UPDATE #2 GOOD NEWS: forced potty training or change daycares!!!

[griffin2004]

When I picked DD up from her daycare center tonight, I was informed of a new policy that is being enforced by the state licensor. No one knew if it's a law or just policy, so I'll need to do some more research. Basically, here's the gig:
--children can only stay in the Toddler room up to 30 months
--children can't go into the Pre-School room unless they're potty trained

DD is currently in the Toddler room and will be 30 months on 6-5-05 and she is showing NO interest in potty training. Our ped along with everything I've read said not to force the potty stuff until the child shows interest. Plus, I don't believe she is emotionally mature enough to move up to the older room.

So here's my option: yank DD out of the only center she's ever been in where she knows all the teachers and kids AND which is next door to her godfather's office in case of emergencies AND which is less than 10 minutes from our home and from my work. I live in a small town where there are not a lot of options and for personal reasons I prefer to avoid in-home providers.

I alternate between being furious and being devastated. What a way to end the week! Ugh!

[lauren]

This seems like a no win policy! Is the day care really saying they will have children leave if this does not happen? I like to think that for every policy there is an exception. Would it make sense to approach the state licensing people to explain "real life" situations to them? Or find out if there is a waiver available for the children already in the day care (kind of like a 'grandfather clause' since the policy is new? I guess before making a decision I'd find out more about how this "rule" can be tested or pushed. It doesn't seem wise or fair to have to switch day cares!!

[MsMoMpls]

I pulled my son out of a daycare center because it became so clear that their expectations of children and their values and goals, we not mine. I feel so much better now that he is in a private home with a momma that I respect, who respects Joey's individual needs and development. I didn't hate the center, but after finding a good in-home, I would never go back to a center.

[sweetest]

for you .....

That stinks. Our daycare basically has a different rate for children who need diapering. I think this is a good way to go.

You might want to go the "enforce the contract" route - did you register for a year (acedemic or calender?) if you still have time left and there is nothing in the contract about kicking out 2 1/2 year olds then you can at least make a case to keep you in (or at least refund your registration fees).

Ugh - dealing with daycare is so exhausting

[Dylan'sMom]

I would definitely look into a "grandfather clause" or waiver to the new rule. The other thing I was thinking is that if this is a STATE licensing rule, you are going to have the same problem in whatever center you try to place your DD.

[TiredX2]

I would first look into if this is a law or just their personal preference.

Then I would talk to other parents. Chances are you will not be the only parent concerned about this.

Additionally, what do they mean by "trained"? Do they mean no diapers (but pull ups are fine)? Will the children be given help/reminded? How occasional of accidents will be "acceptable"? Etc...

2.5 is below the average age for potty training, (here is an article: http://www.ynhh.org/healthlink/pedia...rics_4_03.html stating 32.5 months for girls for daytime and 35 months for boys) so I really don't see how a daycare would pull this off without loosing business (and they obviously have to have exceptions for develpmentally delayed children, children w/illness, etc...). Also, are they *doing* the training?

I'd try to get more info before making any decisions.

[mlawlessg]

I would look up your state's regs here...
http://nrc.uchsc.edu/STATES/states.htm

and if it isn't a state reg - I would complain to the director that your child is not ready for the move and that you want dc to stay in the toddler room until ready to be PT.

[Fiercemama]

Just to add another perspective. I know that at our centre, there are certain public health policies regarding diapers that are different in the toddler vs. the preschool room, and I believe it has to do with the different facilities, IE the toddler room has a change table and the preschool room doesn't. You may want to inquire about that? That being said, there is not an expectation that kids are potty trained before they go up to the preschool room at age 2.5 yrs. They are encouraged to be thinking about it, trying out the potty in the toddler room, but I'm sure the staff would deal with it if the child wasn't. There are lots of diapers, pull ups and accidents in our Preschool room! :LOL

[griffin2004]

I was able to speak w/ the center's director today and got more information. Apparently, these age group breaks are state law but the center has been skating by not really observing them. Now that they are in the relicensing process, they have to comply. Someday I hope to meet in a dark alley the numbskull state bureaucrat thinks it's better for a 2.5 year old to be with 5 year olds than with 2 year olds!

