# talking to dh about not circing



## kindofcrunchy82 (Jan 11, 2012)

Hi all,

I am 11 weeks and we will be finding out the gender shortly. I personally do not practice circumcision for my male children but I have never brought up this subject to my dh. I do not know how he feels either way. He is circ'd but he is fairly open minded but then again I do not know if the male anatomy will be an area of discussion or if he has a set mindset. When I had my oldest ds, my ex was against circing, in addition I did research as I was on the fence about it. Ironically while in a college course there were a couple soon to be fathers and one flat out said circing was cruel, another circed his son, we were decent friends back then and his son ended up having complications and had to be air lifted to the nearest childrens hospital 1 hour a way. His son was about a month older than mine, so for all that drama, my ex and hearing a dad against I decided that circing was not okay for my kids.

Fast forward some years I was recently divorced, I started dating a jewish man and for whatever reason circing got brought up, we were discussing ear piercing, I said it was wrong to pierce a babies ears, and he was upset as his dd had ears pierced from birth. I think I mentioned that altering a baby in any way for unnecessary reasons was wrong and i brought up circusmision and he got extremely upset and threw my not vaccination stance in my face saying of course i wouldn't circ, since i didn't vax! etc. neeless to say that realtionship ended fast as my obvious semi crunchy ways were not cool with him. But it scared me to death to tell anyone else my thoughts about vaccinations and circing. I did tell dh about my thoughts on vaccinations well before we moved in together and we was supportive. I have not discuseed the circumcision issue because thus far it was irrelevant to our relationship. 

I am needing a calm, soft approach on the subject. I have a tendency to become defensive when I am talking about something I am afraid the other person may not agree with out of fear. Any suggestions? I do not plan to discuss this for at least another 3 weeks and after we find out if the baby is a boy.

Thanks


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Have you ever watched the video "The Elephant in the Hospital" by Dr Ryan McAllister? It is accessible either at www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org or on Youtube. I would suggest that you watch it when DH is out and see if you think it is worth sharing. It is extremely well done and the logic is inescapable. Then watch it together and ask him what he thought - that may give you a good idea of where his opinion lies and what aspects, if any, you need to work on with him. Unfortunately circumcision is one of those highly emotionally charged subjects and often men's ego completely over rides logic.


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## PitBullMom (Sep 22, 2014)

I provided my husband _factual_ information about circumcision, avoiding all of the propaganda and emotional sites. Pure facts and statistics, and let him educate himself about the real basis for the procedure and what the risks and benefits are. Men are generally less emotional than women, and if you start with the "in your face" emotional sites you'll likely quickly turn him off to your side of the discussion. If he is cut and has no problems physically, he's likely to be in the "my penis is fine, my son's penis will be fine too" camp. However, the simple fact is, he has no idea what "could have been" so that argument has no logical basis.

Most men have no idea of the actual facts behind the procedure, that it's 100% unnecessary except in the tiniest minority of cases.

It is factual that HIV rates are lower in circumcised men, however, they are also lower in men who practice safe sex so that's really a non-issue in my mind. You have to do a specific activity to get HIV, it's not like you catch it walking through the mall.

After I gave him all the reference material, and time to read and process, I asked him what he thought. He was still on the fence. That is when we started talking more about it, including my feelings about body integrity, as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse being in control of my own body is VERY important to me and I extend that to my child. Eventually, he changed his mind and is now very much anti-circ.

I also brought up the side of the discussion relating to girls. Removal of the foreskin is the basic equivalent of removal of all of the labial folds and/or hood of the clitoris. All of the exact same "pro-circ" arguments apply - easier to keep clean, lower rate of infections, lower rate of certain STDs. However, most people find the idea of cutting baby girls abhorrent... it's time we protect our boys the same way.


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## kindofcrunchy82 (Jan 11, 2012)

Thanks for the suggetions everyone. I will keep you all posted how things go after we find out the gender.


