# Help? Babe was born 5 days ago, my milk still isn't in.



## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

This is really really frustrating... Orion was born tuesday, and my milk isn't even close to coming in yet (my breasts are still very soft). I'm hoping for some suggestions and also to ask if this could be related to all the medications I had during labor (mag sulfate, pitocin) which is what one of the IBCLC's I've seen at the hospital is thinking.

*Please* help if you can, I'm so upset about this... I couldn't have my homebirth, so a part of me feels like I "failed" there (I know, I know, we had a reason to be at the hospital, but I can't deny my feelings), and now I can't even make milk for my baby









DS is a *great* nurser. He latches on wonderfully, so our problems do not lie there (but if you know why he sometimes <1-2 times a day> wants to obviously nurse but then won't latch when the breast is right there and just gets more and more mad please let me know). We have seen a IBCLC who verified his latch is great.

Here's what we're doing right now: DS lost more than 10% of his birth weight as well as was nursing 90% of the time (and screaming if he wasn't nursing... obviously hungry). So I'm using a SNS to feed him. Gets him some food, and still keeps him nursing.

I'm pumping my breasts after most feedings. I must admit after the 3, 4 and 5 am ones (he likes to cluster feed then) I'm not doing it every time then. But I do pump every 2-4 hours (usually 2). I'm using a medela lactina if that matters. I massage my breasts when I pump (I try when he's feeding, but its difficult with my hands full). I *know* that what I pump is not what I'm really producing, but I've been pumping for 2 days and the bottom of the storage bottles is barely covered.

I don't let DS wait more than 2-3 hours between feedings.

I called another IBCLC to get more help, hopefully I'll get a call back tommorow.

Any suggestions? Is my milk ever going to come in?

Thanks for any help...


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Lisa, I had no idea he was even born! I haven't been around enough lately. Can I please come over and help you? I will come make you some nursing tea and some other milk unducing treats. I'll even wash your diapers. I'll call you tomorrow.

Lauren
etided to fixt 'treas' so it says 'treats"


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thank you Lauren! Yes you can certainly come over and help, thank you!! I don't need my dipes washed yet, we're using up the disposibles that I was given for gifts first... with all the stuff I have to deal with to try to get nursing to work I just can't manage diapers yet. Matt's last day off is tommorow, and I really want to enjoy that last day (wish he would take more time off) with him alone, but anytime after that would be wonderful! I'll talk to you tommorow and we can find a time that works. Thank you so much!!

I hope the move has gone well for you!


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## bloodrayne (Mar 5, 2003)

Congratulations on his birth, Lisa, and I hope you get this figured out soon! Be sure to update us. I was wondering if he was here yet and how you were doing.


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## Angie676 (Apr 30, 2003)

Just wanted to jump in with support. My milk didn't come in until my son was six days old. I am almost positive it was because I was overhydrated with IV's, but I don't have any "proof". Had a c-section, pain killers, and antibiotics.

Andrew lost 13% of his weight but on the 7th day turned around and stopped losing. On the 8th day he had started gaining again. So from someone who's been in your (terrified) shoes, hugs!


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## AmyG (Jan 30, 2002)

My best advice would be to get in bed and stay there, if you're not already. I see from the previous posts that you're accepting help, so that's a great sign. You need lots of energy to make milk, so laying in bed will help you save yours. It will also help you smell that baby all the time, which gets those mama hormones going.

Good luck! I've never had that problem, but I'm sure it must be incredibly frustrating.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Lisa, you say you aren't "letting" ds go longer than 2 or 3 hours between nursing. But you also say he is nursing all the time. It is quite common for a newborn to nurse literally non-stop for hours at a time. Going 3 hours between feeds is not "all the time?"

My ds nursed for 3 hours straight his first night out of me. 1/2 hour, up, burp, other side. 1/2 hour, up, burp, other side. Milk came in in 24 hours. But that was after an easy homebirth.

My suggestion is to let O nurse at will, for 45 mins if necc, then 15 min break (whe you run to bathroom, eat and have big drink, and a stretch), then another long session. If he is nursing all the time like this, there would be no need to pump, IF he is really latched on correctly.


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## mamabutterfly (Jun 23, 2002)

(((((( Lisa )))))))) Hugs to you! I'm sure things will work out quickly and you two will settle in to a great nursing relationship in time. I know it's frustrating. I remember crying *a lot* from worry!

Sorry if this is obvious, but are you confident that your fluid intake and nutrition are all that they should be? I only ask because I know it is so overwhleming when caring for a newborn to care for yourself too. It's like there isn't enough time for everything.

Just this week I talked to my friend who just gave birth to a babe prematurely and was nursing/pumping in the NICU all day every day... and she mentioned while on the phone "All I can do is grab donuts in the vending machine in between visiting him!"







Poor thing. I'm not suggesting that's you at all, lol, but I know it's hard to prepare nutrious foods, avoid those things that don't help breastmilk production (like caffeine) and drink more fluids that you ever think you need. But it is important. Let Lauren come bring you that nursing tea, lol!









Hang in there! Good luck,

mamabutterfly


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Hi Lisa,

It's hard when it takes awhle for milk to come in. I was 4 days with dd1, and it was hard going.

With the other two, I was just two days - but that was a lot of nrusing. As Darryl says, I woke them to nurse very often - every hour or so at least. And that brought the milk in more quickly.

As for sometimes not taking the breast when it is right there and Orion is hungry - my ds will do this at times. Very strange. Not srue what the cause is, but it usually just takes 4-5 minutes of patience (and sitting him up - sometimes he just has a burp to get up) and then he'll latch on.

Hugs to you,
Carolyn


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thanks everyone!







Sorry to be confusing w/ the 'nursing all the time' and 'not letting him go more than 2-3 hours'. Let me explain:

I should have said pre-supplementing he was nursing all the time. One night from 11pm to 6am he WASN'T nursing maybe an hour total. He was just horribly upset if he wasn't latched on (and not too happy even on). I could tell he was just starving. He also wasn't wetting more than 2 dipes on day 3... so I know he wasn't getting enough.

Since I started supplementing I have to sometimes wake him to nurse. I wake him every 2 hours in the day, and 3 at night. Then we are nursing for about an hour (with the SNS) until he falls back to sleep. Then I pump for oh, 15 minutes (skipping pumping when he eats at 3am though). If he wants to nurse I let him regardless of when he last ate, and I let him go as long as he wants. No schedule or anything, the formula just fills him up so well he'd sleep longer if I let him.

Angie676 thank you SO much for telling me your story. To hear about it taking this long from others is really helpful and gives me hope!

Dh has been taking care of me, feeding me, bringing me water, ect. So no problems there.. And some friends have come w/ dinner, and my MIL is actually being wonderful, bringing food, cleaning, not staying too long after that, ect. Dh does go back to work tommorow though, I am concerned about that...


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

My milk came in when each of my babies was 4 days old. I thought that was normal, and feel surprised to hear some mamas saying 24 hours! Wow!

I think the idea of going to bed with your baby and staying there is a great idea! Like a little baby-honeymoon.







I know that my milk supply was always best when I was well-rested -- in the morning or right after a nap.

Also, drink tons more water than you think you need. You should have a water bottle at hand constantly. Get Dh to refill it for you when he can, or try to coordinate getting up to refill with going pee, so you are not up and down too much.

And nurse as much as possible for as long as he is willing.

Good luck -- I know you are anxious, but I feel confident that your milk *will* come in!


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## gurumama (Oct 6, 2002)

A few other thoughts from a mom whose milk didn't really, truly come in until around 2 weeks (I had a breast reduction, so...).

Rest.

Fluids.

Mother's Milk Tea. Lots of it. It's soothing and it's a good routine to get into in case supply is an issue when your milk does come in.

Keep him sucking! Be careful you're not supplementing too much. You want to give him enough to be healthy and grow, but not so much that he isn't motivated to nurse as often as he'd nurse if he were getting enough of your milk.

Pump after nursing sessions. Get extra attachment pieces for the pump (I had four horns and pieces for my PIS and it wasn't enough!) so that you always have a clean attachment, so pumping isn't hampered by the exhaustion of thinking "oh, man, I have to clean the pump with the baby asleep on my arm and I think I'm going to cry and the universe will swallow me whole and where oh where is my milk!?!"

Be very very gentle with yourself. I think all the drugs do crazy things to our milk supplies--a friend had a c/s and her milk took 6 or 7 days to come in and then BOOM--there it was, copious oceans of milk! So may you be blessed with as much milk as you wish for.

It WILL come in. Just keep the nursing/pumping going.

One more thought: are you eating anything that might inhibit milk supply? Taking decongestants, drinking Peppermint tea, eating sage, etc. Do a careful check of foods/pills/supplements that can inhibit milk and eliminate them.

Best of luck, and welcome to the world Orion!

Mel


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## sarahmae1 (Nov 11, 2002)

I just wanted to say that I was in pretty much your exact same situation w/ my ds. I was on mag. sulfate and pitocin, but they cancelled each other out for me, and I ended up having to be put under for an emergency c-section.

Anyways, after doing some reading and such I'm almost positive that the mag. sulfate was responsible for delaying my milk. I worked w/ a LC doing the exact same things you are doing now. Just keeping my ds on for as long as he wanted, nursing as much as he wanted, waking him if needed, using the SNS, and pumping for 15min. after every feeding. I rented a pump from the hospital, and for me it worked great. I was lucky in that I only had to do the pumping and SNS for about 2 days and my milk came in fully! By days 5-6 my ds and I were doing great w/ milk supply and nursing.

I sure hope that it works just as well for you! I just wanted to let you know that you are doing awesome! Hang in there!


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Calling and still ringing... guess you're on the phone. Call my MIL's house if you still have the #, k?
Otherwise I will call back.








Lauren


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Sorry was on the phone there... I don't have your MIL's number, so give me a ring when you can







Thanks so much!


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## Lucy (Nov 21, 2001)

my milk was very slow to come in. I attribute it to stress, anyway it was about 8 days. I was really scared, my problem was that my baby would not nurse, we saw several lc's, even a speech language person bc of problems with her suck, anyway, I was exclusively pumping, using the lactina like you say you are, every 2 hours, I also was barely covering the bottom of the bottles. I started taking fenugreek which you can buy at gnc, or even walmart, and within 24 hrs I noticed a huge difference. It really dramatically increased my milk production. I am still exclusively pumping, sophia is now 5 months, and I have a ton of milk. You are so blessed in that your babe has no problems nursing, please take comfort in that. Consider the fenugreek, it may jumpstart things for you. I know this is a trying time, hang tight, it will get better! I know I was so sure my milk would never come in, but it did, yours will too!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thank you everyone for sharing your stories and well wishes and confidence. I truly appreciate knowing that others have gone through this. I am VERY appreciative that Orion is such a good nurser, I think I would be out of my mind if I had to deal with that as well.

I have noticed now that Orion does wake up more in the daytime and wants to nurse for comfort, so I'm happy he's getting on the breast more frequently. I'm also able to hand express a couple of drops which I wasn't able to do a day ago (and wow is everyone right, breastmilk is super soothing on sore nipples... I was using lanolin before because I couldn't even get a drop out).

I spoke to a IBCLC on the phone today and she agreed that yes the meds I was on most likely is what is doing this. She said that my milk should come in at the latest in 10-12 days unless I had retained part of my placenta. She said that if my milk didn't come in by then it wasn't likely to come in at all (again unless I've retained part of my placenta). That worries me a bit, but everyone here, and the LC said that things should work out just fine and I'm doing everything I should right now...


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## Raven67 (Apr 20, 2002)

Lisa Lynn, I just wanted to say how much I admire your tenacity and perserverence here. So many women would have just given up and said, "oh, I guess I just don't have any milk." A friend of mine just gave up on day 2 because her milk wasn't in, and the baby "seemed too hungry." So, you are an inspiration for your patience and committment.


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## mrzmeg (Jul 16, 2002)

(((Lisa)))
I second the Mother's Milk tea! Brew up a lot and refridgerate it, then drink it constantly. My MW recommended at least a quart a day until your milk comes it. It really does help.
Hope the milk shows up soon


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thank you Raven! I'm NOT giving this up. Breastfeeding is sooooooo important to me. The SNS is a big pain in the butt, I have to make poor little Orion latch on like 5 times to get him latched on right *with* a little tube in his mouth, and the tops of my breasts are getting rashy from the medical tape to hold the tube in place but nooooooooo way will I give up!

Lauren (Veganmamma) brought me mother's milk tea, and feenugreek and a homopathic remedy to help bring milk in to me today so hopefully that helps. Thank you SOOOOO much Lauren!!!! You're the best!









Now I just have to make myself drink enough of the tea... I don't care for the taste to much! :LOL But I will drink it!

I just had to come here to do a happy dance







Orion just had a lunch of only my Mama's milk! It took me THREE days to pump an ounce, but I did it!














And today when I just pumped I got a couple of little steams for a few seconds instead of just a drip drip here and a drip drip there. Progress! Woo!


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## bananasmom (Aug 2, 2002)

*Lisa* - I admire your strength and tenacity, you have one lucky baby.

May I ask about this:

Quote:

She said that if my milk didn't come in by then it wasn't likely to come in at all
What do you think she meant by not come in at all? Has she had experience with women, for whom milk didn't come in at all?


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Lisa_Lynn_
*
Since I started supplementing*
That could be your problem. That's what destroyed nursing for me with my first and second. My milk takes a while to come in too, but with my last two I didn't give any bottles and it did eventually come in and I nursed both until they self weaned.

