# "Say you're sorry."



## foreverinbluejeans (Jun 21, 2004)

My youngest son works at a grocery store and sees all kinds of examples of bad parenting. He came home and asked me why parents forced their kids to appologize.

I explained to him that when he and his brothers were little and did something "bad" I would appologize for them. They were so strong willed that they would want to say they were sorry themself and not want their mommy to do it for them. I don't think I ever forced them to say I'm sorry. They have grown up to be very polite young adults because they want to be.


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## Mrs. Cheerful Face (Apr 4, 2006)

It seems you're not really asking a question, but I hear this a lot from different families, ie: their "Apology Policy." Every family has one, it just might not be self evident or "enforced." I'm with you though. I don't force small people to do anything. Its so conterproductive I feel. I try hard to model good apologizing for my young people as best I can, so humbling... I think many children haven't seen good apologizing in action, and are unaccustom to that humbling feeling. Practice does help though. What I generally communicate with a young one is the need to apologize and the many forms that can take. You know, can you say you're sorry yourself or do you need help? I think true contrition on a child's part is not always forth coming either. So what if they truely don't feel sorry??? Well empathy and sympathy are learned feelings, and a basic discussion about feelings and encouragement to share feelings is deffinitely a step in the right direction. Two fav. resources include Positive Discipline (has a wonderful section of figuring out what a child is mistakingly trying to communicate) and Non-Violent Comm. Very well known to most and easy to recommend. Its astounding to me how much easier communicating is now that I have young people to humble me...don't get me started on comm. with dp... sheesh!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I hate to get forced apologies. They aren't sorry.

When you force an apology, the child is now embarassed, and probably a little angry. The thing they are apologising for isn't even an issue any more, and they didn't learn anything.

I DO ask if they WANT to say anything. But, if they don't want to, I say "O.K".

If a child hurts someone, I Do expect them to do their best to fix what they have done though. Sometimes that is an "Are you O.K?", or a pat on the back, or an actual sincere "i'm sorry".

Otherwise, I wish the child would just keep it to themselves, rather than force out an apolgy to me or others. It just ends up feeling worse for everybody.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I hate to get forced apologies. They aren't sorry.

When you force an apology, the child is now embarassed, and probably a little angry. The thing they are apologising for isn't even an issue any more, and they didn't learn anything.

I DO ask if they WANT to say anything. But, if they don't want to, I say "O.K".

If a child hurts someone, I Do expect them to do their best to fix what they have done though. Sometimes that is an "Are you O.K?", or a pat on the back, or an actual sincere "i'm sorry".

Otherwise, I wish the child would just keep it to themselves, rather than force out an apolgy to me or others. It just ends up feeling worse for everybody.









:

Apologies are never forced in our house. It just makes the whole thing worse.


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

I agree that forced apologies are not very productive. However, I do try to facilitate admission of fault, forgiveness, and reconciliation.

I also model it (when I do something wrong that requires an apology).


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## robingrant (Dec 28, 2008)

So...my boys are 4 and 6 years old. We have always required them to "make it right" before resuming play when they have done something wrong (ex. hit their brother). If they don't want to apologize, they are then choosing to sit and think about what they've done. We always talk about why an action was "wrong", how it made them feel, and how it made the person they acted against feel. We've found that doing this has led us to have very emotionally intelligent children, who are both extremely compassionate. I don't think this counts as a "forced" apology because they can wait as long as they want to fix it, there are just consequences for waiting (ie. not getting to continue playing). We also ask them "what are you sorry for" so that they can explain to us what they are feeling in their own words - I think this is far more effective them having them parrot a phrase without thinking for themselves!

Btw.... my husband's parents NEVER made him apologize for anything no matter how wrong he was, and they never apologized for anything to him. As an adult, he now acknowledges how hard it is for him to admit that he is wrong, and he really appreciates that we are taking a different approach with our boys.

Also, when we (as parents) screw up, we also will sit down and apologize and talk to the boys about our mistakes. For example, if I feel I've been grumpy or short-tempered with my kids, I will stop myself and sit down with them. I acknowledge that I was short because I'm feeling grumpy and tell them that I am sorry! I think this is so important because I don't want them to grow up thinking that daddy and I are infallible! My six year old is particularly appreciative of this, and I've found him to be quite sensitive when I let him know how I'm feeling "I'm sorry I'm short-tempered... I'm not feeling so good and I shouldn't be short with you - do you ever feel grumpy when you don't feel good?" This has opened the door to many great conversations about how he's feeling and why he acts a certain way in different circumstances...


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robingrant* 
Btw.... my husband's parents NEVER made him apologize for anything no matter how wrong he was, and they never apologized for anything to him. As an adult, he now acknowledges how hard it is for him to admit that he is wrong, and he really appreciates that we are taking a different approach with our boys.

My brother who was forced to apologize growing up finds it very hard to say sorry even when he feels sorry because he has grown to associate it with "I'm not really sorry, but I want you to stop complaining so... yeah, sorry."


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
My brother who was forced to apologize growing up finds it very hard to say sorry even when he feels sorry because he has grown to associate it with "I'm not really sorry, but I want you to stop complaining so... yeah, sorry."

Well, that's too bad. So, he is unable to discern when an apology is warranted?


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## robingrant (Dec 28, 2008)

It's not that he doesn't recognize when he needs to apologize, but he says that he thinks his parents always made him feel like he shouldn't have to say sorry - and the stubbornness that they displayed and supported in him has been hard to overcome.

The reason we discuss the effects of their behavior on others with the boys is so that they can internalize the idea of cause/effect and hopefully grow up realizing that their actions have an impact on the people around them. As I said before, they both are extremely compassionate and definitely have shown genuine remorse without any prompting (ex - wresting this morning my 4 yr old bumped his head - my six year old was not at fault, but definitely showed concern for his brother's bumped head! Since their was no fault, he didn't apologize - but showed compassion. If he had caused the bump, however, I'm pretty sure he would have apologized without prompting because he loved his brother and does not like seeing him in any pain!) If we merely demanded a "sorry" from them when they did something wrong I don't think it would mean anything to them, and they would probably grow up like the above-mentioned brother - saying sorry to appease but not sincerely...


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

We don't force apologies, but encourage them. Because of the way I was raised, I have a personal reluctance to say "I'm sorry." because I'm a little afraid of admitting culpability for my mistakes. My parents were big on covering one's own butt first.... I am ashamed of this reluctance and want my children to have more courage than I do. If they hurt someone else, I want them to take responsibility for it as a matter of course.

I also agree that there is an emotional intelligence issue here. Forced apologies are very uncomfortable, but I believe that sometimes the words "I'm sorry" are just part of appropriate social interactions with others. Just as I think it is appropriate to say "Thanks" sometimes when I don't particularly feel gratitude, I say "Sorry" sometimes when I am at fault even if I don't particularly feel deep remorse.

Is the meaning of the words "I'm sorry" a cultural issue for anyone here? I mean, as I type this, it seems very Canadian....and I have friends from Asian cultures who seem to use the words "I'm sorry" a lot more than I'm used to, even....

A big issue in my house lately is that we apologize if someone is hurt because of something we did, even if we didn't do it on purpose (big nuance here for my 4 yr old to learn)

And I will apologize/ attempt atonement FOR one of my children's actions (to another one of my children or to an outside party) if I feel that an apology is required.

"It looks like X isn't ready to apologize right now, but I am SO sorry that he hit you. Hitting hurts and that wasn't ok. Is there anything I can do to help?" (much attention to the injured party ensuing until reparations seem to have been made.).


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

I think it is literally impossible, to live in the world, and not realize that one's actions/words can have an impact on others.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Nice post, Aubergine68.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
Well, that's too bad. So, he is unable to discern when an apology is warranted?

Um, no... He's unable to see the "I'm sorry" as an acceptable thing. He often choose actions to show he's sorry then words. Unfortunatly many people misconstrue this as being rude or unable to admit he was wrong.

To him "I'm sorry" doesn't mean "I'm sorry". It means "I'm not sorry and I just want you to shut up about it!" because that's what he learned from being forced to apologize. You do it to get others off your back, not because your actually sorry.

That being said, he also has trouble accepting apologies for the same reason. Even if they are genuine, in his mind there's the "training" he recieve that's telling him "Is this person really sorry? Or are they just trying to avoid making amends for what they did."


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
Nice post, Aubergine68.









Oh, that's very kind of you to say -- (sincere) thanks for using your 2000th post to express this opinion...and congrats on hitting the big 2-0-0-0!


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## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

I don't force apologies, but I do try to help my children see when something needs to be fixed. It's probably easier to explain with examples...

DD says DS just ran her over. I cuddle her, etc. DS comes in seemingly ignoring his crying sister; really, though, he already feels so bad he cannot even look at her to see if she's hurt. (I think this is really common in children and often misconstrued as insensitivity.) I say, "DS, your sister might like a cherry stone pillow from the freezer." He dashes off, comes back as her hero, and suddenly is in the "right" and able to say all sorts of sweet words that moments before I could not have "forced" him to say.

Or, DS comes in saying DD has knocked down all his things. DD says he did such and such first. DS says he only did that because she did such and such. I say, "Wow! you're both pretty upset. What would you like to happen?" Usually, not always, they then work it out themselves. Sometimes, it involves me helping to reset the stage for whatever the game was, but most of the time, they would rather just go back to their play after they've cleared the air.

My littlest does not fit in these paradigms. She is about 3.5, and she is still enough part of me that she would much rather feel my love than a sibling's apology. I act as the mediator when she needs it, but in this role, I very carefully am showing her how to help make things right, or how her siblings are trying to make things right by her.

It sort of sounds like no one ever apologizes, and that's not true. However, I actually prefer actions to the meaningless phrase, "I'm sorry." I DO see how it is a social cue, and I have pointed out to my older two when these words would help to smooth things over. It's just that I'd really rather they acknowledge and fix the problem than think these words are the only thing necessary when we've made a mistake.


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

It is true that "I'm sorry" isn't the only or even the best response to a conflict like these.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_mojo* 
I I say, "DS, your sister might like a cherry stone pillow from the freezer." He dashes off, comes back as her hero, and suddenly is in the "right" and able to say all sorts of sweet words that moments before I could not have "forced" him to say.

In our house, if anyone gets hurt, one hears "Do you need a rIce pack?" and the patter of little feet going to the upright freezer to get one out. We made a bunch with the toddlers out of odd socks and rice, while talking about first aid and how cold packs can help all sorts of owies feel better. They are semi-disposable -- if they get bled on they get composted. We need more.

