# having issues with DH being circ'd



## MysteryMama (Aug 11, 2006)

i have pretty much always been anti circ, but everyone i have ever been with (and there have been more than a few) has been circ'd. im totally commited to my DH but im having a hard time accepting the fact that i will never experience sex with an intact man. im not going to run out and hunt down an intact man and have an affair or anything like that, but i have been lamenting this issue for a while now and i just can't seem to totally get over the... dissapointment, for lack of a better word. i have mentioned to DH how im curious about what it would be like and how much i would love for him to consider foreskin restoration, but he refuses to consider it, which doesn't surprise me at all- if it was up to him DS would be circ'd! in my mind i just KNOW it would be SO WONDERFUL. don't get me wrong, i have always enjoyed sex with DH, i just somehow know it would be even better if he was intact. sigh. anyone have any suggestions how i can just forget about it?


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## oneKnight (Aug 4, 2006)

I feel that way a lot.
But then I have to remember that I married the MAN, not the penis.
My DH wishes he wasn't cut, but we both know that he didn't get a choice so no use wishing about it now. He is open to restoration but we haven't really started on it yet.
I think of how I would feel if I did get to meet someone who was uncirc'd and what if it really was all that much better? I would always think of that when I was with DH and that would kill our relationship. DH is the best I've had and I'm going to be happy with what I've got.
After I made that decision the "what ifs" fade away into the background. They're still around but not so prominent. I guess it's like a lot of things that you wrestle with for a while but eventually they fade in time.


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## ~Kira~ (Sep 16, 2004)

I'm so sorry - I don't have any any advice - but I just wanted to give you a










Do you have a copy of the book "The Joy of Uncircumcising"? Might be worthwhile to get and leave in the bathroom....

- Kira

PS. Don't know how into toys you are, but I did find a rather impressive *a-hem* intact "man-replacement"







Interested parties may PM me for the link


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## mika85 (Aug 9, 2006)

ugh, i feel exactly the same way as you jeannie!







knowing what i know now, its hard to even _look_ at it without seeing that awful circ scar. i know its not all about the sex. yeah, we hear that intact sex is way better and who doesn't want to improve their sex life, but more importantly, its depressing because he's not a whole, natural man, as he was intended to be, kwim?







something important was taken from him in the most traumatic way possible and that is sooooo sad. i'm glad i found out the truth about circing before i had a son, but at the same time, i'm upset over learning about the damage that was done to my dp. we've both agreed that if/when we have a son he would remain intact, and i've told him all about this issue. but he still doesn't think anything is wrong with his penis, he doesn't feel like he's missing anything, because its all he knows, i guess. you can't talk him into restoring without bruising his ego, either. i wish there was an easier way and i wish i had advice for you, but i had to let you know you're defiantely not alone in feeling that way.


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## KMK_Mama (Jan 29, 2006)

I feel the EXACT same way.









I have been thinking about it so much, that I actually had a dream the other night that I had sex with an intact penis and had my very first orgasm during intercourse....and it was wonderful. I told my DH the next day and he asked if it was him and to be honest, I have no idea! LOL
All I saw was the penis, no face. Hehehe.

When I brought up restoration, DH was totally open and has actually just started the process in the last few days. I hope all of the work it's going to take is going to be worth it.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:

its depressing because he's not a whole, natural man, as he was intended to be, kwim?


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

e


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Sucks doesn't it? I used to feel pretty cheated that DH had his penis mutilated, and I've always been honest about it. It wasn't that our sex life wasn't good (on the contrary, sex has always been great), it was that something was not as it should be (for both of us).Now that DH is restoring I'm feeling less and less cheated, but even when he has fully restored I will continue to mourn what was done to him (RIC).


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## wackynaturelady (Oct 3, 2002)

I feel the same way. DH was pro-circ when DS2 was born. Now, over the course of the year-and-a-half I have known the truth about/been opposed to circ, I have swayed him and DS1, (whom I, unfortunately, circ'd before 'getting it'), to the anti-circ camp!









After reading an article about the Joy of Uncircumcizing, DH finally started restoring several months ago, but still gets ambivalent and stops for a while, (even though he gained a whole inch of penis!) I just try to get my selfish curiosity about sex with an intact man out of the way, so that I don't push him. It's hard at times, though, not to give in to temptation and say, "oh, come on, ppplllleeeeeaaaasssssee"







. Our biggest struggle with it is that he takes it that I am not happy with him or something. I tell him repeatedly it is more about how exciting I find it that being intact allows him much more pleasure, (which is the truth). I have to reassure him of that often, but he does get it most of the time and is now back on with restoring.

I don't know if it's true, but I do have a friend who has been with both and said it wasn't too much of a difference. Just my thoughts. Hope this helps.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

I used to have this feeling but I got over it and it passed. For me it was a sign that I was spending too much time thinking on circumcision and visiting this board. The serenity prayer works. Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Life is never fair, but you can change some things. Use that anger to change circumcision of new babies.


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## MysteryMama (Aug 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mika85* 
its depressing because he's not a whole, natural man, as he was intended to be, kwim?

mika, i know EXACTLY what you mean.


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## kimkabob5 (Oct 25, 2002)

I feel the same way. All I can see is that angry red scar line. And I still don't know what to do with it manually. It's like the skin is stuck and there's nothing to do with it. Sex can be rather painful too because of the way he has to do it in order to climax. I sound like I am complaining. I love my dh, but it's unfair to him and to me too that his penis was mutilated at birth. He won't consider restoring so my chances of experiencing natural sex is pretty much out the window. That makes me sad and frustrated and angry.

I am mostly angry with his mother. She wouldn't do a bris because "it's barbaric", but it's not barbaric to have it done in the hospital with no anesthesia? What kind of warped logic is that???


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

It is really difficult to see it IRL and know what is missing. That is difficult for me now, and I try not to look at it when it's flaccid at all.

I am with one of the previous posters, I have my dreams of only men who are intact...generally foreigners (my self conscious is more assured about their status). Can't help it, that is probably the one thing I would actually want if I could choose. I am not a materialistic or shallow person at all...but I mourn the loss. You would think that his right to full genital function would have been protected, but our country let us down







.

DH tells me all the time he wish that his mother had been like me. Sigh, not for the genital issue only...but I really love the kids and do everything I can to protect and nurture them (seriously lacking in his family).


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Kimkabob5, I could almost exactly write your post.

I've started threads like this before. For me it's very difficult because I can't say that the sex is great - so it isn't easy to forget why. The older I get the more it hurts and now I just don't even want it. I used to be very into sex.

It's really painful because I love DH like nothing else in the world, and I grieve for him more than myself. He really has no idea what sex is supposed to be like. And he feels guilty (and I assume inadequate) because it hurts me.

I do agree completely that we have to use our pain to work to stop the butchery. It's the only way to make it mean something.


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## MamaRabbit (May 26, 2005)

I thought about posting this same thing a few weeks ago. My DS is circed (my DH won that battle), but now that DH sees that it's slightly done wrong, he's suddenly anti-circ but just for his own future boys. But now, all I can see is his scar. I just can't even look "down there" right now.

DH is still generally pro-circ though because his dad is majorly pro-circ (to the point that when he was 12 he circed himself).


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kannon99* 
(to the point that when he was 12 he circed himself).

Do you mean that quite literally? Or that he got circumcised?

Jessica


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## MamaRabbit (May 26, 2005)

FIL circed himself. He was 12 and was the only one not circed in his orphanage and was teased horribly. (this was in the 1930s)


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kannon99* 
FIL circed himself. He was 12 and was the only one not circed in his orphanage and was teased horribly. (this was in the 1930s)

OMG sounds like some serious sexual abuse.


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## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

I feel the same way. Our sex life SUCKS too, which doesnt help. I mean, we maybe have sex once a month, the last couple of months we havent had sex at all. Dh has almost no sensitivity so I dont think he enjoys it a lot. I dont enjoy it a lot cause it hurts and I cant have an O with him. It just sucks. Dh also was restoring-for like 3 weeks-and then gave up, well over a year ago. He even had progress! It totally bums me out.
Does this mean I would leave him or something? No, not for that, never. I totally wish he was intact BUT I think it might be a good thing I havent ever slept with an intact man, otherwise I might be even more bumbed. I dont know exactly what I am missing out on, so I think it makes it easier. However, the fact that he isnt restoring anymore, purely because he is lazy (he has said it himself, this is the only reason he isnt working on it-he really has no emotional issues, his two bros are intact, so this wasnt some new idea to him that circing was wrongk, he just thinks its too much work) does pi$$ me off to some extent. We have other issues too, so I am not saying we wouldnt ever break up-we have been close before. But I wouldnt leave him over his penis status.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

This is the kind of thread all those "he'll never get oral sex" and "what if his partner wants him circumcised?" people need to read. Gobs of women wishing their husbands hadn't been circumcised.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
I used to have this feeling but I got over it and it passed. For me it was a sign that I was spending too much time thinking on circumcision and visiting this board.









:
Count me in, not because sex is awful, it's not, it's actually pretty good, but because I get feel so sorry that it happened to little Baby Dh, and that neither of us will ever know what could have been. I'm not going to run out and find an intact man to sleep with, but I wish dh would consider restoring sooner rather than later (he's made a few comments about it being one of his midlife crisis things, ya know, buy a fancy car, restore his foreskin).


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

Sign me up! I cried about it last night


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## oneKnight (Aug 4, 2006)

Thank you Galatea for posting! I saw your siggy links when I first joined, lost the links when my computer crashed, couldn't remember the member and have been trying to find that signature again!


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## Leersia (Oct 27, 2005)

I have to admit that after having browsed this thread last night before bed, I had a dream that I was in a subway full of tall, handsome British men







!


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oneKnight* 
Thank you Galatea for posting! I saw your siggy links when I first joined, lost the links when my computer crashed, couldn't remember the member and have been trying to find that signature again!

Why, thank you.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

.


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## KnitLady (Jul 6, 2006)

Italians.


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## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

i may get slammed here (for why i dont know yet) but i have been with both an intact man and a circ. man and *I* honestly did not feel it contributed greatly to my sexual pleasure.

**** please read: I am ANTI-CIRC****. all the way. i see no reason for it.

However, I don't think you gals shoudl be sad over something that your dh's don't have, esp. if your sexual relations are good. I believe it has more to do with the man than the condition of his penis.

I admit to not reading alot about the advantages TO WOMEN of men not being circ'd. I read more about the advantages TO MEN.

and im not posting this to be contrary in any way. Im simply posting my experiences...it has never mattered in the past whether a man was circ'd or not. Other factors have played greater roles in my sexual satisfaction.

having said this, I wish my first 2 sons were not circ'd and will talk about foreskin restoration with them. not so much for their wives' benefit, but for their own.

of course, i am always willing to learn if there is something else i shoudl be telling them. im just saying that i never found that to be the case.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

2


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## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705* 
I guess some women are more resilient to the jackhammering and hard chafing edges. Some of the women here do have ok sex...but some of us never get any pleasure due to chafing and fierce pounding. If you cannot have halfway pleasurable sex in a marriage...the marriage WILL suffer even if everything else is good.

i totally agree. i simply posted b/c it seems that some posters do have good sex lives and i wanted to offer the perspective that it may not be better with an intact man, if he is deficient in other manners relevant (if ykwim).
i feel badly for any woman who experiences what you describe but i just never have.
i just didnt want some women thinking that the grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side. as a friend of mine has said, that grass also needs mowing! lol!


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## Lila (Dec 5, 2001)

I have had a few thoughs along those lines, but I wonder how I would feel if I had to have...say...a mastectomy and DH thought all the time about how he would like to be with a woman with 2 breasts. KWIM?
I'm VERY happy with DH, and have had to resolve that I will deal with the occasional discomfort because the positive about our bedroom life is much better than the negative is bad (does that make sense?)


