# Does anyone regret NOT circumcising? *this is NOT a pro circ thread, just curious about the medical complications*



## tinyblackdot (Aug 31, 2007)

Has anyone NOT circumcised their child, and then later regretted it? I don't even know what I am having yet, and I am pretty sure that IF i have a boy we will not circumcise, BUT i have talked to many men about the idea, and they all say that I SHOULD do it. One of them elected to be circumcised as an adult, and one had a horror story about a "friend" that had to go through a horrible surgery as a teen. So now I'm worried that my choice for my child will lead to him just having to have a more painful procedure later down the line.

I feel like i wouldn't want my father making any decisions about my genitals, and therefore, i should really rely on the overwhelming opinion of other men including my DH. But then i wonder if they even know what in the heck they are talking about.......but then again if they are missing anything then whats the big deal right? But i don't want parts of my babies body just cut off for no real reason.

*please know that I am 100% not here to debate it at all, I am here to seek experience and advice from mothers that have been through making the tough decision, i like every parent, would like to make the best decision for my child*


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinyblackdot*
> 
> Has anyone NOT circumcised their child, and then later regretted it? I don't even know what I am having yet, and I am pretty sure that IF i have a boy we will not circumcise, BUT i have talked to many men about the idea, and they all say that I SHOULD do it. One of them elected to be circumcised as an adult, and one had a horror story about a "friend" that had to go through a horrible surgery as a teen. So now I'm worried that my choice for my child will lead to him just having to have a more painful procedure later down the line.
> 
> ...


I think you should take those horror stories with a grain of salt. If you read some threads here, you'll discover that a lot of American doctors recommend circumcision for perfectly healthy intact penises, so that story about the teenager who needed a circumcision? It's likely he didn't actually need one.

They used to tell people to pull back (retract) kids' foreskins to clean underneath, but we know now that doing that can damage the foreskin and cause scar tissue that can lead to problems later. Don't retract, and you won't have any of those problems. Also, many doctors used to think that if the foreskin didn't retract itself by, say, 3, then it needed surgery, but we know now that the average age of retraction is much later, and that some perfectly healthy penises never retract. Also, infections (rare as they are) can be treated with antibiotics, not amputation.

You say you wouldn't want your father to make decisions about your genitals, so you don't want to make decisions about your son's penis. But... if your mother decided to circumcise you, that'd be perfectly fine because she's the same sex as you? That doesn't make sense. No, the only person who should decide to alter your son's penis is YOUR SON. Remember that it's his body, not yours, not your husband's, not your male friends. Their opinion doesn't matter, because it's not their penis, is it? It's his.

I urge you to do nothing drastic to your son's penis and let him decide.

I very much doubt you will find any mothers of intact boys on this forum who regret it, so I'm not sure how realistic this question is.

I'm proud that my son is intact, and the idea that he is still makes me happy when I think about it.


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## artekah (Apr 26, 2009)

ITA with MichelleZB. I don't think circumcised men (almost all circed as newborns) are the best sample for opinions on this topic. You should instead be asking intact men if they wish they were circumcised. My bet is you'd get a lot of laughs from that group.

Not that anecdotes are a good source of information anyway. Objective research is the way to go. The more you learn about circumcision...like how it's done, and real facts about the human foreskin and what it's for, actual statistics, etc...NOT anecdotes, the more horrified you will be. The evidence against RIC really is that huge.

Your son can always be circumcised later. But if you make the choice for him it can never be undone. Seems like an easy decision to me!

ETA: By the way, don't assume that being circumcised as a teen or adult is any more painful!!! Babies simply can't articulate how much pain it is. They are helpless, voiceless victims. And how convenient that they won't grow up to remember that pain. If they could, this barbaric practice would end in one generation.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Well, I never made the "tough" decision to leave my sons intact, because there was absolutely no possibility that I'd allow them to be cut. It's the one thing I've ever laid down the law about (with both my ex and dh).

Neither of my boys has ever had a problem, or any kind of complicated. My oldest is 19. When I first started reading this forum (he was 12), I occasionally read stuff out to my dh, and sometimes ds1 heard me. At some point, he asked what I was talking about and I explained circumcision to him. He literally twitched - his whole body, and got one of the most horrified looks I've ever seen on a human face, and said, "why would they do that?". We've discussed it a few times since, and his basic attitude is that anybody who wanted to cut off his foreskin would have to have a lot of big, strong people to hold him down, because he'd fight it with every fiber of his being.

DS2 is only six (seven in July), and doesn't know about circumcision yet. But, he's never had any problems at all, and is totally happy with his penis, just the way it is.

I am confused as to why you think you could be setting your son up for a more painful procedure in future. Who told you it hurts an older boy/man more than a newborn? I don't see any way that could possibly be true, as the newborn foreskin is fused to the glans, and has to be torn free before being cut off.

ETA: A grown man (or older boy) also doesn't have to deal with an open wound in a diaper. Every time I even think about a circ'd baby in a diaper, I feel nauseated.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I also wanted to comment on this:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinyblackdot*
> 
> I feel like i wouldn't want my father making any decisions about my genitals,


I wouldn't really want either of my parents making decisions about my genitals, unless there was a medical need for them to do so. As such, I left the genitalia of all four of my children just the way they were at birth. My children can make any cosmetic decisions they choose to make, when they're old enough to do so. If I'd cut parts off of them, they wouldn't be able to do so.

This wasn't a tough decision. I left the decision about keeping, or not keeping, the foreskin up to the person who actually has said foreskin.


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## tinyblackdot (Aug 31, 2007)

I guess my concern is that i came to this thread looking for information and it seems like every other post is something about an infected penis, or UTI, or Dr saying a child needs a surgery. So to me its all good to say that circ isn't necessary, but it looks like (according to the posts on this forum at least) that there seem to be a few complications that go along with it. If not why are there so many posts about it?


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## artekah (Apr 26, 2009)

Because this is where parents of intact boys come for advice. It's not that intact boys have more problems than circumcised boys (in fact, there are all kinds of complications resulting from circ!) But when they do, they post here, where tons of knowledgable people hang out. If you post elsewhere on the Internet, you'll probably run into a lot of ignorance about normal male genitalia.

You see a lot of threads about doctors recommending circ because in the U.S., as a whole, doctors are shockingly ignorant about normal male genitalia. They have been trained to see circ as the answer to almost every problem. A lot of the time when people are talking about a "problem" here, it's not actually a problem at all--not being able to retract by a certain age, for example. But they've been led to believe there is a problem by a shockingly ignorant doctor.

This is not to say that people don't ever have real problems with their foreskins--of course they do, as much as any other normal part of the human body.

It's like going to a forum about eye health and wondering why so many people seem to be having problems with their eyelids. Well, it's not because everyone would be better off cutting off their eyelids. It's because they figured they could get their questions answered if they asked on the eye health forum.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinyblackdot*
> 
> I guess my concern is that i came to this thread looking for information and it seems like every other post is something about an infected penis, or UTI, or Dr saying a child needs a surgery. So to me its all good to say that circ isn't necessary, but it looks like (according to the posts on this forum at least) that there seem to be a few complications that go along with it. If not why are there so many posts about it?


I can understand why it'd look that way, but I hope that you don't act on that impression. My husband and his brother are intact and my two sons and just about all of my friends' sons and I don't know of anyone having had any trouble whatsoever. I doubt my BIL would advertise if there were trouble, but as for the rest of that group I would know. I can't think of a single IRL scary uncirced story that I've heard. I also don't know of any parent that regrets not having circ'ed. I do know one mom who feels horrible for having circ'ed her son. She was 20 when he was born and had no idea that there were people who didn't circ or that it was an option. And now she's horrified that there's no turning back.  But I'm sure you've seen those stories on this forum.

I am completely pleased with the state of my intact sons' penises, and they seem to be, too.

I have to agree with the other posters who said that there's no reason to believe it hurts less for a baby. I had to take care of a baby after his circ in a daycare once (he was six months old) and it was so awful. Can you imagine constantly peeing on a wound? And in a diaper... Gah! It was just gross and horrible. And it was certainly very painful for him. I also think there is something particularly sadistic about having it be one of baby's very first experiences outside the womb. I guess we do that because we believe for some reason that it doesn't matter so much then, but I feel like it's just the opposite. If my 20 year old son decided to get circ'ed, I don't think I'd worry about the pain much at all, even if it was severe, just like I don't think any of us would worry so much about our adult child's pain from any cosmetic procedure. They will understand their pain and probably be able to treat it if needed.

Also, I don't think there's any reason (if anyone knows otherwise correct me) that you can't drag them down to the doctor at any age and have them circ'ed. I mean, if you can do it when they're two days old, why not 2 years or 12 years old? So, even if you did somehow regret it... The only thing I can see truly regretting would be the thing that can't be fixed later.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

You might want to check out this thread as well. Intact and no problems. I've got three boys, ages 13, 11, and 8. They are all intact and we haven't had issues with any of them, besides telling their doctor that no, we aren't retracting, and we are not going to retract.

And I'll second, or third, or fourth the idea that people come here if they are facing a problem to ask questions, because there aren't many other places that you can get great information about these issues. So, yes, you do see a lot of questions here regarding that. Just like if you look in the breastfeeding forums, you'll often see a lot of questions regarding breastfeeding issues.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Oops! Wanted to add, that my dh does regret having been circumcised. He hasn't had any problems, per se. But after reading all the things we were given when I was pregnant, and we made the decided not to circ, it made him wonder what it would be like to have his foreskin. He isn't angry or anything, but he does feel a little cheated.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

If you go to boards where many circ you will run across many many threads about the complications of circ.

This board is one of the very few on the few on the net that people can go to for accurate information on the proper way to take care of the intact penis and also some things that might happen that in other countries they know is normal while here in the USA they rush to say circ. Many complications of intact have nothing to do with the intact penis but the fact that Dr's have not been taught about it only how to cut it off.

In other countries where intact is the norm they dont see these "problems" because they know that it isnt a problem but part of growing up intact.


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## a-guy (Jul 2, 2012)

"You should instead be asking intact men if they wish they were circumcised. My bet is you'd get a lot of laughs from that group."

As a 50 something, long married man who was not circumcised I must say I am very grateful that I was not. When I was born virtually all boys were circumcised - I applaud my parent's courage to go against that. Having talked to other men, a few intact and may cut, I am convinced that there are sexual benefits to being left whole. A recent study in Denmark found the same thing - both men and partners of those who were circumcised were less happy with their sex lives.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinyblackdot*
> 
> I guess my concern is that i came to this thread looking for information and it seems like every other post is something about an infected penis, or UTI, or Dr saying a child needs a surgery. So to me its all good to say that circ isn't necessary, but it looks like (according to the posts on this forum at least) that there seem to be a few complications that go along with it. If not why are there so many posts about it?


UTIs happen with circ'd penises, too. They're not all that common with boys, in either case.

Many of the threads about "infected penises" turn out to be nothing of the sort, if you read the whole thread. It's frequently separation. Sometimes, it's honestly just diaper rash, but because it's at the tip of the foreskin, and American culture (particularly medical culture) is afraid of foreskins, people tend to overreact.

When the doctors say the child needs a sugery (ie. a circumcision, or sometimes a slit), they're very frequently proven to be wrong. However, even if they were right, why would you circumcise a newborn infant, because there's a chance they might need that same procedure later in life? Subjecting a newborn to surgery, because you're concerned that he might need surgery later if you don't do it now, is completely illogical. Our kids might need all kinds of surgeries (when I was a kid, I "needed" my tonsils out, for example). That doesn't mean we go ahead and perform them on our newborns.

Circ is cosmetic surgery, not a medically indicated procedure.

FWIW...my brother is 49, and intact. He's never had a problem. My son is 19, and intact. He's never had a problem. My nephews are 12 (almost 13), 11, 10 and 9 - all intact, and none of them has ever had a problem. My younger son is almost 7, and has never had a problem. I'm not just saying that none of them have ever had a major problem - none of them have ever had a problem at all - no separation issues, no infections - nothing. A few dabs of diaper rash ointment, as required, has been the extent of what they've required. That means that every single circ'd boy, even if they had no immediate complications, required more care than any of my intact family members. (The circ'd boys all had open wounds in diapers that needed to be cared for.)

As others have said, you get thost posts here, because this is one of the few forums where people can post when they have concerns. If you amalgamated every post asking questions about the care of circ penises on one forum, it would look much worse, I suspect. (I've certainly never heard of an intact boy being rushed to ER for bleeding.)


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

"Has anyone NOT circumcised their child, and then later regretted it?"

I've been involved in this debate more than a dozen years, have corresponded with thousands of mothers and have never found one that regretted not circumcising.

"BUT i have talked to many men about the idea, and they all say that I SHOULD do it."

This is the normal and expected response from a circumcised man. Men are in a constant competition to access the most desirable women and they have to believe they have the best organ possible. To admit (even to themselves) otherwise would be extremely damaging to their ego.

"One of them elected to be circumcised as an adult, and one had a horror story about a "friend" that had to go through a horrible surgery as a teen."

I've also heard these stories. They appear to be false for the most part. About 10 years ago, I decided to investigate these stories. I would ask for specifics such as the man's name. No one could even give me a name, not one! I would be told "He doesn't want to talk about it" or "He doesn't live here any more." (I was not asking for addresses) or "I don't remember his name." I was obviously being stonewalled.

I did eventually find two men. One was my uncle. His exact words were "It's the worst mistake I ever made in my life." The other was the husband of my girl friend's girl friend. He didn't want to talk about it but his wife talked to my girl friend who told me what she was told. "Janice" was not happy. They had only been married a few years and their sex life had gone down the drain after the circumcision. She was actively looking for a lover on the side and apparently thought I might be interested. (I wasn't)

"So now I'm worried that my choice for my child will lead to him just having to have a more painful procedure later down the line."

