# At what point do you decide the friendship isn't worth it?



## ian'smommaya (Jun 7, 2004)

Can you be friends with someone who CIO's? Spanks? At what point do your ideals as a parent over ride your friendships?

I know, for me, it happens pretty fast. I mean if Jo and I are in the parking lot of Costco and Jo doesn't hold hands with his 5 year old I'm not letting the friendship go, but if Jo spanked on the daily and let the baby cry herself to sleep every night I would be looking else where for friendship.

What about you?


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

I can't be friends with those who dislike their kids.

I have friends who CIO and spank but they truly like their kids. Just a different parenting style.They love being with their kids and don't treat their kids as a nuisance. I can deal with everything else but I can't stand being with someone who dislikes their kids.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

I can be "surface" friends with people who I know spank but the moment it happens in front of me I would be seriously backing off of that friendship.


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## earthmama4 (Oct 13, 2008)

Really? Maybe maturity comes with age but at 38 and 5, almost 6 kids later, I have a pretty live and let live attitude. I have BTDT with pretty much everything. Who am I to judge? I don't have to parent the same as my friends to be friends. I am not co-parenting with them. It matters a lot more whether we laugh at the same things or like the same activities than whether they might spank their kid every now and again or whether they co-sleep or breastfeed. I have a good friend who slaps her toddlers hand sometimes when he grabs something she told him not to. She's a good mom, she's just young and inexperienced and was frustrated. I didn't judge her or say anything. One day she was venting to me about the fact that she was frustrated with him and nothing was working anymore. I told her some ideas and lent her a book that has been helpful to me. That moment never would have come had I decided that I couldn't be friends with her anymore. I have another friend who micro-manages her children's play. She yells to as they play in the park to do this, don't do that, be nice, slow down, don't run (in the park?!?!) etc. I can drive me nuts as park time = relax time for me. Let the kids run for heaven sakes! But its just a parenting difference, not a friendship deal-breaker. I guess the only exception is true abuse. I couldn't be friends with anyone who truly and maliciously hurt their children on purpose - physically or verbally. I haven't encountered that though.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

I'm 38 and consider myself pretty mature. I just can't watch a child suffer. To me, it's abuse. They ARE inflicting pain on their child purposefully. I can't watch that and I don't want my child to see it either. It's not about judging them, I just don't want it around me or my family.


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## Katie8681 (Dec 29, 2010)

I have a very rough time watching spanking/slapping. I don't feel like I'm watching a different parenting style, I feel like I'm watching someone hit and hurt someone smaller than them who they are supposed to love. I don't know if I'd break off a friendship for it. I'd probably have to say something.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I used to think it would be a dealbreaker but my friend spanks her son and I had no idea for a long time because she just seemed so patient and connected to him (and still does eight years later). It is just not something I would allow to break up a friendship. I don't live in an area whether people punish kids in public though so that may also be part of why it just doesn't seem like an issue to consider in a friendship.


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## Nightwish (Sep 9, 2008)

Would you be friends with a man who hits his wife? I'm not talking about abuse, just a slap here and there.
Who are we to judge?


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nightwish*
> 
> Would you be friends with a man who hits his wife? I'm not talking about abuse, just a slap here and there.
> Who are we to judge?


I'm not entirely sure if this is meant seriously, or to compare this situation to spanking, but no...I wouldn't be friends with that man.

For me it's kind of like grumpybear said...I can't be around someone who dislikes their kids. Spanking is very hard for me to be around, though...I probably couldn't hang out much with a friend who did it frequently. It's not really that I'm judging them, it's that it makes me physically ill to be around, so for my own sake I don't want to.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nightwish*
> 
> Would you be friends with a man who hits his wife? I'm not talking about abuse, just a slap here and there.
> Who are we to judge?


I took this to mean that there really is no difference between hitting and adult and hitting a child, expect that the child is actually a lot more vulnerable. And the remark about just a slap here and there is pretty much the same as saying that spanking isn't really abuse. Actually, it is. Hitting is hitting. It's never right.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nightwish*
> 
> Would you be friends with a man who hits his wife? I'm not talking about abuse, just a slap here and there.
> Who are we to judge?


See. I think this was a very valid post. Made me think. If a friend slapped, not spanked, but slapped her kid once or twice I wouldn't like it, but I would probably maintain the friendship. But if I saw a man slapping his wife, I would be disgusted and outraged and upset the whole day and not be friends, except trying to get the woman away from the man. Why the difference? Because children don't have rights, they are property? Or what? I am conflicted.

FWIW any physical abuse, slapping, spanking... is illegal here, so never seen that in public, though I assume it still happens in private. I had one in my moms group who told me she really hd the urge to do it though when she was so worn out, tired and stressed. I told her I did too. When it happened I put my baby in the crib, screaming, walked out of the house and smoked a cigarette. I don't even smoke, but I did that probably 5 times when my youngest was a baby and I was beyond the end of my rope. Does that mean I practice CIO? NO, it means I was beyond the end of my rope and instead of smashing my baby through the window, which is exactly what I felt like, I left the house and took 10-15 minutes to myself to calm down. People are not perfect, and a lot to people judge harshly. I agree with the pp about live and let live.


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## Nightwish (Sep 9, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> I took this to mean that there really is no difference between hitting and adult and hitting a child, expect that the child is actually a lot more vulnerable. And the remark about just a slap here and there is pretty much the same as saying that spanking isn't really abuse. Actually, it is. Hitting is hitting. It's never right.


That's what I meant. Hitting children is socially acceptable because they are not considered people. We just chalk up the practice as a different way to parent.
50 years ago maybe, if a man had hit his wife, no one would have interfered.


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## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

okay, here, to my mind , is the difference between a kid and an adult, and the difference between hitting an adult woman (or man) and a child.

An adult woman has options. 95% of the time, she can get out. Its hard-I've worked with women who have escaped violent partners, I am not underestimating how hard it is. But at least for a battered wife,as a legal adult, there are options. There are ways, there is legal, financial and emotional help. She needs enough of a restart to get her out. But its normally possible to say that a wife being hit is better off without her husband.