Anyway, the upshot is that DD can't stay in Toddlers after June and she can't fly up to Preschool unless she's potty trained. Not to mention that she is very young for her age and would totally drown in the Preschool room (18 kids ages 2.5-5 with only 2 teachers). And Dylan's mom is right on point: any center is going to have the same restrictions.

So, I'm basically forced to hire a nanny until DD is both potty trained AND I feel she is emotionally mature enough to enter the Preschool room. I know there are lots of wonderful in-home providers out there, but that is not an option for us (personal reasons/preference; no slam against the vast majority of in-homes). I'm a single mom who took a 3/4-time job to be able to spend more time with DD, so needless to say a personal nanny isn't exactly in the budget. But of course I'll find a way to do what's best for DD.

The other option the director gave me is to have DD evaluated for an IEP (individual education plan; our state's version of special ed.). If granted, the IEP would legally allow DD to stay in the Toddler room as long as she needed to. The director doesn't think we have much of a chance of passing the assessment, but I'll call the agency tomorrow and see what's what.

This so sucks. I feel like our world is unravelling.

Thanks for listening.

[matts_mamamama]

Wait. Your dc goes from toddler to preschool?? (Sorry, should have read your op more thoroughly). My dc has it like this: Infants (0-12mos) Toddlers (1-2yrs) Twaddlers (2-3ys) Preppers (3-3.5ish not potty trained) and Preschoolers (3.5 + potty trained. Our state law also indicates they cannot go into Preschool without being potty trained, therefore, they came up with the interim rooms, which I totally love. Also, they go "visiting" for quite awhile before they get moved to the next room, which really seems to help the kids with transitions. It's TutorTime, fyi, just in case there are some in your area - I think they may be nationwide. A bit more $$, but my son loves it and so do I.

Anyway, I'm sorry you've got so much trouble - nothing worse for peace of mind than having childcare up in the air. Good luck.

[Momtwice]

That's a terrible, unfair, inappropriate rule. I'm sorry!

[Geofizz]

I wonder if the director only gave you part of the story. I think in most states, the legal ratios of child to caregiver changes at 30 months. That doesn't mean that they can't have better than the legal ratios. By keeping your child in the under 2.5 room, they would be putting her in a "high" ratio spot that could be taken by another child. It's a cost thing.

The center that my dd is in has a 18mo to 30 mo room, 30 mo to 3.5 or 4 room and a 4 and up room. This center is big enough to have kids in different levels even with the same ratios, largely for the reasons you just said -- 2.5 year olds can't expected to be potty trained and they don't belong with kids on their way to kindergarten.

Potty training happens in the 30 mo to 3.5/4 room. Kids move up once potty trained and the parents and teachers agree that the child is ready.

It might be worth your time to make some phone calls and see if there are other centers nearby that can work with you and your daughter. My gut is really telling me you are only getting half the story here.

[jeyer]

I agree that they are not being honest with you. I looked it up, and your state (washington, right? I saw that on your blog) specifically allows for leeway/exceptions between age groups depending on the child's individual needs.

This is directly from Washington State's regulations:

WAC 388-295-2090 What are the required staff to child ratios and maximum group sizes for my center?

(6) After consulting with the child's parent, you may place the individual child in a different age group and serve the child within the different age group's required staff-to-child ratio based on the child's:

(a) Developmental level; and

(b) Individual needs.

and WAC 388-295-2100 What are the exceptions to group sizes and staff to child ratios?

(3) Excluding infants, you may place an individual child in a different age group and serve the child within the different age group's required staff to child ratio, based on the child's individual needs and developmental level. You must consult with the child's parent prior to making the change;

: Don't mean to be nosy. I just enjoy a bit of sleuthing.

[griffin2004]

Jeyer,
Sleuth away! I'm so crazy over this whole thing I'm not even sure of my own name. I had read those WACs, and my center is in the > 13 kids category so 388-295-2100 doesn't apply nor do some parts of WAC 388-295-2090.

