a child just become who they are without the weight of societal opinion thrust upon them.

How much more would a child learn about gender neutrality if it was actually a factually recognized male, that didn't care about wearing pink? Or play with Barbies? Or a factually recognized girl who liked to play with cars?

Frankly, this whole thing doesn't seem like something really in an overarching way to really be about the kids.

I have 3 boys. That is what they are. I dress them to suit their lifestyle. They pick out their clothes. They choose what toys they want to play with. And, each of them were given a baby doll from their Mom. They all like to play with swords.

They are raised to be who they are, and it isn't about caring about what society says they should be, or like, because of their sex.

They are who they are, and, what? And, that is how I raised them. They know people who will end up mattering in their life will be people who care about them for who they are, inside.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> shouldn't it be raising a child, to be aware of their sex, and it being more of a "I'm a male, and?"... or "I am a female, so?"


what about those children who grow and say NO, I am not a girl, not a boy?

don't they count?

is "society" just to dismiss them-are they sooooooo small of a group no one really cares about them?

this just must not be happening

Quote:


> I have 3 boys. That is what they are.


glad you are so sure about your sons-hope none ever come to you and tell they are not what they are and society has caused them pain

in our personal case it is not about sex it is about treatment and narrow minded view of so many that in fact really do impact so many


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## FAmom (Oct 28, 2010)

*what about those children who grow and say NO, I am not a girl, not a boy?*

*don't they count? *

*is "society" just to dismiss them-are they sooooooo small of a group no one really cares about them?*

*this just must not be happening*

No, it isn't about saying people don't count. Or dismissing them. It is allowing them to decide, for themselves, good intentions of others aside, to decide how to identify themselves.

If there needs to be a new sex indentification category, then so be it.

But, male, female..... if you do fit that fact..... why then make that something that is wrong? To prove a point to society? To take away those rights, of the individuals, that may not fit into those factually identifying assignments, to come up with something that they feel is appropriate?

*glad you are so sure about your sons-hope none ever come to you and tell they are not what they are and society has caused them pain*

My youngest son just came and gave me a kiss with my headband on. And he looked really cute. Fact is, he, is a he.... a male.... he has a penis. And, I don't care that he was wearing a headband, that society would say is just for girls.

For me, my sons are boys. Factoid. If they came to me, and said they felt like they were always in the wrong body, because they identified as a gendered female, I would also not have a problem.

I think, that for us, society already causes my children pain because of medical conditions that they have. I already have to teach them to be okay with who they are. That people that matter will love them for what is on the inside.

Children should never feel shamed for who they are. And, if part of who they are is just factually a boy or girl, fine. So be it. Move on. Gender identification and stereotyping about what kids should like, wear, feel, or do, just based on that, will only really hold if you don't give your child a safe place to be who they are. No matter what. With all the support in the world you can provide.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FAmom*
> 
> I probably shouldn't say anything. Really. But, I am compelled ......
> 
> ...


I'll say it again - Sex is not Gender.

Nobody's claiming that it's necessarily bad to use a gendered pronoun for your child.

First, your genitalia doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with who you are. That's the point here. And there's no shaming Storm about their genitalia. Let's keep in mind that Storm is, as of the publishing of this article, FOUR MONTHS OLD. Their genitalia and how it is talked about to strangers has absolutely nothing to do with anything, unless you're going clothes shopping at the Pink/Blue Girl/Boy Binary store, and can only buy one garment.









Storm is a baby. Storm is a baby. Storm is a baby. Why are we so attached to Storm being a "boy" or a "girl"? Why do we need this? Why is it necessary? By the time Storm is two or three, their parents will be able to talk to them about their body and what that means. And, being a child, Storm will probably want to talk about their genitalia. These are healthy conversations. The only reason that people don't know about Storm's genitalia right now, isn't because of shame - it's because their genitalia is (as it should be) irrelevant, outside of diaper changes and baths.

Again, nobody is raising this child as "an It". That's a pretty yucky accusation, too, and insinuates abuse. I presume they've chosen a gender-neutral pronoun for Storm, as do the many other people who identify neither as "men" or "women". Some of my best friends have chosen They/Them pronouns or Zi/Zir pronouns. Twin Oaks Intentional Community uses "Co/Cos" as a general pronoun for everyone. Just because you've yet to be exposed to gender-neutrality or androgyny doesn't mean it doesn't exist, or that it isn't a healthy way to raise a child (especially an infant).


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ollyoxenfree*
> 
> My impression was that the parents in the article themselves considered this an experiment, however, on re-reading, the term "experiment" was used by the professionals that the author interviewed and not in any quotations from the parents. I think there is a notion of experimentation on the part of the parents (eg. "It began as an off-hand remark. "Hey, what if we just didn't tell?"", as well as other statements...). I concede that this impression is based solely on information in the article, which is of course has been shaped into that form by the author. Whether the term "experiment" fits or not, as pp stated, the parents in this article have an agenda - which, of course, they are entitled to. I just don't have to agree that it is in the best interests of a child.


Well, I wouldn't agree that dressing a female infant in 75%-90% pink is in her best interests, but it happens all the time and nobody's surprised, so nobody gets all upset and insulted. I do believe that this is a matter of exposure. Nobody knows quite what to do when a child doesn't have a declared gender. It feels uncomfortable or even cold/sterile when you're new to it, as if gender identity is the core of someone and not impressing one on a child somehow takes something away from them. I know that when I was new to this, it felt less than comfy. Still, being able to create one's own gender identity, and to feel free and supported in making one's own labeling choices regardless of genitalia, is a great gift. Not every parent is comfortable with it, which I understand, but I think it's important to be open to the choice being a good fit for some families and to, at the very least, respect it as legitimate.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> Well, I wouldn't agree that dressing a female infant in 75%-90% pink is in her best interests,


Okay, I wouldn't dress a child (boy or girl) in 75-90% pink myself but it's just a colour. It's usually going to be obscured by spit, food, vomit, and feces, anyway







.


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## SuburbanHippie (Aug 29, 2008)

Very fascinating discussion. I find myself nodding my head in agreement with habitat's posts. Sex is not gender. Storm being raised as a person instead of gender assigned male or female is one of the most radical things I have heard of in awhile, but I find it amazingly inspiring. Assigning these gender roles is terrible for our society. There are so many things wrong with it that I would need hours to list them all. lol.

When I read this article yesterday, I immediately forwarded it to my feminist philosophy professor. She says she'll be using it in her summer class. Oh how I wish I could retake this class again over the summer. This topic just fascinates me.

Last night I even had a dream that I was raising my baby as Storm's parents are. I did see a penis, but I wasn't going to tell anyone "It's a boy." Instead I just told everyone the name (which unfortunately I don't remember now). I wanted to raise my baby to be a person instead of a truck/car/train obsessed boy in blue.


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## FAmom (Oct 28, 2010)

*Storm is a baby. Storm is a baby. Storm is a baby. Why are we so attached to Storm being a "boy" or a "girl"?*

It is fitting that I am responding today. My son is running around this morning, wearing red, drinking out of an orange cup, wearing my headband, and playing with his Jessie doll. Lots of things that people might say are for girls.

Having a great time.

He is a toddler.

I'm not attached to him being a boy or girl. It is a descriptive. Just one fact, out of many more, that are part of who he is.

Storm is a baby. Agreed. Why is anyone so attached to Storm being a boy, or a girl, or is also so equally attached to the baby not being either?

For me, there was the part of the story where they were in the store, and the one child wanted a boa..... and the sales person said something about not getting it because the child was a boy. And, they walked out and didn't buy it.

Me, I guess in my own, sorrowfully, horrible, way, that does recognize the sex of my children as boys, would have looked at the sales person and said, "So?" and bought the boa for my son.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SuburbanHippie*
> I wanted to raise my baby to be a person instead of a truck/car/train obsessed boy in blue.


See, I guess this is the sort of thing that bothers me. The insinuation or assumption that children raised with gender are nothing but freakish products of society. As if these children, on their own, bring nothing to the table....but are instead fully molded by the people around them.

I raised my kids as boys. They are people. They are individuals with their own quirks, dreams, and desires.

I'm assuming most of the mamas on this board were raised as female. Do you not see yourself as a person? Are you so resentful of the way your parents raised you? I'll tell you what...pink is my favorite color, and I NEVER wore it as a child.

Maybe I'm lucky....my children were raised without people foisting material objects and clothing upon them. I never stressed out about them wearing "wrong" clothing or playing with "wrong" toys, because 99% of what they owned was provided by me and their dad.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> See, I guess this is the sort of thing that bothers me. The insinuation or assumption that children raised with gender are nothing but freakish products of society. As if these children, on their own, bring nothing to the table....but are instead fully molded by the people around them.
> 
> ...


SuburbanHippie raised her son with gender, as a "boy", too. I don't think she's implying that the label "boy" makes them somehow less human or renders them entirely malleable. Obviously, however a child is raised, they are human. I think she was trying to say that she was weary of raising a child that fit the dangerous societal and historical archetype of what a "boy" is, because that would detract from any informed, uncoerced, concious decisions they might freely make about their behaviors/preferences/presentations/identities. According to your post, you are also conscious of this. I don't see a disagreement.

Also, I am not resentful of the way my parents raised me. They raised me according to the options that they had been exposed to. I feel fortunate to have been exposed to more options, some of them preferable to the ones I was raised with. I wasn't nursed very long or fed a diet that was remotely close to pesticide-free, but my children will (to the best of my ability). I will choose what is right for me, given the options that I have.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> IMO- it seem that I am attacked because of my male child while often female children are not view this way- it seems that if a female child is raised to be neutral it is viewed as empowering--"she can DO anything/be what ever she wants" but a male---NO way!! it is emasculating him-must be gender?


I am sorry that you feel attacked because truly that is not my intention. I am seriously trying to understand, but I guess I don't quite get it. If you are not hiding the fact that your son is male, why do you seem so pleased that the way you dress and present him leads people to believe he is *not* male which you consider to be a good thing because he is better received? That is what I don't get. That is where I would start questioning myself and wondering why it was so important to me that people not assume my child is male. Because, obviously, if people assume my child is not male, they are assuming my child is female... and that is where things get confusing to me. That is where I start to worry that the secrecy and deception that I was creating related to my child's sex might negatively impact my child's self esteem and feelings about being male. I know that isn't what you're setting out to do.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> I am seriously trying to understand, but I guess I don't quite get it.


as I did post - try having a two year old and a stranger thinks he is a *she* and IT is crying over something stupid and you are in public and the comment is made "that's OK honey"

now try having the SAME two year old and a stranger thinks he is a *HE* and an he is crying over something stupid and you are in public and the comment is made *"hey, buddy, BOY'S DO NOT cry!"*

you still don't get the impact?

same child, same situation TOTALLY different reply, girls also get offered candy a lot more often

and this goes on and on and on and we are only at age 3 - society has "views" and they bestow them only the youngest and keep reinforcing them until the conform to what is expected

so if my son keeps hearing negative remarks because he is a BOY and doesn't get them if he is perceived as GIRL you think this has no impact later on in life?

are you married, do you have a adult male in you life?----if so please ask what comments he has heard all his life and if he happens to have a sister I can bet he will recall how she was treated as opposed to him- I certainly know this was the case with my DH


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## Snapdragon (Aug 30, 2007)

hmmm- I am trying to respond with my own personal opinion without offending anyone whose opinion differs with mine- but I guess some people feel pretty heated about this subject. I personally don't even understand it. I don't understand the idea of genderlessness. Is that the right term? sorry, there are so many things in life to be educated about and this is just not something I have really encountered much, so I don't even know what is politically correct in this issue. I haven't even read all of this thread so perhaps it is all clarified in here. I guess the issue is that some people have issue with being labeled male or female based on the genetalia etc that they are born with? They feel that this is somehow restricting? I don't really understand that but I respect people's right to feel that way. But for a baby? It just doesn;t make sense to me and it seems to me that to give this idea of being genderless to a baby is putting an adult concept onto a baby. What if they baby wants the definition of being male or female? The whole thing feels- confusing, I guess, to me. And like kind of a burden to give a child. Will they ever label the child a boy or girl or just let the child decide who they are on the inside? I seriously mean no offense to anyone for whom in life this is an issue- I don't even know the correct language. Transgendered? I am familiar with the term but I don't really know the definition. I know that I have a friend who went to a liberal arts college, and there were a group of people who took offense that the women's bathroom had the label women's on it. It was an all women's college. I never understood that.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> as I did post - try having a two year old and a stranger thinks he is a *she* and IT is crying over something stupid and you are in public and the comment is made "that's OK honey"
> 
> ...


Serenbat, I totally understand your anxieties about gender and the fact that you percieve your male child as being oppressed for his male-ness. You are right that comments like "boys don't cry" are violent and uncalled for. People do tend to be gentler to young girls than young boys. However, I do think it's important to realize that the oppression of women in this society is STILL vast, even if it isn't the same. Where boys are wrongly pushed to be "strong", girls are still perceived as the weaker sex. They still generally take their husbands names by default (not criticizing the choice). They still make .77 for every dollar a man makes. They still find themselves in poverty all over the world. They're still looked at as sex objects. Even little girls are heavily marketed very sexualizing clothing. My dad still asks me who's going to do my bike repairs for me. I do them myself, dad. I do them myself.

Homophobia, IMHO, is what tends to drive people to put pressure on boys and men to perform as the binary dictates. People don't want men to "act like women" or boys to "act like girls", because woman are, hands-down, perceived as the inferior sex. We like to deny this in contemporary society, because we like to think that patriarchy and sexism are in the past. Men are "sissies" when they act like women. Why? Because women supposedly have qualities that aren't as wonderfully "masculine" and "strong" as those of men.

I could go on for days. I just don't think that your little boy being pressured by people to perform is a product of discrimination against men as opposed to women. I think it's a product of patriarchy and other gross, dumb, homophobic nonsense.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> as I did post - try having a two year old and a stranger thinks he is a *she* and IT is crying over something stupid and you are in public and the comment is made "that's OK honey"
> 
> ...


I think some of this must be regional. I can't recall anybody ever telling my boys not to cry. We've moved a lot, but my kids grew up on the East Coast...at varying points between Rhode Island and South Carolina. My husband wasn't told that he couldn't cry as a child, but my mid-Western ex-husband was spanked for crying. Culture/society is not homogeneous across the country, so maybe that's why some of us don't seem to truly understand your perspective.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> as I did post - try having a two year old and a stranger thinks he is a *she* and IT is crying over something stupid and you are in public and the comment is made "that's OK honey"
> 
> ...


Okay, I guess I am actually following what you are saying a little tiny bit more now, it is just that I actually disagree with you in a lot of ways. My three year old son cries all the time and gets the rock star treatment in our neighborhood when he's upset (lots of people "oh are you okay? oh here, what can I do for you?") And girls get offered candy more? Is that a scientific fact?

So then you are saying that by being perceived as a girl, your son gets offered more candy and doesn't get told not to cry, and therefore this will positively impact him later in life? I mean, really. I am asking seriously. Because I have a husband, and a son, and my husband has FOUR sisters and is the only boy, and I think he gets preferential treatment due to his sex.

I believe that instead of hiding a child's male sex out of fear of inappropriate comments (which I do agree with you that there are people and places in which boys having emotions is taboo), that we should work on changing attitudes of those rude and insensitive enough to tell our boys not to cry. I think that is a far better way to have a positive impact on our children than to try to have them be perceived as the sex that they aren't. It just doesn't make sense to me. And this isn't about your son to me...you asked before what he was to me and I will tell you--nothing. Obviously. Whatever parenting choices you make are yours to make. Since the dialogue has been opened, I guess I am just trying to understand fully from someone who is essentially choosing to hide their child's sex what the perceived benefit is. I am sure there are an equal number of parents with female children trying to allow the world to perceive their child as male for the perceived benefits of that sex. Sex is a fact. Allowing a child to be raised gender neutral is different than hoping the child will be perceived as the opposite sex.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SuburbanHippie*
> I wanted to raise my baby to be a person instead of a truck/car/train obsessed boy in blue.


Well, my DS is a boy, through and through. For now anyway. He's obsessed with cars, trucks, and trains, and wears a variety of colors, and has a pink flower bath towel, and a pink monkey beach towel. He didn't have any toy trucks until he started talking, and his 3rd word was "tru" (for truck) - I don't know where it came from, but thats HIM - thats not me shaping him to be a "boy", thats just who he is.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> as I did post - try having a two year old and a stranger thinks he is a *she* and IT is crying over something stupid and you are in public and the comment is made "that's OK honey"
> 
> ...


I guess I don't get why you want your DS to be perceived as being a girl either. I would think it would make more sense to, when something negative happens, stand up for him and tell the person saying "Boys don't cry" - "Yes, sometimes boys do cry, and that is perfectly fine with us."


