# Seeing a child get spanked in public



## TheLuckiestEllie

What do you do when you see a child get spanked in public? I witnessed this tonight.







The kid was maybe 8 or 9 years, and wasn't doing a single thing wrong that I could see. The mom just screamed and screamed at him and then she spanked him several times. I felt sick to my stomach but I had no idea if I should do anything. I just gave DS a big hug and turned him away so he couldn't see. What would you have done?


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## dex_millie

Since you don't know why he got spank, I would not do anything. More than likely the mom would have just defended herself. Not saying there isn't a time when to speak up(So no flaming about not spreading the word of GD), I guess when those situation arises it will hopefully flow nicely without making a mother feel like she is 'bad' or have to defend herself.


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## pumpkinyum

I wouldn't have done anything but just get dd away from the situation. If the mother was beating the child, then I would tell someone at the store, such as a manager.

Honestly, hearing screaming and hurtful words upsets me more than seeing a child get spanked.


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## funkygranolamama

I'm scared to say anything to the parents about spanking for fear of them taking their anger toward me out on their child. I agree that I would tell store management and police if I saw beating.


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## medicmama

I saw a mom smack a baby's hand at our pedi's office. My dd was in the sling touching the tree leaves and giggling. The other toddler was standing on a chair wanted to touch too. She grabed the leaves and pulled down the branches,and mom smacks her and yells don't touch! Baby cry's . My super sensitive 6 y/o yells ( at the top of his lungs ) at the mom "Don't hit her,she's only a baby!" ** Office worker calls doc and doc files abuse charges. **

Mom looks at me and tells me to mind my own unruly kid. I simply said touch her again I'm calling the police.


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## pumpkinyum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *medicmama* 
I saw a mom smack a baby's hand at our pedi's office. My dd was in the sling touching the tree leaves and giggling. The other toddler was standing on a chair wanted to touch too. She grabed the leaves and pulled down the branches,and mom smacks her and yells don't touch! Baby cry's . My super sensitive 6 y/o yells ( at the top of his lungs ) at the mom "Don't hit her,she's only a baby!" ** Office worker calls doc and doc files abuse charges. **

Mom looks at me and tells me to mind my own unruly kid. I simply said touch her again I'm calling the police.


Call the police for what? I'm confused.


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## dex_millie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *medicmama* 
I saw a mom smack a baby's hand at our pedi's office. My dd was in the sling touching the tree leaves and giggling. The other toddler was standing on a chair wanted to touch too. She grabed the leaves and pulled down the branches,and mom smacks her and yells don't touch! Baby cry's . My super sensitive 6 y/o yells ( at the top of his lungs ) at the mom "Don't hit her,she's only a baby!" ** Office worker calls doc and doc files abuse charges. **

Mom looks at me and tells me to mind my own unruly kid. I simply said touch her again I'm calling the police.

Call the police







: What the hell







: Fill abuse charges







:







:

************Don't think I was advocating or defending physical punishment but I will take this paragraph out, just giving an example of not to judge everyone who smack on the hand*************

************I do plan on practicing it. But some of yall act like all spankers is the same, and all are abusive. That is all some people knew how children are to be raised and some really believed in it.

That is not to say that I also don't get some good tips from here. I just believe that sometimes the word 'abusive, abusers' are used lightly.
I know I might get flames for this but I guess this time I had to say something. Not all smacker on the hand people are abusers.


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## baileyandmikey

i hate it when i see a mom have an outburst and then start smaking her child, i feel bad, but it is not my place to say anything.


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## angieluvsramon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dex_millie* 
Call the police







: What the hell







: Fill abuse charges







:







:

My parents use to smack us on the hand when we was younger (that what they told us, we don't remember, too young). I would have been more devasted if CPS came to our house or took me away from my parents than to get a smack on a hand. Oh and my parents was NOT ABUSIVE. They are very kind and loving. It wasn't regular that they did this anyways(and it all stop when we was 6/7 - they don't believe in spanking after a certain age), I only remember getting spanked once and basically after/and befer they did some form of GD. They also never yelled at us(what yall proberly think all spankers did).

My spanker parents(mostly father) was loving, took us on trips 1- 2 times a year, always told us he loved, was proud of us, couldn't ask for better children. We went fishing, biking, kayaking, skating, sport games, had a party every year for my b-day, give us money(he would even ask us if we want and we would say 'no' sometimes you know why - because we knew he would gave us whenever we ask), everything he does and work for is for us, even bought and built a home in my mothers country so when we visit we have a place to stay(and he gave me a key). My younger sister jumps on his lap(she is 16), plays/plait his hair, hugs him, have jokes with him - does He sound like a Abuser. If we came to him with something we did at school(before the teacher did) he would just say "Well, just watch what you getting yourself into, and don't try don't do it again". Paid my way to college and the apt. I lived in until I got married. Paid for all my airline tickets to come home until I got married, etcc.....

Sometimes I don't even like comming to this GD forum. I do plan on practicing it. But some of yall act like all spankers is the same, and all are abusive. That is all some people knew how children are to be raised and some really believed in it.

I know I might get flames for this but I guess this time I had to say something. Not all smacker on the hand people are abusers.









: I feel the same way....some people are so quick to call the cops. It is not like she smacked her in the face, she tapped the baby's hand! Calling the cops in this situation is just a little extreme! I rarely come on this forum for the same reason!


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## captain crunchy

It is true that not all spankers are abusing their children, but hitting a child is an abusive act. Plain and simple. It is certainly not a loving act. Please be reminded that advocating or defending physical punishment is never allowed on the GD forum or on MDC (see user agreement).

Anyway, OP that sure is a hard situation to be in. I admit I have reacted in (negative) emotional ways when I have seen spanking. I am getting better in my approach, as I realize it does put people on the defensive and feeling defensive isn't the way to open someone's mind or heart.

I have had the most success asking a mama if she is having a bad day or trying to empathize. NOT advocating hitting or sympathizing in the way that communicates "yeah, sometimes they need to be hit" -- but sympathizing in a way that communicates (in a gentle way) that the hitter's behavior isn't acceptable (to me) while also assuming that they don't usually act like this.

I like something like, "wow it looks like you are having a tough day. Do you need help?" in a genuinely concerned, non threatening way. Then I engage the child if it seems like that will help. It might not change their whole parenting style but at least they know someone is watching and also I think when they feel heard and validated (again, not validated in their hitting but in their feelings of frustration or stress) they usually calm down.

I usually engage a mama (or papa) before it gets to hitting if I see they are becoming frustrated/stressed/upset. If the child is around my child's age (or younger) I will say a validating/commiserating statement with maybe a veiled piece of advice -- something like "wow, when my daughter was that age the only thing that would comfort her is ____" or spin it into a positive like "wow, I see a singer in your future, what a strong voice!!" (if they are screaming or something). This is more for their benefit, because I think many parents feel like they have to be MORE of a [email protected] in public, lest someone think they are ineffective/bad parent/can't *control* thier child. I try to laugh and smile and engage them before the hitting happens -- and if it has happened I do what I mentioned above.

Hope that helps


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## llamalluv

Quote:


Originally Posted by *medicmama* 
I saw a mom smack a baby's hand at our pedi's office. My dd was in the sling touching the tree leaves and giggling. The other toddler was standing on a chair wanted to touch too. She grabed the leaves and pulled down the branches,and mom smacks her and yells don't touch! Baby cry's . My super sensitive 6 y/o yells ( at the top of his lungs ) at the mom "Don't hit her,she's only a baby!" ** Office worker calls doc and doc files abuse charges. **

Mom looks at me and tells me to mind my own unruly kid. I simply said touch her again I'm calling the police.

My biggest problem with the situation is that the toddler was *STANDING ON A CHAIR* while the mother just sat there. Did no one else catch that?!


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## Genesis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
It is true that not all spankers are abusing their children, but hitting a child is an abusive act. Plain and simple. It is certainly not a loving act.









:


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## pumpkinyum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
It is true that not all spankers are abusing their children, but hitting a child is an abusive act. Plain and simple. It is certainly not a loving act.

Hope that helps










I have a very different opinion. And to call the police for someone smacking their hands child is incredibly over the top.







:


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## onelilguysmommy

you really cant do anything unless its all out beating

sorry but if someone came up and was trying to suggest stuff like my kid screaming to the point it makes me physically sick because i got a migraine that its a GOOD thing, id have a major issue with you, i mean thats really rude, imo. if a mama is trying to deal with her child screaming, and has another one, etc...umm..adding another voice in the mix, and saying something so rude is not going to help anything but make the mama more exasperated!!


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## captain crunchy

wow, it has worked for me in the past (every time I should note) --- fortunately it wasn't you I approached









More times than not it isn't that the person has a migraine and they are physically sick (then why would you continue shopping in Target for like, wicker baskets if that were the case?) from the screaming, it is they are looking around getting all stressed because they perceive others are judging them and going to think they are not "being too harsh" in *controlling* their child.

On a completely unrelated note, did you know there was a no flaming tribe in FYT?


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## captain crunchy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onelilguysmommy* 
you really cant do anything unless its all out beating


No, you _choose_ not to do anything unless it is an all out beating.


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## thismama

Hitting a child is definitely an abusive act.

When I have seen it, I have said something to the parent, every time. It's not okay, and we need to not pretend it is.


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## captain crunchy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Hitting a child is definitely an abusive act.

When I have seen it, I have said something to the parent, every time. It's not okay, and we need to not pretend it is.

Don't think I haven't ticked that down in my ongoing list of things we agree on thismama
















at your post.


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## thismama




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## Genesis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Hitting a child is definitely an abusive act.

When I have seen it, I have said something to the parent, every time. It's not okay, and we need to not pretend it is.









I completely agree. And good for you for saying something!


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## Fuamami

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Hitting a child is definitely an abusive act.

When I have seen it, I have said something to the parent, every time. It's not okay, and we need to not pretend it is.

Yes, but please don't burden the already overtaxed family court system with someone who smacks their child's hand. I agree that calling the police for that is over the top.


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## thismama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Yes, but please don't burden the already overtaxed family court system with someone who smacks their child's hand. I agree that calling the police for that is over the top.

The family court system has nothing to do with spanking. It addressed custody and divorce issues.

I have never called the police myself when someone hits a child, but really why is that such an overreaction? We would call the police for assault on an adult, why is assault on a child so much less important?


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## angieluvsramon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
The family court system has nothing to do with spanking. It addressed custody and divorce issues.

I have never called the police myself when someone hits a child, but really why is that such an overreaction? We would call the police for assault on an adult, why is assault on a child so much less important?

If I was in a situation where I spanked my childs hand I would hate for cps to come to my door and take my happy healthy children away from their home. Now I agree that spanking isnt right and I myself anm trying to stop spanking my child, but when you see these parents in public, you dont know them or their lifestyles and unless they are truly HARMING their child you should not just report them. A spank on the hand does not constitute as assault. Do you know how many times I have been cooking and my husband comes and tries to sneek a piece of food and I smacked his hand away???? what about when my husband smacks my butt?? Is that assault too???







: if that is assault we should have been arrested a long time ago! I agree spanking isnt right but please dont use the assault line. Like I said before if she would have actually hurt the baby then yeah, please report it but a smack on the hand does not call for all that!


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## thismama

CPS does not automatically remove children, particularly not over a slap on the hand.


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## BoringTales

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angieluvsramon* 







: I feel the same way....some people are so quick to call the cops. It is not like she smacked her in the face, she tapped the baby's hand! Calling the cops in this situation is just a little extreme! I rarely come on this forum for the same reason!

me too...


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## angieluvsramon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
CPS does not automatically remove children, particularly not over a slap on the hand.

so what is the point of calling the police over this?


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## thismama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angieluvsramon* 
so what is the point of calling the police over this?

I did not say I would call the police, that was somebody else. I just said I think it's really interesting that we don't consider child assault worthy of a police call. I think about all the time cops and firetrucks spend rushing to false burglar alarms sounding on business, and I think our chidren's safety should be prioritized a little better.

CPS also does other interventions besides child removal, such as parenting classes etc.


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## wonderwahine

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angieluvsramon* 
so what is the point of calling the police over this?

to cause the family extreme stress over having cps in their lives........ i think its rediculious. I wouldnt call the cops or cps over a slap on the hand, and i would expect that noone called cps on me because of my nfl/ap parenting practices that some belive are not good for children.


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## angieluvsramon

everybody has their own parenting styles and nobody should be bashed or flamed over the way they parent. Nobody is perfect and we did not come with a parenting handbook. I am not saying it is ok and im not saying it is wrong, I am saying instead of trying to control the way people are with their children, give them resources and help them learn and see your point of view.
It might take some of us a while but Im sure those of us who have our head on straight will do what we think and hope is in the best interest of our child.


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## angieluvsramon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I did not say I would call the police, that was somebody else. I just said I think it's really interesting that we don't consider child assault worthy of a police call. I think about all the time cops and firetrucks spend rushing to false burglar alarms sounding on business, and I think our chidren's safety should be prioritized a little better.

CPS also does other interventions besides child removal, such as parenting classes etc.

I agree with this however what do you consider assaulting a child????? Children's safety should be prioritized but not when the case is as little as a slap on the hand. A slap in the face, yeah repeatedly spanking the child yeah, I thing worst case here is that the poor baby had hurt feelings not a black eye or broken hand.


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## mom2alicia

i don't know the answer to this either. when i witness corporal punishment, I just feel sick. I feel terrible for the child. The other issue for me is if my daughter is with me, I just hate for her to be exposed to such violence especially since it is a form of violence that isn't recognized as violence by most people, so most people are just standing there not reacting at all to what is happening as if it is perfectly fine for the parent to spank the child.


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## pumpkinyum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
to cause the family extreme stress over having cps in their lives........ i think its rediculious. I wouldnt call the cops or cps over a slap on the hand, and i would expect that noone called cps on me because of my nfl/ap parenting practices that some belive are not good for children.


I can't say "yeah that" strongly enough. MDC is so "cps paranoid" I can't believe someone would advocate calling the cops for a hand slap. What about those who get turned in for not vaccinating, or for unasssited childbirth. There are people out there who view this as abuse. There are posters on here who are paranoid about this stuff all the time. why advocate for a cps visit that can hurt a family? A slap on the hand DOES NOT a bad parent make.


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## thismama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angieluvsramon* 
I agree with this however what do you consider assaulting a child????? Children's safety should be prioritized but not when the case is as little as a slap on the hand. A slap in the face, yeah repeatedly spanking the child yeah, I thing worst case here is that the poor baby had hurt feelings not a black eye or broken hand.

If somebody slapped me, including on my hand, that is assaultive behaviour. You are quite right that it is worse to give somebody a black eye, but that doesn't mean slapping someone's hand is okay. I think it's interesting that our judgment of what constitutes harm is looser for children, and babies, than it is for adults. I think as regards physical assault, the standard should be exactly the same. Everyone has the right to dignity, bodily integrity, and freedom from intentional infliction of pain.


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## angieluvsramon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum* 
I can't say "yeah that" strongly enough. MDC is so "cps paranoid" I can't believe someone would advocate calling the cops for a hand slap. What about those who get turned in for not vaccinating, or for unasssited childbirth. There are people out there who view this as abuse. There are posters on here who are paranoid about this stuff all the time. why advocate for a cps visit that can hurt a family? A slap on the hand DOES NOT a bad parent make.

lemme tell you all something about cps... I was taken away when I was 12 for being molested and put in a group home whaer I was RAPED by one staff member and later ASSAULTED by another. I had bruises up and down my arms. cps is no joke!!! I have only reported 2 people to cps and it was because I suspected something was going on and being a teacher in a school I had to do it. I was right in both cases but it was the hardest thing I have ever done, and to see so many of these parents so willing to call cps so quick really scares me. You really have to get a good feel for a situation before you take the drastic steps of calling cps, because cps is alot of the time no better! When I was in the group home I met soo many people that did not belong there and it was because sombody called cps for something as little as a slap on the hand or a spank on the rear end. "assault" is what happened to me in the group home "assault" is not me spanking my child "assault" would be me beating my child.


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## angieluvsramon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
If somebody slapped me, including on my hand, that is assaultive behaviour. You are quite right that it is worse to give somebody a black eye, but that doesn't mean slapping someone's hand is okay. I think it's interesting that our judgment of what constitutes harm is looser for children, and babies, than it is for adults. I think as regards physical assault, the standard should be exactly the same. Everyone has the right to dignity, bodily integrity, and freedom from intentional infliction of pain.

So if your husband smacked your hand out of the cheese bowl you would call the cops??????? Or what about if he "tapped" your butt??? Im just trying to understand the assault part. I want to stress I dont think spanking is right...I just dont consider it as extreme as assault. I am making progress in not spanking my son, but not because I think it is assault, but because I see it hurts his feelings and I dont like to see that shocked look in his face. It makes me feel bad! and if it makes me feel bad I KNOW it makes him feel worse! I just think unless a child is being abused they should not have cps brought into their lives! WHat if it is not done to inflict pain but to get their attention. I never spanked my son hard enough to cause pain. I did it to get his attention. I do realize now that there are better ways to do this, but like I said in my earlier post sometimes it takes us a while before we learn how to parent our children the way we know best.


