# Killing Frogs



## OnTheFence

I may regret posting this question but here goes.

In all my years of caring for children, I've never heard of a girl doing this, but have come across plenty of little boys doing this kind of thing. Its not something I approve of, OR want my child doing, however it has happened three times!!
I am beyond livid.
I've always taught my children to respect animals, etc. We've talked about how frogs and birds, and even the smaller creatures work for us in small ways, etc and that its wrong to hurt or mame them. So the first time it happened, we talked to him about what he had done, tried our best to express to him that this was wrong, and that the frog was a living thing, etc. He cried and I didn't think it would happen again. This was maybe a year ago right before he turned 4. A few months ago, he smashed a frog after eyeing it for awhile. I didn't think he would kill it, nor did Jeff, he had just been watching it, but then out of no where smashed it. This time my husband handled the situation, sternly, we talked to him about it again, and then we wouldn't let him play outside anymore and sent him to his room.
Now today it happens again. This was a giant toad, and he took a Tonka truck and ran over it several times. "To flatten it like a pancake". My daughter tried to save it from being tortured, but not before it met an untimely death. I am so upset! What possessed him to do such a thing? So I am outside (he is in his room, while I cool off) and I am talking to DH about this and I say "Did you do this kind of s**t?" and he just looked at me like he wasnt going to answer. I said "Tell me now if you and your brothers did this kind of thing?" And he admitted that yes they did, and that is must be a "boy thing". Now I know other boys in the neighborhood have done this thing, but their parents dont seem nearly as appalled or upset by it, just treat it like its nothing "its not like its a cat or anything". Oy.
So am I just over reacting? And what can I do to get it through his head that we don't kill frogs just to see what will happen to them.


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## Kathryn

Geez. I don't know. I don't know how I will handle myself if that happens. I go beserk on anybody if they kill something.







I'm sorry I don't have the answer for you.


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## captain crunchy

Wow...that must be hard for you to be dealing with.

I will say, that to me, that would be a H U G E problem. It has been proven that the torturing and killing of animals...any animals...is a marker for more serious issues.

I am in no way suggesting your child is going to be some psycho or something, but I would really caution not to think, or let anyone convince you that this is a "boys will be boys" thing.

In my opinion it is something that should be considered a serious situation and should be dealt with as such...

I am sorry I can't offer any easy answers...and again, I am not here to judge you or your son... I just feel that if this were to occur in my family, it would be a very serious issue...

Please take care and I hope you figure things out.

ETA: I just asked my husband about this, and he did NOT do things like this as a child...so not all boys do this.


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## matts_mamamama

I just asked dh about this - he and his cousin were pretty much terrors and now that I'm having another son, these things concern me (apple doesn't fall far from the tree thing, ya know?) Unfortunately, dh has no answer for me (or you) about how to deal with this and make them understand that it's not right. I am wondering where the line is...bugs and worms to frogs to what? It's very confusing too little kids, but very confusing to me as a mama too! I want to teach respect for all living things, but there must be some genetic code that requires little boys to test the laws of nature and such. <shrug> I wish I had an answer, but I sure hope someone does so I can file it for future use!


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## edamommy

UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.... no you're not over reacting!?! If my ds EVER so much as kicks dirt towards a frog he'll not see the light of day for weeks!

How old is your child?

MY father has two brothers. They were brought up here on this island and were tough kids. They are meat eaters. I just phoned each of them (well, my dad is right here... but the other two) and they never killed a frog, or shot a squirrel, or the likes. I knew one kid who used to kill/mame frogs in our playground and remember it clearly. He's now in jail for like the millionth time (not for killing frogs- unfortunatly there's no jail time for that. lol.).

Anyway, nip it in the bud. Take him to a counselor or something! YIKES!

Of course, if you've eaten frog legs ... then just have him save the legs for you! :LOL

**I was really not being sarcastic... it's just a vegetarians' attempt at remaining pc during this thread.







:


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## mamalisa

My dh spent a lot of time on a river growing up and I had to make him stop telling me stories of the things they did to critters. He's grown into a perfecty normal (well...







) kind and gentle man. I wish I had some advice or something wise to say but my ds was picking up ants yesterday and eating them so I'm really no help at all.


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## mamawanabe

My dh never hurt animals for entertainment, and he grew up in a farming family that hunted and thought of animals as "useful;" he couldn't help his cousin kill their meat rabbits either and he never had a desire to join his dad on hunting trips (and never did). He may have fished once or twice, but wasn't into it.

That said, I do remember my otherwise very kind, sensitive brother running over ants with his tricycle when he was 5 or so. I told my mom and she made him stop. But then my dad, while never agreeing to that kind of senseless killing, did do things with my brother like feeding catapillers to spiders. (umm, I just remembered smashing a firefly with my hands once and my dad telling me about his firefly children who would wait all night for their dad who would never came home - not a pleasant lesson, but it took)

The messages ARE confusing.

But this isn't really about boys vs girls, it is about empathy (something girls develop earlier than boys most likely because they are bombarded with social modles of empathetic girls/women - we can do our best, but we can't artificially provide boys with the sheer volume of those models).

I would be worried. Not freaking out, but worried. If it was bugs he was killing, less so (the empathy needed to identify with a bug's pain is more abstract since they don't look like people). Maybe he just isn't ready to make that metal connection yet, even with a cute toad/frog? I don't know what you can do to help him begin making thsoe connections, but I agree it is unacceptable. Maybe have your husband model sweet behavior to frogs and bugs outside. Have your husband coo at a sweet frog and talk about the frog's family/children etc.


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## Tigerchild

It's NOT a "boy question" (unless we are only talking about frilly girls here).

As a daycare provider, I had spider and beetle stompers of both genders (would've had lizard stompers but they're too fast), and as someone who has a lot of country cousins, there were plenty of times when some of the girls got overexcited and a little animal got hurt (after all, these are the same kiddos that saw mama scream bloody murder if a snake got into the house, ect, so...).

I will grant you that most girls are socialized to fear toads, snakes, et al. So probably more boys than girls will approach them. But I would say that with a kid who is intensely curious (or has been taught to regard little creepy crawlies as something to be dealt with with lethal force) and who has not developed that much cross-species empathy, that is a concern.

Please do not shove this off on boys, because A) it's not appropriate, and B) you also feed into harmful stereotypes about girls-- and when a girl does the same thing she is penalized even worse than all the horrible things that are thought of when boys do it because it is seen as "unnatural". It's very natural for humans to want to (or unintentionally) exert control and force over creatures that can't fight back.

Anyway, how to deal with it--you must make clear in no uncertain terms that this is unacceptable to you. I would say it's also appropriate to show your sorrow that a defenseless creature was killed (I cried when one of the kids I was nannying got hold of a baby garter snake, and threw it on the ground, killing it--they never did anything like that again). Until your son learns more empathy, you are going to have to shadow him, and take more direct action to save or prevent harm to the other creature. You can also explain to him that animals, even toads, have a life and can feel sad just like people do, and that it isn't okay to hurt animals. You can try to show him more appropriate ways to channel his aggression (I don't know if he's going to preschool, but maybe he is responding to some bullying behavior or acting out what some others that he knows do). But you are going to have to keep talking, keep explaining, and keep disciplining until he "gets it".

I think it's a natural inclination of most toddlers and esp. preschoolers, regardless of gender, to push, shove, hit, pinch, and throw until they are taught differently. It's bad enough when it happens with their friends or sibs, but most of those times it's not going to be lethal force. With a creature that's significantly smaller or more delicate, it can be lethal unintentionally. If your kiddo's at a stage where they're imitating things, you will have to be esp. vigilant about TV shows and cartoons where there is non-consequential violence until they're at a point where they realize that when a character is "squished" flat, they don't roll around, pop back out, and scamper off to the next adventure.

But please don't allow yourself to separate this into a "boy" problem. You are feeding into it, if you do that, even if you think that your son doesn't pick up on those cues. Treat this problem like you would biting. It's serious, totally unacceptable, but is NOT an indication that men are evil, boys will be boys, or that you have bred a sociopath.


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## aran

FWIW, I have a nephew who, at about 2 y.o., had spent time during the summer stomping ants and bugs (nobody made a big deal out of that being a problem). I was present with his parents when we pointed out a cute little toad. Nephew said "awww" looking at the toad, with curiosity, and then... STOMP!!! SPLAT!!! His mom, dad, and I all were like









We thought we had a future serial killer on our hands. But so far, so good. He is a strong, empathetic, well-adjusted 19-year old now. His mom and dad were gentle in explaining to him what was wrong with killing the toad, and eventually it sunk in. I think he just didn't have any basis to understand why stomping a toad would be less acceptable than stomping a bug. I think it's tough for a young kid to know the difference, and it's speciesist to make a distinction (this is only relevant for those who think stomping bugs is OK. I think bug-stomping is OK, and toad stomping is not, but then again I am an out-of-the-closet speciesist).


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## L.J.

I agree that maybe you'll need to stick by him a little closer for awhile and help him learn things like empathy and respect for other living things. It's tricky.....my youngest seems intrigued when he stomps on a bug. I don't think I've quite gotten the message through to him yet either.


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## greymama

I would be concerned if it were my son. I have two boys ages 2 and 7-months, I am already preparing myself for the day when they dismember a spider or something like that. We are very much an animal loving family, and already teach our children about being kind to animals, but unfortunately sometimes I think children do things like this out of curiosity coupled with not having a full understanding of death. None the less, I would keep hammering home the point that treating any living creature that way is unnacceptable.

That said, once when I was young I microwaved a container of ants. So I don't think it's only a boy thing, but rather an young child playing outdoors thing.


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## OnTheFence

Thanks for all the responses.

For the record, my son sees a psychiatrist for bipolar disorder. He is 4, about to be 5 in about 12 weeks. I've asked him about this before, and he has assured me that this single behavior is not a indication he is going to be a sociopath or has anything to do with being bipolar.(or he said a lot of men and women would be) My son does have empathy, just not for frogs and bugs it seems. As I said we have talked to him about this before. Jeff and I both agree its wrong, but my husband (who is from rural AL) doesn't see it as all that abnormal (he claims he has done worse!) I really doubt I can get my husband to coo at a frog, but thanks for the visual :LOL
I wonder if my son thinks of frogs as bugs. I mean we do kill flies in our house and other nastee bugs and maybe he doesnt "get" why we do it and he can't. He also knows that we(not us personally) kill fish, cows, pigs, etc for meat but I've explained to him we don't eat frogs. Could he be confused? Or could it be curiousity?
He's in bed now and he said to me how sorry he was he "ran over that frog" and "poked it with a stick" before he went to sleep.








I wonder if I am worrying about this too much. I don't want to over analyze it, nor make lite of it.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow

I just want to say that first of all you do not have a serial killer on your hands at all. My sister, who is a special ed teacher, said that this is actually typical (not all little boys do this, but it isn't a sign of pschotic behavior unless lots of other things are off also) of a 4-7 year old boy. Something to do with exerting control over other things. I would definately make it a very big no no, and explain over and over this is wrong. I think the story about the frog having a family would be a good thing to tell him. I also wanted to say that boys actually develop empathy before girls on the developemntal scale, strangely one of the few things that boys develop before girls. So perhaps it is our interpretation of what boys and girls do that effect what we see as empathy, and not what is reality. Just keep telling him it is wrong. Do you have any pets that he is close too? If you do you could use your pets as examples of how animals are creatures that share our earth also and have feelings as well.


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## PancakeGoddess

I think there has already been a lot of good feedback on this, but my one additional comment is about sending him to his room.

I'm reconsidering the practice of sending a kid away when he breaks a rule in our family. I will still suggest some down time if he's wildly angry, but if not, I think it makes a lot more sense to *connect* rather than *separate* when there's a behavior issue. There's lots more about this in my new favorite parenting book, Hold on to Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld. It's a great book.


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## edamommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I mean we do kill flies in our house and other nastee bugs and maybe he doesnt "get" why we do it and he can't. He also knows that we(not us personally) kill fish, cows, pigs, etc for meat but I've explained to him we don't eat frogs. Could he be confused? Or could it be curiousity?
He's in bed now and he said to me how sorry he was he "ran over that frog" and "poked it with a stick" before he went to sleep.








I wonder if I am worrying about this too much. I don't want to over analyze it, nor make lite of it.

YES, it sure is confusing... for us it's not so confusing... we don't eat animals. We don't support the factory farming of animals. We don't hurt animals. We don't stomp frogs... end of story. But, as more carni-folks I can sure see how confusing it is "... yes, we eat/hurt cows and chickens, etc. But, please stop stomping the frogs, becauuuuuuuuuuuuuuse?..."


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## USAmma

Would it help if you bought a similar creature such as a turtle or lizard and taught him to care for it as a family pet? Perhaps it would teach him compassion more than with random creatures he doesn't know. If you gave it a name he might realize that it has feelings, too.

If it makes you feel any better, my SIL and I were talking once. I have no idea how we got on this topic but anyway, we both admitted to having tortured or killed insects as children. In my case I don't think I had developed empathy yet. I was simply curious about what they looked like inside. The first couple of them started out as accidents from holding them too hard in my hand and they died. I didn't do it often, and it was not out of malice or anger or cruelty. I was just curious and didn't have the empathy to realize that it was hurting another creature. I was pre-K at that time. My SIL admitted to doing the exact same thing at the same age.

I have a vivid memory of when I was in Kindergarten and there was a baby bird that somehow ended up in the middle of the playground. Some of us were curious, some tried to give it water. Then one kid went up and stomped it. Just like that. We had a burial before recess was over. Some of the kids were really upset and some were just curious about how baby birds looked. I really think empathy is a developmental stage that comes earlier for some and later for others.

So it's not necessarily a boy thing, and it might be normal for some kids. BTW both of us turned out okay. She is one of the most compassionate and kind people on earth. She is an activist for anti-child labor, animal rights, and the elderly.

My own dd is 4.5 and she is just learning about empathy but still can't resist the urge to sometimes kick or hit the dog. It's not because she's angry or a bad person. She just has this thought and she does it. Then a few minutes later she will be all over the dog hugging her and saying sorry for hitting. She will even cry and say, "I love Faye so much. I don't want her to be mad at me" and will bawl and wail from the deepest part of her heart. She's slowly learning empathy, slowly but surely.


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## Itlbokay

I like what someone else suggested about not sending him off to be alone.

Hopefully it won't happen again, but if it does you could show your sadness about the frog's passing and be very empathetic about what happened.


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## Ravin

FWIW, my sisters and I definitely did our share of killing or playing w/ dead critters as kids. When I was in 3rd grade, I took a Saturday Scholars class at the local university called "Cuttin' Up Critters" that was basically a hands-on anatomy lab. We started w/ worms, grasshoppers, then crawfish, fish, rats, and finally examined pre-prepared dissected cats. This was all in a supervised environment.

WHen my sisters were about 6th or 7th grade, they brought home a snake in a jar they'd stoned to death. I (in high school, about 16) dissected it and tanned the hide with my father's help.

They would also bring home injured animals to nurse back to health (funny story about a chipmunk that got loose in our house), and we'd catch horned toads and preying mantises to keep in jars (w/ holes!) for a few days or weeks before either we set them loose again or they died. I also had great fun in middle school catching insects for a friend's insect collection for her biology class (which I then raided for specimens when I had the same assignment the following year).

I'm a vegetarian now, but not because I think killing animals is always wrong, but because I think there is something wrong w/ the disconnect in our society between the animals in their factory farms and the meat all nicely contained in plastic packages in the grocery store. In short, if I'm not willing to be the hunter or the butcher, I won't eat the meat, and the way animals are treated while living in the modern meat industry I find disturbing.

I don't think I would be concerned if my child killed frogs that she'd turn into a psycho. I do think I'd use it as an opportunity for her to learn about life and death, and probably go out with her to catch some and interact w/ them while they're alive. Possibly, depending on the age of the child and whether it was an animal that could be eaten, I'd also keep the carcass of the critter she'd killed and we'd watch the process of decomposition, so she could fully process the whole cycle of life/death/life.

Basically, I think what's wrong is our disconnect from the natural world and from death, and behavior like your son's is investigating those links. Seeking to help him explore those connections in a way you might percieve as more acceptable is, to me, a more desirable goal than cutting him off from the living world and furthering the disconnect.


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## flapjack

I've had to deal with this- not frogs, but insects. For me, I brought it back to a faith/spirituality perspective- offset against a kids natural "if I do this, what happens" curiosity you need to get them to understand that your family has basic moral precepts- so if you want "do not kill" to be one of them, you need to make it very clear where this boundary lies (it may mean getting rid of the fly spray.) and why. FWIW, this is the child who has refused to eat meat since the age of 2, and thinks dairy farming is cruel. He is not, in any sense, a sociopath (and hasn't done it again, either.) It's fair to show your disappointment, and to tell him of your disappointment in him, though, if that's what feels right.


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## edamommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
My own dd is 4.5 and she is just learning about empathy but still can't resist the urge to sometimes kick or hit the dog. It's not because she's angry or a bad person. She just has this thought and she does it. Then a few minutes later she will be all over the dog hugging her and saying sorry for hitting. She will even cry and say, "I love Faye so much. I don't want her to be mad at me" and will bawl and wail from the deepest part of her heart. She's slowly learning empathy, slowly but surely.









:


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## Itlbokay

edamommy, try to be understanding...I see from your sig. that your little one is still very small, so I can see how this may be shocking to you. Those with older children aren't as shocked perhaps because we've experienced something similar with one of our children or a friend's child.

Peace


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## edamommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Itlbokay*
edamommy, try to be understanding...I see from your sig. that your little one is still very small, so I can see how this may be shocking to you. Those with older children aren't as shocked perhaps because we've experienced something similar with one of our children or a friend's child.

Peace









My son isn't the only male child I've ever known! lol! I was a nanny for 2 boys (starting when they were ages 1 and 4) for 5 years! I polled my dad and his two brothers. I've grown up w/ many many boys! And, like I said, only one was a "animal abuser"! It SHOULD be shocking to everyone!


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## Itlbokay

I understand, it does sadden me as well. Forgive me for making assumptions.

But empathy is something that needs to be taught with patience


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## delicious

well....i agree with edamommy...it is shocking to me to hear this-although, not the 4yo hitting the dog because both my kids have hit the dogs before. now, it's not like i sit there and watch and let them, but it's happened. i think the dogs have a sense of knowing they are just babies because they know to just move away..

anyways, i asked dh. nope, never hurt/killed a small animal as a child. i find the whole thing really upsetting, but i'm way oversensitive.







:


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## Dechen

I will totally be beside myself if my dd kills small animals, because I'm a bleeding heart, but ...

4 is young. Not all 4 year olds "get it." It is very sad the frogs have gotten sent to the Great Swamp in the Sky, and definately someone thing to be prevented, but I wouldn't freak out about it. In an 8 yr old, I'd be more concerned. But 4 and 5? Upsetting, but not "Hit the panic button" upsetting.


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## darsmama

LOL at the "Great Swamp in the Sky"

Edamommy, I think you just have to accept that different people here have different definitions of what is ok to kill and what is not. Not up for debate (atleast not with me







) but, its a fact and posters here have a LOT of opportunity to learn about vegan-ness and the like, (except I still haven't found out why its okay to eat plants! They are living tooooo!) so don't assume b/c they think/feel differently they haven't done their research...Just a gentle, loving, reminder. (It is good to be passionate about some things though!!!)

