# So what does CPS look for? Can they inestigate over any concerned call from someone? I'm in Canada.



## MamitaM

I'm not to worried about CPS coming around or anything,but I suppose it could happen to anyone. So what does CPS look for when they come to your door? Do they need some kind of warrant or paper work to come in when they arrive unannounced? How clean does you home need to be? How much food do you need to have in your home?


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## purslaine

Hi









I am in Ontario, I have called CAS (CPS for Americans) on someone, and my neighbour had dealings with them.

Here is what I know:

If you call, one of three things will happen (as told to me by CAS when I called on someone)

-they will discuss it and go no further

-they will call the family

-they will visit the family

If they visit, they might take pictures. They are looking for:

food in the house

bed for kids

proper clothing

drugs, dangerous things left out, etc

My sister, who lives in Montreal, has a friend who is a cop - the cop says the house has to be really filthy for them to consider removal.

I do not know whether or not you have to let them in. My gut says "no". They might not be able to close the file unless they come in and check things out, though. I am not sure whether I would let them in or not. You can always, if they come to the door, say you are on your way out and "would they like to make an appointment?". I would have DP or a friend around for the appointment - I think they may be more careful if there is an audience.

Here is a pamphlet from Quebec - it may be useful

http://publications.msss.gouv.qc.ca/acrobat/f/documentation/2008/08-838-01A.pdf


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## beenmum

If CAS comes knocking, do not stop them from comming in. Seriosuly, these people have the right to remove your child. I know some people say "Its my house, they cant just come in w/o a warrent."

YEs they can. And if you refuse, you will be looked at more closely then someone who opens their doors even tho their dishes arent done and the kids beds arent made.

These people dont care about that. They have been called to ensure your kids are safe. Why not allow them to see that they are safe and you will cooperate any way you can to have the case closed.

CAS doesnt want to take kids. Foster homes are scarse, ill paid and often illequipted to deal with some of the thigns they have seen.

If your neighbour called b/c of a grudge, your b/c your breatfeeding your 2 year old......they are not gonna take your kids.

But if you block them...they automatically feel there is something you want to hide.

You have rights..but seriously you need (in general) to put your kids first. If nothign is wrong then there is nothing to hide.

Procedure is this: There are levels of concern.

Level one is a complaint but no worker sent out. If 3 of these types of complaints have been made, they will send someone out.

If there is a suggestion of abuse and you have a 2 year old or younger in the home, they have to send someone in 2 hours or less.


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## waiting2bemommy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> If CAS comes knocking, do not stop them from comming in. Seriosuly, these people have the right to remove your child. I know some people say "Its my house, they cant just come in w/o a warrent."
> 
> YEs they can. And if you refuse, you will be looked at more closely then someone who opens their doors even tho their dishes arent done and the kids beds arent made.
> 
> These people dont care about that. They have been called to ensure your kids are safe. Why not allow them to see that they are safe and you will cooperate any way you can to have the case closed.
> 
> CAS doesnt want to take kids. Foster homes are scarse, ill paid and often illequipted to deal with some of the thigns they have seen.
> 
> If your neighbour called b/c of a grudge, your b/c your breatfeeding your 2 year old......they are not gonna take your kids.
> 
> But if you block them...they automatically feel there is something you want to hide.
> 
> You have rights..but seriously you need (in general) to put your kids first. If nothign is wrong then there is nothing to hide.
> 
> Procedure is this: There are levels of concern.
> 
> Level one is a complaint but no worker sent out. If 3 of these types of complaints have been made, they will send someone out.
> 
> If there is a suggestion of abuse and you have a 2 year old or younger in the home, they have to send someone in 2 hours or less.


I assume this is Canadian law, because that's not how it works in the US. They didn't come in my house, and they didn't take my kids. And there was an allegation of sexual abuse. And they came with the police. I told them, in front of the cop, to make an appointment. I don't let friends in my house unanounced when it's a mess, why wouold I let some random stranger who doesn't even have children come in and tell me whether I'm doing it right?

I videotaped every interaction and let them know I was doing it. I took down the cop's badge number, and the last name and supervisor's name of the two case workers. the experience still sucked, believe me, but I did NOT just fling open my door and say "come on in." That's foolhardy.


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## LROM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> I assume this is Canadian law, because that's not how it works in the US. They didn't come in my house, and they didn't take my kids. And there was an allegation of sexual abuse. And they came with the police. I told them, in front of the cop, to make an appointment. I don't let friends in my house unanounced when it's a mess, why wouold I let some random stranger who doesn't even have children come in and tell me whether I'm doing it right?
> 
> I videotaped every interaction and let them know I was doing it. I took down the cop's badge number, and the last name and supervisor's name of the two case workers. the experience still sucked, believe me, but I did NOT just fling open my door and say "come on in." That's foolhardy.


Actually, what Beenmum said IS how it works... in many states. I don't know if you are in a state that doesn't work that way, or if for some reason the CPS worker and cops that responded to you decided not to insist on seeing your kids, but in most states - depending on the allegations - CPS DOES have a right to see your kids, and if you refuse, - again, depending on the allegations - they can come back with a cop and insist or take your kids. That is true in most states. Because, as Beenmum said, CPS's primary and *legal*responsibility is to protect children from abuse and neglect. CPS is usually not gonna force their way in for a dirty house complaint... but for serious abuse complaints, yes, they can and they should.

And another thing Beenmum says that is also absolutely true for most of the 50 states: even where you can tell CPS to go away and make an appt or come back when you, the parent, want them to, there is absolutely immediately a raised concern about why you don't want CPS to see/talk to your kids if you refuse. Even though CPS can't and shouldn't take any actual action against a parent (like removing kids) until there is substantiated (confirmed) abuse or neglect, depending on what the allegations are there is a raised concern where a parent refuses to produce the kids or speak to CPS or let the kids be spoken to. What that raised concern means CPS does next... is a local issue. But for the most part, if anyone ever called CPS on me (and I work for CPS!) I'd immediately let them in and let them see/speak to my kid, because I have nothing to hide. And I honestly see that most parents who do that - *especially* where the report is a malicious one by someone just wanting to cause trouble for the family - the sooner the CPS worker can see there are no concerns, the fast the issue is closed and you are not bothered.

Of course, if you've got something to hide, that's a different issue. And if you've got a real, profound distrust of CPS, that is also an issue, and some people have good reason to have that distrust. But what I am saying about how the refusal to talk or produce the kids is seen is true almost across the board, so even with a profound distrust, you still need to understand some of the consequences of not speaking to CPS or coorperating - even where you know 100% for sure that someone meaning to cause you harm made the report.

And for the record, the number of malicious reports CPS receives (in US and in Canada) is seriously miniscule compared to the number of reports where there are real issues. Tiny. Please keep that in mind too - CPS has a lot more important things to do than go out and investigate bogus reports, so the faster we can figure out it's bogus, the better for those who really need CPS interventions.


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## beenmum

Thank you LROM. I did work with CAS and did my foster parent training with them. I am well versed in how this works. I dont knw anyone who has said "No you can not see my kids whom you are sworn to protect b/c I should hav rights that keep my kids safety from being investiagted.

Shoudlnt happen. Ever.

And they CAN just come into your home. They do not need an invitation. IF you refuse, you will be put to the fdront of the caseload and you will have a judge signing to remove your kids before the end of the day.

seriously, telling the CAS that your home is too untidy to let them in, is foolhearty. You will be red flagged. They HAVE to investigate.


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## purslaine

I am not sure the above is true - they may need a warrant to come into your house and if they do not have grounds they might not get one.

However, that does put CPS in an awkward spot - they cannot close the case until they tick off all their boxes - seeing your kids and your house is a box.

I am not sure what i would do if CPS landed on my door. If the house was not a disaster area I would let them in. If it was, we could meet on the porch, I would bring my kids outside so they could see them, and I would arrange a visit for in the future if they still wanted one.

In my mind my house is never dirty enough to warrant intervention - but clean is subjective, and no way am I taking my chances on someone trying to make a case, or a mess-phobe (unlikely, I know)

i suppose it could raise red flags that I refuse to let them in right away, but mess can raise red flags too. Pick your flag. At least with refusing to let them in everything they think is assumption - there is no proof.


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## beenmum

They do NOT need a warrent to come into your home. They need a warrent to remove your kids. Which they can get by the end of the day if you refuse them access to your children. Lack of access means the kids safety can not be verified. And CAS will remove your kids if you have obstructed their jobs in anyway.

Its a fact.

You have had 2 people who work(ed) for them tell you this. Please take it to heart so you are not risking your kids removal b/c you thhink your house isnt tidy enough.

There has to be an immediate danger to the safety of your kids in your home (medications left through the house, drugs, garbadge from room to room, feces and rotten food and lack of proper beds, food and tioletries before they will take your kids for a messy house.

I have seen this first hand. Walked into homes that had rat poo, garbadge and small peices strewn all over. They gave the women 4 hours to clean it to "safety" standards. Not CLEAN, SAFE.


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## purslaine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> And they CAN just come into your home. They do not need an invitation. IF you refuse, you will be put to the fdront of the caseload and you will have a judge signing to remove your kids before the end of the day.


A judge is going to remove my kids because I refuse entry at this exact minute? Seriously? On what grounds? What happened to presumed innocence?


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## APToddlerMama

Thank you LROM. I hope this doesn't turn into another MDC CPS hysteria thread.

OP, I'm a social worker and as long as I don't have animal or human poop piling up in my house, 25 bags of garbage in my living room, used needles on my countertop, 30 unfed cats, or a family of rats living here, I don't worry. Seriously. I never even would *think* to make sure I had food in my house for a surprise CPS visit. I have enough food for our needs, and that is that. CPS has way better things to do than investigate bogus allegations. If your child doesn't look malnourished and hungry, they aren't going to care about your food situation. If they *do*, it is typically to help link families to resources so that they can get the food they need. Poverty isn't a reason to remove children from homes. Don't be fearful of CPS.... they truly aren't out to get you and you are way more likely to get struck by lightening that have CPS come out and grab your child.


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## purslaine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> They do NOT need a warrent to come into your home. They need a warrent to remove your kids. Which they can get by the end of the day if you refuse them access to your children. Lack of access means the kids safety can not be verified. And CAS will remove your kids if you have obstructed their jobs in anyway.
> 
> Its a fact.
> 
> You have had 2 people who work(ed) for them tell you this. Please take it to heart so you are not risking your kids removal b/c you thhink your house isnt tidy enough.
> 
> There has to be an immediate danger to the safety of your kids in your home (medications left through the house, drugs, garbadge from room to room, feces and rotten food and lack of proper beds, food and tioletries before they will take your kids for a messy house.
> 
> I have seen this first hand. Walked into homes that had rat poo, garbadge and small peices strewn all over. They gave the women 4 hours to clean it to "safety" standards. Not CLEAN, SAFE.


I am going to bow out of this conversation because I just do not know and do not want to give out false information.

There are numerous stories and information all over the internet on whether or not you have to admit CPS to your house. I think people should read all sides and figure out what they feel best doing.

On a personal level, I am not worried for one moment about CPS showing up on my doorstep - nor am I worried for one moment about my ability to have them close the case in quick order.


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## LROM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> A judge is going to remove my kids because I refuse entry at this exact minute? Seriously? On what grounds? What happened to presumed innocence?


You're missing a key factor that both beenmum and I said - IT DEPENDS ON THE ALLEGATIONS. It depends on the nature of the report that was received and what type of abuse/neglect someone said your kids were experiencing.

And if it's bad enough, and you refuse to allow CPS to see your kids and speak to you and your kids, YES, because someone has given specific enough and serious enough information to make the concern about the safety/wellbeing of your children the top priority.

No one has said you are presumed guilty because you refuse entry, so I don't have a clue what you're talking about with "presumed innocence" - insisting on seeing your kids does not presume guilt. It insures that a serious allegation of bad stuff happening to your kids has been checked out, because that is our job and kids who are abused are in no position to protect themselves.

Again, children cannot be REMOVED unless there is a confirmed case of child maltreatment, and trust me, almost all over North America it has to be VERY serious for the kids to actually be removed on the spot. The far far FAR more common situation is that CPS finds serious concerns but does not remove in hopes that with supports the family can stay together. Or we work with the parents to identify family/friends known to parent and child that the child could stay with while the safety threat is dealt with.

So just to make sure this is clearn, no, no judge is going to allow a child to be removed (nor is CPS going to remove a child) simply because you refused entry to your house. What CPS/a judge CAN insist on is that your children are seen and you adn your kids (if old enough) are talked to about the allegations and that whatever CPS needs to do to further check out the allegations is done. And yes, if the allegations are serious enough and you refuse to cooperate, CPS can take your kids because again, if the allegations are true, they are in no position to protect themselves.

Guilt or - more accurately - abuse or neglect - is never assumed. It is investigated and either confirmed or there is an official record that no evidence of maltreatment was found. If it's confirmed, and understand it usually takes some pretty obvious stuff for it to be confirmed, and it's the type of abuse that removal is required to insure safety, YES, yoru kids will be removed. But never just solely because you wouldn't let CPS in when they showed up at your door.


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## APToddlerMama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> A judge is going to remove my kids because I refuse entry at this exact minute? Seriously? On what grounds? What happened to presumed innocence?


Child safety is considered more important that "presumed innocence," which is how it should be. And it really isn't about guilt or innocence anyhow...it is about ensuring that a child is safe, and it is impossible to know without access. It isn't like the parent gets carted off to jail immediately. There are a lot of individuals on these boards who seem to think CPS is public enemy number one. 99% of the time, CPS is investigating serious allegations. Truthfully, we should be willing to accept that there are rare occassions when a family may have contact with CPS for bogus reasons, but this ensures that the other 99 children CPS has contact with are hopefully protected from abuse and neglect.

If you have nothing to hide, your best bet is to let CPS "investigate." That is the best way to make them go away. A person refusing access to their home or child seems like someone who has something to hide.


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## Drummer's Wife

I'm not in Canada, so I won't pretend to know anything about their version of CPS; however, I am positive that there are far more children who are killed or injured every year b/c they were left in their homes compared to the amount of children who are unjustly removed from their home.

Just something to think about when you worry about CPS involvement, and for anyone who is convinced they are out to take your kids from you for no reason.

I would hate, hate, hate it if I had child protection all up in my business investigating my family and putting us through hell. More important, though, is that children who are abused and neglected are adequately protected, as they should be.


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## Irishmommy

I'm in Ontario and I'm a former foster parent. Beenmum is correct except for (unless they've changed things) the needing a warrant to remove your kids. They don't need a warrant to come in and speak with your kids, and can speak with the kids at school if needed. The workers in my area at least do not make the removal decision. They always call the supervisor, give a report, and the supervisor makes the decision. The kids can be removed on the spot, and they have, iirc 48 hours to get before a judge to justify removal (could be 72, I can't remember offhand). Then the judge decides yay or nay to keeping the kids in care.

I have seen foster parents with messy houses. I have seen parents keep their kids while living in houses that I wouldn't keep a dog in. I have seen CAS pay $10,000 to get someone's house cleaned to a decent standard, so the kids can stay with their parents. I have seen ONE removal that in hindsight wasn't necessary, but at the time it was, and those kids were with me 15 hours before being returned home.


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## waiting2bemommy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LROM*
> 
> Actually, what Beenmum said IS how it works... in many states. I don't know if you are in a state that doesn't work that way, or if for some reason the CPS worker and cops that responded to you decided not to insist on seeing your kids, but in most states - depending on the allegations - CPS DOES have a right to see your kids, and if you refuse, - again, depending on the allegations - they can come back with a cop and insist or take your kids. That is true in most states. Because, as Beenmum said, CPS's primary and *legal*responsibility is to protect children from abuse and neglect. CPS is usually not gonna force their way in for a dirty house complaint... but for serious abuse complaints, yes, they can and they should.
> 
> And another thing Beenmum says that is also absolutely true for most of the 50 states: even where you can tell CPS to go away and make an appt or come back when you, the parent, want them to, there is absolutely immediately a raised concern about why you don't want CPS to see/talk to your kids if you refuse. Even though CPS can't and shouldn't take any actual action against a parent (like removing kids) until there is substantiated (confirmed) abuse or neglect, depending on what the allegations are there is a raised concern where a parent refuses to produce the kids or speak to CPS or let the kids be spoken to. What that raised concern means CPS does next... is a local issue. But for the most part, if anyone ever called CPS on me (and I work for CPS!) I'd immediately let them in and let them see/speak to my kid, because I have nothing to hide. And I honestly see that most parents who do that - *especially* where the report is a malicious one by someone just wanting to cause trouble for the family - the sooner the CPS worker can see there are no concerns, the fast the issue is closed and you are not bothered.
> 
> Of course, if you've got something to hide, that's a different issue. And if you've got a real, profound distrust of CPS, that is also an issue, and some people have good reason to have that distrust. But what I am saying about how the refusal to talk or produce the kids is seen is true almost across the board, so even with a profound distrust, you still need to understand some of the consequences of not speaking to CPS or coorperating - even where you know 100% for sure that someone meaning to cause you harm made the report.
> 
> And for the record, the number of malicious reports CPS receives (in US and in Canada) is seriously miniscule compared to the number of reports where there are real issues. Tiny. Please keep that in mind too - CPS has a lot more important things to do than go out and investigate bogus reports, so the faster we can figure out it's bogus, the better for those who really need CPS interventions.


I did let them see my ds....I put a coat on him and brought him to the front stoop. I simpy did not let them in. My thought process was this: right now, all they know is what they were told. They have no proof. If I bring them into this house, who is to say they won't find 5 more things that they don't like? According to the laws, as long as they can see that the children are alive and not visibly hurt, they can't remove them. Now if I had refused to let them see my ds, they could have forced their way into the house to make sure he was alright. That is understandable.....they want to make sure the child is ok. There is no need to inspect my house. They also forced me to sign a document that put me at serious risk because there was no way for me to abide by it, and if they caught us breaking the terms of the agreement (that DP have no contact with either of the children, even by phone, or be in the same place as them, even at our religious meetings) then they could theoretically say "oh, you put your kids in danger" even though I knew that the accusation was 100% malicious and untrue. I had to tread very lightly and proceed with extreme caution while the case was open. So I'm not saying don't cooperate with CPS. My issue was that they sent a 20-something single chick with no kids, and a cop with a very nasty attitude, to my front door. What are either of them going to tell ME about raising my children, and who are they to decide whether it's being done right? A degree does not an expert make. I guess my point is, they can make an issue about "concerns" that re not legitimately an issue. Co sleeping, for example. It was one of the complaints that my mom raised (our sleeping setup for the kids at her house). We think her real reason is that she wanted ds sleeping alone ikn his room so that he would be easier to access. I know that is sick, but ufortunately a reall possibility. But for CPS it's a SIDS issue and a big deal. Not letting CPS in gave me time to decide whether I wanted to make the hoiuse how they wanted to see it (a crib and all that.) all I ended up doing was putting a bedrail on the bed, and cleaning up a bit. but I find that decisions made hastily are usually regretted later.