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## onelilguysmommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
No, you _choose_ not to do anything unless it is an all out beating.

no, i wouldnt call the cops, youre right, and my comment about having a migraine was i was in line all the way around the store the other day and by the time i got outside i couldnt see straight and just sat and tried to doze a few minutes (oh great, i could get locked up for that, too! sleeping in my truck!)
he wouldnt stop screaming sounding like i was trying to kill him!
and trying to wrestle me to get out of the cart...which led to more screaming.

and LEGALLY, there isnt anything to do over one smack in america unless you have court papers saying no punitive punishment. yeah, call the cops. okay, random people cant file assault charges for a child who is not their own. what does thqat do? nothing. maybe turn it over to cps. okay well, what does that do? nothing, or have the kid taken into a system where itrs ridiculously over taxed already. yeah THATS definitely whats better for a kid than getting a smack on the hand...and no im totalyl not saying a kid should be beat or whatever, but there are far worse things going on towards children than this


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## angelpie545

I wouldn't call the cops if I saw a parent spanking a child or smacking their hand. The reality is that even though some of us may consider that to be abusive, most parents who spank/smack aren't otherwise abusive. I grew up in a spanking home, but I was never abused and always very loved. My parents had their shortcomings like any, but they were wonderful people who cared so much for us. Also, spanking is legal in the US, although it is frowned upon by most child welfare advocates. I would rather a child stay with loving parents who spank than remove them and give them to strangers to raise.


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## angieluvsramon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelpie545* 
I wouldn't call the cops if I saw a parent spanking a child or smacking their hand. The reality is that even though some of us may consider that to be abusive, most parents who spank/smack aren't otherwise abusive. I grew up in a spanking home, but I was never abused and always very loved. My parents had their shortcomings like any, but they were wonderful people who cared so much for us. Also, spanking is legal in the US, although it is frowned upon by most child welfare advocates. I would rather a child stay with loving parents who spank than remove them and give them to strangers to raise.

I agree


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## funkygranolamama

i don't AGREE with hand smacking, but i think if you called cops they would laugh at the report. it's not right, you know, but even the public schools in my area have corporal punishment unless you request otherwise.


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## angieluvsramon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
i don't AGREE with hand smacking, but i think if you called cops they would laugh at the report. it's not right, you know, but even the public schools in my area have corporal punishment unless you request otherwise.

Wow the schools??? I dont agree with that!!!! Where do you live?


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## chfriend

Hmmm, trying to think this through. I would not personally call the cops in the situation described, but continuing my thinking process...

I can call the cops because my neighbor's party is too loud...but not if I see someone hit in public. That's interesting.


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## transylvania_mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dex_millie* 
I do plan on practicing it.

that's really sad. So you are PLANNING to look in your child's eyes and HIT him?

To the OP, I witnessed spanking in public today, of a mom who was pulling his 3 y/o's ear because the child was throwing a tantrum. The mom told me that probably the child was tired because he missed his nap and he just wanted attention. I tried to empathize with her and tell her that we all have this kind of moments, but she couldn't care less.
I just can't erase that memory from my mind, of the child screaming in pain and the mom making sure that the ear-pulling was as painful as it could be.


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## angieluvsramon

That is just soo sad


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## wanderinggypsy

I guess what I'm wondering after reading over all this is this: Is it appropriate and productive for us as informed people/parents to audit/judge/condemn the actions of those who are in all likelihood less informed than us?

How does casting aspersions and judgment on strangers make the world a better place? Unfortunately we really can't make everyone as perfect as we wish we were. There tends to be a lot in this life that we have to simply "let go".


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## transylvania_mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wanderinggypsy* 
I guess what I'm wondering after reading over all this is this: Is it appropriate and productive for us as informed people/parents to audit/judge/condemn the actions of those who are in all likelihood less informed than us?

How does casting aspersions and judgment on strangers make the world a better place? Unfortunately we really can't make everyone as perfect as we wish we were. There tends to be a lot in this life that we have to simply "let go".

Unfortunately, I think you are right. But I believe that the OP's question was: can we DO something about it?
Maybe it's a first step towards a positive change. In my country, when a man beats his wife nobody intervenes, because, well, it's none of their business. When the situation is normalized, people don't ask too many questions about it.


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## angieluvsramon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wanderinggypsy* 
I guess what I'm wondering after reading over all this is this: Is it appropriate and productive for us as informed people/parents to audit/judge/condemn the actions of those who are in all likelihood less informed than us?

How does casting aspersions and judgment on strangers make the world a better place? Unfortunately we really can't make everyone as perfect as we wish we were. There tends to be a lot in this life that we have to simply "let go".

I dont think it is productive at all. like I said before the only thing to do would be to give the less informed all the resources you can to help them be better people not only for their children but for themselves also


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## cottonwood

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
We would call the police for assault on an adult, why is assault on a child so much less important?
[...]I think it's interesting that our judgment of what constitutes harm is looser for children, and babies, than it is for adults. I think as regards physical assault, the standard should be exactly the same. Everyone has the right to dignity, bodily integrity, and freedom from intentional infliction of pain.

Nodding in agreement.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angieluvsramon*
Do you know how many times I have been cooking and my husband comes and tries to sneek a piece of food and I smacked his hand away???? what about when my husband smacks my butt?? Is that assault too???

You're kidding, right? I mean, are you really doing these things to cause pain and shame, for punitive reasons? Do you or your husband feel scared or emotionally hurt when these things are done to you? If so, then yes, that is abusive. If not, it is a completely different thing from spanking as a disiplinary tool.


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## angieluvsramon

nooo Im not kidding but Im not gonna get into this. I have explained my reasoning. I dont think spanking a child is the right thing to do, but I think those of you telling me it is ASSAULT are taking it to the extreme!


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## angelpie545

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom* 
that's really sad. So you are PLANNING to look in your child's eyes and HIT him?

To the OP, I witnessed spanking in public today, of a mom who was pulling his 3 y/o's ear because the child was throwing a tantrum. The mom told me that probably the child was tired because he missed his nap and he just wanted attention. I tried to empathize with her and tell her that we all have this kind of moments, but she couldn't care less.
I just can't erase that memory from my mind, of the child screaming in pain and the mom making sure that the ear-pulling was as painful as it could be.

Wait, so did the mom spank him or pull his ear? Because I *personally* would consider pulling on a child's ear for punishment as an abusive behavior. I'm not sure that it would be considered chidl abuse by the authorites however unless it left marks or an injury. My parents may have spanked and slapped us on occasion, but they NEVER did those kinds of things. IMO my mom practiced a lot of GD besides the spanking.


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## homeschoolingmama

I would run up to her and smack her on the bum and tell her not to hit.







:


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## pumpkinyum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolingmama* 
I would run up to her and smack her on the bum and tell her not to hit.







:


At which point she would probably turn around and smack the crap outta you. Not a good move.


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## Seie

How terrible.
Where I live it isnt legal to spank or beat or hit your children in any way, so I would be tempted to tell her that she was breaking the law - but in reality I would probably be so shaken up that I wouldnt know what to do.


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## peacelovingmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2alicia* 
when i witness corporal punishment, I just feel sick. I feel terrible for the child. The other issue for me is if my daughter is with me, I just hate for her to be exposed to such violence especially since it is a form of violence that isn't recognized as violence by most people, so most people are just standing there not reacting at all to what is happening as if it is perfectly fine for the parent to spank the child.

I agree. Violence against children is not only legal in our society, it is normalized. To me, that is heartbreaking and wrong.

Personally, I favor legislation protecting ALL family members from being hit. But I would not call CPS or the police in the situation witnessed by the OP. The police exist to enforce laws. Unfortunately, it is legal to hit small children and to hit with objects. The only law I am aware of on this topic actually affirmatively condones "reasonable physical force" in "disciplining" children. We don't even have the limitations that Canada has (no hitting children under 2 and over 12 and no use of objects) and we certainly don't have comprehensive protection for kids as exists in many countries (children have the right to not be hit, period). I have heard people say that spanking is illegal in the U.S. but this just isn't true. It's illegal in certain contexts (school in some states, daycare, etc.) but it generally is perfectly legal in the U.S. at this time.

So at this point in time, I think we are left with: 1) education to help people choose non-violent discipline and to stop hitting if they are; 2) activism/lobbying to make violence against children illegal (if you favor that,and I know that many people here do not); 2) offering assistance to the parent doing the hitting in a non-threatening, non-judgmental way; and 3) shielding our own kids from seeing violence and talking about why it is wrong. Some people will directly address the hitter in a confrontational manner but that is not my personal style.

Anyway, I just don't think we can have it both ways -- legalized hitting of kids but calling the police when we see people doing this. IN any event, I personally favor non-penal laws in this area, which is another topic. I recognize that there are degrees of abuse but I do agree with those who have opined that hitting a child (unless it's an accident or somehow in self-defense) is always an abusive act (not legally but definitely an abuse of power and a violation of the child).


----------



## thismama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wanderinggypsy* 
I guess what I'm wondering after reading over all this is this: Is it appropriate and productive for us as informed people/parents to audit/judge/condemn the actions of those who are in all likelihood less informed than us?

How does casting aspersions and judgment on strangers make the world a better place? Unfortunately we really can't make everyone as perfect as we wish we were. There tends to be a lot in this life that we have to simply "let go".

Would you say the same about a man hitting his wife in public?


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## homeschoolingmama

I was kidding







I was just showing how silly it is to hit someone for hitting. That is only what I would want to do







:


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## angieluvsramon

thismama said:


> Would you say the same about a man hitting his wife in public?[/QUOT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you cant change the world! She is trying to say we should not pass judgment on other people and sometimes there is just nothing we could do! As for if she saw a man hitting a woman in public that is against the law...Spanking your child is not against the law and in most cases not physically harmful, just hurts their feelings (which isnt any better) but that is reality. Unless sombody actually BEATS their kids


----------



## CherryBomb

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I did not say I would call the police, that was somebody else. *I just said I think it's really interesting that we don't consider child assault worthy of a police call.* I think about all the time cops and firetrucks spend rushing to false burglar alarms sounding on business, and I think our chidren's safety should be prioritized a little better.

CPS also does other interventions besides child removal, such as parenting classes etc.

ITA. Most people wouldn't hesitate to call the cops if a man smacked his girlfriend/wife (sorry, "tapped"














but everyone's willing to turn a blind eye and defend hitting children. I get that it's not illegal to spank, but even when parents are obviously crossing the line, people are still so hesitant to do something.

That said, a couple weeks ago I saw a mom hitting her little one, who couldn't have been more than 3, and I didn't say or do anything and I still feel bad about it







: I couldn't see exactly what was happening because they were in a booth, but I could her her hissing and smacking









Quote:

that's really sad. So you are PLANNING to look in your child's eyes and HIT him?
Very sad







: I admit I've spanked my older dd in the past, and I feel nothing but shame and guilt about it. I can't imagine actually planning to hit your kid


----------



## angieluvsramon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
ITA. Most people wouldn't hesitate to call the cops if a man smacked his girlfriend/wife (sorry, "tapped"














but everyone's willing to turn a blind eye and defend hitting children. I get that it's not illegal to spank, but even when parents are obviously crossing the line, people are still so hesitant to do something.

That said, a couple weeks ago I saw a mom hitting her little one, who couldn't have been more than 3, and I didn't say or do anything and I still feel bad about it







: I couldn't see exactly what was happening because they were in a booth, but I could her her hissing and smacking









Very sad







: I admit I've spanked my older dd in the past, and I feel nothing but shame and guilt about it. I can't imagine actually planning to hit your kid









so smacking a childs hand warrant's a call to the cops and/or cps????? Nobody is saying it is ok but unfortunatly that is the way some people choose to parent their children. As for you spanking your older child do you consider what you did to her assaulting her, how about abusing her?? What if sombody saw you and called cps?? would that be appropriate for the way you "assaulted" your child?????? Not trying to be rude I just hate spanking being refered to as assaulting your child.


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## Blooming

yuck. I'm sorry for that child.







:

I hope that mother gets help.


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Please be reminded that advocating or defending physical punishment is never allowed on the GD forum or on MDC (see user agreement).

I've read this whole thread, and I can't see where anyone here has *defended* *physical punishment*. If you're referring to the poster who shared how wonderful her parents were, _in spite of_ sometimes using physical punishment (and yes, I saw her post before she deleted parts of it), I can't see how *any* of that could be construed as *defending physical punishment*.

I think you can defend people without condoning every. single. thing they do. How can we call ourselves GD if we're not willing to extend the GD attitude beyond our own families, and share the compassion with all the other people who lack the resources we have?

If your older child hits your younger, do you automatically call CPS to get services for him? Would CPS be your first resort in getting help for your child or yourself? If not, then why treat a complete stranger as any less human?

In response to the people who don't think it was over-the-top to call police on a mom who smacked her toddler's hand, because wouldn't we do the same if it happened to an adult -- no, I WOULDN'T call police if I saw a man smack his wife on the hand (or a wife smack her husband on the hand). I'd figure that was their deal.

And the analogy that it's okay to call the cops if your neighbor has a loud party, so why not to call CPS -- well, I see a few holes in that. Not that I'd call the cops over a loud party: keeping up good relations with my neighbors means more to me than the convenience of a quiet night. If I was really bugged, I'd just go over and ask them to quiet down.

But here's the difference between the disturbing the peace accusation and the child abuse accusation: the latter has more potential to devastate the accused and his/her family.

While I realize thismama's right in saying that CPS provides other services besides child removal -- from my understanding these services are not always offered as a free choice. Even in cases where the services really *are* optional, and the parents really *don't* have to sign the careplan, some caseworkers aren't careful to make sure the parents know they have a right to refuse ... then once the plan is signed, the parents are stuck with having to comply.

CPS may seem like a smorgasbord of help to some parents -- but some would rather select their own buffet, so to speak. I can think of lots of other people I'd rather turn to for help and counseling, than a CPS worker.


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## captain crunchy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dex_millie* 
Call the police







: What the hell







: Fill abuse charges







:







:

************Don't think I was advocating or defending physical punishment but I will take this paragraph out, just giving an example of not to judge everyone who smack on the hand*************

*************I do plan on practicing it*. But some of yall act like all spankers is the same, and all are abusive. That is all some people knew how children are to be raised and some really believed in it.

That is not to say that I also don't get some good tips from here. I just believe that sometimes the word 'abusive, abusers' are used lightly.
I know I might get flames for this but I guess this time I had to say something. Not all smacker on the hand people are abusers.


(bolding mine)

Proudly proclaiming that you plan on hitting your child on a board which is adamantly against hitting children is advocacy.


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## angieluvsramon

nm


----------



## angieluvsramon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blooming* 
yuck. I'm sorry for that child.







:

I hope that mother gets help.

which mother??? who are you talking about???


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## l_olive

http://www.nospank.net/stang.htm

Quote:

An old civil rights slogan once advised, "Use your voice - silence is consent." This is very true when talking about a culturally accepted practice like spanking. It may be easier to keep silent, but when we do, hitters see that as consent to continue hitting their kids. So, the next time you are at a store, or a park, or a family reunion, and you see an adult assault a child, try one of these eleven suggestions. Let's not give consent to any more violence against children.


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
(bolding mine)

Proudly proclaiming that you plan on hitting your child on a board which is adamantly against hitting children is advocacy.

I can't believe the way you (and the other poster) are deliberately misconstruing this woman's post, which reads differently because she deleted parts so no one would think she was "defending physical punishment."

The poster in question plans to practice gentle discipline. Period.


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## captain crunchy

Quote:

# Intervene early. If you see a confrontation between parent and child escalating, step in. Parents may hit if they become frustrated with their child's behavior and feel pressure from onlookers to "make that kid behave." Your best bet is to try to validate the parent's frustration while normalizing the child's behavior. ("Looks like you're both having a long day. My little one used to get like that while we were holiday shopping.") If you know the parent, offer to watch the child for a few minutes while the parent regains emotional control.

This is the approach I usually take and have found it very effective.


----------



## captain crunchy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I can't believe the way you (and the other poster) are deliberately misconstruing this woman's post, which reads differently because she deleted parts so no one would think she was "defending physical punishment."

The poster in question plans to practice gentle discipline. Period.

How I am I deliberately misconstruing her post? She plans on smacking her children's hands. I don't consider that gentle discipline and I think you will find *most* people in this forum, whether on the more authoritative side of GD or on the more consensual side will agree.

Slapping someone's hands is physical punishment. Plain and simple and it is not advocated on MDC.


----------



## macca

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
i don't AGREE with hand smacking, but i think if you called cops they would laugh at the report.









:

That said, I hate seeing children get spanked in public. It's so sad


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## SublimeBirthGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *llamalluv* 
My biggest problem with the situation is that the toddler was *STANDING ON A CHAIR* while the mother just sat there. Did no one else catch that?!

Well if that's bad parenting I guess I should be arrested and have my kids put in foster care immediately, as they are both climbers and I let them climb on things all the time. You can regularly see my 14 month old dancing on the kitchen table.


----------



## wonderwahine

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
Well if that's bad parenting I guess I should be arrested and have my kids put in foster care immediately, as they are both climbers and I let them climb on things all the time. You can regularly see my 14 month old dancing on the kitchen table.









ds will climb chairs wherever we are, if hes not in danger or hurting someone..... who cares?


----------



## MtBikeLover

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Hitting a child is definitely an abusive act.

When I have seen it, I have said something to the parent, every time. It's not okay, and we need to not pretend it is.

I agree. I have only seen one child get spanked in public and I said something to her. I can't keep my mouth shut in situations like that. Spanking, slapping on the hand, any kind of hitting is abuse to me. I only wish our country would see it that way too.