Cherry stone pillows sound like a step up. I am seriously going to save the stones next cherry season and we'll make some more.


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## mama2toomany (Oct 17, 2005)

We don't force it here. But they must here me say Sorry a lot, because my dd says she is sorry to everyone and everything. She bumped into her wipes box the other day and said "Sorry Wipes" lol I must say it a lot.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Um, no... He's unable to see the "I'm sorry" as an acceptable thing. He often choose actions to show he's sorry then words. Unfortunatly many people misconstrue this as being rude or unable to admit he was wrong.

To him "I'm sorry" doesn't mean "I'm sorry". It means "I'm not sorry and I just want you to shut up about it!" because that's what he learned from being forced to apologize. You do it to get others off your back, not because your actually sorry.

That being said, he also has trouble accepting apologies for the same reason. Even if they are genuine, in his mind there's the "training" he recieve that's telling him "Is this person really sorry? Or are they just trying to avoid making amends for what they did."

Learning to vocalize remorse is a part of living in our society. It's courteous to apologize when you've done something wrong to someone; actions should match the sentiment, but in our society (American, that is, for me at least) saying "I'm sorry" seals the deal.

I do tell my daughter to say "sorry," but she is only 2 and is just learning that if you do something you *tell* the person that you feel sorry as well as come give them a big hug and a kiss. All I can tell you is that when she wonks me in the head with a board book, it DOES make me feel better to have her say that she is sorry and come give me a hug.

All the same I'm not going to "shame" my daughter into it or demand an apology in front of people while she squirms. Like most things, there is a middle road here.


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## BaBaBa (Jun 30, 2007)

DD is 2 and I don't force her to apologize.

I prefer to point out what has happen and the consequence.

eg. 'Oh no! You hit DC and hurt him. Now he's sad.'

From the very first time I tried this I could see in her reaction that she didn't like to see the other child hurt and she usually tries to make it better with a pat.

As her understanding grows i've been throwing in questions like 'do you feel sorry for what has happened?' but I really would only prompt it when I'm certain I'll get a 'yes'


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

When my kids were young, I WOULD tell them to go and apologize after I explained what and why they did was unloving. Now they are older (6,7 & 10) and they will say it freely and on their own. If they don't want to apologize, they don't. But most of the times they recognize the consequences and see the response in the other person and they sincerely apologize.

I think its how you use your position of parent, what you model and where you heart is more than whether or not you have some 'apology policy'.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
Learning to vocalize remorse is a part of living in our society. It's courteous to apologize when you've done something wrong to someone; actions should match the sentiment, but in our society (American, that is, for me at least) saying "I'm sorry" seals the deal.

I do tell my daughter to say "sorry," but she is only 2 and is just learning that if you do something you *tell* the person that you feel sorry as well as come give them a big hug and a kiss. All I can tell you is that when she wonks me in the head with a board book, it DOES make me feel better to have her say that she is sorry and come give me a hug.

All the same I'm not going to "shame" my daughter into it or demand an apology in front of people while she squirms. Like most things, there is a middle road here.

But why force it, if in the end it will make them uncomfortable or feel like they are not really verbalizing their feelings?

We don't force apologies because we want her to understand that "I'm sorry" should actually mean you are sorry.

Someone telling me they are sorry when they aren't doesn't make me feel better. It just makes me feel uncomfortable.


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## yoginisarah (Dec 20, 2007)

We just say "Oliver, is there something you'd like to say to your sister/friend/etc?" He's only a little over 2 so he doesn't really get it but usually says it. I always apologize to the person though to set an example and because I am truly sorry that he/she got hurt.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i don't force apologies, but my kids are really good about apologizing now. my son sometimes needs a little more time to cool down, but he will always make-up with me and say sorry once he's had time to calm down and process it. my dh used to try and force apologies. he doesn't anymore though. he now recognizes a genuine apology is heartfelt & sincere. i think forcing an apology misses out on the opportunity of being able to process what happened and feeling remorse over it, and then being able to make amends for it. to force "sorry" creates a power struggle and a diversion from the reason behind the apology needed to begin with (imho). honestly, i think some adults have pride issues with saying "sorry" because they never learned how. i would rather a genuine apology any day over someone saying it because they "had to". when my kids were smaller, i always apologized on their behalf if necessary though.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Someone telling me they are sorry when they aren't doesn't make me feel better. It just makes me feel uncomfortable.

Someone NOT saying they are sorry when they are clearly in the wrong pisses me off. I'd rather have them fake remorse than not even bother to fake it. Obviously, true remorse is best (and I am not saying that fake remorse isn't also insulting), but sometimes you gotta fake it until you make it, ya know?

My concern for my kids is that not only do they learn core ethics about respectful treatment of others, but they also learn societal expectations and rules so that their actions won't be misinterpreted.

Now, of course the apology is not the end of the matter. As PPs have pointed out, if the apology is the "get out of jail card" then clearly, it is a pointless exercise. Remorse without restitution is meaningless. And restitution requires empathy.

So a big part of any apology has to be a method of attempting to make things right - a hug or an ice pack are great. Sometimes the restitution IS the apology - but I find that words are useful because they are more easily understood.

And of course, different ages are capable of different levels of empathy - and different children are capable of different levels of empathy as well. When I tell my 3 year old to apologize and to find a way to make it better, I am not expecting that he has the empathy to truly be remorseful right now, but I am trying to build up good habits so that when he does make an error in the future, he knows that he needs to express remorse, and then find a way to make it better.

And instructing a child to apologize does not need to be shameful - we often role play different interactions during quiet times so that my kids have words to use in emotionally charged situations - like when another child has hurt them and refuses to stop, or when my kids realize they have hurt someone.

Also as pp's have mentioned, dh and I model apologies with our kids and with other adults. So they see it as a normal form of human interaction. I do prompt them for an apology and make a recommendation for restitution as appropriate, just as I prompt them to use their tissue and not their sleeve, or to use please and thank you.

My 2 cents.

ETA: one element in my approach is the fact that my oldest has not great social skills - it takes him a looooooooonnnnnnnnggggg time to pick up on social mores that other children his age notice easily. So with him, we need to be a lot more explicit about social expectations because he just won't pick them up on his own - at least not until it is too late and he has lost friends. My second son absorbs social rules from the air, I swear. I don't need to be so explicit with him because he can watch the other person's face and body language and figure out what to say/do to make them happy.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robingrant* 
Btw.... my husband's parents NEVER made him apologize for anything no matter how wrong he was, and they never apologized for anything to him. As an adult, he now acknowledges how hard it is for him to admit that he is wrong, and he really appreciates that we are taking a different approach with our boys.


i really think the issue here is that his parents never modeled it for him. parents need to be comfortable saying "i'm sorry", "i was wrong". "i made a mistake". and they need to know how to ask for forgiveness. it's so important to model this behavior.

also, not forcing an apology doesn't mean ignoring the issue that took place. it just means you can discuss what happened openly & definitely express parental perspective of what happened (my kids still have logical consequences for ill behavior, yk?). but if your child doesn't want to make amends through an apology, you simply don't force them too.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aubergine68* 







Oh, that's very kind of you to say -- (sincere) thanks for using your 2000th post to express this opinion...and congrats on hitting the big 2-0-0-0!

I meant it!

I didn't realize I had reached the 2000....







:


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Um, no... He's unable to see the "I'm sorry" as an acceptable thing. He often choose actions to show he's sorry then words. Unfortunatly many people misconstrue this as being rude or unable to admit he was wrong.

To him "I'm sorry" doesn't mean "I'm sorry". It means "I'm not sorry and I just want you to shut up about it!" because that's what he learned from being forced to apologize. You do it to get others off your back, not because your actually sorry.

That being said, he also has trouble accepting apologies for the same reason. Even if they are genuine, in his mind there's the "training" he recieve that's telling him "Is this person really sorry? Or are they just trying to avoid making amends for what they did."

What actions? Yes, it is rude not to verbally admit when you are wrong.

Seriously, I can't imagine being so traumatized by a forced apology in childhood, as to not understand, as an adult, that saying "I'm sorry" can ACTUALLY mean, "I'm sorry".


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
What actions? Yes, it is rude not to verbally admit when you are wrong.

Seriously, I can't imagine being so traumatized by a forced apology in childhood, as to not understand, as an adult, that saying "I'm sorry" can ACTUALLY mean, "I'm sorry".

What do you mean what actions? Actions that make it better, or show he didn't mean it/regrets it.

If you're made to say "I'm sorry" because "It's the polite thing to do". Then you learn you only say it to be polite...







.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

I mean, what actions?

I think that people are smarter than dogs, so I don't buy into the whole "training" diatribe.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
I mean, what actions?

I think that people are smarter than dogs, so I don't buy into the whole "training" diatribe.

It's the same idea behind parents passing on bigoted ideas. It's what the kid sees and experiences most of the time so that's how they interpret. It's not a particularly complex idea.

If you accidentally wack someone on the head with a book are you just going to sit there saying "I'm really sorry, I didn't mean to"?


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
It's the same idea behind parents passing on bigoted ideas. It's what the kid sees and experiences most of the time so that's how they interpret. It's not a particularly complex idea.

If you accidentally wack someone on the head with a book are you just going to sit there saying "I'm really sorry, I didn't mean to"?

No, it's not complex, at all.

But, yeah, if I accidentally hit someone, I will say, I'm sorry. I guess I'm missing your point?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
No, it's not complex, at all.

But, yeah, if I accidentally hit someone, I will say, I'm sorry. I guess I'm missing your point?

Do you _only_ say your sorry? Or do you actually try to help them out?

I'd rather have the help and not the apology then the apology and not the help.


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## midnightwriter (Jan 1, 2009)

I never force my kids to apologise. I don't believe there's any value to it. True apologies come from within.


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## columbusmomma (Oct 31, 2006)

I just found this thread! Will have to go back and read thru everything. I was just having a discussion about apologizing and what that means. While I apologize, I do not "make" my children do so. I want to set an example by showing that if I've made a mistake I will apologize and to demonstrate that concept further, I will verbally explain why I was wrong. I want my children to pick up on this!