Anyone wanna hear the worse animal abuse story I have ever heard??

My BIL (DH bro) who is a MAJOR alcoholic psycho abusive drunk had as a teenager:

Tied two cats tails together and swung them over a telephone wire so they would face each other and fight to death. Did this numerous times
Buried a cat up to its neck in dirt and then ran over it with a lawn mower
and fed acid to a puppy (the dog ate rocks the rest of its life)

I'm sure there was more, but I probably blocked it out. As a child did he kill animals? No, he barely even ate meat (too poor for meat!). Yet, he grew in his teenage and adult years to be an animal killer, decorated marine to a falling down psychotic drunk.

Anyways Kim, I like the pp idea of teaching him about a daddy frog and all the baby frogs that will be missing him tonight ):

Katie


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## Foobar

BACK OT....

Given your son's other issues, I would just work with him on this. I don't think he is old enough to understand why he does this. But you can work on asking him if he thinks of the frog's family, what about the baby froggies, etc. Maybe this will help him understand more about the living thing?

I also like the idea of a turtle or lizard as a family pet... maybe that will help him learn to care for animals....


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## darsmama

Kimberly,
I was being serious about the plant thing..Really. I was just trying to be cutesy at the same time. No harm meant, promise.


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## OnTheFence

Thanks again for all the feedback.

I feel somewhat better and not nearly as horrified. I spoke with my son's preschool director and teacher today, both who have nearly 20 years experience between them and they assured me that while horrifying, it is pretty normal behavior in kids this age. She said most kids are 1)not going to understand the whole death thing 2) they are curious about cause and effect and 3) with lizzards and frogs -- they are viewed more like bugs.

Edamommy -- I just want to say I appreciate your input here, however I want to say that your child is young and I can totally understand where you are coming from in your beliefs. (I once had very similar ones) As my children have gotten older, the more parents I interact with, the more I have come to realize how diverse people are and how they see things, and how our children can surprise us in ways that totally knock us off our rockers. Just kind of keep that in mind.









I have done research into veganism and vegetarian lifestyle. We have friends that are. However I would never be a vegan (not willing to debate why here or anywhere else in this forum). And I don't see myself going to not eating meat. I like meat. However I do agree with one posters thoughts and opinions about how the farming/meat industry is doing the animals and the consumers a disservice. I know first hand actually because I worked in a chicken processing plant at 19 for 6 months and my husbands family has worked in the "chicken" business for over 30 years. I've also visited dairy farms, and farms where people get veal from. While I can't always get meat in the most ethical way, we have fed out our own cows, pigs, and chickens with other family/friends for meat. They were happy critters and healthy (not full of hormones and drugs). Even though I live in a city, it is considered quite a rural area and killing animals for food is a way of life, and its something my children are aware of. I know not all people agree with it, and that's okay, I do understand that.

I just want to say that I DONT want my child killing frogs, even out of curiousity. I think that maybe I have overreacted in some ways, and should have handled the situation differently based on some of the responses here. Hopefully there will not be a next time, but in case there is, I will remember the advice that was given.

I also think its a good idea about getting something like a frog as a pet. Maybe one of those grow your own tadpole things.


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## Flor

Wow. I am surprised at the surprise you all seem to have because in my life as a daycare provider/afterschool program supervisor this is a VERY COMMON occurance. One year I was a counselor for about 12 kids ages 9-12, mostly boys. They kept trying to KILL BIRDS! I was shocked. The male counselor laughed. Their dads laughed (they were mostly hunters themselves). Maybe one kid was upset by this. They kept throwing rocks at seagulls. I 'd say, what are you going to do if you actually hit the bird and it is hurt or killed? It's just a bird, they'd say. Once that summer (under the other counselor's watch) they managed to kill a seagull and once they took apart a bird that was already dead. I made them bury both birds and talked and talked about respect for living things-- but, I don't know how much sunk in. I'd say there was only one kid that had "issues" the rest, just being stupid, following the crowd. For the record, I personally have a lot of memories of boys doing this and so far none are sociopaths.
I think younger kids are still learning and don't understand the limits. Is it ok to kill a bug? A snail? A ladybug? A frog? Mice in the house? My cat leaves us dead things all the time.
My older son has always had empathy, but the younger one is a snail squisher so far. He loves them, but then squishes them and is sad that they are "broken." I pretend to be sad for the snail. We name the snails. It is a process. It is just that those things are fragile. He can pinch me, and the cat, he can run us over with a truck and we're ok, it is almost that he doesn't understand the physics of it.


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## Kirsten

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ravin*
FWIW, my sisters and I definitely did our share of killing or playing w/ dead critters as kids. When I was in 3rd grade, I took a Saturday Scholars class at the local university called "Cuttin' Up Critters" that was basically a hands-on anatomy lab. We started w/ worms, grasshoppers, then crawfish, fish, rats, and finally examined pre-prepared dissected cats. This was all in a supervised environment.

I don't have time to read the entire thread yet but wow - there is a class for eight year olds called "Cuttin' Up Critters"???







I refused to do dissection in high school - did the 500 word paper instead each time it came up. I understand it for pre-med but for high school kids? And eight year olds?? I just think it is unnecessary and sad.

To the OP, I would be concerned and stay on top of it, but not necessarily worried to an extreme. It is of course upsetting but I do think that it falls within the range of what some little boys (I know a pp said girls too but this seems to me to be something that is found primarily among the boy set) do as they are growing up. I think you'll find lots of kids who smash bugs, even the pour salt on slugs thing. But somehow we understand (or believe) that frogs and birds fall into a different category.

When I nannied, the sweet, darling, precious little boy whom I had loved and cared for 11 hours a day for almost five years completely freaked me out in a similar way. I had quit working to stay home and have my own kids but did go back and babysit for them in later years. So I was at their house, with the two of them and my own toddler. The girls were in the house with me and he was playing outside in the back yard - whole back of the house is windows so I can see him running around. I notice that he is kind of sneaking around, slowly and crouching down a bit. Then he raises his hand and throws a rock - at a bird sitting on the ground! I came unglued. He was probably around seven years old? Old enough to know better! I went flying out the patio door and yelling his name. He knew what I was mad about. I don't remember the exact words but it was something to the effect that he "may not ever do that again! We don't throw rocks at living things. It could hurt or kill the bird. Come in the house. I am very, very sad and angry that you did that." I did have the immediate thought that serial killers start out by hurting animals. I do not think he will be a sociopath. But I do know one and he did hurt animals as a boy.

In the frog situation of the op, I would be very on top of it. He would not be alone outside or near any animals at all without my direct supervision. I can appreciate your worry and I'd feel the same. It is probably just a little boy thing but I'd keep an eye on it.


----------



## Itlbokay

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Thanks again for all the feedback.

I feel somewhat better and not nearly as horrified. I spoke with my son's preschool director and teacher today, both who have nearly 20 years experience between them and they assured me that while horrifying, it is pretty normal behavior in kids this age. She said most kids are 1)not going to understand the whole death thing 2) they are curious about cause and effect and 3) with lizzards and frogs -- they are viewed more like bugs.












Glad to hear that you are feeling better about this.


----------



## Itlbokay

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
My son isn't the only male child I've ever known! lol! I was a nanny for 2 boys (starting when they were ages 1 and 4) for 5 years! I polled my dad and his two brothers. I've grown up w/ many many boys! And, like I said, only one was a "animal abuser"! It SHOULD be shocking to everyone!










Even though I took care of lots of other people's children before having my own, as well as having brothers also, I have found that I am a lot more understanding on a lot of child rearing/parental issues now that I have children of my own. As I pass different milestones with them, I feel that my understanding grows as well.


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## Soundhunter

I totally agree that this is not just a boy thing. I used to torture bugs, especially grasshoppers, who hop about maddly after their heads are ripped off







When I lived in the country, all the kids did this stuff, we where allowed to freely roam the fields and river banks without parental micro-management. I offer Emma just as much freedom as is necessary for her safety, and she squishes the odd caterpillar, which doesn't faze me (they infest fruit trees here and theres no shortage of the buggers) I also teach her how to be kind to our cats, how to hold bugs gently if she wants to look at them, and she's already very good at recognizing birds by their sounds. I don't think she's growing up to be a chronic mutilator, but rather a curious kid who is given some freedom to explore what kids explore, without me always in her face about it.

I also think that MOST kids, if left to their own devices and with plentiful access to bugs/frogs would engage in the curiousity resulting in killing. Puppies and kittens do the same thing, I think it's very normal.

From what I understand about the serial killer/psycho connection, if the torture involves family pets, this is a warning sign, and if they torture other creatures with conscious pleasure from causing suffering, rather than common childood scientific curiosity and amusement.

With an older kid, I think getting a pet frog for them is a brilliant way to teach them compassion while also satisfying their curiosity, however I wonder if keeping a captive wild animal, as frogs are, is actually crueler than killing them (they are common prey to various animals).


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## mommytolittlelilly

I don't think getting a frog for a pet is a good way to teach empathy, only because frogs just don't make very good pets (in the sense that they're not going to run up to you and want to be petted, etc.). Ditto with turtles. Please don't get a frog!! You may end up with another dead frog on your hands. They are hard to take care of, and well, not really meant for captivity.

I think a better idea for teaching empathy for frogs would be to get some books out of the library, like maybe something that anthropomorphises (SP??) frogs. There's a picture book I saw about how Froggy went a courtin' at our library, and also there's always those Frog and Toad stories.


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## captain crunchy

I guess I am a bit shocked that on Mothering of all places...people are all happy to swap their stories of animal abuse (that cat story was particularly charming) in order to make someone else feel better about their child's abuse of a harmless creature.

I can understand wanting to be empathetic --for example, sharing something like -- "I did this once and though it was wrong, I turned out okay..."

...but what is particularly disturbing is the seeminlg proud antecdotes "wanna hear the worst story I ever heard!!! My brother tied two cats together and strung them up to fight to the death!!"

Gee, that would make me so proud if my son did that.

Again, I am not suggesting this child is a psycho or something... but now learning he is bipolar... I am very concerned that his psychologist seemed to think it has nothing to do with it--- I know A LOT through my education about biplolar disorder and I know that 2 big issues most bipolar people struggle with is empathy and impulse control...

It just makes me sad to see that a lot of posters are taking the position of "oh well, haven't we all tortured and killed a few animals in our lives"....

No, we all haven't.


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## mamawanabe

I would say not to get a pet to teach how him to to be nice to animals. Get a pet AFTER he understands that animals are not our entertainment. Pets our our responsibility and shouldn't be used as to teach because, until kids learn the lessons, there could be mistreatment. My friends 4 year old (mostly a sweet kid) loves to chase her cat - he thinks it funny to yell and watch the cat scurry. My friend wanted to get a kitten and said it woudl be her son's kitten and he would learn to be nice to it. The kitten is now an adult cat that is permanently neurotic - lives under the bed all day and comes out only at night. Its little brain was formed around this yelling chasing kid (he never hurt it physically) and pschological damage was done.


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## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor*
I think younger kids are still learning and don't understand the limits. Is it ok to kill a bug? A snail? A ladybug? A frog? Mice in the house? My cat leaves us dead things all the time.

We do have cats that leave dead mice, lizzards, and birds on our backporch. I never gave much thought to it until just now, that my son sees this going on and how proud our cats look when they bring us "gifts".


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## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Again, I am not suggesting this child is a psycho or something... but now learning he is bipolar... I am very concerned that his psychologist seemed to think it has nothing to do with it--- I know A LOT through my education about biplolar disorder and I know that 2 big issues most bipolar people struggle with is empathy and impulse control...

It just makes me sad to see that a lot of posters are taking the position of "oh well, haven't we all tortured and killed a few animals in our lives"....

No, we all haven't.

While my son has been diagnosed with bipolar he has never had a problem with empathy, ever. Just want to make it clear that bipolar in children, especially the very young child, is much different than say older children (over 10) and adults. I know a great deal about bipolar myself because having a child with it, you need to know as much as your doctor does. Also, his impulses are "normal" for his age range because he is on medication and has been stable for sometime now. I just don't want someone to read this thread and think that just because a child has bipolar, doesnt mean they can't , don't, won't have empathy.

As far as the other people's stories, well, I appreciated them. I never did anything to harm a small animal or lizzard/frog like, but I know many who have, especially after today when I was talking about this up at the school.

I am not going to micro-manage my son either. I know that has been suggestion that I need to supervise him in this way but I don't agree that is what we need to do. We have two cats and he hasn't done anything to try and mame them, nor has he done this with birds or dogs, just frogs. My husband also doesnt think we need to do this either, because he thinks its going to give him a complex -- he's already micro-managed in other areas as it is.


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## captain crunchy

Quote:

I just don't want someone to read this thread and think that just because a child has bipolar, doesnt mean they can't , don't, won't have empathy.
I wasn't suggesting that at all and I am sorry if that is what you got. I was merely suggesting that is something that people with bipolar struggle with (crap, even people who DON'T have bipolar!)...and it is...that is not saying that people with bipolar don't have empathy, or impulse control...but to me, someone killing a frog to "see it flatten like a pancake just because"... suggests not the best of impulse control or empathy.. that is all. Take it for what it is.. I am not saying your child is crazy, or a bad child, or that he won't grow up to be a perfectly wonderful, well-adjusted, kind person... I completely believe that he has a greater chance of that than anything else.. (growing up fine I mean)

I was just putting it out there that I personally would not just chalk it up to *boys will be boys*...


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## mamawanabe

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I am not going to micro-manage my son either. I know that has been suggestion that I need to supervise him in this way but I don't agree that is what we need to do. We have two cats and he hasn't done anything to try and mame them, nor has he done this with birds or dogs, just frogs. My husband also doesnt think we need to do this either, because he thinks its going to give him a complex -- he's already micro-managed in other areas as it is.

I understand not wanting to micromanage his outdorr play. But I would feel the defenseless frogs he could kill in the future a SERIOUS repsonsibility of mine that would probably overide my desire for my son to have time outside free of a hovering mama/dad (i'm mostly vegan BTW as is my dh, so somewhat biased).

It sounds like he does think of frogs as insects. Personify them, and bugs too. Charlottes Web is great for that (he should be old enough).


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## onlyzombiecat

That would be very upsetting and hard to deal with.

I would not be okay if my dd killed a frog. She would learn to understand that it was unacceptable or she would not play outside. Maybe talk about how you can handle/observe the frog gently and practice with a rubber frog. Maybe talk about a frog's life cycle. Maybe observe frogs at the zoo/pet store. I would not actually get a pet though. http://allaboutfrogs.org/froglnd.shtml
Speak to your ds firmly and honestly, and keep the focus on the act not on him.

I think I might start talking about death if you haven't already. Get a book about it.

http://www.animaland.org/


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## Mylie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I guess I am a bit shocked that on Mothering of all places...people are all happy to swap their stories of animal abuse (that cat story was particularly charming) in order to make someone else feel better about their child's abuse of a harmless creature.

I can understand wanting to be empathetic --for example, sharing something like -- "I did this once and though it was wrong, I turned out okay..."

...but what is particularly disturbing is the seeminlg proud antecdotes "wanna hear the worst story I ever heard!!! My brother tied two cats together and strung them up to fight to the death!!"

Gee, that would make me so proud if my son did that.

Again, I am not suggesting this child is a psycho or something... but now learning he is bipolar... I am very concerned that his psychologist seemed to think it has nothing to do with it--- I know A LOT through my education about biplolar disorder and I know that 2 big issues most bipolar people struggle with is empathy and impulse control...

It just makes me sad to see that a lot of posters are taking the position of "oh well, haven't we all tortured and killed a few animals in our lives"....

No, we all haven't.


I have to totally agree with this...I would never allow my child to think it was okay to kill an innocent animal/bird/and or insect...It is one thing if a person is taking for food for the table..Another if it is for entertainment or anger issues or just because...Kids may do it because they have a curiosity on what will happen when I do this but they must me taught that what they have done is totally wrong and must never do it again..It is not funny to see a cat tortured or a bird stoned to death..That pain and fear was very real to them..And children need to be taught that those animals feel pain and fear the same as they do..That said...

I have dealt with this not with my child but with a nephew who has been doing it for years...Years ago when my son was 8 and this child was 5 he threatened to kill a batch of newborn kittens cause everyone was saying they were going to take them home when they were weaned...He pulled out a kitchen knife and while the girl cousins ran off with the kittens he had every intention of killing, my son tried to stop him..He tried to cut my son.He cut his shirt..Luckilly my son is bigger and knocked him down..I am a gentle person but I blew up on this..His mom is in denial..I made it very clear to this child and his mother what would happen if it ever happened again..

The other night the same child now 10 years old was angry at my son and other nephew for holding his frog..He cut the frogs legs off and repeatly stabbed it..Then kept catching frogs just to stab and maim.When the other boys made noises to scare the frogs away so he couldn't he threatened to kill them with knives..

My reason for writing all this...It may be nothing now but it might be something later...If it turns into a pattern there could be a problem and I would seek help..I am not looking to debate and I won't but seeing people making it out to be normal to kill helpless creastures for just the fun of it makes me cringe.JMHO Love Mylie


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## mommytolittlelilly

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
We do have cats that leave dead mice, lizzards, and birds on our backporch. I never gave much thought to it until just now, that my son sees this going on and how proud our cats look when they bring us "gifts".

One way you could deal with that issue is to keep your cats inside the house. And when they're outside the house, you could keep them on a leash.

Doing these things would:

1.) eliminate one source of confusion for your son in regards to killing things

2.) protect your cats

3.) protect songbirds that are already under assault from habitat loss.

I used to have a really good paper re: how and why to do this, if you're interested I could try and find it.


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## Dechen

Only have a moment, but I have never heard that people with bipolar struggle with empathy.

Impulse control yes, but not empathy.

I'd be curious to see a reference for that claim.


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## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommytolittlelilly*
One way you could deal with that issue is to keep your cats inside the house. And when they're outside the house, you could keep them on a leash.

Doing these things would:

1.) eliminate one source of confusion for your son in regards to killing things

2.) protect your cats

3.) protect songbirds that are already under assault from habitat loss.

I used to have a really good paper re: how and why to do this, if you're interested I could try and find it.

My cats are "working cats" and were indoor/outdoor critters until a few weeks ago. One of my children is allergic to them and they can no longer come inside.


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## mommytolittlelilly

Darn. That's too bad!


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## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
Only have a moment, but I have never heard that people with bipolar struggle with empathy.

Impulse control yes, but not empathy.