----------



## SublimeBirthGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
If somebody slapped me, including on my hand, that is assaultive behaviour. You are quite right that it is worse to give somebody a black eye, but that doesn't mean slapping someone's hand is okay. I think it's interesting that our judgment of what constitutes harm is looser for children, and babies, than it is for adults. I think as regards physical assault, the standard should be exactly the same. Everyone has the right to dignity, bodily integrity, and freedom from intentional infliction of pain.

So if you saw an adult slap the back of another adult's hand, you'd call the police right away, then?


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## captain crunchy

I let dd climb chairs too --- maybe the post was pointing out the ridiculousness of being okay with your toddler standing on a chair, then hitting them for reaching toward a plant on said chair. In other words, why does reaching for a plant (I might be off on the exact reason for the hitting) warrant hitting, but you are fine and dandy with standing on chairs.... pointing out it didn't make sense or pointing out that if you didn't want your kid reaching for the plant, that may have begun by redirecting them from the chair (rather than mixed messages and hitting)

That is sort of how I read it but I may be wrong.


----------



## macca

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
Well if that's bad parenting I guess I should be arrested and have my kids put in foster care immediately, as they are both climbers and I let them climb on things all the time. You can regularly see my 14 month old dancing on the kitchen table.


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## pumpkinyum

You all let your kids climb on tables???


----------



## Blooming

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angieluvsramon* 
which mother??? who are you talking about???

the mother in the waiting room who hit her child.


----------



## captain crunchy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
So if you saw an adult slap the back of another adult's hand, you'd call the police right away, then?

If I ascertained that the adult in question was hurt physically or emotionally from the exchange and it was not invited, wanted, and the person who was hit on the hand felt intimidated, or scared yes.

People go around saying, oh it doesn't hurt the child!! Why do it then? I mean, I am not at all advocating hitting, just the opposite. People hit children to hurt them. End of story. To hurt them enough to send a message that "what they did" was "wrong" and to deter them from doing it again by way of fear of getting hit again, fear of love withdrawal, fear of disapproval etc... . If popping or tapping or spanking or slapping hands or whatever pretty package you want to wrap an act of violence in is done as a means of deterring *bad* behavior by way of pain or fear (which is all hitting is really), it is not gentle in my book and no amount of protest to the contrary will change that.


----------



## readytobedone

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angieluvsramon* 








 you cant change the world! She is trying to say we should not pass judgment on other people and sometimes there is just nothing we could do! As for if she saw a man hitting a woman in public that is against the law...Spanking your child is not against the law and in most cases not physically harmful, just hurts their feelings (which isnt any better) but that is reality. Unless sombody actually BEATS their kids

okay, but you are just proving a lot of people's points. hitting kids is not illegal, but it SHOULD be. what if the situation were reversed? kids were protected from hitting but women were not. then you'd have to say:

"hitting your wife is not against the law and in most cases is not physically harmful, just hurts their feelings (which isn't any better) but that is reality. unless somebody actually BEATS his wife"

sounds horrible, doesn't it? even if my DH hit me and it only hurt my feelings (as in no broken bones, no marks), most people would think he needs help. but a mama hitting her kid, that's just normal.

that is what people are saying is messed up. of course calling the cops on someone for a little smack on their kid seems weird, but that's because we are completely desensitized to this sort of subtle violence against kids.


----------



## theretohere

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I've read this whole thread, and I can't see where anyone here has *defended* *physical punishment*. If you're referring to the poster who shared how wonderful her parents were, _in spite of_ sometimes using physical punishment (and yes, I saw her post before she deleted parts of it), I can't see how *any* of that could be construed as *defending physical punishment*.

I think you can defend people without condoning every. single. thing they do. How can we call ourselves GD if we're not willing to extend the GD attitude beyond our own families, and share the compassion with all the other people who lack the resources we have?

If your older child hits your younger, do you automatically call CPS to get services for him? Would CPS be your first resort in getting help for your child or yourself? If not, then why treat a complete stranger as any less human?

In response to the people who don't think it was over-the-top to call police on a mom who smacked her toddler's hand, because wouldn't we do the same if it happened to an adult -- no, I WOULDN'T call police if I saw a man smack his wife on the hand (or a wife smack her husband on the hand). I'd figure that was their deal.

And the analogy that it's okay to call the cops if your neighbor has a loud party, so why not to call CPS -- well, I see a few holes in that. Not that I'd call the cops over a loud party: keeping up good relations with my neighbors means more to me than the convenience of a quiet night. If I was really bugged, I'd just go over and ask them to quiet down.

But here's the difference between the disturbing the peace accusation and the child abuse accusation: the latter has more potential to devastate the accused and his/her family.

While I realize thismama's right in saying that CPS provides other services besides child removal -- from my understanding these services are not always offered as a free choice. Even in cases where the services really *are* optional, and the parents really *don't* have to sign the careplan, some caseworkers aren't careful to make sure the parents know they have a right to refuse ... then once the plan is signed, the parents are stuck with having to comply.

CPS may seem like a smorgasbord of help to some parents -- but some would rather select their own buffet, so to speak. I can think of lots of other people I'd rather turn to for help and counseling, than a CPS worker.









:


----------



## kaylee18

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom* 

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dex_millie*
I do plan on practicing it.

that's really sad. So you are PLANNING to look in your child's eyes and HIT him?

No no no, she was referring to GD (prior to editing). She does plan to practice GD ("it"=GD, not hand slapping). Pronoun lacking antecedent.









What dex_millie was saying is that she plans to practice GD, but finds the GD forum members' judgment of others unpleasant, so that she often doesn't come here.


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## captain crunchy

Oh I thought she meant she planned on practicing hand slapping. That is how it reads to me. My apologies if I misunderstood her post. I stand by my feelings on hitting though, hand slapping or otherwise.


----------



## geek_the_girl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaylee18* 
but finds the GD forum members' judgment of others unpleasant, so that she often doesn't come here.

I find this ironic.


----------



## madskye

If I saw a child being spanked I would probably say to the parent:

"Hey! Do you need some help? You seem like you're losing control."


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## chfriend

I don't know how to do the multi-post thing...so here goes....

geekthegirl: I make reasonable judgments all the time. If the parents who hit their children feel I am judging them to be parents engaging in behavior is that is morally wrong and a bad way to act, I'm okay with that. They can disagree if they like. But it doesn't change the fact that hitting is wrong and bad.

the poster who asked about getting on tables: I set up our lives so my kids can climb. I replaced a coffee table with one more stable so dd1 could dance on it.









the poster who responded to my musing about calling the cops on a loud party. What I actually said was that I could call the cops if my neighbors had a loud party and no one would criticize me. It disturbs my peace significantly more to see a child at the doctors office hit in front of me and my small child. Yet, I would be encouraged not to call the police. It's an interesting comparison.


----------



## thismama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
So if you saw an adult slap the back of another adult's hand, you'd call the police right away, then?

Dude. I never said I would call the police. That is being misconstrued all over this thread although I already clarified that it was someone else who said they would call the police.

I would say something if a man slapped a woman's hand, in anger (not as a joke that was consensual etc). And I would call the police over probably anything more intensely assaultive than that.

I was simply saying that I think it's weird that we minimize assaulting children as no big deal, when the very same behaviour directed toward an adult would indeed be a big deal.

Hitting is abusive.


----------



## thismama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
okay, but you are just proving a lot of people's points. hitting kids is not illegal, but it SHOULD be. what if the situation were reversed? kids were protected from hitting but women were not. then you'd have to say:

"hitting your wife is not against the law and in most cases is not physically harmful, just hurts their feelings (which isn't any better) but that is reality. unless somebody actually BEATS his wife"

sounds horrible, doesn't it? even if my DH hit me and it only hurt my feelings (as in no broken bones, no marks), most people would think he needs help. but a mama hitting her kid, that's just normal.









:


----------



## babygrace

disclaimer: according to me, hitting a child is not acceptable behavior and the opinion expressed below is with regards to the OP's dilemma.

interesting to compare a loud party to someone spanking their child. a party is usually a planned event with someone organizing it with atleast some intent. spanking in public would differ from this in that people outside the situation do not know the context. in other words, we do not know if this is usually a loving mother who is in a bad place at that time, a mother with a difficult to manage child...though spanking is wrong and we instinctively want to react, some restraint is called for lest we are reaching to a wrong conclusion that the mother in question is an abuser. a trigger happy response such as calling the cops would assuage our feelings of outrage, but could have an adverse outcome for an otherwise innocent parent.


----------



## transylvania_mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Oh I thought she meant she planned on practicing hand slapping. That is how it reads to me. My apologies if I misunderstood her post. I stand by my feelings on hitting though, hand slapping or otherwise.

that's what I thought too.


----------



## Fuamami

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
The family court system has nothing to do with spanking. It addressed custody and divorce issues.

Well, actually, in many areas the family court DOES address all issues concerning children. Juvenile delinquency, abuse/neglect cases, foster care, etc. Sort of a one-stop shop idea, one family, one judge. I could go on and on about how and why this change came about, but I won't bore you with all the details! On with the discussion!


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## swampangel

The issue of violence is tricky. My biggest concern with saying something to someone who is spanking their child is that they would be pissed at me and feel the need to defend their parenting further...hence more hitting.

With domestic violence, a woman can get in far more trouble with the abuser if it comes out in public in some way. Women often have to plan very carefully and privately their plans to get help...otherwise, the violence gets worse. You can call the police if you see a woman being hit but often she will lie for fear of further violence. It's a very delicate and difficult situation.

To me, regardless of the law, violence is wrong. Against anyone. I'm not sure what the best thing to do is, honestly. Speaking up can make the abuser more angry. It is a long process to healing when you act out violently toward others.

Just thinking off the top of my head, but I would like to see more parenting education/information brought up and offered when people are pregnant. Along with all of the birthing/nursing/etc. classes, I'd like to see classes offered for parenting...and plans to keep people tied into those opportunities throughout their journeys in parenting. It would be great if it became a natural part of pediatrician visits. I think education is everything. When you know better, you often do better.

And of course, more and better mental health and social services...but don't get me started on that!


----------



## SublimeBirthGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum* 
You all let your kids climb on tables???

My kids love to climb. They're unlikely to get seriously hurt and I think it's a great way for them to explore their physical limits and gain confidence in themselves. I wouldn't let them climb out on a building ledge or something, but a table that's 2.5 feet off the floor? Eh.


----------



## SublimeBirthGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
If I ascertained that the adult in question was hurt physically or emotionally from the exchange and it was not invited, wanted, and the person who was hit on the hand felt intimidated, or scared yes.

People go around saying, oh it doesn't hurt the child!! Why do it then? I mean, I am not at all advocating hitting, just the opposite. People hit children to hurt them. End of story. To hurt them enough to send a message that "what they did" was "wrong" and to deter them from doing it again by way of fear of getting hit again, fear of love withdrawal, fear of disapproval etc... . If popping or tapping or spanking or slapping hands or whatever pretty package you want to wrap an act of violence in is done as a means of deterring *bad* behavior by way of pain or fear (which is all hitting is really), it is not gentle in my book and no amount of protest to the contrary will change that.

I never argued that slapping hands was gentle. I don't use physical punishments of any kind. I hate when people refuse to call spanking or slapping the backs of hands what it is: hitting (like earlier someone said this mother "tapped" her baby's hand-calling it "tapping" doesn't make it nicer; it's still hitting). I'm opposed to this and think it's both lazy parenting and disrespectful. I just also think that getting CPS involved for a slap on the hand is over the top. It could have been a moment of weakness-most of us have those as parents. Even if it's not, certainly getting CPS involved is not going to be helpful. They can barely handle the cases of ABUSE where children are injured. A slap on the hand sucks, I agree. But calling the cops? I just think that's ridiculous. Let's put the kid in foster care, why don't we?


----------



## ameliabedelia

I don't think it's fair to compare spanking children to hitting a spouse. I am very much against spanking and corporal punishment, however the relationship between parent and child is quite different from that between spouses.

For one thing, my spouse doesn't hit me, pull my hair, whine, pester me, throw tantrums, wake me up multiple times in the night, take toys away from other kids, hit other kids, behave in such a manner that I need to leave the grocery store, or the playgroup, run in the street, run away, ruin my DVD's, pull everything out of my drawers, interrupt me constantly, make messes, pee/poo his pants, disrupt services etc., etc.

None of that excuses hitting/spanking or makes it okay, however it does make the comparision of hitting a spouse to hitting a child really pointless, IMO. The parent/child relationship is really complex and while I am not responsible for my spouse's behavior, I AM for my child's. Not to mention, one can always walk away from one's spouse and take a breather, but you can't always do that with children. I mean, the mom in the doctor's office coudln't very well leave her children in the waiting room alone while she went in the bathroom to regroup.

Again, that doesn't excuse hitting...but I do think it makes statements like "call the police" totally inappropriate.

After all, it really isn't that hard to not hit your spouse. I mean, I think in any normal, healthy, relationship the temptation isn't even there. However, children by their very nature are much more difficult, and using GD really requires patience, thought, planning. It can be challenge, every single day.

Therefore, I think the first step to eliminating corporal punishment of children is acknoledging that children ARE difficult, that they WILL push our buttons, that things WILL be difficult. Just making comparisions to hitting a spouse isn't really helpful because my spouse doesn't push my buttons the way my children do.


----------



## chfriend

If I'm reading it right, people are responding to the "it's not illegal" contention with an example of how differently people feel they should respond when two adults carry that mess out in public. When someone bigger hits someone littler in public and they are adults, bystanders feel empowered to say something. When the bigger one is an adult and the littler one is a child, they don't feel they can/should say something because "it's legal."

Hitting is morally wrong regardless of the provocation, as I'm sure we agree. But the difference in our bystander response is hard to understand.


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## sebandg'smama

OP:
Years ago, before I had children and was very judgmental (as opposed to a bit judgmental that I am now







) I was at the supermarket checkout and witnessed a woman hitting and yelling at her child.
What did I do? I gave her the evil eye, glared at her as if that somehow would make her stop.
Someone more compassionate than I, went over, put a gentle hand on the mother to get her attention and spoke about how hard it is to shop with little ones some days. She then bent down to the child's level and spoke with him, basically entertained him while the mother proceeded with her groceries. I watched the tension and stress melt off of the mother as she gratefully gave the other woman a smile. The little boy had stopped crying as well.

I was humbled by that interaction and while I have yet to find myself in that situation again, but if I do, I hope that I will react like that kind woman did.


----------



## CherryBomb

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaylee18* 
No no no, she was referring to GD (prior to editing). She does plan to practice GD ("it"=GD, not hand slapping). Pronoun lacking antecedent.









What dex_millie was saying is that she plans to practice GD, but finds the GD forum members' judgment of others unpleasant, so that she often doesn't come here.

Oh whew!

Unfortunately plenty of people DO plan to use physical punishment even before they're pregnant


----------



## shayinme

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia* 
I don't think it's fair to compare spanking children to hitting a spouse. I am very much against spanking and corporal punishment, however the relationship between parent and child is quite different from that between spouses.

For one thing, my spouse doesn't hit me, pull my hair, whine, pester me, throw tantrums, wake me up multiple times in the night, take toys away from other kids, hit other kids, behave in such a manner that I need to leave the grocery store, or the playgroup, run in the street, run away, ruin my DVD's, pull everything out of my drawers, interrupt me constantly, make messes, pee/poo his pants, disrupt services etc., etc.

None of that excuses hitting/spanking or makes it okay, however it does make the comparision of hitting a spouse to hitting a child really pointless, IMO. The parent/child relationship is really complex and while I am not responsible for my spouse's behavior, I AM for my child's. Not to mention, one can always walk away from one's spouse and take a breather, but you can't always do that with children. I mean, the mom in the doctor's office coudln't very well leave her children in the waiting room alone while she went in the bathroom to regroup.

Again, that doesn't excuse hitting...but I do think it makes statements like "call the police" totally inappropriate.

After all, it really isn't that hard to not hit your spouse. I mean, I think in any normal, healthy, relationship the temptation isn't even there. However, children by their very nature are much more difficult, and using GD really requires patience, thought, planning. It can be challenge, every single day.

*Therefore, I think the first step to eliminating corporal punishment of children is acknoledging that children ARE difficult, that they WILL push our buttons, that things WILL be difficult.* Just making comparisions to hitting a spouse isn't really helpful because my spouse doesn't push my buttons the way my children do.









: As a former spanker, right now I am in a difficult patch with my 2 yo who has never been spanked and its a challenge because as someone who was spanked and spanked my eldest, despite all the rhetoric it takes lot more to work towards GD when you have a tantrumming 2 yo who is pushing every button. Up until a couple days ago, my dd was working my last nerve and it took every thing I have to not swat her. I have been praying, meditating and rereading books to get me through this patch. So in general I stay out of these discussions sinnce I am still a GD newbie but the comparisons to hitting a spouse and a kid always rub me the wrong way for the exact reasons I quoted.

I feel like the GD advocates would do more good if there was acknowledgement that this path is hard as hell at times.. I think its what makes folks feel bad when they have the kid who seems out of control despite the parents having a full GD toolbox.

As to the original OP, I would like to think if I saw a kid being spanked that I would say something or try to assist in some way....

Shay


----------



## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Oh I thought she meant she planned on practicing hand slapping. That is how it reads to me. My apologies if I misunderstood her post. I stand by my feelings on hitting though, hand slapping or otherwise.

