# irritated at a new mother



## Jen123 (Mar 16, 2004)

Last night at small group (like a home bible study) , a new couple was introduced. Amongst all the new questions...I asked one. "do you have any children ?". The woman replied "yes. a two week old, our first. ". I looked around. "where is he?". The woman said "with an aunt for the night". WHAT???







I bit my tongue SO hard. Another woman sensed my growing anger and began asking typical newborn questions to relieve the moment. The rest of the mothers encouraged her to bring the newborn to the future small groups...we are all anxious to hold lil ones again...no sense in paying a sitter....newborns aren't a bother..... we've got a sitter downstairs if you really feel the need..... yet there I stood with my mouth hanging open that she'd left her two week old baby overnight. The rest of us bring our kids and let them play downstairs while we have group...I'm hoping she'll see how NATURAL this is and bring her baby along too.

whew.
okay. venting over. I feel better now. I'm just floored that there would be any normal reason to leave a two week old with someone else for a whole night.


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## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

My baby is 8 days old, I could never leave her.... never!!!! I mean not only would she miss me- I cant even imagine how my post-par emotions would deal without my baby.....

I have never left my other daughter either- she is 2- I think it is weird to leave your until they are years old... I mean like 5 or 6....









My sister left her 9 month old- I was shocked, but 2 weeks


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## JesiLynne (Aug 25, 2004)

the only "overnights" my kids have had is with my VERY AP MOM and just b/c I was giving birth! Oh and we were moving and had 12 hours to do it in
and ds1 was over 18 months by then adn had already CLW
Man that makes me mad
I cant imagine leaving one of my babies


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

My kids were several months old before I even went on a date (couple hours)and left them with a grandma. They were several years old before dh and I went away for a whole weekend. I just can't imagine having done it otherwise.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Ummm, not to be a party pooper or anything, but this thread has all of the classic symptoms of becoming one of those "I'm such a perfect AP mom and let me show you the evidence" threads.

Maybe in this new mom's family, leaving a newborn in the loving hands of a family member is the norm. Maybe she has never met moms who think it's unusual. Let's cut her some slack, ok? Yes, most of the moms here at mdc would never leave an 8-wk-old, but that doesn't make the rest of the moms out there evil, heartless and/or pathetic excuses for parents. KWIM?


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## Simply Nurtured (Nov 6, 2004)

I guess I would look at it a little differently, but maybe it is because I have seen lots of new mamas/parents.

It could be that they were very nervous, their first meeting and everything. They might not have known what was expected of them. They might not have known it would be ok to bring the baby. This has happened to us before, where we invited someone over and they did not bring their children. Even though we were assuming they would.

HTH


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fianna*
Ummm, not to be a party pooper or anything, but this thread has all of the classic symptoms of becoming one of those "I'm such a perfect AP mom and let me show you the evidence" threads.


I love you!









Not that I'd leave my 2 week overnight, mind you. And I would probably feel a clenching up inside if I had been at that Bible study.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

I know I've gotten calls at home from new moms asking if they can bring their babies to LLL meetings! We don't exactly have a baby-friendly culture.


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

Well with our society being so unfriendly towards children perhaps she automatically assumed that the baby would be a bother and she wanted to make a good impression. It may not be something many of us here would do but I can see how one might think they have to considering the general attitude towards kids.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fianna*
but that doesn't make the rest of the moms out there evil, heartless and/or pathetic excuses for parents. KWIM?

are you sure???? what about that mom in the parking lot at walmart's?


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

G, I'm trying to appear mature and reasonable at least in one thread. Geesh! Stop luring me over to the jr. high table, would ya'?


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

How long does your Bible study usually last? By two weeks, my second DD had already settled herself into a very predictable schedule, and I would have had no trouble leaving her for an hour or two if I had planned it right and nursed her real good right before I left.

....my firstborn, nope, it never ever could have happened. She needed constant mommy-attention every day, all day long. But my little one, she's really laid back and it would have been no big deal to go somewhere for a little while. It never happened, but it could have and I wouldn't be any worse a mother for it.

eta - the momma said "for the night" that doesn't necessarily mean overnight, unless it's some sort of overnight bible study, which the OP never said it was.


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## Bex80 (Feb 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
are you sure???? what about that mom in the parking lot at walmart's?

Are you referring to me?


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## PrinceE&LsMom (Feb 4, 2003)

Well my sister has her beat...she left her 3 DAY old overnight with a friend so her and her boyfriend could go fishing. She wonders why baby refused to bf after the first week.


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## mar4JC (Sep 27, 2004)

I agree with Fianna... we have enough to worry about without having to become a judging squad for other parents.


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

This was a Bible study?
I could have sworn I read something in that book about judging other people...something Jesus said...what was it?
It's on the tip of my tongue...


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Well, I think it is sad. And I think it is wrong. BUT that is if it was overnight, not for a one hour Bible study.

If it was overnight, yes, I think that is sad and wrong and really just plain sucks. Flame me all you want. It doesn't make me a better mom, but it makes my baby happier.

sarah, proud mama to three babies


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## bunsmom (Feb 25, 2005)

A little judgy....Are you sure she said/meant "for the night", maybe she just meant for the time they were at the study group. Maybe she needed a break and this was her only opportunity.

DD is 6 months and I have been away only twice, once to go to Target when she was about that same age and again at 3 months so I could get my hair cut. Both times DH watched her and I hurried back to BF her.

I just think we Mamas have a hard enough job without judging each other. She obviously felt comfortable in doing it HER WAY. Maybe to her, leaving her with a trusted aunt rather than have a bunch of strangers pawing at her newborn or bringing her newborn out of the house (which to me is a worse situation) is better for HER.

I still don't like strangers, or really anyone other than my parents and DH to hold DD, that is just me, and I bring her everywhere and wear her in a sling so that people WON'T touch/try to hold her, but that is just ME, and I am sure that very nice new Mom has her reasons, give her a break.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Maybe she left the baby with the aunt "for the evening" rather than overnight.


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## bunsmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
This was a Bible study?
I could have sworn I read something in that book about judging other people...something Jesus said...what was it?
It's on the tip of my tongue...











and

:LOL


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Yes, it does make your baby happier, and any other baby who is fortunate enough to have a mom who questions the norm. I wish all babies were so fortunate. Our world would be a much better place, IMO. I'm very thankful that I had people in my life to pave the way for my parenting off of the mainstream. I am grateful that I knew about LLL and had the opportunity to attend meetings. I feel blessed that I had older sisters who co-slept and nursed their toddlers. I am grateful that my family supported my beliefs about parenting and allowed me to go with my heart. I wish all moms had such experiences.


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## amybw (Jul 12, 2004)

i bet "for the night" she meant "for the evening".
that seems like an honest miscommunication.
i have often said tonight and this evening interchangeably

Quote:

Maybe she needed a break and this was her only opportunity.
i was thinking the same thing! maybe she is feeling overwhelmed and just needed a couple hours away. Even if she is bf'ing that is still highly possible.

I left my son at 15 days with my DH for a few hours. Surely there is nothing wrong with that, is there? (Of course i know what is right FOR ME, just thought i'd throw it out there.)









Amy


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

everytime I read this thread title I see Irritated by a new MEMBER








:


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Ard, don't make Dar report you.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

I don't understand why you're so upset.So what if the AUNT has the baby for an hour?You have yours as much around as she does the same.I don't think a couple of hours is going to harm anybody,seriously.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

The OP said "for the night", which is why she was angry.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I can't imagine leaving a newborn at all, but a lot of people do. I think the ladies in your Bible study handled it very compassionately by letting her know her options.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Well, personally, I don't see do *anything* for a bible study, but whatever...


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fianna*
Ard, don't make Dar report you.


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

I think she could have meant that she left the baby for the evening, not overnight, based on the wording.

If I had to go somewhere when my baby was 2 wks old, I'd definately leave him/her with a family member instead of having strangers try to touch or breathe on them. We are really neurotic about going out with a nb for several weeks and I left my first dd w/my mom for a couple hours while I went to Target when she was less than 2 wks old- I didn't want her exposed to the general population that young.


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

not to saound like a smart ass, but whenever something someone else has done my question to myself is "how does it affect me" if some mother leaves her new born overnight with someone she trusts , more power to her.

so, my question to the op is ,..............."how does it affect you?"


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jannan*
not to saound like a smart ass, but whenever something someone else has done my question to myself is "how does it affect me" if some mother leaves her new born overnight with someone she trusts , more power to her.

so, my question to the op is ,..............."how does it affect you?"

I sort of understand what you are saying, but if we all only involved ourselves with things that directly affected us, there would be precious little change in the world.

Also, I cannot imagine any proponant of attachment parenting or breastfeeding saying that it would be acceptable to leave a newborn overnight with someone else, if it were possibly avoidable.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

I think it's dangerous to socialize mothers into believing that you can't ever leave your kids until they are 5 or 6 or whatever age posters in this thread find acceptable. All mothers are different in what makes them good mothers, and for some, that includes time away from their children. I personally think it's preferable for mothers to feel that they can take time off from mothering rather than starting losing it with their kids or sliding down into post partum depression or even into that terrible place where you drown your 5 kids in the bathtub or stab them with knives.

And isn't it just basic that attachment parenting has at its core that you provide for your children's needs, not that you stick like glue to them for 5 years? Perhaps nobody here wants to admit it, but fathers and other family members as well as competent non-relative caregivers are all perfectly capable of providing for a baby's needs, no matter what the age. My 3 1/2 year old has been cared for by several different people, for time periods ranging from 2 hours to 6 days, from when he was about 5 weeks old until now. His needs have always been met, and I'm secure enough in my relationship to him to realize that while nobody can take my place, he does not need me 24 hours a day.

What's irritating in this thread is not the original situation posted about, but the b.s. prescriptions about what mothers have to do in order to be acceptable to some people who wave the AP flag. No wonder tons of people make fun of AP and the kinds of things that people espousing AP say.

I also wish that this forum was less about what other parents do and why we're just so gosh darn great and more about the honest struggles of trying to parent in the best way possible.

Karla


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Newborn baby.
Not five or six years old.
Two weeks old.


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

A couple I know has a preemie son (he's about 7 weeks now and he was 4-5 weeks early) and my niece has gotten him for hours and hours, several times overnight since he came home from the hospital at around 4 weeks. My dd is 8 months old and I still wouldn't dream of leaving her with *anyone* except maybe my mom.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Yes, 2 weeks old. At 2 weeks of age, each of my kids slept a lot! Who on Earth are we to judge this woman for trusting her infant w/a family member for an hour or so of time while she gets a mental sanity break.

Now, that's assuming :LOL Babe was sleeping, it was a short period of time and she'd run home if Babe awoke and needed her.

and

assumptions are ALL that we have







as the OP hasn't clarified.


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## raleigh_mom (Jan 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Newborn baby.
Not five or six years old.
Two weeks old.

But for a couple hours. Not overnight.

Some moms don't need a break. Some do. Sounds like it was for a short time and with a trusted family member. But I am glad that the group made it known that the parents could bring the baby if they wanted to.


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Geez, ya'll.
This is the reason I'm scared to join my local AP group...I'm scared I'll be scrutinized.
This is also the reason I left my old church (well, not the only reason, but one of the main ones).
I always tried to convince myself I was just being paranoid when I felt like the people I met were trying to find my imperfections...like I was under the microscope or something.
To me, AP is less about not leaving your 2 week old with your sister for a couple of hours, but more about _being_ a gentle, loving mama...but to be that, I feel I need to be a gentle loving person in general, as well...
Does that make sense, ya'll?


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Newborn baby.
Not five or six years old.
Two weeks old.

So what's your point? Or do you just like to repeat things?

A 2 week old's needs are a lot more limited than a 5 or 6 year old's-- they need to be fed, burped, changed, held, eased into sleep. All of these things can be done by someone who is not the mother.

Karla


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

major







to what kellyb & lifetapestry have said (cool name, btw LT







)...

just adding a little more perspective: my sister & i are very, very close. we wouldn't hesitate to leave even our newborn's in the other's care, because we have similar parenting beliefs & we trust each other. so i would HATE to be judged by someone for leaving my 2-week old for a short time (and even overnight IS a short time) with her (that would be, in fact, the baby's aunt, as my sister is my children's aunt, just to clarify), because we ARE so similar. we alo have kids who are the same ages, who get along great together. we're -- well gosh, we're like SISTERS we're so close.


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

OK, where did everyone get "an hour" or "a couple hours?"
The OP said "for the night." NOw, yes, the woman COULD have meant for the length of the class, but she could have meant all night, which is what has people upset. It isn't about never ever leaving your kids for even a minute or you're not AP enough. It's about the idea of a newborn being away from mom ALL NIGHT.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

GIve me a break. A two-week-old baby needs to be with his or her mother. I'm not judging anyone, I am stating what I thought was a very basic premise of attachment parenting.


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## Marlet (Sep 9, 2004)

I haven't read all the posts so I hope I'm not repeating something.

How do you know this mom wasn't torn up inside? Cause she readily said what the plans for the night were? Cause she wasn't bawling hysterically or whimpering in the corner? For all you know she could have been putting on a brave front (so to speak) and sucked it up. For all you know she was riddeled with grief and fear that something would happen and she wouldn't be there.

All I have to say is don't count your chickens before they hatch.

ETA: I do not agree with the mom's choice for the baby but I do think it's a little unfair to jump to conclusions about anything she does, kwim?


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*
I think it's dangerous to socialize mothers into believing that you can't ever leave your kids until they are 5 or 6 or whatever age posters in this thread find acceptable. All mothers are different in what makes them good mothers, and for some, that includes time away from their children. I personally think it's preferable for mothers to feel that they can take time off from mothering rather than starting losing it with their kids or sliding down into post partum depression or even into that terrible place where you drown your 5 kids in the bathtub or stab them with knives.

And isn't it just basic that attachment parenting has at its core that you provide for your children's needs, not that you stick like glue to them for 5 years? Perhaps nobody here wants to admit it, but fathers and other family members as well as competent non-relative caregivers are all perfectly capable of providing for a baby's needs, no matter what the age. My 3 1/2 year old has been cared for by several different people, for time periods ranging from 2 hours to 6 days, from when he was about 5 weeks old until now. His needs have always been met, and I'm secure enough in my relationship to him to realize that while nobody can take my place, he does not need me 24 hours a day.

What's irritating in this thread is not the original situation posted about, but the b.s. prescriptions about what mothers have to do in order to be acceptable to some people who wave the AP flag. No wonder tons of people make fun of AP and the kinds of things that people espousing AP say.

I also wish that this forum was less about what other parents do and why we're just so gosh darn great and more about the honest struggles of trying to parent in the best way possible.

Karla


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## bunsmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
major







to what kellyb & lifetapestry have said (cool name, btw LT







)...

just adding a little more perspective: my sister & i are very, very close. we wouldn't hesitate to leave even our newborn's in the other's care, because we have similar parenting beliefs & we trust each other. so i would HATE to be judged by someone for leaving my 2-week old for a short time (and even overnight IS a short time) with her (that would be, in fact, the baby's aunt, as my sister is my children's aunt, just to clarify), because we ARE so similar. we alo have kids who are the same ages, who get along great together. we're -- well gosh, we're like SISTERS we're so close.
























and :LOL

What the OP heard and what the woman SAID might be two different things. We are pretty AP and NFL, but you know what? It is NONE of my business how other people raise their children. Live and let live. If a child was abused etc...THAT is different, but this woman left her child in the care of someone she trusted, and it is no one's business as to why etc...

I would really hate to go to a bible study group (where I would not be caught dead) and then be judged because I wasn't doing things the way they "thought" I should be doing it. This is what drives me crazy about some religious folk, they go on and on about not judging others, etc...but then they are the biggest hypocrites. I know not all Christians etc..are like that, but this woman said it was a Bible study, and this new person that comes in and doesn't bring her baby because everyone else thinks she should, gets judged. LAME!


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Newborn baby.
Not five or six years old.
Two weeks old.


What she said!! This baby has been out of her mother's womb for two weeks.


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## bunsmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lizabethian*
I haven't read all the posts so I hope I'm not repeating something.

How do you know this mom wasn't torn up inside? Cause she readily said what the plans for the night were? Cause she wasn't bawling hysterically or whimpering in the corner? For all you know she could have been putting on a brave front (so to speak) and sucked it up. For all you know she was riddeled with grief and fear that something would happen and she wouldn't be there.

All I have to say is don't count your chickens before they hatch.

ETA: I do not agree with the mom's choice for the baby but I do think it's a little unfair to jump to conclusions about anything she does, kwim?

Right on sister!

I am so sick and tired of being judged by mainstream parents and mine and DH familes for the way we are raising DD, and then we are not AP enough (we don't CD but do everything else) for some others. Do what is best for YOUR family and don't worry about everyone else.








:


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

And, by the way, if anyone would care to go back and look at my original take on this, I said nothing about judging the mother, or about her being a bad mother. I said that letting her know it was OK to bring her baby with her was a great thing to do. I think it sucks that so many moms feel like they have to go against their instincts and leave their baby with other people to meet some sort of societal norm. I hope the mom was torn up inside, not because I want her to feel like crap, but because a mother and a two-week-old baby should not be separated for an overnight, an evening, or even a couple of hours. Babies need access to the mama.

So, in summary
- not judging, but if I believe AP is an ideal, than I believe we should advocate for women not to have to be separated from their newborn babies
- not saying we should jump down her throat; I think they did just the right thing by letting her know it was fine to bring her baby
- having an opinion on something does not make me a judgemental bitch

ETA: If we all only did what was best for our families and never worried about anyone else, this would be a pretty crappy world







:


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Live and let live, unless someone's being abusive.
Give others the benefit of the doubt.
We're not the AP police, you know?
God hasn't appointed us with the duty to go around finding non-AP practices of others (or even amongst ourselves) and spew judgemental, condecending disgust at them.
This woman isn't an APer...so what. We have no reason to believe she isn't still a wonderful mother, and completely attached ,mutually, to her baby.
A few hours away from mom (and assuming someone's innocent until proven guilty, as whether or not it was "overnight" or "for the evening" is a big question mark) isn't going to destroy the mom/baby bond.
Even overnight isn't anything to get all worked up in a knot over.
That would just mean she's probably not an APer. Of course we think AP is best, or we wouldn't be here.
But let's try and keep in mind that our values aren't everyone's.
People can be great parents and have wonderful, attached, happy kids and not be AP.
And none...and I mean none...of us are "perfect" APers ourselves.
I'm really scared a newbie is going to come across this thread and feel unwelcome and unfit to be here if they've left their newborn with their sister to go to a Bible study for a few hours or something.

I came so close to doing that myself when I first joined MDC over a similar thread (different issue, same kinda theme).

Let's try and be compassionate and give this poor woman we don't know squat about the benefit of the doubt.


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
And, by the way, if anyone would care to go back and look at my original take on this, I said nothing about judging the mother, or about her being a bad mother. I said that letting her know it was OK to bring her baby with her was a great thing to do. I think it sucks that so many moms feel like they have to go against their instincts and leave their baby with other people to meet some sort of societal norm. I hope the mom was torn up inside, not because I want her to feel like crap, but because a mother and a two-week-old baby should not be separated for an overnight, an evening, or even a couple of hours. Babies need access to the mama.

So, in summary
- not judging, but if I believe AP is an ideal, than I believe we should advocate for women not to have to be separated from their newborn babies
- not saying we should jump down her throat; I think they did just the right thing by letting her know it was fine to bring her baby
- having an opinion on something does not make me a judgemental bitch

ETA: If we all only did what was best for our families and never worried about anyone else, this would be a pretty crappy world







:

...and I totally agree with all that, Annettmarie.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*
I think it's dangerous to socialize mothers into believing that you can't ever leave your kids until they are 5 or 6 or whatever age posters in this thread find acceptable. All mothers are different in what makes them good mothers, and for some, that includes time away from their children. I personally think it's preferable for mothers to feel that they can take time off from mothering rather than starting losing it with their kids or sliding down into post partum depression or even into that terrible place where you drown your 5 kids in the bathtub or stab them with knives.

And isn't it just basic that attachment parenting has at its core that you provide for your children's needs, not that you stick like glue to them for 5 years? Perhaps nobody here wants to admit it, but fathers and other family members as well as competent non-relative caregivers are all perfectly capable of providing for a baby's needs, no matter what the age. My 3 1/2 year old has been cared for by several different people, for time periods ranging from 2 hours to 6 days, from when he was about 5 weeks old until now. His needs have always been met, and I'm secure enough in my relationship to him to realize that while nobody can take my place, he does not need me 24 hours a day.

What's irritating in this thread is not the original situation posted about, but the b.s. prescriptions about what mothers have to do in order to be acceptable to some people who wave the AP flag. No wonder tons of people make fun of AP and the kinds of things that people espousing AP say.

I also wish that this forum was less about what other parents do and why we're just so gosh darn great and more about the honest struggles of trying to parent in the best way possible.

Karla











Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
This was a Bible study?
I could have sworn I read something in that book about judging other people...something Jesus said...what was it?
It's on the tip of my tongue...

:LOL


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

It sounds to me like the OP was fine to the woman and she and the other women at the group offered support and suggestions, gently showing some other options to the new mom. She came her to vent a bit about her personal feelings, she didn't harangue the poor beleagued newbie but she had a few emotions about it she wanted to just get out. It's not like she's stalking the maternity wards and pontificating on the ideals of AP. It seems like so frequently someone expresses a personal opinion here, in the relative AP "safety" of MDC and gets so slammed for being horrible and judgmental.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
This woman isn't an APer...so what. We have no reason to believe she isn't still a wonderful mother, and completely attached ,mutually, to her baby.

But let's try and keep in mind that our values aren't everyone's.
People can be great parents and have wonderful, attached, happy kids and not be AP.

Let's try and be compassionate and give this poor woman we don't know squat about the benefit of the doubt.

Exactly!
Anyway, being "AP" isn't the only way to be attached and into natural family living.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama*
It sounds to me like the OP was fine to the woman and she and the other women at the group offered support and suggestions, gently showing some other options to the new mom. She came her to vent a bit about her personal feelings, she didn't harangue the poor beleagued newbie but she had a few emotions about it she wanted to just get out. It's not like she's stalking the maternity wards and pontificating on the ideals of AP. It seems like so frequently someone expresses a personal opinion here, in the relative AP "safety" of MDC and gets so slammed for being horrible and judgmental.









oh my god are you serious? please reread the OP! the OP stared open mouthed at the woman and made her uncomfortable and then wouldnt drop it. it's one thing to have an opinion, its another to go out of your way to make someone else feel like shit about it.







:


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

We read it differently.







I thought she was irritated and bit her tongue...I took the "mouth hanging open" part as figurative..I thought she was talking more about how she was feeling than *actually* staring at her aghast, mouth literally open in horror.


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

I just want to apologize to the OP(or anyone else that just feels passionately about AP ideals) for being a little snarky.
We're all playing for the same team here...we all practice and advocate AP.








For some reason I'm reminded of a string of threads and spin-off thread in FAO a while back titled "Are you judgemental about posters who are judgemental?" and "Are you judgemental about posters who are judgemental about posters who are judgemental?"
an infintum.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I can't help thinking, what if this poor mom had PPD and was feeling really depressed inside, and you made her feel like she was a horrible mom just because she left her baby for a few hours?








to other moms, not


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
I'm really scared a newbie is going to come across this thread and feel unwelcome and unfit to be here if they've left their newborn with their sister to go to a Bible study for a few hours or something.

