# Truly, Madly, Guiltily



## Mya (Apr 26, 2005)

This article was the topic for Oprah show that aired 4/20. I tried to link it but it wouldn't work. But let me know what you think about it. Pay attention to the quote in bold!

Truly, Madly, Guiltily
By AYELET WALDMAN

Published: March 27, 2005

HAVE been in many mothers' groups - Mommy and Me, Gymboree, Second-Time Moms - and each time, within three minutes, the conversation invariably comes around to the topic of how often mommy feels compelled to put out. Everyone wants to be reassured that no one else is having sex either. These are women who, for the most part, are comfortable with their bodies, consider themselves sexual beings. These are women who love their husbands or partners. Still, almost none of them are having any sex.

_[admin note: remainder of article removed. Please get permission from the copyright holder to reproduce the article in full here and include that in your post. Otherwise point readers to the location of the article online]_


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## OTMomma (Aug 12, 2003)

http://www.oprah.com/tows/booksseen/..._kmose_b.jhtml

Is that the link?


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## OTMomma (Aug 12, 2003)

There is something about the author's attitude, that I don't like. She seems condesending towards other moms. I don't like that. Though, actually I agree with her somewhat, that it is healthy to love your spouse more than your children. Assuming that both parents do love their children. I think a healthy family is built on a healthy marriage.
But I dont see anything wrong with dh doing housework as foreplay. It really does turn me on these days. :LOL


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OTMomma*
There is something about the author's attitude, that I don't like. She seems condesending towards other moms. I don't like that.

You hit the nail on the head for me. I think she thinks she is better than all the moms she met at Mommy and Me. And I think that it shows that she is obviously insecure about something. Why else would she be writing her essay the way she did and going on talk shows putting down women who do put their children first?

If I had to say, I would say I love my dc more. There are things my dh could do to make me stop loving him, but there is nothing my children could do to lose my love.

But do I love my dh, yes! Do I try to focus on having a healthy and happy marriage by sometimes putting his wants over the children's wants? Yes.

But you will never hear me say I love him more. Or that I could imagine a life without my children but not without my dh. Frankly, I would go on no matter who died, but I would be devastated no matter what.


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

BTW, moving this to PI, since it doesn't deal directly with SAHMing.


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## MajaKatrina (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mya*
This article was the topic for Oprah show that aired 4/20. I tried to link it but it wouldn't work. But let me know what you think about it. Pay attention to the quote in bold!

Truly, Madly, Guiltily
By AYELET WALDMAN

Published: March 27, 2005

HAVE been in many mothers' groups - Mommy and Me, Gymboree, Second-Time Moms - and each time, within three minutes, the conversation invariably comes around to the topic of how often mommy feels compelled to put out. Everyone wants to be reassured that no one else is having sex either. These are women who, for the most part, are comfortable with their bodies, consider themselves sexual beings. These are women who love their husbands or partners. Still, almost none of them are having any sex.
][/i]

I missed that one need to go look it up


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

I did not like this article. I mean it is great that it works for them and that this is her experience, but a lot of stuff about it bothered me. The disdain for the other moms bothered me, especially as she is talking about the interactions she has at mommy and me. How can a half hour in a social setting give accurrate representations of the intracasies of their sexuality enough to make a judgement? Also she fails to take into account the hormonal and instinctual reasons behind being so wrapped up in your baby and why some women have low libdo after having a baby. Biologically speaking, babies are born so dependant and vulnerable, that it is instinct to be wrapped up in your baby in order to help insure it's survival. Maybe this woman and others can dampen that instinct, but for me, it has been a valuable tool in my mothering. I also don't feel that I have this limit on my love; my amount of love is infinite, it grows to encompass my whole family and my deep love for dh is enhanced by my deep love for my children. Another huge thing that she left out was that this loss of libido is most often temporary, you can focus on your baby for the first six months or year and slowly ease back to your usual sexy self. I also feel that my kids are going to in this state of being so dependant on me for only for a few short years, and I will most likely have a long future of being alone with dh. BTW- I have a wonderful, fullfilling, adventurous sex-life, and being in love with my kids has not impeded it.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Waldman would like to think, so says her essay, the children whose parents love each other more than they love their kids turn out "wonderfully"

Perhaps, she needs to think about 2 recent situations involving Presidents.

Nancy and Ronald Regan were clearly in the Waldman model.