I'd be curious to see a reference for that claim.

http://www.med.umich.edu/depression/bipolar.htm

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art22771.asp

Its discussed in several books, off the top of my head is The Bipolar Child,
Bipolar Disorders: Clinical Course and Outcome, Bipolar Disorder A Guide For Patients and Families


----------



## edamommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor*
Wow. I am surprised at the surprise you all seem to have because in my life as a daycare provider/afterschool program supervisor this is a VERY COMMON occurance. One year I was a counselor for about 12 kids ages 9-12, mostly boys. They kept trying to KILL BIRDS! I was shocked. The male counselor laughed. Their dads laughed (they were mostly hunters themselves). Maybe one kid was upset by this. They kept throwing rocks at seagulls. I 'd say, what are you going to do if you actually hit the bird and it is hurt or killed? It's just a bird, they'd say. Once that summer (under the other counselor's watch) they managed to kill a seagull and once they took apart a bird that was already dead. I made them bury both birds and talked and talked about respect for living things-- but, I don't know how much sunk in. I'd say there was only one kid that had "issues" the rest, just being stupid, following the crowd. For the record, I personally have a lot of memories of boys doing this and so far none are sociopaths.
I think younger kids are still learning and don't understand the limits. Is it ok to kill a bug? A snail? A ladybug? A frog? Mice in the house? My cat leaves us dead things all the time.
My older son has always had empathy, but the younger one is a snail squisher so far. He loves them, but then squishes them and is sad that they are "broken." I pretend to be sad for the snail. We name the snails. It is a process. It is just that those things are fragile. He can pinch me, and the cat, he can run us over with a truck and we're ok, it is almost that he doesn't understand the physics of it.

This entire thread sickens me. My father is a farmer and a hunter... and he's never killed a frog or maimed a frog. Anyway, I'm really studdering over myself and have nothing nice to say... it's just sad and warped and twisted and NOT normal.


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## Marsupialmom

I hate to admit this but growing up we use to catch fireflies, break their tails off and squish the stuff on us so we would glow. UGH!!!!!!!!! Gross!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not appropriate, yet no adults stopped us.

At that young age I would wonder if it is more of a developmental issues, not completely understanding. Also, sometimes I think curiosity gets the better of children, like removing the wings off of insects or destroying cocoons to look inside.

I would also wonder if it is curiosity. There are several web sites and books with pictures of insides/dissecting. I was in college just before his age, so my son had open access to lots of pictures of the insides. He never went through this phase.

You might also want to look into a nature perserve and see if they have classes that might help develop empathy and fill his curiosity.


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## oceanbaby

I don't have time to read all the replies right now, but just wanted to mention a few things.

Ds1 has never wanted to smash a frog, but he has stepped on ants and asked to smash a worm or a bug after he'd been watching it for awhile. We discourage it, telling him that it hurts the bug, etc. I don't think I would punish him if he did smash a worm, but I would definitely let him know that I was upset, that it is not a nice thing to do, that it hurts a living creature.

I know it shouldn't be different if it was a frog - a living being is a living being - but it does seem different. A frog seems more wrong somehow. But I still think it falls within the realm of normal child curiosity.

Dh told me once about when he was in grade school. He and some of his friends were down at a creek throwing rocks. A duck came by, and for no reason whatsoever, dh decided to throw a rock at it. It him the duck in the head, and killed it. He said he felt horrible, and to this day feels haunted and guilty about what he did.

While it was a horrible thing that he did, I think it was an important learning experience for him as a child, and I'm sure he never intentionally hurt a living thing again (well, except for the rats we had in our garage). In fact, one time a friend unexpectedly gave me some live lobsters. I had to be gone all evening, and couldn't stand the thought of them suffocating in the fridge. So I asked dh to boil them for me, and he was really upset about having to do it!


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## Dechen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
http://www.med.umich.edu/depression/bipolar.htm

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art22771.asp

Its discussed in several books, off the top of my head is The Bipolar Child,
Bipolar Disorders: Clinical Course and Outcome, Bipolar Disorder A Guide For Patients and Families

The lack of empathy is mentioned under manic episodes. Okay, I get how someone experiencing mania might not be capable of empathy. I still wouldn't say it is a general personality trait in bipolar individuals.


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## UUMom

Wanting to put out that niether of my boys would have the heart to do anything like this! Nor would they throw a rock at a duck's head.

When i was a child, under 8 yrs old, there was a boy on my street who used to laugh and step on baby birds that fell from a particular nest, but all of us were horrified by this. I would run home an cry to my parents, but as far as I know, none of the other boy children could stand up to his horrible actions in front of him. He was known, for years, in our enighborhood, as a murdering loser. I moved from that neighborhood before I turned 10, and i have no idea whatever happened to that child.

But I can tell you that all of us kids thought he was crazy.

Edited to add. My dh just said-- "Not all boys find amusement in killing animals. I would have been totally horrified at witnessing something like this as a child".

My 11 yr old said: "Even if kids were teasing you to hit something with a rock, you can still have bad aim'.

To which my 16 yr old replied: Sometimes people are evil, but it doesn't mean we have to join them. And i agree with my brother that being teased for poor aim is better than knowing you killed an animal".


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## oceanbaby

I just wanted to clarify that I shared the story about my dh and the duck not as another "all kids kill things" story, but to illustrate that I think that sometimes kids can't understand death, don't have full impulse control yet, and are often sometimes just curious and confused about the connection between their actions and the result, especially when it comes to living creatures. (How was that for a run on sentence.)

I think it's interesting that some people here will say killing for food is okay but not for fun. Some people here say that killing any animal is wrong. Others I'm sure are okay with hunting (wasn't someone's dad a hunter?), but somehow see a boy stepping on a frog as horrible. Everyone is entitled to where they choose to draw the line, but please recognize that it is purely subjective. And if we as adults have disagreement and moral confusion, how can we expect a 4yo to totally understand?


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## UUMom

I do think it's quite possible for small children to not understand death and the ramifications of their actions. Your boy was quite small and in a position he didn't understand and couldn't reckon.

But I stand my my point that not all boys are going to kill animals-- and esp animals that they do not plan to serve to their families.


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## Ceinwen

There's been lots of stories shared on this thread (I took the time to read all the replies), lots of advice and commiseration and thought.

I just wanted to add (my own story I guess!) that I have two brothers and two sisters (I'm the oldest) and we grew up in the bush.

My parents are hardcore AP/GD, the whole gamut. I won't get into qualifications... :LOL

And each and every one of us squished, stomped, or killed something at some point. I agree with the people that said it has to do with empathy and compassion - both of which are skills that a child grows into, and is taught.

No - not every child does it. Yes - it can make us cringe. But on the grand scale of things our children may one day do - it's relatively small. We can use this as an opportunity to guide them and teach them.. not freak out on them and lable them.

Quote:

it's just sad and warped and twisted and NOT normal.
I usually just read, and seldom post - but here is why I felt compelled. That was one of the more rude and judgemental posts I've read lately. The OP was looking for advice, not your condemnation.

I would say wait a few years until your little one is older and exploring his world in ways you may disagree with - and then think back on this.

My two year old spent the day playing with worms in our garden. Sometimes she got a little rough and they got squished, or cut in half - I was there to remind her to be gentle and to let the worms go. Sad and warped and twisted? No. Normal - yes.








to everyone. Let's be nice to eachother...


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## UUMom

While i am not condemning anyone, I do not think that killing animals for fun past a certain age of reason is normal. Killing animals is one of those red flags that suggests a child is experienceing trauma of some sort. perhaps it is emotional, psychological -- whatever-- but i would be supremely worried if an older child of mine (over 4 or so) was involved with killing an animal the size the OP said this toad was. I know that some children burn bugs with magnifying glasses etc., but it's still not right and something needs to be said if a child is experiencing pleasure from such things.

It's not being judgemental--it's being concerned. A 3 yr old stepping on an ant is different from an older child squashing the guts out of something as big as a frog.

IMO, there is nothing 'normal' about this. I am happy to take the heat. But this is wrong. And this has nothing whatsoever to do with a young boy trying to feed his native or frontier family.


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## LeftField

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
It's not being judgemental--it's being concerned. A 3 yr old stepping on an ant is different from an older child squashing the guts out of something as big as a frog.

IMO, there is nothing 'normal' about this. I am happy to take the heat. But this is wrong. And this has nothing whatsoever to do with a young boy trying to feed his native or frontier family.











I'm sorry, but I can't buy that this is a "boy" thing. I asked my husband about this very thing and he said that he never has tortured or killed any animals and never thought about it. My Dad said that when he got his first gun as a kid (country kid), he went out and shot a litttle bird that was singing in a tree. When the bird fell on the ground, he cried and cried. It haunted him for years and when he tells the story, you can tell that it still upsets it. The problem I have is not only the size of the animal, but the method of killing (death by repeated Tonka rolling sounds horrible), the fact that another child repeatedly tried to intervene (so not an issue of quick impulse control) and the fact that it's happened more than once. I could see something like it happening once, like my Dad's bird story, and then the child realizes what death is. But the fact that the boy keeps killing the frogs after many explanations is especially disturbing to me. And I really hate how people brush this stuff off as "boy stuff" when it's really not true.

I wish I had real advice for the OP. I guess my only advice would be to shadow this boy until this behavior stops, but (I think) she's said that she feels it's unnecessary "micro-managing". I hope that a good solution is reached for the animal's sakes and for the sake of this child.


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## OnTheFence

WOW.

It's either a normal developmental thing, or my child is warped and not "normal".

I want to say that I don't put frogs on the same "level" as some of you are, that is for sure. And I guess I don't get some of the comments. I've probably run over more frogs in my driveway and I never give a second thought to their pain and suffering, however I don't want my son killing them for any reason. I just love the description one of the posters gave about the Tonka Truck (this is sarcastic) but more than likely my son got this from the fact he has seen his fair share of frogs, smashed like pancakes in the driveway and road. Not that I approve, but he is FOUR, and they do not have the cognitive abilites that adults have.

I'll just add one more thing to be paranoid about and when the police interview me or Prime Time does in a few years, I will reflect back on all this and if he turns out to be a Doctor working for Green Peace, I'll just have to think it was dumb luck my messed up kid got to that point. Oy.


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## USAmma

I have a spirited child and I hate it when people judge her or me (and my parenting) when the fact is she is just developing differently than other kids. A little faster in some areas, a little slower in others. I'm sure your ds is the same-- and he'll get it someday about the frogs and empathy.

It was so easy for me to judge other people before I had kids of my own. When Abi was a baby and toddler, I used to think to myself, "My child will _never_ do . . ."and sure enough that has come back to bite me every time. :LOL


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*







I have a spirited child and I hate it when people judge her or me (and my parenting) when the fact is she is just developing differently than other kids. A little faster in some areas, a little slower in others. I'm sure your ds is the same-- and he'll get it someday about the frogs and empathy.

It was so easy for me to judge other people before I had kids of my own. When Abi was a baby and toddler, I used to think to myself, "My child will _never_ do . . ."and sure enough that has come back to bite me every time. :LOL

O yes, I know exactly what you mean. My oldest is 8. Out of the three children I have now, she had more of my undivided attention, I was so overly AP, she was a vegetarian, I did Montessori at home with her for three years -- the list goes on and on, and I said "she will never do ...." or I would put it off on my "great" parenting that she would choose not to do XY&Z. Let's just say, I've eaten a lot of crow.


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## oceanbaby

Quote:

While i am not condemning anyone, I do not think that killing animals for fun past a certain age of reason is normal.
I can agree with this, but I do not agree that the "age of reason" is 4. While my ds has not done the kinds of things we are discussing, I would not be concerned if he did. I would be upset, and I would communicate as much to him. It is not okay in our family to hurt animals, but I would not think that he was disturbed.

He still asks me to if we can go visit Thomas on the Island of Sodor. He's still trying to figure out why I can't make the rain start and stop. He has absolutely no concept about death. We were in fact just today talking about what would happen if the car crashed (as I explained I couldn't read his book to him while I was driving), and when I tried to explain that we would get really hurt, he said that we could just put a band aid on.

So if he were to step on a frog, it would be coming from a place of ignorance and curiosity, not one of deriving a sick thrill by killing a living creature. Repeated behavior absolutely should be addressed, which the OP is doing. But at this age I just can't accept that it is a sign of a disturbed child.

Since he is my oldest I can't say yet at what age it would really begin to concern me. But having a 4 year old (just turned 4), I can say it is older than that.


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## mamakay

Four is still really, really young. Barely out of toddlerhood.
I'm not sure that all the men who claimed they never thought of killing a bug or a snail or a frog would even remember what they did or didn't do when they were four.
I'd just see it as a teaching opportunity.
I'd find a tadpole spot and take him there sometimes to watch how they grow. Get him a cute froggy stuffed animal. Turn him into a bona fide frog lover.


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## edamommy

hmmmmmmmmm my ds is 26 months old. I am not saying that he "grasps" death or the likes, but he DOES understand pain. He knows that he cannot pick up or attempt to pick up the cat or the rabbit as it may hurt them. He knows that his feet are for walking and jumping and kicking balls (etc) and NEVER for hurting an animal or another human. He KNOWS this! He converses about it. He follows the rule... once he pulled the cats tail and got bit... ONCE! And he's never abused the other animals either. Or his friends lizard and turtle. He is VERY curious. He is VERY active. But he truly understands that! And, his best buddy is 4... and he isn't a frog squisher (or whatever) either! SO, are these exceptional little boys?


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## joesmom

First I will say that the thought of my son smashing a frog makes me very sad. He has never done anything like that. He does not kill spiders or worms or bugs- although he swats flies for my mom sometimes. Once we were outside & he stepped on an ant & I told him I thought it was disrespectful to step on a bug when WE were the ones in HIS home... He is now a major bug rescuer & will come & tell me when he finds a spider in the house, before my mom gets to it, because she usually kills them.

Having said that, I do not in ANY way think that your son is messed up, sick, or twisted for what he did. I think he is young & he does not really comprehend that dead is dead & that animals- even frogs!- feel pain. I think as long as you continue to tell him that it was wrong, that will go a long way to ensuring that he does not do it again.

When I was little I pulled the legs off a daddy long legs because they continued to move afterwards- & I can remember squishing gypsy moth worms because their guts were bright green. I am not proud of that & I have not told Joe about it but I am telling you, just to reassure you that not every child who hurts small creatures will grow up into a cold blooded serial killer. Jeffrey Dahmer, yes, but how many more times have we heard the neighbors of a convicted murderer say, "He always seemed like such a NICE boy?..."

I can remember the boys in my 9th grade gym class hitting a turtle with a baseball bat, & I am getting sick to my stomach just typing that. I can't understand THAT type of cruelty AT ALL, but I don't think your son belongs in that category!









I was thinking, IF he does this again, what do you think he would do if you burst into tears? Because I know when Joe stepped on the ant, he could tell by my voice that I was appalled. It had a big impact on him I think.

Good luck to you, & please don't worry about your son growing up to store body parts in his basement. I can only imagine the struggles you have had, raising a son with bi polar disorder- my mom's 70 year old friend has this & it is a very hard illness to cope with.


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## joesmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
SO, are these exceptional little boys?

I would say more likely, they are normal, healthy kids. Just like the OP's kid.

My son, as I said above, has never smashed a frog, but he DID go through a biting stage. He bit several people, hard. None of his cousins went through that stage, but that does not make them right & Joe wrong. It makes them _different_. The worst thing we can do, is hear about a kid hurting an animal & then put a label on him... that will help to MAKE him turn into what we think he will become. Does that make sense?

I am gonna stop now, since I realized it is after midnight & Joe is still up.














:


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## USAmma

I just wanted to remind you of our rules. Please avoid the following things:

Quote:

Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.
and if someone violates these rules . . .

Quote:

Posting to discuss the statements or behavior of a member or members on the board, or to criticize another discussion on the boards. Such issues should be directed to the moderator or administrator privately and not made a subject of discussion in a thread.
You can report a post by clicking on the red triangle icon to the left of a post.

I have had to remove some posts and PM users who violated the user agreement. The thread is now back open for business.


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## UUMom

I am having trouble sleeping, thinking about this, and I have decide that instead of editing my words, I am trying to figure out why my words are bothering me- at 4:16 AM. So I've decided to not edit, but to soften my position.

While I know all boys don't kill animals, and we shouldn't assume they do/will, or completely accept that its 'normal'-- gosh that's a loaded word- I do think it's possible for a young child to have poor impulse control and not understand the full ramifications of his/her actions. If this is an isolated case, then I think a parent can chalk it up to a child who didn't get it. I personally would keep an eye on a child who killed an animal. I prob would micromanage for a time, just to see what was going on for him.

I wouldn't worry 'forever'. Impulsive things do happen whem you're little- that's a given. However, if my child was absorbed in killing small animals, or deliberately went out hunting frogs to kill them, then I would consider it something to worry about and address. I also think its possible for a child who enaged in this behavior to become a kind and loving adult, as people have related in this thread. Yet I would still wonder about the feelings of a small child engaged in this sort of thing.


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## Ceinwen

Quote:

I would say more likely, they are normal, healthy kids. Just like the OP's kid.
I really don't see what all the deep introspection is.

It's not like he's 12 and setting cats on fire. Yes, it's not nice or great that's he's squishing frogs - but like the OP said maybe I don't place the same level of importance on frogs that others are.

And as for bugs - I live in Northern Ontario where there are TONS of mosquitos and blackflies. From an early age kids are taught to swat and kill flying things, because guess what? They bite like a [email protected]#$ and really hurt.

And ITA, like one pp said - 4 is just barely out of toddlerhood.

Quote:

He knows that he cannot pick up or attempt to pick up the cat or the rabbit as it may hurt them. He knows that his feet are for walking and jumping and kicking balls (etc) and NEVER for hurting an animal or another human. He KNOWS this! He converses about it.
I guess my dd is really slow then. :LOL She's 28 months and she doesn't converse about *anything*. As far as she's concerned, her feet are under her control and she's still figuring out what they do. And she totally does not understand the concept of pain.

And while I am *not* generalizing (as I do not know *all* two year olds) I can say that the majority of the toddlers in our AP playgroup don't either.


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## edamommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
I really don't see what all the deep introspection is.

It's not like he's 12 and setting cats on fire. Yes, it's not nice or great that's he's squishing frogs - but like the OP said maybe I don't place the same level of importance on frogs that others are.

And as for bugs - I live in Northern Ontario where there are TONS of mosquitos and blackflies. From an early age kids are taught to swat and kill flying things, because guess what? They bite like a [email protected]#$ and really hurt.

And ITA, like one pp said - 4 is just barely out of toddlerhood.

I guess my dd is really slow then. :LOL She's 28 months and she doesn't converse about *anything*. As far as she's concerned, her feet are under her control and she's still figuring out what they do. And she totally does not understand the concept of pain.

And while I am *not* generalizing (as I do not know *all* two year olds) I can say that the majority of the toddlers in our AP playgroup don't either.

I'm so glad to know so many emotionally advanced boys, then!


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## Ceinwen

That wasn't very nice.









I was just saying that I think it can take several years for empathy to develop, and that my dd wasn't there yet.


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## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom*
I am not proud of that & I have not told Joe about it but I am telling you, just to reassure you that not every child who hurts small creatures will grow up into a cold blooded serial killer. Jeffrey Dahmer, yes, but how many more times have we heard the neighbors of a convicted murderer say, "He always seemed like such a NICE boy?..."

I was thinking, IF he does this again, what do you think he would do if you burst into tears? Because I know when Joe stepped on the ant, he could tell by my voice that I was appalled. It had a big impact on him I think.


For people reading this thread, I think they should know that Jeffrey Dahmer was an older child that mutilated household pets and wild animals. He didn't just kill them, most that time he set out and hunted and stole them, then pretty much dissected them alive. He had other pathology in his background as well.


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## UUMom

That's a good question--"Why all the deep introspection?"