I came so close to doing that myself when I first joined MDC over a similar thread (different issue, same kinda theme).

.









: Thank you for saying this, as a newbie here at MDC, and still learning about AP, after reading this thread I almost wonder if perhaps I have a place here at MDC. I guess its important to remember that not everyone at MDC is a solid AP'er yet (still learning) I have been a Mom for 13 years and by AP standards some of what I did with my son was AP, it was instinctual. Yet I am guilty of having left my son with his dad for a couple of hours when he was about 2 weeks ago because I needed to clear my head and felt like I was losing it. Granted I was 19 when he was born so that may have been a factor.

Some of us are here because we did not feel like we have a place at the maintream boards/groups yet a thread like this can be very intimidating to someone new.


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme*







: Thank you for saying this, as a newbie here at MDC, and still learning about AP, after reading this thread I almost wonder if perhaps I have a place here at MDC. I guess its important to remember that not everyone at MDC is a solid AP'er yet (still learning) I have been a Mom for 13 years and by AP standards some of what I did with my son was AP, it was instinctual. Yet I am guilty of having left my son with his dad for a couple of hours when he was about 2 weeks ago because I needed to clear my head and felt like I was losing it. Granted I was 19 when he was born so that may have been a factor.

Some of us are here because we did not feel like we have a place at the maintream boards/groups yet a thread like this can be very intimidating to someone new.

You totally belong here, Shay. I know that same feeling. It probably took me...I don't know...300 posts or so before I felt like I really deserved to be here.
Threads like these made me feel very







:
Leaving your newborn with his father for a couple of hours does not, in any way, make you a bad AP mom, even by the most strict AP "rules".


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

There are at least two AP schools on MDC. One holds that AP is the best parenting philosophy; that all children and families would be better and happier if ap was practiced. Not Aping is associated with selfishness and ignorance (and basically a lack of love for the children).

OK, you can see from my biased description that I am of another school. The one that says that AP is a good choice for some families (and yes, more info does need to be out there so families who don't know about AP can choose to do it if it is a good fit for the parents'/childrens' temperments). But mainstream parents can and do have happy, attached children. The baby who spent the night with a loving aunt when s/he was two weeks old is as loved as the OP's baby and has just as much of a chance of having a happy childhood as the OP's baby.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
I
For some reason I'm reminded of a string of threads and spin-off thread in FAO a while back titled "Are you judgemental about posters who are judgemental?" and "Are you judgemental about posters who are judgemental about posters who are judgemental?"
an infintum.

OT

Oh, Juniperjoy was so much fun. Remember "honey-toothed dragons"?! Seriously fun.


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Sheesh, scaring the newbies! Shame, shame, shame!

Everyone at Mothering, *gasp* is NOT AP. SOme wish they were, others just have other interests the same as some here. Some dont' care to be!

I did what I felt was best. Reading these threads makes me glad there was no internet when mine were little. I'd have felt a failure.

Leaving your babe with a trusted relative while you attend to your soul sounds fine to me. Leaving your 2 week old downstairs with strangers, or passing her around at some meeting, where everyone would LOVE to hold and cuddle a newborn again, sounds insane.

And fathers are the childs other parent! How could leaving your babe with it's own father be bad? (excepting child abusers, etc, obviously!)

Some of us need to see if we are perfect before we pitch stones at others we don't even know.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Red*
Leaving your babe with a trusted relative while you attend to your soul sounds fine to me. Leaving your 2 week old downstairs with strangers, or passing her around at some meeting, where everyone would LOVE to hold and cuddle a newborn again, sounds insane.

good point.


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## bunsmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Red*
Sheesh, scaring the newbies! Shame, shame, shame!

Everyone at Mothering, *gasp* is NOT AP. SOme wish they were, others just have other interests the same as some here. Some dont' care to be!

I did what I felt was best. Reading these threads makes me glad there was no internet when mine were little. I'd have felt a failure.

Leaving your babe with a trusted relative while you attend to your soul sounds fine to me. Leaving your 2 week old downstairs with strangers, or passing her around at some meeting, where everyone would LOVE to hold and cuddle a newborn again, sounds insane.

And fathers are the childs other parent! How could leaving your babe with it's own father be bad? (excepting child abusers, etc, obviously!)

Some of us need to see if we are perfect before we pitch stones at others we don't even know.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
We're all playing for the same team here...we all practice and advocate AP.









not me.

Red, I loved your post.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

OT ~ boston, you don't advocate or practice attachment parenting?


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Ok...it always seems to come down to this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *user agreement*
What we are about at MotheringDotCommune. MDC serves an online community of parents and parents-to-be considering, learning, practicing, and advocating attachment parenting and natural family living. Our discussions on the boards are about the real world of mothering and are first and foremost, for support and information and Mothering invites you to read and participate in the discussions.

So, I hope we can assume even the least AP/NFL of us are "learning or considering"?
I'm a mix of practicing, learning, considering, and advocating.
I've got all my bases covered.


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## Montana Mom (Jun 24, 2004)

Wow.

I think y'all did the perfect thing by telling her that baby was welcome, etc. Hopefully baby will make a grand entrance next meeting!!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

when I read that someone left their little one with someone else the only conclusion I can come to with any certainty is that their baby takes a bottle.









i've never used bottles, and so my reality doesn't include overnight separations from baby. and frankly, even if I did use bottles of EBM, I cannot IMAGINE how much pain I would be in from engorged breasts (yikes!), or how such a separation would affect my milk....or how I'd even have pumped enough milk in those two weeks to last for an overnight....

so for me, overnight visit at two weeks = formula
separation of longer than 1.5 - 2 hours = bottle (perhaps EBM)

sometimes i get so caught up in my lifestyle i forget that others have different options. who am i to tell them how to use them or when?


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

let's not forget that people can formula feed and still attachment-parent.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Red*
Leaving your babe with a trusted relative while you attend to your soul sounds fine to me. Leaving your 2 week old downstairs with strangers, or passing her around at some meeting, where everyone would LOVE to hold and cuddle a newborn again, sounds insane.









ITA.







I barely left the house until a month after ds was born...and if I had, I certainly wouldn't be passing him around among a bunch of people I had just met and the thought of shipping him downstairs with other children and still more people I have never met (christians or not) is hilarious to me.








As far as leaving him overnight, not in a million years would I have even considered it...I still wouldn't consider it and ds is 20 months old.







But that's my lifestyle and perogative, there could be a hundred reasons why this mama chose to leave her baby overnight...and who said she practices "AP" parenting anyway?


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
let's not forget that people can formula feed and still attachment-parent.









As I did and do...














:
Although I regret it immensely. I was uninformed and alone, without the internet or experienced friends...
Not trying to make excuses, but that's the real deal...
So, go ahead and tell me I'm not supposed to be here.
I already feel like crap.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
As I did and do...














:
Although I regret it immensely. I was uninformed and alone, without the internet or experienced friends...
Not trying to make excuses, but that's the real deal...
So, go ahead and tell me I'm not supposed to be here.
I already feel like crap.

If you don't belong here, then neither do I. I tried, tried my hardest to breastfeed, but like you I was uninformed, unaware of my resources, and under the influence of pediatricians who made me afraid I was harming my baby.









I defy anyone to tell me I have no right to be here!


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## hjohnson (Mar 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Red*
Sheesh, scaring the newbies! Shame, shame, shame!

Everyone at Mothering, *gasp* is NOT AP. SOme wish they were, others just have other interests the same as some here. Some dont' care to be!

I did what I felt was best. Reading these threads makes me glad there was no internet when mine were little. I'd have felt a failure.

Leaving your babe with a trusted relative while you attend to your soul sounds fine to me. Leaving your 2 week old downstairs with strangers, or passing her around at some meeting, where everyone would LOVE to hold and cuddle a newborn again, sounds insane.

And fathers are the childs other parent! How could leaving your babe with it's own father be bad? (excepting child abusers, etc, obviously!)

Some of us need to see if we are perfect before we pitch stones at others we don't even know.


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Well, I love it when I say something others enjoy. (I hate getting yelled at, and you never know!)

To those who feed with a bottle...did you make the best decision you could with the info you had available at the time? THen no guilt. If you made the decision and now feel you should have known better, that's what life is all about! But dont' beat yourself up or feel you don't belong here. Not everyone here co-sleeps, some have circumsized(!), some people scream at their kids, or don't disipline at all. Most do their best every day. My oldest BF til she was 1 month old.







Then the dumb pedi old me she was too fat and to give her 1% milk! She slept in another room! I was weird enough just using cloth diapers.

I didn't 'find' Mothering, or any of the things it represents until shortly before #3 was born. Fascinating! Wow! People DO that? What an eye opener. I wans't interested in AP at all, but hearing about it made me see the wisdom of some of it. The same with NP, though I'm not sure what falls under what category. Suddenly, cloth diapers were the norm, at least within the magazine.

I often visit a veg site, though I'm not a veg. They are nice people, sense of community, and they welcome everyone, knowing that eventually, they'll win some others over. They just ask theat you not talk about how to use up the leftover turkey carcass, etc.

I don't mean to speak for Mothering, but wouldn't it be better if we all tried harder to support each other, to imagine we'd actually have to talk, face-to-face, in the morning? If a new mother says her baby is with a relative for the night, doesn't it make sense to say, "Oh, please bring her, if you'd like." Is it anyone's business if she chooses to AP?

I left my 5 kids, including my 2 month old twins, all of them, with their aunt, my closest friend, for two hours and had dinner with my DH. Shoot me. My adopted son never even SAW a drop of breast milk. I soemtimes yelled so loud I thought I'd pop something in my brain. I'm not proud of it, but I'm still a mother, still trying hard, still here at Mothering.

If everyone who 'didn't belong here' left, It would be awfully quiet and lonely here.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

I wouldnt assume someone was formula feeding because she left her 2 week old overnight. I pumped for the first month, exclusively, and, well...that shows how much milk one might be able to pump from the getgo.

And THANK YOU to those who continue to stick up for formula feeding moms. Thank you.

I don't think that each time a mom says she formula feeds/fed that she needs to add "and I feel so horrible about it." If you feel horrible, then I'm SO sorry!! I know your pain, I went through it myself for a time. But I've learned that a great big omg-I-FF guilt trip is not necessary! It doesn't help us be good moms if we beat ourselves up. It is also not required that we hate ourselves or shame each other for our non-NFL or non-AP choices.

Breast feeding is not the end-all-be-all of good mothering, or even AP for that matter. Some people actually CAN have the kind of relationship that we value so much here by doing things slightly different than is prescribed by our revered parenting gurus. Honestly.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

oh dear...there was no judgement in my post. my point was, maybe we get used to the way we do things and forget that others have different realities. feeding formula doesn't make you a bad parent, or even a non-AP parent, but it does give you options that others may not have. my point was not to judge others on using options they have available to them just b/c they aren't your options or choices. please let's not start the ridiculous "can you be AP and FF" nonsense.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Goodness me, ff/ap nonsense aside, I am still most interested to know about these overnight Bible study sessions....









Or was it just a few hours??


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aussiemum*
Goodness me, ff/ap nonsense aside, I am still most interested to know about these overnight Bible study sessions....









me too. it sounds hot. :LOL


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Whadaya wanna bet that it's not nearly so hot as it sounds??










:LOL


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Um... from the OP, do we (or for the matter, the OP herself) know that the Aunt wasn't STAYING with the woman in question? I know that for the first couple of weeks that I had a newborn I had someone staying with us to help out. For me, it was my mom, but maybe for this woman it is her sister? I can see lots of ways that the woman's remark could have been misinterpreted (evening vs. overnight) and assumptions made without knowing any of the actual facts.


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## mommykof5 (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes give the new mother some slack unless you know her personal background history. I have only left my children with family members however I have watched other peoples children. Some people are good with children some are not. Apperently she felt the aunt was good enough to watch her precious child. The remark "our first" obviously shows she is very proud. She may have not known about the home study being family friendly or she may have been very concerned about her child picking up some kind of virus from another child. Most first time mothers worry about this a lot. She may have been told that having the baby out at night in the night air could cause colic. Again another myth that many first time mothers worry about. There are MANY things that she could have been worried about. Perhaps she was/is not coping too well after the birth of her first child and is dealing with a lot of unexpected stress and or baby blues and needed a few hours by herself w/other grow ups. One can not judge ones parenting instints from one "I would never do that" moment. We all have done an oops here or there no one is perfect. A person should be seen by a comulation of thier actions. Try calling her and asking how she is doing. See if she would like to meet at the park or for dessert. See if she needs any help. Take over a covered dish that could be frozen for latter use. (that was the best thing ANYONE ever did for me) Perhaps she would like someone who has been there and done that so she can learn the ropes of mother hood. I think in today's society there are too many women who are left to thier own devices as far as the parenting road is concerned. You used to have extended family who knew all sorts of stuff about babies now women are lucky if they have one or two relatives that are close by and or care enough to take the time with them. Being a woman is like opening a door to a new world and becoming a mother is like joining a sisterhood. I say embrace her and welcome her with open arms. We all have something we can impart and something we need to learn.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Don't even get me started on the "well if it's overnight, the baby must be on Formula" comment









I think the OP had a responsibility to keep her opinions and judgemental expressions to herself and not judge this new mother.

If the OP is not privy to information in the new mommy's household, then it really is not in her place to draw *judgemental conclusions*.

It is threads like this that keep women in bondage of *Post Partum Depression*.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
There are at least two AP schools on MDC. One holds that AP is the best parenting philosophy; that all children and families would be better and happier if ap was practiced. Not Aping is associated with selfishness and ignorance (and basically a lack of love for the children).

OK, you can see from my biased description that I am of another school. The one that says that AP is a good choice for some families (and yes, more info does need to be out there so families who don't know about AP can choose to do it if it is a good fit for the parents'/childrens' temperments). But mainstream parents can and do have happy, attached children. The baby who spent the night with a loving aunt when s/he was two weeks old is as loved as the OP's baby and has just as much of a chance of having a happy childhood as the OP's baby.

Don't forget the third school of thought (voiced pretty clearly by some on this thread): those who appear to promote "attachment parenting" when what they REALLY mean is "attachment mothering."


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydee*
Don't forget the third school of thought (voiced pretty clearly by some on this thread): those who appear to promote "attachment parenting" when what they REALLY mean is "attachment mothering."









What does attachment mothering mean?


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydee*
Don't forget the third school of thought (voiced pretty clearly by some on this thread): those who appear to promote "attachment parenting" when what they REALLY mean is "attachment mothering."









Also wanting some clarifiation as to what "attachment mothering" means and what the accompanying eye roll means. If by "attachment mothering" you are refering to the belief that the mother is the prefered care giver in the first weeks and months and early years of life, then I am not surprised that many people on this forum fit this. In Peggy O'mara's latest editorial she addresses this.

From Mothering Issue 129 A Quiet Place: Mothers and Fathers by Peggy O'mara

"Most couples also aspire to the equal sharing of parenting tasks. Some mothers even go so far as to bottle-feed so that their husbands, too, can feed the baby. Others work out complicated nighttime arrangements to take turns being up in the night with the baby. However, something happens when the new baby comes that throws a monkey wrench into the whole equality thing: The baby prefers the mother.

Blasphemous as it may seem to say so, there is a biological imperative that bumps up uncomfortably against our strivings for gender equality. Breastfeeding, essential to a baby's optimum health, necessitates exclusivity between baby and mother during the early months. This can contribute to a dad feeling left out and unsure of his own role, and to a mom feeling overwhelmed.

In traditional societies, the new mother-baby dyad was protected by other women, grandmothers, and midwives. The protection was ritualized into a seclusion period of 30 to 40 days following the birth, during which the new mother and child rested, got to know each other, and established the milk supply. During this early time of adjustment the mother was fed and taught by the experienced mothers, and the nursing couple was kept warm and protected from outside stimulation and infection. This seclusion period was essential to the survival of the new baby and mother."

"While it is a biological imperative that makes the mother and baby prefer one another during the early months, that preference is also related to how much time they spend together. Those dads who are around the baby a lot, engage more with the baby, and are willing to be responsive to the needs of mother and baby, develop closer relationships with their children sooner, and perhaps more reliably.

After the first few months, when the breastfeeding relationship is fully established and becomes routine, the baby reaches out for the father and then for the siblings, and begins to relate more to them. This delay in attachment can be hard on dad, especially if he is proud of being an enlightened man. Once he accepts the fact that the baby needs mom more in the early months, his role becomes more obvious. His job is to take care of the mother. If the most important thing in our life is family, then family has to come first. We must value ourselves not according to cultural stereotypes, but by how valuable we are to our family. In the early years of parenting, this means putting the needs of the mother first because she is putting the needs of the baby first. This means self-sacrifice for mother and father, but sacrifice builds character and personal capacity. The baby's needs are most urgent in the early years, when those needs require constant physical contact. A healthy family will respond to those needs unselfishly, not reluctantly or grudgingly."

"The irony of the early months and years of parenting is that a shift occurs. While mothers bond with their children through nurturing, fathers bond through play. Once the attachment period is past and the child's survival is assured, it's all about dad. Dad is the gateway to the larger world.

Fathers must follow the lead of their wives in the early years, trusting her instinctual intelligence and her mother's wisdom. It is real. And, during those vulnerable early years, they must protect their wives and children. This is as it has always been in the animal kingdom.

Mothers must take responsibility for their own emotions, ask for help when they need it, and not blame their husbands when things go wrong. Sometimes things just fall apart."


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

No, I'm with Kadee on this one (and a bit suspect of the biological imperative stuff; wet nurses are common in tribal situations so it isn't always a mom-baby dyiad - not that tribal cultures are any more "natural" and thus right or any less driven by cultural norms than western society). There have been a lot of threads on this topic and many mamas feel like their partners (and even grandparents or aunts) can be attached caregivers to thier babies even in the first weeks and months of life. Breastfeeding is the only thing they can't do, and we can pump.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

wow, OT but that editorial is enough to make me not ever subscribe to Mothering. Very limited ideas of what the roles in an ap family can and should look like . . .


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmer mama*
Also wanting some clarifiation as to what "attachment mothering" means and what the accompanying eye roll means. If by "attachment mothering" you are refering to the belief that the mother is the prefered care giver in the first weeks and months and early years of life, then I am not surprised that many people on this forum fit this. In Peggy O'mara's latest editorial she addresses this.

Oh--I thought it was pretty clear.







To me, attachment mothering is what's advocated when people talk about attachment parenting, but seem to ascribe most of the necessary work to the mother. This has happened in this thread, as well as in much of Sears writing, etc. The eyeroll is there because I find it a frustrating attitude. I believe in the power of fathers (and other loving adults) to help children form healthy attachments. I believe that much of the work of attachment parenting can, in fact, be done by either (or both) parents. But others disagree.

I have no doubt that a fair number of MDC members have this essentialist view--much of our society does. But that doesn't mean its the only way to conceptualize--or practice!--attachment parenting.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydee*
Oh--I thought it was pretty clear.







To me, attachment mothering is what's advocated when people talk about attachment parenting, but seem to ascribe most of the necessary work to the mother. This has happened in this thread, as well as in much of Sears writing, etc. The eyeroll is there because I find it a frustrating attitude. I believe in the power of fathers (and other loving adults) to help children form healthy attachments. I believe that much of the work of attachment parenting can, in fact, be done by either (or both) parents. But others disagree.

I have no doubt that a fair number of MDC members have this essentialist view--much of our society does. But that doesn't mean its the only way to conceptualize--or practice!--attachment parenting.

very well said


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I'm totally with kaydee.

I'm also irritated at the OP of this thread for being so judgemental and unsupportive of a new mother. The fact that all of this took place at a Bible study is just hilarious to me. I'm sure that in that situation, Jesus would have run home and told a bunch of strangers about how awful that woman was.

When we have a babysitter, I say that my kids are with them "for the night" even if I just mean a few hours. I also left each of my kids around three weeks or so, right before my mom ended her visit after their births, so that my husband and I could go out together. I'm not a bad mother because of that. I'm not uninformed. I'm not anti-attachment parenting because of that. What frustrates me is how horribly unsupportive our society is of new mothers, of mothers altogether, and this thread is such a great example of that.

If I said what I thought of that editorial I'd probably get banned. I'm confused as to what she meant by "traditional societies". Traditional in what culture? Where? Who are these "nobel savages" I keep reading about? That editorial is essentializing motherhood at best and downright racist at worst. I don't think that is what attachment parenting is about at ALL.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Okay, I can understand what you are saying. I wasn't really trying to make any point other than the fact that many MDC users are Mothering readers, that MDC is an extension of Mothering's and Peggy's philosophies, so it isn't surprising that many would take the position that the early months are mom-and-baby centered. If that makes any sense...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
wow, OT but that editorial is enough to make me not ever subscribe to Mothering. Very limited ideas of what the roles in an ap family can and should look like . . .

Just to be fair mamawanabe, I only took out paragraphs illustrating ideas to support the idea of "attachment mothering". The editorial is much longer and does address gender equality and the father's role. The full article is on the Mothering website. I would hate to have someone form an opinion based solely on what I plucked out as relevant to the conversation.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

Okay, I can understand what you are saying. I wasn't really trying to make any point other than the fact that many MDC users are Mothering readers, that MDC is an extension of Mothering's and Peggy's philosophies, so it isn't surprising that many would take the position that the early months are mom-and-baby centered. If that makes any sense.
Does taking that view include trashing those who do not, or share a variation of that view? Because I actually believe that the mother is the most important figure in an child's life beyond infancy, but that doesn't mean that I can't accept that others might disagree and can still be good parents even given that very basic difference in how we might view the mother's role. I don't get what is so AP or NFL about judging others so harshly or taking such a superior tone when speaking about others.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
Does taking that view include trashing those who do not, or share a variation of that view? Because I actually believe that the mother is the most important figure in an child's life beyond infancy, but that doesn't mean that I can't accept that others might disagree and can still be good parents even given that very basic difference in how we might view the mother's role. I don't get what is so AP or NFL about judging others so harshly or taking such a superior tone when speaking about others.

I was trying to address the idea that there is something wrong with "attachment mothering", because the bulk of the work of parenting is what I do, because I do have the breasts and I am with my kids 24/7. I wasn't really trying to defend anyone's posts on this thread. I was just pointing out that I am not surprised that many moms here would be advocating not having separation from your newborn in the first weeks. Of course trashing other moms or judging harshly is out of line. Personally I would not leave a baby that young, and I would be surprised to see someone out that soon wiithout their baby. But that mom is free to make her own decisions about what is right for her family, and I would still support her as a mother. I think I am getting myself way outta my depth here...


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I'm sorry, farmer mama, I totally didn't mean to attack you. I think we're probably pretty much on the same page, but it did come off like you were defending the right of the OP to attack another mother in the name of attachment parenting. I see now that you weren't trying to do that.

Attachment mothering is great if that is how you and your family choose to raise your children. However, the idea that in order to have children who are attached you must parent in this one very specific way and your family dynamic must fall neatly within these lines and if you don't then it is the mother's fault and she has no one else to blame is an idea that I take issue with. I don't take issue with people who do fall within those lines, just the idea that we must.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

mamawanabe, please don't judge the magazine based solely on that editorial!!

fwiw ~ my daughter preferred my partner over me from about day 1. she does love nursing... but most of the time she just prefers her daddy.