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snapdragon*
> 
> hmmm- I am trying to respond with my own personal opinion without offending anyone whose opinion differs with mine- but I guess some people feel pretty heated about this subject. I personally don't even understand it. I don't understand the idea of genderlessness. Is that the right term? sorry, there are so many things in life to be educated about and this is just not something I have really encountered much, so I don't even know what is politically correct in this issue. I haven't even read all of this thread so perhaps it is all clarified in here. I guess the issue is that some people have issue with being labeled male or female based on the genetalia etc that they are born with? They feel that this is somehow restricting? I don't really understand that but I respect people's right to feel that way. But for a baby? It just doesn;t make sense to me and it seems to me that to give this idea of being genderless to a baby is putting an adult concept onto a baby. What if they baby wants the definition of being male or female? The whole thing feels- confusing, I guess, to me. And like kind of a burden to give a child. Will they ever label the child a boy or girl or just let the child decide who they are on the inside? I seriously mean no offense to anyone for whom in life this is an issue- I don't even know the correct language. Transgendered? I am familiar with the term but I don't really know the definition. I know that I went to a liberal arts college, and there were a group of people who took offense that the women's bathroom had the label women's on it. It was an all women's college. I never understood that.


Just to answer some of your questions the best I can... They're great questions...

*I guess the issue is that some people have issue with being labeled male or female based on the genetalia etc that they are born with?*

Assigning your child a boy/girl label (gender), according to their genitalia (sex), is "putting an adult concept onto a baby". The concept of "boy" and "girl" and all that they imply, are cultural and societal constructs. They are not scientific or biological. The only thing scientific about bodies are the bodies themselves. I have a vulva. That does not make me a woman. My self-identity (which has developed over time and has been effected by many things) makes me a woman. I know plenty of self-identified men with vulvas. I am okay with the assigning of gender labels for infants, and don't think they're inherently harmful to the individual child, as long as the modeling for gender is as fluid and non-constricting as possible, which is so hard to do (perhaps impossible to do entirely, but it's also impossible to avoid all concepts of gender).

*What if they baby wants the definition of being male or female?...Will they ever label the child a boy or girl or just let the child decide who they are on the inside?*

A baby doesn't care about what labels they get. A baby is a baby. An older child may develop a gender identity / pronoun preference, and that should be openly discussed with and accepted by their parent(s), regardless of the gender assignment and birth what the child's presentation (clothes, behavior, hair, etc) and/or pronoun preference becomes. These may also change and develop over time, which is also normal and healthy.

*Transgendered? I am familiar with the term but I don't really know the definition.*

Transgender means a lot of things. Here are a few big ones:

Quote:


> "Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."[2]
> "People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."[3]
> "Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."[4]
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender


*I know that I went to a liberal arts college, and there were a group of people who took offense that the women's bathroom had the label women's on it. It was an all women's college. I never understood that.*
Your school was called an "women's college", but in a time when the definition of "woman" is changing, there is the argument that so should the admittance of gender-specific schools. There has long been a movement to allow transgendered and genderqueer people of any genetalia to enter "women's colleges". Meaning that Male-to-Female (MTF) transgendered women should be allowed admittance, and so should female-to-male (FTM) trans men. Some people at your college likely identified as men (or else not wholeheartedly as women), and were also likely challenging the idea that there was no "male" or "masculine" presence at the school. Also, gender-segregated bathrooms have been an issue for trans folks forever. The "women's room" and "men's room" are unsafe spaces for many trans people, who don't really feel comfortable in either bathroom. There is a lot of advocacy for other bathroom options that aren't gender-specific.


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> Serenbat, I totally understand your anxieties about gender and the fact that you percieve your male child as being oppressed for his male-ness. You are right that comments like "boys don't cry" are violent and uncalled for. People do tend to be gentler to young girls than young boys. However, I do think it's important to realize that the oppression of women in this society is STILL vast, even if it isn't the same. Where boys are wrongly pushed to be "strong", girls are still perceived as the weaker sex. They still generally take their husbands names by default (not criticizing the choice). They still make .77 for every dollar a man makes. They still find themselves in poverty all over the world. They're still looked at as sex objects. Even little girls are heavily marketed very sexualizing clothing. My dad still asks me who's going to do my bike repairs for me. I do them myself, dad. I do them myself.
> 
> ...


I totally agree. Well said.

I was also taught not to cry as a child. It was definitely to get me to be "stronger." Whether that was gender-related (strong like a boy, even though I was a girl) or cultural, I don't know.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> as I did post - try having a two year old and a stranger thinks he is a *she* and IT is crying over something stupid and you are in public and the comment is made "that's OK honey"
> 
> ...


I totally know what you are talking about, and it is a big problem. I do think our society is very hard on men and boys, and it takes a toll on their health and mental well being. 75% of suicides and 90% of murder victims are men. Men die an aveage of 7 years earlier than women. 90% of work place accidental deaths are men. Boys have to register for the draft at 18 years old! Our teenage boys can be slaughtered overseas, and they have no real choice in the matter. There are almost no advocacy groups for men who are victims of domestic violence and abuse. I think we want men to be super tough, and it starts when they are boys. Therefore we tend to ignore huge red flags that signal mental illness etc. And yes I do think it's empowering for girls to act like boys, but not the other way around.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scottishmommy*
> 
> I totally know what you are talking about, and it is a big problem. I do think our society is very hard on men and boys, and it takes a toll on their health and mental well being. 75% of suicides and 90% of murder victims are men. Men die an aveage of 7 years earlier than women. 90% of work place accidental deaths are men. Boys have to register for the draft at 18 years old! Our teenage boys can be slaughtered overseas, and they have no real choice in the matter. *There are almost no advocacy groups for men who are victims of domestic violence and abuse.* I think we want men to be super tough, and it starts when they are boys. Therefore we tend to ignore huge red flags that signal mental illness etc. And yes I do think it's empowering for girls to act like boys, but not the other way around.


And theres a pretty good reason for that - women are far more likely to be victims of DV than men (I don't know the statistics off hand, but its pretty amazing how little it happens to men). Even though society doesn't like it when men are emotional, or do anything that could be considered "weak", society also doesn't like it when men are accused of being abusive, and society shelter men that are accused of being abusive in ways that make it nearly impossible for women to gain protection from their abusers. That is changing, but slowly.


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## AttunedMama (Jan 19, 2011)

The title of the thread/article is way too sensational. Keep it secret? Really?

How about "Parents find kids' genitals so unremarkable that they don't bother to engage in conversations surrounding the matter".

That isn't well-worded....But I think you get the idea.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

It should be noted in our case- when our son was young we got an XY pin and put it on him (usually on his hat)- NO one read it

when we correct (again,I mostly do this-my DH now will not)-people don't listen, some even make remarks that it can't be- when I say he has a penis they just shut up and walk away

we do not dress him like a female, he does not like pink so he doesn't wear it, no thrills, no bows or ribbons

remarks are made to us often, not monthly, but weekly - doesn't matter if his hair is long we use to get more when it was shorter

it involves many things (just within the past three years) -

here is how he was dressed for a breakfast with Santa (a BOYS outfit) and I still needed to be asked "a girl or boy"? - that determines what toy he gets

this past halloween we went out within out neighborhood (where we walked a lot) and about 75% thought he was a girl - he never has had a dress on or dressed to look like a girl

clothing does not matter

what does matter is how he is talked to- *inflection is different and subject matter is too* (I don't see this as changing any time soon!) - to see one treatment and then another it is just like seeing how "fat" people (the ones that are not and put on the suit) get treated or the ones of "color" -somehow others get that their is something wrong with that treatment but not how we treat gender

I have gotten tons of comments not only about his looks but about him, he is highly verbal and has been all his life- "he can't be-boys don't talk like that" etc

it goes on and on

We are doing what we feel is right for our son, we want him to be who he is not who society expects him to be---------really simple. We only wish he was growing up with more children that would be raised like him.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> And girls get offered candy more?


in our case YES

we moved and I had to go to a local hardware store (mom & pop type) - it took them months before the asked if I had two children!!! for the longest time they thought he was a she (I was doing a lot of projects - by the way my DH can not use a hammer all the tools are mine) and I went in almost weekly

sometimes I would only we there for a few mins. didn't matter who was behind the counter-------90+% of the time he was called a female pro-noun (again didn't matter how he was dressed) ONLY on the rare occasion when someone did listen to me and heard me say HE, he was not offered candy

she got offered by several different people on several different occasions

there is also a very big difference in a restaurant as well "look at HER manners" "SHE is so neat" after awhile you just stop correcting people- "I can't believe it's a boy!"

it really does go on and on........

"does she want a flower?"

girls do get things over boy


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> as I did post - try having a two year old and a stranger thinks he is a *she* and IT is crying over something stupid and you are in public and the comment is made "that's OK honey"
> 
> ...


I would not want someone to be heavily involved in my child's life if they were making comments like that.

If it's strangers, well, strangers will assume it's a boy or a girl and make whatever comments they will make, and nothing you can do about that even if you do hide your child's gender.

My DS has never been told anything like that. And no one offers him candy (thankfully!) whether they think he's a girl or a boy.

I just don't get the point in hiding basic biology from a child.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> Assigning your child a boy/girl label (gender), according to their genitalia (sex), is "putting an adult concept onto a baby". The concept of "boy" and "girl" and all that they imply, are cultural and societal constructs. They are not scientific or biological.


I guess I just don't see 'boy' or 'girl' as a gender issue, but a sex issue. To me, those terms describe genitalia, though I agree that society does ascribe certain traits to those terms, but the terms themselves are still about sex.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> I have gotten tons of comments not only about his looks but about him, he is highly verbal and has been all his life- "he can't be-boys don't talk like that" etc


LOL one time I was at a store with DS and someone commented on how verbal my 'daughter' was. She went on & on about her grandson and how he doesn't talk but my DS talks a lot because he's a girl and girls talk sooner than boys. I didn't even have the heart to tell her DS was a boy.

However I just don't agree with girls/women being treated better than boys/men. I think society does huge disservices to both genders.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> I just don't get the point in hiding basic biology from a child.
> 
> I guess I just don't see 'boy' or 'girl' as a gender issue, but a sex issue. To me, those terms describe genitalia, though I agree that society does ascribe certain traits to those terms, but the terms themselves are still about sex.


Who is hiding any child's biology from them? How might one go about hiding a child's biology from them? Maybe I'm confused.

Saying that "boy" and "girl" correlate to genitalia is an outright denial of the legitimacy of trans people everywhere. If I were to identify as a man tomorrow, I would ask you to respect that and use the pronouns that I prefer, just as many people in my community do when they come out as trans or genderqueer. I know it's not what you're intending to do , but your statement is based on your ability to Ignore the reality of the trans community, and the fact that this attitude is so prevalent is ultimately responsible for a lot of hurt and damage.


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## les_oiseau (Apr 9, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scottishmommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


agree. I didn't realize it was considered raising your kids "gender neutral" to choose clothes that don't scream boy or girl and allow them to choose their own interests. This is what we did. I have worked to get away from being a helicopter mom while still protecting my kids from things I think are harmful, such as gender stereotypes. But this is over the top.

And if the parents point is to save the child from the responses they get from the people around him/her it will just be an interesting social experiment that will probably cause a serious lack of a sense of realize for the child.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AttunedMama*
> 
> The title of the thread/article is way too sensational. Keep it secret? Really?
> 
> ...


Ha ha, yes!

I think the very fact that this has garnered so much media attention shows what strong feelings people have about gender and their perceived notions of it.

I can't wait to see the articles about these children when they're older; I think they'll be much healthier and happier than their parents' critics could possibly imagine.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> to see one treatment and then another it is just like seeing how "fat" people (the ones that are not and put on the suit) get treated or the ones of "color" -somehow others get that their is something wrong with that treatment but not how we treat gender


I agree that there can be negative and positive treatment of boys (and girls!) based on gender. That is life. I don't think hiding one's race is the appropriate response to racism and I don't think hiding a child's sex is the appropriate response to sexism. I think it can have serious long term implications for that child's self esteem. But, I am bowing out of this conversation. To each their own.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> And theres a pretty good reason for that - women are far more likely to be victims of DV than men (I don't know the statistics off hand, but its pretty amazing how little it happens to men)"
> 
> ...


----------



## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> Who is hiding any child's biology from them? How might one go about hiding a child's biology from them? Maybe I'm confused.
> 
> Saying that "boy" and "girl" correlate to genitalia is an outright denial of the legitimacy of trans people everywhere. If I were to identify as a man tomorrow, I would ask you to respect that and use the pronouns that I prefer, just as many people in my community do when they come out as trans or genderqueer. I know it's not what you're intending to do , but your statement is based on your ability to Ignore the reality of the trans community, and the fact that this attitude is so prevalent is ultimately responsible for a lot of hurt and damage.


I thought male and female applied to gender and boy/man and girl/woman applied to biology/genitalia. I don't think people are ignoring the reality of a trans community, nor attempting to hurt or damage others if they don't get the (shifting and somewhat nebulous) terminology correct.

This story doesn't sit right with me I think because I am concerned about the role the media is playing in this. It seems either the parents are capitalizing on the media attention to advance an agenda or they have let it get out of control. In either case they seem to have lost sight of what may be truly best for their child (current and future.)

Given that they are an unschooling family in Toronto I find it a bit hard to swallow that they haven't been able to find or create a community around their children which is supportive of children exploring gender identities.


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## cyclamen (Jul 10, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> I agree that there can be negative and positive treatment of boys (and girls!) based on gender. That is life. I don't think hiding one's race is the appropriate response to racism and I don't think hiding a child's sex is the appropriate response to sexism. I think it can have serious long term implications for that child's self esteem. But, I am bowing out of this conversation. To each their own.


In the article, I think the mom says they aren't running home for every diaper change - ie, they aren't really hiding anything. They just aren't discussing it. And I think that's fair. I don't enjoy it when strangers ask me about my race, not I am ashamed of who I am, or because I am afraid of racism. I just feel it's no one's business but my own - if I wanna share, I will. And I've had people get downright angry because they think I am hiding something. What? I can't imagine. But I can see why someone might feel similar about gender - that it's really no one's business but their own.

This thread got me thinking about my own relationship to my daughter's gender. I rarely discuss her gender with people. I don't say, "But she is a girl" if people call her "he." I sort of thought it didn't seem important. Then I read this thread and realized... oh yes. We know her sex. We don't know her gender, and we won't until she does.

Until she began expressing preference in clothing (incidentally - anything pink, fuschia, or purple - the brighter the better it seems - plus occasional navy blue), we chose mostly gender neutral clothing for. However, I remember being surprised at the force which I felt compelling me to want to dress her in "Girly" things - the force with which I wanted to mark her as "girl" and bestow gender identity upon her. I remember being surprised at how quickly "girl" took root in my mind as I related to her. And I am not sure I even know what "girl" means. (I grew up in a household with an immigrant mother who carried her own culture's gender identity ideas with her... but which didn't necessarily track onto american ideas of gender. So I grew up with very hazy notions of what it means to be gendered... perhaps some conflicting messages. And in some ways, I think that's been quite helpful for me... to kind of have no idea sometimes. Clothes seem to be a big thing, who can wear what, so it always seemed very much that being a girl or boy was mostly a matter of acting.)

So then I think - wow, where did this wanted to dress her in cute pink things and dresses come from? My mom bought a set of cute blue newborn clothes for me. We didn't know what sex baby we were going to have, and my mom thought I would have a boy. I remember not really liking to put DD in the "baby boy blue" outfits. Navy blue was okay, for some reason I thought it looked cute... fashionable. But baby boy blue? I didn't like it. So there was this idea of gender that kept coming back to me. And more and more, as time has gone by, I became attached to the idea of her being "my daughter" and being "my baby girl." So much so that I can feel in me a place of mourning if she someday might be he. Or ze. But why? What would change? The essence of my child is always there.... How horrible to think someday that I could mourn her being herself, whoever that is.

So then again I think, whether dd grow up to be cisgendered, genderqueer, trans, or whatever.... isn't she better off without my pressure on her to be girl, or even 'girl in a certain way'? What if she doens't want to paint nails with me? What if he wants to paint nails with me? What if he doesn't? What if she does? It shouldn't matter to me, right? Yet, I feel the pull of wanting things a certain way. I can't seen going back - now - at age two and saying, let's not try to bestow a gender identity on you. To some extent that may be because she appears to be drawn to some of the signs of "girl" - but who knows if that will change? I have become attached to the gender I assumed her to have too now. See how I keep referring to "her"? So I can kind of see what Storm's parents might have been thinking. It's not so much because the child needs to be freed. But the parents have to train their minds so that they don't become attached to an idea in a way that could prove hurtful to their child.


----------



## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cyclamen*
> 
> In the article, I think the mom says they aren't running home for every diaper change - ie, they aren't really hiding anything. They just aren't discussing it.


