# NCSS Support Thread



## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

This thread is for the sleep-dperived mamas and papas who are using the gentle method of NCSS to help their baby sleep better throughout the night.

Our sitter recommended we give DD a bath and milk so she'd sleep better. So we gave her a warm bath and let her play in the water and get some energy out. Then -- as soon as possible afterwards -- I got her on the breast.

It all looks so good on paper.

The electricity went out and we're having a heat wave. Add my body to the baby's body in a room with closed windows and you can see how easy it is to have a baby that won't go to sleep.

One hour later...

We finally took her into the basement. We're all sleeping down there in the cool air. The elec came back on, but we're already set up down there now.

Guess what? She's woken a lot. Now, I think she's too cold. So I put some socks and pants on her. We'll see what happens.

I did feel a small victory that I could get her back down with some rocking and loud humming. We do humming in the car when she is tired and cries and it works there so why shouldn't it work at home? I was able to rock her and get her mostly back to sleep and then sloooooooooowly put her on her back in the pack and play and, when she stirred, start to hum and she eventually went out.

And then she was up again in 39 minutes.

Sigh.

I'm feeling bummed. And now I'm really wired and can't sleep because I'm so tired.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

is ncss pretty straight forward?? library doesnt have it and no $$ to buy it.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Can you get it through inter-library loan? When I lived in a small town with a terrible library, I ordered books from other libraries from all over the country.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

I checked the interlibrary loan and apparently nobody has it? Strange.


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## Mikani (Aug 3, 2006)

We're doing NCSS here too, but only a wee bit. Leah is 3 months old, so it's nothing drastic, but we're trying to dull her sucking to sleep association. She wakes up every 45 minutes to an hour during the night and needs to nurse to go back to sleep. It's that fluttery comfort nursing, and I don't think she's taking much milk. But once her REM cycle is complete, and she wakes up a tad, she fusses to nurse.

I'm going back to work in 2 weeks, and would love for her to sleep for a few hours in a row at night.

So we're doing the "gentle removal" bit. Tough. It means I have to wake up much more than I used to. I hope I'm putting money in the bank, here, because I won't be able to do this once work starts...


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Leah,

When my babe was about 3-4 months, I started doing a bedtime routine. We did certain things before the night sleep to signify it was night.

Also, we had DD in the cosleeper right near me. When I nursed she went back in there -- I was worried about rolling over on her -- and was pleasantly surprised to discover she'd sleep 5-7 hrs when she wasn't right next to me. If your baby's weight gain is good, then I don't think sleeping 5 hours would be a problem.

For my baby, weight gain WAS an issue. So I had to forego sleep to nurse all night and then that created the sleep issuse we have to day (I am fairly certain).

Anyhoo, my baby is a year. I've been sleep deprived for a year while working FT and am at a breaking pt -- and need sleep.

We're on day 2 of NCSS and noticing MAJOR improvements!!

And maybe some of the improvement has to do with our own learning...DH used to pick the baby up. This time he didn't and she settled back down in 2 min! So she is getting better and longer sleep. Before, I guess he was just waking her up more.


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## Mikani (Aug 3, 2006)

I'm so glad you're seeing improvement!!

Thanks for the advice re: Leah. She doesn't settle well when she's not next to me. Sometimes I can get her down to sleep and then move her into the cosleeper, but in the middle of the night I'm just to tired to stay awake that long. It's such a catch 22. I'm too tired to do what I need to do to get more sleep!


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

I'll be joining y'all. DD is 8 months old and has never been a sound sleeper. I think she slept maybe a 4-hour stretch one or two nights (like, in her life), but most nights she wakes every 2 hours or so just to comfort nurse herself back to sleep. I used to think she would grow out of it, but I'm really starting to think now that maybe there is something else I should try. I requested the book from another library and am hoping to get it early in the week. I'm totally keeping my fingers crossed. I'm not hoping for a miracle; even a 5-hour stretch would be heavenly.


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## stanswife (Jul 30, 2006)

I'm so glad to see this support thread! We started a week ago and have been struggling (explained in a different post). We've not been as consistent as we need to be - that part is the hardest for us.

What are your nap routines? He sleeps so poorly when he's napping that our routine consists of plunking him in my sling and wearing him as he naps. Not that I mind...I'm forced to sit for an hour or so and I'm close to my babe.







But that doesn't go very far in teaching him to sleep better on his own.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Stanswife--What sling do you use? My friend uses a sling to his babe to sleep and then gently undoes the sling and leaves it wrapped around the baby like a blanket. He uses the OTSBH, which is easy to slip off without waking the baby.

For those of you who do not have the book yet, here are excerpts from it:

http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/con...ntingsleep.htm

Mikani -- LOL I thought YOU were Leah. I didn't realize she was your dd. See how tired I am!!

Tonight, the baby did a 3-hour stretch! I am learning a lot by keeping the nap logs. For instance, I learned that she was not sleeping as much at night as I thought she was.

RE: Naps: We don't do our whole routine for naps. For naps, I wait for sleepy signs and then get her into the bedroom asap. We do not delay any longer or else we miss the window and she gets revved up from being tired. *Usually* she does pretty well with the naps. Today was bad. A poopy diaper woke her up. Can't say I blame her for that!


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

DD naps really well, which I guess is what allows her to not sleep well at night!







She's on a pretty regular routine; nap around 10:00am for 60-90 minutes, and then another nap around 4:00pm for 60-90 minutes, sometimes even 2 hours. We have an Amby though, which I know helps her sleep soundly for naps. I've tried it for night-time sleeping, but she wakes up whenever she tries to roll over in it.







:

Last night she slept for 3 1/2 hours straight, which was really nice. I'm hoping with a little help, I can figure out how to ease her into even longer stretches at night.

I can't wait to read it so I will have more to contribute!


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## stanswife (Jul 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *henhao*
Stanswife--What sling do you use? My friend uses a sling to his babe to sleep and then gently undoes the sling and leaves it wrapped around the baby like a blanket. He uses the OTSBH, which is easy to slip off without waking the baby.

Henhao, I use a Heavenly Bundle sling with DS in the cradle carry. He's almost 19 pounds though, so when he outgrows the cradle carry in that one, I'll switch to my husband's size L New Native. The only problem with pouch slings is that I can't really take him off without waking him up.

Yeah for your progress! And a few hours sleep.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Stanswife--Oh, well I hope y'all find something that works for you both. =)

I think we're in nap transition here -- and teething heck -- baby wouldn't go to sleep...then DUH I realized she probably needed some teething tablets. Meanwhile an hour went by.

She skipped her afternoon nap and then fell asleep at the pool! She totally shocked me by wanting to go to sleep at 6:30 tonight. So she fell asleep there and then, when we got home, she would not go to sleep easily. Sigh. By keeping the logs, I realize now that when she skips an afternoon nap that she might want to go to bed earlier.

This transition thing is tricky.

We've spent 45 min trying to get her down. She is so tired...she just won't go...My turn to relieve DH is coming up so gotta dash.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

It works! She slept the longest stretches tonight.




























:






























now if I could just get to sleep. i'm so excited i can't sleep.


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## Mikani (Aug 3, 2006)

Hoorah Henhao!!! Sleep is so wonderful...

Nap schedule? What's that?









The last few weeks have been tough for naps, and I finally figured out what it was. Up to that point, Leah's naps and her nursing were synchronized. She would nurse to sleep for every nap. Then at 3 months, she started being awake for longer stretches, and so didn't nurse down, but had no other way of falling asleep.

Much screeching, much angst.

Now that I know what's going on, I can look for her sleepy signs and put her down when I first see them. But for a while, there, it was really rough.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Mikani--Wow, sometimes just having awareness helps to solve a problem. You just proved it!


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## L'lee (Dec 6, 2005)

Hi! I'll join in, too!

DS is 3 mos this week, and I read NCSS about a month ago. We have been gradually implementing some of her ideas, but not expecting DS to sleep all night for a bit! We have a very effective bedtime routine - we all go for a walk when DH gets home, DS rides in the Moby wrap facing out and loves to look at the trees. When we get home, he takes a bath (freaks out while getting dried off) and then he nurses until he falls asleep. At some point while he's nursing, he takes a 5 minute break, so I have been swaddling him then. The past two nights he has slept a 5 3/4 hour stretch! His max before this was 5 hours, and he had only done that once after crying for several hours before bed. (That's about the time when we started realizing he was associating a bath with going to bed and that we didn't have wait and give him a bath as a last resort at 11 PM -







) We have been working on shifting his bedtime since he was getting tired early and he had been staying up late. We have gone from 10 or 11 to 8PM and tried 7PM for the first time last night. We have even gotten to a point where we can leave him with a monitor so that I can eat dinner after he has gone to bed. It makes me nervous leaving him alone, though, so I'm always glad to get back in there with him. He sleeps in his cosleeper sometimes (when he's being fidgety), but mostly in bed with us. I do want to help him get used to sleeping without another person next to him as long as he is open to it, though.

Our biggest problem now is naps. He shows signs of tiredness, then I work on getting him to sleep and fairly often he wakes up 10-15 minutes later. Some days he will nap great, for 1-2 hours in the morning, then I have trouble in the afternoon. Other days, he won't even get the morning nap. I feel like I spend the whole day trying to get him to sleep, and if he doesn't he gets super crabby at about 4 PM. So, he definitely needs the naps! One thing he has responded to is being swaddled in his swing with the Princess Bride theme playing in the background on auto repeat.

I am not doing the nipple pull-out, since we had an overproduction/foremilk-hindmilk imbalance problem, so I want him to get as much hindmilk as possible so that we don't have that happen again. He nurses for about 30-45 minutes right before bed, and I'm OK with him falling asleep there, especially since he has fallen asleep on his own sometimes for naps or after he wakes up in the middle of the night. He tends to pop off with a flourish when he's done, anyways.

He got 12 hours total of sleep when I kept track. I'm hoping that if we get the naps figured out he will get closer to the recommended 15. I think that longer sleep stretches at night will REALLY help! *fingers crossed*


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L'lee*
I am not doing the nipple pull-out, since we had an overproduction/foremilk-hindmilk imbalance problem, so I want him to get as much hindmilk as possible so that we don't have that happen again. He nurses for about 30-45 minutes right before bed, and I'm OK with him falling asleep there, especially since he has fallen asleep on his own sometimes for naps or after he wakes up in the middle of the night. He tends to pop off with a flourish when he's done, anyways.

Welcome! At 3 months, I think you just do whatever works since you're still kind of in the 4th trimester...If falling asleep at the boob works for naps, do it! I had many a lovely time reading/knitting/spacing out/napping/watching movies while DD slept at my breast.

Your routine sounds like it's working for all of you and you all get to spend time on the walk reconnecting at the end of the day and getting some exercise. What a plan!


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## stanswife (Jul 30, 2006)

I posted in another thread that DS is making progress, but thought I'd flesh it out here. He slept for 2 hours 45 minutes straight last night and has been asleep now for an hour 10 minutes. AMAZING. He NEVER naps, unless I intervene to lengthen it. I'm still tired, but hope to catch up from the last two weeks this weekend.

Also, don't know if this will continue, but I had been slinging him to get him to sleep and thought he couldn't/wouldn't go to sleep any other way. Well, my sling kills my back after a couple hours, so I decided to hold and dance with him. Worked like a charm and much quicker. Huh!


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

Hi, joining ya'll w/ my 14 mo. old. I have a couple of questions for anyone who can help...Reading NCSS (for Toddlers but same info) I couldn't figure out if she was implying "scheduling' naps, like "OK, it's 2:30, time to nap." Reading these responses it sounds like everyone is following their dc's cues. Is that right? Or is anyone saying, "ok, it's 2:30, let's go lie in bed and hope for the best"?

Also, Henhao and anyone else w/ a 1+ yr old, you don't nurse to sleep? Has it always been that way? We've nursed to sleep every single time we've been at home, naps and nighttime for 14 months and that association is HUGE. The PPO just isn't cutting it.







I'm really at a loss at how to change this--if he manages to fall asleep in the stroller or whatever, when we lay him in the bed (we cosleep) he wakes up and wants the boob or else! I'm thinking of trying Jay Gordon's plan for night weaning but that still won't help *getting* him to sleep.


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## stanswife (Jul 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newbymom05*
Hi, joining ya'll w/ my 14 mo. old. I have a couple of questions for anyone who can help...Reading NCSS (for Toddlers but same info) I couldn't figure out if she was implying "scheduling' naps, like "OK, it's 2:30, time to nap." Reading these responses it sounds like everyone is following their dc's cues. Is that right? Or is anyone saying, "ok, it's 2:30, let's go lie in bed and hope for the best"?

Right now I just watch my DS and when he gets tired, we dance or sling. Initially we'd hoped to schedule his naps, but I never know when he's going to wake up in the morning. It could be 5, 7, 8, 9 or 10, which of course determines his nap schedule. I *think* he's starting to regulate himself, but that remains to be seen and could change at any time.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

Thanks, Stanswife. This morning, the most urgent, horrible problem is breaking the nursing-to-sleep association. I swear he must be listening in to DH and my plans because he nursed like a freakin' demon ALL NIGHT LONG and wouldn't let go of the nip for anything. And of course he's up all perky, the crazy baby. I swear, if DH adn I don't figure out how to get more than 2 hrs. of sleep soon...







:


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Babies have some natural sleep rhythms. I don't think Pantley means an enforced schedule. Instead, she advises to follow your baby's sleep cues. When they start to appear tired, melatonin is circulating in their body and helping them to relax. That is a great time to help them sleep...Being in a dark room helps, too.

My baby goes down for the night about 30 min after getting in the dark bedroom.

If we miss that window, she gets riled up and will be up for another few hours. That's because cortisol starts circulating through their system if they do not go to sleep when tired.

My nearly 1 year old gets sleep about 10 am and 2:30 pm. A lot of 1 year olds get sleepy about the same times. My baby goes to sleep about 8:30 ad wakes about 6:30 or 7:30 (with current wake ups during that time, which I am working on!).

Eventually, most babies drop that second nap (usually the am nap) and keep the second nap (in the afternoon) for another 1-2 years.

I am not sure how to progress with NCSS. Several things have gotten better...it takes less time to put her down for the night and she sleeps an hour more per stretch than when we started...but DH still is walking her at a lot of the wakeups and now she expects walking. That's great for him if he can sleep while walking LOL but I don't think either of us will want to walk a 30-lb girl at 1 am. So we need to stop that.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stanswife*
I posted in another thread that DS is making progress, but thought I'd flesh it out here. He slept for 2 hours 45 minutes straight last night and has been asleep now for an hour 10 minutes. AMAZING. He NEVER naps, unless I intervene to lengthen it. I'm still tired, but hope to catch up from the last two weeks this weekend.

Also, don't know if this will continue, but I had been slinging him to get him to sleep and thought he couldn't/wouldn't go to sleep any other way. Well, my sling kills my back after a couple hours, so I decided to hold and dance with him. Worked like a charm and much quicker. Huh!

GREAT NEWS!

Isn't it amazing how we assume something won't work and then we have to change how we do things and it DOES work. That has happened to me with DD several times!

DD slept for 3 hours the other night. Woo-hoo!


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## andimama (Apr 19, 2006)

this is so great to have this thread!!

our 9 mos old dd has never been a sound sleeper ... actually when she was about 4-5 mos she slept her best and we even had ONE 8 hr stretch!!







:
i was in shock!

but it went downhill from there! i totally understand and get that babies wake during the night and adults sleep differently but awaking every hour-2 is draining me. and right now i'm trying to heal two very badly injured nipples from a bite (she hasn't done it again but they are healing very slowly especially with all the night nursing i do







)

i'm not even looking for an all night sleeper and i actually usually enjoy out quiet nt nursing (well not at the moment cuz of my nips!) but i know that she can't be hungry every hour so there must be a way to settle her differently, right? anyway, that's why i bought the NCSS but it hasn't worked yet. the only way she settles back down is bf and sometimes she's only on for 2 min!

ahh...i'm so tired. so it'ss nice to have this support! and if anyone else has been bit and knows of a way to heal faster, please let me know. i'm trying everything!!!


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

andimama, have you tried lansinoh? how about aquaphor?

as soon as dd stopped nursing, i applied aquaphor so that it would soak in before she was ready to nurse again. it really helped me with a recent torn up nipple.

could your partner help you get some naps so that you have the energy to do ncss? it takes some energy to do it right...i wish it didn't!

right now, we have done some backsliding as dd is quite ill. she has a fever. we've given her tylenol. now she's prob so tired -- from lack of naps -- and so hungry from eating so little that she's just a mess. we're taking her to the doc in the am; we were not able to get her into the doc this afternoon; it looked like her fever was gone and then it came back right around the time the doc closed the office.


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## andimama (Apr 19, 2006)

yup ... i'm using lansinoh. stjohns wort oil, and nursing in different positions is helping as well. the wounds keep getting reopened every time we nurse so it's been a long haul. once they heal i'll be able to really put more energy into ncss. it seems like a lot of parents have had success with it!

thanks!! and hope your babe feels well soon.


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

I'd like to join this too. I have a 19.5 month old dd and we're still having enormous sleep problems. I'm going back to work (part-time) in a few weeks, and I'm freaking out a little because nights have been so miserable lately.







So I won't have to retype it, this is a link to my other sleeping thread:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=500090

I'd like to sit down with dh tomorrow on his day off and dust of the NCSS and try it again. If we do get a plan going, I'd really like to be in on this thread and the support. Being a sleep deprived mama (or dad!) is tough.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

I'm all for the NCSS--been [email protected]@ed trying it since birth, lol, but now we're considering adding the Jay Gordon 10 day plan. Anyone else tried this? Last night we did a combo w/ the PPO and in arms...you know.







Has the Gordon method worked for anyone in combo/addition to the NCSS?

Also, does anyone else's child FREAK OUT when you do the PPO? It seems very counter-productive--he's almost asleep but then he's wide awake and furious. Maybe I need to reread but it seems to me like Coleton took it a lot better than my bubs.


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

I haven't read Jay Gordon, but I'm thinking about checking it out at the library today! Thanks for the idea.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

I read the tips at the Jay Gordon web site so I have not read the book -- didn't even know there was a book until just the other day LOL -- and it didn't work for us. I don't think my baby understood why she could nurse sometimes and not between 12-4 or maybe I needed to make it a longer stretch? Not sure.

