# The last straw... withholding heat in a cold winter



## Felicitymom (Jul 28, 2004)

I have had issues with my 'friend' for a while now. The short back story is that my dd and another little girl Natalie became friends in preschool. They were two peas in a pod and really loved each other. Natalie's mom and I have many things in common and always have lots to chat about. I really thought this could be the beginning of a long friendship. It has proven otherwise.

I am all for parents parenting their children how they see fit. Whether to parent AP, or feed sugar, or play with plastic, or not... really every family situation is so dynamic and we are all living in this blended world... live and let live is a good way I view the world.

Okay so I think this mother has extreme practices.... An example of this is that her children can not keep gifts, they can only have old worn toys (books and a few toys are okay, but nothing plastic or nice), they eat very traditionally (whole foods in the vein of Nourishing Traditions) which is fine, but I really can't see why MORE food isn't available. Her children are all rail thin and whenever they came to my house they would eat as much as I could give them (of a similar variety as their mom provides). This screams bad parenting to me, but I don't say anything because it is really none of my bussiness. Also, one child can not have a playdate or parkdate without the other... and mom is always making sure that when 'friends' are mentioned that both girls say their sister is their 'best friend'. There are more examples, but you get the idea.

So this winter when I went over for the only playdate we had with Natalie in many months the mom explained to me that they are not heating their house because... hmmm, well the only reason she gave is that they didn't want to spend the x number of dollars on the heater. Now we live in the SW and so it isin't a brutal freezing winter, but regularly drops below 35 at night. Isn't this going waaaay tooooo far? When I got there one of her rail thin girls was huddled next to the space heater in bare feet on the concrete floor....

by the way, both parents have advanced degrees and both parents work for the major employer in town and I know they are not rich, but um... isn't this going too far?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Felicitymom*
> 
> Her children are all rail thin and whenever they came to my house they would eat as much as I could give them (of a similar variety as their mom provides). This screams bad parenting to me,
> 
> ...


mama you have some issues with this mom. i think because of your issues perhaps this is clouding how you look at this family.

yes the mom goes to extremes. but you are implying neglect. that can be v. dangerous.

from what little you have written - no i dont find it neglectful. however it depends on how the kids are. if they are old enough to clothe themselves then they could easily grab socks and grab a jacket which it seems they dont want to do.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I don't know. Some things might be extreme or odd but not really neglectful or harmful. It sounds like they are living pretty different from you though.

Have you actually seen that your friend does not provide her children enough food or are you assuming they are not providing enough just because her kids are thin and eat a lot at your house?

I would not judge by appearance or appetite the amount of food a child has at home. My dd has always been very thin- way below average weight on the growth chart- no matter how much she eats. She is not unhealthy or restricted in the amount of food available to her. I was the same way as a child.

I think having a space heater is providing heat. Do the children also have access to warm clothing and blankets?

I had a very cold home when I was a kid. It did not have great heat or much insulation. We had space heaters, blankets and warm clothes. We put plastic on windows and covered them with blankets. We sat near heaters. We were a little cold sometimes in winter. It wasn't harmful even if it was uncomfortable at times. That's just the way it was.

It may be that they are financially strained even with degrees and jobs. If they truly do not have enough food at home and can't afford to heat their house maybe you can help them find some help. You might ask your friend if she has checked with her utility company for ways to keep heating costs down like an equal payment plan.


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## MamaMunchkin (Feb 3, 2011)

Not sure, but how are the children - do they seem distressed, unhappy, anxious, scared, sad, anything off in any way?


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

While I can't say for sure that everything sounds hunky dory, I haven't read anything that is definitely off. As others have pointed out, being thin doesn't mean neglect (my daughter is in the 3rd percentile for weight, and believe me, we offer her tons of food). Eating a ton at your house doesn't mean anything either. They could eat the same amount at home, or they could just have a case of the grass is greener. Sometimes DD eats more elsewhere than at home.

As for the heat, while the idea of sleeping on concrete sounds a bit extreme to me, I personally don't find it necessary to heat the house when it goes down to 35F at night (it's not 35F in the house, more like in the 50s). You'll find DD prancing around the house with no socks often. Sometimes in summer jammies even. I'm always telling her to go put on socks or a sweater but she's just not cold, what can I say. We have plenty of blankets, but she'll kick them off at night. She gets hot.

We really can't conclude anything either way from what you've observed.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I feel like you pretty much described my family... and I'm not neglecting DS or anything!

We are a bit minimalist I guess, we regularly declutter & donate DS's toys (and many other items throughout the house) and we do generally return or donate gifts that we don't feel comfortable with DS playing with. Most of his toys & books came from the thrift store. DS has never complained and other kids love his playroom so I don't see the problem with him not having "plastic or nice toys."

DS eats non-stop from morning to sundown and yes, he always prefers other people's foods, and yes, he is on the tiny side (I wouldn't say 'thin' but he's only around the 15% for weight). It's embarrassing sometimes that he's constantly asking other people for food (even though I always keep a huge bag filled with food with us all day). I have joked to people, "I swear I do feed him at home!!" DS has been on several different diets (as in vegan, whole foods, paleo, etc. -- not weight loss diets of course!







) and I don't think the type of diet he is eating has had any effect on how much he eats on playdates so I don't see how following a NT-type diet would be an issue. I don't see any problem with their eating habits at all, based solely on the info your provided here.

I also don't see a huge issue with the heat, if they have a space heater then they do have heat. We live in the northeast & don't always keep the heat on (unless it's below freezing) and even on very cold nights we are likely to keep the heat low and just close the bedroom door & it stays plenty warm. We have blankets and sweaters and socks (which DS never wears, he's always in bare feet no matter how cold, just what he prefers I guess).

So I think you are over-reacting to some differences in your parenting/lifestyles... but I also know that sometimes it's hard to convey the whole picture in an online post. Does the mom provide food for her kids? Are there blankets or warm clothing available (even if they aren't being used)? Are there a few toys (even if they aren't "nice" ones in your opinion)?


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *laohaire*
> 
> While I can't say for sure that everything sounds hunky dory, I haven't read anything that is definitely off. As others have pointed out, being thin doesn't mean neglect (my daughter is in the 3rd percentile for weight, and believe me, we offer her tons of food). Eating a ton at your house doesn't mean anything either. They could eat the same amount at home, or they could just have a case of the grass is greener. Sometimes DD eats more elsewhere than at home.
> 
> ...


