# Is this cruel?



## carolynrosa (Apr 11, 2005)

I usually have to 'walk' my dd in a sling for about 1.5-2 hours everynight to get her to sleep. Rocking doesn't work, only walking around. It takes such a long time, and she tends to wake up when I stop (unless I wait until she's very very asleep). I've been sooo tired!
Lst night, I started the walking, but after about half an hour, I tried laying her down and patting her back. She cried, and it lasted ten awful minutes (I was sosososo tired, I just wanted to see what else might work). Anyway, after ten minutes, she stoppec rying and fell asleep... and stayed asleep! I kept patter har back another five minutes, and then I layed down, too, and we both slep until morning (except for nursing and a diaper change).
My question is this: is it cruel to let her cry for 10-15 mintes to get her to sleep? I did stay with her, and I comforted her by telling her it was okay, and I was with her, but that it was sleepy-time. I would never leaver her alone to cry... But is this cruel? She's only 3 months old, she she doesn't really understand what I was saying, but she did know I was there...
What do you think? Can I try this again tonight and see how it goes? Part of me thinks she'll catch on to the routine and settle down quicker after a night or two... the other part of me thinks I'm copping out and that this is just CIO with an audience....
Please give me some feedback.


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

i know you're tired, but that sounds like cio with an audience...
i nursed or walked my babe to sleep until she was ready to find a new routine. I never tried to enforce one on her cause it didn't feel right. i was extremley sleep deprived for months, but now i know i did what was best for her.
I lknow it's hard, but you wil sleep again.


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Not cruel because you were there and she knew it. Dont underestimate the ability for a young baby to tune in and feel your love with your nearness and your patting. I think she will 'get it' just like she did that time!
I wish i had tried that a bit with my first who cried/screamed if you stopped moving or tried to put him down. He was tough and i do understand how hard it is to just keep walking. For weeks and weeks we walked and walked and it was such a difficult thing to do constantly when you are sooo tired.


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dillonandmarasmom*
i know you're tired, but that sounds like cio with an audience...
i nursed or walked my babe to sleep until she was ready to find a new routine. I never tried to enforce one on her cause it didn't feel right. i was extremley sleep deprived for months, but now i know i did what was best for her.
I lknow it's hard, but you wil sleep again.










Are you kidding? Cio is while the child is ALONE. Certainly we are all entitled to our opinions But hey, The babe knew she was there.. why is there a difference between holding and patting/lying next to? the physical close-ness is there. I 've been tired beyond tired with my first and if this mama is that tired or anywhere near- than please go a little lighter on her. It's not necesary to be a zombie mama with a temper. -certainly not when 10-15 she was soothed.
I'm very extreme in some of my ways but there is something to be said for a childs ability to learn things with the 'guidance' of a loving parent as opposed to "force" as it is being called above.


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## oybaby (Dec 29, 2005)

You sound like a great mom who understands that there needs to be a balance between your needs and those of your baby. Can you go about your business in the evening with her in the sling so that you get things done while she is going off to sleep? Might she stay asleep if you remove her with the sling rather than trying to take her out of the sling? (Perhaps you are doing this.) Is sleeping while the baby sleeps during the day an option? Perhaps you would be less overwhelmingly tired at the end of the day if you had a bit more rest during the day. Is cosleeping and nursing to sleep an option for you? I found this to be the easiest way for all of us to get the sleep we needed. I am not a CIO mom, but there have been times when I have laid down with my son and rubbed his back for a few minutes while he settles into sleep.

Hang in there. Longer stretches and better nights of sleep are in your future.


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## MotheringHeart (Dec 18, 2005)

I don't think this is CIO with an audience at all. Your babe knew that you were right next to her and that you weren't going to leave her. You didn't ignore her crying and (I'm betting) if the crying had gone on for excessively long, you would have picked her up and nursed her or tried to find some way to comfort her. There is no reason for her not to learn that it is alright for her to go to sleep and that you'll be right there for her.

I've used exactly this technique on all of my kids at one point or another in their babyhoods. I never let them CIO, someone is always there making contact with them. They are all very bright, responsive, emotionally available, strong kiddos! I think it sounds like you are doing just the right thing for you AND your baby!


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## carolynrosa (Apr 11, 2005)

Thanks for the responses.
My dd egts super-tired in the evenings, and I think that's why she's so irritable. She has so much excitement in the day, and slthough she naps, by bedtime she's a bit cranky. I let her nurse as much as she wants, (sometimes she eats too much, thows it up, and nurses again), and I lie down with her to nurse, but she cries then, too. Even holding her, she's unhappy at night.
When I patted her to sleep last night, she did cry, but it didn't sound hysterical or pained. I would pick her up immediately if I felt like she was just getting more wound up. It sounded more like a tired, frustrated cry.
Anyway, we'll see how tonight goes. She had a good nap today.


