# safety of front seat even after age 12?



## CorasMama (May 10, 2002)

So, my dd is going to turn 12 in a few months. I know the rules about keeping them in the backseat until 12, but I'm wondering if it's still safer to have her in the back seat after that. The reason I'm wondering is, our back seat is crazy-uncomfortable. Cora has myofascial pain syndrome, and some back issues, and if there's no adult passenger, she would probably be a TON more comfortable in the front.

For the record, she's 5' and 105lbs, if that makes a difference. And I'd rather she be in the back if the shoulder belt in front doesn't fit her properly. The one in back fits her pretty okay. The one in the front is adjustable height, so I think it could fit her great, I don't know. I haven't put her in the front to check, because I don't want to get her hopes up that she's going to be allowed to sit up there.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

The backseat is always safer, for everyone. It just is. The relative safety decreases somewhat with age, though. I don't have numbers -- I don't even know if they exist -- but I would guess that at her size and age, assuming the front seat belts fit her, the additional safety of the backseat may not be worth actual pain. As the parent it's your call, of course, but if I had an adult-size 12yo who was in actual pain in the backseat (not just whining about wanting to be up front), I would seriously consider letting her ride in front.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
The backseat is always safer, for everyone. It just is. The relative safety decreases somewhat with age, though. I don't have numbers -- I don't even know if they exist -- but I would guess that at her size and age, assuming the front seat belts fit her, the additional safety of the backseat may not be worth actual pain. As the parent it's your call, of course, but if I had an adult-size 12yo who was in actual pain in the backseat (not just whining about wanting to be up front), I would seriously consider letting her ride in front.

Well, that pretty much covers what I wanted to say. Except that I'd say if pain were an issue, she'd be there on her birthday. It's not that I discount the risk, which is a risk for everyone, as the PP noted. It's just that... well... pain is pain.







My mom is two inches taller and two lbs heavier and she fits up there just fine.

ETA- My grandma is actually smaller







and she prefers the front. I hope your daughter finds relief in the front seat.


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## LVale (May 4, 2004)

I think your daughter is just fine in the front seat. If it makes you feel any better I am 4'11" and 100 lbs, and I am 48 yrs. old. and I sit in the front seat. I just put my seat as far back as it can go from the air bag. I cannot sit in the back seat, due to severe motion sickness, unless it is a big SUV. We have a Mitusbshi Galant, if it makes any difference. We are going on vacation and because our really tall son is going with us and needs to be in the front seat, my hubby is renting a really nice Suv for me, yea!!!!! Oh my son is 31, and still likes to hang with his parents, can you believe it?


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

The backseat is safer for everyone, but I agree that if I had a 12 year old in actual pain, and she fit the front seat seatbelt, I'd put her up front.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

A study was done that showed that 13-14 yr olds in the front seat were injured more than 15+ yr olds in the front seat. The idea is that during puberty, their bone structure is changing so rapidly that even though they may be the same size as an adult, their bodies cannot withstand the same force from an accident. Carseat.org has on their current flyer that children should remain in the backseat until 15. My DSS 14 will be in the backseat until his 15th b-day.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

My daughter will probably be in the backseat (at least most of the time) until then also, especially because she's smallish.

All else being equal, I prefer to see 12yos in the backseat. But all else is not equal. This 12yo is in pain in the backseat. I'm pretty hardcore about child passenger safety, but sometimes life keeps us from practicing the best of best practices. Taking everything into consideration, I'm still comfortable with this child in the front seat if she fits.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

If it's bothering her to be in the back seat, I'd bring her up front. She's the same size I am, and I'm comfortable with myself being in the front seat.


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## Realcraftymama (Sep 22, 2007)

When we do go into town, we drive a pickup truck so for us the back seat is no longer an option. When they were littler we could bungee the seat down real tight and when they got to the age of sitting up we could prop the seat up against the tailgate and bungee it there...usually complaining about the weather. Now that they're older they want to ride up front with us and hang out teh window, no matter what the weather!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
If it's bothering her to be in the back seat, I'd bring her up front. She's the same size I am, and I'm comfortable with myself being in the front seat.









Not to single you out but that's the whole point. Yes she may be the same size as you but chances are that she is still growing. Growth plates don't close until the end of puberty. For most girls, that's around 18. Since her body is still changing so much, it isn't reasonable to compare her size to your size and say it's basically equal.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Realcraftymama* 
When we do go into town, we drive a pickup truck so for us the back seat is no longer an option. When they were littler we could bungee the seat down real tight and when they got to the age of sitting up we could prop the seat up against the tailgate and bungee it there...usually complaining about the weather. Now that they're older they want to ride up front with us and hang out teh window, no matter what the weather!

Bungee -- as in bungee cords? In the bed of a pickup truck? That is not likely to hold in a crash. It's not legal and not safe (and that's rather an understatement). If the options are properly restrained (seatbelt plus child restraint if appropriate) in the front seat or bungee-corded in the back of a pickup, the front seat is by far the better choice.