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## Emily Thompson (Apr 9, 2016)

It must be tough to come to a mutual decision, especially if religion and other values need to be considered. Any news regarding you and your husband's decision?


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Be aware some men can be very irrational about this subject and will refuse to look at research since their reaction has nothing to do with facts but comes from emotion connected to their own circumcision. While you can try to show a man research and evidence and hope they listen you need to be prepared that he might not. Often they have to hold the child for reality to hit. At the end of the day you may need to protect your child by signing no. I do hope he comes around and is reasonable, but you can never tell before hand just how a circumcised man will react.

For you alone to read 'The Vulnerability of men" http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Thank goodness we took the Bradley childbirth classes. Once my hubby heard from "the expert" that it was un-needed, he was all in. I was so proud of him because he had to face down his Jewish parents on this one. Our son is 20 and intact.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

I had an argument for all my DH's reasons, and I pointed out that circ'ing shortens, the penis, and who wants less penis? I sent him links to videos, and the sites from outside the US that were more unbiased but still medical. I rarely argue with him about things like this, so it was easy for him to see that I meant it.


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## Steinn (Aug 4, 2012)

PitBullMom said:


> ... It is factual that HIV rates are lower in circumcised men, ...


Actually, that's not correct. You're probably referring to some papers from Africa that showed a "60 % lowered risk" of getting HIV when genitally mutilated (aka circumcised). The "60 %" was a relative number that's misused, the factual difference in those papers was just 1,25 %. Quite a difference, uh? :wink: However, those papers are debunked long time ago as biased and methodically and statistically flawed. If they were scientifically legit they would not have ant relevance to the US anyway. Later studies shows no difference or a difference in favour of intacts. The Malawi disaster clearly shows the latter as mutilated med had a near doubled risk of getting HIV.

You had a otherwise great post though. :smile:


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## kindofcrunchy82 (Jan 11, 2012)

So, blood testing shows baby is a girl, wont need to have the talk just yet. This may be our last as,well. 

Thanks for the info though!


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Congratulations.


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## buttercupmama (Nov 29, 2008)

I talked to my DH about it despite our first being a girl. (I was pregnant with her at the time and he used that as an excuse not to talk about it.) I told him that we couldn't really say what the future would hold for us. Maybe one day we would have a son, and if that was to happen, I'd want him to remain just the way he was created.

It's up to you whether or not to bring it up and when. I just needed the peace of mind of knowing any possible future son(s) of ours would be protected by both of us, not just me. (I don't trust hospital staff.)

We ended up having a son and now another is on the way. Both will remain intact and DH was on board years before our first son was conceived. In fact, when I was pregnant with him, he was busy educating his male friends about it.  I was so proud.


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## PitBullMom (Sep 22, 2014)

buttercupmama said:


> It's up to you whether or not to bring it up and when. I just needed the peace of mind of knowing any possible future son(s) of ours would be protected by both of us, not just me. (I don't trust hospital staff.)


We were in the hospital for five days, and our son never left our sight. Not for one single second, and when we were asleep he was on my chest (want to piss off a nurse really fast? let her "catch" you doing that!) We had heard far too many stories about babies who were circumcised when they weren't supposed to be, and obviously there's no fixing that error. On the other hand, we would be very very wealthy people now... lol


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

That must be so very stressful, being in hospital and being worried that someone might just take and circumcise your baby. I can't imagine. It's so different here no one even mentions it, it's assumed you are taking your whole baby home, just the same as if he was a girl. I had no qualms about them taking my son for a while to the nursery and being fussed over. After I had my cesarean I was in a lot of pain due to having a greatly reduced amount of morphine than normal since I react to it. It sent me on a trip after I had my daughter and I did not want that again so they used the lowest amount possible. Once that first day had passed recovery went so much more quickly that I tried to get them to let me out at the end of the second day, not that they would allow it, had to wait a third. Then we ended up back in due to jaundice and feeding problems. At no time did I have to worry about him being mistakenly circumcised or retracted. It's a terrible thing to have that hanging over you in the US.


