# NT Mamas January Thread!



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I thought I would start the January thread off today before I head into the kitchen to make french toast with my slow risen sourdough!

Happy New Year everyone!


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Today we had buttermilk soaked spelt flour pancakes. Mmmmm. I got a cast iron stove top grill from freecycle and its awesome for cooking up stuff like this.

Has anyone tried to making the crispy nuts with seasonings?


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## BowenTherapist (Apr 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
Today we had buttermilk soaked spelt flour pancakes. Mmmmm. I got a cast iron stove top grill from freecycle and its awesome for cooking up stuff like this.

Has anyone tried to making the crispy nuts with seasonings?

i have tried to put some chili powder on them, but it all came off..
i think what i may try next time is make a super concentrated salt/flavor solution and spray it on once i put them to bake. i don't know if it would help the seasonings stay on better. the other time it all came off


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Just wanted to subscribe.

I haven't been around much because I've been dealing with pretty severe lactose intolerance and talking about food in general has made me









I'm doing ok with yogurt and kefir (thank goodness) so I've been eating my soaked oats every morning.

Goat cheese and butter have been ok in small doses. But milk/cream/cow cheese -- NO WAY!









Anyway....in other (happier) news...

I got a grain grinder for Christmas. it's the Family Grain Grinder that attaches to my Kitchenaid mixer. I bought some wheat berries this weekend and I'm very excited (but a little nervous...there are lots of warnings in the directions that came with the grinder) to grind up some flour.


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## terrarose (Dec 2, 2004)

OK, I'm sure I should be able to figure it out but what does NT stand for? Thanks!


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## BowenTherapist (Apr 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama*
Just wanted to subscribe.

I

I got a grain grinder for Christmas. it's the Family Grain Grinder that attaches to my Kitchenaid mixer. I bought some wheat berries this weekend and I'm very excited (but a little nervous...there are lots of warnings in the directions that came with the grinder) to grind up some flour.









ooo i can't wait to hear how you like it!
i just ordered one and it should be here on wed!!! (now i just need to hint around to my family that a great 30 b-day present from everyone would be a kitchenaid mixer, so i don't have to use my grandma's. although i am looking forward to weekly trips to visit gramma! )


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

I think there could be an NT-definition at the start of each thread. Just copy the same one over and over or something? Or put something in the archives to direct everyone to. It comes up over and over, YKWIM?


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

We're doing pretty well here. I'm on a fish and vegetable diet with my husband







I've cheated every day with kefir. Funny thing is, I gave away all but about a tbs of kefir grains (down from 3 cups) to go dairy free. Now I've got the kefir brewing near the woodstove to get those babies moving along.

I mailed out yesterday for anyone waiting for kefir grains from me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*

Has anyone tried to making the crispy nuts with seasonings?

I've done the holiday pecans (as walnuts and almonds as well as pecans. Tasty. easy.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

NT stands for Nourishing Traditions, right? I've read some Weston Price stuff - is this what this is? If so I'd like to find out more? or if not what is it? Where can I find recipies? Can anyone help me get started on finding info? I've done some searching but not finding what I'm looking for???


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Yes, NT stands for Nourishing Traditions, based on Dr. Weston Price's work. You may have been having a problem finding our old threads if you were just searching for Nourishing Traditions, so try searching under "traditional foods". There are quite a few threads, some are daily food diaries, and our old discussion threads. There are a couple in the archives too.

We should probably put up a faq...now I know why they call them "frequently asked questions"! :LOL


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Ooo- an FAQ would be great! Maybe someone can put together a 'getting started in NT' thing with links or something. I think I've now found a few things, but I still feel overwhelmed! Thanks!


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## intentfulady (Dec 31, 2003)

Signing on here. Waiting to hear more about the kitchenaid flour mill.

Looking for Canadian source as well.

I'm guessing there may be some used out there, as people burn out on this kind of thing.

I too am abit overwhelmed. Trying to follow the kefir thread...no dairy WHEW!!

Just plop them in juice? I cant decipher. And who/what is DOM?

TIA (just figured out what that means)LOL
Colleen


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intentfulady*
Signing on here. Waiting to hear more about the kitchenaid flour mill.

Looking for Canadian source as well.

I'm guessing there may be some used out there, as people burn out on this kind of thing.

Check the Bargain Finder. It is a weekly paper that comes out on Wednesdays. It cannot be accessed online but that last time I was in your neck of the woods I saw a Bargain Finder for the area I am in at the Fas Gas. I have seen goooood deals on Kitchenaids in there.

Quote:

I too am abit overwhelmed. Trying to follow the kefir thread...no dairy WHEW!!

Just plop them in juice? I cant decipher. And who/what is DOM?
So Dom is the guy that compiled a super duper huge amount of info on the website that Xenabyte offers on the first page of the January thread. Kefir, youghurt etc.

I converted my milk kefir grains to juice kefir grains. I am using grape juice. I simply put the grains into a litre canning jar and then pour grape juice over to 2/3 full and then cover with an elastic and wax paper.

After two- three days I strain and have fizzy, tart and strong wine tasting grape kefir.









However, this way, the only drawback is that your grains will not reproduce. They will just age, without producing anymore babies. Its like I have post-menopausal grains!

On Doms site he has a large sections on grape kefir and converted grains.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

I have the Family Grain Mill w/ Kitchenaid adapter.

I ground my first batch of wheat flour today. It was SOOOO quiet. I had dd on my back and we stood right next to the grinder - no problem.

It was also very easy to clean (that was why my aunt - who did all the grain mill research - picked this one...I just jumped on the bandwagon and got the same one as her. :LOL)

My flour is soaking in the oven (with the light on...read that somewhere on one of these threads...seems to be just enough to keep it warm







).

Tomorrow...I'm planning to make pancakes and the basic muffins (not sure what kind they will be just yet).

Anyone have any good sources for buying grains online? Also looking for a a resource that explains the different grains (like what kind of wheat berries would give me a whole wheat pastry flour)?

Thanks.

~Erin


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

I have been working like crazy the last few days planning a kitchen remodel. Just in case --

From an NT perspective, is there anything you would include in your dream kitchen that I may not have thought about? Reasonably affordable dream kitchen, that is.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Dharmama, keep the info coming about the family grain mill! I was looking into mills a while back, and thought that would be the best to get, but dh disagreed. I've been wondering about volume and speed. A friend of mine has been lending me hers, which is great of her, and it grinds the grain quickly (IMO) -- but it's loud. I also liked all of the attachments that could be purchased.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Quote:

From an NT perspective, is there anything you would include in your dream kitchen that I may not have thought about? Reasonably affordable dream kitchen, that is.
Lot-o-counter space for kneading bread etc.

An oven that goes down to at least 150 degrees (for dehydrating). Mine only goes as low as 170....or a built in dehydrator/warming box for raising dough, soaking grains etc.

Quote:

Dharmama, keep the info coming about the family grain mill!
Will do. The pancakes were







BTW!


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## Danesmama (Dec 15, 2001)

Dharmama - I believe that hard winter wheat is used for bread flour (higher gluten content), so I think it follows that soft spring/summer wheat would be best for pastry flour. . . I am pulling this off the top of my head, but am 80% sure I'm correct. I am so jealous of your grain mill! I wondered if you felt that it added _a lot_ of time to your food prep? I am really interested in using a flour grinder, but I am barely keeping up with housework/cooking now.

Another question - my dh is pretty sensitive to sour food tastes - are there any recipes you could recommend to start us on the NT path that are milder in flavor? I made the soaked oatmeal porridge the other morning and he was pretty grossed out. We usually eat oatmeal that is just soaked for 5 min in boling water, so the sticky sour grains _were not_ appealing to him.

Thanks - I'm looking forward to learning more.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama*
Lot-o-counter space for kneading bread etc.

An oven that goes down to at least 150 degrees (for dehydrating). Mine only goes as low as 170....or a built in dehydrator/warming box for raising dough, soaking grains etc.

Good point. I tend to take that stuff for granted but need to do some research. We had a commercial stove and refrigerator in the kitchen (this house had been a retreat facility). We have made a deal with the local church to swap the appliances for labor on the remodel. We have done the stove swap already and are using what was in the church's kitchen -- a very low-end gass stove. I was shocked at the difference. The burners are tiny and very low BTU. It's easy to burn food because the heat is focused on one small part of the pot or pan. I haven't even bothered to make crispy nuts in the oven. The week before the swap I made about two gallons of crispy nuts. LOL. We had a double oven, each commercial size, that would hold two large cookie sheets each. Talk about a lot of crispy nuts. And then there is the fridge. Folks here have commented on how much kefir we must be brewing. I did it in gallon glass jars and often had three different jars in the fridge at one time. I need to find a few half gallons for the normal old fridge we are going to end up with. But the floor space is a dream. When you get rid of some mondo appliances and get normal ones, it's amazing what you can do for your kitchen.

OK, you all can see what's on my mind.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danesmama*
Another question - my dh is pretty sensitive to sour food tastes - are there any recipes you could recommend to start us on the NT path that are milder in flavor? I made the soaked oatmeal porridge the other morning and he was pretty grossed out. We usually eat oatmeal that is just soaked for 5 min in boling water, so the sticky sour grains _were not_ appealing to him.

You might try steel cut oats -- rather than rolled, the oat is just chopped up. It has a totally different texture and doesn't get that slimy texture like oatmeal does. It cooks up in just a few minutes if soaked (as opposed to 30 if not). We get ours at Trader Joe's.


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## macytoedt (Nov 17, 2004)

i have been following this thread and am totally convinced to get the NT book (just don't have money right now to buy it) , ....we already do alot just trying to eat better but i have a question,

what is the advantage to soaking grains?....i'm actually trying get a good recipe to make homeade rice milk....i found a few recipes on the forums and internet but some say to soak the grains first then cook (and i do not know if that is in the soak water or not) and some just say cook the rice etc....

do you soak all grains before cooking? and do you use the soak water or not...

any rice milk recipes would be great, i've read some recipes use white rice which i do not understand why you would do that instead of brown (long or short?)

thank you for this thread, i love the support that is here at MDC.

peace,
macy


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danesmama*
Another question - my dh is pretty sensitive to sour food tastes - are there any recipes you could recommend to start us on the NT path that are milder in flavor? I made the soaked oatmeal porridge the other morning and he was pretty grossed out. We usually eat oatmeal that is just soaked for 5 min in boling water, so the sticky sour grains _were not_ appealing to him.

Try different things to soak the oatmeal - whey, kefir, yogurt, vinegar, and lemon juice all contribute different flavours to the final oatmeal. I'm really partial to kefir lately, but also have really good results with yogurt. I've found that the milder the yogurt, the milder the oatmeal, too, so try different brands.

HTH


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
However, this way, the only drawback is that your grains will not reproduce. They will just age, without producing anymore babies. Its like I have post-menopausal grains!


:LOL









...just read that part and it cracked me up...post menopausal grains..heheh


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

For the kitchen, a warm place for fermenting/sprouting seeds (I think this was mentioned, actually) plus a cool dark place for storing jarred fermented stuff after the bac have done enough. Large freezer for stock, bulk meats. Also a cool space is nice for keeping butter. Place to hang cheesecloth for making whey.

Actually, if it were me, I would make space elsewhere in the house for things that need to be cool. I've read that food shouldn't be stored in the kitchen if possible because it is too warm and damp to keep things well.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

macytoedt, you want to soak all your grains/beans/nuts/seeds to deactivate the phytates, which block mineral absorption. A diet high in phytates can lead to mineral deficiency.

Here are a couple links that talk about it:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ad.php?t=90923
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=170538

I can't remember who was asking on our last thread about making bread in a bread machine, but I think all you would need to do is run the dough cycle, let the dough ferment to neutralize the phytates, then do the punch down/rise/bake cycle. I've never tried it though, but it sounds like it should work. The fermenting part is the important step, not who (or what) does the kneading and baking!


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Since starting a sourdough starter and making bread by: boosting the starter then making dough, and letting it rise for 12 - 24 hours then punching and shaping and letting rise again for 6 hours I have not used my bread machine at all.

Its one of those appliances I will now get rid of. Kneading the dough before the first rise only takes me about 10 minutes. The next kneading and shaping only takes me about 5 minutes.

I suppose I could use the machine for the initial mixing and kneading but then I have one more thing to wash....:LOL

HTH


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## BowenTherapist (Apr 25, 2002)

so i got, and tried out, my family grain mill.
very quiet, but the flour that it makes is very course. before i got this i had a manual stone grinder, that made very nice flour! but it took me like 30 min to do 2 cups of flour, good exercise though








over all it seems like a good buy though

i made the raisin cookies from the snack food section, anyone else make these before? they came out very flat and melted into each other. anyone know what i did wroing? or just expect them to come out like that


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## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BowenTherapist*
so i got, and tried out, my family grain mill.
very quiet, but the flour that it makes is very course.

I have a Family grain mill, not the Kitchenaid attachment kind but the one with the Jupiter motor, and it the flour it makes seems to be as fine as whole grain flour from the store.

BTW, hi to all. I don't think I've posted to any of the NT threads yet here at MDC, but have been using NT for 3+ years now.

About the kitchen remodel, when I got a new stove I chose one that has a warming drawer below the oven, and I use it all the time for drying and soaking things. I definitely recommend it, works great, and I'm so glad I got it. If the food is in a vessel that won't fit in the warming drawer, I put it in the oven and the heat rises from the drawer (I find just the light isn't enough to dry out nuts or sprouted grains, my old oven with a pilot light worked for that with only the pilot heat, but new ovens all seem to be pilot-less). The oven only goes down to 170, but the warming drawer from low to high ranges from about 100 to 150. Perfect. One note, though - the drawer is heated from below so anything put directly on the bottom of the drawer will get hot where it touches (I guess there's an electric heating element below the drawer, the stove is gas but the warming drawer is electric), so I leave the broiler pan that came with the oven in there and place sheet pans on top of that, so there's a buffer zone.


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## Illuviel (Jul 4, 2004)

Hi all; I'm subscribing to this thread.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama*
An oven that goes down to at least 150 degrees (for dehydrating). Mine only goes as low as 170....

Many ovens' thermostats are adjustable. Check your owner's manual for instructions. For example, I can adjust mine by removing the temperature control button on the front and changing the position of a little metal indicator (each notch is a 10 degree F shift).

This is also a good way to ~raise~ the temperature of an oven for baking breads, if that's desired.


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

I thought that my oven only went down to 170, but when I put a tray of nuts on the floor of the oven, an oven thermometre on the tray reads 150. Sometimes I get impatient at the end and toast them on a higher temperature. I'm not really concerned about preserving enzymes in our food, we eat most things cooked.

I'm going to put some seed to soak on right now. I use a mixture including flax and the fiber from the flax helps them to clump together into a kind of savoury granola.

I'm getting to grips with my breadmaker - I still feel really ambivalent about it, but we certainly have been eating a lot of home-produced bread since I got it. I noticed that one of the references that Toraji gave about soaking flours said that wheat requires 2 hours, rye 3. I know that's a lot less than NT usually says, but it makes me feel better about breadmaker bread - counting kneading and rising, the flour has 5 1/2 hours to soak in a warm setting. Not acidic, though. Despite that, I'm experimenting with soaking the flour beforehand

I have been making lovely scones and pancakes for breakfast by soaking spelt or wheat flour in kefir for 24 hours.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Is it supposed to taste so bitter? Also, it's really not becoming carbonated at all - is it supposed to be? Should I add some more whey? Instead of yogurt whey, would I have more success with kefir whey? It's pretty cold in my kitchen, so I've let it go a bit longer (I have an airlock on it), but it's been four days, so I'm starting to wonder . . .
TIA


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

I am trying to make the transition to a NT-type of diet. It seems like a whole lot of work, though, and I feel overwhelmed by it. What are some easy things to do first? What are some easy ways to transition to this type of eating?

Thanks!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks for the oven ideas gals. I have been thinking a lot about a warming drawer. I hadn't thought of it for nuts and such. That makes it more attractive. One of our problems is that our house is so cold that dishes out of the cupboard in the winter are like ice. If the woodstove has been stoked, it's too hot for the plates -- they woould crack. I think we definitely need a warming drawer.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Garden mama...When I began the converstion I started by making youghurt. Then straining that youghurt through cheesecloth to make youghurt creme cheese and whey.

Once I had that rythym down, I began to soak grains before cooking then I began to soak flour for baking, then I started a sourdough starter for bread etc.

I took it step by step. Each time I prepared food I consulted the NT cookbook to see how Sally suggested to prepare it and then I consulted with the women here to see how they did things.

Each day I do about 1 hour of NT related tasks.

Now I have on hand at all times...crispy nuts of different variety, soaked and/or cooked grains, fermented veg, kefir drinks, youghurt and youghurt cheese, sourdough starter and/or bread. Each is prepared every couple of days and I try to only to 1 or 2 tasks daily.

It really has changed my life, I am a different person with food. After feeling afraid of food for most of my life, suffering from eating disorders, limiting my diet by following a strict vegan diet and not understanding the value of minerals and vitamins and how to unlock them, I have been empowered by this transistion.

The new "phrase" in our house is "Is it femented?" :LOL

HTH


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## Danesmama (Dec 15, 2001)

Mountain Mom - I like your procession into a NT cooking routine - you made it sound very do-able! I need to start putting some of her ideas into practise because often I never get out of the thinking about doing something stage.

Has anyone ever made the cultured butter? I know that is a strange place to start, but when I lived in Maine we used organic cultured butter. Back then I only knew that it was different - I didn't understand what cultured really meant. Anyhow, cultured butter always tasted so good and I was disappointed not to find it in Colorado. So I thought I might try to make a batch. It still impresses me how wonderful that butter tasted - and cookies etc made with it were heavenly.


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

Subscribing to this thread...I have been soooo out of touch with NT, and, boy, am I feeling it. I just ordered a book Sally Fallon contributed to (Fourfold Path of Healing) and one of Mary Enig's (I think it's Eat Fat Lose Fat -- it's about coconut oil) with my Amazon gift certificate. I'm hoping these will inspire me right out of my downward spiral.


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## myjo (Feb 14, 2004)

I just wanted to subscribe to this thread. I foolishly started another thread looking for you ladies without doing a search first. I should have known!

Anyway, I'm only about a month and a half into transitioning to an NT diet. There's still a lot of things I haven't tried yet. One great thing is that my dh is in favor of us getting two dairy goats! I'm really excited because I love dairy, but pasturized cow's milk is a no no for me. I can't wait to start making cheese and yogurt and kefir!

What I've been able to accomplish so far is I learned to make beef broth, I found a source of goat's milk yogurt and raw cheese, I've made crispy nuts a couple of times, and we already ate sprouted grain bread, but I really want to learn to make sourdough now. Getting the process down is essential for me because I can't tolerate gluten. And hopefully soon our freezer will be full of grass fed limousine beef.

Glad I found you ladies!


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Quote:

About the kitchen remodel, when I got a new stove I chose one that has a warming drawer below the oven, and I use it all the time for drying and soaking things.








I have one and I never even thought of that. How perfect.

My aunt gave me some sourdough starter today.









She created a new NT-inspired bread recipe...oatmeal-wheat-sourdough. I will retype and post. had some today.









We've both found that we don't like the bread recipes in NT very much so we're trying to use NT methods to make better tasting bread/muffins/scones etc.

I made the buttermilk biscuits and the basic muffins this week and they came out like flavorless hockey pucks. Oh well. My chickens and sheep enjoyed them.


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## intentfulady (Dec 31, 2003)

Well, I've located a cow. Grass fed only in a field. He's mine and I can have him butchered.

The butcher is beside himself. He's sure I won't like the flavor without at least a little grain. I've looked around a little, which is how much time I have to spend on computer.

Mercola site reccommends a few weeks of grain.

I can't keep the whole cow. I need to split it, and it's unlikely I will find any NT folks as I'm new in a tiny town. Although I have some buyers if it tastes good.

I'm curious about the details. The cow is also on the lean side as its January in CAnada.

Any thoughts or advice. should I wait till fall?
TIA


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

nak. can't do dairy,bothers the babe. exception: have added very small amounts of kefir, and she does ok with that. am interested in soaking, need to learn more of the details about that. I made chicken noodle soup, and lamb stew; a hit with my family. very hard to do that after such a long time vegetarian.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gardenmommy*
very hard to do that after such a long time vegetarian.

Boy I hear ya on that one. I was vegetarian for a good part of twenty years. Started back with fish, then bone broths and now bison.

Sometimes I get a really guilty feeling and I have to remind myself that I am eating ethically farmed food/organic etc. and it helps me a little better

I think that this is the most animal I can handle right now, we do eggs, butter, fermented dairy and raw cheese too.

Has anyone tried to slow dry the buttermilk pancakes? In the book she suggests that with the smaller thinner pancakes to put them in your oven at 150 degrees and slowly dry them to be canape like.

I was wondering if a spice in the pancake would be appropriate? I doubled the recipe for tomorrow morning and the first half I will make for breakfast then I thought I would put a spice in for the second part of the batter and make them small, thin and then dry them for a dinner party tomorrow night. Also thought I would make a tzatiki for them.

So what do you think about coriander as the spice?

Ramblings......


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## earthchick (Sep 30, 2004)

Intentful lady, I wouldn't call myself a grass-fed "expert" but I have had grass-fed beef. I spent a summer in Bolivia and all the beef there was grass-fed. I found it to be tough and stringy - very difficult for me to eat. Of course there may have been factors other than the cows' diet, but I was told (by another American) that the main difference was that the cows there were grass-fed. I didn't like it at all (then again, I also wasn't much of a meat-eater back then).

If it were me, I'd go with Mercola's recommendation and make sure the cow had a few weeks of grain before slaughter.

Good luck to you!


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

We have completely pasture finished beef and it does not seem that tough to me. But that being said, I usually do ground meats or long stews, I'm not a big fan of giant hunks of meat.

gardenmommy:


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## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intentfulady*
Well, I've located a cow. Grass fed only in a field. He's mine and I can have him butchered.

The butcher is beside himself. He's sure I won't like the flavor without at least a little grain. I've looked around a little, which is how much time I have to spend on computer.

Mercola site reccommends a few weeks of grain.