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## limabean

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
> They don't need a warrant to come in and speak with your kids...


How does that work though? If a CPS worker shows up on a doorstep and a parent refuses entry, the CPS worker is allowed to just barge their way in or what? I have no idea how CPS works, so my whole knowledge of allowing entry into my home is based on cop shows (heh), where a warrant is always required. How is the general public supposed to be aware that CPS workers have special privileges when it comes to home entry? And I have no idea what official CPS identification looks like, so if some stranger appears on my doorstep, even with an official-looking badge of some sort, they aren't coming inside my house. Wouldn't I be putting my kids at risk if I just let some stranger in my home?

Anyway, CPS never ever crosses my mind except for when I read threads about it on MDC, so I'm not worried about this stuff for myself, but I do think it's too bad that CPS apparently has all these special rules that no one is aware of, but that parents will be dinged for not knowing.


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## Mrs. Bratton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> I did let them see my ds....I put a coat on him and brought him to the front stoop. I simpy did not let them in. My thought process was this: right now, all they know is what they were told. They have no proof. If I bring them into this house, who is to say they won't find 5 more things that they don't like? According to the laws, as long as they can see that the children are alive and not visibly hurt, they can't remove them. Now if I had refused to let them see my ds, they could have forced their way into the house to make sure he was alright. That is understandable.....they want to make sure the child is ok. There is no need to inspect my house. They also forced me to sign a document that put me at serious risk because there was no way for me to abide by it, and if they caught us breaking the terms of the agreement (that DP have no contact with either of the children, even by phone, or be in the same place as them, even at our religious meetings) then they could theoretically say "oh, you put your kids in danger" even though I knew that the accusation was 100% malicious and untrue. I had to tread very lightly and proceed with extreme caution while the case was open. So I'm not saying don't cooperate with CPS. My issue was that they sent a 20-something single chick with no kids, and a cop with a very nasty attitude, to my front door. What are either of them going to tell ME about raising my children, and who are they to decide whether it's being done right? A degree does not an expert make. I guess my point is, they can make an issue about "concerns" that re not legitimately an issue. Co sleeping, for example. It was one of the complaints that my mom raised (our sleeping setup for the kids at her house). We think her real reason is that she wanted ds sleeping alone ikn his room so that he would be easier to access. I know that is sick, but ufortunately a reall possibility. But for CPS it's a SIDS issue and a big deal. Not letting CPS in gave me time to decide whether I wanted to make the hoiuse how they wanted to see it (a crib and all that.) all I ended up doing was putting a bedrail on the bed, and cleaning up a bit. but I find that decisions made hastily are usually regretted later.


Just because a social worker does not have children doesn't mean she is not an expert. They CAN still determine whether or not your house is a fit place for a child to live according to the law. I don't understand how a person would have to be a parent to make that call, especially when that is their job and what they are trained to do and, yes, a degree does kind of make you an expert, lol. I would argue that just having kids does not make one an expert.


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## beenmum

There IS no presumed innocent when it comes to the safety of a child that a person has been hired to protect.

This isnt court. These people are comming b/c someone said your kids are being maltreated or abused.

Would you tell a police officer to come back later if they had a call about someones safety? Would the cop leave if you asked them to please comeback later, after you have cleaned your house?

How about the fire brigade? Would you tell them to come back later?

Of course not.

Why in the world would you ask the people who have come on a call that your kids safety is at risk to come back later? Their job is to ensure the kids are safe, at that moment.

This is the US law

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, *against unreasonable searches and seizures,* shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, *but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized*

If they have probable cause to think that your child is in danger b/c of a reasonable suspicion given to them by a thrid party, they have the legal right to search and seize.


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## beenmum

If it is a serious allegation, they return later with a warrent to remove your kids b/c they were unable to complete their investigation that your children were safe and their home was secure of any dangers. (Not clean, but safe).

Why risk that? I am truely at a loss b/c I dont understand why someone would refuse the CPS the ability to ensure your children are safe. They dont want to remove your kids.

They want to ensure that your kids are not being harmed.

Parents abuse their kids. Parents murder their kids. I have seen it first hand.

Thats why CPS is there. The workers dont know you from Eve. If someone says that your bausing your kids, then they have to ensure your not. Its as simple as that.


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## beenmum

Your absoluetely right, they can speak to your kids w/o a warrent. I believe that they cant remove your kids w/o a warrent.


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## limabean

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> If it is a serious allegation, they return later with a warrent to remove your kids b/c they were unable to complete their investigation that your children were safe and their home was secure of any dangers. (Not clean, but safe).
> 
> Why risk that? I am truely at a loss b/c I dont understand why someone would refuse the CPS the ability to ensure your children are safe. They dont want to remove your kids.
> 
> They want to ensure that your kids are not being harmed.
> 
> Parents abuse their kids. Parents murder their kids. I have seen it first hand.
> 
> Thats why CPS is there. The workers dont know you from Eve. If someone says that your bausing your kids, then they have to ensure your not. Its as simple as that.


I'm not arguing that kids shouldn't be protected from abusive parents and caretakers. I'm saying that there's a significant lack of widespread community education and awareness about what is and isn't legal and acceptable when it comes to CPS workers. I wouldn't know the first thing about how to verify that the person standing on my porch and demanding to see my children is, in fact, a CPS worker and not some nutter who is trying to harm me or my kids. If a stranger appears on my doorstep and demands to see my children, you can bet that my first reaction will be one of skepticism and defensiveness -- isn't that fairly natural?

And the whole "if you have nothing to hide, what's the problem?" thing is such a slippery slope. I don't use drugs or have any in my home, but that doesn't mean that I'd submit to a cavity search because a stranger appeared on my doorstep and asked to see my rectum, you know? They may well be able to force me to submit to a search eventually, but they'd have to jump through every legal hoop first, and it wouldn't be because I had something to hide.


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## purslaine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *limabean*
> 
> I'm not arguing that kids shouldn't be protected from abusive parents and caretakers. I'm saying that there's a significant lack of widespread community education and awareness about what is and isn't legal and acceptable when it comes to CPS workers. I wouldn't know the first thing about how to verify that the person standing on my porch and demanding to see my children is, in fact, a CPS worker and not some nutter who is trying to harm me or my kids. If a stranger appears on my doorstep and demands to see my children, you can bet that my first reaction will be one of skepticism and defensiveness -- isn't that fairly natural?
> 
> And the whole "if you have nothing to hide, what's the problem?" thing is such a slippery slope. I don't use drugs or have any in my home, but that doesn't mean that I'd submit to a cavity search because a stranger appeared on my doorstep and asked to see my rectum, you know? They may well be able to force me to submit to a search eventually, but they'd have to jump through every legal hoop first, and it wouldn't be because I had something to hide.












I actually tried to lookup last night whether or not CAS in Ontario (CPS for Americans) is permitted into your house without a warrant and the answer is murky.

It seems police are allowed into your house without a warrant and may apprehend children without a warrant if they:

a) have serious concerns that children are in danger

b) they do not believe there is time to get a warrant and the situation is grave.

It was less clear on what CAS workers were permitted to do under the law (i.e. enter without permission - not that I can see this happening). It also does not mention what serious concerns are - is a third party report a serious concern? Abuse and danger might be - but neglect other than serious neglect might not be.

I actually spent about 1/2 hour trying to dig up an answer to this question and got nowhere. I think CAS does not want people to know their rights (suspicious minded of me, I know). People who do not know their rights are easier to manipulate. Flame away at me if you want, but I have seen this (people in power wanting others kept in the dark) over and over again.

I would also like to point out that many of the people that answered here work for CAS or CPS. They are well versed in CAS policy - but CAS policy is not necessarily the law. CAS policy may be that they have to get in the house and talk to the kids - that is fine and dandy - but their rules might not be something that parents have to comply with. The rules on if parents have to comply with entry without a warrant may depend on circumstances (police presence who say "let us in without a warrant" or not). Of course, parents may decide the easiest and best course is to comply - I have no issues with that.

I do not think for one minute that a judge is going terminate a parents rights because they ask to see a warrant. Asking to see a warrant proves nothing - other than you may know your rights. It may look suspicious to CAS workers - but looking suspicious is hardly proof of anything. To think anything else is illogical and assumptive. It almost seems like scare mongerring to say "let them in or they will take your kids". That would be an serious abuse of power if it were true.


----------



## APToddlerMama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mrs. Bratton*
> 
> Just because a social worker does not have children doesn't mean she is not an expert. They CAN still determine whether or not your house is a fit place for a child to live according to the law. I don't understand how a person would have to be a parent to make that call, especially when that is their job and what they are trained to do and, yes, a degree does kind of make you an expert, lol. I would argue that just having kids does not make one an expert.


Agreed. If so many parents were such great experts themselves, there would be no need for CPS. I was once a 20 something childless social worker whose outlook and job didn't change once she had kids. Not to mention, if you have any idea the types of homes social workers go into the vast majority of the time, you would know that your average 8th grader would be able to deem a home unsafe in about 80% of the cases...


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## APToddlerMama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> I do not think for one minute that a judge is going terminate a parents rights because they ask to see a warrant. Asking to see a warrant proves nothing - other than you may know your rights. It may look suspicious to CAS workers - but looking suspicious is hardly proof of anything. To think anything else is illogical and assumptive. It almost seems like scare mongerring to say "let them in or they will take your kids". That would be an serious abuse of power if it were true.


You're really dismissive of the responses of those of us who have/do work in CPS considering you're making guesses as to how social workers and judges will respond. It isn't scare mongering to suggest your best bet is to let CPS in. What sort of motive do you think we have in advising that? If you have nothing to hide, you are best to let CPS in. No, a judge won't TPR because you didn't allow access to your kids, but you may end up having your kids in foster care before you're able to sort things out. It is a straight up bad idea to be uncooperative with CPS as they will automatically assume you are trying to hide something. Bad, bad, bad advice. And my ONLY reason for even bothering to post that is so that if anyone on these boards ends up in the unlikely and unfortunate situation of being falsely accused of something and ends up with CPS at their doorstep, I'd like them to know that the fastest way to resolve everything will be to show CPS you have nothing to hide.


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## purslaine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> You're really dismissive of the responses of those of us who have/do work in CPS considering you're making guesses as to how social workers and judges will respond. It isn't scare mongering to suggest your best bet is to let CPS in. What sort of motive do you think we have in advising that? If you have nothing to hide, you are best to let CPS in. No, a judge won't TPR because you didn't allow access to your kids, but you may end up having your kids in foster care before you're able to sort things out. It is a straight up bad idea to be uncooperative with CPS as they will automatically assume you are trying to hide something. Bad, bad, bad advice. And my ONLY reason for even bothering to post that is so that if anyone on these boards ends up in the unlikely and unfortunate situation of being falsely accused of something and ends up with CPS at their doorstep, I'd like them to know that the fastest way to resolve everything will be to show CPS you have nothing to hide.


Lots here.

I am not dismissive pf the responses of those who work for CPS. I am simply stating CPS policy may not be law. There is a difference.

Beenmum has said twice that if you do not let CPS in a judge will take your kids. I think that is fear mongerring.

It is a sad day when refusing to let strangers (CPS) into your house means you have something to hide. Sad. I cannot control how people think, but I sincerely hope CPS does not assume you have something to hide because you do not give them free access to your kids and home.

I am not advising people on how to act if CPS shows up at your door - it may be that cooperating is the best idea. I do not know and individual circumstances do come into play.

My argument here has been with whether or not CPS an come into your house without a warrant. I have said I did not know and had a hard time finding out. This is very different from saying whether or not as parent should co-operate with CPS.


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## APToddlerMama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Beenmum has said twice that if you do not let CPS in a judge will take your kids. I think that is fear mongerring.
> 
> It is a sad day when refusing to let strangers (CPS) into your house means you have something to hide. Sad.


I don't think that advising that the fastest way to get CPS out of your life is to let them in is fear mongering. It is truly in a parent's best interest to cooperate with CPS.

It would be an even more sad day if hundreds of thousands of kids continued to be abused and neglected because CPS no longer had the right to come into homes and check on the welfare of children about whom serious allegations had been made. There is, unfortunately, no way to verify child safety and well being without some invasion of privacy.


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## Drummer's Wife

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> My argument here has been with whether or not CPS an come into your house without a warrant.


I don't think so, no. In fact, even if they show up with the police, no one can enter your private residence without a court order (unless immediate danger is apparent -- ie a guy with a knife going after someone, and this is visible from the porch). You are absolutely within your rights to refuse entry, to anyone - law enforcement included (who often tag along as reinforcement when there are abuse allegations w/enough evidence to assume it could be dangerous for the field worker).

However, CPS can very well keep your case open and supervisors can go to a judge and get a warrant. Before it gets to that point, they have the legal right to talk to your family, friends, pediatrician, teachers, and even your kids while they are in school. They can very well create a case against you without your full cooperation, and for the most part, yes, they are going to assume you have something to hide when you are restricting their access into your life. Their job is to be sure that children are safe. This may be something they are able to determine from afar, from interviews and statements, documents and phone calls; but the process could very well go so much quicker and smoother, I'm thinking, if they are able to just see the children and determine they are in fact, not being abused or neglected. Of course, even seeing the kids and touring your home, they might not be able to close the case right there on the spot, but they surely can do so quicker if they actually have that opportunity vs. being strung along and having to involve legal action.

There are risks involved with letting CPS come inside your home and life unannounced, sure, but there are huge, huge, huge risks when child welfare is unable to determine whether or not the call they got is in fact a abuse case, where innocent children could be in immediate danger.


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## purslaine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> I don't think that advising that the fastest way to get CPS out of your life is to let them in is fear mongering. It is truly in a parent's best interest to cooperate with CPS.


I did not say that. My statement (below) was in direct response to Beanmum statement (further below).

It is not fear mongering to advise people to let CPS in; it is fear mongering to say not letting them in will result in their removal by the end of the day.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Beenmum has said twice that if you do not let CPS in a judge will take your kids. I think that is fear mongerring.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> And they CAN just come into your home. They do not need an invitation. IF you refuse, you will be put to the fdront of the caseload and you will have a judge signing to remove your kids before the end of the day.


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## limabean

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife*
> 
> However, CPS can very well keep your case open and supervisors can go to a judge and get a warrant. Before it gets to that point, they have the legal right to talk to your family, friends, pediatrician, teachers, and even your kids while they are in school. They can very well create a case against you without your full cooperation, and for the most part, yes, they are going to assume you have something to hide when you are restricting their access into your life. Their job is to be sure that children are safe. This may be something they are able to determine from afar, from interviews and statements, documents and phone calls; but the process could very well go so much quicker and smoother, I'm thinking, if they are able to just see the children and determine they are in fact, not being abused or neglected. Of course, even seeing the kids and touring your home, they might not be able to close the case right there on the spot, but they surely can do so quicker if they actually have that opportunity vs. being strung along and having to involve legal action.
> 
> There are risks involved with letting CPS come inside your home and life unannounced, sure, but there are huge, huge, huge risks when child welfare is unable to determine whether or not the call they got is in fact a abuse case, where innocent children could be in immediate danger.


I don't disagree with you, you're just operating from a starting point that's one step ahead of me. You're operating from the assumption that everyone involved agrees that the people standing on the porch are, in fact, CPS workers, and I'm saying ... how do we know? A badge or other form of ID can easily be faked, especially since most people aren't familiar with what official CPS identification looks like, or really anything about how the investigation process works. It'd be nice if some effort were made to educate the general public on how to respond, especially when the penalty for my ignorance is that I'll suddenly appear suspicious enough to maybe have my children removed.

For me, stranger at door + or - "official" looking identification = no entry until I can confirm that the person is who they say they are (maybe by calling whatever number I can find online for CPS and verifying that they are, in fact, launching an investigation on me, and that the people at the door are employed with them and assigned to my case). It would be foolhardy to just let someone in because they say they're with CPS.

So I guess I'm just starting there, at the beginning, where strangers appear at the door in the middle of an otherwise normal day. It sounds to me like some people are saying that if my immediate reaction to strangers at the door isn't to fling it wide open and invite them in, there's something suspicious about me, and that just sounds crazy to me.


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## APToddlerMama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> I did not say that. My statement (below) was in direct response to Beanmum statement (further below).
> 
> It is not fear mongering to advise people to let CPS in; it is fear mongering to say not letting them in will result in their removal by the end of the day.


Right. I got that. And it is correct that if CPS is concerned enough, they will remove a child by the end of the day, with a police officer. It is not fear mongering.


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## waiting2bemommy

I think there is some fear mongering going on here. I've had CPS called on me twice and a third time where CPS was involved because it was alleged that I had killed my unborn baby. In none of those circumstances did I grant access to my house. I let them see my child, but the laws in the US DO require a warrant for them to enter your home. Of course, they won't close the case until they see inside, so eventually you have to let them in, but it doesn't have to be the day they show up. I never had my kids removed, and the cases were closed. This was in two different states. So even if people who work for CPS are saying they will take your kids, no, they won't, necessarily, because I have experienced it firsthand. And I still maintain that a degree does not make someone an expert on childrearing. Of course there are some good childless caseworkers out there and of course there are situations where it's obvious to an idiot that the parents are not doing their job,, but you can't possibly know what it is to raise a child if you haven't actually done it. I was a live in nanny working over 70 hrs a week and it still wasn't like having my own. No, I don't think someone knows better than me about my child just because she went to college, passed some tests, and scored high on her job interview. Sorry. No. Regardless, CPS can't take youkid away because you won't lte them in your house. I was accused of freaking murder of my own baby, and sexual abuse, and they didn't take my kids. Thank God, because imagine it was bad enough them stripping my kid naked and examining him, and otherwise traumatizing him, when it all turned out to be a lie. I don't blame them for that part; they were just doing their job. But I'm not there to make their job easier. I'm there to protect my kids, and that includes from well meaning people who are ultimately just going to further upset my child by barging in the house and interrogating him unannounced.


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## Drummer's Wife

I'm sorry for all you have been through, waiting2bemommy, but I didn't see where anyone said they would automatically remove your kids if you refuse entry. Just that it makes you appear a bit suspicious - which makes sense on some level, doesn't it? I mean, look at it from another perspective, if you worked for child welfare and had reason to believe a kid was being abused. If you went to make a welfare check and the family was defensive or even hostile, and not cooperative, it just might increase those red flags - rightfully so, or not. The bottom line is the child's well-being, and I'm going to assume that the majority of children who are being neglected/abused are going to have parents who either do not answer the door when CPS arrives or they are not going to make the process easy when the social worker does gain access to their children/home.