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## Rioe (Jan 12, 2006)

We couldn't even get our little guy to sleep with walking; at the start we had to go up and down stairs to keep him soothed! Sometimes he'd cry even though we were holding him, and it was like he was crying solely because he wasn't asleep. He'd even pause his crying to yawn. We just persisted because the problem was that he hadn't yet learned to get to sleep without conditions being perfect. He was upset because we hadn't put him to sleep, even though we were trying our best. We persisted for the hour or two you describe, and at some point we'd stumble across the perfect pace, or position, or volume of lullaby, and he'd just quiet right down and fall asleep, like we'd found his off switch.

We eventually discovered two things that helped. First of all, he was a terrible back sleeper, but one day he was sleeping with me and I was actually no longer tired, so I slipped out from beside him and he ended up on his belly, still sleeping. It was miraculous to us, that he was still asleep and no one was holding him. I know they say not to, but we had to have him sleep on his tummy just to get time to ourselves and for housework and stuff.

We stopped cosleeping when he learned to roll over, because he was all over the place all night long and we couldn't get any sleep, and it was no longer safe for him to nap in our bed without us. I gradually and gently got him used to falling asleep without being in our arms. I'd hold him till he was quite drowsy, then lay him down, and when he squirmed and complained, I'd pick him up again, and as he got drowsier and drowsier, he stayed down longer and longer before complaining, till eventually he fell asleep with me rubbing his back. It took hours of patience at the start, but over the course of a month or two, bedtime became a reasonable routine.

The rest of bedtime is a very predictable routine for him too. We have a fun bathtime, put on a big diaper that can last all night if it has to, a little baby massage with lotion then we put on his sleeper, then brush his teeth and have some sips of water, then read some stories, then put him in his Gro-Bag (cause he's so squirmy he'd get out of normal blankets) and turn out all the lights, singing the same lullaby every time. We never deviate. If a part of it isn't working, we rewind a little bit and resume. What used to be a two hour ordeal of stairmaster has now become a pleasant bedtime ritual instead, and I think maybe they need a lengthy, predictable series of actions to get them to sleep, and right now, yours is just crying.

I still vividly remember the night we discovered the stairs trick...I'd been trying for ages to get him to sleep, and I was getting too frustrated and decided to give up and make my husband take over instead of playing on his computer. I went downstairs to hand over the crying baby, and he was asleep before I got to the bottom.

And PS - I think if you're actively trying to comfort and soothe your baby even though it's not the method they'd prefer, it's not crying it out.


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## Jenlaana (Oct 28, 2005)

I think there's something to be said for the "type" of cry your baby makes, and that should affect how you handle them. My daughter has a "cranky tired" cry which isn't really a cry at all, but more of a whining, frequently interrupted vocalizing of disproval. She also has an afraid/hurt/truly upset cry. I started responding equally to every single noise and picking her up, walking her, bouncing on the exercise ball etc for every cry. It got to the point that I just couldn't put her down period, unless I was breastfeeding, and I couldn't breastfeed anywhere but our bed. Then, accidentally, I noticed that if she was fussing and I didn't get to her "in time" (meaning under 30 seconds...I'd had an incredibly important phone call that I absolutely had to take one day about the house we're buying) she'd stop and go to sleep. Now I'm not talking about CIO in the dark, scared and alone. I'm talking about just fussy noises, and asleep inside of 5 minutes, someplace quiet, but with me near by.

If your babe refuses to sleep for hours because they are overtired and overstimulated, I honestly think it is less healthy to continue that method than to lay down WITH your babe, if they fall asleep inside of 10 minutes with you comforting them. IMO it says that obviously they did not need you to walk them, they needed sleep. Have you tried laying down with your babe a little earlier? maybe it would be easier on them if you did it before they hit that point of being so upset?


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

My dd needed to be walked or nursed down, every night, no exceptions.

With my ds, I tried to get him to sleep this way just because that's what I thought I had to do to get a baby to sleep. He would cry and cry and cry. Then, one time I set him down so I could go to the bathroom. He cranked for a couple minutes, then fell right asleep. For some babies, I think the constant patting/rocking/walking/bouncing is way overstimulating. I felt so bad, I was doing all these things to get him to sleep when all he wanted was for me to put him down and leave him the heck alone for a few minutes.
Now, I usually lay down with him, sometimes he wants to nurse down, sometimes he just wants me to pat him or stroke his cheek, and sometimes he just rolls over and passes out.
You're not being cruel.


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## turtlewomyn (Jun 5, 2005)

I don't think that is cruel, and I think Dr. Sears even talks about just being there for your babe if they need to cry. Our dd HATES to go to sleep and fights it all the way, even while rubbing her eyes and looking SO tired. sometimes we will both lie down with her and talk her to sleep as she fusses (uhhh uhhh uhhh uhhh) when we know that she has had plenty to eat and the only reason she isn't asleep is that she doesn't want to go to sleep!


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## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

I think what you sis was fine. I have done it myself. With my little darlings laying down and I was either rubbing their tummies or back or patting them. Sometimes they do cry and all you can do is your best. I personally pick them up after about five minutes and try it again, but that is my DC and me not your DC and you. It is different for everybody. If you had left the babe alone to cry and didn't touch her at all I'd say Bad mama, but this is not the case. Sending sleep vibes your way. Good luck tonight.


