# I was just interviewed for an article about Circ!



## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

The local newspaper just called and interviewed me about the choice of circumcision!









It was great! He didn't tell me how he felt either way, but I sense that he was on our side. I didn't come right out and ask him, though.

He asked me why I chose not to circ. He asked about hygiene issues. He then broached the subject of the HIV studies!

They are sending a photographer out tomorrow to take pics of us all! Whatever shall I wear!









Yippee!


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Wow! That's kinda neat!


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Congrats!

What'd you say about the HIV thing? Did you tell that a group of South African scientists debunked the hype?


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
Congrats!

What'd you say about the HIV thing? Did you tell that a group of South African scientists debunked the hype?

I kept it really lay-person. I said that I distrusted any study that wasn't published in a large peer-reviewed journal and that if circ was the cure-all for AIDS why was there such a large number of people in the US afflicted? Also, I mentioned that surgical removal of the breasts would help breast cancer, yet no one advocates mastectomy for all adolescent girls.

He was really very interested in how this has been perpetuated. He mentioned two or three times, "If there's not a medical reason, then WHY??" I just said, "I can't answer that, really. Tradition and culture are powerful forces."

I'll link the article here when it comes out!


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## bluetoes (May 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 

They are sending a photographer out tomorrow to take pics of us all! Whatever shall I wear!









Yippee!

Kick me off the Island for saying this, but might I suggest making sure you look nice and mainstream. Why you ask? Because I am tired of people assuming that being anti-circ is a stinky crunchy granola hippie cause! Now I think all those things are quite wonderful and am shocked at how crunchy having a kid has turned me. But I get so annoyed when people associate kids that aren't circ'ed with all things they consider to be gross. Like 'icky - mom's that don't circ have hairy pits' sort of comments.

OK kick me off the Island now!!







: Let us know when the inteview comes out, hopefully it's a positive one for the cause!


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## drnmd1216 (Jan 9, 2004)

That is awesome!!! I LOVE to hear how much more coverage "the other side" is starting to get. Definately link us to the article as soon as it comes out...and good luck with the photo shoot tomorrow!


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## titania8 (Feb 15, 2007)

i am so excited for you! that is great news! thanks for doing the interview. can't wait to read it!


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## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

How did the story idea get set up? Did you approach them, or did they find you somehow? I'd love to see newspapers carrying more of these stories all over the country.

Gillian


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Ooooh, great job! If they're doing photography, definitely try to look your best and that includes makeup, because the camera really washes you out. Define your eyes, wear lipstick, a little color on your cheeks if you can. There's a reason all those celebrities wear makeup to have their pictures taken!









How did you get tapped to be interviewed? Maybe the rest of us should start harassing our local papers to run articles on circ.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

It's funny. A friend has a friend, blah blah blah, who needed a person against circumcision and who didn't choose it for their son. She sent out an email about it, and I emailed this reporter, who called me. He giggled at the word "intact" and asked why I used it instead of "uncircumcised." I told him that "uncircumcised" implies that it is unfinished or something. I said it would never be done--my son is whole and perfect and intact.

He'd already talked to a rabbi, and when I mentioned that Muslim people often circumcise, he had no idea. Crazy.

I hope, hope, hope it goes well.

Damn, I need to run out and buy some lipstick I guess!









Wish me photogenic luck tomorrow!


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 
No, I totally agree with you!

I was thinking perhaps a black top with khakis? It's pretty much my uniform anyway. I'll make sure my armpits don't show!









I don't think I'm too granola looking anyway. Pretty normal. I don't usually wear makeup, but my sister said definitely lipstick and mascara. I think a friend has told me that before too. Thoughts?

I was just about to suggest the same very thing--no hippy-like looking







. It just drives me nuts when people think that 'normal' women don't breastfeed after 1 year and definitely circ







: . Try to look as 'normal' (in mainstream kind of way







) as you can...
yulia.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Okay, so no nursing both my 20 month old and my 3.5 year old. Check. No hairy armpits, check. Keep quiet about mama cloth, check. Antiperspirant is my friend, check. I won't even wear my birks!

Think I should go totally incognito and give the kids some lunchables?
















I'm actually quite normal looking. I think.

I won't leave that link up long though, so look and advise as quick as you can!


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 









Okay, so no nursing both my 20 month old and my 3.5 year old. Check. No hairy armpits, check. Keep quiet about mama cloth, check. Antiperspirant is my friend, check. I won't even wear my birks!









I just can imagine this picture with both of your kids nursing







. just a very mainstream tandem-nursing, not a big deal







.

You look better than just notmal! you are very pretty! your dh is cute too. you guys look like a great couple!


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Pretty in a mainstream way, right?









Thanks! I hope things go okay tomorrow!


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

You could also mention that MEN have cancer at a higher rate than penile cancer.

I don't like the women/masectomy answer, because breasts are actually functional for women.... while for men they don't have a real purpose, except for sexual, I suppose... so it is a closer analogy.

Good luck and keep us posted!!!

Jessica


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 
Think I should go totally incognito and give the kids some lunchables?









OMG, this made me totally lol









Good luck tomorrow, you rock!!!

Jen


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## SammyJr (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 
They are sending a photographer out tomorrow to take pics of us all! Whatever shall I wear!









I second the recommendations for "normal". Intact shouldn't be a crunchy, hippy or "wierd" choice. It should be normal, so dress the part!


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SammyJr* 
I second the recommendations for "normal". Intact shouldn't be a crunchy, hippy or "wierd" choice. It should be normal, so dress the part!

third! I was second







...


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## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

Don't forget to post a link to the artcile when it comes out! Good luck!


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Well, the photographer just left. They also interviewed me on camera! I guess they really want to put it on the web too.

The photographer thinks it will come out on Sunday.

The boys cooperated, thankfully, and the pics were cute. FTR, I wore a blue long sleeve shirt and white capris.


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## titania8 (Feb 15, 2007)

wonderful!!







can't wait to see it!


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

Hey, I am in FL...for what newspaper is this coming out?


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Good luck "only boys". Based on your good sense of humor, your quick and intelligent comments & your thoughtful way of preparing....

YOU'LL DO GREAT!

Maybe you will even pursuade _him_ that male genitals are just as worthy of respect as female genitals are. That's a big leap for most people to make in their mind.


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## Ivan's Mom (Jul 10, 2006)

So proud to have you speaking up for us and the sweet children of the world






























on the Lunchables!


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phatchristy* 
Hey, I am in FL...for what newspaper is this coming out?

The Lakeland Ledger.


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## tuansprincess (Oct 25, 2005)

: @ lunchables! I have done so much research for a friend preggers with a boy, but I still don't feel like I could give a thoughtful interview. Thanks for doing this!


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

It's coming out tomorrow morning!

I'll post the link as soon as I have it!


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 
It's coming out tomorrow morning!

I'll post the link as soon as I have it!










GREAT! LOOKING FORWARD!


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## Christi (Nov 21, 2001)

:


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Congrats!

ETA: Link to the article if you can so we can see it!

EATA: Good call on the "mainstream" look. You are serving as a role model, and people want someone they can easily relate to. WTG!


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## AmyC (Jul 3, 2005)

I haven't even finished reading it yet but THIS MADE ME SO HAPPY!

Quote:

Health experts say immigration from Latin American and Asian countries, where circumcision is not a cultural custom, has contributed to the decline. But the statistics suggest a rise in the number of white, native-born parents, like Mann and her husband, Curtis Romey, who have decided to go against the norm.
(I went to the paper's homepage, btw, and didn't see a link but clicked on the "more health stories" link and scrolled down.)