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## buttercupmama (Nov 29, 2008)

PitBullMom said:


> We were in the hospital for five days, and our son never left our sight. Not for one single second, and when we were asleep he was on my chest (want to piss off a nurse really fast? let her "catch" you doing that!) We had heard far too many stories about babies who were circumcised when they weren't supposed to be, and obviously there's no fixing that error. On the other hand, we would be very very wealthy people now... lol


Lol, I got a scolding for the same thing.

joandsarah77, it is very stressful. I hadn't really planned on having another child. Sadly, the most stressful part of it for me is dealing with the medical establishment. With my first boy, I almost lost it when the pediatrician attempted to retract him. Luckily, she didn't, but I had to put my hand on hers and threaten to call Doctors Opposing Circumcision and a lawyer if she persisted.

It's sad when you have to threaten a doctor to protect your child. The worst part of it was how confused she seemed, and she followed up in her defense by saying she had other "uncircumcised" patients. That haunted me. I didn't need to know she was doing that to other baby boys. I never took him back to her.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

buttercupmama, for Doctors like that I would go over to Saving Son's and send them a 'Don't retract pack' and hope they read it and get educated because I would be worried for other intact boys she sees.


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## foreskin_is_normal (Jul 30, 2016)

If dh has foreskin envy then he'll support the mutilation of his son. Foreskin envy is extremely common in people who are missing such an emotionally vital part of their body.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

foreskin_is_normal said:


> If dh has foreskin envy then he'll support the mutilation of his son. Foreskin envy is extremely common in people who are missing such an emotionally vital part of their body.


Not sure about this, as men with foreskin envy have enough common sense and consciousness about circumcision to realize that amputating a boys foreskin is a bad idea and, by extension, less likely to subject their sons to it. It always seemed to me that those most likely to circumcise are those deep in denial, who refuse to acknowledge that any harm was done to them. Like you, I'm disappointed, angry, any negative emotion you like about being circumcised, and I do envy those men who are whole, but I've been participating on these boards for decades in an effort to educate and inform prospective parents that it is far better to leave their precious sons as nature made them.


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## foreskin_is_normal (Jul 30, 2016)

hakunangovi said:


> Not sure about this, as men with foreskin envy have enough common sense and consciousness about circumcision to realize that amputating a boys foreskin is a bad idea and, by extension, less likely to subject their sons to it. It always seemed to me that those most likely to circumcise are those deep in denial, who refuse to acknowledge that any harm was done to them. Like you, I'm disappointed, angry, any negative emotion you like about being circumcised, and I do envy those men who are whole, but I've been participating on these boards for decades in an effort to educate and inform prospective parents that it is far better to leave their precious sons as nature made them.


Ok, maybe it's a bad term but I don't what else to call it. "I don't have a foreskin so I don't want anyone else to have a foreskin."


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

foreskin_is_normal said:


> Ok, maybe it's a bad term but I don't what else to call it. "I don't have a foreskin so I don't want anyone else to have a foreskin."


Yes, it's a difficult mindset to describe. When my wife was pregnant, the first thing I said to the doctor was "If this is a boy, there is no way that he's going to be circumcised". Then there are the men who you are talking about who say "I want him to look like me", which is about as asinine a statement as one could conceive - what does he plan - that they'll sit on the couch together watching the game with their penises hanging out?

I never understood the desire those parents have to disadvantage their son.


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## foreskin_is_normal (Jul 30, 2016)

hakunangovi said:


> Yes, it's a difficult mindset to describe. When my wife was pregnant, the first thing I said to the doctor was "If this is a boy, there is no way that he's going to be circumcised". Then there are the men who you are talking about who say "I want him to look like me", which is about as asinine a statement as one could conceive - what does he plan - that they'll sit on the couch together watching the game with their penises hanging out?
> 
> I never understood the desire those parents have to disadvantage their son.