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## MamieCole (Jun 1, 2007)

Well, I guess I am one of those people who force my own expectations of behavior onto my children, because when they do something that hurts others I ask them to apologize in some form and model it for them if they are unable or unwilling to do so at the moment, depending upon their age. The person who was hurt/interrupted/whatever deserves the respect of an acknowledgement.

It might not "mean" anything to a two year old, but if I waited until he was old enough to fully understand a concept before introducing it then he'd be missing out on most of his life experiences at this point. I don't demand my DS say "I'm sorry," and wait as long as it takes to force him to do so, but I DO say things like "Uh oh...did you just hit your sister? That's not a very kind thing to do and that hurts her. Can you please tell her you are sorry or give her a hug to make her feel better?" If he does, great. If not, a seed has been planted: Your actions hurt someone, it made them feel bad, you should attempt to make them feel better with words or actions because it is the kind and human thing to do.

Heck, we just got back from visiting my dad who has dogs...DS was petting a dog and then decided to whack her on the head. I told him that it was not ok to hit her because it hurts her and makes her feel sad. I then asked him to please give her a hug or say he is sorry for hitting her. Left to his own choices it probably would not occur to him to even stop hitting the dog, most less realize it hurts her or apologize for his actions. Which is why, as the adult, I feel it is my job to guide him and teach him during those moments until he is capable of doing so on his own.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't think force apology and bad parenting go hand in hand. Apology policies are personal choices parents make for personal reasons. I don't personally believe in forced apology though I do believe in apologizing for dd and modeling manners in general. I don't think it is bad parenting to push a child to apologize though. I have also talked to her about why we apologize and now that she is older I prompt her to find a way to make amends. When I think of bad parenting I think of people who deliberately hurt their child in some way, not people who try to teach their child manners.


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Do you think opinions on this probably boil down to those who are more "consensual living" and those who are not so much so? I mean, so much of what I've read about non-hierarchical child raising seems to involve allowing the child to express themselves as they please, and only interfering if harm will ensue- with the idea that if they are allowed to express what they feel, it won't be repressed and come back to bite them in the butt later.

I guess I can see some of that, but I also think young kids are actively looking for a role model, a guide. I am acutely sensing that life is a dance between expansion and contraction, from the breathing of our lungs and beating of our hearts to the clenching and relaxing of our muscles when we are tense... I see the principle of expansion and contraction happening continuously in relationships, and my kids emotionally contract into themselves when there is tension and need some help expanding back out into the realm of "others"; they are self-conscious and very aware of the feelings they have which prompted them to commit a rude or hurtful act, and are still processing those feelings; and yet, they have "others-consciousness" that the other person is feeling offended and they want to create a bridge back to fellowship. I definately prompt them to create that bridge with the words "I'm sorry", but I don't force the timing. I feel that if they are not ready to reach out to others and form that bridge- they are not ready to resume interacting because they have not finished the contraction aspect and are still needing to experience themselves more fully before they are ready to continue experiencing, or interacting with, others.

One thing I love is when someone in the family gets hurt accidentally with no one "at fault", the children imitate my example and will come up and say "I'm sorry!", to express a sympathy that someone is hurting. It feels so comforting to have a 2 yr old come up to you and say "I'm sorry" when you've stubbed your toe!


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## kathrineg (Jan 28, 2009)

I teach "I'm sorry" in the same way I teach "please" and "thank you" and "excuse me". It's a basic social behavior that keeps people from alienating each other.

In my opinion it is an issue of manners, and generally doesn't take the place of empathy or kindness.

EDIT: but of course it's more a manner of modeling and practicing and reminding than it is of shaming or "forcing".


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## kathrineg (Jan 28, 2009)

"I'd rather have the help and not the apology then the apology and not the help. "

I don't see it as an either/or situation.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

I can't really say I force ds to apologize. He's strong willed and generally reacts terribly to being forced to do anything. But I do make it clear that he has done something to hurt someone else, that it wasn't right and I apologize on his behalf. I make it a habit of apologizing when I do something hurtful accidentally or even on purpose. And I notice these days that he will apologize to his little brother with no prompting from me and even do things to try to fix the situation. In this case, I have to agree with some pp, modeling is the best way to go at it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Someone telling me they are sorry when they aren't doesn't make me feel better. It just makes me feel uncomfortable.

Me, too. I've been on the receiving end of way too many of those.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
Someone NOT saying they are sorry when they are clearly in the wrong pisses me off. I'd rather have them fake remorse than not even bother to fake it.

Different strokes. If someone wrongs me, that's bad enough. When they think it can all be smoothed over with a facile social lie? Even worse. I don't see it as "not even bothering to fake" remorse. I see it as being honest. Why on earth would I want someone to lie to me? If you wronged me, and don't feel bad about it, then don't pretend you do. Faking it is just an attempt to "get out of jail free", imo.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
Seriously, I can't imagine being so traumatized by a forced apology in childhood, as to not understand, as an adult, that saying "I'm sorry" can ACTUALLY mean, "I'm sorry".

hmm....I know that saying "I'm sorry" _can_ mean "I'm sorry". That doesn't mean I assume that it _does_. The words are pretty meaningless to me, really. I never assume they're sincere, or not sincere. It really depends on my gut feeling about the person who's apologizing.

Apologies are a complicated mess around here. When ds2 hurts someone (he does that a lot), he always wants to hug and kiss and apologize. He feels terrible when he finally understands that he hurt someone (physically or emotionally). Sometimes, he tries to do something else (aside from hugs/kisses) to make it better...getting a gift or bringing food or something. DD, otoh, almost never apologizes. She has a huge thing about it, and gets _really_ embarrassed and stressed out over it...and she doesn't accept apologies well, either. When ds2 apologizes to her, she usually gets into a huff. She'd rather he not apologize, but I don't want to teach him _not_ to say "I'm sorry". It's really all just a PITA, and it's really hard to navigate.


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Quote:

If someone wrongs me, that's bad enough. When they think it can all be smoothed over with a facile social lie? Even worse. I don't see it as "not even bothering to fake" remorse. I see it as being honest. Why on earth would I want someone to lie to me? If you wronged me, and don't feel bad about it, then don't pretend you do. Faking it is just an attempt to "get out of jail free", imo.
On the flip side, I've been in situations where someone has been rude or offensive, then a little while later is sugar sweet and acts like no unpleasantness has ever ocurred. I always feel VERY confused- what are their true intentions towards me? Do they think their behaviour was ok?

I guess I'm the kind of person who WANTS to like people, who wants to assume they are basically good and well meaning, and I'm very easy to forgive and forget. Why would you want a person to "stay in jail?" Even if they don't regret what they did or they excuse it as having a bad day, isn't it nice that they in some way acknowledge it sucked for you, on the receiving end?


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## boigrrrlwonder (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I hate to get forced apologies. They aren't sorry.

When you force an apology, the child is now embarassed, and probably a little angry.

In context of "say you're sorry," I don't understand how it's coercive or encourags the child to be embarrassed or angry. I tell my two year old to say she's sorry after we've talked about her behavior, because my two year old honestly has no idea of how to make restitution. She needs help. Telling her a way to do it (saying she's sorry) is a way to teach her. It's never been a power struggle. Ever. I just ask that she does it, and she generally does.


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## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

I hate it when parents force their kids to apologize to me. It's such an awkward situation. The kid is angry and miserable and embarrassed, and half the time doesn't feel they have done anything wrong anyway.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Haven't read the replies.

Most of the time my kids are pretty quick to apologize, but if for some reason they don't, I will suggest that they go check in on the child that is hurt/upset, see if they are okay. If they refuse they refuse, and if need be I apologize for them.


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## Paeta16 (Jul 24, 2007)

I have explained to my 2 y.o. that we say "I'm sorry" when we hurt someone. I have also explained my reasoning over and over (typical with this age). SO if she has hurt someone either accidentally or purposefully (by hitting) then I sit with her once again to say "what do we say when we hurt someone?" and she will usually look at the person and say "I'm sorry." On her own she'll usually give them a hug or a kiss (depending who it is). I think it is okay to teach kids about WHY and HOW to apologize. I don't think it does any good to say "Say you're sorry!" because then they truly aren't sorry IMO. It has to be genuine.


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## seriosa (Apr 2, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathrineg* 
I teach "I'm sorry" in the same way I teach "please" and "thank you" and "excuse me". It's a basic social behavior that keeps people from alienating each other.

In my opinion it is an issue of manners, and generally doesn't take the place of empathy or kindness.
.

This. A non sincere apology is better than no apology at all because at least you acknowledge that according social conventions you are in the wrong.

Manners are a form of language. We live in comunities and need common behavioural instruments to interact peaceably and effectively. These can be sincere, or perfunctory, or even manipulative but IMO we need to experience all types to be able to detect the differences when confronted with them and lets face it, also to be able to use them with expedience when dealing with the world.

Also, if I tell my child it is right to say sorry (I mean by this an apology in any form, verbal or symbolic, but recognisable as such) even if he doesn't feel sorry, I am teaching him that the world does not revolve around his feelings, but that feelings of others must also be taken into consideration. Then of course we should also get to why he doesn't feel sorry.

Example - just recently a kid told my son "whack me on head with that umbrella". My son did so, the other kid burst out crying, saying "I was only joking, couldn't you tell". So I requested my son to say sorry for hurting. I wanted him to do so straight away to soothe the hurt kid's feelings. Then after that he and I discussed the epsiode. He had no remorse, and I agree he owed none. But he did owe a social apology for the unintended result of the interaction.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpeppers* 
I hate it when parents force their kids to apologize to me. It's such an awkward situation. The kid is angry and miserable and embarrassed, and half the time doesn't feel they have done anything wrong anyway.

I agree- it makes me uncomfortable. I hate hearing the words without the feeling behind them- it grates on my nerves. We don't force verbal apologies but rather try to foster empathy and restitution in whatever way helps wronged child feel better.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

ugh my mom used to force me to apologize and i hated it. esp. when it was to her or my brother. i didnt want to say it .. i am sure i would have if she had given me a chance to calm down but since she didnt i used to always think or mumble a 'not' as in 'im not sorry'

i am a chronic apologizer.. i say it before i speak. "i'm sorry but..." and i dont know if i have ever felt someone was sincere when they apologized to me. i take it at face value when dp apologized b/c me not feeling like he means it is not his fault. i still hate apologies..i try to make things right i hurt someone or something but the words are basically meaningless to me.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I just had to update because I found myself on the other side of this just the other day.

