# CIO Friend



## MyZymurgy (Mar 6, 2007)

I was talking to my long-time friend today and she asked how sleeping was going. I was honest and said he isn't sleeping through the night - he wakes every hour sometimes to nurse or be comforted. I often spend a good part of the night in the rocking chair, parts of the night co-sleeping in bed, and parts of the night with him in the crib next to the bed (this last part doesn't last too long, though! LOL!) DS is 8 months old.

She said "that sounds like a nightmare."
I said "I'm tired, but the baby is happy and I am functioning just fine. So no biggie. He'll sleep through the night when he is good and ready."
She said "Have you ever just through about letting him cry in the crib alone?"
I was a bit shocked to hear this. I didn't think she was a CIO mom... I said "No, DH and I just aren't comfortable with that."
Her: "Really?"
*awkward pause*
Her: "You know, he has to learn to sleep on his own."
Me: "He will, when he's ready."
Her: "You're going to end up with a spoiled brat on your hands."
Me: *stunned silence*






















Her: "You should just let him cry in the crib by himself. He'll be fine. He's gotta learn."
Me: "Nice weather we've been having lately."

Seriously. I was so surprised, I had no comebacks. I should have told her that he wouldn't learn anything by CIO, other than the fact that he is being ignored. And I don't care if doesn't learn to sleep through the night until he is 2 or 3 or older. He's just not big on sleep. (For example, he didn't nap at all yesterday!







That's just him! Always has been. ) And the spoiled brat thing? Geesh. This from the woman who from ages 2-4 said her kid was a "whiny clinging nightmare". Poor kid. Now I have a new perspective on why he might have turned out so "whiny".









I'm mostly still just surprised. I never ever pegged her as a CIO parent. I guess you just never can tell... I guess I probably won't be mentioning any sleep issues with her in the future.

Just had to vent. I didn't know where else to vent this little story. Thanks.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Us non-CIO'ers are definitley in the minority.









Your nights sound like mine.. at least we aren't alone!


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## sarahope (Feb 5, 2009)

ugh, I hate how many times I've had this conversation. No advice, just sympathy. I end up repeating myself over and over "I'm not comfortable with letting them cry it out." Very frustrating.


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## MyZymurgy (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
Us non-CIO'ers are definitley in the minority.









See... I was honestly under the impression that CIO wasn't really done much anymore. I thought we were in the majority by not CIO!


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyZymurgy* 
See... I was honestly under the impression that CIO wasn't really done much anymore. I thought we were in the majority by not CIO!

I know less than a handful of people who don't/wouldn't CIO. And I know a LOT of people who would/do. In all different circles and types of people.









I have had that convo many many times as well... it is very sad.

Just a few weeks ago in our church small group the convo went something like this-

Older couple with grown kids- "i remember when my kids were small. i changed them, fed them, and they would cry when i put them in their crib. they were manipulating me to come get them. it was so sad to hear them cry. one even cried for 30 minutes before being so exhausted she fell asleep."
younger couple with 14 mo- "yeah, it was so sad when we had to do it too. you hate to hear them cry, but you have to do it. it's the only way that they will learn to sleep."

I should've said something, but I just got up and took DS in the other room to nurse him. I couldn't listen anymore.


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
I know less than a handful of people who don't/wouldn't CIO. And I know a LOT of people who would/do. In all different circles and types of people.









I have had that convo many many times as well... it is very sad.

Just a few weeks ago in our church small group the convo went something like this-

Older couple with grown kids- "i remember when my kids were small. i changed them, fed them, and they would cry when i put them in their crib. they were manipulating me to come get them. it was so sad to hear them cry. one even cried for 30 minutes before being so exhausted she fell asleep."
younger couple with 14 mo- *"yeah, it was so sad when we had to do it too. you hate to hear them cry, but you have to do it. it's the only way that they will learn to sleep."*

I should've said something, but I just got up and took DS in the other room to nurse him. I couldn't listen anymore.

that actually made me cringe









I usually reply with something like "oh, we like to love on [baby] until she drifts off on her own" or "why would we do something like _that_?"


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## MyZymurgy (Mar 6, 2007)

I guess I sometimes live in a bubble. It honestly never occurred to me, or even crossed my mind, to let him CIO. The first time I heard of it was when he was 4 mo and my mom asked if we wanted to try it. I was horrified - and said "I don't think people do that anymore." I thought she was just being old-timey. I thought Dr. Sears was generally accepted as laying out the latest and greatest in parenting. And... again, it just never occurred to me that I would leave my baby crying and alone. It just doesn't make sense to me on any level.