Can everyone list what success they have had? Here are mine:

DD is easier to put back to sleep during nightwakings -- takes 5 min as opposed to 20.

DD fell asleep ON HER OWN today for her first nap. DH put her down drowsy and she looked at him, kicked once and then went to sleep.

DD's bedtime now takes 30 min instead of 1-2 hours. We implemented a routine and do the same thing every night. I find the routine a lot of fun!

Doing this got me to get DH on board. He still makes what I think are wacky sugegstions like let's put her in her car seat and see if that helps. She's a year old so I don't think that would work...to introduce a new crutch.

I am also reading the Good Night Sleep Tight book and got some good ideas from there and asked DH to read it, too.


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## LoveMyLil'B (Dec 19, 2004)

I need to join too. I read NCSS again a couple weeks ago. We did it with my DS at about this age, but he was sooo much easier. Right now DD has me in tears. She's 7 months old. I don't know what else to do. We still swaddle her to sleep at night time and naps. She will not sleep any other way (well, in the sling or if I'm holding her). I am just so exhausted. Tonight I nursed her to sleep around 9 and DH said she was awake 8 times (so probably more like 4 or 5 since he likes to exagerate) by 1:30am when I nursed her back to sleep again. She will wake up every 10-30 minutes until around 2-3am, then she will usually sleep the rest of the night. So I guess it takes about 4 hours to actually get her to sleep for real. It's so exhausting, I feel like I am about to lose my mind. I start work on Thursday. I seriously do not know how I am going to do it. We were co-sleeping, but it seemed like every time I moved a muscle, she would wake up, so we're trying her in the crib now, but it's not working either.
So that's what's not working for me. What is working for me is the PPO. She is OK with that, lets me lay her down, and will sleep for a little while, but I guess it's more like a nap since she's up pretty soon thereafter.

Her naps are pretty good, usually 2-3 a day, sometimes for over an hour each. They're pretty consistent.

Bedtime routine is good I think. Probably a little late, but since we were co-sleeping it just made sense. DS goes to bed around 8, so I start getting her ready about then too. I have tried getting her to bed earlier, but then I was still running to her every 10 minutes or so. I didn't even get a chance to fold a load of laundry or do anything from start to finish.

Is their some crucial part I'm missing? Give it to me straight if you think I'm not doing something right. I am desperate.


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## MCPM (Jan 29, 2006)

I'm glad I found this thread, as I just found out about Pantley's book and have it on request at the library.

My girl is almost 10 months and the last few months have been downhill as far as sleep is concerned. I don't really mind a few night wakings/nursings at all, but often she becomes Miss Playful at 3 in the morning and grins and pulls my hair and yells. Very cute, but why do we need it at night???

I'm trying for the earlier bedtime, but then she will only nap once and that doesn't seem enough for a baby.

How do you even know if they get enough sleep? _grumble grumble_


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## nubianamy (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCPM*
How do you even know if they get enough sleep? _grumble grumble_

Great question... I have no idea. Seems like my 5mo dd is rubbing her eyes and yawning the moment she wakes up until she falls asleep at night. (Falls? I should say topples screaming into the chasm...)


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## stanswife (Jul 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveMyLil'B*
I need to join too. I read NCSS again a couple weeks ago. We did it with my DS at about this age, but he was sooo much easier. Right now DD has me in tears. She's 7 months old. I don't know what else to do. We still swaddle her to sleep at night time and naps. She will not sleep any other way (well, in the sling or if I'm holding her). I am just so exhausted. Tonight I nursed her to sleep around 9 and DH said she was awake 8 times (so probably more like 4 or 5 since he likes to exagerate) by 1:30am when I nursed her back to sleep again. She will wake up every 10-30 minutes until around 2-3am, then she will usually sleep the rest of the night. So I guess it takes about 4 hours to actually get her to sleep for real. It's so exhausting, I feel like I am about to lose my mind. I start work on Thursday. I seriously do not know how I am going to do it. We were co-sleeping, but it seemed like every time I moved a muscle, she would wake up, so we're trying her in the crib now, but it's not working either.
So that's what's not working for me. What is working for me is the PPO. She is OK with that, lets me lay her down, and will sleep for a little while, but I guess it's more like a nap since she's up pretty soon thereafter.

Her naps are pretty good, usually 2-3 a day, sometimes for over an hour each. They're pretty consistent.

Bedtime routine is good I think. Probably a little late, but since we were co-sleeping it just made sense. DS goes to bed around 8, so I start getting her ready about then too. I have tried getting her to bed earlier, but then I was still running to her every 10 minutes or so. I didn't even get a chance to fold a load of laundry or do anything from start to finish.

Is their some crucial part I'm missing? Give it to me straight if you think I'm not doing something right. I am desperate.









I have no suggestions for you simply b/c my DS is doing the exact same thing. The frequent waking, taking forever to really fall asleep, wearing him to sleep. He did seem to be worse with this right before he started to crawl, then it got a bit better for a while. Now, though, I think he's starting to teethe and it's back, but not quite as bad. Maybe for you this will pass, or at least you'll have little pockets of relief??

Henhao, how is your DD? Better I hope.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Stanswife--DD is better, thank you. She got through it rather quickly; it ended up being a mild case.

newbymom05--I might have a slight advantage about nursing to sleep in that DD had to learn how to go to sleep without a boob since I wasn't there every time she went to sleep. Babies are smart, though, and they can learn. I learned ways to soothe her without the breast.

Also, I have to tell you that DH and I DREADED bedtime because we'd think we just didn't know if the boob was going to work or not and it would take a REALLY long time. I moved the nursing up in our bedtime routine so that DD does not associate it with nursing. Here's our routine now:

7:15 nursing
7:45 books
7:55 warm bath with dim lights/brush teeth
8:10 or so in dark room to change into pjs and clean diaper
8:30 asleep

We put her into the bed drowsy and awake and we stay there and pat her intermittently or just sit next to her and say soothing words. She'll go out like a light now. These babies learn quick!

DD slept 9 hours last night. I did go in and give her a dream boob after she'd been asleep for 3 hours just to help keep my supply up.


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## leahida (Jun 7, 2005)

OK, subscribing! This is very inspiring. We are on vacation right now, but as soon as I get back home and ds gets used to the time change, I am going to try NCSS in earnest. He has a 100% nursing-to-sleep association and I'd like to try to see if I can't get him to sleep on his own sometimes. I read the book a few months ago but was too tired to actually try to implement it, LOL.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

OMG!!

The other night, DD ASKED to go to sleep by bringing me the first of the three books we read during her routine. At first, I didn't get it. I thought it's way too early. Then, I looked at the time and it was 7 pm. She wanted to go to sleep 30 min earlier!!

So, I did the routine -- nurse, books, warm bath, dark room for diaper and pjs -- and she was out within an hour.

Tonight it took only 20 minutes!! (The routine always takes about an hour...the actual falling asleep once in the bed took 20 min).

I combined NCSS with Good Night, Sleep Tight (GNST) techniques. NCSS didn't work for us 100%. I learned my baby needs to fuss a little to get to sleep. When I was so determined not to let her make one little peep because I was afraid it would be cio, she could not get to sleep. A little fussing is much different from crying.

A new development is also that she can't get to sleep if I am there, so I stay until she's VERY drowsy and then I leave. She "talks" to herself for a bit and then is silent and asleep.

She now sleeps about 12 hours in a row.









Now I can watch a movie with DH or write or work on a class I'm teaching or just do whatever. I love it -- and we're both getting rest we didn't get before.







:


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## mamanurse (Jan 22, 2006)

Wow! I didn't really know what the NCSS was, but this is EXACTLY what we do. We were really blessed with a babe that likes to sleep long stretches at night, so maybe that's why she followed our "lead" so easily. Sometimes, we still struggle at naptimes with following asleep. Is it ok to join the thread if we want to do NCSS for naptime too or does it not work?


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## nubianamy (Jul 6, 2005)

Total weirdness. We're new NCSSers. Two days ago I did a nap log for my 5mo (3 naps, total 3.5 hours, very good for her!) and a sleep log (8 wakings across 11 hours, nurse to sleep each time). I tolerate this level of non-sleep pretty well, but it was surprising even to me to realize how many times she was waking up at night to nurse.

Well, yesterday we were super busy with shopping, meetings, etc. and she had no typical naps -- she did fall asleep in the car for 10 min, slept on my neighbor's shoulder for 20 min, like that -- and we got to sleep an hour later than usual. Recipe for disaster, right? Guess who slept 5 continuous hours last night?? And then 3 more after that?? Do you think she was just exhausted?

The only other variable I changed was that I gave her Tylenol just before falling asleep -- she was pulling her ears pretty bad and I thought it might be teething pain (or possibly sore throat, as she's coming to the end of a cold). I *definitely* do not plan to dose her with Tylenol every night, but I guess it could have made a difference.

Weirdness. Well, we're ready to start making our sleep plan, so I'll let y'all know what happens. I would love to help her fall asleep on her own more often. She does this on occasion, when she's content and Mommy and Daddy are both there (as she did this morning when she woke at 4am to play; I shusshed her a bunch and rubbed her back and she did eventually fall asleep), but at night she definitely has a nurse-to-sleep association.


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## LoveMyLil'B (Dec 19, 2004)

We're doing a little better here too. She is still nursing once or twice a night usually, but she's not waking every hour (or less!) anymore. She seems to sleep much more soundly in her bed, so that's what we'll do. I'm still bringing her to our bed for nursing. I also followed the advice of not rushing to her every time she makes a peep, and her sleep is improving. We don't let her lay there and cry, but sometimes she will fuss off and on for a minute or two before going back to sleep, but never any longer or we go right to her. When she's hungry, she definitely has a different cry and I go right to her.

We also stopped swaddling her. I figured if we were going to help her to sleep on her own, we'd go ahead and hit it straight on instead of having to do it all over again when she was ready to be unswaddled. She has done surprisingly well. We found out that she likes to sleep on her tummy, something she couldn't do swaddled, so perhaps that's helping her to sleep better too. We still swaddle for naps since she usually wakes up if you lay her down unswaddled.


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## mamanurse (Jan 22, 2006)

I still swaddle 8 month old dd for most of her naps







: I don't want to, but it seems to really help her settle down and go to sleep. We don't swaddle her for bedtime and she sleeps at least 10 hours straight







:. For naptime, I lay her in the crib after feeding, reading, and rocking. If she doesn't fall asleep within a half hour (no she's not crying, just chatting to herself), I swaddle her up and she goes to sleep within five minutes. Any recommendations on how we can get her to nap without swaddling?


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamanurse*
I still swaddle 8 month old dd for most of her naps







: I don't want to, but it seems to really help her settle down and go to sleep. We don't swaddle her for bedtime and she sleeps at least 10 hours straight







:. For naptime, I lay her in the crib after feeding, reading, and rocking. If she doesn't fall asleep within a half hour (no she's not crying, just chatting to herself), I swaddle her up and she goes to sleep within five minutes. Any recommendations on how we can get her to nap without swaddling?

Is there any reason you want to stop swaddling? I don't see any harm in it. Am I missing something?


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamanurse*
Wow! I didn't really know what the NCSS was, but this is EXACTLY what we do. We were really blessed with a babe that likes to sleep long stretches at night, so maybe that's why she followed our "lead" so easily. Sometimes, we still struggle at naptimes with following asleep. Is it ok to join the thread if we want to do NCSS for naptime too or does it not work?


YES, please join the thread. Maybe you and I can help each other. We're having the most trouble with naps. We've had trouble getting her down. She cries a lot; we stay with her to soothe her. She goes to sleep great at night when we do a routine, so I'm thinking we need more of a nap routine! I'm trying to think of what relaxing things we can do before her nap...read books, walking...any other ideas? The warm bath works so well at night, but I can't give her a bath 3 x per day.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nubianamy*
Total weirdness. We're new NCSSers. Two days ago I did a nap log for my 5mo (3 naps, total 3.5 hours, very good for her!) and a sleep log (8 wakings across 11 hours, nurse to sleep each time). I tolerate this level of non-sleep pretty well, but it was surprising even to me to realize how many times she was waking up at night to nurse.

She could have been exhasuted. Every babe is different. Mine often gets WIRED when she's tired.

When I charted the naps and night sleep, I was also surprised at how little she slept. We spent so much time trying to get her back to sleep that it was subtracting from her overall number of hours. She was sleeping about 9-10 hours (with 5-6 wakings) at night and that's not enough.

I may have lived with it if it'd been only 1-2 wakings, but 5-6 was too much for me to handle.


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## mamanurse (Jan 22, 2006)

I watch her very closely for sleepy "signals." Dd is an eye rubber and that's my cue that she's ready to sleep. As soon as she does that, I change her diaper, feed her, and rock her 'til she's drowsy. Then I put her in her crib and sometimes end up swaddling her for naps if she gets too hyper when I put her down.

I want to stop swaddling her for naps because she is 20 pounds and I won't be able to do it forever. She can "bust out" of a swaddle in the blink of an eye. If I end up having to swaddle her, I only do her arms. I have to hold her arms at her side while she drifts off to sleep or else she gets all hyper again when she gets her arm out of the swaddle. Right now, she can't sit up on her own, but pretty soon she'll be able to. I just don't want to have to pin her down to go to sleep. There's something that I feel is wrong with my "technique" and I want to change it.


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## raspberryswirl (Sep 27, 2005)

Does anyone else think that the NCSS should have its own sub-forum??? There's obviously enough interest in it. It would make it a lot easier for us to find, post and respond to all the different situations going on in this thread. kwim? How do we go about requesting that?


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *raspberryswirl*
Does anyone else think that the NCSS should have its own sub-forum??? There's obviously enough interest in it. It would make it a lot easier for us to find, post and respond to all the different situations going on in this thread. kwim? How do we go about requesting that?

The low supply milk tribe got a board for "breastfeeding challenges" and it took some time to get it. I think the mods wanted to make sure there was a need. If you want, you could write to one of the mods like Cynthia Mosher (is that her name) and ask how to proceed.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamanurse*
I want to stop swaddling her for naps because she is 20 pounds and I won't be able to do it forever. She can "bust out" of a swaddle in the blink of an eye. If I end up having to swaddle her, I only do her arms. I have to hold her arms at her side while she drifts off to sleep or else she gets all hyper again when she gets her arm out of the swaddle. Right now, she can't sit up on her own, but pretty soon she'll be able to. I just don't want to have to pin her down to go to sleep. There's something that I feel is wrong with my "technique" and I want to change it.

Okay, I get it. I wish I had something to suggest. Our DD only went to sleep with swaddling for the first 4-5 months. Once she could bust out, it got harder and she sort of naturally transitioned out of it.

One thing I did -- I forget how old your DC is -- was to have a 1 lb weight wrapped with a few soft, fuzzy receiving blankets. I would put DC in the cosleeper and have one side of her against the "wall" nearest me and the other side of her would be next to the weight with blankets. I think she liked that "snuggled in" feeling.


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## chiro_kristin (Dec 31, 2004)

Okay, Deb (henhao) knows me... I need your support and help, and I have zero time to read a book.

This is how things usually go down:

Up at 8:15-8:30 at which time ds nurses, gets changed, and goes off with me to work.

Goes down for a nap at 11-11:30, by nursing and then standing up to rock and hum Winnie the Pooh, then lying back down and nursing off. Takes anywhere from 10-20 minutes. Sleeps for 2-1/2 hours, 90% of the time. If he wakes up early, I rock him with shushing, and he goes back to sleep quickly (generally). Today he slept for 1:45. I tried to see if he wanted to sleep longer, but when I put him down and nursed again, he woke up, so we got up.

Nap again at 5:30-ish, usually for 1-1/2 hours, same routine to go down.

DH gets home at about 7:30, at which time we finish cooking, eat, clean up, enjoy each other.

At 9:30-10, we start the bedtime routine, which involves massage, diaper change, putting on PJs, and nursing, rocking, nurse-down. The whole process usually takes an hour. Ds is very happy during this time but has problems letting go of the fun that he has while awake.

On good nights he sleeps 2 hours at a time before waking to nurse while lying down. On medium nights he wakes more frequently or crawls on top of me to get me to get up and rock him back to sleep. On bad teething nights (he's cut 5 teeth in the past two months) it is just horrendous, as he wants to sleep but can't settle himself into a deep sustained sleep (and by sustained I mean more than an hour).

Any help is appreciated. I'm willing to put him down whenever (I have a little bed for him at work) or put him to bed earlier, but this is the schedule I believe he has designed for himself. Oh, and dh and I play volleyball on Monday nights from 7-8, and the babysitter is across town so by the time I go get ds and come back home after vball, it is 8:45 or so!

I can pretty much almost handle the two-hour wakings although I'm pretty sick of it and think it isn't necessary for him anymore, although I can function on that. But two-hour wakings should be BAD nights, not GOOD nights, kwim?

When he wakes, he's never "up." He -wants- to go back to sleep.

Thanks


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Kristin,

I'll give you advice based on the book.

It sounds to me like he's up for way too long during the day. That *might* be one reason why he has trouble settling himself...because he's so tired! Sometimes babies sleep worse when they are overtired.

The tricky thing is you have 3 areas to work on.

One is night sleep.

One is naps.

One is the sucking to sleep association. (Not everyone on MDC agrees that nursing to sleep is not a good idea. However, you've stated a problem that I believe will improve for you if you stop nursing to sleep.)

The VERY first thing you have to do is keep a log for 24 hours so you have an overall picture of what's going on with C and his sleep.

The firs tlog is day sleep. Track how you put him to sleep, how long he slept (from what time to what time) and how he woke up(cyring smiling etc)

The second is night sleep. Track how he fell asleep (while you were nursing, etc), what time was the first sleep and then the time of each wake up....

You know what? I can email you my logs, so you can use them for your own tracking. Send me a PM with your email and I can send you the Word doc so you'll have all the info you need to track. That would be SO much easier than me trying to explain it all here.

Making a log is the very first thing you need to do.


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## chiro_kristin (Dec 31, 2004)

Deb, your box is full. I think my e-mail is in my profile.

