# A woman's message about the fearless pregnancy!



## wilkers8 (Mar 22, 2004)

This was brought to my attention and just made me so upset. I contemplated not sharing it here because I don't want to upset you wonderful women but I think this woman should know what writing an arrogant book/article like this does to women who do worry and have good reason to.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8284167/

http://fearlesspregnancy.blogspot.co....html#comments


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## JLav (Mar 11, 2003)

Ick.







I couldn't even read the entire article. I did, however, read your responce on the blog...very well said.


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## taradt (Jun 10, 2003)

i can't believe what she is saying.... but it does go with our society that wants reassurance (even misguided) that everything will be ok...
i would hate to be the mom that reads that book and then goes on to feel like a freak when she losses her baby









tara


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## Debstmomy (Jun 1, 2004)

I could not even read the article after reading the blog. It just sounds awful. I have to say, for me, that my fear in my pregnancy helped prepare me for this awful outcome. I had constant fears/thoughts that my baby would not live. When she stopped moving & then no HB, I kept saying, I knew this was going to happen. I was able to remain very calm & make level headed decisions. Now, that is not to say I was not emotional, I was. But because I had this fear & played it out in my head, I was able to handle the shock of it all pretty well. In fact, my family & friends were surprised how "well" I took in all in.
So what I really mean to say, is that sometimes, our fears can help us prepare for realities. At least that is what happened to me.


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## wilkers8 (Mar 22, 2004)

Sorry to upset you by this but I needed to vent to women that I knew would understand why this article was hurtful and offensive to me. Time has gone by and yet I'm still very upset by this. The more I think about it the more that just sits heavily on me. This article essentially tells women that they shouldn't bother their providers with needless fears. Nothing like telling women to not trust their intuition and providers for support. Had my doctor's office just dismissed me when I walked in with no appointment and said "I need peace of mind. Would you check his heartbeat", I would have gone on longer with Connor already gone. I felt comfortable to do this. However, because of articles and information like that, I ignored my feeling the night before. I told myself I was just being dramatic...I wasn't, my son was gone! No wonder I feel so uncomfortable having pregnancy discussions with women, who have not suffered a loss.


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## Debstmomy (Jun 1, 2004)

Wilkers, you did not upset me. I fact I completely agree with you. We do not listen to our "intuition", and that is sad. Perhaps, one day this women will get it.


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## avivaelona (Jun 24, 2005)

Posted my comment on the blog.

Aviva


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## doulanichole (May 11, 2004)

I have to admit that I have not read the blog, but did read the article and am certainly not looking for a fight, but am confused about the reaction to the article. I don't see where anyones fears were dismissed (except for when the OB talks about how much time he spends having to reassure women rather than practice obstetrics - ugh). I also believe very strongly in intuition and that each of us should listen to our own, but again, I don't see where that is discounted in the article. As someone who has suffered multiple losses (although admittedly mine were far earlier than others), I don't understand the upset. I don't think the author was saying don't listen to your intuition, but that she had heard enough horror stories while pregnant that lacked validity due to crappy pregnancy books (What to Expect and it's in-depth description of everything that can go wrong on each and every page) and bad television programming that she was basically being told unless she felt bad, something was wrong with her and/or her baby. There is nothing wrong with some fear and doubt during pregnancy and no doubt anyone who has suffered a loss will probably experience it to a greater extent, but it is the overwhelming unfounded fear of pregnancy, labor and birth that the general population has that is the issue. Everyone loves to have an "I almost died" type story to tell and my guess is the author got tired of hearing it while pregnant - haven't we all been there? I also think there are some pretty valid points in there about litigation, etc. and how it drives OB care. It is late and I am probably not making any sense.


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## sagelove (May 29, 2004)

I tend to kinda agree with doulanichole. I only read the article (not the blog), and while it wasn't that great it wasn't as horrid as I expected.


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## hankiesmama (Jan 20, 2005)

Reading someone so lucky right now makes me sick to my damn stomach.


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## wilkers8 (Mar 22, 2004)

There were many places that I found to be either offensive, belittling, dismissive, etc. Here's what I read that bothered me:

- "Words like "ectopic pregnancy," "blighted ovum," "gestational diabetes" and, of course, the most dreaded word of all "miscarriage" popped out at me from magazines." Stillbirth is not mentioned that immediately says to me that she acts as most of society does that this barely happens and wouldn't even be something she needs to think about. Not to mention, reading this sentence seems to trivilize the pain women have endured because of these dreaded words.

