# A spanking mom verbally attacked me yesterday. REALLY long.



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in TAO...

Anyway, we were out with the kids yesterday, at a fun and games restaurant. It's a big place, kids get overwhelmed, it was the day after Christmas, KWIM?

Anyway, we were in the dining area, a HUGE room full of families when a family with two kids about the ages of mine sat behind us. Their toddler was a baby-toddler, maybe 18-20 months old and a 6-8 year old son. The toddler was having a melt-down, not surprising in a place with SO much going on.

The dad says loudly, "If you don't stop crying I'm going to spank you."

Dh and I exchange glances and my own son (6.5) starts looking nervous. He is super sensitive to other kid's feelings and gets upset if he sees a spanking.

The baby's dad then proceeds to whack the crap out of him. He was holding him in his arms, the baby laying sideways and he hit him 3 or 4 times in front of my kids. We're talking a 6'4" 200 pound grown man beating a 20 pound toddler. Right in front of my kids.

I turned to my kids and said, "Spanking is wrong, mommies and daddies should not hit their kids." Then I said something to dh about how I hate seeing that in public.

I didn't yell it or make a scene or anything. I just spoke to my family at my table.

The mom went nuts. She started screaming at me and calling me an idiot. She screamed that she would say more but she is a good Christian woman but that I am total idiot. She screamed that kids need "discipline."

I told her I agreed but that I feel spanking is abuse. She called me an idiot again. She was being SO loud, it was really embarassing. Then someone stood up and said she agreed! She said that if more kids got spanked our country wouldn't be like it is. So, basically I was in public with a stranger going crazy on me in a room full of people who agree with her... in front of my own kids.

She must have said "Kids need disciplne" 30 times. Meanwhile her toddler was still melting down and her older kid was jumping up and down in the booth.

I don't even remember half of what I said but I just kept saying that you can discipline without hurting them. I wished I had the presence of mind to quote research or anything but she just WOULD NOT let it go.

So, eventually they moved tables (she was still yelling about me) because she didn't want to sit by the idiot woman who accused them of being abusive.

She followed us around for the rest of the time we were there and kept talking aboutit. When we went into the game area she stayed a few paces behind us and told anyone who would listen what happened. She kept pointing at me and ranting. People would look at me and shake their heads like I was a monster. My kids didn't have a clue it was going on but I felt totally harassed.

I spent the rest of day alternating between feeling guilty and feeling like I stood up for what I believe. I feel like if my kids see something I feel is WRONG I should tell them why I feel it's wrong, especially WRT to violence.

I tried to put myself in her place... envisioned what I would do if someone saw me nursing my toddler and called it abuse. I realized I would definitely NOT start screaming and making a scene. I certainly would not follow a stranger around and harass them. If you believe what you are doing is good and right do you feel the need to go nutty when someone confronts you?

She just COULD not let it go and I feel bad, like I judged her or something. I mean, I did judge her, I think spanking is abuse and I would have felt bad had I let my 2 and 6 year old see a dad beat his toddler and not said anything. But still... I feel so weird about the whole thing.

I just keep hoping that even though it turned SO ugly maybe she went home and today she has thought for even a split second about the people out there who get by without violence. Dh says no, that she just hates me and will still beat her babies.









Whew, that was long.


----------



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

s for you.








for her kids.

~Tracy


----------



## juju's mom (Mar 30, 2005)

OMG!







: Your "nightmare" of a day made me cry. I am so upset for you and the poor children. Yours for having to see the abuse and theirs for being abused. What is wrong with kids today, is that unfortunately they have parents like those people! I am so sorry you were harrassed after such a horrific episode.


----------



## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Holy Crap! I am so sorry you had to experience that!

I'm at a loss for words... But I agree with your DH - she will continue ranting about you and beating the kids.

But maybe her kids got to hear just one voice that spoke to their inner knowing and confirmed that what mom and dad do is hurting them. Maybe it will take 15 years before your willingness to speak has it's full impact.

It still sucks being harrassed and ridiculed, and I'm just so sorry you were singled out like that!


----------



## Lynski (Oct 17, 2004)

You had every right to say what you did. As a parent you have a responsibility to comfort your children and raise them how you see fit. I am sure we all would have done the same thing.

You didn't confront this woman. You didn't stand up and publicly criticize her or make a scene, SHE DID. Please don't feel bad.

I feel terrible for those kids, and I really think that mom _knew_ that hitting her kids is wrong. She reacted like someone who felt guilty. If she truly felt like what she was doing was the best thing, she probably would have just rolled her eyes and ignored you.


----------



## CaliMommie (Feb 11, 2004)

That's terrible. If that happened to me I would have gone to the management of the establishment & told them that I was being followed & harrassed by another patron, could they please handle the situation. Maybe they would have told her to stop or she would have to leave.

I think that you did the right thing by telling your kids that spanking is wrong, etc. Did you say it just so they could hear you or loudly so that the other woman & her husband would "accidently" overhear you too? Just wondering why she would have such a over-the-top response~ not that it makes her reaction right, but maybe she felt attacked? Or maybe she hates it when her husband spanks the kids, but feels powerless to stop him? Regardless, the way she treated you was wrong & I'm sorry you had to deal with that.


----------



## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lynski*
I really think that mom _knew_ that hitting her kids is wrong. She reacted like someone who felt guilty.

I think so, too.


----------



## MountainLaurel (Dec 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
But maybe her kids got to hear just one voice that spoke to their inner knowing and confirmed that what mom and dad do is hurting them. Maybe it will take 15 years before your willingness to speak has it's full impact.

I second that. Alice ****** has some great insights into the role that having one adult who tells an abused child that what is happening to him or her is wrong can have. I've heard similar anecdotes from people who talk about how important it was when that one person spoke out: They realized for the first time that they weren't bad, or lazy, or stupid, or deserving to get hit.


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Wow, I'm sorry. I thought we were living in the 21st century, I can't believe how many people think that hitting their kids is ok. I stopped going to those chucky cheese typed of places because I've seen way to many things like that happening. Unfortunately it's all legal, so calling the police won't do any good either.


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Thank you, I have been feeling like crap.

I said it like I would normally speak. I didn't speak up but nor did I whisper. I feel like whispering would have made it seem like I was in the wrong and needed to whisper my opinion, KWIM?

Thank you all for reading and responding.

Blerg.


----------



## meowmix (Jul 14, 2005)

Oh my gosh, I couldn't read and not respond. How horrible! How horrible for you and your family to witness that and how horrible for that crazy woman to rant and harrass you like that. I mean, what would have happened if your son had piped up and told YOU (or her) that spanking was wrong? You know how children can be so honest sometimes. She probably would have been a crazy woman on him, too! I feel bad for you and even worse for her children. For her to go off like that seems like she is totally insecure. To go off on a stranger like she did makes me wonder how else she treats her poor children besides spanking.


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
Wow, I'm sorry. I thought we were living in the 21st century, I can't believe how many people think that hitting their kids is ok. I stopped going to those chucky cheese typed of places because I've seen way to many things like that happening. Unfortunately it's all legal, so calling the police won't do any good either.


Exactly! I left feeling SO depressed that such a cross-sampling of parents of all types seemed to feel spanking is OK. I guess I was kidding myself believing that the majority of parents don't spank on a regular basis.


----------



## Spock (May 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
Exactly! I left feeling SO depressed that such a cross-sampling of parents of all types seemed to feel spanking is OK. I guess I was kidding myself believing that the majority fo parents don't spank on a regular basis.









I wonder, though, if the other parents maybe just felt intimdated by her since she was so aggressive. A lot of them might not agree with spanking but they were too afraid of feeling her wrath to say anything.

((HUGS)) to you. What an awful experience.


----------



## goodcents (Dec 19, 2002)

Okay - would it be totally un-GD of me to say you should have socked her one?










Sorry. I just couldn't help thinking that a good shiner in the eye might have made that nilly see your point.

What an ignorant jerk. I am sorry her kids have to deal with her every day. How frightening.

Lastly - maybe our country is the way it is BECAUSE of spanking.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

I have been your child in more than one scene like that. My mother is only 5'1" but if she sees a child getting hurt, EVERYONE will know it, and she doesn't care if the others agree with hitting, she'll go off on them, too.
I remember feeling scared that my mom might forget and hit someone.







I remember being in complete awe of this tiny powerful woman I called Mom who was not afraid to stand up for all children, not just her own.

Many of the children she stood up for, are now parents themselves and won't hit their child(ren). Three of them had homebirths and I attended.

I truly believe it is possible to end the cycle of hurt and violence, and, yes, sometimes you just have to leave and get your family to safety.


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

I believe you did the right thing.

You know.....even Christians who do believe in spanking would never threaten and spank in a public place. That is demaning and abusive.







So that excuse, holds NO water.

I too think she feels guilty with her choice to spank. She seemed defensive.

I believe that everything happens for a reason. I believe you were in the right place at the right time for a reason. You may have saved these children from a life of beatings.....you never know









Also....as horrible as what happend to you was....I think it was good that your children saw it.

They saw that their mama has courage to stand up for others who have no voice.... they saw that you can present debate in a gentle loving matter.... they saw that two wrongs don't make a right, hense why you stayed calm and loving......they saw that even when people are against you, you do not have to run and hide. You carried on with your day as planned......they saw how loving and great their mama is!!!


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
Exactly! I left feeling SO depressed that such a cross-sampling of parents of all types seemed to feel spanking is OK. I guess I was kidding myself believing that the majority fo parents don't spank on a regular basis.









Just because many of the parents at this establishment felt "spanking is OK" doesn't mean that all of them spank on a regular basis. A parent might spank once or twice in their entire parenting career but still beleive that spanking is appropriate in some situations. Some of her "defenders" might not have been aware of the specifics of why her child had just been spanked. Or, they were afraid of her- it's easier to nod your head and go on your merry way than risk being her next target.

Spanking a baby because he wouldn't stop crying? That's just really sad.

I don't think I would have had the guts to say "spanking is abusive" to her face. I probably would have said "We discipline our children in other ways" and left it at that.


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbarthauer*
I wonder, though, if the other parents maybe just felt intimdated by her since she was so aggressive. A lot of them might not agree with spanking but they were too afraid of feeling her wrath to say anything.


----------



## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Quote:

I believe you did the right thing.

You know.....even Christians who do believe in spanking would never threaten and spank in a public place. That is demaning and abusive. So that excuse, holds NO water.

I too think she feels guilty with her choice to spank. She seemed defensive.

I believe that everything happens for a reason. I believe you were in the right place at the right time for a reason. You may have saved these children from a life of beatings.....you never know

Also....as horrible as what happend to you was....I think it was good that your children saw it.

They saw that their mama has courage to stand up for others who have no voice.... they saw that you can present debate in a gentle loving matter.... they saw that two wrongs don't make a right, hense why you stayed calm and loving......they saw that even when people are against you, you do not have to run and hide. You carried on with your day as planned......they saw how loving and great their mama is!!!
Well said, Angelbee.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

I spent the rest of day alternating between feeling guilty and feeling like I stood up for what I believe.
Why would you feel guilty? She made a scene and treated you poorly, but standing up for what is right would not be admirable if there was no risk to it, kwim? You took a risk in order to make a public stand, and you took the brunt of a lot of anger as a result. But *many* admirable people have affected change by having the courage to do what you did regarding many situations. Should you feel guilty if you stand up against blatant racisim? Or wife beating?

Quote:

I feel like if my kids see something I feel is WRONG I should tell them why I feel it's wrong, especially WRT to violence.
Exactly. And not just your kids either. But all the people in the resteraunt too. And more importantly, *their kids* need to hear it spelled out too. That baby who was hit needed to hear it. They need to hear that what happens to them is undeserved. And maybe they need to hear it 20 thousand times before it makes a real difference -- but what you said was a start. Well done!


----------



## Oceanone (Oct 24, 2002)

That is just so appalling of her! Those poor babies. I agree with all those who said you did the right thing, especially letting those kids know that NOT everyone thinks the way they are being treated is OK. Obviously you really hit a nerve with that mother. How terrible that your kids had to witness that.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

You did the right thing by speaking to your kids about it. I have been in that position before - not with spanking, but with hearing a parent be mean enough to their child that ds looked at me scared and confused, and I had to explain to him that what the adult was doing was wrong. I have never had the adult freak out to the extent that the crazy lady in the OP did, but I have gotten some glares.

I about cried thinking about how important it was for that young child to hear someone say that even if they are too young to process what it really means.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)




----------



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

OMG! I've NEVER seen a child spanked. I don't know what I would do but I suspect that I wouldn't be very polite about it! That is REPULSIVE!!!!!!! I can't imagine how horrible that was for the child, or how horrible it was for everyone who had to witness it. How humiliating and WRONG!!!


----------



## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

i think you did the right thing. i dont know where you are and im not even sure what the law in NH is (where i am) but in alot of places, it is absue. ive never witnessed spanking in public, but i WOULD accuse someone of child abuse if i witnessed it.
i agree w/ what others have said though..i would have contacted the establishment's management and had them stop her from harassing me. she is not only a child abuser, but a stalker! jeez!
you did the right thing...ppl need to stand up to bullies..and thats what i see ppl who hit kids...what else do we call picking on someone who cant fight back?
your children will be proud of you...and maybe the little boy will think next time he gets a spanking that its wrong...maybe he will tell someone at school, etc. maybe something good will come out of it for the family (but you will never know).
you can only hope...but in the end you can only do what is right for you family, which you did.
rach


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Wow, I need to come here more often! Thank guys.









I think I feel guilty because I was being judgemental and one of my new year's resolutions is to stop judging other mothers.







I was being judgemental and the person I was judging heard me and got upset. I feel like I was caught gossiping or something.

I would like to think she went so crazy on me because she deep down knows it's wrong. And, ITA, AngelBee, I feel like spanking in private is bad enough but spanking in public is humiliating and wrong for everyone around.


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

X-posted with you, Rachel.

I'm in Texas where they actually passed a resolution last year clarifying that spanking IS legal.


----------



## Quinn'sMommy (Jan 2, 2005)

Hold your head high mamma. You did right by your children and her's.


----------



## Beeblebrox (Apr 6, 2005)

"Children need discipline!"

Gee, I notice that your toddler is having a meltdown. The spanking didn't suddenly turn it off eh?

You did the right thing. You weren't telling her off. You were teaching your child your values in a real world situation. I think it was totally appropriate. Good for you for standing up for what you believe in and passing that on to your children.


----------



## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Hi there Mamma,

I don't have children yet, and, I'm not sure how much of the "unconditional parenting" school I will subscribe to when we do, but, I had to post.

You did the RIGHT thing. I would have done the SAME thing. I can't believe that man thought is was okay for him to hit his little child for crying in a crazy room, how cruel... that mother was feeling guilty for what happened, that's why she followed you around like a lunatic trying to get others to reaffirm her nasty parenting choices, it's like looking for an alibi after a crime.

I don't know where this discipline=beating school of thought comes from, it does so much harm.

I do believe that children need firm parents, and, I don't think that being spanked twice in one's life by reasonable, loving parents equals abuse, but, I really can't fathom why someone would even bother having children if they treat them like those parents you saw are treating their poor babies.

Sorry for rambling, but, you did the right thing, I would have said the same thing to my children and most likely would have left the building.

Take care.


----------



## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Crap! Well I grew up in TX too, where my cousins and I faced corporal punishment _in school!_

I don't know if that's still done there, but you're up against a very deeply held belief that children are there for taking out frustration on.

I know - I was one...

Such a bad situation.

About the judgements... You have every right to judge others' behavior as being harmful to you children to witness. Speaking up to them about it is far from gossiping. I hope you can let that worry go soon. This is a perfect example of why we humans have such a thing as _judgement_ or discernment.


----------



## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

"I faced corporal punishment in school!"

Wow.... I'm really sorry that you had to deal with that. I've been reading some of those antispanking websites, and I can't understand why that is allowed to go on.


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I got paddled in school when I lived in AL but to be honest getting it at school was much better than getting at home.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Sheena,

I would ask myself "Was I true to myself? Was I setting an example that I would want my children to witness and model? Was I initiating harm against anyone? Was I acting to protect another from harm?" Then what you did was right in *your* heart.

I would have done the same thing.