I want to clarify that I do already detach him from the nipple. I can't sleep when he is on, so I do usually have to detach him before he releases it himself. Maybe not soon enough for EP's advice, but I do that.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

I haven't been able to keep up with all posts, but just wanted to say this is the first night we are actually doing the whole plan, for better or worse. I'm kind of skeptical right now though because I did the nipple removal (or whatever she calls it) and DD protested *every* time, to the point that she woke up fully again and it took another 45 minutes to get her to fall asleep. <sigh> She *almost* fell asleep on her own without the breast at all, but I just couldn't take how sad and pitiful she was (though she didn't cry til the very very end of a long attempt at it). So I don't know. I'm going to keep trying, but it definitely seems like things are getting worse rather than better. For the past few days, I've even been trying the nipple removal before naps like the book suggests, and her naps have gotten worse over this past week; she used to sleep at least an hour to 90 minutes straight, and now she wakes up after about 30 minutes, nurses, and then goes back to sleep. It's like she's developed sleep anxiety or something. It's so frustrating, depressing, and exhausting.


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## Tangelo (Jun 9, 2005)

^We had the same issue with my first attempt at the "Pantley Pull Off." After trying it several times, my son was more awake than sleepy. It wasn't a very encouraging start. I know I need to stick with it in order to give it a chance to work, but I am having a couple of issues. It's hard for me to pinpoint the exact moment in which to attempt the PPO, and I'm not really comfortable with holding his chin--he just gets mad.

I would *really* like to get my son used to going to sleep without the boob! I am so burned out of laying there in the dark for hours and hours waiting for him to fall asleep. I bought NCSS a couple of months ago, but am just now getting up the motivation to actually give it a shot.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

I hear ya in that I was also tired of being in a dark room for hours trying to nurse the babe to sleep...I'll note that I did not have luck with the PPO. I did it over and over and had an upset baby.

What DID help was moving the nursing up in the routine. My routine is now:

nursing
books
warm bath
into dark room for pjs and new diaper
walking
into crib while awake/drowsy
(NO nursing at the end)

I had to get rid of that nursing-to-sleep association. She was not happy about it and let me know. This is when I used techniques from Good Night, Sleep Tight...the NCSS worked for us ***to a point*** and we had to use GNST to get all the way there...I soothed her and was there for her during the transition. I used key words like "time for night night" and also said "shhh". Every few nights we did a little less and moved a little further away to let her know that we're there for her AND that she can do this on her own. DH and I were in SHOCK when she fell asleep on her own. I mean it. He walked out one night with his mouth hanging open. I walked out the next night with MY mouth hanging open.

It can be done. Hang in there!

If you are super exhausted, think about whether you need to take a break, get some rest and start again.

If you are having lots of trouble, think about if you are really ready to do this. I thought I was ready a long time ago, and I just wasn't.

It wasn't until I was ready that things started to click into place. And parts of it were sad for me. Change is often sad AND happy, and that's how it was for me.


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## Tangelo (Jun 9, 2005)

Thanks for that post. I keep thinking that the NCSS is my only option and that if it doesn't work, my son will never be able to fall asleep on his own and I will be doomed forever.







I think that's part of the reason I have been putting off trying the technique--I am too afraid of failure! It's reassuring to know that there are other options, if this doesn't work for us.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Tangelo, I know what you mean about feeling like if this doesn't work, there isn't anything left.

Henhao, I also have been moving the nursing to the beginning of our sleep routine. Our first step in night-night time is a bath, and she has been nursing a lot during our bath so by the time we get into bed, her tummy is full and she doesn't want to nurse anymore. That happened last night; she would latch on just out of habit, and realize her tummy was full, and spit the nipple out. So I know that is one technique that will help.

She did sleep well last night though, so I guess it is working to a degree. She slept from 8:45 to 2:45 without waking, and when she woke she was able to get herself comfortable again and fall asleep without my assistance at all.







(We need a hallelujah emoticon!) After that, I think she woke up two more times to nurse, but I know she was hungry because her little tummy was growling! So...I do feel encouraged to keep trying, but I'm just not sure if I need to adapt our plan or if I should stop trying the PPO. I guess I'll do the 10 days and see, but my biggest fear like I said in the earlier post is creating sleep anxiety because she hasn't had any to this point. I've never heard of GNST; I'll have to check it out.


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## raspberryswirl (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *henhao*
The low supply milk tribe got a board for "breastfeeding challenges" and it took some time to get it. I think the mods wanted to make sure there was a need. If you want, you could write to one of the mods like Cynthia Mosher (is that her name) and ask how to proceed.

Thanks henhao, I did e-mail Cynthia but was told "they don't provide forums of that nature"...whatever that means. I guess maybe it is too specific or maybe they don't want a forum based on someone's book. It's too bad b/c I think a lot of us would get a lot of use out of it. Oh well....









Unfortunately too that Elizabeth Pantley herself doesn't offer a forum on her website. She has links to discussion groups that supposedly do have forums about the book but I've found that many of them are no longer active. Well, there is one on sheknows.com but it's just getting started and so activity has been scarce.


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## sweedma (Jul 6, 2006)

:

Lurker here -- I read NCSS a while back and tried it halfheartedly. I basically have always had to do the PPO because my ds never willingly lets go of the nip -- seriously, he can apparently nurse in his sleep for hours. Now he does sometimes roll over and go to sleep after I pop him off, even in the middle of the night, but I'd sure like a few more continuous hours! I'll be learning from your experiences... (no pressure







)


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## mamanurse (Jan 22, 2006)

Livi fell asleep for both naps today and yesterday without being swaddled. Maybe she's actually onto something...


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## KathleenSLP (May 23, 2004)

Thanks for this thread. I am planning to buy the NCSS Toddlers book.

I was wondering if Pantley discusses increasing nap length? DD power naps in the morning and does well with a short nap. But if she has a short nap in the afternoon she's exhausted and needs an early bedtime. Does Pantley discuss this at all? Thanks.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *henhao*
I hear ya in that I was also tired of being in a dark room for hours trying to nurse the babe to sleep...I'll note that I did not have luck with the PPO. I did it over and over and had an upset baby.

What DID help was moving the nursing up in the routine. My routine is now:

nursing
books
warm bath
into dark room for pjs and new diaper
walking
into crib while awake/drowsy
(NO nursing at the end)

I had to get rid of that nursing-to-sleep association. She was not happy about it and let me know. This is when I used techniques from Good Night, Sleep Tight....

OK, can you tell me more about GNST? I just read the reviews of it on Amazon and it sounds pretty sleep-trainy--is it? Would you say it's harsher than Jay Gordon's plan? Does the GNST go into that or does it just assume you aren't nursing to sleep? Also, several of the reviews said the GNST advice on breastfeeding was "questionable"--what gives? Whoops, one more--wer'e family bed and want to stay that way for awhile. Is the GNST compatible w/ that?

Sorry for all the questions!







It's just that I have sooo many sleep books and I'm not looking to buy another if it isn't for us, y'know?

But I'm glad to hear it's working so great for you!


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## andimama (Apr 19, 2006)

hello! we have been working on ncss with our 9mos dd but our biggest issue is getting her to self soothe back to sleep after waking at night. she's in her crib which is attached to our bed and she's up every 1-2 hrs. when i say up i mean barely awake ... she fusses and tosses and turns ( and i just read that after 1-2 hrs of sleep babies go through a change in their sleep and aren't actually waking ) and after we try soothing her (putting our hands on her, gently singing etc) it usually turns into a full blown cry and i end up nursing her back to sleep. i'm not looking for an all nighter, as i enjoy our quiet night nursing times, but 8times a night is a bit much!!
it has been exhausting but i want this to work especially after receiving as a gift the book healthy sleep habits happy child ... which i think is aweful!!
has anyone read it?
anyway ... what have some of you been doing with night wakings?
bye for now and thanks!!


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## andimama (Apr 19, 2006)

for this forum!!
it reassures me that i'm doing a good job with my babe and even though i'm exhausted i know it'll get better!

i had this thought ... my dd is 9.5 mos old and still pretty much exclusively bf ... so could she be legitimately hungry every two hours??? she's eating a little here and there but she gets most of her nourishment from me still and she's thriving. this is normal right??


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newbymom05*
OK, can you tell me more about GNST? I just read the reviews of it on Amazon and it sounds pretty sleep-trainy--is it? Would you say it's harsher than Jay Gordon's plan? Does the GNST go into that or does it just assume you aren't nursing to sleep? Also, several of the reviews said the GNST advice on breastfeeding was "questionable"--what gives? Whoops, one more--wer'e family bed and want to stay that way for awhile. Is the GNST compatible w/ that?

If you're ready to nightwean, then GNST will be for you. Her bfing advice is not good, but I ignored it. It's rare I ever find a book I completely agree with so I always ignore what I don't like and do what I do like.









I don't know about about Jay Gordon. I used techniques I found on his web site and didn't even know he had a book until recently. I tried to teach the baby not to wake between 12 and 4 am. I thought I could survive with 4 hours in a row of sleep, but she prob didn't understand why she could have booby in the dark sometimes and not others. It didn't work for us.

GNST has a whole section about family bed. Since I wasn't doing that, I didn't read it too carefully.

Good luck!


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *andimama*
for this forum!!
it reassures me that i'm doing a good job with my babe and even though i'm exhausted i know it'll get better!

i had this thought ... my dd is 9.5 mos old and still pretty much exclusively bf ... so could she be legitimately hungry every two hours??? she's eating a little here and there but she gets most of her nourishment from me still and she's thriving. this is normal right??

I think it depends on your baby. Mine was able to feed herself starting at 6 months. I felt like since she could physically feed herself that she must be ready. Some babies are not ready until closer to a year. Such a wide range.

Until 1 year, babies are supposed to get most of their nourishment from mama milk (or other mama milk or even formula) over any other foods. With DD, I would nurse her first before giving any solids so I made sure she nursed when she was at her hungriest and then solids came second.


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## nubianamy (Jul 6, 2005)

Update... after our 8x waking night, followed by our 3x waking night, dd woke TWICE the following night (bed at 9, up at 1:30, up at 6, up for good at 7:30). I think she was up three or four times last night. She's definitely sleeping longer stretches, though. After a few weeks of nursing every hour, I can really tell the difference! Not sure WHY it's happening, though...







It's probably not the Tylenol, though, because we didn't give it last night. Anyway. We're way off her bedtime tonight (dinner with old friends, bed at 9:15) so who knows what will happen tonight...

Gosh, we were SO close to getting her to sleep on her own! I nursed her with the light on, sitting up in my lap. When she started to drift off, I pulled off and put her down gently, turned off the light, and lay down next to her, rubbing her back. She rolled over and almost went to sleep! But then she started tussling around for a few minutes, verrrry close... then turned over and noticed me. *sigh* I'm not going to sweat it, though.

We won't start NCSS in earnest until a few weeks into September, because I'm going back to work and I want to give her some time to get used to that. But we are definitely doing less nursing to sleep and more other methods of soothing, and I think they're having an effect -- even in the midst of teething.


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## raspberryswirl (Sep 27, 2005)

UGH! Since we've started putting our baby to sleep earlier, he of course is waking up earlier. Yesterday and today he was bright-eyed and bushy-tailed at 6:30 am!









On a happier note though, I think we may have finally found the pre-bedtime routine that works for us. Last night was the first night in many that our little stinkpot didn't cry and throw a fit while going to sleep. This is what we did:

5 - 5:20 pm dinner
5:25 - 5:50 bath, change into p.j.s
5:55 - 6:10 breastfed
6:10 - 6:55 played quietly in low light room
7:00 - 7:10 swung in hammock with DH, while DH sang to him
7:15 DH brought him to bedroom and I held and rocked him for 2 minutes before he fell asleep! woo hoo









Please God, *PLEASE* don't let this be a fluke!!!!! He still woke up a million times during the night, but at least we may have one part of the problem solved.

The saga continues.....


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## raspberryswirl (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *andimama*
hello! we have been working on ncss with our 9mos dd but our biggest issue is getting her to self soothe back to sleep after waking at night. she's in her crib which is attached to our bed and she's up every 1-2 hrs. when i say up i mean barely awake ... she fusses and tosses and turns ( and i just read that after 1-2 hrs of sleep babies go through a change in their sleep and aren't actually waking ) and after we try soothing her (putting our hands on her, gently singing etc) it usually turns into a full blown cry and i end up nursing her back to sleep. i'm not looking for an all nighter, as i enjoy our quiet night nursing times, but 8times a night is a bit much!!
it has been exhausting but i want this to work especially after receiving as a gift the book healthy sleep habits happy child ... which i think is aweful!!
has anyone read it?
anyway ... what have some of you been doing with night wakings?
bye for now and thanks!!

The problem you're having is the same one I'm having...but it's getting better since we've started implementing the techniques in the book (NCSS). My babe also wakes every hour or two and if I tried to do anything other than put a boob in his mouth he would get very angry and more awake. Since I've been doing PPO (albeit I put a binky in his mouth instead of trying to close it) I've noticed that I can now pat his butt when he starts to get agitated. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but I am seeing progress.

Have you tried some of the ideas such as a white noise machine, a loud fan or continous music? We started using both a fan and a white noise machine and I think that along with the "shh, shh shh" sleep cues is helping.

HTH!


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## mamanurse (Jan 22, 2006)

For those of you struggling with the early bedtime and early rising, it's what we've been doing for months. Dd's "routine" includes:

6:30-Rise and shine
8:30-Naptime
1:00-Naptime
6:45-Sleeptime

She occasionally wakes around 4:30 to feed, but most nights she sleeps all the way through. We're very consistent with these times and make a point to be at home or somewhere where she can nap/sleep according to her routine. Her morning nap normally lasts an hour to an hour and a half and her afternoon nap is lenghtening to past 2 hours now.

The only drawback to this routine is that we can't really go out to dinner in the evening


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## L'lee (Dec 6, 2005)

Hi mamas!

I think one important thing to remember is that you don't have to start doing everything at once. Gradually add the things that you think will be the most effective, like a bedtime routine and adjust as necessary. That's what I think is one of the coolest things about this book - the flexibility.

Maybe the moderators would be open to having a forum about sleep issues?

Still working on naps here. If anyone has discovered how to extend naps, I'd love to hear how! DS often wakes up after 10 minutes, which is really hard to deal with when I have been trying to get him to sleep for 1.5 hours.







Other times, he'll sleep for 45 mins to 2 hours, not usually though. Today he has slept for 45 mins, 20 mins, and 1.5 hours - a VERY good day! Wish I knew how to repeat that!

I may have to try the PPO sometime, since DS will sleep for one long-ish stretch, but then he's up every 1-2 hours wanting to nurse.

Getting him in the cosleeper has really helped - he will sleep for 2 hours instead of just 1 many times. I think we all wake each other up rolling around and snoring - especially DH and DS!


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nubianamy*
Update... after our 8x waking night, followed by our 3x waking night, dd woke TWICE the following night (bed at 9, up at 1:30, up at 6, up for good at 7:30). I think she was up three or four times last night. She's definitely sleeping longer stretches, though.


That is great news!!


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## anonymous4_20 (Nov 3, 2005)

:

I will post more on our situation later. I'm currently nak-ing in a dark room for 3 hours to get him to sleep.


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## anonymous4_20 (Nov 3, 2005)

We've been doing the NCSS for about a month now, with little to no progress. His napping has improved since I've been doing the sneaking in and nursing back down, but he still prefers to nap on the breast and gets upset when I set him down. His night wakings take less time than they used to, but he's up all night long. We only co-sleep part-time (early morning and one nap) because I have chronic shoulder problems that make it nearly impossible for me to nurse side-lying. So I'm up and in the recliner nursing him back down 6 or 7 times a night, on average. Some nights it's more like 12 times. He often stirs back awake when I transfer him back to the crib.

He's been teething all summer long and has gotten six of his teeth all at once.







: I think this is probably why NCSS isn't working so well for us. The pop-off seems to be helping a bit, but he still will only go to sleep if he's nursing. I can't lay him down sleepy, or he wails. DH can't rock him, or he wails. I feel like I've got to get a solution for this soon or I'll go crazy. I haven't had more than 2 hours of sleep in a row for at least four months!

So that's why I'm subbing to this thread! I need better ideas on how to make this work. It just makes me laugh because Pantley says in the book not to start this while the babe is teething or uncomfortable, but DS is always uncomfortable now with the constant teething, so I don't know how to start.







:


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## nubianamy (Jul 6, 2005)

Amanda, I hear you. Ivy is teething now (no teeth yet, but feverish, drooling, crying, pulling ears, etc... it's so sad). It seems to go in cycles, a few days on, a week off, etc. for the past two months. I sure hope she cuts some soon, but no sign.









Ivy has been getting to bed pretty late these days. It's hard because Tom works until 7 most nights. I intend to have her asleep by 8:30 but it ends up being more like 9:30 once she finally conks out. We are bad at the routine.







: Here's our routine:

- we eat dinner, Ivy plays on floor if she's happy, sits on our laps if she's fussy
- nurse
- run bath, take off clothes
- bath - I sing special bathtime songs, she plays with her bath toys
- pajamas and dipe
- descend into basement (where our bedroom is), white noise, lights on - read a book if she's not tired, skip it if she is (she's usually rubbing her eyes by now)
- nurse with lights on, on my lap, but don't let her fall asleep
- burp, I lay her down, turn off lights
- pat her back and shhh if she needs it
- if she's fussy, nurse some more and try again

I generally nurse her to sleep, then rock her to sleep if she wakes up before midnight, and nurse after that if she wakes.

Well, we've been trying to get her to fall asleep on her own, with the hope that it will help her calm herself in the night if she happens to wake (or half-wake). It seems to be working great -- she's sleeping longer stretches -- except that she isn't sleeping a very long night, only about 10 hours. Last night it was only 9:30-6:30.









She's been waking at 4 or 6 and wanting to play. I usually shush her back to sleep, whispering our cue words: "Shh shh shh, sleepy time now, shh shh shh" and nothing else, basically lying still and letting her go back to sleep. Sometimes it works, sometimes I end up nursing her down again.

This morning Tom really needed to sleep and she wouldn't go back to sleep, she was just crowing away, it was so cute!







So I took her upstairs in the dark and changed her dipe, then rocked her on the rocking chair and let her zone out looking at the computer screen saver (pictures of space, very pretty) while playing some lullabies on iTunes. She eventually calmed down and nursed back to sleep on my lap for an hour.