Would you want their kids??? Not me. They all seemed to dislike their parents until their father became so ill that they felt sorry for him

Now Bill and Hillary Clinton have not had any sort of "ideal" relationship, but I would thank my lucky stars if my girls turned out like Chelsea!


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## malibusunny (Jul 29, 2003)

it is interesting to see this on two different boards. i didn't read the article on the other board, but the posts were all concurring "yes, i love my dh more" except mine. i love me dh more than i did before we had the baby-- now, added to my romantic love for him and my friendship love for him and my sexual love for him is this new love; parent love if you will-- but i still love my baby more than even all of that.

it also bothered me when she was all "men, libido, etc" because my husband is not always raring to go. i'm not depriving him now, i was overtaxing him before. :LOL give men *some* credit for being more than balls of raging hormones..


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *malibusunny*
it also bothered me when she was all "men, libido, etc" because my husband is not always raring to go. i'm not depriving him now, i was overtaxing him before. :LOL give men *some* credit for being more than balls of raging hormones..









:

I never turn my dh down and often proposition him, but I am still more child centered than husband centered. They need me more and I spend more time with them. I think she is insecure about her relationship with her husband. She seems to need to prove her love for him or something.


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

Maya44--you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the Reagans--that was the very first thought that came to my mind, too!
And I agree with the pps--that my dh could do something that would make me lose love for him, but not my kids.

I am reminded of my grandmother and grandfather. They loved each other to the exclusion of their kids (my mom and her brother). The article has the same tone.
I think that this reflects in how my mom deals with people today. She loves animals more than her own children or grandchildren and is cold and distant.
Too bad for her, really--and for my bro and I growing up.

And unlike the author, I would certainly feel like my life had ended if my children died, but not if my husband died. And I don't think saying that says anything about me (or other moms who feel that way), per se, regardless of what the author implies.

Interesting article. I wouldn't want to befriend this woman in real life.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

I find it ... odd ... to love your partner more than your kids.

Then again, Waldeman is not someone I'd take much advice from in family matters.

http://bad-mother.blogspot.com/2005/...ss-my-ass.html

http://bad-mother.blogspot.com/2005/...r-coaster.html


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Not to put to fine a point on it, but in general Americans do not think very highly of children. Topics like this are raised because people don't beleive that children deserve to be the center of anyone's universe. I mean, they don't make any money! They don't give you organsms! What the heck do these lazy, do-nothing kids do besides give us greif!

I am honestly disgusted by how self centered people are encouraged to be in the US. It's like there's something wrong with who person who makes others important to her.

So, as of the 80's or so, we're not supposed to "need" a man or put a man's needs ahead of ours. And now we're supposed to put our children's needs behind our man's. IMO- that puts the most needy and vulnerable of our society at the bottom of the totem pole.

But let's face it, that's just where our kids are placed in this country. The self comes first, the sex drive a close second, romance after that, then work/earning/comsuming/owning. Then at the very bottom comes the future of mankind, our kids.

...Can you tell I have strong feelings about this?

Me and my husband have sex when we *%()#*%%)# get around to it. We have other things of importance to us in our lives, including our kid- and I don't feel the need to apologize to anyone about my priorities.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Oops, wrong article. I thought this was another article I read recently, hence the vehement response.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

This article just seems like the same story of good mom/bad mom, just a different chapter.

I think she's confusing things a bit. How can you compare being *in* love with your husband with whom you do have a sexual relationship, to being in love with your kids? In my world, those loves are equal in strength, but are *very* different. And how weird is it to have to quantify your love for your family? I honestly have never weighed out my love for my dh vs. dd. Nor do I want to. What does that serve? I love them both, intensely. period. and my sex life is great, thank you very much.

And another thing...um, I don't know about you mamas, but sex does not come up in my playgroups within 30 min. And if it does, it's some off the cuff joke. honest conversations about what is really going on in a marriage are reserved for one on one time with the women I know... but, i guess I live in a different place.

I think it's interesting all of these things that are coming out- this article, and the Judith Warner book about over-achieving moms. I guess Warner's book does place some responsibility on society, but this author doesn't give any mention to the lack of support that mothers get, the lack of paid family time and all that stuff we know would help parents and kids have more quality time together.

this article really pissed me off.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

i just read those blog posts and .... oh.my.god. i'm....i'm.... speechless. can't figure out if it's more from her post or all the people who agreed with her. ugh.

