# babies who want/need to cry?



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

anyone believe there may just be some babies that need to cry before they sleep?

it doesn't matter what i do for ds, nothing soothes him, he just cries and sometimes screams. (rejects pacifier, nursing, rocking gently, etc) i can eventually get him to sleep bouncing on the fitball (adrenalin junkie + poor sleep assoc = sad mama), but he is discontent (at least) until he passes out. is this how babies fall asleep?

i thought the only times at sleep time babies would cry was if they were CIO. it seems my kid is CIO in arms 4 naps a day and one bedtime. yes, better that it is in-arms but i just don't think he really is this miserable or that it was meant to be this way.

we are missing the sense of "rightness" in our life.

nak


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## justthinkn (Apr 11, 2008)

I've heard interesting discussions agreeing with that idea in two places - askmoxie's blog and something called "The Aware Baby." They take it in two different directions - maybe one would fit your baby? Neither are CIO advocating.








DD has never slept peacefully either - for us the swaddle was a lifesaver, but still she flexes and fusses at the breast until she finally just drops. I hope things get better for you as baby matures!


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I hope this doesn't go against the guidelines of the site, but I do think some babies need a little cry before they drift off. That doesn't mean CIO--I just always thought with DD. that when she was an infant, she only had a a few ways of expressing herself, and crying is one of them.

Sometimes, I am so tired that I could cry! And my husband holding me in his arms doesn't make me any less tired and cranky. And in fact, sometimes, it might annoy me and I might want some space to stretch out and find my comfort. Why should a baby not have those same feelings?

Now, that said--I think fitful crying is different than screaming. If my baby is screaming, I would think that they had gas or some kind of discomfort. Fiftul crying is more what I associate with just trying to get comfortable and get to sleep.

I think it's great to be responsive to your baby when they are crying--certainly snuggle them or nurse, but if you see it doesn't help or is agitating them, trying laying them down and patting their back, gently stroking their head, saying shhhh, etc, or even just sitting next to them in the room for a bit with them and they might nod off. You probably do all of this.

All babies are different so you just need to try to understand what your baby is telling you. The only other advice I can give you is to set the stage for sleep much earlier than actual nap or bedtime--try to be really careful as far as stimulation so that it's easier for him to wind down. Have you tried the bathtime, lavender scented massage pre-bedtime routine? That might help him relax.


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## zoeyzoo (Jul 6, 2007)

Sometimes babies cry for medical reasons or discomfort. Dr. Sears' site has a list of possibilities to try. I believe they cry to communicate


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Sometimes babies cry a lot and there is not much you can do except hold them and build the trust up so they know you are there. I found that dd fell asleep much better when I kept the lights out and the noise down. I think that it is important to hold babies even when they cry a lot in order to build that trust. Is there someone else who can take a turn with the baby?


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## schreiberwriter (Aug 3, 2005)

Maybe try putting baby to sleep earlier to prevent "so tired I could just cry." Watch baby carefully for signs of sleepiness.

But what do I know? My toddler cried before going to sleep tonight because he was too tired. Lots of good ideas, but hard to practice.


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## FreeLove (Aug 16, 2007)

I know exactly what you mean. My thread on my Lull-A-Baby experience was removed because OP were taking my words to literally and thought I was using CIO. But hey I totally understand that crying is also a method to communicate. I was just so happy to share something that was gentle and effective for me hoping some other mama like yourself could benefit from. Let me just if you have gotten any wrong signals.

*Just to clarify my Dd was not left to CIO I was with her trying to console her doing everything to make her feel comfortable if and when she got "upset" but I wasn't going to fall back on her "nursing to sleep crutch".


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

He isn't in pain, and not physical discomfort. I tried those roads. It's just an escalation of fatigue because I can't get him to settle and he can't get himself to sleep and he winds further and further up in frustration and fatigue.

What happens is, he wakes happy, feeds, giggles, smiles and interacts nicely. Then suddenly he grizzles. I have tried all kinds of things (darkened room, music, nursing, whatnot) but it all goes the exact same way regardless - the grizzles turn into cries, the cries escalate until it is a drone of monotonous crying with a few big wails thrown in now and again that would convince an onlooker he was in pain. He's not. He's just crying REALLY hard because I won't get out of the rocking chair and bounce his brains apart the way he likes it cos my back is ruined and I need to sit before I fall down. So he protests the lack of big movement that jars him to sleep, or numbs his desire for breasts he can't have (too much milk, makes him hurl, he rejects them yet wants them, you can see the battle he is having, hence why I offer my finger)

No matter WHAT I do, this happens. I was sent this article, which is my take on colic (I don't believe colic is pain in babies): Sleep remedies

I tried Aletha Solter's crying in arms (really, what choice do I have?) and all it has done is make me tune him out. I've seriously, for my own mental health, seemed to have numbed to his crying, I blank it out to survive it. So I'm sitting in my rocking chair with a screaming baby in my arms staring blankly at the wall saying the occasional "I know, my darling" and a little pat on the back. It just isn't right.

He is crying to communicate, sure, he's saying he's uncomfortable, tired and sad that he can't nurse to sleep, is what I think. And he doesn't know how else to get to sleep. And I don't know how else to get him to sleep that doesn't entail putting him down (tried that too, but only with my finger in his mouth, otherwise having him crying, even though I'm patting him, feels too much like CIO).