I do understand the fear of having your life turned upside down over false allegations - but really, that happens as soon as someone makes that call, whether you cooperate or not. There are definitely some shady case workers (and probably just as many if not more supervisors - who are the ones who make the final decision regarding taking kids into custody or not) who don't do right by the kids or families. Usually, though, their fault lies in leaving abused kids in homes which sadly can result in deadly consequences. This has to happen more than parents being falsely accused and losing their kids to foster care, even temporarily, it just has to. That all said, the system is broken in a lot of ways - this I am aware of. CPS needs some major reform, at least here in the US. Those out in the field who do the hard work, though, are usually not the ones to blame here. They are just doing their job (which is really taxing, and they are often overworked and underpaid).

Limabean - you have good questions, maybe APToddlerMama can answer them? I don't know how you would identify someone as being legit, though I do know that even if you do let them into your home, they aren't likely to remove your children that same visit unless it's super imminent, AND, they have their supervisors go ahead, and that's when it's likely the police will be involved with a court order. The police, for sure, you should be able to identify. But, yeah, I can honestly say I don't know that I would be so trusting just to let some stranger into my home or to come in contact w/my children just b/c they said they have to. So, obviously, I do understand the hesitance, but there has to be a way to work together with this government agency so that they can efficiently keep our children safe.


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## Irishmommy

I would like to point out that the OP specifically asked about Canada. The US is a totally different country, with different procedures and laws, and what they are are irrelevant to Canadian procedures and laws.


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## beenmum

Please understandI said IF there was a serious CONCERN.

I have said that many times. If there is a concern that you children are IN DANGER. And I said many times that its the CAS job to ensure your kids are SAFE.

Not that your friends called b/c you are cosleeping at 4. I said *in danger*.

*"If they have probable cause to think that your child is in danger b/c of a reasonable suspicion given to them by a thrid party, they have the legal right to search and seize."*

*If it is a serious allegation, they return later with a warrent to remove your kids b/c they were unable to complete their investigation that your children were safe and their home was secure of any dangers. (Not clean, but safe). *

I can post the rest of my comments also since you seem to have missed them. I wont be accused of fearmongering b/c you have taken 1 post out of context.

*"These people dont care about that. They have been called to ensure your kids are safe. Why not allow them to see that they are safe and you will cooperate any way you can to have the case closed.*

*Thank you LROM. I did work with CAS and did my foster parent training with them. I am well versed in how this works. I dont knw anyone who has said "No you can not see my kids whom you are sworn to protect b/c I should hav rights that keep my kids safety from being investiagted*

*　*

*Lack of access means the kids safety can not be verified*

*　*

*These people are comming b/c someone said your kids are being maltreated or abused.*

*If they have probable cause to think that your child is in danger b/c of a reasonable suspicion given to them by a thrid party, they have the legal right to search and seize.*

*　*

*Thats why CPS is there. The workers dont know you from Eve. If someone says that your abusing your kids, then they have to ensure your not. Its as simple as that."*

Please go back are reread the above from my posts.

B/c I mentioned that if there was a call to investigate a serious concern and you do not comply and they were gievn a reasonable suspicsion that your kids are in danger, then they have the right to remove your children until they see that they are SAFE. Whihc is what I have said repeatedly.

You are fearmongering by not reading my posts thoroughly and implying something I never said. I wouldlike you to edit your posts that imply I said anything but what I bolded. You failed to read all my posts and then jumped on one to take out of context. That is unfair.

why in the world would I sit here and give bad advice?

Nevermind. I always end up sorry when I go against my best judgement and reply to these thread with my professional expereince.


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## green betty

Three good reasons I would not let CAS into the house if they showed up on my front doorstep:

1. When I worked in law, the senior partners at my firm advised us to never, ever, voluntarily give up your rights. You can/should be perfectly pleasant in your refusal, but from a legal standpoint it is simply foolish to voluntarily give up your rights when a governmental authority asks to search your home or car or pressures you to voluntarily acede your rights in any other way.

2. It's never a good idea to let a stranger who shows up at your door unannounced into your home and around your children without witnesses and verification that they are who they say they are. Why assume honesty and good intentions of a complete stranger when your child's well-being is at stake? My feelings on this point are influenced by knowing a woman who was raped by a man pretending to be a police officer, but logic (and the newspaper) tell me that this isn't an uncommon ploy--the pretense of authority is an excellent tool for predators.

3. We work at home, school at home, and church at home. Our home is sacred, private space for our family. It is only open to people who we want there. Having someone force their way into our home against my will would feel like emotional rape. (And "inviting" in a social worker because I thought it was the lesser of two evils/a calculated risk to avoid the possibility of my child being taken away would be akin to false consent date rape.) The fact that the social worker may have the best of intentions would not make this any less of a violation. I won't let that happen if I can possibly avoid it.


----------



## purslaine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> Thank you LROM. I did work with CAS and did my foster parent training with them. I am well versed in how this works. I dont knw anyone who has said "No you can not see my kids whom you are sworn to protect b/c I should hav rights that keep my kids safety from being investiagted.
> 
> Shoudlnt happen. Ever.
> 
> And they CAN just come into your home. They do not need an invitation. IF you refuse, you will be put to the fdront of the caseload and you will have a judge signing to remove your kids before the end of the day.
> 
> seriously, telling the CAS that your home is too untidy to let them in, is foolhearty. You will be red flagged. They HAVE to investigate.


This is an entire post. I did not take anything out of context, or re-arrange words.

You did not say in this post that if the concern were serious, etc, etc, kids would be removed. You said they would be removed by the end of the day if you refuse to let CPS come into your house.

I am not going to edit unless asked to do so by a mod.

To be fair, in other posts you have said things about serious concern...so I am confused where you stand. It could be the above post was written in haste (goodness knows I have done it) and you mean with serious concern - or it could be you mean exactly what you said above.

I would also like a discussion on what constitutes serious concern to CPS or what should constitute serious concern. Maybe that is another thread though. I think CPS should be allowed in if the allegation is something that is putting your childs immediate life in danger - not for something like hoarding or bad hygiene, though. I question whether a single report from a third party (particularly if it is not grave) should carry so much weight that it should over-ride my right to privacy. I do take rights to privacy fairly seriously. I also think it is very unlikely a judge would remove children based on a single complaint of a non serious nature because I asked for an appointment or to see a warrant. I think it mild and moderate matters - CPS would make an appointment or get a warrant. In serious matters, CPS usually shows up with the cops, and as said above I think in very serious matters CPS and the cops can and should just go in. I think the likelihood of a judge removing my kids because I asked for a warrant or an appointment is just as likely as the possibility of letting a CPS agent in only for them do their best to make a case against you. I think both scenarios are unlikely - but both can happen. Bad judges exist, as do bad (or overzealous or burnt out) CPS workers. Pick your poison.

In any event, I am not personally attacking you. I am sure your heart is really, really good and you are giving out the best advice you have to give based on your experience. I am simply trying to sort out if you have to let CPS in (which is very different from whether you should or not). In some ways I think we are discussing different things.


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## MittensKittens

What I am interested in is how such a "chat" with kids would work. Do CPS workers specifically asked whether they are abused (a very leading question!) or do they just talk about every-day stuff, what the kids are into, what they like to eat, and so on?


----------



## MittensKittens

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *limabean*
> 
> For me, stranger at door + or - "official" looking identification = no entry until I can confirm that the person is who they say they are (maybe by calling whatever number I can find online for CPS and verifying that they are, in fact, launching an investigation on me, and that the people at the door are employed with them and assigned to my case). It would be foolhardy to just let someone in because they say they're with CPS.
> 
> So I guess I'm just starting there, at the beginning, where strangers appear at the door in the middle of an otherwise normal day. It sounds to me like some people are saying that if my immediate reaction to strangers at the door isn't to fling it wide open and invite them in, there's something suspicious about me, and that just sounds crazy to me.


Good points, it would not have occurred to me someone might pretend to be a CPS worker. And of course, calling a number they provide themselves would not do much good if that were the case.


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## beenmum

Even in the post I said "safety".

The law is this:

If they have *probable cause to think that your child is in danger b/c of a reasonable suspicion* given to them by a thrid party, they have the legal right to search and seize.

You wont know what the call was about. They will simply tell you that there has been a call regarding your childs safety or wellbeing. Can we please discuss this issue with you. We will need to speak to the children also".

If its non serious, asking them to return later with a warrent is going to red flag you. Its not going ot help you in anyway. B/c now the CAS worker has to 1. GO to the school to speak to your kids 2. Get a police officer to get entrance or 3. Get a warrent to remove your kids.

Note that that CAS worker wont leave to do the follwing. That CAS worker will remain until one of the 3 above happens. This is o you dont flee b/c NOW you have refused acces to your kids, they have no clue if your kids are safe...or if you are mentally unwell and are planning on fleeing with them or killing them.

So, if they are comming to your home, I would let them in, find out what the concern is and deal with it. They dont care if your house is messy. I can not STRESS that enough. Unless its unsafe, your golden.

CAS workers dont want to see a unlived house when there are 2 toddlers there. They want to see that your kids have toys and have your attention rather then being shoved in a room all day long while you clean.

If you refuse and your kids arent there*...depending on the nature of the call* they will go to the school/daycare to speak to them.

If your kids are at home and you refuse them access and the nature of the call is a physical safety concern...if they can not see your children they can not confirm that your kids are unharmed. At that point they can go infront of a judge and ask for a warrent to remove your children until their safety is confirmed.

In my first year working with families at risk, 2 infants were murdered.

These workers have a helluva lot more important things to worry about then a messy house or a breastfeeding toddler. At one point or another they have seen kids die.

Remember that. They arent rushing in to take your kids. They want to know your kid isnt going to be another Rachel.


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## chiefmir

I look at it this way: there are many, many good parents out there...and there are going to be some CPS/CAS calls that are unfounded (either intentionally or due to honest error on someone's part). Of those good and decent parents who are faced with a CPS/CAS visit, some will allow the worker to gain immediate access to their home and children and some won't... each set has their own reasons and own concerns. BUT, then there are the parents who ARE actually sexually or physically abusing their children, or are seriously neglectful, or have an incredibly dangerous home... I'm willing to bet that a whole bunch of them will refuse the worker access to the home and/or children. PLUS, there are the great parents out there who HAVE NO IDEA that their child could be being hurt or sexually abused by someone other than them- maybe in their own family- and so refuse the worker access/entry because they "know" that there is no abuse going on. A CPS/CAS worker doesn't have some sort of magic crystal ball that allows them to know whether they are being denied access to a child because the child is 1) honestly safe; 2) being hurt by a family who now knows that they are under the microscope and may flee/kill/retaliate against the child for "telling" or 3) presumed safe because the parent who refused access is not doing anything wrong...but is actually being hurt and has now missed their chance to get help. They need to ensure safety in case one of the last 2 things are happening.

I work in a school, and many CPS reports are made per year. Some, we have to report as mandated reporters although we sort of know that very little, if anything, will result. Others have been immediately horrifying... for example, we have had 2 different children removed from the home- FROM SCHOOL THE DAY WE CALLED becuase they reported sexual or severe physical abuse and CPS decided that they had to speak to the child before the end of the school day because it might not be safe to send them home. The most disturbing, acutallly, were the couple of calls I remember that we made somewhat reluctantly (not that we didn't know the call should be made, but that the child was insistent to us that there wasn't a big problem, we had "known" and liked the parents for years, etc.) and then when investigated, serious abuse/neglect was uncovered.


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## APToddlerMama

I'm tiring of this thread a bit. Maybe because it seems like once/month a CPS thread gets started with lots of misinformation, so this will be my last post. Limabean--Yes, CPS does and will show you identification. I think that it is perfectly fine and acceptable to say that you are going to call the office and verify their identity prior to allowing them in. Then go inside, google their number, and call. I guess there are occassionally people who may impersonate police officers and CPS social workers so it would be fine to do that.

Waiting2bemommy--I am sorry you have had to deal with CPS so much. I cannot imagine how stressful that must have been. I do want to point out though that it isn't CPS's fault that you have individuals in your life who are choosing to make false allegations about you. This makes the lives of those trying to protect children from legitimate abuse and neglect all the more challenging as well. The fact that you weren't forced into letting them into your house and that your children were not removed shows that the system is working. Those workers had the judgement to know that yours was not a situation in which your children were in serious and immediate danger that required them to force their way in and remove your children. A lot of social work comes down to judgement. Obviously they made the right call. They may not always, which is why I still advise allowing them in. Truly, if you are not abusing or neglecting your children, CPS is on *your* team.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife*
> 
> Limabean - you have good questions, maybe APToddlerMama can answer them?


----------



## joensally

In Canada, civil liberties allow for police to enter your home if they have reasonable suspicion that someone in the home is in imminent danger and they need to check their status. Child welfare legislation varies by province, so in some places social workers can enter under similar circumstances as police under their legislation, whereas in other provinces the social worker would have to bring the police to gain entry. They can also apply for a warrant.

Important to remember in Canada, though, is that all provincial governments (who run child welfare) are under major budget constraints. They want fewer kids in care to save money. And the literature is clear - except in the most severe cases, kids are better off remaining within their families with necessary supports to help the family meet the needs of their children.

If social workers and/or police came knocking, I would let them in. If that was out of my comfort zone, I would present my children at the door and ask to set up an appointment. If they required entry, I would allow it but would be phoning a friend/family/neighbour to attend as a witness.


----------



## Mrs. Bratton

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> I think there is some fear mongering going on here. I've had CPS called on me twice and a third time where CPS was involved because it was alleged that I had killed my unborn baby. In none of those circumstances did I grant access to my house. I let them see my child, but the laws in the US DO require a warrant for them to enter your home. Of course, they won't close the case until they see inside, so eventually you have to let them in, but it doesn't have to be the day they show up. I never had my kids removed, and the cases were closed. This was in two different states. So even if people who work for CPS are saying they will take your kids, no, they won't, necessarily, because I have experienced it firsthand. And I still maintain that a degree does not make someone an expert on childrearing. Of course there are some good childless caseworkers out there and of course there are situations where it's obvious to an idiot that the parents are not doing their job,, but you can't possibly know what it is to raise a child if you haven't actually done it. I was a live in nanny working over 70 hrs a week and it still wasn't like having my own. No, I don't think someone knows better than me about my child just because she went to college, passed some tests, and scored high on her job interview. Sorry. No. Regardless, CPS can't take youkid away because you won't lte them in your house. I was accused of freaking murder of my own baby, and sexual abuse, and they didn't take my kids. Thank God, because imagine it was bad enough them stripping my kid naked and examining him, and otherwise traumatizing him, when it all turned out to be a lie. I don't blame them for that part; they were just doing their job. But I'm not there to make their job easier. I'm there to protect my kids, and that includes from well meaning people who are ultimately just going to further upset my child by barging in the house and interrogating him unannounced.


No one said they were experts on child-raising or child-rearing. It isn't their job to guide you or help you raise your children. It is their job to ensure that your children are safe, adequately cared for, and not neglected. They are experts in that. They are absolutely experts in the law regarding child safety. That's really all they need to know to do their job. They don't need to know a single thing about raising kids. All they need to know is what is and isn't legal, and whether you are abusing or neglecting your children and putting them in harm's way.


----------



## Storm Bride

Never mind. I clicked on this thread by accident, and I know better to discuss this topic...


----------



## Mrs. Bratton

Did you say that just to make us feel stupid for not "knowing better"? lol....nice.


----------



## waiting2bemommy

One other thing, although I maintain that I personally wouldn't let them in immediately (but that is based on my personal eperiences) I have never had a problem getting a CPS worker to show me ID. They didn't *want* to give me last names, but that is understandable because they might fear retaliation by a ticked off parent. I personally would rather retaliate against the person who made the call, you know, don't shoot the messenger......but in a redally bad situation it's easy to get upset with the workers who are just doing their jobs. Anyway, it's easy to call social services and verify their identity. So while it is unsettling to have a stranger appear at your door with a list of demands, it's not difficult to make sure they are who they say they are.

Just in case I sound all anti-CPS. I'm not. I've actually called twice before, once on a family and once on a daycare center. Neither was investigated, as far as I know.

Mrs. Bratton, I think we are making the same point. *Some* not all---but some---CPS workers think they do know better than the parents, and they use their position of authority to try and force parents to do things a certain way. The cosleeping issue is an excellent example of a choice that is not affected by law, but which social workers have been known to take issue with. I don't argue that they know the laws. The problem is that laws pertaining to how we treat our children are often open to individual interpretation. is spanking abuse? some say yes, some say no. the laws offer guidelines, but there are plenty of abusive parents who don't leave marks, and plenty of spanking families who are otherwise loving and caring. And I guess I would argue that a seasoned parent is more likely to make the right judgment call on those gray areas.


----------



## SpiderMum

Nobody, either cops or from CPS, can enter your home lawfully without a warrant OR unless there is probable cause. So if they come to the door and see blood smeared on the walls....sure, they can come in....but unless there is a real valid REASON they just can't waltz into your home. That violates your rights.


----------



## ssh

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpiderMum*
> 
> Nobody, either cops or from CPS, can enter your home lawfully without a warrant OR unless there is probable cause. So if they come to the door and see blood smeared on the walls....sure, they can come in....but unless there is a real valid REASON they just can't waltz into your home. That violates your rights.


The laws may be different in Canada where the OP is.


----------



## purslaine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ssh*
> 
> The laws may be different in Canada where the OP is.


Yes.

I looked up Ontario's, and they are in a gray zone (typical for Ontario). The OP needs to look up her province if she is interested.


