# Do you know anyone who spanks?



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

On several of the forums on this board, people talk about how they're always having to justify their way of parenting, including not spanking. I live in a very mainstream area (and am relatively mainstream myself in a lot of ways), and none of my friends, family, acquaintances, etc. spanks their kids or thinks that spanking is okay.

Yet I read a lot of comments here about how "most" people think you're not a good mom unless you're dealing with a tantrum using physical force, even spanking. Is that really how "most" people who live around you seem? Because that's not my perception at all -- around here (again, in a very conservative, mainstream area), I see nothing but acceptance for things like NIP, no spanking, etc.

Are the people who complain of constantly having to rail against the societal "norm" just being sensitive/cynical, or do some of you really live in areas where there's that much open disapproval of your parenting style?


----------



## mamatoliam (Oct 31, 2005)

Yes I know lots of people who spank. Other than my ap group mommy friends I don't know anyone IRL who doesn't use time outs and other punishments even if they don't spank.


----------



## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

My BIL and SIL spank as their primary disipline. Everynow and then, depending on what the kid did (they have four boys) they use time out, spanking and lectures. I didn't know them until 3 years ago (they lived on the other side of the country, now they live in the next state) and they would spank the heck out of their youngest and he was maybe 18 months!

Where I live there are a lot of people who think you're stupid for not spanking you kid. Every where I go, I see kids get hit. It's just how it is here.


----------



## BamBam'sMom (Jun 4, 2005)

I try and associate with AP moms, but the people here who I know from before I had my son spank. Also, my SIL spanks. My MIL believes in spanking and uses physical punishment to discipline her grandkids who live near her.


----------



## speairson (Jul 25, 2005)

I also know lots of people who spank and have gotten flack from MIL and SIL because I haven't spanked the kids "yet". SIL and her neighbor will openly talk of spaking their children as young as 8 months and I've seen SIL do it. Dh's cousin also spanks his son (3 years old) in public. I was spanked a lot, dh was spanked (although that was a generation ago). Yeah, I would say many, though not all, of the parents I know IRL spank, but I've only gotten flack from SIL and MIL about not spanking.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmh23*
Every where I go, I see kids get hit. It's just how it is here.

Seriously? That's awful. I guess I should count my blessings that I'm able to parent the way I want to *and* don't have to deal with having to explain myself to everyone around me. Around here, the mother who spanks her child in public is the one to get the glares.


----------



## roomformore (Apr 28, 2006)

Everyone I know with children is spanking or has spanked them. Oh, I've heard my MIL never spanked her two kids. I remember changing a diaper on my son when he was less than a year old and very squirmy- my grandmother told me I should just give him a few good 'swats' and he'd learn to stop!







: I got this from my entire family. Still do. Funny that my kids are better behaved than all the others...


----------



## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

What I've learned is that you'd be shocked sometimes with who does spank and who doesn't. For example my boss is also somewhat my friend AND most importantly she used to be an LLL leader. She bf her dd for almost 2 years until she self weaned, she's into very natural non-medicated births, no vaxes, all that kind of stuff. However she told me that when her dd would hit her she'd smack her back. When she pulled her hair she'd yank a few hairs out of her dd's head. When she got bit she bit her back! Can you imagine BITING your own child?! How ridiculous is that?! When I told her that made no sense at all to do her response was, "I'm from the south and that's how we do things." Don't worry, I know not everyone from the south does it that way! She sure doesn't make any southerners look good though with those statements!


----------



## brmama3 (Mar 19, 2006)

BIL and SIL spank. MIL and FIL spank also. My parents spanked me, never our kids though. In my area-group of friends acquaintances it is has been a last resort not the primary form of parenting.

I have not seen a child spanked in public, but I hear verbal abuse every time I go out. It's sad to hear a mother tell her child to "shutup, I can't stand you talking to me"


----------



## Robin926 (Jun 25, 2005)

Almost every single person I know spanks, and we are constantly getting advice to spank our DS. Even as young as 9 months old when he reached for something, we were told to smack his hands. DH's grandma told me that a cousin of DH's was smacking her 2 or 3 month old's hands for sucking her thumb.

I see kids get hit in public all the time, for things that I would never even reprimand a child for, let alone hit them. No one ever bats an eye around here either. It's so sad.


----------



## Daisie125 (Oct 26, 2005)

My best friend spanks her kids.... alot







for everything....

We have been friends since we were 7... I won't end the relationship over it, I just try to show her a better way, and lead by example. She knows I hate it, and doesn't do it when I'm around.

Also when I am left with her children I use my way with them, in hopes that she will see that her children really can be 'dealt with' without spanking.

Most people I know spank, however... it's sad. I was spanked by my mom a handful of times, and honestly, I probably deserved it... granted it was wrong to spank me, but I don't blame her, I was a rather *ahem* mean child.


----------



## Strong Mama (Feb 7, 2006)

i can really really identify with this. I am from down south georgia, where its *beat that ass boys* for children. seriously. I used to spank ds 1 not often, but i used to spank. mostly out of pure pure ignorance and the way i was raised. i was spanked, everyone i know who raises children spanks. i knew no better until a few years ago. which i really stopped spanking ds 1 when he was about 6 or 7 because at that time i learned about natural consequences,etc. But i have openly spanked in public one time. out of pure pressure. ds was on a slide going up the wrong way and i told him to get down 3 times(he was 6) as there was a small toddler wanting to go down the slide. well ds didnt and he made the toddler crash on the ground and bump his head quite hard and i saw the glares from the parents like arent you going to do something about this so i spanked right there and they looked satisfied and i felt terrible but that was the last time i spanked. i have come close to spanking ds 2 maybe twice out of frustraition but have found it quite hard to break the way of living/being raised, but i am doing it, not spanking. It is really sad, and we are moving back there in 2 weeks where i am sure i will get the *dont you whoop that boys butt???* question a LOT.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brmama3*
It's sad to hear a mother tell her child to "shutup, I can't stand you talking to me"

Ugh, I have heard stuff like that -- it's awful. Come to think of it, my ex-coworker said stuff like that. Her girls (a 4yo and a 5yo) would be standing _right next to her_ and she'd say stuff to me like, "Yours is sweet now, but wait 'til he's old enough to be a brat like mine!" Once she actually used the h-word in reference to them, again with them standing right there. She said, "They're being such brats today -- I hate them!" She must have seen the horrified look on my face because she backpedalled and said, "Well, not _them_, but ... you know what I mean." Yeah ... no. I totally understand having a frustrating, overwhelming day, but I don't understand telling someone you hate your child when the poor kid is standing right there listening.

So I guess stuff like that does exist around me, but it's by far the exception to the rule. I guess I just get so used to my friends' and family's way of thinking that I feel like people are being overly defensive when they talk about how no one around them can relate to their parenting style, but clearly, based on the things I'm reading here, lots of people actually are surrounded by old-fashioned ideologies and people who think they're being "soft" by respecting their children as people with thoughts and feelings and a right to express themselves.


----------



## hellyaellen (Nov 8, 2005)

most parents i know spank. in fact when i'm having a very bad mommy day i spank. i always regret it and i apologize after.

i was spanked and i guess its sort of instinctive although its a response that only comes out when my patience and energy and creativity reserves are totally depleted. i guess i should say dd is having high needs on those days.

does that make it ok? no! of course not. i am learning about gentle discipline and am trying to replace the spanking habit with better habits but it is hard. i'm thankful to have come across mdc when ds (8mos) was still in utero and wish i had known about it when dd (6yo) was younger.

i guess education is making a difference. ifound myself calling it what it is the other day. iwas talking with my sister about time outs and said "its better than hitting them" which she agreed with. i think many spanking parents feel shame about it. i know i do. maybe that is why you "see" less of it in some areas.

although most people around here spank i don't see kids being hit in public very often. what i do see is kids being hauled out to the car or parking lot by one arm crying while the overwhelmed parent is threatening to spank. it usually seems to be a last resort type of thing.

just my thoughts

eta- being in an environment where spanking is encourged as the ultimate solution to every discipline problem makes it tough. i know what you mean fedup about feeling pressured to spank sometimes in public.


----------



## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

I've seen a toddler being slapped in public once here. Besides that I don't know of anyone who spanks. But then again I don't know that they don't spank either (if that makes sense lol). Not too many of my friends have kids and the other mom's I've met in my neighbourhood are just acquaintances so I'm not sure what goes on with them "behind closed doors".


----------



## tempestjewel (Apr 18, 2005)

Yes, I know people who spank, and unfortunately some that I know think they *have* to because of mis-used bible scriptures







:

I would have to agree that I hear a lot more verbal abuse then I see parents spanking in public.

However, evidently my reputation for being anti-spanking precedes me, because I've had people say "I know you don't spank... how do you handle this situation". I'm up front and honest why I don't spank, and why I don't think its "necessary". I was spanked growing up, and I used to stand outside my sisters room when they were spanked and cry because it felt that wrong to me then.

One thing I really hate is the word "spank". I hate how words exist that make something sound better then it really is, kwim? To me spanking = hitting and it should be called that.


----------



## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Yep. Lots. One of my former co-workers favorite websites was the Pearls' website. uke

My best friend spanks. My sister spanks. Lots of my coworkers spank. My dh's coworkers spank, one of them recommended Babywise to us (again, uke).

We're freaks who don't hit _or_ baby-train. Super weirdos, apparently.


----------



## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Sadly, I know of ONE person who doesn't spank, and I just met her yesterday! Everyone around here spanks, at least everyone we associate with. Maybe it's because we tend to be around Christians who believe its their duty to spank, but...sad.


----------



## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

I know people who spank, and usually once I find out they spank I tend to distance myself from them pretty fast.

An old friend of mine brought her 3 year old dd over for a playdate a few weeks ago (never again!) and was telling me how when she spanks, her dd just laughs and tells her to do it harder. Then in the next breath says "just wait until you have to spank yours" I looked at her, just appalled and said "I don't hit my kids" Blech.


----------



## Niamh (Jan 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean*
Are the people who complain of constantly having to rail against the societal "norm" just being sensitive/cynical, or do some of you really live in areas where there's that much open disapproval of your parenting style?

I think it's easy for those of us who practice GD (and all other types of AP-extBF,EC,babywearing, etc) to be sensitive to society's judgments. In this case, however, I wouldn't think they were being overly sensitive.

In my case specifically, I only know four other women who don't spank. Three sisters and one SIL. All 4 other SILs do spank, MIL spanks, my dad spanks, my mom spanks, all of my friends spank, etc. It's hard for my dad because two non-spanking sisters let him spank their kids while the other two of us would remove his grandkids from him for a very long time if he tried it. (I also hear the "You'll have to do it sometime" comment from family all of the time.)

Where I live you don't see too much spanking, but a lot of physical roughness accompanied by spanking threats. Also a lot of verbal roughness.


----------



## apple_dumpling (Oct 20, 2004)

All of my neighbors spank... in front of everyone, all the time.

No one in my family spanks, nor does anyone in DH's family, so I guess we are fortunate to have both grown up in the environment where *not* spanking was the norm, so there was never any conflict of interest for us when it comes to disciplining dd.

I do know lots of people from different areas, and I know that for many of them, it was just how they were raised, and they just don't know any different







They are all nice people, they just don't know how to discipline without spanking...


----------



## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

We don't spank (well, I have a couple times out of anger but I try not to and hope not to ever again). None of my friends spank their kids. However, my partner's family spanks as a rule, and my kids are the only kids (of 20 or so) who aren't hit, I'm pretty sure. My mom thinks I should spank my son. Also, I see people in public threatening to "whoop" their kids pretty often.
I feel well-cushioned by the large group of AP/natural parents I surround myself with, so I don't feel too sensitive to that stuff. However, I hate when we go to my partner's grandma's house and my kids see other kids getting hit.


