# At my wits end with oldest ds



## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

He's 20 and will NOT quit smoking in the house and it it making me want to really really smack him.

I wake up in the middle of the night because I can smell it - he's downstairs smoking. He smokes while I'm at work. I tell him not to and he says OK and then just keeps doing it. I've reasoned with him, gotten mad at him, thrown out his smokes, his lighter, not spoken to him for days, nothing works. He spends a few days smoking in the garage and next thing I know he's back in the house. How do I punish an adult who simply ignores the rules like that??? He works 35 or so hours a week and other than that he's home almost all the time, in the basement, playing WoW. And smoking. My house smells disgusting and I am SICK of it. Right now I just want to puke the smell is so gross.

I can't make him do anything - that simply doesn't work. Hasn't for a few years now. I need to come up with a way to make him want to do it, or for it to be more uncomfortable for him to do not it than do it, if I want him to do anything.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Would a really good air purifier and containing smoking to one room work?

He should pay for the air purifyer as it is his habit (although Christmas is coming!)

Does he say he wants to quit?

Kathy


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## hillymum (May 15, 2003)

I'm sorry but I would kick him out! If he has money to burn then he can find his own place to polute. Sounds harsh but why put up with someone who shows you no respect?


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Maybe my way of thinking is not in line with MDC standards, but....he's 20, right? Old enough to find his own apartment if he wants to smoke indoors.

I'm with Hillymum. Except I don't think it sounds harsh at all.


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## Katie T (Nov 8, 2008)

I second the pp that said to kick him out. It is harsh but thats showing too much disreapect imo. Maybe just the threat of ir will be enought to get him to listen. Hugs & good luck!


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## bethanyclaire (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hillymum* 
I'm sorry but I would kick him out! If he has money to burn then he can find his own place to polute. Sounds harsh but why put up with someone who shows you no respect?











I have to agree. If you have given him numerous opportunities to comply with the rules and he refuses to then I would ask him to leave. I think living with adult children needs to be based on mutual respect. If that respect does not exist it is time for the child to move on and set up their own home and their own rules. If his life is made too easy (like being able to sit around and play WoW all day) then he will never learn to grow up and take responsibility for his actions and for his life. In that way I think you are actually doing him a disservice. It is time for him to grow up... whether he likes it or not!

Sorry, mama... this must be really tough for you!


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Ha! I knew someone whould say "kick him out" and in the course of 15 minutes 4 posters did









I must say there are offenses that are "kick out worthy" but is smoking one of them? This is something you have to decide for yourself.

I think talking to him is in order. Find out if he wants to quit. Have him brainstorm solution to the issues. Having to go outside to smoke may be something he comes up with on his own - as "smoking being inconvenient" does cut down on smoking for some people.

If he does not want to quit - but is willing to smoke in one room only and the air purifier works - problem solved.

If he continues to smoke everywhere in the house or if the air purifier does not help, you could bring up the topic of getting his own place. I would help him transition to this, though. The bottom line is you do have a right to a smoke free environment, and he has the right to smoke. It might be that you two cannot live together if his habit is not manageable.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

My son is only 4 so I have no real insight BUT I did read once about a parent who was living with a young adult child with a similar issue and she levied a "health tax" of an extra $200 rent, and informed the child she was saving it towards chemotherapy and hospice costs for when the child would be dying of lung cancer. The child quit 3 months later.


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## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

Kick him out?? Seriously?? Um, I'm not going to do that. I'm looking for solutions here, not a way to completely alienate my son for the rest of his life. Take my word for it that other than this, I love him to pieces and he's a great guy.

The air purifier is a really good idea - I hadn't thought of that. I also like your approach kathymuggle - I haven't taken that tack in our numerous conversations. Thanks for the input!


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Um, yeah, IMO smoking in the house IS a reason to kick somebody out. I won't even allow guests to smoke in my home- they're welcome to step outside if they can't wait until they're home for another cigarette. I already have multiple chemical sensitivities, plus a cold. I felt sicker when a friend came into the house a few minutes *after* smoking, due to residual smoke on his clothes. I can't imagine allowing anybody, ever, to smoke inside the house itself, because of its effects on my health (not just long term, but my immediate response.) I'm even having trouble breathing after some olive oil got smoky when we were making latkes!

I personally have no qualms about saying " These are my house rules. If you can't abide by them, then you need to move out." It's hard for me to comprehend "smoking in the house" as being "a minor annoyance" rather than "a serious health hazard."

I think Kathymuggle said it pretty well- you have the right to a smoke-free house and he has the right to smoke. If he can't find a way to control his habit, he may need to move out. Maybe you could set up his computer for WOW in the garage?


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Kick him out?? Seriously?? Um, I'm not going to do that. I'm looking for solutions here, not a way to completely alienate my son for the rest of his life.

Why would enforcing your (very reasonable) personal boundary mean completely alientating your son? He is 20 years old. He knows how disrespectful his behavior is.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I personally have no qualms about saying " These are my house rules. If you can't abide by them, then you need to move out." It's hard for me to comprehend "smoking in the house" as being "a minor annoyance" rather than "a serious health hazard."

This exactly.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Kick him out?? Seriously?? Um, I'm not going to do that. I'm looking for solutions here, not a way to completely alienate my son for the rest of his life. Take my word for it that other than this, I love him to pieces and he's a great guy.

Loving him to pieces doesn't mean you have to let him treat you badly. He obviously wants to live by his own rules, it sounds like the solution is for him to move somewhere where he can do that. Your current relationship doesn't sound very healthy, is it really worth hacking and coughing and being miserable to maintain the status quo? If he moves out you may alienate him, or he might grow up and learn to respect you. The current situation doesn't sound like it's bringing the two of you closer together.


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## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

You can't "discipline" a 20 year old. Yes, I would absolutely have a conversation with him, but the conversation would end with "If you can't abide by this as a consideration for everyone else who lives here, you will have to find another place to live. I'll give you 30 days and help you pack."

I wouldn't ask/tell him to quit, but would offer help if that is the way he wanted to go. That isn't the real problem - smoking in the house is a problem. Being a smoker at 20 is just a bad personal choice, not a parental problem.

I certainly wouldn't be having him brainstorm solutions. There is only one solution if he wanted to continue living with me - smoke outside, or in the garage if that is acceptable to you. An air purifier wouldn't hack it with me.

Even my DF didn't smoke in our home when he was a smoker (he quit a year ago - yay!).

If you had a 20 year old renter who wasn't following the rules of your home, what would you do?


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

It would be HIS choice to continue smoking and have to find a new place to live if you made that a condition of living under YOUR roof.

(Sounds like he's smoking in the house because he knows you won't do anything about it....)


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Nah, this situation TOTALLY deserves an ultimatum. If he refuses to follow your very reasonable, simple and healthful rule of "no smoking in the house", then he doesnt' deserve to live in your house. What else is he doing that you don't want him to do? I have trouble believing there is only one thing he lies to you about.

If he can't promise to and live up to his promise, to not smoke in the house, then he doesn't deserve to live there.

Gosh. My husband quit smoking this year (finally, with the help of patches and lots of sunflower seeds), but for over 12 years of living together, he smoked and never ONCE smoked in the house. Never. I don't smoke, hate smoke and he knew I (and our children) had the right to live smoke-free so he smoked outside.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

If you think that holding him accountable for behavior which, in your house, is not only miserable and uncomfortable but life-threatening for you both will "alienate him for the rest of his life," then you must be getting walked on in other areas with him too.

Why don't you just move out? I am sure he can handle the mortgage, rent, bills, repairs, and whatever else you're currently shouldering in order to keep a roof over his head.

I'm only being half sarcastic here. A person cannot control what OTHERS do or think, but they can, and must, control their own own boundaries and behaviors.


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## SuzyLee (Jan 18, 2008)

Your house smelling like smoke (which it will... forever...) also really hurts the property value. Something to consider.

If telling him he can't smoke in the house will alienate him forever then you have bigger problems on your hands then jsut the smoking.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Remember, you are not doing your son any favors teaching him that it's okay to smoke whenever/wherever he wants, regardless of others' feelings. In fact, if he acts like that, he is limiting his future relationships (who will be friends or lovers or partners with him), he is learning that his wants trump the wants or needs of others. He is learning that even if he promises something, he doesn't need to stick by his word.

Perhaps you need to take him to family counseling to get someone objective and reasonable to weigh in on this.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NellieKatz* 
If you think that holding him accountable for behavior which, in your house, is not only miserable and uncomfortable but life-threatening for you both will "alienate him for the rest of his life," then you must be getting walked on in other areas with him too.

Actually, I think she said "kicking him out" would alienate him - not asking him to stop.

I do think it is a legitiamte concern. I would have been seriously alienated if I was kicked out. I have a friend whose parents insisted she stand on her own two feet at a time when she was not ready - and she felt quite abandonned. It is still an issue years later. TBH the families I know where kids are "kicked out" (often simply because they are 18) are not close.

I think if no other solution works (including: quitting, smoking outside, air purifier in one room, smoking in the garage (may work better in warmer weather, lol)) leaving may be an option. But he should be parented out of the house - not kicked out _which does sound very harsh_.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
I think if no other solution works (including: quitting, smoking outside, air purifier in one room, smoking in the garage (may work better in warmer weather, lol)) leaving may be an option. But he should be parented out of the house - not kicked out _which does sound very harsh_.

Most people are suggesting that he be offered a choice: follow the rules of the household, or find somewhere else to live where he doesn't have to follow those rules. There's a difference between saying you're 18 so get out, and you're 18 and if you want to continue to live here, you need to follow the house rules or you need to leave.


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## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

Would you all kick your dp out of the house if they smoked in the house, but other than that you had a great relationship? Or would you try and work out a solution? I think that's a far more accurate comparison than asking what I'd do if he was a renter. At what age exactly does the gentle discipline end and the harda$$ parent emerge then? I'm not going to kick him out of the house just BOOM like that - surely people can take that at face value and try to offer constructive solutions instead of telling me if I won't kick him out I'm letting him walk all over me.

Thanks kathymuggle for understanding things. I guess I could try to argue my point here, but I'm at work and don't have the time. I guess I'll just figure it out on my own.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Would you all kick your dp out of the house if they smoked in the house, but other than that you had a great relationship?

Yes. If I had asked him repeatedly to stop, if it bothered my lungs, affected our children, etc., yet he continued to persist doing something he KNEW offended us and hurt us. Because you know what? That would mean we would NOT have a great relationship. It would mean I _thought_ we had a great relationship on my end, but on his end he was happy just to do as he pleased, make empty promises, and walk all over me.

That's just disrespectful.

Quote:

Or would you try and work out a solution?
Isn't that what you've been doing? And he agrees but then changes his mind? It sounds like your solutions aren't working and he knows you aren't going to do anything "real" about it.

Quote:

At what age exactly does the gentle discipline end and the harda$$ parent emerge then?
Gentle discipline, I'm sure, doesn't mean allowing oneself to be a doormat and enabling adult children.

Being a parent means more than just coddling someone's destructive behaviors, esp when those behaviors affect the rest of the family. Sometimes it's about doing what you know you need to do to make an adult child "grow up" and be accountable.

Quote:

I'm not going to kick him out of the house just BOOM like that - surely people can take that at face value and try to offer constructive solutions instead of telling me if I won't kick him out I'm letting him walk all over me.
No one's telling you to BOOM - kick him out. They are telling you to give him two options. They are:
1. This is my roof, respect it and do your smoking OUTDOORS or in the GARAGE.
2. If you cannot respect my rules, find another place to live.

The choice is on HIM, not on you. You make the rules, he gets to pick which one he wants to live with.


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## hippiemama76 (Jun 11, 2009)

My Dad smokes, and my mom has taken the approach for years that she can love him, but not love his smoking. He is not and has never been allowed to smoke in the house or in her car. He smokes out on the porch, and could smoke in his car but chooses not to.

Part of her taking the hard line was protecting us - she didn't want us raised in a smoking household. Not only is it not healthy, but she didn't want us reaking of smoke.

I see that you have two other children at home. IMO, your 20 year old is damaging your health, as well as the health of the other kids, by smoking in the house.

It's one thing to be a hard-a-- and say, "My way or the highway," but it's another to say, "We all have to share this living space, and the majority rules - 3 healthy lungs outweigh your 'want' to smoke indoors." That's not being a jerk, that's being fair to all.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

I don't know how well any of these work, but how about an ashtray that sucks up smoke???

http://www.nextag.com/smokeless-ashtray/compare-html


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

He's a grown up. Does he contribute financially to your household? Wash his own clothes, or do any other grown up type stuff?

If he's otherwise responsible (and not an immature kid taking advantage of free digs and food) I would work with him on this issue, but if he's otherwise getting a free ride honestly you're doing him a HUGE disservice as a human being by allowing him to do whatever he wants without consequence.

Sometimes kids need to be alienated (not the word I'd use- I'd use the term shown boundaries), especially when they don't see their parents as valuable human beings worthy of respect and consideration.

*And my husband smoked inside until our first child was born. Then he stopped. And if he continued smoking inside my house behind my back or around my children I would give him the ultimatum. Damn right I'd tell him to leave if he continued imposing his cancerous habits on the rest of us- that's pure BS and selfishness.

No one person in any household has the right to hold the health of the other family members hostage to their own addictions and selfishness.

It's not ok.