This is an old myth and an absolute lie. Adults undergoing circumcision are usually done under full anesthesia and are given a full range of aftercare medications. They typically report some inconvenience but absolutely no pain.

However, you also must understand what are the chances of a later necessary circumcision. Those who push circumcision want to leave you with the impression that it will be necessary at some point. I'll give you this bit of evidence: In Sweden where infant circumcision is virtually never done with the exception of religious circumcisions, only 1 man in 17,000 goes to his grave without his foreskin.

"I feel like i wouldn't want my father making any decisions about my genitals, and therefore, i should really rely on the overwhelming opinion of other men including my DH."

That's some sound logic. May I use it?

There are two groups of men, (1.) those who are circumcised and therefore must defend it and (2.) those who are not and have nothing to defend. Which is more logical to accept?

"But then i wonder if they even know what in the heck they are talking about......."

Those men who are circumcised have to defend their status for protection of their egos. A man who has been circumcised as an infant no longer has the parts or the nerves to provide the sensations and from experience, I can tell you, they have no idea of what they are missing, never have had an idea or never will have an idea.

"but then again if they are missing anything then whats the big deal right?"

No, not right. Use your imagination for a moment. What if you were born blind. You wouldn't miss the wonders you have seen because you were born that way. Would that make it acceptable for your parents to intentionally blind you?

"But i don't want parts of my babies body just cut off for no real reason."

It's not just "parts," it's genital parts. Parts whose purpose is to give pleasure, extreme pleasure. What if the procedure does not go well? A young man (17 years old) once wrote me privately. Almost all of his glans (the head of the penis) was cut off during his circumcision. At 17 years old, he still had the normal sex drive of a 17 year old boy (if you can call the sex drive of a 17 year old boy "normal") He had tried to have a girl friend but most quickly left when they saw his penis. However, there was one who apparently both sympathetic and giving and gave him the chance. He was unable to do it. He was writing me because he had found my writings here on Mothering and thought I might have information that could help him. In reality, there was nothing that could put back what he had lost.

Over the years, I have wondered what his Mother had told him and what he had told his Mother. Think he might have been very angry with his mother for approving what was done to him? He certainly had a right to be angry. Think his mother had reconsidered having him circumcised? Probably but there was nothing she could do either except apologize. Mostly, I wonder if she had ever thought about him not being able to give her grandchildren and what she thought about that. Grandchildren are blessings that everyone should at least experience.

"*please know that I am 100% not here to debate it at all, I am here to seek experience and advice from mothers that have been through making the tough decision, i like every parent, would like to make the best decision for my child*"

Once you get the facts, it will not be a tough decision and the older your child becomes, the more confident you will become that you've made the right decision. In the 12 years I've been posting information for mothers, I have never "known" a mother that regretted not circumcising her son. I don't expect you to be any different.

.


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## Monkeygrrl (Oct 9, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinyblackdot*
> 
> Has anyone NOT circumcised their child, and then later regretted it?


Absolutely not. My boys are 9 and 6, intact, and have never had any issues.

Because I researched it to death (enough that I wrote a paper on it for a class), I knew how to care for the intact penis, and I was hyper-vigilant in the doctor's office when it came to well-baby visits and physicals.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Well, I never made the "tough" decision to leave my sons intact, because there was absolutely no possibility that I'd allow them to be cut.


This. It wasn't a tough decision at all, really. When I found out I was pregnant with my first son, I started doing research. Once it became clear to me the reasons why circumcision got started, I knew that wasn't happening to my child. Ever. No matter what the lead male role in their life said. (My first born didn't have a lead male role until he was 10mo, so it wasn't even an issue.) With my second son, I informed my husband that I would move out, live in my car, and take his son with me if he even suggested we have him circ'd. I was serious, he knew it, and as I educated him on the reasons for my stand, he completely agreed with me. My husband is circumcised. And as I educated him on the subject, he became increasingly angry that this was done to him, and that this is the reason for the issues he has today. There is not much he can do about it, and although he does have the option to restore his foreskin and has the device to do so, there is no guarantee that restoring will make the issues go away.

My story is here.

I would fight tooth and nail, and consider all other options, before ever agreeing to letting my child go under the knife for a circumcision. I am thankful every day my boys do not have issues, because I know that it has to be an agonizing decision for those who are so against circumcision and have no choice for their own child.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I agree with everything written so far. The idea of performing surgery on an infant on the very slight chance that he might need that operation as an adult is pretty silly, when you think about it. If the idea is to avoid surgery, why not avoid it completely? I didn't sign my babies up for appendectomies, even though several people in my immediate family have needed one.

Here's how much I have NOT regretted leaving my twin boys intact, 18 years ago:

- When they were babies, and I saw how well their foreskins protected their glans from explosive poops.

- when I found a circumcision debate board a couple of years later, researched the heck out of it (loooking for a reason TO do it), and learned that the potential medical benefits were minimal, at best. I also learned about the functions of the foreskin, and how important it is.

- When baby Dustin Evans died. He had surgery to repair a botched circumcision, and died on the operating table. It had never occured to me that a baby could DIE from something as simple as circumcision! Since then Ilve read of many more deaths, and each one breaks my heart.

- When DH and I were visiting friends in the hospital when their newborn was taken away for his circumcision. We left a few minutes later, and heard his screams as we walked by the nursery (we peeked through the slats in the blinds - it was him).

- When our boys were 8, they heard the word circumcision (in a church sermon, of all places), and asked what it meant. When we told them it meant to cut off the foreskin, they both said (with horro on their faces) "Why would anyone want to do THAT?!" They were appalled when we told them that most men don't ask for it themselves, but their parents do it to them when they are babies. Upon leanring that their Dad is circumcised, one of them said "Poor Dad! He's missing the best part!"

- As my sons have gotten older, and we've talked about it, they have become even more staunchly anti-circumcision than I am. One of my sons has told me that he would not want to date a girl who agrees with infant circumcision or spanking.

Not only do I have no regrets about leaving our babies as they were made, that decision has been validated time and time again.


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## Cyllya (Jun 10, 2009)

First, you need to remember that the state of lacking a foreskin is itself a medical problem, even if there were no complications, regardless of how pleasant or unpleasant the procedure itself was. Circumcising to prevent medical problems means you're inflicting a medical problem to prevent medical problems. Plus most of the medical problems you're trying to prevent are less permanent. If you need to know more about why the lack of a foreskin is a bad thing, google "sex as nature intended it" for a great explanation (it has sexually explicit images, so I don't think I'm allowed to post it here directly).

Also, the previous two or three generations had so few intact men that knowledge of the correct way to care for an intact penis. Lots of people think you need to force the foreskin back and clean under it vigorously with soap, but that's like forcing back your fingernails or eyelids and soaping under them. That practice is actually really likely to cause infections and other health problems (in addition to being painful). So when you hear "my friend's friend's former roommate's sister-in-law's brother had a horrible penis-related health problem!!!" you don't know how he was cared for as a child, but if he grew up in America, chances are his penis was harmed by his parents, doctors, and caregivers. If you spend twenty seconds educating yourself on proper penis care, all of those risks become non-applicable to your own child.

Thirdly, even if you could see into the future and know he's going to have a medical need to be circumcised someday, that's still no reason to do it when he's a baby. If circumcision is going to happen, the later the better. Here are some reasons:

1. When male babies are born, their foreskin is fused to glans of the penis, and this becomes fully retractable over time (at an average age of 10 years). Forceful retraction is by itself painful and unhealthy, but circumcising an individual whose foreskin is not yet naturally retractable requires forceful retraction. The older the patient is, the more likely he is to be naturally retractable, therefore avoiding this problem.

2. Wearing a diaper after being recently circumcised means you have an open wound sitting in a pool of urine and feces. Most teens and adults don't wear diapers, so they can avoid this problem.

3. A doctor who is circumcising a baby has no way of knowing how big that baby's penis is going to be, and there isn't a clear line between foreskin and not-foreskin, so there is no way to know how much is "safe" to cut off. Many men who were circ'd as babies have overly tight skin on their penis that make it painful to get an erection. Sometimes the penis stretches down skin from above the penis, causing it to be abnormally hairy. Sometimes the skin is tighter on one side, forcing the penis to curve. Recently some doctors have started doing "loose" circ's on babies to avoid these problems, but that comes with its own problems, such as what's left of the retracted foreskin trying to re-adhere to the glans. Once a patient is fully grown, they won't have this problem.

4. For safety reasons, there's a limit to how much anesthesia can be used on a baby, plus some doctors don't care if babies are in pain and therefore won't use anesthesia or won't wait for it to kick in, especially if the parents aren't present. If a baby passes out from pain or goes into shock, the nurses will tell the parents he slept through the procedure and was only crying because it's cold in the room. Adults, teens, and older children can get better anesthesia during the procedure and more respect from the doctor. Further, they have access to better pain relief during the recovery period. Even if the child is too young to be trusted with his own pain meds, at least he can tell his parents when he's in pain, take meds at their discretion, and describe what is or isn't helpful.

The reason people think it's better to circ babies is because they don't believe babies feel pain (hah!) or they don't *care* that babies feel pain. In the latter case, they figure it's okay because adults don't remember anything that happened to them as newborns, but by that logic, it's okay to violently abuse anyone under the age of two. In no other situation is it considered okay to inflict pain on someone just because they don't remember it. Even when you don't have a mental movie of an event, you still keep the knowledge, opinions, and feelings you gained from that event. Two years from now, you're probably not going to remember what you had for lunch tomorrow, but you still want it to be tasty, don't you?

The only real advantage to being circ'd younger is that the patient needs to avoid sex for a couple of weeks after the procedure. But when the alternative is a little baby recovering from a surgery with no pain relief, excuse me if I don't feel much pity for the poor grown-up who has to abstain from sex for a few weeks.

Also, surgeries to repair botched circs are more common

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinyblackdot*
> 
> I guess my concern is that i came to this thread looking for information and it seems like every other post is something about an infected penis, or UTI, or Dr saying a child needs a surgery. So to me its all good to say that circ isn't necessary, but it looks like (according to the posts on this forum at least) that there seem to be a few complications that go along with it. If not why are there so many posts about it?


People post their concerns here because they know people aren't going to tell them to circ their kid for no good reason. Likewise, looking at the Gentle Discipline board may tempt you to conclude that GD makes kids into unruly violent selfish little monsters and therefore you need to beat your own kids with PCV pipes to save them from this horrible fate. Or looking at the breastfeeding sections and concluding that you need to give your infant daughter a masectomy.









Go read those topics and not just the title, and you'll find that people usually discover that their concern is not due to a foreskin-related health problem. In many cases, it's not a health problem at all. In other cases, it's a health problem not related to foreskins such as UTI or diaper rash. Then go read a forum full of parents who circumcised their kid.


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## shadowdancer77 (May 24, 2011)

I also chose to leave my son and his penis in tact 

He is 7 months old now. No problems whatsoever.

My husband has reported that he wondered if he would be able to bond with him when he's older because they look different. I'm sad that they "look different" but honestly, I more sad that my husband had no choice. My son does.

That's all I got. Good luck.


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## Monkeygrrl (Oct 9, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shadowdancer77*
> 
> My husband has reported that he wondered if he would be able to bond with him when he's older because they look different.


That is an odd statement. Did your husband bond with his father over the size/shape/look of their penii?

My husband is circ'ed, and he circ'ed his first son (from a previous marriage). That child is now 16, and not once in the last 8yrs I have known my husband has he and his first son ever bonded because their penii are both circ'ed.

