# Personally witnessed the "Then I'll Leave Without You" discipine technique today



## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

And let me just say























Less than a 3 yr old. Playground. Mother wants to leave, after only being there about 5 minutes. I wanted to scoop up this little girl and take her home with us.


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## tiffany21074 (Jan 22, 2006)

eventually mom will figure out that that mean technique will quit working, and the child will say, "fine" and keep playing! It is shame she couldn't try a little harder to find another way with her child.


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## alley cat (Mar 18, 2006)

Gosh you make me feel really bad, I have done that. It works, and I never would really leave without them. Why do you think it's so bad?


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alley cat*
Gosh you make me feel really bad, I have done that. It works, and I never would really leave without them. Why do you think it's so bad?









Well. If you wouldn't do it, why would you threaten it? And why would you feel the need to play on their fear of abandonment in order to get them to go with you? I don't understand.

I have three children, right now, they are ages 2.5-7 yrs. We have never used this technique to get them to leave anywhere. That is not to say that we always have laughing, enjoyable departures from places like the park. There are days when no matter what, it's time to go and that's it. But I give them plenty of warning, and remind them, etc. There have been times when I have carried a crying child to the car, but they were never crying because I threatened to leave them....they were disappointed because they were not getting what they wanted and that feeling was validated. But mostly, it's a game. Let's see who can get to the sidewalk the quickest? Can you hop to the car? Can you skip to the car? Let's all hop like Kangaroos. I wonder if I can find 5 leaves on the sidewalk.

There are lots of ways to get your children to leave the park, playground, etc, without threatening to leave them there. And, like the pp said, what would you do if you said "Then I'm leaving without you" and your child said "fine" and continued playing? You wouldn't really leave, so now, you look like you don't follow through on what you say.

I'm not trying to be harsh. Really. I'm just trying to understand.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

How sad for that child! I would never threaten my children with abandonment.


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

I get sad when I see this one. Even if mom doesn't mean it, the child may fear abandonment. Five minutes at the playground? Oh, I wonder why she didn't want to leave! Maybe mom needs better planning to give the child more time to play. Any child would be reluctant to leave after such a short time. Personally, I would skip it if I could only stay 5 minutes. I try to plan at least an hour when we go. By then, they have had plenty of time to play and are ready to leave.


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## alley cat (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APMom98*
Well. If you wouldn't do it, why would you threaten it? And why would you feel the need to play on their fear of abandonment in order to get them to go with you? I don't understand.

I have three children, right now, they are ages 2.5-7 yrs. We have never used this technique to get them to leave anywhere. That is not to say that we always have laughing, enjoyable departures from places like the park. There are days when no matter what, it's time to go and that's it. But I give them plenty of warning, and remind them, etc. There have been times when I have carried a crying child to the car, but they were never crying because I threatened to leave them....they were disappointed because they were not getting what they wanted and that feeling was validated. But mostly, it's a game. Let's see who can get to the sidewalk the quickest? Can you hop to the car? Can you skip to the car? Let's all hop like Kangaroos. I wonder if I can find 5 leaves on the sidewalk.

There are lots of ways to get your children to leave the park, playground, etc, without threatening to leave them there. And, like the pp said, what would you do if you said "Then I'm leaving without you" and your child said "fine" and continued playing? You wouldn't really leave, so now, you look like you don't follow through on what you say.

I'm not trying to be harsh. Really. I'm just trying to understand.

That's ok . I am learning here and I know some things I did in the past weren't right. I have only done that in frustration after not getting them to come usually when we are leaving to go somewhere. I usually say [ not nastily] ok then I'm off then and turn to the car, that gets them moving fast , I have carried a crying child to a car too and don't see that that is anymore gentle than a quick I'm off then. Far better than mothers I know who chase and threaten I'm going to smack and then hearing them smack and the child crying. A 3 year old I know gets that all the time when it is time to leave school after pick up time.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

We were picking blueberries last year when a woman threatened a child in this way. My daughter was frightened and worried for the child and asked me if the woman would really leave the child. I said, "No, she's lying to her to scare her to get her to do what she wants." My daughter said, "Then she's not a mommy."

I always wonder if people realize the "collateral damage" they cause when they issue their threats where other children can hear. Before that it had never occured to my daughter that parents might up and leave their 3 year olds somewhere, or that they might lie to them to scare them.

My then 4 year old insisted on following them to make sure that the woman did not leave her child. Her sense of responsibility for others and empathy for another child impressed me.


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## DBZ (Aug 9, 2005)

I used to have poor parenting examples around me. I've done this before until someone gently pointed out that it could create abandonment issues. After that I started giving my kids warnings. I'd tell them "we are leaving in 10 minutes" and then remind them at 5, 3, and 1. Then I'd tell them it was time to go. Giving them this transition time made leaving a whole lot easier.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Okay, well this is one of those things that I don't think is the end of the world. I wouldn't do, "I'll leave without you," because it's a lie and it's scary. I have done, "Mama's leaving now." I'd try to get her to come, or pick her up if she refuses. Kids need to know they don't get to make the decisions like adults do, becoz the little buggers need us to take care of them.


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## DBZ (Aug 9, 2005)

Oh I just remembered something terrible and I am so glad I have peole to agree with me LOL. We were leaving a powwow once and my BF was driving. Everything was loaded and ready to go except the kids took off to play in the dirt. BF and I got in the truck and he started it up and driving. I thought he was going to drive over to where they were but he started to leave. We were completely out of sight! It became the first time I ever let him have it (verbally). I was so furious! I was going on and on about abandonment issues and all that and how he'd better not ever think of doing any thing like that again. I also made him apologize to the kids and take us out to dinner. To make matters worse, my best friend agreed sided with him!! I think I'll remind him about all this tomorrow LOL.

Kara


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

You know, it's funny. After reading so many AP and GD books, and seeing their examples of "bad parenting" that I actually experienced as a child, it's no freaking wonder I have the anxiety problems I do. 

My mom did the "I'm going to leave you" thing, too. The really sad part? I can remember many times when she followed through (got in the car, and drove off) to teach us a lesson.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

My father did that. I only really witnessed it (don't actually know if he did it to me, but then he basically abandoned us, so if he DID do it, he meant it, with me and my brother) with my sister, who is 25 years younger than me.

She was still little and I was visiting, and they were trying to get her out the door to go fridge shopping. But they had her older brother (he's 15 years younger than me) "getting her ready", which meant lots of nothing going on, so *of course* she had no shoes and no pants and whatever else was missing when they were ready to go.







: I was stuck in the middle; old enough to be all the sibs' mother and wanting to take THAT role, but they ARE my sibs and I don't want to "tell on them"...meanwhile my poor sister is getting the brunt of it, like it was her fault for not being ready.

Dad finally just "well we're leaving Cady, goodbye", and walked out, and Cady FREAKED OUT. I'm thinking part of the freak out is because she KNEW, somewhere deep in her being, that my dad had left one family, and could very well leave another (my dad is old and ineffectual now, though still very odd, and we're friends now). She went hysterical, and I think I finally had to step in to get her ready, and to go get my dad back inside.

There's a difference between "we're leaving now" and showing a child that you mean it by taking a few steps, and telling someone "well I'm leaving YOU then" and walking away as though you mean to leave the child there. One triggers a sort of Continuum Concept *must be with the tribe* feeling, and the other triggers sheer panic. Until the kid gets used to it and ignores it, I suppose, like my sister does now.