- "The risk, I was later informed by my doctor, is less than minuscule. There's something like a .03 percent chance that anything negative could happen" In reference to an amino, this statistic is completely inaccurate. I had an amino done towards the end of my pregnancy but I was informed of the correct statistics and risks and how they differ based on the stage of the pregnancy. Don't quote statistics that are inaccurate and give false information that problems don't occur.

- "who I was interviewing for a story that I had no hyperemesis gravidarum, she lowered her voice and said, "Oh, please tell me you were maybe a little queasy a few times." She was suggesting there was something wrong if I wasn't sick!" This is why people need to be educated about pregnancy...what can and does go wrong and why. Continuing the ignorance is not going to solve the problem. Not to mention this whole section gives the impression that hyperemisis gravidarum is similiar to morning sickness. Tell that to someone who had it and I bet they have a few words for you.

- "So either I was a displaced native of the Republic of Seychelles or I was just one of those 50 percent who didn't get sick. " In regards to morning sickness, again an incorrect statistic.

- "my Los Angeles obstetrician, Dr. Stuart Fischbein, he told me how frustrated he'd become. In the last decade or so - maybe because of the increasingly litigious nature of our country - with the various alarming consent and disclaimer forms now required in medical practices, the government warnings on everything from gas pumps to public buildings, all the new tests that are often helpful but also scare women silly and the increased access to sometimes dubious medical information or reports, pregnancy anxiety has drastically escalated. It has become so bad, according to Fischbein, that he spends half his day not practicing medicine but simply calming fears." I read this and it says to me...don't bother your doctor with your concerns and worries. I'm so glad my provider wasn't dismissive as my intuition told me to go into the office to have his heart checked...there was no beat.

- ""The television programs ... show a birth and they say something like 'Will Megan and her baby survive? We'll find out right after this commercial!' They create a lot of anxiety because they give women the impression that we're all high-risk and the truth is that the vast majority of us are incredibly low-risk," I don't know about you but the last time I saw someone on a popular show loose a baby...ER. Although, they showed the events of the actual stillbirth and miscarriage, I was bothered that they didn't show the aftermath of emotional stress. I wish it was more mainstream because then maybe I wouldn't have felt like such a freak and received more support.

- "I learned that despite the "risky" tests, the possible perils of filling your car with gas or eating canned tuna, the recklessness of drinking a caffeinated beverage or taking an aspirin, the odds were overwhelmingly in a pregnant woman's favor that around 40 weeks or so from conception, one way or another and mostly regardless of what she had or hadn't done, the average pregnant woman would deliver a baby and that baby would be just swell." Just swell? Just SWELL? Not for me and not for many others. This again gives people the impression it wouldn't happen to them. I have so many regrets that could have been avoided if I had been more educated and not patted on the head as the low risk woman.

-"I also discovered that once you saw the fetal heartbeat via an early ultrasound when you were around six weeks pregnant, your chances of miscarrying drop to just 2 percent. " Another completely inaccurate statistic.

Do I want women to be as fearful as I am during pregnancy, no I'm pretty dramatic. But I don't want them to be naive and have the same regrets I do either. Or for the women that had they known the symptoms or not been dismissed, the pregnancy loss could have been avoided. Not to mention, don't provide numerous incorrect statistics that makes it sound like pregnancy loss doesn't happen and if so, it's rare.

I'm angry with society for avoiding the topic of pregnancy loss and feel this article assists this viewpoint...It can't happen to you so don't worry. Her response on the blog to the many hurtful emails she received was "And, although my heart goes out to them and I can relate to their suffering in many ways, all the worry in the world would not have changed what happened to these women.". She does not understand my pain and just because I couldn't prevent my son's death, that didn't stop me from regretting that I should have worried as a low risk woman.

I would be interested as to why these statements didn't bother you (not being agrumentative, genuinely interested).


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## doulanichole (May 11, 2004)

Thank you wilkers8 for your honest viewpoint and I don't take your last line to be argumentative at all.

The erroneous statistics are bothersome to me as well and I did notcie that.