I love MDC......

and what's up with her books? _Playdate with Death_?

and she has the same blog template as me. Must change. Immediately.


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
I find it ... odd ... to love your partner more than your kids.

Then again, Waldeman is not someone I'd take much advice from in family matters.

http://bad-mother.blogspot.com/2005/...ss-my-ass.html

http://bad-mother.blogspot.com/2005/...r-coaster.html
















:









After reading that I would never give ANY weight to anything that woman said.

Is there a disgust smiley that I missed?


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## mollykatsmom (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gethane*














:









After reading that I would never give ANY weight to anything that woman said.

Is there a disgust smiley that I missed?

uke


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

I adore my DH. Iwould die for him, I would do anythig to make his life better. (I love ME, too, so I wouldn't get nuts or anything!)

But I would KILL for my kids. My dh knows this, and understands it.

I'm going to skip reading the article. I hated jsut the small quote!


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

OMG--those blog entries--how absolutely horrifying!


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

That blog is really disturbing. Is that supposed to be fiction? It's just heartbreaking that anyone would be so casually cruel and dismissive to their children. "Vomiting is manipulation" my ass.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

My dh and I BOTH love our kids more than each other. I could handle it okay if, God forbid, something happened to him. But if something happened to my kids, I would be totally and utterly devastated TO THE CORE. Geez, how many friggin' marriages end in DIVORCE, anyway? If those women loved their dh's more than their kids, what happens when the spouses end up hating each other? Blech.

And love and sex don't have to go hand in hand. Sorry, but it's true. And I'm after my dh for it every day of the week, literally. It has nothing to do with "love". I really like "sex".


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## momea (Nov 22, 2001)

"I could check my watch to see if I have time to stop at Good Vibrations to see if they have any exciting new toys. I could even gaze pityingly at the other mothers in the group, _wishing that they too could experience a love as deep as my own._"

okaay ... and here I thought love was about more than sex. i guess the more you screw your husband the more you love him.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

I hate articles like this. Even if they have a grain of truth to them, I don't want to dig through a pile of man-as-lustful-caveman, woman-as-asexual-being-who-tends-to-smother-the-kids muck to find them.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Why must she find such fault with other women in order to accept herself the way she is?

How is she not meeting other women with active sex lives? Could it be that women only talk about it when it is a problem? Could it be that many, many parents enjoy a healthy, rewarding sex life *and* are in love with their children?

I am in love with dh. I am in love with dd. Those are two very different kinds of love.

And, at 4, my dd requires a much more work-intensive kind of love than dh--less so than infancy and toddlerhood, tho, and lessening all the time. Dh, otoh, goes off to work each day, finds a way to feed himself, work out, commute, communicate with his peers....all on his own! He doesn't *need* me the way dd does. We find find that a few kind words and late night cuddles go a long way toward maintaining our love, while dd needs much, much more on a daily basis, kwim?


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

I dislike the general tone of the article, too.

But I also object to the dichotomy she seems to see between good marriages and child-centered families.

I think it's possible to have both, given that both the adults involved are mature, reasonably emotionally healthy, and have at least a little bit of outside support.

In my extended family, I've seen several models of strong marriages in the context of child-centered homes. In fact, my brother and his wife, who tend to put the married-couple relationship first and the kids second, are gossiped about and it's implied that they're kind of "weird" and "selfish." On the other hand, nobody in the family ever saw or heard of AP before, but they all seem to dig the way we're parenting our son. My parents, both sets of grandparents, assorted aunts and uncles, all have enjoyed lifelong, happy marriages.

For the record, I think my husband and I have a pretty great relationship, but I had basically zero sex drive until the return of Aunt Flo 15 months postpartum







And, well, I thought I knew what it meant to really love somebody, until my son was born. Frankly, I'd throw DH off a cliff for our son's sake... and he'd let me.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I just went onto that blog and I AM SHOCKED! I left her a little comment, I can't understand why people like this woman even have kids!! why!!


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## malibusunny (Jul 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sylith*
I dislike the general tone of the article, too.

But I also object to the dichotomy she seems to see between good marriages and child-centered families.

...

And, well, I thought I knew what it meant to really love somebody, until my son was born. Frankly, I'd throw DH off a cliff for our son's sake... and he'd let me.


yes! and vice versa. and i don't think i could love him if this weren't true.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

So if this woman is so fulfilled, why is she on antidepressants?