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## spirit4ever (Nov 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carolynrosa*
Thanks for the responses.
My dd egts super-tired in the evenings, and I think that's why she's so irritable. She has so much excitement in the day, and slthough she naps, by bedtime she's a bit cranky. I let her nurse as much as she wants, (sometimes she eats too much, thows it up, and nurses again), and I lie down with her to nurse, but she cries then, too. Even holding her, she's unhappy at night.
When I patted her to sleep last night, she did cry, but it didn't sound hysterical or pained. I would pick her up immediately if I felt like she was just getting more wound up. It sounded more like a tired, frustrated cry.
Anyway, we'll see how tonight goes. She had a good nap today.

My 2nd ds was like that, I spent 2 hrs every evening with him in the sling walking around the house, it got better as he got older, I believe by the time he was 4 months old I no longer had to do that







(or atleast if I did it wasn't often)... And I don't think it's cio either if you're lying right there, and they know it







I still try to lie down w/ my ds, and he's 12 months, but I can only handle a few minutes of crying before I start to get really angry, which is when I scoop him back up and bring him to his daddy..or do something else..

Good Luck


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## QDB (Aug 14, 2003)

Didn't want to read and not respond -

I think you are thoughtful mamma who is doing her best and loves her babe.

But have you thought about some kind of energy work or chiro? It might help. or a little rescue remedy at least for you.

I walked my ds at that age every night around and around and around and around our neigborhood. He was only calm outside the house.

Now he is getting close to 3 and it still takes him almost 2 hours to calm down for sleep but now we can play hide and seek or do floor puzzles so it is (most of the time) less intense.


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carolynrosa*
Thanks for the responses.
My dd egts super-tired in the evenings, and I think that's why she's so irritable. She has so much excitement in the day, and slthough she naps, by bedtime she's a bit cranky. I let her nurse as much as she wants, (sometimes she eats too much, thows it up, and nurses again), and I lie down with her to nurse, but she cries then, too. Even holding her, she's unhappy at night.
When I patted her to sleep last night, she did cry, but it didn't sound hysterical or pained. I would pick her up immediately if I felt like she was just getting more wound up. It sounded more like a tired, frustrated cry.
Anyway, we'll see how tonight goes. She had a good nap today.

sounds like you are doing a super job.


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## Isis (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dillonandmarasmom*
i know you're tired, but that sounds like cio with an audience...
i nursed or walked my babe to sleep until she was ready to find a new routine. I never tried to enforce one on her cause it didn't feel right. i was extremley sleep deprived for months, but now i know i did what was best for her.
I lknow it's hard, but you wil sleep again.










I agree. 3 months is so very young to expect to CIO in arms to sleep. IMO it's just too young. I know how tiring it can be but some babies just need that walking down to get them to sleep. Can your dh help with this or another helper?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

You could try the No-Cry Sleep Solution. That's kind of the same, but picking her up if she starts to cry, then once she's soothed, trying to sneak her back down.

I know you didn't ask for advice, but why don't you start the whole process 1-2 hours earlier? Just a thought, before she gets overtired. Might make a world of difference.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

I agree with a lot of the pp's - what you did is not CIO. If she's crying with you and you are actively trying to comfort her (whether you're vertical or horizontal at the time), then you're not doing CIO, imo. Babies cry, that's a fact of life. I do agree that starting the bedtime routine earlier might help - and nursing to sleep was a life-saver for me. Good luck


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## birthjunkie27 (Jul 6, 2005)

I completely disagree that you are letting her CIO (with an audience). You are right there with her, comforting her. She knows it.


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## Isis (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *birthjunkie27*
I completely disagree that you are letting her CIO (with an audience). You are right there with her, comforting her. She knows it.

I have to disagree. At 3 months, she doesn't comprehend it. If she wants to be walked to sleep and that's what works, then that's what it is. It's a stage. If you pick her up and she stops crying, then you are tending to her needs. If you let her lay there and cry, you are letting her CIO, whether in arms or not. I just think 3 months is WAY too young to let her CIO in arms or any other way. You're right though in that sometimes babies do just need to cry but if you can stop it, then you should. If you've tried everything and still they cry in your arms- then that's different b/c there is NO solution. Ya know? Anyways, that is just my opinion like I said







They all go through it in one way or another... unless you're one of the lucky mamas who has perfectly behaved babies who sleep well :nana:


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Isis*
I have to disagree. At 3 months, she doesn't comprehend it. If she wants to be walked to sleep and that's what works, then that's what it is. It's a stage. If you pick her up and she stops crying, then you are tending to her needs. If you let her lay there and cry, you are letting her CIO, whether in arms or not. I just think 3 months is WAY too young to let her CIO in arms or any other way. You're right though in that sometimes babies do just need to cry but if you can stop it, then you should. If you've tried everything and still they cry in your arms- then that's different b/c there is NO solution. Ya know? Anyways, that is just my opinion like I said







They all go through it in one way or another... unless you're one of the lucky mamas who has perfectly behaved babies who sleep well :nana:

oKAY, as i pointed out before and is kind of the middle ground in the dept of sleep dealing: She senses your presence, it worked well, she calmed in a fair amount of time. Babies arent completely void of comprehension. I've heard enough stories about different babies tempermants as well as varying types of methods. I used to not think a baby should cry at all for sleeping , but now i beleive they can get in habits if we allow it. a long time ago it was looked on as if the child manipulated us but instead i've come to see that the child is a certain type and what works for one might be a little walking and then a time to lay down and be patted. I actually did this with my dd-- my second after a child who Demanded i walk, rock, move, continuously and Still only slept for half an hour at a time during the day *he just wasnt a sleeper and needed all the help he could get. I was always listening closely to her needs and attempting to get her to sleep in a way which didnt mean i rock her forever. It worked. It also took time, and I was not Cio.