[eta ~ we joke about this being due to the fact that daddy saved her from falling in the toilet.] so i think that saying ALL children "instinctively" prefer the mother is silly... just like saying the mother should be the primary caregiver. IMO, as long as children have stable relationships with their primary caregivers & family members, they can be perfectly attached and emotionally healthy.









when my son was just over a month old, i left him for a weekend with my partner so i could attend my brother's wedding. he was fine, they bonded well, and _i don't regret it at all_. (oops, i better surrender my AP badge...)

when my daughter was also about that age, i began leaving her w/ my partner in the afternoons while i job-searched... then w/ him for whole days... like i've said, she already preffered him, so i think i'm really the only one who had to adjust a lot.


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## pinkmommy (Mar 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama*
It sounds to me like the OP was fine to the woman and she and the other women at the group offered support and suggestions, gently showing some other options to the new mom. She came her to vent a bit about her personal feelings, she didn't harangue the poor beleagued newbie but she had a few emotions about it she wanted to just get out. It's not like she's stalking the maternity wards and pontificating on the ideals of AP. It seems like so frequently someone expresses a personal opinion here, in the relative AP "safety" of MDC and gets so slammed for being horrible and judgmental.




















I saw it as a vent, too.

I remember babysitting a one week old baby when I was 16 yrs old. I was so scared - had no experience with very young babies. Yeah, it is different than leaving the baby with the aunt, but I honestly just can't imagine leaving my two week old baby with anyone else.

I am kind of laughing because people are judging the OP for judging - and now I am judging the people who are judging the OP for judging. Well, I don't mean to judge, but I guess I have my values and they differ than others - so I guess that is judging. I see it as ok that the OP vented here - at a site that leans toward AP. It doesn't mean everyone has to agree with her, but I do think it is fine that she feels sad that a two week old is away from her mother for a Bible Study. Those are her feelings.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

No, making judgements on the OP as a person or a mother based on one statement would be judging. Speaking out against yet another person who feels as though they have the answers to all mothering problems is not judging.


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## nycapmom (Jan 30, 2005)

Originally Posted by BlueStateMama
It sounds to me like the OP was fine to the woman and she and the other women at the group offered support and suggestions, gently showing some other options to the new mom. She came her to vent a bit about her personal feelings, she didn't harangue the poor beleagued newbie but she had a few emotions about it she wanted to just get out. It's not like she's stalking the maternity wards and pontificating on the ideals of AP. It seems like so frequently someone expresses a personal opinion here, in the relative AP "safety" of MDC and gets so slammed for being horrible and judgmental.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmommy*









I saw it as a vent, too.

I remember babysitting a one week old baby when I was 16 yrs old. I was so scared - had no experience with very young babies. Yeah, it is different than leaving the baby with the aunt, but I honestly just can't imagine leaving my two week old baby with anyone else.

I am kind of laughing because people are judging the OP for judging - and now I am judging the people who are judging the OP for judging. Well, I don't mean to judge, but I guess I have my values and they differ than others - so I guess that is judging. I see it as ok that the OP vented here - at a site that leans toward AP. It doesn't mean everyone has to agree with her, but I do think it is fine that she feels sad that a two week old is away from her mother for a Bible Study. Those are her feelings.

Thank you bluestatemama and pinkmommy. You both sum up my feelings quite nicely









Where is the OP anyway? Please do not be afraid to come back


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

So we've spent 100 posts getting our knickers in a twist when we don't even know what the evil mom in question meant by "for the night"?

Wow, don't we lead decadent lives!










Namaste!


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## nycapmom (Jan 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
So we've spent 100 posts getting our knickers in a twist when we don't even know what the evil mom in question meant by "for the night"?

Wow, don't we lead decadent lives!









Namaste!

That happens a lot here at MDC







For the record though, nobody called her evil...


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## Yin Yang (Jul 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmommy*









I am kind of laughing because people are judging the OP for judging - and now I am judging the people who are judging the OP for judging. Well, I don't mean to judge, but I guess I have my values and they differ than others - so I guess that is judging. I see it as ok that the OP vented here - at a site that leans toward AP. It doesn't mean everyone has to agree with her, but I do think it is fine that she feels sad that a two week old is away from her mother for a Bible Study. Those are her feelings.


I coulds not say it any better. This is one of the reasons I don't really post here any more. You are all so wonderful are you? You NEVER say ANYTHINg about anyone. You never have any feelings about anyone and anything, and at last....you never talk about anyone, do YOU???? You NEVER do such thing, because you are all saint. You are perfect. I am so sick of this.









If you were in the OP's situation you would have THE EXACT SAME THOUGHTS in your head as she did!! You could not help it! It's only natural to think that if you have never left your baby with anyone else. But it does not mean you are judging the person or you think the person is bad. It's just a reaction to something someone just said for god sake!







: Just give her freaking break!

I just posted something very similar to this yesterday because something like that happened to me and I just wanted to vent.....but what wa sI occused of? JUDGING! All I was doing was expressing my feelings...........like you NEVER do such thing. BEcause you are SO PERFECT.
Oh my god, I can't believe where this forum has gone to..........


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

A thread about how unthinkable it is that a mom of a 2 week old would leave the baby with her sister for a few hours while she went to a bible study is insulting to a large chunk of the MDC community.
How does it help you be a better mom to talk about how you would never, ever do such a horrible thing?
This is not one of those subjects that's an AP no-brainer.
This is a subject that is in the grey zone.
You should be able to consider yourself an AP parent and leave your 2 week old with your sister for a few hours without fearing that other AP moms will see you, and be visibly disgusted by your actions, gritting their teeth, so that a non-AP mom has to step in and "redirect" the conversation away from your mortal AP sin.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yin Yang*
If you were in the OP's situation you would have THE EXACT SAME THOUGHTS in your head as she did!! You could not help it! It's only natural to think that if you have never left your baby with anyone else.

You are not making any sense whatsoever. The reason why some of us posted is because we do NOT agree that "it's only natural". I would not have been irritated by a new mother being out without her baby -- whether or not I would do the same thing would depend upon how I felt at the time.

The reason why I disagree with the perspective of the OP is because I don't think that attachment parenting has anything at all to do with leaving or not leaving your kids. I also find it interesting that lots of people interpret it this way-- most times, I think, it's an implicit critique of working mothers.

You can be with your kids 24/7 and still not provide for their needs. Your simple presence is not a guarantee that you are meeting their needs. Neither is leaving them, whether for an hour or a day or a week or whatever, a guarantee that you are not meeting their needs. It depends on what needs your kid has and the capabilities of the caregivers, but it is very possible that multiple people can meet a child's needs on any given day.

Karla


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yin Yang*
I coulds not say it any better. This is one of the reasons I don't really post here any more. You are all so wonderful are you? You NEVER say ANYTHINg about anyone. You never have any feelings about anyone and anything, and at last....you never talk about anyone, do YOU???? You NEVER do such thing, because you are all saint. You are perfect. I am so sick of this.









If you were in the OP's situation you would have THE EXACT SAME THOUGHTS in your head as she did!! You could not help it! It's only natural to think that if you have never left your baby with anyone else. But it does not mean you are judging the person or you think the person is bad. It's just a reaction to something someone just said for god sake!







: Just give her freaking break!

I just posted something very similar to this yesterday because something like that happened to me and I just wanted to vent.....but what wa sI occused of? JUDGING! All I was doing was expressing my feelings...........like you NEVER do such thing. BEcause you are SO PERFECT.
Oh my god, I can't believe where this forum has gone to..........


I don't want to make jen123 feel bad. But, no, I actively work to train myself not to judge the parenting practices of the loving well-meaning moms I see at at the malls and the bagle shop. I do sometimes immediately think "hold your baby" or "loose the mouthplug," but I know that thinking these things is wrong and that good mothering/happy, healthy kids has very little to do with buckets/no buckets or pacifiers/no pacifiers or even the overnight babysitting of newborns. And I think part of what has helped me to start training myself out of judging are threads like these. Some well-meaning mama comes to vent about the bad parenting practice of some mama she saw at the mall or at bible study, and a bunch of posters call her on it. It is part of how I've learned and grown on Mothering. This isn't the response Jen123 expected when she started this thread, and it isn't the response a gungho ap newbie expected when she opened this thread, but it is the response that will help mothers train themselves to be supportive and non-judgemental of mothers who make different decisions but who love thier kids as much as we love ours.

And a world where people can advocate for the practices that work for them while accepting the practices others choose is actually a world where OUR practices would more accpeted. A world where WE wouldn't won't get grief about extended breastfeeding or co-sleeping. The no judgement thing would benefits us more than mainstream mamas because our practices are the ones out of the norm and thus the ones most frequnetly being judged harshly by relatives and aquaintances. You guys do know that mothering.com is referred to as smothering.com; that a lot of mothers vent on other boards about ap mothers they know caring more about themselves than thier kids and thus not allowing their kids to grow up "naturally" . . . If the judging stopped, if we could advocate AND accept, think how much less defensive a job mothering (whatever your persuasion) would be. Think what a larger community and how much more support we would have.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*
I would not have been irritated by a new mother being out without her baby -- whether or not I would do the same thing would depend upon how I felt at the time.

The reason why I disagree with the perspective of the OP is because I don't think that attachment parenting has anything at all to do with leaving or not leaving your kids. I also find it interesting that lots of people interpret it this way-- most times, I think, it's an implicit critique of working mothers.

You can be with your kids 24/7 and still not provide for their needs. Your simple presence is not a guarantee that you are meeting their needs. Neither is leaving them, whether for an hour or a day or a week or whatever, a guarantee that you are not meeting their needs. It depends on what needs your kid has and the capabilities of the caregivers, but it is very possible that multiple people can meet a child's needs on any given day.

Karla

this is a good point


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## sweetest (May 6, 2004)

mamawannabe









Thanks for saying that! I lurked for quite a while before I even became I member because I go to school and I didnt know if this was the right place for me, as I did leave my 3 week old to go to class.

There are so many wonderful, well thought out women here who are truly supportive


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
So we've spent 100 posts getting our knickers in a twist when we don't even know what the evil mom in question meant by "for the night"?

Wow, don't we lead decadent lives!









Namaste!









:


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
I don't want to make jen123 feel bad. But, no, I actively work to train myself not to judge the parenting practices of the loving well-meaning moms I see at at the malls and the bagle shop. I do sometimes immediately think "hold your baby" or "loose the mouthplug," but I know that thinking these things is wrong and that good mothering/happy, healthy kids has very little to do with buckets/no buckets or pacifiers/no pacifiers or even the overnight babysitting of newborns. And I think part of what has helped me to start training myself out of judging are threads like these. Some well-meaning mama comes to vent about the bad parenting practice of some mama she saw at the mall or at bible study, and a bunch of posters call her on it. It is part of how I've learned and grown on Mothering. This isn't the response Jen123 expected when she started this thread, and it isn't the response a gungho ap newbie expected when she opened this thread, but it is the response that will help mothers train themselves to be supportive and non-judgemental of mothers who make different decisions but who love thier kids as much as we love ours.

And a world where people can advocate for the practices that work for them while accepting the practices others choose is actually a world where OUR practices would more accpeted. A world where WE wouldn't won't get grief about extended breastfeeding or co-sleeping. The no judgement thing would benefits us more than mainstream mamas because our practices are the ones out of the norm and thus the ones most frequnetly being judged harshly by relatives and aquaintances. You guys do know that mothering.com is referred to as smothering.com; that a lot of mothers vent on other boards about ap mothers they know caring more about themselves than thier kids and thus not allowing their kids to grow up "naturally" . . . If the judging stopped, if we could advocate AND accept, think how much less defensive a job mothering (whatever your persuasion) would be. Think what a larger community and how much more support we would have.









:


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## JavaFinch (May 26, 2002)

I can understand where the OP is coming from. I went to a MOPS meeting once when ds was about 3 - he stayed home with dh - and besides the fact that most of the moms put their children in the daycare while the meeting went on (children were not welcome in the meetings, which is the main reason I didn't like MOPS and never went back), there was one mom who talked about this overnight biking thing (several nights) she did every year and she had small children (one would have been an infant). It's not really that I felt "JUDGMENT" toward her, but I just couldn't relate, if that makes sense. I mean yeah, I like to bike and the thing sounded fun, but as a mother of an infant or small toddler, the cons of leaving my baby to go on a fun outing for *me* would have outweighed said "fun".

My old boss joked about her fear that her baby would 'forget her' when she and her dh took a 2-week vacation to Asia shortly after their son was born - she left him with a friend for those two weeks. I don't know his exact age, but I know it was before 6 weeks old. 2 weeks.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JDsMommy*

My old boss joked about her fear that her baby would 'forget her' when she and her dh took a 2-week vacation to Asia shortly after their son was born - she left him with a friend for those two weeks. I don't know his exact age, but I know it was before 6 weeks old. 2 weeks.

Okay, I've been lurking, and I try to be pretty anti-judging, but this is WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

It's not really that I felt "JUDGMENT" toward her, but I just couldn't relate, if that makes sense. I mean yeah, I like to bike and the thing sounded fun, but as a mother of an infant or small toddler, the cons of leaving my baby to go on a fun outing for *me* would have outweighed said "fun".
I feel this, too, sometimes, but I don't make conversation with others about it because I know how I feel when people make conversation about _me_ in these situations.

When my son was four, my husband and I split up for four months. I was looking at being a single mom with three-fourths of a bachelor's degree. My husband and I were barely making it together, and maintaining two households was driving us into serious debt (which we are still paying off). I could have taken an $8/hr job in the town we were in or I could fly to NYC for a week and interview for a job that paid almost four times that. I flew to NYC. My son's childcare provider was long on judgement and I ended up taking him out of the center because of it. She went on and on about how she could _never_ leave her babies for _any_ reason and on and on. I wasn't leaving him with a stranger I met on the Internet, I was leaving him with his father.

Throwing out this kind of negative energy is just bad karma and it makes it more difficult on all of us. I have a really hard time listening to moms at playgroup talking about CIO. When it is appropriate, I try to offer suggestions or solutions that have helped me and recommend reading that discourages CIO, but at the end of the day I'm not the one dealing with that screaming baby. Same thing with leaving infants. I've always been much more inclined to leave my babies in the care of others than most people here, I guess. For the first year usually just when my parents come to visit or with my husband and I go out alone, but I crave solitude. I need lots of alone time. Maybe it's because I'm a writer, it seems to come with the territory for some (not all) of us. We're a military family and don't live near relatives. We use babysitters a few times a year to go out because if we didn't, we'd never get any time alone together. Maybe everyone doesn't need that, but we do.

We all have our own comfort levels within our families. I don't use teenage babysitters. I have in the past, when I only had one, but I don't anymore. In my opinion, eating meat is far more damaging to a child than leaving him or her with a babysitter. I don't have to bite my tongue every time I see a kid eat a hamburger. If we all tried to parent within everyone else's comfort zone-- that would be impossible.

I read the threads about people dealing with friends or inlaws who disapprove of their parenting choices and then read these threads and see that it is really the same thing. The OP didn't state that she talked to the mother or tried to make her more comfortable with bringing the infant or inquired about how she was coping with a new baby-- she got angry by her own admission. That's the kind of crap that new mothers really don't need.


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## melissa17s (Aug 3, 2004)

I heard a radio show on NPR- Freshair, which was an author of a book about parenting in the US and the isolation of new mothers. She was talking about the differernce in support new mothers get her versus France, which was where she was from. She talked about the role of parents, govenmental support, and finally support from other mothers (which she felt was lacking in the US). I have to agree with the other mamas here that are bothered by the negative judgement. Why isn't the op trying to find ways to help and support this woman in her new role?


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
I read the threads about people dealing with friends or inlaws who disapprove of their parenting choices and then read these threads and see that it is really the same thing.







































I really don't understand why people don't see that what goes around, comes around.

Namaste!


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Okay, I've been lurking, and I try to be pretty anti-judging, but this is WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!










How about saying:

I was uncomfortable hearing that because I could never imagine doing such a thing.

how would you like it if someone called one of your parenting choices WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG, without knowing very much about you, your child or the situation?

Really -- if we want people to stop judging us for cosleeping, EBF, etc., we have to get off the high horses and admit that we are not parenting everyone else's children, just our own.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nancy926*
How about saying:

I was uncomfortable hearing that because I could never imagine doing such a thing.

how would you like it if someone called one of your parenting choices WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG, without knowing very much about you, your child or the situation?

Really -- if we want people to stop judging us for cosleeping, EBF, etc., we have to get off the high horses and admit that we are not parenting everyone else's children, just our own.

Thank you Nancy. Somehow, people forget they are *IMPERFECT*.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Uh, I have read all 116 posts, and i know there are quite a few of us here that are in no position to judge anyone (myself included).

Lifestapestry, loved your last post, mama.

Changing my sig.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Yes, we do all need to support each other as mothers and as women, but I think (hope?) within that support there is room for not supporting a practice. I am not necessarily refering to the original post, but just any practices that are contrary to our beliefs. I don't need for some mom who is anti-cosleeping or provax to support me in cosleeping or not vaxing, but I do expect that she would treat me with respect and kindness, and I would certainly do the same for her. That respect would also most likely mean I would not comment on her practices, but more try to be an example of how you can do something diferent. I do however think there may even be room for emotions like irritation or even anger, while still being able to be respectful to the person. My initial reaction to the story was that at 14 days postpartum, I would be a little corncerned about the mom, because she is likely still bleeding, getting breastfeeding established, is dealing with hormones, etc.


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## Quinn'sMommy (Jan 2, 2005)

I just want to say, as a newish member of MDC I like reading post like this. I like the way you stand up for mothers, even the ones you don't know or agree with. I like that you don't let people pass judgement without calling them on it. Overall I find the women here to be very respectful and kind. This really is a very good comunity.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jen123*
"do you have any children ?". The woman replied "yes. a two week old, our first. ". I looked around. "where is he?". The woman said "with an aunt for the night". WHAT???







I bit my tongue SO hard. Another woman sensed my growing anger .... yet there I stood with my mouth hanging open

If this ain't open judgement, I don't know what is.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
A thread about how unthinkable it is that a mom of a 2 week old would leave the baby with her sister for a few hours while she went to a bible study is insulting to a large chunk of the MDC community.
How does it help you be a better mom to talk about how you would never, ever do such a horrible thing?
This is not one of those subjects that's an AP no-brainer.
This is a subject that is in the grey zone.
You should be able to consider yourself an AP parent and leave your 2 week old with your sister for a few hours without fearing that other AP moms will see you, and be visibly disgusted by your actions, gritting their teeth, so that a non-AP mom has to step in and "redirect" the conversation away from your mortal AP sin.










I should add that I have never left ds with anyone but dh and only for like 3 hours max, only a few times. And I really can't understand a mother who would leave a young child for any extended period of time. But, we need to set an example people will follow. If we are going to continue to be solely judgemental in our appraoch to win converts to a better way of parenting, than we will ultimately lose. We will lose many people who could've been gently directed and taught, or simply needed a good example to follow.


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

"But, no, I actively work to train myself not to judge the parenting practices of the loving well-meaning moms I see at at the malls and the bagle shop. I do sometimes immediately think "hold your baby" or "loose the mouthplug," but I know that thinking these things is wrong and that good mothering/happy..."

Mamawannabe--oh, you are talking about me when you talk about the mall (though I rarely go).
My ds has a pacifier in public (he is 1) only because if he doesn't have one he SCREAMS at the top of his lungs, just to hear his own voice echo in a big space like a mall. He LOVES doing this and will laugh with delight, but I get the UGLIEST stares from people who don't like the noise.
You'd never know I'm a LLL leader, and didn't introduce the paci to him until he was six months old--and of course both of mine are still nursing.

I even use a stroller from time to time when my back is bothering me and having two to chase isn't easy.







:


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GranoLLLy-girl*
"But, no, I actively work to train myself not to judge the parenting practices of the loving well-meaning moms I see at at the malls and the bagle shop. I do sometimes immediately think "hold your baby" or "loose the mouthplug," but I know that thinking these things is wrong and that good mothering/happy..."

Mamawannabe--oh, you are talking about me when you talk about the mall (though I rarely go).
My ds has a pacifier in public (he is 1) only because if he doesn't have one he SCREAMS at the top of his lungs, just to hear his own voice echo in a big space like a mall. He LOVES doing this and will laugh with delight, but I get the UGLIEST stares from people who don't like the noise.
You'd never know I'm a LLL leader, and didn't introduce the paci to him until he was six months old--and of course both of mine are still nursing.

I even use a stroller from time to time when my back is bothering me and having two to chase isn't easy.







:

No I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about how mothering.com has helped me and is helping me NOT to make stupid wrong useless judgements against other mothers based parenting practices and choices that, ultimatly, have little bearing on good mothering or happy children (such as buckets and strollers and pacifiers and whether or not you leave your newborn with an Aunt for the night). Did you read my post?


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

What I don't understand is why people bother saying things like, "I don't understand how so-and-so could do that." So what? Why do you have to understand? What's your point? That statement is laden with judgement. If you don't care whether or not someone could understand how you could breastfeed a toddler or co-sleep with three kids, why should someone else care whether or not you understand if they leave their infant with a trusted friend or family member?

I think it is important to remeber, too, that the conservative Christian groups that advocate spanking five-month-old babies and the Ezzo followers believe that they've found the "better" way of parenting, too. Getting all sanctimonious about it turns people off.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
What I don't understand is why people bother saying things like, "I don't understand how so-and-so could do that." So what? Why do you have to understand? What's your point?

you're awesome


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

Mamawanabe--I did read your post.
I said that tongue-in-cheek.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leilalu*
But, we need to set an example people will follow. If we are going to continue to be solely judgemental in our appraoch to win converts to a better way of parenting, than we will ultimately lose. We will lose many people who could've been gently directed and taught, or simply needed a good example to follow.

No, I really don't think we need to set an example that people will follow. Because as this thread (and thousands of others like it) have shown, there is no one best way to do things, and saying that we need to set examples for others is just another way of saying that "our" way of doing things is the right way.

It simply isn't true, and it's not productive to filet other people who do things differently than you do.

Namaste!


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GranoLLLy-girl*
Mamawanabe--I did read your post.
I said that tongue-in-cheek.

we need a toung in cheek emoticon


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## susannella (Dec 1, 2004)

farmer mama said:


> Yes, we do all need to support each other as mothers and as women, but I think (hope?) within that support there is room for not supporting a practice.
> 
> I like this concept. If I say, "I don't support leaving a child at 2 weeks" it does not carry a tone of judgment or righteousness. The OP sounded very righteous, and so did many other posters' comments about her, in my opinion.
> I have struggled with the language and my feelings around some parenting practices, and this really works for me. Thanks, farmer mama, for putting things into perspective.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
...saying that we need to set examples for others is just another way of saying that "our" way of doing things is the right way....

but our way of doing things IS the right way...


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Klothos. LOL. I am against personal attacks, but judgemental thoughts or a vent here about something non ap~I personally think that is one of the necessary functions of a place where we come together over a shared interest. Some people are more sensitive than others to situations that illustrate how un attached the world can be. It sounds like the OP channelled her judgemental thoughts into a constructive offer for the woman to bring her baby in the future if she felt like it. I think it's fine that she had the judgemental thoughts, because she ultimately handled them in a positive way. I think she vented in the appropriate place~here, and I support her use of the forum for that purpose.