What kid doesn't walk around naked in the winter and then complain that they're cold?


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

It sounds like they're choosing a pretty monastic lifestyle, and that they have some kind of agenda, but there are worse things than having idealistic although possibly slightly misguided and overly controlling parents. The kids might harbor some resentment, but they'll survive assuming they are being provided with some source of warmth and an adequate amount of food.


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## Felicitymom (Jul 28, 2004)

Well, I guess the 'I'm being too judgmental" have it... I suppose I am. I do have issues with this mom and I see from the replies I have gotten that my issues are clouding my judgement. I am all for choices and freedom. I have chosen not to contact these folks anymore. It just bothers me too much to see the monastic choices that they are making... I think the kids are fairing pretty well. I mean they don't have chronic health issues and they do play and laugh and such when out and about. It seems extreme living to me, but that is their choice... just for the record I know they are making their choices not based on lack of $$$$. I don't know exactly what they earn but I know the choices are moral in nature. Oh well, some friends lost, some friends gained...

thanks for all your insight.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It sounds like they're concerned about overconsumption - like not having processed food, not using heat when they live in a warm climate and instead relying on dressing differently, not having a ton of toys. There's a lot to be said for that, though I'm not there.

My kids always eat a ton at friends' houses. They are thin but not rail thin, but some kids are naturally rail thin, and most kids will eat a ton at friends' houses, particularly if they only get whole healthy foods at home and are offered more variety elsewhere.

So I agree that it's judgement, and I'm happy to see you recognize it in yourself. I'm still working on stepping back and recognizing when I'm reacting out of judgement, but it's a good thing to learn to do.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I live in the SW and I know people who don't use heat or don't even have working heat (and not from poverty). I don't see it as a big deal, although I can't do it.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Felicitymom*
> 
> Well, I guess the 'I'm being too judgmental" have it... I suppose I am. I do have issues with this mom and I see from the replies I have gotten that my issues are clouding my judgement. I am all for choices and freedom. I have chosen not to contact these folks anymore. It just bothers me too much to see the monastic choices that they are making... I think the kids are fairing pretty well. I mean they don't have chronic health issues and they do play and laugh and such when out and about. It seems extreme living to me, but that is their choice... just for the record I know they are making their choices not based on lack of $$$$. I don't know exactly what they earn but I know the choices are moral in nature. Oh well, some friends lost, some friends gained...
> 
> thanks for all your insight.


I've gotta say, mama...I'm, like, SUPER scratching my head at how you are reacting to this family. You are seriously going to phase this mama out over what you described?? You've described the way that I live pretty spot on.

I mean, aside from the heat thing...but that's only because we heat with Anthracite and we cant help but have tropical temps around here during the winter. But if it's before mid-November or after mid-March...I don't care what the temperature is, I'm not heating the damn house. That's what we have sweaters for. If it gets too cold, I'll bake a lot and the house will get toasty (and bellies will get full!) that way. But it's funny that you mentioned the space heater as particularly offensive to you, as my children have, on multiple occasions, made a little tent on cold days and huddled in it while I pointed the space heater at the entrance of it to heat the space up for them. So...am I a monster?

The food thing...OH PUHLEASE! Yeah, you invite my kids over...they will make you think they haven't eaten in DAYS. Truth is, just about all they do all day is snack and snack and snack....CONSTANTLY. We are traditional/Weston Price style/sometimes paleo-ish eaters over here, so if we go someplace where there is high sugar, high carb, more "junky" type food..or, gasp, their favorite EVER: processed food made especially FOR kids (think capri sun juice, crackers/cookies in the shapes of animals, fruit roll-ups, etc) they will sit in the kitchen and just look at the the fridge/pantry and will eat anything you give them and nod like bobble heads if you ask them if they want more. They will eat you out of house and home...because I don't buy that shit around here. I don't restrict if we are out and about and it's offered to them, because even I enjoy an occasional piece of junky food...but I'm not going to spend money on gut rot, so they don't get that stuff at home. They LOVE the food I give them here, they eat it all day long happily....but when we go somewhere with "new and awesome-r" food, they gobble like they are starved at home. I know SOOOOO many kids who eat like that at other peoples houses.

The toy thing is weird to me...you say "nice/plastic"...what do you mean by that? I do not buy new things for my kids. They have a few really, super awesome toys. There are a few things they have that are plastic or have plastic parts, because they were just too completely neat-o to pass up for their plastic alone...but for the most part, they have WAYYYY less toys than any other kids I know and they are mostly wooden and "activity based" - think tools, kitchen stuff, dress up, big wooden dolls house). I was raised the same way (cherishing a few precious-to-me toys) and, ahem, funny enough...never really developed that "good old American consumerism" - my kids are too busy playing with dogs and chickens outside to play with toys much inside anyway.

I'm not trying to rag on you at all, but mama, I really think you should think hard about why you are judging this woman so harshly. If you are THIS turned off by her lifestyle...I can only imagine that you are living a lifestyle I would find very uncomfortable...but if I liked you and our kids were real friends, I would never stop being your friend over it. You would trade friendship over these things??

IMO, true friends are too hard to come by to let things like what you've described get in the way. All I can think of is how skinny I was as a kid. My knees were SO huge, like a baby horse or something, my feet stuck out like I was wearing water skiis...I wonder now, how many people thought my mother was starving us!







Oh well.


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## superspatula (Jun 19, 2006)

i dont want to be this family but i wish i knew people like this family. everyone i know is normal


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

I don't think there's anything wrong with distancing yourself from people if the way they live bother you. Even if you intellectually acknowledge that it's fine. There's no law saying you have to be close to everyone, or even that you have to justify distancing yourself.


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *BroodyWoodsgal*
> 
> I've gotta say, mama...I'm, like, SUPER scratching my head at how you are reacting to this family. You are seriously going to phase this mama out over what you described?? You've described the way that I live pretty spot on.


You don't let your kids keep gifts, and they have to have playdates together and have to refer to each other as "best friends?" I mean I'm all for simple living and valuing family, but I can't get behind that kind of control. I wouldn't call CPS over this family or anything, but based on what the OP has mentioned, I can't say I blame her for not really wanting to be friends.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> You don't let your kids keep gifts, and they have to have playdates together and have to refer to each other as "best friends?" I mean I'm all for simple living and valuing family, but I can't get behind that kind of control. I wouldn't call CPS over this family or anything, but based on what the OP has mentioned, I can't say I blame her for not really wanting to be friends.