My two birth boys are intact, and not once has their penii ever been a topic of convo when it comes to bonding with their father. Guns, camping, video games, chess, making silly faces, farting/burping, being present at swim meets and soccer games, helping out with some homeschooling thing, making explosions using coke and mentos --- these are some of the things that the boys bonded with Dad over. Never the size/shape/look of their penii.

~~~~~~~~~~

And now I see that the above post was your first one, and maybe I shouldn't have bothered to respond.


----------



## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinyblackdot*
> 
> I feel like i wouldn't want my father making any decisions about my genitals, and therefore, i should really rely on the overwhelming opinion of other men including my DH.


I didn't make the "decision" to leave my sons intact any more than I made the decision to not cut off their feet. Its not a decision. Its the way their bodies are born, and they are perfectly healthy and normal. No decision to be made.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Cyllya wrote: "chances are his penis was harmed by his parents, doctors, and caregivers. If you spend twenty seconds educating yourself on proper penis care, all of those risks become non-applicable to your own child."

A woman posted on another board that her doctor had told her to retract the foreskin and swab it and the glans with rubbing alcohol. She said she finally stopped because of the screams of her child. I can imagine! The inner foreskin and glans is mucosal skin like the insides of the eyelids. Imagine putting rubbing alcohol in your eyes! She said that was the reason she was advocating for circumcision. She would not accept that the doctor had told her wrong.

"Many men who were circ'd as babies have overly tight skin on their penis that make it painful to get an erection."

Yes, this is very common. Most don't have painful erections but also don't realize another problem. This foreshortened skin sleeve doesn't allow them to have full erections. The entire penis is more than 50% inside the body. A tight circumcision can keep even more inside the body thus the man never reaches his full erectile potential. Men who restore their foreskins typically report gaining substantially in erectile length. Most report 1/2" to 1" but some report more than 1 3/4". Of course the men love this and I suspect their lovers value it.

"Sometimes the penis stretches down skin from above the penis, causing it to be abnormally hairy."

Yes, I've seen some awful pictures of this. Most circumcised men have some hair on the shaft. I remember one that had it all the way to almost the circumcision scar. The unreaized problem is that that hair abrades the vaginal opening causing sex to be irritating or painful to his lover. The intact man does not have this problem because the skin sleeve is not immobile. It can slide up and down the entire length of the shaft quite easily. This probably accounts for many women singing the praises of the intact penis.

"plus some doctors don't care if babies are in pain and therefore won't use anesthesia or won't wait for it to kick in, especially if the parents aren't present"

This is among the most disturbing things about infant circumcision. Doctors pose themselves as being loving and caring professionals. The latest survey shows that only 6% of newborns recieve pain management for the procedure. It is rare for them to allow parents to be present for the procedure. Wonder why? Maybe it's to keep the parents from seeing the inhumanity? So the parents won't tell other parents and ruin the carefully crafted personna of the caring professional?

"or won't wait for it to kick in"

Yes, doctors highly value their time. It is recommended that the analgesic be allowed 20 minutes to take effect yet many will immediately start after the injection and be done well before 20 minutes have passed.

"The reason people think it's better to circ babies is because they don't believe babies feel pain (hah!)"

You only have to watch one circumcision video to know babies feel pain. It was doctors who started this myth and they knew it was not true. As far back as 1980, research showed that infants feel pain more intensely than adults. A 3 year old will fall but will not break skin, bruise or show other symptoms of injury but will cry intensely in pain. That is evidence they are highly susceptible to pain.

"but by that logic, it's okay to violently abuse anyone under the age of two. In no other situation is it considered okay to inflict pain on someone just because they don't remember it"

In infants traumatic experiences permanently imprint that experience on the brain. This is the reason circumcised infants show more response to childhood injections like vaccinations. They actually perceive more pain and that perception interprets into real pain.

Parents who break fingers and arms, burn babies hands on hot stoves and do other things to injure their children are typically sent to prison. Judges and juries pay no attention to memories of pain but convict a parent or doctor for the intentional pain of circumcision? Not likely to happen. That is because most of them are guilty of doing the same thing.

"Also, surgeries to repair botched circs are more common"

Yes, it amazed me a couple of years ago when someone directed me to a medical practice whose specialty was correcting botched circumcisions. This made up more than 80% of the practice!

"Tiny Black Dot wrote: "but it looks like (according to the posts on this forum at least) that there seem to be a few complications that go along with it. If not why are there so many posts about it?"

That is probably a lot my fault. I found Mothering as fair and supportive. I actually sent mothers here to get answers. I didn't answer them in the forum where they were originally asking for information. I valued Mothering and wanted to build readership here so I brought "customers." The mother would come and get essentially the same information from multiple members here. In just a short time, the membership here virtually exploded and MDC became the "go to" place for answers. It also brought problems with leaving boys intact. HOWEVER, those mothers all got helpful information and for several years, none of those boys were circumcised even though a doctor had prescribed it. Not a single one!

"Then go read a forum full of parents who circumcised their kid."

Yes, there are internet forums that support circumcision. It is amazing the number of problems cropping up. Often there are no solutions to the problem or the problem is additional surgery. It seems the mothers who have circumcised are adamant that circumcision was only a related action, not the instigating action and even after their child has suffered, are willing to let him suffer agaiin. I particularly remember one mother who had her son circumcised, then circumcised again and yet again. A total of 3 circumcisions for one child! Never the less, she still adamantly supported circumcision and was ever trying to convince other mothers to circumcise their sons. She repeatedly emphasized how it would prevent a later circumcision. HAH!


----------



## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rubidoux*
> 
> Also, I don't think there's any reason (if anyone knows otherwise correct me) that you can't drag them down to the doctor at any age and have them circ'ed. I mean, if you can do it when they're two days old, why not 2 years or 12 years old? So, even if you did somehow regret it... The only thing I can see truly regretting would be the thing that can't be fixed later.


As the parent or legal guardian, you can force them to be circumcised up to 17 years and 364 days. Even if they are fighting like a tiger. The question is "would you do that?" Probably not but what if the child was 14 years old and didn't want it? Or 8 years old? Or 5 years old? Isn't part of the reason boys are circumcised in infancy is because they can't voice their objections? I suspect so.

That begs the question "How will you possibly know what your son will want as an adult?" What if he confronts you when he learns what you have done to him? Will you be able to give him well researched legitimate answers? Will he accept those answers?

But there is another scenario . . . The circumcision rate in The US has been falling the last ten years as parents learn. In 2000, the circumcision rate was about 66%. In 2009, the infant circumcision rate was 32.5% and expected to continue to fall Boys born after 2007 or 2008 will be in the minority if they are circumcised. This is sure to generate difficult questions for parents who do circumcise.

These boys will have the same information available to them that you have available to you. Will they believe the information from legitimate medical sources? Probably so. What is their determination likely to be? There is little (virtually none) information from legitimate sources that support infant circumcision and this is what they will be faced with. How will you handle that if you choose circumcision for your son?

>


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## HealthyHappyMom (Jul 2, 2012)

My son is uncircumcised. My husband and I knew that it would have been traumatic to his physical body and emotions. We use a natural and non-toxic solution to cleanse him to prevent any infections.


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead*
> 
> I agree with everything written so far. The idea of performing surgery on an infant on the very slight chance that he might need that operation as an adult is pretty silly, when you think about it. If the idea is to avoid surgery, why not avoid it completely? I didn't sign my babies up for appendectomies, even though several people in my immediate family have needed one.


YES. This is what I was going to say. Why do a painful, unnecessary, cosmetic surgery on a helpless unconsenting baby on the miniscule chance that there might be problems later? With what other body part do we do this? Absolutely none. That's because it's irrational, IMO.

It's his body, and it's his choice. That's always where I return when these debates come up. The rest of it is good to know, but that's the most important thing.

That said, OP, thanks for feeling comfortable enough to come here and ask. I'm glad you posted.


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

P.S. You might want to read this thread: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/112410/if-you-regret-circumcising-your-son-s-please-post-here


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HealthyHappyMom*
> 
> My son is uncircumcised. My husband and I knew that it would have been traumatic to his physical body and emotions. We use a natural and non-toxic solution to cleanse him to prevent any infections.


Would you please share what you use? I'm genuinely curious.

And, welcome to MDC!









Sus


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

i also think that most later in life circs were probably unnecessary. one time in his mid 20's dh's foreskin got stuck behind his head. of course the dr told him he needed to be circed, thankfully DH told him where to shove it


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HealthyHappyMom*
> 
> My son is uncircumcised. My husband and I knew that it would have been traumatic to his physical body and emotions. We use a natural and non-toxic solution to cleanse him to prevent any infections.


Me too. Ours is called water.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HealthyHappyMom*
> 
> My son is uncircumcised. My husband and I knew that it would have been traumatic to his physical body and emotions. We use a natural and non-toxic solution to cleanse him to prevent any infections.


Bath water. And do not ever retract!


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## herbsmd (Jun 14, 2012)

No, but I certainly regret having had them circumcised! I think that most of the previous posters have made excellent points. That is the way their bodies were born, and that is the way they should remain. We did it--my husband had an opinion on the issue with our first born and I had not done much research. It bothered me initially, but I just assumed that it was the way things were done. In the end, we circumcised him. I later read more and wished I had not been so willing to go against my own instincts.

The worst was having a second son and having to circumcise him to be like his brother--I know I could have made them different, but it meant more to me to have them the same. Doing it the second time was just awful. They're 9 and almost 11 now and so the decision is long past. Still, there will always be an ache in my heart. I would say that, if you are in doubt, just don't do it. You could always have it done later.

Maggie


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## erinsuzy (Mar 22, 2012)

Nope! I don't regret keeping them intact! It is their body, not mine, so if they want tatoos, peircings, surgeries, body alterations etc. they can do any of that when they are consenting adults.

*The foreskin has a purpose!* I read this awesome book (free to read online):

EBook: Sex as Nature Indended It http://www.sexasnatureintendedit.com/eBook/SANII_by_chapters_in_pdf.html
The foreskin is a sleeve to cover the glans (head) and keep it an internal organ! Why are parents so willing to continue this social habit, without stopping to think what this body part may be needed for? It is actually a very positive subject if you look at its function, its uses, and not look at what could potentially go wrong. Heck, something could go wrong with any body part if you look at it that way. Don't worry about any possible amputation of your son's foreskin, there are doctors out there that ARE smart about the care of intact penises, but you have to find one. If you cannot find one that knows, then you can be the right person for the job to educate them on what not to do to your son, and you could be helping other future parents out too. That is what I had to do with two doctors, tedious yes, but it is worth it. (I wish I could remember where I once saw a list of intact friendly doctors. Maybe someone will post a link for you.)


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

http://www.thewholenetwork.org/intact-friendly-doctors.html Here is a link to a pretty good intact Dr. list by state.


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## ma2two (May 4, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinyblackdot*
> 
> I guess my concern is that i came to this thread looking for information and it seems like every other post is something about an infected penis, or UTI, or Dr saying a child needs a surgery. So to me its all good to say that circ isn't necessary, but it looks like (according to the posts on this forum at least) that there seem to be a few complications that go along with it. If not why are there so many posts about it?


Usually, there are no problems with intact penises (unless there is forced retraction, which, unfortunately, is common due to misinformation). Parents don't come here to ask questions about their lack of problems. So naturally, the majority of questions are going to be about problems (or perceived problems).


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## tonttu (Dec 24, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinyblackdot*
> 
> I guess my concern is that i came to this thread looking for information and it seems like every other post is something about an infected penis, or UTI, or Dr saying a child needs a surgery. So to me its all good to say that circ isn't necessary, but it looks like (according to the posts on this forum at least) that there seem to be a few complications that go along with it. If not why are there so many posts about it?


I think , you should wait and see first ! IF your son has a problem , that could be bettered with circumcision , then do it ( I guess )

And if he grows up like a healthy little boy should , then don´t ! After all , it´s his wiener , not yours , and if he ever chooses to , or needs to , he can have the operation , when he gets old enough to make his own decisions


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shadowdancer77*
> 
> My husband has reported that he wondered if he would be able to bond with him when he's older because they look different. I'm sad that they "look different" but honestly, I more sad that my husband had no choice. My son does.


My husband thinks this looking like dad thing is the craziest argument ever for circ'ing. His dad was circ'ed, he was not. He says that it would *never*, *never* cross his mind to compare his and his dad's penises. And, looking back, I can see that, when was the last time I compared my genitals to my mother's? Ewww!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HealthyHappyMom*
> 
> My son is uncircumcised. My husband and I knew that it would have been traumatic to his physical body and emotions. We use a natural and non-toxic solution to cleanse him to prevent any infections.


I don't think I have ever used anything other than water, and not done any active sort of cleaning at all. Child plays in the bath for an hour here and there, usually anywhere from twice a day (at his most water obsessed or on a boring day) to once a week if we're so busy we forgot to throw him in the tub. I have never had any reason to worry about infections.

eta: I have a 3 1/2 year old who is going to need general anesthesia for some serious tooth problems and we've known that he needed it since before he was 2 but we're waiting as long as possible so that he'll be bigger and stronger before the surgery and also so that we can talk with him more about happened afterward. To me it makes no sense at all to do an elective surgery at the earliest possible moment. I mean, circs are often done before the mom's milk has even come it. Baby hasn't even figured out how to eat yet. I hate to think about it...


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## HealthyHappyMom (Jul 2, 2012)

We use "my gentle baby aromatherapy care" that we buy from our practitioner. It contains baby-friendly essential oils. The container comes with a dropper top, so you can place a few drops on the head of his penis, no retracting necessary.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

I bet *dads* compare themselves to their *sons* but not the other way around. Dad is changing diapers, helping his son toilet train, so has ample opportunities for comparison. Son is a baby/little kid, and probably will not even remember what dad's penis looked like if he saw it when he was toilet training. I don't think most fathers and sons habitually get naked together.


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