In the tao sense, we should practice non judgement. But this isn't a taoist forum, so there is no reason to expect non judgement here.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
It sounds like the OP channelled her judgemental thoughts into a constructive offer for the woman to bring her baby in the future if she felt like it.

that would be great -- if she actually had. but from the op it sounds like she just fumed while the other ladies stepped up.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
In the tao sense, we should practice non judgement. But this isn't a taoist forum, so there is no reason to expect non judgement here.

:LOL


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

You know what is so funny about this thread? I find myself reading posts from _both sides of the argument_ and nodding and cheering with either of them, lol. I mean really, there have been so many fine posts on both aspects of this issue that it's hard for me to get too worked up about it.

But maybe that's just because I've been around here for a while now and seen many of these threads. As someone else said, I've grown up a bit here too. I used to be pretty judgemental in my head, though I'm far too non-confrontational to ever make that apparent, but I've matured alot thanks to the wisdom of others around here.

Someone mentioned how hearing a mother talking about going off on camping trips without her babies made her feel uncomfortable because she just "couldn't relate". Well really, that is what I have figured out about my reactions. It's not so much that I judge other mothers, but just that some mothers have lifestyles that I totally cannot relate to. And that is just human nature.

The reality of my life choices are that DH and I don't get to go to movies or nice restaurants together right now. I cannot be without my baby for more than an hour or so, and never far, so my only breaks come when DH takes the kids for a walk 'round the hood. I don't own any bottles, we cosleep, so my life is vastly different from someone who makes other choices. I forget sometimes that others have a different reality than I do. Maybe the OP did too. Not that we'll ever find out b/c I think we scared her away.







But my point is, that just being surprised or taken aback by someone revealing that they did something that isn't a reality for you, isn't necessarily "judgemental".


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I hear you piglet about reading and nodding to both sides of the argument. There have been lots of good posts both ways.

Here in MDC land I find myself judging the people who judge mamas (unless the parenting lapse is pretty major). But in real life today a mama I know was saying her 9 mos old had weaned, and she was so devastated. And when I nursed my toddler she said with a sigh, "lucky baby, lucky mama."

And outwardly I nodded supportively, but inwardly I was thinking: OH PUHLEEZE! I was around last summer to see her partner feeding their then eight week old a bottle of formula, and when I asked her about it she said they are doing both bf and formula. What did you expect? All this sighing and devastation. 9 mos olds do not wean themselves! You set it up by doing the formula thing. Geez! And a freaking lesbian no less. You should know better than to just trust the mainstream powers that be and then act like you don't know any better! Plus wtf was with the "lucky baby lucky mama" comment. Do you not see my scratched up bruised abused titties????

:LOL So maybe I just like to judge?


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:

But my point is, that just being surprised or taken aback by someone revealing that they did something that isn't a reality for you, isn't necessarily "judgemental".
ITA.
But what is judgemental?
Is being so "irritaited" that others have to step in to keep some mom's feelings being hurt by you when you spew anger at her through non-verbal communication a sign of being judgemental?
IMO, it becomes judgemental when it becomes mean or condecending...


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
Is being so "irritaited" that others have to step in to keep some mom's feelings being hurt by you when you spew anger at her through non-verbal communication a sign of being judgemental?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

"Is being so "irritaited" that others have to step in to keep some mom's feelings being hurt by you when you spew anger at her through non-verbal communication a sign of being judgemental?
IMO, it becomes judgemental when it becomes mean or condecending..."

Judging something means that you evaluate it. It doesn't have to be mean or condescending.

Getting angry means getting angry.

I am not so shockable now, but there was definitely a period of many years where saying to me "nursing is gross" or "We are taking a cruise without the baby" would have garnered a shocked "Really??" and possibly some encouragement to rethink the issue. However I am not a person who feels anger easily, so I cannot relate to that. But yes you could have shocked me, and that would have no doubt been based on a pre conscious judgement.

But if the OP was half as angry as has been implied, I still think she handled it well.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
but our way of doing things IS the right way...









What, exactly, is OUR way of doing things? Do you and I do things exactly the same? I'd venture to guess that we don't. Does that mean that one of us is right and one of us is wrong? Absolutely not. It means simply that we are different people and have children with different personalities and there is no one set of actions and beliefs that serves all people at all times. It's that dogmatic "You have to do things this way or you're doing it wrong and hurting your child" that I really can't stand.

People can do things in ways that outwardly look quite different but they can both still be "right" in how they are parenting their children.

MDC has thousands of members and I'm sure each member has her (or his) own unique way of parenting. I'm sure some "do" more AP-ascribed actions than others. But to say that those who do are somehow more "right" than others is both rude and wrong.

Quote:

9 mos olds do not wean themselves!
Absolutely untrue. My good friend's 9 month old weaned herself. She didn't want to nurse anymore, and so she didn't. This was not a nursing strike, she just weaned herself. She knew the baby sign for "all done," and every time her mother offered her the breast, she signed "all done." She consented to drink breast milk from a bottle, but she did NOT want to nurse anymore, and she made that very clear.

Namaste!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*

Absolutely untrue. My good friend's 9 month old weaned herself. She didn't want to nurse anymore, and so she didn't. This was not a nursing strike, she just weaned herself. She knew the baby sign for "all done," and every time her mother offered her the breast, she signed "all done." She consented to drink breast milk from a bottle, but she did NOT want to nurse anymore, and she made that very clear.

Namaste!

Well, yes, if you are offering a bottle, it is pretty common knowledge in AP circles that this can lead to early weaning - less effort to suck and all that. But naturally speaking, if children are not fed from artificial sources, 9 mos olds do not wean themselves. This would be counter to the drive to survive, as babies need milk. Anyway, this is not really the point.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

She wasn't being fed a bottle until TWO WEEKS after she started refusing to nurse. They started giving her a bottle BECAUSE she wasn't nursing, not the other way around.

Namaste!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
She wasn't being fed a bottle until TWO WEEKS after she started refusing to nurse. They started giving her a bottle BECAUSE she wasn't nursing, not the other way around.

Namaste!

It doesn't make any sense to me that a baby would simply stop nursing at nine months.







I can't vouch for your experience coz I wasn't there, but to be honest I don't believe it was as simple as you're portraying. Not the point however.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
It doesn't make any sense to me that a baby would simply stop nursing at nine months.







I can't vouch for your experience coz I wasn't there, but to be honest I don't believe it was as simple as you're portraying. Not the point however.

It doesn't really matter whether it makes sense to you, and that absolutely is the point. As has been pointed out several times in this thread, whether or not someone "understands" someone else's experience is not important. Just because you don't understand something, just because it doesn't line up with your experience or ideas of how things "should" be, doesn't mean that the thing you don't understand is wrong. Also, the point I was trying to make is that saying something "never" happens or "always" happens or is "always" wrong or "always" works or "never" should be done or "always" should be done is completely and totally false and serves only to alienate others whose experiences don't line up with what we have already decided is the way things should be.

My own daughter, btw, self-weaned at 20 months by telling me, "NO! Daddy!" when I sat down to nurse her one night. Daddy rocked her to sleep and she never nursed again, and I have met plenty of people who tell me that a 20-month-old would NEVER wean herself or wean herself that abruptly and that I MUST have done something to force her weaning, which I didn't.

Namaste!


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
but our way of doing things IS the right way...









"our way"? We can't seem to agree on much, why do you think we have a "way"?

Besides, one way doesn't work for everyone. Different strokes for different folks.


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## nycapmom (Jan 30, 2005)

nak

I'm sorry but this "different strokes for different folks" attitude really trivializes the fact that babies have NEEDS and those NEEDS should come first. This isn't like a McD vs. BBK or Coke vs. Pepsi choice, ya know?

I must say that I am shocked and saddened by this thread. I guess I was living in a MDC dream ...


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Well nycapmom, I think this thread is about balancing a) the way "we" feel children ought to be parented, and b) examining how valid it is to spend our energy judging other parents. I know for myself I struggle between my parenting philosophy and my desire to refrain from judging particularly mothers in a society that is waaaay too heavy on the mother-blaming as it is.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nycapmom*

I'm sorry but this "different strokes for different folks" attitude really trivializes the fact that babies have NEEDS and those NEEDS should come first.

I think that what people are trying to say is that there is more than one (good) way to meet a baby's needs, not that baby's needs shouldn't matter.

Namaste!


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

So, if not different strokes for different folks, then what? We all should march in an AP lockstep, because all families are the same?

Hardly.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

So..is "venting" wrong?

When a mama has spent a day IRL, in a place where her parenting style is not just the minority, but openly scorned, is it too much to imagine that some days she just wants to let loose in a place where _her_ choices are considered the norm?

And, if a mama such as that comes here and posts something to the effect of the OP....would it not be prudent to "educate" her GENTLY on how maybe it's not what it seems, that some women have real struggles behind their bottles of formula, or their all-night babysitters?

Seems to me that the lambasting of the OP, and anybody who has ever felt the need to vent, is as counterproductive as the attitude those people are lambasting against. Why is it more important to be supportive and gentle and understanding to the mama of the 2 week old than it is to be the same to one of our very own members? Why is she more deserving of support than the OP, who is presumably here to learn something?

The women who have helped me so much to be less "judgemental" are the ones who have gently, graciously, and kindly pointed out to me the errors in my thinking, the inherent assumptions I didn't realize I was making, and shared stories with me that made me realize "it's not always what you think". I sure didn't come to learn this wisdom by being told I'm a judgemental cow, that MDC has a bad reputation out there in internet land (and, btw, I could SO care less what other parenting boards think of us - there's a good reason why I'm here and not there), and that the problem with attachment parenting is all the "holier than thou" threads that pop up here.

Honestly, I'm tired of having to defend the belief that babies are designed to be with their mothers without listening to defensive rants from anyone who's ever had a babysitter, or working mothers, or formula-feeding mothers. If I can't discuss that one biological fact without having to write paragraphs on how this just represents a template upon which many different situations are founded, and that it nowhere implies that anybody who isn't with their babies 24/7 is somehow a failure as a mother, then really how useful a place does this become?

And can someone please enlighten me as to how the assumption "overnight = formula" is somehow offensive? I'm talking from a simply logistical viewpoint here. I really don't know how a 10 - 12 hour separation from a 14 day old baby is even possible if you are BFing. The only circumstances I know of where a 2 week old is already using bottles and the mother has had a chance to build up a whole night's worth of milk while still pumping for the infant's present feedings are pretty darn unusual and not ones where the mother is inclined to be apart from her baby.

(btw, dharma, nice posts. also you, heartmama







)


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:

Seems to me that the lambasting of the OP, and anybody who has ever felt the need to vent, is as counterproductive as the attitude those people are lambasting against. Why is it more important to be supportive and gentle and understanding to the mama of the 2 week old than it is to be the same to one of our very own members? Why is she more deserving of support than the OP, who is presumably here to learn something?
Nail...head. Nicely put!!!









The OP vented about something, and there are now HOW many pages villifing her for that?? The kind, gentle, "judgmental???? me?? NEVER!!!" mamas have shredded her for PAGES now.

Poor horse, it continues to be beaten and beaten....it was dead by page two.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*

So..is "venting" wrong?

[lots snipped]

Honestly, I'm tired of having to defend the belief that babies are designed to be with their mothers without listening to defensive rants from anyone who's ever had a babysitter, or working mothers, or formula-feeding mothers. If I can't discuss that one biological fact without having to write paragraphs on how this just represents a template upon which many different situations are founded, and that it nowhere implies that anybody who isn't with their babies 24/7 is somehow a failure as a mother, then really how useful a place does this become?

I don't believe that venting is wrong and that means that everyone gets to vent. If the OP gets to vent, then so do the people that respond to her. And I have seen nothing inappropriate in that venting. And I figure that if you post something publicly, you ought to expect that people will respond, and you ought to expect that not everyone will agree with you. People have a right to disagree with other people, even if they don't do it in the precise way that you prefer. People post in different ways and with different styles. I personally prefer to focus on the content rather than the process of what people say.

And I believe that the reason behind your fatigue in defending your belief is adequately illustrated in your own words. You present something as "biological fact" and all the implicit "facts" that go along with it, and it just simply ISN'T fact, biological or otherwise. There is certainly biological evidence to support that fact, but the fact is that this is your belief, not the ultimate truth. So if you present something as ultimate truth, you should legitimately expect to have people be defensive in response-- not necessarily because they take it personally or hear it as a critique of their mothering (I do not, btw), but because some people actually don't believe that to be true.

I don't believe there is nor should there be a litmus test for posting here. I also believe there is a wide spectrum of parenting behaviors that fall under the wide umbrella of "attachment parenting." Even if we disagree about some of the facts related to families and caring for children, I suspect that we can all learn something from each other. Except that I'm simply not interesting in learning from people who insist they hold the keys to the ultimate truth, because I'm just too old, educated, and cantankerous to believe that to be true.

Karla


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

This is one of those threads where i am agreeing with both sides...the need to vent, those that agree with that vent, and others who disagree.

I just feel that in threads like these, the need to vent (and who doesnt need that once in a while, right?) is a veil for chest thumping.....I havent left my kids in 27 years! I havent had sex with my husband in a millenium because i co-slept/bf/ap, whatever....and anyone that does it differently, like myself who left my newborns so i could run an errand or grocery shop, are villified as less than attached. That me leaving my kids with my husband, who is their father for Gods sake, or my mother, who is their grandmother, or another trusted family member makes me a slacker in the AP realm, and less than true to the cause, and basically not a real enough, good enough, attached enough parent.

And i agree with LT, if you are gonna vent, go ahead, but you just might feel the wrath of those who disagree (even if they are the poster child for "AP").

What i alaways find so interesting is the history and the life led by some of the more vocal critics on this thread and others, how far from perfect they are, and yet they expect it from others.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Well I for one have no problem saying that some issues, like spanking and CIO, are not acceptable treatment for any child, they do harm, and avoiding them is in every child's best interest.

Obviously some in this thread have no such qualms~ any choice a parent makes is fine.

But I don't think lack of emotion or passion is necessary to an educational conversation. Arguing for a posture of perceived indifference in the face of situations seen as hurtful isn't likely to win over any converts either. People who feel strongly on these issues aren't going to be affected by yet another person chiming in with the mainstream, saying "It doesn't matter, it doesn't make a difference". For some it makes all the difference.

I'm not going to insist that you care more~but I certainly wouldn't give you another thought if you told me to care less! And I hope the OP stands up for what she posted, because I think she had a right to those feelings, and certainly had the right to share them unapologetically.

The only peace is to accept that there will be emotions, feelings, judgements, and that this will come up again and again. As long as ap is marginalized those feelings are not going to disappear.

My personal opinion is that discouraging those with strong feelings on ap issues does far more harm than good to the spirit of attachment parenting.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

There are several very valid points that have been lost in the discussion.

1. The OP didn't just come here to vent; her anger was tangible enough that other mothers in the Bible study could feel it and acted to intervene.

2. New mothers are just that: *new* mothers. My first pregnancy and early life as a new mom was largely directed by that wonderful "What to Expect" book and freely critiqued by older women who hadn't bf and didn't believe in co-sleeping and swore that I would spoil my dd. For a long time, I was a "closet" APer until I built up enough confidence to trust my instincts.

3. We are a child-unfriendly society. The mom probably had no idea what to expect from the group.

4. We still have no clear definition of what she meant by "for the night". Many people use that phrase to mean for the evening.

5. As someone else pointed out, the baby was being cared for by a relative. I, too, would not allow a stranger to babysit my infant nor would I let roomful of women pass him around. That's just weird to me.

Me, I couldn't have left my 2-week-old. We would probably still be cuddling in bed, enjoying those early days. To me, that's a precious time. But, that's me. Maybe this mom had a desperate need for the bible study and handled it the best way she knew how at the time. As a PP said, this was a _Bible_ study and Jesus did have a few very pointed words about our right to judge others.

Missy


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## soccerchic21 (Jan 6, 2004)

Quote:

ETA: I do not agree with the mom's choice for the baby but I do think it's a little unfair to jump to conclusions about anything she does, kwim?
I agree. She could have DESPERATELY needed time away. She could have had PPD terribly and what if that night saved her?

Also maybe she isn't breastfeeding. Maybe she was sexually abused and has issues with breastfeeding and tried to no avail.

Maybe she is just a new mom and had no clue the babe could go with her. Maybe the very healthy breastfed baby will be at the next meeting.

I know when I was a new mom I would have probably left DD with my mom...actually we did when we went to her baptismal class. It wasn't overnight but for about 2 hours. Looking back I should have taken her but what did I know back then. I also went to a wedding when DD was 8 weeks old. I left DD with my mom because no children were allowed. My DH and I were gone for at least 5 hours but I thought it was ok. My mom said it would be. What did I know...my mom raised me fine. Thankfully for my milk supply it all felt wrong after a while and I found AP parenting through other people.

I think for new mothers especially we need to just remember that they are new. Maybe they have never taken care of a baby before...as was my case. Sometimes for some people mothering doesn't come naturally and they need to learn and the best help comes from supportive, non-judgemental, support.

In just a little support of the OP sometimes it is hard to not judge for that moment when AP ideals are so important to you. We all need to remember that not all AP is right for all people.

The best advice I give expecting and new mothers now is "Just always remember to do what you think is right for you, your baby and your family. You are going to get a lot of different advice from a lot of different people. What worked for Susie's five kids down the street might not work for you and that is ok."

Maybe the woman was like me and comes from a very mainstream family and has no clue about AP parenting. She just needs someone to tell her about it. Maybe the OP could bring up to the gal about a great site that she knows of (mothering). Or bring some old issues.

Ok enough rambling from me.


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## nycapmom (Jan 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Well I for one have no problem saying that some issues, like spanking and CIO, are not acceptable treatment for any child, they do harm, and avoiding them is in every child's best interest.

Obviously some in this thread have no such qualms~ any choice a parent makes is fine.

But I don't think lack of emotion or passion is necessary to an educational conversation. Arguing for a posture of perceived indifference in the face of situations seen as hurtful isn't likely to win over any converts either. People who feel strongly on these issues aren't going to be affected by yet another person chiming in with the mainstream, saying "It doesn't matter, it doesn't make a difference". For some it makes all the difference.

I'm not going to insist that you care more~but I certainly wouldn't give you another thought if you told me to care less! And I hope the OP stands up for what she posted, because I think she had a right to those feelings, and certainly had the right to share them unapologetically.

The only peace is to accept that there will be emotions, feelings, judgements, and that this will come up again and again. As long as ap is marginalized those feelings are not going to disappear.

My personal opinion is that discouraging those with strong feelings on ap issues does far more harm than good to the spirit of attachment parenting.

Can I just say heartmama you are AWESOME!!


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## nycapmom (Jan 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soccerchic21*
I agree. She could have DESPERATELY needed time away. She could have had PPD terribly and what if that night saved her?


You are absolutely right but couldn't that also be the case with the mom in the grocery store walloping her kid? Maybe she just momentarily lost it? Maybe she skipped her meds that day? Maybe she just lost it but will cry later about it? We all have our weak moments right? I do tend to give people in general, the benefit of the doubt (DH says I am naive







) but I also tend to get very sad - and sometimes angry - when I hear about babies left to cry until they throw up in their crib (but the mom could be utterly exhausted, right?) or babies formula fed because mom fears sagging breasts (misinformation but even if it were true...) or taking a week long vacation away from a newborn. Call me judgemental. Like a PP said, judging means evaluating and I have decided that I do not think ANY child should be hit or left to scream or left for 2wks as a newborn. Some may disagree, yes, but I thought most of us here at MDC were on the same page.

The bottom line is yes, we should stop and think every time we see something happen to a child that we think is *wrong* (yep I do think certain things are wrong for *any* child not just mine) that maybe there could be all kinds of extenuating circumstance BUT the fact is that I still have a gut reaction that is my heart breaking for that baby/child.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I do not think our harsh judgement of non AP mamas is about AP being marginalized. I think a lot of it is about this culture's tendency to motherblame - to harshly critique mothers for everything and not offer support.

I am very pro AP. I am also anti mother blaming (altho I do it, and it is done to me). And in my own life I am trying to find a balance between both things.


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## nycapmom (Jan 30, 2005)

nak

Why does it have to be about mother blaming? Why can't it be about advocating for babies/children?


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Well I for one have no problem saying that some issues, like spanking and CIO, are not acceptable treatment for any child, they do harm, and avoiding them is in every child's best interest.

Obviously some in this thread have no such qualms~ any choice a parent makes is fine.

Are you sure you're posting in the right thread? Because I could have sworn that people were actually responding to the issue here, which revolved around a mother leaving a 2 week old baby for some undetermined amount of time. And what people might say related to that says NOTHING about these other issues. Of course, if you just want to just slam people who disagree with you, this is a fine way to do it. Although-- I can't actually tell who the "you" is in your posts because your response seems to be completely out of context. I didn't take it personally, but I find your post very offensive.

This is an "attack" tactic -- if you can't respond to the actual issues with an argument or logic, just start attacking people and call them proponents of spanking or whatever. If I knew what "side" you were on, I'd make sure I was on the other.

Whatever. I think it's time for me to stop reading this thread, it is ludicrous that I fee the need to respond to junk like this.

Karla


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

You are absolutely right but couldn't that also be the case with the mom in the grocery store walloping her kid?...Like a PP said, judging means evaluating and I have decided that I do not think ANY child should be hit or left to scream or left for 2wks as a newborn.
But, please, this is a _new_ mom who left her baby for a few hours to attend a bible study. She didn't wallop her newborn. She doesn't--as far as we know--use CIO. She didn't take off for two weeks. For all we know, she went home that night and co-slept, but didn't happen to mention that because we all know what sort of response that tends to elicit from most people. She's probably been pounded with more unsolicited advice than she can handle right now; her head is probably spinning, between a lack of sleep, hormones, the fears of being a new mother--and the judgments being piled on her poor overwhelmed head because, of course, everyone else knows better.

Missy


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nycapmom*
We all have our weak moments right?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *nycapmom*
The bottom line is yes, we should stop and think every time we see something happen to a child that we think is *wrong* (yep I do think certain things are wrong for *any* child not just mine) that maybe there could be all kinds of extenuating circumstance BUT the fact is that I still have a gut reaction that is my heart breaking for that baby/child.

you made more sense in the first quote. life isn't perfect. we cannot be perfect mothers. sorry your heart breaks sometimes . I know that feeling because my heart breaks sometimes too. but you can't demand your idea of perfection from everyone else around you.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

lifetapestry~I am responding to the general issue of criticism towards those who vent. That is the most interesting issue to me in this thread, whether or not it is for you.

The point isn't that the woman in the OP is or is not comparable to CIO or spanking. The point is that strong feelings and the need to vent should be expected when you post in a forum for a marginalized lifestyle.

This isn't a christian forum, or taoist forum. Personally I find I am happier when I practice non judgement. But I don't impose or expect that value here.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I do not think our harsh judgement of non AP mamas is about AP being marginalized. I think a lot of it is about this culture's tendency to motherblame - to harshly critique mothers for everything and not offer support.

I am very pro AP. I am also anti mother blaming (altho I do it, and it is done to me). And in my own life I am trying to find a balance between both things.

true.

And this is going to be flamed, I'm sure (its OK, I can take it). But why exactly do we care so much about whether newborns are not left overnight thier mothers or whether mothers choose to ff so as not change thier breasts? Why exactly do I care how other people are raising their kids when I know that happy childhoods and happy adults emerge, the end goal right, emerge from so many differnt kinds of parenting practices. We do have a stake in making sure vulnerable members of our society are not abused - but a night at an aunt's as an infant or forumla-feeding because mom has a large physchological stake in her breasts does not sound abuse, even in its loosest definition.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

"But why exactly do we care so much about whether newborns are not left overnight thier mothers or whether mothers choose to ff so as not change thier breasts?"