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## Malkah (Mar 11, 2006)

I just wanted to say that both of my daughters are very attatched to me. My eldest is less because of situations with my MIL when she was a baby, and there is so much I regret about that special time in her life. But my 8 mos old is just so my other half right now, and freaks anytime she can't see or hear me....even for a couple of minutes. I can't even leave her with daddy for a few to go to the store w/o him calling shortly after that the baby is having a breakdown! LOL! I can see how threatening to leave a child somewhere can be detremental to their sense of security. I have had many a screaming dd being carried out to the car when it was time to leave the park, but I found a quick and easy way to resolve it is this: 1. the warnings at 20,15,10, and 5 min works! 2. distraction from the actual leaving of the park works too (like looking for leaves,flowers,squirrels,etc.) I have found that a delicious snack waiting in the car is a great "bribe", and usually elleviates tantrums due to hunger. Also, my daughter loves choices. Once, we brought sand box toys, and she was throwing a fit about leaving, and I gave her the choice to leave happily with her toys, or leave without her toys so that some one else could play with them. She was sure happy to leave with her toys! But there was never an option to stay. They do need to know who's the true nay-sayer of the fam. Also, I have found it effective to give her a reason why we have to go, ie. baby is sleepy, we have to meet daddy, it's lunch time. My point is, we are all trying to be the best parents we can be, that's why we come to this forum and talk. And every day is a new day to try something else that might work. I'm sure my grandparents and my mom would have done things differently if they had such a wonderful resource. So, I would like to give you a big hand for coming here and asking if what you are doing really works in the long run....even if it seems to now.


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

I can do you one better.....my mother used to pack our bags and threaten to take us to an orphanage when we didnt clean up our rooms the right way or obey her every word....








I often think I'm doing much better than she ever did and yet after reading this thread, I realize I still have a long way to go









I've coaxed and asked kindly and firmly for my son to get in the car .....he usually screams no at me and runs away.....so after trying nicer tactics and getting hurt from him kicking, biting, hitting me trying to push him into his carseat, one day I just said "ok, bye...see ya later" and he came running.......I see how it can cause abandonment issues now and that wont happen again







:


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## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

Should I start a new thread? Is this hijacking????

UM, when I am ready to leave the house, I will say, "I'm waiting outside." Everyone quickly falls in. I have NEVER needed to do anything like this in public, as I am also one to have a reason or bribe (snack) waiting in the car. Anyway, I warn the kids that their chance for my help with shoes, coats, whatever is over in 5 minutes. Then I go outside after that time is up. I have only made it out the door one time. Without EVER having threatened to leave without my kids, Phaedra completely has abandonment issues and needs to fuel to that fire.


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## solstar (May 26, 2002)

I remind the kids several times (counting down) and then I say time to go and start walking. Otherwise I have to chase the kids to get them to leave.

I don't know if I have ever threatened to leave them. I think once when dd was flailing on the floor and it was time to leave the house.
My kids are a bit older though.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Well, I have to admit that I have, on occasion, said, "Okay, should I just meet you at home, then?" when dd wouldn't leave. To which she has replied, totally delighted, "Yeah, good idea!"


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## junaleda (May 8, 2004)

I am guilty of doing this... sort of. My son likes to turn leaving the house into a power struggle. It really doesn't matter if we are going to disneyland or how much advance notice- he will refuse to get ready in any way. If after giving him an opportunity to help with his shoes and coat he still refuses to leave I just quietly get his sister ready and begin to pack her up and start the car, by the time I have done this he gets himself ready and comes out himself. To me it seems like this makes him feel like he is deciding to leave rather than being forced- he never seems scared when he joins us, just matter-of-factly states that he decided to come. What do you guys think of this? Am I being cruel? I just haven't come up with any other way to get out of the house..


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## solstar (May 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Well, I have to admit that I have, on occasion, said, "Okay, should I just meet you at home, then?" when dd wouldn't leave. To which she has replied, totally delighted, "Yeah, good idea!"

That would totally be my dd!


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Junaleda - this thread is about threatening to leave without the child. You certainly aren't doing that.


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## guest9969 (Apr 16, 2004)

I don't threaten to leave. But I probably do a variation on it. I usually warn my child that we need to leave soon so he should say good-bye to his toys and that we will see them next time.

If he really resists, I do sometimes say "well, its time for us to go now" and head for the door. I don't threaten to leave him but I also don't look behind me if I know he isn't following. I just walk through the door and wait for him to join me (he can see me but I don't 'wait' on him - I busy myself getting ready to leave). He gets the idea quickly and follows suit. He has a time or two panicked and says "Mommy!" to which I just reply "well, your coming along aren't you?" and he grins and comes running.

I think the real problem is threatening abandonment. I don't see any harm in setting an expectation for the child that it is time to leave.

Not to make her feel bad but... as a teenager, one of my sisters, who is now one of the most natural AP moms I know, once left me at the park because I wanted to go down the slide one more time. When she came back a few minutes later, I absolutely refused to get in the car with her. She drove down the street saying to me "get in the car! what are you doing? get in the car!" She's lucky no one called the cops for trying to kidnap me.


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## Mrs.Peanut (Feb 1, 2006)

Before arriving at our destination, I always ask the kids one question. "Okay, we are going to (fill in the blank), what is the rule?" The kids rhyme off the answer, "When Mommy says it's time to go, we go, or else we don't get to come back for a very, very long time." When it's time to leave, I give a 10, 5, 2 and one minute warning. Then it's time to go.

Only once have I had to follow through. When I only had the eldest two, I used to bring them to McDonalds every Friday for lunch, and they could play in the play room for a while. They tested me one time. And we didn't go back for about two months. For little ones who were used to going weekly, that was indeed a very long time. For years after that, we continued our weekly visit to McDonalds. And let me tell you, I have seen many jaws drop when I would tell my kiddies that it was time to go, and the kids promptly came out and put on their shoes with no hassle.

I sometimes use 'positive reinforcement' (aka bribery). For my McDonalds example, they are never allowed to open their toy until they are buckled into the vehicle. That hurries them out! The little ones usually have a snack while we're driving. After they have been playing for a while, they are usually hungry and thirsty. Reminding them about their snack waiting in the van usually helps. Often I will try to lessen the disappointment about having to leave by talking about something positive. "Don't forget, when we get home, we have to ..." Fill in the blank with - "Draw that picture you promised for Nana", or "Make dinner, did you still want to help me with that today?", or even "Let the dogs out. They must really, really have to go to the bathroom by now!" If I can't think of anything to bribe with (maybe it's late and there is nothing to look forward to except getting ready for bed ..) I'll distract them by talking about something we're doing tomorrow. Kids usually love to talk. Just starting a conversation about something fun distracts them.

Over the years, I have seen many parents threaten everything under the sun. I have seen many children carried out or dragged away. I have heard parents say unbelievably mean things to their kids. I believe strongly in, 'say what you mean and mean what you say'. In fact, I think it's probably my rule #1 of parenting. My dh, who is a very loving father, doesn't always follow through with threats of discipline. And then he wonders why the kids don't listen to him. And yet, I can give any of the kids one quiet but firm instruction, and they listen.

Kids will always test you from time to time to test the boundaries. That's a normal and healthy part of growing up. But in my experience, an occasion sad child being left out of an ice cream treat while the siblings enjoy theirs serves me well. The punishment always fits the crime and I always follow through with what I say.