I don't regret leaving my sons whole any more than I regret leaving my daughter whole. I think if a logical & reasonable person will think about it this way, then there is no argument. I have however, read the 34 pages worth of posts thread of mothers who DO regret having had their boys circumcised. http://www.mothering.com/community/t/112410/if-you-regret-circumcising-your-son-s-please-post-here

Sus


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HealthyHappyMom*
> 
> We use "my gentle baby aromatherapy care" that we buy from our practitioner. It contains baby-friendly essential oils. The container comes with a dropper top, so you can place a few drops on the head of his penis, no retracting necessary.


That's cool, although I do want to assure our OP, who already seems skittish about intact care, that this is NOT necessary. Just regular baths work fine.


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## marsupial-mom (Feb 3, 2010)

No regret. Healthy intact boy. I think I would feel a lot of guilt if I did that to my son.


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## Monkeygrrl (Oct 9, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HealthyHappyMom*
> 
> We use "my gentle baby aromatherapy care" that we buy from our practitioner. It contains baby-friendly essential oils. The container comes with a dropper top, so you can place a few drops on the head of his penis, no retracting necessary.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichelleZB*
> 
> That's cool, although I do want to assure our OP, who already seems skittish about intact care, that this is NOT necessary. Just regular baths work fine.


I have never used any sort of special oils/creams/lotions/potions/etc on either one of my boys' penii. As infants, I would wash their whole body, running the soap/rag over their penis just like I did their butt. As children, I taught them to run the soap/rag over their whole body. I have talked about them retracting and rinsing with water (no soap, ever), and how they will need to do that when they are older and able to retract themselves. But it's really not an issue, and they are perfectly fine.


----------



## ma2two (May 4, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichelleZB*
> 
> Just regular baths work fine.


And even those aren't usually necessary. It's amazing how little bathing babies and young children really need (unless they're out playing in mud).


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichelleZB*
> 
> That's cool, although I do want to assure our OP, who already seems skittish about intact care, that this is NOT necessary. Just regular baths work fine.


Yep, and just good old water.


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## tiqa (Feb 8, 2012)

To respond strictly to the original question, no, I have never regretted keeping our son intact. He has never had any issues with his foreskin. It's a total non-issue. We don't clean it specifically. We don't retract it. We don't oil it. It's not dirty. Honestly I haven't given it three minutes of thought in his life.

I also don't regret not circumsizing our daughter.


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## Tinijocaro (Jan 4, 2003)

I have two intact sons, 13 and 17 years old. Other than minor irritations when they were in diapers (same as my two daughters, who had flaming red irritations at times), my boys have had no infections, or other horrible issues.

I can say with certainty that both boys are enjoying all their parts with enthusiasm. Don't ask. Just a reminder, always knock when a door is closed. The great thing is, no tubs of lotion or vaseline needed with an intact boy. Built in lube.


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## Emma Bryan Fuller (Dec 17, 2007)

I grew up in a non circ country. Until spending time in the States I thought only Jewish people circed. I also thought it was a small snip, no big deal. My boys are 9 and 10. I have never talked about retraction with them or given them cleaning instructions. It's not even a topic of conversation, ever in a non circ country.There really are NO conversations about how to take care of a penis! The only thing I ever remember was, in a diaper change watch out for spraying pee!! that.is.it! I remember in the hospital(US) being asked he was being cut. I was confused and thought, well, if he is to be American maybe we should. Our Dr. here is Dutch. he assumes I am American. When he gave the boys a health check he almost hugged me for keeping them whole..lol

I wonder why it done within days of birth, before a baby even gets mommas milk, usually. Never got that. Surely it would be better to do a procedure(non emergency, cosmetic) at 5 years when the child can be under anesthestic and the child is known to be healthy. Just wondering how this became the norm. Pinning a childs ears back is cosmetic and nothing compared to cutting BUT i can't imagine it being done to a 2 day old.

I applaud all you Moms who go against generations and break the cycle.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I'm in the UK. I know 2 circ'd men. My father was circ'd as a child after the dr told his mother to retract and clean him thoroughly and daily from birth. The scarring became so bad he could no longer pee and they had to circ him (in the late 1940's). He was very young and doesn't know what he's missing, he doesn't regret that it was done, but he bears visible scars still, even with the worst scarred area removed, so he knows there was no choice. He did NOT seek circ for his sons and he did NOT retract his own sons to clean! My friend's husband developed buried penis and severe, persistent phimosis due to obesity. They tried numerous things over 3 years and did two buttonhole procedures but the problem persisted and eventually they had to circ. He hates it, she hates it, they have had serious problems with intimacy since (it was nearly a decade ago).

I've *ahem* been around the block. Here in the UK most guys are intact. All the guys i've been with were intact. None of them had any problems or regretted it. When you live somewhere like here, where it is normal, it takes some mind-bending to get your head around the idea that it could be seen as otherwise. As someone said above, mothers here don't talk about how to care for an intact penis, you care for it like you care for a surgically-unaltered vulva i.e. it takes care of itself. A friend's little boy has had slight infections in his penis. Both times he had a swollen and red glans (covered with the foreskin still as he couldn't yet retract) and some pus at the opening. Both times she took him to the GP. Both times the GP prescribed an antibiotic cream. Both times her son refused to let her put it on him. Both times it healed up fine without any treatment. No one EVER suggested circumcision, or even a referral to a urologist. The GP treated it as he might have a mildly infected cuticle or spot. Here's some cream, it'll probably go on it's own though. The GP said maybe it's the foreskin loosening off and a bit irritated, maybe he pulled at it and hurt himself a tiny bit, maybe the new bubblebath irritated it, maybe maybe maybe, it'll heal, no need to worry. He is now much older and his penis, and foreskin, are perfect.

Really the belief that it's a big deal is the big deal here. If you have a son just wait, leave it be and wait, and you will see, it's no big deal. For a massive part of the world it's the unquestioned normal.


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## RachaelM (Jul 14, 2012)

Just for a different perspective for you, here in the UK routine circumcision is not done, just...not at all. When I went to the states and did my doula training I was shocked to find that if the mother had a big and did not want to circ that I should follow the baby to ensure they do not 'accidentally' do it anyway. I was just...speechless.

Anyway, my point here is that I do not know ONE man that is circumcised here. Not a single freaking one. Now it's not like I've seen a lot of penises or anything







but it's so uncommon here that we would know about it, especially in school when no one has any secrets!

So...the UK is not filled with men that have smelly, unhealthy, dirty foreskins that should have been chopped off in their childhood.

And neither is the rest of the world.

It's utter nonsense.

**Edited to say: I see a lot of non US people have chipped in too. See....it's really no big deal!**


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## tinyblackdot (Aug 31, 2007)

I think the non circ of the uk is what pushed DH over to my view. We are very confident in not circ at this point IF it is a boy! Than you to all of the helpful patient information!


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinyblackdot*
> 
> I think the non circ of the uk is what pushed DH over to my view. We are very confident in not circ at this point IF it is a boy! Than you to all of the helpful patient information!










Whatever it takes! Glad things have calmed down & you don't have this to concern you any longer. I now hope that the baby is a boy! We need more intact ones ;-).

Best wishes,

Sus


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## utandy (Feb 5, 2011)

No regrets here DS is 20 and fine being intact. I don't see a need to regret something that could still be done if the penis owner wants it done. Save your regret for something that can't be undone.


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## hlg1212 (Nov 27, 2010)

I have 3 intact sons, and none has ever had an issue at all, not even anything minor. I will give my perspective on intact men in the U.S. who do "need" to be circumcised later in life- most of them did not need it. It was the ignorance of American doctors in that they were not aware of less invasive treatments. My husband is an M.D. and had an adult man with phimosis recently. The urologist had already recommended circumcision, but my husband asked the patient if he did not want to try steroid cream first because it is 85% effective. The patient said that he would definitely rather try that, and it did work. The urologist found my husband later and joked with him about losing money on that one. In his case, he was just trying to make some easy money, but some are just "innocently" ignorant as well. I have European relatives who were shocked to learn of our circumcision rates here, and they all said that there are no problems. Our culture in the U.S. seems to have created most of the issues. I think that is why you do see posts about problems when they do occur because parents are just trying to get an educated answer. Parents of intact kids are the experts on these topics in the U.S.


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## HouseofPeace (Mar 23, 2011)

My husband was pro-circ, but changed his mind when I was 7 months along. I was anti-circ, but not strong enough to fight on it (and i didn't know gender) and we have never regretted it even though i ignored all the medical recommendations to retract and clean it daily. I was of the school that I have more complicated parts than a flap of skin, and i don't retract and soap daily.... it's probably not that hard. So, no, we've never had a single problems with it, and don't regret it.

I've had 2 friends have to get their sons RE-CIRCUMCISED b/c the original surgery didn't work. These are actually 2 close friends. While non of my non-circumcising friends have had UTI's, or any other complications. I do think you seem more of the world of people coming here for advice b/c they can. And circumcision is not a guarantee of no infection or problems! As my poor friends have had to deal with. They were more scared of not doing the procedure. I don't think they regretted their choice.


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## canadianhippie (Jul 1, 2010)

I have never regretted it, I knew i wouldn't be doing it and the bio dad wasn't himself and he agreed too.

My DP isnt snipped now, and neither will any of my boys.

Never had an issue with our little guy, DP knows the ins and outs so he can teach the boys when their older

My trick for getting other people to become anti-circ is call them a penis mutilator and get them to sit through a circumcision video. (Well, depends if you know them well...worked on my bro and SIL! pro-circ to anti with a few emailed video links)


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## *MamaJen* (Apr 24, 2007)

My 4.5 year old son is intact, and we've never had any problems.

I'm about to be engaged, and my almost-fiance and I had a conversation, oh, more than a year ago about how we wouldn't circ future sons, so that's all good.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I have removed a couple of posts from this thread. The forum is called The Case Against Circumcision and we do not host posts on the benefits of circ. I've also removed any posts that quoted the posts that were in support of circ. Thanks!


----------



## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QueenOfTheMeadow*
> 
> I have removed a couple of posts from this thread. The forum is called The Case Against Circumcision and we do not host posts on the benefits of circ. I've also removed any posts that quoted the posts that were in support of circ. Thanks!


bummer. I thought I had good come backs for it all. But, I understand why you did.

Sus


----------



## htovjm (Nov 9, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QueenOfTheMeadow*
> 
> I have removed a couple of posts from this thread. The forum is called The Case Against Circumcision and we do not host posts on the benefits of circ. I've also removed any posts that quoted the posts that were in support of circ. Thanks!


OP asked if anyone hadn't circumcised there child and regretted it. I gave a situation where this turned out to be the case; it was a cousin, not just a story I've heard. I discussed more about my own experience with circumcising my son. After understanding the guidelines, I understand why this was removed from this particular forum. I suggest if OP wants to get a balanced perspective, she should post where both sides are allowed to discuss. Please take this as I mean it...not being harsh; not here to debate!


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## htovjm (Nov 9, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama24-7*
> 
> bummer. I thought I had good come backs for it all. But, I understand why you did.
> 
> Sus


Were you responding to me? You can PM if you'd like. I'm curious!


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *makaleka87*
> 
> OP asked if anyone hadn't circumcised there child and regretted it. I gave a situation where this turned out to be the case; it was a cousin, not just a story I've heard. I discussed more about my own experience with circumcising my son. After understanding the guidelines, I understand why this was removed from this particular forum. I suggest if OP wants to get a balanced perspective, she should post where both sides are allowed to discuss. Please take this as I mean it...not being harsh; not here to debate!


makaleka87...

I have to wonder if you would be suggesting the OP get a "balanced" opinion if she were talking about circ'ing her daughter?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *makaleka87*
> 
> Were you responding to me? You can PM if you'd like. I'm curious!


No, I wasn't this time. I did though to the post that was deleted. My comments on what you said to that post are below, w/ what you had said in the deleted post omitted (I got permission for this from QOTM). Since your post is no longer here, I will PM you what you said w/ my comments if that would help you to understand what I've said better.

Sus

See, the way you've presented this here, it's a parenting decision. But it is not. The only rightful person to make a decision about cosmetic alteration w/o medical need of THEIR OWN BODY is that person. Society, pro-circ doctors (usually the ones who make money off of it), circ'd men, etc., etc,. etc., will agree with you. However, your son may not. And he is the one who will have to live w/ the fact that a decision was made for him that did NOT need to be made.

Switch out son in your post for daughter. Do you feel that you had to make a decision for your daughter (if you have one or when you didn't know whether you were having a son or daughter)? Why would someone need to make this decision for their son but not their daughter?

You liken it to vax'ing. I would say that even vax'ing is a decision that can wait. Yes, it may prevent illness (which circ'ing does not). However, just like circ, vax can be done later.

You said you're not here to debate & I'm not here to attack people which I hope you don't take it as such. HOwever, this IS the case AGAINST circumcision, so I am going to disagree w/ what you've posted for the benefit of those who come after you.

Just because your son did not *appear* to suffer during the procedure, does not mean that he won't suffer later. The foreskin has a purpose for both your son & his sexual partners. (here's info on the purpose & function of the foreskin. Please educate yourself:http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/video/prepuce.html) Neither of them will have the normal experience of sex, ever. Just because he didn't feel pain isn't going to prevent his glans for keritinzing (sp?) & becoming dulled from constant friction w/ clothing (it's meant to be an internal organ, similar to how the eye is internal). Just because he didn't feel pain doesn't mean the "doctor" didn't cut off more skin than he will need to grow into (the penis continues to grow & develop until puberty or later). Just because he didn't feel pain doesn't mean his urethura (sp?) won't become irritated to the point that it closes up (becuase it's meant to stay inside the protective covering of the foreskin) & need surgical reopening. I could go on, but I have to tend to my family right now.

I'm sorry that your son was circumcised. I do hope you research this further and decide to leave any future children you have whole. It's their body after all & they have a right to their WHOLE body.

All the best,

Sus


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## htovjm (Nov 9, 2011)

Thank you Mama24-7 for taking the time to explain. I certainly appreciate your passion in this area and your ability to express something so delicate with care and sensitivity! I don't want to go into our personal reasons for circumcising DS because I know this isn't the place for it. But as any parent does, we did what we thought was best for DS. I know because of what you've said that this may baffle you, but people don't always agree and that is the way humankind is.

When I originally posted in this forum, I didn't review the rules first and I'm certainly sorry for that. I didn't wish to get anyone upset!


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *makaleka87* 

Thank you Mama24-7 for taking the time to explain. I certainly appreciate your passion in this area and your ability to express something so delicate with care and sensitivity! I don't want to go into our personal reasons for circumcising DS because I know this isn't the place for it. But as any parent does, we did what we thought was best for DS. I know because of what you've said that this may baffle you, but people don't always agree and that is the way *humankind* is.