I've gone psycho on forums, asking questions about this but I know there is no answer. I'm stuck here in this. I'm physically wrecked from the 12 hours a day slinging, and the cosleeping with constant bfing so I have to contort myself in bed also.

I wonder if we'd have been better off if we never used the fitball. Maybe we should wean him off it. But I really need something to replace it with. Or am I to just hold him while he cries until he is beaten into submission by it? Isn't that a form of CIO in itself?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

It sounds really hard Calm. I personally would suggest just numbing out while he is in arms. Mine only cried a little bit (like a few hours/night for the first few nights). If you can't do anything to stop it, and/or if you are too tired to continue doing what would stop it, you have to take care of you too. I sat up in the dead of the night, holding and patting and murmuring absently in her ear while I surfed the internet. Gotta stay sane, and you are in it waaaay deeper right now than I have ever experienced.


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## FreeLove (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *schreiberwriter* 
Maybe try putting baby to sleep earlier to prevent "so tired I could just cry." Watch baby carefully for signs of sleepiness.

But what do I know? My toddler cried before going to sleep tonight because he was too tired. Lots of good ideas, but hard to practice.

Exactly the book I was reading says bring the baby to bed "sleepy" but awake at the first signs of fatigue. Not when their already so tired that they get upset and are "so tired I could just cry."

Some of my DD's cues for fatigue is Scratching behind hers ears, rubbing eyes, yawning and her play slows to almost lethargic staring but still attentive.

I know exactly how you feel, my love to you. And for us singing and shushing did work but we had to do it till it worked and my voice was about to crack. Oh and this is kinda silly but when I put a pacifier in my own mouth and make those sucking noise it really calms my DD down or she ends up smiling at how ridiculous I look.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Today I tried and really believed I'd nail it by getting him earlier. I caught his signs promptly and went to the darkened room with no stimulation and put him down and patted him. Fine for about five minutes (five minutes of me thinking YAY, this is gonna WORK!). Then the grizzles. I stuck my finger in his mouth, another five glorious minutes. Crying then, getting really p!ssed too so I picked him up and did the usual, bounced him in front of the computer, but this time in a half sling (I only used one side of the hugabub, for easy removal). No good, he was squirmy (but not crying) and horrendous so I stuck a boob in, all at the same time! This time, bingo, fell asleep. I layed him down and for 15 minutes, relished the freedom from the weight of him (he's a big boy for his age) but because of his inability to sleep outside of trampolining in a sling, that's all I got.

I am now sitting here, he is asleep in the sling as I constantly bounce - if I stop, he wakes. I am in so much pain, I'm afraid it will be merely days before I'll have to resort to him crying himself to sleep in my arms.

I can't do this anymore.


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## eggsandpancakes (Oct 16, 2007)

Have you tried a swing turned up to "launch baby into orbit" speed?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
I am in so much pain, I'm afraid it will be merely days before I'll have to resort to him crying himself to sleep in my arms.

I can't do this anymore.

So do it, resort to him crying in your arms, I say. You have a crier, you don't know why, you've tried everything. He may be in physical pain, emotional pain, who knows why he is crying. If you've done elimination diet etc etc yada yada and nothing has worked (I noticed your other thread) you have to just try to live through it the best you can, yk? It sounds like you are at the end of your rope and exhausted and I have much empathy even just from my limited experience of dealing with a babe who cried and who I was unable to console.

There are two people in this equation, and you don't want to push yourself beyond your limits here, yk? You give what you can give, bounce as long as you are able, and then when your body hurts or you feel like you are losing your mind, hold him in your arms and surf the net, get into a good book, something. Gotta just stay sane through it and one day it will be part of the story of his infancy. "Oh you cried and cried as a young baby! We couldn't figure out why! I just used to hold you in my arms for hours, you were inconsolable." There are worse things... much worse, than not bouncing yourself into oblivion to try to keep him content, yk?

Good luck mama! I know we've had our differences but I feel for you on this one.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I found out with my dd that she needed to be alone to fall asleep. I know that goes against a lot of AP philosophy, but there it is. If I stayed with her and tried to parent her to sleep, she would cry. If I gave her a kiss and layed her down and walked away, she would usually give out a couple of cranky whines before staring out the window and falling asleep. I'm not suggesting that you CIO, but maybe he needs a little space and less help. I know that very few babies are like my daughter, but I like to bring it up in these discussions because it didn't occur to me for quite awhile to try this, since my son was a baby who screamed if I even thought of setting him down so I could pee







.


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## Sweetiemommy (Jul 19, 2005)

Just remember, all babies cry! I remember thinking that if I did things "perfectly" that my baby wouldn't cry, or that there was a solution or way to stop the crying, but that is not true. Sometimes babies cry for reasons unknown to us and I think that is okay. Please remember that if you are feeling "unhinged" that it is okay to put him in a safe place while you regain your composure. I think that babies can feel our distress and that holding or bouncing to the point of misery isn't good for either of you. With that said, I know this is a hard time and remember to do what feels right for the two of you and not what is right for Dr. Sears or anyone else. You have your heart in the right place and are doing everything the best that you can, it is hard/exhausting work taking care of babies, there is no magical method (AP or CIO) that will make a baby easier. It is all very very hard, but also short lived and worthwhile. This will be a distant memory before you know it, I promise. Just take it one night at a time, these things often resolve themselves, we just amuse ourselves by trying different things sometimes.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I missed your last post. I agree with thismama.