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Yep, practically our entire generation of American men is circ'd (rate at 90% when they were babies.) It is a travesty. BUT you and I both broke the cycle of violence by keeping our own sons intact. That is/can be incredibly healing.

Our men were attacked. As helpless babies. Through obviously no fault of their own. I know you're not disappointed in your man, but he could take it that way. Heal his wounds (the ones he doesn't even know he has) from his circumcision by just loving him that much.

My dh will never restore, either, and that's ok. It's his body.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

w


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705* 
...but some of us never get any pleasure due to chafing and fierce pounding. If you cannot have halfway pleasurable sex in a marriage...the marriage WILL suffer even if everything else is good.









: So I'd heard that the chafing was due to lack of foreskin.. never heard the fierce pounding part! (How many times do I yell "OW!! NOT SO HARD!"?) I wish dh would listen to me.. he's pro circ. I'm pregnant with a girl so that debate has been postponed at least, heh. With being preg, my drive is down to begin with. And feeling like a hole is being stabbed through me while being rubbed raw, while pretending not to hate it (so as to not turn him off.. the goal is for him to be QUICK) yeah.. it doesn't happen often at our house







I am honest with him that lately I DON'T enjoy it. (I did pre-preg) He hates more than anything anytime I even bring up circ, he just doesn't want to hear it.


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## hookahgirl (May 22, 2005)

The "jack hammer effect" is how I got ALL of my (girl) friends to become anti-circ. You would be amazed at the looks of "OH I get it" as soon as you tell them that sex isnt always supposed to be a "bang up job". if you KWIM.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hookahgirl* 
The "jack hammer effect" is how I got ALL of my (girl) friends to become anti-circ. You would be amazed at the looks of "OH I get it" as soon as you tell them that sex isnt always supposed to be a "bang up job". if you KWIM.

Thanks for sharing that you and *all* your girlfriends understand!! I am thinking that the majority(as in, over half) of women are having serious sexual issues with their circ'd partners. I am just learning that I most likely do NOT have a dysfunctional vagina! It is sooo empowering, but at the same time I am feeling cheated and angry.


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## hookahgirl (May 22, 2005)

Yeah it is like a lightbulb goes off. I thought they would think i was nuts LOL but they are totally jumped on board.

My DH is circ'd. Poor guy. He gets sad about it too.


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## kimkabob5 (Oct 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lila* 
I have had a few thoughs along those lines, but I wonder how I would feel if I had to have...say...a mastectomy and DH thought all the time about how he would like to be with a woman with 2 breasts. KWIM?
I'm VERY happy with DH, and have had to resolve that I will deal with the occasional discomfort because the positive about our bedroom life is much better than the negative is bad (does that make sense?)

You are lucky that circumcised sex isn't painful for you. It never was for me until I hit my late thirties. Now it feels like I'm being poked and prodded rather than being made love to. Even with lube, I'm just not enjoying the lack of mobile skin that would provide the necessary glide that would make sex more pleasurable.

I don't think it can be compared to a mastectomy. The man is not going to experience painful sex just because a breast is missing. Psychologically he may have a hard time with it but not physically. I don't have issues with dh because of what his penis looks like but because of the limited ability of what it can do. And it makes me angry, not only for him, but for me too.


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LiLStar* 







: So I'd heard that the chafing was due to lack of foreskin.. never heard the fierce pounding part! (How many times do I yell "OW!! NOT SO HARD!"?) I wish dh would listen to me.. he's pro circ. I'm pregnant with a girl so that debate has been postponed at least, heh. With being preg, my drive is down to begin with. And feeling like a hole is being stabbed through me while being rubbed raw, while pretending not to hate it (so as to not turn him off.. the goal is for him to be QUICK) yeah.. it doesn't happen often at our house







I am honest with him that lately I DON'T enjoy it. (I did pre-preg) He hates more than anything anytime I even bring up circ, he just doesn't want to hear it.


My DH was like this too, then we found out we were having a girl and it got put off. A while ago I brought it up to him, and he was pro-circ still. Then our daughter was born and I think that changed alot for him. I again brought up my case and he agreed that we wouldn't circ if we had a boy!

Anyway, we had a chat about it the other night, the sexual part of it that is, and he was amazed at all the info about how sex w/ a circ'd man can be harder, and he said he would actually consider restoration. I can't believe how he's done such a 180.


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## MysteryMama (Aug 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lila* 
I have had a few thoughs along those lines, but I wonder how I would feel if I had to have...say...a mastectomy and DH thought all the time about how he would like to be with a woman with 2 breasts. KWIM?
I'm VERY happy with DH, and have had to resolve that I will deal with the occasional discomfort because the positive about our bedroom life is much better than the negative is bad (does that make sense?)

It's kind of different though, cause if I had a mastectomy I would have my boobs reconstructed (only bigger, lol) and DH would NEVER even consider foreskin restoration. I also don't try and make him feel bad about his penis or anything...


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

1


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I didn't read past the posts that I'm addressing, so please forgive me if this was covered.

Aisrealtax, I would ask if you notice a trend regarding the age of the women... As a youngster I also not only "could take a pounding", but it was pleasurable. I thought sex (with my circed partner) was the best thing ever in my early twenties.

Would it have been even better with the gliding action of an intact penis? Probably. Do I greive even a small interference (in my younger days) in mine and my partners' connection and pleasure? You bet.

But now it is just plain painful. It's a _major_ loss in my life - sexual pleasure from intercourse, that is.

I don't really see it as akin to a mastectomy. I don't think that our DH's bodies would necessarity suffer pain during something so fundamental as sex, from a lack of boobs. It would be more akin to a man losing a different part of his body and the grief associated with that. But when it's a functionally important part of the sex act - specifically that the modification create pain - there are deeper complications entirely.

And I really dread what is happening to my body as the damage accumulates. I really hope that when I'm older I'm not in constant pain, or have incontinence issues from a lifetime of being jackhammered.

And let's talk about what it does to DH to know that his pleasure hurts me. Only sadists are into that. For DH it's a deep sadness he can't really cope with.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705*
I definately wouldn't say I was normal in that area and expect dh to be turned on by it. *sigh* such a tough subject









True dat.


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## Mountaingirl3 (May 21, 2005)

Quote:

The serenity prayer works. Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Life is never fair, but you can change some things. Use that anger to change circumcision of new babies.
ITA. For me, the grief comes and goes. It helps to remember that even if I had known back when I met dh about the evils of circ, I still would have chosen him. He is my best friend and we will find ways to have a good sex life in spite of this.


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mountaingirl3* 
ITA. For me, the grief comes and goes. It helps to remember that even if I had known back when I met dh about the evils of circ, I still would have chosen him. He is my best friend and we will find ways to have a good sex life in spite of this.

I feel the same way. I still would want to be married to DH, even if I had known before. He's a wonderful guy, and a wonderful father. I am happy though that he's open to fixing things by looking at restoration


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## PJJ (Sep 28, 2006)

What does restoring mean? How is it done?

I have an uncircumsized husband. I have only been with 2 men. The other was circ.

I am very happy with my husband.

Not trying to brag, just learning about being an advocate for male babies.

I plan to go to the March next year at the Nation's capital and take my daughter since one day she will decide for her baby. I hope my husband will influence her enough to not do it.

Take care.


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## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

My DH is restoring, but I really thought intact was gross before I came to MDC. But to me I really would not care if he was restoring or not, I love my DH and enjoy having sex with him wether he is intact or not. I really don't care about it, makes no difference to me YKWIM. Maybe you could get an intact toy, that's foreskin moves just like a real mans


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PJJ* 
What does restoring mean? How is it done?

I have an uncircumsized husband. I have only been with 2 men. The other was circ.

I am very happy with my husband.

Not trying to brag, just learning about being an advocate for male babies.

I plan to go to the March next year at the Nation's capital and take my daughter since one day she will decide for her baby. I hope my husband will influence her enough to not do it.

Take care.

www.norm.org

We all hope your daughter will never have such a choice. I can't wait to see infant genital mutilation outlawed for good.


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## MysteryMama (Aug 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705* 
www.norm.org

We all hope your daughter will never have such a choice. I can't wait to see infant genital mutilation outlawed for good.


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aisraeltax* 
i totally agree. i simply posted b/c it seems that some posters do have good sex lives and i wanted to offer the perspective that it may not be better with an intact man, if he is deficient in other manners relevant (if ykwim).
i feel badly for any woman who experiences what you describe but i just never have.
i just didnt want some women thinking that the grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side. as a friend of mine has said, that grass also needs mowing! lol!

I see what you're saying, but if I have a great sex life with my circ'd dh, how much better for both he and I woul/could it have been if his parents hadn't consented to his mutilation?







:


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemy2ds* 
My DH is restoring, but I really thought intact was gross before I came to MDC. But to me I really would not care if he was restoring or not, I love my DH and enjoy having sex with him wether he is intact or not. I really don't care about it, makes no difference to me YKWIM. Maybe you could get an intact toy, that's foreskin moves just like a real mans









Do they make those? If not, someone should email the gals over at Good Vibes!


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

If you don't mind sharing, what are the ages of the women, here, who are having trouble due to their partner's circ?


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## kimkabob5 (Oct 25, 2002)

I'm 38. It's only been recently that it has been an issue.


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

19. and it only started to bug me since getting pregnant. It made me extra sensitive to the hammering and chafing :\


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

I am only 28 but got married when I was 23 and have always had issues. Dh's circ is very high and tight. If we go longer than say 5 minutes I end being sore. I just thought that is how sex was.

Oh, and ditto to the pregnant thing. If I thought sex was painful before, it was unbearable while pregnant.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

.


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

So, is there a possibility that the dryness (I'm assuming that's the issue??) could be the result of a combination of things - including emotional states? How is it possible to tell the issue is exclusively related to the circ?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I'm 32 and became sexually active around 21-22?? I've had 2 partners.

My first partner didn't have the extensive removal that DH does, and sex was very enjoyable for *ahem* _very_ lengthy seesions.









DH is larger, very high and tight circ, and sex has always been somewhat difficult - even when I was 25. Since pregnancy is when it became very painful from start to even a quick finish. It's beyond impossible for me to climax through intercourse - or even enjoy it. And I really miss it.

I don't see that this is simply about dryness. Lube just isn't the solution, like most doctors rather dismissively suggest it is. It's so far beyond that. I'm always way wet, even still. (Sorry for the tmi...) In the past _that_ has been a problem in that my partner couldn't get the friction he needed to finish because of the moisture. That wouldn't be the case if a forskin were involved.

To me an analogy would be like having a precision-tooled machine with a crutial gear missing and then suggesting that it just needs some oil to work properly. I really don't mean that snarky, May. Just that for those with this problem it's so obvious that it's not dryness.

I do believe that pregnancy is a big factor in the "change" - as much as age is. Also the individual penis (size, shape) and the outcome of the circ (remaining sensation, tightness...) are considerations, I imagine. But it seems fairly consistent that eventually, most women have difficulty long-term from circed penises.

And don't get me started about how it's put on women to carry the shame of disfunctional sex - that we're "frigid" and whatnot. It's _completely_ and exclusively on the shoulders of _those who propagate genital mutilation_.

twins - I feel ya. It's a massive problem in a marriage that causes unbearable sadness on both sides, with no easy answers.







DH used to feel bad about early climax (another circ related complication), and now feels bad if it takes more than a few seconds. Can you even imagine that dilemma?!?







It's completely inhumane for him.


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

I feel so sad for the ladies here (everywhere) who areunable to enjoy loemaking with their DPs because of circumcision







:

For those whose partners are intereted in restoring and have tight circs, do you they would be willing to stretch their skin, not to the point of coverage, but until their skin moves loosely over the shaft? My dh is restoring and he's at the point where his skin glides over the shaft (butdoesnt have coverage of the penis) and this has made a huge difference in the way sex feels.