I can't keep the whole cow. I need to split it, and it's unlikely I will find any NT folks as I'm new in a tiny town. Although I have some buyers if it tastes good.

I'm curious about the details. The cow is also on the lean side as its January in CAnada.

Any thoughts or advice. should I wait till fall?
TIA

The butcher may be right about the flavor, and you may have an issue with it being tough as well, but it's not as simple as grain-finished vs. fully grassfed. I buy completely grassfed beef from a ranch in my region, and the flavor is wonderful, very beefy but not gamey (not anything like the insipid feedlot beef from the grocery store, either), and the cuts that are supposed to be tender, are (the better cuts of steak like t-bone, porterhouse, filet mignon, rib steaks, and rib roasts). They've studied how to finish beef on grass, and while I don't know the specifics, whatever they do works. I think it has something to do with finishing on green, growing grass. I wouldn't expect anything like the same results from a "lean" cow (steer?) out in a field in January. If you've already paid for this animal, it might be better to wait to butcher it until whatever season is the end of your green, growing grass (late spring/early summer? don't know specifically for your region). Another thing that can make a HUGE difference is dry aging. Can your butcher hang the carcass for you for 2-3 weeks? Dry aging allows enzymes to start tenderizing, and it concentrates the flavor by allowing for evaporation of some of the moisture. (You can also dry age individual cuts of meat at home in your refrigerator, I've done this with roasts and it makes a difference, and I think in some cases it can even be more effective in improving tenderness and flavor than hanging the carcass before it's portioned. Let me know if you want specifics on how to do that.) Proper cooking makes a big difference, as well.

I know many of the grassfed advocates, like Mercola, say a short finishing period on grain is fine, and in many respects it probably is (yes, wild ruminants would eat small amounts of grain when the grass goes to seed), but there have been studies done that show even a short grain finishing (as in, intensive feeding of grain for a period of time) has a dramatic impact on certain nutrients in the meat, most especially CLA (which almost completely disappears) but also things like vit. E and omega-3s. In addition to the different nutrient profile of the feed itself (more omega-6s in grain than in grass, for instance), grain alters the environment in the rumen to the extent that the nutrient conversion done by the bacteria in the animal's digestive system is different. Certainly a grain-finished animal that has spent most of its life in a natural setting eating grass would be far, far healthier than feedlot beef, but IMO it's not on a par with grassfed, grass-finished beef. But, we do what we can with what's available to us, and if it's a good price for this animal, well then...


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## civmom511 (Jan 7, 2005)

Hello all, I am so happy there are some traditional food mamas on here







, I didn't think any existed here and didn't even try searching...I'm glad you found me.
I'll tell you all a little about myself...My name is Stephanie, I'm 21 and married to my dh Nathan for almost 3 years. We have a 21 month old son and I'm about 6 mo. pregnant with our second child (don't know the sex, didn't have an ultrasound). I'm due May 1st. This baby is my experimento baby since I concieved him/her exactly one month after going the TF way. If any of you are familiar with The Weston A Price foundation (Sally Fallon is one of the founders), you may know that he recommended cod liver oil, lots of eggs, and raw milk products for pregnancy and nursing...well that's what I am doing with this pregnancy and I feel great (although I have gained about 5 ponds more than with my first, but it's okay since I am the type who loses weight very quickly while breastfeeding.)
I own Nourishing Traditions and use it for almost every meal, it's like my how-to manual. One big piece of advice I can give NT/TF mamas just starting out is to visit the WAPF website and look up your local chapter and contact them, I am a WAPF member and they were a big help to me. Most chapters already have a source of raw milk found, along with eggs, chicken and beef or lamb. A lot of the members produce their own food and are usually willing to sell it at a fair price or barter for it...for instance, my chapter leader raises her own pastured organic lamb but she hates baking, I bake 2 loaves of sprouted whole grain bread for her each week and she gives me lots of lamb...especially a lot of the bones and organs, since almost no one will buy them, not even any of the other chapter members. The fantastic thing about joining WAPF though is you are supporting local farmers and businesses and increasing local commerce which is exactly what we need to do to kick down the mega-food corporations and keep food production where it belongs...in the local community. If anyone is interested, here's the link...List Of WAPF Local Chapters.
I bake a lot and can give advice about baking the TF way if anyone needs help. For me personally, I have found I like hard white winter wheat the best and use it for both yeast breads and quick breads. My son loves the NT pancakes and I make them all ways...with spices, with berries, with carob chips, and dry them crispy (I use my excalibur food dehydrator, I bought it 5 years ago while going through one of those raw foody vegan fads







:. I highly reccomend it, I have used it for everything from fruits and veggies to grains and nuts, and it works really well for making deer jerky) and make mini pizzas out of them, it's a very versatile recipe.
The following quote is from an article from the WAPF magazine called Wise Traditions, it's one of my favorite articles and easily relates my view on the way life should be and could be:

RAW MILK ECONOMICS
You have two cows, non-genetically manipulated and produced through natural breeding, who feed on fertile green pastures and produce delicious high-fat milk. They are cheerfully milked by your round-faced children having naturally straight teeth and wearing pure cotton clothes, colored with natural dyes and produced in the nearby town. The cows give birth to calves every year and soon you have a herd of 30 cows, all producing delicious healthy milk. Sam and Dave have retired and bring their grandchildren around to help with the milking.
Out-of-work orthodontists gather up the manure in the milking shed and distribute it on your pasture in which happy chickens run around, turning over cow paddies and eating bugs to produce nutrient-rich eggs. You make naturally yellow butter from the cream, and a delicious cheese. You feed the whey and skim milk to your small herd of hogs, which they thoughtfully turn into bacon and lard for cooking.
Reformed FDA officials help you make lacto-fermented juice from the fruit grown in your orchards and pickles and chutneys from your garden produce. All these products you provide in your on-farm store to your farm shareholders, many of whom are grateful survivors from the lowfat era. You make more money than you can possibly spend on yourselves and so donate to your town's schools, theatres, symphony orchestra and opera company. You also build a nice house on another part of your farm where another family lives, and you pay this family handsomely to help you on the farm. That allows you to take a big vacation twice a year and learn how people live in other parts of the world. Missionary groups teach raw milk economics to people living in other countries and every year two foreign exchange students come to help out on the farm.
You have two. . . hundred thousand farms, all producing raw milk products and providing them in on-farm stores or by home delivery. These farms create an explosion of prosperity on the local level. Small towns revive and along with them, small businesses. Every town produces a distinctive lacto-fermented soft drink and every town supports several great restaurants. Fast food places transfer into local hands; new owners cook the french fries in tallow or lard. Unemployment disappears and everybody makes a decent wage. No one uses pesticides on their farms so the chemical companies close down that part of their operation. Many corporate employees are freed up from the system and find better pay and more fulfilling work with local businesses or on farms. It will become more profitable to put land just outside cities and towns into dairy farms than houses. Towns and cities will grow while urban sprawl will give way to green spaces. Wealthy farmers and wealthy small businessmen put their money in local credit unions; the power of international banks wanes, and so does their influence in Washington. This new wealth is real, so there is no need to wage war any longer to keep the economy afloat. The health crisis resolves; inner city hospitals are torn down and replaced with inner city dairy farms, supplying fresh milk to inner city families. School lunch programs feature raw milk and products of local farms. Because the children are eating real food, their brains get wired properly; they are filled with curiosity and learn easily; teaching becomes a joyous profession once again. Happy, well nourished children contribute to an artistic flowering-music, painting, literature, dance and the dramatic arts flourish.
You have two. . . hundred million people who drink raw milk. And all of them live happily ever after.

For the rest of the article, click here...The Politics and Economics of Food


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Welcome civmom511. You'll find a lot of die-hard WAPF groupies around here. I found the traditional foods movement in the process of trying to fix the underlying cause of my PPD. There's lots of baking talk in this whole forum -- it sounds like you'll have lots to contribute. We don't eat grains here.







I am discovering, finally, that I need to cut them out. It's hard to imagine a life without bread, but I would rather function well.

On gun control, this really isn't an appropriate place for it so it may get moved elsewhere. But for my part, it sounds like both docs and guns kill people. It's a fallacy to claim that because there are more physician-related deaths that gun deaths don't matter. Around here we are planning on pulling out a pellet gun of my grandpa's to scare off a passle of racoons. A pellet gun will do just fine. I don't think we are going to need a semi-automatic for the job.


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

Its great to see so many new people on the boards. We're back on the NT track here and I'm proud to announce that I am CAFFEINE FREE!!!! Finaly, I stopped over 2 weeks ago and haven't looked back. I've been taking a few superfood supplements to help me during the transition, some liver tablets, bee pollen, chlorella & black currant oil in addition to my cod liver oil.

I'm been making lots of lacto fermented goodies and our digestion is going much more smoothly in the house. I've been especially pleased with the fermented bean dip, so yummy.

As far as the off topic discussion on gun control this really isn't the place, I think there a politics forum for things like that. Living in NYC I certainly am not worried about the accidental gun deaths rather the intentional ones. I come here for support of my diet beliefs and to feel welcome by other moms with similiar interests, not to discuss divisive issues such as gun control.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Definately not interested in a gun discussion of any kind. Sorry.

So my crispy pancakes when really well. I seasoned them with coriander and cumin and then made a tzatiki using cilantro, lemon and garlic and gold cayenne.







!!!!

Have a great day all!


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

hrheka! caffeine-free, woo hoo! That is great news!

Welcome to all the new mamas!


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## myjo (Feb 14, 2004)

Most of you ladies probably already know about this, but for those new to NT, I wanted to post this link to www.localharvest.org . There you can find local sources of grass fed meat, free range eggs, and organic produce. Just type your zip and you're in business. Another good resource is www.eatwild.com . Also, www.fourfoldhealing.com has a data base for finding locally produced grass fed meat, poultry, and eggs.

I also wanted to comment on the difficulty of changing from a largely lower fat veggie based diet to NT. When I first started eating more optimal ammounts of fat, it literally scared me even though I knew in my mind that it was good for me. There's a really good section of the weston price websight that deals with making the transition. I really found it very helpful. www.westonaprice.org/transition/transition.html


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## Attached Mamma (Mar 16, 2004)

Hi there everyone, just wondering what to do if there are no resources for raw milk near you? I have been making my own yogurt, and using a local dairy, but it is pasturized & homogenized. There is a source for raw goat milk not too far from us, and I made yogurt once from it, but our family was not very fond of the taste. What kind of milk should you make your cultured products out of? Kind of new to all of this, my husband & I were vegan for 6 years, started consuming organic dairy products & eggs when I was pregnant.

Thanks,


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Welcome Civmom511,

Lots of bakers around these boards! NT, Veg*n, and Omni's. Glad you found us!

While your gun 'joke' post did NOT offend me in the slightest (I'm pretty hard to offend), they will probably move that to the politics or talk amongst ourselves forum, since they like to keep all the pegs in the right holes around here.







hehe

However I'm one of those that agree, that people kill people, not guns. And there are just too many guns out there already in the wrong hands, for me not to have one JIC I need to defend myself. So I can appreciate the humor in your story.

I also think the peoples of a nation give up more than they realize once they turn all the power over to a government for 'protecting us' for our own good or not. I think if NO civilians had guns, then we'd not have some of the freedoms we have now.

Besides I used to work at a gun shop and pistol range and OMG it's scary when an 18 year old girl (at the time) can 'out shoot' (target practice) the middle aged men carrying them for security jobs and most of the men on the police force... I used to think, D***, these are the 'men' supposed to protect me in a time of need??

So I learned how to properly care for one and practice hard core 'gun safety' for storage/use at a relatively early age.

MMmm, I don't think I could shoot at a racoon or squirrel (no matter what pests they can be, though I can understand if you are protecting crops of food your family needs...still hard to think about that, since they are just foraging for food for survival with no malicious intent) and yet I would have no second thought/issue with guns (when used and kept for personal defense) or if you need to use one for personal safety. I definitely would have no problem using one to protect my family if some wacko was trying to break in my house and harm me or the kids...

But that's so off topic. Welcome again, and a question for you. Have you ever made yogurt with rice milk, not soy or dairy milks?


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

attatchedmama, I know it is hard to get used to the taste of goat's milk, but you do eventually! Actually though, I did make kefir from it by fermenting with the grains in it for 24 hours, then leaving it out one more day without the grains and I did not taste the goaty taste at all. The freshness makes a difference too.

civmom, welcome! I'd love to hear how you do your sprouted grain bread. I've been experimenting lately with sprouted wheat so more knowledge would be great.

And yay for hrheka!! That is so awesome that you are off the caffeine! It sounds like you are adding great stuff to your diet.

I'm still trying to get the sourdough thing down. But it is fun experimenting trying to get it right.

How is the fish and veggies going, Amanda? Do you take a B-vitamin or have a food source that you rely on? I've been thinking I need more B-vitamins in my diet lately. Sally mentions a certain brand of brewers yeast in her book, I'm not sure though. I was reading a book and all of the bad problems and symptoms it listed for a lack of b-vitamins I have had throughout my life, it seems.


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## Pilgrim (Dec 12, 2004)

OMGoodness! I started out researching the dental archives, found my way into the food allergies thread, then into the probiotics thread, and now here! Such a wealth of great information!

I obtained my copy of NT about 3 weeks ago, and LOVE it! I mean, it's fascinating!!!

I do have a question for those of you who are so experienced with this. My DD has severe milk allergies, but I'd like to soak my grains. I have no problem using vinegar in most things. However, we like oatmeal for breakfast around here. I tried using the vinegar for soaking, and the oatmeal tasted really AWFUL!!









I'm supposing that the "fermentation" part of the soaking is the important part, right? I mean, would it do any good to soak it overnight in salted water?

Also, I heard mention of fruit juice kefir? Would this be an appropriate substitute for vinegar or lemon juice for the oatmeal soaking?

Also, I bought some oat groats. If I sprout those, would that be as good?

Oh, and I also wanted to reply about the grass fed beef question. I have been eating grass fed beef for about 4 months now. It's 100% grass finished - no grains at all. I must say - I don't like the flavor very much - very gamey. For my first "freezerful," I ordered a variety of meats and steaks. This time around, I ordered ONLY ground beef and roasts that I can do in the crock pot - easily flavored stuff.

Well, thanks for any advice about the oatmeal!


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## civmom511 (Jan 7, 2005)

Xenabyte-I've never made yogurt from rice milk, but I have made it a lot with raw cow's milk, I think it could work but you would probably have to start completely from scratch. Is it commercial rice milk that you are wanting to use? I don't think it would work with commercial milk, it's probably way to watered down and hasn't been prepared properly. If I was going to attempt this, and I am no expert now, I would follow the NT recipe for rice milk and maybe use half the water...4c. instead of the 8 that it calls for. I would use less water so maybe you would end up with a thicker drink and then let it ferment like the recipe says, it could thicken enough to be like yogurt, but that would be the difficult part because rice doesn't have much fat and it's the fat in dairy and soy (plus some added thickners in the soy yogurts and low fat, fat free dairy ones) that make it thick and creamy. You could use arrowroot powder, but then you would have to heat up the rice milk to thicken it using the arrowroot and then culture it because you wouldn't want to add the arrowroot after culturing because that would negate the benifits of making the rice milk yogurt in the first place. But then again, you could forget about the ricemilk yogurt all together, the rice milk in NT is fermented...so, it's practically like rice milk yogurt, just not thick. The recipe for almond milk is on the same page, it could work with almond milk, almonds definitely have more fat than rice. This is just what I would try, but I can't gurantee any of it will work. I'm glad to hear you liked my little pro-gun piece, I don't mind that it was moved...I just put it up there for the people that might appreciate it, it's just become so non-PC to own a gun that it makes me sick. I know how to shoot and I am glad, if crazy whacko criminal can own one and shoot me then I need to own one to protect me and my own. My husband and I bought each other his and hers derringers for Christmas and as soon as we have some extra money were going to apply for a our concealed weapons license (which is soooo unconstitutional by the way, but I live in stupid commie maryland for right now...we're 3/4 the way saved up for a down payment on a house not in maryland and hopefully moving soon...If anyone is thinking of moving here, don't do it, you will hate it and regret it) For the past two years my husband and I have been deer-hunting together and I bagged my first buck just this past fall (and I was even 4 months pregnant, I was so proud). We have a freezer full of deer, and it really is cool to have access to a whole animal for your cooking needs, I can use things like heart meat mixed with ground muscle and make delicious burgers or actually use things like antlers and hoofs to make really good venison stock. I can't wait till spring so we can start fishing again and crabbing, the good fishing and crabs is the only good thing about living in maryland.

Tweetybirds2-The way I make sprouted whole grain bread is pretty easy. I have a toddler running around, and a semi-homestead farm and a husband to take care of so I don't normally go for the complicated stuff. I buy my grain in 50 lb. bags from a co-op in delaware, I buy only the hard white winter wheat since it looks and bakes up almost like white flour but it tastes better and is better for you than white flour. I sprout the wheat using the methods outlined in NT pg 112, I will ususally sprout a whole lot at once and then dry them all out in the dehydrator (when completely dry, they store for a few months I think, although I have only stored them as long as one month in a cool dry place or you could use the fridge if you have enough room) and grind the flour as I need it. I don't use any special kind of recipe, just your normal bread recipe, using honey as the sweetner and butter as the fat and I will sometimes add a 1/2 to 1 tsp. baking soda along with the yeast just to give it a little extra oomph! so it rises better. If you follow a regular bread recipe with sprouted whole grain flour, you may need extra water as it seems to soak up more, just play with it until you get the dough feeling like it should...I also recommend kneading it for at least 10 minutes as it's harder to get the gluten going in whole wheat flours. You could just use a bread machine too, I do that sometimes, I follow the recipe for whole wheat bread that comes with the machine, making my own substitutions. That's pretty much it, if you want to know anything else just ask me. I'm thinking about making some sourdough starter and trying that out...do you use any of the NT recipes? Is it pretty easy and do they work?

Pilgrim- Oat groats would work, you can sprout them and then let them soak in plain water to soften them up and then cook them but they might be a bit chewy. If you have a grain grinder, you could sprout a bunch of groats and dry them and then crack into smaller bits, or roll them if you have a roller, using the grinder. You could also just try to puree the sprouted softened groats in a food processor before cooking...it might work, I don't know. Sprouting the groats does get rid of the phytates but you still might not be able to get an end product that is like regular oatmeal. We eat fermented oatmeal around here and the taste did take a little getting used to at first, but now I really like it. It helps to add plenty of butter or cream, and some raw honey or banana if you like it sweet...but the butter or cream, I think, helps to mask the somewhat sour taste, but now that I am used to sour tastes (sour tastes are not very prevelant in our western culture, so most people do find it somewhat unappealing)...from using other fermented foods and cultured dairy, I think it tastes good, so it may be a matter of allowing your tastebuds to adjust. Fruit juice kefir might work as long as the cultures are alive, any of the fermented beverages from NT could in theory be used as a starter culture. I hope this helps.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

did you try lemon juice?

Barring that, just soak it overnight in a warm place to start natural fermentation, like someplace you would incubate yogurt (in the oven with a pilot light, on a warming tray, etc). We have a fermenting box that DH rigged up and just use that without any acid.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
did you try lemon juice?

Barring that, just soak it overnight in a warm place to start natural fermentation, like someplace you would incubate yogurt (in the oven with a pilot light, on a warming tray, etc). We have a fermenting box that DH rigged up and just use that without any acid.


Toraji,

I've been meaning to ask you...so, erm...would you describe your ferment box or a rough idea how it's done/made. Is it just a wood box with a light bulb in it, or do you have temp regulation and a fan or...? It sounds so cool!

Also regarding the ferments...I hope when folks say they used vinegar and it tasted aweful, they used just a tiny amount, a tsp, of the vinegar, lemon, etc, to a few cups of water.....(just in case, hey, you never know)...

And I LOVE the idea of using my ginger water kefir to soak...mmm...I'd not thought of that! But it's got citric acid and lacto fermented stuff already in it...oh yea...


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

oops, duplicate post


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## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

Most oats on the market for human consumption have been steamed and roasted or toasted, even whole oat groats. Oats go rancid (oxidized fat) very quickly after the hulls are removed, and taste bitter if they aren't cooked just enough to neutralize enzymes in the bran. After this heat treatment (and sources vary, some say toasted, some say steamed and roasted), they're either sold whole or further processed into other forms. I think there are sources for truly raw oat groats (Google it), but you'll probably have to mail order, and it's likely that the brands in most stores have been heat treated. I put a link below that explains oat processing a little bit. Raw oats would have to be stored properly, sealed to reduce exposure to oxygen and kept cool (I certainly wouldn't buy them from a bulk bin), and kept in the freezer after the package is opened.

That's not to say you can't soak heat-treated whole oat groats in an acidic medium, then dry and use - they won't have the sprouting benefits (increased vitamins, for instance), but it will accomplish phytate reduction. I've done this for oatmeal cookies. I soak the whole groats in water with whey or kefir added, enough to cover all the grains, for about 12-24 hours. Then I drain, dry and flake them in the attachment for my grain mill, and use them like rolled oats. Makes great cookies! Combined with sprouted wheat flour, butter and Rapadura in a cookie recipe, you have yummy and healthy snacks.

oat processing: http://www.namamillers.org/prd_o_mill.html


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

AJP, thank you for the awesome oat soak info! I'd called 'Quaker oat' company and the guy on the phone told me that too..said that the shelf life was greatly extended, but if they didn't do that to it, it would go rancid pretty quickly. Too bad companies like that don't do a 'phytate reduction soak' then dry and roast/toast, flake for us!

I soaked some whole oat groats in pinapple juice'd water once (hoping to get the enzyme benefits of the pineapple too) then low heat dried, then flaked. I made 'granola' with it over very low heat and it was YUMMY!

I used to keep soaked to 'just sprouting' wheat berries, then dried and ground in the fridge..I've been out for a few...but I need to do another big batch, you are right, it makes for AWESOME cookies









I'm brewing some 'rice milk' vanilla yogurt atm, so in 3 hours I hope to have a confirmation if it's edible







haha. If so, I"ll post the recipe for anyone wanting another dairy free way for getting their probiotics...


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Hi folks. The fish and vegetable diet is going well around here. My husband (who is the one who needs it, according to the chiro) is being very strict. I don't think he's ever been strict with a diet in his life. But he's got asthma and that got his attention. I have not been so strict. I have cheated with various things like eggs, liver, and kefir.