You have a right to indifference, but it isn't likely to persuade or expand on a discussion begun by someone who does have strong feelings about an issue.

People have many reasons why they care. I wouldn't presume to lump them all together either.

Why do you care whether people care? That may answer your own question.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
"But why exactly do we care so much about whether newborns are not left overnight thier mothers or whether mothers choose to ff so as not change thier breasts?"

You have a right to indifference, but it isn't likely to persuade or expand on a discussion begun by someone who does have strong feelings about an issue.

People have many reasons why they care. I wouldn't presume to lump them all together either.

Would not characterize it as "indifference." I would characterize it "understanding" - understanding that different choices can lead to the same end goal - happy children.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

When it isn't clear to someone that the child is happy, that is often the cause for a vent.

What is happiness?

People who spank and demand rigid discipline will insist it makes their child happier, and free's them from guilt over their actions by having a "punishment" to wash away their sins.

To them that is happiness.

To me that would not be happiness.

So there is a forum for people who think that is happy and right to go talk, and there is a forum for people who do not think that is happy and right to come talk.

You can decide what happiness looks like to you, and find like minded people to share that with.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
When it isn't clear to someone that the child is happy, that is often the cause for a vent.

What is happiness?

People who spank and demand rigid discipline will insist it makes their child happier, and free's them from guilt over their actions by having a "punishment" to wash away their sins.

To them that is happiness.

To me that would not be happiness.

So there is a forum for people who think that is happy and right to go talk, and there is a forum for people who do not think that is happy and right to come talk.

You can decide what happiness looks like to you, and find like minded people to share that with.

Again, this is a thread about a mom who left her newborn with an aunt. We can create a strawman (saying that judging this mama is wrong is just like saying judging a mom who spanks is wrong), but not sure how pertinent it would be.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I think a lot of it is about this culture's tendency to motherblame - to harshly critique mothers for everything and not offer support.

I think it is about WOMEN's tendency to harshly critique each other. It's like we just can't wait to tear each other down. I don't know why that is, but it sure seems to be true.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I think there is a lot of conflict at MDC between those who have a very wide definition of what consititutes poor parenting (so wide that the majority of the parents in this country fall into it) and those who have a very wide definition of what constitutes good parenting (again, so wide that the majority of parents in this country fall into it).

There is also conflict between those who see a certain action as "a choice _I_ wouldn't make" and those who see that action as "a choice that _shouldn't_ be made."

Yes, the people who come to MDC tend to have a lot of common ground when it comes to theory. In actual practice, those theories are implemented in a wide variety of ways, and, once again, that doesn't make any one parent more right than another.

Namaste!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

:



































: :yawning:


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

*gingerly sticking my toe into the fray*

I am feel incredibly blessed that I found MDC BEFORE ttc. If I hadn't, I feel certain I would have 1) gotten every test in the book when pregnant, under the exclusive care of an OB 2) expected to get any and all interventions during labor and maybe wanted a voluntary c-section 3) vaxed and circed w/o even questioning those decisions 4) attempted to breastfeed, certainly, but not with the dogged determination that I plan to approach it now Etc.

My point is: not everyone has the benefit of researching these things before having a child. In an ideal world, this would not be the case. But the mainsteam IS mainstream--it is what most people know. More than that, most people don't even know that there is more to know--i.e., that research into these things is actually necessary. I think many people truly believe they are doing the best for their children, even when they make choices that many of us wouldn't agree with.

That said, I respect the OPs right to vent (and I notice we haven't seen hide or tail of her since that original post, which suggests to me that she's been scared off), if not her apparently public distaste for the mother at her group. To me the helpful response would have been to invite the mother to bring her baby to the next group and to point out that she had a fantastic resource she could draw on if she felt overwhelmed or confused by her new role--a room full of experienced parents. That's just my opinion.

My sister has made many parenting choices that I personally disagree with. On the other hand, I know she is a loving mother who really feels like she is doing the best she can for her dd, and I expect her to have a wonderful relationship with her dd. So, yes, privately I might judge her a little--I can't help the way I feel. But I would never make her feel guilty about her choices (she knows that sometimes her choices are not ideal, but the best of several imperfect options) or accuse her of being a bad mom. I am not in her shoes--I don't know what it's like to negotiate her particular set of responsibilities and problems. If I felt I had something to offer that might help her, I would volunteer information--if I had known more about bf when her dd was weaned, for instance. But I don't think angry judging of anyone--the OP, the mother at her group, the posters who objected to the original post, my sister--is particularly helpful.


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

I agree, you really can't judge a person unless you know all the facts. And then there is that part about not judging others anyway...

I would bring my newborn along, but maybe she had her own good reasons for not doing so. Maybe she didn't want to expose him to germs. Maybe she really needed a break. Maybe she totally trusts her aunt and that is the norm in her family, as another PP said. Maybe she had PPD and just felt she had to get away. Maybe...there are lots of maybes...

I left my 4 week old son with my mother for the afternoon while I drove to a doctor's appt. that was an hour away. I felt more comfortable leaving him in my mom's capable hands than driving through city and highway traffic with a newborn. I had PPD and just felt like, I can't handle it. What if I get into an accident? What if my baby cries and cries and I can't comfort him? Etc. (Since I had been so sleep-deprived that I actually backed into my mother's car when I left the driveway that day, I think I was right to leave him with her!)

Now I look back and laugh, and think how silly I was. How could I have felt so inadequate and scared? But we are all at different places post-partum. We are not all prepared to be perfect mothers in the same way at the same time.

So I concur with the others who say, "Judge not..."


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## soccerchic21 (Jan 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nycapmom*
You are absolutely right but couldn't that also be the case with the mom in the grocery store walloping her kid? Maybe she just momentarily lost it? Maybe she skipped her meds that day? Maybe she just lost it but will cry later about it? We all have our weak moments right?

I am sorry I personally cannot group this particuar mother with a woman who hits her child in the grocery store. IMO leaving your child with a relative and spanking are two separate issues. We need to remember that we don't know her aunt....what if her aunt is a breastfeeding mother and breastfed that baby while the woman was away? Maybe she was too embarrased to say that because not too many people in the mainstream world wet nurse.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
No, I really don't think we need to set an example that people will follow. Because as this thread (and thousands of others like it) have shown, there is no one best way to do things, and saying that we need to set examples for others is just another way of saying that "our" way of doing things is the right way.

It simply isn't true, and it's not productive to filet other people who do things differently than you do.

Namaste!

Well, if our way isn't right than what the heck are any of us doing here?We obviously beleive it is the right way. I think in anything there is always truth, gray area, and things that don't really count either way. I think that this board has grasped alot of truth on serious parenting issues.
That said, there is always choice. People can choose to live however they want. Free will. We all have a right to it. But there are always consequences and if I can help someone to avoid negative consequences in their life and show them a better way-then I want to do that. If our only goal as NFL people is to watch our own backs than that is a very shallow goal.
And I am not nessecarily saying all the ways I do things are the "right way", but I do know a few things. And I don't want to fillet anybody.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

"Again, this is a thread about a mom who left her newborn with an aunt. We can create a strawman (saying that judging this mama is wrong is just like saying judging a mom who spanks is wrong), but not sure how pertinent it would be."

I think this thread is about more than the actions of the mother of the newborn. I think this thread has evolved into a discussion about the OP's reaction to that mother, and also, whether the OP will get support when she expresses that reaction here.

I think the OP was coming from a place of concern over attachment issues, and that is why she posted about this here. I support her posting here, whether or not I would have reacted the same way, because I recognize *why* she felt what she did, and I recognize why she chose to vent about it here.


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## nycapmom (Jan 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soccerchic21*
I am sorry I personally cannot group this particuar mother with a woman who hits her child in the grocery store. IMO leaving your child with a relative and spanking are two separate issues. We need to remember that we don't know her aunt....what if her aunt is a breastfeeding mother and breastfed that baby while the woman was away? Maybe she was too embarrased to say that because not too many people in the mainstream world wet nurse.

I am not equating the OPs story with spanking at all. I am responding to the posts re leaving a newborn for a 2wk vacation. Some responded that we should not judge that... it's her choice, etc.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Well nycapmom, I think this thread is about balancing a) the way "we" feel children ought to be parented, and b) examining how valid it is to spend our energy judging other parents. I know for myself I struggle between my parenting philosophy and my desire to refrain from judging particularly mothers in a society that is waaaay too heavy on the mother-blaming as it is.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama*
We read it differently.







I thought she was irritated and bit her tongue...I took the "mouth hanging open" part as figurative..I thought she was talking more about how she was feeling than *actually* staring at her aghast, mouth literally open in horror.









Well she said the other women started talking to the new woman and asking her routine type questions because they could tell she (the OP) was upset/angry. That's not doing a particularly good job of hiding it is it?


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I think there is a lot of conflict at MDC between those who have a very wide definition of what consititutes poor parenting (so wide that the majority of the parents in this country fall into it) and those who have a very wide definition of what constitutes good parenting (again, so wide that the majority of parents in this country fall into it).

There is also conflict between those who see a certain action as "a choice _I_ wouldn't make" and those who see that action as "a choice that _shouldn't_ be made."

Yes, the people who come to MDC tend to have a lot of common ground when it comes to theory. In actual practice, those theories are implemented in a wide variety of ways, and, once again, that doesn't make any one parent more right than another.

Namaste!

I think you summed up the conflict that's happening in this thread (and across MDC) very nicely.

I just want to point something out to those who think MDC is going down the tubes and becoming some "mainstream" board - when people post here for support of their NFL or AP lifestyles, I think the support at MDC is just wonderful. Lots of great ideas and support from all corners. The real conflict happens when someone posts complaining about someone else's parenting style, IMO. Not when they're posting asking for support themselves (unless they're posting asking for support in complaining about another's parenting style, LOL).

I don't think MDC is becoming any less AP or NFL - but there are many here who want it to be less judging of those who AREN'T AP and NFL.

Just my $.02.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leilalu*
Well, if our way isn't right than what the heck are any of us doing here?We obviously beleive it is the right way. I think in anything there is always truth, gray area, and things that don't really count either way. I think that this board has grasped alot of truth on serious parenting issues.
That said, there is always choice. People can choose to live however they want. Free will. We all have a right to it. But there are always consequences and if I can help someone to avoid negative consequences in their life and show them a better way-then I want to do that. If our only goal as NFL people is to watch our own backs than that is a very shallow goal.
And I am not nessecarily saying all the ways I do things are the "right way", but I do know a few things. And I don't want to fillet anybody.

I don't think AP (defined as a set or practices) is the right way for all families. It is right for me tempermentally, and I hope it fits withmy kids' personalities, but if not AP (defined as responding to your kids' needs) should help me adjust accordingly.

I was raised fairly non-ap, and I think I would have done better in an ap household. My brother, however, THRIVED in my household. My parents' parenting ideal of early independence was a good fit for him.

Re advocating AP. For me it is not about showing parents the best way to raise their kids, but about showing them ways they maybe hadn't thought of before. It might or might not not be the best way for them to go, but if they never met anyone who co-slept, than they wouldn't know the choice was there.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leilalu*
Well, if our way isn't right than what the heck are any of us doing here?We obviously beleive it is the right way.

I can't speak for anybody else, only myself, but I am here because I get good ideas for raising my kids and resolving problems from the other parents here.

You might believe this amorphous "our way" is the right way, full stop. However, I believe that the way I parent, which many would term AP, but the more hardline APers would probably shudder at, is the right way ... for me. Those two little words are very important.

I was raised in a pretty non-AP household. I grew up to be a caring wife, a loving mother, and an engaged citizen. Would I have been more caring, loving, and engaged had I grown up in an AP household? There is no way of knowing that. But my non-AP parents were good parents who raised me the right way. Their way.

Namaste!


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
A thread about how unthinkable it is that a mom of a 2 week old would leave the baby with her sister for a few hours while she went to a bible study is insulting to a large chunk of the MDC community.
How does it help you be a better mom to talk about how you would never, ever do such a horrible thing?
This is not one of those subjects that's an AP no-brainer.
This is a subject that is in the grey zone.
You should be able to consider yourself an AP parent and leave your 2 week old with your sister for a few hours without fearing that other AP moms will see you, and be visibly disgusted by your actions, gritting their teeth, so that a non-AP mom has to step in and "redirect" the conversation away from your mortal AP sin.









:

Lord I let my Dh take my DD to work to show her off for an hour or two when she was only about a week and a half old. He wanted to do it and he wanted to do it on his own. She is his daughter too and she was all nursed up and ready to go so no biggie. I went to the store for quick trips before she was 3 weeks old and left her with my mom and we even went to dinnner the night before my mom left. Horrors! And no my DD did not take bottles. She just naturally went about 3 hours between feeds and slept longer stretches in the evenings. I left her with her father for short periods of time quite a bit especially once she was on solids. I wouldn't even think of leaving her with one of her parents as "leaving her with someone." Now I've never left her overnight and I especially wouldn't do that with a newborn who was nursing but I agree with the others who pointed out maybe she didn't know the baby would be welcome or didn't want to expose her to a bunch of strangers including strange children.


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Ok...this is kind of confusing, but I'm going to try to sum up what I see this thread as being about, and why I've "sided" or whatever, the way I have.

There are 3 people who were possibly hurt in the situation described in the OP.

The first is the baby. Now, as I see it, it's questionable whether or not the baby was in some sort of distress, or whether or not this child is going to develop some sort of attachment disorder in the future as a result of the separation.

The second is the OP herself, who is (I'm assuming) suffering as a result of envisioning a distressed 2 week old.
Now, I'm not trying to minimalize the emotions of the OP, but I believe this response is a bit presumptuous. In reality, the baby might have been fine.

The third is the mom of the baby. Now, as I see it, this is the only person in the situation who was truely wronged.
I don't know if it's just me and maybe I have social anxiety disorder or something, but I get nervous as hell when I'm the "new" person in an intimate environment like a bible study. Add to that the stress of new motherhood, hormones, etc. and I'm going to go out on a limb and propose that it's quite likely she was in a sensitive state of mind.

In this instance I see an AP mom hurting the feelings of a (more than likely) "mainstream mom"...and then add to that the fact that this wrong was percieved by the other (more than likely) "mainstream moms", and the new mom had to be protected from the AP mom by the other moms...

This situation serves as an instance of anti-AP-advocacy.
If the mom in question was considering AP, do you think she now thinks more highly of it, and those who openly practice it?


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I think it is about WOMEN's tendency to harshly critique each other. It's like we just can't wait to tear each other down. I don't know why that is, but it sure seems to be true.

Yes and a big ditto to dharmasmom re issues at MDC too.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

"Judge not"

I admire non judgement, but using that maxim in judgement of the OP validates her reaction, not yours.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I can't speak for anybody else, only myself, but I am here because I get good ideas for raising my kids and resolving problems from the other parents here.

You might believe this amorphous "our way" is the right way, full stop. However, I believe that the way I parent, which many would term AP, but the more hardline APers would probably shudder at, is the right way ... for me. Those two little words are very important.

I was raised in a pretty non-AP household. I grew up to be a caring wife, a loving mother, and an engaged citizen. Would I have been more caring, loving, and engaged had I grown up in an AP household? There is no way of knowing that. But my non-AP parents were good parents who raised me the right way. Their way.

Namaste!


I think maybe you misunderstand me. I meant, the way that we all talk about on MDC. ANd it is somewhat of a "way" because we are all grouped here together for some reason. I meant a collective idea that we choose lead a more natural way of living. Being more caring toward our children, etc. I never said anything to the contrary of doing what is right in the context of your own family. I grew up in dysfunction junction, and I am great. Would I have been better if my mom didn't let me cry it out?YES. Would I have been more secure if my father didn't do who knows what with our money and spent more time with us?YES. There is always a way to redeem mistakes made and heal hurts, but I think it better to prevent them when we can.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

"I can't speak for anybody else, only myself, but I am here because I get good ideas for raising my kids and resolving problems from the other parents here."

You may not see it or believe it, but there is no doubt in my mind that the difference you enjoy at Mothering, vs. other parenting sites, is a direct result of passionate and emotional thought and opinions, outrage, shock, hurt, and a tremendous amount of dedication and honesty.

IMO Mothering mag, and to some extent the website, is not the result of parents who met mainstream thought with polite indifference.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
"I can't speak for anybody else, only myself, but I am here because I get good ideas for raising my kids and resolving problems from the other parents here."

You may not see it or believe it, but there is no doubt in my mind that the difference you enjoy at Mothering, vs. other parenting sites, is a direct result of passionate and emotional thought and opinions, outrage, shock, hurt, and a tremendous amount of dedication and honesty.

IMO Mothering mag, and to some extent the website, is not the result of parents who met mainstream thought with polite indifference.

Yes, I agree








Polite indifference will not change what is wrong in the world. And I don't beleive these mothers just looked out for their own intersts either.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
"

You may not see it or believe it, but there is no doubt in my mind that the difference you enjoy at Mothering, vs. other parenting sites, is a direct result of passionate and emotional thought and opinions, outrage, shock, hurt, and a tremendous amount of dedication and honesty.


There is no doubt in my mind that you'll find "passionate and emotional thought and opinions, outrage, shock, hurt, and a tremendous amount of dedication and honesty" apleanty on mainstream sites. You think mainstream mamas don't think about thier parenting practices passionatly and emotionally. You think they aren't outraged and shocked and hurt by what they consider mistreatment of kids? You think they don't approach childrearing with dedication and honesty?

No the difference in mdc and other sites lies elsewhere.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
IMO Mothering mag, and to some extent the website, is not the result of parents who met mainstream thought with polite indifference.

I really don't see it as polite indifference to hold the idea that people can parent in many different ways and still be good parents.

Namaste!

Ps. FWIW, I don't subscribe to Mothering magazine. I used to, but I got tired of the constant and repetitive drone of "don't vax, don't circ, don't have your baby anywhere but at home." I like MDC because I find that I am more of a like mind with the mommas here than I am at many other places. But that still doesn't make me feel that MDC is a haven of the right-thinking in a universe of the wrong-thinking.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I do think it is far easier to parent in the mainstream.

I don't enjoy the ignorance and banality of mainstream thought, or mainstream resources.

I support the voices that make MDC different than the mainstream.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

with regards to my use of the phrase "our way" ~ i meant the AP way in general. if you're not an attachment-parenting advocate, why are you here?









Leilalu (sorry if i misspelled that!) covered it:

Quote:

I meant, the way that we all talk about on MDC. ANd it is somewhat of a "way" because we are all grouped here together for some reason. I meant a collective idea that we choose lead a more natural way of living. Being more caring toward our children, etc.










there was so much stuff addressed here whilst i was away!









and a little off topic ~

Quote:

I don't subscribe to Mothering magazine. I used to, but I got tired of the constant and repetitive drone of "don't vax, don't circ, don't have your baby anywhere but at home."
if Mothering magazine doesn't continue to promote these ideals, who will? (i do take issue with the vax thing, but at least they present information for parents to chew on...) Mothering magazine is a beacon of light ~ a breath of fresh air in a world where the dominating parenting magazines all have formula adverts riddling the pages, dispersed with sposie diaper ads and photos of unstretchmarked mamas giving birth in the stranded beetle position, drugged up and having no control.... OK i'm not ranting really. just wanted to get my .02 in about that.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

"FWIW, I don't subscribe to Mothering magazine. I used to, but I got tired of the constant and repetitive drone of "don't vax, don't circ, don't have your baby anywhere but at home."










Honestly. Those militant ap'ers, you just can't get away from them. I hope they back off, they are taking over~the mag, the website, what will they conquer next? When will it stop!!

I really hope Mothering mag dials it down soon. Parent, Child, and Parenting understand that. Constantly holding to an agenda drives people away. Give the people what they want! Viva la Parents Magazine!


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

klothos if you're not an attachment-parenting advocate said:


> http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/headscratch.gif[/IMG]


I already asnswered why I am here and what I think advocating means. Here is my answer again.

I don't think AP (defined as a set or practices) is the right way for all families. It is right for me tempermentally, and I hope it fits withmy kids' personalities, but if not AP (defined as responding to your kids' needs) should help me adjust accordingly.

I was raised fairly non-ap, and I think I would have done better in an ap household. My brother, however, THRIVED in my household. My parents' parenting ideal of early independence was a good fit for him.

Re advocating AP. For me it is not about showing parents the best or right way to raise their kids, but about showing them ways they maybe hadn't thought of before. It might or might not not be the best way for them to go, but if they never met anyone who co-slept, than they wouldn't know the choice was there.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I do think it is far easier to parent in the mainstream.

I don't enjoy the ignorance and banality of mainstream thought, or mainstream resources.

I support the voices that make MDC different than the mainstream.

Well, yes I think it is harder to parent out of the mainstream (mainly because of the lack of acceptance of your parenting practices - ahhh the irony







). But I don't think it is harder to parent with AP practices than with non-AP practices. It is a hard job no matter what route you go.

On a mainstream board, I wouldn't get much support for co-sleeping (not no support, just not as much as I would want) just as a mainstreamer wouldn't get much support on MDC for putting her babe in a crib in another room (not no support, just not as much as she would want). But that doesn't mean it that it "good" for us to slam crib sleeper mamas anymore than it is "good" for them to slam "smothering.com" mamas.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I didn't say Mothering shouldn't cover those topics. But I started to feel that that's all they were covering, and since those topics no longer apply to me, I got a bit bored. There's a whole lot more that a magazine called Mothering could cover. It didn't seem to really cover N*F*L. It seemed almost exclusively baby-, not family-, focused

Namaste!


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## nycapmom (Jan 30, 2005)

Just want to quickly address the "my parents did xyz and I turned out fine" line. I hear that all the time and always say to myself "sure but I want better than *fine* for my children" I was raised with flawed parents and I am certainly not perfect by any standards but I am doing the best with what info I have and I do make it my business to get the info I don't have and to surround myself with resources. I think there is a difference between someone who does not breastfeed (just an example) because they were sexually abused and cannot tolerate any breast touch and, say, someone who is completely informed of the *dangers* (yep, I said dangers) of formula feeding but can't be bothered with breastfeeding because it is yucky, etc.

GOtta run!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I hear what you are saying, nycapmom, but once again that position presupposes that had we been raised by AP parents, we would have turned out better than we are now. There is, of course, no way to know or verify that.

I was raised by non-AP parents, and I can confidently say that I am better than "fine." If I do say so myself, I am great! And so are most of the people I know, who also were raised by non-AP parents.

I practice AP (in general) because it's what feels right to me. I have a friend who does things differently than I do because it's what feels right for her. My kids are great! Her kids are great!

I'm really having a hard time understanding why people seem to think it's not possible to do things the non-AP way and STILL raise happy kids. I'm not trying to be snarky. I really don't understand that, because it seems like such a simple concept to me.

Btw, I







for a long, long time over what nycapmom, pronounced nigh-cap-mom, meant. Was it short for nightcapmom? Did you really enjoy your martini right before bed?? Then, after seeing your name about 5 dozen times,







!

Namaste!