----------



## straighthaircurly (Dec 17, 2005)

Most people around me don't spank and you almost never see anyone here do it in public, but there is also A LOT of early childhood/family education in this state. My stepmom did suggest that I bite my son back when he went through his biting stage but I stood her down on that idea!

Kris


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

My cousin spanks, and I swear she seems to enjoy it. When her DD was 12 months old, they came to visit us and she was crawling and toddling and getting into everything--I kept moving things out of her DD's reach, and my cousin got annoyed with me and said "no, leave it there. She has to learn" and then WHAM she'd slap her DD.

I feel so bad for the little girl. And now that my DD is 16 months old, it has started to scare her to see it happen. Needless to say, we don't see them often.


----------



## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

Yes.







My niece gets spanked for everything, and it's so weirdly 'ritualistic' - never done in anger, just done so calmly, yk? That almost makes it more sick for me. She is always talking about being spanked too, "Don't do that Flora, your mom will spank you!" for things I wouldn't dream of being angry about much less disciplining for. (Like spilling a drink...)

The little girl I babysit for, well all the kids in that family, get spanked. I've watched them all since birth, the oldest is now 10. Last time I went over there they had a wooden chair rail on the counter as a reminder to the middle child (who has some behavioral issues I BELIEVE due to food sensitivities) to behave. I tried not to show my true feelings, because I love these kids dearly and I don't want to get fired!, and I asked if she's ever had to use it but she said no she wouldn't use it, she just uses her hand and the threat of the chair rail is enough.









The youngest in that family, a 5yo girl, is like a daughter to me. I love her dearly. Her parents love her dearly too, I know they do, but they spank. It hurts me so much to think of her being hurt and know there isn't anything I can do to stop it. She also gets spanked for dumb stuff like spilling drinks, and when she spilled a drink at my house once she ran and hid and cried. She was 3.5-4 years old at the time. Even my 2.5yo knows if you spill a drink you just get the rag and wipe it up, no biggie.









In both families I've noticed they ignore their kids misbehaving at first, they don't nip things in the bud, and then when the kid is over the top and acting really inappropriately the parents go from ignoring to "it's whoopin' time". It's bizarre. Now I am bummed out from thinking about it.







:


----------



## chann96 (May 13, 2004)

I know a few people who spank. My brother and his wife did although their kids are old enough now (9 and 11) that I'm not sure what they do now. It was terrible to watch, but fortunately we live far away and didn't see them often. My sister spanks a little bit. She does the "save it for when they do something that really puts them in danger like running into a street" so I'm not sure how much she actually does it. I don't recall ever seeing it.

The weird one is some friends we know who are very AP otherwise, but spank. They have mentioned not doing it anymore as they found it wasn't effective. I hope that's true.


----------



## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

A friend IRL that I know uses the Pearl's practices as outlines in To Train Up a Child. It's completely frightening. The piping tubing can be found hanging out of this lady's back pocket EVERYWHERE she goes. I was half tempted to take it out one day then saw she had two more in her diaper bag. UGH


----------



## eden/averymum (Jun 13, 2005)

I live downtown in Toronto, Canada, so I see alot of diversity, I don't know anyone personally who spanks except my sister.


----------



## Junebug (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:

Ugh, I have heard stuff like that -- it's awful. Come to think of it, my ex-coworker said stuff like that. Her girls (a 4yo and a 5yo) would be standing right next to her and she'd say stuff to me like, "Yours is sweet now, but wait 'til he's old enough to be a brat like mine!"
I used to work with a nurse who referred to her 16yo twin daughters as, "The Bitches"


----------



## mama_b (Dec 14, 2004)

I don't know anyone besides us (me and dh) that doesn't spank.


----------



## Faerieshadow (Mar 31, 2005)

I also don't know anyone else IRL who doesn't spank. Dp and I are regularly "told off" by people we work with that spanking is the only way to raise a child, you have to instill fear and respect into them, blah blah blah. Now, some of the people I know only spank as a "last resort" - you know, the "Do that one more time and you'll get a spanking" after stern talkings and a time out didn't work. I suppose that's better than whacking your kid all the time, but it is still awful in my book.

So, no, I don't think that as GD moms we're being overly sensitive about the issue - I seriously do not know ONE other person IRL who doesn't use spanking as a tool.


----------



## Junebug (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:

spanking is the only way to raise a child, you have to instill fear and respect into them, blah blah blah.
Yuck! That is my MILs mantra- she's a big fan of "pain compliance"...needless to say, her contact w/dd is limited.







:


----------



## scbegonias (Aug 15, 2003)

Ack! We (DH and I) don't spank. I was never hit as a child. DH's mom hit him. I don't know anyone who spanks IRL, although I have a friend who has defended it as necessary at times...but has yet to spank her 2yo DD.

Last winter DH saw someone pulled over on the side of the highway hitting their DD. We called the cops. DH was traumatized.

DH does do timeouts with 2yo DD...and still hasn't learned that there are better ways. He'll come around, I'm sure of it, and it doesn't happen often enough for it to be a fight between us. He'll learn faster by seeing how things go with me, my parents, and others who don't do timeouts.


----------



## speairson (Jul 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shelsi*
Can you imagine BITING your own child?! How ridiculous is that?!

My mom tells a story about how when I was 2 I bit other children including my baby brother. She goes on about how she tried everything and nothing worked. So, one day she bit me, and apparently that did the trick. I can't imagine biting my child, but apparently it's not that ridiculous to some people.


----------



## bratmobile (Jun 30, 2004)

wow, these replies are kind of sad-just how prevalent it still seems. i guess i forget that we live in a little bubble but we really don't see spanking here. it would be pretty shocking to see someone parent that way and i think if they did they would not do it in most public places around other Berkeley parents. perhaps there is more spanking and violence than i think but it must take place fairly discreetly or behind closed doors...


----------



## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Yes, I do, but I also know many parents who don't, both mainstream and not.

I also know people who say they "believe" in spanking but have never spanked, and I doubt they actually will.


----------



## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shelsi*
What I've learned is that you'd be shocked sometimes with who does spank and who doesn't. For example my boss is also somewhat my friend AND most importantly she used to be an LLL leader. She bf her dd for almost 2 years until she self weaned, she's into very natural non-medicated births, no vaxes, all that kind of stuff. However she told me that when her dd would hit her she'd smack her back. When she pulled her hair she'd yank a few hairs out of her dd's head. When she got bit she bit her back! Can you imagine BITING your own child?! How ridiculous is that?! When I told her that made no sense at all to do her response was, "I'm from the south and that's how we do things." Don't worry, I know not everyone from the south does it that way! She sure doesn't make any southerners look good though with those statements!

I'm from the South too, and unfortunately I've also heard those parenting comments by more than one person. Don't worry though--my little monkey is perfectly safe with me









~Nay


----------



## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attila the Honey*

The youngest in that family, a 5yo girl, is like a daughter to me. I love her dearly. Her parents love her dearly too, I know they do, but they spank. It hurts me so much to think of her being hurt and know there isn't anything I can do to stop it. She also gets spanked for dumb stuff like spilling drinks, and when she spilled a drink at my house once she ran and hid and cried. She was 3.5-4 years old at the time. Even my 2.5yo knows if you spill a drink you just get the rag and wipe it up, no biggie.










Oh that is so sad!







: Even my 21 month old knows to go to the drawer, get a kitchen towel, and help clean up his messes. What on earth do they think hitting their little girl is accomplishing?

~Nay


----------



## illinoismommy (Apr 14, 2006)

Except for some other AP moms I know, I am the only non-spanker.


----------



## Shaunam (Oct 8, 2004)

Almost everyone I know.







I even saw a lady smack her DD at a LLL meeting.







: She was only a couple of months older than DS, like 18 or 19 months. My sister spanks. Even my mom and dad who were pretty ap spanked on occassion for the biggies, like running in the street. All of my family up to this generation did.

My other sister, who has a 10 month old DD, is not all that AP, except that she doesn't do CIO (thank goodness), and she's learning about how spanking harms so *hopefully* she will never do it.

The three ladies who were regulars at the LLL meetings I went to before I moved from ohio did NOT spank.

One of my DH's friends had two dd's and he started spanking before they were a year old.







Over every. little. thing. It made me sick! There was one time, he whacked his 4 year old on the butt while she was standing, with no warning, and sent her flying into a chair and she hit her head. He apologized because he didn't mean for THAT to happen but for crying out loud, if you lose control when you spank you *really* shouldn't be doing it! (not that I think *anybody* should be doing it, but you know what I mean)

I think here in the bible belt, spanking is not only considered ok, but a necessary part of raising a child. You constantly see it in public. And strangers are real quick to offer up advice on how "a good 'pop' will teach him..."


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I don't know anyone who spanks or thinks it is okay. From what I've read, less parents here psank than in the U.S. Unfortunately, spanking is still legal here, but there are narrow parameters on it.


----------



## MommyTorf (Nov 9, 2004)

Most of the people I know spank. it seems to unfortunately be the "norm" here. I also hear people verbally abusing their kids just about every time I go to the grocery store.


----------



## pookel (May 6, 2006)

I don't really have friends with kids old enough to spank (just babies), so I don't actually know their philosophies on this issue. I was shocked recently, though, when two different friends told me nonchalantly that their parents had hit them WITH A BELT when they were kids. These are both people from otherwise happy, healthy, loving families, who had never said anything negative to me about their parents before.

Both the sets of parents are a little older than the norm for my generation ... like in their 70s. I guess that's just what was considered normal when they were growing up. But I was still totally shocked.


----------



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

i think everyone i know really well spanks. Certainly everyone in my family does. I am trying hard to break the cycle , but it is so hard. I have a rambunctious two yr old, and sometimes she pushes me to the limit.


----------



## shelley4 (Sep 10, 2003)

no one in my circle of friends (the ones that i see all the time) spank, but i do know people who do, and it makes me so


----------



## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

The only people I know who spank are my cousins who live in...you guessed it, the South. There really are different norms in different parts of the country. That said, some of my cousins rarely spank and are really pretty GD, while my one male cousin "pops" his kids for anything







and has been doing it since they were babies. It is so sad. So there is a big range among spankers, too.

Re the biting thing, my mom (who is also from the South, incidentally) said that when I was 1 or so and got into a biting phase, she bit me back and I never did it again. This is totally the common way to deal with biting in our extended family. My mom and dad both spanked us, and my mom also slapped us a few times and once threw a phone at me







but I have to say that the SHAMING and emotional/verbal abuse I received in childhood (mostly from my dad, but from my mom too) was in general more traumatic than the hitting. And they never hit us with an implement, just their hands - and never made us remove our pants for a spanking, although I remember my dad threatening to do so at least once.

Yikes, just writing about it makes me feel sick







- no wonder I still have such bitterness about my childhood even though I have a pretty good relationship with my parents now and think they are both good people. It's just so sad that it is culturally "normal" to hit, shame and humiliate your children.


----------



## hellyaellen (Nov 8, 2005)

just wanted to add to my earlier post.