I think when you posted your warning about not violating the UA by "defending physical punishment," the poster in question thought this was directed at her, and went back and hastily deleted some of the loving things she'd said about her dad, who happened to also sometimes use physical punishment.

After the deletions, some things were gone that might have made it more clear she was planning to practice GD, not hand-slapping. I think she was trying just a little too hard to comply with you, and ended up offending you even worse.









I saw the original post, and certainly didn't see anything that sounded like she was "defending physical punishment" -- she only seemed to be saying that some people are raised to believe this is necessary, but still may be wonderful parents otherwise.

I'm still not sure what you meant when you warned people it wasn't okay to defend physical punishment -- because from all the posts I've read, I haven't heard anyone say it was okay in any way, shape, or form. Maybe you felt compelled to warn everyone in advance? Just in case someone had a thought of defending it?


----------



## That Is Nice

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum* 
I wouldn't have done anything but just get dd away from the situation. If the mother was beating the child, then I would tell someone at the store, such as a manager.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
I'm scared to say anything to the parents about spanking for fear of them taking their anger toward me out on their child. I agree that I would tell store management and police if I saw beating.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *baileyandmikey* 
i hate it when i see a mom have an outburst and then start smaking her child, i feel bad, but it is not my place to say anything.









:


----------



## chfriend

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
I feel like the GD advocates would do more good if there was acknowledgement that this path is hard as hell at times.. I think its what makes folks feel bad when they have the kid who seems out of control despite the parents having a full GD toolbox.

I think any relationship that is life long is hard as hell at times. I think we should acknowledge that. I'm not convinced that GD is ultimately harder than non-GD, but that in the moment it can really feel like it would be temporarily easier.


----------



## peacelovingmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia* 

....
After all, it really isn't that hard to not hit your spouse. I mean, I think in any normal, healthy, relationship the temptation isn't even there. However, children by their very nature are much more difficult, and using GD really requires patience, thought, planning. It can be challenge, every single day.


One of the reasons it is not very hard to not hit our partners is because most of us did not grow up witnesseing that behavior being modeled. And unlike hitting kids, it is no longer legal or socially acceptable. Those who did grow up with adults hitting adults often find it incredibly hard not to hit their partner. Thus, the cycle of violence.

Those of us who have grown up being hit often DO find it very hard not to hit kids. And those of us who grew up NOT being hit generally do not. Research bears this out and, as a person who never has been hit, I can tell you that the temptation to lash out violently is not there for me. I have a spirited son and I have made lots of parenting mistakes (many of them modeled for me as a child) but I have never even come close to hitting him.

I agree that rearing children can be extremely challenging. But to me, the way to eliminate the temptation to resort to violence is not to downplay it as if its more understandable because kids push our buttons. After all, men who beat women often argue that they were overwhelmed with temptation when she cheated on him or betrayed him romantically, etc. Also very sensitive buttons to push. I think the way to lessen and ultimately eliminate that temptation is to protect kids with legislation (educational and non-penal as in Sweden).

In Sweden, for example, spanking used to be a norm as it was here. I'm sure that parents were similarly tempted to hit, and did hit. When hitting was made illegal in 1979, the majority of the population still supported hitting kids. Now, generations later, that just isn't the case. Entire generations have grown up not being hit and learning that hitting kids, like other domestic violence, is not acceptable. Now, polls show that the vast majority of Swedes find hitting kids entirely unacceptable.

So while the analogy between hitting adults and hitting kids is not exact, I do think it accuratley illustrates that hitting -- and thus the temptation to hit-- can become normalized (as hitting women used to be in our country). And it can also become illegal and de-normalized. Hitting adults and hitting kids both involve the cycle of violence -- if one has been hit, the temptation to hit is much more likely to be there.


----------



## ameliabedelia

Quote:

Those of us who have grown up being hit often DO find it very hard not to hit kids. And those of us who grew up NOT being hit generally do not. Research bears this out and, as a person who never has been hit, I can tell you that the temptation to lash out violently is not there for me. I have a spirited son and I have made lots of parenting mistakes (many of them modeled for me as a child) but I have never even come close to hitting him.

I agree that rearing children can be extremely challenging. But to me, the way to eliminate the temptation to resort to violence is not to downplay it as if its more understandable because kids push our buttons. After all, men who beat women often argue that they were overwhelmed with temptation when she cheated on him or betrayed him romantically, etc. Also very sensitive buttons to push. I think the way to lessen and ultimately eliminate that temptation is to protect kids with legislation (educational and non-penal as in Sweden).

In Sweden, for example, spanking used to be a norm as it was here. I'm sure that parents were similarly tempted to hit, and did hit. When hitting was made illegal in 1979, the majority of the population still supported hitting kids. Now, generations later, that just isn't the case. Entire generations have grown up not being hit and learning that hitting kids, like other domestic violence, is not acceptable. Now, polls show that the vast majority of Swedes find hitting kids entirely unacceptable.

I was not hit as a child, yet I still feel the urge to lash out at times. I don't do it, yet the urge is definitely there.

Also, I am sure if you polled everyone on this board, the vast, vast, majority of people would say that they believe hitting children is unacceptable. I also think that a large majority woudl say that at one time or another they have felt the urge to hit or been tempeted to lash out.

Believing hitting is unacceptable is not related to whether or not one feels the urge to do so and has to work against that.

It's not about downplaying violence, it is about understanding and empathy for the difficult task of parenting. After all, part of teaching our children involves empathy and compassion, why not give the same empathy and compassion towards other parents?? Education is obviously very important, however part of any education in discipline reform woudl HAVE to acknowledge the difficulty in parenting to be successful.

Obviously, making spanking unacceptable in our society would go a long way towards eliminating it. There is no question of that.


----------



## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
...I'd like to see classes offered for parenting...and plans to keep people tied into those opportunities throughout their journeys in parenting.

When you talk about keeping people "tied into those opportunities" -- you're not advocating anything mandatory, are you? I'm all for offering opportunities to new, expectant, and all parents who want to utilize them: I just wouldn't want to see anything forced on people.


----------



## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia* 
It's not about downplaying violence, it is about understanding and empathy for the difficult task of parenting. After all, part of teaching our children involves empathy and compassion, why not give the same empathy and compassion towards other parents?? Education is obviously very important, however part of any education in discipline reform woudl HAVE to acknowledge the difficulty in parenting to be successful.

I agree. While I see some value in analogies (i.e. you don't hit your spouse, why hit your child?) -- the value in the analogies is in persuading people who think it's okay to hit children, to re-think their views.

It's not helpful at all, though, to pretend that the parent-child relationship is identical to our relationships with other adults -- which we can pretty much take a break from if we're feeling stressed by relating to the other adults.

I agree with peacelovingmama that children who aren't raised with corporal punishment (provided that they ARE still getting attentive, involved parenting and not just left to navigate life all on their own) are less likely to feel tempted to hit. For one thing, they've grown up seeing all kinds of different, nonviolent ways to handle various situations and emotions.

For some of us, our first exposure to the idea that spanking is wrong, triggered tons of questions along the lines of, "Well, what DO you do, then?" That's what we grew up with, it's what we thought "worked." A parent who was never spanked herself (but nevertheless WAS parented and not just turned loose), already has a great headstart; she's already past the "what DO you do, then?" hurdle.

For many parents, it's not enough to just persuade them through analogies that spanking's wrong, "'cause you wouldn't do it to your husband or that annoying neighbor." Some parents aren't ready to even CONSIDER giving up what they see as "tried and true" parenting methods, unless they feel some assurance that there's something else that works -- that they're not just subjecting their kids to "experimental" techniques that are going to ruin their lives.

So I personally find it more useful to skip the (often insulting) analogies -- and show by example (and explanation) that when we treat our children like the people they really are -- people who really _want_ to be fully integrated, helpful members of the family and community, but just need some help learning to deal with difficult emotions and situations -- it works. They grow into responsible, caring, and empathetic individuals.

The more real life examples we're able to provide, the more parents will be willing to let go of the old assumptions and take the Gentle Discipline plunge.


----------



## jenniepaige

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angieluvsramon* 
lemme tell you all something about cps... I was taken away when I was 12 for being molested and put in a group home whaer I was RAPED by one staff member and later ASSAULTED by another. I had bruises up and down my arms. cps is no joke!!! I have only reported 2 people to cps and it was because I suspected something was going on and being a teacher in a school I had to do it. I was right in both cases but it was the hardest thing I have ever done, and to see so many of these parents so willing to call cps so quick really scares me. You really have to get a good feel for a situation before you take the drastic steps of calling cps, because cps is alot of the time no better! When I was in the group home I met soo many people that did not belong there and it was because sombody called cps for something as little as a slap on the hand or a spank on the rear end. "assault" is what happened to me in the group home "assault" is not me spanking my child "assault" would be me beating my child.


This is very well said and well put. I have a friend of the family who is now 40 years old and STILL dealing with the abusive and rape she had to go through for YEARS being under the care of the state. Starting at like age 7. Her home life wasn't so great either obviously but it didn't hold a candle to what she went though there. A slap on the hand? Please. A beat on the face-yes.


----------



## jenniepaige

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geek_the_girl* 
I find this ironic.


I don't. Some people just don't need to get all uppity out things like hand slapping. There are also a lot of self righteous back and forths too. It's the same thing as avoiding an argument. Who needs that extra stress or guilt in there lives. not me, and most likely not her.


----------



## macca

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum* 
You all let your kids climb on tables???

For a while, DD's favorite place to look at books, draw and watch TV was sitting on the coffee table. Who understands kids?!







:

She did climb on the kitchen table a couple of times under supervision, although it's not something I actively encouraged.


----------



## swampangel

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
If I'm reading it right, people are responding to the "it's not illegal" contention with an example of how differently people feel they should respond when two adults carry that mess out in public. When someone bigger hits someone littler in public and they are adults, bystanders feel empowered to say something. When the bigger one is an adult and the littler one is a child, they don't feel they can/should say something because "it's legal."

Hitting is morally wrong regardless of the provocation, as I'm sure we agree. But the difference in our bystander response is hard to understand.

Yes, hitting is morally wrong. But how we handle that as bystanders can make it better perhaps or make it worse. That is a reality. I think making a sweeping statement with judgment toward someone who is clearly struggling and stressed probably isn't going to change their minds. I think intention of the bystander is really important. Empathy goes a long, long way...as we see with our children.

On this forum, we're often talking about dynamics and how punitive responses generally aren't effective. Why would that be different when we're communicating with a stranger? This is what confuses me. I think it is a serious issue and I think my response would depend on the particular situation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sebandg'smama* 
OP:
Years ago, before I had children and was very judgmental (as opposed to a bit judgmental that I am now







) I was at the supermarket checkout and witnessed a woman hitting and yelling at her child.
What did I do? I gave her the evil eye, glared at her as if that somehow would make her stop.
Someone more compassionate than I, went over, put a gentle hand on the mother to get her attention and spoke about how hard it is to shop with little ones some days. She then bent down to the child's level and spoke with him, basically entertained him while the mother proceeded with her groceries. I watched the tension and stress melt off of the mother as she gratefully gave the other woman a smile. The little boy had stopped crying as well.

I was humbled by that interaction and while I have yet to find myself in that situation again, but if I do, I hope that I will react like that kind woman did.

Thanks for sharing this. A friend of mine did something similar with a woman who had two screaming children in a store. The mother wasn't hurting them but was clearly frazzled. My friend said as she saw her leaving in the parking log, "You're a great mom and you WILL get through this!". The woman's face relaxed and it was clear that just being validated by another mother went a long way.


----------



## *LoveBugMama*

I would most definitely say something. I would also call the cops. No doubt.

Luckily, I live in a country where hitting a child is forbidden by law.

To hit, spank, tap, smack or whatever word you use, a child is wrong. It`s wrong, wrong, wrong. I don`t care what the reason is. It is still wrong. And it is abusive. There is no difference between hitting an adult and hitting a child. (Well, there is. It`s even worse to hit a child.)

I will never, ever get how anyone can feel that hitting a child is the parents right, or their business. Hitting a child is everyones business. Hitting is abuse.

Oooh, and one more thing: he fact that I would say and do something, doesn`t mean that I would judge, yell or belittle the mother. It just means that I would NOT just walk away.


----------



## peacelovingmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia* 
...

Believing hitting is unacceptable is not related to whether or not one feels the urge to do so and has to work against that.

It's not about downplaying violence, it is about understanding and empathy for the difficult task of parenting. After all, part of teaching our children involves empathy and compassion, why not give the same empathy and compassion towards other parents?? Education is obviously very important, however part of any education in discipline reform woudl HAVE to acknowledge the difficulty in parenting to be successful.

Obviously, making spanking unacceptable in our society would go a long way towards eliminating it. There is no question of that.

Just to clarify -- I didn't mean that simply believing that hitting children is unacceptable eradicates any urge one may experience to hit. Clearly there are many wonderful mamas here who struggle with the urge/temptation to hit and they know that hitting is unacceptable. I do think this is at least partially a result of living in a culture that does NOT find hitting kids unacceptable.

And I don't compare hitting kids to other domestic violence in order to offend or hurt those who are struggling with this urge. In fact, I have tremendous admiration for those who grew up being hit and who are able to interrupt that cycle -- regardless of whether they are 100% successful. We all have our parenting struggles and this is a hard cycle to break. Parents who are able to stop hitting -- or even hit less than they were hit -- have my support and admiraton. Adults who grew up witnessing adult/adult domestic violence and who are able to break that cycle also have my empathy, respect and admiration.

I make that comparison to illustrate my belief that hitting children should not be legal. So your point that parenting is difficult and parents need empathy and support -- I fully agree with this. And parents who hit should receive support, education, whatever they need to help them stop.

But saying that kids push more buttons than adult partners in a discussion of violence against children sets off alarms for me. It used to be legal for men to hit their wives. During that time, I can imagine that there were many behaviors that a man might see as provoking hitting a woman. After all, romantic relationships have the potential for passions that differ from, but rival, the parent/child relationship in intensity.

So while I concur that the parent/child relationship can be very challenging -- as can adult relationships -- I just don't think that reality needs to impact whether or not violence in that relationship is legal. If our culture were less accepting of violence against children and it was not legal to hit them, I do think that future generations would struggle less and less with the urge to resort to violence. After all, people who aren't hit are much less likely to hit. Perhaps someone who grew up in a country with zero tolerance for violence against children could address this?

ETA: I was also reacting to your statement that it is "easy" not to hit one's adult partner but not so easy not to hit kids. I bet it was harder to resist an urge to hit one's wife when that behavior was legal and socially acceptable. Now that it's been illegal and socially unacceptable for many generations, I think that urge diminishes. The same thing would happen, I'd bet my bottom dollar, if we offered the same protection to kids and experienced a cultural shift such that hitting kids was as socially unacceptable as hitting women. I wonder if parents in places like Sweden are as tempted to hit their kids as parents here -- even MDC mamas -- are...


----------



## pumpkinyum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *macca* 
For a while, DD's favorite place to look at books, draw and watch TV was sitting on the coffee table. Who understands kids?!







:

She did climb on the kitchen table a couple of times under supervision, although it's not something I actively encouraged.


Sitting on a coffee table, I can see, but dancing around on a kitchen table? that's dangerous and neglectful, to me.

But I certainly wouldn't call the cops because of it, becaseu we all have such different ways of parenting, and it's not really any of my business.


----------



## TheLuckiestEllie

OP here.

Wow, I haven't had the chance to log back in since I posted the original post, and I had no idea I'd create this many responses! It's good though, it's given me a lot to think about.

A few thoughts...No, I didn't know the reason the kid was being spanked and yelled at, and maybe the mom was just having a horrible day, but I still think it was wrong. I wish I had said something, and from now on if I witness something like that, I will. Even if it is legal, it is morally wrong, so I should have stepped in. I will try to do so compassionately and non-judgmentally so I don't put-off the mom and embarrass her and the child.

(Have to run for now, I'll try to come back later with more thoughts. Thanks for everyone's input!)


----------



## peacelovingmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

So I personally find it more useful to skip the (often insulting) analogies -- and show by example (and explanation) that when we treat our children like the people they really are -- people who really _want_ to be fully integrated, helpful members of the family and community, but just need some help learning to deal with difficult emotions and situations -- it works. They grow into responsible, caring, and empathetic individuals.

The more real life examples we're able to provide, the more parents will be willing to let go of the old assumptions and take the Gentle Discipline plunge.

I just want to say that I do agree with you in that using certain analogies is not going to be helpful to mamas here who already are convinced that hitting kids is wrong, and who are searching for ways to stop and for alternatives. A recent thread was really illustrative of this!

I do think analogies can be useful in supporting the argument that hitting kids should be illegal though. And I know from past discussions that I am in the minority on that, even at MDC.

I used the analogy in this thread because some posters said that they would call the police in reaction to the OP. But hitting kids is perfectly legal here, so unfortunately that is not an appropriate response (since the police exist to enforce laws, not to change the laws). Anyway, that is how I came to discuss my belief that hitting kids SHOULD be illegal (and brought in the analogies to support that belief).

Personally, I would intervene (if at all) in a supportive and compassionate manner if I witnessed a child being hit in the U.S. I'd consider involving authorities if I witnessed a child being hit in one of the countries that already has laws on the books to protect kids.

So I use the domestic violence analogy in that context but I certainly do recognize that there are amazing, loving mamas here who need more than arguments against hitting to stop. I hope that this forum helps meet that need for them. It certainly has helped me improve my parenting.