We were at a post Little League gathering, and ds1 was running around with a group of boys. At one point I became aware of some sort of disagreement, and as I walked towards them I heard another mom tell one of the boys to give my ds his ball back (I guess this kid had taken it from my ds and had refused to give it back when ds asked). The kid gives my ds his ball back, and then my ds punches him in the chest as he turns to walk away! The kid started crying, but my ds was so angry at him that he didn't care (I guess the whole ball thing had been going on awhile). I told ds he better go back up there and apologize, which he did, and I checked in to make sure the kid was okay. (I also then made my ds come sit down with me while he cooled off and we talked about what had happened.)

But for all my "we don't force apologies" talk, at that moment it just came out - there was nothing okay about him walking away without saying anything, and what he had done most certainly required an apology. (Plus, the other mom had just intervened on behalf of my son, so I was feeling some parental peer pressure to do the same.)


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

I force apologies. Yep, I do.









To me, teaching my children to think about what they did to harm another person, then teaching them to understand how that person feels, and then finally apologizing not only teaches societal norms but EMPATHY. Lots of kids seem to be lacking empathy. It's the ability to put yourselves in another's shoes and feel the pain you may have caused them.

If my child can acknowledge that she did wrong and hurt someone, but consistently cannot say a simple "I'm sorry", then she is not learning empathy, in my opinion. She is only learning that whether or not she hurts someone, she doesn't have to really feel bad about it. That is SO not okay with me.

I was raised in a forced apology family too, and I have no problem meaning I'm sorry when I say I'm sorry.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
Someone NOT saying they are sorry when they are clearly in the wrong pisses me off. I'd rather have them fake remorse than not even bother to fake it. Obviously, true remorse is best (and I am not saying that fake remorse isn't also insulting), but sometimes you gotta fake it until you make it, ya know?

And not saying you're sorry can destroy relationships, too. Can you (not you siobhang, but anyone) imagine being on the should-be receiving end of an apology? Being totally hurt by someone and never hearing them EVER tell you they are sorry? Their lack of concern for you is not just rude, it is sometimes devastating.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Do you _only_ say your sorry? Or do you actually try to help them out?

Why not BOTH?

Quote:

I'd rather have the help and not the apology then the apology and not the help.
Okay, let's see. I accidentally trip over my son while carrying the baby and step on son's foot. I bend down, tell him "I am SO sorry. I didn't even see you there, sweetie!" Then I help him back up. Now, would it be the same if I just look down at him, help him up and rub his hair?

Or what about the time I plowed into someone at the grocery store with my cart, because I wasn't paying attention. What would go over better? "I'm so sorry! It was all my fault! Are you okay?" or a shamed smile, a shrug, bending over to pick up whatever groceries I may have spilled from their cart, then walking on.

I'm sorry says A LOT. And you know what? Even if it has to be forced, even if the one saying it doesn't really mean it, at that point it should still be said for the benefit of the injured party, just so the hurt person isn't left feeling as though he or she doesn't even matter.


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## Mama.Pajama (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamieCole* 
It might not "mean" anything to a two year old, but if I waited until he was old enough to fully understand a concept before introducing it then he'd be missing out on most of his life experiences at this point.
<snip>
...Which is why, as the adult, I feel it is my job to guide him and teach him during those moments until he is capable of doing so on his own.

These statements are valid points. I feel that it is my duty as a parent to model moral responsibility and to demonstrate the consequences of one's actions/inactions, i.e. that what we do and say directly/indirectly impacts others (empathetic responsibility). I won't be humiliating my child, but I will be demonstrating respect. I don't see myself coercing my son to "say you're sorry", but I do see myself explaining the _significance_ of empathy and acknowledgment of our wrongdoings: it's important to me that my child learns by example to "own" what we do and to acknowledge those affected by what we've done, and try our best to make it right.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I don't think force apology and bad parenting go hand in hand. Apology policies are personal choices parents make for personal reasons. I don't personally believe in forced apology though I do believe in apologizing for dd and modeling manners in general.
<snip>
When I think of bad parenting I think of people who deliberately hurt their child in some way, not people who try to teach their child manners.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathrineg* 
I teach "I'm sorry" in the same way I teach "please" and "thank you" and "excuse me". It's a basic social behavior that keeps people from alienating each other.

In my opinion it is an issue of manners, and generally doesn't take the place of empathy or kindness.

EDIT: but of course it's more a manner of modeling and practicing and reminding than it is of shaming or "forcing".

I agree with this perspective. Politeness is the product of respect and courtesy. I have taught my 20 month old to say "thank you" and "please", knowing that he doesn't understand the gravity of the words he is saying, just like I teach him the names of the animals in our books and the letters of the alphabet, or what "jumping" or "tickling" mean. He connects the word to the image or action, and that is totally age appropriate. When he is older and has more life experience he will connect deeper meanings and concepts to words. Until then, I do feel that teaching him to correlate when and why we say "please" and "thank you" is warranted.
Example-
DS is tugging at my shirt and poking my chest, yelling "THAT!" (If you didn't guess, he's wanting to nurse







)
My response: "Can you say, 'Milk, please'?"
His response: "Milk, please!" with a big smile.

I think this is totally appropriate.

I do think manners are important, when they are based on the foundations of respect, not coercion: I suppose it all comes down to the parents' attitude about manners. Is it just something you say because you're supposed to, or do you say it because you genuinely respect other human beings? You must employ these concepts while teaching your child or he will only see politeness as a superficial practice. There are two very different ways parents can model manners, and I think that there are two very different outcomes: one is the child who says "sorry" because if he doesn't he will be punished in some way, and the other is the child who says "sorry" because he genuinely feels bad for doing something that has had negative effect upon another person!


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## Shannie77 (Jan 16, 2007)

My DD just turned 2 and she uses please and thank you appropriately all the time. I taught her by telling her that saying "please, makes me happy to do X for you". She caught on pretty quick. That seemed like the best explanation. And then thank you was "you can say thank you when X makes you happy". Now she is starting to say your welcome.

With sorry, I model it a lot. I say sorry to her multiple times/ day. If she does something that hurts me or my feelings, I let her know and say tell her that "sorry" makes me feel better. In the last week she has said it on her own , along with a kiss and hug after losing her temper or accidentally hurting me. My goal is for her to know when she should say sorry (or use other manners), without too much prompting or reminding.

I am not sure if this is the "right" way but it seems to be working.

I am another person who was forced to say sorry. I say it constantly now, but it always makes me feel very shameful when I do (for lack of a better word).


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## Danesmama (Dec 15, 2001)

I have my children apologize. I don't "force" my children to apologize - there is no strong arming. I think letting your child not apologize is letting them feel that their actions are OK, when they are not. I do try to explain to my children why they are apologizing and teach them empathy (although empathy seems like an uphill battle at times).

I also very openly apologize to my children when I've done something wrong. There is no modeling that when you apologize you are admitting that you are "bad", but that you are actually concerned for the other person's feelings and welfare. I apologized just yesterday to all of my boys because I was being really short with them.

For some people it seems like being forced to apologize is tantamount to saying that you are "bad". I like to teach my guys that just because you had a moment of temper or made a bad choice does not mean you are a bad person and you can make up for it by saying you're sorry.


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

I "force" apologies too and I don't think it's "bad parenting" (per the OP). I imagine I am more strict than a lot of parents on MDC. I don't care if my kids don't "want" to say they are sorry! It's not about how they feel and what makes them uncomfortable, it's about how the kid who was wronged feels. And that child deserves an apology. If my kids are going to have a problem with it then they shouldn't have wronged the other child in the first place. Now, I don't grab ds up by the arm, parade him over to the other child, give him a shake, and demand in a loud voice that he apologize. I pull him aside, privately and sternly explain what was wrong and tell him that he needs to go apologize to the child that he hurt.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
On the flip side, I've been in situations where someone has been rude or offensive, then a little while later is sugar sweet and acts like no unpleasantness has ever ocurred. I always feel VERY confused- what are their true intentions towards me? Do they think their behaviour was ok?

How is that the flip side? That's exactly what the insincere apologizers do, too. They say "I'm sorry", even though they're not, then continue on as if it never happened. "I'm sorry" isn't magic. It's words.

Quote:

I guess I'm the kind of person who WANTS to like people, who wants to assume they are basically good and well meaning, and I'm very easy to forgive and forget. Why would you want a person to "stay in jail?" Even if they don't regret what they did or they excuse it as having a bad day, isn't it nice that they in some way acknowledge it sucked for you, on the receiving end?
No. It's not. They didn't. They said something they know they're required to say, and they don't give a crap that it sucked for me. I don't see anything nice about it. It's not about wanting them to "stay in jail". It just gets old watching people go through life treating other people like crap, and getting away with it over and over, because they say "I'm sorry" at the drop of a hat.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
It's not about how they feel and what makes them uncomfortable, it's about how the kid who was wronged feels.

As the kid who was wronged - frequently - I'd suggest you figure out how that kid feels. Being picked on and bullied felt like crap. Getting an apology that I knew full well the kid was only coming out with because he _had_ to felt _worse_. The whole "it's about the other person" thing is a crock. People want their child to do the "right" thing, no matter how crappy it makes someone else feel. But, let's be honest, and stop pretending it's about empathy or making the other person feel better. It's not. It's about fulfilling a social convention, whereby the offense mysteriously disappears once the magic formula is uttered.

This topic has come up here before. Every time, I mention how crappy it felt/feels to get a forced apology. Every time, people basically say, "oh, well - that's too bad, but my child is going to do it, anyway".


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danesmama* 
I think letting your child not apologize is letting them feel that their actions are OK, when they are not.

And, making them apologize teaches them that it's okay to be mean, as long as you say "I'm sorry".

You know...dd almost never says "I'm sorry". She'll run away crying, and be miserable for hours over this issue. However, once it's explained to her that her actions hurt someone, she generally doesn't do it again, and she does try to make it up to the person in some other way. DS2 will apologize at the drop of a hat...but he'll also repeat the offense 10 seconds later.


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
As the kid who was wronged - frequently - I'd suggest you figure out how that kid feels. Being picked on and bullied felt like crap. Getting an apology that I knew full well the kid was only coming out with because he _had_ to felt _worse_. The whole "it's about the other person" thing is a crock. People want their child to do the "right" thing, no matter how crappy it makes someone else feel. But, let's be honest, and stop pretending it's about empathy or making the other person feel better. It's not. It's about fulfilling a social convention, whereby the offense mysteriously disappears once the magic formula is uttered.