Not to put down anti-depressants and those who take them, but it makes me question how happy a person is if they need them.

Another thing....
I am not a big Oprah fan, but I get irritated sometimes by some of the stuff that seems to come out of the Oprah factory that is pro-woman, but anti-child.

I'm all for pro-woman, but I don't like that it's considered OK sometimes of kids get the shaft.

Just a thought.


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

She's bipolar and I think has attempted suicide (I can't get into Salon to read the rest of her article).


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

People don't generally take antidepressants because their life circumstances are unfufilling. They take antidepressants because they are experiencing depression. (Or other problems.)

The best life in the world is not a "fix" for bipolar.


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## june'smom (Nov 8, 2003)

Quote:

Frankly, I'd throw DH off a cliff for our son's sake... and he'd let me.
I don't think my dh would want to stay with me if I chose him over our dd. He woudl expect me to be a mother first. And I very much expect that from him. I think it is just ridiculous for a marriage to be based on the same things after you have kids as before. The marriage relationship has to change. Sometimes for a second I miss the way it was before, but I would never choose to go back to that. Kids change things. If you don't want those changes, don't have kids.

Louise


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Can I just say that I have been to many a playgroup, gymboree class, library program, gymnastics class, swimming class, etc. and I have never once, not even a single time heard or participated in any discussion about sex, or lack thereof. Maybe it's the conservative midwest that I live in, but it just isn't discussed casually!

The blog has left me with my jaw dropped and scratching my head. I really feel for her kids when they are older and see the show, read the article, and that blog. But I'm sure they are already perfectly clear on how their mother feels for them.

Bec


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## eleven (Aug 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
Not to put to fine a point on it,

say I'm the only bee in your bonnet.

Sorry.







:

This discussion is very interesting. There has to be a balance somehow. There was also a good thread on this topic in television: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=276056 .


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

You know what really got me about that article was the line "in the vicodin and percoset fog of new motherhood"???? What???? I didn't know that ANY mothers had vicodin and percoset after having a baby unless they had a c-section, and even then it's one or the other, definitely not both.

This woman strikes me as depressed, insecure, and selfish. It is one thing to say,I love my husband, and he will be there even if something happens, and when the children leave the nest. It is another to say"God forbid if anything happends to my child I can go on because I know my husband will be there". Children are our future, not our husbands. It is the children that we must put before out outselves. Who does she think is going to care for her when her husband is not able to, or God forbid her husband passes away? Someone has mentioned that his woman is on anti-depressants and that does not surprise me. I wonder if she is indeed very co-dependant on her husband. To be in love with your husband is a wonderful, beautiful experience. She is lucky in that respect because some women are not granted the life of living with a
man they adore, but shaping your life around your husband is not healthy.

A marriage is work, yes. It does take work to find time to make love when you have children and other responsibilities. But when you have children, they become part of your marriage, your family. A marriage is never the same after children arrive. It changes to accomidate you children, your future, the ones who will carry on the family. So for God's sake, you do NEED to put them first. I am not saying by any respect that a woman should sacrifice her marriage for her children, but that before you have children, if you are married, make sure that your marriage is strong enough the withstand that added stress. This woman has achieved the structure in her marriage by putting her husband before her children. I wonder, what would her marriage be like if she put her children first? Would her husband be the same man he is? It sound almost like her husband puts more effort into putting the children first.

When she says "I love my children, but I am not in love with them" she means that literally. Well, I love my special bear that I still have from my childhood but I am not in love with it. I disagree that "loving" and "in love" mean seperate things. The act of loving is being "in love". However, when most people hear the term "in love" the automatically think of romantic love. In that sense, this woman is right, she is not romantically in love with her children. Of course not, since that would make her a criminal. But if you love your children, your are "in love" with them, just not romantically, of course. You are in love with them because your children, you life, your extension, your family, the ones who will carry on in your absence. It has been said there is nothing like the precious love a mother has for her child. This love should not be undermined in any way. A womans love for her husband should not undermine the love and care she provides to her children.
I remember my midwife telling me after the birth of my first child: "Just relax and fall in love with your baby" and I knew exactly what she meant.

Now mamas I know that a healthy marriage is the core of a healthy, happy family. But when you choose to enhance that family with children, they will ulitmately come first. You love your husbands, and your children. You and your husband fall in love with your children, and provide them with the best that you can. Take time to yourselves when you can, spend time together when the children are sleeping, go out on the town when you are able and ready, take time for your marriage. But remember who is your future.