I'm sorry that seeing this in black and white is making you defensive for your son (I'm sure he's an awesome person!







), but you do have the right here to make a stand. It's not going to hurt him, in the long run it will help him.

I think sometimes parenting includes making really hard choices. I think this is one of them. You don't want to push him out, yet he won't respect you. I'm not sure what else you can do to get through to him besides helping him to grow up and take responsibility for his own actions.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NellieKatz* 
If you think that holding him accountable for behavior which, in your house, is not only miserable and uncomfortable but life-threatening for you both will "alienate him for the rest of his life," then you must be getting walked on in other areas with him too.

This EXACTLY. And as always, Ruthla is full of wisdom.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
Yes. If I had asked him repeatedly to stop, if it bothered my lungs, affected our children, etc., yet he continued to persist doing something he KNEW offended us and hurt us. Because you know what? That would mean we would NOT have a great relationship. It would mean I _thought_ we had a great relationship on my end, but on his end he was happy just to do as he pleased, make empty promises, and walk all over me.

That's just disrespectful.


And this too. My dad was a heavy smoker my entire life, but he NEVER smoked inside. Mom did not allow it, and he agreed because EVERYONE in the household deserves respect.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hillymum* 
I'm sorry but I would kick him out! If he has money to burn then he can find his own place to polute. Sounds harsh but why put up with someone who shows you no respect?


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
I do think it is a legitiamte concern. I would have been seriously alienated if I was kicked out. I have a friend whose parents insisted she stand on her own two feet at a time when she was not ready - and she felt quite abandonned. It is still an issue years later. TBH the families I know where kids are "kicked out" (often simply because they are 18) are not close..

No one is talking about kicking a child out to force him to stand on his own feet, or due to age. Surely a 20 yo realizes how disrespectfully he is acting. Surely he knows he is not treating his mother and siblings well.

I wonder if he would smoke in anyone else's home against their wishes?


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Would you all kick your dp out of the house if they smoked in the house, but other than that you had a great relationship?

Yes I would. If my husband was willing to be that disrespectful, I would say that we no longer had a "great relationship".


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
Most people are suggesting that he be offered a choice: follow the rules of the household, or find somewhere else to live where he doesn't have to follow those rules. There's a difference between saying you're 18 so get out, and you're 18 and if you want to continue to live here, you need to follow the house rules or you need to leave.

I think most people are framing the choice this way because there aren't a lot of other "consequences" that can be imposed in this situation. If the young man doesn't care that his actions are disrespectful and potentially harmful to the other residents, then what logical consequence can be imposed?

I agree that he should show the OP the respect of not smoking in her house, just as he (hopefully) would not smoke in a mall, church, or a friend's home without permission. If he will not agree to it and abide by the rules, then he should be _parented_ out of the home, as a PP suggested. With emotional, not financial, support.

Good luck OP. Relationships are really complex and I hope that your son will be mature enough to do his part in fixing the situation.


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## runnerbrit (May 24, 2006)

As a former smoker, and a person who believes that a person has a right to smoke in their own home, car, or in a public space (this is not allowed where I live); I do think that your son is being horribly disrespectful by not honoring your request to smoke outside.

I agree with previous posters that you should sit down and speak with him. Let him know that you would like him to only smoke outside. If he cannot or will not respect your request then he has 30 days to look for another place to live. I would not make it an "I will throw you out" situation. Rather, I will help you look for a place to rent, help you pack, help you move.

Another thought, he maybe 'dirtying the nest'. In other words he want to makes his own rules, his own decisions, even move out but is unable to make the move on his own so instead he is attempting to force your hand.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

My mom smoked for awhile when I was a kid (she stopped before I was born and restarted when I was 13). She never, ever, smoked in the house.

As for "what if it was your husband?" Honestly, I can say that I would not have married a smoker if he was smoking at the time I met him, and I'd marry with the understanding that our house was a smoke-free zone and any future smoking by ANYONE would be done outdoors.

I would be tempted to install a smoke-activated sprinkler system in my basement, frankly. When it shorts out the computer he's playing WoW on, it'll probably get his attention, since it sounds like he respects his WoW buddies more than his own mother.


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## KayTeeJay (Jul 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SuzyLee* 
Your house smelling like smoke (which it will... forever...) also really hurts the property value. Something to consider.

If telling him he can't smoke in the house will alienate him forever then you have bigger problems on your hands then jsut the smoking.

We are currently in the market for a new house, and I was thinking this exact thing! I won't even look at a house that's been smoked in. You can never really get that smell out of everything without replacing everything down to the drywall.

I agree with the pp's that have said the decision to quit or not is his--I'm sure you aren't happy with his decision to smoke, but it's his to make. Until he owns his own home, he's going to have to play by someone else's rules to an extent. Not smoking in the house is not an unreasonable or uncommon request from a landlord. You obviously love him and don't want to push him away, but mama, you are allowing another adult to disrespect you and your values *in your own home*. Your son is perfectly happy with the situation, but at what price to you?? Would you condone him treating his future spouse this way?


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Would you all kick your dp out of the house if they smoked in the house, but other than that you had a great relationship? Or would you try and work out a solution? I think that's a far more accurate comparison than asking what I'd do if he was a renter. At what age exactly does the gentle discipline end and the harda$$ parent emerge then? I'm not going to kick him out of the house just BOOM like that - surely people can take that at face value and try to offer constructive solutions instead of telling me if I won't kick him out I'm letting him walk all over me.

Thanks kathymuggle for understanding things. I guess I could try to argue my point here, but I'm at work and don't have the time. I guess I'll just figure it out on my own.

Basically this is a health issue, your health. People have gotten ill and died from second hand smoke. Your son is probably reacting to the issue like you're trying to tell him what to do because you're his mom instead of understanding that you don't want the toxic stuff in your house because you don't want to compromise your own health. Young adults feel the need to assert their autonomy. You don't have to kick him out just make him understand that the real issue is you don't want to be poisoned. Sit him down and say "hey I don't want to get sick or have health problems from toxic smoke. If you were a paying roommate or tenant I would have kicked you out, but you're my son. I know you wouldn't knowing poison my food, but this is poisoning the air I breath. If I feel self destructive and change my mind I'll let you know but until then don't smoke in the house."

We moved when I was pregnant and no one was allowed to smoke in our house after that. Our roommate, who paid one third of expenses, and any of his guests had to smoke outside. My DH was supposed to quit before my DD was born, but couldn't quite do it. He was still smoking maybe 3 cigs. a week. He smoked outside too. After my mom died from obstructive lung disease when my DD was 2 months old my DH had to change shirts and shower anytime he chose to smoke. I just got too upset if I smelled it on him. He quit when my DD turned 3. By that time it was an every once in awhile thing.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

I'm continuing to read this thread and another thought popped into my mind.

I am a big studier of the concept of boundaries (having been raised with none myself, and having grown up with a really immature attitude until someone explained this whole boundaries thing to me)...and a question occurs to me that this term "great relationship" should be defined.

I am not being glib. Some people define "great relationship" as one where there is no conflict, no fighting, etc. But that could just mean that one person is being endlessly accommodating. Another way a relationship would be great is when both people get their needs met and when they have a conflict of needs/wants/desires, they have an attitude of respectfully trying to work it out, not just by paying lip service to it, but seriously trying to work it out.

But when I see that some of the responses to the infuriating behavior arre to "smack him" or "not speaking to him", I wonder if healthy assertiveness is not lacking, and that the "great relationship" could mean that conflict or the necessary negotiations are just being avoided.

I'm just thinking out loud here...it reminds me of things I've heard when people say about a couple "those two got divorced!! I can't believe it....they had such a great relationship! they never even so much as argued!!" Sometimes peace comes at too great a cost, and it not a healthy and sustainable peace.

This can't be easy. It sounds like we're beating up on you. But I come from this exact dynamic....the dynamic of peace-at-any-cost vs. conflict/confrontation = abandonment. Too extreme. It didn't serve me well. This new, assertive, healthy-boundaries thing does NOT come easy if you weren't raised that way. So I can empathize.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Would you all kick your dp out of the house if they smoked in the house, but other than that you had a great relationship? Or would you try and work out a solution?

When dating, smoking was a deal-breaker for me. I have problems with even cigarette particulates--they cause my allergies to flare up in rather nasty ways.

If my husband took up smoking at all at this point, that still would be a deal-breaker. It would be extremely disrespectful of me and my health.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
But he should be parented out of the house - not kicked out _which does sound very harsh_.

Oh, absolutely. There's a big difference between saying "That's *IT!!!* I've had it with the smoking- you've got until January 15th to find someplace else to live!" and saying "Look, we need to find a solution here. I can't live with smoke in my house. I love you, and I enjoy your company, but I'm very angry about the way you've been treating me and it's affecting our relationship. I'm feeling disrespected every time I smell smoke in the house, after you keep on promising to stop. If we can't find a way to live together respectfully, then maybe its' time you got your own place."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Would you all kick your dp out of the house if they smoked in the house, but other than that you had a great relationship? Or would you try and work out a solution?

Yes, I would. It wouldn't be "a great relationship" if he disrespected me and my health like that. I wouldn't even be able to enjoy his company at all if I was hacking and coughing every time he got within 10 feet of me.

Obviously, you're not as sensitive to cigarette smoke as I am, or you would be reacting differently to this whole situation. You would have set up different "ground rules" in the first place. And it's hard for me to fully comprehend exactly where you are now, since this exact same situation would feel very different to me.


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Would you all kick your dp out of the house if they smoked in the house, but other than that you had a great relationship? Or would you try and work out a solution? I think that's a far more accurate comparison than asking what I'd do if he was a renter. At what age exactly does the gentle discipline end and the harda$$ parent emerge then? I'm not going to kick him out of the house just BOOM like that - surely people can take that at face value and try to offer constructive solutions instead of telling me if I won't kick him out I'm letting him walk all over me.

Thanks kathymuggle for understanding things. I guess I could try to argue my point here, but I'm at work and don't have the time. I guess I'll just figure it out on my own.

Oh yes. DH would be out in the cold. It is a serious health issue and expensive so spending money we don't have. And it's just disrespectful to inflict your bad habits on someone else despite their protests. That kind of self-centered behavior does not yield happy relationships.

I think maybe you and your DS aren't well suited as roommates right now at this stage of the game. So I would frame a 'find your own place' discussion in that light. It's not punitive. The fact is, neither of your needs are being met by living together.

Of course, if you can come up with some other stop gap measures then do so, but I would not encourage my child to live with me in the circumstances you have described.

V


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## plunky (Aug 23, 2008)

I agree with Ruthla. I'd also make sure when you are talking to him about this that you're very clear that the problem is that he's smoking in the house, not that smoking is bad or that he's harming his health or any of the other ways you can think about this. Young men can have a whole "I'll do what I want!" mindset and do harmful things to themselves because they feel like it. You should make sure you're separating that (the harmful health stuff) from the boundary issue (you own the house, you should get to dictate whether it smells like smoke).

Be clear: your house, your rules. You're not telling him to stop smoking. You're telling him that you don't want your house smelling like smoke. If he can't respect that, then yeah, find an apartment. And it should be clear that it's his choice that is requiring the change.


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## MariesMama (Sep 26, 2008)

Flat out kicking him out would be harsh, yes, but asking him to stop smoking in the house is completely reasonable. More than reasonable. Totally normal, acceptable, and respectful to all parties.

My little bro is here right now (he'll be 24 in a couple days, kind of an immature 24) and he and I both smoke. I smoke at work and occasionally will smoke at home, OUTSIDE, if I've had a beer. He smokes on a regular basis, sometimes in his house, sometimes outside, and neither of us would EVER, EVER, EVER even THINK of smoking in our parents' house. My brother says that your son is walking all over you and is being a UAV by continuing to smoke inside. Asking someone to go outside to smoke is OKAY! If your son gets all butt-hurt by it, well, that's his problem.

Parenting him out of the house, gently, seems like the best solution for everyone.

Also, those air purifiers don't work that well. Your house is still going to stink if he's smoking in the basement - it just travels up the vents and stairs. It's not going to solve anything.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Would you all kick your dp out of the house if they smoked in the house, but other than that you had a great relationship?

Yes. We would legally separate until such time as he got his act together and decided to act respectful and thoughtful. And he would do the same to me-- and he would also try to stop me from being a SAHM to our kids-- if I was smoking in front of them and in their living areas!

This is SO disrespectful!

DH's mom smokes and she is an angel and we love her to death. However. We have totally given her ultimatums about time with the kids vs. smoking. If she decides to smoke in common areas of her house, we don't visit. If the house smells strongly of smoke, we don't visit. In fact we have walked into the house, and immediately turned around and left before. We LOVE her so much, she's great; we do not tolerate the smoking.

Have you ever read the Explosive Child? The book doesn't really relate to this case at all, since it's for parenting children. But I'm going to use his description of the Plans:

Plan A: your concern and solution are on the table-- authoritative, child's concern can be empathized with but ultimately you only care about enforcing your solution. Most mainstream parents parent only this way pretty much all the time. This is a very good parenting method for when your child runs into the street and there is no time for discussion. This is also the Plan you have to use with people who have no desire for working with you or respecting your concerns.