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## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CryPixie83* 
I see what you're saying, but if I have a great sex life with my circ'd dh, how much better for both he and I woul/could it have been if his parents hadn't consented to his mutilation?







:

i see what you are saying. i was just pointing out that it isnt always better with an intact partner. many factors are involved other than circ.

i do have to say that this thread has been very educational for me. I never realized that women had sexual issues with circ'd men. It never occured to me that a circ. penis "operates" differently inside a woman differently than an intact mans (in my mind's eye, i thought the foreskin just pulled back and stayed back during intercourse). This was very enlightening and gives me one more reason to be an advocate against circ. It also makes me much sadder for my first 2 sons who are circ'd. I will definitely speak to them about foreskin restoration, but how exactly does that work? Isn't that another operation? Does anyone know whether there is a lot of pain involved?

Perhaps i should start another thread.

im sorry for all the mamas that have issues with this.


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

I'm 22. Had this problem with my last partner at 18 years old as well.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aisraeltax* 
i see what you are saying. i was just pointing out that it isnt always better with an intact partner. many factors are involved other than circ.

i do have to say that this thread has been very educational for me. I never realized that women had sexual issues with circ'd men. It never occured to me that a circ. penis "operates" differently inside a woman differently than an intact mans (in my mind's eye, i thought the foreskin just pulled back and stayed back during intercourse). This was very enlightening and gives me one more reason to be an advocate against circ. It also makes me much sadder for my first 2 sons who are circ'd. I will definitely speak to them about foreskin restoration, but how exactly does that work? Isn't that another operation? Does anyone know whether there is a lot of pain involved?

Perhaps i should start another thread.

im sorry for all the mamas that have issues with this.

It isn't surgery -- it is just gentle stretching using tape or a device(when there is enough loose skin) for several hours per day...it takes a long time, but a lot of women on here say they could feel a difference just within a couple of weeks.
I believe www.norm.org tells more about restoration.


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

Thanks for the feedback to my questions.







I hope it wasn't offensive that I asked.

I totally hear and respect what you ladies are saying. You have my support and attention. I want to learn more about this aspect of circumcision and I'm going to check out the link. Thank you for posting it.

I'm looking at this like a puzzle. There seem to be multiple parts to it and, like aisraeltax mentioned - I too believe there are other factors that can contribute to healthy sex vs. painful sex.

I have never been sexually involved with an intact man. To tell you the truth, this thread title caught my attention b/c I am curious if it would be even better if my partner weren't circ'd. But I am clear that it is just a matter of degrees, and that my feelings are only based in curiosity as opposed to necessity. We don't have any sexual problems together and never have, even while pregnant. I HAVE had sexual problems with other partners in the past, however. I associated those experiences with the emotional qualities of those relationships. I know that even with my partner, sex during emotionally-challenging times is not _as good_ as when things are more peaceful, but it's still good. I guess I hust don't know how to tell the difference between, yk?


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705* 
I just don't think the two parallel -- because the mastectomy thing would be more a cosmetic/psychological issue and not physically inhibit intercourse. Really, how can one parallel breasts and penii??

A better comparison would be the woman having some kind of surgery on her vulva/vagina that desensitized and hardened her to the point she needed to move in an unnatural way and concentrate intently to climax which made sex painful as well as detached for the man and made his penis sore, red and swollen after intercourse...not to mention that he hardly ever gets to climax because by the time his girl is done, he is already too turned off by the pain and the artificial mechanics. To top it all off -- the frankenvulva wife/gf tells HIM that HE has the problem and he must just not be into her...oh yeah, and maybe he should look into some herbs to deal with the chafing etc.









We aren't talking about asking these men to restore for cosmetic reasons, rather -- to restore *a basic functionality* to the marriage bed!









Just had to say, I loved this post! It really articulates the frustration I have felt about this issue and how important this is to those of us who have been "rubbed the wrong way" and told it is US who are the problem and not the mutilated, unnatural penises that hurt us.

I am 22. Dp no longer "pounds away"- he has to try hard to glide and hit the right spots. It's like he has to consciously mimic what would be a natural motion for an intact penis.


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

From reading other threads here, it also makes a difference whether the man has a tight or a loose circumcision, i.e. how much of the foreskin was removed. If all of the foreskin and the frenulum were removed, he has a tight circ. If it's only part of the foreskin, it's a loose circ. Women with a loosely circ'ed partner tend to have fewer complaints.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May* 
Thanks for the feedback to my questions.







I hope it wasn't offensive that I asked.

I totally hear and respect what you ladies are saying. You have my support and attention. I want to learn more about this aspect of circumcision and I'm going to check out the link. Thank you for posting it.

I'm looking at this like a puzzle. There seem to be multiple parts to it and, like aisraeltax mentioned - I too believe there are other factors that can contribute to healthy sex vs. painful sex.

I have never been sexually involved with an intact man. To tell you the truth, this thread title caught my attention b/c I am curious if it would be even better if my partner weren't circ'd. But I am clear that it is just a matter of degrees, and that my feelings are only based in curiosity as opposed to necessity. We don't have any sexual problems together and never have, even while pregnant. I HAVE had sexual problems with other partners in the past, however. I associated those experiences with the emotional qualities of those relationships. I know that even with my partner, sex during emotionally-challenging times is not _as good_ as when things are more peaceful, but it's still good. I guess I hust don't know how to tell the difference between, yk?

Well, I think this is key. I feel that it's because of the compound factors that the major role circ plays in this problem is minimized.

I thought it was, well, just about anything else than circ for years. I thought it was issues around my fundamentalist upbringing or past sexual abuse that made me clam up - even though I'm generally very sexually open and comfortable. I thought it was a fight we'd had weeks ago... You get the idea. But in a more global anaysis it can't be avoided that circ is the common thread. And IM current O, why woudln't it be?! Take away a major part of a moving, working mechanism, and how can there _not_ be a breakdown?

There is a cycle too, that women who have decent sex lives may not understand. I didn't until with DH. When we have a painful or negative encounter, we get a little wary the next time because of the memory, so it's harder to get aroused. When it's harder to relax and get aroused, the next experience is even worse, and the cycle continues...

It's not the same as a generally good sexual relationship that occassionally turns out a bad experience, that you overcome with a few healthy romps. There is no easy way out of this because our partners are permanently _damaged_. *Some to the point they don't even understand what the sexual response is or how it works.* This was really big for me to wrap my mind around. They don't know how to help us when we're talking about something outside their paradigm completely.

I'm not offended at all that anyone is asking about this. In fact, I hope that we can talk openly about what it's like. If new mothers really knew about this for what it really is, I don't think a single one would allow their sons to be cut. IMO it's extremely important that we help women understand the true root of what I imagine many must be experiencing. The devestation of circ would be real to them, and not debatable, theoretical, or easily forgotten.


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## oneKnight (Aug 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *njeb* 
From reading other threads here, it also makes a difference whether the man has a tight or a loose circumcision, i.e. how much of the foreskin was removed. If all of the foreskin and the frenulum were removed, he has a tight circ. If it's only part of the foreskin, it's a loose circ. Women with a loosely circ'ed partner tend to have fewer complaints.

Probably.
My DH's circ looks bad, but it's not that tight and even when he's hard the skin will move quite a bit. I think he has unconsciously helped himself out.
I'd only had one partner before DH and he masturbated the "normal cut way" with lube. When I met DH I was surprised to see him do it differently, I have come to find out that he pulls his skin more like a whole man would. I'm not sure if it's because he had more skin to begin with or if it's given him some basic stretching over the years. That's the first step for some men to restore and I think my hubbs has been doing it without even knowing it!


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## karen1968 (Oct 2, 2006)

I ducked into this thread a couple of days ago, and quickly ducked out again. I was so _offended_, for some reason, that women would so actively think of sleeping with another man just because their husbands were circ'd, and I felt like I should just stay out of it. But I couldn't stop thinking about it and felt like I had to come back here and post my thoughts.

Please know that I am firmly







and have been for over 10 years.

IMO, it is as much _or more_ about the *PERSON* as it is about the *PENIS*.

I am (nearly) 38. In my 20's, esp., I was very sexually active. I've had over 20 partners, about equally split between circ'd and intact. I've had very good and very bad sex on both sides of this fence. That pounding, jack-hammering type of sex? The worst of that I ever had was with an intact partner. It was awful, painful, and I never felt more like I was just a hole to him. Some of the best sex I've had was with a circ'd partner. My husband is circ'd and the sex is usually very good (we all have our bad days!).

After reading the pages of posts that came after I first read this thread, I realize that it is often the _*degree*_ of the circumcision that contributes to the problem, so perhaps I am generalizing too much in my opinions. DH has loose skin, even when erect. Some intact men don't have much skin movement when erect (in my experience...). Would sex be better with my DH if he were intact? Maybe for him. It's pretty damn good for me at the moment.









Every person is different, every penis is different. No two circ'd penii are the same, and no two intact penii are the same. Some men just have horrible sexual technique, and need to be "taught" how to better pleasure a woman (I'm NOT saying this is the case with anyone in this thread! Just in general...). Some men's technique can make up for their, ahem, short-comings. That's life.

I doubt this would ever happen, but it would be interesting to see the results of a clinic trial where women experiencing painful sex with a circ'd parnter were to have sex with an otherwise-identical (hah!) intact man. How much difference would there be in the pain/pleasure ratio? Maybe not as much as you think.


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## mika85 (Aug 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karen1968* 
I ducked into this thread a couple of days ago, and quickly ducked out again. I was so _offended_, for some reason, that women would so actively think of sleeping with another man just because their husbands were circ'd, and I felt like I should just stay out of it.

really? people were saying that?


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

I think the women here were joking about having dreams about Eurpean men.







No one was saying they were going to leave their dh for an intact man.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Karen1968: So, are you saying that you think the problem lies in the relationship and that the missing body part has nothing to do with the consistent painful sex for *so many* women(who have had plenty of partners btw!)?


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

I am uncomfortable with the continuing blame on _women_ for this problem, & making people afraid to openly discuss it for fear of being ridiculed & minimized & invalidated concerns me. IF you don't believe a mutilated body part can contribute to painful intercourse, can you (general 'you', I've seen this before here) please express it without the 'I can't believe!' & 'I'm shocked' &tc?

We are finally starting to have a meaningful dialogue beyond 'OMG, I can't say this, it'll hurt someone's feelings, & it's probably all my fault anyway', & I don't want to move backwards here. Honesty can only help.


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:

I am uncomfortable with the continuing blame on women for this problem, & making people afraid to openly discuss it for fear of being ridiculed & minimized & invalidated concerns me. IF you don't believe a mutilated body part can contribute to painful intercourse, can you (general 'you', I've seen this before here) please express it without the 'I can't believe!' & 'I'm shocked' &tc?

We are finally starting to have a meaningful dialogue beyond 'OMG, I can't say this, it'll hurt someone's feelings, & it's probably all my fault anyway', & I don't want to move backwards here. Honesty can only help
Thank you. This is a really important topic and I appreciate everyone's support and honesty. It is not an easy thing to discuss.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

With regard to the mastectomy comparison, I wanted to say that I agree with the others who have pointed out that breasts don't impact the mechanics of intercourse...but also that the psychological affect is different. Firstly, because our society has never seen the absense of breasts on a woman as 'the norm' and secondly because the scar she bears is generally the result of a life-saving surgery. In the case of circumcision, the scar represents ignorance, senseless violation, robbery, etc.

Like a scar resulting from torn labia caused by sexual abuse during childhood, the fact that many women react to the sight of it with anger, grief, and resentment that someone they love so much was hurt so badly only proves that they are human.

Jen


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Karen, I have been thinking about your post and I have a few questions if you don't mind. I'm not being snarky - I really want to understand.