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## malibusunny (Jul 29, 2003)

ha, that line stuck out to me, too. it seems she has, from the very beginning, held herself apart from her children. at least they have each other. imagine being this woman's only child.

the blog made me cry into my sleeping baby's neck.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I have read all of Ayalet Waldman's "Mommy Track" mysteries and I love them. They are hilarious, they contain lots of truth about parenting, and they're well-written. (They are about a former public defender turned sahm, who gets drawn into private investigating now and then, in case anyone's interested).

I like it when mothers write honestly about their experience of motherhood. Which is what Waldman has done here, and more power to her. I think it's fine to point out that you (general "you") don't happen to feel the same way about your own marriage and children - as a matter of fact, I don't feel that way, either - but I don't understand why some feel it's necessary to pick her apart and to suggest that people like her shouldn't have children.


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## kate-astrophe (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pease*









say I'm the only bee in your bonnet.

Sorry.







:

make a little birdhouse in your soul.







:


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama*
but I don't understand why some feel it's necessary to pick her apart and to suggest that people like her shouldn't have children.

She put herself and her opinion on marriage and children out there by writing about it. She left herself open to it by being so disdainful of the women in her playgroup that aren't getting any. You reap what you sow.


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## kate-astrophe (Jan 26, 2004)

She said something on her blog (and I think someone mentioned it here) about being bipolar. One of the symptoms of biploar disease is a very high sex drive during the mania phase. You can imagine how a powerful sex drive can influence your view of the world: it can make sex a *very* important thing.

I've known a few bipolar women in my life and the passionate, all-consuming relationships they crave (and what Ayelet Waldman seems to have) can be a stabilizing influence in their lives (when it's working for both partners. But watch out if someone leaves!) So I'm not going to get down on her for "loving her husband more than her kids", (even though some of the things she confessed about her own parenting turns my stomach). It may be the thing that's keeping her together.

-Kate


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

We're talking about a woman who folds over the pages of books. Clearly, she must be lying when she says she's a bookworm. No true bookworm would do this. Therefore, she could be lying about the rest of it, too, and shouldn't be paid any attention to.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama*
but I don't understand why some feel it's necessary to pick her apart and to suggest that people like her shouldn't have children.

I didn't relate to her article one way or another and didn't much care about her opinion there, but I think people who casually write about leaving their children to lie in their vomit in their cribs (because the child is just being "manipulative") should not have children. Maybe you missed that part.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Absolutely she should do what works for her and her family, but it is given out like parenting advice on the Oprah show, and I think recommending that moms be less in love with their kids is a pretty wild recommendation.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmer mama*
Absolutely she should do what works for her and her family, but it is given out like parenting advice on the Oprah show, and I think recommending that moms be less in love with their kids is a pretty wild recommendation.









:


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

I'm tired of what appears to be a lot of anti-attachment parenting backlash lately. Has anyone noticed that? Between this and the Judith Warner book... can some pro-attachment celebrity please stand up?

(just to add more fuel to the fire, because all these polarizing parenting arguments in the media are oh-so-enlightening







)


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I like to blame everything on those frickin' nanny shows on TV. I know they are theoretically GD (in that there is no hitting) IMO they are very results-oriented and "tough talking."

They tend to demonize lack of control over kids and prescribe lots of stuff that I feel is kinda anti AP.

I don't want to debate these shows- but I think they contribute to the balck/white way of seeing things. Usually- "out of control" vs "in control".

Not so much "working with" kids IMO.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I read the article when it was in the NYT a few weeks ago, and I didn't think she was being disdainful about the other women at all. Just pointing out how foreign their experience is to hers. And I also didn't see her bashing AP. And I must have missed the part in her article where she recommended people to be not in love with their children. I thought she was simply describing how she herself felt about her kids vs. her husband, not telling others how to feel. I certainly don't remember the article telling anyone to leave kids in their own vomit! The attitude toward her here really puzzles me, since anyone who has read her books knows her (the protagonist is a very thinly disguised version of herself) to be as loving and caring toward her kids as any one taking part in this discussion. I didn't see her on Oprah, so I can't comment on that.


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

Then I suggest you read her blog, linked above.


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

ack I feel a little nervous writing this. no flaming please. I also haven't read the link, but from what I gathered from pp I certainly do not condone her attitude.