Also, don't think that pumping will show how much milk you have. I never could pump and get anything really, but I obviously was making enough milk.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I'm not sure, bananasmom...I'll ask when we speak again...

AnnMarie, I really feel that supplementing was neccisary in my case. At 3 days old, ds wasn't having enough wet/dirty diapers, he was horribly upset all the time from little to eat, had lost 13% of his body weight, and had jaundace almost bad enough to be admitted in for treatment.

How long did it take for your milk to come in with your last? And how did you manage until it did? Neither I, nor the baby slept for a few days because he was SO hungry he just nursed and nursed, screaming every 10 minutes or so.

I'm just trying to do my best to get my milk to come in while not starving my son or having him end up in the hospital because the jaudace won't go away....







I *HATE* that I'm feeding him something besides my milk...


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Being a little bit on the inside of the situation, I can say that from all I have heard from Lisa, they supplementing isn't the problem. She is using an SNS with a tiny flow so that Orion would be stimulating her nipples each time he nursed.

I am convinced that the drugs that the hospital used to augment Lisa's labor are directly affecting her milk supply. Obviously, it's improving as the drugs leave her system and her nipples are stimulated with her ds's suck.

I am the LAST person to encourage supplementing, and I know that Lisa doesn't want any formula in her son's body. She is not naive, she has been here since before she was TTC. I trust her judgement.
Lauren


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Lisa_Lynn_
*
AnnMarie, I really feel that supplementing was neccisary in my case. At 3 days old, ds wasn't having enough wet/dirty diapers, he was horribly upset all the time from little to eat, had lost 13% of his body weight, and had jaundace almost bad enough to be admitted in for treatment.

How long did it take for your milk to come in with your last? And how did you manage until it did? Neither I, nor the baby slept for a few days because he was SO hungry he just nursed and nursed, screaming every 10 minutes or so.

I'm just trying to do my best to get my milk to come in while not starving my son or having him end up in the hospital because the jaudace won't go away....







I *HATE* that I'm feeding him something besides my milk...*
How many wet diapers were you getting a day? I don't remember exactly how many days, but I know it was around a week till my milk was going strong. Both my son's were having dark colored urine, and I was worrying about dehydration. They were fine though. They did lose weight, but they added it quickly once my milk was in. I didn't supplement at all, I just nursed as often as possible. They were fussy, but I knew if I started giving bottles it would be over because then I would never make enough milk. That's how it works.... supply and demand. If you are supplementing then he's not nursing as much as he should be and you won't make enough milk........ that's how it was for me anyway.

I think you are doing the best you can and I think it will all work out fine.







I would stop supplementing as soon as your milk comes in though. Remember, it will take a few days to get your supply up to where it should be after supplementing, but you can do it. Don't sweat using the formula. You can't change it and you are only looking out for him. You are doing fine.


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## mamahammer (Jul 30, 2003)

: AnnMarie - It is my understanding from what she has wriiten, that Lisa is not using a bottle to supplement, but is using an SNS. If I'm not mistaken, that allows her DS to get the nutrition and stimulate her breasts. I would think this would be exactly what the SNS was created for.







:


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

He had 2 wet dipes on day 3. Day 4 he didn't have any wet dipes until we started the supplement, so I can't say what is from what....

And oh no, no bottles for him! Like Lauren said I'm using an SNS, and ds is nursing as much, or more than the nurses "wanted" him to in the hospital (I had to write down when he nursed)... he's on the breast for about an hour every 2-3 hours, sometimes more for comfort. I do limit how much formula I give him at once, so he nurses for awhile before he gets sleepy and pops off.

Thank you for the trust Lauren! Oooh and I think Dh is ok with me using your milk (and thank you so much for offering it!)!







I guess his concern was if it was ok for a babe to get milk from someone other than his/her mom... he came home for lunch and said "well when we drink milk, we don't drink from some *specific* cow..." Ok, ok, we all know that breastmilk and cow's milk is like comparing apples and oranges, but if that thinking makes him ok with it, I'm not gonna argue with him! :LOL We're going to talk some more tonight, but I think he's gonna be alright with it!

And oh yes the minute my milk comes in I'm OFF the supplements! I'm ok with nursing round the clock to get my supply to where it needs to be


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Cool! If you defrost it and swirl it and the fatty part won't mix in well, toss it, I am drinking mother's milk and pumping :LOL and will stop by in the morning with fresh milk for you.








Lauren


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mamahammer_
*







: AnnMarie - It is my understanding from what she has wriiten, that Lisa is not using a bottle to supplement, but is using an SNS. If I'm not mistaken, that allows her DS to get the nutrition and stimulate her breasts. I would think this would be exactly what the SNS was created for.







:*
When I mentioned bottles I was talking about my own experience. But about the SNS, they are great, but still, formula takes longer to digest than breastmilk so there could still be a supply problem in the beginning. Not to worry though because it doesn't take long to get it where it should be. I know you'll do fine. You are VERY dedicated.

:LOL On the cow comment. I think it's wonderful that someone offered you their milk.


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

Oh, it sounds like you're doing everything right.

I was in exactly the same boat. Emergency c-section, spinal headache, huge amounts of caffeine (to combat headache), spinal blood patch, crying baby and no milk. It was horrendous. I was so worried that after not being able to have a natural birth I also wouldn't be able to nurse my babe.

DD lost more than 10% of her weight and she only started at 6lbs 13 oz. I was sent home with a prescription for domperidone and a breast pump. I filled the prescription, but never took any. I just kept nursing and nursing. My nipples bore the brunt..ending up cracked and bleeding because dd sucked so hard and nothing came out. I tried to pump but only got very, very small amounts.

Sound bad. It was. But, here's the best part. The milk eventually came in and dd is now 8 months old, 19 lbs and nursing like crazy.

I don't know exactly how long it took to get a good milk supply, because I've never felt a letdown and my breasts rarely leaked. I was always concerned I didn't have enough milk, but I just persisted. I weighed dd every week and watched her dipes. Within 2 weeks she was gaining and having enough wet dipes.

My advice is to supplement the least amount possible. At the beginning, your babe doesn't need to eat very much and even if you can't pump and don't feel a letdown, you may still be producing enough milk.

It's really scary to think your baby might be hungry, but try to trust your body and let nature take its course. It sounds like you're doing great and not supplementing too much, but any supplemental milk the baby gets means he will not try to get it from you. As everyone says, it's all about supply matching demand.

Please PM me if you want any more support. I've been there and my story has happy ending. I'm sure yours will too.


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

Oh, it sounds like you're doing everything right.

I was in exactly the same boat. Emergency c-section, spinal headache, huge amounts of caffeine (to combat headache), spinal blood patch, crying baby and no milk. It was horrendous. I was so worried that after not being able to have a natural birth I also wouldn't be able to nurse my babe.

DD lost more than 10% of her weight and she only started at 6lbs 13 oz. I was sent home with a prescription for domperidone and a breast pump. I filled the prescription, but never took any. I just kept nursing and nursing. My nipples bore the brunt..ending up cracked and bleeding because dd sucked so hard and nothing came out. I tried to pump but only got very, very small amounts.

Sound bad. It was. But, here's the best part. The milk eventually came in and dd is now 8 months old, 19 lbs and nursing like crazy.

I don't know exactly how long it took to get a good milk supply, because I've never felt a letdown and my breasts rarely leaked. I was always concerned I didn't have enough milk, but I just persisted. I weighed dd every week and watched her dipes. Within 2 weeks she was gaining and having enough wet dipes.

My advice is to supplement the least amount possible. At the beginning, your babe doesn't need to eat very much and even if you can't pump and don't feel a letdown, you may still be producing enough milk.

It's really scary to think your baby might be hungry, but try to trust your body and let nature take its course. It sounds like you're doing great and not supplementing too much, but any supplemental milk the baby gets means he will not try to get it from you. As everyone says, it's all about supply matching demand.

Please PM me if you want any more support. I've been there and my story has happy ending. I'm sure yours will too.


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## seraph (Sep 11, 2002)

Go Lisa! I had a pitocin induced birth and that plus Kaia having tongue tie means my milk didn't fully come in until day 22. We supplemented with banked breast milk and then with formula when banked milk got too expensive ($384 a gallon, because $3 an ounce doesn't seem to express the magnitude of this expense) with an SNS and then later with a syringe/feeding tube set up. The feeding tube was easier because it was stiffer than the SNS and I could slide it in the corner of her mouth while she was nursing without unlatching her or making her do more work. We helped a bit with syringe pressure, but mostly she did the sucking to get it out of the syringe. I also drank mothers milk tea and took fenugreek, and then at 14 days started taking domperidone when I still wasn't making enough milk. My milk came in fully at 22 days and we tapered down on the supplementing. You are so lucky to have another mama willing to give you breastmilk to supplement with.







I have faith that it will all work out! Soon this will be but a distant memory.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Wow Saraph thank you *so* much for sharing that. Every day that passes I keep thinking "did anyone say they/someone they knew had their milk come in *this* late?" and you give me some faith!

And now... I will not cry... I will not cry... I will not cry...

My MIL came over today (she's being great, bringing food, doing dishes, folding laundry, ect). She saw the bottle I had pumped into and offered to take it into the kitchen. So just now I went looking in the fridge for the milk. Nowhere to be found. But hmmmm here's the clean bottle. And here's the other bottle. In the tub soaking in the sink! She dumped out what I had pumped!





















Ok it was like oh maybe 1/4 of an ounce tops, but she poured out my milk!









And no this wasn't some evil plot of hers... she is having all her church lady friends pray for me, was VERY concerned about me supplementing, I guess she just didn't understand that I would feed Orion with what I pumped too. But still























Lauren thank you for the milk! Ds is chowing down on it! But eatting *so* much more frequently which is nothing but wonderful! I don't have to wake him to feed every 2 hours, he wakes up himself! Thank you thank you thank you!


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Lisa- I am pak right now! I will call in a little while and see if I can bring over my milk. I am SO SO SO sorry about your MIL



































I asked my friend from LLL to pump too, I told her that fresh was best, since he is a nb, but you have dibs on her freezer too. I can vouch for her, but if you are uncomfortable since you don't know her, I understand that too. The thought of a nb chowing down on my milk might help with my letdown:LOL so I will keep at the pump. I also got you fenugreek tabs to trade for the drops.








Lauren


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Awww thank you Lauren! I'll talk to Matt about it and get back atcha... the frozen milk you gave me was good too, it all came back together when I swirled it, but I went thru the fresh from yesterday and today first









And thank you for the tabs, I've been having the drops in just a little water since it tastes funky to me :LOL

And I'll be home for awhile, I know we need to run out when Dh gets home, but that'll be around 6:30pm... and I've got enough from the frozen to last the evening (and a little more I'm sure) if we can't make our schedules work out for today.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Cool!

Kiss that baby for me.
L
pak


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## Corriander (Nov 19, 2001)

Hi Lisa,

Maybe you know this already... When using the SNS be sure that the container that holds the formula is at the same level as your baby's mouth or lower. If it is higher then gravity brings the milk down through the tube and the baby doesn't really have to work at it, and is thus not stimulating your breasts as much as he could.

Good luck!


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## laurata (Feb 6, 2002)

Lisa, I'm glad to hear things are going better.

I've heard that oatmeal can be helpful to get a good milk supply going, might be worth a try!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

NAK

Hmmm the IBCLC said I need to keep it elevated, because its gravity, not suck controlled. It's just a tiny drop every few seconds or so. I do stop the flow if he isn't activley sucking, so he doesn't figure out that it'll drip w/o him working.

ETA: Oatmeal is what I'm having for breakfast every day


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## laurata (Feb 6, 2002)

Lisa, I know you don't know me in real life, but I'm in the East Bay too, and I would be happy to pump for you and give you my milk. Let me know if you are interested.


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## seraph (Sep 11, 2002)

Lisa, I cried every day until Kaia was a month old. I felt so terrible! But after my milk finally came in and I got my supply going, we nursed just fine and are still going strong! No supplementing! She loves her mooka and nurses all the time.
I never got much from the pump even after my milk came in, but Kaia could always get milk even when I could only pump some drops. I think the baby is MUCH better at getting out the milk than the pump is.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Laura- you know Lisa IRL, she was at the MDC Santa Cruz Gathering. She was pg then and almost due!
Lauren


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## bfbabygirl (Sep 17, 2003)

seraph is right - the pump is way less effective for milk expression than your baby being at the breast. I'd try to breastfeed not pump so much.

I don't know if the doctors gave you the risks for drugs like mag sulfate but you should be aware of the effects for you and baby. For example, mag sulfate makes newborns VERY sleepy after birth and that can mess up nursing something awful. You probably already know that anyone in obstetrics can confirm that everything given to you (except Cytotec) passed through the placenta to your baby.

Even studies way back in '61 showed that Nubain given in labor led to 'disorganized behavior' in the newborn and subsequent difficulty in breastfeeding and of course, newborn weight loss.

The Pitocin is thought to disrupt milk production. Normal oxytocin production is NOTHING like the continous dosage of Pit and therefore, the normal course of oxytocin in the breastfeeding stimulus is dramatically altered. Your body could be recovering from the violence of the Pit and not responding well to the rise and fall of oxytocin in your body (which would stimulate milk production).

YOu already know the dismal stats for moms supplementing with formula prior to newborns being a month old - hopefully this will not include you and your baby! But it is critical to be off formula asap.

Sorry this is a long post. It might be worthwhile if you have not been briefed on the effects of the drugs you and your baby received, to review those with the lactation consultant and understand how long those effects are expected to hinder your milk production and your baby's adequate nursing response (as well as overall newborn behaviors like drowsiness, etc.)