:









Other than that, it's snowing here, but just a slight dusting. It's been wet and cold for about two weeks but it looks like a bit of a dry spell is coming our way. I have been working like crazy on my "for-pay" work. I run very hot and cold, so when I work, I tend to fit about a week's worth in two days (or less).

Oh the key thing, I think I can say that I am over the PPD. September was my last episode and that was right after the miscarriage and a bunch of other hoopla. Now that we have tightened our belts after holiday extravagances, I can say that I am feeling better than ever. It's pretty incredible. I had forgotten what "normal" feels like and now I am doing even better than that.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Amanda,

I'm SO happy to hear you are post 'PPD'. I had a client with such severe PPD that she basically missed out on the first 10 months of her daughters life, as she literally could not take care of the baby or herself, much less.

It's WONDERFUL to hear how dietary changes have made such a big difference. I read your link to your amino acid problem. It makes me want to get tested, just to see how my 'profile' would look. I am assuming a regular doc can't do it, and I'd need to contact a special lab?

/big hugs!

OH, meant to PM you, but I no longer have a Kombucha...long story short, I tossed it after forgetting to 'brew it up' and didn't want to risk it. But I can put you in contact with a lady that still has them, if you want one now that it's post the Christmas 'busy' season...


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## Danesmama (Dec 15, 2001)

sorry. . .


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks Heather. I'll poke around here for someone with a mushroom.

A regular doc could order the test if he or she was willing. They would just get the kit from that lab I linked in the thread. There are probably other labs as well. I need to have my follow-up test done. It should be interesting.

My PPD was very, very bad. If my mom had not been here to help, I am sure we would have had to hire someone basically to watch me and care for Frederick.


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## intentfulady (Dec 31, 2003)

Thank you everyone for your advice. I havn't "bought the cow" yet, so I may keep plugging away. Dang I just want some pasture land now.


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## intentfulady (Dec 31, 2003)

Thank you everyone for your advice. I havn't "bought the cow" yet, so I may keep plugging away. Dang I just want some pasture land now.


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Hi! Just wnated to subscribe. I just called my husband and told him to pick up Nourishing Traditions. I've also been reading the allergy thread and probiotics thread. I never expected to learn so much while seeking info on my daughter's allergies. Finally went to a holistic pediatrician today who accepts our insurance. It was wonderful. He agreed with the allergies causing her reflux ( three other docs discounted me and told me to put her back on dairy/soy/wheat/oats) and agreed that they probably came from the vaccines. YEAH! I can't wait to start reading NT. Thanks for all your input.

Moneca







blessed wife to Payton 9/29/00 and mom to Sierra Bear














01/01/04 & Kodiak







:


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Yeah MountainMon!!!! I am glad the visit with the ped. went well.

Be sure to explore vaccine reversal via homeopathics. I have seen the protocol reverse serious issues with children. It helps to rebalance the immune and nervous systems while purging the vaccine out of the body.

Welcome aboard!


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

GaleForce...I am so happy to hear your news!!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Welcome Moneca! I'm bumping another post for you that may make you laugh (it made me laugh when I saw your posts in Health and Healing):

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=199342


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## Pilgrim (Dec 12, 2004)

Hey Mountain Mom - You and I are hangin' out on the same threads! (Dealing with the same stuff)









Xenabyte - Me! Me! Me!







I'd love to know how your dairy-free yogurt turned out! Also, it was me with the yucky vinegar oatmeal. I followed the recipe in NT, which was 2 T vinegar to 2 cups water. I used raw apple cider vinegar. Would you mind sharing how you make ginger water kefir? I'm so brand new to all of this, but I know I need to start fermenting stuff PRONTO for my little angel DD (poor baby!) Then, could I use ginger water kefir in place of whey in some recipes? (like the oatmeal issue?)

Toraji - No, I didn't try the lemon juice. I do have some organic lemons in the fridge, so I'll try that tonight. Since you say that I really can simply soak it in water overnight in a warm spot, then perhaps I could just change the ratio of vinegar/lemon juice to water and get a little more benefit? Also, if I do soak in just warm water, is it better to soak longer - like for a few days? I'm also interested in the construction of the warming box!

The hard part about this for me is wondering - if I do X (changing up the recipes), will I still get the benefits I was seeking??? How do you know when the phytic acid has been neutralized?

AJP - thanks for that fascinating information on the oats! I had already put some out for soaking (intending to drain and start sprouting process tomorrow.) :LOL oh well.

OK, what does everyone use for a warm spot? My oven only goes down to 170, a common problem I hear. I haven't even attempted yogurt or anything yet. I'm so new to this, but I first tackled making some good stocks - having so much fun with that!!

The warmest spot in our house is on top of the computer. It sits in a little spot in the desk, and the air around it is warm - would this work until I figure out a better solution?


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pilgrim*
Hey Mountain Mom - You and I are hangin' out on the same threads! (Dealing with the same stuff)









Hey Pilgram...I think you mean Mountainmon....I am Mountain Mom; she is Mountain Moneca...good way to remember it...

There is also Mountain, Mountain Chick and Mountain Mama So it can and does get confusing! :LOL

Funny link GaleForce!


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

AJP, thanks for the information on oats. I was wondering about making oatcakes - an oatmeal cracker, a big part of the tradiional Scottish diet but usually very quickly made from ground oats, a hard fat, and water. The dough is very dry and crumbly and it couldn't be left to soak at all. I guess we don't need to get the maximum mineral content out of each serving of grain we eat, but I'd like to improve on my oatcake recipe. I was thinking about sprouting the groats and then blending and oven-drying, but I might not bother now.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Hey gals. Some of you may have heard me talk about a before and after picture -- the driver's license from when I had been a vegan for a while and the following license when I had been on a no-grain candida diet for a month. I have it on shutterfly and I wonder if you can view it. Do you have to be logged in?

_URL removed due to technical difficulties. LOL_

edited to clarify that I was the same body weight in both pictures. In the vegan picture I was feeling great. In the candida picture I was going through major candida die-off and had pretty severe PPD. I hope you all can see the pic.


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## intentfulady (Dec 31, 2003)

The pics are tiny. what is the point.

Which time did you feel better?

Now NT is yet another time. How do you look/feel in comparison?


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## intentfulady (Dec 31, 2003)

Following you along, we were sick with PPD at the same time and our healing hhas kinda paralleled. I know I "looked great" when I was my sickest!

kinda wierd.


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Gale force - Funny link. I guess there are a bit too many mountain people! I know this is off the subject - Mountainmom mentioned a homeopathic vaccine reversal and I can't find anything on the net except one sentence in an article that does not mention the particular homeopathic med used. Can anyone clue me in and could I use it on a 12 month old?

Moneca







blessed wife to Payton 9/29/00 and mom to Sierra Bear














1/1/04 & Kodiak







:


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

hey Moneca!!

I think that the most 'generic' remedy you can administer is Thuja, but I think that its important to see a Classical Homeopathic Doctor, who will determine which remedies are the ones that your little one needs.

Homeopathics are very specific, if you use one that doesn't need to be used, it literally does nothing thus a waste of time, money and resources.

My close friends little boy did the reversal with the help of a classical homeopath and it was like watching a layer of mucous peel off his nervous system. It was like he woke up and was clear for the first time!

Do seek the guidance of a classical Homeopathic Doctor on this one!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Here are the results of my yogurt from rice milk attempt, #1:

It was not the most pleasant tasting stuff, and it was too liquidy....

Here is what I did incase you want a reference for your own 'trials'...

*Vanilla Rice Milk Yogurt (gravy) /bleh!*

6 Tbs Arrowroot powder
1 Liter (quart canning jar) (4 cups) rice milk (I used vanilla Rice Dream)
1 dry packet of yogurt starter
1/4 cup Rapadura
dash Vanilla Extract (organic)

I heated the rice milk to about 180 F, took it off the heat, then added in the sugar and stirred to dissolve. I let it cool a bit more, to about 140 deg F and removed 1/2 cup of the milk. 1/4 of the removed milk I mixed with the 6 Tbs of Arrowroot powder. The other 1/4 cup I reserved to mix with the yogurt culture.

I added in the dash of vanilla extract to the pot of rice milk and then stirred in the arrowroot powder to the rice milk. It almost instantly thickened up to a wonderful 'pudding consistancy'! Then I let it set, and tried not to stir it more. When it was closer to 115 deg F, I added in the last 1/4 cup rice milk that I mixed with the starter. Then I stirred to get it to mix well. Here is where I think it went wrong, consistancy wise. By continuing to stir and adding in the other liquids, it kinda thinned down to a 'gravy' consistancy.

I poured it into little half pint size canning jars and then incubated for 4 1/2 hours. When I opened one to see what it had done, it was still thin 'gravy' like consistancy'. I tasted it and well, it was definitely NOT something I'd be willing to eat. I refrigerated the other jars, jic it would set up overnight in the refrigerator, but it didn't and it still tastes kind gross to me.

So that was my attempt. However, I now know that I can make pudding with rice milk, if need be. Just don't keep stirring it! I do know that this is a tendency of arrowroot. It will thicken and if it stays hot or you keep stirring it, it'll thin back down. It might just be I need to find a way to not stir as much and cool it faster and the flavor could just be I don't like fermented rice milk flavor...


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## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catarina*
AJP, thanks for the information on oats. I was wondering about making oatcakes - an oatmeal cracker, a big part of the tradiional Scottish diet but usually very quickly made from ground oats, a hard fat, and water. The dough is very dry and crumbly and it couldn't be left to soak at all. I guess we don't need to get the maximum mineral content out of each serving of grain we eat, but I'd like to improve on my oatcake recipe. I was thinking about sprouting the groats and then blending and oven-drying, but I might not bother now.

I think you could still make them better (healthier) by soaking the oats, even if they don't sprout. Oats are high in phytates, and the processes I mentioned that oat groats have gone through wouldn't do much to reduce it, but soaking would. If you don't have a grain mill, just soak the whole oats in water with some whey or kefir added for at least 12 hours (in a warm-ish place), then drain well and grind them in a food processor (not sure a blender would work here), and either dry them to use in the recipe or if it's not too wet just add the other ingredients and proceed with the recipe. If you do have a grain mill, after soaking I'd dry them whole and then grind, you could more precisely control the moisture level in the recipe that way.

I've been wanting to make oat cakes, too. I've never had a "real" one, but they sound good when I read about them, I've tried a couple of recipes but they came out too chewy and cookie-like. I want that dry, crumbly texture. Would you mind sharing the recipe you use?


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intentfulady*
The pics are tiny. what is the point.

Which time did you feel better?

Now NT is yet another time. How do you look/feel in comparison?

OK, so you can see them. Good.

But, no, NT is not yet another time. I have stayed on the same diet, just a little less strict in terms of carbs, since the beginning of the candida diet. NT put a name to it.

I can't say I felt better in the second pic because I was going through hell in many ways. But my body was beginning to function better.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Is there a way to make the pictures bigger, Amanda?


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
Is there a way to make the pictures bigger, Amanda?

I'll work on it, but my husband is about to leave for two days.









edited to add: that sure is small and the resolution is terrible. i'll take down the link for now.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Oh MY!!

My dh is on nights right now, working 7 pm - 5 am. It sucks. But that switches next week to 7am - 3pm

Enjoy your time with him, right now!


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Well, after 6 days on my kitchen cupboard, I put the orangina in the fridge on Sunday. It's nicely carbonated now, but still quite bitter-tasting. I really wish I had tried the juice when I squeezed it because I don't know whether it was bitter to begin with. It smells like must in a primary ferment (for any of you who make wine) - so, not unpleasant. Hopefully the flavour will change for the better over time.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

I wanted to post this for all of you NT mamas, as an anti-soy source that has no reference to Sally Fallon
http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/soy.htm
In light of the recent soy thread, I'm sure you'll understand I didn't want to start that again - but I thought you all would find it interesting








Mandy


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Mountain mom,
Thanks for the thuja info. Since I don't know what I'm doing I'm going to seek out a homeopathic doc and hope for the best.

Moneca







blessed wife to Payton 9/29/00 and mom to Sierra Bear














1/01/04 and Kodiak







:


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Here is a description of the famed fermenter box, built by my DH:
It is basically a thin plywood box shell around a "box" made from thick insulated sheathing that we had around. http://www.aknightcompany.com/produc...s_overview.asp

The sheathing was cut and hot glued together to hold it in place as a box until the shell was built around it. Then the plywood was bolted to the sheathing, which helped hold it together, and serves as the attractive exterior. Then he put weatherstripping on the "lid" of the box to make it seal tight, and latches on the outside to cinch it down.

Inside is an electric food warming tray that we picked up at the thrift store for like a dollar. On top of the tray are 4 wide mouth mason jar screw bands. On top of the bands is a cookie sheet. This keeps the food off direct contact with the warming tray, and leaves space for air to circulate. So we put our food on top of the cookie sheet. The warming tray is hooked up to a reptile thermostat: http://www.zoomed.com/html/thermostats.php
That gives us a range of 70-110 deg F. It was just a dial gauge, so he put markings on the dial to show the different temperatures, and the thermostat is mounted to the exterior of the box.

Voila! Insulated temperature control at your fingertips!


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

This link is also interesting because it is vegan but strongly anti-soy:
http://www.vegan-straight-edge.org.uk/soyfood.htm

(He also comes to his own interesting conclusions on Dr. Price's research on another page on his site)


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatzMama*
I wanted to post this for all of you NT mamas, as an anti-soy source that has no reference to Sally Fallon
http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/soy.htm
In light of the recent soy thread, I'm sure you'll understand I didn't want to start that again - but I thought you all would find it interesting








Mandy










That's a great link Katzmama! I remember seeing it a while back and lost it (the link) when my computer crashed about 6 months ago. So thank you!

I was interested in doing the liver/gallbladder flush, that is also mentioned on that site, but it says to do the kidney and parasite cleanse first.

I know the liver flush is safe while Breastfeeding, but was worried about doing a parasite cleanse. Anyone else have experience with doing a parasite cleanse while breastfeeding?

Oh, and whenever I've put orange or lemon slices in any drink, if it sets around for some amount of time, the bitter aeromatics really come through. So I usually just juice them and don't put in peels (except for a slice of fresh in a glass at serving time.)

I'm guessing the 'pith' might be the culprit, over even the peels. If you went 'Martha' on the peels, and sliced them thinly so no pith is left (like when you make candied orange peels) then it might taste better and not have the really 'bitter' tang.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xenabyte*
I'm guessing the 'pith' might be the culprit, over even the peels. If you went 'Martha' on the peels, and sliced them thinly so no pith is left (like when you make candied orange peels) then it might taste better and not have the really 'bitter' tang.

It does taste a bit pith-y, but I don't see how any got in. I didn't use any peel, so the only way would be if some got in while I was juicing, but I really don't see how that's possible. Bah. Next time I'm definitely tasting the juice before I add anything - I used to record my wine-making stuff so meticulously, I can't believe how lazy I've gotten :LOL


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## Pilgrim (Dec 12, 2004)

Mountain Mom - Whoops! You are right, I DID mean MountainMon. Guess my eyes only *thought* they knew what they read.

MountainMon - HEY!!

I tried the lemon juice in the oatmeal, and it was MUCH better than the vinegar. I also added in some coconut milk, and DD wouldn't touch it! I didn't care much for it myself, but I can still eat it. I'll keep on working on the recipe.

I'm off to do a search now on milk-free, soy-free cultured foods. Does anyone care to point me to any threads out there that may have the info. I'm looking for? Thanks!


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## civmom511 (Jan 7, 2005)

Hello everyone. I'm really interested in making some kombucha and I was wondering if anyone knew how I could get a hold of a mushroom or any suggestions of good places to buy from etc. Any tips or pointers on how to make it would be greatly appreciated too. Thank you so much.
I'm the one that started that soy thread, and I have to say that I am quite pleased with it...wherever there is controversy there is people asking questions and that is exactly what I want. The information needs to be out there and stay out there, those who come with an open mind truly seeking knowledge will be rewarded with the truth. The pro-soy vegans and veggies are just looking for fights and not really seeking truth.
Xenabyte, I did a parasite cleanse and a 7 day fast (lemonade fast) after my little boy weaned...I wouldn't want to do it while breastfeeding, I felt like crap for about three day, headaches, tiredness, all kinds of digestive problems, runny nose, and a lot of scary looking things came out of me (looking in the toilet after a parasite cleanse is not for the faint of heart). But I did feel much much better afterwards and it made me really think about the type of crap I was putting in my body which led me to the NT/TF way of life...so it all worked out good.


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

AJP, here's a normal, non-soaked oatcake recipe that will let you know what they taste like. It uses what Scots call "oatmeal": ground, not rolled oats. You can get a good effect by whizzing jumbo rolled oats in the blender carefully. Oatcakes are made with coarse, medium or fine oatmeal so any grade is ok, it's down to what you prefer.

Traditional Highland Oatcakes

Ingredients
4 oz (125g) medium oatmeal
2 teaspoons bacon fat, lard, butter, or coconut fat. (Smoked bacon fat gives a lovely flavour)
2 pinches of baking soda
One half teaspoon salt
3 to 4 tablespoons hot water
Additional oatmeal for kneading

Method
Mix the oatmeal, salt and bicarbonate and fat together. Stir well, and add enough hot water to make into a stiff paste - the water will melt the fat and help to blend it in, so no need to mix it in thoroughly beforehand. Cover a surface in oatmeal and turn the mixture onto this. Work quickly as the paste is difficult to work if it cools. Divide into two and roll one half into a ball and knead with hands covered in oatmeal to stop it sticking. Roll out to around quarter inch thick. Put a plate which is slightly smaller than the size of your pan over the flattened mixture and cut round to leave a circular oatcake. Cut into quarters (also called farls) and place in a heated pan which has been lightly greased. Cook for about 3 minutes until the edges curl slightly, turn, and cook the other side. Get ready with another oatcake while the first is being cooked.

Once they have cooked (dried and browned a bit), cook in the oven at 375 for around 20-30 minutes on a baking tray or pre-heated baking stone until dry and brown.

Note: The baking soda is a traditional ingredient, but many oatcake makers leave it out. I do, because I think it gives a soapy taste and no discernable leavening.

As you can see, it's the oven drying which gives them the dry, crisp texture. You may be able to just add that step to your own recipe for a better result.

So I'm going to try soaking groats, then, and see how that goes. I'll let you know if it works out well. I did look at some studies which showed very little reduction in phytic acid from soaking whole grains, the benefit only occuring form soaking wheat and rye flours. I wish someone else would do the research for me!


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Pilgrim, have you tried reducing the salt in your oatmeal? It was almost inedible the first time I made it. I add a few shakes of salt if I think of it now.

Civimom511, your enthusiasm is great, but I just wanted to point something out. Saying you are pleased with a thread that turned into heated arguments (as opposed to civil debate) because it gets people thinking, then painting all soy-promoting veg*ns with the same brush as "just looking for fights and not really seeking truth" seems hypocritical, IMO. I'm not interested in seeking out soy info because I have already researched it and decided it's wrong for me. Does that mean I'm not interested in seeking out the truth?

Has there been a discussion here about doing sourdough in a bread machine?

Ooooh, I'm doing the happy dance! My meat lady also does raw milk. She thought she wouldn't have enough for me until the spring, but she called this week saying she has enough extra for me now. Yay! And she delivers it. Double yay! And it's less than org. milk in the store. Yay again!







Unfortunately, she's still short on duck eggs, but I'm on the list.


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

Pilgrim, when I read that you added coconut milk to your oatmeal I wondered if you thought oatmeal must be served with milk. My 5yo hates milk on oatmeal, so I just give it to her "straight up", with some maple syrup drizzled on. I also plop a pat of butter on it, but obviously that won't work for you.

I made pancakes this morning...ground the spelt last night. The kids were really intrigued with this step, since I have a handgrinder. I'm not sure they were as thrilled with the flavor, especially the above-mentioned 5yo (who regards most new things with suspicion). She DID eat an entire pancake, and was partway through another before she said, "I think this one has too much yogurt." The left overs are drying in the oven now. Crispy almonds are drying in the dehydrator, walnuts are soaking in brine, 9yo is working on math (we homeschool), I have my knitting here...what a wonderfully crunchy, healthy day in our household.


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## civmom511 (Jan 7, 2005)

Brisen- I'm sorry, I didn't really mean it in such a negative light...I have just found that most (but certainly not all) Vegans or Vegetarians usually already have their mind made up and closed when it comes to the subject of soy. And there are quite a few who post just trying to start arguments, or trying to purposely cause problems, they aren't posting to seek any knowledge or to add anything worthwhile to the debate...those are the people I am talking about. And you don't have to seek out the truth Brisen, you already found it or else you would be at the NT thread







. I put up that post to put out information that I believe can help others, I don't like having petty arguments with people (esp. with those whose minds are already closed, or who are arguing for the sake of argument) and I feel that if someone is truly seeking info. about soy then the info. I posted will help them. People are responsible for their own actions and if they want to argue over this then that's their decision. My intention is not to insult people or tell them they are wrong, if they don't agree with the post they don't have to read it or post a response...like I said, I am not the argumentative or debative type, I just want the information out there to be utilized by those who can appreciate it.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Hi ladies. I'm just popping in for a bit. It's so exciting to see so many wonderful ladies here. I wish I could eat grains because you all have some super info and ideas. I'll mourn the loss a little more today.

civmom511 -- In my opinion it's not really appropriate to discuss other people's motivations, intentions, open-mindedness, etc. There are a whole lot of people here who don't buy into the same nutritional philosophy but I certainly don't find them, as a group, to deserve such criticism. And even if I did, it's still not really appropriate. I, for one, have a great deal of respect for people who care enough about their health or the environment to make major lifestyle commitments, even if I am making different decisions in making my own statement.


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## Pilgrim (Dec 12, 2004)

I am sitting here just cracking up!







Brisen and Queen Gwen, thank you also for your advice on the oatmeal. What's so funny to me is the amount of effort I (and now y'all!) am putting into ONE dish! And it's OATMEAL! Bwahahahahahaha!!