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## LizaBear (Feb 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Realcraftymama* 
When we do go into town, we drive a pickup truck so for us the back seat is no longer an option. When they were littler we could bungee the seat down real tight and when they got to the age of sitting up we could prop the seat up against the tailgate and bungee it there...usually complaining about the weather. Now that they're older they want to ride up front with us and hang out teh window, no matter what the weather!


I seriously hope that this is just a joke post meant to stir the pot around here.

Yes, we have some who are seriously hardcore about child passenger safety, but they are only looking out for the best interest of the child.

And being held in to the bed of a truck - by a BUNGEE cord at that - is not in the best interest of anyone, especially not the child.


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## soxthecatrules (Oct 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnnieA* 
A study was done that showed that 13-14 yr olds in the front seat were injured more than 15+ yr olds in the front seat. The idea is that during puberty, their bone structure is changing so rapidly that even though they may be the same size as an adult, their bodies cannot withstand the same force from an accident. Carseat.org has on their current flyer that children should remain in the backseat until 15. My DSS 14 will be in the backseat until his 15th b-day.

Soooo....are we going to start drivers ed in college? Around here you can get a learners permit at 14 and a restricted license at 15. And, what are we going to do on the other end of the spectrum? Make women w/osteoporosis sit in the backseat also?


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soxthecatrules* 
Soooo....are we going to start drivers ed in college? Around here you can get a learners permit at 14 and a restricted license at 15. And, what are we going to do on the other end of the spectrum? Make women w/osteoporosis sit in the backseat also?

Just because it's legal doesn't mean that it is safe. In my state, you can legally move out of a booster when you are 8 yrs old or 80 lbs. My DSS 8 is 48 lbs and 4'2". He isn't getting out of a booster any time soon even though he is technically legal. The current recommendations are 4'9" minimum to be safely out of a booster. I view the "under 15 in the backseat" recommendations the same way. It may be legal to move them to the front seat when they are 13 but is it safe? To use your example, it may be legal in your state to get a learners permit at 14 and a restricted license at 15 but does that mean that it is safe? I would argue that it isn't, at least for my child. I am sure there are plenty of parents in your state that do not let their children get their learners at 14 even though it is legal. And as to your other point, it may not be a bad idea to move drivers ed to college. Other countries restrict driving until teens are 18...not a bad idea in my opinion.


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## soxthecatrules (Oct 20, 2008)

Our state is adjusting the new drivers age. But, what I wrote is what is current. I think in the end its going to be 17. But, I don't know what will change for the kids on the farm. I'm sure you're still going to have farm kids driving real early out of sheer necessity.

As far as moving drivers ed to college is concerned. I was 100% COMPLETELY ON MY OWN on the day of my high school graduation. The truth be told I was paying for most of my expenses at age 16. And, this is the case for many young adults. Not having the ability to drive would have seriously hampered my ability to support myself and in the rural areas there is little to no public transportation (although its getting better in my town). I can certainly understand not issuing full drivers licenses until 17. But, there comes a point where you have to balance utmost safety to reality and practicality. And sometimes reality wins out.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnnieA* 
The current recommendations are 4'9" minimum to be safely out of a booster.

Are you serious??

I have some elderly relatives who are less than 4'9" tall (although most of them were 5'2" or so when they were younger.)

My 13yo is 105 lbs and about 4'7" tall. Her hips have been too wide for a booster seat for YEARS. She fits properly in the vehicle seat belts. Just for fun, she's tried sitting in DS' booster seat (Graco Turbo Booster) . She doesn't fit.

FWIW, my teens ride in the middle or back of my van 99% of the time. However, if we have a full car (and I'm the only adult) then I'll let one of the teens ride up front.


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## soxthecatrules (Oct 20, 2008)

Ruthla....I'm hearing ya!!! My 83 yo MIL should technically be riding in a booster in the backseat. Don't see that happening anytime soon as she is still riding a motorcycle at this point!!! LOL


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Infatilizing teens is not going to help them. I was one that had to work in high school. Actually I went to a high school "A LOT" of people had to work. Had want want to. I do wonder how these laws making driving ages older and older are effecting groups of people that have to work. Now they are driving illegally or being more of a burden to society.

I am all for car infant seats but we also cannot bubble our kids. There comes a point were we have to "accept" the risk. Before we bought our larger car we accepted the "risk" and let our son ride up front. We will allow our oldest daughter to in friends car. Since she is so tall. My kids tower many adults it is hard to justify they don't fit because of size. Also I don't feel they are safer being in the back seat arguing with each other because they are touching each other and distracting the driver. Are they really safer when they are wiggling and fighting not sitting properly in their seat belts?


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## soxthecatrules (Oct 20, 2008)

"I am all for car infant seats but we also cannot bubble our kids. There comes a point were we have to "accept" the risk. "

Marsupialmom...this can be applied to MANY different parenting/childbirth topics. We can worry ourselves crazy and make the children we are so desperately trying to protect and care for complete and total mental cases. There just comes a point where, at times, you have a draw a line and say I'm going to have fun with life and enjoy it and let my kids be kids.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

The current recommendation is actually that a child should remain in a booster until s/he passes the 5-step test (and whatever state law requires). We do not recommend a certain height because differently-shaped children pass at different heights in different cars.