I'm with you. I found the OP really sad, and then was surprised by the responses. I went back and re-read the OP to see if I had misread it the first time.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Felicitymom*
> t they are not heating their house because... hmmm, well the only reason she gave is that they didn't want to spend the x number of dollars on the heater. Now we live in the SW and so it isin't a brutal freezing winter, but regularly drops below 35 at night. Isn't this going waaaay tooooo far? When I got there *one of her rail thin girls was huddled next to the space heater in bare feet on the concrete floor....*


This is just a sad picture. It would be one thing if the family were living in poverty and needed assistance, but to live like this by choice shows a lack of mental balance.

Living frugally, eating simple foods, and reusing items are one thing. Living in misery with trashy things is quite another.

I have a old friend who is always extremely tight for money, but her children are well cared for. All their clothes and toys are second hand, but everything is in great shape. All the food is inexpensive, but her children have a healthy glow from eating right and playing outside. Caring well for children doesn't have much to do with money.

I think that what the OP is seeing is intentional neglect. Her friend sounds unbalanced to me.

We've lived in Arizona. Before we moved there, I assumed that we would never use a heater because we are not weather wimps. It turns out that low 30's at night is cold, even if you have cacti in your yard. Living in Arizona isn't an excuse to let your children freeze.


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## MamaInTheDesert (Jan 30, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> You don't let your kids keep gifts, and they have to have playdates together and have to refer to each other as "best friends?" I mean I'm all for simple living and valuing family, but I can't get behind that kind of control. I wouldn't call CPS over this family or anything, but based on what the OP has mentioned, I can't say I blame her for not really wanting to be friends.


It was these issues that stood out to me as well. The diet, eating a ton at a friend's house, and the use of space heaters didn't really bother me. Though, I do wonder... do you really save more money using space heaters though out the house as opposed to keeping the thermostat set at a reasonable temperature? Most people I know that use space heaters are those that don't have central heat, so I guess I've never considered it.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *MamaInTheDesert* 


> . Though, I do wonder... do you really save more money using space heaters though out the house as opposed to keeping the thermostat set at a reasonable temperature?


You are much more likely to have a house fire using space heaters. They just aren't as safe. Esp with small children.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I really can't see what is going with what we have been given here. Though if you're uncomfortable with this family it is best to distance yourself. It really doesn't sound like abuse though.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

OP, chances are you are seeing something in your friends that is "off" but listing things doesn't give the full picture...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MamaInTheDesert*
> 
> It was these issues that stood out to me as well. The diet, eating a ton at a friend's house, and the use of space heaters didn't really bother me. Though, I do wonder... do you really save more money using space heaters though out the house as opposed to keeping the thermostat set at a reasonable temperature? Most people I know that use space heaters are those that don't have central heat, so I guess I've never considered it.


We use space heaters in the rooms in which we spend the most time. It's a big old uninsulated house in the north east US. So we keep the thermostat low and keep our living room and bedroom comfortable with space heaters rather than heating a ton of rooms we aren't even in.

My ds will totally huddle in front of a space heater in light weight clothes and no socks... He insists his feet can't warm up with socks on, since the socks insulate his feet from the warm air. We keep explaining that wearing socks and a sweatshirt will keep him from getting cold in the first place. But if he gets too hot, he complains he's dying of heat and strips down. Drives me nuts.

And tons of mamas on here talk about what they do if people give their kids gifts of which they don't approve. Made in China, plastic toys, Barbies with their disproportionate figures, battery operated toys, noisy toys, big toys that take up too much space. People on MDC frequently complain about those things and encourage moms whose children are recipients of those items to explain to their children that they are against the family values and to donate them.

The best friend thing could be the mom's idea about how to avoid sibling rivalry.

Anyway, I'm sure the OP is sensing something more than just this list of things. And there probably is something a little strange about this family. But there is really no way to judge and nothing sounds actually neglectful. One also can't judge the family's finances. Even if they have good jobs, they may have huge student loans from their advanced degrees. They may have medical bills. Even healthy people can easily rack them up, being told to go get a certain test done only to discover it isn't covered by the insurance afterwards. Breaking a bone can result in needing surgery with an overnight hospital stay and months of physical therapy, not just a xray and cast... My dh has had hospital stays that cost more than our combined yearly income. If the accident didn't happen at work, if we didn't have insurance, that would have screwed our finances for a very long time.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I grew up in the Chicago area, so cold, and I spent many winter times huddled barefoot in front of various kinds of heaters. I don't find that odd at all. That just seems like life in the winter. Now that I'm older, I put socks on. LOL. Don't know why I stayed barefoot as a kid and huddled in front of heaters or heating vents. I remember doing it at my grandma's house mainly - it was an old house and particularly drafty.

I will say that I think living in the level of austerity this family chooses to live in is way outside of what I'd choose, and I question whether their kids are learning to be less consumery as they (as I guess) hope. But I don't think they're pushing neglect. I don't get the calling their sister the best friend thing, but people can overhear things and misinterpret them, so I am not going to make assumptions based on that.


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *MamaInTheDesert*
> 
> Though, I do wonder... do you really save more money using space heaters though out the house as opposed to keeping the thermostat set at a reasonable temperature?


Generally, it's less expensive to use space heaters than central heat since you can just heat certain areas. When we lived in an old house when I was a kid, we would turn the heat way down and use space heaters. We had oil filled electric ones, not the old kerosene type that are so dangerous. They make even safer ones now.

ETA - This guy as a pretty good run down of the issue http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/heating.html He also says to wear socks or slippers!


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *4evermom*
> 
> And tons of mamas on here talk about what they do if people give their kids gifts of which they don't approve. Made in China, plastic toys, Barbies with their disproportionate figures, battery operated toys, noisy toys, big toys that take up too much space. People on MDC frequently complain about those things and encourage moms whose children are recipients of those items to explain to their children that they are against the family values and to donate them.


But I always see quite a few people here that disagree with doing that. Also, I think there's a difference between finding a certain toy or type of toy objectionable and not allowing children to keep gifts period. As radical as some on MDC have been over the years, I've never seen anyone say they do the latter.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> But I always see quite a few people here that disagree with doing that. Also, I think there's a difference between finding a certain toy or type of toy objectionable and not allowing children to keep gifts period. As radical as some on MDC have been over the years, I've never seen anyone say they do the latter.