This friend just took my by surprise. I've known her since we were 8! But as I have been thinking about it more, I guess if any parent were to CIO, I could see her maybe doing it... she isn't too patient. And she did sound surprised to learn that I was "still" nursing. (He's 8 1/2 mo. I'm hardly breaking any records here.)

Her kid is grown now 5, so there is no point in convincing her that CIO isn't the best thing in the world. She doesn't want any more kids either. I'll just know to not discuss sleep issues with her - or she'll tell me I'm spoiling my (again EIGHT MONTH old) baby.


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## Unconventional1 (Apr 3, 2006)

I repeatedly hear about my parent using CIO with me at a few months old. I can't convince my dad to quit telling that horrid story. Yay- they let my scream for three nights straight (8 pm until 3 or 4 am) before I finally gave up. My DHs parents asked us if DS was STTN at 2 months old, but I asked them why should he? He is supposed to nurse every few hours so.... they left it at that (they are very pro formula too).

I get angry every time my dad says something about CIO though- I could never do that to my LO! I feel bad if I don't hear them waking in time to get them before they are fussy!


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyZymurgy* 
See... I was honestly under the impression that CIO wasn't really done much anymore. I thought we were in the majority by not CIO!

Ah, but that's the thing. Many parents don't think that sleep training = CIO. I personally do.

So, if you swap out the CIO with sleep training, and I think you'd find that the number of parents who "sleep train" increases substantially.

ETA: To the OP, I have a friend who is like that. It hurts my head but mostly, I just smile, give the trite, "We don't believe in that or practice it", but she still says stuff like your friend does. Ironically, her kid really is more of a brat then mine is, so I just smile and ask her how her son is doing with hitting other children. Mean, maybe, but I think it gets the point across.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
Ah, but that's the thing. Many parents don't think that sleep training = CIO. I personally do.

So, if you swap out the CIO with sleep training, and I think you'd find that the number of parents who "sleep train" increases substantially.

I think you are right on this point. Most parents won't come out and say "we made him/her CIO.." but they will put baby in crib, let them cry for 5 minutes, run in and pat them and tell them 'its ok' (NO ITS NOT!!!







) and then go back again after 10 minutes 'its ok' etc. etc. etc... until baby is asleep.... but no, that's not CIO...







: (note the sarcism)


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

I don't know if people can just tell it's not a topic they want to bring up with me, but no one's ever suggested I let my DD CIO. If they did I would say I didn't think permanent neurological and emotional damage was something I wanted to do for my child. Then I'd ask them if they had stock in a pharmaceutical company since they are the ones that benefit from the stress related adult diseases that CIO causes. I'd follow up with offering to send them research if they wanted it.

The only person who ever told my that my DD shouldn't sleep with me was a pediatrician we only saw once. Our current one is very respectful of LO's as people.


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## Harmony08 (Feb 4, 2009)

The time or two I have been in one of these conversations I say "Oh no. That isn't something I would ever do" if pressed I then say "I have done my research and made my choices". If pressed more..."From what I learned from my research I can confidently say that I would never do that to my child". If somebody wants to bring up Weisbluth I say.."I'm not comfortable taking psychological advice from medical doctors". Inevitably you get the "aren't you worried he won't learn to sleep by himself/sooth himself etc?" To that you can say "No I'm not worried but I would be if I let him cry it out". If somebody then seems unsure of themself or asks me for details I offer to send them some links.


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Harmony08* 
The time or two I have been in one of these conversations I say "Oh no. That isn't something I would ever do" if pressed I then say "I have done my research and made my choices". If pressed more..."From what I learned from my research I can confidently say that I would never do that to my child". If somebody wants to bring up Weisbluth I say.."I'm not comfortable taking psychological advice from medical doctors". Inevitably you get the "aren't you worried he won't learn to sleep by himself/sooth himself etc?" To that you can say "No I'm not worried but I would be if I let him cry it out". If somebody then seems unsure of themself or asks me for details I offer to send them some links.

this. exactly.

im always so shocked about people that get so pushy about it.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

if people suggest it to me i say thats not something we are interested in. if pushed i tell them that almost all reliable research recommends against CIO. i try very hard to stay a long those lines but if they push me to far and wont stop singing the praises of CIO they might be unfortunate enough to get my actual opinion. that babies do not have wants only needs and that they are entirely dependent on their parents to fulfill those needs. CIO/sleep training is a socially acceptable excuse to do one of the most selfish things a person can do and abandon your baby alone in the dark and ignore him while he cries for someone to be with him. then because you are already being selfish you blame it on the baby because he is manipulating you and needs to learn to sleep. it is crual, damaging, and total crap. you leave the baby to cry because you think being a parent is a day job, you break your childs heart and his trust in you who is his whole world all so you can eat dinner and watch Lost in peace. i may not be getting much sleep but at least i put my childs needs before primetime.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

"You're going to end up with a spoiled brat on your hands."
Wow. That's just rude.