The salt content was okay I think. I had added in coconut milk to try the flavor. I love coconuts, but apparently DD does not. Oh, I had lots of leftover oatmeal from yesterday so today I added in some shredded coconut and ate it up. The flavor today was quite good I must say, but DD still won't eat it. So, I'll work on finding a way to serve it that she will like. I will definitely try to serve it up plain with a little cinnamon & honey!

Our old method was to cook rolled oats in vanilla rice milk, and sweeten with honey and cinnamon. It was pretty good that way!

OK, last night I spent WAY too many hours looking for dairy free stuff. I found Xenabyte's Kefir thread - Xenabyte - you ROCK! Thanks for putting all that stuff out there!

Here's my basic question (for today







)that I'm hoping someone can help me with. Many of the NT recipes call for whey or kefir. Sometimes she gives the alternative of lemon juice or vinegar - and that isn't always appetizing for some dishes, and it isn't always an option. So, what can I use instead? I am thinking about getting some water kefir grains and making some kefir or juice. If I *were* to do this, would that be an acceptable substitute in those situations?

One recipe that comes to mind is the rice milk. I'd like to make it, but it calls for whey.

Thanks!


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Want to offer my advice on the parasite cleanse question. Parasites are scavengers and will try to find other hosts if rejected from their current host, which means they will flee into and onto the next closest person. If you are breastfeeding.....









I have a killer parasite cleanse that I get my clients to do and boy oh boy you should see what comes out.

Again....







!!!


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Pilgrim -- try the fried mush! My kids are so-so about oatmeal, and it must be toped with honey, maple syrup, fruit, cinnamon, whatever. But they will eat fried mush plain.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
I have a killer parasite cleanse that I get my clients to do and boy oh boy you should see what comes out.

Mountan Mom, can you describe your killer parasite cleanse? Is it like the Hulda Clark method? I want to do one, but I'm waiting until DD's weaned for the aforementioned reasons.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Toraji, It is a cleanse based on the cycles of the moon, using different herbals and different foods. I will post it up tomorrow! Thanks for asking!


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## civmom511 (Jan 7, 2005)

GaleForce- That'e the great thing about America isn't it? I can state my opinion, and you can state that it's inappropriate. We all have different views on things. If someone is setting out to find a healthy diet do you not agree that it would have to be one that contains all the nutrients and minerals the body needs to maintain health and homestasis and have all those nutrients and minerals in a highly usable form? To consume any other diet would be at best a waste of time, money, and energy and at worst a death sentance. The scientific community has stated for years that all 8 essential amino acids only occur together in one source...and that's animal products, all 8 have to be eaten together because they depend on each other to be utilized and absorbed, when the body has all 8 it can make the other 14 that it needs, but if just one of the 8 is missing the body can do nothing. Usable vitamin B12 is found _only_ in animal products. Animal fat is the _only_ usable source of vitamin A and vitamin D, all vitamin absorption and utilization depends on having lots of vitamin A & D...if our levels are low, the body can not absorb other vitamins or minerals. This is the way our bodies our and there is nothing we can do about it, but if we want even a chance at living a long healthy life we have to give our bodies what they need or disease will happen...maybe in a few months, maybe in a few decades, but it will happen. Our bodies are amazing machines but they can only survive on sub-optimal nutrition for so long...you wouldn't expect a diesel truck to run on unleaded gas. Now I am not saying a meat free diet is bad, there are times when it is very good for the body to eat a light diet of just veggies, fruits and properly prepared grains, it allows it to heal and detox and especially in out toxic overloaded society a person does need to fast to promote health in the body. I think that is why a lot people feel better at first when they become vegetarian or vegan...their bodies are getting rid of a toxic overload. But to continue on it will cause nutritional deficiencies and eventually disease. And this is why I call "some" (not all) vegetarians and vegans close-minded, the evidence is there and the facts speak for themselves. I guess I just can't comprehend why people would want to put time and effort into trying to be healthy and have it all be for nothing and eventually lead to disease because they were depriving their bodies of necessary nutrients on purpose, that is just craziness to me. Even eating the NT way it's hard enough trying to keep yourself healthy, no matter what diet you choose you still have to supplement it (I use the Garden Of Life products, HSO's rock!) and that's because of all the toxins that are around us everyday...in our air, our food, our water, our clothes and their still there even if we do choose organic. Our bodies need all the nutrients we can give them, not to be purposely deprived of them. It's not a matter of philosphy (or it shouldn't be) it's a matter of our bodies needing certain things to be healthy and there is no way around that.


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## earthchick (Sep 30, 2004)

Just realized I haven't posted to the January thread (at least I don't think I have) - been lurking though and enjoying it. You guys keep me inspired. I've been making yogurt every few days now that I have a yogurt-maker - am loving it. New favorite breakfast is plain yogurt with dried cherries and slivered almonds - yum! Fed my ds's yogurt for the first time this morning (the picky one actually seemed to like it!).

Am looking forward to reading mountain mom's parasite cleanse!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Hey, DH is home from being gone all week and I'm SOOO happy today









So, I have neglected a few questions and need to say thank you to:

Toraji for posting the info on the 'ferment box'. That sounds great. I hadn't even though of using a reptile heater. What a great idea!! It also sounds very similar to building a 'solar oven' and I have most of the parts around here for doing that. Now to add in a 'reptile therm/heater' and I should have a nice 'dehydrator/fermenter'. Thank you again.









I would also be very interested in the info on the herbal parasite cleanse. but OMG the thought of them attacking the DC if my body rejects them is just GROSS. Has anyone used (or even heard of) 'zappers' and if so, have you used one? This would kill them, in vitro, so to speak, then the body could flush them out that way...so no cross contamination issues....

Oh, regarding the question about how I make my 'ginger water Kefir', it's in the 'Got Kefir' thread that is now archived, if you can't find it by searching, I can post it. It's just water, organic sugar and slices of fresh or dehydrated ginger. Let set for two days, and pour it into bottles and refrigerate.

/does happy dance. I went to the mall yesterday while my dad watched the kids, and I was quite happy to see that I was almost two dress sizes smaller than pre preg!! I bought some 'hot' high heals, a red fitted sweater top and a short black skirt. Tonight we are having DH's office 'holiday party' and OMG, last time they saw me I was preggers, and carrying a LOT more weight. So I'm very excited to be one year later and SEVERAL dress sizes smaller, pregnancy not withstanding! Thanks to NT/coconut oil/Kefir and who knows all what







But SOMETHING is working for me...


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I will post the cleanse tonight, just checking in real quick

I have one request...Civmom...can you cut you posts into paragraphs? You have so much good info, but my eyes go zooey trying to read it!

Thanks sooo much!


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Don't mean to invade the NT thread but, I just HAD to reply to civmom. You SERIOUSLY need to climb off your soap box. If you actually believe that all veg*ns will become diseased then you are very misinformed. Do you know who Donald Watson is? He coined the term vegan in 1944. He was a vegan for decades and lived well into his nineties, and not only did he live into his nineties he lived WELL, he wasn't suffering of any crippling disease or forced to depend on others to take care of him. So you see, not every vegan is unhealthy. That's just one example of many others. Next time be sure to get all the facts before you go off on your tangents.

Okay, that's all...


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Mz Libbie, I agree that not all vegans are sick and deathly but couldn't you have pm'd CivMom? Its her only that you have issue with, not everyone on this thread, right?


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

civmom -- you have misunderstood me. it's a respect issue, not an issue of who is right and who is wrong on matters of health.

Quote:

The pro-soy vegans and veggies are just looking for fights and not really seeking truth.
The vegan lifestyle holds very high principles that cannot be denied. People should at least be given respect for that. Whether the diet itself is sustainable over generations is a whole separate issue and many of us on the NT thread believe that it is not sustainable, but that doesn't mean we should be making blanket statements about vegans, their intentions, their blind spots, or whatever. It is a matter of basic decency. But you are right, here in America you can act anyway you want.

And for all of the veg*ns who will read this thread now: we all actually have a whole lot in common in terms of ecology and nutrition. OK, so we have one major difference. But it strikes me as odd that we would be each other's enemies here -- the bad guys we should be focusing on are corporate farmers, cattle yard owners, etc. It looks like there's good info pointing that direction on some of the other threads, so that's cool. I just don't see much point in wasting a lot of time getting upset at one another.

edited to add: my tone is poor here -- i am multitassking and actually cut some programming code into this message earlier.







: It struck me that I sound like I am lashing out at veg*ns. That's so not my intent. I like you guys, we just have a difference of opinion on one key dietary issue.







And now my work time is almost up.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Gale Force


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## earthchick (Sep 30, 2004)

Props for Gale Force.









(and ditto what mountain mom said about cutting posts into paragraphs. Started to say something myself but was afraid people might think I just had a short attention span and couldn't read if things weren't broken down into little chunks. But it does get hard on a computer screen to keep up with an ultra-long, non-paragraphed post... )


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

Good job Gale Force. I wanted to respond more to Civmom's past 2 posts but just haven't had time, I would really like to get back to sharing recipes and food ideas and supporting each other on the NT path. I'd like to spend a lot less time on judging other people's nutritional choices.

We all followed a path to NT, for many of us here part of that path included being veggies. Myself included, I was veggie for 11 years. I don't regret that choice because if it had not been for my quest of environmentally friendly food ways and health that made me go veggie I would never have discovered NT.

So why don't we focus on supporting each other and discuss other people's diets somewhere else. All this kind of veggie bashing does is drive people away from us.

So onto another topic. Sometime back I remember someone discussing their nails being brittle. My nails have gotten pretty brittle and I have some ridges & spots. Any ideas? I've been eating a good balance of foods but I must be missing something, but what is it? Thanks


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

Okay, the crispy walnuts are in the refrigerator, the crispy almonds are in a glass jar on the counter (this isn't going to work, though, because 9yo dd keeps eating all of them...I need to hide them if I want them to last), the yogurt is draining.

Next issue: does anyone sprout wheat or spelt berries, then dry them and THEN grind them? Dh has issues with yogurt soaking of grains, no one here wants sourdough, so I'm trying to come up with something else. If you do this, what grinder do you use? How do you dry them? Any other tips or ideas would be appreciated.

BTW, I do better with posts broken into short paragraphs because I DO have a short attention span. Of course, I'm terrible at breaking my own posts into short paragraphs....


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
Mz Libbie, I agree that not all vegans are sick and deathly but couldn't you have pm'd CivMom? Its her only that you have issue with, not everyone on this thread, right?

















Yeah, I should have done that. Sorry.


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## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Queen Gwen*
Next issue: does anyone sprout wheat or spelt berries, then dry them and THEN grind them? Dh has issues with yogurt soaking of grains, no one here wants sourdough, so I'm trying to come up with something else. If you do this, what grinder do you use? How do you dry them? Any other tips or ideas would be appreciated.

I do this. I've had limited success sprouting spelt, I wonder if it likes different conditions than modern wheat, but regular wheat (soft or hard) is a breeze. I let it go just to the point that the sprout has barely emerged (in my house, which rarely gets below about 60 degrees even at night, this means 12 hours of soaking and another 12-24 hours of sprouting). Then I spread them out on a baking pan and dry them in the warming drawer of my oven. I grind them in my Family grain mill. It makes a nice flour, with a very mild malt flavor. I make all kinds of bread products from it, quick breads (including muffins), yeasted breads, desserts, etc. Soft wheat is better for non-kneaded things, hard wheat for kneaded. I typically end up using just a bit more flour than the recipe calls for when using the sprouted flour, it seems to not soak up quite as much liquid as unsprouted flour (probably something to do with starch conversion).


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hrheka*
So onto another topic. Sometime back I remember someone discussing their nails being brittle. My nails have gotten pretty brittle and I have some ridges & spots. Any ideas? I've been eating a good balance of foods but I must be missing something, but what is it? Thanks

This is a great page all about using your fingernails as a health diagnostic tool: http://www.nspforum.com/faq/bbs.cgi?read=1036


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
This is a great page all about using your fingernails as a health diagnostic tool: http://www.nspforum.com/faq/bbs.cgi?read=1036

Great site! I knew that all of these things had meaning, just couldn't find a description. I doubt I looked very hard.

Quote:

Fingernails With Grooves: Grooves or dips that cross the nail horizontally indicate a recent health problem or emotional or nutritional disturbance. The presence of more than one recessed groove can point to parasites in the intestines and/or a chronic weakness in intestinal function.

If there is a groove on the index finger, this often highlights a tendency to develop skin disease. A groove on the ring finger is associated with eye problems, bronchitis, or respiratory disease; *on the middle finger, with a loss of muscular strength;* on the little finger, with problems in the throat, nerves, or gallbladder. A groove on the thumb points to a low level of basic life force.
Yep, I've wondered, but didn't really need my fingers to tell me that one. I was incredibly strong before Frederick and have just begun in the last 6-9 months to exercise again in any real way. And even now I don't have access to a gym. I need to buy some weights. I leg-pressed over 300 pounds on the day before I found out I was pregnant.







: Of course, I thought I wasn't pg, and decided to take out my frustration at the gym.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Is it bad if I have teeny crescents on my thumbs, and none on any other fingers? <nervous laugh>


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Here is the cleanse.

So I want to first caution, in a big big way, that before you attempt this cleanse, please be sure that you have completed a lower bowel cleanse, worked at toning the upper and lower digestive systems and you are having regular, complete bowel movements. If there is any indication of constipation at all, do not do a parasite cleanse.

What constitutes as constipation as well....eliminating every 8 - 16 hours is considered regular bowel movements, anything less than that is considered constipated and indicates that the digestive system needs to be fine tuned in some way.

Supplies you will need:
1) Powerful Anthelmintic herbs. I have a tincture I use which contains the following: Wormwood sage, Malefern root, Black Walnut Hull, Pumpkin Seed, Clove bud, Fennel seed and Thyme leaf. You could use any of the first three together or seperate in a tea as well but boy it would be bitter.

2) Garlic cloves and olive oil

3) Fennel seed

4) Senna pods

5) Ginger root

6) Pumpkin seeds.

The program is a three month program, but you are only cleansing actively 2 days before the full moon and five days after for a total of 8 days a month.

Once you have prepared your body for the cleanse begin by charting out on your calender the full moon time of the three month timeframe in which you plan to do the cleanse.

*All eight days of the cleanse:* a) Three times a day, take 35 drops of the tincture in a glass of water.

b) Eat lots of raw pumpkin seeds

c) Upon retiring for the night coat a garlic bulb in olive oil and use as an anal suppository

*The first three days and last three days of the cleanse:* Consume 1 cup of ginger root decoction and senna pod infusion 3 times a day.

*The last two days of the cleanse* Drink 1 cup of fennel seed tea three times a day.

So here is the break down.

Day1: Tincture, garlic suppository, ginger root decoction, senna pod infusion and pumpkin seeds
Day2: as above
Day3: as above
Day4: Tincture, garlic supp. and pumpkin seeds
Day5: as above
Day6: Tincture, garlic supp., pumpkin seeds, ginger root decoction, senna pod infusion.
Day7: as above but add fennel seed tea
Day8: as above

Then repeat at the full moon time two more times.

*Please please remember, if you have any bowel congestion AT ALL, you MUST tone and cleanse the bowel first before trying a parasite cleanse. Congestion is when you are not eliminating 8 - 16 hours everyday. One time a day bowel movement is not good enough. This is very serious. If you attempt the pararsite cleanse without proper bowel flow, you will kill the parasite but leave the carcases in the bowel to fester and form bumps and sores in the colon wall. OUCH!*

Please ask any questions you have!


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

How do you do the lower bowel cleanse and tone the upper and lower digestive system? I'm very very new to the concept of cleansing, and although I probably will be pregnant or nursing for a long time, I hope to file the information away for future reference.
Also, what types of cleanses are safe for a nursing mom?

Mandy


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

There are several ways of toning, building and cleanse the lower and upper digestion. It really depends on you, how you eat, and your needs.

There really, IMO, isn't a cleanse that is suitable for nursing moms. Juicing is very effective as restoring balance without purging too much out too fast.

Its been three years since I cleanse and BOY I need to. But I am CLWing with dd sooooo, who knows.

I do alot of different herbals to restore balance when needed but I do not purge toxins, its just too dangerous, again IMO.

HTH..I know I am being vague on the build, tone and cleanse part but I dont' know your history too well.


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## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catarina*
AJP, here's a normal, non-soaked oatcake recipe that will let you know what they taste like.

So I'm going to try soaking groats, then, and see how that goes. I'll let you know if it works out well. I did look at some studies which showed very little reduction in phytic acid from soaking whole grains, the benefit only occuring form soaking wheat and rye flours. I wish someone else would do the research for me!

Thanks! I'll give it a try with soaked/dried/ground oat groats and see how it goes.

As for soaking whole grains - hmmm, I can't see how soaking whole oat groats would be very much different from soaking steel-cut oats. The groats are soft after soaking. I'll poke around a bit about that. If you have any links to those studies, I'd be interested in them.


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## Pilgrim (Dec 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
Want to offer my advice on the parasite cleanse question. Parasites are scavengers and will try to find other hosts if rejected from their current host, which means they will flee into and onto the next closest person. If you are breastfeeding.....









I have a killer parasite cleanse that I get my clients to do and boy oh boy you should see what comes out.

Again....







!!!

I have a question about this. First of all -







PARASITES?!?! I never dreamed I could be living with PARASITES!!!! Ok, now that I've read up on them a bit, would it be safe to assume that IF I do have parasites that DD would automatically have them - being breastfed and sleeping in my bed, etc, etc.? I am so freaked out about this!

Oh, and can you explain why the cycles of the moon are important in the cleanse? My DH will totally think I've flipped my lid if I tell him this without a reason! :LOL

Oh another question - should the whole family do the parasite cleanse at the same time? (OK, I know that I can't do this while BF, but for later....)

Thanks!


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I've been thinking about how to store stock. Glass doesn't seem to work too well in the freezer. I've been using plastic milk bags, but hopefully my days of buying milk at the store are over. Would pressure canning be bad for stock? I know NT generally discourages canning, but I wonder if it's different since it's meat. Canned tuna and sardines don't seem to be a problem.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I bought two kinds of butter when I last went to the grocery store. One was organic butter -- the ingredients are organic pasteurized cream and sea salt from the Red Sea. The other was Normandy-style cultured butter. The ingredients are cream and bacterial cultures. Now, I don't know what the regulations are exactly, but I'm assuming that since it doesn't say pasteurized, it's not. I like the fact that the cultured butter is cultured, likely raw, and unsalted. But it's not organic. Is there any compelling reason to buy one or the other? Oh, the flavour of the cultured butter is IMO pretty mild, even though the package says it is distinct. And I find that while usually I don't care for unsalted butter just on a piece of bread, the cultured butter did have enough flavour that it was fine without salt.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Brisen,
I find I digest and assimilate the cultured butter better. The small bumps on the backs of my arms used to flare when I ate butter, even pastured organic, but since I switched to cultured, no more bumps from butter!

Okay Pilgram, this is going to be really







: but parasites, particulairly pinworms come out of the anus onto the crack of your butt and lay their eggs during the fullmoon, sooo if your butt itches more or you feel more, hmmm, movement in that area, then yup, that parasites.

If you do cleanse, everyone in the house should, you are right about that. Even your pets. The parasites will move from host to host.

And another tidbit, we all have parasites. Any living creature does. Some more than others depending on your diet.

Mmmmm parasites.


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

Butter - I've got a choice here of cultured French butter, or entirely grass-fed Anchor butter which is not organic and shipped from New Zealand, or raw butter which is not organic and I don't know how grass fed but I think pretty much as it has a strong flavour. Right now I'm going for the raw butter. It has a pretty strong flavour and colour and I think has a good vitamin content, but I personally love the flavour of the cultured French butter.


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

AJP, I can't figure out how to post a link. I did some half-assed research Googling ' "phytic acid" "phytate" reduction grains' , that kind of phrase. Toraji posted a page of links to research some time ago.


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## moneca (Sep 5, 2004)

Mountain mom,
Thanks for the info on the cleanse. I've been looking forward to reading it even though I'm BF and have to wait. I've got to ask a question that may be common sense to everyone else. Why the garlic suppository instead of just consuming raw garlic? Thanks for posting the info. Also, I've always found this thread to be supportive and encouraging as well as inforamative. Glad to see it return to that.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Hi Moneca,
The garlic suppositories are used that way because thats where the parasites are residing during the full moon. They travel out of their cozy nest in your lower bowel and down into the anus area to lay their eggs for the month. So putting a garlic bulb there will anihilate them on target!

Eating garlic during the cleanse would be awesome too. In fact during the cleanse target your diet toward expelling the critters too, by eating lots of aromatic herbal foods and dense proteins.

An example of a good parasite meal is a rare steak, broth with lots of garlic, rosemary and thyme and a salad with phyllium seed dressing.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen*
I've been thinking about how to store stock. Glass doesn't seem to work too well in the freezer. I've been using plastic milk bags, but hopefully my days of buying milk at the store are over. Would pressure canning be bad for stock? I know NT generally discourages canning, but I wonder if it's different since it's meat. Canned tuna and sardines don't seem to be a problem.

I just store mine in plastic freezer bags, one cup in each bag, with a twist-tie. NT says plastic is OK for freezing or dry stuff. Then, when I want to use it, I run warm water over the bag to release it anywhere it's stuck and just put it in a pot to thaw.

Mandy


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

yea! I made waffles this morning with my soaked grains. They were great. Now, I need to know, do I need to soak, then sprout, then dry them for them to be really good, or is just soaking them prior to use enough? I soaked them in my Kefir.

Mountain mom, can you post a link to the cleansing info you are talking about? I am also breastfeeding, so I won't be doing a cleanse any time soon. Actually, I've been trying to do a cleanse for 7 years, but I've either been pregnant or nursing that whole time, so have put it off.

Thanks for the information/experiences! This is great stuff.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Gardenmommy, I can't post a link since the information comes from my herbal practice. The cleanse I posted is the one I have formulated for clients in my practice. BTW...I am a Master Herbalist.


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## moss (Feb 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatzMama*
I just store mine in plastic freezer bags, one cup in each bag, with a twist-tie. NT says plastic is OK for freezing or dry stuff. Then, when I want to use it, I run warm water over the bag to release it anywhere it's stuck and just put it in a pot to thaw.