- "Words like "ectopic pregnancy," "blighted ovum," "gestational diabetes" and, of course, the most dreaded word of all "miscarriage" popped out at me from magazines." Stillbirth is not mentioned that immediately says to me that she acts as most of society does that this barely happens and wouldn't even be something she needs to think about. Not to mention, reading this sentence seems to trivilize the pain women have endured because of these dreaded words.

I don't see her trivializing anything and I think the word "dread" says it all. I believe she would truly be devastated if she heard any of those words herself. And I guess I still don't why she needs to worry about these things....what good does it do for her to obsess? How can that be good for her and her baby?

I also agree that hyperemisis is not the same as morning sickness and the author does seem confused on this point. I don't understand why you lumped this together with the statement, "this is why people need to be educated about pregnancy...what can and does go wrong and why. Continuing the ignorance is not going to solve the problem." Are you suggesting that if someone doesn't experience m/s that they are far more likely to have a problem? I have never experienced anything more than a couple of queasy moments in the pregnancies where I had children and the only time I felt really awful was when I had a blighted ovum. And I did spend time throughout my first pregnancy worried that something was wrong because I did feel so good and everyone else in the world was busy talking about what a great sign m/s was. So I had to assume that if I didn't have it then there was something wrong with me and/or my baby?

Additionally, I think there is more than enough information out there on pregnancy complications. The overabundance of information is what drives the litigous birth climate in this country as more and more doctors practice fear based medicine instead of evidence based. They then use these same fear and scare tactics on patients insinuating that complications could exist for no other reason than to encourage women to have more testing during pregnancy and interventions during birth. I certainly don't want my OB to use my recurrent losses against me/any other woman in that practice based on my history and fear of being sued for not finding a problem that couldn't be fixed anyways. Now I am not saying that all problems couldn't be detected or a baby can't survive if a problem is detected in time, but what I am saying is that we have to encourage women to listen to their inner wisdom, their intuition, throughout their lives so that when there is a problem they will know when to seek help. So much faith is put into the medical profession, television and other media that women have forgotten how to trust themselves and their bodies. That, in my very humble opinion, is the real problem. We don't need another book outlining potential pregnancy complications and problems, but better info on how and why women can and need to trust themselves.


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## wilkers8 (Mar 22, 2004)

Thanks. It's interesting to read your perspective.

For the first point...my biggest issue is that stillbirth wasn't mentioned. I have had a very difficult time due to the mindset babies don't die after hearing the heartbeat or 20 week ultrasound. Seeing this sentence, really hit home with me as I struggled to find support.

I do think that there are some things that can't be prevented. My son's death was one. That doesn't stop me from wishing I HAD worried. I did have that inner voice tell me something was wrong the evening before but I told myself that I was being ridiculous because babies don't die after hearing the heartbeat. I'm thankful that I didn't fear going to my provider as a walk in to check his heart. What if they dismissed me as just being "obsessed"? I wish I had feared more...I have so many regrets that could have been easily avoided had I read other women's stories here about their stillbirth deliveries.

I had no m/s sickness with either pregnancy. I didn't mean that. I meant that educating women that not having m/s doesn't mean anything. I meant educating women on symptoms that can lead to possibly saving their babies such as for pre-e or incompentent cervix. Would it save all babies, no; but not every loss is inevitable either.

I agree that getting women to trust themselves is very important but sending a message that doctors and midwives are frusterated with the "worried" moms would possibly make mothers second guess whether they should ask their provider. My best friend is an OB-GYN, I have issues with people saying that doctors only pressure because their afraid of lawsuits. Yes, this has become an issue but most doctors I know try to balance what poses less risk to both mom and baby. With that said, I am fully aware there are some very crappy doctors out there!

As for information being out available...I don't think people read "that" section of the books. I didn't for my first pregnancy because I kept being told "you're low-risk. nothing happens now that you've heard a heartbeat. etc". Instead they read articles like this that say "it can't happen to you, so don't worry" (especially with her very optimistic statistics).

It's strange because I think we have some of the same views but very different reactions to the article. Thanks for sharing.


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## XM (Apr 16, 2002)

Huh. Trying to show how pointless worrying is with bad stats? Why not use correct statistics to show how safe birth can be? This essay is written in a tone of denial (of women's reasonable concerns) instead of a tone of support, and that does bother me.