Generally, I let people talk and just tell them that it's not for us, that really, I couldn't do it. Eventually I learned not to complain about her sleep habits and to answer, "Just great" when anyone asked how her sleep was going.

I've read ALL the books, all of them, I have a whole huge box of books on babies and sleep in my storage building and it's labled "Useless Cr&p." For the most part, if anyone tries to cite "experts," I've read the book. For instance, I have a friend who kept pusing Dr. Weisbluth so I finally said, "Oh yeah, isn't he the guy who said that if the child throws up, don't clean them up, just leave it and clean it up ONCE THEY FALL ASLEEP - yeah, I'm just not comfortable with that and I really have to question the credibility of an 'expert' who could suggest such a thing."

I'm not a crusader against CIO. I don't get why some people turn to various forms of CIO without trying anything else, but I know what desperate looks like and I have been seriously sleep depreived. I know what it's like to grasp at any straws. I get it. And for the most part, while I don't love it, I am not going to get in anyone's face over how they get their kids to sleep. I will suggest other books, encourage them to follow their instincts and not cave to some "expert" if they don't feel good about it. I take the "empower yourself, listen to your gut!" route. However, once someone starts calling my child a spoiled brat, we are going to have words and I promise, I am not going to be the one going home with my feelings hurt.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
However, once someone starts calling my child a spoiled brat, we are going to have words and I promise, I am not going to be the one going home with my feelings hurt.

this is what i dont get. first of all i dont generally ask about peoples sleep habits partly b/c its a weird question and partly because i really dont want to know if they use CIO. second of all i dont run around telling people who disagree with my parenting that their kids are going to be evil beasts.

so why is it that when i have said i just dont have any interest in CIO for the 5th time in a conversation that person feels the need to tell me that if i dont do it my kid will be a brat (and they have medical proof thank you healthy sleep habits) or that dp will leave me because i am being a terrible g/f not to mention screwing up our kid? b/c see thats falls under direct provocation in my book and earns them the right to hear my actual opinion. and then they think they have the right to be offended. heck i try really hard not to get into it with people but when they tell me there is no other way for my kid to not be a monster i get a bit irritated.


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## Agatha_Ann (Apr 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
if people suggest it to me i say thats not something we are interested in. if pushed i tell them that almost all reliable research recommends against CIO. i try very hard to stay a long those lines but if they push me to far and wont stop singing the praises of CIO they might be unfortunate enough to get my actual opinion. that babies do not have wants only needs and that they are entirely dependent on their parents to fulfill those needs. CIO/sleep training is a socially acceptable excuse to do one of the most selfish things a person can do and abandon your baby alone in the dark and ignore him while he cries for someone to be with him. then because you are already being selfish you blame it on the baby because he is manipulating you and needs to learn to sleep. it is crual, damaging, and total crap. you leave the baby to cry because you think being a parent is a day job, you break your childs heart and his trust in you who is his whole world all so you can eat dinner and watch Lost in peace. i may not be getting much sleep but at least i put my childs needs before primetime.


















This got me all choked up


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Since all my schooling is in early childhood development i always bring up how EVERY SINGLE ONE of my textbooks talks about how damaging CIO is and how babies learn trust vs mistrust, early bonding etc.

I had a prof be so surprised it is legal - she was sure it would be considered neglect since it falls underneath the definition of neglect.

I also tell them that if i am crying dh tries to comfort me. AND that if i was taking care of my grandma and i locked her in a room alone all night to cry it is considered elder abuse.


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## paulamc (Jun 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale* 
Since all my schooling is in early childhood development i always bring up how EVERY SINGLE ONE of my textbooks talks about how damaging CIO is and how babies learn trust vs mistrust, early bonding etc.

A little off topic, but are there any of these textbooks you would recommend?


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paulamc* 
A little off topic, but are there any of these textbooks you would recommend?

It is hard to remember since I have taken so many classes but these were 2 of my favorites i think.

http://product.half.ebay.com/The-You...23698QQtgZinfo

Since this specific one is an "actual textbook" it seemed to get more weight and credibility.
Really anything by Janet Gonzalez-Mena is great though. I have used her books in more then one class and really liked them.