Cio is walking away and letting them cry alone.


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## MotheringHeart (Dec 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carolynrosa*
Thanks for the responses.
My dd egts super-tired in the evenings, and I think that's why she's so irritable. She has so much excitement in the day, and slthough she naps, by bedtime she's a bit cranky. I let her nurse as much as she wants, (sometimes she eats too much, thows it up, and nurses again), and I lie down with her to nurse, but she cries then, too. Even holding her, she's unhappy at night.
When I patted her to sleep last night, she did cry, but it didn't sound hysterical or pained. I would pick her up immediately if I felt like she was just getting more wound up. It sounded more like a tired, frustrated cry.
Anyway, we'll see how tonight goes. She had a good nap today.

My DS was kind of this way. He used to scream for hours every night (even while we were holding him. He would get so overtired and so overstimulated that he wouldn't want to nurse, be held, be put down, rocked, walked, pouched, sang to.....etc etc etc. It was awful. There were times when I put him down and patted him while he screamed because I was at my wits end and didn't know what else to do. He eventually grew out of it (I believe it was an overstimulation/tired/colicky problem) and now is an amazingly good sleeper.

Point of all this is that I think you have to do what you are comfortable with, while still meeting babies needs. I think this is a great way to get her to sleep, while still providing her with the knowledge that you are right there with her!

Good for you!


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

No, Mama, you are not cruel.

IME with my ds . . . he actually outgrew wanting to be carried in the sling when he was sleepy and I didn't really know what to do. It was so miserable getting him to sleep until I discovered that he 1) liked to be on his stomach as it seemed to soothe him and 2) like to be patted on the back, have his head stroked and sung to even though he is cranky and crying. This is how I put him to sleep each and every time he needs to go down--for naps or for the night except if he wants to nurse to sleep. Either way, he needs to be in the bed for his sleep to happen. I realized that when he is tired he doesn't like to be handled all that much and he has a serious preference for where he'd like to sleep (not in my arms anymore). . . that being said, we're off to nap.









As long as you're doing the absolute best you can, well, what more can you do?

Blessings!


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## alybeans (May 22, 2005)

I think its fine. My problem with CIO is that you are ignoring the needs of your child, which generally means the need for your presence, comfort, nursing, etc. If you are lying there with your baby comforting/touching him/her, willing to nurse, etc you aren't ignoring the babies needs. I don't think a baby has a fundamental need for motion. It could be that your baby is tired and just has trouble falling asleep and the motion of walking distracts him/her, but like I said I don't think motion is a fundamental need of a baby. FWIW I think having to walk for 1.5hrs+ is extreme, I would do that before I'd leave a baby to CIO alone, but if you can comfort your baby to sleep in 10 minutes then that's what I would do.

My daughter fights sleep and sometimes no matter how exhausted she is she'll cry if she knows I'm trying to put her to sleep. I know when this happens that if we go downstairs to play she'll stop crying but I also know that she's exhausted and needs to go to sleep so I will let her get out of bed but we stay in her room even if she isn't happy about that. We can't always give them what they'd prefer but we can give them what they need in a gentle loving way.

HUGS!


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alybeans*
We can't always give them what they'd prefer but we can give them what they need in a gentle loving way.

I think this is very true, more with an older child than a 3 mo, but still very true. I find CIO one of the most heartless ways to approach bedtime, but I also get annoyed when people put any crying at bedtime into the "CIO" category. Sometimes DS gets so frustrated with me trying to get him to sleep (he's 17 mos) that he cries to get the frustration out before he can calm down. Now that he understands when I say "it's time for us to go to bed", it's getting a little better.
Even very young babies know when their mother is lying next to them and touching and comforting them in a loving way - even if they are crying, it's not CIO and not cruel by any means.


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## Isis (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lauraess*

Cio is walking away and letting them cry alone.


We can just agree to disagree.







IMO, CIO (in arms or not) is when we allow our child to cry instead of doing what it takes to get them to sleep (or whatever the case may be). I honestly think 3 months old is too young to allow to cry (even with you being present) if there's something you can do to ease them. Some babies need that walking stimuli to go to sleep. I'm not talking about crying out of frustration, I'm talking about crying because the baby wants to be walked to sleep rather than just laying in the bed falling asleep. I would do it rather than let my baby CIO (in arms or otherwise) but like I said, it's JMO and that is what the OP asked for.