But i think the answer is a simple one- we're all thoughtful parents who think.









Otherwise what's the point of any of our introspection and discussion here?

Love, Jack Handly


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## Brisen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
If my ds EVER so much as kicks dirt towards a frog he'll not see the light of day for weeks!

Hey, kids are animals too. They deserve fresh air and sunshine just as much as any ant, frog, chicken, or pig.







:

I agree with those who have said this behaviour would be a concern in an older kid; 4 is young to understand everything. Oh, and just to "qualify" my opinion, I have two boys, 5 and 3. The 3 yo squished a couple of ants when they started coming into our house with the warm weather, and he didn't really know what they were. (He was 2 the last time he saw ants, or any bugs other than the occasional spider.) He now carefully picks them up in tissue and puts them outside. My 5 yo has never squished anything, and admonishes other kids who do so -- even the bully kids who have pushed him around, hit him, and teased him over things of less significance. So I'm not a mom of thoughtless, horrible, critter killin' kids just trying to make excuses.


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## Ceinwen

Quote:

But i think the answer is a simple one- we're all thoughtful parents who think.
Well duh. Thanks for the clarification...









I am so trying to not take this personally - I was only trying to say that the answer to the question/problem was relatively simple and people were getting *way* off track with the comments.

No wonder people hesitate to come here for help.


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## UUMom

Hey- don't take that personally. I was trying to be ironic by stating the obvious.

And maybe it's Jack Handy-- or maybe I'm too old for that joke to work with younger people.


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## Ceinwen

I'll apologize then.









I didn't take it in the manner intended.

But I do intend to find out who Jack Handy is... :LOL

I'm still learning the intricacies of online discussion.


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## UUMom

Jack Handy was a character on Saturday Night Live, who used to pretend to be be deep by stating the obvious or the absurd in a soft, comforting voice and then going on say something really ridiculous. There would be soothing ocean sounds or Muzak in the background. So I was trying to pretend i was deep by being obvious.








:

Sometimes my jokes are too deep---or too dumb. Here are some of Jack's Deep Thoughts:

:LOLhttp://www.scoopy.net/humor/deep.htm


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## cmb123

Jumping in late, I just read this whole thread.
This stood out...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*

I want to say that I don't put frogs on the same "level" as some of you are, that is for sure. And I guess I don't get some of the comments. I've probably run over more frogs in my driveway and I never give a second thought to their pain and suffering, however I don't want my son killing them for any reason. .

And also another post the OP mentioned that they do kill bugs and other "nastys" in thier family.
I guess if you as a parent have no problem with that, it could be confusing to a 4 year old as to what's OK to kill and what's not. If you are running over frogs and squishing them with your car, why can't her do it with "his" car? Right?

In my house it's not ok to kill anything exept mosquitos ( i know some will think that's hypocritical, i think it is too, but we have a West Nile virus here). My kids have been taught to respect all living creatures, and have been taught the roll these creatures have in our world. None of my kids are animal killers- but each of them are obsessed with creatures of all kinds (right now my son is obsessed with butterflys) they observe them, read about them, talk about them- but never kill or intentionally hurt. But that's becuase that's what OUR family believes. Different families have different ideas about what's OK. As for boy's will be boy's...My son is the most compassionate of my children when it comes to creatures.

So I guess I'm just saying, if you want it to sink in with him that killing the frogs is NOT ok with you, than you should maybe show some compassion for the ones you squish it the driveway? I think kids learn best by following parent examples.

Even though to me what you've descibed so far and his age doesn't sound like he's gonna end up on America's Most Wanted...I do want to add that my brother IS a sociopath, and did find great pleasure in harming and torchering animals as I child. I wouldn't just brush it off (not that you are) I'd just keep track and watch for other warning signs.


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## joesmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
For people reading this thread, I think they should know that Jeffrey Dahmer was an older child that mutilated household pets and wild animals. He didn't just kill them, most that time he set out and hunted and stole them, then pretty much dissected them alive. He had other pathology in his background as well.


YES! That was my point, that not every toddler who kills the odd bug (or frog!







) is going to torture cats as he gets older...


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## mommytolittlelilly

I've been thinking about this some more, and I talked to my husband about it last night. This is going in a different direction other than when empathy should or could develop, and also whether or not to treat frogs like you would mammals. (I admit, I'm in the speciest camp that thinks frogs are extremely important as fellow vertebrates but insects aren't really on my protection list.)

Maybe someone already brought this up, but I think my husband had some really good insight. He felt that kids he knew growing up who hurt animals had other stuff going on at home or in some aspect of their lives that was bothering them. You mentioned that your son might be micromanaged in other areas at home, maybe you could re-exam that? Also, is there something going on, like tensions in the family about x,y,z? Kids are so very perceptive and so very effected by tensions and issues that might not have anything to do with them directly. None of this is to say that kids who have hurt animals at one time or another are in the path of becoming adult killers, just that something(s) may very well be upsetting these kids and that's a possible way for them to express it.


----------



## joesmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommytolittlelilly*
Maybe someone already brought this up, but I think my husband had some really good insight. He felt that kids he knew growing up who hurt animals had other stuff going on at home or in some aspect of their lives that was bothering them. You mentioned that your son might be micromanaged in other areas at home, maybe you could re-exam that? Also, is there something going on, like tensions in the family about x,y,z?

I feel bad for the OP- like she is going to be watching every move this little boy makes- waiting for the next shoe to drop...

I do agree that _sometimes_ when a kid hurts animals it is because of problems at home, or due to deep seated emotional issues- but sometimes, it is just because the kid does not fully "get" what he is doing.


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## edamommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom*
YES! That was my point, that not every toddler who kills the odd bug (or frog!







) is going to torture cats as he gets older...

frog, cat... what's the difference? Soft and fuzzy and NOT so much soft and fuzzy?









You know, for ME and MY family this may have happend ONCE (may happen once) ... but it wouldn't happen again. I'm mostly shocked that this kid did it more than once?!?!? Sure, we'll give him the benefit of the doubt the first time around... but someone missed the bus to have this sort of thing happen more than once!







:


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## aran

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
frog, cat... what's the difference? Soft and fuzzy and NOT so much soft and fuzzy?

OT. Or least somewhat OT.

Your view is interesting and I would like to understand it better.

So I am curious... where do you (and other gentle mamas who don't like the idea of anything being killed - even bugs) draw the line that it is OK to kill things? Are plants OK to kill, even though they have capabilities you might not have known about, like the ability to signal each other with biochemical "screams" when one is being maimed or killed, as a warning to others nearby? That makes me sad, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying a bouquet of flowers.

Do you mow your lawn? That's done for purely aesthetic reasons, and results in the deaths of toads, snakes, butterfiles, and other insects.

So that you know where I am coming from... I identified myself as a speciesist in a PP. I think killing some species is no problem (e.g., ants, spiders, snakes) and killing others is a problem unless for food (e.g., frogs, cats). My criteria are: if I feel threatened by it (snake) or it's absolutely nothing like me (ant) I don't mind killing it. If it's like me somehow (frogs' cute soft belly :LOL ) I do mind. But I am probably not enlightened, and have never really given this a lot of thought.


----------



## Raven67

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
WOW.

It's either a normal developmental thing, or my child is warped and not "normal".

I want to say that I don't put frogs on the same "level" as some of you are, that is for sure. And I guess I don't get some of the comments. I've probably run over more frogs in my driveway and I never give a second thought to their pain and suffering, however I don't want my son killing them for any reason. I just love the description one of the posters gave about the Tonka Truck (this is sarcastic) but more than likely my son got this from the fact he has seen his fair share of frogs, smashed like pancakes in the driveway and road. Not that I approve, but he is FOUR, and they do not have the cognitive abilites that adults have.

I'll just add one more thing to be paranoid about and when the police interview me or Prime Time does in a few years, I will reflect back on all this and if he turns out to be a Doctor working for Green Peace, I'll just have to think it was dumb luck my messed up kid got to that point. Oy.


OTF...why do you run over so many frogs?? I really don't understand that statement. I have frogs, squirells, birds, worms, snakes in my driveway, and I check before pulling out/in, to make sure nothing is in the way. The times I have run over roadkill (already dead) I feel kind of nauseous and sad. I think seeing your words about the frogs that you run over, and how you never care or give it a thought...puts this in a whole different light. It makes much more sense now. If you don't care at all when you run over a frog, why don't you want your son doing the same thing? I'm sure it's going to make it all the more difficult for you son to learn empathy for animals when there are so many exceptions around him.

Count me among those who find this disturbing. I think it is common for kids, especially boys, to behave this way...but, many things in our culture are common and disturbing. Animal abuse is a risk factor for later psychopathy...I think this behavior is right on the edge of very alarming. Since the child is so young, and he may have gotten messages that this is ok, it may not be such a huge warning sign. But, I am with the other posters in that I think it's awful, and it should be troubling to parents and all adults. I guess I am one of those people with a child too young to have a valid opinion...My dd is 18 months, and a few months ago, she used to take great pleasure in pulling the cats tails/fur...but, she is already out-growing the behavior and treating the cats gently. I wouldn't expect to see that kind of thing at age four, and I would be disturbed.


----------



## edamommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chunklin'sMommy*
OT. Or least somewhat OT.

Your view is interesting and I would like to understand it better.

So I am curious... where do you (and other gentle mamas who don't like the idea of anything being killed - even bugs) draw the line that it is OK to kill things? Are plants OK to kill, even though they have capabilities you might not have known about, like the ability to signal each other with biochemical "screams" when one is being maimed or killed, as a warning to others nearby? That makes me sad, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying a bouquet of flowers.

Do you mow your lawn? That's done for purely aesthetic reasons, and results in the deaths of toads, snakes, butterfiles, and other insects.

So that you know where I am coming from... I identified myself as a speciesist in a PP. I think killing some species is no problem (e.g., ants, spiders, snakes) and killing others is a problem unless for food (e.g., frogs, cats). My criteria are: if I feel threatened by it (snake) or it's absolutely nothing like me (ant) I don't mind killing it. If it's like me somehow (frogs' cute soft belly :LOL ) I do mind. But I am probably not enlightened, and have never really given this a lot of thought.

You know, I've stopped answering these stupid questions LONG AGO, or I should say, VALIDATING my "line" ... Yah, we mow our lawn. Yah, I swat masquitos. Yah, we eat vegtables (doy)... Our line is drawn by intelligent compassion...


----------



## mommytolittlelilly

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom*
I feel bad for the OP- like she is going to be watching every move this little boy makes- waiting for the next shoe to drop...

I do agree that _sometimes_ when a kid hurts animals it is because of problems at home, or due to deep seated emotional issues- but sometimes, it is just because the kid does not fully "get" what he is doing.


I don't think she absolutely must watch every move her son makes, but she could do that if she wants to. Really though, I don't think monitoring every little move he makes is, in itself, going to be that helpful for this boy in the long term. I'm of the opinion that watching every move he makes might even make things worse.

I think the fact that it's happened repeatedly, though, probably warrants mom and dad stepping back to take a look at the big picture to see what thing(s) might be troubling him.


----------



## Pynki

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
hmmmmmmmmm my ds is 26 months old. I am not saying that he "grasps" death or the likes, but he DOES understand pain. He knows that he cannot pick up or attempt to pick up the cat or the rabbit as it may hurt them. He knows that his feet are for walking and jumping and kicking balls (etc) and NEVER for hurting an animal or another human. He KNOWS this! He converses about it. He follows the rule... once he pulled the cats tail and got bit... ONCE! And he's never abused the other animals either. Or his friends lizard and turtle. He is VERY curious. He is VERY active. But he truly understands that! And, his best buddy is 4... and he isn't a frog squisher (or whatever) either! SO, are these exceptional little boys?

Here's an idea.. lets tone back the sarcasm.. You son may have learned not to hurt the animals because your cat bit him.. Pain is a great motivater.. Your son and his best buddy MAY be exceptional children.. But the children who do this AREN'T deviants either..

Different children learn mentally developmental things at different ages.. Just as with every other developmental stage..

And your implying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is at best condesending and at worst alienating to people who MAY have agreed with you if you could manage to present your views in a different way.

Warm Squishy Feelings..
Dyan


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chunklin'sMommy*
So I am curious... where do you (and other gentle mamas who don't like the idea of anything being killed - even bugs) draw the line that it is OK to kill things? .

For me personally I dont' condone the intentional killing of anything. I have taught my children to respect the trees and plants around us just as much as I have with animals. We don't pick flowers for fun, or squish bugs. Last year my front porch light was out all summer because a nest of hornets had moved in- I won't even kill those.
I will admit though, that I have always been WAY overly sensitive to those things. Seeing a kid carve letters into a tree breaks my heart as much as hearing the frog story. I've been that way since I was a kid








I have an almost impossible time recognizing the frog squishing thing as "normal kid behavior" I even get really, really upset if I see kids chasing ducks. I just think it's mean and can't wrap my mind around being the kid doing the chasing, and enjoying being mean. I just can't.
I do mow my lawn. However, I do it about once a month as opposed to twice a week as my neighbors do. Of course we don't do chem lawn, and I often have big patches of tall grass I leave if there a log or spider nest or something that is obviously a home to someone.
Like i said I think I'm abmormally sensitive, but I've always known that, and it's perfectly OK with me!


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

Different children learn mentally developmental things at different ages.. Just as with every other developmental stage..

Quote:

And your implying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is at best condesending and at worst alienating to people who MAY have agreed with you if you could manage to present your views in a different way.
Thank you Pynki. That is *EXACTLY* what I was so obviously ineptly trying to convey. That's all... man, I gotta learn how to say what I mean!


----------



## GranoLLLy-girl

I didn't read all of the responses, so if this has been brought up, just disregard my response.

To the OP--do you have family pets? I have found (in my limited experience) that kids who are brought up with pets do better around other animals because they have a chance to see that animals do some of the same things that we do (mammals or not)--like eat, sleep, etc. They also see how their parents interact and treat animals. They see good examples of behavior around living creatures when parents model feeding/grooming/caring for a pet.
We have an assortment of pets, and when my dd was a little toddler, she would try to pull the tails of the dogs (and was always redirected), but as she grew, she learned to respect them and help to care for them. She understands (even at 3) that they can be cold, hungry, or tired. If she sees the dog shaking (from a thunderstorm) she says: "He's scared." And she'll cover the dog with a blanket when this happens.

If you don't have a pet, why not get a pet frog? If that's out of the question, how about some really good books on frogs? Show your son how they live--how they eat and sleep. If you can't find a good book, maybe a stuffed frog that you name will have an impact. Give him a name, and a "personality". This might help him to make a connection.
Maybe there's a good DVD/video on frogs. Something to help him make a connection.

I would say that the first time he killed a frog, consider it a learning experience. The first time would give you a chance to talk about living creatures, God (if that fits your beliefs), empathy, etc., but after that, it would seem to be a problem.
And I don't know what _kind_ of a problem it would be called--but killing is a problem, especially when it happens repeatedly.

Best of luck to you, I am sure that this is troubling and stressful for your whole family.


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

Last year my front porch light was out all summer because a nest of hornets had moved in- I won't even kill those.
See, that's where I draw the line.

Those hornets (and I've been in a similar situation) could *seriously* harm my child.

You can't reason with stingers! :LOL

Myself - I know how to avoid a nest. But one split second, and my toddler could be the centre of a very deadly hornet attack.

I just couldn't risk that.


----------



## joesmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
frog, cat... what's the difference? Soft and fuzzy and NOT so much soft and fuzzy?









You missed my point- I said:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ME *
...not every toddler who kills the odd bug (or frog! ) is going to torture cats as he gets older...

I meant to say that because he killed a frog at four, we do not have to expect that by the time he is ten he will be torturing cats. Does that make more sense to you?

(Frankly, I am not a cat person, & it makes me just as sad to hear about frogs being hurt as it does to hear about cats being hurt.)


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
frog, cat... what's the difference? Soft and fuzzy and NOT so much soft and fuzzy?









You know, for ME and MY family this may have happend ONCE (may happen once) ... but it wouldn't happen again. I'm mostly shocked that this kid did it more than once?!?!? Sure, we'll give him the benefit of the doubt the first time around... but someone missed the bus to have this sort of thing happen more than once!







:

I am really getting quite offended by your comments. I wish this thread would be closed at this point.

I frankly don't think you are getting it, I've tried to express that I see where you are coming from as a parent of one single child. I assure you I haven't missed the bus. I hope in a few years if you ever have a situation with your child that someone does not talk so condescending and judgemental to you.

I will definitely think twice before ever asking a very specific parenting question in regards to my own children in this forum again.


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
Those hornets (and I've been in a similar situation) could *seriously* harm my child.

yeah, you're probably right. My kids and I all got used to it being there, and have not had an incident...


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom*
I feel bad for the OP- like she is going to be watching every move this little boy makes- waiting for the next shoe to drop...

I do agree that _sometimes_ when a kid hurts animals it is because of problems at home, or due to deep seated emotional issues- but sometimes, it is just because the kid does not fully "get" what he is doing.

I don't think my child killed a frog because of problems at home or deep seated emotional issues. As I said, he is micromanaged enough in other areas, probably when he really shouldn't be and I am not going to do anymore in that area than I have been.


----------



## Itlbokay

never mind


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven67*
OTF...why do you run over so many frogs?? I really don't understand that statement. I have frogs, squirells, birds, worms, snakes in my driveway, and I check before pulling out/in, to make sure nothing is in the way. The times I have run over roadkill (already dead) I feel kind of nauseous and sad. I think seeing your words about the frogs that you run over, and how you never care or give it a thought...puts this in a whole different light. It makes much more sense now. If you don't care at all when you run over a frog, why don't you want your son doing the same thing? I'm sure it's going to make it all the more difficult for you son to learn empathy for animals when there are so many exceptions around him.


I can't believe you just asked this. Like I am purposely mowing frogs over for entertainment. LMAO.
I live in an area that is near watershed and wetland. Frogs are everywhere. Tree frogs, hundreds of them are on our house each nice, other species of frogs and toads are out everywhere -- sidewalks, roads, driveways. Sorry, I am not going to be sweeping off my 2-3000 square feet of driveway everytime I go out of the house to use the car to spare frogs, crickets, worms or other things like that. So to me its unintentional killing. My son however did it with thought in mind, whether that be out of curiousity, etc. I want to add again, I don't see frogs the same way some of you do -- I definitely do not put them in the same bracket of birds, cats, or dogs.


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I will definitely think twice before ever asking a very specific parenting question in regards to my own children in this forum again.

I hope you don't let one persons negativity keep you from posting here. Overall you had a lot of support, leave the rest behind.


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommytolittlelilly*
I don't think she absolutely must watch every move her son makes, but she could do that if she wants to. Really though, I don't think monitoring every little move he makes is, in itself, going to be that helpful for this boy in the long term. I'm of the opinion that watching every move he makes might even make things worse.

I think the fact that it's happened repeatedly, though, probably warrants mom and dad stepping back to take a look at the big picture to see what thing(s) might be troubling him.

Did you read the OP, I said it has happened three times. Twice in the past several months, and once a year plus ago. He was only three the first time it happened. Good lord, why does something have to be troubling him or wrong with his psychology to do this or wrong with us?