This topic has come up here before. Every time, I mention how crappy it felt/feels to get a forced apology. Every time, people basically say, "oh, well - that's too bad, but my child is going to do it, anyway".

I wholeheartedly disagree and given that I was an overweight, uncoordinated, low-income child, I am no stranger to being made fun of or bullied. Our experiences are different, our opinions are different, and my children will continue to apologize when they hurt someone. I believe that apologizing when you hurt someone is the right thing to do, period. And IMO it is not OK not to apologize because you don't want to or it makes you feel embarrassed.


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## Danesmama (Dec 15, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
And, making them apologize teaches them that it's okay to be mean, as long as you say "I'm sorry".

You know...dd almost never says "I'm sorry". She'll run away crying, and be miserable for hours over this issue. However, once it's explained to her that her actions hurt someone, she generally doesn't do it again, and she does try to make it up to the person in some other way. DS2 will apologize at the drop of a hat...but he'll also repeat the offense 10 seconds later.

One of the lessons in my house is that saying you're sorry means that you shouldn't repeat the offense. Now I know that my sons generally do repeat offenses, but I know a lot of children who need to learn by repetition.

I think that you are oversimplifying Storm Bride. I don't just make my kids say that they're sorry and then that's it. Saying you're sorry is not a panacea. We talk about what went wrong, why you should not do that and discuss how the other child felt.

We live in a civilized society where certain behaviors are expected, such as saying "please", "thank you" and "I'm sorry". If you just gloss over when you did something wrong because at the time of the action you are still angry and don't feel like apologizing, well I think that you do the other person a disservice even if you try to make it up in other ways later. So, like StrawberryFields I have my children apologize.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
I wholeheartedly disagree and given that I was an overweight, uncoordinated, low-income child, I am no stranger to being made fun of or bullied. Our experiences are different, our opinions are different, and my children will continue to apologize when they hurt someone. I believe that apologizing when you hurt someone is the right thing to do, period. And IMO it is not OK not to apologize because you don't want to or it makes you feel embarrassed.

Fine. But, don't pretend that it's about the other person's feelings, because you have no idea how they feel about it. You want your child to know the social conventions - fine. That doesn't mean it always makes the other person feel better. In all honesty, I've been surprised by the number of people on MDC who say they feel better when they receive insincere apologies. I've met very few people irl who _like_ to receive them, and quite a few who feel the same way I do about them. Most people I've talked to about it don't really care one way or the other, but of the rest, more of them dislike receiving them than like receiving them.

Okay - so it's not OK not to apologize. Do you have any suggestions for someone like my dd? I'd like her to learn to use those words, simply because I know that some people attach importance to them. However, I don't see how standing there, holding her arm, and going, "say you're sorry", while she cries her eyes out and/or screams is going to make anybody feel any better. I'm really kind of lost as to how anybody _makes_ someone else say something, anyway.

(I'm also confused as to how it would make anybody feel better to have ds2 wallop them, say "I'm sorry" and then wallop them again a few minutes later. His pattern, not dd's, is the one that concerns me, because it's highly reminiscent of emotionally abusive adults. I really have to work to remember that he's still very little, and his belief that saying "I'm sorry" means "I can do this again any time I want to" is probably a maturity thing, not a sign that he's going to be abusive or something...)


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## Danesmama (Dec 15, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Okay - so it's not OK not to apologize. Do you have any suggestions for someone like my dd? I'd like her to learn to use those words, simply because I know that some people attach importance to them. However, I don't see how standing there, holding her arm, and going, "say you're sorry", while she cries her eyes out and/or screams is going to make anybody feel any better. I'm really kind of lost as to how anybody _makes_ someone else say something, anyway.

(I'm also confused as to how it would make anybody feel better to have ds2 wallop them, say "I'm sorry" and then wallop them again a few minutes later. His pattern, not dd's, is the one that concerns me, because it's highly reminiscent of emotionally abusive adults. I really have to work to remember that he's still very little, and his belief that saying "I'm sorry" means "I can do this again any time I want to" is probably a maturity thing, not a sign that he's going to be abusive or something...)

I do not hold my child by the arm and insist that he apologize as he wails and refuses. Rather, I explain to him how the other child felt, give him a few different ways to approach the problem in the future that would not hurt the other child and then ask if he is ready to apologize.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danesmama* 
One of the lessons in my house is that saying you're sorry means that you shouldn't repeat the offense. Now I know that my sons generally do repeat offenses, but I know a lot of children who need to learn by repetition.

We talk about not repeating the offense all the time. DS2 isn't learning it. He's learned "I'm sorry". Obviously, not repeating the offense is _not_ "part" of saying "I'm sorry". They're two different things. Ideally, they should be taught/learned together, but one is not part of the other. Saying "I'm sorry" is words. Avoiding repeating the offense is an action (or lack thereof, depending how you look at it.)

Quote:

I think that you are oversimplifying Storm Bride. I don't just make my kids say that they're sorry and then that's it. Saying you're sorry is not a panacea.
We're talking about making kids _say_ "I'm sorry". People here on this thread have said they don't care if it's sincere or not. The other issues you raise are separate.

Quote:

We talk about what went wrong, why you should not do that and discuss how the other child felt.
So do we. What does that have to do with making (how do you do that, anyway??) a child say "I'm sorry"?

Quote:

We live in a civilized society where certain behaviors are expected, such as saying "please", "thank you" and "I'm sorry". If you just gloss over when you did something wrong because at the time of the action you are still angry and don't feel like apologizing, well I think that you do the other person a disservice even if you try to make it up in other ways later.
If someone is too angry to give me a sincere apology, I don't find the offer of a socially required fake one to worth anything. I honestly can't see how a forced, angry apology avoid doing a "disservice". Apologize later, when you actually feel sorry...or you can lie. Lying is the socially acceptable thing to do, of course, but that doesn't mean that everybody likes it.

Quote:

So, like StrawberryFields I have my children apologize.
I am still interested in what you do if they won't. I mean, how do you make someone apologize? (I know at least one kid who apologized to me did so, because he was going to be suspended if he didn't, and another because he was going to be spanked if he didn't, but I don't know how it would work in a GD family.)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danesmama* 
I do not hold my child by the arm and insist that he apologize as he wails and refuses. Rather, I explain to him how the other child felt, give him a few different ways to approach the problem in the future that would not hurt the other child and then ask if he is ready to apologize.

I never said you, or anybody else here, did. That is what _I_ would have to do, in order to "make" dd apologize. I've done all the things you mention here. She won't say it.


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## dido1 (Aug 12, 2004)

I haven't read all the responses, however, as the parent of a non-apologizer (he gets really embarrased and mad when he knows he had done something wrong and retreats), I can appreciate both sides of the apology debate. I appreciate the importance of expressing regret at an action that causes hurt to someone else, but I also really cannot stand apologies served up by people who've learned that is what they need to do to get out of a situation and get on with what they want to do. I would MUCH rather have a person not repeat an offense than commit the offence over and over and simply say "sorry" each time.

In our family, one set of parents strictly enforce apologies from their small children, with the best of intentions, but do little to correct the repeatative behaviour that requires an apology. Whereas, we don't enforce apologies, but we DO enforce gentle behaviour. For example, if my son hits someone, he knows he will get removed from the situation. His cousins hit and attack freely, are forced to apologize but then quickly return to the hitting and attacking. I'd rather they not hit than apologize each time they do so.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dido1* 
In our family, one set of parents strictly enforce apologies from their small children, with the best of intentions, but do little to correct the repeatative behaviour that requires an apology. Whereas, we don't enforce apologies, but we DO enforce gentle behaviour. For example, if my son hits someone, he knows he will get removed from the situation. His cousins hit and attack freely, are forced to apologize but then quickly return to the hitting and attacking. I'd rather they not hit than apologize each time they do so.

We have three sets. One works on the behaviour, with less emphasis on the apologies. One works on the apologies with less (no?) emphasis on the behaviour. The other...doesn't really work on either. *sigh*


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Fine. But, don't pretend that it's about the other person's feelings, because you have no idea how they feel about it. You want your child to know the social conventions - fine.

Likewise, StormBride, you shouldn't act as though you know the feelings of the person doing the apologizing. In many instances they may VERY WELL be truly sorry. Just because they commit the same offense again doesn't make them less sorry. Heaven knows I have yelled at my children more than once, and apologized and asked their forgiveness more than once - and I meant it EVERY SINGLE TIME.

In my opinion, it's just as unfair to judge which apologies you think are sincere or insincere as it is for me to judge whether or not you're really hurt by what I did or not.

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Okay - so it's not OK not to apologize. Do you have any suggestions for someone like my dd? I'd like her to learn to use those words, simply because I know that some people attach importance to them. However, I don't see how standing there, holding her arm, and going, "say you're sorry", while she cries her eyes out and/or screams is going to make anybody feel any better. I'm really kind of lost as to how anybody _makes_ someone else say something, anyway.
I don't do that - did anyone say they did that? I usually pull the offender aside, explain what happened, how that felt to the person wronged, help them see how their actions or words caused hurt, then ask them to apologize. My kids are always very humble and very sincere in doing so.

I'm sorry you were bullied, by the way.


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
Likewise, StormBride, you shouldn't act as though you know the feelings of the person doing the apologizing. In many instances they may VERY WELL be truly sorry.

I very much agree with you, Sancta. Just because my ds is required to apologize does not mean that he is not sincere, or that we do not also focus on empathy and future behavior. We certainly do not allow him to cheerfully yell "SORRY!" and go right back to misbehaving.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
I usually pull the offender aside, explain what happened, how that felt to the person wronged, help them see how their actions or words caused hurt, then ask them to apologize. My kids are always very humble and very sincere in doing so.

Agreed. As I said before:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
Now, I don't grab ds up by the arm, parade him over to the other child, give him a shake, and demand in a loud voice that he apologize. I pull him aside, privately and sternly explain what was wrong and tell him that he needs to go apologize to the child that he hurt.

As a child care provider, I have dealt with two children who had problems apologizing. One starts crying when they have wronged or hurt someone and the other sits still as a rock and closes down--but neither will apologize. Like my own children, I take them aside and speak with them about what went wrong and how the other person feels. I request that they go apologize. If they continue to refuse, they are removed from the situation or activity. When they decide to make the apology, they are welcomed to rejoin the other children.