A kid doesn't have this option. A kid who is being hit cannot just generally just leave home. I'd go so far as to say that, if we are talking spanking, not extreme abuse, its rare that a child would be better off in the care system than with a parent who spanked.

So for me, the priority needs to be to change the parents behaviour, since the child, unlike the woman, cannot get out and perhaps shouldn't.

I do not for a moment condone violence against anyone. But for me what matters really is trying to minimise violence, trying to minimise the effects of violence, and trying to preserve what is good in that relationship. Because, pragmatically, what other option is there?

If a friend hits, and you cut off your friendship, what happens? Will they realise the error of their ways, and stop hitting? Or, more likely, will they continue to hit, and dismiss your ideas out of hand. Will their kids have lost an important adult? Will they have lost a friend who could have acted as a safety value, while modelling alternative ways of dealing with difficult situations with the kids?

I think the most productive thing to do is to make clear that you do not condone hitting, that you consider there to be better ways to parent. That you_ know_ how hard parenting is. Or if you don't-if your friend has a tearaway 6 year old and you have a gentle 6 month old and a head full of parenting theories-just listen. I don't think condemning and isolation achieves anything beyond making the person standing in judgement feel better, and personally, I wouldn't be prepared to do that at the expense of a kit whose parents saw hitting as a good form of discipline.

My kids have been around when other adults have hit their kids. This is in the home education and alternative community, among people who practice gentle parenting and NVC as well as more mainstream friends. No community is immune and I think there is more going on behind closed doors than most of us think. They have been shocked and surprised but you know what? Its a good lesson in empathy and understanding. Its good for kids to see complexity, that that family who seems fun and chilled and where the dad does those amazing balloon tricks then goes into the tent and bawls their young kids out. I would not protect them from even seeing something like that at the expense of the kid actually being hit.


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## pepperedmoth (Jun 14, 2013)

I have friends who spank. To a person they love their kids. All of my friends who spank were themselves spanked --- and weren't traumatized by it. They look back on it now like just one of those difficult parts of childhood, not much different than how upset they were when they were scolded by a parent, and as parents themselves now, they treat spanking in EXACTLY the same way that I see other parents treating a time-out or whatever. I know because I've asked, because we're friends, and when I disagree with my friends I like to have a conversation about it instead of writing them off. Since their kids all seem happy and well adjusted I've decided that it's not my place to judge.

I never intend to spank because I think on the whole it does more harm than good, but I WAS an abused child, and later an abused partner. My experiences were NOTHING AT ALL like the occasional spank that my friends describe from their childhoods, nor anything like the occasional spank my friends give THEIR kids now. Equating them is frankly offensive to me.

ETA: I agree that hitting is never right. I just think doing something wrong =/= abuse.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

I just don't understand the difference between hitting a child and hitting an adult. Is it okay for a man to just "slap" a woman? For a boss to just "slap" and enployee? I don't doubt that these parents love their children, but I can't consider them well rounded when they are repeating the cycle with their own kids. Spanking destroyed me. It really did. To me, it's offensive not to consider it abuse.

It's not about judging them. There are many behaviors that I don't want to be around but I will gladly help those individuals in a healing setting, but I don't want it in my personal life. I have to keep my distance.


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## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

I guess its horses for courses.

I was spanked as a child. Honestly, it didn't bother me that much. Its not something that i see as ok and nor do my parents nowadays. The thing is, it was never accompanied by emotional abuse.

I have noticed among friends that some people seem to really struggle with having been hit as a child, and others don't much care. I do sometimes wonder why that should be, whether there are differences in experience or whether its a personality thing. Neither me nor my brother care, we recognise that our parents were under stress, that that is how they were brought up themselves, and that people are human and fallible.

Peopele are so complex. I don't hit my kids but my god, i do enough else wrong. Some of the best parents, the most inspirational parents, i know, have lost it and hit their kids. Generally, this has been because they are under a lot of stress, stress that I have largely escaped. For me there is not a line that separates those who have hit their kids and those who haven't. Almost all parents, ime, are trying to be the best they can. Not hitting does not always correlate to inspirational parenting either.

Actually i have to say, nowadays most of my friend are not my friends because we necessarily share parenting ideas-sometimes we do, but if not, thats ok. I don't tend to spend ages talking to friends about the kids unless someone is going through a tricky time.


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

I agree to this so much. It isn't the same thing and it offends me to try and equate it. Adults and children don't have equal partner relationships. Adults are supposed to guide children and teach them right from wrong and while I don't like spanking or agree with it or believe it works, I think it's a social issue that divides people when we need to try harder to come closer together as a society. A mom spanking her child thinks she is using it as a tool to teach her child right and wrong and one of her jobs is to teach that child right form wrong, she is just approaching it the wrong way. A man's job is not to teach a woman right from wrong, he never has to use a tool, how ever misguided, to do that because it's not an appropriate role in an adult romantic relationship.

I agree with the moms who have said it depends on how the parent treats the child overall, if I see the love and the connection then I can probably over look it, I don't like it, but I don't feel all judge-y either. Everyone has their own life to answer for and when I see someone trying to be a good mom/dad but they use spanking that is totally not a good enough reason for me. I won't like it, it will frustrate me, it will anger me, but I don't have to like all of someone's choices to love them and see the good things they have to offer.

my 2 cents!


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## bayoumel (Aug 27, 2013)

The minute it comes up in conversation that they discipline their children, or if I see it or it is alluded to in any way. The buck stops here. DONE.


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## Nightwish (Sep 9, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> I agree to this so much. It isn't the same thing and it offends me to try and equate it. Adults and children don't have equal partner relationships. Adults are supposed to guide children and teach them right from wrong and while I don't like spanking or agree with it or believe it works, I think it's a social issue that divides people when we need to try harder to come closer together as a society. A mom spanking her child thinks she is using it as a tool to teach her child right and wrong and one of her jobs is to teach that child right form wrong, she is just approaching it the wrong way. A man's job is not to teach a woman right from wrong, he never has to use a tool, how ever misguided, to do that because it's not an appropriate role in an adult romantic relationship.
> 
> ...