----------



## mommytolittlelilly

Sorry - I didn't mean to offend! I remembered it was more than once, and I had the timing wrong. It was just a suggestion, and I'm really not trying to condemn you or your son....

I don't mean that there's something critically wrong with what you're doing or not doing, either. I was just thinking how when Lilly gets upset that I'm not around much during the day, she can start slapping and biting sometimes.


----------



## aran

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
Our line is drawn by intelligent compassion...











OK, then how 'bout some "intelligent compassion" for the OP, too?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
my front porch light was out all summer because a nest of hornets had moved in- I won't even kill those. ... Seeing a kid carve letters into a tree breaks my heart as much as hearing the frog story. I've been that way since I was a kid

I find myself in the weird position of agreeing with the tree thing, but would gladly kill the hornets (and other bugs)! At least you seem to have an internally consistent view, while I, for some reason, cannot!


----------



## darsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen*
Hey, kids are animals too. They deserve fresh air and sunshine just as much as any ant, frog, chicken, or pig.







:

This totally made my morning! :LOL


----------



## edamommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boongirl*

You know, I am not even slightly religious but I do think the golden rule is a good one: if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

eh? THis is regarding animal abuse... and no one should have something "nice" to say about that! Why is it so unPC to say it the way it is? Why do we have to coddle the op into thinking it's okeydokey to stomp on frogs...


----------



## edamommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Did you read the OP, I said it has happened three times. Twice in the past several months, and once a year plus ago. He was only three the first time it happened. Good lord, why does something have to be troubling him or wrong with his psychology to do this or wrong with us?


Knock knock knock HELLLLLOOOOOOOOOO... he's killing frogs!


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
eh? THis is regarding animal abuse... and no one should have something "nice" to say about that! Why is it so unPC to say it the way it is? Why do we have to coddle the op into thinking it's okeydokey to stomp on frogs...

I didn't see than anyone was "okey dokey" about stomping on frogs. Just that it isn't completly unusual for a 4 year old to do.
As someone who is very much an animal rights person, I know there is more than one way to get a point across. Being nasty usually isn't it.


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
eh? THis is regarding animal abuse... and no one should have something "nice" to say about that! Why is it so unPC to say it the way it is? Why do we have to coddle the op into thinking it's okeydokey to stomp on frogs...

Oy. A frog is not an animal -- at least not the last time I checked.

:::back to eating my hamburger:::


----------



## darsmama

Dear Lord,
How will I ever be able to eat a salad again?!?! Isn't lettuce just as alive as a tree?
and as Chucklin's Mommy wrote: It never ceases to amaze me that supposedly we are raising compassionate, loving, empathetic children when it seems that we can't even BEGIN to practice it ourselves. Its eye raising, really.


----------



## joesmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I don't think my child killed a frog because of problems at home or deep seated emotional issues. As I said, he is micromanaged enough in other areas, probably when he really shouldn't be and I am not going to do anymore in that area than I have been.


I don't think he did either, OTF. I feel like you must have misintrepreted what I posted- I meant it in SUPPORT of you & your son.


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chunklin'sMommy*
I find myself in the weird position of agreeing with the tree thing, but would gladly kill the hornets (and other bugs)! At least you seem to have an internally consistent view, while I, for some reason, cannot!

ya, until one of us ends up in the ER with some horrible hornet sting 'cause Mommy won't kill the freakin hornets! :LOL It'll probably be me..


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama*
Dear Lord,
How will I ever be able to eat a salad again?!?! Isn't lettuce just as alive as a tree?
and as Chucklin's Mommy wrote: It never ceases to amaze me that supposedly we are raising compassionate, loving, empathetic children when it seems that we can't even BEGIN to practice it ourselves. Its eye raising, really.

There was lettuce on my burger too!









Actually seeing the poster in question reminds me of my early years as a parent. Ah, can I just put a general apology out there to the world now -- frogive me.


----------



## darsmama

Edamommy, to be honest - I've noticed you the last month on animal rights posts and thought WOW, shes really a caring person! I was even going to look up old posts and look at Veganism more, but frankly - your PETA like tactics leave something to be desired! Nastiness is NOT the way to go. I'm passionate about circ, but I NEVER get rude with people to get my point across. It weakens the argument!


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom*
I don't think he did either, OTF. I feel like you must have misintrepreted what I posted- I meant it in SUPPORT of you & your son.









O, I definitely think you were writing in support, I just wanted to state one more time for the record. LOL


----------



## edamommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
I didn't see than anyone was "okey dokey" about stomping on frogs. Just that it isn't completly unusual for a 4 year old to do.
As someone who is very much an animal rights person, I know there is more than one way to get a point across. Being nasty usually isn't it.

I'm having a very hard time not being nasty about this. This child has done this 4 times. Not once. And the very idea that someone (or more than just a someone) would have the gall to use the "well plants feel pain too" schtick in supporting their rationalizing of the animal abuse just puts my panties in a wad, if you will. And it's really freaking me out that so many mamas are willing to overlook the seriousness of this issue (animal abuse) to "not cause waves" or to "not make the op feel bad" or whatever! And the very fact that so many mama's think it's not too strange for a child to have done this (not once, FOUR times) is also very very disturbing to me... it's a nasty subject.

Oh, and for those who are wondering... I've tried the "you catch more flies w/ honey" thing... and it's just now true! lol


----------



## edamommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama*
Edamommy, to be honest - I've noticed you the last month on animal rights posts and thought WOW, shes really a caring person! I was even going to look up old posts and look at Veganism more, but frankly - your PETA like tactics leave something to be desired! Nastiness is NOT the way to go. I'm passionate about circ, but I NEVER get rude with people to get my point across. It weakens the argument!

*sorry to let you down. GO ahead and skip my posts!







I am totally not intersted in supporting the idea that it's okay to kill frogs- repeatidly.


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama*
your PETA like tactics leave something to be desired! Nastiness is NOT the way to go. I'm passionate about circ, but I NEVER get rude with people to get my point across. It weakens the argument!

and makes it harder for many of us who would like to share our views in a more positive way.


----------



## darsmama

Ok, since we are so far off topic anyways; CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHY eating lettuce, carrots, etc. is NOT the same as eating a living thing (IE: frog legs)? Or is it the 'they aren't mammals' (so its ok to eat fish and frogs?) this is really driving me nuts. What about maggots, some people eat them - is that against veganism!?

Who drew the line, where!?

Just a quick explanation...please.


----------



## Itlbokay

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
And it's really freaking me out that so many mamas are willing to overlook the seriousness of this issue (animal abuse) to "not cause waves" or to "not make the op feel bad" or whatever!

I gave the OP support because one of my DS's did something similar to a frog when he was around the same age.

I am happy to report that now he is a very empathetic child - and a huge frog lover


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

Ah, can I just put a general apology out there to the world now -- frogive me.
:LOL "frogive me" - done!

edamommy, you've taken an interesting opportunity for growth and learning and turned it into something sour and hateful.

To OnTheFence - you sound like a caring and concerned mama, and guess what? One day you'll be able to look back on this and laugh.

And yeah, one last poke... I didn't know a frog was an animal either. Pass me the steak.


----------



## Pynki

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
I'm having a very hard time not being nasty about this. This child has done this 4 times. Not once. And the very idea that someone (or more than just a someone) would have the gall to use the "well plants feel pain too" schtick in supporting their rationalizing of the animal abuse just puts my panties in a wad, if you will. And it's really freaking me out that so many mamas are willing to overlook the seriousness of this issue (animal abuse) to "not cause waves" or to "not make the op feel bad" or whatever! And the very fact that so many mama's think it's not too strange for a child to have done this (not once, FOUR times) is also very very disturbing to me... it's a nasty subject.

Oh, and for those who are wondering... I've tried the "you catch more flies w/ honey" thing... and it's just now true! lol

NO ONE is condoning it.. We've said that we agree.. It's disturbing to see.. But that doesn't mean it's developementally inappropriate..

You OPINION on the matter is no better than anyone elses.. EVERYONE has the right to an opinion.. And implying we are all sick in the head for not agreeing with you isn't sitting well with most of us.


----------



## darsmama

Pm me even. I am not being snarky at all.


----------



## edamommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama*
Ok, since we are so far off topic anyways; CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHY eating lettuce, carrots, etc. is NOT the same as eating a living thing (IE: frog legs)? Or is it the 'they aren't mammals' (so its ok to eat fish and frogs?) this is really driving me nuts. What about maggots, some people eat them - is that against veganism!?

Who drew the line, where!?

Just a quick explanation...please.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.......... ahhh you slay me. If that needs to be explained (btw- I already mentioned that that comparison is so lame it doesn't deserve any sort of explanation... it comes out of carni's mouths a zillion times a day ... it's like an omni defense or something. teeehee) to you then ... phew... come on now.


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

Who drew the line, where!?
I don't think there is one necessarily. I think it's up to an individual...

Some posters are questioning it because one pp is calling the scenario "animal abuse".

With all the serious cases of animal abuse out there, I'd hardly call an exuberant (and okay, misguided by his own intentions) four year old stomping frogs *abuse*.

And again - yeah, it's not nice to stomp frogs and the op is looking for ways to help curb the behaviour, help her four year old know better.

It's just that some people are being wayyyy over zealous in their beliefs.

The op was looking for support and help, not a condemnation.


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
I'm having a very hard time not being nasty about this. This child has done this 4 times. Not once. And the very idea that someone (or more than just a someone) would have the gall to use the "well plants feel pain too" schtick in supporting their rationalizing of the animal abuse just puts my panties in a wad, if you will. And it's really freaking me out that so many mamas are willing to overlook the seriousness of this issue (animal abuse) to "not cause waves" or to "not make the op feel bad" or whatever! And the very fact that so many mama's think it's not too strange for a child to have done this (not once, FOUR times) is also very very disturbing to me... it's a nasty subject.

Oh, and for those who are wondering... I've tried the "you catch more flies w/ honey" thing... and it's just now true! lol

Three times. Lets be accurate, shall we?

I believe you are being quite arrogant in your assumptions about children, especially my child. I have a background in sociology and anthropology and animal killing by children is not anything new -- in fact it was part of survival. I've talked to several professional at this point, and they don't seem to be alarmed and put this behavior (even it happening three times over a cours of more than a year) as normal childhood behavior. However, I still do not want my child doing it. I want him to internally know not to do it, not be micro-managed not to do it, not be restricted from playing out doors not do it. I also don't want him having the beliefs you do, because we are meat eaters. No PETA for us thank ya very much. Its not that I think your beliefs are wrong, but different, and we have made a choice to eat meat, and value animals, amphibians, and insects differently.


----------



## darsmama

I'm just stumped.

I've heard that stinging nettles won't sting you (sometimes) if you ask permission to pick them.

Kinda weird.


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama*
Ok, since we are so far off topic anyways; CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHY eating lettuce, carrots, etc. is NOT the same as eating a living thing (IE: frog legs)? Or is it the 'they aren't mammals' (so its ok to eat fish and frogs?) this is really driving me nuts. What about maggots, some people eat them - is that against veganism!?

Who drew the line, where!?

Just a quick explanation...please.

Well, honestly I couldn't answer you as to why I feel differently about lettuce and carrott. Yes they are living, important things. But they are not alive with a heart and a brain etc...It does seem different to me. I don't mind being called a hypocrite if you think that's truely hipocritical. I actually really don't see a parallel from a cow to a carrott. But I also don't eat frog legs or fish. I also try to eat organic veggies, since one of the reasons I don't eat meat is the damage to our earth from it's production.
Oh..and I don't eat maggots either


----------



## Pynki

You know Edamommy..

Dar REALLY is genually SEEKING knowledge you have.. Perhaps rather than belittling her you could PM her LIKE SHE ASKED YOU TO.. So she could FURTHER HER UNDERSTANDING of your view!!!


----------



## darsmama

I guess I'm as ignoranus as I look...


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Itlbokay*
I gave the OP support because one of my DS's did something similar to a frog when he was around the same age.

I am happy to report that now he is a very empathetic child - and a huge frog lover









My son, as I have said is very empathetic. Maybe not to frogs tho.









I am not having this problem with humans or pets, just frogs. (I frankly dont care about bugs)

We should have a frog smilie.







:


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
:LOL "frogive me" - done!


OMG, I just saw that. I swear that was a typo! :LOL







:


----------



## Ceinwen

It's never ignorant to ask genuine questions.


----------



## darsmama

Sorry, we x posted...

Hmm..Thanks for a brief explanation CMB. Perhaps it is like religion...Dosen't make sense to everyone.


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

OMG, I just saw that. I swear that was a typo!
It was the best typo I've seen in awhile; and there's been some funny ones! :LOL


----------



## joesmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
O, I definitely think you were writing in support, I just wanted to state one more time for the record. LOL

















Good! Just makin' sure!


----------



## darsmama

Someone should dddc OTF : Frogive Me


----------



## Itlbokay

I have a $2.50 credit, let me


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama*
Perhaps it is like religion...Dosen't make sense to everyone.

Hey! Maybe we could start debating that here now too!! That always goes over just as well as the veggie conversations! :LOL


----------



## Foobar

OTF:

I understand your frustration here.

While most of the moms here are not condoning your son's actions, we aren't condeming them either. I understand that it is hard to teach a child what we just "know" is right and wrong.

The other night, Goo ripped a branch off of Jake- our favorite plant in the house. All I can say is that you have to ignore those who are trying to make you out as the bad guy and listen to the advice of those who are trying to help!


----------



## darsmama

Ok, Itlbokay - You are blessed with the right. :LOL


----------



## Oh the Irony

hey all, i read 4 pages and that was about all i could take....so excuse me if this is out in left field.

OntheFence, I think you have gotten some great suggestions.
I loved: reading books about frogs, showing your empathy--hopefully it won't happen again, but if it did, then maybe having a burial...maybe a stuffed frog or small animal. no pet yet.

*I* would also probably say firmly that we don't hurt our animal friends. Once.

I would think over-supervision or punishment at this point would do more harm and escalate the problem.








I think he will be fine.

I don't know enough about bi-polar to address from that end. But since he is seeing someone I'm sure you can get more tips--sorry if i missed that part.


----------



## Raven67

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama*
I guess I'm as ignoranus as I look...










That's for you to determine, god forbid anyone should judge anyone else here. Vegans don't eat animals because of they are "sentient" beings, meaning they have feelings, physical and emotional. They suffer from cruelty and and try to avoid pain....many animals also have an awareness of their impending deaths, as you can see when you try to kill them and they try desperately to escape. There is no reliable evidence that plants share these qualities, in any meaningful way. People usually throw the plant thing out there, not because they care about plants and suffering, but to try to take the focus off of the torture and killing of animals. Vegans just don't want to be any part of the deliberate and avoidable killing/harming of animals...of course, there are animals killed incidentally, like when we mow the grass...but, that doesn't excuse the intential infliction of harm and killing. Just because one cannot reduce or eliminate all animal suffering in the world doesn't mean one shouldn't eliminate as much as possible. I have so much respect for vegans....I am veg, and trying to move toward veganism myself...Just because I am not there yet, doesn't mean I can't understand and respect the position.

OP: Why do you think amphibians aren't animals?? We are all in the animal kingdom: humans, monkeys, dogs, frogs, grasshoppers...(amphibians, insects, mammals are all subdivisions within the kingdom)


----------



## Yooper

I wasn't going to post here....but ya'll sucked me in









First, frogs are animals. Not sure if that was suppose to be a joke or sarcastic, but frog = animal.

Second, while killing frogs is not cool, not something I do or support, and can be indicative of a problem IF it continued past the age of empathy, I think a 4 year old boy is not thinking "yippee, I love to torture animals....then maybe people later....". I do not think the OP's ds has a serious problem or anything. I second the idea of getting him a pet frog or some good books/videos about frogs to help him understand that frogs do not like being squished. While it is very upsetting for me to hear about a little boy killing frogs, frankly it is no different than eating a hamburger in my book (actually better since the frog at least had a normal life before being killed). So I could get all huffy about it, but then I would have no friends.

Third, you can tell from my username that I am a vegan so I feel qualified to answer the "why is it OK to kill plants" question. Plants are not sentinent beings. They do not feel pain, they have no social behaviors, etc.... Of course I also do not think killing plants just for fun is OK either. So point A - Killing anything for no reason = bad. Obviously all creatures need to eat, humans included. We have choices about what we eat. While I believe humans were meant to eat meat, we were not meant to tinker with nature OR make animals live terrible lives just so we can eat burgers. Therefore point B - We have a choice and I choose to avoid torturing sentinent beings whenever possble. There are environmental aspects too in that plant based diets tax the land less than meat based diets. People write entire volumes on this subject so I will stop now. But that is the reason I feel there is a differnece between plants and animals.

Fourth, I know you all are fired up and it is really fun to pick-on-the-vegans, especially when one is being a little too militant on the issue, but making jokes about eating burgers is offensive to me. Stating that you like meat or mentioning burgers, or posting meat recipes is not offensive, but I find nothing funny about poking fun at someone's beliefs by mentioning something that is actually quite graphic to me.


----------



## Oh the Irony

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
We should have a frog smilie.







:

NEMMER!!! This would be great.


----------



## Oh the Irony

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
eh? THis is regarding animal abuse... and no one should have something "nice" to say about that! Why is it so unPC to say it the way it is? Why do we have to coddle the op into thinking it's okeydokey to stomp on frogs...

the op did not think it was okay at all. she made that pretty clear.


----------



## spero

OTF - just wanted to give you a







and my support & understanding.
I had a little brother







... 'nuff said.

"frogive me" just about had me peeing my pants!







:
Little Freudian slip, there?


----------



## edamommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven67*
That's for you to determine, god forbid anyone should judge anyone else here. Vegans don't eat animals because of they are "sentient" beings, meaning they have feelings, physical and emotional. They suffer from cruelty and and try to avoid pain....many animals also have an awareness of their impending deaths, as you can see when you try to kill them and they try desperately to escape. There is no reliable evidence that plants share these qualities, in any meaningful way. People usually throw the plant thing out there, not because they care about plants and suffering, but to try to take the focus off of the torture and killing of animals. Vegans just don't want to be any part of the deliberate and avoidable killing/harming of animals...of course, there are animals killed incidentally, like when we mow the grass...but, that doesn't excuse the intential infliction of harm and killing. Just because one cannot reduce or eliminate all animal suffering in the world doesn't mean one shouldn't eliminate as much as possible. I have so much respect for vegans....I am veg, and trying to move toward veganism myself...Just because I am not there yet, doesn't mean I can't understand and respect the position.

OP: Why do you think amphibians aren't animals?? We are all in the animal kingdom: humans, monkeys, dogs, frogs, grasshoppers...(amphibians, insects, mammals are all subdivisions within the kingdom)


**oh mama, thank you for being able to express yourself so intelligently and with such a levelhead.







Believe it or not... that's just what I wanted to say. Unfortunatly I'm a hothead..







Again, wonderful post.







:


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

"yippee, I love to torture animals....then maybe people later....".










I just seriously sprayed Coke out my nose!

ETA: I mean that in a nice way, it was really funny. But only if you meant it that way - ack!







:


----------



## edamommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
I wasn't going to post here....but ya'll sucked me in









First, frogs are animals. Not sure if that was suppose to be a joke or sarcastic, but frog = animal.