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## laurata (Feb 6, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by veganmamma_
*Laura- you know Lisa IRL, she was at the MDC Santa Cruz Gathering. She was pg then and almost due!
Lauren*
Of course! I had forgotten.







:LOL


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:

I don't know if the doctors gave you the risks for drugs like mag sulfate but you should be aware of the effects for you and baby. For example, mag sulfate makes newborns VERY sleepy after birth and that can mess up nursing something awful. You probably already know that anyone in obstetrics can confirm that everything given to you (except Cytotec) passed through the placenta to your baby.
I'm not sure why you posted this here. She can't go back in time and refuse the drugs, and you don't really know what her situation was. Having read her birth story and talked to her, I know that she had +3 protein in her urine. Do I personally think that her OB went over the top? I do think that, yes.

Are you trying to make her feel even worse for losing her homebirth? I can attest that she planned it since before I'd ever met her and before she was even TTC. Lisa is a very educated person in these matters, she doesn't need you to school her on the effects of labor augmenting drugs.

Quote:

I'd try to breastfeed not pump so much.
Did she say how much she was pumping? Or even that she was using it as a gauge to see how much milk she had?

Quote:

YOu already know the dismal stats for moms supplementing with formula prior to newborns being a month old - hopefully this will not include you and your baby! But it is critical to be off formula asap.
I think that's already been established

Quote:

It might be worthwhile if you have not been briefed on the effects of the drugs you and your baby received, to review those with the lactation consultant and understand how long those effects are expected to hinder your milk production and your baby's adequate nursing response (as well as overall newborn behaviors like drowsiness, etc.)
Okay, excuse me- HOW in GOD'S name is this supportive?? You are basically saying to her that she should go talk to a LC to discuss how she is going to continue to have a hard time? (or at least IYO) How is that productive?

I think your post was way out of line, Lisa does not need anyone trying to make her feel worse about the drugs used to augment her labor. She is grieving the loss of a natural birth and she doesn't need you to drive it home. I can't believe that you would post something like that to her thread. If you don't have anything nice and constructive to say, then don't say it. Personally, I think you should go back and edit your post to say something like, "I hope things are getting better.







"

It would be nice if you could do it soon, before she gets online and sees it!
Lauren


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## liam's mom (Jun 18, 2003)

Lisa, I just wanted to let you know that I had plans for a natural birth that went down the toilet, I felt HORRIBLE, a failure, all that stuff. I had a c-section and ds ended up in the NICU for 5 days. I was so stressed and upset that it took nearly a week for my milk to fully come in (5-6 days). He was on an IV in the NICU for 2 1/2 days, then when it was determined that he was stable they were able to give him bottles of formula when I couldn't be there, and I breastfed him using an SNS as much as I could. I also pumped like a FIEND--not for milk expression so much as stimulation.

Anyway, I was a total wreck when he was born. But I wanted to give you a story with a happy ending







--my milk did come in, and ds is a GREAT nurser!! I'm pretty sure using the SNS at the hospital had a lot to do with that. I think you're doing fantastic, and I have absolute faith that any day you're going to be engorged with lots of mama's milk! Keep eating that oatmeal!!! I'll be thinking of you.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thank you again Sereph! I'm trying to keep my spirts up about everything, but man its hard! Just talking to the LC when I went in on day 3 about how hungry Orion was and how my milk hadn't come in made me want to cry. That morning Dh was holding the baby while I bawled in the tub. Being able to breastfeed has an importance to me that is beyond just the normal reasons of why a mother should breastfeed a child. Its like I want to validate that my body can do *something* right, and I can at least be able to follow my own choices in how I feed my child.

Thank you for the offer Laura, Dh and I will think about it







And its ok, I didn't realize I had met you at the picnic until Lauren said so either :LOL

bfbabygirl, I was told what the drugs would do to me *during* labor, but they never went into any effects it would have on the baby. And he has never been too sleepy to nurse from the drugs (thank goodness, it would have only made a bad situation worse), he just gets full from formula for much longer than breastmilk. Now that isn't such a problem since Lauren is being so wonderful and pumping for us. I didn't *want* the drugs, I did everything I could to avoid them, I even consulted with my midwives before I let them induce me. But when you're faced with doctors telling you that you're going to have seizures or possibly a stroke, its terribly hard to say 'no', especially when I didn't have the time or resources at hand to do research before making a decision about how much of a chance I had for a seizure/stroke to occur. But I made a choice during my labor to allow the mag sulfate and pitocin because of the seriousness of the situation (or at least the seriousness of the situation as it was presented to me at the time).

I have spoken to the LC about the medications and how they are affecting me (because as I said, it does not seem to me that ds has been affected by them. He nurses very well, and now that his feedings are breastmilk, wakes frequently to nurse) and she told me what I said earlier. That on the outside it could take 10-12 days for my milk to come in, and that its not likely to come in after that (and boy as I come closer to that 'deadline' it worries me more and more.. 8 days today... not of course like its set in stone that it wouldn't come after that, but just remembering what she said)...

Quote:

YOu already know the dismal stats for moms supplementing with formula prior to newborns being a month old - hopefully this will not include you and your baby! But it is critical to be off formula asap.
That comment was not very helpful. And I wonder if the "stats" are seperating moms who just bottle feed their babies for convience/to let dads feed/ect from moms who are using SNS or other systems and doing everything under their power to breastfeed?
I KNOW that the formula isn't 'helping' any. But I also KNOW my son **HAS** to have food. A newborn can survive on just colostrum for about a week (or at least I've read that in a few places...). Its 8 days now. He was horribly hungry, horribly upset, and nursing so much I was honest to god delirious for no more than 15 minutes of sleep at a time by day 3. I can't imagine how things would be now at day 8 if I wasn't supplementing! Trust me, the thing I would most LOVE to do is walk the damn can of formula down to the dumpster and POUR it OUT! I can't begin to express how HORRIBLY upset I am that I've had to feed him formula. I'm so happy now that he can get some breastmilk, but still wish that I could provide it for him (the whole want my body to do SOMETHING right thing).

And I've figured out that he's *on the breast* about 9 hours a day. I think that's stimulating me quite a bit. I pump afterwards just to try to get even more stimulation. It is depressing to see just a couple of drops, but I know that it isn't a measure of how much I'm producing.

And thank you Lauren, for the support (& everything else too!). You've been SO wonderful!


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## bfbabygirl (Sep 17, 2003)

Lisa, thank you for the descriptions of your conversations with your lactation consultant, that all makes so much sense and I'm glad you have her helping you through this hard time!

You sound veyr well informed and I applaud your tenacity!

Hope things go better soon (don't know how to access the emoticon I was told to put here, sorry).

I'm sure everything will be great very soon! And I'm so happy for you that you have such a wonderful MIL to help out at home, with laundry and has all her friends pulling for you. Great to have that support.

You can do it!


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## MistyD (Jan 14, 2003)

Lisa, pardon the personal question but how much are you bleeding? Are there any clots? I've read that retained pieces of placenta can keep you from producing milk at the 'normal' rate. If you have any reason to think that might be the case, call your OB and insist on an ultrasound to check.

Also, I am beyond pissed that an LC told you that if your milk didn't come in by 10-12 days it wouldn't at all!!! Every woman is different, if your body needs longer to get going then that is okay, I'm positive that it will all come together soon. Please try not to think of it as a deadline, just a journey that you and Orion are on together.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Misty, its about 'heavy period' right now. I only had one largish clot like 4 days PP (maybe half a golf ball sized) and now I do have little clots in the bottom of the toliet after I use the restroom. The LC said the same thing about retained placenta... but she said I'd know it, I'd feel like crap and have lots of cramping and such. Is that true? This is my first babe, so I'm not sure what stage my bleeding should be at here.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Dear Lisa_Lynn,

I've been following this thread for a bit now and have been dropping in daily so check and see if 'today' is 'the day'. (That being when your milk comes in.)

I've been holding off posting anything, as this is a very personal struggle but, I feel compelled to offer you my support. Let me just tell you that you are AWESOME!







Little Orion is one blessed babe! You must have a deep well of inner strength girl!

Rest assured, you are doing EVERYTHING in your power to give your little love his Mama's milk, and I just KNOW it won't be in vain! Formula is a great tool IF it is needed, and in your case, it was! Don't beat yourself up over that one! As parent's we can only do what we feel in our hearts is best for our babes.

I can only hope that this worry will soon subside for you and your DH so you can get on with enjoying your new babe. Soak up every second; it goes by so quick.

"Cleaning and scrubbing can wait til tomorrow,
for babies grow up, we've learned to our sorrow
So quiet down cob webs, dust go to sleep
I'm rocking my baby and babies don't keep"

~unknown


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## MistyD (Jan 14, 2003)

Lisa, I don't know. Personally, I'd probably call my OB and ask for an ultrasound just to check ( and I'm typically very anti-u/s). I know that would be a hassle though....it's up to you.

Another thought, have you discussed taking a prescription for making more milk? I realize that your milk isn't in yet, but I thought, maybe.... Or an herbal galactalouge? I know several moms who use this one, Nursing Mothers Blend http://www.kerrysherbals.com/tinctures.shtml .

Have you called LLL? Perhaps a leader could offer more advice.

I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers. Just get through one hour at a time.


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## laurata (Feb 6, 2002)

Lisa, I just wanted to say... YOUR MILK IS GOING TO COME IN! I am lighting a candle and thinking positive thoughts for you.







But I also wanted to let you know that I know two women in SF who extended nursed with SNS their whole nursing career. It's a lot more work, but the benefits of nursing still exist, even if much of the nutrition comes from formula. I don't want to get you down or anything, because YOUR MILK IS GOING TO COME IN!







Let me know if you want me to pass your situation on to my friends so I can hook you up.

Are you getting enough rest? I hope you aren't overdoing it, but if you are, strip your shirt off, climb in bed, and cuddle that babe of yours a while. {{{hugs}}}


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:

bfbabygirl, I was told what the drugs would do to me *during* labor, but they never went into any effects it would have on the baby. And he has never been too sleepy to nurse from the drugs (thank goodness, it would have only made a bad situation worse), he just gets full from formula for much longer than breastmilk. Now that isn't such a problem since Lauren is being so wonderful and pumping for us. I didn't *want* the drugs, I did everything I could to avoid them, I even consulted with my midwives before I let them induce me. But when you're faced with doctors telling you that you're going to have seizures or possibly a stroke, its terribly hard to say 'no', especially when I didn't have the time or resources at hand to do research before making a decision about how much of a chance I had for a seizure/stroke to occur. But I made a choice during my labor to allow the mag sulfate and pitocin because of the seriousness of the situation (or at least the seriousness of the situation as it was presented to me at the time).
Lisa- you don't need to justify anything to us. I think anyone with any compassion understands your situation.

Quote:

Hope things go better soon (don't know how to access the emoticon I was told to put here, sorry).
it's a colon ":" and then the word "hug" with no caps and not spaces. And I"m sure we can all appreciate the gesture.
Lauren


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## Trishy (Oct 15, 2002)

Lisa i just wanted to jump in and hopefully offer a little support. I have been watching this thread and praying every day that your milk will come in. This morning I was talking to another MDC mama and telling her how Lauren was giving you her milk and I was just overcome with emotion. I'm so glad that you have a wonderful person like her so close to you to help out. Your milk will come in.


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## bfbabygirl (Sep 17, 2003)




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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

veganmama
I just wanted to add that you too are AWESOME!







What an amazing gift to give.









There just aren't any words. You're beautiful!


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## gurumama (Oct 6, 2002)

Lisa,

I wrote a long reply here and then they shut down the boards and I lost the whole thing! I'll recap:

1. I successfully nursed and supplemented with both my boys, without compromising my milk supply. *IF* you wind up with low supply, you *CAN* successfully use formula/donated milk throughout the entire time your baby needs it while breastfeeding as well. In my case, with both sons, I breastfed first then supplemented. With ds2 I used an SNS (what a pain! but worth it--get a BUNCH of them if you can afford it so that you always have a clean one on hand...) and we always gave him any pumped breastmilk first, then formula. I just wanted to chime in on a positive note that if, worst case, you end up needing to supplement long-term, you CAN do it without automatically drying up.

2. Adoptive mothers are able to lactate, and you ARE getting some milk now--1/4 an ounce at a pumping is great, even if your MIL accidentally threw it out! Argh! That's liquid gold! Anyhow, you ARE getting milk, so your milk *IS* coming in--just not in the more traditional way. Not every mother deals with leaking and engorgement and obvious letdowns. We're all built differently, so remember that your milk IS coming in already. Therefore now the focus is on how much you're producing, not whether you'll produce, because you're doin' it, girlfriend!

Rest, eat that oatmeal, and consider ordering Domperidone (Motillium) for increased milk supply. It's safe, though not available in the US anymore (FDA red tape). It's approved in Canada, New Zealand, and Australia. I use it and I've noticed a clean increase in milk supply. It costs me $80, shipped, for 600 tablets, a 75-80 day supply. Many women just need one "round" of 6-10 weeks of this, and then find their milk supply is permanently up. You can order it here:

http://www.globaldrug.tv/search.asp?...ds=domperidone

PM me if you have questions.

Good luck to you!

Mel


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## bfbabygirl (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by veganmamma_
Are you trying to make her feel even worse for losing her homebirth?[/B]
No. Not at all. Sorry you took it to mean that and spoke for Lisa accordingly.