The title of the article is "More Parents Loathe Circumcision."









I'm sorry to jump in before onlyboys updated but had to cheer as I was reading. I'll let you post the direct link, Amanda. I can't wait to get back and finish my read!! So far, this is everything the other articles covering the circ rate's drop have not been. Congratulations! And thanks for being in the right place at the right time, as well as being willing and articulate! Woo-hoo!


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Link! Link! Link!

http://www.theledger.com/article/200...NEWS/707080331










By the way, no armpits showing, right?


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Great job onlyboys! You were very articulate in the video!

I wish the writer was a llllllittle bit more on our side but he did a good job for the most part of getting both sides.

That dumb lady Tabitha Richardson pissed me off though. How on earth is a bleeding, open wound easier to clean than an intact penis? What a warped mind.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

What a cute picture!

Everyone should email the writer and thank him for the story, and gently give him feedback.

Onlyboys, did the reporter get this correct about you?

"Both said they respect the decisions of any parents who consider the matter carefully."

Meaning you are ok with it if a parent chooses circ?


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Good job Onlyboys! You look great!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
I wish the writer was a llllllittle bit more on our side but he did a good job for the most part of getting both sides.

That dumb lady Tabitha Richardson pissed me off though. How on earth is a bleeding, open wound easier to clean than an intact penis? What a warped mind.









:


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

I grew up in Polk - jr. high and high school in Bartow. Nice interview!


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## titania8 (Feb 15, 2007)

great job! i wish though that people would simply stop quoting that idiotic crap about easier to clean and "infections". if people see those words in print it reinforces the idea, however false it may be (or rather IS).

thanks for doing this!


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## OnTheBrink (Jan 24, 2004)

Amanda - I just LOVE that picture of you and the boys. But John looked through the entire paper to see if he could find Zain. He needs a Zain-fix!

You can request a professional printing of that picture, btw. I have one of Emma and I from a Ledger article when she was about 2 or so.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

The picture is adorable.









Note: I could only see it when I chose the 'printer friendly' version.

Also, how do I view the video others mentioned?

Jen


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Thanks everyone!









I'm feeling a bit exposed right now, really out there! But I'm happy that it's here and it's positive. I was having nightmares about it being about how stupid and uneducated it was of me, which isn't at all true. I'm pleased overall, I think.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Onlyboys, did the reporter get this correct about you?

"Both said they respect the decisions of any parents who consider the matter carefully."

Meaning you are ok with it if a parent chooses circ?









Actually, I am. It's not popular here, and I suspected I would get questioned about it. But, truthfully, I do think that parents should get to choose on lots of things: abortion, birth control, cesarean birth, circumcision, ear piercing, nose jobs, orthodontia, human growth hormones, etc. I realize that it removes the choice from the person who SHOULD make it--the precious boy child.

Obviously, I think that people who are informed about most of things listed above will make the choice that is safest and most logical and kind. Some people don't, though. It's sad, but outlawing something that is integral to some major religions isn't something I am comfortable with.

Also, I do not believe that ostracizing a mother for bad choices helps anyone, and that EDUCATION is the key. Which is why it's an important and thorough discussion I have with my CBE students.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 
But, truthfully, I do think that parents should get to choose on lots of things: abortion, birth control, cesarean birth, circumcision, ear piercing, nose jobs, orthodontia, human growth hormones, etc. I realize that it removes the choice from the person who SHOULD make it--the precious boy child.

-abortion=directly affects the pregnant woman's body
-birth control=affects the person's body who's taking/using it
-cesarean birth=affects the woman's body
-nose jobs=only affect the person undergoing the surgery; not typically done to newborns, certainly not unless there was a birth injury or birth defect to be corrected
-orthodontia/human growth hormones=may be medically indicated and can include the involvement of the child
-earpiercing=cosmetic, unnecessary trauma -but- unlike circumcision doesn't effect sensory function and holes *may* heal closed or at least be minimally noticable if the child decides not to wear earings as an adult (still not something I agree with or support being a parental choice, however)
-circumcision=elective, medically unnecessary cosmetic surgery on a healthy, normal child; in the case of circumcision it results in the permanent loss of sexual tissue. Have you seen this study yet?
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...X.2006.06685.x

I really don't mean to criticize you and I'm very very very proud of you for being willing to be interviewed and photographed, for sharing your story, for reaching out to parents and encouraging leaving baby boys intact. You did a great job and a wonderful thing. I do understand where you're coming from but I hope you consider the ethical implications of respecting the genital mutilation of a baby boy as a parental choice, especially if you (presumably) support the laws against female genital cutting/mutilation of little girls.

Genital integrity is a genderless birthright. Boys too. None of the other parenting decisions you mention come close to circumcision with regard to body autonomy and permanent, life-long, guarenteed damage.

Jen


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Jen, I see your passion, I really do. I respect it fully. I'm glad you are speaking out unilaterally against circumcision. For me, it crosses boundaries religiously that I am not comfortable crossing. Maybe I'll be there eventually, but for now, I'm not comfortable taking circumcision away from Jewish parents. I'm against circumcision, and I know that for some here I'm not intactivist enough. That's okay with me. I'm comfortable where I am.


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## jesrox (Apr 5, 2007)

Great interview!! Hopefully some expectant parents will read that and reconsider circ!!!


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 
Thanks everyone!









Obviously, I think that people who are informed about most of things listed above will make the choice that is safest and most logical and kind.

Also, I do not believe that ostracizing a mother for bad choices helps anyone, and that EDUCATION is the key.

I can't find the Yeah That smilie, but YEAH THAT.









I need to go read the article, but I'm already so impressed with what you've done / are doing!









ETA: OK, read the article, it's *brilliant*!!! I love that you were given so much more "time" and focus of the story than the other views. I think you come across as a wonderful, positive, pro-intact role model for other parents!

I think the reporter did an overall bang up job. Now, how can we get the AP to syndicate the story?









P.S. You look great!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture* 
I really don't mean to criticize you and I'm very very very proud of you for being willing to be interviewed and photographed, for sharing your story, for reaching out to parents and encouraging leaving baby boys intact. You did a great job and a wonderful thing. I do understand where you're coming from but I hope you consider the ethical implications of respecting the genital mutilation of a baby boy as a parental choice, especially if you (presumably) support the laws against female genital cutting/mutilation of little girls.

Genital integrity is a genderless birthright. Boys too. None of the other parenting decisions you mention come close to circumcision with regard to body autonomy and permanent, life-long, guarenteed damage.

Jen


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 
Maybe I'll be there eventually, but for now, I'm not comfortable...
...I'm comfortable where I am.










You know, I do appreciate as well you speaking out about the education factor, and I think sharing what happened with your first son and how you went on to keep your other sons whole in itself is a very powerful message.

It sounds like there is a part of you that does agree that every human being has a right to an intact body....regardless of what their parents think. Is it that you are concerned that you man offend some clients, so you don't speak as outwardly as you truly feel? I don't know how things have changed at LOL (I've had three kiddos there) but they were always outspokenly against circ, BOTH Charlynn's daughters spoke out against it. As did all the birth assistants I worked with. Even sharing personal experience and asking that I take out the book "say NO to circumcision" that was in their lending library.

I honestly do think that it is still possible to express your feelings as well from a human rights standpoint without offending/ostracizing others. You can express it as your opinion and beliefs.

I don't know how they asked you the question, but if you believe that every human being has a right to an intact body I think it could have been said without offending anyone. If someone had said that to me even before I knew anything about circ at all, I would have agreed...probably thought to myself, isn't that obvious? Because, hey, I wouldn't have wanted anyone to cut off parts of me when I was a child and couldn't speak out and be heard!