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## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

I used to feel that way about my son sometimes. He had colic when he was an infant and would cry most of the time. However, before bedtime he was especially cranky and would just cry endlessly. It was a very tired, frustrated cry. Eventually he'd fall asleep after tiring himself out. I would never leave him to cry alone though. It seemed counterproductive and really just kind of wrong. I always held him, nursed him or rubbed his back when he was having his spells. It was a long year







:


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## sahmama_12 (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
So do it, resort to him crying in your arms, I say. You have a crier, you don't know why, you've tried everything. He may be in physical pain, emotional pain, who knows why he is crying. If you've done elimination diet etc etc yada yada and nothing has worked (I noticed your other thread) you have to just try to live through it the best you can, yk? It sounds like you are at the end of your rope and exhausted and I have much empathy even just from my limited experience of dealing with a babe who cried and who I was unable to console.

There are two people in this equation, and you don't want to push yourself beyond your limits here, yk? You give what you can give, bounce as long as you are able, and then when your body hurts or you feel like you are losing your mind, hold him in your arms and surf the net, get into a good book, something. Gotta just stay sane through it and one day it will be part of the story of his infancy. "Oh you cried and cried as a young baby! We couldn't figure out why! I just used to hold you in my arms for hours, you were inconsolable." There are worse things... much worse, than not bouncing yourself into oblivion to try to keep him content, yk?

Good luck mama! I know we've had our differences but I feel for you on this one.









: Its not like your putting him alone in some room to scream his brains out. Your there holding him and doing your best. Your still building trust even if you can't figure out what he is trying to say. Kids appreciate your efforts I believe even that young. I don't always know why my toddler is frustrated but when I hold him and just listen even when its not helping I always get the feeling he knows I'm trying.

Just do what you can do. Don't beat yourself up. Good luck.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

I agree with thismama, also if he likes bouncing, do you have a bouncy chair ? i used to use my foot to do the bouncing ds liked to fall asleep with the bouncy chair he loved it, he wasnt to close to me being agitated by the closeness and he had the bouncing

a swing might work as well


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## sahmama_12 (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
I found out with my dd that she needed to be alone to fall asleep. I know that goes against a lot of AP philosophy, but there it is. If I stayed with her and tried to parent her to sleep, she would cry. If I gave her a kiss and layed her down and walked away, she would usually give out a couple of cranky whines before staring out the window and falling asleep. I'm not suggesting that you CIO, but maybe he needs a little space and less help. I know that very few babies are like my daughter, but I like to bring it up in these discussions because it didn't occur to me for quite awhile to try this, since my son was a baby who screamed if I even thought of setting him down so I could pee







.

My first son I had to set on the bed and lay down beside him. I couldn't talk or touch him but then he'd drift off. I had to be there but I had to be silent. It was weird and like you say it took a long time to figure it out. Quite a few months spent trying to figure out what method wouldn't result in fussing and crying. My new baby is the complete opposite. He spends alot of the day in the sling cause it's the only place he'll nap. My first hated the sling with all his being. Every child is different. It'll take some doing but maybe with time you'll figure out a sleep solution that'll work for your LO.


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## baturay (Jan 15, 2006)

With that kind of crying your baby is doing, I have to ask...have you verified it's not a food allergy? A reaction to something you are eating? Have you done an elimination diet?

Holding and comforting a child while he cries in your arms is not CIO. Sometimes they do just need to cry, but it's still important to be there for them should they need you. I think of how my oldest will get so upset sometimes that she really doesn't want me to even look at her, but if I was to leave the room, she'd be upset about that too. So, I stay as close as I can and let her know that I'm there for her. She's not alone.

Best of luck Calm as you work through this hard time.


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## bottomsup (Jul 6, 2007)

Yes, ti may be you have, as a PP mentioned, a baby who needs to "release tension" before sleeping.

Or that he is just over stimulated by you holding him. Try a couple of the suggestions here, see what works. And he is very young, so likely all this will pass.

Good luck!


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

My newborn doesnt take a pacifier, and splutters with disgust and anger if i offer him the breast/he latches on if he is not hungry, but tired. He just cries louder/choking/screaming. What has worked (we need it less now), is the vibrator on the bouncer. That will immidiately comfort him when he's tired.He just goes to sleep instantly. Now he is 2m, and usually doesnt need it. Sometimes, he will even nurse to sleep (at night). My first born always nursed to sleep.

To the poster, try the vibrator on the bouncer, it might work.

Maya


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## lindsayjean (Jun 17, 2006)

I haven't read the responses so I apologize if someone already said this, but my thinking is maybe your LO is overtired? I read some research that said that you should be putting baby to sleep BEFORE they get overtired- so in a newborn that was on or before 2 hrs of awake time (you get to know your own child I think). If you go too long they get overtired and are MUCH MUCh harder to put to sleep.

I am very anti- CIO, but my DD has fussed and screamed in my arms before and I think that is VERY VERY different than screaming while alone in a crib. At least she knows i am there for her!! In those times I'll just bounce, rock, swing, walk... try whatever until she eventually settles down.

You'll figure out what works for this child... they are all so unique!!