Mandy

really?

there's so much up to date info about plastics online, i personally dont trust plastics at all for food. when i use plastics, i know i'm taking a risk

i freeze stock in glass jars, i just make sure that they're not very full, and give the liquid plenty of room to expand. lately though, i've been using up stock as fast as i can make it! love those winter soups and stews.


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## Pilgrim (Dec 12, 2004)

I've been meaning to ask about food storage. I'm still using Tupperware!







:

I have at least begun to transfer foods to a glass bowl before microwaving them. I also bought some lids to fit my Corelle cereal bowls, but they aren't "see-through", so I have all these bowls in my fridge and I don't know what's in them without peeking.

Anyway, I'd like to know where y'all get your glass jars, what do they look like? Are we talking regular canning jars?

Thanks!

Oh, and thanks for the great info Mountain Mom! I just had NO CLUE!


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

Mountain Mom, I understand that you can't post a link to that info. (unless you wanted to try downloading your brain..., just don't ask me to do that, cuz at this point, I don't think you'd find too much in there that's worthwhile...)

Can you recommend a book covering that subject?

Thanks!


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...03210?v=glance

This is a link to a fantastic book about bowel care. It not only deals with parasites but overall bowel health.

Any other book that I could offer to you about parasites would be very clinical and too intense IMO.

Learning via the Guide to better bowel care is amazing. This is a very comprehensive book about digestive issues.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

mountain mom! You rock! I'm saving your parasite cleanse to my hard drive for use when DD finally weans.

On the soaking of whole grains...as far as I can remember, the studies that did not show reduction in phytates with soaking were with rolled oats. I was actually going to post about how modern rolled oats from the store have had their phytase (the enzyme that breaks down phytates) denatured due the rolling/steaming/etc process. So soaking them isn't going to do a damn thing unless you have oats that still contain their natural phytase.

BUT....these studies were just doing the soak with water I believe. I don't think they were soaking in whey. I am guessing (but am not an expert on this) that whey contains something that breaks down the phytates. So soaking in whey would break down the phytates even in grains that have been somewhat processed, like store bought flours. Don't quote me on this though, because I don't know for sure. But that is what makes sense to me, since the whey is a product of lacto-fermentation, that starting a lacto-ferment with the grains/flour would break down phytates even without natural phytase present. I have no idea how vinegar or lemon juice relates to this.

So then, you can do the water soak, but it won't work for grains that have been processed due to the phytase being denatured. Read this PDF about how just water soaking will not work on modern rolled oats: http://www.soilandhealth.org/06clipfile/MuesliSml.pdf

On freezing/canning stock: we just use wide-mouth mason jars and leave enough headspace for freezing. We make sure that the broth is cool before putting it in the freezer though, otherwise you have too much difference in the inside and outside temperature which causes the glass to break. But if you wanted to pressure can the stock, it should be fine. You don't want to pressure can any meats because it changes the protein structure to make it less digestible (this applies even to canned salmon and sardines unfortunately) but the broth wouldn't have enough protein in there to matter IMHO.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen*
Is it bad if I have teeny crescents on my thumbs, and none on any other fingers? <nervous laugh>

I have this too. Supposedly the healthiest people have big moons that gradually get smaller as you go towards the pinky. If I remember correctly, it could indicate thyroid issues.

ETA: found it!
"On the thumbnail, 25% of the nail bed should be covered by a moon. This means that your calcium intake is good. (The moons should decrease in size a little on the next 3 fingers. (If no moons appear, or you only have small moons, your parathyroid glands are not sending the calcium to where it needs to go in the body. (A red haze over the moons indicate circulatory weakness. (The pinky finger should have no moon. If it does, check the heart."


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## lao80 (Feb 24, 2004)

I finally made crispy pecans. Man, they are really good. Half of them were eaten just while I was cooling them! This is the first time I've done it because I'm afraid of the $$$ from leaving the oven on for 24 hours.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Yeah...I LOVE the crispy nuts (I've done pecans, almonds + walnuts so far).









So a while ago I posted about my IBS/lactose intolerence







I'm beginning to think that I might have a thyroid issue. Not sure if the two are related but I also have major hair loss and crazy skin itchies, which I've read can be thyroid-related.

DH was trying to convince me that I'm allergic to soaked and/or sprouted grains...and I kept thinking PLEASE NO...I already don't eat meat...right now I can't digest dairy...I need my grains!!

So I'm working on a sourdough starter. It was going great for several days but yesterday when I checked it there was a lot of liquid on the top. Does this mean I need to feed it more? Or maybe that my house is too cold?


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

I'm not sure if it means that there is too much liquid, but mine always has liquid on the top after sitting for a while, I think you can just stir it in again. I'm still in the experimental stage with my sourdough.









mountain mom, that sounds like a good cleanse--dh and I recently did the one from drnatura.com. But I got nervous that I might have ovulated and got pregnant so I quit it early JIC. But I'm pretty sure it did some good. :LOL

So what is the concensus here regarding chicken stock--lid off or lid on??


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

Thank you Mountain Mom! That is exactly what I was hoping for.

Toraji, thank you for the info on soaking. The grains I soaked for my waffles were brown rice, millet, amaranth, and rolled oats. It sounds like soaking my oats doesn't improve them much. I think I might still soak them, on the off chance that the kefir does do something for them!

I'm not keen on sourdough. Is the sourdough that I keep reading about actually edible, like normal bread? Or is my sprouted Ezekial 4:9 bread good enough?


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama*
So I'm working on a sourdough starter. It was going great for several days but yesterday when I checked it there was a lot of liquid on the top. Does this mean I need to feed it more? Or maybe that my house is too cold?









I really go by smell. If it smells good to you then IMO its still good. Just feed it up a little with a bit more flour.

By about 7 days, even earlier in warmer weather your starter is ready to go, so use it to make bread or keep it inert at a cooler temperature until you are ready to bake bread.

What I do is feed up a starter for bread for about 5 - 7 days. When its ready then I make bread with most of it, save about 1 tablespoon to begin another batch.

That way its bubbling all the time. Don't know if that is a 'textbook' way to do it, but it works for me.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gardenmama*
I'm not keen on sourdough. Is the sourdough that I keep reading about actually edible, like normal bread? Or is my sprouted Ezekial 4:9 bread good enough

We love the 4:9 bread products around here. IMO they rock. I have tried to make a sprouted bread similiar to that for about 5 years with NOOOOO luck.

I can duplicate Manna bread but not 4:9. It is super!


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

Toraji, thank you for the information about oats. One of the studies I looked at said that adding 10% wheat or rye to another grain or legume would offer enough phytase to break down the phytates, but I'm not sure how that would work as porridge - not nice is my guess. I feel a bit stuck with oats now.


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

Tweetybird, I do my chicken stock lid on. I simmer about 24 hrs, and the lid fits such that I don't need to add water during that time.


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

Just subscribing (having finally worked my way through all this month's thread!). I've been slowly introducing NT things for a couple of months. Very slowly. My main improvement is raw milk







which I now love and couldn't do without, though dh won't touch it for fear of listeria.

I've been gradually doing some stock, though I still haven't made it to a butcher's to buy bones for beef stock, and the woman in the supermarket meat counter gave me the weirdest look...

So, I need something other than water to soak my oats with for porridge? Traditional Scottish porridge is just oats, salt and water so it tastes weird with anything else -especially yoghurt :LOL

I love my sea salt and feeling free to add it to food.


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## myjo (Feb 14, 2004)

Have any of you tried drinking colostrum? My soon-to-be goat just lost her poor babies to the freezing cold (sob) and she has colostrum right now that nobody is drinking. I wonder if it would taste alright?

Also, What is the ideal temperature for simmering broth? So far, all my broth has been cloudy and/or not very flavorful. I can't seem to find the right level to simmer it, it's either just sitting there doing nothing but keeping warm, or it's bubbling too much. How should it look when it's simmering?

I've been very pleased with my vinegar soaked oatmeal. I rinse out the soak water though. I wonder if that changes the nutrition? It just taste like mild sourdough the way I make it.

And thanks for the fingernail link! I've searched and searched for something like that!


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catarina*
Toraji, thank you for the information about oats. One of the studies I looked at said that adding 10% wheat or rye to another grain or legume would offer enough phytase to break down the phytates, but I'm not sure how that would work as porridge - not nice is my guess. I feel a bit stuck with oats now.

My guess is that if you use something lacto-fermented like whey, kefir, yogurt, rejuvelac, etc. then the lacto-beasties will break down the phytates. I think the studies were only done with water soaking, in which case you'd need natural phytase to be present.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Found some studies over at PubMed about fermentation to decrease phytic acid content:
1: Nahrung. 1995;39(4):282-7.
Related Articles, Links

Fermentation of rice-bengal gram dhal blends with whey: changes in phytic acid content and in vitro digestibility of starch and protein.

Sharma A, Khetarpaul N.
Department of Foods and Nutrition, Haryana Agricultural University, Hisar, India.

Whey fermentation of various rice and bengal gram dhal blends prepared by mixing them in different proportions at 35 degrees C for 18 h brought about a significant decline in phytic acid content. Phytic acid content in various blends decreased to the extent of 23 to 36 per cent over the control values. Whey incorporation as well as fermentation improved the starch and protein digestibility (in vitro) of all the rice-bengal gram dhal mixtures. Improvement in starch and protein digestibility is related to the reduction in phytic acid content, as this antinutrient is known to inhibit amylolysis and proteolysis. A significant negative correlation found between phytic acid and digestibility of starch and protein strengthens our findings.

PMID: 7477244 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

----------------------------------
1: Nutr Health. 2002;16(3):173-81.
Related Articles, Links

Effect of probiotic fermentation on antinutrients and in vitro protein and starch digestibilities of indigenously developed RWGT food mixture.
Sindhu SC, Khetarpaul N.
Department of Foods and Nutrition, CCS Haryana Agricultural University, Hisar, India.

Indigenously developed RWGT food mixture which contained rice flour, whey, sprouted green gram paste and tomato pulp (2:1:1:1 w/w) was autoclaved 1.5 kg/cm2, 15 min, 121 degrees C), cooled and fermented with 2% liquid culture (containing 10(6) cells/ml broth). Two types of fermentations were carried out i.e. single culture fermentation [L. casei, L. plantarum (37 degrees C, 24 hr.)] and sequential culture fermentation [S. boulardii (25 degrees C, 24 hr.) + L. casei (37 degrees C, 24 hr.)]; S. boulardii [(25 degrees C, 24 hr.) + L. plantarum (37 degrees C, 24 hr.)]. All the fermentations drastically reduced the contents of phytic acid, polyphenols and trypsin inhibitor activity while significantly improving the in vitro digestibilities of starch and protein. Sequential culture fermentations brought about higher changes as compared to single culture fermentations.

PMID: 12418801 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

I'm chiming in to ask a question, if that's ok? I am going to order the book once I find a reasonable price with shipping. How long do you soak the grains for? Can you give me some ideas, like if I want to make rice for dinner what would I do to it from start to finish (oatmeal, quinoa and such).


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *myjo*
Have any of you tried drinking colostrum? My soon-to-be goat just lost her poor babies to the freezing cold (sob) and she has colostrum right now that nobody is drinking. I wonder if it would taste alright?

I've had cow's. It's good. I would definitely milk the situation.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *myjo*
Have any of you tried drinking colostrum? My soon-to-be goat just lost her poor babies to the freezing cold (sob) and she has colostrum right now that nobody is drinking. I wonder if it would taste alright?

Also, What is the ideal temperature for simmering broth? So far, all my broth has been cloudy and/or not very flavorful.

I've read something about drinking colostrum recently -- something tells me it was in an article at the WAPF site. Also that you can get it powdered. I'll post a link if I find it.

And, uhm, broth *isn't* supposed to be cloudy?







: Mine usually are. I'm interested to hear the advice you get.


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## Pilgrim (Dec 12, 2004)

Hey all, I just ordered the book that Mountain Mom recommended through Amazon:

1 "Dr. Jensen's Guide to Better Bowel Care: A Complete Program for Tissue
Cleansing Through Bowel Management"
Bernard Jensen; Paperback; $10.85

I also ordered these books:

1 "Dr. Jensen's Guide to Diet and Detoxification : Healthy Secrets from
Around the World"
Bernard Jensen; Paperback; $9.71

1 "Dr. Jensen's Juicing Therapy : Nature's Way to Better Health and a
Longer Life"
Bernard Jensen; Paperback; $10.17

1 "Prescription for Nutritional Healing: A Practical A-Z Reference to
Drug-Free Remedies Using Vitamins, Minerals, Herbs, and Food Supplements
(Prescription for Nutritional Healing, 3rd ed)"
Phyllis Balch; Paperback; $16.29

Here's why I'm mentioning this. After my order was complete, it said that I could enter in some email addresses and send a 10% discount coupon to whomever orders one or more of the books that I just ordered. I will also get some sort of credit towards future purchases. (Don't know the deal there yet.)

Anyway, if you want me to put you in, PM me your email address and I'll give it to Amazon and they will email you the deal.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

1 "Dr. Jensen's Juicing Therapy : Nature's Way to Better Health and a
Longer Life"
Bernard Jensen; Paperback; $10.17

That is an awesome book!


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## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen*
And, uhm, broth *isn't* supposed to be cloudy?







: Mine usually are. I'm interested to hear the advice you get.

I've had better luck making clear stock when I do it in a crock pot (slow cooker). I think the heat level and time of boiling have something to do with it. I don't really care if my stock is clear or cloudy, as long as it tastes good. If the bones and meat/water ratio is too high, the flavor would be weak. Are you adding onions, carrots and celery? That makes a big difference. And when you drink it plain, you gotta add salt or it's just flat.

FWIW, I remember a part in a Japanese movie called Tampopo (about the pursuit of the perfect bowl of noodle soup) where the chef flips out because his assistant allows the stock to boil and that will make it cloudy.


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

Toraji, many thanks for that research.
Need to go and make packed lunches!


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Delurking for a moment just to say I thought of you all while I was watching the Food Network the other day. Alton Brown did a whole Good Eats episode on making stock. Thought I'd share if you didn't see it:
http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/Seaso...StockTrans.htm


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Mountain Mom ~ Thanks for the sourdough starter advice. I think mine is ready to go. It's been 7 days and it's back to being nice and bubbly.

Now I just need a recipe. I'm hesitent to use what's in NT because so far I haven't been all that impressed with her recipes. My aunt gave me a great recipe a couple of weeks ago but I have NO idea what I did with it.









Anyone have a sourdough recipe that you like all typed up or a link to one?


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

CJR - Here's some ideas about soaking the grains you mentioned.

Oatmeal porridge, or any grain porridge - kamut, spelt, rye, amaranth, or teff, each rolled or ground.

Serves 4 ( not generously IMO)

1 cup oats, rolled or cracked
1 cup warm water
2 tablespoons whey, yogurt, kefir, or buttermilk
1/2 teaspoon sea salt
1 cup filtered water

Soak the grains in the first cup of cold water with the warm water, overnight or for up to 24 hours. When ready to cook, bring the other cup of water to the boil with the salt, add the soaked porridge, and bring to the boil and simmer briefly.

Rice - rice is low in phytic acid and therefore doesn't require soaking, but they recommend cooking it for a long time in a "mineral rich broth".

Quinoa - soak 2 cups quinoa in 6 cups warm water with 2 tablespoons whey, etc, as above, for at least twelve hours. Rinse and drain well, then boil at a low temperature for an hour or more.

These aren't real recipes - just ideas to help you use your own recipes. If you would like real recipes, just say.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pilgrim*
I've been meaning to ask about food storage. I'm still using Tupperware!







:

I have at least begun to transfer foods to a glass bowl before microwaving them. I also bought some lids to fit my Corelle cereal bowls, but they aren't "see-through", so I have all these bowls in my fridge and I don't know what's in them without peeking.

Anyway, I'd like to know where y'all get your glass jars, what do they look like? Are we talking regular canning jars?











I store food in Pyrex storage bowls which are widely available and have plastic lids. I also use Pyrex glass baking dishes--like for casseroles--for storage and they have glass lids. Either of these can be heated up in a regular oven if you can think ahead a half hour before you eat. (We really try to avoid the microwave.) When the lid is plastic, I take it off and just lay an upside-down cookie sheet or pizza pan over the dish.

Usually regular canning jars, wide mouth type, and they are available at all the grocery stores around here. I also used to get big 80oz. jars of vlasic pickles from Wal-mart and I saved the jars--so I use those too and they are about triple the size of a regular canning jar.


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## The Hidden Life (Aug 29, 2004)

Hi NT Moms,
I am cleaning out my pantry today. Whoopee! Trying to clear out the junk and wondered if I should keep my Baking Powder. It's unopened, I hardly ever bake but keep it on hand for the two or three times a year I use it. A lot of you ladies seem to have a great deal of experience in NT baking and I was wondering if NT recipes ever call for baking powder. Thanks,
LeeAnn


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Depends on what kind of baking powder. If it is aluminum-free (like Rumford brand) then you can keep it.

Though technically off the top of my head I can't remember if any recipes in NT call for it or not!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama*
Mountain Mom ~ Thanks for the sourdough starter advice. I think mine is ready to go. It's been 7 days and it's back to being nice and bubbly.

Now I just need a recipe. I'm hesitent to use what's in NT because so far I haven't been all that impressed with her recipes. My aunt gave me a great recipe a couple of weeks ago but I have NO idea what I did with it.









Anyone have a sourdough recipe that you like all typed up or a link to one?









Here is my recipe for sourdough. Instead of adding in the yeast, you can add in your starter and let it sit to make the 'sponge'.

*Basic Sour Dough Bread*

In a large NON METAL bowl (or crock), mix:

2 cups whole wheat flour or unbleached, all purpose flour (or a mix of each)
2 cups warm water
1 teaspoon of Instant SAF yeast or one little packet (the kind that comes in three little sections) (Or 1 cup of your starter)
1 teaspoon of 'Rapadura Brand' Whole Organic Sugar (or honey or regular white sugar)

Stir together with plastic or wood spoon. It will look 'soupy' soft, almost like a lumpy, thick cake batter. This is your 'starter'.

Cover bowl/crock with a clean dish towel or plastic wrap (on loose) so 'gasses' can escape and let 'sour' for 4-24 hours. Also, be careful where you sit this, if you use too small a bowl, you might end up with some on your counter top! The longer the 'soak' the more flavorful the bread (sourer).

*4 hours, up to 24 hours later, ADD:*

1 stick of cooled, melted butter, or 1/2 cup olive or grapeseed oil or Virgin Coconut oil (heat to make liquid).
2 teaspoons sea salt - I really recommend this (can use kosher or plain salt if necessary)

Stir with that big wooden (my favorite) or plastic spoon (no metal, it kills yeast) until the very fluffy 'sponge' mixture shrinks and looks coated.

You will need anywhere from 6-10 cups of additional all purpose, unbleached flour to start forming your dough or whatever flour you like.

I slowly add in a cup of flour at a time, stirring after each addition until it starts getting HARD to stir/mix. (Conversely, use your Kitchenaid type mixer).

You will probably find that at or near 3-4 cups of additional flour, you will NOT feel like stirring this anymore!

At this point, I sprinkle about a cup of the all purpose flour on a CLEAN counter or wood cutting board. I pour the dough onto the center and slowly knead it with the flour, adding more if necessary, to form a fairly smooth ball. I do NOT spend a lot of time here, maybe 10 minutes.

Then I cut the dough into 'baseball to softball' size chunks, roll them into balls, coat in oil and put in medium size plastic baggies (to store in refrigerator for up to a week) or start forming my loaves.

If storing the dough for a few days in the refrigerator, leave some room in the baggies for 'expansion', and LOOSELY tie with a twist tie, or leave 1/2 inch open if using 'zip lock' type bags. I put all that I won't use immediately into the refrigerator. You are DONE if you don't want to bake immediately.

One of these 'balls' should fit perfectly in a normal 'loaf' bread pan. For faster baking time, I flatten the ball into a rough rectangle. I then roll it up 'french bread loaf' style and place on a cookie sheet. I let all loaves rest and 'puff' for about 30-40 minutes. Place a clean, slightly damp kitchen towel over them to keep drafts away and to assist in the 'rising'.

If you have removed dough that has been in the refrigerator for a day or so, let it warm up to room temp, then shape your loaf, then let rise as above.

Preheat oven to 400 degrees F.

Bake each loaf for about 40 minutes (if using a traditional 'loaf bread pan'). I usually bake 30 minutes when I just have dough sitting on a 'baking sheet' and it is a 'french' or 'peasant' style.

Calzones made with this dough are really tasty. Flatten a dough ball into a 10 inch circle, top with cooked meat or veges and cheese and a pizza sauce of your choice. Fold in half and 'press/pinch' edges to seal. I cut a slit in top (about 2 inches long) to allow steam to escape, and bake at 400 deg F for about 25 min.

I will melt butter and SMALL amount of garlic salt and brush this on top of freshly baked loaves...it really adds a nice flavor.

ENJOY!!


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Thanks Heather. Sounds great!


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## The Hidden Life (Aug 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
Depends on what kind of baking powder. If it is aluminum-free (like Rumford brand) then you can keep it.

Though technically off the top of my head I can't remember if any recipes in NT call for it or not!

Thanks for the reply.
Nope, the stuff I have is Clabber Girl, which has aluminum in it, so out it goes to some one more in need of it than I.


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## moss (Feb 7, 2004)

re sourdough~i like this site: http://www.sourdoughhome.com/tips.html it helped me *understand* my sourdough.









Also, i'm wondering if anyone really LOVEs the recipes in NT. I always seem to be reading about "too salty" this or "didnt quite work out" that. i tried doing up some lacto-fermented zukes and they were just way too salty to eat. i've only ever borrowed the book from the library, so i havent tried too many of the recipes out. i just kind of avoid grains that i dont already know how to deal with (it's only my son eating the grains anyways), and i havent really tried any lacto-fermentation projects since the failed zukes. I'm still waiting for my library to get wild fermentation, it's been on order for months!


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## Pilgrim (Dec 12, 2004)

Thanks Deporgarten! I was wondering about those Pyrex bowls! I think I'll check them out next time I'm at the outlet mall. I'd like to reduce our microwave usage too, but DH packed up our toaster oven; our house is for sale.