----------



## LROM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chiefmir*
> 
> I look at it this way: there are many, many good parents out there...and there are going to be some CPS/CAS calls that are unfounded (either intentionally or due to honest error on someone's part). Of those good and decent parents who are faced with a CPS/CAS visit, some will allow the worker to gain immediate access to their home and children and some won't... each set has their own reasons and own concerns. BUT, then there are the parents who ARE actually sexually or physically abusing their children, or are seriously neglectful, or have an incredibly dangerous home... I'm willing to bet that a whole bunch of them will refuse the worker access to the home and/or children. PLUS, there are the great parents out there who HAVE NO IDEA that their child could be being hurt or sexually abused by someone other than them- maybe in their own family- and so refuse the worker access/entry because they "know" that there is no abuse going on. *A CPS/CAS worker doesn't have some sort of magic crystal ball that allows them to know whether they are being denied access to a child because the child is 1) honestly safe; 2) being hurt by a family who now knows that they are under the microscope and may flee/kill/retaliate against the child for "telling" or 3) presumed safe because the parent who refused access is not doing anything wrong...but is actually being hurt and has now missed their chance to get help. They need to ensure safety in case one of the last 2 things are happening.*
> 
> I work in a school, and many CPS reports are made per year. Some, we have to report as mandated reporters although we sort of know that very little, if anything, will result. Others have been immediately horrifying... for example, we have had 2 different children removed from the home- FROM SCHOOL THE DAY WE CALLED becuase they reported sexual or severe physical abuse and CPS decided that they had to speak to the child before the end of the school day because it might not be safe to send them home. The most disturbing, acutallly, were the couple of calls I remember that we made somewhat reluctantly (not that we didn't know the call should be made, but that the child was insistent to us that there wasn't a big problem, we had "known" and liked the parents for years, etc.) and then when investigated, serious abuse/neglect was uncovered.


The bolded part is exactly what several in this conversation seem to be missing over and over. Everyone is free to feel like a CPS worker showing up unannounced on their doorstep is an intrusion, an invasion of their privacy. It's natural to feel that way, I get it. But the idea that somehow people predictably feeling that way erases or minimizes the fact that CPS is an agency charged with protecting children, and the only way to protect children is to look into allegations that children are being harmed and assess whether the kids are safe or not by talking to the kids, the parents, sometimes others... that's the only way to be able to rule out abuse/neglect or raise the alarm that things don't look good.

If the adults feel so violated by CPS doing their job, how does everyone think the kids who are actually abused feel? Yet adults can research laws, get lawyers, or advocate for their own rights themselves. Children... almost never have those choices or options or even the ability to speak out about what's happening to them. It is for this last reason that even though it is understandable that most will feel upset and resistant if CPS shows up at their door, the fact that kids can't protect themselves and *because someone has alleged something serious enough to respond to*, the need to make sure kids are safe is something that cannot be done without visiting a home and speaking to parents and the kids.


----------



## LROM

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Waiting2bemommy--I am sorry you have had to deal with CPS so much. I cannot imagine how stressful that must have been. *I do want to point out though that it isn't CPS's fault that you have individuals in your life who are choosing to make false allegations about you.* This makes the lives of those trying to protect children from legitimate abuse and neglect all the more challenging as well.
> 
> *The fact that you weren't forced into letting them into your house and that your children were not removed shows that the system is working. Those workers had the judgement to know that yours was not a situation in which your children were in serious and immediate danger that required them to force their way in and remove your children. * A lot of social work comes down to judgement. Obviously they made the right call. They may not always, which is why I still advise allowing them in. Truly, if you are not abusing or neglecting your children, CPS is on *your* team.


All excellent points - especially the bolded.


----------



## Katie T

I think our states system stinks. Here is why I say that. I am a mandatory reporter. A friend of mine sent me a e-mail telling me of how she got angry with her 13month old and flung her (her words.) I called DHS and reported it and read the message word for word from what my friend had typed. You know what they told me. That is not enough to do anything about because the child was not brought in for injuries because of the abuse. I kid you not. That is what is wrong and why so many kids are dying at the hands of their parents!


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## purslaine

When I had my son ( 15 years ago now) 1 baby died and one was permanently injured (blindness) within several months of each other in a reasonably small province. Both were in foster care, both died from shaken baby syndrome.

Now I do not know whether stats show that at-risk kids are better off at home or in foster care, but I can tell you I was horrified by the shaken babies.

I do not assume kids are better off in CPS. That may be why I am less inclined to give them full access to my house and kids. They are strangers to me, they do not have the greatest track record, why should I trust them?

Now it could very well be that the easiest way to get rid of CPS is to let them in and do what they want but I do not blame any mother who sends them away (shows them the kids first) and gets her ducks in a row before having a meeting.


----------



## purslaine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Katie T*
> 
> I think our states system stinks. Here is why I say that. I am a mandatory reporter. A friend of mine sent me a e-mail telling me of how she got angry with her 13month old and flung her (her words.) I called DHS and reported it and read the message word for word from what my friend had typed. You know what they told me. That is not enough to do anything about because the child was not brought in for injuries because of the abuse. I kid you not. That is what is wrong and why so many kids are dying at the hands of their parents!


I hear you!

I had a neighbour who numerous people reported on (me included). It turned out (her daughter eventually saw the file) that 12 people had called on her. 12! She has serious untreated mental health issues, but the kids were fed and clothed so not much was done. It was not until her mother did something so erratic that police were called and she resisted arrest that the kids were taken. I am also mad that it seems like everybody reported this women, she got no help for her issues, and eventually her kids were taken. What happened to helping this woman? It seems like with CPS it was ignore the situation or take the kids. Maybe they tried to help, I certainly do not know everything, but as far as I can tell (and the neighbour was an open book) they did not arrange for any useful help.

Totally OT, but I am glad to get it out there.

edited to add: the children do seem to be in a good place right now.







I do not like CPS but sometimes it does work out well.


----------



## Storm Bride

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Katie T*
> 
> I think our states system stinks. Here is why I say that. I am a mandatory reporter. A friend of mine sent me a e-mail telling me of how she got angry with her 13month old and flung her (her words.) I called DHS and reported it and read the message word for word from what my friend had typed. You know what they told me. That is not enough to do anything about because the child was not brought in for injuries because of the abuse. I kid you not. That is what is wrong and why so many kids are dying at the hands of their parents!


umm...if they replied to every single case like that, they'd be even more short-handed than they already are. I once lost my cool with ds1 and "flung him", too. He was about 15 months old, and I scared the crap out of myself by losing control like that. But...I "flung him" onto the couch, from about a foot away, and he dropped squarely onto a cushion. He was scared, and I was scared and it was awful. But, even though I used the words "threw him" (not flung, but it comes across about the same, imo) when I told my ex about it, he wasn't hurt at all, and it never happened again.

And, quite honestly, most of the kids I've known or known about, who were badly neglected and abused and/or were ultimately seriously injuired and/or killed by their parents were known to CPS and had been investigated or were being investigated at the time. As much as I can't stand CPS, and I think they go way beyond their mandate (ie. butting in and trying to make people parent the way they think they should, instead of sticking to out and out abuse/neglect), I also recognize that it's all a judgment call and mistakes are going to be made, even by experts, even with the best of intent. They don't have a crystal ball to know which person "flung" their child a foot onto a couch in a one off loss of control, and which person "flung" their child across the room. They have to find ways to assess those situations...and the presence/absence of injuries isn't really a terrible yardstick, yk?

I'll also add that I use my friends and family as a sort of self-check. I make sure I tell someone (dh, mom, homelearning friends, bff...whomever) when I'm more on the edge than usual, or have crossed one of my own lines. It's a way to keep myself accountable. IME, most things that people tell their friends about this stuff may fall into "not wonderful parenting", but they rarely fall into out and out abuse. Those conversations and emails aren't a sign that I need CPS - they're a sign that I'm keeping tabs on myself.


----------



## Storm Bride

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> I hear you!
> 
> I had a neighbour who numerous people reported on (me included). It turned out (her daughter eventually saw the file) that 12 people had called on her. 12! She has serious untreated mental health issues, but the kids were fed and clothed so not much was done. It was not until her mother did something so erratic that police were called and she resisted arrest that the kids were taken. I am also mad that it seems like everybody reported this women, she got no help for her issues, and eventually her kids were taken. What happened to helping this woman? It seems like with CPS it was ignore the situation or take the kids. Maybe they tried to help, I certainly do not know everything, but as far as I can tell (and the neighbour was an open book) they did not arrange for any useful help.
> 
> Totally OT, but I am glad to get it out there.


"Useful help" is a tricky one. I know someone who has had CPS involved twice. The first time, they made the situation worse. The second time, they didn't accomplish anything at alll, except to completely terrify the kids. They offered lots of help, of the kind that people are always talking about (counseling for the mom, parenting techniques, etc.). It didn't do anything. Unfortunately, she falls pretty solidly into the "bad parenting" category, and isn't truly neglectful or abusive (borderline medical neglect a few times, I think). Her kids would be devastated to be taken from her, and any "help" offered accomplishes nothing. There are situations where CPS simply can't do very much.

It's quite possible that CPS did try to help your neighbour. Trying to help and actually helping aren't the same thing.


----------



## purslaine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> "Useful help" is a tricky one. I know someone who has had CPS involved twice. The first time, they made the situation worse. The second time, they didn't accomplish anything at alll, except to completely terrify the kids. They offered lots of help, of the kind that people are always talking about (counseling for the mom, parenting techniques, etc.). It didn't do anything. Unfortunately, she falls pretty solidly into the "bad parenting" category, and isn't truly neglectful or abusive (borderline medical neglect a few times, I think). Her kids would be devastated to be taken from her, and any "help" offered accomplishes nothing. There are situations where CPS simply can't do very much.
> 
> It's quite possible that CPS did try to help your neighbour. Trying to help and actually helping aren't the same thing.


I think they lectured her - lectured her on keeping the food in the house, the kids in school, etc. They were frustrated, as everyone was (and probably still is) by her stonewalling and checking out. She would just ignore them.

The kind of help she needed was mental help - and she needed someone to get her there and insist she go there.

It is tricky - maybe it is beyond their scope? - but I genuinely believe it is what she needed. Without mental help she was unable to meet their requests - sadly they cannot make someone take help. I do not know if they offered or insisted - she never talked about that.

It actually is a fairly sad situation because she is not an evil woman - she really just did need help.

You might not be able to help someone who refuses it, though. Some of us were hopefull that CPS may be able to get through to her where others were not - it did not pan out that way, though.


----------



## Magali

I was looking forward to a discussion pertaining to Canadian laws. Thanks to all the Canadian info because often here on MDC there are CPS threads, but I don't see CAS.


----------



## LROM

Since this is a thread on what CPS looks for, I gotta say that in both the examples posted (one by Katie T, one by kathymuggle), it sounds like CPS actually did what they're supposed to do.

There is a key thing you need to understand that apply to those reports: CPS is only supposed to get involved where harm is being done to a child through abuse or neglect. As crazy as it seems, saying only that a parent "flung her baby" without more info - where did she fling him/her? On the floor? The couch? Bed? Into the wall? Those are all very different scenarios. As much as it sucks that any parent is flinging their child at all, the truth is flinging a baby onto the bed may scare the child (as Storm Bride pointed out), but it usually doesn't *by itself* rise to the level of abuse or neglect. Flinging onto the floor or into a wall - that's another story. Also Katie T, did you have any info re: what condition the child was in after it happened? A baby who bleeds or has bruises or vomits or something after being flung, that is important to know. Without knowing if the baby was "ok" or not after the flinging (we all know it has some impact, but onto the bed isn't the level that CPS gets involved in unless the child shows signs of "harm"), CPS probably can't screen it in. It's not true that the child has to be "brought in with injuries" to do anything about it, but without more info it usuallly couldn't be investigated.

Re: the mom who had had 12 reports, again, unless the reporter can say "This is what mom is doing and this is how it's hurting her kids", even with 12 reports it's hard for CPS to legally respond. As you said kathymuggle, it took mom doing something really erratic for police to come and then when she resisted arrest, that triggered everything. In a way, as sucky as it is to have to live with a mentally ill mom, unless someone can explain how her mental issues are hurting her kids in a tangible way, it's very hard for CPS to intervene. It comes up a lot with alcohol and pot - ok, it would be an ideal world if no one used either while parenting... but one is legal and the other is very very common even if illegal. CPS has increasingly started examining not just what is the parent doing that seems like a bad idea, but what is the impact - if any - on the kids? Some parents can drink and still parent fantastically... others alcohol makes them neglectful or abusive and their kids' needs are not met. CPS should only get involved in the 2nd situation, even though both parents are using the same substance (alcohol). So if there werent details about how the mom's mental illness was having a negative impact on her kids, what could CPS do? Even if there was evidence mom was wacky, if the kids were fed, clothed, doing ok in school and seemed socially and emotionally ok, should CPS intervene further than assessing the situation (which is the only way to find out the kids are fed, clothed and emotionally ok)?


----------



## Storm Bride

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LROM*
> 
> Re: the mom who had had 12 reports, again, unless the reporter can say "This is what mom is doing and this is how it's hurting her kids", even with 12 reports it's hard for CPS to legally respond. As you said kathymuggle, it took mom doing something really erratic for police to come and then when she resisted arrest, that triggered everything. In a way, as sucky as it is to have to live with a mentally ill mom, unless someone can explain how her mental issues are hurting her kids in a tangible way, it's very hard for CPS to intervene. It comes up a lot with alcohol and pot - ok, it would be an ideal world if no one used either while parenting... but one is legal and the other is very very common even if illegal. CPS has increasingly started examining not just what is the parent doing that seems like a bad idea, but what is the impact - if any - on the kids? Some parents can drink and still parent fantastically... others alcohol makes them neglectful or abusive and their kids' needs are not met. CPS should only get involved in the 2nd situation, even though both parents are using the same substance (alcohol). So if there werent details about how the mom's mental illness was having a negative impact on her kids, what could CPS do? Even if there was evidence mom was wacky, if the kids were fed, clothed, doing ok in school and seemed socially and emotionally ok, should CPS intervene further than assessing the situation (which is the only way to find out the kids are fed, clothed and emotionally ok)?


These ones are so complicated. You and I have talked before, LROM, so you know I'm not the biggest fan of CPS, in many ways. This kind of scenario is part of the reason why - but I also realize that it must be incredibly frustrating to deal with, and very hard to know the best way to deal with it. I'm familiar with several cases of mental illness making for less than wonderful parenting, but overall situations that really aren't abusive, yk? If CPS gets a call on those people, then the "what should we do?" question is really complicated, and probably also very frustrating.

Magali: It's always a good idea to take a good look at the threads. I find that many of them say "CPS", but if you look inside, you'll find Canadian specific content. I just use "CPS" myself. Most posters here know what I'm talking about, and I can never remember what it's called here, anyway. I'm pretty sure the name has changed at least twice since my teens...the great Canadian (or at least British Columbian) game of "change the name, but leave the substance alone" gets played pretty hard here.


----------



## purslaine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Magali*
> 
> I was looking forward to a discussion pertaining to Canadian laws. Thanks to all the Canadian info because often here on MDC there are CPS threads, but I don't see CAS.


I am Canadian (like the beer commercial, lol). I often call CAS "CPS" so Americans will understand what I am talking about. I figure most Canadians on this board know what CPS is, but I am not sure most Americans know what CAS is.

Interestingly, there are even regional differences in the CAS thing. It is not called CAS in Quebec, but something like child youth protective services (not quite sure)


----------



## Magali

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> I am Canadian (like the beer commercial, lol). I often call CAS "CPS" so Americans will understand what I am talking about. I figure most Canadians on this board know what CPS is, but I am not sure most Americans know what CAS is.


Right, and honestly I never even knew what to call it here in Canada until this thread. But what I was getting at is that while discussions about US CPS are interesting and raise topics on a general level, the law bits are irrelevant to me, just like laws in Australia or the UK would be.


----------



## Storm Bride

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Interestingly, there are even regional differences in the CAS thing. It is not called CAS in Quebec, but something like child youth protective services (not quite sure)


I just googled it out of curiousity when I read this. It looks as though what we have here is actually called Child Protection Services, so it really is CPS! They operate under the umbrella of the Ministry of Children and Family Development. Most people I've known who have had any involvement with them simply say "The Ministry".


----------



## cavcoed

CPS does, in fact, need a warrant to enter your home. Even if there are police with them, they must have a valid warrant to enter your house. -Walsh vs. Erie County Department of Job and Family Services, Case No.3:01CV7588. This basically states that the Fourth Amendment aplies to social workers. There is NO social worker exception to the strictures of the Fourth Amendment. Hope this clears things up a little.


----------



## Super~Single~Mama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cavcoed*
> 
> CPS does, in fact, need a warrant to enter your home. Even if there are police with them, they must have a valid warrant to enter your house. -Walsh vs. Erie County Department of Job and Family Services, Case No.3:01CV7588. This basically states that the Fourth Amendment aplies to social workers. There is NO social worker exception to the strictures of the Fourth Amendment. Hope this clears things up a little.


The OP is in Canada, and Canadians do not have the same rights that U.S. citizens do, as they do not have the same Constitution that we do.


----------



## KimberlyD0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> The OP is in Canada, and Canadians do not have the same rights that U.S. citizens do, as they do not have the same Constitution that we do.


You do know we have the charter of rights, right?? A lot of our basic rights are pretty much the same as the US, we even have a few extra (like the right to basic health care) Police do still need a warrant or reasonable suspicion to enter a home. CAS is not run through the police though.

I have had CAS called on me. My daughter has an extremely rare congenital defect that can make it appear as if her right leg is covered in bruises. We've had no less 8 calls about the same leg. Apparently people though we were beating her (but only the one leg you see







) They no longer come when they get a call because its been marked on the file.

CAS does everything they can to try keeping families together, and reuniting those who have been separated. They don't go in with the intention of taking kids away from their family.

Sure you can refuse them entry, that is your right, but its counter productive to you. Better to let them in and show you have nothing to hide. By refusing them entry it set off alarm bells for them.


----------



## Storm Bride

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KimberlyD0*
> 
> You do know we have the charter of rights, right?? A lot of our basic rights are pretty much the same as the US, we even have a few extra (like the right to basic health care) Police do still need a warrant or reasonable suspicion to enter a home. CAS is not run through the police though.
> 
> She didn't say we don't have any rights. She said we don't have the same rights. That's the simple truth.


----------



## KimberlyD0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*


The rights we have through our charter of rights is the same as those covered by your constitution. Thats all I was meaning. I don't believe Warrents are related to either.


----------



## purslaine

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KimberlyD0*
> 
> The rights we have through our charter of rights is the same as those covered by your constitution. Thats all I was meaning. I don't believe Warrents are related to either.


The countries are similar in many ways - but not the same. I would caution anyone to look up Canadian laws and not assume American ones apply - as they might not.

As stated earlier in this thread, different provinces may operate in different ways, look up yours.

I see you are In Ontario. A brief google search seemed to indicate CAs and police could enter your home without a warrant if they felt there was "just cause." Here is a link to police info, look at pages 10-12

http://www.cleo.on.ca/english/pub/onpub/PDF/criminal/polpower.pdf


----------



## Ashes04

I'm in Indiana and I had a CPS worker show up at my door the other day because my brothers ex-girlfriend called and reported me saying all kinds of stuff. Of coarse it wasn't true but it still freaked me out having someone like that standing at my door. I let her right in and took her through to show her the kids room, and the kitchen and all because I didn't want her to think I had something to hide. I just felt like it would be better to just let her in and do her investigation so they'll get out of my life as soon as possible. Even though I didn't really wanna let her in my house was a mess. We had been gone out of town all weekend and hadn't got to clean up or anything but I figured she seen much much worse than my house. I just had toys everywhere. Now I have to wait 30days for them to finish their investigation and its nerve racking. Even though I know I have nothing to hide and I'm a wonderful mother you still just never know what could come of this!