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## KimPM (Nov 18, 2005)

For a short while when DS was very young, I would put him in the the carseat carrier, then hold the carseat on top of the clothes dryer and turn it on the "no heat" setting. Sometimes this would help him get to sleep when nothing else worked.


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## FreeLove (Aug 16, 2007)

I just thought of something I read about colic. Something about securing baby in the car seat and putting car seat on top of the dyer and turning it on but don't leave baby unattended. I guess the white noise combined with the tumbling can sooth the baby. Try that maybe it'll work. You're in my thoughts, hang in there.


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## megviolet (Feb 6, 2007)

Lizzy cries too. It doesn't matter if i rock her, music on, music off, daddy rocks her, i nurse her, in bed, out of bed, in sling... etc etc etc. When she realizes that she is going to sleep she starts to cry and if i stop the process and get her playing she will be happy again.
There are a few things that work (most of the time) for us.

Firstly, nursing. Either in the chair and then being carried to bed or in bed after she has fussed enough to allow me to lay her in the bed and nurse her.

Secondly, and the most important is that i have learned (only recently, at 1 yr old) that i need to put her to sleep before she has shown me any sings of being tired. So i mostly go by the clock








Once she has been awake for 4.5 hours in the morning i get her ready for a nap. Every night right at 8 i start rocking her to sleep regardless of what state she seems to be in. This usually works... and liek i said it's only recently that i figured this out so maybe it's a coincidence nad is just a developmental stage she has outgrown.

The other thing that is most helpful is putting soothing music on and rocking her while showing her pictures on the computer. The music puts her to sleep and the pictures trick her into thinking that we are still playing and disguise from her tha ti am trying to get her asleep.

I haven't done any research on this but i feel like sometimes she wants to cryto release some of her feelings from the day and unwind a bit... still i do my best to not let her cry... when she does i pretty much am like you described... tuned out, patting her back. She takes a lot in during the day and i think she just has trouble transitioning to a relaxed mindframe and shutting off her brain.

good luck, i hope you find the help you need. And don't feel bad if you do just cry in arms, sometimes you don't have a choice. babies cry!


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## bellacymom (Apr 3, 2008)

YES YES YES! My dd2 HAD to cry herself to sleep for the first few months. She would do it no other way. I would hold her nurse her rock her sing to her do everything and she STILL cried herself to sleep every night. My dad said every time she would scream like that that she was just "exercising her lungs" and you know I think he may be right.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Me too Calm....I posted about it in the LWAB forum, CIO in arms?!?! I hate hate hate it but can't see what else to do for her. She is not in pain, during her awake time she is happy and smiley, it's just when I try to help her get to sleep. Sigh. It is VERY taxing. And yes, she is also a movement junkie. So when she wakes up in the middle of the night, she wants to be walked/bounced around the house. I did that for 3 months, and I'm nearly dead from sleep deprivation. So now I stay in bed, comforting her in every way I can think of, but she cries. And screams. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. And the worst part is when people say how lovely co-sleeping is, you can just roll over and nurse them back to sleep....yada yada. Yeah right. I'm going to try to wear her all day tomorrow and see if that makes a difference. Maybe less over all stimulation? I don't know. I'll try anything (except CIO) at this point.


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## mamaveggie (Mar 24, 2007)

This is how my first dd was. I tried everything, but she would just cry. The crying jags eventually got shorter and by 1 year they were pretty much gone. Hang in there mama.


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## Irish (Jun 3, 2007)

We've been through much the same thing with our youngest DD. The first several months was just trial and error and we went through MANY stages of this where different things worked for us. Some of the longer term solutions that helped us were:

-I took a 'break' for half an hour to an hour before I started the bedtime routine with DD - DH would walk/play/read with her. It did a world of good for my own sanity and patience levels. I also think they can sense your stress/moods so I believe it kept us both much calmer
-wearing her during the day for extended periods always kept her more relaxed overall
-at bedtime we incorporated baby massage and playing the same soft music CD every night so it became a sleep cue
-giving DD a probiotic daily seemed to really help her little digestive system and she seemed MUCH less gassy/reflux after a few days
-we kept stimulation to a minimum in the hour before bed, dimmed lights etc.

There were times when standing in the bathroom with the shower running and fan on worked magic, other times the exercise ball, sometimes nursing, rocking or walking. Like the PP's said, only try as much as your sanity and physical self can allow, sitting and holding and comforting your LO is NOT going to damage them and it'll keep you in a better place to work through these tougher times. It does get vastly easier with time as you build trust and their little bodies, digestive systems, teething and milestones get further apart.

Hang in there!


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## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, my kids have all been like that to some extent. My 2nd cried all the time, no matter what, and bedtime was no exception. I agree that they cry to try to communicate something-but I also think sometimes they dont even know what they want! I do think something was wrong with my dd, and still is, but I dont know what, I probably wont ever know (shes almost 6 now), so I did what I could to try to calm her but nothing would work. After 9 months of trying, I put her in a crib and discovered that, for some reason, she'd only cry for a minute or two and then crash on her own. I dont know why but...oh well. The others just outgrew it over time.