It has never even crossed my mind to threaten abandoning my child. If you threaten to abandon your child, there are only two possible outcomes. Either your child will believe you, or they won't. Neither outcome serves you well as a parent. If your child does believe that you might possibly abandon them, you are creating a plethora of fear and abandonment issues. We all love our children and I don't believe any one of us want to truly scare our children. If your child does not believe your threat, then what message have you just sent your child? You have just told you child that sometimes you make threats that you simply don't mean. (Say what you mean and mean what you say!) So what happens the next time you try to set a boundary and state what the resulting discipline will be? The child will tell themselves, "Hey, Mom/Dad didn't mean it the last time s/he threatened me. They might not mean it this time either. Let's find out!" Making an idle threat guarantees that your child will test you by not listening the next time you try to make a condition. In fact, they probably won't listen the next few times until you are consistent several times in a row. Two possible outcomes. Neither one acceptable. It's a lose/lose situation. There are so many easier and more effective ways of creating cooperation.

Sorry for the long rant, but I get so upset when I see so many parents deal so negatively with their children. Kids will get enough stress dumped on them in this world without their own parents adding to it. We should be their safe place, their haven. Children have a basic right to know that they are always safe with their parents. I'm probably preaching to the converted, since parents who frequent a board like this are loving parents who already practice positive parenting.

Just my .02 (okay, maybe .04) cents!


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## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

We set a timer on the cellphone to tell us when it is time to leave, then we allow our DD to ask for 2 more minutes--at which time we will set the timer again. When the timer goes off, we make sure she hears it and we remind her that it is time to go. On occasion when she has ignored us or the timer, we have said "We are going now, we hope you decide to come with us". She usually will come. Also on occasion, we have had to go over and pick up our kicking and screaming DD and carry her away to the car. We have told her that we will NEVER leave her and I don't think we have ever threatened to leave her anyplace. However, I have heard a lot of parents do this and it really makes me sad for their children. No wonder a lot of these children have major separation anxiety issues and trust issues.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *solstar*
I remind the kids several times (counting down) and then I say time to go and start walking. Otherwise I have to chase the kids to get them to leave.

I don't know if I have ever threatened to leave them. I think once when dd was flailing on the floor and it was time to leave the house.
My kids are a bit older though.

My dd is 3, and this is usually how we leave now. I do not consider this threatening to leave her alone. What I tell her (after warnings that we're going to leave in 5 minutes, then 4, then 3, etc.) is that we must go NOW, and that I'd really like it if she came with me. And I start to walk. THe alternative to this is that I cahse her around the playground (getting angry in the process), and she flails, kicks, and screams in my arms as I carry her out. The way we do it now seems to be more peaceful for everyone. She usually waits until I'm almost out of the playground gate, then runs after me.

However, to someone who doesn't know our history, it may look like I'm doing the "I'll leave you alone" technique. But I don't give a rats' a** what onlookers think of my parenting...they don't know me or our situation.


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Just to clarify a few things...we do expect our children to come when it's time to go. We have discussed this at length in this forum, so if you want to know more about my personal views on the subject, feel free.

What I was upset about with my OP was the method this mother was using. She'd not given her dd any time to play, the child was very young and she literally said "Well, if you don't want to come, then I'm leaving without you" in an angry tone and walked away. The dd started screaming and trying to follow her and the mother kept walking away without even glancing back at her panicking child. After a few minutes, the mom stopped walking, allowing her sobbing child to catch up with her, still not even looking at her, and then grabbed her hand and continued walking, while the child continued to sob. THIS is what broke my heart.

No Gentleness. No compassion for threatening to abandon her. Just distance and anger because a less than 3 yr old didn't "obey on command" I was so angry. And needed to vent. Just needed to make it clear.


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## Wolfmeis (Nov 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Nikki~*
You know, it's funny. After reading so many AP and GD books, and seeing their examples of "bad parenting" that I actually experienced as a child, it's no freaking wonder I have the anxiety problems I do. 

My mom did the "I'm going to leave you" thing, too. The really sad part? I can remember many times when she followed through (got in the car, and drove off) to teach us a lesson.

Do you still feel that clench in your stomach? I remember this, and the feeling of cold, start terror. The playground didn't look the same color, the people sounded funny, it was horrible. I remember feeling my heart break.


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## apriljoy (Sep 22, 2005)

Well, Aidan's only 10mos, and I've only had to deal with this at home, but...

There are times when he is playing and I need to go to another room, but I know he'll get upset if I interrupt his playing to make him come with me (fair enough). So I get his attention and let him know that I'm going into the next room and ask if he'd rather come with me or keep playing. Sometimes he comes right away. Other times, he continues playing, but when he sees me walking out of the room, he starts fussing a bit and rushes over toward me (at which point I stop and wait for him to catch up and tell him how happy I am that he's coming with me).

I'm not sure how this will evolve in the future, but I'm sure that I'll never threaten to abandon him. I feel pretty good about this technique because I'm letting him know that I _have_ to leave, but I'm *giving him the option* to come with me. I hope it'll set a good pattern for the future. I dunno...what do you guys think? (I'm very open to criticism...wanna do what's best for my little boy!)

To the OP, I can see how that scene was disturbing to you. It makes me so sad to see people being so hateful to children, especially their own.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Well, I have to admit that I have, on occasion, said, "Okay, should I just meet you at home, then?" when dd wouldn't leave. To which she has replied, totally delighted, "Yeah, good idea!"

That's one of the reasons why I'd never use this technique with ds - he'd do just that and then I'd be the big 'ol liar who wasn't really leaving. <imagine a big laughing smiley here>

I also think that threatening to leave is cruel. But I remember feeling desperate and really wanting to out of some bizarro need to get my way right then and there. What I *do* do is the "I'm ready to go now, ds" and start walking. It works for our dynamic because I'm generally open to reconsidering if he needs me to and he knows that.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I have actually used that method but not in a harsh way, and only with my 5yo. When she stalls in leaving the house, refuses to put her shoes on after several reminders, I have left without her if dh is home. She gets upset but learns to get ready on time next time.

The few times I tried it with my dd when she was 3 she did say, "Fine, I'm going off to play some more" and left me standing there feeling really stupid.

With my 2yo, I will ask her if she wants to walk or be carried back to the car. If she still doesn't leave she gets carried.


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## The Lucky One (Oct 31, 2002)

I've said this a time or two to my high-needs very challenging ds1.

I'm not defending the practice of threatening things like that, but I certainly do feel it takes a HECK of a lot more than that to cause 'abandonment issues'.


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## Unconventional1 (Apr 3, 2006)

Prior to getting pregnant I was a nanny for a family with two year old twins. We used the love and logic approach to child rearing, and it worked well. When we went to the park, about ten to fifteen minutes before we needed to leave I would ask them if they wanted to leave in five minutes or ten minutes, which gave them a sense of control over their own lives (very important even for a yougster!). Then, when time was up I would tell them their ten minutes was up and it was time to leave. I rarely had problems getting them to go, but if I did they got the choice to either walk to the car by themselves, or to be carried to the car by me. If they didn't answer, I told them that I will make the decision for them, and I would pick them up and go to the car. It worked well, we had very little conflict in that household as a result.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
I have actually used that method but not in a harsh way, and only with my 5yo. When she stalls in leaving the house, refuses to put her shoes on after several reminders, I have left without her if dh is home. She gets upset but learns to get ready on time next time.