Anyhow, just some thoughts, I'm just trying to understand your standpoint more clearly. It sounds like you are very adamantly opposed to circumcision...but maybe are feeling uncomfortable with saying anything that isn't PC...but you don't think that this (keeping a child whole) is the best choice ONLY for your sons, right?


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture* 
-abortion=directly affects the pregnant woman's body......
.................None of the other parenting decisions you mention come close to circumcision with regard to body autonomy and permanent, life-long, guarenteed damage.

Jen

I'm stating the obvious, but not everyone views abortion in the context you've described, Jen. Some people believe it is permanent, life-ending damage.

That's a digression, but I think it's worth clarifying.

Back to the excellent article!!!


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 
Jen, I see your passion, I really do. I respect it fully. I'm glad you are speaking out unilaterally against circumcision. For me, it crosses boundaries religiously that I am not comfortable crossing. Maybe I'll be there eventually, but for now, I'm not comfortable taking circumcision away from Jewish parents. I'm against circumcision, and I know that for some here I'm not intactivist enough. That's okay with me. I'm comfortable where I am. And that more parents know that there might be alternatives to consider.











(Great job on the article!!)

I just wanted to echo you here and agree with you. My dh is Jewish and this is one of the issues I struggle with..

I do think circumcision is unethical, but I don't always agree in the same way to counter this when we talk about cultural verses regious circumcision. I think that a 'review' (internally/within those that practice this) of the practice is inevitable when circumcision declines/becomes illegal/goes out of favor/ becomes unethical in the eyes of the majority. And I do hope that at the very least due to the intactivism movement there will be (and is) more knowledge and education about the rituals, history, changes, and meaning so that those who are circumcising for religious reasons don't confuse cultural reasons/myths for what is actually intended/commanded.

I'd say more, and typed a bunch but I don't want to walk the line on the constraints on this board.

Jessica


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phatchristy* 
It sounds like there is a part of you that does agree that every human being has a right to an intact body....regardless of what their parents think. Is it that you are concerned that you man offend some clients, so you don't speak as outwardly as you truly feel? I don't know how things have changed at LOL (I've had three kiddos there) but they were always outspokenly against circ, BOTH Charlynn's daughters spoke out against it. As did all the birth assistants I worked with. Even sharing personal experience and asking that I take out the book "say NO to circumcision" that was in their lending library.

I don't know how they asked you the question, but if you believe that every human being has a right to an intact body I think it could have been said without offending anyone. If someone had said that to me even before I knew anything about circ at all, I would have agreed...probably thought to myself, isn't that obvious? Because, hey, I wouldn't have wanted anyone to cut off parts of me when I was a child and couldn't speak out and be heard!

Actually, the LOL I work for is very "parents choose" though both are adamantly against circumcision. I am trying my hardest to help. There is now a laminated copy ready to go to post on the bulletin board. Since I am doing the CBE classes there, I address it, and previously it wasn't addressed at all in the CBE classes. It was truly an ignored issue unless the client brought it up. If they were having a boy, then the midwife would ask, and say her opinion about it. The birth assistants are not anti-circ, unfortunately. And the way I present it is fairly one sided. I say there is no medical reason, that's it's cosmetic, etc. Standard party line stuff.

But, I've had Muslim mamas and Jewish mamas in my classes, too. Rather than totally make them feel defensive and hurt, I choose to tone some things down--for example, I show them opportunities for choice, even within these religious mandates. I have pamphlets for every conceivable religion.







(For the record, one of the Muslim families decided not to circ. I was so very happy.)

Quote:

Anyhow, just some thoughts, I'm just trying to understand your standpoint more clearly. It sounds like you are very adamantly opposed to circumcision...but maybe are feeling uncomfortable with saying anything that isn't PC...but you don't think that this (keeping a child whole) is the best choice ONLY for your sons, right?
I am very, very, very adamantly opposed to circumcision. I am very opposed not just for my children, but for everyone's children. But, I do think that Jewish and Muslim mamas who are making their choice from a different perspective than mine (and a different worldview at points) are drawing from very different places to make this choice.

I think I've regressed.







Softened, somehow, with time on this issue. After Zain was circed, I was hardcore anti-circ. Then, I listened to a tearful Jewish mother who told me how very important it was for her son to have a bris milah. Listening to her heartfelt words, hearing her utter obedience to a God's edict, watching her sacrifice her son's foreskin for her faith, it changed me somehow. This is a very important rite for Jewish mothers, and when I didn't know or care for any Jewish mothers, I much more toed the intactivist line.

Do I wish that circumcision wasn't part of Judaism? Yes, I think so. Do I think I could be obedient? No, I couldn't.

Quote:

I honestly do think that it is still possible to express your feelings as well from a human rights standpoint without offending/ostracizing others. You can express it as your opinion and beliefs.
If I say in a newspaper that I think that circumcision should be made illegal, which is what his question was, then I automatically ostracize the Muslim and Jewish mothers who choose this act as obedience. Can you tell me a kind enough way to answer that question? What I said was "No, I do not think circumcision should be illegal because that would make the procedure illegal for Jewish and Muslim mothers. I'm not at all comfortable with the US making rulings about religious rites." If that makes me not intactivist enough, then so be it.

I guess I am a contradiction. I know I'm an anomaly here at MDC, and perhaps in my own life as well. But, as WW says, "I am large, I contain multitudes."


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

I loved the article...like others, I was upset at the "harder to keep clean" BS but I thought the OPs quotes were awesome.

I didnt like the "militant "intactivists"" bit- but he didnt put that in your quotes so I assume he made that phrase up. It makes me think about how people call lactivists "breastfeeding nazis" or "militant LLL members." I think spreading myths and widening the divide between people within the inactivist movement is wrong and damages the goals of our movement. (note it was the line 'militant inactivists' that made me feel this way, and I realize it may not have been a quote from the OP but, rather, the reporter.)


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
I loved the article...like others, I was upset at the "harder to keep clean" BS but I thought the OPs quotes were awesome.

I didnt like the "militant "intactivists"" bit- but he didnt put that in your quotes so I assume he made that phrase up. It makes me think about how people call lactivists "breastfeeding nazis" or "militant LLL members." I think spreading myths and widening the divide between people within the inactivist movement is wrong and damages the goals of our movement. (note it was the line 'militant inactivists' that made me feel this way, and I realize it may not have been a quote from the OP but, rather, the reporter.)

I did not say "militant intactivists." In fact, at some point, I defined the word intactivist and called myself one. That remark irritated me as well.







: But, overall, I'm happy with the tone. I would love for him to have left out the opposition entirely, but, eh, it's a terrific start!









By the way, being a pacifist calling anything military, be it intactivist or breastfeeder pisses me off.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Yeah i dont get why he slipped that in there; I fear it might be kinda linked to the way people say stuff like "breastfeeding nazi", ya know? It's kinda just ingrained now...he seemed so anti circ in the writing (esp the title with the word "loathe") then he threw that in there...it could be that he is just ingrained, too..kinda thinking that being against the grain is ok but trying to actively DO something about a wrong is "militant."


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

I second everyone sending him an email. He was a very nice man.









[email protected]


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
Yeah i dont get why he slipped that in there; I fear it might be kinda linked to the way people say stuff like "breastfeeding nazi", ya know? It's kinda just ingrained now...he seemed so anti circ in the writing (esp the title with the word "loathe") then he threw that in there...it could be that he is just ingrained, too..kinda thinking that being against the grain is ok but trying to actively DO something about a wrong is "militant."