~ shoulder belt crossing between neck and arm, not riding up on neck
~ lap belt crossing low on hips, not riding up on tummy
~ back and buttocks against seat bight (crease)
~ knees bending at edge of seat (and preferably feet resting on floor)
~ able to maintain that position for the entire trip (not wiggling and fighting)


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 

~ shoulder belt crossing between neck and arm, not riding up on neck
~ lap belt crossing low on hips, not riding up on tummy
~ back and buttocks against seat bight (crease)
~ knees bending at edge of seat (and preferably feet resting on floor)
~ able to maintain that position for the entire trip (not wiggling and fighting)

But by this I should be in a booster and I'm 24.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Adults' hip bones are shaped differently than children's. Adults' hips can hold the lap belt in place. Children's don't do that -- that's what the armrests in the booster are for.

And maybe you should be in a booster. I don't know, because I can't see you. But as an adult, it's your choice. Child passenger safety laws and recommendations are to protect children.


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## soxthecatrules (Oct 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
The current recommendation is actually that a child should remain in a booster until s/he passes the 5-step test (and whatever state law requires). We do not recommend a certain height because differently-shaped children pass at different heights in different cars.

~ shoulder belt crossing between neck and arm, not riding up on neck
~ lap belt crossing low on hips, not riding up on tummy
~ back and buttocks against seat bight (crease)
~ knees bending at edge of seat (and preferably feet resting on floor)
~ able to maintain that position for the entire trip (not wiggling and fighting)

I'm not sure that I would pass this test. I think during most trips I would fail 3 out of the 5. I don't think there is a booster that I will fit into. Darn!! LOL


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I realize that was tongue-in-cheek, but I'm a big woman with a big booty, and there's a backless booster out there that I can almost fit into!


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I couldn't maintain the wiggling one.


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## soxthecatrules (Oct 20, 2008)

I've often wondered who all would fit in the backless portion DS Nautilus!! All of the junk in my trunk definitely wouldn't fit!!









Honestly, while speaking of car safety, I've often wished that I could sit farther back from the steering wheel. Don't like being that close to an airbag. I've never really checked into it other than looking at some Ford vehicles with adjustable foot pedals.


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## Flower of Bliss (Jun 13, 2006)

I'm 4ft 10 inches, and 36 weeks pregnant (and measuring 39 weeks). I often feel like I should be better protected in the car, especially while pregnant. I've seriously considered finding a booster seat for myself to get the seat belts to fit better. However, I'm not sure the lift of a booster seat would work to my advantage as it would likely require me to bring my seat closer to the steering wheel (and thus air bag) to reach the pedals. Honestly, I think when NOT pregnant, I pass the 5 step test in my civic just fine.

FWIW, my mom got a van when I was in high school (she'd recently remarried and we were then a family with 6 kids, so the van was a bit necessary). It had air bags, and although she did not meet the height or weight requirements to be in front of an air bag, she couldn't get anyone to disable it. She was terrified of the air bag, and would not allow me (or my younger siblings) to sit in front. I didn't feel infantilized. Not at all. I bought a small car that I fit in well when I was 16, and learned to drive in it. I married at 18 and have been supporting myself and living independently since I finished high school. Her safety concerns indicated her concern for my safety and nothing more.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

FlowerofBliss and soxthecatrules, you might want to look into pedal extenders. They will help you sit further back from the air bag.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Adults' hip bones are shaped differently than children's. Adults' hips can hold the lap belt in place. Children's don't do that -- that's what the armrests in the booster are for.

But women come in all shapes and sizes- some adult women are a size 2 and others (not at their slimmest healthy weight) are a size 14. Those size 14 hips are bigger than those size 2 hips. And the woman with the size 14 hips may have had size 4 or 6 hips long before she was done growing. The same thing happens with boys growing into men, although I don't know the size equivilents to use for examples.

This whole conversation about "adult hips vs child hips" just begs the question: at what point during puberty is a child considered "an adult" for the purpose of fitting into a seatbelt? Maybe it happens before puberty in some kids?


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

It's not the shape of the hips, it's the maturity of the hip bones. I cannot remember the correct medical term right now -- it's been a LONG day -- but sometime after puberty the bones become mature enough. This is true for slender women and curvy women and men.


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## CorasMama (May 10, 2002)

The hip bone discussion is all very well and good, but perhaps that should be something the car manufacturers deal with. Because I'm telling you there's no booster, much less a booster with armrests, that my early-pubescent 108lb, 4'11" 11.5-yr-old, will fit into.

She doesn't fit all five of those stated qualifications (her knees bend, but her feet don't rest on the floor), but then again, neither do I in many cars. I'm 5'8" and some shoulder belts hit me at the neck. Unless I'm going to take my shirt off, so my boobs hold the shoulder belt in place, shoulder belts tend to slide across my shirt and hit me across the left breast and right side of my neck (as a passenger, opposite sides if I'm driving, obviously).


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