But it IS the same thing. I know quite a few couples where the man hits his wife or girlfriend (again, I'm not talking about abuse) and I know they love their wives very much. And they honestly believe that hitting was provoked, or everyone does it, or that it helps keep the woman in line.


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## Nightwish (Sep 9, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fillyjonk*
> 
> okay, here, to my mind , is the difference between a kid and an adult, and the difference between hitting an adult woman (or man) and a child.
> 
> ...


That's a very good point.


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

I just don't see life in black and white like that. I know a lot of people who wouldn't want to be friends with a former drug addict either, but that's what I am. I know people who would t want to be friends with an ex-con, but my husband is. I know and love people who spank and I don't like it, I love the "sinner" not the "sin"


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

I'm a former drug addict too and I volunteered at the local prison teaching writing. I wasn't allowed to know what they did but they were serious offenders and one of them was there for life. It was the best writing class and I learned a lot more from them than they ever did from me. I also worked as a social worker in a detention program for teenagers. We're talking attempted murderers and grand theft.

I really believe in redemption, and I would certainly be close friends with a former spanker who realized it wasn't right. But I don't want it in my personal life or my children's lives. I would certainly counsel those that did it in my professional life, though. Like I said, it's not about judgement. It's about the kind of energy I want in my personal life.


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## Lulu0910 (Feb 6, 2012)

When dh is watching a movie and its violent or excessive curse words. I immediately move my DS to another room. I'm not an angel I have hit my ds in the past and not one day goes by that I don't regret it or feel like a horrible person. Today thanks to talking to other moms and a therapist. I am able to not "go there" walk away if needed. I think you should help and set an example of how effective gentle discipline works vrs hitting.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i really thought i wasnt a biased person until i became a mother.

i also discovered i was much more biased when dd was younger. biased not in the sense i wont be friends with that person, but it was painful for me. i just could not be around them. what they did was always present for me. at that time i had this idea that there was just one way to parent. a kind way. how can not get that your 2 year old does not get it. that they are not being malicious.

as dd grew up i grew with her too. i was so surprised at myself that i could still be friends with a 180 degrees different parenting style where i felt it wasnt kind enough. it STILL didnt sit well with me - but i discovered i could still be friends with that mom and do playdates with her family.


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## pepperedmoth (Jun 14, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> I just don't see life in black and white like that. I know a lot of people who wouldn't want to be friends with a former drug addict either, but that's what I am. I know people who would t want to be friends with an ex-con, but my husband is. I know and love people who spank and I don't like it, I love the "sinner" not the "sin"


Yes. You said the essence of what I was trying to get at, but you said it much more eloquently.

I think I got sooooooo upset at this post because if you boil my core beliefs down to a nugget, it's that loving and loving and loving each other despite everything is pretty much the most important thing we can do in life. And so I really react to the idea that love might not be able to cross lines of belief.

We all do things that other parents think are wrong. I'm gonna vaccinate! Probably 90% of the people on this board think THAT'S wrong. But pulling that out and placing it in a vacuum and deciding to end a friendship over it . . . I'm hearing that it's not judgment, it's about what we want in our lives . . . and I guess on some level I get that . . . but on another level I'm puzzled as to how somehow spanking ends up as the clear line in the sand? Like, would any of us ditch a friendship if the person joined the army? But shooting people is OK and spanking isn't? How do we decide? Where does it end?

And if we keep cutting out and cutting out and cutting out the friends we disagree with or who have bad energy --- the ones who spank, the ones who CIO, the people who don't believe in gay marriage, the people who don't believe in global warming, the people who are 'materialistic,' the people who support GMOs, people who circumcise, the people who support war, any member of the armed forces, people who believe in the death penalty, people who don't own their privilege, etc., etc., etc . . .

. . . who's left for us to love? What does it even mean to love at all if we can't love across lines of culture and class and belief? (on a lighter note, how can we expect Congress to put on their big-kid pants and reach across the aisle when we can't do it ourselves?)

And really, how many of us have lives that would stand to such scrutiny, in the end?

My life wouldn't. I can be a lazy, hypocritical, judgmental, whiny, complacent, self-indulgent, arrogant, prig. Thank GOD I have friends who forgive me and love me all the same.

okay, pregnancy hormones going a little wild there. But yeah. That's how I feel.


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

D**n girl, you said it better than I did, for sure. Way to speak from the heart!

At this place in my life, a place where I am much more happy and content, I live and let live for the most part. I love the types of people you mentioned above in your post in my real life relationships. My next door neighbor is a marine, he has deployed, he has been in war. My mom is against gay marriage or gay people being in involved positions in her church. My brother plays violent video games, I hate that. My step-dad is a sex addict who has in the past been addicted to porn. I mean the list goes on and on. My cousin is in jail. This is real life. Both of my in laws are dead, dead, from being drug addicts. My sister in law spanks, yells and trys her best to hang on. Both of her kids are out of wed lock with different guys. Same for my bf.

I've kind of moved on from judgements in my relationships, I don't have it like that to cloud up my life in that way. But you love who you love.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

I just want to make it clear that I really do love everyone! But I also don't want toxic behavior in my life or my children's lives. I will defend people, especially the down trodden. I defend drug addicts and have thought about having a career in recovery someday. I believe most of the convicts I worked with were sex offenders. I still believed they deserved to be treated with respect and love, though I wouldn't want them in my personal life.

Not wanting someone's energy in your life is not the same as not loving them and its not the same as judging them. You can love someone from afar. You can also love someone and try and help them heal but keep them at a distance.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i have to say though, one thing this thread reminded me of - is as a person i grow all the time.

i am not the same person at different periods of time.

overall i am a v. open person. fussing over little things imho is just too much trouble. i really dont care. so sometimes i am ok about something - not because i am great and awesome. its because i really dont have the time to make that an issue. sadly its not important. its a way of saying for instance i am pro gay marriage not because of equality or some other higher reason, but really people. running from pillar to post i now have to try and ignore gay people. that just does not make sense. what is the big deal there. kwim?

so while i may be 'nice' overall - i have my own issues.

i try to work on them - if even i am aware of them. not just parenting but in life. sometimes some kind of crisis opens up my own challenges. and somehow something shows me the world through the other person's lives and its easy for me to understand their point of view.

however coming from a community based culture in the east, it is still very hard for me to accept the isolating culture we have here. there are certain norms i take for granted that are shocking for some.

so even though i think i am unbiased, i really am not. which is why i love the entrance of the Museum of Tolerance in LA, CA.