Plan B: your concern and your child's concern are both on the table. You collaboratively come to a solution that satisfies both of your concerns, is feasible and realistic, and satisfies both parties. This is a good way to approach most problems, especially your concern right now with the smoking-- as long as he's willing to cooperate. It's not Plan B, however, if your child's solution (smoking behind your back) isn't satisfying YOUR concerns as well as his own. If he lacks a basic respect for you, you may have to go to Plan A.

Plan C: your child's concern and solution are the only ones on the table. This is a good Plan to use when you realize that your expectations were unrealistic or infringed on your child's basic rights. Inappropriate use would be when you compromise your boundaries or values-- then it becomes permissive parenting or being a doormat.


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## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

Thanks. The last few replies haven't rubbed me the wrong way like the first ones were. Some excellent advice.


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## pauletoy (Aug 26, 2007)

Your son is hurting your health, damaging your property and being disrespectful. I have a very hard time believing that this is the only issue going on between mother and son. It just seems strange for a person to be very respectful in every other aspect of the relationship and then start smoking in a house even though he has been asked not to.

If this were my child, I would not tolerate this behavior. He would stop smoking or stop living in my home.

By the way, an air purifier will not completely remove the smoke smell. To people who are very sensitive to it, it would still be a problem.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Reading the OP made me really sad, b/c there is a blatant disprespect going on. Getting a special ashtray or air filter is not really the issue here. The issue is that the OP has tried many ways to say she REALLY does not want smoking in the house and her son just doesn't care.









He is an adult, and I have to wonder about a kid who is that blatantly disrespectful of other adults, especially ones he especially loves.

I would absolutely be VERY upset if my DP or my adult kid was that disrespectful of my very valid requests. (On a side note, comparing a son or daughter to a partner/husband is weird to me as they are very different relationships).

OP, I hope your son has a desire to look at why he is so blatantly disrespectful to you, and I'm sorry he is being that way. He seems to truly not care about your feelings. I hope he turns it around.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
It would be HIS choice to continue smoking and have to find a new place to live if you made that a condition of living under YOUR roof.

(Sounds like he's smoking in the house because he knows you won't do anything about it....)
















He's being totally disrespectful. I'd kick him out in a minute.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Would you all kick your dp out of the house if they smoked in the house, but other than that you had a great relationship? Or would you try and work out a solution? I think that's a far more accurate comparison than asking what I'd do if he was a renter. At what age exactly does the gentle discipline end and the harda$$ parent emerge then? I'm not going to kick him out of the house just BOOM like that - surely people can take that at face value and try to offer constructive solutions instead of telling me if I won't kick him out I'm letting him walk all over me.

Thanks kathymuggle for understanding things. I guess I could try to argue my point here, but I'm at work and don't have the time. I guess I'll just figure it out on my own.

Yes, not even remotely a question. I'm not sure I'd stay with my partner if he smoked at all as I am severely severely allergic. However smoking in my home? Not a chance there would even be an option. It would be choose to smoke in your home and your home will not be my home too. The kids and I would be gone.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Oh, absolutely. There's a big difference between saying "That's *IT!!!* I've had it with the smoking- you've got until January 15th to find someplace else to live!" and saying "Look, we need to find a solution here. I can't live with smoke in my house. I love you, and I enjoy your company, but I'm very angry about the way you've been treating me and it's affecting our relationship. I'm feeling disrespected every time I smell smoke in the house, after you keep on promising to stop. If we can't find a way to live together respectfully, then maybe its' time you got your own place."

That being said I agree with Ruthla... I would not just say get out now. I would however insist that they either follow the rules of the house or else work out a plan to live in a space where the rules they want to follow can be arranged for them.

This is not the same as a child not washing the dishes when it's their turn or coming home late (not that a 20 year old has curfew, but I just mean any household rule). This is a rule that when broken has the potential to cause illness or even eventual death for not only you and your partner (if you have one) who are adults and can choose to take on that risk but also your younger children who can't choose to just move out. That is totally unfair to them and I would never allow someone who was putting my children's health in danger to continue to do so.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Tell him he can either stop smoking in your house or find another place to live. It's YOUR house, and he needs to obey YOUR rules, I don't care if he's 10 or 50. I'd never let my rommate or husband smoke in the house, and I wouldn't let my child do it either. He is blatantly disrespecting your boundaries and you are enabling him to do so.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Would you all kick your dp out of the house if they smoked in the house, but other than that you had a great relationship? Or would you try and work out a solution?

Yes, he would absolutely be out of the house within minutes of taking a second smoke in there. With the first I'd tell him that there is no way that is happening in my house around my kids and me, so never ever do that again. And if he did, he'd be out.
And he would do the same to me.
Actually, I wouldn't even be with him if he smoked at all, there's no way I will ever expose my kids to a smoking parent (or bigger sibling), or myself to a smoking partner. (Even if it was only outside.)
Guests are not allowed to smoke inside either. No way, no how. And we will not visit people who smoke inside their home. (Not a problem though, nobody we know does.)

And besides that, Ruthla said it, this is what I'd do:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Oh, absolutely. There's a big difference between saying "That's *IT!!!* I've had it with the smoking- you've got until January 15th to find someplace else to live!" and saying "Look, we need to find a solution here. I can't live with smoke in my house. I love you, and I enjoy your company, but I'm very angry about the way you've been treating me and it's affecting our relationship. I'm feeling disrespected every time I smell smoke in the house, after you keep on promising to stop. If we can't find a way to live together respectfully, then maybe its' time you got your own place."


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Would you all kick your dp out of the house if they smoked in the house, but other than that you had a great relationship? Or would you try and work out a solution? I think that's a far more accurate comparison than asking what I'd do if he was a renter. At what age exactly does the gentle discipline end and the harda$$ parent emerge then? I'm not going to kick him out of the house just BOOM like that - surely people can take that at face value and try to offer constructive solutions instead of telling me if I won't kick him out I'm letting him walk all over me.

I don't know that anyone was suggesting you pack his bags and throw him out tomorrow. If I were in your shoes, I would simply tell him that the choice is his and give him a deadline. He's an adult. You can't discipline an adult. At some point, discipline has to come from within.

I'm not a harda$$, but I'm not really a follower of gentle discipline, either. I believe that natural consequences are the best teachers, but sometimes the natural consequence is too impractical or dangerous. Sometimes, there is no natural consequence that matters...as in your case. The natural consequence of him smoking in the house is that you become upset with him. Your son apparently does not care that you are upset by his actions. So, an imposed consequence is in order. A 20yo is plenty old enough to be held accountable. Anything else is enabling or coddling, IMO. Lack of personal responsibility is a huge peeve of mine.

And I can't imagine myself in a situation where my DP smoked at all, let alone in the house. Smoking is a deal-breaker for me. I'm an asthmatic and I also have an asthmatic kid. Nobody is welcome to smoke in my home or car, whether friend or relative. I would never date a smoker. The residue on their clothing is enough to trigger lung problems for me.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I agree that this is a boundary issue.

I've raised my daughter pretty harmoniously, but I've always been very clear about where my boundaries were. By age twenty I think it really takes two to tango, and if he's not willing to work with you to find a solution that's respectful to you and your needs (not to mention lying to you about it) then I wouldn't feel very accommodating towards him... and yeah, I'd basically say that I own this house (or it's leased to me) and I'm not willing to put up with this in my home.

I didn't even consider that he wouldn't be contributing to the household in other ways (paying rent, doing dishes, washing his clothes).


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

My dad smoked in the house and car while I was growing up. He still smokes- far less- but he's stopped smoking indoors or around other people.

The trigger for changing his habits? I developed cancer.

I think you have an obligation to care for the health of the other members of your family, and that obligation trumps his habit. Are you really willing to allow your desire for him to feel warm and fuzzy about you (which, as evidenced by this disrespect, he doesn't) to come before the health of your family as a whole?

You can love him, and still say, ' this can't happen in this manner any more.' In the end, you might just earn the relationship you're trying to foster with him- and a cleaner and healthier home. When push comes to shove, if he's the great kid you know he is, he'll make the choice that's right for him now. If he needs to cling to the smoking indoors and move elsewhere- then developmentally he probably needs to make that break, and this may be the necessary catalyst. If he decided he's capable of respecting the family health and values and say where he is- maybe that's a better fit for his place in life right now. Either way, he's an adult, and all you are doing is asking him to make an adult decision.


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## lonegirl (Oct 31, 2008)

He's 20 I was married at 20 and moved out at 18. If he insists on smoking then I would suggest he get his *own* place and be his own man...


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
Yes. We would legally separate until such time as he got his act together and decided to act respectful and thoughtful. And he would do the same to me-- and he would also try to stop me from being a SAHM to our kids-- if I was smoking in front of them and in their living areas!

.


The idea that someone would have tried to stop my mom (a really great mom, btw!) from being a SAHM for smoking seems wrong. You really think I would have been better off with strangers who did not love me and were paid to take care of me? (no offense meant to daycare workers - I use one myself on a part time basis and even though she is great she _is not my kids mom_)

I would not leave DH over smoking (although I would make it close to impossible to smoke in the house - or, our house is large, we could try a designated area with filter). I think the fallout of divorce on my family would be worse than the smoking issue.

I do think The OPs DS probably does not realise the impact his smoking has. I know it is nuts - but smokers often do not smell the smoke , and it does not bother their lungs as they are used to it. They genuinely think one cigarette is not going to affect much. He needs to be made aware.

I also think smokers are vilified in our society. Whatever the Op does, she needs to make sure she does not vilify him....sometimes smokers feel defensive and then they do not always make good choices.

Op...it might be interesting to let your son read the thread and see what he thinks....

Kathy


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Not worth the risk to your other childrens health. If he cant abide by the rules then he needs to find a new place to live. If he where renting and there was renters rules he would have to follow them. Same goes here.

Yes I would kick my dh out in a heartbeat if he smoked in the house. To me that would be like allowing him to drive them around without car seats it is a possible life threatening thing.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

Smoker here...
I have smoked for 7 years (except during pregnancies) and I have never smoked in the house or around my children or husband. It's really not that hard to go outside. If one of my children (16 or so years from now) continued to smoke in our house even after I said "no" we would really have to renegotiate the terms of our living situation. The reason we do practice gentle discipline is because we do want our children to grow up to be kind and most of all respectful individuals. He could be a great kid- but if he is continuing to smoke in the house and play video games all the time and not contribute to the family financially - then the lines may be blurred between gentle discipline and being too permissive to the point that you are being disrespected on a daily basis.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
The idea that someone would have tried to stop my mom (a really great mom, btw!) from being a SAHM for smoking seems wrong. You really think I would have been better off with strangers who did not love me and were paid to take care of me?

I would NEVER let my hubby be a SAHD if he insisted on smoking around the kids and in our living space. Ever. I would quit my job and stay at home full time if he refused to compromise on this, so I see that poster's point. Smoking & second hand smoke kills. I have never heard of one case where smoking was not harmful in one way or another.

Quote:

I do think The OPs DS probably does not realise the impact his smoking has. I know it is nuts - but smokers often do not smell the smoke , and it does not bother their lungs as they are used to it. They genuinely think one cigarette is not going to affect much. He needs to be made aware.
As far as the OP's son goes, this isn't just an issue of him not being aware. His awareness of the issue has NOTHING to do with the fact that he is being blatantly disrespectful of his mother's wishes. That is the problem - the disrespect and dishonesty, and that's what needs to be addressed.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 

As far as the OP's son goes, this isn't just an issue of him not being aware. His awareness of the issue has NOTHING to do with the fact that he is being blatantly disrespectful of his mother's wishes. That is the problem - the disrespect and dishonesty, and that's what needs to be addressed.


If making him aware leads to him being more respectfull then where is the harm???? Indeed it is a good outcome. I also think it is quite normal for people to want to understand WHY something is being asked of you (such as "do not smoke in the house".) Personally, I can tentatively comply with something (such as at work) if I do not understand, but I can wholeheartedly embrace soething when I do understand.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
TBH the families I know where kids are "kicked out" (often simply because they are 18) are not close.


amen sister!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Kicking someone out because of a certain age is worlds away from kicking someone out for putting the rest of the family at risk and disrespecting the rules.


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## Jane (May 15, 2002)

I smoked as a teenager and young adult. Although I moved out at 19, I did live with my mom off and on to help out with the littles after that. I thought it was above and beyond and made her the *best-mom-ever!!1!!* that she let me smoke in her garage instead of outside. You're just not getting the props you deserve for letting him smoke indoors at all.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

DH smokes (started up again not too long ago) and I used to. NO way in heck would he smoke inside our home. And yeah, he pays 100% of the bills, including a lot of money to live in this beautiful home. I would have no qualms at all about making an ultimatum to him, my loving DH, if he insisted on smoking inside. So yes, I would absolutely insist my grown adult child respect my wishes/rules and step outside each time he wanted to take a puff. Like others said, smokers don't walk around places like the grocery store with a lit cig - why on earth would it be okay to do so in someone else's home (or even in your own home, if others were irritated by it)? It's extremely disrespectful, and it stinks. literally.

I, personally, wouldn't say stop or leave, now! But there has to be a way to get it through his head that smoking inside is bothersome (and dangerous) to the other people he chooses to live with. If he can't live consensually, then maybe it is time he moved in with other inside-smokers, or found his own place. I honestly don't know exactly how you can approach it - b/c it's gone on for awhile now. I guess I would just have put a stop to it the very first time I found out my DH (or whoever) smoked inside. I'm thinking he feels like he's got away with it for so long, so why stop now? There hasn't been any real consequences besides yelling, an angry mama, missing smokes/lighters, etc.. Not sure what you can do at this point, but I would not stand for it any longer - and he needs to know you are serious.