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lauraess*
Are you kidding? Cio is while the child is ALONE. Certainly we are all entitled to our opinions But hey, The babe knew she was there.. why is there a difference between holding and patting/lying next to? the physical close-ness is there. I 've been tired beyond tired with my first and if this mama is that tired or anywhere near- than please go a little lighter on her. It's not necesary to be a zombie mama with a temper. -certainly not when 10-15 she was soothed.
I'm very extreme in some of my ways but there is something to be said for a childs ability to learn things with the 'guidance' of a loving parent as opposed to "force" as it is being called above.

Nope, not kidding in the least. I am abit surprised that so many are not seeing this as crying it out. I believe some books refer to it as a modified version of CIO. I did not say it was cruel as that would depend on the emotions going on in the babe, and how would I/we know. But, if it walks like a duck...
I have seen this method on the nanny show a couple of times, though more on the side of ignoring the babe. I don't think it's cruel, but I do think it is only one way to get a babe so exhausted that sleep overcomes all else. I walked/rocked/nursed whatever I could do for my babe cause I did not feel like I could let him down. I don't know how one could surmise that an infant (3 months is sooo young) could understand your being there but not holding, comforting with more effort.
Sorry that this comes across as harsh, but at 3 months, lots of babes are still going through so much trauma release from birth that crying IN YOUR ARMS is vital.
Be strong! You will be rewarded with a happy babe who kn ows you will go to the ends of the earth to make things okay!


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Oh, and I believe there is a HUGE difference between patting and holding...are YOU kidding? Imagine if you were totally upset about something you were unable to communicate to the one you love and so needed to be held, hugged, even rocked. But, due to being tired, your loved one did not get up to come to your aid, rather patted you on the back and told you you would be okay. Would that suffice? I would be left wanting more comfort...









I apologize for my blunt tone, but it sure sounds like a lot of mamas are saying it's okay to just do the minimum to get your babe to stop crying. Afterall, it is really exhaustion and (probably) giving up that causes the babe to fall asleep--not comfort.


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## HRC121799 (Aug 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Isis*
We can just agree to disagree.







IMO, CIO (in arms or not) is when we allow our child to cry instead of doing what it takes to get them to sleep (or whatever the case may be). I honestly think 3 months old is too young to allow to cry (even with you being present) if there's something you can do to ease them. Some babies need that walking stimuli to go to sleep. I'm not talking about crying out of frustration, I'm talking about crying because the baby wants to be walked to sleep rather than just laying in the bed falling asleep. I would do it rather than let my baby CIO (in arms or otherwise) but like I said, it's JMO and that is what the OP asked for.









Ditto this!


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## birthjunkie27 (Jul 6, 2005)

So at what point is it ok to allow the baby to cry for a bit (assuming all needs have been met- fully tummy, dry diaper, etc...) with a comforting mama by her side? 6mos? 9mos? 1yr?

My Ds would not fall asleep laying in bed until after his second birthday! Up until then Dh would rock him (standing up) EVERY night, for 30min-1hr. There just comes a point when enough is enough. Ds was getting bigger and bigger, and Dh's back was hurting more and more. So, we decided it was time to lay in bed with him while he cried himself to sleep, rubbing his back and comforting him. It took a few weeks, but he eventually got used to it.

All I'm saying is that habits are hard to break. Yes, 3 mos is very young...but like I said, at what point is it ok?


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

I don't think this has been said before, but it relates a bit to the whole CIO/Not CIO debate.
Aletha Solter has a wonderful book called The Aware Baby and in it she speaks of the need to cry (in supportive, loving arms) to relieve stress.
I'd say more, but I'm sick and pretty out of it. It's a very worthwhile book to read.


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *birthjunkie27*
So at what point is it ok to allow the baby to cry for a bit (assuming all needs have been met- fully tummy, dry diaper, etc...) with a comforting mama by her side? 6mos? 9mos? 1yr?

My Ds would not fall asleep laying in bed until after his second birthday! Up until then Dh would rock him (standing up) EVERY night, for 30min-1hr. There just comes a point when enough is enough. Ds was getting bigger and bigger, and Dh's back was hurting more and more. So, we decided it was time to lay in bed with him while he cried himself to sleep, rubbing his back and comforting him. It took a few weeks, but he eventually got used to it.

All I'm saying is that habits are hard to break. Yes, 3 mos is very young...but like I said, at what point is it ok?

Good question! That is the concern i have and having been through the sleep issues of one and then another- I still believe in a moms ability and childs ability to work it out; meaning that like the op said she 'tried' it out and he babe cried a bit , she - mom there at the moment who had always gone the extra mile and was very connected- took the cries to be not over the top , and soon babe slept.

If we consider the different tempermants of children , their fussiness, their thresholds, thier different cries, we can become good responders in different ways than walking around for and hour or more and being afraid once you put the babe down after all that he wakes. With my dd i experimented a bit and learned what worked, a little rocking a little patting, a little talking and singing quietly. I used the word 'guid'e as opposed to the word 'force' because our perspective really is what matters. If we always think that we must pick up and hold no matter what there is no room for experimentation in the sleep dept and thus no guidance.

And yes-- habits- to the posters who believe in walking no mater what or rocking-- have you ever rocked while holding a 2.5 yr old??? eek-- the back!