Only, I would and have spoken directly to the individual initially *BECAUSE* I choose to model the power of public dissent and non-violence to our son. I would have just said "Stop! You are hurting that child! Stop! Hitting children teaches them to hit. Stop! Stop hurting that child!" And if it had escalated to the event that you experienced, I would call 911 and report that a huge man is repeatedly hitting a child and the child is crying and cringing and there is a hysterical woman with him. Let them discuss their "discipline" with the police and see if they are as apt to hit their children in public again.

Now, if I merely saw a family in distress, I would and have intervened to diffuse the situation by empathizing with them. But, I know that if I saw a child being struck, I would be so angry that I would speak up *for the child*. Because I was that child and there is nothing that would keep me from voicing what is in that child's heart "STOP! STOP! STOP!". I have no fear of my child seeing me intervening on behalf of a child, ever. I do not fear the 6' 2" man. Not any longer.

I have taken an oath, literally, on the www.NoSpank.net site to intervene if I ever see a child hit by an adult. Hitting a child is assault. An environment without recourse where a child is repeatedly subjected to being hit, is abuse. Period.

Pat

Btw, the NoSpank site has many practical suggestions on how to verbally intervene when a child is hit, which may help others to become comfortable doing so. I believe to say nothing is condoning the public display of violence against children. And yes, Texas still has corporal punishment in schools, as do 21 others states in the US. I am actively working to abolish corporal punishment in schools locally, statewide and nationally.









Here is a link to find out if your state still has the archaic and barbaric practice of corporal punishment in schools. And what you can do to help! http://www.stophitting.com/disatschool/


----------



## KatSG (Aug 11, 2003)

I just wanted to tell you that I believe you did the right thing and I'm glad to have your experience as a model for my dd. We've never been in a situation like that but now I know what to do if we are.

And what you said about judging...I know what you mean. There were so many times I judged other parents before I had kids and I just laugh and laugh now because I see what it's like and I do so many of the things I said I'd never do. It isn't fair to judge someone when you don't understand their situation. But you do know what it's like to have an 18 mo old meltdown in a public place and you know that a spanking will never solve that problem. We have to make judgements, and stand by them, if we are all going to decide what we want for ourselves as a society.

The only way I can see offering that woman any compassion is knowing that she is mentally ill (everything she did was irrational and anti-social) and has absolutely no coping skills. But that doesn't excuse their choice to beat their baby. It's still wrong and you have a right to judge that behavior as such. All we can hope is that the whole family gets help someday soon.


----------



## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Sheena,

You did absolutely everything right, in my opinion. I admire you. Your kids have a great mom.


----------



## freestyler (Jan 28, 2005)

It just makes my stomach turn to think of people hitting their children, it just makes me so ill. And a toddler? ???? God, I can only imagine what must go on INSIDE their home, if they are so off the deep end that they can do that horror in a public place. I second the PP who said maybe our country is the way it is because of spanking. I totally believe that to be the case. My parents always hit us, and you know what? I grew up hating them. They just suck. They never even paused one second to consider whether it was right or wrong, never cared if they hurt us mentally or physically, etc. And my mom, with whom I'm no longer on speaking terms, always criticized me for NOT hitting my children when they were acting out. Can you imagine? Spanking hurts. I'm glad you spoke up, I'm so glad, I'm sick that you all had to experience that (especially the children involved!!), and I pray for a day when violence no longer occurs.


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

I know, I almost cried thinking about what that baby's life must be like... at night if he wakes up scared and alone, or if he is crabby all day.









I honestly cannot wrap my mind around people thinking it is OK (and HOW can it be LEGAL???) to physically hit a child. That actually seems CRAZY to me. I mean, people think that hurting them is a good form of discipline.

I understand that parents lose their patience and sometimes things get out of hand. Although I totally believe that it is wrong to strike in anger I even more so can't believe people can plan out to hit their kids. Like First-degree spanking.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

Like First-degree spanking.


----------



## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Sheena, I am so glad you said something. Threatening to hit the child was horrible, and actually doing it . . .unconscionable.

Had the man done the same thing to his wife, he would have been arrested, or would have been thrown out at the very least. Yet somehow it's OK to hit a 20 lb child.










scubamama, thank you for those links.


----------



## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lynski*
As a parent you have a responsibility to comfort your children and raise them how you see fit. I am sure we all would have done the same thing.

You didn't confront this woman. You didn't stand up and publicly criticize her or make a scene, SHE DID. Please don't feel bad.

She reacted like someone who felt guilty. If she truly felt like what she was doing was the best thing, she probably would have just rolled her eyes and ignored you.


I could not have said it better!

You did not enterupt either of these parents.
You were comforting your child.
Who are either of the 'abusive' (imo) parents to jump into your table, your family, your day?
I mean come on now. How old do you have to be to follow another family step by step continuing to make a HUGE deal out of what that family said to themselves?!?! Give me a break. How immature can a mother be? I feel for them little babies. They will grow up as they are taught!
I agree with you and how you handled it.
I am sorry that this has happened to you and your family! I am sorry that your children were subject to such behavior by (using the word lightly) _adults._


----------



## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

OT here but . . .

OMG . . .that link you posted, Pat . . .I feel sick. I just read about someone being charged in the very suburb I JUST MOVED TO. The man was one of the people involved in taping children being beaten for sexual pleasure of adults.

Horrible.


----------



## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

So if the toddler had just been spanked, I am guessing she was crying and probably not quietly.

That means that you were talking loud enough to be heard over the commotion. In other words, you were antagonizing them and it worked.

Too me, an adult antagonizing strangers in public for the benefit of "proving" themself to be the better person or parent (whichever the case may be) is no better than spanking a toddler. So, I think neither of you were right. Sorry.

Maggie


----------



## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

i would write a letter to the local paper and send a copy to the manager of the establishment. i would describe what happened, add in some quotes from well known people about how bad spanking is, like dr. spock, dr. coop, and some christian GD-ers who use examples from jesus' sermons to support not spanking.

spanking a baby for crying is abuse, and i would say that straight out in your letter.

you might conclude that you had hoped that by 2005 people might understand that what the world needs is more love and less violence.

sorry you had to go through that, if it was me, the police might have had to have been called







:


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I believe the OP explicitly stated she was not yelling or making a scene.

The OP deserves our support rather than criticism, since this forum's aim is helping parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods. Please start another thread if you'd like to discuss the merits of keeping quiet vs. speaking up when parents spank.

Thanks!


----------



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

m9m9m9, The husband was the one abusing the child, not the mother. It was the mother who heard Sheena and went off on her. Who knows how closely the mother was to the commotion. The OP explicitly stated that she was talking to her children about it. I think it's an awesome thing that she said something out loud -- even loud enough for the parents to hear. Would you prefer if everyone just shut up and sat back while children are being hit and humiliated in public (or elsewhere)? I certainly do not agree that saying "Hitting children is abusive and wrong" in the presence of spankers is a good thing and absolutely not on the same level as hitting children.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius*
OT here but . . .

OMG . . .that link you posted, Pat . . .I feel sick. I just read about someone being charged in the very suburb I JUST MOVED TO. The man was one of the people involved in taping children being beaten for sexual pleasure of adults.

Horrible.

I am sorry that you found the site upsetting. I forget that Jordan Riak, the web master and activist does have some graphic and disturbing information on the site. He also has some very useful and practical information. He is passionately working to eliminate child abuse. He eliminated canning in Australia and corporal punishment from the largest school district in TX, as I recall. He isn't benign in his presentation, his site is very emotionally charged. Thanks for the reminder, I should have mentioned that some of the link is tragic.

Pat


----------



## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

I am going to be a little judgemental here but... I live in an inner city neighborhood that crawls with the type of mom you encountered. I think they're nuts







I know people around here live on the edge. Still I find that more reason to draw out in their children a higher level of moral judgement. And the last way to do that, is to try to beat it into them. THEY NEVER GET PAST FEAR OF PUNISHMENT AS A MOTIVATING FACTOR FOR BEHAVOIR! I see it time and time again. As long as no one sees them and they can get away with it, it's OK. I think the way those parents treat their children is one of the things tht leads to adults who have no ability to reason. It's only brute force that matter to them. Unless more people come to their senses on how child rearing, this country will countinue to have huge problems with schools, violence and a prison system made to make people rich. I think your story is truely sad, so very sad. You did the right thing.


----------



## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

amy you did the right thing... if you had said nothing what are you telling your kids by that?







mama, i would have done the same thing.


----------



## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

And just one more thing! How can it be that if that man had hit you like he hit his BABY, he would have been arrested for assault and yet since it was his BABY suddenly it's OK. What utter nonsense.


----------



## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9*
That means that you were talking loud enough to be heard over the commotion. In other words, you were antagonizing them and it worked.

Too me, an adult antagonizing strangers in public for the benefit of "proving" themself to be the better person or parent (whichever the case may be) is no better than spanking a toddler. So, I think neither of you were right. Sorry.

Maggie

I agree with you.

OP-it was OKAY for you to explain to your kids "*"Spanking is wrong, mommies and daddies should not hit their kids."* BUT if you said it loud enough...for the benefit of the Spanking Parents...then what type of reaction were you expecting?

Anytime you decide to take a strong stance against a heated topic as spanking...then you had better be prepared to embrace whatever comes your way and in Public no less.

Yes, I believe the mother was wrong to scream at you and call you an idiot, but you attacked her Parenting skills (no matter how wrong they were) and she reacted on the defensive side.

You touched a Hot Button at the wrong time in the wrong place.

To avoid this type of scenario again (and you absolutely should expect this again...because people are going to spank their kids whether we like it or not), then you and your family should quietly leave and reiterate to them that yes some parents spank.


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Or maybe the attacker was specifically trying to listen to what the OP was saying to her kids after maybe seeing the look of horror on her (OP) face?


----------



## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

Hitting is wrong, but hitting a baby is just sick. You have every right to speak to your child about a wrong that you have witnessed. It amazes me that parents would think hitting a child is an effective way to stop the crying. That is so completely ridiculous and from your post, sounds like the crying got worse. How about holding and comforting the child? How about a little take out if baby is too tired/stressed/upset to deal with a restaurant? It's sad to see parents that are so disconnected from the needs of their children! It breaks my heart to think of what life is like for that poor baby. The mother's defensive reaction sounds like deep down, she knows her husband was wrong. Who knows? Maybe she is abused too, and afraid to speak against him.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I am suprised at the posters (a few, not all) saying that the OP should have been quieter about it, or left the situation or kept to herself etc...

Would you expect someone to react that way if it were a man hitting a grown woman in public? Would you just walk by and not say a word if a white person was shouting racial slurs and assaulting a person of color...or if you saw a person beating their dog?

I think it is a very, very sad commentary that most people would intervene in the above situations -- at least alert someone else to intervene, and yet when it is a parent performing an act of violence on their child, it is somehow something to be left in the closet...just quietly move on by, avert your eyes, leave if you have to, but no way "challenge" someone's parenting.

I would challenge someone's parenting any day of the week if their "parenting" consisted of violence towards their child. Remember, there was a time where it was legal to deny a person of color a drink of freaking water if it was from a "white" fountain, so the whole "no matter how wrong it is, it is still legal so we shouldn't do anything" arguement doesn't fly with me.

I am sure glad people like Rosa Parks didn't feel that way....

I will speak up anytime I see an act of violence...whether it is someone hitting a dog, or a person, or berating someone, or shaming someone....

To me, if it is being done in my earshot and within my sight...it is being done publically and it becomes my business when my space is infringed on with violence -- ESPECIALLY if my child's innocence is infringed on by having to witness someone being violent towards someone.

To the OP, I think you did the right thing... I wouldn't have been so calm about it truthfully.


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9*
So if the toddler had just been spanked, I am guessing she was crying and probably not quietly.

That means that you were talking loud enough to be heard over the commotion. In other words, you were antagonizing them and it worked.

Too me, an adult antagonizing strangers in public for the benefit of "proving" themself to be the better person or parent (whichever the case may be) is no better than spanking a toddler. So, I think neither of you were right. Sorry.

Maggie

Um, did you read my post? I know it was long but I said that the dad was off spanking the baby while the mom was sitting directly behind me. And, someone else mentioned that maybe she was listening and I kind of had the feeling that she was being overly aware of the surroundings. I mean, she was RIGHT behind me and could have definitely heard my conversation but if she was particularly listening she would have for sure heard us.

And, someone else made a great point: What if that man had stood up and smacked his wife around? What if he hit his wife and I just sat there and let my kids see it? Or, for that matter, what if everyone just watched in silence. To me hitting your child is no different than hitting your wife.


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

X-posted with Captain Crunchy who said it MUCH better than I did.


----------



## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I am suprised at the posters (a few, not all) saying that the OP should have been quieter about it, or left the situation or kept to herself etc...

I was a voice of dissent and here's what I said: "*OP-it was OKAY for you to explain to your kids ""Spanking is wrong, mommies and daddies should not hit their kids." BUT if you said it loud enough...for the benefit of the Spanking Parents...then what type of reaction were you expecting?* "

The OP said she felt harassed...well, when you Publicly take a stance against a heated topic as Spanking and you don't know WHO you are dealing with...then you embrace ALL types of reactions.

I still don't understand why the OP was surprised at such a vehement response from the Spanking Mom.


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I guess I don't see quitely talking to your own children/calming them down from seeing abuse as taking a public stance







: If the mother was eavesdropping (which I think she was) then how is that the OP's fault?


----------



## phaeon (Nov 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I am suprised at the posters (a few, not all) saying that the OP should have been quieter about it, or left the situation or kept to herself etc...

*putting on my Tyvek flame-proof suit*








While I TOTALLY agree that spanking is wrong on many levels, I also see a touch of hypocrisy here with regards to parents' rights. Many MDC mamas complain about being criticized for NIP, for cosleeping, for babywearing, for choosing homebirth, etc. These are very non-mainstream ideas, and yet we (MDCers) constantly complain about being harassed with respect to these choices. And how do you feel when your parenting decisions are attacked? Angry! Bitter! Outraged!! You come to MDC and post a







rant and all the other like-minded mamas support you in your tirade!







Hmmm..

Spanking is, like it or not, a mainstream parenting technique, and unfortunately, many parents resort to it. Those parents believe as fervently as you do not that spanking is an important part of discipline. While I find it revolting and stomach-churning, I have to swallow the bile and remember that *my* parenting choices are just as repulsive to some people. What if you were NIP, and another parent pulled their child aside and said, "oh, honey, some people are just so obscene to do things like that"? Obviously that parent is







, but how would you feel? Especially if your nursling was old enough to understand the comment?? I'm not trying to defend the spanker. I think the guy was a jerk and could have used a million other approaches to help his child with the situation. (I also think there is a difference between spanking a diapered butt and backhanding your wife. And I'm assuming he was "spanking" and not "beating" the child--that's a different bag of chips.) But, like it or not, he has a legal right to raise his kid the way he thinks is best. So do you. Would you like someone coming in and telling you that you could no longer cosleep, because it was dangerous? (That day might yet come, if the crib manufacturers have their way!!) What if someone tried to arrest you or take away your baby after your homebirth, because it was considered child endangerment???

I think you were right to explain to your child that you believe spanking is wrong. But I think that a$$ also had a right to assert his authority as a parent, even though I totally disagree with his method, and that you kind of crossed the line by saying it loud enough for them to hear.

All that said







, I think the mom was jerky for following you around and harassing you. Although, I must admit, if you criticized me loud enough for my kids and myself to hear you, I would probably tell you off, too!









I guess my point is not that it's OK to spank, but more that we have to be very careful about telling others how to parent-- lest someone come in and tell *us* how *we* should be doing things. There is a very fine line here, and it goes both ways. PS: hugs to you for having to deal with this situation in the first place.


----------



## arwenevenstar (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy*
I was a voice of dissent and here's what I said: "*OP-it was OKAY for you to explain to your kids ""Spanking is wrong, mommies and daddies should not hit their kids." BUT if you said it loud enough...for the benefit of the Spanking Parents...then what type of reaction were you expecting?* "

The OP said she felt harassed...well, when you Publicly take a stance against a heated topic as Spanking and you don't know WHO you are dealing with...then you embrace ALL types of reactions.

I still don't understand why the OP was surprised at such a vehement response from the Spanking Mom.


I understand what newmommy is saying here and I don't think she is attacking the OP in fact I agree, BUT

if more people DID make a stand on these issues then there wouldn't be the problems there are today.
I strongly feel that "fear" is a great weapon, and the sorry tale is that many people would have turned a blind eye to this or if he was hitting his wife.








It's the attitude that "it's okay if I do this cos everyone will be too scared to stop me" that I mean.