I can never forgive my father for this. Years ago he said a foreskin was something I didn't need! WTF? Yes, I do need it to feel like a normal man! I guess I don't need to feel normal, I don't need to feel whole, and I don't need to enjoy life, either. I cannot enjoy a normal relationship with a woman even though that's really all I want in life. I guess I don't need relationships with women. I mean I don't really need anything right? Why did he have to do that to me?


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

foreskin_is_normal said:


> I can never forgive my father for this. Years ago he said a foreskin was something I didn't need! WTF? Yes, I do need it to feel like a normal man! I guess I don't need to feel normal, I don't need to feel whole, and I don't need to enjoy life, either. I cannot enjoy a normal relationship with a woman even though that's really all I want in life. I guess I don't need relationships with women. I mean I don't really need anything right? Why did he have to do that to me?


Many men who were circumcised go on to circumcise their own sons because violence is a self perpetuating thing until someone breaks the cycle. This is why you see abused children go on and abuse their own children. So my guess is, that he himself is circumscribed and it was from his own emotional wounding that his current mentality comes from. It's well known that from a mental standpoint it's safest for a man to think that what was done to him is normal, healthy, better and preferred by woman and to put down being intact as worse, unhealthy, dirty and useless, why? because it allows him not to feel as you now feel. A circumcised man strengthens his own denial when he circumsises his own son. For a man to say what you are saying takes more strength because you have faced the issue and are breaking the cycle. I hope you try and restore and find some peace since anger at others really only hurts ourselves.


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## foreskin_is_normal (Jul 30, 2016)

joandsarah77 said:


> Many men who were circumcised go on to circumcise their own sons because violence is a self perpetuating thing until someone breaks the cycle. This is why you see abused children go on and abuse their own children. So my guess is, that he himself is circumscribed and it was from his own emotional wounding that his current mentality comes from. It's well known that from a mental standpoint it's safest for a man to think that what was done to him is normal, healthy, better and preferred by woman and to put down being intact as worse, unhealthy, dirty and useless, why? because it allows him not to feel as you now feel. A circumcised man strengthens his own denial when he circumsises his own son. For a man to say what you are saying takes more strength because you have faced the issue and are breaking the cycle. I hope you try and restore and find some peace since anger at others really only hurts ourselves.


I'm still too afraid to talk to him about this. I've always been very scared of him, like he did something horrible to me. It's like I have some repressed memory of him standing there and watching me being tortured. From what I've read about this something like that probably happened. And it's actually a permanent form of torture. If they just chopped skin off my hand it would probably hurt a lot during the torture but afterwards I would be able to heal and still feel somewhat normal. I knew something was very wrong with my body long before I ever heard about circumcision. I have some kind of instinct where I just know something else is supposed to be there but it's not. They didn't chop off part of my hand, they chopped off the most sensitive part of my body and made it impossible for me to fully understand what it means to be human. I'll never be able to know for real so all I can do is philosophize about what I think it means. I want to be able to emotionally connect with a woman I love. I think foreskin amputation is more than just sexual suppression. It must also be emotional suppression. Emotions are also part of what make people human. Emotions are nothing to be ashamed about. There is no reason why men should have to suppress their emotions to be real men. Why would men be born with the capacity for emotions just to have to suppress their emotions? That makes as much sense as saying men are born with foreskins just so they can be chopped off.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

foreskin_is_normal said:


> I can never forgive my father for this. Years ago he said a foreskin was something I didn't need! WTF? Yes, I do need it to feel like a normal man! I guess I don't need to feel normal, I don't need to feel whole, and I don't need to enjoy life, either. I cannot enjoy a normal relationship with a woman even though that's really all I want in life. I guess I don't need relationships with women. I mean I don't really need anything right? Why did he have to do that to me?


I feel your hurt. I don't know how old you are, but parents who had their children before the internet came along were at a significant disadvantage compared to those today, who have instant access to any information they desire.

My parents were in the former group. They did not even have access to a library , not that it would have had any information about genital integrity, so all they had was whatever BS doctors and family fed them. Of course, I do wish that they had exercised a little more common sense and realized that nature does not make mistakes.