----------



## SublimeBirthGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum* 
Sitting on a coffee table, I can see, but dancing around on a kitchen table? that's dangerous and neglectful, to me.

But I certainly wouldn't call the cops because of it, becaseu we all have such different ways of parenting, and it's not really any of my business.

Neglectful, that's me. Perhaps my kids are more "spirited" than yours. They're both climbers. Both very physically adept. That means that sometimes they get bumps and scrapes. But usually, they don't. It's pretty impressive. I'm a big believer in using our instinctive wisdom about what our bodies are capable of. I have found my little ones find their own limits much more easily than I, as an outsider, could find them. I feel it would damage them to make them believe they are capable of less than they are because their monkey-ish tendencies make ME nervous. My nerves shouldn't be their problem.


----------



## madskye

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
Neglectful, that's me. Perhaps my kids are more "spirited" than yours.

Maybe you just have a bigger kitchen table!


----------



## elizawill

ugh. threads like this remind me why i don't come to this forum anymore.


----------



## peacelovingmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
ugh. threads like this remind me why i don't come to this forum anymore.

It would be helpful if you explained what that means. So many different opinions have been expressed in this thread that I don't know what you mean -- are you upset that more people wouldn't speak out against violence? Are you bothered that people would empathize with people who hit kids?

If you hang out here long enough, I think you'll see that those who post here care deeply about children and have some pretty good advice to boot! Hope you come back!


----------



## captain crunchy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
Neglectful, that's me. Perhaps my kids are more "spirited" than yours. They're both climbers. Both very physically adept. That means that sometimes they get bumps and scrapes. But usually, they don't. It's pretty impressive. I'm a big believer in using our instinctive wisdom about what our bodies are capable of. I have found my little ones find their own limits much more easily than I, as an outsider, could find them. I feel it would damage them to make them believe they are capable of less than they are because their monkey-ish tendencies make ME nervous. My nerves shouldn't be their problem.











This is my kid

Note: not actually my child, but something my child would do and is capable of.


----------



## Tofu the Geek

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum* 
I wouldn't have done anything but just get dd away from the situation. If the mother was beating the child, then I would tell someone at the store, such as a manager.

So, if spanking isn't beating, what is it? And if it isn't beating, where is the line that turns it from NOT beating, into beating?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum* 
Honestly, hearing screaming and hurtful words upsets me more than seeing a child get spanked.

Both emotional and physical abuse bother me, neither any less than the other.


----------



## readytobedone

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
But saying that kids push more buttons than adult partners in a discussion of violence against children sets off alarms for me. It used to be legal for men to hit their wives. During that time, I can imagine that there were many behaviors that a man might see as provoking hitting a woman. After all, romantic relationships have the potential for passions that differ from, but rival, the parent/child relationship in intensity.

So while I concur that the parent/child relationship can be very challenging -- as can adult relationships -- I just don't think that reality needs to impact whether or not violence in that relationship is legal. If our culture were less accepting of violence against children and it was not legal to hit them, I do think that future generations would struggle less and less with the urge to resort to violence. After all, people who aren't hit are much less likely to hit. Perhaps someone who grew up in a country with zero tolerance for violence against children could address this?

ETA: I was also reacting to your statement that it is "easy" not to hit one's adult partner but not so easy not to hit kids. I bet it was harder to resist an urge to hit one's wife when that behavior was legal and socially acceptable. Now that it's been illegal and socially unacceptable for many generations, I think that urge diminishes. The same thing would happen, I'd bet my bottom dollar, if we offered the same protection to kids and experienced a cultural shift such that hitting kids was as socially unacceptable as hitting women. I wonder if parents in places like Sweden are as tempted to hit their kids as parents here -- even MDC mamas -- are...

yeah that to all of this.

and FWIW i don't necessarily think it's easier not to hit my partner than it would be a kid. he's kind of annoying sometimes, and sometimes i do want to hit him
















but i know he can fight back, and i know he could impose consequences for my actions (not necessarily hitting back, but setting boundaries with me and asserting that's not to happen again). that's another thing that makes kids easy targets--they don't usually fight back; they don't know to, and they're littler than you. sad but true.


----------



## swampangel

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
When you talk about keeping people "tied into those opportunities" -- you're not advocating anything mandatory, are you? I'm all for offering opportunities to new, expectant, and all parents who want to utilize them: I just wouldn't want to see anything forced on people.

I'm not advocating anything mandatory. I'm simply suggesting that if there were most support for parents, it would be less stigmatized to get help and more people would seek it. If it were more mainstream or normalized (like taking birthing classes or whatever) perhaps more people would be receiving information that would help them parent in more gentle ways.


----------



## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
I'm not advocating anything mandatory. I'm simply suggesting that if there were most support for parents, it would be less stigmatized to get help and more people would seek it. If it were more mainstream or normalized (like taking birthing classes or whatever) perhaps more people would be receiving information that would help them parent in more gentle ways.

Sounds good to me!


----------



## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
ugh. threads like this remind me why i don't come to this forum anymore.

Hmm. Threads like this are what make this forum so interesting to me. We're all different, and have different preferences -- to the point where my fun is someone else's "Ugh," and vice-versa.

If you don't enjoy heated discussions where people sometimes passionately disagree, there are lots of threads like "Something wonderful that happened today," that don't seem likely to generate as much disagreement.

No reason to stay away from the forum, IMO. In my case, I tend to stay away from the "something wonderful" threads simply because they're not as likely to be interesting _to me_. It just doesn't seem too hard to me read the title of a thread, and figure out if it's my type of thread or not.

Of course, sometimes titles can be misleading -- and I'm sure I've missed some interesting discussions just because the thread had words like "wonderful" or "This made me smile" in the title.


----------



## SublimeBirthGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 









This is my kid

Note: not actually my child, but something my child would do and is capable of.

That is HILARIOUS! Even mine aren't that bad (not yet anyway)! I have caught my 3.5 year old trying to climb up the fridge though...LOL


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## funkygranolamama

I hate to even say it because people here already are sterotyped so badly, but I live in south Alabama. My kids are hsed.

***Forgot to quote! Someone asked me where I was from when I mentioned that corporal punishment is still used in our public schools, unless you sign a waiver saying you won't allow it.


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## funkygranolamama

I feel compelled to find a solution to every problem. I think that's a bit of an issue, but anyway. Wouldn't it be nice if someone printed little flyers (like those hellfire and brimstone some religion passes out), but instead make it an informational piece about why hitting children is not effective? I might just do that....

It's terrible that I see abuse enough that I feel compelled to print flyers. To avoid any flames, what I see is typically not the smacking of hands. The kids would probably be grateful for that.


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## jenniepaige

Funny, I don't think I've ever actually seen it. People are pretty careful about around here I guess. I might have once like a LONG time ago.


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## medicmama

OK, so I didn't mean to hyjack this thread. Sorry!

( I left a bit of the info out trying to not make it long)

My point was That mom not just smacked her hand but all out full force went at her and knocked her off the chair onto the floor. Then was screaming at her to get up. I don't know what she was saying she was switching languages on me and I couldn't keep up.

Here's my thought and it's only what was in my mind at the time. If this happened in public ,What happens at home. The baby was no more that 2-ish.

I understand the whole at whitts end thing I have been there many itmes. Have gotton many behavioral slapps/hitting/beatings myself. I just don't don't hit my kids.

This kid could have been easly told easy baby lets not hurt the tree. Not slapped off a chair!


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## sharon71

The last time I saw a child get a public spanking I did confront the parent.

background I was shopping with my now 2 yr old at Wal-mart a little boy about 3 was wondering around lost in the infant department,I alerted an employee and we started looking for his parent. We walked around in the area looking finally a woman I saw a women calling "Aaron" Aaron" she spotted us came over took her child by the arm swung him up into the shopping cart and started smacking his bare legs over and over.I saw red and told her what she was doing was inappropriate and uncalled for. She told me in broken english "Who was I to tell her what to do" The employee who helped look pulled me away I was seriously in tears.


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## captain crunchy

Quote:

She told me in *broken english* "Who was I to tell her what to do"
I am glad you spoke up







but I was wondering if that bit was pertinent to the story. People who speak perfect English hit their kids too!


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## sharon71

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I am glad you spoke up







but I was wondering if that bit was pertinent to the story. People who speak perfect English hit their kids too!

Oh I agree. I should have clarified better she was yelling at me in broken English. She said "who you tell me how to treat my son? I his mother I hit him if i want too."


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## medicmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 









This is my kid

Note: not actually my child, but something my child would do and is capable of.









: I don't think I'd let my kids do that. Nor would I let them climb on the tables. (we don't have a coffee table) I would let them and help them climb things outside.


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## sharon71

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 









This is my kid

Note: not actually my child, but something my child would do and is capable of.

Here is a couple videos of my DD climbing.
http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...1624310021.flv
http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...1624105093.flv
http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...1624208261.flv
sitting on the table.
http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...ent=IMG006.jpg
http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...ent=IMG005.jpg


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## Tinker

Quote:


Originally Posted by *medicmama* 
I saw a mom smack a baby's hand at our pedi's office. My dd was in the sling touching the tree leaves and giggling. The other toddler was standing on a chair wanted to touch too. She grabed the leaves and pulled down the branches,and mom smacks her and yells don't touch! Baby cry's . My super sensitive 6 y/o yells ( at the top of his lungs ) at the mom "Don't hit her,she's only a baby!" ** Office worker calls doc and doc files abuse charges. **

Mom looks at me and tells me to mind my own unruly kid. I simply said touch her again I'm calling the police.

I was wondering how that all turned out.


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## WuWei

Here is an article *"What should I do when I see someone hitting their kid?"* http://www.nospank.net/stang.htm

I try to offer empathy for both parent and child, and in conversation suggest "a couple of books that really helped to create cooperation in our family were "Kids, Parents and Power Struggles" and "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen". Sometimes, just redirecting the adult to having an adult conversation changes the energy, because they no longer feel isolated and socially challenged by the child's behavior. Out of probably 20-25 times that I have initiated contact in a heated parental exchange, only once did I encounter an unwelcomed response. I just listened and was sad and cried later. But, I had spoken up for the child's experience, which I trust at least validated the child's feelings.

The unwelcome incident was when a man slapped a child (about 5-7 years old) across the face while standing in line at the CVS. I immediately spoke up and said "Please don't hit her. Hitting hurts." He declared that "as long as I don't leave a bruise, I can punish her as much as I want". I didn't know what to say further, I felt horrible for the child, but knew legally he was "right". I felt very intimidated by his stance and didn't challenge him. It was a very helpless feeling. (I was alone.) I sorta feel that I would have felt stronger if ds had been with me. Because I would have been concerned about his experience of witnessing this. *I* felt like a child being reprimanded, interestingly. With ds, I feel much more Mama Bear, I guess. I wish I had spoken about how I had felt as a child when I was punished, but I really felt mentally/emotionally threatened by his stature, voice and body language.

EVERYONE has *thanked me* for "helping" prior to this, when the family was obviously overwhelmed and feeling out of control, even those who had been threatening, or had just hit, their children in public. But, I listen to folks nearby, if I hear things escalating in a store, I can intervene. I've walked up to folks and "commiserated" and offered the "helpful book suggestions" on many occasions. I have a forte for intervening in these types of situations. I do it all the time. LOL It gets easier with practice and with no mal-intent.

My sense about the physical "discipline" that I experienced as a child, was that MY perception was validated (finally!) somewhere around 4th grade when an outside *Adult!* spoke up against hitting children. Prior to that time, my parent's opinion and voice were strongest in my mind about me being hit. So, the emotional manipulation of being told "you caused my anger", "you deserve to be punished", "it's your fault", etc lost some of its power because someone validated MY experience. I certainly am concerned that the subsequent physical assault by a parent may be worse if another adult intervenes publicly. But I believe the emotional abuse of a child being told you "deserve" to be hit, lasts longer than the physical impact.

So, I choose to speak up. My goal is to neutralize the anger, not confront it. And I wish to share tools when someone is open to it. I trust that parents mean well, but people do what they know. And sometimes they have never had models of effective communication and conflict resolution. We are all learning all the time. The book suggestions "Kids, Parents and Power Struggles" and "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen" are well received, although the titles belie their messages of gentle parenting.

The book "Peace Is Every Step" helped me to come to terms with my childhood experiences and place them in context of what my parents must have experienced as children themselves. Understanding leads to compassion. We can choose peace in every moment. But, it is a practice of awareness of the moment, rather than judging. For me, helping parents who are overwhelmed comes from a place of compassion, despite their behavior. It really is the same with children, focusing on the underlying need. I am just learning to help the parent get what s/he needs, AND the child.

I have found that the energy with which I meet folks impacts the message I send. But, when a child is hit, old wounds are re-opened and it IS hard to meet a hitting parent with compassion. And, sometimes, intervening when emotions are already high can push folks over the edge. Certainly, it is a difficult environment for everyone.

Another option is to express concern to the staff in a store about the parents hitting children. Not sure anything would happen, but some staff might well "take a stand" about hitting children. Involving the "authorities" in an institution/business is a suggested way of intervening in the article "What should I do when I see someone hitting their kid?" http://www.nospank.net/stang.htm

Just redirecting the parent to adult-mode, out of "parent/authority", seems to move their emotional energy toward more civil, ime.

Pat


----------



## funkygranolamama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Here is an article *"What should I do when I see someone hitting their kid?"* http://www.nospank.net/stang.htm

I try to offer empathy for both parent and child, and in conversation suggest "a couple of books that really helped to create cooperation in our family were "Kids, Parents and Power Struggles" and "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen". Sometimes, just redirecting the adult to having an adult conversation changes the energy, because they no longer feel isolated and socially challenged by the child's behavior. Out of probably 20-25 times that I have initiated contact in a heated parental exchange, only once did I encounter an unwelcomed response. I just listened and was sad and cried later. But, I had spoken up for the child's experience, which I trust at least validated the child's feelings.

The unwelcome incident was when a man slapped a child (about 5-7 years old) across the face while standing in line at the CVS. I immediately spoke up and said "Please don't hit her. Hitting hurts." He declared that "as long as I don't leave a bruise, I can punish her as much as I want". I didn't know what to say further, I felt horrible for the child, but knew legally he was "right". I felt very intimidated by his stance and didn't challenge him. It was a very helpless feeling. (I was alone.) I sorta feel that I would have felt stronger if ds had been with me. Because I would have been concerned about his experience of witnessing this. *I* felt like a child being reprimanded, interestingly. With ds, I feel much more Mama Bear, I guess. I wish I had spoken about how I had felt as a child when I was punished, but I really felt mentally/emotionally threatened by his stature, voice and body language.

EVERYONE has *thanked me* for "helping" prior to this, when the family was obviously overwhelmed and feeling out of control, even those who had been threatening, or had just hit, their children in public. But, I listen to folks nearby, if I hear things escalating in a store, I can intervene. I've walked up to folks and "commiserated" and offered the "helpful book suggestions" on many occasions. I have a forte for intervening in these types of situations. I do it all the time. LOL It gets easier with practice and with no mal-intent.

My sense about the physical "discipline" that I experienced as a child, was that MY perception was validated (finally!) somewhere around 4th grade when an outside *Adult!* spoke up against hitting children. Prior to that time, my parent's opinion and voice were strongest in my mind about me being hit. So, the emotional manipulation of being told "you caused my anger", "you deserve to be punished", "it's your fault", etc lost some of its power because someone validated MY experience. I certainly am concerned that the subsequent physical assault by a parent may be worse if another adult intervenes publicly. But I believe the emotional abuse of a child being told you "deserve" to be hit, lasts longer than the physical impact.

So, I choose to speak up. My goal is to neutralize the anger, not confront it. And I wish to share tools when someone is open to it. I trust that parents mean well, but people do what they know. And sometimes they have never had models of effective communication and conflict resolution. We are all learning all the time. The book suggestions "Kids, Parents and Power Struggles" and "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen" are well received, although the titles belie their messages of gentle parenting.

The book "Peace Is Every Step" helped me to come to terms with my childhood experiences and place them in context of what my parents must have experienced as children themselves. Understanding leads to compassion. We can choose peace in every moment. But, it is a practice of awareness of the moment, rather than judging. For me, helping parents who are overwhelmed comes from a place of compassion, despite their behavior. It really is the same with children, focusing on the underlying need. I am just learning to help the parent get what s/he needs, AND the child.

I have found that the energy with which I meet folks impacts the message I send. But, when a child is hit, old wounds are re-opened and it IS hard to meet a hitting parent with compassion. And, sometimes, intervening when emotions are already high can push folks over the edge. Certainly, it is a difficult environment for everyone.

Another option is to express concern to the staff in a store about the parents hitting children. Not sure anything would happen, but some staff might well "take a stand" about hitting children. Involving the "authorities" in an institution/business is a suggested way of intervening in the article "What should I do when I see someone hitting their kid?" http://www.nospank.net/stang.htm

Just redirecting the parent to adult-mode, out of "parent/authority", seems to move their emotional energy toward more civil, ime.

Pat


wonderful post. thanks for sharing that!


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## prothyraia

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
I hate to even say it because people here already are sterotyped so badly, but I live in south Alabama. My kids are hsed.
***Forgot to quote! Someone asked me where I was from when I mentioned that corporal punishment is still used in our public schools, unless you sign a waiver saying you won't allow it.

It's similar in Texas, except that you sign a waiver saying you *will* allow it. Or at least it was 10 years ago.