If I get frustrated with the crying and nothing working, I WILL put the baby down and walk away for a few minutes (or hand him/her to dad). Getting frustrated wont help the situation, it only makes it worse. I've actually been surprised a few times coming back and finding them calmed down or that they will finally calm down when I pick them up (I think they forget why they were crying to begin with and are just happy to be held again, lol)


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## Nanethiel (May 21, 2008)

Dear Calm,

When I was reading your post I was reminded of my own son. He would cry no matter what we tried, and we ended up carrying him over our shoulders for hours and/or bounce on the trampoline with him over our shoulders until he would fall asleep. It was extremely exhausting and sad.

Please hear me out, I agree with a previous poster that it could be food related. I saw that you are breastfeeding.

I don't want to bore you with our long story, so here goes the short version: After going on an elimination diet my son's crying stopped within 2 days! His character came through, he started making funny faces, laughing and giggling. He was a different child.

I know you're saying that you don't believe in "colic" being a hurting child, but I feel as if your child could be hurting. Please perhaps just give an elimination diet a try for 2 or 3 weeks. If you don't see an improvement, then fine.

Before I forget it - I can tell you from my own experience that even if a child is happy and bouncy when awake, and then is having difficulties going to sleep it _CAN_ be food related. It happened with my son (he's 6.5 months now) when I introduced soy at one point. He would be his usual self, no crying during wake time, but he started having such a hard time with naps and going to sleep. He'd wake up crying after 30 minutes, sleep restlessly, etc. I removed the soy again and he went back to going to sleep without crying (still have to rock him, but that's a different topic altogether *smile*), sleeping 2 hour naps again, long stretches at night..

I really believe that a lot of the sleep "issues" and other crying is food related (what mama eats and comes through breastmilk, or what's in formula).

I know you've tried almost everything else, if not everything else. Please give it a try and see if it makes a difference for your child. I can assist you if you have questions about a diet like that - I've been doing it since he was a month old (more than 5 months now). (I have allergies myself which is also a different story, but at the same time related to his "reactions").

Much love and hugs to you and your little one!

Shanti


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## 1hautemama (Mar 5, 2006)

Our babes are the same age, and I am going through the same thing, mama. DD2 and DD3 are just 20 months apart, and when DH is at work I feel as though my existence is SO. VERY. INTENSE. I try this trick with myself at night, when fatigue is most acute: If LO decides this will be another marathon night, it WILL be ok. We will watch a movie together, I will have a glass of wine, or three







. We will camp out in the living room, nurse constantly, and watch Jimmy Kimmel, and doze on the couch. It will be OK.

Sometimes this trick works wonders on my mental state. Sometimes, LO decides to sleep instead, and we miss out on Jimmy Kimmel. Hang in there mama.


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## jamiew (Oct 3, 2007)

I think most babies stay awake longer than they mean to, then they're too tired to just drift off to sleep quietly (by whatever means), they find themselves in a weird state, and it makes them upset.

Some babies have to blow off some steam, or stress, or anxiety before they can sleep.

I'm still trying to figure out some of that with our little one, and she's 14 months old.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Shanti - I started from his birth on a VERY strict diet. I followed the one that says no tomato, no dairy or its constituents, no brassicas, no this no that, no NOTHIN' basically. I had oats for breakfast and carrots and a few other things but they were pretty difficult times trying to find a hungry mama something to eat! When he was 6/7 weeks old, I introduced tomato and dairy. No change. He was already doing this for weeks, and it didn't make him do it more or less. If you have a link or something I will take a look though, it is always possible I overlooked something. But my gut is telling me his crying is related to inability to nurse, which may be related to discomfort, but not diet, I think it is structural (his palate perhaps). I am going to an ear/nose/throat specialist soon, I am getting the referral today.

Christine, your post made me smile. I will try that (although, it is the days that are hard here, the nights are ok, oddly), although how do you watch TV with the baby crying? Cos mine generally won't nurse unless hungry. He WANTS to, hence he starts getting frustrated and screaming, but he just won't nurse to sleep, he gets milk and it makes him too full. Sometimes he tries anyway, poor little tike, and struggles and struggles only to puke it all back up. I finally learned that babies are very clever, and they cannot "overeat", they WILL puke if necessary. Unfortunately, people medicate overeaters who then puke to reset, thinking they have reflux when reflux is actually quite a rare problem.

Ci finally nursed to sleep last night for bedtime (in the rocking chair). He did it twice yesterday, the first time I dared to put him into the cot and he woke immediately (usually naps in the sling). Had to resettle by bouncing on the fitball. He really wants to suck though, and won't take a dummy, keeps lunging for the breast and then screaming (he has the nipple in his open/screaming mouth, but won't suck, if I force the issue, he gets REALLY shrill).

I'm convinced it's the "I want to nurse to sleep but can't and mama isn't bouncing my cares away" that is the problem. Cos when he _will_ take the breast, even at his usual witching hours, it is magnificent, just like the dreams of mama and baby as he drifts peacefully into sleep.

I will have his palate checked however, cos for two nights now he is either out-eating his requirements overnight, or he has another issue cos he pukes out of his nose and really frightens himself, but he doesn't know how else to settle in the wee hours so he keeps boobing and boobing and boobing until he pukes or falls asleep, sometimes both. He eats more overnight than during the day, I reckon. (we cosleep)


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## Kealli (Dec 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *megviolet* 
Lizzy cries too. It doesn't matter if i rock her, music on, music off, daddy rocks her, i nurse her, in bed, out of bed, in sling... etc etc etc. When she realizes that she is going to sleep she starts to cry and if i stop the process and get her playing she will be happy again.
There are a few things that work (most of the time) for us.