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## Mummoth

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ashes04*
> 
> I'm in Indiana and I had a CPS worker show up at my door the other day because my brothers ex-girlfriend called and reported me saying all kinds of stuff. Of coarse it wasn't true but it still freaked me out having someone like that standing at my door. I let her right in and took her through to show her the kids room, and the kitchen and all because I didn't want her to think I had something to hide. I just felt like it would be better to just let her in and do her investigation so they'll get out of my life as soon as possible. Even though I didn't really wanna let her in my house was a mess. We had been gone out of town all weekend and hadn't got to clean up or anything but I figured she seen much much worse than my house. I just had toys everywhere. Now I have to wait 30days for them to finish their investigation and its nerve racking. Even though I know I have nothing to hide and I'm a wonderful mother you still just never know what could come of this!


I think most of them can probably tell the difference between a vacation or someone is sick mess and a we-never-clean mess... at least the difference is apparent to me. Plus, I think who the call comes form makes a difference... they came and had a look around after I called the police on my ex, but they didn't even call when his parents reported on me (they bought the house back for ex, and that was the first time they saw holes in the wall, etc... of course their precious boy couldn't have done that) The only reason I knew about that call was because I called myself looking for support for DS, who was having behaviour issues.


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## yellow73

I haven't read all the posts, so bear with me with this has already been covered.

I have worked for CPS in the US, in the state of Georgia.

Every state and county has slightly different ways of doing things....

But CPS workers do NOT have the right to enter a home unless they come with a police or sheriff who has cause to enter, or they have a signed order from a judge.

This will only happen in very serious circumstances.

In the county I worked in, about 70% of calls with allegations were ever investigated (rest did not have real reason to respond to call), most of initial visits were quickly closed for lack of evidence.

Even if CPS brings a case to court, a judge or law enforcement are the ones who bring criminal charges.

*It is the goal of CPS first to protect children, and second, to keep families together. *

I know that as CPS workers, we are given a bad rap, and many see us as the enemy. In my experience, the county I worked in had a legal system that greatly favored the rights of parents over children. This sometimes resulted in children staying in homes and being given back to unfit parents that later resulted in their coming to harm.

From my experience, it is much harder to prove to a judge that a child is in danger and keep them safe, than it is for parents to get a good lawyer and get their children back.

*If you are a good parent, and I believe most are, you have nothing to fear.*

For those of us in normal families, I think it's hard to imagine sometimes what things look like when kids are being abused and neglected, and we'd prefer to think that it doesn't happen. But it does, and those kids do need a system to protect them.


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## imnotsosure

A judge will NOT grant a warrent by the end of the day, do not listen to that people. Not unless you have done something so terrible And there is physical evidence of such in which case they should be there and you should be held accountable. They WILL lie to you along with the police and tell you they will take your child, or that they are just here to help there is nothing to worry about, or that they are going to arrest you. Please do not listen to this. These are tactics, and the police go along right with them. ANYTHING that you say will be twisted taken out of context and used to begin the process to take you to family court and maybe criminal court. NOW... Being smart with them does not help either, as both the CPS worker and POLICE officer there to intimidate you at 7 or 8 am are trained specifically and they believe for some reason that being defensive means you are guilty of whatever accusation. They forget about the fact you are a parent, defending the life of your child. I am sorry to say if your in that position where they are on your front lawn, your being investigated. If you allow them into your home, they will take pictures, notes, and use anything less than perfect against your family. Its very hard, but its best to just be polite and bring your children outside for them to see record the conversation if you can with your cell phone anything. THEY are there to take your child away, its serious it wont go away. Tell them to please give you a card so that you can set up a time they can come back in the near future with your attorney there. They will squeal, lie, threaten you its their job. More cases = more funding. Once a child is taken into foster care they make the services so impossible, drag them out for years for you to not get your child back. Once they children are in custody they get FUNDING. When a child goes from foster care to ADOPTION, there is MORE funding. It is a BUSINESS. This is one of the most grossly hidden tragedys in our country. The media is not allowed to talk about it, if you google information on it there is nothing other than websites that warn you of it. It is creepy, and its is wrong. CPS makes it out to be that people who discuss this are radical, nutty, but this really happens and mostly in POOR communities where it is alot easier such as WALWORTH COUNTY, WI. I do not know anyone I met in that county in over 2 years who does not know of or someone from their family who had to deal with CPS and the police who go along with them. As my pastor told me in a counseling session, this has been going on a long long time here and its just getting worse. Its never ending. My family and I fought, we lost everything, but we are together and we got out. CPS is in no way there to help your family, or give you suggestions of where to get resources. It they were, they would give you a simple phone call, not be on your front lawn unannounced with a police officer. CPS in some counties across the country is completely out of control, they should be investigated and re structured so that attention to the children who really need their help is given. Too many families are being torn apart, lose their dignity, are finacially ruined over accusations from a bad divorce or a disgruntled family member or past friend/acquaintance. Its an American tragedy happening in living rooms on a daily basis. A child should only be taken away from his/her family for severe situations with clear cut physical evidence, not accusations. I can only tell you the emotional pain from a parent who basically lost their childs infancy due to fighting these people for years over false accusations. God bless the families who are just poor and learning as a family. God bless the children who really do need help also.


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## SquidMommy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *imnotsosure*
> 
> <snip> RANT WALWORTH COUNTY, WI.


You come across like someone with a serious axe to grind, perhaps while also looking for their space bar? Sarcasm aside - this is the exact kind of reactionary drabble that doesn't do either side any good. Villifying CPS doesn't help, (and of course there are CPS workers who abuse their power, just like there are crappy managers, teachers who pick on your kid, nurses who have lousy bedside manners, and waiters who spit in your food.) but neither does shrieking at us about the unpunctuated evils happening, apparently, all around you. You say we should help the kids who need it, but I don't see you advocating for an alternative, or even making a coherent point. Perhaps you could tell us what you think the states/provinces/whatever should do instead?

Before anyone says I don't have perspective - I work for the state I live in, in children's psychiatry. We see the kids who weren't reached by CPS in time. Abused, neglected, beaten, starved, burnt, sexually molested, exposed to drugs, exposed to alcohol, chained to various household items, left outside, locked in rooms, you name it. Imagine the worst of the worst, and then take it ten steps farther. CPS is a necessary evil in a world full of evils far worse than someone on your porch asking to see your kids. Yes, they DO receive all sorts of false complaints and allegations, and the good workers can sift through that. The bad workers, not so much - and I truly, truly feel for ANY family who has to deal with an overzealous CPS agent who is actively trying to upset their homelife. There isn't a happy medium to be had, unfortunately, and I can see it from both sides. I'd be horrified if a CPS worker came to my door. I can't honestly say I would know what to do, or if I would freeze in the moment. I can tell you, though, that if I had truly done nothing wrong and the worker was able to agree with me and clear the allegation - I wouldn't fault the worker or the system for showing up at my door. That shows the system works, even if it's inconvenient at times. Until there's a better alternative, this is what we have. And this isn't even close to foolproof.


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## Super~Single~Mama

CPS is not a business. How much do they get in grants for each child that is adopted? I can pretty well guarantee you that they spend far more that whatever number that is to successfully get a TPR granted.

It costs a lot of money, and takes a lot of time to get a TPR. Not to mention experts, they have to pay the foster parent stipend, pay all medical care for the child (obviously these come out of different funds in some cases, but medicaid is not free, even if the beneficiary isn't paying), therapies, supervisors for supervised visits, attorneys for the parents, the state, and the child. Not to mention the judge, social workers (who are over worked and underpaid), all the others in the state agency who are involved in the case, etc.

All of that is extremely costly for the state. Extremely.


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## queenjane

I've probably already posted in this thread but im too lazy to scroll up and see.

All i can say is that i have three adopted children. The one who spent the MOST time in her mother's care, who got sent back TWICE from foster care is the child of mine who has the most emotional issues. None of the three came into care for no reason, the reasons were clearly documented.

Yes, states get "bonuses" here is more info about that : http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/congress/overview.htm#Incentive In my state, agencies get the MOST money for placing a child who is listed on the state photolisting and who is with a different agency...thus encouraging the placement of children who have been *waiting the longest.* Obviously, there may be certain agencies and counties who have some secret agenda to steal children away from healthy families so they can adopt them out and get bonuses....but as a broad, country-wide agenda? Frankly, there is so much disorganization and dropping-of-the-ball and passing-the-buck and total lack of communication between different "arms" of the child welfare system that i can't see them working together for some covert operation like that. In my state CPS is totally separate from the private agencies who place children. Then of course there is the prosecutor who decides whether to pursue TPR, and then the judge who decides. Its one big conspiracy? if so, then why was my daughter sent back to her bmom when she was a tiny six month old baby, rather than being easily adopted out? Why sent back as a cute little five year old? Why did they wait until she was 8 yrs old with significant emotional problems to FINALLY tpr and then adopt out? It doesnt make logical sense.


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## Super~Single~Mama

From queenjane's link:

Quote:


> Michigan, for instance, is using a performance-based incentive system designed to encourage and reward the timely adoption of children from the foster care system. The State of Michigan makes extensive use of private agencies for adoption placement services. Under the State's adoption incentive, private agencies are rewarded for placing children more quickly, receiving an enhanced rate of *$5,600 for placing a child within eight months.* If an agency takes longer than 8 months to place a child in an adoptive home, it receives the *standard rate of* *$3,500*. Furthermore, private agencies are paid a premium rate of *$8,600 for placing a child who is not in the care of that private agency, but who is included in the State's photolisting book of children who are hard to place.*


These incentives are probably helpful to agencies, but are hardly worth the trouble (and cost, since this does NOT reimburse the agency or state for the cost of seeking TPR!) of removing children from healthy families solely to get them.


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## queenjane

Exactly. The "standard rate" an agency gets is $3,500, and that is supposed to cover the homestudy, training, home visits, etc etc. They get a little bit more for putting extra effort in placing kids who wait longer (we have kids on the MI photolisting who have been waiting years and years!) And the highest rate (placing a child who is with another agency) encourages agencies to allow their families to adopt kids who arent with their own agency, otherwise many workes might feel its too much trouble or feel too "possessive" of their families/kids and want to keep it all in-house.

Frankly i bet there is more of a "profit" to be had in keeping kids in foster care, because once that adoption is finalized the agency might get a bonus but then they receive no more money from that case. Sadly though, there is no shortage of kids coming into care so that isnt too much of a worry for the agencies.


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## queenjane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vikki Bowser*
> 
> your full of shit my mom went through it. don't miss lead people to think cps are nice good people i grew up in a nice clean house and went to school faithfully and cps was still knocking at our door, all because my mom wasn't a "traditional" home maker and you don't have to let them in your home without warranted cause i had healthy families of America tell me that one. where I'm from cps work with healthy families.


Calm down. Your experience is different than MY experience. That doesnt make ANYONE "full of shit"...i've been contacted by CPS twice with my oldest son when he was little based on allegations people made, and also during my stint as a foster parent. All three times turned out fine in the end, but believe me, i know that all it takes is one crazy sw to ruin your life. Those things happen...they SHOULDNT but they do. But that doesnt mean that CPS wants to steal your children *so that they can adopt them out for supposed big bucks from the govt*...i have my experience, you have your experience and that may color how we view CPS (my adopted children's lives were probably saved by CPS intervention) but can't we keep the discussion respectful?


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## CrazyCatLady

My mother in law called CPS on me numerous times because I was going to move away with my daughter and she didn't like it. I refused to let the social worker in and they came back within an hour with police and a warrant. My daughter was removed that same day because I was "uncooperative" and therefore "they couldn't ensure my dd's safety". So they threw her in a van and drove off with her. I've never seen such a look of terror on a child's face before.

I was a good crunchy mom. We lived in a huge, clean house. My daughter was well fed, home schooled and involved in lots of activities, had friends, etc. There was no abuse of any kind (I have never once hit her or anything like it). Certainly no neglect. No drugs or alcohol. But they took her anyways.

At first they said they took her because I was uncooperative. Then it was because I have bi-polar and that means that there is potential for abuse or neglect. Then by the time trial happened there was so much made up stuff (with no proof) that it is still unbelievable to me. Supposedly I cut myself in front of my daughter, was on the internet threatening to kill her, etc. All completely made up things! They never did accuse me of any physical abuse though, which I guess was "kind" of them.

The kicker was that CPS gave my daughter to the same MIL who lied and started all this to begin with. My daughter HATES my MIL and was miserable living with her for months. There were plenty of other people jumping at the chance to take my dd in. But my MIL had CPS wrapped around her finger for some reason (I never have figured it out).

I played the game. Drove the 50 miles each way for my one hour visit a week. Attended every hearing. Took pointless parenting classes that taught me nothing after years of being on MDC. Continued to see my doctors and psychiatrists (like I always had been anyways).

It's been a year and a half now and my daughter lives with me full time again. However, CPS is still in control of our lives. I am not allowed to home school. I'm not allowed to move. I can't go anywhere or do anything with out the social worker calling and talking to someone (you know how embarrassing that can get after a while? this includes my jobs, etc). And we live in constant fear of doing (or not doing) something wrong and them removing her yet again. Everything is supposed to be dismissed in Oct...but I won't believe it until it happens.

So I don't really care one bit what the social workers here on MDC have to say about CPS. Corruption sure as hell does happen. It happened to me and because of that I believe it is happening to a lot of people. There is no way that my case is just a very random, unlucky situation. No abuse, no neglect, no drugs, living conditions were perfect...and they still took her. It sickens me really.


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## CrazyCatLady

Oh and they did use all of my MDC posts from years past against me during the trial. So I always warn people here to be careful what they say online. Because I have seen it come back to bite you when it comes to CPS.


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## cynthia mosher

Viki Bowser, I see you are a new member. Please appreciate that we do not allow personal attacks of member. If you cannot discuss something politely and with respect for others please refrain from posting.


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## Linda on the move

Quote:
Originally Posted by *queenjane* 


> But that doesnt mean that CPS wants to steal your children *so that they can adopt them out for supposed big bucks from the govt*...i have my experience, you have your experience and that may color how we view CPS *(my adopted children's lives were probably saved by CPS intervention)* but can't we keep the discussion respectful?


*Warning: Possible Triggers*

Here is a recent news story about a baby that CPS failed to save. CPS made the call to return a child to its birth parents, and 2 weeks later, the child was dead. http://www.kvoa.com/news/foster-parents-of-dead-baby-speak-out/

Part of the problem with CPS is that their mandate is to predict human behavior, which is impossible. They try to sort out which reports are made by people simply to mess with the parent, and which calls are made in an attempt to protect children. They try to guess which parents can care for their children, even imperfectly, and which parents are a danger to their children.

But CPS employees are just human beings, without any special powers. They cannot predict the future.


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## Single mom 35

I would have to disagree there's a reason why the Bill of rights is law we are by law in all states allowed to refuse cps entry even law enforcement if there is no warrant or court order then they have no right to threaten,coerce,intimidate or force there way in people's home can be a mess at time's when you have kids an can be a mess when your doing a deep cleaning an a cps worker could careless if you've been cleaning or not thet'll use it as a reason to remove your kids i know cause its been done to me.


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## SquidMommy

@Single mom 35: You sure you're not Viki Bowser in disguise? This thread is doing a great job at dragging out the people with an axe to grind. CPS is fallible. They make the wrong calls in returning kids. They make the wrong calls in removing kids. At the end of they day, that CPS worker is a fallible human being. Who has personal family concerns, bills to pay, dinners to make, headaches, colds, take-out pizza. They are Just People. They can't look into a crystal ball, there's no computer that generates odds and likely outcomes. Thus, there's going to be times that the wrong decision is made. Should it EVER happen? No. It can ruin lives, often it does. But it does, because it's a system run by people, trying to anticipate the behavior of other people. Sorry. No good answer.