I was referring to the poster who prefers that her male child be perceived as female so that he gets more candy and isn't told he can't cry.


----------



## cyclamen (Jul 10, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> I was referring to the poster who prefers that her male child be perceived as female so that he gets more candy and isn't told he can't cry.


Ah, I see.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> I was referring to the poster who prefers that her male child be perceived as female *so that he gets more candy* and isn't told he can't cry.


we do not prefer him to get candy

the "crying thing"- yea it is a big deal to us- we don't want him told not to because of his gender

kind of like how things use to be

remember girls were told to grow-up to be nurses so they could marry the doctor

girls do one thing boy another


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> I agree that there can be negative and positive treatment of boys (and girls!) based on gender. That is life. I don't think hiding one's race is the appropriate response to racism and I don't think hiding a child's sex is the appropriate response to sexism. I think it can have serious long term implications for that child's self esteem. But, I am bowing out of this conversation. To each their own.


I agree with this. If gender is just a societal construct, I don't see the point in choosing a different sex any more than I would choose a different race or hair color or whatever to avoid stereotypes. If sex is biology, you are what you are, and whatever gender traits are attributed to that sex are just societal pressures that no one need conform to... Just like no one needs to conform to racial stereotypes or the 'blondes have more fun" thing.


----------



## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> Saying that "boy" and "girl" correlate to genitalia is an outright denial of the legitimacy of trans people everywhere. If I were to identify as a man tomorrow, I would ask you to respect that and use the pronouns that I prefer, just as many people in my community do when they come out as trans or genderqueer. I know it's not what you're intending to do , but your statement is based on your ability to Ignore the reality of the trans community, and the fact that this attitude is so prevalent is ultimately responsible for a lot of hurt and damage.


I am acquainted with a queer couple....one of the couple is my coworker. They are both female, but one of them is started the process of transitioning to male. So...what's the point of going through all that? Hormones, counseling/therapy, eventually surgery....? Why don't such people just say they are boys and be done with it, if genitalia has nothing to do with it?


----------



## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> I am acquainted with a queer couple....one of the couple is my coworker. They are both female, but one of them is started the process of transitioning to male. So...what's the point of going through all that? Hormones, counseling/therapy, eventually surgery....? Why don't such people just say they are boys and be done with it, if genitalia has nothing to do with it?


well... why don't you ask your coworker and see what he says? that's a very provocative comment, and doubtless you are aware that you are displaying both ignorance and a confrontational attitude. it makes me wonder why you are so concerned.


----------



## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> well... why don't you ask your coworker and see what he says? that's a very provocative comment, and doubtless you are aware that you are displaying both ignorance and a confrontational attitude. it makes me wonder why you are so concerned.


I think you are looking for ways to be offended. A chip on the shoulder doesn't help anyone understand anything. Since you don't have an answer to my question, it seems unnecessary for you to respond except to be snarky.

ETA: Yup, I'm ignorant of the whys and wherefores. That's why I ask questions. Thanks for being so nice about it, though.


----------



## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> as I did post - try having a two year old and a stranger thinks he is a *she* and IT is crying over something stupid and you are in public and the comment is made "that's OK honey"
> 
> ...


I actually thinks this cuts both way. I have seen boys running wild, throwing things, rough-housing with each other and seen the parents shrug it off as "boys will boys." When their girls behave in the same way, the girls are immediately told that they are being too wild, that the behavior is not appropriate, etc. There is a lot of pressure on boys to be "tough," but there is also a lot of pressure on girls to act "like little ladies" and be "nice." I do think it's easier for girls to buck gender norms than it is for boys (being a "tomboy" is socially acceptable; being a "sissy" is not). On the other hand, I think that princess culture can be extremely damaging to girls--the message is that you have to look pretty (which often translates as looking adult--make-up, heels, etc.) in order to find your prince. Finding the prince is the pinnacle of your existence as a girl; marriage to a man is your greatest achievement and the point at which your story ends. Also, I think there is much more sensitivity to problematic gendered messages than there is to problematic heteronormative messages.

So I don't think that either boys or girls, in general, have it easier or harder. Cultural norms vary tremendously even within the US (and within families) and individual children vary in where they fall on the gender spectrum and how they feel about those messages.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

IMO,
I'd rather my kid to learn what society says to a "girl" or a "boy" and know that adults are not always right and often make super inapprorpiate assumptions.

"Oh, Boys dont cry."
"Please dont teach my son that. He is upset, and he can cry if he wants to. Its not your decision."

I just feel like there is no way I can limit their exposure to everything i disagree with, I just need to teach them how to deal with our screwed up society rather than placing limitations around it. Its my job to parent, not to limit. I agree with the idea that people cant hide race as well. I think it goes back to my "raising a proud girl" view. In today's society women still suffer from a great amount of oppression and rather than hide that my DD is sexed female, Id rather flaunt it and show how strong and smart she is. Sometimes DD wears boy clothes and sometimes she wears girl clothes. Ive never corrected anyone who has assumed she was a boy (no hair







) and I dont intend to. Its also been my experience that I can cover the girl in pink from head to toe and people will still say, "oh what a little fella!" because I think people around here want babies to be boys.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Actually that's not true. Domestic violence against men is very common, it's just that there are no advocacy groups to collect data on it. For instance, if a woman shows up at the emergency room with signs of being abused , usually(hopefully) she is refered to a domestic violence shelter. These organizations keep statistics on female abuse victims. There are very few organizations who advocate for male abuse victims, and therefore no one is collecting data. *Of course women are probably less capable of inflicting severe injuries on men, and less likely to actually kill them. I think they are also less likely to stalk their exes. The abuse women suffer is probably much more severe and potentially deadly.* But make no mistake about it, there are men, many more than one would think, who suffer in abusive relationships. This is in way meant to minimize DV against women, I just think it's important that our sons know that no woman has the right to hit them, throw things at them, or emotionally abuse them.


And this is probably one of the (GOOD) reasons there are more advocacy groups for women. It's also highly socially unacceptable for women to abuse their husbands (or boyfriends) as its far more likely that a man will custody of children of the relationship if he alleges abuse, but if a woman alleges abuse (and can prove it!) she is usually forced to send her children on visitation, and is told that she must be lying - b/c we live in a patriarchal society that holds men up and lets them do everything they want.

Also, the bolded contradicts the (don't remember if it was you who said it) earlier statement that cited men being 90% of murder victims as a reason that men are abused more often. Men are usually killed by OTHER MEN - not their abusive women partners. And, men who ARE killed by women partners are usually the abusers themselves. Of women who suffered from battered woman syndrome and killed their husband, and then went to jail for it, the ones who have been pardoned for that crime and released have a ZERO percent recidivism rate - 0%. No other formerly incarcerated demographic has that low of a recidivism rate.

Men are abused FAR less often than women. Women are abused FAR MORE often than is known. I know so many women who have been abused/are being abused that its not even funny. It doesn't happen to men on the same level, b/c it is socially acceptable for men to abuse women.

I'm not saying that I'm going to raise my son to be a doormat and get beat up - I would never do that. However, he will be expected to show respect to ALL other people, and if he ever starts acting the way his father did towards me, he's going to get an earful.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> So...what's the point of going through all that? Hormones, counseling/therapy, eventually surgery....?


I'll take a stab here (no expert) but from what I do know---to feel good about themselves

kind of like "normal" people-

they take hormones to keep younger and that is view as OK by society

the go to counseling/therapy to deal with their issue-it's not all about talking about gender, trans-etc people have "family baggage" just like other's do-also it is required my many Drs. prior to surgery------to know the person really wants this

surgery so they can look in the mirror and see who they want to see--just like having your nose done------for you, to see yourself as you want

why do "normal" women with no gender issues want a tummy tuck after their baby? breast enlargement vagina rejuvenation, etc


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> I am acquainted with a queer couple....one of the couple is my coworker. They are both female, but one of them is started the process of transitioning to male. So...what's the point of going through all that? Hormones, counseling/therapy, eventually surgery....? Why don't such people just say they are boys and be done with it, if genitalia has nothing to do with it?


If you're actually interested in the answer to that question, here's the following quote from a female-to-male (FTM) trans writer from Seattle in an article about Trans 101:

Quote:


> None of what I say here is to minimize the necessity of surgery. Many trans people do experience body dysphoria. Many of us do seek hormones, surgery, and other body modifications. But the point is that, while such modifications may be necessary for our peace of mind, they are not necessary to make us "real men" or "real women" or "real" whatevers. We're plenty real right now, thank you.


Body modifications are done to feel "right". Whatever that means to the individual, but they do not define someone's gender in themselves.

And some information on not being transphobic or homophobic or cissexist, etc :::

Quote:


> If you want to be a good ally, you need to start taking cissexism and transphobia seriously right now. That means getting our g*dd*mn pronouns right and not expecting a cookie for it. That means learning our names. That means not asking invasive questions or telling us how well we "pass." (Passing generally means "looking cis." Not all of us want to look like you, thank you very much.) That means deleting the words "tranny" and "shemale" from your vocabulary. That means understanding the immense privilege you have in your legally recognized, socially approved, medically assigned gender.
> 
> That means realizing that this is just the beginning. and that you have a lot to learn. That means realizing that it would be intrusive and importunate to ask the nearest trans person to explain it all to you, as if they didn't have better things to do. That means hitting the internet and doing all that you can to educate yourself. And once you've done all that, maybe you can call yourself an ally, that is, if you're still genuinely willing to join us in the hard work of making the world a less sh***y place to be trans.


----------



## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> IMO,
> I'd rather my kid to learn what society says to a "girl" or a "boy" and know that adults are not always right and often make super inapprorpiate assumptions.
> ...


Someone once tried to tell me that all babies "just look more like males". This blew me away. I was wondering what this person thought "males" look like... babies don't have the archetypal "man" stuff like hairy bodies, bigger feet, etc... And they're curvy, which is generally thought of as a "female" thing. It's just that male is the standard "human", so we see a lot through the lens of maleness, and we see women through the lens of other-ness.

About the "proud girl" point of view: I definitely agree that women should be proud to be women, particularly in a society so wrought with patriarchy. But I think it's important to make clear to a child that no matter what gender they are assigned, it's okay to choose whatever identity they want as they grow and develop. Otherwise, if they don't measure-up as a strongly-identifying "woman" (perhaps she'll one day be genderqueer or FTM), they know that it's not because of a failure on their part. It would be important to know that no one dear to them would be insulted by their change in identity, and that they would be loved unconditionally. Being FTM doesn't mean not being a feminist and it doesn't mean patriarchy. It is a really huge (and brave) transcendence of gender stereotypes and what it means to be born in a body in our society.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> If you're actually interested in the answer to that question, here's the following quote from a female-to-male (FTM) trans writer from Seattle in an article about Trans 101:
> 
> ...


this is awesome. thanks for sharing it.

i have gotten my snark up about this thread and the comments on the billion blogs in which the article is being discussed. it's hard not to feel personally attacked about all of it since this is what my own family has chosen as well. *i do apologize* and i think i just have to make.myself.stay.away. from this thread.... i don't know why this particular issue pushes my buttons so hard. it's not like i'm not used to seeing other choices/parenting issues knocked about everywhere. goodness. maybe the folks criticising the parents in the article will think about how disheartening it is to see something dear trashed like that (extended breastfeeding.. non vaxxing.. unschooling/homeschooling.. etc. ) none of us is exactly mainstream or we wouldn't be here.


----------



## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> this is awesome. thanks for sharing it.
> 
> i have gotten my snark up about this thread and the comments on the billion blogs in which the article is being discussed. it's hard not to feel personally attacked about all of it *since this is what my own family has chosen as well. i do apologize* and i think i just have to make.myself.stay.away. from this thread.... i don't know why this particular issue pushes my buttons so hard. it's not like i'm not used to seeing other choices/parenting issues knocked about everywhere. goodness. maybe the folks criticising the parents in the article will think about how disheartening it is to see something dear trashed like that (extended breastfeeding.. non vaxxing.. unschooling/homeschooling.. etc. ) none of us is exactly mainstream or we wouldn't be here.


I'd be interested to hear how it's working for you. I am absolutely NOT trashing you by asking you this question, please please understand that. I think sometimes in these forums when the only thing we see is the written words, and not the tone of voice or the warmth in someone's eyes, it's easy to take offense where none was meant. So..you have refused to disclose your baby's sex to the world in general? I can see your baby is not that old, but older than Storm, so I am genuinely wondering how that has worked out? I mean, did people eventually stop asking? How do people who see your baby regularly relate to him/her? (Again, not meaning any offense with the pronouns, I just don't know any other ones!). Have you seen any attitude changes in these people (neighbours, shopkeepers, etc)? Do you feel their own beliefs have been challenged, and if so, do you think they've grown as a result of it? How about the way you and your partner relate to you child? Have you had any latent gender beliefs crop up that you, yourself, have had to deal with? Obviously, your LO is still a little young to ask his/her opinion and gauge his/her feelings on the matter, but I'd love to know how a child is affected by others not knowing their sex. Do they feel liberated? Do they feel they have more gender freedom? Conversely, do they feel targeted?

Also, I have to say, before yesterday I'd never heard of anyone not disclosing the sex of their baby, and now I've heard of two families doing it. I wonder how many more there is? I'm of the belief that attitudes change little by little, over generations. If enough people are challenging gender identity now, the future looks much more tolerant.


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## childsplay (Sep 4, 2007)

I read it, then read it again. My opinion? Rather than just enjoy their beautiful baby and raise him/her in the open (fantastic) way they're raising their older boys, they seem to be using her/him as a social experiment, something to gain attention and support their own beliefs and issues.

Sounds harsh I know, but that's just the feeling I got from the article.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Annie Mac*
> 
> I'd be interested to hear how it's working for you. I am absolutely NOT trashing you by asking you this question, please please understand that. I think sometimes in these forums when the only thing we see is the written words, and not the tone of voice or the warmth in someone's eyes, it's easy to take offense where none was meant. So..you have refused to disclose your baby's sex to the world in general? I can see your baby is not that old, but older than Storm, so I am genuinely wondering how that has worked out? I mean, did people eventually stop asking? How do people who see your baby regularly relate to him/her? (Again, not meaning any offense with the pronouns, I just don't know any other ones!). Have you seen any attitude changes in these people (neighbours, shopkeepers, etc)? Do you feel their own beliefs have been challenged, and if so, do you think they've grown as a result of it? How about the way you and your partner relate to you child? Have you had any latent gender beliefs crop up that you, yourself, have had to deal with? Obviously, your LO is still a little young to ask his/her opinion and gauge his/her feelings on the matter, but I'd love to know how a child is affected by others not knowing their sex. Do they feel liberated? Do they feel they have more gender freedom? Conversely, do they feel targeted?
> 
> Also, I have to say, before yesterday I'd never heard of anyone not disclosing the sex of their baby, and now I've heard of two families doing it. I wonder how many more there is? I'm of the belief that attitudes change little by little, over generations. If enough people are challenging gender identity now, the future looks much more tolerant.


(this is the_longest_post_ever... please don't feel compelled to muddle through)

we're a little less firm than the article parents. selectively. most of the time when i'm feeling tired if people ask i will say this is child'sname. we chose to name dd after my grandmother, so people then are happy to think 'girl.' if we don't have that conversation, it's amazing that people totally assume 'boy.' because i think people have come to see boy as the child in colors other than pink. it also shocked me when someone asked if we cut 'his hair that way' because dd is a bald egg.

the kids dd interacts with don't care. they don't ask, which is also pretty interesting. the uproar, so far, about making other kids confused or whatever just doesn't happen, at least at this age.

people DO make different comments, they use different voices and language and adjectives depending on whether they think dd is boy or girl. that for us is why, mainly, we want to raise her neutrally. and i say her and dd etc. because though we do have queer/a wide range of friends, i'm still feeling my way through the language which is difficult. it totally gets my hackles up when people feel compelled to call dd 'pretty' b/c that's what one is expected to say to a girl child. awful.

dh:

this is what he wrote to his family and friends (and not necessarily what i believe. he also refers to her as comrade child'sname if that helps)

Girl. Boy. Little girl. Big boy. Pretty girl. Strong boy. When people constantly refer to my child by gender I get annoyed. Not because I hate women, but because I don't think that pervasive reinforcement of gender through terminology is conducive to creating a well-formed person able to function to the greatest of their potential. I hate what our society deems a "girl" to be. Calling my daughter a girl, or praising her as a "good girl" etc., causes her to associate closely with this term she is hearing applied to herself consistently, a term with societal behavioral implications and expectations that force her into constraints and, potentially, internal conflicts. Thats just great if you like what society has to say about women, but I don't.

My daughter is a human, a person, an individual. In order to develop to her utmost she needs to be able to understand herself as such. It is not productive for her to be forced into a mold. Her genitalia do not define her, they do not prescribe her path through life, they do not make her brain or nature drastically different from her male counterparts. What does in fact do all those things is the societal pressures and interpretations of the terms she comes to identify with. These terms she constantly hears will begin to take root in her quickly verbalizing mind and for the rest of her life her interactions with our corrupt society will do irreparable damage that has no productive purpose for the individual. I want to avoid that.