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

So Carolynrosa: How is it going anyway????


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

What I heard from your post is that you were exhausted, and *your needs matter too!*

Alot depends on the cry, imo. Was the baby screaming, upset, choking and gagging? Or was the baby whimpering and fussy, doing an overtired cry? Only you know the answer to that, and only you know what your instincts are saying about it.

But at face value I am picturing an exhausted mom trying to find something that works, a fussy baby, and an excellent compromise. You stayed there with her, tuned into her, and you helped her transition to sleep. To me, there is nothing at all wrong with what you did!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Isis*
If you've tried everything and still they cry in your arms- then that's different b/c there is NO solution.

Yep, I agree. I'm not saying it's CRUEL, exactly, as that's a pretty strong word, but yeah, if you can get them to stop crying, I think it's best to do so, if at all possible.


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lauraess*

And yes-- habits- to the posters who believe in walking no mater what or rocking-- have you ever rocked while holding a 2.5 yr old??? eek-- the back!










hmm, i guess it never developed a habit with us cause at about 8 months ds gave cues that he was ready to lie down, listen to stories and songs and be lu0lled 0to sl2eep2...all depends on the baby, i guess.

i can see the other side of the coin, the *habit* you speak of could also be laying down, whimpering and then drifting off. I think it is what the mom is comfortable with, and I was not ever comfy with my little one sounding overtired and just lying there on his own, me patting him, etc. I could do more to help him drift off.


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## Isis (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dillonandmarasmom*
Oh, and I believe there is a HUGE difference between patting and holding...are YOU kidding? Imagine if you were totally upset about something you were unable to communicate to the one you love and so needed to be held, hugged, even rocked. But, due to being tired, your loved one did not get up to come to your aid, rather patted you on the back and told you you would be okay. Would that suffice? I would be left wanting more comfort...









I apologize for my blunt tone, but it sure sounds like a lot of mamas are saying it's okay to just do the minimum to get your babe to stop crying. Afterall, it is really exhaustion and (probably) giving up that causes the babe to fall asleep--not comfort.

Exactly! The OP wasn't holding the baby while crying- she just patted the back. Big difference. I'm not saying it's cruel- I just think it's a lighter version of CIO. I hope the baby gets some much needed rest, along with the mama!


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dillonandmarasmom*
hmm, i guess it never developed a habit with us cause at about 8 months ds gave cues that he was ready to lie down, listen to stories and songs and be lu0lled 0to sl2eep2...all depends on the baby, i guess.

i can see the other side of the coin, the *habit* you speak of could also be laying down, whimpering and then drifting off. I think it is what the mom is comfortable with, and I was not ever comfy with my little one sounding overtired and just lying there on his own, me patting him, etc. I could do more to help him drift off.

Exactly why i am stating my experience because, whether it was a habit or not--because my son also required us to walk, move, constantly for over an hour- and while we met his needs in everyway or else he would scream- it was a lot harder to do when he weighed 20+ lbs.
If you are answering that you did not have to ever rock /walk a large baby every night than i guess you only have that experience to go from.


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Isis*
Exactly! The OP wasn't holding the baby while crying- she just patted the back. Big difference. I'm not saying it's cruel- I just think it's a lighter version of CIO. I hope the baby gets some much needed rest, along with the mama!

So the difference is that phsically *You detirmine that surrounding arms are 'better'+ more consoling than a patting loving hand AND do not overlook the soothing comforting words(?)- which i believe can convey lots of love and trust to an infant. She did not JUST pat the back.

The baby did get rest--- faster than it would have otherwise with another hour of walking.

let me tell you again: I did the walking, boucing, singing, looking at the same old things over and over in the darkend room while totally and completely exhausted and wondering "Is this it???!!! what am i doing wrong?"
I also rocked my second child a lot, and gave her an opportunity to lie down whle I was there. if she cried for too long i rocked her more. I did not take the easy route with her. And i know this mama is not doing the minimum (what a mean thing to say too) for her child. HONESTLY I wish i had her sense with my first.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dillonandmarasmom*
Oh, and I believe there is a HUGE difference between patting and holding...are YOU kidding? Imagine if you were totally upset about something you were unable to communicate to the one you love and so needed to be held, hugged, even rocked. But, due to being tired, your loved one did not get up to come to your aid, rather patted you on the back and told you you would be okay. Would that suffice? I would be left wanting more comfort...









I apologize for my blunt tone, but it sure sounds like a lot of mamas are saying it's okay to just do the minimum to get your babe to stop crying. Afterall, it is really exhaustion and (probably) giving up that causes the babe to fall asleep--not comfort.