Do you think maybe he was trying hard to present the other side? And, perhaps trying hard to normalize what I was saying? Perhaps as painting me not as one who would outlaw such a common procedure was his way of stating that I was "normal" and not some fringe element, you know?

I think I'll ask him why he included that. Is that too critical of him?


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Hmm, I didnt think of that...even in this thread we talked about "normalizing" and looking mainstream. I guess that is like how, despite the fact that many lactivists hate the term 'breastfeeding nazi', they are still quick to point out they are not one (thereby giving the term some credit- if that makes sense)


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 
I guess I am a contradiction. I know I'm an anomaly here at MDC, and perhaps in my own life as well. But, as WW says, "I am large, I contain multitudes."









I don't think you are a contradiction... and well, I'm in the same boat, as I recently posted. In anycase, we are not allowed to cross the line here on discussing religious circumcision... and although many may not like that rule, it does set a tone here.

Jessica


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

MODS--if I've crossed that line, let me know. I'm happy to edit in order to keep this thread from the place threads go to die.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

You didn't mention in the article that you think there should be exceptions made for religious circumcisions. You basically said, "It's ok, as long as the parents have thought about it." (If the reporter quoted you correctly.) So, there will be some parents educated by this article, and other parents will say to themselves, "yeah, we've thought about it. We're going to do it. No problem."

Saying that it isn't ok for any parent to do routine infant circumcision isn't automatically the same as saying you think it should be illegal.


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 

I guess I am a contradiction. I know I'm an anomaly here at MDC, and perhaps in my own life as well. But, as WW says, "I am large, I contain multitudes."









I think being sensitive to another culture, and approaching discussion/education taking that into account is reasonable. I think, when I have spoken accross cultural barriers that is what I do. But, the education on it's own is VERY powerful. And, I don't withold information for fear that becoming educated may make someone feel bad. Information and science is just that. You present the information and facts, then logical people will draw logical conclusions from those facts.

Would you feel any different if you were dealing with a mother who was from a culture where it was very normal and even demanded of that their girl be circumcised? I once spoke to a Egyptian woman who was taken (as a child) to egypt to receive a sunna circumcision. It was such a deep part of her culture, every woman had it done, and her mother claimed fear that her family would be shunned and that she wouldn't be married off as the reason why she had it done. Do I think her mother was evil? Of course not. Uneducated, ignorant, misinformed, culturally biased...yes. It's been horrific for this woman, the feelings that the woman experienced growing up, and living here in the US what normal intact genetilia are like...well, it was so similar to the men who have come to this board. They have honestly been devistated beyond words. It is so difficult to love someone experiencing that pain (I know as my DH is circ'd and he knows so much information), and know it was completely preventable. I think about, what if his mom had gone to a different OB. What if, just one person had spoken out and told her "I have an intact penis, and it's great...why not keep his like that?" I think now too, of the women I know who have circumcised who have expressed such regret as well. Some have told me, if someone had just put themselves in an awkward position to educate, to not worry about offending someone, they likely would researched and made a different choice...know what I mean?

I do think the key IS information. Knowledge is power. These parents need to have all the information. To present factual, specific, scientific information...it's rather clear that having a natural human penis is normal and healthy. To share that multiple studies show that to circumcise is to cause permanent sexual losses...that stuff is serious, and should be shared. It can be painful...of course. It's painful to know what I know about circ even, though I am lucky to be an intact woman, I am married to a circumcised man, and my brother was circumcised without consent at the hospital after his birth. My parents, not wanting my brother to "feel bad", decided to never tell him the circumstances about his circumcision nor share the fact that our father was intact. Guess, what happened...what that silence caused...I now have two circumcised nephews. Sadly, my brother is a decade older than I am, and I didn't know what I know now about circ. I wish I could have been that person to share the information.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
You didn't mention in the article that you think there should be exceptions made for religious circumcisions. You basically said, "It's ok, as long as the parents have thought about it." (If the reporter quoted you correctly.) So, there will be some parents educated by this article, and other parents will say to themselves, "yeah, we've thought about it. We're going to do it. No problem."

Saying that it isn't ok for any parent to do routine infant circumcision isn't automatically the same as saying you think it should be illegal.

Actually, I didn't write the article.









I didn't get to include those things that *I* think are pertinent, Gary White got to pick those things. And, whatever I said to him, it won't be enough of a hardline against circ for some here. That's okay.

Parents say "I'm educated, we're doing it anyway" all the time. I'm not going to change *their* minds in my CBE classes. I'm certainly not going to change their minds in an article in Sunday's paper. I've had people sitting in my classes who literally almost threw up (or pretended to) at the thought of their son remaining intact. Some cases are just lost. And, if I feel, as I do, that the procedure shouldn't be banned, then what is my recourse?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

"Both said they respect the decisions of *any* parents who consider the matter carefully."

I asked you about this quote. You said that the reporter quoted you accurately.

I'm not talking about religious circ here. I'm talking about routine infant circumcision (RIC). You still _*respect*_ parents who "consider the matter carefully" and still choose to circ? I understand you don't want to make it illegal. But you still respect them? Why and how?







: (Again, talking about RIC.)


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, not everyone has the zero tolerance approach to intactivism. I think onlyboys has made it clear that she supports intactivism and keeping boys whole. But the fact of the matter is, not everyone is ready to go Rambo on every single person who does choose circ, even if we don't believe the parents should have that right.

The best she can do is present the information to people and if presented with that information they still choose to circ, it is out of her hands. I also see why she would say what she said in the article in the effort of not appearing unapproachable and "out there."


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phatchristy* 
I think being sensitive to another culture, and approaching discussion/education taking that into account is reasonable. I think, when I have spoken accross cultural barriers that is what I do. But, the education on it's own is VERY powerful. And, I don't withold information for fear that becoming educated may make someone feel bad. Information and science is just that. You present the information and facts, then logical people will draw logical conclusions from those facts.

Would you feel any different if you were dealing with a mother who was from a culture where it was very normal and even demanded of that their girl be circumcised? I once spoke to a Egyptian woman who was taken (as a child) to egypt to receive a sunna circumcision. It was such a deep part of her culture, every woman had it done, and her mother claimed fear that her family would be shunned and that she wouldn't be married off as the reason why she had it done. Do I think her mother was evil? Of course not. Uneducated, ignorant, misinformed, culturally biased...yes. It's been horrific for this woman, the feelings that the woman experienced growing up, and living here in the US what normal intact genetilia are like...well, it was so similar to the men who have come to this board. They have honestly been devistated beyond words. It is so difficult to love someone experiencing that pain (I know as my DH is circ'd and he knows so much information), and know it was completely preventable. I think about, what if his mom had gone to a different OB. What if, just one person had spoken out and told her "I have an intact penis, and it's great...why not keep his like that?" I think now too, of the women I know who have circumcised who have expressed such regret as well. Some have told me, if someone had just put themselves in an awkward position to educate, to not worry about offending someone, they likely would researched and made a different choice...know what I mean?

I do think the key IS information. Knowledge is power. These parents need to have all the information. To present factual, specific, scientific information...it's rather clear that having a natural human penis is normal and healthy. To share that multiple studies show that to circumcise is to cause permanent sexual losses...that stuff is serious, and should be shared. It can be painful...of course. It's painful to know what I know about circ even, though I am lucky to be an intact woman, I am married to a circumcised man, and my brother was circumcised without consent at the hospital after his birth. My parents, not wanting my brother to "feel bad", decided to never tell him the circumstances about his circumcision nor share the fact that our father was intact. Guess, what happened...what that silence caused...I now have two circumcised nephews. Sadly, my brother is a decade older than I am, and I didn't know what I know now about circ. I wish I could have been that person to share the information.