Society, which unfortunately she can't avoid, will tell her to shop and primp and that she is not good at math. Is that good for her? Is it good to raise males who feel they must be tough, stoic, and ultra-competitive? Who benefits from these social molds? The way people develop in our society has nearly nothing to do with human nature and everything to do with marketing, domination, and exploitation. We are all screwed up by this, just as we are all screwed up by the domination of illegitimate authority, the repression pushed by religion, and the inability to control our own productivity. If you disagree, fine. I'm not telling you how to raise your own children. I'm telling you how you are allowed to interact with mine. I'm telling you that I intend to minimize the damage caused by this rot we live in. If you must use gendered words when interacting with my child than use terms such as "young woman". Stop calling her little girl. Likewise, I should probably stop calling her "crazy". She is a "stinky punk," though.

myself:

i was raised in an environment with strict rules about the performance of my femininity. my father had let me shadow him as he built things and took engines apart, much to my fascination, and despite my mother's exasperated attempts to dress me up (and put me in beauty pagents oh my god). when i got to be a certain age, though, that was the end of that. i was told 'ladies don't XYZ. i was also sent to a religious school that instructed me that women should defer to thier husbands and wear 'that which is fitting to a woman' (or however that goes). i knew the whole time that i was not this or that. something in between. i have had a long term relationship with a person who identifies as a female lesbian but am now married to a man, one who considers himself to be pretty 'masculine' according to the culturally defined definitions.

i was confused so much as a child, not about who i was necessarily, but about why it was important that i be in one particular category or another and that certain things were off limits because of something so random.

so that's why i want to do this as a parent, for my child. i don't want her to think that anything she wants to do/be/try is out and that i want her-- and, yes, other people too-- to realize that genetalia doesn't really have much to do with interests, skills, and the concept of self. for me, it takes the confusion AWAY rather than giving any kind of suggestions. kind of like giving her a rainbow basket of markers and some blank paper rather than a coloring book.


----------



## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> And this is probably one of the (GOOD) reasons there are more advocacy groups for women. It's also highly socially unacceptable for women to abuse their husbands (or boyfriends) as its far more likely that a man will custody of children of the relationship if he alleges abuse, but if a woman alleges abuse (and can prove it!) she is usually forced to send her children on visitation, and is told that she must be lying - b/c we live in a patriarchal society tat holds men up and lets them do everything they want.
> 
> ...


Like I said before, saying that there are men in abusive relationships in no way is minimizing abuse against women. I never said that we need less help for women of domestic violence. I just think we need to, as a society, recognize the fact that there are men out there who are being victimized. And I never said that men were killed by women, I just said that men are the victims of murder 90% of the time. I can tell you that I was SHOCKED when I found out that there are men who are abused. I always thought that women were non violent, sweet and loving. Of course many women are. All I'm saying is that our society doesn't believe that there are male victims out there. We just assume that men are always the perpetrators and never the victims. Why do we make that assumption? Because we are sexist and believe that women are sugar and spice and all things nice? Because we think that men who can't get out of abusive relationships are wimps?
Also, remember that these men I'm talking about are NOT abusers. They are most likely very gentle men who are embarrassed to get help. Also remember that 50 years ago we didn't believe that women were victims of DV either.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/01/30/a-hidden-crime-domestic-violence-against-men-is-a-growing-probl/


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Thanks Hildare, for taking the time to elucidate your own family's foray into, well, whatever you'd call it, challenging gender lines, I guess. I agree with you and your husband on many points, and I think it's brave of you to take it a step further and put it out there to your families and community that this is something that's important to you (and everyone, really). I also think it's super cute that your husband calls your LO comrade


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> I think you are looking for ways to be offended. A chip on the shoulder doesn't help anyone understand anything. Since you don't have an answer to my question, it seems unnecessary for you to respond except to be snarky.
> 
> ETA: Yup, I'm ignorant of the whys and wherefores. That's why I ask questions. Thanks for being so nice about it, though.


Also, 2xy, I do understand that maybe you're making an effort to learn, so it's not that you're not allowed to ask questions out of genuine curiosity. But I think it's important to realize that it's easy for people to get offended when certain questions are asked, and especially when it seems you're trying to challenge trans peoples' identities and autonomy over their own bodies. Negative/under-exposed/indignant attitudes about trans people are rampant and harmful. Practicing sensitivity when asking questions is really important. So is being careful not to ask questions in a way that makes it seem as though people are wrong about their own marginalized, gender-transcendent identities.

Asking "what's the point" of a transitioning surgery can feel like you're insinuating that you feel there is no point, and that's a challenge to the reality of a trans-identity. It can make someone feel like you think you know better than they do about the choices that they're making about their bodies and their identities. The idea that a person's choice to transition surgically is not legitimate is oppressive and scary. There is a lot of violence surrounding cis-persons' perspectives on transitions. People can be, understandably, sensitive bout it.

I have many trans people in my family and community, and many of them have sadly suffered at length for the closed-mindedness of others. I also have a radically gender-deviant identity. So, I ask that people are open-minded and compassionate when they ask questions that they expect others to answer according to their experience.

I caution people to understand that this conversation is not hypothetical jibber-jabber. It's not about hype or "extremes". It applies, on a very intimate level, to my life and the lives of others on this thread. It applies to families. Please be kind and respectful.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scottishmommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I know that there are abused men out there. There are also lesbians in abusive relationships, and men in heterosexual abusive relationships, and men in homosexual relationships that are abused. There are ALL kinds of abuse - that most of society doesn't believe exists. Economic abuse - ever heard of that? Emotional and psychological abuse - often is chalked up to the woman being "crazy", having PPD, having severe emotional problems, and many times isn't considered "abuse" that is bad enough to warrant a DV organization giving her shelter or legal assistance. Society CONDONES men abusing women - I've been there, and I know that. When I was in an abusive relationship, and getting out of it, my friends (well, I thought they were my friends) were telling me that "Well, I'm not going to choose sides, I don't want to lose him as a friend". Well, sorry that they want to be friends with someone who dragged me across the floor by my ankles, but I'm not interested in being friends with people like that.


----------



## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> If you're actually interested in the answer to that question, here's the following quote from a female-to-male (FTM) trans writer from Seattle in an article about Trans 101:


Apologies to Asher, who mentions that he doesn't actually identify as FTM any longer. He feels it isn't an accurate representation of his journey through transition. My mistake.









PS - his whole blog is awesome.


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## lovelylisa (Jan 23, 2009)

First off, I would like to apologize if my post is rambling because I have SO many things I want to say 

Well I was thouroughly annoyed when I first read this article and thought that the parents were crazy. Then I read (all 5 pages) of posts and people really made some interesting points that made me think about it a little more.

For me, gender used to be a very cut and dry thing. I used to believe that gender was what it was and there were no shades of gray about it. I've learned through the years that for some people, however, there are. Just because I identify as female and don't mind having the door held open for me doesn't mean that other people who have similar genitals as me feel the same way. (Or conversely, people with dissimilar genitals might identify as female and like having the door held open for them as well) Of course I don't mean that I am incapable of doing things for myself. I should be able to choose my own path, regardless of how I was born.

A pp mentioned that "hiding" your race isn't a good way to combat racisim. I wholeheartedly agree.

My husband and I used to live in a town that is very racist. I still work there. When my husband and I would go out together, people always assumed we weren't together because I am black and he is white. It annoyed the crap out of us. We could go to the grocery store, discussing what we were going to cook for dinner that night, and we would consistently be asked if we were together.

Now, when people(really only people in the city where I work) see a picture of my son, they look at him and look at me confused. Sometimes they just look at him and don't say anything. Other people feel the need to point out "Oh, is he mixed?" Ugh, no, he's biracial, not a can of paint. Some would say things under their breath that I care not to repeat. Others simply mention that he is beautiful. For a while I took my pictures of him down because I hated feeling like people would judge my sweet little boy without getting to know him. Then I realized that people some people suck and they always will judge, really not my problem. I put my pictures back up, and then some. He really is a good lookin baby 

Another friend of mine has a biracial son and feels the need to tell everyone that she will raise him to be a strong, black man. I don't understand why she feels the need to raise him a "insert color here" anything. Why not raise him to be a good person? Why not appreciate all of his ethnicities? There are people who aren;t going to accept him no matter what.

So, on many levels, I certainly understand why these parents go through the steps they do to keep their child gender neutral to others. On the other hand... there ARE differences between men and women. The only difference between races is the color of their skin. And just because something is different, doesn't mean it's bad. So while I appreciate that they want to raise their child as a good person and don't want other people pushing their beliefs on them... I don't think gender is something one can ignore. Choosing not to raise children as one gender or another doesn't make the world any easier for them in the end.


----------



## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovelylisa*
> 
> So, on many levels, I certainly understand why these parents go through the steps they do to keep their child gender neutral to others. On the other hand... *there ARE differences between men and women.* The only difference between races is the color of their skin. And just because something is different, doesn't mean it's bad. So while I appreciate that they want to raise their child as a good person and don't want other people pushing their beliefs on them... I don't think gender is something one can ignore. Choosing not to raise children as one gender or another doesn't make the world any easier for them in the end.


There are differences between people. But that is because they are people. Not necessarily because they identify as men or women (or both or neither). Some people are intersexed and some people are trans. The themes that you see in the differences between men and women are largely conditioned, just as the themes that you see in the differences between people of different priveleges, races and social classes are largely conditioned and created by society. They are not inherent. They are trained.


----------



## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> i have gotten my snark up about this thread and the comments on the billion blogs in which the article is being discussed. it's hard not to feel personally attacked about all of it since this is what my own family has chosen as well. *i do apologize* and i think i just have to make.myself.stay.away. from this thread.... i don't know why this particular issue pushes my buttons so hard. it's not like i'm not used to seeing other choices/parenting issues knocked about everywhere. goodness. maybe the folks criticising the parents in the article will think about how disheartening it is to see something dear trashed like that (extended breastfeeding.. non vaxxing.. unschooling/homeschooling.. etc. ) none of us is exactly mainstream or we wouldn't be here.


Yabbut....disagreement is not the same thing as persecution. I have friends who disagree with my views on religion and also with my views on school. That doesn't mean they trash me or try to tell me I can't or shouldn't do things the way I do. They simply disagree.

If you want to raise gender-neutral children, go for it. I'm not telling you not to. I don't have that right. But I do have the right to think poorly of the idea if I want to, and to talk about it on a discussion forum. Seeing as you hold the position you do, you probably disagree with my decision to raise my children as boys. Should that bother me? Should I feel personally attacked?

At least, thus far, nobody has tried to legislate the gender of your child.


----------



## lovelylisa (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> There are differences between people. But that is because they are people. Not necessarily because they identify as men or women (or both or neither). Some people are intersexed and some people are trans. The themes that you see in the differences between men and women are largely conditioned, just as the themes that you see in the differences between people of different privileges, races and social classes are largely conditioned and created by society. They are not inherent. They are trained.


I absolutely agree with you. I don't mean the social themes. I mean that there's penises and vaginas  And vaginas work differently than penises.


----------



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> There are differences between people. But that is because they are people. Not necessarily because they identify as men or women (or both or neither). Some people are intersexed and some people are trans. The themes that you see in the differences between men and women are largely conditioned, just as the themes that you see in the differences between people of different priveleges, races and social classes are largely conditioned and created by society. They are not inherent. They are trained.


Men & women (sex) ARE different though. There are specific, measurable differences in not just outward appearance (i.e. genitals) but also chromosomes, hormones, reproduction, muscle mass, height, etc. Some of these will have no effect beyond what's visible but others do have effects that are NOT results of social conditioning.


----------



## les_oiseau (Apr 9, 2010)

I agree that treatment based on steroetypes can be harmful, a waste of time, wrong, ect. But I don't think the healthy answer is to completely avoid it. I think if they are doing it solely to keep their child from treatment based on his/her gender they are going to give the child a false sense of reality that IMO will only be harmful. People aren't perfect. As a community of people we all have to try to relate to one another the best and only ways we know how. Some people get it horribly wrong. So we are going to conceal things about ourselves to protect ourselves from that? other people's misinterpretations of reality?


----------



## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Men & women (sex) ARE different though. There are specific, measurable differences in not just outward appearance (i.e. genitals) but also chromosomes, hormones, reproduction, muscle mass, height, etc. Some of these will have no effect beyond what's visible but others do have effects that are NOT results of social conditioning.


I've already explained that I know men with vulvas and women with penises. I know that each and every body is different, and that sometimes a penis correlates with more body mass and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes a person with a vulva is shorter than a person with a penis, and sometimes not. Some people with penises also have vulvas. Some people have a clitoris that is the size of some penises and that can work like a penis. Some very tall people have a penis so small that it works like my clit. Some people have breasts and a penis. Many hairy penis-owning people can lactate. And that's all just to speak of the bodies that we are born with. And beyond that - Yes, reproduction is dependent on a uterus, but I know many men who have those, too.

So, I'm not sure what you mean. Honestly, I think you're working under the illusion of a binary that doesn't exist. You don't always know what's under peoples' clothes, or in their past.


----------



## lovelylisa (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


That's a better way of saying what I wanted to say. No matter how neutral you raise your child, come puberty, you're having a specific conversation with them.


----------



## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


ok.. for the sake of argument... what is it, chemically, then, that makes a man? my father in law considers himself very much to be a man. he had to take hormone therapy for a tumor that drastically decreased the testosterone level of his body. is he, then, not a man? still a man? how about when he took steroids for said condition and his breasts got bigger? still a man?

how about a woman who is childless by choice? if she doesn't reproduce, is she a woman? what about if she has a hysterectomy? what about if SHE takes male hormones?

i am taller than my cousin. he says he's a man. my shoes are bigger. i say i'm a woman. are both these things true?

these are some of the tangles that come from narrow definitions. there are no correct answers.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I'm not sure how to answer that without getting much further into biology than I have time to do right now.







DS is crying...


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Sex is a spectrum. So is gender. Many people are intersexed. There is no biological evidence to uphold an absolute male/female binary, and certainly no biological evidence to uphold an absolute man/woman binary. There will always be people in the middle of the spectrum.


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## lovelylisa (Jan 23, 2009)

But people can be born male or female or intersex, correct? What's wrong with calling a male a male? Or a female a female if that's how they were born?

If the person wishes to be called something else, then that would be because of social factors.

I can understand not wanting your child to be treated differently because of their gender, but you can't really avoid their sex, can you? That is still their body and how they were born.

And no matter where you fall on the spectrum of man-woman, that will ultimately effect who you are and how you see the world.

This is why I am not sure why raising a child gender neutral would be of any benefit. A person can shape their identity regardless of their body but they can't avoid how their body works.

ETA.. I would not call someone anything they did not want to be called


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

I find that to be an exaggeration. Also, it doesn't apply to "Storm" or at least I haven't read anything to indicate that.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> Many people are intersexed.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> I find that to be an exaggeration. Also, it doesn't apply to "Storm" or at least I haven't read anything to indicate that.


http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Well I've calmed DS down but I'm still not sure how to answer without inadvertently offending someone.


----------



## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency












Quote:


> *How common is intersex?*
> 
> To answer this question in an uncontroversial way, you'd have to first get everyone to agree on what counts as intersex -and also to agree on what should count as strictly male or strictly female. That's hard to do. How small does a penis have to be before it counts as intersex? Do you count "sex chromosome" anomalies as intersex if there's no apparent external sexual ambiguity?1 (Alice Dreger explores this question in greater depth in her book Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex.)
> 
> Here's what we do know: If you ask experts at medical centers how often a child is born so noticeably atypical in terms of genitalia that a specialist in sex differentiation is called in, the number comes out to about 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 births. But a lot more people than that are born with subtler forms of sex anatomy variations, *some of which won't show up until later in life.*


So, that addresses whether conversations about intersex and sex-variance may be relevant to us, concerning the lives of our children. I want to be sure that my child knows that I am not defining them by their genitalia or gender. Period. Maybe their genitalia would change, maybe their identities will. But I plan on avoiding dictating a direct correlation between genitalia and personhood. How individual parents do that is up to them, but there are many legitimate and loving ways to go about it.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Well I've calmed DS down but I'm still not sure how to answer without inadvertently offending someone.


Then perhaps there is no way of describing your definition of "man" and "woman" without being cissexist or transphobic, and therefore "inadvertently" oppressive?


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency


link won't open for me

I am not sure intrasexed applies to Storm and based on the articles I have read, I am not sure that this is the issue the parents are concerned about. My sense was it was more related to gender stereotypes and expectations rather than concerns about transgender issues.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Karenwith4*
> 
> link won't open for me
> 
> I am not sure intrasexed applies to Storm and based on the articles I have read, I am not sure that this is the issue the parents are concerned about. My sense was it was more related to gender stereotypes and expectations rather than concerns about transgender issues.