It is not every single time that I am upset about something that I want to be held, hugged or rocked. Sometimes I'd prefer if my loved one would just pat me on the back and remind me that it's okay. Sometimes I need that space, I need to not feel smothered, to feel what I am feeling. I don't know . . . so in some cases, patting me on the back, staying with me is more needed then being held. Every baby is different . . . I stumbled upon the fact that holding my ds sometimes only helped him stay awake (even though he was clearly tired)--it helped him fight his sleep and he became even more irritated. When I lay him down, he still fusses and cries but he is able to relax and go to sleep much more quickly than me carrying him around and trying to soothe him. I too discovered this when I was completely exhausted. I've come to learn exactly when carrying him will be useful and when laying him down will do the trick. Maybe this is the case with the OP's baby and I too think it's rather mean spirited to suggest that anyone here is saying it's okay to just do the minimum to get your baby to stop crying and go to sleep. You do what works the best for the baby and what helps you keep your sanity too. I think I'm humble enough to say I'm still learning what works best for all of us.


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## carolynrosa (Apr 11, 2005)

Thanks for ALL the responses. I feel sorta both ways about ti. I feel like it may be a bit cruel, but I feel like she just can't get to sleep without the venting. That being said, the night before last, she fell asleep after crying for about five minutes (while my husband rocked her on his chest. She didn't do the constant frantic nursing-signal she usually does with me- I guess because he doesn't smell like milk?). Anyway, she transferred easily to bed, and I stayed with her.

Last night, she was very tired again (long grocery shopping trip in the afternoon).
She fell asleep while walking back and forth (about 20 min), but woke when I transferred her to bed. I tried to nurse her, but she cried even while nursing. I patted her back a few min, tried nursing again, patted her, nursed again (after 45 seconds of nursing she'd cry again)... after what felt like longer, but was only 12 minutes (I timed it), she settled into nursing and fell asleep. I stayed with her, and we slept through the night (except for nursing and a diaper change).

I was reading some No Cry Sleep Solution info online today, and I decided to try to get her to bed earlier. Also, I'm trying to have her nap more regularly in the day. I don't like the idea of scheduling her, but when I saw she was tired today at 2:30, I layed with her (she did the nurse and cry pattern for 7 or 8 min), and then she slept. I crept out of bed after 15 min, but she woke 10 min later. I popper her into the wrap, ans she's been asleep while I prepare dinner since then. I'm debating waking her up, so she can go to bed again at 7 or so.

I'm hoping that with two semi-regular naps in the day and an earlier bedtime, maybe she will get to sleep easier. I'm not looking forward to going to bed at 7 myself, though, but she wakes up if she's alone... sometimes after 5 mintues, somtimes after 30... still. She can sleep in the wrap in the day pretty well, because I move a lot. But in the evenings, I tend to sit down (for dinner, and to relax), and that means she doesn't sleep in the wrap.

Any ideas for keeping her asleep once she's down, but so I can leave the room and get some things down???

Also, again, thanks for the replies. Even the ones who feel that it IS still CIO. I did ask for feedback, and I appreciate the honesty. That's why I asked here. God knows no one at BabyCenter.com would be that honest! lol


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

I am glad you are listening to your gut and it sounds like it's getting better. Can your DH take her for sometime so you can get some rest? That always helped me!

Keep up the great mama'ing!


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## Grace and Granola (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rootzdawta*
I stumbled upon the fact that holding my ds sometimes only helped him stay awake (even though he was clearly tired)--it helped him fight his sleep and he became even more irritated. When I lay him down, he still fusses and cries but he is able to relax and go to sleep much more quickly than me carrying him around and trying to soothe him. I too discovered this when I was completely exhausted. I've come to learn exactly when carrying him will be useful and when laying him down will do the trick.

This is exactly the case with my ds also, whom I have rocked/bounced/walked for hours on end for the past 5 months. It is only recently that I discovered that sometimes he just wants to be put down. And yes, he does fuss and even cry a bit at first, but then calms down and falls asleep...and I am right there beside him the whole time. And I did discover this out of sheer exhaustion. What's a mother to do when you are doing EVERYTHING you can think of to get babe to sleep only to continue to resist and cry in arms....you set baby down to give your back a break and see what happens. I can't believe it is better to cry in arms for an hour than to cry for a few minutes while lying down on the bed when that is clearly what is needed. And it is clear because the baby falls asleep whereas they were not falling asleep before. And I'm sure, based on the fact that the OP is asking, and that she is on this board, that her baby was not screaming and choking until she passed out from utter exhaustion.

I would definitely say that the OP should not be labeled as CRUEL.


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## MyZoeJane (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dillonandmarasmom*
i know you're tired, but that sounds like cio with an audience...
i nursed or walked my babe to sleep until she was ready to find a new routine. I never tried to enforce one on her cause it didn't feel right. i was extremley sleep deprived for months, but now i know i did what was best for her.
I lknow it's hard, but you wil sleep again.











Oh, puhleeze. Comeon! If she is touching and soothing her baby, she's hardly letting her CIO!


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Carolyn! You and your baby are gorgeous!!!! sooo sweet!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

How about keeping her in the sling and sitting down, in the rocker or in bed (with pillow propping up your back); and soothe and comfort her?

I don't think you need to be walking; but I agree that in arms may be more comforting to her. Some babies do not like the overstimulation of motion, most do like the warmth of mama, shusshing sounds and/or the rhythm of motion though. And the snugness of the sling is generally comforting and settling for the baby. Do set her down at ~exactly 10 minutes after she is asleep. That floppy-limb, deep sleep cycle is when it is easiest to set the baby down, I found. And then keep a hand on her to settle her, continue the shusshing and patting to keep from altering too many variables at once. And gradually remove yourself.