There are a few things worrying me:
1. Why was she just sitting back and watching? - was she provoking a reaction do you suppose?

2. I feel he probably hits her, how on earth can she scream at you and watch him hit her baby otherwise.......not that I am condoning her actions!

3. The reaction itself - totally blown up and out of control, anger issues here!

I think your reaction was correct, I would have said the same thing to my children, they have a right to know that some people do hit their children but it is wrong. I think you were just unfortunate that tbh, I think she was looking for a reaction from someone and was sitting close enough to you to hear it. Perhaps, in her defense (??!!) she was feeling out of control with him, like another poster said, and this is her way of "reclaiming her control"???

I dunno, some people are beyond the realms of understanding.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

Many MDC mamas complain about being criticized for NIP, for cosleeping, for babywearing, for choosing homebirth, etc.
All of which are not acts of violence. I do get offended when my parenting is harrassed when I am not doing anything detremental to my daughter. Those examples are moot imo...I sort of see your point in that we shouldn't criticize others' parenting when we feel so criticized for other things... however when it crosses the line into violence, I will "criticize", or how I see it, advocate on behalf of the child in question, or adult, or animal, whoever the victim is.

The fact that violence against children is "mainstream" doesn't make it right and I for one, won't sit back and watch it happen.

Quote:

(I also think there is a difference between spanking a diapered butt and backhanding your wife.
See, I see no difference. Sure, one may say there is a difference in how bad it may physically hurt in the moment, but to me, violence is violence, shame is shame-- putting your hands on someone with the intent to control or to hurt them (even emotionally) is never okay with me.


----------



## Quinn'sMommy (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Sheena,
I have taken an oath, literally, on the www.NoSpank.net site to intervene if I ever see a child hit by an adult. Hitting a child is assault. An environment without recourse where a child is repeatedly subjected to being hit, is abuse. Period.


Thanks for the link. I love that website. I can't decide what to read first there's so much stuff there.


----------



## phaeon (Nov 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
All of which are not acts of violence.... I do get offended when my parenting is harrassed when I am not doing anything detremental to my daughter. Those examples are moot imo...I sort of see your point in that we shouldn't criticize others' parenting when we feel so criticized for other things... however when it crosses the line into violence, I will "criticize", or how I see it, advocate on behalf of the child in question, or adult, or animal, whoever the victim is.

True, they are not acts of violence in the sense that spanking is hitting, whereas my examples are loving expressions... But I disagree when you say they are moot examples. I've had several people tell me that, for example, cosleeping is dangerous to my child- i.e. that she could be "hurt" by that behavior (like if we rolled over on her, or whatever). And I've also had several people tell me that my planned homebirth is dangerous for my child. One even suggested I shouldn't be "allowed" to do it! (Allowed?! By WHOM?!?!) So these people are telling me that I am physically endangering / hurting my child by this behavior, just like we're saying this guy is hurting his child by spanking. I think there *is* a parallel here. I am NOT an advocate of spanking, and am NOT suggesting that this guy was right in swatting his kiddo. Just trying to point out that we should be sensitive about how we judge others, that's all.


----------



## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy*
I agree with you.

OP-it was OKAY for you to explain to your kids "*"Spanking is wrong, mommies and daddies should not hit their kids."* BUT if you said it loud enough...for the benefit of the Spanking Parents...then what type of reaction were you expecting?

Anytime you decide to take a strong stance against a heated topic as spanking...then you had better be prepared to embrace whatever comes your way and in Public no less.

Yes, I believe the mother was wrong to scream at you and call you an idiot, but you attacked her Parenting skills (no matter how wrong they were) and she reacted on the defensive side.

You touched a Hot Button at the wrong time in the wrong place.

To avoid this type of scenario again (and you absolutely should expect this again...because people are going to spank their kids whether we like it or not), then you and your family should quietly leave and reiterate to them that yes some parents spank.


I have to agree with this. I think that just by saying it loud enough to be heard you kinda have to expect a reaction.
If I had not wanted a confrontation I would have quietly spoken to my children as we left the table.
Now I am not saying it was wrong to speak up. I think that it is a good thing. But just that in doing so, a confrontation is to be expected.

Joline


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Did anyone read my post??? I didn't say it loud! I said it quietly to my kids. And I didn't say it as we were leaving because we had just sat down, didn't even have our food yet.

Why should we have left??? We just sat down. I'm confused about why I have to tippy-toe around someone else's offensive behavior. Why should we have had to leave?

Oh, and one more thing: Isn't this a GD support board? I am pretty sure support for spankers is not allowed.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Okay, lets say the woman could reasonable overhear Sheena's comment (which I consider totally appropriate, btw--- you need to tell your child RIGHT THEN that that is not right).

If I could over hear someone saying something like, "OMG, look at her nursing that child. That is just disgusting." or the like I *do* have the right to turn around and make a comment, IMO. I do NOT have the right to follow her around for the rest of the day making catcalls and trying to incite a riot. IMO, Sheena would have been totally reasonable to ask for the management to deal with it or to call the police if they would not.


----------



## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I am not supporting spankers in any way. I am and would have been just as shocked and disgusted as you were.
You said you spoke to your children. YOu did not actually state how quietly you said it.
HOwever as you were aware she was within earshot, you would have been aware that you would have been overheard.
I think moving tables is a way to tell your children, "I do not approve of this and we shall not be witness of this any longer"
I am not suggesting you leave the restaurant.
And anyway I am not suggesting you actually DO any of those things. Or even that you were wrong in making your comment within earshot. But that when we do take a stand, even if we mean to do it to ourselves, if others are there to witness that stand, it is likely to lead to confrontation.
I actively admire all of the women here who have the strength and determination to speak up even knowing that it will lead to confrontation and unpleasantness.
My statement is only to imply that if you really want to avoid confrontation, it is probably a pretty good idea to know who is within earshot before making a judgemental comment.

Of course, I also think that following up with the management once the harassment continues is an excellent course of action when the woman just cant seem to stop "reacting".


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
You said you spoke to your children. YOu did not actually state how quietly you said it.


I did.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
I said it like I would normally speak. I didn't speak up but nor did I whisper.


----------



## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
I did.

Ok but still, "like you normally speak" having never spoken to you doesnt really describe.
Like I normally speak is very loud! I have quite the lungs. I 'whisper' all the time when I want private conversation in public, and it in no way implies that there is anythign "wrong" with what I am saying. Only that it is private. (or that my 13 year old asked me for the umpteenth time to be quiet)

Many people stated that you spoke quietly to your children, which you did not really state. I felt it was still unclear.
Again no attack. You have the RIGHT to speak your mind.
But if you talk about somebody within their hearing, you really ought to expect a confrontation.


----------



## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

You did the right thing, and you were smart not to shout back at that woman, as tempting as it was. It only would have escalated her already out of control behavior. I would have had no qualms calling the police on her for harrassing you though. You calmy made a statement to your family about spanking being wrong, etc. It's not your fault the woman took it personally and freaked out. It's not like you were yelling in her face, calling her a bad mom, yk? You have a right to speak your feelings without being followed around the rest of the day, being verbally harrassed! Once the police heard both sides of the story, you would have come out looking like the sane one, imo.
I'm sorry you had to deal with such a public confrontation, but bravo to you for standing up for that poor toddler! I'm not sure I would have been as brave and risked public confrontation.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
But if you talk about somebody within their hearing, you really ought to expect a confrontation.

They were in public and did not even know these people. Why should someone always expect a confrontation?


----------



## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

I could throw up thinking of what that child's life is like day in and day out. And he has many more years under that roof.









If your comment gives them reason to pause just once in that little boy's life and put their hand down and not hit him, it was worth your getting attacked in the restaurant and taking a few swings here as well.

Way to spread the peace, mama.


----------



## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
They were in public and did not even know these people.

All the more reason why you have to be extra careful these days on who is hearing your comments re them...we live in a society where people *react* (dangerously, following you home etc.) first and *think* later.

Thank goodness she and her family are safe.


----------



## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy*
All the more reason why you have to be extra careful these days on who is hearing your comments re them...we live in a society where people *react* (dangerously, following you home etc.) first and *think* later.

Thank goodness she and her family are safe.

Yes Exactly! Assaults and fights have started simply as a result of a look.

I agree that among civilized people it should not be the case that an overheard private conversation becomes "fighting words" to somebody. It is polite to not listen to words spoken by somebody else if they weren't meant for you. And when it cannot be avoided, the polite thing to do is to at least pretend you dont hear. (Implied rather than real privacy).
But so many people just dont do that anymore.
Even a look, body language, and words spoken quietly to another are taken by complete strangers to be active insults which must be responded to.
I am NOT in any way saying it is right. Not at all!
It just is.
Joline


----------



## kittymac (Nov 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annab*
I could throw up thinking of what that child's life is like day in and day out. And he has many more years under that roof.









If your comment gives them reason to pause just once in that little boy's life and put their hand down and not hit him, it was worth your getting attacked in the restaurant and taking a few swings here as well.

Way to spread the peace, mama.

Well said! It made me cry thinking about that poor baby. While I am a live and let live kind of person, there are some things that are worth making a stand for...and violence against children is definately one of them!

Shelley


----------



## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

I do see the point about different parenting styles and getting defensive about it, co-sleeping and home birthing especially because it's seen as a safety issue. However, this woman went way overboard with her reaction.

If she did overhear it and it bugged her, she should have just told the OP to mind her own business and left it at that, or even moved tables.

It's rather nutty to start yelling at her and calling her an idiot and following her around and trying to muster a posse against her at the Chuck-E-Cheese, for goodness sake, it sounds like a Kevin Smith movie.

For my own sake, OP Momma, I would have said the same thing, and then moved tables to get away from them, and I would have left if she had followed me like that, and I would have called the police if she had persisted with her harassment.

As far as the hitting his wife goes, it is within the law to spank children, it is not within the law to hit spouses or any other adult, without thier consent. The law views children differently, whether some parents agree with it or not.


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

I know the law views it differently but that doesn't make it OK. The law in North Carolina up until about 10 years ago made marital rape legal but that didn't make it OK, KWIM?

If she would have told me to mind my own business I would have felt she had every right, you know? Just a quick "Oh mind your own business lady." But I actually wondered for a few seconds if she might physically attack me. I don't like to get into confrontations in front of my kids. I still remember once when I was 5 and my dad got into a yelling fight at the grocery store, it was so scary.

Anyway, I just want to clarify that we weren't at Chuck E. Cheese we were at this place called Gatti Town which is MUCH bigger and more spread out. Just so you can get a mental picture.

The posse thing cracked me up, lol.


----------



## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

IMO the abusive behavior of the father and the aggressive nature of the mother paint a scary picture of the dynamics in that family. I'm sorry you and your child had to witness that, but I'm even more sorry for the babies that must live in that situation. I will pray for those kids tonight.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I would probably have done what you did Sheena, or spoken directly to the person.

I don't like passive-aggressive stuff like moving tables. To me all that teaches the children is that mama is afraid to say something, or that the child's predicament isn't our problem.

I would have expected something similar to what you expected, like for her to say MYOB or something like that. But for her to harrass you and become aggressive crosses the line.

If you don't want ppl to talk about you, don't abuse your child in public.


----------



## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

I totally hear you, Sheena, I just wanted to point out the difference in the law when some of the posters were comparing it directly to hitting adults. That doesn't make it right, it just makes it "legal", thus, you did not call the police as you might have if he HAD hit his wife, right?

Aw, my "mustering a posse" is funnier if you set it in a Chuck-e-Cheez, there are mascots there that can get involved!









Hang in there woman.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

the only thing that makes me uncomfortable about the way it got handled was that provoking already antagonized people can be dangerous. not even to you so much, but what are those kids going to have to look forward to when they get home? calming your kids down was a worthy goal, but as dr phil would say, how's that workin' for you? i'm guessing everyone involved went home much more upset than they started.

i would have been more likely to get the management to call security & tell them a man was beating a small child & moseying my butt on out once i saw it was being handled. i know that when i had harassing neighbors that let their pit bull out to roam & kill my cat on my front porch, trading comments with them (no matter how right i was or how abusive they sounded) didn't stop the behavior till i called the cops & the dog went at *them*, then the guy did too! (and subsequently went to jail.) they have been pretty quiet in the years since then.

it only ended up with that insane shrew feeling vindicated and you, who tried to do the right thing, getting abused in turn. the cops (and legal spanking or not, any episode as you've described would be considered child abuse) might have made a deeper impression. one that might have led to change.

anyways, it all sounds horrible, hindsight is twenty-twenty, and you certainly didn't *deserve* any of it.


----------



## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I don't like passive-aggressive stuff like moving tables. To me all that teaches the children is that mama is afraid to say something, or that the child's predicament isn't our problem.

I would have expected something similar to what you expected, like for her to say MYOB or something like that. But for her to harrass you and become aggressive crosses the line.

But what if your nature is passive-agressive! LOL And if mama IS afraid to say something or doesnt imagine that she can have any real affect on the child's predicament. I am not saying these things are right. But just as we try to respect our children's inborn temperaments, it is sometimes hard to respect our own.

And yes, "mind your own business" would have been the civilized response and what she did DID completely cross the line. But these people were already across the line when they started hitting their baby.


----------



## guest^ (Oct 29, 2002)

To the OP......you didn't do a damn thing wrong. Her harrassement spells guilty for her.

One time my sis was BFing my then 3yo nephew in a nice Indian restaurant, when she saw a woman across the room keep hitting her *highchaired* baby on her head each time the baby *reached*! for something. My sis kept getting more and more upset witnessing this.....so she stood up and walked over to the lady and told her how hard parenting can be-then handed her a piece of paper with GD content. THE WOMAN GRABBED MY SIS AROUND THE NECK AND SLAMMED HER HEAD TO THE TABLE,YELLING AT HER TO NOT TELL HER HOW TO RAISE HER KIDS!!!!!! The police were called, and the woman was taken away.







: You never know, but I would do the same thing. What b*tch*s!!! Can you even imagine the home life????









mp


----------



## Butterflymagic (Sep 25, 2005)

I am a Christian and I don't spank my children ...I use to spank though in my not knowing better days. The woman must have a very low opinion of herself,to carry on like that,actions like that are what give Christians a well not so nice name.I would have reported the family to the management because that was abuse in public,here in Illinois you can get in big trouble for spanking in public,it is abuse.


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamapoppins*
THE WOMAN GRABBED MY SIS AROUND THE NECK AND SLAMMED HER HEAD TO THE TABLE,YELLING AT HER TO NOT TELL HER HOW TO RAISE HER KIDS!!!!!! The police were called, and the woman was taken away.







: You never know, but I would do the same thing. What b*tch*s!!! Can you even imagine the home life????









mp

WOWZERS!!!!!


----------



## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

What if the op had an insistent dc demanding to know why that boy was getting hit? My oldest dd will escalate her questions until I answer them, there is no way I could have avoided commenting on the situation. But, op, you handled it much better then I would have, I would have gone off on the b*&%^.

I feel so bad for the poor baby, he was probably over stimulated by it all.


----------



## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamapoppins*
One time my sis was BFing my then 3yo nephew in a nice Indian restaurant, when she saw a woman across the room keep hitting her *highchaired* baby on her head each time the baby *reached*! for something. My sis kept getting more and more upset witnessing this.....so she stood up and walked over to the lady and told her how hard parenting can be-then handed her a piece of paper with GD content. THE WOMAN GRABBED MY SIS AROUND THE NECK AND SLAMMED HER HEAD TO THE TABLE,YELLING AT HER TO NOT TELL HER HOW TO RAISE HER KIDS!!!!!! The police were called, and the woman was taken away.

Holy frijoles! That is just unbelievable.


----------



## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
I mean, she was RIGHT behind me and could have definitely heard my conversation but if she was particularly listening she would have for sure heard us.


I understand your were upset and you wanted to say something and I think it would have been fine to actually say something directly to the woman but to use the passive aggressive technique of speaking through your child is most likely what set the woman off.

I think PPs are right ~ you don't know how a stranger will react to such comments (and i am going to say that a man smacking around his toddler is not someone I would want to confront nor his content-with-the-situation wife). Ant that story about the woman in the Indian restaurant is very scary.

I have made my fair share of comments to moms in the past and have been lucky in that it doesn't go past a few nasty comments my way but after reading through this thread, I will think twice before confronting someone directly and instead look for a manager/security/police to deal with the situation.