You're right, but our arguement is that in a world where gender and sex are both wildly variant spectrums, there is no way to define "boy" or "girl". The parents do not know the gender, as gender is only truly legitimate as a matter of self-identity and not as a matter of biology. And even if gender were directly correlated with sex, sex is a spectrum (hence, "intersex").

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency


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## AttunedMama (Jan 19, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovelylisa*
> 
> That's a better way of saying what I wanted to say. No matter how neutral you raise your child, come puberty, you're having a specific conversation with them.


Certainly not! My children are being consistently schooled in transawareness, gender deconstruction, etc. From their birth. Full stop.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Oy, I have muddled through the whole thread







. Some great stuff in there.

I just wanted to add the perspective of how my family has chosen to raise our kid. Both my DH and I abhor the gender stereotyping that clothing and toy choices place upon a child, so we have decided to do the best we can to be gender neutral in those arena. I've been reading hildare's posts with interest because we have made basically the same choices that she has. It will be interesting to see how the journeys of our children diverge though since her child is biologically xx and mine is xy.

I have to say that finding clothes for my kid became extremely difficult once he was out of layette sizes. So I learned how to batik, and now I decorate most of his clothes myself. I refuse to be constrained by gender themes though, so he has a truck shirt that is bright magenta, and lots of rainbow stuff. He loves purple so I made him a bunch of shirts, pants and a hoodie in that color (btw, when the heck did purple become a "girl" color??). He has stuff from both sides of the aisle; straw cups and bibs with cars and with flowers, play kitchen, dolls and toy trains. It actually makes my blood boil that I am expected to choose between two extremely gendered options for mundane things like sippy cups and toddler underwear. Or diaper covers for that matter. Bleurgh.

What I avoid are things that scream hyper-masculine or hyper-feminine because I do not find those appropriate for a young child. Everything else in the middle is fair game. My family thinks I am crazy (hello mom!). We also don't have TV so he is pretty sheltered at this point.

Like other posters my kid is referred to as both he and she. I'm cool with that. I will usually correct only because he is a he, but I want him to be older and more able to think about/analyze his choices before we open the doors of male gender typing wide and let him peek inside.

ETA: Here is an interesting article on gender neutral pronouns. I'm a big fan of Hu.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> Then perhaps there is no way of describing your definition of "man" and "woman" without being cissexist or transphobic, and therefore "inadvertently" oppressive?


No, it's more that I feel you'll find ANYTHING I say offensive, just because my views are different than yours.

I'm phobic of heights and enclosed spaces... not people. And I don't believe any group of people is inherently superior or inferior to any other.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Honestly, the parents in the article seem self-centered with an over-inflated sense of self-importance, displaying attention-seeking behavior (let's keep the whole world guessing the sex of our child, won't that be fun! Maybe someone will even write an article about us!). Passerby don't care about the deep-seated gender of the child, just whether it was born physically a boy or girl. It's basic human curiosity. I know people feel judged for their opinions in this thread, but what about the judgement displayed by the parents in the article? They don't trust their own parents with this information? They believe that the child's grandparents will treat the child differently because of gender/sex? Is the lady sitting next to them on the bus going to treat the baby differently if they tell her if it's a boy or girl? Is she going to crush Storm's identity during the 5 minute ride? Really? That's some pretty harsh judgement right there.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ramama*
> 
> Honestly, the parents in the article seem self-centered with an over-inflated sense of self-importance, displaying attention-seeking behavior (let's keep the whole world guessing the sex of our child, won't that be fun! Maybe someone will even write an article about us!). Passerby don't care about the deep-seated gender of the child, just whether it was born physically a boy or girl. It's basic human curiosity. I know people feel judged for their opinions in this thread, but what about the judgement displayed by the parents in the article? They don't trust their own parents with this information? They believe that the child's grandparents will treat the child differently because of gender/sex? Is the lady sitting next to them on the bus going to treat the baby differently if they tell her if it's a boy or girl? Is she going to crush Storm's identity during the 5 minute ride? Really? That's some pretty harsh judgement right there.


One would assume they know their parents. I know that when we refused to find out the sex of our child before birth it almost created WWIII in my family. My mother was very fond of letting me know that she WOULD be buying the baby pink frilly princess stuff if he were a girl because that is a girl's birthright. In fact she had already stocked up before he was born and was very peeved when he was born with a penis (not that I would have let my child wear that stuff even without a penis). I held on to the sparkle jeans she gave us though because those where awesome in a glam way. Unfortuantely they never fit over his cloth diaper







.

But anyway, to respond directly to your post, I think there have been many posters in this thread who are saying that YES children do get treated differently based on their perceived gender. So do adults for that matter. Were you never limited in what you were supposed to do, say, think, look like, aspire to, because you are female? I sure as heck was...hoo boy!


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> No, it's more that I feel you'll find ANYTHING I say offensive, just because my views are different than yours.
> 
> I'm phobic of heights and enclosed spaces... not people. And I don't believe any group of people is inherently superior or inferior to any other.


I'm not offended by viewpoints that are different than mine, so long as they respectfully acknowledge the legitimacy of the identities of other people.

*cissexism* - the belief that transsexuals' identified genders are inferior to, or less authentic than, those of _cissexuals_.

When you say that there is a stark male/female, girl/boy, man/woman binary, that is a denial of the people who identify outside of those labels.


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## Snapdragon (Aug 30, 2007)

However, just because there are plenty of people who have different stances on gender issues, and prefer not to be labeled male or female or what have you, that doesn't make those of us who don't have those feelings closed minded or ignorant !I am a hetero female married to a hetero male and we have a son who is a boy. I don't dress him in pink and I probably will not grow his hair long when he is a toddler. That doesn't make me closed minded or prejudiced against people who do feel transgendered or genderless or anything on that spectrum. That is just my natural inclination. I don't NOT dress him in pink, lol, it is just not something I tend to choose for him. It makes me uncomfortable in some way that the parents in the original article are choosing not to claim a gender for their baby. But at the same time, I guess if that is an issue in their lives it is their right to do so, just as much as it is a parents right to raise their child with values that are important to them. I just feel that there is some feeling that people who are "politically correct" or open minded are supposed to always be 100% behind this genderlessness thing- and for me, I am 100% fine with however people feel they need to identify themselves in this respect. I just don't feel that it is wrong if I choose to go with asigning my own son a gender role of male! I guess I am reading a lot of posts in this thread were people are discussing the ways in which they don't force a gender on their kids. And that is fine. But I don't think that is the only right way to raise a child! I probably didn't express that as clearly as I want to- I just kind of wanted to address the aspect, both in this gender issue and in lots of AP parenting or any politically correct type of issue where there is sometimes controversy and discussion, that people who choose to go with the traditional male female names and such are not more closed minded or ignorant than people who don't- that is probably stating the obvious. But I think ultimately my point is that I don't personally see why it is wrong for the parents in the article to call their baby a boy or girl, and I don't find it noble or heroic that they choose not to. I just see it as their own personal agenda- not in a bad way, but just clearly something that is important to them.


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## HeliMom (Jan 14, 2010)

Crunchy_mommy I don't identify as cisgendered, I guess I'd be genderqueer if someone needed to label me. The best I can explain intersex is by looking at colors on a spectrum say red and orange for instance. For easy discussion we can all say we know what is red and what is orange. However in reality there are several shades of each which are actually a mix of red and orange. Some shades are obviously a mixture of both but some shades are more subtle. The kind of red you'd call red if it was paired with yellow, but when next to the pure pigment of red it looks way more orange ( "red" "with" and "red it" were all typed with the same font color). So while there may be male and female as far as sex is concerned, sure there are differences between men and women, but they are subjective and actually represent a spectrum. Even if at first glance you think you can identify someone firmly either/or you may have re evaluate in a different setting.

I hope that made sense.


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## lovelylisa (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AttunedMama*
> 
> Certainly not! My children are being consistently schooled in transawareness, gender deconstruction, etc. From their birth. Full stop.


Forgive me because I don't understand what you mean. And I'm not sure I explained what I meant. I mean that if your child is a female and that's something she will experience, you're explaining what a period is. I don't mean that's the only thing you're going to teach them. I don't understand why you wouldn't .


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## lovelylisa (Jan 23, 2009)

I found this interesting given the current discussion.

http://www.isna.org/faq/gender_assignment

ETA.. this too.

http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex


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## FAmom (Oct 28, 2010)

*So while there may be male and female as far as sex is concerned, sure there are differences between men and women, but they are subjective and actually represent a spectrum. Even if at first glance you think you can identify someone firmly either/or you may have re evaluate in a different setting.*

For me, here is the question though, relative to some of the comments previous to yours. Your username is "HeliMom". My assumption is that is some combo of something that has meaning to you, and that you are likely a "Mom"...... implying that you are female. And, that if in conversation there was the need to use a pronoun, the basic construct of English is that "she" would be used, right?

Would it offend you for me to make those assumptions, based on the first standard cues a person gets, and use what you might consider to be the wrong pronouns?

I guess as I have read this thread, I just don't necessarily get what a person is really supposed to do given the constraints of the basic English language.

To me, and maybe this is just very backward of me, it would seem more odd of me to say hello, introduce myself, learn what your name was, then ask you what gender identifying, or non identifying, pronouns you'd like me to use within our conversation. It seems more realistic to hear a name, take a stab at the correct pronoun, and respect a correction to it.

It seems like such a jump to say that people who don't figure out all the possible variations and correct language to use that is completely gender neutral and right on for all the variations, is essentially out to marginalize the community of people who don't gender identify as male or female.

Isn't there any leeway to at least let people get through "Hi" and "Nice to meet you"..... before someone is supposed to ask how a person gender identifies?


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

HeliMom -- LOL all those colors made my eyes go wacky!!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> I'm not offended by viewpoints that are different than mine, so long as they respectfully acknowledge the legitimacy of the identities of other people.
> 
> ...


I do not think anyone is inferior. Whether or not I feel something is legitimate is irrelevant, I can still value a person as a human and value their experiences.

I do not deny that 'intersex' exists as a difference in biological sex. And I don't deny that there is a spectrum of intersex. I guess I am saying there are 3 biological sexes -- male, female, and intersex. I do believe (and the stats back this up) that most people are born male or female and it is quite clear based on their biological makeup. To simplify this so I don't have to make this post 100 pages long, I'd say penis, sperm, etc. = male, XY = male; vagina, uterus, XX, etc. = female. I also fully understand that there are variations in anatomy, chromosomal differences, hormonal differences, etc. that makes some children's biological sex unclear either at birth or as they grow. I think that biological sex and social gender are two completely different things. Gender is pretty meaningless in the absence of societal constructs. I have no problem with people identifying with whichever societal construct best fits their personality, interests, etc. I think it is ridiculous that pink is for girls and boys aren't supposed to cry etc. It's hard for me to fully understand what it means to identify as male gender because male gender is just something made up. But I do think we can identify someone's biological sex as either male, female, or intersex (and yes I know that sometimes the designation of M/F is arbitrarily given at birth when perhaps it should be 'intersex'), and that doing so has value in terms of medical treatment, reproduction, etc.

That's about the best I can explain my view without getting _too_ much into my personal beliefs.


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## lovelylisa (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FAmom*
> 
> It seems like such a jump to say that people who don't figure out all the possible variations and correct language to use that is completely gender neutral and right on for all the variations, is essentially out to marginalize the community of people who don't gender identify as male or female.


I find this topic fascinating and I keep coming back to it 

I really tend to agree with you. That's kind of the problem I have with the parents in the article. While I respect their decision, on the other hand, when does a person get to be nice? Can't they just say your girl is beautiful or your boy is strong and mean it because they geniunely like your children? I don't believe most people have an agenda when they make comments, they just want to say something nice.

Isn't it up to the parents to teach the kids that people are created equal and about the differences in people?


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovelylisa*
> 
> I find this topic fascinating and I keep coming back to it
> 
> ...


No they can't. Because it teaches that girls need to value their beauty (and by omission not their strength), and that boys need to value their strength (and by omission not their beauty). Both of these are stereotypes that need to be challenged.

And at what point does someone's "right" to be nice (in a way I do not deem appropriate) trump my kid's right to not be pigeonholed because of their perceived gender?


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> I don't believe most people have an agenda when they make comments, they just want to say something nice.
> 
> Isn't it up to the parents to teach the kids that people are created equal and about the differences in people?


Stranger seem to make very rude comments-IMO

Judgmental comments, not that they are not made by family members as well.

"use to be" you didn't say something unless it was nice, it really doesn't seem the case any more

It is not up to the parents alone -IMO- parents are the first to try and created equal playing field but if society at large does not it will not go too far.

For a long periods of time parents of girls told them they could be what ever they wanted-------took "society" a long time to catch up.


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## lovelylisa (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> "use to be" you didn't say something unless it was nice, it really doesn't seem the case any more


It seems you can't say anything nice without offending someone as well 

I'm not saying that people aren't jerks and that things shouldn't be challenged. Trust me, I totally get that. I just want to point out that not everyone has the same point of view. Some may see it as someone trying to push a gender sterotype on someone, but the person just could have been trying to say something nice.

My grandma thinks it's a compliment to call someone fat. When I was a chubby awkward teenager she used to tell me how fat I was getting. So, I would cry. That was until my dad explained to me that when she was growing up, fat was good because nobody had any food. So I just learned to accept that she was trying to give me a compliment, said thank you and told her she looked great herself. Just because I (still) don't think it was appropriate, I accepted it and moved on.

However, I see the point about it being used to pigeonhole kids into something the parents don't want them to be... I just don't see it that way, but that's cool! I never would have thought of it before


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## HeliMom (Jan 14, 2010)

No don't get offended when people use female pronouns for me, I prefer the grammatically incorrect "they" and their" but I really try my best to give people thbenefit of the doubt. I expect of people to do their best not to offend someone, and I feel it's my responsibility to try my best not to be offended. I don't think that ignorance is necessarily rudeness. So I try my best to inform, now if after corrected someone on how I'd like to be referred to,.and they refused to try to make an effort to call me that, that's when I'd get upset. But honestly I never correct people on pronoun usage or sex assumptions, or sexual orientation assumptions, because for me, it's not a big deal. I do like to put in my 2 cents in general discussions about sex, gender, and sexual orienration, and I do my best to enlighten people to the spectrums.

I don't speak for all of us who don't fit neatly into boxes, I just speak for me. really.

And also crunchy mommy I don't think you seem transphobic, but then again I buy into the idea that gender is made up socially, so I might be in trouble too.


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## FAmom (Oct 28, 2010)

*No they can't. Because it teaches that girls need to value their beauty (and by omission not their strength), and that boys need to value their strength (and by omission not their beauty). Both of these are stereotypes that need to be challenged.*

*And at what point does someone's "right" to be nice (in a way I do not deem appropriate) trump my kid's right to not be pigeonholed because of their perceived gender?*

But what are you teaching your child if you teach them to give that much weight to a random "compliment" by a stranger?

What is a child learning if they look to validation from others, whether it is good or bad?

If someone says something nasty to a child, wouldn't you tell them that the other person was the one with the problem and not to listen?

If what you believe is that it is just as bad for someone to tell a girl she is beautiful, then teach your child to likewise believe that some comment, even a well intentioned one, is really uneducated and not to pay any mind to it.

And thank you HeliMom for answering. I do appreciate it. And, I appreciate that you give the benefit of the doubt. I'm not a big fan of people in general. My kids have had to learn some hard lessons already, and it is amazing how mean people can be. But I also know, there are people in this world that sometimes do the best they can, and because they don't walk along the same life path you do have no idea that they are doing anything wrong.

edited to add: I just wanted to add that the "right" to be nice may well not be a right, but if people in this world of ours decide to stop even taking a moment to be kind to each other, even with a misguided "compliment" to call someone's child beautiful, then what kind of world is that? Is everyone just supposed to keep inside their own little box, not look at anyone, or say anything?


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Some may see it as someone trying to push a gender sterotype on someone, but the person just could have been trying to say something nice.


why even attach gender to it? why not say a non-gender nicety if you have to say something?

it's not just about "gender" any more- total stranger speak freely about parent choices/style and it is not gender related-that use to be rare-it isn't any more

I have two children and a 20 year difference between, I never got the parenting comments from stranger like I do now

off- but my DD looks super young for her age- she was babysitting and pushing the stroller (in her mid 20's) - she was assaulted verbally by a stranger for having a child "at such a young age"- person thought nothing of saying what they said-just walking in the development where she was sitting

I have gotten comments like I never did before on my "parenting" in the grocery store, sitting in a dinner, etc

I think in general people really are not nice to people they don't know

regarding gender- look at all the reports of gender related random "hate" crimes committed by strangers on gays and trans (due solely to how they "look")


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## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

Wow, lot of interesting post in here.