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## MichelleW1970

*This is not necessairly the case. Im actually dealing with them here in Utah over a situation and yes, they can enter your house take pictures and look around. Inspect everything...how much food, how clean, is there bad food around? re the kids rooms clean? Do they have clean beds? Do they even have beds? Are the kids clean and well taken care of? Is the house clean? Are there are any drugs or dangerous things around? Do the parents have previous cases with the CPS? These are just some of the things that come to issue with them...Down here, they are especially critical of cleanliness. My house is somewhat cluttered and a little messy...but not at all bad. People have called CPS (Child Protective Service) for false allegations. I do not abuse or neglect or hurt my kids even though someone said my son was neglected. For some reason, Utah CPS is totally hung up on cleanliness rather than the real issues of what is and does go on. There are people out there who deal and use drugs (not me) and are highly abusive and horrible to kids...and people who have just horrible places to live in with their kids...I have seen houses broken to pieces and beyond trashed and bad in almost all kind of ways. These are the people who CPS needs to deal with. Leave others including me alone...There is a boy down the street from us..he and his brother are being raised by his grand parents and they would come and walk to school with my daughter...my daughter is 7 and he is 10. Anyway this kid and his younger brother constantly smelled like strong cigerrete smoke...all on their clothes and their hair. Nasty. Just smelling that made me not only feel sick but was quite offending...and while i dont know the exact situation of these kids, I believe it to be dysfunctional. However, for parents or grandparents to smoke heavily around young kids in my mind is abuse and they should be talked to. In fact, i can agree that kids should not at all be living in a smoke filled enviornment...its a health concern..why dont cps step in on that? The fact that i am dealing with the CPS on my own situations which i think their actions is not warranted there are people who do so much worse and get away with it.at any rate, yes they can come into your home. And no you dont have to let them in, however, they can then go and get a court order demanding to see your house. If you dont comply then you get into further problems which could unfortunately result in a temporary removal which is what i am facing...you can certainly fight them but the judges here in this pathetic state will always from what i have heard side with the cps. Social workers can and often do show up unannounced. They do this deliberately and they can go to the childs school without you as a parent even knowing they did and talk to your child and get them to tell them things that they never told you. And worse, use it against you. When they come to your home they can talk to your kids in like manner in private asking about abuse and how well mom and dad treats them and use that too against you...they look for anything and everything. Like a debt collector..anything the kids say or you tell them can and could be used against you. They love people who are informers because then they have that as a weapon.. The CPS are vultures. If you have been calling them, then please stop at once! They are the government and the governmet can be a dangerous entity to deal with on this...In fact, many people are really ignorant of the fact that when they call the cps of something they feel is wrong with a kid, they have NO clue of just how much damage they can really cause someone even of they are calling innocently. i have seen several otherwise good descent hard working families be literally ruined by the so called CPS for things didnt warrant it...they pray on people..they never seem to go away once they have a victim in their clutches. its like a cancer..it just keeps growing and getting worse the more they come around. If more and more Americans and others knew this, the less power the CPS and Social Services would have over the general public...They have NO clue how much damage they cause to the lives of not just the kids but parents and families etc. These people who call feel they are justified and somehow have a high sense of entitlement just because they either dont like something or have some kind of revenge against a person..to essentially but into other peoples affairs and business and have no idea of the real problem, situation or just what is happening in the shoes of the kids or others..they should learn to mind their own business...and if more people just looked the other way and never deal with the CPS (people learn as a family unit and society to handle their own problems like in other nations) society would be better and happier..these people who make calls to them are NOT helping problems they are more often than not creating them. I think laws should be made on what truly constitutes a call to them and people who call should be made to think twice before doing so...there should be proof of abuse or neglect before someone calls. If it is a false allegation, the caller should be heavily fined of not charged..like 911 does for wasting their time or placing a false call.. Im for sure not at all the only person who feels this way and agrees to it...I refuse to deal with the cps after i am cleared of all this mess ever....even if i see a parent is being abusive to a kid...because i have no right ruin someones life like they have mine. I just will not ever...i dont want anything like this to happen to someone else..thats how much i care. I mind my business. Sad others dont. I would not call them or deal with them if i were you in the future. Look the other way please. America has the social service programs and CPS because American society is made up of a large amount of babies and immature people who cannot resolve their own problems amongst themselves and once again, as in other culturally close family knit nations...thats a shame. The CPS should be completely abolished and if i were in power or president that and the social services would be the very first thing to abolish and get rid of. And maybe the people who work for them imprisoned and criminally charged as much of what they do is in a sense..boarder line criminal as rights violations. They use the law to hide behind to just if their actions and get away with it.. Many other countries dont have this nor do they need it...thats what culture lifestyle and families with close knit cultural ties are for. The government is simply too big, getting bigger and has too much power and they think they can just walk into your home and tell you how to live and raise and parent your kids...etc. Well, ill be honest: that is wrong. Sadly, if you are in America, you will see much more of it because America is losing freedoms and becoming socialist and by socialism the government can do a lot of things that before it couldnt including violation of rights you once had....Im not on a rant here, Im providing education to people on this site, yourself included about what you and many others might not have ever known about the CPS. Stop dealing with them...dont give them any help..believe me they dont need any help from you or anyone else...they are vultures and will clamp down on someone and never let go...they dont need you to help in their evil to find their victims...*


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## chaimom

I am absolutely baffled as to why this site has so many threads with posters afraid the authorities will take away their children. I've never seen threads like this on other parenting boards. Honestly, it makes me wonder.


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## Storm Bride

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chaimom*
> 
> I am absolutely baffled as to why this site has so many threads with posters afraid the authorities will take away their children. I've never seen threads like this on other parenting boards. Honestly, it makes me wonder.


FWIW, I'm not at all concerned that my kids will be taken away. Unless I get one of the scary, power-tripping social workers (and, yes - they are out there - I've met them - but I don't believe they're the majority, by any means), there's no reason for that to happen. But, they do have that power, and that's terrifying. I've already had some well-meaning (maybe - if it's who I think it was, it wasn't well intentioned at all) person sic them on me for an attempted homebirth...and having them show up while I was in labour caused my labour to stall. I ended up losing that baby, through a complicated chain of events. I take ultimate responsibility for that chain, but having a government agency show up at my door while i was naked in the birth pool was one of the links in the chain. I've seen probably well-meaning attempts to help end up making things worse for the kids in question too many times to be anything but nervous about CPS.

I also once had a former school friend, who was a social worker, mishear something I said while we were all out for a reunion party. I'd made a comment to one of our other old friends about the days when we used to smoke pot at lunch break, and my "friend" heard something about drugs, and thought I was currently smoking them, with a baby in the house. (This was many years ago, as the "baby" is now 19.) She proceeded to say, "hey - watch that talking about drugs - I could take your baby away. I am a social worker, you know", followed by a cheerful laugh. I don't think people who think it's acceptable to "amusingly" threaten to take someone's child from them are appropriate people to have that power. But, she still had it. If she'd decided to pursue some old high school vendetta against someone, it would have been her word against theirs, and I could see her doing it.

The fact that people say "I'm here to help", "trust me" and "I can take your child away from you" doesn't mean I have to trust them. If they ever get involved with my life, I may have to accommodate their prejudices (eg. the hangup some of them seem to have about pristine homes), but I don't have to trust them. Having any involvement with them would simply increase my stress levels, which would not be beneficial to me or my family.

OTOH, if my crazy neighbour did call them last summer, they seem to have laughed off the "OMG - her two year old wasn't wearing shoes!!" complaint, as least.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow

Petronella-

I've removed your post. Please keep away from personal attacks.


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## LitMom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chaimom*
> 
> I am absolutely baffled as to why this site has so many threads with posters afraid the authorities will take away their children. I've never seen threads like this on other parenting boards. Honestly, it makes me wonder.


Yeah, there are a lot aren't there? I have to say, the idea of CPS being called scares me when I'm reading this discussion and similar, but not in everyday life. I'm not divorced, have good relationships with the in-laws and my relatives as well. Those two facts seem to make an inordinate amount of difference in who gets reported to start with.

I worried more when the youngest was low on the growth curve and exclusively breastfeeding. That was a good impetus though, for me to switch pediatricians to find one who understood that DS was just following his father's growth curve as a baby (pretty much exactly the same weights at the same ages as DH). DS and DH are still beanpoles, tall and thin.

They may dress funky, but they clearly have other options in their drawers, they just have a quirky sense of personal style, which I don't mind indulging. My kids get their fair share of bumps and bruises... well, the wild child gets more than his fair share, but I figure the pediatrician knows him well enough to know that he climbs, runs, and falls A LOT. The DOE receives all our homeschool paperwork and test scores and I keep copies, along with a portfolio of work. There are teachers of various classes and programs and church members to establish how we interact with one another. Generally, I figure, as I do with homeschooling, that city gov't/CPS is overwhelmed enough here that they won't mess with anyone just for fun.

I can't imagine what anyone would report other than the annoying, snoopy neighbor; and what's she going to say? The kids are loud? They squabble? I yell at them to knock it off? "They don't go to school," she'd say, probably, I guess. I imagine in that case, they'd look 'em up and they're in the DOE system, where they're listed as longstanding homeschoolers with full paperwork and 99th percentile achievement scores.


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## Cyllya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chaimom*
> 
> I am absolutely baffled as to why this site has so many threads with posters afraid the authorities will take away their children. I've never seen threads like this on other parenting boards. Honestly, it makes me wonder.


It's probably because this site is filled with parents who do things outside the norm and have thus had their neighbors and extended relatives flat out accuse them a treating their child cruelly or doing something illegal.

As far as being concerned about having a clean house, I can only suppose people grew up with parents who called the house "filthy" if there was dog hair on the couch and toys on the bedroom floor, plus they only see pristine or as-pristine-as-possible houses on TV, in magazines, and when they're a guest at someone else's home (because that person frantically cleans before they come over), so they honestly think that's what a filthy home is.


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## goldylochs73

So I have noticed that many of the people leaving comments here don't really know what happens when CPS comes knocking. Recently we called CPS on my mother in law who has five children at home from ages 6-15. They met them at the door and my mother in law who has been through this several times before politely asked for them to come another time. They got out their schedules and made a date. The date came, the house was perfect and children well rehursed and the cased was closed quickly before even opened.
So you can in fact ask the CPS agent to come at a "better" time I have seen it happen now and it doesn't really matter how screwed up they are being treated emotionally, as long as they are fed and clothed and lied to and the house is clean then everything will be fine.
Also I think many of you would agree with me when I say that having a degree means virtually nothing when it comes to raising kids unless you have your own. There is nothing that can prepare you enough for being a parent but parenthood itself. People that believe that "educated" people are the answer to all our problems both abroad and domestic should take a look at the VERY educated people ruining everything from healthcare to government to education itself.


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## beedum

Hello all,

I can say that in the USA it is very different. First of all, many caseworkers in the 80's, and 90's were documented to have been trained to question children in a way that would create "false memories", and confessions of things that were later proven not to have happened. This is why interrogating young children is not legal in the USA unless a parent, or legal advisor/attorney is not present-parents here also have the right to have it recorded. However, just because this is the law doesn't mean they will acknowledge it, or that you will be protected under it without a fight. Public schools will often allow "personal" interviews with children even with express written letter from the parent forbidding it without a lawyer/tape recorder/parent present.

In the USA, you can refuse entry without a warrant. The privacy of a home is protected, and due process rights are provided under the 14th amendment. In the US if you allow entry you forfeit rights to deny entry at a later date. (This happened to a very good friend of mine). Even though you won't find out who reported you or see a copy of the report, you can find out what the allegations are, and provide doctors notes etc. from you own doctors/psychologist refuting any irresponsible parenting. You have the right to have the caseworker return at a later date for an appointment.

You are not obligated to offer information on yourself, or family affiliates (doctor, pastor etc.) These people though likely to give you a good reference can be incorrectly and maliciously "quoted" without recourse either by you, or the person falsely quoted even with proof and witnesses, and pertinent information (information exonerating you) can be withheld solely at the caseworkers discretion.

In the USA, for each child taken into custody, the agency gets a bonus. For each child adopted out, and bonus goes to the caseworker. There are plenty of honest caseworkers who mean well, but there are just as many who are in it for the bonus.

Unfortunately, as always you do not have rights unless you know what they are.

After reading some of the comments on here about Canadian law regarding child protective services, it is very apparent to me why the USA is still considered a country with some of the most liberal personal rights-I guess despite the embarrassing leadership we've had in the last 14 years (give or take, LOL), I still have a reason to remain a proud American.


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## beedum

I hate to break it to people on here, but Senator Nancy Shaefer (who is no longer with us) investigated not only the false removal of children in the US, but the profit made by these state agencies for their removals. She even went a step further and documented her findings and concerns. The following is copied directly from her report: (There is much, much more listed, but I only pasted those points pertaining to funding in regards to CPS in the USA.)

The Adoption and the Safe Families Act, set in motion by President Bill Clinton,offered cash "bonuses" to the states for every child they adopted out of foster care. Inorder to receive the "adoption incentive bonuses" local child protective services need more children. They must have merchandise (children) that sell and you must haveplenty of them so the buyer can choose. Some counties are known to give a $4,000 bonus for each child adopted and an additional $2,000 for a "special needs" child.Employees work to keep the federal dollars flowing;

that there is double dipping. The funding continues as long as the child is out of the home. When a child in foster care is placed with a new family then "adoption bonus funds" are available. When a child is placed in a mental health facility and is on 16 drugs per day, like two children of a constituent of mine, more funds are involved;

that tax dollars are being used to keep this gigantic system afloat, yet the victims, parents, grandparents, guardians and especially the children, are charged for the system's services


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## contactmaya

What is the incentive for keeping a family intact? Is the good intention of a case worker the only thing a parent can rely upon to keep their family intact?

'Mandated' reporters can call the cps for malicious reasons, or simply because they disagree with a parent on say, a vaccination schedule. There must be something in place to protect family rights. Are the above laws you cited, most of which parents would not know, and would not be upheld without professional assistance, the only thing to protect family rights?

Please help me restore my faith in society. It cant be that easy to remove children from loving homes.

In the past, babies were automatically robbed from single mothers. A whole generation of children (aborigines in Australia) were stolen from their families to be raised by white people.

I am trying to figure out what prevents this from happening now, if all you need is a call to the cps and a worker after a cash bonus.


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## queenjane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beedum*
> 
> I hate to break it to people on here, but Senator Nancy Shaefer (who is no longer with us) investigated not only the false removal of children in the US, but the profit made by these state agencies for their removals. She even went a step further and documented her findings and concerns. The following is copied directly from her report: (There is much, much more listed, but I only pasted those points pertaining to funding in regards to CPS in the USA.)
> 
> The Adoption and the Safe Families Act, set in motion by President Bill Clinton,offered cash "bonuses" to the states for every child they adopted out of foster care. Inorder to receive the "adoption incentive bonuses" local child protective services need more children. They must have merchandise (children) that sell and you must haveplenty of them so the buyer can choose. Some counties are known to give a $4,000 bonus for each child adopted and an additional $2,000 for a "special needs" child.Employees work to keep the federal dollars flowing;
> 
> that there is double dipping. The funding continues as long as the child is out of the home. When a child in foster care is placed with a new family then "adoption bonus funds" are available. When a child is placed in a mental health facility and is on 16 drugs per day, like two children of a constituent of mine, more funds are involved;
> 
> that tax dollars are being used to keep this gigantic system afloat, yet the victims, parents, grandparents, guardians and especially the children, are charged for the system's services


This is a complete mischaracterization of the Safe Families Act.


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## Smithie

I agree, that is a mischaracterization of the Safe Families Act.

I've also been involved in a case (Ike was placed with us almost one year ago today! How time flies!) where the home investigator (who I think is called the CPS worker elsewhere) really screwed up, the mom was unable to effectively advocate for her children due to a language barrier, and the children were removed without anything approaching sufficient cause. I got to see the whole case unfold from beginning to end (including meeting the mother by chance a few months after she'd regained custody). I was at the trial. I heard all the evidence. Based on how I saw the system work in that instance, I will not be letting a home investigator into my house if they knock on the door. They can scuttle away for the cops and a warrant, and meanwhile I will be calling my husband, my lawyer, and somebody with a video camera to bear witness to the entire interaction. Even if 99.999% of home investigators are entirely competent and would close the whole thing out in five minutes if I decide to let them in, what if the .001% is the one who caught my case? Interactions with home investigators need to be documented. If they are planning to conduct themselves according to their professional standards, they have no reason to object.


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## beedum

Originally Posted by *beedum* 

I hate to break it to people on here, but Senator Nancy Shaefer (who is no longer with us) investigated not only the false removal of children in the US, but the profit made by these state agencies for their removals. She even went a step further and documented her findings and concerns. The following is copied directly from her report: (There is much, much more listed, but I only pasted those points pertaining to funding in regards to CPS in the USA.)

The Adoption and the Safe Families Act, set in motion by President Bill Clinton,offered cash "bonuses" to the states for every child they adopted out of foster care. Inorder to receive the "adoption incentive bonuses" local child protective services need more children. They must have merchandise (children) that sell and you must haveplenty of them so the buyer can choose. Some counties are known to give a $4,000 bonus for each child adopted and an additional $2,000 for a "special needs" child.Employees work to keep the federal dollars flowing;

that there is double dipping. The funding continues as long as the child is out of the home. When a child in foster care is placed with a new family then "adoption bonus funds" are available. When a child is placed in a mental health facility and is on 16 drugs per day, like two children of a constituent of mine, more funds are involved;

that tax dollars are being used to keep this gigantic system afloat, yet the victims, parents, grandparents, guardians and especially the children, are charged for the system's services

This is a complete mischaracterization of the Safe Families Act.

Only the first paragraph above was written by me personally. The rest was written by senator Schaefer after her investigation.

Perhaps this is an accurate characterization of legislature that was put in place with the best of intentions, but exploited over time for profit. Anywhere there is money incentive (unfortunately) there will be abuse and corruption. There are great social workers out there, unfortunately there are some that are not so great as well.

My advise to anyone: You have no rights if you don't know them. They can and should investigate, but that is their job. Your job is to protect yourself and your family from people who have the power to abuse. Just as they don't know who you are and what you're capable of, you have just as little information as the person at the other end of the badge. I have never had the pleasure of the company of "CPS" <sarcasm>, but I have done a lot of research due to a friends horrendous experience with them. In the end she got her children back, but not after her entire family suffering a lot of grief. She lost her house due to having to make the choice between paying the mortgage, and paying an attorney. Obviously she made the right choice despite living now in an apartment, and having her credit etc. ruined on top of the anguish her children went through.


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## Smithie

beedum, you are conflating two unconflatable things - the number of children taken into care, and the number of children adopted out of foster care. The vast majority of children who come into care are either reunified, placed with kin, or age out of the system. Foster care is not a money-making system. And OMG, if I were in the market to "buy" a child, foster-adoption is the LAST route I would take to reach that goal. I have never had worse customer service in my life - except, of course, I am not a customer.


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## queenjane

I didnt know who "Sen. Nancy Shaefer" was so i looked her up. Turns out she was a STATE sen. who was a champion of right wing causes who wrote the report beedum references above. When i went to do an internet search of her findings, the first page of results were on "anti-CPS/anti adoption" type websites. Lots of conspiracy theories surrounding her death as well (apparently she was killed by her husband in a murder/suicide)...so...all im saying is look at the source. I dont think we should take one report by one state senator (who, it sounds like, i would disagree with on all of her other positions given the description i read on wikipedia) as gospel.

Are there abuses in the CPS system? No doubt. Are children sometimes taken from parents unjustifiably and even adopted? No doubt.

But is there a widespread, national conspiracy to "steal" children away from fit parents in order to make "big bucks" through federal adoption incentives? Um...no. That is crazy. The financial incentives states get for adoption are to encourage permanency for the children who wait the longest. In my state the people doing the removals are not even the people in charge of the foster homes the children will go to, and the foster workers arent even the ones in charge of adoption if the case gets that far! Not to mention it is the JUDGE who terminates parental rights. What beedum (and the late sen.) is suggesting is that there is a vast conspiracy between CPS investigators, judges, public and private agencies, adoption workers, etc....heck, i could never even get my agency to keep track of my mileage reports or pay me clothing stipends in a timely manner, so i think thats giving all of these people WAY to much credit.

I feel like we've had this conversation before (maybe even in this thread LOL)...and there is always a low-count poster who seems to have come to MDC solely to promote their agenda. We get this all.the.time on the Adoptive Parents board. Post about, say, attachment disorder and here come the 1 post count people to say how evil attach. therapy is and link to all sorts of extreme and paranoid sites.

I do think people should be aware that things can spiral out of control quickly when it comes to social services and things can get blown WAY out of proportion. I've experienced this myself. Best to know your rights and dont give your rights away.


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## AmandaT

A few days ago I had a DHFS worker come and knock on my door







(I assume they are, or fall under the same umbrella, as CPS).