Maggie


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:

understand your were upset and you wanted to say something and I think it would have been fine to actually say something directly to the woman but to use the passive aggressive technique of speaking through your child is most likely what set the woman off.
For pete's sake... you're making assumptions here, and I have already addressed them once. I wasn't being passive aggressive, I was simply speaking. Is it passive aggressive any time I speak to my kids? Must I always consider everyone around me before I make statements.


----------



## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

Sheena - I am sorry if you think I was making assumptions but I was honestly going by your posts:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
I turned to my kids and said, "Spanking is wrong, mommies and daddies should not hit their kids." Then I said something to dh about how I hate seeing that in public.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
I mean, she was RIGHT behind me and could have definitely heard my conversation but if she was particularly listening she would have for sure heard us.

I think it is fine to speak up when you see something like this, I believe it is far better to actually speak directly to the person as this probably will not produce the ire that it did in this particular person.

And because I think I am starting to act like the restaurant lady here...I will stop posting.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Sheena, thank you for speaking up.....loudly enough to make a difference.









Pat


----------



## Apryl Srissa (Oct 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phaeon*
*putting on my Tyvek flame-proof suit*








While I TOTALLY agree that spanking is wrong on many levels, I also see a touch of hypocrisy here with regards to parents' rights. Many MDC mamas complain about being criticized for NIP, for cosleeping, for babywearing, for choosing homebirth, etc. These are very non-mainstream ideas, and yet we (MDCers) constantly complain about being harassed with respect to these choices. And how do you feel when your parenting decisions are attacked? Angry! Bitter! Outraged!! You come to MDC and post a







rant and all the other like-minded mamas support you in your tirade!







Hmmm..

Spanking is, like it or not, a mainstream parenting technique, and unfortunately, many parents resort to it. Those parents believe as fervently as you do not that spanking is an important part of discipline. While I find it revolting and stomach-churning, I have to swallow the bile and remember that *my* parenting choices are just as repulsive to some people. What if you were NIP, and another parent pulled their child aside and said, "oh, honey, some people are just so obscene to do things like that"? Obviously that parent is







, but how would you feel? Especially if your nursling was old enough to understand the comment?? I'm not trying to defend the spanker. I think the guy was a jerk and could have used a million other approaches to help his child with the situation. (I also think there is a difference between spanking a diapered butt and backhanding your wife. And I'm assuming he was "spanking" and not "beating" the child--that's a different bag of chips.) But, like it or not, he has a legal right to raise his kid the way he thinks is best. So do you. Would you like someone coming in and telling you that you could no longer cosleep, because it was dangerous? (That day might yet come, if the crib manufacturers have their way!!) What if someone tried to arrest you or take away your baby after your homebirth, because it was considered child endangerment???

I think you were right to explain to your child that you believe spanking is wrong. But I think that a$$ also had a right to assert his authority as a parent, even though I totally disagree with his method, and that you kind of crossed the line by saying it loud enough for them to hear.

All that said







, I think the mom was jerky for following you around and harassing you. Although, I must admit, if you criticized me loud enough for my kids and myself to hear you, I would probably tell you off, too!









I guess my point is not that it's OK to spank, but more that we have to be very careful about telling others how to parent-- lest someone come in and tell *us* how *we* should be doing things. There is a very fine line here, and it goes both ways. PS: hugs to you for having to deal with this situation in the first place.


I agree completely. I find spanking totally wrong, and would probably have upset kids if my kids saw that so would have to explain to them also. But I think if we were talking 'mild spanking' vs beating I would try to be quiet about just for that same reason. Except for one thing, a less than 2 year old isn't capable of stopping a melt down just cuz Dad said to, so a spanking is not at all ok. That isn't spanking a kid, that is venting cuz your angry at your toddler. I am pretty sure that I remember reading somewhere that there are some laws about that in some state, concerning really young little ones. Guess once they are a bit bigger, they are considered ok to knock around







:

Either way, I'm so glad for those kiddos that they heard you say that. At least they know it isn't them. Hopefully that was a rare occurance in their family, but if not the kids heard some hope. The families I have known that spank don't do it often, so I do think that it is more rare than it used to be. And I totally agree that kids DO need discipline, often way more than they are given. But discipline and hitting aren't the same thing. To me, discipline is about teaching my child how to behave and how to handle himself, not to do what I say no matter what. Assuming he'll ever leave my sight, I want him to have his own judgement, not be just doing what he is told.


----------



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

phaeon, hope there aren't any holes in your suit! I'm sure that some people had (and still have) the same attitude about a man hitting a woman in public (provided the woman is his wife or, in some cases, his sister or another female relative). Some things are WRONG. Someone can insult and judge me nursing Simon in public all they want. Guess what? I won't be threatened by that. I'm confident in my choices and if they want to be rude when I am doing what is in Simon's best interests... so be it. I'll either shoot them a dirty look or try to educate them. What I won't do is pretend that it's o.k. to go about hitting children in public. It sounds like this happens A LOT in the states. More people need to be speaking up against it so that it becomes a taboo there as it is in other parts of the world. I am SO SO SO thankful that public spanking so rarely happens here (I'm in Ontario, Canada) that I've yet to see it. I'm sure that it was common enough not too long ago that it would have been seen in public.

After a heated exchange like the one Sheena describes, people often dwell over what was said and continue to think things out. Some are even inclined to do further research on the issue -- which is something I would insist if arguing with someone who thinks that spanking is necessary and good parenting or someone who thinks that nursing past a year or whatever is disgusting. If people think these out in relation to extended nursing and do more research about it, they are far more apt to come to the position here advocated than is the case in relation to doing more research about spanking. Of course, some people will only turn to James Dobson for advice... but the more public outrage against spanking, the better. Even die-hard Dobsonians don't want to be condemned as a bad parent in public.

Even if one thinks that spanking is o.k., how about the fact that this act was in public, and done to a young toddler? Let's add public humiliation and corporeal punishment simply FOR BEING UPSET/OVERWHELMED by ChuckECheeze (or whatever loud toddler-unfriendly place they were at) into the mix. Good grief. I'd be repulsed if there were plenty of people around and no one bothered to so much as hint at the FACT that the response of the father was totally inappropriate. When such a thing happens to a woman getting beaten on the street, the newspapers find it worthy of reporting. Sure this is on a lesser scale, but it is happening to a defenseless child who is simply overwhelmed by his surroundings. GRRRRRR.


----------



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

You did a great thing, mama.


----------



## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

I interpret your actions as trying to deal with a very disturbing scene and trying to make sure your child didn't become distressed and saying the calmest, strongest statement you could to reassure your child. I haven't read all the previous posts but has anyone mentioned how utterly disturbing it is--for all the right reasons-- to observe a grown person beating a toddler? It's supposed to bother us.

You did put yourself on the line by saying something she could hear. The fact that she blew up at you and followed you around...well, I would tell myself, that's pretty much what you could expect from someone who thinks it's ok to beat their toddler in public. The best definition I saw of spanking --the one that made me think the most-- was that it is a parental temper tantrum--unable or unwilling to find a better way. And I say that as someone who did hit my child on the bottom once out of sheer frustration and never wanted to do it again when I saw my 84 year old father crying at the memory of how his father beat him as a child. How deeply those memories get buried and how long they last is no mystery to me anymore.

Sometimes speaking up is hard, and you take a verbal beating but I'm old enough to have seen that more often than not you do plant a seed with someone in those moments, altho maybe not your intended recipient. It sounds to me like you kept your cool with a very good thought: you don't have to hurt your children to discipline them. That's a rich seed. You hit a raw nerve.

Where is the phrase from that says evil is when good people do nothing?


----------



## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

Found it: All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. --Edmund Burke


----------



## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Wow. Call 911 next time and report child abuse in progress. Outrageous.

I am so proud of you for saying something. Way to go!


----------



## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

It sounds like she was feeling guilty about it, and taking it out on you. Abusing you, as it were, for calling out her dh's abuse.







to you. Hope your kids weren't too traumatized by the whole insane scene.


----------



## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

This is the first time I've had time to read this thread, and I just wanted to say how sorry I am that you had to meet those horrible parents.







to you and your family for having to endure their attacks.

~Nay


----------



## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

WOW. This was the talk of our dinner table tonight. I can't believe that CRAZY woman. And her husband.

I'm speechless.....

Except to say: I would have given anything as a child to hear someone say that it wasn't me: that it was them (my parents). That they were wrong to do what they were doing. Very wrong.

If I were that lady's children, no matter if I got beaten later for it or not, I would have held on to that my whole life.

That and: we don't have to hurt children to discipline them.

mv


----------



## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

I would have called the cops right there in front of her. It IS abuse, a slap on the butt I would let pass.. but 3 or 4 hits? No way... and she seems really unstable from what you've described.


----------



## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

I have no doubt that this woman was sensitive to the abuse and was eavesdropping into any conversation she thought might be about her. Good for you for explaining to your children that violence against children is wrong, and I'm sorry she went off on you like that.


----------



## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9*
you don't know how a stranger will react to such comments (and i am going to say that a man smacking around his toddler is not someone I would want to confront nor his content-with-the-situation wife

Exactly right. I believe this sums of up the whole point I was trying to make.

If someone is beating their child...they are already in a fit of rage.

What happens when they turn the rage on YOU?

You have 2 choices:

A. Call Security, the Police, Management or whoever the authorities are and report public abuse...you could walk behind them if you want to show YOU were the one to alert someone.

OR

B. Do exactly what you did again except THIS time Sheena, be ready for battle.

I gather from your original post, you weren't ready for battle. You weren't ready to deal with her screaming at you. Perhaps you thought she would ignore your comment. Perhaps not. But she didn't. She went into a fit of rage. SHE was ready for battle and drew her weapons (her actions by following you around and screaming at you) You said she followed you around the restaurant screaming at you and you begin to feel harassed (and rightly so).

How do you know you weren't dealing with a total psycho? How do you know she wouldn't have taken it to the next level...follow you HOME and shoot you and your family dead in cold blood? How do you know?

If you didn't wan't your comment heard- you would have *whispered* and STILL gotten your point across to your family.

If you were so angry at what you witnessed and was ready for battle- you did what you did.

Your actions (letting them hear your comment by not *whispering*)told ME you were ready for battle, but then you post here and expressed you couldn't believe what happened to you.

I absolutely would have expected THAT type of reaction from someone who is ALREADY beating their child.

And I also believe, when someone is in a fit of rage, it is NOT the time to promote advocacy. You wait until their temper is simmered and cool. They aren't into receiving mode and you are just fueling the flame.

So next time, I say choose your actions very carefully with your *family's safety in mind first.*

You said your DS doesn't like confrontations. Well, when you see this a father/mother spanking their child in public, you again have those to choices to make.

Because if you make another comment (and the Outraged Parents *hear you* be ready for a Confrontation.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I choose not to live in fear of the 6' 2" man any longer. I will speak up. I will not allow another's anger to control my choices. I will not directly endanger my children. I would call 911. But, I will not be afraid of a man who is "big enough" to bully a baby.









Pat


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Thought this quote by Peggy O'Mara in Mothering, 1989, was appropriate









Quote:

If there are countries in which violence is rare, then perhaps there is a better, more civilized, and legally sanctioned way to deal with conflict. Law, after all, is an outgrowth of public opinion, and public opinion is a great socializer. Let us change our minds about spanking. Let us become a public opinion outraged at "small" acts of violence with far-reaching effects. In civilized countries, women and children are not victimized...


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy*
Exactly right. I believe this sums of up the whole point I was trying to make.

If someone is beating their child...they are already in a fit of rage.

What happens when they turn the rage on YOU?


Let them, then their butt will be sitting in jail for assult. Because its not legal to hit people that aren't your children.


----------



## Nanners (Nov 28, 2004)

I hate seeing stuff like that, too, and would've done exactly as you did.


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Oh, if she would have assaulted me it would have been much easier. I'm not afraid of another woman, I'm sure I can hold my own. I would be scared of a man but not in a public place. If she would have assaulted me I would have taken it and then called the police.

As it is I could have called 911 but nothing would have happened. In Texas your right to spank is actually protected by the law.









The more I think about it the more I wonder if she might be an abused woman. Or at least a woman living in fear of her own spouse. It was such an over the top reaction I wonder if it was some kind of defense mechanism. You know, like maybe if she defended him she wouldn't be getting her own whooping later. I don't know, maybe that is a stretch.

Either way, I have decided that in the future I have to come up with a better way. I WILL NOT have my children seeing me witness something like that and not speak up. And it won't be just to them, I will speak to the parents because to let injustice happen and watch it slide by is to be an accomplice, IMO. I just need to figure out what is the best way to help a parent who clearly needs it without making them go nuts.

I still can't help but hope that maybe she went home or to church and told everyone she knew (she was half way to telling the entire world that day) and maybe, just maybe, someone said, "You know, we don't believe in spanking either." And maybe she got online and did some kind of research. That's probably hoping too much.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy*
How do you know you weren't dealing with a total psycho? How do you know she wouldn't have taken it to the next level...follow you HOME and shoot you and your family dead in cold blood? How do you know?

What?!?! I am not sure anyone *knows* if they are dealing with a psycho who is going to kill them and their family.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

Because its not legal to hit people that aren't your children.
This too shall pass. It is too sad and irrational to be a 'truth' forever. Every individual makes a difference.

"With our thoughts we create the world."~Buddha

Pat


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Georgia, thank you for the quote. There is another way to resolve conflicts. See the Center for Non-violent Communcations at www.CNVC.org.

Pat


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
What?!?! I am not sure anyone *knows* if they are dealing with a psycho who is going to kill them and their family.

I know... I think that sentiment is pushing it a wee bit. I mean, anyone techincally could be a psycho.


----------



## ehsclt (Mar 11, 2005)

I have only read the OP. Many have probably said what I am about to say. I just wanted to commend you on what you did, standing up for what you believe in, in front of your children and to strangers. I am so sorry you had to deal with people treating you this way (and their children this way in front of you.) You should be proud of yourself for behaving the way you did. And, I bet you got through to SOMEONE who was present. I bet you made someone think a little bit differently about how they are with their own children.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Pat, I've actually studied NVC in the past and met Marshall in person


----------



## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

Sheena, I would have done the exact same thing. For kids who aren't used to seeing spanking, it can be terribly upsetting. I think Sheena did the right thing in addressing it with her kids rather than letting them be confused, scared and traumatized by what they saw. Heaven forbid one of Sheena's kids had spoken up and said something about the spanking, I'm guessing that the other mother still would have had something to say to Sheena's family. As least the rage was directed toward Sheena and not one of her children. I know my children would have been confused had we witnessed something like that and not talked to them about it.

Ninety nine percent of the time if this exact same thing had happened, the other mother might have rolled her eyes, or said myob. This family obviously has gone over the edge and simply doesn't know how to effectively deal with their children anymore. I think the mom must have some issues with the discipline or she wouldn't have responded that way. Either that, or this isn't the first time someone has commented on their parenting style in public.

You shouldn't have any regrets for doing what you did to reassure your children that what they were seeing wasn't right.


----------



## ThinkBlu (Oct 17, 2005)

I haven't read all the replies, and I'm sure my response is not welcome here...

I'm sorry that you witnessed what you felt was abuse. In the event that it was abuse, I'm sorry that the authorities were not called. In the event that it was not abuse, but rather 'mainstream' parenting, I think that you were generally out of line critizing their parenting, loud enough for them to hear, in front of their children. If it were my or my spouses parenting that was being critized in front of my children, I too would have a hard time not feeling and acting in a defensive way.


----------



## arimama (Feb 13, 2004)

Thinkblu,
With that logic, it would be out of line for anyone to speak up on behalf of a woman who was being hit by her husband or male relative in another culture where that is seen as ok, or "mainstream"
Right?

Or even in the U.S if a woman was being pushed, or berated or screamed at at by her partner in public, would it be wrong to loudly state your objection to what was happening? Or would that be interfering with their private relationship matters?


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
Pat, I've actually studied NVC in the past and met Marshall in person









WOW!! I am delighted. I hope you understood that I was advocating not contradicting Peggy's quote. I would love to take an NVC trainers course. Ultimately, someday....it is a passion of mine.

Are you on the NVCParenting site? I find it challenging.







I am a "fix it" kinda a gal.









Pat


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arimama*
Thinkblu,
With that logic, it would be out of line for anyone to speak up on behalf of a woman who was being hit by her husband or male relative in another culture where that is seen as ok, or "mainstream"
Right?