When I originally posted in this forum, I didn't review the rules first and I'm certainly sorry for that. I didn't wish to get anyone upset!

Wow, that's the first compliment I've ever gotten on my intactivism.

I find it interesting that you mention "humankind." A child has no say, no power, no voice; how are they being treated humanely in being circumcised? Would it be humane to circumcise you without your consent? What other peoples bodies can we alter without their permission? Children deserve the same care & respect that every other individual deserves.

Additionally, you say that people don't always agree & that is the way humankind is. The reasons given for FGM (female genital mutilation) are pretty much the same reasons given for doing this to boys here. Do you feel the same way about those who commit FGM? That "that is the way humankind is?"

I have no doubt that you made (as most parents do) the best decision you could have at the time. However, when you know better, you do better. You did not answer my question:

Quote:

Originally Posted by *mama24-7* 

makaleka87...

I have to wonder if you would be suggesting the OP get a "balanced" opinion if she were talking about circ'ing her daughter?

No matter what your reason (and when your son is old enough & finds out what he is missing, he may decide that he wanted that part of his body) is, your son may not agree with you. If a parent leaves their child whole, they if the child doesn't agree, they can make the change. When a parent decides to alter their child, then the child has no choice. No matter what anyone tells you, this is NOT a parenting decision any more than it is a parenting decision to circumcise your daughter or to leave her whole. It is not your son's fault that he was born male & born into this culture that does not value his WHOLE body.










As I said in my first response to you, I hope that you will research this before you have another child. Every person has a right to their whole body, regardless of what those around them think/feel/believe. I do hope you will leave any future children whole.

All the best,

Sus


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## Rylins mama (Aug 22, 2007)

2 intact boys and I would never change it or make a different decision.


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

Wouldn't dream of it. My son is two and seeing boys who are circumcised is weird and sad now... it just looks all wrong. Haven't had the slightest hint of any issue with anything, and he's pretty.. er.. rough with his bits.


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## FeralFox (Oct 25, 2011)

My intact son is 4 1/2. No issues, no regrets. My intact husband is 29. No regrets from him either, and his functions just fine, thanks, despite having the dreaded "hidden/buried penis" that some doctors will tell you absolutely requires circumcision. I'm 39 weeks pregnant with our first child together, a little girl who will also remain intact, so clearly his "OMG circ it now" problem isn't actually a problem at all.


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## distraughtmama (Aug 15, 2012)

I made the choice to circumcise my son. When I met with the doctor who would be performing the surgery, I found out that even if I didn't have it done as an infant, my son would have to have it done later in life. We were informed (by multiple doctors) that my son had phimosis. In his case, the opening of the foreskin would not be large enough for the head to come out. I was told this would result in painful erections and even infections. So, although I made the choice prior to knowing this...I am glad I made the choice I did. I did plenty of research prior to the decision and I stand strong in my choice. I understand that not everyone believes in circumcision, and that is their choice and I respect that.


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *distraughtmama*
> 
> I made the choice to circumcise my son. When I met with the doctor who would be performing the surgery, I found out that even if I didn't have it done as an infant, my son would have to have it done later in life. We were informed (by multiple doctors) that my son had phimosis. In his case, the opening of the foreskin would not be large enough for the head to come out. I was told this would result in painful erections and even infections. So, although I made the choice prior to knowing this...I am glad I made the choice I did. I did plenty of research prior to the decision and I stand strong in my choice. I understand that not everyone believes in circumcision, and that is their choice and I respect that.


Welcome to MDC!







I do hope you will stick around.

I'm sorry to hear, for you & your son that the doctors, all of them, that "informed" you, were not foreskin & normal penis knowledgable. I'm telling you this so that if you have more children, none of the rest will suffer the same fate. The human penis is not fully developed at birth. The foreskin is fused to the head of the penis & the opening acts like a sphynicter (sp?), similar to the anus, to let urine out. It is supposed to be this way because it is not fully developed.

You can learn more about & share with your doctors, this link: http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/video/prepuce.html Another one: http://icgi.org/Downloads/FD2.pdf This was a lecture given at Georgetown University: 




I wonder how these doctors knew that your son would need a circumcision later? I wonder what information they were going on that led them to that conclusion? I wonder if they were intact or themselves circumcised? I wonder if they had left any children of theirs intact?

We live is a foreskin-phobic society, unfortunately. I would bet that had you had your son in the UK, he'd still have his foreskin. If he was born in South America, he'd still have his foreskin. You would not be able to find a doctor in those parts of the world who said that he "needs" a circumcision, at birth or likely at any other time in his life.

Distraughtmama, you're not the first mother to be misinformed by the medical professionals. There is post after post here: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/112410/if-you-regret-circumcising-your-son-s-please-post-here

Clearly you thought you were doing what was best for him, following the advice of the doctors. I'm so sorry for the two of you. You aren't the first & until every doctor is either prevented from performing prepuce amputation or is fully educated, you won't be the last. But you can learn from this & not repeat the mistake with future children. You wouldn't be the first mama to be in that position either! After all, when you know better, you do better.







.

Best wishes to you & your son,

Sus


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## distraughtmama (Aug 15, 2012)

The choice to circumcise was made prior to the knowledge of his medical needs. I believe in circumcision, and that it is the right choice for my family. I understand that you feel i was misinformed, but I was not. A few of the doctors I saw regarding his condition were against circumcision, and still said that it would be a procedure he would need in the future. I did plenty of research on the issue and realize it is "taboo" now-a-days. But I know that I made the right choice for me and my family. It is the same choice I would make for any future son I might have. I respect those who choose to not have it done, but it is not what I believe in. I'm sorry you feel that because I made the choice that I was misinformed about the procedure....but I know exactly what it entails and even witnessed it. Everyone has a right to his/her own opinions.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

I don't understand why he would *need* it in the future.

How did humankind survive and thrive prior to circumcision even being thought of, if it is necessary?

I made a unilateral, impromptu decision to leave my son whole. I thought I could have it done later, after getting more information. I have yet to find anything that has convinced me to change that original decision. By now, that decision belongs to my son. I doubt he'll be changing it, either.

My own father, I discovered, was whole, and he was very healthy until in his eighties. Unfortunately, at that time he started having serious health issues, not one involving circumcision as the solition, though.


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *distraughtmama* 

The choice to circumcise was made prior to the knowledge of his medical needs. I believe in circumcision, and that it is the right choice for my family.

If you ddin't live in a circ'ing CULTure, you wouldn't believe this. Find me a secular English woman who does. No one here is going to tell you YOU can't get yourself circ'd. YOUR son may not agree w/ what YOU thought was "the right choice for my family." But the choice has now been taken from him.









Quote:

Originally Posted by *distraughtmama* 
I understand that you feel i was misinformed, but I was not. A few of the doctors I saw regarding his condition were against circumcision, and still said that it would be a procedure he would need in the future.

Again, how did they know? How is it that a child who has not gone through puberty, who is born w/ the foreskin fused as is normal, & has a penis that is not fully developed, how can they gaurantee he'd need it later? And, even if he did, he would be given proper pain relief, meds for pain afterwards & most of all, he wouldn't have to worry about the open wound sitting in feces & urine & he wouldn't have had to worry that they'd take more skin than he needed to grow into (you know, there is no dotted line that says "cut here") so his penis won't curve when he gets an erection becuase there's not enough skin or that the hair from his scrotum won't pull up onto his penis when he gets an erection becuase they took too much skin, etc., etc., etc.

It is cosemtic surgery & it was his choice to make. He no longer has that choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *distraughtmama* 
I did plenty of research on the issue and realize it is "taboo" now-a-days.

You can call it taboo, it's a human rights violation. And, it's no more taboo than female genital cutting is. You are also in the case AGAINST circumcision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *distraughtmama* 
But I know that I made the right choice for me and my family.

You son may not agree w/ the decision you made but he will not be able to do anything about it once he realizes what was taken from him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *distraughtmama* 
I respect those who choose to not have it done, but it is not what I believe in. I'm sorry you feel that because I made the choice that I was misinformed about the procedure....but I know exactly what it entails and even witnessed it. Everyone has a right to his/her own opinions.

I'm sorry for what was taken from your son w/o his consent.







OMGoodness, I can't believe that you could witness that.







I have nightmares after accidentally seeing a circ.









Quote:

Originally Posted by *distraughtmama* 
Everyone has a right to his/her own opinions.
And your son has a right to his whole body & that trumps your right to your opinion.

Sus


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

Yes, everyone has the right to their own opinions, but they do not have the right to their own facts. There used to be the belief, and the belief still lingers in some regions to an extent, that the foreskin in intact infants needed to be retracted and cleaned daily. Doing this caused pain, bleeding, infection, and scar tissue development. After that kind of damage, the recurrent infections and the scarring caused dr's to then advise circumcision. The damage is 100% preventable by not messing with the foreskin. leave it completely alone. (Boys can, and they DO, play with it plenty. they won't hurt themselves) The other misconception that causes some dr's to advise a circ is a nonretractible foreskin. There is a wide range of normal for when it retracts on its own. Before it does, the opening may appear to be a "pinhole" or even not visible at all. This is all normal. If it can't retract by the teen years, if the boy chooses, he may do stretching exercises in addition to a steroid cream. In some regions of the US, most drs haven't ever seen a foreskin unless they were preparing to cut it off. They simply do not have enough experience to have any idea what is normal development.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

The decision can't be right "for your family". What does your son's foreskin have to do with your family? It's not your family's penis, it's his penis. You're pretending it should be a family decision, but it isn't. It's like saying that cutting off his finger was the right decision "for your family" or marrying him to a woman you chose was right "for your family".

Infants can't have phimosis, so there's no way your infant son could have been diagnosed with it. All infant foreskins are fused to the penis, whether they will later develop problems (rare) or not.

People have a right to their opinions, but that doesn't mean we can't think your opinion is silly, or misinformed. And I do think that.

I should be so harsh. I realize that you have to defend circumcision, because you did it to your son, and to admit circumcision is wrong would be to admit that you injured your son on purpose. That is a horrifying thought, and one some mothers go to great lengths to avoid thinking. I understand that. But please, for the sake of your future sons, read some more threads on this board. Circumcision is an unnecessary cosmetic procedure, and the doctors who told you that your infant son had phimosis were mistaken.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Distraughtmama-

Welcome to MDC. I would like to draw your attention to the forum guidlines. 

Quote:


> Mothering questions routine medical circumcision and advocates for informed consent. TCAC hosts discussion of the reasons to avoid circumcision, the history of the procedure, medical issues and studies, complications, the needs and rights of the child, care of the intact child's penis and other educational topics. We are not interested in hosting discussion on merits of routine infant medical circumcision.


I've allowed a few of the posts to remain in order to allow the opportunity to address some common misinformation regarding circumcision for future members, but I have removed a few as well. In the future, if you choose to post in TCAC, remember the purpose and forum guidlines of this forum. Thank you!


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## TheDanaK (Dec 1, 2011)

My son is intact. We have had no issues with his foreskin, nor did we expect to. Care is easy - clean it like a finger. My grandfather never had problems with his foreskin from birth, through WW2, & eventually in a nursing home. I don't expect my son to encounter any problems, either.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Greg- Just a heads up, because your post came across as debating the poster and not the post, it has been removed.


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

I was scrolling through a bunch of circ quotes tonight, and this one made me think of the recent & not-so-recent discussion in this thread: "Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn." Benjamin Franklin.

Sus


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QueenOfTheMeadow*
> 
> Greg- Just a heads up, because your post came across as debating the poster and not the post, it has been removed.


OK, I didn't mean it that way, nor did I read it that way. My intention was to draw attention to the words used and think about how that may give inisght into how they make decisions. My post was actually directed toward the others reading or participating.

I find this to be potentially important in understanding how to discuss and or make points when this or other issues come up in discussion. Someone using logic and objective based decision making can usually be swayed by logic and citing studies.

Someone who is using what I would call faith based reasoning, whether religous derived, or secular, needs a different approach, in my experience. For them, you need to understand enough of there assumtions and then sort out how to work with those assumtions first.

But thanks for the heads up, I can see you or others reading between the lines and feeling like I was attacking her.

Regards


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## artekah (Apr 26, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Greg B*
> 
> Quote: Originally Posted by QueenOfTheMeadow Greg- Just a heads up, because your post came across as debating the poster and not the post, it has been removed. Someone who is using what I would call faith based reasoning, whether religous derived, or secular, needs a different approach, in my experience. For them, you need to understand enough of there assumtions and then sort out how to work with those assumtions first. But thanks for the heads up, I can see you or others reading between the lines and feeling like I was attacking her. Regards


I find this really interesting. If you are willing to discuss, what do you think are some of the common assumptions surrounding circumcision that keep people in that faith-based mode where they won't respond to reason or facts? And how do you work with those assumptions so you can get to the point where you're speaking the same language, if you will?

I struggle with this a lot, because when you simply look at the information before you, it is SO completely obvious that infant circumcision is SO completely wrong. It is a no-brainer, once you know the basic facts (and I mean BASIC, like reading one page on the functions of the foreskin.) I've always assumed that if we could just make sure everyone has the facts, the practice would just stop immediately. But obviously it's not that simple. So how do you talk to people who are not only uninformed but also invested in faith-based thinking around the subject? In a way that actually makes a difference for more little boys?

ETA: Perhaps that is a better discussion for a new thread. Didn't mean to go off topic! But I am interested in communication strategies for bridging the gap on this issue.


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## artekah (Apr 26, 2009)

Double post


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## herbsmd (Jun 14, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *artekah*
> 