Quote:

they ignore their kids misbehaving at first, they don't nip things in the bud, and then when the kid is over the top and acting really inappropriately the parents go from ignoring to "it's whoopin' time".
this is where i as a spanker mess up. its when i am trying to give dd (6yo) an opportunity to correct her own behavior and fail to intervene in a timely enough fashion to keep myself from losing it.

heres an example:
dd gets hyper yelling running aroung getting too in my face for comfort. i ignore it. she gets worse. i ignore it. finally "dd please settle down." ...and then when she doesn't comply b/c she's already all wound up and i am insane from the noise/motion/proximity i end up spanking

or i ask her to do something she refuses it becomes a battle of wills and i forget the the important thing is for x to happen not for me to "win" and i end up spanking.

i guess i really am starting to change my behaviour b/c dh said to me the other night during example one (before it had progressed too far) well if you're not going to spank her you should send her to her room. and we did send her to her room. and she did come out calmer.

it is a journey progrees figuring out what to do instead of spanking though


----------



## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hellyaellen*
it is a journey progrees figuring out what to do instead of spanking though

Well, I see it as being akin to deciding not to do CIO. You just make the decision and that's *it*. It is not an option, it is not on the table, so you just have to find alternatives even if they are hard to find. As long as spanking is still an option for you you will find a way to rationalize it and it *will* keep happening. Just tell yourself that from this day going forward, it doesn't matter what happens, how stressed you are or what DD's behavior is like, *spanking is not an option*. You will find alternatives.

(this is the mindset I used to quit smoking, btw, and if it works with an entrenched addiction like smoking, I have no doubt it can work with anything that is important to you - but it does have to be important to you!)


----------



## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

There are pillars of AP in my view. Breastfeeding, co-sleeping, babywearing and gentle discipline being those pillars.

Now, I accept that some cases warrant ff.
Some parents cannot comfortably sleep with thier child but find things so that the child can be in thier room with them.
Babywearing...once again, there were times when mine were so big and we were walking that I would use a stroller at times...

But Gentle Discipline is a deal breaker with AP in my opinion. You simply cannot AP if you can defend spanking as a choice in your parenting tool box. There is NOTHING attachment forming in hitting another person.

To me AP is recognizing that breastfeeding, co-sleeping, babywearing and gentle discipline are the way it should be.


----------



## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I have removed some posts from this thread relating to advocating spanking, and moved it from Toddlers to GD.


----------



## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Yup. My neighbor spanks. A lot.








She takes spoons and sticks in to threaten with. I haven't ever seen her USE them.. but still...


----------



## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

A guy I used to work with had a DS that was exactly a month younger than my DS. When his baby was about 11 months old, they took him to the doc, and she told him that they should use spanking to discipline their baby. He said, "She said to tell DS not to do something once, and if he didn't stop, then you spank him."














The reason I know this is because he'd confessed that he'd, "given DS his first spanking" that day. When I questioned him on why he would feel the need to do that to such a young baby, he told me about the doctor. The offense? Getting into the dog's food and water... which was on the floor, of course. I told him his doctor was full of crap, and that if he was interested in a more effective way of dealing with his son, I would be glad to help. I did end up sending him a ton of info on GD.

That being said, I live in TX, the land of "I'm gonna give you a whoopin'."







: Most parents do it out of ignorance because, "that's what you're supposed to do." I was lucky (oh so lucky) to be raised by parents who went from spankers to non-spankers and are now paragons of GD. I think there is one other parent at work who doesn't spank, but he does make endless use of time outs.


----------



## Catrinel (Jul 18, 2005)

I don't know of anyone who spanks and haven't seen it done in public either. Like a few other posters, I also find it suprising when I hear about others' feeling of loneliness regarding their parenting options. But then I don't see why there'd be a separate forum on circumcision, for example, it's just not done around here so you just assume people don't do it. Some very sad stories on this thread...


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Around here, most people seem to keep spanking in their "discipline kit" but don't use it exclusively.

I recently had a friend venting to me about her kids, and feeling overwhelmed, and explained how "sometimes I have to spank" and "I threaten to spank much more often than I actually do it- just the threat is enough." I forget exactly what I said, but I tried to be non-judgemental while saying that I don't discipline the exact same way.

I've never felt like a "weirdo" for not spanking- most of the spanking around here is done in private.


----------



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

its not uncommon to see someone doing it in walmart or the grocery store....


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean*
Seriously? That's awful. I guess I should count my blessings that I'm able to parent the way I want to *and* don't have to deal with having to explain myself to everyone around me. Around here, the mother who spanks her child in public is the one to get the glares.

Yep, here too. I know two families who spank, my MIL and BIL, who are pretty dysfunctional, and an old friend of mine, but she doesn't live around here. I would imagine that if she did she wouldn't, because it's just not very acceptable. Lots and lots of people use reward charts, time-outs, and privelege removal, but I think it's a good sign that it's so unacceptable to hit your kids. Progress!


----------



## Ozzy'sMama (Mar 10, 2006)

There is only one other couple I know that do not spank their children. When Oscar was younger and wasn't as verbal, he used to ask for things by whinning/fussing. Almost all of my friends that were parents told me that I had to get him out of that stage by pinching or spanking him everytime he did it. I tried to explain that was the only way he could communicate with me.

Spanking is still the norm over here. My small town isn't so up to date. People here believe in the "Do it or else". Common phrases for spilling milk on the floor or shutting cubboard drawers are "do it again and you'll get a stinger or Do you want a smack?". This is to children as young as one year. Its a real great place to watch children be raised.

I used to socialise with these people when Oscar was quite young. Now, I don't have the patients or the stomach.

Sara & Oscar (04/11/26)


----------



## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

Even one of the "ap" moms I know do. I only know a few moms, and 2 consider themselves AP. One of them used to spank... and now she doesn't spank, but she swats.


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Man, I just can't believe this thread! I didn't consider myself living in a particularly progressive area (Reno), but I am going to remember to be more grateful that I am.


----------



## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shaunam*

I think here in the bible belt, spanking is not only considered ok, but a necessary part of raising a child. You constantly see it in public. And strangers are real quick to offer up advice on how "a good 'pop' will teach him..."


Oh man, I'm gonna be moving to the south soon. I would FREAK if some stranger said that to me.







:


----------



## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

I live in a very progressive and highly-educated area where hitting kids is frowned upon. So I only know of one family that claims to support it (although they haven't yet hit their child). Even they acknowledge that, if you hit your kids in public around here, you will likely be glared at, if not confronted. This is, after all, the area where Jordan Riak came close to passing a no-spanking ordinance!

I personally tend to associate hitting kids with lower socio-economic groups and less educated people -- and some studies support that (although I realize it is also more prevalent among educated people in certain cultures -- e.g., certain religious followers). I hope this doesn't offend anyone -- this really is the connotation in my community. So IRL, I get the feeling that violent discipline is on the way out. But then I read about its prevalance online and feel so discouraged and sad.


----------



## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Can I ask where the posters who say that they dont know anyone that spanks currently live? Limabean? Catrinel? the_lissa?

I'm floored that you don't know anyone that spanks and even more surprised that you are surprised by these posts. I'm from the South and now live in the Northeast and know plenty of people that spank and believe in spanking. Who either think it is THE way or one possible way or a last resort or something you can't get away from. I hear alot "once you have your kids, you'll change your mind".

So anyway, where do you live? Your location isn't filled in in your member info section.

Kylix


----------



## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kylix*
Can I ask where the posters who say that they dont know anyone that spanks currently live? Limabean? Catrinel? the_lissa?

I'm floored that you don't know anyone that spanks and even more surprised that you are surprised by these posts. I'm from the South and now live in the Northeast and know plenty of people that spank and believe in spanking. Who either think it is THE way or one possible way or a last resort or something you can't get away from. I hear alot "once you have your kids, you'll change your mind".

So anyway, where do you live? Your location isn't filled in in your member info section.

Kylix

I am shocked by these posts! I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. My community is very progressive, fairly wealthy and educated. I think spanking rates are lower generally among those groups. Or so some studies say. I hope I am not just negative stereotyping, but those really are the perceptions around here -- that people who hit their kids are somewhat ignorant.

But on the bright side, I think it's fabulous that so many of us are NOT surrounded by hitters!


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
I am shocked by these posts! I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. My community is very progressive, fairly wealthy and educated. I think spanking rates are lower generally among those groups. Or so some studies say. I hope I am not just negative stereotyping, but those really are the perceptions around here -- that people who hit their kids are somewhat ignorant.

But on the bright side, I think it's fabulous that so many of us are NOT surrounded by hitters!

I also live in a wealthy educated area of the Midwest (like a college town but not).

People here are not super progressive but they consider spanking to be something that only lower class people do. It's simply "not done" here. People here would consider alot of GD nonsense though!


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I'm in Southern Ontario, Canada, and some of these posts shock me. Here, you can only "legally" spank a child between the ages of 2 and 12 and only with an open hand on the bum. When those parameters were defined a few years ago by the Supreme Court, mnany people were surprised because it was expected that the Supreme Court would make spanking illegal altogether. I don't know anyone who spanks, and I have certainly never seen anyone spank a child in public or tell someone they need to spank their kids.

Now, there is a religious community a couple hours from here that does spank. It was in the news a while back because a family had their children taken away.


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*

I personally tend to associate hitting kids with lower socio-economic groups and less educated people -- and some studies support that (although I realize it is also more prevalent among educated people in certain cultures -- e.g., certain religious followers). I hope this doesn't offend anyone -- this really is the connotation in my community.









My parents are Ivy League educated adults with a six figure income who beat the hell outta me until I ran away at 17. Don't be too sure about that


----------



## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
My parents are Ivy League educated adults with a six figure income who beat the hell outta me until I ran away at 17. Don't be too sure about that

















I'm so sorry to hear that. It is a generalization to be sure, with exceptions on both sides (rich and/or educated people beating kids, poor or uneducated people using GD).


----------



## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

I doubt I could go to a grocery store or Target or wherever without hearing someone threaten to hit their child, or see them do it. And I live in one of the wealthiest, most highly-educated counties in the country.


----------



## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

I have not seen anyone spank in public around hee, although I do know some parents who do it behind closed doors (not friends of mine, just people I know). I think it's just as bad to hear the verbal abuse that goes on. For example, I took my dd to the Wild Animal Park recently and heard a mom scream at her ds (who looked about 5-6 and was running because he was excited) "Get the F!#@ back here you little sh*&!" I'm so glad my dd didn't see that. I felt so sorry for that dear litle boy.









It always floors me that the same parents that hit/yell because their toddler can't "control" their behavior are the ones who lose it in stressful situations with their kids. Pot? Kettle? Black?


----------



## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Every parent I know IRL does spank.


----------



## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

I won't say EVERY parent but I know quite a few that use physical discipline (popping their mouth, smacking their hands, spanking their bottom) but I know just as many that thinks spanking is child abuse...although I will say that every parent I know IRL thinks smacking their hand or popping them on the butt for doing something dangerous is okay the whole "They have to associate the street with PAIN" thing...kwim?


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I also live in a wealthy educated area of the Midwest (like a college town but not).

People here are not super progressive but they consider spanking to be something that only lower class people do. It's simply "not done" here. People here would consider alot of GD nonsense though!

Yes, I think it's a little bit of a class difference here, too, and mostly confined to poor white parents. A large percentage of the lower income bracket here are Hispanic, and I've often noticed Hispanic parents looking askance at parents who are yelling at their kids or spanking them. And I cannot think of one time when I've seen a Hispanic parent spank their child, or yell at them. I have seen statistics that say Hispanic parents are more likely to spank, so I don't know if it's because of most of the population here is from Northwestern Mexico, and they're just less likely to, or because they sense that people might be more critical of them, so they do it very privately, or they just value gentle parenting.


----------



## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I wrote that the only people I know IRL who spank are my relos in the South, but I totally forgot about my next-door neighbor. (I'm in San Diego, by the way, and I'm sure there are plenty of spanking parents here, but I don't hang out w/ 'em.)