Second, while killing frogs is not cool, not something I do or support, and can be indicative of a problem IF it continued past the age of empathy, I think a 4 year old boy is not thinking "yippee, I love to torture animals....then maybe people later....". I do not think the OP's ds has a serious problem or anything. I second the idea of getting him a pet frog or some good books/videos about frogs to help him understand that frogs do not like being squished. While it is very upsetting for me to hear about a little boy killing frogs, frankly it is no different than eating a hamburger in my book (actually better since the frog at least had a normal life before being killed). So I could get all huffy about it, but then I would have no friends.

Third, you can tell from my username that I am a vegan so I feel qualified to answer the "why is it OK to kill plants" question. Plants are not sentinent beings. They do not feel pain, they have no social behaviors, etc.... Of course I also do not think killing plants just for fun is OK either. So point A - Killing anything for no reason = bad. Obviously all creatures need to eat, humans included. We have choices about what we eat. While I believe humans were meant to eat meat, we were not meant to tinker with nature OR make animals live terrible lives just so we can eat burgers. Therefore point B - We have a choice and I choose to avoid torturing sentinent beings whenever possble. There are environmental aspects too in that plant based diets tax the land less than meat based diets. People write entire volumes on this subject so I will stop now. But that is the reason I feel there is a differnece between plants and animals.

Fourth, I know you all are fired up and it is really fun to pick-on-the-vegans, especially when one is being a little too militant on the issue, but making jokes about eating burgers is offensive to me. Stating that you like meat or mentioning burgers, or posting meat recipes is not offensive, but I find nothing funny about poking fun at someone's beliefs by mentioning something that is actually quite graphic to me.

**to you also mama...thanks for posting in such a bright and efficiant manner. I apalogize to all vegetarians for my "militant" posts (here's a funny- I've been "punished" on many a vegetarian board for my "militant" breastfeeding posts... and cosleeping...lol) I tend to "yell" on message boards instead of just ignoring the conversation, or talking nicely, both of which I would choose to do in "real life" conversations.


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

Fourth, I know you all are fired up and it is really fun to pick-on-the-vegans, especially when one is being a little too militant on the issue, but making jokes about eating burgers is offensive to me. Stating that you like meat or mentioning burgers, or posting meat recipes is not offensive, but I find nothing funny about poking fun at someone's beliefs by mentioning something that is actually quite graphic to me.
Um, tough?









edamommy's absolute rudeness to the op was also "not funny" and "offensive" but nobody else here is crying.

Besides that, the thread had nothing to do with vegan vs meat eater. The pp brought that up herself.


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
Besides that, the thread had nothing to do with vegan vs meat eater. The pp brought that up herself.

Yes, but if the "offender" was of a certain religion or race, would you start making digs at everyone of that race/religion? I doubt it..or at least I hope not.


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
Um, tough?









And that just seems mean. That poster had a very nice post and simply stated her feelings were hurt. jeez


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

Yes, but if the "offender" was of a certain religion or race, would you start making digs at everyone of that race/religion? I doubt it..or at least I hope not.
The two aren't even remotely comparable.

Me suggesting that I am heartily enjoying a burger, whether or not distresses someone else - is not the same as racism.

Nice try though.


----------



## Raven67

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
**oh mama, thank you for being able to express yourself so intelligently and with such a levelhead.







Believe it or not... that's just what I wanted to say. Unfortunatly I'm a hothead..







Again, wonderful post.







:

Edamama...I get what you have been trying to say in this thread...I don't think you are over-the-top at all. I see no reason to condone animal abuse at all, either, just because it's not what some posters want to hear. Minimizing animal abuse is a form of condoning it. It is evident that some of what is happening on this thread is clouded by "it's just a frog!!!" thinking. Of course this child thinks it's ok to stomp frogs, because it certainly seems to be on some level. Anyway, I feel your pain here. All you can do is "put it out there" and hope some of it sticks. It must strike a nerve, or people wouldn't get so defensive.


----------



## darsmama

Well, personally I am sorry I offended anyone. Even Edamommy. OTF is a nice gal though, and I didn't appreciate the rudeness.
The whole plant thing, I think I understand a little more. Some of it dosen't make a LOT of sense IE: the stinging nettle incident - how can you reason with a plant and have it not sting you if it isn't alive? I'm not sure what is meant by social behavior and what, if anything that would have to do with the fact something is alive.

The plant extreme, if you will, makes as much sense to me as saying frogs are alive and have feelings. Frogs and plants I really place on the same level! So, Yes - I appreciate lettuce and tomatoes just as I appreciate frogs.

Anyways, Thank you for responding in a serious manner.


----------



## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama*
Ok, since we are so far off topic anyways; CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHY eating lettuce, carrots, etc. is NOT the same as eating a living thing (IE: frog legs)? Or is it the 'they aren't mammals' (so its ok to eat fish and frogs?) this is really driving me nuts. What about maggots, some people eat them - is that against veganism!?

Who drew the line, where!?

Just a quick explanation...please.

I've been lurking this thread, and this question keeps making me scratch my head....I didn't know that people were confused about eating vegetables....

Ok, I'll try my personal understanding:
Everything is either animal, vegetable, or mineral, pretty much. If it isn't vegetation or a mineral (rocks, dirt), it is an animal--even if it is bacteria or a maggot. Frogs certainly are animals (yummy ones at that







).

Vegans do not eat animals or use animal products at all. To the point that many will not eat honey, because it is made by bees. Bees are animals, as are all insects. And amphibians, and reptiles, and avians, and mammals.....

Produce is not an animal. The name "VEGan" implies that vegans eat vegetative products--not animal products. There is no cruelty in eating plant products. In fact, most plants benefit from having their fruits harvested or their growth pruned. It can be a symbiotic relationship for humans to eat plants (benefits plant and human), but it is a predatory relationship when humans eat/use animals.

To the op...your boy is exploring and learning. Try not to worry, but focus on teaching. If it happens again, or threatens to, respond with empathy for the frog. Let ds see how much you care for the frog, and, in fact, all of nature's creatures. In our home, we sometimes eat fish, but we are honest about how a fish needed to give it's life for us to eat, and we are grateful for it. We honor the fish







. Model care for nature's creatures, and he will catch on. Personally, I would not punish the behavior, because I would want him to appreciate the natural consequences of the action: a dead or frightened frog, and a distraught mama. Your boy has a good heart, and he will learn from your good example







.


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

And that just seems mean.
I've had more than several "mean" sentiments directed at me in this thread, and no one's come to my defence.







:

I was merely sharing that I thought the fact that my burger munching distressed her was irrelevant to the topic and starting to veer wayyyyy off course.


----------



## Mom4tot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skellbelle*
OTF - just wanted to give you a







and my support & understanding.
I had a little brother







... 'nuff said.

"frogive me" just about had me peeing my pants!







:
Little Freudian slip, there?










Oh, Skell, I hadn't noticed that! :LOL







:

I just can't comment on all of this just now.


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

Your boy has a good heart, and he will learn from your good example
Agreed.


----------



## aran

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven67*
Vegans don't eat animals because of they are "sentient" beings, meaning they have feelings, physical and emotional. They suffer from cruelty and and try to avoid pain....many animals also have an awareness of their impending deaths, as you can see when you try to kill them and they try desperately to escape. There is no reliable evidence that plants share these qualities, in any meaningful way. People usually throw the plant thing out there, not because they care about plants and suffering, but to try to take the focus off of the torture and killing of animals. Vegans just don't want to be any part of the deliberate and avoidable killing/harming of animals...of course, there are animals killed incidentally, like when we mow the grass...but, that doesn't excuse the intential infliction of harm and killing. Just because one cannot reduce or eliminate all animal suffering in the world doesn't mean one shouldn't eliminate as much as possible.

OT. I asked about plants because I spent 6 years growing them and studying them in graduate school, and started to wonder why, just because they are apparently not sentient or social, their lives are devalued. Somewhere along the line, I started to like plants and appreciate their amazing qualities more than some animals. (That seems weird to me when I write it... but it's just how I feel). That's why I asked about this - not to take the focus off the suffering of animals, which is not something I condone. Also, I see mowing the lawn as an avoidable infliction of harm, since it is for aesthetics only. Just goes to show the wide range of opinions here. Didn't mean to change the topic to plants vs. animals.


----------



## darsmama

Sunamama, Thank you









By george I think I got the understanding,


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
I was merely sharing that I thought the fact that my burger munching distressed her was irrelevant to the topic and starting to veer wayyyyy off course.


OOhhh 'cause the burger munching was ON topic.

Again, just because one person is being argumentative, i don't think it's fair to start trashing people who are being nice just becuase they happen to be vegan too or whatever.


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

Again, just because one person is being argumentative, i don't think it's fair to start trashing people who are being nice just becuase they happen to be vegan too or whatever.
I vehemently deny trashing anyone.

And I'm still soooo not sorry for the burger comment.


----------



## darsmama

I love plants too Chuck. I think they are awesome and I am way in awe of them! Yes, way more than animals in some ways. I can't think of the last time an animal cured an ailment (I guess there is Botox hehe), but I can think of HUNDREDS of plants that can cure ailments.


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
The two aren't even remotely comparable.

Nice try though.









When it's being said specifically to hurt someone ( and it was being said just to offend the vegans) it is. It's not like you were casually mentioning your lunch- it was a dig.

To many people (including myself) being vegan is a huge part of their spirituality.


----------



## darsmama

Thanks to this and a few other threads, my buttocks have now "OFFICIALLY" taken the shape of the chair I am sitting in.


----------



## Yooper

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
Um, tough?









edamommy's absolute rudeness to the op was also "not funny" and "offensive" but nobody else here is crying.

Besides that, the thread had nothing to do with vegan vs meat eater. The pp brought that up herself.

I agree EM's posts were not funny. But yes there was "crying" about it.

Two wrongs do not make a right....on topic or off, if you are going to be mean spirited about eating burgers, just know you are offending more than just your intended target.

I am steaming about your apparent lack of empathy for someone that might be a little more sensitive than you about animal killing (and your flipping burger IS killing BTW). I never said do not eat meat. I never said do not mention meat. But to rub it in the face of someone that YOU KNOW is sensitive to it it just mean. And even worse to just blow it off as "tough" after I tried to come in here and point out both sides in a gentle manner.


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

To many people (including myself) being vegan is a huge part of their spirituality.
So just because it's part of your spirituality, I have to tiptoe around you and be respectful even if I disagree.

Sounds like the religious circ debate to me.

Very similar...

If I can't make people agree with me, blame it on my religion. That'll make them shut up.

And I'm sorry if







is trashing people. I was trying to convey my disgust.


----------



## Raven67

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
When it's being said specifically to hurt someone ( and it was being said just to offend the vegans) it is. It's not like you were casually mentioning your lunch- it was a dig.

To many people (including myself) being vegan is a huge part of their spirituality.

Here, here! It is a dig on spiritual beliefs, AHISMA=striving for harmlessness. Sadly, it is commonly accepted that vegan-bashing is tolerated and funny. All we can do is point it out, like you are doing so graciously.


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

But to rub it in the face of someone that YOU KNOW is sensitive to it it just mean.
Again, all I can say is - so?

Lots of what's been said here has seemed "mean" to me! I'm not asking for any apologies or for people to lighten their stance. I'm merely defending mine...

And again - if eating my burger offends you, don't look! :LOL


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
If I can't make people agree with me, blame it on my religion. That'll make them shut up.
.

Is that truely what you read from my comment? I not once in any of my posts here have suggested that anyone "agree" with me. I personally have not even been argumentive. That's why I'm saying that it's not fair to pick on ALL of us just becuase ONE person was being nasty.

Tiptoe around me? Heck no! Be respectful YES>


----------



## Yooper

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
I vehemently deny trashing anyone.

And I'm still soooo not sorry for the burger comment.











To state over and over that you are not sorry for intentionally offending anyone that finds eating animals graphic and not-funny for whatever reason is just sad. Sorry you have so much hatred.


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

Sadly, it is commonly accepted that vegan-bashing is tolerated and funny.
What about "meat eating" bashing? That seems to be okay to you guys. What if eating meat was important to my spirituality? Would that make it okay to you?

I don't see the difference.


----------



## Foobar

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*

Third, you can tell from my username that I am a vegan so I feel qualified to answer the "why is it OK to kill plants" question. Plants are not sentinent beings. They do not feel pain, they have no social behaviors, etc.... Of course I also do not think killing plants just for fun is OK either. So point A - Killing anything for no reason = bad. Obviously all creatures need to eat, humans included. We have choices about what we eat. While I believe humans were meant to eat meat, we were not meant to tinker with nature OR make animals live terrible lives just so we can eat burgers. Therefore point B - We have a choice and I choose to avoid torturing sentinent beings whenever possble. There are environmental aspects too in that plant based diets tax the land less than meat based diets. People write entire volumes on this subject so I will stop now. But that is the reason I feel there is a differnece between plants and animals.

Fourth, I know you all are fired up and it is really fun to pick-on-the-vegans, especially when one is being a little too militant on the issue, but making jokes about eating burgers is offensive to me. Stating that you like meat or mentioning burgers, or posting meat recipes is not offensive, but I find nothing funny about poking fun at someone's beliefs by mentioning something that is actually quite graphic to me.










Thanks for the explaination. I really have wondered this when I have read that plants do react to an animal being hurt or another plant being pruned...
Anyway, I hope you don't think by ASKING about this is not "pick-on-the-vegans", some people really are curious...


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
What about "meat eating" bashing? That seems to be okay to you guys. What if eating meat was important to my spirituality? Would that make it okay to you?

I don't see the difference.

Please quote me where I have bashed your meat eating... That's simply not my style-ever.


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

Is that truely what you read from my comment?
110% yes.

It sounds like you are using your spirituality as a crutch.

And I don't appreciate the "hatred" comment.

That's a strong word, considering the fact that the op was so belittled and looked down upon.

I consider that hatred.

I'm only calling certain posters to task on what they're claiming.

I "still" don't feel bad about the meat eating comments guys! I can't believe that what was said to the op about animal abuse, and watching her little one "closely" is okay - but my remark wasn't.


----------



## Yooper

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
What about "meat eating" bashing? That seems to be okay to you guys. What if eating meat was important to my spirituality? Would that make it okay to you?

I don't see the difference.

Where is the meat bashing? I thought I only saw frog-squishing bashing.

I am not asking you to tiptoe around people's known or unknown beliefs, but you knew full well that the burger comment was going to be offensive to Edamommy. Yes, she was harsh. But you fail to realize that many veg*ns are reading and you are intentionally offending people who have been respectful to you in your attempt to "get back" at EM.


----------



## Yooper

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*








Thanks for the explaination. I really have wondered this when I have read that plants do react to an animal being hurt or another plant being pruned...
Anyway, I hope you don't think by ASKING about this is not "pick-on-the-vegans", some people really are curious...

Nope, I did not think asking was bashing. I am glad it helped


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

I am not asking you to tiptoe around people's known or unknown beliefs, but you knew full well that the burger comment was going to be offensive to Edamommy. Yes, she was harsh. But you fail to realize that many veg*ns are reading and you are intentionally offending people who have been respectful to you in your attempt to "get back" at EM.
You.can.not.be.serious.

You are condoning the radical, hateful comments of one pp and telling me I need to be more respectful with my posts because I am "unintentionally" offending others?

And trust me, I was not *getting back* at ANYONE. That is so junior high. I was making a "joke" - as in ha ha?

Guess what? I wasn't the only one laughing, or making a joke. Feel free to go back and attack someone else. Or am I an easier target because I'm arguing back?


----------



## Yooper

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
110% yes.

It sounds like you are using your spirituality as a crutch.

And I don't appreciate the "hatred" comment.

That's a strong word, considering the fact that the op was so belittled and looked down upon.

I consider that hatred.

I'm only calling certain posters to task on what they're claiming.

I "still" don't feel bad about the meat eating comments guys! I can't believe that what was said to the op about animal abuse, and watching her little one "closely" is okay - but my remark wasn't.

What is hatred? I see someone that made a comment to intentionally offend people in a snarky way. Comment offended several people that have been respectful. People mentioned this. Comment maker seems to think it is totally fine to make people feel bad because they do not believe the same thing she does. Sounds like hatred to me.


----------



## Yooper

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
You.can.not.be.serious.

You are condoning the radical, hateful comments of one pp and telling me I need to be more respectful with my posts because I am "unintentionally" offending others?

And trust me, I was not *getting back* at ANYONE. That is so junior high. I was making a "joke" - as in ha ha?

Guess what? I wasn't the only one laughing, or making a joke. Feel free to go back and attack someone else. Or am I an easier target because I'm arguing back?

Ummmm....I called EM on it too. She has stated that she was over-militant. I agree. I do not condone the behavior on either side.

And I did not pick YOU out specifically about the burger comments. You happened to be the one to write back that you thought it was "tough" that the known-to-be-offensive burger comments were stated.


----------



## Foobar

HELLO????
GUYS, can we PLEASE get back on topic???

Frogs and children's unpredictable behavior?
Remember that?

Not veggie saurus vs meaty saurus.....

THANKS!


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

I see someone that made a comment to intentionally offend people in a snarky way.
Ummm, lots of other comments were made to intentionally offend people in a "snarky" way.

I don't see you calling them hateful.

And again - I reserve the word "hate" for something fairly serious. By me not taking your veganism as seriously as you do is hardly hateful.

I argue CIO (no CIO here) with friends who desperately believe in it - I would *never* call them hateful.


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

HELLO????
Sorry.
















Back to the regular programming...

We were getting into it - totally inappropriate for the op and everyone else invested in the original conversation.

That last like, three pages should have been a pm.







:


----------



## Yooper

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
Ummm, lots of other comments were made to intentionally offend people in a "snarky" way.

I don't see you calling them hateful.

And again - I reserve the word "hate" for something fairly serious. By me not taking your veganism as seriously as you do is hardly hateful.

I argue CIO (no CIO here) with friends who desperately believe in it - I would *never* call them hateful.

I do not consider it hateful to not take veganism seriously if you do not believe in it. I do consider it hateful to intentionally be offensive to a group of people then refuse to see why it might be offensive.

I do not know you, I am sure you are not a hateful person. I am sure EM is not hateful. But comments have gone back and forth that are HURTFUL. EM acknowledged her hurtful comments. You OTOH refuse to see it.


----------



## Yooper

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
Sorry.
















Back to the regular programming...

We were getting into it - totally inappropriate for the op and everyone else invested in the original conversation.

That last like, three pages should have been a pm.







:

I agree.

Digs stop now.

Sorry


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
You are condoning the radical, hateful comments of one pp and telling me I need to be more respectful with my posts because I am "unintentionally" offending others?


This might be where the misunderstanding is. If you read any of what I actually wrote- I was not condoning her at all. In fact just the opposite.


----------



## Ceinwen

Quote:

I do not know you, I am sure you are not a hateful person. I am sure EM is not hateful. But comments have gone back and forth that are HURTFUL. EM acknowledged her hurtful comments. You OTOH refuse to see it.
Just before I go, I would like to sincerely say that I am *very* sorry if my comments were hurtful to people that choose veganism.

It was not my intention to be mean about not eating meat. I have dabbled with the idea myself, and was more getting into the spirit of the argument, as opposed to really thinking about what I was saying.

Sorry guys.