BUT - I do love my DH more than my child. I realized this about a month ago and felt really weird about it, and hugely guilty, and somehow lacking in being what a mother should be.
maybe it's hormones, maybe it's because I'm a mother to a toddler.

My DH is my soulmate and has been for 12 years. I sometimes feel like I am him and he is me. Of course he irritates me, but our connection is so strong. The idea of living without him horrifies me. Then again, I refuse to think about living with my DS.

I sometimes wonder if it has to do with my own scars from childhood. When I feel guilty about my realization I inaccurately think it has more to do with my inability to love me child (which is not true at all) rather than the perfect connection i have with DH.

My guess it is a mixture between my experiences being mothered by my mother, and my relationship with my husband.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Thanks for sharing your own perspective and there is nothing wrong with feeling the way you do. I think people get upset by the article and the Oprah show because the vibe is more like parenting advice on how to keep a fulfilling sex life by not falling in love with your kids. But I could be reading too much into it. From the Oprah website on the page about the show and article, it says "Sure, mothers love their children, but should they be in love with them? Moms talk about how they raise their children and care for their marriages." I guess the "should" in there is what concerns me. To me it sounds to me like being in love with your kids = poor relationship = poor sex life. That isn't how it works in my family. Maybe it should say "but are all of them in love with them".


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

zinemama, the blog entry about leaving babies to cry and vomit is here:

http://bad-mother.blogspot.com/2005/...ss-my-ass.html


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

I haven't read most of this thread, though I did read the article linked. I think it's important to put your relationship with your husband first. He's your life partner, the one you've chosen to bind yourself to. Your children are only with you for part of your life. I'm not saying don't love your children, but I think that it's good to love your dh more than your kids.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Yes, but again.... the majority of marriages end in divorce. I might end up despising my dh 20 years from now, but never, ever my children.

Period.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't think I love dh more than my kids or love my kids more than him. I love them all overwhelmingly in completely different ways. I don't think I could frame that love in terms of "more than" or "equal to", because it's just not really comparable. The relationships are very different.

Now, I do put my children first, as does my husband, based on where they are in their lives. They are very young and needy. As they grow older, I'm sure that they won't always come first in everything.

I just can't compare my love for my husband to my love for my children and I'm not even sure if I feel comfortable with the idea of measuring love like that; it seems to imply that there's competition, rather than a cooperative family relationship.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

LeftField, I wrote exactly the same thing in my first post. Being 'in' love with your kids and 'in' love with your dh are different, imo, and it's pointless to try and compare or measure. honestly, what is the point? what does it serve? then you get moms* who never thought about it before all the sudden analyzing their relationships with their kids and husbands and feeling either guilty or vindicated because they're doing it "right" or "not right" according to one person's POV, and because she's a published author and was on Oprah is now going to be elevated to some sort of expert status.

(*except for those of us on MDC who are entirely secure with our love of both partners and children







)

Mamma2Sammo... if you are sure that you love your dh more, that's fine. No flames here. But before you start feeling guilty- honestly- can you compare the 2? different is not unequal.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

That will be the day I need to love a man *that* much. Even if my dh died tomorow, I'd still have a life. I'd be devastated, but it's not like I'd put a bullet through my head, for gosh sakes. ( And as much as I love my dh, I can't say the same if my children met a horrible end while I was still alive).

How many women have given their entire lives to men who leave them at mid life or beyond? And to perhaps sacrifice a child to the whims of it's other parent's changing emotions/and/or mid- life crisis? Yikes. "Thanks for saving me as the baby drowned all those years ago, but I never knew i could feel this way about another person".

I am actually embarrased by her all encompassing need for her dh. That's kinda sad, really. She may have an excellent command of the English language, and a literary mind, but her nascent thinking about the man/woman, mother/child relationship is frightening. How naive can a woman be?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I think that those who feel they could sacrifice their child are those with tiny infants or young toddlers. These children are almost non-people- an extension of the self. When that child grows and becomes 'fully human' and has a full personality, full emotions that you can relate to, things change.

I would like to hear this same feeling from mothers of children who are out of toddlerhood and very early childhood.

if you are posting that you could let your children die so your dh could live and your children are not infants or toddlers, please post. I would love to hear your prespective.

Like I said, I don't need any man *that* much. But that's me and I appreciate that others think differently.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

About living after the death of a child, or the death of a spouse....