Do you actually see in this thread that we are saying that circ = bad lover and intact = good lover? Because I really don't see that said or implied anywhere in our stories, but it does seem that you are characterizing it as such. We have said overtly that we love our partners and are glad to be with them. I'm a little put off by the implication that we objectify our spouses just because we are grieving their multilation and it's effects on our marriages.

Is your purpose for posting what you did to say that, because of your experience with a variety of lovers, we who are suffering along with our partners from their circ are mistaken about the cause of the problem? I ask this because it really feels dismissive to me that you seem to be trying to discredit our feelings and experiences.

*And if we are saying that circ can't possibly do anything positive for anyone's sex life, are you disagreeing with that? I see that you are opposed to circ. So what is the problem when we share how it's hurting us, our DHs, and our marriages?*

I'm hoping you will be willing to clarify the reason for your post. That is, I'm hoping that I misunderstand your point.


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## karen1968 (Oct 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705* 
Karen1968: So, are you saying that you think the problem lies in the relationship and that the missing body part has nothing to do with the consistent painful sex for *so many* women(who have had plenty of partners btw!)?

*Not at all!* In fact, if you read my post, you'll see that I said: "IMO, it is as much or more about the PERSON as it is about the PENIS." _As much_. Not _only_.

I don't think you can put ALL the blame on the circ, just like you can't put ALL the blame on the person, either the man or the woman.

As for whether or not the relationship contributes? In some cases, I'm sure that it does. Occasionally, intercourse with my husband becomes painful. When it does, I tell him, and we change what we are doing - usually to a position that feels better for me, where I am the one in charge of angle and depth. That usually releives the problem _for us_. I realize that won't always work with all couples.

Look, what originally prompted my post were comments like these:
"I think of how I would feel if I did get to meet someone who was uncirc'd and what if it really was all that much better? I would always think of that when I was with DH and that would kill our relationship."
and
"im having a hard time accepting the fact that i will never experience sex with an intact man"
and
"knowing what i know now, its hard to even look at it without seeing that awful circ scar."

There were only four or five posts at the time.

Perhaps I should have stayed out of this thread. But the OP ended her post with: "anyone have any suggestions how i can just forget about it?" I was trying to share my experience that sex isn't always better with someone who is intact; in fact, it can be worse.

Before I read this thread, I would not have thought a circumcision could cause such problems because it's never happened to me. I still don't think you can put the blame *solely* on that, but I now realize that it can be a contributing factor, and even a significant one.


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## mika85 (Aug 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karen1968* 
I don't think you can put ALL the blame on the circ, just like you can't put ALL the blame on the person, either the man or the woman.

i don't think anyone's blaming all their sex problems on circ, but it is certainly a huge contributing factor, that's all. when a major part of a sexual organ is missing, it's safe to assume that, hey, maybe this is why its not as good as it could be. it's not his fault, and its certainly not a reason to up and leave your dp/dh, but it just...sucks.

i think i can safely say that mostly, we are just bothered by the fact that our men aren't in their natural state. its very sad to a lot of us when we realize what our men had to go thru as infants.


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## Lila (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimkabob5* 
You are lucky that circumcised sex isn't painful for you. It never was for me until I hit my late thirties. Now it feels like I'm being poked and prodded rather than being made love to. Even with lube, I'm just not enjoying the lack of mobile skin that would provide the necessary glide that would make sex more pleasurable.

I don't think it can be compared to a mastectomy. The man is not going to experience painful sex just because a breast is missing. Psychologically he may have a hard time with it but not physically. I don't have issues with dh because of what his penis looks like but because of the limited ability of what it can do. And it makes me angry, not only for him, but for me too.

I DO have pain, but I have decided not to let it affect how I feel about my DH because he's more than just a penis,
And I'm not comparing the procedure to a mastectomy. Good grief. I only meant that it would make me feel like crap if my dh was unhappy with me because I was missing a part of my body that was beyond my control. It would absoulutely devistate him if he thought that I was discontented with him because someone else chose to mutilate him.
Honestly.


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## Greeneyes0506 (Aug 31, 2006)

.


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## dnr3301 (Jul 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oneKnight* 
Probably.
My DH's circ looks bad, but it's not that tight and even when he's hard the skin will move quite a bit. I think he has unconsciously helped himself out.
I'd only had one partner before DH and he masturbated the "normal cut way" with lube. When I met DH I was surprised to see him do it differently, I have come to find out that he pulls his skin more like a whole man would. I'm not sure if it's because he had more skin to begin with or if it's given him some basic stretching over the years. That's the first step for some men to restore and I think my hubbs has been doing it without even knowing it!

I had a conversation with my dh a while back about this very thing. He was confused about the scar and how does it make a band all the way around (I don't think he really understood the whole double layeredness of the foreskin at the time) and I couldn't explain it without a visual, so he pulled his out and we talked and I pointed and tried my best to gently explain how they did it. In the process, I also explained that his is a relatively loose (no coverage, but moveable skin when erect), and that some are tighter and have no moveable skin and he had an "Aha!" face, and said, "that's why there's all this talk about using lube or lotion or something when guys masterbate, I never knew what they were talking about." Honestly, until that very moment, I had never put the two things in context either.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greeneyes0506* 
I feel like this too. And whenever I think about my poor DH being strapped down and cut without no anesthesia I cry pretty hard.

I know. I went to a conference over the weekend about prenatal and perinatal psychology, and basically learned that they remember everything, at least on a cellular level, and I came home and hugged dh and cried a little and said, "I'm so sorry they hurt you." He said, Oh that's alright. and I said, "no it's not, they shouldn't have done that, and I'm sorry and I love you." But I completely understand you getting upset and the thought. My heart aches for little baby dh, strapped down and cut, with no one to love him right then, so scared and alone. Sometimes it's hard not to feel sad, even when we are being intimiate, and then I get distracted, not because I'm repulsed or dont find him attractive, but because I get sad he was hurt. It's hard not to remember that when it's in use.







And I can't tell him then, because the last thing I want to do is make him think too much about it, or for him to feel I don't want to be with him. I love him and don't want to add to the pain. So even if the damage isn't physically affecting the relationship (with pain with intercourse), it is emotionally. And I'm not saying it's leading us down the path to divorce or anything, but I should be able to have sex with my husband without feeling sad.


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## mika85 (Aug 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301* 
My heart aches for little baby dh, strapped down and cut, with no one to love him right then, so scared and alone. Sometimes it's hard not to feel sad, even when we are being intimiate, and then I get distracted, not because I'm repulsed or dont find him attractive, but because I get sad he was hurt. It's hard not to remember that when it's in use.







And I can't tell him then, because the last thing I want to do is make him think too much about it, or for him to feel I don't want to be with him. I love him and don't want to add to the pain. So even if the damage isn't physically affecting the relationship (with pain with intercourse), it is emotionally. And I'm not saying it's leading us down the path to divorce or anything, but I should be able to have sex with my husband without feeling sad.

ita.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

dnr3301, I totally agree with your entire post. Thank you for saying it so clearly.

Karen, I see better where you are coming from. Thanks for explaining. I think that where I see it differently it that you are drawing a line between the person and the penis, stating that it's more about the person.

Well, true, but it's not so simple a dichotomy IMO. My DH is a whole wonderful person whom I love dearly and am proud to be married to him. But he is profoundly impacted by the abuse of his circ, and not just the mechanicals of sex. His psychology and emotional selves were severely traumatized as well and his penis. So I can't separate the pieces so easily.

I mean, I'm not really able to divide out what parts of _me_ are sexual and what aren't - it's all a part of my identity as a human.

I said before that something that was major for me to understand was that he can't even understand a normal sexual response because he's never had one. It's outside of his sexual paradigm. I don't think he's ever actually orgasmed. I think he simply ejaculates and that's all he knows about that pleasure. This is directly because he has very little left of his erogenous tissue. This is a penis problem that affects the whole man I love.

He used to lose patience with me because he didn't even realize what I was expecting to experience and I lost patience with him because I expected that he knew what sex was like. But he doesn't.

Over the years we're learning to work together about dealing with drastically different sexual responses. Even that has been difficult because he is extremely closed to talking graphically about sex in a personal sense. He talks like a guy a lot - in that locker room sort of way, but once it turns personal about us he gets very defensive and makes nervous jokes to break the tension.

Is that person or penis? I think both. The person is emotionally scarred b/c of what was done to his penis. So I can't draw that line.

So to rephrase something I said before, there are certainly degrees of this. My past lover was very sexually open and loving. I had a wonderful experience with him and am grateful that my first was such a caring partner. He was circed. Not so thoroughly as DH, but still mutilated.

Even though my first experience was wonderful, I know that he was still mutilated, and not experiencing what was his birthright about his body - even though it wasn't as extreme as DH's handicap.

I'm really uncomfortable with any arguement that we should minimize the impact of circ if it's "not that bad". I'm uncomfortable about that thinking in any sense - like I often hear that if a child is only spanked rarely that it's not abuse because other kids are beaten daily. Some people even claim that it's offensive to call spanking abuse because it waters down the word from when it describes emotional torture. But if abuse isn't abuse if there is worse abuse in the world, then by that logic no one has been abused if they weren't holocaust victims or tortured by a sadistic serial killer.

Can we all agree that any amount of mutilation and loss of innate sexual feeling qualifies as a problem? Can we then take that further that any effect circ has on a sexual relationship - even if it's just a little - is still a violation of the sexuality of the people involved - and stop making disctictions about the degree and whether it qualifies as a problem? I think it's a disctraction taking away from our solidarity about identifying a and speaking with one voice about an atrocity.


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:

I don't think he's ever actually orgasmed. I think he simply ejaculates and that's all he knows about that pleasure. This is directly because he has very little left of his erogenous tissue.
Would you mind elaborating on this? I always thought that the only time men orgasmed was at ejaculation. Am I missing something? I have never been with an intact man so I fully admit there is a lot I don't know.


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## karen1968 (Oct 2, 2006)

Aria - I'm not trying to draw a line between person and penis; I think they are intrinsicly entwined.

And I'll repeat that my post was intended to address the original posters, who did NOT have the degree of difficulty experienced by you and your husband, or others who posted after. They merely expressed curiosity about what the "other side" was like, and regret they had never experienced it.

I'll admit that i have a hard time understanding what you are going through, because I have never experienced it. It is mind-boggling and horrible that such a degree of disfunction can occur from a circumcision. I'd never heard that before reading this thread.

This is obviously a highly emotional subject about which *I* am not highly emotional. So, it's time for me to bow out of this thread.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Karen, I do appreciate where you are coming from, and I'm glad to hear that you have not experienced this issue to the level some of us are describing. I really hope you're not leaving this thread because of me - I'm sorry if my back-and-forth was too strong.

Sometimes things are hard to see or understand until we take it to a hyperbolic extreme so that the nature of the thing we are looking at becomes more obvious. I hope that the fact that I (and several others here) are _actually experiencing_ such a hyperbole will clarify this problem better to those who are having only minor circ-related issues, but can't quite identify them. Maybe they can do something about it before it gets out of hand.

Gemelos, from what I understand, the original purpose of RIC was to remove as much sensual feeling but still leave the ability to procreate unaltered. IOW, do just enough damage to stop sexual pleasure without ending the species.

Also, I know from other men with full functioning, that they can actually experience orgams and train themselves not to ejaculate until they want to. Apparently, it takes time and concentration, but is possible. For those men who have learned to control it, the sensations are very different, and they describe ejaculation as pleasurable in it's own right, but in a different way than orgams.

So it does seem plausible to me that the two functions - orgams and ejaculation - are well connected, but not the same thing.

In my observations of DH, he shows no signs whatsoever of orgamsing. Ever. No build up of energy, no muscle contractions, no point of concentrating only on that feeling, no change in heartrate or facial expressions. Nothing. He comes with just a little stimualtion and then it's over. So I believe that he only experiences the equivalent of minor arousal, and finds ejaculation pleasurable and equates that to orgams.