The second was this one

http://www.amazon.com/Our-Babies-Our.../dp/0385483627


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## yogafeet (Jul 3, 2007)

:


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## RubyOrganique (Aug 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unconventional1* 
I get angry every time my dad says something about CIO though- I could never do that to my LO! I feel bad if I don't hear them waking in time to get them before they are fussy!

My dad brought it up the other day when I said we were getting pretty sleep deprived. "What would happen if you just didn't go to her?" Really? Really? I told him that I was the one that couldn't handle it. Truly, even when DH is handling her needs at night and she cries a bit while he takes her to the potty and rocks her, her crying is hard to hear. I know my dad thinks CIO is best, but he's from another generation. I also told him that I can't risk the fissure of trust that will develop if I just let her scream.

Is it such a leap for people to make that a baby's cry is one of few modes of communication and that perhaps there is something they need at that moment?

Who stated that a baby is supposed to sleep in the same rhythm as adults? We expect that they will nap a bunch during the day as well. If I napped 2 hours during the day I sure as heck wouldn't sleep through the night.

But this issue is hugely complicated by the very real effects of sleep deprivation. So while I disagree with the CIOers, I understand how people get seduced into believing in it.

I look at this as my first experience with having a very different parenting approach than others. I choose to learn the best way (socially) to respectfully manage interactions when parenting comes up. And, as with all my choices in life from leaving home to pursue a career to our home birth, I'm going to do what is best for my family and me regardless of what others do/think.


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## MyZymurgy (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
if people suggest it to me i say thats not something we are interested in. if pushed i tell them that almost all reliable research recommends against CIO. i try very hard to stay a long those lines but if they push me to far and wont stop singing the praises of CIO they might be unfortunate enough to get my actual opinion. that babies do not have wants only needs and that they are entirely dependent on their parents to fulfill those needs. CIO/sleep training is a socially acceptable excuse to do one of the most selfish things a person can do and abandon your baby alone in the dark and ignore him while he cries for someone to be with him. then because you are already being selfish you blame it on the baby because he is manipulating you and needs to learn to sleep. it is crual, damaging, and total crap. you leave the baby to cry because you think being a parent is a day job, you break your childs heart and his trust in you who is his whole world all so you can eat dinner and watch Lost in peace. i may not be getting much sleep but at least i put my childs needs before primetime.


Yes yes yes!!! I totally agree.









Does anyone have any stats on how popular the CIO method really is. I'm just feeling horrified for humanity.

As I was thinking about it last night, I remembered seeing (accidently) about 3 minutes of an episode of a 'sit-com' show. I think it was called Reba?? Anyway, it was this DH accusing his MIL of being "cruel!" for letting their children CIO and for suggesting that they do the same. The tone was extremely condescending... like the DH was so naive and 'too soft' for parenthood. It was unfunny and annoying (and sort of offensive) so I turned off the TV and hoped I never ran into that show again. I didn't see enough of the episode or the show to say if it was really pro-CIO or not, but from that 3 minutes I saw, I would guess that it was pro-CIO. (This may be unfair of me to conclude... if so, sorry Reba.)

But this is the attitude I have sensed from from friend - that I am naive and being ridiculous and not tough enough.


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## RubyOrganique (Aug 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
If they did I would say I didn't think permanent neurological and emotional damage was something I wanted to do for my child. Then I'd ask them if they had stock in a pharmaceutical company since they are the ones that benefit from the stress related adult diseases that CIO causes. I'd follow up with offering to send them research if they wanted it.

yeah, that.


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

OP, I think you handled the situation just right.

There are some issues about which people are just going to be on opposite sides and not agree at all, and this is one of them.


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## flower01 (Aug 1, 2007)

It's tough when you have to handle those kinds of situations...My experience is that CIO is definitely the standard. I'm pretty sure all of my friends did it. I almost cried when my best friend told me she let her 4 month old CIO for 45 minutes! It still hurts me when I think about.

I think one thing good is that more natural, AP minded doctors are starting to speak out. In this month's issue of FitPregnancy, Dr. Jay Gordon came right out and said he does not think CIO is a good method and that parents should quickly respond to their babies cries. I was happy to see that.


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## Funny Face (Dec 7, 2006)

I have a baby right now so I'm being re-exposed to all the ignorance. I want to cry every time I hear about how _they_ did sleep training, CIO and it was _really_ hard but by the 4th night she _finally_ gave up and went to sleep and has slept _great_ ever since.

Don't get me started on all the other neglectful things our society has cultivated and tried to pass off as necessary in raising a healthy, unspoiled







:, child.

My hot button right now.