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## pepperedmoth (Jun 14, 2013)

Put like that, it makes plenty of sense, dalia. .


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## earthmama4 (Oct 13, 2008)

So if spanking is abuse, is time out abandonment? I think that is extreme. I try not to be so black and white. If inflicting any degree of pain = abuse then lots of kids are actually abusing their moms. How many times on the GD board do moms talk about being hit, kicked, scratched, bit, hair pulled, etc? I have gotten punched dead in the face by a tantruming 4 yr old, breaking my sunglasses. Relationships are messy things, as much as we wish otherwise. All I ask of myself and my loved ones is that we are trying our best with abilities and information we have at the time. Sometimes moms have to go through ugly periods with their kids to realize that changes need to be made or that self-work is needed. Not many of us start out on this journey will all the tools we need to make it to the end unscathed.

It seems that for some who were treated badly in childhood, seeing a child be disciplined harshly may trigger bad feelings and memories. I get that. And for that person being friends with someone who "triggers" them on a regular basis, that is probably not a good idea for their own personal well being. I probably couldn't be friends with someone who smoked weed recreationally because of my family history of drug addiction and all that drama. Someone who looks too much like my abusive ex may be the nicest guy in the world but I'll avoid that person *shudder*. But I get that its *my* issue and nothing really about them.


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## LLQ1011 (Mar 28, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nightwish*
> 
> But it IS the same thing. I know quite a few couples where the man hits his wife or girlfriend (again, I'm not talking about abuse) and I know they love their wives very much. And they honestly believe that hitting was provoked, or everyone does it, or that it helps keep the woman in line.


Hitting a spouse is abuse. period.


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## Nightwish (Sep 9, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LLQ1011*
> 
> Hitting a spouse is abuse. period.


ok, let's say it's abuse. What about hitting a disabled person? What about an elderly person? What about ANY situation where you are in a position of power over someone who's weaker than you?
Oh, but there is an exception to this. If a parent hits a child, it's called "discipline". It's not hitting, much less abuse (god forbid) it's "spanking". We are not supposed to judge. None of our business. Live and let live.
I remember when I was little in a different culture I heard a man "arguing" with his wife. Nobody interfered. Live and let live, right?


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *earthmama4*
> 
> So if spanking is abuse, is time out abandonment?
> 
> ...


This is such a good point. I am in recovery from drug and alcohol addiction and I have certainly moved away from relationships where someone is still in active addiction, that's not something I can have in my life. I'm glad you pointed this because I can really understand that being a trigger for someone who was spanked and has some traumatic feelings about it.

Where I'm coming from is I was spanked a handful of times between my mom and my grandma, who raised me, and it's not an issue for me. I don't harbor any ill will about it. They remain very firm that it was safety issues like running across the street to my little friend's house without looking first and I understand the emotion behind it. I love and respect them as parents and it doesn't chafe me in the least.

The moms I know who currently spank are moms who are in my family and I see the places where they are coming from in their lives with their experiences and I know they are doing the best they can with what they have. I think recovery and therapy has helped me go from seeing things so black and white, like I used to, to being able to see that we are all just human. I used to be so hard on my mom until I got through therapy and could see that she is just a person, a person who happens to be a mom, and she just did the best she could. After getting that, which was huge for me, I have an easier time with that in my other relationships.

But, I still wouldn't choose to be friends with someone in active addiction. Just can't do it.


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## earthmama4 (Oct 13, 2008)

Thank you for this. I am glad someone heard me in the way it was intended. I guess that is what I meant by maturity, not that it really has to do with age, but just learning and growing as a person and seeing things with new eyes based on our experiences and our own mistakes and moving past them. I too used to be very black and white about things too but Life is a big fan of teaching me to appreciate the gray areas. I wish you the best in your recovery!

And as for the time-out thread..I have read Alfie Cohen so I know the direction it is probably going in...I am not even going there. I am morbidly curious about the number of kiddos the vehemently anti-timeout or anti-reward/punishment moms have! I was a perfect idealist mom when I had one or two kids too.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Hmmm... I don't do time outs and I only have one child (another on the way). I gotta say I feel a little judged by your comment and by your laughing smiley. But I digress..

I wanted to say that I do believe that most people who spank are doing the best they can at the moment. Who knows what is going on in their life or what they are dealing with. Ultimately, they are victims as well, trying to make due in a tough world.

But, yes, I still think spanking is abuse. The fact that they are having a hard time or are just doing what they know does not change what spanking is. It's hitting. It's hitting someone who trusts you more than anyone. It's hitting someone who doesn't have the choice to leave. It's hitting someone who is small and vulnerable. And it's really confusing; on one hand we tell our children to NEVER let anyone touch them in a way they don't want to be touched...except their parents. They can hit you in an erogenous zone and society will turn a blind eye.

The nature of how people treat themselves or others is usually defined by their own experiences. As their level of awareness goes up they can change, but it's not easy. I have great compassion for people in all walks of life, because there was a time when I was a truly messed up person and I thank GOD I did not have children at that time. Where someone is in life does not change the definition of what they do. I wish it did, because I have done things I truly regret. But my troubled soul did not change the fact that I hurt others.

My grandfather whipped my mom in front of her entire school when she was a little girl. This was in the 1950s, in Guatemala, in a very religious community. He believed, at the time, that what he was doing was right. My mom believes this as well. But then many years later he changed and he knew it wasn't right. But it was still abuse regardless of how he, my mom, or society saw it. It will always be what it was, no matter what the justification is. It doesn't mean my grandfather was a bad person, but just because he was a good person doesn't mean he didn't really damage my mom.