Ugh. We live in a condo, and our bedroom shares a wall with this woman's bedroom...she is young, lives w/ her dad and younger sister, has an almost-3-year-old dd and is pg again (I see her boyfriend over there occasionally but I don't think he is her dd's dad). I can't swear that she spanks, but she threatens it in the most savage terms - I have heard her say on more than one occasion, "DD, get your ass back in bed or I will beat it black and blue!" - she also occasionally calls her dd a "[email protected]$#er" and threatens her with the "Scream Guy", which I think is her getting in her dd's face and SCREAMING a piercing scream - heard this happen the other night







.

I actually called CPS about her and they told me that they can do nothing unless I have evidence of physical abuse.







I guess I always forget about her when I think of spankers (and I am 99% sure she *does* spank, besides threatening...her tone is just too vicious when she lays into her dd for not sleeping, etc...if she can't restrain herself from calling her toddler obscenities, I'm sure she can't restrain herself from hitting her) - because in order to live next door to her I kind of have to block it out. She is so nice and friendly when we see her outside - she has no idea we can hear her at night, of course - and no one would guess what she is capable of screaming at her poor dd.

I doubt that there is anywhere where spanking is really rare...it may seem like it in places like San Francisco, but that's because it has become a bit more socially unacceptable (and totally unacceptable in progressive circles) so those that do it are less likely to talk about it or do it in public. It's a step. But I don't think we will see an end to spanking on a large scale until we renounce our culture of violence. Not likely to be soon.

I can't wait to move out of this condo.


----------



## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
I am shocked by these posts! I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. My community is very progressive, fairly wealthy and educated. I think spanking rates are lower generally among those groups. Or so some studies say. I hope I am not just negative stereotyping, but those really are the perceptions around here -- that people who hit their kids are somewhat ignorant.

But on the bright side, I think it's fabulous that so many of us are NOT surrounded by hitters!

I am not ignorant, but I am most certainly pretty darn poor! And I try my best to GD. My poverty status has nothing to do with how *I* parent personally, and I've known many "rich" people that hit their children.

I honestly don't see the poor/ignorant=spanking mamas connection where I am. Yes, sometimes the lower income classes seem to be more verbal about how they treat their children. (an example being all the people in my building that scream at their children 24/7 with no regard to who is there listening or watching. I watched a social worker just stand there while she hit her son, and she didn't bat an eye. Now, it might be her "right" to disciple her child, but to do so like that in FRONT of a child protective worker??? That to me is pure stupidity IMO. And thats the kind of parenting I see all around me.... )

(venting!)

People are contantly telling me my child "needs a good spanking", "beat 'em! that'll teach em!" "Uh oh! Looks like someones gonna get their butt beat!" etc... And what saddens me the most, is our neighbor has 2 boys and one on the way. My dd likes to play with her kids, but when she starts screaming at her son for something.. my dd just freezes. She is scared and unsure of the situation, and I end up taking her back upstairs. She isn't exposed to that level of violence in my home. (thank the goddess) (I NEVER let her play down there without me. EVER.)

I just wish this mama would realize how mean she is being. How totally cruel she looks to others. She is SCREAMING and swearing at a 3 and 1 year old...







*sigh*

Okay vent over..


----------



## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
I wrote that the only people I know IRL who spank are my relos in the South, but I totally forgot about my next-door neighbor. (I'm in San Diego, by the way, and I'm sure there are plenty of spanking parents here, but I don't hang out w/ 'em.)

Ugh. We live in a condo, and our bedroom shares a wall with this woman's bedroom...she is young, lives w/ her dad and younger sister, has an almost-3-year-old dd and is pg again (I see her boyfriend over there occasionally but I don't think he is her dd's dad). I can't swear that she spanks, but she threatens it in the most savage terms - I have heard her say on more than one occasion, "DD, get your ass back in bed or I will beat it black and blue!" - she also occasionally calls her dd a "[email protected]$#er" and threatens her with the "Scream Guy", which I think is her getting in her dd's face and SCREAMING a piercing scream - heard this happen the other night







.

I actually called CPS about her and they told me that they can do nothing unless I have evidence of physical abuse.







I guess I always forget about her when I think of spankers (and I am 99% sure she *does* spank, besides threatening...her tone is just too vicious when she lays into her dd for not sleeping, etc...if she can't restrain herself from calling her toddler obscenities, I'm sure she can't restrain herself from hitting her) - because in order to live next door to her I kind of have to block it out. She is so nice and friendly when we see her outside - she has no idea we can hear her at night, of course - and no one would guess what she is capable of screaming at her poor dd.

I doubt that there is anywhere where spanking is really rare...it may seem like it in places like San Francisco, but that's because it has become a bit more socially unacceptable (and totally unacceptable in progressive circles) so those that do it are less likely to talk about it or do it in public. It's a step. But I don't think we will see an end to spanking on a large scale until we renounce our culture of violence. Not likely to be soon.

I can't wait to move out of this condo.









Hmmm... are you sure you aren't in my building? This woman you describe sounds exactly like my neighbor..







:


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
She is so nice and friendly when we see her outside - she has no idea we can hear her at night, of course - and no one would guess what she is capable of screaming at her poor dd.

Wow! Do you think you could talk to her? Maybe tell her you heard her and you were worried, and you'd watch her dd or something for her? Maybe if she knew you were listening, it would encourage her to think of other ways to parent.


----------



## nznavo (Aug 9, 2004)

I don't know anyone who spanks, I don't think, and I've only seen it in public once. I was deeply shocked. It could be that there are spankers around me who do it privately, I guess. I am told that they still use physical punishment in schools here.

I live in Singapore. The area I'm in is a diverse mix of many nationalities.


----------



## celrae (May 3, 2005)

About half of the people I know do spank, even the AP moms. However, it is rarly done in public.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I have a friend who is ok with spanking (and was/is a spanker), but she told me one day (after a conversation on spanking) that her dd was so well behaved she didn't "need" spanked anymore, and that spanking didn't work on her ds. So she said she was going to STOP spanking her then 21 mo ds.

I have to imagine that some of my cousins on my dad's side spank occasionally. I'd be willing to bet money they don't see it as awful, and the probably see it as ok in certain situations. Hmmm...now I'll have to ask. I don't care if I cause a feud or not (I'm so bad lol)

I was on a mainstream board once talking about spanking, and was totally amazed at how many people defended it! Only ONE other than myself (out of 20-30 maybe?) said spanking was NOT OK! Everyone else, even if the didn't personally do it, said that it was a parent's choice. And of course, I got the "its necessary in some situations" crap.


----------



## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
I am shocked by these posts! I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. My community is very progressive, fairly wealthy and educated. I think spanking rates are lower generally among those groups. Or so some studies say. I hope I am not just negative stereotyping, but those really are the perceptions around here -- that people who hit their kids are somewhat ignorant.

I'm a little offended by this to be honest. I think this perception (that only progressive, wealthy people don't spank) perpetuates physical punishment. Whereas some people may not have the same resources or support systems to find others way other than to spank, I think it is a large sweeping generalization to say "progressive" people don't spank and "ignorant" people do. I am very against spanking but I think that people support it for a variety of reasons. And people that are very "progressive" in other ways wholeheartedly agree with spanking. And those that are "ignorant" may understand the inherent flaws in it.

I hear all the time that not spanking is "white people's discipline" or "rich people's discipline". If we keep saying those things, it creates a false cultural divide, IMO.

Kylix


----------



## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_betsy_*
I doubt I could go to a grocery store or Target or wherever without hearing someone threaten to hit their child, or see them do it. And I live in one of the wealthiest, most highly-educated counties in the country.

Well, things like "poor people are more likely to spank" are generalizations. It just means that on average, poorer and less educated people are more likely to use harsh discipline techniques. It doesn't mean every poor person hits their kids, and it doesn't mean college educated people never hit their kids. Everyone uses generalizations, it's a way to catergorize the world and makes explaining things, expecting things, and discussing things easier.









My dad has a college degree, owns a business, and we were well-off growing up, but we still got the occaisonal spanking from our parents. And so did our poorer neighbors (except they got spanked quite a bit more often for almost everything).

~Nay


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Yes, but not everyone agrees with those generalizations.


----------



## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Wow! Do you think you could talk to her? Maybe tell her you heard her and you were worried, and you'd watch her dd or something for her? Maybe if she knew you were listening, it would encourage her to think of other ways to parent.

I have planned to do this but I just can't, I have no idea what I would say or how to say it. None of the things I have thought about saying are possible for me to say to her. The words dry up on my tongue. I am spineless.







I guess since her outbursts seem to happen so infrequently these days it has really flown off my radar. I don't know what is the right thing to do anymore.

WitchyMama, are you in SD? Maybe you do live in my neighborhood! Or, sadly, this kind of thing is common.


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
I have planned to do this but I just can't, I have no idea what I would say or how to say it. None of the things I have thought about saying are possible for me to say to her. The words dry up on my tongue. I am spineless.







I guess since her outbursts seem to happen so infrequently these days it has really flown off my radar. I don't know what is the right thing to do anymore.









You're not spineless! It's really hard to do something like that.


----------



## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kylix*
I'm a little offended by this to be honest. I think this perception (that only progressive, wealthy people don't spank) perpetuates physical punishment. Whereas some people may not have the same resources or support systems to find others way other than to spank, I think it is a large sweeping generalization to say "progressive" people don't spank and "ignorant" people do. I am very against spanking but I think that people support it for a variety of reasons. And people that are very "progressive" in other ways wholeheartedly agree with spanking. And those that are "ignorant" may understand the inherent flaws in it.

I hear all the time that not spanking is "white people's discipline" or "rich people's discipline". If we keep saying those things, it creates a false cultural divide, IMO.

Kylix

Like I said, it is a generalization and seems to be the predominant perception where I live. I have also seen studies that reflect this divide (and other, cultural tendenies). It just means that, on AVERAGE, some groups tend to hit children more than others. Not that all poor people hit or no wealthy people do. Or that all members of any one cultural group do or don't.

There are, of course, many exceptions. And I do realize that people have differential access to education and resources (may be a cause of some of these differences?). I don't mean to categorize anyone here and I certainly am not trying to offend. I just wanted to share the overwhelming perception (or MY perception of the perception) in my community.


----------



## lilylove (Apr 10, 2003)

When posting please keep our Forum Guielines in mind

Quote:

Welcome to Gentle Discipline. This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.

Quote:
Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara

Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.

Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=113264

Thanks


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I have a daycare, and I deal with about 20 families per year. I only have one family that I know spanks. They also yell, and belittle their kids.

Guess who are my most challenging kids????????

Edited for miswording.


----------



## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chanley*
But Gentle Discipline is a deal breaker with AP in my opinion. You simply cannot AP if you can defend spanking as a choice in your parenting tool box. There is NOTHING attachment forming in hitting another person.

To me AP is recognizing that breastfeeding, co-sleeping, babywearing and gentle discipline are the way it should be.

In my opinion, seeing AP or other helpful parenting movements as having elements that are "deal breakers" is potentially dogmatic (and here, I think actually dogmatic) and not helpful. I think if someone seeking to learn from the AP movement is exposed to this type of thinking, she may very well decide not to read things labeled "AP" any more or associate with people who call themselves AP. In fact I would hazard to guess that this would be a majority reaction.

There are many things that are not attachment forming and many things that are. We bring gifts and weaknesses, resources and strengths, to our parent/child relationships. What is the good of dogma?

I certainly think AP is not a religion, and until I guess some hours after ruminating on this post, I would have used the phrase as a useful phrase to describe my own parenting style. Now, I don't want to be associated with the label AP. Maybe I will change my mind later, but actually as I age, I become more confident living without labels at all, so probably not.

It is certainly wonderful when we can guide our children with words and affection and upright example.