I do the same thing and only when I can follow through and ds fully knows from the start that it is a choice to get up and go with me now or stay home with dh. I have said to him after giving him minute warnings...10 minutes to go, etc..."I'm sorry, mama cannot wait any longer. I am walking out the door now and if you would like to come you will need to come right now or you will have to stay home with daddy". I fully intend on following through if it comes to that. I think it is good to teach him the natural consequence and not at all in a harsh way. I, on the other hand, would never ever threaten to leave my child alone anywhere where he wasn't safely with the other parent and fully aware of that. I think it is so cruel. I mean, I can't even imagine my dh doing that to me...why in the world would someone think they can do this to a 3 year old. So sad...


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unconventional1*
We used the love and logic approach to child rearing, and it worked well. When we went to the park, about ten to fifteen minutes before we needed to leave I would ask them if they wanted to leave in five minutes or ten minutes, which gave them a sense of control over their own lives (very important even for a yougster!).

What if they'd said "no?"


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

I always simply state that "... I'M leaving NOW. So, if you want to stay here by YOURSELF go for it. If you want to come with mommy... let's get a move on mister..."

I'm a meanie... so is he!


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## Unconventional1 (Apr 3, 2006)

If the child says no, then I state that I will make the choice for them and we will be leaving in (whichever choice I choose). They don't like it when they lose their choice, so it only happened on a rare occasion. This method makes everything easier. The older a child gets, the more control you give, so that by the time they are in high school and beyond they tend to make good decisions for themselves, or at least can figure out the potential consequences of their actions. Another example is when an older child wants to play with the neighbor kids, but you want him to clean his room first is:
"Mom, I want to go play next door!"
"Have you cleaned up your room yet?"
"No, I will do it when I get home."
"Feel free to go play with the neighbor kids after you have cleaned up your room."

Then if the boy decides not to clean his room, he also does not get to go play. So he learns there are always consequences to every action. And there is no more arguement about him cleaning his room either. It makes for a peaceful, low stress household, with great communication. My parents, and pretty much every other parent I know, takes on their kids' problems as if they are their own, the kids never learn to be responsible for themselves, and there is way too much tension in the household all the time. Like any philosophy, I use the portions that are right for me, so I have melded these ideas with attachment parenting as well.

There are several books out about love and logic, the founders of the idea are Jim Fay (a principal who started this philosophy in his school so it would run more smoothly) and Foster Cline, M.D.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

I never do that to my child. To me it feels completely wrong, and after having seen the terror in childrens faces when their parents threaten to leave them, I feel certain that it actually feels like abandonment to them.

A small child (the kid in the OP was 3) has no reason to NOT believe the parent if he/she threatens to leave.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unconventional1*
If the child says no, then I state that I will make the choice for them and we will be leaving in (whichever choice I choose). They don't like it when they lose their choice, so it only happened on a rare occasion.

I guess that's one way to go about things. Personally, I don't think it's fair to give kids false choices and I think they probably feel it. In other words, I'm not a fan of asking, "Do you want to...?" if I'm not willing to accept a "No." Saying, "Do you want to...?" being met with a "no" and responding, "Well, then, I'll make the choice for you" is basically saying, "I'm just pretending to give you a choice but you really don't have one." Kids are smarter than that.

I ask "Do you want to..."? when I'm really able to accept his input. If it's a situation where, out of necessity, I've already made the decision about what's going to happen, I let him know how things need to go. He's generally pretty accepting of that because he knows from experience that I'm not arbitrary about things like that.

I also think there's a fairness issue with holding very small children to doing what they said 15 minutes ago. I know with ds, anyway, if I told him at 2 or even 3 that we were leaving in 15 minutes, he'd be fine with it because 15 minutes away would feel like forever. But when 15 minutes came, it would be hard for him. If I told him we were leaving in 4 minutes, then 2 minutes, then 1 minute, it would be a lot easier for him to accept because it would be more immediate but also give him a chance to finish up what he was doing.


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## minmoto2 (Dec 23, 2004)

My dd's are 7 & 11, but still do well w/the countdown. My lil one still loves to play games on the way to the car, or pick flowers, watch for squirrels, etc. When my youngest was 2-4yo i would get to '10 more minutes' & she would say 'how about 6mins??'...







I of course agreed, and she felt like she had a part in the decision making







She still likes to bargain w/2 more trips down the slide, or 1 more time on the swing, etc, which i am almost always open to, since 1 or 2 trips down the slide is generally less than 5mins.


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## Glover_Girls (Mar 20, 2006)

I did that one time







when I was extremely worn out and frustrated. My DD cried so bad and said, "mommy, please don't leave me. I want mommy." That was enough of a lesson for me! I only did it that one time. My DD nearly always leaves places cooperatively. I give plenty of notice before we leave. My DD does tend to dawdle (it's a family trait







) so when I'm ready to leave, I say,"the train is leaving." For some reason, it always works. Of course I have also threatened to bring her to preschool in her pj's (and that's no empty threat)!


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs.Peanut*
Before arriving at our destination, I always ask the kids one question. "Okay, we are going to (fill in the blank), what is the rule?" The kids rhyme off the answer, "When Mommy says it's time to go, we go, or else we don't get to come back for a very, very long time."

Over the years, I have seen many parents threaten everything under the sun. I have seen many children carried out or dragged away. I have heard parents say unbelievably mean things to their kids. I believe strongly in, 'say what you mean and mean what you say'. In fact, I think it's probably my rule #1 of parenting. My dh, who is a very loving father, doesn't always follow through with threats of discipline. And then he wonders why the kids don't listen to him. And yet, I can give any of the kids one quiet but firm instruction, and they listen.

Kids will always test you from time to time to test the boundaries. That's a normal and healthy part of growing up. But in my experience, an occasion sad child being left out of an ice cream treat while the siblings enjoy theirs serves me well. The punishment always fits the crime and I always follow through with what I say.


Welcome to MDC! Did you know that many of us do not believe in threatening or punishing our children - ever? I would never tell my child that if she didn't do X, I was going to do Y to her. When you make one kid sit and watch the other kids eat ice cream, they aren't feeling loved. They're feeling humiliated and angry and ashamed. Sure, maybe next time they won't do whatever it is that made you decide they didn't deserve ice cream, but it will only be because they don't want to get in trouble again. I want my daughter to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not because I'm going to punish her if she doesn't.

Gentle discipline is really about finding non-punitive ways to teach your child. It isn't just about not spanking!!! There's much more to it than that! I really hope you stick around, so some of the very wise mamas here (much wiser than me!








) can help you find ways of teaching your children without threatening, bribing or punishing them.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

And about threatening to leave kids... We've been packing up our house to move across town today and DH went to go get the moving truck. He called and asked me to move my car to the street so he could pull the truck into the driveway. I don't ever feel safe putting DD (23 months) in the car on the street unless she's buckled into her carseat, so I stood her in on the other side of the garage where I could see her, to avoid having to buckle her in just to pull the car to the street right in front of the house. Then I told her that I had to move the car to the street and she would be able to see me the whole time, but I was not going to leave. She seemed okay, because she said, "Mommy move car! Not leave." I figured she'd be fine because she could see me the whole way and I had the window down talking to her.

I was wrong. As soon as the car hit the street, she started screaming, "MOMMY! MOMMY LEAVE! BACK, MOMMY!" and crying uncontrollably. It was horrible. I ran back up to her as fast as I could and she cried for a couple of minutes. She was so traumatized by it that she even talked about it a few hours later, saying, "Mommy not leave me! Mommy move car." I felt like the worst mother ever, for actually thinking she understood. Duh! Of course she didn't understand. And my heart has been breaking all day for her few minutes of pain, believing I would leave her home alone! I can't believe parents would actually do that to their kids on purpose! (Make them believe they're actually leaving them alone, when they're still little enough to cry about it!)