Quote:

_Originally posted by veganmamma_
Did she say how much she was pumping? [/B]
Yes.

Quote:

_Originally posted by veganmamma_
You are basically saying to her that she should go talk to a LC to discuss how she is going to continue to have a hard time? (or at least IYO) How is that productive?
No, I'm not 'basically saying' that, sorry IYO you feel that I am. If one has more of a prognosis for the effects of these drugs (like the narcotics and their disruption to the newborn's nursing) then a more realistic timetable can be established. If one knows that typically, the effects of Nubain, epidural and pitocin (individually and collectively) delay milk production by 5 days, Lisa can expect to be in a 'normal' range for what she received in labor. Not expecting that milk production timetable will look anything like after a natural labor and birth. Comparing milk production onset to a non-drugged labor and birth will only look discouraging, as the natural labor and birth will usually have milk production onset at 3-5 days postpartum. Drugged labor and birth should be treated as a unique timetable, not compared with natural.

What looks to be delayed milk production onset may actually be well within the normal range for these drugs used in labor and birth. Expectations can be adjusted accordingly and less worry for all involved as well as use of supplementary feeding devices and foods in the waiting period. I still agree with seraph on the less effective method of milk expression via pumping (what is it, like 40% of milk is expressed via pumping?) It can be incredibly discouraging to pump only one quarter of an ounce in one session or multiple sessions. And the illusion is that is what baby is getting at breast, sometimes. Babies are much more efficient at milk expression but if they are recovering from narcotics or do not have the gut properly prepared for milk due to non colostrum feeding sources, then their sucking can be compromised, too.








I'm sure it will all be great very soon for Lisa! Breastfeeding is sometimes as simple as everyone likes to quote from various experts but the effects of drugs on the newborn are not adequately accounted for or disclosed for many, many moms. The scrambling post partum to 'fix' breastfeeding problems isn't something I wish upon any new mom. And often, the advice from LLL, lactation consultants, et al comes from a natural birth paradigm so the problems only continue.


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## mama2bababoo (Aug 22, 2003)

Hi Lisa! I'm veganmamma's friend and I've been pumping away ever since I talked to her. In fact I'm dropping off milk to her today and hoping it gets to you in time because it's fresh from yesturday and today. Almost five ounces from this morning and I'm not sure how much from yesturday. I am thinking and praying for you all the time. Keep up the good work with the SNS. My ds has a cleft palate and didn't nurse very well for a long time. I used SNS with him for a few months off and on because when ds sucked it was like sucking through a straw with a hole in. That's what LC told me anyway. I'm admiring you and sending you well wishes because I know first hand how difficult using that little device can be. I always attached the container holding the milk above my sons mouth because that's what LC told me to do. I think that's what you said you are doing. I also switched it off when he didn't actively suck. I didn't believe when LC's told me that ds was getting more milk out from me than when I pumped, but I DO believe that now after all these months. It's hard to believe in yourself but try to keep your spirits up and I will continue to pump for you in the meantime. If you don't want to use my milk because you don't know me I will understand. Just let veganmamma know and I will continue to pump until I hear from her.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Lisa Lynn, I've been checking in on you too, keeping all my fingers crossed that you would be gushing fountains of milk by now! I think you've gotten awesome advice and support so far (not to mention all that wonderful mama's milk - boy, I wish I had had lactating mama friends to give us their milk when I had huge nursing problems to start out with!)

We are yet another story of horrible problems at the beginning, and going on to develop a wonderful nursing relationship (still going strong at 13 months!) It can take time. In my case, it was about 3 months before I got Evan to the breast exclusively. Probably the lowest night of my life was the one where I stood in Giant's formula aisle at midnight, crying, about a week post-partum, trying to pick a formula. Blech. It was hard, but it kept getting better from there.

I second the domperidone recommendation. I have some I can send you to get you started if you decide to go that route, as it can take a week or two to order it from New Zealand. If you're interested, PM me your address and I'll mail you a box.

Are you taking any galactogogues? Mother's Milk Tea is OK, but it doesn't get the milk flowing like taking fenugreek, blessed thistle, and even alfalfa and nettles in capsules. I took 3-4 capsules of each 3 times a day. Motherlove also makes great herbal tinctures if you can't deal with swallowing 48 pills a day.

Also, have you considered getting your thyroid levels checked? I know of at least one mom on the boards who had undiagnosed low thyroid and her milk never came in. Hypothyroidism is common post-partum even if you've never had thyroid issues before. I think it would be well worth getting a blood draw to check for this just in case.

Sending you warm, milky thoughts!


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## mamaley (Mar 18, 2002)

Lisa, I'm so sorry that you're going through this--i echo what others have said, I have so much admiration for everything you're doing, you are trying so hard. And it will come in!









And also, it's amazing reading this thread, and seeing all the people in your area who are offering their milk--wow. What amazing support.

Keep up the good work, mama. Lots of luck and love to you, fellow sept/oct mama.


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## bananasmom (Aug 2, 2002)