> I find this really interesting. If you are willing to discuss, what do you think are some of the common assumptions surrounding circumcision that keep people in that faith-based mode where they won't respond to reason or facts? And how do you work with those assumptions so you can get to the point where you're speaking the same language, if you will?
> I struggle with this a lot, because when you simply look at the information before you, it is SO completely obvious that infant circumcision is SO completely wrong. It is a no-brainer, once you know the basic facts (and I mean BASIC, like reading one page on the functions of the foreskin.) I've always assumed that if we could just make sure everyone has the facts, the practice would just stop immediately. But obviously it's not that simple. So how do you talk to people who are not only uninformed but also invested in faith-based thinking around the subject? In a way that actually makes a difference for more little boys?


I just circumcised my boys out of ignorance--I didn't even know that there was such a thing as foreskin, or that my husband was circumcised at all!!! I had very little understanding of penis anatomy and I didn't think of it before hand. I had a jewish doctor who sort-of didn't understand why I wouldn't circ. and a husband who was already circ'd and didn't understand either. I certainly regret my decision, but these days lose little sleep over it because they're fine, healthy, and it can no longer be changed without a traumatic experience again (they're 9 and 11, and frankly I think they'd think I was crazy if I told them we were having a surgery to put skin over their penis).

One thing I think that could make it easier to talk to people is not to assume that the information is given. I'm a fairly bright woman with advanced degrees and all of that kind of thing. Still, penis anatomy that I learned somewhere in grade school or high school somehow didn't stick in my brain (I wasn't paying attention) and those first few days of parenting were shocking on their own--a little circumcision didn't seem too far-fetched with all of the other things that I had just seen for the first time. Then, knowing that my brothers were all circumcised made it that much easier (I called my mom first, just to check).

I am the kind of person who listens well to facts and to ideas around them--I can tell you that, if I had been informed, I would never have chosen circumcision. But I can also say that people can often be offensive when they feel that they have a purchase on the "right" answer. Ideally, we all have to make decisions for ourselves. That is the part of parenting (and life!) that is the hardest. I think you can do what I do and not make people feel badly for what choices they've already made (and always be mindful that you can't see in a boys pants--the people you least suspect that would make that decision just MIGHT have!). I can tell you that I will advise my sons and daughter against circumcision in the future, and I am sure that this discussion will only go on for a generation or more. Some will be lost in the battle--mine were. Unfortunately, the best you can do is to accept that unfortunate fact and get on with informing people as best you can. Hopefully, the less people are offended by the subject, the better on we'll all be. Hopefully, in the end, we can stop this rather inhumane procedure.

Maggie


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Maggie i think what you said is very insightful and it actually applies to a lot of things.

I have had 2 homebirths and my main motivators were a real fear of being out of control in a hospital environment and being forced to have interventions i didn't want. All my friends know my choices and my reasoning and all but one of them ended up with a disappointing/traumatic first birth because though they understood, theoretically, why i did what i did, they didn't REALLY get what i was on about until they had hindsight. They all knew the basic facts about birth and i'd told them that if you go somewhere where there's a 60% cs rate you're more likely to get a cs than not, but they didn't "get" what i meant, truly, until they were post cs and looking over notes on a fairly normal labour disrupted by interventions. So even giving people information, doesn't necessarily they will KNOW afterwards.

I think a lot of decisions we make can be that way. I had a thyroid problem after i'd had DD1 and in order to make sure she "had enough milk" i ended up topping up with formula (because my supply was dropping and she was hungry). Of course within a few weeks she was weaned because she began to refuse the breast and my supply totally bombed. But i thought the "don't mix feeds unless you're willing to wean completely" advice didn't apply to ME, someone who had BFed for 4 months already - i thought it only applied to women with newborns struggling to get a good latch! I look back and know that though my thyroid problem was at the root of my supply issues i COULD have avoided weaning if i'd fed fed fed and never offered alternative milks and pumped and taken herbs and so on. I know now, having pumped for a friend and managed to increase by 9oz/day on herbs and pumping, having BFed #2 for 2 years, what is possible. Back then i just. didn't. know. And being told unfortunately didn't really change that.


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## herbsmd (Jun 14, 2012)

> "So even giving people information, doesn't necessarily [mean that] they will KNOW afterwards. I think a lot of decisions we make can be that way... Back then i just. didn't. know. And being told unfortunately didn't really change that."


I hope you don't mind that I just took this part of your quote...but for some reason it just summed up my experience parenting PERFECTLY!!!

Heh!! If we knew then what we know now...how differently would we parent? I did a lot of things right...but I did a lot more of them wrong. The funniest part about it all is that the more I learn, the less I feel like I know! A very humbling experience to be sure!!!

How wonderful that women have the internet, rapid communication, digital technology, and all of these new inventions by which to share information. If only I could have texted a girlfriend with a son and asked her opinion on circumcision...she probably would have had articles right on her phone that she could have forwarded to me 

Thank you for sharing your experience!!

Maggie


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## rondloper (Aug 15, 2012)

I do. Had way too many foreskin issues growing up. Phimosis stayed no matter how much the doctor stretched my foreskin.


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

That's too bad Rondloper, sorry you had trouble. Luckily, true phimosis is a rare occurence (someone help me... in countries that are informed about intact penises, it's like 1%, right?)... meanwhile, unfortunately, once it's cut, and you have a problem, you can't do much.. like my friend's son, poor little guy's penis is in constant pain and needs corrective surgery due to a botched circ  I'm pretty sure this is not such a rare occurance here in the states.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rondloper*
> 
> I do. Had way too many foreskin issues growing up. Phimosis stayed no matter how much the doctor stretched my foreskin.


The very act of the Dr. "stretching" your foreskin is probably what caused the problems. I dont know what age you where when the Dr. started doing this but I do know that repeat force retraction of the foreskin causes scar tissue leading to true phimosis down the road. It used to be thought that the foreskin should be retracted and cleaned from birth and many Dr's would forcibly do this at every appt. and mothers where told to do it at every diaper change. We now know that this is actually what caused many of the issues with the foreskin and that it should never be done.

I am sorry that you went through so much growing up. It makes me even more thankful for the internet and boards like this one that actually teach parents how to protect their children from Dr's who are still not up to date on the proper intact care ie leaving it alone to let nature take its course.


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## rondloper (Aug 15, 2012)

Started around the age of six. Urinating became very painful and the foreskin just started getting tighter and tighter. It had never been retracted before. At that age, it should have been a lot looser, maybe fully retractable, but was not. The doctor did not try to pull back the foreskin at all, the first thing he did was to insert a blunt probe to feel how loose it was and it was about 50% loose at the time. He then used a forceps to stretch the retractable part of the foreskin and in the process of doing this scarred the glans with gouges as well as tore the inner foreskin. This happened many times over a few years. I used to try to retract it on my own and it was very painful and a few times the foreskin got stuck behind the glans. At age ten or so the last of the foreskin tore away from the glans. I was shocked at the buildup of smegma. That was an incredible turnoff. Never could get rid of the stuff. At that point the outer foreskin was regularly tearing with retraction as well. It was very painful when this happened. Overall I always had a feeling of pressure around my glans which was very uncomfortable almost all the time.

Tammy, to answer your question on percentages in countries that do not circumcise as we do here in the US where foreskin problems occur, I would guess way more than 1%. There are no statistics as to what percentage of uncircumcised boys/men have foreskin issues as none of these are every published. Depending on what stats are published, I would say that figure is probably about 10% on the low end and as high as about 20% on the high end. I grew up outside the US, where circumcision was not widely practiced at all, and from what I recall, there were at least 5 or 6 of my friends that all had similar problems and I know at least 4 of them finally got circumcised because of it. If I recall about 1/3 (10 - 12) were circumcised from early school days in the gym showers. Towards the end of high school there were probably another 5 or 6 that had been circumcised as well. So that would make it closer to 50% by the time we were all sexually active.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rondloper*
> 
> Started around the age of six. Urinating became very painful and the foreskin just started getting tighter and tighter. It had never been retracted before. At that age, it should have been a lot looser, maybe fully retractable, but was not. The doctor did not try to pull back the foreskin at all, the first thing he did was to insert a blunt probe to feel how loose it was and it was about 50% loose at the time. He then used a forceps to stretch the retractable part of the foreskin and in the process of doing this scarred the glans with gouges as well as tore the inner foreskin. This happened many times over a few years. I used to try to retract it on my own and it was very painful and a few times the foreskin got stuck behind the glans. At age ten or so the last of the foreskin tore away from the glans. I was shocked at the buildup of smegma. That was an incredible turnoff. Never could get rid of the stuff. At that point the outer foreskin was regularly tearing with retraction as well. It was very painful when this happened. Overall I always had a feeling of pressure around my glans which was very uncomfortable almost all the time.
> 
> Tammy, to answer your question on percentages in countries that do not circumcise as we do here in the US where foreskin problems occur, I would guess way more than 1%. There are no statistics as to what percentage of uncircumcised boys/men have foreskin issues as none of these are every published. Depending on what stats are published, I would say that figure is probably about 10% on the low end and as high as about 20% on the high end. I grew up outside the US, where circumcision was not widely practiced at all, and from what I recall, there were at least 5 or 6 of my friends that all had similar problems and I know at least 4 of them finally got circumcised because of it. If I recall about 1/3 (10 - 12) were circumcised from early school days in the gym showers. Towards the end of high school there were probably another 5 or 6 that had been circumcised as well. So that would make it closer to 50% by the time we were all sexually active.


20% of intact boys having problems? That's 1 in 5! That seems extremely high to me, seeing as how I know lots of intact men and exactly none of them have suffered the least inconvenience. I am suspicious of your post, rondloper.


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

I am sorry you had to go through that, as I'm sure it was painful (like it is for newborns) and traumatic (like it is for newborns). I do thank you for contributing though, because your thoughts are valued, as is sharing your experience. It has an important place in the discussion. But as a mom who was so worried about the decision (and as a marketing person who understands how this thread will probably pop up in many google searches  I just want to put it in perspective for others...

*This from the Canadian Pediatric Society*

"Of every 1,000 boys who *are not* circumcised:


7 will be admitted to hospital for a UTI before they are one year old.

10 will have a circumcision later in life for medical reasons, such as a condition called phimosis. Phimosis is when the opening of the foreskin is scarred and narrow because of infections in the area that keep coming back. Older children who are circumcised may need a general anesthetic, and may have more complications than newborns."

so that would be 1%

*Furthermore:*

Of every 1,000 boys who *are* circumcised:


20 to 30 will have a surgical complication, such as too much bleeding or infection in the area.

2 to 3 will have a more serious complication that needs more treatment. Examples include having too much skin removed or more serious bleeding.

2 will be admitted to hospital for a urinary tract infection (UTI) before they are one year old.

About 10 babies may need to have the circumcision done again because of a poor result.

http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/handouts/circumcision


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

Just to make sure I'm being clear... it would seem that whether the child starts out circumcised or not, 1% will have to have it done again... so why do it in the first place if that is what you are worried about?

*edited to add*

I was thinking about this, for the sake of other parents who are searching for answers. I'm sure one would come back "surely if 1% had to be circumcised, there were many more who suffered problems without ending up circumcised." I thought I would try and answer that.

1) Being alive has the general side-effect of occasional health problems... sometimes even serious ones (this applies to all body parts)

2) Just because only 1% of circ'd boys have to be re-circ'd, that doesn't account for the many, many more who suffer problems with things like too-tight cut, skin bridges and meatal stenosis.

*My take-home point, for a mama or papa who is in the mental place I was two years ago.... Problems can happen no matter what you choose. Why not let your child stay as they were meant to be? If something comes up... deal with it when you actually know what the problem is. I can tell you that the minute my son was born, all of my trepidations and my husband's protest evaporated. His penis is fine, his foreskin is ridiculously benign and easy to care for... not even getting diaper rash once. All you need to know is this: Take good care of them. Make sure you are getting proper medical advice. Nature knows what to do * (after all... have you ever heard of a dog/cat/cow/horse/ANY OTHER MAMMAL needing circumcision... even though they don't have thumbs or access to showers? Isn't that a weird thought? Of course... because having foreskin is NORMAL, just remember that

(PS, directed at rond... being circumcised is normal too! if you are an adult, or old enough to know that is what you want or need, than it is merely a medical tool... neither good nor bad. I just want to make sure circ'd guys reading this don't feel attacked, because that isn't the point of this discussion)


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

How many of the 1% were caused by doctors or nurses not knowing how to handle (or when not to handle) a whole penis?


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## rondloper (Aug 15, 2012)

Michelle,yYour call on what you want to believe or not. I am not disputing, just stating what I was exposed to and those that I know that had foreskin issues growing up. Again I will state, foreskin issues are not statistics that are recorded. You are entitled to your opinion.


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## rondloper (Aug 15, 2012)

Tammy, this is an extremely heated debate and a very sensitive issue for many, yet others feel its very normal to be circumcised even those that were not done at birth, but at a later time in life. I like the way you call it a medical tool. Thanks!


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

rondloper-

I want to direct your attention to our forum guidlines.

Quote:


> We are not interested in hosting discussion on merits of routine infant medical circumcision.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *artekah*
> 
> I find this really interesting. If you are willing to discuss, what do you think are some of the common assumptions surrounding circumcision that keep people in that faith-based mode where they won't respond to reason or facts? And how do you work with those assumptions so you can get to the point where you're speaking the same language, if you will?
> I struggle with this a lot, because when you simply look at the information before you, it is SO completely obvious that infant circumcision is SO completely wrong. It is a no-brainer, once you know the basic facts (and I mean BASIC, like reading one page on the functions of the foreskin.) I've always assumed that if we could just make sure everyone has the facts, the practice would just stop immediately. But obviously it's not that simple. So how do you talk to people who are not only uninformed but also invested in faith-based thinking around the subject? In a way that actually makes a difference for more little boys?
> ETA: Perhaps that is a better discussion for a new thread. Didn't mean to go off topic! But I am interested in communication strategies for bridging the gap on this issue.


I am, but think we should probably do that in the subsection on intactivism. I will start a new thread there.

Cheers!


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## herbsmd (Jun 14, 2012)