Best of luck, OP.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
If making him aware leads to him being more respectfull then where is the harm???? Indeed it is a good outcome. I also think it is quite normal for people to want to understand WHY something is being asked of you (such as "do not smoke in the house".) Personally, I can tentatively comply with something (such as at work) if I do not understand, but I can wholeheartedly embrace soething when I do understand.

The OP has tried reasoning with him for YEARS. To me and everyone else here that sounds like he has boundary/respect issues, not that he doesn't quite get that smoking is harmful.

I agree that making him more aware will not hurt anything, but I find it hard to believe it will help, either. All I was trying to point out is that it isn't an issue of him becoming aware - it's an issue of boundaries. If she's been saying for years how it bothers her, how she hates it, etc but he doesn't care to change anything and in fact LIES to her about it, then why would telling him how harmful smoking is change anything? Most people with an ounce of sense know that smoking harms.

Anyway, not trying to nitpick you, I just wanted to point out that this sounds like more of an "I'll do what I please because Mom won't enforce any rules anyway" kinda thing than an "Oh! I had no idea smoking was so bad for you!" kinda thing.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:

this sounds like more of an "I'll do what I please because Mom won't enforce any rules anyway" kinda thing than an "Oh! I had no idea smoking was so bad for you!" kinda thing.








exactly.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I would tell him that he can either not smoke in the house or find another place to live. If he continued to smoke, he'd be out.

He isn't a partner, he's an adult child. There is a world of difference. My partner is jointly responsible with me for paying the mortgage and utililties, maintaining the home, etc. His name is on our deed. My children's names are not on the deed. My husband and I set house rules together. When my children are paying for their own homes, they may set the house rules there.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
If making him aware leads to him being more respectfull then where is the harm???? Indeed it is a good outcome. I also think it is quite normal for people to want to understand WHY something is being asked of you (such as "do not smoke in the house".) Personally, I can tentatively comply with something (such as at work) if I do not understand, but I can wholeheartedly embrace soething when I do understand.

Go ahead and explain it to him (although it seems clear from the op that they'd done a lot of talking about it already).

But, if you believe a 20 yo, in 2009, doesn't understand 1. that smoking indoors is bad, and 2. why, then you are underestimating his intelligence.

eta...or, more likely, overestimating his good intentions, and making excuses for his disrespectful behavior.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 

Anyway, not trying to nitpick you, I just wanted to point out that this sounds like more of an "I'll do what I please because Mom won't enforce any rules anyway" kinda thing than an "Oh! I had no idea smoking was so bad for you!" kinda thing.

I do not feel nitpicked by you (nor the others) so no worries.

The truth is I do not think my POV is very far away from others with relation to the OP.

If they cannot find a solution that works for both of them, him finding (with emotional support) his own place may be for the best.

What has bothered me is that people have sounded very harsh. If I counted how many times someone said "kick him out" I would be out of fingers and toes







Moreover, the Op has made it clear that is _not her preference_. I am a (borderline) consenual liver. In most instances I do think there is a solution that everyone can live with. It is there that I am posting from...what are the solutions between "let him smoke in my house" and "kick his butt out"?. There are options (including the above mentionned real awareness) and I have posted what I could think of hoping they would resonate with the Op. It is, in many ways, what she asked for.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Go ahead and explain it to him (although it seems clear from the op that they'd done a lot of talking about it already).

But, if you believe a 20 yo, in 2009, doesn't understand 1. that smoking indoors is bad, and 2. why, then you are underestimating his intelligence.

eta...or, more likely, overestimating his good intentions, and making excuses for his disrespectful behavior.

Do you know many smokers?

Some of them genuinely do beleive:

-smoking is not as bad for you as everyone says it is

-hey, we are all going to die of something

-smoking one cigarette in front of you is not going to kill you...stop being so nitpicky.

It is called denial.

I think the awareness he may lack is how much his smoking affects her. As mentionned up thread - smokers do not notice the smell, nor does it bother their lungs...so they often assume it is the same for everyone. They do not get on a deep level how irritating smoking is to non smokers.

Yes, I think it is very possible he does not fully grasp how nauseating a habit it is to non-smokers, and also, as stated up thread, grasping this may help him move his habit outdoors. Or it may not. But the OP can consider and decide if she wants to try it. Sigh.

Kathy


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Would you all kick your dp out of the house if they smoked in the house, but other than that you had a great relationship? Or would you try and work out a solution? I think that's a far more accurate comparison than asking what I'd do if he was a renter. At what age exactly does the gentle discipline end and the harda$$ parent emerge then? I'm not going to kick him out of the house just BOOM like that - surely people can take that at face value and try to offer constructive solutions instead of telling me if I won't kick him out I'm letting him walk all over me.

First of all, I really need to gently point out to you that comparing the dynamic between you and your 20yo son to the dynamic between you and a DP is a boundary issue that I think you'd benefit from addressing. He's NOT your partner. At all. He's your child. And he's hiding his behavior from his mommy (extremely immature) because he wants to continue doing something you don't like. It would be inappropriate for you to demand he quit smoking, however setting and enforcing the boundary of NOT smoking IN YOUR PROPERTY is completely acceptable.

Second of all, how is it 'hard ass parenting' to say to an ADULT: "This particular issue (whatever it is), while you may not agree with it, is a dealbreaker to the current living arrangements that you enjoy. I still love you, and of course I want you to be happy, but this is affecting my health/sanity/happiness/etc and it either stops immediately or I will be redecorating that room of yours into a scrapbooking mecca







Love you!"

It sounds like you don't battle a whole lot of issues with him, which means making this a big deal is worth it in the long run because it REALLY matters to you.

Is he paying rent (at 20 and working 35hrs a week I certainly hope so), because if so then yes he is a renter. Because he's your son I can totally see letting some things slide, I'd do the same, but this one is NOT OK. It's not like you haven't made your point clear, so why do you think he's ignoring you, other than the very likely possibility that he knows you may rant and rave, you may throw away his smokes, you may stop speaking to him (days of no nagging, how is THAT a bad thing for HIM?), but ultimately he still gets his place to hang out, smoke, and play on the computer.

If he isn't paying rent then he's leaning a lot more towards freeloader, even if he's a charming and usually pleasant one. In either case you are WELL within your rights to respect your own home, your own health, and your own boundaries and make it clear. Smoking in the house results in eviction. Period. That IS gentle discipline. So many times people confuse gentle discipline with NO discipline. He's an adult working full time. If he doesn't like the conditions of his current home he is more than capable of finding somewhere else where he can smoke in the house. What's the worst that happens? He gets angry? How angry do you get to be when your house is reeking of cigarettes and your health deteriorates? What about the health of your other children? What about the personal respect that you deserve when you set a boundary?

I'm curious at what point you would ask him to move out? If it's not this, then what? He is completely capable of being independent. Our job as parents is to guide them towards independence, and refusing to allow them to take that final step prevents them (and us) from achieving that goal. It's ok if he stumbles, it's ok if he figures some hard lessons out for himself (like...I can't just do whatever I want with other people's health/property/personal boundaries). He'll be ok, you'll be ok, and it sounds like you've raised a very self assured and extremely confident son who will navigate his world with his head held high once he's given the opportunity to do so unencumbered.

Good luck!


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## overseasmomma (Mar 7, 2009)

This brings back some memories for me. I had this problem with my brother when he started smoking at 17. Not in the house but in the car that we (sibilngs) all shared. He continued stinking up our car until he was 22 when he finally got his own car to pollute. No matter how many arguments we got into, how many promises he made, he ALWAYS ended up smoking in the car. And, yes, he had other behavior problems as well - racked up his credit cards, eventually dropped out of college, borrowed money from siblings that he never paid back etc. His smoking in the car that was shared with his non-smoking siblings was just ONE issue among many others. I wish my parents had sent him off to live on his own because it took YEARS for him to turn his life around. While his other friends finish uni and got good paying jobs, he was still working a minimum wage job, partying on the weekends and basically slacking his way through life. So, to the OP, it really does seem like there might be other issues here that need to be looked at. If not, and it's JUST the smoking, then maybe it shouldn't be that hard to be resolved? All I know is, with my brother, he ruined one relationship after another with his behavior and my sister (who lent him money and let him run all over her) suffered the most as she always thought it was the LAST time he would break his word. My sister has asthma and constantly had to air out the car after he had smoked in it but it never seemed to bother him. Or, he would charm his way out of it and promise not to do it again. He's in his 30s now, with a good job and a house and car that he doesn't smoke in. So, he turned out ok and we all have a good relationship NOW. But, that doesn't mean he didnt put us all through hell back then.

ETA:sorry, no advice. but whatever happens, it's good that you are looking for alternative solutions. this situation is something that shouldn't be allowed to fester and I hope you get some good advice from this thread.


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Would you all kick your dp out of the house if they smoked in the house, but other than that you had a great relationship? Or would you try and work out a solution?

It is absolutely impossible for a person to continue to smoke when asked not to if they are in a good relationship. People in good relationships respect each other.

It is perfectly reasonable to smoke outside, even if the weather is bad. That is what coats, hats, gloves and umbrellas are for. No respectful adult smokes inside a house unless specifically told that it is ok. It just isn't done, even in areas of the country where smoking is common.

You won't be "kicking him out". If he chooses to leave rather than smoke outside like a decent adult, then it is just another stupid choice. You can't control what he chooses, but you sure as heck can chose how you will allow you and your property to be treated.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Do you know many smokers?

Sure, I know smokers. I _was_ a smoker. My sisters both smoked until the past couple of years. There are a few smokers in dh's family. Some even smoke in the house.

NONE smoke in another person's home, when asked not to. All are aware of the science regarding second hand smoke (whether they agree with it or not, they are aware it exists), and the political debates regarding smoking in public and private spaces.

To me, believing a 20 yo simply is unaware of the reason his mother doesn't want him to smoke in the house is called denial.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:

Do you know many smokers?
My husband has smoked for umpteen million years and quit several times, only to start back up again within a few months. He would NEVER smoke in someone's home, even if they allowed it. Most of his friends smoke. Same applies. He smokes outside, always. He *does* smoke in his car occassionally, but no one uses his car but him and there's no hope of it reselling anyways so it's his decision. Still though he tries to avoid smoking in his car and he NEVER smokes in the family car. EVER.

And if his MOTHER asked him not to smoke ON HER PROPERTY he would happily oblige.

Interesting personal experience regarding parents and boundaries:
My DH's parents live in a TINY town in the middle of nowhere, there are two corner stores on opposite ends of a 1K population little speck. One sells alcohol, one doesn't. Guess which one is closer to their house? Well they are absolutely convinced alcohol is 'of Satan' and accordingly won't even get groceries at the store that sells it. I didn't know that one time and ran to the store to get something for them. They asked that I not go to the (closer) store that sells alcohol because they don't want anyone in town thinking they support 'that sort of thing'. MMMkayy whatever works for you







So we went to the other store. Was it a smidge inconvenient? Sure, but it mattered to them and out of respect we deferred to their preferences because we were in their home. When they come to our home they don't expect or ask that we don't buy groceries from a store that sells liquor, but in their home it matters to them. We don't have to agree with it or care, but we do (out of respect) abide by their wishes.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Sure, I know smokers. I _was_ a smoker. My sisters both smoked until the past couple of years. There are a few smokers in dh's family. *Some even smoke in the house*.

*NONE smoke in another person's home, when asked not to.* All are aware of the science regarding second hand smoke (whether they agree with it or not, they are aware it exists), and the political debates regarding smoking in public and private spaces.

.

It could very well be that the OP and OP's son believe it is _his_ home.
This is regardless of who pays the mortgage. For example, this is my childrens home as much as it is mine. They live here.

Maybe the OP feels like it is his home - thus he should be able to smoke in it if he wants?

I am not saying this is right or worng - just musing.

I think how the OP approaches the situation might have to do with how she sees her son in the house.

If she see it as her house - then "this is my house. These are my rules" might apply.

If she sees it as their home then "what you are doing is affecting everyone who lives here. Just as I would not play loud music all night as it would disturb everyone, you may not smoke as it bothers and is a health risk to the other occupants on this house. Take it outside"

I do get she has probably said such thing before







but knowing where a person is coming from can help with communication.

Edited to add: I am outta here - unless I think of something that might help the OP in which case I will post. I do think posters are being quite hard-a$$ (to quote the OP) and a bit holier than thou. "People who cannot abide by my rules should leave, I would never marry a smoker, would divorce a smoker, smokers should never be SAHM (although I guess they can smoke when they get home? right? cuz smoke in the evening does not count?)." Geesh. I think a certain amount of tolerance and compassion of human foilbles is totally missing from this thread, as is any discussion or _even tolerance of discussion_ of a middle zone. The only conclusion I can come to is : smoking and boundaries are polarising topics, and b) long threads get messy and polarising.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
It could very well be that the OP and OP's son believe it is _his_ home.
This is regardless of who pays the mortgage. For example, this is my childrens home as much as it is mine. They live here.
.

I think that may be part of the issue here. But the reality is, the person who owns the home makes the rules.