I am so sorry for your brother, nephews and your parents! And for you, the educated sister.









I honestly do not know what I would do in the case of potential female circumcision. All the introspection in the world won't confirm for me what I would do.

My class (it's the last one in the series) spends 30 minutes discussing circumcision. I describe the procedure, give them the full disclosure statement, relate studies on sensitivity and anecdotes about sensitivity, and give them websites where I tell anyone who is considering it to go to. It's been successful at least once that I definitely know of, but I'm hopeful that there are more. I am not mincing words here, or stating that it's okay if they do, just know what their son is going through. I tell them exactly like it is. In fact, I suppose that I overemphasize those aspects that are most likely to convince them. For example, if a mom is worried about breastfeeding, I am sure to enforce that it can interfere with that. I do my best to tailor the information for those who are attending my classes.

Trust me, I am anything but PC about circumcision. I was clear in my interview (and this was published) that being Christian negates the Jewish mandate of a bris milah. I feel that you think I am being two sided here--perhaps I give them the PROS of circumcision too? There are none and I state that without embarassement or reason for worry.

I think that short of showing them a video, I can't educate them more than I am. I've been thinking of doing a Saturday class (like a 2 hour block with discussion) on it exclusively. We'll see how that pans out.

Just to give you some background on me, I am a full-fledged, card carrying introvert. You know those personality tests? Yep, 100% introvert. For me to do this article, complete with photo bigger than my actual head, and taped interview, as well as let the whole world know the terrible, horrible mistake that I made was very difficult and out of character for me. I am not staying here in my safe space and letting those around me escape the truth about circumcision. I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, but rather to let it be known that I do stand up for foreskins.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
"Both said they respect the decisions of *any* parents who consider the matter carefully."

I asked you about this quote. You said that the reporter quoted you accurately.

I'm not talking about religious circ here. I'm talking about routine infant circumcision (RIC). You still _*respect*_ parents who "consider the matter carefully" and still choose to circ? I understand you don't want to make it illegal. But you still respect them? Why and how?







: (Again, talking about RIC.)

I respect that the decision is theirs to make. If I am not keen on letting the gov't make this choice for us, then what other recourse do I have? Sure, I could isolate them and make them feel horrible for their choice, or I can let them know that their next boy can be intact if they want, that my own family is a hybrid of circed/intact and tell them how this works for us.

Do I respect *them* for making this decision? Is this a test of my intactivist-ness? Their decision saddens me. It makes me worry for them. It makes me cry to think of what their son is going/went through. Does the sight of them sicken me? No. Do I wish them ill? No.

I think I could toe the party line on this one, sure. But who would I reach with THAT message? Who could I convince?

Anyway, what is YOUR point? Do you wish I had never given interview for the article? Do you want me to confess that I am truly a supporter of RIC in disguise?







I am different than you. I love foreskins too, can't we just get along?


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## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
I've said it before and I'll say it again, not everyone has the zero tolerance approach to intactivism. I think onlyboys has made it clear that she supports intactivism and keeping boys whole. But the fact of the matter is, not everyone is ready to go Rambo on every single person who does choose circ, even if we don't believe the parents should have that right.

The best she can do is present the information to people and if presented with that information they still choose to circ, it is out of her hands. I also see why she would say what she said in the article in the effort of not appearing unapproachable and "out there."









:
I think that the article was a great step.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 

Anyway, what is YOUR point? Do you wish I had never given interview for the article?

No, I just wish that you/the article could have been stronger toward anti-RIC. But, as other have said, it's a start.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
No, I just wish that you/the article could have been stronger toward anti-RIC. But, as other have said, it's a start.

Ah, thanks for clarifying.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Onlyboys! Thank you for all you have done for this interview, your teachings to others and your dialog on this thread!!!!!!!!!

TCAC forum does have a prohibition on discussion of religious circumcision. It is inevitable that it will come up in passing due to the nature of it being included in the religious practices of some religions. I think the way it has come up in this thread is fine as it's been respectful and the focus has remained on routine infant circumcision (RIC).

Again, Onlyboys, thank you so much for your willingness to do this article and to put yourself out there to speak out!


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## OnTheBrink (Jan 24, 2004)

I think the article was awesome. Great job, Amanda!

I'm the other anti-circ mom quoted there (Nancy Moses). Like Amanda, I don't feel that I was completely and correctly represented, but I think he did a good job. I wish more of my complete quotes had been included, not just pieces, but I understand that's how it works.

Anyway - I'm just so glad to have it out there as a conversation starter!


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Again, I think the article is excellent overall, and has the potential to help move people toward accepting intactness and choosing it for their families.

Could we get it pinned here? Amanda / Onlyboys, would you be OK with something like that?

This kind of article helps, it does. I wonder, if we wanted to organize, how we could help parenting and pregnancy magazines create their own articles like these. I think it may be worth asking the newspaper author (and I'm talking about the ladies who were in the story to do this, Amanda and Nancy) about re-printing or having other publications use (and credit) his work.... I'm not sure how that goes or how he or his employer gets paid for that, there must be a system. I think it would be worthwhile to encourage the writer to put it out there, or to ask his permission to do that, or ask him his advice on what would be the best way to get the story or the topic out there even more.

Even more influential than magazines, would be the parenting books.

Anyway, I'm thinking in terms of how to spread the momentum and information further, beyond Florida to a national US audience.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Amanda and Nancy,
Great job!!!!! You came off as very nice and mainstream, and you looked lovely. Thank you for being willing to go beyond the boundaries of your comfort zone in order to help end RIC. The article was good and I think it will make a lot of people think twice about this bizarre custom.


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## christifav (Nov 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyC* 























The title of the article is "More Parents Loathe Circumcision."









Did they change the title? When I clicked the link the title read, "In Last Four Decades, Circumcision Has Lost Popularity in the United States"

Was "Loathe" too strong a word???

Amanda--Great job! Thanks for doing this.


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## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

Dear Mr White:

Thanks for your article about intact boys in the Ledger. Our international
physicians' charity is engaged in encouraging our colleagues to abandon the
practice, a holdover from the Puritan 1870s. I find amusing (well tragic,
actually) the suggestion there is no downstream sexual damage. That was the entire
point in 1870.

As late as the 1970's medical books were claiming that desensitizing the boy
was good medicine as well as good morality. The idea of that, touted openly by
medical scholarship with notable pride, was carefully tucked away when the
sexual revolution permitted sexual pleasure.

We estimate the sexual sensation loss at over 75%. Indeed, a study to that
effect was published in the UK in February. I could send you a copy.

Moreover, do you really want to believe a doctor who makes a living from the
procedure and is likely himself circumcised (thus without the slightest
knowledge of what he missed?)

Thanks again, though,

John V. Geisheker, J.D., LL.M.
Executive Director,
General Counsel,
Doctors Opposing Circumcision
2132 Westlake Ave. N Suite #150
Seattle, WA 98109
tel +1. 206. 465. 6636

(posted withpermission of the author)


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

I just found this thread and looked at the article. You'll be happy to know that it was linked to, by someone OTHER than me on my due date club on a very mainstream board!


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

I love DOC but are they sure about this?

Quote:

We estimate the sexual sensation loss at over 75%.
75%? Wow, that's really, really high. I dunno....


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Wow you got the MODS here, this thread is HOT!!!