Or even in the U.S if a woman was being pushed, or berated or screamed at at by her partner in public, would it be wrong to loudly state your objection to what was happening? Or would that be interfering with their private relationship matters?


Now. Now. Now, women and children are property, you know.







Property rights and all.....yada, yada.

(see Georgia, I am not quite there about ageism and children's rights and empathy and non-confrontation.







)

Pat


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I guess the different perspectives here come from people who think differently and have different perspectives on the issue (duh lol)

What I mean is, for me personally, being a staunch feminist, an animal rights activist, and an advocate for children and for people in general who are being mistreated -- coupled with my lack of fear of confrontation... I would have probably reacted more forcefully than Sheena even. I would have firmly looked the father in the eye and said "stop hitting that child" or something similar. I would have gotten management and demanded that they put a stop to acts of violence in their establishment.

That is me though. Some people are very non-confrontational and though they would totally feel bad and think to themselves that the person hitting the child/woman/dog/whatever was wrong, would do nothing.

I don't have fear of being "killed by a psycho", honestly. Usually people who are cowardice enough to prey on small children and animals, or people more defenseless of themselves, are inside, very insecure and believe it or not, non-confrontational. They are used to not being challenged, because who they usually "challenge" (child, woman, animal) is not capable or is too afraid to challenge them and usually people like that are VERY taken aback when someone openly challenges them and are at a loss of what to do.

You can thank my Sociology major and years of student loan debt for that









Seriously though, in a public place, where there are witnesses and such, I wouldn't think twice about confronting someone who was committing an act of violence on someone else. I am not trying to come across as some kind of bad-ass or something --
It is just my nature to act first..as I have gotten older, I have learned to be more diplomatic in situations, but I would never not say anything out of some fear that someone was going to murder me....statistically, there is a much higher chance of my own husband murdering me than some random stranger, but heck, I sleep next to him every night without fear....














(that statistic is true though by the way)


----------



## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

That man was a bully. The woman was a bully. The man was bullying in a typical boy way and the woman in a typical girl way. I see many comparisons in the way this occurred as the events that occur frequently at my older children's school. The boys "bully" those smaller than them and the girls spread rumours, gossip, make comments etc. to bother the person they are bullying. These people have not grown up and I feel for their children.

Sheena did the right thing to explain to her children. I know I do it all the time, we see something disturbing and I then and there explain that we don't do that and she never has to fear that happening to her.

Since I consider this adult bullying I also would, depending on the situation, confront them. If that woman had followed me around I would have turned immediately to her and said "say it to my face coward" and confronted her head on.

I have no tolerance for bullies and I generally tell them so. Hitting a small defenceless child in the name of discipline is the lowest form of bullying in my opinion.

You did the right thing Sheena. WTG


----------



## ThinkBlu (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arimama*
Thinkblu,
With that logic, it would be out of line for anyone to speak up on behalf of a woman who was being hit by her husband or male relative in another culture where that is seen as ok, or "mainstream"
Right?

Not sure how to respond to this, but if it were legal for a woman to be hit by her husband or other male relative, I guess I would see it as out of line to critize on a person by person basis, for acting within their 'rights'. More than out of line, I would see it as ineffective, and potentially harmful as you are putting the agressor in a situation of possibly feeling as if they have to save face, possibly more endangering the recipient and possibly yourself or others. I think that in situations where one disagrees with the law, they should work to change the law, or work in ways to change thinking on a global scale, not work on a case by case basis, particularly not in the heat of the moment, particularly not in ways that has no choice but to fall on deaf ears, possibly more entrencing the agressors negative stance. In situations where the agressor is acting outside of the law. I think it obviously in the best interest to involve authorities and as approipriate to intervene until the authorities arrive.

Quote:

Or even in the U.S if a woman was being pushed, or berated or screamed at at by her partner in public, would it be wrong to loudly state your objection to what was happening? Or would that be interfering with their private relationship matters?
Much same as above, not wrong, but ineffective and IMO most likely more harmful than helpful.

I consider myself to be pretty thoughtful and open minded, but when/if total strangers made comments about my parenting calling it "wrong", stating "mommies and daddies should not" (or should), "hate seeing in public"
or heaven forbid if they used the word "abuse" (think of all in the confines of extended breastfeeding), I honestly don't think I could 'hear' anything else. If this was abuse, by all means step in and get authorities involved, don't simply make remarks that IMO have NO CHANCE of being effective. If this was not abuse, recognize that different people have different parenting styles...it does not mean that they haven't thought about it, it doesn't mean they need to be educated (keep in mind there are many resources and esperts that can be sited for spanking) it means they have made different choices. In that case, turn your attention to that which is within your realm of influence, your family, and if you think they should not have the right to make the choices they have made, devote your attention and energy to changing the law so that they no longer have the choice to parent as they see fit.


----------



## Kira's mom (Nov 30, 2004)

I would have done the same.I am proud of you beacuse you explained to your dc'sand took care of your own family. It does sound like she feels terribly guilty.People don't usually react so defensively unless they feel they've done something wrong.And to me that is very very wrong.


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I don't think you did wrong, OP, but I'm not sure you did right either. On the one hand, it's good and necessary to speak up about things that hurt children. OTOH, shaming a parent publicly may result in their kid getting another beating once they get out to the car. Personally, I choose to speak up in other ways, but I'm open to the idea that I may be wrong in my approach.

It's a really tough spot to be in, and I'm sorry you and your family had to deal with it. I've been harshly criticized for NIP before (by two people talking loudly enough for me to overhear), and I was very pissed off and spoke to the management about it, but I certainly didn't create a scene like that woman did.


----------



## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

I just wanted to say . . . where I grew up, we'd see men slapping their girlfriend or wife around or folks being extremely harsh with their children but you quickly learned to mind your own business lest the abuser turn on you (which I've seen more times than I care t o mention--even nuns have been turned on). That being said, if we saw anything disturbing when we were somewhere, my mom would just hold our hand tighter or hug us, move us along or tell us not to worry. At home, we'd discuss it. Being a non-confrontational person most times, this is probably the approach I'd take. But I respect the OP for dealing with it right then and there and no one has the right to go off on anyone else to such a ridiculous extenr as that woman. I'm glad you and you're family are okay.


----------



## *~Danielle~* (Mar 27, 2005)

I think the last two posts particularly show some wisdom in this whole conversation. Thank you, ladies for your input. Your thoughts are especially discerning and show sense not just emotion.


----------



## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThinkBlu*
I consider myself to be pretty thoughtful and open minded, but when/if total strangers made comments about my parenting calling it "wrong", stating "mommies and daddies should not" (or should), "hate seeing in public"
or heaven forbid if they used the word "abuse" (think of all in the confines of extended breastfeeding), I honestly don't think I could 'hear' anything else. If this was abuse, by all means step in and get authorities involved, don't simply make remarks that IMO have NO CHANCE of being effective. If this was not abuse, recognize that different people have different parenting styles...it does not mean that they haven't thought about it, it doesn't mean they need to be educated (keep in mind there are many resources and esperts that can be sited for spanking) it means they have made different choices. In that case, turn your attention to that which is within your realm of influence, your family, and if you think they should not have the right to make the choices they have made, devote your attention and energy to changing the law so that they no longer have the choice to parent as they see fit.

Excellent post.


----------



## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Sheena, to clarify, it is not a question of whether you did anything wrong or right. Don't misunderstand.

You *chose* to place yourself in a potentially confrontational situation but was not ready to deal with the negative consequences that followed.


----------



## mamatoady (Mar 16, 2004)

Wooooowww, Before reading this and seeing all the replies, I thought,well,I won't bother replying because there are so many and mine would just get lost in it...however, AFTER reading your post, I retract my initial thought.

Holy crap! I can hardly believe the audacity of that family. Clearly, they are frustrated with their inability to control--I mean discipline their kids. It always amazes me when I see parents get angry at their babies for crying...most likely they just need to be held,comforted,removed...something really easy...but the parent wants to keep talking/eating/stay where they are regardless of how the babe is doing.

Especially in this case he should of reworded to the toddler "I'm going to beat the sh** out of you if you don't stop being sad and overwhelmed." eh?

I think how you handled it was absolutely great. You don't need to get into a debate/discussion/argument about something that they are not ready and willing to participate in. I think the lady, deep down will go home and feel guilty in many respects...probably not for her dh's actions against their child, but possibly for being so rude/disrespectful etc. to you and in a public place...how could that NOT humiliate her in the after-math.

My signature speaks to your nature








sarah


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

I want to clarify one more time that I was NOT speaking to the woman, I was speaking (in my normal dinner table voice) to my own children. The other mother may have been listening in but in no way was I directing my words towards her and nor did I intentionally "shame" her.

I keep getting the impression some posters feel I called her abusive to her face, I did not. Not until she started screaming at me... and even then I only said I feel spanking is abusive, I did not call her abusive.

If you were eavsdropping at my family's table there are tons of chances for you to be offended. From our left of left politics to our strong feelings on parenting... but it's not really my problem if you listen in and get offended.


----------



## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I have been following this thread....I do not think the OP deserved to be followed around the restaurant and verbally harassed and embarrassed. The mom in question obviously has issues and a great deal of guilt, why else would she continue to rant to anyone that listened? Her going off initially could have been a knee jerk reaction, and she should have left it at that.

Now the Christianity angle, to me is BS. Many many so called "Christians" use their so called Christianity to hide behind. Believe me I have in alws that would make you vomit.

Now my 18 yr old daughter got up and left Fridays because of parents smacking their toddler (she didn't know the exact age, she just said the kid had a binky and was in diapers). She said to me: Mom, ya know one smack maybe, but the were just so _mad_ that me an J**** got up and left. She said why take a baby out that late? She at 18, and my 15 yr old have gotten upset with other parents "thrashing" (my 15 yr olds word, not mine) their small child. Once, in Walmart (I know, I know!) a mom and dad were going off on their kid in the shampoo aisle. My daughter must have had one of her "looks" on her face, and the mom got enraged and said "mind your own business". My 15 yr old picked up our 7yr old and left the aisle.

People can be crazy, and when they are already upset and spanking a kid in public it can make them escalate.


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

Sheena, having been on the receiving end of the "I was just talking to the people at my table" form of criticism over NIP (see my post above), I think that's even more enraging and confrontational than a direct comment. If you were not whispering, then your actions show that you did not care if you were overheard. That's your perogative, and it's not wrong, but it certainly is aggravating to the object of your derision.


----------



## ThinkBlu (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie*
Sheena, having been on the receiving end of the "I was just talking to the people at my table" form of criticism over NIP (see my post above), I think that's even more enraging and confrontational than a direct comment. If you were not whispering, then your actions show that you did not care if you were overheard. That's your perogative, and it's not wrong, but it certainly is aggravating to the object of your derision.

I too have 'overheard private' conversations discussing my parenting choices and I absolutely agree with Smithie.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
The other mother may have been listening in but in no way was I directing my words towards her and nor did I intentionally "shame" her.......If you were eavsdropping at my family's table there are tons of chances for you to be offended. From our left of left politics to our strong feelings on parenting... but it's not really my problem if you listen in and get offended

Sheena, this situation was bizarre, no doubt about it. I don't profess to understand all the dynamics from a couple of printed paragraphs...I am sorry that you witnessed this. Given that. There is a difference in talking about something potentially offensive in public, truely not directed to the people within earshot, and in talking ABOUT someone or someone's actions within their earshot. As for intentionally or unintentionally shaming someone, the end result is the same...shame, and IMO shame is not something that should be imposed upon another, intentionally or not. The last thing I wanted to say-though it is probabaly off topic and more approipriate for another post, but I completely disagree with the "it's not really my problem" attitude. I think that it shows a lack of civility and it is precisely that attitude that is making our public interactions with people less neighborly, less supportive, less fulfilling, etc. Had the other family not had this attitude, this whole event likely would never have occured in a public place.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Smithie, I am sorry you have felt shamed for doing something healthy, natural and nurturing for another little person. I can't say that I could be "made" to feel that way. Please consider if you are giving away your power to others who have no ability to control your choices. I would nurse in the Oval Office, I would nurse on public TV, no matter the audience, there is no one who could say or imply or convince me in any way, shape or form that there is anything remotely negative about it.

I am just wanting to "reassure" you that other's opinions hold no power, unless you let them. I advocate *on behalf of* the child who is crying, not out of any desire to control or shame the parent's choices or actions. The difference is in the fact that the child is or isn't voicing dissent, not if the public is. The opinion of he who is affected by our actions matters. Not he who isn't.

Pat


----------



## Khadijah (Jul 19, 2005)

Hun dont let the women get you down. I also dont believe in spanking. That is abuse and believe me i know what that is cause i was badly abused as a child.. I dont think you should of stood up and voiced your opinion tho. You are not a bad parent, you do what you believe is right for your children and i know they are going to turn out fine.(Hugs)


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I'm normally a really "don't make the problem worse person...support the parent always (not necessarily their action but them)" BUT, at some point my dedication to my child trumps that. My kid seeing someone getting hit is one of those times. I would absolutely have to address that. Keeping this thread in mind if this ever should happen, I think we would probably just leave. Certainly don't want to aggravate a spanking parent.


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I wasn't shamed, Pat, I was PISSED. Big difference. If I'd been hitting my kid instead of nursing him, I imagine I would have been shamed in addition to being pissed. Although FWIW, I'd prefer your direct approach ("Stop! Stop hurting that child!") to the passive-aggressive approach. I really don't think passive aggression is an effective advocacy technique, although Lord knows I have been guilty of it myself.

I once glared at a woman who was DRAGGING her toddler up the stairs of the trolley in Philadelphia. She saw my expression, got pissed/shamed/whatever, and started handling her daughter even more roughly. I was absolutely in the right and she was absolutely in the wrong, but the little girl still took some extra knocks because I chose to antagonize her already-angry parent.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
Keeping this thread in mind if this ever should happen, I think we would probably just leave. Certainly don't want to aggravate a spanking parent.

if that is supposed to be sarcasm, i am plenty in favor of practical, positive aggravation like a trip to jail. not so much in favor of effectively useless aggravation that got nothing accomplished except traumatizing all the children who witnessed it. (yeah, her kids possibly heard someone criticize their parents. likely in all that chaos, if they processed it at all, they also heard a roomful of people vindicate their violent whackjob parents.)

spanking is legal there, ok. over-the-top abuse is NOT. i wish i could hear from some cps workers in texas; i'd like to hear their opinions. what you described, beating a small toddler repeatedly for overstimulation, then shrieking at, stalking and harassing the people at a neighboring table in front of them, would be considered abuse by any social worker i've ever met.

it is not defending the practice of spanking, to acknowledge realistically that not all people who use spanking as a form of discipline scream, beat,
or publicly abuse and belittle their children, and would also see this as child abuse. exactly what level of abuse would it take for one to witness in a spanking state to be worthy of calling 911? closed fist? oh, spanking is perfectly legal, why bother.







(see, i can be sarcastic to make a point, too.







)

beating my chest about how i'm not afraid of psychos, or great big scary men, is not going to protect their children or mine. whomever said less emotion, more thought, was on target. the goal is protecting children, not getting props from the gd forum, yes? i sent my







, it was obviously a horrible experience & i cannot say for certain what i would have done myself in the heat of the moment. but i think now that it is done, sharing ideas on how to accomplish that more effectively is very on topic.


----------



## Crunchier (Jun 26, 2003)

Ok, I read everything, and now it's my turn!

Sheena, I live in the deep south, though I am not from here. I have seen and heard many things that require explanations to my sensitive child. I think you did right to explain your kids, not confont the psychopath, etc. I would DEFINITELY called security if the psychopath started flipping out on me.

I'd like to make a point to other posters. I have lived in a bunch of places in the US. There are vast differences in the cultural norms in different areas. In the south, spanking is commonly held to NOT be at all related to abuse, but rather to be an absolute necessity in child rearing. I have heard many more moms tell me that they know they should spank more than they do, than that they know they shouldn't spank. NOT spanking is seen as neglect. It isn't seen as a last resort of parenting, or even as an acceptable method of discipline, but rather as the mark of GOOD parenting. Calling the police would not have discouraged the spankers, but would more likely have ended in praise for their excellent parenting, and wishes that more parents would step up in such a manner. That is if anyone had even come to check it out, which I sincerely doubt.