Anyway. I'm trying to get her to sleep longer at night. All the books I've read on sleep say to put them to bed earlier and they'll sleep later, but I'm desperately afraid it'll mean she'll be up at 5:30!









So tonight she had her last nap at 7, which is kind of late for a nap, but she was SO tired, she really needed it. I ate dinner while she was out (Tom is away for the weekend), and when she woke up, I skipped the bath and put her right into her pajamas and nighttime dipe. I turned off all the upstairs lights, going through our routine of saying goodnight to everything -- I watch what she's looking at and say, "Goodnight, fan... goodnight, kitty...." like that. Then down the stairs to bed. She was yawning and rubbing her eyes right away! I nursed her sitting up until she was full, not letting her drift off to sleep, and then burped her, and finally put her down on the bed and turned off the light.

This is when she usually starts to fuss and cry, and I pick her up, nurse a few more minutes, then try again... so on. But today she rolled back and forth onto her side, then her tummy, fussing a bit; I patted her back, and... she fell asleep! Woo! I sat there for a few minutes, watching, not quite believing it. This stuff works!









Now it's 35 minutes later and she's still asleep. We'll see... I'll report back.


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L'lee*

Maybe the moderators would be open to having a forum about sleep issues?


Hi all









This entire forum is intended to give you a place to discuss all sleep issues. I like the idea of a support thread (like this one) You may want to think of posting a monthly support thread so it doesn't get too long and daunting









Kelly


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## raspberryswirl (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamanurse*
For those of you struggling with the early bedtime and early rising, it's what we've been doing for months. Dd's "routine" includes:

6:30-Rise and shine
8:30-Naptime
1:00-Naptime
6:45-Sleeptime


Mamanurse, Did you always have an early routine? We are trying to up our routine from going to bed at 9:30 but what I've found is that my son is in the bed less hours. His overall time in bed now is b/t 10 & 11 hours (and he's sleeping less than that) when it used to be at least 12 hours. I'm just wondering if there was an adjustment period for you all.

thanks


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## raspberryswirl (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KathleenSLP*
Thanks for this thread. I am planning to buy the NCSS Toddlers book.

I was wondering if Pantley discusses increasing nap length? DD power naps in the morning and does well with a short nap. But if she has a short nap in the afternoon she's exhausted and needs an early bedtime. Does Pantley discuss this at all? Thanks.

I don't know about the toddler book, but the regular NCSS does address increasing nap times.

HTH


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## raspberryswirl (Sep 27, 2005)

Here's a lovely example of my woes...and this is a NEW woe since I've started all this NCSS crap...Gilbert has been waking up early, around 6:30 am even if he goes to sleep around 7:30 or 8:30 pm. I try to nurse him back to sleep but it only lasts as long as my boob is in his mouth. Today we made it to 7:10. (This is a baby that used to sleep all by himself until at least 9 in the morning!) At about 8:45 this morning he started showing signs of being sleepy so I put him in the Mei Tai as always and got him to fall asleep in our bedroom where he sleeps. He was only lightly asleep though. Lately I've been damned if I try to keep him in the Mei Tai until he's "really" asleep and I've been damned if I don't. He woke up while trying to put him from the Mei Tai to the bed so I used the ole fallback, I nursed him to sleep. He fell asleep, I unlatched him and stuck a binky in his mouth but he was restless so I started patting his butt. I patted his butt until my arm about fell off and he seemed pretty set. I got up and before I opened up the door he was whining and moving around. Patting didn't work this time, neither did nursing. He appeared to be awake so here he is playing by my side while I type! I just don't get it.

I'm open to hear advice from anyone, *just please don't suggest that it is teething or a growth spurt!* He's been going through that since he was 4 months old. LOL thanks


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## mamanurse (Jan 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *raspberryswirl*
Mamanurse, Did you always have an early routine? We are trying to up our routine from going to bed at 9:30 but what I've found is that my son is in the bed less hours. His overall time in bed now is b/t 10 & 11 hours (and he's sleeping less than that) when it used to be at least 12 hours. I'm just wondering if there was an adjustment period for you all.

thanks









We started putting Livi to bed early at the advice of our pediatrician. She was ACTUALLY right about this one thing.







Dd was screaming from about 7-10 or 11 when we put her to bed every night. We thought it was the typical colic. Gradually, we started to move her routine earlier and earlier. She's always woken up sometime between 6-7 no matter what time she goes to bed. As soon as she started going to bed earlier, the terrible inconsolable crying stopped.


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## nubianamy (Jul 6, 2005)

Update from last night... she woke 4x, which isn't too bad considering she's been feverish and hurting from teething. She woke 11:30, 12:45, then she woke at 4am to play... but since dh is away, I just let her play on the bed and she fell back asleep again (as did I) until 6, then nursed back to sleep until 7.

We went a bit earlier tonight, she was asleep by 7:45. That was after a VERY long 2 hour bout of napping from 3:30-5:30. We started bath time at 7 and she was still rubbing her eyes before we made it downstairs! I'm going to keep inching it back and see what happens.


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## nubianamy (Jul 6, 2005)

Question: How do you do the PPO if your baby falls asleep as soon as she gets the nipple in her mouth?? We always do the PPO but Ivy is so exhausted sometimes, she just zonks out in 5 seconds. My understanding is you're not supposed to let them fall asleep with the nipple, just wait until they're calm and flutter-sucking.


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## anonymous4_20 (Nov 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nubianamy*
Question: How do you do the PPO if your baby falls asleep as soon as she gets the nipple in her mouth?? We always do the PPO but Ivy is so exhausted sometimes, she just zonks out in 5 seconds. My understanding is you're not supposed to let them fall asleep with the nipple, just wait until they're calm and flutter-sucking.

I let him fall asleep and then pull-off while he's flutter sucking in his dreams. It's one of the only parts of NCSS that's been working for us. He will pull-off on his own now maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 times, but anything at all is an improvement. When we co-sleep, he used to stay on all night. Now I can pull him off without disturbing him almost every time. I'd say go ahead and do it even when she conks out right away--it's not going to hurt, and it might help.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

http://communications.fullerton.edu/...fety/sleep.htm

Found the above info on sleep deprivation. I don't think we parents were meant to be up all night.


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## martita (Apr 19, 2006)

We've been doing NCSS for about three months. 7.5 mo. old DD now has a bed routine that goes like this:

7:00 Walk
7:20 Reading
7:30 Bath, then lotion and pjs
7:40 Into the rocking chair for a last feeding (she's no longer nursing), followed by a gentle cuddle. She uses a pacifier.







:
By 8, her eyes are usually closing and if I catch it in time, I put her down just as she falls asleep.

The last few nights I have been trying to put her down awake and soothe her with back rubs and "hush hush" "night night" and "sleepy sleeps." Last night it took until 8:40...I can deal with that.

The problem is that she wakes at 3:30am. And is wide awake. One night I got her to go back to sleep on her own, but she usually ends up in bed with me until 6ish...But even so it take more than an HOUR to get eher back to sleep!

DH is away til October, so these wakings are all on me. (I wish the dog would help!)
My dream: asleep from 8pm until 6:30am.

Will getting her to fall asleep on her own help?


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Martita --

Welcome. Yes, I think getting her to sleep on her own will help. I used to nurse my baby to sleep. It took longer and longer and longer. Using the pacifier is kind of the same idea...they use sucking to go to sleep.

You could try Pantley's idea of PPO except with the pacifier...take it out when she's verrrry drowsy but not all the way asleep. She has more info on this process in the book. Sometimes it can take a while to make it work.

In Good Night Sleep Tight, the author would say to get the baby relaxed and then put her in her crib to learn how to fall asleep on her own while staying in the room to comfort (not cio). For us, once baby could fall asleep on her own, the nightwakings went down a lot.

Something I've been curious about is that a lot of folks here say that snuggling babies back to sleep and nursing them to sleep is a-okay. Maybe it is. I guess they outgrow that in 2-5 years. But I think they end up waking up more. Is that good for them or not? I don't know the answer...they would wake up more when they really need sleep for growing. Others would argue babies NEED to nurse for food and comfort. It's a topic that interests me as there seems to be such division over it....thinking out loud...


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## nubianamy (Jul 6, 2005)

Martita, my 5.5mo dd is waking between 4-5 and is ready to play, too.







It would be a pain in the a** if it wasn't so darn cute.







This morning she crawled over to my face and tried to nurse my nose, then rolled back against dh and snuggled him for a while... we were trying not to crack up.







I walked her for about 10 min when she gave herself hiccups. She fell back asleep a few times with nursing and sshhhing until we got up at 7:15.


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## Arwensmommy (Dec 3, 2005)

I got a copy of the NCSS from DH (bless his heart) but he didn't know I already had it (lol!). Anyway, so I have an extra copy and I know there are some ladies on here that would like to have the book but don't have the money. Let me know and I will send you the extra copy.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Arwen'smommy -- That is so sweet of you!

Nubianamy--Nursing your nose! Too cute.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Hi there. I'm Sarah, and I am sleep deprived. I currently cosleep with my 9 mo daughter and it's not working for us. She's taken over the bed so that my DH is sleeping on the couch, wakes me up every 2 hours or less to nurse, and goes through at least one restless spell every night that lasts over an hour during which I cannot sleep. I am going to go buy NCSS tomorrow.

...and she just woke up from her nap which only lasted 40 min. She had one other 40 min nap today and she sleeps from about 9 pm to 8:30 am... not quite enough I don't think...


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## nubianamy (Jul 6, 2005)

Sarah, there's a good article (which I can't seem to locate) about babies waking around 4mo and 8mo. It's basically about developmental milestones taking them over, and getting in the way of their sleep. My dd wakes in the middle of the night to practice crawling, so I completely understand what you're going through.







Hope NCSS gives you what you need.

Ivy got a tooth, so it was probably futile for me not to nurse her to sleep tonight, but we tussled with it for about an hour... I nurse, she drifts off, I put her down and burp her, she wakes up and cries, I pat her back, she cries harder, I give her a finger to suck, she calms, I PPO it, she cries more, I try more nursing, repeat, repeat, repeat.







She did eventually deal with the PPO-ing of the finger and zonk out. I should have probably given her Tylenol, poor dear.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Hi Spughy! I was just wondering of anyone else from the November DDC was dealing with this as well. I'm glad to see you, but not happy to see you *here*.









We are not having any reliable success with the attempts we've made, but DD is cutting her top tooth this week so I've been blaming the bad sleep on that. It seems pretty pointless to have high expectations while she's this uncomfortable. Also, she started walking last week, and I know that there is a correlation between milestones and sleeplessness, like you said nubianamy. So. Sigh. We just deal with it for now I guess.

I was really hoping for a miracle with NCSS but we haven't seen one yet. DD just seems to get more agitated at the whole PPO, and then it seems like she is even more insistent on the breast during her night wakings. Rather than waking and silently looking for the breast and latching on (like she used to), she now wakes and *immediately* starts vocalizing whether she's laying on me, next to me, or across the bed. It's not really a cry, or a whimper...more like a demand: "Ehhhhhhhhhhhr!!!!" So, yah. I don't know.

I'm sure top tooth #2 will be shortly following #1, so I'm not even thinking about getting back on a serious plan for the next couple of weeks. Right now I just feel like I need to give her what she needs, and since we've been doing NCSS, I've sort of been feeling like I'm not doing that. It's so hard though; I desperately want better sleep, but not at the cost of her emotional well-being. I guess what I really wish is that there was an easy solution.

Oh bla di, oh bla da, life goes on, girls.....la la how our life goes on....


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Hi Amy!

So, I don't have th e book yet but I think I have a fair idea of what the PPO entails - detaching the baby before she's really asleep, right? Well, what if your babe detaches herself quite nicely, rolls away and goes back to sleep on her own already? Does that mean I get to skip a step?









I know, I know, I need to read the book - we're heading to the bookstore as soon as the little bunny wakes up from her nap.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Spughy, um yes. So why are you here???







Sounds like Rowan has that part down already! Yeah, the PPO stands for Pantly Pull Off: removing the nipple before the babe is fully asleep. Brynn is actually doing that about 25% of the time on her own now, but our big hurdle is actually getting to (or back to) sleep without use of the nipple at all.

Last night I nursed her at the beginning of the bedtime routine and then again during book reading, and it definitely seemed to help. By 8:00 she was rolling around, obviously zonked, and wanting to go to sleep. I let her try it on her own for about 15 minutes even though she was obviously very weirded out by the feeling of almost falling asleep without the breast. Eventually she started fussing, then pre-crying, then finally crying...so I gave her the boob and she fell asleep instantly. (sigh) So my worry is that now if I try it again, she will go from fuss to cry within 10 minutes rather than 15, and then 5, etc., rather than learning that it's actually OK to just fall asleep on her own. Oh, I forgot to say, one thing that did help was *laying on my tummy* while she was trying to go to sleep. She had no idea where my breasts were, so she didn't spend the entire 15 minutes trying to latch on. So y'all might try that if you haven't already.

So here's my question to those of you who have passed this stage: how do I get her to actually let herself fall asleep without the breast? She's obviously full and tired, but how do we overcome the anxiety or just the weird feelings she's having? She does fall asleep occasionally in the backpack without a peep, and she will rarely fall asleep in the carseat, but she protests that until she can't fight it anymore (she still hates the carseat anyway). So although I think the idea of walking her around in the backpack every night is a little absurd, I don't have any other ideas.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Well last night was about the worst ever. We are going to try something new for sleepies tonight. I did the logging for NCSS last night and her wakeups are pretty ridiculous. You know how some small babies cluster-feed? Well, she's developed a way to cluster-wakeup. We went through two, two-hour zero-sleep-for-mom sessions last night. Waaaay too much for me to handle. I am so sleep-deprived today I can hardly see straight and had semi-random crying fits this morning so DH is going to sleep in the bedroom with her and I am going to sleep on the couch, after her first wakeup. I am ok with one or two nursing sessions during the night but he is on duty from midnight or whenever she wakes up til about 5. And she will be sleeping in her crib because I am not comfortable with DH sleeping next to her. He has a tendency to flail.

ETA: So yeah she doesn't exactly fall asleep on the boob, she gets nice and comfy, pops herself off, and goes to sleep instantly. And if we're putting her down in her crib or on the bed she doesn't have to be thoroughly asleep, just mostly, and she can be jostled a bit and still patted down to sleep. None of this makes her wake up any less - in fact she wakes up MORE since she's been less fussy about being really asleep when she goes down. Are we primed for NCSS failure?!?!?


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

OK I'm finally taking the plunge and joining.

I have a 5 month old daughter who is the joy of my life. That being said lol....she wakes up SO much. She slept perfect until 3.5 months or so (like we're talking 10 hours with no wake up, then nurse, then another 3) and the the drool started, and now its like she's about to cut teeth and she doesn't act in pain, she is just so restless. So I've officially been sleep deprived for 1.5 months.
At first I was a zombie, but now I'm kind of used to it, but SO tired still.

I try jostling the mattress when she wakes up instead of nursing, and most of the time it works! But still, fully waking up to do that is exhausting when its every hour. Some nights she goes 3 hours, but thats a lucky break.

I've eliminated diary and tried everything I can.

Oooo precious sleep.














:


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## chelsmm (Apr 10, 2005)

hi,
I'm joining you all....
My almost 11 month old dd wakes every 1-2 hours...all night long. I start the bedtime routine at around 8, and she's asleep by 9. Then, up by 9:30-10pm! It hardly seems worth it!

Do you all have bedtime routines?
How do you work that with dinner for the family? I fear that we will have to stop our family dinners, as dh doesn't get home until 7, dinner is finished by 8. I hate to give up that family time, as it is our ONLY family time.

As far as naps, dd only naps in the MT, and I have to be bouncing on the yoga ball. She stopped nursing to sleep about a month ago. I hoped it was a phase, but so far, no change... I can usually get about 90 min if I bounce the whole time. If I take her out of the sling...30 min nap.







:

Does anyone know if the NCSS actaully works?? It seems good in theory.

Chelsea


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

I guess it works for some people, but DD is apparently not in that group. I think the PPO is definitely not for us; it seems to be making things worse rather than better.

*ndunn*, I can relate; DD slept better as a newborn than she does now. How sad is that??!









*Spughy*, so sorry to hear about your rough night. We had a weird one last night too: Brynn slept from around 9:30 until 12:30, and then woke up and woulnd't go back to sleep, which is something we never have to deal with. I actually had to get her out of bed and take her into her room so we could read a couple of books, rock in the rocking chair, nurse, etc. Finally around 1:30 we went back to bed and she sloowwwwwwwwwwwwwwly went back to sleep around 2:15. I was DYING. Not to mention that she's getting that top tooth in so she wanted the nipple in her mouth every second, and my nipples ended up feeling like they've been through a meat grinder. It sucked. Anyway, I gave her some Tylenol when we were up and it apparently helped because she slepted from 2:15 until when we woke up around 7:45, so that was pretty great.

I just keep thinking once these top teeth come in, maybe things will change. Am I getting my hopes up foolishly? I guess only time will tell, but for now I'm going to stop the PPO and at least try to get her to not have PPO-Phobia anymore. Sigh. When does it end?

*Chelsmm*, our routine starts at 7:00 and we had to adjust our schedule so that we have dinner on the table at 6:30, which is definitely a challenge for our family!! Anyway, we just decided we have to do it that way, otherwise she totally melts down and it's very unpleasant. This way, she starts showing sleepy signs around 7:00, we either take a bath or sponge bath, read books, nurse, and then she kind of pounces all over the bed a bit, and then she nurses to sleep. She's usually out by 7:45 or 8:00, and then sleeps for an hour before waking briefly again. But that hour is nice! DH and I have time to chat, or do our own things and the house is nice and calm and quiet. I like our routine, but I just wish that we could overcome our biggest obstacle, which is the fact that DD needs to be nursed to get back sleep about 90% of the time.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Well, one of the suggestions in NCSS sure worked for us last night - I went to bed with DD at 9 - with her in her crib - and she woke up at 10:30 and I rocked her back to almost-sleep and put her back down in the crib, and she was out nicely. Then she woke up again at nearly 12, didn't seem content to be rocked back to sleep so I nursed her - sitting up in bed rather than lying down - and she had a good chug, I did the PPO no problem, put her back in her crib... and went to get DH (who sleeps on the couch these days) and we traded places. And I had SIX BLISSFUL HOURS of sleep while DH did the wakeup thing with Rowan. Who, aside from a restless up-down-up-down stretch between 1:30 and 2, slept through the rest of the night til 6. So DH wasn't too sleep-deprived either, which was nice. Unfortunately, after she woke up at 6 and had a good nurse, she only slept for another hour and then was all awake and perky at 7, when I was decidedly not perky. I tried to get her back to sleep by cuddling in bed but it didn't work. Oh well. I still feel more human today. Oh! and she woke up about 15 minutes after I settled her at 6, sat up, looked around, grabbed her monkey, settled it down in a different place, flopped down beside/on top of it, and went back to sleep. So she DOES know how to do it!