I'm glad I bought canning jars when I lived in OR. My friends up there taught me how to can! But down here, I can't find them readily available. Most people give me that







expression when I ask if they carry them! :LOL I'm using them for sprouting right now, because I don't have any lids.









I've got another kitchen equipment question. I bought a LeCreuset stock pot because it is enamel. However, I'm not real impressed with it. My stock loses about 2 inches per 24 hours of simmering (about 6 cups). Plus, there appears to be a glue or something around the edges of the lid that has eeked out. Does anybody have a good stock pot recommendation? I think I can still return this one, as it's not a month old yet.

And what do y'all use to make sauerkraut in? I can't even imagine a glass jar that large with a rubber seal. Do you just put it in smaller batches in the canning jars? Or can you use a huge pickle jar like Deporgarten was talking about (but is that airtight enough?)

Thanks y'all!

Edited to add: Moss - I'm still pretty new at all of this. One thing that I LOVE is when I make a proper bone broth (simmering for 36 hours minimum instead of 4 hours like I used to do) and then make soup from it. WOW, what a difference! It's really yummy!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

moss -- I don't use the recipes all that much. I use the book to get ideas about the _process_ -- like crispy nuts. I remember finding the leg of lamb recipe when I had a leg of lamb to cook. The actual leg of lamb recipe was OK. The leg of lamb soup was basically -- make soup stock, throw in leftover meat, and add vegetables. I don't need a cookbook to tell me that, so I wasn't very impressed -- no good spicing or anything. I consulted my mom for that.


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## moss (Feb 7, 2004)

That's sort of how i use cookbooks too...i get some basic inspiration from them and then use what's in the kitchen. i've been getting into a cooking rut lately though, so i might get NT out from the library again for some more ideas. (and i'll keep reading on this thread too! there's lots of inspiration here







)


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

Moss - I haven't tried that many recipes from NT but I do like the real "recipes" so far. It's the ones like bread or "basics" that I'm not so keen on so far. Like I don't like the porridge, but I loved the roast chicken and onion sauce. I loved the banana bread too.

For me, it's a great place to start, but maybe if you're already started then it's not the best cookbook in the world? I'm not great at improvising and messing with recipes, at least not this type that all seem so strange to me, so this thread is exactly what I'm looking for to help me make the most of the book.

I tried the spanish omelette tonight and it was great (I added mushrooms which helped







) but it's basically a "spanish omelette" the way they do it in Spain. And I already knew it more or less.

I do love this thread as it keeps me going on it.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moss*
really?

there's so much up to date info about plastics online, i personally dont trust plastics at all for food. when i use plastics, i know i'm taking a risk

i freeze stock in glass jars, i just make sure that they're not very full, and give the liquid plenty of room to expand. lately though, i've been using up stock as fast as i can make it! love those winter soups and stews.









nak- okay you got me thinking :LOL, so i found some plastic lids for my canning jars (that really was my main concern - i couldn't figure out how i'd cover them). we even have an upright deepfreeze, so i can just put the can in the door!








thanks moss!
mandy


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moss*
Also, i'm wondering if anyone really LOVEs the recipes in NT. I always seem to be reading about "too salty" this or "didnt quite work out" that. i tried doing up some lacto-fermented zukes and they were just way too salty to eat. i've only ever borrowed the book from the library, so i havent tried too many of the recipes out. i just kind of avoid grains that i dont already know how to deal with (it's only my son eating the grains anyways), and i havent really tried any lacto-fermentation projects since the failed zukes. I'm still waiting for my library to get wild fermentation, it's been on order for months!

Honestly, yes, most of the recipes I've tried have turned out AWESOME! I really like the sauerkraut, the mayonnaise, the whole wheat crackers, the yogurt dough, the ember day tart, the salted nuts, all the veggie recipes i've tried so far have been incredible - the cabbage recipes, carrots vichy, fried julienned parsnips, etc. Sure, I've used a lot of it as more of a process helper, but the only recipes that I haven't had success with have been some of the baking recipes. Although many of those (the muffins are awesome with kefir, and I devised a kicka$$ recipe for carob muffins based on a cross between the carob brownies and basic muffins - will post in the next couple of days) are really good, the baking times just need to be altered. One of the major difficulties I have is trying to mix everything really well, so I've started using my food processor to mix, and dough-based things have been turning out much better (I don't have a kitchenaid, only a handheld mixer, and it kind of sucks)
So I have to say, I really do love the book. A lot. I haven't been able to lend it to anyone yet, because I use it almost constantly. I think the only thing I haven't had success with is the bread. Oh, and I made the all-day spicy beef stew the other day in the slow cooker and it turned out quite watery (so I just added a bunch of frozen veggies and called it soup). And the raw-milk warmer







(I'm not a fan of carob other than the muffins)
I'm making the baked beans and basic rice tomorrow night, with a caesar salad, using all NT recipes (already got them soaking), so I'll be sure to let you all know how they turn out.
Oh, and the liver and onions (what we're having tonight with perogies and spaghetti squash and kefir sour cream







) are incredibly good! And I have _always_ hated liver!


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

I really like the nt cookbook though I whenever I think something just doesn't sound right I make adjustments (mostly for salt) or I consult other books (mostly on baking temps & times). I found with the breads once I changed the temps & times everything has come out great. Another cookbook we use a lot of is Julia Child's french cookbook from her 1st TV series. We obviously skip the baked goods & the deserts but the meat & fish & egg recipes are amazing. Betwen nt &Julia we are eatin' pretty yummy things around here!

I'm still caffeine free and feeling better for it every day. Last week I started feeling kind of yucky, I felt like my fingernails were going to fall out (hence my fingernail question). I realized I hadn't had any red meat for a few weeks and have been eating some with almost everymeal! I'm feeling much better for it.

I have a hard time getting a steady source of grass fed beef here so I just ordered a ton of it so that I can have it on a more regular basis. I also ordered our first liver, my husband has said he doesn't want it but I'm pretty determined to make it tasty for him.


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

hrheka, dd says she wants to try liver and tongue. I have no idea where she came up with this, or even knows these are food options. ANYWAY, let me know if you come up with a decent liver recipe. My mom used to cook it occasionally, and it was...less than desirable (the cats loved it, though).

ETA: hey, KatzMama, I don't think she's going to go for liver and onions, unless the onions are really sweet and she doesn't figure out what they are.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

*liver*The quality of the liver makes all the difference, so if you can find a good source, it's not going to taste at all like mom used to make. I rinse mine and let it sit in lemon juice (for however long I think to do it which is usually an hour). I bread it lightly with a mixture of flour, salt, and pepper (or at least I used to do this). I cook the onions on high until they are carmelized, set them aside. Add liver to pan, let it cook for a few, add water, put on lid and let it steam/simmer for another 5 or so. Turn it over, put lid on, maybe more water. Cook until it's done. There's the rub. I just cut it open sometimes and pull it off when it is ever-so-pink. I set the liver aside and make a gravy. I put it all together and it's pretty darned good.

By the way, I have found that it makes a huge difference in my energy. I haven't had any in a couple of weeks.







: I will head to the freezer now. Thanks for the reminder.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Anyone try the raw liver suggestions? I thought of this idea, even though I haven't gone down the liver road yet: How about marinating the liver in something acidic then slicing into slivers and flash searing then using as a topping for a kale salad? I know it sounds odd, but isn't raw or very rare liver better for us?


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

I have a question that's been on my mind for a while...

I teach yoga and my teacher always said that we needed to consult three sources before we could consider something to be "truth." Basically she didn't want us to read something in one book and then teach it as if it was THE yogic philosophy.

I've found that rule of three to be pretty helpful so I'm wondering who else (besides Sally, WAP society and all the related spin-off groups) agrees with the principles of NT.

NT makes so much sense to me. I keep hoping to pick up a cookbook off the shelf and have it tell me to soak my grains/nuts for maximum health benefits but I've never seen it anywhere else.









Darn...screeching baby. Not sure if this made sense but I'll just throw it out there.

ETA:

DD is sleeping...let me try to clarify a little.

I have read plenty of sources that talk about the health benefits of products from pasture-fed animals. I've also found plenty on using full fat dairy in moderation as opposed to skim, lowfat etc.

What I haven't found elsewhere is discussion of phytic acid...soaking grains/nuts/legumes etc.


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

dharmama, I've seen the bit about soaking grains, nuts and seeds to start the sprouting process in other books. Some are the books that Sally Fallon drew upon to write NT (some of the books she quotes in the margins -- I've read some of those books). I've also seen this info in the raw foodist literature.

Of course, where did the raw foodies get this info? Maybe they read the same books as Sally Fallon? What degree of separation do we need to consider it truly 3 separate sources?

You could give your yoga teacher a riff about the interconnectedness of all life, and how it would be inherently impossible to find 3 sources that are truly separate.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Queen Gwen*
dharmama, I've seen the bit about soaking grains, nuts and seeds to start the sprouting process in other books. Some are the books that Sally Fallon drew upon to write NT (some of the books she quotes in the margins -- I've read some of those books). I've also seen this info in the raw foodist literature.

Of course, where did the raw foodies get this info? Maybe they read the same books as Sally Fallon? What degree of separation do we need to consider it truly 3 separate sources?

You could give your yoga teacher a riff about the interconnectedness of all life, and how it would be inherently impossible to find 3 sources that are truly separate.









:LOL Good points!









My aunt and I were talking about some of Sally's sources (listen to me talking like we're on a first name basis :LOL) and how they all cross-reference each other. I'm just trying to figure out why more nutritional "experts" aren't talking more about traditional diets.

Anyway...just









My sourdough starter is finally looking ready. Thanks for that link to sourdough home moss.


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

I'm re-reading what I wrote, and gotta add this: I think you had a really good point in asking why no one else is talking about this. Is this just one of those theories/fads that will die out because it's just based on someone's theories, which could have some flaw of logic? Or, will some of this be proven out in independent work?

I find myself thinking along these lines a lot. Dh follows the Swank diet for MS. Swank did tons of research that no one else has really followed up on. Some of his conclusions seem to fly in the face of some of the stuff I read in NT (the stuff about fats; dh is heavily into enzymes, so he's pro-NT there). So, which is right?


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## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama*
I'm just trying to figure out why more nutritional "experts" aren't talking more about traditional diets.

I think part of the issue here may be that because these things are "traditional", they were handed down as common wisdom for common people, not written down or researched. Nutritional science now is so heavily funded and influenced by the food processing industry (which really wants us to think white flour, sugar, and pasteurized processed cheese food product are good foods) that it's an uphill battle to do or say anything that contradicts it. A lot of this food tradition was passed down orally, Weston Price was unique in studying it in various cultures and writing about it comprehensively. Many sources quote Price (or espouse some of the practices even if they don't mention his name), but I think Sally and her cohorts were the first to take what he wrote as a whole picture and translate it to our modern lives. Aside from Price, I think there are very few written sources of food traditions as practiced by our (healthier) ancestors. Very few modern nutritional practices are based on tradition beyond the last few decades, even those traditions that allowed people to live largely free of the degenerative diseases plaguing modern people.


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## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Queen Gwen*
Is this just one of those theories/fads that will die out because it's just based on someone's theories, which could have some flaw of logic? Or, will some of this be proven out in independent work?

I'm not waiting for "independent" science (which seems an oxymoron these days) to validate eating the way that makes me feel good and healthy. As for fads, I don't see how the things talked about in NT could be considered as such, because all those practices have been around for so long in other cultures all over the world. Isolated soy protein - now there's a fad.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I have seen the NT concepts in many cookbooks and health texts. Some off hand are:
The Ten Talents cookbook
Dr Jensen's Soup and Salad book
Raw: The Uncook book
The Sprout Garden
Wild Fermentation
Healthy Gourmet Recipes (Paul Bragg)
South Indian Cuisine (I think thats the name)
Joy of Cooking

I have read up alot on soaking and fermentation and it, up to the point of finding NT, was always sourced in old german cookbooks from my gramma.

I will write more later...off to playgroup.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Queen Gwen*
So, which is right?

I think they both can be. I really prefer Dr. Price's book to Sally Fallon or even the WAP website for information, and seeing the diets he recorded in the different areas. They are so different from each other in many different ways. Take, for instance, the Gaelic diet. They had mostly codfish and oats -- little if any milk, and what vegetables they could grow there. They were one of the healthy people he found -- he wrote about how kind they were, how cheerful in spite of their obstacles. No butter or cultured milk products for them, yet they were healthy. No coconut or olive oils. Just fish, oatmeal, oat cakes, and some vegetables.

There are many factors, imo, that influence what foods are healthiest for any individual -- genetics, geographical location, age, needs (pg? nursing?), past diet.... No two people are going to be the same. I might get in trouble for mentioning this on the NT thread, but nt a la Fallon may not even be the best for everyone. If your dh's diet is working for him, great. NT/traditional foods works (mostly) for me. My dh can't stand fat in meat, butter on everything like I like it. We get meat now from an organic farmer, and it was well-marbled, a good amount (imo) of fat on it. We had been purchasing lean roasts at the store for so long, it was a welcome change for me, but he found it gross. So we're like Jack Sprat and his wife, and it works out. He does, however, eat a lot of dairy. I like butter, cheese, and yogurt, and cream on things, but don't drink a lot of milk on its own. He's a bread-and-milk guy, like his dad, who will literally sit down and eat a bowl of bread bits with milk poured over it.

Oh, in addition, I think that our sedentary lifestyle really does impact what foods we need. I find nt works for me because I've been pg, nursing, and tandeming for the last 5 years without a break, and also babywearing, and running around after kids. Not as much work as people in times past -- I do have a car for transportation, and my gardening is limited to a little area of flowers that I mostly let run wild after I've planted anyway -- but still, my life is pretty cushy. In the winter, I have baseboard heaters and lots of outerwear to warm me, I don't need fat to help out. I think I would be healthier if I did do more work and strenuous exercise, and that would definately justify my diet.

Just my thoughts.

And I agree with the pps who pointed out that this "diet" has long traditions in various cultures to back it up. Not that I completely distrust modern science, but there have been so many things where they say "This is what you should do -- science proves it!" then a few years later they're all "Oh, that research has been disproved, now this is what you should do -- science proves it!" I tend to trust what centries of tradition has tested as opposed to what a few years (decades, at most) of science has tested.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm thinking of starting a yahoo group so we can use the files feature to store recipes/ideas we're sharing here. I, personally, would find that easier (I think) than searching through old threads here. Would anybody be interested? If there is interest, I'll get it started & post a link.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Quote:

I'm thinking of starting a yahoo group so we can use the files feature to store recipes/ideas we're sharing here. I, personally, would find that easier (I think) than searching through old threads here. Would anybody be interested? If there is interest, I'll get it started & post a link.








Great idea!


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

Yes, a yahoo group for files would be great.


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## Pilgrim (Dec 12, 2004)

I'd be there!


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

Brisen and everyone who commented on Dharmama's comment, that was all very interesting.

Specifically about phytic acid, Dharamama, here are some of my thoughts:

Phytic acid levels in food wouldn't be a problem for the majority of people because most people don't eat many whole grains at all. This would be enough to explain why there isn't much information in the mainstream about it.

Phytic acid may not really be a problem for anybody because what it does is bind the minerals in the whole grain that includes it. If you are eating whole wheat bread with beef and green vegetables, the fact that you're losing out on the iron and zinc in the bread may not affect your health at all - you still may be getting more than you need in the rest of your meal. I think that this may be the most important question and it is where NT seems to veer away from most other sources of info.

There certainly is research being done on phytic acid, and morst of what NT says about it seems to be backed up elsewhere - that phytates or phytic acid binds minerals in food, that it can be neutralised through soaking and sprouting, although there is not agreement on how effective these methods are.

Work on phytate reduction seems to be concentrated in those areas where people do need to get every last bit of nutrition out of their food - feeding people in famine areas, and weaning foods for babies in developing countries. Also, I saw a lot of stuff on the net about low-phytate animal feed - because it's cheaper to give animals more nutritious food, and because phospates bound up in food, that aren't used by the animal, end up as polluting poop.

I guess that I've concluded that since one of the main reasons I eat and feed my family whole grains is because of the mineral content - (otherwise, I would eat white bread more often) - that I might as well take a few steps to get more out of my food.

But I also feel frustrated at the lack of information in this area.


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## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

I've been thinking a lot about oats (I know, get a life). NT says that lactobaccili and enzymes both have a role in phytate reduction, so even if the oat groats themselves have no native enzymes left (because of being previously steamed or roasted), if one is adding something like kefir to the soaking water then phytate reduction should still occur, just as when soaking oats for porridge. I don't know if any of the enzymes in kefir would be the same as those naturally in grains (and which are activated in a warm, wet environment), but you at least have the lactobaccili and acid. I'm unclear on the role of acid in the soaking medium, but NT calls for all grain soaking to be done with warm, acidulated water. If the study showing no significant phytate reduction from soaking whole grains used plain water, I don't see how it would apply, since we're not using plain water. Also, as for the matter of grains being whole when soaked rather than ground, the phytate content is in the bran (outer) layer, so the soaking medium should have no trouble penetrating that layer and doing its work. Maybe in the future I'll add a tiny bit of wheat for grain enzymes.

I'm going to continue to soak whole oat groats in water with kefir added, then dry and grind or flake them. I used them in a recipe just yesterday that turned out really nice, so I'll share it with you all. I'm calling them oatcakes, although I suspect they're not much like the recipe Catarina posted (which I intend to try). I wanted something very slightly sweet, dry but not hard, and easy. This fit the bill, I'm happy it turned out how I wanted 'cuz I was just winging it.

Maple Oatcakes

(These were made with whole oat groats that I soaked in water with kefir for about 18 hours, then dried and ground into flour with a grain mill.)

8 oz. ground oats*, plus about another 1/4 cup for kneading
1/2 tsp finely-ground sea salt
4 oz. cold unsalted butter, cubed (8 Tbsp)
1/8 cup maple syrup (2 Tbsp)

*this weight in oats amounted to about 2 cups ground, not packed, just the way it fell out of the grain mill and shaken slightly to level the top so I could see how many cups it was, I made it an even 8 oz. on the scale by adjusting by just a pinch, you could weight it before grinding as well, I don't know how much it was in volume before grinding

Place 8 oz. ground oats and salt in workbowl of food processor, pulse briefly to mix. Add cubed butter, pulse several times until evenly distributed but still coarse in texture. Add maple syrup, pulse briefly to mix, just until dough comes together. It will be slightly sticky at this point. Sprinkle remaining 1/4 cup oats on a board, turn dough out onto it and knead just until it gets less sticky and holds together better. Form into 1" balls, flatten each ball to about 1/4" thick on baking sheet lined with parchment paper. Brush tops with additional maple syrup if desired. Bake at 300 degrees F for 30 min.

I'm sure this could be made without using a food processor, it would just take longer, and you'd want to cut the butter in with a pastry blender so it doesn't melt with the heat from your hands, I think keeping the butter cold was part of what made these so tender, similar to why you want to keep the fat cold when making a pastry crust. You could perhaps adjust the baking temp and time as well, I wanted them cooked and dried out but not very browned so I kept it low and slow. These turned out very tender, just slightly sweet, and the flavors of oats and maple go together very well, they were a huge hit with my husband and our 5 year old. They were easy (in spite of my long-winded description), I think I spent less than 15 min. on prep.


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## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catarina*
I guess that I've concluded that since one of the main reasons I eat and feed my family whole grains is because of the mineral content - (otherwise, I would eat white bread more often) - that I might as well take a few steps to get more out of my food.

But I also feel frustrated at the lack of information in this area.

I agree, and I also feel that all of us fall into the category of needing to get every last bit of nutrition out of our food, because the soil has become so depleted in most farming areas (even most organically-managed soils are not restored), and our pollution levels and toxic burden are so high in modern times, that we need all the help we can get.


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

AJP, Toraji said something similar about the lactobacteria helping to break down the phytates. I guess that I had forgotten that and was thinking that the whey etc was there to bring down the pH.

Anyway, that recipe sounds nice. Do you have a dehydrator, or do you use a slow oven to dry the oats? I don't have a grain grinder, and I was wondering what I could do with the wet, soaked grains in a blender, Ezekial bread style.


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## The Hidden Life (Aug 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen*
I'm thinking of starting a yahoo group so we can use the files feature to store recipes/ideas we're sharing here. I, personally, would find that easier (I think) than searching through old threads here. Would anybody be interested? If there is interest, I'll get it started & post a link.

Are you already on the Native Family Nutrition yahoo list? If so, maybe you could store the files there. It is a fairly low-volume list (about five-10 messages a day) and they don't have much stored in the Files section. And they are all Nourishing Traditions fans who would enjoy the archived messages.

LeeAnn


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

The Hidden Life, I didn't know about that list. Glad to find out about all the resources I can!

I already made the yahoo group though -- http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/MDCTFoodies/


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen*
So we're like Jack Sprat and his wife, and it works out.

Us too. I absolutely crave fats, but dh really prefers all of his fat cut off the meat. I've honestly formed the opinion that women simply _need_ more fat in their diets than men. And this probably cycles based on what time of the month it is. And what time of year. And whether a woman is pregnant or nursing.
I've very significantly increased my fat intake since reading NT (and of course it's really freaking cold here right now) - if I had to guess, I'd say about 50% (or maybe a bit more) of my diet is fat, mostly animal fat, and I feel better than I have in a long time, _especially_ at this time of year. I'm also nursing a 1 year old who barely eats any solids right now, so that may be why I crave fats as strongly as I do. And I'm still losing weight. I'm actually under my prepregnancy weight, and I was described as skinny even before I got pregnant. Funny, isn't it.
And yet, in the summer I could happily very rarely eat meat, if at all, and feel great. In fact, I think I will start putting a lot of effort into cycling my diet based on seasons in my location. Unfortunately, I don't think I can really look to First Nations native diets in this location, because I'm pretty sure they were nomadic and noone actually lived here over winter (someone correct me if I'm wrong? I'm in Saskatchewan).
But my husband, who is also losing weight since we started eating the NT way, probably still only has fat as around 20% of his diet. We're just two different people, with different needs. And he's starting to look realllllly good







- in fact, I swear he's actually looking younger!
Okay, so that's my blurb on eating what your instincts tell you to


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catarina*
Phytic acid levels in food wouldn't be a problem for the majority of people because most people don't eat many whole grains at all. This would be enough to explain why there isn't much information in the mainstream about it.