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

that line only works for as long the kid figures you'll actaully do it. Wonder what dear ol mom would have done if her kid had said, "Fine. Go. Bye." They were at the park afterall


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I guess that's one way to go about things. Personally, I don't think it's fair to give kids false choices and I think they probably feel it. In other words, I'm not a fan of asking, "Do you want to...?" if I'm not willing to accept a "No." Saying, "Do you want to...?" being met with a "no" and responding, "Well, then, I'll make the choice for you" is basically saying, "I'm just pretending to give you a choice but you really don't have one." Kids are smarter than that.

I don't think she was giving them a false choice. She was giving them the choice of leaving in 5 minutes or in 10 minutes. She wasn't asking "do you want to?" as a question with a yes or no answer. She was asking, "Do you want to or do you want to ?" which is quite different. So, if they wouldn't choose when they wanted to go, she chose for them.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Ah, I read it incorrectly. That makes more sense to me.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting*
Welcome to MDC! Did you know that many of us do not believe in threatening or punishing our children - ever? I would never tell my child that if she didn't do X, I was going to do Y to her. When you make one kid sit and watch the other kids eat ice cream, they aren't feeling loved. They're feeling humiliated and angry and ashamed. Sure, maybe next time they won't do whatever it is that made you decide they didn't deserve ice cream, but it will only be because they don't want to get in trouble again. I want my daughter to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not because I'm going to punish her if she doesn't.

Gentle discipline is really about finding non-punitive ways to teach your child. It isn't just about not spanking!!! There's much more to it than that! I really hope you stick around, so some of the very wise mamas here (much wiser than me!







) can help you find ways of teaching your children without threatening, bribing or punishing them.









:

Very well put.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Ah, I read it incorrectly. That makes more sense to me.

I did, too...I was nodding my head to your post, and then went "wait a minute" and re-read the one you were responding to.

I have a head cold, and I'm spending waaaayyyyy too much time here the last couple days.


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## bookwitch (Jun 30, 2005)

YIKES!

That makes me so sad, especially in light of what happened to my daughter last week.

We were visiting a friend of mine and her little boy, and the friend's mother was in town. My friend is about 6 months preggers right now and asked me to help her put a couple of geraniums in the ground just outside the front door while her mother kept an eye on my DD and her DS. (Let me say, I know the mother well enough to trust her, or so I thought.). We'd been out there about 5 minutes when I heard the front door open. I look up and here comes the friend's mother and friend's DS. "Where's Punkin?" I asked.

Friend's mother: 'Oh, she's playing by herself inside. She's OK.'
Me (to my friend): 'Uhm, I think I'm going to go check on her.'

When I got in the door, I heard my little one crying. I found her in the living room, on her knees, clinging to the friend's dog and sobbing into his neck.
I picked her up and gave her lots of kisses, and walked outside where I (thankfully) heard my friend scolding her mother about not telling my daughter she was going outside.

*sigh* Why would anyone do that to a kid? (And the case with my daughter wasn't even a discipline thing. The friend's mother just didn't want to "disturb" my daughter's playing.) I could cry now just thinking about it. I'l NEVER forget the sight of my daughter, terrified that she was alone, clinging to that poor, patient dog.


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## Suzetta (Dec 21, 2003)

My mom would often do crazy things too...now she brags about them. For example, my oldest brother was having a fuss in the store, and she walked to the next aisle so he couldn't see her (but she could see him). She thinks he learned a great lesson that time. Now my parents are surprised that 2/3 of their kids have dis-associated themselves from them. The other one is totally dependent on them at 40 yo.

I have learned with my oldest dd how serious fear of abandonment can be. My dh went out of town for a week a while back, and the whole time she wouldn't let me out of her sight, and repeatedly said "mama, never leave me." My dh, who is still finding his way with discipline issues has done the "I'm gonna leave without you". I will usually just say (in a silly tone) "It is time to go, and I am leaving now....are you coming along, or is kitty going to watch you?" If I waited for her to come on her own terms, we would never leave the house.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs.Peanut
Before arriving at our destination, I always ask the kids one question. "Okay, we are going to (fill in the blank), what is the rule?" The kids rhyme off the answer, "When Mommy says it's time to go, we go, or else we don't get to come back for a very, very long time."
We have a simliar rule.. When we go to the park for example we always go over the rules. Play nice no climbing up slides and when time to leave we leave nice. Here part of comming again is leaving well. Thats not punitive its reality, now we were patient and worked on this rule we have gone from screaming NOOOO!! tantrums to okay bye bye slide and total coperation and I never had to keep her home. I also don't expect her to be all happy and great mom I'm so happy we are leaving. Tears happens expressed no's happen thats fine but I will not be beaten up kicked at screamed at in an excessive form and then be expected to go again for a while. I don't say 'for a very very long time" at three (my DD age) even once can be hard to accept but it is reality. We have had other times where the part of comming again is leaving right has had to be enforced when it has happened we just explain as gently as possible why we are taking a break, that we have rules for her safety and mommy needs the break then we find an alternitive to practice our leaving and listening skills more close to home. We can't go the Mcdoalds but we can have a picnic on the front lawn and toss a ball. And next week we will try again at Mc donalds.

Deanna


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Simply put, I am the rock in my daughters world. To say I'm leaving her would be as traumatic to her as a slap across the face, if not more. That threat just leaves me cold. It's my opinion and I'm not saying anyone has to agree with it, but threats of abandonment are not GD in my book. I'm not talking about "I have 10 minutes to get to the bank and if you don't get your shoes on now, you have to stay home with dad. You can go with me on my next errand". Threatening to leave kids in a public place with total strangers has to be one of the most frightening things in the world to a small child.


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## annarosa (Aug 30, 2004)

poor child - lots of parents resort to scare tactics to get their children to do what they want them to do - it's kind of in the mainstream culture to do that I think - but I do think that there is a big difference too between saying it and not following through and saying it and actually doing it ....... children know their parents and I think even little ones know if the threat is empty or real


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## Mama2 '05'06 (Mar 5, 2006)

I used to be a teacher with an after school program. What I found very sad was that these kids would rather stay with me than go home with their parents. I could understand them wanting to stay if we were playing but what I found unusual, was them wanting to stay when I had to scold them and give them time out for misbehavior. One mother in particular was always saying "Fine, I'll just leave without you". The child was 5 and in knidergarten. She would say "Good, I'll go home with ------- then and she'll take care of me." The mom would often drive away in anger and then return later to get her daughter. I think that with most kids, this threat doesn't work. They know that the parent isn't really going to leave them permanetly even if they do walk away temporarily. I think its better to make a game about coming when you want them. Just my humble opinion.


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GriffinsMom*
Not to make her feel bad but... as a teenager, one of my sisters, who is now one of the most natural AP moms I know, once left me at the park because I wanted to go down the slide one more time. When she came back a few minutes later, I absolutely refused to get in the car with her. She drove down the street saying to me "get in the car! what are you doing? get in the car!" She's lucky no one called the cops for trying to kidnap me.









I officially (and publicly) appologize. But if I was driving, you were quite a bit older than 3







.

[and I'm flattered to be 'one of the most natural AP moms you know







]


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## guest9969 (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2seven*
I officially (and publicly) appologize. But if I was driving, you were quite a bit older than 3







.