That was great, Tammy: I like to think of it as a medical tool too. Although my boys are circ'd unnecessarily (read my previous posts for explanation), I do think that it's a great way to put it in proper perspective. You wouldn't give your child a sinus lift or a nose-job (even if you had had a problem with your sinuses or were self-conscious of your nose) at birth, even if you thought they might run into trouble later on. If they needed it when they were older, or wanted cosmetic surgery when they were adults, you would advise them based on your experience, but you wouldn't necessarily just standardize the procedure at birth.

I think that's a great way to think about circumcisions: totally unnecessary unless problems arise.

Again, if I had the chance to make over, I would rather circumcise my child at a later date if I found it to be a problem than to change them at birth. Why perform any surgeries if you don' t have to? I think it's much better to do later in life anyway. Less risk of infection (no diapers, no fecal contamination) and the ability to communicate pain: these are two things that posed problems for me when my boys were infants.

Maggie


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## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

I do not regret it at all. Here is why:

After asking my husband to research it and after his horror learning so much he is 100% against it. He has that opinion 7 years ago and still has it. He wishes his mother would have known better. Every man I know who has researched it feels much the same way my husband does it seems.

Another reason I do not regret it is that my sons body is simply not my own and he can make that choice when he is older if he chooses. Body modification is painful, be it breast enlargement, a nose job, or penis change. If they really want it, they will get it. There is evidence showing how harmful it can be as an infant, I think a grown man can choose to take the risks, choose to deal with the pain. Our minds remember everything and everything we experience effects us, even if we are not aware of it.

You are the Mom though, you have to live your life in a way that is right for you. Plus, I could always be wrong!  I will say I am happy with my choice to not have my son changed in that way.


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## tiqa (Feb 8, 2012)

FWIW... Even if the number was as high as 1 out of 5 boys having issues with their foreskin (which I doubt is really that high) that means that 4 out of 5 do NOT have issues. So the odds are in your favor. If 4/5 boys went on to have problems, that would make more sense to me, but to cut off a body part on the really off chance that something MIGHT happen... it doesn't make sense to me.

Also, since when is a UTI considered to be drastic enough to require, again, the cutting off of a body part? I've had UTI's before. OK, I'm a woman, so they're not exactly the same. But they're not pleasant. And once or twice I did end up in the ER and needed strong antibiotics, the infection spread to my kidneys, it sucked hardcore. Bad, bad, bad. I would NOT wish that on my child. But even if that was the case, I still wouldn't recommend a routine circ to prevent that!! Maybe if you had them really often and there was NO other way to handle it (diet or anything)... but not just as a routine intervention for it.

ITA with the poster who said that for cases when there IS a true medical necessity for it, and can be helpful, great. (Like a C-section!) Just like amputating any other body part. If I have gangrene on my toe, I would rather have it cut off than to have it spread to my leg and then kill me. But you don't just amputate body parts before there's even an infection, because there MIGHT be an infection down the line. It just doesn't make sense to me.


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## Blueberry159 (Dec 19, 2011)

My first son is circumcised and it is my deepest regret. The surgery was extremely painful for him, and he has had common complications.

My second son is healthy and intact. He has benefitted from his foreskin, and will continue to benefit for the rest of his life. I am so glad we learned more and did better for our second son.


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blueberry159*
> 
> My first son is circumcised and it is my deepest regret. The surgery was extremely painful for him, and he has had common complications.










to you both.

So glad you learned more before you had your second son.

Best wishes,

Sus


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## herbsmd (Jun 14, 2012)

That was my most difficult decision, Blueberry. My boys were 16 months apart, tandem breastfed and they are best buddies. I knew that I didn't want to have my second son circumcised, but I just couldn't bring myself to make them different. I was not as brave as you...that takes a lot of courage!!! If I had another boy now (my boys are 11 and 9), I would absolutely not circumcise him. But it was so much harder when they were so close together.

That is really great!!! I wish I could have been so strong...

Maggie


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## azzeps (Sep 7, 2007)

I don't regret keeping my son intact. He's just 14 months old, but we haven't had any problems. I do suppose the new AAP guidelines gave me pause and made me think, "did I make the right decision?" And I still think I did. It's his penis. If he wants to have it circumcised, I will absolutely support his decision to do that. If he develops any medical issues with it down the road, we can consider circumcision if that will address the issues, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it. I just didn't see any need to do the procedure now, "just in case" something happens. The benefits are teeny tiny, in my opinion, and may or may not be based on good, solid medical research. Also, I figured the pain management would be better, if the procedure is needed later on. He would actually be able to say that he can feel it, whereas a newborn can't communicate. He would also have pain medication for during recovery, and I don't think that's done for newborns.


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## tiqa (Feb 8, 2012)

Does anyone have statistics on how many men CHOOSE to get circumcised, as adults? I'm thinking specifically for non-medical reasons. Like... how many men think, as adults... hey, I want my penis to look like my dad's? Etc. (I'm thinking not many, but hey, I'm sure there are some out there. I know a gal who volunteered to have her breasts removed completely because she just didn't like them... so I guess there are all sorts.)


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## mysticalmarg (May 23, 2005)

Well I will turn the HEAVY TIDE of answers here in a different direction. I sought out this thread because of a conversation I'm having with my 18yo daughter about circumsizing any future male children she may birth. I have one son biologically, hence had the decision making power to spare him the brutality of the "practice". He is 14, happy to have his foreskin and had one yeast infection that cleared up easily because I was lucky enough to have a British intern in the ER who knew all about healthy, unmutilated penis's. You can imagine my shock and dismay to hear my newly adult daughter say she plans to circumcise! Aaaaah, Ugh! Why? I ask her? Her reply-

She has been in a position to know quite well 3 different male friends in her peer group who are intact and have been very UNHAPPY about not having been cut. Imagine my horror! Really....this isn't supposed to be part of the story! Now these are 3 different families, the boys unrelated in any way, except they are all Unitarian (which I like to believe has more than its share of enlightened people- hence the common-ness of no circumcision). The boys complaints come not from embarrassment or wanting to fit in or be like their dad's, rather, they report painful sex. I don't know details. But I find it a concern. One of the young men is gay, the others straight, and each talks about having the surgery- not as a group mind you, each on their own.

My first thought was wondering about whether their glans had come out, loosening the foreskin appropriately. Is it workin like it's supposed to? My own son was an early bird with this -age 3 and has never been a problem. I worry about this because I have both a nephew and now an adopted son from Vietnam who are ages 15 and 13 and still haven't had the foreskin pull back naturally on its own.

Soooo -that's my story! I don't find the original question in this thread as clearly absurd as some seem to find it. As a huge advocate for abandoning circumcision, I can't ignore my anecdotal "pool" of data. I'm hoping for some answers to give my daughter that can fill in the whole picture, still holding that intact is always best!


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## snip (Oct 6, 2012)

Boys deserve to be able to grow into men with a member which needs no special attention, nor has any issues with separation

. A member which does not harbor infection under a superfluous prepuce. An efficient, robust, and mighty phallus, not a sickly, special needs penis fraught with developmental problems.

Did you ever stop to think that the people who conceived the practice of circumcision were not cruel barbarians, but rather were possessed of a practical wisdom and insight which is all too uncommon these days ???

I would certainly rather no foreskin at all than one which does not function correctly, rendering my penis useless for its intended purpose. Try reading some men's health forums sometime, to discover the true extent of the problems caused by foreskins.

Young men write desperately seeking the advice of others, hoping to alleviate the physical and psychological torment and anguish of having some functional impairment related to being " intact".

PROPERLY performed circumcision is very advantageous, therapeutically speaking.

I imagine a lot of people are deterred from circumcising their children because of a horror story of a botched circumcision they heard of somewhere.

It is unfortunate that some "practitioners" have defiled the image of circumcision.

Just my $ 0.02


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Boys have a right to grow into men who are whole and have the right to decide for themselves, and not have that right taken away based on misinformation and rhetoric.

Edited to add : I'll read those sad stories you mentioned, if you will provide me with the sites. Thanks!


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mysticalmarg*
> 
> Well I will turn the HEAVY TIDE of answers here in a different direction. I sought out this thread because of a conversation I'm having with my 18yo daughter about circumsizing any future male children she may birth. I have one son biologically, hence had the decision making power to spare him the brutality of the "practice". He is 14, happy to have his foreskin and had one yeast infection that cleared up easily because I was lucky enough to have a British intern in the ER who knew all about healthy, unmutilated penis's. You can imagine my shock and dismay to hear my newly adult daughter say she plans to circumcise! Aaaaah, Ugh! Why? I ask her? Her reply-
> She has been in a position to know quite well 3 different male friends in her peer group who are intact and have been very UNHAPPY about not having been cut. Imagine my horror! Really....this isn't supposed to be part of the story! Now these are 3 different families, the boys unrelated in any way, except they are all Unitarian (which I like to believe has more than its share of enlightened people- hence the common-ness of no circumcision). The boys complaints come not from embarrassment or wanting to fit in or be like their dad's, rather, they report painful sex. I don't know details. But I find it a concern. One of the young men is gay, the others straight, and each talks about having the surgery- not as a group mind you, each on their own.
> ...


Of course you don't want to ignore your daughter's friends' experiences!

I do have to say that you might want to ask them again in a few years. Many teenagers report problems with sex. If you look at a site like Scarleteen.com, you'll see that many boys at that age don't quite know what to do yet and have many problems. I do have to wonder whether it really is their foreskin causing the problems, or if it's just normal teenager stuff, and they are just blaming their foreskins because of their cut-happy culture.

For what it's worth, I've known (in the carnal sense) intact males who have not had any problems. Also, my bro is intact and never had a problem, either. For a few more anecdotes.

Your daughter also has a brother who might have opinions about his penis. Why doesn't she talk to him? Is he happy to have his foreskin? I think your son will be able to talk her off this ledge when she's an adult.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *snip*
> 
> Boys deserve to be able to grow into men with a member which needs no special attention, nor has any issues with separation
> 
> ...


HAHAHA snip! I just read your post on another thread and it's good times. It's just so ridiculous that I'm not even angry.

This part is especially poetic: "An efficient, robust, and mighty phallus, not a sickly, special needs penis fraught with developmental problems." FYI you do know that intact penises are a bit bigger, right? So, like... they're mightier?

"Did you ever stop to think that the people who conceived the practice of circumcision were not cruel barbarians, but rather were possessed of a practical wisdom and insight which is all too uncommon these days ???" Doctors that popularized circumcision in the US were neither barbarians nor possessed with wisdom. They were a group of doctors who thought the practice would stop little boys from masturbating, therefore preserving their immortal souls. It didn't work. You can read about early proponents of circumcision like John Harvey Kellogg on Wikipedia.

Don't pay too much attention to forums on Men's Health websites. Healthy adult males (the majority) don't post there, because they don't have any problems.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *snip*
> 
> Boys deserve to be able to grow into men with a member which needs no special attention, nor has any issues with separation
> 
> ...


We do not advocate for routine infant circumcision here on MDC.

I have reported your post.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *mysticalmarg* 

You can imagine my shock and dismay to hear my newly adult daughter say she plans to circumcise! Aaaaah, Ugh! Why? I ask her? Her reply-
She has been in a position to know quite well 3 different male friends in her peer group who are intact and have been very UNHAPPY about not having been cut.
When they're old enough, they can get circ'd, if they still want to. If they had been cut, they couldn't grow back a foreskin (foreskin "restoration" isn't). So, if they're unhappy with what they've got, they can "fix" it.
Imagine my horror! Really....this isn't supposed to be part of the story! Now these are 3 different families, the boys unrelated in any way, except they are all Unitarian (which I like to believe has more than its share of enlightened people- hence the common-ness of no circumcision). The boys complaints come not from embarrassment or wanting to fit in or be like their dad's, rather, they report painful sex. I don't know details.
This many boys in a small group experiencing painful sex from an intact penis is very odd. I've never encountered it before. It does make me wonder what kind of medical advice their mothers received when they were babies, and if they're dealing with scarring or other issues from having their foreskins forced back for "cleaning" as infants. I will say that my 19 year old son, who has been sexually active for a while, is an ardent intactivist, and finds the whole idea of circ to be appalling. He's said that circ cuts off "the best part".


> But I find it a concern. One of the young men is gay, the others straight, and each talks about having the surgery- not as a group mind you, each on their own.
> My first thought was wondering about whether their glans had come out, loosening the foreskin appropriately. Is it workin like it's supposed to? My own son was an early bird with this -age 3 and has never been a problem. I worry about this because I have both a nephew and now an adopted son from Vietnam who are ages 15 and 13 and still haven't had the foreskin pull back naturally on its own.
> Soooo -that's my story! I don't find the original question in this thread as clearly absurd as some seem to find it. As a huge advocate for abandoning circumcision, I can't ignore my anecdotal "pool" of data. I'm hoping for some answers to give my daughter that can fill in the whole picture, still holding that intact is always best!


I truly don't see why some teenage boys planning to have the surgery when they're older would be a reason to circ an infant, though. I've known teenage girls who plan to get breast implants, too - doesn't mean I'm doing them on my daughters.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

@snip: My oldest intact son has grown into a man who has needed no special attention, nor did he ever have issues with separation. My youngest is far from a man (he's only 7), but he also had no issues, whatsoever.

Any man who is traumatized by having a foreskin can get it removed, if and when he makes the decision to do so.

I have also reported your post.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Hi Snip,

Welcome to MDC. It is obvisous, based on your username that you have an agenda. I do want to point out that you are posting in The Case AGAINST Circumcisions.

Quote:


> consent. TCAC hosts discussion of the reasons to avoid circumcision, the history of the procedure, medical issues and studies, complications, the needs and rights of the child, care of the intact child's penis and other educational topics. We are not interested in hosting discussion on merits of routine infant medical circumcision.


Your posts are against the forum guidlines. If you continue to post in this manner your membership will be removed. I do hope you will stick around and educate yourself in regards to circumcision.

Take care,

QotM


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## snip (Oct 6, 2012)

It's good to see that in a forum, designed for public discourse, that one can be threatened with censorship for posting an opinion which disagrees with the majority.

It would be different if I had gone out of my way to be offensive or profane merely for the sake of it, but someone asked a question relating to circumcision, and I put in my 2 cents worth. Just like all of you did.

My only crime is that my 2 cents differs from most everyone else's.

Strike me down if you must.

Obviously, my username was a intended as a pun. I do not necessarily have an agenda relating to routine circumcision.

I only wish that people would not be so quick to scorn and deride something that perhaps they do not fully understand. An interesting reply to my post was that circumcision was intended to discourage masturbation.