But IMO, he has never gotten to that point. He doesn't understand when I describe it, and can't describe any sensations of orgams himself.

I hope that explains better what I was getting at... DS calls!


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gemelos* 
Would you mind elaborating on this? I always thought that the only time men orgasmed was at ejaculation. Am I missing something? I have never been with an intact man so I fully admit there is a lot I don't know.

Most people aren't aware that just as women can orgasm and ejaculate seperately (many women don't ejaculate at all), so can men. Ejaculation and orgasm, while usually simultaneous, are not the same thing. Some men are able to have multiple Os without ejaculating.


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

Ok, this is amazing to me. I have never heard of such a thing. Both being able to orgasm and not ejaculate and ejaculate without orgasm. I really want to learn more about this. So is orgasm without ejaculation a normal with intact men? I have asked dh before if sex even feels good before ejaculation and from what I understand it is just a nice feeling but not anything amazing. It sounds like circ'ed men just work towards ejaculation and that is their main sexual feeling. I am so glad we are talking about this because I am just clueless.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gemelos* 
It sounds like circ'ed men just work towards ejaculation and that is their main sexual feeling. I am so glad we are talking about this because I am just clueless.

Yes. And I think those who initated RIC back in the day were exactly trying to achieve this.

I _don't_ believe (from what I've heard - not that I could know) that O and E are _easily_ separated in intact men. I think those who are interested in controlling it practice it. I have heard this from intact men, and read in (IIRC) the kama sutra translations that it was a spiritual practice undertaken to achieve hightened states, and to conserve life energy lost from E.

It was long ago that I read this - I don't know if I have that just right...


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira* 
Also, I know from other men with full functioning, that they can actually experience orgams and train themselves not to ejaculate until they want to. Apparently, it takes time and concentration, but is possible. For those men who have learned to control it, the sensations are very different, and they describe ejaculation as pleasurable in it's own right, but in a different way than orgams.

So it does seem plausible to me that the two functions - orgams and ejaculation - are well connected, but not the same thing.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *CryPixie83* 
Most people aren't aware that just as women can orgasm and ejaculate seperately (many women don't ejaculate at all), so can men. Ejaculation and orgasm, while usually simultaneous, are not the same thing. Some men are able to have multiple Os without ejaculating.









I've never come across this being discussed anywhere before, but my circed dh is able to have 'multiples'. The way he describes it is a lot like I describe my orgasms...having a release, but not letting go of the tension completely, then letting it build again. I suppose the difference is that he generally ejaculates, at least a little, with each orgasm. Generally, two is his limit...but when we were first together, I remember him getting 4-5 orgasms in one session.

Jen


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture* 
I've never come across this being discussed anywhere before, but my circed dh is able to have 'multiples'. The way he describes it is a lot like I describe my orgasms...having a release, but not letting go of the tension completely, then letting it build again. I suppose the difference is that he generally ejaculates, at least a little, with each orgasm. Generally, two is his limit...but when we were first together, I remember him getting 4-5 orgasms in one session.

Jen


My first (circed) partner was also able to do this, and could have powerful orgasms. It's my assumption that most circed men orgasm to some degree. I assume that those with very extensive removal of erogenous tissue are the ones who possibly never O.

But again, these are just my speculations... FWIW.


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## linguistmama (Sep 25, 2006)

Yes, you read correctly, as horrible as it is! This is such an awesome thread, I had not thought about circ. affects our sexual relationship. My DH decided to have the surgery even though I didn't think it was a good idea. It was very important to him so I stopped trying to dissuade him. I wish I could have shown him this thread though since he decided to get circ'ed for sexual reasons. I would have tried harder to dissuade him If I had read this first!

The recovery was horrible, although I think the doctor considered it pretty normal. There was alot of sweling and bruising, its so sad to think of this being done to a little baby. The worst part for my husband was how worried he was that he would be deformed when he saw all the swelling and bruising in such a sensitive area (physically and emotionaly). To me he is a walking anti circ advertisement!

I have a question since so many people on this thread know quite abit about the sexual effects of circumcision. My husband decided to get the surgery because he felt like he didn't get enough sensation on the head of his penis, like the foreskin just stayed over it all the time instead of moving over it. Normally though the foreskin was easily retractable when not having intercourse. So I don't really understand his theory, but he used to take 45 minutes to climax and now it only takes 20 minutes or sometimes less. Anyone know why that would be? I don't know if its an emotional difference or what, but he still takes awhile and has to concentrate quite hard. I would appreciate any ideas and HIS STORY IS IN NO WAY A PLUG FOR GETTING CIRC'ED! I just would like to get some help for this since 20 min. is still to much for me, especially with the stronger thrusting.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

The tantric thing reabsorbs the ejaculate into the bladder; there is ejaculation, it is just internal. I don't think that has anything to do with circ'd or intact status.


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## bburnie2 (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
I used to have this feeling but I got over it and it passed. For me it was a sign that I was spending too much time thinking on circumcision and visiting this board. The serenity prayer works. Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Life is never fair, but you can change some things. Use that anger to change circumcision of new babies.

The serenity prayer is my daily mantra. It speaks volumes for every aspect of life.

I often too wonder what it would be like with an intact man. There was one guy that *might* have been intact, but I never knew for sure. All I knew was it was sooo different with him-

I think the most upsetting thing for me is that my dh (others might be different) has to be fast and rough to finish. We cannot have that slow soft sex- he simply needed that fast pounding sex to get there- even with that were talking a good 20+ minutes of the actual act itself. Hes not the 2 minute man, never EVER has been. And I am the first woman hes been with- even at the begining of our relationship- he needed that rough stuff. I can only assume that is a direct result of his circ and the keritization of the glans.

Your not alone...

(((hugs)))

Beth


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Sometimes, men will be almost a bit hypersensitive initially after circumcision, but as time passes and the glans begins to keratinize (dry & thicken) sensitivity progressively decreases.

linguistmama, your husband could have had a shorter frenulum or his foreskin might have been a little on the snug side when erect...either of which could probably have been helped by some gentle stretching or a topical steroid cream.

Jen


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

I have a question about the soft slow sex. Dh can do that for a time but he would never be able to orgasm that way. Are you all saying that intact men can do it soft and slow the entire time and still orgasm that way?


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## linguistmama (Sep 25, 2006)

"How long ago was the circumcision?"

It was 3 years ago and he still climaxes after about 20 minutes which is how it was soon after the circumcision. No matter what we do during sex it still takes this long, despite more or less exciting sex. The only time he comes sooner is if we have gone for quite awhile without sex, like when I was pregnant.

"PS: Linguist? What language(s)??"

Portuguese and Spanish. I was an exchange student in Brasil and DH is from Mexico.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

:


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture* 
Sometimes, men will be almost a bit hypersensitive initially after circumcision, but as time passes and the glans begins to keratinize (dry & thicken) sensitivity progressively decreases.

linguistmama, your husband could have had a shorter frenulum or his foreskin might have been a little on the snug side when erect...either of which could probably have been helped by some gentle stretching or a topical steroid cream.

Jen

I got to thinking this might be the issue when I was at lunch after I last posted...

So sorry that he felt it necessary to circ.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

OK, So I think I'm finally able to understand what's been eating at me about those who are bothered by this thread...

If you don't mind sharing, is your discomfort with our saying that we want to experience intact sex that you think we don't want _our_ partners? Or do you think that we want to cheat? I'm not sure I get it.

To me, my desire for whole sex is part of _my_ humanity and personhood - not about disliking DH or wanting a different partner. I see it as a birthright that I've been denied due to circumstance - just like the partner I chose has been. It's a deep part of _me_ (my sexuality) missing - just like DH's - not a desire to eshew my DH.

I want _him_ - whole. Just can't have it.

If you guys would please explain what's so disturbing here, I'd love to know and have to opportunity to explore it.

Thanks!


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## karen1968 (Oct 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira* 
If you guys would please explain what's so disturbing here, I'd love to know and have to opportunity to explore it.

Thanks!

OK, I'm going to try to do this without pissing anybody off







:

It took me a while to figure out what was bothering me. At first it was the whole idea that intact sex must be better, somehow, that the grass is greener, etc, and that you/they/she must be missing out by never being with an intact man. And in my experience, that just isn't true.

Now, though, I understand the problem is deeper for some, and although that seemed to be the original "issue" of the thread, the posts that followed brought up different issues.

I am still puzzled by the women who carry so much sadness/anger re: their DH's circ. I guess - because of my life experience or just because that's the way I've always been - I've learned to accept that things are just the way they are, and why put so much energy into something you can't change? (I'm thinking specifically about the poster(s) who said she cries just thinking about her DH's circ.)

I *know* it's not the equivalent, but I don't understand it any more than someone mourning the fact that their partner's finger was cut off in a schoolyard accident. Yes, it's horrible, and yes we wish it never happened, and yes, even, it might affect the things he is able to do or how he functions, but why not deal with the fact that it happened and move on? Figure out how you can, realistically, make the situation better, and direct your energy toward that.

IMO, there is very little to be gained by anger directed toward DH's parents/doctors/society for something that happened 20 or 30 or more years ago. The world was a different place then, and his parents aren't you, and you wouldn't make that choice...


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## Piercedboy (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karen1968* 
OK, I'm going to try to do this without pissing anybody off







:

It took me a while to figure out what was bothering me. At first it was the whole idea that intact sex must be better, somehow, that the grass is greener, etc, and that you/they/she must be missing out by never being with an intact man. And in my experience, that just isn't true.

Now, though, I understand the problem is deeper for some, and although that seemed to be the original "issue" of the thread, the posts that followed brought up different issues.

I am still puzzled by the women who carry so much sadness/anger re: their DH's circ. I guess - because of my life experience or just because that's the way I've always been - I've learned to accept that things are just the way they are, and why put so much energy into something you can't change? (I'm thinking specifically about the poster(s) who said she cries just thinking about her DH's circ.)

I *know* it's not the equivalent, but I don't understand it any more than someone mourning the fact that their partner's finger was cut off in a schoolyard accident. Yes, it's horrible, and yes we wish it never happened, and yes, even, it might affect the things he is able to do or how he functions, but why not deal with the fact that it happened and move on? Figure out how you can, realistically, make the situation better, and direct your energy toward that.

IMO, there is very little to be gained by anger directed toward DH's parents/doctors/society for something that happened 20 or 30 or more years ago. The world was a different place then, and his parents aren't you, and you wouldn't make that choice...


I felt the same way when I read this post originally. I actually called my DW from work because I was so offended by the idea that a woman could talk down about her husband or partner because of something they had no control of. I do understand that for some people, sex could be better, but I don't think that excuses belittling or talking bad about one's partner because of choices made by their parents so long ago. I'm not going to say much more than this, because I don't want to hurt any feelings, but this thread made me really uncomfortable.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira* 

I want _him_ - whole. Just can't have it.


Me, too. And I was angry about it, but then I was able to give up the anger once MIL and FIL both apologized to him/us for his circ.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karen1968* 

I *know* it's not the equivalent, but I don't understand it any more than someone mourning the fact that their partner's finger was cut off in a schoolyard accident.


One, we're talking S---E----X. Everything is more pronounced when dealing with sex. How sex feels to me is, in part, a function of how sex feels/is for dh.

Two, it's not just _*my*_ dh's "accident" or "surgery" or whatever we're comparing it to. It's the fact that _*an entire generation*_ of men was mutilated in this way. It's a collective mourn, I think.

If, *GOD FORBID,* my dh were to die, it would be very, very difficult for me to find an intact American man about my age. That's a sobering thought.

Three, although I haven't actually cried about dh's circ, I understand doing so. He was a tiny, helpless baby when they attacked him. That makes me sad. And then there's the thought of what it may or may not have done to dh emotionally when he was abused in a sexual and painful way as just an infant with lots of cortisol flooding through his vulnerable neurotransmitters.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira* 

If you guys would please explain what's so disturbing here, I'd love to know and have to opportunity to explore it.