----------



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Noras mom....we dealt with a similar situation with a horribly abusive man and his pitiful girlfriend. we were living side by side in townhouses, and omg...i did call 911 one night bc he was trying to kill her. throwing her down the stairs...etc

here is what i said...in a normal way, (and they were NOT sociable!) i said " Hi! I was wondering if we've been keeping you up lately? My dc has had -----whatever, teething, nightmares, make something up!--------and i hope we havent disturbed you! you know, we share that bedroom wall, and you can hear EVERYthing through those walls! Just wanted to make sure we werent bothering you??"

This would be done in a totally nonchalant way, and let her know that you CAN hear, without putting her on the spot.


----------



## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Peacelovingmama,

I'm well aware of those studies. The masters thesis I'm currently working on actually sites them as references.

To me, it's one thing to look at the data and site statistics about prevalence. It's another thing to say "progressive" people do this and "ignorant" people do that. I know what you meant and I don't mean to nitpick or pick on you but I think these statements and the false use of those very prevalence studies perpetuate the use of physical punishment. People begin to think "hey, maybe it's true that only wealthy, progressive people don't spank. I am not wealthy and that's not the way I parent and that's okay because I belong to a different group." Sounds goofy but I have run into people (in my own circle of friends and family) who take on such a notion--that not spanking is a luxury for only rich, progressive white people.

Prevalence studies or not, I think it's time to put the generalizations away so that everyone knows that they can parent differently and it's okay.

Kylix


----------



## MammaKoz (Dec 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
I'm in Southern Ontario, Canada, and some of these posts shock me.









:

I'm in Southern Alberta, Canada and I have to agree with the above. I can honestly say I have never seen anyone here where I live spank their child, tell their child off or anything. Maybe I am living in a bubble because I am a GD parent, but I just can't see it being tolerated here, or if a child was getting a spanking anyone looking on with satisfaction that the parent was doing "something" about it etc, yk? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but that I've never seen it happen around me or in public.

Reading through some of these posts and the idea in some communities that spanking is okay, accepted and touted as an effective form of discipline (not by MDC members but the people who live around them etc) actually made me almost speechless for once







and that doesn't happen very often.


----------



## Softmama (Jun 10, 2003)

I didn't have time to read all the replies.
I honestly don't have a single friend who does not spank. I live in South Carolina and that just seems to be the way it is here. I am considered a freak for not spanking my kids. Most of the people I know hit their kids with objects (belts, wooden spoons, etc). I have one friend who pinches instead of spanks???
They hit them in front of anybody. It kills me. What is worse, my DH is pro-spanking and though he for the most part defers to my wishes on that, he is constantly giving me grief about it








I totally need to start reading this section of the boards. I haven't been here much, but the reinforcement would be nice.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaKoz*
I can honestly say I have never seen anyone here where I live spank their child, tell their child off or anything. Maybe I am living in a bubble because I am a GD parent, but I just can't see it being tolerated here, or if a child was getting a spanking anyone looking on with satisfaction that the parent was doing "something" about it etc, yk? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but that I've never seen it happen around me or in public.

I live in an area like that too -- that's what prompted me to start this post. I think the fact that I seem to live in a non-spanking "bubble" colors the way I perceive many posts that I read here. I tend to think that people are being oversensitive when they say that they get so much criticism for GDing their kids, and I'm realizing as I'm reading these posts that maybe in some (most?) cases, they aren't being oversensitive -- they actually live in a community that looks down on GDing and condones corporeal punishment.

It's just interesting to examine how my reaction to those posts was so skewed by my personal experience (or, in this case, lack thereof). That's the great thing about sites like this -- it exposes us to many different points of view and allows us to learn through others' experiences as well as our own. Thanks for all the eye-opening replies!


----------



## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Bamamom, EXCELLENT idea. If I could just trust myself to say it 'naturally'...I am so self-conscious that I would probably stutter and turn red and it would just be ridiculous...but I suppose as long as she gets the idea and we both save face, that's the important thing. I'll be looking for an opportunity...but my pulse rises whenever I see this woman, and frankly she kind of scares me with her Jekyll and Hyde act, so I don't know if I'll be able to follow through. DH said at one point he was going to talk to the dad (the dd's grandpa, who owns the condo, who always tries to make small talk w/ us) but then he didn't see him for a long time and meanwhile all was quiet on the other side of the wall so DH thought we didn't need to bother talking to them.

I wish there was some socially acceptable way I could give her a parenting book or something, but there really isn't.


----------



## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Softmama*
What is worse, my DH is pro-spanking and though he for the most part defers to my wishes on that, he is constantly giving me grief about it









That describes us as well. DH is very pro spanking but has yet to even come close to losing his temper with DD. He typically looks to me to decide what should be done in a particular situation. He keeps saying that I'll cave and I'll be the first to spank, but I am trying my damnest to make sure that doesn't happen! I don't want to be one of those moms...


----------



## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kylix*
Peacelovingmama,

I'm well aware of those studies. The masters thesis I'm currently working on actually sites them as references.

To me, it's one thing to look at the data and site statistics about prevalence. It's another thing to say "progressive" people do this and "ignorant" people do that. I know what you meant and I don't mean to nitpick or pick on you but I think these statements and the false use of those very prevalence studies perpetuate the use of physical punishment. People begin to think "hey, maybe it's true that only wealthy, progressive people don't spank. I am not wealthy and that's not the way I parent and that's okay because I belong to a different group." Sounds goofy but I have run into people (in my own circle of friends and family) who take on such a notion--that not spanking is a luxury for only rich, progressive white people.

Prevalence studies or not, I think it's time to put the generalizations away so that everyone knows that they can parent differently and it's okay.

Kylix

I appreciate your viewpoint. To clarify, however, I wasn't personally saying that progressive people don't hit and only ignorant people do. I was merely stating that that is a perception/stereotype in my community. For better or worse, that is the perception where I live. I have encountered it many times.

Also, I don't think of hitting kids as just "parenting differently." I think it is unacceptable period and we need to address the underlying cultural, socioeconomic and educational factors in order to successfully address the problem (i.e., pave the way to abolition). And find ways to reach communities where hitting is still widespread and acceptable. If the studies are valid, and wealthier, more educated people do hit less, then we should ask why. What is is that we aren't doing, that we SHOULD be doing to reach poorer, less educated communities?

I would ask the same question about bfing rates. IF there is a community that bfs less, what can we do to disseminate information and offer education and support. I don't think that recognizing certain cultural or socioeconomic tendencies is necessarily a bad thing.

I do see your point in that stereotyping is a dangerous thing and the goal is not to be divisive or alientate people. But maybe people viewing hitting kids as something "ignorant" people do isn't such a bad thing? Maybe that perception could help ease hitting kids gradually out of our culture. After all, the countries that have already banned hitting children do not look favorably upon those who do.

ETA: I have never encountered the view before that people would justify hitting because they think that wealthy, educated people do not do it. I wonder if this might follow naming trends a bit . . . when names become popular among the wealthy, they slowly catch on among the middle class and poor. Cultural influences will play a role, for sure, but I sure would like people to have negative connotations with violence against children, and to aspire to not be violent.


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
I wish there was some socially acceptable way I could give her a parenting book or something, but there really isn't.

How about this? Go to the thrift store, buy some cute clothes that look like they would fit her child, and some cute used toys. Then buy a used copy of your favorite parenting book, the one that you think seems the most accesible to her, on Amazon. Put it all in a paper bag, go over to her apartment and say, "Hey, my friend gave me this stuff left over for her kid, but I don't want to keep it around forever since it doesn't fit my kid, (or insert plausible excuse here), so I was wondering if you wanted it. And I've read this book, it's great, I love it, have you already read it?"

I've done a modified version of this, and am thinking about doing it again with another friend.


----------



## hellyaellen (Nov 8, 2005)

well i still believe that it is a journey. i mean you take it out of your toolbox but you know its still in your garage. for me its started with me not wanting to spank. prefering other means of discipline. learning what else to do. or sometimes learning that i don't have to do anything. ykwim?

i do believe that gd is a basic part of ap. and even though ap is not a religion and its basic concepts are not commandments its like with the ten commandments most people have a trouble spot (or several).

and for those of us who grew up being spanked and seeing physical punishment in our environments well it was modeling. negative modeling .


----------



## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean*
I live in an area like that too -- that's what prompted me to start this post. I think the fact that I seem to live in a non-spanking "bubble" colors the way I perceive many posts that I read here.


Quote:

Originally Posted by MammaKoz
I can honestly say I have never seen anyone here where I live spank their child, tell their child off or anything. Maybe I am living in a bubble because I am a GD parent, but I just can't see it being tolerated here, or if a child was getting a spanking anyone looking on with satisfaction that the parent was doing "something" about it etc, yk? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but that I've never seen it happen around me or in public.
Ditto. I've been pretty amazed at how some people describe mainstream parenting here, describing horrendous acts as typical mainstream parenting, that certainly haven't been anywhere close to mainstream since I've been an adult (more so when I was a kid, people definitely spank less in Canada now than when I was young) I do know some people who spank, but they'd never do it in public, it's totally not socially acceptable behavior here. Amazing how different some regions are.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
Ditto. I've been pretty amazed at how some people describe mainstream parenting here, describing horrendous acts as typical mainstream parenting, that certainly haven't been anywhere close to mainstream since I've been an adult...

True! I consider myself slightly more toward the AP side of the AP/mainstream continuum, but I find myself getting almost offended when I read posts saying things like, "Oh, you know how those mainstream moms are, they always <insert appalling act here>." I think, "Really? 'Cuz I'm kinda mainstream, and most of my friends and family are even more mainstream, and none of us have ever even thought of doing that."

This thread really has been a huge eye opener. Our definitions of "AP," "mainstream," "normal," etc. are definitely dependent on our direct experience. I guess I knew this, but it's really interesting to see it laid out so clearly here.


----------



## alley cat (Mar 18, 2006)

My sister did to her kids , my brother does to his, my friends do , more people than not you really are a minority if you don't spank , even those that say they don't I have seen them doing it.







:
I am not perfect in this area either my daughter was spank till I knew better and I lost it with my son once; the reason I found myself here.
But as the saying goes " You did what you thought was best , when you knew better you did better".


----------



## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey*
In my opinion, seeing AP or other helpful parenting movements as having elements that are "deal breakers" is potentially dogmatic (and here, I think actually dogmatic) and not helpful. I think if someone seeking to learn from the AP movement is exposed to this type of thinking, she may very well decide not to read things labeled "AP" any more or associate with people who call themselves AP. In fact I would hazard to guess that this would be a majority reaction.


Then I say, if you cannot walk the walk, don't talk the talk. Nothing irritates me more than someone saying they are AP when they hit thier kids. That is not the example that young women should see. When you are AP, you should aim to do your best, not defend your poor choices but rather aim to do better next time and be an example for those just beginning thier journey.

There have been many aspects of AP that have been the more difficult road for me. It has always been the high road, but it was a more challenging path. It would have been so much easier to stick them in a crib and let them cry. It would be so much easier to react with a quick slap rather than REALLY think about what is happening in an out of control dynamic. I am PROUD to call myself AP. It is challenging but I do it! Some folks are not up to that challenge, so I guess it is a good thing I am not the one handing out the babies and deciding who gets to have them.

Only love prevails.


----------



## Ozzy'sMama (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaKoz*







:

I'm in Southern Alberta, Canada and I have to agree with the above. I can honestly say I have never seen anyone here where I live spank their child, tell their child off or anything. Maybe I am living in a bubble because I am a GD parent, but I just can't see it being tolerated here, or if a child was getting a spanking anyone looking on with satisfaction that the parent was doing "something" about it etc, yk? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but that I've never seen it happen around me or in public.

Reading through some of these posts and the idea in some communities that spanking is okay, accepted and touted as an effective form of discipline (not by MDC members but the people who live around them etc) actually made me almost speechless for once







and that doesn't happen very often.