Because we live in this kind of an area, and perhaps because I myself do not judge spanking parents so harshly (I don't think that everyone who swats an occasional behind is a horrible, evil child abuser, but perhaps just not so enlightened), and I believe that you get more flies with honey, I try to explain things with a little more compassion for the parents. I usually say something like, "Some mommies and daddies spank their kids when they are mad, but we don't because we there better ways to teach kids to be right." Or something like that. I try to put the emphasis on the do and not the don't and to explain that while their intentions may be decent, the actions are not. Also that the spanking is about he spanker and not the child. Mommies and daddies spank because they get mad, not because the kids are naughty.

Please do not think that I am supporting spanking. I don't spank, though I have in the past. I was raised by loving parents who were big into physical punishment (and still are). They were educated and well researched and came to a very different conclusion than I have. They are not evil ppl, they just made some bad parenting choices. I believe that spanking is ineffective at best and damaging at worst. Child abuse is inexcusable and unforgivable. Please don't misunderstand me on this.

I do think that there are helpful and unhelpful methods of advocacy. The strongest and most forthright message is not always the one that gets heard. You have to take your audience into account and give them the message that is most effective for them at the moment. Too strong of a message makes ppl defensive and has a reinforcing effect on the behavior we wish to change. I think tact is something that cannot be undervalued.


----------



## Crunchier (Jun 26, 2003)

I have an innocent question.









For those who said that this was NOT spanking, but crossed the line into abuse, could you clarify? I understand those who say that any violence against a child is abuse, but for those of you who made a distinction, what is that distinction based on?

I've heard that it's spanking if it is done with an open hand and not an implement. I've heard that it's spanking if it is on the buttocks and does not leave a mark, even if it is done with an implement. This incident qualifies as spanking by both those definitions.

Again, please understand that I'm not saying that spanking is ok, however mild, just looking for clarification.


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

If the OP were to have whispered to her children rather than just spoke normally, I think this probably would have drawn more attention to the woman. Esp because the woman was feeling guilty. The only thing that the OP could have done would be to leave the table to speak to her kids, but then again, why should she have? She didn't do anything wrong. Either way the woman shouldn't have been eavesdropping on someone else's conversation at all.


----------



## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
She said that if more kids got spanked our country wouldn't be like it is.

I've had a mom say this to me before (I think I may have mentioned here somewhere). It wasn't an attack against me, just casual conversation. But it pretty much ended the conversation. Her son was slapping another boy at the playground, and she called her son over and threatened to spank him Then she said "I wish I could spank him in public" and I said "Yeah but I think a lot of people dont like to see that" and she replied "I don't know why, the reason there are so many people in our jails is because their parents didn't spank them enough".







Well, I don't know where she got that idea! IMO, it's the exact opposite that is often true! He was HITTING another child and she wonders where he learned it, when she was close to HITTING him in punishment.







Well, I don't see the connection between child abuse and staying _out_ of prison at all.


----------



## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

Let me get this straight. Unintentionally shaming a woman who was eavesdropping on your table conversation -- wrong. Shaming your toddler by repeatedly spanking him in public -- okay. See, I was confused. I thought this was MDC.

Jeesh.







:

Frankly, I'm surprized that so many people are seeing Sheena as in the wrong here. Even if one is pro-spanking, when did spanking and humiliating your child in public become okay. I think we are forgetting that even if one is a "responsible" spanker (and I use that term in the Dr. Sears spanking rules) there is never an excuse for public spanking and humiliation of a child. This man was not disciplining his child by "spanking" him, he was hitting his child out of his own frustration. That is what carries it beyond discipline makes it abusive -- even spankers should see that. It was not discipline, it was a parents frustration gone out of control on his child.

Again Sheena, I'm right behind you and think you did the right thing for your family. I can't believe some of the responses you are getting. I hope you stop feeling like you need to defend yourself to some of the posters here. They clearly are on a different wavelength.


----------



## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
If the OP were to have whispered to her children rather than just spoke normally, I think this probably would have drawn more attention to the woman.

hmm, but if the OP *had* whispered, the spanking mom couldn't have proved she and the spanking dad were the subjects of their conversation and therefore would have gone about her way without confrontation.


----------



## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:

Again Sheena, I'm right behind you and think you did the right thing for your family. I can't believe some of the responses you are getting. I hope you stop feeling like you need to defend yourself to some of the posters here. They clearly are on a different wavelength.
ITA and I wasn't suprised at all to see the different replies and even the switching of blame to the OP. IT's happened to me as well.







We do our best, I suppose. From what I gathered from the OP, she wasn't raising her voice to shame the woman, she was using it as a learning opportunity for her children- teaching them the values she as their mother would have them uphold.







: Good job, Sheena.


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jish*
Let me get this straight. Unintentionally shaming a woman who was eavesdropping on your table conversation -- wrong. Shaming your toddler by repeatedly spanking him in public -- okay. See, I was confused. I thought this was MDC.

Jeesh.







:

Frankly, I'm surprized that so many people are seeing Sheena as in the wrong here. Even if one is pro-spanking, when did spanking and humiliating your child in public become okay. I think we are forgetting that even if one is a "responsible" spanker (and I use that term in the Dr. Sears spanking rules) there is never an excuse for public spanking and humiliation of a child. This man was not disciplining his child by "spanking" him, he was hitting his child out of his own frustration. That is what carries it beyond discipline makes it abusive -- even spankers should see that. It was not discipline, it was a parents frustration gone out of control on his child.

Again Sheena, I'm right behind you and think you did the right thing for your family. I can't believe some of the responses you are getting. I hope you stop feeling like you need to defend yourself to some of the posters here. They clearly are on a different wavelength.









Very well said


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Does Dr. Sears have a "responsible" spanking rule???? If so I am going to drop over from stress.

Pat


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Am I going to have to pick Pat up off the floor







? Though he doesn't _advocate_ spanking, he does have a chapter in the Discipline Book about it and here on his website, guidelines toward the bottom of the page.

Interestingly, I received a magazine in the mail today that had an excerpt from Barbara Coloroso's book Bullies, Victims, and Bystanders: How Parents Can Help Break the Cycle of Violence. The website is here

In it, Barbara says, ""...we can transform the role of the bystander into that of a witness, someone willing to stand up, speak out, and act against injustice."

Food for thought


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I haven't read the whole thread, but I wanted to say that I'm so glad you said something to your children when that happened. It much have been scary and confusing for them to have to watch and it wouldn't have been right for you to not address it right away.


----------



## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

Even if one is pro-spanking, when did spanking and humiliating your child in public become okay. I think we are forgetting that even if one is a "responsible" spanker (and I use that term in the Dr. Sears spanking rules) there is never an excuse for public spanking and humiliation of a child. This man was not disciplining his child by "spanking" him, he was hitting his child out of his own frustration. That is what carries it beyond discipline makes it abusive -- even spankers should see that. It was not discipline, it was a parents frustration gone out of control on his child.
_Exactly._


----------



## Niamh (Jan 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy*
hmm, but if the OP *had* whispered, the spanking mom couldn't have proved she and the spanking dad were the subjects of their conversation and therefore would have gone about her way without confrontation.

And the last thing any of us here on MDC want is confrontation. The last thing we want is for those in the "mainstream" to rethink their views. If I had been in this situation, the most I would have expected _had_ the abuser's wife overheard me would have been a "MYOB" or complete dismissal. Not psycho behavior. Confrontation? Not really expected in this specific situation.

Whispering to her kids would have taught them that, while she believed a certain thing, it was a belief that she was either embarrassed about or was one that caused her fear (of confrontation by psychos, etc).

Raising her voice when explaining to her kids would have taught them passive-aggressive behavior.

Sheena handled it well. Very well.

Although I personally would have called management after she harassed me for longer than a few minutes. I don't have time for that sh** in my life.

After reading posts here, in the future I will probably handle it in Scubamama's fashion.


----------



## geekmediainc (Sep 26, 2005)

Excellent that you stood up for your beliefs. I promise you that your older child will never forget what happened yesterday and how strong you were.

I got stressed just reading your post, excellent job Momma.


----------



## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Why in the world does whispering imply either fear or embarassment?
I have always thought it implied only discretion.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

And the last thing any of us here on MDC want is confrontation.
Has anyone been in the News and Current Events forum lately?









Niamh, would you be willing to explain in further detail what you meant when you wrote:

Quote:

The last thing we want is for those in the "mainstream" to rethink their views.
Not sure in what context you meant this statement? I'm confused







Right now, I can't think of anything I _wouldn't_ love to see be rethought by the mainstream


----------



## Niamh (Jan 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
Has anyone been in the News and Current Events forum lately?









Niamh, would you be willing to explain in further detail what you meant when you wrote:

Not sure in what context you meant this statement? I'm confused







Right now, I can't think of anything I _wouldn't_ love to see be rethought by the mainstream









I was being sarcastic. I'm sorry that wasn't clear. The rest of my post was not sarcastic. Call it a dry humor that doesn't come across the web very well.


----------



## Niamh (Jan 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Why in the world does whispering imply either fear or embarassment?
I have always thought it implied only discretion.

I should have said "For me, personally, whispering to my child would imply that I was fearful of being overheard or embarrassed of my views." There, now. Is that bland enough?

But really, you don't think kids pick up on social cues? There are times and reasons for whispering. Even 2 year olds know this. I think that when you're discussing ways in which you think the world should work (parents not hitting their kids) a child could pick up on the cue (lowering your voice, leaning forward) as much as they pick up on the message. They could easily come away with the whole message being "We don't like adults who hit their kids, but we don't say anything out loud. After all, we don't want to hurt the feelings of the person who's physically hurting the child."


----------



## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

I will never whisper to my children that spanking is wrong. I will never express my concerns in a less than obvious manner...i think its child abuse. period. i don't understand why i should need to take into consideration an adult's feelings or "rights" when he/she is obviously not taking into consideration the child's feelings/rights.
but, thats just me and like some others here...i guess i am a bit more outspoken. but then again, the Margaret Mead quote in my siggy expresses my feelings re: advocacy.
i admire the OP and truly believe she did the right thing (other than allow herself to be subjected to that hostile woman's harassment..i would have reported her immediately to the management..and the dad).
rach


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Niamh*
I should have said "For me, personally, whispering to my child would imply that I was fearful of being overheard or embarrassed of my views." There, now. Is that bland enough?

Same here.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

:

Please realize this woman has serious issues which have nothing to do w/you. Hug your kids and be grateful they're not in an abusive family.


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"Let me get this straight. Unintentionally shaming a woman who was eavesdropping on your table conversation -- wrong. Shaming your toddler by repeatedly spanking him in public -- okay."

NOBODY has said this. There are just several of us who insist on acknowleging the reality that a confrontation with an already-violent parent might well result in the child experiencing more violence. If anybody (not just Sheena, we'll all face this at some point) chooses not to use discretion when explaining a violent situation to their own kids, then I think it's important to own the possible consequences of that decision. It's not you vs. Spanking Mom (or Dad). It's you vs. them with their kid right square in the middle, very possibly taking the abuse that you are legally protected from.


----------



## Kira's mom (Nov 30, 2004)

Sheena- i just want to say again...I'd probably have done the same. still it is upsetting to you i am sure. By now i hope you've recovered.Sometimes i hesitate to post here because words on a page don't always sound the way we mean them to. I hope you don't feel attacked or the need to defend yourself. This is a place we come (I do) for support and strength from people that feel the same about alot of parenting issues.i hope you feel better and that you've gotten the support you needed regarding your post. blessings, Hali


----------



## ThinkBlu (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jish*
Shaming your toddler by repeatedly spanking him in public -- okay...Even if one is pro-spanking, when did spanking and humiliating your child in public become okay.

I hope I didn't give this impression. I think it goes without saying that it not "okay". FWIW, although I haven't read all the repies, I haven't read any that I would deem pro-spanking.

Quote:

This man was not disciplining his child by "spanking" him, he was hitting his child out of his own frustration....even spankers should see that. It was not discipline, it was a parents frustration gone out of control on his child.
I am not a spanker, and I disagree with your assessment (based only on this thread) that this was anything other than an attempt at discipline.

Quote:

I hope you stop feeling like you need to defend yourself to some of the posters here. They clearly are on a different wavelength.
I too hope that Sheena feels no need to defend herself. Its easy for the rest of us to sit here at our PC's, looking back with 20/20 vision from the comfort of our own lives stating 'what Sheena should have done', it's different when in the heat of the moment. If Sheena (and other posters completing agreeing with her) were only coming here looking for affirmation, I'm sorry I posted, but given the overall quality and depth of this post, I'm glad I was able to contribute. Granted that different posters are on different wavelengths, that's what has brought me to this board, hopefully others find benefit too. I think it's great that we can have respectful dialogue, not always in agreement, possibly see a different perspective, possibly learn something, taking what we see as useful and leaving the rest behind.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OP*
Anyway, we were in the dining area, a HUGE room full of families when a family with two kids about the ages of mine sat behind us. Their *toddler was a baby-toddler, maybe 18-20 months old* and a 6-8 year old son. The toddler was having a melt-down, not surprising in a place with SO much going on.

The dad says loudly, "_If you don't stop crying I'm going to spank you_."

Dh and I exchange glances and my own son (6.5) starts looking nervous. He is super sensitive to other kid's feelings and gets upset if he sees a spanking.

The baby's dad then *proceeds to whack the crap out of him*. He was holding him in his arms, the baby laying sideways and he hit him 3 or 4 times in front of my kids. We're talking a 6'4" 200 pound grown man *beating a 20 pound toddler*. Right in front of my kids.


Quote:

I am not a spanker, and I disagree with your assessment (based only on this thread) that this was anything other than an attempt at discipline.
*Unbelievable*.

Would it be "discipline" if it were an employee? A wife? A tired and cranky old lady? A nursing home patient? An older child?

Pat (I need a falling over icon.)


----------



## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
Thank you, I have been feeling like crap.

I said it like I would normally speak. I didn't speak up but nor did I whisper. I feel like whispering would have made it seem like I was in the wrong and needed to whisper my opinion, KWIM?

Thank you all for reading and responding.

Blerg.

You did the right thing. To me the fact that she followed you around, and continued to verbally attack you while asking other bystanders to agree with her show me that
1) you had an impact and she DOES question whether spanking is wrong
and she can't STAND the fact that you (rightly) made her feel guillty

2)she IS abusive (obviously) since she ranted and raved and verbally attacked you and your dc (that kind of yelling is an attack on everyone in the room.)

I am so, so sorry that you were subject to her abuse and that the other people there made you question yourself.

So sorry.

As another poster wrote above

Quote:

She reacted like someone who felt guilty.


----------



## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

I also think there is a difference between spanking a diapered butt and backhanding your wife.
Yes. The wife can call 911.

Quote:

The more I think about it the more I wonder if she might be an abused woman. Or at least a woman living in fear of her own spouse. It was such an over the top reaction I wonder if it was some kind of defense mechanism. You know, like maybe if she defended him she wouldn't be getting her own whooping later. I don't know, maybe that is a stretch.
Yes, I think you are probably right! If she spanks she was probably spanked, that is, abused. And perhaps her partner is part of the dynamic as well. All perceptive thoughts in my opinion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9*
So if the toddler had just been spanked, I am guessing she was crying and probably not quietly.

That means that you were talking loud enough to be heard over the commotion. In other words, you were antagonizing them and it worked.

Too me, an adult antagonizing strangers in public for the benefit of "proving" themself to be the better person or parent (whichever the case may be) is no better than spanking a toddler. So, I think neither of you were right. Sorry.

Maggie

On the contrary, she felt it was her moral obligation to speak out against the violence and I applaud her.


----------



## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

duplicate post


----------



## ThinkBlu (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
*Unbelievable*.

Given only the parts that you pulled it, yes I agree it is DISCRIBED as abuse. However, when you add...

Quote:

Originally Posted by *OP*
_I told her I agreed but that I feel spanking is abuse...Then someone stood up and said she agreed!...So, basically I was in public...in a room full of people who agree with her...in front of my own kids...I did judge her, I think spanking is abuse and I would have felt bad had I let my 2 and 6 year old see a dad beat his toddler and not said anything. I just keep hoping that even though it turned SO ugly maybe she went home and today she has thought for even a split second about the people out there who get by without violence. Dh says no, that she just hates me and will still beat her babies._
I think an obvious bias shows through. The original post IMO uses the words spanking and abuse as interchangeable and holds a very low threshhold for using words such as abuse, violence, and beat. Given that there were "a room full of people who agree with her ", I don't think that Sheena has demonstrated that this incident reaches the level of abuse. However, *IF IT WERE ABUSE* I stand by my stance that authorities should have been involved as the approach that was used was ineffective.