Phytic acid may not really be a problem for anybody because what it does is bind the minerals in the whole grain that includes it. If you are eating whole wheat bread with beef and green vegetables, the fact that you're losing out on the iron and zinc in the bread may not affect your health at all - you still may be getting more than you need in the rest of your meal. I think that this may be the most important question and it is where NT seems to veer away from most other sources of info.

There certainly is research being done on phytic acid, and morst of what NT says about it seems to be backed up elsewhere - that phytates or phytic acid binds minerals in food, that it can be neutralised through soaking and sprouting, although there is not agreement on how effective these methods are.

Work on phytate reduction seems to be concentrated in those areas where people do need to get every last bit of nutrition out of their food - feeding people in famine areas, and weaning foods for babies in developing countries. Also, I saw a lot of stuff on the net about low-phytate animal feed - because it's cheaper to give animals more nutritious food, and because phospates bound up in food, that aren't used by the animal, end up as polluting poop.

ITA, this is what I feel too. But even the vegan Dr. Klaper addresses the issue here: http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdo...sDrKlaper.html

Another person that talks about phytic acid/fermentation is Bill Mollison, one of the founders of permaculture:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...67954?v=glance

On a separate note, Brisen ITA with your thoughts on not all people doing well on a strict NT diet. We are all different, and require different inputs of energy according to our needs.


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## lao80 (Feb 24, 2004)

My ginger bug is fermenting and today I got a 5 gallon glass carboy, a water lock, bottles, etc etc. I can't wait for it to be ready.


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

Oooo, I just got Eat Fat, Lose Fat by Mary Enig and Sally Fallon in the mail. Having spent about 3 minutes looking it over, I'm very excited! Get this, I flipped it open to Health Recovery, where it gives a day-by-day start up plan...for example, Day Five: make chicken stock and homemade whey; Day Six: make coconut kefir, beet kvass, sauerkrauet; Day Seven: make beef stock, kombucha or kefir gingerale, coconut crackers. It then follows with menus of what to eat for the next 14 days. I swear, it's like NT for Dummies, which is PERFECT for me.

I consistently blow it on scheduling what to do when...like I forgot to soak and sprout the wheat berries on Wednesday so I could dry them Thursday, then grind for dough on Friday. How tough is it to remember such simple little steps?







:

Must go read now...just wanted to share with folks who would understand my excitement.


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## naturalmother (Jan 22, 2005)

Oh yay, yay, yay - a Nourishing Traditions forum! I have been searching for people _all over_, who practice the diet from Sally's book/weston a price organisation. I don't have time to read through the entire forum (it's 3:30am), but I will read through it soon..

I'm getting some pasture fed raw milk this Monday. I'm so damn excited.









I just wanted to also say that I didn't follow the NT diet perfectly when pregnant (hardly anything was available - except organic dairy and fruits) but I did maintain a diet really high in saturated fat (especially organic milk and cream). I truly think my DD's strength and alertness (and my less than 5 hour labour) was the result of that diet. She is so strong (rolling over from back to tummy, scooting and able to get from one side of the room to the other at 10 weeks old). She is also extremely bright.

Anyway, just wanted to say I'm happy to see a forum like this! I'll be back in a couple days time..


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Welcome, naturalmother!

I had a more NT diet with dc#3 than with the first two, and she's definately stronger, more alert, more content & smiley, etc. than my first two.


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## naturalmother (Jan 22, 2005)

Ok, so I'm a bad mama. I stayed up and read through the forum. Man, I'm gonna pay for this in a couple of hours.
















Anyway, I'm going to dive right in with some questions!

Quote:

Anyhow, cultured butter always tasted so good
I love cultured butter. I am planning on getting raw cream and making butter. Has anyone done this? Did you culture the butter? Where did you get the culture from?

*How can you tell grass fed beef from grain fed beef? We buy organic from our butcher (he only sells organic meats) and he told me that some of the meat is pasture fed and some is grain (depends on the region). I was wondering if there was a way of telling by looking at it or by taste?

*Where do you get your coconut oil from? I want raw coconut oil (for food, baby massage and as a moisturizer).

*Eggs? Sally says that egg yolks should be a deep orange color? If they are not, does it mean the chickens are not pasture fed? Sorry.. dumb question I know..

Quote:

Anyone try the raw liver suggestions?
My parents always used to feed us raw liver. REALLY good for you and doesn't taste too bad. Just put some sea salt and mixed ground spice on the side of the plate to dip in, and your set! We also eat raw meat, so maybe my opinion is bias.

----

Thanks for the welcome Brisen! So you noticed your DD was stronger too, eh? I think the NT diet does wonders. I definately feel more healthier since being on a high fat diet. I guess it's no co-incidence that my DD's body would benefit too.


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

Ooh, ooh (waves hand wildly), the new book I was babbling about is about coconut oil, so I can anwer the coconut oil question.

These are sources Enig and Fallon recommend:

In the stores: Garden of Life (sold in vitamin section)
Omega Nutrition (sold in vitamin section)
Spectrum unrefined coconut oil (sold in vitamin section)

Mail order: Tropical Traditions (highly recmmended) tropicaltraditions.com
Wilderness Family Naturals wildernessfamilynaturals.com
Radiant Life radiantlifecatalog.com
Coconut oil online coconutoil-online.com
Beyond a Century beyond-a-century.com

I didn't insert these as live links since I haven't tried any of them. I have been to the Tropical Traditions website -- it's the one Dr. Mercola links to. A friend IRL uses their coconut oil and says it's wonderful. I'm still using up some Spectrum I bought earlier.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm planning (sometime, lol) to go back through this and past threads to c&p recipes and things to the files section of the yahoo group. I'll be pming posters for permission before I do that, though. Just fyi. If I pm you for permission for something you've already copied to the files, just let me know.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

A pp mentioned looking into traditional diets from her heritage (or perhaps location? I'm not sure now). Has anyone else done this? I'm 1/4 Danish, the rest is mostly Irish with one Scottish great grandfather. My dh is half Swedish, the rest is a mix of Danish, French, and German. So my kids are half of each of those.







I haven't looked into it too much yet. Can anyone recommend any good resources?


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

Natural Mother, I use the Tropical traditions coconut oil and I love it. I've used both the spectrum & garden of life but the Tropical Traditions is so much better. I use it for everything, cooking, shakes, moisturizer and to speed up my ever so slow thyroid.

I've been cooking up an NT storm here and hubby is so happy. Not only does NT make me feel better but its making me really enjoy cooking again.

We just got a freezer full of grass fed beef, I was surprised how much I like it. It was dry aged and I think thats made it very mild tasting. I think I'm going to try the liver next week, I've been holding off until I could get something I trusted. Now if I could just find a good source of pastured whole chickens we'd be set.


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## The Hidden Life (Aug 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen*
A pp mentioned looking into traditional diets from her heritage (or perhaps location? I'm not sure now). Has anyone else done this? I'm 1/4 Danish, the rest is mostly Irish with one Scottish great grandfather. My dh is half Swedish, the rest is a mix of Danish, French, and German. So my kids are half of each of those.







I haven't looked into it too much yet. Can anyone recommend any good resources?

Danish, Irish, Scots, Swedish, French, German....sounds like you are all VIKING!!!









Let's see...lots of beef, sheep and oats for your Scots-Irish side.

Fish and cheese for your Danish-Swedish genes.

Sausages, milk and sauerkraut for your German and French ancestry.

Maybe you should just look into a Continental breakfast?









Sorry, I don't have any brilliant cookbook suggestions, but if you grew up enjoying any of the Scandinavian or Celtic specialties, surely you can adapt those recipes to NT recommendations.

LeeAnn

Who is Scots-Irish-Welsh-German herself...my children are some horrendous mix of Scots-Irish-Welsh-German-Dutch-French-English in assorted fractions I can't figure out.


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## naturalmother (Jan 22, 2005)

Thanks for the recommendation! Tropical Traditions it is!









I also wanted to ask 2 more things
- what brand cod liver do you take?
- do you know anyone that has "made up" the baby formula at the back of the NT book? I am having some trouble breastfeeding - both physically and mentally. Physically, I am feeling sick every day. Mentally, I can't stand breastfeeding and it's sending me into depression. I cry every day and have come so close to really losing it.














I am thinking of weaning onto formula (but I don't want to use conventional formula). DD is 4 months old.

If you had alot of trouble with breastfeeding, would you go for the NT formula or conventional formula? Please be honest.


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## treehugger (Jan 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *naturalmother*
I am having some trouble breastfeeding - both physically and mentally. Physically, I am feeling sick every day. Mentally, I can't stand breastfeeding and it's sending me into depression. I cry every day and have come so close to really losing it.














I am thinking of weaning onto formula (but I don't want to use conventional formula). DD is 4 months old.

If you had alot of trouble with breastfeeding, would you go for the NT formula or conventional formula? Please be honest.

I want to hug you ((((hugs))))

You poor thing, hang in there.

I know I am a newbie but my heart went out to you when I read your post
I hope you are feeling better soon.

I am also new to this thread but I am very interested in learning more it all seems so interesting.

sorry to barge in on you all. I will say hello now








:


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *naturalmother*
If you had alot of trouble with breastfeeding, would you go for the NT formula or conventional formula? Please be honest.

Sorry to hear you are having problems. Have you checked out he breastfeeding forum?

I don't know if my opinion is good for much because I haven't needed to really research it, but I would likely use commercial formula. I would worry about not preparing the homemade one properly/safely. But before I resorted to commercial formula, I would ask a friend to pump for me. If I had to stop breastfeeding right now (my dd is 5 months old), I have a friend who is nursing her 1 year old son, I would pay her to pump extra for me. I don't know if this would be an option for you.

What is it about breastfeeding that you can't stand?


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

natural mother, so sorry about your breastfeeding experience. My mother did not breastfeed my sister and me but she did make our formula herself. She used Adelle davis's recipe in Lets Have Healthy Children, but I think she used goats milk as a base for it. My sister & I were very healthy children, my sister was the chubbiest baby I ever have seen, like a little sumo wrestler, but is a very slender adult.

If I could not breastfeed I would definately prefer making my own formula, I do not trust the companies that make formula to make healthy food for myself so why would I trust it for my daughter. I would however look at as many different formula recipes as possible though.

I would also try and express at least once a day if possible. I breastfed my daughter until recently, she is 19 months. At about 14 months I started feeling like you do about breastfeeding. I continued as long as I could but it got to the point where I was letting her stay up to midnight just to avoid breastfeeding. Its easier for more me since she is older. Perhaps there is some sort of compromise you can manage between pumping & homamade formula. Good luck

As for cod liver oil I use Carlson's.


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

Natural Mother, I know that you didn't ask for advice with breastfeeding, but I hope that you are able to get some support and help with it before you decide to give up. Are you able to get into contact with La Leche League? Is there any way you can get a bit of support with other aspects of life (my polite term for housework) so you can get a bit of rest or time to yourself? I know I'm being presumptous, I'm just thinking of myself when I was at home with my first baby and how difficult it could be.

In answer to your question, I wouldn't be brave enough to give such a young child a home-made formula mixture.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

naturalmother,








I'm so sorry to hear about your breastfeeding troubles. It's so different for everyone. For me, those feelings happened when I was tired and touched out, and when I needed better nutrition to support myself.

I hope I am not poking too far, but do you think breastfeeding is touching upon some unresolved emotional issues from the past? Do you think seeing a therapist might help? You don't have to answer, just wanted to throw that out in case it might help.

Hugs to you and I hope it gets better! I also second the advice for consulting with LLL for local bf support.

If I could not bf, then I would do homemade formula (researching different recipes, not just NT). If I had to resort to commercial formula, then I'd add oils and fats like Mercola recommends for EFAs etc.

I also take Carlson's CLO, the stuff in a gel cap as I have sensory issues with liquid fish oil.


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *naturalmother*
Thanks for the recommendation! Tropical Traditions it is!









I also wanted to ask 2 more things
- what brand cod liver do you take?
- do you know anyone that has "made up" the baby formula at the back of the NT book? I am having some trouble breastfeeding - both physically and mentally. Physically, I am feeling sick every day. Mentally, I can't stand breastfeeding and it's sending me into depression. I cry every day and have come so close to really losing it.














I am thinking of weaning onto formula (but I don't want to use conventional formula). DD is 4 months old.

If you had alot of trouble with breastfeeding, would you go for the NT formula or conventional formula? Please be honest.

Welcome, naturalmother!

1st, I also take carlson's lemon flavored CLO. And I have tried Tropical Traditions and Garden of Life coconut oils and they are both excellent.

2nd, if I had to ever bottle feed again, I would most definately do a good homemade formula.

I just want to throw a few thoughts out there for ya, but please don't take anything as thinking we would not support you if you stopped breastfeeding. And obviously I don't know all of what is going on with you, these are just things that automatically come to mind.

I'm not sure if she is your first child or not, but you might want to consider that bottle feeding may not help depression or physical symptoms. I have had to bottle feed before and it is a lot of work!!

You may be looking at things as an all or nothing thing. Giving a bottle once a day may help you psychologically, and would definately be better than completely stopping.

Before making any quick decisions, I would really try to think what exactly it is about breastfeeding that is bothering you so much. See if maybe there is a way to fix that problem. Maybe say that you will try to stick it out for one more month, then re-evaluate.
See if taking the CLO, coconut oil, and raw milk and cream might help you be more nourished first, and in turn better able to nourish another.

Having a real live support person to come see you (a friend, LLL leader, etc) to talk to and get help or guidance from can be so much more helpful.

We are all here totally pulling for you, let us know of anything we can do to help! We want happy mamas and babes!!


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

naturalmother, I feel for you. It is really tough when you really wanted to do something for your kids and then you find that you just don't feel you can manage it. You already have good comments from the others, I just wanted to add that especially when you have a young baby like that, you feel like the way things are is going to go on forever, but in fact, it changes so quickly. I went back to work when my ds#2 was 4 months old. He wouldn't take a bottle and was so dependant on me. I couldn't leave him without him being unhappy, except at this daycare where he was "happy" but didn't get any milk all day! I was going so crazy with his dependency on me that I felt if I didn't go back to work I would be at home with this dependent baby forever... so I kept working (part-time). Anyway, 2 months later, he started eating a lot of solids, started sitting up and taking an interest in life, and was a completely different baby. Really I could have put off working for a few weeks and it would have been completely different. So what I'm trying to say is that although you feel things will always be awful. They will change quickly and if you can get help, perhaps things will be different in a couple of weeks. Anyway, sounds like you're doing absolutely your best







- I think that I would be brave enough (on dc3!) to try the homemade formula. They put all sorts of horrible stuff in the commercial ones!

After reading what everyone said about soaking the oats, I tried again adding something to the water for soaking before I made porridge. I found that if I used really delicious yoghurt, it wasn't as bad as before, and in fact I quite enjoyed it.

I still haven't go round to trying out the sourdough - it seems like a lot of trouble to get that starter going, and I don't have any bowls large enough except metal or plastic ones....


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## earthchick (Sep 30, 2004)

Popping in to offer my encouragement and experience to natural mother (welcome!). I am so sorry to hear about the bf'ing difficulties you've had. I had tremendous difficulty bf'ing one of my sons - a very long story that I will try to make short. It totally broke my heart, and breaks my heart still, that I was not able to ever fully bf one of my boys. He and I were both very sick after delivery (he with lung issues that required an 8-day NICU stay and 10 weeks on oxygen and me with supply issues related to preeclampsia that did not resolve after delivery and the bp meds I was on for it).

I worked for 3 months to get both babies fully on the breast and I nearly had a breakdown in the process (dh would come home every day to find me in tears after having spent the entire day nursing, using a supplemental system, weighing the babes before and after feedings, pumping, and then repeating the whole cycle). I did everything there is to do to increase my supply and to help his suck. At one point, I took the boys to an osteopath for a few weeks for cranial-sacral therapy to help with their sucking. My osteopath is the only person I know IRL who knows anything about NT. She recommended that I switch from supplmenting with commercial formula to homemade, using the NT recipe. Thing is, I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I was afraid, I guess. Maybe I'm too mainstream but I was just scared to be feeding such a young baby my own homemade concoction. And I was already running myself ragged looking after both babes, I just couldn't see whipping up batches of formula (after first running down a source for raw milk). My osteopath put me in touch with someone who had extra EBM and I was able to use a month's supply of that. But ever since my baby was 4 months he has gotten commercial formula







: (I would still try to nurse him every few days and sometimes it would work out, but lately it's not working at all - I'm afraid he's totally forgotten how to latch)







. Maybe if I had gotten into this thread sooner I would've screwed up the courage to make my own formula. I wouldn't have resorted to formula at all if I hadn't absolutely had to. Even now I am on Domperidone to get my supply up enough just to bf my other baby.

Sometimes real life turns out differently than what we would've hoped for and we can't do what we thought we could. I hope you can find what you need to keep at it, but ultimately you need to do what's best for you and your babe - she needs a mama who is physically and emotionally okay. Hang in there and let us know how it goes.


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

These breastfeeding/early motherhood stories are really something. It's such an intense time of life, we're such beginners with our first babies, and there is so little support from society. Nutrition wise - nine months in the womb, four months or so of breastfeeding, a few months of commercial formula, and then good food for the rest of their lives - I think these babies are getting a lot of good nutrition.


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## Pilgrim (Dec 12, 2004)

Howdy! Our beef people just delivered an order, and I have a freezer full! This time I ordered some liver. Here's what I'd like to do....

I want to make some meat sticks for my daughter to enjoy. I used to give her Aidell's brand of little sausages (looked like Lil' Smokies.) These made GREAT snacks for the road. She constantly asks for more, so I really want to make her a healthy version.

So, she's allergic to eggs and dairy, and all grains except rice are eliminated from our diets at the moment.

Can anyone help me formulate a good recipe? I have NEVER cooked liver before. I was thinking of doing 2 1lbs. ground beef and 1 lb. liver, and mixing it all in the Vita Mixer (super strong blender.) Then adding some garlic and onions. I'd need a binder (OK, do I really?) - considering psyllium husk goo (never done this but know it can be used as a substitute.) I'm certain I'd need more spices (will use the Turkey Sausage recipe as a spice guide?), and I don't know if the beef:liver ratio is a good one.

Thanks for any help! (oh, I should do this today, as the meat has been thawing for a few days now.)


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Hey Pilgram, I have no advice, I have never worked with liver before but I am interested to know too! Your recipe sounds good, I have used psyllium as a binder before, and it works well!

I am about to make the sunflower brownies, anyone tried this?

Have a good one everyone!

NaturalMother...How are you doing?


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

I've done liver sausage before, and used wheat flour as the binder. It was really soft, not like a commercial sausage. I just did patties.

I am not sure how to get the stick effect, but I'm thinking that you will need to use more binder than I did, possibly a higher ground beef ratio. Mine was mostly liver/kidney with only a little muscle meat, like 25%. I think traditionally they used casings to hold it all together.


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## naturalmother (Jan 22, 2005)

Thanks so much for all the support.







Im so happy to have found a group of understanding moms! Im all teary eyed.









I am also so sorry *mountain mom* for interrupting the NT thread with my breastfeeding woes&#8230;

Quote:



I hope I am not poking too far, but do you think breastfeeding is touching upon some unresolved emotional issues from the past?


It might be. I'm just not sure exactly what issues are being bought up. I have never experienced that "bond" when feeding DD. I tried to, I really did. I tried to think of it as nourishing and peaceful and such, and well I just couldn't see it that way. Each time I would feed her, all I could think of was "please hurry up and get off me".







: I feel so ashamed even saying that.

Let me start by saying that I'm not the healthiest person out there. Ever since I had major surgery and became severely underweight, it has been hard for me to even function normally on a day-to-day basis. About a year and a half ago, after reading NT, I decided to try the high fat diet and it worked wonders. My health improved dramatically! I basically waved bye bye to being and feeling sick. Because I was so ill for over 3 years and it affected every part of my lifestyle, I sufferred from depression. In Dec '03 I got pregnant, continued the NT diet, gained a wonderful amount of weight, felt fantastic and at 40w gave birth to a healthy baby girl.

Breastfeeding was fine for those first couple of weeks, even though we had a latching issue and grazed nipples. We overcame them in one week though (It's all my fault, I have flat nipples).
Then at around 5 weeks, the trouble started - constant fussiness (from an otherwise extremely calm baby), excessive spitting up, very little sleep etc. I considered it might have been something in my diet and I started to eliminate upon the advice of others. After seeing her ped, we came to the conclusion that it was most likely dairy and eggs - the 2 foods that keep me going. He said to either give them up or see her in this pain. I gave up egg whites and continued with the yolk, as the whites are the part that are allergenic. I gave up diary altogether. That was real hard. I only eat beef, eggs, dairy produce, fruits and vegetables (fruits and veggies do nothing for me either - I might as well have subbed them for water). I wasn't eating as much as before, mainly because I had nothing to eat! I don't eat much bread - it wrecks havoc with my blood sugar. 
Within a week, the headaches started, and so did the lack of energy and feeling like Im deteriorating. I found myself living off two steaks, salad and a couple of oranges and apples for an entire day. I was constantly hungry, tired, suffering from headaches, dizzy, lightheaded, lost weight fast, moody etc.

She would stay up all night to eat, I was already exhausted from lack of food, It's not like I needed no sleep too! She also became very high needs (still is, to this day). For the first 10 weeks, I stayed at home all day to feed her (in the same room 24 hours a day - I forgot what outside looked like) - she would nurse around the clock - it never seemed like she was getting enough. This of course sped up my weight loss and kept the cycle of feeling crappy, going. Then I started to fall into depression from feeling sick all the time. I knew my milk was really poor, I wasn't getting enough nutrients for the both of us - I wasn't even consuming more than 500 calories a day.

Big guilt trips started to happen and I was pressured from everyone to quit breastfeeding. I wanted to quit and move onto formula, but couldn't bring myself to it. One more day, one more day I kept saying to myself - just for her sake. So I continued.

As the days and weeks passed, my health got worse over time. I would shake at times out of nowhere, suddenly lose my balance and almost fainted on several occassions. I kept trying to re-introduce dairy into my diet but each time I would, her symptoms would start up again.