I was petrified, but of course let them in immediately (I was far too shocked to even think about the 4th amendment). My house was a "total mess" (I put this in quotes because it was messy, DP had just been sick and I was getting sick, but it certainly wasn't dirty- maybe the kitchen was a tiny bit







- and nothing like what I've read about on this thread).

Luckily I had a very understanding sw who seemed to realize it was a nonsense call almost immediately. She even said she loved this type of call, where she could just close it out immediately. Someone called saying my 9 mo only weighed 12-13 lbs (she is skinny, but weighs at least 15 lbs, and her pediatrician is not concerned), that I only breastfeed her and REFUSE to feed her solids (more like she's barely interested), she's only been to the doctor's once, and I never treated her for an ear infection (been to all her wbv and had actually just been on Mon for a rash lol).... A bunch of nonsense. There was some truth in report- she wears an amber teething necklace (not sure how that's abuse), I follow a natural mothering approach...

and then the big one: Cosleeping.

Yes, I cosleep, no there is no crib in the house. Although she did make a passing comment about co-sleeping being the number one cause of infant death (I just kept my mouth shut) she then just ordered us a crib, and it was no problem. No lectures, no parenting classes or safety concerns.

It was terrifying and mortifying but overall a relatively painless experience (although the case is not closed yet so send good vibes my way!). The worst part of it was the lack of trust I now have for everyone around me. I wish that for junk reports you could find out who reported you. Why would someone lie about things that are so easily proven? All DHFS needs to do is talk to my pediatrician (which I wish they had done before they came out) and everything is cleared up.

It makes me want to stop going to all of my groups/classes for DD. I have no idea who it could have been, and why someone would lie about our family


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## beedum

Wow, I had no idea that facts I brought to light were not considered due to the fact that I am new to this site. I was mentioned by name and labeled a "liberal" by this person who thinks that name calling, or as we like to say: mudd slinging would negate facts.

As for the mischaracterization of The Adoption and Safe Families Act: Perhaps this is legislature put into affect with the best of intentions, but the facts remain that there is monetary incentive to remove, and keep children removed from their homes. I am not against adoption, nor do I believe that a families don't need help sometimes, but the facts remain.

Where there is monetary incentive, there is always going to be a risk for abuse in order to exploit that incentive. I don't believe in any of the "conspiracy theories" that surrounded the late Senator, but I do believe the facts that she uncovered make well-meaning adoptive parents like youself uneasy-and rightly so. No one wants to think that a child taken into their home and "saved" could have possibly been unjustifiably removed from their birth parent.

My best friend was adopted. She was born to a single sixteen year old mom, and was taken from her at birth. This was (whether people like to acknowledge it or not) very common practice amongst different religious groups throughout the fifties and sixties. She was raised by a loving adoptive family, and as an adult was able to find (through a private investigator) her birth mother, and meet her brothers and sisters for the first time. I am slightly unnerved by the practice of closed adoption because there is a very real possibility (no matter how remote) of meeting and marrying a relative.

As for the facts brought to light by the late Senator's investigation: Despite a "liberal" nametag being put on anyone questioning authoritative bodies that accept any kind of "bonus", the late Senator had a very long career and was a very pronounced conservative.

As with any societal issues, the answers are never simple ones. Just as there are great parents accused without grounds, there are bad ones that need intervention. Just as there are great social workers who are there to make the world a better place, there are those that follow their own agenda. Just as there are wonderful people that become adoptive parents with their eyes open, there are those that would prefer to turn a blind eye to the possibility of these travesties.

I urge all people to educate themselves. Children statistically are more likely to be abused in the foster care system-therefor it should be a last resort to remove a child. This doesn't mean turning a blind eye to abusive parents either, but there has to be a limitation of a social workers power for those that don't understand dishes in the sink are not abuse. Hope you all have a great day.


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## AmandaT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beedum*
> 
> I urge all people to educate themselves. Children statistically are more likely to be abused in the foster care system-therefor it should be a last resort to remove a child.


I'm having a heard time understanding this bit. More likely to be abused in a foster home then where, in their parent's home? I'm sure children get removed for bad reasons *very* occasionally, but children usually get removed from homes because of abuse. Therefore it makes no sense to say they are more likely to get abused in the foster system. Maybe I'm missing something.

-I just wanted to add it is terrible that children are EVER abused, especially when they are supposed to be in a safe place now (ie foster system). This is neither here nor there however.

*edited for spelling


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## queenjane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AmandaT*
> 
> A few days ago I had a DHFS worker come and knock on my door
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I assume they are, or fall under the same umbrella, as CPS).


Amanda i'm sorry you had to go through all that! I totally understand how horrible it feels, i've had similar things happen to me and it makes you all sorts of paranoid...i still dont totally trust my neighbors and i've lived here for a couple of years now. I hope everything wraps up quickly and positively for you!!!


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## queenjane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beedum*
> 
> Wow, I had no idea that facts I brought to light were not considered due to the fact that I am new to this site. I was mentioned by name and labeled a "liberal" by this person who thinks that name calling, or as we like to say: mudd slinging would negate facts.


What are you talking about?

The reason i mention being "new to the site" is that very often when there is a post on a "controversial" topic, a poster will come and post solely on THAT topic, and they happen to have a very extreme view. You arent "new to the site"...you havent contributed anywhere but on this thread. I welcome new members but when someone clearly seems to have an agenda, yes i question that. I would be MUCH more likely to listen to the view of someone i have grown to know and respect on this site rather than a "drive by poster"...and who labeled you a "liberal"?? My point was exactly the opposite, that the senator apparently was a staunch supporter of the religion right, was anti abortion, anti gay, etc etc...therefore since she seemed to believe the polar OPPOSITE to everything i believe in and stand for, im much more likely to disregard her opinion on everything else.

Other than a right wing conservative deceased senator's report from years ago....what other proof do you have that there is a widespread agenda amongst foster care agencies to unjustifiably remove children in order to make a profit off of federal incentives? As i've explained to you, in my state there are MANY people in the mix by the time a child is available for adoption. Who makes the profit? its NOT the person who initially removes the child.

Quote:


> I do believe the facts that she uncovered make well-meaning adoptive parents like youself uneasy-and rightly so. No one wants to think that a child taken into their home and "saved" could have possibly been unjustifiably removed from their birth parent.


Again, what are you talking about? Your "facts" do not make me uneasy...hysterical conspiracy theorists irritate me though. And your second sentence...i do not feel i "saved" my children. And the facts of each of my children's removals were disclosed to me as is (i believe) required by law. I know exactly why/how/when they were removed, and in fact with my last two children (the first's bmom did not contest removal or termination) i spoke extensively with the bmom over the course of several months (and we still have some contact.) My situation is not unique.

The JUDGE was the one who ultimately terminated parental rights. Did SHE get kickbacks from the federal govt too? Oh and wait....a three-judge panel with the state Supreme Court upheld her decision....what profit did THEY make??

Again, i will say that i do think its possible that in certain areas or some circumstances workers are overzealous in the removal of children, and in some limited places there may actually be a monetary reason to that, and i hope thats investigated and changed. But one report by one state senator does not a national agenda make. It just doesnt.


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## queenjane

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AmandaT*
> 
> I'm having a heard time understanding this bit. More likely to be abused in a foster home then where, in their parent's home? I'm sure children get removed for bad reasons *very* occasionally, but children usually get removed from homes because of abuse. Therefore it makes no sense to say they are more likely to get abused in the foster system. Maybe I'm missing something.


this so called statistic "chidren are more likely to be abused in foster care" is repeated a lot by anti-fc and anti-adoption folks. I havent researched it a lot but found a blog article that summed up nicely the problems with such a statement: http://joshuaallenonline.com/2010/11/19/on-the-high-rates-of-abuse-in-foster-care-%E2%80%9Clies-damn-lies-and-statistics-%E2%80%9D/ I dont know the author or what his interest in foster care is, but he did make some interesting points....that foster homes are often very highly scrutinized so if they uncover a higher rate of abuse than in the general population it may be because no one is going into most homes looking for abuse. As a foster parent i had a worker in my home each month, sometimes surprise visits, my children had to visit the doctor regularly, every little scratch was questioned by the worker. She even called CPS on me because my two toddlers scuffled and one put scratches on the other's forehead, then the next week he fell and bumped his head...she called that a "pattern" and said it had to be reported as possible abuse. The CPS worker thought it was silly but we got to have a nice chat for an hour on how screwed up the system is. Also, the author points out that when you foster, often bparents are making allegations against you because they are upset their child is in foster care (and think somehow if the child is removed from you the child will go back to them)...and of course some children have issues and make allegations. And he also says that in some areas things like leaving a teen alone for a couple of hours is logged as "neglect" by the foster parent....so that can all add up to LOOK like more abuse when there isnt really. I also think sometimes that foster care DOES attract abusive people and i am not saying kids are NOT abused in some foster homes...my own daughter was hit with a belt or extension cord in a foster home. it happens, unfortunately.


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## contactmaya

> The JUDGE was the one who ultimately terminated parental rights. Did SHE get kickbacks from the federal govt too? Oh and wait....a three-judge panel with the state Supreme Court upheld her decision....what profit did THEY make??
> 
> Again, i will say that i do think its possible that in certain areas or some circumstances workers are overzealous in the removal of children, and in some limited places there may actually be a monetary reason to that, and i hope thats investigated and changed. But one report by one state senator does not a national agenda make. It just doesnt.


Queenjane, since you seem to know alot about the system. I would appreciate it (if you have the time) to give a concise reply the question i asked upthread, about what exactly is in place to keep families intact when a cps worker comes knocking, other than my right to refuse entry to a cps worker.(oh, and when it goes to court, can you imagine having to do that? a judge who does their job)

In the above paragraph, you sort of answered my question, but as a single mom with three kids

(and AmandaT my a baby also wears an amber necklace;-), not to mention we practise EC), i get attention from others, usually positive, but not always. I want to know what is in place to protect my rights, and the rights of my children. I wont be answering the door to a cps worker unless i have a concrete answer to that question.

A malicious neighbor called the cps on me once. I answered the door. Once a person calls, they have to keep the case open for a mandatory 2months.

I find this an invasion of my privacy, and a waste of my time. They even came to my sons school and interviewed him without my consent. Fortunately our school psychologist was smart enough to be present in the interview.

The worker wanted to close the case immediately, but as i said, they have to keep it open for 2months.

I never received an official letter to say the case was closed, though i was told repeatedly it was. Am i on a computer somewhere because of one malicious neighbor?

I felt like i was at the complete mercy of the cps worker, (who was a nice person thank goodness)


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## Smithie

They even came to my sons school and interviewed him without my consent.










As I think I mentioned upthread, I was involved in a case this year where children were removed inappropriately - a preschooler and a newborn baby. They had a teenage sister who was removed for some small amount of cause, but could definitely have avoided removal if the family had been given access to outpatient mental health resources. Instead, they swooped in and took them all.

What the mom needed to do to get them back was complete a parenting class, go to counseling and get a letter from the counselor stating that she was not looney tunes, and present a clean and safe home when she was visited. She did those things easily. She also had to find a decent lawyer and an interpreter - I don't think either of those cost her money but she did need to look around a bit for them. It took her about four months to get the children back into her home - they spent two months with strangers and two months with a family friend.

Had she not opened the door for the home investigator that day, and instead contacted a lawyer immediately who could have arranged for a supervised inspection with a translator present, I don't think she would have had her children removed. Every case is different, but my resolve to keep my door closed and call my lawyer was greatly increased by her experience.


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## contactmaya

Having read through this thread, i suppose i would demand a warrant before opening the door. And following your example, i would call a lawyer.

When the cps came previously, someone else (my room mate) opened the door for them, so i did not have the chance to protect myself in this way.

I suppose the answer to my own question is, be aware of your rights, lest they be violated. I just find it hard to believe that ones rights could so easily be violated.


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## chiefmir

I work in a school (school psychologist, but I do testing, not counseling). Also a mom of 3. I think it is completely understandable and fine that DHS can come to school and interview a child without a family's consent.

Case in point... 5 years ago a 10 year old girl in school seemed off and on sad and getting more and more difficult to work with in school. Family/school contact, not much to work with, and her behavior wasn't awful or anything that set up huge red flags, just a kid who seemed to be "off" and not really herself. Family was appropriate with us, seemed glad that the school counselor was touching base with her, wanted extra help in math, etc. A few months go by, and a couple of disturbing things show up in her writng journal (one that she turns in to her teacher, so nothing private, she turns it in and knows it is being read) that hint at sexual abuse. The counselor talks to her (and then they come together to talk to me) and she says that her brother has been raping her for two years. And that her parents know about it. Her brother is 19 years old, living in the home, and she is afraid to go home... school ends in 3 hours. Mandated reporting, etc... a DHS worker comes out within a half hour, we already know from our 1st phone contact that the girl can't be sent home before they meet with her... long story short, they come out, the girl NEVER GOES HOME AGAIN. She goes directly to a therapeutic group home, then to a foster home (and that's all I know of for the next 2 years when she graduated from the school)... at which point her brother and BOTH PARENTS are in JAIL.

So, definitely the exception. Definitely NOT what I believe is happening in even 1 out of 1,000 cases. Not what is happening when an angry, crazy neighbor or right-wing friend calls DHS because breast feeding after 12 months makes them feel icky or because your house doesn't look like a magazine. But I still think about that kid all the time and I don't give a flying fudge if her parents feel that that it wasn't "fair" for the DHS worker to speak to their daughter without their permission. Because that conversation may have saved her life....it definitely saved her in a lot of other ways. And until the conversation happened, there was no way to know if that kid was being raped by her adult brother for 2 years with her parents knowledge or whether she was cosleeping with loving and misunderstood parents. Seems like a reasonable risk to take... and as a parent who would NEVER harm my kids, I know that some parents would and I'm willing to take some possible lumps to maybe do my tiny, ineffective bit to protect those kids who are already being abused by the people who should be protecting them.


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## contactmaya

But in this case there was a red flag, there was some evidence! In my case, none at all! Yes, a nasty neighbour called the cps on me (if you knew the full story, you would be disgusted, but its not relevant now), the cps worker came, and there was nothing to back up the allegations (it was of neglect, and they could see this wasnt the case)

Then interviewing a child without the consent of the parent- where do you draw the line? I am sorry, but without my consent, there is alot of things you CANNOT do to my children.

In the above case it would have been sufficient for the school psychologist to interview the child based on the CLEAR EVIDENCE presented by the child. Once there was more evidence of sexual abuse stemming from the talk with the psychologist, then the CPS could be called in, and then the police.

It turns out, i did give my consent to interview my son, by signing a long form, which i signed to appear co operative with a person who appeared, and did, have my family at her complete mercy.

She obtained my consent, but what she should have done, is inform the school that SOMEONE ELSE needed to present at the interview with my child. She didnt do that. It was the school psychologist, who knows me, and my child, and knows that i am a dedicated and loving parent, whose son has presented no symptoms or signs of abuse whatsoever, she was the one who demanded to be present at the interview.

It is one thing for a school employee, to talk to a child for whatever reason, and this happens all the time. It is another thing for someone with the power to take children from their parents to do so.


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## contactmaya

Neighbor was a mandated reporter by co incidence. She was also a very disrespectful and manipulative person in general. She had been rude to me once or twice, so i tried o ignore her, but then she would sweet talk my children (and offer them sugary food). One day, i just told her i didnt want her to speak to my children. She did not like that. She later knocked on my door and i opened it. She saw a living room with toys strewn over the floor. On these grounds, she called the cps, on the same day, so it was easy to make the connection. Since she was a mandated reporter, the cps came running. By then i had actually tidied up. But come on.....this is the sort of slippery slope we are talking about.

Someone vindictive+ cash bonus + one parent without the knowledge of or resources to protect their rights=children taken from a loving family, which is something they would never forget, and a form of abuse in itself.

I just wanted to know what is in place to protect families, refusal to answer the door seems to be about all there is. People who are very in favor of the cps, dont seem to know or want to answer that question.

I think when a problem is suspected, the police should be called, not the cps.


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## pek64

I have a cousin who married an alcoholic. They had three different foster kids, and adopted a child. That child was later removed from their home and placed in foster care because the child ended up in the hospital. I don't know the whole story, as I was a child, myself, at the time. I do know we never saw my cousin, his wife, or the child again, because my cousin was so embarrassed. Reading this page of this thread reminded me of what happened all those years ago. How did the alcoholism get missed? What happened to that little boy? I heard the adults talking about the alcoholism after the incident. I didn't know about it before, but they knew.

I don't think the cps system is working very well. But I don't know what can be done to fix it. There needs to be some way to protect children, but we must also protect good parents who are just out of the mainstream.

I've heard that if they have to get a warrent, you will be under surveillance for 6 months to a year, even if the allegations turn out to be false.


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## contactmaya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> I don't think the cps system is working very well. But I don't know what can be done to fix it. There needs to be some way to protect children, but we must also protect good parents who are just out of the mainstream.


Definitely.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> I've heard that if they have to get a warrent, you will be under surveillance for 6 months to a year, even if the allegations turn out to be false.


Wow, that is frightening. I forgot to make the point, that by the simple exercise of one's legal rights (and it appears there is no other way to protect your family), ie, demanding a warrant, that a parent is seen as bad. I bent over backwards to be accomodating to the cps worker, scared out of my wits of what she could do, having seen how one mandated reporter could exact her revenge on me because i told her not to speak to my children.


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## Smithie

I work in a school (school psychologist, but I do testing, not counseling). Also a mom of 3. I think it is completely understandable and fine that DHS can come to school and interview a child without a family's consent.

I understand that you were dealing with a very exceptional situation, and I also understand why you don't regret that in this particular case, agents of the government were permitted to interview a minor without her parents being present.

But that's not the way the law works, and for good reason. Until and unless a sufficient reason has been established to abrogate parental rights (and nothing a 10-year-old says or writes constitutes sufficient evidence in the absence of corroborating testimony or physical evidence), it is not appropriate for DHS or law enforcement personnel to interview a child without parental consent. If this had happened to my child, I would have sued the school district.

The appropriate thing to do in your situation was to report the incident (which you did) and for a DHS investigator to either go to the home and assess the situation, and/or take the child to a hospital to obtain physical evidence. If they feel the child is unsafe in the home after conducting a home visit, they can remove the child immediately. But nobody should ever have to send their kids to a public school under the implicit threat of never seeing them again.


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## Smithie

I've heard that if they have to get a warrent, you will be under surveillance for 6 months to a year, even if the allegations turn out to be false.

This varies hugely, depending on where you live and who happens to be assigned to your case.