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## swampangel

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Hmm. Threads like this are what make this forum so interesting to me. We're all different, and have different preferences -- to the point where my fun is someone else's "Ugh," and vice-versa.

If you don't enjoy heated discussions where people sometimes passionately disagree, there are lots of threads like "Something wonderful that happened today," that don't seem likely to generate as much disagreement.

No reason to stay away from the forum, IMO. In my case, I tend to stay away from the "something wonderful" threads simply because they're not as likely to be interesting _to me_. It just doesn't seem too hard to me read the title of a thread, and figure out if it's my type of thread or not.

Of course, sometimes titles can be misleading -- and I'm sure I've missed some interesting discussions just because the thread had words like "wonderful" or "This made me smile" in the title.









I loves threads like this, too. I like the grittier discussions that make me think. I can understand why folks don't like it, though. I'm ok with some conflict but I know that's a red flag for lots of folks.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
I feel compelled to find a solution to every problem. I think that's a bit of an issue, but anyway. Wouldn't it be nice if someone printed little flyers (like those hellfire and brimstone some religion passes out), but instead make it an informational piece about why hitting children is not effective? I might just do that....

It's terrible that I see abuse enough that I feel compelled to print flyers. To avoid any flames, what I see is typically not the smacking of hands. The kids would probably be grateful for that.

I wouldn't knock your idea to distribute flyers (don't know how serious you were) but I'm not sure pro-spankers would view them any differently than we would view hellfire and brimstone flyers....

I think it's complicated and systemic. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm not sure flyers or being confronted by a stranger will change anything for those families.


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## mandalamama

forgive me if i've missed it, but does anyone respond to spanking parents with the compassion of prayer? i'm a spiritual person and when i see things like this happening - any conflict between people, for that matter - i send a prayer their way, it goes something like "hoping for the best outcome for all concerned" basically. if it's a clearly stressed mama, i ask if she needs help for a few minutes while she does whatever she's trying to do.

my daughter is only 3 but the moment she sees a child being "roughly disciplined" (those who don't spank can pull hair, pinch skin, hiss threats, etc.) she rushes to intervene! and also comfort the crying child. i didn't teach her this, i think it's just the state of a child's innocence when left to flourish. i think everyone can take a lesson from the wisdom of a child







it is very difficult, however, to explain to her why the other children are being hurt


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## swampangel

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
My sense about the physical "discipline" that I experienced as a child, was that MY perception was validated (finally!) somewhere around 4th grade when an outside *Adult!* spoke up against hitting children. Prior to that time, my parent's opinion and voice were strongest in my mind about me being hit. So, the emotional manipulation of being told "you caused my anger", "you deserve to be punished", "it's your fault", etc lost some of its power because someone validated MY experience. I certainly am concerned that the subsequent physical assault by a parent may be worse if another adult intervenes publicly. But I believe the emotional abuse of a child being told you "deserve" to be hit, lasts longer than the physical impact.

When an adult spoke up, was it in the presence of your parents? During an abusive incident? I think this is the issue that comes up for me. I totally agree with you about being another voice of truth for the child so that their reality doesn't get internalized entirely. I grew up in very adverse conditions and having other adults in my life who showed me there were other options and made me feel differently about myself made all the difference.

I'm still not sure about the public confrontation of a stranger in a situation such as spanking. I think empathizing and offering help is good, but making some kind of judgmental statement (which of course I would feel with every pore of my being) to the person seems totally counter-productive.


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## mammal_mama

Pat, I really like what you said about having compassion for BOTH parent and child, and trying to address the parents' underlying needs, just we do for our own children who might be hitting or acting out in some way. It makes me so sad, when people act like it has to be either/or: either you have compassion on the child, or you have compassion on the parent, but it can never be both.

The other day, some new neighbor children came to play in our yard. I'd given the 2yo her own water-bottle when she got thirsty, and she'd poured out and played with the water, so when she got thirsty again I ran back into the house to refill it for her.

When I came back onto the porch, the little girl was crying hysterically, and at first I worried that she and my own 2yo might have had an altercation. However, the little girl's 8yo cousin explained that she'd just "popped her in the mouth" for trying to drink out of our water-bottle while I was in the house, because "we're trying to teach her not to drink from other people's bottles or cups."

I hugged the crying little girl, and remembered that my 2yo had been trying to share our bottle with this little girl as I was running into the house to fill hers. I hadn't thought it would be such a big deal if she DID take a sip from our bottle, so hadn't really tried to prevent it. I told the 8yo, "I think my daughter gave her this one, so she thought it was okay."

Well, then the 8yo responded by apologizing to her little cousin, and hugging and comforting her as I'd just done, which I saw as a very positive thing. Of course, I didn't think it was as positive when she offered for the little girl to "hit her back" -- but I think her heart was in the right place!

I was able to feel compassion for the "perpetrating" 8yo, because I knew she was just "disciplining" as she'd been taught. And I think it's really no different, when we see adults doing similar things. If we wouldn't yell at or threaten an older child who's carrying out the "family tradition" of "teaching lessons" to a younger sibling -- why can't we feel the same compassion for an adult who's probably using the only tools she has?

Of course I realize, as Pat said, that seeing things that mirror our own childhoods can trigger emotions that make it hard to respond with compassion toward the perpetrator. If only we can remember that compassion makes for more open and receptive hearts, than does threatening and condemnation!


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## ruhbehka

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
My kids love to climb. They're unlikely to get seriously hurt and I think it's a great way for them to explore their physical limits and gain confidence in themselves. I wouldn't let them climb out on a building ledge or something, but a table that's 2.5 feet off the floor? Eh.

We've always let our little guy do the same, as far as climbing goes, but now he's got a broken collarbone and a sling! He fell off our bed (no frame, just mattress and boxspring) when he was playing on it, and I guess he landed badly.

I'd like to say he knows more of his physical limits now, but unfortunately, he is still trying to climb everything (one-armed). I guess not all 15 month olds have a good sense of their own limits.







:


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## PennyRoo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 









This is my kid

Note: not actually my child, but something my child would do and is capable of.

Ha ha! I was just about to post that my DD often secretly climbs atop the fridge, and somehow defies gravity by scaling the doorway moldings in our house right to the top. Love those spirited kiddos.


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## triscuitsmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 
We've always let our little guy do the same, as far as climbing goes, but now he's got a broken collarbone and a sling! He fell off our bed (no frame, just mattress and boxspring) when he was playing on it, and I guess he landed badly.

I'd like to say he knows more of his physical limits now, but unfortunately, he is still trying to climb everything (one-armed). I guess not all 15 month olds have a good sense of their own limits.







:

It sounds like it was a fluke thing by what you described, so he probably does know his own limits, but that was an accident. I once completely wrecked my knee, and was on cruches and had it braced... what did I do? I fell off of a sidewalk. And yet, I do it again, because walking on the sidewalk is within my limits, it was just an accident and a fluke. Just to offer my thoughts from the other (somewhat accident prone at times







) side.

You're doing a great job with your DS as he learns Mama! WTG!!!


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
When an adult spoke up, was it in the presence of your parents? During an abusive incident?

Well, it was a long time ago. My recollection is that it was a school teacher doing some "social awareness" discussion about parents not hitting children and "call authorities" if they do. Not sure the context/reason for the discussion. But, when I told my parents that I'd report them to the authorities if they hit me, I was told "You'll just get it worse after they leave." But, just knowing that SOMEONE didn't approve, was the first time I'd ever *imagined* the possibility. Everyone in my extended family embraced "beating our butts when we deserved it". I know my cousins got it worse than we did. Eventually, one of them violently killed himself with self-hatred.









Anyway. Happy Thanksgiving!







Life is what we make it. Now I know that we can create our experience by validating ourself!

Pat


----------



## thismama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Well, it was a long time ago. My recollection is that it was a school teacher doing some "social awareness" discussion about parents not hitting children and "call authorities" if they do. Not sure the context/reason for the discussion. But, when I told my parents that I'd report them to the authorities if they hit me, I was told "You'll just get it worse after they leave." But, just knowing that SOMEONE didn't approve, was the first time I'd ever *imagined* the possibility. Everyone in my extended family embraced "beating our butts when we deserved it". I know my cousins got it worse than we did. Eventually, one of them violently killed himself with self-hatred.









I was also abused as a child, and what you are saying really resonates with me. I even told my parents the same thing!







That I would call CAS on them. They said I would be removed from the home and bad things would happen. I remember dialing teh CAS phone number so many times after being beaten, and then hanging up when someone answered.









I also agree wholeheartedly that hearing someone, anyone say "It's not okay" was super soul-saving for me, such a strong counter to the messages that I deserved it, that it was okay because I had provoked it, etc. It allowed imagining a world where parents didn't react to children like me in an angry, hateful way. It gave hope that I badly needed.

That is part of why to this day I find it important to say something when I see a parent harming their child. Otherwise in my silence I feel complicit in the message the child is getting that the parent behaving abusively toward them is somehow okay.


----------



## swampangel

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Well, it was a long time ago. My recollection is that it was a school teacher doing some "social awareness" discussion about parents not hitting children and "call authorities" if they do. Not sure the context/reason for the discussion. But, when I told my parents that I'd report them to the authorities if they hit me, I was told "You'll just get it worse after they leave." But, just knowing that SOMEONE didn't approve, was the first time I'd ever *imagined* the possibility. Everyone in my extended family embraced "beating our butts when we deserved it". I know my cousins got it worse than we did. Eventually, one of them violently killed himself with self-hatred.









Anyway. Happy Thanksgiving!







Life is what we make it. Now I know that we can create our experience by validating ourself!

Pat

Thanks for sharing, Pat. It is powerful and very meaningful to hear it from someone who has been through it. Thank you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I was also abused as a child, and what you are saying really resonates with me. I even told my parents the same thing!







That I would call CAS on them. They said I would be removed from the home and bad things would happen. I remember dialing teh CAS phone number so many times after being beaten, and then hanging up when someone answered.









I also agree wholeheartedly that hearing someone, anyone say "It's not okay" was super soul-saving for me, such a strong counter to the messages that I deserved it, that it was okay because I had provoked it, etc. It allowed imagining a world where parents didn't react to children like me in an angry, hateful way. It gave hope that I badly needed.

That is part of why to this day I find it important to say something when I see a parent harming their child. Otherwise in my silence I feel complicit in the message the child is getting that the parent behaving abusively toward them is somehow okay.

This makes a lot of sense.

I know neither of you is asking for this but I am so sorry you experienced that kind of violence in your childhoods. I hope that at the same time your mothering is giving such a beautiful gift to your own children, that it's also providing some healing to the little one inside of you, too.

Both of your stories have helped to tease out my thinking about saying something that might cause further harm. I agree with you both entirely that having an adult speak the truth and advocate for a child who is being mistreated is very powerful and very important. To me, it's clear that I'd call CPS if it was abusive, but a slap on the hand I might not have said anything...I now feel differently about that. Fortunately I haven't run into this (maybe I don't get out enough), but if I do I will get involved.


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## Kirstyandgirls

x


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## WuWei

Bumping.

Pat


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## purple_kangaroo

Wow, I'm shocked that people are saying that they would call police or CPS over a slap on the hand. It makes more sense knowing that the mom in the doctor's office actually knocked the kid off the chair and continued screaming at the kid after that, but the way the OP was written sounded like a little tap on the hand like many people do to teach their kids not to touch things like a hot stove.

For people to be saying they would call CPS over a basic slap on the hand just flabbergasts me. I'm guessing they have never been in the position of being under CPS investigation or being close to someone who has been.

Obviously, the risks vary from area to area and from social worker to social worker, but any time you make a CPS report they do have to put the family under investigation. Any time there is an investigation the child(ren) can be removed, basically almost at the whim of the social worker. It can be very easy for children to be removed from a home with very little provocation. Once a child is removed, getting them back is much more difficult even if they were removed inappropriately in the first place. Even if the child is not removed, a single report can lead to literally years of extreme stress and trauma for the family. I believe that even an unsubstantiated report or a report proven as false results in a record and can make it easier for the family to get in trouble for something off the beaten path like not vaccinating, homeschooling, etc.

Being taken away from their family is so very traumatic to a child in most situations. And, sadly, the rate of abuse in the CPS system is much higher than the rate of abuse in the general population.

The only time I think I would call CPS is if I felt the child was being so severely abused that they would most likely be better off if removed from the home. And, unless it was very severe abuse or sexual abuse, I would most likely try to educate and intervene before doing anything else.

I, too, came from a loving home with parents who used a lot of GD methods but did also spank. I don't feel spanking or hitting is a good parenting tool, but my parents were pretty careful to do it "right" and not cause physical injury beyond momentary pain. Taking me and my siblings away from our parents would have been hugely traumatic and inappropriate for our situation. I would far rather be in a loving home with otherwise wonderful parents who spanked occasionally, then be yanked from my family and sent to live with strangers who may or may not be much more severely abusive.

Plus . . . If you just see a parent you don't know slap their child, how do you know the situation? Maybe that parent is just starting to learn about Gentle Discipline and is really trying, but lost it that time and once they cooled off they determined to do better the next time. Maybe you witnessed the only time in the child's life that the parent ever hit them in any way. Would that be worth tearing apart a family over? Would being taken away from the parents _really_ be helping the child, ultimately?

I remember seeing a conversation here once where a mother had, out of reflex, slapped a child who bit her really hard and wouldn't let go. She hadn't intended to hit the child--it was just her primal reaction of defense and stopping the pain when she was "attacked".

The mother was horrified at herself and felt devastated that she had hit the baby, and told others about it in hopes of helping herself figure out how to keep from responding that way if the situation came up again. I only hope that people here wouldn't be trying to get that mother's personal information so they could make a report with CPS, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone did. I know that if I ever found myself in such a situation this would be the _last_ place I would come for help.

Some people here are so quick to cry "abuse" and talk about calling CPS over relatively minor things, sometimes even things that don't even cause actual pain to a child (like restraining a small child in a chair). It scares me how many supposedly consensual, respectful, gentle, caring people wouldn't think twice about setting in motion events that could destroy a family over something like that when they don't even know enough of the situation to truly determine whether something is abusive or not, or whether it's a pattern or not.

I really like the idea of saying something to the parent to diffuse the situation, offering help, etc. You can disapprove of something a person does and even do something about it without engaging in a response that is completely out of proportion and is likely to do more harm than good.

So many people seem to have the idea that "if in doubt, report" should be their motto. In a world where CPS was truly an agency with the proper checks and balances, enough staffing and funding, worked the way it was supposed to the vast majority of the time, and didn't have financial and other incentives to remove children from their homes (as opposed to helping the families find better ways to interact), that would be fine. But we don't live in that world.

Any time we consider reporting someone to CPS, we should really consider whether we think it would help the child to be removed from the home or not. "First, do no harm" should apply just as much to everyone else in society as it does to doctors.


----------



## majikfaerie

good discusion to be bumped, ww.

i'll just respond to the OP:
I've been in a situation, twice where I witnessed a child being hit. and not just a slap on the hand.

the first one was actually a friend, who was having a hard time with her DS, and she picked him up and started spanking him repeatedly on the butt.
I lost it, ran over, grabbed the child out of her arms, shouting at her "I can't let you hit a child", and ran off to the beach.
It led to a big healing on her part; she realised she had been getting out of control and needed to work on herself.

But that was with a friend, and a child I knew well.

The second time, I saw a man whipping his child with a bamboo cane. i tried at first to get the man to stop, but he was thai, didn't speak english (this was in thailand, and we were all living on a community).
The guy kept on whipping his 2yo DS, who was crying hysterically.

I totally saw red, at some point, and lost it. I ran over, grabbed the bamboo stick out of the guys hand and started whipping him with it. eventually, the cane snapped, so i threw it at him and started kicking.







: not cool. I know.

the happy ending though; afterward, I communicated with the guy, basically, he didn't understand why I attacked him.
I mimed that hitting children is bad.
he mimed back that the baby was crying, what else to do?
I mimed picking up and comforting a crying child.
his eyes widened, like, he really got it.
then he hugged me and shook my hand and apologised. after that we became good friends


----------



## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
Plus . . . If you just see a parent you don't know slap their child, how do you know the situation? Maybe that parent is just starting to learn about Gentle Discipline and is really trying, but lost it that time and once they cooled off they determined to do better the next time. Maybe you witnessed the only time in the child's life that the parent ever hit them in any way. Would that be worth tearing apart a family over? Would being taken away from the parents _really_ be helping the child, ultimately?

I agree. It's bizarre to me that advocates of Gentle Discipline, want to rush into punitive approaches, and see them as the most effective ways to help families.

If I see a child hurting someone, or even beating another person or animal with a cane, is it in-line with GD for me to grab the cane and beat the child with it? Does it make it okay if I say, "I know it's not the ideal response -- but I saw red."?

I'm not saying this to condemn majikfaerie (or anyone who advocates calling CPS for the OP's situation, for that matter): and I realize that we all sometimes respond to injustice in less-than-ideal ways. Many of us have grown up in punitive environments -- if not spanked, then nevertheless punished for breaking rules and not getting to class on time, and so on. Even though we now disagree with those punitive methods, it's hard not to slip back into familiar territory when we're stressed.

It's just seems contradictory to me when people who realize "punishment doesn't work," seem in such a hurry to do harsh stuff that "doesn't work" to the parents of children we're concerned about and supposedly want to protect. If we care so much, wouldn't we want to do something effective, such as trying to see where the parent is coming from, and looking for ways to connect and offer to support to the family?