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## kalamos23 (Apr 11, 2008)

DH's parents did CIO with DH - they said they just put earplugs in every night because he wouldn't give up. Knowing him now, I don't doubt this a bit - but seeing how it is a struggle for him to trust people and how he is so easily stressed makes me wonder how much is due to the CIO, you know?


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## moonmom08 (Feb 22, 2009)

Emerging from usual lurkdom to say...
I think CIO folks are so pushy to non-CIOers because they want/need to validate themselves. In fact, I'd go so far as to add that the more traumatic the experience was for them, the more they need to think that they did the "right" thing for the "right" or "best" reasons. And that actually makes me feel very sad for those moms.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

OP did the right thing--this is something you just can't "talk out." When my mom raised the CIO issue, I just explained that I can't let my baby cry without me. So if she's going to cry, I'm going to hold her. And God willing I'll be able to do the same thing when she's 14 and when she's 40.


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## Kappa (Oct 15, 2007)

I just had a convo with close friend I am kind of upset about it. Before she had her baby, I told her about a mutual friend who did CIO, and told her that I wasn't doing it. Her first impression was it was cruel/mean, and she had cared for and ex's infant before and she always got up with him well past age 2. Fast forward, she had her baby, she chose to exclusively-pump for reasons that I thought were rather shallow even though her baby latched on fine, and she is dead tired getting up comfort baby, pump, feed baby etc. She says now that she doesn't think CIO is a bad idea and she sees why people do it. The baby isn't even 2 months







, at least she cosleeps to get some rest. She never totally got it when I explained to her that nursing the baby helps Mom go back to sleep, and that EP isn't some holy grail of compromises, it's great if Mom does it because baby cannot latch but it is otherwise double work. I think she will sleep train her baby as soon as he's old enough, another one bites the dust.


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## MyZymurgy (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *justKate* 
So if she's going to cry, I'm going to hold her. And God willing I'll be able to do the same thing when she's 14 and when she's 40.

Love that!!!


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## MyZymurgy (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kappa* 
I just had a convo with close friend I am kind of upset about it. Before she had her baby, I told her about a mutual friend who did CIO, and told her that I wasn't doing it. Her first impression was it was cruel/mean, and she had cared for and ex's infant before and she always got up with him well past age 2. Fast forward, she had her baby, she chose to exclusively-pump for reasons that I thought were rather shallow even though her baby latched on fine, and she is dead tired getting up comfort baby, pump, feed baby etc. She says now that she doesn't think CIO is a bad idea and she sees why people do it. The baby isn't even 2 months







, at least she cosleeps to get some rest. She never totally got it when I explained to her that nursing the baby helps Mom go back to sleep, and that EP isn't some holy grail of compromises, it's great if Mom does it because baby cannot latch but it is otherwise double work. I think she will sleep train her baby as soon as he's old enough, another one bites the dust.

That is a sad story... I try so hard to not judge the parenting decisions of others, because I know that I can never fully understand what a parent is going through to arrive at certain decisions.

For me - I thought CIO was cruel before I had kids but thought "I guess I could see how someone might reach that point" (but I still didn't agree with it.) But now that I have a baby, it has become just _completely_ unfathomable (in my mind) how someone can CIO. It goes against all my mom-instincts. Just the thought of it breaks my heart. So I am surprised that someone who thought it was bad before kids actually is taking the opposite view now that she has a baby. I guess it is just weird to think that something you think is mommy-instincts isn't universal.

Well... I may not be making sense. I'm going on 3 hours sleep.







(But baby is happy... and so am I!!)


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## Kappa (Oct 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyZymurgy* 
That is a sad story... I try so hard to not judge the parenting decisions of others, because I know that I can never fully understand what a parent is going through to arrive at certain decisions.

For me - I thought CIO was cruel before I had kids but thought "I guess I could see how someone might reach that point" (but I still didn't agree with it.) But now that I have a baby, it has become just _completely_ unfathomable (in my mind) how someone can CIO. It goes against all my mom-instincts. Just the thought of it breaks my heart. So I am surprised that someone who thought it was bad before kids actually is taking the opposite view now that she has a baby. I guess it is just weird to think that something you think is *mommy-instincts isn't universal.*

Well... I may not be making sense. I'm going on 3 hours sleep.







(But baby is happy... and so am I!!)

I'm hoping she had a bad moment and that when the time comes she'll pass on the CIO thing. Among other things, she had a birth out of the Birth Horror story chronicles, the ultimate in cruelty/inhumane practices, the C-section with an incomplete anesthesia. She was also taking 18 hours of classes, and tried to go back to class immediately, and passed on nursing the babe, so I think there may be some pretty major attachment issues there.


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