As for

Quote:

Would it be "discipline" if it were an employee? A wife? A tired and cranky old lady? A nursing home patient? An older child?
Keep in mind that I said I thought it was an ATTEMPT at discipline. I do not think spanking is effective or necessary. I do not nor have I ever practiced spanking and my preference is that others do not either, but that is where it stops. If I witness a stranger spanking, I may be saddened, but recognize that parents right to make different parenting choices. If I see abuse, I will take action. I think the logic that spanking=abuse is the same as the logic that food=nutrition.

I get really frustrated by people who equate illegal activities with legal, even 'mainstream' ones. Granted, it is your right to disagree with the legality of spanking, if so, work to change its legal status! In the event that you disagree with gambling, I doubt that you would see it as effective to critize strangers you saw purchasing a lottery ticket on a case by case basis, why would critizing strangers praticing different parenting choices from yours be any different? If strangers criticized your parenting philosophy, would that help 'enlighten' you? Again, if this was an illegal act, take action, don't simply state opposition.


----------



## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

However, IF IT WERE ABUSE I stand by my stance that authorities should have been involved as the approach that was used was ineffective.
It was abuse, but culturally and legally that abuse is permitted in that state, which complicates things.

That is an intriguing idea though. What if every time a child were spanked, the police were called. That would just annoy the police wouldn't it? But it could be a very compelling and creative form of civil disobediance/protest that might lead to a cultural understanding that spanking is abuse.

I wonder how the laws forbidding spanking in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Croatia, Cyprus, Latvia, Italy, Israel, Germany and Austria came about.
http://www.naturalchild.com/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html

Hmmmmmm.


----------



## babykaoss (Nov 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtwice*
It was abuse, but culturally and legally that abuse is permitted in that state, which complicates things.

That is an intriguing idea though. What if every time a child were spanked, the police were called. That would just annoy the police wouldn't it? But it could be a very compelling and creative form of civil disobediance/protest that might lead to a cultural understanding that spanking is abuse.

I wonder how the laws forbidding spanking in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Croatia, Cyprus, Latvia, Italy, Israel, Germany and Austria came about.
http://www.naturalchild.com/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html

Hmmmmmm.

thank you SO much for that link!!!


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I have a Swedish online-friend who says that the laws came about because people in government listened to child psychologists and Swedish child psychologists took took the initial anti-spanking studies seriously. She says that older Swedes will still advocate/support spanking, but younger Swedes generally do not, and that a public spanking would means the cops got called (although a parent would not lose custody for one incident of spanking, there would just be intervention and maybe (gasp!) HELP for the family).


----------



## immortal ambition (Jul 17, 2005)

"I was absolutely in the right and she was absolutely in the wrong, but the little girl still took some extra knocks because I chose to antagonize her already-angry parent."

I agree with this. I have seen it before. When a parent is already out of control the worst thing to do is to provoke them as usually the children end up paying for it, so in trying to prevent something it is actually made worse.


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

I agree too... I would never *intentionally* antagonize an angry parent.


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:

I think an obvious bias shows through. The original post IMO uses the words spanking and abuse as interchangeable and holds a very low threshhold for using words such as abuse, violence, and beat. Given that there were "a room full of people who agree with her ", I don't think that Sheena has demonstrated that this incident reaches the level of abuse. However, IF IT WERE ABUSE I stand by my stance that authorities should have been involved as the approach that was used was ineffective.
Well, I guess that depends on your definition of abuse, doesn't it? Personally, I don't give a rat's patootie what is legal or not legal IMNSHO hitting anyone (a child, an adult, a dog) is abuse and I calls it like I sees it.

And such that it fell within my definition of abuse but not the state's calling the police would have done exactly ZERO good...as has been mentioned in this thread already.


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

Sheena, I did not INTENTIONALLY antagonize the woman who was dragging her toddler. It was a crowded subway car. She just happened to see the expression on my face.

I chose to express myself in a way that she might pick up on. The little girl suffered for it. I am responsible for my action and its consequences, and my reaction to public displays of violence against children has been informed by that experience.


----------



## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

As much as I think spanking is abuse, I agree that confronting a parent often has the opposite effect. When I taught preschool, I never commented on behavior to spanking parents. If they asked, "How was his day?" I would say "great" even if the child hit everyone in the room. I just couldn't sleep at night thinking I had caused a spanking. Unfortunately, trying to educate many spanking parents is a waste of time. They think we are the crazy ones.


----------



## Monkeyfeet (Feb 5, 2005)

Sheena,
What a horrible thing to have to witness. Hugs to you. I wouldn't have been able to eat afterwards. I would have done exactly what you did and I probably would have gotten the management involved. I was reading a thread on here a few days ago and this link was in it
Spanking link
I really liked this part on speaking to management,
"Find a manager or supervisor and say something like, "Please speak to the woman in the red coat. She is hitting her child." If the employee refuses to intervene, claiming that how a parent disciplines his or her child is not their business, ask if he or she would show a similar lack of concern if one adult were assaulting another, or if the child were being assaulted by a stranger. Also, ask about their policies regarding workplace violence. Tell the employee that if he or she does not take appropriate steps to protect the child, you will be contacting the president of the business, as well as the local media."

Again, hugs. I know when I have seen violent acts towards children, the memory kind of burns itself into my head and I keep seeing it over and over.


----------



## ThinkBlu (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtwice*
It was abuse

By YOUR definition?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
Well, I guess that depends on your definition of abuse, doesn't it? Personally, I don't give a rat's patootie what is legal or not legal IMNSHO hitting anyone (a child, an adult, a dog) is abuse and I calls it like I sees it.

And such that it fell within my definition of abuse but not the state's calling the police would have done exactly ZERO good...as has been mentioned in this thread already.

Exactly. Different definitions obviously exist. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but do you think the situation as it evolved did any good? I know that you stated that your intent was only toward your family, not toward anyone else, but now in hindsite, if you had it to do again, would you do it the same?

I don't want to keep repeating myself, I'm sure it's getting old, but IMO your response also did ZERO good and actually did harm, though granted not intentionally, but I'm kinda a "first do no harm" kinda gal. I think that if you have a problem with public opinion, public policy or the law regarding spanking that you have the right *and the responsibility* to work to change that. I think it goes without saying that we are very different people (i.e., your statement that you don't give a rat's patootie as well as a previous comment about something not being your problem show extreme differences between us), and it doesn't surprise me that we have very different views dispite that fact that we both feel strongly again spanking. I respect that you are doing what you feel is right, and I have no doubt that you have your families best interest at heart and that goes a looooong way to speaking to your character.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Monkeyfeet*
I really liked this part on speaking to management,
"Find a manager or supervisor and say something like, "Please speak to the woman in the red coat. She is hitting her child." If the employee refuses to intervene, claiming that how a parent disciplines his or her child is not their business, ask if he or she would show a similar lack of concern if one adult were assaulting another, or if the child were being assaulted by a stranger. Also, ask about their policies regarding workplace violence. Tell the employee that if he or she does not take appropriate steps to protect the child, you will be contacting the president of the business, as well as the local media."

FYI - I'm quoting myself, but FWIW...
DH and I both come from a retail background, and the idea about invoking management wouldn't have worked at any of the(five) places at which we worked. Many (most, I think) retail establishments train managers what to do in situations such as customer complaints about nursing in public (allow person filing the complaint to vent and be heard, but take no action), customer complaints about parental interactions with children (more complex, but generally in situations involving differing opinions on discipline, give the benefit of the doubt to the parent and allow the person filing the complain to be heard and to vent but don't take action unless the safety of the child is in question-per judgement of management...if deemed the child is not in danger and the complaintent makes threats, offer phone access (public if possible, i.e., a pay phone) to the complaintent so that they can voice their complaint to the authorities) Retail places receive a ton of 'threats' from customers stating they will take their compaint to the next level or invoke the media...employees even at the highest ranks of in-store personel are versed on store policy and generally do not have the authority to deviate from it.

Well ladies, I think I have said all that I am going to say on this topic as it seems to be going around and around, and I'm finding myself seeing some of you as the antogonist, definately not the way it should be. It is obviously a heated topic, and I can certainly understand why, given that our most precious and volunerable children lie at the center. If I saw all spanking as abuse, I'm sure my world would be a little sadder and I'm sure my passions would tend to flair on the topic. Perhaps I come from a unique perspective in that I come from spanking parents who were as loving and as non-violent as they come. Going forward, unless someone specifically posts a question to my attention, consider my involvement in this thread to be over. Best wishes to you all and Happy New Year.


----------



## sabrinat (Jul 21, 2005)

I might get flamed for this, but....I don't agree with spanking at all. But. I also don't agree that you should have commented at that time on it. If the situation was as you described it appears to me that those were people that didn't deal well with stressful situation (case in point...whaling on a toddler for being a toddler) Adding a bit of kerosene by making a judgment on what they were doing was not the best course of action you could have taken. I myself get so annoyed by the same type of thing. When people say things not really at you, but about you, but loud enough for you to hear. What is that!!! You could have spoken to your children later and said something like "Remember what happened at dinner..."
Just my opinion


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

My goal is for _the child's voice_ of dissent to be validated by another adult human being. And for the child to hear his voice of dissent validated by a humane being. My voice may honor his internal voice all of his life. That core which *knows* that hitting him is wrong according to *himself*. Because his dissent matters.

Pat


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:

I think it goes without saying that we are very different people (i.e., your statement that you don't give a rat's patootie as well as a previous comment about something not being your problem show extreme differences between us), and it doesn't surprise me that we have very different views dispite that fact that we both feel strongly again spanking.
You misinterpret my statement here. I didn't mean that I don't care that spanking is illegal; I meant I don't let what is legal or illegal decide morality for me.

I don't care for the slightly disguised insult in your post. I'm not 100% sure what you're implying but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that you have no idea what my activism WRT to parenting or anything else has been.

We do have very different views... but not in the way you have assumed.


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sabrinat*
I might get flamed for this, but....I don't agree with spanking at all. But. I also don't agree that you should have commented at that time on it. If the situation was as you described it appears to me that those were people that didn't deal well with stressful situation (case in point...whaling on a toddler for being a toddler) Adding a bit of kerosene by making a judgment on what they were doing was not the best course of action you could have taken. I myself get so annoyed by the same type of thing. When people say things not really at you, but about you, but loud enough for you to hear. What is that!!! You could have spoken to your children later and said something like "Remember what happened at dinner..."
Just my opinion

Right... but one of my kids is two. Plus, to have waited and done it in secret would have only taught my children to speak up but only in the comfort of your own home.

God, frankly, I wish I had never brough this up. You can say pretty much anything here and someone will turn it around on you 8 ways til sunday. The last thing I envisioned at the GD board was defending my actions to defend my own children.


----------



## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I cant believe anyone is arguing that hitting a child is not a abuse. It doesnt matter if it was once, twice or 15.. its abuse regardless. Hitting ANYONE is abuse, its not ok because they are too small to defend themselves







How disturbing to read this here of all places.


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

LOL, I KNOW! I feel














after this thread. I wish it would die die die....


----------



## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
Right... but one of my kids is two. Plus, to have waited and done it in secret would have only taught my children to speak up but only in the comfort of your own home.

God, frankly, I wish I had never brough this up. You can say pretty much anything here and someone will turn it around on you 8 ways til sunday. The last thing I envisioned at the GD board was defending my actions to defend my own children.

You absoultely should not have to wait til you are home or whisper to explain to your children that hitting is wrong. That would imply its something wrong that no one should talk about.







mama you did the right thing.


----------



## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
I'm in Texas where they actually passed a resolution last year clarifying that spanking IS legal.









You know, your story actually makes more sense now. Texas.

I had a friend and neighbor when I lived in Israel who grew up in Texas. She had all kinds of whacked ideas about 'normal' parenting (formula, bottle propping, smacking your kid if they 'sassed', even told about how she got paddled in HIGH SCHOOL!!!). It became kind of a joke between another mom and I who were more natural/GD leaning. Whenever she would start with one of her parenting gems we would just look at one another, roll our eyes and say 'Texas!'


----------



## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
I cant believe anyone is arguing that hitting a child is not a abuse. It doesnt matter if it was once, twice or 15.. its abuse regardless. Hitting ANYONE is abuse, its not ok because they are too small to defend themselves







How disturbing to read this here of all places.









s

panking IS abuse even if it IS a discipline choice, even if it is common, even if it is illegal. The law is wrong, the citizenship is wrong, it's just wrong....

Sheena was right and had every right to explain to her children then and there..I have a 2 year old and no way I wouldn't have explained on the spot and abusive parents be damned if they overheard.

A mama who is anti-spanking who is verbally abused because she explained her stance to her own children should be able to come here of all places for support without having to explain herself.

Just because she didn't do exactly what you or I would have done(I would have turned on harrassing mama and called her on her highschool behaviour) doesn't mean what she did do was wrong in any way.

There is no way to stop people from spanking their children if those of us who know in our hearts it's abusive and wrong don't speak up. Maybe it's teh child that will break the cycle by learning that there is another way and their children will not be spanked because they learned that. That it's not the only way or the right way to raise children.

People have different comfort levels when it comes to confrontation...I am a "bring it" kind of person, others are more subtle and quiet. We do what works in our lives. Sheena did right even though she did different from me. She has my support. I am sorry you had to deal with this Sheena but you know you did your best in the situation you were in...I wish you had gotten 100% support here...you deserve it.


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I am a "bring it" kind of person too, but only when I'm the only possible target for vengeance...

Sheena wrote:

"The last thing I envisioned at the GD board was defending my actions to defend my own children."

When you choose to defend your own children's emotional welfare in a manner that further endangers another child's physical welfare, then you certainly shouldn't expect hugs and cuddles for it on MDC or anywhere else. I think those of us with more/different experiences dealing with these situation have been pretty darn gentle with you so far, understanding that it was a really tough situation that you were not prepared for.

Pat: I can support the idea of being a "child's voice of dissent," but taking on a violent, angry parent when the kid is too young to understand what you are saying? I'm not saying it's never right to confront a spanker, just that there are some situations where no possible good can come of it, and that part of advocating for children is recognizing that your actions can backfire.

I don't think you recognize that, Sheena. I don't think you've really taken to heart the fact that that baby may have paid for your words later on. I want you to acknowledge that, and let it inform your future actions.


----------



## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie*
When you choose to defend your own children's emotional welfare in a manner that further endangers another child's physical welfare, then you certainly shouldn't expect hugs and cuddles for it on MDC or anywhere else. I think those of us with more/different experiences dealing with these situation have been pretty darn gentle with you so far, understanding that it was a really tough situation that you were not prepared for.









I think the OP made it pretty clear she didn't confront the mother in question. Her parenting her own children in a way she sees fit endangers this other child how?


----------



## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2seven*







I think the OP made it pretty clear she didn't confront the mother in question. Her parenting her own children in a way she sees fit endangers this other child how?











I can see where stepping in could wind up in a child getting hurt further but she didn't confront the abusive parents,she merely explained things to her own children..good thing to as far as Iam concerned. Also...the only thing I would have donedifferently would have been to confront the mom about harrassing me...called her on it. Maybe my way would have caused her to be angrier and after having a bad day go home and take it out further on the child but it's really hard to determine that...it would depend on if she's a violent person herself or if she is scared of her husband and trying to defend his methods to justify her fear of standing up to him and not protecting her child. I don't think what Sheena did would further endanger the child. She made the mom angrier but the mom wasn't the spanker.

I still feel you have to take a stand against hitting children in the name of discipline in order to stop it.


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

Oh, what a load of hooey. I never speak about the people AT THE NEXT TABLE unless I'm willing to accept the possibility of being overheard. I doubt anybody else here does either. What a cop-out.


----------



## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie*
Oh, what a load of hooey. I never speak about the people AT THE NEXT TABLE unless I'm willing to accept the possibility of being overheard. I doubt anybody else here does either. What a cop-out.

O-kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. Moving right along.


----------



## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie*
Oh, what a load of hooey. I never speak about the people AT THE NEXT TABLE unless I'm willing to accept the possibility of being overheard. I doubt anybody else here does either. What a cop-out.


Not sure what you mean by this exactly or what you are referring to but I think the OP did probably know there might be consequences(sorry to speak for you OP, correct me if I am wrong) though she didn't expect them to be so extreme. I think she was just venting to us about it. I think she was more disturbed that people were supporting spanking and that it's so prevalent that everyone in the place was pro-spanking...That was very disturbing about this incident.