Firstly, nursing. Either in the chair and then being carried to bed or in bed after she has fussed enough to allow me to lay her in the bed and nurse her.

Secondly, and the most important is that i have learned (only recently, at 1 yr old) that i need to put her to sleep before she has shown me any sings of being tired. So i mostly go by the clock








Once she has been awake for 4.5 hours in the morning i get her ready for a nap. Every night right at 8 i start rocking her to sleep regardless of what state she seems to be in. This usually works... and liek i said it's only recently that i figured this out so maybe it's a coincidence nad is just a developmental stage she has outgrown.

The other thing that is most helpful is putting soothing music on and rocking her while showing her pictures on the computer. The music puts her to sleep and the pictures trick her into thinking that we are still playing and disguise from her tha ti am trying to get her asleep.

Yes! Oh my gosh we have the same babies! He is so tired but fights so hard... then if I sit him up on my lap he smiles and laughs thinking okay, time to play! I used to be so not into a routine... following baby's cues. I'm realizing if I actually wait till he yawns or rubs his eyes I am in trouble. The past few days I'm paying a little more attention to the clock and it seems to be working. Horray! This morning I did that and he went down for his nap so easily. Only like.. 5 minutes of rocking and we were able to go up into the bed.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

ihave to admit to clock watching too now. he had such subtle tired signs that i missed them.


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## Nanethiel (May 21, 2008)

Oh my, I hear you. I'm often hungry, too!

It's basically a diet that at first only consists of rice, rice based foods, green and yellow squash, organic/range fed turkey (which I don't do since I'm a vegetarian), potatoes and sweet potatoes, olive oil (they tell you canola, but my son was reacting to that so I switched to olive which is okay for him), salt and pepper. Some people do chicken also. I think I read about it first on Dr. Sears website. I even had to stop my prenatals since he was reacting to those (I have finally found a hypoallergenic multivitamin I can use!). They say pears and diluted pear juice is okay, but I can't have that either since I am extremely sensitive to fructose (have you ever heard about that? it's ridiculous







)

Here's a link: THE ELIMINATION DIET

Later on, when the child has no reactions anymore, you start introducing one food at the time, every 4 days or so.

It might be interesting for you to know that some of the worst reactions my son had (refusing to nurse, hours of crying, followed by "over"nursing at night, followed by projectile vomiting (it kept coming and coming!) at night) were from carrots and avocados that I had eaten. I thought that I was on a strict diet! But in order for my son to be symptom free and to be able to continue to breastfeed I have been on rice, green and yellow squash, olive oil, sea salt and once or twice a week potatoes for almost 6 months now.

I'm glad you trust your intuition and that you're going to go see a specialist. I truly and wholeheartedly hope that you find your answers. Big







to you and your little one.

Shanti









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
Shanti - I started from his birth on a VERY strict diet. I followed the one that says no tomato, no dairy or its constituents, no brassicas, no this no that, no NOTHIN' basically. I had oats for breakfast and carrots and a few other things but they were pretty difficult times trying to find a hungry mama something to eat! When he was 6/7 weeks old, I introduced tomato and dairy. No change. He was already doing this for weeks, and it didn't make him do it more or less. If you have a link or something I will take a look though, it is always possible I overlooked something. But my gut is telling me his crying is related to inability to nurse, which may be related to discomfort, but not diet, I think it is structural (his palate perhaps). I am going to an ear/nose/throat specialist soon, I am getting the referral today.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

mommy2abigail, how did things turn out with your change of tactics?

Shanti, thanks for the link. I will admit being pretty frightened of such a tight diet, esp for two weeks (to make sure it is all eliminated from the body). I'd do it in a heart beat if it was for a few days. But for two weeks, I must be honest and say I can't see it happening. I'm REALLY hungry, and losing weight very fast, which for me is not good as I don't want to become underweight again, I have a problem with gaining weight. So breakfast would be a bowl of rice or millet, squash and potatoes for lunch and lamb or turkey with squash and potatoes for dinner. I then have three other meals I need to eat, so I guess I just repeat those? I need 5 to 6 _full_ meals a day and about three snacks. I don't lose weight if I eat like that.

I'll see the ENT and if he/she can't find anything wrong there then I'll seriously consider it.


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## Nanethiel (May 21, 2008)

I hear you on that, too. I've always been pretty skinny, underweight a few times in my life so far, too. I lost weight quickly after the pregnancy and got to the point where I did not want to loose anymore. I was trying to gain weight again as I was starting to worry about my milk supply. I managed to gain weight on this strict diet! I just eat lots. Lots of the same, but lots. And lots of olive oil. I top everything with it. Also, you can get creative - my most favorite 'dish' is zucchini bread that my wonderful hubby makes for me every other day. It's sweet (xylitol, I can't have sugar, drives me crazy), and I snack on it all the time in between the meals, and/or take it with me when I go out so that I never go hungry anywhere (that's the worst!).

Not trying to convince you to do something you are not comfortable with - just letting you know that IMO 2 weeks can pass very quickly, having been on this stuff for more than 5 months! If you want to do it, I have faith in you that you can! And, you might see results quicker than that, who knows.. took only 2 days with my munchkin.