If I smoke in my apt (my home), I could be evicted. That is reality, because I don't own the place, and the owner's rule is "no smoking". Making the rules is the luxury and responsibility of the person who owns the space (and, yes, I believe the op has a responsibility to her other kids to provide a smoke-free home. They _can't_ leave.)


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:

I think a certain amount of tolerance and compassion of human foilbles is totally missing from this thread, as is any discussion or even tolerance of discussion of a middle zone.
According to the original post, it sounds like there has been TONS and TONS of discussion already. If you've asked a person eight million times to (slightly!) modify their behavior (as in, please go outside to smoke) and they refuse...what's left to discuss?

What I'd start "discussing" is him getting his own place to live. And it doesn't have to be a punitive thing. A talk with the tone of "hey, you're an adult, it seems you'd love your own space to do your own thing and not have to hear me gripe about the indoor smoke anymore. What steps can you take to make that happen? And how can I help you?" That's not "kicking him out." That's brainstorming a more radical solution, since the easier ones (saying please don't smoke in the house) got you nowhere.


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## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

kathymuggle I thank you profusely for your input in this thread. Really, you're great and you really understand where I'm coming from and have been really helpful.

Many people wonder if he pays rent - yes he does. Does that make him a 'renter'? Certainly not in my mind. How anyone can compare their own child to someone who just pays rent is totally beyond me. Why is that OK - because he's 20 and not 2? How would you feel if I compared your 2 year old with some random kid that you babysat and told you that you should feel the same way about them? He also does all his own laundry (has for about 10 years), almost all of his own cooking, and other stuff. Sounds like a horrible person, eh?

Since I posted he hasn't smoked in the house. We'll see if that continues. I'm sure many of you will assume it won't - that's ok, if it does or doesn't I won't be posting about it.

Many have questioned our relationship and how it could possibly be so great if he's doing what he's doing. I have no idea how, I just know what it is. I guess if people want to think I'm delusional then so be it.

An attitude like 'My home, my rules' was the whole reason I left home at 16. I vowed I would never drive my kids out of the house as they got older. I'm sure there are many people who think I'm way too lenient with them (obviously) but that's the way it is. I thought that if I could find like minded people anywhere, it would be here.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

With all due respect, don't ask the question if you're not ready for the answer.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
kathymuggle I thank you profusely for your input in this thread. Really, you're great and you really understand where I'm coming from and have been really helpful.

Many people wonder if he pays rent - yes he does. Does that make him a 'renter'? Certainly not in my mind. How anyone can compare their own child to someone who just pays rent is totally beyond me. Why is that OK - because he's 20 and not 2? How would you feel if I compared your 2 year old with some random kid that you babysat and told you that you should feel the same way about them? He also does all his own laundry (has for about 10 years), almost all of his own cooking, and other stuff. Sounds like a horrible person, eh?

Since I posted he hasn't smoked in the house. We'll see if that continues. I'm sure many of you will assume it won't - that's ok, if it does or doesn't I won't be posting about it.

Many have questioned our relationship and how it could possibly be so great if he's doing what he's doing. I have no idea how, I just know what it is. I guess if people want to think I'm delusional then so be it.

An attitude like 'My home, my rules' was the whole reason I left home at 16. I vowed I would never drive my kids out of the house as they got older. I'm sure there are many people who think I'm way too lenient with them (obviously) but that's the way it is. I thought that if I could find like minded people anywhere, it would be here.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
How anyone can compare their own child to someone who just pays rent is totally beyond me. Why is that OK - because he's 20 and not 2? How would you feel if I compared your 2 year old with some random kid that you babysat and told you that you should feel the same way about them? He also does all his own laundry (has for about 10 years), almost all of his own cooking, and other stuff. Sounds like a horrible person, eh?

No one here has said he is a horrible person; he is, however, disrespecting your boundaries. If he was not disrespectful, he would have listened to you AGES ago when you first confronted him and told him you did not want him smoking in the house.

And no one has said he is "just" a renter, at least not that I saw. However, comparing him to a 2 year old child is absurd. Your son is an ADULT. And as an adult, more is expected of him, and a different kind of "discipline" is expected from you. He is fully capable of following some house rules and having such a reasonable expectation put upon him.

Like someone else said, if he cannot respect HIS OWN MOTHER who asks him not to smoke in the home around her and his siblings, how will he learn to respect his one-day WIFE when she asks the same of him?


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## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **bejeweled** 
With all due respect, don't ask the question if you're not ready for the answer.

But most people haven't answered my question


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

In most apartments, you can't smoke inside. If you do it often enough and frequently enough, they will catch you, and if you don't stop, evict you. This is because of their insurance on the rental units.

I have evicted people for smoking in their units.

Much as I hate the word "enabling," you're not teaching him to live realistically in this world. He'll have to develop habits that go along with the smoking habit that allow him to live in legal and socially appropriate ways, and one of those habits is getting used to smoking in places that are okay to smoke in and not in those places that aren't.

Most smokers I know eventually come to enjoy being outside when they smoke. My DH is one of them. Except when its bitterly cold and windy, he enjoys the few moments he spends observing the weather and the birds.

You could also encourage him to switch to snuff or Swedish Snus when he's busy playing WoW and its hard to interrupt the game to go out and smoke (snus supposedly has much lower rates of mouth cancer; supposedly no risk for the "white" portion, and its a great deal cheaper if ordered by Swedish post than cigarettes bought in America). Spit cups are gross but they don't affect the air in the house. He could use plastic cups that you just toss out rather than your usual washable drinking cups.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
An attitude like 'My home, my rules' was the whole reason I left home at 16. I vowed I would never drive my kids out of the house as they got older.

It sounds like your experience was one extreme, and, in response, you are going to the opposite extreme. There is a healthy middle ground. Boundaries are good, as is growing up and realizing you need to get your own place if you want to smoke in the house.

Please know that setting a boundary--even one that leads to a 20 yo moving out--does not result in lifelong alienation in healthy relationships.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Well hopefully this is all resolved now and that's great









From my own (too late so irrelevant, and possibly irrelevant anyway







)

I personally would have offered the option for help to move out. Not as a punishment - he's not a wee kid after all, but a grown man. He makes his own decisions (the vast majority of which seem to be really good, mature decisions). He is deciding to smoke despite the owner of the house asking him not to. I don't think he shouldn't be allowed to smoke, or shouldn't be allowed to smoke indoors, but i DO think that the option to get his OWN "indoors" in which to smoke isn't an outrageous or terrible one. I left home to go to university at 17. I was in private rental and caring for myself completely by 19. It wasn't terrible, i wasn't abandoned or driven out. I was a grown up and it was a fine time for me to strike out on my own. It was a really exciting, rewarding time of my life, and though i was a few hundred miles from my folks i knew i had plenty of support (emotional and when necessary financial) at home. They were all really proud of me.

My DH lived at home until he was 37. He will tell you himself that 21 was a fine time for him to leave and every year he didn't leave beyond that took away from him rather than gaining him anything. Of course, living at home at 20 is NOT an indicator of who will be living at home at 37!!! But 20 isn't so young that living away from one's parents would be unnatural or cruel. My brother also lived at home until he was 30, eventually my dad had to ACTUALLY move house to get my brother to move out (and he DIDN'T pay rent, act respectfully or help out!).

Maybe it is me being a very harsh person, but i think i will ALWAYS be my DD's mama, but that role only has a requirement for providing shelter for the first 18-20 years and then in emergencies thereafter. Which is not to say i'd kick her out (unless she was impossible to live with) but more than her moving out any time after that would be, to me, a natural progression of things and not a terrible event.

And no, i wouldn't necessarily kick my DH out if he smoked, but a) he pays for this house we all live in and works himself silly to do so, so i believe he gets some leeway with his preferences and habits and b) he is very respectful and wouldn't do that around me if i asked him not to. Also i guess i am very strange/old-fashioned in thinking that this is OUR (DH and MINE) house. It is my kids home until they move out of it, but it is not their house and they will never, unless they are paying for it/looking after it/responsible for it the way we are, have the same rights over what happens in it as we do. One of the benefits of growing up and getting your own place is that you can run it how YOU want. I want DD to have that in her turn. I really enjoyed it


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

another thought:

Would a laptop help? On his dime, of course. WoW can be difficult to leave if you are in the middle of a quest... if he has a laptop he can move it outside where he can play and smoke at the same time.

It wouldn't work well in winter - but it may help for the 7 or 8 months of the year that are not frigid.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

Former smoker and boomerang kid here. I never smoked in my parent's home b/c that was part of our agreement--I got to live there and save money, in exchange I had to follow some rules that I felt were restrictive, but I accepted since I wanted to live there and save money. I have to agree w/ everyone else that protecting your personal space isn't unreasonable or being a bad mother.

Also, I don't get comparing DP and DC relationships here to validate the decision. I love my DH and I love my DS, but in different ways, and there's certainly a difference in dynamics. The DS in question may be 20 and an adult, but he's still your child, you're still the parent, and it's still your house that he's sharing. If he can't abide by very reasonable rules, than perhaps you'd both be happier to continue a relationship of equals w/ him living elsewhere.


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## New_Natural_Mom (Dec 21, 2007)

Well, there are a number of things going on here. This is damaging to the house. If you try to sell you might have a difficult time. I would never buy a house from a smoker for health reasons. It takes an ENORMOUS amount of time and money to clean that up. There is also the health issue for you and any other members of the family.

Have you asked him why he continues to do it even though you have asked him repeatedly to stop? Is he depressed? I don't abide smoking at all. For personal and health reasons it is not allowed in my house, car, yard, what have you. To me, my son smoking would be "end of the world" stuff around here.

I would sit him down and have a very open discussion and listen to his reasons. If he couldn't respect the rules of the house, in this instance, I would ask him to leave.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
I do think The OPs DS probably does not realise the impact his smoking has. I know it is nuts - but smokers often do not smell the smoke , and it does not bother their lungs as they are used to it. They genuinely think one cigarette is not going to affect much. He needs to be made aware.

I also think smokers are vilified in our society. Whatever the Op does, she needs to make sure she does not vilify him....sometimes smokers feel defensive and then they do not always make good choices.

Op...it might be interesting to let your son read the thread and see what he thinks....

Kathy

I quit smoking 13 years ago and I still love the smell of it and will purposely walk behind someone who's smoking on the sidewalk to get a wiff. I think it is very likely true that he just doesn't get it, and that if he did he would not treat his mother this way or expose his younger sibs to it. Obviously he should just take her word for it, but I can see why it would be harder to show respect for a request that doesn't make any sense to you. And 20 is pretty freaking young. Old enough to go to war and vote, but still in my eyes, not fully matured. At least I was still pretty freaking unformed at 20.

I also think the vilification thing is a real problem and it can drive wedges between people. I smoked for the first eight years or so that dh and I were together and the last two of those he would not allow me to smoke in front of him and would freak out periodically when he smelled it. In a way it worked, I quit when I realized that I could not have a relationship with him anymore if I was smoking but if that addiction would have had just a slightly stronger hold, I'm sure we would have been done for. And during that two years there were an awful lot of hard feelings that probably haven't been fully resolved.

I think it's wonderful that the OP enjoys having her son in her home and is willing to try to work something out. I feel like so many people are happy and quick to send their kids packing (by whoever's choice). My oldest is six and I'm already dreading the day that he isn't living with us any more. It may be that his moving out will become necessary, but gosh, I sure wish that my mom would have been willing to do nearly whatever was necessary to have a good close relationship with me.

As for the practical question of what to do about the cigarette smoke... I only read up to page 3 or so, so this may have been suggested, but they have these really cheap space heaters at costco, like maybe 50 or so bucks, that are supposed to be low energy users and they work really well in a small area. Do you have a garage you can put him and his computer and a space heater in? Also wondering if the problem gets better when it's warm out. If not, then obviously this wouldn't be a solution.

I do hope you guys find some way to work it out.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
I do think posters are being quite hard-a$$ (to quote the OP) and a bit holier than thou. "People who cannot abide by my rules should leave, I would never marry a smoker, would divorce a smoker....

It's holier-than-thou to avoid things that are hazardous to my health and the health of my kids? Really?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
But most people haven't answered my question









It appears to me that the "question" was how to make him uncomfortable enough to stop smoking in your house. You said:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
I can't make him do anything - that simply doesn't work. Hasn't for a few years now. I need to come up with a way to make him want to do it, or for it to be more uncomfortable for him to do not it than do it, if I want him to do anything.

I don't know what other sorts of discomforts you could impose on a 20yo MAN to get him to stop smoking in a communal area. My 14yo suggested taking all his cigarettes and throwing them away until he stops smoking or moves out.

Paying rent doesn't give one license to do whatever they wish.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
kathymuggle I thank you profusely for your input in this thread. Really, you're great and you really understand where I'm coming from and have been really helpful.

Many people wonder if he pays rent - yes he does. Does that make him a 'renter'? Certainly not in my mind. How anyone can compare their own child to someone who just pays rent is totally beyond me. Why is that OK - because he's 20 and not 2? How would you feel if I compared your 2 year old with some random kid that you babysat and told you that you should feel the same way about them? He also does all his own laundry (has for about 10 years), almost all of his own cooking, and other stuff. Sounds like a horrible person, eh?

Since I posted he hasn't smoked in the house. We'll see if that continues. I'm sure many of you will assume it won't - that's ok, if it does or doesn't I won't be posting about it.