Thank you onlyboys for really putting yourself out there. That takes guts. I understand your approach on reaching people. I'm the kind of person who is more likely to go "Rambo" on the parents considering this unnecessary tragic procedure done only for shallow reasons. I'm in the process of trying to BAN RIC starting with the MGM Bill. The only reason there is a law against FGM is because our culture thinks this is barbaric. In the same way we have to condition our culture to despise RIC (MGM). Personally I think this is a very powerful way to get this bill to pass. How do we reach the "mainstream" and begin this process? We start by reaching them in the middle. Once we have them by the hand we can draw them nearer to our side. Its counterproductive if we just shout from our end. They would be pushed away farther and we would be thought of as NUTS and then no one will listen to us. I think its important to e-mail the writer, thanking him for doing the article while emphasizing the admiration of this mother's decision to keep their sons intact. This will encourage future articles on circumcision. Again, onlyboys, you did great!


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## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
Wow you got the MODS here, this thread is HOT!!!

Thank you onlyboys for really putting yourself out there. That takes guts. I understand your approach on reaching people. I'm the kind of person who is more likely to go "Rambo" on the parents considering this unnecessary tragic procedure *done only for shallow reasons*. I'm in the process of trying to BAN RIC starting with the MGM Bill. The only reason there is a law against FGM is because our culture thinks this is barbaric. In the same way we have to condition our culture to despise RIC (MGM).

Have you bothered to read this thread at all????

Personally, while I oppose circumcision, will not circ any son of mine, and try to convince my friends pregnant with boys not to circ, I would be fully and totally AGAINST any such bill, and indeed any such bill would be totally unconstitutional. (Religious freedom ring a bell?)


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
I love DOC but are they sure about this?

75%? Wow, that's really, really high. I dunno....


Once talked to a man who was circumcised as an adult, he had "no medical problems" but felt "uncomfortable" about having a foreskin and his physician was happy to lop it off. Anyhow, he said it was the worst mistake he made in his life. He said that more than half the pleasure during intercourse was gone, and that masturbation was a joke. Whole sensations just no longer existed after he was circumcised.

Twenty or so years later he discovered restoration, and was working on it for a few years. He said that he's gotten quite a bit more back, thought it's not the same it is pretty close to intact (I think he said he thinks its about 75-80% of what he used to feel with an intact penis).

And, I don't doubt it, honestly. My DH has slowly been working on restoration, and he's said several things that have coincided with this. He has whole new sensations that didn't exist before. Plus, I've noticed some changes as well.

Some people will say, circumcision decreases sensation...sure, that IS true, but it is more powerful to say even that circumcision takes away some sensations that are impossible to feel with a circumcised penis. Sad, but true







: . Most men in this country want to deny it as they are circumcised themselves.


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## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

<<(Religious freedom ring a bell?)>>

Religious freedom does not permit child abuse. There was a case of a
Native American group who practised a tradition of biting teen aged boys
on the arms. It was a part of a religious coming of age ceremony. They were reported and it went to court. They had to stop the practise.

If there was a religious group that advocated animal torture or child sacrifice, none of that would be allowed. It's estimated that 200 baby boys in the U.S. are sacrificed due to genital mutilation every year. This is why we need to end it. All the beautiful traditions of religious ceremonies which welcome new members of the tribe can be kept. Cutting kids' genitals has no place in today's society.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phatchristy* 
Once talked to a man who was circumcised as an adult, he had "no medical problems" but felt "uncomfortable" about having a foreskin and his physician was happy to lop it off. Anyhow, he said it was the worst mistake he made in his life. He said that more than half the pleasure during intercourse was gone, and that masturbation was a joke. Whole sensations just no longer existed after he was circumcised.

Twenty or so years later he discovered restoration, and was working on it for a few years. He said that he's gotten quite a bit more back, thought it's not the same it is pretty close to intact (I think he said he thinks its about 75-80% of what he used to feel with an intact penis).

And, I don't doubt it, honestly. My DH has slowly been working on restoration, and he's said several things that have coincided with this. He has whole new sensations that didn't exist before. Plus, I've noticed some changes as well.

Some people will say, circumcision decreases sensation...sure, that IS true, but it is more powerful to say even that circumcision takes away some sensations that are impossible to feel with a circumcised penis. Sad, but true







: . Most men in this country want to deny it as they are circumcised themselves.

I totally believe that they lose sensation and senstivity. But 75% would mean that their penis is only 25% away from being completely numb and non-feeling. As an intact man I can't speak on how it feels to be circ'd, but I imagine if it were that severe more people would complain and have a difficult time.


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
As an intact man I can't speak on how it feels to be circ'd, but I imagine if it were that severe more people would complain and have a difficult time.

I will add to my previous discussion that the man circ'd as an adult had also told me that the "orgasm" was pretty much the same, and it was the actual pleasure during the act that dramatically decreased. Which is why circ'd men tend to be more "goal oriented"...race for the finish. The difference in the pleasures of the actual sex act and orgasm are much greater for the circumcised man. For the intact man, the entire sexual act is so extremely pleasurable, and the orgasm is just a cumulation of all that pleasure. It's more of a relaxed dance of pleasure, and he enjoys everything the whole time. I would think that it is similar for the intact woman as well (that's my personal experience







).

Keep in mind too, that women who are circumcised (through research) still report that they are able to orgasm and enjoy sex. Some people seem to think it's some all or nothing thing. Even type II MGM (glans/foreskin amputation), these men can still orgasm and procreate....

I think the point is, does anyone have the RIGHT to decrease sexual pleasure arbitrarily on a person? Is any genital mutilation OK as long as the person can still orgasm?

I hope that further clarifies. This is what I have deduced from years of research.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phatchristy* 
I will add to my previous discussion that the man circ'd as an adult had also told me that the "orgasm" was pretty much the same, and it was the actual pleasure during the act that dramatically decreased. Which is why circ'd men tend to be more "goal oriented"...race for the finish. The difference in the pleasures of the actual sex act and orgasm are much greater for the circumcised man. For the intact man, the entire sexual act is so extremely pleasurable, and the orgasm is just a cumulation of all that pleasure. It's more of a relaxed dance of pleasure, and he enjoys everything the whole time. I would think that it is similar for the intact woman as well (that's my personal experience







).

Keep in mind too, that women who are circumcised (through research) still report that they are able to orgasm and enjoy sex. Some people seem to think it's some all or nothing thing. Even type II MGM (glans/foreskin amputation), these men can still orgasm and procreate....

I think the point is, does anyone have the RIGHT to decrease sexual pleasure arbitrarily on a person? Is any genital mutilation OK as long as the person can still orgasm?

I hope that further clarifies. This is what I have deduced from years of research.

No, no. We're totally on the same page.

But now that you said the orgasm is pretty much the same, then it makes sense. Because I was thinking that with a 75% the orgasms would be much weaker and not feel as good.

But what you said makes sense. I'm just questioning that 75% figure because it sounds so large! Just like when the HIV crap came out and they said that circ reduced the chance of HIV infection by 60%. Large percentages like that always make me raise an eyebrow.


----------



## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
No, no. We're totally on the same page.

But now that you said the orgasm is pretty much the same, then it makes sense. Because I was thinking that with a 75% the orgasms would be much weaker and not feel as good.

But what you said makes sense. I'm just questioning that 75% figure because it sounds so large! Just like when the HIV crap came out and they said that circ reduced the chance of HIV infection by 60%. Large percentages like that always make me raise an eyebrow.