In answer to a pp - yes we have a bedtime routine. We've always more or less had one but since we instituted a more formal one she seems to go to sleep much faster. We put on jammies, brush teeth, put on the Enya CD, read some books, nurse, then Daddy carries her in his arms while singing the sleepy song. She's out within 5 minutes. We've started putting her in her crib before she's fully asleep and that's working pretty well - she rolls over onto her side and goes to sleep peacefully. Last night she was up again in 5 minutes but then went down again just as quickly.

Amy, maybe once she's over the trauma of the PPO you could try it again, but wait until much later (the point at which the nipple is almost out of her mouth anyway) to pull it out? I don't know, Rowan's always been pretty amenable to leaving the booby to sleep. She pops off by herself most of the time anyway.


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## stanswife (Jul 30, 2006)

We'd been doing the NCSS for a while, but with DS's teething I just can't do it anymore. I've resigned myself to a child-led approach even though it means less sleep for mama.







: I know others advocate that here anyway, but I think gentle guidance in this form is still okay.

What I can't figure out though, is that she (or someone) says that while they are teething it is not a good idea to try the NCSS. But aren't they teething pretty much until they're two? I'm a newbie mom, so I don't know, but... Maybe there is a window of time they aren't and then you pounce?









Good luck and I'll join you again at some point.


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## chelsmm (Apr 10, 2005)

Regarding the teething question...My dd seems to have times when she's teething pretty badly, I wouldn't do NCSS then. Right now she must be in between teeth or something, because she doesn't seem bothered by it. I think it goes in cycles. Ok, off to start our new bedtime routine...wish me luck! DH will make dinner while I put our little monkey to bed...I wonder if I'll get to have any of that dinner!?


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Our little bunny has a cold







Last night she didn't sleep so well because of her stuffy nose - she would snort and try to clear it and wake up more. But we did get bedtime back to 8 pm, which was good. She cried going to sleep but was out in her usual 5 minutes of sleepy song - I think she was crying because she was uncomfortable. But between 8 and 12:30 she was up at least every hour. After I switched off with DH he only had to pick her up twice but she woke up a lot more. But he said he was able to get her back to sleep just singing, without picking her up, so that's progress. I'm not expecting too much over the next few days because of the sniffles.


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## 1babysmom (May 22, 2006)

Can I join this thread? I'm doing the NCSS with my 6 month old DD Ivey. We're about 3 weeks into it, but we're just doing one thing at a time. (FWIW, we co-sleep and BF)

For the first 2 weeks my goal was an earlier bedtime, since my DD is constantly going going going and never really went to bed for the night until 10:30-11 (she'd fall asleep numerous times before that after 8 pm, but it'd be like a nap for her- once she'd wake, she was ready to play). So for 2 weeks I put her to bed around 8, and we've been pretty successful. However, I'm afraid it's not going to last because we do a youth Bible study on wed. nights and that one night off seems to be enough to ruin every other night. So now I'm wondering if it's really worth this extra effort to stay home, not do anything EVERY evening just to get her to bed by 8...because other than that, she sleeps well, she happy, she's healthy, etc. Anyway...

We also do a nightime routine every night now. Dinner, quiet play, bathtime, PJ's, book, BF'ing, bed... I've tried to stick with it no matter what, even if we don't get around to it until 9:30-10 at night, I still go through each step really quick. I can tell a difference in the way she sleeps (and falls asleep) if we ever skip the routine!!

But we haven't really started working on lessening night wakings, though. DD went through a stage for a few months where she only woke once at 3-4 am. to eat, but slept the rest of the time (this was when bedtime was at 10:30). Now she's back to waking about 4 times a night, on average (then again, usually about 2 of those are after we put her down early- around 8). I've been trying the PPO and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

That's where my question lies...does anyone else here have a high-needs baby? My DD was VERY colicky for the first 3.5 months, and she's still pretty high-needs most of the time (getting better day by day, though). I've read the difference in how high needs babies sleep on Dr. Sears website, so I wonder how that plays into the NCSS. Like when I unlatch her she goes NUTS rooting around and then just cries if I don't give her the boob back, and we can repeat this 10-15 times and never see an improvement. Not to mention she won't ever fall asleep unless she's hooked to the boob. Period. (granted, sometimes DH can get her to fall asleep after she's been awake for hours and hours and then he takes her for walk outside or somethign...but that doesn't happen on a regular basis). Any other efforts (rocking, etc) just end up in hours on end of screaming.









So anyway, that's my novel...and the story of my life.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1babysmom*
does anyone else here have a high-needs baby? My DD was VERY colicky for the first 3.5 months, and she's still pretty high-needs most of the time (getting better day by day, though). I've read the difference in how high needs babies sleep on Dr. Sears website, so I wonder how that plays into the NCSS. Like when I unlatch her she goes NUTS rooting around and then just cries if I don't give her the boob back, and we can repeat this 10-15 times and never see an improvement.

Yep, us too. DD has fallen asleep a few times in the carseat, and a few times in the backpack, but that's it other than being attached to the breast. And like your DD, if I take the nipple away before she's ready to let go, she will root, fuss, and cry until she is latched back on. That's why I've basically given up on the PPO (see previous posts on that). I definitely think it has to do with temprement; doesn't Dr. Sears talk about a persistent baby and how he/she won't give up no matter how many times you do it? That's DD all the way. She just gets MORE angry, and that definitely doesn't seem to help the situation. I've thought a lot about it, and decided that as far as this goes, I will just follow her lead and try to provide what she needs to the best of my abilities!

But the good news is, despite not doing the PPO very often, I think it is starting to work, if slightly. Last night she went to sleep at 8:00 and rather than waking at her usual 45 minute or one hour interval, she slept for over two hours before waking again. I latched her on immediately, and she barely took two sucks before falling asleep again. And the best part was that before the first two hours had elapsed, I saw her reposition herself, lift her head, and then go back to sleep ON HER OWN. It actually happened 2-3 times within a 15 minute window, and still, she didn't try to root for Mama. This is progress, people!!







After that point, I think she slept pretty well until around 5:30 (possibly waking up once to reposition and cuddle with me, but not to nurse!) and then I think her tender gums got the best of her, and she became pretty restless. So I got her up, gave her some tylenol, changed the dipe, and we went back to sleep. I woke up feeling so happy and hopeful again, and I really needed that. So yay, at least things are looking up. Oh, one thing that I really think makes a difference in her ability to go back to sleep on her own is how she is positioned: she seems to do *much* better if she is sleeping on her tummy. So that's what I'm going to keep trying from now on. I mean, she is 9 months old so I really don't think there is any danger of SIDS at this point. Plus, I'm a tummy sleeper and always have been, so it makes sense to me that she would be more comfortable that way.

Anyway, 1babysmom, it definitely sounds like your baby wants the later bedtime. Not to try to give advice, but if that works for her, maybe you should go with it. I know the book says early early early, but it also says to choose bedtime based on your baby's cues. I hope you find whatever works best for her!


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## 1babysmom (May 22, 2006)

Amy, that's awesome! My DD has put herself back to sleep maybe 3 times total, and I could live for those times! LOL Sounds like you're definately making progress!!

I've noticed the same thing about tummy sleeping. Maybe I should put more effort into having her sleep on her tummy, because she definately sleeps sounder that way (most of the time, anyway). I'm a tummy sleeper, too.

BTW- love your daughters name.







That's my name, too!


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Really?? I've never met another Brynn - just heard of them through friends. It's the most beautiful name ever.









One little note on tummy sleeping - what I've done the past couple of nights is nurse her to sleep in whatever position she's in (side-laying, cradle position, whatever) and then wait til she's in a deep sleep and put her on her tummy. This seems to work better than trying to lay her down when she's not-quite asleep; if I do this, she will automatically get up on hands and knees and start to crawl around, then we have to start the whole process over again!

Spughy, sorry to hear about Rowan's sniffles. I hope it passes soon and you are all back on track.


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## anonymous4_20 (Nov 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1babysmom*
That's where my question lies...does anyone else here have a high-needs baby? My DD was VERY colicky for the first 3.5 months, and she's still pretty high-needs most of the time (getting better day by day, though). I've read the difference in how high needs babies sleep on Dr. Sears website, so I wonder how that plays into the NCSS. Like when I unlatch her she goes NUTS rooting around and then just cries if I don't give her the boob back, and we can repeat this 10-15 times and never see an improvement. Not to mention she won't ever fall asleep unless she's hooked to the boob. Period. (granted, sometimes DH can get her to fall asleep after she's been awake for hours and hours and then he takes her for walk outside or somethign...but that doesn't happen on a regular basis). Any other efforts (rocking, etc) just end up in hours on end of screaming.


















That's my DS, too. Very high-needs. I think there are probably a lot of us on this thread. At least two or three wakings a night happen because he needs to pass gas and can't seem to do it alone.







: We called it colic for the first 3.5 months, too, but then we resigned ourselves to labeling it "high-needs." It's better than the early days of constant screaming, but it's still rough. There's no way on earth he's going to go to sleep without a boob in his mouth unless he's in his carseat. We've been on step 1 for two or three months now. The only improvement so far is that sometimes he will let me pop him off once he's asleep. Never while he's awake, though.


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## 1babysmom (May 22, 2006)

Oh, one thing I forgot to ask...does anyone have a "boob holder?" If I'm lucky enough to sneak my nipple away from her (LOL...that sounds funny), if she's not totally zonked, she usually starts fussing around until she can hold onto my boob. And if I move, she comes searching until she finds it again. I've tried taking my shirt off so at least she'd still have something right beside her that smells like me, but I can't find something to adequately replace the boob.


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

So last night was awful. She went down at 8pm, nursed to sleep after her bath and songs, no fuss. Since we wern't ready for bed we put her down and took a shower and then she woke at 9:15. She fell asleep nursing again at 9:45 no problem. After there its a blur. I usually estimate how often she's woken up on whether I have full breasts or not, because i know if I wake up empty, she's been nursing, or it hasnt been that long! I think she was up twice between 10 and 2, and then every hour after that. And it wasn't just up once, she was back asleep nursing then she'd stir herself awake 3 min later, and she'd repeat that like 6 times before she'd go down again for another hour.







:
Finally I put her in her sidecarred crib on her tummy and she slept more like 1.5 hours, but I tried patting her back to sleep when she woke and she just got mad. If I take the boob away she just shoves her face into the mattress and roots around looking for it. When she decides she's done nursing then she pops off and rolls onto her back from her side and goes to sleep. Thats the only way it works.

Spughy - How are you lucky enough to have a DH that will do that !? I don't know if my DH would go for that unless he was on a day off. I envy you! Do you think using the crib has helped? Ours is sidecarred to our bed, but I thought perhaps putting it on the otherside of the room would help because sometimes when I'm fed up and go sleep downstairs, she sleeps like 5 hours next to DH. What is it my smell or something ? Just how far can they possibly smell!


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ndunn*
Spughy - How are you lucky enough to have a DH that will do that !? I don't know if my DH would go for that unless he was on a day off. I envy you! Do you think using the crib has helped? Ours is sidecarred to our bed, but I thought perhaps putting it on the otherside of the room would help because sometimes when I'm fed up and go sleep downstairs, she sleeps like 5 hours next to DH. What is it my smell or something ? Just how far can they possibly smell!









I know, my DH is AWESOME. But I do think she sleeps better for him than for me. I think it is the proximity of the delicious boobies - would you sleep if someone was constantly waving, say, doughnuts near your face? Mmmmmm doughnuts... But I digress. I think the crib + DH has helped for the latter part of the night. Ours isn't side-carred, it's just about 6 inches away from the bed. DH can reach out and touch her when she's in it; my arms aren't quite that long. I feel much more comfortable with her in the crib than in bed with DH, and his movements don't wake her up. However, I must admit that she is up just as many times for me in the crib as she was in the bed. So far. However, I sleep much better between wakeups without her in the bed so it's a success on one level, at least. I love the idea of cosleeping but I am just not a cuddly person at night and I am such a light sleeper that every little twitch wakes me up, so it was just not working for me at all. I can't believe I actually did it for 6 months...


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spughy*
Mmmmmm doughnuts... But I digress.









:


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

mmmm doughnuts

Well I swear lily sleeps better for my Dh as well. I don't know WHAT it is, but when I"m out of the room she sleeps. I'm a light sleeper too so I get woken up so easily. I've been so tired lately though I sleep through the nursings.
I'm going to ask my DH about doing shifts.


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## anonymous4_20 (Nov 3, 2005)

It's funny that some of you are stopping co-sleeping and finding it helps. We're starting it and finding it helps! I've been bringing him into bed at 3 or 4 in the morning and he sleeps 5 hours or so, rooting around once or twice to take a quick snack. I'd do it all night if I could, but I have shoulder problems and can't lie on my side that long.

Amy, where is the only sane place in Ohio? I'm pretty sure it's not Cleveland!


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## nubianamy (Jul 6, 2005)

Mmmm, doughnuts.









It's amazing how much the routine matters. Tonight I started it early because I had a meeting at 6:30. We nursed, then bathed, then I put her in her jammies, and she was rubbing her eyes big time. But then I put her on the floor (NOT in the routine). And she was awake! Playtime! We went to the meeting and she was happy awake girl for an hour. Then I came back home (just across the street, yay cohousing), we went downstairs to the bedroom, I put on the white noise, put her on the bed and boom, rubbing her eyes again! Amazing thing, that routine. We nursed and she quieted right down, I put her down, turned off the light, gave her a pinky to suck on and she went to sleep in about 20 seconds. (Sometimes she needs that pinky, sometimes not.)

That was about 80 minutes ago; she hasn't woken, which is a good sign!







:


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## ce&e (Jun 30, 2006)

Hi
i hope that it's never too late to join this thread as I'm in desperate need of it! My ds, Egan, is almost 10 months old, breastfeeding and sleping just about everywhere, including his crib, our bed,his sling and his swing each night. He was a super high needs infant (basically cried for the first 5 months despite lots of aping) We read NCSS at 5 months and tried it and it seemed to be helping some. Then... we had a move and lots of transitory situations for about 4 months. We are now settled in our new home and desperately trying to get back on track. My dh is awesome and we switch off all the time but it's been really rough. he just had tooth number 4 emerge and we are hoping for a break sometime soon. so that's our background and just wanted to say I'm thankful for the opportunity for help and support on this crazy journey towards sleep!


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anonymous4_20*
It's funny that some of you are stopping co-sleeping and finding it helps. We're starting it and finding it helps! I've been bringing him into bed at 3 or 4 in the morning and he sleeps 5 hours or so, rooting around once or twice to take a quick snack. I'd do it all night if I could, but I have shoulder problems and can't lie on my side that long.

I started cosleeping because DD seemed to sleep better that way too - at around 3 months (maybe a little before?) It worked beautifully until she hit about 8 months. Then it was all downhill. I think it's one of those things that sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and you have to be flexible enough to go either way.

ETA: DD had super-crappy naps today, so I expect tonight will be absolute hell. And she refused to eat most of her dinner too. Bah. Not looking forward to this evening... at least I had a chiro appt today so my back should be up to at least 4 rock-to-sleep sessions...


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Well I guess when a baby has a cold, it is time to put NCSS on hold. DD would NOT sleep last night except in our arms. With us upright. So we each got a 5 hour shift of real sleep and a 5 hour shift of uncomfortable propped-up sitting "sleep". Could have been worse. She still woke up every hour or more with snuffles and made little Bill the Cat noises until her nose was clear enough for her to go back to sleep. Poor little bunny.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Awww. Poor darlin.







:


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

We had a so-so night last night. She went down at 8:45 with a bit of fuss, slept until 9:30 and then wouldnt go back to sleep. It took until 11:30 but then my DH put her in the basinette like 5 feet from our bed and she slept 3 hours! woo hoo
Then it was 2, then woke every hour after that. Woke up for the day at 8.

I'm sleepy.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

OK something very odd just happened. DD napped from 9:45 til 10:30 this morning, and then again from 1:15 til around 2:00. When she woke up at 2:00, I let her nurse to see if she wanted to go back to sleep, but she seemed ready to get up. I decided to make lunch so I tried putting her down, which resulted in her total dissolve into tears; same with the baby backpack. I did't want to use the sling (too hard to make lunch with her in the hip carry) so I pulled downthe Snuggli, which wa haven't used in months, and she happily went into it, and fell asleep again about 20 minutes later. I guess she's still tired and/or not feeling well (still from those top teeth?) but wow, it was just really surprising. Poor punkin. Maybe I should wear her in the Snuggli every night at the end of our bedtime routine though, huh?


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Amy, can you get DD out of the Snugli without waking her up thoroughly? That might be something to think about...

I seem to have caught DD's cold. boo.







:


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## 1babysmom (May 22, 2006)

Well, I'm not sure if today's progress will carry over or not, but I'm celebrating the little milestones!!

Right now I'm working on getting her used to sleeping in her crib. We're not ready to stop co-sleeping, but I want her to be able to fall asleep (and fall BACK to sleep) on her own sometimes and not be so dependent on me. So I've been putting her in her crib for all of her naps, and she actually took a long one earlier today...like almost an hour!! Usually she only naps for 30 min. or so. And the coolest thing...I watched her sort of wake up, and she went back to sleep!! We haven't even been working on that!!!


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anonymous4_20*
Amy, where is the only sane place in Ohio? I'm pretty sure it's not Cleveland!









Yellow Springs! No, definitely not Cleveland.

Yay for you and DD, 1babysmom!!


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the past three nights have been miserable. She's gotten back into the routine of waking every ~2 hours and MUST be attached to the breast. This is getting SO hard, I'm just so tired all the time. I feel like I want to cry. I think the part that's so frustrating is that I know that she is capable of better sleep patterns, I just don't know what causes a good night versus a bad one. There is NO relationship between her sleep and her daily naps, activity, bedtime, what we eat, etc. I guess it just be the alignment of the stars or something. Seriously, is this ever going to end??