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nycapmom*
Just want to quickly address the "my parents did xyz and I turned out fine" line. I hear that all the time and always say to myself "sure but I want better than *fine* for my children"


I fit into that catagory (I turned out fine with mostly non-ap parents), and if every child and every parent was like me, I'd totally say that AP parenting is teh best and right way. HOWEVER my brother did more than fine, he THRIVED in my non-ap household. The way my parents pushed us (rather gently, but more decididly than was best for my temperment) towards early independence was exactly right for him. My parents parenting practices matched his temperment (in part because he shares my dad's temperment to a T). I am very different personality wise than both my parents, and their parenting practices were a bad fit for me.

About breatfeeding - there seems to me to be a difference (and tell me if you think I'm off base) between how we feel about a mom who formula feeds by choice and a mama who feeds her kids juice and soda and junk food. Both formula and junk food are less than best, but formula seems much more demonized, and I can't help but think it has something with our society wanting to control women's bodies. Does that make any sense. I'm kinda thinking outloud here. Do other people notice that they find themselves feeling less patience (in their head, of course) toward by choice ffeeders than macdonalds moms?


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

It seems like many people here are operating on a number of false assumptions. The first one being that in this online community composed of thousands of (mostly) women from all over the world there is a central "like-minded" attitude that extends beyond the very basic attachment parenting tennants. Maybe most of us share a silmilar philosophy, but it should be clear that we all put that philosophy into practice in different ways.

Second, this idea that "we" are "right". How can "we" be "right" if there isn't a standard, agreed upon definition of what "we" believe?

It baffles my mind how women who go nuts when anyone dare question any aspect of their parenting would get _angry_ at another mother for doing things differently. We aren't talking about spanking. We're not even talking about CIO. We're talking about a woman leaving her two-week-old infant for a period of time we aren't even sure about with a close female relative. This is cause for anger? Was the first post really about that mother, or was it about showcasing how wonderful the OP was because she would clearly never do something so awful? I found that first post to be so self-righteous, like she was _proud_ of herself for being so appalled.

A few thoughts, too, on being a new mother. It stinks. Everybody and their grandmother think that you _need_ their advice. Everyone else is right and you are wrong. Always. On the issue of leaving babies, there is often an enormous amount of pressure to leave your baby before you are ready. Of course, there is also pressure to never let the baby out of your sight while daddy is able to return to work and resume the weekly poker game. The amount of pressure that is put on mothers is just enormous. The best advice I ever got was to trust my instincts and do what felt right. I always tried to do that, but there was always someone there to tell me that I was wrong. I don't see how this is much different. Suppose the mother in question was torn about leaving the infant and was pressured into it. Let's suppose that she didn't feel like she needed a break. Does she really need some woman at Bible study to be a jerk to her? Do we really believe that the woman in question didn't know what was going on? Regardless of what you advocate for, you must have credibility with the people you are trying to sway. When breastfeeding advocates say that breastfed babies do not get diaper rashes, ear infections, or colic, they immediately lose credibility with people who know a breastfed baby who has had one, or all, of these things. We also lose credibility when we are rude. That person is being mean to me, I don't want to be like that person, so I don't want to have anything to do with whatever it is that person is talking about.

Finally, I know how I feel when people knock the parenting decisions that I make-- when people make faces when I'm nursing my toddler, roll their eyes when I say my 3yo still sleeps with us, or make rude comments when I stop them from giving my girl meat. Not everything works for everyone. Seriously. We're not talking about spanking here. Of course I think my way is the "right" way, or else I wouldn't be doing it. We all want the freedom to do things our own way without interference from our families or the government, yet we don't want to give others the same courtesy. When you are right all the time, it leaves little room for introspection and reflection. It closes you off to sharing expreriences with others when you have nothing left to learn. I'm not saying that we have to learn that our way is wrong, but we can at least, as individuals, open ourselves up to the possibility that there is more than one "right" way to do almost everything, including parent.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

See, I think AP/Continuum Concept is *the* right way to parent - or at least the right-est way to parent that I have ever seen. (I'm sure our children's children will leave us in the dust). I believe it is essential to nurturing the values we need to see reflected in our society and the qualities we need in people - caring, warmth, empathy, responsibility, a sense of connectedness to each other and to the earth. I don't think "mainstream" parenting simply "works for some people" - actually I think it's unnatural and detached. I think CIO and putting babies in a seperate room to sleep and formula feeding without giving bf a good attempt are WRONG. These are my judgments.

AND I feel very uneasy about harshly judging mamas (and it usually is mamas who are judged) because they fail to conform to the standards of parenting I see as *right.* I am aware that in our culture we blame, demonize and isolate women, and I do not want to participate unawares in that dynamic in the name of "promoting AP."

So for me it is absolutely a struggle. And just because I am advocating at least being conscious of our judgments of non-AP mamas, and how we are contributing to a misogynist culture, doesn't mean I am not very pro AP/CC.


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## nycapmom (Jan 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
See, I think AP/Continuum Concept is *the* right way to parent - or at least the right-est way to parent that I have ever seen. .

Not to be picky or snarky but I don't at all agree with lumping together AP and CC. That's another thread entirely, though.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

The original post reminded me of the time when my dd was a month old and we went to a wedding and reception without her. We had left her with my mom because we thought it would be better for her- less disruption for her and a healthier environment away from really loud music, smoking, drinking, and germs. It was the first time we had ever left her- my first time out without her. I went through the whole time feeling like my arm was cut off. People asked where she was and some reacted with annoyance/anger that we didn't bring her. That reaction made me feel really bad when I was already feeling uneasy inside about many things.

It is hard not to make judgements. I think making judgements is natural (positive as well as negative). I feel it is important to make an effort to reserve judgements until you understand the situation more fully though. There is usually a lot more to the story than you might see at first. I hope the OP gets over her initial anger and judgements and actually gets to know the couple and their situation with a more open mind/heart. This could be a good growth experience and maybe next time she will not flash to anger so quickly.


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## matts_mamamama (Mar 19, 2004)

I find this all to be very interesting reading, but my one question is

What happened to the OP? Has there been another small group? Has anyone in her group reached out to the "irritating" new mother to see how she is and if she needs help?


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*

It baffles my mind how women who go nuts when anyone dare question any aspect of their parenting would get _angry_ at another mother for doing things differently. We aren't talking about spanking. We're not even talking about CIO. We're talking about a woman leaving her two-week-old infant for a period of time we aren't even sure about with a close female relative. This is cause for anger? Was the first post really about that mother, or was it about showcasing how wonderful the OP was because she would clearly never do something so awful? I found that first post to be so self-righteous, like she was _proud_ of herself for being so appalled.


ITA. Especially the second half. Definitely.

Well said.


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## nycapmom (Jan 30, 2005)

The OP may have been about a first time mom leaving her newborn for a few hrs (assuming that is what "for the night" meant) but what followed were many, many posts discussing how awful it would be even to judge a mother for leaving a newborn for 2 weeks.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
See, I think AP/Continuum Concept is *the* right way to parent - or at least the right-est way to parent that I have ever seen ... These are my judgments.

If you were infallible, that would be all I'd need to know. But you aren't, and none of us are. Promoting a parenting philosphy, style, and certain actions as the only "right" way is dangerous. It doesn't leave any room for the person (promoting the philosophy) to be wrong. It doesn't leave any room for that person's philosophy to evolve further, or for them to admit that the way they felt about something in the past might not have been right.

I'm not trying to pick on you, just using your post as an example of how seeing only one right way can really end up biting us in the butt.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
If you were infallible, that would be all I'd need to know. But you aren't, and none of us are. Promoting a parenting philosphy, style, and certain actions as the only "right" way is dangerous. It doesn't leave any room for the person (promoting the philosophy) to be wrong. It doesn't leave any room for that person's philosophy to evolve further, or for them to admit that the way they felt about something in the past might not have been right.

And here's where I see some of the danger of unchecked, unmoderated judgment of other mamas. I agree with you 100% (well except for the part where you insinuate that I'm not infallible - otherwise, I'm right there with you).


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nycapmom*
The OP may have been about a first time mom leaving her newborn for a few hrs (assuming that is what "for the night" meant) but what followed were many, many posts discussing how awful it would be even to judge a mother for leaving a newborn for 2 weeks.

"many, many?"

I read this entire thread as it occured and don't remember "many, many" posters saying it would be "awful" to judge a mom for leaving a new born for two weeks. There were "many, many" post about the fruitless and ultimatly damaging endeavor of judging mothers, but not "many, many" about that particular example. A lot of examples were brought up.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *matts_mamamama*

What happened to the OP?

I worry a bit that, as we've discussed this issue with her as exhibit A, that this has been a harrowing thread for her. I wish the language of this thread had been gentler for that reason.


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Well I for one have no problem saying that some issues, like spanking and CIO, are not acceptable treatment for any child, they do harm, and avoiding them is in every child's best interest.

Obviously some in this thread have no such qualms~ any choice a parent makes is fine.

Hmm, who said CIO and spanking were fine? HOw do they compare to a woman leaving her babe with a relative for a few hours to see to her soul?
The poor woman went to a bible study, for god's sake!

The OP was very judgemental, enoughthat she said the other woman theree noticed her anger. How uncomfortable for a new member! Maybe the new woman wasn't *gasp* breastfeeding. Maybe, even worse, she knows she isn't going to be able to parent 24 hours a day. SOme people just can't. THey hate it. They yell, spank, terrorize. Or they're just miserable. If their children are well-cared for, should we judge?

Isn't the main point that we all try to raise well-adjusted, happy, productive members of society? And if I didn't practice AP with my first two, are they forever damaged? How about my oldest, surely the one I made the most mistakes with! She plans on AP'ing! NOt because I did with her, but because I did with her sisters, and she saw how great it was. No one forced it on her, she witnessed it and decided for herself.

Just like us.

So, faced with a new mother who feels AP'ing is weird, why not just bring them an issue of Mothering? Let them see your parenting in progress andlearn. Why do we need to feel we are special and better than others? Can't we agree that different families will need to do things differently?

Is AP about sitting in judgement? IN church!?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

When I asked if it's okay to vent, I was being somewhat philosophical. LifeTapestry, I really liked that answer you gave, basically that those who were criticizing the OP were also venting. You are right. And of course they have as much right to their opinion and their venting as the OP does.

And I think it was heartmama who reminded us that internet forums are public places where one should expect all manner of replies, and no "side" of the opinion has less right to be here.

Quote:

You present something as "biological fact" and all the implicit "facts" that go along with it, and it just simply ISN'T fact, biological or otherwise.
Well, as much as anything can be "factual" I believe that yes, my statement that human babies are designed to be with their mothers is fact. Name one mammalian species where the male plays any role in childrearing. But that's not the point. The problem lies in what was added in the quote above: "_...all the implicit facts that go along with it_". Well that was precisely my point in my previous post: it isn't my "fact" that is the problem, it's what everybody IMPLIES or ASSUMES comes from that statement. It's like pointing out the "fact" that breastmilk is far superior to formula, and then being told that such a statement is somehow insulting or denigrating to anybody who has ever fed formula. And THAT is the part I'm tired of. Nowhere in any of my posts did I criticize formula or mothers who use it, and yet several people felt the need to jump in and defend the formula-feeding mothers of the world. Why is this and when is it going to stop? Well, I think part of the answer lies here:

Quote:

I do not think our harsh judgement of non AP mamas is about AP being marginalized. I think a lot of it is about this culture's tendency to motherblame - to harshly critique mothers for everything and not offer support...I am very pro AP. I am also anti mother blaming (altho I do it, and it is done to me). And in my own life I am trying to find a balance between both things.
I just picked up a book at the library called "Bad Mothers". It's about this very thing: our tendency to motherblame. I haven't read it yet, but I'm looking forward to it.









I think it's quite unfair to assume that the OP's feelings were simply to brag about what a great mother she was. There are as many reasons why she felt the way she did as there are for feeding formula, and it's unfair to jump to the worst conclusion without knowing the facts.

...and that's the way I see it, from up here on my precarious perch straddling the fence of this discussion and frantically waving whichever pom-poms are relevant to the post at hand. I have to say that MDC mamas rock. All of you!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

"who said CIO and spanking were fine?"

There have been very similiar vents here about CIO and spanking, and very similiar replies from people who~surprise~think it's wrong to vent about a situation where an individual witnessed a spanking or an infant being left to cry.

On a mainstream board, none of these issues would be vent worthy (spanking, CIO, leaving a newborn, bottlefeeding, various ap issues). But I can understand why someone comes here to vent about these issues. I recognized that ap is marginalized, that ap parents need a space to reclaim their own feelings, and I support parents who do that here.


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Is leaving a newborn for a few hours really that un-AP?
And at least half of the issue is with the response _at the time_ being counterproductive to AP advocacy, and down right rude..

But I agree that venting is ok, as long as it doesn't turn into a "Oh! I'd never do something like that!" thread...especially when many of the members here _would_ do something like that. (unlike spanking or CIO).


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

THis thread is interesting. I'm surprised by the answers of some. I expected more ppl to be shocked that someone would leave their 2 weeks old with someone else, even if it were a close relative. From posts/attitudes I've seen in the past I would have assumed that more would have said, I'd never leave my 2 weeks old for a minute.

Interesting...

I would never leave my 2 weeks old like that. I will freely admit that I would wonder about someone who would. Not because it makes them a bad mother but to me it just seems odd.

I'm also surprised that so many are jumping the case of the "judgmental" OP. If I were going to vent about something like this I'd come here too.

I dont' do all things AP. I've always been open about that. But I figured this would be the one place ppl would undertand my confusion, sadness, or outrage.

I fin it sad that she would think that her child was not welcome. Quite frankly, when my babies were babies they went everywhere. If you dont want my kids you don't want me. Its pretty simple. (well, some situations are obviously not for children) BUt I can also see as a new mother maybe being a little nervous to ask about bringing my infant. It is sad to me that we live in a world where children are annoyances instead of blessings.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Name one mammalian species where the male plays any role in childrearing.

Humans. Or is it **** sapiens, science dude?

Next time ask a tougher question please









Karla


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## motocita (Oct 31, 2004)

nak

i've read every post on this thread, and it has been very thought-provoking.

i struggle almost everyday with my judgement of other parenting styles. for me, it does not come from a place of superiority, but rather from a place of concern for the baby. i can't help wondering how such-and-such action will affect the baby for the rest of their life. i do not want to judge others, and also, i do not want to ever see a baby hurt









i will keep reading to see if i can come closer to deciding whether it is OK to leave a baby or not. i have a 7 month old that i never leave. sometimes i would like to do one of the activities i used to do for a few hours, but i picture her crying for me and not being there for her and it breaks my heart. i know in this case the baby was left with an aunt. but don't babies always want their mothers, regardless of how loving the substitute caregiver is? or, do some babies really not suffer when left with others?

sorry if this is a bit off topic. if someone can redirect me to another place where i can find this answer, i'd appreciate it.


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:

but don't babies always want their mothers, regardless of how loving the substitute caregiver is? or, do some babies really not suffer when left with others?
It depends on the baby, and their relationship with the substitute caregiver, as far as I know...


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
Is leaving a newborn for a few hours really that un-AP?
And at least half of the issue is with the response _at the time_ being counterproductive to AP advocacy, and down right rude..

But I agree that venting is ok, as long as it doesn't turn into a "Oh! I'd never do something like that!" thread...especially when many of the members here _would_ do something like that. (unlike spanking or CIO).

It depends on whether you believe in attachment parenting or attachment mothering.

its_our_family-- What, exactly, would you wonder about that mother? What is so unbelievably odd about a woman, a mother, going somewhere alone for a few hours?

Who needs the patriarchy?


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *motocita*
but don't babies always want their mothers, regardless of how loving the substitute caregiver is? or, do some babies really not suffer when left with others?

I've been following this thread and although a lot of posts have resonated positively and negatively with me, this is something I want to respond to, cause every time I read about babies always wanting their mothers I wince at the biology implied and how that must make adoptive parents and foster parents feel. Cause some babies don't have any bio-mother, but two fathers, or mothers they are not biologically related to. And I wince because those babes flourish under the love and nuturing of their parents and they aren't substitute care givers, but the parents. And I know this may be a little OT, but what does a discussion like this say about primary caregivers who are not biologically related to the babes?

Cause right after i had my son (before I never thought about it) I used to feel awful about Children's Aid Society interventions that happen in hospital, where babes are taken into protective custody right after the birth, and how they must ache from being taken away from someone they need. But then as my son grew and I met an incredible woman who does emergency foster care for infants (read: those babes removed from the mother in hospital), and everything shifted and I realized how self-important and egocentric I was being. Cause I have watched her for about 3 1/2 years now, and seen her care for clsoe to 10 new borns, one of whom she has adopted now at 2 1/2; a girl who has been with her since she was a few hours old, and I can say without a doubt that babes don't suffer without the biological parent. New born babes have definite needs: to be held and fed and loved, and it really doesn't matter who is meeting those needs so long as they are met. And when a babe needs food it doesn't mater whether or not it comes from a breast or a bottle. Would it be better babes are not fed if it can't be done at the breast? It was hard to realize my babe wouldn't wither and die without me, because I'm his mama. How humbled I was (and privledged in my thinking before hand) when I realized that new babes still sleep and coo and hang out when bio mom isn't there. They still do what they would if she were the one holding them. Babes can be attachment parented by all the caregivers and parents in her life; it does not NEED to fall only on the shoulders of the bio-mom.

So a mama leaving a babe for a few hours in the arms of a trusted adult doesn't do anything more than let the mom have a break. And who is to say that that break isn't necessary?


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
its_our_family-- What, exactly, would you wonder about that mother? What is so unbelievably odd about a woman, a mother, going somewhere alone for a few hours?


I feel it odd because I wouldn't do it. IT is possible to wonder why some ppl do some things different. Ther isn't anything wrong with that. I didn't say she was a bad mother because of it. Don't jump my case beause it makes me WONDER. I wonder about a lot of things. That doesn't mean I think there is something wrong with everyone who does things different.

Its like everything else here, I Can remember a day when the majority of the board would have gasped at the idea. Even if they would have done it themselves they wouldn't have admitted it. I'm not saying that is a good thing either. I'm just surprised by the answers.

I don't think there is anything wrong with taking a break. Tracy didn't sleep more than 45 minutes at a time from birth until he was 6 months old. I owuld have LOVED a break but I still wouldn't have left Tracy with someone else, no matter who they were, at 2 weeks. I'm not better than someone else I'm just different. Someone else may find it odd that I wouldn't have accepted the offer to have someone else take him for a few hours. IN fact I KNOW there were ppl IRL that didn't undertand and thought I was odd for wanting to keep him with me even if I needed a break. There are ppl who find it odd I don't vax. I find it odd that they would blindly follow their pewd in doing it.

A lot of thigns are odd that doesn't make them wrong. They are odd to me because I don't understand it.

If your problem is with the word "odd" swap it for "curious". Same definition just a more accurate word.

I wanted to add that I would have responded differently than the OP. I would have welcomed her and asked her how being a new mom was going and explained she was more than welcome to bring her babe if she felt comfrotable doing that.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
Was the first post really about that mother, or was it about showcasing how wonderful the OP was because she would clearly never do something so awful? I found that first post to be so self-righteous, like she was _proud_ of herself for being so appalled.

It was about the OP being "proud of herself for being so appalled" She was also looking for a "High Five" from us.

Self-Righteous here on MDC(not ALL, don't misunderstand, but quite a few)-Which is why I mostly lurk.

You know how *I* would have responded to that New Mother? I would have walked right over to her, smiled, welcomed her to the group and given her a









Because I am one less "Self Righteous AP, I am better than You because I would never leave my 2week old" Mom that she has to deal with.

My name says it all. I suffered severely from PPD and to someone who had NEVER been exposed to babies, my newborn was a culture shock for me! I didn't know what the hell I was doing. When you are going through PPD, you are in a thick, thick fog and you can't see clearly so I am sure I broke every AP rule there was (whatever they are).

On the days when both my newborn and I were crying because I didn't know he was colicy and although I held him I couldn't comfort him, I STILL felt like a failure as a new mom. If I was that New Mother walking into that group and if the OP would have just put aside her personal differences and just dealt with ME, hugged ME, supported ME, Loved ME, comforted ME and told ME "Hey, I know it's rough, you will get through this"







That would have made a world of difference in my self esteem. Who better to give a Stamp of Approval from another Mama right?

But the way the OP acted toward the new mother, had that ME when I had just became a New Mommy, I would have been DEVASTATED and sunk further into my PPD. Because she sounded just like my doctor who told me PPD was all in my head. "You women will blame anything on these babies" He said to me.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy*
But the way the OP acted toward the new mother, had that ME when I had just became a New Mommy, I would have been DEVASTATED and sunk further into my PPD. Because she sounded just like my doctor who told me PPD was all in my head. "You women will blame anything on these babies" He said to me.


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa*
every time I read about babies always wanting their mothers I wince at the biology implied and how that must make adoptive parents and foster parents feel. Cause some babies don't have any bio-mother, but two fathers, or mothers they are not biologically related to. And I wince because those babes flourish under the love and nuturing of their parents and they aren't substitute care givers, but the parents. And I know this may be a little OT, but what does a discussion like this say about primary caregivers who are not biologically related to the babes?


Thank you thank you thank you for posting this!! For all the supposed liberal open-mindedness on MDC, the model most often held up as the best is bio-mom home with bio baby while bio dad is off in the background somewhere, earning $$ or something. There are exceptions, but the biology card gets played often enough to reveal what many people think is the most "natural" way to raise a child.


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## Deja (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*
I think it's dangerous to socialize mothers into believing that you can't ever leave your kids until they are 5 or 6 or whatever age posters in this thread find acceptable. All mothers are different in what makes them good mothers, and for some, that includes time away from their children. I personally think it's preferable for mothers to feel that they can take time off from mothering rather than starting losing it with their kids or sliding down into post partum depression or even into that terrible place where you drown your 5 kids in the bathtub or stab them with knives.

And isn't it just basic that attachment parenting has at its core that you provide for your children's needs, not that you stick like glue to them for 5 years? Perhaps nobody here wants to admit it, but fathers and other family members as well as competent non-relative caregivers are all perfectly capable of providing for a baby's needs, no matter what the age. My 3 1/2 year old has been cared for by several different people, for time periods ranging from 2 hours to 6 days, from when he was about 5 weeks old until now. His needs have always been met, and I'm secure enough in my relationship to him to realize that while nobody can take my place, he does not need me 24 hours a day.

What's irritating in this thread is not the original situation posted about, but the b.s. prescriptions about what mothers have to do in order to be acceptable to some people who wave the AP flag. No wonder tons of people make fun of AP and the kinds of things that people espousing AP say.

I also wish that this forum was less about what other parents do and why we're just so gosh darn great and more about the honest struggles of trying to parent in the best way possible.

Karla


Excellent, EXCELLENT post!!!

Since before my conscious memory, my mother left me in the care of a beloved grandmother, and cherished Aunt and cousins. As I grew older my mother told me that it was normal to want a break from her (and I did want time away from her, even though I was fiercely bonded to my mother) and that it was normal for a mother to want a break too. While that comment was surprising, (I couldn't see her as a person yet, only as my mother), it didn't disturb me because I was excited to get to go to my grandmother's house.

As a mother, I ended up 'attachment parenting', although I had never even heard of it at the time. It just seemed like the common sense way to raise a child to me.









So, I don't think that my mother leaving me with family members did anything but nurture lifelong bonds between myself and my family.

And I agree with the sentiments expressed above. A mother learns to manage everyone else's needs, but if she attempts to manage her own needs, her parenting is frequently judged as lacking. Is it any wonder that so many young mothers are depressed and even despondent?