Just playing devil's advocate here.........I think it's partially the need to perpetuate the myth that "circ'd men are just fine!!!" as described here:

http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vuln...ty_of_men.html


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnr3301* 
Sometimes it's hard not to feel sad, even when we are being intimiate, and then I get distracted, not because I'm repulsed or dont find him attractive, but because I get sad he was hurt. It's hard not to remember that when it's in use.







And I can't tell him then, because the last thing I want to do is make him think too much about it, or for him to feel I don't want to be with him. I love him and don't want to add to the pain. So even if the damage isn't physically affecting the relationship (with pain with intercourse), it is emotionally. And I'm not saying it's leading us down the path to divorce or anything, but I should be able to have sex with my husband without feeling sad.


This reminds me, perhaps, of what a man may think about/feel during sex with a woman who had been raped or molested. And they wonder why we compare circ to rape.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

A scar or missing piece that's a result of life-saving surgery (mastectomy) or even an accident of some sort (schoolyard loss of finger) just doesn't compare, IMO, to a scar that results from sexual assault/violation. Earlier in this thread I said that feeling sad about a husband's circumcision scar is more comparable to a husband who grieves when he sees/touches a scar on his wife's labia, previously torn during a violent act of sexual abuse when she was a vulnerable _infant_. It's just a hard thing for some of us to process/heal/forget about, especially as parents. It's always there. And many of us are activists so this issue is a part of our daily lives in another way as well.

You know how once you have kids of your own those horrible stories on the news of children being aducted or killed just hits you differently, right in the pit of your stomach? I think the same is true for how many of us react to this issue. A circumcision scar, just like a scarred labia from sexual abuse, is _evidence of a crime_. A sexual crime. Inflicted upon a beautiful, perfect, innocent, previously trusting child.

Jen


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
This reminds me, perhaps, of what a man may think about/feel during sex with a woman who had been raped or molested. And they wonder why we compare circ to rape.









ITA

Jen


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture* 
A scar or missing piece that's a result of life-saving surgery (mastectomy) or even an accident of some sort (schoolyard loss of finger) just doesn't compare, IMO, to a scar that results from sexual assault/violation. Earlier in this thread I said that feeling sad about a husband's circumcision scar is more comparable to a husband who grieves when he sees/touches a scar on his wife's labia, previously torn during a violent act of sexual abuse when she was a vulnerable _infant_. It's just a hard thing for some of us to process/heal/forget about, especially as parents. It's always there. And many of us are activists so this issue is a part of our daily lives in another way as well.

You know how once you have kids of your own those horrible stories on the news of children being aducted or killed just hits you differently, right in the pit of your stomach? I think the same is true for how many of us react to this issue. A circumcision scar, just like a scarred labia from sexual abuse, is _evidence of a crime_. A sexual crime. Inflicted upon a beautiful, perfect, innocent, previously trusting child.

Jen

well said. ITA.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705* 
You know, putting the fact that all our men were violated and mutilated as babies aside, the thing that bothers me the most is that a lot of these men still see their circumcised anatomy as normal and would rather just continue down the path of less and worse sex than even dream about trying to restore some of what was lost *for the benefit of both and the relationship as a whole.*

While I *do* understand that coming to grips with what was done and then beginning the journey of "uncircumcising" is not an easy one for most men, I do not think that their women should have to be martyrs and I do not think we should be considered militant for pressing the restoration issue. It is his body, yes, but it is OUR sexual relationship. I feel like I've been a sexual martyr my whole adult life and I am sick of it. Sick of being told that I'm probably just frigid(I most certainly am not) unless I fake enjoyment -- or that I must need to purchase some "meds for that" or buy stock in Astroglide because the whole moisture issue is 100% about the woman(not that moisture or lack thereof is even the main/worst problem).

If *ANY GIVEN WOMAN* had a low-risk, correctable deformity that made sex painful and just plain crap for her dp/dh -- how many people would be telling her dp/dh to just grit his teeth and live with it?? The double standard here is beyond sickening. blah.

This is just so totally spot on!!

-----

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piercedboy*
_(bolding mine)_ I actually called my DW from work because I was so offended by the idea that a woman could *talk down about her husband or partner* because of something they had no control of. I do understand that for some people, sex could be better, but I don't think that excuses *belittling or talking bad about one's partner* because of choices made by their parents so long ago.









What? Are you just skimming this thread and then filling in the details with imagination? No one said anything like this - talking down about, or belittling our partners. What are you talking about?







:

-----

**EDIT**

I'm deleting the rest of this. I just don't know if what I said can possibly be productive... there's clearly more misunderstanding here than I can take on right now.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)




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## runningwithlola (Mar 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mika85* 
yeah, we hear that intact sex is way better and who doesn't want to improve their sex life, but more importantly, its depressing because he's not a whole, natural man, as he was intended to be, kwim?







something important was taken from him in the most traumatic way possible and that is sooooo sad. i'm glad i found out the truth about circing before i had a son, but at the same time, i'm upset over learning about the damage that was done to my dp.


I felt this way for a LONG time after learning the truth about circing and what it did to my poor DH. He has a lot of the complications - scars, skin bridges, his penis is very crooked, the list goes on. It almost made me wish I had never heard of intactivism, b/c I felt so sad for his poor mutilated penis - but then I feel a little better that we were able to save our son(s) from the same fate. He is interested in restoration, but we have never done anything about that yet. I'm sad for him that he will never (in this life anyway) get to know what sex was meant to feel like. It's horrible that that was taken away from him without his consent. It took a while for him to grasp the enormity of what was taken from him. Despite the horror, he has been dealing with it well. I think it is depressing to him, but I also think he really gets that there is no going back, and so chooses not to wallow in it. I have to give him credit, b/c if I found out that had done to me, I would probably never, ever be able to deal with it rationally.

And I was also a little sad that I will never get to experience sex with an intact man... but like someone said, I love him for him, not his penis. lol.

It really did take me a while, after I learned how awful circumcision really is, to get over the fact that it was done to my poor DH - for a while I just pitied him whenever I saw him naked - and his penis actually began to look *wrong* to me, probably after seeing my intact son nakey all the time - but the emotional impact has faded a bit with time.

I haven't read the entire thread, but I see that a lot of women have posted that this has caused problems with sex and marriages, and I really do feel for you, though that isn't the case for us. I can surely see how it can have an enormous impact.


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## BennyPai (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira* 
This is just so totally spot on!!

I've also cried plenty because sometimes the pain is so severe that I can't even move after sex. During, I close my eyes, grit my teeth, and count until it's over. I know this will sound really over the top, but I sometimes feel like the whole experience feels like rape (and yes, I've been there) - _except that I do *want* to be having sex with the man I love who is *not* forcing me._

But my body is yelling - screaming - *NO PLEASE MAKE IT STOP!!!* _And to honor my own body and respect what feels OK to me mean I would never have sex with my husband again!!_ How much does that suck? I'm in love with him.

I have experienced this prior to meeting my husband. It is awful. I really hated sex. I felt hopeless. I wondered if I deserved the pain.







:
I didn't know much about the difference between intact & circumcision regarding a woman's experience until I followed some links here during my second pregnancy. Since then, I've often wondered if that is why sex has been a better experience with my intact dh. ?

I don't understand why it is disturbing to others that women would like to enjoy sex, too. & People are so quick to say things like, "Poor guy - his wife has lost her sex drive." There is definitely a double standard regarding sex in this society.


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## karen1968 (Oct 2, 2006)

Damn, aira, did you completely miss this portion of my post??

"Figure out how you can, realistically, make the situation better, and direct your energy toward that."

*I do understand that this is a very real, very present day problem for you.* What I don't understand is the energy spent in railing against this thing that can not be changed (the circ), and why that energy is not instead spent on finding a solution.

That was my intended point.

And yeah, it sucks that RIC was perpetuated among generations of men. Aside from inventing a time machine, I don't see how we can do anything about that. Hopefully we can change things for the present and future generations, but the past? No.

Since neither of us will ever see the others point of view, I will (again!) bow out of this thread.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karen1968* 
Damn, aira, did you completely miss this portion of my post??

"Figure out how you can, realistically, make the situation better, and direct your energy toward that."

No I didn't miss it.

I also didn't miss the part about it not being equivalent to a finger accident, but that you don't see why we feel more strongly about it than that.







That's the disconnect I addressed. It seems important to me that the obstacles to men understanding what's up with us are shown in the light.

No sh!t it's more productive to try to make the situation better. That's what I'm here doing. That's what DH and I work toward. But seeing as the only realistic solution is to convince the men to restore - and they are not all open to that - it's important to speak accurately about what's at stake.

It really feels like I'm hearing something like: "Yes it's a problem, but let's not talk about how bad it is - let's just find a happy solution so we don't have to think about _that_ stuff."

Isn't it a Dr.Phil-ism... You can't fix what you don't acknowledge... ?

So maybe those who are too uncomfortable with this whole topic to hear about it aren't the ones in the best position to offer viable answers??

Answers like: _"Figure out how you can, realistically, make the situation better, and direct your energy toward that."_ Do you think this is the first I thought of this? How about the celebate 25 year-old?







: Do you really think this is helpful?


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

People always get prickly when sexuality is discussed candidly, & it's quadrupled when exposing the truth about circumcision.

I am not willing to shut generations of American women back up in the closet because the subject makes some uncomfortable. If it doesn't apply to you, wonderful. What are you adding to the soup, & why?

(This seems to me like some disinterested person going to the 'Surviving Abuse' forum to tell everyone there to 'just get over it'. How dismissive; how patronizing.)

Lastly, if just ONE person is saved from circumcision by reading the brutally honest accounts of what this industry, this sham, this collective societal nightmare has done to _women_; if one lurker out there is weeping in relief realizing that _it's not her_, I really don't give much of a rat's hinder if others not directly involved feel a little squicky reading about it. I'm not trying to be snarky or rude (really!), merely direct. People get squicked out seeing people nurse in public, too. Deal.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira* 
Isn't it a Dr.Phil-ism... You can't fix what you don't acknowledge... ?



And I would add..........our unacknowledged wounds hurt us more than our acknowledged ones.

I don't get the general philosophy of "don't ruminate on what you can't change." Gee, if I could change it, I wouldn't have to ruminate on it, now would I!


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
I am not willing to shut generations of American women back up in the closet because the subject makes some uncomfortable. If it doesn't apply to you, wonderful. What are you adding to the soup, & why?

...Lastly, if just ONE person is saved from circumcision by reading the brutally honest accounts of what this industry, this sham, this collective societal nightmare has done to _women_; if one lurker out there is weeping in relief realizing that _it's not her_, I really don't give much of a rat's hinder if others not directly involved feel a little squicky reading about it.

























Well said, ITA.

Jen


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

Thank you, Tigertail!







And thank you again to all the women who have shared here. I think there should be a support thread for women of circ'ed husbands. I think that is what this thread could have been, but too many people want to jump in and add their 2 cents and tell us that circ'ed sex really isn't that bad and we should just accept it and move on. What is wrong with grieiving and working through our feelings with a group that can relate? I am learning a lot here.


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## Acksiom (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705* 
If *ANY GIVEN WOMAN* had a low-risk, correctable deformity that made sex painful and just plain crap for her dp/dh -- how many people would be telling her dp/dh to just grit his teeth and live with it??

Plenty. This is post-femelitist north america, remember?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705* 
The double standard here is beyond sickening. blah.

What double standard would that be?


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

The double standard that only men are allowed to enjoy sexual intercourse but women have to pretty much STFU and GBTW...