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

I'm sorry Amy! I know how you feel. I actually HAVE spent a few days bursting into tears randomly because I was so tired.

Can your DH take her for one night so you can get at least one night of real sleep? That made all the difference in the world for me.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

I think that's what we're going to try next. DH is totally willing - in fact, he's been suggesting this for months - but I am really skeptical because Brynn is just not consoled by him at night; she cries more and more urgently until I come to her rescue. He suggested that we just let her cry and that he'll be with her so it will be OK, but it just seems like CIO to me, whether one of us is there with her or not. If any of you have any tips on how to attempt this, I would love to hear them. I think I will pump some breastmilk and have it ready in a sippy cup, but that's really about all I can do. We probably won't attempt it til this weekend; DH actually has a job and has to be somewhat alert during the day.







Maybe Friday night...


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

I don't know if I have any useful tips. Rowan is pretty consolable by either of us - she will actually go to sleep faster for DH using the singing-carrying method than she will for me. That's really the only thing I can suggest - get your DH to sing quietly to her while he carries her around. It works for us, but if Brynn is too addicted to boobies it might not work for you. And sometimes Rowan does cry a little going to sleep when not on the booby - we've just learned the difference between "I wanna be asleep" cry and "I want the booby" cry. Can you nurse her while you're walking around? That might be a good in-between step, get her accustomed to motion while going to sleep. I find it a bit awkward but I have done it on occasion. It's a bit rough on the back so take some ibuprofen ahead of time









At the back of NCSS I did notice that Pantley does recommend crying in-arms as a last-resort thing. And it's NOT the same thing as CIO, but I know it would feel like it for me if Rowan cried for me while DH was holding her (which she doesn't really...) I don't know if I'd do it, honestly.







I'm sorry, that's not much help is it?


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

So last night......She slept 3.5 hours and then another 3! Then after that she was up after 2, then every hour after that. She went down at 9:30pm and woke up for the day at 8:45! Usually its 8, so I was grateful for the extra 45!
We've been doing the basinette for the first stretch, and that does seem to help her sleep longer. Now that she's used to sleeping a bit longer in her bed, it seems like she is more able to do it in our bed.

PPO works great for us now too. She's really getting used to it.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Last night we put Rowan in her crib after her middle-of-the-night feed (which we think was around 3 but neither of us really checked) and she slept until 7! Yay! Tonight she'll go in her crib right off the bat and we'll see how that goes. Her cold is pretty much finished so she's not waking up because of snuffles anymore.

I have to say, I think the crib is really working out well. I'm happy, but I'm kind of sad I couldn't make cosleeping really work for us. But I guess if the crib is 6 inches from our bed she's still sort of cosleeping, right?


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

_I have to say, I think the crib is really working out well. I'm happy, but I'm kind of sad I couldn't make cosleeping really work for us. But I guess if the crib is 6 inches from our bed she's still sort of cosleeping, right?_

I've been lurking on this thread, but just wanted to say that not all kids sleep better in the bed with mom and/or dad. That doesn't mean that you are any less an AP family. It's not that you "couldn't make cosleeping work for you", you're truly responding to your baby's individual needs and that's the most precious gift of all. And, it's called "sleep sharing" rather than "bed sharing"!


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktmama*
_I have to say, I think the crib is really working out well. I'm happy, but I'm kind of sad I couldn't make cosleeping really work for us. But I guess if the crib is 6 inches from our bed she's still sort of cosleeping, right?_

I've been lurking on this thread, but just wanted to say that not all kids sleep better in the bed with mom and/or dad. That doesn't mean that you are any less an AP family. It's not that you "couldn't make cosleeping work for you", you're truly responding to your baby's individual needs and that's the most precious gift of all. And, it's called "sleep sharing" rather than "bed sharing"!

Clap, clap, clap. Soooo true. My baby sleeps better by herself. I was a little sad about just *how* well she slept without me, but that's life.


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## Telle Bear (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrant*
is ncss pretty straight forward?? library doesnt have it and no $$ to buy it.

I don't think I am allowed to mention other web sites but I am in the process of "BIDDING" for mine by the "bay"....


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Just shoot me now.

Last night we attempted to let DD sleep in our bed with DH and I went to sleep in the guest bedroom. That lasted about 30 minutes. When she woke up, she fussed a little and it sounded like she might go for soothing by Daddy. But no. She cried and cried and I really don't think she would have settled down with him at all, so I went in and picked her up, and she stopped crying *instantly*. It was like a cartoon. We kind of laughed, but also talked about the fact that it's not really a great thing that I am the ONLY person who can soothe and comfort her, especially at night. I think it has to do with the fact that DH travels so much for work, somethimes 2-3 weeks at a time. Also last night, I bathed DD and handed her over to DH for the bedtime routine while I bathed the dog, and he said that DD cried the whole entire time until I came upstairs.









That was all just *pre*-bedtime! During the night, she did have a couple (2-3?) episodes of cuddling back to sleep rather than nursing, but she also was INCREDIBLY ridiculously restless and fussy, as though something was hurting her. I took off her jammies at one point, but that wasn't it. The only thing I can guess is that maybe that second top tooth is now pushing down, but I don't see it getting ready to break the gums yet. The thing is though, she is *fine* during the day, so I haven't been giving her any Tylenol lately. I did giver her teething tabs last night right at bedtime, and they make zero difference. What a joke!

At this point, I'm so tired and hopeless, there's nothing to do but give in and live with it until we get through it.


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## anonymous4_20 (Nov 3, 2005)

Amy, I feel your pain. I feel everybody's pain, actually. We seem to be making little to no progress. He's back to sleeping a "long" stretch of 2 or 2 1/2 hours from about 10 to midnight, which is good, I guess. But from 12 to about 4 he's up at least every hour. At 4 I bring him in bed with us, and he sleeps a bit better. We sleep there from 4 to about 8 or 9 and he's usually hooked on the boob the whole time. I keep trying to stay awake enough to do the PPO, but I'm so tired by that point that I don't know if I'm accomplishing it or not. He keeps his head on my arm whether he's hooked on or not, so I can't really tell if he's popping off. He re-hooks maybe 3 times during the morning co-sleeping stretch. There's no teething going on now, although it seems about to start again. I think he just got into a habit of waking because he teethed literally all summer long, and now he can't break his habit.







I'm starting to get worried that it's getting so much worse. The last time I saw my pediatrician, he told me that I was creating a monster who would have "permanent sleep issues" because I wasn't letting him CIO. I know he's wrong about the CIO, but I keep hearing that "permanent sleep issues" phrase in my brain!







:


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Amanda and Amy,







.

Amy - so sorry the DH thing didn't work for you. I think you are probably right about it being because he goes away so often. My DH is around constantly (he is a grad student, just finishing his thesis) and he spends almost as much time with DD as I do, so I think that really helped us.

Amanda - your ped. is a crackpot. You won't create permanent sleep issues by comforting your baby at night. You WILL create permanent sleep issues (nightmares, etc.) by letting your baby CIO. Just remember that









I feel almost bad sharing this, but Rowan slept the whole night in her crib and woke up once, just before 4, for a feed, then went back to sleep until 7:30. She snorted and snuffled and repositioned herself and got herself comfy and not once did she need my help to do it. I hope this is the start of some good nights for us - I'm not silly enough to think that all our sleep issues are "solved" but I think it's a really good start. Of course, I spent the first part of the night waking up at every little twitch and sniffle and expecting her to need to be picked up. Then around 2 am I got smart, stuck my earplugs in and went to sleep until she *really* needed me!


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Yay Rowan! Yay Sarah!

So what do you attribute the success too? The fact that you have a crib? I feel like I need to go back and read all of your posts and see exactly what y'all did.

We don't have a crib or a co-sleeper though, so our options are kind of limited. We do have a pack'n'play, and I have thought about bringing that upstairs to our room, but I'm just not sure if it would make a difference.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Here's what we did: I recognized that cosleeping was not working for me, to start. That was a big mental hurdle for me. But it wasn't just the waking, it was the wiggling and whacking that kept me awake even while she was sleeping. So we got a crib from next door (our reservoir of baby-item-goodness) and set it up in our bedroom. First we started putting her down for naps in there and that worked ok. Then we started the classic NCSS thing of not letting her nurse fully to sleep and putting her down when she wasn't fully asleep. That seemed to work ok too. Then we started on the nighttime stuff. We'd put her down - in the crib - and she'd wake up an hour later. I'd rock her back almost to sleep and put her down again. Repeat every hour until 1, when she was actually hungry. I nursed her and then DH took over for me and I took his place on the couch. We did this for a couple of nights with some gradual improvement for the last part of the night, and then Rowan got sick and started waking up even more because of her snotty nose. Then I got sick too and we abandoned the plan altogether and Rowan slept on the couch on DH's lap. He slept sort of sitting up holding her, so her head was a bit elevated and she didn't get as congested. The first night or two she still woke up all the time and I nursed her in the middle of the night when she needed it, but the rest of the time I slept in the bed, snorting myself awake every couple of hours too. But after a couple of nights as Rowan got better she started sleeping longer and longer stretches on DH. He kept doing it because I still felt crappy and needed all the sleep I could get. Then two nights ago she slept through until 5 am on DH's lap without waking. The next night after she nursed at around 3 I put her in the crib and she slept through til 7. The following night (last night) I just put her in the crib to start and she slept fine.

I think what happened is that she got out of the "must booby back to sleep" routine and learned to sleep better. Sleeping on DH's lap probably helped - I worried when we did it that it would set us back a lot but I think it actually helped her learn to go back to sleep, because DH is a pretty sound sleeper and wouldn't have necessarily woken up every time she stirred. Also, she would have borne some of the "responsiblility" for getting herself comfy on DH and so learned to do it that way. I'm just guessing here of course. It's always possible she just sort of grew out of the waking... but I doubt it. Anyway, we didn't exactly follow the NCSS plan, but I guess we did follow the concepts somewhat and it worked. The main thing was getting her out of the "sleep next to mum, booby to sleep" routine. And it would have taken a whoooole lot longer if DH hadn't helped to the extent that he did. He is my hero.

If I were you I would give the crib/playpen a try. And try getting her to sleep nursing AND doing something else as well - either carrying/rocking or maybe singing? She would probably react better to the PPO if there was something else familiar and sleep-associated happening at the same time. It'll probably take a while though.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Here I was about ready to throw in the towel, and now I have renewed hope again. (Is that a good or bad thing?) I did go back and read all of your posts, but thanks for posting a summary message. I think one thing you definitely have going for you is that Rowan will sleep with her daddy. I'm still not so sure about this one with Brynn. DH and I talked today about gradually getting her more comfortable with being soothed by him at night, but I think it will be a learning process. Then maybe we can move on to the next step, which would be the pack and play or a crib. Shoot I know so many mamas around here, someone is sure to have a crib or co-sleeper in storage.

I'm on the fence about letting go of the co-sleeping in general. I think a part of me YEARNS to sleep without being touched by anyone (sorry, DH!) but I think there is a part of me that would miss the cuddling. Maybe a good compromise would be to try to get in a good stretch of sleep with Brynn in a crib or co-sleeper, and then have her come to bed with me in the early a.m. or something. Yah, that's assuming she ever sleeps long enough to transition out of the bed at all!!

Anyway, I was noticing the dates on your posts, and it's only been a couple of weeks since you've really been actively working towards this, and that included several days of Rowan being sick! So I think that's great.


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

Hows it going for everyone?

Lily has started a new thing about not going to bed until 12am and then waking like 5 times and screaming every 5 minutes after nursing to sleep. Then finally on about the 6th time she goes down for the night. Tres bizarre, and i can't figure out why.


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## 1babysmom (May 22, 2006)

Man, I don't know what happened, but we've made a HUGE accomplishment in the past 2 days!! For the past 3 nights and all naps in between, DD has fallen withOUT having to be at the breast!! That's BIG, gals, because before 3 nights ago, she couldn't fall asleep any other way than nursing!!

I guess it all started with DH having to put her to bed 3 nights ago. I wasn't feeling well so he had to take over for a bit, and he just got her to sleep!! He laid in bed with her and rubbed her back and talked to her and she DID fuss a bit, but no "crying", and in a few minutes she was out! So I worked really hard that next day for all her naps to nurse her but take her off the breast to fall asleep (sometimes PPO, sometimes rocking, etc.). Worked each time with minimal to no fussing! And it's continued ever since...even *I* got her to sleep tonight with out nursing her down!!

SO this is a huge step for us! I'm thrilled! Now I don't feel so worried about if anyone else ever has to put her to sleep, or if something were to happen to me it wouldn't be so stressful to DH to have to figure out how to put her down with no crying! (I know, that's silly, but I'm constantly trying to prepare him in case I die or something...is that nuts?!!?)


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## nubianamy (Jul 6, 2005)

I guess I'm just not ready for NCSS. DD is only 6mo, but personally, I like waking up in the middle of the night to nurse. I just don't like doing it more than a few times a night. I don't see her much during the day, and it's a chance for me to spend some time cuddling with her. I know there will be times during her development when she will wake a lot at night, and other times when she will sleep longer. I'd rather be in bed and not have to get up, even if she wakes more times during the night than a baby who sleeps in a crib.

BUT -- she does sleep a lot longer stretches if she doesn't nurse to sleep when she first goes to bed. The routine really helps. When she doesn't get the routine, she wakes more frequently at night. When she does, I can usually count on her sleeping at least 3 and as many as 7 hours before waking to nurse. That's fine with me, for now.


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## nubianamy (Jul 6, 2005)

The patting to sleep is an amazing thing!! I saw them doing it at day care and it works like a charm. I can't believe how quickly she'll go to sleep if I'm patting her, either her front or her back! I wonder what it is?

Also, those sleep cue words really work too! We've been using "ssh shh, sleepy time now" for about a month and when she hears it, she closes her eyes within seconds.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Woohoo! Congratulations 1babysmom!

The cue words and the routine do really work wonders. We've had some rocky "starts" to our nights lately - some waking up half an hour after she goes to bed, but aside from that we're doing pretty well too.


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## anonymous4_20 (Nov 3, 2005)

Well, the cue words aren't working for us at all. They just seem to wake him up. I'm doing them when Pantley says to--right as he's falling asleep. How does this work for those of you having success?


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

I say them when she finishes nursing before going to sleep - she'll try to get off my lap as usual, and I just pull her close and say "ok, we're going sleepies now" and she seems to understand and settles right away and sort of gurgles herself to sleep. A month ago if someone told me that she could do that I would have laughed so hard...


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spughy*
I say them when she finishes nursing before going to sleep - she'll try to get off my lap as usual, and I just pull her close and say "ok, we're going sleepies now" and she seems to understand and settles right away and sort of gurgles herself to sleep. A month ago if someone told me that she could do that I would have laughed so hard...


I AM laughing that hard!







There's no way Lily would do that.

Last night she was up between 3-5am and wanting to play. I think its her trying to crawl phase that is waking her up, because she's trying SO hard, I feel for her. She's also gotten REALLY good at rolling across the whole room the past two weeks, and I think she wakes up wanting to practice that. It was cute she was on the other side of the bed last night and she woke up and wanted to nurse and I looked at her and she smiled and rolled back front back front back front all the way across the bed until she reached me. Cute. Even at 3am.

In the past week we've had some 4-6 hour stretches using the basinette for the first stretch. We put it about 5 feet from our bed. I just feel so bad putting her there and sometimes its hard to sleep for me because I worry about her breathing. I know, a little unfounded SIDS paranoia.

Josh has been putting her to sleep by walking her after I give her a good nurse and that seems to help too.

The problem is, she goes down at 8pm. This has started to become a nap for her because we dont like to go to bed that early. So what happens is she wakes up at 9:15 or so and then wont go back down until like 11:30 and fights sleep. So should I just cave and go to sleep at 8? We did that last night and it worked ok. She went down at 8pm then up at 9pm then slept 9:15-3am. If I put her down to sleep in our room and I don't get to her right when she stirs, I cant get her back down until after 11.

hmm...


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

You guys are killing me!! But I am happy for you, and it does give me hope. Brynn's second top tooth is coming in right now, so I'm not really trying anything new. I figure that we'll try to get back into the swing in a week or so after it cuts through the gums. It's really horrible right now though, I will say that. DH has been sleeping in the guest bed frequently this week, and I'm just trying to hang in there.







:


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## 1babysmom (May 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anonymous4_20*
Well, the cue words aren't working for us at all. They just seem to wake him up. I'm doing them when Pantley says to--right as he's falling asleep. How does this work for those of you having success?

DD does the same, so we have to stick with "Shhhhh". Actual words all mean "playtime" to her.









And FWIW, DD isn't cutting any teeth yet, so I'm probably just getting lucky atm. Teething will probably start us all over again.

Has anyone NOT had difficult nights during teething?


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1babysmom* 
Now I don't feel so worried about if anyone else ever has to put her to sleep, or if something were to happen to me it wouldn't be so stressful to DH to have to figure out how to put her down with no crying! (I know, that's silly, but I'm constantly trying to prepare him in case I die or something...is that nuts?!!?)


I thought I was the only one with those secret thoughts! I always show him where her current batch of clothes that fit are, how they are arranged, how to give her Tylenol and how much, etc. because I think, what if something happened? Would he know what to do? I thought I was kind of freaky for thinking that, so it makes me feel better that you do too.









Anyway, tonight was a breakthrough for us: Brynn went to sleep without nursing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!















:














:

It wasn't exactly *easy*, but it wasn't really all that bad, either. We did the bath, then jammies, then nursed in her room, and then went into our bed and read a story. She nursed again, but I did the PPO and she fussed, so I let her latch back on, and within about a minute, so popped herself off and rolled over. Then she kind of tossed around for a minute, at which point I would have usually just given her the breast again, but I decided to wait it out. She was sort of half-awake and chattering to herself quietly, kind of crawling around and laying on me which was actually kind of cute. Then DH got home from a 3-day trip and she of course wanted to play with him, but he just layed quietly in bed with us, using the new cue words, "Close your eyes, it's time for sleep now," and she continued to try to entice him to play, and then showered him with kisses and cuddles. It was wonderful.