I don't agree with the parent's choice by making their choice to raise Storm this way public. Most people don't care. IMO you are either a boy/girl thats all most people are interested in knowing when asking about a baby in my experience. Because well they don't want to offend. How many times does a person here on message boards or in real life how upset someone is because they have a girl and people go oh what a cute little boy.

Yes there are real jerks out there but I think its the minority in most cases.


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## Snapdragon (Aug 30, 2007)

lovelylisa-

I totally agree with your point about complimenting a kid and how sometimes people get offended by it- I think it is great to compliment a kid on their beauty, strength, smarts, everything-

I have a friend who was always uncomfortable by people telling her daughter when she was little that she was pretty. It didn't make sense to me! there is nothing wrong, imo, with appreciating someones beauty. It doesn't, to me, some across as- you are pretty and that is your only value. It doesn't even feel gender specific. I tell my ds all the time how smart, handsome, etcetera he is. I don't see that as a bad thing- it is just an expression of affection. I tell it to my dh too! anyway, sort of an aside from the original topic but I wanted to agree with what you said


----------



## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> No they can't. Because it teaches that girls need to value their beauty (and by omission not their strength), and that boys need to value their strength (and by omission not their beauty). Both of these are stereotypes that need to be challenged.
> 
> And at what point does someone's "right" to be nice (in a way I do not deem appropriate) trump my kid's right to not be pigeonholed because of their perceived gender?


And what if I call your son beautiful and your daughter strong? Are those comments pigenholing them?

I guess I just don't get the need to be so scared of what society will do to our children. I feel badly for these parents that they seem to have so little faith in themselves and those around them to support their child in a loving way to become whoever he/she is regardless of their genetailia. I would be concerned that *that* will be one of the most enduring messages this child receives in all this hoopla.

And I say this as a mother of sons who have worn pink and purple and dresses and long hair in public well past preschool age. My 13 year old son has the most gorgeous honey blond straight long hair. He is regularly referred to as a girl when we are out and it is up to him whether or not he corrects people - which he does about 1/2 the time - usually when it is the most polite option. We've had lots of conversations about assumptions, why they are made, why the are so very rarely deliberately unkind or inconsiderate.

I am kind of surprised at some of the experiences here. My kids have never been told not to cry or that only girls are beautiful or that there is anything gender specific about the choices they make. All my kids play hockey and soccer and fence and knit and sew and cook, and climb trees and play with dolls/love babies, and pretend play variations on the Little Princess and The Penderwicks and Star Wars. Not one of those choices has ever been the topic of a confrontation regarding gender stereotypes. They all believe themselves to be smart, strong, beautiful, nuturing, brave, adventurous, kind, gentle, athletic and artistic - those traits are who they are and have nothing to do with gender. They have people in their lives who are straight, gay, trans and every shade in between. They understand that there is nothing wrong with being male or female or "inbetween" and that their genetalia doesn't define who they are or what/who they can love. Those are choices they make.


----------



## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> why even attach gender to it? why not say a non-gender nicety if you have to say something?
> 
> ...


Where in the world do you live? Honestly I have never experienced anything like what you have described in this thread. The couple in the OP live in Toronto - which is probably one of the most gender accepting cities in the world (their Pride Week celebrations and parade are the largest in the world and are supported by all levels of government, city services including polics, our military etc marching in the parade). I don't know that your experiences would correlate to theirs. The US is a far more homophobic/cissexist society than Canada IME. That's not to say there isn't work to be done - but I don't know that it is very accurate to assume that this OPs family experiences similar discrimination as some in this thread presume.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

This reminds me of the gender neutral stuff that was a big part of one of the waves of feminism: the one where the women got short haircuts, wore suits, and didn't breastfeed because that wasn't gender neutral enough. Your choices were limited by the strict definition of what it took to be a feminist. The realization that conforming to stifling guidelines to define yourself seems to have been made and I think that is probably why the new wave of feminism rejected the limits and has an anything goes attitude. I think that restricting a child's choice of colors and toys in the name of neutrality is as repressive to the freedom to be who you want to be as that wave of feminism was. It seems counterproductive to raising a child to value who they are and to make choices when you impose your idea of who they should be, what they should wear, and what they should play with on them. I settled for letting my dd have total choice and teaching her that society considers her a female but that gender, like the toys and belongings we prefer, is a choice and so far it is working. She was teased a little when attending a conservative christian daycare, but for the most part that is what kids are learning (except for the gender is a choice part).


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> And at what point does someone's "right" to be nice (in a way I do not deem appropriate) trump my kid's right to not be pigeonholed because of their perceived gender?


People are going to label your kid no matter what's between the child's legs. I have two male children, and for years the oldest was "soooo smart" and the youngest was "soooo cute." Whatever. I just made sure the oldest knew he is not a hideous beast and the youngest knew he isn't a dunce. Nobody is scarred as far as I can tell. People are just trying to make conversation and be friendly. Just like when they ask my kids what grade they're in or how they're doing in school. Is is annoying? Sure. I'd like it if people could talk to children about something other than school. That doesn't mean that people are being inappropriate, insensitive, or phobic just because they can't imagine life without school.

Seems like lots of folks just want to assume the worst of people.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> People are going to label your kid no matter what's between the child's legs. I have two male children, and for years the oldest was "soooo smart" and the youngest was "soooo cute." Whatever. I just made sure the oldest knew he is not a hideous beast and the youngest knew he isn't a dunce. Nobody is scarred as far as I can tell. People are just trying to make conversation and be friendly. Just like when they ask my kids what grade they're in or how they're doing in school. Is is annoying? Sure. I'd like it if people could talk to children about something other than school. That doesn't mean that people are being inappropriate, insensitive, or phobic just because they can't imagine life without school.
> 
> Seems like lots of folks just want to assume the worst of people.


Probably because some of us have seen the worst of people and want to protect our kids from that.

Here is what I got (from members of my family mostly...but not entirely) when I was a kid:

You can't pick that (heavy thing) up...you're a girl.

Let me help you (with something that I was perfectly fine with on my own). Saying "no thank you" never stopped the "help".

Keep your opinions to yourself...this is a guy conversation.

You're not allowed to have an opinion about this...you're a girl (in regards to politics and social issues)

You can't be a (insert male-dominated profession here)...you're a girl. Marry a good man so you won't have to work.

Why do you want to go to college? Can't you meet a nice boy in high school?

Are you going to college to get your MRS.?

Girls don't hold doors open for people

Girls are not welcome to help set up risers for school concerts. Risers are too heavy for girls (I fought this one...infamously...and won).

Why don't you ever wear dresses? Are you gay? Why don't you wear makeup? Are you gay? Why do you only wear comfortable shoes? You a lesbian?

Don't you worry your pretty little head about it.

Are you getting fat? If you get fat nobody will want you.

Don't disagree with me. You're young and only a girl. What can you possibly know?

You can't possibly do (insert practically anything here) on your own.

And on and on and on.

So yeah, I am REALLY sensitive to gender stereotypes. Because I spent a great deal of my life fighting against ignorant people who felt my value to be nothing more than pretty, vacuous arm candy. Anything beyond that and I was a challenge to their worldview. And yes, my family are schmucks and I moved away as soon as I could tyvm. But the point is that people like this are out there folks. All of these people, for example are alive and thriving right at this very minute in the greater Detroit area. You should go visit, Canada-paradise folks...have fun! Oh, and I have also encountered similar stuff in Oklahoma and Nebraska (oh! and Texas..can't forget Texas). It is out there...


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> So yeah, I am REALLY sensitive to gender stereotypes. Because I spent a great deal of my life fighting against ignorant people who felt my value to be nothing more than pretty, vacuous arm candy. Anything beyond that and I was a challenge to their worldview. And yes, my family are schmucks and I moved away as soon as I could tyvm. But the point is that people like this are out there folks. All of these people, for example are alive and thriving right at this very minute in the greater Detroit area. You should go visit, Canada-paradise folks...have fun! Oh, and I have also encountered similar stuff in Oklahoma and Nebraska (oh! and Texas..can't forget Texas). It is out there...


I guess my point is that just because it's out there it doesn't have to be the dominent or even a prominent message for our kids. As parents we have an opportunity and the power to make huge differences in what our kids internalize, how they process stereotypes and what type of community they are raised in. And FYI I went to high school in Florida - 3 different cities. I'm not blind to the issues in the US - and I admit we continue to choose to live in Canada because I have lived in the US and know that culture is not what I want for my kids. My point was that I just don't know that the kind of experiences written in this thread are necessarily transferable or applicable to the family in the original article. I'm not negating the struggles others face. My comment was more to the idea that the parents choices were making in light of the fact that it is possible here to mitigate many of the influences that have been used as examples in this thread.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

This thread is getting very convoluted.

My point, personally, is that the choice to raise your child without discussing their genitalia with everyone who asks, at INFANCY is legitimate.

When the argument against its legitimacy is a socialized binary or stark "categories" of gender (intersex is not a gender - gender is not biological), I get offended because my experience and that of my peers tells us that perpetuating the binary perpetuates abuse to those who fall outside of it.

Storm's parents (and some people here) refuse to perpetuate the binary with labels such as "boy" and "girl" and, well, I commend that wholeheartedly. It does not necessarily mean I think that other people are oppressive, though it is oppressive to make up one's own definitions and refuse to acknowlege the self-identities of others.

I'm not Christian, but it doesn't mean I deny others' self-identified Christianity. If you say you're Christian, I believe you, and I respect your identity, as you should respect mine.

We may choose to question the intentions of the parents, but the act of every-day people to raise a child outside of a "boy"/"girl" binary is legitimate. Your choices are legitimate, too.

Just because nobody near and dear to you is out about their gender-transcendence or gender-variance, doesn't mean it isn't your responsibility to educate yourself (as best you reasonably can) about oppressions when you stumble across them.

So some of us here are actively learning about new things, and some of us here are justifying our resistance to new things and new ways of accommodating people. Gender is hard to rethink because it's shaped our whole lives, but that is exactly why it's so important to reevaluate as often as possible. Honest, open-minded reevaluation is progress.

*A quick google search on transgender, cisgender and genderqueer could get people started on actually learning about gender-variance if they don't feel they're exposed to it in their communities. It may apply, in the future, to someone who is very dear to you. Perhaps your child.*


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> When the argument against its legitimacy is a socialized binary or stark "categories" of gender (intersex is not a gender - gender is not biological), I get offended because my experience and that of my peers tells us that perpetuating the binary perpetuates abuse to those who fall outside of it.


I never said intersex is a gender. I specifically said it is a sex. And that gender has nothing to do with biology. In some ways I think we are actually saying similar things (albeit from different viewpoints with different ultimate goals).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> This thread is getting very convoluted.
> 
> My point, personally, is that the choice to raise your child without discussing their genitalia is legitimate.


I'm not sure why you keep using the word "legitimate"... I'm not sure anyone necessarily thinks it's an illegitimate choice. There are lots of legitimate choices out there that I don't agree with and I don't have to agree for them to still be legitimate. Bottom line for me, personally, is that I would not make the same choice Storm's parents did. I would much rather fight gender stereotypes by identifying the child's biological sex and letting them adhere (or not adhere) to whatever gender norms they felt fit. I don't think there's a point (beyond making a social/political statement) to hiding a child's sex and I do think it could have harmful effects as this child grows. But yes, it's still legitimate, and it's still their choice to make.

ETA: I am really enjoying this discussion, I do find everyone's opinions fascinating.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

nm - reconsidered







.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> Probably because some of us have seen the worst of people and want to protect our kids from that.
> 
> ...


You know, I honestly never got any of this and wasn't a girlie girl. I'm not saying that to minimize your experience at all. I think it is interesting that you heard most of those comments from your family and that may be the difference between you and I, because my family wouldn't have ever said anything like that. The point though is that it is possible that strangers are just trying to be kind, and don't necessarily realize that *you* have experienced so much stereotyping because many of us have not. I definitely don't want to teach my kids that the world is so mean and nasty that a comment like "your child is beautiful" is typically said out of malice or ignorance. And, I wouldn't expect to have many friendships if I automatically assumed those that commented on my kid in a seemingly positive way were being nasty. If people want to say my boy is beautiful and my girl is strong, or vice versa, great. I will take it as them trying to be kind to us. And I certainly am not going to worry that my kids' are going to be harmed by the occassional random comment by a stranger that may stereotype. I plan to be proactive enough in addressing gender stereotypes at home that a random comment shouldn't matter.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> You know, I honestly never got any of this and wasn't a girlie girl. I'm not saying that to minimize your experience at all. I think it is interesting that you heard most of those comments from your family and that may be the difference between you and I, because my family wouldn't have ever said anything like that. The point though is that it is possible that strangers are just trying to be kind, and don't necessarily realize that *you* have experienced so much stereotyping because many of us have not. I definitely don't want to teach my kids that the world is so mean and nasty that a comment like "your child is beautiful" is typically said out of malice or ignorance. And, I wouldn't expect to have many friendships if I automatically assumed those that commented on my kid in a seemingly positive way were being nasty. If people want to say my boy is beautiful and my girl is strong, or vice versa, great. I will take it as them trying to be kind to us. And I certainly am not going to worry that my kids' are going to be harmed by the occassional random comment by a stranger that may stereotype. I plan to be proactive enough in addressing gender stereotypes at home that a random comment shouldn't matter.


I agree with this. And, my ds is almost NEVER told that he is "strong" - its happened a few times, but when it did it was ME saying it! He's always told that he is beautiful though (and at 2.5 he is unmistakably a boy, since he loves red and blue, and everything trucks), teenage boys comment on how beautiful his eyes are, old people, young people, people of all different ethnic backgrounds, he's just a beautiful child, and people tell him that ALL the time. He's also very smart, so he gets lots of those comments too once he opens his mouth.

Just today we were at the beach, and he was crying about having to leave, and a sweet woman next to me said, "Tell him the water is closed, and no one can go in anymore" with a totally sympathetic look (for me, I'm sure, since I was getting a bit frustrated). Nothing negative at all, and it worked!


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## ElizabethE (Jan 15, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> Cool clip! I love learning about this stuff.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Loving your posts. The bolded = pretty much my philosophy on life, not just gender issues.

You know, I keep hearing people say how...

ridiculous this is --- why do you care? Ridiculous, why? Because it's virtually unheard of? Give it about a century and when it's commonplace, you won't find it ridiculous any more. Girls wearing pants and short hair used to be ridiculous, too.

this is going to mess the child up psychologically -- babies that young don't yet fully understand "gender", so how do you figure? Isn't that a happy, easy place to be? Lucky baby! Life is good and simple. The couple in question is going to let the child decide for itself, so by the time it's old enough to make a choice in the matter, the cat will be out of the bag (regarding "sex" and/or "gender"). We are imposing our psychological and sociological fears onto an innocent child who will do just fine with or without our approval on the matter. It won't be an issue unless people choose to make it one.
choosing not to reveal the sex is also making a choice -- and so is revealing the sex! so? at least their method potentially gives the child more freedom to become what it is in its truest nature without our interference. do you think a baby or toddler really cares if it's wearing pink or blue, how long the hair is, or if people fully grasp what is between their legs? isn't that all sort of irrelevant, anyway?

When I think of the world we live in and how many people are living with gender confusion, I know we can do better. We're still homophobic, but we have all sorts of in-between states we aren't even dealing with, either. Sometimes boys feel like boys and like girls. Sometimes girls feel like they should have been born boys. Sometimes (and this is not that infrequent at all) the sex of a person is ambiguous or all-inclusive. What gender are they? How do they get treated in high school? Do they get beat up for it? Which bathroom do they go in? There aren't simple answers for these because we won't let it be simple. We could, though, if only we were willing to make a few changes to how society views gender. And it all starts with how we raise our kids.

We used to hide some of these issues, we used to do surgery to "correct" this, we used to dress people up in bows and tell them how to be to fit in, and we have crushed people. We've ruined lives. If more of us took the approach of these parents or were even just more accepting of it, these problems would stop being so pervasive. Every time you choose for your child, you ARE making a choice. You can also choose not to choose, if you feel.

For me personally, I have an infant, a toddler, and a school-aged child. I've never kept their sexes a secret, and I like many other parents here have let the kids decide what they'd like to play with or what they'd like to dress like. They happen to have specific genitalia and assume gender roles to match. While it's early to say, I would have to guess just from being their mom and knowing them that they are straight. But, even though I don't think I have to make my child's gender a secret for a few years, that doesn't diminish the value to me of what these parents are doing. This child has no concept of what they are doing, and that's a good thing. This kid is not being punished or tortured or forced into NOT choosing a gender role. Preconceived notions get to fall away for a while and make room for true nature of the child to surface. I honestly don't see the harm in it at all. I think it's society that has the real problem and confusion over it. The child will remain happy and carefree about it all, if allowed.