Many have questioned our relationship and how it could possibly be so great if he's doing what he's doing. I have no idea how, I just know what it is. I guess if people want to think I'm delusional then so be it.

An attitude like 'My home, my rules' was the whole reason I left home at 16. I vowed I would never drive my kids out of the house as they got older. I'm sure there are many people who think I'm way too lenient with them (obviously) but that's the way it is. I thought that if I could find like minded people anywhere, it would be here.

I feel if your DS really understood that the smoking is a health concern about your own health he wouldn't smoke in the house. I still think a serious conversation about the health risks for you would work. If he knows this isn't a case of 'my house, my rules" or 'I'm still the parent' or any other situation where you're trying to still treat him as a child/minor he will listen. The issue isn't about respect it's just a health issue. Having an adult to adult conversation about your personal health concerns is the best way to go. I had no problems getting our roommate to quit smoking in the house. I just said the toxic fumes would be bad for my new baby, it increases the risks of SIDS, and after my mom passed on, the smell of smoke made me nauseous and very sad. None of the people who had previously smoked in our old house minded going outside to smoke in the new one. People are pretty considerate if you tell they why in a respectful manner.


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## Jane (May 15, 2002)

Perhaps you can just set a dollar amount for the privilege of smoking indoors. Perhaps $5 a ciggarette. Then he can decide if it's worth it.
Now that I'm thinking about it, why not brainstorm with him -
You can present your view and what your top 4 points are - perhaps, smell, property value, younger kids health, disrespect
He can give his own 4 - perhaps, smell not bad, cold outside, in his own space, takes too long

Possible solutions - the ones you come up with together will be way more powerful than just giving my list:
Smoke only morning cig inside, all others outside
Only smoke by window
Use electronic cigs or chaw when indoors
Smoke eating ashtray
Fee to smoke inside
Charge rent and then he can smoke if he wants
He moves out to do what he wants
He will exchange some chore you don't like for smoking rights, like yard work or cooking


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## Tizzy (Mar 16, 2007)

Haven't read the last 4 pages...but my first and only solution is an ultimatum.
He either stops smoking in the house, or he finds a different house to live in.
It's a major health concern to all involved and it's disrespectful.


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## muttmom92 (Mar 20, 2005)

I haven't read the replies, but I'd kick him out. He can get an apartment and light up all he wants.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

I can't imagine living with a smoker. My parents were heavy smokers and I can't believe I lived with it for 18 years. The minute I turned 18, I was out of there and still can't stand the smell of smoke. I would never date, much less marry a smoker, so maybe I am a lot less tolerant than some of the other posters. I have grown children and can't imagine them disrespecting me in this way. I would have no problem suggesting they move out if they wouldn't stop smoking in the house. I don't think you are doing him any favors by letting him walk all over you. I think most people have their breaking points, and this would be it for me no matter how much I loved my child. I understand your defensiveness, because after all, he is your son first and foremost. I agree with the others, a great relationship without respect isn't a great relationship.


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## muttmom92 (Mar 20, 2005)

Ok. Well I just now read all the replies, so I guess mine wasn't helpfull at all. FWIW, my DH has been a smoker since I've known him (he doesn't really smoke anymore-just occasionally). As soon as I told him (pre kids) that I didn't want him smoking in the house, he respected that and started smoking outside.

I wasn't suggesting that you kick him to the curb, but I agree with others giving him the choice. He can either smoke outside and continue to live in your house or he can move out.

I don't see how that can be considered "hard-ass" or alienating.


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## GinaRae (Mar 27, 2007)

My 14yo is not doing very well in school and we're parenting him lovingy and allowing him to make mistakes no matter how hard that is -- this could affect his entire life and we're terrified. But this affects HIS life. It does not affect property, the family's health, etc..
My feelings are exactly the following two:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
It sounds like your experience was one extreme, and, in response, you are going to the opposite extreme. There is a healthy middle ground. Boundaries are good, as is growing up and realizing you need to get your own place if you want to smoke in the house.

Please know that setting a boundary--even one that leads to a 20 yo moving out--does not result in lifelong alienation in healthy relationships.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *New_Natural_Mom* 
Well, there are a number of things going on here. This is damaging to the house. If you try to sell you might have a difficult time. I would never buy a house from a smoker for health reasons. It takes an ENORMOUS amount of time and money to clean that up. There is also the health issue for you and any other members of the family.

Have you asked him why he continues to do it even though you have asked him repeatedly to stop? Is he depressed? I don't abide smoking at all. For personal and health reasons it is not allowed in my house, car, yard, what have you. To me, my son smoking would be "end of the world" stuff around here.

I would sit him down and have a very open discussion and listen to his reasons. If he couldn't respect the rules of the house, in this instance, I would ask him to leave.


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## BMG580 (Jun 19, 2007)

I respect my mother. I don't always get along with her but I do respect her.

With that said, at 31 years old, married for 10 years and a third child on the way, I would NOT EVER even consider smoking in front of my mother (I don't smoke, so this is hypothetical) because I know she would hate it and be disappointed. So to think that not only would I smoke but do so in her house when she has repeatedly asked me not to is the epitome of disrespectful.

He is 20, he is choosing to smoke, he clearly has disposable income to spend on very expensive cigs. There is no reason in the world why you cannot tell him that if he chooses to not abide by household rules then he cannot live in the house you are paying for. If you want him to grow up and be a responsible adult you must demand that he face consequences (positive or negative) depending on behaviors that he chooses. He chooses to smoke inside, he can control that choice very easily. It seems obvious to me that all you are asking him to do is get up and outside when he wants to smoke. That is an easy enough request to follow and if he can't manage it then I cannot see how asking him to not live in your house is somehow being mean, overbearing, authoritative and "kicking him to the curb". It is giving him a reasonable, clear and easy choice!

It is *your house*, for goodness sake.


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## Beene (May 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Maybe my way of thinking is not in line with MDC standards, but....he's 20, right? Old enough to find his own apartment if he wants to smoke indoors.

I'm with Hillymum. Except I don't think it sounds harsh at all.

YEP. You yourself said it. He's an adult. What happens to adults who don't follow rules? Yep.


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## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Apricot* 
Perhaps you can just set a dollar amount for the privilege of smoking indoors. Perhaps $5 a ciggarette. Then he can decide if it's worth it.
Now that I'm thinking about it, why not brainstorm with him -
You can present your view and what your top 4 points are - perhaps, smell, property value, younger kids health, disrespect
He can give his own 4 - perhaps, smell not bad, cold outside, in his own space, takes too long

Possible solutions - the ones you come up with together will be way more powerful than just giving my list:
Smoke only morning cig inside, all others outside
Only smoke by window
Use electronic cigs or chaw when indoors
Smoke eating ashtray
Fee to smoke inside
Charge rent and then he can smoke if he wants
He moves out to do what he wants
He will exchange some chore you don't like for smoking rights, like yard work or cooking

Thank you - these are some excellent ideas that I hadn't thought of!


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

I grew up in a house of smokers. My Mom smoked the entire time she was pregnant with me.

I support indoor clean air for anyone under 18. In fact, I think it should be illegal to expose children to second hand smoke. That being said, I would not allow him to smoke in your home with other children there.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

So, BedHead, how do your other two children feel about living in a house that smells like smoke?


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## notneb (Aug 31, 2006)

I very much agree with some of the PP. If an adult child who lived in my home insisted on doing something that put the life of my other children and of DH and myself at risk, he would get to choose between stopping the risky activity and finding other living arrangements. It is just not fair to you, and especially to your younger children who do not have the power to do anything to protect themselves from your DS's potentially lethal activities. Between the very real dangers of secondhand smoke and house fires, smoking in my home is not something I will ever permit. My children's lives and health are too valuable.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

This isn't about smoking, you can't make him quit if he doesn't want to. Throwing out a 20yo's smokes/lighter/not talking to him because of it is rather quite childish.

The problem is he's disrespecting you & the rules of your house. You mentioned you don't want him walking all over you but you need to face the reality that he already is. You are passively allowing him to do this even though you hate it.

Ignore the smoking part of it. What would you(the op) do if it was a different rule of the house that he was constantly breaking?

Quote:

How do I punish an adult who simply ignores the rules like that???
He stays & smokes outside or he moves out. Even though this isn't what you want to hear it is as simple as that. Sitting him down & discussing this as his 2 options should be enough for him to start following the rule.

He does all these other adult things(having a job, cooking for himself, his own laundry, etc) why can't he follow this other very simple rule??? I'd guess he isn't allowed to smoke in the building where he works but does he disrespect his bosses by smoking in it anyhow?

If he spends all his free time playing WOW, that could be a big factor(and a completely seperate issue). Buying him a laptop(as suggested) so he can take the game with him isn't solving anything.

As another seperate issue as a pp mentioned I WOULD increase his rent because he smokes in the house. You don't have the spend that $, put it in a savings account or something but allowing him to continue doing this in the house is going to cost you down the road.


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
.

Edited to add: I am outta here - unless I think of something that might help the OP in which case I will post. I do think posters are being quite hard-a$$ (to quote the OP) and a bit holier than thou. "People who cannot abide by my rules should leave, I would never marry a smoker, would divorce a smoker, smokers should never be SAHM (although I guess they can smoke when they get home? right? cuz smoke in the evening does not count?)." Geesh. I think a certain amount of tolerance and compassion of human foilbles is totally missing from this thread, as is any discussion or _even tolerance of discussion_ of a middle zone. The only conclusion I can come to is : smoking and boundaries are polarising topics, and b) long threads get messy and polarising.

I don't have a lot of tolerance and compassion when I'm in the ER for respiratory distress which is what smoking does to me. I'm not a hardass. I'm just trying to breathe over here and I would like to avoid lung cancer.

OP--Of course I would try to work with my partner, but I need to be able to breathe too and there is little room in my life for people who don't respect me or care about my health. How fortunate you are not to have respiratory problems.

My thought for you is to examine why it is the possibility of DS leaving is such an extreme issue for you. You said you don't want to do to your DS what was done to you. That's fine. I get it. But sometimes we are parenting ourselves instead of the children actually in front of us and I would encourage you to spend some time thinking and talking to your DS about what his perceptions/wants/needs are--they may be quite different than the internal dialogue you have for this situation.

A healthy adult should be able to accept that a roommate situation isn't working out.

A healthy adult should come up with solutions that work and adhere to them consistently.

This is not happening for you or your DS. I think there is a lot more going on here than just smoking.

V


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Violet2* 

My thought for you is to examine why it is the possibility of DS leaving is such an extreme issue for you.

_I am not the Op, but here is my take:

A child flying the nest because they are ready to is very different than being pushed out. I fully expect and want my children to move out as adults when they are ready - but I would be really sad if I had to push them out - particularly if I had not tried everything in my power to change the circumstances which necessitated their leaving._

A healthy adult should be able to accept that a roommate situation isn't working out.

_He is not her roomate. He is her son. This is a long term, loving relationship a deserves more care than one would show a roomate._ _
_

V

Kathy


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I've been thinking about this more... I think when I first replied, I was really hung up because it's *smoking*, which is a dealbreaker for me because I have moderate asthma and hate the smell of cigarettes and hate having my clothes and walls all discolored by smoke. OTOH, that's me, and clearly for other people smoking is not that big of a deal - more on the level of minor annoyance than dealbreaker.

So, I was thinking, what if the issue was something like "He leaves his shoes all over the living room floor all the time and I hate tripping over them" rather than smoking? To me, that's a minor annoyance, and I would be much more willing to try to search for solutions and just put up with it sometimes, especially since her son is generally helpful and polite.

That doesn't address the entire issue, because I can see someone forgetting and accidentally leaving shoes in the living room but I have a harder time imagining someone forgetting that he'd said he wouldn't light up and accidentally doing it... but perhaps if the OP has created a power struggle around this issue with him in the past then he's being sort of being passive-aggressive and trying to regain some power in this situation.

I guess it all comes down to how big a deal smoking really is for you... for me, it's about on par with my kid deciding to crap in the middle of the floor... in other words, a Very Big Deal.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
He is not her roomate. He is her son. This is a long term, loving relationship a deserves more care than one would show a roomate.

She is not his roommate. She is his mother. This is a long term, loving relationship and deserves more care than one would show a roommate.

Relationships are two-way streets.


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## pauletoy (Aug 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachelsmama* 
So, BedHead, how do your other two children feel about living in a house that smells like smoke?

Excellent question that deserves to be repeated!


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

Re: the suggestions, as a former smoker who grew up w/ 2 chain smokers I can attest that no filter, ash tray or air purifier will take the stink out of your clothes, furniture, or carpets. My father's ceilings are permanently discolored, as are his walls. And for me it was a tactile and oral experience, "chaw" (blechhhhh!), fake cigarettes or a nicotine patch wouldn't have been an option. I smoked disgusting stinky cigs b/c I wanted to do it.

Have to agree w/ those who say this is a respect issue. Your son's respect for you and your respect for yourself. I say the latter because why are you willing to put yourself in an unhealthy situation, one that clearly bothers you? Why are you letting someone lie to you and do whatever they want to your family's home and health?

I'm a former heavy smoker and there were plenty of places I didn't smoke, even though I wanted to because it would have been more convenient to me. Sorry, but it isn't that hard. Quitting, yes (!!!) that's hard, choosing where you smoke, no.


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## muttmom92 (Mar 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pauletoy* 
Excellent question that deserves to be repeated!