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
It sounds like you are using your spirituality as a crutch.

And I don't appreciate the "hatred" comment.

.

Where did I make a hatred comment? Why do you keep putting words in my mouth?


----------



## darsmama

Did anyone else have a crush on Kermit as a kid?


----------



## cynthia mosher

This thread is reopened for discussion. PLEASE do not post in a sarcastic or flippant manner or in a way to take personal issue with an individual member. Personal disagreements and words should go to PM. Inappropriate posting can be reported.

Please focus your posting on the topic. Disagree with respect and civil discussion. Members who post otherwise will be warned.

Peace mamas.


----------



## mamakay

The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the squished frogs in the driveway are a big part of this.
(And I'm so glad this thread is back! I've kinda been dwelling on this subject since the thread disappeared).
This little boy is seeing frogs in two very different states...the hopping around state, and the flattened in the driveway state.
He knows there's a transition between the two, and it does seem like running over the frog with his car it too dead-on symbolic play to be coincidence.
I really think you're going to have to give the frogs in the driveway a funeral to end this behavior immediately. Also, you're going to have to act sad. Beyond that, try to really be at least a _little_ sad for these unfortunate frogs.
The story about the baby frogs missing their daddy frog would work well, but it's kind of a lie, as I don't think tadpoles really learn from their parents.
I don't know how you feel about lieing to kids to get a point across, but I'm usually opposed to it.
I think it's important that you explain that it hurts the frogs really, really bad when they get squished by your car, and it hurts when he squishes them.
As long as he gets the message that the frogs in the driveway don't matter, he's not going to "get it" that frogs have feelings and hurting them is wrong.

This issue is so complex, and really does open up a can of worms in regards to vegetarianism, etc. In fostering empathy for critters both big and small, you might very well be creating a future vegan.

Random thought, kinda off topic...Does anyone here remember that episode of the Andy Griffith Show...I think it was one of the first ones (maybe the first one ever?)...where Opey kills a bird with his BB gun?
He was, I think, 5 or 6ish. Very sad. I never thought of Opey as an animal abuser who needed to be in therapy and might grow up to commit acts of cannabilism...just a little kid who made a very bad, very sad mistake.

Sorry for the lack of cohesion in this post..lol...I've been thinking a lot about this for a few days.

Edited to add link:
http://www.tvacres.com/birds_backyard.htm
Opps. It was a slingshot, not a BB gun. Taking this post even farther OT (sorry)...I can help but notice that, for a show back in the day when physical punishment was the rule, this episode was also a perfect example of the power of natural consequences and gentle guidence.














:


----------



## TigerTail

wow, i've only had a chance to get to page 4, but did want to chime in.

my boys don't wantonly kill for the sake of killing (2 & 4), but they do know there is a bounty on flour moths, flies, mosquitos (i handle mice/rats.) yes, we eat meat. no, i don't think there is some hopeless contridiction between telling them not to hurt the worms & eating meat. life is from death. without getting into the whole vegetarian argument (bless the jainists for being consistant), when i move the straw pile for the garden, nests of mice die. raccoons get caught in the baler. minimizing unnecessary suffering (which sometimes, unpleasantly enough, is rescuing an injured animal & having the gonads to end its suffering) is all i can do.

life is messy, complicated, involves suffering. (and for the record, my toddler boys are the ones asking the neighbor girl to please release lightening bugs from the jar & stop molesting the butterflies. and hold the cat gently, just because it is too well-mannered to defend itself is no reason to drag it about. a 2 yr old can figure that out.)

good luck op; i don't think it's horribly unnatural (as someone who has removed the legs from a junebug to see it spin on its side), but i would be saddened & communicate that to my son. when you know better, you do better.

suse


----------



## nicole lisa

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamakay*
The story about the baby frogs missing their daddy frog would work well, but it's kind of a lie, as I don't think tadpoles really learn from their parents.
I don't know how you feel about lieing to kids to get a point across, but I'm usually opposed to it.

I've been thinking about this thread alot, and was kinda sad it was shut down before I could word my response, but it was basically going to be the above quote.

For me, it's important I teach my son biology and empathy and about the world in an accurate way so I wouldn't go the way of the daddy or mommy frog missing the baby frog. Frog's don't have families.

But I would talk about the frog as a living thing with the ability to feel pain. We just adopted a cat a week ago and DS (4.5), never having had a pet before, is learning how to be loving and playful while gentle with something other than human. We've been talking a lot about bullying around here (he's had some experience with being on the receiving end of that recently) and so use the concept of bullying when talking about the cat, or worms after a rain etc. DS seems to be getting this (fingers crossed). We've drawn a comparison between the way another boy has been treating him and the way he can follow the cat, not giving it space, tugging it's tail, hugging it too tightly etc and that just like G. is a bully sometimes, DS is being a bully to the cat or worms etc. This is curbing the behaviours.

Just an idea.


----------



## mountain

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
Produce is not an animal. The name "VEGan" implies that vegans eat vegetative products--not animal products. There is no cruelty in eating plant products. In fact, most plants benefit from having their fruits harvested or their growth pruned. It can be a symbiotic relationship for humans to eat plants (benefits plant and human), but it is a predatory relationship when humans eat/use animals.

I







you sunmama. Symbiotic, not destructive. Exactly.

I cannot believe pple cannot differentiate b/t a frog and a plant, come on now...rationalize much?

Edamommy, your heart was in it, but I still feel like ya turn pple off on the approach...Not just you, but dar & the hamburger thing







Disrespectful.

I just wanted to comment on OTF the "micromanage" comment...was a bit strange. I'd think you'd want to be by dc's while they explore the world...Just today, my dd let a bug crawl on her, she giggled so hard. She wanted it to get off after a bit, and was going to smash it down, when I stopped her and showed her how to gently return the bug.

My my dd is 2, ds is 8, dd 13 and never have they intentionally killed an animal, great or small.

People who kill have a power struggle going on in their heads...I think it needs to be addressed, but many people don't because they have become so comfortable with the disconnect of life...you buy the meat and never have to experience unpleasantness. That's a bunch of BS to me, and I'm gonna live my life avoiding causing the suffering of others.

P.S. Plants also have no CNS, making it impossible for them to feel pain.

I always love the "screams of the asparagus" rationalization from the carnis though.


----------



## kaydee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
Would it help if you bought a similar creature such as a turtle or lizard and taught him to care for it as a family pet? Perhaps it would teach him compassion more than with random creatures he doesn't know. If you gave it a name he might realize that it has feelings, too.

Not sure I want to wade too far into this tangled thread, but I did want to comment that while I think USAmma's heart is in the right place with this suggestion, I want to STRONGLY discourage the OP from doing this--at least not without THOROUGHLY researching the needs (physical and psychological) of any animal before purchasing one as a companion.

Too many people purchase animals without realizing how complex (and expensive) it can be to adequately meet their needs. Turtles and reptiles are especially vulnerable to being neglected and/or abandoned, as few people are aware of exactly what it takes to care for them properly (and if they aren't being cared for optimally, what kind of message is that sending about compassion?).

One can learn about the needs of other creatures and develop empathy for them without owning them. Perhaps spending time at a shelter or sanctuary, or even just reading books about frogs or with frogs as characters would be a better first step towards exposing a child to the fact that these creatures have feelings and experience pain and need compassion and care.

If the OP does decide to get a reptile or turtle as a companion, there are often many available through rescue groups or shelters, because so very many are abandoned by their "guardians." Don't ever buy them from a pet shop or a breeder, please!

[/"pet rant"]

Last weekend at a local park, I saw a bunch of kids dragging a lizard along the sidewalk by a piece of string they had tied around its neck. I told them that they were likely to hurt or even kill it if they continued. What I wish I had said, in addition, was to ask them how they would like to be dragged down a hot sidewalk with a rope around their neck. A bit harsh, perhaps, but I think that when we see children hurting animals, we MUST find a way to ask them if they would want someone to do the same to them. The Golden Rule crosses species boundaries, IMO.


----------



## kaydee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
Just before I go, I would like to sincerely say that I am *very* sorry if my comments were hurtful to people that choose veganism.

It was not my intention to be mean about not eating meat. I have dabbled with the idea myself, and was more getting into the spirit of the argument, as opposed to really thinking about what I was saying.

Sorry guys.

Thank you for this. It was needed, and is appreciated.


----------



## Moss's Mommy

Obviously the OP was really concerned about this...duh.. it would concern any mother.
I'm horrified that someone on the first page predicted this child's future like they did. THAT'S INTELLIGENTLY INHUMANE. or whatever the word is. how about showing a little compassion for your fellow human?
totally disgusting.
and for the record.. I spray painted a snake when I was younger... (and a lot older)... I think about this everyday and still feel bad about it. I don't really think I knew any better at this age... it was rebellious, and yes, inhumane, but kids do really strange things sometimes... not thinking about the consequences.
Don't curse yourself.


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain*
I just wanted to comment on OTF the "micromanage" comment...was a bit strange. I'd think you'd want to be by dc's while they explore the world...Just today, my dd let a bug crawl on her, she giggled so hard. She wanted it to get off after a bit, and was going to smash it down, when I stopped her and showed her how to gently return the bug.


I have three children, 8, 4 and 3 and currently 9 months pregnant. I spend plenty of time with my children, however I want to give them plenty of time to explore on their own and play on their own. Maybe you find the comment a bit strange, but my 4 year old has been walking since he was 7m old, he is developmentally and cognitively advanced, he also has had behavior problems in the past (he takes medication and also has grown out of many) so that is why he has been "micro-managed" as my husband and I like to put it. I figure in our own, safe fenced backyard he can explore and play without being watched like a hawk.


----------



## Yooper

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
Just before I go, I would like to sincerely say that I am *very* sorry if my comments were hurtful to people that choose veganism.

It was not my intention to be mean about not eating meat. I have dabbled with the idea myself, and was more getting into the spirit of the argument, as opposed to really thinking about what I was saying.

Sorry guys.


----------



## Satori

I'm not about to read all 201 posts so I'm just going to reply to the OP. This kid seriously needs a psych eval to see if he's a sociopath. There not these scary guys you think live as hermits and go around killing people. They start off doing things like killing small animals for fun and it goes from there. There was a fantastic article in Psychology Today a few months ago called "The Ice Men" that describes sociopaths in detail and there actually 180 from what I thought! You should be able to find a back issue at your library.


----------



## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori*
I'm not about to read all 201 posts so I'm just going to reply to the OP. This kid seriously needs a psych eval to see if he's a sociopath. .

Maybe you should have read the thread







.


----------



## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain*
I







you sunmama. Symbiotic, not destructive. Exactly.

Oh, I'm so glad I got it right!

Esp since I am not a vegan, and was worried about misrepresenting the idea.

Do you still love me, now that you know I'm occasionally carnivorous?


----------



## Moss's Mommy

see, that's what I'm talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OP... don't make this a self fulfilling prophesy for you. UGGGGGGGGGGGG........
whatever.


----------



## spero

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori*
This kid seriously needs a psych eval to see if he's a sociopath.









: Geez, you couldn't have found a gentler, supportive way to state your opinion?


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori*
I'm not about to read all 201 posts so I'm just going to reply to the OP. This kid seriously needs a psych eval to see if he's a sociopath. There not these scary guys you think live as hermits and go around killing people. They start off doing things like killing small animals for fun and it goes from there. There was a fantastic article in Psychology Today a few months ago called "The Ice Men" that describes sociopaths in detail and there actually 180 from what I thought! You should be able to find a back issue at your library.

I can't believe you said this, you should have read the other 201 posts.
My son has been under the care of a child psychiatrist for 19 months. He IS NOT a sociopath, however he is bipolar -- and I might add he is stable. Not only that I HAVE DISCUSSED This with his psychiatrist who has been working with children for over 20 years and he has assured me that at four years old this is not sociopathic behavior, that my son has empathy, understands right from wrong, etc.

I wish this thread would have stayed closed because ignorance is running amuck on it.


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moss's Mommy*
see, that's what I'm talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OP... don't make this a self fulfilling prophesy for you. UGGGGGGGGGGGG........
whatever.

Yes, whatever.

See my above post.
This topic has come up many times in my real life dealings, and so far most people, while think its wrong what happened, say it falls under normal childhood behavior for a four year old. Plenty of males and females admitted to doing similar things as youngsters or sharing their children had done so -- noen are sociopaths or murderers.


----------



## Satori

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I can't believe you said this, you should have read the other 201 posts.
My son has been under the care of a child psychiatrist for 19 months. He IS NOT a sociopath, however he is bipolar -- and I might add he is stable. Not only that I HAVE DISCUSSED This with his psychiatrist who has been working with children for over 20 years and he has assured me that at four years old this is not sociopathic behavior, that my son has empathy, understands right from wrong, etc.

I wish this thread would have stayed closed because ignorance is running amuck on it.

I'm sorry, I don't believe you mentioned this stuff in the OP and I did not realize this was YOUR child but thought it was a child in your care. I was basing my thoughts off of what you wrote. You might have time to read 200+ posts and explain things through out but I don't have that kind of time online. Sorry I bothered to offer my thoughts.


----------



## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I wish this thread would have stayed closed because ignorance is running amuck on it.










I'm sorry, OTF. Maybe you could ask the mods to close it?


----------



## Moss's Mommy

OTF... I'm in Mississippi... HI next door neighbor!


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori*
I'm sorry, I don't believe you mentioned this stuff in the OP and I did not realize this was YOUR child but thought it was a child in your care. I was basing my thoughts off of what you wrote. You might have time to read 200+ posts and explain things through out but I don't have that kind of time online. Sorry I bothered to offer my thoughts.









I think you should reserve judgement in calling a child, any child a sociopath.


----------



## momo7

On The Fence.....You have my total support and sympathy.

I have a little girl who had frog fixation last summer, she was two at the time. She put them EVERYWHERE!







:







I found them all over the house, in everything. She just didn't understand that she was hurting them. She put one in the disk drive of our other computer.







Yes in the disk drive. I was absolutely horrififed for the poor creatures and not a little worried. She outgrew it.

Children do not see things the same way that we do...example: My son was about three or four and we found a dead dragonfly on our deck. He wanted it to fly so badly but of course it couldn't. He was very sad about this. What was sadder was that everytime I told him it was dead he just looked at me and poked the dragonfly some more to make it fly. A light bulb when on in my brain and I told him it couldn't fly because it was broken. It was only then that he understood. Most children learn pretty early that something is broken because they can put their hands on it and "see" that it's really truly broken , it just won't work. But "dead" just isn't in their vocabulary. They just have a difficult time grasping the concept. It wasn't untill after I connected the two, "broken" with "dead" did he make the distinction. In fact for a really long time afterwards if a toy didn't work or he couldn't make it work it was "dead".

With my little girl it was the difficult to get her to understand that she was hurting the frogs, the she was killing them. She just didn't "get" it. I finally told her "Your going to break the frog." She stopped, she understood what it meant. If she broke the frog, he wouldn't work anymore. After that I didn't have any more problems with it.

I am sorry your having a hard time with this.







You do know of course that there is nothing wrong with your son. He is a curious child that wants to know the how and whys of the world. I have four boys and trust me when it comes to creepies and crawlies they have the market cornered on the frog issue, but let me tell you their baby sister has put them all to shame.









You know your child better than anyone on the whole planet.


----------



## oldcrunchymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I think you should reserve judgement in calling a child, any child a sociopath.

Well, to be fair, she didn't call him a sociopath, just recommended getting him evaluated to see if he WAS a sociopath. A subtle but important difference there, especially in light of the fact that she hadn't read the rest of the thread.

OTF, I'm wondering why you posted this here at all if you've already got the psychologist "on the case" as it were. What were you hoping to gain by opening up the discussion on a public forum? I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm genuinely curious. You had to know that some people would be majorly freaked out by the behavior and that the responses would not be all warm and fuzzy. At any rate, it sounds like you're confident that you're doing what's best for your son so I would try not be bothered too much by the debate here (I know that must be tough though as it has gotten rather personal to say the least!). I do think the subject is interesting and it's worth keeping the dialog going.

To be honest, I'm disturbed by many of the actions (and not just OTF's son) against animals that have been described on this thread. I have to wonder how different some of the replies would be if we were talking about running over, microwaving, spray painting, stoning to death, pulling the legs off of (etc etc) tiny kittens instead of frogs or reptiles or bugs. I think many of the replies would have a different tone if the injured animal(s) was something cute and furry. Then again maybe not??









Trying hard not to judge but as a touchy-feely animal lover it's difficult for me to read some of the things posted here.







I have taught my kids from birth not to hurt animals and _especially_ animals that make their homes outside the confines of our house. We've spent many hours together observing animals outside. My kids have never shown any violent tendencies towards animals and will actually step around bugs on the sidewalk (for example) to avoid hurting them. They've done this from a very young age. I wonder if others here have had the same experience with their own kids and that's why the OP is getting such a strong negative reaction in some of the replies. To someone like me, mutilating an animal who is minding its own business does seem like very extreme behavior and something I personally would be very hard-pressed to explain away as normal experimentation.

Again, NOT trying to harshly judge anyone on this thread. Just trying to offer some perspective as to why some people are upset (to put it mildly) by some of the acts described on this thread.


----------



## spero

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7*
You do know of course that there is nothing wrong with your son. He is a curious child that wants to know the how and whys of the world.

...

You know your child better than anyone on the whole planet.









:


----------



## Moss's Mommy

nope, my son has never hurt anything and does the same thing when we see bugs too...
I think it was horrific that I spray painted a snake, and like I said, I still feel horrible about that today. So, to answer your question, I would feel just as bad as if it were a kitten. It was bad period. and my mother is a homebirth midwife, vegetarian hippy.... so.... it can happen to anyone's family. I think part of it was also a rebellion against all of that too...
and I would assume that OTF came here to get a whole bunch of mothers and fathers opinions as opposed to a medical professional's opinion. and they would be candid about it.


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lckrause*
OTF, I'm wondering why you posted this here at all if you've already got the psychologist "on the case" as it were. What were you hoping to gain by opening up the discussion on a public forum? I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm genuinely curious. You had to know that some people would be majorly freaked out by the behavior and that the responses would not be all warm and fuzzy. At any rate, it sounds like you're confident that you're doing what's best for your son so I would try not be bothered too much by the debate here (I know that must be tough though as it has gotten rather personal to say the least!). I do think the subject is interesting and it's worth keeping the dialog going.


Actually I was asking about feedback because I wanted the behavior to stop. It seems if you would have read the first few pages of the thread, that was the jist of it.
I also was interested in seeing what people in this community thought. Now I know.


----------



## cmb123

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lckrause*

To someone like me, mutilating an animal who is minding its own business does seem like very extreme behavior and something I personally would be very hard-pressed to explain away as normal experimentation.











The thing that makes me agree is the repetition of this behavior. If this was the first time I'd totally agree with the "normal experimentation" thing. As I mentioned in a pp, I grew up with a brother who did things like this...he was bright and "normal" in lots of other ways. He IS a sociopath. A very sick individual. So I know my experience may make me see the red flags. KWIM?
I don't even know your son, and as another poster said, you know you child better than anyone. I just don't think this should be brushed off and ignored. Your OP made me think you did take it seriously, but then your following posts sound like you think this is fine.