DoulaNichole, I am sorry to hear of your losses







But with all due respect, if your losses were early ones then your take on this article is going to be fundamentally different then those of many of the ladies here. I had an early miscarriage, and a full-term stillbirth (she died while I was pushing, drug-free, full term birth). The difference between an early loss and a mid-to-full term loss is so great they they are barely comprable.

We can talk all we want about 'intuition' and 'women trusting their bodies', but the reality for so many of the women on this board is that the very foundation of that faith in one's body, in one's intuition, has been shaken to the core. It is a long road to find that trust again. I went through a huge emotional journey and ended up having my son at home (and am planning a UC for this baby), but everyone's path is different, complicated, painful, and uniquely their own. It is not my place (or the place of a woman such as the author, who has never had a loss) to tell anyone how to feel or behave about their pregnancy.

Reading an essay telling women not to worry because there is no point is not going to help this process. Yesterday I was reading BFW, and in it Pam England states that, "worry is the work of pregnancy". Pregnancy is a time of processing and mental preperation for birth and motherhood, even more so if you have had a loss. IMO, to dismiss the validity of this process serves no one. I have had a wonderful time this pregnancy, I think I got most of my worrying done when pregnant with ds







but it would be ludicrous for me to deny the experiences of others by telling them that their worries are pointless. Denying the legitimacy of fear does not make it go away.

I agree with Willikers on several points in the article, most importantly I am offended by the offhand way that the writer summarizes how 'irrational' fear is. I daresay that if she (or one of her friends) was one of the unlucky ones, her feelings would be a LOT different. Also, why the cultural silence about stillbirth? In Peggy O'Mara's book, 'Natural Family Living', the ONLY thing she says about it is that, "a miscarriage after 20 weeks is considered a stillbirth." Even in the whole chapter she devoted to grieving... no mention of stillbirth. Amazing, since roughly 1% of births result in stillbirth/infant loss. I am of the impression that there is this cultural beleif that if we don't talk about stillbirth, it won't happen... which of course is patently false.

I am sad for anyone who felt badly after reading this essay. Mamas who have had losses deserve better then to have their feelings invalidated like that


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## homebirthx2 (Jan 3, 2004)

I checked out the first link only. I read down to the part of the doctor's office and the magazine with the disasters that can happen to mother-to-be. I quit after that. I am so glad that with my first and second I didn't read this garbage while I was pregnant with them I would have lost it and been on depression drugs or something else. I have lost two babies and I panic now everytime I am pregnant. I feel better after talking to a doctor or midwife with these fears I have now, I wouldn't feel as comfortable reading this lady's book. A doctor or midwife should be the ones letting the information and stats out not this lady. She should quit the book writing on this and drop the message boards too.


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## doulanichole (May 11, 2004)

XM - I have to admit to being somewhat offended by your response given the fact that I stated this quite clearly in my first post on this topic,"As someone who has suffered multiple losses (although admittedly mine were far earlier than others), I don't understand the upset." I would never begin to compare my losses with some of those on this board, but do still believe my opinion and perspective are valid even if it differs from that of the majority. I didn't for second believe I would have a crowd of posters applauding my thoughts on this topic, but again I thought I might have something different to add that may be worthwhile. I was not referring to women who have experienced losses such as yours as the ones who need to trust thier bodies, etc. (because I know how difficult this is, even though I know you don't think I possibly could understand) just as the author of this article was not specifically addressing this group. She was making broad statements (some of which we agree are inaccuarte) about pregnant women and I believe her points to be pretty valid in reference to women being afraid of everything (remember these are the same women who are scared to death to consume a single Tylenol during pregnancy, but walk in and ask for their epidural before the first contraction). I was simply stating that pregnant women as a whole needed to trust themselves so that when there was a problem that voice inside their heads would not go unnoticed. And why in the world would you want this woman to write anything about stillbirth? She can't even get the stats right for complications due to procedures, why would you think she would be able to accurately describe anything as difficult as stillbirth? And if it makes you feel any better, I cry every time I get a + pregnancy test, which I am sure you can tell is about once a month or so - not out of excitement, but because I am truly scared to death!


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## XM (Apr 16, 2002)

DoulaNichole, I did not mean to offend you, and I never said that your point of view was not valid. I am not one to compare losses, and I would never deny another mamas' pain. What I have learned from talking to other grieving mamas is that the paths are very different (between m/c and later losses), and that is what I was referring to as 'barely comprable'.