I think it's so unfair to the other children in the house. My mom smoked in the house(still does) throughout my entire childhood. It was gross and I hated having to breathe that. She doesn't smoke in her own house now when we're there out of respect for her grandchildren. Your son should be able to do the same. Period.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
I guess it all comes down to how big a deal smoking really is for you... for me, it's about on par with my kid deciding to crap in the middle of the floor... in other words, a Very Big Deal.

lol, yes, that is an apt comparison, imo









Definitely a dealbreaker for me. Messiness, loud music, pets, etc I would happily negotiate with a grown child. But smoking in the house is non-negotiable--esp when there are younger kids in the home who _can't_ move out.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
But most people haven't answered my question










Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
He's 20 and will NOT quit smoking in the house and it it making me want to really really smack him.
<snip>
How do I punish an adult who simply ignores the rules like that???


I think everyone has answered your question and you haven't liked the answer. You CAN'T *punish* a 20 year old child. If he's reached that age, it should be a relationship of mutual respect... and one where he would be just as protective and loving of YOU as you would be for HIM. The answer is that there is no *mutual* respect if at 20 years old, your child is not doing as you ask for the overall health of, not just you, but his siblings as well. He is your child, but he is also an adult.

In your OP you said that you feel like smacking him. Obviously, if it has come to this, you feel strongly about this. Wanting to smack a child is *not* a normal Gentle Discipline response. Yet, you don't want people to tell you that if he can't respect your REASONABLE rules, and that you should gently and gradually help him move to his own place. However, that *is* a normal Gentle Discipline response. You see it as "my way or the highway" ultimatum, but the truth is, he's walking all over you and you're letting him do that if you don't put your foot down more harshly.

Do you really think that if you say, "You have to pay me $200 extra/ month" for smoking in the house that he is actually going to pay? He won't because if he can't respect the first rule, he's not going to respect a new rule that takes more from his cigarette money. Besides, ultimately, what is happening is that you and your son are both disrespecting your younger children because there is nobody protecting their health. Don't they deserve clean air?

My mother smoked my entire life until she moved in with me to take care of her 4 years ago. She finally quit after 50 years. I now have several allergy and lung issues due to second-hand smoke. I feel so sorry for your other children.


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## BMG580 (Jun 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I think everyone has answered your question and you haven't liked the answer.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Goodness, this is a silly discussion.

If the man is capable of refraining from smoking in other places where it is prohibited (work, stores, movie theaters) he is certainly capable of obeying the prohibition in your home.

If he deliberately flaunts the rules in other places, he will be asked to leave, and he knows it. Thus, he obeys the rules.

OF COURSE he should be asked to leave should he continue to flaunt the rules in your home. That's how rules WORK.

I think you are being a doormat here. Buying him a special ashtray is going to do _nothing_ other than letting him know that it's okay to flaunt your rules. If you don't want him to smoke in the house, give him an ultimatum -- no smoking indoors, or leave. Period.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I think everyone has answered your question and you haven't liked the answer.











I honestly have no idea what you thought people were going to suggest to you, that you would find to be more helpful.

Did you want us to tell you to go ahead and smack him? That certainly won't work.

I did suggest family therapy to you earlier, but you don't seem to think that's worthwhile. It would take one session for the counselor to tell him in no uncertain terms, that what he is doing is completely ridiculous and then if he chose to continue regardless, you'd have your answer. Easy peasy.

If he is such a WoW addict that he can't time his cigarettes around playing, then that's his problem, not yours, nor his siblings. He's the one who should have to deal with the problem, not the rest of you.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

newbymom05 said:


> ......why are you willing to put yourself in an unhealthy situation, one that clearly bothers you? Why are you letting someone lie to you and do whatever they want to your family's home and health?


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
An attitude like 'My home, my rules' was the whole reason I left home at 16. I vowed I would never drive my kids out of the house as they got older.

Just wanted to gently caution and remind you (as I remind myself) that the same issues that we vow never to repeat from our childhood sometimes cause us to go overboard in the other direction to our kids detriment. Search your soul and make sure that you aren't enabling your child to disrespect you because it makes you feel like a good mother (or at least keeps you from feeling like a guilty mother). In the end, this could limit your childs potential and growth as a mature and respectful human being.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

I just have to hop in again and say how impressed I am with 99% of the advice on this thread. Y'all RAWK! \^^/


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## kate42 (Feb 2, 2003)

"Son, as of January 1st this is a non-smoking home. Smoking is permitted in the garage and outside but no longer inside for health reasons, just like in restaurants. You are welcome in my home because I love you, but the cigarettes stay outside. This is a non-negotiable rule for people who live and visit here."

Short, firm and caring.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

I feel that anyone who is suggesting such things as special ashtrays and laptop computers and the like are ignoring the larger (and more important) issue that this son is being very disrespectful regarding this issue.

It's kinda frustrating...what is that saying..."can't see the forest for the trees"??? The one that means that you can get hung up on the details, but you need to see the bigger issue.

Anyway...the respect/passive-aggressive thing is much more important to me than the it being just a smoking issue (although as many have stated, that is a real and valid issue, too, of course).


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
I feel that anyone who is suggesting such things as special ashtrays and laptop computers and the like are ignoring the larger (and more important) issue that this son is being very disrespectful regarding this issue.

It's kinda frustrating...what is that saying..."can't see the forest for the trees"??? The one that means that you can get hung up on the details, but you need to see the bigger issue.

Anyway...the respect/passive-aggressive thing is much more important to me than the it being just a smoking issue (although as many have stated, that is a real and valid issue, too, of course).

Disrespect can go both ways. Anyone who asks how to "punish" their 20 year old child is ignoring the fact their kid is no longer a kid. Unless he is going to college, paying rent, or has some kind of disability, it really is time for him to find his own home-if not for the sake of his relationship with his parents then for the sake of his own independence. Even then, you can always work on ways together on how he can get out on his own.

I've known few adult children who grow up to be happy and well adjusted. The ones I've met who continuously live completely rent-free without consequence or contribution in their parents' homes usually end up to be very miserable later in life. We're talking about 30 and 40 year olds who have never had adult relationships with other people. 30 and 40 year olds who finally move out on their own-only to move into poverty-despite receiving good educations (and the student loans that go with them), because they've never been motivated (or had the self esteem) to have good careers. It's not just the fact they live at home that causes it, but the way they are continually treated as children by their parents.

I've seen this happen to a few acquaintances and two close friends (one from high school and the other college). It was very heart-breaking to see it happen to my friends. They both had so much talent and potential to be successful and happy, but never could get past seeing themselves as nothing more than children. Neither of them moved out until their parents got divorced (possibly from the strain of having an adult child under their roof)-and this was a very traumatic way to move out.

They lived in poverty alone, and to this day (10 years later) are still very lonely sad people. I'd never wish this on anyone, and it is why when my DD is an adult, we'll be gently encouraging her to stay in a dorm or get an apartment as soon as she can unless she is going to school or paying rent at our house. It got to be hard for me (and others) to stay friends with these folks. While we were growing up and moving on, they were staying in a time capsule. While, I haven't been in contact with either of these people for a couple of years (it got to be too frustrating), I know through mutual acquaintances that they are pretty much the same, and that makes me very sad for them.

Anyhow, there are ways you can help an adult child move out that is not "throwing them out." You can help them look for a place to stay, help them pack, tell them they can call you if they need help and even help them out a little financially until they are completely able to stand on their feet...but there's got to be very firm boundaries-and this does include some conditions. This is what keeps your relationship with them healthy and it helps them grow up so they can be happy, healthy adults.


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## EarthMamaToBe (Feb 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SuzyLee* 
Your house smelling like smoke (which it will... forever...) also really hurts the property value. Something to consider.

If telling him he can't smoke in the house will alienate him forever then you have bigger problems on your hands then jsut the smoking.

ITA if setting boundaries and consequences will "alienate" your son then you have bigger issues. If his boss told him no smoking indoors would he keep doing it until he got fired?

I have a serious issue with the fact that you will allow him to ruin your home, hurt your health and the health of his siblings, not to mention teach them that there is no need to follow your rules but you think telling him to either follow the rules or find his own place is cruel.

Hello real world where there are consequences for breaking rules. Protecting a "child" from the natural consequences of their actions is not doing them any favors. He is a grown man, expect him to act like one.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kate42* 
"Son, as of January 1st this is a non-smoking home. Smoking is permitted in the garage and outside but no longer inside for health reasons, just like in restaurants. You are welcome in my home because I love you, but the cigarettes stay outside. This is a non-negotiable rule for people who live and visit here."

Short, firm and caring.

adding "if you choose to smoke in my home you will have to live elsewhere"

I have a great relationship with my mom but I would have expected to get kicked out of her home had I chosen to break her rules as an adult.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

I never used the phrase "throw him out," but when it comes to someone owning the home, then the larger burden of respect is due to that person. Also, as has been pointed out, the burden of respect should be on a person to NOT hurt the health and home of others.

Especially when the solution is really quite easy, and that is to go outdoors.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherry Alive* 
Disrespect can go both ways. Anyone who asks how to "punish" their 20 year old child is ignoring the fact their kid is no longer a kid. Unless he is going to college, paying rent, or has some kind of disability, it really is time for him to find his own home-if not for the sake of his relationship with his parents then for the sake of his own independence. Even then, you can always work on ways together on how he can get out on his own.

I've known few adult children who grow up to be happy and well adjusted. The ones I've met who continuously live completely rent-free without consequence or contribution in their parents' homes usually end up to be very miserable later in life. We're talking about 30 and 40 year olds who have never had adult relationships with other people. 30 and 40 year olds who finally move out on their own-only to move into poverty-despite receiving good educations (and the student loans that go with them), because they've never been motivated (or had the self esteem) to have good careers. It's not just the fact they live at home that causes it, but the way they are continually treated as children by their parents.

I've seen this happen to a few acquaintances and two close friends (one from high school and the other college). It was very heart-breaking to see it happen to my friends. They both had so much talent and potential to be successful and happy, but never could get past seeing themselves as nothing more than children. Neither of them moved out until their parents got divorced (possibly from the strain of having an adult child under their roof)-and this was a very traumatic way to move out.

They lived in poverty alone, and to this day (10 years later) are still very lonely sad people. I'd never wish this on anyone, and it is why when my DD is an adult, we'll be gently encouraging her to stay in a dorm or get an apartment as soon as she can unless she is going to school or paying rent at our house. It got to be hard for me (and others) to stay friends with these folks. While we were growing up and moving on, they were staying in a time capsule. While, I haven't been in contact with either of these people for a couple of years (it got to be too frustrating), I know through mutual acquaintances that they are pretty much the same, and that makes me very sad for them.

Anyhow, there are ways you can help an adult child move out that is not "throwing them out." You can help them look for a place to stay, help them pack, tell them they can call you if they need help and even help them out a little financially until they are completely able to stand on their feet...but there's got to be very firm boundaries-and this does include some conditions. This is what keeps your relationship with them healthy and it helps them grow up so they can be happy, healthy adults.

Not to go all OT, and I'm responding to this post, not the OP's situation...but I recently read an interesting article about adult children in the NYT--adultescence is the new term, I believe--and how it can be a vicious cycle. The parent (usually the mom) wants to feel needed, and so always does for the child, well into young adulthood. The child becomes dependent on that, and so it never really stops--the mom has a need and then the adultlescent has the need and so it's an endless loop.

Of course that isn't always true and in this economy I can see where living w/ your family post-college can really give someone a leg up. But I think for the psychological (and physical in this case) health of everyone, rules and boundaries need to be agreed upon and respected.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

This is off on a tangent, but I am finding it a little strange that a natural family living community seems (in general) to be against adult children living at home.

People are communal animals. I think the way we live now, with everyone apart in their own little houses and in their own little rooms, is unnatural.

Personally, my kids are welcome to live here as long as they wish. They will have to pull their own weight and be respectful, but I see no reason to push living independently. I sometimes wish I'd been born in a time when 3-4 generations still lived under one roof.

One of my best friends rents a downstairs apartment in the house her father owns. He lives upstairs; she and her daughter live under him. Yes, he could get more $$$ if he rented to a stranger, so in that way I suppose he is "taking care" of his 48yo daughter. However, she and her daughter also "take care" of him in many ways. My husband's aunt also lives beneath her parents in a multi-family house. It's pretty common around here.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
This is off on a tangent, but I am finding it a little strange that a natural family living community seems (in general) to be against adult children living at home.

People are communal animals. I think the way we live now, with everyone apart in their own little houses and in their own little rooms, is unnatural.

Personally, my kids are welcome to live here as long as they wish. They will have to pull their own weight and be respectful, but I see no reason to push living independently. I sometimes wish I'd been born in a time when 3-4 generations still lived under one roof.

One of my best friends rents a downstairs apartment in the house her father owns. He lives upstairs; she and her daughter live under him. Yes, he could get more $$$ if he rented to a stranger, so in that way I suppose he is "taking care" of his 48yo daughter. However, she and her daughter also "take care" of him in many ways. My husband's aunt also lives beneath her parents in a multi-family house. It's pretty common around here.

I don't think that anyone's against adult children living at home.

But, at some point, the relationship changes from being between a parent and child to being between 2 adults. Not all adults are compatible as room mates.

I'm compatible with my dad. He and I could live together as adults. My mother? No way! She thinks it's amusing to push my buttons.