We also talk a LOT about feelings during our daily activities so that they gain an understanding of what kind of impact their actions might have on another person.


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## Carley (Aug 16, 2005)

Whoa! This is a pretty heated "debate" on apologizing!







Storm Bride I think you need to say you're sorry!









I also talk to my daughter immediately post offense & explain why what she did was wrong. We have explained and continue to explain the idea of "I'm sorry" to her e.g.

It means you understand your action hurt someone, even if it was an accident

It's nice to say and can help them feel better

It lets them know that you don't want to hurt them anymore

Now my daughter, more often than not, offers and apology and a hug when someone is wronged. e.g. "I'm sorry I yelled at you mama, I'll talk nicer" "Oops! I'm sorry I didn't mean to step on you (dog)!"

Nobody is forcing a screaming kid to say "I'm sorry." Teaching kids to say "I'm sorry" is no different than teaching them to say "Hello" and "Goodbye." They're cultural customs. If you think they're strange or unatainable you should visit the Middle East! There's some polite kids for you!

Storm Bride, you said ""I'm sorry" isn't magic. It's words." So are the harsh words of bullies. Words matter. One can take someone down with verbal arrows or heal open wounds with apologies.

Apologies are like a band aid. They don't make the owie go away, but they're a means towards healing. Children need to be taught basic communication and thoughtful gestures. They don't come built in. They're culturally ingrained.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
Likewise, StormBride, you shouldn't act as though you know the feelings of the person doing the apologizing. In many instances they may VERY WELL be truly sorry. Just because they commit the same offense again doesn't make them less sorry. Heaven knows I have yelled at my children more than once, and apologized and asked their forgiveness more than once - and I meant it EVERY SINGLE TIME.

I happen to be talking about people who I know, for a fact, were forced to apologize (overheard it in some cases, flat-out asked in a couple of others). I don't usually jump to conclusions about that. I just don't think "I'm sorry" means anything, in and of itself.

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In my opinion, it's just as unfair to judge which apologies you think are sincere or insincere as it is for me to judge whether or not you're really hurt by what I did or not.
I know for a fact that they weren't sincere. My only point is that saying you have to apologize for the sake of the other person's feelings is based on jumping to conclusions.

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I don't do that - did anyone say they did that? I usually pull the offender aside, explain what happened, how that felt to the person wronged, help them see how their actions or words caused hurt, then ask them to apologize. My kids are always very humble and very sincere in doing so.
As I already posted, I never said that anybody here does that. It's what I would have to do, in order to make dd's behaviour "acceptable" or "OK".

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I'm sorry you were bullied, by the way.
Thank you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
As a child care provider, I have dealt with two children who had problems apologizing. One starts crying when they have wronged or hurt someone and the other sits still as a rock and closes down--but neither will apologize. Like my own children, I take them aside and speak with them about what went wrong and how the other person feels. I request that they go apologize. If they continue to refuse, they are removed from the situation or activity. When they decide to make the apology, they are welcomed to rejoin the other children.

We also talk a LOT about feelings during our daily activities so that they gain an understanding of what kind of impact their actions might have on another person.

So, they're removed. They still haven't apologized. What exactly has been accomplished? I only ask, because this is similar to how I've handled things with dd, and I think it's making her _more_ resistant to apologizing to people. She already knows she's done something wrong, and being talked to about it gets her more worked up.

We talk about feelings all the time around here. In the heat of the moment, she doesn't care and/or is incapable of coping with it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carley* 
I also talk to my daughter immediately post offense & explain why what she did was wrong. We have explained and continue to explain the idea of "I'm sorry" to her e.g.

It means you understand your action hurt someone, even if it was an accident

It's nice to say and can help them feel better

It lets them know that you don't want to hurt them anymore

Well, this is problematic to me, because I don't believe it means any of those things. It means you've been trained to say "I'm sorry". That's what this whole thread is about, after all....being required to say "I'm sorry".

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Now my daughter, more often than not, offers and apology and a hug when someone is wronged. e.g. "I'm sorry I yelled at you mama, I'll talk nicer" "Oops! I'm sorry I didn't mean to step on you (dog)!"
Yeah - that's ds2, as well.

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Nobody is forcing a screaming kid to say "I'm sorry."
I've been talking about forced apologies, and the _requirement_ to say "I'm sorry". If a child is screaming, and an apology is required, how do you solve this?

I'm still very confused as to how one can _require_ a child to say "I'm sorry". I don't really get why one would do it, anyway...but I really don't see _how_. When I bring up the fact that dd would be freaking, everyone says, "we're not saying to hold a screaming kid by the arm"...but that's what happens if I try to require apologies. I'm not talking about your kids, or accusing anyone - I'm talking about _my_ kid.

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Teaching kids to say "I'm sorry" is no different than teaching them to say "Hello" and "Goodbye."
So - do you think it's about the other person's feelings, or not? Every time we have one of these threads, people are arguing both points - that it's about the hurt person's feelings, _and_ that it's a superficial social custom, all at once.

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Storm Bride, you said ""I'm sorry" isn't magic. It's words." So are the harsh words of bullies. Words matter. One can take someone down with verbal arrows or heal open wounds with apologies.
I've been taken down by plenty of verbal arrows. I've had _one_ wound healed by an apology - and that was one of dozens, if not hundred, and was over 10 years after the injury itself. The thing is...those guys had actually thought about how they'd treated me, and what they'd put me through...and they felt bad. They didn't have a teacher mandating an apology from on high.

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Apologies are like a band aid. They don't make the owie go away, but they're a means towards healing.
Maybe for you. They're meaningless to me. They've never done anything to promote healing. People attempting to make amends is a means towards healing. Saying "I'm sorry" isn't making amends.

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Children need to be taught basic communication and thoughtful gestures. They don't come built in. They're culturally ingrained.
I don't think "I'm sorry" is a thoughtful gesture, and the fact that people are required to say it is part of what I'm talking about. If a child is required to say "I'm sorry" every time he/she commits an offense, then it's not thoughtful - it's trained in. "If I don't say 'I'm sorry', I don't get to play, anymore, so I better say it" is not rooted in thoughtfulness. It's rooted in being required to behave in a certain way.


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
So, they're removed. They still haven't apologized. What exactly has been accomplished? I only ask, because this is similar to how I've handled things with dd, and I think it's making her _more_ resistant to apologizing to people. She already knows she's done something wrong, and being talked to about it gets her more worked up.

We talk about feelings all the time around here. In the heat of the moment, she doesn't care and/or is incapable of coping with it.

IMO, the removal of the child who is not in control of his/her emotions is exactly what has been accomplished. When you have a group of children, and one is hitting/hurting/taking away toys/etc., and then freaks out when called out on it, the children being wronged deserve to have that child calmed down and/or removed. And the emotional child deserves to be removed as well until he/she is able to have some space, regroup, and make the apology.

I completely understand how talking and talking about something gets a child more worked up and more resistant. I'm not a "talker" during very emotional outbursts. IME it makes the situation worse. We are very calm and matter of fact. I remove, I ask them (quietly) to get in control of their body/emotions, and come back to me when they are ready to apologize. Every child is different, but it has always worked for me.

If we were in public and ds was refusing to apologize to a stranger (playground, zoo, etc) and was out of control with his emotions I would have no choice but to apologize for him and leave. I would let him know ahead of time that if he wasn't able to calm down and apologize we would have to leave and let him make the decision. Luckily it has never happened, he has always chosen to make the apology.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
IMO, the removal of the child who is not in control of his/her emotions is exactly what has been accomplished. When you have a group of children, and one is hitting/hurting/taking away toys/etc., and then freaks out when called out on it, the children being wronged deserve to have that child calmed down and/or removed. And the emotional child deserves to be removed as well until he/she is able to have some space, regroup, and make the apology.

I can see that in a group. OTOH, what about a kid like ds2, who will very sweetly say, "I'm sorry", and give the person a hug...and be smacking them or throwing something at them again 5 minutes later. (He thinks it's funny.)

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I completely understand how talking and talking about something gets a child more worked up and more resistant. I'm not a "talker" during very emotional outbursts. IME it makes the situation worse. We are very calm and matter of fact. I remove, I ask them (quietly) to get in control of their body/emotions, and come back to me when they are ready to apologize. Every child is different, but it has always worked for me.

If we were in public and ds was refusing to apologize to a stranger (playground, zoo, etc) and was out of control with his emotions I would have no choice but to apologize for him and leave. I would let him know ahead of time that if he wasn't able to calm down and apologize we would have to leave and let him make the decision. Luckily it has never happened, he has always chosen to make the apology.
DD hasn't. I think she's made the apology _once_. DS2 has missed out on a few things because of it, too.

I still have trouble seeing the value in it, though...


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## Carley (Aug 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 

I'm sorry you were bullied, by the way.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

Thank you.









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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I wondered if anyone would jump on that... *sigh*


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## eloise24 (Nov 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
I think it is literally impossible, to live in the world, and not realize that one's actions/words can have an impact on others.

Um, many, many people live this way though. They may *know* deep in their heads that their actions impact others but they live as though they don't, or they don't care. Unfortunately knowing is only half the battle.

Anyway, the way we do things with our boys (group home) is similar to many of you- we encourage apologies, talk about how important it is to make things right (whether with the other boys or to the adult the disrespect was directed toward) but we don't force them. As we all know, a forced apology is meaningless.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Okay, here's what I'm thinking you're trying to say, Storm Bride.

Brian hits James. Mom says, "Say you're sorry." Brian says, "I'm sorry James." A bit later Brian kicks James. Mom says, "Say you're sorry." Brian says, "I'm sorry James." etc.....it goes on.

If this is what you mean, then I agree with you that I'm sorry means nothing. It's a forced response. Brian is learning nothing other than when you hurt someone you have to say those words, then you get to continue with the behavior.

BUT - read what you say here:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
The thing is...*those guys had actually thought about how they'd treated me, and what they'd put me through...and they felt bad*. They didn't have a teacher mandating an apology from on high.

What we do (parents who "force" apologies) is exactly this. We don't just stand there like Brian's Mom, forcing the words to be said just because. And quite honestly, the whole socially acceptable mandate thing isn't why I force apologies either. I do it because kids are still in their learning, formative periods and what I help them learn now they will hopefully have with them later. And what am I trying to teach them? Empathy.