Yes, and that would be... extreme, to say the least. I think most of us assumed that the OP meant the kids aren't allowed to keep gifts _mom doesn't approve of_, not no gifts period. Unless maybe they are Jehovah Witnesses or something (I don't think they are allowed to give/receive bday gifts?)

I don't get the 'best friends' thing either.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> But I always see quite a few people here that disagree with doing that. Also, I think there's a difference between finding a certain toy or type of toy objectionable and not allowing children to keep gifts period. As radical as some on MDC have been over the years, I've never seen anyone say they do the latter.


Sure, I'm one of them. But the people who start the threads really seem to want support to toss/donate the toys they don't like. It always seemed like a 50/50 mix of opinions to me, over the years.

We are just reading about the OP's interpretation of what she sees. She says they have toys. We aren't hearing an explanation from the mother. Even if the mother explained to the OP that she didn't want her children to get gifts, it could just be a strangely worded version of wanting to have a no-gifts party. Easier to discourage people from giving them any gifts than to have to get rid of them for whatever reason.


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *4evermom*
> 
> We are just reading about the OP's interpretation of what she sees.


Of course, but this just a chat forum and not court, so I feel okay making a judgment.







Given everything the OP has stated about herself and the family in question, I think something is very different about this family.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> You don't let your kids keep gifts, and they have to have playdates together and have to refer to each other as "best friends?" I mean I'm all for simple living and valuing family, but I can't get behind that kind of control. I wouldn't call CPS over this family or anything, but based on what the OP has mentioned, I can't say I blame her for not really wanting to be friends.


The can't keep gifts part is not how I roll *personally*, unless it's a really offensive gift, but I know a TON of parents who operate that way.

The play dates and "best friends" things..ugh. Yeah, I don't really love the way that sounds, but I think I understand where the mama is coming from. I VERY actively support and encourage family bond and sibling bond...my kids are very close and it's important to me that they be able count on each other as they grow up, as I am still able to count on my siblings. I do not go about it the way the mama in question is trying to do things, but I think her idea is a good one. It's just crappy execution.

As for everyone who is losing their minds over this "rail thin little girl huddling around a space heater" - oh for pete's sake, are you serious??

So, let me ask you this: If the girl were fuller figured, would it be such a "sad picture"?? If she were a bratty child that the OP disliked, would she have described it in such a sympathetic way?

"Rail thin girl huddled in front of a space heater" = A child who is, like MANY children, a thin little kid, is sitting hunched over (because it is chilly in the room) in front of the space heater her parents have set up, because they know that it is chilly in the room...but because it's freaking April, they don't want to turn on the central heating and burn oil/gas/whatever to heat the whole house.

You guys are seriously going to get all mopey about that? I live in one of the coldest regions of the country and it gets cold from Sept/Oct all the way through early May. Here's the thing though, one day in March it's 70-80 degrees...and a day or so later the temp is hitting 20...maybe even 10 degrees at night. So, the morning time all the way through mid day can be very cold...then the sun heats the house up and I'm opening windows and we're wearing tshirts.

If I fire up the stove and get the place nice and heated in the morning....it's going to be *sweltering* hot the rest of the day and we will have wasted our heating resources. So, instead of doing that, we put on freaking clothes and try not to be whiners. We bake bread. We snuggle and read books under a blanket...and if it's a truly cold day, I make a play tent for the kids, get out the tiny, electric space heater and point it inside the tent to heat it up. For the first few minutes, they huddle like little street urchins in front of the heater...it's a completely pitiful site, one that would have you "concerned" types all up in arms, I'm sure. But after the initial few minutes, they play happily inside the tent and I never have to run the space heater for more than five minutes at a time, every hour or so, to keep a nice toasty tent for them to play in.

The food thing that some of you are so hung up on..I'll say it again: My kids do nothing but eat all. day. long. If they go to someone elses house where there is "new and exciting" food around, they eat even more. I myself was a RIDICULOUSLY skinny kid who ate a ton everywhere I went.

You can't look at a kid and be like "oh, she's skinny and she eats a lot when she's over at my house" and feel comfortable judging their parent. Not cool. I'm really shocked at how seriously people are taking this situation.

If you want my opinion, yeah, the OP SHOULD stop talking to this poor woman....nobody deserves a such a shallow and judgmental friend.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> You are much more likely to have a house fire using space heaters. They just aren't as safe. Esp with small children.


I don't think this is necessarily true. Hardly anyone uses the old style, dangerous fire-making kind of space heaters any more. Reaaallly safe, super energy effecient, high heat output space heaters are very cheap and easy to come by these days.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I had two daycare kids who were similar to this. The mom (not so much the dad, he just went along) would not allow any toys for the children. They were not to have toys in the house, ever, and all clothing for them had to be free. So, very often, the 4 yr old girl came over wearing her 9 month old brother's jeans. The largest pair of pants she owned were a 12 months, so she would unsnap the crotch and wear them that way.

They also didn't use heat, but we live in the Southwest too, so it wasn't really an issue. We rarely turn our heater on here either.

The kids were never, ever, ever allowed a meal. Even if the parents ate a meal, the children were "grazers". So, they had fruits, vegies, and cheeses in muffin tins on the counter, and were not allowed to eat from each other's tin, but were also not allowed to fill up at one time. At my house, she gorged because they were so hungry. The only starchy food they were allowed (even at my house) was rice.

The four year old would be sent out to stand on rocks in her bare feet, or on the hot patio almost every day because she was expected to learn to handle pain without complaints. She could only come in when she stopped crying. (our neighbor does this exact same thing with her grandson too, so it's possibly a cultural thing)

Mostly, I think it's just a parenting choice. It drove me absolutely crazy!!! But, the thing that bugged me the most was her comments about the other kids. "Oh, I see Molly's parents allow Dora". or "Oh, she wears princess panties? A***** will never wear anything but plain white". I wanted to say "stop openly critiquing these poor kids please".