Much love to you. And good luck with the upcoming appointment. Please keep us updated!

Shanti


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## mamavegan (Nov 30, 2006)

I haven't read every single post. I see that you sling him. Have you tried slinging him and taking a walk? Sometimes that was the only way we could get our DS to go to sleep if he was over -tired. He would have the stimulation of bouncing (to a lesser degree) and have a ton of things to look at until he finally gives up and passes out. Hopefully the outdoor surroundings would relax him or at least distract him, as well.

/hugs


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## mchalehm (Feb 5, 2007)

I'm sure you've tried everything--but when my daughter was a newborn she hated to be held when she was tired. She slept great if we put her down (in the bassinet, on our bed, whatever) but cried if we didn't. Some babies need a little space.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Shanti, how do you make zucchini bread if you can't have anything. Do you use rice flour? So I can put sugar (or I prefer maple syrup or another natural sweetener) and use oils? It didn't mention that in the article. I love zucchini bread! Although it does have eggs in it usually. Do you have a recipe?









I'm hoping DS is a space baby and that's the problem, but so far he protests when not in arms. I'm getting a lullabub which are things you attach to the cot legs to rock the cot (it has four settings, rock, car, boat and womb), and I'm hoping motion junkie here stays put on the cot with that. Otherwise I'm mince meat. I'm also buying an ergo today. I look forward to back carrying days, cos this frontal carrying is very bad for the back, and mine has just about had it.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Poor little sod falls asleep in the HaB face into my chest, it looks very uncomfortable. But he wants to be near the boobs, and he even tries to suck my chest.







It may all rectify itself when he can nurse to sleep and my supply isn't drowning him.


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## baturay (Jan 15, 2006)

Janine, I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before, but for the sake of throwing out all possible suggestions to help you in any way. I had a very high milk supply with my second and he couldn't comfort nurse, because he'd get way too much milk. I found it easier on both of us to nurse with him on me. So, I'd lay down on my back and put him on my chest and he'd nurse that way. The gravity worked on our side, as he was less drowned with milk. He still prefers to nurse/sleep this way. I can put him down after he has fallen asleep, but this is now what's comforting for him (he's 15 months now).


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## Nanethiel (May 21, 2008)

Yea, you can use sweetener (something natural, no artificial sweeteners) and oils. It might sound funny, but the zucchini bread my hubby makes for me is brown rice/white rice flour, zucchini (sometimes we add yellow squash, too), olive oil, water, xylitol, a little bit of baking powder (the one we have has a little corn starch in it which is fine for us). That's it. It's awesome!

He's an 'intuitive cook', meaning, he doesn't measure, knows by heart how much of what ingredient to use - I told him about you and he said next time he makes one, which is either tonight or tomorrow (running out of my "keep me sane bread" is not a funny experience







), he will measure and then I can tell you!







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
Shanti, how do you make zucchini bread if you can't have anything. Do you use rice flour? So I can put sugar (or I prefer maple syrup or another natural sweetener) and use oils? It didn't mention that in the article. I love zucchini bread! Although it does have eggs in it usually. Do you have a recipe?







.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Hey Giselle, you are totally right. I have done that and still do and it sometimes works. I lay right back on our recliner lounge and pop him on top. He gets a bit thingy with it though, and it seems to dig his chin into my breast which hurts, and I've heard can cause block ducts. But when he's desperate to suck, he seems to try. It put him to sleep once!

I'm going to start block feeding again. I had to do it in the early days and then it came back. I did it again and then it came back (so much for "by six weeks feeding is established" PAH!







). Yesterday he had explosive watery green poo - classic oversupply of foremilk sign. AGAIN! So I'm back on the block feed treadmill. I block two feeds on the same breast. The other one gets engorged in that time and signals the brain to lessen production. In a few days, there is less milk. I hope it stays that way this time!


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Shanti -







: I await recipe!


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## uptowngirl (Jun 9, 2008)

I can't remember where I read it, but the "change of tactics" idea is a good one. Instead of playing, feeding, sleeping....try "feeding, playing , sleeping." Many of us are awakened by a meal---and we need something in-between food and sleep. Maybe your baby is this way. Hard to do in the middle of the night, but if it buys you some hours (and baby some peace) then it's worth a try.


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## bright_eyes (Dec 7, 2007)

Calm, have you thought about tajing him to a chiropractor? I know quite a few people that had "colicky" babies and this made a world of difference in their babies.


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## marcimoose (Feb 2, 2008)

our ds is a pre-sleep crier. in your arms, in the bed with you, in the swing, in the crib, in the car seat... it's a specific cry that we know is his refusal to let go. (lying with him these days causes him to actually get more upset, so we have been laying him in the crib to sleep). it's actually a serious bummer for us. we cut the legs off our bed hoping to cosleep till he was 3 or older and boom... we realized not too long after that he sleeps better without us. i am in no way shape or form pro cio or anything like that, but our ds seriously could not sleep with us there trying to cuddle him. strange, but true and from what i've been reading over and over again on this site, not that unusual.

this is not advocating cio! i'm just saying that i've realized that my son has a certain cry that precedes the first sleep of the night and usually his daytime naps too. he's resisted sleep since he was 2 weeks old. now that i realize this, i feel better about him crying before sleeping. i'm hoping he'll outgrow it and learn to feel safe drifting off. so again, i am not advocating cio. when he cries, i pick him up and cuddle and comfort him and as i like to say, "do a do over". (lay him back down and see where how he does).

once we realized that cosleeping was actually messing up his sleep, he slept 5 hours straight! this child has never slept more than 2-3 hours at a time. so, i know i'll probably get some flack for posting this, but as a mama who firmly believes in cosleeping, this is where i ended up. sometimes what we want as parents and what we believe in most deeply is not what turns out to be best for our kids i guess. there are no cookie cutter solutions. just happy babies, i hope... (and happy parents too!)