I wish I could agree with you guys. I live in Ontario. I posted earlier about how common it is for people to use phrases like, "you want a smack? or Do it again and you'll get a stinger." I'd love to live in a town where everyone felt that assaulting your children wasn't okay. People are getting smart these days though. Lots of the Hitters I know wouldn't dare do it in public. Just like they won't leave their babes alone in the car.....unless no one is watching.

Maybe I need to move to your area!

Sara & Oscar (04/11/26)


----------



## Shirelle (May 22, 2006)

I know very few people who do not spank. At a LLL playgroup we had we were actually having the discussion about LLL's stances on discipline. Come to find out, every one of us had spanked at some point.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ozzy'sMama*
I wish I could agree with you guys. I live in Ontario. I posted earlier about how common it is for people to use phrases like, "you want a smack? or Do it again and you'll get a stinger." I'd love to live in a town where everyone felt that assaulting your children wasn't okay. People are getting smart these days though. Lots of the Hitters I know wouldn't dare do it in public. Just like they won't leave their babes alone in the car.....unless no one is watching.

Maybe I need to move to your area!

Sara & Oscar (04/11/26)

What part of Ontario do you live in? You can pm me if you want.


----------



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

LLL has been an eye opener for me....most of the moms are pretty GD, with a few extreme exceptions..

this one little boy who is around three...he started climbing on the tables. Suddenly, his mom jumped up, THREW her baby at someone to hold, and was instantly chasing him , all the while RIPPING HER WHITE LEATHER STUDDED BELT OFF. She proceeded to chase him, with him in absolute terror....i couldnt believe the look on his face. Fortunately she didnt actually hit him, just yelled and threatened him.

Everyone was kind of speechless....my dear friend sitting nearby actually said.." My hair is standing on end...."

I hope my children never have cause to look at me in terror....


----------



## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chanley*
Then I say, if you cannot walk the walk, don't talk the talk. Nothing irritates me more than someone saying they are AP when they hit thier kids. That is not the example that young women should see. When you are AP, you should aim to do your best, not defend your poor choices but rather aim to do better next time and be an example for those just beginning thier journey.

.

I do have to say I agree with this. It's one thing to say that you are striving to parent in an attachment mode and that you have made mistakes --- e.g., hit your kids, CIO, circ'ed without knowing better, ffed for no reason other than ignorance of the benefits of bfing, etc. I don't judge those people and I do think they can still strive to attachment parent.

But to defend hitting as attachment parenting is the same to me as to say that CIO, circ, not holding a baby much, etc. fosters attachment. I just can't get on-board with that. I have seen people with big smilies and icons proclaiming to be AP and also defending hitting kids. Huge disconnect, if you ask me.







:


----------



## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
I do have to say I agree with this. It's one thing to say that you are striving to parent in an attachment mode and that you have made mistakes --- e.g., hit your kids, CIO, circ'ed without knowing better, ffed for no reason other than ignorance of the benefits of bfing, etc. I don't judge those people and I do think they can still strive to attachment parent.

But to defend hitting as attachment parenting is the same to me as to say that CIO, circ, not holding a baby much, etc. fosters attachment. I just can't get on-board with that. I have seen people with big smilies and icons proclaiming to be AP and also defending hitting kids. Huge disconnect, if you ask me.







:

I agree with peacelovingmama and Chenley.

Actually it always puzzled me when parents limit attachment to physical attachment - breastfeeding, slinging, cloth diapering etc., (which are wonderfull things, don't get me wrong), and then all of a sudden de-attach themselves from the kid emotionally when s/he becomes "old enough" to voice their opinion...


----------



## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
I do have to say I agree with this. It's one thing to say that you are striving to parent in an attachment mode and that you have made mistakes --- e.g., hit your kids, CIO, circ'ed without knowing better, ffed for no reason other than ignorance of the benefits of bfing, etc. I don't judge those people and I do think they can still strive to attachment parent.

But to defend hitting as attachment parenting is the same to me as to say that CIO, circ, not holding a baby much, etc. fosters attachment. I just can't get on-board with that. I have seen people with big smilies and icons proclaiming to be AP and also defending hitting kids. Huge disconnect, if you ask me.







:

These follow ups do sound awfully dogmatic and it does not seem to be a view that Attachment Parenting International wants promoted:

From http://www.attachmentparenting.org/faqap.shtml#all

Quote:

Do I have to practice all of the attachment parenting ideals to be an attachment parent?

No. We recognize that families have various circumstances in their lives that may preclude them from practicing all the attachment parenting "ideals". We also want parents to know that AP is not a "one size fits all" formula for parenting. What we want parents to understand is the core emotional and psychological needs babies have, even before birth. Parents who recognize these needs will make decisions based on what their child needs, not on what the parenting books or other experts say you must do. Attachment parenting comes from the heart. As a sensitive parent you will be sensitive to what your child needs regardless of your life circumstances.
To those of you who see yourselves as leaders of the AP movement, and want people shunned who believe they are part of the movement but do strive to practice API's ideal # 7 of 8 (positive discipline) 100% of the time, perhaps you should send a strongly worded letter to API.


----------



## Faerieshadow (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey*
These follow ups do sound awfully dogmatic and it does not seem to be a view that Attachment Parenting International wants promoted:

From http://www.attachmentparenting.org/faqap.shtml#all

Quote:

Do I have to practice all of the attachment parenting ideals to be an attachment parent?

No. We recognize that families have various circumstances in their lives that may preclude them from practicing all the attachment parenting "ideals". We also want parents to know that AP is not a "one size fits all" formula for parenting. *What we want parents to understand is the core emotional and psychological needs babies have, even before birth. Parents who recognize these needs will make decisions based on what their child needs, not on what the parenting books or other experts say you must do. Attachment parenting comes from the heart. As a sensitive parent you will be sensitive to what your child needs regardless of your life circumstances.*

To those of you who see yourselves as leaders of the AP movement, and want people shunned who believe they are part of the movement but do strive to practice API's ideal # 7 of 8 (positive discipline) 100% of the time, perhaps you should send a strongly worded letter to API.

First of all, I see the above quote (emphasis mine) as discussing a child's needs. I'm sure we can agree that no child _needs_ to be hit, so to me it seems a moot point to suggest that API would think it "ok" to spank in any situation, for any parent. Second of all, there is a huge difference between a parent who is striving to use GD and sometimes fails, and a parent who practices other aspects of AP and yet thinks spanking is ok. Spanking is not ok. Spanking promotes fear and detachment, obviously the opposite of AP ideals. The above quote, IMO, refers to instances such as a child who sleeps better on their own rather than cosleeping, or a child who hates the confinement of being slinged.


----------



## Qtopia (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey*
These follow ups do sound awfully dogmatic and it does not seem to be a view that Attachment Parenting International wants promoted:

From http://www.attachmentparenting.org/faqap.shtml#all

To those of you who see yourselves as leaders of the AP movement, and want people shunned who believe they are part of the movement but do strive to practice API's ideal # 7 of 8 (positive discipline) 100% of the time, perhaps you should send a strongly worded letter to API.

I think there is some miscommunication going on here. IMO, at least, there is a HUGE difference between someone who calls themselves AP and says "Physical punishment is a great and effective form of discipline" and someone who calls themselves AP and says "I strive for GD but sometimes I screw up and hit". I don't have a problem with the latter, and I think that is what the API statement is saying (and I *think* that is what you are saying). None of us is perfect. But when we make a *mistake* and use physical punishment, we *recognize that it is a mistake* and strive to be better.

The former attitude- that physical punishment CAN promote attachment, is flat-out wrong, and I have yet to hear a reputable, non-Christian parenting author (AP or mainstream) say otherwise.


----------



## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

I will e-mail API and ask them their position regarding a parent calling themselves AP. I think it would be most productive to move this to its own thread.


----------



## Qtopia (Dec 24, 2002)

I am a happy, active member of API.









But, they are not the be-all and end-all of attachment parenting. They are not the "keepers" of AP or the originators of the term/movement. Which is why I'm a little perplexed as to why you are even contacting them.







What is your purpose is doing that? And how is it even relevant to this discussion? The way you are describing it, pigpokey, makes them sound like they are some kind of cult and we have to take all their official stances as just that, official. Hooey.


----------



## familylove (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey*
I will e-mail API and ask them their position regarding a parent calling themselves AP. I think it would be most productive to move this to its own thread.

As other posts have suggested, I believe the idea that spanking is "Ok" cannot possibly fit in with the concept of AP. It is totally conterintuitive to the idea of forming a bond b/t child and parents, IMO. How can a child possibly trust their parents when the threat of physical violence looms on the horizon if they do something that displeases their parents? If API truly has a different stance on this issue, I have no problem distancing myself from API and not promoting those values.

We often talk about parental instincts guiding our AP decisions. I think anyone that listens to their heart, regardless of what various organizations may or may not advocate, knows that physical punishment is never a permanent solution to a problem. Of course we all have moments when we lose sight of our parenting goals and enforce punishments that normally would be considered off limits. But there is a definite difference b/t losing one's cool once a great while and thinking its OK by AP standards to use physical discipline as part of one's parenting.


----------



## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

Lets call a spade a spade.

The real issue here is that some people call themselves AP and STILL consider hitting a useful tool in disciplining thier child. Spanking and AP do not go together. AP parents try to STOP spanking if they do it at all. They strive to find more attachment forming ways of communicating with thier child/ren.

So when you email API, make sure you just ask them what thier stance is on the usefulness of corporal punishment within the boundaries of AP. Let's not cloud the issue with defensive blather.


----------



## Faerieshadow (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey*
I will e-mail API and ask them their position regarding a parent calling themselves AP. I think it would be most productive to move this to its own thread.

I think this is way off track, but I'm going to answer it anyway. Of course you can't stop anyone from _calling_ themselves AP. The point is, someone who refers to themselves as AP should be making a sincere effort to actually _be_ AP. And spanking without remorse is most certainly not making an effort to be AP. However, it is completely understandable that those of us who are so strongly against spanking do not appreciate others touting their skewed version of AP as being attachment forming.


----------



## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey*
I will e-mail API and ask them their position regarding a parent calling themselves AP. I think it would be most productive to move this to its own thread.

I don't give a flying fig what the API or any other organization says, *hitting a child has absolutely no place in the practices of attachment parenting*. Hitting does not promote trust or attachment or love or respect. Hitting severs attachment, teaches a child they cannot trust unconditionally, teaches fear and disrepect. I invite anyone to argue that hitting promotes attachment and trust.


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
Actually it always puzzled me when parents limit attachment to physical attachment - breastfeeding, slinging, cloth diapering etc., (which are wonderfull things, don't get me wrong), and then all of a sudden de-attach themselves from the kid emotionally when s/he becomes "old enough" to voice their opinion...

Okay, I'm sorry to be totally OT here, but I've seen this said before, and I just have to ask, how does cloth diapering promote attachment?


----------



## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:

I just have to ask, how does cloth diapering promote attachment?
It doesn't. Cloth diapering is NFL not AP, but AP and NFL go hand in hand so often that we all tend to lump it together because it's just part of the way a lot of us live.


----------



## mamapajama (Feb 9, 2003)

I only know one mom who spanks, although I am willing to bet I know others who are just quiet about the fact that they spank. I feel like in my neck of the woods, it is not socially acceptable to spank anyone.

Also, I think if I let her, my MIL would absolutely love to spank my kids.


----------



## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chanley*
Lets call a spade a spade.

The real issue here is that some people call themselves AP and STILL consider hitting a useful tool in disciplining thier child. Spanking and AP do not go together. AP parents try to STOP spanking if they do it at all. They strive to find more attachment forming ways of communicating with thier child/ren.