[and I'm flattered to be 'one of the most natural AP moms you know







]









True - I forgot to mention that I was considerably older than 3. What do you think - 8 or 9? And, I still think its a funny story. Almost as funny as the time you forced me to cut my fingernails and I ran outside and hid behind the rock. I could probably come over and commisserate with some poor child of yours with shorn fingernails. he, he...


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
We have a simliar rule.. When we go to the park for example we always go over the rules. Play nice no climbing up slides and when time to leave we leave nice. Here part of comming again is leaving well. Thats not punitive its reality...

I don't get that. It IS punitive. How is it reality? Is there some force field that prevents you from taking them to the playground when you decide they aren't "nice" when they leave?

I don't think it's fair to hold children to events that are so far removed in time. Telling a young child that their behaviour today will impact something that happens a few days from now, a week from now, or even the very next day is, IMO, unfair.

Punishment is about control. It doesn't teach children to act from within, it teaches them to view their actions in terms of what they will "get" or "not get".

Quote:

...I will not be beaten up kicked at screamed at in an excessive form and then be expected to go again for a while.
Why not talk to her about what she is feeling, teach her more constructive ways to express that, and try again at the playground next time?

As for the OP, I agree that playing on a child's deepest fears - that of abandonment - is abuse of parental power in its severest form. However it, like punishment, is still all about dangling carrots and sticks in front of children to get them to submit.


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## Terabith (Mar 10, 2006)

I totally hate, hate, hate the "I'll leave without you," threat. I also hate threats in general, but I particularly hate that one. When I was a kid, my father would play a "game" in which he would send one of us to put the shopping cart away at the store and then he would tell the other kid, "Lock the doors!" Then he would lock the doors to the car and pretend to drive off, stopping periodically to have us try the door and he'd laugh maniacally. Maybe I was just a super insecure kid (I was pretty insecure; it didn't bother my sister like it bothered me), but to this day, if someone else is with me and I go to return the cart, I get anxious. Until a few yrs ago, I'd actually have heart palpitations if I had to return the cart. It majorly leads to feelings of abandonment. Plus, it's stupid to threaten somethign you aren't going to do. I'm not a perfect GD person, and actually, I don't even aspire to be completely and totally GD (except in the "I would like for my children to be so super human as to not need to be taught behavior anymore" sense), although I do try to be about 85-90% GD and save the time out big gun for absolute major necessities. I try not to tell my kids what to do unless I really need to, because if I say I'm going to do something, it must be followed up upon. Otherwise, you're just teaching your kids that they can't trust you, regardless of whether you're promising you'll go get ice cream later or that you'll not have time to read a last story unless they cooperate with tooth brushing.


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## Lady Madonna (Jul 2, 2004)

I did this *once* and I still feel bad about it. Our dog was having an Addisonian crisis (adrenal gland issues) and HAD to get to the vet ASAP - it was almost to the point of him being in a coma, so it was very important. I explained it to DD, said we had to hurry up and go so the dog would be OK. I helped her get her shoes on ... and as I was putting the dog on the leash, she took off the shoes. And had a fit about something random. I was so desperate that I said "fine, you stay here, and I'll be back after the dog is OK". She put her shoes back on and got out the door. She didn't freak out or anything - she took me very seriously.

But I still feel crappy about it. Both of my (divorced) parents left us places at different points. It was horrible. I'm big into the five minute warning and countdown, and she's very responsive to that. In this one case, I was so desperate, I guess I lost my mind. DD doesn't remember it, but I always will.


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## hawkfeather (Jan 18, 2005)

I dunno maybe i am just being the devil's advocate but i have told my kids _i am leaving_ MANY times.

They are not three they are older.. but even as young as five, if i really need to leave somewhere and my children are not co-operating than me expressing that I am leaving is the truth, i am not saying i will leave _without_ you.. i think that sounds really sad.. but if i am leaving i am leaving- and i want to tell them that honeslty that i have no option to wait. (when i don't)

To me being in a family means we work together to make sure _all_ our needs are met, including me needing to be certain places at certain times. And i have to say that if i needed to leave and one of my kids was preventing it than i do not think that is fair. I would always explain to them why i have to leave..give warnings.. but if they are not listening and i have to leave i will say *okay I am leaving now* or * i need to leave now and i am going* it isn't a threat it means I am leaving, and we leave.

I could pick up a child being stubborn and remove them, but if they are truely resisting than forcibly removing them seems less kind than simply expressing _my_ needs. If they express thier needs in return there is always a compromise in there.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Terabith, welcome to the GD forum. Not sure how you happened upon this four month old thread. It sounds like your childhood experience was traumatizing. I am sorry to hear that. I had similar experiences.







This issue is an important one. I am glad you posted to it.

Pat


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## AmyAngel (Dec 3, 2004)

My mom used to threaten to leave us (for good), or threaten to call "the state" to come get us, even picking up the phone and pretending to dial. I remember KNOWING she was lying and manipulating us, but being so upset and terrified at the same time and sobbing and begging her not to go or to call, while secretly wishing she WOULD just leave and quit with the waffling and lying. It's really upsetting to love and hate someone so much, and feel so manipulated and hated and stupid at the same moment. I absolutely didn't trust her about anything for a very long time, like on into adulthood.

I get along with her fine, now, but I hope never, ever to do that with any child I have.


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## arlecchina (Jul 25, 2006)

hmm, I dont know if I do this or not. I've pretty much always asked my son when dawdling "do you wanna stay here?" to which he answers "no" and stops dawdling and that's that. no crying or aggravation or anything like that in all these years.


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## Terabith (Mar 10, 2006)

Thanks for the welcome! I'm not sure how I wound up with four month old threads popping up, but my computer has been acting weird, so who knows?







: I am very new to all this and I'm sure you have answered this many, many, many times in the forum but I haven't read all the threads so I will ask again; is there a definitive definition of gentle discipline? Intuitively, I thought, you know, no spanking, guiding, teaching, etc, but it seems like there is a lot more to it than that and that there are factions even within gentle discipline? It's a bit overwhelming, a whole new field of parenting to research! Ah, where to start?







:


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

My mother used to do it to us.
she'd say, okay, I'm leaving without you, and she'd just go.
If we acted up in the car, she'd put us out of the car and drive away.
she always came right back, she'd usually drive around the block and pick us up.
but still.









I think it all started with the threats to leave, and she caught on that empty threats dont work, so rather than working on a better method, she just started to follow through!

When I need to leave somewhere and 3yo dd doesnt, after warnings of impending departure, I let her know that I'm going, and would she like to come with me. Generally, she does want to come, if she doesnt, then I ask her how much longer she wants - 2 minutes? 5? We talk about it and come to a solution.

I think the basis of Gentle Discipline is just that - that it be GENTLE. respectful to the child as a person, without violence either physical, emotional or psychological.


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## MamaRabbit (May 26, 2005)

I'm so glad I found this post. It's an issue I've been struggling with a lot. The more GD I do, the more aware I am of what isn't gentle. I've done the threatening thing before but honestly had NO IDEA of any other options I could use. Good and gentle discipline was and has never been modeled for me. Thank you all for some great ideas!


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Subbing.


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## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

My mom threatened this when I was young and I didn't have any abandonment issues nor did I really ever feel my mom was going to really leave me forever.