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## marcimoose (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
anyone believe there may just be some babies that need to cry before they sleep?

it doesn't matter what i do for ds, nothing soothes him, he just cries and sometimes screams. (rejects pacifier, nursing, rocking gently, etc) i can eventually get him to sleep bouncing on the fitball (adrenalin junkie + poor sleep assoc = sad mama), but he is discontent (at least) until he passes out. is this how babies fall asleep?

i thought the only times at sleep time babies would cry was if they were CIO. it seems my kid is CIO in arms 4 naps a day and one bedtime. yes, better that it is in-arms but i just don't think he really is this miserable or that it was meant to be this way.

we are missing the sense of "rightness" in our life.

nak

i swear we have given birth to the same child...


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mchalehm* 
I'm sure you've tried everything--but when my daughter was a newborn she hated to be held when she was tired. She slept great if we put her down (in the bassinet, on our bed, whatever) but cried if we didn't. Some babies need a little space.


This was my daughter, exactly.


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## Danielle1973 (Nov 11, 2007)

My 16 month old daughter sometimes cries until she falls asleep if she's overtired. I don't leave her I sit by her crib and either rub her back if she lets me or just place my hand on her back and sometimes she will cry because she is sooo tired. I think that's diff than CIO because I'm sitting there trying to soothe her and let her know I'm still there


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## mrsrobertson (Jun 8, 2008)

this all sounds like me! i'm so exhausted, and emotionally drained from his crying. but come like 8am he's suddenly mister happy go lucky baby and giving smiles, coos, giggles. i'm boggled by it all. i don't know what to do.


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## SaraZ (Aug 16, 2007)

I have the same exact situation. My DS (3 months) cries and cries himself to sleep in my arms every night as I rock and bounce him. He won't sleep in a swing or sling or bouncy chair or car seat or stroller. Those things are fun, but when it's time to sleep, he needs to be bounced in my arms. I watch carefully for "the window" so he doesn't get overtired, but no matter what he cries and sometimes screams until he passes out. I just hold him and whisper sweetly and try to give him the feeling that I'm there for him with whatever he's going through. I don't think there's any more I could do for him. But I also worry that maybe he wishes he could fall asleep on his own (needs less stimulation and more space?) but I don't know exactly how to proceed. I keep feeling like it's my fault somehow--like I'm missing something! But maybe, like you said, some babies just need to cry.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Sara, that feeling that you're missing something - I know what you mean. I think I have nailed our issue, he cries much less and only when he is in the situation I finally grasped. He has a tough time putting himself to sleep, so he just freaks right out. And you're right, it doesn't seem to matter if you catch the window of opp or not. Sometimes it does work though.

We have started with the cot for naps, but DH does it cos he won't take it from me so far. most naps are in the sling still, we're going slowly. but if i sit and hold him, rocking or not - he cries and it just escalates. he needs to be bounced.

some advice i got seems to be true, if you need it at some time - and that is, it is easier to get them to sleep in a cot (or other new sleep space) in the afternoon sleep. they sleep longer and deeper in that sleep. also, they want to be nursed by the one with the milk - therefore, we find DH has better luck if ds is having a moment of wanting to suck but not wanting milk. those moments are killers here.


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## megan sacha (Oct 24, 2005)

Sorry I haven't had time to read all the responses so I may be repeating, but yes some babies DO need to cry to release tension so they can sleep. And catching them early can definitely reduce the crying. So, for naps, I would say if a baby that age is starting to fuss a bit but isn't hungry, then it's very likely they are tired so I would head straight into the nap soothing before they get worked up (which can happen very quickly). As for bedtime, if you're having issues the, I'd try an earlier time.

Are you doing all of the 5 S's of Harvey Karp's Happiest Baby on the Block at the same time? Sucking, swaddle, side or stomach lying, swaying (some need a quite rattling jiggle), and shussshing. Do right, these work very well for most babies that age.

Since you're baby likes bouncing have you tried the Amby bed? And how about putting baby in the car seat and bouncing that on the ball? This is much easier on your back.

And, if you're running out of steam, find someone to relieve you...your partner, other family member, a postpartum doula?

Also, what you're describing is in no way CIO. You are there for your baby and he knows it. He isn't left alone.

You're doing everything right mama!


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## lyttlewon (Mar 7, 2006)

*Calm* you mentioned block feeding. Have you started that again? Both of my children had crying at night issues, DD was much much worse, and with DS I figured it was mostly resolved by block feeding. They both outgrew it but it was miserable in the meantime. DS liked to be whacked on the back while DH was holding him. You couldn't sit you had to stand and whackwhackwhack.


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