Anyway, we all just layed there for about 30 minutes while she wound herself down. I could see that she was really ready for sleep, and then she began feeling really uncomfortable with the sensation of sleepiness without nipple, so she began protesting pretty convincingly. We held in there; DH walked her around the room and sang to her, and then she got back into bed and cuddled on me, then fussed again, and then I cuddled her and sang to her while she sucked on/chewed her fingers, and then she fell asleep!!









I'm not expecting this to translate into a full night of sleep or anything, but it feels good to know it can happen, and it was also really great that DH was right there with me during the whole thing. It feels like maybe we're going to get through this afterall.

(Remind me I said that when things are terrible again at some point!)


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

whoo hoo! congratulations!

Lily has been so so lately. She's good going to sleep, its just the waking up







: If I put her in the basinette, I can get a good 4 hour stretch out of her sometimes, even 5 if I'm lucky, but after that she wakes up like every 15 minutes!! I don't know WHY!!! ahhh


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Yay Amy and Brynn!!!!!!!!!!!

We're still doing pretty well here. Rowan isn't sleeping through the night really but she does usually do one longish stretch and a couple three-hour ones and I'm functioning fine so I don't think we need to push it any more. I think she has a teensy tummy and actually needs two feeds in the night so that's ok.


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## anonymous4_20 (Nov 3, 2005)

We've had a bit of a break here, too. I've started feeding more solids







: during the day, and he must have been needing that because the last three nights he's had a 3-4 hour stretch and a good 2 hour one. He's been up every hour since May.







:

Isn't it sad when 3 hours seems like ages? I woke up feeling like I'd never slept that long in my life.

He also got to bed a lot later these last few nights. He's been a bit fussy from 8-10, and then at 10 he went down for a long stretch. I know Pantley says to put them down earlier. Does my son just not fit that mold, or is it coincidence?


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anonymous4_20* 

He also got to bed a lot later these last few nights. He's been a bit fussy from 8-10, and then at 10 he went down for a long stretch. I know Pantley says to put them down earlier. Does my son just not fit that mold, or is it coincidence?

I used to think Rowan was like that too but she actually did start sleeping better when she started going to bed earlier. She usually goes down around 8:30 now. Give it a try and see if it works. You will probably have to go to bed with him to start so that when he wakes up after an hour or whatever (which he WILL do) you can get him back to sleep before he really wakes up. Otherwise it'll just be a nap and then you'll have a hard time getting him back down before 11. BTDT!!!


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## 1babysmom (May 22, 2006)

DD went to sleep with us around 10:30 every night since she was born up until about 1.5 months ago. Then we started the NCSS and started putting her down around 8:00 every night. It worked okay, but she just woke up just as frequently, only it was just starting sooner in the night rather than when we'd go to bed. So it was almost more of a hassle.

So after a few weeks of an earlier bedtime, we went back to putting her down shortly before us (around 9-9:30, or sometimes still when we go to bed). She seems to work better with a later bedtime, and it's easier on all of us.


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## anonymous4_20 (Nov 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1babysmom* 
DD went to sleep with us around 10:30 every night since she was born up until about 1.5 months ago. Then we started the NCSS and started putting her down around 8:00 every night. It worked okay, but she just woke up just as frequently, only it was just starting sooner in the night rather than when we'd go to bed. So it was almost more of a hassle.

So after a few weeks of an earlier bedtime, we went back to putting her down shortly before us (around 9-9:30, or sometimes still when we go to bed). She seems to work better with a later bedtime, and it's easier on all of us.

See, that's what I think might be happening with us. He started his hourly night wakings when I read NCSS and started a 7:00 bedtime for him. Prior to that he got to bed around 9:30 or 10:00 and slept fairly well with only 2 or 3 wakings. We started the early bedtime to try to help with his evening crankiness, which did subside. But it's just not worth it if he's going to wake up every hour all night long. There's got to be a magic time that's a happy medium. We'll just have to keep trying.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Well my euphoria was short-lived. Last night was terrible. We tried the non-nursing to sleep routine again and she was sooooo close, but then *screamed* and started sobbing, so I had to give her the boob. She fell asleep within 10 seconds, of course. But she woke up I swear 10,000 times last night, extremely irritable and yelling to nurse every time. It was pretty hard on a mama.

Guys, I feel so defeated and hopeless. I want to cry. I just can't keep living like this.


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

We've got a new thing here now. Lily sleeps fine until 2 or 3 am and then she's just RESTLESS. She nurses back to sleep and then fusses herself awake 15 minutes later and it goes on and on and on. She passes alot of gas too so I'm wondering if it might be that, but I don't know. Anyway I'm pretty tired.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

to you Amy.


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## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anonymous4_20* 
He also got to bed a lot later these last few nights. He's been a bit fussy from 8-10, and then at 10 he went down for a long stretch. I know Pantley says to put them down earlier. Does my son just not fit that mold, or is it coincidence?

I think I'm where you are. It seems that if I put my DS down after 8:00 he sleeps s bit better. If I start the bedtime routine when he begins to rub his eyes it can take over an hour for him to fall asleep







(Like tonight). I just printed up signs for myself that I can no longer put him to bed before 8. I'm just done with it.

I'm feeling so crappy right now. I spent over an hour trying to get DS to sleep. I eventually lost it on him







: I picked him up & plopped him down in the playroom by himself & walked away







: He cried & cried. Poor DD was trying so hard to be patient & I was just getting really ticked off that he wouldn't go to sleep, so I could read her some bedtime stories. It's like this all the time. She always has to wait for me to tend to DS & I am beginning to resent Ds for this. So tonight ended with me screaming at DS







to go to sleep or I was going to let him CIO







& of course DD didn't get any stories b/c I was so irritated I told her to just lay down & go to sleep. Gosh I feel like such a jerk.

Does anyone here have more than 1 child that they have to tend to at night? My DH isn't usually home till late, so the nightime routines are all on me. DD is getting seriously short changed.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

It's been quiet over here; hope that means that everyone is settling into better sleep.

We've had a major breakthrough for the past 3 nights: I finally figured out that I should stop nursing DD in our bed at bedtime so I began nursing her in her room at the beginning of our bedtime routine. When she gets really sleepy, we move into our bedroom and read our two bedtime books, and then turn out the lights. If she wants to nurse again, I say, "Do you want more milk? OK, let's go have some milk" and then we get up and go back into her room and do that part of the routine over again. Once we get back into bed, she usually lays her head on my tummy and sings little songs to herself, and then crawls up and cuddles up to my chest, and within a minute, she's asleep. It's a Christmas Miracle!!









She's still waking 6-8 times per night but I think she is gradually realizing that she doesn't need to nurse to get back to sleep; last night I was able to just cuddle her back to sleep probably half the time, so I feel like that's progress.









So I'm feeling hopeful again. Three nights in a row - that can't be a fluke!


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## 1babysmom (May 22, 2006)

Ooookay, so who's pretty much given up on the NCSS?









I like the whole idea of it, but I'm just not willing to put enough effort into it right now. So we've just gone back to our old routine and I'm much more relaxed about it all.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

We got to a point we could live with (2 wakings per night) and we're good with that. And I still nurse her to sleep for naps.







:


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

We hit our first cold this week. Strangely enough, its made her sleep BETTER. First night was awful, but after that, shes actually been really good. The other night she only woke 2 times in 13 hours! I was impressed. Because she cant really nurse to sleep or nurse for very long at a time due to a stuffed up nose, she has gotten used to DH patting her back to sleep at night, and its actually working. I feel much more rested, even though Im sick.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

That's exactly what happened to us. Rowan and I both got sick, DH took over the nighttime parenting, and she suddenly started sleeping waaaay better. Yay colds!







:


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

My child is wearing me down. She too has a cold, but instead of helping this along in this regard, she seems to be even more intent on being attached to the breast in order to sleep.

Last night I handed her over to DH at 2:30am and went into the other room to sleep; she slept for over 3 hours (straight) with him, whereas only sleeps for an hour with me, so we're going to try switching off again tonight.

NCSS is not/did not work for us and I feel like I'm at the the end of my rope. If this sleeping with Daddy routine doesn't produce any changes, we are going to get a crib and try moving her out of the bed. Honestly, my body can't take much more of this lack of sleep, and it's really putting me on edge emotionally too.

I've just had enough.


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## ACsMom (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Amy** 
Honestly, my body can't take much more of this lack of sleep, and it's really putting me on edge emotionally too.

I've just had enough.

I am so where you're at. NCSS hasn't worked for us so far, despite adherence to routines and working on other ways to get to sleep besides nursing. Right now it's 6am & she's been wide awake for the past 2 hours after a very restless night - usually she atleast sleeps through from 3am until 7, even if she'd been waking up every 2 hours before then. I'm a total wreck. DH is sleeping right now b/c he'll have to take over for me soon!


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Amy, it's ok to use a crib! Ours is right beside the bed and while I do occasionally miss having her cuddled up to me, I can still hear every sniffle and snort (even through my earplugs) and she sleeps much more soundly in there.


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

Amy, lots and lots of babies sleep better in their own space. All babies are different. I hope you find a solution soon.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Thanks so much for all the words of support, mamas. I know it is possible that she'll do better in her own space, but yeah, I will miss the cuddles. I think that if it does work out that she sleeps more soundly, I'd still like to bring her in bed after 4:00am or something like that. We'll see how it goes; we put the pack-n-play up by our bed tonight and she's in it now (we don't have a crib). I think DH is going to get up with her and walk her for the first couple of wake ups, then I will take her to nurse her, and then maybe DH again. I don't know; really I think we're just going to wing it tonight and see what happens. She did sleep with him in the other room from 3:30am til around 8:30 this morning (woke up once at 7:00 for about 2 minutes) so that tells me that she does (or at least can) sleep better when I'm not right there.

It's definitely going to feel weird though, not having her next to me.


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spughy* 
Amy, it's ok to use a crib! Ours is right beside the bed and while I do occasionally miss having her cuddled up to me, I can still hear every sniffle and snort (even through my earplugs) and she sleeps much more soundly in there.

So is the crib working a bit better for you now? Because I know you had said before that she sleeps well for a few nights in there and then it gets bad again...That seemed to be our experience with the basinette, but we were going to try the crib next to our bed and I don't know if its worth the hassle.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ndunn* 
So is the crib working a bit better for you now? Because I know you had said before that she sleeps well for a few nights in there and then it gets bad again...That seemed to be our experience with the basinette, but we were going to try the crib next to our bed and I don't know if its worth the hassle.

It's not perfect, by any means. She still sleeps best on Daddy's lap. But she will sleep 5 hour stretches in the crib, and she NEVER did that in the bed with me. The crib is sort of middle-ground, sleepwise, I guess. Sleeping on Daddy's lap on the couch is NOT a good long-term solution.


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## Avarie (Sep 8, 2004)

That's it - I'm buying this book! (Or at least getting it from the library.) I just read this whole thread, and like 100 of the Amazon reviews. We've been having issues on and off with Spencer fighting sleep, but really only at nap times. For instance, today. (Posted about it a while ago in Life With a Babe - http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=529436 )

At about 3:30, I knew he was getting sleepy. So I sat down in my big comfy chair here at the computer and put him to my breast. I had him cozily wrapped up in a light blankie and let him have his fill. When he popped off (still fully awake) I gave him his pacifier and continued to cuddle him. By 3:45 he was on the verge of falling asleep, so I laid him in his crib (he usually naps in his crib). Around 4:00, I could hear that he wasn't asleep, but he wasn't fussing, so I let him be. By 4:10, he was fussing so I went and picked him up. Twenty minutes of screaming and fighting sleep ensued. My husband came home from work (thank God) and has taken over. They're currently outside in the grass, which is cute. But he's exhausted and it won't last long. And when he starts back up again, DH will hand him back to me and say, "Do you think he might be hungry?"


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## Avarie (Sep 8, 2004)

*sigh* I knew it wouldn't last!

DH just came inside about 10 mintues ago, and Spencer has started screaming again. Full-on, bloody murder, back arching screaming. And I need to do the dishes so I can even START dinner.

Where are those ear plugs??


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## liki (Jul 7, 2006)

Hi everyone! Just got the book in the mail today. Will get back with the results


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## liki (Jul 7, 2006)

Much better night last night for me and little Liam. Maybe just having a plan helps? He did go back to sleep easier.


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## LisaMer (Sep 27, 2006)

Hi all!

I'm new to the Mothering boards and quickly found this thread! I was hoping that there would be more successes here.







My DD is 4 1/2 months old and I want to start trying the NCSS with her. She sleeps terribly at night (wakes every hour or two), I always nurse her back to sleep and she is often up for 2 hours in the middle of the night. She naps okay, but only b/c I nurse her to sleep then put her in the swing! So many bad habits, so little time.








:

She will go to sleep for DH but inconsistently. We currently cosleep out of desperation b/c of all the nursing. Usually it's just me and DD and DH sleeps in the other room. I plan on moving her crib in our room, but we have to take it apart to move it, so I haven't done it yet!

Thanks for letting me bust into your thread!


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

Hi all -

I'm so glad to have found this thread. If only I'd found you all a year ago!

DD is 15 months and while I read the NCSS a few months back, I never found the energy / stability in our schedule to put it into action. Now I'm thinking of finding a copy of NCSS for Toddlers. Has anyone read that book???

What I really need to know is does it offer a lot of advice for getting toddlers to sleep? DD does fine (at night) once she is asleep. She wakes several times but as soon as she's latched on she quiets down. What is slowly making me insane is the time and effort I spend trying to get her to sleep. I spend an average of two hours a day (often more) nursing and rocking and reading and rubbing her back... just to get her to sleep. Both naptime and night bedtime are a problem. More and more often DH and I find ourselves resorting to driving DD around in the car to get her to sleep.


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## thefragile7393 (Jun 21, 2005)

NCSS DOES work, however it dosn't work for everyone. What I mean is, the program could work for kids when they are older instead now and it may mean that you may have to do what works now for sleep and try it again sometime down the road. It may mean working harder to try and be consistent and make it work, and it could mean that you've workedyour hardest to make it work and things are getting worse or not changing and simply go with things and letting things go and keep up what does work. As much as I like this book (I've gotten some great ideas that work for it) I've had to realize that every baby is different and some babies are higher needs and need different things. It dosn't mean that they will be this way forever.

Finding sleep however possible without resorting to CIO and support for this is one of the best things I like about this website and forum.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Nothing is working for us. Nothing.

DD was doing somewhat better, and then we had to make an emergency trip to Texas, where she actually slept better than ever - I wish I knew why! Now that we're home, it's back to waking every hour and wanting to be attached to the breast ALL NIGHT LONG. I'm about to lose it. DH is actually saying he thinks it's time to try CIO, but I'm so against it, and I know it wouldn't work anyway. I just don't know what to do. I feel like we've tried everything.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Awww, Amy I'm sorry.









The only thing I can think of is maybe the temperature/humidity was different where you were in TX? I know Rowan started napping a whole lot better when I started putting an extra blanky on her and turning up the heat in the bedroom. She likes to sleep warm, I guess. Brynn might want to sleep warmer, or cooler, or more/less humid. Or in sheets that smell different? Maybe there's too much "mama" smell in your bed, it keeps waking her up kind of like the smell of cookies would wake you up? Does she sleep better the night after you wash the sheets?

Just tossing stuff out there. I guess the crib/playpen didn't work out for you?


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Interesting thought about the sheets. It's funny because the day we got home, I told DH I didn't want to change the sheets because I wanted Brynn to smell the familiar "home" smell. Wouldn't that be TOO MUCH if all of the nights she's slept well have been new sheet nights?







:







I'm going to change the sheets tonight to test it out!

Anyway, it was about the same temp & humidity in their house; we sleep with it pretty cool and so do they. The only diff is that they have a goose down feather bed on top of their mattress which made it squishier than our bed, but seriously, could that make that big of a difference? The other possibility is that she was just exhausted from running around all day every day and being in a new environment and seeing new people. I dunno.

The playpen thing we had only done for 2-3 nights and it really wasn't making a huge difference - except that DH and I did get some really nice cuddling time in before Brynn joined us, so it was definitely worth it for that reason.

It all just seems like an emotional issue to me though...obviously she can go 4-6 hours during the day without nursing or eating so I think it's not unreasonable to expect her to go 3-4 hours at night. I do wonder if she didn't have a bit of a regression while we were in Texas though; she also refused to do our usually EC on the potty routine while we were there and seems to be slowly getting back into the routine now.

Gotta go but thanks for your thoughts


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## 1babysmom (May 22, 2006)

My DD has started waking a TON more recently. Gosh, I only wish I knew why. We went from about 2-3 wakings regularly for months on end until she hit about 6.5 months. Now I swear sometimes she'll wake up 15 times in the night! Ahhhh!!

I really wish I could just motivate myself in the night to work on these things. That's my only problem, and the real reason why the NCSS hasn't done much for us yet- because in the night, I'm lost.







I canNOT get myself to wake up enough to do anything!!


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Nope - wasn't the sheets.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Another thought Amy - reading your last post you said she can go 4-6 hours during the day without eating... that seems like a HUGE long time to me, Rowan never goes more than 2 hours without eating something, either booby or people food. Perhaps Brynn is reverse-cycling, just because she can? Try getting her to eat more frequently during the day?

FWIW, Rowan NEVER signals hunger, but if she's gone 2 hours without eating, she'll eat a ton. Of course, all babies are different, yada yada yada...


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Yeah, you know, that is totally possible. She's too busy to eat (nurse) much during the day so maybe she is loading up at night! I don't remember if I had mentioned this here or in the DDC, but she's just barely begun to eat solids (we bypassed babyfood totally); she's really had no interest. I definitely think she needs the calories though! She's so mobile and active that I've really been trying to get her to eat more solids for the denser nutritional value, and she's slowly showing more interest.

I think our "plan" is to try to transition her into the pack'n'play and we're going to do the same routine for 10 nights to see how it goes. Last night we started out in the PnP, but she still woke up every hour all night.







:

Anyway, don't mean to hijack the thread or anything! Spughy, can't you just come to stay with us for a couple of weeks and work your NCSS magic on us!??


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

Wow! When I started this thread, I had NO idea it would go to 10 pages or more.

We are certainly a sleepy bunch!







:

As an update, we continue to have amazing sleep from our little one...except when she is teething.