So when you email API, make sure you just ask them what thier stance is on the usefulness of corporal punishment within the boundaries of AP. Let's not cloud the issue with defensive blather.

Nope, that's a completely separate issue and one we very specifically do not debate on this forum. The issue is whether it is useful or not useful to the AP movement to have one or more "deal breakers." API is one source of leadership in the AP movement. They seem to say quite clearly, you can still call yourself an "attachment parent" if you do not meet ideals.

Remember you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chanley
But Gentle Discipline is a deal breaker with AP in my opinion. You simply cannot AP if you can defend spanking as a choice in your parenting tool box. There is NOTHING attachment forming in hitting another person.
You have every right to this well considered opinion, and whether one particular source of leadership among many agrees with you or not, does not make your opinion less valid. It simply shows disagreement among leadership.

I'll restate my position: If we want more children slept with, kept in close proximity to their primary caregiver in their tender years, held close, given positive discipline, etc., I don't think having deal breakers shunning parents from calling themselves AP is helpful.

I hear that you do because, as you stated, you think it sets a bad example for young women.

Did I hear something wrong?


----------



## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Most of the parents I _know_ spank, most of the parents I _associate with_ do not spank. I don't tend to have a lot in common with people who think hitting children is acceptable. It's only one aspect of their lives, but it tells you a lot about their opinions on many other things, usually.


----------



## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Qtopia*
I am a happy, active member of API.









But, they are not the be-all and end-all of attachment parenting. They are not the "keepers" of AP or the originators of the term/movement. Which is why I'm a little perplexed as to why you are even contacting them.







What is your purpose is doing that? And how is it even relevant to this discussion? The way you are describing it, pigpokey, makes them sound like they are some kind of cult and we have to take all their official stances as just that, official. Hooey.

I don't feel that way at all (cult reference). I think they are one major source of leadership. They have put a great deal of thought into defining ideals of the movement and defining the movement. Clearly there are others who have done so also including board members.


----------



## Qtopia (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey*
I'll restate my position: If we want more children slept with, kept in close proximity to their primary caregiver in their tender years, held close, given positive discipline, etc., I don't think having deal breakers shunning parents from calling themselves AP is helpful.

If that's your argument, I have to say "No thanks." I want all those things you describe, *but I am not willing to have them by allowing people to think that beating their kids is okay*.

If that makes me dogmatic, so be it. I'd rather be dogmatic than condone physical punishment.


----------



## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey*

To those of you who see yourselves as leaders of the AP movement, and want people shunned who believe they are part of the movement but do strive to practice API's ideal # 7 of 8 (positive discipline) 100% of the time, perhaps you should send a strongly worded letter to API.

I don't view myself as a "leader of the AP movement" and I certainly am not arguing for anyone being "shunned." I generally don't like labels anyway. My point was that, sure people can strive to AP parent (and should!) and yet still make all sorts of mistakes. But to affirmatively argue that those mistakes foster attachment is just wrong. Hitting does NOT foster attachment. It is not something to rationalize or strive for. No matter what API says.

As someone else stated, I do not judge parents who lose it and hit. Who decided to ff without knowing the benefits of breasmilk. Who circ'ed without full disclosure. But I wouldn't try to rationalize those things as fostering attachment. They don't. That is what I personally have a problem with, not imperfect people striving for AP (like myself!). The people who argue that hitting IS AP are the ones making the big disconnect, IMO.

So while one can certainly self-identify with AP without practicing every tenet, I just can't get comfortable with rationalizing hitting as falling under the AP umbrella. For example, I might say that I follow most AP tenets but have never cloth-diapered. I would not defend disposable diapers as falling under the AP umbrella (not sure this is the best example but it's all I could think of at the moment). But I do still consider myself to strive for attachment parenting (I don't like labels much so I don't really call myself an "AP'er"). I hope that clarifies where I am coming from.


----------



## chann96 (May 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Qtopia*
If that's your argument, I have to say "No thanks." I want all those things you describe, *but I am not willing to have them by allowing people to think that beating their kids is okay*.

If that makes me dogmatic, so be it. I'd rather be dogmatic than condone physical punishment.









:

I see this argument about other issues as well - well we should soften our stance so more people will feel comfortable joining our group. Once they join we can work on what they do wrong. In many cases compromise is correct and the most peaceful way to solve an issue, but there are also many instances where it is not the way to go and this is one of them.

I will be proud to call myself dogmatic here. You cannot condone spanking and be AP. If you condone it then it means you have no understanding of what it means to be attached to your child. The most basic premise of AP, to me, isn't about CDing, slinging, bf, or co-sleeping. It is respecting your child as a human being with all of the rights and emotions (hopefully) afforded to any other human being. Condoning hitting a child demonstrates that you do not respect that child so I see absolutely no way that said person can be at all attached to their child. They can call themselves "attached" all day long, but they aren't.

edited to add: You want to hear what someone in a position of leadership in AP circles think how about we go to Dr. Sears. Seeing as he coined the termed "attachment parenting" I think he qualifies as a leader in the field:

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/t062100.asp


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
For example, I might say that I follow most AP tenets but have never cloth-diapered. I would not defend disposable diapers as falling under the AP umbrella (not sure this is the best example but it's all I could think of at the moment).


Isn't the kind of diapers one uses irrelevant in terms of AP. I mean, its certainly NFL to use cloth. But I know for certain that my dd's were more comfortable in 'sposies (way less rashes in fact none) than they were when we used cloth at my SIL. She had all the best stuff but no matter, sposies kept my kids drier and more comfortable.

I certainly understand the environmental NFL reasons for using cloth, but how in the world does that foster more attachment?


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Isn't the kind of diapers one uses irrelevant in terms of AP. I mean, its certainly NFL to use cloth. But I know for certain that my dd's were more comfortable in 'sposies (way less rashes in fact none) than they were when we used cloth at my SIL. She had all the best stuff but no matter, sposies kept my kids drier and more comfortable.

I certainly understand the environmental NFL reasons for using cloth, but how in the world does that foster more attachment?

That's what I keep wondering, too! As long as their comfortable, I don't think kids give a crap what's on them, no pun intended. I doubt the type of diapers you choose is going to profoundly affect your child's psyche, but spanking them does.


----------



## jazluv99 (Jul 11, 2005)

i haven't had a chance to read all of the posts but i am here to say that spanking is still alive and strong where i live. in fact, when most people find out that i don't spank, they look at me like i'm a freak of nature. i'm one of six siblings and only two of us don't spank. my brother and SIL don't spank mainly because she's swedish. she said that it's not a common practice there and she couldn't imagine hitting her children. i have quite a few friends/acquaintances who seem very AP in most aspects and they still spank occasionally. alot of people from this area are misinformed by thinking that because you don't spank that your children just run amok. they think that somehow their children are better behaved b/c they're spanked. when our kids all get together, they all act pretty much the same (although many of the spanked kids are actually worse!). whenever they bring up spanking to me, i just point out that their kids don't act any better so obviously the spanking isn't more effective than what i do.


----------



## chann96 (May 13, 2004)

Somebody else answered this well earlier in the thread, but it may have gotten a little lost so I'll answer it here too.

It really has nothing to do with attachment to my way of thinking. It's NFL, but many people follow both and sort of use NFL examples in AP situations. It sounds to me like your decision was an AP one - you paid attention to how your child was most comfortable and went with that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Isn't the kind of diapers one uses irrelevant in terms of AP. I mean, its certainly NFL to use cloth. But I know for certain that my dd's were more comfortable in 'sposies (way less rashes in fact none) than they were when we used cloth at my SIL. She had all the best stuff but no matter, sposies kept my kids drier and more comfortable.

I certainly understand the environmental NFL reasons for using cloth, but how in the world does that foster more attachment?


----------



## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chann96*
edited to add: You want to hear what someone in a position of leadership in AP circles think how about we go to Dr. Sears. Seeing as he coined the termed "attachment parenting" I think he qualifies as a leader in the field:

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/t062100.asp

Ummm but this article is another example of AP leadership against the "deal breaker" approach to attachment parenting.


----------



## chann96 (May 13, 2004)

You know what - you're right and I rescind my endorsement of Dr. Sears on this topic.

I do not believe you can teach a child to be attached to you and to trust you if you hit them. And frankly, I find it difficult to see a situation where an attached parent would need or want to spank. Hitting my child would be like hitting myself and even with her extremely limited expressive language I have yet to have a situation so out of control that I even thought about hitting. Spanking is nothing more than hitting someone just because they are smaller and one can do it and it doesn't require actually paying attention to the situation and its roots and trying to actually solve the problem.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey*
Ummm but this article is another example of AP leadership against the "deal breaker" approach to attachment parenting.


----------



## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Isn't the kind of diapers one uses irrelevant in terms of AP. I mean, its certainly NFL to use cloth. But I know for certain that my dd's were more comfortable in 'sposies (way less rashes in fact none) than they were when we used cloth at my SIL. She had all the best stuff but no matter, sposies kept my kids drier and more comfortable.

I certainly understand the environmental NFL reasons for using cloth, but how in the world does that foster more attachment?

Probably, yes. And my example was not a very effective one. I think that may be why there is so much friction around this (hitting kids) topic. There are many decisions that are not technically "AP" but that don't necessarily destroy a parent's attachment to a child.

Disposable diapers, for instance. And ffing can be done with love and attachment. Even circ is a one-time decision that a parent may make without enough information (and regret) and a parent can still be very attached to a circ'ed child. But to rationalize hitting is to again and again violate a child. And to pretend that is o.k.

As so many have already stated, hiitting a child absolutely erodes attachment. I think that seeing people who claim to be AP but who actually defend violence against their kids really rubs people the wrong way.

Maybe like a self-proclaimed "feminist" (also a broad term with lots of manifestations) claiming that men should still have the right to hit women. Sure, feminists come in many forms and with many beliefs. But justifying violence against women? Just disconnect, huge disconnect! Same with "attachment" parenting and hitting children.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
There are many decisions that are not technically "AP" but that don't necessarily destroy a parent's attachment to a child.

Disposable diapers, for instance.


I 100 percent agree that hitting a child is simply not and can not be a part of AP.

I understand how formula feeding is "technically not AP' but can be done in a very loving and attached way.

*But please explain why using disposable diapers is "technically not AP"*


----------



## MoonJelly (Sep 10, 2004)

_Mama to one very Fockerized little boy._









I love your sig line, Finch! I love when Mrs. Focker says: _*I have been sneaking him hugs and chocolate.*_

Excellent!


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chann96*
I do not believe you can teach a child to be attached to you and to trust you if you hit them. And frankly, I find it difficult to see a situation where an attached parent would need or want to spank. Hitting my child would be like hitting myself and even with her extremely limited expressive language I have yet to have a situation so out of control that I even thought about hitting. Spanking is nothing more than hitting someone just because they are smaller and one can do it and it doesn't require actually paying attention to the situation and its roots and trying to actually solve the problem.

I think it's a pretty broad generalization to say that parents who spank have no attachment to their child. Or that their children don't trust them. I mean, it's just not that simple. I'm not arguing for spanking here, it does erode attachment, it does damage trust, but most often not to the complete destruction of the relationship.

And frankly, as an attached parent, there have been many, many situations where I have wanted to spank. I've never needed to (obviously), in all but one situation I've been able to resist, but I've still wanted to. I'm glad for you that you've never been so frustrated that you feel like lashing out, but many, many people have. Maybe that's what pigpokey's after, a little more acceptance of our humanity as parents.


----------



## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I 100 percent agree that hitting a child is simply not and can not be a part of AP.

I understand how formula feeding is "technically not AP' but can be done in a very loving and attached way.