Outliving our children is not natural. We expect them to outlive us. That is what is supposed to happen.

Many more of us can expect to experience the death of a spouse in our lifetime. While I hope that dh and I live long lives, I do expect that one of us will experience the death of the other. That is natural.

Furthermore, the death of a child involves the added grief of the death of a person so young. A life not lived. A person never developed. Is there anything sadder than a tiny casket, no matter whose baby?

Lastly, in addition to the love I feel for dd, I also feel a fierce need to protect her. Dh does as well. If there was one reason that we would sacrifice each other for her, it is this protectiveness--not that we love one more and one less.


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

Mamma2Sammo... if you are sure that you love your dh more said:


> I agree you can't compare the two, and I'm not sure I love DH more. I think they are different, and you are right different is not unequal.
> 
> I have been realizing since writing this post is much has to do with my history. My complete awareness of couples breaking up. My mother was divorced twice by the time I was 12. I am aware of that loss, and can apply that to my own relationship with DH. The thought of a separation (divorce or death) takes my breath away by the thought.
> 
> ...


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
I think that those who feel they could sacrifice their child are those with tiny infants or young toddlers. These children are almost non-people- an extension of the self. When that child grows and becomes 'fully human' and has a full personality, full emotions that you can relate to, things change.


well, i only have a toddler, and I can tell you, she is definitley a person! I'm not taking offense at your post, I know what you mean but others might react rather strongly to that. Regardless of how developed your child's personality is, they are still your child. Personality does not strengthen love, imo, though it's a part of the feelings.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I read the article, but not the blog entries.

I'm not sure i love or hate the article, it didn't ring true all the way for me.

As far as love/in love...i love my husband dearly, and i love my children too. with a great passion. But like someone else said, there are things that could make me stop loving my husband, but there isn't anything that would ever make me stop loving my child.

That doesn't mean that i don't put a great deal of effort into our marital relationship. I have been one of those moms who believe, deep down, that one of the best things me and my husband do for our children is to love and respect each other. That a healthy loving relationship is not only a gift to ourselves but to our three children. And yes, we have sex. lots of it. It is important to us, to make love, to remind ourselves we are more than just roommates. My libido has been up and down. But i don't think i am a better wife because we make love several times a week, but i also don't think that because i am in tune with my husband, that i love him and nurture him that this in any way negates the attachment to my children (which is sometimes how i feel when i read posts/threads here...as if somehow not having sex for 2 yrs, sleeping in separate rooms, not showering for a week at a time somehow proves your devotion to your children). I shower daily, i take care of myself. I run, bike and get my hair highlighted! And i have sex with my husband! But i also carpool volunteer and spend a great deal of my time caring for and nurturing my kids.

I don't think it has to be mutually exclusive.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
I find it ... odd ... to love your partner more than your kids.

Then again, Waldeman is not someone I'd take much advice from in family matters.

http://bad-mother.blogspot.com/2005/...ss-my-ass.html

http://bad-mother.blogspot.com/2005/...r-coaster.html











I read these before the link from the OP ... and now am totally not going to read the link from the OP.

She sounds awful.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Newmainer-- i totally hear ya!

But I think the author has small children, and so i was giving her the benefit of the doubt. She sounds so sad/angry/near manic, that I thought that maybe she hadn't finished bonding with them, perhaps? They are still young, was my understanding. I cannot imagine their being old enough to understand was she was publically professing. Some things are better told only to your therapist/lover, yk? Will her children be bothered by her revealing such thoughts about them? She has a right, I know. but still...that's hard -to -take info (for some)...


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
Newmainer-- i totally hear ya!

But I think the author has small children, and so i was giving her the benefit of the doubt. She sounds so sad/angry/near manic, that I thought that maybe she hadn't finished bonding with them, perhaps? They are still young, was my understanding. I cannot imagine their being old enough to understand was she was publically professing. Some things are better told only to your therapist/lover, yk? Will her children be bothered by her revealing such thoughts about them? She has a right, I know. but still...that's hard -to -take info (for some)...


One of her dd's is 10 or 11!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Maya- i didn't realize that.

I don't know what to think. She has a total right to her emotions. Although I truly love (and actually, adore) my dh and his cute, sexy, loving self, I have very primordial emotions towards my children. I am a quintessential Mama Bear and I can't relate to her.

I am trying to respect her emotions, however, even while i do not relate to them at all.


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