I realize that many who advocate calling CPS, feel the workers are better equipped than they are to connect with and support the child, parents, and whole family. Sometimes this is the case, but it seems too risky to me.

majikfaerie, I'm glad your beating of the non-English-speaking guy had a good outcome! I guess that goes to show that love sometimes makes everything okay. But I'm thinking that maybe the friendship could have blossomed without the beating? Just as kids who've been spanked usually still love their parents -- but undoubtedly, even without the spankings, they'd still still love them at least as much?


----------



## majikfaerie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
majikfaerie, I'm glad your beating of the non-English-speaking guy had a good outcome! I guess that goes to show that love sometimes makes everything okay. But I'm thinking that maybe the friendship could have blossomed without the beating? Just as kids who've been spanked usually still love their parents -- but undoubtedly, even without the spankings, they'd still still love them at least as much?

I never said that it was a good thing I did, or even remotely okay. quite the opposite.
I'm glad it had a happy ending; it could have ended very badly.
I did try in the beginning to use gentle methods of getting the guy to stop. and yeah, at some point, the hysteria of the moment - yeah, this guy was _whipping a 2yo boy with a huge bamboo cane and the kid was screaming_. This went on for about 10 minutes before I snapped. I had tried twice already to stop the situation in a gentle way. The guy didn't speak any english, and wasn't really open to communicating in that moment. I simply had to get him to stop hitting the kid.

I felt terrible afterward, like I'd failed in every GD non-violent belief I hold dear. But beating that man up, it was somehow like a cathartic experience; I really felt like I was hitting my father, defending my childhood self from all the times he beat me.

Flat out, a little slap on the hand is violence. I'm not talking about the taps some parents give a toddler to warn them of a hot stove, or whatever. I'm talking about the little smacks that are given as punishment. this ia violence against a child. no excuses.

please, just think about it for a second. imagine you did something wrong at work; perhaps came late, or photocopied the wrong thing, or something. then your boss comes and gives you a smack on the butt. just think about it.


----------



## NaomiMcC

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dex_millie* 
Call the police







: What the hell







: Fill abuse charges







:







:

************Don't think I was advocating or defending physical punishment but I will take this paragraph out, just giving an example of not to judge everyone who smack on the hand*************

************I do plan on practicing it. But some of yall act like all spankers is the same, and all are abusive. That is all some people knew how children are to be raised and some really believed in it.

That is not to say that I also don't get some good tips from here. I just believe that sometimes the word 'abusive, abusers' are used lightly.
I know I might get flames for this but I guess this time I had to say something. Not all smacker on the hand people are abusers.

Exactly. I agree. calling the police over a hand slap? Come on...


----------



## NaomiMcC

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
Wow, I'm shocked that people are saying that they would call police or CPS over a slap on the hand. It makes more sense knowing that the mom in the doctor's office actually knocked the kid off the chair and continued screaming at the kid after that, but the way the OP was written sounded like a little tap on the hand like many people do to teach their kids not to touch things like a hot stove.

For people to be saying they would call CPS over a basic slap on the hand just flabbergasts me. I'm guessing they have never been in the position of being under CPS investigation or being close to someone who has been.

Obviously, the risks vary from area to area and from social worker to social worker, but any time you make a CPS report they do have to put the family under investigation. Any time there is an investigation the child(ren) can be removed, basically almost at the whim of the social worker. It can be very easy for children to be removed from a home with very little provocation. Once a child is removed, getting them back is much more difficult even if they were removed inappropriately in the first place. Even if the child is not removed, a single report can lead to literally years of extreme stress and trauma for the family. I believe that even an unsubstantiated report or a report proven as false results in a record and can make it easier for the family to get in trouble for something off the beaten path like not vaccinating, homeschooling, etc.

Being taken away from their family is so very traumatic to a child in most situations. And, sadly, the rate of abuse in the CPS system is much higher than the rate of abuse in the general population.

The only time I think I would call CPS is if I felt the child was being so severely abused that they would most likely be better off if removed from the home. And, unless it was very severe abuse or sexual abuse, I would most likely try to educate and intervene before doing anything else.

I, too, came from a loving home with parents who used a lot of GD methods but did also spank. I don't feel spanking or hitting is a good parenting tool, but my parents were pretty careful to do it "right" and not cause physical injury beyond momentary pain. Taking me and my siblings away from our parents would have been hugely traumatic and inappropriate for our situation. I would far rather be in a loving home with otherwise wonderful parents who spanked occasionally, then be yanked from my family and sent to live with strangers who may or may not be much more severely abusive.

Plus . . . If you just see a parent you don't know slap their child, how do you know the situation? Maybe that parent is just starting to learn about Gentle Discipline and is really trying, but lost it that time and once they cooled off they determined to do better the next time. Maybe you witnessed the only time in the child's life that the parent ever hit them in any way. Would that be worth tearing apart a family over? Would being taken away from the parents _really_ be helping the child, ultimately?

I remember seeing a conversation here once where a mother had, out of reflex, slapped a child who bit her really hard and wouldn't let go. She hadn't intended to hit the child--it was just her primal reaction of defense and stopping the pain when she was "attacked".

The mother was horrified at herself and felt devastated that she had hit the baby, and told others about it in hopes of helping herself figure out how to keep from responding that way if the situation came up again. I only hope that people here wouldn't be trying to get that mother's personal information so they could make a report with CPS, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone did. I know that if I ever found myself in such a situation this would be the _last_ place I would come for help.

Some people here are so quick to cry "abuse" and talk about calling CPS over relatively minor things, sometimes even things that don't even cause actual pain to a child (like restraining a small child in a chair). It scares me how many supposedly consensual, respectful, gentle, caring people wouldn't think twice about setting in motion events that could destroy a family over something like that when they don't even know enough of the situation to truly determine whether something is abusive or not, or whether it's a pattern or not.

I really like the idea of saying something to the parent to diffuse the situation, offering help, etc. You can disapprove of something a person does and even do something about it without engaging in a response that is completely out of proportion and is likely to do more harm than good.

So many people seem to have the idea that "if in doubt, report" should be their motto. In a world where CPS was truly an agency with the proper checks and balances, enough staffing and funding, worked the way it was supposed to the vast majority of the time, and didn't have financial and other incentives to remove children from their homes (as opposed to helping the families find better ways to interact), that would be fine. But we don't live in that world.

Any time we consider reporting someone to CPS, we should really consider whether we think it would help the child to be removed from the home or not. "First, do no harm" should apply just as much to everyone else in society as it does to doctors.


----------



## purple_kangaroo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
Flat out, a little slap on the hand is violence. I'm not talking about the taps some parents give a toddler to warn them of a hot stove, or whatever. I'm talking about the little smacks that are given as punishment. this ia violence against a child. no excuses.


What's the difference? Why would a slap to warn a child against a hot stove be any more OK than a slap to punish them for hitting someone or touching a breakable object that could hurt them or someone else?


----------



## majikfaerie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
What's the difference? Why would a slap to warn a child against a hot stove be any more OK than a slap to punish them for hitting someone or touching a breakable object that could hurt them or someone else?

I don't know what the difference is. I merely stated that's not specifically what I was talking about.
personally, I think a slap is a slap is a slap.
but there are some folk here who would 'tap' a child's hand away from a hot stove, as a warning. I didn't want my point to get lost by people defending that.


----------



## dex_millie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
Wow, I'm shocked that people are saying that they would call police or CPS over a slap on the hand. It makes more sense knowing that the mom in the doctor's office actually knocked the kid off the chair and continued screaming at the kid after that, but the way the OP was written sounded like a little tap on the hand like many people do to teach their kids not to touch things like a hot stove.

For people to be saying they would call CPS over a basic slap on the hand just flabbergasts me. I'm guessing they have never been in the position of being under CPS investigation or being close to someone who has been.

Obviously, the risks vary from area to area and from social worker to social worker, but any time you make a CPS report they do have to put the family under investigation. Any time there is an investigation the child(ren) can be removed, basically almost at the whim of the social worker. It can be very easy for children to be removed from a home with very little provocation. Once a child is removed, getting them back is much more difficult even if they were removed inappropriately in the first place. Even if the child is not removed, a single report can lead to literally years of extreme stress and trauma for the family. I believe that even an unsubstantiated report or a report proven as false results in a record and can make it easier for the family to get in trouble for something off the beaten path like not vaccinating, homeschooling, etc.

Being taken away from their family is so very traumatic to a child in most situations. And, sadly, the rate of abuse in the CPS system is much higher than the rate of abuse in the general population.

The only time I think I would call CPS is if I felt the child was being so severely abused that they would most likely be better off if removed from the home. And, unless it was very severe abuse or sexual abuse, I would most likely try to educate and intervene before doing anything else.

I, too, came from a loving home with parents who used a lot of GD methods but did also spank. I don't feel spanking or hitting is a good parenting tool, but my parents were pretty careful to do it "right" and not cause physical injury beyond momentary pain. Taking me and my siblings away from our parents would have been hugely traumatic and inappropriate for our situation. I would far rather be in a loving home with otherwise wonderful parents who spanked occasionally, then be yanked from my family and sent to live with strangers who may or may not be much more severely abusive.

Plus . . . If you just see a parent you don't know slap their child, how do you know the situation? Maybe that parent is just starting to learn about Gentle Discipline and is really trying, but lost it that time and once they cooled off they determined to do better the next time. Maybe you witnessed the only time in the child's life that the parent ever hit them in any way. Would that be worth tearing apart a family over? Would being taken away from the parents _really_ be helping the child, ultimately?

I remember seeing a conversation here once where a mother had, out of reflex, slapped a child who bit her really hard and wouldn't let go. She hadn't intended to hit the child--it was just her primal reaction of defense and stopping the pain when she was "attacked".

The mother was horrified at herself and felt devastated that she had hit the baby, and told others about it in hopes of helping herself figure out how to keep from responding that way if the situation came up again. I only hope that people here wouldn't be trying to get that mother's personal information so they could make a report with CPS, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone did. I know that if I ever found myself in such a situation this would be the _last_ place I would come for help.

Some people here are so quick to cry "abuse" and talk about calling CPS over relatively minor things, sometimes even things that don't even cause actual pain to a child (like restraining a small child in a chair). It scares me how many supposedly consensual, respectful, gentle, caring people wouldn't think twice about setting in motion events that could destroy a family over something like that when they don't even know enough of the situation to truly determine whether something is abusive or not, or whether it's a pattern or not.

I really like the idea of saying something to the parent to diffuse the situation, offering help, etc. You can disapprove of something a person does and even do something about it without engaging in a response that is completely out of proportion and is likely to do more harm than good.

So many people seem to have the idea that "if in doubt, report" should be their motto. In a world where CPS was truly an agency with the proper checks and balances, enough staffing and funding, worked the way it was supposed to the vast majority of the time, and didn't have financial and other incentives to remove children from their homes (as opposed to helping the families find better ways to interact), that would be fine. But we don't live in that world.

Any time we consider reporting someone to CPS, we should really consider whether we think it would help the child to be removed from the home or not. "First, do no harm" should apply just as much to everyone else in society as it does to doctors.

I agree with this. You can put stuff in words that I can't.

My mom just told me about a case at home where CPS was called on this parent. They took her daughter who is a teenager and put her in a foster home for investigation. The foster relative raped the girl, she is now pregnant, it is being brought to court. We are not sure if the mother hit the girl, or they was just having a really mad arguement. But even so, taking a child does not always solve the case, supose this was a younger girl 8 or 9.

Oh..they returned the girl because there wasn't even a good cause to take her in the first place.


----------



## purple_kangaroo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dex_millie* 
I agree with this. You can put stuff in words that I can't.

My mom just told me about a case at home where CPS was called on this parent. They took her daughter who is a teenager and put her in a foster home for investigation. The foster relative raped the girl, she is now pregnant, it is being brought to court. We are not sure if the mother hit the girl, or they was just having a really mad arguement. But even so, taking a child does not always solve the case, supose this was a younger girl 8 or 9.

Oh..they returned the girl because there wasn't even a good cause to take her in the first place.

Yep . . . child abuse allegations in this country generally take a "presumed guilty until proven innocent" approach--at least toward the parents. If it's a foster parent doing the alleged abuse, they're more likely to be presumed innocent until proven guilty, it seems. It's not that uncommon for kids to be removed from their parents while unfounded allegations are "under investigation" when there is actually no good evidence that abuse ever happened.

It's scary that an anonymous unconfirmed report of a SUSPICION that a child may or may not have been abused can and too often does result in the child being removed from the home.

I heard about a family who had their child taken away because a neighbor heard a little girl yell "Stop, Daddy, stop!" one evening and called CPS. My kids yell stuff like that all the time while playing roughouse games (like if they're pretending Daddy is a dog chasing them--it's all in fun and nobody gets hurt) or if Daddy tries to turn off the TV before they're done watching something or tries to put a food they don't want on their plates at dinner. It's hardly evidence of abuse sufficient to remove a child, IMHO. If you get on a search engine and search for the term "cps abuse" or "DCF abuse" you will find page after page of similar stories.


----------



## Sparks*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheLuckiestEllie* 
What do you do when you see a child get spanked in public? I witnessed this tonight.







The kid was maybe 8 or 9 years, and wasn't doing a single thing wrong that I could see. The mom just screamed and screamed at him and then she spanked him several times. I felt sick to my stomach but I had no idea if I should do anything. I just gave DS a big hug and turned him away so he couldn't see. What would you have done?

I think you did just the right thing.


----------



## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
I never said that it was a good thing I did, or even remotely okay. quite the opposite.
I'm glad it had a happy ending; it could have ended very badly.
I did try in the beginning to use gentle methods of getting the guy to stop. and yeah, at some point, the hysteria of the moment - yeah, this guy was _whipping a 2yo boy with a huge bamboo cane and the kid was screaming_. This went on for about 10 minutes before I snapped. I had tried twice already to stop the situation in a gentle way. The guy didn't speak any english, and wasn't really open to communicating in that moment. I simply had to get him to stop hitting the kid.

Wow! He sure did need to be stopped!

Really, I'm sorry I picked on you. Because my intention was really to respond to the _general_ idea of behaving punitively toward parents, in behalf of the children. I can understand feeling a need to intervene in such a gross act of injustice, that just kept going on and on. Too bad it sounds like you weren't in a place where you could get police help. But actually, if the police had dealt with it, then maybe the friendship wouldn't have been forged, which undoubtedly did this family a world of good.

Quote:

I felt terrible afterward, like I'd failed in every GD non-violent belief I hold dear. But beating that man up, it was somehow like a cathartic experience; I really felt like I was hitting my father, defending my childhood self from all the times he beat me.
I can understand that, too! I think most of us carry some history of being punished -- so when we see or hear about horrid things happening, there's this thing in our gut saying that the only appropriate response is punishment, especially when the victim of the horridness is a little innocent child.

I just don't see punishment as effective, whatever the age of the perpetrator. I think your love and friendship was way more effective, and I'm glad you had it in you to give.

Still, in your example, majikfaerie, I'm thinking that what you did was better than doing nothing. It was the only way you knew to stop him from continuing to brutally hurt that tiny child.

Quote:

Flat out, a little slap on the hand is violence. I'm not talking about the taps some parents give a toddler to warn them of a hot stove, or whatever. I'm talking about the little smacks that are given as punishment. this ia violence against a child. no excuses.
I agree. It's just hard for many people to accept that their own parents, and other people they respect, have been promoting violence all these years. It really and truly is violence, not teaching -- but just as some people promote tougher punishments to deter adult criminals, some people promote hand-smacks as a teaching-tool for children.

Maybe if GD can keep spreading and being actively promoted, the new generations will come up with a way to revamp the criminal justice system (as well as the punitive school system). I know I don't have the answer; some people are so damaged, and so lacking in conscience, that I sure don't want them out and about in my community. I mean, I know the answer is God's love ... I just don't know how to get it into certain people.

Quote:

please, just think about it for a second. imagine you did something wrong at work; perhaps came late, or photocopied the wrong thing, or something. then your boss comes and gives you a smack on the butt. just think about it.
Yes, I guess the difference is in how, or whether, taking action is going to help and empower the victim. If I'm assaulted by another adult, I can file a report and go down to the police station. I don't have to open my home to investigators, unless I prefer for them to come to my home. And I get to stay in my home: no one's going to come in and take me away. This scenario is likely to be very empowering to me.

But in the scenario we're talking about on this thread, where we see a parent assaulting a child, either by spanking, yelling, or hand-smacking -- our taking action may or may not be empowering to the child.

I think some posters here have given excellent ideas about ways to connect with and befriend the parent, in order to speak up for the child, and also to offer support to help parents increase their parenting knowledge and resources.

I've heard of a few families who've had very positive experiences with CPS workers -- but I've also heard of some who've felt raped by the whole CPS process. For the latter group, CPS-intervention wasn't empowering to them or their kids.

Let's take the example given by Purple Kangaroo, where the child was taken because a neighbor heard her yelling, "Stop, Daddy, stop!" I can easily picture what Purple Kangaroo shared, about her kids yelling this when they're playing a fun game of chase with their daddy.

I realize the child getting jerked out of the home was a worst-case scenario -- but from what I've heard, possibly because of all the rampant child sexual abuse, there is a tendency to want to err on the side of removing the child if there's any hint of sexual suspicion toward the father. It doesn't even have to be substantiated, for the children to be taken away for the duration of the investigation.