*But please explain why using disposable diapers is "technically not AP"*

I thought cloth-diapering was one of the practices embraced by the AP community. But I could be wrong. I don't do it myself and I don't feel that it affects attachment. I really just wanted to use an example to show that I too don't follow every "tenet" of AP. But if I am wrong on this one, that is ok.

The important point is that hitting kids DESTROYS attachment. Other decisions (what you put on their bottoms, how you feed them, whether or not you surgically alter their genitals) do not do this, although I don't think they are embraced by the AP community (circ, ffing).


----------



## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
. Maybe that's what pigpokey's after, a little more acceptance of our humanity as parents.


I agree that this is a good thing! Some parents CIO, ff, circ, use cribs, hit, etc. and it doesn't mean they are bad parents. It does mean they are human. But when we are describing the ideal, what practices foster attachment, we simply cannot include hitting. So good parents may make mistakes. That still doesn't mean that hitting fosters attachment or is o.k.


----------



## Softmama (Jun 10, 2003)

jazluv99, I thought it was interesting that your SIL is Sweedish. One of my early memories (about age 9) was getting off a ferry boat with my parents in Sweden to see some of their friends. My brother had run off right as we were deboarding. My American dad found him and was livid, clearly about to spank, a police officer had stopped and was waching, and our Swedish friend ran over to my Dad to stop him. He was very respectful of my father but explained it was actually illegal to spank there and that he could get arrested.
Sadly, I was so used to spanking that the thought of it being illegal was just weird to me. I couldn't imagine a parent not spanking.
Anyway, now that I'm a parent I think it's absolutely fabulous that there are places like that in this world. So yay for Sweeden!


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Um, yeah, just catching up on this thread.

Spanking is not AP. Not not not. There is no way around that. I don't care if we exclude spankers as self-identifying as AP, in fact I think that is a good thing.

Spanking is not okay, and it is most certainly not attachment-promoting.


----------



## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*

Spanking is not AP. Not not not. There is no way around that. *I don't care if we exclude spankers as self-identifying as AP, in fact I think that is a good thing.*

Spanking is not okay, and it is most certainly not attachment-promoting.

Thank you for having the ovaries to say that! I agree completely.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I completely agree with thismama as usual.


----------



## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

I've witnessed my brother's GF smack their daughter (2 yrs old) over the last two years since she was born.







It pisses me off to no end and they KNOW how I feel about disciplining a child. It's not my brother, however, it's his GF that does the discipline in front of people and she isn't embarrassed to smack their little girl for just touching something that isn't her's. She's smacked her in the past when she grabbed a toy from one of my kids and I would be like "they're all kids, just let them play!!!" I can't stand it!! At 6 mos old my brother's GF was trying to teach her not to take toys from the older kids by smacking her hand and putting her in time out, 6 mos old!!!! They've watched me raise two kids in front of them for the past 11 years and know how I feel about it too and still don't seem to care.







:


----------



## hellyaellen (Nov 8, 2005)

if someone is trying to parent in an attatched manner then they would want to avoid spanking. however evryone comes from a different starting point ykwim?

if someone was raised by an ap parent, then i don't think spanking would occur to them as a means of discipline. but some of us are trying to overcome how we were raised and what the social norms are in our part of the world. not just that but some of us found ap when our kids were a little older. my oldest is 6 and i didn't have mdc til maybe this time last year. i nevr used spanking as my first line of discipline but i would have had no support for not spanking at all. now i'm in my own homw w/ just me dh and the kids so that makes it a little easier. but dd and i are still caught in the "cycle of violence". less and less though.

i'm one of the trying ones. i'm trying not to spank. i'm trying not to yell either. i think that can be just as bad. and having been on the gd forum a lot lately i'm starting to question time outs/sending her to her room. etc. i would nevr claim that spanking promotes attatchment though.

i am sort of lost at the moment as to how to get dd to mind. (and sometimes weather i need her to mind at all anyway) i don't want to dominate her. i don't want her to fear me but sometimes i want her to just go to bed or brush her teeth or whatever without all the drama and hassle ykwim?

so i'm still journeying.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I do think there is a difference between a parent who is trying to find alternate ways of discplining and a parent who think spanking is a-ok.


----------



## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Practically everyone I know spanks to some degree.

Some think it's _essential_ to a kid's spiritual and moral upbringing, and would never consider removing corporal punishment from their repertoire, no matter how many "secular studies" come out against the practice, no matter whether it becomes illegal, no matter what. These people frighten me a little.

Others take a more, "this is what's right for my family" approach, acknowleging that there are alternate methods of parenting.

Some reserve spanking for "emergency" situations; others use it as practically their only discipline method.

Some start in babyhood (!!!) while others start at the "age of reason," whenever that is. Some continue till their kids are older teens. Others stop sometime around puberty.

None of it is what I'd call attachment parenting. I miss the mark pretty regularly on the parenting gig, notably today, but I don't mind calling spanking "hitting a kid."


----------



## Faerieshadow (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
I think it's a pretty broad generalization to say that parents who spank have no attachment to their child. Or that their children don't trust them. I mean, it's just not that simple. I'm not arguing for spanking here, it does erode attachment, it does damage trust, but most often not to the complete destruction of the relationship.

And frankly, as an attached parent, there have been many, many situations where I have wanted to spank. I've never needed to (obviously), in all but one situation I've been able to resist, but I've still wanted to. I'm glad for you that you've never been so frustrated that you feel like lashing out, but many, many people have. Maybe that's what pigpokey's after, a little more acceptance of our humanity as parents.

I think the point has been missed here. From what I can tell, pigpokey has been arguing that parents who hit their children but who otherwise claim to follow AP practices should certainly be considered AP by the rest of the community. No one is saying that a parent trying their hardest but who has slipped up before is not AP, or that a parent who used to use hitting as a discipline tool but who is struggling to learn not to, is not AP. It is the _advocacy_ that spanking is "ok" and will not interfere with attachment that is being argued. I most certainly have gotten to the point where I feel like it would be easy just to spank my son to get him to stop whatever tantrum, etc. But thankfully I always realize that it is my own temper speaking - and how can my ds learn to control his temper if I can't control mine? Not only do I not physically assault my child in those situations but I also manage to empathize with him. THAT is attachment forming. Creating fear by hitting just is not anywhere on the AP spectrum, I'm a little baffled at the debate to be honest.


----------



## bellona (Feb 17, 2006)

I only read the first page, but I'm right there with everyone else. EVERYONE in my family spanks (xcept my sibs, but they don't have kids yet, and I think when they do 4 out of the 5 of them will not spank!!!







).

My grandmother tells me about how my ds spirit needs breaking and a few good smacks to the a$$ would do it, my other one told me about how she used to spank her kids so hard it hurt her and they'd just laugh - but then tells me that sometimes there's just nothing else you can do. My MIL says that sometimes kids need to be spanked even if they aren't doing anything really bad because it sends a jolt up their spine and resets their brain or some such nonsense







:

I have two IRL friends. One is pretty gentle most of the time, but her dh spanks and believes that it is necessary. The other I thought was pretty gentle, but she apparently puts soap in her dc's mouth and I don't know, but I have a sneaking suspicion that she has spanked before. I do know that she does little swats to their hands sometimes.

My best friend for YEARS and I drifted apart because when I told her and her dh that I had no intention of spanking my ds (he was 3 months at the time) and they laughed in my face and told me I was going to regret it and it wouldn't be long before I was bringing him over to get him 'straightened out'.

All my coworkers used to joke about 'fingerpainting that a$$' which I suppose is nicer than refering to it as "beating that a$$" which I hear alot more people say now. They laugh and joke about it and think it's funny.

I find alot of hostility from people who do spank that hear that I don't. On a scale of 1 to 10 in regards to behavior (10 being perfect) their kid can be a 3 and that's how they justify spanking. But for them to believe that not spanking is a legitimate way to raise a child they expect that my children will be about a 9 - very polite at all times, always listening, sitting knitting instead of running around the playground screaming with other kids. Otherwise they say "well, look, that isn't working for you. Your ds is socially innept" (heard that when we were discussing spanking while my ds decided that he wasn't going to play with a child who was calling him offensive names).


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hellyaellen*
if someone is trying to parent in an attatched manner then they would want to avoid spanking. however evryone comes from a different starting point ykwim?

Yes, ITA. But this does not mean spanking falls within the definition of AP. Parents who spank may be striving toward AP, or may include many other AP practices in their parenting. But the spanking itself is not AP, and I think including it is misleading and waters down the definition of AP so much as to render it useless.

As an aside, many of us who choose not to spank our children come from spanking or abusive backgrounds. And ITA that making differing choices from how we were raised can be very challenging. I know for me I often feel at a loss in parenting, because I have no models for how to parent that are respectful and non-abusive.


----------



## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellona*
I find alot of hostility from people who do spank that hear that I don't.

I've noticed this as well, even from family. I honestly believe it's because, deep down, they *know* it is wrong, even if they won't admit it. Therefore, in order to protect themselve from feeling guilty, they immediately put up a hostile front.


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting*
I've noticed this as well, even from family. I honestly believe it's because, deep down, they *know* it is wrong, even if they won't admit it. Therefore, in order to protect themselve from feeling guilty, they immediately put up a hostile front.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting*
I've noticed this as well, even from family. I honestly believe it's because, deep down, they *know* it is wrong, even if they won't admit it. Therefore, in order to protect themselve from feeling guilty, they immediately put up a hostile front.

ITA.

I don't think anyone thinks assaulting their child is an okay thing to do. I think ppl do it because of desperation, because they don't know a better way, because they haven't dealt with the pain of abuse from their own childhoods, etc. Hence the defensiveness.


----------



## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

API was very nice and chose not to take a more detailed position. (This was simply a discussion about what position persons leading the AP movement should take regarding the label Attachment Parent, and API was just one example of leadership.)

Here is what I wrote (to which they were responding):

Quote:


Dear Sir or Madam,

I am writing to request a clarification of API's position on one issue. (Not trying to be too formal; I tend to write this way for clarity. There's a discussion going on between friends and we could benefit from a clarification of API's position.)

Your FAQ says in part:
Do I have to practice all of the attachment parenting ideals to be an attachment parent?

No. We recognize that families have various circumstances in their lives that may preclude them from practicing all the attachment parenting "ideals". We also want parents to know that AP is not a "one size fits all" formula for parenting. What we want parents to understand is the core emotional and psychological needs babies have, even before birth. Parents who recognize these needs will make decisions based on what their child needs, not on what the parenting books or other experts say you must do. Attachment parenting comes from the heart. As a sensitive parent you will be sensitive to what your child needs regardless of your life circumstances.

Please clarify as follows.

True or false: From API's viewpoint, a parent may "be an attachment parent" even if she does not ASPIRE to any one or two of the parenting ideals.

True or false: From API's viewpoint, a parent may "be an attachment parent" if she chooses to use positive discipline, but also chooses to use noncorporeal punishment.

True or false: From API's viewpoint, a parent may "be an attachment parent" if she chooses to use positive discipline sometimes, but also chooses to use punishment sometimes, whether spanking or nonviolent.

The two positions in our discussion can be summarized as follows:

AP community leadership should not promote "deal breakers" (such as spanking) defining an Attachment Parent; such are dogmatic and unhelpful in expanding the various good practices of ideals of the AP movement.
versus
AP community leadership should discourage parents who choose to spank from referring to themselves as Attachment Parents, because for example, these parents set a bad example for others. This is true whether or not such parents co-sleep, nurse, practice many aspects of positive discipline, avoid separations, are in high touch relationships, etc.
I have pointed to your FAQ to show that API would support of the first of the two positions.


----------