----------



## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

When temperatures drop too low, skinny kids can be in danger of hypothermia because they have no insulation. Hypothermia is a serious cause of failure to thrive in infants. These kids are older than that, but still, keeping warm takes energy and skinny kids don't have fat to burn - anyone can drop weight over the winter just from trying to stay warm, and skinny kids don't have weight to drop. Once their weight is too low, they can be more susceptible to infections and contagious illnesses, and can suffer other consequences of calorie deprivation like muscle loss and heart damage. So yes, it is especially concerning when a skinny child is huddled by the space heater. It's not just a problem because she looks like a poetically deprived Victorian orphan, it's that the kids with some additional weight can generate calories to maintain their body heat by burning lipids and the kids who are already bony cannot.

To the OP, while nothing rises to the level of calling CPS for me, I would feel very uncomfortable with this family too. Something seems off. If I maintained the relationship, I would be doing it to reassure myself that the kids were occasionally getting a solid meal.


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## MamaInTheDesert (Jan 30, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BroodyWoodsgal*
> 
> I'm really shocked at how seriously people are taking this situation.
> 
> If you want my opinion, yeah, the OP SHOULD stop talking to this poor woman....nobody deserves a such a shallow and judgmental friend.


Honestly, I don't see that people are really taking the situation all that seriously. I think some of us have pointed out that some of the things listed do sound a little weird or outside our scope like the sisters being forced to be best friends thing and the not allowed to receive gifts thing. But, the majority of the posters here have gone out of their way to say that they don't feel like this is any sort of neglect. Even the OP said she "thinks the kids are faring pretty well" and she mentioned that she thinks her other issues with the mom are clouding her judgment and so she HAS stopped talking to her.

My personal feeling is that there's probably more going on than just the things that the OP listed here, and for her it's more like what you said about execution of the ideas rather than the ideas themselves. Like I don't think that anyone feels that encouraging sibling closeness is wrong or bad, but that forcing them to say that they are each others best friends is pretty weird. I think that there's probably some more weirdness behind the other choices that the other mom is making that is probably just driving the OP bonkers when she's around her or witnessing these things going on.

I know you identified with the mom Broody, but I don't think that you should take what people are saying as a reflection of specifically the choices that you make that are similar to the mom. I think people are just picking up on the general weirdness of the mom, and the overall discomfort of the OP. I think if these things are making the OP feel weirded out by things that she even said she had no problem with like choices about minimalism or traditional foods then yeah, she might need some distance from her like she's taking.


----------



## MamaInTheDesert (Jan 30, 2012)

Oh, and thanks to the PPs for giving me all the info on space heaters vs using central heat when you have it! It just wasn't anything I had really considered before and I feel like I learned a lot.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

wrong place


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stik*
> 
> When temperatures drop too low, skinny kids can be in danger of hypothermia because they have no insulation. Hypothermia is a serious cause of failure to thrive in infants. These kids are older than that, but still, keeping warm takes energy and skinny kids don't have fat to burn - anyone can drop weight over the winter just from trying to stay warm, and skinny kids don't have weight to drop. Once their weight is too low, they can be more susceptible to infections and contagious illnesses, and can suffer other consequences of calorie deprivation like muscle loss and heart damage. So yes, it is especially concerning when a skinny child is huddled by the space heater. It's not just a problem because she looks like a poetically deprived Victorian orphan, it's that the kids with some additional weight can generate calories to maintain their body heat by burning lipids and the kids who are already bony cannot.
> 
> To the OP, while nothing rises to the level of calling CPS for me, I would feel very uncomfortable with this family too. Something seems off. If I maintained the relationship, I would be doing it to reassure myself that the kids were occasionally getting a solid meal.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MamaInTheDesert*
> 
> Honestly, I don't see that people are really taking the situation all that seriously. <snip>


MamaInTheDesert: Please see the post I've quoted above to better understand why this is all so crazy to me. HYPOTHERMIA? Come ON. I realize some people are being reasonable...but there are some people here who are definitely not. "If I maintained the relationship, I would be doing it to reassure myself that the kids were occasionally getting a solid meal" - is this for real? The judgement is really, really bugging me. The OP has not said anything which paints this family as anything but "not the norm" - I'd be willing to bet money these parents love their kids like crazy, are taking care of them just fine and that this mama would be completely crushed if she knew what ugly and harsh things the OP was thinking about her. The OP so much as said that the kids seem happy.
Hypothermia.







Oh for the love of god. The thing that makes me sick about this thread, is the number of people who have read it and probably thought to themselves "oh, I would *totally* be calling CPS on this one" - it's just ugliness. Judgmental ugliness.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BroodyWoodsgal*
> 
> The judgement is really, really bugging me. The OP has not said anything which paints this family as anything but "not the norm" -


I think that it is part of our role as a community to judge when children are being appropriately cared for. Concerns about basic needs like food and shelter (which heat is part of) are real. Exactly where the line is between parental choices and legal neglect is difficult to draw, even for those whose job it is sort that out.

I was neglected and abused as a child, and no body did anything. I wonder how many people saw flags, and decided not to judge. So my childhood was a nightmare. I would err on the side of calling if I was honestly concerned that I child was being neglected, because I know what it is like to be the child in that situation.

This isn't just about parents' choices, it's about how those choices effect powerless children. Its about where parents right STOP and we as a society step in and say that it isn't OK -- that no child should be left cold and hungry. A child being cold and hungry *because the parents believe that it is better that way" is unacceptable.


----------



## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I think that it is part of our role as a community to judge when children are being appropriately cared for. Concerns about basic needs like food and shelter (which heat is part of) are real. Exactly where the line is between parental choices and legal neglect is difficult to draw, even for those whose job it is sort that out.
> 
> ...


Linda: As for the bolded, I could have written it. I understand how that colors your perspective.

However, there is a difference between a child freezing, without access to proper clothing for bundling up, etc because her parents don't care...and a child warming her feet in front of a space heater because her house is chilly. There is a difference between a child who lives with constant hunger because her parents don't want to or can't feed her...and a kid who is like a lot of kids I know, including my own: Always hungry for more snacks and food.

The OP has not described neglect or abuse on any level in this situation.


----------



## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BroodyWoodsgal*
> 
> If you want my opinion, yeah, the OP SHOULD stop talking to this poor woman....nobody deserves a such a shallow and judgmental friend.


This seems a little dramatic to me. I don't see any reason to be attacking the OP.

I think I'd feel a little uncomfortable with this family, too. My values are pretty different, I guess. I like to see my kids comfortable and happy and I wouldn't see any inherent good in keeping my house uncomfortably cold if I could afford to do otherwise.