The earlier a pregnancy is, the more vulnerable it is. When you get farther along in a pregnancy, and you are really starting to beleive that you will have a live baby, and then you end up losing it... well, I know that the issues I would have if I were to m/c tomorrow at 15w would be different then the issues when we lost our dd at term. The fear you feel when you test positive will by nature be different then the fear I feel when I am term. One is not more valid then the other, they are just different experiences.

Many mamas have said that once they get past the stage they were in with their previous loss, they breathe a little easier. So for a mama who has m/c, often she feels signifigantly better once she gets to, say, 16w. Whereas, someone who lost their baby at term is probably not going to feel like she can relax till the baby is in her arms. Also, the factors concerning m/c are often different then those for a mama with later losses. Different issues, different paths.

I can understand how you could agree with the author on the level of worrying that many women have during pregnancy, but this is not a thread in the regular pregnany board... this thread was started by a mama who had experienced a late loss, and was a discussion of how this essay made her feel (as if her concerns were invalidated) and I think she was right to express that. Its a delicate line we walk, between being told to 'trust our instincts' and to 'not worry so much'... especially after a loss.

As for wether or not I think this woman should be writing about stillbirth, I honestly don't think she should be writing anything! I was commenting on the cultural silence regarding stillbirth, a silence that only adds to the guilt and shame a mother experiences when she has this 'unspeakable' outcome. And even this woman, who felt free to talk about other things she knew so little about, did not make any mention of stillbirth.

It doesn't make me 'feel any better' to know how upset you are when you test positive- perhaps I should take offense at your assumption that I would? Why would I rejoyce in another mother's suffering?

I cannot imagine how heartbreaking it would be to have several losses in a row


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## KatherineinCA (Apr 4, 2002)

Wilkers--Your comment, "I have so many regrets that could have been avoided had I read other women's stillbirth stories" hit home with me for a couple of reasons.

In between my twins and my now-five year-old, I had a miscarriage at ten weeks followed by an ectopic pregnancy two months later. At the time of the miscarriage, I read the "When Something Goes Wrong" section at the back of "What to Expect". After I read the section on "early miscarriage" I happened to browse through the section on "ectopic pregnancy", which just happened to follow alphabetically. Two months after the miscarriage, I recognized that I was experiencing two warning signs of an ectopic pregnancy: dark-brown spotting and severe abdominal pain (along with having missed my period). Because I had read that information recently, it was fresh in my mind, and I immediately went to the ER even though it was midnight. They operated that night. My tube had already ruptured and I can only speculate as to the consequences if I had waited longer. Because I was familiar with the warning signs, I was able to act quickly. If I hadn't known what the warning signs were indicating, I'm sure I would have tried to get through the night, telling myself to just wait and see how I felt in the morning. It's certainly nothing my doctor had ever mentioned to me.

After those two early losses, I spent time reading several books on pregnancy loss. Included in those books were chapters on stillbirth with several women's stories about what they had done to preserve their baby's memory. Five years later, when Kevin was stillborn at full-term, I remembered what I had read. There were so many things I did because they were recommended in those books that I wouldn't have thought of otherwise. You are exactly right that reading about stillbirth ahead of time becomes invaluable to those of us who experience it.

And XM, I agree with you about the absence of information for stillbirth moms in the "general" pregnancy books. When my milk came in, I turned to my breastfeeding books for help and could find nothing. There was absolutely no mention of what to do when you had plenty of milk but no baby to feed. In fact, that was my first post here at PBL, asking for help with the engorgement. I still feel that this issue is one of the most neglected when it comes to talking about stillbirth. And it even applies to another group of women--birth moms who give up their babies for adoption. What would it hurt to include a section for us in the breastfeeding books?

I believe it's possible to include information about both early and late losses and other complications without creating hysteria. There has to be a balance. The author of the article seems to think that if pregnant women's fears are acknowledged and discussed, hysteria results. I wonder if what actually feeds the "hysteria" is the lack of discussion that occurs. Maybe women worry more about what they suspect but is just brushed off by their practitioners and family members? I'm another one who dismissed my baby's slowdown in movement because all the pregnancy books say that movement slows down at the end of the pregnancy. I was so into believing in my body, that I didn't want to jinx that by thinking something might be wrong. That birth was to be my triumphant homebirth, my fist vaginal birth after two c-sections. No one was more into trusting their body than I was! Maybe if there was a way to believe in your body while still discussing possible complications...?