Today's parents have no such excuse.


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## foreskin_is_normal (Jul 30, 2016)

PitBullMom said:


> It is factual that HIV rates are lower in circumcised men, however, they are also lower in men who practice safe sex so that's really a non-issue in my mind. You have to do a specific activity to get HIV, it's not like you catch it walking through the mall.


Babies aren't having sex. So why mutilate babies to "prevent STDs"? Let them decide when they're old enough to have sex. (Almost none of them would actually choose to get mutilated like this.)


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

My husbands family is from Germany where they do not cut, but unfortunately were over here while our country still practiced infant circumcision, so he is cut. His parents did not even give consent and due to it being the 1960's (my husband is 50 and I am 49 and have been on these types of boards many years) he was probably cut without pain relief. My husband is also scared of his father and never makes any more than small talk to him. I fully believe unmediated circumcision causes PTSD.


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## Saladd (Apr 9, 2016)

DH is pretty laid back about most of this stuff. He doesn't have really STRONG feelings about anything. So when it came to deciding about cutting, I already knew what I wanted to do, but i wanted to make sure he also felt the same and not feel like he's being steamrolled. 

All I had to do was have him watch a video on YouTube of the procedure being done and he made his mind up. He only watched a few mins of the video and had to turn it off. 

When our midwife asked us what we wanted to do I was so happy that both of replied at the same time "no cutting". 

I have a strong feeling this baby is a boy so I'm a little worried at how I'm going to go about helping him understand why his dad's penis looks different. But, it can't be much harder than explaining why mom had a vagina so I think it will be ok.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Saladd said:


> I have a strong feeling this baby is a boy so I'm a little worried at how I'm going to go about helping him understand why his dad's penis looks different. But, it can't be much harder than explaining why mom had a vagina so I think it will be ok.


You have about a 98% chance of him not even noticing. Children do not normally notice the presence or absence of a foreskin. Ask your dh what his own fathers penis is like, is he cut? Most men will give you a look like are you crazy, why would I know that! They don't know and don't want to know what their own fathers penis is like. The whole conversation on what will I do when they notice and feel different is a myth, a straw man put up by pro circ's. My son never noticed a thing and that's common. I explained it when he was about 10 and he was shocked to say the least. The normal response is one of horror and sadness for the cut father not one of feeling different.


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## Xerxella (Feb 6, 2008)

I agree with what @joandsarah77 said. My DH and eldest son (9) are circumcised and the youngest (1) is not. My eldest hasn't noticed anything. Men don't sit around looking at their relatives penises anymore than female relatives sit around comparing vaginas. (Personally, I had no idea vulvas came in different colors until I saw porn films.) Like, the above poster said, this is a stupid straw man used by the pro circ group.


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## Saladd (Apr 9, 2016)

Good to know.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Saladd said:


> I have a strong feeling this baby is a boy so I'm a little worried at how I'm going to go about helping him understand why his dad's penis looks different. But, it can't be much harder than explaining why mom had a vagina so I think it will be ok.


I have never heard of this being a problem. Most people simply explain that when Dad was a baby the doctors thought it was a good idea to cut off his foreskin, but now we know better and did not do it to you. Invariably, they feel very sorry for Dad and are extremely relieved that it was not done to them.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

hakunangovi said:


> I have never heard of this being a problem. Most people simply explain that when Dad was a baby the doctors thought it was a good idea to cut off his foreskin, but now we know better and did not do it to you. Invariably, they feel very sorry for Dad and are extremely relieved that it was not done to them.


Yep, that is all I did, no issue at all. Both my sons are intact, I was circumcised. they saw me many times. No issue at all.

Further, I can say that my brothers are intact, even though I was circumcised. And my best friend was intact. No issue at all, ever. Questions, sure, but no issue in terms of feeling bad, teasing or anything else. I think only fear mongerers say it is an issue, to influence people to circumcise infants. Just like saying it is better to do it as an infant or they will get UTIs.

Regards


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