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## earthmama4 (Oct 13, 2008)

I don't mean to judge you and the laughing smiley is me laughing at myself and how high my ideals were back then. Reality has struck me down hard. I could go on as to all the hows and whys I can't be the mom I planned to be at that early stage, but I won't. I know I am doing the best I can and I have met their needs, however imperfectly at times. I still struggle with extremely high ideals and feel terribly guilty anytime I feel I have been harsh with my kids in words or actions. I think this thread has bothered me a bit because its perpetuating an idealism that was once internalized by me and contributed to feelings of inadequacy. I can't allow myself to turn those feelings onto someone else because I know the pain it has caused me to feel less than worthy as a parent despite everyone telling me I am actually really amazing, patient, understanding, etc and that Ghandi himself would probably chase these boys around with a stick. (Not that I have done that BTW!)

Truly I do get annoyed with parents who time out for every little thing instead of simply talking to or redirecting a child or meeting a need. But if I need to, do I separate an out of control or inappropriately behaving kid? You bet. Clear boundaries are important for my kids to learn. And I do differentiate in my mind a parent giving a swat on the bum or a slap on the hand and one who punches or kicks or pulls their child's hair? Absolutely. I think a PP said an important point, that the emotional climate + the physical nature of the discipline is what makes it traumatic. In your moms case, that event was scarring partially because it was so humiliating. Not saying it was ok to do at home either, but to do in front of the school added an emotionally traumatizing component. To assume that all children receiving a swat on the bum feel frightened or violated or helpless is too broad. I have seen kids laugh in response to a spanking. Not nervous laughter but genuinely finding it funny. They think mom and dad are playing a game. My own kids sometimes laugh at me when I get really angry. They think I look funny! I probably do. Kids can respond that way when they are raised in an atmosphere of trust. I don't think kids who are never spanked and never timed-out have a monopoly on healthy trust-based relationships with their parents.


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nightwish*
> 
> I remember when I was little in a different culture I heard a man "arguing" with his wife. Nobody interfered. Live and let live, right?


I don't know what culture to you is a different culture but I live in America and I am American and my neighbors in the 6-plex next door are mostly all alcoholics and there is one couple that argue, yell, fight, scream, you name it quite frequently and yes, I do live and let live. I don't have time to be in their ridiculous business all the time. I have to let them live their own life, what in the world can I do about it? They call the cops on each other enough as it is and where I live the cops certainly have better things to do with their time.


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *dalia* 

Hmmm... I don't do time outs and I only have one child (another on the way). I gotta say I feel a little judged by your comment and by your laughing smiley. But I digress..

*But for you what she said is true, you do only have one child, your experience is coming from that place. I do, too, actually, and I am sure as the day is long that if I had five like she does I would have a different perspective about this conversation. I don't what the difference would be but surely that experience would color my perspective. My bf has two kids and her first was a very easy baby, very cuddly, very sweet and just not a crier, not rambunctious or anything. Along came her second and he has been the total opposite. Screams and crys upon waking up, still, and he is 3, just super temperamental, easily upset, as a super hard time listening and likes to do the opposite of what he is told, with glee. She has really really changed as a mom with this experience. I actually used to think she was a better mom than me, when our kids were little, I just couldn't understand how she seemed so cool as a cucumber all the time and I was running after my little goose-on-wheels like a chicken with my head cut off. Now I see that the temperament of your child can make such a HUGE difference in how you feel as a mom. She is just a very different mom now. So I can only imagine the variable of adding three more kids to her brood? I know it would change her all the more.*

But, yes, I still think spanking is abuse. The fact that they are having a hard time or are just doing what they know does not change what spanking is. It's hitting. It's hitting someone who trusts you more than anyone. It's hitting someone who doesn't have the choice to leave. It's hitting someone who is small and vulnerable. And it's really confusing; on one hand we tell our children to NEVER let anyone touch them in a way they don't want to be touched...except their parents. They can hit you in an erogenous zone and society will turn a blind eye.

*I think spanking is abusive, too, but I think a lot of behaviors in relationships are abusive. I think my step-dad having an affair on my mom while he was deployed is pretty abusive, but she is still with him, he is still my step-dad and I don't just cut people out of my life because they do things I don't like. I feel like that's the kind of grace I want extended to me, it's the sort of grace I think we all extend to our own children and it's the kind of grace I extend to my friends and loved ones. *


> *All I am saying is I am happier on this side of the fence, in my own life this is what works for me. *


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *earthmama4*
> . I know I am doing the best I can and I have met their needs, however imperfectly at times. I still struggle with extremely high ideals and feel terribly guilty anytime I feel I have been harsh with my kids in words or actions. I think this thread has bothered me a bit because its perpetuating an idealism that was once internalized by me and contributed to feelings of inadequacy.
> 
> *I really, really relate to this. People compliment me frequently on my daughter's behavior, my job as a mom and our family, but I have always held myself to a near impossible standard, and others too. I shudder to remember the rants I have gone on to friends who I didn't imagine could feel another way then I did, heavens no. I offended so many with my holier than thou attitude assuming everyone would agree.*
> ...


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

deleted by poster


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Earthmama, thank you so much for your response. I understand what you were trying to say. I have to say that I basically live in a perpetual state of guilt LOL. Sometimes I feel like I am totally screwing up my little boy. I tell my husband that I "suck" as a parent. I spend a lot of time apologizing to my kid, especially now because I'm in my third tri and I'm a mess with a super short fuse. Sigh.... I do wish I was better. I think intent makes a big difference in parenting, though. If a friend came to me and said, "Dalia, I hit my kid and I feel awful." I would NOT end that friendship. But if a friend came to me and said, "Johnny put his hand in the cookie jar so he got a spanking! He won't be doing that again!" I have to admit I would be distancing myself. It's too much of a break in what I know to be true. I just can't relate.

For what it's worth I definitely thought I would be a different parent. I have only one child at the moment but let me tell you he is A LOT of child. He's very spirited with super high energy and a strong will. He's giving me a run for my money big time. I'm lucky to have a bit of help with him because my husband is gone most of the time with work. My biggest problem is that I yell more than I want to. I try really hard, though.

I'm hoping for the strong silent type for the next one LMAO!!!!!