*Lisa* - I hope you are doing well!

~~~

I don't want to clog up Lisa's thread with another topic... but I was wondering if some of you could look at another thread. A couple of you mentioned pitocin effecting milk coming in, and I had a question:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...threadid=88645

TIA!


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## seraph (Sep 11, 2002)

Hi Lisa, I am still thinking good milky thoughts for you. I hope you and Orion and your DH are doing well.
I remember very clearly when Kaia was two weeks old, I was crying, she was crying, and I suddenly had this moment of clarity. In another month, this will all be a distant memory, was my thought. And you know, it was.









Another thing I remembered that seemed to help my milk supply was to eat lots of protein. Do you have family and friends bringing you meals? We had friends bring us meals for the first 3 weeks after Kaia was born and it was wonderful not to have to think about it.

You know, she's seven months old and I still eat oatmeal for breakfast every day. Funny how things like that become a habit.

Much love to you and Orion. I think that pretty soon for you this will all be a distant memory too. :bf


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## KKmama (Dec 6, 2001)

Just found this thread...

I want to send my encouragement, too! You can do it!

I had a difficult beginning, similar to yours, and we got through it. Ds is still nursing at 27 months (and he's huge and healthy). When my milk came it, it was a relief.

I used to live in the East Bay, too, and I don't know where exactly you're at... I'm sure you're in the care of an excellent LC, but if you can make it to a LLL meeting, try. I was a member of the Berkeley/Albany group. Just being in a room full of women who have been there, are supportive, and are nursing *helps*.

What a great mama you are to do this for your son.

Kristine


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thank you everyone! I certainly hope this is all a memory soon... I'm trying really hard to not get frustrated, but its really difficult... and doing research into domperidone versus reglan, I'm so annoyed that domperidone isn't available in the USA! Reglan isn't good to use if you have depression issues, and well I have a mild case o' the baby blues (I think most of that is because of this issue as well as the loss of my homebirth) and I'd hate to be taking a med that could make that *worse*. So I suppose its off to spend a lotta money for some domperidone online if I want to go that way... (if things don't seem to happen soon I will)

Mel was it the site you sent me that had the prices you purchased the domperidone from? When I looked there, $80 would only get me 400 tabs and my only other choice is to spend $120 for 1200 tabs (without shipping).

mama2bababoo thank you for the milk (I assume it was yours that Lauren dropped off with her's today or man oh man did she pump a LOT! :LOL )

laurata it would be great if you would pass on my info to your friends! Even if this is temporary (goodness I hope so) it would be SO helpful to get tips on how to use this darn SNS a little more easily, and how to avoid the lovely tape burn I've got going on my poor boobies! And I have no idea exactly how much milk Orion will go through, but I'll certainly take you up on your offer if its not too inconvient for you.









Thank you again for everything, everyone! Reading your messages, and getting all this help really helps me keep it together. Thank you so much!

ETA: I just *have* to share this photo with everyone who's been soooo wonderful here. It's Orion nursing and he's just Mr.Blissed-Out (you can just *barely* see the tube at the top there, but not really)

http://www.mattandlisahart.com/day%208%20001.jpg


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Yes, mama2bababoo has 3 bags in that stash- her milk is creamy! I am impressed! :LOL

I love that pic Lisa. Very sweet.









SOrry I didn't get to see you tonight, dd was asleep in the car.

















Lauren


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Tis ok Lauren thank you for making so many runs over here to drop off the milk! I ran out today with Orion for the first time along and managed it pretty well (NIP'ed in Safeway for 20 minutes :LOL) so I'm sure I could run over to your MIL's if you were there to pick milk up some of these times...

Oh so I had to come and share my bit o' good news







I just pumped like a 1/2 ounce (that's both my breasts together there)! Woo!







The 1/4 ounce I was talking about earlier was from 3-5 nursing sessions so this is like WOW to me.

I'm wondering if anyone has had their milk come in so slowly, or had low supply issues and never got the 'full breast' sensation? I mean I'm still hoping for big full lots o' milk boobies, but I wonder...


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

YAY!! That is great Lisa- the first time I broke out the pump for you guys I *only* got 1/2 oz! I think you are on the way to a great milk supply.

You most certainly do not need to come over. You need to stay with your babe- at home out and about, whatever, but not running any unnecessary errands. We are at YOUR service :LOL

I have just found out (thanks feebeeglee!)that 30g of soy can increase your milk about 30%- explaining my oversupply problems in the beginning- I know, doesn't seem like a problem to you right now. Anyway, I will bring you some yummy soy, vegan faire tomorrow. Sleep well, make lots of milkies and I can't wait to give you a great big hug in the morning!
Lauren


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## bfbabygirl (Sep 17, 2003)

Lauren, do you have the references for soy as a supply increaser? Everything I've read, lists soy products as a _reducer_ of supply (due to phytoestrogenic compounds). Any estrogens can have a reducing effect for some moms, whether it's the pill or soy products. I wouldn't want Lisa to struggle more with milk production so I want to make sure the soy reference is truly based in fact. If Lisa has an undiagnosed thyroid problem and that is the cause of low supply/delayed milk production, lots of soy products will exacerbate a hypothyroid condition.

Lisa, there is a thread about low supply and herbs here, if you care to look:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...0&pagenumber=3

Hilary recommends limiting newborn feedings but that doesn't apply of course!

Glad to hear about the pumping sessions!










edited for spelling!


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## mamacrab (Sep 2, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Lisa_Lynn_
*I'm wondering if anyone has had their milk come in so slowly, or had low supply issues and never got the 'full breast' sensation? I mean I'm still hoping for big full lots o' milk boobies, but I wonder...*
Lisa, I know that some women *do* have their milk come in slowly. Also, the reason extreme postpartum engorgement is so common is due to our cultural practices (mother/baby separation in the hospital, limiting length of feedings, limiting # of feedings). Its not necessarily a normal part of breastfeeding. From what I've read in this thread Orion is spending amazing amounts of time at the breast (and I mean that is a very positive way!) so I wouldn't be surprised if you never felt engorgement, even after your milk comes in.

And, btw, CONGRATULATIONS! ANd thanks for posting all the beautiful pics.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Lisa - I've been watching this thread as well, and I just wanted to add my support and







. I've had tears in my eyes reading about your persistence and the support of all these wonderful mothering mamas.

Little Orion is SUCH a lucky guy!


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## bananasmom (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:

I'm wondering if anyone has had their milk come in so slowly, or had low supply issues and never got the 'full breast' sensation? I mean I'm still hoping for big full lots o' milk boobies, but I wonder...
My breasts never changed at all in pregnancy; I never leaked, couldn't express colostrum, expressed 2 drops of milk days 4-7, never experienced let down, no breast changes at all postpartem, and never any fullness whatsoever. Dd had no dirty diapers in 7 days and was seriously dehydrated twice (even though I supplemented with a dropper).

I did not have the resources that you have, I had an IBCLC LC who wasn't good. You have so much more going for you, and I hope that everything works out for you.

I do have a friend, who had similar problems and had to supplement for a long time. At 8 weeks, she suddenly got engorged, and they can't explain why it took so long for her to get a strong supply. I *think* she gave up formula shortly thereafter, but I think she weaned around 10-11 months.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Absolutely gorgeous picture Lisa!

You have one precious little man there.


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

I just wanted to encourage you too. I had major supply problems with both of my births. With our first child I was frantic about it--because he was also dropping weight and becoming dehydrated. I finally supplemented on day 10--with a bottle and formula no less! The lactation consultant told me that I just "put the nail in my coffin of my nursing my son"..........I went on to have a very successful nursing relationship (one of the very best parts of my life so far!) with him for 2 YEARS!! I supplemented him with a bottle and formula for the first 6-8 weeks (hard for me to remember now), and then ditched the bottles all together after that--by the time he was 9 months old he would no longer even take a bottle.

With my second child I knew the drill so I did exactly the same thing (temporary supplement of bottle and formula with tons of regular nursing thrown in there--I mean I nursed all the time!) and we went on to nurse for 3 years.

I had the lactation consultant at Kaiser tell me "you might as well just stop nursing now, because the supplementing will kill your supply in a matter of days". That is obviously NOT true.

As my kids got to be toddlers I often dropped to one nursing a day (around the 2 year old mark) and still was making milk while they had a full diet of *supplemented* foods. I pretty much could have gone on to this day if I had wanted. Breast feeding is much more flexible than people give it credit for.

Good luck to you and hang in there. It sounds like you have a wonderful friend to help you.

Hugs,
Lisa


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Ok I need some more help from anyone who can... My MIL just called, very concerned that I'm using other women's milk because of the chance of the baby contracting diseases (mainly HIV)... Lauren, I trust you of course, but I have no idea what I should tell her. Any help??


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## mischievium (Feb 9, 2003)

First, what a beautiful baby boy you have.

Second, I too have been checking in on this thread and praying for you-- more like lobbying with God on your behalf







. I just wanted you to know you have another person out there pulling for you.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Lisa Lynn,

Yes, babe's can get HIV through breastmilk. However, if the women who are donating there milk to you haven't ever engaged in any high-risk activities (i.e. risky sex, needle sharing etc.) or have been tested and are clean, it should be very safe. You probably can get the milk tested as I know they do this when milk is donated to milk banks.

If these women have EVER given blood, they would know if they have HIV or not.

Good luck mama!


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Just thought of something! Where I live, the pre-natal blood testing gamut includes an HIV test unless Mama refuses. IF you test positive, they'd definately let you know and HIV + mama's are advised NOT to BF!


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## bfbabygirl (Sep 17, 2003)

Lisa, I thought that someone would probably ask about the disease controls for the donated milk. Your MIL sounds like one smart lady! It is a very fair question to ask about the donated milk. Milk banks screen for diseases such as HIV. You don't have that control in place, despite the donated milk being a very nice gesture.

Could you tell your mother in law that the donors have established donating rights at a milk bank and were screened for disease control already?

But again it is a very fair, understandable question to ask.


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## sadean (Nov 20, 2001)

There are ways to pasturize breast milk on the stove. I don't have websites or instructions for it, but I have heard talk about on these boards. I think you take it up to boiling, then cool it quickly. It "kills" any pathogens that might be present (and some of the good stuff too, so I don't neccessarily recommend it).

Whether you decide to DO that or not is up to you, but if your MIL THINKS you are doing that (because you tell her you are), than maybe she will get off your back









BTW, I think you are wonderful to be so tenatious and I wish you all the blessings.

I am sending you milky thought







and







s


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## sadean (Nov 20, 2001)

It is also my opinion that this current strategy of using donated milk should be discussed on a "need to know basis" (your spouse, your donor(s), your doctor (maybe), and you IMO). MIL doesn't need to know there is donated milk in the bag, especially given the nature of your relationship (as I perceive it based on prior discussion on the board).

I suggest that once you have given her an explaination/answer (whatever you decide to tell her) to her question, that you not discuss it with her again...it's not really her business.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I didn't plan on telling her, but she was over last night when Lauren dropped some milk off...


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## BowenTherapist (Apr 25, 2002)

just wanted to chime in for support of you








i have been lurking on this thread to see how you and orion were doing. sounds like you are on your way to being a mama milk fountain. 1/2 oz. is great from a pump, just think how much more effective your babe is at getting that milk out









btw, were you able to keep your placenta? i have heard that if you dry it and put it into capsules it is a great for ppd. (but i would check with a knowledgable midwife, nd, or herbalist before you even think about it since who knows if the labor drugs might be in there) do you have access to a good herbalist with a traditional chinese med background? my herbalist made up some tea, gave me something called "women's precios formula" and dandylion root tincture. those were all to help milk come in fast and strong

your doing great!

ps i second what another poster had said about the milk, mamas get tested for communicable diseases and would know if they had one, and would not be donating milk. the think you may have to worry about would be yeast, but that you can just ask about(they probably wouldn't give you milk if they had yeaast issues so i wouldn't worry)


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:

Lauren, do you have the references for soy as a supply increaser? Everything I've read, lists soy products as a reducer of supply (due to phytoestrogenic compounds). Any estrogens can have a reducing effect for some moms, whether it's the pill or soy products. I wouldn't want Lisa to struggle more with milk production so I want to make sure the soy reference is truly based in fact. If Lisa has an undiagnosed thyroid problem and that is the cause of low supply/delayed milk production, lots of soy products will exacerbate a hypothyroid condition.
The reference is Dr. William Sears and his Wife Martha Sears, RN, from the book they co-wrote, The Breastfeeding Book.
Page # 75 of the 2000 edition.

"Studies show that 30 grams of a soy protein supplement a day can produce a 25 percent increase in the volume of a mother's milk"
So we got the exact percentage wrong, a friend on the boards gave it to me last night without the book.

Lisa- I was tested during pg fior HIV and I have always been tested previous to that every 6 months. Not b/c I'm high risk, just because I think it's the responsible thing to do, and very easy. You can tell your MIL that you pasteurize it, or you can actually pasteurize it yourself, though it loses some of the benefits, it still is better than formula, and digests quickly. Also, I do donate blood now that I am past 2 mos post partum, so while I haven't been tested recently, I know they would LMK if there was a reason I couldn't/shouldn't donate.

Also- while I am a sugarholic (!!) I have had no yeast issues in years.









Anyway, I will see you later Lisa, tell Matt I say "hi" and I wish we'd gotten to talk more, but that I'll see you both together sometime soon. And kiss that sweet boy for us too!
Lauren


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## bilbo333 (Aug 13, 2003)

I just read this thread - BTDT and it is so frustrating. My thoughts are with you. Know that at 16 weeks I have so much milk in my freezer I'm considering buying a stand alone for storage! I would be happy to mail you some although I have had yeast problems.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thank you for the info Lauren.







I'll pass it along to MIL.

Oh I just had to share with everyone... I decided to see if I could fill Orion up for a feeding w/o the supplementer, figuring if I pumped a 1/2 ounce then I'm probably making oh an ounce or more. Well anyways I fed him for an hour until he was frustrated at the tail end from not getting milk, and so I yanked out my ounce of milk I had pumped in a few sessions yesterday and put that in the supplementer and he only drank half of that and passed out! So I only had to supplement 1/2 ounce!









Thank you everyone for pulling for me! I'm sorry I haven't responded to everyone personally, but well I'm sure you all understand its a tad bit difficult to type while NAK'ing


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

YAY Lisa!
nak too!
Lauren


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## gurumama (Oct 6, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by bfbabygirl_
*Lauren, do you have the references for soy as a supply increaser? Everything I've read, lists soy products as a reducer of supply (due to phytoestrogenic compounds). Any estrogens can have a reducing effect for some moms, whether it's the pill or soy products. I wouldn't want Lisa to struggle more with milk production so I want to make sure the soy reference is truly based in fact. If Lisa has an undiagnosed thyroid problem and that is the cause of low supply/delayed milk production, lots of soy products will exacerbate a hypothyroid condition.

*
TOO much soy can reduce milk supply for *a mother with hypothyroidism*--it happened to me. It can also really, really mess up your thyroid levels and reduce thyroid activity. For women with normal thyroid function, soy can *increase* milk supply. So it all depends.

Lisa--if you're also dealing with some depression issues, then I strongly recommend a thyroid evaluation ASAP. It's a very simple blood test that your dr can order and get results from within a day or two. It can easily be fixed with hormone replacement which is very, very safe for breastfeeding.

When I go to the website for Domperidone, I find the prices to be $70 for 600 tablets, plus $10 for shipping. Scroll all the way down the page and you'll see the 10 mg tablets, 600 for $70. Are you geting different #s? Here's the line again:

http://www.globaldrug.tv/search.asp?...ds=domperidone

Best of luck!

Mel


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## bananasmom (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:

Lisa--if you're also dealing with some depression issues, then I strongly recommend a thyroid evaluation ASAP. It's a very simple blood test that your dr can order and get results from within a day or two. It can easily be fixed with hormone replacement which is very, very safe for breastfeeding.
ITA. I was seriously hypo and didn't even know it! If your doctor or midwife will do so, see if they'll check your Free T4 and anti-thyroid antibodies as well. TSH (the standard test) doesn't always give the full picture.

BTW, may I give a huge round of applause for *veganmamma* !!!










I wish you lived in my town. Any chance of you being in Pittsburgh in the middle of November?


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## JayGee (Oct 5, 2002)