But I do think you have to be careful when using the statement. A friend was visiting me one evening with her 2 girls whom she adopted from China - one who had been home less than 1 year - and it came time to go they didn't want to leave so she started saying she was going to leave them with me and she was going to go home and went on and on with it. I was stunned she would use such a ploy with adopted children much less children from an orphanage background. She is well educated and actually works in the ECE field. I was pretty horrified that she would even consider saying something that basically was suggesting abandonment. The kids didn't seem to mind at the time but I do wonder how they processed that kind of thing.

Maggie


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## ellesmama (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wolfmeis*
Do you still feel that clench in your stomach? I remember this, and the feeling of cold, start terror. The playground didn't look the same color, the people sounded funny, it was horrible. I remember feeling my heart break.

When I read this, I totally remembered having this exact reaction when I was a child and my parents played this game to me. WOW!!







: Sure, you can think logically it isn't 'that big of deal', and its not compared to other much worse things parents do to their children, but I have just had a moment of clarity.

I admit I have done this a couple of times, and dd usually came quickly and w/o complaint but now I will never do this to my dd again. Especially since I remembered when it happened to me as a child, I did not have an outward reaction. I was quiet and just quickly followed. So, from the outside it would have looked like no big deal, but on the inside I had felt the terror and the betrayal, and confusion of my mom leaving w/o me.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I said, "Bye bye then!" once and immediately sensed how wrong it felt. I still use a similar tactic, but I say, "Mama's going this way, sweetie!" instead. I feel like that's more just giving him information so that he sees where I'm going and can come along, rather than sending the message that I would leave without him.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

I am somewhat guilty of this and I also don't think it is one of those "end of the world" bad parenting moments...unless the Parent actually LEAVES...

I will say "DS, Mommy will wait for you by the door" and I jingle my keys and I stand their and wait and he will come because the jangling keys signifies departure.

There are worst bad parenting moves...


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## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

Ugh I have a friend who does this, she even will get in the car, start the engine and back out of the driveway. Of course her kids come running scared.

My Mom tried to pull this one on DS once when we were in the car waiting for him to get in. She said "come on, get in or we'll leave without you". I whipped my head around and told her "NO we will not and DO NOT try to tell him we will!" OMG I was so pissed off.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

I have done a version of this. The OP makes this mother sound like the wicked witch of the west -- I wonder of the delivery really was so severe?

In my scenario - its usually when I need to leave to drop DS at preschool and go to work - and its more along the lines of "OK DS. Mom has to go now. Do you want to go to school today or stay home with nanny?" He always prefers school so that gets him going.

But have also done it in public scenarios where DS is refusing to leave - but more like "OK DS -- we have to go now" and I start walking toward the car -- and then DS gets up and runs to follow.

To be honest - I've expected him to call my bluff before - and he hasn't yet?

But honestly - the tone of the OP is soo unbelievably harsh?


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I must say I see this nearly every time I leave the house. I saw it today. I stopped and said rather loudly to my dd, "mommy would never leave you". Then I immediately felt bad - the other mother was a complete wreck. She didn't hear me anyways. I tried to offer her some empathetic words, like, "It is really hard, isn't it? SHe had two little ones and was really losing it. I've been to that point with just one child.

~Tracy


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

I'm guilty. I usually do it when I'm trying to leave the house and DS is being a pill about it. But he does totally freak out. I don't tell him I'm leaving without him I just pick up the keys and say" Ok, I'm going now" and he comes running a little panicked. Which I don't feel good about. Once at a store he was in the car cart and wanted to see something at the end of an aisle. I told him to wait until we went down the other aisle. He proceeded to jump out of the cart and run back to see what he wanted to see and I kept walking down the aisle. That freaked him out, and I felt awful, and apologized. SO, now I say "I'm going to _____, who else wants to go!" and he usually yelss " I do, I do". We both leave in a much happier place.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

When I was 15, I was waiting in the car while my mom ran into Safeway. I had the window rolled down, and I overheard this mom with her son. He was whining and fussing in true tired, hungry toddler fasion--he was maybe 2 tops--while she yelled at him to shut up or she'd break his arm, leave him, etc. He didn't stop whining, so she got into her car and drove away. I watched her car leave the parking lot and disappear down the street. I went to that poor little boy, picked him up, and he just clung to me and went to sleep within about 30 seconds. I called the cops, and they were there within about 10 minutes. They spent about 20 minutes filling out paperwork, etc. So after about half an hour, the woman came back. She then started yelling at me, threatening to beat me up etc as I stood there holding her sleeping son. She told the cops I was trying to kidnap her son! That stuck with me. I just remember that poor little terrified baby.


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## margaritamama (Jun 16, 2004)

I decided to start a new thread to discuss my topic.


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora*
When I was 15, I was waiting in the car while my mom ran into Safeway. I had the window rolled down, and I overheard this mom with her son. He was whining and fussing in true tired, hungry toddler fasion--he was maybe 2 tops--while she yelled at him to shut up or she'd break his arm, leave him, etc. He didn't stop whining, so she got into her car and drove away. I watched her car leave the parking lot and disappear down the street. I went to that poor little boy, picked him up, and he just clung to me and went to sleep within about 30 seconds. I called the cops, and they were there within about 10 minutes. They spent about 20 minutes filling out paperwork, etc. So after about half an hour, the woman came back. She then started yelling at me, threatening to beat me up etc as I stood there holding her sleeping son. She told the cops I was trying to kidnap her son! That stuck with me. I just remember that poor little terrified baby.

Wow. What an amazing story. But you warmed my heart, standing there holding that sleeping little boy. I hope he felt something good, loving and safe coming from your heart and through your arms. I hope that feeling stays with him forever, and gives him the hope and courage to keep trudging on.

Faith


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## MamaTaraX (Oct 5, 2004)

Well, since I see this thread is being slowly revivied...

What is the best way to leave, then? When you have to go and there is not waiting option, what works best?

I really am not down with the "I'm leaving without you" thing. Even my evil b**** MIL got on my DH for saying it to one of our kids once. I tlel him to remember that we are old enough to konw what he's saying but they are not. Things he says and does are big and scary to them. He's only said that once or twice. I assume he heard it as a child









Namaste, Tara


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

I guess I feel like its all in the delivery? Much of what I've seen here is a real mean mean sort of scenario - so mean I can hardly believe that the moms actually said these things - and truly am wondering if the posters are exaggerating or mischaracterizing because of their own sensitivity on the subject??

Honestly - it is so hard for me to imagine a mother doing what's been described here in the manner that's been described -- I am at a loss.

I think there is a way to say "OK - we have to go" and proceed to walk (slowly) in the direction the family needs to go -- that conveys the message that it is indeed time to go and we are indeed going - but not instilling a frightening thought that mom would actually hop in her car and speed away without them?


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## AmyAngel (Dec 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
I guess I feel like its all in the delivery? Much of what I've seen here is a real mean mean sort of scenario - so mean I can hardly believe that the moms actually said these things - and truly am wondering if the posters are exaggerating or mischaracterizing because of their own sensitivity on the subject??

Honestly - it is so hard for me to imagine a mother doing what's been described here in the manner that's been described -- I am at a loss.

I think there is a way to say "OK - we have to go" and proceed to walk (slowly) in the direction the family needs to go -- that conveys the message that it is indeed time to go and we are indeed going - but not instilling a frightening thought that mom would actually hop in her car and speed away without them?