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## Nightwish (Sep 9, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> I don't know what culture to you is a different culture but I live in America and I am American and my neighbors in the 6-plex next door are mostly all alcoholics and there is one couple that argue, yell, fight, scream, you name it quite frequently and yes, I do live and let live. I don't have time to be in their ridiculous business all the time. I have to let them live their own life, what in the world can I do about it? They call the cops on each other enough as it is and where I live the cops certainly have better things to do with their time.


lol I only mentioned that I'm from a different culture because I thought it would come as a shock on this website that no one intervened in a domestic fight. Apparently I was wrong. People are the same all over the world.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nightwish*
> 
> lol I only mentioned that I'm from a different culture because I thought it would come as a shock on this website that no one intervened in a domestic fight. Apparently I was wrong. People are the same all over the world.


I used to live next door to some folks who fought all the time. One time the woman came over and she had a black eye and was beat up. After that, I realized he was hurting her and called the cops when they fought. She hated me for it but there was no way I was gonna let that happen on my watch!


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## LorienIslay (Oct 21, 2012)

Quote:


> Peopele are so complex. I don't hit my kids but my god, i do enough else wrong. Some of the best parents, the most inspirational parents, i know, have lost it and hit their kids. Generally, this has been because they are under a lot of stress, stress that I have largely escaped. For me there is not a line that separates those who have hit their kids and those who haven't. Almost all parents, ime, are trying to be the best they can. Not hitting does not always correlate to inspirational parenting either.


Exactly. We do the very best we can, as parents and as people. Sometimes we don't recycle. Sometimes we hit in anger. I think it's what happens after that matters most, though -- do we resolve to do better and apologize to our kid, or do we give ourselves high fives (or worst yet, do we think nothing of it). I hold myself to a high standard, and sometimes I fail. But I always try to do better. For me, the line for friendship is exactly that -- do they see the fault, and do they try to do better next time?


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## LLQ1011 (Mar 28, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nightwish*
> 
> ok, let's say it's abuse. What about hitting a disabled person? What about an elderly person? What about ANY situation where you are in a position of power over someone who's weaker than you?
> Oh, but there is an exception to this. If a parent hits a child, it's called "discipline". It's not hitting, much less abuse (god forbid) it's "spanking". We are not supposed to judge. None of our business. Live and let live.
> I remember when I was little in a different culture I heard a man "arguing" with his wife. Nobody interfered. Live and let live, right?


Wait i read your comment out of context. I thought we were justifying it. I totally agree.


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nightwish*
> 
> lol I only mentioned that I'm from a different culture because I thought it would come as a shock on this website that no one intervened in a domestic fight. Apparently I was wrong. People are the same all over the world.


Am I right that you're implying that I am a bad person for not calling the cops every time my neighbors get drunk (daily) and fight with each other?


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> I used to live next door to some folks who fought all the time. One time the woman came over and she had a black eye and was beat up. After that, I realized he was hurting her and called the cops when they fought. She hated me for it but there was no way I was gonna let that happen on my watch!


Like, I live in the inner city, these people I personally live next door to are toxic, crack smoking thieves who don't work, stole a bike from me and are up all times of the day and night yelling, fighting, you name it they do it, this isn't some nice seeming couple, there is no pretention of nice going on here. This woman will punch this man in the face, call the police and then blame another neighbor, another crack smoking neighbor to high and drunk to make a cohesive argument, and get away with it. There are layers at play here. It's a cess-pool sort of scenario. They are a sort of bumbling drunken gang roaming the neighborhood forgetting whose wrong or right, fighting, stealing things from each other, calling the cops on each other.

I am not on watch, I am trying to AVOID them, not inject myself in their lives. BTDT, learned my lesson. I am not saying I never would call the police, but I am also not watching out my window trying to see what's going on, phone in hand. I have been burned by too many people whose lives are chaos to be sucked down that path, I am in recovery myself and I have to focus on what's best for myself and my family!

I used to be all over that sort of stuff, I dunno, maybe I am jaded. I just don't even see that sort of stuff the way I used to.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

I would only call the cops if I felt someone was getting hurt. The woman eventually became pregnant. It was not a good situation.


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

I mean people are getting hurt over there, day in and day out there is drama, violence...whatever. I just can't care about it. I guess there are some siutations where I might do more but obvs. there are some where I wouldn't.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i am so so so grateful i dont have to live next to domestic violence or even in the neighborhood.

but i had to deal with friends who hung on.

the thing about domestic violence that is so so so hard for me to bear is to see the woman go back over and over and over again. until something really bad happened. even then for some, not so. the mom was hurt, kids were hurt. yet the mother went back again and again (talking thru the eyes of a domestic violence counsellor who finally couldnt handle it and left her job).

the domestic violence is the hard one for me to take. the woman who keeps going back. i can handle parenting stuff.


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Yeah, I don't wanna hi-jack the thread anymore, but I know what you mean. Of course it sucks, like I said, I think I am just jaded, I live in a bad neighborhood by some degree of necessity and I like my house.

But I will say, there are some women who I can see as a victim and then there are situations like the one next door where I don't really see this woman as such, she is just as equally the instigator.

And that's all I'm gonna say, let's move on back to the friends discussion, right?!


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## gglups (Aug 6, 2013)

This topic has gone off on a different route. I think the person who asked the question really felt passionately about the spanking, and CIO, which to me says, it is pretty obvious that she would have a hard time being friends with someone who does that. She does not seem to even want to discuss it any fashion so I think you have your answer.

For me personally, I have a girlfriend who parents very differently from me and has a hard time saying no to her kids, which results in their behaviour negatively effecting my kids (hitting, not sharing, grabbing etc.) and as a result we see them very little with kids but her and I go out a lot on girls nights, or catch dinner once in a while. I don't know any one who does things that offend me so much that I would choose not to be friends with them, but my friends seem to come from a background similar to mine, therefore, I don't run into any of those issues.

However from your responses and your question I think you have your answer.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nightwish*
> 
> Would you be friends with a man who hits his wife? I'm not talking about abuse, just a slap here and there.
> Who are we to judge?


I hate this argument, because there are many things that must be done to children that would never be done to adults.