Isn't that really what is disturbing about the OP..the fact that spanking was so acceptable and she was the lone voice of dissent.

It's really really sad...I dont' really think that the dad went home and spanked teh kid more because of this...because they think they were proven right.

However if a bunch of people had stood up and supported the OP against the spankers then I would be concerned that teh parents would take their anger out on the kids later in private. In this case the spankers were supported and thus probably actually feel better about their choice to spank than before.

and that really really saddens me


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

Right along to what? The part where outcomes don't matter, as long as our ideology is upheld, in public, at the exact moment of the offense, in a "normal tone of voice?"

I understand that Sheena wanted support after having a negative experience, and I can empathize with that. But really, her experience PALES in comparison to that child's experience, and I think it's appropriate for us all to to think about what we would do in a similar situation to ENSURE that our actions don't garner a kid an extra smack for good measure. I would hate it if my son were upset when he witnessed a public spanking. I'd hate it even more if a conversation we had about it within earshot resulted in the situation being escalated.


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

You may be right, allgirls. I hope so.


----------



## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie*
You may be right, allgirls. I hope so.


me too


----------



## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Does Dr. Sears have a "responsible" spanking rule???? If so I am going to drop over from stress.

Pat

Scubamama, not really,; it's complicated. I have an article in one of my motherings I can PM you if you'd like.

~Nay


----------



## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Niamh*
I was being sarcastic. I'm sorry that wasn't clear. The rest of my post was not sarcastic. Call it a dry humor that doesn't come across the web very well.

I got it









~Nay


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I though Dr. Sears took this tactic: "I don't support it, but if you are bound and determined to do it, here's some of the things that are MOST harmful about spanking, so try and avoid these particular scenarios."


----------



## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

I completely disagree that Sheena should be held accountable for another person's bad actions. She did not deliberately stir up trouble. She did not try to antagonize the woman. She made a rational comment to her own children that was unfortunately overheard by someone that escalated things of her own accord. It's not like she was doing the "stage whisper," hoping to be overheard, hoping to opinionate on the topic. She did the RIGHT thing, by educating her children that this was a wrong act. Should she be expected to censor every remark she ever makes because someone might overhear and react bizarrely to it? If sadly, that child was hit again because of the parents' embarrassment, I would argue that she was not responsible for it, and that for every child that is hit more after a comment, there are at least as many if not more that are hit more for lack of such a comment or intervention. Heavens, there are some reports of domestic abusers abusing more after the abused woman attempts to leave -- should we condemn all those terrible people who operate shelters for these women to come to??? Should the people whose peaceful protests led to violent retaliations be held responsible for those acts of violence? And this is coming from a Republican!!!

It's quite one thing to say to Sheena, well, what do you expect? in a sympathetic tone. To say that unfortunately in today's society, there are psycho people who hit their kids and think it's right and who are abusive to people who call this into question. Empathizing with the fact that it is hard to shield your kids from it, to reassure them without fearing the ramifications, and to make positive changes in society.

But to say this to her accusatorally, to suggest that she was in the wrong for doing it (versus just naive or unprepared for what ended up happening) IMO is casting blame on the wrong person.

Part of why this angers me is that as a doctor, one of the things that has been drilled into me is that we don't tell patients often enough the things we think they will be unreceptive to (e.g. you need to lose weight, you need to stop smoking, you need to stop driving while intoxicated without a seatbelt, etc.) I'm at the hospital right now on call, and earlier had a three year old intubated with major injuries because her mother didn't have her in a carseat. I would be negligent NOT telling her mother that that was an incredibly wrong thing to do. Sheena wasn't even going that far. She was just talking with her own family, in a public place, yes, but that still did not justify that woman's reaction to her.

Sheena, I give you a







for not allowing your kids to at all unsure of how you stand and







for the unfortunate consequences.


----------



## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2seven*
You know, your story actually makes more sense now. Texas.

I had a friend and neighbor when I lived in Israel who grew up in Texas. She had all kinds of whacked ideas about 'normal' parenting (formula, bottle propping, smacking your kid if they 'sassed', even told about how she got paddled in HIGH SCHOOL!!!). It became kind of a joke between another mom and I who were more natural/GD leaning. Whenever she would start with one of her parenting gems we would just look at one another, roll our eyes and say 'Texas!'










Oh! Oh! Oh! And did she tell you the paddles had HOLES in them?

At least they do here.

Texas sucks.

mv


----------



## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

THE PERSON WHO HITS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HITTTING. Let's be clear on this. NO ONE can MAKE someone else HIT THEIR CHILD. It's not the neighbor's fault, the laundry woman's fault, the garbage collector's fault, or even W's fault. It's certainly not the child's fault. And in this case, it would NOT be Sheena's fault if that BABY got hit again. It is ONLY the FAULT of the PERSON who does the HITTING.


----------



## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
LOL, I KNOW! I feel














after this thread. I wish it would die die die....









:








Sheena









Why is it that in every single thread of moms sharing a particular difficult/sad day or event looking for support, there are always posts turning against that mom in one level or another??


----------



## lovemybaby (Jun 29, 2003)

Sheena you were absolutely right to speak up and try to comfort your children. What a terrifying scene for them to witness, beating a BABY! The poor baby, hopefully the baby will know that somebody cared and it was wrong to be hit. Even in Texas, which from what I hear is one of the worst spanking places, it would probably be considered abuse to hit a baby, the law there says "reasonable" physical punishment. It's not reasonable to hit a baby. The baby was just crying for Pete's sake. How horrible that Sheena was then harrassed by the mother of the baby! And the others in the room joined in!?!

I think people in the US need to start thinking about children as something other than possessions, for parents to do with as they please. Hitting babies is just wrong, and when someone is brave enough to say something out loud about it, then they should be congratulated for their honesty and bravery! Over 100 research studies have shown hitting children is bad for them, but some parents don't want to give up their "right" to whack little ones I guess! I don't think it's useful to compare hitting to bf-ing or family bed, hitting has been proven to be harmful where bf-ing and family bed have been proven to be GOOD for babies! Parents should do good things for their babies, and when they mess up badly, like a full-grown man smacking a baby, they should be told to stop it. Protecting an abuser's ego by not saying anything just lets them off the hook, who gains if nobody speaks up? The baby isn't going to be hit more if someone speaks against it - what nonsense! More likely it will make those baby-hitters think twice about beating their little one, at least in a public place. Babies get injured and die from being hit. Never hit a baby!

My hat off to Sheena, we need to speak up more for the little ones. I would have threatened to call the cops on my cell phone if that "mother" had harrassed me


----------



## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

*Links in this post may be disturbing*

I wrote (about spanking) that "it was abuse" and this was one response:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThinkBlu*
By YOUR definition?

Yes, and Alice ******'s, and Irwin Hyman's....spanking can cause aggression, violent behavior, anxiety, depression, addiction, lowered IQ because it can stall intellectual development, and other problems.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin4.htm

Spanking is violence, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics and several major mental health organizations.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin1.htm

Have you read the "sticky" at the top of this board with rules for this message board, which read in part:

Quote:

Please appreciate that *this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children.* Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.

Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=113264


----------



## sabrinat (Jul 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
Right... but one of my kids is two. Plus, to have waited and done it in secret would have only taught my children to speak up but only in the comfort of your own home.

God, frankly, I wish I had never brough this up. You can say pretty much anything here and someone will turn it around on you 8 ways til sunday. The last thing I envisioned at the GD board was defending my actions to defend my own children.

I am sorry that your had that experience.
You have said in several of your post that you weren't looking for a conforntation, only reinforcing your own belief system as a teachable moment, right? But I'm getting confused becuz now it sounds like you wanted the woman to hear what you were saying to teach her something.
I find it ironic that you're less than thrilled by the mixed responses to your experience, becuz in essence someone is saying _your parenting technique was wrong_ in the same way you said _her technique was wrong_ .
I'm on MDC becuz I prescribe to the majority of the belief systems shared by other mama on this board.
The spanking of a child IS WRONG. I just disagree with being passive/aggressive. If you want to stand up and make a point...Do it! Tell the mama, "Hey, there's another way", say it to her clearly while looking her in the eye, don't criticize her parenting in front of her children.


----------



## mommaJ (May 3, 2005)

ugh, reading your post made me sick to my stomach. I would've been SO upset if I had witnessed the dad spanking his toddler. SO upset. I feel ill when I see people spank their dogs in public.

Hugs to you Mama!!!

ETA: Just read most of the thread....wow...can't believe it has gotten so turned around. If you can't come to MDC to post about something like this without getting criticized, then something is wrong.

I think its very easy for people to sit at their computers and read the OP and think through what they may have done differently in the situation, but people please remember that when something like this is happening to/in front of you there is no such luxury. Most of us have situations that we look back at and think "I wish I would have said XYZ".

I think its unfortunate that in expressing opinions around here, the OP has been criticized for her GD opinion, especially on the GD forum.


----------



## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

I wonder if those who are shaming the OP for speaking up are having traumatic memories of their own which color their debate with her. I remember being a child in a violent (spanking) home, you learn to be as quiet as a mouse, don't make waves, don't speak up. The whole thing is so sad.


----------



## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

I think you said the baby did NOT stop crying? I believe THAT proves your point. Kids do need discipline - Effective Discipline - and spanking is NOT effective discipline.

Poor little baby . . . . .


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:

I want you to acknowledge that, and let it inform your future actions.
Aside from the fact that you have put an entirely different spin on my experience where in the world do you get off wanting me to do ANYTHING? Please.

Quote:

When you choose to defend your own children's emotional welfare in a manner that further endangers another child's physical welfare, then you certainly shouldn't expect hugs and cuddles for it on MDC or anywhere else. I think those of us with more/different experiences dealing with these situation have been pretty darn gentle with you so far, understanding that it was a really tough situation that you were not prepared for.
And what in the world does that mean? "Being gentle" with me... hmm, thanks, mom. No room for mistakes in your world, I guess. I'm insulted about 3X over by your posts.

I certainly did come here looking for some "hugs" and understand, fully admitting I felt like maybe I had made a mistake. I refuse to live my life (and have all conversations) in constant fear that someone else might hear me, that is not a "cop-out", as you so accusingly claimed, but more a matter of my belief in free speech.

I mean, what would you have done? Take the mom aside and said, "Listen, there are other ways to discipline your child." And do you really think the outcome would be any different?


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

It wasn't my intention to insult you, Sheena, and if you really did come to this conversation open to the idea that you had made a mistake, I completely missed that and got distracted by what other people were saying and that is MY error, certainly not yours. I apologize for that as well.

"I mean, what would you have done? Take the mom aside and said, "Listen, there are other ways to discipline your child." And do you really think the outcome would be any different?"

Who knows? I would probably have taken my toddler to the bathroom for a "diaper change" so we could discuss it there while my dh and older child moved our stuff to another table. But I've had DAYS to think about this, plus previous experience in similar situations to guide me, and you didn't have either of those things.

Maybe it was a cheap shot to suggest that the baby received extra abuse because you were overheard. We can never know that for sure either way. What DEFINITELY wound up happening was that all children involved (yours, theirs, plus any others in earshot) got to see a scarily enraged adult supported by a roomful of calmer adults, all insisting that kids must be hit for their own good. That's not your fault in any way, but I still hope it's on your mind the next time you are trying to figure out how to react to a public spanking. I don't envy you this aspect of life in Texas - I had a choice between life in Houston and Seattle and I am grateful for the privilege of that choice every day. It must be tough to practice AP and GD when the local culture is in such opposition to it. If I'm being too hard on you, maybe that's a reflection on how easy I have it as a GD-inclined parent out here on the Left Coast.







:

I never want you to feel what I felt when that toddler in Philadelphia hit the ground one more time (and harder) because her mother felt the need to react to my reaction. It's been five years, and I still think about it often.


----------



## Niamh (Jan 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie*
It wasn't my intention to insult you, Sheena, and if you really did come to this conversation open to the idea that you had made a mistake, I completely missed that

Not quite sure how. From her first post:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
I spent the rest of day alternating between feeling guilty and feeling like I stood up for what I believe.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
She just COULD not let it go and I feel bad, like I judged her or something. I mean, I did judge her, I think spanking is abuse and I would have felt bad had I let my 2 and 6 year old see a dad beat his toddler and not said anything. But still... I feel so weird about the whole thing.

Part of support is saying "I'm sorry you were in that situation", "I'm sorry you're feeling that way", "I'm sorry this happened to you".

Another, equally important, part of support is saying "Maybe next time you could say this", "Look at it from this point of view", etc.

I think Sheena (as evidenced by her first post) came to the board expecting both components of support. Which says alot for her-most only come to these boards for "good feelings" support and resent any constructive remarks.

Sheena has received both constructive help and some blistering attacks. Some very undeserved attacks. If she'd wanted those, she could have talked to her neighbors, etc who feel differently from her about spanking. But she came here, to a support board, to get validation and help. And that's all she should have received having posted in the GENTLE DISCIPLINE forum. After all, she could have expected those remarks if she'd posted in TAO-then she couldn't have reasonably expected fully supportive comments.

I opened this post up expecting to see two things: support for the poster and suggestions for how one could handle this situation in the future. My main goal in reading this post was to get words to say and actions to use if I ever found myself in a similar situation-I'm not much good at thinking of appropriate things to say in high-pressure situations.

So, from Scubamom, TwiceMom, and others, I have been able to further crystallize my own thinking on the issue of spanking (I've always been against it, but never put together 'hitting grown woman=bad/illegal, hitting child=discipline/legal) and given me appropriate ranges of responses for similar situations I may find myself in.

Although the family mentioned in the OP _may_ go home and hit a bit harder the next time out of remembered embarassment, I don't think that really likely in this situation. The mother unleashed most of her venom on the OP and felt justified by the agreement of the other mothers she solicited for agreement. Her embarassment, if any, was minimal.

My DH said that if he saw an abusive situation, he would have the police on the way before he approached the person so that an over-the-top altercation could be avoided, the children's parents would be "on the radar", and they would be a lot more cautious about 'disciplining' in public-even if they do live in a pro-spanking state.


----------



## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:

I opened this post up expecting to see two things: support for the poster and suggestions for how one could handle this situation in the future. My main goal in reading this post was to get words to say and actions to use if I ever found myself in a similar situation-I'm not much good at thinking of appropriate things to say in high-pressure situations.
Thank you, Niamh. Your post exactly sums up what I wanted from this thread and what I intended when I started it. Frankly, I am no closer to having any clue what to do in this situation than I was when I started.









Thank you to all who supported me and who gave constructive criticsm! I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of the kind PMs and nice words you all had to say as well as the helpful advice and commiseration. I'm bowing out now and I hope this thread will die away or get locked because it got so far away from its original intent its hardly worth reading anymore.


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"Frankly, I am no closer to having any clue what to do in this situation than I was when I started."

Then you're right, the thread has been a failure and should die. I'm bowing out as well.


----------



## guest^ (Oct 29, 2002)

What a good idea your dh had Niamh! Probably a little bit more appropriate if a confrontation was planned though. In the OP's post, it was the other lady who did the confronting.

mp


----------



## ThinkBlu (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
You misinterpret my statement here. I didn't mean that I don't care that spanking is illegal; I meant I don't let what is legal or illegal decide morality for me.

I don't care for the slightly disguised insult in your post. I'm not 100% sure what you're implying but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that you have no idea what my activism WRT to parenting or anything else has been.

We do have very different views... but not in the way you have assumed.

I meant no insult, and I meant no offense. Also, I recognize that you meant that you don't let legality decide morality...I don't either (i.e., I think gambling is wrong), but I tend to think that in a democracy such as ours, that our laws are pretty fair recognizing the complexity of 30 million people with diverse views all trying to cohabitate. Hard to to put in words exactly what I meant, but I get the feeling that you see things more as black/white right/wrong, whereas I see things more as shades of grey. I suspect that you feel more confident in defending what you see as 'right', whereas I would see it more as me trying to impose my opinion on someone. Your comments also led me to believe that provided that you are doing what you think/know is right, that the opinions of others means very little to you, after all, your kids come first whereas I am someone who would choose a very isolated place before nursing in public lest I offend someone by an action which I too know is nothing that should need to be hidden.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I am closing this thread with permission of the OP.

Please feel free to start a new thread to discuss witnessing public spanking.

PM me if you have any questions or concerns. Thanks!


----------