Which may be great for the children who really are getting molested by their fathers, but it's a horrid injustice for the child who screamed, "Stop, Daddy, stop!" during a game of chase. What a horrid way to punish a child for her choice of words!

But as I was saying, child removal is the worst-case scenario -- but at the very least, the worker's going to want access to your home. At the very least, there's going to be some kind of investigation if the worker chooses to follow up on the call. At the very least, your privacy's going to be invaded and you're not going to feel as safe in your home for a while, or feel as safe playing chase with your kids and just kicking back and enjoying your family.

Rushing to call someone in, seems more likely to be disempowering to children and families, than to be empowering.


----------



## purple_kangaroo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
I never said that it was a good thing I did, or even remotely okay. quite the opposite.
I'm glad it had a happy ending; it could have ended very badly.
I did try in the beginning to use gentle methods of getting the guy to stop. and yeah, at some point, the hysteria of the moment - yeah, this guy was _whipping a 2yo boy with a huge bamboo cane and the kid was screaming_. This went on for about 10 minutes before I snapped. I had tried twice already to stop the situation in a gentle way. The guy didn't speak any english, and wasn't really open to communicating in that moment. I simply had to get him to stop hitting the kid.

I felt terrible afterward, like I'd failed in every GD non-violent belief I hold dear. But beating that man up, it was somehow like a cathartic experience; I really felt like I was hitting my father, defending my childhood self from all the times he beat me.

Do you think it would have been helpful to the situation for someone to call the police because they saw you beating this man? If you had been arrested and charged with assault? Because that certainly could have been a likely consequence. I think many people would likely call the police if they simply walked around the corner and onto the scene of someone beating someone else with a cane.

WFIW, I can certainly imagine myself grabbing the cane from the man, breaking it in little pieces and throwing it away.


----------



## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
Do you think it would have been helpful to the situation for someone to call the police because they saw you beating this man? If you had been arrested and charged with assault? Because that certainly could have been a likely consequence. I think many people would likely call the police if they simply walked around the corner and onto the scene of someone beating someone else with a cane.

Considering that no one called the police about the beating of the 2yo, it's hard to imagine them calling over a woman beating a man.


----------



## majikfaerie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
Do you think it would have been helpful to the situation for someone to call the police because they saw you beating this man? If you had been arrested and charged with assault? Because that certainly could have been a likely consequence. I think many people would likely call the police if they simply walked around the corner and onto the scene of someone beating someone else with a cane.

WFIW, I can certainly imagine myself grabbing the cane from the man, breaking it in little pieces and throwing it away.

Someone calling the police in that instance was an incredibly remote option; being as we were living in a very remote place (about 10km from a phone) and living together in a somewhat sustainable organic community (a rainbow gathering, for those that know what that is). Clearly having the police called would have been an unfortunate outcome for everyone. This was in Thailand. If I called the police to report a guy whipping his kid with a cane, they'd say "so?".

and FWIW, my intention was to grab the cane from the man and throw it away. somehow in there, I lost control. and in hindsight, might not have solved anything short of delaying the kid's punishment till he cut a new cane.

I do believe the best thing would be for me to have taken the cane from him, and communicated with him my intentions. but the language barrier was pretty great, and the kid was screaming hysterically.

I later found out that the reason he was hitting the kid in the first place was to make him stop crying. the harder the kid cried, the harder he was hit









In general, I'm the one in the supermarket who is offering gentle support to mamas who are struggling with their children, and resorting to violence. but its not too often you get to see that level of violence in an american suburb, especially in an environment where there is no way to contact police, who would be indifferent at best.


----------



## mrspineau

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
Neglectful, that's me. Perhaps my kids are more "spirited" than yours. They're both climbers. Both very physically adept. That means that sometimes they get bumps and scrapes. But usually, they don't. It's pretty impressive. I'm a big believer in using our instinctive wisdom about what our bodies are capable of. I have found my little ones find their own limits much more easily than I, as an outsider, could find them. I feel it would damage them to make them believe they are capable of less than they are because their monkey-ish tendencies make ME nervous. My nerves shouldn't be their problem.

I think that it is okay to let your kids climb. But the kitchen table is not for climbing on, it's for eating at. And a chair is not for standing on, it is for sitting on. A good place to climb is on the playground or on a jungle gym.


----------



## 00646

I see this alot where I live, parents yelling, and hitting kids.
Thats not how you teach.
I would have did what you did.


----------



## ruhbehka

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
I think that it is okay to let your kids climb. But the kitchen table is not for climbing on, it's for eating at. And a chair is not for standing on, it is for sitting on. A good place to climb is on the playground or on a jungle gym.











But I don't have a playground or a jungle gym indoors. What's wrong with letting a kid climb on the kitchen table or stand on a chair? It's not like I let him climb on other people's tables. But it's our family's table, it isn't damaging it, and he isn't likely to get hurt, so I guess I just don't see the point of fighting about it nonstop.

(And for my son, an avid climber, it would mean a constant battle to keep him off it. Climb up, grab and redirect, climb up, grab and move to another room, wander back out and climb up, grab and remind him and move him, climb up... Trust me, we have fought this battle before, and DH and I both decided it wasn't worth the energy.)


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## purple_kangaroo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Considering that no one called the police about the beating of the 2yo, it's hard to imagine them calling over a woman beating a man.

I was picturing more that a person could have come on the scene just in time to see the woman beating the man, and not have seen the man beating the child. I doubt many people would call the police if they'd seen the whole thing and realized the woman was defending the child. That's why it's often helpful to know the whole story.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
Someone calling the police in that instance was an incredibly remote option; being as we were living in a very remote place (about 10km from a phone) and living together in a somewhat sustainable organic community (a rainbow gathering, for those that know what that is). Clearly having the police called would have been an unfortunate outcome for everyone. This was in Thailand. If I called the police to report a guy whipping his kid with a cane, they'd say "so?".

and FWIW, my intention was to grab the cane from the man and throw it away. somehow in there, I lost control. and in hindsight, might not have solved anything short of delaying the kid's punishment till he cut a new cane.

I do believe the best thing would be for me to have taken the cane from him, and communicated with him my intentions. but the language barrier was pretty great, and the kid was screaming hysterically.

I later found out that the reason he was hitting the kid in the first place was to make him stop crying. the harder the kid cried, the harder he was hit









In general, I'm the one in the supermarket who is offering gentle support to mamas who are struggling with their children, and resorting to violence. but its not too often you get to see that level of violence in an american suburb, especially in an environment where there is no way to contact police, who would be indifferent at best.

I think your experience is a great example of how even the most non-violent, GD, "gentle support" person in the world can lose it and do something violent even if they would normally never do such a thing and certainly don't have a habit or pattern of acting that way. It doesn't make it excusable or OK, but it _could_ have a bearing on whether doing something drastic like calling the police or CPS would be the most helpful and effective course of action or not.

I definitely think we should intervene if we can. I just think we should be very very careful about involving CPS or police in our intervention in most cases, for reasons exactly like this.


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
I think your experience is a great example of how even the most non-violent, GD, "gentle support" person in the world can lose it and do something violent even if they would normally never do such a thing and certainly don't have a habit or pattern of acting that way. It doesn't make it excusable or OK, but it _could_ have a bearing on whether doing something drastic like calling the police or CPS would be the most helpful and effective course of action or not.

Exactly! Just as we can accept that majikfaerie doesn't normally run around beating people with bamboo canes -- we shouldn't be in a hurry to assume this about random strangers who may be having a bad moment with their children.

Of course, a father repeatedly beating a 2yo with a bamboo-cane to make him stop crying, is way more serious than someone having a bad moment with his child. Someone who'd do this is in serious need of immediate intervention, before the child is injured or killed.

But the incident in the doctor's office could easily have been a bad moment.

Quote:

I definitely think we should intervene if we can. I just think we should be very very careful about involving CPS or police in our intervention in most cases, for reasons exactly like this.
That's what I think, too. In the case of the man beating the 2yo, I think the benefits of getting CPS involved would greatly outweigh the risks and the loss of privacy for the family. That child was clearly a child-at-risk.

But most of the "bad-parenting moments" we're likely to witness out in public in the U.S., aren't going to be of this nature, as majikfaerie pointed out herself. So I think the risks would greatly outweigh the benefits, if someone decided to call CPS because a mother slapped her child's hand in a doctor's office. I value my own privacy too much, to be so quick to destroy someone else's.


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## mrspineau

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 









But I don't have a playground or a jungle gym indoors. What's wrong with letting a kid climb on the kitchen table or stand on a chair? It's not like I let him climb on other people's tables. But it's our family's table, it isn't damaging it, and he isn't likely to get hurt, so I guess I just don't see the point of fighting about it nonstop.

(And for my son, an avid climber, it would mean a constant battle to keep him off it. Climb up, grab and redirect, climb up, grab and move to another room, wander back out and climb up, grab and remind him and move him, climb up... Trust me, we have fought this battle before, and DH and I both decided it wasn't worth the energy.)

Yeah, I can understand that. I just meant that in my home, I dont allow kids to be climbing on the furniture. I don't think it is bad or wrong for someone else to decide that it's okay. I certainly don't think that it is going to hurt anyone, and I don't think it is worth a fight. (I have just not had an issue with it) Picking your battles is one of the joys of parenting, right?

And with the whole hand slapping thing, I mean who is to say that on that day that particular mother was just having issues of her own, and maybe she was acting completely out of character? She didn't cause any serious harm to her child, and maybe she has never done it before and will never do it again. Maybe she felt horrible about it and went home and talked it over with a friend. We just don't know. I know that for me, it isn't okay, and so I will choose to make a difference by not using slapping or hitting of any kind as a form of discipline. But it is not my place to say anything to others unless I absolutely know what is going on in their household.


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## Adasmommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Anyway, OP that sure is a hard situation to be in. I admit I have reacted in (negative) emotional ways when I have seen spanking. I am getting better in my approach, as I realize it does put people on the defensive and feeling defensive isn't the way to open someone's mind or heart.

I have had the most success asking a mama if she is having a bad day or trying to empathize. NOT advocating hitting or sympathizing in the way that communicates "yeah, sometimes they need to be hit" -- but *sympathizing in a way that communicates (in a gentle way) that the hitter's behavior isn't acceptable (to me) while also assuming that they don't usually act like this.*

I like something like, "wow it looks like you are having a tough day. Do you need help?" in a genuinely concerned, non threatening way. Then I engage the child if it seems like that will help. It might not change their whole parenting style but at least they know someone is watching and also I think *when they feel heard and validated* (again, not validated in their hitting but in their feelings of frustration or stress) *they usually calm down.
*
*I usually engage a mama (or papa) before it gets to hitting if I see they are becoming frustrated/stressed/upset.* If the child is around my child's age (or younger) I will say a validating/commiserating statement with maybe a veiled piece of advice -- something like "wow, when my daughter was that age the only thing that would comfort her is ____" or spin it into a positive like "wow, I see a singer in your future, what a strong voice!!" (if they are screaming or something). This is more for their benefit, because I think many parents feel like they have to be MORE of a [email protected] in public, lest someone think they are ineffective/bad parent/can't *control* thier child. I try to laugh and smile and engage them before the hitting happens -- and if it has happened I do what I mentioned above.

Hope that helps









Captain Crunchy, I love that your approach to the woman is so GD--I mean, we adults deserve GD too, don't we? Those of us who believe in it, ought to believe in it for all people, IMO! Bolding mine, to emphasize the parts that sounded most like a GD mom helping teach her children not to hit!

If I don't believe in shaming children, at what age do I reckon it's okay to start shaming an 'adult' as so many possible approaches to this woman could have done?

I only read the first three or four pages of this thread, but your original post on page 1 really got to me!


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## laoxinat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
Yeah, I can understand that. I just meant that in my home, I dont allow kids to be climbing on the furniture.

IME, mamas who are able to say "I don't allow..." _generally_ have kiddos who are not high needs/persistent/death defying acrobats







It's important to remember that not all kids accept the "I don't allow" mindset. And it's not because we are not being GD enough, whatever the heck that is. I want to gently remind everyone that it probably has more to do with temperament/personality interplay (parent and child) than anything.


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adasmommy* 
Captain Crunchy, I love that your approach to the woman is so GD--I mean, we adults deserve GD too, don't we? Those of us who believe in it, ought to believe in it for all people, IMO!...

If I don't believe in shaming children, at what age do I reckon it's okay to start shaming an 'adult' as so many possible approaches to this woman could have done?

A great big Yeah, that!


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laoxinat* 
IME, mamas who are able to say "I don't allow..." _generally_ have kiddos who are not high needs/persistent/death defying acrobats







It's important to remember that not all kids accept the "I don't allow" mindset. And it's not because we are not being GD enough, whatever the heck that is. I want to gently remind everyone that it probably has more to do with temperament/personality interplay (parent and child) than anything.

So true!


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## dex_millie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
Someone calling the police in that instance was an incredibly remote option; being as we were living in a very remote place (about 10km from a phone) and living together in a somewhat sustainable organic community (a rainbow gathering, for those that know what that is). Clearly having the police called would have been an unfortunate outcome for everyone. *This was in Thailand. If I called the police to report a guy whipping his kid with a cane, they'd say "so?".*

I was just about to make a point of this. Every country is not like the US. Spanking is seen as the norm, and most police will ignore it or encourage it. I know one of my relatives took their son to the police station when he stole something from a next family member. They just told her to beat the truth out of him. A next women I talked to said some police will beat your child for you. It is the culture. These people just need education on the matter. I know I come from a culture and generations of spankers. It started lessening with my father generation, they do the occasion spanking(and I mean proberly once every few months for something really bad) until a certain age and then they basically GD. That was a step for them considering the spankings they use to recieve.


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## WuWei

Bumping.

Pat


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## Livviesmom0207

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angieluvsramon* 
If I was in a situation where I spanked my childs hand I would hate for cps to come to my door and take my happy healthy children away from their home. Now I agree that spanking isnt right and I myself anm trying to stop spanking my child, but when you see these parents in public, you dont know them or their lifestyles and unless they are truly HARMING their child you should not just report them. A spank on the hand does not constitute as assault. *Do you know how many times I have been cooking and my husband comes and tries to sneek a piece of food and I smacked his hand away???? what about when my husband smacks my butt?? Is that assault too???*







: if that is assault we should have been arrested a long time ago! I agree spanking isnt right but please dont use the assault line. Like I said before if she would have actually hurt the baby then yeah, please report it but a smack on the hand does not call for all that!

No, this isn't assault. It's not done in anger, which is the HUGE difference. Smacking a child's hand may not be the most violent thing, but it's still an abusive act. Any time you strike your child (or anyone) IN ANGER, it's abusive. Period.


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Livviesmom0207* 
No, this isn't assault. It's not done in anger, which is the HUGE difference. Smacking a child's hand may not be the most violent thing, but it's still an abusive act. Any time you strike your child (or anyone) IN ANGER, it's abusive. Period.

But the pro-spanking "experts" always talk about how it's never to be done in anger.

I've yet to figure that one out, because when you're *not* totally angry and stressed out, that means you still have some inner resources left to think creatively about solutions.

Even if there's a parent who can honestly claim that her spankings are always free from anger, I still think it's wrong.


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## RainOrShine

This very thing once happened to me and the results of me interacting were crazy to say the least. I saw a mother hitting her child at the grocery store and it went on until the child was on the ground crying and screaming. I couldn't keep from saying something, so I went over to the lady and said, "I think she gets the picture, you need to calm down." Well these were the famous last words....
The lady looked at me and transfered the hits from her daughter right to my nose. I leaned forward with blood coming out of my "now" broken nose and that's when she kicked me in the face. That's also the last thing I remember. The next thing I know, I come to and there's people all around me staring down at me asking me if I'm OK. I can remember replying, "NO!, No I'm not OK."
Turns out the person that beat the crap out of me was drunk and got pulled over by chance. A police car was passing by as she was tearing out of the parking lot right after she did the job on my face.
So, moral to the story?.... I think if you see something happening and disagree with it so much that you feel you need to do something about it.... go ahead and speak your peace of mind or get involved.... just be prepared to defend your life. People get killed for little these days so be aware at all times.


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## Canadianmommax3

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Would you say the same about a man hitting his wife in public?


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## Canadianmommax3

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RainOrShine* 
This very thing once happened to me and the results of me interacting were crazy to say the least. I saw a mother hitting her child at the grocery store and it went on until the child was on the ground crying and screaming. I couldn't keep from saying something, so I went over to the lady and said, "I think she gets the picture, you need to calm down." Well these were the famous last words....
The lady looked at me and transfered the hits from her daughter right to my nose. I leaned forward with blood coming out of my "now" broken nose and that's when she kicked me in the face. That's also the last thing I remember. The next thing I know, I come to and there's people all around me staring down at me asking me if I'm OK. I can remember replying, "NO!, No I'm not OK."
Turns out the person that beat the crap out of me was drunk and got pulled over by chance. A police car was passing by as she was tearing out of the parking lot right after she did the job on my face.
So, moral to the story?.... I think if you see something happening and disagree with it so much that you feel you need to do something about it.... go ahead and speak your peace of mind or get involved.... just be prepared to defend your life. People get killed for little these days so be aware at all times.









just wow!


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## WuWei

Bumping.

Pat


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## WuWei

Bumping, as we get into the Halloween over-sugared, over chemicalled candy period.

Pat


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