The part about not feeding them enough freaks me out because I do know someone that does that -- of course, I can't know that OP's judgement is spot on because I don't know anything about her, but for the sake of argument, I'm perfectly willing to take what she says on face value, plus, because I know this woman that does that, I know it can and does happen. This woman that I know is anorexic, literally, and is trying to teach her son "good eating habits" so he doesn't get into trouble with food when he's older. From the time he weaned at around age 1, he's been fed only fat-free versions of things and small portions and only sit down meals at mealtimes (funny that her rules are directly opposite to the family with the muffin cups of cheese). He is shockingly skinny and has a nearly translucent but sort of ashy complexion. My heart breaks for him. Of course I'm sure she'd be horrified to know that I go out of my way to buy full fat yogurt and happily feed my kids cheese and meat and real butter and eggs with the yolks. I'm sure we are each judging the other, but I don't see any way around that. I think what she's doing is just plain wrong. She thinks the exact same about me. Nobody's calling cps and oddly enough we kind of like each other. But I couldn't spend a whole lot of time with her because her parenting choices do upset me (more than just the feeding, she's a pretty serious punisher and I'm pretty gentle, and other things, too). I think for me she's pretty similar to this family you're describing, OP.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I would feel uncomfortable being around a family that believes in limiting food and heat. The rest sounds judgmental but the food and heat for times when it is below freezing are important. In my state the gas and electric companies can't cut you off in winter because it is considered an absolute necessity. I have to wonder what they put the kids through when it was very cold if they were embarrassed to have people over then but aren't now that it is warm enough for her child to merely have to huddle in front of the space heater without that being embarrassing.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I was neglected and abused as a child, and no body did anything. I wonder how many people saw flags, and decided not to judge. So my childhood was a nightmare. I would err on the side of calling if I was honestly concerned that I child was being neglected, because I know what it is like to be the child in that situation.


Growing up, I had a few friends who were being abused. The older brother of my best friend was being beaten and burned every day, and the neighbors (my parents included) knew about it, yet said "It's not our business". While my friend and I sat on the swing set in her front yard, we watched the dad (who was grilling dinner next to the garage) pour lighter fluid on his son, and throw a lit box of matches at him. His shirt and hair, caught on fire... then just as suddenly, the dad helped put the flames out, and acted all concerned. When I told my mom about it, all she said was "Maybe you should stay away from their house for a while". The boy was hospitalized for a very long time, he missed the rest of the school year while he recovered from those burns, and nobody ever did a thing. Not the school, not the hospital, and none of us.


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *BroodyWoodsgal*
> 
> "Rail thin girl huddled in front of a space heater" = A child who is, like MANY children, a thin little kid, is sitting hunched over (because it is chilly in the room) in front of the space heater her parents have set up, because they know that it is chilly in the room...but *because it's freaking April*, they don't want to turn on the central heating and burn oil/gas/whatever to heat the whole house.


The OP said this was at a playdate over the winter. Not saying that should change your mind. Just thought I'd mention it since a couple people seem to have overlooked it.


----------



## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

nm...hadn't finished my coffee yet


----------



## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

I don't find anything odd about not using central heating in AZ in the winter. I mean, AZ isn't that cold. Sure, it may get down to 35 at night (which isn't that cold..it's not even freezing), but it gets warmer during the day and I assume the house holds heat in. As long as the indoor temp is at least 55-65 degrees (which I would think it could be easily in AZ even w/o heat) then it is not anywhere close to being dangerously cold and is probably healthier than keeping the house warmer (as central heating elements are breeding grounds for germs and there is some research showing that cold adaptation is extremely beneficial and healthy). Plus, the use of space heaters allows the kids to get warmer if they feel the need.

Cold feelings are all pretty relative....I currently live in the SE and people seriously walk around in winter coats and hats when it's 60 degrees outside, whereas where I grew up (in the NE) that was sweatshirt weather. Just because people *feel* cold at warmer temperatures down here, doesn't mean that they actually need winter hats at 60 degrees or are in any danger at those temperatures

Lack of heat in a place where the *coldest* it gets is 35 at night is quite different than lack of heat in a climate where the *warmest* it gets is 35 during the day. In a climate like that, yes...I would be concerned about a lack of heat, but not in someplace like AZ.

As far as the food thing goes..my kids get fascinated by any new foods I buy or bring into the house, even if they aren't "junky"...just that they are "different." For example. I went through a long period of making my own yogurt, so when I got busy and stopped doing that and started buying yogurt, they were fascinated and ate a ton of it. After awhile, the novelty wore off and they stopped eating it at such a rapid pace. The same thing happens even with things like grapes or oranges...when those go on sale (due to being in season) and I buy them, they eat them at a very rapid pace for the first few weeks and then the pace tapers off and they don't eat them so fast. The same thing could easily happen at other people's houses where everything is "new" and different, even if the types of foods aren't all that different. If we have only had apples and bananas and oranges for a couple of weeks, my kids go crazy over grapes, but if we have grapes and apples and bananas, then they go crazy over oranges.

So, unless you know the mom is actually really restricting food, you can't make that assumption based on the fact that that kids are thin (some just are) and that they eat a lot of a friend's house.


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## MamaInTheDesert (Jan 30, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BroodyWoodsgal*
> 
> MamaInTheDesert: Please see the post I've quoted above to better understand why this is all so crazy to me. HYPOTHERMIA? Come ON. I realize some people are being reasonable...but there are some people here who are definitely not.


Okay okay. I concede. I totally missed that post that came about the hypothermia. I mean, why are we even talking about hypothermia in Arizona, where in the winter time you're lucky if it gets below freezing at night? These new posts are a bit alarmist as well. I think people are now overreacting about the food. The OP didn't say anything about this mom restricting food, just that the kids seemed to eat a lot when they came over.


----------



## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I will say that when other kids come to my house they clean me out like they haven't eatin in years. I've been to their homes I see what they're fed. They eat well. But everyone is different by what they're comfortable with.


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## pammysue (Jan 24, 2004)

OP, I think you should limit your time with this family if they make you uncomfortable. Their behavior is outside of what is the American norm, not that this is bad. I am mildly crunchy and I know there are people who are uncomfortable with some of our parenting choices.

But, I have to say that some of the things in your post remind me of my children. We don't eat a TF diet, we have plenty of food but my kids will eat and eat, especially (as others have said) in non-home situations. And my DS1 is very thin, but very healthy.