I *highly* recommend The No Cry Sleep Solution for more sleep association ideas. It saved my sanity. Sleep deprivation doesn't make you a healthier mama. Sleep when she sleeps during the day, rather than running yourself down to exhaustion at night.

Best wishes,

Pat


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## Arwensmommy (Dec 3, 2005)

Glad it seems to be getting a bit better. It's tough to get a non-napper to nap, isn't it? I'm going through the same thing and I'm also using a few of the No Cry Sleep Solution ideas. Good luck, Carolyn, and keep up the great work!


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I don't think it's cruel at all. I wanted to ask, though, if she might have some reflux issues since she's crying when nursing laying down?

My daughter did great when she was upright, but laying down, especially nursing laying down made her very uncomfortable. I found that I needed to sit up for nighttime nuring sessions and hold her up for about 15 minutes after she finished, or she'd spit up a lot and be very uncomfortable.

There was a period of time, maybe 2 months to 4 months or so, where she also cried every night, no matter what, for about 20 minutes. We tried everything we could think of, but nothing worked two nights in a row. It was not a miracle cure by any means, but the baby massage from Sears' book helped more consistently than anything else. I think it was largely an adjustment to life outside the womb










No, I don't think that holding and patting is crying it out. CIO is abandonment in my opinion. So the Nanny 911 thing where parents don't respond to children even when they're in the same room I do consider CIO. But responding to the baby positively and sensitively, even if it isn't what they most want at that moment, is not abandonment, not CIO, and not cruel in my opinion.


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## carolynrosa (Apr 11, 2005)

EviesMom- she nurses lying down all through the night, once she's asleep, without problems, so I think that means no reflux??

So after getting her to sleep today and wearing her in my wrap to keep her asleep... she slept for 5 hours!!! And I had to wake her up finally! She ate a bunch, and now she's wide awake! It'll be a long night, I'm afraid, seeing as it's 9:30, and she's only been awake for two hours!

Maybe I should have waked her earlier... I just figured if she was sleeping that much, she must need it. She's back in the wrap now... maybe she'll get bored and sleep again sometime tonight.... fingers crossed!


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## Tori Gollihugh (Jun 16, 2005)

It doesn't sounds cruel to me at all. Leaving your babe to cry on their own is the rough kind... and I know from experience. However, regardless of how you manage to deal with sleeping issues, there is something to commend in knowing yourself and your limits. Overexhaustion and fatigue to the extent you sound like you felt it can lead to much worse things than patting your baby's back while they fuss off to sleep! It is hard to have a baby cry, but it really sounds like your DC just needs that time to fuss it out. I realize now that CIO is the only way mine would go to sleep on her own because she had SO much pent up emotional energy. She's always been a really intense baby and very "in control" during the day. That sounds odd, but it's the only way I know how to describe it. Anyway... I think there are lots of children who need to have that time to just RELEASE emotion. I know about once a month I need to release through a good cry... and when I was younger it was more frequent. This is pretty choppy... incoherent thoughts just pouring out. I hope you can at least get that I think you've done wonderfully being there with your babe and it's NOT CIO with an audience! You were comforting her to the best of your ability. It's really rough when there are some mommas here that are so hard on others for the choices made.







Good luck in continuing to help your DC sleep!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carolynrosa*
Also, again, thanks for the replies. Even the ones who feel that it IS still CIO. I did ask for feedback, and I appreciate the honesty. That's why I asked here. God knows no one at BabyCenter.com would be that honest! lol

Well, now that I hear this, I say it isn't CIO, like I originally said. I didn't realize that your baby was crying while you were rocking her, too. I thought she was happy until you laid her down.

I think you'll get some good ideas in the NCSS. IMO, respecting your baby's rhythms is not the same as "scheduling" them. And everyone likes a little rhythm to their day, right?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carolynrosa*
So after getting her to sleep today and wearing her in my wrap to keep her asleep... she slept for 5 hours!!! And I had to wake her up finally!

Why? Was she a premie? Is she underweight? Or do you mean she woke up when you took her out of the wrap?


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## carolynrosa (Apr 11, 2005)

She was a preemie, but she is not underweight at all now... It was just a very long nap, and I worried that if I didn't wake her up (which was just taking her out of the wrap- that wakes her up), she might sleep until 9 at night and be up all night.... I was worrying that I might ruin her day/night cycle that way. I debated waking her. I felt like it was mean to not let her sleep... but as I said, I'd hate her to get on a pattern of being up at night and sleeping all afternoon...
She's been up 2.5 hours now, and she does seem to be getting a little sleepy in the wrap. I'll feed her in bed when she eats next and pray that she falls asleep. We'll see.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

You weren't cruel. You can very quickly tell the difference btw truly upset cries and tired almost-asleep cries. Laying next to her and patting her is a fine way to deal with it. It sounds like maybe she is overtired? Can you take naps with her in the daytime, and then sneak away when she is asleep?


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