I'm late to respond here, but I just wanted to share my experience too, in hopes that it will give you some more encouragement







.

I was also given mag sulfate and Pitocin, which negated each other and resulted in a c-section. My milk didn't come in for 4 days and when it did, there wasn't much. My LC said the mag/pit/epi combination wreaks havoc on the milk supply. Like you, I could barely cover the bottom of the pump bottles with a layer of milk. Still, I pumped, and nursed, and supplemented with an SNS and a bottle. I gradually weaned him from the bottle, and then the supplement, and successfully nursed for 15 months. I never was able to produce a ton of milk, but certainly enough to keep my boy happy, healthy and round







.

What helped: Mother's Milk tea, drinking water all day long, and very frequent nursing (sometimes 17 or 18 times a day). My LC was great for boosting my confidence when I was SURE he wasn't getting anything from me. Those before and after nursing weigh-ins helped me see, in black and white, that amount of milk I was actually giving him.

Good luck, and great news about that 1/2 ounce top off!

Kristina


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

i love this thread! lisa, i know orion is going to be a happy breastfed baby, you are doing a great job, i don't know if i could have persevered as long as you have!

& lauren & the other mommies who are donating milk:






































you are all amazing.

ps... my sister is due in dec, they are naming their baby maddox. she is going thru a lot of the MIL stuff that you went thru when you were carrying orion. do you regret naming him that?

I THOUGHT NOT!!























mothers in law,







:


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

I could be in pittsburg, CA in November!!









Lauren


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Lisa, the package in on its way - clean out your PM box!


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Yay Lisa!!!







I knew you could do it!







(I wanted the party icon like we can use in message icons but I guess that's not available so the balloons will have to do. lol)








To moms that supplied or offered to supply milk for Orion.

Isn't this forum great?!?


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

You know, I am so impressed at the out pouring of support. I was driving today and I almost had to pull over b/c I was thinking baout LIsa and how freaked out I would have been in her shoes and thinking of everyone here and all their kind words really made me cry. I love you guys!








Lauren


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thank you Mel, I saw it this time...

Guess that one feeding was a fluke, or I made a lot that 'meal', or he wasn't as hungry cuz all the feedings since he's downed almost an extra 2 ounces... I'm getting SO frustrated! I just want to be done w/ this SNS it makes nursing SUCH a pain in the butt!!!! I have to get up at night and turn on the light and it takes a minute to get the tube in his mouth, which means he's screaming and flailing. ARG! Its day 11 here... and even though I *know* the LC isn't right about the milk not coming in after that, I'm still quite anxious.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Lisa, he might be going thru a growth spurt, too. It is getting better. I will be by to drop off some milkies later on today. Keep your chin up, I have faith in you! (And your chi chis)

Incidentally, does your BO smell like fenugreek too? :LOL










Lauren


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

yeah maple-ish! Matt bought me some frozen waffles but I can't bring myself to eat them now because of the maple syrup! :LOL

I'll be doing the thyroid tests sometime monday or tuesday... I don't even have to see a doctor to get the req. slip! Just have to wait for a call back from the adult medicine dept to tell me the slip is ready and to come test. If I go in the morning they should have results by 7pm. So we shall see.

And I had to go down to Kaiser today because the supplementer I was using got a little hole in the tubing and wasn't dripping right... well I found out the one I had was a temp one, and bought one that's for more long term usage (cost about 10$ more, but if I only use the new one for a day its worth it). It hangs around my neck (as opposed to having to find a place to hook it), and has tubes for *both* boobies! I can stick it on and LEAVE it on for awhile! Hopefully the tape rash from yanking tape off all darn day will go away now!! This new one I can control flow (has three diff sized tubes I can use, and I can raise and lower it)... Thank goodness, this is going to make nighttime SO much easier! I can just sleep with this thing ON instead of having to make ds wait until he's wailing and flailing!









The LC who was at the mom and baby clinic spoke to me while I was there to pick up the SNS and said she's seen it take 6 weeks for milk to come in for some moms. So while I don't want to have to do this for *6* weeks, it makes me feel a little better.

Jane, thank you! Inbox is cleaned out


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## MaggiesMom (May 14, 2003)

Quote:

Its like I want to validate that my body can do *something* right, and I can at least be able to follow my own choices in how I feed my child.
Your body *DID* do something right- it did the _most important thing_ right- I know. I have seen your little baby boy!

Your body did not fail you. Though it did not go the way you hoped, the end result is your beautiful boy.

I know that doesn't help with the milk (and I have had my * very minor compared to what you are going through * bf'ing issues, so I can definitely sympathize) but I just wanted to point that out to you. Your body worked for 9 months, building, growing, and nurturing Orion. Try to remember that. You did what you had to do and you are a great mama!!!
































And I have totally been there with the wasted milk. First I didn't pump much, then found out I had excess lipase, then dd had reflux so no dairy- and I seem to be one whose supply is decreased by soy, you name it, there were a million reasons why not wasting any milk was so important. But I have learned the hard (heartbreaking) way how easy it is to forget the milk you are scalding (bc of excess lipase) on the stove. And that it is not a good idea to store up lots of milk without doing a taste-test first. Had to throw out about 30 oz (!!!) when I learned about the lipase thing and DD didn't like the milk.







So I am right there with you. A 1/4 oz is a 1/4 oz, after all.

You can do it!!!


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## laurata (Feb 6, 2002)

Don't worry about having to supplement, you are doing a great job! Babies often have a growth spurt around 10-14 days, and mama's think, oh no, not enough milk! when really babe is just working with supply and demand. I'm rootin' for ya here!


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## MamaTT (Aug 29, 2003)

Just wanted to post support! one hand, so sorry if I sound blunt.

I used the SNS for almost 7 months so ds could keep nursing after my milk dried up due to pg. Anyhow I know what a PITA it is, but you will be so glad you stuck it out. DS 2 is a week old today and we are tandem nusing. Tough, but I am sooo happy that I have milk for both boys!

You are one awesome mama! Keep it up! (kudos to the pumpers, too! )


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Wow Maggie's Mom! How horrible to have to throw out that much!!





















Thank you for the commiseration!

Yes the SNS is a PAIN but this new one is like 100 times easier. Still a pain, but MUCH better. I couldn't see how someone could use one of the other ones I had long term. I just have to get it working right... he was getting too much at once and threw up, and now he can get enough milk a bit too quickly... this SNS is the one I put lower than the baby so he has to suck it out... I didn't know that at first and had it higher = yarf.


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## mama2bababoo (Aug 22, 2003)

Hi Lisa! Veganmamma's friend here. Just got back on the pump again for you and your little man. Sorry was off of it for Friday but I had to go out of town for my very ill mama. But I'm back on and pumped 5 oz for you today and hope to get a lot more tomorrow. I upped my Fenugreek intake as it has worked the best for my milk supply in the past. As for your MIL's concerns, I am NOT HIV + and can send you my prenatal test results if you want. For piece of mind anyway. I'm so glad that things are improving for you!!! I will send good milk producing thoughts your way. Thanks for the pics of you and your family. Your little guy is sooo precious.


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## mama2bababoo (Aug 22, 2003)

It's me posting again. Just wanted to let you know that LLL told me that if you up your intake of Fenugreek pills to 6 pills three times per day for two to three days and then lower it back down to 3 pills 3 times per day it seems to boost your milk up a lot faster. I have done this in the past and it worked really well by the second day. Just a thought. Anyway, it was my milk mixed in with Lauren's and I feel so special that you are allowing me to do this for you and your son. Thankyou! If you have any questions about the SNS stuff, or just want to vent about it, you can pm me anytime because I have been there. I had to use it until ds was 4 months old because of poor sucking. I threw a party with dh and ds when we didn't have to use it anymore







I agree with Lauren about the growth spurt. It's very possible that your ds is going through one and that's why he needs the extra 1 1/2 onces. Keep up the good work. I'm rooting for you!!


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## XM (Apr 16, 2002)

Hi Lisa! I just found this thread yesterday and it took me this long to read it all!

First, your little man is GORGEOUS! Congratulations! He is the third cutest baby I have ever seen... the tie for first being between Xiola and Ezra, of course :LOL Secondly, I want to thank all you fabulous mamas who have been helping with advice (some of which I have found useful as well) and even with MAMA MILK! That is just awesome.

I want to add my two cents on the discussion re: how the meds administered during your labor did/did not affect your supply. With Xiola, I had a drug-free hospital birth and since my daughter died, I was intentionally trying to dry up my milk (sage tea and pressure wraps). I was leaking everywhere (especially when I thought about my baby girl) and it was making me miserable because I had so looked forward to BFing her. This took months and the milk did'nt dry up completely till I became pregnant with ds.

So, I was not expecting any problems with my supply with ds, since it was almost impossible to dry up my milk the first time. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha sometimes I am so funny. Mind you, I had a homebirth with ds, so there were no drugs, and I did not take any meds (herbals yes, meds no) during my pregnancy.

My milk did'nt actually come in for almost 6 days, and even then my supply was abysmal. Ezra was hungry, and he was getting so fustrated that I was'nt milky yet. We'd both be sobbing. It was heartbreaking, and that kind of stress certainly does'nt help one's supply! I was popping Fenugreek like it was candy, I reeked of maple (to the point that I would get funny looks when I went out) I was skin-to-skin with him around the clock. "24 hours in bed"? Try literally the first 6 weeks, I was in bed topless with my nursling, except to pee. Nothing else mattered.

Everytime I would start to get my supply up, he would hit a growth spurt and we'd be back at square one. We also had latch problems that we did'nt realize we had till ds corrected it himself at 3w. Everyone we asked (midwife, RN/asst midwife, naturopath midwife, BFing friends) said his latch looked good, so naively we did'nt see an LC because if his latch is good what would be the point? I know, DUH... we could have saved ourselves a LOT of trouble with a GOOD LC. Then, right as things started to really come together, my maternity leave was up (only 6 weeks... ah, if only men had babies...) and I had to go back to work. We'd been just barely hanging on as far as supply was concerned, and then they changed my schedule so that I did'nt have enough time to pump... and my supply dropped again. So I quit a couple weeks ago... we hadn't struggled with BFing as long as we had just to have some BFing-phobic boss screw us out of it, and now ds is nursing non-stop to get my supply back up.

I wish we'd have had some mamas locally who were willing to kick down some milk... the only friend who I would have felt comfortable asking was nursing her twins and it was all she could do to keep up her supply for them. I thought about formula to supplement but got so much "that will be the beginning of the end" attitude that we did'nt. Now ds is in the bottom 5% for weight and I kick myself for not having just said, "f*ck you, my baby's hungry" and tried the SNS thing like you're doing. Don't get me wrong, ds is a beautiful, intelligent, healthy baby (and he is still a normal size, just the smaller side of normal)... but I really think we made things harder on ourselves by hesitating to supplement. I applaud you for doing what you feel your baby needs, no matter what anyone else says.

Ezra is now 4 1/2 months old and I am still taking fenugreek. It literally makes the difference as to wether or not I am drippy with milk. I try to drink as much water as I can and eat enough protein, but it's hard when you have a baby who is constantly in arms! And FWIW, I have never felt a letdown or engorgement (well, except that time my idiot boss kept me in a training through a break and I went 5 hours without pumping/nursing... OUCH!). My friends who have ample breasts say that they usually don't get engorged (unlike an A-cup mama, I guess we have room for the milk without it being painful?). And many mamas don't feel their letdown, but know it happens because baby sucks different.

Okay, I'll get to my points. First, Just because a mama has a 'natural' birth does not mean that she is immune to supply problems or a late start with milk. So, on top of everything else you are dealing with right now, don't beat yourself up that the birth doomed you to these problems, it could have happened either way. Secondly, as I found, each birth is different and you may well be a mega-milky mama with your next babe... and even be able to kick down milk to another mama in need!

Lastly, you are a fierce mama, I read your birth story and even as you were being steamrolled by those around you, you kept focused on Orion and I think you handled the situation wonderfully, with grace and courage. Anyone who can labor even 5 minutes on Pit w/o meds is a helluva lot tougher then I am! I know this is hard right now but you are strong and you will be dripping milk sooner then you think.

Love, kisses, and lots and lots of milk... XM


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

mama2bababoo Thank you so much! I'm taking the fenugreek, but 3 tabs 3 times a day because its slightly given me constipation and I don't want it to be worse









Thank you for sharing your story XM! It does make me feel better to know that things could go wrong either way. I try to not beat myself up about the birth too much. Well I don't really have *time* to right now anyways, busy with baby and all... I'm glad things worked out for you, and hope that things work out for me too!

Can I ask anyone who's used an SNS for any length of time: How in the WORLD do you keep the paper medical tape from ripping up your breasts?! Both of my breasts are red and raw and have bits of ripped up skin because of that *&%$ tape! I've tried only leaving the tape on while he eats, but then I'm ripping it off a lot. I've tried leaving the tubing on for longer periods (figuring I wouldn't have to yank it off as much) and then when I do pull it off its *super* stuck! I've tried water on the tape first to loosen it, nope, doesn't work. I try putting the tape in slightly different places, but I can only tape it up so high before the tubing is just *impossible* to get in his mouth...

Thank you everyone for being here for me. It means SO much to me.


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## XM (Apr 16, 2002)

Ack... double post!


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## XM (Apr 16, 2002)

Would rubbing a little bit of, say, olive oil over the tape before/as you are removing it help loosen the adhesive? I think rubbing alcohol would work too but I would'nt be too keen on putting that on my boob, epecially if the skin is already damaged. HTH

Also, FWIW, the fenugreek has... um... the *opposite* effect on me. Can't win either way, huh? :LOL










XM


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## mama2bababoo (Aug 22, 2003)

Hi Lisa. I'm so glad I could help. About the tape, I'm not sure what kind you're using, but the kind they gave me at the LC tore me up too. My mama ended up running to Longs and buying me some paper tape. It's made by Johnson and Johnson and it comes in green and white packaging. This tape was sooooo much nicer to me than the other kind, but it still hurt after awhile because of such frequent use. I too tried moving the tape around to different places. That seemed to help also because the tape wasn't on the same spot every time I nursed. I'm going to pm you so look for my message.

Ps - the Fenugreek has the opposite effect on me if I take to much.


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## seraph (Sep 11, 2002)

We got really cheap generic bandaids and cut off the end sticky parts and used them instead of tape. It was much easier on my skin. Also, after awhile I would nurse for 5 - 10 minutes without the supplementer (If Kaia wasn't starving) and then slide the tube into the corner of her mouth, no tape needed.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

lisa, i've been following this thread a little bit and just wanted to give you a







. it sounds like things are getting better and i hope they continue to improve and quickly.

about the tape -- yes, olive oil or lotion or lanolin worked under the edges of the tape as you pull it off will help. that's a good trick for any bandaid. you can also apply a little lotion, etc, before you put it on to make it less sticky. if you do too much, though, it won't be sticky enough, so you sorta hafta feel your way through that.

hth


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thank you for the tape suggestions... I don't think I could get anything *under* the tape if its been on awhile, but maybe a dab of lotion or lanolin before would help... Hmmmm probably lanolin, I tried lotion just because the tape is also drying my skin up, and it BURNED because of the little tears. It'll have to be a guessing game... and the cheap-o band aids sound really good, since bandaids *never* stick on me for long anyways... I dunno if I've got different tape that "paper tape" this one is the one that came with the SNS and says its "medical tape".


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

how old is orion now? i wasn't sure what day this thread was started on.

i am checking back often, waiting for you to post MY MILK CAME IN!!









ETA: never mind, i see his birthdate right there in your signature. not real observant, am i??


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## bananasmom (Aug 2, 2002)

*Lisa* - I know you are getting tons of advice here... just thought I'd pass on what my one LC is recommending for the birth of my next baby. She is recommending that I use (a lot) of the following 2 tinctures, from Motherlove. I also have 300 tabs of Domperidone in reserve.

http://www.motherlove.com/prd_tinctu...l#moremilkplus

Quote:

More Milk Plus

2 oz: $13.95, 4 oz: $24.95, 8 oz: $35.00
(fenugreek, blessed thistle, nettles, fennel seed)

Combines the benefits of More Milk with fenugreek seed, the herb most often recommended by lactation consultants. See dosage information under More Milk.

Note: Blessed thistle and fenugreek are contraindicated during pregnancy.
Fenugreek may lower blood sugar levels.

Goat's Rue

2 oz: $13.95, 4 oz: $24.95, 8 oz: $35.00 (goat's rue)

This tincture to increase breast milk is made in a vinegar and alcohol base (as opposed to an alcohol and water base), which more effectively extracts the plants constituents. See dosage information under More Milk.

Note: Goat's Rue may lower blood sugar.
This LC is really well known nationally, and speaks at LLL conferences on low supply (her name is Lisa Marasco). I can provide her email address to you, if you wish. Just PM me.