As for the heat, we live in a cold climate and I keep our home pretty warm by some standards (70-72) because I HATE to be cold. My kids spend their time at home in undies/diapers. They both strip as soon as we walk in the door. DS1 will refuse any clothes.He knows where his clean clothes are and can get himself dressed. I've stopped asking him if he wants to be dressed. But whenever the heater kicks on, he sits on the heater vents and plays. I can see if someone walked into my house, they would be aghast that my thin (you can count his ribs!) DS was naked and had to play on the heater vent on the cold kitchen tile floor. And all he had to eat was plain crackers! That's his choice and it's his choice to make. BTW, this is the exact situation as I write this post (he also has grapes on his table in the other room).


----------



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
> 
> The kids were never, ever, ever allowed a meal. Even if the parents ate a meal, the children were "grazers". So, they had fruits, vegies, and cheeses in muffin tins on the counter, and were not allowed to eat from each other's tin, but were also not allowed to fill up at one time. At my house, she gorged because they were so hungry. The only starchy food they were allowed (even at my house) was rice.
> 
> The four year old would be sent out to stand on rocks in her bare feet, or on the hot patio almost every day because she was expected to learn to handle pain without complaints. She could only come in when she stopped crying. (our neighbor does this exact same thing with her grandson too, so it's possibly a cultural thing)


Not about the OP but this really concerns me. Cultural or not, these things would be red flags to me. Forcing a child to endure pain is abuse. Purposely making children go hungry while you eat in front of them is neglect/abuse.


----------



## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MamaInTheDesert*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


A few people die of hypothermia in AZ each winter. In the phoenix and Tucson metro areas, not just in the higher elevations where you are lucky if it gets above freezing at high noon. Arizona is a big state - small parts of it have permafrost and a large chunk of it is under a foot of snow right now. But it doesn't matter where you are. It doesn't have to be below freezing for people to lose the ability to control their body temperature. It just has to be cold. I agree it's unlikely if a kid has a space heater to huddle near. At least, their condition won't deteriorate to the freezing to death point. But they could still be suffering quite a bit, especially if their nutritional status is poor, and even when it's not fatal, hypothermia can make you feel pretty horrible.


----------



## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stik*
> 
> A few people die of hypothermia in AZ each winter. In the phoenix and Tucson metro areas, not just in the higher elevations where you are lucky if it gets above freezing at high noon. Arizona is a big state - small parts of it have permafrost and a large chunk of it is under a foot of snow right now. But it doesn't matter where you are. It doesn't have to be below freezing for people to lose the ability to control their body temperature. It just has to be cold. I agree it's unlikely if a kid has a space heater to huddle near. At least, their condition won't deteriorate to the freezing to death point. But they could still be suffering quite a bit, especially if their nutritional status is poor, and even when it's not fatal, hypothermia can make you feel pretty horrible.


Oh I'm more than certain that a few people a year die in Arizona from hypothermia..I have NO doubt about that. But those people die because they get lost in the wilderness and aren't prepared because they think "Hey, it's Arizona, how cold could it get" - which is dumb, because even the desert that is sweltering hot in the day time can become absolutely freezing(or below freezing) in the night.

The people who die of hypothermia there every year are NOT dying in their homes, certainly not in front of space heaters. I refuse to sit here and believe that this mother is letting her child get dangerously cold, like, to the point where hypothermia is edging nearer every minute. I'm sorry, I just think that it is completely over the top to even mention hypothermia.

Some people keep their homes a toasty temperature all the time. Some people buy sweaters and ask their children to wear them. I don't think either way is always wrong or always right...but I think that there is a LOT of room between "this house is kept chillier than I would keep my house" and "I think your kid needs medical attention because she is going to die of hypothermia if you don't act quickly" - a LOT of room.


----------



## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

Some of the people who die of hypothermia in AZ each year are idiots who go into the wilderness unprepared. But most of the people who die of hypothermia in the major metro areas of AZ die in their homes. They die because they are poor and can't afford heat.

I agree that a kid with a space heater is not facing death from hypothermia. However, a kid with poor nutritional status and parents unwilling to turn on the heat could still suffer from hypothermia, which has a number of consequences short of death. The energy consumed recovering from hypothermia is energy not being used for other important things. Stunted growth and immuno-suppression are possible consequences.

I don't know what is going on with this family, but the OP is concerned, and I think some of her concerns have a rational basis. The heat was on that day that the OP saw the girl huddled by the heater, but if the parents are waiting to heat the house until THEY feel cold, they may be forcing the kids into a situation that is at best uncomfortable and at worst a cause of long term issues with health and development.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Not about the OP but this really concerns me. Cultural or not, these things would be red flags to me. Forcing a child to endure pain is abuse. Purposely making children go hungry while you eat in front of them is neglect/abuse.


I thought so too. I did make a report, but it was unfounded. ( CPS told me that it was cultural)

However, they did lose custody a few years later for another complaint. When that incident was investigated, the home was considered uninhabitable for children.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stik*
> 
> A few people die of hypothermia in AZ each winter. In the phoenix and Tucson metro areas, not just in the higher elevations where you are lucky if it gets above freezing at high noon.


I live in the desert. I have a newer home, and we very rarely turn on the heater, and then, only for an hour or so in the morning to take the chill off. Never during the day or while we sleep. Our house never goes below 69 (which is horribly cold to me)

I would imagine though, that an older home, or a poorly insulated home would get much colder than mine.

Although, even then, I can't imagine it's cold enough for a child, or healthy adult to die. The summers here are a completely different situation, and can be very dangerous.


----------



## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

I just moved out of AZ this summer after living there for 12 years. The summers are way more dangerous than the winters, at least in the largest cities, but there are a few hypothermia deaths each year - generally older people or people who are really malnourished in older housing with poor insulation who don't turn on the heat for financial reasons or who have had their electricity cut off. There are more cases among the homeless population, as you would expect, but people in homes get it too.

You can get hypothermia at 50-60 degrees. You don't get it from being in a super-cold environment, you get it from being unable to maintain a normal body temperature. Hypothermia doesn't just kill people, it can also have non-fatal negative impacts on their health, especially if they are growing children and they are cold for weeks or months at a time.

I'm not trying to argue that the kids are at risk of freezing to death here. I'm just trying to point out that a skinny kid could be suffering a lot in the cold, especially if their parents are stubborn about turning on the heat, and the OP's concern may be reasonable.