You know the whole jock culture of "YEAH MAN!!! you scored!!! RAAAH!" vs "OMG She had sex with HOW many guys? OMG what a SLUT!!!" Combined with the "man she's so frigid, there's gotta be SOMETHING wrong with her to not like my hunk of man meat"

the whole men are the sexual agressors vs women are the sexual passive..

Honestly I dont get it either..but







: I guess it is prevelant. I know I've been called a many nasty name for my promiscuity, but a male who was equally sexually promiscuous was given high fives..

Double standard one way double standard the other...life is full of em..and it stinks.


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## Acksiom (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114* 
The double standard that only men are allowed to enjoy sexual intercourse but women have to pretty much STFU and GBTW...

Pretty much dead and gone in the western world, and I don't think that's what she meant, either.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114* 
You know the whole jock culture of "YEAH MAN!!! you scored!!! RAAAH!" vs "OMG She had sex with HOW many guys? OMG what a SLUT!!!"

No, actually, I don't, because the "jock culture" in fact tends to categorize sluttiness as a relative positive. It's the "princess culture" that tends to negatively characterize female promiscuity. And again, I don't think that's what she meant.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114* 
Combined with the "man she's so frigid, there's gotta be SOMETHING wrong with her to not like my hunk of man meat"

Since comparatively no one demonstrates giving a crap about how good it was for the man ITFP, that's actually a double standard in the opposite direction. And yet again, I don't think that's what she meant.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114* 
the whole men are the sexual agressors vs women are the sexual passive..

That's not a double standard; that's an empirical observation. And still yet again etc.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114* 
Honestly I dont get it either..but







: I guess it is prevelant.

I'm a serious and experienced observer and analyst of such matters, and I don't just guess to the contrary; I actively assert it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114* 
I know I've been called a many nasty name for my promiscuity, but a male who was equally sexually promiscuous was given high fives..

Which was likely due in large part to a highly positive value being placed upon your sexual worth and integrity compared to a negative one being placed upon those of said male. Again, actually a double standard in the opposite direction.

And once more yet still again etc.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Um, guys?

Can't we all agree that what we are talking about here is a maiming of both genders' sexual health by the mutilation of a man's genitals? I don't think it has to be a contest about who's got it worse, or an only-one-has-it-bad situation in order to accurately define the problem.

Just to weigh in my opinion, I think the circed men have it worst of all but _can't possibly see that because they don't have a reference to compare!!!_ We who love them and attach our lives to theirs take on their problems like our own - in every area of life - and in this case we are the ones who can feel it most and say "Hey, this is a damn big problem!"

I don't want to speak for twins10705, but my interpretation of her point was that men who are maimed - **(and are also experiencing sub-optimal sex _but don't even realize it!!!_ so don't forget we're all victims on the same side here)** - are the ones who can fix this. But because they can not acknowledge their impairment they don't.

That leaves us a bit powerless to do anything about the problem, and so it comes across feeling like, since the man thinks all is well, no action gets taken to better the couple's experience. We women become sexual martyrs to appease a man we love who won't look at his mutilation with complete honesty.

Then add common and not-altogether-frowned-upon terms like "hitting on her", "banging her", and "scoring", etc... and it starts to be a picture of women as objects of gratification on a general scale.

Now it doesn't escape me that this would be a defensive behavior and maybe a collective mourning of what men have lost. Boys who have issues with their mothers - and what boy wouldn't have an issue with mother handing him over to a knife-wielding perv - become men with issues with women. I don't see pointing fingers about who's lot is worse or casting blame is going to help define the scope of this problem.

Aksiom, if you're pretty sure what she meant, why did you ask? Were you just baiting?


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Acksiom* 
Plenty. This is post-femelitist north america, remember?

What double standard would that be?

Ha. Given your first response, I'm thinking you meant that question in a rhetorical sense merely adding exclamation to your opinion, so...here's my short response:

Until you have been on the receiving end of many a tautly stretched, mangled penis battering ram and jack hammered into a sore red mess on a daily basis for years then told by male and female alike that you should stick it out, use more lube, get some meds, maybe something wrong with you, you must not be in love etc...until you have lived *my* reality, that is, I don't expect you to understand and I don't care if you agree or not.

Unless you have some workable theory that involves a large percentage of men in this country faking their ejaculations(







), walking away from sex unfulfilled with red swollen penii, and being told that this is how things are supposed to be -- what is *your* point?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, I content that circed men do walk away from sex with widely varying degrees of unfulfillment... But that since no individual man can be aware of that (they have no other experiences to compare, and they aren't the ones with the excrutiating pain), they just don't want us to say that things are bad. Then they don't have to acknowledge - on a personal level - the atrocity of it all.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705* 
Aira --I agree with you. I probably should have clarified, by "unfulfilled" in that sense I meant simply "no orgasm".









Certainly. And also without all the pain in most cases I know of.

We are the squeaky wheels here. But grease ain't gonna fix it.

So instead some would distract with arguements about who has it worse. Like it matters... Only seeing each other with compassion will fix this. Others would tell us to just smile and not make waves. Then there are those that claim it's all just offensive and that we are bad wives putting down our poor victimized partners - just another more shaming method of saying STFU...


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira* 
We are the squeaky wheels here. But grease ain't gonna fix it.











I love it!


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## MysteryMama (Aug 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karen1968* 
I ducked into this thread a couple of days ago, and quickly ducked out again. I was so _offended_, for some reason, that women would so actively think of sleeping with another man just because their husbands were circ'd, and I felt like I should just stay out of it. But I couldn't stop thinking about it and felt like I had to come back here and post my thoughts.

Please know that I am firmly







and have been for over 10 years.

IMO, it is as much _or more_ about the *PERSON* as it is about the *PENIS*.


I haven't run in to any posts that say anyone is 'actively thinking of sleeping with another man', but I'm having a hard time figuring out why it would offend you personally that someone you have never met would think of cheating on someone else you have never met. Do you somehow see this as a crime against you? What does it have to do with you at all that you would be offended? Not trying to be an ass, just sincerely confused.

WHile I would NEVER consider having sexual relations with another man, it's kind of a big deal to me. I don't expect everyone to understand... maybe sex is not as important to you as it is to me. I like sex daily, I liked pregnant sex up until the very day I delivered, I broke the 6 week pp rule and was resuming my sex life after 3 weeks. I know that a marriage is about the person not the penis, but sex IS about the penis!

That being said, I just can't help but wonder what it would be like if DH was intact. I can't help but to be curious about what sex is like as it's intended to be. I'm sorry if that offends anyone...

I'm 25 and have been sexually active since I was 14. When I was younger, sex was sometimes painful... chafing, irritation, general soreness... but as I matured sexually and gained experience that changed for me. I would say around the time I turned 17 sex was no longer painful and became much more enjoyable. Now I orgasm on a regular basis (not ALWAYS, but most of the time) and sex is never painful, even though DH has a very tight circ and is huge. Still, I know what it's like to have unfullfilling uncomfortable sex, and I have to say after reading all these posts I worry that when I get older something will change and sex will become not so pleasureable for me, like it has for some pp's. I can only imagine how I'll feel about DH being circ'd then if I have some issues with it now and the sex is pretty good.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

TOTALLY excellent points made there, Aira & twins.

At the risk of going slightly OT again here, I just wanted to add that I have yet to hear of a _intact_ man ending up with a raw penis covered with micro-tears from masturbating (even with lube). But pretty darn common for circ'd guys.

(Yes, during phone sex at a hundred & twenty bucks an hour, guys shared their circ status, whether their penises got sore from masturbating, & heard my philosophical ruminations about genital mutilation. There was much more candor then with their therapists. Not one man was ever offended by my sincere 'I'm sorry' when they described their cut penises. Curious, yes. No one was angry. I think on some level, even the most pro-circ man can acknowledge that a wrong was done to him, when approached with empathy by someone with no personal stake in the matter. It's common sense.)

PS You guys thought it was all a bunch of grunting & "ooh, yeah, baby'







, didn't you? Yeah, the unimaginitive ones did that. Smart women got requested. There was a lot more geisha gifted-conversationalist stuff to it than you'd imagine.

PPS Do I get Brownie points for doing all this intactivism in the 80s, when it was pretty much just me, Marilyn, & Mothering?


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 

At the risk of going slightly OT again here, I just wanted to add that I have yet to hear of a _intact_ man ending up with a raw penis covered with micro-tears from masturbating (even with lube). But pretty darn common for circ'd guys.


Umm..well..I dont think my DH's windex experiment counts does it???








:


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

No ma'am, that falls in the 'foreign irritating substance applied to mucosal skin' fetish subcategory.

(Pssss, don't try the Chinese hot oil, either.)


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Acctually it was a dare and he was 16...

Same with the tiger balm experiment..









>.> He tried puppetry but for some reason it just wont work for him..


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

If you use Tiger Balm before bed, *wash your hands well before you fall asleep*. That's ALL I have to say about THAT.


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 

At the risk of going slightly OT again here, I just wanted to add that I have yet to hear of a _intact_ man ending up with a raw penis covered with micro-tears from masturbating (even with lube). But pretty darn common for circ'd guys.

(

I don't think that it is "off topic" either...I have to tell you that here DH has not just gotten the "micro-tears" -- frankly I would call them skin splits. There are actual scabs that he gets from masturbation experiences. Sigh. So sad! He even told me, in the beginning of the restoration process that just that little skin he first gained that "masturbation was no longer painful." He thought that it was supposed to be like that...a mixture of pleasure and pain. He thought that was NORMAL!









He has also told me that sex has also been painful for him on many occasions...which, honestly he NEVER TOLD ME BEFORE. When I started asking questions about it, I learned way more than I wanted to know. Sigh.

My main issues with him are that I tend to dry out eventually from the long strokes he takes (he has to jackhammer or he can't O...) and the roughness. During my last pregnant I had sex one night, woke up the next morning to use the toilet to see a huge amount of blood when I wiped. Needless to say, I was freaked out. I went in to make a special trip to see the mw, had to have an emergency u/s, etc. Just imagine the stress. The midwife then just assumed it was "rough sex" and told me to spoon and not let him do the deep strokes so he wouldn't hit the cervix







.

It's so sad to me that all of this could have been prevented...


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

My husband is circ'd too. Fortunately a previous partner of mine (from Venezuela) was intact. We were together for 5 years. It really *is* quite a different expierence. I am saddend that my husband and I were both robbed.









Knowing the difference doesn't make me feel any better, it only makes it worse in a way....I love _my husband_ and I wish he/we had been spared.







:


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
People always get prickly when sexuality is discussed candidly, & it's quadrupled when exposing the truth about circumcision.

I am not willing to shut generations of American women back up in the closet because the subject makes some uncomfortable. If it doesn't apply to you, wonderful. What are you adding to the soup, & why?

(This seems to me like some disinterested person going to the 'Surviving Abuse' forum to tell everyone there to 'just get over it'. How dismissive; how patronizing.)

Lastly, if just ONE person is saved from circumcision by reading the brutally honest accounts of what this industry, this sham, this collective societal nightmare has done to _women_; if one lurker out there is weeping in relief realizing that _it's not her_, I really don't give much of a rat's hinder if others not directly involved feel a little squicky reading about it. I'm not trying to be snarky or rude (really!), merely direct. People get squicked out seeing people nurse in public, too. Deal.









:

Absolutely! I want to give all you mamas a big








It doesn't apply to me (having never been with a circumcised man), but I think it's much better to discuss these things than to keep it all hidden. I wish that every mother who wants to circumcise her baby because of his future gfs and dw would be able to read and understand what you mamas have written here. This thread (minus a few posts...) is such a testimony to why circumcision is WRONG and really brings to light the double standards that make WOMEN feel responsible for everything that's wrong in their sex lives.

And it's NOT something that inherently cannot be helped... if it was openly talked about and not so taboo then more men would consider restoration which would help immensely. Not all would consider it, but more would and that would be a start









more







's to you all!

love and peace.