Most of what I've seen has been yelling (or sneering through gritted teeth), followed by walking off without a single glance back at the child, slamming any doors that mom comes to on the way to where she's going. I think the "OK, we have to go." walking slowly away scenario isn't really what we're talking about here - presumably you're trusting the child to come along, checking to make sure he/she does, and not doing it in an angry way. What I have a problem with is angry yelling of "FINE! I'll just leave without you!" which gives (to me, at least) a feeling that it is meant to end with "And good riddance! I wish I'd never given birth to a brat like you."

I think moms that say this often have a lot of built-up anger or are at the end of their rope.


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## sarahlou (Aug 18, 2006)

I have a son who just turned 3 and a daughter who is almost one, and since she was born, I have really struggled with getting my son to come with me when it's time to go. I'm all about attachment parenting, and I'm trying to learn about gentle discipline (as I was not raised with anything of the sort), but there have been times when my nerves have been shot and I've been out of ideas and urgently needed to leave, and all of the gentle warnings and incentives just didn't work. I'm learning a lot from reading these posts, but I hope we can all remember that most moms are doing the best they can, and may be suffering from PPD, or may not have had a loving upbringing themselves... and not be so quick to judge, but rather find ways to support each other. When I see that kind of thing happening in public, I try to use humor to lighten the situation, or I just try to reinforce the parent by telling the child they have to listen... But I'm definitely interested in learning more strategies, because I still struggle with getting my son to cooperate. I've started reading Kid Cooperation by Elizabeth Pantley and have found it very helpful thus far.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahlou*
I hope we can all remember that most moms are doing the best they can, and may be suffering from PPD, or may not have had a loving upbringing themselves... and not be so quick to judge, but rather find ways to support each other.











PS, Welcome sarahlou!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaTaraX*
Well, since I see this thread is being slowly revivied...

What is the best way to leave, then? When you have to go and there is not waiting option, what works best?

I really am not down with the "I'm leaving without you" thing. Even my evil b**** MIL got on my DH for saying it to one of our kids once. I tlel him to remember that we are old enough to konw what he's saying but they are not. Things he says and does are big and scary to them. He's only said that once or twice. I assume he heard it as a child









Namaste, Tara

What usually works for me is to say, "Okay, we have to go now, let's go," and then pick up all myself and turn toward the exit. She knows I won't leave, and she doesn't freak out, but she usually comes. I make sure she's ready to go, too, though. That helps.

Or when we're leaving the house, sometimes I'll get her all ready, then while I'm getting ds ready she'll get in the middle of something and not want to go. So now I ask her if she wants to wait for me on the porch, or sometimes she even starts getting in the car if we're coming soon. Or give her something to carry. Or put her in charge of making sure the dogs stay in.


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## Luthien Arcamenel (Aug 14, 2006)

I hit the end of my rope one day and was bi****** to myself about how I should just leave. My mother left, and I don't why the h*** I stick around for such cr** like this







: and then I looked up from the mess that I was on my hands and knees cleaning to see my horrified son watching me.







: OMG I started crying and rocking him there on the floor and promising that I would never EVER do that, and that I was just upset. Geez, I felt this high







:


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahlou*
I hope we can all remember that most moms are doing the best they can, and may be suffering from PPD, or may not have had a loving upbringing themselves... and not be so quick to judge, but rather find ways to support each other.

ITA...I am not always quick enough about thinking of the best way to handle a situation...and there are also times I really get to the end of my rope and just don't know what to do. Doesn't mean I don't love my kid to the moon and back. Mothering really is the hardest and most thankless job. No one who perhaps sees you kind of lose it or be less than totally patient in public knows that you have spent the last 8 hours calmly and patiently and cheerfully dealing with one irrational outburst after another and you are totally freaking FRIED.


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday*
ITA...I am not always quick enough about thinking of the best way to handle a situation...and there are also times I really get to the end of my rope and just don't know what to do. Doesn't mean I don't love my kid to the moon and back. Mothering really is the hardest and most thankless job. No one who perhaps sees you kind of lose it or be less than totally patient in public knows that you have spent the last 8 hours calmly and patiently and cheerfully dealing with one irrational outburst after another and you are totally freaking FRIED.

That was me at the park the other day. I was barking out orders to my son "Put yourshoes on, the rule is shoes at the park, we don't knw what could be under the sand that could cut your feet, etc." one right after the other as he was working under the 5-3-1 it's time to go. poor kid was freaking out and then whacked his head on the play eqipment as he was walking over to me to put his shoes on. What a horrible mother i was. poor kid. i apologized to him afterwards for being such a jerk


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

to answer mamatarax;

I usually work with discussing with my dd (or just plain telling her) what time we need to leave. We have a little novelty kitchen timer and sometimes we use it in this kind of circumstance (assuming I have it in the bag). I;ll say we need to go, and ask how much longer she wants to stay, and even let her set the timer (usually to 3 or 5 minutes). When the bell dings, we leave, and she (almost) always leaves happily.
If I really need to go and she is really not into it, I will tell her (nicely) that I'm going to leave and ask her if she would like to come with me.

The thing that gets me is that I see mothers stresing out and having a hard time with their kids often, its a part of motherhood, I guess, we all have our moments. The thing is, I often want to go to the mother and say "hey, it's okay, can I help you?" and offer some support. Even if its just to let her know that she's not alone. Or help her carry her groceries, or SOMETHING.

But I always feel like if I tried the mother would get defensive and angry at me. and the language barrier is a problem for me, I live in Israel and my Hebrew isnt too hot.









I know if I'm in a rainbow situation and I see a mama having a hard time I'll go and help. A few times I've just come and taken a toddler a few metres away from his mother and played with him, calmed him and given the mama the space to calm down, cry, or whatever. I offer to take the kid to play or get a snack in kids' kitchen for 1/2 hour. I offer to nurse a baby if it seems appropriate. And I've always been met with grateful mothers, glad to be a part of a supportive community. i've even been on the recieving end of such support a few times.

But in the city, I just feel so isolated, like we're all so isolated, and I cant jsut step in and offer so much as a friendly smile.

What do you all think about it?


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

To Junaleda, I think perhaps your ds (like my dd) NEEDS to have some degree of control over when he leaves. I have learnt that I can safely say "I am starting to go slowly, but you can run so fast, and you can reach me in no time when you are ready". So, I am not threatening to leave her, at all. But then at the same time, we are on a schedule, unfortunately, and we need to stick to it ....


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kindacrunchy*
That was me at the park the other day. I was barking out orders to my son "Put yourshoes on, the rule is shoes at the park, we don't knw what could be under the sand that could cut your feet, etc." one right after the other as he was working under the 5-3-1 it's time to go. poor kid was freaking out and then whacked his head on the play eqipment as he was walking over to me to put his shoes on. What a horrible mother i was. poor kid. i apologized to him afterwards for being such a jerk

















My mother-of-the-year moment recently was when DS (almost 3) and I were leaving the beach, and he refused to pull his little wagon of sand toys on our way back to the house. I had my hands full of other things, and a broken toe making it hard to walk, and it was a long enough distance to the house that I just couldn't bear the idea of two trips back and forth. In desperation I told him he needed to pull his wagon himself or other kids would take his toys







:. I just knew it was a horrible thing to say even as I said it, but even worse--it totally backfired. DS got hysterical, collapsed on the spot, and started screaming for me to carry his toys so other kids wouldn't take them. Thank god an older couple near us took pity and offered to help out. The wife pulled the wagon, the husband carried some of things I had, and that allowed me to carry DS. I was soooooo grateful. It really made an impression on DS as well. For the rest of the day he asked again and again about the people who helped us, and even now a couple weeks later he still says several times a day, "It's nice to help people."


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