Another thought. At nine weeks during my first pregnancy, I learned I was expecting twins. I had already been hospitalized once for IV hydration because of my severe vomiting. After I learned I was having twins, I went to the library and checked out several books on twins. As I started reading, I read about the increased risks of premature babies, and all sorts of information about the NICU, heart monitors at home, losing one or both babies, etc. I became so panicked that my vomiting became even worse. I had to not read any more books about twins until later in my pregnancy, (and even then I tried to limit it to information about preparing to care for two babies), because it scared me so badly that it affected my health. So, I really don't know what the answer is! How do we read enough to be informed in a way that benefits us, while limiting information that simply over-burdens us?!

Wilkers, thanks for posting the article. It's an important issue for me and (obviously) has prompted quite a bit of thought. I know I will face this issue head-on if I ever have another baby.


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## wilkers8 (Mar 22, 2004)

KatherineCA...You're stories are exactly why I wish I and other pregnant women were more educated on what can and does go wrong. I don't know where the line is and it very well may very with each individual but I can't help think about how many lives could be saved, severe illnesses could be prevented, etc.

XM...I definitely have no trust in my body now. Even today after a successful subsequent pregnancy and almost a year and a half after Connor's death, I still doubt what and how I am feeling often. My intuition told me Connor was gone and I ignored it for an evening. My intuition was all over the place with Sean's pregnancy. I have no idea when and if I'll ever trust my instincts or body again. However, reading your stories, always gives me some hope.

I don't want this woman writing about stillbirth but ignoring this as a possible reality of pregnancy is not an option either. Then again, if she did mention it she would probably just state wrong statistics anyway. This constant lack of acknowledging stillborns is what partially made me feel isolated, ashamed, guilty, etc.

I struggle almost daily with the regrets that I have because I wasn't educated enough. I ignored reality because I was told to not worry. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't wish I could go back to the day I delivered Connor. Not to avoid Connor's death as I know it couldn't have been avoided but to get rid of these regrets that could have been.

Does this article meet the needs of most of society...probably. However, I'm thinking about the woman that reads this and then gets blindsided by her loss. She then comes here and reads my journal about Connor and it becomes painfully obvious what regrets she now has to face day after day. Is she a minority...maybe...but she is the woman that I'm worried about. I would never wish this on anyone but I wonder how a woman would feel if she wrote an article/book like this and then suffered a stillborn loss.

Not to mention, for all of the people in my real life that reads an article like this and then hears about my fears during subsequent pregnancies...these are the people, who then have the balls to look at me and say "just be positive...nothing bad will probably happen, you heard the heartbeat".


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## bobacat (May 20, 2004)

I don't post very often. I generally just lurk here. But this article really offended me too. I think the biggest problem I have with it (aside from completely ignoring stillbirth) was just the tone. I think that said XM said it well when she said that this woman focused on how pointless worrying was when she might have focused on how safe pregnancy could be.

One of the biggest issues I have had after losing my son was how I relate to other women who have not had late losses. Before I lost my son I always just assumed that it could never happen to me and that those who is did happen to must have had something wrong with them. Not that they were bad people, but that something must have just been "off" with them or the baby. But then my own baby died and there was no definitive reason and I was very low risk.

I get very bothered by knowing that women must look at me like that. They say...oh poor Roxanne...but do they ever really think...that could be me? I don't think so, because who wants to think that!

I feel like this article plays right into that denial mentality. It makes me feel freakish and bizarre for being so worried. But I worry because I am not naive and innocent...and believe me...I WAS during the first pregnancy. I barely worried at all after about 8 weeks. I think it also sends a message to those who have not lost babies that we who have are strange and abnormal...it could never happen to them!

I am 19 weeks pregnant with my second child and when I read things like this from women who have clearly not experienced loss or complications it makes me wonder how I will ever be able to join a play-group or become friends with women who have not been through what I've been through. Because it makes me feel like they totally don't get it...these are the kinds of people who say things like...well, it was a blessing because something was probably wrong with the baby...or...you can always have another child...people who just don't have a clue and would rather stick their heads in the sand than face up to reality.

Roxanne


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