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## mika85 (Aug 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phatchristy* 
During my last pregnant I had sex one night, woke up the next morning to use the toilet to see a huge amount of blood when I wiped. Needless to say, I was freaked out. I went in to make a special trip to see the mw, had to have an emergency u/s, etc. Just imagine the stress. The midwife then just assumed it was "rough sex" and told me to spoon and not let him do the deep strokes so he wouldn't hit the cervix







.

It's so sad to me that all of this could have been prevented...

omg!!







the same exact thing happened to me!! but i started bleeding like crazy while we were doing it. and i mean, it was a HUGE amount of blood, it looked like someone had been murdered. we were soooo freaked out, and went to the hospital b/c we thought something was wrong and i'd have to have the baby that night! i had just never heard of anything like that, and i was reading preggo books from cover to cover. it just ended up being more on the embarassing side and they told him to go easy on me next time. it's sad to think that such a freakout wouldn't have happened if he didn't have to pound the hell outta me every time.







:


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## Mom2Natalya (Oct 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeannie81* 
i have pretty much always been anti circ, but everyone i have ever been with (and there have been more than a few) has been circ'd. im totally commited to my DH but im having a hard time accepting the fact that i will never experience sex with an intact man. im not going to run out and hunt down an intact man and have an affair or anything like that, but i have been lamenting this issue for a while now and i just can't seem to totally get over the... dissapointment, for lack of a better word. i have mentioned to DH how im curious about what it would be like and how much i would love for him to consider foreskin restoration, but he refuses to consider it, which doesn't surprise me at all- if it was up to him DS would be circ'd! in my mind i just KNOW it would be SO WONDERFUL. don't get me wrong, i have always enjoyed sex with DH, i just somehow know it would be even better if he was intact. sigh. anyone have any suggestions how i can just forget about it?










I have had sex with intact and cut men, about 50/50 actually. . . and there's really not much difference to be honest. You don't notice the foreskin so much because as soon as the man is erect, the foreskin naturally pulls back. There's some nice friction, but nothing that you can't get from angle and position in a cut men.
Cheer up!

Hugs!!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2Natalya* 









Cheer up!

Hugs!!

How utterly patronizing.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

What is the motivation here? The angle of all these newish posters saying it's no big deal, as though some of us have not had enough experience with an intact penis to know the difference?


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2Natalya* 








There's some nice friction, but nothing that you can't get from angle and position in a cut men.
Cheer up!

Hugs!!

Hm...since when is *lack* of friction the problem here?









I've had enough "friction" for two lifetimes..thanks!


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Yeah, I wondered about that too. Not really a firm grasp of the problem, wot?


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## oneKnight (Aug 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
What is the motivation here? The angle of all these newish posters saying it's no big deal, as though some of us have not had enough experience with an intact penis to know the difference?

The intent was probably for those of us who haven't known an intact man to not be so much jelous. I doubt the pp actually wanted to say that those of us with problems should just get over it. I didn't read a "you don't have any problems" attitude, it was more of a "you're not missing THAT much so don't fret about it" attitude.
Perhaps she would like to come back and explain it for us?


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

>.>

Some days I wanna rent my DH out for $50 a shot...

Any takers? I trained him myself....


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114* 
>.>

Some days I wanna rent my DH out for $50 a shot...

Any takers? I trained him myself....

Pandora?


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

>.>

Well I *AM* Gonna be giving birth in December..there *Will* be that 6wk + Period of abstinence..

I'm willing to share! 'twill be the season after all..

>.>


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

FWIW, why do so many men and women assume that what they experience is the *only variation or norm that is out there*?? I mean Brandi-- maybe you are just lucky because your body is very accomodating or whatever??

And this is not only experience, but how their body is formed/shaped/ or in the case of circ. altered. And of course, why do so many of doctors assume this. too. And for doctors I can add, why do they assume that every birth, episiotomy or other surgery has a 'standard' recovery, etc?

Some of this we just don't talk about. But I for one was glad that I discovered I wasn't the only person that took 6 months rather than 6 weeks to recover from birth-- and saddened to learn that it was much more common than anyone lets on? That most of us figured we were 'abnormal' before finally seeking a doctor or confessing to friends/partners/mothers/ or searching the web for answers.

And sex is no different. I don't have any idea what other people experience and barely understand my own sex life to feel like I could make a blanket statement about sex. I mean, there are several things that I _could_ try to "blame" it on my dh's circ, but the truth is they could easily be related to other things and I"m left to muddle through it all and figure out what to do about it.

And doctors are not much help about that, imo.

Jessica (with the non-normal but perfectly normal for the most part body I think)


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Pandora, how uhmm, generous.








Wonder if he thinks that's a fair value?

Jessica

(Felt like this needed to be a part from my prev ranting)


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

He'll be happy if the proceeds of his endevours go towards a Nintendo Wii, an Xbox 360 and various games to go along with...

Will pimp my husband for video games....


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## MysteryMama (Aug 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2Natalya* 








I have had sex with intact and cut men, about 50/50 actually. . . and there's really not much difference to be honest.

too bad i can't make that judgement for myself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2Natalya* 
Cheer up!

Hugs!!

while im sure you had only the best intentions with this, i have to agree with A&A that its patronizing.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Wow. Just wow.

Friction? Really?? Is that what I'm missing out on?


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

You just need to find a different _angle_, my dear. To increase the friction. Because that's what raw, swollen, bleeding vaginas require- more friction.

Sigh.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
You just need to find a different _angle_, my dear. To increase the friction. Because that's what raw, swollen, bleeding vaginas require- more friction.

Sigh.

So I'm confused. Is more lube the answer? Or is it friction?









I'm sure if I just cheer up.....


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2Natalya* 








I have had sex with intact and cut men, about 50/50 actually. . . and there's really not much difference to be honest. You don't notice the foreskin so much because as soon as the man is erect, the foreskin naturally pulls back. There's some nice friction, but nothing that you can't get from angle and position in a cut men.
Cheer up!

Hugs!!


That's really rude. There are alot of women on here that have endured alot of suffering because of this issue, and to chalk it up to needing a change of angle or position IS patronizing. I agree.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

She responded to the OP, and judging by her glib and flippant answer, *clearly* hadn't read the thread before she posted. I hope she does, since this thread contains so much incredible information and so many raw emotions. I'm sure she'll learn much from it.

It's been a while since we had one of these threads. I always get a lot out of them... even though I can't seem to post my own feelings and experiences on the subject. But mine are similar to what others have said.







:

Pandora- Pics???? Who's going to rent him sight unseen?









Tigertail- what an interesting former profession! I mean that sincerely.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

OT: If it's severely vertically challenged, unestablished, out of place, mean, ugly, patronizing or otherwise baiting: *Don't feed it, report it.*

Jen


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Also OT/ but how can you see which post someone resonds to? Can you see that? Sometimes that would be nice to have a:
I'm repling to someone
I'm replying to all or
I'm just commenting on the thread option (and maybe there would be more, but 3 is a good number).

When I see that it is a long thread and I am replying to OP w/o reading through, I usually try to state that in my post so that it is clearer.

Jessica


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

True dat, Jen, but I tend to think people are on the up-and-up and just really really uninformed when something like this appears. They pop in and think they're helping, because they haven't taken _5 minutes_ to lurk and read and _understand_ the forum. I don't have an itchy trigger finger with the *!* button (maybe it _should_ be itchier...)


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1* 
Also OT/ but how can you see which post someone resonds to? Can you see that? Jessica

No, I don't think there is an option for that at all. It would be nice! But in this case, she had quoted the OP in her reply.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I also usually state clearly if I am replying to an OP without having read the thread, if I'm replying to something at a certain post number without having read further, or if I am replying after just skimming.

I do that because of situations like this. There can be a whole lot happen in a thread after the OP, and whatever I say can be grossly misconstrued unless I clarify up front that I'm not party to the happenings...

I really hope that this is the case with the most recent flippant comment. Unfortunately, the previous ones stated that they had read and considered this thread for a while before posting.







:


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## cfiddlinmama (May 9, 2006)

Ok, I just want to say thank you so much for this thread. You have helped me understand so much about my own sexual relationship. My dh is circed. We have only been with each other. I have often faked, and wished, prayed, hoped, and hurried for it to be over. I would never in a million years want to hurt my dh so I have kept most of it from him. During pg I can't stand sex. It hurts so badly. I am swollen and sore for hours or even days afterwards. My dh is a very loving man and isn't in it for his own gratification, just for mine. I thought it was all my fault I "didn't like sex better." I thought it was my body letting me down when I had uncomfortable or painful sex. We have been married 7 years. We've gained a lot of experience and knowledge of each other. I am usually able to avoid some of the trauma, but it still happens. I usually have to be pretty buzzed to have amazing sex. (I must be relaxed enough or something.) How sad is that? I'm only 22 and I'm so scared about what sex will be in 10 years. I've mentioned restoration briefly before. Thank you for giving me the motivation to really pursue this. I hope my dss' wives thank me some day for sparing them this!







Hugs to all you (us) suffering women out there. I hope that it gets better for you someday.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:

Pandora- Pics???? Who's going to rent him sight unseen?
Of what, I'm not posting pics of my hubby's bits


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)




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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cfiddlinmama* 
Ok, I just want to say thank you so much for this thread. You have helped me understand so much about my own sexual relationship. My dh is circed. We have only been with each other. I have often faked, and wished, prayed, hoped, and hurried for it to be over. I would never in a million years want to hurt my dh so I have kept most of it from him. During pg I can't stand sex. It hurts so badly. I am swollen and sore for hours or even days afterwards. My dh is a very loving man and isn't in it for his own gratification, just for mine. I thought it was all my fault I "didn't like sex better." I thought it was my body letting me down when I had uncomfortable or painful sex. We have been married 7 years. We've gained a lot of experience and knowledge of each other. I am usually able to avoid some of the trauma, but it still happens. I usually have to be pretty buzzed to have amazing sex. (I must be relaxed enough or something.) How sad is that? I'm only 22 and I'm so scared about what sex will be in 10 years. I've mentioned restoration briefly before. Thank you for giving me the motivation to really pursue this. I hope my dss' wives thank me some day for sparing them this!







Hugs to all you (us) suffering women out there. I hope that it gets better for you someday.


You've been married since you were 15?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114* 
Of what, I'm not posting pics of my hubby's bits









_*Rent*_ them but don't _*post*_ them? How screwed up is that?


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
_*Rent*_ them but don't _*post*_ them? How screwed up is that?









It's against the UA anyway (to post em.)

hehehe


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## MysteryMama (Aug 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
You've been married since you were 15?









hey it happens. i was forced in to marriage at the age of 17, and went through a divorce as a result. i was so naive then... when i think about it, im surprised i didn't circ my first DS. thank God i had an anti-circ ob/gyn who educated me on circ.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeannie81* 
hey it happens.


Yeah, I know it happens, but it still always surprises me. And I was checking to make sure I did the math right!


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## MysteryMama (Aug 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Yeah, I know it happens, but it still always surprises me. And I was checking to make sure I did the math right!

it always surprises me too and it happend to me!


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## cfiddlinmama (May 9, 2006)

Ok, I did some rounding! I got married at 16 and we're almost married for 7 years. (We've been active together for 7.) Yeah, I'm young, but I'm glad I got married. I knew what I wanted and I've always been way mature for my age. (Chock that up to being born at home and breastfed ok!) And I'm a great mom even though (or because) I'm young so there!


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture* 
OT: If it's severely vertically challenged, unestablished, out of place, mean, ugly, patronizing or otherwise baiting: *Don't feed it, report it.*

Jen

Yes! Karen is loving her new bundle of joy at the moment, and her babymoon will be kept as wonderful as possible if we hit the ! button instead of responding to questionable posts. As tempting as it is







we should just ignore it.


----------