Dh would come home each day to find me spaced out sitting on the couch. I didn't want to talk, I didn't even want to eat anymore. When he would go to work, in my mind I would say "please don't go. I don't know if I can handle another day with her". I would cry randomly and had mood swings galore. I told him I wanted to run away and actually got up and grabbed my wallet and went off. Logic kicked in 20 minutes later and I came back to see if DD was ok.

Then.. it got to the point where I was so depressed, I didn't even want to know her. I wanted to abandon her, but couldn't do it. Then there was that one time.







She was crying because she was hungry and I was reallly tired and sick. I told her to shut up (Yes, I actually told a 18 week old to shut up). She didn't (duh) and kept crying. The crying escalated and I was so annoyed. I saw red.







I screamed at her and actually shook her to get her to shut up (for about 2-3 seconds). She was shocked beyond belief, had the scariest look on her face and screamed. Then I put her down on the bed and cried. I couldn't believe I did that to the one person I loved most in this world. I picked her up and hugged her and told her how sorry I was. I kept crying all day.
















I knew something had to change after that incident. I did end up telling DH what I did. He never said anything bad to me - he knows that will just make things worse than they already are. He just said that I need a break and whatever help I need, he will give me. He also reminded me what a wonderful job I was doing with our daughter and about how much I loved her deep down. I thought he would hit the roof, and I think he wanted to but thought about the consequences first.

I'm a horrible mom. I really am. It makes me sick to even think about what I did.

Anyway.. this week we got the raw milk. We had it come in from another state because there is none available where I live. I gave her a bottle of milk watered down. She didn't take it well at first because she is used to the boob, but ended up taking the bottle. Then she had the bottle for the rest of the day. I hate to say this, but I had never felt so relieved in my life. Honestly, I actually smiled for the first time when feeding her. Then I realized what she had been missing out on - a mother who looked forward to feeding her child, not one that dreaded it. I'm also a little happier overall and haven't cried in a couple of days. I wake up to her beautiful face and kiss it, instead of waking up and wanting out.

Anyway, she took the milk really well. No spitting up, no gas, nothing of the sort. Im shocked and saddened. If only I had this milk available to me when she was a few weeks old. Maybe we could of avoided all of this crap. It turns out it was pasturized dairy that was causing all of this commotion. This makes me sooo angry!!!!
















DH and I talked about things. We decided it might be in my best interest to stop breastfeeding altogether, but it is not in the best interest of our daughter. She needs the comfort (from time to time) and mom's own antibodies and hormones etc. So we decided I would do half and half. We also decided that I will take a break for 6 weeks and do detox/cleanse and then start with a nourishing diet, to get my health back in order. I can now go back to dairy, so long as its raw - such a relief. In the mean time, I am going to pump and dump every 6 hours (dumping because Im doing detox, don't want all the nasty stuff to go in DD's body). I can handle pumping every 6 hours (I have an Ok supply, can get around 8oz in 25 minutes), but can't handle feeding her every hour. Besides, she seems to be satisfied for much longer on raw milk - maybe because its much higher in fat, it keeps her tummy happy for longer. I must make skim breastmilk or something.

If she doesn't take the boob after 6 weeks or so, I'll continue with the pumping and do half homemade formula, half breastmilk. Besides homemade formula is pretty good in my opinion, especially if the milk is of high quality (in our case, raw 100% pasture fed jersey) with healthy organic supplements (coconut oil, unflavored cod liver oil etc). I think she will do really well on a mix. DH has no issues with homemade, but hates commercial.

As for local support. I don't really have much. But it's Ok, I think the worst part is over. We won't be going back into that dark spot ever again.

So now, we are working on getting a regular supply of this milk (for me and her), along with TT coconut oil etc. I think this is the best way for us. I am so sad to see my breastfeeding dreams go down the drain, but I also need to do whats the best for my family overall. Getting depressed to the point of shaking your baby is not best. I feel like such a sh*thead. I am a sh*thead actually.

Anyway I've taken up enough space in this thread. Thanks so much for listening and for all the advice and hugs. I really don't deserve them, but are thankful to have them.


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

naturalmother,























Sounds like you're doing a super job of mothering, considering what you've been through. I don't know that many people who would do so much (like going out of state to find raw milk) for the sake of their baby.


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

naturalmother,








it sounds like you have come up with a great compromise. I'm so glad that you are able to get milk out with a pump-I never got more than an ounce out, and I had to relactate! So I think things will turn out great for you.

PLEASE get yourself some B vitamins!!! Reading over your post I saw so many symptoms of b-vit deficiency. I really think that is what caused all of those problems. Especially if you are not eating any grains or dairy. I'm so glad you are getting some raw milk now.

I've recently been reading about B vitamins because I've made the connection of all of my health problems in the past that are related to a b vitamin deficiency. So I ordered some frontier brand nutritional yeast and will start using that. And I'm going to just try to prepare my foods so that they will bring out the maximum absorption for my body.

If anyone has any more ideas on getting more b vit's please share!


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

You have nothing to feel bad about.







You are doing a wonderful job taking care of you daughter. Motherhood can be very overwelming, especially in the beginning. I had the same kind of feelings run over me during those first few weeks at home. Confined, isolated, depressed, frustrated, overwelmed. It's hard and more mama's need to be told the truth about all those emotions and hormones, and how hard it is to get bf'ing going. I had no supply with either of my children. I was determined to bf ds and when I couldn't feed him I felt so guilty and ashamed. So mush so that I when through relactation at 13 weeks. For almost 3 months I took motilium and pumped on the hour and nursed on the hour. I used the SNS. I got some milk, but barely half an ounce per feeding. In the end I just couldn't take it anymore and niether could ds. He is on commercial formula, but I hate giving it to him. I don't have resources for raw milk, it's completely illegal here in Canada and I don't have a local source who will do it for me.

I think your plan is a good one. If the mama's not well, the baby's not well. You need to take care of yourself in order to take care of your daughter. You can't be fainting on her. You are a smart mama going through a difficult patch and you will overcome it.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

.....am also so sorry mountain mom for interrupting the NT thread with my breastfeeding woes&#8230;.

NaturalMother...you have nothing to apologize for! I am glad you are here, seeking support from like minded mamas!









You are a great Mom!


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

naturalmother, I'm so sorry you're going through this.

I did want to point out, however, that you shouldn't doubt your milk just because she seems satisfied longer on cow's milk. Cow milk has longer proteins than human milk, which is why human milk is better. It's more easily digestible, its nutrients more bioavailable. Cow milk proteins will actually coagulate in the stomach of a baby and take a while to break down (I'm pretty sure they don't even break down completely). This is why babies seem satisfied longer on cow milk/formula. It's not natural, and not something to strive for. Babies need a constant influx of bioavailable nutrients.

I'm not saying this to make you feel bad or anything, so please don't take it that way. You have to do what's best for you and your baby, and I can't pretend to truly understand your situation. I just don't want your deciding factor to be the length of time between feedings, kwim?

FTR, I would never use commercial formula unless I had no choice. I would definitely make it from scratch if I had to.

Have you seen a homeopath at all? I highly recommend it. Mine has been helping me get over a lot of physical weakness.

Mandy


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## myjo (Feb 14, 2004)

Naturalmother, I would do the same as you in your situation. I have three boys, and i have to tell you, there have been times when I too have done things out of pure desperation and frustration that I am not at all proud of. But I guess that's motherhood these days when we have so little support. Did you read Sally Fallon's story of her inability to breastfeed? Don't be calling yourself a bad mother and a *#!head. That won't help you at all, in fact it reinforces terrible feelings about yourself. That's worse for your baby than skim breastmilk.

Are you on cod liver oil? I used to say the very things about myself that you said about yourself when I was badly depressed. The cod liver oil brought me out of that. I used to think that denigrating myself all the time was normal, but it's really not. You don't do that unless you're depressed. I guess it can become a habit though. I know I always stop myself dead in my tracks if I start that up again. I have to tell myself that it is just as unacceptable to say "I hate myself" or "I'm a terrible mother" as it is to say to my ds "I hate you, you're a terrible boy". Mamas matter! You're mental health matters! You're baby's beautiful eyes look right into yours and see your mental state, and it becomes theirs. They are so much happier when mama is happy. And if mama being happy means only bfing part time and giving a wholesome homemade formula the rest of the time, that is what's best for baby.

You're a wonderful mama, and a wonderful person!


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Naturalmother





















, I could have written your post about a year ago. That was me after pregnancy and a year of lactation on a vegan diet. I alternated between thinking of committing suicide or divorcing my DH and leaving DD because I felt so worthless. I was seriously severely depressed.

What brought me out was switching to this diet, including organ meats and cod liver oil. Also a good multi-mineral supplement. I take Total Mins by Country Life. Lots and lots of organic vegetables for their minerals. If organ meats give you the heebie jeebies, then you can get dessicated liver pills. Coconut oil is a biggie too. Bone broths regularly, and making sure to eat the fats from the meats and the broth.

You are not a horrible mom. You have nutritional deficiencies, which can be corrected.

If you're interested in a grain-free dairy-free recipe book based on Weston Price's work, check out the Garden of Eating diet http://www.thegardenofeatingdiet.com . Mercola also has grain-free cookbooks too, though I've not read them.








It will get better! Take care of yourself first, and we're here for you.


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## intentfulady (Dec 31, 2003)

Thanks Naturalmother for showing up and sharing. Thanks Toraji too!!!

I too suffered PPD after a mostly veg. pregnancy. The longer off meat the worse I became!!

I have been watching this thread,learning mostly!.. You seem so knowledgable!

How did you discover that your sympyoms may be nutritional?Who guided you?

I saw your lovely photos, and Growing up in the west slope of the Cascades I am so curious where you are located!Reminds me of home.

I too am so much better! It is a slow process, healing nutritionally and a huger amount of work. But it is so worth it!!!

Thanks everyone for sharing, I am learning so much from you all!

Colleen


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

intentfullady, I don't know if the questions you asked were for me or the whole group, but I'll answer anyway.









I'm up on the north coast of Oregon, so beautiful but so darn cloudy all the time. You'd better believe I'm doing cod liver oil for vitamin D! :LOL

I actually figured out the nutritional deficiency/depression connection AFTER I'd switched my diet. I was so depressed I did not realize that it was a problem. I thought it was just me. We switched our diet because my DD developed rampant tooth decay, and we knew enough about health and diet that this was definitely not normal. I'd been exposed to NT ideas on another board and had previously pooh-poohed it (because I was so healthy, ha ha), but until the tooth decay happened I did not bother doing the research about what constitutes an optimal diet that was evolutionarily correct. I learned a lot from elainie, a poster who used to come here and was at that other board, plus DH and I did a whole mess of research on our own that supported the ideas in NT and other similar traditional diets (like the paleo diet). I give a lot of credit to my DH too, he is very much a critical thinker and questions everything. So I always have to make sure that my ideas hold up to intense scrutiny.

After switching my diet, it was amazing to see the depression and brain fog lift. I had forgotten how good it felt! It definitely was not an instant transformation, it did take some time and tweaking and I'm still tweaking now.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*

After switching my diet, it was amazing to see the depression and brain fog lift. I had forgotten how good it felt! It definitely was not an instant transformation, it did take some time and tweaking and I'm still tweaking now.

Ditto in a big way!

I had no idea that my lack of self esteem at times was due to my diet. Sounds odd but I would really shelter myself from people and internally beat myself up, then I started changing and tweaking and I gained this confidence that I hadn't felt for about 15 years, coincidentally the same amount of time I had been a strict veggie and vegan for.


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## naturalmother (Jan 22, 2005)

First, BIG







I can't thankyou enough for all the support. It really makes a tired, stressed out mama feel human again.









*Queen Gwen* - Thankyou for your sweet words and hugs.







I really do love my daughter (despite my shameful actions). She is my world. I think I am just *severely* frustrated with our current situation overall. But things are looking up, now!

*Tweetybirds2* - I never thought of that. I'll get some B-Vits then! Thanks for the advice!







I think Frontier brand is the one I'm going to use for DD's HM formula.

*cjr* - Raw cow's milk is illegal and unavailable where I live. It is available interstate and is only legal is if it's sold for cosmetic purposes - in our case its called Cleopatra's Bath Milk - and the label says that it's for bathing in, not drinking, even though no one that buys it, does that! They all drink it.









I hope you don't mind, but I found a recipe for you:

FORTIFIED COMMERCIAL FORMULA
Makes about 35 ounces

This stopgap formula can be used in emergencies, or when the ingredients for homemade formula are unavailable.

1 cup Mead Johnson low-iron, milk-based powdered formula, Nutramigen or Alimentum are best and better tolerated but are more expensive
29 ounces filtered water (3 5/8 cups)
1 large egg yolk from an organic egg uncooked. Do not give to infant unless older than four months of age
1 teaspoon cod liver oil

Place all ingredients in a blender or food processor and blend thoroughly. Place 6-8 ounces in a very clean glass bottle. (Store the rest in a very clean glass jar in the refrigerator for the next feedings.) Attach a clean nipple to the bottle and set in a pan of simmering water until formula is warm but not hot to the touch, shake well and feed to baby. (Never heat formula in a microwave oven!)

*mountain mom* - Thanks!









*KatzMama* -

Quote:

Cow milk proteins will actually coagulate in the stomach of a baby and take a while to break down (I'm pretty sure they don't even break down completely). This is why babies seem satisfied longer on cow milk/formula.
I thought this might of been a possibility too. I am trying to break up the bottle feeds so that her tummy can get a break from cow's milk. But because she stays fuller for longer, I am only breastfeeding her every 5 hours or so, then doing 2 breastfeeds in a row, then back to bottle. For example: 9am BM, 11am BM, 1pm cow's, 5pm BM, 7pm BM, 9pm cow's, 1am BM, and so on. So it gives me a break!









I haven't seen a homeopath. What exactly do they do?

*Myjo* - I did read that article - made me feel a bit better!







I have cod liver oil (Nordic Naturals) in my fridge, but the last time I took it I felt incredibly sick. It's orange flavoured and I think the orange essence just got to me. I think I'm going to get the flavourless NN cod liver oil or try carlson's.

Quote:

And if mama being happy means only bfing part time and giving a wholesome homemade formula the rest of the time, that is what's best for baby.

You're a wonderful mama, and a wonderful person!
Thankyou so much for your sweet words. They bought a tear to my eye!









*Toraji* - Wow! I didn't know that food low in nutrients could bring on sooo much. Well, I had an idea.. but not like this! Thanks for sharing your experience!
I'm going to take your advice and up the minerals, too. I actually like organ meats - but our butcher has only been able to get veal liver which I kind of have issues with (left over from my vegetarian days). DH and I talked about re-introducing chicken into our diet (pasture fed of course). I haven't eaten chicken in over 2 years thanks to horrible factory farming practices. But we found some that are pastured and are big (which hopefully means they have led longer lives and weren't slaughtered at 6 weeks of age







).

I wish I could raise my own chickens! Hate living in the city. Oh well. Someday I guess!

*Intentfulady* - Your welcome!









- -

Well, I am excited!







I finally bought some pretty jars to store things like oats, brown rice, quinoa, homemade preserves etc in.I love these jars - they make me want to cook! I'm trying to organise a whole foods kitchen from scratch (we just moved from living with my parents and so haven't bought anything). So if it seems a little silly that I'm getting excited over jars, at least you know my reasons.
















I also found out that our local market does organics on Fridays! WOOHOO! Fresh certified organic fruits, vegies, sourdough bread, live wheatgrass and the list goes on.. all at market prices!







Can't wait to go down this Friday. I am so sick of buying a bag of organic vegies and fruits from the local supermarket. Hardly any selection and the stuff has been sitting there for days on end. At least this way the food is fresh from the farm.

I am going to try and make gingered carrots this weekend.









After 1.5 years of owning the NT book, I am finally going to really get into it and follow the diet properly. I feel like a kid in a candy store.


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## myjo (Feb 14, 2004)

I'm glad things are better naturalmother! I have Nordic Naturals too and it does kind of irritate my stomach. I never thought about the orange oil! Of course that has to be it because oranges bother my stomach. I'll finish up this bottle and get a different kind next time.

I just wanted to tell about this great book I just read. It's written for kids at about the 6th grade level, but it was very interesting to me because it's a Maasai warrior's own story of growing up in the north of Kenya. I'm sure most of us are aware from reading about Weston Price that the Maasai live mainly on milk and blood. They rarely eat meat and have porridge about once a day. The pictures of these people are magnificent! The man who wrote the book, Joseph Lemasolai Lekuton, has beautiful bone structure, and the most beautiful teeth I've ever seen. And get this, he never breastfed. He refused his mother's breast as newborn. His family did everything they could think of to get him to nurse, but he wouldn't. So he grew up on fresh cow's milk. He was fatter than the rest of the babies, which is not considered ideal by the Maasai, but he grew up with a very good physique, and didn't mention ever having been sick. It's a very interesting read, and an especially good book for teaching kids about other cultures. Even my 7 year old was enthralled by it, although it's not a picture book. If you're interested, it's called Facing the Lion by Joseph Lemasolai Lekutan. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

(Just want to add that eating blood is spiritually forbidden in my religion, so it's repugnant to me. But I enjoyed the book nonetheless for what it has to teach about African tribal culture.)


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I started a new thread in the new forum...Mindful home management...in the meal planning section...

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...07#post2603907

Its an NT task thread, where we could share our kitchen tasks and meal planning ideas.

What do you all think.
The new forum rocks!


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## RAF (Aug 13, 2002)

Hello everyone,

I haven't checked in here in a while, since like November but need to hear from similar dieted people. In case you don't remeber me, I have 2 kids and have been NT for a couple years. Before that I was on a raw paleo diet and before that I was gluten and casein free. Now we are into traditional diets with no gluten and lots of animal products. Things are going okay for us, but I am feeling kind of frusterated with the health issues in my family, mainly my siblings. I just talked to my sister (older) who is pregnant, and I feel sad now and frusterated. She has a very bad diet, lots of diet coke and sugar cookies, etc. She still drinks tons of artificial sweetener and stuff even when pregnant and is on all kinds of medicines. Now she has bronchitis from pneumonia. I gave her NT for Christmas the year before last, but I don't htink she really takes any of it seriously or something. I just feel sad for her and her kids that they could most likely be alot healthier. Anyway, I haven't been pushy about giving her advice at all. In fact I don't say anything unless she asks, but I just wish sometimes she would want to get better herself. It just seems sometimes that people don't want to take responsibility for themselves. I don't know. Anyway, it is good to see all of you on here trying so hard to do the best for you and your kiddos.







Thanks for listening.

Rebekah


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

myjo, that books sounds pretty interesting!

naturalmother, it's good to see that things are already looking up for you. LOL at your excitement over the jars--I totally understand! Hey, whatever keeps us motivated, right?









Good to see ya back, Rebekah! I totally understand the feeling of helplessness and frustration from seeing our loved ones health (or lack of) choices. That is sad that she is sick right now.







Sometimes the best we can do is just pray or send good thoughts their way, and hope that they will pull through. They have and make their choices... I always find myself being consuled by the thought that people just truly don't understand, and are doing their best with what they DO understand. But it totally hurts when you know better and don't know how to help the other person get there. They have to find the motivation somehow themselves. At least she has someone as a great example!









I have lots of people that are total diet coke junkies too. I think that they must completely not know or think about the fact that aspartame and caffeine are so harmful. I mean, some are drinking only diet coke...no water (unless you count the ice) at all!! Man...I'm so glad I never got totally addicted to that stuff! That does not sound fun trying to wean off of!


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

oh, and mountain mom--
did you try the sunflower brownies yet? I've been wanting to make those.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
I had no idea that my lack of self esteem at times was due to my diet. Sounds odd but I would really shelter myself from people and internally beat myself up, then I started changing and tweaking and I gained this confidence that I hadn't felt for about 15 years, coincidentally the same amount of time I had been a strict veggie and vegan for.
















Wow, me too! Even before the depression I struggled with poor self image and defensiveness. I had a really hard time dealing with criticism and instead of facing my problems I'd just bury my feelings and hide in my hole. Lately I've been feeling strong and confident, and much more able to deal with my issues.









I am also curious to hear how the brownies turned out! I finally got around to making some almond milk because I really missed having yogurt around, and took a tip from you and turned the nut pulp into cookies. Yum!

The almond yogurt came out pretty well too, though I need to make it more like a nut "cream" next time. Too watery as a milk.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

The brownies were scrumptiliicious! If that is even a word!

I was so excited about them when they were done I was stuttering! Moist and firm, sweet but not too sweet, and incredibley satisfying!

Now the possibilities for tweaking the recipe are endless. I am going to start by adding spirulina powder and a kefir tea for the liquid instead of water.

Mmmm...I highly recommend the recipe!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Hey gals. I've missed you all. Welcome to the new moms. I am working hard here in our little mountain hide-away, pretty much the sole breadwinner right now as my husband works on his asthma. I pop in an read here and there but have almost no on-line time for pleasure activities. I miss you all.

I am finally putting some of my kefir grains to work on some fruit drink concoctions, inspired by all of you water-kefir gals. I think my husband can use any vitamins or minerals (and liquid too) that he can manage. THis will be an additional fun way for him to consume it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
Wow, me too! Even before the depression I struggled with poor self image and defensiveness. I had a really hard time dealing with criticism and instead of facing my problems I'd just bury my feelings and hide in my hole. Lately I've been feeling strong and confident, and much more able to deal with my issues.









me three. wow. Lately, I have felt like I could do anything. In fact, I took a big fall on Sunday after bringing in eight wheel barrow loads on firewood. I went out to get some starter wood, sun wasn't up yet, hit an icy stair and flew head first down the railroad tie stairs. My shin and chin bore the brunt of the fall. I took an inventory, had all of my teeth and limbs, got up and got the starter wood and went to the chiro the next day. My reaction was definitely part of this new me -- I was amazed at my body's musculature in being able to recover so easily. I didn't cry, was a bit shaken at first, and then a bit proud. It's pretty cool.


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## myjo (Feb 14, 2004)

Can I start a new February thread? I know I'm new, but I was just thinking this thread is getting really long! Anyway, I'll start one and see if anyone want's to come on over. Here's a link:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=245038


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