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## Cyllya

Hmm, when I was abused, the only evidence to my knowledge was that a neighbor called (I suppose it may have been multiple neighbors? My step-dad blew up outdoors, so a variety of people probably heard me screaming), and a few days later, the school nurse called me in to ask a couple vague questions about the quality of my home life. I panicked and lied to her, she said I could always let her know if something was wrong, hint hint, and nothing ever came of it. I always assumed my parents never knew of this, and I would have preferred it that way. Can't say I feel bad for my poor disenfranchised parents.... Even though I would have lied either way, it would have totally defeated the point if my parents had to agree or even if they knew about it.

But it seems like the school psychologist should be there for that sort of thing as a matter of policy....


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## pek64

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> _I've heard that if they have to get a warrent, you will be under surveillance for 6 months to a year, even if the allegations turn out to be false.
> _
> 
> This varies hugely, depending on where you live and who happens to be assigned to your case.


Can you elaborate on this? By where you live, do you mean country or state? And are you saying the individual makes that decision, and it is not policy?

What I heard is the six months is policy in the US in PA, because cps has to pay for that process (getting a warrent), and they get federal funds for each six month contract they have, so you have to sign a six month contract so they can get the federal funds to replace what was paid to get the warrent.


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> (and nothing a 10-year-old says or writes constitutes sufficient evidence in the absence of corroborating testimony or physical evidence)


This is rather shocking to me, because if either one of my girls, at any age, described a physical act -- whether it was hitting, inappropriate touching, or rape, and said that someone had done this to her, I would believe her. Mind you, I'm talking about an actual description of what happened and not just the word "sex" or "rape;" if she did use one of these words I would definitely stop what I was doing and have her explain what this word meant to her.

So I honestly can't see why, if a 10 year old is telling her teacher or school counselor that she's being raped -- and is able to give an accurate definition of rape -- I can't see why she wouldn't be taken just as seriously as an adult would be. She has the right to report being the victim of a crime and to seek justice, irregardless of whether her parents give their permission.

And I say this as an "out of the mainstream" parent who has had CPS called on her twice without any case ever having been opened. I am definitely leery of people who seem to be too abnormally concerned about other people's kids and too eager to see abuse, even though I do understand that maybe it's not their fault that they're like that; maybe their own childhood has them convinced that abusive parents and abusive relationships are the norm and they just can't get past that. That said, I may feel sorry for them but I feel like people like that are toxic and I don't want them around me or my kids.

Still and yet, if a child of any age tells someone about criminal acts being committed against him or her, this child has the same right that any adult has to talk to the legal authorities. Hopefully the parents would feel that way, too, but even if they don't, the child is still a human being and still has the right.


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## Smithie

pek64: the policy you cite from PA is a nasty, unjust, extralegal mockery that a decent lawyer would chew up and spit out in court. It's something that bullies can use as threat when the people they are investigating don't agree to make their day easier by completely forfeiting their legal rights. It's not a law. It's just a policy, one that makes it easier for CPS workers to coerce families into signing things they shouldn't sign.

In other places, the standard length of time for keeping a case open often has nothing to do with whether or not a warrant was served, and it is always open to negotiation. But generally speaking, only people who can afford lawyers can successfully negotiate.

mammal_mama: I'd believe a ten-year-old as well, in the absence of a major mitigating factor such a documented history of mental illness or false allegations. But belief is not proof, and the job of CPS is to investigate allegations and obtain proof. Imagine that such an accusation were made against your husband by one of your daughters - do you want the school to allow your daughter to be interviewed without you there? To be whisked away to a foster home without anybody even coming out to interview YOU and ascertain if you were aware of the situation, or if there is an unknown mitigating factor such as your daughter having a mental illness or a history of abuse by somebody else that you have already discovered and reported? I'm not saying this child shouldn't have been taken into custody, I'm saying that a CPS worker could have protected the rights of both the child and the parents more effectively by proceeding in a different manner.


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## pek64

Even if a decent lawyer can get you out of it, who wants to risk having the children taken away in the meantime? It's all well and good to talk tough, but if someone had a child removed because of it....


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## mammal_mama

Smithie, I'd definitely want to be present at such an interview. But maybe I'm misunderstanding what you said before...were you saying that if the parents refused for their child to be be interviewed, the child should lose her right to report this crime?

I'm certainly not in favor of anyone's child just being whisked away -- I just have a hard time picturing my own children saying that something like this happened if it really didn't.


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## chiefmir

I'm not saying that the parents were never interviewed, in fact, I'm fairly certain that they were interviewed extremely heavily if they were eventually incarcerated. I'm actually fairly certain they were contacted THAT day, that afternoon, by the time the child should have gotten off the bus and was expected home. I don't think there is any concern that the child was "whisked away" without the mother or the father being asked if there were mitigating factors. The child was interviewed without parents being allowed to be there because there was some possible evidence (and yes, I believe it is fine to err on the side of the child's "word" here) that the parents may have been complicit in her abuse and may not have been able/willing to make give consent based on her best interests. The DHS worker had to know if it was safe for her to go home THAT AFTERNOON. For all they knew, she could have been killed by said brother. Or by the parents. Who knew? They needed to whisk her away somewhere for that night/weekend to buy time to give the mother and father time to explain those mitigating circumstances, were there some.

There weren't, obviously.

The parents' rights to decide if the child got interviewed or if they were in the room with her (or if someone else was (I don't honestly know if the school counselor was or if she was allowed to be or if the girl refused or what the situation was, just taht I wasn't asked to be) can't be as important as the girl's right to be allowed to have a safe place to be for the few hours it took to give the parents a chance to explain their mitigating circumstances if there wre some.

Again, I get that this is, by far, the more extreme end of the spectrum....but these are some of the kids that we are trying to protect, no? Not just the iffy, grey cases that are parenting style choices. But the kids chained to radiators in basements or starved to death, or raped by their brothers.


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## beedum

Hello all,

Haven't been able to get back online for a while, and found a lot of new posts. This is a topic I find very interesting. Apparently, there was questions as to my last post upthread as to why I would mention a friends adoption. I mentioned it because during that time in history it was widely and forcefully denied that children were being taken from teen mothers for no other reason than them being young single mothers. Although historically speaking we now know it is a factual occurance, it doesn't change the fact that while it was happening it was denied. Of course there were many loving homes they were adopted into, but does the end really justify the means?

As for being accused by apparently the "queen" of this site of being a right wing liberalist, or was it left wing, or was it a conservative?: I don't really remember or care. I don't put a lot of weight in any kind of political propaganda. I do respect those such as the Senator I mentioned upthread no matter what their political affiliations for standing up for those who cannot stand up for themselves. There doesn't have to be an elaborate plot, or secretive "conspiracy theory" to know that these things can and do occur, and that anywhere there is monetary incentive there is the possibility of abuse and extortion.

As for children being more likely to be abused while in the care of a foster family than in the general population (in their own homes), please see The National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect statistics on www.nrccwdt.org. This is an organization that reports without bias the incidents of child abuse and neglect for the sake of research, and education. It is not affiliated with any state agency. It sites in 1998 the likelihood for foster children to be abused sexually or otherwise 6 to 1. The numbers vary year by year, but it is consistently higher for children living in the system.

Is that because they were prior victims? Who is to say. That is the statistics. Considering many children are removed from their homes under questionable circumstances, I don't find those numbers comforting.

I am not against adoption in any way, but there are many instances where adoptions are "closed". This is proven to be detrimental to all parties: There are many documented psychological articles on this, if you go to your library you'll find TONS. A real "open" adoption for anyone familiar with the term is a different ballgame altogether. Being disclosed "facts" as an adoptive parent that have the possibility of being falsified, exagerated, or just plain made up doesn't really say much about the disclosure received. That is where my skepticism arises. That is not putting adoptive parents in a bad light, but the system charged with protecting all parties involved.

In light of all of these facts: I have only meant to enlighten unsuspecting parents as to what they may (or may not) be facing if a member of the "CPS" comes to their door. Something my mom used to tell me comes to mind. To keep peace, you have to be prepared to go to war. In other words, know your rights, and defend them. They're there for a reason. Have a great week everyone


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## Pookietooth

Quote:


> I am not against adoption in any way, but there are many instances where adoptions are "closed". This is proven to be detrimental to all parties: There are many documented psychological articles on this, if you go to your library you'll find TONS. A real "open" adoption for anyone familiar with the term is a different ballgame altogether. Being disclosed "facts" as an adoptive parent that have the possibility of being falsified, exagerated, or just plain made up doesn't really say much about the disclosure received. That is where my skepticism arises. That is not putting adoptive parents in a bad light, but the system charged with protecting all parties involved.


I actually know someone whose child was adopted, and the adoption closed without her (the birth mother's) consent. She was told it was an open adoption but that was a lie. She wasn't a teen, but was single. She grieves for her child every day.


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## contactmaya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chiefmir*
> 
> The parents' rights to decide if the child got interviewed or if they were in the room with her (or if someone else was (I don't honestly know if the school counselor was or if she was allowed to be or if the girl refused or what the situation was, just taht I wasn't asked to be) can't be as important as the girl's right to be allowed to have a safe place to be .


Just to clarify, having someone in the room during the interview is to protect the childs rights, as much as the parents. Otherwise, all you have is the word of the person doing the interviewing. There needs to be a witness to the interview to ensure its conducted properly.


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## zora1112

So if I'm understanding correctly CPS will only come if they have enough evidence to start with correct?


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zora1112*
> 
> So if I'm understanding correctly CPS will only come if they have enough evidence to start with correct?


No, they will come if someone reports a concern that leads them to think that there may be child abuse or neglect going on. They come to see whether there is actually any evidence of possible abuse or neglect. If they think there is sufficient evidence, they open a case. In my state, it seems that they only remove the children if they have reason to suspect that they're in immediate danger. In most cases in my state, an open case simply means that they will keep visiting, and providing counseling or other services, until such time as they feel assured that the children will be well taken care of.

And if they don't find any evidence of child abuse or neglect on that first visit, they don't even open a case. At least in my state.


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## zora1112

Mandadted 2 months?


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## contactmaya

In my state, they keep the case open for a mandatory 2 months irrespective of evidence found.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> No, they will come if someone reports a concern that leads them to think that there may be child abuse or neglect going on. They come to see whether there is actually any evidence of possible abuse or neglect. If they think there is sufficient evidence, they open a case. In my state, it seems that they only remove the children if they have reason to suspect that they're in immediate danger. In most cases in my state, an open case simply means that they will keep visiting, and providing counseling or other services, until such time as they feel assured that the children will be well taken care of.
> 
> And if they don't find any evidence of child abuse or neglect on that first visit, they don't even open a case. At least in my state.


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## zora1112

What state is that?


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## contactmaya

As far as i know, in New York State.

A person can call the cps for any reason, hopefully because they are truly concerned for the well being of the child. (sometimes calls are made maliciously). However, if you do not know where the person lives, im not sure what cps can do. You could call and ask them. If you feel a call is warranted, that is sufficient reason to call, whether you witnessed it or not. (as far as i know anyway) I mean, if you hear your neighbors abusing their kids, you would call both the police and the cps.

It sounds like you are concerned about children living near enough to you that you can hear them, but you dont know which apartment they live in, i would call cps and ask them. It is their job once they make the visit to compile evidence, not yours.


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## zora1112

Nnew York


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*


Well, in my state, there were two different reports made on us, three years apart. in both cases, we were told that no case was even opened. What they did was an assessment as to whether there was a need to open a case, not an investigation. So if no case is opened, no case can be left open.

Of course, I'm sure they still have some sort of a record of the calls and the visits. and it's possible that if the calls had been closer together, a case might have been opened simply because there were two calls close together.

I live in Missouri, though, and they don't seem to discriminate against you just because someone made a prior call. For us, one call was because we homeschool and my sister didn't think we were giving an adequate education, and one call was concern over a messy house.


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## mammal_mama

zora1112, as far as the two scenarios you mentioned, I would think that someone called and said, "A mother yelled at her child to shut up and come here!" -- I would think that if a social worker wen to that woman's home, things must be awfully slow at CPS.

As far as the child yelling "Don't bite me!" -- I don't know.


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## crunchy_mommy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> zora1112, as far as the two scenarios you mentioned, I would think that someone called and said, "A mother yelled at her child to shut up and come here!" -- I would think that if a social worker wen to that woman's home, things must be awfully slow at CPS.
> 
> As far as the child yelling "Don't bite me!" -- I don't know.


I agree. (And if I were that social worker, I would assume the "Don't bite me!" was directed at a sibling or something, if no one witnessed what happened.) Without any other information, neither of those events really sound like reasons to call CPS, nor like reasons for CPS to open a case or track them down. But I do realize something more may be going on that hasn't been communicated here.


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## zora1112

Because of homeschooling. That's not right.
I don't personally have any children yet. Miscarried so taking a break. It's just hard to not over hear somethings when your out and about. i guess every state is different though.


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## mammal_mama

IQuote:


> Originally Posted by *zora1112*
> 
> Because of homeschooling. That's not right.
> I don't personally have any children yet. Miscarried so taking a break. It's just hard to not over hear somethings when your out and about. i guess every state is different though.


I'm so sorry about your miscarriage! Having been through that experience, I know it's not fun.

But please don't let my stories scare you. CPS didn't come because we were homeschooling, but because my sister accused us of educational neglect. And while many homeschoolers do have to deal with concerned relatives who are worried about their children's educations and socialization, it's not all that common for those relatives to make a call to CPS. How involved CPS will get in educational neglect reports also highly varies from state to state. If you end up deciding to homeschool, you'll be able to find lots of information about educational requirements in your state and just make sure you're doing whatever you need to be doing to meet those requirements.

As far as the messy house report that was made on us, I was in a hurry earlier and neglected to add all the extenuating factors. We had been keeping chickens without bothering to get signatures from neighbors, because it's fairly common for people to keep chickens in our neighborhood, or to buy a live turkey or goose and keep it in their yard until they are going to use it in a meal.

Then one day, some city officials made a visit to our neighbor because he'd been buying old cars cheaply and taking them apart and selling the parts; he'd been doing it right out on the street and our street is not zoned for business.

So anyhow, the city officials noticed our free range chickens roaming around in our fenced-in yard and called animal control. And they came and just told dh that they had to take them; there wasn't even a chance to get into compliance because they said we should have been in compliance when we got them. The girls were crying and dh was very upset and started yelling. And someone felt like backup was needed and radioed the police.

One of the police officers felt very concerned when she looked through our open front door and noticed how messy our house was. Our girls had also been playing out in the dirt, digging in it and stuff, and were very dirty. And their hair hadn't been combed since the day before. She insisted that we were lying about them having been clean before they went out in the dirt that day, because she had children herself and they never got that dirty, so she felt sure that she was looking at several days of caked on dirt.

When the social worker came, she said she felt that the police officer was just overwhelmed by all the information she was taking in, about the chickens and so on. She determined that our home was a safe place for our girls, and that they were safe and there were no signs of abuse or neglect.

As you can see, these two situations are not exactly run of the mill or things that most families would need to be concerned about. Most people don't have such vindictive relatives, and there's not that much likelihood of a police officer being in your front yard on a day when your house just happens to be a total mess and your children just happens to be very dirty, and animal control just happens to be telling your very upset husband that he can't keep his birds.

And even if someone actually does make a report on you that CPS feels a need to look into (and for all I know, there could have been numerous other calls made on us by my vindictive sister that I know nothing about because no one ever felt any need to follow up on those calls), the most likely result is that a social worker will come and see that your children are safe, happy, and healthy and are not scared of you, and that social worker will tick off all the boxes that s/he needs to tick off and move on to a situation where some intervention is actually needed.


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## zora1112

Ah sounds like an overwhelming situation. Chickens seem fun though.
Thanks. it's been tough. If I had any kids though I think it would be a wonderful experience


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## contactmaya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> Well, in my state, there were two different reports made on us, three years apart. in both cases, we were told that no case was even opened. What they did was an assessment as to whether there was a need to open a case, not an investigation. So if no case is opened, no case can be left open.
> 
> Of course, I'm sure they still have some sort of a record of the calls and the visits. and it's possible that if the calls had been closer together, a case might have been opened simply because there were two calls close together.
> 
> I live in Missouri, though, and they don't seem to discriminate against you just because someone made a prior call. For us, one call was because we homeschool and my sister didn't think we were giving an adequate education, and one call was concern over a messy house.


Did you have the mandatory 2month business, where they keep checking on you for 2 months, and visit your childs school and ask all sorts of intrusive questions? Maybe that was just an 'assessment'. How did they conduct the assessment in your state?


----------



## mammal_mama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> Did you have the mandatory 2month business, where they keep checking on you for 2 months, and visit your childs school and ask all sorts of intrusive questions? Maybe that was just an 'assessment'. How did they conduct the assessment in your state?


In Missouri (in my experience), an assessment is just a short visit to the home where they walk through the house and chat in a non-intrusive way with the kids with the parents present, and, of course, ask the parent about issues related directly to whatever kind of call was made. The purpose of the assessment is to decide whether there is any evidence of child abuse or neglect. If they feel they have reason to suspect either abuse or neglect, then that is when they open a case and you get more visits.

In extreme cases where they feel the child's health and wellbeing is in imminent danger, they will remove the child, but CPS here is very knowledgeable and concerned about RAD (Reactive Attachment Disorder), so this only happens when they believe that separating the child from the parents is the lesser of two evils -- meaning, the child is likely to suffer greater harm than RAD if left with the parents.

If either of my children had been in school at the time that either of the calls were made, I imagine that the assessment might have included a visit to the school. I mean, I suppose schools can be accused of educational neglect, too -- but I'm not sure how it would really work for a school, since I assume they already get regular evaluations regarding how well they are meeting the needs of their students. With regard to the police officer's report about cleanliness, I'm sure they still would have needed to see the house, but I suppose they might also have wanted to check in with teachers to see what the girls' cleanliness and personal appearance was like every day at school.

Since we've always homeschooled up to this point, my only experience has been with them coming to my house, and they were not at all intimidating toward the children or me, and did not try to isolate my children from me. My overall impression of CPS in Missouri is that they really have a full plate and they don't want to spend any more time than necessary on any family that is clearly doing okay without them.


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## mammal_mama

Quote: Originally Posted by *zora1112* 

"Ah sounds like an overwhelming situation. Chickens seem fun though.
Thanks. it's been tough. If I had any kids though I think it would be a wonderful experience"

Here's hoping and believing you'll get to enjoy that experience very soon!

About the chickens, yes, they are a lot of fun and we really miss them. We actually hope to start caring for chickens again in the hopefullly not too distant future, but want to make sure we have everything in order this time before bringing the chickens home.


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## aunti

i hope someone in this thread from canada is still active? i have a question. i am very worried.

thank you


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## homeschoolingmama

What is your question?


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