In other words-- what separates me from these parents is rather than going totally ambiguous [giant questionmark], I'm going genderbending. I don't mind if you cross over. To my older children, my attitude is-- both of you have all the pink you want. Both of you have all the blue you want. Cross those lines, and then cross back over if you like. I want them to feel free to hit extremes if it feels right, and I think these parents are just avoiding either gender extreme altogether. I think we are both hoping to accomplish somewhat of the same thing, though. The virtue lies in the acceptance. Why can't we just accept each other for who we really are? Everyone is so worried about this child having a hard time in its life being accepted. In many ways, this gender neutral child will be more willingly welcomed than some of our children, with boys wearing pink or lipstick and hugging baby dolls. But, how many of you are willing to tell your little boys to stop having those freedoms just out of fear of persecution? We're taking a stand one way or another, aren't we?

Let people be whoever they are going to be as long as it isn't hurting anybody else. Willing gender ambiguity hurts no one and could only help. Parents not saying what is in between a child's legs while it is very young is not going to hurt any of us, and it's not going to hurt the child. No one is putting a gun to the child's head and saying it can never reveal its sex or gender. The larger problem here is how concerned we all are over what other people think of our gender roles, our own personal hang ups, and being unwilling to change those views in society through leading by example.

Nothing great ever happened by everyone just sticking with the program and doing as they were told. If we want the world to be a better place, sometimes radical changes have to take place. And remember, things we think of as normal now used to be radical once. We've got to have the vision to push through and progress together. One day we won't know what someone "is" just by looking at them, and that's okay.


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## ElizabethE (Jan 15, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Karenwith4*
> 
> link won't open for me
> 
> I am not sure intrasexed applies to Storm and based on the articles I have read, I am not sure that this is the issue the parents are concerned about. My sense was it was more related to gender stereotypes and expectations rather than concerns about transgender issues.


Basically, 1 in 100 children are not born as standard "male" or "female". That's a lot.

No, Storm is not intersex and appears to have specific genitalia, but the choice was made with the knowledge that it doesn't define him/her.


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> I guess I don't get why you want your DS to be perceived as being a girl either. I would think it would make more sense to, when something negative happens, stand up for him and tell the person saying "Boys don't cry" - "Yes, sometimes boys do cry, and that is perfectly fine with us."


I taught my ds to defend himself on something similar. He used to carry a doll around everywhere, and people would either think he is a girl, or once they found out he was a boy, make some sort of comment like "boys shouldnt play with dolls" - He would say, "well I'm a boy, AND I like dolls". He does this now with purple, he says "Yes, boys CAN wear purple, see, I'm wearing purple shorts right now!"

ETA:

How I'm raising ds - toys I choose are all gn - he does have some blocks (that he never plays with), puzzles, games, outdoor toys, dolls, stuffed animals, lots of books of all kinds, dress up stuff, art stuff, etc. He has a couple wooden cars that belonged to his great grandpa, but more for display than playing with.

If I choose his clothes, I choose gn stuff. He has shirts/shorts from both the boys and girls dept. I make 90% of his clothes now, he usually pics the fabric and or the pattern, and I've used both boys and girls patterns. He wears mostly gn colors - orange, yellow, red, turquoise, bright green, brick red. He LOVES purple so a lot are purple right now. The decorations on them are based on his interests - he has a sea turtle, a shark, a bike,, a sailor outfit, a couple gardening theme, a whale, rainbows, watermelon, one with flowers (his hair is insane in that pic!), purple stripes, a giraffe... My dad does travel around the world and brings him shirts back from different countries - most are blue or red because thats all they have, they usually don't even have "girl" options (pink), so even if he were a girl he would be brought the same things.

He has a kilt he likes to wear, and his favorite swim suit is euro style purple velour shorts and a rash guard (white or orange, and I'm making a purple one)

His activites are gn too - swimming, story times, science (boys and girls in the class!), and gymnastics. He will take dance in the fall. He took ballet last summer and was the only boy (out of 12) but loved it. He took a "little sports" class in the past, which I loved because the class included both boys and girls and the 'coach' treated them all the same.

Doesn't matter what he is wearing, we ALWAYS get "girl" instead of "boy", from people of all ages. I never bother to correct them because it doesn't seem to matter. He only corrects people once in a while, but usually doesn't notice or mind. It is a HUGE difference in peoples interaction with him once they find out he is a boy. We often (at least once every single time we leave the house, literally) get "she has beautiful hair/eyes" or just plain "wow, she is beautiful". And once he starts talking "she talks so well for being so little" (he is really tiny for his age). They find out he is a boy and don't know what to think "oh ummmm well he is a pretty boy" or "oh wow he will be great with the ladies" (95% of the time I get one of those two responses), or my favorite adressed to me after he has said "actually, I'm a boy, but thank you", - "Is he really a boy?". Um no, he just said that to confuse you, sorry but I'm not going to "prove" it to you, and why does it matter?

Once its established that he is a boy, they say "he talks so well for a boy", or "how old are you? wow you are big!", "you can jump high" (he likes to jump, when he is a "girl" people comment on how "she must love to dance", which turns to jumping when he is a boy - same action!). Kids even treat him different. They want him to play house if he is a "girl" or tag if he is a boy. They help him more as a "girl" on playground equipment, react differently if he falls (he falls a lot!), etc.

As far as how he acts: he plays swords (with a stick, I don't buy toy weapons), wearing purple, carrying a baby doll on his back. He reads a book about pirates, and then a ballerina one and then 10 all about animals. He loves to sing and dance, and then play what he calls "rough and tumble". He doesn't care if people think he is a boy, or a girl, and he plays with both boys and girls and willingly participates in whatever they happen to want to play. He is also very smart and funny and articulate. He is polite and knows how to have a conversation with an adult, kids, and even little ones!. He is, an awesome kid. I really hope that him being a "male" doesn't change how I raise him, I try not to let it matter as much as I possibly can, and I give him oppertunity to choose between activites, clothes, toys, etc, without bias as to gender specifications.

By the way, friends we see often think people are crazy for thinking he is a girl all the time, they are surprised when I tell them this. Maybe because I joined the mom's group online and they knew I had a boy before ever meeting in person, but I dunno. To me, even with me trying to raise him gn, he does do some "boy" things (like he loves pretending he has a weapon - he is tv free, we don't allow toy weapons (even imaginary ones are not allowed in the house or to be pointed at people)... he saw a kid at the park playing guns and has been hooked ever sense, even with me trying to get him to stop!

The article - it specifically says they will only keep the baby's gender a secret as long as ALL of the kids are comfortable with it. Because of that, I don't see a problem with it. It is a little weird they decided to do an article about it, but maybe its because so many people asked them "why" and they just wanted to put it all out there so they would quit pestering. I don't see what it matters, its their family and thats what they feel is best for their kids.

Levi:

(he loved this dress, too bad it was a custom order and not for him!)


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

If anyone is interested, the CBC is doing a segment on children and gender this morning, Sat. May 28. 10:00 PST, CBC radio, program is called Day Six. I'm pretty sure you can get it on podcast as well.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

O my goodness Leighi, your kid is too cute for words!


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scottishmommy*
> 
> O my goodness Leighi, your kid is too cute for words!


Thank you!







I think so too!


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scottishmommy*
> 
> O my goodness Leighi, your kid is too cute for words!


I would have made the same comment but now I am scared to use any words to compliment any child on this board. If strong and beautiful are out, what about cute? Are we allowed to say cute or not?


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> I would have made the same comment but now I am scared to use any words to compliment any child on this board. If strong and beautiful are out, what about cute? Are we allowed to say cute or not?


This comment makes it seem as though you're implying that people here are demanding that you not to say nice things about babies at all.

"Cute" is androgynous. It's not used to perpetuate a gender stereotype. "Strong" and "beautiful" are adjectives most often (not always) used to perpetuate gender stereotypes in children. If we tended to apply the terms "strong" and "beautiful" to kids of all sexes equally, it would not be an issue. But we do, and that fact is not missed by our children, who are trained into genders by this kind of imbalance in the way we use language, etc.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks for clearing that up. I hope I don't stumble upon anyone who does take offense to the use of cute. I use "beautiful" for all children too. Seems from these boards I'd be in trouble for using it about 50% of the time.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> "Cute" is androgynous. It's not used to perpetuate a gender stereotype. "Strong" and "beautiful" are adjectives most often (not always) used to perpetuate gender stereotypes in children.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Thanks for clearing that up. I hope I don't stumble upon anyone who does take offense to the use of cute. I use "beautiful" for all children too. Seems from these boards I'd be in trouble for using it about 50% of the time.


I know!! When I see a gorgeous child (male or female) I'm very likely to say, "What a beautiful baby!" Or "How strong!" when I see a little boy or girl who seems exceptionally... well, strong!! Now I am always going to wonder if I am insulting someone when I say their girl is beautiful ("gender stereotyping") or their boy is beautiful ("are you calling my boy a girl?") You can't win!! Oh and add in a few parents who think saying ANYTHING about looks is being superficial... yikes... I sure hope MOST parents don't feel insulted like that when I try to say something nice about their kiddos!!


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## FAmom (Oct 28, 2010)

*This comment makes it seem as though you're implying that people here are demanding that you not to say nice things about babies at all.*

I can understand why that person commented the way they did.... it is feeling like every word is being parsed as to the politically correct gender neutral wording. I also thought the posters child was absolutely adorable, but also wasn't going to say anything either for the same reason.

*"Cute" is androgynous. It's not used to perpetuate a gender stereotype. "Strong" and "beautiful" are adjectives most often (not always) used to perpetuate gender stereotypes in children. If we tended to apply the terms "strong" and "beautiful" to kids of all sexes equally, it would not be an issue. But we do, and that fact is not missed by our children, who are trained into genders by this kind of imbalance in the way we use language, etc*

So, wait, now "strong" and "beautiful" are out? Who determines that?

I have 3 boys. I am constantly telling them how beautiful they are. All. The. Time. In reference to not only how they look, but in reference to who they are inside.

Is everyone supposed to walk around, not say anything? Or, when they say something they are supposed to qualify it with the intent behind why they said it?

Is everything supposed to be taken out of common everyday language because of subjective viewpoints that might construe everything that could possibly be viewed as not gender neutral and offensive as such?

And, frankly, how can you train a gender anyway? That almost suggests that you could train someone to be gay or lesbian.

If you look at one of the most recent stories out there with Chaz Bono...... he said that he always felt like he was in the wrong body. Born Chastity, with frilly dresses and all. Heck, his Mom is Cher. And, still, he knew on the inside that the outside didn't match. How many times did Chaz get called all sorts of adjectives that are associated typically with girls.... yet, today, he is living as a man.

Maybe I'm just missing something so incredibly huge here, but why give so much power over to what other people say?

My kids have been bullied. Picked on. Teased. I was too.

Does that make everything true? Do I teach my kids to live by what other people say about them, or by what they know to be true about themselves?


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> I would have made the same comment but now I am scared to use any words to compliment any child on this board. If strong and beautiful are out, what about cute? Are we allowed to say cute or not?










I take no offence with any compliment. Ds is strong, beautiful, and cute! (smart/polite/happy are my favorite compliments, but those come more from meeting him vs a photo)


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## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

Interesting thread! The OP asked what people thought about keeping this child's sex a secret - and I think this situation seems odd, really. There are a number of things that feel uncomfortable about it to me -

First, that the older children are being asked to keep it a secret. I agree with another poster who said that when something is kept a secret, there is the implication that something is wrong. It seems even odder that they obviously know that their sex was disclosed, but for some reason, the youngest sibling's sex is not. Then, that it went a step further and the parents flipped a coin to decide if they would refer to the child as male or female when they were going on vacation -so that they either did lie, or were willing to lie, in front of their other kids really sends, I think, a confusing message.

Second, I don't get why the mom didn't stick up for her son in the store and buy him the pink boa. Again, it seems like a weird message to your kids to keep the siblings sex a secret in an attempt to not have the baby burdened with gender stereotypes, but then when the older child has a very real experience with gender stereotyping, the mom doesn't go to bat for him.

Really, I think that what the parents are doing doesn't, and won't, be of any real service to Storm. I think any child would benefit from parents who are mindful, sensitive and supportive to their kid regardless of what they are in to (and really stick up for them to another adult should the child decide to cross traditional gender lines) and honest.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamadebug*
> 
> First, that the older children are being asked to keep it a secret. I agree with another poster who said that *when something is kept a secret, there is the implication that something is wrong.* It seems even odder that they obviously know that their sex was disclosed, but for some reason, the youngest sibling's sex is not. Then, that it went a step further and the parents flipped a coin to decide if they would refer to the child as male or female when they were going on vacation -so that they either did lie, or were willing to lie, in front of their other kids really sends, I think, a confusing message.


Bolding mine. ITA. It must be some dirty, shameful secret that the older siblings are doing storm such a big favor protecting him/her from. Really wrong message to send. I don't think all the stereotypes out there are right, but we need another solution, and this is NOT it.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> Probably because some of us have seen the worst of people and want to protect our kids from that.
> 
> ...


You can add to that:

It's not ladylike to... (chew gum, play ball, climb trees, 5 million ohter things)

You can be so pretty when you want to be.

No man will put up with that (speaking my mind, laughing loudly, not cooking....)

Because that is a womans job! (laundry, cooking...)

You'll never find a man with that attitude (after all, finding a man is my purpose in life, because without one my life has no real meaning, purpose or value.)

No man will ever have you now (meannig a lack of virginity means I am a worthless piece of chattel)

Men don't like women who are too bright (try and be stupid you idiot)

....

For those of you that never heard such things, just move on and don't worry your pretty little head over it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ElizabethE*
> 
> Nothing great ever happened by everyone just sticking with the program and doing as they were told. If we want the world to be a better place, sometimes radical changes have to take place. And remember, things we think of as normal now used to be radical once. We've got to have the vision to push through and progress together. One day we won't know what someone "is" just by looking at them, and that's okay.


This is so true. For almost everything in life. Radical ideas spur growth and creativity. Of course they also spur a lot of evil. But we won't progress at all, for good or bad, if we are only sheep.

And just because you do agree with the group (like I do about the original issue being not the best idea for storm or the rest of the family), does not make you a sheep. No one has to have a radical opinion about all issues for their opinion to be valid.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

pp's child is beautiful... my child is beautiful... *ALL* children are beautiful. 

however, if you guys wanna see something that will REALLY mess a child up (much more than gender neutral parenting) ask some grown up children who had their entire childhood centered around their appearance. when people praise and appear to value one for beauty alone, it's a sad thing. some lessons early on continue throughout life: don't ever try to do anything else, all you need is to look good. don't worry about being a good person (you look good). look good at all costs, even starve or puke to do so. surround yourself with people who continue to praise you. find yourself terribly alone when your beauty doesn't exist in the same way. spend lots of money as you age to try to cling to that image of perfection.

this and much, much more.

OT a bit, sorry.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quick Start Guide to Gender-Healthy Parenting


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Well, if it seems as though I'm implying that, its because I am . This is the third thread I can think of in the past few weeks in which people were basically spanked for making any comments on a child's appearance period. And while I agree that it isn't appropriate or healthy to focus heavily on an infant or child's appearance, I also think it is overkill to freak out when someone calls someone else beautiful, male or female. Half the time when I say to a friend "your newborn is beautiful!", I am really not even meaning the child's appearance. I am meaning many other things...more a celebration of "what a wonderful new life! how beautiful. congratulations."

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> This comment makes it seem as though you're implying that people here are demanding that you not to say nice things about babies at all.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Well, if it seems as though I'm implying that, its because I am . This is the third thread I can think of in the past few weeks in which people were basically spanked for making any comments on a child's appearance period. And while I agree that it isn't appropriate or healthy to focus heavily on an infant or child's appearance, I also think it is overkill to freak out when someone calls someone else beautiful, male or female. Half the time when I say to a friend "your newborn is beautiful!", I am really not even meaning the child's appearance. I am meaning many other things...more a celebration of "what a wonderful new life! how beautiful. congratulations."


Nobody here is implying that it is a problem to call anyone beautiful - we're just marveling at the polarization of adjectives based on perceived gender.


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## lovelylisa (Jan 23, 2009)

I agree. They are beautiful, darn it. And I reserve the right to tell people as much as I please 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Well, if it seems as though I'm implying that, its because I am . This is the third thread I can think of in the past few weeks in which people were basically spanked for making any comments on a child's appearance period. And while I agree that it isn't appropriate or healthy to focus heavily on an infant or child's appearance, I also think it is overkill to freak out when someone calls someone else beautiful, male or female. Half the time when I say to a friend "your newborn is beautiful!", I am really not even meaning the child's appearance. I am meaning many other things...more a celebration of "what a wonderful new life! how beautiful. congratulations."