Would you be friends with a woman who holds her husband down, takes off his pants and wipes his ass without permission, sometimes in the public part of restrooms if there's nowhere better to do it?

Would you be friends with a man who micromanaged his wife- deciding what clothes she's allowed to wear, dressing her, deciding what she's allowed to use and when she's allowed to use it, scheduling things for her with limited input, etc?

Would you be friends with someone who refuses to allow her husband to eat solid food and forces him to suck her tits in public if he wants to eat?

All of those are things that parents have to do at some point or another, but that would be horrible to see being done to another adult or even an older child.

I'm *not* saying that slapping/spanking children is okay. I'm pointing out why this argument is so flawed. It makes people who agree get to nod on smugly, while those who disagree roll their eyes and pick it apart easily. And, yes, plenty of times I see someone defend such punishment methods- this is exactly their argument. "No, I wouldn't treat an adult like that- but here's all these things I have to do to my child to be able to properly raise them that I wouldn't do to an adult."

(I'd also like to point out that were the question reversed to "Would you be friends with a woman who slapped her husband occasionally?", far more people would answer "Yes"- and we really need to think about that as well)

I was spanked 6 times in my life. There are different degrees of spanking- I wasn't laid over my mom's knee, pants pulled down, and smacked with a belt or wooden spoon until I couldn't sit down without being in pain. A single smack that is more surprising than painful is in a completely different league. And I agree with a PP- while it may not be right, to call that abuse is completely demeaning to those who've suffered actual abuse. My mother was emotionally abusive. I've been in abusive relationships. The spanks my mother gave me? NOT abuse.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LLQ1011*
> 
> Hitting a spouse is abuse. period.


Unless it's consensual. Consensual activity is not abuse. And you might scoff- but it's a very, very important distinction.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nightwish*
> 
> lol I only mentioned that I'm from a different culture because I thought it would come as a shock on this website that no one intervened in a domestic fight. Apparently I was wrong. People are the same all over the world.


People damn well better not intervene when my partner and I are fighting. It's *our* relationship, we know what we're doing, we can handle it. If someone is concerned that either of us are being abused or being abusive- they can come to one/both of us privately and address the concern rationally and as adults.

Unless it looks like the fight is turning abusive- like another poster mentioned happened- stepping into someone else's fight is just incredibly patronizing and rude. Most adults don't even step into every child's fight, not unless the fight gets out of hand, because children have to learn how to work out their differences. Adults do the same- most fights between adults don't end in abuse.

You may have had a point- but you lost it. Apparently you think that no two people can be allowed to disagree with each other without needing a third person party to step in and mediates. What a ridiculous idea.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Sillysapling, your counter argument is not valid. All of the examples you list must be done to care for a child. A child does not need to be hit to be cared for. You can't really compare things that are needed to something that isn't needed (hitting).


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## Jennyanydots (Sep 8, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> Sillysapling, your counter argument is not valid. All of the examples you list must be done to care for a child. A child does not need to be hit to be cared for. You can't really compare things that are needed to something that isn't needed (hitting).


It's really harsh to call someone's argument "not valid," don't you think?

I think she made a great point.


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## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> Sillysapling, your counter argument is not valid. All of the examples you list must be done to care for a child. A child does not need to be hit to be cared for. You can't really compare things that are needed to something that isn't needed (hitting).


nope I really disagree. I think sillysapling actually put her point very well, and really made me think about my position here.

I think also, there is a grey area in some of the things we do, whether or not they are caring for a child directly, or managing their behaviour so as to minimise their impact on others (and that is necessary at times if you want to live in society. One of the points I take from SS post is that we don't generally manage our spouses behaviours, and society as a whole does not see us as having either a legal or a moral obligation to do so.

I don't see SS as arguing for hitting kids. I think she's arguing for perspective, and a distinction between losing it and swatting a kid, and systematic out of control normal abuse. I think that any system that lumps a sleep deprived parent with a kid who has gone too far for the nth time and has lost control with someone who deliberately premeditates abuse helps absolutely no one. It does not stop kids getting hit , which is what actually matters here.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jennyanydots*
> 
> It's really harsh to call someone's argument "not valid," don't you think?
> 
> I think she made a great point.


I don't think it's harsh and I certainly didn't mean it that way. It wasn't meant to be personal at all since I'm only attacking the argument. If I called her argument "ridiculous" that would be harsh because in actuality I'm attacking her and not really making a point in the process. What I meant by not valid is that the structure of the argument doesn't work because she's talking about apples and oranges. That's all I meant. I didn't mean to "invalidate" her opinion, if that makes sense.

I don't think I would ever advocate for removing a child from the home for spanking, but I think society as a whole would come a long way if we started looking at any form of hitting as abusive, regardless of the victim's age. My mom spanked me out of frustration with an open hand. She also once pulled me by the hair from outside to inside the house. Neither of those things were good and I'm sure she felt bad afterwards. My dad hit me with a belt. Very, very bad. When he was dying he apologized. I loved him very much. I knew his heart. But... I still call those things abuse. I consider myself abused as a kid. That's how it feels to me. I was greatly damaged by these things. And if in a moment of total frustration I hit my child, I would call it abuse as well. That's just how I see it.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

And my using the term "not valid" comes from having a debate and philosophy background. It's not meant to be personal. I can see why it comes off that way, though.


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## Nightwish (Sep 9, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sillysapling*
> 
> I hate this argument, because there are many things that must be done to children that would never be done to adults.
> 
> ...


your arguments are not valid. I n adult can do all of the things you mentioned to another adult, if the latter is physically and/or mentally incapacitated and depending on the former adult for basic care. BuExactly the same way a child is dependent on their caregiver. Let's compare apples to apples here.

However in NO situation is hitting another adult acceptable.

And I ccouldn't help laughing at your comment that people should not interfere in a fight between you and your spouse. I don't think you really witnessed abuse.


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## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

I really think it might be best to stop saying someone's argument is not valid. That's pretty inflammatory and gets us nowhere. Its not conductive to debate.

What I'm interested in is not what labels we choose to use for a behaviour but how we can stop behaviour (smacking/spanking) that we all agree is wrong.