I think that the mother who attends to her own needs as well as to the needs of her family should be encouraged and supported, not condemned.


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## Deja (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy*
On the days when both my newborn and I were crying because I didn't know he was colicy and although I held him I couldn't comfort him, I STILL felt like a failure as a new mom. If I was that New Mother walking into that group and if the OP would have just put aside her personal differences and just dealt with ME, hugged ME, supported ME, Loved ME, comforted ME and told ME "Hey, I know it's rough, you will get through this"







That would have made a world of difference in my self esteem. Who better to give a Stamp of Approval from another Mama right? (


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*

And this is going to be flamed, I'm sure (its OK, I can take it). But why exactly do we care so much about whether newborns are not left overnight thier mothers or whether mothers choose to ff so as not change thier breasts? Why exactly do I care how other people are raising their kids when I know that happy childhoods and happy adults emerge, the end goal right, emerge from so many differnt kinds of parenting practices. We do have a stake in making sure vulnerable members of our society are not abused - but a night at an aunt's as an infant or forumla-feeding because mom has a large physchological stake in her breasts does not sound abuse, even in its loosest definition.


Why care about any of the choices we make then? Parents choices to breastfeed (even when things happen to interrupt that), cosleep, not vax, not circ, eat healthy foods, etc. come from research, lots of reading and discussion and dedication to their children. These are hard choices to make...they aren't a flip of the coin..."Circ or not circ...whichever??"

These choices _matter._ I don't paticularly agree that we need to police other mothers, but to suggest that ANY choice is ok seems to trivialize the work of parenthood.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom4tot*
Why care about any of the choices we make then? Parents choices to breastfeed (even when things happen to interrupt that), cosleep, not vax, not circ, eat healthy foods, etc. come from research, lots of reading and discussion and dedication to their children. These are hard choices to make...they aren't a flip of the coin..."Circ or not circ...whichever??"

These choices _matter._ I don't paticularly agree that we need to police other mothers, but to suggest that ANY choice is ok seems to trivialize the work of parenthood.

Yes, they do matter, but not because choice X = better, happy baby and hence better mom. Our choices are not just research based (especially since research doesn't point in one direction; much research, for example, says that cribs are safer than beds and vaxing is safer than not vaxing), rather our choices are based on our pespective and world view and temperment. In fact we are drawn to certain kinds of research studies and we tend to discount other kinds of research studies (I ignore, for example, much of the CDC research on vaxing ) because of the perspective we started with. If ALL research pointed in one direction, there wouldn't be hundreds of different parenting books saying hundres of different things.

And lots of moms, dedicated to thier kids (mainstream moms are dedicated to their kids too you know), do all the research, and lots of reading and discussing, and yet they still decide not to co-sleep and they decide to vax and to eat meat.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Re: the whole bio mom at home/bio dad at work model.

I think it's also important to keep in mind that until very recent (Western) history, children were commonly raised by extended families. I suspect that being surrounded by (yes, usually female) family members--sisters, aunts, cousins, their own moms, and many children--allowed women to build that break time that people are talking about into their daily lives. My mom grew up surrounding by aunts and cousins and these people did help raise her. Her mom didn't think she was "abandoning" her daughter by allowing her sister to hold or care for the baby for an hour or two--this was the natural result of extended family parenting. And, frankly, I think my mom had a better, richer upbringing because of it. I think that today moms can be more isolated, particularly in terms of extended family--which is why it might feel like a bigger disruption of the normal rhythm of things to leave your child with someone else.

So, I guess the whole "don't leave your baby with a relative because babies biologically need their mothers" rubs me a little the wrong way not only because of the primacy it assigns to biology, but also because the idea of a mother raising her children alone seems, to me, to be a fairly modern and not necessarily positive phenomenon.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg*
the idea of a mother raising her children alone seems, to me, to be a fairly modern and not necessarily positive phenomenon.

That's about the wisest thing that has been said on this thread. I know that there are mothers who are completely happy being alone with their babies all the time. But humans are not created to be isolated. We are social animals, and the 20th/21st century scenario of a mother being alone in her house all day with her kids is not natural.

Namaste!


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
That's about the wisest thing that has been said on this thread. I know that there are mothers who are completely happy being alone with their babies all the time. But humans are not created to be isolated. We are social animals, and the 20th/21st century scenario of a mother being alone in her house all day with her kids is not natural.

Namaste!


Hear hear! Great posts NYCVeg and dharmamama!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg*
So, I guess the whole "don't leave your baby with a relative because babies biologically need their mothers" rubs me a little the wrong way...

And well it should. Because that is absolutely NOT what I said. Nowhere does the recognition of the biological role of mothers, or the behavioural characteristics of infants that such a role has fostered over the millenia, suggest that leaving a baby with a trusted relative is somehow damaging to anyone involved. In fact I totally agree with this poster's characterization of the network of female support that exists in traditional societies (including many non-human primate ones). To suggest that Nature's design of mammalian mothers and their infants precludes anything other than human mothers being with their infants 24/7 is to grossly misinterpret the science of evolutionary behaviour and discredit the vital role it has played in shaping the attachment parenting movement, not to mention modern parenting practices such as the certification of "baby-friendly hospitals", for example.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
And well it should. Because that is absolutely NOT what I said.

Piglet, just wanted to clarify: I wasn't responding to you (or anyone) directly. Frankly, I've read through so many posts on this thread, that I can't remember who said what! I was just picking up on an undercurrent I sensed in the discussion.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

ditto to you, nycveg.







just using your last post as an example...

cheers!


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## Jen123 (Mar 16, 2004)

good grief I had no idea my rant in tao would be moved over here , nor did I suspect it'd get such hate in response. I posted it , and moved on. I haven't even checked back into the thread until I started recieving private messages meant to pick me up and ask how I'm doing. I'll be blunt...

The same way ya'll feel I've judged that new mother.... you've judged me also. You weren't there , you didn't see the roll of her eyes , her body langauge , the sneer on her lips when talking about having to take care of a newborn, how having a child has interuppted her schedule... Add to all that she'd left the newborn over night for convience purposes and yes , I became angry. Not a self righteuous...I'm better-becuz-I-keep-my-kids-all-day anger...but rather anger for a small child who obviously is a bother to his mother.

No , I didn't want a high five. I'm not that childish. I've already moved on. I don't see this woman on a regular basis and how she lives her life really has no bearing on my own.....but her complete disregard for her two week old set my nerves on fire. The final straw was when she said she'd left the child 'for the night' with an aunt. (hence my posting on leaving an eight week old overnight for convience purposes..it was the final straw for me...and like most final straws it got the brunt of my feelings)

No where did I suggest she lock herself in her home and force herself to like being a new mother. Obviously she needs out for her own sanity. She KNEW she could bring her child and hold him (or leave him in the carrier) during the meeting , she KNEW there were babysitting options available OR she could have opted to leave her child with a relative for an hour OR she could've hired a teenager OR she could've had her hubby stay home. But no , the trouble was too much and the baby cries at night and good lands the baby dirtied sooo many diapers that first week they had to buy two packs...it was EASIER to leave the child with someone else for the night. Not as a mommy-sanity-saving moment , not so the aunt could get to know her niece better ....but so the mama didn't have to do it.

Having been a young mother who required frequent sanity saving breaks , I recognize another immediately. She wasn't it.

I bit my tongue (HARD) standing next to her....next time I'll bite my tongue on mdc.


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## motocita (Oct 31, 2004)

nicole lisa said:


> I've been following this thread and although a lot of posts have resonated positively and negatively with me, this is something I want to respond to, cause every time I read about babies always wanting their mothers I wince at the biology implied and how that must make adoptive parents and foster parents feel. Cause some babies don't have any bio-mother, but two fathers, or mothers they are not biologically related to. And I wince because those babes flourish under the love and nuturing of their parents and they aren't substitute care givers, but the parents. And I know this may be a little OT, but what does a discussion like this say about primary caregivers who are not biologically related to the babes?
> 
> nicole lisa, just wanted to clarify, when i say "mother" i mean, the primary caregiver in that baby's life. i totally believe that a mother can be an adoptive mother, foster mother, etc.
> 
> i meant to ask: does the baby suffer being gone from its primary caregiver, whoever that may be? i have only one dc, so i honestly don't know the answer to this question, but i would really like to know!


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *motocita*
when i say "mother" i mean, the primary caregiver in that baby's life. i totally believe that a mother can be an adoptive mother, foster mother, etc.

i meant to ask: does the baby suffer being gone from its primary caregiver, whoever that may be? i have only one dc, so i honestly don't know the answer to this question, but i would really like to know!

I totally agree that mother can refer to bio, adopted, foster mother, or a bio/adopted/foster dad, or a relative, whomever is the primary care provider. I do believe that babies, especially newborns experience stress when they are separated from their primary care provider(s). I think this belief is why the thread is so divided; there are some people who believe that separation from the primary care person (who is usually the mother) is stressful and even harmful to newborns, and so they feel that the babies needs are not being met in these kinds of situations. Actually, I really feel dissapointed in our culture in this sitaution, instead of the mom. I feel sad that breastfeeding is not the norm in our culture, that it is the norm for moms and babies to be separated by those baby buckets, strollers, sleeping in other rooms, etc. (not that you can't be attached and do these things, but I do think they do not promote attachment), that women new to motherhood are isolated without support, that our culture is so child-unfriendly...


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmer mama*
I totally agree that mother can refer to bio, adopted, foster mother, or a bio/adopted/foster dad, or a relative, whomever is the primary care provider. I do believe that babies, especially newborns experience stress when they are separated from their primary care provider(s). I think this belief is why the thread is so divided; there are some people who believe that separation from the primary care person (who is usually the mother) is stressful and even harmful to newborns, and so they feel that the babies needs are not being met in these kinds of situations. Actually, I really feel dissapointed in our culture in this sitaution, instead of the mom. I feel sad that breastfeeding is not the norm in our culture, that it is the norm for moms and babies to be separated by those baby buckets, strollers, sleeping in other rooms, etc. (not that you can't be attached and do these things, but I do think they do not promote attachment), that women new to motherhood are isolated without support, that our culture is so child-unfriendly...

What about primary care giver*s*? Plural. Why would the child experience stress unless they were with one single primary care giver? As long as they know their primary caregivers well and are attached to them and have their needs (needs inlcuding love and attachment) met by them, why is one better than two or three?


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmer mama*
I do believe that babies, especially newborns experience stress when they are separated from their primary care provider(s).

Mamawanabe- I am quoting myself here, but that is why I put that little (s) and the end of provider (s), plural.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg*
So, I guess the whole "don't leave your baby with a relative because babies biologically need their mothers" rubs me a little the wrong way not only because of the primacy it assigns to biology, but also because the idea of a mother raising her children alone seems, to me, to be a fairly modern and not necessarily positive phenomenon.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:

I know that there are mothers who are completely happy being alone with their babies all the time. But humans are not created to be isolated. We are social animals, and the 20th/21st century scenario of a mother being alone in her house all day with her kids is not natural.
I think this is a matter of perspective...I don't consider myself "isolated" because I'm at home with my toddler...I personally find him an interactive, social, FUN person to be around. We're not discussing quantum physics







but I genuinely enjoy our days together. I'm not a SAHM b/c I'm a martyr torturing myself in quarantine, I chose to do this because this is where I actually want to be all day. I do take umbrage with the statement that it's "*not natural*" for me to be with my child all day...mothering my toddler is unnatural?








And besides, who stays home all day every day? Most of us are out and about quite frequently, I just have a buddy that goes with me everywhere.









edited to add.....I may be the primary caregiver from 8am-6pm, but DH is a completely equal coparent...he gets DS up in the morning, he takes over the minute he walks in the door at night and spends the vast majority of his weekend with DS, including their alone time (lunch out, etc) etc....I'm hardly "parening alone"


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

My response to mamawanabe's question is that there is nothing wrong with, say both mother and father equally caring for baby. But my guess is that 1) this won't work for women who are exclusively breastfeeding, at least in the early weeks before a bottle should be introduced, and even then successfully breastfeeding is much easier on most women if baby nurses from the breast most of the time (I have nothing but respect for working mothers, and any of them can tell you it's not easy to pump all day and EBF a young baby - there's a reason BFing rates in the USA plummet right at the time - 12 weeks - that most mothers are returning to work) and 2) I think there are a lot of babies, dare I say the majority of babies, who prefer the mother, no matter how loving or involved the father (or aunt, or grandmother) is. I think that's why you see so many threads from new mothers wondering when they'll be able to leave baby without baby crying the whole time, or that their DH thinks the baby "hates him", etc...

I've been thinking about this thread all day. I'm thinking that one of the problems we are struggling with is how to encourage a *society* to embrace BFing, cosleeping, and an encouragement of mothers to be with their babies...and how to balance that with acceptance of *individuals* for whom that isn't a desirable choice. Rally against a society that encourages or forces separation of mothers and babes, but embrace those women who want or need that separation. I still try to wrap my mind around it...


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Piglet, ITA. I think a really important thing (at least for me) to remember is that the baby needing to be with mama or one care provider because of exclusive breastfeeding or preference (as what usually happens) is temporary. At this point my kids depend pretty much equally on dh and myself as primary care providers. I am taking care of my kids by myself (but have a small community of close friends that we homeschool with) from when they wake at 9 to when their dad gets home at 3:30. Then he is pretty much on kid duty until I lay down to nurse my youngest at night. It is pretty much 50/50, despite me being there 24/7, and him being gone working part of the day. The time period where I as the mom was the main care provider was really a few short months, and a fraction of my life as a parent. Why not follow the baby's lead during that time?


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
My response to mamawanabe's question is that there is nothing wrong with, say both mother and father equally caring for baby. But my guess is that 1) this won't work for women who are exclusively breastfeeding, at least in the early weeks before a bottle should be introduced, and even then successfully breastfeeding is much easier on most women if baby nurses from the breast most of the time (I have nothing but respect for working mothers, and any of them can tell you it's not easy to pump all day and EBF a young baby - there's a reason BFing rates in the USA plummet right at the time - 12 weeks - that most mothers are returning to work) and 2) I think there are a lot of babies, dare I say the majority of babies, who prefer the mother, no matter how loving or involved the father (or aunt, or grandmother) is. I think that's why you see so many threads from new mothers wondering when they'll be able to leave baby without baby crying the whole time, or that their DH thinks the baby "hates him", etc...

Hey woman!








I wanted to comment that this depends on the child. Goo prefers me. Moo, however, has been an equal opportunity snuggle hound between Dr Foo and I. She will take either of us and it is rare for her to want me over him.
Granted. we FF and that has allowed him to be close to her, but I was the one who took the 3 months off with her and stays home one day a week with her (and Goo).

Quote:

I've been thinking about this thread all day. I'm thinking that one of the problems we are struggling with is how to encourage a *society* to embrace BFing, cosleeping, and an encouragement of mothers to be with their babies...and how to balance that with acceptance of *individuals* for whom that isn't a desirable choice. Rally against a society that encourages or forces separation of mothers and babes, but embrace those women who want or need that separation. I still try to wrap my mind around it...
It is a difficult problem. I personally see no proplem with a mom taking some time off. I mean, we are people and some people need more space than others. However, we should, as a *society* be able to encourage AP behaviors. This is tricky. I encourage new moms to "do what feels RIGHT". I don't tell them that they have to do it one way or another, but I often hear from new moms that they WANT to do an AP thing (although rarely in those words), yet they are afraid of what *society* thinks about it.

What a f*cked up world we live in, eh?


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jen123*
good grief I had no idea my rant in tao would be moved over here , nor did I suspect it'd get such hate in response. I posted it , and moved on. I haven't even checked back into the thread until I started recieving private messages meant to pick me up and ask how I'm doing. I'll be blunt...

The same way ya'll feel I've judged that new mother.... you've judged me also. You weren't there , you didn't see the roll of her eyes , her body langauge , the sneer on her lips when talking about having to take care of a newborn, how having a child has interuppted her schedule... Add to all that she'd left the newborn over night for convience purposes and yes , I became angry. Not a self righteuous...I'm better-becuz-I-keep-my-kids-all-day anger...but rather anger for a small child who obviously is a bother to his mother.

No , I didn't want a high five. I'm not that childish. I've already moved on. I don't see this woman on a regular basis and how she lives her life really has no bearing on my own.....but her complete disregard for her two week old set my nerves on fire. The final straw was when she said she'd left the child 'for the night' with an aunt. (hence my posting on leaving an eight week old overnight for convience purposes..it was the final straw for me...and like most final straws it got the brunt of my feelings)

No where did I suggest she lock herself in her home and force herself to like being a new mother. Obviously she needs out for her own sanity. She KNEW she could bring her child and hold him (or leave him in the carrier) during the meeting , she KNEW there were babysitting options available OR she could have opted to leave her child with a relative for an hour OR she could've hired a teenager OR she could've had her hubby stay home. But no , the trouble was too much and the baby cries at night and good lands the baby dirtied sooo many diapers that first week they had to buy two packs...it was EASIER to leave the child with someone else for the night. Not as a mommy-sanity-saving moment , not so the aunt could get to know her niece better ....but so the mama didn't have to do it.

Having been a young mother who required frequent sanity saving breaks , I recognize another immediately. She wasn't it.

I bit my tongue (HARD) standing next to her....next time I'll bite my tongue on mdc.

I think this bit of knowledge puts your original post in an entirely different light. The impression that I got and I suspect others may have from the original post was that the new Mom was at this group and just had chosen not to bring her child. There was no mention of her complaining about the baby or anything else. The way I read the original post was that the Mom was being judged because she left her baby with a relative without full understanding of the situation, in the absence of that knowledge I think there is a tendency/desire to assume the best.

Clearly there were other issues going on and the Mom leaving the baby is just a small part of that since from this post, it sounds like the Mom may be having some adjustment issues as far as being a parent.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama*
I do take umbrage with the statement that it's "*not natural*" for me to be with my child all day...mothering my toddler is unnatural?

Nowhere did I say that mothering your toddler is unnatural. Surely you know that's not what I meant. The key word in what I said is "alone." It is not natural for a mother to be _alone_ with her kids, solely responsible for them, all day. It's not natural. That's not how humans were created. It has nothing to do with whether you like being with your children (I do) or whether you like your children (I do). However, sometimes I feel the weight of responsibility bearing down on me, the fact that my assistance is needed by my children in some capacity pretty much constantly. If I were truly living in a "natural" state, I would be in a tribe and there would be lots of other women around to lighten the load. That's the way humans were created. That's what's natural.

Namaste!


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

If I were truly living in a "natural" state, I would be in a tribe and there would be lots of other women around to lighten the load. That's the way humans were created. That's what's natural.

Word. All of this essentialist propaganda would have us believe that the "natural" way to do things is to leve the woman with the baby, the house, and the cooking. What? Where did that come from? What does that have to do with biology? Nothing.

I know plenty of moms who had adjustment issues. Lots. I know plenty of women who were angry and resentful of their babies and their families and husbands and other mothers who didn't tell them the truth about what was going to happen to them. I've seen plenty of new mothers who were angry and rightfully so. If you need evidence that new mothers have something to be angry about, then look at this thread! To me, it sounds like the mother might be dealing with PPD. So get angry at her? This new information gives me more sympathy for the offending mother. Do you really think that getting angry at this mom is going to help her baby?

You're all for staking out your claim for a safe space to vent, but clearly you offered none to this woman.

If you don't leave a baby with someone else so that you don't have to take care of the baby for a while, then why do it?

I'm really, genuinely confused by your posts, jen123, and confused as to why you want all of us to support you when you clearly witheld support from this woman.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
If I were truly living in a "natural" state, I would be in a tribe and there would be lots of other women around to lighten the load. That's the way humans were created. That's what's natural.

Word. All of this essentialist propaganda would have us believe that the "natural" way to do things is to leve the woman with the baby, the house, and the cooking. What? Where did that come from? What does that have to do with biology? Nothing.

I know plenty of moms who had adjustment issues. Lots. I know plenty of women who were angry and resentful of their babies and their families and husbands and other mothers who didn't tell them the truth about what was going to happen to them. I've seen plenty of new mothers who were angry and rightfully so. If you need evidence that new mothers have something to be angry about, then look at this thread! To me, it sounds like the mother might be dealing with PPD. So get angry at her? This new information gives me more sympathy for the offending mother. Do you really think that getting angry at this mom is going to help her baby?

You're all for staking out your claim for a safe space to vent, but clearly you offered none to this woman.

If you don't leave a baby with someone else so that you don't have to take care of the baby for a while, then why do it?

I'm really, genuinely confused by your posts, jen123, and confused as to why you want all of us to support you when you clearly witheld support from this woman.

ITA...


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:

I know plenty of women who were angry and resentful of their babies and their families and husbands and other mothers who didn't tell them the truth about what was going to happen to them.
Babies and children take a lot of time and energy....that's just reality. It's nice when you have friends and family to help, but ultimately, friends and family aren't the ones choosing to have children. I feel like that's what gets lost in these discussions..having a child is a CHOICE, it's an option (unless we're talking about rape, etc.) It's not mandatory. Women (and their partners) TTC/ make the decision to have a child, and then end up "angry"? "Resentful?" Aren't we all adults here with the capacity to reason through our decisions? The reality is that we don't live in tribes. We live in the 21st century.

I didn't need society at large to "warn" me about how much work, and sometimes hard work, having children is...I'm an adult and I made a reasoned decision, understanding that yes, sometimes, there would be sacrifice. I knew that it wasn't all about me anymore and for the next long stretch of my life someone else would always come first. Thankfully, the rewards match (and exceed) the challenges.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

BlueStateMama, ITA! It would be nice to live in a community where people were ready and able to drop everything to come help a new mama, but that's not reality. I don't think my neighbors even realized that I was pregnant, no less offered to come help when I was in the hospital or after I had my baby.

I made the choice, w/o any outside influence, to have my children. I knew kids were hard work, who doesn't know that? Did I know everything that I would go through emotionally when it came to having and raising them? No, of course not, but I also didn't know everything that I would go through emotionally when I got married and I'm certainly not asking for the neighborhood troops to come in and help me sort out everything there. There are ups and downs in all parts of life. Parenthood is no exception. To resent a child, to be angry with a baby, who did not ask to be born is just so, so wrong.

Nobody can tell you the truth of what's going to happen to you because nobody can know for sure. Every woman experiences pregnancy and motherhood differently. The postpartum period varies greatly from one person, and even one pregnancy, to the next. Do I resent my oldest for being born when I was 15 years old because I "missed out" on my own childhood? Do I resent my baby for being born early and having to stay in the NICU? Do I resent my other children for whatever...being children? NO, of course not. I had them because I wanted to have them. Nobody forced me to be a mother and they aren't here for any reason other than the fact that I wanted them here.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama*
Babies and children take a lot of time and energy....that's just reality. It's nice when you have friends and family to help, but ultimately, friends and family aren't the ones choosing to have children. I feel like that's what gets lost in these discussions..having a child is a CHOICE, it's an option (unless we're talking about rape, etc.) It's not mandatory. Women (and their partners) TTC/ make the decision to have a child, and then end up "angry"? "Resentful?" Aren't we all adults here with the capacity to reason through our decisions? The reality is that we don't live in tribes. We live in the 21st century.

I didn't need society at large to "warn" me about how much work, and sometimes hard work, having children is...I'm an adult and I made a reasoned decision, understanding that yes, sometimes, there would be sacrifice. I knew that it wasn't all about me anymore and for the next long stretch of my life someone else would always come first. Thankfully, the rewards match (and exceed) the challenges.