----------



## oldcrunchymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
It seems if you would have read the first few pages of the thread, that was the jist of it.

I did read the entire thread before posting, and I stand by my comments. With the proviso of cmb123 above... it's the continuing behavior that's disturbing to me, not a one-off thing that a kid felt really bad about (like Moss's Mommy and the snake or another poster's husband and the duck).

I'm not saying every kid who repeatedly kills animals is a future serial killer, but as you noted yourself, it is something to at least be concerned about.

ETA: Concerned about the animal killing, not about being a serial killer. Just realized that could be taken the wrong way, hehe.


----------



## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lckrause*
it's the continuing behavior that's disturbing to me,

Wasn't one of these instances last year? A child that age might not even remember doing the previous incident.


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lckrause*
I did read the entire thread before posting, and I stand by my comments. With the proviso of cmb123 above... it's the continuing behavior that's disturbing to me, not a one-off thing that a kid felt really bad about (like Moss's Mommy and the snake or another poster's husband and the duck).

I'm not saying every kid who repeatedly kills animals is a future serial killer, but as you noted yourself, it is something to at least be concerned about.

ETA: Concerned about the animal killing, not about being a serial killer. Just realized that could be taken the wrong way, hehe.

Okay, in one thread on this forum its saying that 3 year old children do not have the ability to understand right and wrong, and the first time this happened my child had just turned 3 or not quite 3, since the first time happened a year or more than a year ago.

Oy. I get mixed messages from the group of you that is for sure.


----------



## captain crunchy

I guess my thing is, if you know your child so well... if this is completely "normal"... if he has no issues whatsoever... why do we need a 200 page thread about it?

I am not trying to be flip honestly, but normal behavior usually doesn't require 200 responses. In other words, if my 2 year old like, bit me during nursing, I am sure I wouldn't get 200 responses...this is something that happens every day of the week on Mothering...

People are reacting so strongly because it is a serious situation. Killing an animal to watch it die, which is what you described in your first post, is not something a lot of people would take lightly. I understand you aren't taking it lightly in theory, but when people try to suggest that maybe it is something you should look into, or *can*...not is, *can* be an indicator of something more serious... I see you brushing it off like it is completely normal, every day, "boy" behavior.

It's not.

It is completely normal to come to the defense of yourself, your son, your parenting when you percieve that others are attacking that and I am sorry that you felt that way. You have to understand though, at a place like mothering, where people for the most part are touchy-feely crunchy as it is... a small child killing frogs for fun/curiosity/to see it flatten like a pancake...more than once... is not going to go over with cheers and applause. I am not saying that is what you expected, but it appears that you maybe thought more people would shrug and say something like "yeah that sucks, but don't worry about it."

I am not saying to let this thing rule your life...look, your child is probably completely fine and normal and all that...however, on the slim chance that something is NOT *normal* or he does have issues or whatever... it is WAY more important that you try to address it at 3 rather than at 13.... and our opinions either way should have no bearing on whether or not you do that. You should be making sure of that anyway...frog or no frog...

Look, we know you love your child. We know you are trying to be the best parent you can be. We know that you don't approve of wanton frog killing. This situation has obviously bothered you. We know you are protective of your family and your child and no one would ever want to hear that their child may not be completely *normal* (not saying he isn't, just saying it has been suggested)....

Your child may be completely normal and all statistics point to the fact that he most likely is and you will have no big problems. However, I stand by my opinion that the _behavior_ is not normal...or certainly wouldn't be looked at in that way in our home. I think most of the people's reactions to this thread reflect that sentiment as well.

I don't know how much small children understand the concept of right and wrong the way we do, but my arguement goes to general inate character of children and while I feel most children are curious creatures... it has been my years and years of experience that they don't have the desire to flatten animals "like pancakes" just because. Yes, sometimes they want to play with them, chase them, see how they "work" and because children aren't the most gentle at times...they can inadvertantly hurt an animal (which isn't right either) ... but it is very, very rare that I have come across a child who seeks out and wants to kill an animal just to see it die....and would be worried if they did. That's all.


----------



## Moss's Mommy

I think part of the reason this thread is so long is because of the horrible comment on the first page by another poster.
I think she realizes that this is an issue. But diagnosing him is not the right way of finding a solution. She needs real advice on what to do to stop this behavior, not a diagnoses and no hope to live anymore.


----------



## LeftField

I think that was very well said, Captain Crunchy.


----------



## Dechen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moss's Mommy*
I think part of the reason this thread is so long is because of the horrible comment on the first page by another poster.
I think she realizes that this is an issue.

I totally agree. And I don't blame OTF for feeling defensive. I think she was open to hearing that this was disturbing, but not to being told her child was a sociopath or the like.


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I guess my thing is, if you know your child so well... if this is completely "normal"... if he has no issues whatsoever... why do we need a 200 page thread about it?

I am not trying to be flip honestly, but normal behavior usually doesn't require 200 responses. In other words, if my 2 year old like, bit me during nursing, I am sure I wouldn't get 200 responses...this is something that happens every day of the week on Mothering...


Lets see, I have no control how many people respond to this. In fact several posters got off on their own tangents about being a vegan etc. I never said my child had no issues or that it was completely normal either -- I've gone with the track that yes it falls under normal behavior for his age after responses I got here and elsewhere.
So when you are asking why I need a 200 response thread about it, why don't you look at the people who responded to it -- multiple times?

As I said I will be wary of ever asking a parenting question or concern in this forum again. This thread has been locked 2 or 3 times since the beginning -- and I was more than happy to see it closed after SOME of the responses I got.


----------



## OnTheFence

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
I totally agree. And I don't blame OTF for feeling defensive. I think she was open to hearing that this was disturbing, but not to being told her child was a sociopath or the like.

YEP! That was it in a nut shell.


----------



## kaydee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*

People are reacting so strongly because it is a serious situation. Killing an animal to watch it die, which is what you described in your first post, is not something a lot of people would take lightly. I understand you aren't taking it lightly in theory, but when people try to suggest that maybe it is something you should look into, or *can*...not is, *can* be an indicator of something more serious... I see you brushing it off like it is completely normal, every day, "boy" behavior.

It's not.

It is completely normal to come to the defense of yourself, your son, your parenting when you percieve that others are attacking that and I am sorry that you felt that way. You have to understand though, at a place like mothering, where people for the most part are touchy-feely crunchy as it is... a small child killing frogs for fun/curiosity/to see it flatten like a pancake...more than once... is not going to go over with cheers and applause. I am not saying that is what you expected, but it appears that you maybe thought more people would shrug and say something like "yeah that sucks, but don't worry about it."...

Captain Crunchy:
















To the OP: it sounds like, despite all the hub-bub, you have gotten some practical advice.

To me, the feedback boils down to this: take this behaviors seriously; monitor your dc's behavior closely; make a conscious effort to work with your dc on empathy towards animals, whether through actual contact with animals or media featuring animal (and, perhaps, examine some of your family's attitudes towards animals that may be sending confusing mixed messages to your dc); be aware that harming animals *can in some cases* be a sign of more serious behavioral problems; continue loving your boy wholly, but not blindly.

Does this feedback help you?


----------



## Flor

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lckrause*
I did read the entire thread before posting, and I stand by my comments. With the proviso of cmb123 above... it's the continuing behavior that's disturbing to me, not a one-off thing that a kid felt really bad about (like Moss's Mommy and the snake or another poster's husband and the duck).

I'm not saying every kid who repeatedly kills animals is a future serial killer, but as you noted yourself, it is something to at least be concerned about.

ETA: Concerned about the animal killing, not about being a serial killer. Just realized that could be taken the wrong way, hehe.

I really don't think that a 4 year old doing something 3 times over the course of a year is repeated behavior. Think about it in another context. If you told a 3 year old to not jump on the bed and then they did it three times over the course of a year. . . or you told them not to push their brother and yet over the course of a year this violent behavior happened again. . ..

What can you tell a 3/4 year old to not do and have them understand the first (or second or third) time? Show me one child development book that says a toddler will listen/understand/obey after being told once!


----------



## Flor

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*

I don't know how much small children understand the concept of right and wrong the way we do, but my arguement goes to general inate character of children and while I feel most children are curious creatures... it has been my years and years of experience that they don't have the desire to flatten animals "like pancakes" just because. Yes, sometimes they want to play with them, chase them, see how they "work" and because children aren't the most gentle at times...they can inadvertantly hurt an animal (which isn't right either) ... but it is very, very rare that I have come across a child who seeks out and wants to kill an animal just to see it die....and would be worried if they did. That's all.

I missed the part where the child wanted it to die. I thought he wanted to flatten it like a pancake-- an important distinction, I think to a toddler who doesn't quite understand how things work.

Obviously I am in the camp of those who have seen a lot of different kinds of kids do this. It is sad to me as an adult, but not shocking.


----------



## kaydee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor*
If you told a 3 year old to not jump on the bed and then they did it three times over the course of a year...

True. Toddlers are still learning about impulse control. But jumping on a bed is not the same thing as killing a small animal.


----------



## Foobar

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydee*
True. Toddlers are still learning about impulse control. But jumping on a bed is not the same thing as killing a small animal.

Why not? Think in terms of a 3 year old. What does death mean to a 3 year old? I like the poster who told her kids that the animals would be broken....Kids understand broken, they don't get dead or kill or sometimes hurt. Hurt is reserved for people, not animals for some kids....


----------



## spero

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydee*
True. Toddlers are still learning about impulse control. But jumping on a bed is not the same thing as killing a small animal.

Not to an older child or an adult, no. But in a 3-yr old's mind, naughty behavior is naughty behavior. There usually isn't much degree of separation there at that age, IMO.


----------



## Peppermint

OTF, first of all







I haven't *seen* you in a while, congrats on the baby in utero. (I am formerly jess7396 from the c-section threads)

Anywho- I just spent all of naptime reading all of this drama and only have a minute to respond.

I have a 3.5 yo son and am horrified by some of the things he does, including purposefully stepping on ants







. My take on it as a mom and former preschool teacher is that is is pretty "normal" for kids to do this kind of thing, and that, you simply have to work hard at developing empathy for the frogs, and other small creatures. You've gotta talk about the pain they experience and maybe bring some spiritual beliefs into your talks with your ds.

I don't think that your ds is a sociopath or anything like that, and I don't think it is necessarily "abnormal" but as you have maintained- it is not "ok" for him to do this, so- talking, supervising frog play for a while, etc. should do the trick, IMO. Yep- you gotta protect the froggies but remain gentle with your little guy in teaching him this lesson as well.

Good luck, and I am so sorry this thread veered the way it did, I hope you got some advice you could work with to keep the froggies and your ds safe.


----------



## Flor

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skellbelle*
Not to an older child or an adult, no. But in a 3-yr old's mind, naughty behavior is naughty behavior. There usually isn't much degree of separation there at that age, IMO.

Ok, fine. Poking, biting, pushing, saying hurtful things. . .still don't think 3 times in a year is a sign of anything other than toddlerhood.


----------



## poppyqwn

Hi there, I just want to preface this by saying I have not read all 200+ post. I read the orginal and a few off of each page. I have three little boys and my oldest is a sensitive gentle child at 6. However at 3 it was a very different story. He never intenionally hurt animals, he has a pet cat he has had since he was a toddler, but he did things like pull the wings off of butterflies and legs of grasshoppers. I would always tell him that wasn't kind and we need to always respect all living creatures, but those were big ideas for such a little guy. I kept repeating it, but over the years there have been many buggies and small creatures that have met their demise.
A few weeks ago we discovered a nest in the tree in our front yard, it is a great climbing tree and attracts many kidos. While some of the kids were climbing it an egg fell out of the nest. My son came in crying that the kids had killed the baby bird inside. The egg had been smashed and poked at by several of the boys. (It cracked when it hit the ground and I couldn't have saved the bird) My son, who I would have been expecting to poke at it, was truely upset. The only thing that had changed since he was 3 was that he now knew someone who had died. My husband's grandfather who we had visited many times and DS really loved. The concept of death was not something he could grasp at 3 and now at 6 he knows what death means and he doesn't want to see anything die. I just think that kids have a natural curiousity and when combined with their lack of maturity and experience we can not expect them to comphened things like killing frogs on an adult level. If your child were 6 or older and kiling frogs for fun I may be concerned, but at 3, no way. I would just keep teaching it is not acceptable and wait for his maturity of the subject to come with time and teaching. JMO...


----------



## kaydee

Is the OPs child 3 or 4?









At any rate, many 3 yos DO understand that their actions cause pain to others. And even more 4 yos get that concept. (Some even understand death at that stage.)

We should use whatever terminology and concepts work for our child to help them treat other beings kindly, whether that's talking about hurting, killing, or "breaking."

And even if jumping on a bed and killing an animal seem similar to a toddler, they should NOT be treated the same by the adults in the toddler's life.


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## oceanbaby

Whoops - please ignore.


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## Flor

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydee*
And even if jumping on a bed and killing an animal seem similar to a toddler, they should NOT be treated the same by the adults in the toddler's life.

Well, of course!That was not the point. The point was that you have to repeat things many times before a toddler understands.


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## kaydee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor*
Well, of course!That was not the point. The point was that you have to repeat things many times before a toddler understands.

Yes yes yes. Toddlers must be told many times what we want them to do and not to do. On this we all agree, I think.

But I think this isn't just a question of *quantity* of responses, but also *quality*. This distinction is what I see missing in your posts, and what bothers me.

The "no" a parent gives to a child would (I hope) be qualitatively different than the "no" a parent gives to a child who just killed an animal.

I know that my 2yo dc can tell the difference between the response he gets, say, when he throws his food on the floor and the response he gets when he throws a metal toy truck in our face. He gets that one act is taken more seriously than the other--and he modifies his behavior accordingly. He throws food pretty regularly; throwing metal things in our face, not so much.

There is merit to taking a look at the situation from a toddler's POV, of course; but this doesn't mean that we oversimplify matters and downplay the seriousness of the act.


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## armonia

OnThe Fence.

I think it will all be fine since you are obviously concerned about the behavior and your son's psychologist is aware of the situation. You also said you have frogs everywhere where you live. He sees them all the time and has more opportunity. Not saying I condone it, but I think he is fine.

This is a strange thread to me and I am sorry you have read such hurtful comments. This thread is high on the frog love and low on the people love.


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## Peppermint

Quote:


Originally Posted by *armonia*
This is a strange thread to me and I am sorry you have read such hurtful comments. This thread is high on the frog love and low on the people love.

Very well stated, I noticed that coming in late too.


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## Moss's Mommy

BUT Kaydee... many of us here on MDC don't even use the word "no".... so we can't really comprehend what you are talking about.


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## Peppermint

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moss's Mommy*
BUT Kaydee... many of us here on MDC don't even use the word "no".... so we can't really comprehend what you are talking about.

:LOL good one!


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## kaydee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moss's Mommy*
BUT Kaydee... many of us here on MDC don't even use the word "no".... so we can't really comprehend what you are talking about.









Substitute your own GD or redirection phrase then or say it in pig latin or whatever works for your family.

Miss the point much?







: (or did I miss some humor?














)

ETA: I think most of us are here because we love children. Many of us also, however, love other animals, as well. It's possible to care for both human children AND nonhuman animals, believe it or not!









As I said in a PP, I think despite the contentiousness of this thread, the OP has gotten some good advice and feedback.


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## spero

Quote:


Originally Posted by *armonia*
This is a strange thread to me and I am sorry you have read such hurtful comments. This thread is high on the frog love and low on the people love.









:


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## Flor

I just don't think that no matter how strongly I react to something that a toddler remembers that reaction months later.


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## Moss's Mommy

kaydee.... I think we all agree on what you are saying... well, except for the "no" part...tee. hee.
and I'm pretty sure she's practiced that, taking it seriously, and I'm pretty sure she loves animals too.


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## Peppermint

Moss's Mommy- I thought you were being funny before with the "no" stuff, now am I the one who missed something?







I still think it was funny :LOL .


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## Moss's Mommy

no, I was being seriouse... really. Am I at the right website for this stuff?


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## Satori

Peppermint,

Those who don't use the word "No" to there children are usually TCS parents. http://www.eeng.dcu.ie/~tcs/FAQ/ Its not for every one but we do have a number of parents here who practice it. I cant imagine life without the N word


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## Moss's Mommy

I've never really studied TCS, but I guess you could say that that's it in a nutshell. It just makes sense to me to not say it.... there's always a larger explanation than just saying no.... and if they hear no all the time, it gets a little bit repetitive... and annoying, I'm sure. Mine would do the exact opposite if I said no to him. It's kind of a let down.
I read Dr. Sear's books, and I think they discourage it too, but mainly it just seems common sense to me. Most parents that try to incorporate AP into their parenting style would agree with me I think, well I know.
If my son were to flatten a frog like a pancake (i love how you described this, btw, writers in your family?????) and I were to say NO, he'd prolly do it again, and would be mad at me and rebel. If you hear no too much, you'd be desensitized to it.


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## Dechen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moss's Mommy*
If my son were to flatten a frog like a pancake (i love how you described this, btw, writers in your family?????) and I were to say NO, he'd prolly do it again, and would be mad at me and rebel. If you hear no too much, you'd be desensitized to it.











The *best* way for me to ensure that dd will do something again is to say "No."


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## Peppermint

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moss's Mommy*
no, I was being seriouse... really. Am I at the right website for this stuff?


Hey now, I am rather toward the TCS end of the spectrum here(I know, I know- TCS is not a "spectrum" thing :LOL), and know a fair bit about it myself, I also don't use "no" alone a lot or anything like that, though honestly- if I saw my ds flattening a frog like a pancake, that would likely be my first reaction "NO!"

I was laughing at the way you said that we who don't use "no" much would not understand Kaydee's talking about different ways to use the word.

I mean, seriously- just b/c you do your best to not say "no" to your child, and maybe are TCS, do you *seriously* not understand what she was saying?

IMO, unless you were raised TCS, only watch TCS family programming on TV (or don't have one







) have only TCS friends, etc.-- you would normally understand the use of the word, right?

Wether or not using "no" is appropriate was not something I intended to debate, I just am suprised that one would not understand the word just b/c they don't use it much, or try not to.









At least the heat is off of you IOF


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## TigerTail

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poppyqwn*
...an egg fell out of the nest. My son came in crying that the kids had killed the baby bird inside. The egg had been smashed and poked at by several of the boys. (It cracked when it hit the ground and I couldn't have saved the bird)

this is soooo ot (well, it kind of works its way back on track :LOL), but recently we had a blue jay attack on our bluebird house, & the boys found the eggs/babies bloodied and on the ground beneath. one was dead, one was still writhing in agony but was hopeless (i put it quickly out of its misery, out of their sight- nothing they needed to see), but one, while still a little pecked, looked intact enough that i put it back in the nest. the parents, bless 'em, took care of it & it survived.

not saying *you* could've fixed the situation by the time you came into it, poppy, but i just wanted to mention that it isn't necessarily hopeless in all cases. in this instance, they were about ready to hatch anyway (and, of course, i could reach the nest.)

and i have no doubt that, had i not been immediately present, out of curiosity my sweet & empathetic 2 & 4 yr olds would have poked them with twigs in all innocence, not really understanding that what they were doing was 'cruel'. (see, i did bring it back on topic!)

suse


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