~~~

This thread is just proving to me what I've known all along... there are really women who don't have enough supply, and it is damn *hard* to deal with. I met up with such resistance and disbelief (from the bf'ers IRL) that I just gave up, out of sheer frustration. None of this is any of the bf'ing books, and the experiences shared here are so rare. I'm so glad for MDC, that we can all learn from one another.

~~~

*Lisa* - still rooting for you!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I wish I could post about my milk coming in too! Soon I hope... although at this point I'm thinking that regardless I'm going to have supply issues... anyone have a good supply after taking 12+ days for the milk to arrive?

Thank you bananasmom for the links for those tinitures, I'll check them out







And yes, I'd love that LC's addy! Maybe she can offer more help...


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Ditto on the Motherlove tinctures! You may want to order a couple of bottles of each; you use them by drops per body weight and you take them every couple of hours to load up in the first day or two, so they get used up fast. They don't taste all that great but what I did was put them in Mother's Milk or red raspberry tea, that way the honey and tea herbs could cover up the flavoring a little bit.

Have you gotten your thyroid levels checked yet?? Make sure to look at the www.thyroid.about.com page on interpreting test results; I just looked there as per someone's recommendation here (bananasmom? beanma?







don't remember) and found out I'm actually hypothyroid as per the new, lower reference levels for TSH but my [email protected]#$ doctor didn't pick up on the fact that the reference levels have changed. Pretty ironic that I'm telling everyone else to go get their levels checked....


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I'm waiting for Kaiser to call me back and tell me if I can just pick up a lab slip or have to see a doctor first. They should call me tommorow, or possibly tuesday. Thank you for the link, it will be helpful in interperting my results.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

I was just learning about hypothyroid and I am encouraging everyone to get checked too! The new guidelines are really the key- many people were getting their tests back and being told they were fine.
Lisa- I will see you tomorrow.








Lauren


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

just had the test done. dr appt tommorow to go over the results.

NAK (with Mama2bababoo's milkies







)


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## seraph (Sep 11, 2002)

nak...
my milk came in on day 22 and by 6 weeks we had no supply problems, still going strong.


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## mama2bababoo (Aug 22, 2003)

Yea!!!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by seraph_
*nak...
my milk came in on day 22 and by 6 weeks we had no supply problems, still going strong.*
thank you for that hope! If you did it we can too! I got my domperidone today Jane, thank you! Taking that, taking the fenugreek, the mother's milk tea (but yiiiick it tastes icky, I'm afraid I'm not drinking a quart a day but I'm trying my best), and I'll get the results of my thyroid tests tommorow...

I'm starting to get thirstier too... that could be a good sign. "Drinking to thirst" wasn't too impressive before, I made myself drink more than "to thirst" because it just wasn't cutting it, but today and yesterday I have been SO thirsty! Dunno if that 'means' anything, but I have hope. Still pumping the same amount, so who knows there...

The LC at Kaiser today told me I should start trying relgan (of course she's not going to recommend domperidone since its not approved for use in the USA) and I know its going to be world's cheaper to go that route, but I'm concerned about the side effect of intensifying/possibly causing depression. Has anyone here taken Reglan? If so how has it treated you?

Oh yeah Dh told me today I smell like maple syrup! :LOL


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Glad the domperidone got there - give it a few days. Not sure if this is what you meant by your post, but don't even think about taking Reglan and domperidone together! The domperidone is enough, with all the other stuff you're taking. Domperidone is much safer than Reglan, as per Thomas Hale, Ph.D., author of Medications and Mother's Milk:

Quote:

The only problem with domperidone(Motilium) is that it was never cleared for use in the USA. This does not mean its not safe. Its used in every other country in world almost, including Great Britain, Australia, Canada, etc.

It was not even reviewed by our FDA, the company lost their patent right and therefore decided to not bring it to the USA. It is orders of magnitude safer then Reglan.

It is perfectly legal for a doctor to right a prescription for domperidone and for a compounding pharmacist to make and dispense it. Perfectly legal...
from Hale's forum on medications and mother's milk

When I started drinking a lot more water several years ago, I found I got thirstier as well...I think it was my body's way of telling me to keep up my hydration levels.

Hang in there!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Oh no Jane I'm not thinking of taking reglan AND domperidone. No worries there









Thanks Celestial for sharing...


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Wanted to give everyone an update.







Orion likes to have these issues with nursing on one side or the other for a bit, like he just does *not* want the right or left side for a few hours sometimes, so last night he would NOT nurse on the left side. I could get him latched, but he'd only suck like twice, pull off and scream. So I did my best on that side, but he was mostly eatting on the right.

Anyways, so ds wakes me up this morning, and my left breast feels *slightly* fullish! I was gently squeezing to feel how full and a little jet of milkies shot out!







So from 9am to noon/1pm I just fed Orion with my breasts, no supplement! He ate at 9am and totally passed back out for a few hours (a sure fire way to see that he's full and happy). From 11am-1pm or so he just nursed non stop, screamed when he was off, and it just got pretty clear to me at that point that he wasn't getting 100% full on "me", so I pulled the supplementer out again. He filled up (I didn't measure, but it wasn't a huge amount), and I've been using the supplementer since then, but he's eatting less of the supplement. So things are improving!

I saw the doc yesterday, and my thyroid is fine. She's running some other tests though, including testing the prolactin levels in my blood. I didn't know they could do that! Its good I gave blood for that right before I took the first domperidone...


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Hey, milky jets, that's progress! Yippee!























Not to be too paranoid, but did you get a copy of your thyroid test results and compare them with the numbers at www.thyroid.about.com? As I mentioned above, the reference numbers changed this year - and my regular doc didn't pick up on that. Grrr.

Keep nursing that baby, I'm sure he'll be getting more and more of your milkies!







:bf


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

I am SO happy for you Lisa! That is major progress. You are on your way!


















Lauren


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Yeah Lisa!


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## bananasmom (Aug 2, 2002)

milky jets?????

That is fabulous news!!! YAY FOR LISA AND ORION!

~~~

Quote:

Some one please correct me if I'm wrong. It's been about 5 years since I did this research, and discussed it with my IBCLC.
I've heard that too, plus I think the range of norms is very very wide.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Yup just one little 'jet', I didn't keep up the pressure to see what kind of spurt I could get, I just got the little guy on there pronto!









I forgot to add in that as I was laying there side nursing him (which I LOVE, and I can't do with the SNS, so it was pure heaven to be able to LAY down and nurse when my tailbone hurts) and I was feeling a trickle as I nursed him. I was halfway asleep and kept thinking 'what in the world is that leaking on me??' it was my other breast! Not a *ton* of leakage, but this is BIG for me, before this morning at the *most* I could maybe get a couple of beaded up drops of milk by hand.

Thank goodness for these little signs of improvment. I'm getting SO sick of the SNS!


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## bfbabygirl (Sep 17, 2003)

GREAT


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

hooray lisa! :LOL

fwiw, i only sprayed a couple of times. i was a big dripper. well, not a _big_ dripper, but one side would drip whenever dd nursed on the other side. it wasn't enough to catch or anything. i hear about moms who have so much that they can catch the overflow (spray or drips) to keep, but that wasn't me, so drips and milky jets sound great to me! dd was a fat baby, too, so don't think you have to spray across the room to have enough







. sounds like you're doing great!


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## laurata (Feb 6, 2002)

Lisa, that's WONDEFUL!! I am so happy for you.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Lisa, that is big news!









I am so happy for you, that brought tears (happy ones this time) to my eyes! WIll see you later today if you're available.









Lauren


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Hi Lisa_Lynn,

Just wondering how you and that sweet little Orion are doing?

Emily


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## mama2bababoo (Aug 22, 2003)

Hi Lisa! I haven't checked in your thread for awhile and I'm totally excited about what you posted!!! That is the best news I've heard in a long time. I wish I had known about your progress when I talked to you last so I could have congratulated you in person. You're one tough mama!







ttys.


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

Lisa,
That is such great news. Remember that even if you don't leak at all, or feel a letdown, you can still have enough milk. I could squirt "milk jets" sometimes...after dd had nursed but never felt letdown and rarely ever leaked more than a few drops, and that stopped within the first month. As I posted before, babe is now 19 lbs at 8 months so she definitely got enough milk.

You're well on your way. I have no doubt that you'll be happily breastfeeding a year from now!


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

I just wanted to say congrats and add that I am also one of those mamas that has leaked at total of 5 times in my life, NEVER felt my milk come in after ds was born, and have NEVER felt letdown, not ever. I also rarely get that full feeling, even after he hasnt nursed for a loong time. He was ebf for the first 9 months or so and is still going strong at 19 months!! SO, from what you have posted, it sounds like you will be off the sns in no time!! Good luck!!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thank you everyone







Just wanted to do a quick update while ds naps next to me. I was feeling a little down about things until monday, because I didn't have any repeats of any milky jets, or any fullness, ect... and pumping is gaining me less that before. At this point all I can do is wait. I'm doing/taking every possible thing that I know of... anyways, monday I was nursing him at Kaiser after his ped appt (my friend said I got LOTS of dirty looks. Sheesh in the ped department? Come *on* people, I think I should have free reign to nurse there... guess it was because its really hard to be discrete nursing with the SNS so lotsa boobie got flashed)... Annnnyways, nursing him there I was trying to move my breast so my nipple was in a better position for me and out squirted another little jet







Yeah!

I'm also getting better at using this thing at night, I have to stay on my back, half way sitting/reclining, and have to prop us up with pillows and blankies, but yesterday I got to fall asleep lots when he nursed! Yeah!

Ok, so I know I'm all happy happy joy joy right now, but it has been pretty freaking difficult. I've had moments I wanted to just say screw it, but knew I'd hate myself if I threw in the towel without doing everything I can... so yeah, its still difficult, but at least I'm getting better dealing with the 'hardware' ...


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## bilbo333 (Aug 13, 2003)

big hug Lisa for hanging in there. I know how hard it can be - the extra sleep will sure help tho!! you've given your ds such a wonderful start to life!


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Lisa, I've been following this thread and am just so impressed with your dedication.

I wanted to point out something another poster wrote, but I can't tell from your posts that you noticed, or even if this is still an issue for you...

The adhesive tape I used with my SNS -- after MUCH trial and error (and sores to prove it) -- was the first-aid tape for sensitive skin. It's made by Johnson & Johnson and sold in green/white packaging, and is available at any grocery store or pharmacy. It peels off sooo easily, no pulling at all (much better than band-aids even). It took me a while to finally find it, but it made life a little easier - plus, I found that even though it peeled off easily, it usually stayed sticky enough to use for next time.

Also, I'm not sure if this is so redundant by now, but you definitely want the syringe/vial at or below your nipple so the baby has to suck. My dd and ds had reflux so I found that out the hard way. Sounds like you know this, but it's hard to do lying down without some manuevering, so thought I'd just mention it again.

Big hug to you mama.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thanks Twinmommy! (both for the praise and advice)









I've found that cut up band aids work really well for me (for some reason band aids loose their stick on me after awhile, but hold good before that), but once I run thru the batch I've cut up I'll see about hunting down that tape (or hey maybe I'll get to stop using this sns by then! I cut up a LOT of band aids :LOL)

As far as lowering the SNS while he's feeding, the SNS I have now is one that has three different sized tubing options. Normal flow, small flow, and large flow. The normal flow one got a hole in it, and I'd have to buy the WHOLE thing again (at 30$), so I'm using the small flow tubing... when I was using the normal flow, I did lower it, or keep it at his level. The small flow one I actually have to raise, or he doesn't get anything out of the tube even when he's mad hungry sucking *hard*. Don't worry though, I make sure he's still sucking the same way he does/did prior to the SNS... he'll sometimes try to pop off the nipple and use the tube as a straw too, but I don't let him...

So I'm wondering if anyone knows how much food an "average" three week old would take in? I know its hard to measure that, but I'm trying to get a rough guess how much he's taking in supplements... He's taking about 12 ounces of supplement in 24 hours now... I guess it would just help to know that he's getting *something* from me... It'd sure help my determination level!









Oh and everyone here, thanks for the moral support, advice, milkies







, domperidone, ect... I truly *needed* all the support I've gotten from everyone, and would most likely have given up already without it. Thank you!


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## laurata (Feb 6, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Lisa_Lynn_
*So I'm wondering if anyone knows how much food an "average" three week old would take in? I know its hard to measure that, but I'm trying to get a rough guess how much he's taking in supplements... He's taking about 12 ounces of supplement in 24 hours now... I guess it would just help to know that he's getting *something* from me... It'd sure help my determination level!







*
Oh, he's definately getting something! As I understand it, babies usually get an average of 32 oz per day, but it's really quite a range- anywhere from 20 to 40+.

Lisa, I think it is so awesome that you are going to such lengths to nurse your sweet babe. You are an incredible mama and Orion is lucky to have you!


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Ahhhh... now here's a subject I can obsess about! :LOL

A few weeks into our premature-twins-learning-to-nurse extravaganza, ds developed bad reflux (around 37 weeks gestation equiv., or when he was 5 weeks old). He began to associate feeding with being in pain.







He began bobbing on and off, rolling nipple around in his mouth, gagging, etc. His weight gain slowed way down. It was bad. Finally, we figured out it was reflux and he went on Zantac. Well it took him a few weeks after that to re-learn how to suck, and in the meantime we syringe fed and cup fed just to get him some milk. (And this is back when we were still mostly using EBM via bottle and EBM via SNS, since they couldn't nurse well enough yet, so I knew exactly how much they were getting anyway.)

All in all, we had 6 weeks or so of poor weight gain. During that time, I devoured everything I could get my hands on about how much is the bare minimum for a baby of such and such an age and weight. Well, I learned an important lesson... first and foremost, as long as the baby is growing well (and consistently), it doesn't matter if they take in 10 ounces or 40. Case in point: my dd. She didn't eat much more than ds if at all, and she gained like a champ! She just needed less. Second thing I learned is there is no average amount. From all I read and caluclated, the average 9 or so pound 3 week old needs *at least* 18 to 24 ounces of milk a day, and many drink even more than that. Hoooey. Dd didn't eat that much until she was (equivalent to) 2 months old and she gained beautifully, catching up to full term babies by 4 months.

By the time dd and ds were 3 months old (or equivalent to 4 weeks old), we had managed to do away with SNS and bottles), so I don't have any "numbers" after that.









So the moral of my story is have your ds weighed. If he's gaining nicely, don't worry about it. If he's getting 12 ounces from SNS, he's probably getting at least another 5-10 from you! YAY!







And if his rate of gain is slowing down (he's dropping weight percentiles rapidly), maybe you can try to up the amount in the SNS until his gain picks back up.

I found this helpful to chart growth in the early (and worrisome) days:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/about/major/...arts.htm#Clin1

(These will be good at least for a couple of months. I've heard BFd babies should be compared on different charts, but these will nevertheless show you rate of gain changes, which is all that really matters.)

p.s., if reflux is an issue, LMK. Been there.







:

[Edited to fix URL]


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## gurumama (Oct 6, 2002)

This chart was ENORMOUSLY helpful to me when dealing with low supply:

Breastmilk Intake Guidelines by Weight
Weight Amount in ounces per 24 hours
5 lbs 13 oz/ 371 ml
6 lbs 16 oz/ 457 ml
7 lbs 19 oz/542 ml
8 lbs 21 oz/600 ml
9 lbs 24 oz/685 ml
10 lbs 27 oz/771 ml
11 lbs 29 oz/828 ml
12 lbs 32 oz/914 ml
14 lbs 37 oz/1057 ml
16 lbs 43 oz/1228 ml
Source: Riordan and Auerbach, Breastfeeding and Human Lactation, Second Edition,1999, p. 361. Used with permission

So if he's 9 lbs, he need 24 ounces--and if you're supplementing 12 ounces, AND he's producing the 6-8 wet diapers, is steadily gaining weight, and is content, then you're making 12 ounces, approximately.