So, last night I was up at 11:30 and 4:30 and maybe another time. Still beats waking the 5-6 times I used to in the 'old' days, but it's still hard to wake up the morning.

Why does the baby rarely seem tired after she's woken up so many times and DH and I are about to keel over? One of life's mysteries!

Here's to you all getting more sleep.


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

You can read a review of Good Night Sleep Tight here:
http://www.totville.com/book.html

I used that book and it REALLY was the key in getting us to get more sleep for everyone.

Also, I wrote more in detail about what we did for our sleep success here:
http://totville.com/babyblog/?cat=9

There is a little fussing, but it is NOT cio.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

We've sort of given up on "trying" to make her sleep longer, and she seems to be growing into it on her own. Her average is now 3-4 hours per stretch, whcih is a big improvement. Well, except for last night...every hour and a half, is what I recall.







: <--- me today


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

Henhau ~

I struggle with some of the issues that I suspect you were concerned about -crying it out, being the biggest. I agree with you that if they are with you and supported, it isn't the same as crying it out.

Do you think that if the baby does more than fuss (not hysterically crying, but definitely crying) while a parent is there with them it's bad? I'm so sleep-deprived that I'm having a hard time making these distinctions for myself and feeling certain that I'm doing something I won't later regret. Btw, my baby is about 6 1/2 months old.

I feel quite strongly about not letting my baby CIO, but I also know that if I were more rested, I could much better parent both of my children during the day. (I have a 3 1/2 year old as well and I stay at home).

So far, we're just trying some of the NCSS techniques (earlier bedtime and my husband is walking the baby when he wakes instead of me nursing him). These two changes have already made a difference. Oh, he also moved from our bed to the crib because it seems pretty clear that he sleeps better alone. We're planning on trying this for a couple of weeks in the hope that the wakings will become very brief. Then we'll need to move onto something to eliminate the wakings or need for support during the wakings altogether. This is where my question comes in because I suspect he will cry a bit when we don't pick him up. Do you think that's OK if we're still right there with him even though he might cry for awhile? I have no idea what should be expected in order to teach them to fall asleep on their own. With my first son, we never did this - we co-slept and I nursed him at night for a year. I was exhausted, but I had the luxury to be so the next day. I have two children to care for now and it just doesn't seem possible to keep this up much longer.

How long did your baby cry when you began to implement that change?

Thanks for any suggestions.


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## pastrygirl (Jul 21, 2006)

Hi all, I'm sorry to barge in like this -- I can't read the whole thread yet because my son takes catnaps and I only have seconds to read/post!

I just finished reading NCSS yesterday, and have some questions. Toby is 5 months old and sleeps in his crib (he cries every 30 minutes if I try to cosleep, but we were able to cosleep for 3 months without issue). It takes me half an hour or longer to rock/nurse him to sleep for a nap, and about an hour to rock/nurse him to sleep for the night. He used to wake up once or twice a night, but lately has either been sleeping through _or_ waking up 3+ times. He usually goes back down quickly at night. His naps only last 30 minutes on the dot! So if I didn't move him to the crib, his entire nap is in my lap. Even in a moving car -- he won't sleep longer than 30 minutes. That's fine, because he takes four per day and seems well-rested, but I'm hoping to decrease the amount of time it takes to put him down.

1) Will NCSS help with shortening the amount of time to put him down? It seems to focus more on getting them _back_ to sleep, but he does pretty good at night.

2) I've been doing the Pantley Pull-off for months with decent success. I usually have to wait until he's asleep, though. But if I don't do it, he'd keep sucking for hours while he sleeps. Should I wait to do the PPO until he stops moving? There are times when he seems to be asleep, but his arms and legs are still moving quite a bit.

3) If he wakes up when I put him down, he cries hysterically. There is no way to soothe him except to nurse, and it will take another 30 minutes to get him back to sleep and then 30 minutes more before I can attempt to move him again. Will I even be able to do phase 1?

4) Do I even want to do this? Right now, his night wakings/feedings last 15-30 minutes, except on bad nights when he doesn't want to go back to sleep (that's only happened twice so far). Should I even tamper with that, since 15-30 minutes seems pretty good to me? The problem I have is that he sometimes wakes up 3 times; and every single night, he wakes at different times. Sometimes at 9, 12, and 3, or 11 and 4, or only at 3:30... It changes daily. It used to be much more consistent until that last month or so (it was always at 2ish and 4ish).

Thanks for any advice!


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## Zoeanne (Dec 4, 2005)

Hope I can join in, ladies...

I read NCSS about a month ago, and have been doing the PPO consistently--I'm not sure if it has really made much of a difference in things, though. He is still nursing to sleep, he just doesn't have the nipple as long.

I am really confused about what "problem" we should address first, and hoping a more experienced NCSS-er can help. We have been co-sleeping, but it is starting to become apparent that everyone sleeps much better when he is in his Arm's Reach (he's 3 1/2 months, btw).

So our issues are as follows:

he doesn't nap for more than 30 minutes unless I am sleeping next to him or holding him or slinging him

he wakes up often in the night and usually only settles when nursed

I want to move him into his own bed

He associates going to sleep with nursing

Dh waits tables, and usually doesn't get home until 11 or later, so I am pretty much always the one putting ds to sleep...we kind of have a routine of bath, massage, nurse, but it is hard to tell when to start...sometimes he seems ready for bed at 6, other days as late as 7:30

Also, he is kind of in the middle of her two age ranges. I am kicking myself for not putting him down more often and having dh help more earlier. Oh well

So this has sounded kind of random and confused, cause I am tired and frustrated. I like the flexibility of the NCSS, but at this point, I kind of just want a book that says, do XYZ and you will have sucess!!! (I guess that's what everyone wants!)

So I guess my question is, do I work on breaking the nursing to sleep association first by changing our routine? Or do I keep nursing him to sleep in bed and then transferring him to the co-sleeper? Should I keep doing whatever works for naps until bedtime is better, or work on both at once? I am just confused!!!







:







:







:

TIA for the help

P.S. Dh is rocking him to sleep now, which may work--it's the putting him down part that is tough (last night I got him to stay in the arm's reach after 5 attempts at putting him down. It is easier to nurse him in our bed, then sneak away, but then he is always in our bed...)


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi Zoeanne,

I'm in a similar boat as you. We just had our 6 month Dr. appt and it really helped to have the doctor normalize what we're all going through. He said that most babies this age are waking quite a bit at night and it does get better. He did encourage working on breaking the nursing to sleep habit, which makes sense.

Some thoughts I have for you (not that I'm an expert by any means...my babe wakes A LOT!):

What is your co-sleeping arrangement? I know you're moving him to his own bed but do you have a queen, king? You might want to put another mattress (maybe a twin) by your bed for you to sleep in after you've snuck away from him. We're going to try that because I think that he senses me so close and that wakes him up for frequently. I'm hoping that having a little more distance between us lets him sleep longer.

Can your husband walk the baby during some of the night wakings when he gets home? We've been trying to watch the clock a bit more...if only an hour has gone by, my husband attends to him with walking. If it's closer to 3 I nurse him again.

It's so hard, but I think that waking is pretty typical. And it seems like there's a pattern of increased waking at about the 6 month mark. I'm very hopeful that the sleep will consolidate in the next few months.

One thing that was helpful to me in the NCSS book was the point that babies on average consolidate their sleep at about 10 months. It just helps me with having reasonable expectations.

Good luck!


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## Zoeanne (Dec 4, 2005)

thanks barb36...i realized that i'm not quite ready to move him to his own bed after all! yesterday i made sure he got three good naps, and he slept 7 straight hours last night! I think that i start worrying about what we *should or shouldn't be doing, ang get all confused, I am going to keep trying the ppo and putting him down to sleep, but i'm not going to stress over it. thanks so much for your advice...it helps to hear other people's experiences.*


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## ecoteat (Mar 3, 2006)

Hi...I'm new to NCSS and glad I found this thread. I've read most of it and half the book so far. Last night we did our first log--8 wakings, longest stretch 1hr 34 min, 8.5 hours total. We have a LONG way to go! Is it really neccessary to log 10 days before making a plan? We are ready for a change as soon as possible!


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Amy, I don't think you log for 10 days; if I remember right, you log for 1 or 2 days & nights, and then make a plan and try *that* out for 10 days before making any revisions! Correct me if I'm wrong, other Mamas.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

I am having NO luck at all with the PPO. It just makes my babe really pissed off. I've tried it several times and it just doesn't work no matter how many times I try to do it. Has anyone else had luck with anything else?

We are having my husband walk the baby at night and I do as well sometimes in order to break that nurse-to-sleep association. At naptime it's impossible, though. Unless I'm wearing him I can't manage to get him down without nursing. Then he wakes frequently and nursing is all that will lull him off to sleep again...however he wakes right when I try to pull away or else minutes later.

Ugh! I have a preschooler as well, so I feel like I really need to get the naps figured out. I just did whatever my first needed when he was a baby because I had that luxury. But now it really impacts my time with my son and my overall sense of sanity!

Thanks for any suggestions!


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Barb, PPO never worked for us either; DD just got more and more upset the more I tried to force it. I finally gave up because it was making her even more clingy and she got to where she would wake up crying during her night-time wakings, which she hadn't done before. I think like anything else, it works for some people...but not everyone.

It's probably been 2 months since I read the book and we are still struggling as much as ever. Not to discourage anyone - try everything you can!! We're just out of ideas at this point and sometimes I feel like I am going to die. DD is going to be a year old in 2 weeks, and I probably haven't slept more than 4 hours in a row since before she was born.


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## ecoteat (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Amy** 
It's probably been 2 months since I read the book and we are still struggling as much as ever. Not to discourage anyone - try everything you can!! We're just out of ideas at this point and sometimes I feel like I am going to die. DD is going to be a year old in 2 weeks, and I probably haven't slept more than 4 hours in a row since before she was born.









Ugh...don't tell me that! Today or tomorrow we are making The Plan. Up until last week I was denying how troublesome the situation is. Now I am ready to tackle this--we've seen some improvement in napping from our pre-NCSS efforts, so something is working!


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## deditus (Feb 22, 2006)

I've been working on the NCSS for a few weeks now with my 4.5 mo DD. She was sleeping great, waking up 2 or 3x to nurse and falling right back to sleep. Until the drooling/gnawing on hand (and boob) started when she was about 3 months. Then came rolling over front to back. Then came rolling over back to front. Then came doing the army crawl and push-up/launch self forward. Then came discovering her toes. So much happening to distract her, make her frustrated, and disrupt sleep. With all this, she started waking up constantly at night and being very hard to get to sleep for naps. She wanted to be attached to the boob constantly at night and I just couldn't do the waking up 12+ times a night!
So what has worked for us so far:

Watching more closely for sleepy signals. She pretty much is ready for a nap after two hours and will sleep for two hours.
Back to swaddling. We swaddled her for the first two months and then it seemed like she didn't need it. But now, I swear the hands keep going after she's asleep and she just wakes herself back up.
Bedtime routine: as simple as a bath, pjs, nurse until very drowsy, then rock until asleep and I can put her down. (There is no way she will fall asleep on her own.) The rocking instead of nursing to sleep has helped her sleep longer stretches at night without waking and needing to nurse back to sleep. She is now going down for her first stretch of sleep at night for 4 hours instead of 45 minutes!
Noise: heartbeat or dryer from www.iserenity.com (Thank you so much to whoever it was that posted that link.)
I was getting her to sleep by herself for naps, but then the lack of sleep-nursing made her start to reverse cycle because she was too busy with the world to eat while she was awake. So I figured I would rather hold her for naps during the day when I can read, knit, or NAK then having her nurse all night.
So it hasn't been simple, but I'm relieved that I'm making progress. Sorry this is so long, I just wanted to encourage other sleep-deprived parents!


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

Things are going better for us as well, but we've kind of created our own "solution" from a combination of book ideas and just knowing what will or won't work for our daughter.

I'm happy to say she will know disengage from the breast when she's finished nursing, and then I hold her for a few moments before putting her down either in bed or in the pack and play. I've also started denying her the breast if she wakes up less than 3 hours before her previous nursing. Since she is almost one year (in less than 2 weeks!), she's VERY verbal and can understand if I tell her, "no milk now Honey, it's time for sleep." She doesn't necessarily *like* it, but she can understand it.

The things that made the biggest difference for me were:

* No nursing in bed!!!! When she wants to nurse, I get up and go sit in the rocking chair. Sure, it sucks for me, but I find that she sleeps longer this way and that it's easier to get her back to sleep when it's been less than 3 hours since her last nursing.

* Sleeping with a shirt on. I had never done this before, but it really helps to keep the breast less accessible, and less of a temptation.

* Paying attention to when she's done actively nursing, and asking, "Are you finished?" If she is, she will unlatch and rest her head on my chest rather than on my breast.

Oh, she just woke up. Good luck to everyone....keep trying!


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## 1babysmom (May 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Amy** 
I'm happy to say she will know disengage from the breast when she's finished nursing, and then I hold her for a few moments before putting her down either in bed or in the pack and play.

* Paying attention to when she's done actively nursing, and asking, "Are you finished?" If she is, she will unlatch and rest her head on my chest rather than on my breast.


Was it PPO that helped with that first part? Or did you adopt another technique?? I'd love to hear!!! Also, I canNOT seem to put effort into staying awake at night to tell when DD is finished nursing. So I'm assuming getting up with her, like you do, would be the best answer to that?


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## deditus (Feb 22, 2006)

I'm not Amy, but the PPO wasn't decreasing our night nursings. DD would just get mad and wake up fully. The getting up to nurse encouraged her to have a full feeding instead of flutter nursing all night, so it decreased the # of times she's been waking overall. And with a full tummy she is more likely to easily give up the boob and then I rock her back to sleep.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

1babysmom, the PPO never worked for us; like emgremore, it just made her mad and she would wake up almost every time. It just sort of evolved with us because DD would sometimes unlatch herself and roll over when she was ready to. I just started saying, "are you finished?" when she would do it on her own, and then also started asking her that when it seemed like she wasn't actively nursing, and then do a modified PPO, where I would sort of shrug my whole upper arm up so that her head was shifted from my breast to my chest. She seemed OK with that, most times. It has now gotten to the point that whe will either unlatch herself and shift her head up on her own or with the cue words "are you finished?" Sometimes though, she will still want to latch back on, so I just let her do that for another minute or two, and then she's usually ready to let go.

The reason I started getting up out of bed was just to break the bed = nursing association. I have noticed a *big* difference since I have done this; she will now go to sleep at bedtime very easily without nursing in bed. (Which, I am sure you can understand, is a HUGE accomplishment.) We're still working on decreasing the night wakings, but I think that has as much to do with the fact that she's about to turn 1 and she's still not eating solids as anything else. She also nurses in very short spurts during the day, so I know that she's getting at least 50% of her caloric intake at night. There's not a whole lot more i can do though, other than stick a feeding tube down her throat during the daytime!

We kind of stopped worrying so much about the bedtime routine; it didn't seem to make much of a difference to her but then we never had a problem getting her to go to sleep without one. She's usually zonked out by 8:00 whether we do the routine or not.

It's interesting what works for some kids but not others!


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## ecoteat (Mar 3, 2006)

I hadn't thought of breaking the bed=nursing association. I wonder if that would help with our night wakings. It sounds like a lot of work though (getting out of bed 4-8 times a night), so I'll keep that idea on the back burner.

We just got a little stereo for the bedroom, so we are going to start using music at night to see if that helps.


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## 1babysmom (May 22, 2006)

So Amy, about how long did it take before getting up in the night started making a difference? It's going to take a lot to motivate me to wake up in the night (I always think I will but when it comes down to it I can't get myself to), but if I know it *might* make a difference right away, that might help.


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

It made a difference right away, especially as far as getting her to sleep at bedtime without nursing. It's also helped *a lot* in terms of getting her to go back to sleep in bed during the non-nursing wake ups. I'm not sure if I was clear about it before (posting with a sick baby, at the in-laws house!) but if she wakes up less than 3 hours from her last nursing, I don't get out of bed at all; I just tell her that it's not time for milk and it's time for sleeping, we'll have milk later, etc. Since she is a year old (or will be on Sunday!!) she can understand me saying those types of things. It doesn't mean she likes it, but she understands it!







But since I don't nurse her in bed anymore, she will usually settle back down and go to sleep within 5 minutes or so of waking. Now, if she wakes up later than 3 hours since the last nursing, I *do* get out of bed and nurse her in her rocker. She nurses vigorously for a few minutes, then relaxes, then pops her head off and relaxes on my chest and then I put us both back in bed before she falls asleep again so that she has to get back to sleep in bed without the boob. Make sense? So I'm really only getting up maybe 3 times per night, which is the same as having a newborn. And sometimes I do a diaper change around 2:00am or so, which I think also helps her sleep better til morning.

This week has been a mess though; we're not home, she's been really sick, so all bets are off. I'm really curious to see how things will be when we get back home with a healthy baby.

Keep me updated on how y'all do!


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## 1babysmom (May 22, 2006)

Awesome! Thanks so much Amy! I think I'll start trying that tonight. Like I said a few posts ago, I'm pretty content with our sleep routine (whatever it might be), so I stopped bothering with the NCSS. But what frustrates me is DD's inability to fall back to sleep on her own, and it'll be better for all 3 of us if she can learn to do so.


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## 1babysmom (May 22, 2006)

oh man, I tried it, but I have no idea how this is going to work (I liked how it did, but I have no idea how I'm going to do it!). I got up with her the first 2 times, but nursed her in bed the last 2.







I have so much trouble waking up in the night!


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## *Amy* (Jun 16, 2004)

I know, it is hard!!! I have a hard time remembering if it's been 3 hours since she nursed, etc. I am going to stick with it though because I figure even a month of this will pay off, and it's better than another YEAR of waking every 1-2 hours!!

Good luck, whatever you decide to do.


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## apelilae (Oct 8, 2006)

I'm joining in on the NCSS! I'm reading through now and seeing what we want to try and what we don't. After the New Year, we're going to be back on a routine we started a few months ago and develop a better night time routine. DH is all for it







I did a sleep log for three days. I didn't bother at night becase I KNOW he is waking every hour to nurse and I dont feel like losing any more sleep to document what I already know. I did notice his naptimes weren't as long as I thought they were. I hope it helps him.


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