I think to address any behaviour we generally need to look at causes, the causes of systemic abuse differ from an end-of-tether smack, and so its not productive to lump them in together. A parent who believes spanking works differs from a parent who believes it doesn't but has lashed out. A parent who has a kid who sometimes does, realistically, need restraining, and fights back, and then that kid gets hurt-different again.

More generally, I think its far more helpful to see us all as parents trying to do better. I have literally no idea what leads up to a parent hitting a child but have enough friends who have done it and regretted it to know its not a simple matter of being an evil abuser. I think most parents do not plan to hit their kids or want to hit their kids.

Our goal should be to reduce the amount of hitting of kids, not to make ourselves feel better by semantically distancing ourselves from those who have ended up hitting their kids.

Re abuse. I don't think its a terribly productive word. Its entirely a negative, labelling word. Its not the kind of word that gives you hope to improve. And its so subjective.I mean, I know parents who consider it abuse to insist their kid brushes their teeth. I don't mean hold them down or anything, I mean, say, to a 3 year old, "right, its time to brush your teeth". They would consider that borderline emotional abuse







. YMMV is all I can say. I know if someone were to call me abusive for telling my kids to brush their teeth I would not be especially interested in continuing that conversation.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Let me just be clear (again) and say that I don't think people who spank are "evil". I think they do need help, compassion, and understanding. I mean my own parents did it! I love them with all my heart.

I just think we need to call it what it is. It's hitting. Hitting is not okay. It's abuse. The first step in changing a behavior is seeing the reality of what it is.

I don't want people who spank in my every day family/personal life, if they are going to do it in front of my kids especially. I will keep them at a distance. This does not mean they are not deserving of love, compassion, understanding and help. They need help. They need education. I will support them any way I can. But that support does not mean I will allow their behavior to effect my family. My own sister has spanked her kids but she knows I don't agree. If she were to do that in front of my children you can bet we would be leaving. I just cannot look the other way. This does not mean I don't love her or that I think I'm better than her or that I'm sitting on a throne judging her. Who knows what MY future will bring? Maybe one day I will (god forbid) freak out and hit my child. It would be awful. I would need help.


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## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

yk dalia I wonder whether we really do disagree that much. If you are talking about a family who deliberately spanks because they believe it to be an acceptable form of discipline, then I am kind of with you. I admit I had a friend a while back who did this-in secret, never discussed, and "only" a slap to the hand but still, too much for me-and I was really ok when the friendship fizzled out because I felt uncomfortable with it. I felt really bad for the kids though. Lovely Waldorf parents, btw, with an etsy shop and the rest, a feature at Waldorf fairs. It is hard.

And actually I agree that if I hit my kids I'd see it as abuse, or potential abuse at least, for myself. I don't know how helpful it would be for someone else to label it as such though. I think it would be a lot better to see it as something that absolutely should not have happened, but rather spend the time working through it. I've worked with women at the absolute bottom, who certainly wanted to improve as parents-desperately-but needed so much in place to even have the headspace to do that, that for the good of the family the best thing was to keep a dialogue open. And, as their caseworker, I wasn't really the person they needed that support from. They needed ongoing, critical support from their family, their friends.

What I'm primarily concerned with is a situation where a mother, in need of support, whether that is because of her own poor coping ability or something to do with the kid, then loses friends because of it. So a one off, and a sign of her needing support.

Like I say, I avoided pursing a friendship where I knew the kids were being hit, because I couldn't really deal with what felt like hypocrisy. That was systematic, which seems to be what you are talking about, and it seems very different to me. Needlefelting acorn babies on one hand and calling your kids in for a slap on the hand because they took an apple from the fridge on the other. eew. TBH, there's no excuse there really for me, for an educated, non-abused, well off parent to think hitting is ok. To lose it, yes, because they are human. And then to look and what happened and do whatever it takes to make sure there's no repeat. To philosophically defend hitting as a punishment, nope.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Yes, Fillyjonk, I think we do agree. I was sort of thinking that before but was too prideful to say it!!! (Insert smiley hiding under chair)

In fact, I had a friend the other day, a new friend, tell me she spanks her little two year old. I was shocked. I mean, the kid can barely talk. But... They are young parents, and as the conversation continued I could tell she didn't feel good about it and she started asking my opinion. I get a feeling it was her husband's idea and simply because that's how he was raised. That's got to be such a tough situation. Anyway, I did say gently and in front of them both what I think about spanking and how it damaged me. They are still my friends but we will see how it develops. If they hit the little one in front of me I won't be able to handle that. They are Waldorf parents too!!

There is an amount of admiration I have for those who can keep spanking parents in their lives as close friends. I just can't do it. I won't judge someone that does but I also can't call spanking something that doesn't feel right to me. And I don't want to be judged as a bad person or an inexperienced/naive parent because I don't want it around me or my kids.

Yeah, and those folks who systematically spank because they think it's a great form of discipline sanctioned by God or whatever... Ewwwwww... I got little love in my heart for them. I try, though... I just have a lot more love for people who accidentally "lose it" occasionally than someone who does it with full awareness. Yuck. :-(


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

The dealbreaker for me is more of if the person is nasty emotionally.

I know quite a few people who crow about anti-spanking but punch their kids (and everyone else around them) verbally/emotionally instead. To me it's not the act but the personality and character.

And my kids are now 10/10/11 (though I've got another one due in March now, suprise!). It's a better gauge. Few people are going to try to belt kids bigger than them in public, so you just don't know. I've been shocked at how some of the people who just talk so nastily to their tween kids are also very keen to let you know how they don't spank like those bad people do. I live in a pretty crunchy area though, where spanking is kind of a don't. Whatever makes them feel better about themselves, I guess.

So yeah, I have friendships, and close ones, with people way different in parenting than me. I even am friends with other parents who my kids don't know and we don't get the kids together because we're friends in different contexts. There are other friends of mine that are parents that I have *no clue* as to their parenting style because we don't talk about it, we're busy with talking about our biz and things we enjoy together. I'm kind of not looking forward to things having to revolve so thoroughly around baby talk again, but...it's just part of the deal when you've got younger kids.


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