Regarding WAC 388-295-2090, I'm not sure why paragraph 6 doesn't get me where I need to be since I'm completely willing to continue paying the Toddler price as long as she's in that room. I'll print that out and show it to the director. This is a good example as to why one should not act as one's own attorney; I read that WAC several times and somehow got it in my head that parag. 6 applied to the smaller centers.

As an aside, here is how Washington divides kids from 0-12 years old. Have you ever seen anything more absurd?
One month, through 11 months (infant)
Twelve months through 29 months (toddler)
Thirty months through 5 years (preschooler)
Five years through 12 years (school-age child)

Thanks for all your comments and support, friends. It means more to me than you know.

[jeyer]

Edited: Duh. I misread your "greater than" sign! Never was good at algebra...

But yes, even though your center has more than 12 kids, paragraph 6 should be the key for you.

Good luck on this. I totally sympathize with your frustration! And yes, I think Washington's system is over-simplified. I would think there needs to be another category between toddler and preschool.

[Geofizz]

Originally Posted by griffin2004

As an aside, here is how Washington divides kids from 0-12 years old. Have you ever seen anything more absurd?
One month, through 11 months (infant)
Twelve months through 29 months (toddler)
Thirty months through 5 years (preschooler)
Five years through 12 years (school-age child)

I don't think the state says that you have to put 30 month olds with 5 year olds, just that you can because the state-required ratios stay the same from 30 mo to 5 years.

I'm glad you're getting this sluthing done. I think a lot of times centers assume you won't look into stuff like this and just take the rules as they set them out.

Good luck with this, but it might also be time to call around to other centers....

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

I'm lost -- there are 18 kids aged 2.5 - 5 and the center is licensed for less than 13? Or is the infant/daycare part a separate license?

You, of course, know your child best. And if you truly think this isn't going to work, then you will need to find an alternative. Based on the legal stuff and the update, wouldn't a larger center (more than 13 kids) have more leeway? Might they at least have some narrower age brackets that are better suited for your child? At least that would be cheaper than a nanny.

That said, sometimes we short-change our child and underestimate their abilities. Before you change centers (which can be hard on a child, BTDT), is it worth a try on potty training? Would they accept "in process" and pull-ups? Of course, then you also have to evaluate whether she would be overwhelmed in the preschool room. I know that my DD, who will be 2.5 in July, will be transitioning from daycare to preschool on July 6 and she will be in a room with about 18 kids and 2 teachers. However, these kids are all 2-3, which could make a big difference. Anyway, the kids I've observed were doing really well. I'm not suggesting you should make your child fit the mold, but sometimes its worth taking a second look before making drastic changes.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[cyncyn]

I would call around to some more centers. Many places do offer the in-between age range rooms. Both of the centers I have used had age groupings between toddlers and preschool. It is definitely a cost thing, because the state ratios change at various ages. What ages are most of the 18 pre-schoolers? If they are on the younger side of the ratio it might not be a big transition for her.

That said though, I would NOT go back to a center after finding a wonderful home care provider. But I refused to even consider a home care provider until my so-called safe, regulated, monitored and trained-staff center had to fire a teacher for hitting a 2-year old!

[BrettsMama]

Definitely look for a center where the ages are divided up a bit better. My center is divided as follows. 0-14ish months (no set time) infants, 14ish months to 24 months Toddlers, 2-2.5(ish), 2.5-3y/o and 4/5 y/os. It's more transitions but I think it's ultimately better, developmentally.

[jeyer]

Originally Posted by cyncyn

That said though, I would NOT go back to a center after finding a wonderful home care provider. But I refused to even consider a home care provider until my so-called safe, regulated, monitored and trained-staff center had to fire a teacher for hitting a 2-year old!

I can relate. We left our top-rated, expensive day care for an in-home provider. The center's infant room was great, but the toddler room... ugh. There were too many toddlers for my liking, and the teachers were all so detached. When I heard one yell at a toddler, that was the last straw.

I had many misgivings about in-home providers (still do) but we happened to find a wonderful one. Now our dd is in a place where she is not only cared for, but loved. It's like family.