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> Nobody here is implying that it is a problem to call anyone beautiful - we're just marveling at the polarization of adjectives based on perceived gender.


That wasn't what I read.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> That wasn't what I read.


Yeah, what you read was probably my post(s). And I'll say it again...focusing on a child's looks bugs the crap outta me. Gender roles aside, people call my son beautiful all the time (although, again people can't always tell he is a boy because of how he is dressed). Its pretty much a conversation killer. So go ahead and be "nice" but you cannot expect me to get excited about it.

You wouldn't walk up to an adult you didn't know well and tell them they were beautiful, right? That would be hella rude. Why is it ok with a kid?


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> Yeah, what you read was probably my post(s). And I'll say it again...focusing on a child's looks bugs the crap outta me. Gender roles aside, people call my son beautiful all the time (although, again people can't always tell he is a boy because of how he is dressed). Its pretty much a conversation killer. So go ahead and be "nice" but you cannot expect me to get excited about it.
> 
> You wouldn't walk up to an adult you didn't know well and tell them they were beautiful, right? That would be hella rude. Why is it ok with a kid?


You could walk up to me and tell me I'm beautiful anytime you like. It would make my day. Seriously, with all the mom frump, it really would!

Chamomile, it does sound like you endured some real bigotry and misogyny when you were growing. I was pretty appalled to read your list of things your family members had said to you over the years. I can understand how a compliment on physical beauty would not end there for you. Your mind might be adding adjectives to "beautiful" (stupid, useless, etc) that really were not intended. If I told you you or your kids that you were beautiful, it would only mean that. It would imply nothing else. Just a compliment. Full stop. No insinuations, no expectations. It honestly wouldn't occur to me that it would be considered rude or offensive to compliment someone on their appearance. I have done so in the past and likely will again.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Annie Mac*
> 
> You could walk up to me and tell me I'm beautiful anytime you like. It would make my day. Seriously, with all the mom frump, it really would!


Me too!!


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> You wouldn't walk up to an adult you didn't know well and tell them they were beautiful, right? That would be hella rude. Why is it ok with a kid?


you are very correct as far as I am concerned---if an older man (complete stranger )walks up to a teen or pre-teen girl *or* boy and says how "beautiful" they are--most parents would freak

my DH would not like another male walking up to us (again complete stranger) and saying how beautiful I was

I get exactly what you mean and what you said

IMO- a lot of the "comments" that are so hard for some to grasp I feel have much to do with age and location (where you live)--if you haven't experienced some of that it could be for a number of reasons but yes they are very true, I have heard them, I have heard others use them and I have seen many deeply effected by them


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> you are very correct as far as I am concerned---if an older man (complete stranger )walks up to a teen or pre-teen girl *or* boy and says how "beautiful" they are--most parents would freak
> 
> ...


Doesn't this have a lot to do the intentions though? In the circumstances you describe, completely without context, many of us would assume (or at least quietly suspect) that the complimenter had ulterior inappropriate sexual intentions. Predatory intentions. That's different than offering someone a sincere compliment.

I mean, I get what you're saying. I do understand. It's just that don't like that world vision, a world in which I can't give or receive a compliment for fear of being perceived as a predator or attracting a predator. That's the same world where teachers can't hug children when they fall down and scrape their knee and need a hug (and unfortunately, we all live in that world). Too much fear for me. Too much distrust. Of course there are predators out there, but I'd like to assume that MOST people aren't, that MOST people, when they offer a compliment, are sincere.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Predatory intentions. That's different than offering someone a sincere compliment.


I see no difference---again, *age*! it's acceptable to say it to a child/infant

-----is it not sincere if an old person gives it in the examples I stated?

what makes one correct and the other not? both stranger----age isn't it?

I can give countless stories from my local paper on infants/children being abused

to me it is not predatory---you JUMPED to that conclusion ---nothing said it was but you jumped!

there are plenty of people that I found very creep that think nothing of talking to my child/infant


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

It's probably also from me you got the anti-beautiful thing. I sincerely do NOT appreciate people telling my child (especially since we only get the beautiful thing when people think dd is a girl) that she is beautiful. Because when somebody hears that over and over again, also when it is tied specifically to a sex or characteristics that people project onto girl children, it is disempowering and sends the message that appearances are the only thing of value that they own.

'Girl' children are told that 'beautiful' is what they should be, most of what they should aspire to. look at the princess crap all around you, and see if that is not the main message that children get from it. beautiful is not something my child, your child, any child has any control over. it is not an accomplishment, nor is it a talent or a character trait. i just don't see why physical appearance is the one thing people feel that it is appropriate to comment on. 'beautiful' is a judgment call. you are judging my child to be worthy of your aesthetic standards.

it just feels icky to me. it seems patronizing and it also deprives a child of a sense of actual accomplishment. that's a whole other topic but i wanted to explain. it stings much more so because for the most part, people ONLY ever say that to the 'girl' child and not to the 'boy' child. repeated enough times, that message becomes 'you are pretty. you don't need to/shouldn't strive for anything else because that is all that people appreciate about you. you only get compliments when you look pretty (and thus submit to the judgement of others).'

and. you know. it's pretty funny to me that people are acting as though it's shocking and the 'language police' don't want them to say beautiful and yet it is perfectly ok to call someone's parenting style ridiculous. i would much prefer you censor yourself when you are directly INSULTING someone's choices rather than pretending to be insulted or prohibited from saying something because a small minority disagree with your word choice. if you are concerned about insulting someone, then maybe you should first listen to their preferences, then acknowledge that and agree that parents do have some sort of control over the way that you interact with their children. if you do not agree, then fine! if i respectfully ask that you not call me or my child something, i fail to see why that is a big stinking deal?


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> I see no difference---again, *age*! it's acceptable to say it to a child/infant
> 
> ...


I think it's because words like "beautiful" take on a sexual connotation at some point (I guess somewhere around puberty)... So before that point, it's considered an innocent comment -- as long as it's not said in a creepy way or something -- but after that point, it's considered more sexual. But if you set aside the appearance-based meaning of beauty, yes adults DO tell each other they are beautiful in ways that are not ill-intentioned or weird... more like an inner beauty thing... I hear this particularly from people who are really sincere, warm, open people.

But the thing is, in general we just compliment children way more than adults. I assume it's because people want to be kind and encouraging and uplifting to the most vulnerable and impressionable members of our society... and because people just don't know what to say, so try to say something kind of neutral (or at least that MOST people view as neutral/non-controversial...)


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> yes adults DO tell each other they are beautiful in ways that are not ill-intentioned or weird...


random strangers in my city do not come up to me and say this

this is a comment that I feel is reserved for *non-strangers* (people you know-friends,etc.) to say to a person they know---it is far different to make a comment to a child you know as to one you do not know (the jest of this thread)---how it is perceived and or welcomed in society--to me this is not about what a friend says to another

Quote:


> i would much prefer you censor yourself when you are directly INSULTING someone's choices rather than pretending to be insulted or prohibited from saying something because a small minority disagree with your word choice


same here!


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> random strangers in my city do not come up to me and say this
> 
> this is a comment that I feel is reserved for *non-strangers* (people you know-friends,etc.) to say to a person they know---it is far different to make a comment to a child you know as to one you do not know (the jest of this thread)---how it is perceived and or welcomed in society--to me this is not about what a friend says to another


OK I get what you're saying, though I do think strangers say things like, "I love your ____" (haircut, earrings, tattoo, shirt, whatever)... and that's kind of a round-a-bout way of saying, "You're beautiful"... In general, no, strangers don't come right out & say it.

I guess I still don't see the big deal, why compliments are such a horrible thing. I don't think that MOST people who say things like that about a child are not trying to say "only looks matter" or contribute to gender stereotypes or send unwelcome messages to your child. Most people are just trying to break the ice a bit, or fill an awkward silence, or trying to brighten your day a little, or just communicate that you are seen, you aren't in a vacuum...


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


When I am assuming the best of people I just figure they don't know how to talk to kids so they talk about them. Especially true when you have young kids who tend to stare at people.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> I guess I still don't see the big deal, why compliments are such a horrible thing.


"compliments" about objects are far different (the purse, shoe, etc) -IMO

"compliments" about your appearance are different - with different meaning -IMO


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> I see no difference---again, *age*! it's acceptable to say it to a child/infant
> 
> ...


I jumped there because of the examples you gave. An old man complimenting a pre-pubescent or teenage girl or boy. And your husband not appreciating other men telling you you're beautiful. In our culture, those are pretty loaded images: possible pedophile and letchy adulterer, respectively. That's what made me think that predatory behaviour was an underlying issue to be distinguished from me telling a co-worker she looks really pretty today.

But your post made me think: would I say the same thing to a stranger of any age? I would probably comment on cute babies...because really, what else do I know of them except what they look like, and you know, they ARE cute! But no gender distinction. I would probably say cute before beautiful, but in my mind, either is OK for either gender. There are grown men I would term beautiful too. But you're right, I wouldn't compliment a *strange* adult on their personal appearance in a general sense. I might say something like, "hey, I love your hairstyle!" (and might ask where they got it done), but I wouldn't tell a grown man or woman that they are generally, overall beautiful.

So why would I say it to a baby but not an adult? Maybe because I'm trying more to connect with the mom? It's really more for her? In the same spirit that I try and offer stranger's compliments if I see an opportunity? Anyway, stuff to think about! I do enjoy these discussions, sometimes my own behaviours and beliefs are really challenged, and that's a good thing!


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## FAmom (Oct 28, 2010)

*"compliments" about objects are far different (the purse, shoe, etc) -IMO*

*"compliments" about your appearance are different - with different meaning -IMO*

You know, as I let this kind of swirl in my head, along with the rest of this thread, maybe part of it all for me is that given what all we are going through as a family, I would welcome anything positive said about my kids.

I've heard lots of things said to me, or said to my kids, from people that actually know us, that aren't nice. That aren't about what they look like, or about a gender stereotype, but really are about something they are medically born with and can't help.

Maybe, for me, I think about the fact that it is far and few between when I hear anything nice said, instead of something being held against, that I think that it seems like a luxury to be able to dismiss even a well intended compliment as something horrible.

And, for me, I think, that living trying to speculate about all of the things that other people could say, do, intend, mean, etc., and make sure you cover all of the variables, with the idea that you have to cover all your bases "just in case" years down the road because maybe it will or will not be ...... well..... I don't know how a person can really manage it.

I buy things because they are on sale, they are easy to clean, they are a color that doesn't stain easily, and likely I can pass it from one kid to the next. Making sure that everything from toys to clothes that I buy are perfectly PC is just out of the realm of my capabilities as I strive to just make it through a day.

I hope everything turns out well for these people and their children.

I guess I will have to be forgiving of my self enough that the mistakes I make, in possibly trying to be nice, will be enough. I kind of get the feeling that no matter what someone tries to do, however well intended, and done with the hope of not offending anyone in any way, will always be able to be found offensive by someone. Especially if people try hard enough to find fault.

This whole discussion started out very interesting to me, and has just left me feeling incredibly sad.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> This whole discussion started out very interesting to me, and has just left me feeling incredibly sad.


I'm sorry it has made you sad. I think that all of us have a similar motivation...to make it through a day the best we can while protecting and raising our kids the best we know how. But everyone comes from different shaping forces so they see different priorities in the "protecting and raising" part. I don't see anything wrong with that.

And I honestly don't see striving for a gender-neutral lifestyle for my kid as looking at everything through a PC filter. Young kids are pretty androgynous already. I see it more as honoring that androgyny and not pushing a gender identity onto my two-year old that is more appropriate for a ten-year old. I don't do this because I have to but because I really, really want to, so its not onerous to me. When I buy stuff for the kid I also look for stuff that will last...and yes sometimes it is frustrating that I cannot find an affordable gender neutral option at Target. When that happens I cripe a lot to my husband look else where







.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

the parents of storm responded to the media fury. http://www.thestar.com/news/article/998960--genderless-baby-s-mother-responds-to-media-frenzy?bn=1


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

What a beautiful letter.

I guess the biggest lesson I take away from this is not to agree to an interview discussing your parenting decisions...


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

I only skimmed this thread, and wanted to read it and the original article more in-depth before jumping in, but.... DS (3) didn't nap today, so I didn't get the time I wanted to read everything. Instead, we went to the grocery store. On the way out, we were right behind a mom and her kids, a little girl in a frilly pink dress and an older boy with gorgeous shoulder-length golden blond hair. His arm was in a sling, and he was wearing a soccer uniform, like he'd just come from a practice (or the ER, depending on when the sling went on...). DS pointed and said, "What's that on her arm?" I said, "Where?" He said, "That girl right there! What's on her arm?" When I asked him why he thought that was a girl, he said, "I don't know." But he did argue with me that it was NOT a boy we were talking about. We don't draw gender lines in our house, but DS has always been your stereotypical boy, other than the fleeting interest in pink sandals and gender-neutral dolls. I have no idea why he would assume only girls have long hair. We've met plenty of men with long hair, and he's never made that mistake before.

My point is that even a 3-year-old is making some assumptions just based on certain physical traits. He doesn't even know it yet, but he is. That's just what people do, whether they think about it, or want to, or not. So I don't know what the woman in the article thinks she is getting out of this. Even if people don't know the baby's gender, they will still make assumptions about it and therefore inflict their views on him/her in their interactions. She would have to force the kid to look androgynous in order to keep people guessing if she really wants them to react gender-neutrally to the child, and she's obviously not going to do that. I don't understand why it can't be enough that the older brother is clearly already an example (if what she's saying is true and it's all his choice) that it doesn't matter what your chromosomes say, you can wear your hair however you want, and whatever clothes you want. Why is she trying to change what she can't (the way others see people) and focus on helping her kids grow up to be secure, open-minded, confident people?


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## AttunedMama (Jan 19, 2011)

Yay for Mama Kathy. What a wonderful conversation that her family has helped to push along. I know the world is currently run-over with people who can't cope, but that can't stop her from living the good life.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> the parents of storm responded to the media fury. http://www.thestar.com/news/article/998960--genderless-baby-s-mother-responds-to-media-frenzy?bn=1


Whatever reservations I have about the particular parenting choice they have made, I respect how they are managing the fallout from the article. The letter reflects much grace, strength and an enviable amount of tolerance, patience and good will. It's too bad for her family that she didn't write her own article in the first place.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

In case this hasn't been posted yet:

PBS interactive map of gender-diverse cultures:

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/two-spirits/map.html


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

aaaaaaah so it was Jazz who started it. what a beautiful letter. so from the heart.

NYCVeg - thanks for the link. that's exactly what i was looking for.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

I just don't think it's very kind to turn your child's life into a social experiment. That's my #1 problem with this.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

but it doesnt sound like a social experiment.

its a family decision to do something differently - that's all.

for that matter isnt everything we really do a social experiment. the fact that i practise consensual parenting - isnt it a social experiment too?

they are trying to live their philosophy. what is wrong with that?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> but it doesnt sound like a social experiment.
> 
> ...


This is how I see it, too. The more I learn about being human, the better I think it is to give our children room to be themselves and find themselves. That is all this family is trying to do. And, at any time, this child can decide that s/he wants to start telling people, "I'm a girl" or "I'm a boy." It's really not like this child is being forced to keep it a secret.


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## KaliShanti (Mar 23, 2008)

I think it's going to be tough on the child socially whether he or she goes to school or not and I think it invites all kinds of psycological issues.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KaliShanti*
> 
> I think it's going to be tough on the child socially whether he or she goes to school or not and I think it invites all kinds of psycological issues.


How so? The child is free to decide when s/he is ready for this information to be given.

What kinds of psychological issues do you think it will invite, for the child to be able to make this call?


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> but it doesnt sound like a social experiment.
> 
> ...


You having a certain parenting philosophy is a bit different. And the child doesn't have a say in this experiment.I can see if s/he gets to the age of reason and then makes the decision. But this is all about the parents making a decision for their child, as an experiment. As far as I can tell.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> You having a certain parenting philosophy is a bit different. And the child doesn't have a say in this experiment.I can see if s/he gets to the age of reason and then makes the decision. But this is all about the parents making a decision for their child, as an experiment. As far as I can tell.


Did you read the article? The child gets to decide if and when to reveal this information. The child is not required to keep his or her gender a secret. The parents are simply not giving out this information until such time as the child wants it given out.

So I guess you could say that they're making a choice to let their child make the choice. In that case, of course, we are all making choices for our children, including those of us who try to parent responsively rather than doing CIO, and so on. I guess even protecting our children's right to make their own choices is a choice we are making "for" them, as in, on their behalf.

I don't agree, though, with the idea that it's always a "social experiment" whenever parents follow their instincts to do something outside the mainstream. We do many things as parents without knowing exactly what the result will be - but these are our beloved children, not objects in a petri dish. We can't always know that we are making the best choices, however hard we try to be sure, but this doesn't mean we are experimenting on our children.


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