SO, if Brother hits Sister, I don't just rattle off "Say I'm sorry." I pull him aside and talk to him. "Did you hit her? WHY did you hit her? She's crying now - you hurt her. Do you know that you hurt her? How do you feel about that? What if she would have hit you - would you have liked that? Wouldn't you have been sad too? Now she doesn't want to play with you because you hurt her." So what I'm doing is helping him think about what he did to he hurt her, and how she is hurting. What he put her through. The thing is if I'm not there helping my toddler how to figure this out, he won't do it himself.

Then, after he thinks about all this and realizes what he's done, and agrees that he caused her pain and wouldn't want the pain to have been caused to him, comes the "Don't you think you need to tell her you're sorry?" And he tells her he's sorry. And he doesn't repeat the behavior for a long time, because he understands.

The problem for me is that if you DON'T help them through this and coach them to think about their behavior and apologize, then you may have lost a valuable teaching moment, because kids aren't going to sit in their rooms at night and think about the day's events and remember every time they may have hurt someone. An adult can do that, but kids don't. (That's the same reason we immediately dole out consequences for bad actions because if we wait even a few hours they don't remember what they did wrong anymore! They can't see the connection.)

Anyway, all this said, I'm only trying to teach empathy by those words. I want my kids to understand two things.

1. That when they hurt someone, they need to understand HOW they hurt that person and realize that another person has been injured by THEIR behavior

2. That when they have been hurt, if someone offers apology and tries to change their ways that forgiveness is a noble thing as well.

That's it. Does this make sense?


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
SO, if Brother hits Sister, I don't just rattle off "Say I'm sorry." I pull him aside and talk to him. "Did you hit her? WHY did you hit her? She's crying now - you hurt her. Do you know that you hurt her? How do you feel about that? What if she would have hit you - would you have liked that? Wouldn't you have been sad too? Now she doesn't want to play with you because you hurt her." So what I'm doing is helping him think about what he did to he hurt her, and how she is hurting. What he put her through. The thing is if I'm not there helping my toddler how to figure this out, he won't do it himself.

Then, after he thinks about all this and realizes what he's done, and agrees that he caused her pain and wouldn't want the pain to have been caused to him, comes the "Don't you think you need to tell her you're sorry?" And he tells her he's sorry. And he doesn't repeat the behavior for a long time, because he understands.

The problem for me is that if you DON'T help them through this and coach them to think about their behavior and apologize, then you may have lost a valuable teaching moment, because kids aren't going to sit in their rooms at night and think about the day's events and remember every time they may have hurt someone. An adult can do that, but kids don't. (That's the same reason we immediately dole out consequences for bad actions because if we wait even a few hours they don't remember what they did wrong anymore! They can't see the connection.)

Anyway, all this said, I'm only trying to teach empathy by those words. I want my kids to understand two things.

1. That when they hurt someone, they need to understand HOW they hurt that person and realize that another person has been injured by THEIR behavior

2. That when they have been hurt, if someone offers apology and tries to change their ways that forgiveness is a noble thing as well.

That's it. Does this make sense?

I totally agree with this, this is exactly how I approach apologies with my kids as well.

Storm Bride, you clearly had some negative experiences in the past with people offering insincere apologies after they had wronged you. I can certainly understand how that would color your opinion on this matter. However I think you're possibly being a bit unfair in assuming that everyone else is somehow also being insincere or encouraging a lack of sincerity by requiring an apology from their children.

The word sorry may mean nothing to you, but please don't deny that it can and often does mean a great deal to others. When I and many others say we are sorry, we use it to acknowledge that we wronged that person and to also let him or her know that we have remorse for our actions. I'm sorry is shorthand for that longer message much like thank you is shorthand for "I greatly appreciate your time, effort and kindness and want to acknowledge that to you directly." I'm sure there are some folks out there who take issue with others not using the longer and more verbose statement over the shorter thank you, but it would be similarly unfair for someone with this opinion to assume that anyone else who crosses his path would know not to say thank you and use the longer expression of gratitude instead.


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## jlovesl (Dec 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2toomany* 
We don't force it here. But they must here me say Sorry a lot, because my dd says she is sorry to everyone and everything. She bumped into her wipes box the other day and said "Sorry Wipes" lol I must say it a lot.

That is soo cute.
I think sorry is a word that is used very loosely now a days. I had a 4 year old cousin whose Mother took him to a wedding. He went up to the bride and told her she was ugly(??? for whatever reason). My Aunt told him to say sorry immediately, so in response he said" I'M SORRY YOUR UGLY". It was soooo funny. Wrong but funny!
But are there really not times when a person does something and they are not sorry? Although it hurt someone else they just are not SORRY!!!!!Why is that not ok? I once told a woman to go to hell and die? Am I sorry NO!!!!! Still feel that way and don't care that it hurt her feelings. I'm just not sure that you always have to be remorseful for how you truly feel.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
Okay, here's what I'm thinking you're trying to say, Storm Bride.

Brian hits James. Mom says, "Say you're sorry." Brian says, "I'm sorry James." A bit later Brian kicks James. Mom says, "Say you're sorry." Brian says, "I'm sorry James." etc.....it goes on.

If this is what you mean, then I agree with you that I'm sorry means nothing. It's a forced response. Brian is learning nothing other than when you hurt someone you have to say those words, then you get to continue with the behavior.

BUT - read what you say here:

What we do (parents who "force" apologies) is exactly this. We don't just stand there like Brian's Mom, forcing the words to be said just because. And quite honestly, the whole socially acceptable mandate thing isn't why I force apologies either. I do it because kids are still in their learning, formative periods and what I help them learn now they will hopefully have with them later. And what am I trying to teach them? Empathy.

SO, if Brother hits Sister, I don't just rattle off "Say I'm sorry." I pull him aside and talk to him. "Did you hit her? WHY did you hit her? She's crying now - you hurt her. Do you know that you hurt her? How do you feel about that? What if she would have hit you - would you have liked that? Wouldn't you have been sad too? Now she doesn't want to play with you because you hurt her." So what I'm doing is helping him think about what he did to he hurt her, and how she is hurting. What he put her through. The thing is if I'm not there helping my toddler how to figure this out, he won't do it himself.

Then, after he thinks about all this and realizes what he's done, and agrees that he caused her pain and wouldn't want the pain to have been caused to him, comes the "Don't you think you need to tell her you're sorry?" And he tells her he's sorry. And he doesn't repeat the behavior for a long time, because he understands.

The problem for me is that if you DON'T help them through this and coach them to think about their behavior and apologize, then you may have lost a valuable teaching moment, because kids aren't going to sit in their rooms at night and think about the day's events and remember every time they may have hurt someone. An adult can do that, but kids don't. (That's the same reason we immediately dole out consequences for bad actions because if we wait even a few hours they don't remember what they did wrong anymore! They can't see the connection.)

Anyway, all this said, I'm only trying to teach empathy by those words. I want my kids to understand two things.

1. That when they hurt someone, they need to understand HOW they hurt that person and realize that another person has been injured by THEIR behavior

2. That when they have been hurt, if someone offers apology and tries to change their ways that forgiveness is a noble thing as well.

That's it. Does this make sense?

Sure, it makes sense. I just don't see what "I'm sorry" has to do with it. As I said, dd is the one who just won't say it (I think she's said it _once_), but she's also the one who will feel terrible, for a long time, about hurting someone. She gets really mad or whatever, but once she calms down, she really thinks about it, and realizes someone was hurt. DS2 will say "I'm sorry" at the drop of a hat, including a hug and kiss, most of the time. But, it doesn't sink in, and so far, at least, he's probably the least empathetic of my kids...the most likely to say sorry, but the least likely to actually be upset about or relate to the fact that he hurt someone.

And...dd doesn't accept apologies very well, either. They make her mad. What I find with her is that when someone is forced to apologize to her, it's usually too soon, and she's nowhere near ready to hear it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lolagirl* 
I totally agree with this, this is exactly how I approach apologies with my kids as well.

Storm Bride, you clearly had some negative experiences in the past with people offering insincere apologies after they had wronged you. I can certainly understand how that would color your opinion on this matter. However I think you're possibly being a bit unfair in assuming that everyone else is somehow also being insincere or encouraging a lack of sincerity by requiring an apology from their children.

I do not understand how anybody can _require_ a sincere apology. If children are being required to apologize, then they're not being required to have empathy - they're being required to _say_ "I'm sorry". Teaching kids about empathy and requiring them to say "I'm sorry" are two different things.

Quote:

The word sorry may mean nothing to you, but please don't deny that it can and often does mean a great deal to others. When I and many others say we are sorry, we use it to acknowledge that we wronged that person and to also let him or her know that we have remorse for our actions.
Fine. That's what it means to you, and to many others. But, what it actually _means_ is "I've been taught to say this".

Quote:

I'm sorry is shorthand for that longer message much like thank you is shorthand for "I greatly appreciate your time, effort and kindness and want to acknowledge that to you directly."
Yeah, well, lots of people say "thank you" without appreciating anything, too, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Quote:

I'm sure there are some folks out there who take issue with others not using the longer and more verbose statement over the shorter thank you, but it would be similarly unfair for someone with this opinion to assume that anyone else who crosses his path would know not to say thank you and use the longer expression of gratitude instead.
I don't care what words people use - long or short is irrelevant to me. If you say "thank you" or "I greatly appreciate your time, effort and kindness and want to acknowledge that to you directly" and then make it clear through your actions that you don't appreciate what I did at all, then...so what? Likewise, if someone doesn't say anything, but their actions tell me that they appreciate what I did, that's wonderful.

Talk is cheap. On these boards, thread after thread after thread about teaching children to use particular words pops up. Children are required to say "please", "thank you" and "I'm sorry". The argument is that these words are important, because they demonstrate respect, appreciation, remorse, etc. But, they don't. They mean "I was taught (required) to say this". In some cases, they mean more than that...but they have almost no inherent meaning at all.


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## Carley (Aug 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I do not understand how anybody can _require_ a sincere apology. If children are being required to apologize, then they're not being required to have empathy - they're being required to _say_ "I'm sorry". Teaching kids about empathy and requiring them to say "I'm sorry" are two different things.

Children are required to say "please", "thank you" and "I'm sorry". The argument is that these words are important, because they demonstrate respect, appreciation, remorse, etc. But, they don't. They mean "I was taught (required) to say this". In some cases, they mean more than that...but they have almost no inherent meaning at all.

Teaching kids words, encouraging/prompting/forcing them to say them and teaching them what they mean in context are _not_ different things.