This is also helpful for WOHM who need to know how much pumped BM to leave.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thank you Twinmommy and Gurumama









I'm not worried about the weight gain and such, he's gained beautifully (at his 20 day appt, he had gained 1 pound and 4 ounces, he's 8 pounds 6 ounces now. Was born 7 pounds 2 ounces, and went down to 6 pounds 4 ounces) and has LOTS of wet dipes (he is a major pee machine! Disposies won't contain it, and I have to use plastic pants to keep his clothes from getting soaked over the prefolds).

I just want to be able to say to myself: "I *know* I'm partially feeding him". You know, to be able to guess that I'm giving him half, or a fourth, or whatever of his nutrition. So I don't feel like the human bottle and like he's only getting the formula or donated breastmilk.

I don't limit how much he takes by the SNS. The one I have will hold 5 ounces, I fill it to 4 ounces and feed him (of course he doesn't take all that at once). I usually have to fill the SNS 3 times a day. That's where I'm getting my 12 ounces of supplement....

Sooo by your chart gurumama I'm half feeding him!







And from your info Twinmommy its 6-12 ounces all Mama's milk!







Which either way makes me feel happy! I'm making *something*!


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## bananasmom (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:

So I'm wondering if anyone knows how much food an "average" three week old would take in? I know its hard to measure that, but I'm trying to get a rough guess how much he's taking in supplements... He's taking about 12 ounces of supplement in 24 hours now
The average range for a formula fed baby is 2 to 2.5 ounces, per pound of baby's weight (18 - 22.5 ounces/day). I think someone mentioned 32 ounces a day, but that's pretty rare at your son's age and size. Actually, I think that 32 oz/day for a newborn would be an indication of overfeeding or perhaps a digestive problem.

At only 12 ounces of formula a day, you are doing great!!!


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Lisa, just wanted to underscore my point about averages being that... just averages. There's a wide range of acceptable daily ounces, depending on a variety of individual factors, but the key is really whether your baby is gaining nicely and steadily (and indirectly, diaper counts).

Sounds like you're good on all fronts, so even if he is only drinking as little as 16 ounces, or as much as 30+, you have nothing to worry about.









You deserve a huge pat on the back, because it sounds like he's close to getting half his milkies from you / EBM, which is a huge achievement already!!


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

. oops... duplicate post


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I hear you Twinmommy and totally understand









Like I said, the only reason I care about how much an average child of my ds's size eats is to reassure myself that I'm making some milk for him. It will be far easier to continue this battle thinking 'I know he's getting at least a little from me' you know? When my pumping yields so little, its frustrating. I keep telling myself that what I can pump has nothing to do with how much I'm producing, but its still hard to see those few drops and thats it you know? So thinking "I'm *probably* making 1/3-1/2 of his food" really REALLY helps.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Hi Lisa_Lynn

First, let me re-iterate from previous posts. You are AWESOME! Orion is blessed to have you as his Mama.

I was curious as to what type of breast-pump you are using? Surprisingly, I could never get as much milk with my electric pump (hospital grade no less)as I could get with me manual one. Some women are the opposite...hell, MOST women are the opposite







.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I just wanted to revisit this thread to give all the wonderful







MDC mama's here a happy update! As you can all see on my signature I've been able to drop my supplementing from 12 to 8 ounces a day. And all of Halloween I have not given ds a DROP of formula (or expressed/donated milk). Not ONE *drop*.























I noticed that ds was fussy and seemed hungry alllll evening long, and that was when he was getting supplemented. Reading about how babies nurse a lot in the evening because of the lower prolactin levels made me go "hmmmm". So I decided I wouldn't supplement unless I couldn't hand express a drop or two first. I figured if I could squeeze out a drop or two ds hadn't "milked me dry" and I wanted him to have every single drop of breastmilk before I had to supplement for him.

Tonight I could keep squeezing out a drop or two (and an occasional little 'squirt') all evening. Even though he has been nursing so much my nipples are tender. He's sitting next to me now, not exactly looking 100% content, but not the screaming, mad, obviously hungry little guy he was at 3 days old.

I'm not sure if I can say he will never get supplemented now (esp since his last supplementing was pretty late on the 30th), I don't want to set myself up for disappointment, but I'm really thinking that we ARE going to get to exclusivley breastfeeding!









I think what has really really helped was stopping to supplement at bedtime. I just said 'screw it' to the SNS (which really bummed me out, made me feel like I wasn't feeding him at all) and I just nurse him sidelaying all night long. He wakes up a LOT to eat. But its ok, I get more sleep now. I can fall back to sleep after I latch him on. We stay in bed about 12 hours total. I get enough sleep (I feel like *me* again, not the horribly sleep deprived monster I was), and he is REALLY stimulating me by nursing so much.

So I just had to come in and do a great big happy dance!!








:LOL


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Oh one more thing... for a 6 week old (almost 7 weeks) am I still looking out of the same amount of wet dipes (6-8)? I want to make sure my desire to EBF doesn't get in the way of getting enough nutrition into Orion... His amount of wet dipes, or *how* wet they drops the less he gets supplemented, but I figure as long as he's still having enough wet dipes its ok...


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Congratulations Lisa and Orion. Your hard work is paying off.


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## gurumama (Oct 6, 2002)

Yeah!


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

(this is when we need boob smilies)

I just read this riveting thread from beginning to end, I'd never seen it before. The little things I have to add:

*Lisa, Orion is lovely. Ii love his little sensuous movie star mouth









*You are one awesome mama, being so dedicated and dealing with so much hardship ~ from all the pre-birth inlaw shit to the birth and now this. If one believes in children choosing their parents, Orion must have made sure to pick himself the very best









*veganmamma may I please marry you if you are ever available? I will play governator and mow the whole line ahead of me down in one fell swoop just to get to you first. Got zee accent too. Or will you please post some very unattractive stuff about yourself, so I can start believing that you're for real?









*I have a measly cup A that has over the years grown to cup B/C depending on preg and nurse status. One of my boobs has an inverted niipple, and both my babes reject it. That means that I nurse a 4 yo and a 3 mo on one pretty modest boob. They both thrive and always have. Moral: even if you don't see it come out, and even if you can't really feel it in there (I do get engorged, but only if nobody nurses for 4 hours and that never really happens), it somehow does make its way to baby.

*If Orion drinks and generally seems content with it (and you are a pro now at interpreting that) it doesn't really matter how many diapers you get. I mean, what is a wet diaper? I CD in fitteds and cpf's, so I get 10 a day, but that would only equal like 4 sposies kwim?

*btw what does the lower prolactin thing mean? That there's less milk? Willem nurses all nite too, and sometimes it drives me nuts. Is there a psychological effect of that, too? Like, does prolactin affect mood? tia


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Oh Lisa! I knew you could do it!! I had a feeling when you just made up your mind to stop supplementing it would happen for you. You knew the right time. I am so happy for you. You are an awesome mamma! I can't wait to give you a big hug!

Simone- you know I"m not married, so whenever you leave your dh, we can have a nice little ceremony.









L


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Yippee! WTG! I'm so happy that you're seeing the fruit of all your labor... you've put so much effort into breastfeeding and I'm just so in awe.









PS- as for wet/poopy diapers: http://www.lalecheleague.org/FAQ/bm.html , this may be helpful!


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## mama2bababoo (Aug 22, 2003)

Lisa, this is the best news I've heard in a long time!!! I'm so happy for you that all your hard work is paying off! Keep up the good work mamma


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

NAK

I figured I'd do another update









Since the 7th of November Orion has had ONE bottle (4 ounces of Mama2bababoo's milkies) when I had to leave ds for 4 hours with my MIL while I got a root canal done...

So it's party time!






















YEAH!!!!!!!!























I just wanted to let everyone who has been so wonderful with support, advice, websites, and even milkies (Veganmamma and Mama2bababoo you're wonderful!







) know the good news!

I still need to get him in to be weighed to make sure he's gaining ok, but all other signs are he's doing fine







He is a little nurseaholic! Nurses alllllllllllllllllllllllll the time


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

All I can say is









You rock! I knew you could do it!!
L


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

WOOHOO!


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Great to hear!! Well worth the troubles, I'm sure you'd agree.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I am in awe of you!!!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Aw thanks







Yes SO worth the trouble! I had moments during all of this that I doubted that, but trusted everyone who told me it would be worth it, and yes it most certainly is! From knowing I'm feeding my son the best, to the time he actually looks at *ME* while he nurses, to being able to get far more sleep at night than if I had to prepare bottles, its so worth it! Now if my Dh would just stop asking me "are you sure he's getting enough??" because he nurses SO much (especially at night)


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## Little Bear's Mama (Mar 20, 2003)

That's GREAT news! Congrats!


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## milk4two (Mar 20, 2003)

Wonderful news! What an inspiring story.


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## mama2bababoo (Aug 22, 2003)

Hey Lisa! WooooooooHoooooooo!!!!!! I knew you could do it!! I would have posted earlier, but have been nursing ds back to health from recent surgery.







I'm totally excited for you and your little man!









J


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Wow. What an awesome thread.
I'm exhausted from reading it.










But boy do I love a happy ending ...










Thank you so much for sharing this, Lisa Lynn ... and congratulations on your beautiful boy ...


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thank you Amy! It is certainly a book isn't it? :LOL I'm very glad things are working out too! Gotta get ds weighed to relieve those bits of worries I still have... but we are doing great!


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Way to go Lisa!! He's a lucky boy!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Thank you AnnMarie! And I'm a lucky Mama! I never would have guessed how darn EASY breastfeeding is now from those first 6 weeks or so! Time consuming still (ds is a constant nurser at night) but so much easier than breaking out a bottle. I just wish Dh didn't feel so left out... he's never home when ds is agreeable without having to be on the breast 24/7. I just keep reminding myself, and Dh, that this time is short, and that Dh can help out when we get to solids (not until at LEAST 6 months, maybe later if he doesn't have the "signs", and no solids unless he's got a full tum of breastmilk first!).

It was very sweet last night Dh went to bed when ds was happy... and about 5 minutes after Dh went to bed he called me in "can you bring in Orion, I miss him..." It was too sweet! So I brought him in and we all hung out until Daddy was passed out.


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## sarahbay (Oct 30, 2003)

You and little Orion and your dh rock!!!!

What a happy nursing family!! I remember feeling like my hubby was sorta left out too for a while there, but baby grows sooooo quick and then they are wrestlin in the bed together, just like a DH and ds/dd should!

I loved your story and hope I have time to print it out someday...

I hope that all new mommas can be a strong momma bear like you and have the courage to persevere, even in the face of the MD world!

With good friends, correct advice and lots of love!

Ode to the strong women of the world!!!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Aw thank you Sarah! I'm so glad I perserved. I just used my stubborness to get through it (kinda the same thing I did when I quit smoking over 3 years ago).... Everytime I thought about quitting I'd think about how I'd feel later on.... that really gave me the strength to continue. I would have felt HORRIBLE if I would have quit without a huge struggle!


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## mamabeth (Jul 7, 2003)

Hi Lisa--
I just wanted to add my congrats as well to you!!! I had a similar story although not as severe...planned natural birth ending in many drugs and a c-section, milk not coming in for a while, etc., and it's great to hear of another mama who persevered.

Many pats on the back to you and your cute baby! I saw your pic on breastfeeding.com.









Peace.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Hi Lisa,

Just wanted to add my 'CONGRATS' to the pile







.I have nothing but respect and admiration for you!









I was telling your story to a friend of mine the other day. Now granted, this friend is *quite* young (mean both in years and in attitude) and has no children, but her response was "Why doesn't she just give him formula? I was raised on formula and I'm just fine." I wanted to SMACK her...I didn't, BUT I WANTED TOO!







My feeble response, thru gritted teeth, was that you wanted what was best for your babe, as I do, and as breastfeeding is the absolute BEST, you were willing to to make some short term sacrifices. WEll, more than short term, but relatively speaking.

I HATE this attitude, just HATE it! I didn't go thru anything near what you went thru, but BF'ing didn't come easy to ds and I and we struggled for a few weeks to get the hang of it and so this offends me personally. Do you ever get this? How do you deal with it? It made me feel like she was negating your whole struggle and mine too (altho as I said, didn't experience anything like you).

P.s. That's one little charmer you have there!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Hehe Beth you're right I am up on breastfeeding.com! Or at least my boob is! :LOL

Pumpkinhead I've never had anyone flat out ask me why I didn't just use formula, most people around me know I was planning on breastfeeding very strongly, so I suppose they didn't think to ask if they felt formula was "fine".

I did have my best friend, when I called and was whining to her on the phone say "Why don't you just give him a bottle then?"







: She didn't mean to be rude, her son is just a few months older than mine, and she started supplementing him very early (within the first month) because he would want to nurse 24/7 and just figured he was "too hungry" and when her nipples wanted to fall off from him being on the breast forever (she never saw a LC to see if his latch was ok or anything...







), and assumed the same with me. Regardless of me explaining when she was going through this about growth spurts and comfort nursing and such. Her son weaned at 4 months old because she wasn't comfortable nursing in public so she gave bottles and while her mom was in the hospital from surgery gave so many bottles that her ds refused to nurse afterwards.

Anyways it pissed me off that she said that to me, when I was just looking for a supportive and kind ear.... but all I told her was something about how dedicated I was to breastfeeding and that I WAS going to breastfeed him regardless and that it would feel like a personal failure to me if I didn't.

No one else has cared to say anything, but if they did I've got a handy dandy "why breastfeeding is grand" paper I put together from lots of sources, and if it was someone I saw regularly I'd give it to them next time I saw them. I'm horrible at good comebacks in the middle of things though...


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