Yep, the orgasm thing...that is something that I think that helps explain it more. It helps to understand that one more. Which is why the circumcised man tends to be more orgasm oriented. There's another male poster on MDS who too commented that the orgasm was pretty similar (he was circumcised as an adult) though the actual pleasure of the act was substantially decreased. Which makes sense, the orgasm originates in the brain apparently. Interesting enough, I read some research about mapping orgasms on an MRI. Women who were paralyzed from the waist down and are unable to feel sensation can still orgasm, they tested it using an MRI. The women had "thought" they were orgasming, though physicians doubted them "called it a phantom orgasm". So, they did an experiement with them using an MRI, and sure enough the same locations in the brain were lighting up just like in the non-paralyzed women.







So, the receptors are present in the brain, and if they are stimulated in the right way they will eventually fire off, evoking that biochemical then muscular response we enjoy so much. Interesting huh?


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phatchristy* 
Once talked to a man who was circumcised as an adult, he had "no medical problems" but felt "uncomfortable" about having a foreskin and his physician was happy to lop it off. Anyhow, he said it was the worst mistake he made in his life. He said that more than half the pleasure during intercourse was gone, and that masturbation was a joke. Whole sensations just no longer existed after he was circumcised.

Twenty or so years later he discovered restoration, and was working on it for a few years. He said that he's gotten quite a bit more back, thought it's not the same it is pretty close to intact (I think he said he thinks its about 75-80% of what he used to feel with an intact penis).

And, I don't doubt it, honestly. My DH has slowly been working on restoration, and he's said several things that have coincided with this. He has whole new sensations that didn't exist before. Plus, I've noticed some changes as well.

Some people will say, circumcision decreases sensation...sure, that IS true, but it is more powerful to say even that circumcision takes away some sensations that are impossible to feel with a circumcised penis. Sad, but true







: . Most men in this country want to deny it as they are circumcised themselves.

Wow! And keep in mind that his loss of sensation must be less than in men who got circ'd in infancy because they had 20+ years more of keratinization







: .
Isn't that crazy that circ'd men do it to their sons?!







:


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JustJamie* 
Have you bothered to read this thread at all????

Personally, while I oppose circumcision, will not circ any son of mine, and try to convince my friends pregnant with boys not to circ, I would be fully and totally AGAINST any such bill, and indeed any such bill would be totally unconstitutional. (Religious freedom ring a bell?)

Let me ask you this. Are you opposed to female circumcision? For the sake of religious freedom this practice would be okay to preform. So why is it against the law to preform female circumcion? And yes I've been following very closely on this thread.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Just heard that Gary's email has been flooded by people who are both in support and up in arms over the article. For some reason, it's been pushed up to the top spot on the website again.

And, on a more personal note, the young man (he is 19) who bought a car from me a couple of months ago called me today to tell me he saw the article in the paper. He just called to tell me THANK YOU! He said he's intact and appreciated hearing my story.









My mother has gotten several emails, some positive, some negative; my husband got a thumbs up at a meeting at work; my sister had phone calls from irate friends ("How dare she say I MUTILATED my son!!!"); the birth center is thrilled for the plug.









Thanks, all for the great discussions and the support. Please feel free to sticky this, or whatever to help the cause!


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheBrink* 
I think the article was awesome. Great job, Amanda!

I'm the other anti-circ mom quoted there (Nancy Moses). Like Amanda, I don't feel that I was completely and correctly represented, but I think he did a good job. I wish more of my complete quotes had been included, not just pieces, but I understand that's how it works.

Anyway - I'm just so glad to have it out there as a conversation starter!

*Nancy Moses*, you deserve some credit for this too. Thank you.









*"Nancy Moses, a friend of Mann's, arrived at the same outlook while pregnant with her first child, who turned out to be a girl. Four years later, Moses gave birth to a son, John, who is now 2 and, as Moses proudly states, not circumcised."

"I think I always knew that I found circumcision odd, creepy and cruel, even," said Moses, 31. "But it wasn't until I was pregnant that I knew how horrible it would be if someone hurt my baby. And imagine if I was the one to allow that."*


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
But now that you said the orgasm is pretty much the same, then it makes sense. Because I was thinking that with a 75% the orgasms would be much weaker and not feel as good.

I don't have any way of knowing, and my case wouldn't be a "normal" one, but I would say the my botched circ and re-circ easly cost me 85% of sensation initially and that has probably increased to 95% in the last 3-4 years. The orgasm itself, not bad. But getting there........

I appreciate the efforts of the OP and understand where she is coming from. It's a start to an issue that I, sadly, don't expect to see resolved in my lifetime.

But make no mistake about it, I want it outlawed. If a female's genitals are good enough to be protected by federal law, then so are a male's. There's no consititutional right or inherent freedom to mutilate a child's genitals. I believe in a consenting adult's right to do what they want to their genitals by their own choice, but NOBODY...not my parents, or ignorant doctors, or some religion....had any right to slice up my penis without my permission.


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## Serenagirl (Jun 8, 2007)

There was an article about FGM in our city's newspaper. I wrote a letter to the editor about my feelings on Male Circumcision. It was published and won letter of the week







. Two years later, I get a phone call from a producer making a documentary on circumcision. She wanted an interview. Keep the letters going to the editors and it will snowball from there.

_____________________________
Serena wife to Nic. mom to DS1







, DS2:







and DD







:


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## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

Cool, Serena, thanks for sharing that. You throw a small pebble out into the pond and the ripples make bigger and bigger rings. . . and, "poof" cutting has ended forever, everywhere.
We're all part of the solution.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baybee* 
<<(Religious freedom ring a bell?)>>

Religious freedom does not permit child abuse. There was a case of a
Native American group who practised a tradition of biting teen aged boys
on the arms. It was a part of a religious coming of age ceremony. They were reported and it went to court. They had to stop the practise.

If there was a religious group that advocated animal torture or child sacrifice, none of that would be allowed. It's estimated that 200 baby boys in the U.S. are sacrificed due to genital mutilation every year. This is why we need to end it. All the beautiful traditions of religious ceremonies which welcome new members of the tribe can be kept. Cutting kids' genitals has no place in today's society.

That was really well said!


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## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

Here's what Van Lewis (of the Ashley Montague Petition) wrote to the Ledger:
(he gave me permission to share it with this forum)

"I thought this article on the decreasing popularity of circumcision (among
adults; 100% of babies have always vigorously opposed it) was very
thoughtfully and competently done. I do wonder why people who want equal
genital protection of the law for all children, not just for girls, were
called "militant", though. It seems to me that supporting the constitutions
of Florida and the United States, and ALL children's moral and
constitutional rights to be protected equally from medically unnecessary
genital alteration (circumcision, cutting, mutilation, whatever you want to
call it is ok with me; there is no word bad enough for it in my book) and
from the permanent damage and further risks - including death - to which we
subject all children we circumcise, without their lawful, informed consent,
should be called "fair" or "patriotic" or "law-abiding" or "intelligent" or
"humane" or "loving" something like that. "Militant" comes from the same
root as "military". The military is society's organ of violence. Calling
intactivists "militant" accuses us violence. But it is not intactivists who
are doing the violence. We are the ones opposing violence. It is the
circumcisers who are committing the violence, sexual violence at that,
against babies, for crying out loud. Circumcision is where sex and violence
first meet, and marry. Call the mutilationists "militant", not the people
trying to stop them from committing their unnecessary and despicable
violence against babies. Pick on somebody your own size, circumcisers. Leave
babies full-sized, not circumcised. We kill some children by circumcising
them. I have a long and incomplete list of names of children and others
killed by circumcision. What are parents trying to achieve by circumcising
their children that's worth risking their children's lives for? Does anybody
know? To me it's a great mystery. Despite minor glitches like the "militant"
word choice, however, this article was by far better than most of the trash
I've read in the U.S. press on the subject over the last 40+ years. Thanks,
Mr. White."