Children can be taught to say something AND taught what it means at the same time e.g. "Hello" "Goodbye" "Please" "Thank you" "I'm sorry" "Excuse me" "I want some fish" "I love you" whatever. As they learn and practice IN CONTEXT they learn the bigger meanings.

They learn to say "I want some fish please" in order to be polite when they want some fish. They learn to say "Bye mom" instead of "Goodbye," reflecting the impact practice and encouragement have on understanding language. They learn to say "I need space" when they need space.

They also understand "USE YOUR WORDS" If I didn't teach my kid whining and crying wasn't acceptable and she must use her words to be polite and understood then she'd probably be whining & crying for everything.

Even BABIES can be taught words and their meanings at the same time, hence sign language is so popular. At first the signs might mean "I was taught (required) to say this" _under these circumstances_ but as they practice they learn the bigger meaning. A

s they get older we have them say "Hungry" instead of a sign. The bright ones know when to say it from the practice they had when they were babies. "When I'm hungry and I say "Hungry" like Mommy tells me I get food." It's the same as "When I hit someone and I say "I'm sorry" like Mommy tells me my friends feel better."

If I hadn't taught my daughter "I want that" vs. "I want that please" and what it meant she would never say it and have very few friends at the park. Instead I made her say it in context and now she clearly knows what it means AND that it is polite. She understands complex concepts and learns quickly. I suppose my child is just more brilliant than yours









Part of learning anything is doing it. When I took German and Spanish I was prompted to recite words and phrases and as I did I learned what they meant and how the words could be used in various scenarios. I was forced at times to speak even though it was uncomfortable for me and I didn't fully grasp the expansive definitions of various contexts. The continuous repetition and practice in various contexts made me a fluent speaker. Learning how words can be used takes repetition and being taught by someone who knows better.

When my daughter hurts anyone, including me, she offers and apology and a hug NOT because she memorized a word, but because she was taught what it means, *when to say it in context* and, consequently, understands it makes the other person she hurt feel better. She knows this concept because she's been _prompted AND taught_ in context as she was developing

You seem toootally bitter and angry about teaching children common courtesy. I don't get it, but we're all free to have our own opinions and baggage. You are totally free to have completely rude children who have no idea how to be social with the rest of the Western world. It's clear none of our opinions matter to you. I hope your kids aren't terribly confused as to why other children get upset when they take their toy & other parents are put off by their lack of manners.

When I was a teen I was fat AND in special education. I know _all_ about teasing. It's not nice, and neither is not receiving or offering an apology. I conciously choose to let that baggage go so I can teach my daughter how to be nice and polite


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Talk is cheap. On these boards, thread after thread after thread about teaching children to use particular words pops up. Children are required to say "please", "thank you" and "I'm sorry". The argument is that these words are important, because they demonstrate respect, appreciation, remorse, etc. But, they don't. They mean "I was taught (required) to say this". In some cases, they mean more than that...but they have almost no inherent meaning at all.

Okay, let me ask you this. What if your kids never, ever, EVER told you they loved you? Ever. What if your hubby or SO never told you? Maybe they showed it by their actions, but they refused (or were too embarrassed) to ever verbalize it. You could tell them you loved them over and over, but they would never, ever, ever return the words.

Could you handle NEVER hearing it from them? Just asking, because those are "just words" too....


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
Okay, let me ask you this. What if your kids never, ever, EVER told you they loved you? Ever. What if your hubby or SO never told you? Maybe they showed it by their actions, but they refused (or were too embarrassed) to ever verbalize it. You could tell them you loved them over and over, but they would never, ever, ever return the words.

Could you handle NEVER hearing it from them? Just asking, because those are "just words" too....

I don't know. They say it. OTOH, my ex said it way more than dh does - and it infuriated me. Meaningless noise.

It's nice to hear "I love you", but it doesn't really mean that much. DS2 gives me incredibly nice cuddles, and I'd rather have those than the words. DH? DH doesn't say it that much, and I rarely even think about it.

So - I like hearing it, but...yeah, I think I could handle never hearing it. I know dh loves me, and I know the kids love me...and I know they could _say_ they love me, no matter what they were really feeling.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Carley...on my way out the door, but will try to remember to address your post later. However, you seem to have jumped to some conclusions. I don't have the greatest manners in some ways, because I'm very social phobic, and it throws me into a very antisocial state in company a lot of the time. However, I _was_ taught all the common courtesies, and my evil grandmother was all about how rude people were if they didn't use the magic formulas.

As for my kid? DS1 is _very_ polite, and very socially adept. I've received multiple compliments on how polite he is, and I can't think of anyone, adult or peer, who has ever met him who didn't like him. His manners are exceptionally good, and when I once thanked him for behaving so well at a really, really, really long and boring funeral, he told me that he "had to be quiet, out of respect for Uncle A". So...yeah...you can jump to whatever conclusions you want about me and my family. I won't force my children to say things they don't mean, but that doesn't mean I'm raising rude kids with no idea how to behave.


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## jlovesl (Dec 19, 2008)

[
*She understands complex concepts and learns quickly. I suppose my child is just more brilliant than yours







*

I think this statement lacks ALL kinds of manners. You don't have to have a brilliant child to have a polite child. I think some kids can say their sorry without any words at all. My son has not said he loves me( he's only 22 months) but I get random hugs and kisses and those are more special to me than any words he has to say. And if he accidentally hurts me he doesn't say "sorry" he kisses where he hurt me. Because he does not say, please thank you or sorry does not mean he is not brilliant. He just has other ways of communicating his feelings.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

huh interesting. (truly no argumentative tone here)

it never even occurred to me that some parents do not guide their children to apologize, or do not expect it in some cases.

i always lumped it in with please and thank you. 'you bumped timmy, what do you say?"

i teach dd that way b/c i know that she is a very interactive and verbal child. she is catching on. when she tugs my hair too hard or uses her new teeth (HOLY COWS) she already goes 'mum ta' (not sure what the ta means exactly, but the tone is obviously apologetic ha!")

i suppose if the situation contained elements of a shy, small child and a stranger, i might just apologize for the child.

now i wonder if those few times where i observed a kid not apologize were simply a parental difference.









mdc is so cool!


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

I expect my kids to apologize however I do not always expect the words, "I'm sorry"
In my home our rule is "You make amends"
On a recent trip to Boston my DS was very rude to my friend who was riding shot gun.
I did not say anything at the exact moment that he was being rude b/c he would have been embarassed to have me talk to him in front of everyone in the car(it was 2 families in the car)
So when we stopped at the rest stop I talked gently to my son about his tone and gave him 3 choices of making amends.
Since he gets self conscious talking he chose the option of giving handshake. Which was his, "I'm sorry" an outstretched hand.

With other kids, though, I think the actual words, "I'm sorry" or an, "Are you ok?" are better. Kids don't often appreciate the handshake


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foreverinbluejeans* 
My youngest son works at a grocery store and sees all kinds of examples of bad parenting. He came home and asked me why parents forced their kids to appologize.


There are soooo many things that fall into the umbrella of bad parenting but the sole action of forcing/asking children to apologize hardly fits into it at all.

I just don't understand how this little snippet seen at the grocery store can actually make you have a good judgment of how bad or good a parent is.


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## Carley (Aug 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlovesl* 
[
*She understands complex concepts and learns quickly. I suppose my child is just more brilliant than yours







*

I think this statement lacks ALL kinds of manners.


That was tooooooooootally a joke


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I do not understand how anybody can _require_ a sincere apology. If children are being required to apologize, then they're not being required to have empathy - they're being required to _say_ "I'm sorry". Teaching kids about empathy and requiring them to say "I'm sorry" are two different things.


I agree. I simply cannot force my DS to "feel" sorry for something. If I feel bad about something that he's done, I tell them I'm sorry that he did that. This frequently prompts him to apologize. But apologies are not required.

Maybe he isn't ready (if you aren't ready to apologize, it's simply an exercise in obedience and submission to force someone to apologize) to apologize yet... maybe he will never be truly sorry (I've done things that hurt other people's feelings which to this day I do not feel sorry for). That's OK.

I think forcing someone to apologize, so that the other person can hear it, gets dangerously close to giving my DS responsibility for someone else's feelings. And, that's a responsibility he should not have (and neither should any of us).


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 







:

Apologies are never forced in our house. It just makes the whole thing worse.

I agree. Anytime we're at a playdate and the Mama "makes" the child say sorry, I never know what to say? Most times, I do say something like, "DS is okay! You were both just playing and got excited! It happens!" If it is something that has been done on purpose, I generally feel really awkward and will smile and say, "DS appreciates that" or something like that.I just never know how to deal with it.

My DH apologizes for everything, and it drives me batty. I tell him he put the printer paper in the wrong spot (I was looking for it), he apologizes. I tell him I called him while I was at work, and he says sorry. He messes up and I'm mad, he says sorry. Problem is, he apologizes for everything, so when I really need him to apologize because the situation actually warrants it, I don't believe him.

It falls into the same category as please and thank you for me- say it if you mean it, and if not, I don't want to hear it


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## ExuberantDaffodil (May 22, 2005)

we practice "make amends" and saying we're sorry/appologising in our family. If my son says something hurtful or bumps into someone, he needs to say "excuse me" or "I'm sorry" out of politeness, just like I expect him to say "please" when he would like something and "thank you" when he receives it. Now if his "I'm sorry" doesn't come out in a genuine way, I ask that me make amends in other ways. If he said something hurtful, he needs to say something kind. If he bumped someone or hit someone [in the family], he needs to give them a hug. Sometimes he is better at showing he is sorry rather than saying he is sorry. My son is very good at telling when he needs to genuinely say he's sorry on his own at this point. I wouldn't say I FORCE apologies, but I do expect that he act politely after a moment requiring an apology.


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## Carley (Aug 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
My DH apologizes for everything, and it drives me batty. I tell him he put the printer paper in the wrong spot (I was looking for it), he apologizes. I tell him I called him while I was at work, and he says sorry. He messes up and I'm mad, he says sorry.

Problem is, he apologizes for everything, so when I really need him to apologize because the situation actually warrants it, I don't believe him.









So wait... you don't like it when your husband apologizes when he feels he messed up, and then you don't believe him when he apologizes when you both feel he did something wrong?









Mindbending!

ETA you know how to remedy this situation? Force him to apologize







then he'll only apologize when you want him to and never when he means it!


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