That's nice for you. However, I didn't know that having a child meant getting screamed at for 3 hours straight a day. Or that I would suffer PPD, or that breastfeeding would fail. And damn straight if I didn't get resentful because I knew it would be hard, but I wasn't prepared for how hard it was!

And while my children were planned, some people don't plan and have a pregnancy that didn't fit in with the life plan. So yes, angry and resentful are words I could use for a new mom.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Go, Mothra!

How interesting that some people think the fact that you made a "choice" means you never get to be ambivilant about the results of that "choice."
Or that making a choice means you are never entitled to help, empathy or compassion.

Must be so nice to see the world in such stark shades of black and white.
Must be awfully nice to walk around reducing the complex to the simplistic, and feeling so smug and superior about doing so.
How good that must make you feel. And turning those who don't live up to your standards into the "other" must make you feel very safe.

Too bad all that superiority is based on illusion.

I choose compassion, even for those of you who seem bound and determined to harden your hearts against your sister mamas. I don't know why you need to stone other women with such harsh words and judgments, but it makes me feel bad for you. You seem so... hardened. Maybe it is a defense mechanism or something, I don't know. But it is sad.

Mothra... I'd build a "village" with you any day.
And hugs to you, Foo.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
That's nice for you. However, I didn't know that having a child meant getting screamed at for 3 hours straight a day. Or that I would suffer PPD, or that breastfeeding would fail. And damn straight if I didn't get resentful because I knew it would be hard, but I wasn't prepared for how hard it was!

And while my children were planned, some people don't plan and have a pregnancy that didn't fit in with the life plan. So yes, angry and resentful are words I could use for a new mom.

You know, I had babies who screamed and cried all day long. I suffered PPD. I didn't have breastfeeding fail but I pumped every 2 hours around the clock with my last child and am doing it again, while nursing a toddler, this time and it's damn hard, however, NONE of those things are my childs fault. Why would I be resentful of a baby, innocent of the whole thing?

Only one of my 5 children was "planned". All of them were wanted. I made the choice to birth every single one of them, but planned, they were not. Do you think having a baby at 15 fit into my life plan? No way. Do you think getting pregnant (and having to go onto bedrest immediately) after FINALLY getting myself into college fit into my life plan? NO. Am I resentful of my child? Of course not. Am I resentful of my life? Nope, I couldn't have asked for a better one. Things don't always turn out the way you expect them to, you have to expect at least that. To carry around distaste and resentment for your child and your life is toxic and not beneficial to you or your baby.


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Jen123 said:


> Last night at small group (like a home bible study) , a new couple was introduced. Amongst all the new questions...I asked one. "do you have any children ?". The woman replied "yes. a two week old, our first. ". I looked around. "where is he?". The woman said "with an aunt for the night". WHAT???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
You know, I had babies who screamed and cried all day long. I suffered PPD. I didn't have breastfeeding fail but I pumped every 2 hours around the clock with my last child and am doing it again, while nursing a toddler, this time and it's damn hard, however, NONE of those things are my childs fault. Why would I be resentful of a baby, innocent of the whole thing?

Only one of my 5 children was "planned". All of them were wanted. I made the choice to birth every single one of them, but planned, they were not. Do you think having a baby at 15 fit into my life plan? No way. Do you think getting pregnant (and having to go onto bedrest immediately) after FINALLY getting myself into college fit into my life plan? NO. Am I resentful of my child? Of course not. Am I resentful of my life? Nope, I couldn't have asked for a better one. Things don't always turn out the way you expect them to, you have to expect at least that. To carry around distaste and resentment for your child and your life is toxic and not beneficial to you or your baby.


But it is NOT something I carry around. It is an emotion and I strongly feel that if you feel something, you should accept that is how you feel. I don't carry around resentment, but yes, I felt it and that is simply how I felt.

You never ONCE felt resentment at the situation? I don't mean of your child, but of your situation? You NEVER felt angry at being on bedrest? These emotions are real and they are not *toxic*. *THEY ARE HUMAN* Why can't we accept that some women are overwelmed with negative emotions with being a mother? Why must we make this out as a terrible person and toxic situation. Remember, I am refering to a NEW MOTHER.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

What I think is toxic is judgement of anyone who ever has a hard time with anything. Jeez. If parenting was all rose petals and vanilla ice cream there would be no need for a community like this one.

To be trite, no person is an island. We all go through hard times, I don't care whether or not you admit it. I'll be the first to admit that on those nights when I was up with a screaming newborn at 3:00 and had to be ready to get a 5yo ready for school and a 2yo breakfast at 6:00 you're damned skippy I felt isolated and resentful. Of course I didn't hate my baby, but there were many nights, and many days, when I just went through the motions. I had the easiest adjustment to parenting of anyone I know, and I still had it rough at times.

Overall the journey is amazing for me, I'm not speaking for anyone else at this point. But there are dark days. As my kids get older they are fewer and further between, but every now and again I run into a mother of a small infant and I see it in her eyes. Sometimes it really sucked for me and knowing that I wasn't alone got me through those times. I'll never withold support from any woman, regardless of how I feel about her parenting. I don't have to support spanking or CIO or leaving a baby overnight at two weeks in order to offer love and support to a mother who is struggling. I think that often mothers resort to those practices because of a lack of support. I do not understand the idea that in order to persuade women to move toward a gentler way of parenting we should be angry. I parent the way that I do because this is the kind of person that I am-- I don't reserve this type of interaction for my children alone.

I've seen many women in dark places I can't even imagine because I've never been there. That doesn't mean I can't be kind to them even if I don't understand what they are going through or how they are coping.

We're supposed to support our children, our husbands-- who supports us? We can't even support each other. It is sad and I'm understanding more and more how women get to the place where they don't feel like they can go on. If you can't imagine it, then count yourself lucky and move on.

What does it teach our children if we can't show compassion for people in pain? How is that teaching them to be gentle and kind people?


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
To carry around distaste and resentment for your child and your life is toxic and not beneficial to you or your baby.

It is also human. And it is very, very common. And it needs to be addressed with compassion, understanding and support. Not lectures. Not comparisons. Not condescension. Not talking AT people who have revealed painful things.

Why don't you get that?


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

The quote in question wasn't about the situation, it was about the baby.

Quote:

I know plenty of women who were *angry and resentful of their babies* and their families and husbands and other mothers who didn't tell them the truth about what was going to happen to them.
Sure, I was very upset that I was on bedrest. I hated it. I cried. I whined. I complained like crazy. Was I ever resentful of my child because I was there? No. Have I ever thought to myself "if things had been different"? yes, but I also think "if things had been different I wouldn't have my children and I wouldn't trade them for anything".

I can accept that people are overwhelmed, especially mothers, even more especially new mothers. We've all had bad days. In fact, I'm having one today, lol. I have a toddler who has learned to climb on the table and broke all of my decorative dishes and has been screaming at me all day for, what seems to be, no reason. My 10 and 6 year old have been fighting with one another all day. My 6 year old dropped the jelly and broke it all over the kitchen floor. My baby had to get a new IV today while I was visiting her in the NICU, and I've still got HOURS before bedtime, lol. But, I don't resent my kids. I don't resent my life or the way things have turned out. I am frustrated, yes, but accepting that this is just how things are some days.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

But the point is even if you *are* resentful of your child in the beginning, this is a normal reaction.

If it is accepted as that, then you can let it go and not carry it around with you.
(the you is in the generic sense)

And I am sorry today is so crazy! I never like to hear of any little one in NICU...


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
But the point is even if you *are* resentful of your child in the beginning, this is a normal reaction.

If it is accepted as that, then you can let it go and not carry it around with you.
(the you is in the generic sense)

And I am sorry today is so crazy! I never like to hear of any little one in NICU...

Ok, I can conceed that it may be a normal reaction and if you can accept that than you can let it go, but I worry that it's so accepted as normal to resent ones child that it may also be held onto and carried throughout the childs life. I have known people who've done it. They spend their childs entire life resenting them and resenting what their life has become because they were parents. The child suffers, the family suffers, and often, these same women go on to have more children who they resent every bit as much as the first and it makes me sad.

I just think that there is a huge difference between resenting a situation, and either changing the situation or moving on, and resenting a child who didn't ask to be here in the first place.

And thank you


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:

I just think that there is a huge difference between resenting a situation, and either changing the situation or moving on, and resenting a child who didn't ask to be here in the first place.
I don't think that mothers who have feelings of resentfulness toward their children _decide_ to have those feelings...
I, fortunately, had been a nanny before I got pregnant, so I knew what I was getting into. Some people just have no idea, though...pop-culture portrays motherhood unrealistically, and that is what many moms base their expectations off of.
And severe PPD will make you a little crazy, as well...
Resentfulness....yes, toward the baby, is common. It's just an abstract feeling, not a well thought out decision to blame the child.

Quote:

Ok, I can conceed that it may be a normal reaction and if you can accept that than you can let it go, but I worry that it's so accepted as normal to resent ones child that it may also be held onto and carried throughout the childs life. I have known people who've done it. They spend their childs entire life resenting them and resenting what their life has become because they were parents. The child suffers, the family suffers, and often, these same women go on to have more children who they resent every bit as much as the first and it makes me sad.
This situation, IMO, is one that involves a fairly severe mental illness. That is really messed up, and I'd encourage any mom in that situation to seek help of some sort.
Is that what happens when PPD doesn't ever go away? Just festers and grows?
...scary....


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:

Must be awfully nice to walk around reducing the complex to the simplistic, and feeling so smug and superior about doing so.
How good that must make you feel. And turning those who don't live up to your standards into the "other" must make you feel very safe.

Too bad all that superiority is based on illusion.

I choose compassion, even for those of you who seem bound and determined to harden your hearts against your sister mamas. I don't know why you need to stone other women with such harsh words and judgments, but it makes me feel bad for you. You seem so... hardened. Maybe it is a defense mechanism or something, I don't know. But it is sad.
Ouch..now that's harsh. FWIW, I'm neither smug, nor superior, nor hard (nor simplistic.) And I'm sorry I make you sad. I have a great deal of compassion, but I think that it's helpful to have a dose of reality and take it from there. Obviously, mothering is very hard work, I acknowledge that and IRL reach out to mamas through LLL and my other mamas groups to do what I can to assist new mamas...I've watched people's babies so they can have a break, I've helped friends through BFing problems and made myself available for 24 hour phone calls for support and advice, I've run errands for new mamas and generally, I'll do anything I can to help and support a new mother.

I'll stand by my frustration about the "choice" issue, though. We're beseiged lately by books, articles, etc about "the awful truth" about being a mother. I celebrate it. Is it hard? OF COURSE IT IS...but it parenting is the path we have chosen. I'm tired of the blame game...the finger pointing and saying "No one warned me!!" I'm not a perfect mother, I'm a work in progress, but I keep things within a certain perspective and I find that helpful. If I have an especially rough day with DS, if he's tantruming like crazy and I'm exhausted b/c I'm 9 months pg, I force myself to take a mental step back, to remember that infancy and childhood are fleeting, and that these toughest of days are ones that I'll look back on wistfully when my kids are off for their first days of school. You can't get them back, and I hate to see people get fogged in with only seeing the trees and not the forest. I honestly believe that happiness and gratitude is a decision. I'm sorry if my viewpoint is unpopular or causes ill will.


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## motocita (Oct 31, 2004)

IMO, both viewpoints are correct:

being a mother is very hard work. some of us were not prepared fully, and we feel frustration. this is totally natural and i believe it happens to most women.

also,

it's very easy to judge others when we don't know the full story. this is also totally natural and it happens before our mind has time to "think" about it.

what we do with our frustration and judgements is up to us. you can't really talk yourself out of a feeling, but you do have control over your actions.

if i were at that meeting, i too would have instantly judged those parents and felt sad for their baby. usually, i don't say much in these types of situations. what i am working toward, is being able to tear down my assumptions by making casual and non-judgemental conversation. not easy to do, but i am working on it.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
I, fortunately, had been a nanny before I got pregnant, so I knew what I was getting into.

I was a nanny, too, for several different families, and that was my biggest downfall in being a mother. I thought that because I had a lot of experience with babies, I was going to handle this mothering thing with ease.

Yeah, right.

I never breastfed the babies I nannied. I never cared for them while in the midst of PPD. I never felt that every decision (EVERY decision) I made while caring for them was going to affect them for life, and negatively, of course! I was not their mother.

I absolutely resented my daughter when I had bleeding wounds on my breasts due to nursing. I absolutely resented my daughter when I was awake for 7th time that night and noticed that the alarm would go off in 45 minutes. Did I love my daughter? With all my heart! Did I sometimes resent her? Yes. Do I still? Occasionally, like when I was holding ice on my cut and bruised lip yesterday from a well-aimed kick in the face. Do I love my daughter? With all my heart. Do I "carry around" resentment? No. It's fleeting. I am a normal momma with normal feelings, and I am able to synthesize them and move on.

When my daughter was 2 months old, I organized a playgroup (the one that turned around and kicked me out a few months ago due to my son's arrival from Ethiopia). You know what the best part of that playgroup was? Being able to sit around and whine and complain about being a new mom. Being with those other moms, who were experiencing what I was experiencing, gave me an opportunity to drop the soft-focus, snuggled-in-bliss Hallmark facade that I felt I had to keep up around others, who positively overflowed with sugary "You must be SO HAPPY!" Uh, yes. I love getting 8 minutes of sleep, having bleeding breasts, cleaning up vomit every single time I feed my child (which is every 20 minutes for 20 minutes, btw). I'M THRILLED!!! THIS IS THE BEST MY LIFE HAS EVER BEEN!

If you never had any of these feelings, even for a second, you are very lucky, but please realize that MOST moms do. And it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with us.

Namaste!


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
I'm thinking that one of the problems we are struggling with is how to encourage a *society* to embrace BFing, cosleeping, and an encouragement of mothers to be with their babies...and how to balance that with acceptance of *individuals* for whom that isn't a desirable choice. Rally against a society that encourages or forces separation of mothers and babes, but embrace those women who want or need that separation. I still try to wrap my mind around it...

This was beautifully said and I think sums up most of the tasks that need doing in our culture. Except that I believe that "parents", not just mothers, should be part of the "being with" and counted in the "separation from".

Because I believe it is healthiest for children when they have fathers that can meet their needs (or in the case of nontraditional families, another parent or caregiver). I think we also need to encourage fathers to spend less time at the office and more time with their children and families. All the educational research suggests that the father's role (not the mother's) determines how well kids do in school:

http://www.ericdigests.org/2004-3/role.html

The other thing that I really liked about the way that you framed this is that I really don't think you can have a world where you encourage certain kinds of parenting practices while simultaneously condemning everything else. I don't have a problem with condemning harmful practices (e.g. spanking), but I think that a range of acceptable options (not just one "way") has to be acknowledged. I think that people learn and grow not by being told what NOT to do (after all, this is one of the underlying principles of gentle discipline), but by being shown all the possible ways that they can meet their children's needs better than what they previously might have been exposed to.

Karla


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

*I really don't think you can have a world where you encourage certain kinds of parenting practices while simultaneously condemning everything else. I don't have a problem with condemning harmful practices (e.g. spanking), but I think that a range of acceptable options (not just one "way") has to be acknowledged.

Karla[/QUOTE]*

I really agree. Especially because I think so many on this board put too little emphasis on what happens after the bf'ing and sling wearing, need for co-sleeping years are gone, which of course happens in the blink of an eye.

One of my SIL is fairly mainstream, no bf'ing, no co-sleeping and yep even the dreaded CIO.

She was not, as she puts it, a 'baby person'.

She left all of her kids with her mom from an early, early age (like a few days with the third.

But she always GD'd and it is her family life that I try to emulate, even more than my very AP SIL (who I do like alot).

But my mainstream SIL is one of the best hands on mama's to any child over the age of eighteen months that you will ever meet.

Her kids are amazing, wonderful and kind. Her family life is joyful, fun, and interesting.

Parenting is a long haul...and I think we need to keep that in mind when making judgments.

And BTY, I could't really bring my colicky baby to a meeting. I did bring her to my first LLL meeting but no one else could hear a thing. The next time I left her with my mom, because I really needed some advice on pumping. The leader was like "Oh you stll should have brought her" and some moms (who were not that meeting where her CIA (or should I say *shrieking* in arms) was non-stop) were aghast, but some of the other moms who survived that first meeting were quick to imply that they was glad I had left her.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Karla, that was really well said.









When I was PG with my first, and immensely excited about the AP lifestyle that I had discovered, I felt like "converting the world" to it's message. Later, I realized that some people in our society just aren't tempermentally cut out to cosleep (for example). I think all couples should give it a try, but hey if it doesn't work for you, and if baby is happy sleeping alone, well why not?? If babywearing is giving you a chronic backache because your baby gained 3x his weight in 4 months, and he's a happy little fellow in his stroller, it's OK - his need for holding and close social interaction can be met in other creative ways when that need is recognized in the first place, kwim?

That's why I agree that "leading by example" is the absolute best way to advocate for AP. We can do that by being "out there" NIP, babywearing, and stating matter-of-factly that "we don't own a crib" when the subject comes up (b/c IME all mothers who chit-chat inevitably get to the questions about sleeping, feeding, etc). What's nice about this approach is it leaves it up to others to ask more questions if they are interested, so it's not preachy or intrusive. While "society" says alot to us about what is acceptable and what isn't, I believe it's ultimately the mothers themselves that shape that. If it works for us and our babies, you can best believe most mamas will take it on if they know about it


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## Deja (Feb 22, 2005)

*it's very easy to judge others when we don't know the full story.*

Reading these words I recall the mother who found it very hard to bond with her newborn baby girl. That baby girl grew up without knowing that her mother had been raped by her aunt's husband, and had gotten pregnant. She didn't know that her mother had relinquished a baby boy, born exactly one year before she was conceived. She didn't know that her mother had WANTED that baby, and how it ate at the mother, wondering whether the baby boy had a good family and was loved and cherished. But back in those days, a child was branded if he was born out of wedlock. That young mother did what she did to give her baby boy the life she thought he deserved.

That seventeen year old mother had relinquished that baby boy without ever holding him, because she said that if she ever put her hands on him, she'd never let him go. When the mother's baby girl was in her arms, the protective mechanisms that she had established with her son were still in place, and she found that she was blocked where this new baby was concerned.

When that mother's baby girl was born, the mother found that she couldn't replace one baby with another, and began to despair, knowing that the emptiness and anguish that she felt would never really go away. At the time, women were told that after relinquishing their babies, in time they would go on as if nothing had ever happened. It was a lie.

This is a true story, a story of two women in my family. The daughter grew up, learned her mother's history in time, and began to understand many things about herself and her mother that had never been clear to her before. The mother loved her daughter, very much. But she had a block that she didn't understand herself, because she tried very hard not to let herself think about her firstborn son and his affect on her life.

Truly you can't judge another woman until you have walked in her shoes.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deja*
*it's very easy to judge others when we don't know the full story.*

... The mother loved her daughter, very much. But she had a block that she didn't understand herself...

Truly you can't judge another woman until you have walked in her shoes.


















Thanks for sharing that, Deja


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I was a nanny, too, for several different families, and that was my biggest downfall in being a mother. I thought that because I had a lot of experience with babies, I was going to handle this mothering thing with ease.

Yeah, right.

I never breastfed the babies I nannied. I never cared for them while in the midst of PPD. I never felt that every decision (EVERY decision) I made while caring for them was going to affect them for life, and negatively, of course! I was not their mother.

I absolutely resented my daughter when I had bleeding wounds on my breasts due to nursing. I absolutely resented my daughter when I was awake for 7th time that night and noticed that the alarm would go off in 45 minutes. Did I love my daughter? With all my heart! Did I sometimes resent her? Yes. Do I still? Occasionally, like when I was holding ice on my cut and bruised lip yesterday from a well-aimed kick in the face. Do I love my daughter? With all my heart. Do I "carry around" resentment? No. It's fleeting. I am a normal momma with normal feelings, and I am able to synthesize them and move on.

When my daughter was 2 months old, I organized a playgroup (the one that turned around and kicked me out a few months ago due to my son's arrival from Ethiopia). You know what the best part of that playgroup was? Being able to sit around and whine and complain about being a new mom. Being with those other moms, who were experiencing what I was experiencing, gave me an opportunity to drop the soft-focus, snuggled-in-bliss Hallmark facade that I felt I had to keep up around others, who positively overflowed with sugary "You must be SO HAPPY!" Uh, yes. I love getting 8 minutes of sleep, having bleeding breasts, cleaning up vomit every single time I feed my child (which is every 20 minutes for 20 minutes, btw). I'M THRILLED!!! THIS IS THE BEST MY LIFE HAS EVER BEEN!

If you never had any of these feelings, even for a second, you are very lucky, but please realize that MOST moms do. And it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with us.

Namaste!

I think you made a really great post.

I know I vented and whined about my dd during her first 2 weeks to someone. Those were hard weeks. I cried a lot. It was stressful and frustrating. I was sleep deprived. I couldn't find time to eat and take a bath and sleep. I remember eating while taking a bath. I had some dark thoughts about my dd and motherhood at times. I felt like a failure because it was hard and I wasn't happy.
I would give a new mother the benefit of the doubt even if they need a whole night away from their baby and complain about diapers and being kept awake all night (and day). Doesn't mean they won't turn out to be a great mom or don't love their baby with all their heart. I would tell the new mom that it is okay if she finds those things hard or unpleasant at first. Things get better.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I've been following along and have noticed that many of us are reacting (possibly) because we can relate to one or both of the 'characters' in the OP.

I know I can really relate to the woman who left her child. I can relate to her because it seems to me that she was reaching out. Why else would she use her time off to go to a Mother's Bible Study, yk?

I can relate to her because my experience with mothers who struggled with motherhood ~ the bitter sweet honesty, the humility, vulnerability ~ is what saved me when I had my child. I honestly believe that *not* talking about this stuff, not reaching out and being honest is what causes so many problems for mothers.

So, I can come to a place of appreciation and admiration for that woman in the OP.

But I can also relate to the OP. I know there are many things that I have a hard time reacting to and that I need to talk about them. One of the things I know from other threads like this is that I don't know what it's like to be marginalized as an AP/NFL parent. I also don't know what it's like to constantly be bombarded with parenting that you feel is harmful.

I know there are things that I've seen that made me want to talk about them. I've wanted to vent, be frustrated, irritated, sad ~ without having to be so clear headed. Sometimes my reaction to something another person does shocks me to the extent that I need a moment to think of *me*.

That said, I, personally, don't feel a public forum and, especially, MDC is the place to vent this stuff. But I have a good support network and outlet to do this stuff in private and my ideals for MCD are different than many members.

So, I've tired to apply the same sort of non-judgment to the people who need to vent here at MDC as I would to the people being judged.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jen123*
I bit my tongue (HARD) standing next to her.


I think most of us have had this kind of situation where we just had a hard time connecting and relating to another person. It's hard.

One thing that helps me is something I read in Mothering. The article was called, "Thank you Janet (probably wrong name) for being my Teacher."

The basic idea is that we can learn quite a bit about ourselves and practice our relating skills quite well with someone we simply don't like, can't relate to or completely disagree with. Keeping this in mine helps me focus when I find myself in the situation you were in.

Seeing these situations as a challenge which we can benefit from, maybe is quite selfish :LOL, but it also really helps shift the focus and can result in a positive outcome.


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