When I was 18 (and in 2nd year of university) I realized that we weren't good roommates. So I moved out. There's no shame in that.

The fact is that in the OP's case she made a reasonable request which her son refused to honor. That tells me that at this point in his life, he needs a different living situation. Maybe in a few years he'll be ready to live at home again.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
This is off on a tangent, but I am finding it a little strange that a natural family living community seems (in general) to be against adult children living at home.

I didn't see ANYONE say that. You didn't even address the issue of his smoking in the house, AFTER he said he wouldn't.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
This is off on a tangent, but I am finding it a little strange that a natural family living community seems (in general) to be against adult children living at home.

I just posted about "adultlescence", but I didn't mean that as a blanket attitude towards adults at home, just an observation that sometimes it can be healthy, sometimes not. But I don't think anyone has said or is saying, get the son out b/c he's an adult. I'm saying--and I think others are too--that if she asks him not to smoke, and he says he won't and then does it anyway, repeatedly, he's violating their agreement and she's well within her rights to ask him to leave.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
This is off on a tangent, but I am finding it a little strange that a natural family living community seems (in general) to be against adult children living at home.

Natural Family Living has nothing to do with letting your adult children disrespect your rules. NFL is that you have raised your children to be as respectful of your needs as you are of theirs.


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## LilacMama (Aug 18, 2008)

I would be very clear that he could not stay if he so much as smoked one more cigarette in the house. Being a gentle, kind mother does not mean that you let someone do whatever they want.

He owes you a lot of money for clean-up. I have no idea how much it would cost to clean the furniture, carpets and walls of the smell, but I'm guessing it would be several thousand dollars.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I just saw this thread and I didn't read all the replies, but OP, I am only 22 years old, I had to move out of my parents' home at 18 and have since stayed with them several times, so please take this as coming from someone young: NO WAY can I imagine disrespecting a parent like that.

Forget to wash the dishes all the time? Sure. Coming in late and waking people? Yeah. Those are annoying behaviors and I guess you could say disrespectful but things that you can LIVE with. Smoke is a BIG totally different deal.

I mean, if he goes to someone else's house and pulls out a cigarette and they ask him to please take it outside, I bet he'll do it, right? Why should he treat you with any less courtesy?

Also, does he pay rent? If he doesn't, and he works 35 hours a week, then, uh........wow. If he does, then you guys should have some kind of written agreement. Not because you are his landlord and suddenly not his mom, but I have always had a written and signed lease between my dad and I whenever I have lived with my parents, and it is great documentation of the start of a rental history which at some point I'm assuming he will want to have. And if you do have something written and signed, then include "smoking outside" in that, and if he breaks that rule, give him a warning, and if he does it again, give him his 30 days' notice.

Seriously. I am 22 like I said, and I openly admit to having disrespected my mom and/or ticked her off with my sub-par housekeeping from time to time, but I can't imagine pulling something like that. Heck, I don't even run the washing machine when she's asleep. Being 20 is no excuse. He's taking advantage!


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
I didn't see ANYONE say that. You didn't even address the issue of his smoking in the house, AFTER he said he wouldn't.

If you go back and read everything, you'll see that I've addressed that issue more than once, thanks. Or you can click the hyperlink where my username is, and you can see all my posts in this thread.

For everyone who jumped on me about not letting an adult child disrespect the rules of the house, I'd just like to say that I was one of the ones who suggested asking him to find a different living situation....on the first page.

A few people have mentioned that it's time for the kid to find his own way, stretch his wings, gain independence, etc. This is the same community that encourages extended breastfeeding and co-sleeping, both of which the mainstream community tends to see as over-the-top. But it's somehow over-the-top for a 20yo to still be living at home??? This particular point I'm making has nothing to do with the smoking situation (which is why I stated in my last post that it was tangential). I'm talking about attitudes regarding family, in general. What's wrong with living together if it works for everyone?


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachelsmama* 
So, BedHead, how do your other two children feel about living in a house that smells like smoke?

Um, yeah. The thing that I sometimes wonder about CL-style GD is this: It seems to emphasize, a lot of times, consensuality as something that exists between pairs of people in a situation, without taking the larger group into consideration. Why does this come down to Mom v. Son? There are other people who live in the house whose needs and wishes and desires in this need to be taken into account! Why do the desires of one 20 year old with the means, if not the inclination, to go *elsewhere* to smoke trump not only his mother's wishes for a smoke-free home, but those of every other individual who lives there?


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
This is off on a tangent, but I am finding it a little strange that a natural family living community seems (in general) to be against adult children living at home.

People are communal animals. I think the way we live now, with everyone apart in their own little houses and in their own little rooms, is unnatural.
e.

People may be communal animals, but if you want to pull the "natural" card in this discussion, remember that in most of our closest primate relatives, young males are driven out of the community at adulthood to go find another group, full of unrelated females, to live in. In many "more natural" human societies, there are places for adolescents to move to, specifically to get them out of their parent's home and allow them to spread their wings and find their way a bit.

Human society also has come up with a myriad of different ways to deal with the issue of adult children living with parents -- many of them strict and patriarchal, and few of them allowing for the adult child to do whatever the hell they please and ignore their parents' very reasonable house rules.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
This is off on a tangent, but I am finding it a little strange that a natural family living community seems (in general) to be against adult children living at home.

People are communal animals. I think the way we live now, with everyone apart in their own little houses and in their own little rooms, is unnatural.

Personally, my kids are welcome to live here as long as they wish. They will have to pull their own weight and be respectful, but I see no reason to push living independently. I sometimes wish I'd been born in a time when 3-4 generations still lived under one roof.

One of my best friends rents a downstairs apartment in the house her father owns. He lives upstairs; she and her daughter live under him. Yes, he could get more $$$ if he rented to a stranger, so in that way I suppose he is "taking care" of his 48yo daughter. However, she and her daughter also "take care" of him in many ways. My husband's aunt also lives beneath her parents in a multi-family house. It's pretty common around here.

I've been reading but not posting as others have already posted my views but I had to respond to your post about multigenerational living as that is our situation. Joy and family moved in with us 18 months ago. My SIL smokes but not in the house. He smoked before he met Joy and has never smoked around her or in his house before he met her. My mom has never smoked in our house. Our dd, Erica used to smoke before she got pregnant and has never smoked in our house nor around her brother even when she was watching him while I worked. Her dh still smokes and goes outside away from the house he owned before they became a couple. The op's son is, imo, flaunting his adulthood and daring her to "kick" him out. Chances are he was smoking while he was underage but it's only now that it's legal for him to do so that he is doing in her face. As a mom who's adult children have (and in the case of Joy and her family, lives) lived at home, the relationship between parents and adult children needs to change into an adult roommate relationship. And the adult son of the op isn't acting as an adult.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
He's 20 and will NOT quit smoking in the house and it it making me want to really really smack him.

I wake up in the middle of the night because I can smell it - he's downstairs smoking. He smokes while I'm at work. I tell him not to and he says OK and then just keeps doing it. *I've reasoned with him, gotten mad at him, thrown out his smokes, his lighter, not spoken to him for days, nothing works. He spends a few days smoking in the garage and next thing I know he's back in the house. How do I punish an adult who simply ignores the rules like that???* He works 35 or so hours a week and other than that he's home almost all the time, in the basement, playing WoW. And smoking. My house smells disgusting and I am SICK of it. Right now I just want to puke the smell is so gross.

I can't make him do anything - that simply doesn't work. Hasn't for a few years now. I need to come up with a way to make him want to do it, or for it to be more uncomfortable for him to do not it than do it, if I want him to do anything.

To me, what I've bolded seems dramatic and passive aggressive and you're not treating him like an adult. Smoke in the house and I won't talk to you? Most people of all ages work best in the world when they have rules and consequences for breaking them. A lot of people do the right thing just because, but clearly your son doesn't seem to be one of them. I'm 36 years old and would never break one of my dad's rules in his home. Out of respect. You're giving your son way more respect than he's giving you. If it were my home, my health and the health of my other children I would tell my child that they needed to stop or find somewhere else to live. That's a natural consequence of breaking the house rules, not having your mommy be mad at you.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
The op's son is, imo, flaunting his adulthood and daring her to "kick" him out. Chances are he was smoking while he was underage but it's only now that it's legal for him to do so that he is doing in her face. As a mom who's adult children have (and in the case of Joy and her family, lives) lived at home, the relationship between parents and adult children needs to change into an adult roommate relationship. And the adult son of the op isn't acting as an adult.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
For everyone who jumped on me about not letting an adult child disrespect the rules of the house, I'd just like to say that I was one of the ones who suggested asking him to find a different living situation....on the first page. <snip>

<snip> This particular point I'm making has *nothing to do with the smoking situation* (which is why I stated in my last post that it was tangential). I'm talking about attitudes regarding family, in general. What's wrong with living together if it works for everyone?

Okay, I'm done beating the dead horse. It does seem, however, that Savithny is the only one who "gets" what I was talking about.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

2xy, In the case of the op and her son, it's not working for everyone. It's not like the op allowed smoking in the past and has arbitrarily changed the house rules all of a sudden. The rule was there and her son is chosing to ignore it and his mother's reasonable request to follow it. There was an attempt at a compromise--smoke in the garage. He has chosen to ignore that as well. He is the one with the choice to be an adult and follow the existing rule just like he does elsewhere or he can look for another place to live that will allow him to smoke indoors. This isn't a case of "oh, I forgot"; an excuse that I don't accept from my 11 yo son, let alone from a 20 yo adult. In rl, that excuse doesn't fly with the officer stopping a speeder or DUI or confronting a shoplifter or with an employer. Why should the op accept it from her adult son?

And for the record, my adult children have lived at home well into their 20's and we are now a multi generational household, for 18 months and counting, with no plans to change it in the foreseeable future. It works because the adults respect each other. We have rules and all abide by them. If there is any question, it is addressed and some sort of compromise/agreement is reached.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
2xy, In the case of the op and her son, it's not working for everyone.

Yes, I know. For the third time, my tangential question had nothing to do with smoking or the OP's situation. I was talking about adult children living at home *in general.*


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Yes, I know. For the third time, my tangential question had nothing to do with smoking or the OP's situation. I was talking about adult children living at home *in general.*

And that is what I was addressing. Smoking is just the sign that the living arrangement isn't working. That the normal and usual give and take of any adults living together isn't working regardless of the relationship. Since it's not working, the son needs to be told to move out as the house "belongs" to the mother. As an example, Erica rented a room in a co-worker's house for a time in her 20s. She didn't smoke in the house; it was against the house rules. She smoked outside on the porch. If she had gone against any of the rules of the house (not just the smoking), she would have been evicted. Her roommate/landlord would have been well within her legal rights to ask Erica to leave. If you remove the personal relationship from equation with the op and her son, that is exactly the situation. Because of the relationship, the op has tried to meet her son more than half way but he isn't willing to reciprocate.

Edited to add. If when Erica was 20 and living at home, she was smoking in the house and/or around her brother, yes, I would have given her the same choices: smoke outside/in the garage or move out. We never had to give her those choices. The rules hadn't changed simply because she became an adult and she respected them.


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## darcytrue (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hillymum* 
I'm sorry but I would kick him out! If he has money to burn then he can find his own place to polute. Sounds harsh but why put up with someone who shows you no respect?

this is kind of how I feel. Although I do have a 14 yr old and I know that he will probably do things I don't agree with in life. I do know that after seeing his grandmother die from lung cancer due to years and years of smoking that he thinks it's a very nasty habit.

Perhaps you can get a video showing what black lungs look like or people with breathing difficulties like emphysema and lung cancer and what it can do to some people.







I know that's harsh but it's really a very nasty and dangerous habit. He's so young that he can stop now and possibly add more years to his life.


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## darcytrue (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
A few people have mentioned that it's time for the kid to find his own way, stretch his wings, gain independence, etc. This is the same community that encourages extended breastfeeding and co-sleeping, both of which the mainstream community tends to see as over-the-top. But it's somehow over-the-top for a 20yo to still be living at home??? This particular point I'm making has nothing to do with the smoking situation (which is why I stated in my last post that it was tangential). I'm talking about attitudes regarding family, in general. What's wrong with living together if it works for everyone?

I agree somewhat. I have no problem with my children living at home until they are 30 or until they decide to get married if that's what they want to do.







"But" they would have to respect my rules since it's my home. They would also be required to pay towards utilities and our mortgage once they are adult age and working, especially if they choose to waste $$ on cigs or anything else that is a waste of money (IMO anyway).


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## MadiMamacita (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darcytrue* 
Perhaps you can get a video showing what black lungs look like or people with breathing difficulties like emphysema and lung cancer and what it can do to some people.

i have been reading this thread, but havent commented until now.
this will not work. i smoked for a long, long time. i saw all sorts of horrible pictures, videos, etc. it didn't change anything, not one bit.

I have to agree with all the PP's who have suggested that if this is as big a deal to you as your OP made it sound, he can either choose to stop smoking in the house, or you can help him find a place where he can smoke indoors. This is the only thing that will get him to stop smoking inside.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadiMamacita* 
i have been reading this thread, but havent commented until now.
this will not work. i smoked for a long, long time. i saw all sorts of horrible pictures, videos, etc. it didn't change anything, not one bit.

My FIL was a heavy smoker after he got out of the Army. He went through med school, and seeing the lungs of smokers is what made him quit.


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