It is ironic that if the foreskin was originally too tight to pull back, then the procedure would actually facilitate the very act it was intended to curb.

I am certain not every proponent of circumcision was, or is now, driven by megalomaniacal, self-righteous, religious motivations.

We shouldn't abandon something entirely just because it is less than ideal, or doesn't always work the way it was intended.

Like religion. Or democracy.

Or maybe even freedom of speech.

As you are entitled to your opinion, so am I to mine.


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## mysticalmarg (May 23, 2005)

Many thanks for some good ideas from Michelle and Storm Bride. I think you may be onto something with scar tissue or sexual inexperience as possible issues. My son will no doubt be a good influence on my daughters future choices. As everyone suggests, we're all better off to allow nature Her own way unless clearly indicated otherwise. I don't mind questioning such as the original post in this thread because it allows us all to affirm our thoughts and understanding. "Snip" as you say is laughable....clearly absurd and not really worthy of discussion from those of us with conscience seeking a higher kind of existence for our selves and our families.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Snip-

You are welcome to your opinion, but when you joined MDC, you signed a user agreement. Part of this agreement is that you will read and post within the UA and the forum guidlines. Mothering represents certain ideals such a natural family living and attachment parenting. There are many forums out there that support routine infant circumcision. MDC does not and will not host that sort of discusion. We can not be all things to all people. Therefore, if you are uncomfortable with those guidlines, I'm sure there are other boards and forums where you would be able to have your say in support of circumcision.


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## Nightwish (Sep 9, 2008)

Snip, your posts show how little you know about the procedure, or what a healthy penis looks like, or how it works. Children masturbate since they are babies, and obviously a prepuce attached to the glans doesn't stop them, on the contrary. You don't need to pull it back in order to masturbate.

I find your posts rather sad. There are no valid arguments for circumcision. Even if you keep repeating to yourself that it makes for a "robust, mighty phallus", unfortunately it doesn't make it so. Not to offend anyone here, but the most famous lovers in history were Spanish, Italian, French where circumcision is mostly unheard of.

Please educate yourself. You sound like you are looking for some sort of validation, that circumcision MUST be right in some way. You won't find it here, but read the posts and links, they are enlightening.


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## birthprep4u (Jan 21, 2012)

I have two intact sons. My reason was because it was not my choice to begin with. When they are older and they decide they want it done; for cosmetic reasons.. fine.. let them.. But I don't have the right to do it to them .

Some babies are born with spadia and they need to use the foreskin to repair the opening that is off to the side instead of in the center.

The biggest problem I have about circing babies(among many other reasons) is that they are very sensitive to pain and their nervous system is immature and can't handle it. They go into a shock state because of it. Parent's don't understand just how painful it is to the baby.

Now I have a couple that I am teaching childbirth classes to and they want to circ there boy. I said that if you absolutely decide to do it then a good idea is waiting till the baby is 6 weeks and have it done under local anesthesia. Also, it will be better to wait since circ'ing at 2 days could interfere with breastfeeding success.

My sister's BIL had a newborn baby boy undergo emergency surgery at 2 days of age because of a mistake made during his circumcision. His head of his penis was nearly severed off.

Understand that there are risks to any proceedure and that if something goes wrong; it could be serious. Why mess with it?

I hope this helps you in your decision making process

Carolyn Gall AAHCC

post note: Just wanted to affirm my stand on circumcision. I am not "for it" but when I became a childbirth teacher I had to adhere to the rules which mandate: A teacher can't tell the parents not to circ . It is a personal choice. We can only give them information and let them decide. (It breaks my heart when they tell me they are having it done


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

With regard to the circ'd men telling you to get it done; you have to bear in mind that they likely don't know any different than not having a foreskin, and possibly the only discussion they had with their parents about circumcision was that it's "just what you do" with newborn boys, hence their advice to you.

Just some thoughts on circ and decreased sexual pleasure:

All of the evidence increasingly suggests that circumcision is not only unnecessary, it also desensitizes the glans, making sexual activity less pleasurable. Again, circ'd men don't know any different, so they wouldn't necessarily consider this factor when giving you their opinion. If you look at the glans of circ'd men, it is generally a uniform pale pink, sometimes almost whitish in color, the skin having had to toughen up and adjust to a life of near constant rubbing and chafing, without the foreskin protecting it's sensitivity. Conversely if you look at the glans of intact men, it is generally a rich purple/pink, sometimes some red too. This indicates a healthy, sensitive penis, and this equals more pleasure.


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

With regard to snip's posting; Far from the "superfluous" foreskin attracting infection, nature intended it to exist to provide a valuable and natural function in protecting the penis FROM infection. I'm not saying that snip is one of them, but I do think that there are circ'd men out there who have deep complex issues with the fact that their circumcision was out of their control, and are living through feelings of resentment as a consequence. Occasionally this might manifest itself in strong denial and ardent pro-circ thinking to alleviate and counteract the negative and painful feelings.

As an intact man, I can tell you that I am grateful to my parents for keeping me that way. But this was not even a decision they felt forced to make, because I was born in the UK where circ is not routine, and lo and behold (are you paying attention snip?), almost 100% of males go through life with no issues related to their natural state, the procedure of circumcision not even entering their minds.

If anything, I think snip's comments serve as reminder of how powerful pro-circ thinking has been in the US, and, how far we still have to go to educate and inform.


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

It always amazes me that for some, in the first instance of trouble with the foreskin, the very first thing that comes to mind is to cut it off, as if this was the only possible solution. We would do this to virtually no other body part, yet some are content to do this to their son's penis, without even considering alternatives that have tremendous prospects for curing the foreskin ailment. I find the talk of "statistics" in this thread quite humorous, especially "50%" of an individual's friends having difficulties with their intact natural state, requiring circumcision. If there is any truth to this figure at all. it would only speak of the total ignorance of these poor boys' physicians, dealing with foreskin issues inappropriately and (coming back to the first part of this post) ultimately counseling their patients that circ is the solution, when an educated doctor would provide a whole host of alternatives before even considering amputation of the foreskin.


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## Sol_y_Paz (Feb 6, 2009)

No circ here. The more I learn, the more confident I am in the decision not to circ.


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## SummumBonum (Jan 22, 2012)

I have three boys, currently 4, 8, and 10.

Although I was circumcised (I am of Jewish descent though not practicing), my three boys were not (my decision).

I am happy that I allowed them the option of choosing themselves.

We have had no medical problems.

I have explained to the older boys about my decision not to circumcise them. They are aware that they are intact while I am not.

To date, they have no problems with my decision, though I don't think they really fully appreciate it either.

Maybe when they get older (e.g. showering with peers and sexual encounters) will they start to really think about whether they are intact or not (like most of their American peers).

I have no problems should they decide to be circumcised as adults though I won't help them pay for the procedure.


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## thecrownemom (Nov 14, 2012)

I am sorry my post is not a direct response to the OP but I wanted to chime in anyway. I'm currently 34 weeks pregnant with a baby boy and my husband and I have decided to keep him intact. My husband is circumcised and honestly never gave it much thought. He never had any issues and was ignorant to the debate. When we found out we were having a boy I got a little anxious regarding this decision. I didn't want to push my beliefs on him bc I admit, especially in the beginning, my anti-circ beliefs were based more in a gut feeling way versus educated. I just could not understand why we were performing cosmetic surgery on BABIES. Also, I couldn't exactly tell me husband that my fling in London wasn't cut and he was more than ok- not to mention a college boyfriend who was born in Spain.







I remember just bringing it up and being pleasantly surprised that he did his own research and pretty quickly deemed it cruel and pointless. So grateful to be on the same page!

Where I live (Bergen County, NJ) everyone I know is cut. All the moms I know have their sons cut without giving it much thought. That part bothers me a little bit but certainly not enough to do something I feel down to my core is wrong. I just wanted to write that I am grateful I came across this website and this particular thread. It eases my mind. I wish I could be like the PP who said it wasn't a choice for her. For me it is. It felt like a big decision. I think I knew the entire time where I would end up but it is great to be able to hear from other Moms who have beliefs like mine. So thank you.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Little boys rarely know if others in their neighborhood are circumcised, so it doesn't really matter much what others in your location do. I keep reading about the showering issue. Most kids I know don't shower after gym class. There's not enough time, and they'd rather goof around, anyway.


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## thecrownemom (Nov 14, 2012)

When I first started thinking about this entire issue, the whole locker room issue kept coming up and it still baffles me. Makes no sense to me.


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## ancoda (Oct 17, 2005)

I have never regretted our decision to leave our 3 boys intact. We have never had any major issues, mostly uninformed dr trying to retract.

I also wanted to add that before I had kids I worked at a nursing home and around 70% of the men were intact. I do not know how many of the men that were circed had it done at birth or if any had to have it done later, but 70% of the men I helped take care of seemed to have no real problems with thier foreskin.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

A couple of thoughts about this thread:

Why is it that our medical system amputates no other body part for therapeutic purposes? It is perverse that male genitalia are mutilated for some fairey tale problem that might occur in the future, and that could be treated by far less invasive means than amputation.

Doctors who perform routine infant circumcision are violating the oath that they took when they became doctors "to do no harm".

Whose foreskin is it? Why can some people not grasp the concept that it is totaly unethical to forcefully remove a healthy, normal and functional part of someone elses body? Does it not occur to them that maybe the child in question would like to have kept his foreskin?

The most sensitive part of a penis is not the glans - it is the foreskin. Removing it causes the loss of up to 85% of the nerves. No wonder the greatest per capita use of drugs such as Viagra is in the U.S.A. and Israel. See www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/Sorrells_2007/

Why would anyone want to disadvantage their child's lifelong sexual experience?

I know that I am preaching to the choir here, except for "snip"!!


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

I'll take a stab at all these...

Quote:
Originally Posted by *hakunangovi* 

A couple of thoughts about this thread:

Why is it that our medical system amputates no other body part for therapeutic purposes?

Because all other body parts are valued.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *hakunangovi* 

Doctors who perform routine infant circumcision are violating the oath that they took when they became doctors "to do no harm".

But if they believe, based on false information & bias from being circumcised themselves, they are in fact doing something beneficial. So, they are not doing harm because they believe they are helping the infant to avoid problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hakunangovi* 
Whose foreskin is it? Why can some people not grasp the concept that it is totaly unethical to forcefully remove a healthy, normal and functional part of someone elses body? Does it not occur to them that maybe the child in question would like to have kept his foreskin?

I believe the basis for this is something called "adultism." Adultism means that the adult knows better than the child w/ regards to everything, because they are an adult, but especially regarding parts of the body that are seen as expendable. (Here's the wikipedia entry for it - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultism) The thought that the child may have wanted their foreskin someday never even crosses their minds, especially if they are a circ'd father. How many times have we heard, "I've a great sex life, don't criticize my sexual prowess!"? That, combined w/ most people do not see children as actual people - they see them as something else to have, another "thing" to add to their lives, someone to have control over; all these things may not actually be conscious (sp?) thoughts either. Society in general does not value children, no matter how much they preach to the contrary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hakunangovi* 

The most sensitive part of a penis is not the glans - it is the foreskin. Removing it causes the loss of up to 85% of the nerves. No wonder the greatest per capita use of drugs such as Viagra is in the U.S.A. and Israel. See www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/Sorrells_2007/

Why would anyone want to disadvantage their child's lifelong sexual experience?

I've read on here recently that at least one father has said something along the lines of, "I didn't get to keep mine to have normal sex so neither will my child." Sick. Sick. Sick. Connecting the dots from the most frequent users of viagra to loss of the foreskin requires thinking, something which a great many people seek actively to avoid.

Just my thoughts ;-).

Sus


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

hakuna, I just got an update for this thread in my email and it struck me - what an odd title for a post. Then, I followed the link and found you were expressing the same sentiment, essentially.

I would regret NOT circumcising my son as much as I would regret NOT having his toenails removed. It's a mystifying sentiment to me. No matter what happened to him, even if he got cancer of the foreskin, I wouldn't regret letting him keep a body part he was born with.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Beru, I wholeheartedly agree. As I'm sure you figured out, I was not replying to the title of the thread as much as the latter posts in it.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

OP, any updates? Did you find out if you're having a boy, or are you team green? Always good to hear of another babe being left intact


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## Shizzam (Nov 21, 2012)

In my Pediatric Nurse Practitioner's book (published in 2011) it states that circumcision is not medically necessary and, based on evidence from research, the benefits of getting circumcised do not out weigh the risks.


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## Islay (Apr 29, 2006)

I can't possibly read through this very long thread. But to its title I have a personal answer.

Not circumcising my son was an instant and never questionable action. I'm English and we keep our boys intact without a moment's thought of circumcision. He is healthily and happily as nature made him. My grandsons are the same.

Throughout my boyhood I was intact. In adulthood I was circumcised 10 years ago.

Explanation*:* at 6 years old my foreskin was forcibly retracted in a moment of anger by a carer in a children's home. The injury scarred and prevented my foreskin from easy retraction as I grew older. As an adult it retracted with difficulty during masturbation - and failure in sexual intercourse. Finally, I could not manually retract my foreskin at all. A terrifying occasion of paraphimosis after sex led to a dorsal slit in my foreskin to relieve the consequent oedema - and circumcision a day or two later.

So do I regret NOT being circumcised? I don't really need to answer that. Circumcision saved me from the death (necrosis) of a strangulated penis. My consequent loss of sensitivity as the years go by is a price I have to pay. Selfishly, I''m glad I was circumcised to rid myself of the memory of abuse and its outcome.

This bears no comparison to the fate of pre-pubescent boys circumcised at a parent's whim with no thought to their future life with healthy foreskins.

Christopher


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## beckwith (Aug 25, 2010)

My son is uncircumcised in an area of the country where the majority of the boys are circumcised. He is in elementary school, and the boys see each other when they urinate (urinals). He's asked why he's different, and we've had to explain our reasoning and so on. Not to say I regret not circumcising him (or his younger brother). It's just that the "locker room" effect can and does happen.


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