Foreskins are for KEEPS!


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## OnTheBrink (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 
Just heard that Gary's email has been flooded by people who are both in support and up in arms over the article. For some reason, it's been pushed up to the top spot on the website again.

And, on a more personal note, the young man (he is 19) who bought a car from me a couple of months ago called me today to tell me he saw the article in the paper. He just called to tell me THANK YOU! He said he's intact and appreciated hearing my story.









My mother has gotten several emails, some positive, some negative; my husband got a thumbs up at a meeting at work; my sister had phone calls from irate friends ("How dare she say I MUTILATED my son!!!"); the birth center is thrilled for the plug.









Thanks, all for the great discussions and the support. Please feel free to sticky this, or whatever to help the cause!









Amanda - Rob reports that this was the main conversation at the church office yesterday. The old ladies are worried about Zain - saying that it wasn't fair to him to be so public about this. Rob assured them that 1) Zain is just fine and 2) You'd never agree to the article without checking with Zain first.

My "odd, creepy, and cruel" quote upset my family. I think they (mother and sister) felt personally attacked for their choices. I'm past the point of personal with them. They are both done having babies. It's such a bigger picture than that!


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Serenagirl* 
There was an article about FGM in our city's newspaper. I wrote a letter to the editor about my feelings on Male Circumcision. It was published and won letter of the week







. Two years later, I get a phone call from a producer making a documentary on circumcision. She wanted an interview. Keep the letters going to the editors and it will snowball from there.

_____________________________
Serena wife to Nic. mom to DS1







, DS2:







and DD







:

















Way to go!!!! Great job.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baybee* 
<<(Religious freedom ring a bell?)>>

It's estimated that 200 baby boys in the U.S. are sacrificed due to genital mutilation every year.

I think that's supposed to be 200,000?


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## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

Oh, I meant the number who die as a direct result of circumcision.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheBrink* 
Amanda - Rob reports that this was the main conversation at the church office yesterday. The old ladies are worried about Zain - saying that it wasn't fair to him to be so public about this. Rob assured them that 1) Zain is just fine and 2) You'd never agree to the article without checking with Zain first.

My "odd, creepy, and cruel" quote upset my family. I think they (mother and sister) felt personally attacked for their choices. I'm past the point of personal with them. They are both done having babies. It's such a bigger picture than that!

I definitely spoke to Zain. In fact, he was so wonderful about it. He said, "Well, maybe another mom will choose not to do it from this."









He also asked for no pic, and I thought that was totally reasonable!

I can see how your mom and sis would be upset. But, you're so right. This wasn't about them. At all. And, did your mom really make the choice in full awareness? My mom said that there was no mention at all to her when her boys were circed.


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## OnTheBrink (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 
I can see how your mom and sis would be upset. But, you're so right. This wasn't about them. At all. And, did your mom really make the choice in full awareness? My mom said that there was no mention at all to her when her boys were circed.

Mom says she had no idea. But, it seems like she could have. I mean, she went against the grain and figured out how to nurse preschoolers. You'd think she could have asked some questions. And my brother was the 3rd child - so she was already deep in the parenting thing at that point - LLL, etc. I don't know. Odd.


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## Dave2GA (Jul 31, 2005)

I thought Amanda was great on the video, which is very, very good for our cause. In general the article was about as good as we are going to get from the mainstream media. They have to worry about backlash, both religious and non-religious. We all need to respect each other's perspectives. Fundamental intactivism has its points, but is likely to turn off a number of parents who will then just go ahead and circ. You get more flies with honey than with vinegar. We can't save the entire world in one day. But we can chip away at the mountain one article and one person at a time. Eventually the mountain will no longer block our view. In my estimation it is particularly important to appear reasonable right now when any day we may expect one or more physician's organizations to recommend universal circ because of the AIDS studies. Our increasing emphasis on the damage caused by circ will be much to our favor. While the sexasnatureintendedit site is a bit strong, after having reviewed it in detail, I think it is correct as to the function of the foreskin and its importance to both the male and the female. This is where we need to be placing the emphasis IMO.


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## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

Dave2GA
Always appreciate your input on these forums. Thanks for all you do to
help end the suffering.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
Let me ask you this. Are you opposed to female circumcision? For the sake of religious freedom this practice would be okay to preform. So why is it against the law to preform female circumcion? And yes I've been following very closely on this thread.

I agree w/ you. There's a good number of people in countries like the U.S, Canada and other areas who would _love_ to circumcise their daughter if it weren't illegal. In fact, some try to take back to their homeland to do it. It gets media coverage every so often.

It comes down to genital integrity for BOTH. Like the BoysToo.com website says. I would support this bill in _both_ countries.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys* 
I definitely spoke to Zain. In fact, he was so wonderful about it. He said, "Well, maybe another mom will choose not to do it from this."









He also asked for no pic, and I thought that was totally reasonable!

I can see how your mom and sis would be upset. But, you're so right. This wasn't about them. At all. And, did your mom really make the choice in full awareness? My mom said that there was no mention at all to her when her boys were circed.

Oh, that's *very* reasonable. I'm proud of him, too!







: Hey, can the online version be reposted in newsgroups (Usenet)? I would NOT post it in "alt.circumcision" because of the circumfetishers over there. But I could post it in multiple ones like "soc.men" and "alt.parenting-solutions", etc. May I please? I might even post it as a singular in "alt.circumcision" in the hopes a visitor there may wade through all the expected _garbage_ posts from Jake W. and get educated.


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## gridley13 (Sep 3, 2004)

I am just catching up here and saw the interview and read the article. I just wanted to say great job and I hope your words make a difference!


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dave2GA* 
You get more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Wow that is so comforting! Your entire post is good but this is one quote is a gem.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Microsoap* 
Oh, that's *very* reasonable. I'm proud of him, too!







: Hey, can the online version be reposted in newsgroups (Usenet)? I would NOT post it in "alt.circumcision" because of the circumfetishers over there. But I could post it in multiple ones like "soc.men" and "alt.parenting-solutions", etc. May I please? I might even post it as a singular in "alt.circumcision" in the hopes a visitor there may wade through all the expected _garbage_ posts from Jake W. and get educated.

I think this would be fine. Is it just another messageboard? I confess to not being clear of most of what you said.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

I'll try to describe it as best I can. Yes, newsgroups (Usenet) is like one gigantic global message board forum. There's ones that are text-only, and some that are used for posting pictures, videos (binaries). You either format your Outlook Express, or Netscape web browser to read and post. An altenative is Google Groups, that not only lets you do that, but actually ARCHIVES *all* posts as far back as the early-'90s [the downside: you can only post to 5 newsgroups at one time, there's a cap of how many posts in a certain time period)! Posts also appear in Google searches.

---

alt.circumcision:
http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.ci.../topics?lnk=sg

misc.kids.pregnancy:
http://groups.google.ca/group/misc.k.../topics?lnk=sg

alt.parenting.solutions:
http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.pa.../topics?lnk=sg

misc.kids:
http://groups.google.ca/group/misc.kids/topics?lnk=rgh

soc.men:
http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.men/topics

---

Because of the circumfetishers in alt.circumcision, I would post your story separately, because those who respond would post the messages in the other newsgroups and quite frankly, the circumfetishes act childish and tend to distract from the main goal-- education. But I would post it separately so those who ONLY go to alt.circumcision, could still get educated, even though there will be some childish "go clean your gross disgusting foreskin" comments will be needed to be waded through.







:


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