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

For me the real question is:

Is this simply a mother who's a lot more controlling about what her kids say, eat and play with than I'm comfortable with or whether there's signs of her withholding food and warmth.

If it's the former, it's just a friendship that will never take off. If it's the latter, it's a sign of abuse. Nothing in the OP says "abuse" to me, but I'm not there and I don't have all the info.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

OP, nothing you say sounds scary to me. I am not living it, though.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BroodyWoodsgal*
> 
> The people who die of hypothermia there every year are NOT dying in their homes, certainly not in front of space heaters. I refuse to sit here and believe that this mother is letting her child get dangerously cold, like, to the point where hypothermia is edging nearer every minute. I'm sorry, I just think that it is completely over the top to even mention hypothermia.
> 
> Some people keep their homes a toasty temperature all the time. Some people buy sweaters and ask their children to wear them. I don't think either way is always wrong or always right...but I think that there is a LOT of room between "this house is kept chillier than I would keep my house" and "I think your kid needs medical attention because she is going to die of hypothermia if you don't act quickly" - a LOT of room.


I completely agree. I do think you need to more careful of temperature if you have an infant or elderly person in the house, but this does not sound like it is the case in the OP's scenario.

I live in Canada. I do not think I have ever heard of someone getting hypothermia in their house unless the power is off. I am not saying it never happens, but it seems pretty rare.

In 2 days time, the daytime high is going to be about 60 and the night is going to fall to about 40, and it is extremely unlikely I will feel the need to turn on the heat. Houses do retain some heat from the day, and warm blankets exist for a reason. Heck, I may even crack the window overnight at that temperature.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *stik* 


> I'm just trying to point out that a skinny kid could be suffering a lot in the cold, especially if their parents are stubborn about turning on the heat, and the OP's concern may be reasonable.


We've lived all over -- from Arizona to Canada. The same temp. can feel very different depending on what the other temps you experienced in the last year were. What feels "warm" to a Canadian is VERY different than some one living on the desert floor in southern Arizona. If you've just gone through a Canadian winter, 70 is really warm -- lovely, barefoot weather. If you just went through a Yuma summer, you might find yourself wanting a sweatshirt because your body has adjusted to hellish heat.

Yes -- I've seen both children and adults wearing sweatshirts when it's 70.

(And I've also listened to Canadians complain about how blistering hot 85 degrees is. )

I'd also like to point out that Arizona is a state a tremendous diversity. It snowed so much in parts of Arizona yesterday that roads were closed. One of those roads was just outside Tucson, near the US's southern most ski resorts.


----------



## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> We've lived all over -- from Arizona to Canada. The same temp. can feel very different depending on what the other temps you experienced in the last year were. What feels "warm" to a Canadian is VERY different than some one living on the desert floor in southern Arizona. If you've just gone through a Canadian winter, 70 is really warm -- lovely, barefoot weather. If you just went through a Yuma summer, you might find yourself wanting a sweatshirt because your body has adjusted to hellish heat.
> 
> ...


I will say, I agree with this! Toward the tail end of winter, when the days start warming up to 30 degrees or so around here...I do all my outside chores with no coat on sometimes because it feels so warm to me! A tshirt or long sleeve shirt feels pretty comfortable when I'm moving around a lot. I'm only outside for 20-30 min stretches...still, 30 degrees is pretty chilly...but it feels warm as hell after a brutal, bitterly cold winter.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> (And I've also listened to Canadians complain about how blistering hot 85 degrees is. )


That's about 30 Celsius...yeah - I'm complaining at that heat. It's hot enough to make me feel sick. DH loves it, but I can't stand it. OTOH, most everyone else I know loves it. I seem to be a lover of cold weather. And, yes - whether the temperature is hot or cold is at least somewhat subjective. I can frequently be found in t-shirt when everyone around me is wearing at least long sleeves and a sweatshirt or hoodie...and they're saying "I'm cold", while I'm quite comfortable.


----------



## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

I think any parent who is putting their needs above their kids needs to re-think what is most important to them. If warm clothing and heat is provided, then let it go. If the kids don't have anything warm enough to wear and mom refuses to turn the central heating on and it's under 65 in the house or something, then I think mom is wrong.

The whole food thing is bizarre. I think if the OP is accurate and the children aren't allowed to sit down for a meal, that is a huge red flag. And I'm not saying the OP is lying but that just seems strange and doesn't makes sense.

It's a personal pet peeve of mine when siblings are always made to be together. My boys did many things as a unit when they were very little. They were 15 months apart and their activities were similar. But I have had friend who wouldn't allow their child to come over to watch a movie because the younger sibling couldn't. I didn't think that was fair. I also know a mom who always asks that her younger daughter be included in birthday parties that the older is invited to. She asked at my dd's party. My dd had never even met the younger girl but when the mom called to "ask" (more like tell), mom told me the little one had already made the card and she didn't have the heart to tell her she wasn't invited. This was about an hour before the party.


----------



## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Youngfrankenstein*
> 
> I think any parent who is putting their needs above their kids needs to re-think what is most important to them. If warm clothing and heat is provided, then let it go. If the kids don't have anything warm enough to wear and mom refuses to turn the central heating on and it's under 65 in the house or something, then I think mom is wrong.
> 
> ...


See that's all just really bizarre and unhealthy sounding stuff! Not to mention rude! (The birthday party thing!)

I think the story about the kids who were not allowed to sit for a meal was a different family...but I may be wrong? I thought that was about someone else.


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Youngfrankenstein*
> 
> I also know a mom who always asks that her younger daughter be included in birthday parties that the older is invited to. She asked at my dd's party. My dd had never even met the younger girl but when the mom called to "ask" (more like tell), mom told me the little one had already made the card and she didn't have the heart to tell her she wasn't invited. This was about an hour before the party.


you know i dont really mind this. in fact in all of dd's bdays i have always invited the younger and even older sibling too. some of dd's friends have younger sisters who really REALLY want to go to dd's bday party (they are usually close in age). some know her (with many we are not really friends with the parents but the kids have had enough sleepovers where dd's gains ardent admirers) and some have just met her in school when they came to pick up brothers.

its for that reason i have always included siblings in dd's party. and i have always factored that in the count. i have left the option to the parent. mostly they do end up bringing the sibling/s too

the mom usually stays if she brings a young one.


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